# Another Jan Ridder Flame Engine build



## huse0054 (Nov 17, 2010)

Hi there, I am in the process of building a Jan Ridder internal valve flame engine, why? Because they are insanely intriguing and amazing engines!!!! Now I have never seen one in person, only videos on youtube so I hope that mine will actually work and that it turns out as good as some I have seen. I have read through most every flame engine post on this forum and thought I should go for it. I also wanted to document the build so others can see how I did it and I will try to provide as much detail as possible about the steps I went through and the problems I encountered.

As some background, I enjoy creating stuff from plans and I don't have a creative bone in my body but I am very meticulous and can be somewhat of a perfectionist and I am OK with that. It should also be noted I have never machined anything before and I own no machining equipment. I do not know the correct machining vernacular and how some tools work etc....., and it will be glaringly obvious in my build posts that I am a complete novice, but I am learning and that is the whole goal of building this engine. I am also having a blast doing it!

I know this thread is useless without pictures and one problem is that I am about halfway done with the engine and have not taken any pictures yet. I will take pictures of the completed parts thusfar and incorporate those into the step by step posts and will take pictures of the process going forward.


And one other thing, my wife's father and grandfather own a machine shop and her grandfather will be helping me in this build  should be noted he has no experience in the model engine world.

Thanks again for this fantastic website and talk to you soon.


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## b.lindsey (Nov 18, 2010)

Welcome to the site...will be looking forward to seeing the pics, even of the already completed parts.

Bill


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## winklmj (Nov 18, 2010)

th_wwp


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Like I mentioned before I am about halfway done but here are some of the parts that have been completed, pre polish.

-First Started with turning the 4 bearing support columns on the lathe out of 1/4" stainless round, we then drilled and through tapped for 6-32 stainless Hex bolts. 3 went swimmingly however the tap broke in the 4th one so we had to make another one. They were all rough cut on the lathe and we ground the 4 down on the surface grinder together by bolting them to a piece of scrap steel that was ground on both sides. Then used the depth micrometer to get all 4 to the exact plan height.


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Next were the cylinder support columns that were turned out of 1/2" SS round. They were then drilled completely through to accommodate 10-24 bolts from the bottom that will go through the base plate and then screw into the cylinder. We ground the columns to the finished height on the surface grinder as well






The cylinder was next, we made it out of cast iron that was roughed to size then finished to final size. To add the fins we had to make a 2mm tool and that worked out fantastic other than the fact we both screwed up on the measurement on the lathe, the 6mm depth actually turned out to be only 3mm, apparently there is a difference between the diameter and radius indicator on the DRO!   We didn't figure this out till after we had completed the entire cylinder. The next day we made up a mandrel and used that to turn the fins to the correct 6mm depth, I will try and get a picture of the mandrel we created as I will probably use it again for final sanding and polishing of the cylinder.

After the fins were completed we used a boring bar to complete the cylinder hole. We then used the surface grinder again to get both ends perpendicular to the bore and parallel to each other while at the same time creating the finish length of the piece. Then onto the mill to grind the flame port, mill the 1mm flats for the support columns and drill and tap for 10-24 bolts. We then used a reamer to create the valve rod hole.





Next step was to turn the bushings for the valve rod and press them into the reamed holes. Then onto lapping the cylinder. We created another mandrel and used lapping compound and some diamond lapping paste to smooth out the bore. It worked great and opened up the ID slightly but not an issue as we are planning on making the valves and piston to fit.


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

I am going to use 1/4" stainless for the base with a milled chamfer that may be removed for flat 90 degree sides that can be polished to a mirror finish. I will wait to decide on that. Getting the stainless flat was a slight challenge, we used the large rotary surface grinder (Blanchard I think) but the stainless was getting too hot and it created a bow in the middle as it was being held by a large vice. We then decided to weld a piece of scrap steel to the bottom of the stainless and regrind on the smaller manual surface grinder. That worked fantastic and the top was as smooth as could be. I then proceeded to sand and buff the top but something happened and it created a ton of scratches. I will have to regrind and try again. I want to try and get that mirror finish without the scratches. I must have done something wrong.





