# Overhaul of a 9" SB model "A"



## steamer

Good Morning,

I've begun the excercise in overhauling and modifying a 9" Southbend Model "A" long bed for use with small engine parts and clocks.  This will be a long thread I am sure.
The lathe came to me as a "freeby" from a family member. It looks ugly at the moment, but underneath it really is in pretty good shape.

Changes and additions will include:

New "T" slotted cross slide and leadscrew nut  
Full set of 3C collets ( I have most, but need a few) 
Albreicht Drill chuck 
Vertical milling slide  
High speed mill/drill spindle using 8mm WW collets 
Spindle indexing plate 
AXA tool mount to share tooling I have already with my "Big" lathe, 
Custom Faceplate 
Steady rest 
Fusee Cutting Jig
New roll around bench of proper height for the work to be done 
All new lubrication wicks.
Auxillary spindle drive for high speed spindle for "wheel cutting" and drilling.
Complete tear down , refurbish and paint.












Here's a couple of happy hours worth of work ona MLA cross slide casting....it's begun!
















Dave


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## steamer

Andy's castings machine "like buttah"... ;D


NICE iron!

Dave


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## BillC

I always thought that the MLA cross slide was a very good addition to a lathe. Seems that the far side of the 'normal' cross slide was sort of a waste of good usable space for additional tooling or fixturing. It makes the machine so much more versatile. The back cutoff set-up is one of the benefits...

An old 12" Atlas Craftsman became available a few years ago (no comparison to a SB) so I bought it and began setting it up. I noticed right away that machining toward the headstock was not quite the same as machining away from the headstock. The saddle was removed and scrutinized this way and that, and I found that the saddle wings had warped. The four legged stool syndrome - teeter totter - by about .050" as I recall. Never could understand why except that there were loose slide clamps to free it up - in one direction...So, Atlas used green castings! I believe the reasons for a company's demise will eventually surface - they were producing lathes to a price rather than any sign of quality....I repaired it, put needle bearings in the jockey clutch shaft (underdrive) so lubrication did some good, fixed some other things on the machine, used it for a while and sold it! 

 You'll have a good stout lathe when you're finished with it - a lathe with a pedigree and then some!

BillC.


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## steamer

Thanks Bill,

I'm counting on it. I have a few lathes, My 12" Logan is my "go to" lathe for just about everything, but I'd like one that is set up for small work....this one came to me, so SB it is!

Dave

Oh and yea...gotta put the compound lock screws in too....


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## BillC

I like cast iron! I finally gathered up what I would need to 'graduate' to cast iron in my foundry and it was the best thing I ever did. The only thing is that it takes a bit more intestinal fortitude to step up to a seething white hot crucible of 40 lbs of cast iron! I melt a little less frequently nowadays but I made use of cast iron for many, many projects and replacement parts. I made a taper attachment for that 12" Atlas...of (green) cast iron but it machined very nicely... I used radiator and boiler iron scrap - it pours like aluminum....just a darned site hotter!

BillC


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## steamer

All done except for the dovetails...those come next, but I need to take the existing table off first and measure it....I'll need some good dowel pins first.

After that I'll scrape the bottom of the dovetail to the surface plate and the guiding parts to the saddle. 





















Dave


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## Groomengineering

Looks good Dave! I have the same cross-slide and it's handy, handy, handy. Thm:

Cheers

Jeff


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## steamer

Thanks for the interest and support Jeff!

I am having an issue with my Mill.  It would appear that the table has a bit of a hump in it. This happens with old mills as the T-slots have been repeatedly reefed on, it compresses the iron in the T slots facing the wings of the T-nuts.  When this happens , the metal has no where to go by sideways.  If you don't believe it, take a Ruby red block eraser and draw a grid on the side of it with a pen. Then squeeze it, and watch it grow in the other direction.

Anyway, my cross slide has about .002" bow to it now.  I am currently scraping the bottom to my surface plate to correct that.  Then I will scrape the top flat and parallel to the bottom at the ends only.

Next I'll mount the cross slide back on the mill resting on parallels and writing paper strips as packing to bridge the hump and minimize the distortion. Then, I'll cut the dovetails. Any distortion left will be scraped out during fitting to the saddle of the lathe.


Dave


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## Groomengineering

Not to get too far off topic, but it could be worse...





The planer vise that came with my shaper




Ouch!

A bigger hammer never does t-slots any good 
I'll post a repair thread if I ever get it done :

Cheers

Jeff


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## peatoluser

Much as i love reading the model building threads, I have a great admiration for craftsman with the skill and patience to restore old machine tools.
I look forward to following your progress. from the pictures of your waltham lathe restoration, you certainly have some skill with a scraper.
one question tho, what is a fusee cutting jig?

yours

peter


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## steamer

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your kind words and support!

I have had a great deal of fun with the Waltham, and thus far with the SB. It's been a challenge!

I appreciate your comments, and I try make myself better . I will say that I have a mear thimball full of skill compared to some I know or have known, and certainly that is the case with many of my peers and heros on this forum!

Thank you again, and I'll keep posting.

Now to your other question.

To understand a Fusee cutting jig, one must first understand what the hell a Fusee is...

A Fusee is a mechanical drum of varying diameter but with a constant pitch screw thread.

The diameter is typically a parabolic function from one end to the other.

What's it used for?

A Fusee is used in conjunction with a spiral spring in clock. A spiral spring has varying torque as a function of the number of turns it is wound. Used as is, the clock is driven at first with a lot of torque, then as the spring is unwound, with less torque. This change in torque can be significant! The result is a variation in the rate that the clock keeps time...first too fast, then too slow.

So What to do?

Well some clever person decided to connect the spring barrel to a variable pulley by way of a chain or wire such that the torque is reduced when the spring is wound tight, and increased when the spring is wound down. If the diameter of the fusee changes appropriately, the torque remains , more or less , constant.


Now, a fusee cutting jig consists of a bracket that mounts to the cross slide. On this bracket is a swinging arm with a lathe tool at the end of it.

To make the Fusee, first the parabolic shape is determined and cut into the fusee blank...a drum if you will with a small diameter at one end and a big diameter at the other with a parabola connecting the two.

NOW you get to cut a thread on the OD of this!...usually 12 pitch.  But how?

Bring the jig in and swing the arm down to the fusee surface and start the lathe in thread cutting mode.

As it turns, push down on the lathe tool with your hand so it follows the surface and starts to cut the thread.

Add a little pressure where it cuts shallow, and avoid cutting the area's that are deep enough.

After several passes, your "thread" is complete except for polishing, ect.


For further information on the subject, check out W.R. Smiths books especially "Workshop techniques for clock and model makers"  He goes through the building of all kinds of cool items....some work real well with engine making ( miniature to full size ;D) too.

Thanks,

Dave

Here's a for instance......this guy sells ready made parts for clocks...including Fusee blanks

http://clockmaking-brass.co.uk/fusee_blank.htm


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## steamer

Oh and hey Bill....OUCH is right!

Start up a thread on that....I'd bet there are a few lathes and mills out that with chunks missing that could benefit from your experience.

Dave


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## peatoluser

Thanks for the clear explanation Dave. I'll have to add that book to my wants list. 

yours 
Peter


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## steamer

Next I'll mount the cross slide back on the mill resting on parallels and writing paper strips as packing to bridge the hump and minimize the distortion. Then, I'll cut the dovetails. Any distortion left will be scraped out during fitting to the saddle of the lathe.





Well, got that part done... I still need to cut the dovetails, but the set up is ready. Need to make some gage pins and get some 3/8 pins for checking.  The .6875 hole for the leadscrew nut is right on, on the new one, but undersize on the old one...so to gage , I'll need to make two gage pins to fit the old table and one for the new table.....lathe work

Once I have that I can cut the guiding dovetail to a nominal dimension from the leadscrew nut. That will line up the leadscrew/ leadnut , then I'll cut the gibbed side to roll dimensions copied from the old table.   Then make a new longer gib.  Lastly, I'll scrape the table for bearing with the lathe..

Dave


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## steamer

New "T" slotted cross slide and leadscrew nut  
Full set of 3C collets ( I have most, but need a few) 
Albreicht Drill chuck  
Vertical milling slide  
High speed mill/drill spindle using 8mm WW collets 
Spindle indexing plate  Create spindle adapter for Existing Aciera F1 dividing head ( sketched up)
AXA tool mount to share tooling I have already with my "Big" lathe, 
Custom Faceplate 
Steady rest 
Fusee Cutting Jig
New roll around bench of proper height for the work to be done 
All new lubrication wicks. I bought the rebuild kit with wicks
Auxillary spindle drive for high speed spindle for "wheel cutting" and drilling.
Complete tear down , refurbish and paint.



I've scored a bunch of the list from "the bay"  I'll buy paint this week from tractor supply

From Pat Blacks Hendy restoration  in quarts and decimal fractions of quarts


0.75 Ford Gray 3449619
2.00 Black 3449407
1.00 Oliver Green 3449708
0.25 New Holland Yellow 3449960

Tore down the tailstock today and degreased and wire brushed the paint.  It appears the lathe was crudely repainted at some point in it's life...the "new" paint is soft and comes right off, the original paint is much tougher.

Polished the TS hand wheel, degreased the screw and quill, cleaned up the rust which was superficial ....note to tell family members to not pressure wash lathes! :

Dave


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## steamer

Well, I've completed the major machining to the T-slotted cross slide.  Here's the pictures.










Here is the first dimension that needed to be copied  .134 from a 3/8" roll





Here's the second dimension that needed to be matched 1.435 between .250 dia. Rolls





Here it is on the lathe. The new nut is very tight.  I'll investigate, but it appears to be against the guiding dovetail without binding...as intended.






Next, I'll relieve the fit of the leadscrew nut as it is very tight....then I'll drill and tap for gib screws and make a gib.


Dave


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## steamer

OK,

I've relieved the nut, actually the new nut is much wider than the original nut and the outside was rubbing on the saddle casting....a few strokes of a file fixed that problem

Now that the nail biteing part is over, a few observations.

The casting bowed a little bit after the dovetails went in.  Not a lot...maybe .001"

It shows up when its marked






I've only done two cycles here and then ends are filling in nicely. Its high at the ends and low in the middle Maybe I took off .0003" or so, so far

The iron cuts WONDERFULLY with no blow holes or inclusions.  NO hardspots

Again Andy, wonderful castings!

I'll have this roughed in by tonight on the flats....the bottom finish scraped by tomorrow sometime and then I'll check the saddle for wear using the new cross slide flats as a gage

Here's how the original cross slide marked up ...frosting and all.






Apples for apples, I am less than impressed.  It has a little wear, but not that much and all the flaking is showing.  

Anyway....we progress.

Dave


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## steamer

OK after about 40 minutes of rough scraping, we're getting somewhere.











I'll start in on finish scraping. The difference being I'll stop working "zones" and start just cutting where the marks are. The back side edge is a little light, but I think it will come in pretty soon.

You'll notice that most of the marks are "Bullseye" marks and some are not.  Where the bullseye's are the center has no marking compound and is the true point of bearing.  The other marks are within the thickness of the medium of the bullseyes.  So you want to focus on the bullseyes only at first...the number of bullseyes will rise compared to the others
as you progress.  

Dave


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## steamer

OK...now to mark the saddle....checking only...I hope.








Dave


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## Maryak

Looking good Dave.......................you could get a job in a Roman bath house they were always on the lookout for good scrapers ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer

Well it was hot enuogh for a sauna today anyway!.... ;D


Here's the next steps and what I got done today.

All marked up






Ahhhhhhhh  not good!






The old table was run with old congealed oil and grit and it wore a groove in the saddle surfaces...even thought the flakeing is showing...it's there. It would appear the gib side let dirt in more readily than the guide side..as evidenced by the long lines on the sides of the bearing surfaces...these are the high areas..additionally the new table covers more of the saddle surface, so it sits on top of the unworn portions...they need to come down....after about a hour of work, here is where the flats only are.






Much better anyway....though still low near the front of the machine.  I won't touch the guide surfaces yet until I get the saddle off and verify it is clean and burr free...then I'll check alignment to make sure it is cutting concave and not convex....that will be later.

I'll leave it like this for now






I'll make up a gib and finish the two compound clamp screws...and then paint.

Next project after this....get the engine and boiler in the boat!

Dave


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## steamer

Tore down the tailstock today and stripped the paint off. It's been repainted at least once.  IT would appear that there some wear on the tailstock shoe.  I'll mark it up and measure the difference in center height before I get too concerned

It's a shame the shmuck didn't clean and oil it at least every once in a while 


We Progress.

Dave


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## steamer

Looky what I found!  Factory bench for the 4 1/2'  in good shape for reasonable money.






Ahhh time for the happy dance!

Dave


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## steamer

Took stock of the motor. The shaft was worn -.010, and the seized ball bearing on that end was worn +.010"
IT STILL RUNS!

...time to get a new motor! :big:


The counter shaft assembly was disassembled and cleaned. I found the shaft -.010 and the cast iron bore about +.005"  The bore was lubricated with a felt wick which is now the consistancy of formica.   Time to correct all this.


I turned a new shaft from mild steel.  7/8" x 12" long....easy enough

I'll need a taper pin reamer to put the pulley back on....I'll figuire that one out and order the taper pin reamer.

I'll bore/ream out the countershaft casting and sleeve with bronze bushings....I haven't figuired that one out completely...yet.  Then fit it with oil cups and new wicks.

That should last another 50 years easy....I'll post some pictures when I can ....

Dave


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## steamer

Well, the bores for the countershafts are done.  I did it with a between centers boring bar and a made up boring table.  I installed Oilite bronze bushings in place of the worn cast iron along with a new shaft that I made yesterday...here's some photo's











In the next picture I have a stub shaft in the headstock the same size as the existing bore. When the part was shimmed to the correct height, the pin would slip right in. I centerd the other end with the TS center.
































All Better!  ;D

Dave


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## steamer

Got the paint stripper today. I'm not much looking forward to this part

I've been told that a product called "Citristrip" is the way to go, so I got that at the ORANGE BOX store.
(Home Depot to you not from the states)

We'll see

I'll need to make up some oil cups for the counter shaft too.

Dave


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## steamer

The Citristrip works well!  Got the countershaft parts, the compound, and the steady rest striped in about 1 1/2 hours.   WHAT A MESS!!!!  Make sure to do it outside!
Had to take the staked hinge pins out of the steady to really clean it.  I'll make new pins after I paint it.


I'll take some photo's if anyone is interested.



Dave


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## Rayanth

I'd be interested in before/afters of the paint stripping. we have this thoroughly nasty stuff at work called I think Turpco, designed to strip enamel and primer from jets, and skin from bones... I'd be interested in a something a little safer -)

- Ryan


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## steamer

OK I'll see what I can do. I striped the countershaft bracket, shown in previous post. It went down to bare iron.  I've already primed it, so no photo there

Took about 1/2 hour.  


Dave


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## steamer

I rescraped the base of the tailstock for bearing with the bed. I used the extreme right end of the bed as it's probably least worn.  What I found was the shoe worn in "rocking chair" form.  High in the middle and low at the ends like a rocking chair rocker. This comes from moving the tailstock back and forth for movement along the length of the bed.  It doesn't help if the ways are dirty as it like dragging it on a file.  I'll put some felts on the shoe once I'm done.

Now that the shoe sits down on the ways and stays put ...without rocking, I'll check to see if the quil is parallel ot the HS axis in both planes . Then I'll check to see how low the TS spindle is compared to the HS spindle. 

If it's more than say .001-.002 low, I'll put in a pair of pads and remachine the top of the shoe to bring it back up to 0-.001" high.  Like new.

Or I could make a new quill and remachine the bore offset from the quil centerline.....I'll think about it.

Dave



Dave


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## rkepler

steamer  said:
			
		

> Now that the shoe sits down on the ways and stays put ...without rocking, I'll check to see if the quil is parallel ot the HS axis in both planes . Then I'll check to see how low the TS spindle is compared to the HS spindle.
> 
> If it's more than say .001-.002 low, I'll put in a pair of pads and remachine the top of the shoe to bring it back up to 0-.001" high. Like new.



I'd check that the top of the tailstock base is parallel with the bed both ways, then check the quill for parallel and height. Likely it's going to be fairly low, the easiest fix for that is to put a shim between the base and top casting. If you're a little bit crazy you can rebore the top casting, hone it and fit an oversize quill all to bring it up a few thousandths.

My lathe's tailstock was .007 low after scraping it for level and contact. I had to put a little relief in the counterbores for the adjustment screws when they were lifted by the shim.


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## steamer

Hi rkepler,

I really don't want shim stock under the body. I'd rather put in a pad and remachine the shoe.

I'll check yaw and scrape the V to straighten it out, but pitch I can take out with the pads I mentioned. I'll leave the central guide for use in offsetting the tailstock for taper as is.

I have a ready supply of iron...If it gets out of hand, I'll whittle out a new shoe.  But I'm reasonably confident I can scrape this in

To your point though, I'll do a thorough check of the quil for if it's worn out too, That will have to be fixed and I might as well fix two things at once.

I've seen the taper socket put in off center to correct for wear.  
Dave


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## steamer

Here's some shots of the set up to put the cross hole in the new counter shaft with my lathe mounted cross drilling fixture.






Here's a shot of the stripped compound....you can compare it to the unstripped on earlier in this thread.






And some of the TS shoe effort thus far




























Dave


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## TroyO

Dave,

Thanks for taking us all along for the ride. I'm learning a ton as I read along..... info that will come in handy for sure.

I may have to take a "real" shot at scrapping some day.... I did some on my Mini mill, but it was emergency grade "Just get the d&*(^@#$%&mn thing to slide all the way from one end to the other" kind of project, LOL. (But hey, it did work no matter how gross my technique.)

Anyway, good luck continuing on with the lathe and thanks again for sharing the info!

Troy


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## steamer

Troy,

Thanks for your interest and support!

I'm wading in slowly, but deliberately.  I am not the most experienced scraper hand, but so far the work required has been pretty easy.

I am trusting the bed, which still looks good ...really is good.

The rest I think is manageable.

Dave


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## steamer

Well went to sweep the tailstock quill and got stopped in my tracks

The machine has been apart and "expertly" reassembled... : Only one headstock clamp is tight.

What is under the headstock?  ONLY THE SHADOW KNOWS!. ;D

I won't trust that much...but I'll check for taper using the carriage.

Gotta be careful with the archaeological digs.....otherwise large boulders coming rolling down....so to speak. :

By the looks of it, it's been that way for a while.....the gear guard is chafing on the spindle because the HS is not positioned correctly on the bed.

Cue the Indiana Jones Music.

Dave


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## steamer

rkepler  said:
			
		

> I'd check that the top of the tailstock base is parallel with the bed both ways, then check the quill for parallel and height. Likely it's going to be fairly low, the easiest fix for that is to put a shim between the base and top casting. If you're a little bit crazy you can rebore the top casting, hone it and fit an oversize quill all to bring it up a few thousandths.
> 
> My lathe's tailstock was .007 low after scraping it for level and contact. I had to put a little relief in the counterbores for the adjustment screws when they were lifted by the shim.




By the way...nice looking Monarch 10EE!

http://www.kepler-eng.com/

Dave


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## rkepler

steamer  said:
			
		

> By the way...nice looking Monarch 10EE



Thanks, it was a lot of work - and I 'cheated' by having the bed professionally ground. That gave me a good datum for everything else and a good beginning for a rebuild novice. They're very nice lathes and quite available anymore if you're willing to put some work into it. It is nice to have a lathe that can take .0001 off (I once rounded the ends of a friend's lathe secondary shafts - a sharp tool took off just enough) to honkin' big cuts (after getting the drive working I started to see how far I could go in a cut - stopped at .016 feed on an .125 DOC in 2" A2 and the drive still wasn't noticing it, just a little grunt when the tool hit the work).

I probably should put up a new picture, it's no shop queen and is my main lathe. Since the rebuild it's made several steam engines and a 1.5" scale 3 truck Shay.

BTW: I used the tailstock base as the mount for an indicator scraping in the headstock (used a ground rod with 12 Jarno taper), it was faster than using the heavy saddle. After everything else was done I had to make new tailstock quills and quill assemblies, everything was pretty much gone. I made a 1/2-8 LH ACME tap to tap the 2" nut, a friend made a couple of screws. As long as I was making a quill I made a second in MT3, there's not enough meat in the quill for it to be used in production but for the times I need a 3MT it's perfect.


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## crab

Hi Dave,thank you very much for posting this and showing your outstanding work.I have a SB 9A UMD that hopefully just needs refurbishing.I know the history of the lathe since it was new and it has not had much use.I am going to fallow this thread closely as I am learning a lot.
Crab


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## steamer

Hi Crab,

Thank you for your kind comments and support!

I will be wading into this slowly.  I will attempt to be logical about it.

I will do my best not to make too many mistakes...but at least you can learn from those too I suppose. ;D

Regards,

Dave


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## steamer

Tonights activities

After doing battle with the lawn.....forest lately!....I got a hour or so in tonight
Center drill





Drill and ream










All done with my lathe specific cross drilling fixture specifically made to put holes on center on shafts.

OK all reamed RIGHT ON CENTER!  woohoo1

Problem...

The original pulley hole was not put in on center! :wall: :wall:

OK I can regroup and make the hole deep enough to accomodate the eccentricity.......and get A (1) new pin to replace the old one which I am sure will not fit! :fan:

Lesson to you SB'ers out there....do not assume!  :

Dave


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## steamer

rkepler  said:
			
		

> Thanks, it was a lot of work - and I 'cheated' by having the bed professionally ground. That gave me a good datum for everything else and a good beginning for a rebuild novice. They're very nice lathes and quite available anymore if you're willing to put some work into it. It is nice to have a lathe that can take .0001 off (I once rounded the ends of a friend's lathe secondary shafts - a sharp tool took off just enough) to honkin' big cuts (after getting the drive working I started to see how far I could go in a cut - stopped at .016 feed on an .125 DOC in 2" A2 and the drive still wasn't noticing it, just a little grunt when the tool hit the work).
> 
> I probably should put up a new picture, it's no shop queen and is my main lathe. Since the rebuild it's made several steam engines and a 1.5" scale 3 truck Shay.
> 
> BTW: I used the tailstock base as the mount for an indicator scraping in the headstock (used a ground rod with 12 Jarno taper), it was faster than using the heavy saddle. After everything else was done I had to make new tailstock quills and quill assemblies, everything was pretty much gone. I made a 1/2-8 LH ACME tap to tap the 2" nut, a friend made a couple of screws. As long as I was making a quill I made a second in MT3, there's not enough meat in the quill for it to be used in production but for the times I need a 3MT it's perfect.



rKepler,

Thanks for your interest and support.  

