# Philip Duclos "Odds N Ends" hit and miss engine



## Brian Rupnow

This morning I'm just setting around messing with Philip Duclos' "Odds N Ends" hit and miss engine. I have his book with the plans in it, but he calls for 32 DP timing gears while I have only 24 DP gear cutters. A little research shows me that a 16 tooth and a 32 tooth 24DP gear should work fine, and doesn't change anything except the vertical position of the cam shaft mounting hole and the rocker arm pivot hole.


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## cfellows

The first gas engine I ever built was based on Phil's Odds'n'Ends plans.  I departed radically from his design on the cylinder and the head.  Actually, I guess the only thing I retained was the engine base, frame, crankshaft and overall size.  It's a great little engine as are all of Phil's designs.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks for having a look Chuck. I'm not real sure I want to build this, but boredom and wintertime can do terrible things to me.;D;D


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## Brian Rupnow

A question for anyone who may have built this engine. Does the piston skirt REALLY stick out .109" beyond the cylinder when the piston is at bottom dead center? This doesn't seem right to me. Be aware that I have changed the left hand end of the sideplates to come out flush with the back side of the cylinder water jacket, but I haven't changed any of the mathematical relationships given in the drawings in Philip Duclos' book.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I may have answered my own question. I've just watched half a dozen videos on youtube of this engine running, and yes, it does seem that the piston skirt does come out of the cylinder by about .100 at bottom dead center. This seems a bit strange to me, but the engines seem to run fine, so I guess no harm is done by it.


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## dreeves

Brian, This engine is on my to do list. I will be following with intrest

Dave


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## Ed

Thanks Brian for starting this thread on the odds n ends. I just finished the base and have the cylinder sleeve ready to drill out.I also have the cylinder cut out and ready to size and make it.I'm kinda new at machining and am learning as I go. I'll be looking forward to any info you have. One question if you don't have a press how do you press the sleeve in to the cylinder block? Ed


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## Brian Rupnow

Ed--I have, in the past, just used a large vice. I have also (shudder) used a block of wood and a bfh. (Big Hammer). Well, truth be known, I had too much interferance fit when I built my Kerzel hit and miss. I started out squeezing the liner into place in my vice, with the liner coated with 638 Loctite, and when it stuck half way, out of sheer desperation I walked over and got my 6 pound sledgehammer and took it over to my anvil to finish the insertion. (I do not recommend this)----However I was at the point where both pieces were ruined anyways if I couldn't finish the insertion. Amazingly enough, it worked fine and has never leaked a drop of cooling water, but it was more panic stricken good luck than good management.


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## Brian Rupnow

I was mistaken. The small gear doesn't need a keyway and setscrew. It gets pinned to the shaft with a 1/16" dowel. That means I can use a 15 and 30 tooth gear with 24 DP and still keep the 0.9375" vertical centers. I have learned something new. I didn't know that gearsets with different diametral pitches can still be configured for the same ratio and center distance. I don't know if thats true in all cases or if I just got lucky here.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I haven't cut any gears since I built my Steam Donky Winch over a year ago. I just got out all my paperwork and my gear cutters out for a full review. I found a few bits and bobs of brass in my brass drawer and came up with enough material to make two gears and the cam. In the original plans, the cam is machined right on the face of the larger 30 tooth gear, however I will have to solder the cam to the large gear. Here is a picture of the bits of brass I came up with, and the calculations I just made to set up my mill and rotary table, and to turn the blanks in preperation for cutting the gears. If anyone has questions, go ahead and ask.


