# Werowance builds a webster



## werowance (Dec 27, 2018)

finally getting around to start building a Webster.  started with the base and already running into a tooling issue.  my vice can hold the plate on the side in order to square up the long edges but I don't have room to do the short edges and my vice wont hold the plate flat because its to big.  my machine is a combo lathe mill.

I'm wondering how I'm going to clamp that plate down flat so I can square up the short ends and then drill the holes without a bigger vice.  I was thinking of just mounting it to the table but I don't have enough down travel on the mill head to go that far down with the drills without an extension or something.  I'm not sure I have any flat stock that I could stack on the table to bring the plate up high enough either.  any suggestions?


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## Cogsy (Dec 27, 2018)

It looks like a reasonably hefty chunk of plate that shouldn't flex too much with light cuts, so I would guess you could use some riser blocks under each end/side and clamp it directly to the table, rather than having to pack it up with solid plate for the full width. Basically just some decent 'legs' to bring it up high enough. Alternatively, you could drill some holes in inconspicuous places and bolt something to the bottom of the plate that can be gripped by your vice.


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## werowance (Jan 18, 2019)

ok, after several days of looking around, head scratching and trying to come up with a way to do it without buying a new vice I came up with this.  all a bunch of scrap rusty steel I found in the corner of my shop.  welded it up, used an end mill to clean and level the top once bolted down and then a final very light pass with a fly cutter.  then evenly spaced 1/4 x 20 holes every 1 inch on both sides to give me a way to clamp it down.  its dead center with my lathe chuck as well so I can take those ends down square  easily with the lathe portion of my combo machine or I can use the mill portion as well.  the lathe portion is much sturdier than the mill head.  once I get the short ends squared and to length then I can drill the holes.  I don't plan on making the radius cuts like the plans show because I will probably use a good portion of it for a gas tank mount and also will likely rescess it in a wooden base when /if I ever complete it.   I just have 3 bolts sticking up just for show.  ill also try to use nuts on the back side of the bolts I can get a wrench to since the plate is so thin.  probably only 1/4 inch before I started.  and it was nasty metal.  it chipped appart instead of cut.  seems brittle.


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## werowance (Jan 23, 2019)

well the table worked well but had a horrible weekend in the garage.  had all the sides squared and to size and the next day I went to drill the holes.  1. my led edge finder wouldn't work.  found that the resister between the battery and the led had broken.  2. my digital calipers wouldn't come on. 3. my number 9 drill was bent - what I get for letting others use my tools.

so after giving up I went in and ordered a new edge finder and new calipers.  next day I was bored out of my mind (I had planned to be in the shop all weekend long making parts)  then I had an idea to take an ink pen tube and make a new tube for the resister like the old broken one.   it actually worked and my edge finder came back to life.  then took the caliper cover appart and cleaned the contacts for the on and off and they came back to life.  now still had to wait another day until the local drill and bold supplier was open to get that number 9 drill.  and by last night I had all holes drilled and the locktite broken loose and base plate removed from the new table.  glad I got to have a little fun this weekend.


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## werowance (Jan 23, 2019)

Brian, if you are watching this build,  could I ask a favor,  on your gears, could I get 2 measurements?  the outside measurement of the the gears and then a second measurement of how deep the teeth are  maybe an outside diameter and then a second diameter or circle for the bottom of the teeth?  I have the gear cutters but don't know the actual size of the gears without shelling out the bucks to buy them.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 23, 2019)

Google the part numbers given for the gears in the original set of drawings be webster. all the gear info is given.---Brian


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## larryg (Jan 24, 2019)

werowance said:


> finally getting around to start building a Webster.  started with the base and already running into a tooling issue.  my vice can hold the plate on the side in order to square up the long edges but I don't have room to do the short edges and my vice wont hold the plate flat because its to big.  my machine is a combo lathe mill.
> 
> I'm wondering how I'm going to clamp that plate down flat so I can square up the short ends and then drill the holes without a bigger vice.  I was thinking of just mounting it to the table but I don't have enough down travel on the mill head to go that far down with the drills without an extension or something.  I'm not sure I have any flat stock that I could stack on the table to bring the plate up high enough either.  any suggestions?



I realize this doesn't help since you've solved the problem but did you try holding the plate in the vise with the removable jaws moved to the outside of the fixed and/or movable jaws?  It sure looks like that would have allowed you to hold the piece. You can see the different ways to fit the jaws here, http://machinetoolsforsale.com/Kurt.htm

lg
no neat sig line


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2019)

Larryg,  no I didn't try that,  never knew I could do that.  that may come in very handy next time


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2019)

so a couple of questions,  1. is there a tool to cut the relief out for a flat head screw if so whats it called?  I normally use a drill bit large enough to make that relief however it makes a triangle hole,  if there is a tool just for this I would like to look into purchasing it.  2. to make a concave radius say .250 would I use a .500 drill bit right?  other than that I didn't get hardly any shop time this past week because of a ankle injury.  couldn't walk for 2 days and wasn't about to stand on cold concrete floor when I got better enough to move around.  but I did manage to locktite 2 pieces of aluminum plate together to be ready to make the bearing supports.  also ordered the ball bearings.  expensive little bearings at that....


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## Cogsy (Jan 28, 2019)

I think the tool you're looking for is a counterbore, like this set LINK.


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2019)

Cogsy said:


> I think the tool you're looking for is a counterbore, like this set LINK.


those look like they would be for shcs,  what I'm looking for would create a 45degree relief for the screw  sort of like this   "  \_/ "  so a screw like this would seat in it


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## Cogsy (Jan 28, 2019)

werowance said:


> those look like they would be for shcs,  what I'm looking for would create a 45degree relief for the screw  sort of like this   "  \_/ "  so a screw like this would seat in it   View attachment 106990


Oh, right, sorry. Countersinks then - LINK.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 28, 2019)

Just be aware--Metric countersinks and fasteners have an included angle of 90 degrees. Imperial (inch) countersinks and fasteners have an included angle of 82 degrees.


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2019)

Cogsy said:


> Oh, right, sorry. Countersinks then - LINK.


ok, what about this set for imperial for the Webster?  1/4 is its smallest
https://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-5-Piece-Twist-Drill-Bit-Set/1000236049

and then on the radius question, I am correct about .250 radius would require a .500 drilled hole to do it right? or does it require a .250  ?


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 28, 2019)

The countersinks you linked to look okay. And yes, a 1/4" radius means drilling a 1/2" hole.


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2019)

Thank you


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## werowance (Jan 29, 2019)

the package I was waiting on with my bearings arrived last night from global power from NY.  unfortunately instead of bearings they had shipped 2 drive belts of some sort.  this will probably set me back another week waiting on the bearings to get straightened out.


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## werowance (Feb 7, 2019)

got my bearings in and also helped someone out with making a new handle bolt for their gun safe and now I'm back to work on the engine.

on laying out the inside radius I just cant seem to get it right.  attached is a drawing of where I'm having trouble and if I move my table up and to the right by .250 in both directions from where the lines intersect which I have circled then that is where I should drill a .500 hole to get a .250 radius correct?  when testing it with layout dye and my compass set with one point in where the drill puch mark would be and the other side of my compass extended out by .250 it just wont intersect with the lines correctly.  seem to be at the least to far to the right.  so what can you think of that I'm doing wrong or how would I locate that drill to get the radius.  I realize I could just omit the radius but part of the fun is learning (to a certain extent).  so basicly if measure from the far right hand of the part to the left I was measuring 3.250 and scribed a line up and down.  and then (measurement not shown in the pic) looking at the part on the far right hand that part is 1.250 high so I measured 1.500 high and scribed a line from left to right and from where my to scribed lines intersected I thought should be where the .500 drill would go.  but in testing it misses the mark.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 7, 2019)

Should be .250" offset parallel from both lines--Not .250 to the right.---Brian


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## werowance (Feb 7, 2019)

hmm,  well I'm thinking that's what I was saying.  basicly in the drawing where I the x is where my arrow points  starting in the center of that x I moved right .250 and I moved up .250.  I just took a long winded way of calling off the measurements for height and length to get to the point of saying middle of that circled x.


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## werowance (Feb 7, 2019)

or I am miss understanding what you are saying


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## Cogsy (Feb 7, 2019)

Disregard this post - I think I fudged my math...


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## Cogsy (Feb 7, 2019)

Ok, I think I have it right now. You need to be 0.250 high in the Y direction so you can mark a line at that height. Then you need to mark a line at the same angle as your sloped line, that is 0.250 above that surface as well (running parallel to the sloped line). The point at which these two lines meet is the point you need to drill your radius. I've included a horrible 'sketch' to show what I mean.


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## werowance (Feb 8, 2019)

ah,ok that makes sense and I see where I am making my mistake I was going straight up not angled up.  now that's going to be a little difficult to duplicate that angled line exactly.  I guess I would extend the top and bottom measurement by .250 to get my intersecting points to draw the parallel angled line.  Thanks so much for that explanation.


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## TonyM (Feb 8, 2019)

Up  and right gives a different result to two parallel lines as per Brians post.


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## TonyM (Feb 8, 2019)

Thats odd. Cogsy and Werowance posts appeared as I sent mine. Bit of a duplication of effort.


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## cheepo45 (Feb 8, 2019)

Why don't you just lay out your lines and cut to them with a .500 end mill?
Instant .25 radius.
 Scott


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## werowance (Feb 8, 2019)

Cheepo45, that's a really good idea!   and I also learned why my radius layout wasn't working for me either.  I think ill go with Cheepo's suggestion but I am glad that I learned how to measure and drill for it as well.  Thank you all VERY MUCH!


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## werowance (Feb 14, 2019)

ok, got back to work on my Webster and got along with the bearing supports pretty good until my bandsaw blade snapped.  I figured it would,  I had put a kink in it accidently sawing some other material and got it in a bind last time I used it.
the both sides were lock tighted together and all sides milled to size and the main bearing hole reamed .4995 and the bottom mounting holes drilled and tapped together.  hoping this will keep everything aligned right.  then split apart to bandsaw out the unused material.  got part of the way there and snap....   hopefully ill be able to pick one up today on my lunch break.  the .250 hole for the camshaft rod was reamed .2495 and hope for a press fit.  on the bearings,  they actually measured .4999 and even with a 4.995 reamer they still slid in the hole with just light finger push in.  I would liked to have seen a little tighter but I will put a drop of lock tite on them when I install.


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## werowance (Feb 14, 2019)

thinking ahead a little here, but on the rod,  instead of brass or bronze bushings could I substitute a roller bearing on the crankshaft end so that I could forgo that oiler cup hanging off the side?  I think I may have a roll of bearings that will fit the shaft if I enlarge the rod a little on that end.  just the crankshaft end not the piston end.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 14, 2019)

A ball bearing maybe, certainly not a roller bearing. a ball bearing has a hardened inner race. A roller bearing puts the rollers in direct contact with the shaft, which would mean that your shaft has to be hardened, or it will gall very quickly.


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## werowance (Feb 14, 2019)

Thanks,  I did mean a ball bearing like used on the crank shaft supports. my mistake on calling it the wrong thing.  I was thinking a sealed bearing, I have different assortments for rc car application and such.  some came from old postage machines and sorting machines and some from ebay.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 14, 2019)

If you use a sealed ball bearing, pry the seals out and discard them, and wash the grease out of the bearings. Either run the bearings dry or use a bit of very light machine oil on them.


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## werowance (Feb 15, 2019)

got along pretty good last night,  picked up a new bandsaw blade, some countersincs and got one of the bearing supports done.  milling the angle made me a bit nervous as it was very close to one of the vice jaws.  but all came out good I think.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2019)

Inside corner looks good. I always drill a hole of the correct diameter and then bandsaw up to the hole, then file away the burrs. I never have a lot of luck with inside corners, that is why I bought the oscillating spindle sander to clean them up better.---Brian


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## werowance (Feb 15, 2019)

Thanks Brian,  I was going to do it with a drill but the angle was just difficult to scribe the second line on the angled part so I did the 1/2 inch end mill as cheepo45 suggested.  and was really slow and light cuts so I didn't go to far.


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## bill70j (Feb 15, 2019)

werowance said:


> thinking ahead a little here, but on the rod,  instead of brass or bronze bushings could I substitute a roller bearing on the crankshaft end so that I could forgo that oiler cup hanging off the side?  I think I may have a roll of bearings that will fit the shaft if I enlarge the rod a little on that end.  just the crankshaft end not the piston end.



This is probably a dumb question - but here it goes:

The crank oiler cup that Webster designed to double as a rod keeper in his plans is threaded to the crank pin.  If you run the engine in reverse, that is, the flywheel running CCW when looking at it from the flywheel side, should the keeper be a left hand thread?  This would apply to a threaded bearing keeper if that is the route you go.

I ask because I am just completing my Webster build, and the oiler un-threaded itself when I was playing around with it.  That happened because the oiler had seated against the rod rather than against the crank pin, which I remedied with a washer.   But still, seems it should be a left hand thread.

What do you think?


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## werowance (Feb 15, 2019)

i really hadn't thought about that.  Brian do you know?  If I do a bearing I will us a washer and thread a nut up tight against the race so that it is stationary (the race) and should run in either direction without an issue that way because both races would be stationary to their corresponding parts and only the balls would be moving and I don't think their would be enough friction to in screw the nut.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2019)

When in doubt--use a little #638 Loctite on the thread. I guarantee that it will not unthread, but if you want to disassemble it after the fact, a wrench will break the Loctite bond quite easily. I never used any left hand threads when I built my engine. If you guys are going to mess around with these little engines, then you damn near have t have a bottle of green Loctite.


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## cheepo45 (Feb 15, 2019)

Great progress!


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## bill70j (Feb 15, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> When in doubt--use a little #638 Loctite on the thread. I guarantee that it will not unthread, but if you want to disassemble it after the fact, a wrench will break the Loctite bond quite easily. I never used any left hand threads when I built my engine. If you guys are going to mess around with these little engines, then you damn near have t have a bottle of green Loctite.



Thanks, Brian.

Appreciate the years of knowledge you bring to us neophytes. Especially in this case as regards your Webster crank design, valve lapping knowledge, offset cam machining info, and Viton ring specification.

I have incorporated your Webster mods, along with those of many others who post here, and am near first "pull."

Bill


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## werowance (Feb 18, 2019)

need a little help,  looks like the best approach to doing the head is using a boring head on the mill.  but since its a blind hole (refering to the combustion chamber) how does one not end up will several grooves on the inside bottom of the head?  on the lathe I can flatten than back out with a skim cut from center to edge and it will be flat (learned that on this site a few years ago).  with a boring head I don't have that ability,  I would have to stop and turn the screw and start again.  only direction I can go is up/down when the mill is running to bore a hole.  so whats the technique here?   I looked and several builds and they all used the boring head.  I was about to just drill for the spark plug hole then transfer to the lathe and 4 jaw.  but it does seem easier to keep it in the vice so after that's done the other holes could be drilled and tapped without having to edge find all over again.


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## bill70j (Feb 18, 2019)

I used the lathe method you describe.  I find it much easier to bore to dimension on the lathe rather than on the mill.

I first drilled the M-10 hole and the screw holes on the mill, then tapped the screw holes while still in the mill vise.

After that, I transferred the piece to the lathe and chucked it up in the 4-jaw to bore the hole.  I later tapped M-10 hole.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 18, 2019)

It wouldn't matter if there were annular grooves on the inside bottom of the head. Nobody will see them, nobody will know about them except you.--Kinda like wearing dirty underwear!!! It won't have any effect on how the mixture burns. it was 10 years ago that I built my Webster, and I don't remember what method I used.---I just checked post #29 in my Webster build, and it seems that I did my cylinder head on the milling machine with a boring tool.
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/anybody-want-to-guess.7687/page-2


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## werowance (Feb 20, 2019)

i really didn't make much progress this long weekend....  found I don't own a m10x1.0 tap or a 9mm drill so I ordered that.  then i just started looking for and squaring up material.  i have the head squared up and marked out,  the valve blocks rough cut and the crank shaft to outside diameter and 1/2 extra long.  found some 1/4 drill rod for the cam shaft but didn't cut it yet and called it a day.  the head came from a huge plate of 3/4 inch aluminum that was nasty dirty and greasy  but it was a free piece given to me so i cant complain...


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## werowance (Feb 20, 2019)

on the points,  the screw that goes through the pivot hole,  should that be a shoulder bolt so that it doesn't tighten up to much on that area?  saw somewhere on an engine build that the points were eratic because the screw was to tight.

then next question, on the rocker arm spring,  i had an old Honda starter recoil spring and rope and thought i was going to use that.  well the spring ( i left my notes at home so these are guesses from memory) is about .218 wide and plans call for .281 and then thickness is about .022 thick and plans call for .010.  do you think this will still work out?  i also have an metal bandsaw blade that i broke the other day,  its pretty springy,  i could grind it to size and thickness maybe?  defanetly not going to be able to cut it though.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2019)

Just use a standard #10 socket head capscrew, but before you do, run a 3/16" drill down thru the pivot hole on the points. That will take out very little material, but will let the points pivot freely. Put a dab of Loctite on the portion of bolt threads that screw into the sideplate.--Only a dab, and don't get it on the points. Your spring will work fine. For the other bolt which locks the points at some specific setting, I find that a #6 button head capscrew works really well.


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## werowance (Feb 20, 2019)

looking around to see if I can find some ball bearings to substitute for the brass rod bush on the crank side and it seems I can get .250 id ball bearings with the correct .375 od that the plans call for.  on the .250 the plans say that should be .281.  do you think .250 on the crankshaft would be strong enough for this engine?  would be nice to use ball bearings instead of brass bushing bearing on it.

also picked up a 9mm drill for the spark plug hole on lunch today. hope to get some shop time tonight and get back to work on the head.


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## bill70j (Feb 21, 2019)

werowance said:


> would be nice to use ball bearings instead of brass bushing bearing on it


932 bearing bronze would work, but agree brass would not be as effective.  Same with the wrist pin bushing.  Not sure about using ball bearings in a conrod application.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 21, 2019)

1/4" rod will work for the crankshaft.--then again, you shouldn't have trouble getting 9/32" i.d. bearings.


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## werowance (Feb 25, 2019)

well we now have a head.  it didn't give it up easily though...  broke a drill in it but fortunately it had gone far enough to just make a dimple on the other side, I used a spring loaded center punch to get it started then ground the tip of a sheetrock screw to a very small tip and managed to drive it out without damaging anything.  got it all bored and bolted up.


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## werowance (Feb 25, 2019)




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## werowance (Feb 25, 2019)

now onto the cylinder.  looking at the plans I see no indication of what the outside diameter should be.  maybe I'm overlooking it I'm not sure.  I'm thinking since the head is 1.5 then maybe the outside of the cylinder should be to?  I happen to have a piece of 12l14 in 1.5 dia but ill have to take a light skim cut on it so that will probably make it 1.45 or so.  you all think this will be good enough or do I need to source some larger material?


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2019)

Yes, you can make the outside dia. of the cylinder a bit smaller without any trouble.--Brian


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## werowance (Feb 25, 2019)

so you think 1.45 is good?


