# milling machine advice



## timar (Dec 19, 2009)

hi all, i am looking for advice on what size milling machine to purchase. i have been looking at the lathemaster lm25l or the zay7045fg. are these machines the right size range for model building or too large? thanks for your help. also, any advice on a first build plans or kit? new to this hobby with no maching experience.


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## black85vette (Dec 19, 2009)

Hello and welcome. I don't know if you can go too big on a mill.  There are a number of folks that have big full size commercial milling machines.  The zay7045fg is used by members on this forum with success. For most of us it is a matter of not going too small due to the space or cost limitations.

Tell us a little more about yourself. Do you have machine shop experience, a lathe, a shop? This is a very helpful forum. If you start an engine project be sure to start a post and let us follow along.  wEc1


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## Ken Bartlett (Dec 19, 2009)

I would say buy the biggest, most expensive, feature rich machine you can get! No just kidding.  . I too have just recently, within the last 2 months, got into this hobby as well. I bought the HF 7 x 10 mini lather and the HF X2 mini mill. And in that short time I already wish for machines with larger capacity and more power. Of course you will always lust over bigger and better things. Youll have to take in account not only the price of the machine, but also your work area as well. If you have a small extra bedroom thats intented to be your work area you can not get the biggest and the baddest. Go for what fits for now, and learn on it until you outgrow it. Also remeber, as I quickly did, that buying the machine is the very first step. There are still alot of "basic" tools you need to get so you can play. Such as a vise, indicator, mag base, drills/taps, collets etc. Not including the material for you project as well. So budget well for these must have items. Good luck with your choice and welcome to the community.


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 19, 2009)

In general get the biggest and best you can afford and have room for. I have and x-2 and back it up with an atlas 7" shaper. If you can afford and x-3 they are nicer machines. With a bit more capability. Many folk like the Sherline and Taigs as well. 
Tin


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## Kermit (Dec 19, 2009)

Keep the weight of these things in mind as well.

I've got an extended version of the 9x20 lathe and its a tad over 300 lbs. It took four of us to manuever it gently over the hold down studs. (and do it safely by hand)


and looking at the larger hobby sized mills I see weights of 400 to 900 pounds!

good luck to you with whatever machine your choose, and welcome to the forums.
Kermit


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## hammers-n-nails (Dec 19, 2009)

the only time your going to regret getting a bigger machine is when your trying to get it in place, also keep in mind is that 1.5hp is about the biggest motor you can run off a standard receptical, at least the way we wire houses in the US, and thats if the machine is the only thing running on that circut, 2hp is pushing it. unless your in a situation where you can run a new dedicated circut. also as was already mentioned, dont spend all your budget on machines because all the tooling can easily equal the machines price.


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## shred (Dec 19, 2009)

Bigger is usually better... (until it exceeds your budget / moving / installing limits), but look around on here and there's some fantastic work being done on Taig, Sherline and Unimat-size machines as well, so don't be bothered if a full Bridgeport won't fit.


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## vlmarshall (Dec 19, 2009)

A bigger machine has the mass to take bigger cuts with more accuracy. However, I really enjoy my little Sherline mill.
I still haven't decided on a lathe.


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## woodchip85 (Dec 19, 2009)

whatever you end up getting you still need to tool it up, so take the cost of other things into consideration as well as its pointless having the machine if you cant do anything with it.


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## Jared (Dec 19, 2009)

I bought an X2 mini mill a few years ago not knowing anything about milling. It's a good machine to learn how to run a mill and to learn what to look for in a bigger mill. But if I was to do it again I'd go with an X3 or maybe a little bigger with more rigidity. And nothing with a round column.


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## timar (Dec 20, 2009)

thanks to all who replied. i wanted to make sure my bigger is better mentality (heavy eqpt. background ) didn't get the best of me. i'll stick to under 2 hp and should be ok. thanks again,tim


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## D0ZX (Dec 20, 2009)

Tinmar

I'm just getting into the model hobby but have been using an old P&W mill from the 60's that was worn beyond use for other projects.
I just purchased a ZX45 from Wholesale tool and am really happy with it. Wholesale tool has 15% off in store now if you are near one of their locations.
I will warn you that this machine is heavy! I used my skidsteer loader to move it to the walkout basement door, then roll it to it's destination on a heavy duty stand that I built.