I am suprised that the 10EE has only a #2 MT? I would think maybe a #4 would be more in keeping with the rugged nature of the 10EE.

Dave


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## steamer

New "T" slotted cross slide and leadscrew nut   
Full set of 3C collets ( I have most, but need a few) 
Albreicht Drill chuck   
Vertical milling slide  
High speed mill/drill spindle using 8mm WW collets 
Spindle indexing plate  Create spindle adapter for Existing Aciera F1 dividing head ( sketched up)
AXA tool mount to share tooling I have already with my "Big" lathe, 
Custom Faceplate  
Steady rest  
Fusee Cutting Jig
New roll around bench of proper height for the work to be done  
All new lubrication wicks. I bought the rebuild kit with wicks
Auxillary spindle drive for high speed spindle for "wheel cutting" and drilling.
Complete tear down , refurbish and paint.


Bought a Tools4cheap faceplate for the SB9"  Threaded right on and has lots of tapped holes which are 5/16-18  I will probably retap them to 3/8-16 as most of my straps are that thread.

http://www.tools4cheap.net/proddetail.php?prod=faceplate

Additionally, I've got a good start on a high speed spindle.











I plan to make a new body to house the spindle and bearings. This body will mount on my AXA toolpost and bring the spindle on center with both lathes ( Logan and SB)

I'll be running it with a 1/4 HP motor.

Dave


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## steamer

Scored the new motor....may need a mount plate, but we can sort that.

Dave


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## ttrikalin

looks just like the one in my 10K.
good find.

take care, 
tom in MA


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## ttrikalin

btw dave, 
did you paint/plan to paint during the restoration?

I did my 10K recently. Used industrial grade paint from Bejamin Moore. But the paint is not fully cured yet after a couple of months... I was told it'll take time to cure without baking it, but still... 

what will you paint it with -- if you plan that is... 

take care, 

tom in MA


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## steamer

Hi Tom

Ben Moore Industrial Alkyd enamel.  My version of Moss Green.

I've primed a few parts already.  The primer needs thinner if your going to brush.

The primer has set up just fine. I have not tried to paint it yet.  I would get a hardener if they were'nt cyano compounds.

Hmmmmm....got me nervous now. I'll start by painting 1 part and see how it goes.

However, I did my F.E. Reed with it years ago, and it was fabulous!





And no, that is not the green....much darker!

Thanks for the heads up!

Dave


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## steamer

More like this color....I hope..


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/hendey-14-6-tie-bar-rehab-172446/


Dave


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## steamer

Painted some of the parts tonight.  The Countershaft casting and base, the compound, the countershaft pulley, and the steadyrest.

The color is a bit lighter than Mr Blacks, but it doesn't seem bad to me.

I didn't fill my castings......I just painted the clean castings.

Once I get the second coat on, I'll take some photo's and you'se guys and critique!... ;D

Good thing about paint...it's easy to make go away

Dave


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## vedoula

yes, please I'd like to see photos!

take care,
tom in MA


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## ttrikalin

vedoula  said:
			
		

> yes, please I'd like to see photos!
> 
> take care,
> tom in MA



Duh -- posted from my wife's account (vedoula).


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## steamer

I was wondering.... ;D


....and your wife has an account?!....COOL!

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

yep, anastasia is a keeper! Thm:

tom


----------



## steamer

AND she's named ANASTASIA!.....oh man!

Some guys get all the luck.....Glad for you ;D


----------



## steamer

Well , the color is OK...but to your point Tom....very tacky 12 hours later....I'll let it all sit in the sun for a while.

It is not behaving as I remember the last batch.

Dave


----------



## metalmad

Hi Dave
I sure hope that paint goes off 
Its happend to me using old paint after taking a lot of care with something and the paint never went hard
Pete


----------



## steamer

And this is brand new paint!  hmmmm Rustoleum is sounding better all the time.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

​my experience too. 
My tailstock I left in the sun many times, and it is dried OK but not very hard. I could scratch it if i wanted to... 


Anyhow, we are not sunny in MA today though, are we...

tom


----------



## steamer

NO!  Heading to NH for the day.....I just packed it all up.

Looked at the color some more....needs to be darker.....

I think I'll retreat and regroup....after a cook out and some libation. ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well after long thought.....and much libation with good friends. ;D....I think I'll drop back and punt.

I'll let the current paint dry for another day.....and change over to Rustoleum....probably in gray.

Although I want the lathe to look nice....I'm not looking for a shop queen.  I'm looking for a dedicated small work lathe.

Gotta watch the scope creep..... ;D

Dave 

P.S. I haven't tried the TS paints because they will not ship and the nearest store is 30 miles out of my way.


----------



## steamer

Have I mentioned I love Rustoleum?  Gloss smoke gray, Protective Enamel from Home Depot,  flows on nice, covers and brush strokes level out.

I will put two coats on....but I'll let the first coat dry for a couple days and give it a once over with paper.

We progress

I was cleaning the gear cover with some Acetone and a hand painted identification ..in red paint..poped up under a splash of black spray paint that came right off.

I'll take a photo before I remove it...makes me want to find out who owned it originally.
I'd bet a trade school shop...the ID seemed like it indicated a row and a machine number.


Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Ah, you did the best thing.
I wish I had switched to Rustoleum from the get go.

Please post photos.

Take care, 
tom in ma


----------



## steamer

Here's a couple of before shots...showing the markings and the general state of the existing paint.












and some painted

























Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Ah, nice work.

much better than mine... 

keep up the excellent work, 

tom in MA


----------



## steamer

It's already dry to the touch!....I'll let it harden for a couple of days, and then lightly sand and recoat.

Meanwhile...more cleaning and getting other parts repaired and or painted.

Dave


----------



## crab

Looks great Dave.You can't go wrong with Rustoleum!
 Crab


----------



## Maryak

Move over Picasso ;D


----------



## metalmad

nice one Dave 
I may use a similar colour when I get around to painting my lathe 
Pete


----------



## steamer

Crab, Bob, and Pete,

Thankyou for your interest and support! 

This is going to be a long one. It's a lot of work to do this and it must be done in stages to keep the parts 
organized. Some of the screw threads are a little oddball ( #12-28 was popular at SB apparently) so you have to be careful where the screws go as they are hard to get.

Today, I'll check the tailstock base for wear ....namely how low is it?

To do that I'll need to remove the Headstock and clean under it, and then re-install  Remember in my previous post I found that the HS had been removed and then replaced incorrectly...with 1 clamp not even snug!...I'll need to remove it to clean underneath and inspect the bearing surfaces.  Once I determine they are clean and undamaged by the hamfisted dope who did this....I'll trust the HS as a gauge to check the TS.

I may want to do this at a couple places along the bed and get an idea on how much bed wear I really have.

Then I guess it's time to address the wear in the tailstock base if it's unacceptable....or what ever else I dig up

In between there's always painting.....and cleaning the shop! :

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Move over Picasso ;D



good one

 :big:


----------



## steamer

At least it wasn't a VanGogh reference...I get to keep my ear.

You like my well worn table don't ya Bob.....for a small price...I'll frame it and send it to you!

I call it "Machine Lillys in summer"

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK...best I can measure at the moment, the tailstock quill is .018 low and pointing downward with a slope of .005" /2" or .0025" per inch.  That works out to about .015 over the length of the tailstock base! 
So for a total of .015+.018 or .033"!
We got some repair work to do...I took some pictures...I'll post later.

I'll temporarily shim the tailstock base to level it and confirm the dimensions.  

I'm beginning to think a new shoe/base might be faster than trying to fix this one!
I'll check my stock...but "Norm" could hog one of these out pretty damn quick........

Thoughts?

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK all the taper is in the front of the tailstock....or at least nearly all.

I added a .017 shim and it's close.  It is also pointing about .0025/1" towards the rear of the machine

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

who's "Norm"?


----------



## mklotz

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> who's "Norm"?



Some of us like to name our tools. I'm guessing Dave has a van NORMan mill.

My mill is named 'Cecil' because we all know Cecil B. DeMille.


----------



## ttrikalin

mklotz  said:
			
		

> My mill is named 'Cecil' because we all know Cecil B. DeMille.


----------



## steamer

Tom

Marv is correct.
Picture a short, stout tool and die maker with a greasy apron, a short cigar and a disposition to match!

"Norm" is a 1951 VanNorman #12 gear head mill with a 1.5 HP drive.

We have an agreement...I don't get in his way...and he doesn't kill me......it's worked well so far.

Dave


----------



## Tin Falcon

> Marv is correct.
> Picture a short, stout tool and die maker with a greasy apron, a short cigar and a disposition to match!


Sounds about right I do not remember you with a cigar though
LOL
Tin


----------



## steamer

Oh man!  I think I'm bleeding...


----------



## steamer

oh an Who's Cecil?   : ;D


----------



## steamer

I have stock to make a new base.  I am seriously considering it.

Reasons:

I don't realy want loose shims under the TS ...I would rather repair 

I could add plates to the top of the original base, but the casting is thin there and removing enough to get a .062
plate in would result in a thin part...and then how do I fix the plate? #2 flat head screws?

I could also machine and add plates to the bottom of the base in the flat and V's. Here I could use #8 screws, but I'm worried it would start moving around unless they were substantial, and again the casting is kinda thin.

I could just hog a new base out of a chunk of iron.  Cut the tongue to fit the TS bottom, then machine the flat and V in a holding fixture to machine them square to the tongue and to the correct depth. Then finish it by Scraping the base to the bed for bearing.


I'm leaning toward the last option

Thoughts?

Dave


----------



## Maryak

steamer  said:
			
		

> I could add plates to the top of the original base, but the casting is thin there and removing enough to get a .062
> plate in would result in a thin part...and then how do I fix the plate? #2 flat head screws?
> 
> I could also machine and add plates to the bottom of the base in the flat and V's. Here I could use #8 screws, but I'm worried it would start moving around unless they were substantial, and again the casting is kinda thin.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Dave



Maybe you could add the plates and screws but put Devcon between them. Over that surface area I'd be reasonably confident things wouldn't move about.

On a larger scale I have repaired triple expansion LP and IP valves by screwing cast iron plates onto the guides and machining back to tolerance so I know it works, they haven't moved in 12 and 6 years respectively. As you know, there's a lot of flanging about of big lumps inside the steam chests. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Well...first things first.

Setting the TS body and quil in the surface plate shows it's pointing down by about .004/2"

Now the why is eluding me at the moment

I checked the quil diameter and as best as I can measure with a mic, it MIGHT have about .0002" taper/out of roundness. When I clamp the quil, it repeats well, unclamped it's a bit loose fully extended, but there isn't much quil in the body when your at the 2" mark.  The taper looks good anyway, no scores.

I think the TS was droped at some point as I found a large burr on the bottom rear side near the offset indication mark. Though I stoned it off, I suspect that is the source of the .004" tip.

I put rolls in the vee's of the TS Base mounted up side down on the surface plate and there is .004" tip at the front, and it's even left to right

So there's half my drop (.004" + .004")

Connelly is being read up on right now.... :
We'll get the TS body sorted first....then see.
I don't see making a quil for it though unless I offset the taper to correct the height.....

Dave


----------



## Florian

Hey Dave

You are doing a nice job here! 
And it remembers me on the things i had to do on my schaublin...

But now, what kind of paint is that you use for touching up? I always was told that red is far less suitable for touching up than blue (because the blue is in a better contrast to the cast iron than red) but it looks like your paint was in an extremely good contrast to the cast iron!?? 

Or is it just because you use very much of it ? 

Florian


----------



## steamer

Actually I use it very thinly. The tailstock base shows some streaks, meaning its too heavy, but I was scouting trying to see just how bad it is....It's not good. :

The marking I use is by E. S. Dyjak company from Milford Michigan in the USA.

It comes in RED and YELLOW, and is water soluable.  It comes off your clothes!.. ;D

If you can still see all the features of the master under the marking, you PROBABLY put it on right.

I use a Brayer, which is a type of roller used by printers, to spread the marking medium.

With use you get the feel for how heavy to use. It depends on the situation of course....I use much thinner coating for a master than for rough scraping.

Dave


----------



## Florian

Hi Dave

Well, i also put more color for rough scraping and very few for the finish; that is all no problem, I also use a brayer and i think i have kind of a feeling how much color i need to put. 

Here some pictures from my lahte overhauling: 


















Fact is, that the color you use seems to be absolutely non transparent, is that right? 
The color i know is transparent and based on oil (and though needs to be cleaned with oil or thinner) 

The thing is, i often had problems with seeing the smallest spots when finishing a surface and had to put the right light in the right angle and sometimes even needed to use some white paper as a background. 

Maybe i find that color in europe aswell... 

Cheers Florian


----------



## steamer

For rough scraping, the Dyjak marking is very easy to see, and it is semi transparent...the flash on the camera makes it seem otherwise. As you know it can be difficult to photograph the mark up.
When it comes to "pin spotting" or finish scraping, though, I still need low angle light to see the real bearing spots

Below is an angle master I used on my Waltham lathe to rescrape the top slide. The next one show's the same master ready to use to mark the top slide with an appropriate coat of marking medium on it. You'll notice I can see through the marking in this case, as I was finish scraping the part.
The last is the marking medium itself, with label.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Florian,

Sometimes you need a little shadow too. It depends on the situatiion, but sometimes the light I use causes too much glare. Then I shadow the part with my hand or a piece of cardboard to get the correct light condition to see it right.


----------



## Florian

steamer  said:
			
		

> Sometimes you need a little shadow too.
> 
> 
> "sometimes the light I use causes too much glare."



Absolutely my experience and i also started to use cardboards to make a little shadow. 
But it looks like you have the same "Problems" as i have... 

Well then, i am not going to look for other paint... 8)

Anyway, happy scrapping! ;D

Cheers Florian


----------



## steamer

It does come out of the clothes easier...and you can actually wash it off your hands while with "Hi Spot" blue, you usually have to wait for it to wear off!  ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer

Yesterday, I started to correct the TS body "Tilt down" issue. First I checked the quill again.  I extended it to full travel and locked it, measured, and then retracted and extended it and locked it and measured.

I did this cycle 4 or 5 times. I got repeatable numbers.

I then extended the quill and wacked the end with a rubber mallet, first down, and measure, and then up an measure.  Within the measurement error of my stuff  probably .0002"...it didn't move

Conclusion:
All the tilt is in the body.

Checking the bottom of the body for bearing shows that the area that I had stoned and thought "pretty" flat wasn't at all! I have done a few step scrape cycles and it is coming down and the bearing is starting to fill in.
I did take some pictures....I'll post later......I've never been so damn busy while on "Vacation" in my life!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Paint update:

I put another coat of paint on the previously coated parts after a good rub with 180 grit.

They look good!....Rustoleum rules as far as I'm concerned.

Don't paint when its in the 90's (30C) as the paint sets up so fast the brush marks won't flow out.

Got a new SB belt guard for the lathe yesterday. Thanks Dave!  It already has a coat of paint on it, but will need another one.

The paint on the side of the can of Ben Moore is STILL wet by the way!

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

That's very good. 
referring to your Rustoleum experience.


----------



## steamer

Here's some pictures of the HS coming off....good thing I did...what a mess under there.


























I cleaned the taper out gently with a MT#3 reamer, it was nice and clean and no scores

Here's the new belt guard with a coat of paint on it.

More to come

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's the belt guard.






Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's how the TS started .....004" low towards the front











I'll post the process later

Dave


----------



## steamer

After checking the current state in the previous post, I marked up the bottom and found this






I had already done a few cycles to get it this good. It WAS bearing only on the top back side and the front

You'll notice the sides aren't bearing much at all, the rear is where I found the burr that indicates to me the TS body was dropped, probably on the floor off the end of the bed.

So I started in rough scraping and checking alignment by scraping only the back and when needed the sides.































Leading up to ...











or parallel to within about .0002"....I don't really believe that , but I can't measure any better than that, so I'll leave it be

Next is the TS base.  I'll verify the error so that I can figuire out what to do.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Oh and got my serial number card. She left the factory on 9/20/1951

Went to "Packard 170"  Whom they tell me was a dealer...but I don't know where.

She was originally 220, 3 phase, and had legs.

Dave


----------



## maverick

Dave,
I'm watching this thread with much more interest now that my SB is coming back from long term loan.
There will most likley something to fix that you have addressed. Thanks for the lessons and good work.

Mike


----------



## steamer

Well, Thanks Maverick.  I've got a long way to go on this one. 

The TS is low, for a few of reasons.

The base is worn. I KNOW this is the case...I just don't know how much, it's at least .004"

The TS Body was damaged.  I have just fixed that I may want to take a few more cycles on it to fill in the bearing on the sides, but I'm still working out the TS issues and I don't want it any lower than it is already

The Bed is worn by the HS?  I don't know about that yet, but I have to believe it is to some degree.

What I don't know ...yet...is how much each cause contributing!

Additionally, and this point needs to be taken into account by me. The lathe is just sitting on a bench at the moment
It isn't level or bolted down. Before any determination can be figuired about the lathe bed/ways, that will need to happen.  

I say this because I don't want any of you to just start willy nilly scraping away. You need to proceed with some planning and forethought.  If your going to tear into a lathe like this, get "Machine Tool Reconditioning" by Connelly.  It's pretty good!  Also understand, that there is way more to scraping than just grinding up an old file and push the material around. There is a lot of references and gauges required, to say nothing of some practiced skill. Some of these references you have to make! Don't take it lightly.  You will spend time and or money doing this.  Practice on something OTHER than a lathe first, like making some gauges. If you can tolerate doing that, you can think about touching up a lathe.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Oh, by the way, SB wants $340 for a new TS base. Had to ask. 

I would have to agree that the price..considering the work involved , is fair but It's way more than I want to spend at the moment.

It's also is not scraped but just machined, and they said it didn't need to be scraped, which I don't really believe.

The original was.

What I wanted was an original casting....I suppose a winning lottery ticket would also have been a fair request!
 :

Dave


----------



## Dan Rowe

Hi Dave,
I have been watching this with interest as I have a very old 13" Young lathe. I bought a copy of "Machine Tool Reconditioning" many years ago. At that time I realized that I did not have the time to make a proper job of it so I did a cosmetic clean and paint with minor repair.

Now watching your progress with the SB is making me think that I might start with some scraping practice.

Dan


----------



## steamer

If you don't mind work, it can be very relaxing....This is a scraping master I made for the Waltham re-build...No I haven't counted spots....







Dave


----------



## steamer

Got some finished stuff put together....so I can get it out of the way!






That looks better

Before:






After: Amazing what some cleaning up and paint can do!





The Steady had 4 coats of paint on it when I got it....I think I striped about a pound off the weight.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Based on the serial number card, I believe it looked like this when new






Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, I made up my mind today. I am going to make a new TS base for the SB. I cut some stock, and starting blazing away on old "Norm"  made great progress until the end mill pulled out .03 and scrapped the part
 :wall: :wall:

Well...At least I'm back to where I scrapped the first one.....I took some pictures, but got honeydo's todo.
I"ll post later

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's some pictures. The set up will be the same...just a little less aggressive this time  :

Here's the piece of stock






Hogging






All vacuumed up





About the time the end mill pulled...





Oh well...I'll repurpose the scrapped part as the base for a scraping master to scrape the top surface for bearing.

Dave


----------



## maverick

Too bad about the problem. Those Van Normans are known for this tendency. Had a go getter foreman years ago
that cranked up the feed on a guys setup to show him "how it should be done". You guessed it, the cutter pulled
out and grooved the table. He never did live it down. Better luck on the next one. 

Mike


----------



## ttrikalin

this will turn great. 

maverick or dave, 
what do you mean by "the endmill pulled"? 

it snags the part and lifts it, even if it's clamped?? because of too aggressive a cut?

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## maverick

Tom,
If the chip load high enough, the end mill can be pulled out of the collet due to the helix angle.
I've done it myself a time or two. I hope this explains it.

Mike


----------



## steamer

A drawback of the VN12 "C" collet is that the mill is really far stouter than the holding force of the collets it uses. They have a tendency to have the end mill get pulled down out of the collet. In this case about .03".

The effect is to deepen the cut, making the part undersize and scrapping it.

I should know better as I've had "Norm" for about 15 years....but you get greedy sometimes :

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

thanks both 

this explained it.


----------



## steamer

Here's what I had energy to do today.

Finding the edge of the part with some smoking paper....YES smoking paper. It's a very consistant .0008-.001 in thickness...when it's grabbed out of your fingers, you know where you are.




cutting the top relief pocket





Cutting the clamp bolt pass through hole





Here is where it is so far compared to the original part








The tailstock fits nice!









Nice and snug. Picks up the base with a wringing fit.

Next I'll flip it over and carve out the pocket on the other side. Then I'll cut the tapered end and offset indicator.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

impressive. 

it would take me a full weekend of cutting on the sherline to never get this close  

it's nice to have a big mill...

tom in MA


----------



## mgbrv8

"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"


What model Van Norman mill do you have? I have a 22L. How do you like yours?

Dave


----------



## steamer

It's a VN 12.  1951-53 vintage.

I put a new electrical system in it. It was from the factory 220 single phase. 
still is, but I moved the controls up onto a boom and seperated the feed from the spindle start.

Dave

PS Thanks to Steve Huck and the forum for the electrical help!


----------



## steamer

I've grown fond of old Norm. He's a little past his prime, but still does good work to a couple thou or so.

For fussy stuff, I use my little mill, but it's too small for this job.

Dave


----------



## steamer

maverick  said:
			
		

> Too bad about the problem. Those Van Normans are known for this tendency. Had a go getter foreman years ago
> that cranked up the feed on a guys setup to show him "how it should be done". You guessed it, the cutter pulled
> out and grooved the table. He never did live it down. Better luck on the next one.
> 
> Mike



HI Mike, 
Thanks for the interest and support!
Only 1 scar of shame on my table.....and yes I know how it got there.... : :big:

Dave


----------



## mgbrv8

Im not trying to get too off topic but one of my long term projects for my Van Norman mill is mounting a small Bridgeport head on my horizontal mill arbor support rod like the one in the picture I have attached. I wonder if you could do the same on the VN 12?