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2019)

Yes, 1.450 is good.


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## werowance (Feb 25, 2019)

still tossing around the bearing idea on the rod.  now I m considering needle bearings like you would find on the rod of a chain saw.  for the crank shaft where the bearings would run on,  I'm thinking drill rod hardened and then polished?  or am I just looking for trouble there and just stick with doubled up ball bearings?  just thinking about things since I cant do any machining right now.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2019)

Don't use needle bearings. Use 0.281" diameter ball bearings. Okay--I just did a web search and I couldn't find 9/32" ball bearings. Your other options are to use 3/8" diameter ball bearings and put a sleeve in them to bring them down to 9/32" or else to use oilite bronze bushings.


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## Cogsy (Feb 25, 2019)

I agree with Brian that you don't need needle rollers. Needle rollers will generate more friction than balls and your shaft needs to be appropriately hard (not just 'any old hard') and tremendously smooth as well or you will get failure quite quickly. The only reliable way to use them would be to install an inner race for the needles to run on and then you have about the same weight and size as balls. The needle rollers will have a higher load rating than the balls but you don't need a high load rating in this application.


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## werowance (Feb 28, 2019)

about to get the bore done on the cylinder.  now I know why its called "boreing"  becaue its a real bore going that slow and so many passes.  I have to stop and find something else to do to wake me up....  started out with a sharp "V" shaped grind on the cutting tip till about .840 for fast cutting and then reground it to more of a "U" shaped tip for better finish.  I'm at about .860 as of last night and called it quits,  its like watching paint dry in and out slowly 3 full sets before advancing to a deeper cut so I don't end up with a taper hopefully.  picture below is with the "V" grind on the tip.  its a homemade boring bar with a broken drill bit ground as the cutting tool and a set screw in the tip.  works pretty good.  its what I used on the flame eater engine build on 303 stainless - this is 12L14 I'm cutting for this engine.


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## Cogsy (Feb 28, 2019)

I guess it depends on your tooling and set-up but generally for boring I only do 1 pass per step until I start getting towards required size. I also don't care a great deal about finish till getting close to size either. It's still 'boring' but I don't need to split it into multiple sessions to get it done.


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## werowance (Mar 1, 2019)

Thanks Cogsy,  guess the reason for multiple light pass's is because i seem to always get a taper if i don't.  but I'm almost there anyway.  but brings me to my next story.  so i forgot to add that before i started boring i needed to drill it out to about 3/4.  so got my drills out to step up to the size and then i got to play one of my most favorite games (sarcasam).  I'm sure some of you all have played it before as well.  its called "wheres my Jacobs chuck key".  i searched and i searched and looked where it is supposed to be and then where i might have left it multiple places and then back.  after about an hour of this game i finally found it.  right where it was supposed to be.  i just kept overlooking it as its in with some of my other chuck keys in a peg board container.grrrrr i hate when i do that.  so last night i was ready to start getting more accurate checks on my bore with a bore gauge (i was just using my calipers with the inside jaws for rough quick measuring).  well so last night i got to play another game called "wheres my bore gauge"  after about another hour of searching and cleaning up and looking right where all my other bore gauges are i remembered that the last time i used that one the tips had popped out and spring and tip flew across the room never to be found.  oh well it was a harbor freight cheap kit so ill pick up another one on lunch today and then later in life hope to invest in a little more quality ones. 
anyway i swithched from boring to outside cutting for the few minutes i had left in the garage last night.  at this rate i might have it finished by winter 2025 or so.


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## werowance (Mar 4, 2019)

just a little bit of progress this weekend


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## werowance (Mar 18, 2019)

very little progress lately.  about the only thing I have gotten done was to make an arbor for my gear cutters.  hope to make some gears soon.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 18, 2019)

I'll give you a little tip--Don't use the key. If you are cutting a gear and the cutter binds at all in the cut, it may split your gear cutter right in half. Those gear cutters are harder than the devil's horn, and it doesn't take a lot of sudden "grabbing" to destroy them.. I don't use a key with mine, and I've never had them slip.


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## werowance (Mar 18, 2019)

Thanks Brian,  ill forgo the keyway when I get to use it.  and speaking of tips. (time for a little humor)  I have one......don't fry bacon in the nude.......


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## werowance (Mar 18, 2019)

Now I hope my humor didn’t offend.  Especially Brian since I used his post to launch my joke.  It wasn’t a derogatory thing against anyone.  Especially not Brian.   But think about it.  How bad bacon pops and sizzles. 

Anyway tonight I got to start my first partial mow of the yard for the year and soon plow garden.  Home jobs are creeping up fast.


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## Jones (Mar 19, 2019)

werowance said:


> Thanks Brian,  ill forgo the keyway when I get to use it.  and speaking of tips. (time for a little humor)  I have one......don't fry bacon in the nude.......





werowance said:


> Now I hope my humor didn’t offend.  Especially Brian since I used his post to launch my joke.  It wasn’t a derogatory thing against anyone.  Especially not Brian.   But think about it.  How bad bacon pops and sizzles.
> 
> Anyway tonight I got to start my first partial mow of the yard for the year and soon plow garden.  Home jobs are creeping up fast.


Haha don't stress, I got a good laugh out of it.

Bit of a lurker here but I'm following your build with interest, it's all looking great!


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 19, 2019)

Werowance--Where the heck are you? I've still got 10" of snow in my yard.---Brian


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## werowance (Mar 20, 2019)

im in Virginia.  just plowed last night.  to early to plant but plowing while still getting frost helps to break up the clumps so I don't have to disk it come time to plant.  I even mowed a portion of my yard night before last.  allergy season almost here.


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## werowance (Mar 22, 2019)

finaly got a little time in the garage last night.   Brian we did get a little sleet yesterday afternoon (first picture).  then I started cutting some brass someone gave me.  I thought it was bronze and it was beat up and old looking.  I think someone had been using it as a punch.  1.125 dia but had been held with vice grips or something and both ends mushroomed out and gouges all over the sides.  once I cut through the skin and old I realized its brass.  but hopefully will make a good gear.  I stopped cutting and called it quits when I hit .975 of the .875 I needed and went in for the night.  (2nd picture of the material I'm working with).  then as a safety note to self and anyone else with a combo lathe mill.  don't leave a milling bit in the mill when not in use.  this time I just barely nicked my hand but I have in the past cut my self pretty bad with a non moving bit left in the chuck.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 22, 2019)

Looks like a common case of "millus biteuss", common to all machinists. Is your machine a combined lathe and milling machine?---Brian


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## werowance (Mar 25, 2019)

yep its a combo so the mill head is over the compound.  I can raise it up and can swing it a little back and fourth but its always right in the way and I find my self always leaving a cutting tool in its chuck.  I have however trained my self to always remove the chuck key from the lathe....


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## werowance (Mar 25, 2019)

so,  on the gear I was working on.  turns out I was on the wrong line of the stock drive products pdf and was reading the 26 tooth gear dimensions.  24 tooth is supposed to be .812 outside and I managed to go over to somewhere between .811 or .8105.   bummer.... but I went ahead and cut the gear anyway if not for anything else practice.  and who knows maybe it will fit good enough.  it turned out pretty good I think even if it is a little bit smaller.


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## werowance (Mar 29, 2019)

I have a problem.  I have cut the gear blank for the 48 tooth gear and put it on the rocker shaft and slid the 24 tooth gear up to it on the crank shaft and they are going to be way to close to each other.  the 24 tooth is actually .001 or .0015 smaller than the stock drive products spec sheet and the 48 tooth is dead on outside diameter.  I took a pic with blue dye and 2 marks made by the outside and inside of the teeth from the 24 tooth rubbing on the 48 and it shows going way to deep. 

so now I'm wondering if I'm reading the stock drive products  sdp for short pdf dimensions wrong.  if anyone has a Webster or the gears for one could they please measure the outside diameter and tell me what they are please.  I really hope my mistake is in the gears and not on the supports.

I forgot to bring my phone so no pic yet of the marks I made to show just how bad they overlap.


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## bill70j (Mar 29, 2019)

I bought my gears from W. M. Berg.  I just measured the OD's installed on the engine and compared the measurements with the Berg spec sheets:
48-tooth gear:  Measured OD = 1.564 vs 1.562(spec)
24-tooth gear:  Measured OD = 0.8112 vs 0.812(spec)

I am not sure if there is a procedure for measuring gear OD, but,
I measured the smaller gear with an 0-1 mic
The larger gear was difficult to get to so I had to use calipers.  That measurement is a little shaky

HTH,  Bill


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## werowance (Mar 30, 2019)

thanks  Bill.  I believe that's what mine are to  when I get back out to the shop ill double check but that means that the support is drilled wrong.   ugh....


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2019)

well I found the problem. the hole for the 48 tooth gear stud is .100 to far to the rear as well as .100 to high.  this tells me that I forgot to subtract that from my edge finder.   grrrrr.  the other holes are correct though.  so im thinking ill plug that hole and redrill however I have never done this type of repair before.  ive seen several here do it but not I.  so what do you think,  tap the hole and thread a plug with lots of high strength locktite and then remove the excess to flush with both sides?  or just stick a round plug in the already smoothe bore with locktite?  when redrilling I will be partially hitting the old hole. 

then my next question,  looking at the gear chart below.  the "p.d." diameter which is the bottom of the tooth grove.  when I measured to make that cut to depth I subtracted P.D. from O.D and went that deep however I think that was wrong,  what I should have done is subtract P.D. from O.D. then divide by 2 to calculate the depth of my cut correct?

thanks for all the help.


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2019)

oh, and if you think I should use a threaded plug,  what size would you recommend assuming the hole is at .250 right now.  should I consider going a lot larger or try to stay as close to that size with my drill and tap?  and should I be thinking fine thread or course thread?


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2019)

forgot the gear chart


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 31, 2019)

Werowance.--P.D. is the pitch diameter, not the root diameter of the gear teeth. O.D. is the outside diameter, but you don't have anything on that chart that tells you what the root diameter is. When you mesh two gears, the center to center distance is 1/2 of the pitch diameter of one gear plus 1/2 the pitch diameter of the other gear. If you are making your own gears, I don't think you have all the correct information for doing it. The center to center distance in the downloaded plans is correct for the center to center of the correct gears as purchased from Berg. What you should do now, if you have kind of lost your place, is to take the two gears you have, mesh them with one and other, measure (as best you can) the center to center, then use that measurement to drill and ream correct size holes for stub shafts in a scrap piece of material and put the gears on the stub shafts and see if you can easily turn them by hand to see how they mesh. Once you have determined what that center to center distance is, you can use that on your engine. To plug a hole in aluminum, I generally turn a plug about .0005" larger than the hole to be plugged, cover it with Loctite, and press it into place. A vice can work to do that. Let it set up 24 hours, then file it flush on both sides and put the new hole in the correct place. The old timers would put a cigarette paper (which is 0.001" thick) between the two gears when they meshed them to give a little "running clearance". I don't do that myself.


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2019)

well, all I have cut is the 24 tooth gear and I knew once I cut the blank I had already cut it to small so it was just a test.  but the blank for the 48 tooth is right on for od.  is there anyway to get the proper depth short of purchasing the gears?  which I just may have to do


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 1, 2019)

Tooth size is determined by #1--diametral pitch which is the number of teeth per 1" of pitch circle diameter. and by #1--Circular pitch CP which is the distance between adjacent teeth measured along the arc at the pitch circle diameter.
A stands for addendum which is the height of tooth beyond the pitch circle diameter.
CTT stands for circular tooth thickness which is the thickness of the tooth at the pitch circle diameter.
D stands for dedendum which is depth of tooth below the pitch circle diameter. 
Pitch diameter is determined by   number of teeth in a gear divided by the DP number
so for instance, a 18 tooth gear divided by the DP (24 in my case) will equal 0.75" P.D.
Outer diameter of a gear blank is determined by adding number of teeth plus 2 and dividing by the DP which in my case is 24---so 18+2 divided by 24=.833"outside diameter.
Depth of cut on a gear blank will  be a constant of 2.157 divided by the DP---in my case with 24 DP gear cutters it will be 2.157 divided by 24 which equals .0899"--this depth of cut will remain the same for all 24 DP gear cutters.
The small 18 tooth Webster gear requires a blank 0.833" diameter. the depth of cut will be .0899"
It will require a #6 gear cutter.


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## vk7krj (Apr 2, 2019)

werowance, if it's any help to you (or others), here is a link to one of my web pages,

https://www.vk7krj.com/Petrol electric1.htm

 at the bottom of the page is a link to a downloadable spreadsheet I wrote that will calculate the various diameters needed for gear blanks. I mostly did it for the metric system, but it will also do imperial. I wrote it in Libre office, but there is an excel version there as well.

Ken, vk7krj


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## werowance (Apr 2, 2019)

Thank you vk7krj, ill take a look at it.


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## werowance (Apr 2, 2019)

I think my repair came out pretty good for my first time.  When Brian recommended "press fit" I cringed because sneaking up on that final .001 usually ends up either to big or to small every time for me.  so I thought about it and figured I would try a taper plug.  and on that I thought about the easiest way to do a taper plug and though why not use deflection to my advantage for a change.  I cut down some old cattle trailer tarp bar from I got from a buddy that was scrapping an old trailer.  the bar is the ones on top of a trailer that the tarp is streatched across.  any way i turned a piece about 2 or 2.5 inches long and as i was getting to the .250 the deflection was happening and i was getting a taper.  on small end i was about .254 and on big end i was about .2565 or .257 .  the plug started in and then i pressed it on in and with about as much preasure as i felt was safe not to cause damage to the part i stopped pressing.  i also used red high strength locktite.  after that was all dry and setup i went to the disk sander and for a few seconds on it then a dunk in water so as not to over heat it and ruin the locktite.  then the final little bit was done on my improvised surface plate with some 800 grit sand paper.  with the camera zoom you can see the repair however its very hard to even see with the regular eye.   thanks for the suggestion on how to do this Brian.

first pic is with it cut off and ready to start cleaning up.


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## werowance (Apr 8, 2019)

well what a week last week....it was a busy one.   this is all I got done since the repair.  2 gear blanks of the correct size and almost finished the piston.  I do plan on trying rings first fully expecting to have to fall back to an o-ring piston.  I'm also have a new grandson last week to. and spring has sprung here in Virginia - lots of yard work, mulch clearing old growth etc.  then lastly my back went out.   so guess what I'm saying is I really didn't get much in the way of the Webster build done but it was still a great week - so much new life happening.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 8, 2019)

Nice engine---Nice baby---Nice green grass. I still have a glacier in my front yard!!!


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## werowance (Apr 15, 2019)

we have gears this weekend!  I think I did all right on them.  next I think I need to start on the crank and rod.  still considering doing a ball bearing on it.  and on that note I have a question,  does anyone know how much clearance there is on the rod and the base of the engine where it connects to the crank shaft?  if I make the rod larger here to accommodate a ball bearing I am wondering if I will have enough clearance to make a full rotation without hitting the base or other things.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2019)

The gears look good. If I understand correctly what you are asking, you have tons of room.---Brian


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## werowance (Apr 15, 2019)

wow, yes I will have lots of room then looking at yours.  thanks for the pic.


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## werowance (Apr 15, 2019)

ok, ball bearings on order and working out the design for the crank,  in particular the lack of a counter balance.  I had considered doing a bolt on counter balance like the one I posted in Brian Rupnows thread that I had seen however if I just want to do a 1 piece setup would I start with a piece of 1.75 steel? (excuse the poor hand drawing)


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2019)

I strongly recommend that you don't even try to make this a one piece crankshaft. This type of crankshaft lends itself very well to being "built up" from three pieces of stock. The easiest way to make this is to buy an undersize reamer to do the holes in the plate. I would recommend a 0.001" undersize reamer.  Design your plate or flatbar section to have the shape of a counterweight. A little secret here--If you make the shafts from cold rolled steel, cold rolled comes in at 0.0005" undersize, which will give you an interference fit of 0.0005", which works quite well. If however, you buy drill rod, it comes in "on size" and will not fit thru a bearing of the same size, and gives a full .001" interference fit, which is almost too much. If you want, I can post a design for the counterweight section for you.---Brian


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## werowance (Apr 16, 2019)

i was going to do it in 3 pieces,  it was just the (I think its called "web") part with the 2 holes in it that I wanted to deviate from the drawings from.  in order to get the weight part built in the web in one piece (the plans just call for a rectangle piece) wouldn't I need at least a 1.75 piece of round stock to slice that out of?  now on the crs at .0005 under - that is something I didn't know and that is a very good tip.  thank you for that one.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 16, 2019)

You would make the web from steel plate, not round shafting. It can be cut to shape with a bandsaw or hacksaw and drilled/reamed on your mill. I don't recall what thickness the web is just off the top of my head, but choose a standard plate thickness. I would suggest making it from cold rolled steel flatbar, then you won't have mill scale to contend with. I just looked at the Webster drawings and see that they call up the web as being 0.219" thick with a .031" boss on one side of it. I would just use 1/4" plate with no boss and cut a washer out of .031" shim stock to provide the spacer which the boss currently does.


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## bill70j (Apr 17, 2019)

werowance said:


> ok, ball bearings on order and working out the design for the crank,  in particular the lack of a counter balance.  I had considered doing a bolt on counter balance like the one I posted in Brian Rupnows thread that I had seen however if I just want to do a 1 piece setup would I start with a piece of 1.75 steel? (excuse the poor hand drawing)


 
Nice job on your gears.

As far as the crankshaft  goes, I made it from three parts - and designed the counter balance (web) precisely per the dimensions shown in Brian's  message #47 of his Webster build log.

I started with 0.25" thick, 2" X 2" piece of piece of 1018 flat bar and first located and drilled the two holes for the pin and the shaft.  Then I band-sawed it to a 2" disc.

Next, I mounted the part on a mandrel and turned it to 1.82"D, then faced it to produce the 0.5"D X 0.031" boss.  Then I removed it from the mandrel and band-sawed/belt-sanded it to shape.

I assembled the three parts using soft silver solder.  In order to get good capillary action, I sized the two holes for loose slip fits.  So far, the solder has held.


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## werowance (Apr 17, 2019)

Thanks for the info on making the web.  curious why not use bar stock and part it off?  yes its easy enough to use plate but now I'm curious about is there a structural reason for it?

and I got the ignition cam made last night.


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## bill70j (Apr 17, 2019)

werowance said:


> Thanks for the info on making the web.  curious why not use bar stock and part it off?



Just because I didn't have any round stock that large.


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## werowance (Apr 17, 2019)

lol,  guess I was overthinking it.  thanks again.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 17, 2019)

Werowance--Making the web from plate or flatbar simply saves hour and hours of machining.--A note of caution here--The shafts which you will be pressing into the web plate.--Make them about 1/2" longer than they need to be, and slightly taper that last 1/2" in the lathe with sandpaper--not a machining operation. This taper will ensure that the shafts fit squarely into the plate and not at a slight angle. Press until the tapered portion of shaft sticks out beyond the far side of the web, then cut the tapered part off with a bandsaw or hacksaw.