See how bad it looks closeup!


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

OK, onto the flywheel. We made this out of a chunk of 3" diameter brass. The 1mm hub on each side was added and then it was turned to the finished diameter and thickness on the lathe. The rest of it was milled using the rotary table. 5mm deep recesses on each side then a 1/2 inch end mill and 6 60 degree rotations on the rotary table to create the holes, we also added a slight chamfer to each hole. We then drilled and tapped the set screw hole and part complete! If I did it over I would sand and polish the mill marks out of the inside diameter recesses before drilling the 6 holes.


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Created this little piece out of brass in a hurry and I am not too fond of it. Will probably remake at some point.


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Bearing supports out of 1/4" brass. Fairly simply and didn't stray too far from the plans, used the mill simply cut bearing holes to fit. Still needs some sanding and polishing. This stuff is like hot butter compared to stainless, scratches and dents galore!


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## Troutsqueezer (Nov 19, 2010)

That's a good start on what should be a fine engine when you've got it done there, huse0054. 

I've found that a good portion of the time it takes to build an engine is spent getting the finish to pass muster. I spend a lot of time scraping my engine pieces across a piece of emery cloth.


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks Dennis, I plan on spending many hours sanding and polishing once it is running. From what I have read many people have not been able to get theirs running and I figured I can shine everything up to "show" quality at that point. Thanks again and I am learning a ton and having fun doing it!


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## huse0054 (Nov 19, 2010)

Well I will try to get caught up to "live" status.  Everything prior to now was created over the last month. 

We started on the crankshaft and are making it out of a scrap piece of 1.5" diameter stainless steel

Roughed the shaft to size on the lathe





Finished shaft diameter to ID of flywheel and bearings





Created a shoulder to ride on the bearing and finished crank diameter and thickness. We then used a hacksaw to remove the piece from the rest of the bar stock, flipped the piece around, re-chucked it and faced it off.





Finished with the turning on this piece, now we need to remove some material to make it look good and to create the pin for the connecting rod.


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## winklmj (Nov 22, 2010)

Great work. Can't wait to see it run.


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## huse0054 (Nov 23, 2010)

OK, so have the engine in the rough finished stage, meaning I have all the parts made but it is not polished etc.. I will wait until it actually runs until I get it looking nice.

- I am in the trouble shooting phase per Jan's website and I am just trying to get the flywheel to spin for 1.5 to 2 minutes and it isn't happening. When it is bolted down it spins for 15 seconds and when I unbolt it and rest it on the base it spins for 30-40 seconds depending on how much muscle I put into it  

Any thoughts? 

I have little experience with bearings but how tight of a fit should they be in the support? I am wondering if they were deformed when I inserted them. Should the flywheel hub be touching the inside bearing race? If they are touching would that increase friction?

For those who have running engines are there special bearings that are needed? 

It feels like it is spinning smoothly and I can't believe I am so far away from the 1.5 to 2 minutes Jan recommends.


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## winklmj (Nov 24, 2010)

Mine doesn't spin that long either. I can't remember how long it went but it was no where near what Jan recommends.

Bolted vs. unbolted--sounds like something is getting a bit out of line. When I set mine up I bolted down the cyl and then the bearing support nearest the connecting rod. Got that lined up and spinning nice. Then tweaked the other bearing support until it spun the best.

You can get the bearing pockets too small where they will squish the bearing. Mine were actually a bit too big and I had to use a punch to prick the walls a bit to make for a tighter fit. I would say loose is better than too tight (just get it so the outer race doesn't spin) as you want the least friction possible.

Yes the flywheel hub should touch the bearing inner races--that's what keeps it inline. There's nothing special about the bearings. Remove the seals (and toss them), flush out all the grease, and use a few drops of light oil instead (I use sewing machine oil).

Try and get it to run...if it ain't broke--don't fix it.


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## huse0054 (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks, for the info, I will try again, and I think one of them was too tight, I tried spinning it with a pen and it feels rough and a makes a grinding sound. I have new ones on order and will try opening the hole up slightly.


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## Omnimill (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't think mine spins over for very long on it's own either, but it runs ok "under flame"!

