# Face Mill



## Goldigger (Jun 8, 2011)

What is the maximum size face mill i can use on the Sieg SX2 mill? 
What sort of finish can i achieve with a face mill?

Cheers


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## websterz (Jun 8, 2011)

I use a homemade 1 1/2" 2 insert facemill on mine now and then and get good results in steel if I keep the cuts light, .020-.030 or so. For aluminum I use a homemade carbide insert flycutter and can get a nice finish, if I want a mirror finish I swap the carbide for HSS.


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## Goldigger (Jun 9, 2011)

Would a 2inch face mill be to big for my sx2?


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## steamer (Jun 9, 2011)

Probably....

Dave


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## kvom (Jun 9, 2011)

The diameter could be OK as long as the DOC was kept small enough. As for finish, you will always get witness marks when the tool is narrower than the part. A flycutter gives a better look since it can be adjusted to full width.


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## Paulsv (Jun 9, 2011)

A 45 degree face mill such as Glacern sells will cut better on a low horsepower mill than a 90 degree face mill. 

http://www.glacern.com/fm45

From their website description:

"The R8-FM45-200 is ideal for low horsepower and benchtop machines. Two of the insert pockets can be left empty for minimal power consumption." 

I use a 2 and 1/2 inch, 5 insert model on my Grizzly G0704 and it leaves a beautiful finish. Similar face mills are available from Shars for less money.


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## Goldigger (Jun 9, 2011)

There a bit more expensive than i was plannning to fork out on one 

I was thinking more along the lines of this..
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Glanze-3MT-Indexable-Endmill-40mm-Head-XC286.html


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## milotrain (Jun 9, 2011)

It's more expensive because it's better. Note that the one you posted is not positive rake so it takes more HP, also doesn't have a chip breaker relief so it takes more HP. In general the one you posted is the least efficient face mill possible (although I guess it could try and use the flat part of that insert and then it'd be worse).


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## Goldigger (Jun 10, 2011)

Looking at all the cheaper face mills from chronos rdg tools and arc euro trade, none of them appear to have positive rake.

This is positive yes?


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## steamer (Jun 10, 2011)

Guys

Let's keep it civil OK.  There is no need for insult or snipes. Leave it.


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## Goldigger (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry I'm confused, who's insulting who?

Has anybody used any of the cheaper facemills like the Glanze one i posted?


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## mzetati (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldigger  said:
			
		

> Looking at all the cheaper face mills from chronos rdg tools and arc euro trade, none of them appear to have positive rake.
> 
> This is positive yes?



I suppose You could buy milling inserts with different rakes, specific for the materials You're cutting.

Marcello


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## Ken I (Jun 10, 2011)

Goldigger - that is positive - yes.

Someone obviously posted a snarky reply and Steamer vetoed it - we don't go for that sort of thing on HMEM

Regards,
      Ken


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## milotrain (Jun 10, 2011)

I think it's possible to have positive rake inserts in a shell not necessarily designed for positive rake but I don't think it's likely. Sorry if I was being snarkey, I wasn't trying to be (by worse I meant that it would be worse in efficiency). It just frustrates me sometimes when tool makers make something that is clearly not ideal and then try to sell it. A lot of us (myself especially) assume that if a tool is sold that it's designed well but that is not really true. I really like Glacern, their tools are made in the USA from Import castings/raw blanks and built in California. They are good people who are very willing to talk to you about their hardware and while their stuff is more expensive than a lot of the import tools they are way below the cost of the high quality industrial tools like Seco and they are nearly as good (if not as good). I think with insert tools you don't want to "invest" in something that will take poor quality inserts and isn't designed right. It's not really a tool that will go dull and get replaced, it could easily be amortized over your entire machining hobby so it's worth spending good money up front.


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## steamer (Jun 10, 2011)

Well...this happens a lot

People type something....meaning it one way.

Other people read it and take it another.....

It would appear I've committed this misunderstanding today  :-[...it'll be someone else tomorrow :

No worries ;D

Dave


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## milotrain (Jun 10, 2011)

Don't think we don't all appreciate the constant nudges towards being cordial with each other. It's a good attitude to cultivate and I appreciate your earlier warning in the spirit it was delivered which is why I clarified my statement. Apologies for not being as clear initially and thank you for your understanding.


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## Goldigger (Jun 10, 2011)

To be honest I'm still none the wiser..i dont really want to spend £150+ on a face mill when my mill only cost £460..
Maybe ill just go down the fly cutter route, then i'm stuck grinding the tool steel..


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## steamer (Jun 10, 2011)

Milo,

What an outstanding thing to say...Thank you ! and your welcome. The team here trys very hard to keep it good spirited.  I don't know about you, but there's enough of the other stuff in this world, that I don't need it here! ;D

Goldigger.

