# Linux "Q4OS"



## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

For the benefit of those reading the old thread, and want to try Linux rather than be subject to Msux foibles there are the links again.

Q4OS - desktop operating system

I use this one,

Q4OS Centaurus, Trinity, live - 64bit / x64 ... 719 MBytes

Download the "Live CD iso image" and burn it to a blank CD.  To use it place the CD in your CD drive and tell the computer to boot from the CD.  Many machines, including mine, will automatically find and boot from the CD drive.

Loading isn't quick because everything has to be run from the CD but if you have enough memory to load the kernel and the desktop everything will be much quicker.

NOTE:  You cannot save anything to an already written CD, but Linux will recognize a USB memory stick and happily write to that.

I will try and assist with questions, but do read the help files, usually the last item on the menu bar.


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## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> For the benefit of those reading the old thread, and want to try Linux rather than be subject to Msux foibles there are the links again.
> 
> Q4OS - desktop operating system
> 
> I use this one,
> 
> Q4OS Centaurus, Trinity, live - 64bit / x64 ... 719 MBytes
> 
> Download the "Live CD iso image" and burn it to a blank CD.  To use it place the CD in your CD drive and tell the computer to boot from the CD.  Many machines, including mine, will automatically find and boot from the CD drive.
> 
> Loading isn't quick because everything has to be run from the CD but if you have enough memory to load the kernel and the desktop everything will be much quicker.
> 
> NOTE:  You cannot save anything to an already written CD, but Linux will recognize a USB memory stick and happily write to that.
> 
> I will try and assist with questions, but do read the help files, usually the last item on the menu bar.


I thimpfk I downloaded that one, Centaurus, to try, but I also downloaded Plasma.  What is th e difference if you know?  I haven't installed any yet.  Since I have a relatively small SSD "hard drive", only 1/4 TB, I thimpfk I will install it on a thumbdrive and test the two systems that way.  Have you recently used any other OSs?  I tested out a Suse OS a couple years ago, it was a new, free one, but I preferred my older 9.2 version.  I thimpfk I also bought a BYTE mag a few years ago because it had a bundle of CDs with different versions of LINUX and I wanted to see what they were like.  Interesting, but I still preferred my 9..2--probably just because I was used to it and knew how to get around in it.  How do you boot up?  do you have it installed on your HD or do you use a thumb or CD?


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## BaronJ

Hi Richard,

I don't use "Plasma" I've never tried it, I use "Trinity".

You don't have to install anything, just burn the ISO that you download and it all runs from the CD.  It installs nothing on your computer unless you tell it to.

I have it Installed on my HDD, but used to run it from the CD and still do occasionally.  You cannot get a virus installed to an already written CD !


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## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> I don't use "Plasma" I've never tried it, I use "Trinity".
> 
> You don't have to install anything, just burn the ISO that you download and it all runs from the CD.  It installs nothing on your computer unless you tell it to.
> 
> I have it Installed on my HDD, but used to run it from the CD and still do occasionally.  You cannot get a virus installed to an already written CD !


My understanding is tht Linux is almost impossible to get a virus anyway.  Is that still true?


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## aarggh

Richard Hed said:


> My understanding is tht Linux is almost impossible to get a virus anyway.  Is that still true?


It's many orders of magnitude more reliable and safer than Windows, but if it isn't patched and ports on a firewall are open it can be just as vulnerable.

However, I'd say a mis-configured firewall would be the far more likely attack scenario. It's staggering how quickly ports start getting scanned on the net once it's online.

One of the many reasons Linux is so good, is that it gives you unlimited access to look under the hood to see everything that's going on, and many great analysis tools to do that with.


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

In my opinion the web browser is the weakest link !

If you think about it you actively visit a web site and in most cases have to accept cookies that are placed on your machine in order to view the site.  Also in Msux you have little control over where those cookies are placed and what data they contain.  In many cases cookies get placed on your machine whether you want them or not.  I've found in many cases if you refuse a cookie one gets placed on your machine anyway, I imagine telling the web site that you have refused them !

At least in Firefox the cookies stay in one place and can be inspected and deleted as you wish.  I have my Firefox set up for "Private Browsing"  this means that cookies and site data gets deleted when the browser is closed, reducing greatly the amount of data stored and the associated risks.


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## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> In my opinion the web browser is the weakest link !
> 
> If you think about it you actively visit a web site and in most cases have to accept cookies that are placed on your machine in order to view the site.  Also in Msux you have little control over where those cookies are placed and what data they contain.  In many cases cookies get placed on your machine whether you want them or not.  I've found in many cases if you refuse a cookie one get placed on your machine anyway, I imagine telling the web site that you have refused them !
> 
> At least in Firefox the cookies stay in one place and can be inspected and deleted as you wish.  I have my Firefox set up for "Private Browsing"  this means that cookies and site data gets deleted when the browser is closed, reducing greatly the amount of data stored and the associated risks.


Thanx for that.  I know cookies do several things.  For places that one visits often, information is pre"cookied" in order to not have to down load that information at viewing time.  I also know that cookies are used for spying on the customer.  I doesn't mind my bank having cookies but gog and magog--I don'tw want their cookies at all--not at all and if their sh*tty site cannot accomodate me without cookies, then I don't want their business or what ever it is they are trying to sell me.  Worse yet is gog spies on people, sees what they are looking at, then sells that information to similar sites.  It's disgusting.  If those sh*tbags are going to sell MY stuff, I want a huge share of that $$$$.   Remember a couple decades ago, some skier crashed at the olympics but the news people played it over and over with out his permission as an ad between tv shows?  Well they guy sued them and won in court.  They could report his crash but they could not use the thing over and over without his permisssion and pay!  This, to me, is no different what ever.  I don't care what their hidden words in their agreement is, it is a totally one sided agreement which I DO NOT agree to.  SO, gog and magog, PAY UP!


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## Steamchick

Not sure if I understand some of the logic and numbers above... 
In my experience, a CD is only 700mB I.E. = 0.7Gb = 0.0007Tb. I.E. 0.028% of the 1/4 Tb drive? - surely this is "Tiny" in the world of data storage? - and as the Q40S is just over 700Mb at 719 Mb 0- surely it won't fit on a CD that actually only takes about 650Mb for all its stated capacity of 700Mb?
Sorry to sound crazy - but I am (an Engineer that is). I just don't know about data storage stuff.
But I think I understand the logic about using a CD to block any virus... Or maybe I don't?
If the virus is written into the data pack sent and written to the CD, surely when the computer reads that to use it the virus will be enacted on the chip in the computer - which is talking to the internet? And if the CD can't accept anything being re-written onto it, how and where is the data stored, if not on the CD? - As you explain that if you use a USB drive, it will write all the data to that. Surely any "simple" virus will write data to the "C:" drive anyway? - because that's what virus writers seem to do?
But this is all a black art to me anyway... 
If I write the Q40S to my main C-drive, will the McAfee and current firewalls work? - I guess they will - but really have no idea!
K2


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## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Not sure if I understand some of the logic and numbers above...
> In my experience, a CD is only 700mB I.E. = 0.7Gb = 0.0007Tb. I.E. 0.028% of the 1/4 Tb drive? - surely this is "Tiny" in the world of data storage? - and as the Q40S is just over 700Mb at 719 Mb 0- surely it won't fit on a CD that actually only takes about 650Mb for all its stated capacity of 700Mb?
> Sorry to sound crazy - but I am (an Engineer that is). I just don't know about data storage stuff.
> But I think I understand the logic about using a CD to block any virus... Or maybe I don't?
> If the virus is written into the data pack sent and written to the CD, surely when the computer reads that to use it the virus will be enacted on the chip in the computer - which is talking to the internet? And if the CD can't accept anything being re-written onto it, how and where is the data stored, if not on the CD? - As you explain that if you use a USB drive, it will write all the data to that. Surely any "simple" virus will write data to the "C:" drive anyway? - because that's what virus writers seem to do?
> But this is all a black art to me anyway...
> If I write the Q40S to my main C-drive, will the McAfee and current firewalls work? - I guess they will - but really have no idea!
> K2



Not sure about the firewalls but I am positive that McAfee won't work.
As I think about your question I don't think the firewalls will work either but one way to find out would be to kick up your memory stick and then  when you're in Q40S take a look at your then firewall settings - - - - then you will know if the firewall settings transfer (I don't think they will). You could let us know after your attempt to remove all doubt for anyone else.


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Not sure if I understand some of the logic and numbers above...
> In my experience, a CD is only 700mB I.E. = 0.7Gb = 0.0007Tb. I.E. 0.028% of the 1/4 Tb drive? - surely this is "Tiny" in the world of data storage? - and as the Q40S is just over 700Mb at 719 Mb 0- surely it won't fit on a CD that actually only takes about 650Mb for all its stated capacity of 700Mb?
> Sorry to sound crazy - but I am (an Engineer that is). I just don't know about data storage stuff.
> But I think I understand the logic about using a CD to block any virus... Or maybe I don't?
> If the virus is written into the data pack sent and written to the CD, surely when the computer reads that to use it the virus will be enacted on the chip in the computer - which is talking to the internet? And if the CD can't accept anything being re-written onto it, how and where is the data stored, if not on the CD? - As you explain that if you use a USB drive, it will write all the data to that. Surely any "simple" virus will write data to the "C:" drive anyway? - because that's what virus writers seem to do?
> But this is all a black art to me anyway...
> If I write the Q40S to my main C-drive, will the McAfee and current firewalls work? - I guess they will - but really have no idea!
> K2


Because the way Linux uses the instruction set is completely different from msux, that means that all the programs on msux will not understand how they are supposed to operate.  It's like you know how to drive a car, but you take that car driving ability and try to "drive" an ocean going ship using the exact same "instruction" set as for th ecar.  It doesn't work.  So altho' McCaffee doesn't work, there are other systems that you don't necessarily buy but are already operating like Mccaffee. either built in firewalls or firewalls that are added in at boot up time.  CDs geneerally hold more than that nowadaze.  Where have you been?

That's why your programs do not run with Linux.  Linux is, howevr, an operating system (OS) and it knows about your other drives, in fact it understands them better than msux and makes better use of them too.


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## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> Not sure if I understand some of the logic and numbers above...
> In my experience, a CD is only 700mB I.E. = 0.7Gb = 0.0007Tb. I.E. 0.028% of the 1/4 Tb drive? - surely this is "Tiny" in the world of data storage? - and as the Q40S is just over 700Mb at 719 Mb 0- surely it won't fit on a CD that actually only takes about 650Mb for all its stated capacity of 700Mb?
> Sorry to sound crazy - but I am (an Engineer that is). I just don't know about data storage stuff.
> But I think I understand the logic about using a CD to block any virus... Or maybe I don't?
> If the virus is written into the data pack sent and written to the CD, surely when the computer reads that to use it the virus will be enacted on the chip in the computer - which is talking to the internet? And if the CD can't accept anything being re-written onto it, how and where is the data stored, if not on the CD? - As you explain that if you use a USB drive, it will write all the data to that. Surely any "simple" virus will write data to the "C:" drive anyway? - because that's what virus writers seem to do?
> But this is all a black art to me anyway...
> If I write the Q40S to my main C-drive, will the McAfee and current firewalls work? - I guess they will - but really have no idea!
> K2



Hi Ken Guys,

CD discs always have some spare capacity, and the writer software can use that to fit more on a CD than normal.  The ISO image is written to a HDD first as a single file, and the software that transfers that image will not break it up, however if you try to write more than the discs capacity in several smaller files you will run out of CD disc space.  The reason is that there is some additional information written to the CD in order to allow the reader software to find the files which may be written in multiple chunks.  On a HDD this would be the directory structure that enables individual files to be found and accessed.

You are right of course about mallware that may have been added to an ISO image, which is one of the reasons that a check sum is also published, allowing the downloader to confirm that the data in the ISO image is what the writer of that image intended.

If you are running the image from the bootable CD then the only data that can be temporarily stored is in memory, which will be lost when the computer is turned off.

You have to jump through a few hoops to be able to write to your HDD.  It can be done if you know how.  However the software on the bootable CD cannot write anything to your HDD even if you want it to !  You have to install the OS in order to utilise the HDD.

Since a virus cannot write anything to the already written CD and the software on the CD cannot write anything to the HDD, it is a non issue.

Last answer is any software that is already installed on your computer will not run under anything other than Msux, even Linux software !  Simply until Linux is installed it has no access to it.

Sorry for the long post !


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## Steamchick

Thanks guys, I am beginning to understand a few things..
K2


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## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Ken Guys,
> 
> CD discs always have some spare capacity, and the writer software can use that to fit more on a CD than normal.  The ISO image is written to a HDD first as a single file, and the software that transfers that image will not break it up, however if you try to write more than the discs capacity in several smaller files you will run out of CD disc space.  The reason is that there is some additional information written to the CD in order to allow the reader software to find the files which may be written in multiple chunks.  On a HDD this would be the directory structure that enables individual files to be found and accessed.
> 
> You are right of course about mallware that may have been added to an ISO image, which is one of the reasons that a check sum is also published, allowing the downloader to confirm that the data in the ISO image is what the writer of that image intended.
> 
> If you are running the image from the bootable CD then the only data that can be temporarily stored is in memory, which will be lost when the computer is turned off.
> 
> You have to jump through a few hoops to be able to write to your HDD.  It can be done if you know how.  However the software on the bootable CD cannot write anything to your HDD even if you want it to !  You have to install the OS in order to utilise the HDD.
> 
> Since a virus cannot write anything to the already written CD and the software on the CD cannot write anything to the HDD, it is a non issue.
> 
> Last answer is any software that is already installed on your computer will not run under anything other than Msux, even Linux software !  Simply until Linux is installed it has no access to it.
> 
> Sorry for the long post !



If you know how to access the HDDs, you should be able to write to them if you wish.  I mean, that's what Linux is all about:  choice.  Using Suse, I could access all my msux files, but I never used a Debian so am not sure how it works.  I'm just pretty sure it works similarly as there used to be a lot of Debian users who worshipped it and probaqbly still do.


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## Steamchick

A while back I bought an "Xtra-PC" USB stick - that was for an older Dell... but it didn't work, as the older Dell was simply 1 generation too old (1 month of manufacture too old according to all the specs I saw!). So I tried it on this computer - worked fine - except it is totally isolated from the hard drive so cannot access any of my files - that I use regularly for designing stuff, family tree stuff, mail, all my personal and bank stuff, etc..
Hence I am considering the Q40 Linux method on the hard-drive.
So glad of all your various comments. 
Thanks Boys and Girls. (The young-uns know all about this stuff I didn't do ...).
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> A while back I bought an "Xtra-PC" USB stick - that was for an older Dell... but it didn't work, as the older Dell was simply 1 generation too old (1 month of manufacture too old according to all the specs I saw!). So I tried it on this computer - worked fine - except it is totally isolated from the hard drive so cannot access any of my files - that I use regularly for designing stuff, family tree stuff, mail, all my personal and bank stuff, etc..
> Hence I am considering the Q40 Linux method on the hard-drive.
> So glad of all your various comments.
> Thanks Boys and Girls. (The young-uns know all about this stuff I didn't do ...).
> K2


Don't forget, in this case, you can have your pie and eat it too.  Linux will allow you to boot in either Linux or msux.  Yo can also get a "wine", that is, a winsux emulator, or what this means is that msux will run in Linux as an actual program.  I've heard that it makes some mistakes especially when running games.  I thimpfk it really is just a language translator that translates from msux OS into Linux OS.  Don't know the details, however.  Naturally, this would make the computer run slower.


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## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> If you know how to access the HDDs, you should be able to write to them if you wish.  I mean, that's what Linux is all about:  choice.  Using Suse, I could access all my msux files, but I never used a Debian so am not sure how it works.  I'm just pretty sure it works similarly as there used to be a lot of Debian users who worshipped it and probaqbly still do.



Hi Richard, Guys,

The point that I was trying to get across is that by default the Linux software on the bootable CD does not allow access to your HDD.

Yes Linux will and can access almost any file that you have, but you have to be able to tell Linux how to access the HDD.

Now when you click on the "Install" icon, Linux goes and reads the HDD partition table, from there it looks for space to install into.  If it cannot find any you have to start and tell Linux what you want it to do.  At this point in time installing is a another story.

Get to use and play with the bootable system running on the CD first !  Linux is easy to use but not everyone can cope with it.  For instance, I have single mouse click set, Msux is a double mouse click.  Some people can't get used to that, so its double click by default, so as not to put Msux users off !

Debian Linux is just one of many flavors !  Its like icecream, Linux has many flavors.

Another point, "Trinity" is a graphical desktop as is Plasma.


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## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> A while back I bought an "Xtra-PC" USB stick - that was for an older Dell... but it didn't work, as the older Dell was simply 1 generation too old (1 month of manufacture too old according to all the specs I saw!). So I tried it on this computer - worked fine - except it is totally isolated from the hard drive so cannot access any of my files - that I use regularly for designing stuff, family tree stuff, mail, all my personal and bank stuff, etc..
> Hence I am considering the Q4OS Linux method on the hard-drive.
> So glad of all your various comments.
> Thanks Boys and Girls. (The young-uns know all about this stuff I didn't do ...).
> K2



Hi Ken, Guys,

I'm a little surprised that your old Dell doesn't recognise the Xtra-PC USB stick.  I have a Win XP machine and it doesn't have any problems with USB other than it doesn't always recognise USB2 or 3 devices.

I think that you will find that by default the USB copy of the Linux ISO will not see or touch your HDD.  This is done delibratly in order to prevent you damaging the software on it.  You would be most upset if you found that your Msux was corrupted.

Thanks for the "Young uns" comment !  I wish


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## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Ken, Guys,
> 
> I'm a little surprised that your old Dell doesn't recognise the Xtra-PC USB stick.  I have a Win XP machine and it doesn't have any problems with USB other than it doesn't always recognise USB2 or 3 devices.
> 
> I think that you will find that by default the USB copy of the Linux ISO will not see or touch your HDD.  This is done delibratly in order to prevent you damaging the software on it.  You would be most upset if you found that your Msux was corrupted.
> 
> Thanks for the "Young uns" comment !  I wish


Ha haa haawww, that's a good one:  "if you found that your Msux was corrupted".   I thimk you mean if you found your msux became UNCORRUPTED!  H a haaa. OH oh, excuse me, I meant corrupted in a different meaning.  LOL

OK, I was wondering if that was what you meant:  that you had to SPECIFICALLY dig into the hard drives and that Linux specifically kept out unless you told it to do so.  THat's great.  I'd expect it to be that way but at the same time it should not be too difficult to get into the other hard drives.  I always laft, (or cried in anger) about msux's misuse of hard drive space.  The operating system of Linux is tiny compared to the bloated msux and it's use of space is also tiny compared to msux.  When I was using Suse, I had a space for Linux about 1/10th the size of msux--it wasn't necessary to have all that bloat.  and if I needed extra space, I just used some msux hard drive space.  Easy.  However that was quite a while ago now.  I wonder if there are more programs available in Linux that I might like to use.  I used to like playing the card games on Linux just as a diversion.  I played chess too and NEVER won a game--not once!  Damn!


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## Steamchick

Thanks guys. Always good to hear your banter (is that another odd-named Linux programme?).
Xtra-PC stick needs 64-bit PCs made 2007 or later... but I think it was "July 2007" when I checked and mine was a month to old - whatever. Anyway it would not work at all.
K2


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## aarggh

Steamchick said:


> If I write the Q40S to my main C-drive, will the McAfee and current firewalls work? - I guess they will - but really have no idea!
> K2



All Linux distros come with pretty much everything you need from a security point of view, IPTABLES is usually the default, and can be auto configured by most distros during the install, or afterwards via editing config files, command line, or GUI tools, in linux there's always a lot of choice to do things. It's not as hard as it may seem to configure a firewall on Linux, it's only when you're configuring more advanced masquerading or stuff like that it gets a bit more complicated, but there's numerous sites with info to help, because all consumer grade OS's are generally open source, so LOT's of support, and good updating, except maybe Centos now unfortunately! ;-(

A lot of the hardware firewall appliances on the market are simply running an embedded or FLASH version of some Linux distro, cut down to just what's needed for the device.

Linux never really took over the desktop like it was anticipated, but it silently took over the enterprise and server arena!


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## ajoeiam

aarggh said:


> All Linux distros come with pretty much everything you need from a security point of view, IPTABLES is usually the default, and can be auto configured by most distros during the install, or afterwards via editing config files, command line, or GUI tools, in linux there's always a lot of choice to do things. It's not as hard as it may seem to configure a firewall on Linux, it's only when you're configuring more advanced masquerading or stuff like that it gets a bit more complicated, but there's numerous sites with info to help, because all consumer grade OS's are generally open source, so LOT's of support, and good updating, except maybe Centos now unfortunately! ;-(
> 
> A lot of the hardware firewall appliances on the market are simply running an embedded or FLASH version of some Linux distro, cut down to just what's needed for the device.
> 
> Linux never really took over the desktop like it was anticipated, but it silently took over the enterprise and server arena!




Debian has been using nftables as its default firewall since the release of Debian 10 (IIRC). 
(Not that I really know what I'm doing with that - - - grin!)


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## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> Thanks guys. Always good to hear your banter (is that another odd-named Linux programme?).
> Xtra-PC stick needs 64-bit PCs made 2007 or later... but I think it was "July 2007" when I checked and mine was a month to old - whatever. Anyway it would not work at all.
> K2



Ken, was it one of those that needed some software/driver to get at a feature for it !  Like encryption software.


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## Chriske

I'm using Linux Mint. Never had any problems with it. Very easy to install, and most of all all is 'on board'. All software you ever need is accessible at a glance.
Maybe it has been mentioned in this thread already, did not read it all. So sorry if it has.


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## Richard Hed

Chriske said:


> I'm using Linux Mint. Never had any problems with it. Very easy to install, and most of all all is 'on board'. All software you ever need is accessible at a glance.
> Maybe it has been mentioned in this thread already, did not read it all. So sorry if it has.


Mint?  is that a 'debian'?


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## Chriske

yep..!


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

It is important to note that Q4OS is only one of very many variants of Linux.  There are many based on Debian among others.

Have a look at 




__





						DistroWatch.com: Q4OS
					

News and feature lists of Linux and BSD distributions.




					distrowatch.com


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## Chriske

Indeed, there are lots of distro's to choose from.
Years ago I started using Linux Mint. There are 4 different to choose from, I picked Mint Xfce. It is the lightest version of the Mint family. It has the look and the 'feel' of WinXP. Love it..!
And as I said before it has all 'on board'. Opening 'Software manager' you got literal thousands of programs to chose from, easy install.
But the most important issue about Linux, is the forums. If you have a question about something, or you do have a problem, just ask the guys at the forum. You really don't now what's happening...! Ask that question and minutes later there's someone  answering you, helping you. There's always someone there around the globe to assist you in case of problems. Even the most basic question will be answered. *That *is something Microsoft can only dream of..!!!
And one more thing : all these Linux OS'ses and all that software is for free.


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## Apprentice707

I used Ubuntu (or tried to) for a while but in the end, went back to Windows. My short-term memory could be better so I struggled with the new terminology in Ubuntu always trying to find windows expressions. Perhaps my brain needed rebooting.

I have a refurbished Dell desktop in my workshop using Windows 10. It played up a bit so I decided to reinstall the Windows 10 system, it took forever (overnight) and when I went to it in the morning I found Windows 7 installed. At first, I was crestfallen but decided to flog on and use windows 7. What a joy it boots well and is quick to load and shut down I can use my old bought programmes and can still use Google Chrome with no problems. What I don't understand is where did Windows 10 go?
In future, I will stick to cutting metal and not interfere with electronics, although I am struggling my way through an Arduino project, with more new names to remember.


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## BaronJ

Apprentice707 said:


> I used Ubuntu (or tried to) for a while but in the end, went back to Windows. My short-term memory could be better so I struggled with the new terminology in Ubuntu always trying to find windows expressions. Perhaps my brain needed rebooting.
> 
> I have a refurbished Dell desktop in my workshop using Windows 10. It played up a bit so I decided to reinstall the Windows 10 system, it took forever (overnight) and when I went to it in the morning I found Windows 7 installed. At first, I was crestfallen but decided to flog on and use windows 7. What a joy it boots well and is quick to load and shut down I can use my old bought programmes and can still use Google Chrome with no problems. What I don't understand is where did Windows 10 go?
> In future, I will stick to cutting metal and not interfere with electronics, although I am struggling my way through an Arduino project, with more new names to remember.



Hello Apprentice,

The most likely reason is that W7 is the OS in the restore partition on your Dell, and that overwrote the W10 installation. 

I very common issue, I know of dozens that have done exactly the same thing without realising why !


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## skyline1

aarggh said:


> Linux never really took over the desktop like it was anticipated, but it silently took over the enterprise and server arena!



I agree Yes it has !

Much of "the internet" runs on Linux (including this forum probably) and there are embedded mini Linux instances simply everywhere. Routers, Smart TVs, domestic appliances even, (and many more I haven't even thought of)

Heck even my Digital  Audio Mixing Desk runs on a highly modified Linux

Manufacturers don't want MS effectively owning half of their product and having to pay for the privilege.

And then there are the infamous Windows updates which almost everyone has fallen foul of at one time or another. A lengthy and secretive process involving one or more complete reboots. and it is not until the end of it that you know whether it's been successful or not. Why an update takes many times longer than installing the O.S. in the first place baffles me.

I have a home built NAS/server which uses OMV (Based on Debian) It runs 24/7 and has been doing so for at least 5 years without a fault. It just gets on with it without complaining and throwing problems at you, and best of all it was FREE !

It's resources are very modest by MS standards. The processor is an old AMD Phenom II quad core and it has only 8 GB of RAM (might even be 4 GB)
It has 8 Big (3 TB ) drives hanging on it and is running any number of applications besides simply storage.

Whilst most of my machines do use Windows (some are specialized for certain jobs and software is only available for Windows) For this job Linux eats any MS offering for breakfast. 

At one time Linux was considered a "Computer enthusiast's" Operating System, Very powerful, but you needed a lot of technical knowhow to get the best out of it (A degree in computer science was handy)

But not nowadays, Linux is fast becoming as easy to use as commercial O.S's and software support is growing too, an increasing number of packages for Windows (and MACs) are being ported to Linux 

Whilst I may sound like a complete Linux "Geek",  I'm not.  I have a foot in both camps, It's really "horses for courses" but there may well be a Linux solution to your particular problem worth considering.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## aarggh

BaronJ said:


> Hello Apprentice,
> 
> The most likely reason is that W7 is the OS in the restore partition on your Dell, and that overwrote the W10 installation.
> 
> I very common issue, I know of dozens that have done exactly the same thing without realising why !



Win 7 is far superior to Win 10 anyway, in Win 10 they tried to make it everything, for every use, for everyone, and in turn made it so dumbed down and bloated it runs like rubbish, and you have to run 3rd party scripts to turn off all the disgusting telemetry and crap they put in just to make it reasonably useful.


----------



## Chriske

The biggest mistake new Linux users do : choosing a distro *way* to large and complex for their needs.
Ubuntu sound very 'sexy' or whatever you want to call it.. But it absolutely is the wrong distro for beginners. Not all is installed like in Linux Mint. Not only Ubuntu, there are some more distro's intended for advanced users.
I don't like to work on the command line(terminal) so that is the reason why I chose Linux Mint. There's (almost) no need to open a terminal. All a regular Wintendo-user need is pre-installed in Mint. That is absolutely NOT the case with Ubuntu and a few others. Installing extra software on Ubuntu is not easy at all.
Nowadays many developers of Linux software export their product as a 'appimage' file. Download the software double click and you immediately can start working. No installation needed for these programs.

Whats more, all documents ever made in Win, Linux does open it without any problems. Doc, doxc, excell, powerpoint, you name it...

As Marc wrote : _Linux is fast becoming as easy to use as commercial O.S's and software support is growing too, an increasing number of packages for Windows (and MACs) are being ported to Linux_
*Very true..!*

The only problem for Linux starters, the big change, the big unknown...
What if I run into a problem, well... I quote myself here :
_But the most important issue about Linux, is the forums. If you have a question about something, or you do have a problem, just ask the guys at the forum. You really don't now what's happening...! Ask that question and minutes later there's someone  answering you, helping you. There's always someone there around the globe to assist you in case of problems. Even the most basic question will be answered. *That *is something Microsoft can only dream of..!!!_


----------



## Chriske

Win 7 is far superior to Win 10 anyway, you say..?
very true, and do not forget XP, that was a very good and most of all easy to tune OS..!
In those days I managed to tune XP, I had only 86Mb in RAM...! And everything kept working. Those were the days. Starting up took me 14 sec flat, and no, in those days there was no SSD available.


----------



## skyline1

Chriske said:


> Whats more, all documents ever made in Win, Linux does open it without any problems. Doc, doxc, excell, powerpoint, you name it...



Not just documents, modern distros can mount and read non native file systems including NTFS (Windows) ones, very handy if you have loads of data on a Windows formatted drive.  Linux will treat it just like a native Linux drive.



Chriske said:


> do not forget XP, that was a very good and most of all easy to tune OS..!
> In those days I managed to tune XP, I had only 86Mb in RAM...! And everything kept working. Those were the days. Starting up took me 14 sec flat, and no, in those days there was no SSD available.



I agree Probably the best OS that They ever came up with, which is probably why they had such a job trying to kill it. They never did completely and many people are still using it for certain things including me.

My little Chinese gantry router runs Mach 3 on XP and works just fine. Using it to access the Net would be very risky (and probably difficult) but for standalone things like this it's ideal. Little bloat so it's pretty fast, and very stable (It had 10 years or so to get most of the bugs knocked out).

As an experiment I once installed XP on a fairly modern machine (i5 Quad IIRC) only 32 bit so it couldn't use the full capability of the processor and memory capacity was limited. (By modern standards). I had to do a fair bit of searching for drivers, as is usually the case with XP but once finished, it absolutely went like the clappers.

It could even heavy jobs like video rendering much, much faster than any of it's successors, (2 to 3 times faster). so sometimes there is room for the old adage "If it ain't busted don't fix it"

Squeezing even XP into 86 MB is very impressive, that must have been a quite a prune and tune job ! As is a 14 Second boot up especially on an old (and probably 5400 PATA) flying rust drive.

All of this has got me thinking about trying Linux CNC on my router. 

The idea of having the CNC control program integrated into an OS actually preconfigured and designed for the job against having having it installed onto a general purpose non realtime one (Mach3/XP) seems like a good idea. And if it doesn't work it hasn't cost me anything.

I will make a backup of the XP install so if things really screw up I can just revert back

Anyone with experience of Linux CNC who knows of any gotchas, advice would be appreciated.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Chriske

To do this, booting with just 86Mb in RAM, I completely stripped the 'Services' list, killed all 'Startup' files, never *ever* installed a firewall or virusscanners. and last but not least edited many many registry settings. All my friends were eager to bring their pc to me to have it tuned 'my way'..In those days I had lots of fun doing that...☺
I made a list 'what to do'.  After a while it was mere routine..


----------



## Chriske

I do run Linux Mint on all our machines at home btw. I had to convince my wife - very difficult task - but now she's even happy to have Linux running. She was fed-up with the constant FORCED win10 updates.
On my Mint 'laptop workhorse' runs a Virtual Machine to run W7. I need to run W7 because my CAD software is written 'Wintendo only'. Problem is, I can't go back, using another CAD program, because of the many projects I drew over the years in Inventor. Way to many files to simply abandon. I could convert to STEP(or other), but that would take me months, if not years to do...
So I'm stuck with W7 forever...


----------



## salzburg

Is there a CNC  OP system for mint?


----------



## awake

Chriske said:


> The biggest mistake new Linux users do : choosing a distro *way* to large and complex for their needs.
> Ubuntu sound very 'sexy' or whatever you want to call it.. But it absolutely is the wrong distro for beginners. Not all is installed like in Linux Mint. Not only Ubuntu, there are some more distro's intended for advanced users.
> I don't like to work on the command line(terminal) so that is the reason why I chose Linux Mint. There's (almost) no need to open a terminal. All a regular Wintendo-user need is pre-installed in Mint. That is absolutely NOT the case with Ubuntu and a few others. Installing extra software on Ubuntu is not easy at all.
> Nowadays many developers of Linux software export their product as a 'appimage' file. Download the software double click and you immediately can start working. No installation needed for these programs.
> 
> Whats more, all documents ever made in Win, Linux does open it without any problems. Doc, doxc, excell, powerpoint, you name it...
> 
> As Marc wrote : _Linux is fast becoming as easy to use as commercial O.S's and software support is growing too, an increasing number of packages for Windows (and MACs) are being ported to Linux_
> *Very true..!*
> 
> The only problem for Linux starters, the big change, the big unknown...
> What if I run into a problem, well... I quote myself here :
> _But the most important issue about Linux, is the forums. If you have a question about something, or you do have a problem, just ask the guys at the forum. You really don't now what's happening...! Ask that question and minutes later there's someone  answering you, helping you. There's always someone there around the globe to assist you in case of problems. Even the most basic question will be answered. *That *is something Microsoft can only dream of..!!!_



Hmmm ... your experience with Ubuntu is vastly different from mine. I have found it to be a very easy-to-use install for beginners, having set up machines for folks to use with it installed, and they never had a problem doing all the things they wanted to do. My parents ran on Ubuntu for many years until their laptop died (physically, not software).

