# Metric availability rant



## tmuir (Nov 21, 2008)

In Australia we went metric in 1966.
Today I went to my local hardware stores to get some 10mm nuts and either some 10mm threaded rod or some 10mm bolts to use with the T nuts I bought for my mill the other day and would you believe it both hardware stores where I live only had imperial bolts and threaded!
I know our large chain store hardware shops are crap where I live but I thought they would atleast stock metric nuts and bolts but I guess 42 years of us going metric isn't long enough....


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## jack404 (Nov 21, 2008)

G'day mate i went through this a while ago and found out the folowing

nearly all our ( OZ ) hardware is overseas owned or franchised to locals from the majors

the chain buyers set "stock" for the stores, 
Bunnings is set in Bombay India
Mitre10 Bristol UK
Home hardware Dallas TX

the small local guy here ( riverwood NSW) gets told how many of something he must take and at what price he must sell to match a national guide and theres big penalties if he dont

nuts and bolts included

stupid huh ?

best bet is to remind them that metric is MANDATORY and failing to comply is a $50,000 fine when enough stores pass this back to head offive we'll get there ( or it worked for me in Adelaide ) but i admit i bulk buy from the local manufacturers/supply houses now ( box lots) and make the rest

its way cheaper than $9.50 for 10 x 8mmx1mm nut and bolts ( $16 for 100 bolts with nuts plus postage)

http://www.bolts.com.au/index.php

http://www.nutandboltfactory.com.au

http://www.boltmasters.com.au/main/products.htm

and these folks have a office in the 'gong i think

http://www.fastenersales.com.au/contact.php

hope this helps

jack


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## tmuir (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks a lot for that.
I've book marked all of them and think I may have a sit down and think about all the other sizes I want and place a bulk order.
I'm buying less and less from these big hardware stores especially Bunnings as I've found their quality going down on what was already average over the last couple of years.
I no longer buy nails from Bunnings as they import ones made in china which are made of an inferior grade metal to local ones and I find up to 10% are bent in the packet before you use them let alone when you try and hammer them in.


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## jack404 (Nov 22, 2008)

When Bunnings was taken over by the Indian firm/family they changed the corporate logo from

"Quality and lowest prices guarenteed"

to 

"lower prices are just the beginning"

now Big W is way cheaper on the GMC and Ozito stuff if you buy it and yes most of there stuff is 3rd rate

they have the odd specials that are ok but the every day price is not cheap

i am very lucky being where i am, there are three steel companies within 2 K's of me and a number of small companies making fastners of various desciptions and most places do counter sales and are way cheap that way

my mate from Bega comes to sydney once a year just to do a factory door day he gets 90% of his stuff that way and he reckons he saves a few hundred even with the fuel from bega ( he makes boats and trailers)

Brisbane has a heap of nut and bolt manufacturers so brisbane yellow pages online is another great place to look

good luck mate

jack


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## tel (Nov 22, 2008)

Not that it matters, but ...... only our currency went metric in 1966 (14th Feb.) general metrication didn't come into force until about a decade later - mid 70's. Then we went through a silly period where sellers were labeling imperial fasteners as the nearest metric equivalent, which they weren't. At the same time it became impossible to buy rulers or measuring equipment in imperial - and altogether misguided act that was, fortunately, short.

These days we have reached a state of equilibrium where both are readily available BUT the customers have spoken and metric bolts are not generally accepted by the DIY and Home Handyman that make up the bulk of loose sales from the hardware chains. Thus the preponderance of the whitworth bolt in these places.

Any Industrial Supply house or bolt store will have all the metrical stuff you can poke a stick at - just don't expect to find it in Woolies.


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## Maryak (Nov 22, 2008)

Tel,

Spot on :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## compound driver 2 (Nov 22, 2008)

I wish we could buy imperial in the hardware stores in the UK. We have to put up with metric junk for everything, drives me up the wall.
Im not all that happy about our 9 year old being told in school that it ilegal to use imperial. I sent him in with an imperial rule only to find it had been taken off him (it allso had millipeeds on it). I went up to his school and tore the teacher a spare one. 
He uses imperial in my workshop and will end up using imperial on steam restorations so he needs to know the imperial system not the EU correct metric b*ll*x. Imperial has served him in building a Stuart Turner and a freelance oscilating engine so i doubt he's unable to measure. His verticle boiler designed by him is also in imperial so it looks like our 9 year old is going to continue breaking the law.
I hate europe!


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## tel (Nov 22, 2008)

Hopefully your 'silly period' will pass quickly and you will reach the common sense compromise that we did.


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## Maryak (Nov 22, 2008)

Our US friends were smarter than we were, they stuck to their guns and used what they were and are comfortable with. :bow: Wonder how they get on if they want imp or metric fasteners ???

