# Some pics of my workshop



## HennieL

Hello everyone,

I'm a new member, and after the obligatory first post in the Introduction forum, I might as well start my first real post by introducing myself and my workshop...

I'm 64 years old, and live in South Africa. I'm a soon to be retired civil engineer specializing in road construction, and have been making custom knives as a hobby for many years. I like to work with metal and wood, and just love the outdoors and hunting. Anyway, as I said in the Introduction, I've been participating in the "_He-who-dies-with-the-most-tools-Wins_" competition for many years now, but still needs a LOT more tools before I can really be competitive 

Unfortunately for me, I've had to scale down on the knife making due to bad arthritis in my hands that has now progressed to the stage where I cannot comfortably (or safely...) hold onto the knife blades being ground, prompting me to look at starting with model engine building instead (where the machines can do the clamping, rather than my hands )

So, as promised, here's some photos of my current knife-making workshop that will probably be used "as-is" for the model engine making, and then a few of my "half-a-garage" workshop where I mainly play around with all my non-knife-making tools...

First the knife workshop (roughly 3.0m x 3.5m in size):

Some hand tools, storage shelf and cupboards, and a sturdy wooden work bench. The small oven in the corner has been modified to temper the hardened knife blades, and can also accommodate other smallish sized objects. It is also great for rapid curing epoxies. To the right of the oven are two granite blocks and a surface gauge, and my Tormek wet-wheel grinder






To the left of the above photo is my small mill-drill, used mostly for drilling, but also for general light-duty milling, and a 150mm bench vise. Some knife blanks still to be completed are hanging from an over-head shelf





And here's the most important knife making power tool in this shop - my 2m belt and disk sander. In the background of this last photo you can see my supply of knife-making tool- and martensitic stainless steels, that regularly also get used for other purposes where hardened thin plates of steel are required. Also, note the small dustbin that is usually filled with water directly below the grinder, used to keep the steel being processed cool by regular dipping - the spray bottle of water also helps...





And now the "big" workshop - half a double garage, approximately 3.0m x 6.0m in size:

Visible in this photo is my steel workbench, movable bench grinder, pedestal drill, compressor, (woodworking) table saw with router attached to the table extension, a thicknesser hidden on the far right below the bench, and just a small portion of my metal band saw sticking out on the left - oh, and a very hard-working shop vac that's always underfoot.





My lathe, and car in the background that is regularly covered in chips and/or oil splashes 





And lastly my TIG welder and toolbox combination, with an old wooden work bench that I made from railway sleepers some 35 years ago visible in the background, and still going strong...





Well, that's about it, apart from two large steel cupboards where I store most of my power tools and "consumables", and a wood-turning lathe that went into hiding because it was dirty...

Having seen my current set-up, I really would appreciate any feedback, advice and constructive criticism regarding it's suitability as a model engine workshop

Hennie


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## tornitore45

Too clean and ordered to be a working shop


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## HennieL

Thanks Mauro (I do take it this was meant as a compliment  )

Actually, the shop can get very dirty at times, but I try to keep it ordered and reasonably clean, just to make it easier to find things. There must be a whole bunch of Gremlins living in my shop, and they move and hide my tools if I don't put them back in their allocated places as soon as I'm done using them - it cannot be that I'm just getting forgetful


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## tornitore45

Of course a compliment and a bit of envy.
My shop evolved from a woodworking hobby to include a fairly well equipped metalworking. As tools accumulated I rearranged, moved, added shelves and boxes. It is a constant evolution to pack ever more stuff.
While is functional and I can reach any tool without struggle it looks like one of those century old hardware store where next to new stuff there are a few bins of cut nails, coal stove accessories and buggy whips, all dusty, hanging from the rafters.


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## awake

Hennie, as far as power tools I'd say you have everything you need to start on model engines. Of course there are always more tools that can make the task easier - I'll be happy to endorse your list of must-have add-ons if you need to persuade a reluctant spouse ... 

Not shown in the pictures, but presumably tucked away - calipers, micrometers, dial indicators, etc? You definitely need a selection of measuring tools.


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## HennieL

Thanks for the reply Andy



> Not shown in the pictures, but presumably tucked away - calipers, micrometers, dial indicators, etc? You definitely need a selection of measuring tools.



Agreed.

I do have four conventional micrometres (Starrets & Mitutoyos) measuring in ranges from 0-25mm, 25-50mm, 50-100mm and 100-150mm, all to a resolution of 0.01mm, and recently bought an "Italian made" digital 0-25mm x 0.001mm micrometre by mail order that turned out to be a crappy piece of plastic, obviously made in China and not Italy, but that actually measures quite well (it agrees to two decimals with my Starret) - just don't expect it to last very long....

Some time ago I made a mount that fits in my QT toolpost that simultaneously holds both a vertical and horizontal dial gauge, and also have a separate mag base and digital gauge, all measuring to 0.01mm, as well as assorted check squares, two sets of callipers (one Vernier and one digital), and various steel rulers, dividers and protractors - I will post a pic of my "metrology drawer" later today.

What I do need is a better milling machine, and more tooling such as reamers, fly cutters, carbide boring bars (only have short-reach HSS)extra-long and stub drills, and whatever I find out that I need for model engines... but money is tight, and the Minister of Finance is difficult... so your endorsement will be called for in the near future...

Regards,
Hennie


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## tornitore45

Hennie, I do not see anything wrong with your milling machine. Perhaps the observation you have a huge vice that robs you much of the Z axis and a chuck.  Since I bought my ER collets I never use the drill chuck, that gives me another 2 1/2 inch of Z clearance.  On the other hand your late is really nice.


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## BaronJ

Hi Hennie,

My milling machine is quite similar to yours, a Chinese clone of an Optimum BL20 the one with the extra long bed.

I've made a number of modifications to mine and its turned out a lot of work. Mine has an MT3 spindle and a 1Hp motor.


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## awake

I agree with Baron and Mauro - your mill will, at the very least, get you started, and may be all you ever need, unless you are planning on making full-sized models. (Are they still models if they are full-sized? Hmm ...) And you definitely have the measuring tools you need, at least to start with. But I also agree with Mauro that you might consider changing out the vise on your mill for something lower-profile and more rigid. At the very least, consider taking it off the swivel base, except when you really need the swivel.

I'm also not sure that you need to acquire any of the tooling that you mention as a pre-requisite; I'd say, start on a model and then buy the tooling as you discover what you need. FWIW, I hardly ever use anything but HSS tooling, I have almost no reamers, just a few random ones that came in a box of junk bought at an auction - and I can't recall if there has ever been one of the size I actually needed for a project. My drills are mostly import junk, but with careful resharpening have proven surprisingly effective and accurate. My fly cutters are all shop-made. I do have a 50mm indexable carbide face mill that has been quite useful - I bought an inexpensive import version.

Let me hasten to say that I would be more than happy to support and endorse the acquisition of any or all of these. Of the tooling listed above, the one I would most like to have, personally, is a set of reamers ... but there are so many potential sizes that could be needed (including fractionally larger or smaller than nominal) that I suspect I will more likely wind up buying individual reamers as needed. So far, though, I've gotten by without needing a reamer.

What I _have_ bought in the last 6 months, in terms of major expenditures on tooling - since I began the model IC engine hobby - is a couple of sets of gear cutters (M1 and M.8, though I'm still waiting on the latter) plus the matching arbors, and a 6" rotary table - all import, so not exorbitant, but certainly a rather significant expenditure for me. I did get the RT as a Christmas present.  Relatively minor purchases have included some small-size drill bits, including 1mm carbide, and some small milling bits (2mm) - again, all import, not very expensive, but reasonable quality. Not tooling, exactly, but I've also purchased lapping compound,

I'm probably leaving something out, but that gives you an idea of where at least one newbie to the hobby has focused his purchases.

Now: pick a project and start on it, and the folks here will coach you through it. Welcome to the obsession hobby!