Likewise, installing additional software on Ubuntu seems very easy and straightforward. I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where a program offers a Linux variant, and the choices don't include Ubuntu (most often specifically, but sometimes "generically" as the choice between .deb and .rpm).

Of course, different use cases can lead to different experiences - this is just my own experience on my own machines and those I've set up for others.

One other place where my experience differs - yes, LibreOffice can open any MS-Office file, and can save in Office file formats. However, there are subtle issues that can lead to rather significant problems with formatting. In general, simple formats are no problem, but when you start using outlines and bullet points and table of contents fields and so on, it is not unusual for it to come across looking quite different than intended.

I say this as someone who by preference uses LibreOffice 95% of the time, including editing MS-Office files. But there are times when I have to fire up my VirtualBox installation of Windows and use MS-Office to keep from messing up the format on a document that will be shared with others who are MS only.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

I think Linux CNC is based on Debian with a real time kernel.


----------



## Richard Hed

Chriske said:


> I do run Linux Mint on all our machines at home btw. I had to convince my wife - very difficult task - but now she's even happy to have Linux running. She was fed-up with the constant FORCED win10 updates.
> On my Mint 'laptop workhorse' runs a Virtual Machine to run W7. I need to run W7 because my CAD software is written 'Wintendo only'. Problem is, I can't go back, using another CAD program, because of the many projects I drew over the years in Inventor. Way to many files to simply abandon. I could convert to STEP(or other), but that would take me months, if not years to do...
> So I'm stuck with W7 forever...


I thot I was the only one with that disgust of msux forcing the unwanted updates and trouble it causes.


----------



## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> I thot I was the only one with that disgust of msux forcing the unwanted updates and trouble it causes.



Believe me, you are not the only one !  Both my children have to use W10 because their employer says so.  The NHS employs it for their systems, I hear them complaining about it being slow or computer locked up whenever I go to the hospital.  The doctors system won't let me use parts of the system because I have JavaScript disabled.  And google analytics can't get my details, etc etc.


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Believe me, you are not the only one !  Both my children have to use W10 because their employer says so.  The NHS employs it for their systems, I hear them complaining about it being slow or computer locked up whenever I go to the hospital.  The doctors system won't let me use parts of the system because I have JavaScript disabled.  And google analytics can't get my details, etc etc.


OMG, I thot for sure th e NHS would be using Linux based computers.  Does you remember a few years back when German cities were going to Linux when msux panikt , sent an army of lobbyiest to Germany to get the cities to keep msux OS?  msux must have given them a HUGE deal to keep them from going over.  I heard they had a hard time keeping the cities in the fold.  Where I live, at least the library uses Linux, I bet the city does too.  I really question, why, why would anyone use msux?  there is only ONE reason:  that is all the programs that have been running on msux OSs since the 80s.  Linux, however, is catching up in that regard.  

I bought my second computer in 1988, it was an Amiga.  I don't know what the operating system was, or who wrote it, but I DO know one thing:  the Amiga was the best computer I ever owned.  Problem is, it never kept up with the times and went out of business.


----------



## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> OMG, I thot for sure th e NHS would be using Linux based computers.  Does you remember a few years back when German cities were going to Linux when msux panikt , sent an army of lobbyiest to Germany to get the cities to keep msux OS?  msux must have given them a HUGE deal to keep them from going over.  I heard they had a hard time keeping the cities in the fold.  Where I live, at least the library uses Linux, I bet the city does too.  I really question, why, why would anyone use msux?  there is only ONE reason:  that is all the programs that have been running on msux OSs since the 80s.  Linux, however, is catching up in that regard.
> 
> I bought my second computer in 1988, it was an Amiga.  I don't know what the operating system was, or who wrote it, but I DO know one thing:  the Amiga was the best computer I ever owned.  Problem is, it never kept up with the times and went out of business.



Hi Richard, Guys,

Yes I do remember it well !  Basically they went around bribing all and sundry to use Wins.  I even got a free of charge/not for sale copy of "SNA Server"  god forbid I still have it !  Its sat on the bookshelf, unopened, definitely unloved.

They gave huge discounts to the Government and various other organizations to keep them on side.  To a great extent its worked.

I did hear a rumor that MS use Linux internally !   I do know that they used and wrote Unix applications in the very early days.  In fact I'm sure that I still have the only Unix license that I bought, which even by todays prices was very expensive.  I've probably still got that software kicking around somewhere.


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Richard, Guys,
> 
> Yes I do remember it well !  Basically they went around bribing all and sundry to use Wins.  I even got a free of charge/not for sale copy of "SNA Server"  god forbid I still have it !  Its sat on the bookshelf, unopened, definitely unloved.
> 
> They gave huge discounts to the Government and various other organizations to keep them on side.  To a great extent its worked.
> 
> I did hear a rumor that MS use Linux internally !   I do know that they used and wrote Unix applications in the very early days.  In fact I'm sure that I still have the only Unix license that I bought, which even by todays prices was very expensive.  I've probably still got that software kicking around somewhere.


Yes, and IBM charged, in those days, 1000$ for an operating system.  No wonder msux cut them out so easily.  Once the OS is developed it only cost 25c plust postage and packaging to send out a CD to a customer.  Gates' genius lies in his business sense to give steep discounts to companies willing to install his OS on ALL their computers!  It's not exactly piracy, but not really very far from it.  IBM simply was too greedy but Bill cut their sac.


----------



## skyline1

BaronJ said:


> I did hear a rumor that MS use Linux internally ! I do know that they used and wrote Unix applications in the very early days.



It wouldn't surprise me at all. This may explain why The MSux "update" procedure is so secretive, behind that blue splash screen giving cryptic messages about what is going on (or not) may be parts of the Linux code doing it's stuff with no attribution at all.

Whilst you can't exactly pirate FOSS software. Claiming it (or bits of it) as your own without any acknowledgement of the many hours of work put into it, simply for the good of others, not for profit, is at the very least rather immoral. But when did that ever bother a money gobbling monster like Microsoft

Conspiracy theories aside I have been hearing of late about the "Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)" which I believe allows the use of Linux applications from within Windows.

I doubt I would want to do this, more likely the other way round as I am a little suspicious of anything MS does, But does anyone know what this is all about.

Is it simply a disguised virtual machine that could be easily implemented in other ways without having to comply with MS rules and limitations. or is it something different.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Richard Hed

skyline1 said:


> It wouldn't surprise me at all. This may explain why The MSux "update" procedure is so secretive, behind that blue splash screen giving cryptic messages about what is going on (or not) may be parts of the Linux code doing it's stuff with no attribution at all.
> 
> Whilst you can't exactly pirate FOSS software. Claiming it (or bits of it) as your own without any acknowledgement of the many hours of work put into it, simply for the good of others, not for profit, is at the very least rather immoral. But when did that ever bother a money gobbling monster like Microsoft
> 
> Conspiracy theories aside I have been hearing of late about the "Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL)" which I believe allows the use of Linux applications from within Windows.
> 
> I doubt I would want to do this, more likely the other way round as I am a little suspicious of anything MS does, But does anyone know what this is all about.
> 
> Is it simply a disguised virtual machine that could be easily implemented in other ways without having to comply with MS rules and limitations. or is it something different.
> 
> Best Regards Mark


That is HILARIOUS!  msux must have been trying to emulate Linux for years.  Shows  their utter lack of talent.  Linux did this years ago.


----------



## Steamchick

Hmmmm. some interesting stuff here.
I have an oldish Dell that used to be W7 but is now W10 due to the unimaginable trickery of the internet and MS. Seems to work fine - as far as I can tell. Except the older printer no longer works with W10 - "no drivers" issue. So I tried an "xtra-PC"USB. Which runs things I don't understand, can't access by C-drive files, but can access everything on the web - which is not everything I do.
So I have now added Q40S Linux to my hard drive....
But the earlier thread makes me wonder if I will be better-off just re-starting the factory setting of W7? - when everything seemed to function correctly?
Without predjudice for or against Linux and MS... I know my printer will work on W7 - so is that the sensible way to go? What will I lose if I hit "factory reset"? Are all my files of "stuff" safe, and will they all work in W7? (Like 20 years of photos, family tree and engineering files, etc.).
Frankly I am more worried about the systems crashing the whole lot than missing my printer. And somehow, all the debate makes me wonder if I am just too simple to appreciate all the problems you have with MS? - or advantages of Linux? - It is like never having had a car, you think walking and buses are great! And wonder why everyone needs their car? So how will Linux improve my life (or not?), or will "Factory reset" to W7 still use all my files safely?
I still use a pencil and paper for drawing - it suits me. And a calculator (from the 1970s) as it is quicker for the calculations I do than I can programme an Excel spreadsheet.... (and I like to see the numbers changing so I understand what the answer really means and how I got there! I understand teacher wanting to see my workings - even when I did it "by slide-rule" - oh, I still use mine occasionally).
So the choice is Linux? W7? W10?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hmmmm. some interesting stuff here.
> I have an oldish Dell that used to be W7 but is now W10 due to the unimaginable trickery of the internet and MS. Seems to work fine - as far as I can tell. Except the older printer no longer works with W10 - "no drivers" issue. So I tried an "xtra-PC"USB. Which runs things I don't understand, can't access by C-drive files, but can access everything on the web - which is not everything I do.
> So I have now added Q40S Linux to my hard drive....
> But the earlier thread makes me wonder if I will be better-off just re-starting the factory setting of W7? - when everything seemed to function correctly?
> Without predjudice for or against Linux and MS... I know my printer will work on W7 - so is that the sensible way to go? What will I lose if I hit "factory reset"? Are all my files of "stuff" safe, and will they all work in W7? (Like 20 years of photos, family tree and engineering files, etc.).
> Frankly I am more worried about the systems crashing the whole lot than missing my printer. And somehow, all the debate makes me wonder if I am just too simple to appreciate all the problems you have with MS? - or advantages of Linux? - It is like never having had a car, you think walking and buses are great! And wonder why everyone needs their car? So how will Linux improve my life (or not?), or will "Factory reset" to W7 still use all my files safely?
> I still use a pencil and paper for drawing - it suits me. And a calculator (from the 1970s) as it is quicker for the calculations I do than I can programme an Excel spreadsheet.... (and I like to see the numbers changing so I understand what the answer really means and how I got there! I understand teacher wanting to see my workings - even when I did it "by slide-rule" - oh, I still use mine occasionally).
> So the choice is Linux? W7? W10?
> K2


The first thing to do is get ALL your files copied to an exterior drive of some kind--CDs, Hard drives, thumb drives, whatever.  Your files are too important.  My files, I have copies on like 4-5 different drives.  I learned this because of msux 95 which crashed so much it was ridiculous.  It cost me about $20,000 worth of my stuff.  Thjat's the real reason I hate msux so much.  I learned from that to back up back up back up.  It never hurts to have extra files.  

Then, when you have safe files, you can experiment with Linux on one older machine and msux on another.  If you don't have an extra machine, go to Salvation Army  or a local junk store and get anoter for a few pounds.  My local junk store sells reasonably good used computers for about 10-20$.


----------



## trlvn

Richard Hed said:


> I bought my second computer in 1988, it was an Amiga. I don't know what the operating system was, or who wrote it, but I DO know one thing: the Amiga was the best computer I ever owned. Problem is, it never kept up with the times and went out of business.







__





						Welcome to AmigaOS | AmigaOS
					






					amigaos.net
				




Did you give up too soon? 

Craig


----------



## willray

Richard Hed said:


> That is HILARIOUS!  msux must have been trying to emulate Linux for years.  Shows  their utter lack of talent.  Linux did this years ago.



In reality, there is very little different in the Linuxes of today, from the Unixes of the early 1980s.  There are some underlying re-workings of how certain processes work, but these are essentially invisible to the user.  The "getting easier to use" has little, if anything to do with the operating system itself, and everything to do with the interface software that runs on top of the operating system.  That interface software however is not the OS, and the OS isn't the interface:  If I sat you down in front of a pair of computers - one a modern Linux box with the most recent Debian, running only the command-line, and the other one of my Sun workstations running SunOS (a Berkeley flavor of Unix) from the 1980s, you'd be hard-pressed to tell which was which.  Likewise, if I installed your favorite Linux desktop interface on the Sun, you'd have a difficult time telling that it wasn't running modern Linux under the hood.

MS - even MS - could have implemented Linux-like features and controllability in Windows years ago, if they had had any interest in doing so.  The limitation isn't "for lack of trying or ability", it's for lack of wanting to provide those capabilities to their users.

To understand the MS mindset and the "difficulty" they have in implementing different features, you have to understand that MS hates their users.  MS's core premise is that their users are stupid, and bad, and that they need to be led along by their baser instincts with trinkets and candy, and carefully controlled to make sure that they don't do something bad (to MS - who gives a flip if they hurt themselves or other users?).

You may think this is hyperbole, but if you look at MS decisions through this lens, _all_ of their decisions make perfect sense.

For example:  One of the side-projects in my lab is development of a hardware device that looks like a toy to children, but that provides diagnostic information to a clinician so that they can monitor treatment progress.  It's for kids, say 2 to 7 years old.

It turns out that Microsoft has developed a similar product.  We're working on a publication on our device, so we're studying their product and reading quite a lot of their literature on it.  _ALL_ of their literature and promotional material on their product, is about all of the special features they've implemented in their device, to keep the kids from cheating.  2 to 7 year old kids.  With neuromuscular disorders that keep them in wheel-chairs.   And MS's primary concern is whether they cheat while playing a game on a toy.

Microsoft hates their users.


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> So I have now added Q40S Linux to my hard drive....



Fine, now I assume that you are using the "Trinity Desktop".
Which is the graphical interface that runs on top of Linux and allows you to simply click on the applications that you have installed and want to run.



> But the earlier thread makes me wonder if I will be better-off just re-starting the factory setting of W7? - when everything seemed to function correctly?
> Without predjudice for or against Linux and MS... I know my printer will work on W7 - so is that the sensible way to go? What will I lose if I hit "factory reset"? Are all my files of "stuff" safe, and will they all work in W7? (Like 20 years of photos, family tree and engineering files, etc.).
> 
> K2



Under no circumstances use "Return to Factory Settings" without ensuring that you have a full backup of all the things that you want to keep !

You will loose everything on the machine !


----------



## Richard Hed

willray said:


> In reality, there is very little different in the Linuxes of today, from the Unixes of the early 1980s.  There are some underlying re-workings of how certain processes work, but these are essentially invisible to the user.  The "getting easier to use" has little, if anything to do with the operating system itself, and everything to do with the interface software that runs on top of the operating system.  That interface software however is not the OS, and the OS isn't the interface:  If I sat you down in front of a pair of computers - one a modern Linux box with the most recent Debian, running only the command-line, and the other one of my Sun workstations running SunOS (a Berkeley flavor of Unix) from the 1980s, you'd be hard-pressed to tell which was which.  Likewise, if I installed your favorite Linux desktop interface on the Sun, you'd have a difficult time telling that it wasn't running modern Linux under the hood.
> 
> MS - even MS - could have implemented Linux-like features and controllability in Windows years ago, if they had had any interest in doing so.  The limitation isn't "for lack of trying or ability", it's for lack of wanting to provide those capabilities to their users.
> 
> To understand the MS mindset and the "difficulty" they have in implementing different features, you have to understand that MS hates their users.  MS's core premise is that their users are stupid, and bad, and that they need to be led along by their baser instincts with trinkets and candy, and carefully controlled to make sure that they don't do something bad (to MS - who gives a flip if they hurt themselves or other users?).
> 
> You may think this is hyperbole, but if you look at MS decisions through this lens, _all_ of their decisions make perfect sense.
> 
> For example:  One of the side-projects in my lab is development of a hardware device that looks like a toy to children, but that provides diagnostic information to a clinician so that they can monitor treatment progress.  It's for kids, say 2 to 7 years old.
> 
> It turns out that Microsoft has developed a similar product.  We're working on a publication on our device, so we're studying their product and reading quite a lot of their literature on it.  _ALL_ of their literature and promotional material on their product, is about all of the special features they've implemented in their device, to keep the kids from cheating.  2 to 7 year old kids.  With neuromuscular disorders that keep them in wheel-chairs.   And MS's primary concern is whether they cheat while playing a game on a toy.
> 
> Microsoft hates their users.


Oh, do I ever agree with you.  That's why I really hate THEM!  I am NOT a child, I don't need that candy, I refuse to be lead around with a ring in my nose, in fact the candy and ring get IN THE WAY!  That's what we are talking about here:  bloat that very few people want.  I write screenplays and msux office is so bloated and non-specific that it makes writing screenplays in correct formatting nearly impossible.  I heard they "fixt" that (really, just more bloat, if true).  msux office is, what?  100Mb?  I have a VERY good screen writing software called "Sophocles", in my opinion it is better than the "all time favorite" but the point is, it's size is only about 86Kb!  It does everything I need which mostly has to do with formatting the screenplay correctly.  It does other stuff too, related to the writing of the play.  It doesn't have to have a silly little font pile, or hundreds of things no-one ever uses--not even secretaries.

ANd, No, I DON"T thimpfk that is hyperbole.


----------



## Richard Hed

trlvn said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to AmigaOS | AmigaOS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amigaos.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you give up too soon?
> 
> Craig


No, I didn't give up too soon--the company I was working for at the time was trying to get their workers to use and understnad computers (1992) so they offered theier employees to finance a computer each--it had minimum characteristics which yuou had to buy.  So I took advantage of that offer, as did most of the employees.  The computer was a tower, with a whopping 16Mb of ram (the Amiga had .5 MB with an upgrade to 1Mb) and whatever the speed was, I don't remember but it was really buzzing along for it's time.  The thing cost 3000$--my wife was pist.  One of my friends saw it and was totally amazed, the next day he reported to the other employees: "It's HUMONGOUS".  I wondered what he was talking abouty, to me it was just ordinary, but I guess it was one of the biggest and fastest--I never thot of it in that way.  This being my third computer, I knew just what I needed to do what I wanted.  At that time my kidz were little and I found myself spending ALL my free time on the computer.  One day, I realized that I couldn't do that to my kidz or they would grow up "neglected children" so I set apart all Saturdays to do things with the kidz.  It was one of the hardest things to do, like quitting smoking, the addiction was real, it's not a joke.  I still have the Amiga.  It ran circles around all IBM clones untill about 1995 when the clones started being as good or better.  I bought the Amiga in 1988 so they were better for 6-7 years.


----------



## Mike Henry

Chriske said:


> Whats more, all documents ever made in Win, Linux does open it without any problems. Doc, doxc, excell, powerpoint, you name it...



Can it read Alibre CAD files?


----------



## BaronJ

Mike Henry said:


> Can it read Alibre CAD files?



Most Linux CAD programs can read DFX files which Alibre can output.

However there are conversion programs like "Hoops" which can also read Alibre files among others and convert them to other formats, but of course that is another expensive Wins program !


----------



## Steamchick

I'm not a child playing games when it comes to computers... I'm not that clever.
My wife's laptop has (2 days ago) changed the screen format from tabs at the top to a vertical left-hand column... I think a MS change? But only when she closes her favourite tab website. (logs -off from it - when it closes). You can see the frustration of a "normal user" because she doesn't understand what the "Clever B(*&^%$£) do at MS - except screw-up things she is happy to use as they have been like that for more than a decade...
I may have a go at Q40 - but at the moment my favourite browser is an obsolete Chrome... that accepts government, bank, etc. sites whereas the latest Google Chrome in pretty colours doesn't. Now it is "beyond updates" (no longer supported) it is very stable and does what I want... - except play the latest video formats that interesting people on these threads - and NASA - use... So I have been using 2 browsers for well over a year or 5... - I don't know what to expect from Debian... Also my head needs to be in the right place to spend a few hours getting it going. e.g. 
Yesterday, Mcaffee told me the licence would expire in 1 day.... So I tried to upload a new version from my supplier ( of "free" Mcaffee and other services). Only to be told by Mcaffee: it can't remove the "old" version because it is part way through an update - which it isn't - so until that finishes (it has - 24 hours ago) it can't progress to remove the old and install the new version. But it should have expired today according to yesterday's message... - which it hasn't. And it tells me I have the software on 2 computer devices, (this and another) but a third should have it - I.E. This one! It is talking straight nonsense!
If I can't understand MS stuff (supposed to be OK for kids?) how am I ever going to gain the confidence to "jump" to Linux? 
5 years ago, 6-months with a Raspberry pie put me off Linux - as it never worked. - And a "Doctor" qualified computer boffin at work had programmed many raspberry pies - then couldn't make mine work so I could watch my favourite subscription website, NASA, and other technical stuff. But his kid could use it to watch Peppa Pig! - 6 months work and he gave up. Yet he used to programme Trident Missiles, etc...
I find it a bit disturbing....
Maybe I'll make "the jump" next week?
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

Stop messing about and kicking yourself in the head !

Have you downloaded the Q4OS iso file ?
Can you burn it to a CD ?
Can your machine boot from the CD drive ?

If you answer "NO" to any of these questions, PM me your address and I'll send you a CD in the post !

Now the bit about tabs position, you should be able to grab the menu bar with the mouse and drag it where you want it !

HTH.


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I'm not a child playing games when it comes to computers... I'm not that clever.
> My wife's laptop has (2 days ago) changed the screen format from tabs at the top to a vertical left-hand column... I think a MS change? But only when she closes her favourite tab website. (logs -off from it - when it closes). You can see the frustration of a "normal user" because she doesn't understand what the "Clever B(*&^%$£) do at MS - except screw-up things she is happy to use as they have been like that for more than a decade...
> I may have a go at Q40 - but at the moment my favourite browser is an obsolete Chrome... that accepts government, bank, etc. sites whereas the latest Google Chrome in pretty colours doesn't. Now it is "beyond updates" (no longer supported) it is very stable and does what I want... - except play the latest video formats that interesting people on these threads - and NASA - use... So I have been using 2 browsers for well over a year or 5... - I don't know what to expect from Debian... Also my head needs to be in the right place to spend a few hours getting it going. e.g.
> Yesterday, Mcaffee told me the licence would expire in 1 day.... So I tried to upload a new version from my supplier ( of "free" Mcaffee and other services). Only to be told by Mcaffee: it can't remove the "old" version because it is part way through an update - which it isn't - so until that finishes (it has - 24 hours ago) it can't progress to remove the old and install the new version. But it should have expired today according to yesterday's message... - which it hasn't. And it tells me I have the software on 2 computer devices, (this and another) but a third should have it - I.E. This one! It is talking straight nonsense!
> If I can't understand MS stuff (supposed to be OK for kids?) how am I ever going to gain the confidence to "jump" to Linux?
> 5 years ago, 6-months with a Raspberry pie put me off Linux - as it never worked. - And a "Doctor" qualified computer boffin at work had programmed many raspberry pies - then couldn't make mine work so I could watch my favourite subscription website, NASA, and other technical stuff. But his kid could use it to watch Peppa Pig! - 6 months work and he gave up. Yet he used to programme Trident Missiles, etc...
> I find it a bit disturbing....
> Maybe I'll make "the jump" next week?
> K2


Steam
Don't get too steamed up now, watch your boiler pressure, you might have a blowout.  My msux computers do the same thing, randomly move the bottom ribbon where I put my most used programs to the top or sides.  The only problem with this is I thimpfk that it's another one of msux's bugs (which it is, and occassionally I might press a mouse button and accidentally move it) and the ribbon has disappeared.  Then by accident I find it at the top or sides!  It's easy to move back, but still, it is VERY irritating.  Please remember what I said at an earlier post:  use your oldest beater computer or go buy one at a junk shop.  Back up all necessary files, (Handel's Halleluyah Chorus inserted here) install a Linux OS of your choice or use a CD or USB.  There is one thing I have not seen recommended here yet, it is the Boot up preferences in which you have to press a certain button at boot up time.  Each computer system has a different one so I cannot recommend which button.  This boot preference thingy will be in DOS before a "window" opens.  You must find  a place that give you the choice of "boot-from" first.  I thimpfk other guys can explain this better but it used to be absolutely mandatory, and I thimpfk still is.

 Anyway, This gives you the preference that while your machine is booting up, it checks FIRST to see if there is an OS where you directed it to.  OK, a bit confuzing.  In this DOS place, you tell it you want it to check the CD first--if it doesn't find an operating system in the CD, it goes to check the second place.  Let's say you chose USB.  Then the boot system looks for a USB OS.  If it doesn't find one there, it keeps looking untill it finds an OS.  So the point of this is that usually under normal working cercumstances, the hard drive is chekt first, so you have to reset that "boot first" check system.  (ONce you have "dual boot" this will not matter so much).  I doesn't want to skare u butt probalby Baron can explain this process better using all the correct terms.  I've forgotten the correct terms.

On another subject, I have mccoffee and some other worm chekkers that I have never bought in the last 20 years that constatntlhy says one of three or four messages:  your mccoffee worm chekker is about to expire, you have 24 hrs to buy a new one.  The next day it's, Your mccoffee worm chekker has two daze before it runds out.  This is constant, anbout 2-3 times a day.  It is very irritating.  My rule is that for every time I see one of these pop-ups, which are virus' themselves in MY not so humble opinion, I put off buying their product by a week.  At that rate, I am scheduled (for today) to buy a copy in 22.54 years from now.  My understanding of virus/worm chekkers is that they can't afford to let a virus loose at any cost.  Thus, they are really chekking for dangerous virus' even if you haven't bought it for 20 years like myself.  They might allow small irritating virus' on your computer if they aren't likely to move to the net and destroy msux' billions $$ of fortune (and their own of course).


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

The easy way to try any Linux distribution, not just Q4OS, is to go and download the live CD ISO image for the one that you want to try out.  Burn a CD and boot from it.

Remember that not all computers can run all variants of Linux ! Some machines already run a Linux OS (Operating System) under the hood !  Apple mac's for instance, and Android are both highly modified versions of Linux.  

Lots of mobile phones, set top boxes, TV's, Internet routers, Digital Video Recorders, etc, all use some version of Linux !

Why !  Because it is free !  You can take Linux code, modify it as you wish to make it suit your design and then make it closed and sell it.  You only have to look at the games market.


----------



## Steamchick

Hmmm. OK, Lots of information from all of you, but now I'm busy (and using MS again) so will have another look tomorrow. Unlike women, I can't multi-task. (My brain is too simple maybe?).
I've lost a drive belt for my lathe, doing some E&@y selling photos, and busy with family matters - then Rugby all afternoon. (season just kicking-off, and I'm desperate for another fix after 6 hours yesterday!). Oh, and re-potting plants, 'n stuff...
But I'll just try and re-load Q40S and be more careful this time (maybe...). "If at first you don't succeed - get a proper man to do it! - or a Woman (they can do lots we men don't manage so well). or a child (best option for clever computer stuff? I just don't understand what they do or what they are talking about?).
I'm sure I had some marbles years ago.... wonder if I have lost those as well?
Have a good one!
K2


----------



## goldstar31

Ken,  the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions

I've just  got my son bribed with a spade, a garden fork and a Spanish adze in return for booking me a delivery slot again with the local grocery supermarket. Again, he simply filled in my census return.
So my only real recourse to a computer is the ANNUALLY to do my Tax Return .  So for 364 days, I do nothing and simply await each month to get my bank statements- and literally read the finishing figures to the commencing figures and see if they equal or increase! It doesn't really bother me- because  I balance my accounts on malt whisky and flowers and chocolates for my neighbour who brings me a wonderful Sunday lunch at the stroke of 4PM.
I've been doing this for the last 36 years- more or less.  For 31 years, my much lamented wife used to join me in such exhausting efforts.

True, I'm in lockdown - but theoretically, my bank balances should in crease.  The exciting news today is a walrus off the Welsh coast and that  there is  a set of  Roman stone anchors found at North Hylton which is probably a stone's throw  the Ken Boiler Maker factory.

Oh, and I put a cheap wood cutting bandsaw together. I MIGHT cut some bits for my workshop tomorrow--- or I might not. 
N


----------



## trlvn

BaronJ said:


> Some machines already run a Linux OS (Operating System) under the hood ! Apple mac's for instance


Um, no.  The Mac operating system is derived from NextStep which was derived from BSD.  All of these, including Linux, have a common lineage to the original Unix and thus a high degree of interoperability.  The following diagram may help sort out some of the major lines:







Craig


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Craig,

I'd forgotten about "NextStep" !  Probably because it wasn't too common.  UnixWare was the first distribution I actually purchased.
Prior was what ever version of Unix the University ran and the punched cards.

Then in the early nineties, my wife bought me a book with Yggdrasil Linux bound into it.  Those were fun times, searching for software, modifying it for your hardware and compiling it.

Today its is very much easier, everything gets sorted out for you !


----------



## Steamchick

Wow! Looks like you know a bit about this Craig. I shall have another go tomorrow, I.E. The Amiga link. 
Thanks.
K2


----------



## awake

Ken, Linux has a reputation of needing a resident geek - regular users need not apply.

But ... shall we discuss how often I, as the resident geek both at home and in the office, am called in to help someone with a Windows issue? (And sometimes Mac as well, but I don't use a Mac, and can only do a little to help there - primarily when I can use the command line interface to do something unix-y.)

My point is, from what I can see, current Linux distros are no less easy or hard to use than current Windows distros; both will benefit from someone to call on to get you over a hump now and then. The big difference is that there are comparatively way fewer Linux geeks around than Windows geeks. This is the main reason my parents went back to Windows when they had to replace their laptop - they now live 4 hours away, and the only local tech support available to them is Windows-only.

I might add that the Windows tech support often isn't all it cracked up to be - sometimes the techs "know" Windows only in the sense that they have been trained to deal with certain issues, but don't really understand the internals well enough to solve unusual problems. I would venture to guess that Linux tech support / geeks tend to be more likely to know the internals - ?


----------



## willray

awake said:


> I might add that the Windows tech support often isn't all it cracked up to be - *sometimes* the techs "know" Windows only in the sense that they have been trained to deal with certain issues, but don't really understand the internals well enough to solve unusual problems.



You used this word "sometimes" -- I don't think it means, what it would appear you used it to mean in this sentence...


----------



## awake

willray said:


> You used this word "sometimes" -- I don't think it means, what it would appear you used it to mean in this sentence...


Are you suggesting that their skills are only _mostly_ dead? 

(I hope I am correct in thinking that was an allusion to _The Princess Bride_. If not, my attempt at a response probably won't make much sense!)


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Andy. I am currently doing a 12 hour copy of all the files to a separate drive as an independent back-up. Maybe if it is done overnight I'll  be able to re-load Q40S tomorrow and give it a try.
Cheers.
K2


----------



## willray

awake said:


> Are you suggesting that their skills are only _mostly_ dead?
> 
> (I hope I am correct in thinking that was an allusion to _The Princess Bride_. If not, my attempt at a response probably won't make much sense!)



Far from it - mostly dead, is slightly alive, which proposes a state of their education that I believe might be termed inconceivable.


----------



## ajoeiam

awake said:


> Ken, Linux has a reputation of needing a resident geek - regular users need not apply.
> 
> But ... shall we discuss how often I, as the resident geek both at home and in the office, am called in to help someone with a Windows issue? (And sometimes Mac as well, but I don't use a Mac, and can only do a little to help there - primarily when I can use the command line interface to do something unix-y.)



M$ products do also need a 'resident geek' - - - - especially in an office setting and they rarely know anything much about what's under the hood either - - - - but they do get paid for that. A 9 month course at a tech school trains a M$ tech to know absolutely everything you know! 

I would disagree at least somewhat with your first statement. 
It is only after some 20 years of running a Linux variant almost exclusively that I'm really starting to 'get under the hood' as it were. 
I was fortunate in finding a mentor, who also became a friend, but as he's passed out of this mortal coil some almost a year ago I now get to fly solo. 

I have done things like set up a multi-gpu multi-monitor system some 9 years ago so I have tackled some 'unusual' (most linux coders don't seem to get that more monitor space is VERY useful) tasks in Linux - - - some (sometimes a LOT) time searching with my favorite DuckDuckGo search engine most often gets me what I need to find for 'usable' information. 

Linux still specializes in an 'RTFM' response with information pages developed for those that do know what they're doing as reminder clues and with precious little for a noob to actually understand what is needed and especially not what to look for when things don't go right. 

Even with that - - - - I prefer to use Linux - - - - at least I can ask someone what the bleeping blizacks they were trying to do with xxxx software and they most often respond. In the M$ word users are their testing squad and if it don't work - - - - - good luck!

Linux IS an interesting community even if its not all of what it could be. The social graces are either way over done (political correctness gone amok) are almost non-existent  - - - - but that seems to be quite 'normal' in the rest of the world as well - - - sigh.


