# Ageless 9 and 18 Radial



## rlo1

I am starting to build the Ageless 9 and 18 Cyl radial engines.  I want to work these in parallel since many of the operations are similar between the two.


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## rlo1

Next step - Punch some 2.5" holes in the center of the Round stock.


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## rlo1

Turning ODs and IDs on my Slant Pro


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## rlo1

Put the 770mx to work making the fron covers for both engines


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## rlo1

Finished the Turning work except for a recessed ID that I will have to do Manually


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## rlo1

So far so good, now to work on the Gcode/Cam work for the 4th axis work.


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## stevehuckss396

A lot of work but probably the best approach. I am also doing 2 at a time but only a pair of 9's.


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## Richard Hed

rlo1 said:


> I am starting to build the Ageless 9 and 18 Cyl radial engines.  I want to work these in parallel since many of the operations are similar between the two.
> 
> View attachment 123486


I am not familiar with Ageless.  Is it IC or steam?  It's good lookin'


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## rlo1

Richard Hed said:


> I am not familiar with Ageless.  Is it IC or steam?  It's good lookin'



Thank you!

Check out Ageless Engines
It has a lot of information on these engines.


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## rlo1

Made some progress this weekend and made a video of me running a cycle machining the flats on the crankcase.

https://youtu.be/782qzF6EGlc













Used a test block to dial in the settings for the thread milling. Took about 20 practice runs until the thread felt about right. I wrote a conversational gcode program to do all that machining at once at that 4th axis angle. All I need to do is to run it and rotate the 4th and repeat. Worked pretty well.  It took about an hour for the mill to run the program on each cycle.  I was not comfortable with editing the conversational gcode to add a "G0 A40" because the machine kept returning to A0 during the practice runs.  So just to be safe I am rotating and re-referencing the A axis before each cycle.


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## rlo1

Machined the intake manifold ports for the 18 cylinder crankcase. Whoever invented thread milling, thank you.


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## rlo1

Cut 29 cylinder blanks (9+18+2 spares). Working on the conversational program for the first operation.


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## rlo1

Spent the day setting up and running the 15L machining 30 cylinder blanks. This first op just profiles the lower 1/2 of the cylinder.


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## xpylonracer

rlo1 said:


> Made some progress this weekend and made a video of me running a cycle machining the flats on the crankcase.
> 
> https://youtu.be/782qzF6EGlc
> 
> 
> View attachment 123656
> 
> practice runs.  So just to be safe I am rotating and re-referencing the A axis before each cycle.



Great looking machine set-up but why don't you use a Face mill to machine the cylinder flat on the crankcase ? get rid of all those cutter marks and more likely leave a flatter surface.


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## rlo1

Great feedback, I am planning on brushing the aluminum which should remove any tooling marks.  I elected to use the same cutter for the cylinder hole and facing so that there is not a tool change.  In retrospec, you are right and I should have loaded up a face mill for the cylinder flats.


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## Gabe J DiMarino

Somebody likes jaw breakers...?


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## rlo1

Fireballs.....


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## Gabe J DiMarino

If I stick anything in mouth that big its a Jaw breaker . Nice work on the radial .What machines do you have?


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## Larry G.

xpylonracer said:


> Great looking machine set-up but why don't you use a Face mill to machine the cylinder flat on the crankcase ? get rid of all those cutter marks and more likely leave a flatter surface.


A small tramming error in the mill will translate to a large geometric error with a large diameter face mill.
The same error will translate into a potential sealing problem, but without the geometric error when a small diameter cutter is used.
Pick your poison.


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## rlo1

Gabe J DiMarino said:


> If I stick anything in mouth that big its a Jaw breaker . Nice work on the radial .What machines do you have?


LOL, thanks!  I own a Tormach 15L and 770MX.  I also have Grizzly 12x36 lathe and medium knee mill.  I have sherline machines too.


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## xpylonracer

Any tramming error will show up whatever size tool is used, I would say that Tormach is trammed exactly in all directions.


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## rlo1

Made a little progress on the cylinders - These cylinders sure do generate a lot of chips!


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## rlo1

Finishing up all the holes and threading on the crank cases, Here I am thread milling 6-32 front cover threads on the 18cyl front crankcase.


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## rlo1

Turned down the top end of the cylinders to final ODs.  Made a couple mistakes on the way, oh well I have more steel.......


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## Richard Hed

rlo1 said:


> Made a little progress on the cylinders - These cylinders sure do generate a lot of chips!
> View attachment 123891


Nice pile of chips, I have to dump my chips about once a week.


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## rlo1

Set up a little Gcode routine for my CNC Lathe. It 1st grooves the fins on the OD, 2nd it bores the ID and finally it hones the ID for a nice finish. Each cycle is 22 minutes. Only ruined one during setup so I have a few spares. I also trimmed the sharp edges on my Sherline lathe. My gun blue kit arrived today so I will be studying up for that process next.


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## Tim1974

Just a heads up I think you drilled the holes to soon ment to have heads on first ?


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## Tim1974

Ok so you see holes come later as to line up when head and head gasket are tight sorry to say it but I think you have made a big boo boo


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## R Degen

What kind of bluing did you use ?


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## kvom

If holes are accurate I don't see why fit will be a problem.  OTOH, drilling them before grooving would eliminate the inside burrs.


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## johnl

The cylinder heads are threaded on to the cylinders. To achieve the correct orientation when installed on the crankcase the holes must be drilled in the correct relationship to the intake and exhaust manifold mating surface. This must be done after the cylinder and head are assembled for the final time.


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## xpylonracer

I see the important point you are making but it will be possible to add a shim to or skim the head if necessary without too much change to critical dimensions/volumes.


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## R Degen

That is why there is a fixture in the plans to put the holes in after the head is screwed to the cylinder or the threads would have to be clocked or timed with the holes. Randy


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## Tim1974

R Degen said:


> What kind of bluing did you use ?


It’s a black oxide finish


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## rlo1

I believe you are all correct, thx for pointing it out. I may need to cut more cylinders if this turns into a bigger issue. For now I am moving forward with cylinder head work. I am thinking about some options that might allow use of the drilled cylinders. If I match them up at a certain point it may address this problem.


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## xpylonracer

After boring and threading the heads you can fit to the cylinder and mark the position of any important feature to align on final assembly,  You will need to identify each assembled cyl/head so they remain together.


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## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> I believe you are all correct, thx for pointing it out. I may need to cut more cylinders if this turns into a bigger issue. For now I am moving forward with cylinder head work. I am thinking about some options that might allow use of the drilled cylinders. If I match them up at a certain point it may address this problem.


If it were me, I'd pair them up as best I could so and then assemble them with a permanent grade threadlocker to seal the threads and hold the pair together in proper alignment. A downside might be removing the valves later if necessary for later maintenance. I think the stems are short enough to reinstall them after the heads are assembled, but I'm not positive. To make yourself feel a little better, you can make a fixture to pressure test the combination after assembly a lot quicker than re-machining all the cylinders especially if you've already honed them. The pressure test is a good idea in any event. I tested my head assemblies this way. - Terry


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## rlo1

I like the pressure test idea.  I also like the matchmaking idea for early on for the cylinder/heads.  I just ordered the head aluminum.  I think I will match them up early so they are matched sets.  I made a test block for the cylinder head threads.  It turned out pretty good with decent thread fit.


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## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> I like the pressure test idea.  I also like the matchmaking idea for early on for the cylinder/heads.  I just ordered the head aluminum.  I think I will match them up early so they are matched sets.  I made a test block for the cylinder head threads.  It turned out pretty good with decent thread fit.


Keep in mind that Ageless recommends torquing the heads to the cylinders really tight to prevent leaks. He doesn't recommend the use of Loctite with the recommended assembly order due to fears of it setting up too quickly under the heat of torque. But it may be your best alternative so long as you select the parts to mate without requiring a really stout torque and instead allow the Loctite to do the holding and sealing. - Terry


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## rlo1

Thank you Terry.  I like the pressure test idea to see how tight I need to torque the heads to eliminate leaks.  Once I get the internal valve seat machining done I may locktite everything together as you mentioned, the plans say not to locktite so thus I am still contemplating it .  I think I will mark them with match marks to ensure the marks line up and the torque is set.  I need to look up the torque recommendation.  I think it is called out as "as tight as possible" per the plans.  For now I ordered the copper pipe to make head gaskets and I need to fabricate a test rig for pressure testing.


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## rlo1

Still working through the cylinder head operations. I am clocking and matching heads to cylinders.


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## rlo1

Machined all five of the bronze bearings for both engines. Turned out very nice and I am really glad I kept hunk of bearing bronze from 15 years ago!  Expensive stuff.


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## rlo1

Cut the engine mounting ring for the engine stand for both engines. Will be firing up the TIG rig soon.


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## rlo1

More pictures


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## Tim1974

Very nice that’s a lot of work there


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## krw52

Looking good I have almost finished my 9 cylinder which has taken 5 years on and off and hopefully I will soon be running it up. I am currently also in the process of completing a hit and miss Rina engine which had been put on the back shelf whilst working on the Hodgson but is coming on nicely.


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## rlo1

Built the alignment fixtures for both engines crankshafts. Used a caswell cold bath black oxide process on the cylinders. It turned out to be pretty good and it was simple. You can see the untreated cylinder on the right.


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## rlo1

Been working on the cylinder head CAM programs. What you see here is the result of four operations totaling over seven hours of machine time per cylinder head. The machine work is only 75% complete as each head will need at least 3 more operations to finish. I expect another 3 hours of machining will be needed to complete the head. I need 27 good ones for both engines. Aluminum is getting expensive.....  lots of trial and error.... . I understand now why people have told me that the cylinder heads are the hardest part of the build.


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## kvom

With a 5-axis mill and tool changer, you'd knock those babies out quick.    

Lacking that it's a slog.  That groover is a tight fit.


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## Tim1974

Looking good what spark plugs did you opt for ?


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## rlo1

Rcexl 1/4-32 - They look somewhat scale.


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## stevehuckss396

I also went with 1/4-32 to keep from having to cut half of the head away to make room for the larger plugs.


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## rlo1

Machined the intake and exhaust manifold faces and thread milled the 6-32 hold down. 17 minutes per cycle. Working on my fixture for the valve seats. Will use the microarc 4th axis for both valve seats and finish work on the top of the head. Slow but steady.


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## rlo1

Machining the rocker box’s for the Cylinder heads. Op1 is about 20min per part and 30min for op2. I am going to make 60. 

Op1 cuts the underside of the part and cuts it out. It produces 2 parts per cycle.


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## rlo1

Making rocker box’s. Op2 is a 2hr cycle that does the finish work on the part and the fin grooving. It makes 4 parts per cycle.


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## rlo1

Machined the oil pump housings and sumps


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## rlo1

Turned the oil sump tubes and fit them up on both engines.  Will silver solder the oil tubes after I work on the crankcase surface finish by brushing the aluminum.


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## rlo1

Making a lot of crankshaft parts for both engines. Cutting 303 stainless steel for the shafts and carbon steel for the crankshaft cheeks.  Note the $23 Guering drill bit on the turret. It is impressive because it’ll drill a 3 inch deep hole (0.125) no problem in the stainless, it’s an amazing drillbit.  Note to self: Buy more endmills when not running aluminum!  Lol.


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## rlo1

Crankshaft is set in the alignment jig. It is ready for passageway drilling.


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## rlo1

Started making rocker arms. Need 54 of them!


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## rlo1

Machining the rear covers.


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## rlo1

Making impellers for the fuel intake.
Lots of scrap on the way. The last picture is for the 18 cylinder and it took me four tries before getting it right.


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## rlo1

18 cylinder airguide turned out well


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## rlo1

9 cylinder airguide


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## rlo1




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## rlo1

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## rlo1

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## Thommo

This engine will be absolutely beautiful when you have finished it rlo1. I can’t wait to see and hear her run!


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> View attachment 128133


That’s nice work! Job well done!  
Byron


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## rlo1

View attachment 128282





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The video is sped up!


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## rlo1

5sec time lapse video. Making master connecting rods. I need a better GoPro… My battery quit after 2hrs. This cycle is 5.5 hours. I like light cuts so the run times end up getting long on my gcode programs.  I have a wash down system to clean the machine. Takes about 2min to clean and flush the chips to the hopper. I will post pictures of the master rod after I finish it. It is a work in progress as I am having to spend more time designing and machining fixtures than actually making the part!  The final product is worth it.




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## stevehuckss396

I do the same thing. Light cuts makes my machine happy. Nice work!


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## rlo1

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Got my new Gropro! Finishing up the master connecting rods.


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## rlo1

Making rocker arms, a lot of rocker arms…. Lol


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## rlo1

Working on valve seats. Very difficult part of the build. I am glad that it’s over. Inserting those seats was very meticulous and time consuming. I will still have to lap every valve by hand to make sure that they seal properly.


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## rlo1

Made my first cam shaft today. It’s more of a cam ring. It took me a long time to CAD it up correctly. Only a couple days to machine it. But it was a very difficult part to CAD correctly.  This is the part that concerns me the most during the project with making accurately. And it turned out pretty well. I am very pleased.


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## Brian Lawrence

I too am doing the Ageless 9 cylinder as well and the feel the worst part for me is going to be making the Cam Ring (I guess) and was wondering if you would be willing to sell me one since you already have done most if not all of the work. My problem is that I do not have a CNC machine. I fell that doing one via a regular milling machine might destroy the complete engine. I am willing to pay for all Material, Time & Shipping and maybe a little extra if I can afford it.  Would you be willing to help me out?
Regards Brian


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## rlo1

No worries Brian.  Your timing is perfect.  I am currently setup to make another 9cyl cam ring.  Should have it done later today.  I will send a note with the part and you pay me what you think it is worth.  Send me a PM with your contact info. -Ron


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## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> View attachment 129583
> View attachment 129584
> 
> Working on valve seats. Very difficult part of the build. I am glad that it’s over. Inserting those seats was very meticulous and time consuming. I will still have to lap every valve by hand to make sure that they seal properly.


