# Deckel clone U2 Tool and cutter grinder



## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2019)

Is there such a thing as a decent manual to show set ups for this machine?

I've tried and tried for hours to find something that isn't a mumbling, incoherent 'thing'

Years ago there was a Chinese one (  I don't understand Chinese) but it seemed logical from decent filming.

Sadly, it's gone now

Norman

P.S. I should add that in my early days,I ran a technical library for a Royal Air Force station.


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## retailer (Jun 10, 2019)

I just posted the user manual for the Grizzly Deckel SO clone in the downloads section I also have the actual Deckel SO manual but it is too big to attach let me know if you want a copy we can work out a way to possibly email it.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2019)

retailer said:


> I just posted the user manual for the Grizzly Deckel SO clone in the downloads section I also have the actual Deckel SO manual but it is too big to attach let me know if you want a copy we can work out a way to possibly email it.



Many thanks, I have just downloaded it for perusal.
oddly, I have just returned from the Eye Dept of the local hospital where they have been trying to do something for what is now my remaining 89 year old eye.
I presented the local optician's prescription but it turned out to be my daughter's receipt for homemade soup.  Fits of laughter all round and ice was broken.
I came away with a beautiful powered eyeglass - for free.
Must be my Birthday. Strangely, it is tomorrow.

Now to try see the drawings- so Many thanks

Norman

I've now also copied the Deckel SO manual- for which I thank you.

I think that it is a question of  making the odd single lipped cutter until I become more familiar with  the machine as it was originally intended before embarking on other pursuits.

If it all works out, I can then get rid of my other grinding machines


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## petertha (Jun 10, 2019)

I think there was a dedicated group on Yahoo Groups? with lots of documentation & rebuilds & maintenance topics. Not even sure if YG is a thing anymore. Some groups have offloaded onto new dedicated forums, some have just fizzed which is too bad.

For some insightful Youtube videos on Asian clones, visit Stefan Gotteswinter & Rob Renzetti. Search on 'tool cutter grinder' or similar keywords.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY8gSLTqvs38bR9X061jFWw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn4U3aEr6L2nLe1m_3as6JQ


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2019)

petertha said:


> I think there was a dedicated group on Yahoo Groups? with lots of documentation & rebuilds & maintenance topics. Not even sure if YG is a thing anymore. Some groups have offloaded onto new dedicated forums, some have just fizzed which is too bad.
> 
> For some insightful Youtube videos on Asian clones, visit Stefan Gotteswinter & Rob Renzetti. Search on 'tool cutter grinder' or similar keywords.
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY8gSLTqvs38bR9X061jFWw
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn4U3aEr6L2nLe1m_3as6JQ



Peter

Thanks. Actually i'm a member of the Yahoo Quorn Group which is still in existence. I have a Quorn which some claim the Professor Dennis Chaddock  took his design. I can't argue! The Quorn is also a very complicated machine. I was writing to see if someone knew where there was a basic set of instructions- devoid of coughs, splutters, hairy arms 
and usually inarticulate description in what becomes a difficult thing to follow.
I'm partially sighted,  almost deaf and perhaps intolerant too!

However, I can happily follow the Old Masters in their write ups in the past. 

The views are mine, others may disagree but there is considerable evidence that many others experience similar problems to those which I have mentioned.

So I thank those you have attempted to bring simple working instructions to others.

Regards

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2019)

I've now found a series of  technical articles by the South California website and a manual by  by a firm called 'Tool maker'.

However, still no information on who to mechanically grind a lathe tool chip breaker on the Deckel clone


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## retailer (Jun 11, 2019)

I was going to mention the youtube videos by Stefan Gotteswinter but I see someone has beaten me to it. His videos are worth watching  as he always explains how and why.

I have just a few months ago completed a Quorn to the point where it is useable, the castings lay in a box under my bench for the best part of 25yrs before I got around to the build, the last major thing to do is the endmill flute grinding setup, however I plan to give Prof. Chaddock's design a miss and go straight to an air spindle, others seem to say that his design is ok and works but an air spindle is a bit of a quantum leap ahead. I haven't tried to grind lathe tools on it yet but will probably need to for my current IC engine project.