----------



## aarggh

I would actually say with the advancement of device drivers over the years Windows has become far more easily supported, and for most people using it is still a fairly easy task for even the biggest noobs. Apart from the bloatware, invasive telemetry, and crap of releases, it is very usable by the vast majority, and most issues are reasonably easy to resolve or to simply google. I'm not saying I love Windows, I think Win7 was the best usable release since WInXP, and I absolutely loathe Win10 (and especially that stupid Metro), but I've seen support demands for Windows users decrease quite dramatically over the years, now it's more getting some particular app to work, or issues learning how to use the app more than anything I find.

I only use the CLI in nix's, and the last GUI version I ran was Suse, which was an awesome distro in it's day, and I assume the desktop experience has improved over the years since, however I'd hate to support the same noobs running Linux.

If desktop support is the seventh level of hell, desktop support for newbie Linux users must the 9th or 10th level I reckon!


----------



## Steamchick

aargh... I'm notsure if I can comment... Having tried loading Q40S for the 5 or 6th time, (I have spent more than the requisite few hours on this already!), instead of a DOS screen that won't accept the password I typed in when i downloaded (3 times so far!) the software, it now tells me (repeatedly  - and yes, I have unloaded the software, deleted all references, switched OFF and On and stood at the bottom of the stairs shouting "LINUX" to the heavens... - and even not drunk coffee all the while)  - "the compressed file is corrupt" upon which DOS frreezes and I have to unload everything again.... so maybe "Aarrgh!" is the appropriate response?
I think enough for one day (I.E. the last 8 hours...).
The task is becoming so mentally exhausting I may give up, and live with a slow PC MS affair a little while longer...
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> aargh... I'm notsure if I can comment... Having tried loading Q40S for the 5 or 6th time, (I have spent more than the requisite few hours on this already!), instead of a DOS screen that won't accept the password I typed in when i downloaded (3 times so far!) the software, it now tells me (repeatedly  - and yes, I have unloaded the software, deleted all references, switched OFF and On and stood at the bottom of the stairs shouting "LINUX" to the heavens... - and even not drunk coffee all the while)  - "the compressed file is corrupt" upon which DOS frreezes and I have to unload everything again.... so maybe "Aarrgh!" is the appropriate response?
> I think enough for one day (I.E. the last 8 hours...).
> The task is becoming so mentally exhausting I may give up, and live with a slow PC MS affair a little while longer...
> K2



Well Ken it might help you to read and listen to what some people tell you.

I was very specific in telling you to download the live CD iso and burn a bootable CD.  I even offered to post one to you !


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Baron, I was listening, but confused by simply not understanding all the messages - as there were many adding their two-pennorth of suggestions. 
The simple suggestion seemed to be to run it from the main hard-drive - and someone said "Q40S" did that very easily... - I was sold on that, as I want to be able to use the 20 years or more of files I already have on the hard-drive. Or maybe I mis-understood their idea?
You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?
I don't mean to be rude, but the CD idea didn't click with what I have learned to do using MS since the late 1980s.... so I shelved the idea while I tried other things - that I am now unable to make work... But maybe that is how children learn to listen? 
I have just tried to download Linux-Lite - as that seemed to be what the Linux Website recommends for "Linux beginners" - I assume I qualify? But having watched some videos, and read some words, I am no better off because I don't know what language they are using. Their words don't seem to have any useful meaning to me? The video starts with "When you have installed Linux OS to your system... - well how do I do that? - whatever 1.2Gb I downloaded says it is on an "H"-drive DVD... - I have a DVD in the front of the machine, but there isn't a DVD in it, nor have I used it for the computer - ever. (I have played some music DVDs, so it is connected and plays.). Unfortunately, years ago I could install "programmes" onto the PC, but Windows 10 only deals in "Apps" and can only unload what exists, not load new ones... (I assume "App" = "Application" = something within the "Programme"?). I don't even know what the jargon means so I'll stop talking nonsense here.

So Maybe I'll simply go back into my little shell where I feel comfortable and carry on with MS until I get curious about the "Big World" on another day?
Thanks for your concern, I'll come back tomorrow..?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Baron, I was listening, but confused by simply not understanding all the messages - as there were many adding their two-pennorth of suggestions.
> The simple suggestion seemed to be to run it from the main hard-drive - and someone said "Q40S" did that very easily... - I was sold on that, as I want to be able to use the 20 years or more of files I already have on the hard-drive. Or maybe I mis-understood their idea?
> You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?
> I don't mean to be rude, but the CD idea didn't click with what I have learned to do using MS since the late 1980s.... so I shelved the idea while I tried other things - that I am now unable to make work... But maybe that is how children learn to listen?
> I have just tried to download Linux-Lite - as that seemed to be what the Linux Website recommends for "Linux beginners" - I assume I qualify? But having watched some videos, and read some words, I am no better off because I don't know what language they are using. Their words don't seem to have any useful meaning to me? The video starts with "When you have installed Linux OS to your system... - well how do I do that? - whatever 1.2Gb I downloaded says it is on an "H"-drive DVD... - I have a DVD in the front of the machine, but there isn't a DVD in it, nor have I used it for the computer - ever. (I have played some music DVDs, so it is connected and plays.). Unfortunately, years ago I could install "programmes" onto the PC, but Windows 10 only deals in "Apps" and can only unload what exists, not load new ones... (I assume "App" = "Application" = something within the "Programme"?). I don't even know what the jargon means so I'll stop talking nonsense here.
> 
> So Maybe I'll simply go back into my little shell where I feel comfortable and carry on with MS until I get curious about the "Big World" on another day?
> Thanks for your concern, I'll come back tomorrow..?
> K2


OH, Har har har, hardy har har.  Ken, If I could reach over there, I would kik your ash.  Do as Baron points out.  Put it on a CD, I don't kare whether or not u haven't used one for a hundred years!  This exercise he is telling about, is NOT a permanent solution.  It's the noob solution.  You know?  NOOB, New boy on the block?  It's the STARTER solution.  You do this so that you can UNDERSTAND the basics and see how it works.  If hyou like it, you go from there.  SINCE you are a noob at this, it would be very dangerous to even TRY to put this on your hard drive.  You don't seem to understand how wonderful this idea is:  you can install on a thumbdrive and run your machine!  This means you can EASILY try out several different operating system s WITHOUT installing on your hard drive which takes a long time and may mess something up.  Please follow Baron's advice.  If not, I will have to fly out there froM the Soviet of Washington and kik hyour ash (and incidentally look over your shop too) and hyou can pay my plane ticket.

BTW, "app" is somebodies attempt at re-genning "program".  It means the same thing, probably changed because a lot of dummies out there thot that if it was a "programm"  you had to be a geek to use it.  It's laughable, and myself being a suspicious conspiracy nut bag, naturally, thimpgks there is some sinister reason for this.  Well, I thimpfk "app" is cell-phone speak for "program" that spilled over into computer speak.

I thimpfk you are making this Linux thing far too difficult.  (Dr. Johnson here:  "Tell me about your mother.  Did she have a deep fear of change?")

There is also the problem that when you "install" it on msux, that when you boot up, it actually is booting up in msux  and hyou are not aware of that.  Then msux tries to run an unrunnable program.  I don't know for sure what's going on.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Ken, Richard, Guys,

Richard summed it up in his own imitable way !

The reason that I very specifically referred to the "Bootable ISO"  which you have to burn to a CD, put it on a USB memory stick if you must, is that it will not alter your machine or your files or your data in any way.  Everything will run from the CD drive !

This has a number of advantages, you get a usable operating system that you can use, play about with and decide if you like it or not.  If you like it there is an icon on the desktop that will install it for you, and ask the appropriate questions along the way.  If you decide that NO its not for you, you haven't lost anything, just move on to another distribution and try that, or not !

One of the advantages that Linux has is that it will probe your machine to find out what is there that it knows about, and automatically install suitable software to utilise it.  This relives you of having to search and find a lot of software that makes your computer work/run.  You still may have to obtain suitable software from the repository, but that is just a few mouse clicks.

As Richard said this is the newbie option !  Anyway I don't want him kicking anybodies ass.

I hope that I've covered most of the important points !


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

I've just been back and re-read some points that you seem to have odd ideas about.



> You idea of running off a CD sounded just a bit "Heath-Robinson" to me... I haven't used CDs in computers for 15 years or more I reckon. I also had the experience that trying to run Linux from a "shop-bought" memory stick had limitations that it didn't access the hard-drive - so how could I use those files? - Is the CD method just the same?



Running from a CD is the standard way of trying to protect you, the user, from damaging your existing operating system.  MS will cock it up for you at the drop of a hat.  The bootable ISO is intended not to allow you to access your existing system.  Not because it wants you to install Linux, but to prevent you inadvertently doing damage and then blaming Linux because you didn't understand what you were doing.

Forget what you think you know about Msux !


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Ken, Richard, Guys,
> 
> Richard summed it up in his own imitable way !
> 
> The reason that I very specifically referred to the "Bootable ISO"  which you have to burn to a CD, put it on a USB memory stick if you must, is that it will not alter your machine or your files or your data in any way.  Everything will run from the CD drive !
> 
> This has a number of advantages, you get a usable operating system that you can use, play about with and decide if you like it or not.  If you like it there is an icon on the desktop that will install it for you, and ask the appropriate questions along the way.  If you decide that NO its not for you, you haven't lost anything, just move on to another distribution and try that, or not !
> 
> One of the advantages that Linux has is that it will probe your machine to find out what is there that it knows about, and automatically install suitable software to utilise it.  This relives you of having to search and find a lot of software that makes your computer work/run.  You still may have to obtain suitable software from the repository, but that is just a few mouse clicks.
> 
> As Richard said this is the newbie option !  Anyway I don't want him kicking anybodies ass.
> 
> I hope that I've covered most of the important points !


I thot Britain had lots of ASH trees.  I was going to kik the ash!


----------



## aarggh

For those Windows users who want to try a live Linux distro but don't have a cd/dvd drive, there' a brilliant Windows utility called "Rufus" you can download to create a bootable USB. It' as easy as plug the usb in, point Rufus to the iso image of the downloaded Linux distro, and select the usb as the destination.

You may also need to go into your BIOS to allow booting from USB, you can read the details about that on the Rufus web page.

As others have said, loading from a live (means not installed) version of Linux protects your PC and files from being overwritten. Most distros will also auto mount any partitions it sees so you can access your hard disk safely from within Linux.


----------



## Richard Hed

aarggh said:


> For those Windows users who want to try a live Linux distro but don't have a cd/dvd drive, there' a brilliant Windows utility called "Rufus" you can download to create a bootable USB. It' as easy as plug the usb in, point Rufus to the iso image of the downloaded Linux distro, and select the usb as the destination.
> 
> You may also need to go into your BIOS to allow booting from USB, you can read the details about that on the Rufus web page.
> 
> As others have said, loading from a live (means not installed) version of Linux protects your PC and files from being overwritten. Most distros will also auto mount any partitions it sees so you can access your hard disk safely from within Linux.


Yes, the BIOS.  If you don't have experience with the BIOS, it may seem a bit intimidating.  THis is done in a DOS environment just at boot up time.  It's not difficult, however, you must be careful.  I have done this a lot and am quite comfortable with it.  For those of you whom have never done this, it's simple:  search around in the various menus without changing anything until you find the menu that is called something like "boot sequence"  or something similar.  This is a setting that tells the machine to look FIRST at whatever you set it to. 

 In the case of a CD iso, you want to set the settings to CD as number 1.  If it is a USB iso, you want to set it to USB as number 1.  The menu will also have a 2nd place to look for a boot sequence and I thimpfk a 3rd and maybe more.  It's been a while and I doesn't remembger it all.  The biggest ttrick you must know to get to the BIOS is that there is one of your buttons, usually f10, f11, f12 and sometimes another button.  

Usually, you are not told which button this is but I would thimpfk you could find it on-line.  At boot time, you must push this button before you get to msux.  It won't hurt your machine to try different buttons till hyou find the right one, but what ever you do, do not push more than ONE button.  For instance, first try f10.  You can push it several times and that's OK, but don't be pushing f11 or what ever till you find out that it didn't work.  If it doesn't work, boot up with msux then restart and try the next button.  Do not take council of your fears--as long as this is NOT installed on your hard drive.


----------



## Steamchick

Gents, one and all,
I humbly thank you for your advice.
Maybe I am old fashioned, untrained and I am definitely a "Newbee"!
In the past (that place we remember with rose-tinted memories) I remember loading "programmes" and telling the .exe file to "Run"... didn't seem like rocket science - certainly not the depth of "computer fiddling" that you suggest I shall need to do with Linux.
But W10 is now using "new-speak" (from A. Huxley's Brave new world? - Or Orwell's 1984?? - I don't know... - I just don't speak using "new-speak"). I.E. it has "Apps" - and you can't install "Apps"! - but you can UNINSTALL them...
I did (in my naiveté) expect to have to tell the web where to file the stuff I was downloading. But it knew where to put it - didn't tell me - and just put it there. I didn't have any prompts or possibility to say "C-drive - this or that file", or another drive - such as a CD on memory stick. (I have a spare 16Gb I could use, but it only needs less than 2Gb so I could - potentially - use a 2Gb stick?). 
But maybe you can help, and explain why the downloaded Q40S that worked first time as far as the ID and Password stage didn't work? (from experience) I am ESPECIALLY careful when typing new ID/PW info into a website - as to get it wrong leads to hair-loss! - That aside, I have removed Q40S - yet again - and at the last install had the message "X2 Compressed data is corrupt" - which I hadn't achieved on the first 4 attempts to load Q40S. Maybe I don't need it anyway? - I have an "Xtra-PC" stick I BOUGHT.... which loads easily when I reconfigure the start-up BIOS. (Thanks Richard - I understood what you were explaining as I have been there and done that!). So I reckon I'll not bother downloading anything else until I get to grips with LINUX using that OS. I want to get Linux to read the C: drive files - if it can? (e.g. photos? documents in "Office" formats? pdfs?). I can manage to get it to run Firefox (the easy bit) so can access the web - and talk to you. But how do I get it to read the files on the C: drive? Or any other drive?
Meanwhile, I have a fence to paint, a ceramic burner design I want to confirm (I am more comfortable empirically developing designs of gas flows inside burners than doing the aerodynamic theory - so I do it on paper with a calculator, then prove it in the garage, not on the computer!). I have a design of a burner for the large commercial market of "big-boys' toys" - that finances the materials so I can design burners for other applications. The next is for a 6" diameter 6" high vertical boiler for a shunting loco (5" gauge). I am currently over 5kW from a 5 1/2" diameter burner, but have 2 "dead-eye" spots to resolve (That's a design variant that didn't work). Then I have a Cornish marine boiler to test and finish, a few models to make - water pumps, infernal combustion engines, and steam engines, a book or 3 to read, grass to mow, wife to hug, Oh, then Xtra-PC Linux sitting in the box.
Sun is out, it isn't windy - Fence painting here I come!
Thanks for your time and effort so far. I'll get back WHEN I get stuck with Xtra-PC Linux.
K2


----------



## L98fiero

Steamchick said:


> Gents, one and all,
> I humbly thank you for your advice.
> Maybe I am old fashioned, untrained and I am definitely a "Newbee"!


Don't sell yourself short, this has been a problem since MS-Dos at a minimum and I'd suggest all through human history, those that are telling you how to run a 'bootable CD' don't understand that you don't know how to configure your pc to run that CD, most aren't setup initially to do that, at least none of mine are. The manuals you used to get with DOS were written by the people that designed the system and couldn't imagine that you don't understand the language they are speaking. I'd suggest that's where the disconnect was between you(and me) and BaronJ, he is very fluent in the internal workings and terminology and us not so much, that we end up making assumptions, not imagining anyone would not know how to do something, and end up speaking different languages.


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Gents, one and all,
> I humbly thank you for your advice.
> Maybe I am old fashioned, untrained and I am definitely a "Newbee"!
> In the past (that place we remember with rose-tinted memories) I remember loading "programmes" and telling the .exe file to "Run"... didn't seem like rocket science - certainly not the depth of "computer fiddling" that you suggest I shall need to do with Linux.
> But W10 is now using "new-speak" (from A. Huxley's Brave new world? - Or Orwell's 1984?? - I don't know... - I just don't speak using "new-speak"). I.E. it has "Apps" - and you can't install "Apps"! - but you can UNINSTALL them...
> I did (in my naiveté) expect to have to tell the web where to file the stuff I was downloading. But it knew where to put it - didn't tell me - and just put it there. I didn't have any prompts or possibility to say "C-drive - this or that file", or another drive - such as a CD on memory stick. (I have a spare 16Gb I could use, but it only needs less than 2Gb so I could - potentially - use a 2Gb stick?).
> But maybe you can help, and explain why the downloaded Q40S that worked first time as far as the ID and Password stage didn't work? (from experience) I am ESPECIALLY careful when typing new ID/PW info into a website - as to get it wrong leads to hair-loss! - That aside, I have removed Q40S - yet again - and at the last install had the message "X2 Compressed data is corrupt" - which I hadn't achieved on the first 4 attempts to load Q40S. Maybe I don't need it anyway? - I have an "Xtra-PC" stick I BOUGHT.... which loads easily when I reconfigure the start-up BIOS. (Thanks Richard - I understood what you were explaining as I have been there and done that!). So I reckon I'll not bother downloading anything else until I get to grips with LINUX using that OS. I want to get Linux to read the C: drive files - if it can? (e.g. photos? documents in "Office" formats? pdfs?). I can manage to get it to run Firefox (the easy bit) so can access the web - and talk to you. But how do I get it to read the files on the C: drive? Or any other drive?
> Meanwhile, I have a fence to paint, a ceramic burner design I want to confirm (I am more comfortable empirically developing designs of gas flows inside burners than doing the aerodynamic theory - so I do it on paper with a calculator, then prove it in the garage, not on the computer!). I have a design of a burner for the large commercial market of "big-boys' toys" - that finances the materials so I can design burners for other applications. The next is for a 6" diameter 6" high vertical boiler for a shunting loco (5" gauge). I am currently over 5kW from a 5 1/2" diameter burner, but have 2 "dead-eye" spots to resolve (That's a design variant that didn't work). Then I have a Cornish marine boiler to test and finish, a few models to make - water pumps, infernal combustion engines, and steam engines, a book or 3 to read, grass to mow, wife to hug, Oh, then Xtra-PC Linux sitting in the box.
> Sun is out, it isn't windy - Fence painting here I come!
> Thanks for your time and effort so far. I'll get back WHEN I get stuck with Xtra-PC Linux.
> K2


So you managed to get the Linux OS operating?  I doesn't know how far Linux has come since SUSE 9.2 which is more than 15 years ago, which I have and like very much, so I cannot actually know or recommend a procedure that works for sure.  But in the olden-days, or dark ages if you prefer, we had to "mount" the drive or partition.  (I partitioned my drives into smaller more easily handled pieces thus I had drives up to H: or L: which I used for various purposes like "conspiracies", "history", "porn", "PHYSICS",  and so on.)  I forget the exact procedure for "mount" but you can look it up on the net or if you has a complete install you can look it up using several search procedures:  "man mount"  which means look up in the "manual" the word "mount"  There are other dictionaries/libraries besides "man" too.  I forget for the time what they are but Baron and L98 probably can tell you taht.  

If you get this far, that is, if you can learn how to mount a hard drive (sounds naughty to a naughty old man like myself), then you should learn the word 'alias".  Alias is a method for making pseudo-commands.  They really aren't "pseudo" but they are not built in commands of the system.  They are onhly for your convenience.  For instance, I wanted to have a quick command (Oh, BTW, msux's DOS has a similar command) to list the contents of a directory so I made up an "LS" alias which means 'list', in DOS this was "dir".  So for listing a directory like H:, the command would be something like this:  alias LSH = LS H: or for D: drive - alias LSD = LS D:

I also used an alias to mount a drive so I didn't have to type all that crap in the correct order all the time:

alias mount d: = md   Or whatever.  Can't remembers  the exact wording.  You can use any combination of letters for your alias you want just as long as they are not a built in command or one set taht you ahve already used.

Am not sure those are the correct way to write it, but you can llook up 'alias' on man.  You must understand, that I am way behind the times on how Linux has developed over the last 10-15 years.  Before, one had to have a lot of determination to use Linux or a lot of anger with msux or a lot of interest and curiosity.  I have and had ALL those.  So I didn't mind learning new methods, in fact, it was quite fun as REAL learning always is.

So to find your drives, there are several things you have to find or use.  I have not covered all the things, and may not have covered them correctly.  It can be a steep learning curve some times but quite enjoyable once the hurdles are jumpt.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

QUOTE:


> I have removed Q40S - yet again - and at the last install had the message "X2 Compressed data is corrupt" - which I hadn't achieved on the first 4 attempts to load Q40S.



That is Msux getting in the way !  They don't want you to run anything other than their OS on their computer.  Wins quite deliberately will not run Linux.

Now I've heard about Windows Subsystem for Linux but that is about it, it will only run on W10.  However Msux is loosing the battle to kill Linux off and this is their way of locking you in !  To use it you have to join their group, this is the way they are going to be able to say that Linux users are Win10 users.

Follow the money !


----------



## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> So you managed to get the Linux OS operating?  I doesn't know how far Linux has come since SUSE 9.2 which is more than 15 years ago, which I have and like very much, so I cannot actually know or recommend a procedure that works for sure.  But in the olden-days, or dark ages if you prefer, we had to "mount" the drive or partition.  (I partitioned my drives into smaller more easily handled pieces thus I had drives up to H: or L: which I used for various purposes like "conspiracies", "history", "porn", "PHYSICS",  and so on.)  I forget the exact procedure for "mount" but you can look it up on the net or if you has a complete install you can look it up using several search procedures:  "man mount"  which means look up in the "manual" the word "mount"  There are other dictionaries/libraries besides "man" too.  I forget for the time what they are but Baron and L98 probably can tell you taht.
> 
> If you get this far, that is, if you can learn how to mount a hard drive (sounds naughty to a naughty old man like myself), then you should learn the word 'alias".  Alias is a method for making pseudo-commands.  They really aren't "pseudo" but they are not built in commands of the system.  They are onhly for your convenience.  For instance, I wanted to have a quick command (Oh, BTW, msux's DOS has a similar command) to list the contents of a directory so I made up an "LS" alias which means 'list', in DOS this was "dir".  So for listing a directory like H:, the command would be something like this:  alias LSH = LS H: or for D: drive - alias LSD = LS D:
> 
> I also used an alias to mount a drive so I didn't have to type all that crap in the correct order all the time:
> 
> alias mount d: = md   Or whatever.  Can't remembers  the exact wording.  You can use any combination of letters for your alias you want just as long as they are not a built in command or one set taht you ahve already used.
> 
> Am not sure those are the correct way to write it, but you can llook up 'alias' on man.  You must understand, that I am way behind the times on how Linux has developed over the last 10-15 years.  Before, one had to have a lot of determination to use Linux or a lot of anger with msux or a lot of interest and curiosity.  I have and had ALL those.  So I didn't mind learning new methods, in fact, it was quite fun as REAL learning always is.
> 
> So to find your drives, there are several things you have to find or use.  I have not covered all the things, and may not have covered them correctly.  It can be a steep learning curve some times but quite enjoyable once the hurdles are jumpt.



Most of that is very much automatic today.  Most Linux distributions will find and use an existing disk, CD, USB key or whatever.

But yes if you want to play at the nuts and bolts level it still applies, but most people don't !  They would rather just click on an icon and it just works.  Nothing wrong with that, until something goes wrong.

Which leads me to another point, people that highly recommend Msux are making money from it !  I know a good number of good engineers and service techs that do nothing but repair Wins machines and systems but don't use them unless they have to.

As I have already said, "Follow the Money"


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Most of that is very much automatic today.  Most Linux distributions will find and use an existing disk, CD, USB key or whatever.
> 
> But yes if you want to play at the nuts and bolts level it still applies, but most people don't !  They would rather just click on an icon and it just works.  Nothing wrong with that, until something goes wrong.
> 
> Which leads me to another point, people that highly recommend Msux are making money from it !  I know a good number of good engineers and service techs that do nothing but repair Wins machines and systems but don't use them unless they have to.
> 
> As I have already said, "Follow the Money"


Ha haw hawww.  yes, Follow the $$$$$$$$$.  Thanx for that info abut the modern ages.  I was brought up in the dark and middle ages of Linux.  Actually, I got in on it near the begining.  When did Linus start?  was it '92?  Doesn't remember but I thimpfks I started looking at that no later than '96 right after the horrific winsux '95 fiasco.  I will mount an .iso on a USB soon and test it out.


----------



## Steamchick

Talking language... the differences between my English and your Linux jargon are so great I feel more lost than when I was in Japan, and the guys teaching me "their" engineering only spoke Japanese. At least back then we spoke the same maths language...
Richard, don't mis-understand me please. I bought a memory stick which runs Linux, and when I set the Bios to open the computer using that drive, it has enough friendly programming to walk me through the set-up of language, keyboard, etc. It offers Firefox as a browser, an office package is already on the desktop, and something called Debian is there from what I remember. 
I joined this discussion because I had spent a few days with it and couldn't understand anything in the language of Linux, and couldn't see how to get to the files I want from the C-drive. And it gathered dust for a few months, until I read stuff on the thread.
Thanks for the advice though, whatever it means...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Talking language... the differences between my English and your Linux jargon are so great I feel more lost than when I was in Japan, and the guys teaching me "their" engineering only spoke Japanese. At least back then we spoke the same maths language...
> Richard, don't mis-understand me please. I bought a memory stick which runs Linux, and when I set the Bios to open the computer using that drive, it has enough friendly programming to walk me through the set-up of language, keyboard, etc. It offers Firefox as a browser, an office package is already on the desktop, and something called Debian is there from what I remember.
> I joined this discussion because I had spent a few days with it and couldn't understand anything in the language of Linux, and couldn't see how to get to the files I want from the C-drive. And it gathered dust for a few months, until I read stuff on the thread.
> Thanks for the advice though, whatever it means...
> K2


Well?  Did it work?  Have you managed to get into C: drive?  I'm hoping you have had success, if not, I can pray to the true godz, Thor and Wotan for you.


----------



## awake

Ken, generally when you boot up Linux using a DVD or thumb drive, it does not "mount" the hard disk. Earlier in this thread (? or elsewhere in another thread), the point was made that this is to prevent any unintentional destruction of data.

But it should be no problem to mount the drive and access the contents if you decide to do so. Don't know about Q4OS, but as best I recall, if you run Ubuntu on a DVD or thumb drive, the system hard disk(s) show up as an icon that can be clicked to mount them. You can mount them and copy the data to an external disk drive (USB drive) or thumb drive, depending on how much data you have.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Awake, I had copied most files to a couple of USB sticks. Just tried importing a large folder into Linux, but it only took 38% and the Linux memory is now full. So I reckon the only way is to ask it (somehow?) to open the hard-drive as a store drive - not functional program? I just need guidance on what to do and how to do it...
But I am in here today via Linux and Firefox. Courtesy of the set-up from Xtra-PC. (Not any sort of programming by me!).
Must go and watch some rugby now...
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Awake, I had copied most files to a couple of USB sticks. Just tried importing a large folder into Linux, but it only took 38% and the Linux memory is now full. So I reckon the only way is to ask it (somehow?) to open the hard-drive as a store drive - not functional program? I just need guidance on what to do and how to do it...
> But I am in here today via Linux and Firefox. Courtesy of the set-up from Xtra-PC. (Not any sort of programming by me!).
> Must go and watch some rugby now...
> K2


So ;you DID manage to get Linux to run.  Now you are learning how it works.  That's great.  How large are your USBs?  What is the largest size you can get in UK?  Can you get terabyte sized backup drives?


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## Steamchick

Hi Richard, I could always get Linux to run from an independent USB that I bought a while back. Recently - prompted by this thread - I tried (wrongly it seems) to try and Import a Linux OS onto the hard-drive , which is the thing that nearly worked except it didn't accept my ID and password. I wonder if there is something where my keyboard (UK settings) is incompatible with the Linux settings  ( US maybe?). But then repeated attempts to re-load the OS caused it to crash. I am not wasting my life with that idea now. 
But if I can get the USB-bought Linux OS to turn ON and use the hard drive just as a memory, I should be able to read my 70Gb of files... and have another 500 plus Gb for future expansion.
The USB OS came on a 32 Gb  stick and I guess is security fixed so it won't copy. (So you buy another one).
When I looked on the Linux directory list it didn't list all the other things on the USB  sockets, but possibly I'll add them quite easily? I could add a new 16Gb  USB   no problem. I have a 20Tb  back-up drive permanently safeguarding the MS hard-drive. I understood it effectively became a part of the computer, so IF I can get the processor to talk to the hard-drive I should be able to get it to talk to that as well. So I have the memory available - when I get it connected and working...
Thanks for keeping in touch with this newbee.
K2


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## Steamchick

That's curious... Just tried to extract some pictures from my camera - the latest ceramic burner I have made - but maybe the file was too big? - It started to open - then stopped the whole computer... I don't want to give up immediately, but Linux is spoiling my life just now....  - maybe the 10 minutes back to MS will be necessary if Linux cannot cope with a camera!
So how can I get it to use space on the hard-drive?
Abandon that Idea.  (Please shout at me to "STOP" at any time you think I am doing something stupid? - Being Stupid I don't recognise it myself...).
My next idea: 

With the system in MS mode: COPY ALL the C-drive files from the Hard-drive onto the back-up drive in a folder to use for Linux.
Then Open the system in LINUX mode, and simply use the back-up drive for EVERYTHING... All my files, photos, etc.
Maybe monthly, or at some interval, just once in a while, open the computer in MS mode and copy the updates from the back-up drive to the Hard drive - which is then simply used as a back-up ...
Use the computer daily in LINUX mode... so I become used to the different jargon, but not saving anything into the LINUX Documents folder: put everything in the back-up drive folder.
I understand this will keep LINUX from any interaction with the hard-drive - and assume this will allow the basic computer to carry-on its job as host computer for the broadband - or anything else it is doing that I don't know about or would understand anyway...
The only problem I foresee is that when it has been sat for a month without being turned ON, then MS, Macaffee, and lots of jobs that are secret or whatever, will all turn ON and update so I won't be able to use the computer for hours....
Step 3 seems a bit of a clart, but any non-new-bees are welcome to tell me what I should be doing? Step 6 happens when I have been away for a few days, a week or 2 (for holidays - I still remember what they were - last one was Christmas 2019! - Big sigh...).
Cheers!
K2


----------



## awake

Ken, I am not entirely sure if I am understanding your setup correctly, but a word of caution: When you run Linux from a thumb drive, you will see a "home" folder ... but it may or may not actually store anything long term. The thumb drive installation has to be set up correctly to enable "persistent storage." Otherwise, anything you "save" to the home directly is actually just saved in a temporary memory drive; it will disappear the next time you reboot.

Even if "persistent storage" is enabled, there will likely not be a great deal of storage to work with - that of course depends on the size of your thumb drive. But if "persistent storage" is _not_ enabled, then there really is very little storage to work with - that may be what happened when you tried to work with a relatively large file (picture).

I did run Linux for the first six months or so from an external drive, though in my case I used an external hard disk with persistent storage - this gave me a bit more room to work with. I did very much as you are suggesting, using the Windows Documents and similar folders as the place where I stored everything; the only thing actually saved to the Linux partitions was installed software and any settings. I should mention this was 10+ years ago, so relatively primitive compared to current Linux, but it all worked just fine.

Then I moved to a dual-boot solution, where I went ahead and installed Linux on my built-in hard drive, but I instructed the installer to load it alongside Windows. Then when I turned on the machine, I had a few seconds to click on either Windows or Linux to boot into. (After a few seconds, I set it to default into Linux.) Important note: the dual-boot setup was actually easier back in those olden days, due to Windows having a simpler boot design at that time. (I think it was still Windows 95 at the time.) Nowadays, there can be complications caused by the fact that Windows is very persistent in keeping its hooks in the computer, all the way down into the BIOS - this is a place where a tech friend would be invaluable to get you over any humps.

After another 6-12 months of dual boot, I realized I was never booting into Windows, so I finally set up that laptop, and all subsequent laptops, by eliminating Windows altogether and just installing Linux. Unfortunately, I do still have an occasional need to run Windows (to interact with the Windows-standard office in which I work, and to run one program that does not have a suitable Linux alternative), so now I have a VirtualBox installation on my LInux machine, set up with a Windows image. This way, I can run Windows as a process within LInux, while still using all of my primary Linux software. This setup works a treat for me, but of course, YMMV.


