# Re: TB5 proposal



## JorgensenSteam (Dec 25, 2010)

How about building this one?
It is pretty simple.
I have about 1/2 of it drawn in CAD, and could finish it up quickly.


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## bearcar1 (Dec 25, 2010)

Hey Pat I agree with Tin, if you get those drawings done, I'd be willing to jump on that hand grenade with you as a part of that build (TB5?) if the total number of finished engines were kept to a minimum like here on the TB4. (5-6) If not, then Tin, you can deal me in on TB4 as the last man out.

BC1
Jim


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## cl350rr (Dec 25, 2010)

Pat, I like the looks of the engine you are drawing the plans for, if you go for a team build on it, I'm in

Randel


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 25, 2010)

I split off this for you.
Looks like you are the captain of TB 5 .
Have fun, looks like you need two more builders . I can probably do a set of parts if needed . Will be here to support you with organizing and advising whether or not I do any parts. 
Remember this is for fun and mutual support to obtain the set goals. 
Tin


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 26, 2010)

Let me know if I can help. Either by building or assisting you run the team.

Eric


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 26, 2010)

Pat this is your baby. But . may I suggest you think about scaling it down a bit . 3/4 scale will reduce total mass and theoretically cost to 42% of the original (3/4)^3 = 27/64 =0.421....   so should reduce the cost to the $30-35 range. 
shipping cost will be reduced as well. 
Tin


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## 1hand (Dec 26, 2010)

Looks simple enough I could participate. Put me on the list. I like the original scale but don't care what scale we build. I would like to do the flywheels and maybe add a little bling to them with holes or spokes on my mill.

Matt


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## cl350rr (Dec 26, 2010)

I probably shouldn'd make the wood base or the spring. I am open to any other parts. I do agree that making it smaller might be a good challenge.

Randel


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## bearcar1 (Dec 26, 2010)

Say Pat, I have a selection of hardwoods that have been sawn and rough sized in the shop that I have had for many, MANY years. Most of it belonged to my Grandfather that made violins. My Father collected some of it as trade for work. I have Walnut, Cherry, Oak and some Hard Maple, even some pieces of Catalpa. I'd like to donate some of this towards the making of the bases if that is acceptable. 
 If I may suggest, we do this model in 1/2 scale, (2" flywheel). That is a good size to work with and isn't too large for some of the smaller machines capacities, although I wouldn't mind the full scale. AFA which part(s) to make, let me check out my metal drawer to see what sizes of what I have available and I'll let you know for certain, the frame and the cylinder looks to be the most 'difficult' of the lot at this time. I'd really like to have a hard look at your prepared drawings before deciding what to do. 

 I'd like to encourage all of those lurking about in the shadows to join in here. These team builds are a perfect opportunity to get the guidance and instruction to overcome ones doubts and fears when it comes to machining parts. I like the idea of these kinds of builds as it allows a person to make one or two pieces and make them well due to having to make several of them in succession. (learning from the difficulties encountered in making the previous one and improving on the next one in the series) It also has the added feature of having other team members to rely upon for assistance/guidance if any questions arise during the course of the build. This vital bit should bring out those that are willing to ask questions without fear of being ridiculed. This doesn't really happen here on HMEM but still the 'fear factor' is still present and by having smaller groups that fear should be greatly reduced. 

C'mon and join us for the adventure, it'll be a fun ride.

BC1
Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 26, 2010)

Friday I ordered 4" rd 6061 from Speedy metals because they had a fire sale on 4" long pieces for $12. I needed one for and up coming Halo build, but as usual I ordered 3. So thats enough for the 5 to 7 flywheels we need for only $3 a piece. 


Is that ok?

Matt


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## cl350rr (Dec 26, 2010)

I have access to brass, aluminum and steel in the sizes needed. 

I also have a reasonably large supply of socket head hardware (black) could put kits together.

Randel


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## cl350rr (Dec 26, 2010)

I will have to check but I believe I can put my hands on enough aluminum to do either the frames, the cylinders or both if need be, but it will take a few days to find out.

I take it those are bronze bearings in the frame?

Randel


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## 1hand (Dec 26, 2010)

Basically all parts would fit in a flat rate envelope, and that is $4.90. We would all be send the same amount of packages. So we can figure about $25 per person for the shipping.

If your parts are small enough to fit in a standard envelope, it may be less $ determined by the weight.

Matt


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## 1hand (Dec 26, 2010)

I will make the fly wheels from what ever material you guys would like. It really doesn't matter to me, so you guys go a head and vote. I don't want to make one if its going to be tossed aside anyway. Better yet, let me know who wants what. The motions will be the same. I also have Two 1" x 4" 12L14 disc's laying here also.

Let me know
Matt


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 26, 2010)

Go Pat and team.
Tin


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## 1hand (Dec 26, 2010)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> If it makes sense, everyone can ship everything to me, and I will separate into (5) packages (+Ken) and ship out.
> 
> Would that make it easier?
> Then you would only have to ship one box of parts to one person.
> ...



Pat,

That makes sense, cause I ship you a flatrate box with my parts for everyone in for $6. Included with my parts is a 6 dollar bill that you will use to return ship the rest of the parts for me when there all done. So for $12 total shipping we all have an engine. It will save us 50% of shipping parts individually to each other.


Matt


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 26, 2010)

Pat...

Heads are good for me 

Will do.

Eric


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 27, 2010)

I can get the cast iron for the cylinder heads. No problem there.

I am fine making 8 parts as well. I wouldn't go far beyond that point...

What is our time line?

Eric


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 27, 2010)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> I would propose finishing up in no longer than 4 weeks.
> Some of the members have a slow time about now at work, so this would be good to take advantage of this opportunity before work gets busy.
> 
> Pat J



I would at least triple that time. We are just the opposite and are busy right now. Plus I have to order the cast iron.


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## cl350rr (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't have access to the metal for the frames and may not get it til after the first of the year. my shop is down until the snow clears and I can assess the damage from tree limbs/water intrusion. I may have to back out of this build and try to get in on one in the spring. Even then when combined with working full time, 4 weeks is a short window, I get 1/2 day/week shop time max this time of year


R


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 27, 2010)

> I would propose finishing up in no longer than 4 weeks.


Easy on the reins Man, the original TB schedule was 3 months we are shooting for two on TB4. 
Easy on the team there.
Tin


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

This is what I came up with for a Flywheel

Yeah or No...... you guys decide.






Matt


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## kjk (Dec 27, 2010)

Very nice. Did you say 12L14 or Aluminum? In 12L14 the mass should make for a very smooth runner.


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

Either or........, but I am concerned about the lack of mass w/aluminium. This is my first engine, and I don't know how much weight it takes to get these things spinning?

Matt


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

1Hand, I would prefer a flywheel of 12L14 please. I do like your creative embellishment to the part. How would/do you plan on getting the lettering on them? 

BC1
Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> 1Hand, I would prefer a flywheel of 12L14 please. I do like your creative embellishment to the part. How would/do you plan on getting the lettering on them?
> 
> BC1
> Jim







Matt


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

DOH! I should have guessed that. :wall: 

BC1
Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

BC1,

Got ya down for the steel flywheel. I'm also going to use steel for mine.


Matt


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

Good goin' there Matt. Have you considered (probably) adding the year "2011" to your logo? Just a thought. I'd love to see that machine of yours in action for real.

BC1
Jim


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

BTW, Pat, and fellow team members, I have perused my hardwood stock and have come up with enough stock for the bases. HOWEVER: six will be in Walnut and two will have to be made from White Oak. (we are making 8 engines correct?) If anyone has a preference, speak up now please and your selection will be noted.

BC1
Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

Too Much?????





Matt


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

Matt, I thought your original design was good, how about that with the date centered up underneath the 'TB5'? Whattya' think?

BC1
Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

Like this Pat?





Pat,

Can I get some of the finish dimensions? Total width, hub width, hub diameter, center hole diameter.

How we attaching? set screw?

I wanta start doing some rough turning 2moro if I could. I'm off the rest of the week.

Are you sure about the aluminium? And if so how many?


Matt


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## 1hand (Dec 27, 2010)

Or this BC1?


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## bearcar1 (Dec 27, 2010)

I like that second example Matt, perhaps a little bit more line separation between TB5 and 2011. I'm beginning to sound like a diva, I know. ;D

Jim


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## 1hand (Dec 28, 2010)

Pat,

Would it be a problem to use the .82 thickness of the hub, for the outer ring thickness? Will this throw off something else? The shafts I have are 4" long, so by the time I make 3 cuts and face both sides, I think I can stay with in the .82.

Matt


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## cl350rr (Dec 28, 2010)

all,

Aluminum frame stock is identified, however... the overall width will be 2.11" vis 2.20... please note for length of shaft. I don't think it will affect anything else.