Those are some scary wide valve seats. Do you plan to cut your valves at a different angle to get a single line of contact? - Terry


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## rlo1

mayhugh1 said:


> Those are some scary wide valve seats. Do you plan to cut your valves at a different angle to get a single line of contact? - Terry


Seat work sucks.  It was very time consuming as I carefully inserted/set each seat to verify alignment with the valve guide. Each and every valve will be mated with its seat. First by lapping and then if necessary I will make a seat cutter.  My goal is the 50psi cylinder pressure that is called out in the drawings. I have been making valves on the cnc lathe. I test fit the valves as I set the seats. Drilling #58 holes in Stainless valve stems is not a lot of fun either!  I am enjoying the build though.


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## Brian Lawrence

I plan on just either using a 30° or a 45° angle I think using just a one line seat will just work fine. it works on my vintage Harleys. Try and also get a good strong spring as well.
Brian


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## rlo1

A feeling of satisfaction knowing that these cam rings turned out as well as they did. I chewed up an endmill on each one of those 4140 rings. I bought the plans 15years ago and had no clue how I was going to make these cams. I just knew that cutting them manually would be tough. I enjoy the CNC as it takes the hard part of machining and enables average machinists like me the ability to produce nice parts.


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## Steamchick

No shame in using the best machine you can access. The best jobs come from the best decisions. You made a good one there!
K2


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## Thommo

Hi RLO1. Just wondering what is with the colour scheme on your machine base?? Is that how it came or do you just like colourful machines


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## rlo1

Thommo said:


> Hi RLO1. Just wondering what is with the colour scheme on your machine base?? Is that how it came or do you just like colourful machines


 I am poking fun at my ocd every time when I look at it. I did have plans for patterns but after 20 fixture changes I gave up!


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## rlo1

This is how to spend a relaxing afternoon.





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## Steamchick

Hi Rio.
I got the "play bar" - but no link to a file to play...
I know that "watching paint dry" can be a relaxing way to do nothing, but watching a "play-bar" play nothing is less exciting. Please can you re-load the file link?
Cheers!
K2


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## rlo1

Steamchick said:


> Hi Rio.
> I got the "play bar" - but no link to a file to play...
> I know that "watching paint dry" can be a relaxing way to do nothing, but watching a "play-bar" play nothing is less exciting. Please can you re-load the file link?
> Cheers!
> K2


Sorry about that the file was too large to upload. I am attempting to correct it.


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## rlo1

Making lots of valves


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## rlo1

Well, I’ve been doing nothing but lapping valves and pressure testing cylinder heads. I have finished over 30 of them and they are all in good shape and ready to be installed. It was a lot of work and required many repeat testing and re-lapping to get the seal correct so that I will have good compression.




I used permatex lapping compound which has four layers of grit and it seem to work pretty good with the stainless valves and the brass seats. Sometimes I had to do it to maybe even three times to get a good seal. I would also at the very end use Brasso to polish the seats and give it a kind of a finished and it really did help on the pressure test.









Soaking in WD-40


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## rlo1

BTW I tested them at #140psi.




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## cwelkie

rlo1 said:


> I would also at the very end use Brasso to polish the seats


I too have had good success with Brasso as a polish on valve seats.  It made a significant difference on both aluminium and steel seats with stainless valves for me ... more than I'd expected.  So much so that if I can turn the valve guide and seat in the same setup, a polish with Brasso has provided a seal right away - no other lapping required. (There, I've now jinxed it!).

Great progress on your build.  I like seeing a CNC machine being used for these "one-off" projects rather than repetitive production.
Charlie


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## Tim1974

Can I ask how wide of a seat did you get ? I’ve just been through this process and yer what a pain I found it


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## mayhugh1

Rlo,
How was your pressure test run? Did you pressurize and then with a shut-off valve watch the cylinder leakdown time on a pressure meter? If so, what kind of leakdown times did you see? Also, did this test include the washers selected to correct the head orientations with respect to the block? - Terry


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## rlo1

Tim1974 said:


> Can I ask how wide of a seat did you get ? I’ve just been through this process and yer what a pain I found it


Seat width varied from a nice polished narrow ring to about 0.030 wide. It all depended on how square I installed the seat. Any variation was removed with the lapping.


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## rlo1

mayhugh1 said:


> Rlo,
> How was your pressure test run? Did you pressurize and then with a shut-off valve watch the cylinder leakdown time on a pressure meter? If so, what kind of leakdown times did you see? Also, did this test include the washers selected to correct the head orientations with respect to the block? - Terry


This test was just for valve seats. I am going to clock and locktite the cylinder heads to the cylinders during final assembly. 

The test was done using 140# compressed air. I had to use an O-ring inside the cylinder on the test block to get it to seal. I used the cordless drill with an adapter two spin every valve with the lapping compound in order to set the seat.  I would then inject brasso into the seat using a syringe and lap more and in both directions. There were times when I had to re-lap the valve about two or three times to get it to seat properly.  It would be obvious that the valve was leaking when you put that much air pressure on it because it just blew by like crazy. After lapping and cleaning (and installing a plug) I pressurized the head to 140#. You can tell by the leak rate reducing to a point where it would stop or just be were barely whispering. As you can see by the video that was one of the last ones I did and it sealed up pretty good.  I am glad I took the two weeks for this process.  I only did 2-3 at a time because of the tedious steps involved. I have 33 completed cylinder heads. I need only 27. They’ve all been tested. After I mate them to the cylinders they will become unique sets that I can interchange as necessary depending on their performance. -RonO


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## rlo1

I had an interesting experience during this lapping process. I used an ultrasonic cleaner with simple green to make sure that I broke down and removed all the lapping compound and Brasso from the valve area before pressure testing and final assembly.

If you leave aluminum in simple green that’s hot it will oxidize the aluminum and slowly turn it black. It takes about an hour but if you forget about your parts and you just leave them soaking not thinking that there’s any damage that can be done to come back and you find out that your cylinder heads are all black.

On a positive note it removed the surface tooling marks from the part  

Now that I have cylinder heads that are all different colors of grey I needed to get them back to normal aluminum. So I used some paint prep liquid from Eastwood to soak the cylinder heads and it quickly brightened them up and made them all the same color.
Lessons learned. -RonO


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## petertha

I discovered something similar using a few different 'green' degreasing product formulas, some even diluted with water. They started doing a matt etch on aluminum before I fished them out. Now I'm using a blue Loctite product that does not do this to aluminum, either straight or diluted in water.


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## rlo1

Anyone have suggestions on how to "Brad" the pins holding the crankshaft together??  Should I drive them in with Loctite?  Do I need to peen them?


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## Richard Hed

rlo1 said:


> Anyone have suggestions on how to "Brad" the pins holding the crankshaft together??  Should I drive them in with Loctite?  Do I need to peen them?


Can you show your parts?


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## rlo1

The interwebs are pretty worthless on this. I guess I will loctite and lightly set the taper pins with a punch. Peening will not work without causing other problems.


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## Steamchick

IMHO... and I am NOT expert, just remember something from 50+ years ago.... (Part-time apprentice work).
We drove tapered pins into the taper-reamed holes after cleaning with petrol or paraffin, so they were dry and grease free... NO LOCTITE - and "Yes, we did have it then"! The friction of the taper interference does it all. 
If you want a "pre-check", take some engineers' blue, dilute with a little light oil, then after it has sort of dried you can insert a pin and rotate a little to get the contact spots by transfer of the blue. You need transfer of blue at both the journal pin and the surrounding web, and more than 70% contact. Clean the blue/oil off before final assembly. It should be "lubricant free" when you drive the pin home, so you get the friction of "metal-to-metal" interference.
This was on larger stuff than your model... maybe 3/16" or 1/4" pins? So on your smaller crank it may be more difficult? 
I remember the "teacher" machinist using the lid of the Blue tin with just a drop of oil to wet his bruch then collect a wipe of blue on the brush and mix it on the lid - like a child would do with solid paints - to get the consistency he wanted. Then he would paint the inside of the hole - spinning the brush, insert the pin, a push and 1/4 turn and pull it out to see what the contact was like), paint the inside of the holes with diluted Blue (I use a child's paint-brush for lots of fiddly little jobs, but a taper of twisted tissue will suffice.
There may be something better than I remember... the "proper lads" will teach us all I'm sure!
Thanks for the question, I have never needed to know this until now, when you sparked fond memories of my teenage years.
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> IMHO... and I am NOT expert, just remember something from 50+ years ago.... (Part-time apprentice work).
> We drove tapered pins into the taper-reamed holes after cleaning with petrol or paraffin, so they were dry and grease free... NO LOCTITE - and "Yes, we did have it then"! The friction of the taper interference does it all.
> If you want a "pre-check", take some engineers' blue, dilute with a little light oil, then after it has sort of dried you can insert a pin and rotate a little to get the contact spots by transfer of the blue. You need transfer of blue at both the journal pin and the surrounding web, and more than 70% contact. Clean the blue/oil off before final assembly. It should be "lubricant free" when you drive the pin home, so you get the friction of "metal-to-metal" interference.
> This was on larger stuff than your model... maybe 3/16" or 1/4" pins? So on your smaller crank it may be more difficult?
> I remember the "teacher" machinist using the lid of the Blue tin with just a drop of oil to wet his bruch then collect a wipe of blue on the brush and mix it on the lid - like a child would do with solid paints - to get the consistency he wanted. Then he would paint the inside of the hole - spinning the brush, insert the pin, a push and 1/4 turn and pull it out to see what the contact was like), paint the inside of the holes with diluted Blue (I use a child's paint-brush for lots of fiddly little jobs, but a taper of twisted tissue will suffice.
> There may be something better than I remember... the "proper lads" will teach us all I'm sure!
> Thanks for the question, I have never needed to know this until now, when you sparked fond memories of my teenage years.
> K2


Well, I thimpfk that is a bit of bad luck -- that you were a teenager.  I skipt that phase.


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## Steamchick

Richard Hed said:


> Well, I thimpfk that is a bit of bad luck -- that you were a teenager.  I skipt that phase.


You missed all the fun of motorbikes (when you didn't appreciate speed limits), girls (when you appreciated changing limits), and somehow managed great times and lots of freedom of expression with "no limits and no money". - The best years before "jobs to pay for living", family and the ageing-body set limits...
Nostagia ain't what it used t'be!
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> You missed all the fun of motorbikes (when you didn't appreciate speed limits), girls (when you appreciated changing limits), and somehow managed great times and lots of freedom of expression with "no limits and no money". - The best years before "jobs to pay for living", family and the ageing-body set limits...
> Nostagia ain't what it used t'be!
> K2


I did all that _before_ I was a teeny.


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## Steamchick

So maybe you missed the happy days of child-play? Growing old too fast means something isn't appreciated along the way... I started work (Saturdays only) at 13, but didn't miss out on cycling, fishing, girls, music, modelling, family fun, (and even visiting scrapyards full of BR steam locos....), etc. because of work. It just gave me more money for the fun!
Tell us what you were doing? 
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> So maybe you missed the happy days of child-play? Growing old too fast means something isn't appreciated along the way... I started work (Saturdays only) at 13, but didn't miss out on cycling, fishing, girls, music, modelling, family fun, (and even visiting scrapyards full of BR steam locos....), etc. because of work. It just gave me more money for the fun!
> Tell us what you were doing?
> K2


I did all kinds of things to get a few extra $$.  Since I lived in the country on a farm, there were less jobs working for people, but I peeled cascara (a bark used for medicine), picked beer and pop bottles to resell, workt for neighbors and a few other things.  I didded all those things except for the scrap yard visits.  I visit them now and get some really good stuff very cheap.  There was hiking, biking, shriking, horse backing, camping, fishing and of course getting in to trouble.  

Funny thing isn't, is that my kids never bothered to go earn a few $$ for fun things to do.  Mom & pop paid for everythgng


----------



## rlo1

Machined the cam ring support bracket for the two engines. I did it with one piece of metal and one computer program on the CNC. It turned out pretty nice and 


worked out well.


----------



## cwelkie

Yes indeed - they did turn out well. Glad you are happy with the result (we can be our own worse critics).


----------



## rlo1

One of the more difficult tasks is the oil pump fabrication. 0.001” makes a huge difference on the gear mesh. Everything has to be pinned because the oiling system is so critical that if it fails your engine would probably seize within seconds.  I spent a lot of time getting it right. I forgot to take more pictures as I have the pumps installed on the bearings currently. I broke in the gear mesh with a cordless drill.


----------



## rlo1

Some updated pictures. Working on a lot of odds and ends. Fit the cam rings in both engines.


----------



## rlo1

I had a TKR last week and will be slowing down for a bit. Merry Christmas everyone and happy new year!


----------



## kvom

Good time to finish any cad-cam work needed


----------



## xpylonracer

Had mine 2004, best thing I ever did, amazed that I could get out of bed the day after the op and stand full weight bearing without any pain, first time for many years, I'm sure you will be up and about pretty quickly.

xpylonracer


----------



## rlo1

Back at it.   Knee feels good.  Searching for the correct Cast Iron for the rings.  From the plans:




 This is what is called out.

Suggestions?  I need 1 1/4" dia rod.  Thanks


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Back at it.   Knee feels good.  Searching for the correct Cast Iron for the rings.  From the plans:
> View attachment 134458
> 
> This is what is called out.
> 
> Suggestions?  I need 1 1/4" dia rod.  Thanks


I have the same plan set snd found the same contradiction. Seams to me I searched McMaster Carr snd found the right stuff. I may have called him too. He is fun to talk to have a full cup of coffees if you do. LOL  IT MAY BE WORTHWHILE SEEING IF YOU CAN PURCHASE RINGS THE RIGHTSIZE  SO FAR OTHER GUYS HAVE SAID THEY MADEVPLENTY EXTRA ONES . I had given thought to making stainless steel dyke rings like we use on the race car. But it means making a full set of custom pistons so an incredible amount of work  if they didn’t work out  one of the guys modified the crankshaft so it was similar to the full size so it could be disassembled easier making engine assembly and service much easier . I also thought about this too. As modelers we don’t have access to the tooling required but there are work around too I was going to key and slip fit it rather than press fit at assembly the full size had a big spline and a massive bolt that I YHINK a hydraulic torque tool was used for assembly and service. At at rate the crankshaft takes a lot of effort. 
byron


----------



## jquevedo

I built the 9 and a 5 cylinder one based on some of the early plans where I guess the 9 cylinder originated with many nice upgrades and a lot more of details, anyway 1 inch diameter, depending on the size of the grooves I may have some extra rings..
I used 3 rings per cylinder so that makes it about 30 of them..
If you have made the pistons already, let me know what size if rings are you looking for, I did not follow the plans to detail since there was a series of changes I wanted to make, but kept the 1 inch piston diameter.