----------



## Steamchick

Andy, I think you understand my set-up better than I do! So this evening (While I was watching rugby) the PC has been in MS mode copying all the contents of "my documents" from the hard-drive to the back-up drive. Tomorrow, I'll reset to run in Linux and see if it will open anything from that drive, as it shows in the directory list. If so, I'll copy all my photos albums and other rubbish across the same way. And as you have explained the "space" on the Linux USB, I'll ignore that and let it do its stuff in temporary mode.
I'll write again at the next "stoppage".
K2


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## Steamchick

Curious... Linux won't open Google account nor Gmail... but it did yesterday...
However - VERY SLOWLY (>1 hour?) - it has opened the directory for the remote drive I have for back-up - with a copy of all my Documents on it. Not sure I can cope with the ridiculously slow speed (compared to my Hard-drive and MS)... but I'll have a go...
Any suggestions for either of these issues?
K2


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## Steamchick

Hmmmmm..... 
Another issue where I need advice. - I need to use the tablet to write here, as the PC will not open Gmail from Linux, I use Gmail to talk to folk and short-cut to HMEM. Is that Google blocking it?
And this morning I spent more than an hour typing stuff in documents using Linux office, with documents saved on the huge store drive I have connected to the PC. But after one document had 630Kb  of picture added, Libra Office crashed, telling me the document was too big! It is about 5.1Mb. Is that big? The long message told me I had to fix it by enlarging the memory... but it was saved on to a disc with over 500Gb. Of free space!
Being a new-bee..... 
I'm resetting to MS... and re-booting the PC.
Linux works Firefox - except it won't access Google addresses..... e.g. my mail and account stuff.
It is limited with Libra Office.... like in 1990 before MS..... When we had our first PC at work. - running from discs with "programmes"...
Help please?
K2


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## Steamchick

Using MS - and an Office programme I managed to finish the document that Linux couldn't manage.
Just what I need today. - So I'll stick yo MS for now...
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Ken I don't want to insult your intelligence !  I did point out to you way back that a bootable Linux, CD or USB will not access your hardware unless you tell it to.  I also pointed out that you cannot write anything to an already written CD, as part of that I also said that everything runs from the CD !  The same applies to your USB copy of Linux !  

However it seems that the USB copy of Linux uses what ever memory is on the USB key that it was written to, so you are running out of space to do things, hence the inability to load your pictures, edit your big document etc.

If you had followed my advice and used a bootable CD the copy of Linux on the CD would have used your machines memory to store the data that you create, in addition to the memory it needed to run. Linux would simply swap itself out of the machines memory to try and enable itself to continue to run.

Its likely that you would have run out of memory at some point, but I feel that you would have a better experience prior to a proper install.


----------



## BaronJ

BaronJ said:


> Ken I don't want to insult your intelligence !  I did point out to you way back that a bootable Linux, CD or USB will not access your hardware unless you tell it to.  I also pointed out that you cannot write anything to an already written CD, as part of that I also said that everything runs from the CD !  The same applies to your USB copy of Linux !
> 
> However it seems that the USB copy of Linux uses what ever memory is on the USB key that it was written to, so you are running out of space to do things, hence the inability to load your pictures, edit your big document etc.
> 
> If you had followed my advice and used a bootable CD the copy of Linux on the CD would have used your machines memory to temporarily store the data that you create, in addition to the memory it needed to run. Linux would simply swap itself out of the machines memory to try and enable itself to continue to run.
> 
> Its likely that you would have run out of memory at some point, but I feel that you would have a better experience prior to a proper install.


----------



## Richard Hed

Is it still true that Linux sets a certain amount , reserves, some space for internal tasks?  I forgets what it is called.  But that amount might be too small.  You can change the amount, make it bigger.


----------



## awake

Steamchick said:


> Hmmmmm.....
> Another issue where I need advice. - I need to use the tablet to write here, as the PC will not open Gmail from Linux, I use Gmail to talk to folk and short-cut to HMEM. Is that Google blocking it?
> And this morning I spent more than an hour typing stuff in documents using Linux office, with documents saved on the huge store drive I have connected to the PC. But after one document had 630Kb  of picture added, Libra Office crashed, telling me the document was too big! It is about 5.1Mb. Is that big? The long message told me I had to fix it by enlarging the memory... but it was saved on to a disc with over 500Gb. Of free space!
> Being a new-bee.....
> I'm resetting to MS... and re-booting the PC.
> Linux works Firefox - except it won't access Google addresses..... e.g. my mail and account stuff.
> It is limited with Libra Office.... like in 1990 before MS..... When we had our first PC at work. - running from discs with "programmes"...
> Help please?
> K2



Both the slow down and the symptoms above sound to me like you have filled up your RAM - not your (external) hard disk. The USB or CD booted Linux uses RAM to create a virtual disk, on which reside not only your virtual Linux home folder, but also other parts of the "hard disk" that support normal operations - such as caches, temporary copies of things, and so on. So depending on what you're doing, you may gobble up so much of your RAM that the system can barely function. As analogy, this is kind of like trying to work on a desk that is overflowing with piles of notes and scratch pages and other papers, so that you have to keep moving things around just to have a big enough patch of empty desk to try to do anything.

T'were it me, I would make sure all of my documents were backed up, then I would go ahead and wipe the internal hard drive and install Linux from scratch. That is easy for me to say, of course, since I know how to do this - not so easy when someone has never done something like this. I might note: if you have ever wiped a hard drive to do a completely fresh install of Windows, then you are a long step ahead in being ready to do a fresh install of Linux - but very few Windows users ever do such a thing, so no surprise that installing Linux can be daunting. "It really isn't hard" - really, truly - but it does involve doing some things that most people have never done before.

I'm not familiar with Q4OS or its installation system, but I am very familiar with Ubuntu, having used it for more than a decade. The installer for Ubuntu has gotten _very_ good, certainly as good as the installer for Windows. It will lead you a step at a time, and if you follow the defaults you should wind up with a snappy installation.

BUT - I have to say this, with apologies to the pro-Linux crowd (which includes me). While Linux continues to get better and better at detecting every variety of hardware, there still will be situations where something doesn't quite work out of the box, and needs some tweaking or workarounds - this is especially true with laptops. The issue is this: in the effort to squeeze laptops down in size while maximizing battery life, laptop manufacturers use all sort of specialized peripherals (cameras, sound systems, wifi, etc.). Manufacturers work directly with Microsoft to make sure that Windows has the drivers needed to handle all of this specialized hardware. A few manufacturers also work to make sure all of the needed drivers are available for Linux (Dell tends to be good about this), but most do not. The good news is that Linux developers are very aggressive about creating any missing drivers ... the bad news is that sometimes it takes some time, or some finesse, to get these working.

So: 9 times out of 10, you can install Ubuntu or another distro of Linux on your laptop, and "it just works." But there will be that 1 out of 10 experience that really needs a geek to get it set up. Now to be fair: with Windows, 9 times out of 10, you plug in your peripherals and it all works ... but Windows has a nasty habit of abandoning perfectly functional but older hardware, so you update Windows (or rather it does it for you, whether you want it to or not), and suddenly your printer won't work. This does _not_ happen with Linux - which is why Linux can be such an excellent solution for older hardware that still has plenty of life, but has been left behind by Windows.


----------



## awake

Richard Hed said:


> Is it still true that Linux sets a certain amount , reserves, some space for internal tasks?  I forgets what it is called.  But that amount might be too small.  You can change the amount, make it bigger.



Richard, there is more than one thing that might fall under that description - a swap drive, the /tmp and /vars and /procs directories, which handle temporary data and manage running processes, the /dev directory which provides access to all devices, and probably more.

Windows actually does some of the same things. If you enable viewing of hidden and system files, and look at your /user directory in Windows, you will see a swap file and one or two other files that Windows uses to manage itself. There are a couple of subdirectories under your user directory that contain additional system files, some of which again serve similar purposes.

As I noted above, the issue with running Linux from a DVD or USB is that - _unless you remap the root directory to an actual hard drive_ - these things will be set up in a virtual hard drive that actually resides in RAM ... so RAM can start to run out, fast.


----------



## Steamchick

My intelligence isn't insulted, Baron. The difference in our ability and knowledge on this subject is huge. 
But I'll have to go and buy CDs and I have already bought Linux on a stick -all be it only 32Gb. The Linux I bought was simple to install as some expert had written instructions, made video tutorials for users, etc. 
But it seems from the Linux message I have to reconfigure memory..... I just don't know what to do. Throwing it away and starting again, as you suggest, is one option, but can you humour me a little while I try and learn what to do with the system I already have?
Thanks,
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> My intelligence isn't insulted, Baron. The difference in our ability and knowledge on this subject is huge.
> But I'll have to go and buy CDs and I have already bought Linux on a stick -all be it only 32Gb. The Linux I bought was simple to install as some expert had written instructions, made video tutorials for users, etc.
> But it seems from the Linux message I have to reconfigure memory..... I just don't know what to do. Throwing it away and starting again, as you suggest, is one option, but can you humour me a little while I try and learn what to do with the system I already have?
> Thanks,
> K2



Hi Ken, Guys,

Basically Andy got it mostly right.  As I alluded to earlier, these bootable operating systems, run from the CD/USB stick.  In the case of your USB stick, Linux only occupies part of the available memory space,  the rest is used as temporary storage, which includes everything that you do !

You wanted to download a picture, that's fine, but it has to be put somewhere !  In the case of the USB version that place is on the USB stick, the same applies to documents, your Email, passwords etc.  In the case of the CD version, it goes into the available RAM on your computer.  This storage is only temporary, it vanishes the moment the USB stick is removed or the computer is turned off.  It is also a limited resource.

Now in the case of Q4OS there is an icon provided on the desktop that you can click on to properly install Q4OS on your computer.  This icon starts a script which is programed to lead you through an installation routine so that you end up with a working system which has most if not all the right software installed for your hardware.

Until you click on that Icon you should not be able to access any of your hardware and by implication your valuable files/data.

NOTES:
Linux is very good at managing resources !  It uses swap files to help manage both itself and programs,  In order to keep a program running it will swap parts of itself out of memory and reload the parts that it needs to perform the tasks that you have asked for.

There are very good reasons why Linux is so popular, not just in the commercial arena but the private one as well.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi guys. I understand a lot of the explanation about the system that I bought running out of memory -therefore it uses the RAM space - as that fits the symptoms I have.
But how do I tell it to use another resource - e.g. The huge space in the plug-in hard-drive where I have copied all my documents?
I don't think my document is huge. Just 2 pages of text and 4 photos when it crashed.
Using MS I recently sent a document that was published which had 4 pages of text and 8 photos. I'm not re-writing War and Peace.
I have seen longer posts on this website. Don't tell me it's my fault for doing these things (writing documents, looking at my photos, doing a family tree, etc.), please help me resolve the issues.
All I hear is  "Linux can do it easily".  Not "follow these instructions". If I have been sold a dud with the "Xtra-PC" USB, I shall go back to them for help.
I just thought you were encouraging me to go to Linux and offering help, but I think I am being criticised for being a New-bee.
Not happy just now.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi guys. I understand a lot of the explanation about the system that I bought running out of memory -therefore it uses the RAM space - as that fits the symptoms I have.
> But how do I tell it to use another resource - e.g. The huge space in the plug-in hard-drive where I have copied all my documents?
> I don't think my document is huge. Just 2 pages of text and 4 photos when it crashed.
> Using MS I recently sent a document that was published which had 4 pages of text and 8 photos. I'm not re-writing War and Peace.
> I have seen longer posts on this website. Don't tell me it's my fault for doing these things (writing documents, looking at my photos, doing a family tree, etc.), please help me resolve the issues.
> All I hear is  "Linux can do it easily".  Not "follow these instructions". If I have been sold a dud with the "Xtra-PC" USB, I shall go back to them for help.
> I just thought you were encouraging me to go to Linux and offering help, but I think I am being criticised for being a New-bee.
> Not happy just now.
> K2


Ken, Dry your tears.  We're here to help.  Of course, without being there in person, we cannot be sure what the problem is.  Truth is, I am VERY happy you are TRYING.  It gives me a warm fuzzy as Mal might say in Firefly.  I know there is a setting for "swap" space.  See if you can find that and what size it is.  this is a space that is used by Linux to hold information that is not being used at this moment.  When it is needed, it is fetched.  There are some other spaces too, but other guys know more about those than I remembers.  Years back, I used SUSE 9.2 which would crash if I tried to use a USB larger than 4 GB--hilariously small for today's world.  But it's a fact.  So, keep some kleenex close by and try again. 

Another thing that happened to me 40 years ago is that I had a Tandy TRS-80, my first computer.  I wanted to learn "C", and C++ so I bought a program from someone.  I was taking a class for it at the Uni at the same time.  Well, everything workt fine for about a month, I was ha;ppy as a quark . . . . untill (dark music) . . . one day I could not compile some math program I was trying to write.  Well, to make a short story long, it took me a WHOLE month to figure out waht went wrong.  I was about to send the program back for my $$ back when I thot, well , let me try this:  it turned out that the symbol "f" was used for decimal numbers which meant "float"  otherwords the decimal point floated about.  I was using "d" which meant something else but one would have thot "d" meant decimal.  I was kikking things, kursing things, and krapping sharp knives.  Needless to say, I was pisst, angry, relieved and happy again to get that out of the way. 

That lasted for about a week, then the same thing happened, I could not figure out what was wrong but again it took a whole month to figure out ONE LITTLE CHARACTER!  Talk about frustrating.  IBM had a little cartoon of a guy ripping and kikking a computer that made me laugh -- not because th ecartoon was funny but rather because I was there --MANY times.  I completely understand the frustration.  Thing is, I didn't have anyone I could talk to, to get advice or to look over my programs.  At that time, I bought my first modem which did a whopping 900BAUD.  I used it to do my homework at Uni.  So dry your tears and keep plodding.

PS, the only place you needs to worry about being a noob is in war where they put the noob on point.


----------



## BaronJ

Ken,  Linux is not mickysoft !  Stop trying to make it behave like Msux.

If you are not prepared to take instruction then you are wasting everybody's time ! 

I offered to send you a bootable CD,  I've taken great pains to try and get you into a situation where you have a workable system without disturbing what you have already got.

But I think that you are a dyed in the wool Mickysoft person !


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Baron. Maybe you are right to call yourself a Grumpy old git. But usually you are a clever and helpful guy, so lets move on and recognise that I would like to make the Linux system _that I already own_ into something workable. I feel I have hurt your feelings by not accepting your "disc", but I have a Linux Stick already. I can't see the difference from where I am sitting. Maybe some help to "learn to walk" is sometimes better than chopping the legs off and trying to learn to use artificial ones? Maybe the artificial legs will work (They did for Douglas Bader!), but can we at least try the ones I have - even if I fall over a lot to learn the lesson? (A rugby player broke his back a year ago - told he would never walk again, he is walking after one year!). - A poor analogy, but that's how it feels from your offer of a different disc.
I just don't like throwing away something that has started to work, but needs a bit of developing, for something similar...?
Now Richard, this is not crying - but asking for useful help, as the words expressed here don't always come across as being useful, just critical and scathing. I want to avoid the emotions and get on with some real useful discussion.
Nuff said.
Now I'm back to modelling (and Rigby) - and using MS to write-up what I am doing until I know what to try next with Linux. (Until "the legs work", I'll "get about on wheels" - but I want that to be temporary! - With help I'll get there.)
Thanks Guys!
I DO appreciate your concerns.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Baron. Maybe you are right to call yourself a Grumpy old git. But usually you are a clever and helpful guy, so lets move on and recognise that I would like to make the Linux system _that I already own_ into something workable. I feel I have hurt your feelings by not accepting your "disc", but I have a Linux Stick already. I can't see the difference from where I am sitting. Maybe some help to "learn to walk" is sometimes better than chopping the legs off and trying to learn to use artificial ones? Maybe the artificial legs will work (They did for Douglas Bader!), but can we at least try the ones I have - even if I fall over a lot to learn the lesson? (A rugby player broke his back a year ago - told he would never walk again, he is walking after one year!). - A poor analogy, but that's how it feels from your offer of a different disc.
> I just don't like throwing away something that has started to work, but needs a bit of developing, for something similar...?
> Now Richard, this is not crying - but asking for useful help, as the words expressed here don't always come across as being useful, just critical and scathing. I want to avoid the emotions and get on with some real useful discussion.
> Nuff said.
> Now I'm back to modelling (and Rigby) - and using MS to write-up what I am doing until I know what to try next with Linux. (Until "the legs work", I'll "get about on wheels" - but I want that to be temporary! - With help I'll get there.)
> Thanks Guys!
> I DO appreciate your concerns.
> K2


Re-read my story about the program for learning c and c++ and try not to take what I say too seriously.  Thing is, written words do not convey how humorous our frustrations will be viewed in a couple months.


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Baron. Maybe you are right to call yourself a Grumpy old git. But usually you are a clever and helpful guy,



Its my wife that calls me that !  But thanks for the compliment.



> so lets move on and recognise that I would like to make the Linux system _that I already own_ into something workable.



You don't "own" Linux !  Its owned by the thousands of people that took time and effort into supporting it, and the FOSS concept.  You do own the hardware, USB stick that you purchased !



> I feel I have hurt your feelings by not accepting your "disc",



Not at all !  You may not have either the software or hardware to burn your own.



> but I have a Linux Stick already. I can't see the difference from where I am sitting. Maybe some help to "learn to walk" is sometimes better than chopping the legs off and trying to learn to use artificial ones? Maybe the artificial legs will work (They did for Douglas Bader!), but can we at least try the ones I have - even if I fall over a lot to learn the lesson? (A rugby player broke his back a year ago - told he would never walk again, he is walking after one year!). - A poor analogy, but that's how it feels from your offer of a different disc.



I'm sorry that you feel that way !   I don't care for the idea of dumping something that I've paid good money for either !  But Insistence on beating a dead horse springs to mind.

I have no idea what software or utilities are on your USB stick.  It is very likely that it hasn't any or any access to them that you can use.
People that sell things generally do so for money !

There are many places on the Internet that can help answer some of the questions that you ask, and yes I can explain how to edit control and resource files !  But you need the admin rights to do that, which you don't have.



> I just don't like throwing away something that has started to work, but needs a bit of developing, for something similar...?
> Now Richard, this is not crying - but asking for useful help, as the words expressed here don't always come across as being useful, just critical and scathing. I want to avoid the emotions and get on with some real useful discussion.
> Nuff said.
> Now I'm back to modelling (and Rigby) - and using MS to write-up what I am doing until I know what to try next with Linux. (Until "the legs work", I'll "get about on wheels" - but I want that to be temporary! - With help I'll get there.)
> Thanks Guys!
> I DO appreciate your concerns.
> K2


----------



## awake

Steamchick said:


> Hi guys. I understand a lot of the explanation about the system that I bought running out of memory -therefore it uses the RAM space - as that fits the symptoms I have.
> But how do I tell it to use another resource - e.g. The huge space in the plug-in hard-drive where I have copied all my documents?
> I don't think my document is huge. Just 2 pages of text and 4 photos when it crashed.
> Using MS I recently sent a document that was published which had 4 pages of text and 8 photos. I'm not re-writing War and Peace.
> I have seen longer posts on this website. Don't tell me it's my fault for doing these things (writing documents, looking at my photos, doing a family tree, etc.), please help me resolve the issues.
> All I hear is  "Linux can do it easily".  Not "follow these instructions". If I have been sold a dud with the "Xtra-PC" USB, I shall go back to them for help.
> I just thought you were encouraging me to go to Linux and offering help, but I think I am being criticised for being a New-bee.
> Not happy just now.
> K2



Ken,

I'm sorry that if feels like you are being criticized for being a newbie. I hear you on this ... but I also understand the other side of the coin.

Here's the thing: it is possible to tell a DVD- or USB-stick-Linux to use your large hard drive instead of its RAM-based virtual hard drive. It is also possible to set up a USB-stick-Linux to use the USB-stick to function as the hard drive - but it sounds like your USB-stick-Linux is not set up that way.

If you *really* want the instructions for how to set up your existing USB-stick-Linux to start using either itself or your large hard drive, we can try to oblige, but this is definitely major-geek territory. As such, it is the sort of thing that is very hard to do remotely, because there may be any number of settings that need to be checked / addressed. From painful experience, I can predict that this route will almost certainly involve a LOT of back-and-forth trying to figure out what is or isn't set a certain way. Thus, I'd personally far rather have you mail your USB-stick to me, set it up for you, and send it back ... or just send you a prepared USB-stick.

I'm suspecting that is why (or part of why) BaronJ is urging you to accept his prepared USB-stick - presumably the one he will provide will be set up so that it uses itself as a hard drive. This would ease a lot of problems that you are experiencing.

Oh, a comment on the memory requirements - you mentioned a document with "just 2 pages of text and 4 photos." The typical digital photo (say, from your cell phone) will be tens-of-megabytes in size. Let's say your laptop has 4GB of RAM, which seems like it ought to plenty - and it would be if there were a hard disk to swap to. But all of the running processes (the operating system, the user interface, multiple device drivers, all open applications ...) take up memory, and added to all of the memory allocated as a virtual hard drive, 4GB will run out very fast.

But let's say you use a prepared 32GB USB-stick, with 2GB allocated as the boot up, and 30GB allocated as the hard drive - now you're in business, and while a USB stick will typically be slower than a hard drive or SSD, it will move along plenty fast enough to get the full experience.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Guys,






						Xtra-PC: A Legal Scam Aimed at Inexperienced Windows Users
					

Xtra-PC is a legal scam aimed at inexperienced Windows users. Granted, those numbers are going down, but I’m willing to bet the company will still make money.




					blog.rtcx.net


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## BWMSBLDR1

I feel bad saying this but I am learning a lot about Linux from the suffering of others. I hope to load Linux down to the SSHD on my Dell laptop when I start feeling brave!  Bill in Boulder CO USA


----------



## BaronJ

BWMSBLDR1 said:


> I feel bad saying this but I am learning a lot about Linux from the suffering of others. I hope to load Linux down to the SSHD on my Dell laptop when I start feeling brave!  Bill in Boulder CO USA



Hi Bill,

I keep saying this "Download a Live CD ISO" !  OK I keep referencing Q4OS, simply because that is what I use and I know that if you want to install it, the easiest option is to use the icon that is present on the desktop.  If you don't want to install it and just have a play about with it, don't click on the Icon !

HTH.


----------



## Richard Hed

BWMSBLDR1 said:


> I feel bad saying this but I am learning a lot about Linux from the suffering of others. I hope to load Linux down to the SSHD on my Dell laptop when I start feeling brave!  Bill in Boulder CO USA


Like we've indicated to Ken, be sure to back up your i;mportant files BEFORE you install on your SSHD--one never knows what accidents may befall you.  If you test this first with a CD or USB, you won't have to worry about wrecking your files.  I recommend that you do indeed install the Linux flavor you like best--AFTER testing them out.  there are several flavors and if you put them on USBs or CDs, they are very easy to test.  Do this first, that is, make a few tests.  I find testing them out to be very fun indeed.  the first time I tested out several distros for flavor, it took me several days (daze) because I had to install/uninstall/install/unin . . . .  What a pain.  Now it is very easy--no install or uninstall till you found your favorite flavor.  Just download the flavors you would like to test and put them on CDs or USBs


----------



## KellisRJ

Everything has a learning curve and when I was in professional development in the US Army we all know the first day, or more, would be a vocabulary lesson. The Infantry and Artillery still can't agree on what "destroyed" means, but my view point is if you aren't close enough for it to shoot back at you, your description don't matter! Linux, in my experience,  has a learning curve, and it can be hard not to project what "should be" from previous experiences. What makes it worse, is most of us are pressed for time and just want the darn thing to work and let me get back to doing what I really want to be doing. Ken, I've been using Linux now for 10+ years on my machines after they will no longer run  "mickysoft" that every version manages to piss me off just a little more. But there was a learning curve. Just like when "mickysoft" took the user interface they forced on everyone for 15 years then changed to protect their market, and the hell with the current users.  I still HATE the new UI. Another reason I like Linux/Open Office even on an MS machine.

So, please be patient with yourself, and what you expect. It's easy for the experienced users to forget that not only don't you talk the language, but your experience to this point has been "Plug and Play" and you may have never had any interest in looking under the hood. And Linux does take some, though it can be held to a minimum, looking under the hood. 

It's much more difficult when you are test driving as you are and simply, no fault of your own, don't understand some of the limitations inherent in the test drive "No, sorry, you can't smoke the tires." One of these is the different types of memory a computer uses, the storage that you are thinking of, like writing on a piece of paper, and the "Random Access Memory" used by any operating system to , well, "think" with.  And that some "thinking" can be scratched on a note pad, "swap" space on the storage device. All of these are limited with the test drive stick or CD. As you unhappy learned. A full install will remove 99% of these problems, but you are stuck with a re-boot if you need to go back to "mickysoft"  for an application that can't or won't easily run on Linux. 

Hope another perspective helped a little.

Ron


----------



## Steamchick

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> *Xtra-PC: A Legal Scam Aimed at Inexperienced Windows Users*


I am one of those "inexperienced Windows users". - It worked well on day one.. but has since fallen over repeatedly as I try and do some real work. I bought it knowing Linux was free, but a front-end set-up was all I thought I would need... OK - I was wrong (My wife tells me repeatedly, and she is always right! - not a joke.).
Thanks all for the "votes of confidence" that I will work on this and succeed. But don't back a headless Chicken... it may run fast for a short while, but only in random circles, making a mess everywhere and soon falls over dead.
I'll vent my frustrations from time to time, but do keep coming back to this. (I have tried - not hard, not often - for 10 years or so...).

So today's sorry story.
Linux opened Firefox - and said it was Google. The link to my Google account settings didn't work, Gmail didn't work, AOL mail didn't open, E&@y Opened successfully, and almost everything else failed to open. 
So I tried to open a document to update on the weekend's modelling. 1 sentence typed - then it crashed - telling me I had used all the space allocated. 
So, trying to learn a bit - I browsed the menus and got into something where I could see each drive and the partitions.

The Xtra-PC stick is 16Gb - and looks almost full with 15Gb of OS. - As I suspected from your advice?
The plug-in drive is 3/4 full but still has a few hundred Gb of space... - I just don't know how to get Linux onto that drive. I bet Xtra-PC have some encryption so I can't copy the drive contents to this one... Is it worth a try? - Or is there a straight-forward way to tell Xtra-PC Linux to use a partition on the plug-in drive? (I don't know how to add a new partition, but there is a button on the drop-down list...). I can read files in this drive, both with Linux and with MS, but downloading Q40 etc. installation set-up screens don't let me choose where to put them - so they go "somewhere secret". Not on the plug-in drive I want to use.
The computer Hard-drive is 1 Tb. But Windows occupies >750Gb, and other system partitions use up another 200Gb or so, leaving only around 50Gb spare... Maybe that is why the PC is slowing down?
So knowing the last point, I guess I need a new PC.... (a cheap second-hand thing just a few years old should do?).
Unless you have other ideas...  - and I am usually wrong so better to ask - and is my spare 200Gb of space on my plug-in hard-drive the right thing to use? (is it quicker than a USB stick or CD?).
I'm going to do some house jobs and modelling - within my capability.
"Have a nice day" - without me bothering you! - till tomorrow...
K2


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## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

FWIW I got a refurbished HP small format desktop machine with an i7 cpu, 8 Gb ram, cd/dvd writer and a 500 Gb hard disk in it. I had a spare 4 Gb ram module which gave me 12 Gb of ram.  It has onboard audio and video, which can be adjusted to use upto 1 Gb of ram, I think that I've got mine currently set for 256 Mb. It cost me less than £200 a couple of years ago.  I asked for them not to bother installing Wins on it so that saved me £20 and they delivered it free of charge.

This is the machine that I use today.  I doubt that you would get a similar machine for that price today.  Its a HP8300 machine, you could ask "Eshot" for a price.

Installing Q4OS was simply a matter of booting the machine from the CD and clicking on the desktop icon.  Answering a few questions, choosing a password, the HDD size for the operating partition or accept default, in my case 30 Gb and the rest for the user partition.  Sit back and let it get on with it.

Once installed it was just a matter of setting up my Email details. Firefox is the default web browser, which I have very carefully set for private browsing, among other settings that are needed for security purposes.

That was about it !  I have probably forgotten some things, but that is about it.


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## Steamchick

I am thinking that maybe I should simply have your disc, blow MS off the computer, then I'll have 1 TB of drive to partition and use. Many people have told me Linux uses a tenth of MS, so the will be less than 10%  instead of 80%? And I won't need to buy another computer.
I'LL put all my files onto the plug-in drive first....
A bad idea?
K2


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## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> I am thinking that maybe I should simply have your disc, blow MS off the computer, then I'll have 1 TB of drive to partition and use. Many people have told me Linux uses a tenth of MS, so the will be less than 10%  instead of 80%? And I won't need to buy another computer.
> I'LL put all my files onto the plug-in drive first....
> A bad idea?
> K2



Ken, You are welcome to have an already burnt CD, just PM me your addy.

When you have backed up your files, before you do anything else, test them and make sure that they have been written properly ! Msux has a habit of making things difficult.  The number of times that I've used MS utilities to backup peoples files and have had blank discs, corrupted ones or only half of the files that should be there.  Once they have been overwritten they are gone forever !!!

Don't bother with backing up MS's own files, but do bear in mind that Wins will put your files in all sorts of places that you don't expect.  So explore your file system thoroughly, then you don't miss anything.

So don't bother wiping Wins off, when you install Q4OS it will ask you if you want to use all or part of your HDD.

Now when you get the bootable CD wait and use it till you get to understand things and become comfortable with it.  I will give you an Email address that you can use to contact me and there is always this forum.

HTH.


----------



## willray

Steamchick said:


> lets move on and recognise that I would like to make the Linux system _that I already own_ into something workable. I feel I have hurt your feelings by not accepting your "disc", but I have a Linux Stick already. I can't see the difference from where I am sitting.



A couple comments with a caveat:  Some of this is stuff that I do professionally.  I get the impression that a few others here have more than a passing level of experience as well.  One of your biggest challenges is that you're listening to too many of us.   One of the beauties of Unixes is that there are an almost uncountable number of different ways to solve most problems.  One of the significant challenges, is that most of those uncountable variety of ways, are mutually incompatible.  If you had one voice guiding you, you'd be getting a lot further with this. , After this, I'll keep my nose out of this, as too-many cooks spoil the soup.


One of the challenges that you're having, is that the "Linux on a USB stick" distributions are configured so that it is intentionally difficult for you to use the "rest of" your PC.  They want you to be able to walk up to your friend's machine, a machine at an internet cafe, wherever, plug in your thumb-drive, do whatever you'd like to do in Linux, and leave the PC as you found it when you walk away.

A CD distribution of Linux is not necessarily going to be configured this way - especially if it's one that's been built by someone who's trying to help you get Linux installed and working on your own hardware.

The second big challenge that you're having - and this goes a bit to the "too many cooks" issue as well - is a language barrier. 



> Linux opened Firefox - and said it was Google...



Firefox almost certainly didn't say it was Google.  In all likelihood you launched Firefox, and it opened the Google website.

Or not...



> Linux won't open Gmail...



Linux almost certainly didn't neither opened, nor didn't open Gmail.  In all likelihood, whatever web-browser you were using to try to get to Gmail, was either mis-configured and couldn't properly load the Gmail web site, or, the DNS is mis-configured and no application can /find/ the Gmail website.

Or not...  Those are my guesses, based on my experience with new users and likely configurations, but there are other guesses, and chasing many of them willy-nilly prevents you from finding your actual issue.

I illustrate these things not to say "you don't know the language dummy" -- you don't live in the language, it's hardly a sin that you don't know it -- but rather to point out that many voices are interpreting the difficulties that you're having in different ways.  As a result you can't proceed in a rational step-wise fashion to understanding what's actually going on, and to solve your problems.

Please - pick someone to listen to, and listen only to them.  I am almost certain that, for example, BaronJ can help you get Linux installed onto your machine, probably on the free-space that you have available to you without deleting anything, and get you up and running in a fashion that you would find usable.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Willray,

The Q4OS bootable CD will simply be as it was downloaded from
Q4OS - desktop operating system, 
Q4OS Centaurus, Trinity, live - 64bit / x64 ... 719 MBytes
The minimal hardware requirements are:
Trinity desktop - 300MHz CPU / 128MB RAM / 3GB disk
Completely without any modifications by me !



> One of the challenges that you're having, is that the "Linux on a USB stick" distributions are configured so that it is intentionally difficult for you to use the "rest of" your PC.  They want you to be able to walk up to your friend's machine, a machine at an internet cafe, wherever, plug in your thumb-drive, do whatever you'd like to do in Linux, and leave the PC as you found it when you walk away.