I can understand your position. I would suggest the flycutter route also. If your limited on stiffness to two inserts in a multi insert holder...your not really any better than a flycutter anyway.

As for grinding steel....oh please learn, you'll be so glad you did. There is a whole world of opportunities to those who can grind a tool for their lathe and or mill.

Dave


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## Ken I (Jun 11, 2011)

Goldigger, Facemill geometry is a tricky subject, there's more to it than just the rake. To make matters worse you get positive rake negative inserts - by way of cutting edge geometry - at least thats what the makers claim - I have my doubts - because of the small edge lands it is still negative for light cuts - so for a minimill I doubt this approach is effective.

Suggest you contact a rep for a reputable company like Sandvik - I'm sure they will provide useful advice.

Milotrain - sorry about the snarky comment if it was just a misinterpretation - just trying to explain to Goldigger the apparent gap in the post that was confusing him.

Ken


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 11, 2011)

There are import face mills I have not tried any. One of the problems with this hobby is we want bigger and better tools. Not necessarily a bad thing. But the problem comes in when we try to use these bigger and better tools that are designed for bigger and better multi horsepower production machines on our fractional horsepower relatively light table top hobby prototype machines. 
you just cant pull a large 20 gang plow with a lawn tractor. You need to size the tool to the machine. and because of the limits of the hobby machines HSS steel cutters are the way to go in most cases. You can get HSS inserts here in the states. That is an option if you realy want an insert face mill 
My suggestion is make or buy a fly cutter or set. 
Tin


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## dwentz (Jun 11, 2011)

I am also looking for a good inexpensive face mill that has a MT2 mount. 
I have a Mini Mill as well as a Clausing 8520 which has the MT2 so I have standardized on on the MT2 vs the MT3 of the Mini Mill.
I would like to hear from anyone that has used a small face mill on machines these sizes and their experience.
I have flycutters but am not supper happy with them. Most of the time I just use a 3/4 inch endmill and the finish is not great. It I need a super good finish the part goes in the shaper, but it would be nice to have something nice for in the mill when the part is already in the vise are held to the table.

Dale


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## Jasonb (Jun 11, 2011)

I have the Chronos/Glanze one you link to and use it in an X3, I would not want to go any larger so you may struggle with your X2. I mostly use it for Iron Castings where there is a risk of a hard spot or welded fabrications whioch again can be a bit hard and take the edge off a HSS flycutter.

Jason


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## boxcarmj (Jun 11, 2011)

Hi! Have you seen page 15 of Engine Model Builder issue #24? This may do the job. MIKE.


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## Goldigger (Jun 11, 2011)

Is that an old issue? if so where can i get a copy?

Thanks


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## boxcarmj (Jun 11, 2011)

Not old it is the current issue, www.modelenginebuilder.com. This is a great magazine, it is for IC builders and machininst alike (I have them all) enjoy! MIKE.


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## bob ward (Jun 15, 2011)

I bought one of these a while ago, cutter, 10 inserts and delivery about $60.
http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-630/45-DEGREE-INDEXABLE-CHAMFER/Detail

Its really a chamfer mill but I use it as, and it works very well as, a face mill. At 2400RPM and a 1mm deep cut in mild steel, it removes steel effortlessly at maximum traverse speed.


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## t_ottoboni (Jun 15, 2011)

bob ward  said:
			
		

> I bought one of these a while ago, cutter, 10 inserts and delivery about $60.
> http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-630/45-DEGREE-INDEXABLE-CHAMFER/Detail
> 
> Its really a chamfer mill but I use it as, and it works very well as, a face mill. At 2400RPM and a 1mm deep cut in mild steel, it removes steel effortlessly at maximum traverse speed.



2400RPM? Isn`t that too much even for inserts on a 36mm facemill?

I have a 2 1/2" 4 TPK inserts facemill on my BF-20, and I run at 600-700RPM. I try to go easy on depth of cut: 0,5mm max and 0,1 finishing. I get great results everytime: the chips come out straw to blue colored and a mirror smooth surface.


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## Blogwitch (Jun 15, 2011)

If you want to try out tipped tooling on your machine, and don't want to spend a fortune on it, then buy yourself a Little Hogger set.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-bin/s...ARCH&SS=little+hogger&ACTION=Search&TB=A&GB=A

These items are available from US retailers, and I have been using them for many years with no problems. Maybe not up to best standards, but they will most probably be plenty good enough for you for normal work.