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2019)

got a start on the crank web this weekend.  didn't have much time to work on it but so far so good.  just a tip to anyone doing chain drilling to get a part out of plate steel.  move the part to the corner so you don't have to chain drill the whole circle.  that hit me after I had already started.. oh well it all worked out....  on silver soldering I counter sunk the hole on the outside of the disk as well as put a 45 on the edge of the rod so as to make certain silver flowed over it all and had lots of surface area to adhere to.  not sure if it was necessary but I did it anyway.  I plan on leaving the bottom half of the circle on it for counter balance.

the plate was scrap anyway that was going to be trashed.  it had been test welded on in several places.  just some scrap someone left at my place when using my welder.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 23, 2019)

Time to buy a bandsaw guy. You can buy a used 16" vertical woodworkers bandsaw for under $200. By adding a jackshaft and second set of pulleys you can slow them down to the speed required for cutting metal.


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## bill70j (Apr 23, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Time to buy a bandsaw guy. You can buy a used 16" vertical woodworkers bandsaw for under $200. By adding a jackshaft and second set of pulleys you can slow them down to the speed required for cutting metal.


Also you might consider the ubiquitous HFT  4X6 Horizontal/Vertical metal cutting bandsaw, which you can get for just over $200 with a 20% off coupon.  IME, this is one of HFT's highest value tools, plus there's a Yahoo users' website with a number of great DIY upgrade ideas for that machine.

Or, if you already have a portaband, you could easily fabricate a SWAG-type table to use it as a fixed vertical machine.  You can get a nice HFT portaband on sale for $99, which is another great deal, if you don't have one.


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## werowance (Apr 24, 2019)

i actually have a bandsaw however this steel was very slow cutting that notch at top was cut by it.  I guess my blade is dull and that mystery steel wasn't very soft either.  but it all came together.  on another note the bearings for my rod came in.  advertised as .250 inner race but its not  its slightly smaller than .250.  a piece of drill rod wont go through nor will my best 1/4 inch drill or undersized reamer.  so guess ill have to get a refund on those and wait again until the replacements come in.  I want to cut the pin to just fit the bearing.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 24, 2019)

I warned you in an earlier post that drill rod comes in "on size" and won't fit thru a bearing of the same size. It is easy enough to remedy. Chuck it up in the lathe and use a strip of 200 grit sandpaper to work it down. You only have to take it down about .0005" to make it work.


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## werowance (Apr 24, 2019)

no its way off.  not even an undersized reamer will go through it or a 1/4 inch drill.  its just plain wrong.  I'm thinking they sent me metric.  for some reason I'm thinking that company uses orange seals to denote metric and blue to denote standard.  I may be wrong but seems to work out that way when I order from them. vxb bearings.  standard have always been blue and metric have always been orange but could just be a coincidence.  ill do a more accurate measure tonight with calipers but an undersized 1/4 inch reamer .2490 should have passed through correct?  it was way off even for that.  and the reamer shank is the same size as the cutting tip as well.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 24, 2019)

If you were sent the wrong bearings, then that is a whole different kettle of fish.


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## werowance (Apr 25, 2019)

took better measurements of the bearings last night.  advertised / what I was supposed to receive was R168-2RS .250"x .375"x .125" inch .  but what I actually have is .235 inside and .4725 outside I didn't bother measuring the width.  on the outside I changed to metric on my calipers and it came out 12mm on the dot.  anyway they issued a return label.  who knows how long it will take them to ship the right ones....
hopefully my stock will arrive before the weekend and maybe I can get to work on the flywheel.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 25, 2019)

Take heart Werowance. I have been trying for two weeks to get a 3/32" broach and Fastenal keeps screwing up the order. I phoned KBC tools this morning and they can have one here for me tomorrow.--Brian


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## werowance (Apr 25, 2019)

good news. tracking email shows I have a big chunk of round steel waiting at home for making a flywheel out of.


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## werowance (Apr 29, 2019)

no ball bearings this weekend but the flywheel stock did arrive.  advertised as scrap, and roughly 4" x 2" but really it was 4.5" x 2 3/4 " inches so a lot to remove but I'm not complaining.  usually its over estimated instead of underestimated so I'm happy about that.  it doesn't seem to be cold rolled and its definitely not stainless but it is a little bit hard.  leaving a good finish so far and the swarf is long and sharp not jagged but just sharp and comes off almost as blue as dykem but the parent stock doesn't get hot very fast at all just the swarf is - I probably need to slow down the cut but the finish is so nice I have stuck with that speed.  I got it down to 4x 1.35 roughly this weekend in between all the home jobs that needed doing.  do you think it might be "tool steel" of some sort?

oh and the swarf picture is not of the really long bits but the shorter pieces as I was cleaning up afterwards.  the long pieces (6 to 8 foot long) I was getting out after each pass for safety reasons


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 29, 2019)

It's probably a piece of 4140 steel. Much tougher than 1016 cold rolled but nice to work with. I used to order my flywheel stock about 3/16" longer than what I actually needed. Now my metal provider has a saw that is so accurate that I only add 1/16" to what I need. Saves me a lot of machining time.


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## werowance (May 1, 2019)

slowly but shurely I am getting the flywheel to size and have been thinking about the gear and how it is supposed to press fit and locktight to the flywheel.  I usually have problems getting a proper press fit and wonder if I end up with a sliding or just slightly tight fit will red high strength locktight be enough to hold the gear in place under the load of running?  was considering soldering it in place with the hard version of plumbers solder?  I don't want to silver braze it because I'm afraid the amount of heat to get the steel hot enough may also damage the teeth of the brass gear but figure I could "tin" both parts with solder and then bring them together?  but would like to know from those who do this often if they think the locktight will be enough or not before I get overly concerned.  locktight certainly would be easier to replace a gear if ever need be.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 1, 2019)

Press fits are one of those horrible things that you have to sneak up on very carefully. You will want about 0.0005 interference for your press fit. Since it appears that you already have the crankshaft gear, then the thing to sneak up on is the bore of the hole which your gear hub presses into. You are actually going about it backwards, as it is much easier to drill and ream the hole first, then machine the hub which presses into the hole to size. However, sometimes you can't do what I suggest, especially if it is a purchased gear. I use only #638 Loctite for all applications. It is horribly expensive, but a bottle lasts me for two or three years. Don't even consider trying to solder the gear to the flywheel.


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## werowance (May 7, 2019)

slowly getting there with it.  I believe I have a good fit for the press fit on the gear. it will just start going in (I actually got it stuck with finger preasure and thought I wouldn't get it back out)   these tool marks are difficult to remove on this steel.  time to flip it and do the other side.


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## werowance (May 14, 2019)

well I nearly finished the fly wheel when I had a little misshap.  the nut on the arbor came loose and it spun on me when drilling the holes.  oh well I was able to chuck it back up and take a light skim off to fix that.  2nd picture is I decided to paint the inside.  its  sandable primer (still wet) that's looking glossy.  I figured it would help hide the tool marks on the inside by painting it.


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## aka9950202 (May 14, 2019)

Use a matt finish it will hide blumishs. Gloss makes them stand out. 

Cheers, 
Andrew in Melbourne


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## Brian Rupnow (May 14, 2019)

I was wondering what had happened to you.--Haven't heard from you in a while. A little paint will hide a lot of sin!!--Brian


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## werowance (May 14, 2019)

sounds good.  I was sort of thinking about that black crinkle paint like you see on old timey pieces of indoor equipment.  cant think of any equipment ive seen with it right.  what do you think about that stuff?  here is an image off the internet of the finish I'm talking about


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## werowance (May 14, 2019)

Hi Brian,  yeah its been a tough couple of weeks.  but the garden is completely planted,  several trees cut down and pulled off, oil change and brakes done on my truck and all that...   I took of early from work yesterday and got some garage time.
I also made the pin for the crank shaft using your tip of emory cloth until it will just slide through the ball bearings I'm going to use on the piston rod.  I threaded the end and cut it off, I plan to use a nut to hold the rod on, ill silver braze the pin to the crank.   I had planned on finishing up the crank shaft while I had the rotary table out (makes it easy to chuck up) but then I had this misshap so I spent the rest of the evening re sanding and polishing out the tool marks again after making a skim cut to get the drill thrashing out....


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## minh-thanh (May 15, 2019)

I don't know if this helps or...
But I have a few times  do the same method
Lathe speed is slow and several times replace sandpaper


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## werowance (May 15, 2019)

Thanks Minh Thanh,  I actually took a very light skim cut to clean those swirl marks up.  but just the regular tool marks left from the carbide tools are still there.  although minute I got tired of sanding and wanted to try paint to see.  I think it will look good.   but the glue trick is something I had not thought of and is a very good idea


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## werowance (May 15, 2019)

marks like these are all I'm trying to hide now. very difficult to get in those corners.  the outside ring is pretty shiny and smoothe because it was so much easier to get sand paper on


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## minh-thanh (May 15, 2019)

I always use this sandpaper to flatten big scratch and then with 100, 150 sandpaper. if you want glossy: 400, 600 ...


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## werowance (May 16, 2019)

the wrinkle paint turned out pretty good I think


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## Brian Rupnow (May 16, 2019)

Werowance--I see where you are saying the "nut came loose on the arbor" causing the gouges in the face of your flywheel. Can you explain that a little more? Whenever I put holes in the flywheels I make, I set them directly on the mill table and hold them in place with toe clamps on opposite sides. If the relief in the sides of the flywheel is small and I am afraid of running my drill into the mill table when it breaks thru, then I put a 1/2" plate spacer between the flywheel and the mill table. I center the spindle over the flywheel bore and use ordinate dimensions to locate the x-y positions of the holes.


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## werowance (May 16, 2019)

i used an arbor like I would for say a slitting saw.  it was actually left over from making the gear for the flywheel. 
so on my rotary table I already had the er32 collet chuck mounted in it so I just grabbed that left over arbor which was the exact size needed and put the fly wheel on it and sinched down the nut (or kind of sinched it down) just like I did when making the gear on that same arbor.  then mounted it in the collet chuck on the rotary table.  once in the proper position I was drilling every 120 degrees.  (actually I didn't have a 3/4 drill but I did have a school surpless auction 3/4 inch end mill)  so that's what I used.  but I didn't have the nut tight on the end of the arbor so when the end mill touched it spun the flywheel.


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## werowance (May 16, 2019)

an arbor like this one,  I just removed the gear and put the fly wheel on.  it was actually the arbor for the small 24 tooth gear that I was using on the flywheel


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## Brian Rupnow (May 16, 2019)

When you are cutting a gear, it puts very little torque into the rotary table. When you turn the rotary table so the spindle is pointing up vertically and then drill a hole offset from the centerline, it puts a lot of torque into the rotary table. I don't know if you have a DRO on your mill to let you use X-Y coordinates for drilling like I do or not. in fact I can't remember how the flywheel holes were dimensioned on the original drawings or not.  EDIT---I just checked the original drawing and no ordinate dimensions are given, just the angle between the holes. Unless you have a softwear drawing package or are a geometry whiz, I can see where you had no choice but to do it with the rotary table.


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## werowance (May 17, 2019)

Thanks Brian,  to keep the angle preasure down I put the arbor all the way in the collet so the flywheel is actually resting against the collet.  sometimes if need be I will stack a few washers between collet and flywheel if there isn't enough room for break through vs damage to collet from the break through.  but not having it stick up in the air like the picture of me cutting the gear gives the fly wheel more support. so it doesn't want to lean when putting the down force of the drill on once side.   and I don't have a functioning dro.  I did purchase a cheap I-gauging dro a while back and it lasted about a month or so and was very inaccurate.  often it would jump 1 or 2 inches just by moving say 1/4 inch so I never trusted it but it finally just quit working all together.

getting along slowly with things -  something I was not looking forward to, the press fit of the gear to the flywheel,  well it went perfect.  maybe just a little bit to tight but the arbor press pushed it home.  I used that 638 locktight you recommended.  its like a gel instead of runny like the normal locktight I'm used to.  makes it a lot easier to apply.

but that's all the time I had for fun stuff last night.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 17, 2019)

That's a bit weird. My 638 Loctite is not a gel. It is runny.


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## werowance (May 20, 2019)

got the crank web done this weekend,  silver solder went every where on the rod dowel.  I was soldering from the back side and it ran over the end and onto the front side.  needle files and sand paper for an hour or so to clean it up on the front side..  wish I had more time in the shop but just couldn't get there with all the other things in life,  but had a good weekend.


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## ZebDog (May 20, 2019)

I don’t post much but I’ve been watch this build from the beginning and its looking good so far


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## werowance (May 21, 2019)

Thanks ZebDog. 

Brian here is the lock tight I'm using.  almost the consistency of superglue gel whereas I am used to just regular runny superglue.

also got a start on a piston rod list night.  not much done.  but at least a start.


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## deverett (May 21, 2019)

Tip for silver soldering:
To prevent the solder going where you don't want it to go, use an ordinary lead pencil and rub it on the 'clean' areas before fluxing.  The solder will not stick to the pencil rubbed areas.
The old solvent based Tippex did the same job, don't know about the water based stuff.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## Cogsy (May 21, 2019)

According to the figures given on the loctite spec sheet for 638 its consistency should fall somewhere between detergent and shampoo at 25 degree C.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 22, 2019)

Yes Werowance--same stuff I use.---Brian


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## werowance (May 29, 2019)

finished up the rod and nut for the crank pin.  not the best looking rod in the world but accurate where it counts.  also on the nut, It has a "design feature"  in it.  its tight like a nylock nut or a deformed rocker arm nut on a old chevy 350 to keep it from backing off.  this actually was not intended and I believe it to be caused by the die I used.  it was an American Vermont from I believe lowes die and a hex shaped one.  I have heard something to the effect that most hex dies are for thread cleaning or thread repairing and not direct cutting.  it cut the threads with ease but are tight.  the tap I used (I tried 2 different ones, one taper and one bottom) which are for sure made for thread cutting both would go in and out of the nut with ease.  but the nut is tight on the threads and after I thought about it,  hey design feature,  so it wont back off so easily.  on the tip of the nut it has a neck cut on it so as to only hit the inner race of the ball bearings.  will have to make a washer for the other side of the bearings.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 29, 2019)

Looking really good!!---Brian


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## werowance (May 30, 2019)

ok, starting on the exhaust cam now.  this is my first cam ive made and I have over the years read and watched different approaches to making cams.  I am thinking about the technique in this thread:

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/webster-engine-cam-question.23225/

and then I have a question about that thread,  in the picture below  the 2 flats marked in blue.  are they really flat?  if so that will be great,  once I get the .562 cut down then it will be a straight shot to the tip or lobe of the cam right.  in other words work back and fourth between 162 and 18 degrees until the bottom is half is .562 then rotate to 162 deg and pull until I reach the top and the flat should be done on that side right?  repeat for other side.

I have read about offset turning as well as using the boring head and out of the 3 ways the post above is the way I would feel most comfortable with doing as long as I am reading it right.

I will start with a .712 dia rod so that the lobe has the .356 radius called for in the plans


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## Brian Rupnow (May 30, 2019)

Yes--They can be complete flats, making it a very easy cam to make. As a rule of thumb--if the cam follower is a round wheel or a lever, they can be true flats. If the cam rides against a flat tappet, there is a danger that each time the cam rotates the flat on the cam will "smack" against the flat bottom of the cam and cause problems.---Brian


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## werowance (May 30, 2019)

great, then I have a plan.  hope to get some shop time tonight


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## Cogsy (May 30, 2019)

The boring head method leaves the flanks curved rather than flat and is a very simple procedure. Once the first plunge cut is done, each subsequent cut only takes a tiny 'nibble' so can be done very fast. For single lobe cams it's the only method I use and gives a great result.


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## bill70j (May 31, 2019)

Cogsy said:


> The boring head method leaves the flanks curved rather than flat and is a very simple procedure. Once the first plunge cut is done, each subsequent cut only takes a tiny 'nibble' so can be done very fast. For single lobe cams it's the only method I use and gives a great result.


Agree.  This is the method I used since it seemed pretty straight forward.  I used Brian's write-up as a guide,  but rather than running the boring head in reverse, I made a right-hand boring bar and ran the boring head CW.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 31, 2019)

The cam looks a bit prettier with rounded flanks, but trust me--it is not necessary on the Webster.  For a cam like the Webster needs it is perfectly okay to make a cam with flat sides, and is considerably less work.--However--If you do use a cam with rounded flanks, the engine will run just as well.---Brian


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## werowance (May 31, 2019)

Thanks guys,  the reason I am shying away from the boring head is because I am not comfortable with using the boring head yet.  i just cant seem to wrap my head around how to measure where my start cut is (aka like i would find using an edge finder or an end mill and cigarette paper) and then how far i am tramming it over.  i really need more practice with the boring head.   i had watched Mr. Fellows youtube video of making a cam several times before i understood what he was doing but I'm just more comfortable with a plain old end mill right now.


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## werowance (Jun 4, 2019)

cam making turned out good this weekend.  and just got a start on the rocker arm last night.


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## werowance (Jun 7, 2019)

help please.  im still working on this rocker arm and its junk now. I cant upload pics from this pc but I have struggled with the drawings of this part all week.  for some reason to me it seems every thing is drawn backwards and then there are some things that I think should show the dimensions but don't.   then if I try to calculate the difference its at least .001 off one way or the other.  when I show my miss cut it is way more than that  but its just because I am struggling with the layout. 

so  help.  if anyone has redrawn this part with more dimensions or anything could I please get a copy or a screen shot.  sometimes just seeing it with all the measurements  or redrawn really helps.


and thanks in advance.

edit- looking at the post above,  its everything to the right of the center hole that I cant seem to get layed out properly


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## bigearl91 (Jun 8, 2019)

werowance said:


> help please.  im still working on this rocker arm and its junk now. I cant upload pics from this pc but I have struggled with the drawings of this part all week.  for some reason to me it seems every thing is drawn backwards and then there are some things that I think should show the dimensions but don't.   then if I try to calculate the difference its at least .001 off one way or the other.  when I show my miss cut it is way more than that  but its just because I am struggling with the layout.
> 
> so  help.  if anyone has redrawn this part with more dimensions or anything could I please get a copy or a screen shot.  sometimes just seeing it with all the measurements  or redrawn really helps.
> 
> ...



Hello mate,

Have you tried modelling this up in CAD yourself? I only ask as this always helps me when I can't get my head around a 2D drawing. 

You can query any dimension then, and always go back to take another look at any point.

Cheers
Earl


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 8, 2019)




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## bill70j (Jun 8, 2019)

I struggled for a while with the drawing also.  

From the top view of Brian's drawing you notice that the squared end of the rocker arm is offset from the centerline of the cam end shaft in the direction  away from the frame.  That seemed wrong to me.  Nevertheless, I built the rocker arm per the drawing and lined up the squared end of the rocker arm with the valve stem by adjusting the width of the rocker arm spacer.