Vic.


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## huse0054 (Nov 26, 2010)

Well I had it running for the first time tonight . (If I can get it running continuously I will post a vid) It only sustained itself for a max of 45 seconds and I could feel the "power" increase while I was moving the flame around. I feel I am so close to getting a sustained run, however when I did get it to run, although briefly, it was directly after I dumped a bunch of graphite into the flame port. Any suggestions on next steps? 

I am getting good suction when doing the trouble shooting so would that mean the graphite is reducing the friction, thus I should lap the piston and cylinder more to create more clearance?

I also am getting a brown residue on the flame port and cylinder where the flame is hitting, it easily wipes off with a paper towel and some cleaner, Is this normal? I am using denatured alcohol, a fiberglass wick and a burner made out of aluminum.


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## Omnimill (Nov 27, 2010)

On one of Jan's videos it shows graphite being used as the engine is assembled before a run. I've tried it and I'm sure it helps. I wouldn't use any other kind of lubricant though, particularly liquids.

Vic.


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## huse0054 (Nov 27, 2010)

Thanks and I will give that a go, the spirits/denatured alcohol are newly bought from the local hardware store. Maybe I will try getting some new stuff.


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## fcheslop (Nov 27, 2010)

As others have said but don't overdo the graphite I use a4B pencil rubbed round the piston.Best of luck
best wishes frazer


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## huse0054 (Nov 30, 2010)

Well my new bearings arrived, I installed them and still no luck, spent 4 hours tonight testing different configurations etc.. Not even a hint of a run. Kinda depressing. 

Just spinning flywheel- 25 seconds
Flywheel and piston- 12 seconds
Complete assembly with no flame- 6 seconds. 

I hear a very slight rubbing when the piston is about mid stroke but I am scared to give it anymore clearance as I have used lapping compound quite a bit.

Suction seems good and I can complete the test Jan shows with no issues

One thing I did notice is that when the piston pushes the valve open the piston covers the flame hole about 1/4th of the way and when the piston is in the furthest right hand position it is not at the edge of the cylinder.

I will try new fuel when I get a chance, not sure what else to try though as I am currently using denatured alcohol that is brand new. If that doesn't work I guess I might have to try making a new piston and valve out of graphite, that seems to be what others have done.


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## kcmillin (Nov 30, 2010)

With this engine, at least for me, I have to let the engine get quite hot before it runs. I usually take a blow torch to it to heat it up to get running. 

How hot are you getting the engine before you try to start it?

Kel


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## huse0054 (Nov 30, 2010)

Tonight I let the flame heat it up for 10-15 minutes before trying to turn the flywheel. I also tried the blowtorch and it didn't affect it at all.  I will try everything possible to get this thing to run, any other ideas?

I can see a very small amount of light around the top half of the piston when looking through the cylinder, is the piston too small?


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## winklmj (Dec 1, 2010)

FWIW, on mine:

Just spinning flywheel- 27 seconds
Flywheel and piston- 16 seconds
Complete assembly with no flame- 8 seconds. 

Not drastically different from yours.

My piston is very smooth feeling. It does not cover the flame port at all and is at the end of the cyl in furthest right position. Seems like you might shift your cyl left a bit to correct that.

I have to heat mine a couple mins before it will run. You can see and feel the moisture build up during that time--then it slowly goes away. I wiggle the flywheel/piston back and forth during warm up to help get rid of it. It goes from loose, to tight with the moisture build up, then back to loose again--then it's ready to run. A puff of graphite works for lube.

And as Nick mentioned a couple of times in other build logs--things have to be somewhat loose to work. My connecting rod-to-piston, and connecting rod-to-crankshaft fits have some slop as does the push-rod fit into the top of the valve.

As far as light around the piston--I can see some too but it's not easy. Point it straight at the light--like a telescope--and I can see some around the piston. I was surprised at that.

The most critical thing on mine--I believe--was getting the flame positioned just right. The bottom of my "wick-tube" is only just below the bottom of the flame port. Omnimill's vid was the clue for me to raise the flame up a bit. And Jan has a diagram on his site where to position it and mine is pretty darn close to that now. And work it so that a good blue part of the flame is sucked into the flame port and goes in at an angle towards the cyl.