----------



## rlo1

Thank you for the information everyone. I am setting up plans to cnc the rings. I am still planning on heat treating per the plans. Pictures to come.


----------



## Tim1974

The rings are easy but I would say do the heat treat in maybe a batch of 10 or so at a time I found when I did mine maybe I over cooked some ? But I had a few brittle ones that I broke in install so a small batch is no big deal if it gos wrong looking good though you will love it when she fires up


----------



## rlo1

I want to use an oven for the rings.  Anybody have suggestions for a small tabletop oven that can be set at 1000F??


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> I want to use an oven for the rings.  Anybody have suggestions for a small tabletop oven that can be set at 1000F??


you might look into induction heaters regulating exact temp might be difficult but I think there are set table or adjustable ones these can heat a rusty old nut in a few seconds  Amazon has a number listed 
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Ordered a jeweler kiln. Should work perfect for this application


----------



## paulc

I just posted this thread on how I made my piston rings,  using no heat or ovens, so with the absence of any heat treatment, you will have zero distortion.
I have not seen this method discussed before, take a look.  I certainly worked for me.




__





						How I made my piston rings.  No heat
					

G'day guys, I thought I would share my method of making piston rings,  I have not heard this technique discussed in any the forums,  but then again I don't get out much, so it very well may have been.  In 97' I designed and built my own 7 cylinder radial, the heads were inspired by the Hodgson...




					www.homemodelenginemachinist.com


----------



## simonbirt

rlo1 said:


> I want to use an oven for the rings.  Anybody have suggestions for a small tabletop oven that can be set at 1000F??


Hello,

I have a small oven which was made in Turkey 


			https://www.cooksongold.com/images-prod/855_1004_1.jpg
		


I imagine they are wildly available. It works really well and holds a steady temperature.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Years ago I bought a little paragon kiln. It has an electronic controller that held 1100 plus or minus 8 degrees for 3 hours. Says it can go to 2350F but I have never had it up to that.

You will want to soak those rings at 1100 for 3 hours


----------



## rlo1

Excellent info all!  Thank you


----------



## rlo1

Made a bunch of pistons. Step 1 was the blank





Step 2 was the inside of the piston




step 3 was the ring grooves




step 4 was the oil ring holes and the piston pin hole




next is parting and finishing.


----------



## rlo1

Started rings this weekend. 
step one was boring and od turning



Step two for the compression rings was parting.


----------



## rlo1

Also made the oil control rings.
Step one was the OD turning again

Step two was to drill all the oil ring holes. I used my micro arc 4th axis and a 0.03125 endmill to drill 240 holes in the tube. 







After the holes were finished I grooved and parted the rings using my 15L lathe.


----------



## rlo1

My parting blade setup on the 15L


----------



## rlo1

I used an alignment jig prior to the piston hole drilling


----------



## rlo1

Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## rlo1

Grooving and parting oil rings


----------



## Vietti

For what its worth, I hold the piston blank in a vertical square collet block in the vise, centered of course, once the internal machining is finished, lay the block down, rotate the block 90 degrees and drill the wrist pin hole, properly centered and square with the world.  Quick and works good.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Made a bunch of pistons. Step 1 was the blank
> View attachment 134809
> 
> Step 2 was the inside of the piston
> View attachment 134810
> 
> step 3 was the ring grooves
> View attachment 134811
> 
> step 4 was the oil ring holes and the piston pin hole
> View attachment 134812
> 
> next is parting and finishing.


Nice work!
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Trying to understand the plans for the method to what you’re supposed to Cleve the rings prior to heat treatment.  It does not make a lot of sense to me. The plans are not intuitive enough for me to figure out. Anybody have a good idea and the best method or technique to cleave these rings without destroying them?


----------



## rlo1




----------



## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> Nice work!
> Byron


piston weight probably doesn’t mean much here except there are a lot of them
I’ll see if my son can take pictures of a race car piston . A lot more is machined out of them but if you are doing these manually it would be a lot of work to lighten these pistons significantly  I don’t think it’s really necessary unless you want to run at high speeds .


rlo1 said:


> Trying to understand the plans for the method to what you’re supposed to Cleve the rings prior to heat treatment.  It does not make a lot of sense to me. The plans are not intuitive enough for me to figure out. Anybody have a good idea and the best method or technique to cleave these rings without destroying them?


well after breaking a lot of them in the race cars I YHINK the tiny scratch or grind mark is best. I break tungstens for TIG welding like this jus a nicknis all it takes a sharp edged back up block then equally sharp edge striking block right at the break line . A quick tap with hammer or striking object should pop throng easily . Mak a few experimental pieces first to get the process down. The gap is pretty smal as I recall . I suppose you could try a thin slitting saw but it might leave a rough cut areas.  I just go for it myself . I YHINK it might be harder to get the good rings on the pistons withou breaking too many. 
byron


----------



## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> piston weight probably doesn’t mean much here except there are a lot of them
> I’ll see if my son can take pictures of a race car piston . A lot more is machined out of them but if you are doing these manually it would be a lot of work to lighten these pistons significantly  I don’t think it’s really necessary unless you want to run at high speeds .
> well after breaking a lot of them in the race cars I YHINK the tiny scratch or grind mark is best. I break tungstens for TIG welding like this jus a nicknis all it takes a sharp edged back up block then equally sharp edge striking block right at the break line . A quick tap with hammer or striking object should pop throng easily . Mak a few experimental pieces first to get the process down. The gap is pretty smal as I recall . I suppose you could try a thin slitting saw but it might leave a rough cut areas.  I just go for it myself . I YHINK it might be harder to get the good rings on the pistons withou breaking too many.
> byron


I finally found my new 1/4 40 TPI ME tap and die. I was all set to order another set  i enemy had PMR esearch catalog out. I decided to make one more pas looking for it I don’t like doing this as it means moving things that are in logical positions but there it was in my steamer parts tray  Uber a small plastic bag.   Now where did I put it? I think back where I found it as I’m using the parts tray.”   Remind me when I’ve misplaced it again .
Byron


----------



## petertha

Not sure if Ageless is the Trimble method, but Terry did an extensive writeup on his 18-cyl build for reference.





						Another Radial - this time 18 Cylinders
					

Peter,        My goal was, as you said, to first get the all the cylinders to a consistent bore diameter. I had a lot of time invested in their external features that I didn't want to risk, but I knew I could eventually lap them all to a common diameter even though at the time I didn't know...




					www.homemodelenginemachinist.com


----------



## rlo1

Been learning a lot on how to make these rings. Missed the note about anti-seize between each ring before annealing. Ended up welding a bunch together. Oh well. Process is slow. Cut more rings and will be polishing and annealing this weekend.


----------



## rlo1

This little kiln works great!


----------



## rlo1

Finished rings that are ready for gapping.  They will get cleaned and polished after gaps are set


----------



## rlo1

Going to make a couple more batches of rings to have the spares……..Why? Because they are a pain to make!


----------



## rlo1

rlo1 said:


> Finished rings that are ready for gapping.  They will get cleaned and polished after gaps are setView attachment 135140
> View attachment 135141


Lots of WD40 to make sure they dont start oxidizing.


----------



## Tim1974

Nice work I remember I was dreading the rings but once I managed to find the right iron witch was not easy to get hear in Australia it really went very well ok I snapped a few and a few didn’t pass the light test but all in all not as hard as I was expecting


----------



## rlo1

Tim1974 said:


> Nice work I remember I was dreading the rings but once I managed to find the right iron witch was not easy to get hear in Australia it really went very well ok I snapped a few and a few didn’t pass the light test but all in all not as hard as I was expecting


"light test"???  please elaborate.  Thank you.


----------



## stevehuckss396

The light test is to install the ring in the cylinder and get it absolutely flat. Then shine a light up the cylinder and see if any light passes between the cylinder wall and the ring.


----------



## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> "light test"???  please elaborate.  Thank you.


See Post #287 here:  Ford 300 Inline Six


----------



## rlo1

stevehuckss396 said:


> The light test is to install the ring in the cylinder and get it absolutely flat. Then shine a light up the cylinder and see if any light passes between the cylinder wall and the ring.


Thank you!


----------



## rlo1

mayhugh1 said:


> See Post #287 here:  Ford 300 Inline Six


Great Thread!  Wish I had seen it last month.  I am going to use some of that information on my next batch of rings.  Thanks for the link!


----------



## rlo1

Well, I am breaking more rings than planned when trying to set them on the pistons.  I got one oil ring on and then broke 10 more.  Ugg.  I may have made the gray cast iron too brittle by over cooking them in the kiln.  I have tried several times.  I ordered some ductile cast iron as I read somewhere at some point that Ductile is better for rings than gray cast iron.  Machining cast iron is a mess.  This is a tough project and there are a lot of hurdles to overcome yet.


----------



## stevehuckss396

I think you got that backwards. Gray cast iron is better than ductile. 

1 - Did you drill the holes in the ring at even intervals all the way around or did you remember to not drill the 2 holes in the back, across from the gap.

2 - I noticed you grooved the outer diameter of the rings. I don't remember seeing that detail on the drawing. Could the loss of material in that area be causing a weak spot.

I'm curious because I have my rings machined and will be cooking them soon. I cook mine at 1100F for 3 hours. Not that big of a difference from what you did. I considered cutting a groove like yours in the control rings. I'm thinking the 2 extra holes would be a bigger problem than the groove if that is what you did. Again, just wondering.


----------



## rlo1

I Interpreted the drawing as having a center groove.




I heat treated 8hrs+ so I think I may have made them more brittle...  I set it and forget it.... Doh.

I did leave out the rear two holes in the rings, they always broke anyway.  I am going to try again with both materials and shorter annealing time.  This is a learning process and this part of the build is difficult for me.  I need to learn how metals react to different types of treatment if I am going to build more complex engines.


----------



## Vietti

How about making the groove a little shallower?  Holes a little smaller?  surprised to see a chamfer on ring edges.

Don't know if there is any advantage, but have seen some modelers cut narrow slots with a slitting saw instead of holes.  Have an English two cylinder that came with pre made rings, 1 1/2" bore.  Unfortunately I broke one of the oil rings and made one as you make yours.  That cylinder always had an oiling problem the other cylinder did not.  Don't know if it was due to the design or execution.


----------



## Tim1974

I think I had problems too and ended up leaving a extra hole out and that worked for me , o heated up with oxy to a cherry red held it for probably? 10 seconds then let cool on the jig o and mainly had the heat on the jig as to get the hole lot hot  , worked for me in the end but yes you will brake some o and biggest help is smallish batches of maybe 8 to 10 rings at a time incace it goes wrong


----------



## Bentwings

Tim1974 said:


> I think I had problems too and ended up leaving a extra hole out and that worked for me , o heated up with oxy to a cherry red held it for probably? 10 seconds then let cool on the jig o and mainly had the heat on the jig as to get the hole lot hot  , worked for me in the end but yes you will brake some o and biggest help is smallish batches of maybe 8 to 10 rings at a time incace it goes wrong


How aere you installing these using a sleeve?
On most of our auto race engines we wind them on high dome pistons still are an issue but most posts are now much closer to flat too so we just wind them on . Much bigger bor so les bending of course . We don’t make ours but they do brak but not often . Most are moly filled so I suppose there is a get treatment  most top rings are a variant of stainless. Top rings are chrome faced. Many are ring within a ring or hapless as it’s called one ring fits in the groove or counter bore of the top ring gaps are opposit another is the dyke ring which has counter bore depending on compression to force them to push against the cylinder wall harder.  Oil rings are built up of inner flexible spring with chrome faced stainless  some use a very thin wall sleeve to install but other just wind the rings on 
Byron


----------



## stevehuckss396

I will have to look at the drawings a little closer for that groove. I may have missed it. I suspect the 8 hour bake may be the problem causing the breakage. I made plenty of extras.  

Sounds like you are doing another batch. Try the grey iron again but only bake for 3 hours at 1100F. I got that from a very smart guy very well educated in metal treating.


----------



## Bentwings

stevehuckss396 said:


> I will have to look at the drawings a little closer for that groove. I may have missed it. I suspect the 8 hour bake may be the problem causing the breakage. I made plenty of extras.
> 
> Sounds like you are doing another batch. Try the grey iron again but only bake for 3 hours at 1100F. I got that from a very smart guy very well educated in metal treating.


In view of the fact that we use chrome faced stainless steel rings 
Could a stainless bar of round stock turned at th diameter needed or maybe a thou over size the go over it with a smooth roller like a hard smooth knurl roller an purposely work harden the surface squishing it down to finished diameter . You would need a carbide cutter to break through his to cut the ring off but you would have a hardened very smooth faced ring. Maybe have a single cylinder test enginge for testing this you could fit s Briggs with a cast liner then try his ring condition . Briggs probably already tried this years ago but it’s worth testing again. We use a smooth cross hatch finish on bores . Often just the abrasive ball brushes . We call themdingleberry hones  we use thes to finish cast cylinders too 
Byron


----------



## Tim1974

I installed them very gingerly with bum puckered and mouth just right lol and plenty of lube think a bit of Tung actions too yer there small and finicky but I am shore my fallers where down to pore heat treatment try and try agan and I got there think biggest thing for me was missing a extra hole


----------



## ninefinger

The first set of rings I ever tried making were (accidentally) from ductile cast iron.  Here is my experience from using that material.
It didn't work as intended as a piston ring as it hasn't got enough spring in it, and the act of spreading it to fit over the piston permanently deformed it even after setting it by heat treating.  
If you do use the ductile cast iron please let us know how it works out.
Mike


----------



## rlo1

Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up. 