Dave


----------



## steamer

Probably could, I do miss the lack of a quill. However, it does do somethings better than a Bridgeport...but I do miss the quill..and the cheap tooling....and the clearance over the table....and longer table travel...and about a half a dozen other things... ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer

Alright....sweated my )#&*(*@ off in the shop today to accomplish the following, but I'm nearly done.

Flipping the part to machine the back






Machining the center relief





Moving the ram back to make the angle cuts





Tramming the 45 degree angle to the sine bar





Vee cut


----------



## steamer

More

Cutting the center relief....just like the factory one





Cutting the Vee relief with a big saw.





Cutting the relief on the center transverse tongue ( at 30 degrees)





Cutting the tailstock offset features.





TS fits good on the lathe It is about .020 high at the moment. Plenty of stock to scrape in with.

I still need to make the central block for the offset screws to bear against, and then round the corners and paint.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's the last for today






and 






Dave


----------



## steamer

Scratch vertical slide off the list. Just scored this






Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

where do you mount this?
on the compound cross slide?

t


----------



## steamer

Hi Tom,

I have W.R. Smiths book as seen thus





The set up I am after is what is on the cover of this book "Clockmaking and Modelmaking tools and Techniques"
by W.R. Smith.

The end result is a small gear cutting capability on the lathe. Chuck the stock, turn and bore, cut the teeth, part it off.  All in one setup. You can't beat that concentricity at home.

This is an awesome book and I highly recommend it to all. Even if you don't make a clock. There are many high precision techniques to be gleaned from this book.

You can find it at his website
http://www.wrsmithtelegraphkeys.com/index.htm

I have spoken to him and he's about the nicest man I have ever met.



Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

thank you.


----------



## crab

Hi Dave.Have you seen this home made power scraper? Might save you some time roughting out.A lot cheaper than a Biax.
Crab

http://www.machinistweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=501


----------



## steamer

Hi Crab!
Thank you for your interest and support!

I don't think "I" could get those results with that rig though.

I'll stick to my wee Anderson, and cunning.

It'll be a while before I bring the TS up for scraping as I need to continue the tear down to the bare bed, and finish the refurb of the cabinet base. Then I can level up the bed for real and get some real alignment numbers. After I scrape the TS base in for bearing with the ways, I'll cut most of the rest of the .020 high off with the mill from the top....leaving about .004 for scraping on the top of the TS base....that'll come off in an hour or two by hand.
I know ...at least for me...that I can control that and end up where I want it to be....by hand.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

dave,

I have photocopies of "Machine tool reconditioning and applications of hand scrapping" -- but have never seen a scrapping session. 
A you tube search does not yield a lot of results... 

Any chance you would make short videos showing basic technique... at some point in the future... or how would you suggest one learns... take a scrap piece and have at it...?

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## gmac

Tom;
Lindsay Books used to have several books solely on hand scrapping, inventory varies from time to time, so best to check with them by phone to see what is currently "in print", examples;

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks9/hscrape/index.html

http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/lathsc/index.html

http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/sub/machine.html

Best to request a catalog as well. I found the website difficult to locate stuff, but they were great to deal with.

Cheers
Garry


----------



## steamer

There are a few good references on the web

Check out Youtube and Nick Mueller

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHF7TtHVSWE&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esAqz6bCVyQ&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQhsDtS--wU&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeqSjT7UBE&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kWbIxB4z3s&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVB3WuxrAG0&feature=related[/ame]


And several others


Additionally, check out Mike's webpage and book

http://www.machinerepair.com/Book.html


Great book!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Tom,

I am going to have to make a master to scrape in the TS base top.  It is basic stuff...which is good because I only "Play" at scraping and don't do it for a living....Thank God!

However, I could try to incorporate the build of that into this thread and at least show you how "I" go about it....usual caviates apply....Your mileage may vary...non professional driver on closed course...ect.

BUT NOT TODAY!   TOO DAMN HOT!  106F at work today

I might also point out that Home Shop Machinist is running a series on scraping right now.

Forrest Addy does semi regular classes on scraping at various locations. I am not aware of any in the North East though Tom....But I've heard good things  Check out the PM board occasionally.

Dave


----------



## vedoula

thank you very very much for these pointers!

tom (from anastasia's account) in MA


----------



## steamer

Your Welcome Tom!  Anastasia too! ;D


----------



## steamer

OK that looks better with a rolled over edge...











Dave


----------



## steamer

Scratch faceplate off the list...

Now for the motor drive
I drilled (2) 5/16-18 to mount up my new motor.  That's all pretty much done now except for mounting on the cabinet. There is a bracket for that.  When I do up the cabinet I'll finish that off





Now for the tear down of the headstock. Here it is as is.









I'll start with the tumbler reverse.
Disassembled  pretty grungy...





Cleaned and painted...I'll put new wicks in tomorrow and put it back together.





Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Your Welcome Tom!  Anastasia too! ;D



yes we both like your thread very much. I because I learn a ton, ansastasia because the mere fact that there are other "loonies" out there makes her feel better about me... :big:

it's coming along very nicely...

take care,

tom


----------



## steamer

Oh if we get Anastasia and My wife together....They can compare notes!....and coping mechanisms.. ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer

Finished the tumbler gear with wicks today, and then finished off the back gear assembly....All needed nothing more than a good cleaning with a wire brush and mineral spirits and then some new wicks...and a spot of paint...not much to report. I get into the spindle proper this coming week. Luckily though nothing is worn out!...or even worn!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well the HS is stripped and cleaned. The shaft and journals are perfect!

Needs paint, wicks lube and reassembly....I'll take a photo later of the pieces

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK....the HS is ready to go back together











The bearings are perfect...not a mark on them! ;D





















Old wicks! full of sludge.....glad I did this!






two coats of paint and she looks much better

Dave


----------



## steamer

While I waited for the paint to dry I started in on the gears

The main gear in the train came first.....I found some trouble
The bore was scored badly and the stationary bushing was pretty gauled up.






I took an adjustable reamer and opened the bore up .005". I then made a new stationary bushing to suite the new bore....new with old





Just needs some paint.....

Dave


----------



## metalmad

Nice going Dave
Pete


----------



## ttrikalin

Dave,

When I did mine, i remember seeing red paint (after stripping some layers) near oiling holes. Your gear has such a mark. cannot be a coincidence. Was SB marking the oil holes red?

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Tom and MetalMad,
Thankyou for your interest and support!

Thanks Metal Mad....I'm not much of a painter...but it looks good to me anyway!

Tom
Maybe...but the hue matched the numbers that were on the gear cover exactly...I don't think SB would have marked their product gear cover quite like that...so It's inconclusive...I can assure you though, the crud in the oil holes on that gear was so deep and packed in that no oil was getting to the bearing!  I'm hoping the wicks saved the other bearings from similar fates!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Ya know Tom....Here's a theory....I wonder if in the literature for the "Setting up a school shop"

http://www.wewilliams.net/docs/1954 - School Shop Planning and Specifications Manual.pdf

That mention isn't made to the instructors to put a dab of red paint on the oil holes so that the students can find them...no time to search right now...but maybe this week.  I say this as I have a hunch this was a trade school lathe.....but it's all a hunch.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

this theory works for me... 
a bit of googling... Dennis Turk is an expert on South Bends... 



			
				dennis turk on practical machinist forum said:
			
		

> [...] On some of the old lathe parts I have gotten SB painted a little dab of red paint at these oil holes. They also some times put red paint on top of the flip cap on Gits oil cups.
> 
> I have seen this mostly in the twenties and early thirties machines.
> 
> Turk



based on what he said, this was done by SB on early lathes. Mine had them and came from a highschool. Mine was cast after 1974... Your theory holds water. 

take care, 

tom


----------



## steamer

I guess it makes sense...the students in the 20's and 30's became the teachers in the 50's and 70's too.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Started the HS reassembly last night....I found a small galled spot in the spindle pulley that must have been dirt in the oil grooves that caused it while I was disassembling it.  

It wasnt' going to go back to together!  I stoned it smooth and I'll try again tomorrow.  
The pulley is a VERY tight fit on the shaft!  I can not imagine using grease in this application,,,,only light oil,

I'll take some pictures and post when I do......I have got to get my boat in the water or it will be a wasted season!

Dave


----------



## Maryak

steamer  said:
			
		

> I have got to get my boat in the water or it will be a waisted season!
> 
> Dave



Is that a fat or thin waist or is it just wasted :

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Ah well.....I'm a lover, not a spella.... ;D


----------



## Maryak

steamer  said:
			
		

> Ah well.....I'm a lover, not a spella.... ;D



I should be so lucky. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

OK not only does it look better...it is better!
















I need to get some dry transfer letters to complete the switch plate (FORWARD) AND (REVERSE)

Then I'll go over that with some spray polyureathane which will make the black glossy and protect the letters from coming off....at least for a little while.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

now that's some seriously attractive lathe... 

tom in ma.


----------



## crab

Look'in good Dave!
Crab


----------



## steamer

Tom,

I started looking carefully under the muck, and all the oil cups and oil holes have the "red dab" on them.

I may restore that feature as well!... :big:


Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's the drum switch picture....






The dots are the screw heads I think....I don't think there is a "F" or an "R"

This part should be easy

Dave


----------



## steamer

Observations about the headstock:

The fit between the pulley and the shaft is VERY tight.  After 60 years...OK 59 years 11 months...some dirt got in there, which was fine until I took it apart. I gaulled the bore , and more importantly I left a gaul bead on the shaft.  Interestingly enough, I couldn't feel it or see it until I came to the realization that it MUST be there! I VERY lightly stoned the back end of the pulley diameter of the shaft and as soon as the stone went over the area I could feel the stone hit it....After I stroked it a few times with the stone, you could see a little dot of material on the shaft....still couldn't feel it with your finger tip, but you could with the stone.

A couple of strokes later, the "dot" came off....I checked all around the last quarter inch of this diameter and found one more "dot"....it also came off very quickly.

I cleaned and oiled everything and with a little twist of the pulley it slipped right on......

If I did this again, I would flush this area with kerosene first REALLY well before I took it apart.

Just go easy .....it's a close fit

Dave


----------



## Allthumbz

Great job! Now come on over and help me do my Heavy 10!

 ;D

Nelson


----------



## steamer

Allthumbz  said:
			
		

> Great job! Now come on over and help me do my Heavy 10!
> 
> ;D
> 
> Nelson




Oh the fun is just begining...I am on to the gearbox/leadscrew next. I must admit I am not looking forward to the gearbox....but ....It always seems worse than it really is.  I'm a bit nervouse about the leadscrew because it is sooooooo long.  I don't want to damage it.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> I'm a bit nervouse about the leadscrew because it is sooooooo long.  I don't want to damage it.



When I did mine anastasia was there holding the leadscrew... but it seems to me that it is hefty enuf not to be damaged by it's own weight. 

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## 1Kenny

Dave,

Its looking real nice. I look at this everyday just so I don't miss anything.

Kenny


----------



## steamer

Tom and Kenny,

Thank you for your interest and support...it's a big job!

Here's my contributions for today...not much but it's MUCH better than it was ...if you go back a page or two







Dave


----------



## steamer

Well...taking the leadscrew out was no big deal.....as I expected....pretty much a non event.

The gear box appears to be a mess...but it also appears that the gears are in good shape.

I gave it a healthy shot of Carb cleaner and took some photo's
















Next thing is a complete disassemble, clean, repair if required, paint, and reassemble with wicks.

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK

Gearbox is stripped down and soaking in Mineral spirts for a while....found 1 bushing and 1 end of a mating shaft that are worn .005" each...the surface finish is pretty bad on that worn shaft...I think I will replace the end of that shaft and put in a new bushing....I'll post some pictures.....the cause is lack of lubrication due to "mummified" wicks!. They are the consistancy of softwood now..These wicks are the only way this shaft gets any oil at all...

The rest of the shafts might have .001-.002" wear on them..but the finish is good as are the bushings...I'll leave them be.

Steve Wells book was very helpful here. These shafts only come out a specific way.  But it's easy if you know that.






Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

indeed the disassembly of the gearbox can be tricky, at first glance. I did not know of steve wells' books. I googled just now. I wish I had bought them before doing mine, would have saved some time and some head scratching (with oily hands)... 

The only thing is that I wish I had put longer wicks (twice the size) when I changed them. Seems to me the oil I put in the gearbox drains a tad too fast... 

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

I'll keep that in mind....I may alter the plan and do the final OD machining after the part is loctited on.....thereby getting everything concentric....but what a crudy job.....the congealed oil/dirt/ "crud" in the open bottom gearbox is nasty....no one's been in there in 60 years......

I think this is going to be a honey when she's done...........eventually.. :

I'll have to put in a drip tray under the gearbox to try to keep things tidy.....

Here's the rebuild kit on the bay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rebuild-Man...527?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230a60e89f

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK some pictures

Simple green and water with a wire brush ....very effective ...and takes the paint off too!





















I'll let it dry and paint tomorrow........while the paint dries I'll repair the shaft...I've already 

made the bushing....


Dave


----------



## steamer

Well ...never got to the shaft today.  I did get to paint the housing...inside white and outside grey.

All the gearing was scrubbed hard in SG and water....then dried and oiled.

I cleaned and painted the gear banjo and the associated stock gears.

I restored the gear chart label.  I just buffed it slightly with a fine beartex abrasive pad to brighten the brass letters and lines....of course now the paint is dull....60 years hasn't helped either....so I put a coat of clear gloss coat over it and it popped nicely!.  Just right ...cleaned up and completely readable but "vintage"

Her birthday is coming up....I doubt she'll be done by then.....but I'll keep plugging away.

I still have to tear down, clean, paint and or repair the selector arm assemblies....their soaking in OMS right now.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Came upon an old SB 9 of similar vintage as mine today....I have the "Forward" and "Reverse" well REVERSED!

 :big: :big:

I'm going to leave it as it matches my Logans switch, which means I'll screw up less

Dave


----------



## Allthumbz

Steamer,

Awesome guide for the rest of us who need to restore ours.

Thanks,


Nelson


----------



## steamer

Thanks Nelson

I'm in the process of getting my steamboat ready for a meet for next week. I'm afraid the SB is lanquishing at the moment while I do that....but don't fear....boating season is almost over.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> I'm in the process of getting my steamboat ready for a meet for next week. I'm afraid the SB is lanquishing at the moment while I do that....but don't fear....boating season is almost over.



is this an RC steam boat you allude to? 

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Scored a Follower Rest today...Cool!

Dave


----------



## steamer

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> is this an RC steam boat you allude to?
> 
> take care,
> tom in MA




Oh no.....12" to the foot scale.....all 25 feet....search under "Rushforth" you'll find her.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Ah, just read the thread... what a wonderful boat, and what a nice engine. Hats off, Sir. 

 :bow:

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> Ah, just read the thread... what a wonderful boat, and what a nice engine. Hats off, Sir.
> 
> :bow:
> 
> take care,
> tom in MA



Thanks Tom!


----------



## steamer

Scored the gear guard today! 






I'll be getting back on this project shortly once things cool down at work.


Dave


----------



## steamer

Work has been occupying all my time as of late with various crisis and trips.  I have not progressed much as of late...be patient.

I did score one missing collet and a complete lever collet closer on the Bay today though.....it will be added to the list of accessories for the old girl.

This will be one WELL tooled SB9!


 woohoo1

Dave


----------



## maverick

Dave, I'm anxious to see the collet closer in action. My SB needs one, and i'm spoiled by having one at work.
 Great thread on the rebuild. 

 Regards,
 Mike


----------



## steamer

Thanks Maverick,

A lever collet closer isn't always the best to use....at least for some of the work I'll be doing with the old girl...as I'll be mounting a dividing head on her for some gear and wheel cutting......but for repeatative parts ....you can't beat it!....and yes I've been spoiled too with a Hardinge I got to use at work years ago.......

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here it is....it needs the oiler and some cleaning up....but I think she'll do.







Dave


----------



## steamer

Hey Tom,

I just got a copy of "Lubricating your lathe" and low and behold, SB recommends painting circles around the oil cups with a contrasting paint for better visibility. ....guess it's easier to just paint the cup itself.






Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> ....guess it's easier to just paint the cup itself.



it is, isn't it? :


----------



## steamer

OK 

Did a bit this morning.  Got some of my collets sorted out and inventoried.





Got to do some scraping later today on the cross slide table and keep going with the gear box re-assembly....maybe some progress shots for tomorrow....

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Dave, 

I saw your Waltham lathe thread... How many lathes have you rebuilt?

tom


----------



## steamer

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I saw your Waltham lathe thread... How many lathes have you rebuilt?
> 
> tom



Hi Tom,

This lathe makes 5 that I own. The third that I've "torn into"

I hate to use the term "rebuilt" as to me that implies I've gone back and rescraped everything, and I have'nt.

The Reed was a clean up, paint and repair....that was a lot of work, but it wasn't real complicated.

The Waltham was far more involved because getting parts is near impossible. I've never even seen another one though I know who owns the rights to the company and he stated to me he has two more that are very worn out. The cross slide for that came from an Ames lathe that was trashed!...lots of work there. I originally wanted to use the Waltham for my small engine/clock stuff, but tooling it has been a nightmare.  It will take W20 collets, and I have a metric set but Swiss collets are VERY expensive. Everything else will have to be made or adapted, and it doesn't have threading.  I'll finish it, and put her to use, but in a limited way.

The SB kinda fell into my arms. With the availability of parts and tooling, rebuild kits, ect, I think it's a no brainer. It has the capacity I like, and it was well made....besides being free!.....excluding what I've put into it.

The SB takes priority for the moment though.  Get her done!

Dave


----------



## Florian

Hey Dave

There is a cheap supplier for W20 collets (Rc-machines, -> Google)
But the precision is of course not very high, those collets are made in china I think. 


Cheers Florian


----------



## steamer

Thanks Florian!


I'll check them out, but it sort of defeats the pourpose to put poor collets in a good lathe....I don't know what to do but $120 each new for the good ones is WAY out of my league!

 :'(

Dave


----------



## Mosey

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hey Tom,
> 
> I just got a copy of "Lubricating your lathe" and low and behold, SB recommends painting circles around the oil cups with a contrasting paint for better visibility. ....guess it's easier to just paint the cup itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


If my wife saw this, she'd be painting circles around everything in the house, faucets, toilet valves, brooms, the vacuum, the stove, the garbage can, etc., etc.


----------



## steamer

Started in tonight getting the top surface of the cross slide parallel to the bottom...wow!  it is bowed in the middle by .005", but not along the whole length!...just the middle.

Did some semi serious ploughing of stock with the scraper and a file, but I'm pretty close some resemblence of flat, even if its not parallel yet.

I took some pictures and I'll post tomorrow

I'll work on it some more tonight.

Additionally I bought an AXA wedge type tool post set to match the one I have on my Logan. I have also picked out what I think will be the 3 Jaw chuck I'll use from New England Brass and Tool

Its a 5" Fuerda 3 jaw adjust true, plain back...I have a bunch of backing plates and 1 just has to fit....I'll check those.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

very nice... very nice indeed... 

tom in MA


----------



## Florian

steamer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Florian!
> 
> 
> I'll check them out, but it sort of defeats the pourpose to put poor collets in a good lathe....I don't know what to do but $120 each new for the good ones is WAY out of my league!
> 
> :'(
> 
> Dave



Dave, $120 each is way too much! Here in Switzerland most of them are about $42 (middle range), some are £52 (smaller and bigger ones) and the smalles they ARE expensive, 1.5mm and 1mm are about $95 and the very small 0.5mm is $148. 

So I guess you just asked the wrong guy who tries to make lots of profit by selling swiss collets. 

You may directly ask the manufacturer, which is Schaublin(http://www.schaublin.ch/e/), and I guess it will be cheaper than your source! 

Cheers Florian


----------



## steamer

I guess your right!

Can I buy anything from Shaublin?...are they still in business?

Dave


----------



## Florian

Hey Dave

I don't know if you can directly buy from the collets factory (which has been separated from the machine factory which is also still called Schaublin..) 

But they are still in business!

Cheers Florian 
btw, one thing I just realized: I was telling you the price for metric collets. I don't know if they have imperial collets and what the price of them would be...


----------



## Tin Falcon

Here is a catalog of there collets lots of info a bit long as it is in three languages. 


http://www.schaublin.ch/catalogues/Catalogue%20SSAD.pdf
lot of good collet info
tin


----------



## steamer

Thanks again Florian and Tin! I'll check into it.
I have a metric set in "whole" sizes that I got for a good price off the "bay".  But lately the prices there...and availability...have just been nuts...the only place to buy new here that I know of is Hardinge......hence my comment on the cost.

But I'll check....still at $43 each up their not cheap!.... :-\

That's 40 collets between 1/64 and 5/8 or about $1700.... 

The SB is going to have to take priority though.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's some pictures from last night

The high spot was along the middle by the compound spigot and the cross slide nut mounting hole and ran towards the back of the table.

I checked the bottom and found it was still flat





Then I started roughing the high spot down...you will notice the long strokes and large chips.

1 cycle is two passes crossed

first pass





Second pass





followed by aggressive flat filing





If I LEAN on it and sharpen the blade between cycles, and file aggressively, I can get about .0007" per pass.

Here's what the chips look like





For the life of me I don't know why the hump is there but after about 5-8 cycles, its mostly gone now.  I'll touch it up a bit to make sure it is not high in the middle, and then I'll mark it up and see what it looks like. The goal is to get the top parallel to the bottom and then get good bearing and a nice flaking for decoration. I'll get on with that next.....must deal with in-laws today.  Maybe tonight.

Keep in mind this kind of scraping has more to do with shoveling stock off than it does with anything precision...just getting the stock off...as I get the surfaces parallel, I'll start to scrape for bearing by shortening my strokes and scraping only the marking compound and as the bearing carries across the part I'll shorten the stroke more. 

I had to take about .003-.005" off by the way in the middle areas  

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK

I had a low spot on the table of about .004". Since I think the reason the table is so NON FLAT, is the mill, I'm staying away from it.
I got up early this morning and went through a few roughing cycles. After about an hour, I'm down to .002-.0025 high in the marked areas.
The low spot is the bottom left corner in the photo's.