I have 3 tool boxes one English, one American and one Metric.

Lucky I'm a tool freak :

Best Regards
Bob


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## rickharris (Nov 22, 2008)

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> ... I sent him in with an imperial rule only to find it had been taken off him (it allso had millipeeds on it). I went up to his school and tore the teacher a spare one.
> ...



It's worse than you think! School will also teach him to use Centipeeds - In fact depending on his technology teachers he may never meet a Millipeed!

As for metrication in the USA - They started in 1800 with the geo survey department - various efforts and legislation fell by the way side -

"Congress included new encouragement for U.S. industrial metrication in the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988. This legislation amended the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 and designated the metric system as "the Preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce". The legislation states that the Federal Government has a responsibility to assist industry, especially small business, as it voluntarily converts to the metric system of measurement."

From Wikipedia


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## tel (Nov 22, 2008)

Interestingly enough Bob, the principal reason we went metric was because the US was gearing up to do so - we forged ahead, and in the meantime they thought better of it.

Still, it works to our advantage - a contact at P&N some years back assured me that there would always be imperial stuff available from them, as it's needed by the manufacturers who make stuff for export to non-metric countries.


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## tmuir (Nov 22, 2008)

Don't get me wrong.
I only buy rulers that have metric and imperial on them and was agast at the attempt of the EU to out law imperial nuts and bolts etc (thankfully that didn't happen) just bugged me I couldn't get metric bolts at my local hardware store.

I prefer metric because that was what I was taught but still sometimes work with imperial because when I restore old toy steam engines they were made using imperial material.


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## greenie (Nov 22, 2008)

jack404  said:
			
		

> When Bunnings was taken over by the Indian firm/family they changed the corporate logo from "Quality and lowest prices guarenteed" to "lower prices are just the beginning"
> 
> good luck mate - jack



Hey Jack, have a look at these links, the year 1994 is the important one as well as the year 2001.

http://www.bunnings.com.au/contact-us_who-we-are_history.aspx

http://www.wesfarmers.com.au/

regards greenie


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## kvom (Nov 22, 2008)

My local Ace harware store has an excellent stock of bolts/nuts/screws, much much better than the big-box stores. That said, there are two full rows of imperial fasteners and one row end of metric. The downside is that buying fasteners in single quantities is expensive. I'm thinking that I need to order some 100-count boxes of common screws from Enco instead.

Of course, you need a full metric set of wrenches and sockets to work on any vehicle these days, as imperial and metric fasteners are mixed freely (not to metion Torx).


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## shred (Nov 22, 2008)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Our US friends were smarter than we were, they stuck to their guns and used what they were and are comfortable with. :bow: Wonder how they get on if they want imp or metric fasteners ???


Actually it's becoming a nuisance for model engine building. Everything imported has metric fasteners (including lot of US cars), while the old stuff has imperial. The hardware store stock of metric fasteners isn't large by any means and even the imperial selection is pretty poor unless you're building full-size. Unless you go way out of your way, tooling is 99% imperial.. 

Engine plans have a mix from all-imperial to all-metric to mixed hodgepodges (and the old Brit plans have fun things like BA threads we don't get), especially if the same plan has been converted from one to the other and back. You need to carry two full sets of hex keys or wrenches if you plan to turn any bolts or socket screws you run across. The other day I think I found a metric threaded SHCS with an imperial hex hole 

Luckily there's a local bolt supply that has pretty much anything I could ever need available for cheap, but it makes me wonder how the next generation tinkerers will get on with so little inspiration at the 'hardware' store. The last real hardware store with a wall of cigar-sized boxes full of little odd parts closed. I wanted to buy the whole wall. As a kid, I'd go into those places and poke at the little boxes with ball bearings and magnets and springs and so on and imagine the cool things that could be made with them. Now it's all window treatments and custom drawer pulls.


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## Cedge (Nov 22, 2008)

Perhaps a bit off topic, but the city where I live, for many years, hosted the world's largest international textile machinery show. Shortly after the rest of the world went metric, I noticed something odd. The international visitors were walking around town with bags full of yard sticks and 12 inch rulers. Some had what looked like hundreds of them. 

Turned out that they were buying them as inexpensive but novel souvenirs to take back home to give friends and family. Every year, when the show ended, you couldn't find a ruler or yard stick anywhere in town.