Used this coating on the rings. Worked great!  Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com


----------



## rlo1

These are the rings after taking them off the heat treatment tool. These rings fit fine and did not break even though I fell asleep and heat treated for 6 hrs instead of 3!   I have not cleaned them yet in this picture. This residue cleaned up easily with soap and water. One trick I like to use is to scrub dirty parts like these rings in hand cleaner. I use a standard hand cleaner in my shop and it does help with small dirty parts like piston rings.  I will just lather up the parts in my hands with a glob of hand cleaner and it works great. Started a large batch of rings in hopes that I finally solved the problems I was having. Btw, this table top kiln is awesome!  




Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## R Degen

Something I always did when heat treating rings is to wrap them in tool wrap and paper inside the wrap the paper burns out the oxygen rings come out real clean .


----------



## rlo1

Hmmmm, I remember you mentioning that before.  I will do it on the next batch.  Thank you!


----------



## stevehuckss396

Problem with them is they don't break. They bend and deform. Once installed, if they were "over opened up"  they my have bent and no longer fit the bore because they may not be round any more. Also hopefully they didn't open further as that would increase wall pressure and my wear out prematurely and possibly damage the cylinder walls. 

Maybe give the gray iron one more try without taking a nap and see if you have better luck before you try the ductile rings. Not telling you what to do, just telling you what I would do.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up. View attachment 135436
> View attachment 135437
> Used this coating on the rings. Worked great!  Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com
> View attachment 135438
> View attachment 135439


Nice work ! 
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Here is the oil wiper cycle that I ran after drilling all the 0.0315 holes.




Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## rlo1

I am trying the paper wrap on this batch.


----------



## rlo1

Decided to stay with the ductile iron. I feel that it is better having something that’s more mallialable than something that is brittle. I am really afraid to have a chunk of a piston ring show up in my oil bath. Especially after the engine has some time on it. I think the more flexible the ring is is a safer option to go in the long run.  I tried 15 different variations on heat treating the gray iron. Every variation whether it was short heat treatment long heat treatment red hot instant cool slow cool. It did not matter. They all were brittle and too brittle to use on a 1 inch piston. I needed to keep the groove in the oil ring. I feel that the design was intended to have this ring function as a oil wiper ring like is used in today’s engines.  The groove really weakens the ring. I feel like the softer iron is a better option to use and keep the functionality of the oil wiper intact.  I did notice that the longer you heat soak the ductile iron the softer it got. So you have to find a balance between hardness of the ring and softness (mailability) of the iron so it’s not brittle.  This is quite the learning experience. I did not have any idea that I was gonna be spending this much time on little round metal rings.


----------



## stevehuckss396

I looked at the drawings again and didn't see a groove. Was it described in the machining steps but left out of the drawing for clarity? I see the hole and counter bore but not a groove. Can you post a pic of the part of the plans that shows the required groove?


----------



## R Degen

rio1 you have to use tool wrap which is .002 thick stainless steel you can get it in a roll or in a bag you place your parts inside the bag ,wrap the parts in paper place inside the stainless steel bag seal it up then place inside the furnace .


----------



## rlo1

stevehuckss396 said:


> I looked at the drawings again and didn't see a groove. Was it described in the machining steps but left out of the drawing for clarity? I see the hole and counter bore but not a groove. Can you post a pic of the part of the plans that shows the required groove?


Here is the operation Instructions from the plans




It clearly mentions a groove to help with engine lubrication (#4).  The drawings are tough to interpret as I think the designer has such a good 3D awareness and that is why he drew it that way.  These plans are not simple, you have to really pay attention to the details.  I sometimes will think about the next operation for days before I start setting it up.  My OCD comes in handy sometime.  I am convinced that the Author intentionally gives specifications once so that it is not obvious what the callout is or getting the dimensions correct.  You have to always look at the big picture on these drawings.  I have CAD'd nearly every part in Solidworks.  It is a really good way to soak in the design and the designers Intent.  Here is the drawing with more information.




The Groove on the drawing took me awhile to understand the geometry.  I like the groove design and thing that in the long run they will lubricate the cylinder walls nicely.

Here it is in SW





I liked the wrap of the rings idea for the kiln, I will wrap it with SS next time.  I am going to dig further on this Cast Iron Annealing issue as it seems that there are several techniques that people use.  I sure have put a lot of Iron through my Tormach 15L CNC lathe lately.  It is a battle to keep it lubricated and clean.  You cannot let these chips sit, it will rust together in a day or two.  I am using terry cloth to line the bottom of the lathe to help with filtering the coolant before it goes to the basket and makes cleanup so much better.  Makes a huge difference.

Getting close to starting final assembly of the drive train.  Everything fits up but now it is time to take it all apart and do it the final time.  I still have ignition systems to build and tons of other stuff.  Really enjoying this project.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Tried using ductile cast iron with much better results than standard gray cast iron. The ductile rings tolerate manipulation much better than the gray cast. I tried all different hardening techniques with the gray and it always turned out brittle. The ductile iron machines nicely but is a mess to clean up. View attachment 135436
> View attachment 135437
> Used this coating on the rings. Worked great!  Thanks for this forum where I read about it. This stuff is available at Brownnells.com
> View attachment 135438
> View attachment 135439


Nice work  automotive rings have been ductile iron for as long as I can remember  they began spray costing with moly in he 50’s  stainless and hard chrome came later. We use chromed stainless dyke rings now even double dyke top rings second rings have had various tapers built into them  oil rings are multi piece spacer and chrome faced stainless rings themselves they have not changed much . Diesels have their own rings sometime s 4 or more  they don’t wear out my one ton dusky has 450k on it doesn’t use oil or smoke it doesn’t blow black clouds like some do . 
I hope your radial works out well I like talking to hogson  he really knows his engines and he likes to talk about them when you call him . I wanted to do the 18 cylinder version but I just can’t be in the shop like I want to .  There have been some fits and starts of the R4360 but I have never seen or heard of a completed one . If you have countless hours to do itbinghinknitvwould be possible to build a double 18 cylinder but connecting them would be a project all in its own just as it was on the full sized one . Using larger versions ofvthe couplers I’m using would be possible but the more advanced gear coupler would be my choice . I used 4 of them in industry to couple four really big electric motors together for a steel wire drawing line . Surprising they worked out of the box quiet simple maintenance . I used race car metric timing belts too even race car pulleys they were bout 1/4 the cost of industrial cast iron ones and a bunch lighter I would not want to have to buy the electrical connection wire today .


----------



## Sprocket

I've used heavy duty aluminum foil over the paper. It won't melt at these temps and is cheaper (a lot) and easier to get than stainless foil.
Doug


----------



## stevehuckss396

Yes sir there it is. Notch is not the word I would have used for a groove. I will have to fix my rings before moving on with cracking and stress relief. To be honest I didn't understand what needed to be notched. The groove on the drawing looks much thinner than the dimensioned .025.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## rlo1

Full Disclosure, I made the compression rings 0.03125" and Oil wiper Rings 0.0625" thick with a 0.03125 groove.  The dimensions called out seemed very difficult on the tooling sizing and I wanted to use off the shelf grooving tools.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Full Disclosure, I made the compression rings 0.03125" and Oil wiper Rings 0.0625" thick with a 0.03125 groove.  The dimensions called out seemed very difficult on the tooling sizing and I wanted to use off the shelf grooving tools.


I think that’s wise choice I’d do the same 
I think the clearance is more important. 

In the race world we did some crazy things with pistons . Back then there were few coatings available pistons were of weld able aluminum so if we burned them I would weld up the burned areas and re cut grooves. To fit available rings. Sometimes a hard spot was created so the ring groove was not perfect I often just cut it for a different size some times cut wide enough for two rings. We had a sponsor so supplies were more or less unlimited. I made a fixture to hold the ring so I could cut it. Trepan I think it’s called now then made a matching piston groove now called dyke ring/ piston groove . Real dyke rings were chrome faced stainless steel . But badly burned pistons and ones that had been repaired several times were more or less expendable  a good hone job and you could get 2% leak down that was good enough for a “ grenade” win at all cost final run.  Often ended with a fire. I only got burned twice once required hospital .  We were “ invincible” then . Didn’t learn” fear” until packing M 14 around then memories of being  part of the “ goon squad” in hockey took over . Pay back was the name of the game. 
Byron


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Decided to stay with the ductile iron. I feel that it is better having something that’s more mallialable than something that is brittle. I am really afraid to have a chunk of a piston ring show up in my oil bath. Especially after the engine has some time on it. I think the more flexible the ring is is a safer option to go in the long run.  I tried 15 different variations on heat treating the gray iron. Every variation whether it was short heat treatment long heat treatment red hot instant cool slow cool. It did not matter. They all were brittle and too brittle to use on a 1 inch piston. I needed to keep the groove in the oil ring. I feel that the design was intended to have this ring function as a oil wiper ring like is used in today’s engines.  The groove really weakens the ring. I feel like the softer iron is a better option to use and keep the functionality of the oil wiper intact.  I did notice that the longer you heat soak the ductile iron the softer it got. So you have to find a balance between hardness of the ring and softness (mailability) of the iron so it’s not brittle.  This is quite the learning experience. I did not have any idea that I was gonna be spending this much time on little round metal rings.


I agree we have used ductile second rings in the racers for as long as I can remember. Yes I’ve seen a few in the oil pan along with much ofvthe burned piston it makes a big mess. 
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Decided to make rocker covers. Added some grooves for curb appeal  Three at a time.  The grooves are 0.03125 wide and take quite a bit of time to machine due to how fragile the end mills that size are.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Decided to make rocker covers. Added some grooves for curb appeal  Three at a time.  The grooves are 0.03125 wide and take quite a bit of time to machine due to how fragile the end mills that size are.View attachment 135845
> View attachment 135846


Very very nice! 
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Machining the backside relief that will allow the rocker arm to fully cycle. Doing a three at a time it was easiest just to make a jig to hold the work


----------



## rlo1

Annealing brass tubing for the intake manifolds.


----------



## rlo1

Fabricated the doublers for the intake manifolds that will be folded over later and brazed to the pipe.


----------



## rlo1

Spent a lot of time aligning and clocking the cylinder heads to the cylinders. I am all prepared to start loctiting them together. I need 27 assemblies. And I have 30.


----------



## ShopShoe

OT  Follows - Attempt at cheap humor:

Your last photo above shows what appears to be an alien army massing to attack, perhaps Dr. Who is nearby....

--

Actually, congratulations on coming this far. I am following along with the build.

--ShopShoe


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> View attachment 136209
> View attachment 136210
> View attachment 136211
> 
> Annealing brass tubing for the intake manifolds.


if you are going to bend this stuff I suggest you get some low melting point “cero bend metal to fill the tubes it melts just above room temp looks like solder but pours like water . It will kinking to a minimum it’s a bismuth alloy there are several melting point levels  you can get mc master Carr has it. 
Byron


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## rlo1

I picked some of the filler from Micromark.  Still figuring out how to use the stuff.  Expensive too.


----------



## Vietti

For low temp alloy, Woods Metal, try Rotometals.  $9 a pound

John


----------



## rlo1

$15.59 per pound now...  If you wanna play, you gotta pay!  Thanks for the link.  I did order some more so I have plenty.


----------



## Vietti

Their site is hard to navigate.  They have various melting temperature alloys, hard to find though.

They have 117, 154, 203, 208 degree metal, the lower the melting temp the higher the price.  I think the $9 stuff was 203 degree.  Search under low melting point metal.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> I picked some of the filler from Micromark.  Still figuring out how to use the stuff.  Expensive too.


I forgot to note it’s expensive per volume.
I made a tight fitting aluminum foil plug, then filled the length of tube.  I had made a very tight bender  using grooved rollers for the bending surfaces. Stainless steel took a lot of force fore small diameter but it worked very well. Just dig the foil out and gently heat with small soldering torch . Drop the cero bend  into cold water . Then you can remedy it with hot water or the little torch . Just make the tubes a bit over length . I’m going to make intake and exhaust headers for my steamer . I’ll have to make a new bender. I had an inside radius that formed the actual bend. The outside roller just rolled the tubing around the inside roller . The cero bend forms a solid bar that doesn’t really stretch much. Sometimes it actually cracks if the bend is tight but that doesn’t ent seem to affect the bend. Be sure you get the final part hot enough that no cero bend is stuck to the inside of the tube 
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Bentwings said:


> I forgot to note it’s expensive per volume.
> I made a tight fitting aluminum foil plug, then filled the length of tube.  I had made a very tight bender  using grooved rollers for the bending surfaces. Stainless steel took a lot of force fore small diameter but it worked very well. Just dig the foil out and gently heat with small soldering torch . Drop the cero bend  into cold water . Then you can remedy it with hot water or the little torch . Just make the tubes a bit over length . I’m going to make intake and exhaust headers for my steamer . I’ll have to make a new bender. I had an inside radius that formed the actual bend. The outside roller just rolled the tubing around the inside roller . The cero bend forms a solid bar that doesn’t really stretch much. Sometimes it actually cracks if the bend is tight but that doesn’t ent seem to affect the bend. Be sure you get the final part hot enough that no cero bend is stuck to the inside of the tube
> Byron


Do you end up reusing the bismuth metal? Or is that a one time only use material?  In other words do you collect and reuse it after you flow it out of the tube?  Thank you


----------



## stevehuckss396

Collect it and reuse it.

