# Are people just in it for the admiration?



## Blogwitch (Aug 17, 2016)

I have just being going over some posts that I replied to before my latest bout of maladies, and so couldn't pick them up earlier, and boy do some people get upset when you tell them the truth.

I always thought that this, and other sites like it, should be for the furtherance of knowledge, not for withholding it and then claiming glory for the finished article. If you show an engine build or some sort of tooling then what is shown should be fully explained and also expect to answer questions if the explanation isn't quite clear enough.

My gripe is about people who post a load of pictures in a strip with no explanation of what is going on in the shown pictures.

Being a little experienced in this game, I can usually understand what is being shown, but when a novice or someone with little experience looks at them, they may as well be pictures of wet paint running down a door.

It is always better to over explain what you are doing, that way, even a complete novice should be able to understand and so further his/her knowledge.

Oh!, and the reply from someone whom I pulled up for doing such a thing.

Fine.  Screw it.

I'm not really interested in doing a full, in depth build log at this  time.  It can take significant effort and this engine is just a little  side project. 

So I guess I won't be putting up any more pictures.  If all I'm going to get is complaints, it's not worth it.

Please don't tell me how long and how much effort an in depth build takes, I have been doing it for years, and hopefully, because of the text I put in amongst the pictures has helped a lot of people over the years. When I was in full swing I was spending up to 8 hours a day/night getting things ready to be posted, and that doesn't include the machining or setting up.

Also there are no such things as little side projects that don't need explaining, everything, including how  to screw a nut and bolt together is good information if it is done correctly.

Who's complaining? I definitely am not, I'm just telling the truth, what is being shown is glory gaining crap that benefits no one other than the original poster.

John


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## vederstein (Aug 17, 2016)

Sir,

If you look at some of my other builds, I have done in depth build logs.  I have no interest in doing an in depth build log for this particular engine.

So yes,  If I put up pictures and get condemned for it, I'll stop putting up pictures.  You can see from the replies some other people found the posting useful.  Perhaps not as much as a fully documented build, but helpful.

You seem offended about putting up original content without narration that meets your expectations.  For that I pity you.

You seem to think that I'm posting for "glory."  I wouldn't call it glory.  I would call it laziness. Several of my build threads testify that I can and have posted with details.

Perhaps instead of complaining, you can just not read the thread.

...Ved.


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## cheese.cake.701 (Aug 17, 2016)

John, no offence but I think you need to pull your head in a bit and get off your high horse, your posts over the last month or so have been getting almost quite aggressive and definitely uncalled for, there are much better ways to talk to people. I can say without any doubt that I enjoyed vederstein's post, and gained something from it. And If just one person can gain something from it, it's worth it. 

Also, your years of in depth posting would probably be more helpful if you hadn't chucked a hissy fit a few years ago and deleted your pictures.


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## BobsModels (Aug 17, 2016)

Hi

I would like to put my .02c worth on this. 

First, I appreciate every modeler who takes the time to put anything up, I have always learned something from the postings. I have never met anyone I cannot learn something from no matter what the method of presentation. 

Second, I have done things in many ways on different sites. A full blown Rider build with the novice as a target lots of pictures and PDF drawings:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,3441.0.html

I also tried a method of posting a few pictures of a finished product and had the write-up in dropbox download:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fa1kltkhi0l2xbk/Pro%202000%20Installation.pdf?dl=0

These are a lot of work but I was interested in doing it and hoped folks would find it useful.

My next project will likely be more photos than words but I hope again they will be useful. 

I repeat I support all of those out there sharing information. If we all share no matter what format we all learn. If anyone feels intimidated about sharing we ALL lose.

So keep all those photos and information / questions flowing, or we may as well close down the model sites!

Bob


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## RobWilson (Aug 18, 2016)

A picture is worth a thousand words .

RobWilson


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## Jasonb (Aug 18, 2016)

Totally agree with Rob, there are a lot of people who may find writing about things difficult, I would rather have a batch of pictures than nothing.

8 Hrs a day posting, so that means we will only get build threads from retired of duffers who can't find anything to do with their time. What about those with a full time job, family, other hobbies, etc are we to banish them as they don't have time to write up a full blow build.

Worse thing is when someone spends all that time posting words and pictures and then gets into yet another huff and removes all the photos from their posts before moving onto another forum, thats more selfish than not posting.

J


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## AlbertdeWitte (Aug 18, 2016)

Guys

I can only say the following. I am not into engine building that long and with my little experience here I have noticed builders posting their builds in many different ways. Spending time and money by all to do so should be respected. I can even critique my own posts for lacking details during the build. We are all here for the same thing and that is to share our experiences and also learn from one another. 

I must also submit that I have many other hobbies and a full time work and I noticed that I dont have time to read other threads during my builds because it takes time to upload photos. 