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## marvin hedberg (Jun 11, 2019)

retailer said:


> I just posted the user manual for the Grizzly Deckel SO clone in the downloads section I also have the actual Deckel SO manual but it is too big to attach let me know if you want a copy we can work out a way to possibly email it.



i think it's interesting that the Grizzly manual does not show any of the steps for actually making all of the various single lip cutters it is capable of making.  perhaps that's why the Deckel manual is so large.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2019)

Whilst it is true that adding the benefits of an air spindle is excellent, the tested and tried 'Chaddock' Quorn  works OK.  If history means anything, the machine was built on a very old Drummond which was older than the so called present Myford 7's. I think that friend Hopper has one! Whatever, the original Quorn was built without a milling machine.
Chaddock built an original Dore Westbury from part machined castings and went on to use the Quorn to build a Vee engine which remains the property of the Society of Model and Experimental Engineers in England and Chaddock made his own 1/10" diameter cutters on his machine. It is claimed that he couldn't re-sharpen them on made!
One of my late friends made one from fabricating but he built in a mechanical lift and utilised 3 systems of pulleys to change the spindle speeds. Chaddock had one and a knocked up pulley of plywood.

Again, this was all before the advent of diamond wheels and diamont pastes. With somewhat flagging memory, Model Engineer carried a series of further improvements and I seemed to upset the then  Quorn forum  by  introducing such heresy!

Perhaps, I went too far. I said that Arnold Throp who was associated with the supplier of castings etc was using a Kennet tool and cutter grinder in preference to the Quorn. Of course, I have both and a rather odd 'short' version of the Stent which sone soul fabricated prior to his demise. I bought it for £100 with the foolish belief that I was only  really buying the 1/6th HP 2880 rpm motor!  For another £100 I came home with a MK1 Clarkson on one of my forays.  I got a bonus of an electric chuck as we were both Freemasons! 

So my thoughts are that Model Engineer's Workshop issues 16 and 17 have a Brooks T&C which is a diminutive Clarkson but has the Quorn tool holder as its principal holder. 
Read about it in GadgetBuilder.com- and Yes I have the Brooks  articles! 
So perhaps, I have whetted your interest too

Regards

Norm


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2019)

marvin hedberg said:


> i think it's interesting that the Grizzly manual does not show any of the steps for actually making all of the various single lip cutters it is capable of making.  perhaps that's why the Deckel manual is so large.



Marvin,

 I hadn't your comments prior to my typing up for posting


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## MRA (Jun 11, 2019)

I've got a U2.  I use it to sharpen the ends of end mills (and slot drills).  It's a bit limited in terms of collet size, but it works well enough. I find when I acquire a really noshed cutter, that it's easier to cut the end off with a cutting disk in an angle grinder, and to do all the basic shaping and relief at the back and front of the teeth with the same, or perhaps with a skinny disk in a Dremel for little ones - all  freehand.  Then the U2 is just needed to get all the cutting teeth at the same height and angle.  

Having used it for a bit, I'm part-way through making something to go on the lathe to do the same job but which will hold big cutters too - I have a few.  I think a bunch of tin foil will keep the grit out of places it shouldn't be, for my purposes.  If this ends up working I'll sell the U2 on.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2019)

MRA said:


> Having used it for a bit, I'm part-way through making something to go on the lathe to do the same job but which will hold big cutters too - I have a few.  I think a bunch of tin foil will keep the grit out of places it shouldn't be, for my purposes.  If this ends up working I'll sell the U2 on.



So grit is the problem and this goes for lots including the Quorn.

Probably the best( my opinion) is the Clarkson/Stent/Brooks arrangement with a flat table and easier to dust.

Thank you for your input

Norm


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## BaronJ (Jun 11, 2019)

goldstar31 said:


> So grit is the problem and this goes for lots including the Quorn.
> Norm



Hi Norman,

I trust that you are keeping well.

Yes grit and other very fine particles are a major problem for any machinery that has contacting sliding surfaces.  I've seen way wipers made from all sorts of material, from cardboard, felt, rubber and even leather.  Simply covering the ways helps but its not always easy to keep or clean the stuff out.

FWIW I'm in the process of building a modified Brooks TCG.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2019)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Norman,
> 
> I trust that you are keeping well.
> 
> ...



Hi John

I also send greetings and hope that you are well. I'm enjoying my 89th Birthday today!

As you are making a Derek Brooks, there is a bit of a daft traverse arrangement and I have a spare Stent rack and pinion- just doing the square root of not a lot.
Actually, it's 20DP Myford pattern- probably from an old lathe.