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## tornitore45

Vises.
I use what is known as a grinding vise 3" jaws. Like this: https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3767&category=

Is ground flat and square on all surfaces. Is not heavy, I do not give it a second thought about moving for alternate methods. I have a 5" swivel base but never felt the need to use through the construction of six engines.

Reamers
I bought a set up to 1/2 inch in 1/16 increments, waste of money.
When do you need to ream?  When you want a shaft to run in the hole.
Then you need a "over" reamer, one that is 0.001" oversized.  That is what ended up buying, one at the time as needed.
Above 3/8" one might just as easily bore.
In a hurry one can make "D" bits, a remarkably useful and effective tool.

Also with a mill and a lathe one can make just about any tool. The trick is to know when you cam make one for less than it cost to buy. Sometime the metal alone cost more that buy the tool, but simple tools, holders and fixture can be made faster and cheaper than buy.

I consider making a tool a welcome diversion from working on a long complicated project.


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## HennieL

Thanks for all the good advice and feedback, everyone.

My mill (an Optimum BF20) frustrates me in that I can only make very shallow (0.1 - 0.2mm) cuts. More than this, and it starts to chatter. Having said that, I've been using it for some years now (probably about 7-8, but cannot remember...) and have done some quite heavy work on it, but it's like eating an elephant - one small bite at a time...



> Perhaps the observation you have a huge vice that robs you much of the Z axis and a chuck.  Since I bought my ER collets I never use the drill chuck, that gives me another 2 1/2 inch of Z clearance



Interestingly enough, that huge chuck can grip a 1.0mm drill. Having worked on mainly knives, I've never been bothered with Z-axes space, but I take your point, and will seriously consider removing the swivel base (thanks for the tip, Andy). I do have a collet chuck of sorts that I use to hold the end mill cutters- it's visible in a wooden "shelf" on the wall to the right of the mill in the second photo that I posted. It only has four collets (6mm, 10mm, 12mm and 16mm), and is not of the "ER" type - that's been on my wish list for some time now...



> What I _have_ bought in the last 6 months, in terms of major expenditures on tooling - since I began the model IC engine hobby - is a couple of sets of gear cutters (M1 and M.8, though I'm still waiting on the latter) plus the matching arbors, and a 6" rotary table



Gear cutting - now that's opening a whole new can of worms   I've been wanting to learn how to do this for many years, but the cost of a rotary table has in the past put a damper on that - but it's really something to seriously consider in the near future (perhaps a "from Dad to Dad" Christmas present )

I think that the long drills and reamers are probably quite necessary for me (but I agree, probably not for making model engines...) - I have made quite a few tools & tool holders for the lathe, and made axles and shafts for various machines, and quite a few projects required deep-hole drilling/boring. The problem (as I see it) is that the hole sizes are usually long in comparison to their diameters, and I think that it will be much easier to drill all the way through (say 120mm - 150mm deep) with say 5mm, 8mm and 10mm or 12mm "long" drills before doing the final finishing with either a boring bar or a reamer - and HSS boring bars also have their 4x diameter reach limitation, so it's either reaming or buying carbide boring bars... As an example, here's a 12mm boring bar holder that I made, mounted in my lathe quick-change tool holder








> In a hurry one can make "D" bits, a remarkably useful and effective tool



Mauro, I've heard about those, but have never tried making/using one - I do have some very good powder metallurgy steels that I used for high-end knives (e.g. Bohler M390) that would probably come close to HSS performance... guess that's one more thing to look into. Fortunately, I do have an electric furnace, and the knowledge & experience to heat treat high-end steels, and I do make bespoke wood turning "long & strong" chisels using M2 and M42 high speed steels such as this one








> I consider making a tool a welcome diversion from working on a long complicated project.



Agreed

Again, thanks for everyone's input - keep it going 

Hennie


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## BaronJ

Hello Hennie,

I've made many tools to do various jobs,




This is a fly cutter that I made.  It is very much my goto tool when I want to surface something.  I've also made fly cutters for doing dovetails.







Like this one I made for a grinding jig.




Boring bars.  This one is made from a printer shaft with a broken slocom ground into a cutter and held in placewith a screw.  Note that It isn't in a holder.  Simply clamped in the tool slot.

I've also made a table traverse using a car window wiper motor and a few gears.




This is it mounted on the left end of the table.  It has a tumbler gear that give me forward, stop and reverse.  The red arrows indicating table direction. 

These are only a few things that make the mill a much used machine.


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## HennieL

Thanks Baron,

That's very interesting and innovative.



> Boring bars.  This one is made from a printer shaft with a broken slocom ground into a cutter and held in placewith a screw.  Note that It isn't in a holder.  Simply clamped in the tool slot.



That's a very long overhang - don't you get chatter or tapering? Do you only use it on brass/bronze, or can it also cut in (say) bright steel with the same performance?

I'm really impressed with those dove tails, and with your winder motor drive - gives me some ideas for future projects 



> My milling machine is quite similar to yours, a Chinese clone of an Optimum BL20 the one with the extra long bed.  I've made a number of modifications to mine and its turned out a lot of work. Mine has an MT3 spindle and a 1Hp motor.



That might be a major reason why our experiences differ - mine only has a MT2 spindle, and even though it has a 850W input power (thus also about 1HP), I doubt if it has more than about 0.5HP on the spindle. No matter, though - unless I can source a cheap, good condition Deckel FP1 or FP2, I'm stuck with mine... It is a very good and accurate drill, though, and that was my main reason for buying it in the first place, so I'm not really complaining.

Regards
Hennie


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## HennieL

Double post deleted - don't know how that happened...

Apologies


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## BaronJ

HennieL said:


> Double post deleted - don't know how that happened...
> 
> Apologies



Yes that happens sometimes !


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## BaronJ

Hi Hennie,



> That's a very long overhang - don't you get chatter or tapering? Do you only use it on brass/bronze, or can it also cut in (say) bright steel with the same performance?



Yes sometimes, but there are ways round that.  Changing speed or depth of cut helps, but sometimes I wind a length of plumbers lead solder wire around the shaft.  That can stop chatter as well.  One other reason I find for chatter is when the tool gets blunt or a buildup on the cutting edge.  Aluminum is a swine for doing that particularly if the hole is deep and the WD40 or diesel fuel hasn't made it to the cutting tip.

With regard to the mill.  Mine is a Chinese clone of the Optimum BF20.  It has a longer table and can be supplied with MT2, MT3 or R8 tapers in the spindle.  They all fit in the quill.

Also my machine has steel gears, but that's another story.


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## awake

Like Baron, I have often done boring using HSS tooling with more than 4x diameter in depth. (I had never actually heard that as a limitation with regard to boring - only for drilling, but I violate that one regularly as well.)

FWIW, my first mill (actually mill-drill) was an MT2 spindle. I don't recall what the horsepower was, but would be surprised if it was truly as much as 1 hp - probably more like 1/2. And it was a round column, which means having to re-locate everything if I had to move the head. But I did a lot of accurate work on it.

That said, we need to explore what is going on with the .1-.2mm cuts. That is really tiny, and would indeed be a pain to nibble away at something. My old mill-drill could not take a heavy cut, but certainly heavier than that - depending on what exactly we are talking about. End-cutting? With what size of end mill? (With a .5" end mill, I think I recall .025" being about the max DOC, so around .7mm). Side cutting? How wide a surface? And what type of end mill? If you don't already have any, invest in some "rougher" end mills. They allow much greater DOC when side-milling.

By the way, that's a beautiful turning chisel. As a knife maker, you are ahead of the game for making your own tooling. I've made many a tool, including not just fly cutters but dovetail cutters and slot cutters (like woodruff key cutters) and so on. Also some custom profile router cutters for a woodworking friend.