Just my .02c


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## Blogwitch (Aug 18, 2016)

Now for a bit of defensive work.

I never removed my pictures, that was done for me by Photobucket when they lost them all due to an upgrade. 
I have been hinting for ages to be allowed into all my old posts to get them reinstalled as luckily, I had nearly all of them on my computer, and I then reuploaded them (many thousands), they actually now all have new URL's, but that seems to fall on deaf ears.
So on that score, please wind YOUR necks in, as it looks like you don't read everything, my previous explanations in other posts about the pictures tells all.

Madmodder was another site that was hit with the same problem at the same time. I left there because of a certain moderator was abusing a beginner, and he thought it was his god given right to do so, and after a lot of defensive banter, he still would not apologise to the poor beginner.

One thing I personally won't tolerate is belittling a beginner, which ALL of you posting pictures with no explanation are doing without actually realising it. 

I started a new website called MEM, have I removed pictures from there? I could easily have done.

And that brings me to why I said what I did.

MEM was dumped from my list of sites because of two things, and the same thing is starting to happen here. The first was that it was taken over by a few, shall we call them 'elite' modellers, who thought their back sides were perfume factories and they ignored requests to keep things simple, purely for the benefit of the less experienced people who were joining, and they are the second reason, they were being classed as not worth talking to or taking any notice of what they were doing. Novices, in my opinion should be the first people that are considered when making a posting, most of them are the future of a site like this, and I know this for a fact, because I have seen people on here rise through the years from being raw beginners to become very competent model engineers.
If you just post pictures, how is a complete beginner to know what is going on? All he/she sees is a type of tool (not explained) being stuffed into a piece of shaped metal (no explanation of what it is).
It is OK for you people who are pulling me to bits over my drawing attention to their plight, but like me, I don't need an explanation of what is going on, because I already know.
So it is up to you knowledgeable people to start to explain things a lot better.

Jason, I was referring to my past builds where I was sometimes up almost all night preparing posts, and I was working then, but I still did it.

I am not putting down all the experienced people, you only have to look at a few of the builds that are going on, you only have to see what Michael is doing with the Merlin build. OK maybe a little technical for some people, but everything is explained if you care to read it carefully.

Do what I do at this time, just put a one liner between pictures just to tell those not in the know what is going on and why it was done that way. It only takes a few seconds out of your life and it would make the post more enjoyable. If you are too lazy to do that, I have no real answer, other than you should go to your doctor to get a B12 injection, to give your body a boost.

I am not apologising to anyone for my words, as I consider them truthful and to the point purely for the furtherance of knowledge for the beginners who reside here.

If you want me to p**s off, then say so, otherwise look to your own failings and wind YOUR heads in. 

All I will say, you who have replied in this post and saying that pictures only are OK, you are definitely supporting non transfer of knowledge purely because you are only thinking from your perspective, no-one elses.


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## jayville (Aug 18, 2016)

Hey boys..isn,t modelling supposed to be for fun...it is to me .  Clem


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 18, 2016)

Just my two pennyworth but anyone in it just for the admiration is far more likely to give a full in depth build commentary than some good photos and a brief outline. 
I think background is nice but titles for photos should suffice if that's what the author has time and inclination for, and if anyone wants to know "How was that bit in the 4th photo achieved?" they should ask! 
If every build includes details for every step then anyone who knows which end of a file to hold and whether they ought to use a handle on it might quickly become fatigued with "Egg sucking for Grannies 101" ;-) 
But everyone is different, and surely that's a good thing? 

 - Nick


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## Davewild (Aug 18, 2016)

Blogwitch
I find your first post very offensive.

Dave


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## abby (Aug 18, 2016)

I have to agree with John , pictures without some commentary explain very little , yes a picture says a thousand words but only if it has a few to get it started.
Do people post for kudos ? well yes I think they do , and if their article is well written and entertaining then more kudos to them.
It is said that everyone has a book inside them so if you feel that you have one waiting to get out do it here , but some photos too please , and don't be offended by the critics , it goes with the territory.
If we are having our 2 cents worth ( I'm a Brit but didn't say two penn'orth ) my main dislike is the "expert" who has worked as a toolmaker all his life and tells you how to do a job with all the equipment you do not posess ,
he is almost as bad as the guy who says "well I don't really know but you could try ....." and the people who insist on replying to a questioning thread that has already been answered by ten others.
It could be a joke "how many model engineers does it take to drill a hole ?" ten ! one to do the drilling and nine to tell him how"
Model making , for most , is a hobby. I know that some members of this forum make their living from this hobby so they have different criteria.
There are no disiplines in model engineering , you achieve the best result you can with what is available to you . If you want to countersink a hole with a drill because that is what you have , do it and put your finger up to the people who say the angle is wrong and you should buy a countersink , likewise to the people who insist that a lathe tool MUST have this many degrees rake to work because "it is written" .
We learn from experience , yes we can find pointers but often they point in the wrong direction.
It is also very likely that with such a large membership there are several persons with mental illness posting so don't get upset by anything you read online.
Dan.