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## Alan J. Richer (Dec 22, 2009)

One thing to remember as well is the value in old iron. My shop (SB9 lathe, Myford ML10, Fox milling machine) is state of the art...for 1950.

None of it is fancy, but these machines will shift steel all day every day as long as you keep them clean and keep their oil cups full. I've done production work on this setup and as long as you can handle the shift in orientation in working with a horizontal mill the extra rigidity is fantastic.

None of these machines were expensive - the mill cost me 150 bucks minus the motor, and the SB9 was a freebie (!!) out of Craigslist. The Myford is a cherished gift from my uncle in the UK...that one would have been serious money if purchased.


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## Troutsqueezer (Dec 22, 2009)

FWIW, I have a 7x10 HF lathe and mini mill and don't wish for larger machines. I'm in no hurry to make my engines. Small bites of metal are just fine with me. I can make mistakes slower that way. Thm: As with a lot of hobbies, much of the fun stems from just thinking about them. 

I also enjoy astronomy and have a telescope and many will tell you that unless you have a massive telescope with expensive CCD's hooked up to it, what you actually _see_ through the scope is not that impressive and much of the time looks like a very small gray smear (there are exceptions, like globular clusters). It's what you are _thinking_ about what you are seeing that gives you the enjoyment. 

-trout


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## mklotz (Dec 22, 2009)

> FWIW, I have a 7x10 HF lathe and mini mill and don't wish for larger machines. I'm in no hurry to make my engines. Small bites of metal are just fine with me. I can make mistakes slower that way. thumbup As with a lot of hobbies, much of the fun stems from just thinking about them.



Boy, truer words were never spoken. I wonder how many tiny parts have been scrapped because novices are given "professional" advice about speeds, feeds, DOC, carbide, etc. based on shop practice where moving the maximum amount of metal in the minimum amount of time is the guiding principle. If you're making one-off miniatures, the fundamental concerns are entirely different and much of the professional advice is largely irrelevant.

And your remark about thinking being part of the fun is the key to distinguishing a pastime from a hobby. I've had a number of retirees ask me about what they should take up as a hobby to wile away their new-found free time. I tell them that the most essential element of a hobby is the ability to "work on it" when you're not actually "doing it". You can't improve your golf game while waiting in the dentist's office but you can puzzle out that workholding arrangement for the lathe or that locating jig for the mill. It's this mental involvement that keeps us alert and involved. There's nothing sadder than older people who have both retired from work and retired from thinking. IMO, it goes a long way toward explaining why so many people die within a year or two of retiring from their day job.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 22, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> There's nothing sadder than older people who have both retired from work and retired from thinking. IMO, it goes a long way toward explaining why so many people die within a year or two of retiring from their day job.



I agree. That's a major reason why I felt it was time to find a hobby...or rather...jump in and start fulfilling some childhood dreams.

I often think of my uncle...for years he just sat on the front porch watching the world go by. There wasn't much to see.


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## shred (Dec 22, 2009)

Stock is much cheaper and easier to get in small sizes as well. Thinking about it some more, I would never have started with the machines I have now; they're just too big and too much commitment before I knew I really wanted to get into this. There's a lot to be said for 'starter' machine tools, though I still prefer the big guys now.

As a random coincidence, I got the following quote e-mailed to me just a few minutes ago:

"I no longer work for anything but the sensation I have while working."

 -Albert Giacometti


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## Alan J. Richer (Dec 22, 2009)

Geeze, make a guy feel wanted... 

The point I was trying to make is that so-called "professional" gear is often available inexpensively in reasonably good condition, and pretty-much can eliminate the issues of column flex and the like. I was not dissing small machines - I'm lucky enough to have the space for them, and the need for some of the parts I make to feed my other addiction (Brit cars).

Trust me, I understand small machines - the ML10 is not a large machine (though a lot bigger than a Unimat or Sherline). The SB is a beast compared to the ML10, and can handle work just as small. 

I have done very fine/small work on the horizontal as well. One can do small work on a large machine, but the opposite is often difficult/dangerous.

            Alan


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## fdew (Dec 22, 2009)

There is a shop nearby that makes nothing but tiny parts most much smaller then a pencil eraser, none bigger then a 1 in cube.
 They have done this for many years, and all of there machines are standard size. (Bridgeport, Hardinge, ETC)

Frank


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## mklotz (Dec 22, 2009)

Alan,

There seems to be a bit of confusion. I'm not putting down professional "machinery" (assuming one has the expertise to evaluate it and refurbish it). Rather, my difficulty is with professional "practice" applied to hobby machining.