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## Richard Hed

HennieL said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm a new member, and after the obligatory first post in the Introduction forum, I might as well start my first real post by introducing myself and my workshop...
> 
> I'm 64 years old, and live in South Africa. I'm a soon to be retired civil engineer specializing in road construction, and have been making custom knives as a hobby for many years. I like to work with metal and wood, and just love the outdoors and hunting. Anyway, as I said in the Introduction, I've been participating in the "_He-who-dies-with-the-most-tools-Wins_" competition for many years now, but still needs a LOT more tools before I can really be competitive
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I've had to scale down on the knife making due to bad arthritis in my hands that has now progressed to the stage where I cannot comfortably (or safely...) hold onto the knife blades being ground, prompting me to look at starting with model engine building instead (where the machines can do the clamping, rather than my hands )
> 
> So, as promised, here's some photos of my current knife-making workshop that will probably be used "as-is" for the model engine making, and then a few of my "half-a-garage" workshop where I mainly play around with all my non-knife-making tools...
> 
> First the knife workshop (roughly 3.0m x 3.5m in size):
> 
> Some hand tools, storage shelf and cupboards, and a sturdy wooden work bench. The small oven in the corner has been modified to temper the hardened knife blades, and can also accommodate other smallish sized objects. It is also great for rapid curing epoxies. To the right of the oven are two granite blocks and a surface gauge, and my Tormek wet-wheel grinder
> View attachment 116095
> 
> 
> To the left of the above photo is my small mill-drill, used mostly for drilling, but also for general light-duty milling, and a 150mm bench vise. Some knife blanks still to be completed are hanging from an over-head shelf
> View attachment 116096
> 
> 
> And here's the most important knife making power tool in this shop - my 2m belt and disk sander. In the background of this last photo you can see my supply of knife-making tool- and martensitic stainless steels, that regularly also get used for other purposes where hardened thin plates of steel are required. Also, note the small dustbin that is usually filled with water directly below the grinder, used to keep the steel being processed cool by regular dipping - the spray bottle of water also helps...
> View attachment 116097
> 
> 
> And now the "big" workshop - half a double garage, approximately 3.0m x 6.0m in size:
> 
> Visible in this photo is my steel workbench, movable bench grinder, pedestal drill, compressor, (woodworking) table saw with router attached to the table extension, a thicknesser hidden on the far right below the bench, and just a small portion of my metal band saw sticking out on the left - oh, and a very hard-working shop vac that's always underfoot.
> View attachment 116101
> 
> 
> My lathe, and car in the background that is regularly covered in chips and/or oil splashes
> View attachment 116102
> 
> 
> And lastly my TIG welder and toolbox combination, with an old wooden work bench that I made from railway sleepers some 35 years ago visible in the background, and still going strong...
> View attachment 116103
> 
> 
> Well, that's about it, apart from two large steel cupboards where I store most of my power tools and "consumables", and a wood-turning lathe that went into hiding because it was dirty...
> 
> Having seen my current set-up, I really would appreciate any feedback, advice and constructive criticism regarding it's suitability as a model engine workshop
> 
> Hennie


It's fine.  You should see MY shop--recently partly cleaned and rearranged it--now, I can almost walk in it.  Will be rearranging more, cleaning more and adding more moveable drawers.  I am looking into a Chinese lathe, am wondering if anyone has any experience with medium sized ones (under 4000$).  I need more space for it.  As I am retard (Borat's "retired"), I don't have much moolah and so make as many of my tools as I can.  My biggest prob is that I need to make tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the parts I am making (not a joke).  believe it or don't, I just learned my first silver soldering to make internal threads--I was surprised at how easy and effective it was.  I have a crappy little Enco lathe (I was used to using REAL machines at work as a machinist), which doesn't even cut left hand threads, is extremely unridged and so on gripe gripe gripe.  I have really had to completely re-learn machining to accomodate such a tiny lathe.  What I am doing now is making an ER-25 chuck holder for easier holding tiny parts.  Since the Enco has a 1-1/2" -8tpi, I have to do those threads internally.  With the horribly flexing tool post and the speed of rotation of the chuck, it is nearly impossible.  So I have decided to put a crank (actually a steering wheel)  on the back side of the lathe head and turn the threads manually.  

So for some advice for those who don't know, when yhou get a lathe, make sure there is at least one setting for VERY slow turning, under 50rpms.  Your little lathe looks very nice.  What brand is it?  I can't believe the number of manufacturors of lathes in China--it's incredible.  But who to trust?


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## HennieL

> By the way, that's a beautiful turning chisel. As a knife maker, you are ahead of the game for making your own tooling.



Thanks Andy. The flute in the chisel was cut in that M42 "super" steel using a ball mill cutter on my milling machine - took me a whole day to mill that slot... It was worth it, though, as the chisel was hardened and them tempered back to 66 Rockwell C (tempering at 510°C) hardest chisel I have ever used, and it just keeps on staying sharp... The handle was turned from African Ironwood, and should outlast the steel 



> ... we need to explore what is going on with the .1-.2mm cuts. That is really tiny, and would indeed be a pain to nibble away at something



I suspect it's a combination of loose tolerance in the ways, resulting in small sideways movements of the two slides - I've tightened the gibs to the extent that the tables have some resistance to longitudinal movement, but I can still detect vibration and some sideways "give" in places. I suppose that I will have to strip the machine and look for the cause in the near future, especially if I am now going to be doing more precision milling.



> End-cutting? With what size of end mill?...Side cutting? How wide a surface? And what type of end mill?



Yes, I mainly use four-flute end mills for end milling and facing (ranging from 3mm to 16mm diameter), and some two-flute end mills for slotting and plunging. I do have one 10mm HSS-Co roughing end mill, and it can cut slightly deeper (0.3mm - 0.4mm). I don't have any fly cutters of face mills.



> sometimes I wind a length of plumbers lead solder wire around the shaft.  That can stop chatter as well.



Thanks for this tip, Baron - I will certainly put it to the test


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## BaronJ

HennieL said:


> Thanks Andy. The flute in the chisel was cut in that M42 "super" steel using a ball mill cutter on my milling machine - took me a whole day to mill that slot... It was worth it, though, as the chisel was hardened and them tempered back to 66 Rockwell C (tempering at 510°C) hardest chisel I have ever used, and it just keeps on staying sharp... The handle was turned from African Ironwood, and should outlast the steel
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect it's a combination of loose tolerance in the ways, resulting in small sideways movements of the two slides - I've tightened the gibs to the extent that the tables have some resistance to longitudinal movement, but I can still detect vibration and some sideways "give" in places. I suppose that I will have to strip the machine and look for the cause in the near future, especially if I am now going to be doing more precision milling.



You should always lock which ever slide you are not using including the quill.

For maximum accuracy I keep the quill wound up and use the head to get within a few mm of the work, then lock it so that it doesn't move.  I then use the fine quill feed knob in conjunction with the depth gauge to put on the amount of cut that I need.

You have seen a picture of my primary fly cutter.  I can take a 20 thou cut in steel (0.5 mm) at around 450 rpm and about two to two and a half inches a minute in EN1. Double that in brass or aluminum.  The fly cutter cuts 2.5" diameter and is 20 mm thick on a 20 mm shaft.




> Yes, I mainly use four-flute end mills for end milling and facing (ranging from 3mm to 16mm diameter), and some two-flute end mills for slotting and plunging. I do have one 10mm HSS-Co roughing end mill, and it can cut slightly deeper (0.3mm - 0.4mm). I don't have any fly cutters of face mills.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this tip, Baron - I will certainly put it to the test



You're welcome.


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## HennieL

> Your little lathe looks very nice.  What brand is it?  I can't believe the number of manufacturors of lathes in China--it's incredible.  But who to trust?



Hi Richard,

It's manufactured by a Chinese company called Yangzhou Super Machine Tool Company Ltd. and is their Model C0632A x 1000. I believe that they supply the same model to the States as the Grizzly model G0776 - In fact, I downloaded the Grizzly manual, and refer to that, rather than to the non-understandable Chinglish manual that came with my lathe.