You can see in the first photo, I have an aversion to holes...it's high all around....I took care of that in subsequent cycles.
Pretty much the periphery of the table is low with the long center..close  The plate won't lie but the part can trick you.

I'll start refining the style a bit by shortening the strokes some and easing up. Don't want to go by in some spot and have to take is all down to that point!











no rest for the wicked.

Dave


----------



## steamer

For those of you following along and wondering....how does he know its parallel?

I do two roughing cycles using the marking as a guide  This controls flatness

I then do the next cycle based on the information I get from a dial indicator and an indicator stand...this controls parallelism.

Although it doesn't have very good bearing at the moment, it has potential and the area marked is parallel within .0005" which is good up to this point...as I said I'll start to throttle back a bit....this will take longer , but will be more controlled and easier on my arm!

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Dave, 
Were I to start scraping a master -- say a straight edge ... Can I use aluminium? or should it be cast iron? can it be mild steel?

tom


----------



## steamer

Hi Tom,

What do you have for a reference?...It should be bigger than the part your scraping.

If your going to put the effort into making a master, use some good quality continuous cast iron. You can use other materials but they aren't as stable. Steel is harder and more difficult than iron. Aluminum is soft and easily damaged.

How you start is important.  When you have machined you master, check it for flatness. If it's high in the center, like a see-saw, you will chase your tail.  Instead make sure it's high on the ends so it sits down repeatably.

I would make a flat master as your first go.  Is this just for practice or are you making it for a specific job?

Get that far and we can talk.... 

Dave


----------



## steamer

All

If this is way too much information, I can cut it back....

Let me know...and no worries...I asked.

Dave


----------



## chuck foster

Dave, as far as i am concerned keep the info coming :bow: :bow:

until you started posting this info i thought scraping was just to aid in oiling, never even considered it a way to flatten out machined surfaces.
it looks to be very time consuming and labour intensive but the results are worth it.

i have read this thread from start to finish twice and i am sure i will do so again !

thanks
     chuck


----------



## Captain Jerry

Dave

I may never do this but watching someone else do it is interesting and entertaining. There can never be "to much good information." Keep it coming.

Jerry


----------



## steamer

Cool! Will do.


It would have been nice if my mill had done a better job of milling the table parallel.....a lot less work!
..but we'll get there.

Dave


----------



## lee9966

Just read this whole thread and it is very informative. I have a 1936 9" that I tore down, painted, and put new felts. Maybe I should give scraping a shot someday, but the bed is so worn it's hardly worth messing with.

Btw I don't normally comment on spelling, but this one amused me.
Scrape = Scraping
Scrap = Scrapping.



Lee


----------



## ttrikalin

LeeScrounger  said:
			
		

> Scrape = Scraping
> Scrap = Scrapping.
> 
> Lee



 :big:


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> 
> What do you have for a reference?...It should be bigger than the part your scraping.
> 
> If your going to put the effort into making a master, use some good quality continuous cast iron. You can use other materials but they aren't as stable. Steel is harder and more difficult than iron. Aluminum is soft and easily damaged.
> 
> How you start is important. When you have machined you master, check it for flatness. If it's high in the center, like a see-saw, you will chase your tail. Instead make sure it's high on the ends so it sits down repeatably.
> 
> I would make a flat master as your first go. Is this just for practice or are you making it for a specific job?
> Get that far and we can talk....
> Dave



Dave, 

I got inspired by your thread. Since I saw your scraping for the first time, months back, I got hooked. I have acquired a copy of the machine tool reconditioning book (my brother found it, dunno wherefrom) -- and I'd love to try my hand at it. 

I did buy a simple HSS scraper from ENCO, nothing fancy like yours -- and I do have a 9" by 12" chinese tombstone for a reference... and scraper's marking paste... I understand I should start playing with what I have and thin about obtaining real tools as I go... 

I would like to eventually scrape in my south bend... but not in a hurry -- it is accurate enuf and smooth enuf for now... 

take care, 
tom in MA...


----------



## steamer

Thats a good book Tom for procedure, but it's thin on instruction.

Good to have , but not the only one.

I would definitely get this one also.

http://www.machinerepair.com/Book.html

Worth it's weight in gold

I use the E.S. Dyjak brand marking fluid shown in an earlier post

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=1507654

Get it...you'll thank me. If your using high spot...it's great but what a mess

The Dyjak stuff is much better from a cleanliness perspective

Use a brayer ( a hard rubber roller used by printers)

I don't have as good a result with the soft paint rollers...so I would save up for the brayer ( like $12 I think)

It works well and it will clean up.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Thank you.
I just ordered the book and the DVD  

Will get the marking compound you suggest also -- as well as the brayer... 

thanks for this pointer, 
tom


----------



## steamer

Hey Tom

Cool!

A hint.... a little dab will do ya!  Try just a small drop...maybe .100 diameter drop on your 12 x 18 plate and roll it out even...you should still see the plate through the marking...otherwise you put it on too thick....thickness is key....just go for it and get a feel for it...it will start to make sense once you do and you read up.

Your looking for "bullseyes"  not to paint Chevy Nova fenders.... :big:

A little bottle lasts a long time.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Did some more tonight. I have just about got the bearing carried across the whole part...meaning I have spots showing nearly everywhere....not enough to suffice for bearing, but to show flatness. I have a couple of tenths or so to go to make the bearing carry the whole way.

I'm going easy from here as it's easy to roll the edge of the part if I get agressive here.....a little at a time.

Parallelism is good...I'll need to put my tenths indicator on to really measure...as I'm using a .0005" one at the moment and it's showing parallel in both directions.

I needed to do a step cut to get rid of .0005" or so taper across the part
To do this you make a cut part way across cutting in one direction.

then

Make a cut across the whole part in the other direction going over the surface you just cut.

The result is you remove a "wedge" of material by taking more off one side than the other.....thereby bringing the surfaces closer to parallelism....provided you take down the high side! :big:...or you just made it worse!

Dave


----------



## steamer

AXA tool mount to share tooling I have already with my "Big" lathe



New 5" 3 jaw set true chuck with two piece jaws




Dave


----------



## steamer

OK The surface has carried...I'll start refining it tonight....after I spend the day raking leaves :
I'll try to post some pictures.


Dave


----------



## steamer

Alright

Here's where I started....just about carried all the way across the part







Better






Better still






Where I left it







What the marking on the plate looked like on the last mark up.





What I found once I finished was that the part was out of parallel left to right by .001! but parallel within a couple of tenths the long way ???

I take down the flat way to correct this ...tomorrow

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's what it will look like....like it?






Dave


----------



## Mosey

Love it!
And for your next one, can you make it look Swiss? You know, all of those tiny snowflakes.


----------



## steamer

Flaking!

As you and I both have F1's We know what that is don't we!

I think that is called diamond flaking. I also think its done using the bump technique

I like the butterfly flake personally..
Problem is, I'm so inconsistant, that it looses it beauty....maybe in 30 years I'll get good at it :big:  

I'll see if I can find out how the diamond is done...

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Here's what it will look like....like it?



Like it very much!  

I did my first scraping today  
The book and DVD is not here yet -- will be sent on Thursday... but I decided to scrape flat a piece of mild steel... I think I did kind of OK, but I do not get such nice bearing as this... 

I will start a new thread on my learning experiences for people to laugh -- but also for viewers to drop some hints along the way... 

take care,
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

I look forward to it!

Dave


----------



## Florian

Mosey  said:
			
		

> Love it!
> And for your next one, can you make it look Swiss? You know, all of those tiny snowflakes.



Are you talking about such a pattern:? (Thats my work  8) )







The "Original Swiss Pattern" is made by using a pulling scraper and rotating the workpiece for 45° every pass. 

The Scraper looks like the one on this picture and is being pulled. The Blade itself does not have any radius. The use of a pulling scraper results in very sharp edges on the small squares. 

Cheers
Florian


----------



## steamer

Thanks Florian!

I'll see if I can experiment with that!

Dave


----------



## Florian

Oh and by the way: The pattern on my workpiece is acutally made with a "normal" scraper (not a pulling scraper) 
If you look at it closer, then it will be different to the "original swiss pattern". 

But from far.. it looks quite similar. 

Dave: What strategy do you use when scraping? 

I first roughly scrap over the surfaces without ever lifting the blade from the material. 
I do this until i have some color-points all over the surface (only scattered). 

Then i start with fine-scraping on one edge of the (mostly) rectangular surface. 
I only "divide" all the points (except the very pale ones) into 2 or more points by scraping through the middle of them. 
I always scrap in an thought "line" which is 45° to the long sides of the surface, which means i start on one side and scrap all the points in that "line" until i reach the other side. 

That is how i get that pattern you can see on the picture above. 

When fine scraping, i do put the blade on the surface just before the point and then scrap the point with 2 or 3 light and short strokes. (I found out that this is the way it works best for me...)

Cheers Florian 
by the way: I actually make swiss pattern (can't be any different) as i live in switzerland ;D ;D


----------



## steamer

Then I'm glad we're all talking "Swiss"  ;D

There is about 300000 ways to do anything isn't there?

I may stick with something that I can do with the tools I have....again I'll experiement

If you did yours without pull scraping, did you use a narrow,square ended blade?

Dave


----------



## Florian

steamer  said:
			
		

> Then I'm glad we're all talking "Swiss" ;D
> There is about 300000 ways to do anything isn't there?



No further comment on this... ;D

No, I didn't use a small square blade. 

As I said, if you look closer, you will see (actually you will not as the picture is to small) that the "squares" on my workpiece are not square and sharp-edged. 

But from far it does look similar.. 

I did think about making a pulling scraper, and I think I will do so for the next pieces of work. Just to try it out. 
Also its being told that with pulling scrapers you can reach a better surface quality which means less difference to the perfect planned surface as you do not "dig" in the durface like you do it with the "normal scrapter"...
As far as I know, pulling scrapers have been used to finish a surface and for fine scraping. 

Florian


----------



## steamer

Thanks Florian!

I'll muddle around and see what I can do.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Florian  said:
			
		

> Are you talking about such a pattern:? (Thats my work  8) )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]



Florian, 
no image!

tom


----------



## Groomengineering

You're scraping looks great Dave!

I finished mine on a surface grinder. Probably not as accurate, but if I did it by hand I'd probably still be at it (10+ yrs later). oh:

Keep up the good work!

Cheers

Jeff


----------



## Florian

Hey Tom

Well, I can see it... 
Can you see it now...? 

Florian


----------



## ttrikalin

Florian, no I cannot. I see that the link is to an https in Dropbox -- perhaps for this reason? It may be unrelated... 

take care,
tom


----------



## steamer

Groomengineering  said:
			
		

> You're scraping looks great Dave!
> 
> I finished mine on a surface grinder. Probably not as accurate, but if I did it by hand I'd probably still be at it (10+ yrs later). oh:
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jeff




Jeff

If I had a surface grinder it would be done!
 ;D
Dave


----------



## Florian

I have changed it; it should now be possible to see the picture! 

Cheers Florian


----------



## ttrikalin

Florian  said:
			
		

> I have changed it; it should now be possible to see the picture!



Ah, yes, beautiful pattern. 
very neat!

take care,
tom


----------



## steamer

Got the top of the cross slide scraped parallel to the to the bottom of the ways to about .001" full length. I then took a near flat blade and cleaned up the top to good bearing and an attractive surface with a little decorative flaking with a fairly well curved blade and a series of draw strokes in "crosses".  Even I can't screw this one up... :big:

Then I took the bottom to task AGAIN...and got the top parallel to the bottom to .0002" over full length...I'm at about the limit of my ability to measure with the equipment I have. I have a new to me Starrett tenths indicator that appears to work well, but will need a few bits of indicator stand furniture to mount up to my small Starrett #56 indicator stand. I should be able to have more confidence in the measurement by then.....I'm digging it anyway.

This will become a gauge for any saddle rework so it really needs to be good.  

















Dave


----------



## steamer

Quote from: Mosey on December 03, 2011, 08:48:31 PM
Love it!
And for your next one, can you make it look Swiss? You know, all of those tiny snowflakes.


Are you talking about such a pattern:? (Thats my work  



Hey Florian , that looks great!

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

me like!!! :bow: :bow:

this looks wonderful! you will have a lathe you will hate to use, man. talk about scratching this surface with chips...

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

I know the guy who did it and he'll give a deal to fix it... ;D

Dave


----------



## arnoldb

:bow: Great job Dave ! :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the kind words and support Arnold!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Another Serious score!  Wasn't planning on it, but it popped up so I went for it!

9" Southbend factory turret tailstock with tooling!....no no not the 
tailstock mounted thing...a real turret tailstock... woohoo1
Serious gloat time..... ;D

Dave


----------



## 1hand

steamer  said:
			
		

> Another Serious score! Wasn't planning on it, but it popped up so I went for it!
> 
> 9" Southbend factory turret tailstock with tooling!....no no not the
> tailstock mounted thing...a real turret tailstock... woohoo1
> Serious gloat time..... ;D
> 
> Dave



Sweet! Your going to have one nice rig! :bow:

Matt


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Another Serious score! Wasn't planning on it, but it popped up so I went for it!
> 
> 9" Southbend factory turret tailstock with tooling!....no no not the
> tailstock mounted thing...a real turret tailstock... woohoo1
> Serious gloat time..... ;D
> 
> Dave



Oh, come on!!! Some guys have all the luck!


----------



## steamer

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> Oh, come on!!! Some guys have all the luck!



gotta keep your eyes open Tom....I opened up the box last night. It comes in a cherry wood storage box. Someone spent some time with her and it's real nice and tight. The indexing lever is missing, so you have to manually rotate the turret once it's unlocked,.....which is annoying....I'll make a new one for her.

.....SWEEEEEET!

I've been told it needs to go under the Christmas tree though.... :

My wife KNOWS I'm nuts.....but she loves me anyway...

Dave


----------



## steamer

;D


----------



## arnoldb

Thm: Dave, that IS sweet! - great score !

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## steamer

iwananew10K on the PM SouthBend forum has graciously agreed to send me his indexing arm for me to copy for the price of shipping which I will return with drawings ASAP.

Chad  Thank you very much! :bow: :bow:

Regards,

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

nice gizmo.


----------



## steamer

OK , I got the central gear shaft for the QC box turned down, made a sleeve that I bonded on with loctite cylindrical bonder and then turned to original size ( about .004" wear and the surface finish was awful)  I did it just as I described a few pages back. (page 12) That's done!

Painted the gear box cover...the one that goes on the end of the banjo arm( near the bottom of page 12), and I painted the following steady tonight. The cover was stripped to bare aluminum using nothing by Simple Green and a tooth brush.
I can start putting the QC back together now.

Now what's left to do?

I need to strip, clean and or repair the apron, the saddle, strip and paint the bed and the stand and make up my mind am I going to mount the stand on casters or leveling feet.
I need to build a shelf in the leg cubby for the collets and some of the attachments.

Then I need to level the lathe, and proceed with final alignment checks and corrections...specifically the TS base.
but also the table./cross slide.

I need to put drip feed oilers on the countershaft....just need to set up drill and tap 1/8 npt..I have the oilers.
Then get any of the accessories cleanded/corrected and or built.

More pictures once I get more minutes on my phone...the shop camera died.

Stay tuned!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Happy New Year everyone!

Been busy tonight on the SB!  I have half the gearbox put back together.  I still needed to clean the selector arms

They've been sitting in Mineral spirits for months. I took them out and let them dry. What a mess!

The tank had been used to clean other parts while they were soaking, and they had a thick coating of yuck that looked like coal dust!  

Out came my old friend....Simple Green!

I brought the arms into my bathroom and filled the sink half full with piping hot tap water....far too hot to put your hand in.

I mixed in an equal amount of Simple Green, and put the arms in the sink.....then I did something very profound! I went in the house, cracked a libation and watched the History Channel for an hour!

I came back and gave them a good scrub with a brass bristle brush for about 10 minutes total.  Bare iron!
I then soaked the whole assembly in rubbing alcohol to dry the water off...and they were ready to paint.

I can't speak highly enough of Simple Green to clean these parts.....Try it you'll love it!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Another coat of paint this morning....should be able to put the rest together this afternoon
The needle bearings on the idler gears seem to be just fine...and they are very easy to replace if I should need to so I'm going to leave them be.

I need a steel bristle brush for the knob knurls.....say that 3 times fast... ;D
I want to do the lathe bed which is pretty grungy.....Have to think about that one...it's very heavy.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Photos, photos, please... 
Do you plan to scrape align the saddle and bed ways? or do tests and then decide?

Happy new year, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

I have no intention of scraping in the bed/saddle unless absolutely required. Which I don't think
It is
If I find the bed to be far worse than currently indicated, Ill probably get it reground and then moglice the saddle
But the main reason I took this lathe on was that the bed appears and indicates to be good. And I think it still is.  Right now it's just a "Chocolate Mess!" Its just grunge and grime clean for the bed/saddle.  And a few coats of paint.
Dave


----------



## steamer

OK some photo's.....

The shaft repair
































Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

I re-read page 12 to remind myself...
The fix seems very nice indeed. 

Aren't loctite-type adhesives wonderful...


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the interest and support Tom!

 My Brother found another box of "lathe stuff" in his shop.

4 jaw, faceplate, a steady rest, a ten inch steady rest, wrenches, collet adapter...pretty much most stuff I've bought already! :fan:

I'll find a home for them....they seem to be in good shape but have the same overspray red primer paint on them.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Ok
The gearbox is done.
I got it together and found the box stiff.
The gears were meshing fine so I think its the new wicks
I put it in the Logan lathe at about 500 rpm and while flooding it with oil I ran it for about a half hour
Seems good!
Next the saddle
Dave


----------



## steamer

Got the index lever from Iwana10K and proceeded to copy it.  As soon as the pictures load I'll post some

Thanks again Chad!

Dave

Here's the pictures.

























I need to get some .046 music wire to make the spring. I tried .050 today and it was far too stiff. I'll order that up tomorrow along with some 5/16 ground shafting.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's what they will look like installed in the unit. These pictures courtesy of Chad's post on the PM site rehosted to my photobucket account so that I can keep track of how it goes together.











Dave


----------



## steamer

OK

In my last post I stated that brother found a box of stuff that went with the lathe.  One of the items was another steady rest.

BARN FRESH!







I sure there is a missing mob boss in there somewhere.

I intend to demonstrate the efficacy of Simple Green to clean something like this.

The steady is resting in my downstairs bathroom sink.  Here's the procedure.

The sink was filled half way with piping hot water (135F +)

I then filled the sink the rest of the way with simple green right out of the bottle.

Then!  I went the kitchen and washed the dishes....cruised around HMEM and poked my nose into ebay for a while

About 1 hour all together.


----------



## steamer

OK here's what it looked like right after I put it in the solution






Notice the bubbles....its foaming as it sits there.

And here's what it looked like after an hour.





10 minutes with a brass bristle brush and all the red overspray is gone, and the factory paint is starting to come off.

NICE AND CLEAN!







1 more soak cycle like this and it will be bare iron.

Gotta love this stuff.

Dave


----------



## lathohn

Hi Dave,

Been following your "restoration". Nice work so far. :bow:

I've tried various ways of cleaning metal parts, and the "non-toxic" solvents I've tried so far are Krud Kutter and Simple Green. I've used those full strength, right out the bottle, soaking parts for a day in a 5 gallon bucket. And if I had little time, they would sit there for a week taking a bath. :

Krud Kutter works well, and evaporates relatively fast. The old junior lathe I'm working on, the paint came right off with it, along with the grease. It did not seem to remove rust in any way. One good thing I noticed it about it, is that it prevents flash rusting. If you soak a part in it, take it out and let it air dry, the solvents in it will evaporate within few minutes, and no flash rusting appears. However, if you take that clean part from a cold/unheated garage to a warm room indoors, water will condensate on it, and rust will appear on it. So as long as the part doesn't get water on it, Krud Kutter seems to be a decent flash rust preventative.

Then I got couple gallons of Simple Green. It feels a bit more soapy than Krud Kutter, but cleans amazingly well. However, after I took a part out that was soaked in Simple Green, and let it air dry, I noticed that Simple Green evaporates more slowly, and some flash rusting did appear. What surprised me though, is that if I took a part that was already cleaned in Krud Kutter, and one that had some surface rust on it, and I soaked it overnight in Simple Green, next day I could brush off the rust with a just a toothbrush. So it seems Simple Green has some kind of an acid it, that slowly removes surface rust. The surface finish left by that would be kind of a matte light/dull gray. So kind of weird. Simple Green as a rust remover. Who would have thought.

Also, I'm not entirely sure if soaking parts in these solvents for long time affects the steel in anyway. However, one word of advice, if you use any of these solvents, and you have it sitting in a bucket somewhere, put a lid on it. This stuff slowly, but surely, evaporates, and you end up breathing it. I was walking around with a headache for 3 weeks before I realized, it was Krud Kutter and/or Simple Green causing it. Hehe. 

Also, I've tried EvapoRust that is sold at Autozone. That works remarkably well for rust removal. However, if you leave a part in it too long, the steel starts to discolor and turn dark gray, which is kind of weird. Some kind of acid reaction I guess. The label on the box recommends 30 minutes for light rust, and overnight for heavy rust.

I have yet to try a hot TSP solution (not the "TSP substitute"), which is supposed to be a kick ass way to clean parts. Some dude on another forum was saying he could clean a whole lathe within an hour. Even takes the paint off.

Electrolysis works pretty well to for grease/rust/paint removal, but a bit slower I guess. One website was saying it is the best way to remove rust.

South Bend bulletins recommended cleaning everything with Kerosene, but I'm not sure if it's any toxic. Hehe.

Anyways, thanks for your posts. Much appreciated.

John


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the introduction and input John. On most parts, I strip them, dry them and then paint them.

For parts that are critical or have springs ect, I soak them in Alchohol after the SG treatment. The Alchohol takes all the water off of them and makes them completely dry.

Then , I paint them.

I only use Rustoleum paint from the box stores.  It flows nice and it covers well, but more importantly, it's predictable to me.

I haven't had any issues with that paint bonding on.  Even without a primer.

I have noticed that SG will take some rust off. I always use it hot mixed 50/50 with water. I have also used it on aluminum with no ill effects.