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## cfellows

Ed said:


> Thanks Brian for starting this thread on the odds n ends. I just finished the base and have the cylinder sleeve ready to drill out.I also have the cylinder cut out and ready to size and make it.I'm kinda new at machining and am learning as I go. I'll be looking forward to any info you have. One question if you don't have a press how do you press the sleeve in to the cylinder block? Ed


 
Another method is to use a threaded rod, probably at least 1/2" for this sized project.  Thread the rod through the cylinder and the liner with large washers on each end.  Best if the washers are turned with a shoulder so they keep the rod centered in the work pieces.  Then us a nut on each end and tighten to pull the sleeve through the cylinder.  Oil the rod and nuts to minimize friction.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

This first picture shows the two gear blanks turned to the correct outer diameter and thickness. To do this I first drilled and reamed the center holes by mounting the pieces in my lathes 3 jaw chuck and using drills and reamers mounted in the tailstock chuck to get the 3/8" center holes in them. I then Loctited them onto short lengths of 3/8" cold rolled shaft so I could hold the cold rolled in my lathe chuck and finish the o.d. and thickness of the parts. The 3/8" bore will be the finished bore in the small gear. The large gear will get the cam and a 3/8" diameter piece of brass silver soldered to it for "further processing".


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## Brian Rupnow

This is the large gear blank with the cam and a piece of 7/16" hex brass turned to 3/8" and all silver soldered together. Messy looking brute isn't it!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

This is the large gear with the cam soldered to it "cleaned up" on the face side. The back side is still uglier than sin, but I will hang onto that hex shank to cut the gear teeth, then cut the shank off and clean the back side up as well. Both the gear blank and the cam had a .075 x 45 degree chamfer around the bore to hold a good solid ring of silver solder after everthing is cleaned up.


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## Brian Rupnow

So, after almost a whole day fiddle-fartin around, I have a set of gears and a cam. Its a good thing I don't charge myself by the hour---I couldn't afford this!!! Seriously, I don't do enough of this to really be comfortable with it. Its not like learning from scratch each time I do it, but it certainly makes me refer to reference notes I have made in the past when making gears. That book that I showed in an earlier post with my gear calculations in it is a real treasure. I have a new note to put in it this time.---Use longer stub arbors to keep the gear blank farther away from the rotary table chuck, or there won't be clearance for the gear cutter and the chuck jaws. I had to scab extensions onto both stub arbors today to achieve this clearance.---We learn, we learn!!!


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## dreeves

Looks great Brian.  I cut some gears several years ago. You are right if you don't do it a lot it takes a while to get back up to speed.

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

Yes, I do write notes to myself!! At least on something like cutting gears, which I don't do very often. Its amazing how much this helps the next time I have to do this.


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## Brian Rupnow

And last but not least, the gears mesh properly at the correct center distance. I notice that I have inadvertantly rounded off the outer corner of the cam during my clean up filing and sanding. That won't effect the way it works though, as the cam follower rides on the portion of cam which is right up tight to the gear face.


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## Brian Rupnow

I just learned something new this afternoon. I always thought that anything that could be bored on the lathe could also be bored with a boring head on the mill. I'm pretty sure I was wrong. Take a look at the bores in this water jacket. Neither could be made with a boring head on the mill. Why?? Because to do the larger internal bores, you have to be able to advance the radius of the tool while the tool or the part is turning under power. That is easily done with a boring bar in the lathe. With the lathe running and the cutting tool on the boring bar part way into the smaller finished bore, you can back out the cross slide and increase the tool radius. You can't do that with a boring head. Son of a gun, I like it when I discover something new!!!


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## idahoan

Hi Brian

I depends on the boring head; I have two of them that will allow the cutter to advance while it is turning. Here is a picture of my larger one in use as a fixed diameter on this setup. Holding the knurled ring at the top causes the tool to move out a little bit each revolution. This one has three feed rates.






They work great for facing; I have machined hundreds of air cooled VW heads over the years with this head.

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

Well Idahoan---Thats impressive!!! I didn't know there was such a tool. It looks to be a tool that would be beyond reach dollarwise for a hobby machinist. Thank you for showing me.----Brian


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## idahoan

Their not cheap, but sure come in handy some times.

Nice job on your engine so far.