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## Omnimill (Dec 2, 2010)

It seems these engines won't run unless they are warmed up but you will get lots of moisture around the inlet port - this *must* be wiped away before you try starting the engine though, don't let any moisture get sucked into the engine.

Vic.


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## NickG (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt,

Well done on getting this far- mine had similar problems, it would run for a limited time then soot up. Changing my meths to industrial meths helped, ideally, I need a wider wick- think mine is 4mm rather than 7mm dia that Jan specifies.

I have to contradict some of the others on the lubricant thing - I found (idea came when I started building 'poppin' and liasing with another member who had) that mine will only keep running with car engine oil (believe it or not!) Quite a thin grade but when hot, engine oil is very thin and very slippery - it also can deal with the temperature and stops unburnt products from the meths (brown substance you were talking about) from gumming things up.

Maybe the reason I need oil is that my fit between piston, valve and bore isn't as good so it needs the oil to help seal, I think the other advantage is keeping the bore clean - I don't have to strip mine down to clean, just make sure there's enough oil on and let it heat up for 10 or 15 mins before running. The longest run I managed was about 15 mins until the burner ran out. What I really need though is an oil cup at each end for piston and valve, like poppin does for the piston.

I know my comments may seem contraversial - not really, just different and what happened in my experience, worth a try though nothing to lose.

Good luck

Nick


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## huse0054 (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the input everyone, what a fantastic website!!!!

I will try what you all have recommended and am determined to get it running.

It seems flame position is extremely critical, I will try be more precise when testing different positions.

John, fantastic twin design! Would you mind elaborating on a couple things I noticed from your video?
- Is your flame port size to Jan's plans? It looks slightly smaller but that could be an optical illusion.
-Is the wick actually touching the cylinder?
- Am I correct that the diameter of your burner tube is 1/4"?

Thanks


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## huse0054 (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks, I appreciate the info, I will do some testing and report back.


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## Omnimill (Dec 3, 2010)

I checked out the free running time on mine today. Fully built up it only runs for 5 seconds, Flywheel on it's own runs for 70 seconds.

Vic.


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## huse0054 (Dec 3, 2010)

Interesting Vic, I am not sure it truly matters much but any ideas on why your flywheel would spin for more than twice as long as WinklMJ and mine? Or are you just stronger than us?


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## winklmj (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm guessing maybe his piston and valves fit togeter a bit tighter than ours. No matter to me--mine runs--AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

P.S. Hope you get your's running ASAP too.


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## Omnimill (Dec 4, 2010)

huse0054  said:
			
		

> Interesting Vic, I am not sure it truly matters much but any ideas on why your flywheel would spin for more than twice as long as WinklMJ and mine? Or are you just stronger than us?



Don't know, maybe it's the bearings? They are the same size suggested by Jan and un-shielded.

My engine does run quite slow under flame:



Vic.


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## NickG (Dec 4, 2010)

You do need as little friction as possible but I don't think mine coasted for quite as long as Jan stipulated. I know it's pretty low friction though as it always comes to rest in a certain place - out of balance slightly, I didn't put any kind of counter balance on my crank.

I think they all run slowly, as Bogs said, it'll run slowly or not at all, you can't really vary speed by altering flame - just switch it on or off! Whenever I run mine I forget exactly where the flame needs to be and it takes a while to sus out!

Have you thought of making pistons from graphite?


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## winklmj (Dec 4, 2010)

One other thing I forget. It sounds silly but try running it with a butane fireplace starter. It burns much cleaner than the alcohol. That might help if you think it's the residue stopping it from running. 

And my first wick was a ratty piece of cotton and then a tiki-torch wick. They both left some brown gunk. I got a real lamp wick. It still leaves some residue but not nearly as bad as the others did.


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## Omnimill (Dec 4, 2010)

I used this stuff from Germany:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....ee-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1#ht_1517wt_907

Vic.


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## rleete (Dec 4, 2010)

In the US, woven wick can be found at home improvement stores. It's sold as wick for tiki torches and hurricane lamps. It's seasonal, only out when the citronella candles and such are found.