I have had all kinds of problems with SW Alkyd Enamel as of late.  Though not in years past.  Can't explain why. See earlier portions of this thread for that saga!

I know SG will take the paint off, it has a harder time with high quality "factory" paint that the rattle can stuff though.

I'll soak the rest in it again and report.


The nice part of SG is I can put my hands in it and nothing bad happens

Dave


----------



## lathohn

Hi Dave,

I haven't decided on the type of paint to use for the lathe I'm working on. Have read bunch of threads about it, and the restoration guide sold on ebay recommends Rustoleum Alkyd Enamel, sold though Grainger and the like. The regular enamel they sell at Home Depot is probably not good enough. I think the key here is how well the paints holds up against cutting oils, solvents and the like. Also, how easily the paint chips when you drop a wrench on it, is another factor.

There are two lathes I'm working on. The first is a Junior lathe from 1929, and Krud Kutter / Simple Green took the paint right off without breaking a sweat. That proves the paint wasn't very good to begin with. The other lathe I got is from 1968 and that paint doesn't come off as easy with Krud Kutter / Simple Green. It softens the paint, but the parts has to soak for at least a couple of days to even get that far. So it seems South Bend has improved their paint choice over the years.

Some people on other forums recommended using urethane or polyurethane paints, and judging by some pictures it seems the best way to go. It's pricey though and more toxic to work with.

Sherwin-Williams sells a bunch of different metal paints:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/products/categories/metalplastic/finishes/

People on other forum were recommending their Polane Plus paint as the best choice for a lathe:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/oem/products/polane_plus_enamel/

I checked with Grizzly website, and ordered a quart of their "South Bend" enamel, using a South Bend Part#, and the paint they sent me was:

http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/cn/eng/oem/products/kem_lustral_enamel/

So all in all, I haven't quite decided yet. Hehe.

However, I don't think Home Depot/Lowes sells Alkyd Enamel. I've looked through their stuff, and it's not well labeled. They just say it's a paint for metal, or something generic like that (it might be Acrylic Enamel which is not as good as Alkyd).

Also, I've run into Por15. They have a rust preventative paint, but they also sell a 2 part urethane paint.

http://www.por15.com/2-Part-Topcoats/products/5/

Anyways, decisions, decisions. ;D

John


----------



## steamer

Well So far John I've used the garden variety Rustoleum on a number of projects and its held up just fine.

I don't use a great deal of exotic cutting oils....usually just a mineral oil, kerosene for aluminum, and one of the biodegradable pastes for most others....it hasn't raised hell with anything yet.

I also used the Alkyd Enamel for my F.E. Reed restoration about 15 years ago.  I can say their (SW's) product was better then than it is now.  I took one of the original cans back to the Sherwin Williams place I bought it from and asked for the same paint but in a different color.  The stuff I used all those years ago was wonderful!....this stuff was crap and would not set up even after a week of hot summer weather, would not cover or spread out. ttrikalin, another SB owner on this forum had a very similar experience with SW with his 10K and after some years is still really soft.

I've used the Urethane marine paints.  Stick with the one parts and avoid the two part, their far too dangerous for this unless you have the correct spray equipment....like you can die dangerous, as the catalyst is a cyano compound.
I've spread a lot of the one part during my boat building foray. Even that was bad enough! Glad I don't need to do it again!

I have two small children at home John.  My shop is at home.  I won't bring those products into the house... PERIOD.
I'll stick with the old "clean it up with paint thinner and put the lid on it" Rustoleum product.....works just fine for me.
No high priced thinners, no respirators, no tyvek jammies,no thinner flashing off turning the paint into syrup. ect.
Just a paint brush.

Several people have commented that the Tractor Supply paints are real good also.
Check this thread out on the PM forum
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/hendey-14-6-tie-bar-rehab-172446/



Dave


----------



## lathohn

Yea, I've read some of the warnings about polyurethane paints. It's a definite concern. If I were to use it, it would be a brush on job, but even with that, I think it requires a forced air respirator, which I don't have. I can already imagine a headline: "A Man Killed Himself While Painting a Vintage Lathe". That might be worthy of a Darwin Award. ;D

And yea, I've looked at the Tracktor Supply paints. It is an Alkyd paint, but their color selection is kind of limited. And if I got with black, it might not matter.

Grainger seems to have a decent selection of Rustoleum paints, so I might go with that.

Anyways, thanks for your advice. After my 3 week headache experience, I have new found respect for proper ventillation, and the more I think about it, the urethane paints are probably a no go for me.

John


----------



## rkepler

I got sensitized to isocyanates when painting model helicopters some 25 years ago, still can't get even a whiff without the lungs shutting down. 

When I painted my lathe in 2005 I used Sherwin Williams Kem-400. It's an alkyd enamel and it's held up very well since. I used xylene and tolulene as reducers (the latter when I painted in the cold).


----------



## steamer

I did a thread in the safety section on my experience with epoxy barrier coat.  I'll never use it again...

Yesterday I got the appropriate music wire for the index lever return spring. I'll wind one either tonight or tomorrow night. I'm going to use .047 standard music wire, and make up a mandrel for the lathe to wind it.

That will leave the pivot shaft, which I also received 3 feet of TGP 0-1 in 5/16" for that application. I'll just use roll pins instad of taper pins though.

I'll see if I can get into the turret this week end, install and test/debug. I left some "meat" on the lever in a few key areas just in case I needed to ease it in.

I also received the gits oilers for the counter shaft. I was going to put in some drip feed lubricators, but setting the part up to drill and tap 1/8 npt will take an afternoon of shop time, and I'd rather get on with other things so I've nixed that as a scope creep.

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK Got the index lever shaft made up and wound a spring for it.  Took about 10 trys but I'm somewhat satisfied with the last one......

Dave


----------



## steamer

Installed the gits oilers in the countershaft hanger....the shaft fits so tight, I'm having trouble getting oil in..... :big:

That'll loosen up soon enough...

Dave


----------



## metalmad

looking good Dave
I might even paint my lathe before my next project :bow:


----------



## ttrikalin

Dave, Florian, and others, 

Since you mentioned oilers, this is an out of topic question. My 10K's headstock has two oilers. The one near the chuck remains always filled. The one one the left needs constant filling. Not sure where the heck the oil goes (not that it is too much but still...) 

That being said, I think the spindle gets the oil it needs. Even after 30 mins of running the bearings are cool to the touch, not even warm.

Thoughts on why this happens? I distinctly remember a "return" hole for the oil that comes out of the bearings to return to the oil "gallery"/reservoirs of the headstock... could the return in the rear be clogged? Should I take the spindle apart to investigate? 

When I got the lathe I serviced the spindle bearing felts and flushed the oil reservoirs. I wanna say that I checked the patency of the returns, but it's been a year since I got the lathe... 

Is it within the normal to have to top one of the oilers say every 2 days of operation? Is it normal that the other oiler rarely needs some oil added? 

Oh well, 

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## davedfsme

Tom,

 It is quite normal for the (end of the headstock opposite the chuck) to run dry faster than the spindle nose end on a 9" SB. OK, yours is a 10K, but I think they are the same in this respect (?) The thrust bearings act as an oil pump. Which do you think slings worse? The plain nut and washer outboard, or the axial ball bearing inboard? I seem to have less wear, but more oil down the inside of the HS.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

davedfsme  said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> It is quite normal for the (end of the headstock opposite the chuck) to run dry faster than the spindle nose end on a 9" SB. OK, yours is a 10K, but I think they are the same in this respect (?) The thrust bearings act as an oil pump. Which do you think slings worse? The plain nut and washer outboard, or the axial ball bearing inboard? I seem to have less wear, but more oil down the inside of the HS.
> 
> Dave



OK, good to know. 
a 10K should be identical to the 9" in this respect. 
thank you.

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the interest and support Pete!

Be careful....It's a slippery slope once you tear her down!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Got my 3 jaw Fuerda Chuck today

Hard reversable top jaws with master jaws and set-true. 5"

Sure is nice looking and it seems to have been finished well. It is made in China, but appears to be better than some of the junk I've seen.  Shows .0008" TIR at the chuck face according to the brochure that came with it.... .0005" with the set true option....but I can set it better than half that 8)

Here's some pictures....need to come up with a back plate for it....but I have a bunch of clapped out 3 jaw's this size....I'm sure I can find a donor!


----------



## steamer

Hi,

I soaked the steady in SG for 2 hours the other night....It took some of the factory paint off and softened most of it. It is clear it will need a longer soak to take it off.  The leadscrew hanger got a soak at the same time and it took two coats of paint right off! ...so it seems to depend on what paint you have. The paint of the steady was sticky after the soak, so I am reasonably sure a long soak will take it off.

I'll take some photo's this weekend ....and since I'm not working this weekend I might even get something done! :

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, I checked the steady after a couple of days and the paint had hardened up again.  A quick rub of the rougher spots and I painted it.

I then realized that I was out of SG and on my next trip to the box store I grabbed some more and put them in the cart.

OK
My bad...it's a different version of simple green!  It's "lemon scented"...to which I said to myself." self...I bet this new stuff sucks"...ah well, I'll give it a whirl.

I filled a "homer" bucket with 1 gallon of the stuff straight up. I then put a real nasty banjo bracket shown in a previous post in it along with the collet rack bracket and the associated hardware...the cast iron parts of it.  








Put the lid on and went to bed. Tonight some 24 hours late, I poped the lid and WOW....NO PAINT...NO GRIME!

I took some pictures so you can see the after...there was a few sheets of paint that basically pushed off, but that was it.











All I can say is wow....it works

Dave


----------



## steamer

Hi,

I started in on the apron and saddle today....the last major subs for disassembly and repair.  The feed worm bearing has quite a bit of wear in it. The bronze gear doesn't look too bad, but it's so filthy its really hard to say.  I've started the disassemlby.  I put the saddle in the "bucket" for a good soak while I disassemble the apron.  It's never been apart....and it shows. The cast iron bearing for the feed worm has about .03" radial and axial wear.  NOT GOOD!

Well, I'll get her apart and figuire out a plan of action for repair....can't go back now.....GIT ER DUN!

The saddle ways looked wonderful! no scoring or obvious wear.

We'll see what happens next!

Dave


----------



## lathohn

Hi Dave,

Be careful soaking soft metal parts (bronze, aluminum, brass) in Simple Green or Krud Kutter type degreasers. Weird chemical reactions happen that might damage the part.

I've soaked bronze bearings (that were already mostly clean) in full strength Simple Green that I just poured out of the bottle, and after 20 minutes, the solution turned red. Hehe.

I had an aluminum part soaking in Krud Kutter and it turned black.

I've soaked the end caps from the old motor in Krud Kutter, and the finish on the original bronze/brass bearings does not look they way it should. Looks very very red.

I'm guessing anything with copper in it, starts to break down get dissolved if you leave it in too long.

Steel and cast iron are probably not affected. At least nothing I've noticed yet.

John


----------



## steamer

Hey John,

Thanks for the support and interest!  I've avoided putting bronze in, but I've not had any problems with aluminum so far.

I only put the saddle parts in thus far. I'll completely disassemble the apron first ......but duely noted!  Watch the bronze parts!

Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Hi Dave!

Looking good!!!!
Wish i could i find some of the bits you have found lately!!!

Always noce to see the pics of what you are up too!
Took me a while to figure out what SG was though.... :big:

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the interest and support.  There is no secret as to were I'm looking for my components...ebay.

It's out there which is why I decided to make this lathe my "small" lathe. There are parts and accessories a plenty.

If you look at what some of this would cost new...the prices are not at all bad...actually they are quite cheap. In the end....and it will be a while still, it will be the lathe I want to use.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Turned the saddle over in the bucket and the paint and grime are gone on the submerged section. The brass felt holders for the ways are nice and bright and clean, not discolored....I'll investigate further this evening.

I am thinking I'll have to line bore the apron to straighten out the worm gear bearing.....but I'm not sure of the datum....if the hole is worn real out of round....how do I pick up on it?

I'm thinking a location shaft to the nominal diameter held between centers on the lathe to locate, then replace with a between centers boring bar...but I'm up for suggestions!

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK

I got the two gears in question off.  I was convinced the gear was bronze....its not! :big:

It's steel.  There is some wear on the teeth, but it's alright

The wear in the housing is what concerns me...the inside of the apron is pretty crusty....what I saw was wear debri from what I thought was a bronze component....but the two gears are steel....I'll need to clean more to find out what's going on. The bore in question appears to be part of the cast iron apron.  The mating worm gear shaft is also steel and outwardly looks pretty good....can't see any obvious wear marks so it could all be in the housing.  I'll post some pictures in a bit.

Like I said, it is still far to crusty to really tell yet....












As to SG.

I pulled the saddle out and I found some rust on the part that was above the surface of the liquid....not deep and it came right off with the brass brush. I then looked at the brass way wipers ....they were Red!  OK....I checked them and it was completely superficial....brass underneath a very thin outer layer.  It will clean up fine.

I then pulled the rear way gib and pulled it out. It had been in the soup for a day and a half.  The outside had a brass hue to it that will not come off. Not on the machined surfaces, but the rough cast surfaces.....No worries as it's painted but it was noticeable.

I would say that the SG is acting as an electrolyte. I would have to agree that SG can do wierd things. I would suggest that you not mix metals in the soup.  I think some plating is going on.

The two parts were painted tonight.  along with some other parts that have been cleaned already.,,,,again more pictures to come.

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK I cleaned the gears and took some measurements.  The worm shaft is a consistent .995" and looks like its still round.

I measured the mating bore of the apron and its about 1.005",,,,doesn't sound like much but it wobbles quite a bit.

There is about .02-.03" of axial shake, which seems excessive.

I'll need to tear it down completely and measure the bore more accurately .  there isn't a great deal of meat on the bore....so we will have to see ...

Dave


----------



## steamer

The apron is in the soup.  I've finished painting the saddle and gib. I've also painted the faceplate, the catch plate, and the drawbar hanger bracket. I'll need to evaluate the half nuts for wear which looked somewhat significant

Nothing I can do but fix or replace the parts as required. 

Dave


----------



## steamer

Half nuts are toast! I got some work to do!

Do I repair them or replace them?

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK

The apron casting is stripped and cleaned

The worm bushing:
I'm going to bore the housing in the inverted position 1/16" over size for a undersize cast iron bushing. The OD of this bushing will have a groove cut to allow for the felt wick.  the bore will be 0.760" to match the worm bore. I will set the apron up on my boring table on the Logan lathe at a height that will allow the worm and bull gear to mesh correctly. That should be correct.  Additionally I am going to line bore the half nuts to machine away the worn nut section in preperation to the bronze insert replacement.

Once bored oversize, and without moving the apron, I'll bond in the bushing into the housing and then bore to fit the worm with .003" clearance...that will take care of that issue.

The half nuts are shot.  I'm going to bore them out and bond in a bronze nut with JB weld and pins.  After that I'll remove the nut from the assembly and pin it, and then split it.  I'll make an extra nut for future repair.

Here's some picture of the housing. The bore is out of round by .005 and over size by .007. The worm is an even .995", so I will work with that.

This will be a complex repair but I think I can do it.

















The last picture is the position that I will bore the bearing on my Logan.





Dave


----------



## lathohn

Hi Dave,

I've also run into the problem of what seemed like parts getting plated by another metal while soaking in Krud Kutter.

If I remember correctly, most were just plain cast iron parts, but there was a drum switch cover in the bath as well. I'm not entirely sure if it was copper, brass, or aluminum. But after a day or two, whatever part I pulled out of it, it was looking reddish. It was at that point that I realized that soft metals are reacting with the solvent. I thought the "plating" was permanent, but I took the drum switch cover out, and left the iron parts in there for few more days. Eventually, the red "plating" deposit that was on them just went away on its own. I think, whatever dissolved out of the softer metal, eventually just settled to the bottom of the container.

---

I've seen new old stock half nuts on ebay. Pricey though. There was a pair that recently went for $137.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330670953452

There is one dealer selling two NOS sets, but he is charging an arm and a leg ($258/$289):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300656468317
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300647650246

So I'm looking forward to see how you do the half nut repair. Where are you gonna get the bronze bushing for repair? MSC, McMaster-Carr?

Are you going to tap the ACME thread or single point thread it?

Good luck.
John


----------



## chuck foster

great work as always dave :bow:

i thought this might help you with the half nut repair
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/repairing-half-nut-threads-129446/

i repaired a set of half nuts for the first 9" lathe i had and i just built up a bunch of brazing in the threaded part of the nuts.
i then made a jig to hold them in the lathe at work and bored them out and single point cut the threads. they worked just fine.

keep up the good work and thanks for showing us the step by step process of restoring your lathe. will you do mine next???

chuck


----------



## steamer

John and Chuck, Thankyou for your interest and support!

Chuck that's the reference I was reading and the approach, and John if I can find NOS half nuts for $137 , they'd be bought! ;D

The nuts could be used as is for a little while, but considering I have it all apart, it makes no sense to put them back. 

The nut I'm going to single point...and I'm going to make two.
I had an opportunity to buy a nut blank, but that appears to be a false lead.  So, I'll single point it on the Logan...two mind you....1 for later.
This one shouldn't be as hard as the last one I made....a .354-10 LH nut for my Waltham.  That one was tedious.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/P1010113.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/P1010123.jpg

Dave


----------



## steamer

Hey Chuck, 

Do you have a picture of that fixture that you used to single point the theads in the half nut?

Would love to see how you did that.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Did a bit of measureing this morning and found that the side of the bore near the worm is barely worn because it aligns with a relief groove in the worm shaft. Just behind that I found the wear, and all in one direction, tending in the direction to take the gears out of mesh obviously.  I've developed a plan of action, now I need to get me a piece of stock for an alignment mandrel and make up the bushing and a thrust washer.  I'll be making the bronze threaded inserts also.  So some lathe time ahead...












Dave


----------



## steamer

Got the bronze bar on order. Bronze isn't cheap these days is it!
 :wall:

Dave


----------



## coopertje

Hi Dave,

Nothing valuable to add, just want to say "Great work!!!" :bow: :bow:

This is what a restoration is all about, checking every single bit, repair, renew, etc. Not just clean and paints!

Regards Jeroen


----------



## kozzmo999

Great Thread! Didn't I sell you some parts for this lathe at some point???

I joined this forum just to keep up with this thread...time to explore a bit.

Once again for a rank amateur like myself this is a really fun thread, keep posting!!

David


----------



## steamer

Jeroen and David,

Thankyou for your interest and support!  Dave, I believe your handle sounds familiar! ;D......Which bit?....a steady or the turret tailstock?...I think the later.

It's coming....she'll be a nice lathe in the end I think...that's the goal anyway.

I have NO intention of rescraping or regrinding the bed....I don't THINK it's warranted.....but I'll guess we'll see.  Mostly just repair what's broken and worn out and bring back to good working order....I think she will be.

She has the large dial option, but it also has the ball thrust bearing option on the cross slide screw....Don't know if that's normal or not,,,,but it is nice!

Dave


----------



## bronson

This is been a very interesting thread. I have learned a lot from the repairs that you have done. I bought a southbend model b 1953 9" 3.5 bed about two years ago and back then cleaned, repainted and replaced wicks and has been a great machine a hundred times better then my old lathe. I am looking forward to the half nut repair as i have two sets but both are worn. Keep up the great work.


----------



## kozzmo999

I had the bed ground on a 3 1/2' under mount motor 9A.

Got done for less than $300, if you can get it done cheap enough why not? considering you are going through everything and milling and scraping other parts why not do everything. 

Almost seems like, with all you have done, dealing with the bed would just be part of the whole thread!

David


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## steamer

Hey Dave,

Who did the grind and when?  $300 is pretty cheap....the flaking is still showing though...even by the chuck...only just barely at that point.

Dave


----------



## steamer

I'm chuffed!

I fitted the index latch on the turret tailstock, it needed the boss around the shaft reduced in diameter, and I moved the pin anchor up 1/8 of an inch, and presto! she indexes perfectly!

Put her away, and I now I found a NOS set of half nuts for a reasonable price, so that was procured!

Now just need to get through the bushing!

Wished I found the half nuts before I bought the bronze, but .....such is life.

I'll write up how I was going to do the half nuts, 

Dave


----------



## steamer

Just got this lamp

Halogen with a mag base and water proof. At a reasonable price







Dave


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## GailInNM

Dave,
I had a lamp that looked like it had the same head on it as the one you just got. It worked very well for a about two years. All the wiring inside of the head cooked and the insulation fell off. Eventually it shorted. I tried to replace the wiring with silicon wire, but eventually gave up as every thing was cooked and brittle. I had noticed the smell of overheated insulation in the shop for a while but could not isolate where it was coming from.

Mine came with a 50 watt bulb in it. You might want to consider changing to a 35 watt bulb if yours has a 50 watt bulb in it also.

As I say, it worked well, but keep an eye on it. Take a look at the internal wiring on the head when ever you change bulbs.

Gail in NM


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the Heads up Gail! I'll do that!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, tonight I performed a test set up on the lathe to verify that the set up was attainable and stable.

I turned up a bushing who's OD was equal to the inside diameter of the unworn section of the worm bearing and the ID size to be a snug push fit on the lathes leadscrew.

I then put the SB leadscrew in the Logan.....in a 5C collet chuck in the hs side and on a center for the other end.
With the bushing in the bore and the half nuts closed, I determined what thickness of packing piece I would need to get the apron on center. ( 0.510)

I set two adjustable parallels to this dimension and set them up.

I checked the alignment by replacing the bushing with the worm gear and it didn't feel right.

I noticed that the leadscrew was .005" HIGHER on the HS side than the tailstock side, so I lowered the HS side by .005".

That got it!
But how could I be sure!


----------



## steamer

So what to do

I decided that it would be best to measure this from the lathe side, so I brought the saddle to the end of the bed and installed the leadscrew hanger with a tight fitting shaft installed and measured the drop






I took that dimension (2.394") and transferred it to the Logan via some gage blocks and a indicator. 






It was within .001" and the worm floated on the leadscrew by the amount of the clearance between the components.
This tells me that I got the same answer by asking the question in two different ways....or to say it cross checked.

I don't think I can get it any better than that.

Knowing now that I can achieve the correct alignment on the Logan, Next I'll break this set up down and turn the bushing for the part, then set back up and then replace the leadscrew with a between centers boring bar and line bore and bond the bushing in place.  Then finish the bushing to size.