Thanks for sharing,
Dave


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## johwen

Hello Brian,
Yes I built this engine back in the eighties and it run great. The piston does extend out like you say but does no harm as it has a fairly long skirt. I modified my engine by making it overhead valve. and the valve gear was placed on the opposite side. It was a sturdy little engine started and run well. I ran short of money back in the nineties and sold it. Have since made another which is basically free lance called "MODERNA" a hit and miss but with more modern lines.
jowen


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## Brian Rupnow

The original plan for this engine used a pair of angles for the side plates, and perched the water jacket up on top of them, leaving a gap between the underside of the waterjacket and the base. The water jacket also hung out past the back of the sideplates. I didn't fancy the overall look of this, so have decided to make the sideplates from 3/8" plate and to "profile" the water jacket to extend down between them to the baseplate. Of course this leaves me with a water jacket which requires a lot of carving and milling on it. I have also decided to make the top of the water jacket from a seperate piece. I have finished the profiling of the water jacket, and am about to set it up in the 4 jaw chuck in my lathe to bore the hole for the cast iron cylinder. I hate using the 4 jaw chuck worse than snakes, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I will post a picture when everything is set up in the 4 jaw. I went over to BusyBee this morning and bought two new boring bars which hold a 1/4" square HSS bit, so this will be something relatively new for me.


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## Brian Rupnow

After 20 minutes of tightning and loosening chuck screws, (Thats the part I hate about 4 jaw work) I finally got down to .002" movement of the needle on the dial indicator. I couldn't get any closer than that, so decided to quit while I was ahead and tighten everything up. A couple of good raps on the face of the part with my dead blow hammer to seat the part firmly against the chuck jaws, and its ready to be bored. May the force be with me----


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## Ed

Brian I'm at the same spot as you are. I drilled the hole in the block of steel yesterday up to 1in.now I need to bore it out. I have a home made boring bar. We'll see if it works. I'll try to take some pictures this afternoon and see if I can figure out how to  attach them. The largest drill I have is a 1in so have some boring to do. Ed


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## pkastagehand

... it is quite common for the original full scale hit 'n miss engines to have the piston skirt come out of the cylinder a bit.  It's been a while since i have run them but I'm pretty sure both my 1-1/2 HP Economy and my 7 HP Galloway do that.

Paul



Brian Rupnow said:


> I may have answered my own question. I've just watched half a dozen videos on youtube of this engine running, and yes, it does seem that the piston skirt does come out of the cylinder by about .100 at bottom dead center. This seems a bit strange to me, but the engines seem to run fine, so I guess no harm is done by it.


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, this appears to be as good as it gets with my Chinese brazed carbide boring bars. I first used a center drill in the tailstock chuck to get things started. Then I switched to a 0.341" drill (which is about right for a 10MM x 1 pitch sparkplug thead) and drilled all the way thru the aluminum block. Then I used up to a 3/4" drill in steps, taking great caution not to send the tip of the drill into the block amy more than 1.75". Last step was to send a 3/4" 4 flute endmill down the hole to ensure a totally flat bottom in the hole. I set up my lathe stops to ensure that I wouldn't go deeper than 1.75". Then with my brazed carbide tool I started taking .005" radial cuts at 300 rpm. This worked but produced a very heavy chatter, so I went to my slowest lathe speed, 115 Rpm. after MANY in and outs with the boring tool, I closed in on my final desired diameter of 1.375". after that, I ran the boring tool in and out an absolutely amazing number of times untill it cut "spring cutting"---That is to say, removing material even though i hadn't advanced the tool, caused by "springiness" in the shank of the carbide tipped boring tool. when i finally got to the point where it was no longer removing material, my hole mikes out a 1.379" diameter. This is not a big deal, as i will be turning the outer diameter of the cast iron cylinder to fit the bore. Now I get to set up my new boring bar with the inserted 1/4" hss cutting bit to open up the recess around the 1 3/8" hole to 1 5/8" which provides circulation of water around the cylinder. This is the bore I decided couldn't be done on the milling machine. (At least not with my boring head.)