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## rodw (Aug 18, 2016)

Blogwitch, I think your post was rude and offensive and deserves an apology. To have the affront to raise a separate thread to complain when somebody basically told you to pull you horns in belies belief. Personally,  I am tired of mundane off topic posts fom a few retired folk on this forum and wonder why I bother logging in most days just to read drivel from serial posters. I am sure many others feel the same and are also switching off.

You forget that some of us are working still and time is very precious to us. I have spent many hundreds of hours on a project designing and machining that I have not posted any photos of purely because I was not confident it would turn out given my skill level.. Now I know it will work, but can see it will be pointless sharing pictures of it because there won't  be a blow by by blow description of each step.

Personally, I think the mods should delete this thread and issue appropriate stern warnings as this is what I would do if i was a moderator on this forum.


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## RobWilson (Aug 18, 2016)

The arrogance of the OP , 

What gives  the OP  the right to think that he the OP can  dictate to another  fellow member how that member  should post up his content/photos  on his own or any thread .    And then to accuses that member of  glory hunting !


Maybe there is a pattern forming ,in that the OP has had so many issues with so many forums , I mean it takes something to get booted off ones own form. 


Rob Wilson


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## dnalot (Aug 18, 2016)

John reminds me of my father. I dreaded his visits to my shop because he was only there to criticize, never a word of encouragement, never a compliment.  

I feel like this thread was a dig at me as I am one that doesn't give long winded explanations along with the photos I upload. I think in future I will not post as often as my communication skills are not up to the standards many expect. 

Mark T


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 18, 2016)

abby said:


> It is said that everyone has a book inside them



Very true, and what it is and where it is lodged varies from person to person ;-)


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## mjonkman (Aug 18, 2016)

I'm working on my first build thread at the moment so a little different perspective. The single most frustrating thing I find with the way the forum post editor works is the inability (or at least I haven't found a way) to embed the picture in line as I'm writing. 

The picture button only wants a link to an existing picture somewhere already posted on the web. Well that creates the scenario where you host the pictures yourself on site xyz and then link to the pictures. So you are at the mercy of site xyz to maintain them. Their site crashes your pictures are history.

The attachment button allows you to insert a large number of pictures as attachments at the end of the post. But from a writing perspective I would prefer to write a short blurb, put in a picture, write more, insert picture, wash rinse and repeat. 

I find the only way to sort of work around that is to write a bit, attach some pictures, post. Create new post, write some add pictures post. wash rinse and repeat. It works but it'd be nice to inline things. 

I'd like to keep the pictures as part of the forum so that if the proverbial bus hits me, the pictures remain and won't get deleted or abandoned by my wife or kids cleaning up my presence on the Internet. 

So I guess what I'm saying is the awkwardness of the flow for writing posts can to some extent contribute to how detailed some of the build threads are. 

I do agree however that its nice to see pictures of machine setups as well as the finished pieces. I'd say 75+% of the challenge in making any part is figuring out the right way to approach holding as well as machining (order of operations), etc. Though as a relative newbie, sometimes its embarrassing to do something and then realize as your doing it, that there is a much much better way to do it. Do you want to post that picture and discuss it or do you want to sweep it under the rug and hope no one asks as long as the part got made. I wouldn't fault someone for that. 

Kind of a little bit off the original topic.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


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## stevehuckss396 (Aug 18, 2016)

Blogwitch said:


> My gripe is about people who post a load of pictures in a strip with no explanation of what is going on in the shown pictures.




GUILTY!

I assure you it will never happen again.


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## mayhugh1 (Aug 18, 2016)

Wait a second!!!! ... Let's don't all go jumping off a cliff because of an opinion and comment from a single poster.
'Michael'


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## lathe nut (Aug 18, 2016)

Fellows I am really new to the business of having time to starts some builds that amount to anything, by the time I get my machines ready to work and copy and save all that I can get to become more knowledgeable of what to do and how to do it, I am one who needs the pictures and the words to explain, I can look at a drawing but I don't understand sometime how the piece is held to do the work, you all we need each other to make this happen let's overcome this and continue to do what you all do best "Show and Tell" I do appreciate all of you and I have not stated so, so now I am, please work through all of this, Joe, Lathe Nut


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## kuhncw (Aug 18, 2016)

I agree with what Michael said.  Let's not get carried away over one comment.  This is a good forum with a lot of good information and help.
Let this go and let's get on with model building.