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## werowance (Jun 8, 2019)

thank you very much.  that's exactly what I was needing.  I was so agrivated last night about the mess up.  maybe I can  get one made this weekend.   I really appreciate it Brian.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 8, 2019)

When I built my Webster, I modelled it all in Solidworks.  Sometime over the years I had a computer crash and lost all the Webster files. It took me about five minutes to open the original Webster plans and make a model and drawing of the rocker arm. I'm glad I could help.


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## werowance (Jun 10, 2019)

i really appreciate that Brian.  I don't have any cad software and you saved my weekend.  finally got it done Sunday night.

as promised picture of the failed one and then the final good one thanks to Brians drawings.  this is actually rocker arm 3.0   and if you count the number of times I had to wipe off the dykem and redo then its rocker arm 25.0   I had a time with it until I finally figured out I was subtracting .063 instead of adding it like I should have at the tappet head.  rocker arm 2.0 was just simply cut to short right off the bat.

I need to read some of the posts about the screw that holds it to the side support.  wondering if it needs to be a shoulder screw or what?  ill take a look and see what others did on their builds.

bad one:





and good one 3.0


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## werowance (Jun 10, 2019)

so the plans call for a ss screw for the tappet tip to hit the valve.  I'm wondering on that.  wouldn't brass be more desired for smacking the valve tip?  I ask because I believe I have some teeny tiny brass hex stock that should work well for that.
and then on that note.  the plans don't call for it and I don't see it on other builds but how is everyone holding adjustment on that?  a jam nut on the bottom, deformed threads, thread lock...etc.?

I was thinking jam nut


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 10, 2019)

Open that 0.089" hole out and thread for a #6-32 or a #5-40 socket head capscrew. Grind most of the head away on the capscrew, just leave enough that you can still engage the hex with a hex wrench. Screw it thru the tapped hole and put a common hex nut on the far side.  It doesn't need to be a jam nut. For the pivot hole, use a #5-40 or #6-32 socket head capscrew. Buy a longer one that is only threaded part way up the shank. Do some careful measuring and possibly a bit of threading on the bolt itself. You can make it so that the rocker arm rides on the unthreaded part. Use a bit of Loctite on the threads to keep it from backing out of the sideplate when the engine runs.


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## werowance (Jun 11, 2019)

last night I opted to just have some fun in the shop so I decided to experiment on the rocker arm spring.  I had saved a recoil spring from a Harbor freight Honda clone that I had to replace a while back and saved the spring.  it was a little bit narrow per plans and also thick however I understand this is just fine but I also had a broken bandsaw blade that I wanted to see how it would work out.  so I ground the teeth off of a short piece of the blade and then to the belt sander to bring on down to final dimensions.  for thining it I tried flat sanding it but it would fling out under the guard so I just held the end of it and used the tip of the belt sander back and fourth saping out ends every little bit.  lots of back and fourth dunking in water so as not to over heat it.  in the end I had a piece about .018 thick  which is a little thicker than spec but seemed springy (technical term) and then I bent it around a piece of .250 rod I had to make the radius.  still have to drill the hole but other than that it turned out nice.  so a good use of scrap bandsaw blades.  and I had fun.


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## werowance (Jun 12, 2019)

dipped it in some very well used ferric chloride to give it some color.  a little copper deposited on it as well but it came out a nice dark color.  looked almost black once I oiled it.  and the copper doesn't show up hardly at all after some rubbing with oil.


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## Bill Lawson (Jun 13, 2019)

I am also building a Webster in my down south mode (IE Michigan winters).  Looking at Brian's and your build has 
given me ideas and answered questions about my build.  I have always had a problem with cutting fins or even parting
parts off with a cut off tool (lathe too wimpy).  My solution has been to mount a 4 jaw chuck on a rotary table and cut
the grooves with a proper thickness milling cutter held in a arbor.


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## werowance (Jun 13, 2019)

i have also seen it done similar on a rotary table except using a slitting saw.


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## werowance (Jun 17, 2019)

this weekend didn't produce very many parts.  the tiller broke down - front input shaft bearing failed and put a roller into the gears which took most of my weekend.  still waiting on a seal before I can complete the repair on that.   but here is what I did get done.
used a piece of 260 (I think that's harder than 360?) brass thick walled tube that I had left over from another project (if the tube looks bent - its because it is.  it was just some scrap in my tool box).  I band saw cut 2 thin sections  one for a spacer and one for a washer.  both were finished up on a improvised surface plate and fine sandpaper.  that washer was super thin.  I also ordered my self a new tool.  a 7/8 oversized er-32 collet.  wanted one for a while now and I think it will come in handy for finishing up the piston.


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## werowance (Jun 18, 2019)

i didn't have a 6-32 or a 5-40 shcs but what I do have is about 35 ft of 3/8 stainless steel rod that was given to me.  so what I did was turned it down a bit, knurled it and made the tappet screw out of that. figured the knurl would be easy to hold with fingers when tightening up the nut on the bottom.  made it a bit longer than plans but I will cut the extra threads off on final assembly.  I know it wasn't much but at least a part was made last night.


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## CFLBob (Jun 18, 2019)

(This is just a comment so that HMEM updates me when the thread updates)

I like the screw!  Good idea.  I don't have any stainless rod and was going to just order some 6-32 SHCS from Bolt Depot or someone.  

On the spacer and washer, I have some 1/4" brass rod here I've had for a long time.  I was just going to part off the two pieces on my micro lathe.  Hadn't thought of the homemade surface plate idea.


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## werowance (Jun 18, 2019)

the scrap piece of brass I had was deformed on one end so would have been difficult chuck up for parting off.  but bandsaw and rolling the brass with the cut worked well.  my homemade surface plate this time is just a piece of marble floor tile.  I often use a piece of glass to for that to,  I know its not the most accurate surface plate but it works well for me.


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## werowance (Jun 19, 2019)

started cutting out the valve blocks last night.  I want to glue them all together and cut them like that.  I'm wondering, normally I would use red high strength locktight to do it but wonder if this new 638 locktight would be better to glue them together for cutting (new to me)?  I'm getting into the parts I sort of was not looking forward to.  valve cutting and finishing up the piston....


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 19, 2019)

Can't advise you on that one. I have never had luck gluing parts together to hold temporarily while I perform any kind of work on them. After having things come unglued right in the middle of operations a couple of times, I quit doing that. Now I weld the pieces together or bolt them together.


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## werowance (Jun 19, 2019)

ok, ill go with the  red tried and true tonight


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## werowance (Jun 27, 2019)

so im on vacation this week and have ate more bbq beef and pork than most hogs and cows have in their life .  but all I have managed to get done is hog out to much off the valve block stack.  so tonight I got started on a new stack and hope tomorrow I have some progress.  also got that tiller all back together and the garden back in better shape.  zucchini squash lettuce and onions for dinner tonight.  had to get rid of the meat sweats.  its been a great week.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 27, 2019)

Zucchini is a communist plot!!


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## CFLBob (Jun 27, 2019)

werowance said:


> so im on vacation this week and have ate more bbq beef and pork than most hogs and cows have in their life



That's because cows and hogs are vegetarian and don't eat bbq!  But seriously, if you want to talk barbecue, we need to open another conversation elsewhere.  It's one of my main hobbies these days.  

Zucchini is OK if you hollow one out and fill it with pulled pork.


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## almega (Jun 28, 2019)

Sure, if you then throw the zucchini away.


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## werowance (Jul 1, 2019)

throw away the zucchini,  lol yep that's sounds about right.     got a good start on the block with no mistakes on this one yet....


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## werowance (Jul 3, 2019)

got the center block done.  now I have a question on the top and bottom blocks.  looking at the plans, the hole drilled into the side through the brass valve guides after being pressed in looks to be very close to where the valve seat will be.  those who have built this engine, did you see the same thing or is there plenty of room?  if not then I was thinking drilling slightly smaller for that just to be safe.
then on the next subject ,  I believe it was Bob who mentioned his counter sincs left sort of a chater mark finish and I wanted to point out that mine do the same.  first I thought it was just because I was using my drill press to do the counter sinc but this time I used the mill with everything tight and the finish was the same.  just curious if there is a technique to prevent this or if it is just the type of countersink I am using.  waiting on my 1" 2-56 screws to arrive so right now I just have a couple 1/2 long screws in there to keep the top block aligned.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 3, 2019)

Just like this---


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## werowance (Jul 3, 2019)

oh, I see now.  the drill cant hit the seat.  that's good.  thank you for the 3d of it.


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## Cogsy (Jul 4, 2019)

It's been a while since I used my countersinks but they certainly never left a chattery finish like that. I haven't got any pics handy but from memory the countersink holes don't show any chatter at all.


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## CFLBob (Jul 4, 2019)

Since nobody else spoke up, here's my big countersunk hole in the base plate.   I'm using the Irwin countersinks that werowance links to in post #14. 
The smaller countersinks leave the same rippled appearance.






This is a different countersink from the small one, so it's not the cutter itself, but I don't see how it could be.  I thought if it was chatter to increase the speed of the cutter so I doubled the speed of my drill press.  No effect - neither better or worse.  Since it's a manual drill press with far too much slop in it, I thought it might be that until I saw the pic above.  I don't have a solution for this, but maybe a grinding point?


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## werowance (Jul 5, 2019)

yep that's what mine looks like to.  I'm also using Irwin.


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## werowance (Jul 5, 2019)

and I came to a stopping point yesterday.  I don't have a .094 reamer to do the valve guides so I am ordering one today.  might switch over to finish up the piston this weekend.  but did mange to get the aluminum pieces of the valve blocks done with the exception of the intake or exauhst hole drilled after pressing in the valve guides/seats


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## ChrisH (Jul 5, 2019)

CFLBob said:


> Since nobody else spoke up, here's my big countersunk hole in the base plate.   I'm using the Irwin countersinks that werowance links to in post #14.
> The smaller countersinks leave the same rippled appearance.
> 
> View attachment 110048
> ...



Sometimes a slow speed & plenty pressure works out (?)


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## werowance (Jul 8, 2019)

ok, so I'm on hold for a few days until my reamer arrives.  I switched over to the piston and drill/reaming on it and found out that it also has the same size hole to ream as the valve guide so now its on hold.  all I can do now is either start looking at making a gas tank or start working on an ignition setup which leads me to a few questions.

1. on this engine if I use a traxxas carb,  should the fuel tank be slightly lower than the carb?  and if so about how much lower?

2. for a coil I was planning on just borrowing the 12 v coil from my farmall tractor but I saw a post about using a coil pack from a car.  I just don't remember where to find the post and I also don't remember if they recommended a 2 or 3 wire coil pack.  so was just wondering if anyone has used a coil pack and if so what model car/truck did it come from?  they at usually about 15.00 to 20.00 the last time I had to buy one for my wifes car, guess it just depends on what you are working on but figured a coil pack would be smaller and for the price not worth taking mine off my tractor if I can find one that will work with the points setup.

and when I say "coil pack" I'm referring to the cars that have a coil per each cylinder,  the post I saw they had cut all the extra rubber off and such which left a very small coil


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 8, 2019)

On a traxxas carb, or any other carb, the top of the fuel tank should be about 1/2" to 1'"below the centerline of the carburetor. These carbs have no needle and seat and float to shut the fuel off, and if any part of the fuel tank is above the centerline of the carburetor it will flood constantly and let all your fuel run out onto the table top.
I use a full size 12 volt coil from an automobile to run all of my i.c. engines except for one. I have no experience with individual coil packs.


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## werowance (Jul 8, 2019)

i found the thread,  ford van cop coil - 2 wire.  I ordered one for a 2008 econoline for 8.00 shipped.  also picked up the wire pigtail.  will test and see what I get out of it when I receive it.  reamer should arrive by Friday I hope.


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## werowance (Jul 9, 2019)

started on a gas tank last night.  found a piece of 1.5 brass square tube and some used bronze bushings that were given to me for the end plates.  I split the bushing and heated it and flattened it in the press.  will either take a skim cut with the mill or use the belt sander to even it up a little more.  but first I will see if this stuff will soft solder.  read somewhere that it wouldn't but I'm thinking since its high content of copper it really should.


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## werowance (Jul 11, 2019)

reamers arrived and I have an almost complete piston,  still gotta make the brass oil tube and press it in but other than that its done.  not real pleased with the the oval in  back side,  for some reason when I drilled then used an end mill to flatt bottom it,  It egged out in the center a little.  oh well the rod has full back and fourth motion so that's what counts.


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## CFLBob (Jul 11, 2019)

Good looking piston, where it matters.  

What reamers did you have to get?  Was it for this?  (Cylinder/piston - 7/8")

I'm shopping for a 3/4" reamer right now - I'm putting ball bearings in the side plates that don't match any drill bits I have.   Might as well order them now, if I need 'em.


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## werowance (Jul 11, 2019)

the reamer is for 2 places.  one in the piston and same size used in the valve guides  .094  the piston doesn't say ream but the guides do specify it.


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## CFLBob (Jul 11, 2019)

Ah!  Thanks! 

I haven't ordered my 3/4" reamer yet, so I can get them both on one order.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 11, 2019)

Werowance---what are you doing for piston rings?


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## Mechanicboy (Jul 11, 2019)

Werowance, you can make D-bit reamer to ream the hole in the valvehouse for valve.  Google D-bit reamer..


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## werowance (Jul 11, 2019)

i actually have made dbit reamers and use them but that's a tiny one and was only 1.00 to purchase a pack of 5 of the same size.   for piston rings, the plans give an outdated website.  www.ringspacers.com is his new url but its the same guy,  I think you ordered some for your new egine from the same guy Brian.  I did have to polish mine a bit as well.    Dave Reed is his name and they cost me 14.50 US shipped.  here is the guys new contact info - again same guy listed on the plans just new domain name


Dave Reed 
Otto Gas Engine Works 
2167 Blue Ball Road 
Elkton MD 21921-3330 USA 
phone 410-398-7340 
http://www.ringspacers.com 
http://www.pistonrings.net

thanks
Werowance


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 11, 2019)

Werowance--Can you expand on that a bit please. What part of the ring did you polish and how much, and did you do anything else to the rings--Have you installed them yet? The recommended piston groove is .094" (3/32") wide x 0.075" deep. Did you use that size for your ring grooves on the piston and were the rings difficult to install on the piston.--Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 12, 2019)

I just got an answering email from the man who makes the rings

Hi Brian-
The rings were never heat treated and do not need it.     They are finished and ready to use not requiring more machining unless you want to open up the end gap more than they already are.    Install the rings and go.
Thanks,
Dave Reed
Otto Gas Engine Works
2167 Blue Ball Road
Elkton MD 21921-3330 USA
phone 410-398-7340
http://www.ringspacers.com
http://www.pistonrings.net


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## werowance (Jul 12, 2019)

i simply lightly polished them with some 1200 grit sand paper on a surface plate,  just a few swipes is all it took.  I then cut my ring grooves by grinding a parting tool and testing on a test piece first until the ring would fit and feel like I'm used to feeling on a briggs and Stratton piston.  then I used that ground parting tool to cut the real grooves.


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## werowance (Jul 12, 2019)

question on the rod/wrist pin.  I'm not seeing any spacers to prevent the rod from sliding side to side.  and on a briggs and Stratton or at least the ones I have seen the rod can slide side to side inside the piston a little.  is this ok for the Webster or should I put a washer on each side to center it and prevent any side to side slide?


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 12, 2019)

Leave clearance so the rod can move a bit side to side in the piston. The piston is positioned by the cylinder bore. The rod is supposed to be positioned by the crankshaft it sets in, and the crankshaft is positioned by the frame it sets in. If thinks are not all 100% perfectly square, the rod may want to move side to side a bit at the piston.


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## werowance (Jul 15, 2019)

didn't have any shcs in 4-40 size so I used set screws instead,  also have not yet cut the flats on the wrist pin but will do that when I switch my combo lathe/mill back to milling, and I made the little teeny tiny oil tube 3 times.  first 2 I dropped and the shop gremlins hid them.  made sure to hang on tight to the third one.  in order to get a good press fit on it I used a broken end mill ground to a point and just gently tapped the end of the tube and swelled it out a little which gave it a very tight press fit into the piston.


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## werowance (Jul 17, 2019)

started on the valve guides.  first one I ruined right at the end so I had to start over.  about 3 hours to get this one guide done.  once I pressed it in I put it on the surface plate with some 1200 grit sand paper to bring the brass down flush to the aluminum using blue dye to see when I was flush.  on the spring i have a kit and one of them is the right number of turns and size however the wire is .019 and the plans call for .013 music wire.  do you think .019 will be to big for the intake side?


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 17, 2019)

Werowance--I find that when it comes to valve springs, try it and see. The intake spring has to be strong enough to pull the valve closed but weak enough to let engine vacuum pull it open. If you can't get satisfaction with .019 wire, then go to a smaller wire size.---Brian


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## werowance (Jul 18, 2019)

thought I would try to make a valve last night - didn't have time to finish but I got a start on it.  I had read how brian handles the deflection on making the valve stem and that's also how I do it a lot of times when I cant support then end or the span is to long and the stock is to thin to get an accurate cut.  but last night I decided to try an improvised tool post grinder.  a small pencil air rotary tool kind of like an air powered dremel tool.  it fit just right in the boring bar holder I got in a kit of axa tool post accessories a while back.  I was only able to take very light cuts with it but it works. after I cut the stainless rod I had down to where I was getting a lot of deflection I switched over to the air tool and evened it back up and got the same measurement near the chuck as I got at the end of the stock.  still have cut it down more.  also I am trying to keep the grit off my lathe way with paper towels down and wiping them down frequently.  but on that note,  doesn't everyone use emory cloth to clean up a part before unchucking it?  wouldn't that grit be about the same?  just a thought on that, ill still keep the paper towels down just in case.


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## werowance (Jul 23, 2019)

well after 3 attempts at making a valve - all ended in failure.  the tool post grinder did the best but it still failed.  the shaft of the grinder is just to wobbly and not accurate at all.  also is under powered so that's a bust as well.  I tried with a piece of stock long enough to use a live center and support the tail stock.  that failed to.  although it was the 2nd best go at it.  worst was unsupported and trying to get rid of deflection with files and emory cloth.  now all that said I started looking for a better toolpost grinder - something I have wanted for a while now anyway.  I found this:





I contacted the person who makes them and he says he still makes them, but hes on vacation this week so when he gets back he will give me a proper quote and such and hopefully this will do a better job if I buy it.  was wondering if anyone has used this model of grinder?  looks a lot beefier than my little pencil grinder does.  and the price on the old ebay listing was right to.  but that was about a year old ebay listing.  hopefully the price will still be the same...


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## werowance (Jul 23, 2019)

and am also considering a different material than stainless steel for the valve.  any thoughts on that?


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## Cogsy (Jul 23, 2019)

I use drill rod/silver steel for IC valves. Cuts easy and leaves a good finish. I cut the valve stem to +0.01mm in roughly 10mm steps until I have the length I need then polish the stem with a bit of emery to size in under a minute. I make a seat cutter for each set of valves I make from one of the valve blanks, so I know the seat angle perfectly matches the valves (I don't have a 1 degree difference between seat and valve). The finish on the valves is good enough that lapping in by hand (into brass valve cages) takes only a minute or two per valve, and I only use standard toothpaste as an abrasive. This works for me and I always get a good enough seal to start the engine.