Yes this is very true, the same with the live CD's.
I've been asked to leave computer shops for booting a USB distribution to test laptop compatibility.  They don't like it upem, to paraphrase "Dads Army"


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I am one of those "inexperienced Windows users". - It worked well on day one.. but has since fallen over repeatedly as I try and do some real work. I bought it knowing Linux was free, but a front-end set-up was all I thought I would need... OK - I was wrong (My wife tells me repeatedly, and she is always right! - not a joke.).
> Thanks all for the "votes of confidence" that I will work on this and succeed. But don't back a headless Chicken... it may run fast for a short while, but only in random circles, making a mess everywhere and soon falls over dead.
> I'll vent my frustrations from time to time, but do keep coming back to this. (I have tried - not hard, not often - for 10 years or so...).
> 
> So today's sorry story.
> Linux opened Firefox - and said it was Google. The link to my Google account settings didn't work, Gmail didn't work, AOL mail didn't open, E&@y Opened successfully, and almost everything else failed to open.
> So I tried to open a document to update on the weekend's modelling. 1 sentence typed - then it crashed - telling me I had used all the space allocated.
> So, trying to learn a bit - I browsed the menus and got into something where I could see each drive and the partitions.
> 
> The Xtra-PC stick is 16Gb - and looks almost full with 15Gb of OS. - As I suspected from your advice?
> The plug-in drive is 3/4 full but still has a few hundred Gb of space... - I just don't know how to get Linux onto that drive. I bet Xtra-PC have some encryption so I can't copy the drive contents to this one... Is it worth a try? - Or is there a straight-forward way to tell Xtra-PC Linux to use a partition on the plug-in drive? (I don't know how to add a new partition, but there is a button on the drop-down list...). I can read files in this drive, both with Linux and with MS, but downloading Q40 etc. installation set-up screens don't let me choose where to put them - so they go "somewhere secret". Not on the plug-in drive I want to use.
> The computer Hard-drive is 1 Tb. But Windows occupies >750Gb, and other system partitions use up another 200Gb or so, leaving only around 50Gb spare... Maybe that is why the PC is slowing down?
> So knowing the last point, I guess I need a new PC.... (a cheap second-hand thing just a few years old should do?).
> Unless you have other ideas...  - and I am usually wrong so better to ask - and is my spare 200Gb of space on my plug-in hard-drive the right thing to use? (is it quicker than a USB stick or CD?).
> I'm going to do some house jobs and modelling - within my capability.
> "Have a nice day" - without me bothering you! - till tomorrow...
> K2


From your comments, I have learned one importatnt fact:  you have a 16GB thumbdrive and the OS takes up 15GB.  That should tell you the important item:  your space is too small.  I have begun to thimpfk of anything less than 64GB as not being a thumbdrive at all so I am a bit prejudiced on that account.  You should get yourself at least a 32GB, but more is better yet.  I thimpfk that is your major crashing problem right there.  Thumbdrives are cheap, at least in the US they are.  Second, you are considering buying a secondhand computer.  I recommend this.  Here in US, I can get a 2nd hand computer at a junk shop for 10-20$ that works fine, is a bit old with less mem, speed, etc. but actually does very well with Linux installed.  the reason I recommend this is BECAUSE it is so cheap to experiment with.  

Your biggest prob is too small a thumb drive.  Rectify THAT and I bet 1$ that most of your troubles will disappear.


----------



## aarggh

Hi Ken, as others have suggested be very careful copying files from the existing MS install, you may find files you've worked on in sub folders all over the place, especially if you use Outlook for email.

If you have another old PC or laptop handy you can trash, the best thing to do would be to install to the hard drive on that machine so you can see what it's really like to run, and get to grips with it in a less stressful manner without having to worry about data loss.


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## Steamchick

I have a much older Dell that I'll get up and running - and install Linux (Q40?) if I can and see what happens.
So much sensible advice. But also many choices. 
Thanks WillRay. You hit the nail (me) on the head!
Now I must go shopping - the sun it out - and the garden beckons too!
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> I have a much older Dell that I'll get up and running - and install Linux (Q40S) if I can and see what happens.
> So much sensible advice. But also many choices.
> Thanks WillRay. You hit the nail (me) on the head!
> Now I must go shopping - the sun it out - and the garden beckons too!
> K2



I have a 20 year old 32 bit Dell laptop that I keep in the workshop for taking micrographs with.  I keep saying I will bin it, the battery is toast and I have to plug it into the charger to use it.  I've a sneaky feeling that the microscope driver wont run on a 64 bit machine without a rewrite.  I'm not even sure that I still have the source code to be able to do that.

Anyway to get to the point, the later Q4OS Centaurus won't run on a 32 bit machine, you would have to use an older 32 bit version.


----------



## Steamchick

I'll have to see what the spec is of the spare Old Dell. (It won't load the Xtra-PC stuff so maybe only 32 bananas... When I checked, the PC Build date was 1 month before the adequate spec for the Xtra-PC stick. ).
K2


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## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

If you have to, there are some 32 bit versions under "Older Versions" !

However you do loose some useful functionality !  Plus they are no longer updated.  Centaurus is good for five years !


----------



## awake

Will Ray's advice is so good, that I hate to say anything more ...

... but I can't resist. Along with the thoughts about setting up a spare or used computer, let me add that USB-hard disk adapters are very inexpensive. This would let you remove the hard disk _without_ doing any sort of change to it, plug it in via the USB adapter, and open it as an external disk from which you can copy the old files.


----------



## Steamchick

The Xtra PC stick didn't work. After set-up and opening on my more modern Dell - the only way it would save anything was onto the odd couple of bytes remaining for memory on the stick! It would not read my super huge back-up hard drive, nor another stick, nor any other memory. Yes it would browse the internet, but that's just one small task for me. I write documents and do calculations, and am considering CAD - (stupid, I have no use for it). I even print stuff onto Paper!
And it won't work on my older Dell - which curiously has started working after being decreed "dead" 6 months ago!
C'est la vie...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> The Xtra PC stick didn't work. After set-up and opening on my more modern Dell - the only way it would save anything was onto the odd couple of bytes remaining for memory on the stick! It would not read my super huge back-up hard drive, nor another stick, nor any other memory. Yes it would browse the internet, but that's just one small task for me. I write documents and do calculations, and am considering CAD - (stupid, I have no use for it). I even print stuff onto Paper!
> And it won't work on my older Dell - which curiously has started working after being decreed "dead" 6 months ago!
> C'est la vie...
> K2


Well, there is a command called "mount"  -- do you have a book on Linux?  Linux for dummies?  I do not know about the modern Linuxes, but the older ones, one had to "mount" a drive of any type.  A hard drive will come in the form of "hd*", like hda, hdb, hdc, etc.  Other types of media use different lettering.  The obscure part is that these designations of hidden, (not really hidden, but to those who don't know...) in a folder.  Have you got a command called "find"?  Try the command called "locate".  I found that "find" never workt but locate always did.  

The base (lowest) directory is called "/"  in the older versions.  so if you go to the directory called /, you will find the folders for everything else.  Use "locate hda" to see if yuo can can find the directory with the first mount point for a hard drive.  You'll really need a book for help on this as I have forgotten the correct wording for this but it is something like "mount hda ..."  or "mount C: hda"  .  Your books will tell you the exact wording.

I thimpfks tht you are on the right track but that yuou simply don't know yet how to proceed.  When I learned this I was much yuounger and spent MANY MANY hours pouring thru books and manuals trying to decipher this obscure language.  But I eventually succeeded and spent many enjoyable hours playing Linux.  Also, I do not know how far Linux modules have advanced but you must understand it is NOT microsux which is made for the total idiot to be able to use.  My CAT can actually use it, she trys to type o the keyboard all the tyme but she doesn't know how to reed yet.  She comes up with sentences like ================================ or qerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrtyoy.  Not speaking very good "Cat" I don't quite understand what she is trying to say.

Anyway, do you have a book or two on Linux?  If you don't , then get one or two.  When I first encountered my brother tryi9ng to learn computereez, he couldn't even control the mouse which surprized and horrified me.  And there is a similarity of that to learning Linux.  We have to try standing up before we can take baby steps.  The standing up, in this particular case, is making sure your hard drives are mounted.


----------



## awake

Steamchick said:


> The Xtra PC stick didn't work. After set-up and opening on my more modern Dell - the only way it would save anything was onto the odd couple of bytes remaining for memory on the stick! It would not read my super huge back-up hard drive, nor another stick, nor any other memory. Yes it would browse the internet, but that's just one small task for me. I write documents and do calculations, and am considering CAD - (stupid, I have no use for it). I even print stuff onto Paper!
> And it won't work on my older Dell - which curiously has started working after being decreed "dead" 6 months ago!
> C'est la vie...
> K2



I think Richard is on the right track in terms of whether the hard disk is mounted. However, you may not need to get into the weeds with the mount command. I can't speak to what Q4OS does, but with a Ubuntu live USB stick, you can open a file browser (click on the little folder icon) and see any devices that could be used on the left. Click on that, and voila - your hard disk is mounted.


----------



## Richard Hed

awake said:


> I think Richard is on the right track in terms of whether the hard disk is mounted. However, you may not need to get into the weeds with the mount command. I can't speak to what Q4OS does, but with a Ubuntu live USB stick, you can open a file browser (click on the little folder icon) and see any devices that could be used on the left. Click on that, and voila - your hard disk is mounted.


Thank yew for that.  Honesty, I expected them to update it to be more user friendly to those who are not idiots but still don't have the energy to dig into the deeper workings of the system.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Richard, Andy.
What has prompted me to revisit Linux is the simple fact that Microsoft have blown away EVERY THING and re-installed windows without any of the other software I had on the computer. And now it tries to store EVERY THING on the cloud, and NOTHING  on my C: drive. I lost 3 days re-building the PC by downloading other software afresh. Like Adobe acrobat....etc. Even all my "Favourites" were destroyed. Every remembered password, etc. And sites I regularly use. (like the DVLA, Bank, Google mail, etc.) - all blown away. NO OPTION. Big Brother MS did it in one single step.. It refuses to see anything I have on re-installed software as file history, so to open yesterday's file I closed when I switched OFF, I need to find it in the directory and open it afresh. Where it used to be the last file in the "File - previous files", bit. If I am not careful, I'll do hours of work then loose it to the cloud, and have none of it on MY drive. I own MY thoughts recorded on MY computer, not MS! I don't need to be watching my back from them every second I am working. I am tempted to disconnected the internet plug from my "Personal work"  computer, to beat them, and keep the computer "stand alone". Never mind hackers, MS are the bad guys! IMHO. And I know they are reading this!
Suggestions?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Richard, Andy.
> What has prompted me to revisit Linux is the simple fact that Microsoft have blown away EVERY THING and re-installed windows without any of the other software I had on the computer. And now it tries to store EVERY THING on the cloud, and NOTHING  on my C: drive. I lost 3 days re-building the PC by downloading other software afresh. Like Adobe acrobat....etc. Even all my "Favourites" were destroyed. Every remembered password, etc. And sites I regularly use. (like the DVLA, Bank, Google mail, etc.) - all blown away. NO OPTION. Big Brother MS did it in one single step.. It refuses to see anything I have on re-installed software as file history, so to open yesterday's file I closed when I switched OFF, I need to find it in the directory and open it afresh. Where it used to be the last file in the "File - previous files", bit. If I am not careful, I'll do hours of work then loose it to the cloud, and have none of it on MY drive. I own MY thoughts recorded on MY computer, not MS! I don't need to be watching my back from them every second I am working. I am tempted to disconnected the internet plug from my "Personal work"  computer, to beat them, and keep the computer "stand alone". Never mind hackers, MS are the bad guys! IMHO. And I know they are reading this!
> Suggestions?
> K2


You have expressed EXACTLY why I LOATHE msux so much.  What I do with MY computer, which I bought with MY $$ is not a bit of msux's business!  You have no idea of the very naughty--no, extremely bad--words I use against those monsters.  I cannot publish the words.  If you have more than one computer, try unplugging one from the net and use it as you have said, but you can keep a small one connected.  I do this, then transfer what I need to the unplugged one by USB drive or other methods but it keeps msux out of MY business.  It's a hassle, but it works. 

As to Linux, I thimpfks your attempts to get it going are on the right track.  I have to warn you however, that it may be difficult.  I believe your biggest problem is that you are using a USB drive to operate your computer.  If you install it with "dual boot" you would be better off.  Also, there is a program in Linux called WINE -- window . . .  emulator, which allows you to run msux as a seperate program which in turn will allow you to use all your msux programs.  I heard, however, that it is not perfect and acts buggy.

Get yourself a couple books on Linux, try to find a Linux forum and start talking to everyone who is knowledgable.  I have to admit, I have lost track with what's going on nowadays with Linux, but I love Linux.  Linux doesn't probe you OR your system and I am sure, as a man, that you don't like being probed, even by your butcher -- I mean doctor, no less msux.  My daughter is buyinn a Lenovo this week and it apparently comes with msux 11 which she says people REALLY hate.  I thot msux had changed some of their 'probing' crap because of the anger over version 10, but apparently not.

What Linux are you trying?  Q***?  I downloaded a few versions last year but haven't tried installing them.  If you has questions, please ask.  I can help some, but I know there are peeps even on this forum who are more knowledgeable than myself.  I am quite sure they will help.

Speaking of 'Probing", here's one I enjoy:








						Interstellar Probe Proposed to Explore the Solar Neighborhood
					

A unique mission concept known as Interstellar Probe would venture beyond the solar system and probe our neighborhood environment.




					skyandtelescope.org
				




Oh, that sounded naughty.


----------



## Steamchick

_Thanks Richard, a big help. I'll get a book and browse for the Q level to suit my PC.
K2_


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> _Thanks Richard, a big help. I'll get a book and browse for the Q level to suit my PC.
> K2_


MY Computer just froze up.  Care to guess what it was?   

microsux just tried to get me to shift over to ver. 11.  These sh*tbag k**sukkers really make me angry.  I had to shut the computer off because of it and when I started it back up, there was a huge page of msux trying to get me to get a 'free' upgrade to msux v. 11.  You know, I REALLY REALLY want to reach thru the wires and hurt those people.  And I mean I want to hurt them BAD!  How dare they do this!  %^)*&)@*#$%@


----------



## Steamchick

I am beginning to think it is MS 11 that hit me! MS, I know you will read this. Your business strategy SUCKS! = Unhappy customers are trying to find a way to get out of your "data control strategy"! It is CORRUPT - as it is worse than BIG BROTHER. But I guess you do it because the CIA approve....which makes it real BIG BROTHER stuff!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I am beginning to think it is MS 11 that hit me! MS, I know you will read this. Your business strategy SUCKS! = Unhappy customers are trying to find a way to get out of your "data control strategy"! It is CORRUPT - as it is worse than BIG BROTHER. But I guess you do it because the CIA approve....which makes it real BIG BROTHER stuff!
> K2


Two hours later I have a raging anger.  I have to have a cigarette to calm down.  Not kidding at all!  What they are doing is kriminal--doesn't some kind of law enforcement do something about this?  It certainly is cybercrime.  Reaching into someone's home and giving them a heart attack.  This is attempted murder.  I simply lack the words to express my anger.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard,
Calm down and look after number 1. DO NOT be beaten by MS. I too had a hard time when it hit me. - 3 days to get stuff off MY C-drive to continue MY work - after finding suitable non-MS software and loading to my PC. Mentally, as difficult to cope with as Covid! 
The MS strategy of taking EVERYTHING to the cloud (their ownership) is corrupt. We must change our life-styles and daily practices to avoid being "consumed" by Big Brother MS. I am sure it is more than a CIA conspiracy to counter corruption on the net. The corrupt are cleverer than most - so will find it easier to beat the system. But we "lesser mortals" - who go about an honest life - will loose our independence, privacy, control of our ideas and creations, etc. to this MS action. I shall unplug before the cloud will get my stuff.
But how can we stop this action, when the people doing it control the communication routes? They have simply been clever, and followed the "revolution handbook" that says "First, control all communication so the masses only get the right message". The hidden part is "and so we get all the anti-revolution messages and can stop them". If we thought that some facist and communist governments were corrupt, surely the same rules apply here? But who can control MS? - They are richer than (almost?) any government?
Here endeth my rant.
K2


----------



## stanstocker

Hi Folks,

Sort of an interesting thread here, lots of opinions...

I've disliked MS for many years, have run linux since it came on 5 5 1/4 inch floppies and actually had SCO Xenix and Mark Williams Coherent running before that.  Even back in the PC-DOS days most of the unix command line utilities were available on my machines.  I wrote software as part of my job for many years, everything from assembler and embedded microcode to C, C++, HTML, PHP, Java, Python, and Visual Basic.  Even some COBOL on mainframes.  I've changed hardware, languages, and OS platforms more times than cars for sure.

Sadly, still have to have a few windoze boxes around for:

Digital Audio Workstations that support virtual instruments.  Most linux based DAWs support VSTs, but not Windows VSTs.  Sadly most of the really good VSTs are only built for MS or Mac.  Ubuntu Studio is good, but just not good enough.

All the Arturia music synthesizer stuff, Cherry Audio Voltage Modular, and Soft Tube Amp Room.  VCV and VCV2 are quite  excellent, but all the rest are just not available in a linux flavor. (edited at 17:39 to fix a few grammatical errors - AKA fingers faster than brain...)

Real Flight RC flight simulator.

Alibre Atom.  The most recent release of Freecad looks a lot better than previous ones, maybe this need will go away.

GWizard

My tax software.  Probably fine in a VM, will see this year.

All day to day stuff, image processing, video editing, web and email, listening to music, and home theater gets done on Linux Mint or devices running embedded linux.  Windows 10 is available on a VM on my main box, but it's sort of pointless as few of the windows only apps that are important to me run well in the VM.  I've checked this with both QEMU and VirtualBox.  I might get some time to play with adding a dedicated video card to the VM, but quite a few other things are just sort of iffy in the world of VMs, particularly drive access and some USB hardware.

Automatic updates are turned off on the windows machines, just to keep the folks at micro soft (small, flaccid?) from arbitrarily mucking about.  Updates are checked around once a month, and SOME are applied, others are ignored.

I looked at the Q4OS page, but just didn't see anything that made me consider installing it.  Just like windows, using a distribution that is very popular increases the odds of easily finding some help when you want to do something a bit off the beaten path.

It's almost a religious obsession with some folks, to convert the unwashed to the one true way (be it Mac, Windows, or linux), but at the end of the day it's just a tool like any other tool.  Anything beyond the simplest tool has quirks and things you wish were different, but the idea is to actually get something done, not to spend all day gazing upon the magnificence of the one true lathe, mill, or operating system.

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## KellisRJ

Richard Hed said:


> Thank yew for that.  Honesty, I expected them to update it to be more user friendly to those who are not idiots but still don't have the energy to dig into the deeper workings of the system.


I've had really good experiences with the Ubuntu live thumb drive and the CD. Plus the user group is almost troll free.

Ron


----------



## aarggh

Funnily enough a lot of the people being hassled to upgrade to MS 11 won't be able to as their PC/laptop may not support it. It has pretty stringent requirements for TPM 2.0 being supported and enabled, otherwise the pre-install check fails. There's current model laptops being sold on the market that don't support MS 11 so those people are screwed for an upgrade path if they wanted it.

Having said that, there's some great (genuine) utility sites out there that have scripts that can help disable things like the telemetry, upgrade nags, etc.


----------



## Steamchick

I started reading instructions fpr Linux - My brain froze!
K2


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## RM-MN

Steamchick said:


> I started reading instructions fpr Linux - My brain froze!
> K2


Have you read similar instructions for Windows?  Be prepared for a brain freeze there too.  None of us was born with understanding of computer systems, you have learned Windows over years of use.


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I started reading instructions fpr Linux - My brain froze!
> K2


Brain freeze out of delight?  I take it?  So what is your intent today?  take it in small steps and tell us what you are intending to do.  We can help.  Are you intending to install it permanently on your hard drive?  Be sure to check "dual boot" before you do.


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## stanstocker

For many folks the hardest part of installing linux is getting past the UEFI boot loader in modern BIOS.  This is unrelated to linux, and more related to either 1) Microsofts continued desire to rule and regulate every breath you take by "influencing" systems and motherboard manufacturers OR 2) a genuine desire to enhance system security.  It's not always easy to change the BIOS settings to allow booting anything other than the manufacturers installed OS.

Once past getting the system to boot from either the DVD drive or a USB device installation is pretty quick and usually painless.  Dual boot or replacing windows is up to you.

Once up and running, most desktops are similar to what folks are already used to, with menu entries logically grouped usually.  I would say going from Windows to Linux desktops is about as much of a change as going from Windows 7 with the traditional desktop to Windows 10.  A pain in the butt now and then, occasional internet searches to figure out where something is that isn't where it used to be, same old same old, just like new versions of windows.  If you choose some oddball distribution for your first experiment with linux, you are making a poor choice.  Stick to one of the mainstream distributions.  I like linux mint, standard Ubuntu is good.  If you choose the Kazakhstan Hannah Montana build with the Futurama desktop in special edition dark grey on black theme have fun, let us know how it works out for you... 

My new Toyota Tacoma is very different from my 2000 Tacoma, which was very different from my 1985 Toyota base model pickup.  Some fumbling to find controls, some grousing about things that are or at least seem stupid.  Pedals and steering wheel are still in the same places at least 

To blow out a few old truths that are no longer true:

1) Linux doesn't work with most hardware.  BS.  Scanners can be a bit odd to set up although the Japanese Epson and Canon sites often have linux native applications in English, they just aren't on the US sites.  Anyone smell the stench of microslop?  Lightweight desktops and file managers don't always handle automounting removable storage well.  This is only something I've run into when trying to keep utterly obsolete computers somewhat useful or oddly enough with the current builds of Ubuntu Studio - which uses the lightweight xfce desktop.  Never have issues with linux mint and removable storage.  I hated xfce the first time I ever had to use it, can't say it's gotten much better over time.  Not everything in the linux world is sweetness and light.

1a)  Video - Most video cards are reasonably to excellently supported under linux.  If you have a strict only open source on my machine, no proprietary drivers allowed view you will still be able to use decent hardware, but may not get the optimal possible results.  After doing the initial installation, you may need or want to install the video card manufacturers driver set.  This may appear in the drivers part of your settings panel, or in linux mint there is a system checkup that will advise you the drivers are available, recommend which is the best option for the machine, and give you the option of installing it.  Usually a reboot is required after installation.  You may need to right click on the open area of the desktop to select your desired resolution and optionally change font sizes and icon sizes.  This is particularly true if using a 4K monitor.  Just as I had to make these changes on my windows machines, I've had to make them on linux machines.  Icons and fonts were just too small on a 4K display.  Not anything really different from Windows with updating drivers, there just are a lot less driver updates needed.  To be fair, Windows 10 has greatly reduced the need to manually install all sorts of drivers, on that front at least they have taken a lesson from the linux world.

2) Linux sucks for gaming.  Yup, got to say this is correct in comparison to gaming consoles, where most gaming is done these days.  Steam and a few others allow quite a lot of games to run on linux, but odds are it's wrong for you if gaming is a major requirement.  So is windows in many cases though, seems xBox and PSx consoles rule, with nVidia Shield bringing up the last of the top three.  Windows PC gaming is still more flexible than linux.  Both linux and Windows share the pain of ridiculously inflated video card prices, neither one can get you past that mess.

3) You have to use the command line to do anything.  Once upon a time this was true, just as it was in the days of PC-DOS and MS-DOS.  In both windows and linux access to a command prompt is sometimes required, in other cases it may let you do things quicker or more efficiently.  I use linux everyday and seldom need to open a terminal.  Don't be surprised to see command line answers to many requests for help on line, they tend to avoid any odd desktop configuration variables.

4) There's still a few folks doing the FUD balderdash.  Ever tried to actually get customer support from Microsoft?  Ever bothered to look at all the sites that tell you the equivalent applications in the open source world?  If you truly need 100 percent compatibility with microsoft applications such as office, you need to run windows and microsoft office.  I never had any issues exchanging word documents with clients when using open-office and later Libre-Office.  If we were using macro laden spreadsheets my results could have been worse.  If you use the most obscure hidden features in photoshop, darkroom, or premier you need your Adobe subscription.  For the vast majority of folks though, most all you need is out there unless (as I posted earlier) you require something that just isn't well supported in a way you like under linux.

4a)  If you want to see if an app is good enough, most all of the open source applications are available for Windows as well as linux.  You don't have to change operating systems to change your office or photo applications if you're tired of the subscription model for software.

5) You don't need to worry about viruses with linux.  Sadly not true, the first virus (actually a worm) was on unix networks.  Viruses are very rare.  Clam-AV is a good virus scanner.  It's not a big thing, but just as with windows, not opening up every port on the machine, staying behind a router that does NAT (if you're on broadband and have or can have multiple machines / TV's connected you're likely behind a NAT firewall), and running a local firewall are all things that are never bad decisions no matter what operating system you are using.  Apply patches.  Linux tells you when updates are available, you don't have to put up with being in the middle of a zoom conference and have your system arbitrarily do a 20 minute update and reboot without asking if it's OK.

6)  But, but, but, if I don't have a microsoft approved browser I can't do all the online things I have to do!!!!  Ever noticed that most of the world does the same stuff on their phones?  Apple and Android don't have microsoft browsers, go figure.  I use Brave as a default browser as it tends to scuttle the overlords constant attempts to monetize web use.  Firefox work fine, so does Chromium.  Chromium is NOT chrome!  Chrome is a google data harvesting app hidden in a browser, chromium is open source.

And finally, use the tool that meets YOUR needs.  Or have more than one tool, refurbished computers are often a really good deal, and being one or two CPU generations behind typically doesn't really matter in terms of actual performance.  Replacing an old spinning disk hard drive with an SSD, and maybe bumping up the RAM will often give a huge increase in performance at a much lower cost than buying the latest and greatest machine regardless of your operating system.

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## Richard Hed

stanstocker said:


> For many folks the hardest part of installing linux is getting past the UEFI boot loader in modern BIOS.  This is unrelated to linux, and more related to either 1) Microsofts continued desire to rule and regulate every breath you take by "influencing" systems and motherboard manufacturers OR 2) a genuine desire to enhance system security.  It's not always easy to change the BIOS settings to allow booting anything other than the manufacturers installed OS.
> 
> Once past getting the system to boot from either the DVD drive or a USB device installation is pretty quick and usually painless.  Dual boot or replacing windows is up to you.
> 
> Once up and running, most desktops are similar to what folks are already used to, with menu entries logically grouped usually.  I would say going from Windows to Linux desktops is about as much of a change as going from Windows 7 with the traditional desktop to Windows 10.  A pain in the butt now and then, occasional internet searches to figure out where something is that isn't where it used to be, same old same old, just like new versions of windows.  If you choose some oddball distribution for your first experiment with linux, you are making a poor choice.  Stick to one of the mainstream distributions.  I like linux mint, standard Ubuntu is good.  If you choose the Kazakhstan Hannah Montana build with the Futurama desktop in special edition dark grey on black theme have fun, let us know how it works out for you...
> 
> My new Toyota Tacoma is very different from my 2000 Tacoma, which was very different from my 1985 Toyota base model pickup.  Some fumbling to find controls, some grousing about things that are or at least seem stupid.  Pedals and steering wheel are still in the same places at least
> 
> To blow out a few old truths that are no longer true:
> 
> 1) Linux doesn't work with most hardware.  BS.  Scanners can be a bit odd to set up although the Japanese Epson and Canon sites often have linux native applications in English, they just aren't on the US sites.  Anyone smell the stench of microslop?  Lightweight desktops and file managers don't always handle automounting removable storage well.  This is only something I've run into when trying to keep utterly obsolete computers somewhat useful or oddly enough with the current builds of Ubuntu Studio - which uses the lightweight xfce desktop.  Never have issues with linux mint and removable storage.  I hated xfce the first time I ever had to use it, can't say it's gotten much better over time.  Not everything in the linux world is sweetness and light.
> 
> 1a)  Video - Most video cards are reasonably to excellently supported under linux.  If you have a strict only open source on my machine, no proprietary drivers allowed view you will still be able to use decent hardware, but may not get the optimal possible results.  After doing the initial installation, you may need or want to install the video card manufacturers driver set.  This may appear in the drivers part of your settings panel, or in linux mint there is a system checkup that will advise you the drivers are available, recommend which is the best option for the machine, and give you the option of installing it.  Usually a reboot is required after installation.  You may need to right click on the open area of the desktop to select your desired resolution and optionally change font sizes and icon sizes.  This is particularly true if using a 4K monitor.  Just as I had to make these changes on my windows machines, I've had to make them on linux machines.  Icons and fonts were just too small on a 4K display.  Not anything really different from Windows with updating drivers, there just are a lot less driver updates needed.  To be fair, Windows 10 has greatly reduced the need to manually install all sorts of drivers, on that front at least they have taken a lesson from the linux world.
> 
> 2) Linux sucks for gaming.  Yup, got to say this is correct in comparison to gaming consoles, where most gaming is done these days.  Steam and a few others allow quite a lot of games to run on linux, but odds are it's wrong for you if gaming is a major requirement.  So is windows in many cases though, seems xBox and PSx consoles rule, with nVidia Shield bringing up the last of the top three.  Windows PC gaming is still more flexible than linux.  Both linux and Windows share the pain of ridiculously inflated video card prices, neither one can get you past that mess.
> 
> 3) You have to use the command line to do anything.  Once upon a time this was true, just as it was in the days of PC-DOS and MS-DOS.  In both windows and linux access to a command prompt is sometimes required, in other cases it may let you do things quicker or more efficiently.  I use linux everyday and seldom need to open a terminal.  Don't be surprised to see command line answers to many requests for help on line, they tend to avoid any odd desktop configuration variables.
> 
> 4) There's still a few folks doing the FUD balderdash.  Ever tried to actually get customer support from Microsoft?  Ever bothered to look at all the sites that tell you the equivalent applications in the open source world?  If you truly need 100 percent compatibility with microsoft applications such as office, you need to run windows and microsoft office.  I never had any issues exchanging word documents with clients when using open-office and later Libre-Office.  If we were using macro laden spreadsheets my results could have been worse.  If you use the most obscure hidden features in photoshop, darkroom, or premier you need your Adobe subscription.  For the vast majority of folks though, most all you need is out there unless (as I posted earlier) you require something that just isn't well supported in a way you like under linux.
> 
> 4a)  If you want to see if an app is good enough, most all of the open source applications are available for Windows as well as linux.  You don't have to change operating systems to change your office or photo applications if you're tired of the subscription model for software.
> 
> 5) You don't need to worry about viruses with linux.  Sadly not true, the first virus (actually a worm) was on unix networks.  Viruses are very rare.  Clam-AV is a good virus scanner.  It's not a big thing, but just as with windows, not opening up every port on the machine, staying behind a router that does NAT (if you're on broadband and have or can have multiple machines / TV's connected you're likely behind a NAT firewall), and running a local firewall are all things that are never bad decisions no matter what operating system you are using.  Apply patches.  Linux tells you when updates are available, you don't have to put up with being in the middle of a zoom conference and have your system arbitrarily do a 20 minute update and reboot without asking if it's OK.
> 
> 6)  But, but, but, if I don't have a microsoft approved browser I can't do all the online things I have to do!!!!  Ever noticed that most of the world does the same stuff on their phones?  Apple and Android don't have microsoft browsers, go figure.  I use Brave as a default browser as it tends to scuttle the overlords constant attempts to monetize web use.  Firefox work fine, so does Chromium.  Chromium is NOT chrome!  Chrome is a google data harvesting app hidden in a browser, chromium is open source.
> 
> And finally, use the tool that meets YOUR needs.  Or have more than one tool, refurbished computers are often a really good deal, and being one or two CPU generations behind typically doesn't really matter in terms of actual performance.  Replacing an old spinning disk hard drive with an SSD, and maybe bumping up the RAM will often give a huge increase in performance at a much lower cost than buying the latest and greatest machine regardless of your operating system.
> 
> Cheers,
> Stan


Yes, yes, I had forgotten all about the BIOS.  Thanx for reminding.


----------



## skyline1

aarggh said:


> Funnily enough a lot of the people being hassled to upgrade to MS 11 won't be able to as their PC/laptop may not support it. It has pretty stringent requirements for TPM 2.0 being supported and enabled, otherwise the pre-install check fails. There's current model laptops being sold on the market that don't support MS 11 so those people are screwed for an upgrade path if they wanted it.



I think MS could have a serious fail with Win 11 unless they drop this crazy TPM 2.0 requirement and for secure boot to be enabled. many, even quite modern machines, do not support it. I would go so far as to say that the majority don't.



stanstocker said:


> For many folks the hardest part of installing linux is getting past the UEFI boot loader in modern BIOS. This is unrelated to linux, and more related to either 1) Microsofts continued desire to rule and regulate every breath you take by "influencing" systems and motherboard manufacturers OR 2) a genuine desire to enhance system security. It's not always easy to change the BIOS settings to allow booting anything other than the manufacturers installed OS.



I agree, the most difficult part of installing Linux is getting around Microsoft's desire to "nobble" the competition, by any devious means they can find. The whole UEFI/secure boot idea had nothing to do with security, it was Microsoft's cynical attempt to cripple Linux.

I wholly agree with the rest of your comments too. I have had similar experiences with Linux to you, and it is improving at an ever increasing rate.

