# What Do Words Mean?



## Stan (Dec 4, 2008)

I was of the impression that if I manufactured something then I made it. 
Apparently that is no longer true in our global economy. Today I bought a fancy glue gun with the Dremel name all over the box.
On the bottom of the box this is what I find.

Manufactured by Dremel (USA) Tool made in China
Imported for Dremel in Mexico by:
Robert Bosch, S de R.L.

If it was made in China and shipped to Mexico, what was manufactured in the USA?


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## ksouers (Dec 4, 2008)

Lets see...
Is Dremel a subsidiary of Bosch? That could be one point.

Dremel may own the factory in China, so probably still worthy of carrying the "manufactured by Dremel" label.

My guess is: manufactured in China because it's cheaper, then sent to Mexico where the tariff is cheaper or nonexistent, then sent to the USA without tariff thanks to NAFTA.

But that's just a guess.

Probably just the price tag was made in the USA.


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## wareagle (Dec 4, 2008)

Nope. The price tags are printed in Taiwan.  ;D They were printed and installed by an American working for minimum wage that could care less about the job they have or taking care of the customer. LOL  :big:


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## dsquire (Dec 4, 2008)

Stan

Manufactured by Dremel (USA) - Probably means Dremel is an American owned company or Name is registered in USA. They will do anything to make you think you are getting a Cadillac even though it's only a Chinese Chevy. It's not only a case of reading the fine print but of how to interpret the fine print.

Cheers :bow:

Don 



			
				Stan  said:
			
		

> I was of the impression that if I manufactured something then I made it.
> Apparently that is no longer true in our global economy. Today I bought a fancy glue gun with the Dremel name all over the box.
> On the bottom of the box this is what I find.
> 
> ...


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## tel (Dec 5, 2008)

As I understand it, Dremel have been owned by Bosch for some years now. I imported my Dremel direct from Racine, Wis. back in the days when they _were_ made in the USA


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## jack404 (Dec 5, 2008)

Spot on tel, bosch own quite a few brands so i've found out

in Oz they(Dremel products) are run by Bosch in NZ

Mine is made in mexico, i bought it in 94 and it was NOT cheap

however .. 

the plastic case is made in the USA, 

the carbide bits have france stamped on them

the stones are newer and are made in china ( i think the orginals where arkansas but gone long ago)

the extention is made in Australia ( flex industries have been around for years)

the drills are a mix (China USA Australia Germany) and i dont know whats oridginal if any so cant say

some of the brochures are printed in the USA

some are printed in the Netherlands
and one (the colour catalogue of extra's) is printed in Portugal ! 

i musta got the multinational version

bloody good tool though!  

its had a few thousand hours of work over the years is my guess 

worn out 3 collet sets a heap of bits and a mass of drills and wheels and its still going strong


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## gbritnell (Dec 5, 2008)

Years back we were told that it was a gobal economy and that we would have to join in to be part of it. The only problem with that premise then and now is that the playing field was never level. By that I mean we as consumers would go to the store and in some cases buy the cheapest item we could find. Not many people looked where the item was made or didn't care. This in turn made the manufacturers go offshore to keep their profits up which meant a loss of domestic jobs. We were told that our wages and benefits were too high to compete. Now we have little to no manufacturing, no jobs and no benefits. I think we have nobody but ourselves to blame. I hate to be a protectionist but how on earth can we compete with $1.25 an hour wages? Sorry for my rant but for many years I tried to buy "American" but it's almost none existant anymore.
gbritnell


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 5, 2008)

Here is another good one . From Lincoln electric MSDS sheet for welding rod the statement in essence: *The word hazardous in the term "Hazarous Material" Does not necessarily mean there is a hazard.* 
if you do not believe me look here. in section II of the MSDS sheet. 
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/msds/US-M235.pdf
Tin


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## raggle (Dec 5, 2008)

In 1973 I asked for a British made tyre for my son's bike. The man in the shop laughed so hard he fell over. By then the nearest manufacturer was Hungary.