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## minh-thanh (Jul 24, 2019)

werowance !
More information, with body valve and valve guide, *making fit is best*, but  bit  larger tolerances don't matter. The important   is  the valve surface must be closed to the valve seat surface
This is an my old engine, I often use it to test: carburetor, piston material ..... It always runs with me


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## werowance (Jul 24, 2019)

thanks guys,  yeah I was considering silver steel.  good to know that's ok to use.   did you all have any opinion on that tool post grinder I am considering purchasing?


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 24, 2019)

I have always used plain cold rolled steel for my valves, and have never had an issue. Before considering any kind of grinder for your lathe, make sure it can be mounted at various angles. The valve stem doesn't need to have a ground finish. Just plain, sharp  HSS tooling and a bit of 220 grit sanding strip is all that the valve stem requires. The only part of the valve that would benefit from grinding would be the angled portion of the face that contacts the seat. If your grinder can't be positioned to do that, you are wasting your money.


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## Mechanicboy (Jul 24, 2019)

I never used the tool post grinder on lathe..
It's not difficult to make smooth and true valve stem. Use wet and dry sand paper #200 to adjust the valve stem to be true in length and diameter (check with micrometer between work) and #600-800 for finish surface.

In my engine,  the valve is made of stainless steel.


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## werowance (Jul 25, 2019)

i had success using regular steel.  or really not sure what steel it is, just that it cuts great and is the slide rods out of the scan bed of a large copy machine from work.  I have a few more left and they cut almost like 12l14, have a nickel tint to the steel like stainless and doesn't deflect or spring very much.  a magnet will stick to it.  using the file and emory cloth method I am used to for unsupported stock to get any defelction out.  like others above have described.  ill get the 2nd valve cut and then ill make the britenellie seat cutter before moving my compound.  I left some handle material on the end so I can lap it easily into the seat then ill part that off.


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## Mechanicboy (Jul 25, 2019)

Look better.. when running the engine, lubricate the valve stem before use. It keep tight with oil when the fuel/air is sucking into the cylinder under start up.


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## werowance (Jul 25, 2019)

yep it does look better than the stainless steel ones I did.  all of those failed.   happen to have a pic of one of the failures


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## werowance (Jul 25, 2019)

and as you can see by the grain of even the larger portion of both valves  the stainless just does not cut very good for me. but I'm off that boat now and on the good cutting steel boat


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## Mechanicboy (Jul 25, 2019)

Don't use the cemented carbide tools for the small and detailed works due not sharp enough. Use HSS tool when turning in the thin material and keep high revolution + very light cut and low feed. Keep HSS sharp with some stroke with diamond hand grinder some time between work. To create smooth surface --> rounded nosed tool. Also not fault with the material, fault selected tool only.


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## Ghosty (Jul 26, 2019)

These are valves I machine out of 316SS, They have a 3/8" dia head and a 1/8" stem, use stainless steel T/C cutters and have no problem. I was given a box of 1000 316SS 7/16x2" bolts with damaged threads(not formed correctly) good for making small parts.
Cheers
Andrew


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## werowance (Jul 26, 2019)

Mechanicboy said:


> Don't use the cemented carbide tools for the small and detailed works due not sharp enough. Use HSS tool when turning in the thin material and keep high revolution + very light cut and low feed. Keep HSS sharp with some stroke with diamond hand grinder some time between work. To create smooth surface --> rounded nosed tool. Also not fault with the material, fault selected tool only.




rounded nosed tool.  I can grind different cutters in hss the standard square tip is the most common shape I use sort of has and angle in all directions - the one in most teaching books as your first hss tool grind.  it cuts at a sharp point.  but on the round nosed tool. that description could be interpreted differently.  so by chance do you have  a picture of the tip you are talking about?   also the soft steel is leaving a very nice smoothe finish with my insert cutting tool so I am good with that for what I am doing right now but would like to learn and try what you are talking about on as well.


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## werowance (Jul 26, 2019)

this is the square tip I was talking about,  found a pic on the net of it


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## Mechanicboy (Jul 26, 2019)

See at the table for lathe tool in angles. There is recommended angles for stainless steel. 
https://smithy.com/machining-reference/lathe-turning/page/1

I'm using the left hand finishing with small rounded nose.


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## werowance (Jul 29, 2019)

almost finished up on the valves this weekend.  one is cut to length - no photo.  made the valve seat cutting tool and it worked well.  ground them in with 800 grit laping compound.  all seems to fit really well.


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## werowance (Aug 5, 2019)

id like to talk springs this morning please.  so for my question,  all springs are made of the same gauge wire from the same spool but here are my variables / questions.
1. is a spring with fewer turns per inch stronger or weaker?  I think weaker however I wonder if the pitch or angle of a fewer turns per inch spring might actually make it stronger?
2. if a spring is wound smaller (smaller mandrell that its wrapped around) is it stronger or weaker.  example both springs 1 inch long,  both 15 turns per inch but the 2 mandrells the were made on are 1/2 and 1/4 inch  wouldn't the 1/4 inch be considered softer or weaker than the 1/2 inch our would it be the same?

reason I ask is I am considering cutting and then streaching out a spring for the intake to make it much weaker than the exhaust  I also have a slightly smaller diameter spring that will fit as well.  but the wire guage is the the same.


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## CFLBob (Aug 5, 2019)

I can't answer that, but I sure hope someone else does. 

The only theory I know about springs is Hooke's law and spring constants.  That ignores the things in your question.


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## Mechanicboy (Aug 5, 2019)

Read this about spring etc..  http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf


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## werowance (Aug 6, 2019)

Thanks Mechnicboy,  here is what I took from that,  copy and pated below

*
General Principles

*
There are three basic principles in spring design:

· The heavier the wire, the stronger the spring.

· The smaller the coil, the stronger the spring.

· The more active coils, the less load you will have to apply in order to get it to


move a certain distance.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 6, 2019)

Werowance--I'm not certain where you are, but if you are near or in any mid size city, there will be two or three industrial fastener outlets that have selections of compression springs at a very reasonable price. I buy them from Brafasco, or Fastenall, or Bolts Plus here in Barrie. The springs cost from $3 to $5 each, and can be bought individually. You will need springs with an inside diameter of at least 3/16" to fit over your valve guides. Don't even think about using the same diameter spring wire for both exhaust and intake valves. There is enough heartache involved in starting a new engine without making your own problems. Try and match the wire diameter given in the Webster plans.---Brian


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## Carl Reinhard (Aug 6, 2019)

re post #177, on building a Webster:   _I have had the best results using a single flute counter sink, but can still produce chatter.  Better parts can be produced, especially if using a drill press, by letting the part float on top of the vice i.e. the part will be caught from rotating by the edge  of vise jaw.  Slow the rpm's down, even to the point of pulling a lathe or drill  chuck through  by hand.  
Carlos_


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## werowance (Aug 7, 2019)

Thanks Brian and Carl,   Brian on the springs I think I have come up with a workable combination.  the exhaust spring is larger in guage of wire and size and is stiff.  the intake is smaller dia and gauge and a little shorter to.  its pretty soft.  if it doesn't work out I will have to recut my keepers.  now on the note of keepers I changed the design just a bit. I recessed the area where the cross pin would sit so that it will retain it.  but the overall working length will still be the same,  just brought up the side so it would hold the pin in place.   now on the cross drill of the valves.  I have had a time with that.  my vblock with the clamp wont clear my chuck for the #60 drill to cross drill it.  what I ended up doing and it worked very well was to put a drop of lock tight on it while in the vblock and left it clamped over night to dry.  then removed the clamp and the valve held in place just fine for the cross drill.  most of the lock tight chipped away with my finger nails then from the tip (where a rocker arm would hit) I lightly tapped it just like a rocker arm would tap it and it came right out.  was concerned about deforming it but it didn't take any work at all to remove it and all came out well.  have to get started on the other one tonight. 
man that little .040 hole is tiny,  I cant even focus my eyes on it.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2019)

I generally drill that small cross hole while the "handle" is still on the valve. Put the "handle between the vice jaws with the end of the valve sticking out past the jaws. Then I use my electronic edge finder to position the mill quill exactly where I want it to be, use a very small center drill to start the hole, then drill it. If you look over on my "vertical hit and miss" thread you will see a solution I came up with to hold the valve after the handle had been cut off.---Brian


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## werowance (Aug 8, 2019)

very good idea,  and I do remember seeing how you held the stock with sort of a busing with a slit in the side which was a very good idea.  wish I had thought of that before hand.  especially drilling it before parting off the rest of the stock.


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## werowance (Aug 12, 2019)

had a semi productive weekend.  finished up the valve blocks,  cross drill of the last valve almost ended in disaster,  bit broke right as it broke through the other side.  fortunately it broke through enough so that I could push it back out the way it came.  then since I had a broken bit,  I used the shaft as the cross pin for both valves.  so it still had a purpose.  then I cut and sized all the bushings and washers needed to align everything then assembled almost the whole engine.  things left to do - lap cylinder, make muffler and carb adapter, put together ignition and then time the engine.   I need to re-read on how others pinned or set screwed the fly wheel and set timing as well as how the muffler and carb adapter were held in place - either press fit or lock tight etc...

here are some pics of the valve block first one with broken tip drill bit


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2019)

Here's a hint. Put gaskets between those three individual pieces or you're going to go crazy figuring out why your engine won't run. Find a thin gasket material, A cornflakes box is .022" thick, and it works. You can't use any liquid goop as a gasket because it squeezes out and screws up your valves.


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## CFLBob (Aug 12, 2019)

Good looking work, werowance.


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## werowance (Aug 12, 2019)

thanks for the tip Brian.  we used to use tide soap boxes for gasket material as well.


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## werowance (Aug 12, 2019)

I have been doing some reading on how to cam time this thing and its 15deg Bbdc.  and on top of that the fly wheel gets cross pinned with roll pins on both sides.  also re-read Brians build and he used a long reach drill to do that.  - I have one on order, and I already have some long reach center drills.  but on that note,  I really really dread this part of it.  just makes me nervous about getting the timing just right so I'm asking about experience with set screws on the fly wheel.  first of all my fly wheel is very tight on the shaft to begin with. I made a dbit reamer from left over shaft material that I used emory cloth on to make it even slightly smaller than the actual shaft so as to obtain a very tight fit of the actual crankshaft.  this way no woblly loose fitting fly wheel.  yes I know tight is not enough to hold up to the forces of ignition hammering on it but I was thinking about set screws instead of a roll pin.  thus allowing me to adjust timing if I need.

I was thinking of a cup style tip set screw.  2 on opposite sides / on both sides of the fly wheel = qty of 4 total.
if not cup what about point?  below are pictures of the 2 styles I had in mind.  if not permenant what about just long enough to get it running then switch to roll pin?


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2019)

Don't do it. Time your engine as close as you can get it, then drill and cross-pin like the instructions say. If you are out, you can change the meshing of the timing gears to correct the timing.


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## werowance (Aug 12, 2019)

wonder how much 1 tooth on the timing gear would = out roughly x amount of degrees?  just a best guess?


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2019)

There are 24 teeth on the crankshaft gear. There are 360 degrees in a circle. 360 / 24=15 degrees in each tooth. I had much the same concerns as you about getting the hole in the correct position. I built a jig to ensure that things were in the correct rotational alignment before I drilled the crankshaft. I will try and find my original build and see if the jig drawing is shown there. See post #267 (or close to that) and you will see the fixture I made to position things correctly before drilling the hole in the crankshaft.
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/anybody-want-to-guess.7687/page-14


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2019)

Werowance--I still have that fixture I made to time the Webster around here somewhere. If you want it I can send it to you. If you want it send me your address and I will put it in the mail tomorrow.---Brian


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## werowance (Aug 13, 2019)

That is a really kind offer.  let me re-read your build and look at the fixture.  my concern is where I deviated from the plans on the crank a bit to accommodate ball bearings as well as a counter weight it may not work.


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## werowance (Aug 13, 2019)

last night I decided to try out an ignition circuit.  the ford van coil pack either does not work or I wired it wrong.  ill pick up a regular 12v coil from tractor supply in the next day or so.  same as I use on my farmall.  I know exactly the setup for it and the terminals are labeled + and - so I don't mix them up.  the ford van coil pack or coil over plug as I learned they are called did not work.  that was a gamble and I wanted to try it for size reasons but it didn't pan out for me.


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## werowance (Aug 13, 2019)

Brian, i was looking back at your thread and how you used that jig to set the timing and drill.  i see that the basic of it is that you have a hole drilled at a certain height that your crank throw pin fits through to hold it in position.  then an area to clamp your fly wheel when you have it set right.  i believe my fly wheel will hold itself in position just fine because its extremely tight already.  perhaps a drop of lock tight at the edge of flywheel/shaft for good measure before drilling. 

but my question is,  how did you calculate the height of the hole in the jig for the crank throw pin to obtain the 15 degrees?  i was considring jsut using my angle blocks to find it but im betting you used some sort of math to do it and id like to learn it. kind of like how you amazed me yesterday with the simple solution to calculate 1 gear tooth = 15 degrees,  that was so simple but i would have never figured it out.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 13, 2019)

Werowance--it's simple trigonometry. The crank arm on your engine is 5/8". You want it to be rotated "up" at an angle of 15 degrees counterclockwise from horizontal.  So--- .625" x sin 15=.162" see the diagram.


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## werowance (Aug 13, 2019)

Thank you Brian!  fyi I failed 2 years of pre-algebra.  I can count to 10 on my fingers and 20 if I use my toes as well. lol.  and now I see how you did that which is a great and very usefull lesson for future projects.   also without the diagram I would have never ever understood what you were talking about so that extra effort is very much appreciated.

basicly drill a hole whose center is .162 up from the bottom of a good square block that fits my crank pin and put the nut on the pin to hold it in place and make sure the block is clamped down to the engine base and that should give me the 15 deg needed.  this will take away a lot of my fear on timing this thing.

edit,  just tried this on the windows calculator using the sin button and got .16176....  so I guess normally you would round up or down to the nearest thou?


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 13, 2019)

If you have anything that can work to 5 decimal places, go for it. As a general rule, numbers used in mechanical drawings are rounded off to three decimal places, or even two, depending on the degree of accuracy required. Only very critical fits may be given a fourth decimal place, because most shops don't have machines that will work to such close tolerances. When you get the crankshaft set to 15 degrees, (before the piston reaches bottom dead center) the cam should be positioned so that the rocker arm is just touching the valve, but not lifting it yet.


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## Mechanicboy (Aug 14, 2019)

You can make a 15 degree angle of cardboard or plywood and place it on the crankshaft and set as the baseline is in parallel with the base of the motor, align the crankshaft and crankpin with line of 15 degree angle . Turn camshaft until the rocker arm touches the valve stem without opening the exhaust valve before attaching the gearwheel/flywheel to the crankshaft.


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## werowance (Aug 14, 2019)

Hi Mechanic boy,  I modified my crank to have counter balance weights so mine is not flat as the plans called for.  but had I done it like that then yes I could have used my angle blocks and 123 blocks to get the proper angle.   thanks for the input and hopefully someone else building this engine who does make it by the plans properly will see this and it will help them.


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## Mechanicboy (Aug 14, 2019)

Hi, Werowance. My engine has balance weight on crank, no problem -->  Align the measure tool with the circle who are visible on crank shaft and let the crank pin lay on the measure tool before setting the cam and fastening.


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## Bill Lawson (Aug 14, 2019)

I dropped algebra when they told me That Pi are square and I was smart enough to know that pi are round.  Enough of that, I too am building a Webster in my winter habitat. I don’t have the drawings with me, so I am following your progress with interest.  I am not very keen on cross drilling the flywheel to secure it to the crank. I will if I have to, but I wondered if a small key way would work and the cam being a slip into the flywheel hub and secured with a small setscrew


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## werowance (Aug 16, 2019)

got the muffler made,  next I realized I forgot to make the flywheel spacer as well as mill the flats on the piston wrist pin,  and still need to make the carb adapter.  getting close...


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 16, 2019)

Looking really good.--Brian


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## werowance (Aug 22, 2019)

very slow going lately,  u joint on my trucks right front axle went out this weekend then after that I had a couple days fight with the dreaded "cant stay out of the bathroom"  thankfully that's over with.  anyway I managed to get the carb adapter done and started on the flywheel spacer last night.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 22, 2019)

If it runs as good as it looks you are going to have a real winner there.--Brian


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## werowance (Aug 27, 2019)

got the flats milled on the wrist pin,  realized I hadnt drilled the oil hole in the rod so I did that, finished the flywheel spacer and installed the rings on the piston.  I then did a little break in by hand.  compression seems good.  all that's left is to make the jig to drill the cross holes in the flywheel and then drill / pin it and to make ignition circuit.  then if it runs ill make a proper fuel tank. 

a tip that might help others installing the piston in the cylinder after the rings have been installed - a zip tie.  it compressed the ring and without to much fuss I got it in.

only picture I have is of the flats milled.


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## CFLBob (Aug 27, 2019)

Looking forward to seeing it run.  Like Brian said, it runs as good as it looks that's going to be a real winner.


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## werowance (Aug 28, 2019)

made the jig last night to hold the crank in place so I can drill the flywheel.  before I do that I just wanted to double check,  the drawings show the crank hole to be 2.0 from the bottom, then add .162 for a total of 2.162 from bottom to where I need to drill the hole in my jig?  that's what I did and it appears to be right but I want to double check and show some photos before I actually drill the fly wheel.  on my jig its just rough sawn on the top but where it matters the bottom is milled and square and the hole measured from the bottom up.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 28, 2019)

However, in this case, the small gear is attached to the flywheel and this is kind of a two part deal. Webster wants the crank throw positioned so that the piston is 15 degrees before bottom dead center, and also wants the cam set in a position where the rocker arm is about to begin lifting the exhaust valve, hence the exact positioning of the flywheel in its rotation.


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## werowance (Aug 28, 2019)

but is the crank in the proper 15 deg spot by the measurements I called out?  it looks right to me.  but just questioning my measurements.  if that is correct then next I will rotate the flywheel with the crank locked in place until the rocker arm just "starts to lift the exhaust valve off of its seat" as the plan says.  I assume that just a barely move it description?


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## werowance (Aug 29, 2019)

now I have another question,  I think its called valve lash.  the space between rocker arm tappet and valve tip.  when the cam is at the fullest possible closed position - or at the lowest point of the cam and rocker arm how much space or gap should there be between the rocker arm tappet and valve stem?  I cant find any info on it in the instructions,  the drawing - where it shows the engine fully assembled shows a gap but it doesn't have any dimensions on that page.  should it be 0 lash adjust till it just touches or almost touches?


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## aka9950202 (Aug 29, 2019)

I set it to .25mm and it runs. Just a lucky guess on my part.