Matt, steel flywheel if possible

Jim, Wallnut base if possible

Randel


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## cl350rr (Dec 28, 2010)

Pat,
Width,

Randel


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## 1hand (Dec 28, 2010)

Do we want to start a work in progress thread on TB5. I was going to document the steps in building my part.

Just an Idea.


Matt


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 28, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Do we want to start a work in progress thread on TB5. I was going to document the steps in building my part.
> 
> Just an Idea.
> 
> ...



Just do what I did in TB4. Post your pics in this thread. I am hoping that the others will follow suit.


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## bearcar1 (Dec 28, 2010)

Randel, I've got you down for a Walnut. Also, Pat, I may have a lead on a planer I can use so as not to have to ship all this stock out rough. If I can in fact gain access to it I will be able to make the bases here as I had originally hoped to do. I'll let you know for certain when I know for sure. If there are any changes to the dimensions of the bases, please let me know so I can adjust accordingly. Thanks all.

BC1
Jim


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## kjk (Dec 28, 2010)

If it is a problem, I can supply the bases. I am making a set of bases for Pat in any case and I can make them in Cherry, white or red oak, or walnut. There's enough lumber to make bases for everyone in any of the woods. I have all the woodworking toys, so no problem.


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## kjk (Dec 28, 2010)

I'd prefer a steel flywheel if possible.


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## steamer (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Pat,

Just a thought, most dimensional planks of lumber ( from the usual sources anyway...I won't lump in a lumber yard that will plane to any thickness you want) come 3/4 thick (0.75). You could save someone some work with a planer and some money in wood chips if you use stock size....

Just my opinion...worth exactly what you paid for it ;D.

Dave


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## kjk (Dec 28, 2010)

Can't speak for anyone else, but all my wood was purchased rough and I surface it as necessary, so the thickness of the bits can be whatever we need them to be. Over the years I have acquired so much wood that I will never use it up and I'm happy to be sending a little bit of it on a trip around the country. 

As Pat said, the sub base dimension needs to be as specified or perhaps a little thicker or the flywheel will not clear.

Pat: Should the drilling of the bases be left to the person assembling the engine in case they choose to use different hardware?


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## bearcar1 (Dec 28, 2010)

I'll NOT drill any holes in the wooden bases at this time. I can accommodate any requests to do so but will hold off until we get closer to the finish line. I will keep everyone posted of my progress.

BC1
Jim


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## cl350rr (Dec 29, 2010)

Pat J,
thanks for updating the drawings. no xpert on woblers but it seems to me the centerline of the ports in the frame need to line up with the centerline of the crankshaft or the ports will not open evenly on each side of the cycle.

Randel


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## 1hand (Dec 29, 2010)

Here is where I stand will the flywheel.






Set the height of cutter.





Faced one side.





Then turned the inner design. Then flipped in chuck, and repeated the last 2 steps.









Next, center drilled, drilled, and reamed to 0.4375"





Then it was off to the mill. I haven't made a mandrel yet, so it will be back to the lathe to turn the outer diameter, and bevel the edges.





Took about 3 hours to cut the spokes.

Then things took a turn for the worse!




When I went to make a second pass on the lettering, I didn't reset the starting point. I figured It would go back and rerun the program, but it started right from where the first pass end. I hit the estop in time before it started cutting through the hub, so luckily I thought I was in the clear. So I reset the starting point and hit go. It went back to the start, but when I hit the estop earlier, it also reset the tool height. It buried the 1/16" bit into the flywheel and broke it.

This is my first CNC text job, so lesson learned. Go back and check, and recheck everything between passes. Should beable to save the flywheel by taking .025" or so off all the spokes, and start from scratch.

So we are waiting for new 1/16" end mills, and 4" 12L14 disc's to show up in the mail in the next few days.

Matt


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 29, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> When I went to make a second pass on the lettering, I didn't reset the starting point. I figured It would go back and rerun the program, but it started right from where the first pass end.



I'm not sure what happened but as long as X and Y axis were not tampered with in any way or reset to zero, the text should have been overwritten exactly. I'm wondering if the machine was trying to return to 0,0/X,Y and the bit was not high enough to clear the hub. I have done that several times myself. Then when the Estop was hit, everything now would have to be reset.

I'm sure you will figure it out. 

Cheers.


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## 1hand (Dec 29, 2010)

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what happened but as long as X and Y axis were not tampered with in any way or reset to zero, the text should have been overwritten exactly. I'm wondering if the machine was trying to return to 0,0/X,Y and the bit was not high enough to clear the hub. I have done that several times myself. Then when the Estop was hit, everything now would have to be reset.
> 
> I'm sure you will figure it out.
> 
> Cheers.



Steve,

LazyCam didn't recolonize the text from my drawing, so I had to use wizard afterward.

I am using the engraving wizard in Mach 3. When it got done cutting the last M, it just stops there in the rapid height. The gcode that wizard produces, doesn't tell it to go back to zero when its done running. "I should of took that as to the first clue something wasn't right" 

The only reason I wanted to rerun the cut, is that wizard also doesn't allow an entry for a total depth per pass. Just a total depth. So I was going to run it 3 or 4 times at .002, .004, .006, .008 and so on till I got a depth that looked right. Which I was right in thinking cause them 1/16" ends don't take much to break, as I found out. :big:

Enco has them on sale now. Thm: :big:

Matt


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 29, 2010)

If you want to send the DXF file of the flywheel over I can do some Gcode for you so this doesn't happen again. I just need to add the text to your DXF and post the code.


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2010)

Gentlemen,

As we know this project is for us beginners to gain some experience in maching. I'm finding out my machines are lacking heft for this production work on the steel flywheels. I can burn through the aluminium with great easy, and in a relatively timely fashion. When it comes to the steel, even though its "free machining", I have to cut my depth and speed both in half, to prevent the machines from shaking apart. My 3 hour cycle time turns into 10 or more, and still with noises of over load.

I propose to the team: I will still make a steel flywheel if you want, but it will be a standard flywheel without spokes and engraving. The aluminium ones will go along as planned before with the added bling.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience is brings to you, but I need to save my machines for some up coming prosthetic production work I have planned shortly. 

PM me with your thoughts or concerns.

Thanks,
Matt


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## kjk (Dec 31, 2010)

Personal preference for me is a steel or cast iron flywheel (how about depleted Uranium?). I like the extra mass as I prefer these engines to run well at low speeds. Spokes are nice but not essential - a solid flywheel or holes in lieu of spokes works fine for me. Just my $0.02.

Happy New Year to everyone.


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## cl350rr (Dec 31, 2010)

You have stumbled across the reason a few folks, including me, were recommending a downsized version for the team build. 

even in aluminum, the size of the frames is forcing me to use the larger equipment (which is not inside the heated house) and I have spent the past few days working on designs for jigs to complete the work... I don't have a full sized mill and my sherline is not happy about hoggin away nearly 1.5" of anything in a hurry.

I committed, it will get done but as they say... "good, fast, cheap; pick 2".

Randel


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## kjk (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, it's always a matter of choices isn't it. If I were choosing between a full size engine with an Aluminum flywheel and a downsized engine with a steel flywheel, I would opt for the full sized engine with an Aluminum flywheel.

I certainly appreciate that there is a lot of material to shift and Aluminum would certainly lighten the burden.


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## kjk (Dec 31, 2010)

Just an FYI as it is not material to the TB5 builds, but I have completed the base components for the future TB5a and these will ship to Pat next week.


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## bearcar1 (Dec 31, 2010)

Pat, gentlemen

 After careful deliberations and much hand wringing, I must inform you that I am withdrawing from the build. I won't go into any details but I am confident that if you all knew the particulars you would understand. and agree with my decision. (family matters) Pat, I am terribly sorry to have done this to you but you will have to find another source for the wood needed for these bases. Thank you all for your considerations and good luck.

Jim Barker
BC1


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 31, 2010)

Jim-

No problem, I fully understand. Thanks for your participation.

Chuck, we are shifting you into team 5 if you are ready.

What can you build?


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2010)

Jim,
I hope everything is going to be ok for you and your family.

Chuck,
Welcome to the build! Glad to have ya!

TB5 Team,
I'm currently working on a revised Fly Wheel design, and will post a pic as soon as it's done cutting.

Steve,
Thanks a ton for the lettering Gcode. I got anxious waiting for the 1/16" end mills, so I found a 5/16" 45deg drill point end mill I had laying in the drawer, and gave it a go! Looks good.

Matt


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## kjk (Dec 31, 2010)

Matt,

Could you post a video of the engraving process?

Ken


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2010)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> Matt,
> 
> Could you post a video of the engraving process?
> 
> Ken



Sure will.