Chuck


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## windy (Aug 19, 2016)

Engineering forums I have found very informative and helpful but sometimes Victor Meldrew appears 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/onefootinthegrave/
At times I wonder if I&#8217;m going that way as all aspects of Model and full size engineering appeals to me and my grump is I have not the patience to create some of the wondrous creations.
I also appreciate not every one has the knowledge or finance and when experts pull their efforts to pieces Victor Meldrew appears.
*Genuine helpful advice is always welcome but it&#8217;s the way it&#8217;s communicated to the persons concerned.*
Not everyone is computer literate and can find it difficult I know people myself included with limited education but have had a go at their hobbies or sports.

Victor Meldrew ( alias Windy)


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## John S (Aug 19, 2016)

I don't believe it


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## johnny1320 (Aug 19, 2016)

personally I mostly look at pictures as I am a visual person, I say you want to write a novel on the build do it, if you don't then don't.... If some people don't get whats in the picture then maybe the project is not at a level they are at yet.


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## stevehuckss396 (Aug 19, 2016)

mayhugh1 said:


> Wait a second!!!! ... Let's don't all go jumping off a cliff because of an opinion and comment from a single poster.
> 'Michael'




Oh i'm not jumping off any cliff over this non-sense. I have done the "build log" when building the V8. It's a lot of extra work. I think people should post what they want to post.

 If a beginner, or even myself has a question about how something is done, I simply ask the question. If a beginner asks me a question, and I don't care how simple the question, I answer it. I remember when I got started and barely knew how to turn the machine on. I don't believe that we on this forum are responsible to detail everything we do. I think the responsibility lies with the person who doesn't know to ask the question. 

Now I also believe that if a question is asked it should be answered with respect to the asker so to not belittle or make them feel as if they should have not asked. 

I show my stuff at model engine shows and talk to people all day long. Some people are fired up as hell and just happy to be there and talk face to face about something they want to make or try making. You can see the Enthusiasm on there face and hear it in there voice. That's how I picture everybody on the forums when answering questions.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 19, 2016)

I kinda like the Glory Grabbing myself-----


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## bazmak (Aug 19, 2016)

I agree,sharing your work with others is at least 50% of the enjoyment
I try to spend a lot of time using text and photos to describe what I have done
I have found that the posts that interest me most are,not too technical,simply
described with lots of photos,hence that is what I do.
With regards to the original blogwitch post.It seems some people have taken
offence,however in his defence I do not feel it was a personal attack on
anyone just maybe over the top comments.IT IS TOO EASY FOR PEOPLE TO OFFENCE WHEN NON IS INTENDED.As to blogwitch please keep up your posts
I am keen to follow your shed build


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## Foozer (Aug 19, 2016)

"If you show an engine build or some sort of tooling then what is shown  should be fully explained and also expect to answer questions if the  explanation isn't quite clear enough." -Blogwitch-

I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it.   
  &#8213;     Abraham Lincoln


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## vederstein (Aug 19, 2016)

bazmak said:


> With regards to the original blogwitch post.It seems some people have taken
> offence,however in his defence I do not feel it was a personal attack on
> anyone just maybe over the top comments.



For the most part I agree with you except it was _my post_ that was highlighted in red and my build thread that started all this.

At this point I'm just very amused by the whole thing.  I was accused of posting for glory.  This thread has received far more responses than any of my build threads, detailed or not.

Can we please close this thread and get on with our lives?

...Ved.


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## bruedney (Aug 19, 2016)

this thread is one of the reasons I personally prefer MEM over this and the Model Engineer UK Forum. Too many grumpy people. Just be happy with what people post and stop whining

Bruce


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## Blogwitch (Aug 22, 2016)

Despite all the backstabbing, if just one person gets the message to start to put print with pictures, then this post has achieved what I started out to do.

Think about other people rather than just yourself.

John


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## Davewild (Aug 22, 2016)

Blogwitch said:


> Despite all the backstabbing, if just one person gets the message to start to put print with pictures, then this post has achieved what I started out to do.
> 
> Think about other people rather than just yourself.
> 
> John



Unbelievable!!!!


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 22, 2016)

However you choose to disseminate details of your projects is good. 
I like minimalist, a set of photos with titles is good, if the author has a good turn of phrase a little prose with humour doesn't go amiss. 
I wouldn't be surprised to see the backlash to a thread like this being more photos with less text ;-) 

 - Nick


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## Blogwitch (Aug 22, 2016)

That just shows the mentality of some people, they don't give a s*** about other people, especially beginners, all they are after is glory and nothing else.

People who care show as much as possible to help others less knowledgeable along the way.

I won't reply to this post any more, as it seems you are too thick skinned and selfish to change, so you all know who is doing this, so it is up to those people to start to get themselves being recognised for what they do for other people rather than what they can do for themselves.
Mind you, I suppose if they started paying for the amount of text you put in a post, those who put nothing normally would fill the pages up with any old crap.


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## GailInNM (Aug 22, 2016)

I am locking this thread.
It is starting to degenerate into personal attacks and not discussion.
Gail in NM
Administrator


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