Steve


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## tmuir (Nov 22, 2008)

shred  said:
			
		

> (and the old Brit plans have fun things like BA threads we don't get)



Hence when I was on holidays in the UK the other week I bought a complete set of BA taps and dies.
You can get them in OZ but not for as cheap as I got this set in UK.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 22, 2008)

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Re: Appropriate use of studs vs. bolts
« Reply #15 on: Today at 08:45:52 AM »
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The problem in England is we have a bunch of nanny state loving twits running the country. Every law that europe wants us to have we take with out argument. Be it the metric system or same sex weddings. Our nanny state government wont stand up to europe and say no as the people want. Sadly we all get to bend over and accept the laws imposed on us by europe.

My father used imperial his father used it and Iw as taught to use it. All the machines I own are imperial and all the traction engines I repair for a living were made using imperial tools. We were once a great engineering country, we are now a country of shop keeps and office wallers. The metric system is just the tip of the iceberg of rot in this country.

Keeping the imperial system wont bring back teh great days of industry for England but it will keep a system that has served us well for generations.


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## shred (Nov 23, 2008)

tmuir  said:
			
		

> Hence when I was on holidays in the UK the other week I bought a complete set of BA taps and dies.
> You can get them in OZ but not for as cheap as I got this set in UK.


Hmm, I have a friend in the UK, but I suspect then I'd need a bucket of BA nuts and bolts too


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## Kludge (Nov 23, 2008)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Our US friends were smarter than we were, they stuck to their guns and used what they were and are comfortable with.



Oddly enough, a number of people think we're backwards for doing so. I'm comfortable with metric, Imperial, mixed or invented systems, but I'm also known to be ever so slightly mad which may be why.

I'm even considering ordering some of the unique sizes from our cousins in England just to complicate things even more. Fractional, number size, metric and BA all in the same machine. Gotta love it. Maybe both tapered and straight pipe thread in some of the air and steam engines for no particular reason except for the fun of it. 

Oh, yes. So many combinations, so little time!

Best regards,

Kludge


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## bigal2749 (Nov 24, 2008)

Tony,
 Here in the US I was equally fustrated when I went to both Home Depot and Lowe's and was told they did not have any metric drills.  Since I've been working on toy steam engines I've really started to dislike the bigbox stores. 
 I've had some luck with the some independents (not many left) and have noticed their stuff never seems to be more expensive.
 At least it was easy to get a set of drills on ebay


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 24, 2008)

The meticification thing is a bit of a joke.I do service work for a scale company we do inspections calibrations repairs etc. Most of our industrial customers still get the scales inspected /calibrated with pound weights. A few of the customers the inspections are done with KG weights but the calibration still needs to be done with pound weights that are calibrated by the State on a balance that reads in kilograms/grams. HMM are you confused!!!
Tin


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## baldrocker (Nov 24, 2008)

Ebay store "boltmeup", more stainless nuts, bolts, of all types than you can poke a stick at.
Bulk multi size allen head with nuts, nylocks and washers packs 280 excellent value and
quick to post from UK.
Metric is good, will the LUDDITES ever accept change. : (Although recent events in the US suggest
there is hope)
 Yes there is a case for imperial when working on old machinery but for new construction go metric.

I am now stretching out my neck waiting for the guillotine to drop.


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## tmuir (Nov 24, 2008)

baldrocker  said:
			
		

> Yes there is a case for imperial when working on old machinery but for new construction go metric.
> 
> I am now stretching out my neck waiting for the guillotine to drop.



When I first started tooling up I planned to only use metric in my new builds but have since discovered I can't get most of my material in metric sizes which has forced me to change my ideas. Thread sizes is a nightmare. So far I use Metric, BSW, BSF and BA and I'm sure soon I will be needing other sizes.


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## tel (Nov 25, 2008)

;D I have screwing tackle for Metric (coarse & fine) BA, BSW, BSF, ME (32 & 40 tpi) BSB, BSP, UNC & UNF here and I"m still finding threads I can't handle. One day .......


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## Maryak (Nov 25, 2008)

I only dream about a full set of number, metric (in 0.1mm Increment), Letter and Imperial drills.

Not to mention, Full sets of BA, BSP, BSW, BSF, Metric Coarse and Fine UNC, UNF, UNP and ME taps and dies all in HSS.

Best Regards
Bob


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## tel (Nov 25, 2008)

The range I have are by no means full sets - just the sizes I often use, + 'bargains' etc. A good set of 0.1mm drills just about supersedes the need for number drills. I bought a set 20 some years ago and it was a really good investment, although there's probably not a lot of the original drills in the case now.  A bit like my grandfather's axe, that I have here - 3 new heads and six new handles, but it's a good as the day he gave it to me.