The thin end of a very fat wedge.

Ray


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## ChooChooMike (Dec 5, 2008)

I was just reading something yesterday about the state of U.S. manufacturing, or lack thereof. 

It said that at the end of WWII over *50% OF THE WORLD'S PRODUCTION CAPACITY* was contained within the borders of the U.S.

I wonder what it is now, 10% or less ?


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## shred (Dec 5, 2008)

Last night I was perusing a reprint of the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia. It's a book with several thousand pages of pretty much everything there was to know about the business of making real steam and diesel locomotives as of 1941. It was amazing to realize how many plants there used to be in the US, all capable of turning out massive steam locomotives (biggies like 4-8-8-4's and so on).


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## wareagle (Dec 5, 2008)

shred  said:
			
		

> Last night I was perusing a reprint of the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia. It's a book with several thousand pages of pretty much everything there was to know about the business of making real steam and diesel locomotives as of 1941. It was amazing to realize how many plants there used to be in the US, all capable of turning out massive steam locomotives (biggies like 4-8-8-4's and so on).



Shred, you are too correct!! Unfortunately, the greed has over come our industrial capacity. Check this out:

 
*CALLING ALL MACHINISTS*
BY JAY LENO


*Leno's cars, like his '32 Packard, don't just look good.
They run right and that means he needs skilled
machinists to make parts.*

Nowadays, if I meet younger people who run machine shops, they're working there because it was their father's machine shop. You don't see a lot of young guys starting machine shops. But it's a respectable trade and there's still a lot of money to be made. Take the guy who used to be in the building next to mine. He made airplane parts and his business got so big he outgrew the space. This was a guy with a little machine shop with a bunch of machinists. He made $14 million the year he left. I'll tell you how he did it. There are tons of phony airplane parts coming from Asia and other sources that are stamped "Approved." Trouble is, they're not approved by anyone that matters. So the big airlines would come there and say, "We need 600 titanium bolts." Then they would have to have somebody stand there while the guy made the bolts out of titanium. So the work never got out of the airlines' hands. When the bolts were done, they were stamped, graded and delivered. You have to understand that some critical aircraft bolts are 4 grand apiece, because the only way you can ensure that the bolts are being made right-there's such a black market for counterfeiting aircraft parts-is to pay a trustworthy man to watch each and every part being machined. That's why they're so expensive. So bolt by bolt, this guy's a millionaire. 

What a difference from years past. In the old days technology was expensive and labor was cheap. Look at my 8.0-liter Bentley. You've got about 75 acorn nuts holding the water jacket on. When this car was built you could pay a guy 10 cents an hour to sit there all day and tighten acorn nuts. Now it's just the opposite: Labor is expensive and technology is incredibly cheap. It's odd, but I'm not simply talking about physical labor today. I'm talking about people with real skills. 

I watched "Dateline NBC" a while back and they had some guy on who was a math genius. You could throw him a column of figures and he could add them up quicker than you could on a computer. There are guys like that with machinery, guys who can just look at an engine and know all there is to know about it. Take the late Harry Miller, a real American genius-aesthetically and mechanically. Here was a man who made racing parts and engines in the 1920s and 1930s that looked like beautiful sculpture, but they actually worked. I don't believe Miller was a trained engineer-he was just an intuitive engineer. I don't think he went to MIT or anything like that. But he had the vision. So did Ettore Bugatti. And they had shops full of guys who had the skills to machine and make anything they needed. How many guys are there like that today? I don't know. But a lot of them just get passed by because it doesn't seem as though preserving and encouraging these skills is worthwhile. By establishing college scholarships, I'm just trying to open up another area for kids-an area that they may not know is available. When you're a kid, you always think you're the only one who thinks about anything. It's like sex. You think, "My parents don't know anything about this." It's the same type of reasoning.