Bogs


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## milotrain (Jun 15, 2011)

You could easily make a face mill like this:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4719.0

Or style one off this flycutter:
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/tra...e3.nifty.com/rockhill/furaisu-17.htm&.intl=us

You could also make a face mill like this:







This one is made in a shell style, but it doesn't have to be:





Lastly Shars tools 404-1867 is a 2" face mill that takes a 3/4" arbor, costs $75.99 and uses APKT inserts with positive rake. That's pretty close to perfect. The FM90 on glacern's website is a 2.5" for $99 and is a bit better and made in the states, which is why I think it's worth the extra $25, but I'll grant that $25 is another made in the US small carbide endmill.


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## picclock (Jun 16, 2011)

@ Dwentz

>> I have flycutters but am not supper happy with them.

Have to ask why. I bought my first (and only) one super cheap to find that the MT2 taper 'wobbled' and the tool did not cut on the centre of rotation. Complained and was told to keep the tool and got credited. So I figured I'd have a go at sorting it. Taper was easy to fix, though how you can get it that wrong I've no idea. Milling the cutter head to get the correct cut position/vertical angle and to take thicker tools was hard but with a carbide endmill the job was done.

Ground up an HSS tool as in John Bogs crap O cad, and although it worked well it went blunt very quickly - probably OK on soft metals. From Lathe experience I've found that HSS steels vary - I suspect its the cobalt percentage - so it may be that the HSS steel I used was not that great either. Then, just for fun, I tried it with an indexable insert tool (from Glanze - DCMT insert) and it turned into a star. Amazing mirror finish on some chunk of mystery steel, and you can push the depth of cut until the mill complains. 

I use it a lot now for getting those really good finishes, and have recently purchased a profiling index tool (round insert) for getting best possible finish on some surfaces which need to be very flat to form a seal.

Downside is it chucks metal shavings all over the place so its a cleanup job every time its used.

It may be that your flycutters need the accuracy treatment to get them performing properly. Only other things to make better are good tram on the mill and possibly power feed on the table. 

In the hope this may help

Best Regards

picclock


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## bob ward (Jun 17, 2011)

t_ottoboni  said:
			
		

> 2400RPM? Isn`t that too much even for inserts on a 36mm facemill?



The cutting points are actually 24mm apart, at 2400RPM that is 600sfm, which is at the top end of the range. The inserts are tough, I've removed a lot of metal with the first pair of points and they are still going strong. I have another 19 pairs of tips to use up and for $60 that is a metal removal bargain. 

Its great fun to use, purple chips flying over a 2 metre diameter, and interestingly the work piece remains at room temperature, it doesn't heat up at all.


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## Goldigger (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi Picclock..
Which Glanze indexable face mill did you get?

Thanks


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## SmoggyTurnip (Jun 21, 2011)

When someone talks about a 45 degree face mill what angle does the 45 degree refer to?


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## t_ottoboni (Jun 21, 2011)

SmoggyTurnip  said:
			
		

> When someone talks about a 45 degree face mill what angle does the 45 degree refer to?



That`s a 45 degree face mill:





That`s a 90 degree face mill:





The angle refeer to the edge angle after cutting
Also, the 45 degree angle need less HP to cut, so it`s better in smaller machines.


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## SmoggyTurnip (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks for the pics. I have seen those before and I don't see any angle that looks like 45 degrees so that is why I am asking.


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## milotrain (Jun 21, 2011)

These might help


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## Goldigger (Jun 21, 2011)

Can anyone suggest a reasonably priced 45 degree face mill please?
Remember its for an SX2 so i dont want it costing as much as the mill ;D


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## Paulsv (Jun 21, 2011)

Search the term face mill at the Shars website. They have 2 inch 45 degree face mills starting at under $80.

http://www.shars.com/product_categories/search/?search=Face+mill


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## Paulsv (Jun 21, 2011)

I like this one:

http://www.shars.com/products/view/7865/2quot_45_degree_Face_Mill_SEHT_Insert


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## Goldigger (Jun 22, 2011)

Had a look on the shars site, cant find any MT3 arbors 
Other problem might be shipping costs for the US to uK..

Cheers


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## dwentz (Jun 22, 2011)

I know Tools4cheap has MT2 arbors. 

Dale


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## SmoggyTurnip (Jun 22, 2011)

milotrain  said:
			
		

> These might help



Yep that sure helps. Perfectly clear now. But now I wonder why I would want 45 degree instead of 90 degree. I wouldn't be able to turn to a shoulder. What is the advantage of the 45 degree angle?


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## milotrain (Jun 22, 2011)

Takes less HP to run a 45°. 90° takes more HP but as you said let's you mill a shoulder. 45° will led you run chamfers on outside edges so they are both quite useful.


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## Jasonb (Jun 22, 2011)

Does it really take less HP? The cutting dia of a 45deg facemill is smaller than a 90deg of teh same nominal diameter so it removes less material, for the same amount of material removed you would want a larger 45deg cutter requireing the same HP as the smaller 90deg cutter. Same HP in = same swarf out.