Andrew in Melbourne


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## Mechanicboy (Aug 29, 2019)

For the mostly of all model engines the valve gap is 0,04 mm-0,1 mm. The gap is determined by heat of expansion in the material.  0,25 mm is too much for the small engine due the timing  will be reduced affected by big gap since the small parts in the model engine do not expanding so much as the large engines.  (0,25 mm for intake valve can you find in the car engine, too much in model engine. Also i am car mechanic)


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 29, 2019)

Leave about .010" to .015" gap when the cam is not influencing the rocker arm. This gap can be between the rocker arm and the valve, or the rocker arm and the cam, or a combination of both.For setting the valve timing, the cam should be touching the rocker arm and the rocker arm should be touching the end of the valve , but not yet lifting it. That is where they should be before you drill the crankshaft and flywheel at the position of 15 degrees before bottom dead center. The ONLY reason that gap is there is to make sure that the valve isn't held open by anything on the compression stroke.


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## werowance (Aug 29, 2019)

Brian and Mechanic boy,  thank you very much!

last night I disassembled everything for final inspection and cleanup and discovered yet one more thing I had forgot to do.  countersink the hole on the bottom plate for the screw that holds the head block down.  at the time I didn't have the right size screw to go by - now I do.  finished that all up,  took the mating surfaces between the head and valve block and put them on a surface plate with 1200 grit and now they are nice and flat - hopefully I can get by without a gasket but ready to if I need to.   my wife bought me a belated birthday gift yesterday to,  a large shop fan.  said I was sweating profusely the other day when working on my truck.  shes wonderful.


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## Brian Peters (Aug 29, 2019)

up .25 is correct  but to be 0.25 off the diagonal line which looks like 60 not 90 to the horizontal line  you would need to calculate the offset to the right as 
right = cos(60) x 0.25 =  0.125   should get you there if I still remember how to do trig.


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## Brian Peters (Aug 29, 2019)

sorry about the redundant answer to  a problem on page 2  lol  will get the hang of this soon only respond to the end of the thread     Durp  as my son would say


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## Brian Peters (Aug 29, 2019)

werowance said:


> got my bearings in and also helped someone out with making a new handle bolt for their gun safe and now I'm back to work on the engine.
> 
> on laying out the inside radius I just cant seem to get it right.  attached is a drawing of where I'm having trouble and if I move my table up and to the right by .250 in both directions from where the lines intersect which I have circled then that is where I should drill a .500 hole to get a .250 radius correct?  when testing it with layout dye and my compass set with one point in where the drill puch mark would be and the other side of my compass extended out by .250 it just wont intersect with the lines correctly.  seem to be at the least to far to the right.  so what can you think of that I'm doing wrong or how would I locate that drill to get the radius.  I realize I could just omit the radius but part of the fun is learning (to a certain extent).  so basicly if measure from the far right hand of the part to the left I was measuring 3.250 and scribed a line up and down.  and then (measurement not shown in the pic) looking at the part on the far right hand that part is 1.250 high so I measured 1.500 high and scribed a line from left to right and from where my to scribed lines intersected I thought should be where the .500 drill would go.  but in testing it misses the mark.
> 
> View attachment 107252


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 29, 2019)

You will need a head gasket.


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## werowance (Aug 30, 2019)

actually I do have a copper head gasket.  I was just talking about the valve block.  although I didn't specify that.  and on that subject I figured I would use copper head gasket spray like I use on the farmall non coated metal head gaskets and spray both sides of the copper gasket. (no sprays or glues on the valve blocks - only paper gasket if I have to on those like you mentioned) 
then on the carb,  I was thinking instead of locktight I might try the tefflon paste like you use for screw in fuel lines going in a caborator.  that stuff sets up almost like glue after a few days,  figured it might hold it.

anyway last night I was cleaning everything and getting it back together and discovered yet another part I didn't make.  the jam nut for the bottom side of the tappet.  I didn't have a single 4-40 nut in the shop so I took a piece of 1/4 brass hex rod and made one.  then got everything assembled enough to drill and pin the fly wheel and locktighted the jig in place - which I should be able to break loose after the drill relatively easy.


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## CFLBob (Aug 30, 2019)

werowance, what kind of finish did you use on the flywheel web?  It looks like wrinkle paint.  

I'm chugging along, but between fixing a dozen other things around the house and other stuff, it's real slow going right now.  I have done powder coating before and was considering just using black powder coat.


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## werowance (Aug 30, 2019)

yep wrinkle paint.  the steel was hard and was taking to much time to get a nice polished finish on the inside areas of it so I opted for wrinkle paint.  fairly high temp, fuel / oil resistant etc.  and easy to apply.  I picked up a can at the local Napa auto parts store.  ive never powder coated anything but I know what the finish looks like and I bet that would look nice on yours.  I to understand the fixing things.  I have to re-fix my truck this weekend.  evidently I didn't get something right when replacing the ujoint on my truck.  something ive done on other trucks and equipment in the past many times but something isn't right.  its a singing when driving it now  was quiet when first replaced but a couple weeks and its a high pitched whine now.  so that's why ill be doing when I get home tonight.  driving the wifes car today man I hate that teeny tiny thing.


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## werowance (Aug 30, 2019)

hiding the scratches in first picture which the camera just doesn't show just how bad they really were with the wrinkle paint in the second picture.


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## CFLBob (Aug 30, 2019)

Good lucking results.  I'm not sure how'd get that with powder.  Some combination of masking, I guess, but I'd have to look into a brush on mask.


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## werowance (Aug 30, 2019)

what I did was take wide masking tape and cover the entire flywheel,  then took a razer blade and trimmed out the center section.  I used 2 layers of masking tape first.  that way everything but the inside was protected.  don't know if that would work with powder coat though


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## CFLBob (Aug 30, 2019)

The main difference is the heat soak on the powder coat.  I had some light green polymer tape and pieces that came in a sampler.  Might still be out in the shop somewhere.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 30, 2019)

When I worked for Volkswagen of Canada I designed all of the vacuum guns used to vacuum the powder paint out of the wheel nut wells on the cast aluminum wheels before they went to heat cure. They were amazing looking 5 barrel pistols with vacuum thru the barrels. They looked like sci-fi death ray pistols. Werowance--I tried copper head gaskets but could never get them to seal. Finally, in frustration, I just used 0.030" water-pump gasket for a head gasket. It sealed perfectly and I've never had a problem with it.---Brian


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## werowance (Sep 1, 2019)

well its very late and I have had family over for a nice dinner.   I have hopefully everything ready for startup.  my question is what is the normal accepted rotation for running.   as observed from the valve / rocker arm side should it be clockwise or counter clockwise?

I found another mistake but ill elaborate on that once I have better internet.  just to say I corrected it.

also I liberly sprayed the copper head gasket with copper head spray on both sides. normaly I would spray a farmall on both sides of the gasket, the block head deck and the head itself. and immediately put parts together.   right now there seems to be a good amount of suction from through the carb.i cant see the valve move on intake so I am concerned but there is vacume and release.   I expect to fight with it for a long while

oh and the carb to carb adapter is sealed up with Teflon paste.  it cured up tight and snug hope it stays  that way


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 2, 2019)

Well, actually, look at it this way---you set the crankshaft so the piston would be at 15 degrees before bottom dead center when you drilled the crankshaft and flywheel. The flywheel should turn whichever direction it needs to make that 15 degree angle even smaller.


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## werowance (Sep 2, 2019)

i have spent most of my day trying to get it to run.  assuming that 15 deg before top dead would just be moving the jig I used to drill and pin the flywheel and crank to the opposite end of the crank throw and I set the ignition timing.   now heres what I get.  a few pops, burnt oily fuel and when it pops it kicks a little.  using a rubber wheel about 4 or 5 inch in diameter on my drill rubbing the outside of the flywheel it will pop forward and exceed my drill for on or 2 kicks.   
it is certainly broke in better and  spins over eaiser.   

the intake valve spring was to strong.   I found an old grinder with a busted head that the brush springs seems to be just right.  I can see the intake valve move now an on a slow turn over I can hear a whine of the intake.  kind of a whistle or a sigh noise.

on the cylinder and copper gasket I do have a leak around at least one bolt hole   if I load it up with fuel it will bubble out around the edge of that bolt hole.   at this point I disassembled and noticed the screw at that point of leakage had dug into that gasket a little.  a little work is required here to fix that leak.

I tried coleman fuel which was about 15 years old,   does that stuff go bad?  it still burns my lantern....
I tried nitro fuel  that I used to use on my dune buggy and got a lot more fires and kicks from it.

I have so many questions and am so anxious I cant stand it lol.  so excuse my annoyance lol

1. is my ignition timing question right?
2. what was the gasket or oring Brian used from a pump for the head?  I have some rubberized gasket sheet I could use if that's acceptable?
3. what do you think about the fuel?   nitro or coleman and  the shelf life of coleman?
4. carburetor - im using the common traxxas carb,  how many turns from bottom to open is considered close enough for start?  and about what amount of throttle should it be at?  seems 1/4 or a little less sucks fuel better. 

sorry for being so needy.  once I post this im gonna go eat and then re-read several posts.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 2, 2019)

Ignition spark should occur approximately 15 degrees before top dead center. I used a piece of 0.030" thick plain waterpump gasket for a head gasket. Don't use rubberized gasket---it will melt. As far as I know, Coleman fuel in a sealed can doesn't go bad. I wouldn't use Nitro fuel. You can google "Traxxas carb settings" and the factory settings are fine--don't change them. Throttle setting should be just slightly open for start up. Make sure to use some kind of gasket between the 3 carburetor/exhaust mounting plates, even if its just brown paper bag stock. I am not a fan of friction wheel starts. I like the kind of starting arrangement I have in my build thread much better. Good luck!!--Brian


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## minh-thanh (Sep 3, 2019)

werowance !
I usually use this glue for  head cylinder


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## werowance (Sep 4, 2019)

getting close.  i think i have all the compression leaks taken care of now.  getting some good pops and a long string of them together - enough to where i think its starting but when i remove the drill it wont keep going.  cylinder is getting hot and is throwing carbon oil out the rear.  i switched back to coleman fuel and now that's doing better than the nitro was.  the picture below is mostly from the nitro fuel mix but some of it is from the coleman fuel (the black sludge).  tonight ill try 2 stroke 40 to 1 mix i have for my weedeater and see how it does.  then ill fiddle more with the ignition timing to.  which i have fiddled a lot with already.


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## aka9950202 (Sep 4, 2019)

I found my engine ran well on petrol. Raw fuel or 40 to 1 2 stroke fuel.

Looking forward to seeing a video of your engine running. 

Cheers, 

Andrew in Melbourne


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 4, 2019)

Time for a little analysis. You obviously have fuel in the tank. The fuel level in the tank should never be above the center of the carburetor  Best scenario is that when the tank is full to the top, the top should be 1/2" below the centerline of the carburetor. Next thing will be the ignition timing. If you have an old "points" system, just lay the sparkplug somewhere on the engine and turn the engine over in the direction it is going to run. You will be able to hear and see the spark, and this will prove to you that the spark is coming at the right time in the engines running sequence, about 15 degrees before the piston reaches top dead center. If you are using electronic ignition, make damn sure your sparkplug is held securely to the block ---if it doesn't have a good solid connection to the block it will burn out your hall effect sensor. Keep on turning the engine in the direction of rotation and watch the exhaust valve--it should begin to open just before the engine reaches bottom dead center, and should fully open and remain open until just before piston reaches top dead center. You don't want it to stay open past top dead center, or your engine won't pull fuel mixture in during the intake stroke. That is your valve timing.-----Assuming your engine is timed properly, both spark and valve timing, leave the sparkplug wire off, put the sparkplug back in and give the flywheel a flip with your hand, again in the direction you have chosen for the engine to run. The engine should "bounce back" against compression. If it doesn't bounce back, then it is not holding compression. Take out the sparkplug and squirt some 30 weight motor oil down the sparkplug hole.--Flip the engine upside down and drain out any oil that will come out of the sparkplug hole. Set your engine back upright, put the sparkplug back in, and flip the flywheel again. If it now bounces back against compression, you will know that your rings are not sealing. If it still doesn't bounce back, then your valves are not sealing. If it seems that the rings are not "bedding" properly, take the sparkplug out, set your engine up on the bench, oil everything really well, and drive your engine using an electric motor for two hours. Use pulleys that give a 3:1 ratio so that your engine is turning at about 600 rpm. (most electric motors are 1800 rpm.). If your rings don't "bed" after running things like this, then they are probably never going to "bed" and seal against compression. If you determine that the valves are at fault, then disassemble things and relap the valves with 600 grit aluminum oxide lapping paste. This covers just about everything I know about how to get a new engine to run.--Good luck!!!---Brian Rupnow


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## werowance (Sep 4, 2019)

i have good spark and can see it.  fuel tank for the most part has been below the carb hose barb however I have tested with it above that level and actually got better results like that but with each change I put everything back to how it "should be" and start out below the level. 

on ignition timing I used the same jig for 15 deg before bottom dead center and just moved it forward so the piston is 15 deg before top dead and set the points.
I do get a bounce back and it actually seems to be trying to run backwards or is kicking a lot when firing with the drill.  I have tried retarding the ignition a little bit and also advancing it a little bit and neither helped.

one thing I will say. the more I spin the engine the free-er it gets and is starting to break in.  I'm wondering if that's why its starting to pop a lot more on coleman fuel now.

valves are still a question for me.  I put a weaker spring on intake and can visually see it open on intake and can also hear a squeak when I slowly hand turn it and it sucks in through it.  if I hold the valve shut I get no squeak and hard to push over.

on the exhaust I did put a slightly weaker spring on it to but still way stiffer than intake.  but the original spring was way way to stiff.  the new one is definitely strong enough to prevent opening on intake suction.

and also the cylinder does get really hot when its doing that firing like its going to run but just doesn't.  I really hope its not the valves........


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 4, 2019)

I have looked back over your build, and I see you used 12L14 steel for your cylinder. That would work fine with Viton rings, but I am not sure that it will work with the cast iron rings you used. Iron has a lot of "free graphite" in it's molecular structure, so is to a large extent self lubricating. Cast iron rings running in a cast iron cylinder is the standard formula that always work well together. I don't know if your cast iron rings will "bed" in that 12L14 steel cylinder or not.


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## minh-thanh (Sep 4, 2019)

watch my video:

If, there is no compression
unscrew the cylinder head, seal  the cylinder head by hand, the compression force as in my video or more: cylinder and piston ok
-> check valve again
With intake valve springs,* it only needs to hold the valve in the closed position !*
With the exhaust valve spring, because  valve is open by cam, its stronger  no problem


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## Cogsy (Sep 5, 2019)

The 12L14 won't be a problem with cast iron rings - Steve Huck uses that combination in his multi-cylinder engines and they work perfectly. I would be trying some new fuel myself as I find it tough to believe that all the volatiles have hung around in your Coleman for 15 years - no can is that impermeable. Also, on the nitro, I assume you mean methanol with some % of nitro in it. If so, the needle settings for running on alcohol are far different than those for petrol/gasoline. I'd grab some brand-new gasoline so you know it's good, and start from there. Your ignition timing can be out a bit, even your cam timing can be a smidge off, but if it has good fuel, with roughly the right amount of air, enough compression and a spark, it will run. Good luck!


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## werowance (Sep 5, 2019)

ok, last night I tried 40 to 1 weedeater gas oil mix and it hit hard tried to start but it wouldn't.  I started hand turning it over and it no longer has that nice push back from compression that I had before it broke in.  I pulled the head and cylinder off together and removed valve assembly, piston and plug.  I plugged the spark plug hole and the back of the cylinder with my hands and applied suction on the intake exhaust hole on head and it held suction so the head gasket was sealing properly. 

then I inspected the rings and I think I found my problem.  in the first picture you will see a dark section on the ring.  this is not a shadow.  this is where the ring is not rubbing or has not broken in.  the other ring has this as well but not as much.  this is exactly opposite side to the split in the ring.  so I'm pretty sure this is the loss of compression I now have.   oh well I think I posted further back that I fully expected to have to go with vititon oring for my first ic engine and looks like I'm going to have to do that.  ill be looking back at Brians build to see what oring he got and dimensions of it.  and also on my lunch break I hope I can swing by the auto parts store and pick up an assortment of them.  hopefully if I'm lucky ill find one that fits my top ring groove in my existing piston and I wont even have to make a new one (doubt that actually works out that way though but wouldn't it be nice if it did).


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## minh-thanh (Sep 5, 2019)

My engine does not need rings and still runs for a long time, so I think your engine is also not necessary, unless you want the piston to have it ! 
personal opinion : focus on compression, just have compression it will run!
run well or not,  leave later.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 5, 2019)

Werowance-- Use only one Viton ring 1/16" nominal cross section. (actually 0.070") Outside  diameter of Viton ring same as cylinder bore. Slot in piston 0.094" wide (parting tool width) x 0.056" to 0.058" deep.  Do not use a standard butyl rubber ring. One thing you could try before pulling everything apart---Sacrifice a sparkplug by breaking away all the ceramic and the inner electrode and solder a short piece of metal tubing onto it. Slip a piece of flexible tubing over that, screw it back into the cylinder head, and put some air to it. When the piston is at the top of it's compression stroke, you can easily tell if air is coming from the exhaust--leaky exhaust valve. If air is coming out of the carburetor---leaky intake valve. If air is coming out past the piston, then your rings are bad. Just be AWARE--Hang onto the flywheel so it doesn't begin to rotate off top dead center or it will take off  like a rocket for bottom dead center.


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## Cogsy (Sep 5, 2019)

For a quick and dirty test of your rings you could add a drop or two of oil in the plug hole and see how much your compression increases.

I wouldn't expect your rings to be seating properly until the engine has a reasonable amount of run time (maybe 15 minutes?). Seal will improve the more combustion cycles it sees and if it's consistently hitting then it has enough compression for combustion and should run. My guess is your carb settings are off slightly. A bit of tweaking and I believe it will run as it is.


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## werowance (Sep 6, 2019)

Cogsy so that little bit of not wearing bright and shiney on the exact opposite end of the split on the ring would be normal until more running?  i probably have about 30 mins to an hour of runt time with electric drill power on them.  the thought of them still being ok excites me as i figured the rings and piston were trash at this point.  glad i didn't toss anything just yet and start over.

also don't know if i mentioned it but my brother and i bought a saw mill a couple weeks ago.  taking a little break away from the engine (couple days only so far) has helped as well and that saw mill is the coolest toy next to the lathe and mill i have ever owned - or half owned before.


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## Cogsy (Sep 6, 2019)

I can't guarantee that the ring will fully seal, but until it's had some good actual running time you just can't know. Because it's got enough compression to fire it is my best guess that your settings are just off enough that it won't run on it's own and it highly likely to be your carb needle settings. Once you get the setting close enough I believe it will run and you can then tweak more so it runs it's best. At this point you will have higher combustion pressures which will attempt to expand your rings into the bore and they will then bed-in reasonably quickly. You can expect compression to increase over the first 10-15 minutes of actual running time but if your rings are still leaking after 30 minutes of real running then they're probably never going to fully seal. Of course at that point you have to wonder, if the engine runs nicely, do you really need to bother to improve the compression.