I like the idea of making the job of a mechanic a respectable position. In my mind, I rank a machinist higher than a computer operator. But I think in America's mind, a machinist is like a Jiffy Lube guy-nothing against Jiffy Lube, but these are guys who have only the most basic automotive skills. The machinist's craft just isn't acknowledged, probably because it's hard, meticulous, often dirty work. People don't understand it.

_When Leno needs parts for his cars, he can't usually find what he needs on the shelves at your basic discount store._

Here's an example we should never forget. Somebody literally made all the airplanes-the fighters, bombers and transports-we used in World War II. We didn't win the war just because we were great fighters-not to demean anybody who fought-but we also won because we had the ability to overwhelm the enemy in terms of skilled production and technology. Think about Henry Ford and his chief engineer, Charlie Sorensen, figuring out how to build four-engined B-24 Liberator bombers on a mile-long assembly line in an enormous building at Willow Run, Mich. In California, before these East Coast guys got into the picture, they built aircraft painstakingly one at a time outside in the sun. But under the pressure of a world conflict, a couple of mechanical geniuses figured out a better way. Back then, we had plenty of people with the necessary skills: Kids learned machining and welding in high school, then they worked as apprentices until they mastered these trades. We built things that were very well done. And we did it all in America. Take my '32 Packard V12. It was built in Detroit, but some of the parts came from as far away as South Bend, Ind. The whole thing was made here, most of it under one roof. That doesn't happen anymore and it worries me. You think about another world war and you say to yourself, "Uh oh."

I needed high-speed gears made for one of my Duesenbergs. They're hypoid and helical. I found people who could make one or the other, but not both. I couldn't find anyone to make them. There wasn't one company in this entire country. Every gear cutter I tried told me that all the machines had been sold. Some went to Korea, some to China. But I called a company in India and they could make the gears. And I guess that would be okay. But finally, through an older man in Chicago, someone 10 years past retirement, I was able to get them made. And all it took was 18 months. But a few years ago, this job could be done within a few miles of Burbank Airport, right near my garage. I don't know if that means anything to a lot of people but it's important to me. All these venture capitalists today don't make anything. When they're dead, there's nothing left. Years ago, people made things that lasted. There was a finished product. I have a garage full of 'em. If you want to preserve old cars, you need people with the skills to do it. We're growing a generation of kids who won't know how to work on old cars. That's why I support the Fred Duesenberg Scholarship and POPULAR MECHANICS sponsors the Jay Leno/POPULAR MECHANICS Scholarship at McPherson College. It's too bad, but I see a lot of essential skills going to Mexico or Japan. You can still wander off on a side street in those countries and see some guy making something work because he's literally whittling a piece of metal to fit. True machinists don't think of metal as something hard and unchangeable. They can make anything they want, or replace nearly any part that's ever been made. I have a lot of respect for those guys. I always will.

_This article was printed in the *Popular Mechanics* magazine. 2001_


This is a sobering observation. And it doesn't just apply to the US either!


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## Maryak (Dec 5, 2008)

Oh for a logical human being

We pay millions to a top sportsperson and the bottom sportsperson pays money to play.

We pay the top machinist or any other artisan/craftsperson about the same as we pay the bottom one.

Logical ??? ??? ???

Globalisation should only apply to light globes.

My 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 on words.

Best Regards
Bob


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 5, 2008)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Globalisation should only apply to light globes.




There is a very simple fix for the problem, buy products made here. If there were no market for chinese goods, they would not be brought here. If walmart and Kmart cant sell there chinese wares and target is making money selling american goods, they will restock. The people in this country have nobody but ourselfs to blame for the problems we have created by over consuming goods not made here.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

Steve


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## wareagle (Dec 5, 2008)

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> There is a very simple fix for the problem, buy products made here. If there were no market for Chinese goods, they would not be brought here. If walmart and Kmart cant sell there chinese wares and target is making money selling american goods, they will restock. The people in this country have nobody but ourselfs to blame for the problems we have created by over consuming goods not made here.
> 
> Sorry if the truth hurts.