Most of the internet runs on Linux servers as do a myriad other things we hardly think about. embedded Linux stuff is everywhere.

I have a little home server that runs on a version of Linux (Open Media Vault) and it is simply amazing, It has been running 24/7 for years without complaints and none of the MS malarky (update reboots, licensing hassles, access permission problems, and all the rest). Like much "unsung hero" Linux gear it just gets on with the job without all the Windoze complications  It is carrying out a multitude of tasks like backing up all the other machines, running a biggish data store (24 TB) distributing media anywhere on the network, monitoring security cameras. and loads of other stuff. It does it all simultaneously (and fast) on an unbelievably small processor ( an old AMD phenom Quad core actually). 

The thing was built out of salvaged bits and pieces and some second hand WD reds, plus of course a Linux based, FREE operating system. Total cost to build
it was probably less than the license for MS server and it offers me much more than a MS server could and much less hassle.

So even if not on the desktop, for backroom stuff it's Linux everytime for me.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## awake

Mark, I'd be interested in hearing more about your home server setup and the automatic backups it does. I'm contemplating doing something similar.

With regard to UEFI, I've been pleased that the Ubuntu install process seems easy and flawless. Where it gets a little harder is if there are certain drivers that need to be signed for SecureBoot - then you have to enter a key during install (which is easy), and then figure out what the BIOS is asking on next boot (which can be astonishingly unintuitive).


----------



## Richard Hed

I lookt up that tpm 2.0 and really couldn't see that it really was what it pretended to be.  With my suspicious nature and msux's reputation, I can't help but thimpfk it is a conspiracy to make msux queen witch .  I don't know enough about it to really say, but with msux . . . ?  What does one expect?


----------



## skyline1

awake said:


> Mark, I'd be interested in hearing more about your home server setup and the automatic backups it does. I'm contemplating doing something similar.



It uses Open Media Vault which is a Server/NAS O.S. Based on Debian openmediavault - The open network attached storage solution   has all the details and links to a very active forum with loads of expert advice from it's community and sometimes the devs themselves. There is also a long series of excellent, in depth video tutorials covering every aspect of it from initial installation through to really heavy duty stuff like setting up a private cloud server and beyond.

OMV is a plugin based thing with installable plugins for a huge range of tasks including automatic backups. the one I use is called UR backup which is a Server/Client type of thing which polls networked machines running a small client program in the background and periodically backs them up according to whatever schedule you decide. It does this in the background and seems to monitor network and client loads so it is pretty much transparent. there is a bootable rescue disk for optical media or USB drive to recover the images if (as is usually the case) you cannot access them like a hard drive failure for example. It does work and very well, I had cause to  actually use it a while back when I managed to accidentally part erase my system drive.

If you are used to Linux systems then installing and using OMV should be a breeze but even if you are a complete novice it is pretty easy to get started. 

I am not associated with them other than being a user and a forum member but if I sound like an OMV evangelist it is simply because I have been using it for some years and it does the job I want. It does it reliably and quietly and will do it at very low cost.

May I PM you some pics of it and a brief rundown of the hardware.

FYI this is far from a minimum configuration. there are many cases on the forum of people building servers with nothing more than a Raspberry Pi board and a USB Hard drive, Yes it will run on a Raspi in fact there is a ready built Pi image to do just this.



awake said:


> With regard to UEFI, I've been pleased that the Ubuntu install process seems easy and flawless. Where it gets a little harder is if there are certain drivers that need to be signed for SecureBoot - then you have to enter a key during install (which is easy), and then figure out what the BIOS is asking on next boot (which can be astonishingly unintuitive).



The dreaded signed drivers another MSUX  "Security feature" primarily designed, I think to frustrate the competion, it certainly frustrates the end users ! 
Luckily Linux has an ever increasing amount of this functionality actually built into the Kernel not "bolted on" MS style. Naturally quite a number of peripherals do need external drivers and some like scanners as has been mentioned are poorly supported but even this is changing.



Richard Hed said:


> I lookt up that tpm 2.0 and really couldn't see that it really was what it pretended to be. With my suspicious nature and msux's reputation, I can't help but thimpfk it is a conspiracy to make msux queen witch . I don't know enough about it to really say, but with msux . . . ? What does one expect?



[Caution : Rant Alert]

With all this anti competitive nonsense MS are not doing themselves any favours and are probably actually feeding a FOSS uprising not suppressing it. This TPM 2.0 thing is the latest example and will undoubtedly cause more multi million Dollar law suits. It is not surprising that they are greedy, they need to be to pay all those lawyers.

You don't need a particularly suspicious nature to be wary of MSUX's motives. If It looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks, it probably is A DUCK

I, and I think many others have the same views as you on this. Why, all of a sudden, must everybody have this "magical" TPM 2.0 thing on our computers to even install an operating system.

QUACK QUACK MICROSOFT [Rant over]

Best Regards Mark


----------



## aarggh

What really annoyed a lot of people is that for the pre-releases MS wound back TPM to 1.2, so a lot of people bought supported compatible hardware thinking it would be supported, only to find out that for the general release that 2.0 was now the minimum!

And to the Linux remarks, yes it rocks! We love Linux at work, you build it, stick it in a rack somewhere, and then forget about it for the next 10 years and just let it hum along doing it's own thing reliably 24/7/365!

It's always somewhat disappointing to us to have a power cycle a server that had 7 or more years constant uptime just because power rails in the DC get upgraded, or the hardware needs to be moved. Can't recall having ever gotten that from a MS server, although NT4.0 was pretty rock solid! ;-)


----------



## Steamchick

Hey guys, stay cool. I am a total newbie with Linux, so I realise there is a lot of learning to do. I just found a Debian site, with initial instructions and explanations about what Debian and Linux was all about, but in the second sentence, they talked using too many words with absolutely no meaning in my brain. Yes, the verbs and a lot of joining grammar used "American" English, but the rest should have been written in Serbo-Croat for all the use it was to me. I just need to find a book that speaks simple English, like starting with "Switch on the I/O button to I position". - I managed to do that bit (intuitively), but the first word I struggled with was the meaning of "Image". As in "download any of the following images". I didn't immediately realise that "Image" in this context was a download of what I thought of as a "program".
Please be patient with my ineptitude (I can't even manage that word without spell checker!). I'll get there. I will take a few years, but if I can out-live it I am sure my world will be a bit better.
Incidentally, I found (from ahistory of updates page) that my computer crashed and reset to a totally new Windows 10... probably because of some security issue? - Or maybe because MS tried to convert it to Windows 11 - which apparently it cannot manage! Well goose me with a USB stick! I have been struggling with Windows since XP was blown away! Does that make me less clever than my PC - I think not - just the PC is more tame and able to be re-programmed by MS...
Still, (tell me I am wrong?) instead of trying to figure out what I need from all this Debian stuff...





I was frankly so spoiled for choice I could not decide what colour to choose... so I thought I would look at the Q40S website - which had previously been recommended... (But hadn't worked sensibly for me - I got stuck, as it said my computer was rubbish... or maybe it was me, something?).
So I have a 32-bit computer, with 10% spare space - adequate to install the Q40S download for 32-bit stuff..
I shall let you know later how I get on...
Thanks for your support.
(Just stay calm! - Life is too short for high blood pressure over computers!).
K2


----------



## aarggh

Hi Steamchick, you may find Centos 7, OpenSuse, or most likely Ubuntu more to your liking. Although we don't use GUI mode in any of our servers, I do find from command line use that Debian can be a bit tough on newbies IMHO (maybe the GUI's different?). The others are a bit more intuitive, (or as intuitive as a Linux distro can be). Ubuntu in particular in graphical install mode is one of the more friendly distros and is very popular. The Ubuntu forums are usually pretty helpful too.

And yes XP was an awesome release, I still use it on my CNC machines! Rock solid and never fails! Quite amazing that its from the same company that brought us Vista, and Windows 8! ;-)


----------



## RM-MN

Steamchick said:


> I managed to do that bit (intuitively), but the first word I struggled with was the meaning of "Image". As in "download any of the following images". I didn't immediately realise that "Image" in this context was a download of what I thought of as a "program".



I would define a "program" as a series of instructions that the operating system can run to make it do something.  An "image"  cannot be run in its original condition as it is just a bit for bit copy of the operating system and needs to be "installed" on the hard drive so the computer can boot to the new operating system.  Your computer needs to have software to install the image.  Here's a better explanation of how it is done.








						How to Install a Software Program From an ISO File
					

How you install a program from an ISO image will vary depending on which version of Windows you use. Here’s how to install a program in Windows 11, 10, 8.1, and 7.




					www.pcmag.com


----------



## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Hey guys, stay cool. I am a total newbie with Linux, so I realise there is a lot of learning to do. I just found a Debian site, with initial instructions and explanations about what Debian and Linux was all about, but in the second sentence, they talked using too many words with absolutely no meaning in my brain. Yes, the verbs and a lot of joining grammar used "American" English, but the rest should have been written in Serbo-Croat for all the use it was to me. I just need to find a book that speaks simple English, like starting with "Switch on the I/O button to I position". - I managed to do that bit (intuitively), but the first word I struggled with was the meaning of "Image". As in "download any of the following images". I didn't immediately realise that "Image" in this context was a download of what I thought of as a "program".
> Please be patient with my ineptitude (I can't even manage that word without spell checker!). I'll get there. I will take a few years, but if I can out-live it I am sure my world will be a bit better.
> Incidentally, I found (from ahistory of updates page) that my computer crashed and reset to a totally new Windows 10... probably because of some security issue? - Or maybe because MS tried to convert it to Windows 11 - which apparently it cannot manage! Well goose me with a USB stick! I have been struggling with Windows since XP was blown away! Does that make me less clever than my PC - I think not - just the PC is more tame and able to be re-programmed by MS...
> Still, (tell me I am wrong?) instead of trying to figure out what I need from all this Debian stuff...
> View attachment 133427
> 
> I was frankly so spoiled for choice I could not decide what colour to choose... so I thought I would look at the Q40S website - which had previously been recommended... (But hadn't worked sensibly for me - I got stuck, as it said my computer was rubbish... or maybe it was me, something?).
> So I have a 32-bit computer, with 10% spare space - adequate to install the Q40S download for 32-bit stuff..
> I shall let you know later how I get on...
> Thanks for your support.
> (Just stay calm! - Life is too short for high blood pressure over computers!).
> K2




Suggest you hustle over to Devuan and you will likely long term have an even better experience.

I've been using Debian for some 15 years after I got tired of the every 6 months update then current with Fedora.
A long time mentor very long time *nix user pointed Devuan out to me some years ago (sadly he is no longer with us!). There are some things that Debian is doing (for the last 3 or 4 years) that are also less than 'nice'.
Suggest giving ubuntu the by as they are working like M$ in forcing upgrades from their servers on their schedule (with no way to shut that 'feature' down!!!). (Found this when I was looking into containers a la LXD - - - a great idea but hamstrung by a decision to do this mandatory connecting.)

Devuan is Debian with init freedom for those wanting to know the difference. (Devuan was forked form Debian by some very disgruntled devs.)


----------



## ShopShoe

Straying a Little Here...

I'm primarily a MAC user, even though I have built and run Windows machines, including servers and device controllers. I've played with Linux from time to time, always using "retired" PCs.  Like others above, I presently have several computers in use for specific things, some only off-line.

I'm presently looking again at buying one of the laptops sold by a company that specializes in selling preloaded, preconfigured Linux machines either as Linux only or as Linux/Windows Dual-Boot systems. 

I seem to have reached a point in life where I don't want to  spend a lot of time just for experimenting with this. Primary use would be basic word processing, email, web-surfing, etc.

What is your opinion of this approach in general? 

Two things I would like to have in addition to what I said above would be a database program and a flow-chart writer.

Ubuntu?

--ShopShoe


----------



## stanstocker

Steamchick said:


> <trim>
> 
> So I have a 32-bit computer, with 10% spare space - adequate to install the Q40S download for 32-bit stuff..
> I shall let you know later how I get on...
> Thanks for your support.
> (Just stay calm! - Life is too short for high blood pressure over computers!).
> K2



Greetings,

If you have a 32 bit processor, you will be limited to a previous release of many mainstream distributions.  No idea about space, 10% of a 1TB drive is plenty, 10% of an 80 GB drive is pretty iffy...  Many folks feel that Linux Mint is about the most new user friendly distribution.  It's not watered down, it just somehow works well for most folks without obscure little things happening.

Linux Mint 19.3 is the last release of a 32 bit version.  For Windows users coming to linux for the first time, it can be a bit confusing as the desktop is not just one desktop, but can be any of several desktops (user interfaces).  I'd recommend getting the lighter weight MATE version if your hardware is old enough to be 32 bit only.  This will look quite similar to a traditional windows desktop, as in Windows 7.  The Cinnamon desktop is a bit more contemporary, with lots of optional bells and whistles but is not a fast or stable on older hardware.  Once in a while Cinnamon will show a raw edge and be quirky on newer and higher end hardware too.  :-(

If you want to try a 32 bit mint Mate install, here is a link to the official page.  I set it to display 32 bit versions of the MATE build to make life easy:






						Linux Mint 19.3 "Tricia" - Linux Mint
					

Linux Mint is an elegant, easy to use, up to date and comfortable desktop operating system.




					linuxmint.com
				




Scroll down and find a mirror site near you or at least on the same continent and click to download an ISO image file.  Write the image file to a DVD using a DVD writer program to create the disk from ISO, or make a bootable USB and go nuts.  I don't know which app is best on a windows machine for making bootable USB sticks, seems one called Balena Etcher is most often recommended but being a linux guy I can't comment on that part of the deal.









						balenaEtcher - Flash OS images to SD cards & USB drives
					

A cross-platform tool to flash OS images onto SD cards and USB drives safely and easily. Free and open source for makers around the world.




					www.balena.io
				




Writing the disk or usb correctly is important, simply copying the ISO to disk or usb stick won't work.

Good luck with it all, whatever distribution you select.

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## trlvn

@ShopShoe If you "don't want to spend a lot of time just for experimenting", what is prompting you to want to leave the Mac world?  

The recent MacBook and MacBook Pro models are really powerful and yet go far further on a battery than anything running an Intel processor.

On macOS, the unix command line is right there in the terminal app.  If you want to install open source software, MacPorts or Homebrew package thousands of applications and utilities.

When you say "database", do you mean something like MariaDB/MySQL or something lighter-weight?

Craig


----------



## stanstocker

ShopShoe said:


> <trimmed>
> 
> I seem to have reached a point in life where I don't want to  spend a lot of time just for experimenting with this. Primary use would be basic word processing, email, web-surfing, etc.
> 
> What is your opinion of this approach in general?
> 
> Two things I would like to have in addition to what I said above would be a database program and a flow-chart writer.
> 
> Ubuntu?
> 
> --ShopShoe


Greetings,

If you are satisfied with the Apple environment you might want to upgrade your portable Mac hardware instead.  There is something to be said for not having to remember how to do the same thing two different ways.  Many open source applications are available for Mac and Windows in addition to Linux.  If it's an application itch you want to scratch you may not need to swap operating systems.  LibreOffice alone might fill in most of your needs if Base covers your database requirements.  MySQL is available for mac as well.  LibreOffice does have drawing tools.  Some of the flowchart / diagramming apps also have Mac builds.  I may be a linux bigot but I'm even bigger on making things only as complicated as they have to be.

On to linux options:

A preconfigured linux laptop may cost a bit more, the machines from System76 seem well regarded.  I played with their Pop-OS for a bit, it didn't turn me on or off, it was OK but I liked Mint better when I last looked at Pop-OS, maybe a year or so ago.  System76 does offer Ubuntu as well as their own Pop-OS.

Never having bought a pre-configured linux machine I can't offer specific advice on vendors.  It does seem you pay a premium for this option versus buying a good Windoze machine off the shelf and adding linux to it however.

For all the general stuff most any recent hardware and mainstream distribution should work fine.  If you use web mail it's real easy of course, for email I like Thunderbird as I download all messages and delete them from my host mail server.  You can set it up for the shared access flavor, just not something I've bothered with as I keep many old emails in archives.  When we travel I shut down the machine running thunderbird and use webmail for short trips.  For longer trips I copy my .thunderbird folder to the laptop running linux and and then copy it back when we get home.  Thunderbird supports filters to sort incoming mail into folders based on rules and does a pretty good job of learning your spam definitions.

LibreOffice is a very good equivalent to MS-Office, particularly as you are looking for basic compatibility rather than edge case conformance.

For flow charting there are multiple options.  I haven't been doing Visio sort of stuff for many years so all I can suggest is having a look at:
10 Best Flowchart and Diagramming Software for Linux

Perhaps one or more will meet your needs.

For data bases you have a lot of options.  For a basic data sort of app along the lines of the old Access in MS-Office LibreOffice has a program called Base.  Fooled with it a bit, it works, like access it's OK.  It's a pig to access from external programs from all I've seen.  If you want to do actual database programming in a real RDBMS sense via SQL move on to MySQL or one of the others below.

For real relational / SQL based stuff MySQL is likely the most recommended and is a core of the default LAMP web server build - Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP.
Quite a few others, MariaDB, PostgreSQL, and SQLite are sort of the other big deal open source database packages.  As you get into the RDBMS world there is a bit more setup and configuration, but you can usually just "follow the bouncing ball" level instructions and it will work.  Nothing like the pain of installing Oracle on SunOS in the 1990's!

Hope this is helpful,
Stan


----------



## ajoeiam

ShopShoe said:


> Straying a Little Here...
> 
> I'm primarily a MAC user, even though I have built and run Windows machines, including servers and device controllers. I've played with Linux from time to time, always using "retired" PCs.  Like others above, I presently have several computers in use for specific things, some only off-line.
> 
> I'm presently looking again at buying one of the laptops sold by a company that specializes in selling preloaded, preconfigured Linux machines either as Linux only or as Linux/Windows Dual-Boot systems.
> 
> I seem to have reached a point in life where I don't want to  spend a lot of time just for experimenting with this. Primary use would be basic word processing, email, web-surfing, etc.
> 
> What is your opinion of this approach in general?
> 
> Two things I would like to have in addition to what I said above would be a database program and a flow-chart writer.
> 
> Ubuntu?
> 
> --ShopShoe



I have been buying 3 to 4 year old business computers for my 'testing' machines - - - where I install things to make sure that they're not going to give me grief. 

Dunno why would would want to pay the premium for pre-installed linux - - - installers are quite straight forward - - - - far easier than installing M$ win in fact and far faster. 

Database program  - - - between Postgresql or MariaDB (fork of MySQL) you're covered. (there are more!!)
Flow-charting - -  look here:   10 Best Flowchart and Diagramming Software for Linux 
   havent used most of them so ymmv! 
personally I wouldn't touch ubuntu  - - devuan testing (daedalus iirc) would be a good choice (a very very responsive user group imo!!! far better than debian's) although devuan stable chimaera is also nice just software is less 'up to date' although rock solid!!

For those uses I don't see why you would want to run M$ at all but its your $$$ and its your call. 
Questions - - - fire away (general - - - on this list - - - very specific - - - I'll try to help please use the private mail connection on here)

HTH


----------



## awake

skyline1 said:


> It uses Open Media Vault which is a Server/NAS O.S. Based on Debian openmediavault - The open network attached storage solution   has all the details and links to a very active forum with loads of expert advice from it's community and sometimes the devs themselves. There is also a long series of excellent, in depth video tutorials covering every aspect of it from initial installation through to really heavy duty stuff like setting up a private cloud server and beyond.
> 
> OMV is a plugin based thing with installable plugins for a huge range of tasks including automatic backups. the one I use is called UR backup which is a Server/Client type of thing which polls networked machines running a small client program in the background and periodically backs them up according to whatever schedule you decide. It does this in the background and seems to monitor network and client loads so it is pretty much transparent. there is a bootable rescue disk for optical media or USB drive to recover the images if (as is usually the case) you cannot access them like a hard drive failure for example. It does work and very well, I had cause to  actually use it a while back when I managed to accidentally part erase my system drive.



Sounds good. Can you set up the background client program on Windows as well as Linux machines? (My wife uses Windows.) Also, how does it handle past backups and extreme situations - for example, when you accidentally erased your system drive, I take it that it did not start erasing those files from the backup. What about if someone gets ransomware - does it happily copy the infected files into the backup?



skyline1 said:


> May I PM you some pics of it and a brief rundown of the hardware.



Yes, please!


----------



## awake

ajoeiam said:


> Suggest you hustle over to Devuan and you will likely long term have an even better experience.
> 
> I've been using Debian for some 15 years after I got tired of the every 6 months update then current with Fedora.
> A long time mentor very long time *nix user pointed Devuan out to me some years ago (sadly he is no longer with us!). There are some things that Debian is doing (for the last 3 or 4 years) that are also less than 'nice'.
> Suggest giving ubuntu the by as they are working like M$ in forcing upgrades from their servers on their schedule (with no way to shut that 'feature' down!!!). (Found this when I was looking into containers a la LXD - - - a great idea but hamstrung by a decision to do this mandatory connecting.)
> 
> Devuan is Debian with init freedom for those wanting to know the difference. (Devuan was forked form Debian by some very disgruntled devs.)



Hmm - I have run on Ubuntu for many years, and I don't recall ever being forced to do any upgrades. Not sure what would account for that difference ... ?


----------



## awake

With regard to database programs - interestingly, Microsoft now offers SQL Server for Linux: Overview of SQL Server on Linux - SQL Server

As best I can tell, there is no charge ... but of course, it is not open source. Still, for someone who is accessing or programming for corporate database systems, it might be worthwhile.


----------



## Richard Hed

I think MS could have a serious fail with Win 11 unless they drop this crazy TPM 2.0 requirement and for secure boot to be enabled. many, even quite modern machines, do not support it. I would go so far as to say that the majority don't. 


The prob here is that msux doesn't have any serious competition from THEIR point of view.  And the idiots will not change over to Linux so msux cannot fail.  remember, they are a "gorilla" in industry


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hey guys, stay cool. I am a total newbie with Linux, so I realise there is a lot of learning to do. I just found a Debian site, with initial instructions and explanations about what Debian and Linux was all about, but in the second sentence, they talked using too many words with absolutely no meaning in my brain. Yes, the verbs and a lot of joining grammar used "American" English, but the rest should have been written in Serbo-Croat for all the use it was to me. I just need to find a book that speaks simple English, like starting with "Switch on the I/O button to I position". - I managed to do that bit (intuitively), but the first word I struggled with was the meaning of "Image". As in "download any of the following images". I didn't immediately realise that "Image" in this context was a download of what I thought of as a "program".
> Please be patient with my ineptitude (I can't even manage that word without spell checker!). I'll get there. I will take a few years, but if I can out-live it I am sure my world will be a bit better.
> Incidentally, I found (from ahistory of updates page) that my computer crashed and reset to a totally new Windows 10... probably because of some security issue? - Or maybe because MS tried to convert it to Windows 11 - which apparently it cannot manage! Well goose me with a USB stick! I have been struggling with Windows since XP was blown away! Does that make me less clever than my PC - I think not - just the PC is more tame and able to be re-programmed by MS...
> Still, (tell me I am wrong?) instead of trying to figure out what I need from all this Debian stuff...
> View attachment 133427
> 
> I was frankly so spoiled for choice I could not decide what colour to choose... so I thought I would look at the Q40S website - which had previously been recommended... (But hadn't worked sensibly for me - I got stuck, as it said my computer was rubbish... or maybe it was me, something?).
> So I have a 32-bit computer, with 10% spare space - adequate to install the Q40S download for 32-bit stuff..
> I shall let you know later how I get on...
> Thanks for your support.
> (Just stay calm! - Life is too short for high blood pressure over computers!).
> K2


No, msux did that to me too--they shut my computer off and attempted to install msux 11.  I managed to stop it, however.   "Image" took me a long time to undertand also.  It means the "whole operating system" installed at once, basically, as opposed to "installing" it.


----------



## skyline1

awake said:


> Sounds good. Can you set up the background client program on Windows as well as Linux machines? (My wife uses Windows.) Also, how does it handle past backups and extreme situations - for example, when you accidentally erased your system drive, I take it that it did not start erasing those files from the backup. What about if someone gets ransomware - does it happily copy the infected files into the backup?



The client program is available for Windows, Linux, (many flavours and a universal binary) and even a beta MAC version, I am using it on a Windows machine right now, in fact I see from the icon that it has just started doing an incremental backup.

Past backups, It will maintain as many past backups as the disk space you make available for it rotating them off by age eventually. I think mine keeps about 4 full backup sets.

When I shot my own system drive, I simply put in the recovery disk (a USB flash drive in this case) booted from it and selected the most recent backup as simple as that. 

UR backup restored my drive to the backup state (24 hours previously in my case) Windows didn't even complain when I started up again.

On Windows you have partial protection against viruses as it uses windows shadow copy as a backend which runs through the MS Anti Virus

You can check it out here UrBackup - Client/Server Open Source Network Backup for Windows and Linux 

I'll PM you details of my system shortly



Richard Hed said:


> The prob here is that msux doesn't have any serious competition from THEIR point of view. And the idiots will not change over to Linux so msux cannot fail. remember, they are a "gorilla" in industry



This is all true but releasing an O.S. that millions of fairly up to date machines can't run (or they will not allow to run) is pretty idiotic even by their standards. We are not talking about ancient obsolete hardware here but current stuff that is still being produced and runs Win 10 fine

Users WILL seek other alternatives as they have no choice.

Some will stump up the Bucks for ultra modern handy-dandy machines that will support it (few I think)

Some will go with Linux or even MACs

Most, especially the corporates, will grumble and moan, and carry on using Win 10 to the bitter end and beyond just like XP.  By then Windows 12 or 13 will be on the horizon and the whole thing will start up again.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Richard Hed

ShopShoe said:


> Straying a Little Here...
> 
> I'm primarily a MAC user, even though I have built and run Windows machines, including servers and device controllers. I've played with Linux from time to time, always using "retired" PCs.  Like others above, I presently have several computers in use for specific things, some only off-line.
> 
> I'm presently looking again at buying one of the laptops sold by a company that specializes in selling preloaded, preconfigured Linux machines either as Linux only or as Linux/Windows Dual-Boot systems.
> 
> I seem to have reached a point in life where I don't want to  spend a lot of time just for experimenting with this. Primary use would be basic word processing, email, web-surfing, etc.
> 
> What is your opinion of this approach in general?
> 
> Two things I would like to have in addition to what I said above would be a database program and a flow-chart writer.
> 
> Ubuntu?
> 
> --ShopShoe


What company sells laptops preconfigured with Linux?


----------



## aarggh

ajoeiam said:


> Suggest giving ubuntu the by as they are working like M$ in forcing upgrades from their servers on their schedule (with no way to shut that 'feature' down!!!).


None of our Ubuntu systems, or in fact any of the other distros we've run over many years, have ever forced upgrades of any kind at any time, so that's a bit weird you've experienced that?

Even critical patches for every distro I've used are only ever installed after manually running update commands.

One of the many benefits of running Linux is that YOU run it, not the other way around.


----------



## awake

Richard Hed said:


> What company sells laptops preconfigured with Linux?



Dell offers some models preconfigured with Linux (I believe Ubuntu, though maybe other flavors are available as well). System 76 is a company that _only_ produces Linux machines (all laptops, I think?), and you can choose from a wide variety of distros. There are at least one or two more.

But as was said before, these tend to be pricey. I think the only Dell laptops that are available preconfigured with Linux are the XPS line. As I recall, the cheapest System 76 model is over $1000, and that is with a very basic configuration; a well-equipped model runs $2000 or more.

Meanwhile, I have had very good results putting Ubuntu on plain-Jane Dell Inspiron laptops (their budget / home line) - in general, with Dell's I find that everything just works, even including the hotkeys for volume and screen brightness and so on.

I have had mixed results with other brands. Currently I am using an HP Pavilion Gaming laptop - I bought it not for doing gaming, but rather because it has really good speed and relatively easy to expand RAM and HDD / SSD (yes, it can take either or both), in a relatively compact size - and I got it at a great price (around $600, as I recall). I also really wanted a backlit keyboard. In general, Ubuntu runs very well, very fast, and it has lived up to my hopes in terms of speeding up video editing and other intensive tasks. I'm getting ready to upgrade it from 16 to 32GB of RAM, and from 1.3TB to 2TB of SSD. But there are a couple of annoying things that don't work under Linux - the SD card reader is an odd-ball unit that Linux almost but not quite recognizes, and the keyboard backlighting does not work under the latest kernels. Sigh. Still, nothing that doesn't work is a deal breaker, and I cannot find a Dell that has the speed, along with the DP-enabled USB port and the Ethernet port and the GPU, for anything close to what I paid for this.


----------



## ajoeiam

awake said:


> Hmm - I have run on Ubuntu for many years, and I don't recall ever being forced to do any upgrades. Not sure what would account for that difference ... ?


You're not forced to - - - - they just happen. 

I get to choose when I update my system. 
Ubuntu when I was using their stuff - - - they scheduled that - - - and one time there was a right nice cock up. 
No option to control that 'feature' either. 

Do you do system updates?


----------



## ShopShoe

Thank You  trivn, stanstocker, ajoeiam, awake, and richard hed. You have me thinking through this a little more clearly now.

A little more background on me. 

I'm a "not all my eggs in one basket" type, so I like different options. I also like the idea that I am in charge, not bound by some monolith's idea of how I should do things. 

I thought Dell had stopped loading anything but Windows a few years ago, although other vendors like the one I have been watching will start with a Dell machine.

My experience with database for home use was Filemaker-Pro for many years, although I learned with the long-gone REFLEX and 4-D. I also worked with data supplied to me through Access and Foxpro, but didn't work in those programs myself. Primary use is tracking things like my home and shop inventory and My parents' lifetime collection of artifacts and keepsakes from decades of world traveling. (Inquiring Insurance Agents would like to know....) Filemaker allowed photos, so worked well for those uses.

I was in the education-support world for many years and used Inspiration for flow-charting. It was originally designed for kids but worked very well for visually thinking through concepts. It's not the same anymore but I sure liked the simplicity. I had Visio on a Windows box, but was not impressed. 

I take the advice to get another Mac as well, and perhaps that really is the option. I may not have a lot of money, but I sure have time.

Thanks Again,

--ShopShoe


----------



## willray

Richard Hed said:


> "Image" took me a long time to undertand also. It means the "whole operating system" installed at once, basically, as opposed to "installing" it.



Sadly, these days, "image" means exactly whatever the dolt writing "image" meant.

Historically, "image" meant a bit-for-bit copy (a "picture") of some variety of (typically) drive-like media:  a CD, a DVD, a hard-drive.   One made an "image" of a drive/CD/etc, "burned" (think "projected") it onto another drive/CD/etc, and got a duplicate copy of the original.  That media could have contained a "whole operating system", a game, the files necessary to play a movie in a DVD player, literally anything that could have existed on some physical device from which data could be read.

Notably, an "image" was a copy of the _media_, not of the files.  The bits and bytes on the media can be interpreted as files by an operating system, but the media itself knows nothing about how it's being used. Much like an old-school vinyl "album" doesn't know that there are different songs on it - it's all squiggles to the vinyl - the media doesn't know about files, it just knows about bits.  The point of the "image" was to copy everything about the media and enable that to be reproduced.

As removable optical media has become less prevalent the usage has drifted.  For many "images" these days, there was never an original device from which they were copied, instead they are created denovo.  Conceptually they could be written to a CD/DVD/hard-drive, if one wanted to create a duplicate of the phantom device that never existed.   However, software now exists to make the image look to your computer as though the image itself _is_ a physical CD/DVD/hard-drive.  So rather than "burning" the image onto a physical CD/DVD/etc and then mounting that CD/DVD/etc, one simply "mounts" the image itself and the computer thinks you've burned it to CD and mounted the CD.

Steamchick, you're getting into the weeds again.  Pick a voice, let them help you...

Will


----------



## stanstocker

Greetings ShopShoe,

I haven't done any collection data apps since back in the days of dBaseIII+ and video cassettes / records.  I am surprised to find very few apps for ANY platform, particularly any open source apps.  Inventory management stuff is all over the place, but it seems aimed at retailers or manufacturers.  About the best starting point to have a peek I could find is:



			https://alternativeto.net/software/home-inventory/
		


I got there doing a search on open source home inventory.

Maybe something will seems workable there.  Tellico is an open source linux only app for collectors that is claimed to support custom collections as well as the predefined movies / books/ coins etc.  There are quite a few specific paid apps out there, some have the smell of constant upsell efforts, others might be great.  It's just not an area where I know diddly.

There is a home inventory table included in LibreOffice Base.  I checked it out by creating a new database when Base started, then selecting table wizard.  Under personal rather than business included tables I found home inventory.  It might give you a good starting point, but it did not appear to include images as provided.  At least LibreOffice is available on your existing hardware so you can play around and see if it fits 

Best of luck however you proceed!
Stan


----------



## awake

ajoeiam said:


> You're not forced to - - - - they just happen.
> 
> I get to choose when I update my system.
> Ubuntu when I was using their stuff - - - they scheduled that - - - and one time there was a right nice cock up.
> No option to control that 'feature' either.
> 
> Do you do system updates?