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## Brian Rupnow

Now, this is a BORING BAR!!! It is 3/4" dia. x 12" long with a square hole through one end and a 45 degree hole thru the far end for a 1/4" square hss. cutting tool. Okay, I know i have to cut the 1/4" cutting tool much shorter. What I don't know, is whether to try cutting/boring with the full width of the 1/4" face. It seems to me that would chatter very badly. My plan at the moment is to grind the first 1/4" of length down to only 1/8" wide, and do the same to the opposite end of the tool, but on the opposite side. This will effectively give me a "right hand tool" and a "left hand tool". I will go to the extreme depth of the 1 5/8" coolant passage and do a plunge cut to the full 1 5/8" diameter. I will then switch ends on the cutting tool, move to the other end of the 1 5/8" coolant passage and do another full depth plunge cut. Remember now, this plunge cut will only be 1/8" deep. Then i can back my tool out and take lighter cuts back and forth between these two annular rings untill the entire coolant ring  area is opened out to 1 5/8" diameter. Does that sound about right??


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## Ed

My boring bar works. At the point of taking .001 off now. I have an appointment so have to finish tomorrow.


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## Brian Rupnow

Jeez Ed--You're way out ahead of me!!! I had to drive to a customers this afternoon, and got thinking on the way. I don't need to grind right and left hand ends on my cutting tool. Since I'n not boring up tight against an adjacent face, I only need to reduce the width at one end to 1/8".


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## Brian Rupnow

I had to drive to a customers this afternoon, and got thinking on the way. I don't need to grind right and left hand ends on my cutting tool. Since I'n not boring up tight against an adjacent face, I only need to reduce the width at one end to 1/8". This is what I ended up with. I did have really sharp corners on each side of the cutting edge, and was wondering about creating stress risers in the part I was machining. I took a look at picture #7 in Philip Duclos' book and seen that he had a fairly good rad on the tool he shows, so I dismounted the tool after this picture was taken and stoned a small radius on each sharp corner.


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, that was interesting. In fact---Ah Hell, I'll come right out and say it---It was kinda SCARY!!! However, evrything worked just like the machining books said it was supposed to!! I had set my carriage stops both front and rear so that I didn't have to count turns, I just ran the carriage back and forth between the stops. I could feel a bit of chatter, so I worked with my rpm at 115 and took about .003" to .004" radial cut. I kept squirting oil in periodically, and stopped the lathe a couple of times to pull out chips from the hole with my needle nosed pliers. when I was all finished boring, I put my M10 sparkplug tap in my small chuck, held in the larger tailstock chuck, and manually turned the headstock chuck with the tailstock not locked down. This let the tap pull itself thru and remain perfectly centered. Everything is removed from the lathe now and wiped clean, and I must say it looks awfully good. I haven't used this type of boring bar and tool before, but it all worked as adverised with no disasters.


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## Brian Rupnow

Now I will ask an opinion. The waterjacket I have been working on also gets a large bore in the top to contain water, and a thru hole to let the water circulate around the cylinder. In Philip duclos' book, he pressed the cast iron cylinder liner into place before putting these other holes in the waterjacket. I would find it much more convenient to put all the holes in the waterjacket first, and press the cylinder into place (with lots of Loctite) as a last operation. Would there be any good reason not to do it the way I prefer?---Brian


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## Ed

Brian Thanks for all the help and directions you are giving me. I could not have gotten as far as I have with out your directions.I will be following your build. Thanks for the pictures they realy help. Ed


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## Brian Rupnow

I have been warned by other, more experienced heads than mine, to press the cast iron cylinder into place, using lots of Loctite and let it set up 24 hours, before I bore out the water jacket area.