Steve, the truth does hurt! I'll try to stay off of the box here, but what you have said is true and correct. It goes back to my comment on greed! The greed part is on all sides of the equation. The corporate level, the distribution level, and the consumer level. The corporate people see that they can have their wares made overseas for much less cost than here. The distribution people can buy products from overseas for less than they can buy them here. And the consumers would rather save $.50 to buy an item that is made overseas rather than supporting the industries right here at home. Nowadays, you'd be hard pressed to find American made goods on any shelf.

We have a huge market for goods and services, and other countries as well. The more any one of these countries has imported, the less money stays in their local economy supporting their people. It is a sad but true phenomenon.


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## rake60 (Dec 5, 2008)

Human nature is the cause of that.
We want to earn high wages but pay the lowest cost for the products we buy.
You can not pay a work force $20/hr to manufacture a finished product that can 
be sold for $18 by someone else.

As the products get bigger the market gap widens.
I have a perfect example parked in my driveway, my tired old work vehicle.
It's a 1998 Chevrolet Tracker.
It was made by Suzuki, assembled in Canada and labeled as a General Motors product.
 : 

Why did I buy it instead of the 1998 Jeep Wrangler that was in that used car lot?
Well, the $3000 price difference of course. 

Rick


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## ksouers (Dec 5, 2008)

Sometimes you have to look beyond the name. My employer depends strictly on domestic customers, no exporting what we do. I try to buy stuff made in America, my job depends on it. But that sometimes means it does not have an American name on it.

My truck has a Japanese name on it, but it was built by Americans in a factory in Indiana. Of course, the parts come from all over the world, including the USA. But it was built HERE.


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## rake60 (Dec 5, 2008)

My wife's new Jeep Liberty has a tag inside the door that reads:
"Vehicle Made In USA"

Another play on the words....

Rick


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## jack404 (Dec 6, 2008)

in Oz we have had various losses

share buy outs 

direct sales of companies 

forced sales via banks ( these suck but now we dont allow foreign bank loans)

political deals ( very common with the last government we had here)

but the day Vegemite was imported as a test the CEO SVP and CFO's of Kraft (Aust) houses all had fires on the same day

and seeing someone called the insurance companies BEFORE the fires happened ( dunno what was said) they never paid up

it was not that public but they did promise to never to try to send those manufacturing jobs oversea's

the International cheifs of Kraft foods have never been to Australia since and the cops are still lookin for those responcible

when the same thing happened at a previously Oz owned biscuit company this sort of stopped a lot of places going offshore until even just writing a letter against this action was made illegal

result?  

now some union folks have crazy tough rules, 
not allowed to attend union meeting without 2 months notice ( 6 month jail) 
dont disclose your vote in a meeting to the government or bosses when asked( 6 months jail)
no stop work meeting ( 12 months jail) 
no safety inspection for workplaces (3 years jail)

i've been banned from holding a paid job ( so i started my own work) as the insurance industry council have ruled i'm too high a risk ( health wise) because i won a suit against my health insurance company 

if i apply for a job i can get 5 years jail ( criminal fraud)

and we call this a free country ??

we get freedoms by drastic actions of a few but if they get caught they are locked up for heaps

freedom?  free to eat consume pay taxes and die (if your taxes are paid)

freedom   when did that word change its meaning ???


my "legally binding" lease does not bind the big company who gave the former prime minister $2million dollars to thank him after he left office, and allows them to screw 136 business's but becauase its not a Australian company does not have to play by our laws, but will use our laws to bankrupt folks ..

and everyone is equal under the law ( with what looks like '000's of exemptions and more every day)

GRRRRRR

no wonder my mate wanted to register a domain name 

jackgoespostal.com.au but then i explain that would be "conspiracy" and possibly "knowingly concerned" and possibly a breach of IP if someone makes a movie afterwards

the short of it is

words have meant what ever the richest lawfirm wants them to mean for years

sad eh

jack


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## rickharris (Dec 6, 2008)

[global economy rant warning]
Sadly we are all victims of our own greed, Corporate company greed, government greed and short sightedness. Changes in manufacturing from high skill hand/machine work to high levels of automation create large volumes of products -(mass production)  where you have mass production you have to have a global market rather than your local skill/local market and of course you get lower prices (to a degree) but most certainly huge profits.
The governments encourage the normal man in the street to buy into shares because this inflates the share market that had up to that point fairly steady growth of just over inflation as prices rose and your boom begins.