I have been using this lathe since April 2018, and so far it has worked quite well. TIR is less than 0.02mm over 300mm (about 0.0008" per foot in the archaic American imperial units  ), but it is not bolted down, and could be adjusted better if I spent some time on it... The finish was not too great "as delivered", with some casting sand still apparent in places, but a good cleaning removed all of this (I hope...). I  drained and changed the oil in the three gearboxes (spindle, change gears and carriage) directly after receiving the lathe with good quality Shell Oil lubricants, and will change it again during the next month or so (oil already bought for this...) - that should tell me if there was any unusual wear in the machine.

One thing that I'm not too happy about (but is probably par for the course if one buys a Chinese lathe), is that I discovered last weekend that the tail-stock casting has a small crack right where the crank wheel abuts onto the casting (hidden from sight, and only discovered when I stripped the tail-stock for the first time to properly service & lubricate it). This does not affect the performance of the lathe, but it does confirm yet again that their quality is still not up to scratch, and that the only thing made in China that has lasted much longer than expected is their $%^&* Corona virus 

Regards

Hennie


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## Richard Hed

HennieL said:


> Thanks for all the good advice and feedback, everyone.
> 
> My mill (an Optimum BF20) frustrates me in that I can only make very shallow (0.1 - 0.2mm) cuts. More than this, and it starts to chatter. Having said that, I've been using it for some years now (probably about 7-8, but cannot remember...) and have done some quite heavy work on it, but it's like eating an elephant - one small bite at a time...
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly enough, that huge chuck can grip a 1.0mm drill. Having worked on mainly knives, I've never been bothered with Z-axes space, but I take your point, and will seriously consider removing the swivel base (thanks for the tip, Andy). I do have a collet chuck of sorts that I use to hold the end mill cutters- it's visible in a wooden "shelf" on the wall to the right of the mill in the second photo that I posted. It only has four collets (6mm, 10mm, 12mm and 16mm), and is not of the "ER" type - that's been on my wish list for some time now...
> 
> 
> 
> Gear cutting - now that's opening a whole new can of worms   I've been wanting to learn how to do this for many years, but the cost of a rotary table has in the past put a damper on that - but it's really something to seriously consider in the near future (perhaps a "from Dad to Dad" Christmas present )
> 
> I think that the long drills and reamers are probably quite necessary for me (but I agree, probably not for making model engines...) - I have made quite a few tools & tool holders for the lathe, and made axles and shafts for various machines, and quite a few projects required deep-hole drilling/boring. The problem (as I see it) is that the hole sizes are usually long in comparison to their diameters, and I think that it will be much easier to drill all the way through (say 120mm - 150mm deep) with say 5mm, 8mm and 10mm or 12mm "long" drills before doing the final finishing with either a boring bar or a reamer - and HSS boring bars also have their 4x diameter reach limitation, so it's either reaming or buying carbide boring bars... As an example, here's a 12mm boring bar holder that I made, mounted in my lathe quick-change tool holder
> 
> View attachment 116209
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mauro, I've heard about those, but have never tried making/using one - I do have some very good powder metallurgy steels that I used for high-end knives (e.g. Bohler M390) that would probably come close to HSS performance... guess that's one more thing to look into. Fortunately, I do have an electric furnace, and the knowledge & experience to heat treat high-end steels, and I do make bespoke wood turning "long & strong" chisels using M2 and M42 high speed steels such as this one
> 
> View attachment 116207
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed
> 
> Again, thanks for everyone's input - keep it going
> 
> Hennie


I recommend making your own ER chucks--just buy the ER nut on line and build your own body.  I have a 1-1/2" 8tpi Enco I am making at the present time.;  Altho' I ***** and complain about that crappy little lathe, I AM making progress.


----------



## Richard Hed

HennieL said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> It's manufactured by a Chinese company called Yangzhou Super Machine Tool Company Ltd. and is their Model C0632A x 1000. I believe that they supply the same model to the States as the Grizzly model G0776 - In fact, I downloaded the Grizzly manual, and refer to that, rather than to the non-understandable Chinglish manual that came with my lathe.
> 
> I have been using this lathe since April 2018, and so far it has worked quite well. TIR is less than 0.02mm over 300mm (about 0.0008" per foot in the archaic American imperial units  ), but it is not bolted down, and could be adjusted better if I spent some time on it... The finish was not too great "as delivered", with some casting sand still apparent in places, but a good cleaning removed all of this (I hope...). I  drained and changed the oil in the three gearboxes (spindle, change gears and carriage) directly after receiving the lathe with good quality Shell Oil lubricants, and will change it again during the next month or so (oil already bought for this...) - that should tell me if there was any unusual wear in the machine.
> 
> One thing that I'm not too happy about (but is probably par for the course if one buys a Chinese lathe), is that I discovered last weekend that the tail-stock casting has a small crack right where the crank wheel abuts onto the casting (hidden from sight, and only discovered when I stripped the tail-stock for the first time to properly service & lubricate it). This does not affect the performance of the lathe, but it does confirm yet again that their quality is still not up to scratch, and that the only thing made in China that has lasted much longer than expected is their $%^&* Corona virus
> 
> Regards
> 
> Hennie


Yeah, but the price certainly beats US or European models even with a crack.  I'm looking at the Grizz G4003G.  As Grizz backs up their products it may be worth the extra $$ over a direct from China Model.  I've been looking aqnd you can't believe the number of brands from China.  A lot of nice models but how can you guess at the quality?  Will they back up their products?  etc., etc?  They are generally about 10-20-% cheaper than Grizz.  I thimk they have products that if they were US or European, the price would be about 4X as much for maybe twice the quality--as I'm retired and will not be making $$ from any lathe, I certainly cannot buy a Monarch or Logan or any of those really nice ones.  

BTW, I've seen that model -- One of the most irritating things about the Chiniese are that they take photos of several models and post it on the page yuou are viewing, then they DON'T show a photo of the opened gears on the head, they don't show the ways clearly,l they don't show the tailstock clearly, they often don't show the chucks clearly and Worse than anything,l is many of them sell the 4 jaw, followers and other standard parts separately.  (Other than than, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?)  they usually show 3 views of the front which is quite useless.

The Chinese also display the irritating view that someone buying something from them makes them a friend.  As for me, MY friends are peeps whom I invite home for dinner and who invite me to dinner at their place.  I've had Chinese salesmen call me "buddy", amigo, "my friend" and a bundle of other crap too.  Well, the are NOT my friends -- they are at most business aquaintance.  Who would ever call a salesman a friend?


----------



## HennieL

> I  drained and changed the oil in the three gearboxes (spindle, *change gears *and carriage) directly after receiving the lathe with good quality Shell Oil lubricants



It was quite late when I posted this, and "Spot the error": The change gears are obviously on the outside of the machine, and does not have an oil sump   I meant to say the internal _*speed-change*_ gearbox... but I'm sure that everyone will forgive this "blond moment" 



> As Grizz backs up their products it may be worth the extra $$ over a direct from China Model



I fully agree - if there was a Grizzly company in South Africa I would certainly be doing business with them.



> … the price certainly beats US or European models even with a crack... many of them sell the 4 jaw, followers and other standard parts separately.



I've been fortunate in that I bought my lathe directly from the South African importer, and it was supplied with the four-jaw, a face plate, two steadies, two centres, even a drill chuck... I suspect that these items are stripped and sold separately by the local retailers. On the other hand, trying to have a latent defect repaired back in China two years after the purchase (or even directly after the purchase...) is not a practical option, so I suppose the cheaper cost does come with the additional risk of having a worthless guarantee.



> ...they DON'T show a photo of the opened gears on the head, they don't show the ways clearly,l they don't show the tailstock clearly, they often don't show the chucks clearly...



Richard, drop me a PM if you would like me to take specific photos and email them to you.