I also have the drawings for a Kennet- As I said, it's a lot easier than a Quorn but could be fabricated. Mine is the 'Long wheel Base' variety. Here is the simplest version of the spindles for Quorn, Stent and Kennet alternatives.

There was a set of machined Stent castings and drawings for Buy it Now £60- also with the rack.  Come to think of it, it is actually cleverer than  than the bigger Clarkson.( Sold??????)

Keep in touch

Norman


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## BaronJ (Jun 16, 2019)

goldstar31 said:


> Hi John
> 
> I also send greetings and hope that you are well. I'm enjoying my 89th Birthday today!


Many Happy Returns Norman







> As you are making a Derek Brooks, there is a bit of a daft traverse arrangement and I have a spare Stent rack and pinion- just doing the square root of not a lot.
> Actually, it's 20DP Myford pattern- probably from an old lathe.



Actually I've got in mind to use a length of fine chain and a cog wheel to drive the top slide, my other Idea was a steel bowden cable around a spindle, a bit like the tuning drive arrangement on old radios.  I've already made the saddle and baseplate.



> Keep in touch
> 
> Norman



Yes I will, you take care now.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 16, 2019)

John
              Thank you for your good wishes but the Brooks is a development of the Stent wich is the devopment of the Clarkson and the  Brooks gets the the Quorn tool holder and  the Brooks( in original form) doesn't have the movable top table with- of course, Myford slots. Your tooling, I recall, is Myford.

So moving on to the Stent, one of my even older mates( seriously) milled a Myford yee slot along the from edge of the Stent to take precise stops.

Think seriously about the 'spare Myford rack and pinion' offer. It's probably worth your while to sweetheart Blackgates Engineering  for the 9 sheets  of the Stent when considering the  wonderful extra facilities of the Stent over the original much bigger Clarkson. Again, with the Stent you can copy the vertical height adjustment and its ability to move in a rotary fashion.  Again, you could add a Quorn rotary table onto the table top of the Brooks.

Nothing wrong with any of them but this is what was done-- and you risk being banned.
Oh, joy unconfined!!!! 

Thinking Quorn -wise and the THREE alternative spindles, one can re- pulley the thing with 3 different pulleys. It's been done!


It's not quite  'in the book' but worth realising just how MORE capable these beasties  can be usefully altered.

Happy Father's and Grandfather's Day to all.

Norm


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## MRA (Sep 26, 2021)

MRA said:


> I've got a U2.  I use it to sharpen the ends of end mills (and slot drills).  It's a bit limited in terms of collet size, but it works well enough...



Excuse me quoting myself, and digging up an old thread - but I recently looked again at using the U2 (/Deckel / Alexander / GHA) grinder to sharpen big end mills.  Mine takes R8 collets, and I was pleased to discover that 1" R8 collets exist - the thing is extended beyond the closing taper and the whole part of the work supported, is held in this extension (7/8" is the largest size for a 'proper' R8 collet which can be accommodated inside the taper).  

I reckon this would be a disaster for holding a big cutter in a Bridgeport (we use an R8 - ER40 chuck for that job, which works OK) but for accurately positioning a big cutter in a grinder where forces are very small, I think it might have potential.  I'll let you know when it arrives, whether it's a goer!

M


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## goldstar31 (Sep 27, 2021)

I have to confess that over the last couple of months that  I have been going back to 'Firsdst Principles' in taking a visit to see the trains of the Stone Age in a visit to the Hebrides to see the stone circles and the restored so called Nordic and not 'Scottish dwellings.  You know the sort of thing of more recent times of 'Donald where's your trousers' and Donald MacDonald of present diet
Then I've 'done' the 500 odd miles of the Scottish NorthWest Passage and ending up-- sort of on the island of Orkney- with more 4 or 5 THOUSAND years of history.  Plus a bit of Scapa Flow and with a German submarine sneaking in to sink a British battleship. Great stuff which claims to be the start of the Battle of Britain.Too much to take in for an aged old brain
So in a month' or so, to the placated valleys and terminal and medial moraine of the Ice Age!
Reindeers and almost tundra and merging into oblivion- my late wife';s ashes.
Oddly, her family had interests in going machinery and she in the attrition of-------------TEETH.
At 12 or 13m I used to sit with a Bronzw Age skeleton who was interesting but didn't say much 
My late wife used to keep a female head from some desert place and it spent its quiet life in a Jacob's Cream Cracker box. 