Company returns to the share holders become more important than the workforce, that is rapidly shrinking anyway as automation is introduced and for those left skill levels are reduced to machine minder, and the search for lower overheads begins. Step up to the plate Taiwan, China, India, Hongkong, Japan and a few others with high levels of man power, skilful trainable rural populations who can work for pennies because their rural income is basic subsistence.

Add on to that greedy governments who see a way to become world economic powers and you have the drive to ignore health and safety, worker welfare, pollution and planning issues so factories can be thrown up to get on the band wagon.
We on the receiving end take the cheap goods because it appears to make our standard of living go up because our money buys more  often at a reduced quality  BUT at some point the piper has to be paid. Our job base has been sold aboard  without jobs we become service industries, middle men for the far eastern economy if you like, we rely on the financial markets for a work base feeding the monster that is supplying us. When those financial industries get hungry they start to supply money to people of all types whos ability to pay back may well be fragile or non-existent. 

The recipe for disaster has been assembled  disaster when, not if, is the question. Well, the time is now and it is going to hurt. Large corporations are crying in their beer, most countries have had to bail out their banking system. For us, the man in the street, if you have a job and can keep it your lucky, if you have savings their value is in decline. Prices will/have to go up reducing our standard of living. For those young enough never to have experienced hard times who have few skills and little will to economise or make do it will be a very hard lesson. 

Unfortunately this is a genie that you cant get back in the bottle. Perhaps best placed will be those who have skills they can sell/barter locally or those who have little dependence on the wider global economy (my personal choice) and who have little or no debt. There are interesting times ahead for the foreseeable future no matter what your President, Priminister, Government say this will take several years to subside and may never get back to the peaks of recent years. We, the global we, asked for it! IMHO
  [/global economy rant warning]


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## gbritnell (Dec 6, 2008)

Very well said, Rick!!!
gbritnell


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## shred (Dec 6, 2008)

I was poking around the Locomotive Cyclopedia a little more and ran across the section on 'Export Locomotives'.

At one point the economy of the US had a very large export component to it. It's probably a good thing people in those countries didn't say 'don't buy stuff from the US' back then. 

FWIW


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## ksouers (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack,
You hit on my favorite word: "Freedom". 

Unfortunately far too many people don't know the meaning of this word. It is closely related to another word "Independence". Something we used to know about here in the USA, but no more.

Some times I wonder who owns my house. I have a bill of sale and a title to it, but if I want to do anything to it I have to get permission from the county government. So, who really owns it? Me or the government? I paid money for it, but I still have to "rent" it from the government each year in the form of property taxes. If I don't I'll get evicted. So where is the Freedom there? It seems the only difference between ownership and renting is the landlord.

Various levels of government take money out of my paycheck before I even see it. When asking for a tax cut the government reply is "We can't afford it". Yet they never ask me if I can afford a tax increase, they just do it. So, even though I negotiated my pay with my employer, it's the government who actually decides how much I get paid. They only allow me to keep what they deem necessary, and will change that amount on a whim. So, again, where's the Freedom?

We now have government redefining what "rights" people have. Until recently "rights" meant you have the Freedom to do what you wish, provided it doesn't trample on the rights of someone else. They did not require the labor, time, money of anyone else. You alone were the only person needed to exercise those rights. Now we have government bureaucrats trying to define "rights" that require the time/money/labor of other citizens in order for someone to exercise those "rights". So much for Independence, eh?

Sorry for the rant.