If you use a thicker wall tube chances are you won't need to fill the tube. I used 5/16 x 1/4 (1/32 wall) which is double the wall thickness as the k&s telescoping tube and I had no trouble with kinking.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Do you end up reusing the bismuth metal? Or is that a one time only use material?  In other words do you collect and reuse it after you flow it out of the tube?  Thnk you


ii am a cheap skate so I collect it and reuse it when needed. Be sure to get it all out so it doesn’t get into solder or braze joints


----------



## rlo1

After realizing that I had fabricated most of the parts for the rotating assembly of the engines that I should probably consider start assembling them. So the first task after reading the assembly instructions is two install all the 440 studs for the cylinder hold downs. I installed 216 set screw studs in the engines using Loctite. Each stud was about a 1/16th of an inch too long and I had to trim all the studs down by about a 1/16th of an inch by using my cordless drill and chucking them on an Allen wrench and spitting them in my belt sander to taper the tip. 216 times. My hands are sore after setting all the studs.  This project would’ve been incredibly tough had I had to use hand taps for all the thread work. Thank goodness for CNC thread Milling.  You truly gotta give the older guys a lot of credit for what they were able to accomplish with hand tools.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> After realizing that I had fabricated most of the parts for the rotating assembly of the engines that I should probably consider start assembling them. So the first task after reading the assembly instructions is two install all the 440 studs for the cylinder hold downs. I installed 216 set screw studs in the engines using Loctite. Each stud was about a 1/16th of an inch too long and I had to trim all the studs down by about a 1/16th of an inch by using my cordless drill and chucking them on an Allen wrench and spitting them in my belt sander to taper the tip. 216 times. My hands are sore after setting all the studs.  This project would’ve been incredibly tough had I had to use hand taps for all the thread work. Thank goodness for CNC thread Milling.  You truly gotta give the older guys a lot of credit for what they were able to accomplish with hand tools.
> View attachment 136439
> 
> View attachment 136440


A while back one of the members here was about as far as you are. Very nice work by the way. He was about to start to assemble but saw that once the crank is in it’s really hard to disassemble if it’s pinned I think he re designed the crank so it could be slip fit assembled as the build continued.  I have only the plan set but I could see where this could be an issue. The original P&W had a special spline joining the crank parts. It had a massive bolt that took a big big torque wrench to tighten . Or remove.  I can’t remember the name ofvthe guy. Tom something maybe maker . He had a web site  that he showed progress. Also did considerable cnc work on the engine.  You probably can see the issue if ou have the crank pieces in hand.  I was just going to start this project when I ended up in the hospital . Since I realy am not in a good position to be of great help I can only offer what I thought of at the time my thought was to either get a splined shaft from grob  machine then have a mating spline wire edm in the counter weight where the master rod  pin is . If you have a shaper you could probably cut the internal spline . Extreme patience you might be able to do it on the mill with a rotary table or indexer. I had considered making a special bushing and using a standard jetway broach here. I had only guessed at this so don’t quote me. If the crank is slip fit it needs registration so it is perfectly aligned . The square tool bit will work however check it for size and squareness. They are not always perfect . It’s been a while since I looked at the drawings so I’m just going off un proven thoughts. From the looks of your work I YHINK you will have no issue looking at this issue and coming up with a solution . The book on the 4360 engine has a couple pictures that might be worth the cost of the book  I’ve only seen one good picture of the 18 cylinder crank . The 4360 had very complicated balancing system but as a model I don’t think it’s necessary .  It might be worth a call to hogson himself to talk about this. He is fun to chat with . He knows his engines inside and out .
I also looked at a two piece master rod but there just is not enough meat there for good bolting. Also looked at making the master rod a bit wider for the two piece construction. There still is not much room to make things bigger. . I’m looking forward to your further progress. There is a gear machined on the crank that I YHINK drives the oil pump or distributor . I did a little searching and it’s possible to purchase an end mill to cut this . The gentleman I noted ground his own just for this. I think the standard gear cutter will cut notches in the counter weight but I don’t think that will hurt anything . 

Byron


----------



## rlo1

Have assembled the engine cores. Everything is going together very well. Using assembly lube as I go. Crank is pinned and loctiting. Distributor driveshaft and drive gear and impeller on the nine cylinder is assembled.  I have to wait to install the cam gears until after all the cylinders are installed. I’m gonna set up the cam timing last. My next step is to set up a break in station with full oil oiling system to motor the engines slowly and break them in.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Have assembled the engine cores. Everything is going together very well. Using assembly lube as I go. Crank is pinned and loctiting. Distributor driveshaft and drive gear and impeller on the nine cylinder is assembled.  I have to wait to install the cam gears until after all the cylinders are installed. I’m gonna set up the cam timing last. My next step is to set up a break in station with full oil oiling system to motor the engines slowly and break them in.
> 
> View attachment 136809
> View attachment 136810
> View attachment 136811
> View attachment 136812
> View attachment 136813
> View attachment 136814
> View attachment 136815
> View attachment 136816


I’m green with envy. Nice wok ! 
Our race cars use a semi dri sump oil system there is a returned oil tank that is initially filled with about 3/4 ofvthe oil the engine will circulate during a run . There are two oil pumps or a split oil pump. One pump picks up oil from the pan and returns it to the tank. The other oil pump is the main pressure pump . It draws from the bottom of the tank and offers full oil pressure as soon as the engine is started . There is an initial spin of the engine to prime the pumps. Then the engine is started, so there is immediate and continuing full oil pressure as the engine is running. A real dry dump tank will have a separator section that forces the air out of the returning oil . Simply placing the return line dump so it blows onto the side wall of the tank is enough for top fuel engines . By the end of a run the tank will be nearly full of artistes oil. Given the few minutes to get back to the pits the oil has settled so it it looked like tan vomit when drained. . I’m not sure how the real r 2800 oil system worked but my father in law said that they used nearly all of the oil on each mission he said oil was as critical as fuel .  I YHINK for a model a simple tank and pump system would be fine for bench running from what I’ve heard these engines don’t use a lot of oil . Anyway something to consider. You seem to have a good handle on running your engine it doe have a built in dump so an external oil pump and a return system should not be too hard to add.


----------



## rlo1

I tried using two cheap 12v windshield washer pumps as oil priming pumps in series.  My pwr supply is 24v.  Works great for about 2 min.....  then I let the smoke out out of the motors... LOL.  They burned up quick trying to pump 0w-20 oil...  I located a better option for small gear pump.  Waiting for the mailman.... Again.  Live and learn.


----------



## rlo1

Broke my first 4-40 tap in the 9cyl front cover.  Was able to clear and re-tap.  I thread milled 95% of the 4-40s on this project (several 100's of holes) and never broke anything in the hole.  I tap 12 4-40 threads and break a tap...  I did not know how to thread mill before when I made this part at the beginning of the project.  I very much dislike hand taps....   Rant over.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> I tried using two cheap 12v windshield washer pumps as oil priming pumps in series.  My pwr supply is 24v.  Works great for about 2 min.....  then I let the smoke out out of the motors... LOL.  They burned up quick trying to pump 0w-20 oil...  I located a better option for small gear pump.  Waiting for the mailman.... Again.  Live and learn.


I was goingvto suggest a small gear pump. You get really fancy an build one based on the race pumps. Driving it might take some creativity . In your case an external drive would be ok I think.


----------



## minh-thanh

rlo1 said:


> Have assembled the engine cores. Everything is going together very well. Using assembly lube as I go. Crank is pinned and loctiting. Distributor driveshaft and drive gear and impeller on the nine cylinder is assembled.  I have to wait to install the cam gears until after all the cylinders are installed. I’m gonna set up the cam timing last. My next step is to set up a break in station with full oil oiling system to motor the engines slowly and break them in.
> 
> View attachment 136809
> View attachment 136810
> View attachment 136811
> View attachment 136812
> View attachment 136813
> View attachment 136814
> View attachment 136815
> View attachment 136816



Look Great !


----------



## theo van der linden

very very nice!!! were can i find the plans of it ??


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## rlo1

theo van der linden said:


> very very nice!!! were can i find the plans of it ??







__





						Ageless Engines
					





					agelessengines.com


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## rlo1

Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## rlo1

Installing the 27 cylinders on the two crankcases. It takes me about an hour or more to install each one. They are held on with 216 3/16” 4-40 brass nuts.  Using 3/16 micro wrench’s is very challenging at times but I am pushing through the hand cramps.  I am having to hand fit each part of the piston/rings/cylinder assembly. My mini sherline lathe sure comes in handy for trimming pistons trying to get a good fit. After installation of each cylinder I motor the engine with the steppers to start breaking in the rings. Taking a break and resting my sore hands tonight  - 15 of 27 cylinders are complete.


----------



## xpylonracer

Great progress but did you consider using steel nuts for greater security ?


----------



## rlo1

Hi Pylon, Thought a lot about the cylinder fasteners.  I did not want to use Loctite so it is not too difficult to swap cylinders.  Not a fan of steel on steel without thread locker or lock washers.  I decided against the lock washers.  I think that if I use steel, the nuts will start coming off with vibration.  The brass is softer and tends to snug and bite better when tightening.  It is very difficult to tighten these nuts and get an even torque.  Steel is stronger but I think the brass will stay in place and provide plenty of security.  Time will tell.


----------



## Bentwings

xpylonracer said:


> Great progress but did you consider using steel nuts for greater security ?


I purchased an electric screw driver with 1/4” hex drive it allows using many smaller hex drive things every screwdriver even some small sockets   It rotates atvtge push of a button and gas reverse ball end Allen drivers of several lengths . I got it on Amazon just make sure it’s 1/4” hex drive I got two different nes that hav something around 3/1 drive that don’t fit anything I have . I wrote a discouraging review on one of them and received a new version  at no charge.  I doesn’t have a lot of torque or speed but you can give a twist to lock the fastener untill you get a better wrench .

Byron


----------



## rlo1




----------



## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> View attachment 137374





rlo1 said:


> Installing the 27 cylinders on the two crankcases. It takes me about an hour or more to install each one. They are held on with 216 3/16” 4-40 brass nuts.  Using 3/16 micro wrench’s is very challenging at times but I am pushing through the hand cramps.  I am having to hand fit each part of the piston/rings/cylinder assembly. My mini sherline lathe sure comes in handy for trimming pistons trying to get a good fit. After installation of each cylinder I motor the engine with the steppers to start breaking in the rings. Taking a break and resting my sore hands tonight  - 15 of 27 cylinders are complete.
> View attachment 137331
> View attachment 137332
> View attachment 137333


I appreciate what you say about the difficulty involved with tightening the nuts on the 18  
cylinder block. When I built mine I first made a set of custom wrenches designed especially for them. They've come in useful during a few other builds - Terry


----------



## rlo1

mayhugh1 said:


> I appreciate what you say about the difficulty involved with tightening the nuts on the 18
> cylinder block. When I built mine I first made a set of custom wrenches designed especially for them. They've come in useful during a few other builds - Terry
> View attachment 137376


Very nice!  I like the knurled knobs.  Did you make the crows feet by hand or are they stamped?  Those wrenches look great.


----------



## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> Very nice!  I like the knurled knobs.  Did you make the crows feet by hand or are they stamped?  Those wrenches look great.


The feet were machined from steel plate. - Terry


----------



## Sprocket

Any thoughts on measuring torque in these small sizes or is it TFAR?
(That feels about right)
Doug


----------



## rlo1

In the Navy we used to torque large fasteners using the "star" method.........  You pull on the wrench until you see stars. LOL.  I am going with the snug feel method on these guys after I make some wrenches.


----------



## stevehuckss396

The wrench is in the drawings somewhere. I remember seeing it.


----------



## Bentwings

mayhugh1 said:


> I appreciate what you say about the difficulty involved with tightening the nuts on the 18
> cylinder block. When I built mine I first made a set of custom wrenches designed especially for them. They've come in useful during a few other builds - Terry
> View attachment 137376


That’s pretty innovative.  I have a set of micro combination wrenches that I use on my steamer . Eventually I’ll build a mini toolbox to hold them , more for looks than utility . My little electric pencil size 1/4” hex drive screw driver is perfect for my project I get special attachments as I need so it’s pretty universal . I have my “ universal” tool box on the table that has the current tools being used. You eventually know where each tool is so they are handy  no need for 10 grand tool box  slide around on the table works fine .
Byron


----------



## rlo1

Finished breaking in all the cylinders. Remove the engines from the test stands and cleaned them up. Installed the intake impeller on the 18 (the 9 impeller is already installed) and the camshafts on both engines. They are back on the break in stands.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> LOL, thanks!  I own a Tormach 15L and 770MX.  I also have Grizzly 12x36 lathe and medium knee mill.  I have sherline machines too.


I like your work.

how much oil pressure do you have?

I may have noted earlier. Our top fuel engines use a semi dry dump oil system. I say “ semi” asthey have quite a large main pump that drawsfrom a tank ther is a scavenge pump but much smaller. Probably backwards of road race or performance cars. The scavenge pump does pick up oil from the pan but it only sprays against a sidecwall ofvthe tank so air is still part of the return. There realy is not much effort in providing for air separation as it isn’t needed. The oil is changed after every run then the tank is filled with about 3/4 ofvthe total volume the balance goes into the pan. More or less to keep the pump system primed snd lubricated ther is about 10-12 quarts in the tank and 3-4 in the pan oil pressure can get to 200psi. The runs only last about 3 seconds at full throttle then it takes 30 to 60 seconds to shut down at the end ofvthe race during that time most of the rest of the oil is returned to the tank . By the time the car gets back to the pits to drain the oil a good share of the air is already out as.is. So there isn’t much of an air separator. You could probably use the same type of system . As I recall there is a built in oil pump that you could possibly add a second stage. Then just have a bench or stand mounted oil tank. Maybe a couple quarts capacity . 
my father in law flew corsairs in the war and he said the oil tanks would be almost empty after a mission so the full size used a huge amount of oil.  I think they were about 50 gallons .  No wonder there was oil all over the lanes . They probably leaked as much as they burned . LOL  CORSAIRS DIDNT HAVE ACREAL FLOOR IN THE COCKPIT SO HE said there
 WAS ALWAYS OIL IN THE BELLY OF THE PLANE .


----------



## rlo1

Thank you

Both Oil pumps are drawing well from the supply ports.  I am going to build a external oiling system that will ensure that these supply oil pumps stay fed.  I need to have a leak free system....  It is an oily engine.... LOL


----------



## Bentwings

stevehuckss396 said:


> A lot of work but probably the best approach. I am also doing 2 at a time but only a pair of 9's.


Looking good! 
I I think you are on  the right track with a tank supplied oil system.  As with our race cars you probably don’t need a full so called dry dump jus a positive supply pressure and s scavenge  pump to keep the sump at some level. You are not flying and doing aerobatics. I can’t remember if the bottom cyl had oil drain provision but turning the engine backward a few revs should drain oil from the bottom cyl . Something I’d check for real as you assemble you nice engine  even the big ones were turned over a few times to clear cylinders  seems my FIL said something about counting blades before starting  it would be bad to bend a rod with a hydraulic Ed cylinder. Even our racers get turned over backwards to purge fuel from cylinders .  I haven’t seen many of the Rc model radials fly but I know they are pretty careful with the Moki radials. They are 5 to 7 grand so I don’t think it would be cheap to have repairs . Bad enough if you crash one . Th impeller on the back gives the gas a good mixing especially if you feed the gas into the impeller. It would be interesting to hook a wide band O2 sensor to get some idea of fuel mixture.