Short story - I believe it will at least run on it's own power with your current piston and rings.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 8, 2019)

We're all on the edge of our seats here, wondering whats happening.---Brian


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## werowance (Sep 9, 2019)

this weekend I ran in the rings a lot - about 2 hours worth.  compression has increased a lot.  last night I had about 30 mins of play time so I tried starting it.  both on 40 to 1 gas and on the old coleman fuel.  this time coleman came in first as the most hits. 

the engine will hit almost every other hit, and will sometimes actually try to take off.  the cylinder was hot as all get out by the time I quit tinkering with it last night.  I'm thinking with a little timing adjustment and better coleman fuel I may get it to run.

I know it fires on both compression as well as exhaust stroke,  but it does sound as if its firing through the muffler each hit.   is this the normal sound?  wondering if either cam time is off or if I may have a leaky exhaust valve.

hope to get to Walmart after work and pick up a new can of coleman fuel for tonight.


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## werowance (Sep 9, 2019)

posting factory settigns for the traxxas pro 15 carb here for mine and anyone elses reference.  copied from traxxas forum.
and a question,  when working on starting issues I guess one would worry with the low speed adjustment and not the high speed right?  which ive been working with the large high speed screw for testing.  I didn't know the low speed was the screw on top of the throttle lever. I just thought that was what held the lever in place.

begin paste from forum:

The first adjustment should be your idle speed. Set your throttle opening to 1.5mm open with the throttle arm pushed all the way towards the head of the engine. Next, set your low speed mixture to 1 3/4 turns out from bottom. Last, set your high speed mixture setting to 2 1/4-2 1/2 turns out from bottom.


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## werowance (Sep 9, 2019)




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## Cogsy (Sep 9, 2019)

I haven't used an RC carb on a model engine that I've built, but I know from experience with RC planes that they can be fiddly to set up. The low speed will be what you need to adjust to get your engine running. Then the throttle response will be based on adjusting both needles, although mainly the high speed once you really get the low speed dialed in.

The carbs I normally make are simpler and generally only have one needle. They can still be very finicky about the needle setting to get the engine fired up, especially when it's new. I would doubt your purchased carb will be spot on the correct setting straight out of the box so I would think that's where you need to look first, before you worry about fine tuning cam timing.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 9, 2019)

Surprisingly enough, all the Traxxas carburetors I buy come set exactly to what the internet settings say. And the original settings don't change very much at all to run our little engines. The only adjustment I mess with is the external idle adjustment screw.


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

last night I set the carb back to factory spec,  brand new coleman fuel and still no start.  lots and lots of pops.  cylinder heating up etc.  I even went as far as to rotate ign cam a full 360 deg at about 5 deg per try.  once I hit it firing on exhaust my wife came out of the house and gave me the thumbs up thinking I had it running....  but alas I did not.

this morning re-reading the timing on both ign and valve I may have hit on at least one thing I think I was doing wrong and one thing to just double check.

ign cam:
rotate it clockwise until the points close and just start to open.
- on this I was setting until the points just start to close  not close then open.  but the trial of rotating 360 deg I think should have covered that but maybe I missed it.  ill check that tonight

valve timing:
If set properly, the exhaust valve will close a few degrees before TDC.
- on this I did not verify that part, however as per instructions at 15deg it just starts to move the valve - I do have adjustment here if need be - very little but I can raise the tappet screw just a bit.  but ill verify this tonight.


on fuel- I can definitely smell a difference in old (15 years or more old) coleman vs just bough yesterday coleman however I really didn't notice any difference in how hard the engine was hitting or firing.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 10, 2019)

Set the engine so that piston is 15 degrees before top dead center. Take the sparkplug  out and lay it on the head or anywhere on the metal body that you can see it but leave power to sparkplug on. Loosen off the ignition cam grub screw and make sure that the flat part of the cam is contacting the rubbing block on the points. Now turn the ignition cam in the direction the engine would normally turn. as soon as the cam opens the points, you will see and hear a spark occur. That is the point at which you lock down the ignition grub screw.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 10, 2019)




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## Mechanicboy (Sep 10, 2019)

You can not use the carburator who are adjusted for methanol, much less counts of turns on needle... Also the engine running at gasoline or coleman fuel need less turns on needle for high mixture and idling mixture. My engine is running with 1/2 turns of main needle for gasoline, not more. If running on methanol, then the counts turns of needle is more up to 2 1/2 - 3 turns.


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

Mechanicboy, I'm running the same Carb that Brian used on his Webster.  traxxas pro 15.  what is your carb model? and what fuel are you running on? and what engine as well?  I ask to see if its all the same as what I am running.


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## Cogsy (Sep 10, 2019)

In general, methanol carbs are set to run much richer than gasoline for the same size engine. As you don't know the 'proper' setting for your engine yet, I'd shut the main jet fully off then open it 1/4 of a turn and try and start it. As it failed to start I'd open it up by no more than 1/8 of a turn at a time and keep trying. You'll hear it start to fire as it gets closer to the proper setting. Brian seems to have luck with these things running straight out of the box for him but I wouldn't count on having the same luck. For me, getting a new engine running is 95% fiddling with the carb settings until I get it right. Ignition just needs to be reasonably close and cam timing can be off quite a lot and it will still run. But carbs have to be adjusted properly.


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## Mechanicboy (Sep 10, 2019)

I'm talking about same R/C carburator.    Did you read i wrote i'm using gasoline?  To adjust the amount of fuel is not same to run on methanol or gasoline in same engine when use same brand or size of the carburator.  The fuel amount to mix in air is determined by contens of BTU in miscellaneous fuel. The Stoichiometric Fuel/Air Mixture: The gasoline/air ratio is 1:14,7 and methanol/air ratio is 1:6,4. Also the engine use much less gasoline than methanol. The setting is for *methanol* as you wrote this in former post:  _The first adjustment should be your idle speed. Set your throttle opening to 1.5mm open with the throttle arm pushed all the way towards the head of the engine. Next, set your low speed mixture to 1 3/4 turns out from bottom. Last, set your high speed mixture setting to 2 1/4-2 1/2 turns out from bottom.  _ Carburator is my own design to run my engine.


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

sorry mechanicboy, I was just double checking.  thanks for restating that you were using gasoline. the rest I gather is that you are using your own designed carburetor and you don't neceserily  state what engine.  in your last post.


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

now own to what I have found.   when I rotate the engine, as viewed from the valve side and going clockwise.
when the exhust valve starts to open and then is fully open would be when the piston is at top dead center I guess on exhaust stroke.  the exhaust valve is fully closed when the piston is at bottom dead center all the way out of the cylinder as far as it can go.   - reading instructions and other things I feel like I have it backwards.   but from what I think I know it should be opening about halfway up the exhaust stroke or a little more.    ill try to get the wife to help me do a video.  but for sure the valve is full on open at top dead center the piston all the way forward to the spark plug as viewed from valve side.

if this is exactly opposite.  what do you all think about driving roll pins out and rotating 180 on the fly wheel ?  

ill check back in a few.  it will take me a long time from home to post a utube video


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

I hope this video works  and to say my wife and I tried our best to get a good enough shot to show where the parts are for timing. please note the tappet is still adjusted low as part of last nights test however its probably less than .020  more like .010 if I had to guess.   but as for showing if 180 out or not I think that little bit of clearance would not matter.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 10, 2019)

See post #279" _Keep on turning the engine in the direction of rotation and watch the exhaust valve--it should begin to open just before the engine reaches bottom dead center, and should fully open and remain open until just before piston reaches top dead center. You don't want it to stay open past top dead center, or your engine won't pull fuel mixture in during the intake stroke._"


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## werowance (Sep 10, 2019)

Wich is oposite of what I have now. Agreed?  Or agreed that mine is way off per awful video?


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## Cogsy (Sep 10, 2019)

To me, it looks like you're turning the engine backwards in that video? So yes, the valve timing is exactly backwards. I'd say reverse the rotation of the engine and adjust your ignition timing to suit the new direction and see what happens.


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## Mechanicboy (Sep 10, 2019)

How to set ignition timing and exhaust timing in the WEW model engine. This is my engine. 
Ignition timing is beginning before TDC about from 2,5 and up to 5-10 degree and exhaust valve is opened 15 degree before BDC.


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## Mechanicboy (Sep 11, 2019)

Werowance, you are starting the engine in fault direction of rotation. Start up the engine in other direction and the ignition set some degree before TDC.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

ok, thank you.  i will change rotation, adjust points cam and hopefully i can do this tonight and try again.

thank you.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

ok, thank you.  i will change rotation, adjust points cam and hopefully i can do this tonight and try again.

thank you.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 11, 2019)

Werowance--My engine is set up to run clockwise when the side with the valve block on it is closest to you. My reasoning for that is that I use my electric variable speed drill to start the engine. This means that the drill has a "starter spud" in the chuck, which engages directly with the end of the crankshaft. If I were to try and start the engine turning counter clockwise, the starter spud in the drill chuck will loosen itself in the chuck. If you have managed to drill the hole in your crankshaft 180 degrees out of phase, then yes, I think that by resetting the ignition timing it should run.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

it now runs!!!!  not great on first video but I did lean the high speed adjust down and it revs much higher.   had to stop because the screws holding the head started getting loose and the Teflon thread paste started to give way on the carb.  I have tightened the screws and locktighted the carb and carb adapter in before I try a third run.  but yes the carb was way to rich.  but did start and run on factory settings.  leaning the high speed made it rev high but cant say on low speed screw adjustment until the lock tight dries and I can run again.  fuel is brand new coleman fuel.  rings are the cast iron store bought ones.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

the video above was with factory carb settings  no video yet after leaning it out on high speed adjust.
and wanted to point out that even the base was to hot to handle after I stoped it.  it never stoped on its on. but it creates a lot of heat.

I did keep the oil hole lubed like an oiler would during run.  just didn't show on video.   cylinder oiler and mounted fuel tank come next now that I can confirm that it runs


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

and I want to thank everyone who chimed in and helped me.  there is no way I could have done this without everyones help.  I am sure some or most were getting very annoyed with me. but thank you for sticking in there with me and helping me have a runner.  I really appreciate all those who helped and this forum.


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## bmac2 (Sep 11, 2019)

Werowance great stuff and welcome to the “_holy crap I made a gas engine . . . and IT RUNS!_” club.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

this is my third successful.  or maybe 4th.  2 steam woblers built together as a pair so really I call that just one.  then Brians imperialized flame eater, and this one.  failed on the bj cicada aero diesel engine and failed on my first steam engine about 10 years or better ago - using a craftsman 109 lathe back then.   but yes.  first 4stroke and it runs.... im pumped happy excited -  first internal combustions ever....


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## Mechanicboy (Sep 11, 2019)

If it get to hot to run, make a water jacket instead cooling fins on the cylinder. Then you run long time until the fuel is empty.   My engine is water cooled.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 11, 2019)

Congratulations Werowance--You are now a duly certified member of the World Association of I.C. Engine Builders!!! You know the heartaches, the frustrations, and the absolute overwhelming joy that goes with successfully building and running an internal combustion engine. You've had a tremendous struggle, but you overcame many obstacles and have a runner. Well done!!!---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 11, 2019)

You will find that leaning out the hi speed jet does give you a much higher top end rpm, but the engine will puke and stall when going from idle to a higher rpm. Also--this engine in particular depends on the coolness (richness) of the mix going into the cylinder to be burned. Running at idle speeds, the engine runs cooler. Running at idle speed with the mixture not leaned out to the max makes it run cooler.


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

Good point on lean equals heat rich is cooler


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

Again thanks to everyone for helping and putting up with me


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## Johno1958 (Sep 11, 2019)

Congratulations Werowance she is a runner. Very nice.
Cheers
John


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## werowance (Sep 11, 2019)

I post this for anyone else using this carb on this engine.  It starts at factory settings however I need about 2/3 to 3/4 open throttle after prime in order to start and run.  Using factory settings. I assume it’s to overcome flooding

Will post more once dialed in but want to share the throttle settings to others building


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## awake (Sep 11, 2019)

Weworance, was the key problem the carb, or was it the valve timing, or both?


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## Cogsy (Sep 12, 2019)

Congrats on a runner! I never doubted you'd get there in the end. They can be frustrating things but that makes it feel so much better when they finally do what they're supposed to.


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## werowance (Sep 12, 2019)

awake said:


> Weworance, was the key problem the carb, or was it the valve timing, or both?


Timing.  I was timing it backwards.   It started and ran on factory carb settings


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## minh-thanh (Sep 12, 2019)

Congratulations !


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## awake (Sep 12, 2019)

I meant to add my congratulations along with my question! So ... congratulations!


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## werowance (Sep 13, 2019)

last night I was thinking about the ignition system and making a box to hold it all.  sort of a lunch box setup that holds battery, coil etc in it with a plug to goto the points and the sparkplug wire.  kind of like I have seen Brian use with his engines.  now I can use automobile wire connectors or banana plug style connectors at the points or similar but was thinking it would be nice if I could reduce the 2 wires to just one, Plus the spark plug wire. 
I don't think its possible to reduce the number of points wires down to just one is it?  one has to be chassis ground and the other is coil trigger ground. right?  this idea probably wouldn't work but could you take the - batt in the picture and attach it to the coil itself on the - side?  leaving on the  -coil wire in the picture to have to have a banana style connector for?







then I started working on gas tank.  I decided to try to re-use the one I made for my failed bj cicada engine.  had to desolder the sump or tube pickup and shorten it so it wouldn't be to high to the carb.  didn't get far with it last night  picture is before I shortened the sump.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 13, 2019)

Your box which has the coil in it will have one wire from the negative side of the coil about 16" long coming out to a quick disconnect female end. There will be a separate wire coming out which is the hi tension lead and connects to the sparkplug. Roy Sholl  at S&S Engineering sells small diameter hi tension wires with appropriate sparkplug boot attached. You can specify how long you want this wire to be. The other side of the coil + has a short wire leading to one side of a single pole single throw toggle switch (lighted) that mounts on your coil box. Another wire leads from the other side of this switch to your battery. (Make it about 36" long with an alligator clip on the battery end.) You will have a second wire about 36" long with an alligator clip on both ends. One end hooks to the negative side of your battery, the other to the frame of your engine. A final wire about 16" long is permanently attached to your ignition points. The other end of this wire has a male quick disconnect which is plugged into the female quick disconnect on the coil to run your engine.


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## werowance (Sep 13, 2019)

Brian, yes that's pretty much how I have it now.  in my picture the -batt I have circled would be the one with an alligator clip as you describe.  I was just hoping I could somehow eliminate that all together.  I don't think there is a way but thought I would ask.  but yes putting an alligator clip for frame or chasis ground might be easier than doing 2 bananna style plugs (the round male / female disconnect plugs - I call banana plugs)


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 13, 2019)

One way to eliminate the ground wire is to build the coil box as a compartment that attaches to the underside of the engine base. You would still need the pair of wires that run to your battery--unless your battery also fit into the box. I use a 12 volt garden tractor battery, so for me this is not a possibility.


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## werowance (Sep 19, 2019)

got the fuel tank made and mounted,  got the wire plug connectors done so I can disconeect the coil and such and started on the cylinder oiler.  Had to remake the muffler.  my big fat hand broke it ... made the 2nd one a little thicker where it inserts into the head. used a smaller drill.  couldn't tell any difference in the way it runs by reducing the exhaust hole.


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## werowance (Sep 19, 2019)

on the cylinder oiler.  I have some questions about dimensions as well as recommended procedure to machine it.

on machining,  would you start with the drilling, boring and threading the inside threads from the top first then unchuck and flip around and use a die on the 10/32 threads as the last step?  reason I ask is I worry that in brass the 10-32 die will wring the tip off since the holes are already drilled and such meaning there isn't enough stock to stand the twisting stress of the die?  what do you think?

then on dimension,  I don't see the overall length of the cup? or how to add it up from each step. I see the 2 .188 measurements but the rest of the body doesn't say.  guess its not critical how long it is after the two .188 measurements but I would like to do it correctly.  and what does the 2 big "F" symbols mean on this drawing?


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## werowance (Sep 19, 2019)

oh, and almost forgot,  on the coil, battery and switch etc - the box for it.  I recall Dad having some metal ammo cans in the basement he used to keep plumbing pieces and bits n bobs in.  I think an ammo can would be great to mount the coil and pieces in.  then just open the top when ready to use.  then when done roll up the wires and stuff them back in the box and close the lid.  if I remember the lid even had a rubber gasket to keep it water tight.  maybe a black wrinkle re-paint for it?  will have to look around in the basement this weekend when I go to moms house and see if there are any still there.


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## CFLBob (Sep 19, 2019)

werowance said:


> what does the 2 big "F" symbols mean on this drawing?



It's saying there's a cross section view along the line between the F symbols are written that will be labelled as "F" or "F-F".  It's the middle view in that drawing you show.   

With a part that's turned, it's symmetrical around the center line, so there's really no sense doing that.  

What I don't get is the same feature, the unthreaded portion on the bottom shows two different dimensions.  0.313 on the left, 0.375 on the F-F section.


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## awake (Sep 19, 2019)

CFLBob said:


> It's saying there's a cross section view along the line between the F symbols are written that will be labelled as "F" or "F-F".  It's the middle view in that drawing you show.
> 
> With a part that's turned, it's symmetrical around the center line, so there's really no sense doing that.
> 
> What I don't get is the same feature, the unthreaded portion on the bottom shows two different dimensions.  0.313 on the left, 0.375 on the F-F section.



Clearly, this section must be turned as an ellipse, .313 along the minor axis and .375 along the major axis.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 19, 2019)

Ignore the .313 AF.  Make the large diameter of the cup 3/4" long.


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## werowance (Sep 19, 2019)

Brian, curious, is the 3/4 long just from experience or were you able to calculate it from the drawings?  I ask for my own learning purposes so I know how to properly read plans if you were able to calculate it from the drawings


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 19, 2019)

The note above the part asks to counterbore a hole 0.562" deep. Just going on proportion alone, you see that the part must be more than .562" deep or the counterbore would cut the oilcup into two pieces. so--3/4" fits the requirements for the counterbore depth and looks about right. It is a non critical dimension. The drawing shows that the material below the depth of the .562" counterbore looks to be about 3/16". I add the 3/16" to the 9/16" deep counterbore and come up with 3/4".---Brian


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## werowance (Sep 19, 2019)

ok, but it technically doesn't really specify 3/4 , you are just goin on gut and experience (which I value your experienced answer). yes I agree its not a critical dimension,  was just agrivated that I couldn't figure it out.  I thought I was supposed to be able to add something up and come to what it was supposed to be,  like I couldn't read the drawings correctly.  thank you again.


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## Scott_M (Sep 19, 2019)

CFLBob said:


> What I don't get is the same feature, the unthreaded portion on the bottom shows two different dimensions.  0.313 on the left, 0.375 on the F-F section.



I have not seen the plans or any other views, But that makes me think that feature is square, not round.  It even looks bigger on the section labeled .375"

I'm not sure if it makes any difference, or if it is needed for clearance. Round would be easier.