----------



## Richard Hed

HennieL said:


> It was quite late when I posted this, and "Spot the error": The change gears are obviously on the outside of the machine, and does not have an oil sump   I meant to say the internal _*speed-change*_ gearbox... but I'm sure that everyone will forgive this "blond moment"
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree - if there was a Grizzly company in South Africa I would certainly be doing business with them.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been fortunate in that I bought my lathe directly from the South African importer, and it was supplied with the four-jaw, a face plate, two steadies, two centres, even a drill chuck... I suspect that these items are stripped and sold separately by the local retailers. On the other hand, trying to have a latent defect repaired back in China two years after the purchase (or even directly after the purchase...) is not a practical option, so I suppose the cheaper cost does come with the additional risk of having a worthless guarantee.
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, drop me a PM if you would like me to take specific photos and email them to you.


No, no.  It's not necessary to see YOUR lathe parts--I'm complaining in general that the Chinese either do not know how to take proper photos OR they are unartfully dissembling with their machines trying NOT to show what they should be showing--other words, they are lying and trying to trick their potential customers.


----------



## awake

BaronJ said:


> You have seen a picture of my primary fly cutter.  I can take a 20 thou cut in steel (0.5 mm) at around 450 rpm and about two to two and a half inches a minute in EN1. Double that in brass or aluminum.  The fly cutter cuts 2.5" diameter and is 20 mm thick on a 20 mm shaft.



Baron, that is an impressive DOC with a fly cutter that large!


----------



## BaronJ

Thank you Andy,

That fly cutter and a couple of similar ones were built from scrap that I had to hand.  The shaft was an off cut of 20 mm silver steel bar (drill rod) and the disc a slice from a 3" inch diameter stainless steel bar that I cleaned up on the lathe and drilled then bored so that the shaft was a press fit into it.  I used the bench vise to press it in and then cleaned everything up in the lathe.

The hole for the tool bit was drilled to take 1/4" square HSS tool bits and secured with a 2BA hex socket grub screw.

The rationale behind the design is that the weight will have a flywheel effect and reduce deflection due to the thickness of the disc.  Also because the very slight difference in weight that removing material by drilling a hole and filling it with a tool bit and grub screw makes, it would be very well balanced, so vibration due to the rotation would be minimal.  This is born out by the lack of vibration spinning the fly cutter at the maximum speed of the mill, which is a little over 2200 rpm.

You do need to grind the HSS carefully to get the best out of it.  I use a semicircular shape with about a 3 to 5 degree clearance and about the same back rake on steel.  Aluminum and brass is far more forgiving with the angles. 

I hope that this description helps.


----------



## awake

Baron, thanks for the details, and a good observation on the "fly wheel effect" of the design. All of the fly cutters I have made are the typical slanted design, with the corresponding lack of balance. I will have to give your design a try.

I noted the semicircular shape of the tool bit - very interesting. I would have guessed that would have been too broad a nose to work well except at very fine DOC. I wonder if a similar shape would work well on my shaper ... I'll have to give that a try!


----------



## MADJACK

Very cool, nice shop.


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## HennieL

> Like Baron, I have often done boring using HSS tooling with more than 4x diameter in depth. (I had never actually heard that as a limitation with regard to boring - only for drilling, but I violate that one regularly as well.)



Andy, just for interest sake, see the following extracts from Sandvik, Mitshubishi and Dorian technical publications regarding boring bar overhang















I must admit that I too tend to push the limit with my larger boring bars, but have found that with the skinny ones (8mm and 10mm diameter) they do deflect even at 4x diameter overhang, and end up cutting tapered holes.

Regards
Hennie


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## BaronJ

Hi Hennie, Guys,

Yes I've seen that paper !  That information is for production work on automatic (CNC) machines where time is money.  Also another observation is that Sandvic have an interest in pushing their own boring bars.  These are a bar where they are hollow and have a tensioning bar inside and are supposed to reduce deflection and chatter !

Now I've never seen one, only read the blurb, but again they are aimed squarely at industry.

From a hobbyist point of view the boring bar should be the biggest diameter that will bore the hole without fouling and taking a spring cut generally works fine.

I've used slot drills and milling cutters before now to bore accurate relatively deep holes.  Using one offers some interesting benefits. 
"D" bits are another good way of getting a round straight deep hole.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Guys,





This is a slab of unknown mild steel plate showing the fly cut surface. You can see that the cutter didn't quite cover the whole plate.  I don't remember what speed or cut depth was, probably about 10 thou.










These two horrible pictures are the grind on one end of the tool bit, the other end is a more conventional shape.





Another view looking at the bottom with a better view of the tool bit.


----------



## Steamchick

Good stuff! - I think the cutter shape is the key, then it has to be used at the right speed and feed. You have obviously got that to a fine art! - Well done sir!


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Steamchick,



Steamchick said:


> Good stuff! - I think the cutter shape is the key, then it has to be used at the right speed and feed. You have obviously got that to a fine art! - Well done sir!



High praise indeed !  Thankyou.


----------



## HennieL

Yup, I agree with Steamchick.

I will definitely try the heavy "flywheel" approach - thanks for the info Baron.

Baron:


> Yes I've seen that paper !  That information is for production work on automatic (CNC) machines where time is money.  Also another observation is that Sandvic have an interest in pushing their own boring bars.  These are a bar where they are hollow and have a tensioning bar inside and are supposed to reduce deflection and chatter !



No argument with that   I only responded with that extract (also confirmed by the  two quotes that are from Mitshubishi and Dorian following directly after the Sandvik quote...) because Andy (Awake) stated earlier that he was not aware of a limit to boring bar overhang - only to drill depth in deep hole drilling.



> From a hobbyist point of view the boring bar should be the biggest diameter that will bore the hole without fouling and taking a spring cut generally works fine.



Now that's where my lack of experience comes in - I assumed that in the model engine hobby one had to make very small, precise holes, and given my experience gathered with my 8mm diameter boring bar (that does deflect slightly in deeper holes, resulting in the hole ending up with a cone shape if not cut more than once, and "eyeballing" in some small extra depth of cut as one progresses into the hole), I assumed that this 4xDC rule was applied/known by everyone. Well, I guess that's another "assume" that proves the old saying it makes an "ass u me" 

Regards,
Hennie


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Hennie, Guys,

I can't count the number of times that I've fallen for that mistake !
Drill a hole, bore it out then find that its bigger or smaller at one end.

I've just done some deep hole boring, 12 mm diameter 100 mm deep in 14.75 mm diameter EN1 steel rod.  10 mm diameter bar with a piece of 3 mm diameter HSS, a broken milling cutter.  I didn't even need to grind it.  I just used the corner of the flute.

I needed to make some 15 mm long spacers.  So it was a case of turn the outside down to size, push an 11 mm drill down the middle and bore the last half a millimeter out.









There are two spacers in this picture !  The bottom one is 10 mm long, just under 1.375 wall thickness, the other 15 mm long and 20 thou wall thickness.  Don't ask how I made that error... practice run


----------



## HennieL

MADJACK said:


> Very cool, nice shop.


Thanks Madjack


----------



## awake

Thanks, Hennie - interesting to see the "official" recommendation, though I take Baron's point to heart.

Unless your boring bar is extraordinarily stout, you will nearly always get some taper if you only bore once. As said above (maybe also by Baron), the key is a spring pass - or even more than one. When it really, really matters, I take two-three spring passes. Note that you need to factor this in to measuring the bore - if you measure a single-pass, dial in your final diameter, and then bore with spring passes, it will wind up over-size. Not that I would know this personally. Ahem.


----------



## awake

Baron, that's a gorgeous fly cut surface!! Thanks for the additional info.


----------



## HennieL

awake said:


> As said above (maybe also by Baron), the key is a spring pass - or even more than one. When it really, really matters, I take two-three spring passes.



I do that too with brass, and mild steel

Perhaps my inclination to "stick to the rules" of limiting overhang, and trying to follow the manufacturers' speed & feed recommendations with normal turning, comes from the fact that up to now I have done a lot of my machining in tool steels such as 5160, 1095, O1 and EN45 (and also quite a bit in stainless steels such as 304 and 316 as well...), and all these steels work harden when your cutter rubs - it is therefore important to take proper depth cuts to stay below the "hardening zone", and to use carbide insert tools.