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## jack404 (Nov 25, 2008)

Bob

Cedray have 0.1 mm incriment drill sets TiNi coated 1mm-13mm for $129 ATM if they haven't sold out (November special)

and i saw a set on Evilbay for a few bucks less a week or so ago ($110 sold price maybe?)

but got a set from Ozmestore of Oztion a couple months ago for similar $$ ( $135 i think) 

cheers

jack


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## Maryak (Nov 25, 2008)

Tel and Jack,

Thanks to both of you for the info; both the what and the where. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## compound driver 2 (Nov 25, 2008)

metric bolts and nuts do not look scale on anything you build. If I use metric bolts on a 1 inch to the foot engine the head sizes are wrong and the threads look odd. 
If some one asks me to build a traction engine for them and commits to multiple thousands of pounds nine times out of ten im not going to get paid or get any more work if I use bolts that have heads and threads that dont look scale, and yes scale looking thread form does matter.
Im building a 1.5 tonn 4 inch to the foot Mclaren road loco at the moment that will be kept for my own use. I plan to copy the thread forms used on the engine. easy to do as I have the full size engine five miles from me. 

If you want odd threads try looking at the Fowler traction engines they had there own thread form for many years and it looks nothing like any of the comon threads. 

Letter and number drills are to my mind essential if your building models of any scale. For tapping BA threads theres as a rule a metric drill thats close to the correct tapping size but close and right are a long way off. Its worth putting the cash out for drill sets there always usefull to have.

One point il add is BA is a derivation of an old metric system.


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## tel (Nov 25, 2008)

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> metric bolts and nuts do not look scale on anything you build. If I use metric bolts on a 1 inch to the foot engine the head sizes are wrong and the threads look odd.
> If some one asks me to build a traction engine for them and commits to multiple thousands of pounds nine times out of ten im not going to get paid or get any more work if I use bolts that have heads and threads that dont look scale, and yes scale looking thread form does matter.
> 
> 
> ...



I will certainly agree about metric thread not looking right, at least to my eye, having used BA for so many years.

The 0.1 metric drills, tho', are nicely stepped at 0.004" (give or take a bit) and are close enough for most applications. The steps between number drills vary and are, in a lot of cases, far larger steps.


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## greenie (Nov 25, 2008)

For the masochists amongst this lot, who really want to know more about different threads, this site even has me amazed at what's available out there.

http://www.watchman.dsl.pipex.com/thread.html


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## Kludge (Nov 25, 2008)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> I only dream about a full set of number, metric (in 0.1mm Increment), Letter and Imperial drills.
> 
> Not to mention, Full sets of BA, BSP, BSW, BSF, Metric Coarse and Fine UNC, UNF, UNP and ME taps and dies all in HSS.


All for use on the same model, right? :big:

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## compound driver 2 (Nov 25, 2008)

Hi Kludge
In my tool boxes I have Whitworth from 1/8th to 1 1/2 inc. BA from 0 to 24 UNC from 1/4 up to about 3/4 inch. Me from 1/8th to 1/2 inch. three boxes of BSF assorted sizes. BSP most sizes. A full set of BSB (brass), Full set of 26TPI cycle. Plus a load more that I dont use. I also have dies to suit mostof the taps. Id say 80% are HSS 15% carbon steel and a few that im not sure about. I also have not wanting to miss out on the pain in athe ass ones. Home made taps for Fowlers and Aveling and porter steam traction engines. These were made at home to do odd jobs.

I honestly think having all the sizes of taps is as important as having a good selection of drill sets. None of them have to cost a fortune, many can be picked up at boot sales for a few pennies each. The sets are the only costly ones and they come up on offer from time to time.


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## Kludge (Nov 25, 2008)

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> I honestly think having all the sizes of taps is as important as having a good selection of drill sets. None of them have to cost a fortune, many can be picked up at boot sales for a few pennies each. The sets are the only costly ones and they come up on offer from time to time.



Being serious for a moment, I tend to agree. The idea of sticking to some narrow set of standards goes against the idea of being able to size a fastener to a given task rather than sizing the task to the fastener. With the complete set of drills you mentioned would also be a compete set of reamers for on, under and oversized holes, nice for fitting alignment pins and for tight, "just right" or loose threading. (Not all dies are adjustable, darn it.)

While I prefer to buy sets (mostly for organizational purposes), it's not always possible and it sometimes results in overlaps which take space I don't have. So, some are or will be in sets, some individuals, some catch as catch can. What a way to run a railroad!

BEst regards,

Kludge ... who found his 6-40 die and a whole lot more!


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## Maryak (Nov 26, 2008)

Kludge,

Naturally 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








Best Regards
Bob


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## Kludge (Nov 26, 2008)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Naturally



Ahhh, a man after me own heart.

As mentioned before, I prefer to size the threaded goodies to the project, not the other way around. As a result, having as many different sets as possible is a Good Thing to achieve that end ... and drive anyone trying to duplicate my work completely and totally raving sane. ;D

BEst regards,

Kludge


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