----------



## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> Looking good!
> I I think you are on  the right track with a tank supplied oil system.  As with our race cars you probably don’t need a full so called dry dump jus a positive supply pressure and s scavenge  pump to keep the sump at some level. You are not flying and doing aerobatics. I can’t remember if the bottom cyl had oil drain provision but turning the engine backward a few revs should drain oil from the bottom cyl . Something I’d check for real as you assemble you nice engine  even the big ones were turned over a few times to clear cylinders  seems my FIL said something about counting blades before starting  it would be bad to bend a rod with a hydraulic Ed cylinder. Even our racers get turned over backwards to purge fuel from cylinders .  I haven’t seen many of the Rc model radials fly but I know they are pretty careful with the Moki radials. They are 5 to 7 grand so I don’t think it would be cheap to have repairs . Bad enough if you crash one . Th impeller on the back gives the gas a good mixing especially if you feed the gas into the impeller. It would be interesting to hook a wide band O2 sensor to get some idea of fuel mixture.


As for oil lines check speedway motors or summit racing. They both have AN FITTINGS AND LINES SN 3-4 are Prakrit line sizes . You probably don’t need the super high pressure stuff. There are push on braided lines  tag would look ver nice on you enging.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> I am starting to build the Ageless 9 and 18 Cyl radial engines.  I want to work these in parallel since many of the operations are similar between the two.
> 
> View attachment 123486


That would be absolutely cool to have two of these with black 3 blade props running on a test stand.  You will be getting close to drag race operations you might need a crew maybe even a goose neck trailer and a one ton dual Ky truck  trailers are called “ toy haulers”  they have a garage in the rear. Usually 3 or more slide outs. You could have a complete shop in the garage area.


----------



## mayhugh1

rlo1 said:


> Thank you
> 
> Both Oil pumps are drawing well from the supply ports.  I am going to build a external oiling system that will ensure that these supply oil pumps stay fed.  I need to have a leak free system....  It is an oily engine.... LOL


rlo,
My (and other's) experiences with the oiling system in these engines is that the scavenger pump although larger can't keep up with the pressure pump and after several seconds into a run the sump is full of oil and the engine is smoking like crazy. The solution offered by Ageless, and it works well, is to add a drip feed valve between the tank and the line going to the pressure pump in order to choke off the oil supply. You'll find it can be pretty severely choked. It's also a convenient OFF valve to minimize oil leaking into the lower cylinders while the engine is stored. Like you, I don't like oily engines, but without pushrod tubes you're going to get oil sprayed over the engine during running - especially from the lower cylinders. I've given my radials a pass when it comes to leaks. It's a part of their character which like the smokey startups you soon learn to love. You might also consider an oil tank baffle to remove the air from the returned oil. It's pretty frothy although with the drip feed will provide a bit of time for the air to settle out inside an un-baffled tank. - Terry


----------



## rlo1

Bentwings said:


> As for oil lines check speedway motors or summit racing. They both have AN FITTINGS AND LINES SN 3-4 are Prakrit line sizes . You probably don’t need the super high pressure stuff. There are push on braided lines  tag would look ver nice on you enging.


I hit up SummitRacing last month for some AN3 stuff.  great minds think alike!


----------



## rlo1

mayhugh1 said:


> rlo,
> My (and other's) experiences with the oiling system in these engines is that the scavenger pump although larger can't keep up with the pressure pump and after several seconds into a run the sump is full of oil and the engine is smoking like crazy. The solution offered by Ageless, and it works well, is to add a drip feed valve between the tank and the line going to the pressure pump in order to choke off the oil supply. You'll find it can be pretty severely choked. It's also a convenient OFF valve to minimize oil leaking into the lower cylinders while the engine is stored. Like you, I don't like oily engines, but without pushrod tubes you're going to get oil sprayed over the engine during running - especially from the lower cylinders. I've given my radials a pass when it comes to leaks. It's a part of their character which like the smokey startups you soon learn to love. You might also consider an oil tank baffle to remove the air from the returned oil. It's pretty frothy although with the drip feed there will be plenty of time for the air to settle out inside an un-baffled tank. - Terry


Tubes would look good on this. Thank you for the heads up on the frothing issue. -RonO


----------



## Bentwings

xpylonracer said:


> Any tramming error will show up whatever size tool is used, I would say that Tormach is trammed exactly in all directions.


as far as the oiling system goes I’d have to dig out my drawing set I don’t remember the thread or opening sizes . The scavenge pump needs to be quite a bit larger as the oil is aerated rather than liquid. You also need an unrestricted air intske.  I woul surely look at AN  fittings as the braided hose looks nice and you can get red blue clear or black aluminum fittings unless abused these don’t leak you could even get ones that have o ring seals  these are what we use on the racers. The hose is quite flexible even in the smaller sizes you cn get push lock fittings so hose assembly is quick and easy  I’d think a #6 would be ok for return line and 3 or 4 for feed lines bush rod tubes would save a big mess  LOL


----------



## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> as far as the oiling system goes I’d have to dig out my drawing set I don’t remember the thread or opening sizes . The scavenge pump needs to be quite a bit larger as the oil is aerated rather than liquid. You also need an unrestricted air intske.  I woul surely look at AN  fittings as the braided hose looks nice and you can get red blue clear or black aluminum fittings unless abused these don’t leak you could even get ones that have o ring seals  these are what we use on the racers. The hose is quite flexible even in the smaller sizes you cn get push lock fittings so hose assembly is quick and easy  I’d think a #6 would be ok for return line and 3 or 4 for feed lines bush rod tubes would save a big mess  LOL


If you want to see how modern cars that used dry dump you may want to look up the system used on corvette and some Camarillo cars . It’s kinda intimidating . . Generally a round tank wig internal-baffles and drain holes will strip the oil and air. Our race tanks are pretty simple as there isn’t a need for constant circulating oil the tank is just a large reservoir then a place to pump the aerated oil so it can be drained in a few seconds. This is 70 weight oil full of nitro so a pretty big mess. Certainly not very green however used oil is placed in drums and allowed to settle then sent to recycling center. The nitro will settle out but usually not reused . As it still has oil in it.  Somewhere I recall that castor oil is stil used in model engines it will definitely be a good mess it doesn’t wash off easily and leaves a brown sticky mess around exhaust.  Many years ago mode glow fuel had lots of castor oil it smelled ice but was really hard to clean up  I have a single quart of it I YHINK use in the freezer for some forgotten test I was going to do . 
Anyway good luck on your oil systems . 

Byron


----------



## rlo1

Question....  Float carbs or venturi carbs???  I hope this does not stir the pot.... lol


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Question....  Float carbs or venturi carbs???  I hope this does not stir the pot.... lol


I think all three have been used.  Somewhere I think the original cushman car by is now available. Float style plain Venturi carbs works bu you need constant fuel pressure . Small engine car by have pulsating vacuum pumping built in . By the engine they are a float car by  but you will still need a small fuel pump.


----------



## rlo1

Decided to go with the Cushman carburetors after talking to Lee with ageless. It seems like I shouldn’t try to re-design something that’s already been figured out. What’s cool is they already mount up to my existing housing since I’ve built the housings to plan.


----------



## rlo1

Sometimes it feels like I spend more time making tools and fixtures than actually building the engine. This is a very meticulous part of it where I have to go through and re-check tightness on every single little 3/16 inch nut holding the cylinders on to the crank case.  







I had second thoughts about the brass nuts being used. So I decided to double nut them with steel back up. It solves the problem of vibration coming loose and also it doesn’t look that bad so we’ll see how it turns out.  There are only 432 nuts to check…. 431… lol. It is relaxing work. 




All the valve work is done and gaps are set. I will reset them all again after motoring prior to starting.


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## rlo1




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## stevehuckss396

Nice work! I will be making one of those wrenches pretty soon.


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## Bentwings

stevehuckss396 said:


> Nice work! I will be making one of those wrenches pretty soon.


Interesting. The drawing with that tool was the first page in the set I got . I looked it ove pretty closely even with double vision you would think I could see the round shaft . I had the cad program up and running  I looked s number of times 
So I modeled both flat and round . I could have made a simple phone call but being stubborn I decided to just use logic. I thought it might be easier to just make itout of flat  stock. I modeled it both ways  now I see yours and I like the round shank better. I’m sure it took a lot of extra chips. I also looked on Amazon but the length was not available  I had not deteriorated this far jet so I thought I just alter an existing wrench I did find one and planned on just machining the end and TIG welding it .  I too looked at double nut fastening as opposed to nylon nuts . I suspect nylons would have caused studs to back out with them creating a real problem in limited space .

So you have done a beautiful job on you engine ost a running video .  I also would have used the bushman carb  with a fuel pump regulators for low pressure sr notorious for being  in reliable . Our race cars use a thing called hi speed lean out valve. These are brass with stainless tapered “ slider” and variable springs as well as screw on jets  an AN 6 size is about as small as they get but you make a smaller one . They use shims under the spring to adjust pressure we use a low pressure gage  to measure and set the pressure .  I’ve got two sets of washers that I use for spacers . You could probably make one ou of brass and stainless taper slider. These are tri angular and fit pretty precisely in the body . You could probably make a large enough one out of 10 mm brass hex stock and 1/4-40 ME  threads PM research has this stuff here in THE USA  easy place to do business with  fast service  I enter PMRsearch steam to get to model stuff .  Are you goingvto make valve covers?


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## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> I agree with redesigning  something that apparently has worked many times before .  Some times there real is a better way . Sometimes it’s just a personal preference . I try things first then maybe make  alterations or make special. There usually was a good reason for the engineer or designer creating things.  Arbitrarily changing things without concrete thought maybe make a lot of extra work
> Interesting. The drawing with that tool was the first page in the set I got . I looked it ove pretty closely even with double vision you would think I could see the round shaft . I had the cad program up and running  I looked s number of times
> So I modeled both flat and round . I could have made a simple phone call but being stubborn I decided to just use logic. I thought it might be easier to just make itout of flat  stock. I modeled it both ways  now I see yours and I like the round shank better. I’m sure it took a lot of extra chips. I also looked on Amazon but the length was not available  I had not deteriorated this far jet so I thought I just alter an existing wrench I did find one and planned on just machining the end and TIG welding it .  I too looked at double nut fastening as opposed to nylon nuts . I suspect nylons would have caused studs to back out with them creating a real problem in limited space .
> 
> So you have done a beautiful job on you engine ost a running video .  I also would have used the bushman carb  with a fuel pump regulators for low pressure sr notorious for being  in reliable . Our race cars use a thing called hi speed lean out valve. These are brass with stainless tapered “ slider” and variable springs as well as screw on jets  an AN 6 size is about as small as they get but you make a smaller one . They use shims under the spring to adjust pressure we use a low pressure gage  to measure and set the pressure .  I’ve got two sets of washers that I use for spacers . You could probably make one ou of brass and stainless taper slider. These are tri angular and fit pretty precisely in the body . You could probably make a large enough one out of 10 mm brass hex stock and 1/4-40 ME  threads PM research has this stuff here in THE USA  easy place to do business with  fast service  I enter PMRsearch steam to get to model stuff .  Are you goingvto make valve covers?


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## rlo1

All the valve covers are made. I still have a lot of valve adjusting to do in my future. They will go on after the engine is running.  I need to polish them up too.


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> All the valve covers are made. I still have a lot of valve adjusting to do in my future. They will go on after the engine is running.  I need to polish them up too.[ATTACH type="full" width="317px" alt="01F459BF-735E-4C63-BCF3-
> 
> Nice work. They will polish up nicely1DFF5E4F8E14.jpeg"]139541[/ATTACH]


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## peterl95124

I would have used hex socket head cap screws to hold the cylinders to the case so I could use a ball-end hex driver at an angle to screw them in and tighten them  !!!


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## rlo1

peterl95124 said:


> I would have used hex socket head cap screws to hold the cylinders to the case so I could use a ball-end hex driver at an angle to screw them in and tighten them  !!!


In hindsight, that would have been much easier.


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## Bentwings

peterl95124 said:


> I would have used hex socket head cap screws to hold the cylinders to the case so I could use a ball-end hex driver at an angle to screw them in and tighten them  !!!



I’d guess that would be ok in my opinion I have at least 5 sets of ball drivers of various lengths plus a couple hex extensions. I don’t really like those as they are too bulky I looked for just a piece of hex tube to make a special extension but I was un able to find it  short of purchasing a hex broach  I be left that one on the table there are relatively compact torque device Ed available cheap 2/4” drive torque wrenches don’t seem consistent enough .  Once you have made a round wit one I’d guess you could be as good as all but the very best torque wrench .


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## Bentwings

Bentwings said:


> one thing I try to do before resigning  model things is to look at the original product snd designer . In thi case mr Hogson and his dad worked on these engines for something on thebirder of 35 years there have been many of these built and operated very successfully .  Looking atvtge recommended parts, I thinkbyhrse see studs without getting out my drawing set  4-40 stainless steel I think . So why might this be? There  is a huge amount of aluminum  in the engine . Quite complicated cylinders. Lots of them. I don’t know just how hot everything gets . A 4-40 stud probably can stretch a little  the full size studs stretched and recovered. Not being experienced in the full size I do have quite a lot of automotive experience as well as high peer racing.  I’ve seen studs. Reduced diameter shanks to allow for stretching and recovery . And of latvthe single use or one time install  then throw away . So I’d guess that attaching cylinders with slightly stretchy studs might be a good ide.  Socket head cap stews are usually grade 8 or better which is pretty ridged  ive used she’s in smaller model engines to replace slotted he’d screws  high nitro engines some times simply pulled the threads vout if you found lose head screws, there was likely a worse problem bent rod cracked or burned piston , broken mounts etc   I did try studs but high nitro often killed something else .
> 
> So in this complicated engine I YHINK I’d go with the designer . He is a very good model engineer and I’m sure he tried or thought about cylinder attachment . He is a wonderful person to talk to on the phone  and knows every part of each of his engines quite well . Designing a special wrench just for these nuts says that he fells this is the optimum way to do this  I initially thought the shed a good idea too, but looking closer I’d trade this knowing it’s worked many times . Getting fancy I would think that some small electronic torque  reader would be ok . Needing an adaptor
> I’d guess that would be ok in my opinion I have at least 5 sets of ball drivers of various lengths plus a couple hex extensions. I don’t really like those as they are too bulky I looked for just a piece of hex tube to make a special extension but I was un able to find it  short of purchasing a hex broach  I be left that one on the table there are relatively compact torque device Ed available cheap 2/4” drive torque wrenches don’t seem consistent enough .  Once you have made a round wit one I’d guess you could be as good as all but the very best torque wrench .