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## cl350rr (Dec 31, 2010)

Pat,
no prob, will be a while before I am worried about those holes

Randel


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2010)

Fly Wheels Take 2!

















Still working on the video.

What you guys think of the revision?

Matt


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## kjk (Dec 31, 2010)

I like it! Great job.


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## 1hand (Jan 1, 2011)

Pat,

Who has the crank? Maybe we should leave that a little longer, cause I'm not machining the center of the fly wheel down as far now on the revision. That, and the discs I got really vary in width, so it might be better to cut the final length of the crank per mating fly wheel, as they will very from one to the other a bit.

Matt


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## 1hand (Jan 1, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Below is a photo of one of the bases Ken has made, that we are shifting over into TB No. 5.
> 
> Thanks Ken for the nod to my Dad, Bob Jorgensen, who designed Engine No. 21 and built the first one. I know Bob would be very thrilled to see such work. Bob J. absolutely loved to build model steam engines and would appreciate this very much.
> Bob was also in the hardwood lumber business and would love the variety of wood.
> ...



That base is awesome!!! Way to go Ken! th_wav


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## 1hand (Jan 1, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Matt-
> 
> I have material for the crank.
> No problem there.
> ...



I will be reaming them all to 7/16" so that should be fine, just want to make sure the the crank will be long enough to make up for the extra width of the fly wheel.

Matt


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## 1hand (Jan 1, 2011)

aermotor8  said:
			
		

> i would like to do the crankshafts (should i make the shafts 1/2" longer then you can trim to fit the flywheels???)and
> 
> 
> chuck



Chuck that would be great!

You ok with this Flywheel?





Matt


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## steam58 (Jan 1, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Matt-
> 
> I vote go on the flywheel.
> What does everyone else think?
> ...



how about turning a piece of something to put inside the tubing to keep it collapsing


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## 1hand (Jan 1, 2011)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> Matt,
> 
> Could you post a video of the engraving process?
> 
> Ken



My video is floating in Cyber space I think. I will make a different one, when I get to the next flywheel.

My Wisconsin Badgers are playing in the Rose Bowl today!!! Shop is Closed, due to the intoxicants I'll be ingesting today. :big:

Matt


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## kjk (Jan 1, 2011)

Go Badgers!


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 3, 2011)

Here is the beginning of the cylinder lagging, made from 2" brass tube.

I initially tried to part off a piece of this, and ended up snagging it in the lathe, and bending a piece.

I ended up making a mandrel to hold it, which is just a piece of steel sized for the inside diameter of the tube, and slit in the cutoff saw. The inside was drilled out and a 3/4" pipe thread was a added. The mandrel expands on the end when the pipe is screwed in. Not a pretty piece of tooling work, but I did not want to waste a lot of time on something I was not sure would work.

This setup does work, but I would probably make the inside diameter of the mandrel larger and cut it more times. It takes a little more effort to tighten than I would like, but holds the tube well without deformation.

I set the carriage stop for the correct length of the lagging.
The tubing was cut slightly long, faced on one end, de-burred, rotated, and then faced up to the carriage stop position. 

Finish is with fine emory cloth, maybe 600 grit.

You can see the rough mill finish on the tubes on the right.
The lagging piece on the left has a ding in it from the first crash, but since a slot will be cut out of each, then the defect can be omitted.

These can be buffed to a mirror finish if desired.


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## 1hand (Jan 3, 2011)

Looks good Pat! glad the mandrel worked out for ya.

I finished up Fly wheel #3 tonight, and all three are different! I thought #3 was going to be like #2, but something got balled up in the gcode. When I started the program everything was going as planned, so up stairs I went for supper. When I returned, What a surprise! The outside of the spoke design stayed the same, but the center stepped down another .100". So now there is 2 designs in 1. I think its the best looking mistake yet to date!

Well, tomorrow night we see what #4 looks like....... after supper! :big:

Matt


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## kjk (Jan 3, 2011)

Computers. Gotta love 'em.


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## 1hand (Jan 3, 2011)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> Computers. Gotta love 'em.



LOL..... I'm sure it was all operator error. I must of layered it different this time.

Matt


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## kjk (Jan 5, 2011)

I shipped the base components to Pat this afternoon and he should have them in 4-7 days. Bases are in White Oak, Red Oak, Mahogany, and there is one in Walnut with its long edges bound in ebony because the walnut offcut was too narrow. There are engine bearers in Walnut, white oak and cherry. There are extra bases and bearers.

Do we have a final list of who is doing what parts?


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## 1hand (Jan 6, 2011)

Getting closer! Just need to turn the outer and bevel the edges.

Matt


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## kjk (Jan 6, 2011)

Now that's a great group photo!


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## RonGinger (Jan 6, 2011)

Matt, your letters look great. 

I have done several items with letters and I find a common center drill works well as a cutter. they are much stronger than a 1/16" end mill and the V end makes a neat looking carved like letter. 

The only tricky part is the depth of cut- because you are using a V cutter the line width changes a lot with just a little depth change.

For software get DeskEngrave- its free and does good job of letters, both on a line and around a circle. http://www.deskam.com/deskengrave.html


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## 1hand (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks Ron. I kept breaking 1/16" end mills, do to my lack of experience. While waiting for more end mills to show up, I did like you said and tried a 5/16" V pointed end mill, and worked well. I will try the center drill next time. I do like the looks of the V shaped groove verses the standard slot an end mill makes.


Thanks 
Matt


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## Brass_Machine (Jan 6, 2011)

Not yet. Unfortunately had a death in the family and it has put the brakes on a few things. I hope to get the metal in the next few weeks so i can get going on it.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 7, 2011)

Eric- Sorry to hear that.


I started making cylinders tonight, facing them one at a time in the lathe.


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## 1hand (Jan 7, 2011)

Eric,

You have our thoughts and prayers. 

Matt


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 9, 2011)

Cylinders are cut out, sized, and the radius cut on one side.
I will start boring them probably tomorrow.

I made a few extras just in case, since I am still a bit green on the machining thing.


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## 1hand (Jan 9, 2011)

Pat,

That radius turn out real nice! Thm:

I'm getting excited!!!! :big: I can almost hear them purr. 

Matt


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## kjk (Jan 9, 2011)

Lookin' Good Pat.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 9, 2011)

Hello Team 5-

Randel has had to withdraw from the team.



Edit: I ordered steel for the frames this evening, and will start on those as soon as it arrives.


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## 1hand (Jan 9, 2011)

If we can't find anyone, and some one could come up with and ship me the Aluminium I can cut the frames.

I would prefer Aluminium.

Matt


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## chucketn (Jan 9, 2011)

Tried to d/l the pdf of TB5 so I can follow. It won't open for me. Anyone else have this problem?

Chuck in E. TN


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## kjk (Jan 9, 2011)

Great job on those parts.


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## 1hand (Jan 9, 2011)

aermotor8  said:
			
		

> i hope the cranks don't get affected too much as i have them half way done :big:
> 
> i just have to polish them and install the crank pins.
> 
> chuck



WOW!!!!
 th_wav


Nice job!
Matt


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 9, 2011)

Chuck-

Be sure to note the offset distance on the crank pin is 0.816" per the REV 06 drawings.


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## 1hand (Jan 10, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Well, I can see tomorrow has "long day" written all over it.
> 
> Bumper cars anyone?



Looks like a good day to stay home, and make some chips!

Be careful,
Matt


----------



## kjk (Jan 11, 2011)

Looking good Pat.


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## kjk (Jan 11, 2011)

Glad they got there. I never would have thought the box would come apart with the amount of tape I wrapped around it. Next time I'll double box the shipment.


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## 1hand (Jan 11, 2011)

Them bases are really, really nice Ken! 

Nice job!
Matt


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## Brass_Machine (Jan 12, 2011)

Nice work on the bases!

Any is fine with me (I like the darker wood on top... :big: )

Eric


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## steamer (Jan 12, 2011)

This all seems to be "chugging" a long nicely! ;D

....sorry couldn't resist


Nice build guys!.....keep it up!

Dave


----------



## kjk (Jan 12, 2011)

Those flywheels look great!


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 13, 2011)

How is the shipping working out? Are we sending everything to you?

Eric


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## Brass_Machine (Jan 13, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Pat J



Very good.

Eric


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 14, 2011)

Ordered the cast iron for the heads today. Hope to have it soon.

Eric


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## 1hand (Jan 14, 2011)

Brass_Machine  said:
			
		

> Ordered the cast iron for the heads today. Hope to have it soon.
> 
> Eric



Few pics when ya get started, would be cool. I would like see how your tackling them.

Matt


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## Brass_Machine (Jan 19, 2011)

Material should be here tomorrow. Hopefully I will get some done this weekend.