Kevin


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## Stan (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't want to offend the members of the Boomer Generation, but that is where the problems started. If you are old enough to remember, in the 60s they were called the "Me Generation" with the attitude screw you - I'm OK.

Up to that point, the world economy was based on production. The man making shovels used his revenue to pay his workers and his suppliers. The profit went into the local bank and earned a nominal interest rate. When the shovel handle supplier wanted to increase production, he went to the bank and borrowed the money at a somewhat higher rate than was being paid to the the shovel man. Everybody was happy.

As the companies grew, they went public, selling shares to people who held them until death, spending the dividends and watching the value Of the stock increase.

The Boomers, better educated than any previous generation, looked for ways to become rich without all that work and time. Suddenly, introduced into the system were several new levels of profit taking without contributing anything to production. Investment banks, hedge funds, day traders ad nauseum were all taking billions of dollars out of the economy without adding to the GNP. Every dollar they earned increased the cost of goods without adding anything to them. Now nobody is happy.

Did you ever expect to see public companies, on bended knee, asking for government bailout and their union boss saying :We are willing to let you stop paying us for not working".

The only bright light in this story is that the majority of the boomers, nearing retirement, are watching their retirement go down the tubes with the stock market and housing price drop. They thought the good times would never end..


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## mklotz (Dec 6, 2008)

This thread really bothers me.

Were it not for the fact that it's in the "Break Room", I would have deleted it a long time ago. Rants about various countries' declining manufacturing abilities accomplish nothing other than perhaps destressing the author a bit - something he could achieve more effectively by going to the shop and building something. Furthermore, they contribute nothing of value to the main subject matter of the forum.

Yes, it's in the "Break Room" where, supposedly, anything goes. Nevertheless, I think it's unwise of us to allow, and tacitly endorse, incendiary subjects *anywhere* on this forum. Doing so implies that such discussions, even if civil, are somehow relevant to the forum's business. Moreover, each one becomes evidence to prove that the next one that comes along shouldn't be deleted.

I appeal to all of you to let this thread die - resist the temptation to comment on anything that might be added to it.


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## ksouers (Dec 6, 2008)

Well said, Marv.

I'll admit to getting carried away with the subject, it's quite an emotional one.
Best to just let this dog sleep.

Kevin


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## Maryak (Dec 6, 2008)

Marv,

You are absolutely correct :bow: :bow:

Apologies all round

Best Regards
Bob


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## CrewCab (Dec 6, 2008)

The last time I looked at this thread I had a laugh at Tin's post ...........



			
				Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> *The word hazardous in the term "Hazarous Material" Does not necessarily mean there is a hazard.*



but now, 24 hours later things have moved on somewhat, Marv is quite correct ........... whilst there are many valid points raised here *this is not the forum for them* let's let it rest guys and move on, an odd few comments about economic blight etc are no problem, that's life ......... but ........... there are hundreds of forums out there to discuss world affairs ..... and they are easy to find, here ........ let's stick (generally) to engineering and a bit of light hearted banter ....... so ....... politics is out 

CC


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 6, 2008)

OK Now we are back on topic sort of . How about this one. 
From the manual of my micromark mini mill:
*"This machine is only to be used by professionally trained Machinists."*
What a laugh I happened to be tranied by Professional USAF machining instructors but the Seig S-2 is a hobby machine built for the hobbyist just lawereez.
Tin


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## CrewCab (Dec 6, 2008)

Good point Tin, where do we draw the line between professional / hobby ??? ......... however ......... I believe that deserves a separate thread, and one which is well worth discussing 8)

as for this thread ............ lets let it die a natural death ............ either that or I'll Kill it 8)

CC


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## Dhow Nunda wallah (Dec 12, 2008)

Perhaps one thing should be added to this thread.
Simply this:
without exception, this is the best moderated forum, online or off, which I have ever encountered.
The decorum exhibited by its members, exemplary.

To all those who give freely of their time and skills, thank you!

Sincere regards, Lin


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