Yes, I do system updates ... but no updates "just happen" on my system. I am alerted if there is an update available, but my choice whether to accept it or not. Maybe it's a matter of a different setting somewhere?


----------



## Niterate

Probably best frame that 'Updates' topic as .. updates to your running OS, and 'Upgrade' to that newer OS Version. 

Updates are awesome, stay safe .. do that regularly. Upgrade ... mmm, as to "do you like the new one?", in Linux land you can usually get a 'Runs of a DVD' or 'Live' version .. boot off the CD and see if you like it.. Try several of them, then you can make an informed choice to Upgrade OS or platform... ymmv as always.. typically "Desktop" distro's do a live cd or dvd. You can take the new thing for a test drive ... mmmm 

Enterprisey IBM Redhat like things .. not so much but limiting as a Desktop Proper, maybe SLED fare's better.. unsure.  But Fedora will always short cycle stuff and you'll find you need to move to the next version in 13 months or something silly like that.. I do Ubuntu LTS for desktop or Debian Stable so it's arround longer, now that CentOS has been pooched by IBM Redhat.

However it's unheard of in my world at least, that a linux distro, any distro, 'Forces' an upgrade or update. Linux distro's tend to be about choice, specifically User choice. Thankfully lack of a TPM in my box means my Win 10 Pro, will never try and update to 11.. Noice for me 

Being such, I can offer that I'm a first time Mac buyer of the new Arm powered M1 .. now 2 months in, whilst I can see the hardware is awesome .. the UI/system is stageringly unhelpful...  and in the smallest of ways that just break me.  I use linux, windows, regulary, even BSD on occasions.. but gawd, for me Mac really is that bad, I'm struggling to see what other people see in it, granted I'm a newcomer to OSX gui way of doing things. Think I'm now waiting for a M1 native linux to justify my $1300 aud investigation spend at this rate, Maybe, just maybe, Ashahi will get up. 

Sorry for re-stating of any obvious.. just a working Linux Sysadmin's opinion to add to the mix .  Better yet, cluster some Raspberry Pi's .. now that IS fun   (chip shortage permitting .. that is)


----------



## ajoeiam

awake said:


> Yes, I do system updates ... but no updates "just happen" on my system. I am alerted if there is an update available, but my choice whether to accept it or not. Maybe it's a matter of a different setting somewhere?



TL;DR
This is really fascinating.
I found this particular issue when I was trying out LXD.
So - - to use LXD (a container system) you need to install snapd.
Snapd is where the forced updates were happening.
You could schedule it for once a month but it had to happen.
There was a thread on the forum with some over 500 messages as of some time in early 2020 with various devs asking about how to change and and and.
(I can no longer find this thread on the forum and am not going to spend time to do so about 10 minutes this morning is enough. The guy that started the thread is one of the senior devs for FRR if you know your opensource software.)
The brass was adamant - - - - this is permanent - - - suck it up buttercup etc.
Some of the dev responses were actually quite rude with basically the attitude of ' we know what's best for you '.
What made it even more interesting - - - I had started this on my server (since added a testing system for that too!) was that I just couldn't get rid of the stuff.
I spent quite a few hours trying various things got a cheat sheet from the senior developer and still no joy.
The only way I could actually remove snapd and all of the flotsam that remained after removing lxd and snapd was to reinstall my system.

Now you're going - - - well it couldn't have been that bad.

Well - - - I had done what was initially suggested (this was early LXD 2 days) to stop the upgrades - - - use your firewall to not allow connection to the outside. The real frustrating part then showed up. The software wasn't allowed to update - - - so it forced a system shutdown. It took the third time this happened, the second started me investigating, for me to try and find all the possible things that could be causing my server to shut down. 

So maybe ubuntu 'general' doesn't do this. but ubuntu 'canonical' did do this.

So my solution was simple - - - - no more ubuntu - - - EVER!!!!!!!!!!

If you're going to insist on total handholding - - - then there are options NOT connected to ubuntu.

I spent a lot of time on this problem and found some tidbits that pointed to some reasoning for 'canonical's ' thinking.
This all started just after there were a mountain of rumors that 'Shuttleworth' was thinking of floating an IPO partly to capitalize his net worth. He was wanting to increase his liquidity and enter into the big boys league - - - you know - - - where you're a billionaire software entrepreneur.

As you can see - - - given my experiences I am quite adamant that ubuntu is NOT benign and also like M$ - -quite not to be trusted.

I will not continue to post on this topic inside this thread as I believe my position is clear and the whys have been fully explained (this is not just a knee jerk reaction!!!) Hopefully I am allowed to continue to interact with other aspects raised in this same thread.
Thanks for listening!


----------



## ajoeiam

Niterate said:


> snip
> 
> Sorry for re-stating of any obvious.. just a working Linux Sysadmin's opinion to add to the mix .  Better yet, cluster some Raspberry Pi's .. now that IS fun   (chip shortage permitting .. that is)



I never wanted to get into programming - - grin - - I started my computing on a mac plus. 
IMO still the best tool ever for multilingual writing. 

I've been thinking of using RPis for servers - - - sort of intermediate servers - - - where data is collected close to the generation point and then block forwarded to the main server for residence. Likely the analysis and all those other joys happening on my main box. 

Also thinking of adding a RPi3 to access voip stuff - - - am quite tired of the telco ripoff!!

Then am finding all these gizmos I NEED to make - - - argh - - - and there is programming involved - - - lots more arghhhhh! 

My system trail goes like this: 

1. mac plus 
2. that ended at a mac IIci
3. that died and it was MS 98SE 
4. really didn't appreciate a virus I landed up with so then moved to Red Hat (5 or 6.2 - - - that is some over 20 years ago - - LOL)
5. Fedora and Fedora Core was the next variant 
6. got frustrated with the every 6 months upgrade and then moved to Debian
7. my server testing machine is on Devuan and when I need to upgrade my main box (can't afford to right now) the replacement is also going to Devuan. 
    servers to stable and main bax to testing 

I tend to try pile of software and so have evolved to having a testing system for both of the main and the server so that if adding x bit of software causes issues - - - well I can continue to function. Started that when I took 3 weeks to get my system back running the way I wanted the last time I tried to work with my graphics subsystem. 
(Presently running 4 - 1920 x 1080s and 1 - 4k - - - the 4k is giving me all kinds of grief so at present its not connected but it sure is useful when I do try it. )


----------



## awake

Aha! Snaps - yes, I do not like snaps. So far I've been able to avoid them in my Ubuntu setup. Firefox comes pre-installed as a snap, but I promptly un-install it and install it as a .deb. Much better! I agree that if Canonical pushes snaps to the point that they are unavoidable, I will look for other options. Devuan, you say ... ?


----------



## Niterate

Ta for the heads up ..



ajoeiam said:


> I found this particular issue when I was trying out LXD.
> So - - to use LXD (a container system) you need to install snapd.
> Snapd is where the forced updates were happening.



Ah .. that would be why, I remove/disable snapd, I don't like it or the 'store'.. want straight apt repo transactions, thanks very much.  Hmm.. if Ubuntu does _that_, LXD might be a manual installation from source if needed and possible, or change tactics, and move OS base on the pi's . . . more ansilble, and learning, for me it seems


----------



## Niterate

Dare I say it @awake? ... 'snap!'  *chortle*


----------



## ajoeiam

awake said:


> Aha! Snaps - yes, I do not like snaps. So far I've been able to avoid them in my Ubuntu setup. Firefox comes pre-installed as a snap, but I promptly un-install it and install it as a .deb. Much better! I agree that if Canonical pushes snaps to the point that they are unavoidable, I will look for other options. Devuan, you say ... ?


Devuan is a debian fork. 
Baldly - - - debian moved to using only systemd as a system init (I think that's what its called - - - this is NOT my primary metier!!!!!) and a group of devs were disgruntled enough with that idea that debian was forked to allow the use of other system inits. 
One major difference I'm finding - - - when I ask a question in the forum - - - at devuan - - - I most often get an answer - - - at debian - - - I've never gotten an answer. 

So for me - - - Devuan from here on out.


----------



## ajoeiam

Niterate said:


> Ta for the heads up ..
> 
> 
> 
> Ah .. that would be why, I remove/disable snapd, I don't like it or the 'store'.. want straight apt repo transactions, thanks very much.  Hmm.. if Ubuntu does _that_, LXD might be a manual installation from source if needed and possible, or change tactics, and move OS base on the pi's . . . more ansilble, and learning, for me it seems


Have heard of 'ansible' - - - what is it?


----------



## stanstocker

I have had good results from flatpacks, but like other do not like the snap process.  Some folks tend to consider them interchangeable, but snap is a canonical only entity, only available via their "app store", for Ubuntu only.  Yes, you can install snap support on other distributions, but vendor lock in is not consistent with the philosophy of open source folks.  Flatpacks can be created and distributed by anyone.  The nice thing about flatpacks or snap packages is the entire run time system is contained within the package.  No slight differences in libraries from the one on your system vs the build version, no unresolved dependencies, and limited access at any system level.  Nice from a security point of view, the entire thing runs in user space in it's own little world.

The downside is slower application start up as the flatpack creates the runtime sandbox as well as launching the app.  With an SSD and a reasonable amount of ram the lag isn't horrible, but it is still slower than a normally installed app.  Cura 4.8 flatpack takes between 4 and 5 seconds to launch on a machine with a ryzen 5 2600X, 16G ram, an nvmem.2 drive, and a gtx1050ti gpu running 4K.  In comparison, the conventionally installed larger package Blender launches in under 2 seconds on the same machine.  KDenLive video editor takes a bit over 2 seconds to launch from a flatpack.  Seems OK to me, considering doing a model from 40 or 50 images using photogrammetry can run all 6/12 cores at 100 percent while cranking every available CUDA core on the GPU for hours at a time the app launch time is quite insignificant 

Wow this thread has wandered from the original Q4OS topic, wonder if it should turn into a generic linux topic instead?

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## stanstocker

ajoeiam said:


> Have heard of 'ansible' - - - what is it?



WooHoo!  And we wander the thread into ever stranger places,  Who would have thought my favorite linux thread for a long time would be among my fellow metal munchers! 

Ansible is 1) a superb methodology for provisioning and managing distributed systems including IOT stuff or 2) the most recent overwrought complexificated clusterized (SICx2) buzz word laden mess unleashed on the IT world.  Dealers choice, here's a good starting point:









						Ansible is Simple IT Automation
					

Ansible is the simplest way to automate apps and IT infrastructure. Application Deployment + Configuration Management + Continuous Delivery.




					www.ansible.com
				




I could swear the main page looks and reads just like the shiny "fact sheets" handed out at FOSE and other trade shows for the IT world back in the 1990's.  Promises the same stuff too.  Only difference is replacing the stock photo "two white guys and one black guy, all looking at a screen while wearing suits" with a stock photo "middle age Asian woman with a sticker covered laptop and a tattoo in a comfy chair"...

I'll skip further cynical commentary and simply say Cheers!
Stan


----------



## Niterate

Ansible is an automation tool used to configure and manage hosts (targets), mostly *nix hosts but, clients can be, Windows, Apple, BSD's, SunOS/Solaris, Cisco kit, FIrewalls, appliances, cloud nodes, typically if you can ssh to the thing, the thing (target) will likely have an ansible 'Module' to manage it's local commands, (or one being developed).. else you can just define the raw command in your config, and via the magic of shell and SSH, it will just happen.

the focus thre is 'System Agnostic' as far as possible..

Another way to think of it is like a high performance 'Terminal multiplexer' but with many more bells and whistles, like defined grouping, filtering and roles.   For me it's one touch system administration ..  define it once (on the master), type it once, but it happnes on 30 other boxen (targets), if you defined/grouped it that way.  Think the Windows equivlelant is SCOM, if you'd like a comparitor, but far more flexible as ansible can mange windoze too.

Log into 37 boxen to run an Oracle audit script?? not anymore, define once, test it, if good, run it everywhere or by cron job at 3 in the morning.. what ever floats 'yer boat.


----------



## Niterate

yup ..


stanstocker said:


> I could swear the main page looks and reads just like the shiny "fact sheets" handed out at FOSE and other trade shows for the IT world back in the 1990's



IBM Red Hat want you to buy "Ansible Tower" for megabucks.. it's  their webgui for Red Hat fleet automation (adjunct to Satellite). 

After 'Sponsoring' Ansbile (and to be fair throwing some $ at Ansible devlopment) which _IS_ FOSS, they would.   You do not have to buy it, if you need a GUI for ansible you could use AWX or Semaphore ... or like me at home just use the plain old terminal and cron jobs without the fancy complex resource heavy corporate GUI. 

One could reflect RH was uncomfortable, and did that because SuSE Enterprise picked up and 'Sponsored'  Spacewalk, the upstream project for Redhat's own Satellite product, and married that to Salt Stack autmation suite, an equivelant to 'Ansible' , (.. or Puppet, or Chef) .. just gotta be different. 

It's all a bit murky, but I can happily speak to the efficacy of raw foss Ansible, and it's pretty good for my needs, which is admittedly more than the average users at times. 

You can skip all the glossy Corproate hyperbole and look at the foss doco if you're keen.. it's here:  User Guide — Ansible Documentation


----------



## Niterate

Actually on reflection, the best analogy for Ansible, on this particular forum is that it is "the CNC" of OS system management ..  write it once, make a thousand.


----------



## ajoeiam

Only open the link - - - - first issue - - - - its Red Hat dominated - - - - as Red Hat is part of IBM's galaxy and both want to own their users - - - - oh well - - - I will look further but its already got a huge black mark on it!

Snaps are popular with the dev crowd because they only have to optimise for loading one way - - - into a snap.
Supposedly flatpak and appimage do the same thing but know  appimage files are HUGE! (FreeCAD uses this option.)
Am finding these new options that promise the earth frustrating as they seem to keep finding new ways to bork up things at the same time.

Do we need a more generic thread - - - or should we break out the various different aspects of this thread into their own?
Hmmmmmm - - - do we ask the list owner for a dedicated 'linux' playpen? (LOL)


----------



## awake

You mentioned FreeCAD as an appimage - it is available that way, but also as a traditional .deb. (Maybe also as rpm??) As noted above, the appimage gives you a single consistent reference point. But in the case of FreeCAD, the appimage uses a style of icon that is unfamiliar to me - not sure if it is the Windows style of icon, or something else.

And the above illustrates some of the benefit and some of the curse of Linux and open source software - there is a tendency to make it possible to "have it your way," so we don't like it if someone locks it in so that it can only be had one way!


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Only open the link - - - - first issue - - - - its Red Hat dominated - - - - as Red Hat is part of IBM's galaxy and both want to own their users - - - - oh well - - - I will look further but its already got a huge black mark on it!
> 
> Snaps are popular with the dev crowd because they only have to optimise for loading one way - - - into a snap.
> Supposedly flatpak and appimage do the same thing but know  appimage files are HUGE! (FreeCAD uses this option.)
> Am finding these new options that promise the earth frustrating as they seem to keep finding new ways to bork up things at the same time.
> 
> Do we need a more generic thread - - - or should we break out the various different aspects of this thread into their own?
> Hmmmmmm - - - do we ask the list owner for a dedicated 'linux' playpen? (LOL)


No, we doesn't need a more generic thread.  But what is a "snap"?  A lot of terms are unfamiliar to me and so to a lot of others.  

As long as no-one is whining about what someone is saying on this thread, then no need for "more general"


----------



## awake

Richard, a "snap" is more-or-less Ubuntu's version of an appimage or flatpack - a way of packaging the program together with all of its libraries. Ubuntu keeps making noises that it will transition all of its software to snaps. I understand the potential benefits (any package should "just run" without worrying about library interactions), but I don't like the speed and memory penalty ... and I haven't seen the need - .deb files and shared libraries have worked just fine for me. And if one goes this route, I'd rather they used a mechanism shared across many distros, rather than unique to just one.

I will note that Ubuntu / Canonical (the latter being the company that manages the Ubuntu distro) has made efforts to roll their own subsystem before ... and has eventually withdrawn it when there was not widespread adoption. I'm hoping that will be the fate of snaps. If not ... as I said, I guess it will be time to start looking at other distros!


----------



## Richard Hed

awake said:


> Richard, a "snap" is more-or-less Ubuntu's version of an appimage or flatpack - a way of packaging the program together with all of its libraries. Ubuntu keeps making noises that it will transition all of its software to snaps. I understand the potential benefits (any package should "just run" without worrying about library interactions), but I don't like the speed and memory penalty ... and I haven't seen the need - .deb files and shared libraries have worked just fine for me. And if one goes this route, I'd rather they used a mechanism shared across many distros, rather than unique to just one.
> 
> I will note that Ubuntu / Canonical (the latter being the company that manages the Ubuntu distro) has made efforts to roll their own subsystem before ... and has eventually withdrawn it when there was not widespread adoption. I'm hoping that will be the fate of snaps. If not ... as I said, I guess it will be time to start looking at other distros!


Thanx for that.  So it is like an RPM that has everything pre-pakaged in one pot.  I have SUSE discs from 9.2, 4 discs, in which when installing, one can choose which programs one wants and reject the rest or install them later or what ever one wants.  But what you are saying is that there is no choice, you get what is in the pot and that is all and you BETTER LIKE it or else we'll call the thot, religious, and child pornography police on you?


----------



## awake

Not exactly. Each snap represents just one program ... but any given program that you install, unless it is extremely simple, will call on multiple libraries. For example, a large number of programs that are multi-platform (running on Linux, Windows, Mac) will make use of the Qt framework, or less commonly, the wxWidget framework. Normally these libraries are installed as shared libraries, tucked away in your /usr/lib or similar folder. When you pick an rpm package, or a .deb package, it checks to see what libraries are needed, which of them are already installed, and then fetches any that need to be installed.

A snap packages up ALL of the libraries the program needs, together with the program. This means that program A, which uses Qt, has the full set of Qt libraries included in its snap; meanwhile, program B, which also uses Qt, ALSO has the full set of Qt libraries included in its snap. When you run each program, it does not share the libraries; it uses its own copy - thus, an increase in storage and RAM usage.

The good part of this is that program A might use an older version of Qt than program B. Typically, when you install these programs via rpm or .deb or such, the package manager (rpm, apt) checks to see which specific version you need, and loads that version of the libraries. Typically, it is no problem to have both Qt 4.8 and Qt 5.1 libraries installed; the naming system will keep them straight. Typically ... but sometimes there can be a collision between library versions, and that is the problem that snaps or appimages or flatpacks solve - no missing libraries, and no wrong versions of libraries, because you carry the full library with you.


----------



## willray

Richard Hed said:


> ...So it is like an RPM that has everything pre-pakaged in one pot....But what you are saying is that there is no choice, you get what is in the pot and that is all and you BETTER LIKE it or else we'll call the thot, religious, and child pornography police on you?



No, what he's saying is that the software houses (Canonical in the case of snaps and snapcraft) are trying to provide a framework in which "apps" on Linux can be treated like apps on your phone - just pick flappy-birds from the store and it works.  No futzing with dependencies, versions, etc.  If it installs, it works.

For many computer users, _this_is_great_.  The vast majority of people who want a desktop computer, don't want to have to worry about which version(s) of glibc, or god help them, wxpython that they have installed.  They just want the damned thing to work, just like they want their phone or toaster oven to work.

However, so long as Linux is Linux, and not just being used as some hidden microkernel, you are _never_ going to be _forced_ to use anyone's prepackaged pot.  You don't like snaps?  Fine, don't use them.  Even if Ubuntu goes to only distributing software via snaps, who cares?   Download and build the sources and dependencies yourself.  There is no 'thot' police forcing you to do anything.  Snaps/etc are provided as a valuable service for the people who want it.

You want choice?  It's there, and it's often better than using RPMs or any other package manager - the number of times I've seen a package manager download and install, for example, the entire freakin X11 distribution just to get access to one single typedef in X.h is insane.

Is it inconvenient?  I guess that depends on your definition of inconvenient.  For some people, building stuff from source is inconvenient.  For others, the fact that their favorite codec was left out of the ffmpeg build in the snap is inconvenient.  You want the convenience of their pot, you get whatever goodies and secret sauce they decided to cook in it.  You want the convenience of absolute control, get thee hence to an sh prompt and learn how to use make.


----------



## Richard Hed

willray said:


> No, what he's saying is that the software houses (Canonical in the case of snaps and snapcraft) are trying to provide a framework in which "apps" on Linux can be treated like apps on your phone - just pick flappy-birds from the store and it works.  No futzing with dependencies, versions, etc.  If it installs, it works.
> 
> For many computer users, _this_is_great_.  The vast majority of people who want a desktop computer, don't want to have to worry about which version(s) of glibc, or god help them, wxpython that they have installed.  They just want the damned thing to work, just like they want their phone or toaster oven to work.
> 
> However, so long as Linux is Linux, and not just being used as some hidden microkernel, you are _never_ going to be _forced_ to use anyone's prepackaged pot.  You don't like snaps?  Fine, don't use them.  Even if Ubuntu goes to only distributing software via snaps, who cares?   Download and build the sources and dependencies yourself.  There is no 'thot' police forcing you to do anything.  Snaps/etc are provided as a valuable service for the people who want it.
> 
> You want choice?  It's there, and it's often better than using RPMs or any other package manager - the number of times I've seen a package manager download and install, for example, the entire freakin X11 distribution just to get access to one single typedef in X.h is insane.
> 
> Is it inconvenient?  I guess that depends on your definition of inconvenient.  For some people, building stuff from source is inconvenient.  For others, the fact that their favorite codec was left out of the ffmpeg build in the snap is inconvenient.  You want the convenience of their pot, you get whatever goodies and secret sauce they decided to cook in it.  You want the convenience of absolute control, get thee hence to an sh prompt and learn how to use make.


 Ah, thank yew for that.  But you didn't say the religious and porn police won't be knocking on the door.


----------



## awake

A good point. I am somewhere in the middle - I appreciate the convenience of the apt package manager, and am happy to use it most of the time. But there are situations where I go ahead and compile from source, either to get an up-to-date version or to work around some incompatibility or so on. The latter can be a bit daunting the first time or six - figuring out all the dependencies that you need to have on hand - but with a bit of practice, it can become second nature.

I seem to recall at least one Linux distro that approaches _all_ software installation as compile-from-source ...


----------



## ajoeiam

awake said:


> A good point. I am somewhere in the middle - I appreciate the convenience of the apt package manager, and am happy to use it most of the time. But there are situations where I go ahead and compile from source, either to get an up-to-date version or to work around some incompatibility or so on. The latter can be a bit daunting the first time or six - figuring out all the dependencies that you need to have on hand - but with a bit of practice, it can become second nature.
> 
> I seem to recall at least one Linux distro that approaches _all_ software installation as compile-from-source ...


Hmmmmmmmmm  - - - IIRC its gentoo where everything is compiled - - - making a tight clean system AIUI. 

My issue with 'snaps' was that using them locked me into constant forced upgrades - - - you know when your machine is unusable for a while because someone else wants to futz with their shite - - - that was the straw that broke the camel's back here! 

I'm fairly much with Mr Awake - - - I don't mind compiling except I have run into programs where I was on the fifth level of dependencies when I threw in the towel. (I have been accused of running far too many programs!!!!!!!!!!!!)


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> No, we doesn't need a more generic thread.  But what is a "snap"?  A lot of terms are unfamiliar to me and so to a lot of others.
> 
> As long as no-one is whining about what someone is saying on this thread, then no need for "more general"


The computer universe is more than peppered with unusual terms, many preempted from other fields, and acronyms - - - - - mountains of them. 

Now if only they could be convinced to write out the acronym once - - - life would be good - - - - but everyone is assumed to know ALL of the terms and acronyms - - - I don't (plaintive wail!!)


----------



## stanstocker

Acronyms can be fun!  Westinghouse Defense (RIP) had a review system created by the pointy haired bosses called Performance Management System.  Yup, PMS.  They then doubled down by thinking that there was a single methodology for sorting out all production problems.  Failure Analysis Review Team.  Big hoot in the days of Quality Circle Jerks and Totaled Quality Management.   You could be blamed by FART, marked down in PMS for saying quality is built in, not smeared on by management after the fact, sentenced to be in a Quality Circle Jerk for re-education, then see quality totaled.  Can't beat that hot mess except for page one in the workmanship standards handbook that read "This page intentionally left blank".  Wonder how they ended up with massive layoffs and were acquired by a less clueless outfit?  The 80's were the decade of trendy failure most certainly.  Won't even go too far into the weird side of the world, where some poor sap was the Deputy Intelligence Logistics Duty Officer...

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## SmithDoor

The biggest advantage is not to many nuts are using Linux. 
Technology on any computer any can get a virus as soon start down loading. Even a photo can have a virus.
But nuts do not how do this part and the nut keep to simpler ways. 

The way we stop virus is start the modem. All the smart home devices need to have the modem less safe to work. 
My self I do not have any smart devices on my internet for that reason. 

Next is the operating system can stop virus the latest is safer. 

The last line of defense in a good virus software. 

Remember the nuts are not looking for someone looking at engines and machine tools there just no money there. 
The looking for someone spend money on gaming using credit cards. 
The nuts not to interest in a Walmart shoppers just no real money. 

Dave 



Richard Hed said:


> My understanding is tht Linux is almost impossible to get a virus anyway.  Is that still true?


----------



## aarggh

I think Gentoo as painful as it was years back, to me made more sense when PC resources were expensive and underpowered, thus tailoring the OS to get the most grunt and least package overhead, now the crappiest machine available could easily run any distro for multi tenanted websites, databases, voice, etc without any trouble. I see a lot of vendors using Gentoo style cut-down systems, some work beautifully, some are a nightmare when there's an issue requiring package updates because of the particular uniqueness of the build.

There's a lot to be said for the genericness and reliability of distros like Centos, Ubunut, etc, making it far easier for non technical people to install and manage them.

And once you get used to working with Linux, it's an amazingly powerful system, with incredibly useful commands available.


----------



## ajoeiam

SmithDoor said:


> The biggest advantage is not to many nuts are using Linux.
> Technology on any computer any can get a virus as soon start down loading. Even a photo can have a virus.
> But nuts do not how do this part and the nut keep to simpler ways.
> 
> The way we stop virus is start the modem. All the smart home devices need to have the modem less safe to work.
> My self I do not have any smart devices on my internet for that reason.
> 
> Next is the operating system can stop virus the latest is safer.
> 
> The last line of defense in a good virus software.
> 
> Remember the nuts are not looking for someone looking at engines and machine tools there just no money there.
> The looking for someone spend money on gaming using credit cards.
> The nuts not to interest in a Walmart shoppers just no real money.
> 
> Dave



I was told that an unprotected windows machine was compromised in under 60 seconds after being opened on the web. 
Knew these guys and they did it as an experiment. 
I was already running linux at the time really didn't provide any impetus to change. 
As I tend to say when pushed - - - "I decline to accept M$'s security opportunities."

Am finding it interesting how M$ is now embracing linux - - - still have a hard time trusting them though!!!


----------



## awake

There are some viruses targeting Linux these days. As I understand it, they are particularly focused on Linux servers (ransomware), but of course can be "caught" by anyone who does not practice safe computing.


----------



## SmithDoor

That true if you very unlucky
But today it may take a long time. 
The best to keep safe is backup your data on disks and on the cloud. And use virus protection programs too.

If get a virus then reformat and use your backup to restore your computer 🖥.  But that can happen if your hard drive dies too. 

Dave 



ajoeiam said:


> I was told that an unprotected windows machine was compromised in under 60 seconds after being opened on the web.
> Knew these guys and they did it as an experiment.
> I was already running linux at the time really didn't provide any impetus to change.
> As I tend to say when pushed - - - "I decline to accept M$'s security opportunities."
> 
> Am finding it interesting how M$ is now embracing linux - - - still have a hard time trusting them though!!!


----------



## Steamchick

stanstocker said:


> Acronyms can be fun!  Westinghouse Defense (RIP) had a review system created by the pointy haired bosses called Performance Management System.  Yup, PMS.  They then doubled down by thinking that there was a single methodology for sorting out all production problems.  Failure Analysis Review Team.  Big hoot in the days of Quality Circle Jerks and Totaled Quality Management.   You could be blamed by FART, marked down in PMS for saying quality is built in, not smeared on by management after the fact, sentenced to be in a Quality Circle Jerk for re-education, then see quality totaled.  Can't beat that hot mess except for page one in the workmanship standards handbook that read "This page intentionally left blank".  Wonder how they ended up with massive layoffs and were acquired by a less clueless outfit?  The 80's were the decade of trendy failure most certainly.  Won't even go too far into the weird side of the world, where some poor sap was the Deputy Intelligence Logistics Duty Officer...
> 
> Cheers,
> Stan


I heard of someone who was described as the Senior Health Information Trainer....
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Hi all,
After many attempts - following different instructions etc. from web searches, I finally managed to get some sort of Linux installed on my old Dell 32-bit PC.  IT WORKS. 
But I still have to learn a few things, while I am in "trial mode"... and still have Windows on the PC.  some "stupid" questions - because I don't know any better, but I am sure you'll help.

How do I find somewhere in settings (or whatever) to tell Linux how to see my box so it can connect to the internet?
How do I tell Linux how to "see" my existing folders of files that are on Windows? - I don't have room on the drive to copy all the Windows "My Documents" and paste them into "linux documents" etc.
Do I need to plug-in my Back-up Terabyte hard drive to do Linux back-ups: when I eventually have just Linux installed? - I am pretty sure I shall have to delete Windows XP so there is room for Linux. Linux is nearly 8 Gb, and I have less than that spare with Windows on the drive.
What should I do with the Windows folders? If I just delete them, there is no return. But if I simply cut and paste onto another removable drive, will they work if I re-fit them onto the PC later? - I guess not, as the Windows operating system won't be there to open in a way that I can rstore Windows anyway...?
That's all the stupid questions - for now. I am sure I'll bother you again.
Thanks Guys n Gals: (However you like to be known in this modern world?)
K2


----------



## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Hi all,
> After many attempts - following different instructions etc. from web searches, I finally managed to get some sort of Linux installed on my old Dell 32-bit PC.  IT WORKS.
> But I still have to learn a few things, while I am in "trial mode"... and still have Windows on the PC.  some "stupid" questions - because I don't know any better, but I am sure you'll help.
> 
> How do I find somewhere in settings (or whatever) to tell Linux how to see my box so it can connect to the internet?
> How do I tell Linux how to "see" my existing folders of files that are on Windows? - I don't have room on the drive to copy all the Windows "My Documents" and paste them into "linux documents" etc.
> Do I need to plug-in my Back-up Terabyte hard drive to do Linux back-ups: when I eventually have just Linux installed? - I am pretty sure I shall have to delete Windows XP so there is room for Linux. Linux is nearly 8 Gb, and I have less than that spare with Windows on the drive.
> What should I do with the Windows folders? If I just delete them, there is no return. But if I simply cut and paste onto another removable drive, will they work if I re-fit them onto the PC later? - I guess not, as the Windows operating system won't be there to open in a way that I can rstore Windows anyway...?
> That's all the stupid questions - for now. I am sure I'll bother you again.
> Thanks Guys n Gals: (However you like to be known in this modern world?)
> K2



Well - - - no bloody expert here but I'll throw in my $0.005 worth (lots of inflation lately!!!! (and I'm not worth that much!!!)). 

1. Dunno why you would install a 32bit version of anything today. 
    My first system I ran linux on, built in 1999, well I ran 64 bit linux on that one. You need 64 bit before you can use hard drives bigger than 2 GB. 
2. Normally in your install, you haven't mentioned which variant and which version of such you used, your internet access is developed. 
    So - - please - - - what did you install?
3. I haven't run a dual boot system in a very long time but maybe, see #2 - - - more info is needed, I think its possible to mount a M$ partition. 
    Not going looking for info until #2 is completed.
4. There is no info on the system. If using 8GB of space is scaring you then maybe you just don't have enough HDD space to do much useful. 
    Please post your system data. 
5. If you copy files from a M$ folder onto a storage drive and then later copy them back - - - they should work! I would check for corruption by 
    opening the files in question from the storage disk before you assume you have a successful transfer. 

Please - - - - one of the first things hammered at one when you ask for assistance is - - - you need to provide info on your project - - - first. 
Its ever so much easier to provide help if one has some idea what is being talked about.