----------



## kjk (Jan 19, 2011)

What parts did you decide to do Eric?


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 19, 2011)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> What parts did you decide to do Eric?



I am doing the heads.

Need to check my stash to see if I have brass for the bushings.


----------



## kjk (Jan 19, 2011)

Great. Let us know if you have the brass and are doing the bushings as well. If you don't, someone else may volunteer.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jan 20, 2011)

The frames are progressing nicely.
Still have to drill and cut the second side, and make the outer bearing support.

And no broken milling bits (knock on wood) so far.

I have gotten better about trimming the pieces close to final size in the cutoff saw, and then making one or two light cuts with the mill to final size. There is an art to rough cutting and leaving just enough to finish off to final size.
I use to try and cut way too much in the milling machine, and the lathe too for that matter.

The angle for the frames is a good grade of mild steel, and very nice to cut.
Some steel can be on the tough side, depending on exactly what grade you get.

The method I am using is laying out holes where the radius in the frame are, and then drilling hole with a pilot and then a 1" drill bit. You need lots of cutting oil on those drill bits, and lots of ventilation, since the cutting oil lays out clouds of smoke.

One the holes are drilled, it is back to the cutoff saw to cut up to the edge of the holes, leaving a little extra. You have to hand-guide the cuttoff saw just before it breaks through to the edge of the round hole, else the blade will hit the side of the round hole and jam.

Then on to the mill, where the edges get cleaned up with a large long straight bit.

A little bit of de-burring is required between steps, with a file, to keep the razor sharp edged down to a minimum.


----------



## kjk (Jan 20, 2011)

Lookin' good Pat.


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## Brass_Machine (Jan 20, 2011)

On the bushings... I see they are to be reamed after they are in place on the frame. Since one of them requires an expensive piece of brass (.75") and the reaming requirements... maybe each builder should be responsible for their own bushings.

Thoughts?


----------



## kjk (Jan 20, 2011)

I've suggested to Pat that the bushings be drilled (more under size than normal) and not reamed. Pat can install them in the frames, drill them in line and ream them, or the builder could do that.

Did you find the brass in the scrap box Eric?


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 20, 2011)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> ...
> Did you find the brass in the scrap box Eric?



Not that much brass.


----------



## kjk (Jan 20, 2011)

OK - I got the bushings. I'll drill them under but won't ream.


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## kjk (Jan 20, 2011)

I have the brass Pat - no problem. I got some CNC ends that will work.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 20, 2011)

I have enough to do the smaller bushing and the exhaust pipe. 

What other parts are missing? Who is doing what now?


----------



## kjk (Jan 20, 2011)

No one has claimed the springs.

> I think each builder should supply their own spring.

I assume everyone has some packing material for the rod.

>probably correct

I will probably do the pistons and rings.

> for a good piston to cylinder fit, that's probably essential

You guys want turned rings?

> or o-rings maybe?

Is everyone going to paint their own frame/cylinder?

> Sounds like the way to go


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 20, 2011)

The minor stuff can be left to each build such as paint etc. I may not want mine painted the same color. :big:


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 22, 2011)

The frame is starting to look like a frame.

Note: You need a large wrench or clamp on the frame to keep it from automatically rotating into the bit when you are making the round part in the mill. Don't try and hold the piece in your hand, you cannot.

Also, you have to rotate the work into the bit, ie: looking down on the mill table, if the milling bit is rotating clockwise, the piece has to be rotated clockwise also, or else the bit will ride into the work, and again, probably break the bit.

Luckily I had read about this previously or I would have broken off the bit.


----------



## kjk (Jan 22, 2011)

Nicely Done Pat.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jan 25, 2011)

Outboard bearing supports.

Anyone else making progress?


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 25, 2011)

Got the stock. Haven't had a chance to start yet.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 25, 2011)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> I had a teacher who use to assign long-term projects, and each month, he would ask members in the class about their progress.
> Inevitably, he would get to me, and I would sheepishly have to admit I had not started on the project.
> 
> Finally, he made the statement that has stuck with me, although I still tend to procrastinate the same way.
> ...



Fortunately, this isn't school or I would be in trouble. ;D My issue isn't getting started as it is having time. If we are in a major rush, I can step down from this build and let someone who has more time than me in.

Eric


----------



## kjk (Jan 25, 2011)

Only speaking for myself, but I have plenty of other projects on the go and I'm not in a hurry. As long a everyone is committed and all the parts are assigned, I'm a happy camper.

At the moment I'm waiting on some tooling, but I should have that in a few days and will be doing the conrod parts.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jan 25, 2011)

Eric-

I would hope we could wrap it up in no more than 6 weeks from today. Beyond that, I would think we are going to loose momentum if we string it out too long.

I still have plenty to do for sure, so I think you have plenty of time.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jan 25, 2011)

I am looking at taking a few days off from work some time in Feb. I will be starting on my parts soon. The days off will allow me to finish up ;D

Eric


----------



## kjk (Jan 25, 2011)

Here's my prototype conrod. I made it to check out the operations I need to do and make sure I get it right when I make the "production" run.







If my new parting tool holder turns up by Friday, I'll be making these for real on the weekend.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jan 26, 2011)

Finally finished drilling holes tonight.
30-1" holes through 1/2" plate. 

I made a jig held in the vice in the mill to round off the outer bearing supports.
Not rigid enough, and I munched an outer bearing support, but did not damage the bit.

I changed to a bolt mounted in the 8" 3-jaw chuck mounted on the rotary table.
That worked like a charm. Much more rigid. You really don't want to try and round off 1/2" plate with something not rigid.

Below are the frames with all holes drilled.
Now on to the final metal band sawing of these frames, and they will be close to done except for the ports and passages.


----------



## 1hand (Jan 26, 2011)

Ken and Pat,

Looks like your parts are coming along nicely. 

I was going to order some parkerizing concentrate for the steel parts, but I was reading that it is real temperature sensitive. I'm worried about it freezing while its shipped. 


Matt


----------



## Brass_Machine (Feb 1, 2011)

I broke my mill (see the TB4 thread)... Hope to find out the cause and get it fixed soon. I did schedule a few days off form work this month to work on this build.


----------



## kjk (Feb 3, 2011)

That's it for me.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Feb 3, 2011)

Parts look good!

Eric


----------



## 1hand (Feb 11, 2011)

Finished parts pics here

https://sites.google.com/site/midweststeamengines/tb-5


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 14, 2011)

Still working on frames, but making progress.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Feb 15, 2011)

Going to start my parts this weekend.

Eric


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 15, 2011)

Exhaust and frame photo details.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Feb 15, 2011)

Very good. What is the threading on the frame? Have you done that yet on the build?

Eric


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## JorgensenSteam (Feb 15, 2011)

The hole in the frame for the exhaust pipe is a tap drill "Q" (0.3320"), and has been drilled but not taped.
The tap for this hole is a 1/8-NPT-27, which appears to match the treads found on some standard brass fittings.
I will have to check the thread on the end of the exhaust pipe, but it is a straight thread.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 15, 2011)

Exhaust parts photo.
The elbow looks like some kind of store-bought brass fitting.

The pipe is hand made.

The pipe has a 24 TPI straight thread on it, and the threaded part measures 0.368" in diameter.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Feb 18, 2011)

Understood Pat.


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## JorgensenSteam (Feb 21, 2011)

TB5 - Resurrected-

I am still working on TB5, trying to pull this one off.
Maybe we can Heimlich this one back to life.  


Here are photos from yesterday and today:


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 21, 2011)

More photos from yesterday and today:

The outside rim of all the flywheels were turned on a mandrel.
Matt was dead-on with his CNC, so just a light face-off.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 21, 2011)

Gaskets and gasket cutters.
Frame outer bearing support being silver soldered together.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Feb 21, 2011)

Mock-up assembly:

The piston looks great with Ken's stainless rod and brass rod end.

The ring gap on the piston ring closes down to a few thousands when installed in the bore.

Starting to look like an engine (Steam that is!).


----------



## 1hand (Feb 21, 2011)

Nice Job guys Thm:


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## JorgensenSteam (Feb 25, 2011)

Bearings pressed into frame.


----------



## steamer (Feb 25, 2011)

Sure looks good from here Pat!

Dave


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks Dave.

Here are photos of the crank disk constrution:


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 2, 2011)

And here are some photos of the frame being squared.

It is really important to get everything as square as possible, and machine as many surfaces as possible without changing the position of the frame in the vice.

I faced surfaces in this order: bottom, top, right side, end edges, top edges, cutout edges. 

Even though a piece of steel angle has a factory 90 degree bend in it, this shape is not nearly accurate enough to use for an engine, and all the sides have to be accurately faces flat, parallel and perpendicular to each other.