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## huse0054 (Dec 4, 2010)

I am currently using a glass wick and brand new denatured alcohol, however I think I may have found the problem.......

My piston and valve were 2 1/2 thousandths smaller than the cylinder. Looks like my lapping went a little too far. I went ahead and remade the piston but did not have time to remake the valve. So back to testing tonight and I managed to feel some form of success. It felt like it was trying to go and I could definitely feel that some of the strokes were under power. I will remake the valve and try again and hopefully that will solve the problem.


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## winklmj (Dec 4, 2010)

Sounds like progress. And you have all day tomorrow for the valve to and get it running.


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## NickG (Dec 5, 2010)

Good good, fingers crossed. When I was searching for metal yesterday I came across my other 3 sets of valves / pistons ... 4th set worked!


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## huse0054 (Dec 7, 2010)

Well I managed to remake the valve and here are the results. Click on picture!


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## NickG (Dec 8, 2010)

Video is taking its time to load here - well done :bow:

Getting my flame gulper running was the best moment of my Model Engineering life so far ...

Nick


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## Omnimill (Dec 8, 2010)

Congratulations Matt, glad you got a good runner! What do you think the problem was in the end, piston fit or bad fuel?

Vic.


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## winklmj (Dec 8, 2010)

Wooo Hoooo--another running Flame Eater. I love the way they sound just putt-putting along. Nice job!!!  woohoo1


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## Groomengineering (Dec 8, 2010)

Nice work Matt. Thm:

Cheers
Jeff


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## Maryak (Dec 8, 2010)

Good one Matt :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## huse0054 (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks all, it was a great feeling to finally get it running. I have the itch now to start another engine, any suggestions for a good second build after I finish the "bling" on this one?

I found a couple of things that might be helpful to anyone new to this hobby like myself and looking to build this engine. The issues appear to be simply the piston and valve clearance. It truly does need to be as small as possible while still allowing a somewhat smooth movement in the cylinder. Clearance was about 2.5 thousands when I wasn't able to get it to run. After re-making the piston and valve the clearance is now 1/2 thousandths or 5 ten thousandths (I think they are one in the same?) and started up the first time I tried it, heated first with a blow torch for 30 seconds. The Alcohol used was the same for all trials so I do not think that was a factor in getting it to run.

Process for getting them to fit: 
-Turned down valve and piston very carefully to 2 tenthousands oversized of the cylinder
-with them still on the lathe I used 1500 grit sand paper and removed the remaining material until it was a very tight fit in the cylinder, basically needing quite a bit of force to "wedge" it in. I then used Maas polishing compound and very slowly worked the piston and valve back and forth in the cylinder until it was a little tighter than a sliding fit. Then cleaned everything off and basically spent about 1 hour working them back and forth. Maybe not the best or most efficient way to do it but it worked for me.

The flame position as all on here have stated is also important and a little movement in any direction does affect performance. Both Bogs recommendations and the wick postions on the plans work great, any other postion and the engine simply stops as can be seen on the video.

A couple of questions/issues that still need worked out, any suggestions?
1. My valve push rod is made out of 1/16 stainless welding rod, I think it is too thin and bends pretty easily and I can feel some resistance because of the bends, I will move up a size to 3/32nds, hopefully that shouldn't affect much.
2. I still do not understand how to make it so the valve does not get sucked to deep, right now the push rod is long and hits the cylinder wall. Seems to work OK for me but others do not have to keep the valve push rod longer. What gives?
3. After about 10 minutes of constant running the engine seizes up and the valve is very tight, is it getting too hot and expanding at a different rate than the cylinder? Is that possible as they are made out of the same material.


Thanks again for all the help and words of encouragement, once I get it polished up and build a proper base and burner I will re-post a video and pic, I was thinking a high polish on everything with a custom brass burner and an engine turned base raised up on some pillars.


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## NickG (Dec 10, 2010)

Matt,

well done again. That is what I found with the piston / valve fit. I just reamed the bore with an adjustable reamer to ensure roundness and parallelism then turned the piston to suit but I think the clearance in mine is marginally too big still, as I said, it runs better with oil on mine.