This is also the case when drilling into these steels - I cannot tell you how many drills I've broken until I learned to just keep on drilling and never stop until you're through - not even for a second to add more cutting oil, even if smoke starts to come out of the hole! This is the reasons why I've changed completely to using only cobalt drills on the larger sizes, and carbide drills on the smaller holes. Of course, bear in mind that my "smaller sizes" go down to 1.3mm drills to make screw holes for pocket knife liners in titanium, and then using 0-80 taps to make the threads...


----------



## awake

Oh yes, harder to machine materials require greater attention to the rules!


----------



## BaronJ

I hate stainless...  A friend has said to me a few times, if you want some I've got plenty.  He seems to be able to machine it like it was EN1


----------



## HennieL

OK, let's get back to the shop...

 Being the type that believes in having a place for every thing, and everything in it's place, one of the best purchases for my shop was this tool trolley, that also doubles as my TIG welding cart:






My "general" lathe tools are in the first drawer:





My quick-change toolholders (Swiss type) and boring bar holders are in drawer no 2:





All the drill chucks and lathe cutters and bits are in no 3:





I have a weak spot for drills, as can be seen in drawer no 4:





Drawer number 5 is for my measuring tools:




No 6 is for all my TIG and other welding "stuff":





The change wheels and steadies (and a few other odds and ends) are in drawer no 7:





And the deep drawer no 8 houses my TIG foot control, the lathe face plate and four-position tool post, and some gloves:





And the large vertical section on the right is used to store my welding helmet, ventilator and four-jaw chuck (when it's not on my lathe, which is not very often...)


----------



## HennieL

And in case you're wondering, my spanners and other "general" small tools are stored in a wooden cupboard that used to be mounted over my wooden work bench, but because of having to re-arrange my garage to accommodate the lathe is now only mounted over my car


----------



## Richard Hed

HennieL said:


> And in case you're wondering, my spanners and other "general" small tools are stored in a wooden cupboard that used to be mounted over my wooden work bench, but because of having to re-arrange my garage to accommodate the lathe is now only mounted over my car
> View attachment 116531


You are so organized, how can you ever find anything?


----------



## HennieL

Richard, that's the only way that I DO find anything.

I just hate it to look for a missing tool, and as I posted earlier in this thread, I have some nasty gremlins living in my workshop who likes nothing better than to hide my tools if I don't put them away after use.


----------



## simonbirt

BaronJ said:


> Hello Hennie,
> 
> I've made many tools to do various jobs,
> View attachment 116210
> 
> This is a fly cutter that I made.  It is very much my goto tool when I want to surface something.  I've also made fly cutters for doing dovetails.
> View attachment 116211
> View attachment 116212
> 
> Like this one I made for a grinding jig.
> View attachment 116214
> 
> Boring bars.  This one is made from a printer shaft with a broken slocom ground into a cutter and held in placewith a screw.  Note that It isn't in a holder.  Simply clamped in the tool slot.
> 
> I've also made a table traverse using a car window wiper motor and a few gears.
> View attachment 116215
> 
> This is it mounted on the left end of the table.  It has a tumbler gear that give me forward, stop and reverse.  The red arrows indicating table direction.
> 
> These are only a few things that make the mill a much used machine.


Just came across your picture of your power feed for your mill. I like the idea of a tumbler reverse gear. Could you perhaps post some pictures showing the details?


----------



## BaronJ

simonbirt said:


> Just came across your picture of your power feed for your mill. I like the idea of a tumbler reverse gear. Could you perhaps post some pictures showing the details?



Hi Simon,

Yes I can post some pictures of my mill table feed !  Though you do need to be aware that apart from the salvaged window screen wiper motor everything was scavenged from scrapped equipment, printers, photocopiers and the like.





This is a drawing of the tumbler design.  The large gear is the one on the end of the table lead screw that replaces the handle.  The three smaller gears are shown inside a circle and not a gear.  The center one is the gear fitted onto the wiper motor drive shaft, and the two smaller gears are the pair the actually do the tumbling to reverse the table direction.

I haven't done it but one of those two gears could be larger than the other which will give you different speeds in the other table direction.  I considered that having two different table speeds in each direction could cause problems and confusion.

I've other pictures that I can post, but must emphasize that it is unlikely that you would be able to salvage the same four gears that I did, so treat any sizes as a guide !


----------



## goldstar31

In a fit of I am not sure now, I bought an Align thing for my Warco ( probably Chinese) mill drill. Again,  in another phase of the Moon, I bought a DRO for the Myford lathe. Probably it was for my almost non existent eye sight- and one of my good close friends, having unload d quite a lot of money etc to the families and various charities- it was 'my turn'

Living alone , being sort of ancient and bogged down for the last 7-8 months now and seemingly a continuing lock down, the question of keeping sane exists for not only me - but the rest of those who live- laughingly in what is called 'the twilight of life'. I confess that I have never consumed so much alcohol.
Another ( very dim) Moonbeam from a Lesser Lunacy

Norman


----------



## ajoeiam

HennieL said:


> OK, let's get back to the shop...
> 
> Being the type that believes in having a place for every thing, and everything in it's place, one of the best purchases for my shop was this tool trolley, that also doubles as my TIG welding cart:
> View attachment 116521
> 
> 
> My "general" lathe tools are in the first drawer:
> View attachment 116522
> 
> 
> My quick-change toolholders (Swiss type) and boring bar holders are in drawer no 2:
> View attachment 116523
> 
> 
> All the drill chucks and lathe cutters and bits are in no 3:
> View attachment 116524
> 
> 
> I have a weak spot for drills, as can be seen in drawer no 4:
> View attachment 116525
> 
> 
> Drawer number 5 is for my measuring tools:
> View attachment 116526
> 
> No 6 is for all my TIG and other welding "stuff":
> View attachment 116527
> 
> 
> The change wheels and steadies (and a few other odds and ends) are in drawer no 7:
> View attachment 116528
> 
> 
> And the deep drawer no 8 houses my TIG foot control, the lathe face plate and four-position tool post, and some gloves:
> View attachment 116529
> 
> 
> And the large vertical section on the right is used to store my welding helmet, ventilator and four-jaw chuck (when it's not on my lathe, which is not very often...)
> View attachment 116530



Sir - - - - I don't see a dead blow hammer in your collection  - - - - would suggest you obtain one post haste  (grin!)


----------



## Mike Ginn

In my view a DRO on the X/Y axis of the Myford is the best upgrade I have made.  Being able to zero, select rad or dia and being able to switch from mm to imperial is a great time saver.  The cross slide scale is machined into the casting so there is no scale to interfere with machining.  My next great upgrade was to fit a 3 axis DRO to my Warco mill.  This came with almost half a turn of backlash and an impossible scale.  The DRO solved all the problems and makes it a very usable tool.  The DRO came from Machine-DRO.  The mill uses optical and the Myford used magnetic scales.


----------



## Steamchick

HennieL. Do you have a long stand in the corner? Or a sky hook outside? You seem to be short of nothing. I am just short of space, although when I look at the night sky there is plenty just out of reach! Maybe I'm on another planet? Or off my rocker?
Good to see you pics!
K


----------



## goldstar31

i agree with Mike having fitted a Machin-DRO to my Myford Super7B PXF.
There is only one demerit and that is prior to all this, I never realised how inaccurate my machining was.

whilst I have these little Chinese linear scales o my Mill/Drill, I'm seriously thing of having 'proper' ones

I'm still learning


----------



## simonbirt

BaronJ said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> Yes I can post some pictures of my mill table feed !  Though you do need to be aware that apart from the salvaged window screen wiper motor everything was scavenged from scrapped equipment, printers, photocopiers and the like.
> 
> View attachment 119982
> 
> This is a drawing of the tumbler design.  The large gear is the one on the end of the table lead screw that replaces the handle.  The three smaller gears are shown inside a circle and not a gear.  The center one is the gear fitted onto the wiper motor drive shaft, and the two smaller gears are the pair the actually do the tumbling to reverse the table direction.
> 
> I haven't done it but one of those two gears could be larger than the other which will give you different speeds in the other table direction.  I considered that having two different table speeds in each direction could cause problems and confusion.
> 
> I've other pictures that I can post, but must emphasize that it is unlikely that you would be able to salvage the same four gears that I did, so treat any sizes as a guide !