Once the outer bearing support has been silver soldered on, the holes for the main bearings should be drilled/milled with the frame bolted onto the mill table with the port face down. The crankshaft has to be exactly perpendicular to the port face of the frame.

A shallow recess was milled for the outer bearing to help align it, and a round spacer was clamped between the two crankshaft supports prior to silver soldering to get the bearing supports exactly parallel.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Mar 8, 2011)

I may end up having to bow out of this build. Some personal and financial issues have arisen that are making this difficult. I had hoped to start my parts over a month ago... now it looks like it will be at least 4 to 6 weeks before I can start.

Is there any member that is not involved with this build that wants to be? Someone that can take my place?

Eric


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Mar 8, 2011)

Eric-

I know the feeling all to well, and can cetainly relate.
The economy is the pits right now.

We will work it out, we are doing ok on the build, a little slow maybe, but we will make it. It is a trial and error thing for me, with much trial and a lot of errors, but we are getting there.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Mar 8, 2011)

Hello all- First post here. 
I'd like to offer my help on this build since Eric had to bow out. What parts would I have to make?
I can start them within a few days. 
Mike


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Mar 9, 2011)

Hello Mike-
Welcome to the forum. Glad to have you.

Eric had cylinder heads.

I will have to send you the latest drawing set.
I can't get it loaded here due to size restrictions.
We are still tweeking the drawings, but they should be close.

Let me know if you have questions.

We need six sets.
Gray cast iron.

Are you up to it skill/equipment/material/money wise.
Our skill level varies among members, from advanced, to new people like myself.
This is intended to be an intermediate level build.

If you ship parts to me, I will distribute from here to all the team members.
Are you in the US or nearby?

Pat J

Chuck had cranks, crank disks and gland nuts.
Chuck, you still out there?


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Mar 9, 2011)

Mike-

Here is the status of the Team Build No.5 parts as of today (03-09-11).

PatJ

We have the following parts (per engine):


Base (2 pieces, hardwood) - Ken (status - complete)
Bearings - main crankshaft (2, brass) - PatJ (status - started, not complete)
Bearing - cylinder pivot (1, brass) - PatJ (status - started, not complete)

Crankshaft (1, stainless or mild steel) - Chuck (status unknown)
Crank disk (1, gray cast iron) - Chuck (status unknown)
Crank pin (1, steel or stainless) - Chuck (status unknown)
Cylinder head - upper (1, gray cast iron) - Mike? (status - not started)
Cylinder head - lower (1, gray cast iron) - Mike? (status - not started)
Cylinder pivot bolt with nut - (1, steel or stainless) - Ken (status - complete)
Cylinder tension spring with nut - (1, steel) - (Each person provides their own)
Cylinder head screws (8, stainless) - PatJ (status - complete)

Exhaust pipe (1, brass) - (not assigned)
Exhaust fitting (1, brass, store bought) - (not assigned)

Flywheel (1, steel or aluminum) - Matt (status - complete)
Frame (1, steel) - PatJ (all started)

Gland nut (1, brass) - Chuck (status unknown)

Lagging (1, brass) - PatJ (status - complete)

Packing material for gland (1, standard material) - (Each person provides their own)

Piston (1, gray cast iron) - PatJ (all started, 1 complete)
Piston ring (1, gray cast iron) - PatJ (all started, 1 complete)
Piston rod with nut(1, steel or stainless) - Ken (status - complete)

Rod end (1, brass) - Ken (status - complete)
Screws (to secure frame to wood base) (3, steel) - (Each person provides their own)


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 9, 2011)

We hope to hear from Chuck soon, and pull this all together.

Chuck, please let us know as soon as you can where you stand.

Thanks very much.

Pat J


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## maverick (Mar 9, 2011)

I notice the exhaust pipe and fittings are not assigned. I can do those if you'd like. Should be able to finish them before
the cast iron arrives.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Mar 9, 2011)

maverick  said:
			
		

> I notice the exhaust pipe and fittings are not assigned. I can do those if you'd like. Should be able to finish them before
> the cast iron arrives.



I was going to work on those as well.

Thanks for jumping in Mike


----------



## AMS (Mar 10, 2011)

Hi guys,

I'm pretty new here, been following your build for quite sometime. I would like to offer my help if its needed if not I will look forward to the next group project that starts up.

Andy


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Mar 10, 2011)

Andy-

Welcome to HMEM.
We are in the final stages of Team Build No.5.

I will be posting the "as-built" TB5 engine drawings on this site as soon as we have built at least one engine from them, and verified that they are correct.

I am sure the TB5 guys would be happy to guide you through building the engine if you choose to build one yourself.

I can certainly tell you what not to do.

Thanks for checking in.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Mar 16, 2011)

Finished with the exhaust pipe and fitting. Starting on the heads next.


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## kjk (Mar 16, 2011)

Excellent - how about a picture?


----------



## maverick (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok guys, here's what the exhaust pipes looked like before a bit of cleaning up.
Now off to the heads.


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## 1hand (Mar 17, 2011)

Cool beans Man!! Look great!

Matt


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 17, 2011)

Nice job Maverick-

Looks good.

Pat J


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## kjk (Mar 17, 2011)

yes wonderful - I think I'll contract out all fiddly bits to Maverick.


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## kjk (Mar 21, 2011)

Works for me Chuck. Nice to have you back.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Mar 21, 2011)

Welcome Chuck, we knew you would come up for air at some point in time.

We would be most happy to get your parts.

We have a new team member, and he seems to be doing well with his parts.

I am still working on my parts, but I think I am closing in on some good final parts.

If my assembly goes well in the next day or so, then I will have all the techniques down, and can wrap it up.

I have had to make a lot of jigs to hold everything square, and get the round parts machined correctly for the frame.

I hope to have a second frame done in a few days, and with the jigs I have, the other frames should go more quickly.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 4, 2011)

I finally have some shop time of my own and am working on the heads. Maybe some pictures this afternoon.

Pat- Once the heads are done I may have time to help on remaining parts or ?
Just let me know.

Mike


----------



## kjk (Apr 4, 2011)

Good News Mike. We'll be assembling these engines before you know it.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks Mike-

We will have to decide on what to do about the parts that are left.
The main items remaining are the ones by Chuck, and he started them, but I am not sure where he stands on them.
Chuck, you able to wrap up your parts?

If we don't hear back from Chuck by Friday (4-4-11), we will reassign parts and finish this thing up.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 5, 2011)

Here's what I have on the heads so far. I'm sure Chuck will pop up any time now.






By mikeatmaverick at 2011-04-05


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 5, 2011)

Maverick-

Those heads look great.
Keep up the good work.

We will finish this team built soon.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 5, 2011)

The embellishment on the face of the head needed a form tool made, so here it is.





By mikeatmaverick at 2011-04-05

Chucked up close so there's no chatter.




By mikeatmaverick at 2011-04-05

Finished part.





By mikeatmaverick at 2011-04-05


----------



## kjk (Apr 5, 2011)

Looks Great Mike!


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 5, 2011)

Mike-

Those heads look great.
I never would have thought of using a form tool.

Pat J


----------



## kjk (Apr 5, 2011)

Glad the smoke has finally cleared Chuck. Whatever it is you do at work, I'm glad your part of the economy is booming.

We'll have these engines running soon.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 5, 2011)

If I get Chuck's parts, I am going to fall down and kiss the ground.

Pat J


----------



## kjk (Apr 6, 2011)

I want to see that too. At least there's grass in Memphis - I still have ice and snow.

I'm getting excited - we'll be building soon!


----------



## Tin Falcon (Apr 6, 2011)

Team builds can be a long bumpy ride but are worth it the key is hanging together and pushing forward to the end. sounds like things are coming together. Good work all. 
Tin


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 6, 2011)

I will have to pick a clean spot so I don't get dirty lips.  ;D

Pat J


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 8, 2011)

Chucks parts arrived today!!!!   :bow: :bow:

Thanks Chuck, they look great, well done.

Ok, I am off to take some photos and to do some ground kissing.

Pat J


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 8, 2011)

Well, I hate to tell everyone, but I am a beginner machinist, and I got into this team build thing to learn how to machine, so you guys will get what you get, but I did do my very best.

I have gone to great lengths to learn and do it right, and have had to relegate one engine to the scrap heap so far (it will make a nice static display), but I will get the others right.

The second engine has been machined with great care, and the assembly went together much better, and appears to rotate with no probems at all other than the fact that it is tight and needs to wear in. I wanted things slighly on the tight side so that after break-in, it should be just right.

Of the many things I have learned on this team build, you cannot rush a machining job, errors propogate and get magnified by the movement of the parts, and an error of one thousanths of an inch can become like the Grand Canyon on the other side of a part if you are not really careful.