Scott


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## werowance (Sep 20, 2019)

after studying further I think the ff is to show a cross section that is not dead center of the cross section.  sort of a zoomed in cross section view so to speak.  I noticed that the cross section that should be exactly a half section had diaganol lines like \ \ \  drawn on the cut view whereas the ff cross section did not. I guess to denote zoomed or exactly a down the center cut view.  at any rate I didn't get much done last night.  drilled the holes bored to final inside size and went in and ate dinner and played with the grand baby for a little bit.


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## JohnBDownunder (Sep 22, 2019)

Great build thread.
    Plus, you got your priorities correct in playing with the Grandchild as they tend to grow up and your engine build will still be waiting for your attention tomorrow. Or the day after? 
   All the best,
John B


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## werowance (Sep 23, 2019)

got the oiler cup made.  got to use my new tool post grinder.  I like it and it was cheap also compared to others.  nice tight spindle.  high speed. fit my axa tool post.  I used it to grind the tip of the needle in the oiler.  as for the oiler the plans called for a 4-40 shcs which I did not have any so I took a piece of scrap crs and knurled the top of it and then cut and die made 4-40 threads.  then used the tpg to make the point.  turned out nice.

visited my mom this weekend and sure enough a .50 cal ammo can was found in the basuement.  the inside was a bit rusty but I think it will clean up good,  hopefully will make a nice ignition coil and battery can.


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## werowance (Sep 26, 2019)

still working on this rusty ammo can,  my playsand for the sandblaster is just to wet to flow through my siphon feed blaster.  I dried some in an old pot on the grill and decided to put some in a container spread out and put it inside my old farm truck to bake in todays heat to dry it out.  also keeps the cats and animals etc out of it while drying it.  don't want any surprise packages you know....   anyway I was thinking last night that the wrinkle paint isn't going to be a good choice for this because of the handles and latches.  and since 1. I am truly color blind - green brown. 2. I have no sense of style or for what looks good until after I see it done by someone else who does. I thought I would ask what in your alls opinion would look like appropriate for the paint color?  a few ideas I had were - flat black because I have some. industrial grey enamel, flat red and then dull aluminum bumper and steel wheel paint. would any of those look right for a carry around ignition box?  the flat red came to mind thinking of an old wooden tnt or dynamite box like you see on western movies but then that I don't have good sense for what looks right came back to mind 

anyway just asking for opinions to give me ideas.  the box had to be stripped and repainted because of all the rust.


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## Cogsy (Sep 26, 2019)

Personally I don't think ammo cans look right in any other colour than the original (dull) army green. Might just be me though.


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## werowance (Sep 26, 2019)

i can do army green. but didnt know where i was converting it to an ignition box if it would still look right.  but i guess in the end it will still look like an ammo can.


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## werowance (Oct 1, 2019)

about to get the can cleaned up and mocked up the battery and coil location.  im going to try to 3d print the top and bottom inserts to hold things in place.  i will have to glue / screw the insert parts together.   basicly the top and bottom insert will be identical.  i will print risers or support stilts and screw/glue the top and bottom pieces together with about maybe 6 inches apart.  i will then silicon glue the insert to the inside of the can.  or at least this is what i hope to accomplish.

the 3 - 3d print images below are the 3 parts to make the top or bottom insert.  my 3d printer bed isnt large enough to do the whole print as one. 

now lets hope when i get home i have enough filament left to do the prints


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## CFLBob (Oct 1, 2019)

That's an interesting idea - 3D printing the dividers/supports for the parts.  Is that a printer you built or a store bought? 

Like (I guess) a lot of us, I've been on the fence about buying one of those for a long time.


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## werowance (Oct 1, 2019)

one I bought from a guy here at work.  I work in I.T. so we sometimes trade computers and such around.  in this case I bought for 100.00.  its an xyz davinci jr. 1.0 3d printer.  it does ok but I have some complaints about it.  1. you are tied to the filament from xyz because the "chip" the roll so you can only buy it from them.  2. the bed or print area is a little small.  just under 6x6x6 inches.   but for 100.00 us I really cant say I got cheated.  they say there is even a laser engraver head for it but have not looked for or priced it yet.
ive made a few usefull things with it.  one was an oil filter wrench.  the kind like you use with a ratchet on the bottom of the filter kind of like a large socket.


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## CFLBob (Oct 1, 2019)

That's one of the printers I've looked at a few times, but I didn't know about them chipping the filament like the way they chip printer inks.  

Lately, I've been focused on the Creality Ender, like this one:
https://smile.amazon.com/Comgrow-Creality-Ender-Aluminum-220x220x250mm/dp/B07BR3F9N6

Only I'd like to have one that could accommodate a laser scanner to make 3D models of some piece of metal I might need to copy.  They're still pretty expensive.


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## werowance (Oct 1, 2019)

That one looks nice.  I thought the scanners were not part of the printer.  just an external 3d scanner that puts it into a cad software - or converts the scan into an stl format?   then you print the stl file?  and I'm asking not saying because I have very little experience with 3d printing.  just what little playing around I have had with mine is all.


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## CFLBob (Oct 1, 2019)

It's probably not the cheapest way to get a scanner, but I remember seeing a da vinci printer that also had a scanner.  I think it was this one.  Quite a lot more than the other one.  Also it says it takes 3rd party filaments.
https://smile.amazon.com/XYZprinting-Wireless-7-8x7-8x7-5-Upgradable-Filaments/dp/B01EY6OQXC


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## awake (Oct 1, 2019)

Depending on what you want to scan, you might look into photogrammetry software - including some free/open source options. This type of software uses a series of pictures taken on any device to generate a 3d model - which is essentially what the scanners do, but in a somewhat more controlled environment.


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## werowance (Oct 2, 2019)

some pictures of the 3 parts during print and the outcome.  was thnking about doing an aluminum sheet metal skin for the top plate and glue it on then brass screws around the perimiter.  thought that might look good and give it rigidity as well.

i did low infill so i didnt waste so much filiment.  even at that each piece is very strong.  the infill is where it does like a honeycomb effect for the innards of the prints.

first pic is the 3 pieces layed together





second is a pic during printing showing the honeycomb infill


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## JohnBDownunder (Oct 3, 2019)

Hi Werowance,
   Just a thought on the chip and filament spool.   Is it possible to wind third party filament on to an empty spool? Or have they set it up somehow to recognise the amount used???? Winding filament would be a bit of fluffing about tho. 
     I detest printers of any variety that insist on only using their propriety brand consumables - (Which is likely where they make their money. Think Safety razors??|)
John B


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## werowance (Oct 3, 2019)

you can get a little bit more out of re-using an empty spool sometimes but the chip some how has a counter in it that turns itself off after so much printing.  my printer does have the older firmware where there is a hack using an android phone with nearfield communications to reset the chip.  but the reset can only be done so many times per chip so I am told. and I don't have an android phone to try it.   and I agree on the chips,  the reason I was even able to afford my lathe/mill combo is where I used to sell and refill toner as a side buisiness.  I used to on the really old toners reset the chips myself.  couldn't go back to 0 but I could got to 1 page count with them but then they (Lexmark and HP) got to the point where you couldn't touch the chips.


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## werowance (Oct 3, 2019)

Last night I got the 3 pieces glued together and with just a little sanding here and there it fit well in the bottom of the can.  so with that success I went back in and started the print of the identicle top plate pieces.  I hope get it sanded and glued together tonight and will then use it as a template to cut a piece of sheet aluminum to make "skin" for the top.   I used to have some really cool on / off swtiches.  kinda like the ones you used to see on scify movies with the flip of cover and the red light on them.  I hope I can find one would look good as the on of switch for this.


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## werowance (Oct 8, 2019)

some more progress on the insert for the ignition can.  the aluminum skin is rough right now but I will try to polish it more.  it was scrap and looked like it had been drug down a gravel road for 5 miles then thrown in the back of a construction truck and hauled around for 5 years before I got it. 

I also ran out of filament - or at least the chip says I am out even though there is at least 50 feet or more on the roll, but it wont let me use it.  wonder if I can use it as weedeater string?   anyway I cant print the stilts or legs for the 2 inserts and I ordered more filament last week but wont get it for at least 2 more weeks so I think I will pick up some wood dowels and just cut them to length and center drill a pilot hole for the screws.


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## awake (Oct 8, 2019)

I have to say, I am not impressed with this chip-limited-filament thing. It would be one thing if it were a Stratysys - then you're in Ferrari territory and expect to pay accordingly for parts. But a Davinci?? A nice enough printer, but nothing out of the ordinary in terms of features, and as you say, the jr. is quite small. And on top of that proprietary filament AND software (IIRC), so you have no flexibility to choose or tune.

CFLBob, I find that I use my 3d printer quite a lot, for a wide variety of things. The Creality's are generally seen as very good value for the money. OTOH, if you like building things, it is not at all hard to build one, and someone who can make a model ic engine can definitely make a 3d printer that will perform extremely well. A lot of the freely available plans on the internet are based on having access to a 3d printer to make parts for the printer - this is the "reprap" philosophy, after all - but I decided to go a different direction and see if I could make a well-functioning printer solely from wood, with no 3d printed parts. Below is a model showing most of the parts - apparently I don't have any pictures with me, but can take one this evening if there is any interest. Total cost to build was around $150.


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## CFLBob (Oct 8, 2019)

awake said:


> CFLBob, I find that I use my 3d printer quite a lot, for a wide variety of things. The Creality's are generally seen as very good value for the money. OTOH, if you like building things, it is not at all hard to build one, and someone who can make a model ic engine can definitely make a 3d printer that will perform extremely well.



I've been thinking about making one for a while.  I CNC converted my Grizzly and Sherline milling machines, and added the motors and electronics to a CNC-ready Sherline lathe so I've done similar stuff.  I've looked at the Reprap sites and thought it really doesn't look too hard.  That's when a guy I was talking with said, "you can by the Creality Ender 3 and have a printer cheaper than you can buy good parts for."  I see today they're asking $232 for the printer and two spools of filament.   That does lower the bar pretty close to what I could do it for.


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## awake (Oct 8, 2019)

Yes, you won't actually save much by making one yourself, unless you just happen to have some of the parts lying around. Costliest items were the stepper motors and the linear rods, as I recall. The $150 I quoted above depended on using "eBay specials" - and waiting for the subsequent shipping from the far east. I did include some "extras" that were not strictly necessary, such as a "full graphic" display / SD card slot / rotary knob input, and an inductance sensor for setting the z-height, but that sort of thing only added a few dollars. On the other hand, the $150 does not include buying a power supply, as I have access to all the ATX power supplies I can use.

With the benefit of experience and hindsight, there are a number of things I would improve if I were to do it over. In particular, my head mount and part-cooling fan is clunky, and I'd like to improve the bed mount and adjustment. But rather than re-do this one, my plan is eventually to build a larger capacity (400x400mm rather than the 300x300 of the current printer), fully enclosed, CoreXY style printer. I've worked up a design, and this one will use some printed parts, now that I have a 3d printer - some, but not as many as is often seen. I've gathered a lot of the parts for it, but just haven't found the time to put it ahead of other projects.

Sigh ... unfortunately my employer is not at all understanding of the priority of hobbies ...


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## CFLBob (Oct 8, 2019)

awake said:


> Sigh ... unfortunately my employer is not at all understanding of the priority of hobbies ...



I understand. 

I refer to being able to work on what I want when I want as "retiree privilege."  It includes going to cheap matinees when my wife and I are maybe two of 10 in the theater and going shopping when the stores are the emptiest.


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## awake (Oct 8, 2019)

I'm still about 8-10 years away from that privilege ... but it is starting to feel like it is not far off!


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## werowance (Oct 8, 2019)

this makes me think about my cnc router I built - its awefull and uses a dremel for the cutting head. but steppers, lead screws, linier bearings etc.  it is actually built from plans I purchased and is made from wood mostly.  I havnt used it in several years because it jams up a lot and then ruins whatever I have worked on for hours.  It was built before I had a lathe and mill.  I probably should revisit it and machine the parts in aluminum,  maybe I could get it working better.

and on the note of cnc routers, if I was looking for a nice easy way of making say a brass name plate for my Webster with my name and year built,  what would you all recommend for engraving or etching?

letter / number punches and I do not play well with each other and looks a mess when I try those.


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## awake (Oct 8, 2019)

Out of curiosity, what plans did you use?


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## CFLBob (Oct 8, 2019)

werowance said:


> and on the note of cnc routers, if I was looking for a nice easy way of making say a brass name plate for my Webster with my name and year built,  what would you all recommend for engraving or etching?



For engraving text, I use a freebie program called DeskEngrave.  It's an old (Windows XP) program that still works for me.  Takes either text you enter or a file and uses Windows fonts for the output.   More info at http://www.machinistblog.com/deskengrave/  (just a random web search - I don't know the site) 

For turning a jpeg into an engraving, I've used DeskProto, my CAM program.  I can combine them both into one piece of work, but it takes a bit of calculating because the two programs don't talk.  I use the file from DeskEngrave to do the text and DeskProto to do the figure. 

For example, the lower receiver for an AR-15 I built.


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## werowance (Oct 10, 2019)

awake said:


> Out of curiosity, what plans did you use?


back in I believe 2005 I bought the plans from hobbycnc.com which it appears is out of business. the plans were good but my bad craftsmanship is the problem with mine.


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## awake (Oct 10, 2019)

Interesting. Do you recall what sort of bearing system it used?


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## CFLBob (Oct 10, 2019)

HobbyCNC.com is still there.  https://hobbycnc.com/ 

The router plans are still there, although it looks a bit different from the print you did there:
https://hobbycnc.com/product/diy-cnc-router-plans/

The guy who started it up retired, and sold the business to a customer who vowed to keep it the same.


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## werowance (Oct 10, 2019)

awake said:


> Interesting. Do you recall what sort of bearing system it used?


 they were linier bearings in a plastic cage that run back and fourth on ground w1 drill rod.  the dremel up / down movement is nothing more than a piece of Plexiglas plastic riding in a slot on both sides.  kind of like a wood cigar box that has a sliding lid instead of a folding lid.


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## werowance (Oct 10, 2019)

CFLBob said:


> HobbyCNC.com is still there.  https://hobbycnc.com/
> 
> The router plans are still there, although it looks a bit different from the print you did there:
> https://hobbycnc.com/product/diy-cnc-router-plans/
> ...



well it sure is, yesterday when I tried to get there it kept failing this page cant be displayed.  maybe my internet or something. 

yes it sure is a whole different machine now.  the linear bearings mine used were similar (cheaper built) to this picture.  you just glued them in place in a hole drilled in the wood frame.  the 2 long w1 drill rods were also glued into their wood frame.    the main thing on mine is the up down sliding I guess its called tung and grove?  like the picture of this old wood box with the sliding lid, imagine the lid sliding back and fourth with a dremel mounted to it.  it just slides up and down in that frame that way.

I might get mine down off the shelf and blow the dust off of it this weekend and take some pictures.  but I hope to have my ignition box done this weekend and put this project in the finished engines post area.


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## awake (Oct 10, 2019)

Thanks! Sounds/looks like a pretty light weight design - probably not a matter of your building skills at all!


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## CFLBob (Oct 10, 2019)

werowance said:


> yes it sure is a whole different machine now. the linear bearings mine used were similar (cheaper built) to this picture. you just glued them in place in a hole drilled in the wood frame. the 2 long w1 drill rods were also glued into their wood frame. the main thing on mine is the up down sliding I guess its called tung and grove? like the picture of this old wood box with the sliding lid, imagine the lid sliding back and fourth with a dremel mounted to it. it just slides up and down in that frame that way.



Cool.  Yeah, I can picture exactly what you mean.  I would guess it would give you some side to side wobble as the wood wears, which the new design should take care of.  

I have this bad habit of thinking that everything has to be as accurate as a machine tool.  The sliding tongue and groove might be fine for woodworking.  In wood, 1/32" is pretty tight tolerance except in a handful of places (miter joints on picture frames, dovetails and a few more)  but 1/32 is a long way in terms of things like the Webster plans.


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## werowance (Oct 10, 2019)

when I built this one I was pretty into etching and building my own circuit boards.  photo resit developed then etched with ferric chloride.  back then I was looking at getting away from photo resist and doing cnc routed circuit boards for speed and ease not to mention all that expensive ferric chloride and what a mess it makes.  but it really never could do really small close traces and the results did not look professional so I went back to photo resist and ferric chloride.

then later I tried my hand at casting aluminum and used it to do some foam patterns.  which my castings never were very usable so I decided that machining from solid stock was just easier for me.  and here I am to today with my first running 4 stroke engine, a running vacume engine and a couple of running wobblers.  or at least I assume the one I gave my nephew is still running. - and its all mostly because of this web site and the people on it.


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## werowance (Oct 14, 2019)

finished up the battery ignition can.   I ended up using hammer tone oiled bronze color paint in order to hide all the rust pits in the metal.  it was very pitted after I sand blasted but the paint did a good job hiding the pits.  then after I did a test run of the engine.  in the video you will see the carb adapter fall off.  I re lock tighted it and its doing fine now.  later on in the day after a few runs and adjustments of the carb it was running nicely but then I noticed the 3 screws holding the head to the base and frame were coming loose and the head was kicking back and fourth with the cylinder.  so I will lock tight those tonight.

I guess I can call this build complete and post it in the completed engines forum right?


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## CFLBob (Oct 14, 2019)

Werowance, I've just got to add that your finishing skills - both getting the metal pretty and painting - are second to none.  The can looks great, as does the metal I can see. 

It sure looks done to me.


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## aka9950202 (Oct 15, 2019)

Great build. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.

Cheers, 
Andrew in Melbourne


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## werowance (Nov 4, 2019)

Bob, what program do you use to run your cnc?  I dusted my router off and had to load up another pc to run it last week and couldn't find the old windows program I used to use (cant even remember its name) so I started using linuxcnc to drive it.  desk engrave doesn't seem to generate usable code for linuxcnc as the simulated tool path and even with a test dry run it only does a roughly 45deg line and stops.  looked at some other text to gcode software and none of it was free that I could find.  pluss deskengrave only does 1 line of text right?  just wondering how well it worked for you and if you had any more insight or recommendations? 




CFLBob said:


> For engraving text, I use a freebie program called DeskEngrave.  It's an old (Windows XP) program that still works for me.  Takes either text you enter or a file and uses Windows fonts for the output.   More info at http://www.machinistblog.com/deskengrave/  (just a random web search - I don't know the site)
> 
> For turning a jpeg into an engraving, I've used DeskProto, my CAM program.  I can combine them both into one piece of work, but it takes a bit of calculating because the two programs don't talk.  I use the file from DeskEngrave to do the text and DeskProto to do the figure.
> 
> ...


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## CFLBob (Nov 4, 2019)

I've only used it with Mach3 on a Windows PC.  It seemed like pretty straightforward G-code.  I don't have a LinuxCNC machine at the moment, but I do have a G-Code test program I could look at.  I'll see if I can find a way to look at it. 

I've only used it for simple one line things.  I think I remember doing two lines by using two files.


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