Brilliant thank you, some pictures would be good. I may make the gears. I like the tumbler reverse idea as it is very simple and robust. I was going to use a clutch of some sort but with a tumbler gear no need.


----------



## BaronJ

simonbirt said:


> Brilliant thank you, some pictures would be good. I may make the gears. I like the tumbler reverse idea as it is very simple and robust. I was going to use a clutch of some sort but with a tumbler gear no need.



Hi Simon, 

I would be interested to know if you are going to use a window screen wiper motor in yours.





Ok, this is the drawing for the drive end of the table on my mill.  Just for reference my mill is a Chinese copy of a Optimum BF20LB, which is the long bed version.








This is the drawing for the salvaged plastic gear that I used to drive the table.  I made a brass center piece to fit the 10 mm diameter end of the table lead screw.  This gear replaces the handle that was on the end.











This drawing was of the hub that I made to support the plastic disc that I used to mount the tumbler gears on.  The plastic disc was a piece of the end of a 60 mm diameter conveyor roller.  I think that it was carbon loaded PVC.











Lunch time, I'll post more later.


----------



## BaronJ

BaronJ said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> I would be interested to know if you are going to use a window screen wiper motor in yours.
> 
> View attachment 120076
> 
> Ok, this is the drawing for the drive end of the table on my mill.  Just for reference my mill is a Chinese copy of a Optimum BF20LB, which is the long bed version.
> 
> View attachment 120077
> 
> This is the drawing for the salvaged plastic gear that I used to drive the table.  I made a brass center piece to fit the 10 mm diameter end of the table lead screw.  This gear replaces the handle that was on the end.
> 
> View attachment 120078
> 
> This drawing was of the hub that I made to support the plastic disc that I used to mount the tumbler gears on.  The plastic disc was a piece of the end of a 60 mm diameter conveyor roller.  I think that it was carbon loaded PVC.
> 
> 
> Lunch time, I'll post more later.



I'm not sure what is going on when I try to edit my original post, it simply disappears.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Simon, Guys,

Sorry about dashing off, when my wife has cooked a lunch I've got to go before it get cold. 

I'll try again !

Some more pictures:-




This is a drawing showing the measurements of my table.






This is a better drawing of the tumbler gear arrangement, with the sizes of the gears that I used. Note that the two small gears mesh along the horizontal line.  The position where the lever is horizontal is the neutral position where the top small gear just clears the main gear in the center.






This picture shows how the tumbler gears were mounted on the thick Nylon 60 piece.  The nylon plug with a small threaded hole in it is a dummy piece, the whole part pivots on the end of the mill table casting.  The screw on the left is the stop screw limiting the movement of the Nylon piece.





This shows the mechanism that I used to obtain three gear positions.  The selector plunger simply drops into a notch.  You can see the green lines indicating the three positions.






The three pillars are the mountings for the wiper motor.

I have some more pictures if you want them.


----------



## simonbirt

BaronJ said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> I would be interested to know if you are going to use a window screen wiper motor in yours.
> 
> View attachment 120076
> 
> Ok, this is the drawing for the drive end of the table on my mill.  Just for reference my mill is a Chinese copy of a Optimum BF20LB, which is the long bed version.
> 
> View attachment 120076
> View attachment 120077
> 
> This is the drawing for the salvaged plastic gear that I used to drive the table.  I made a brass center piece to fit the 10 mm diameter end of the table lead screw.  This gear replaces the handle that was on the end.
> 
> View attachment 120076
> View attachment 120077
> View attachment 120078
> 
> This drawing was of the hub that I made to support the plastic disc that I used to mount the tumbler gears on.  The plastic disc was a piece of the end of a 60 mm diameter conveyor roller.  I think that it was carbon loaded PVC.
> 
> View attachment 120076
> View attachment 120077
> View attachment 120078
> 
> Lunch time, I'll post more later.


Hello Baron,

This is really helpful. Not sure about the motor yet, there are many options. I will look forward to part two.

Regards,

Simon


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Simon, Guys,

I'm not sure what happened to my post with the first pictures in it repeated multiple times and the system blanking the post not letting me remove them.

Some more pictures, these are of the dog clutch mechanism for selecting the direction with the tumbler gears.





This picture shows the piece with the dog teeth in it.  The length of bar is threaded with a coarse thread and screwed into the Nylon 60 plastic block. The 2.5 mm hole in that bar is for the pin that the spring bears against to hold the dogs into the teeth.








These two pictures show the completed handle assembly for the dog clutch.  The black plastic part was machined from Acetal rod and the end cap was a bit parted of a piece of nylon rod and glued onto the end of the rod pressed into a recess.





This is the end of the sleeve with 3 mm diameter steel pins pressed into a brass collar soft soldered onto the brass sleeve.  Note in the next picture the slits in the brass sleeve.  This was done because the brass sleeve was a poor fit on the 1/4" steel rod used as the tumbler operating lever.




The pillars that you can see here were used to hold the mounting plate for the wiper motor.





You can get an idea of how thick the tube was from the legs on the left hand side.  They were used to prevent rotation of the dogs inside the toothed part.  The slot in the tube was for the spring retaining pin could be pressed into the hole in the lever.

This was a fiddly component to make but it works extremely well.

Hope this helps.


----------



## BaronJ

Is anybody else having issues with editing their posts ?
The instant I click on the post it vanishes !


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## simonbirt

Hello Baron,

Thank you for all the pictures and drawings. They have given me a lot to think about. I will probably use a wiper motor as you did as the mounting works well. 

The first job is to check dimensions on my mill and see what I have around, may try some 3d printed parts as an experiment and possibly comercial gears rather than cut them. I imagine the loads are not particularly high. 

What do you use as a speed controller? 

I will start a thread when I have something to show, although this may be a while as I have other projects to finish including a Farm Boy which is taking longer than expected, but hat is another story. 

Regards,

Simon


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## BaronJ

simonbirt said:


> Hello Baron,
> 
> Thank you for all the pictures and drawings. They have given me a lot to think about. I will probably use a wiper motor as you did as the mounting works well.
> 
> The first job is to check dimensions on my mill and see what I have around, may try some 3d printed parts as an experiment and possibly commercial gears rather than cut them. I imagine the loads are not particularly high.
> 
> What do you use as a speed controller?
> 
> I will start a thread when I have something to show, although this may be a while as I have other projects to finish including a Farm Boy which is taking longer than expected, but hat is another story.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Simon



Hi Simon,
I have a variable voltage variable current DC power supply.  I used to monitor the current drawn when machining things.  Most of the time the wiper motor runs at 5 to 10 volts and rarely draws more than 2.5 amps.

I did modify the wiper motor by stripping the socket and connectors from it and drilling out the rivets holding the back plate on.  I only did this to make sure that everything inside was lubricated and there wasn't any damaged teeth on the drive gear and that the spindle bearing wasn't warn.

Two things to be aware of !  One the wiper motor is designed to run in one direction only, and two, the motors can be obtained in both left and right hand versions.  I chose the one that allows the motor to be mounted to the rear below the level of the top of the machine bed.

Some wiper motors are dual speed I can use either but currently only use the low speed connection.  The motors will happily run in either direction but some only have a thrust bearing at one end of the motor worm, others may have two, one at each end of the worm shaft.  Using a tumbler gear mechanism it doesn't matter which direction the motor runs to drive the mill table drive gears.

I have some pictures of mods I made.