I have had to learn how to work at a whole new level of detail, and take it slow, and think everything through. I have heard others mention getting a good surface for a starting point, and very carefully working out from that surface.
I can now say from experience that you have to be extremely meticulous with every single step, and it is very difficult to machine your way out of problems cause by lack of concentration and lack of attention to details.

Machining is not for the impatient types.

I have been very pleased with the level of work I have seen from all the team members so far, and I can say I have had to work hard to keep up with the standard of quality these guys are setting
I have learned a tremendous amount this year alone.

My goal for this team build was to advance from a beginner to an intermediate level machinist, and I can say for myself and for this purpose, this team build has been a resounding success. I have mastered a large number of good engine building techiniques on this build, and those techniques can be used from this point forward to construct a much more complex engine.

Machining is a lot more fun and a whole lot faster when you can choose from a large list of tried, proven, and previously mastered techniques.
Thanks to all who have the patience and kindness to share their knowledge on this forum and guide folks like myself who are struggling along and trying to learn.

On average, I fail at the first two attempts at making any first time part, and get the third attempt right.
Occasionally, I have needed four or five attempts at a part.
Unfortunately, I have to do my machining when I can find the time, which is usually late at night and when I am not exactly in a fresh state of mind.

Someone asked me the other day how the team build was going, and I responded "Fine, but all those trivial matters keep getting in my way and delaying the effort.".
"What trivial matters are causing you problems?" they said. "Oh you know, eating, sleeping, unimportant things like that" I said.

Here are Chuck's parts. I think they look terrific. Well done Chuck.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 9, 2011)

Chuck- The parts look great. Looks like you made me tail end charlie.

Pat- Hows that ground taste?

Now on to serious business. I'm on the home stretch on these heads and all that's left is to bore
to the tap drill size, tap and chamfer. I may have to modify my tap to get the threads deep
enough. Hopefully I'll get them shipped monday.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 9, 2011)

Dirt is pretty good, but better with a little catsup or mustard.

I guess I will be the last hold out.

I have to assemble the various parts to make sure they will fit and screw together.

I will wait to get the heads before I drill the holes in the cylinders for the head bolts.

I still have some work to do, but I will get moving on it again.
I think with the parts in hand, the fitting will go somewhat quickly.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 10, 2011)

Pat- The heads and exhaust pipes are on the way. Let me know if I can help in any way.

 Mike


----------



## kjk (Apr 10, 2011)

Well done Mike.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks a bunch Mike, I will be looking for them.

Pat J


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 14, 2011)

I received Mike's parts this afternoon.

Boy is this guy good. Each part in an individual plastic package, and the cast iron parts all oiled.

I am not sure what the stuff is that smells like shoe polish, or what the reams are for.

I will get some photos up tonight, and check to see if the parts from the various team members fit together. I tried one of Chuck's gland nuts in Mike's lower cylinder head, and the fit was perfect, so I have high hopes.

Photos at 10:00.

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 14, 2011)

Pat, the reamers and tool wrap are from an auction lot, I got too many so divide them up amongst the group.

Mike


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok, here are some photos of Mikes parts.
I am going to have to work really hard to keep up with the quality level you guys work to.

I put Chuck's gland nut on Mike's head, and it looks great (and fits too!).

I will try and do a little assembly with the various parts tomorrow and get more photos.

I must say it is looking very good for TB5.
I will have to get busy now and finish up my parts.

Great job Mike, very impressive work.
(And thanks for the tool wrap, reamers, etc., I will distribute. What is the shoe polish smelling stuff? I should probably know that.)

Pat J


----------



## maverick (Apr 15, 2011)

Pat,
Glad you liked the parts. Your frames are looking good and will show up quite well against the rest of the parts.
I received some steel parts from a customer that needed modified, these were likely sitting 
on his shelf for a while and were a bit rusty. I must have had them in mind when I sprayed penetrating oil on the heads,
that's what the smell was. Sorry about that. Anyway let me know if I can help on any thing else and I look forward
to seeing the engines.
Mike


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Apr 22, 2011)

I had to clean out a space in my shop, which is a garage still half full of garage stuff.
I set up a table, and have started laying out some of the parts.

This is just some of the parts, I have other parts in various boxes that I will bring downstairs tommorrow, and begin the big sort out/fit up/assembly.

At least I was able to make some modest progress towards final assembly tonight.
Lots going on right now, but I will work on this a little every night so I can get it done.

Pat J

Edit: Two engines are shown partially assembled in the first photo below. The first one on the left turned up not having square enough surfaces, and so it will probably be a static display, although I may be able to patch it up with some work.

All the remaining frames were carefully milled on all sides, and working from one surface carefully to get all the other surfaces parallel/perpendicular/square. I also very carefully reamed the crank bearings with the frame square in the mill, and the ream in the chuck in the mill, and that got the crank lined up correctly with the frame and cylinder, and perpendicular to the cylinder/port face.

The second frame shown on the right is with a milled frame, Chuck's crankshaft, crank pin, and gland nut, Ken's rod and rod end, and Mike's heads, and when I matched those up with Matt's flywheel, everything appeared to be dead on, with no wobble or misalignment apparent anywhere, so now it is must a matter of finishing the frame work, and assembling the remaining engines to make sure everything fits.


----------



## kjk (Apr 22, 2011)

Looking great Pat. Can't wait to put one together.


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## maverick (Apr 22, 2011)

That's some very nice looking work there Pat. I'm already picking out a color. By the way, I counted 8 cylinders and frames. 
In addition to the 7 sets of heads I sent you, I have 1 more set here. So if your so inclined, you could build another engine for
sale, display or a gift. Maybe the Smithsonian, I heard they have some nice stuff there.


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## JorgensenSteam (Apr 22, 2011)

Thanks Mike-

I am not sure the Smithsonian is quite ready for my work, but we can always wish for things I guess.

The allocation as of today is as follows:

1-Ken
2-Matt
3-Pat
4-Chuck
5-Mike
6-HMEM Auction
7-Rick (for the work he does for this forum)

I actually cut out 10 cylinders, frames, pistons and lagging, since I knew I would botch at least one, maybe more.
So far, the only botch has been the first frame and cylinder, and I think I can salvage it (I won't send that one out).

It is much easier to make a few extras while you have the setup, and then if something slips during the last machining operation, you have some backup parts.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2011)

I have not been able to make much progress on TB5, but have not forgotten about it.
I have a "to-do" list for the project, and a plan of action, I just need to get to it and get it done.

My appologies for the delay.

Pat J


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## maverick (May 10, 2011)

No sweat Pat, I imagine you're having a tough enough time just keeping your feet dry.

Mike


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## JorgensenSteam (May 11, 2011)

The River has been a distraction, I have been down there several times in the last week taking photos.
I hate to miss out on a near 100 year flood.
The record was set in 1937 at 48.7 feet, and we are at 48 feet.

It is quite an impressive site to see the towboats gliding by with their hulls at eye level, and the pilot house towering several stories above street level.

The good news is that the floodwalls and levees that were installed in 1937 are working beautifully (so far), and although some 15,000 houses have been flooded, without those floodwalls we could have had perhaps something on the order of magnitude of 500,000 homes or more flooded.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Jun 20, 2011)

Still here.
I will send out parts no later than the end of this month.

Pat J


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## DTANNER (Jun 24, 2011)

Gentlemen and/or Ladies,

What ind of engine are you making. I tired to find the original post but was unsucessful. I would also like to be pat of your next TB when you gt to it.

TY
 ;D


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## dsquire (Jun 24, 2011)

Gentleman

Does anyone have a copy of the drawing for this engine that can be posted here or a link to it? It seems as though the original was removed for whatever reason. We have many new members that are trying to follow along with this build and lack of a drawing makes it very difficult. If anyone can help out with this request it would be much appreciated. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (Jun 26, 2011)

Don-

I pulled the drawing off because I had to make some changes to some of the dimensions. I need to go through the drawings again and make sure all the numbers add up correctly.
I will try and get the revised drawings in the download section tomorrow.

I completed the assembly of Woodguy's engine tonight, and everything looks good.

I have to trim the lagging to exact size, and I think that will be it for the first engine completed.
I will send it off to Ken this coming week, and he can try the first run.

I will get Matt's, Chuck's and Mike's done soon, and TB5 will be a wrap.

Pat J


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## dsquire (Jun 26, 2011)

BigOnSteam  said:
			
		

> Don-
> 
> I pulled the drawing off because I had to make some changes to some of the dimensions. I need to go through the drawings again and make sure all the numbers add up correctly.
> I will try and get the revised drawings in the download section tomorrow.
> ...



Thanks Pat. I'll be watching for it. 