The newcomer has enough to worry about without trying to get everything done at the highest metal removal rate or with the oversimplified approximation that may be ok for 24 inch bolt circles on oil well pipe flanges but is too inaccurate for a model engine with a 4 inch flywheel. Much of the professional practice does not translate well into the hobby venue - especially so when described by old-timers who are unaware of all the internal caveats they are using to make the method work. 

In fact, that's why fora like this one are so important. Advice from other amateurs who never served time in a professional shop is often more targeted and sympathetic than what one gets from the pros.


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## mcr (Dec 22, 2009)

Santa came early. The tinsel is to hide it from the wife as it's sitting in the dinning room I think I might have got away with it.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 22, 2009)

Congratulations mcr.

But you're a poor soul if you think you got away with anything. ;D


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## lathe nut (Dec 22, 2009)

Timar, I have the Zay 7032G, from Harbor Freight, I love it and just recently got the X2 did not use it yet, it sure is cute next the bigger mill.


MCR, Merry Christmas what a nice gift


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## cobra428 (Dec 22, 2009)

lathe nut.
I have the same mill....I luv mine too. Power feed and DRO oh baby!






Tony


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## Troutsqueezer (Dec 22, 2009)

Alan J. Richer  said:
			
		

> and pretty-much can eliminate the issues of column flex and the like. I was not dissing small machines - I'm lucky enough to have the space for them, and the need for some of the parts I make to feed my other addiction (Brit cars).



Perhaps one man's issues are another man's challenge? To be honest, I've not seen where column flex on the HF is really an issue in practice. Granted, I'm still a newbie but the parts I've made so far are pretty darn accurate. 

-trout


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## Blogwitch (Dec 23, 2009)

I showed these pictures many moons ago on here, but I think that they have a relevance to this post.

This was a nearly 7ft long chopper frame that had already been dragged around the local machine shops, and been laughed out of the door.
Then it eventually ended up at my door.

This is my old mill set up, as I now have a much larger one, but it did jobs that people thought were impossible.







The mill was really pushed to the limits to be able to get the cutter in and do the job. But it did it.







Machining problems are a state of mind. If you think they can't be done on small machinery, then think again. 
If you can get the job on the table, and squeeze a cutter in, Then you should be able to succeed.
You are not going after speed records, but to get the job done. Carefull cutting, and taking your time will always prevail in the end.

It is not the size of the machine that usually causes the problem, but a negative attitude towards what you want to achieve.

On my large machine, I can easily rough off 5mm at a time, on a small machine only 1/20th of that, but who's counting? 
It is nice having large machinery, but not a necessity. You should make do with what you can afford, and what will fit into your shop. 

I only bought larger machines in for production work, and the opportunity to carry out my love of making small engines when time allowed. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you see it, life's little problems got the better of me, and I have ended up with big machines that will now no longer be used for production work.

Do please take notice of what people are saying about tooling. The machines can almost be classed as a small part of the cost. Tooling costs can become very high, just because of the nature of some of the jobs you may need to do. Start off with the bare minimum, and gradually build up from that. I have been doing this for over 40 years now, and there is still tooling I would like to own, but have managed to get by without it. 
A lot of the fancy gizmos you can definitely do without, I've got loads of the damned things I have collected over the years and wasted good money on, but there are times that a little extra bit of specialist tooling can work wonders.

Marv's quote



> I tell them that the most essential element of a hobby is the ability to "work on it" when you're not actually "doing it". You can't improve your golf game while waiting in the dentist's office but you can puzzle out that workholding arrangement for the lathe or that locating jig for the mill. It's this mental involvement that keeps us alert and involved.



Is more important than anything else, just like what I said earlier about machining jobs being a state of mind.


Blogs


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## lathe nut (Dec 23, 2009)

here's mine yes there are nice, what type of power feed do you have, home made or bought.

Marve, looks like anything can be done on one if the fellow thinks it through, you photo is the proof.

both of you have nice looking shops, glad for you, Lathe Nut


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## reggie98 (Dec 25, 2009)

If you have no machining experience, one way to save yourself: time; money; frustration, is to take an adult school Vo Tech or Community Colege machine shop class. Learn first hand, using the schools machines and tools, pick the instructors brains, etc. What you gain will probably help you in making your machinery choices.


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