Goldigger, Shars postage at checkout is very high to the UK, e-mail them for a quote. I recently bought a set of broahes, checkout postage was about $150, I got it for $12.95 and the goods arrived in 4 days

Even a 2" 45deg facemill may be too big for teh SX2 as it quotes 30mm max dia for facemilling, a 2" FM will have a cutting dia of about 38mm. Also The facemills linked to from Shars all use the same picture, teh 2" one actually only has 3 inserts so you may as well use the Glanze type indexable endmills you mentioned at the start of this thread.


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## milotrain (Jun 22, 2011)

I believe it does because the tool's cutting face is technically "ramping" itself into the work. It may calculate out that because technically it's cutting less material that is the majority gain in efficiency but I don't know. Although I guess technically each insert is engaging more material than a 90° would be engaging. Dunno.

Another benefit of the 45°is that those inserts have Four cutting surfaces while the 90° inserts typically only have two, so you get twice the insert life out of a 45°.


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## Paulsv (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is KenAmetal's tech tip comparison between the two:

http://www.kennametal.com/images/pd...f;jsessionid=RGSPCISJNBLXRLAUCYPCFEVMCQFBYIV0

Here is what Glacern says:

For general purpose facing and fine finishing, the GMT FM45 nickel-plated cutters are hard to beat. 20-degree positive inserts are held in 19-degree positive inclined pockets for low-vibration cutting. Can be used on smaller machines thanks to the low horsepower requirements.

Chip-thinning from the 45-degree lead angle allows increased feedrates by 50% over 90-degree cutters. Size ANSI SE43 (ISO SE 1204) square inserts maintain chip thinning to a cutting depth of 0.250". The chamfers on the inserts provide a wiper effect to minimize surface roughness.


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## Goldigger (Jun 28, 2011)

I found that Glanze have 45 degree face mills, just waiting on a price and if they do a MT3 arbour for it..
Through Chronos (uk)

http://www.glanze.com/indexable-tool-holders/cartridges-ofmt-odse.html


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## Sshire (Jul 3, 2011)

I was pretty much all set to order the Glacern FM-45 @ $99. It does not have a shank. They do have one (R8-FM45-200) with an integral R8 shank but it is $179.99. That's now on hold til the machining fund fills up again.


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## MachineTom (Jul 3, 2011)

Some consideration for you. As that tool does not have the ability to adjust the cutting bits. A tool with the intergral shank might well be a better choice. 

Consider this intergral shank: shaft with taper axis, at 90° to cutting pockets plane.

Composit Shank: Shaft with taper, with flange 90° to axis, shaft extension parallel axis, Diameter close to bore size, Bore in tool fit to shaft, and 90° to cutting pockets, Flange face parallel to cutting pocket Plane.

If the same machines make each tool, same machinist as well which tool would be the best as an "only tool". Where I mean this is your only xD face mill. As the milled surface finish is a direct result of the runout of the tool, all other conditions being equal.

I have a 3" intergral shank 5 insert cutter bit, chinese face mill, VERY good surface finish, I have a 6" monster with 15 adjustable inserts thats only a little bit better.


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## Goldigger (Oct 27, 2011)

I was just browsing through eBay and came across ctc tools..anybody have any experience with their tools?
Found this facemill which looks interesting..any opinions?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-MM-IND...3?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item2314c78c63

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW...314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item231575f10a





Cheers


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## mzetati (Oct 28, 2011)

same store as http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/StoreFront ??
If answer is yes, I've bought stuff from them on several occasions, with no regrets.

Marcello


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## ShedBoy (Oct 28, 2011)

I have spent money with this company numerous times. Bought a set of ER32 collets for the price I could get two locally. ER32 to 5c collet holder wich has a total runout of 0.0001 that was advertised at 0.0005. Just got a set of of end mills and also a set of ball nose mills for a more than reasonable price. Big thumbs up from me. There is also a company called YSS Tools who are a good bunch also. Oh also got a full set of mod 1 cutters for $80 to my door. No regrets at all and fast delivery.
Brock


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## shred (Oct 28, 2011)

I use the CTC ER-16 and ER-20 collets a lot and they work well. I've not tried their face-mill or inserts.


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## bob ward (Nov 11, 2011)

I've bought from CTC several times and have never been disappointed, and as a bonus their stuff comes in the cutest little parcels.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=50810

An update on the cutter I mentioned back in June in post 25. I've given that cutter a lot of work since then, it gets all the crappy jobs, it gets to clean up the mystery metal that is pitted, painted, rusty, welded, oxy cut, the inserts are tough little beggars whatever they are made from.


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