Cheers 

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (Jun 27, 2011)

DTanner-

This is an oscillating steam engine that my Dad originally designed and built a few years ago. I call it his "No.21".

These drawings are new, so please check all of the dimensions.
Also, note that I can do CAD and many other things, but am not the machinist that you see on many of these great posts, so use common sense and good machining judgement if you use these drawings.

I will not be able to do another team build, but don't let that stop you from making one of these engines.

I like this engine because it looks good (in my humble opinion), and is a nice size, but not too large.

Don-

I tried uploading the drawings to this site, but I keep getting a "timeout or file too large" error. I will put them at the location shown below, and if someone from HMEM can get them uploaded here, then they are welcome to do that.

TB5 final drawings are here:
http://www.classicsteamengineering.com/index.php?topic=389.msg1598;topicseen#msg1598

Here is a photo of Bob J's original No.21:


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## kjk (Jul 9, 2011)

Well here it is. I apologize for the hasty presentation but I wanted to get this post up before I head off to the UK on a boat buying expedition and time is short just now. I decided on the paint scheme based on what was in the cupboard but I think it has worked out fairly well. The base is temporary - I have in mind something made from a nice piece of claro walnut that is lurking on the rack.

Not having time to turn up an intake fitting, I just clamped the base to my saw table, hooked up air to the exhaust and off she went. It's not run in yet, but it runs a treat all the same. Thanks to Pat for the drawings and the idea. Bob J certainly got this one right.

The short proof of life video is here. I will post another when I get back from the UK.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Reo0I_tGFs&feature=player_embedded[/ame]


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## JorgensenSteam (Jul 9, 2011)

Good job Woodguy. Looks like it runs great.

I am wrapping up the remaining engines, and will have those sent out soon.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey Chuck-

I am still hanging in on TB5.
I have had some issues that I have had to deal with recently that have delayed me, but I have been able to get back on TB5 in the last few days, and have worked on it consistly for the last few days.

I find it is best to work on a build a hour or so each day, so you don't get burnt out.

All of the cylinders will be complete today.
The frames have the passages drilled and tapped, and the ports and shafts laid out and punched.
I still have a little more silver soldering to do, need to pick up another oxygen tank, I am out.

After that, it is just a little piston work, and it will be a wrap.
I don't have anything coming up on my schedule, so I will keep at it till its done.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 16, 2011)

Silver soldered some frames tonight, more frame silver soldering tomorrow.
Making progress.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 17, 2011)

More progress today, fitting heads to cylinders.
If I can stay on the build for another week or so, I should have them all done.


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## maverick (Aug 17, 2011)

Sounds like progress to me Pat. I've got a few more summer projects to do and maybe
a new team build so no hurry on my part.

Regards,
Mike


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 17, 2011)

Drilling and milling frames today.


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 22, 2011)

All the cylinders are complete.
Still drilling and milling frames.


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## 1hand (Aug 22, 2011)

Karma for ya Ken. Nice runner!!

Matt


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## JorgensenSteam (Aug 27, 2011)

Still working on the frames, but continuing like the Energizer Bunny.
Seems like this build is going on forever, but life keeps getting in the way.

Will be working on TB5 all this coming week.

Pat J


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## maverick (Aug 27, 2011)

Pat,
I know what you mean about life getting in the way. If there's anything I can help with, just holler.

Regards,
Mike


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 6, 2011)

TB5 has been delayed this year for a number of reasons, but I am going to get back into it, and started tonight trying to remember what I did so far on the project.

When TB5 began, I had just started using 3D modeling, and I was pretty clueless about how to use it. Having used it for some notable design work since then, I have found that it is an excellent way to virtually machine an engine without having to actually cut metal, and a good way to practice (or remember) all the steps in building an engine. I wonder now how I ever use to get designs done in 2D (the answer is slowly and not very well).

Anyway, here are the 3D parts that I made tonight.
I will finish the other 3D parts tomorrow, assemble the engine in 3D and run it to look for interferences.

I have all the parts laid out and sorted on a table in the shop, so I should be ready to start on TB5 again tomorrow.

Sorry for the delay.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 6, 2011)

More screen shots:


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 6, 2011)

More screen shots:


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 6, 2011)

More screen shots:


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 6, 2011)

More screen shots:


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 7, 2011)

I made a spreadsheet of the machining steps required for each part, and am checking those off as I go, to figure out what is left to do.

I made some more 3D parts today, not quite done with that.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 7, 2011)

More screen clips.


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 7, 2011)

More screen clips:


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 7, 2011)

A few more screen clips:


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## bearcar1 (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd like to see some more of the real thing Pat. Any idea on a time frame when that will be? It really doesn't seem like almost an entire year has gone by already, my how time flies. 

BC1
Jim


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 7, 2011)

Yes, it has been one of those years for me, and I have been pursuing setting up a casting kit business since my other business has not earned any money this year.

It is a bit dicey to go a year without income, but I am sure more than a few here are experiencing the same thing. I think I finally have an upcoming project, so maybe a little cash flow in 2012.

I really have to catch up with TB5 using the 3D modeling since it has been so long since I worked on the TB5 engines, and I have to remember what I was doing, and figure out where I left off.

Maybe I can get out to the shop and get a little done tonight.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 9, 2011)

I got my list straightened out for which engine needs what maching done, and who gets what parts.

I also got the 3D model complete, and that was a good refresher.

Maybe I can start making some real chips tomorrow.
(Edit: Virtual chips are much easier to clean up.   )

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 9, 2011)

And the exploded view.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 11, 2011)

Finished silver soldering the remaining frames tonight (yes, I got some actual work done on TB5, don't faint).

The new torch works much better than the old one.

Now it is just a matter of machining work.

You can buy an entire torch kit with two regulators, hose, handle, tips, cutting attachment, etc. cheaper than you can by a replacement handle.

Pat J


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## Path (Dec 12, 2011)

Nice 3D models.  

What program are you using?

Pat H (TB 4 & 6)


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 12, 2011)

I am using 2011 Solidworks.
I needed to convert from 2D to 3D at work, and so decided to use the same program for model engine design.

I have seen similar results with Alibre, and I would have gone with Alibre if I did not also need the program for work.

It took me forever to rewire my thought process from 2D drawings to 3D modeling, but as others predicted, once you learn 3D, it is much easier from many standpoints than 2D, and 3D is especially useful once you start making changes after the engine is almost complete.

I look back now and wonder how I use to do engine designs in 2D (very slowly).

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 14, 2012)

I was able to get one engine completed for TB5, and it turned out ok, but then in December, as I started working on the remaining engines, I started having all sorts of issues with the frames, and problems with the hole through the crankshaft supports not being aligned properly, and the supports themselves not coming out the same size.

The cylinders look ok, and they are complete, but I am really unhappy with how the frames look, and so have been sitting on the TB5 build, trying to figure out what to do.

I decided to set up for castings last year, and have been building a furnace, which is a work in progress, but is functioning for the first time this week.

I have been trying to duplicate what others on the internet have done, which is to melt gray cast iron and pour it in the back yard. After much research on the net, and a whole lot of head scratching, I attempted a cast iron pour today.
I did not get the cast iron to melt, but it got very hot. I was afraid of melting my camera lens, and so the picture below is sort of a miss.

The problem was as others had told me, which is that it is difficult to keep the pressure up on the propane tank during heavy usage. I ended up wrapping heat trace cable around the propane tank, but that did not help, so I will have to go to plan "B" on that (not sure what plan "B" is yet).

Anyway, it struck me the other day that maybe I need to cast the TB5 frames and try again with those. At least I could maintain an accurate shape on both crankshaft supports, and would just need to drill an accurate hole through both for the crankshaft. So maybe I will try casting the TB5 frames. The other ones are just not something I want to send out.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 14, 2012)

A friend brought me some aluminum rims, and so I made a large ingot mold, and decided to try and melt rims.

As has happened so often in the past when I have tried to use scrap metal, I ended up spending 10 times more trying to use scrap than if I just purchased new material.

Some may have access to a lot of good scrap though, and if done right, it could be a viable source. The asbestos needs to be power washed off the old rims before they are melted, and all the lead weights removed, as well as the stem.

Problems I had were oxidation of the metal because I directed the burner directly onto the rim (not a good idea), and I miscalcuated the volume of the ingot mold, and so the metal overflowed into one big mass.  
If I tried to melt rims again (which I will not), I would place the torch under the ingot mold, and away from the rim. I used a quicky furnace around the rim, which was made up of some fire bricks and a tent of ceramic blanket (sort of a makeshift afair at best).

I think most aluminum rims are either painted or clear coated, and it looked like this added a lot of trash into the melt, which is not good at all.