Well, there wasn't time to follow the 3 degree West line-------------where the gold is. Oh, yes-----that yellow stuff.
Goldstar 31 is  quite another story
N


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## SmithDoor (Sep 27, 2021)

Some Yahoo groups are now on www.groups.io

Dave



petertha said:


> I think there was a dedicated group on Yahoo Groups? with lots of documentation & rebuilds & maintenance topics. Not even sure if YG is a thing anymore. Some groups have offloaded onto new dedicated forums, some have just fizzed which is too bad.
> 
> For some insightful Youtube videos on Asian clones, visit Stefan Gotteswinter & Rob Renzetti. Search on 'tool cutter grinder' or similar keywords.
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY8gSLTqvs38bR9X061jFWw
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn4U3aEr6L2nLe1m_3as6JQ


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## SmithDoor (Sep 27, 2021)

This good for grinding milling cutters. I am doing the work any more. It up for sale 50% of new. It like new condition. 

Dave 






goldstar31 said:


> Is there such a thing as a decent manual to show set ups for this machine?
> 
> I've tried and tried for hours to find something that isn't a mumbling, incoherent 'thing'
> 
> ...


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## goldstar31 (Sep 27, 2021)

I guess that I am much older than most but amongst other things, that I am quite clear about the  origins of things like the Deckel and its later derivatives.   It may NOT agree with other concepts  but
I can go  back to the original Deckel which was NOT a so called universal cutter grinder but a tool for nothing more than grinding SINGLE LIPPED  ENGRAVING blanks.  Nothing more and the odd collet to do the holding. 
I tried to buy one at the local college where tool grinding was carried out on "Mark 1 Clarkson' on which the Blackgates Stent was based- first as a short bed then later as a long bed.
I have an all welded one- so there.
At that time there was NO homworkshop milling machine es until Ned Westbury brought out his mill/drill- which I built mainly from poor college castings but a headstock which came from Precision Models- under the Forth Road Bridge--- where my very fancy castings for the exotic Potts products were obtained. No argument I still have most. PM went to Hemingwaykits and I believe that they hold rather more tooling than they advertise!  They hold the Quorn castings etc originally from Model Engineering Services with Ivan Law as proprietor, Mr Law was associated with Arnold Throp pf Dore Engineering and there was the Kennet which is the forerunner of the Worden.  Again, I have BOTH.

So the Quorn came from D H Chaddock who was the Principal of Loughborough College who lived in a little town called  Quorn. Obviously because it  ground  corn into flour.   Me on the Hebrides and Orkney-- there was a millstone in one of the family weekend cottages near to Rumbling Quern on the Nortumberland coast.
Chaddock seems to have taken the college Deckel home and extensively modified it.  He was building a V6 engine and the Deckel was quite unable to make the 1/10 th diameter home made  milling cutters -- to do the fins.  DHC could make the cutters- but not sharpen them.
By 1973 or so,  the Mark one Quorn was doing all sorts of things that today's Deckel clone cannot do.  I have one.
I have no idea when the Stent originated but the now Canadian  ;Tinker' was being developed--- just about next door to the Late John StevenMBE abode. I guess that BaronJ has a set of original castings! Just a guess.

So that is more or less the history with. the Quorn in a 3rd version and  still being developed.

I have a Mark 1 and a kit for the Mark3.
I also have a set of plans for the original Brookes- I think.
Hopefully this will go someway to clear up misconceptions which have arisen.


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## Heritech (Sep 28, 2021)

Good afternoon to all,

Whilst I have been a member for quite sometime, I have not posted anything for a while.

As for the Quorn, About 2005(more or less) I was keen to get myself a Quorn, and after searching around and talking with model engineers here in Australia I purchased a part complete machine. When time allowed and whilst working on a Foden Steam Truck, I completed it when I could. It has not had much use, mainly due to the complexity of setting up, etc. and some different projects.

I note someone is needing books - I have the following: but they are only photocopies.

DH Chaddock "Operating instructions for the Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder" Modern Engineering Services 1975, 29 pages

DH Chaddock "Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder" Model Engineer 1974 - 1986,

-------- (nd) Set of Technical Drawings for the Quorn Tool and Cutter Grinder. 16 A3 Pages

DH Chaddock (1984 "The Quorn Universal Tool and Cutter Grinder" Argus Books. Hemel Hempstead. 128 pp.