With regards to the valve push rod, mine was 3/32". 

I had to make a little brass locking collar with a grub screw to stop mine being sucked in but with hind sight, just leaving it longer and letting it hit the cylinder is a neater solution in my opinion! Although I think I've got a proper grub screw which could let mine look a little better now.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6803.120

It's strange that the valve should expand and tighten up if it's the same material. Could it be the brown residue you get gunging it up? I need to put an oil cup on front and back of my cylinder, that is the only way it will keep running. It keeps it clean and reduces friction once the oil is up to temperature.

If you read my posts from the link above you'll see that there are 2 schools of thought but a few people agree - Mike RC and Marv are the guys that suggested it from their experience with the 'Poppin' flame licker.

Cheers

Nick


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## Omnimill (Dec 10, 2010)

[size=10pt][size=10pt]





			
				NickG  said:
			
		

> Could it be the brown residue you get gunging it up?



I think it is.

Vic.


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## huse0054 (Dec 26, 2010)

Thought I should post a video of my finished engine. I put some polish and the proverbial "bling" on it and it runs great. It gums up and runs rougher after about 20 minutes of continuous running but I am fine with that as the noise drives people crazy long before then. Doesn't bother me any though !!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ae27g4Y5dc[/ame]


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 27, 2010)

Nice Matt.
I like the bling and the base is beautiful too.
The sound is good too. Those other people must not be into engines.


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## doc1955 (Dec 27, 2010)

Nice engine!
I agree those other people must not be into engines I can listen to them run all day ;D.


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## arnoldb (Dec 27, 2010)

Very well done indeed Matt :bow: :bow:
Lovely runner !
And a very neat job on the engine turning as well Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## huse0054 (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for the nice comments and I agree with you all that they are obviously not engine lovers!

I think the engine turning worked great and it was easier to do than I thought, just took some patience and concentration is all.


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## b.lindsey (Dec 27, 2010)

Very well done Matt. Beautiful finish too. I hadn't realized it but without a cam and with the valve actuating system it will indeed run eitiher direction as your video shows.

Nice job!!

Bill


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## huse0054 (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks Bill, 

I am amazed at how simple these engines are yet when I try to explain it to people they have a tough time grasping the concept. They think there is some combustion and pushing action involved and when I explain the vacuum principle they don't quite get it.

Here are a couple of finished still shots. Now to try and figure out what engine to build next. I want to try and stay away from an IC, steam or air engine and am looking at a sterling, LTD or Jan Ridders pulse Mobile although that one seems to be very hard to get running correctly.


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## NickG (Dec 29, 2010)

Wow, amazing finish and runs brilliantly matt, :bow:

Even my wife likes it, just had to explain machine turning (well, the way I know it) - she'll be expecting that on my next engine now, will see if I can do it!

Nice video too.

Can't wait to see your next project.

Nick


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## huse0054 (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Nick I appreciate it! 

The "Machine" or "Engine" turning is a piece of cake and I am sure you will do just fine with it. Relatively speaking it didn't take that much time to do and I think it really added the finishing touch to the engine. Plus, it covered up all of the little scratches I couldn't get out of the stainless. 

I basically copied Bog's post on how to do it and the DRO made the job simple, found centerline, used 1/2" cratex with 1/4" offsets alternating either side of the centerline.


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## NickG (Dec 30, 2010)

Good stuff, cheers Matt, I seem to remember bogs doing a post on it now, I was taught to use a wooden dowel with valve grinding paste. What's cratex? Will give your method a whirl.


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## huse0054 (Dec 30, 2010)

www.cratex.com

Just rubberized abrasive sticks. 

I am sure a dowel with sandpaper or grinding paste will work just as well. However I did find another use for the cratex sticks when trying to sand and polish the inside of the flywheel. It worked very well for getting the tooling marks out of the brass.


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## NickG (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks Matt, sound useful.


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## Fingers (Jan 5, 2011)

Congratulations Nick
I just read through all of your post again fair play for sticking at looks great. You have giving me the itch to bling mine up now :bow:
Jamie


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