In the future, I will just use the AL356 from Budget Castings (California supply house).
It is very clean, and for the last melt using 356, I did not use flux or degasser, and did not even skim the slag, and I got a perfect pour, and a far better pour than when I prevously used degasser, flux, and then skimmed the slag, melting a glove in the process of skimming. Go figure.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 17, 2012)

I started to make a wood pattern for the new frames last night.

It was late, and I was tired, and so it went great until I glued the centerpiece in backwards, and it went downhill from there.

I generally make patterns with balsa and superglue, since you can build continuously and you don't have to wait for the glue to dry. Balsa is easy to sand and carve, and you can repair mistakes if necessary.

Having botched the wood pattern, I decided to just print a pattern, and so I printed the blue pattern shown below.

If the rain stops, I will get out the green sand and try pouring some frames.


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## Path (Jan 17, 2012)

Are talking about a 3d printer?

If so can you tells us more about it?


Pat H.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 18, 2012)

Pat H-

I have a low-end 3D printer. I will not mention the manufacturer, since I am very unhappy with the unit, and have had enless trouble with both the hardware an software.

The only good thing about the low-end printers is the low cost of the material.

3D printers are like metal working machinery, you get what you pay for, although I must say you can get a very reliable and fairly accurate low-end lathe, and with the 3D printer I purchased, it is more of you get much less than you pay for.

I knew when I purchased the unit that low end 3D printers were not ready for prime time, but I really wanted to do some pattern making that was complex enough to warrant a 3D printer.

The process I use is to draw a part in either Alibre or Solidworks, then create a STL file, which is like a tool path file similar to CNC. The STL file then has to be processed by the printer's software, which is very slow, and a proprietery file is created and then sent to the 3D printer.

The printer has an extruder head that is heated, and a thin plastic material is fed to the extruder from a roll as the print head follows the tool path, similar to injet printer technology, but with a third (Z) axis.

I have sent out parts to be made on $25K machines via the internet, and those parts turn out extremely nice, but the cost is so high that it is difficult to justify unless you plan on sellling the part as a casting kit or just have money to burn. I can print a part for anywhere from 2-10 dollars, whereas the same part printed on a high-end machine may cost 100 dollars or more when you include shipping.

My machine is so unreliable that I generally use it only as a last ditch effort, and even on this frame part for TB5, the machine printed the bottom incorrectly, and I had to sand off about 1/4" from the bottom and glue on a piece of balsa filler. The surface finish on the high-end machines is extremely good, and on the low end machines the surface finish is considerably rougher. The method I use to correct the rough surface finish is to coat the outside of my 3D parts with a filler, and then sand lightly and paint. Some have mentioned using a solvent to smooth the exterior or a part, but solvents make some fumes that can cause some bad health problems, so I don't use solvents.

Also, you cannot just print the exact 3D model that you make using Alibre or Solidworks and expect to be able to cast that part. You have to add machining allowances and draft angles on the surfaces. The draft angles allow you to extract the part from the sand. When you print the part in 3D, you have to add a 1.02 multiplier for aluminum, or a 1.01 multiplier for brass/bronze/cast iron, since the part shrinks as the casting cools.

So in summary, I do not recommend a low-end 3D printer. If you really want a pattern, and cannot make it from balsa or other type woods, consider sending the part out to be printed on a high-end machine. If you forget or ignore the shrinkage, draft angle and machining tolerances, then your printer part will not be usable.

The process for making a pattern entails creating a 3D model, and then saving that part as a separate file for use as a pattern, and then adding draft angles, machining allowances, etc. If you modify your original 3D model to add the draft angles and machining tolerances, then your assembly does not work, so I use unmodified 3D model files to create assemblies, and then separate modified 3D files for patterns.

Pattern making is a little confusing at first, but you get the hang of it with some practice, and after you make a few patterns wrong.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 18, 2012)

Here are a few photos of a V6 engine printed on a high-end printer.
The 3D model for this part was not created by me, this is a sample that was shown at a printer seminar.

Note that this part is usless as a pattern, since the draft angle and machining tolerances have been ignored, but it does demonstrate what you can do with a $25K 3D printer.

The 3D printed part can be exactly like the real part down to the most minute detail, in fact you can scale down and print a full size engine if you want, but it can be challenging to keep all the fine detail unless you use a lost-wax type of casting.

The petrobond sand (petroleum-based sand) does capture a lot of fine detail, and unfortunately it captures so much fine detail that it will mirror the slightest imperfections in your pattern.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 18, 2012)

There is so much misinformation about casting on the internet, I will mention a few myths, as well as some safety items that must not be ignored.

Almost everyone you see on the internet uses a degasser and flux when casting aluminum, and they always skim the slag off the top of the aluminum before pouring.
If you use petrobond, there is virtually no gassing, and you don't need to add a degasser. If you use a high quality metal such as aluminum 356 available in the US from Budget Castings, then you don't need to add any flux, and I don't even skim the slag, since clean 356 does not have any appreciable slag.

Heat the metal as fast as possible, and do not stir it in any way, since stirring can introduce things that may cause gas (in the metal).

Use a pyrometer to get the exact pour temperature. I usually pour AL around 1,350 F.
If you pour at a temperature that is much less than 1,350, then the metal will solidify before if finishes filling the mold.

And of course, don't stand over the furnace and breath in AL fumes, they are not good for you.

Everyone on the internet says that steel crucibles add contaminates to the aluminum, but I see no evidence of that, and I have been getting perfect castings using a steel crucible, as do many others on the internet. You can really abuse a 1/4" thick steel crucible, and it just keeps on pouring. You can very easily damage a clay or silicon crucible just by handling it or putting metal in it.

Anything that contacts molten metal has to be preheated to remove all moisture, and you can expect an explosion if you mix molten metal with anything that has not be preheated to dry it completely, such as metal added to a hot crucible, metal poured into an ingot mold, and metal poured onto concrete.

Below is an ingot poured from AL356. You can see that the metal picks up the mill scale pattern from the ingot mold, and also perfectly copies the pattern left by the weld on the end of the ingot mold. This pour did not use flux, degasser, or slag skimming (none of my pours do). 

The good part about clean AL356 used with petrobond is that it accurately copies the surface of any pattern. The bad part of clean AL356 is that it accurately copies the slightest of imperfections in the surface of patterns, but the solution is to just make smooth patterns.


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## Path (Jan 18, 2012)

Thanks, really appreciate the info ...

Some time ago I had the opportunity to use one at a local college.
Think it cost about 30K, project came out real nice.


Pat H.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 22, 2012)

Here is the filled, sanded and painted pattern for the TB5 frame.

I will try and pour today weather permitting.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 22, 2012)

1st attempt at casting some frames today.

Not too bad, a few pourous spots, but usable.


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## Jeremy_BP (Jan 22, 2012)

UNIcastings  said:
			
		

> I have a low-end 3D printer. I will not mention the manufacturer, since I am very unhappy with the unit, and have had enless trouble with both the hardware an software.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> So in summary, I do not recommend a low-end 3D printer. If you really want a pattern, and cannot make it from balsa or other type woods, consider sending the part out to be printed on a high-end machine. If you forget or ignore the shrinkage, draft angle and machining tolerances, then your printer part will not be usable.



I do quite a lot of development work on your low-end 3D printers. I have them built to out-perform some of those $30K ones. The point being, it can be done, and without too much effort if you're careful and pick the right design to start with. But that's a side-note.

If you're interested, PM me and I'd be more than willing to help you make your printer perform better.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 23, 2012)

Jeremy-

Thanks for the input, I will try and get time to look at modifying the 3D printer.
It needs it.


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## Jeremy_BP (Jan 23, 2012)

Let me know if I can be of any assistance.


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## chuck foster (Mar 19, 2012)

any progress on this team build ??

chuck


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 19, 2012)

I had problems with my silver solder failing on the outer bearing support when I went to mill the top round, and also when I tried to press the bearings.

Did not have this problem on the first engine, but am having issues on the others, so this weekend I removed the silver solder, ground a "V" on the bottom edge of the outer bearing support, and then carefully stick welded the outer bearing support in place.

Luckily, this method seems to work, although it takes a little grinding.

So yep, I made some progress over the weekend on TB5, and will forge ahead now that I have a good method for attaching the outer bearing support.

TB5 will happen, just a slow learning process for me, with lots of plowing frozen ground. I keep breaking the plow.

I will try and get a photo up tomorrow.


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## maverick (Mar 20, 2012)

Pat,
 If you'd like to, you can send 1 (mine) or all of the frames to me for TIG welding. It's fast and easy to clean up.
 I can take a shot at boring them too. Let me know how I can help.

 Mike


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 20, 2012)

Mike-

I would love to have a good TIG machine, but I don't think I can justify it for as often as I would use it.


Thanks, I will consider your offer.

Pat J


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