*To the Editor Home Model Engine Machinist:*

I have a short article titled *Thread Checker* where I present a simple device that will facilitate the identification of nuts and bolts from random collections.

I will try and send it, but should it not arrive I may have to have some help.

Yours sincerely, Heritech.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 28, 2021)

Is anyone else building or considering building the most advanced Mark3 Quorn?


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## justintime (Sep 28, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Is anyone else building or considering building the most advanced Mark3 Quorn?


Love to get a set of plans, at the very least.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 28, 2021)

Justine
             In the UK, the cost of the plans and operating instructions are about £65.   I recall Martin's models in the USA
Most mark 2 ones should be easily converted  as Mark3's

 AS I have a  working Mark 1, , I am sort of adding the newer Mk3 bits to it- as they are machined.
Lots of pieces especially in the Mark2 remain unchanged.
It's all possible but I've seen all sorts of Quorn over the years

Best Wishes

Norman


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## BaronJ (Oct 1, 2021)

Hi Guys,

There have been a number of TCG designs produced, all of them excel at particular facets of Tool & Cutter grinding in one way or another !

There is the rarely mentioned "Collier Caseley"  TCG.  Basically a miniature lathe designed for grinding cutters, drills and the like.  Then there is the "Raymac" which is very similar to the "Tinker" with a purpose built wheel head rather than using a DE grinder like the "Tinker" does.


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## ajoeiam (Oct 2, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> There have been a number of TCG designs produced, all of them excel at particular facets of Tool & Cutter grinding in one way or another !
> 
> There is the rarely mentioned "Collier Caseley"  TCG.  Basically a miniature lathe designed for grinding cutters, drills and the like.  Then there is the "Raymac" which is very similar to the "Tinker" with a purpose built wheel head rather than using a DE grinder like the "Tinker" does.



This information then begs for this question: which TCG excels at what?

An accompanying question likely would be - - - - this TCG excels at this does processes x y and z reasonably and 'sucks' at a and b for information. 

This accumulated information would enable one to chose the version best suited to one's needs. 
(Would seem that sometimes more than one might also be needed - - - - grin!)


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## MRA (Oct 2, 2021)

Well - from experience so far, a U2 / Deckel / Alexander type is not much good for end mills with shanks over 7/8, and can't (I think) be set up for 6 flute cutters without clouting the 'next' tooth.  I've just about managed to use it for 2 flute slot drills with 1" shanks using the odd R8 1" extended collet mentioned up thread, but it is not easy to do anything except the final sharpening of the cutting edges - all the shaping and relief to get those cutting edges in the right place (especially for really badly noshed cutters which might come your way for free, which want the ends cutting off and starting again), I ended up doing freehand with an angle grinder, mostly a fine cuttting disk (I know, I know) and _very_ little side pressure.  You could do the same thing even slower with a Dremel.

None of that is likely to be interesting to a model maker, though the freehand approach to get things mostly there is also what I do with the sort of smaller cutters useful at home.  If I ever get the new-to-me part-finished Brooks-Stent to work (and I am moderately hopeful there, having spent another night roaming the sheds for useful ingredients) I will add more here to compare the two - but already it looks like the x-y-z approach of the latter, will probably be more flexible than the 'polar' or angular swiveling approach of the former - though the U2 is much heavier and more rigid, and the swivel approach lends itself to most of the motion locked up in use which helps there too.  Since I seem to be moving towards something like proper gib screws with the Brooks-Stent, I will probably do it like a miller, end two for general sliding clearance and a middle one with a handle to lock up when needed.


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## MRA (Oct 2, 2021)

.  Bum, double post.


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## BaronJ (Oct 2, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> This information then begs for this question: which TCG excels at what?
> 
> An accompanying question likely would be - - - - this TCG excels at this does processes x y and z reasonably and 'sucks' at a and b for information.
> 
> ...



I think that the answer is that each variation of TCG was originally designed to do one particular task well, and anything else is adding another level of complexity.  

True some machines can handle several different tasks, but it then starts to become a compromise requiring much more thought as to how each one can be accommodated and accomplished.


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## MRA (Nov 4, 2021)

Here's the picture of the 'long' 1" R8 collet in a U2 grinder.  It's at the limit of what you can squeeze in there - the top slide has to be backed off more than it really should - but it works.


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