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## simonbirt

BaronJ said:


> Hi Simon,
> I have a variable voltage variable current DC power supply.  I used to monitor the current drawn when machining things.  Most of the time the wiper motor runs at 5 to 10 volts and rarely draws more than 2.5 amps.
> 
> I did modify the wiper motor by stripping the socket and connectors from it and drilling out the rivets holding the back plate on.  I only did this to make sure that everything inside was lubricated and there wasn't any damaged teeth on the drive gear and that the spindle bearing wasn't warn.
> 
> Two things to be aware of !  One the wiper motor is designed to run in one direction only, and two, the motors can be obtained in both left and right hand versions.  I chose the one that allows the motor to be mounted to the rear below the level of the top of the machine bed.
> 
> Some wiper motors are dual speed I can use either but currently only use the low speed connection.  The motors will happily run in either direction but some only have a thrust bearing at one end of the motor worm, others may have two, one at each end of the worm shaft.  Using a tumbler gear mechanism it doesn't matter which direction the motor runs to drive the mill table drive gears.
> 
> I have some pictures of mods I made.


Hello Baron,

Thanks for your reply. Pictures would be helpful as they say worth, a thousand words.....I will now source a motor as a starting point. I have to say I really like the simplicity of your set up. Some solutions I have seen are overly complicated, using stepper motors, clutches etc. 

Regards,

Simon


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## BaronJ

simonbirt said:


> Hello Baron,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. Pictures would be helpful as they say worth, a thousand words.....I will now source a motor as a starting point. I have to say I really like the simplicity of your set up. Some solutions I have seen are overly complicated, using stepper motors, clutches etc.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Simon


Hi Simon,

Here are some pictures of the "Trico" window screen motor that I used. 






This is a picture of the wiper motor that I used. Notice the arm which drives the wiper blades.  Apart from the nut the only other thing that holds the arm to the drive shaft is some splines.

That shaft was very carefully heated whilst the plastic gear that is attached to it was pressed in place and the nut used to apply just enough force to cause the gear to mold itself onto the splines.  After which it was removed.  The splines were wire brushed to ensure that they were clean and then a drop of oil was brushed on to stop the gear from sticking permanently to the splines.






This plastic cable connector had the pins with the wires attached removed and thrown away.





This is the identification printed on the motor case.  Yours may differ.  If its any help I obtained several different wiper motors from a vehicle scrap yard at £1 each.  The picture identifys the one I used.





Although there are five pins, only two of them had wires connected !
The third wire is internally connected to the motor case.





As you can see I drilled the rivets out and disposed of these parts.





Inside there are three wipers that run on the brass rings inside that are on the worm wheel.  These were also disposed of !





In this picture you can see the remains of the four rivets which were removed and the holes threaded 4BA for the screws used to re-fasten the closing plate.





This picture is a close up of the thrust bearing at the end of the worm.  There is a blanking plug that can be removed if needed to gain access to the adjusting screw for the thrust bearing, which is a simple steel ball and adjusting screw.  I don't recommend removing the blanking plug unless you have to.  On this wiper motor assembly there is a simple ball and a bronze bearing at the other end that supports the motor armature.

I'll post some more pictures in a minute.


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## BaronJ

Hi Simon,  Some more pictures to complete the wiper motor modifications.








These pictures show the splined end of the wiper motor shaft before being cleaned.  The bronze bush is pressed into the cast housing and the edge of the hole is crimped over to prevent the bush from coming out or moving under load. 

The shaft is a very good fit in this bush and did not exhibit any wear.





This picture shows the hex cap screws that I used to secure the cover plate.  In my previous post I said that they were 4 BA, they are M4 and there are five of them. You can see the piece of plastic sheet that I used to blank of the holes in the plate and stop the lubricating grease from escaping.





These are the fast and slow wire connections that I used on mine.








These two pictures show the gear partially pressed onto the drive shaft.  You do have to be very careful here not to soften the plastic worm wheel inside the case.  Also you have to be careful not to press the plastic gear down too far to avoid it going below the surface of the mounting plate.  You can see in this picture that the boss that the mounting plate sits on doesn't give you much room.
When you get to the bottom of the spline don't go any further.

That nut is not the original one !  I used that one because of the built in washer increasing the area that pressure was applied to the gear when pressing it onto the shaft.

Well that just about covers the wiper motor modifications.

Hope this helps with this part.


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## BaronJ

HennieL said:


> Richard, that's the only way that I DO find anything.
> 
> I just hate it to look for a missing tool, and as I posted earlier in this thread, I have some nasty gremlins living in my workshop who likes nothing better than to hide my tools if I don't put them away after use.



Hi Henniel, Guys,

At this point I think that I should apologize for hijacking this thread !
I really think that it ought to have gone into its own thread.  Maybe one of the moderators should move these posts referring to the "Mill Table Drive" into its own thread.

Thanks for understanding.


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## stackerjack

simonbirt said:


> Just came across your picture of your power feed for your mill. I like the idea of a tumbler reverse gear. Could you perhaps post some pictures showing the details?



Do you have any details of your power supply for the wiper motor please?


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## BaronJ

stackerjack said:


> Do you have any details of your power supply for the wiper motor please?



I have several commercial variable voltage variable current power supplies, the one I'm using for the mill table drive is this one, but you can use anything that can supply DC at couple of amps and can be varied from a couple of volts to about 15V.








These two pictures show the no load running current at 12 volts and the current running at 12 volts driving the table with a 20 Lb weight placed on it to simulate actual use.

Since I find that using a range of between 4 and 8 volts provides enough cutting speed range the current rarely goes above 2 amps.
I accidentally stalled the mill table once and it just sheared the center out of the drive gear on the wiper motor.  Luckily I had several spare gears, they just needed fitting to the motor shaft.


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## Nimmy_Nile

Whoa, the workshop looks so cool and organized. All the best


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## simonbirt

Hello Baron,

Just spotted your comments on the power supply. All very useful thanks. Will start by gathering bits together ready for when I fancy a change from turning bar stock to swarf for the Farm Boy. Just spent best part of a week making the flywheels from 6” cast iron bar, I may need a change soon. 

Regards,

Simon


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## HennieL

Nimmy_Nile said:


> Whoa, the workshop looks so cool and organized. All the best


Thanks Nimmy - and Welcome to HMEM 


> Hi Henniel, Guys,
> 
> At this point I think that I should apologize for hijacking this thread !
> I really think that it ought to have gone into its own thread.  Maybe one of the moderators should move these posts referring to the "Mill Table Drive" into its own thread.
> 
> Thanks for understanding.


No problem Baron - must say, I've been a bit scarce on the Forum, and appreciate it that you've been keeping this thread alive.

Regards to Everyone


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## Poppy Ott

Richard Hed said:


> It's fine.  You should see MY shop--recently partly cleaned and rearranged it--now, I can almost walk in it.  Will be rearranging more, cleaning more and adding more moveable drawers.  I am looking into a Chinese lathe, am wondering if anyone has any experience with medium sized ones (under 4000$).  I need more space for it.  As I am retard (Borat's "retired"), I don't have much moolah and so make as many of my tools as I can.  My biggest prob is that I need to make tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the parts I am making (not a joke).  believe it or don't, I just learned my first silver soldering to make internal threads--I was surprised at how easy and effective it was.  I have a crappy little Enco lathe (I was used to using REAL machines at work as a machinist), which doesn't even cut left hand threads, is extremely unridged and so on gripe gripe gripe.  I have really had to completely re-learn machining to accomodate such a tiny lathe.  What I am doing now is making an ER-25 chuck holder for easier holding tiny parts.  Since the Enco has a 1-1/2" -8tpi, I have to do those threads internally.  With the horribly flexing tool post and the speed of rotation of the chuck, it is nearly impossible.  So I have decided to put a crank (actually a steering wheel)  on the back side of the lathe head and turn the threads manually.
> 
> So for some advice for those who don't know, when yhou get a lathe, make sure there is at least one setting for VERY slow turning, under 50rpms.  Your little lathe looks very nice.  What brand is it?  I can't believe the number of manufacturors of lathes in China--it's incredible.  But who to trust?


“. . .I need to make tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the parts I am making . . .”  The story of my workshop life.


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

My apologies !  I'm not going to make any excuses, I had completely forgotten about this thread, so if anyone wants more info please shout out.


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