----------



## Steamchick

Sorry AJ: I'll have to finish removing loads of data files from the "win" set-up before I can get back to the Linux and see what the software is called. When I tried to install the Linux software I had "clicked" on the Linux website (a bit of a guess as to what I was selecting) LINUX told me that it wasn't suitable (out-of-date) and said it would install ##@::;'# instead. Which worked! And the name was something conjured up by someone who only spoke "computer", so not a name I could remember. 
But when I switch off, re-set and load up Linux from the USB again I'll be able to get the name of the software. No rush, I'm having a couple of weeks holiday soon and this has taken a year to get this far. So many Interweb sets of instructions didn't do anything for me, this is a vast subject and one that probably takes years to master. But now someone's thread on a discussion site has given me the means (by accident?) of getting Linux up and running... so I have just taken the first step and got a program to run on my old PC.
I am only using 32-bit  as that is what the computer does. I found it had just 2.5Gb "spare on the 40Gb drive, but need >7.7Gb for Linux. Hence I am removing lots of files that were stored on this computer (it is my old "stand-by" computer). My plan is to develop sufficient "expertise" (or ham-fisted groping) of Linux on the old Dell, before my more modern half-decent Dell computer falls over with MS/Windows getting so HUGE! Then when I am comfortable with Linux I shall convert the newer computer and get shot of MS (forever?). - Is that sensible? (You talk of "dual-boot system" - probably not for me?).  Or do I need to shell out hard cash for _another _flippin' PC?
You suggest I am scared of 8Gb... - Not so. I have accumulated nearly 20Gb of data files in 30 years... The 8Gb is just the space needed just to load Linux - without space for stuff to work. Things like "defrag" and other service programs just need 15% of disc space - which is 6Gb on a 40Gb disk.  Linux alone would be <20% of the hard-drive disc space, and I can easily run all the data files from a USB and have another 50% spare. Windows etc. programmes use over 50% of my hard-drive, leaving too little free space for the PC to be useful. Therefore Linux looks like good space saving at first glance. Do tell me if I am doing a stupid thing? - I simply don't know.
But thanks for your time and patience in listening to my "tales".. Your advice is good, even though we don't know the Linux system I have... Some things you say are what I guessed I should do... and it is nice to have your support telling me what I figured out I should be doing.
K2


----------



## RM-MN

1. Linux (any version I have used) can read all Windows files.  Windows (at least until very recently) cannot read Linux files.
2. Every time I have installed Linux it is with a dual boot with Windows.  You do have to be careful and read the instruction so you don't overwrite the Windows partition.
3. Used hard drives are cheap in the US, probably also in the UK.  Check Ebay.  I just bought a 500 GB SATA drive for  11.46 USD delivered to my door, plenty of room for Windows, Linux, and a bunch of other things.  My current computer only has space for one hard drive so the new one isn't installed yet.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi AJ, I just found the "download" from Linux : I tried ubuntu-14.04.6-server-i386. (as directed by the thread I had found).
But, as mentioned above, LINUX decided I needed something that I recall was "18. something"... as I assumed it was from 2018? - The 2014 software being too obsolete for any self-respecting computer hack. (My 1995 PC still works... but is impossible to use, as it is too fast and won't handle ""modern" huge files).
K2


----------



## RM-MN

Steamchick said:


> Hi AJ, I just found the "download" from Linux : I tried ubuntu-14.04.6-server-i386. (as directed by the thread I had found).
> But, as mentioned above, LINUX decided I needed something that I recall was "18. something"... as I assumed it was from 2018? - The 2014 software being too obsolete for any self-respecting computer hack. (My 1995 PC still works... but is impossible to use, as it is too fast and won't handle ""modern" huge files).
> K2


The leading number on a Linux distrubution is simply a build number and has nothing to do with the year it was released.  I use Linux Mint (it has proprietary drivers which Ubuntu does not) and the latest version of that is 20.3.  Unless you plan to use this computer as a server to a large network you probably do not want any version that says "server" in its name.  Any of them will work as a server for a home network.


----------



## awake

RM-MN said:


> The leading number on a Linux distrubution is simply a build number and has nothing to do with the year it was released.  I use Linux Mint (it has proprietary drivers which Ubuntu does not) and the latest version of that is 20.3.  Unless you plan to use this computer as a server to a large network you probably do not want any version that says "server" in its name.  Any of them will work as a server for a home network.


Actually, with Ubuntu, the leading version number DOES represent the year. They usually release in April and in October, so the last two releases were 21.04 and 21.10. They will add a "cutesy" name to this, but IMHO the number is easier to remember and more useful.

An important fact: the April release in even years is a "Long Term Support" release. If you want the most stable possible system, only install this release. (The next one is coming up in a couple of months - 22.04.) This release will continue to update itself with respect to any security issues for something like 8 years. If you want to try new & developing features, then you can update with the intermediate releases, but these are only supported for 12 months or something like that.


----------



## Steamchick

Ta.


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> Sorry AJ: I'll have to finish removing loads of data files from the "win" set-up before I can get back to the Linux and see what the software is called. When I tried to install the Linux software I had "clicked" on the Linux website (a bit of a guess as to what I was selecting) LINUX told me that it wasn't suitable (out-of-date) and said it would install ##@::;'# instead. Which worked! And the name was something conjured up by someone who only spoke "computer", so not a name I could remember.
> But when I switch off, re-set and load up Linux from the USB again I'll be able to get the name of the software. No rush, I'm having a couple of weeks holiday soon and this has taken a year to get this far. So many Interweb sets of instructions didn't do anything for me, this is a vast subject and one that probably takes years to master. But now someone's thread on a discussion site has given me the means (by accident?) of getting Linux up and running... so I have just taken the first step and got a program to run on my old PC.
> I am only using 32-bit  as that is what the computer does. I found it had just 2.5Gb "spare on the 40Gb drive, but need >7.7Gb for Linux. Hence I am removing lots of files that were stored on this computer (it is my old "stand-by" computer). My plan is to develop sufficient "expertise" (or ham-fisted groping) of Linux on the old Dell, before my more modern half-decent Dell computer falls over with MS/Windows getting so HUGE! Then when I am comfortable with Linux I shall convert the newer computer and get shot of MS (forever?). - Is that sensible? (You talk of "dual-boot system" - probably not for me?).  Or do I need to shell out hard cash for _another _flippin' PC?
> You suggest I am scared of 8Gb... - Not so. I have accumulated nearly 20Gb of data files in 30 years... The 8Gb is just the space needed just to load Linux - without space for stuff to work. Things like "defrag" and other service programs just need 15% of disc space - which is 6Gb on a 40Gb disk.  Linux alone would be <20% of the hard-drive disc space, and I can easily run all the data files from a USB and have another 50% spare. Windows etc. programmes use over 50% of my hard-drive, leaving too little free space for the PC to be useful. Therefore Linux looks like good space saving at first glance. Do tell me if I am doing a stupid thing? - I simply don't know.
> But thanks for your time and patience in listening to my "tales".. Your advice is good, even though we don't know the Linux system I have... Some things you say are what I guessed I should do... and it is nice to have your support telling me what I figured out I should be doing.
> K2



Hi Steamchick,

Simply do what I suggested months ago !  Download the Q4OS live 32 bit ISO and burn a CD !  Boot from the CD and simply run Linux directly from the CD.  Nothing to install and all your files will be available to you.  As far as connecting to your router is concerned use the Q4OS control centre and put the details in there for a wired DHCP connection.


----------



## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Sorry AJ: I'll have to finish removing loads of data files from the "win" set-up before I can get back to the Linux and see what the software is called. When I tried to install the Linux software I had "clicked" on the Linux website (a bit of a guess as to what I was selecting) LINUX told me that it wasn't suitable (out-of-date) and said it would install ##@::;'# instead. Which worked! And the name was something conjured up by someone who only spoke "computer", so not a name I could remember.
> But when I switch off, re-set and load up Linux from the USB again I'll be able to get the name of the software. No rush, I'm having a couple of weeks holiday soon and this has taken a year to get this far. So many Interweb sets of instructions didn't do anything for me, this is a vast subject and one that probably takes years to master. But now someone's thread on a discussion site has given me the means (by accident?) of getting Linux up and running... so I have just taken the first step and got a program to run on my old PC.
> I am only using 32-bit  as that is what the computer does. I found it had just 2.5Gb "spare on the 40Gb drive, but need >7.7Gb for Linux. Hence I am removing lots of files that were stored on this computer (it is my old "stand-by" computer). My plan is to develop sufficient "expertise" (or ham-fisted groping) of Linux on the old Dell, before my more modern half-decent Dell computer falls over with MS/Windows getting so HUGE! Then when I am comfortable with Linux I shall convert the newer computer and get shot of MS (forever?). - Is that sensible? (You talk of "dual-boot system" - probably not for me?).  Or do I need to shell out hard cash for _another _flippin' PC?
> You suggest I am scared of 8Gb... - Not so. I have accumulated nearly 20Gb of data files in 30 years... The 8Gb is just the space needed just to load Linux - without space for stuff to work. Things like "defrag" and other service programs just need 15% of disc space - which is 6Gb on a 40Gb disk.  Linux alone would be <20% of the hard-drive disc space, and I can easily run all the data files from a USB and have another 50% spare. Windows etc. programmes use over 50% of my hard-drive, leaving too little free space for the PC to be useful. Therefore Linux looks like good space saving at first glance. Do tell me if I am doing a stupid thing? - I simply don't know.
> But thanks for your time and patience in listening to my "tales".. Your advice is good, even though we don't know the Linux system I have... Some things you say are what I guessed I should do... and it is nice to have your support telling me what I figured out I should be doing.
> K2




You know - - - used computers are quite reasonable!! (You don't even want to know what my main box set me back when I bought it - - - in 2012 - - - - and its running fine - - -b ut then I over spec cooling and will continue to do such!!!)
I bought 2 for use as testing platforms. Something like $400 gets one something that's actually not a bad machine.
What I did was a little different. I just bought another HDD and pulled the existing one that had the win installation.
IIRC (I no longer keep any kind of regular tabs on pricing!!) a 1 TB drive is selling in the around $75 range and that's for a better level of drive than the cheapest available. I had issues with even a not quite the cheapest - - - bought all 'red' level drives lately (meant for raid arrays) and have some quite decent life on those.

You have accumulated 20 GB of files in 30 years - - - - seriously - - - - I 'bout had a mess to clean up on the floor I was laughing so hard. I've been accumulating that or somewhat more every year for quite a while and its not getting any smaller. Some of my present projects are likely going to generate that much data by themselves every year and maybe more - - - - data seems to expand when you're storing you know!!!

There are still parts of a system I bought in 1999 that are in regular use here - - - and it still does an excellent job.
Old hardware chosen carefully - - - - well - - - - it can still do a great job.

I like the idea of running a live system - - - - but if you really want to replace M$ - - - - well just get another cheap machine and I'm sure we can pilot you through your stuff. The nice thing about doing this is that its not that expensive and you do have a fair amount of control on things!!!!!!

Over and out for now


----------



## Steamchick

BaronJ said:


> Hi Steamchick,
> 
> Simply do what I suggested months ago !  Download the Q4OS live 32 bit ISO and burn a CD !  Boot from the CD and simply run Linux directly from the CD.  Nothing to install and all your files will be available to you.  As far as connecting to your router is concerned use the Q4OS control centre and put the details in there for a wired DHCP connection.


Thanks Baron, but after spending a week trying to get Q40S working, I believed it when it didn't work on my computer.
That's why I have been another umpteen weeks carting on with at least 4 other systems before getting something to work. I'm sorry your suggestion didn't work, but it was some unknown incompatability, possibly the human doing it, butif it had worked I would have said a big "Thankyou".
K2.


----------



## Steamchick

ajoeiam said:


> You know - - - used computers are quite reasonable!!
> Something like $400 gets one something that's actually not a bad machine.
> What I did was a little different. I just bought another HDD and pulled the existing one that had the win installation.
> IIRC a 1 TB drive is selling in the around $75 range and that's for a better level of drive than the cheapest available. I had issues with even a not quite the cheapest - - - bought all 'red' level drives lately (meant for raid arrays) and have some quite decent life on those.
> 
> You have accumulated 20 GB of files in 30 years - - - - seriously - - - - I 'bout had a mess to clean up on the floor I was laughing so hard. I've been accumulating that or somewhat more every year for quite a while and its not getting any smaller. Some of my present projects are likely going to generate that much data by themselves every year and maybe more - - - - data seems to expand when you're storing you know!!!
> 
> There are still parts of a system I bought in 1999 that are in regular use here - - - and it still does an excellent job.
> Old hardware chosen carefully - - - - well - - - - it can still do a great job.
> 
> I like the idea of running a live system - - - - but if you really want to replace M$ - - - - well just get another cheap machine and I'm sure we can pilot you through your stuff. The nice thing about doing this is that its not that expensive and you do have a fair amount of control on things!!!!!!
> 
> Over and out for now


Thanks for the wisdom AJ. All my PCs are second hand. The most expensive £40. $400 gets me a flight to the USA, so I have no desire to spend that on a computer.
I'll let you know when I get stuck again,as I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks now.
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

I forgot to mention, when it comes to money, I have some, but hate spending it. 
I recently found out I have roots from Yorkshire in the 1600s.
And another line goes back to Scottish roots!
I have a simple head, if I can do it with pencil, paper, a hacksaw and file I do not need CAD and  a CNC  machining centre. So I keep a chalk and slate for odd calculations and notes while working. You may be surprised at what 50 year old skills can do - pre-computer!
K2


----------



## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Thanks for the wisdom AJ. All my PCs are second hand. The most expensive £40. $400 gets me a flight to the USA, so I have no desire to spend that on a computer.
> I'll let you know when I get stuck again,as I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks now.
> Cheers!
> K2



Hmmmmm - - - - just maybe you might have to 'break the bank' and get yourself something that's a wee bit more capable. 
I do hope that your 'daily driver' is a wee bit more up to date or your system is quite likely quite 'hacked'. 
M$ 98SE was a good system in its day, but for internet security - - - today especially - - - not so much. 

Even if all you're on is here - - - I'm surprised you haven't accumulated more 'data' (downloads) than what you mention.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi AJ, I have a lot more data on my newer PC.... but when windows 10 last did a major update it stole a huge whack of memory, and next time M$ dumps new stuff on me I reckon it will collapse. Meanwhile, I hope to get my older PC running on Linux, so I can learn on that PC while retaining my "newer" PC on Windows until I am happy using Linux.
But my latest effort.
I removed all the data files from the old Dell, by moving onto USB drives, and today reset the boot menu to load the Ubuntu I 38 programme. It has wiped the Windows XP, but will only open the "trial" Ubuntu from the USB... not load the full programme to the hard drive. - It has tried 3 times, then I left it to come and have lunch.
But when on the trail version, it works fine. Like a simple Windows used to be.
But what next?
If/when the Proper Ubuntu loads to the hard-drive, I'll load the data-files from the USBs.... I hope?
K2


----------



## awake

Linux should have no trouble reading the USB drive, or copying files to the hard drive. You can easily "mount" a Windows partition and read / write those files.

Be aware that the "native" file system for most Linux distros is something called Ext4, whereas Windows' "native" file system is NTFS (not sure when they switched to that - but I think XP used that) or some version of FAT (FAT16, FAT32, etc.). Linux can read or write to any of these with no fuss, but the reverse is not necessarily true - Windows can't read / write an Ext4 system without loading special drivers.

In general, USB drives are typically formatted with some version of FAT, and function as the "lowest common denominator" between different systems.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks AW. I'm not sure what I can do with that information.
When Ubuntu loads from the USB it wipes the C-Drive of ALL information. So my Windows XP has "Gone to the ether"!
Now I think I have figured something.
First, While I still had Windows XP, the USB Ubuntu trial stuff worked OK for me. 
So I loaded the "full" Ubuntu to the C-Drive (I think? - I just clicked a button and I think that's what the install prog for Ubuntu was trying to do...). But to make it "finish the installation" I had to re-start the computer. ... BUT, the Boot setting is not to boot from the hard drive, but boot from the USB... so it has been around a loop 4 times now, re-loading Ubuntu from the USB - but not finishing the installation.
So this time I shall not do an "auto-restart" - I think I simply have to turn off the computer, then restart with a change of boot menu to use the C-drive. Then (hopefully?) the Ubuntu can finish installation and continue running from the C-drive, and I can unplug the USB....(???)
Is that logical?
K2


----------



## awake

I wondered if I was giving more information than would actually be helpful! Sorry about that.

Normally, when the installation is finished, it asks you to remove the USB drive and then hit enter to restart. This prevents it from re-booting from the USB.

Given a normal Windows installation, it is true that the only way to preserve that Windows data is to set up a dual-boot installation, rather than a complete installation. However, I believe I understood that you copied all of the data off the Windows system before installing; if that is correct, then once Linux is installed, you can copy the data back to your home directory.


----------



## Steamchick

Just shut-down, instead of allowing the "restart..."
Pulled the USB out:
Screen said "video mode not supported"... Ubuntu start screen flashed on and off.... => I have a black screen....

Just switched "ON"... reset boot from C-drive, not USB...
waiting...

Looks like Ubuntu is loading.... (not holding my breath, just trying to be patient!).

Looks like I have Ubuntu! (Praise the software writers!).
So I'll spend a bit of time tomorrow checking it out and seeing what I can do...

Yes, Andy,  I copied all of the data off the Windows system before installing Ubuntu...

I hope you are all awaiting some intelligent questions from me, when I really get stuck!
K2


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## dazz

awake said:


> I wondered if I was giving more information than would actually be helpful! Sorry about that.
> 
> Normally, when the installation is finished, it asks you to remove the USB drive and then hit enter to restart. This prevents it from re-booting from the USB.
> 
> Given a normal Windows installation, it is true that the only way to preserve that Windows data is to set up a dual-boot installation, rather than a complete installation. However, I believe I understood that you copied all of the data off the Windows system before installing; if that is correct, then once Linux is installed, you can copy the data back to your home directory.


Hi
I am writing this on a dual boot Linux/Windows PC.  The two cohabit easily.  Windows doesn't know about Unbuntu but Linux reads the Windows folders.
Unbuntu is a really good choice for an older computer.  The only thing Linux doesn't do that well with is games.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Dazz, I can only say "well done". My Linux set-up said it would delete "ALL DATA" on the drive before installation, so I assume "Windows XP has gone and goodbye"... I am not sure how to check this from Ubuntu... I am writing from my "newer" PC as it is about as fast as I need, but the old Dell with Ubuntu is very clunky (verging on "stopped clock", or at least long pendulum clock speed!). I am still trying to convince Google that my account is safe with the Linux set-up.
I don't do "games"... at least not on computers. I never really managed to gain any enthusiasm when I was younger, although did put some coinage into one in the 1970s that was "landing the moon lander"! - The tennis thing on a table top in a bar was just good for supporting my pint of beer!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Ubuntu has stopped. With Foxpro open, I was on the 3rd screen of doing "google" security checks, and it went very slow, then when I closed a couple of google pages and opened "Q40S" - to have a look at "Trinity" (because Baron J insists it works well and I should try it) it simply stopped. I have not been able to do anything for 15 mins....
I wonder if the Linux Ubuntu installation did NOT empty the hard-drive of Windows XP - so the free space I expected isn't there? How can I check that? Just switched back-ON to try and have a look...
Aha! Found it! - 4.3Gb used, 32.2Gb free. So memory looks OK. So what stops Ubuntu dead in its tracks? - It starts Ok, but as slow as I can tolerate, then slows over the first hour of "ON" to a dead stop.
K2


----------



## dazz

Steamchick said:


> So what stops Ubuntu dead in its tracks? - It starts Ok, but as slow as I can tolerate, then slows over the first hour of "ON" to a dead stop.
> K2


Look in the logs.  Unlike Windows they are comprehensive and detailed.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Dazz. Where do I find the logs? New to Linux, I am still on a steep uphill learning curve...
K2


----------



## 76dave

I have used a dual boot system using windows 7 and Ubuntu for years, without any problems. First install the windows O.S. and only use half the hard drive. When finished you can the run Ubuntu from the DVD or USB media. At this stage nothing is written to the hard drive but you are given the options to "Try Ubuntu" or "Install Ubuntu". If you choose install, you are then given the options to either 1 "Wipe the drive and install Ubuntu" or 2"Install Ubuntu alongside windows". Choose 2. At the end of the installation process you are asked to remove the installation media and hit "Enter". When you re-boot the computer, you get a menu asking which O.S. you want to start. scroll to the one you want and hit "Enter". Ubuntu or Mint ( which is basicly ubuntu with a different GUI) can be downloaded from the internet and used to create installation media. (DVD or USB memory).
Hope this helps.


----------



## dazz

Hi
Learn to use the command line interface (CLI).  
Learn about logs.  
Open a terminal and issue the commands 
cd /var/logs
ls
less syslog

page up and down to view contents.
look for warning and error messages.
to exit, press q

Linux is the opposite of Windows.  It exposes all the things that windows hides. 
Join forums to find/get advice.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Dave, being in my world of an old limited size of PC.....
Windows XP took 27Gb of the 37Gb of the hard drive. So to load 8Gb of Ubuntu seemed like it would be too much.... (even Windows XP struggled and was slow and unstable when my 8Gb of data files filled the space after XP!...).
So I pressed 1. Yesterday, it seemed like a sensible thing to do, as the trial Ubuntu working in Windows worked fine, and looked like something I could use.
Hindsight is always clearer than foresight though....
I now have Ubuntu on 4.5 with the rest of the hard-drive Empty. No Windows. And a very slow Ubuntu.
So I am wondering what has gone wrong....
K2


----------



## awake

Something is definitely not right if Linux is limping along. This is the sort of situation where I really want to be physically present with the computer - it can be maddening to diagnose remotely, but relatively easy to fix if I can get my hands on it. (I've been down this road many times as the "designated geek" for the family!)

All that to say ... is there any way to find a Linux user in your area who would be glad to come and help you in return for a glass or two? We will do our best, but the difference in time and frustration will be orders of magnitude.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks for the moral support Andy. I am off to France for a holiday soon, so this project will be shelved for a couple of weeks.
I'll get back to it... When I do.
Looks like I need a local chat line contact.
I'll post something to let you know how I get on, but a few weeks time. So don't get frustrated on my behalf.
Chill, my friend.
Thanks,
Ken


----------



## Steamchick

Today Ubuntu updated me to 16.04...
I'll see if that works better (faster?).
K2


----------



## 76dave

27Gb is crazy. Windows XP with sevice pack 3 will fit comfortably into 4Gb. You must have had a awful lot of crap on your hard drive to fill it up that much. I hope you backed up your files before you wiped them installing Linux.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Dave. There were a lot of what I guess were "maintenance" folders for Muck Coffin security as well as Windows, but I haven't any idea what to do with those. They went with the Linux clean-up I think? I know every time micro-sox updated windows that lots of Gb dissapeared from being usable. Filled with what I thought was MS files...?
My 10Gb of data is still on a USB stick, awaiting a new home.
K2


----------



## 76dave

Regarding your slow computer it is sometimes a symptom of a failing hard drive. This is quite possible as you appear to be using a very old machine (nothing wrong with that. I do the same myself), but every Hard drive WILL fail eventually, being an electro-mechanical device. Even though you don't like spending money (who does?) it might be worth buying a new hard drive. That is assuming your motherboard is able to use a new SATA drive. If you are still using the 40 pin IDE system to connect the hard drive, there are interface devices which convert IDE to SATA. Hard drives are relatively cheap now, so a clean install of the operating system(s) is worth a try.


----------



## J Harp

To open a terminal, do ctrl-alt-T, That gives you a screen where you can type the commands which someone has suggested. It's better to copy and paste commands, that way you don't get typos. To copy  a command, highlight it and do ctrl C. to paste it into the terminal you have to do ctrl-shift-V. I'm posting this because I had a devil of a time learning what people meant when they said open a terminal!


----------



## stanstocker

If the hard drive is getting replaced, solid state drives are much faster.  As you are using a 40GB drive, 120 or 240/256 GB SSDs are available very inexpensively.

To some extent, an older machine with additional memory and an SSD can perform well enough to feel like a much more modern machine.  This is assuming the motherboard is recent enough to support SATA.  If the motherboard doesn't have SATA it's time to look for a refurbished or hand me down machine as it also won't have the architecture to perform very well with any modern OS.

In many cases, an older machine may have comparable single threaded CPU performance to many recent machines.  For most stuff single thread performance is more important than having 11 or 15 cpu cores sitting around waiting for something to happen.  The only time I see all my cores crank up is doing video renders or photogrammetry, and with both of those the nvidia video card GPUs tend to do a lot of the heavy lifting while the CPU cores try to keep up.  Two or more threads / cores is nice as the OS and an app can coexist without getting in each others way, but most daily applications won't feel much if any faster on a ryzen 7 than on an older i3 or ryzen 5 second or third generation chip set.

Cheers,
Stan


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Dave, being in my world of an old limited size of PC.....
> Windows XP took 27Gb of the 37Gb of the hard drive. So to load 8Gb of Ubuntu seemed like it would be too much.... (even Windows XP struggled and was slow and unstable when my 8Gb of data files filled the space after XP!...).
> So I pressed 1. Yesterday, it seemed like a sensible thing to do, as the trial Ubuntu working in Windows worked fine, and looked like something I could use.
> Hindsight is always clearer than foresight though....
> I now have Ubuntu on 4.5 with the rest of the hard-drive Empty. No Windows. And a very slow Ubuntu.
> So I am wondering what has gone wrong....
> K2


Windoz xp should not take that much space, maybe with all your files, yes.  Can you get another hard drive?  That would help


----------



## Richard Hed

stanstocker said:


> If the hard drive is getting replaced, solid state drives are much faster.  As you are using a 40GB drive, 120 or 240/256 GB SSDs are available very inexpensively.
> 
> To some extent, an older machine with additional memory and an SSD can perform well enough to feel like a much more modern machine.  This is assuming the motherboard is recent enough to support SATA.  If the motherboard doesn't have SATA it's time to look for a refurbished or hand me down machine as it also won't have the architecture to perform very well with any modern OS.
> 
> In many cases, an older machine may have comparable single threaded CPU performance to many recent machines.  For most stuff single thread performance is more important than having 11 or 15 cpu cores sitting around waiting for something to happen.  The only time I see all my cores crank up is doing video renders or photogrammetry, and with both of those the nvidia video card GPUs tend to do a lot of the heavy lifting while the CPU cores try to keep up.  Two or more threads / cores is nice as the OS and an app can coexist without getting in each others way, but most daily applications won't feel much if any faster on a ryzen 7 than on an older i3 or ryzen 5 second or third generation chip set.
> 
> Cheers,
> Stan


My Lenovo had ONLY 256GB SSD so I bought a camera or phone SSD with 256 GB and use it for my immediate second drive.  Works great.  Even so, I consider half a TB to be too small.


----------



## Richard Hed

76dave said:


> Regarding your slow computer it is sometimes a symptom of a failing hard drive. This is quite possible as you appear to be using a very old machine (nothing wrong with that. I do the same myself), but every Hard drive WILL fail eventually, being an electro-mechanical device. Even though you don't like spending money (who does?) it might be worth buying a new hard drive. That is assuming your motherboard is able to use a new SATA drive. If you are still using the 40 pin IDE system to connect the hard drive, there are interface devices which convert IDE to SATA. Hard drives are relatively cheap now, so a clean install of the operating system(s) is worth a try.


Altho hard drives are not really that expensive, the price has gone up (covid being the bulls**t excuse).  You can get an "exterior " hard drive, break off the cover and put it INSIDE your computer


----------



## Steamchick

Curiously, my more modern Dell has grown the hard drive so I have hundreds of Gb now that I didn't have with earlier windows.
Wonder if there is a new way the OS makes the drive into memory so it seems huge compared to the original?
On the old Dell 280 with Ubuntu that has updated to 16.04. 
Away now. So will continue when I get back home.
Thanks all!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Curiously, my more modern Dell has grown the hard drive so I have hundreds of Gb now that I didn't have with earlier windows.
> Wonder if there is a new way the OS makes the drive into memory so it seems huge compared to the original?
> On the old Dell 280 with Ubuntu that has updated to 16.04.
> Away now. So will continue when I get back home.
> Thanks all!
> K2


Usually, Linux takes a fraction of the space msux does.  but that is JUST the OS.  Programs, of course, take more space


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## Steamchick

Well, a bit more confusion: When I returned from vacation, I tried the Ubuntu... which didn't work, but after a bit of puzzling I got Ubuntu version 18... which works!
EXCEPT: On the old Dell 280 with Ubuntu that has updated to version 18. it is so slow that regularly Foxpro just drops out, or I fall asleep and the security wants me to sign-in and start again, or something, so basically, this computer is SO SLOW - Far worse than with Windows XP) that I am seriously considering binning it. All I wanted was a back-up PC as the more modern Dell I am using with Windows 10 is already too old to upgrade to Windows 11, so eventually will fall over and die... prompted I am sure by MS Death upgrade or whatever they do to stop old Windows from working.
Time to invest in a new PC I think?
Suggestions will be studied and considered...
Thanks,
K2


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## RM-MN

Check how much memory your Dell 280 has.  Newer operating systems like lots of memory.  It may not be very expensive to add memory to it.  Changing my Dell 7010 from 4 GB to 16 GB made a big difference.


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## Steamchick

Linux only occupies 6 Gb of the 30 Gb disc....  unless there is something that is occupying space secretly! - I.E. something the Linux software "disc properties" doesn't have the ability to say exists....
Windows perhaps?
K2


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## kf2qd

O lot of Linux has been done by non-professionals, in the sense that no big corporation was behind the distro. As such it does not have some of the polish that MS users are used to. There is some great software out there but users are very much at the mercy of the creators and maintainers, Any time an OS has instructions on compiling software to be able to use it, it is not quite user friendly.
But then, I have the same problem with GRBL and some other stuff out there in the hobby field. Those who have done the creation have left enough information that they (hopefully) can figure out what they did when they choose to make changes, but others will have to do a lot of reverse engineering to get to the same point.
I used to have a version of Linux on one of my older MS machines that would dual-boot without needing to partition and reformat my HDD. Then versions os MS changed and no one was creating a new Linux version that would do the same. And one time a MS update went bad and for a couple weeks all I had was a Linux boot that would work.
And as far as viruses - There are Linux viruses, and there are MS viruses. Linux might have a bit less of a problem just because the installed user base is bigger for MS and thus there are more places to fish with MS so that is where the fishing is done.


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## 76dave

I have a dual boot machine using windowsXP and ubuntu. Initially, this was very slow until I installed drivers (in windows) for the GF6600 video card. Windows XP is now OK. I now need to find and install drivers for Ubuntu.
Don't know if yours is a similar problem?


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## Steamchick

Thanks Dave. Not having Windows XP anymore, I don't know how that should affect Ubuntu.
I guessed it was because it is a 32-bit processor. Simply too out-dated for today's data heavy stuff?
K2


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## willray

kf2qd said:


> There are Linux viruses, and there are MS viruses. Linux might have a bit less of a problem just because the installed user base is bigger for MS...



Not even close.   MS owns the lions' share of the desktop market, but it's getting to the point where pretty much every other electronic device on the planet runs Linux under the hood.  TVs, phones, your WIFI router -- chances are if your coffee maker has more than an on-and-off switch, it's running Linux to control the interface.

MS systems get viruses because MS thinks their users are too stupid to deal with computer security.  What Linux viruses there are, exist because someone made a mistake.  It's a lot harder to write a virus for an operating system that does not reflexively leave the barn door wide open.


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## skyline1

willray said:


> pretty much every other electronic device on the planet runs Linux under the hood. TVs, phones, your WIFI router -- chances are if your coffee maker has more than an on-and-off switch, it's running Linux to control the interface.



Yes indeed embedded Linux is simply everywhere, although in the case of the coffee maker it probably doesn't need an O.S. as such just a standalone microcontroller which are getting more and more powerful. 

It may well have been programmed using Linux though. Linux is ideal for programming as it has many of the tools built in. 

Indeed in the Linux world compiling programs from their source code is quite common and fairly easy. I have done it a few times and I'm no programmer.



willray said:


> MS systems get viruses because MS thinks their users are too stupid to deal with computer security. What Linux viruses there are, exist because someone made a mistake. It's a lot harder to write a virus for an operating system that does not reflexively leave the barn door wide open.



"Too many eyes on the code" is an expression often used in the Linux world and it is true, Linux leaves less room for these malicious virus writers to operate.
When MS talks about Security what they really mean is Secrecy, They don't want people stealing their "secret sauce" and reducing their vast profits.

Such is the vast "money gobbling machine" that MS has become, even Bill Gates himself doesn't want to know anymore.

Best Regards Mark


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## trlvn

Linux has security issues.  See the following list, for example:






						Linux : Security vulnerabilities
					

Security vulnerabilities related to Linux : List of vulnerabilities 			related to any product of this vendor. Cvss scores, vulnerability details and links to full CVE details and references



					www.cvedetails.com
				




Open source software is NOT all reviewed by "too many eyes".  Take the recent episode where an NPM module was changed to randomly delete data.  Much as the classic XKCD cartoon illustrates rather well:














						Dependency
					






					xkcd.com
				




A decent overview article on Linux and security is at:









						Why Linux’s biggest strength is also its biggest weakness
					

The positives (and negatives) of Linux's peculiar patching process




					www.techradar.com
				




Craig


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