Bentwings said:


> I’d guess that would be ok in my opinion I have at least 5 sets of ball drivers of various lengths plus a couple hex extensions. I don’t really like those as they are too bulky I looked for just a piece of hex tube to make a special extension but I was un able to find it  short of purchasing a hex broach  I be left that one on the table there are relatively compact torque device Ed available cheap 2/4” drive torque wrenches don’t seem consistent enough .  Once you have made a round wit one I’d guess you could be as good as all but the very best torque wrench .


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## rlo1

I thought about cap screws in the beginning and just dismissed it after seeing the design.  My thought process is that if I have to replace a cylinder, I would rather damage a stud than the tapped hole in the aluminum crankcase.  My fear is wear of the threaded hole in the aluminum with repeated removal and installation.  The studs with the double nuts are a PITA to install.  It looks pretty good though.


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> . I know the feeling I’ve used 4-40 taps in my Rc s scale models many times.  I think to problem  is poor quality taps  I’ve used rap magic cutting oil for a long time.  I often had to make custom drill and tap guides  but there is still a problem . I currently use a lot of 3 mm screws in my steamer I have several taps and s drill and tap guide inen have a quite fancy tap handle . I also use quite a number of 1/4-40ME  which is a very special tap and die set I YHINK each were 30$ or better . I had to thread 1/4” brass pipe with the tapered die. By hand it was hunorus as the result was a very fine threaded cork screw as our lathe is down . Careful tweeking I was able to straighten the thing out and made the unique depth gage I needed  the 3 mm taps and dies are not the best quality . I initially thought the shcs  was a good idea but I really agree with the stud snd ouble nut you are using  provide a micro bit of stretching  without loosening  it’s a lot easier to replace a messed up stud than repair a stripped hole  and you  now have correct tools to do the checking. Just think of trying to put a heli coil insert in a hole down inside the crank case  . Bad dream  I don’t really know how you would ever get the little non magnetic tang out. I had the fun of changing 3 mm to 4 mm holes in shaft collars but I at least had through hole to work with and small parts I could hold in fingers . Yes it worked fine and a destructive test showed very good strength . Still a messy job . mr Hogson knows his stuff.
> Broke my first 4-40 tap in the 9cyl front cover.  Was able to clear and re-tap.  I thread milled 95% of the 4-40s on this project (several 100's of holes) and never broke anything in the hole.  I tap 12 4-40 threads and break a tap...  I did not know how to thread mill before when I made this part at the beginning of the project.  I very much dislike hand taps....   Rant over.


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## rlo1

I have the 14cyl and the BR2 plans too.  I have built the BR2 stand and the crank cover.  It will be a long term project.  The crank is going to take me months...  No CNC on the crank, all manual.   All I have now is two chunks of steel. lol


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> There is nothing like just starting a very complex project .  I’ve built a number of big scale Rc planes . A couple from  precut basic parts to sheets on parts that need cutting out of plan sheets each part the selecting a suitable sheet of balsa or ply . Either individual contact gluing the individual parts To  the material or tracing them . It took 40 hours of cutting parts for one plane then weeks of building  . Probably the very hardest thing was the maiden flight. The flight was fine and much fun then came the landing . No computerized  pre programmed thing .  Gliding fully  flaps gear down slip through the  gap in the trees  then lining up and set down on the runway .    The peanut gallery cheering. They have been waiting for a spectacular  crash .  Overall  next to scoring the winning point in sports. Nothing better .  After many hours do machining countless parts  flipping the pro and hearing the opening startup is th same .
> I have the 14cyl and the BR2 plans too.  I have built the BR2 stand and the crank cover.  It will be a long term project.  The crank is going to take me months...  No CNC on the crank, all manual.   All I have now is two chunks of steel. lol


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> . Is this crankshaft a pressctogether at assembly?
> 
> There was an 18 cyl build some time ago Tom maker or something like that.
> 
> I YHINK he made a slip together or splined assembly  on cnc  there is pretty and tape Rc well detailed construction and taper  pins but it must be tough to get apart  if it needs to be disassembled .  The full size went through a number of mods  and GSD a massive bolt  assembly.  There were lots of vibration issues that caused crank failures  I recently read an article on how this was solved  Gleason gear works came up with a very special splined coupling plus numerous floating balancing systems were created. Remember this was slide rule days no computers . They did make some innovative data logging devices . Vacuum tube days.
> I have the 14cyl and the BR2 plans too.  I have built the BR2 stand and the crank cover.  It will be a long term project.  The crank is going to take me months...  No CNC on the crank, all manual.   All I have now is two chunks of steel. lol


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## rlo1

On the BR2 it is a 5deg taper and It is bolted together during assembly with a 10/32 bolt.


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> On the BR2 it is a 5deg taper and It is bolted together during assembly with a 10/32 bolt.
> View attachment 139645




I haven’t looked at  the  drawings in a while  if I remember there is a square tool bit or bar that holds alignment ?  The first builder that I followed machined a square into the counter weight then machined a matching pocket . If I remember he used a a kind of shaper tool to pick the    Corners rather than round the square feature corners . Not sure why.  The method Hogson used is pretty clever I YHINK ther is a fixture involved too.  My initial plan was to 3D cad model the entire set of drawings and have a 3D printed 
Model made for desk top display. However a stroke interfered and has left me with double vision  and med issues so I’ve temporarily put this on hold  I’ve added the larger screen TV to my lap top so I can see cad icons better so I’m gradually relearning the cad program .  The TV doesn’t have the resolution so I have to revert to occasionally referring directly to the lap top. It’s a unique experience “ machining 3D on the TV THEN VERIFYING FINE OINTS WITH MAG GLASS ON The LAP TOP.


----------



## rlo1

Bentwings said:


> I haven’t looked at  the  drawings in a while  if I remember there is a square tool bit or bar that holds alignment ?  The first builder that I followed machined a square into the counter weight then machined a matching pocket . If I remember he used a a kind of shaper tool to pick the    Corners rather than round the square feature corners . Not sure why.  The method Hogson used is pretty clever I YHINK ther is a fixture involved too.  My initial plan was to 3D cad model the entire set of drawings and have a 3D printed
> Model made for desk top display. However a stroke interfered and has left me with double vision  and med issues so I’ve temporarily put this on hold  I’ve added the larger screen TV to my lap top so I can see cad icons better so I’m gradually relearning the cad program .  The TV doesn’t have the resolution so I have to revert to occasionally referring directly to the lap top. It’s a unique experience “ machining 3D on the TV THEN VERIFYING FINE OINTS WITH MAG GLASS ON The LAP TOP.


lol, I have a huge monitor for staring at drawings!  I also 3D print parts in advance to see what I am getting into.  I have CAD'd almost every part on the 9 & 18 and will probably do the same on the BR2.  I have 3D printed several BR2 parts to date and have started building fixtures.  The crankcase and front cover is massive.  You are right about the crank, I am still studying it before making any cuts.


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Wise choice . If if I remember the  counter weights are stainless so not the easiest stuff to machine
> lol, I have a huge monitor for staring at drawings!  I also 3D print parts in advance to see what I am getting into.  I have CAD'd almost every part on the 9 & 18 and will probably do the same on the BR2.  I have 3D printed several BR2 parts to date and have started building fixtures.  The crankcase and front cover is massive.  You are right about the crank, I am still studying it before making any cuts.


----------



## Bentwings

I think it might be advantageous to make the counter weights hollow with ribs to save material in printing . Then make the real ones as designed.


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## rlo1

Both engines are back on the break in stand. Mechanically complete. Now to building the ignition system. 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Tim1974

Looks like you did a great job it’s all worth it when you get em  running well dun


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## rlo1

Progress


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## Bentwings

Tim1974 said:


> Looks like you did a great job it’s all worth it when you get em  running well dun


very nice work!


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## rlo1

Running wire and trying to keep it all organized.


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Progress[ATTACH  this is such a nice build can’t wait for running video type="full"]140391[/ATTACH]


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## rsholl

Looking very good. I do have some concern with the wiring. It all looks very good and neat and I don't feel the metal hoops will be a problem but the zip ties could be. If you bundle wires too tight and you have many of these points it can degrade the KV of the wire. The zip ties are OK just leave the wires loosely bound. Looking forward to seeing them run.

Roy


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## rlo1

Timing complete, ready for a prop, oil and fuel.  Working on the 18 should be ready for start up in a week or so


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## rlo1

I have yet to set up a test Stand, fuel tank, oil tank, all the necessary auxiliary equipment etc... I am still working out those details.


----------



## petertha

Very nice, best of luck.

Is there any special requirement for the spark plug wires themselves? I've heard different recommendations over time like high strand count, low resistance, minimum gauge size, shielding.... But I'm actually not sure if that had to do with bench mode running vs RC model mode (EMF, radio noise, that type of thing).


----------



## rlo1

Hello, Been trying to fire the 9 cyl for two weeks now.  I have 4/9 cylinders firing.  I am running the Carpenter Cushman carb.  I am running S/S ignition.  Had tons of crossover CDI issues that I had to address, it seems to have stopped, need to stay vigilant on this.  Had to unbundle the loom of wires and will have to redesign wire guides.  The 18 waiting for me to finish the 9.  I have some revisions to make to the 18 and I want to wait until I figure out these other issues on the 9.

The upper cylinders run lean and the bottom is rich.  Still trying to tweek the mixture settings.  It is the standard cushman Carter Model N Carb from Carpenter carburetors.

Gapped and regapped the plugs.  Running about .025 now.

Compression is improving as I did pressure check every valve in every head before final assembly.  The more I spin and sput  the better the rings get.

Valves are constantly requiring fine adjustments.  This is where the most of my focus is.  The Cam/Ignition timing seems OK as the plugs are firing just before TDC as required.

I seem to remember some good threads on this forum about these types of issues.  Suggestions?  Thanks again.  I really see why these major builds are so difficult to complete.  One cylinder at a time.... 

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone!

-Ron


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> id run what ever Hogson recommends for advance . Small engines, not that this a “ small” engine don’t realy need a lot. Lawn engines usually have about 28 degrees.  They are smal bore so the flame front covers the piston pretty quickly compared to automotive engines with twice the bore size  a couple small engine I used in large scale planes had electronic ignitions two had mechanical advance  electronic had built in advance.  the main purpose was easier starting with less kick back and better low speed , 3000 rpm or so.  I did considerable testing  but 28 rotatable worked well on most . There has been several guys making clear plastic heads for  Brigs and Stratton  so yo can clearly see the flame travel , for a while.  Yours is only about 1 inc bore so not a lot would be needed. When I looked at the plans I thought there might be a fuel distribution issue  the impeller should give pretty good mixing when running but there are still bends in the tubes these can cause fuel to drop out of the  mix mix . I had thought about an over drive for the impeller  but that got complicated fast  I did think about external driving it with electric motor the full size had multi speed and external supercharging . My thought was just fuel mixing . Supercharging this size simply does not work well  as others have tried with some cute clever centrifugal units  they looked nice but did not function beyond fuel mixing on draw through nuts . I’d be sure you are getting correct timing on each cylinder an maybe make sure you don’t have any low spots on the lower cylinder intakes even it means remaking the intake tubes. The counter to this is others have used it as designed and they run well . As for wires keep them separated  . We go to great lengths to keep wires separated on our racers . Once plugs get wet with fuel they don’t do well even full size radials have issues if they don’t use proper starting procedures
> Hello, Been trying to fire the 9 cyl for two weeks now.  I have 4/9 cylinders firing.  I am running the Carpenter Cushman carb.  I am running S/S ignition.  Had tons of crossover CDI issues that I had to address, it seems to have stopped, need to stay vigilant on this.  Had to unbundle the loom of wires and will have to redesign wire guides.  The 18 waiting for me to finish the 9.  I have some revisions to make to the 18 and I want to wait until I figure out these other issues on the 9.
> 
> The upper cylinders run lean and the bottom is rich.  Still trying to tweek the mixture settings.  It is the standard cushman Carter Model N Carb from Carpenter carburetors.
> 
> Gapped and regapped the plugs.  Running about .025 now.
> 
> Compression is improving as I did pressure check every valve in every head before final assembly.  The more I spin and sput  the better the rings get.
> 
> Valves are constantly requiring fine adjustments.  This is where the most of my focus is.  The Cam/Ignition timing seems OK as the plugs are firing just before TDC as required.
> 
> I seem to remember some good threads on this forum about these types of issues.  Suggestions?  Thanks again.  I really see why these major builds are so difficult to complete.  One cylinder at a time....
> 
> BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone!
> 
> -Ron


----------



## Bentwings

petertha said:


> spell check did me in again sorry it’s hard enough not seeing well but spell check often won’t even leave my name alone .
> 
> When I first saw the drawing set I looked up the cushman carb  I thought it to be kinda large for the engine but it’s hard to argue with experience especially from Hogson . He and his dad have done a lot of research an built quite a number of these engine .  The cushman scooter was not a real big engine  so I’d think that this was a big part of the thinking the 9 and 18 cylinder engine actually have quite a bit of “ operating displacement “ so the carb qualifies   But individual cylinders are not much larger than model two strokes of the era  they generally had a Venturi / spray bar and needle valve carb  so if I remember right when the zhogsons first ran these they did use this type but I YHINK the cushman was more a “ real carb”  all around so this became the choice  as it was more or less “ full function “ but until till the big engine is running there is not a lot of flow in the intake tubes  so it’s easy to get them wet inside   That’s why I was thinking about a motor driven impeller to really mix the air and fuel  no pressure expected just a lot of thrashing of the air fuel . My thought was that I could have a well mixed mixture in the system and not have to worry about only a weak signal from individual cylinders
> 
> Well keep popping you will get there soon . Once it runs even briefly  things will start to seal up . I’ve seen video of these starting with a single flip.  On the other hand the really expensive model radials like Moki can be very hard to start  I see them often using an electric starter
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice, best of luck.
> 
> Is there any special requirement for the spark plug wires themselves? I've heard different recommendations over time like high strand count, low resistance, minimum gauge size, shielding.... But I'm actually not sure if that had to do with bench mode running vs RC model mode (EMF, radio noise, that type of thing).