----------



## steamer

Started on the bushing tonight.....but got tied up.......

GO PATS!!!!


Dave


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## steamer

Congrats Giants ...you earned it.


----------



## steamer

OK, got the bushing done.
















I'll have to bond the part in.  I'll use Loctite 648 cylindrical bonding compound.

You'll notice the "keyway" on the OD that pierces the flange . That is for the bearing wick.
Once the bushing is installed, it will be bored in place to .996"/.998".  When I get to that diameter, I will have broken into that keyway.  That will allow the installation of the SouthBend designed replacement wick. Just like the original.

The flanges are designed and sized to take up the .06" ( ) worth of axial wear the old girl has suffered.

At that point, I'll put back the parts and the NOS half nuts and we're done with the apron.

Next....the BED and the base.....stripping that should be fun. :
Dave


----------



## steamer

Well....got as far as getting the apron back up on the Logan and nearly complete with the alignment for boring. Then ran out of steam....long day

This weekend holds promise!

Dave


----------



## crab

I'm still watching Dave,your doing an amazing job.I have not been able to start on my 9A yet but I hope to soon.Thanks for showing all your great work,I have learned a lot.
Bill


----------



## steamer

Crab, thanks for your interest and support!

OK , got the bore......bored ;D





The bushing is a nice fit with about the correct clearance for the 648 Loctite.





Then I put the washer on the back side, you'll notice the "captured" wick groove.  Once it's to proper size, the groove will open up and I'll have my factory wick groove back.






Got to let it set for a while...maybe later today.

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK Mission complete!







Here's the wick groove





Ready to go back together





Progress!

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Wow, 

been away for some time and you have almost finished the restoration! Hold it, I want to savor the process!

Will study the updates since december!

:bow: :bow:

take care 

tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Tom! Thankyou for your interest and support!

OK the apron is back together!  All except the half nuts, which I am waiting for.

All wicks are in and everything is painted and lubricated.

From behind,,






From the front.






That was satisfying to see....a real transformation...everything turns nice and smooth

So that brings up the next question....Now What?

I am seriously thinking about putting it all together as is and doing some checking before I strip and paint the bed.

The bed is very long and quite heavy, and I will need to work on the logistics of managing it carefully

I'll think on that.

Dave


----------



## lathohn

Great work on the apron. 

I'm curious though. Did you do any polishing on the machined surfaces, and if so, what's your recipe? Steel wool, scotch-brite?

John


----------



## steamer

John,
Thankyou for your interest!

On the handwheels, scotchbrite in the lathe....Everything else was just cleaned in the soup ...and occassionally a bit of polish on a rag.

The SG will take superficial rust off. A brass bristle brush and SG can do wonders!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well I took stock of the realities of my shop at the moment.
There is no room!  I need to make a temporary tank to clean the bed.  The bed is 54" long! So I'm looking at a 5 foot long tank, nearly a foot deep!  I really want to strip it via Simple Green and a brush that I've had so much luck with to date.
But there is no way I can do this, as the shop is crowded now...it won't be functional with that tank in there.

It's half way through February. Here's my plan.

I'll leave the bed as is for now and focus on the smaller stuff for a few weeks. Things are coming to a head at work, so I know more hours are in my future....meaning less time for the 9!. 

So Here's the list in order of priority ....at least for today. 

Make the gib for the T slotted Cross slide and install the rest of the hardware in it.
Add the adjustment block to the TS base.
Mount the bed to the base.
Mount the countershaft bracket and countershaft and motor...if for no other reason than to get it off the floor!
Level the bed and check the alignments.  Scrape in the TS to height.
Buy and install the belts.
Build the collet draw so I can put the collets away.
Put the casters on the base.
Machine the clamp screw for the QCTP
Wire the motor.

By that time, the weather should be good enough to pull the bed off and paint the bed and the base outside where there is room.
Dave


----------



## steamer

After the above is done:

Overhaul the lever action collet closer
Paint and make functional the lever action cross slide.
Repaint the turret tailstock and the milling attachment.
Put door handles on the base cabinet.
Make a high speed spindle.
Lever action cross slide gib replacement...I may do this sooner as I'll be set up.
Auxillary spindle drive and idler pulley stand for the high speed spindle.
Other storage options...Maybe a backsplash with shelves?

Dave


----------



## Maryak

This is going to be the mother of all South Bends on the planet :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Well, I've suffered with old worn out lathes long enough to want something better ....now that I've gotten some hard won experience, I know what it is I want .....so now I'm trying to get just that.

Am I indulging? Probably.....but I earned it and I know plenty of men my age who spend WAY more money on far more trivial objects of affection....or affliction...as the case may be.

In the end , I'll be using the lathe for projects that I want to do, and teaching my son at the same time, an education you can't buy today anywhere.....that's money and time well spent in my book.

Dave


----------



## bronson

I can't wait to see your southbend lathe finished with all those rare factory options it will be a dream to use. 

Bronson.


----------



## steamer

Got the NOS half nuts today!....SWEET!

I'll put them on this weekend!

I found a new problem, the nose of the compound swivel, on the side of the clamp screws is worn .002"  This is because the previous owner turned the compound without ever cleaning under it.  OK so that's the bad news

The good news is the new T slotted cross slide is nice and flat and should make a nice reference to scrape it back in.
That won't take too long.

Maybe I'll bring it to the show tomorrow.....we'll see

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK got some scraping to do.

The compound base is worn at the nose. Kinda like a snow ski.

It's flat at the back and swoops up at the front ahead of the pivot.
This comes from the operator not cleaning the cross slide before he rotated the compound. There are two design features of the Southbend that exacerbate this problem

The compound pivot is clamped via two wedges that bear on a tapered pivot that is part of the compound base.
These two wedges act on the front half of the pivot diameter only. Nothing on the back half

Additionally, the bearing area of the compound base is at it's smallest over this area. This area is the dirtiest part of the lathe right under the cut zone of the tool. When the compound is loosened and then swiveled with out cleaning this area, dirt and chips get under it and act like abrasive...and of course, this is the area where the clamping force is the highest!

The wear here , because of the way it's clamped can be detrimental to the performance of the lathe. Instead of laying down flat against the bearing surface of the cross slide, when the clamps are tightened, the nose of the compound tips down and the rear tips up. The compound isn't sitting on its bearing surface anymore, but is now like a "See saw"...depending on how the cutting forces are transmitted to the compound, it can start to move and vibrate under a cut.

Unclamped, I push down onthe back of the compound and nothing happens, push on the front and it bounces .002"
So I need to correct this. 

Dave


----------



## steamer

Additionally, I'll need to create a master to scrape the top of the Tailstock Base. This master will need a groove in it to clear the tongue on the TS base. 

So, if you go back a ways, I mentioned that the first TS base I started was scrapped when the endmill pulled out.
I'll use this piece of stock as the basis of a scraping master. But it will be recycled into a useful tool once that purpose has been completed.

Dave


----------



## Mosey

How did you determine whether the TS was at the proper height relative to the HS? (dumb question)


----------



## steamer

Hi Mosey,

Not a dumb question at all!
I swept the tailstock spindle with a indicator mounted to the headstock spindle.  It was about .018" low at the TS side

that was the data I used to make the decision to make a new TS base.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Hi Mosey,

I'll try to stage the indicator set up to sweep the tailstock this weekend.

I had a rather unpleasant revelation this past Thursday. The Saddle was not flat!

It was touching on the front "V" but was rocking on the back "V". I was convinced that it had worn that way....but checking the movement...all .003" of it, it was the same anywhere on the bed......OK What's up?

So I marked up the tailstock end of the bed....like the Headstock end, this part of the bend is pretty much pristine and original...of this there is no question.  I rubbed the carriage there and low and behold, the front V had pretty good bearing , but the rear was touching at 1 point!

The saddle was twisted!  OK...the front V showed signs it was rotated ....so lets do this I started scraping the rear V at the high tailstock side and slowly brought the surface down...as I did the front V bearing got better and better, so I didn't scrape it at all...just the rear V.  Pretty soon it was touching on both the front and rear V way in the back and I slowed down and gently finessed it in.  And there it was ....rock solid on the ways again and showing a good bearing.

I put my T slotted cross slide on the saddle and swept the table along the long axis of the lathe and it's parallel to the ways within .0003" over 4 1/2 inches.... I'll leave that be.

Next I need to install the countershaft and bolt down the bed for real to level it.  I have a more optimistic outlook about her now.



Dave


----------



## bronson

Sounds like we should see this lathe running in the near future. :big: Doing a great job. :bow:

Bronson


----------



## steamer

What I think happened is 60 plus years of stress relaxation happened. I think it was flat when new, but relaxed as time went by.  Man my right arm hurts right now......but the beer tastes good! ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer

Bronson

Thanks for your interest and support!

I can't quantify "near future" at the moment....but I've just about convinced myself I don't need to regrind the bed....as the wear appears minimal

We'll find out soon enough

Dave


----------



## steamer

I scraped in the compound last night and this morning. The guides had been scored from dirt and lack of oil, but it came in pretty quick....its WAY better than it was when I started!







To do this you scrap the bottom of the compound flat ways to the surface plate, then use this as a master to scrape in the swivel base flat ways.

Then I scraped in the top of the compound parallel to the flat ways. Here's a early on markup






This surface was worn very hollow ...about .0025" and leaning toward the front. I started with a file to bring it in to about .001" and then scraped it in from there. At the end I used a flat blade and draw scraped it so that it would match the cross slide appearance. It's parallel to about .0004....






I then scraped in the bottom of the swivel compound. I used the cross-slide as a template  It didn't take very long. You can see the mark up and also the reference...the marking is pretty well removed.....It sucks right down tight with a dab of oil now.








I may still need to tweek the cross slide flat ways on the saddle, but I think for the most part the scraping is done on the saddle components.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Went to my home town "Tractor Supply" that just opened up.  NICE PLACE!

I bought 3 casters for the base to make it mobile.  I started to make the frame work that will hole up the base from 3 x 4 x .25" angle and 1x1 angle

I'll post more as I get there.

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK yesterday and today I spent stripping and degreasing the lathe bed. I had to set up a temporary tank to set it in while it soaked in simple green






The tank lined and ready to go.






And with the SG in. 





I eventually took the bed feet off.   

I'll post some of the aftermath once they're loaded

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's the lathe the next morning.....






And ready to paint.






I found that during the night it got cold....about 40 F while it was nearly 70 during the day.

The old rule of a chemical process rate doubles or halves for every 10 degrees certainly held true!

During the night, the SG cooled down and very little happened....I needed to warm it up in the moring with more hot water to get it to kick

I recycled the SG into my "soup bucket" and cleaned out what was in that.

That way I get to use this stuff for a while.


Dave


----------



## steamer

After the bed came out and was set to drain, I washed it down with isopropyl alchohol ( standard dry gas)

That drys the part without leaving a residue.


Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, I am setting up the base to mount the casters, and then mount the lathe to it. In preperation to do that I needed to strip the top of the base of it's two coats of paint.  SG started to work if I sprayed it on, but on a part this size laying flat, it's not real effective.  I resorted to Citristrip for this application, its a big flat surface, and it all came off in a couple of coats with a putty knife.  I'll need to mount the lathe and the countershaft so that I can size and order the belt.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Score! 

Got a pair of factory leveling feet off the bay.  That will help in fine tuning the leveling of a lathe that will probably be moved alot.

Dave


----------



## crab

Look'in good Dave,this is going to be a great lathe whin you are done.I think you will find all your hard work well worth it when you are done.
Bill L.


----------



## steamer

Thanks Bill!  I'm hoping!

Dave


----------



## lazylathe

OOOOH!!! You got the feet with the levelling adjusters!!! ;D
You lucky bugger you!!! ;D

Enough with the teasing lets see some more action shots!!!!

Andrew


----------



## steamer

It's like a fine wine Andrew......like a fine wine.

Patience my friend.... ;D

I've got some vacation coming...I'll put some time in then.

Got some nice latches for the doors.  The old ones were shot, so.....


Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Fine wine does not last too long in this house!!!! ;D

LOL!!!
Take your time!!!
You are giving me inspiration to start working on mine!

So far all i have done is strip the fixed and travelling steady rests... :

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Well, I have a "go to" lathe already.  That is a great help as it lets me work on the SB as I can.

Don't take yourself out of service!  Do a Subassembly at a time...and then enjoy it.

The rebuild kits on EBAY are pretty damn good.  They have what you need.

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Dave, 

this is just great. I really like the way this progressed, really great -- and a lot of work!

take care,
tom in MA.


----------



## coopertje

Still (quietly) following along Dave. Very nice work on your lathe and i am jelous on your scraping skills!

Regards Jeroen


----------



## steamer

Jeroen and Tom,

Thankyou for your interest and support....it's a long project!
The leveling feet have been stripped.....and lucky for me the painted over" level adjust" placard which I am sure is completely "unobtanium"came through it beautifully!
I'm on vacation this week and the honey do list is long, but I expect to get some work done on her!
Step one....get the bed on the bench and get the leveling /caster system together.

Then level up, mount the countershaft, and properly check the bed....I have a master precision level just waiting for her.

We'll find out for sure the condition of the bed....once and for all!

That's a weeks work and then some! :big:


Dave


----------



## mklotz

steamer  said:
			
		

> I'm on vacation this week and the honey do list is long, but I expect to get some work done on her!



Ambiguous pronoun antecedents are one of the banes of modern grammar.


----------



## steamer

That's OK Marv....Mama knows which one she is... ;D


Dave


----------



## Mosey

Marv,
The ability to resist those correctives will be the bedrock of your rehabilitation.
Mosey


----------



## Holt

This renovation is certainly the most extensive and beautiful one i have seen :bow:. I am glad my renovation isn't that big, but i would love to own the result. I am sure you will treasure it once it is finished

Holt


----------



## Don1966

Dog gone Dave I am Jealous I am looking for new lathe and you are rebuilding a classic. Wish I had the time to do that, work is too demanding for me. Of course I don't want to retire yet mind you. Your doing dam go job of rebuilding this one.

Regards Don


----------



## steamer

Hi Holt and Don!
Thank you for your support and kind comment! :bow:




			
				Don1966  said:
			
		

> Dog gone Dave I am Jealous I am looking for new lathe and you are rebuilding a classic. Wish I had the time to do that, work is too demanding for me. Of course I don't want to retire yet mind you. Your doing dam go job of rebuilding this one.
> 
> Regards Don



Well, it would be done if I was retired! :big:

I want this one to last 40 years..........I hope the effort will be worth it!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Hey GailNM!

The bulb on the new halogen light blew!  I took it out and sure enough it's a 24V 50W .

The bulb is readily available online for like $2....I bought 3.

The wiring is fine as far as I can tell.....but I'll keep an eye on it

Dave


----------



## steamer

Did a test paint of a small portion of the inside of the bed.  One of the things you always have a hard time to do with an old lathe with dark paint is trying to see the tool tip against the part....you need some contrast behind the tool to see it properly. I usually resort to some white paper....but there is another way

As part of my research on SB's, I found that you could get the inside of the bed painted a "cream" color which made looking at your tools a lot easier.....Hmmmm says I!

I have some Rustoleum "Gloss Almond" that is a very light "Buff" so I tried it.....Looks great against the smoke gray!....and shows up real well! .....without being garrish!

So it shall be! ;D

Dave


----------



## GailInNM

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hey GailNM!
> The bulb on the new halogen light blew!  I took it out and sure enough it's a 24V 50W .
> The wiring is fine as far as I can tell.....but I'll keep an eye on it



Dave,
As I recall I was on the third or fourth bulb before the wires turned to crispy critters. I am glad you remembered to look.
Gail in NM


----------



## steamer

Oh I'll keep and eye on it for sure Gail....I've been leaving it on for a while ....and giving the sniff test per your experience....so far nothing yet.

Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Painting the inside of the bed a lighter color is a great idea!!!!
I remember seeing some pics of lathes with a cream colour inside bed.
Never really stopped to think why they did it but now it makes sense!!

This lathe is going to be amazing when you are done wit it Dave!! ;D

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Thanks Andrew!


I put the first coat on....it'll take at least three to fill the rough cast surface and smooth it out!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Drilled the cabinet for the feet, and put the first coat of paint on the bed....looks good!

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Hey Dave I hope we see some pictures soon.

Don


----------



## steamer

Hey Don, here ya go.













2 coats inside and one outside.......Nothing really special I think....but it looks better than when I got her! :big:

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Wow! It really looking good Dave. Will you be putting DRO'S on it too. 

Don


----------



## steamer

Ya know....I don't have a DRO on anything I own....but I think I'll put one on this.

I'm thinking DRO Pro's 2 axis........but not right now.....I've sunk enough into her already...need to get her running now.....then....well my birthday is coming in June...... ;D


Dave


----------



## steamer

New question....and one of asthetics.

This lathe had the "South Bend" logo cast into a recess in the front of the bed. The photo above shows that.

OK what to do with it? Namely how should I paint it?

I've come down to two courses of action:

A.    Paint the background the base gray and paint the raised letters black.


B.    Paint the background SB red and paint the raised letters black.


I'm looking for a "Less is more" with this lathe...like "A", ......but the red background route would go good with the QC box threading chart.. Like "B" ....hence my quandry.

What say you guys?

Dave


----------



## Holt

I would go with option B with a thin gold stripe at the outher edge

Holt


----------



## steamer

Well, I decided to go with "B"....the casting feature doesn't really allow for much of a "border", so just the red and black letters.....

I'm using a "Regal Red" from Rustoleum.  It's a very dark red.

Inspiration.....





Dave


----------



## Don1966

Hah! Dave I would go with B also I like the red with gold trim.

Don


----------



## arnoldb

Thm: I love the blue Dave; the old girls going to look stunning when done.

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## steamer

It does have a bit of blue in it don't it! :big:

Thanks for the kind words Arnold!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, I've got quite a bit done today...but still a bunch left to do.

Next is the cabinet levelers...and then I can level up and check the bed....


Additionally, I'll need to extend the belt tension arm...but that's easy

A ways to go for sure
but it coming











Dave


----------



## Don1966

Gee Dave that is going to be one nice lathe, your doing a great job on it. I can see you don't take shortcuts, and It does look a little blue, I love it. 

Don


----------



## steamer

I think the blue might be the Droid camera.....but it looks good anyway

I's supposed to be "Smoke Gray".....at least according to the can of Rustoleum! :big:

Dave


Here's an earlier shot of the headstock....same paint job though....different camera!






I think the flash in my Droid has a bit of blue in it.....ya think!?


----------



## Don1966

Whether it is the camera or not it looks good and has a tint of blue. Keep um coming.

Don


----------



## lazylathe

That is going to be a beaut Dave!!!!

Love the cream on the inside of the bed!!
Very classy! Thm:

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Holt and Don, and Andrew!

Thankyou for your kind comments.....leveling feet and belt sizing today.  

I'm getting itching to REALLY check the bed out....I hope the wear is truly as minor as it appears.

Dave


----------



## steamer

The belt size will be 52.5"...actual measurement at middle of adjustment was 52.25.


I am going to go with the serpentine belt, 1" wide.
I have two choices....I can splice and or glue a belt together or I can disassemble the HS and the countershaft and install it as one piece. I am going to go with the 1 piece so once I'm done with the inspection of the bed, I'll tear it all apart and install the belt.

I was thinking as I was contemplating this, wouldn't it be nice to have a row of index holes in the bull gear like my old Atlas had!  It had an index pin and a row of 60 holes.  As I'm going to use this lathe with my existing tooling, ie AXA QCTP and all the attachments I have already made for it, It would be really nice to have

Now how many holes?
60 is the general number on Watchmakers lathes. Besides doing basic division for wrench flats and hexes for bolt heads, 60 gives enough divisions so that when making cutter, it's easy to put say 6 degrees of rake on the back of the cutting edge just by going 1 hole, and file the relief using the filing rest.

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, and 60.

Southbend did this as an option





as taken from the www.lathes.co.uk site

Since the bull gear will be off, I'll set it up and put the holes in.  I think I'll use 3/32" holes put in while the gear is mounted to a rotary table. I'll do it on the Van Norman....

The index pin will be fixed and attached to a spring arm, mounted to a block that clamps on the front bed way.

This block will do double duty as a dial indicator saddle stop block also.

One thing to keep in mind is that the gear guard and the back gear pin are very close....so I'll have to sort that part out as I go. For the light work I have in mind, I think it will be fine.....no 25 HP cuts with this set up though! :big:


BUT NOT THIS WEEK!

 ;D

Dave


----------



## Holt

If you could find space for *two* rows of holes, a 60 hole row for the divisions you mention, and a 72 hole row for angular divisions. 

Holt


----------



## steamer

Hmmmmmm.....we'll check it out....but it's tight!...

Dave


----------



## steamer

Checked the space available....no way to do two...it will just barely fit one!

Got the leveling/caster brackets and cross bracing done....time to mount in on the base....I always hate laying down and drilling holes in steel.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's the leveling feet and caster mounts....just got them mounted on the base....works good!

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Hey Dave this might be a dumb question, but if you put casters on the legs and you move the lathe say to another part of the shop. Will you have to relevel the lathe? I am knew to this so I do not know. Still here waiting for the finally. 

Don


----------



## steamer

Don,
Thank you for your interest.

You are correct, if I move the lathe, it will need to be releveled.  The posts in the picture above are threaded leveling legs that will lift the lathe off the casters once I have it in place.  To move the lathe, I will lower the lathe back down onto the casters and move it to where I need it. It only needs to lift a tiny bit to level it.

The leveling feet get the lathe level front to back and left to right. The leveling foot on the lathe takes the twist out if there is any.....and with a bed this long, there probably will be some. :

Dave


----------



## rake60

Looking good Dave!

Rick


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the kind words Rick!

Well that was a productive day!

I leveled up the bed on the base using a machinists level first to get close. Then I put my precision level (.0005/div/10")
on and checked and adjusted the bed reference surfaces to dead level in both directions. The leveling foot and my leveling feet worked great and my concrete floor is over an 1" out of level over 5 feet! 

Then I mounted the saddle to the bed and put a level on the cross slide.....way out of level across the bed....ok maybe it's my table?  So I mounted the table on the reference surfaces of the bed and the level said the table is parallel to the bed.  OK I scraped the table right!...but why out so much?