----------



## rlo1

Got a cool IR camera (Klein Tools) that works with my Iphone from Amazon.  It is nice for troubleshooting cold cylinders.  Making progress on cold cylinders every run.  7/9 thus far.  Happy Thanksgiving all.  Enjoy your loved ones. - Ron

FYI, this is one oily engine!  Love it!


----------



## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> the cheat laser IR heat gun from harbor freight is worthy of consideration. The dot is the frustum of a cone so distance from the gun is important  I forget the ratio but it’s pretty high . In other words you need to be pretty close to the heated object to avoid interference from other sources  testing the floor or wall across a room is probabl ok but if something blocks Bart of the cone  the reading is inaccurate  it’s also not good for taking your own temp unless calibrated for this. The ones at the medical office are specific so that’s why they are used you can use it as a reference one time to another as long as conditions are the same  the process is called immesitivity  this is the relative reflectsnce   It varies with materials copper is different than steel or aluminum . There may be something in the extremely fine printed document that comes with the units.    They still do a good job as long as you are consistent in usage  I jus measured m hand at 2.1  so body temp is incorrect as it’s not calibrate for this
> Got a cool IR camera (Klein Tools) that works with my Iphone from Amazon.  It is nice for troubleshooting cold cylinders.  Making progress on cold cylinders every run.  7/9 thus far.  Happy Thanksgiving all.  Enjoy your loved ones. - Ron
> 
> FYI, this is one oily engine!  Love it!


----------



## Tim1974

IT’s prity easy on the 9 cylinder to just feel the exhaust it won’t burn you let’s not over complicate everything


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Tim, I agree where you can feel separate exhausts but when they all feed a common manifold the IR thermometer is a good idea to balance cylinders that may not be working properly. On a Naval vessel I was on there were exhaust temperature sensors for monitoring if a cylinder had a problem. 12 gauges on each of 2 engines, to be recorded every hour by the watchkeeper. So we are just doing what is done by professionals, however we do it.
K2


----------



## Bentwings

Steamchick said:


> modern top fuel racers have on board data logging ex temps some have intake  temps  also time line then g loading so every thing is monitored the latest use ir temp reading to get around delay from thermocouples  by setting the emitters properly they get near instant temp measurements to plot on the time line  rules prevent auto tuning so back at the trailer then crew chief calls for adjustments for the next run the fuel input is timer controlled  so it’s the crew chief call when to adjust fuel during the run   Cars that have transmissions can also have shifts set according to g load time or rpm  even ignition for each cylinder is recorded  it can be adjusted for crankshaft twisting. GPS positioning  available too  so it’s possible to adjust tuning for track position  glad I’m out of the race game
> Hi Tim, I agree where you can feel separate exhausts but when they all feed a common manifold the IR thermometer is a good idea to balance cylinders that may not be working properly. On a Naval vessel I was on there were exhaust temperature sensors for monitoring if a cylinder had a problem. 12 gauges on each of 2 engines, to be recorded every hour by the watchkeeper. So we are just doing what is done by professionals, however we do it.
> K2


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## rlo1

Two steps forward two steps back. This image speaks volumes for me on how to proceed and troubleshoot. 6/9


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## Bentwings

rlo1 said:


> Two steps forward two steps back. This image speaks volumes for me on how to proceed and troubleshoot. 6/9View attachment 142468


looks like big progress nice. It’s running    
Now it’s time forvthe 2/3 scale Corsair


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## Bentwings

Tim1974 said:


> IT’s prity easy on the 9 cylinder to just feel the exhaust it won’t burn you let’s not over complicate everything


We had a twin engine b 25 Rc Warbird with scale functioning exhaust  one engine would not come up to max rpm properly . In testing I found the short side exhaust much cooler than the long side . I realy didn’t want to just ad length as it meant a 280 deg loop just to get the extra length . But it solved the problem . Both engine then ran less than 100 rpm difference from idle to max rpm   Very linear throttle response .   By carefully weighing the copper elbows snd tubing there was very little difference in side to side or total weight gain .


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## Steamchick

Inlet and exhaust pipes are tuned - whether planned or not - because that's what gases do... 
A gas moving in a tube will have resonances based on pressure, temperature, pulsation rate, etc. - all of which affect engine performance to some degree.
How much this affects engine running is more black-art than science, but most motorcycle and car makers have mastered the art to increase power/efficiency and reduce noise.
Scaling "older" designs creates new conditions that do not linearly change with scale, so may have more or less effect than on the original engines.
K2


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## Bentwings

Steamchick said:


> you can see on a smaller scale  what P&w faced when these engines were cowled over they went through piles of baffles and endless tests  and didn’t have the test equipment we have today .  You are right about some things just don’t “scale”
> Inlet and exhaust pipes are tuned - whether planned or not - because that's what gases do...
> A gas moving in a tube will have resonances based on pressure, temperature, pulsation rate, etc. - all of which affect engine performance to some degree.
> How much this affects engine running is more black-art than science, but most motorcycle and car makers have mastered the art to increase power/efficiency and reduce noise.
> Scaling "older" designs creates new conditions that do not linearly change with scale, so may have more or less effect than on the original engines.
> K2


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## rlo1

Upgraded the ignition wire to 20kv wire.  Big improvement. Still tweaking the mixture. Hope to get more runs this week during the holidays. 8/9. It runs better and better with each run. I made an inlet Venturi to increase the velocity of the air stream across the carb pitot. Not sure if it is helpful or not. I am going to completely rewire the 18 with the better wire and spacers. Merry Christmas! 




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## minh-thanh

Great . 
  Congratulations , and Thanks for sharing !


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## kuhncw

Your engine really sounds good.  Nice work.

Chuck


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## Basil

Lovely running engine . Nice work!


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## --colin--

rlo1 said:


> Upgraded the ignition wire to 20kv wire.  Big improvement. Still tweaking the mixture. Hope to get more runs this week during the holidays. 8/9. It runs better and better with each run. I made an inlet Venturi to increase the velocity of the air stream across the carb pitot. Not sure if it is helpful or not. I am going to completely rewire the 18 with the better wire and spacers. Merry Christmas!
> View attachment 143187
> 
> View attachment 143186


Very nice to see it running. Congratulations.


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## rweber

Congratulations! Nice Work! How did you this thermal video?


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## Bentwings

I like that thermo view , too how did you make it ?


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## Bentwings

Today I was digging around an idea  for another project of mine the subject of planetary gears and gear boxes enters the picture .  I thought about your scroll intake these are more fuel air mixers rather than superchargers . A number have been built as superchargers but these don’t function well as you can’t really drive them fast enough and t ver high speeds the scroll cavatates destroying any chance of moving air   Way back when I first got the Hogson drawing set I looked into dual staging  the scroll , one discharging into the second .  I stopped sbout there as med condition precluded fancy machine shop work  adding a second stage  or even a third stage would not be too hard as these  planetary drives are based on nema  stepper motor sizes  the drives should be easily reversible  with at most a shaft connector  some are as high as 30:1   So even if the “ supercharger “ were driven electrically you could get some big rpm it’s hard to get the air flow in these small scrolls but you could substantially increase the volume available fuel air mix and it would be really stirred up !  So getting it to flow down the intake pipes should be easier 

 As I recall there is an easy shaft mount on the crank to off you chose to crank drive I YHINK I’d go with electric as you could creat some flow control by just barring the scroll speeds   Just a thought for you to ponder  I’m goingvto order one of these in nema 17 as I have several stepper motors this size  mostly just for fun . The guy that originally designed these turbines did quite a bit of work on small scroll or centrifugal blowers he never got enough flow to blow up a plastic bag and ultimately the high speed scroll blew up I haven’t seen anything since then  I YHINK the best way would be to build a model of gmc diesel blower which is positive displacement so it would feed the scroll positive air.   Conley engines makes these and they produce boost on his v 8 engines  5 psi I YHINK  that’s pretty good for small supercharger .  Several of these have been built I YHINK cad models are on grab cad but I really don’t know how to use that . The back of my mind says to 3 d print a test model just for fun  there is a print service not too far from me . I have no idea what he charges   But it would be possible to get the case , end plates gears and rotors done all at one time so it might be practical. .  I’ll keep thinking on this  feel free to question me . We actually have a complete near new gmc 6-71 blower so it would be relatively easy to get measurements if I could get out to the shop or have my son bring it over to me .


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## peterl95124

Bentwings said:


> Today I was digging around an idea  for another project of mine the subject of planetary gears and gear boxes enters the picture .  I thought about your scroll intake these are more fuel air mixers rather than superchargers . A number have been built as superchargers but these don’t function well as you can’t really drive them fast enough and t ver high speeds the scroll cavatates destroying any chance of moving air   Way back when I first got the Hogson drawing set I looked into dual staging  the scroll , one discharging into the second .  I stopped sbout there as med condition precluded fancy machine shop work  adding a second stage  or even a third stage would not be too hard as these  planetary drives are based on nema  stepper motor sizes  the drives should be easily reversible  with at most a shaft connector  some are as high as 30:1   So even if the “ supercharger “ were driven electrically you could get some big rpm it’s hard to get the air flow in these small scrolls but you could substantially increase the volume available fuel air mix and it would be really stirred up !  So getting it to flow down the intake pipes should be easier
> 
> As I recall there is an easy shaft mount on the crank to off you chose to crank drive I YHINK I’d go with electric as you could creat some flow control by just barring the scroll speeds   Just a thought for you to ponder  I’m goingvto order one of these in nema 17 as I have several stepper motors this size  mostly just for fun . The guy that originally designed these turbines did quite a bit of work on small scroll or centrifugal blowers he never got enough flow to blow up a plastic bag and ultimately the high speed scroll blew up I haven’t seen anything since then  I YHINK the best way would be to build a model of gmc diesel blower which is positive displacement so it would feed the scroll positive air.   Conley engines makes these and they produce boost on his v 8 engines  5 psi I YHINK  that’s pretty good for small supercharger .  Several of these have been built I YHINK cad models are on grab cad but I really don’t know how to use that . The back of my mind says to 3 d print a test model just for fun  there is a print service not too far from me . I have no idea what he charges   But it would be possible to get the case , end plates gears and rotors done all at one time so it might be practical. .  I’ll keep thinking on this  feel free to question me . We actually have a complete near new gmc 6-71 blower so it would be relatively easy to get measurements if I could get out to the shop or have my son bring it over to me .



if you want to see a working design of a supercharger for a radial engine get the plans for the Bob Roach / Bruce Satra Pratt & Whitney 985 Wasp Junior, and the plans for the Karl-Erik Olsryd Wright J5, these both have working scale superchargers with slightly different gear arrangements that you could chose from.

I seriously suggest abandon electric, especially stepper motors which don't run smoothly (they aren't designed to run smoothly, instead they "step" from one angle to the next), your best bet would be a modern high powered RC ducted fan electric motor running on lithium batteries, but even that will have trouble delivering the power and speed a supercharger needs. 

if all you want is good mixing and even flow to all 9 cylinders rather than an actual boost, then cut the gear ratio down.   I have a functional model supercharger on my Rolls Royce Merlin model engine, but currently I've left the gears out because I currently only have gear ratio that is "scale" but I'm afraid that may put too much stress on the engine (powering the supercharger requires the engine to produce more power, which it gets by increasing both air flow and fuel flow, generating higher combustion pressures), when I get the time I'll retrofit with maybe 1/2 the current gear ratio which will require 1/4 the power.

if you really want to go all the way down this rabbit hole get the plans book for the Kurt Schreckling model turbojet, and the plans book for the Thomas Kamps model turbojet, which contain some of the theory of compressors, its fascinating physics, thermodynamics, engineering, and machining.


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## Bentwings

I agree the electric was just for static use on test stand  again just a mixer 

I’ll lookup your suggested reading . I’d be interested in how they operate .

A guy on the internet did a bunch of machining on a couple designs but both blew up. He even made a sort of scale Tesla supercharger but I have not seen any results of late . There was a discussion on how they work. Supposed to be very efficient but as many models don’t always scale very  well I’ll look around a little more. 

I would look toward a positive  displacement like a semi scale roots blower. There have been a couple made that actually worked. Even these I think would bevrpm limited  our race car ran an 8-71 at over 11 k rpm  that’s a lot of aluminum flying around  it had great boost atvthe start but dropped off down the track we used a three speed transmission so it was shifted  at about u 9k rpm  then we used a series of fuel control valves to limit fuel in put to try and keep mixture about right  these were mechanical fuel injection with positive displacement furl pump. So by carefully reading spark plugs we could adjust mixture.  We would burn about 15 gallons of alcohol per run  the blower was getting tired andvthe nylatron strips sealing the rotors were showing wear .   Some of the new technology had not been proven yet so we were a little out of the loop.   These run a lot faster now and produce incredible boost pressures  considering 500+ cu in engines  the addition of nitro made up for blower inefficiency some but we really needed a new unit .   It was an era that will never come again . Fun while it lasted . 

 I’d like to see some models of the old hemi stuff


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## rlo1

Bentwings said:


> I like that thermo view , too how did you make it ?


Check out -  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B4PXYRS1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1  works nice.


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## peterl95124

Bentwings said:


> I like that thermo view , too how did you make it ?


have to agree, that's an awesome view, pricey but awesome,
I just put my finger in the exhaust to tell if its hot or cold,
but that imager sure seems like a fun toy to have


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