The saddle either wasn't scraped in correctly or has worn more on the leadscrew side. It took a .010" shim to bring the level up on the leadscrew side....OK I'll deal with this later

I then traversed the saddle down the bed and noted the change in the level every 3 inches or so. I went from the far far right all the way to up against the headstock.

The bed has wear ( that's no shock ....it's 60+ years old!) and the wear is located about 8 inches from the HS....right where you would expect it, low on the front of the bed ( the leadscrew side).

The level read 6 divisions...which is .003" /10 inches.   The ways on the SB are aproximately 5" (+/-) wide.  That tells me the bed has approximately .0015" maximum wear on the front way.  This is not much for it's age and is consistant with the amount of "degradation" I see of the scraping marks in the area in question. Additionally, I can't see any wear ridges in the area, so the wear can't be much. So at least the evidence is consistant with the data!

So now what!?.......

The saddle wear is a bit troubling, though I don't know if its really going to matter.  I could rescrape the bottom to bring it level , but I will need to be careful that I don't adversly impact the leadscrew alignment...so I'll need to bring the front bearing down while I bring the rear bearing down more to keep the leadscrew alignment.......I'll need to really check the leadscrew alignment before I get to far down the road here......I am concerned about the front to back position at the moment, but I don't want too ahead of myself.


The bed wear is very small....suprisingly so!  I checked for zero as I did my measurements and It all repeated quite well!

Guess I'll sleep on this and ponder the next move while I read up on Connelly.......decisions decisions!

Dave


----------



## Maryak

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hmmmmmm.....we'll check it out....but it's tight!...
> 
> Dave



Dave,

Dumb questions but how big is the bull wheel and how big do you need to make the holes ???

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Hi Bob

Thanks for the interest! 

The bull wheel is approximately 5.19" to the PD, and I think it's 16 DP and 83 tooth

The tight space is between the teeth of the gear and the back gear pin....I have maybe less than 3/8" of space to get the holes into, and I need to make sure I can reach the holes when I use them!....The picture above kinda points this out I think... I would use 3/32" diameter index holes....but I have be able to reach past the back gear pin when it comes around
Dave


----------



## Maryak

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hi Bob
> 
> Thanks for the interest!
> 
> The bull wheel is approximately 5.19" to the PD, and I think it's 16 DP and 83 tooth
> 
> The tight space is between the teeth of the gear and the back gear pin....I have maybe less than 3/8" of space to get the holes into, and I need to make sure I can reach the holes when I use them!....The picture above kinda points this out I think... I would use 3/32" diameter index holes....but I have be able to reach past the back gear pin when it comes around
> Dave



OK, but counting the holes in the picture I get around 80 on the circumference. IMHO it's more than 60.:-\

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Hi,

Read up on Connelly regarding how to proceed with the bed.  I think he answered my question.

He calls for the saddle to be scraped to template quality using the unworn area of the bed as a template. OK I can do that...then a full length straight edge for marking up... :big:...the bed is 54 inches long!..OK you can use a shorter one, but preferably more than half as long as the bed....see section 9

Using that logic, I need a straight edge at least ...30" long.  I have a 12" x 18" surface plate which if I use the diagonal, could be used to make a 20" straight edge.  Still not long enough.  Even if I bought a 30 inch straight edge, I would need a reference surface at least that big to maintain the straight edge....which typically get out of wack and need to be tuned up .

That would require at a minumum a 18 x 24 plate....and not a cheap plate either! A good one!....all said and done, I'm looking at $500 used probably, plus $250 for a straight edge casting, and many hours of machining and scraping to get the straight edge completed....then the work on the lathe could start.......so call it $2000 with CHEAP labor rate :...namely me.

I could get the bed ground. I'm told there is a place in Texas that will regrind them....$2000 plus shipping seems to be the rate......

Now what is .0015" of wear worth ?

The tilt in the saddle can be taken care of with some cunning....using the bed as a template, and the level, I can turn the saddle without moving the apron mount by much.  That would restore the saddle alignment.

Lots to think about........What do ya think?


Dave


PS here's one of the new leveling feet in use.


----------



## steamer

hmmm  I'll look at that Bob....I got that information from the "lathes" site as a caption....I have never actually seen the SB advertisment for that accessory.  Maybe your right!

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK this morning I releveled the bed using the ways instead of the reference surfaces. This required a slight twist of the bed to accomplish....like .001" over 54".  It was very easy to do with the right side leveling foot which does this specifically.

This will not hurt anything on the lathe...especially considering the saddle has been working and it's out .010"!

I then put the .010" shim under the MPL while mounted on the cross slide and zero'd at the far headstock end (unworn)  I then went to the other end (also unworn) and checked zero....still there.  Then I went to the "valley" and checked and the dip was more like 3 divisions now or about .0007".


I'm going to leave the bed as it is with just a bit of cleaning up.  I don't think I'll even be able to measure this in the part during operation.

I will however take the .010" tilt out of the saddle!....I don't think it will be that difficult...just work.

Then I'll be able to level the bed off the cross slide table. I can then clean up the leveling reference surfaces to be parallel to the bed position.  And I'm in business!

OK that's the outside ways.  I need to check the inside ways now.  I'm trusting that they are no worse...but we'll see.

Need to get to the honeydo list.....

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

south bends are quite insensitive to bed wear when it comes to how it reflects on the parts you make. actually, this can be shown... I tried to unearth my calculations but cannot find them now... anyways, I expressed the turned diameter as function of the drop in the bed due to wear (same front and back)... taking differentials, the impact on the turned diameter is very small... Now taking different wear drop front and back may change this conclusion, but this is fundamentally an empirical question... 

I would not touch the bed. See if it holds accuracy that pleases you and only if it doesn't should you tackle this... 

I think you are right that one should be leveling the ways, not the table not the feet... as per south bend and Connelly... yes, all dead level is a static test in Connelly, but this is home shop not NASA.

my $0.02.

take care, 

tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Hi Tom,

Initial measurements would indicate...and say indicate...not confirm...that the rear V is worn .001 in the trough and the front about .003" with a difference of about .0015 - .002" shown on the level....depending on what datum you use to level the bed. In the above case it was using the original leveling references...I suspect I could halve that otherwise

This measured from the inside flat way which is pretty good the full length...and with a MPL on the saddle to measure twist.

My impression at this time is to scrape everything else as if I were to rescrape the bed. Scrape the saddle and TS base to template quality using the unworn area's of the bed .....I can then test the lathe with this wear and see how she does....as you stated.  In the meantime, I'll see if I can put together a plan to scrape the bed in if required....the wear is small enough to be fairly easily done from a amount of stock to remove perspective.  We have a good size surface plate at work, that maybe I could spot a long straight edge on after hours......if there is such a thing :
Lately there doesn't seem to be an end to how many hours I can work in a week!

Ah well....tomorrow I put in a new rain gutter on my porch!  Thrilling! :

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

The leveling feet/ caster arrangement is brilliant. Hats off.

Take care, 
Tom in MA


----------



## lordedmond

Dave

I know you have mentioned this in the past as things to do but how do you test for the convex saddle alinement relative to the head stock spindle centre line , ie to ensure that you can face off with the required 0.001 or so convex.


The reason I ask is that I see a lot of people refurbing lathes so of the far eastern variety they scape this and that ( one has bored out the head stock and fitted a tube to hold the bearings glued in ?? ) the bed /saddle may be good but what about the basic geometry of the spindle to bed to saddle , as I see it if that is not spot on you are lost at sea before you start

congrats on the work you have do to bring the old gal back to a useful life ,as I need personal wheels to get about so a task of that nature is beyond me physically 

so I am afraid I have to fork out for new British Iron in the name of Myford


Stuart


----------



## steamer

Hi Stuart,

I'm going with Connelly on this one.  He outlines two methods for deal with this objective.

I'll use the carriage as a spotting template.....and I'll correct it as I go.

But to do the bed, I still need a straight edge of sufficient size.....and that's still a problem.

I guess the good news is that the saddle is messed up enough that I can do a lot before it really matters and it would still be an improvement! Besides being tipped .010" it was warped .003".... jI took the warp out, but it's far from "template" quality still.

Additionally, I'm going to continue to use the references surfaces for leveling and straightness checks.  They are the best surfaces on the lathe.  and as close to trustworthy as I can get.

Lots of things to think about still......There's a lot going on!....and I don't do this for a living so it's a major learning experience on my side too.

Looks like I have some straight edges to make too........

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

dave, 

where will you find a straight edge blank that big? and how on earth will you lift it to touch up? 

will you have it custom cast?

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## lordedmond

Thanks David

I will continue to watch your progress with interest

I was trained to scrape as an apprentice but not what you may at first think we had lots of very old electrical gear at the Iron works so as an electrician we had to scrape in the old contractor contacts ( I am talking about open switch gear mounted on 2 inch thick slate , no covers all live with just a rubber mat and your brain to keep you safe ) as well as this we had to scrape in the babbit bearings for the old motors and rotary converters


Stuart


----------



## steamer

Hi Tom,

First thing's first,
I need a good plan.  I will elaborate

Dave


----------



## steamer

Tom

Even if I don't scrape the bed Tom, I still need to scrape the guiding and gib ways on the cross slide....that will need an angled straight edge 12" long x 60 degree.  I think I can use this to spot the saddle V ways for flatness and in conjunction with the unworn sections of the bed to match the angles.

I will need to clock the saddle Vways one to the other with two precision ground rods to confirm parallelism and squareness with the dovetail ways.  I think I can use 2 pieces of precision ground Thompson shafting 18" long for this.  

I will need to scrape the top of the TS base so that will require a small flat to check bearing.  I have that blank roughed already.  I'll check the parallelism of the top with the saddle and a dial indicator while mounted on the base.

I will need to check the alignment of the TS and HS tapered sockets so I will need two mandrels, (1) 3Mt and (1) 2MT
I'll order those from RDG tool tonight.

That's what I need to scrape everything BUT the bed.....I'm still doping out how I would do the bed or more specifically, how would I get/make a suitable straight edge...some 30 inches long!....

The gears are spinning.......tell me what I'm doing wrong....PLEASE!....... :

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Tom
> 
> Even if I don't scrape the bed Tom, I still need to scrape the guiding and gib ways on the cross slide....that will need an angled straight edge 12" long x 60 degree.  I think I can use this to spot the saddle V ways for flatness and in conjunction with the unworn sections of the bed to match the angles.



OK, this interests me cause I will soon want to do the same. 

1. I would think that the angle straight edge need not be (should not be) 60 degrees but a tad *less*. As far as I understand what Connelly writes, you need it to assert flatness of the female dovetail, not the angle. In fact you may need some small wiggle room to spot. 

2. An *angle template*, as per Connelly, should be used to spot/check the angle at 60 degrees. The angle template can be much smaller in length, as it asserts the angle and not the flatness. 

3. Connelly says to alternate the two, cycle by cycle. 

Now you seem to be combining the angle straight edge and the angle template in a single tool. This may be kosher come to think of it... I dunno... :-\



> I will need to clock the saddle Vways one to the other with two precision ground rods to confirm parallelism and squareness with the dovetail ways.  I think I can use 2 pieces of precision ground Thompson shafting 18" long for this.



Pardon ma ignorance, monsieur, but what's a Thompson shaft and where can I get it? I want a similar arrangement as you describe... 



> That's what I need to scrape everything BUT the bed.....I'm still doping out how I would do the bed or more specifically, how would I get/make a suitable straight edge...some 30 inches long!....



OK, I would be tempted to say that since said straight edge will be used only once, you can make it out of aluminum. You can generate 3 of them automagically... 
Now what's (not) wrong with my suggestion... :hDe:


> The gears are spinning.......tell me what I'm doing wrong....PLEASE!....... :



wrong? What you plan seems in accordance to what I understand from Connelly, so OK, as far as I know (but I dunno too far, so other's should comment.  )

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Hey Tom,

I can do the straightedge either way.

Thompson shaft is a hardened steel shafting used for ball roller slides in a lot of automation....It' very round.. but only straight within .001-.002" /foot.....It may be a pig in a poke to go that way.

If you read up on Connelly regarding checking the saddle guide ways parallel to each other and square to the cross slide, you'll see the illustration.

As far as a straight edge........I think a 30" should be a minimum.....36" I think would be better
I don't want to use aluminum for this....just cast iron....if I need to at all!

That will require a new plate, and quite a bit of work......but is doable.
The 12 x 18 plate in my shop sits in the middle of my bench...which is a 24+ inch space....so I could mod the bench and fill the footwell with a 18 x 24 plate and not add to the square footage of my shop....which I can't!!!!!!!!

My shop is 11'6" x 18'6".......I've got three lathes, 2 mills , 2 bandsaws, T&C grinder,Drill press, arbor press, stock rack and a 10 foot long bench, and a 4 foot long wall bench.....and a roll around toolbox......and room for 1! :
I'll be glad to get this done so I can make some room in the shop!
Dave

Most importantly I need a plan from A-Z for this...before I get too much farther into this...I'm continuing with the research....


----------



## steamer

Oh and by the way....where to buy a straight edge casting.....try here

http://www.machinerepair.com/Tools.html

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Many thanks...

At some point I'd love to see some photos of your shop to we how to organize mine. I know that you have a Logan and a van Norman. Are the third lathe and the second mill sherlines ?
Otherwise how do they fit ???

Take care,
Tom in MA


----------



## steamer

the other lathe is the Waltham

The other mill is Aciera F1. It's in the foreground in the picture below

Add the SB along the garage door and you get the picture....controlled chaos in this photo....at the moment its in shambles!







It fits VERY TIGHTLY! :big:

Dave


----------



## steamer

Got the HS and TS test arbors yesterday!  NICE!  From RDG tools.  Very reasonably priced also

I will need to verify the accuracy of the arbor , but it appears to be within the .0002" as advertized.

If that is true, the HS spindle taper run out is about .0003" /12".......That'll do!

See there's one component on this thing that doesn't need fixing! :big:

Dave


----------



## steamer

And no I haven't made up my mind what to do about the bed yet....really

Does that sound waffly enough :

But I am getting closer.....

Dave


----------



## vcutajar

Hi Dave

I have been following your rebuild of the lathe with interest. Forgive my ignorance, but what are HS and TS test arbors. I am sure it's something obvious, but can't figure it out.

Vince


----------



## steamer

Hi Vince,

Thanks for checking in!

The Headstock (HS) and Tailstock (TS) test arbors are precision ground cylindrical steel rods of approximately 12" in length with a morse taper shank.  Overall accuracy of these items is .0002" run out full length.  In this case, the HS side is a #3 MT shank and the TS side is a #2 MT shank.

These are used to test alignment of the headstock and tailstock taper axis with respect to eachother and to the ways of the bed.  They are outlined in Connelly's book, "Machine Tool Reconditioning"

It is highly recommended to NOT sleeve one of these arbors up to the next Morse taper size because of the reduction in accuracy.  Hence the need for two seperate arbors for a SB 9.

Just trying to do it by the numbers and correct.

Dave


----------



## vcutajar

Dave

Thanks for the explanation. The HS and TS got me confused there. I actually have one of those with an MT3 taper which fits the headstock and tailstock as they are both MT3. I think it is also called a parallel test bar.

Vince


----------



## steamer

Was over at PM doing some research on bed scraping....which at the moment looks like it's not going to happen...I'll have it ground.

Dennis Turk, a SB restorer of great note, put forth a tomb on SB scraping that can be found here

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/bed-way-scraping-128383/


Based on that I did a little investigation of my bed....and I got to agree with him!

I'll post some pictures....to show what I mean.

Dave


----------



## rkepler

steamer  said:
			
		

> Was over at PM doing some research on bed scraping....which at the moment looks like it's not going to happen...I'll have it ground.



You understand that he was talking about flaking in oil pockets and not about general scraping for flatness? I agree with his analysis but a well scraped flat is truly flat and won't retain oil (or crud) well.

That said - I wouldn't scrape a whole lathe bed anyway, it's a lot easier to have it ground and then use it as the reference surface when scraping everything that sits on it.


----------



## steamer

Yes rkepler I do!

And that is the road I'm heading down.

I'll scrape the saddle in to 10-15 spot with a fairly small radius blade so the bearing is a little hard and I think that will retain more than enough oil for purpose.

What I still can't show is a picture of the evidence to back up Dennis's claim.....and its all over my bed!

Pesky Droid!


Later today hopefully
Dave


----------



## steamer

OK....Look what happened to the bearing on the unworn areas of the bed

these were marked with a small master that I know is flat.with a heavy layer of marking...What Bearing!

TS end





HS end....looks the same






The flaking was put in so heavy it took out most of the bearing surface.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's a picture of the HS test arbor....






Dave


----------



## Don1966

Dave that lathe is sure looking pretty. Do you think you will savage it without to much expense?

Don


----------



## steamer

Hey Don,

Well, from the begining of this journey, I wasn't counting on reconditioning the bed....but it is what it is. It really isn't too bad, I've lived with worse! but its bad enough to annoy me...and I've got plenty of things that annoy me already.....and I've come this far..I'll kick myself if I don't do it!  .I might as well recondition the bed and scrape in the saddle and the TS to it. The Saddle and the TS would have to be scraped anyway....might as well start with a fresh bed with good geometry and use it as the master. Its the only thing left! 

Then the lathe is for all intents and purposes will be a new SB 9A. I'm REALLY liking that idea......It lasted 60 years on the first build....I bet I could get 40 years out of it and because I'll take care of her properly, I'll have a lot left over for my kids!

Guess Im getting the bed ground for my birthday! :big:  (   : ouch!)

Dave


----------



## ttrikalin

Where are you having it ground?
this is intriguing... 

take care, 
tom in MA


----------



## steamer

Hi Tom,

Well I've narrowed it down to a couple of shops.....working out the details.

I think I'll pick one shortly........


Dave


----------



## Mosey

Dave,
Are you able to post your method of determining the proper height of the TS?
Your loyal fans are interested.


----------



## steamer

Hi Mosey,

This is the method put forth by Connelly.

I test bar is installed between centers. One in the HS and one in the TS.
The test bar should be straight, round, and of a constant diameter

It is assumed with this technique that the TS is positioned to turn straight. If an indicator mounted to the carriage and positioned at center height and traversed along the side of the bar show's taper, adjust the TS so that it indicates that the bar is parallel with the travel of the saddle.

With that done

The dial indicator is then put on the carriage, and set to touch the top of the bar exactly on center.  Move the indicator to the HS side and zero the indicator.  Now move the saddle all the way to the tailstock side. Rise or fall will be determined directly from the reading.

For toolroom lathes up to 12" swing, the tolerance is 0- .0008" high at the tailstock......

Hope that helps Mosey!

Dave


----------



## Mosey

Very helpful. Thanks!
I'm afraid to go down and check it!


----------



## steamer

Mosey,

Don't get wound around the axle with the tolerance...its the tolerance for a new or rebuilt lathe....not a limit for useability!  If your within .005" you won't even notice unless your using very small drills or really fussy straightness tolerances.

Dave


----------



## Mosey

Yup. Mines a flame-hardened bed with zero visible wear, so that is no issue. I don't know however if the TS is original, so I need to verify whether they are of the same parents. We shall see.


----------



## steamer

Hey Mosey,

It will also depend on the amount of wear on the TS base. Mine had .018" so I just resorted to making a new one from bar stock.

I will probably set it .001" high and let her wear down for 40 years...I suspect it won't even be .001 low by then! :big:


----------



## rkepler

Tailstock wear can be deceiving - the operator's tendency to grab the back, lift and pull toward the tail end of the bed can cause a preferential wear at the front of the tailstock causing a tilt of the quill when extended. It's almost impossible to figure out where the quill centerline is going to be after scraping in the base. When I refit mine I thought I was going to have to replace a casting (actually, I was going to make a new oversize quill 1/8" bigger and rebore/hone to fit) but when the base was scraped to the ground bed and level I was out only .006", well within what can be handled by shimming the top on the base. .018 is pretty far from that, you start messing with the locking and centering mechanisms by then.


----------



## steamer

I started by getting the quil parallel to the TS body. The body had been dropped at some point in its life and the back had a ding that I took down to the original surface.  Then I took the rocker out of the base and got it somewhat level and measured the. 018.  .....VERY worn!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Rick wanted to see my turret in action......here ya go....I think......we'll find out if I can post video's!





Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Now that is cool, Dave!!!!!!! ;D

I can see that turret coming in very handy in the future for you!!!

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Thanks Andrew!  I've got quite a bit of 5/8" shank tooling to go with it.....I need some die holders.  I'll probably end up making those eventually.

Dave


----------



## steamer

A small update,
I have selected a grind house to do the grinding. Once the PO is placed I'll let everybody in on the house

I have some bills to pay first so the grind will need to wait a month or two. Meanwhile, I will start to correct, repair or build the other parts that I don't need to spend money on.....just time

Work is ramping up again...so I may be sucked back into the long hours...so we'll have to see.

Be patient.

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Aw come on Dave your going to make us wait. It has been to long already. LOL !!! I am anxious to see it completed. That is one nice looking lathe Dave. I hope it doesn't hurt too much.

Don


----------



## steamer

Hi Don,

Thanks for the support!

Well.....it ain't gonna tickle...I'll say that! :'( :'(

But the joy of a quality tool always lasts longer than the pain of paying for it.....or at least that's what I keep telling myself! :wall:

Dave


----------



## Maryak

S'OK Dave,

As you well know.......... "Patience" is my middle name :-\

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Maryak  said:
			
		

> S'OK Dave,
> 
> As you well know.......... "Patience" is my middle name :-\
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



 :big:

Well it's a damn good thing we're both patient!,,,,,,,, :big: *beer*


----------



## steamer

What I could be doing in the meantime......


Mod the Tnut for the AXA toolpost.  That's easy
Complete the gib for the "T" slotted cross slide.  I have the stock...
Complete the fitting of the Cross slide to saddle. Can I do it with an existing straightedge is the question.......mmmmm maybe.  I'll fit the saddle to the bed after the grind job...
Check the Vertical milling slide for geometry ( flat, square and straight).  Correct if required.  It's a Myford copy of far eastern origin...want to take any bets?
AXA mountable High speed mill/drill spindle using 8mm WW collets Leave stock for height fitting later. 
Spindle indexing adapter for F1 dividing head 
Auxillary spindle drive for high speed spindle for "wheel cutting" and drilling.
This is what I want to "copy"....it was made by Rivett






I'll probably ditch the countershaft at the top though

LOTS TO DO!

Dave


----------



## vcutajar

Dave

When you finish with the overhaul/rebuild you are going to have a real mean machine.

Vince


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the interest Vince!

That would be the goal.....

The Aux drive is going to be a steel plate base and rubber feet and made up of pipe and pipe fittings. I'll need to make an appropriate drive and idler pulleys, but I have the motor already.
The bond a band belting should be stretchy enough to not need to put a tensioner on it.

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well, I started in on the CS dovetail. I checked my straight edges first and both needed tuning up .  My angle straight edge is a bit short, but not enough to be a real problem as long as I am very careful....it would appear that the center of the dovetail is high....but I need to finish tuning the straight edge up first.

I did find a suitable piece of old mold plate in the lucky box that I think will make a good base for the Auxillary drive.  I'll need to lay that out ...but it looks good. I may make this sooner than later just to get some stuff up off the floor in the shop! :big:

I also have the dovetail block for the high speed drilling/milling spindle roughed out and ready to bore for the watchmakers lathe bearings.
I'll then need to make the driving and driven pulley. I figuire 1725 to 4500 is plenty of range for this spindle.

I'm going to bore it on the Logan purposely high, and then machine/scrape the spindle down to the HS spindle height on the SB later.

Dave


----------



## Mosey

Are you laboring under the grave misconception that you can do this without showing us the pictures??? Get serious, man!


----------



## steamer

Don't get ya knickers in a twist!.... ;D 


Sometime tonight I"ll snap a couple of shots....Trying to shoot mark ups ain't easy with a droid......but I'll try.

Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Maybe you need a proper droid Dave?

"I don't think so, sir. I'm only a droid and not very knowledgeable about such things."

LOL!!!

Andrew


----------



## steamer

Honestly....I think my droid knows WAY more than I do... :

Dave


----------



## lazylathe

Lol!!

You do know that was a quote from Star Wars!! ;D

Andrew


----------



## steamer

No, but I still think my droid knows more than I do!  :big:

Dave


----------



## steamer

OK Mosey....here ya go.

Straight edge.....almost complete...needs a few more points ...it bowed high on the ends and I needed to take it down
It bowed because of stress relief.






Same thing with the angle straight edge with the same thickness of marking...though not as bad...it looks awful, but it's probably only a couple tenths....it's easy to push on this and make it bow flat....I just slightly grabbed it in the vice for the photo, but I wouldn't mark it that way...I would use the straight edge above with this in a free state. You'll notice the marks look like "bullseyes". That is a sign of true bearing. The part in the middle is where it's actually touching and then it fades away as you move off from the center





A rather scrungy looking piece of 1 3/8" plate 6 x 8" for the Aux drive base





And the 1/4 HP 1725 motor I'm going to use sitting on it....this came off a small punch press that I had to , by law mind you , scrap by destroying with a sledge hammer....but I saved the motor and flywheel.... ;D





Here's the block with the dovetail for the tool post mounted light duty milling/drilling spindle.





Along with the "donor" watchmakers lathe headstock gotten off the bay for about $20 




The block needs a straight through bore so that the lathe spindle and bearings can be mounted. I'll be putting a 1.25" pulley on the end to be driven by the motor above.

Dave


----------



## Mosey

Definitely OK! Will be watching as you go forwards to completion of a unique little accessory.


----------



## steamer

I was able to get the straight edge sorted out and then I scraped in the guiding side of the dovetail on the cross slide. Interestingly, the guiding side was hour glass shaped but biased towards one end.  I had to use a straight edge that was shorter than the piece, so I had to work from one side, and work my way over to the other side. but because of the hour glass shape, this wasn't so bad. I just scraped "straight down" and didn't try to steer the work in another direction.
Funny thing is the way I was scraping it , it would end up a bit hollow along the length, and I had to really concentrate on making sure I was scraping flat as the width of the dovetail is about a 1/2". In the end I had to put the handle of the scraper on my shoulder and grab the shank with both hands to "choke up" on the scraper to gain enough control to just cut the mark and nothing else.

I took some photo's but I need to get them off the camera....they're coming Mosey..... ;D

I need to scrape the gib side so I can make the gib and return the gib clamp fixture that was loaned to me.

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Heh! Dave looks like you are making some progress, but do you really want to put that 1/4HP motor on your 9 inch lathe? How about a 3/4 HP motor. I just change the motor off my vertical band saw to 3 phase and I have one laying around. PM me if you are interested.

Regards Don


----------



## steamer

Hi Don,  The main lathe spindle is 1/2 HP....which is fine.

the 1/4 hp unit is for the auxillary toolpost mounted spindle.....for drilling and light milling of parts in the headstock spindle like clock wheels and small gears, and drilling small circular hole patterns


Thanks for the offer though!

Dave


----------



## Mosey

Lookin in with admiration.





Mosey


----------



## steamer

Thanks Mosey.

Dave


----------



## Don1966

That is a great idea Dave, are you going to index the headstock as well?

Don


----------



## steamer

Hi Don,

Yes

My F1 has a great dividing head attachment that clamps onto a 35mm diameter shaft. I'll make an adapter to use on the back of the SB spindle and a torque arm.
Dave


----------



## steamer

Here's a few photo's from my last session....The saddle way surfaces for the CS are next starting with the flat ways






















It started with good bearing, but not all the way across, then ended up with a groove once it carried....


----------



## steamer

As you can see in the pictures...at first, there was low "strip" down the middle...and I finally figuired out it was ME! 

When the blade hits the relief groove it would twist slightly, and with the curve of the blade it would cut leaving a groove.

The only way to get over that was to be very careful to cut the mark up.....I have the photo's kinda mixed up , I'll straighten them out and put them in chronological order....

Dave


----------



## steamer

Did a bit more tonight scrapping the saddle CS flat ways to the CS.  Then the angle ways.

Dave


----------



## Don1966

David you have put in a lot of effort into this project. In the long run it should pay off. You lathe will almost be like new. I wish I could do that, but I am still green behind the ears still. There are a lot of mechanical things I can do, but scrapeing is not one of them. Looks like you did your homework on this one.

Don


----------



## steamer

Don1966  said:
			
		

> . Looks like you did your homework on this one.
> 
> Don



Well........ maybe.

I was right in that the bed is not worn "bad".....but the rest of it wasn't so good!
Because I did all the other work, I'm now regrinding the bed.....because now it doesn't make sense not to. I don't want to match scrape a saddle and tailstock to a "mildly" worn bed....I would prefer it to be an accurate bed!

The saddle had WAY more wear than I would have dreamed (.010 on the front shear alone) ...as did the Tailstock ( .018 low). 

In the end I'll have what I want. An accurate, reliable lathe for small work....but I suppose I could have waited for a "real" creampuff and just shucked out the cash....then again, I KNOW what's inside of this one, my scraping skills have much improved as a result, and I'll have a lathe that you can't buy today for 3X the money I've spent thus far.  And thats great! it really is!

But man it's a pile of work!

 :

Dave


----------



## steamer

Well tonight I got a few more cycles in on the guiding dovetail.  I took some photo's to show the progress, which actually went very quickly.

I marked up the CS first. To do this I took a short nap foam roller meant for epoxy application and cut a strip out of it. I then coated one edge with marking canode.






Here's how I put the medium on the master of the CS





As you can see, it's not touching by much here! 





I was glad to see that after two cycles it improved greatly!





and after 1 more cycle it looked like this






So we're almost there.....Next is the gib side for parallelism and we can get this part done!

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Dave I am glad you are showing your progress as I am learning here about scrapping. I also bought a video on scrapping to give me more insite as to how to go about doing it. The video is guiet good, a guy by the name of Micheal Morgan. I also bought a scrapper to practice with. It is very interesting, on how to make metal straight by scrapping. I would of never believed it till I watch this guy doing it and how he did it. So I will continue to follow alone on your progress. Hopefully I can pick up more info from you. By the way your progress look very good.

Don


----------



## steamer

Thanks for the kind comments and encouragement Don!

Patience and elbow grease applied liberally.....

I have the same video!  He knows his stuff!

I was getting a wierd mark up early on where it was carrying on one end but barely touching on the other side....what I figuired must be going on there was that the guided side gib must have worn warped....it came down quickly and "behaved" but it was wierd.  I even marked the right side with the left side of the CS to make sure it marked the same way....which thankfully it did , cause if it did otherwise, that would have meant the CS had a twist in it.......I just kept going knowing eventually it would come in.

Dave


Dave


----------



## Don1966

I have got some warping on my y axis on my mill. I ended up replacing it but that concerned me. I had a height problem when I fly cut. Every move I make to the next cut causes a step in the metal and I really need to retram it again, but I believe this is coming from my gib. If I can learn to scrap I my be able to correct some of this Chinese mill problem. First of all it is not that rigid and I quess I can't expect to much for the price. Same with my 7x14 microlux lathe lack of rigidity. Me being green at this does't help and I am trying to grasp all the knowledge I can about it. Hell! I am still learning how to operate a lathe an mill. 

Don


----------



## steamer

Hi Don,

Thanks for the interstest and support!

It takes a while....just keep reading and doing....the doing is the very important part!
Experience is gained by doing.
As far as scraping is concerned, the best way to get a feel for it is to do it.

Do you have a surface plate?...They are REALLY cheap right now.
Get a piece of iron , your old mill part that you replaced that is now sitting doing nothing is a perfect victim, and just start....you have nothing to loose and everything to gain...if you straighten it out, you'll probably have a part better than the one you replaced.,,,,if you don't well, it can go back to the same spot on the bench it is now :big:

Start on the flat ways of the dovetail....easy peasy...I'm telling ya if you watch the video , apply brain and liberal elbow grease your will get a result.  That result can be reviewed with a surface plate
RELAX.....that's important.  You'll cut far flatter work if you relax and be consistant....and PATIENCE its not one of those things you can rush....
I like doing it as I tune out everything else....it's a nice band pass filter in that regard....so it gets my mind off other troublesome bits......machinists yoga!.....good thing I don't have to do it for a living! :big:

I don't by any means feel I am any where near an expert on the subject....I try not to lecture on the subject beyond what I know....but If I can get something as flat as my plate...you can.

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Dave I do have a surface plate and the dye, but it will be a while before I even attempt to do anything with it.
Thanks for all the pointers, all of that sounds very interesting and I still need to grasp it all.

Don


----------



## steamer

OK got the guide side of the Saddle dovetail scraped to match the CS dovetail....marking showed well.

Couldn't resist the urge to try it out.  NO gib in place mind you...

I put some way oil on the saddle and put the cross slide on.  WOW

Like it's on glass....It sucked right in tight to the flat way and the guide side of the dovetail by capillary attraction and as slick as snot on a door knob!

I can pull the CS back and shove it forward, and it glides to a halt on its own in about 3 inches.  NICE!

Thank god all that work was worth it! :big:

Still have to do the gib side....but we're just about there.

Dave


----------



## TroyO

Steamer makes a point about surface plates being cheap.... at the moment, Enco is having a nice sale on several.

Example:
Sale price on a 12x18 surface plate is $45.95
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=949402&PMAKA=640-0120

BUT WAIT there's more.... LOL, you can also use the MRTN code if your total is over $99 to knock off 10% (I never seem to have trouble with that restriction.... I can always find *something* else I want, LOL)

$41.36

Better yet? Code MRFS gets it shipped FREE. That's like $45 on that plate if you were to just buy it.

A surface plate that usually costs $130 shipped for $42.

Heck, I'm considering getting one just to bolt my mill to as a riser block, LOL. Dead flat... and really what could I throw at it that would flex or vibrate 3" thick granite?


----------



## Don1966

Hey Dave make sure we get some photos of your progress. I am still here watching. Good to see that all the work you have done so far has made steps to completion and not a step backwards. Great work Dave, and I bet you are learning as you go also.

Don


----------



## steamer

Don1966  said:
			
		

> , and I bet you are learning as you go also.
> 
> Don



Thanks Don!  Oh you can bet it's been a learning experience! 

It'll get done....it's just taking a bit longer than planned!  Story of my life I think :big:

I'll see if I can get a clip of the cross slide phenomena...

Dave



Dave


----------



## steamer

OK best I can do with this droid...freakin jawa's! ;D





You'll hopefully notice the deceleration.....like a dashpot.

I'm shoving it pretty hard.

smooth as silk....and no gib strip,,,,and it never leaves the guiding dovetail,,,,it's sucked right in tight against by capillary action


----------



## TroyO

LOL, it looks like it's on a spring or something.... that is just amazing!

Thanks again for the information and inspiration with this thread. It's both taught me a lot and removed some of the intimidation of the "Dark art" of scraping. I've got some projects coming up where I will post my learning curve, if I can get the materials and the free time together all at the same time. (New baby in 3 months... so that could be challenging.... LOL.)

Anyway..... just wanted to applaud once more your work and taking the time to document and share with us!


----------



## arnoldb

:bow: Now THAT is a smooth cross slide Dave. Looks like it was well worth all that scraping ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## steamer

Hey TroyO

At least scraping is quiet!....2-3 hours of Classical guitar and twin newborns doesn't fly I can assure you!

Thanks for the kind words Arnold! :bow:

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Wow!! Dave that has really come together. It looks great, now as long as the rest goes good you will be set. You will be able to be proud of that lathe,because you have put you heart into Dave and your back. I envy your efforts and thanks again for sharing.

Don


----------



## lazylathe

Go Dave!!!!! :bow:

Smooth as.... you know what!!! :big:

Let me know when you are done and i will send you my address for shipping!!! ;D

Andrew


----------



## rake60

Dave,

It looks really good right up the the point were it _grinds_ to a stop at the end.

I think you need a little more practice at scraping.
I'm willing to let you come and practice on my machines! 

*Very nice work there!* Thm:

Rick


----------



## steamer

Thanks Rick!

Dave


----------



## steamer

Gib and gib screws this weekend, along with compound clamp screws

Edkolt on PM graciously loaned me the "communal" SB9 gib clamps ,,,,and I need to get them back!

If I have time I'll finish up the saddle gib side dovetail and scrape in the gib strip.

The next item to scrape is the top of the Tailstock Base....to make it flat and have good bearing with the bottom of the Tailstock.  Alignment with the HS will come later.

Bend grinding is coming........I am sure that will be a case of "it hurts so good......" $$$$$ :

Dave


----------



## Deanofid

Every time I come back to this thread I get more of an education. Thanks Dave!
Oh, if it's not being too nosey, it'd be interesting to know what they get for grinding the bed.
If you think it's appropriate to tell!

Dean


----------



## steamer

Well.....I'll say its enough to make one "pause"....I can't be a wus and turn back now! ;D

I got the gib strip machined tonight. I need to punch the threaded gib screw holes which may seem easy enough....but I'm tired not feeling particularly well, and I DON"T want to screw this up....so tomorrow night it is.

Then scrape in the gib strip for flatness and parallelism...and we're golden!

TS base next

Dave


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## Don1966

Hi Dave glad to see you back at it again. If I am reading this right the bed is getting ready to get a work over. How long will that take? I guess christmas is coming early this year. After you get through with it, you'll look back and say that was't so bad. When it comes to tools I never procrastinate over how much I spend I just do it, if I have the funds. But different circumstances for different people I know.

Don


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## steamer

As discretionary funds allow........

It will get done


Dave


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## steamer

I could use this plate for a seperate project....so I got it







Perfect match for the milling slide and face plate on the SB.

Dave


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## steamer

OK I got the CS table gib screws holes tapped, and the gib strip scraped.
I need to get the adjusting screws and lock nuts, but it's done!...finally!

I got a rather unique dial indicator stand that mounts to the cross T slots and I would go as far as say it's quick change and requires no tools to mount or remove.

I needed to remove the base T nut which was rivetted on and modify the height slightly. I then re-rivetted it back on. It needs some "furniture", but it's all there and is very stought.....just another bit.  Pictures to come


Dave


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## steamer

Here's the indicator stand I was speaking about






The knob and the staked T nut. It slides on from the side, and a twist of the knob and it's locked.










here's a shot of the borrowed fixture that I used to hold and machine the gib strip.





Worked a treat....the table moved a bit once I drilled the gib screws which forced me to do some scraping to bring it back...not a lot, but I got some "hard" spots right where the screws pierced the casting.  NOTE do all the machining first next time.... :

Dave


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## Don1966

Good acquisition Dave and making more progress. I am still here following you and you are a step closer to completion. I am looking forward to more progress as the journey continues. I am still looking for a lathe and still can not make up my mind what to buy. All the new lathes I look at look cheap and not very rigid. Your way seem to be the best way because you will know what you have when complete. Decisions, decisions.

Don


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## steamer

Thanks Don.....just don't take this endevor lightly....it's a lot of work! ;D

Dave


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## steamer

steamer  said:
			
		

> I could use this plate for a seperate project....so I got it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect match for the milling slide and face plate on the SB.
> 
> Dave




OK.....got this plate....supposed to be "precision ground"...... :
Good thing I'm skeptical!

I deburred the edges that got bashed in transit...and checked it on the plate....the pictures tells the story!





....wow!....Ok...how bad can it be....so I started in with a sharp carbide scraper blade and had at it....about 15 cycles later





About another 15-20 cycles after that!....and I got to here!





Which I called good!.......wow....glad it was precision ground!....it was out about .005"

Check another one off the list






It checked good on squareness and base flatness.....which considering how much I was wailing on it is just luck!

Dave


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## Don1966

Dave have you read the new issue of Home Shop machinest yet. The scraping part eight by Michael Ward is great. This one really focuses on the lathe ways. I loved the articles he goes in depth with what he is trying to achieve.

Don


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## steamer

Yes I have! and he's starting the prep for the X2 Minimill rescrape now.  He's making the reference gages in the latest issue.

Dave


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## TroyO

Were those X2 castings he had? For some reason it liiked like something different... a micro mill maybe?

Anyway... still good stuff. I'm glad I finally have enough basics gathered to get started learning it.  I feel like it's a skill that will enable some projects I thought were out of reach, which is awesome!


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## steamer

I contacted the seller of the angle plate and voiced my dismay and suggested he should pay attention to the quality of these plates.....he offered to let me keep this one and send me another that he checked personally.

Sure! said I

I'll check it out when I get it....and let you know.

Dave


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## Don1966

This is the Guality of parts you buy these days, don't that just makes you mad. Money only buys you junk and it is only getting worst. I had replace all my appliances to update them because they were getting old. Well that was a bad idea. I have replaced three ice makers and a fan motor in my icebox. The dryer was 3 yrs old and the bearings went out, they wanted $250 to repair it plus $85 service fee. So I replaced it. My stove was a Electralux my wife bought we had some much trouble with it Lowes gave us a check to replace it. The dishwasher has had the ccontrol board changed in it. So now I wondering what next. I still have my old icebox in the garage that my wife uses to keep soft drinks in for the grand kids and have had no trouble with it and I bought it in 1972.

Don


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## steamer

That's why I'm doing this whole thing....I want better quality.

I kinda looked at that plate as a "casting set"....I half expected what I got....though I was hopeful! :big:
Let's see....check my thread on my washing machine adventure recently!.....OMG!
What a POC!



Dave


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## steamer

The new plate showed up. I haven't checked it yet, but it was MUCH better packaged this time.

It looks like it had a fresh grind job done on it..... 8)

I guess we'll find out!


Dave


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## steamer

I will be continuing this thread elsewhere

Dave

Steamer    All rights researved


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## DoctorX

Hello all,

Can someone please tell me if the pictures that accompanied this thread have been moved elsewhere or were they deleted?

Thanks,

Dr. X


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## V 45

steamer said:


> I will be continuing this thread elsewhere
> 
> Dave
> 
> Steamer All rights researved


 

Where is everyone going ??? I didn't keep up with the whole buyout thing !!
Thanx 
 V 45


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## sunworksco

Hi,
Great restoration on your SB!
I have a question about my SB 8" Junior lathe.
The spindle needs to be turned down a bit because of scoring wear and these lathes never have bearings, other than a hardened spindle and cast iron bearing caps.
I need to line bore the spindle frame bearing caps and install bronze bearings.
With your knowledge of your SB, I thought you could give me some information.
Thank you,
Giovanni


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## Todd...

you were told over on PM that it wasnt really neccasary, you should just take down the high spots and run it. if oyu dont like how it operates then worry about all of that.  it wont be an quick and easy job to bore out the headstock oversize press in a bushing and re bore that to proper spec of what you have turned the spindle to.  if that doesnt sound like a lot then you also have to remember that you are trying to get extremely tight tolerances without moving the spindle up down or side to side of the OEM spindle axis.  if you do get it out of the oem axis then the tailstock will need to be machined/  scraped to suite the offset as well as the saddle.

like others have said and i will say just run it, i have seen much worse then what urs looked like and the oewners have and still are running them happily to this day


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## martik777

51 page thread and all the pictures deleted -What a waste!


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## ///

Agreed. It's one of the reasons I rarely come to HMEM anymore. I drop in from time to time to see what's happening but.....
It seems many of the really good informative threads are now missing their images.


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## dalem9

Why are we lossing the pictures . Dale


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## martik777

I don't think it is HMEM's fault as the pictures were in photobucket.  

Apparently he gave up and had it reground -

Check: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/regrinding-ways-saddle-repair-257431/   He is under mcandrew1894


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## dman

sunworksco said:


> Hi,
> Great restoration on your SB!
> I have a question about my SB 8" Junior lathe.
> The spindle needs to be turned down a bit because of scoring wear and these lathes never have bearings, other than a hardened spindle and cast iron bearing caps.
> I need to line bore the spindle frame bearing caps and install bronze bearings.
> With your knowledge of your SB, I thought you could give me some information.
> Thank you,
> Giovanni



giovanni, in the engine rebuilding world we recondition the block by grinding a small amount off the cap on the mating surface then normally a hone is all that's needed to bring things back into spec. the hole can be a little egg/football shaped, it is beneficial on a full sized ic engine but that doesn't apply to your lathe. to avoid an egg shaped hole you can take a decent amount off the cap then bore then hone. you can also scrape it to fit instead of honing in which case you can create clearance on the top and bottom as well as the parting line so you have 4 points of contact and you can fine tune the clearance in each direction. muller nick has good videos on scraping on youtube, same screen name.


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