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## Brian Rupnow

I found a little time this afternoon (actually quite a bit of time) and made the top for the waterjacket. Since I opted to have a "tail" on my waterjacket to fill up the gap between the sideplates, there was no way I could fit the waterjacket into my 4 jaw on the lathe to do the stepped bore for the water container. Not a big problem. I'll do the bore for the water container part of the water jacket on my mill, and Loctite the top on as a seperate piece. Since I had the 4 jaw chuck on my lathe anyways, I decided the top should have a 3/16" long x 1.75" diameter projection on it to fit inside the bored hole--all the more for the Loctite to hold onto.


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## cfellows

So, Brian, I'm guessing you are committed to building this engine now??? 

Nice work, as usual.  One question, before you turned the projection on the water jacket top, were you planning to just Loctite two flat surfaces together?  Will that work?  I thought Loctite only worked with one piece inside another...

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Its a trick, Chuck. That was my plan all along. I wouldn't trust Loctite to stick 2 flat surfaces together. Now watch--100 people will jump in and say they use it that way all the time and it works for them!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

And here we have---"Swarf Mountain"!! I tried to buy grey cast iron that had  a hole cored thru it similar to heavy wall pipe, but all my supplier had was 1.5" dia. solid round bar. This, as shown, has a 15/16" hole drilled thru it. I step drilled with 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and then jumped to 15/16".  Now I will mount it on a 15/16" arbor and turn the outside to what I hope/hope/hope is a medium press fit into the aluminum water jacket. Before it gets pressed into the water jacket, I will remove the arbor, hold the outer finished diameter in my chuck, and ream the bore to its finished 1.00" size.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> I found a little time this afternoon (actually quite a bit of time) and made the top for the waterjacket. Since I opted to have a "tail" on my waterjacket to fill up the gap between the sideplates, there was no way I could fit the waterjacket into my 4 jaw on the lathe to do the stepped bore for the water container. Not a big problem. I'll do the bore for the water container part of the water jacket on my mill, and Loctite the top on as a seperate piece. Since I had the 4 jaw chuck on my lathe anyways, I decided the top should have a 3/16" long x 1.75" diameter projection on it to fit inside the bored hole--all the more for the Loctite to hold onto.


great work Brian,
you can use GREEN loctite for that application
or if you go to a GM dealer they have Gasket eliminator it's red but 4 time the thickness of red loctite.
or go to a professional motorcycle shop that does two stroke their is a produck call crankcase glue
it's use to assemble crankcase of motorcycle or snowmobile work awsome

cheers


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Luc.--I am going to use green Loctite #638. I have things turned to a point where it is soooo close--I don't dare take any more off. I miked the inside bore of my waterjacket 9 different places, and took an average of my readings. The average says 1.384. I have the o.d. of the cylinder setting right at 1.386. I'm afraid to take any more off, because the next thing I do the damn cylinder will FALL into the bore. I have to do a final ream of the cylinder i.d. and then its showtime.---Wish me luck!!!---Brian


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## starnovice

Brian,
I have read all of your threads. It is really amazing how far you have come in this hobby.  I always learn a lot from your work.

Thank you
Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

I got this far and chickened out. Well actually, I decided that discretion is the better part of valour!! The cylinder is finished inside and out, and looks good but I decided not to press it in here. I have to go to one of the small shops tomorrow that I do engineering work for, and they have a hydraulic press. All I have here to press with is my old vice, a manual arbor press, and my redneck favourite, the 6 pound hammer and anvil. It might slip right into place easy, but then again it might hang up half way in like the Kerzel engine I built. If it hangs up part way, thats really bad Mojo because its going into a blind hole, and can't be pressed out again from the other side. I will use their hydraulic press and lots of Loctite tomorrow.


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## Shopguy

Brian
You might consider heating the block and chilling the cylinder liner. Quite a common practice for fitting dry liners in full scale diesel engines.
Your project certainly looks good so far.
Ernie Johnson


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## petertha

Shopguy said:


> ... consider heating the block and chilling the cylinder liner....


 
I was wondering the same myself. But in this type of application, would you still be able to use locktite/metal adhesive between the 2 parts? I'm wondering if the elevated temperature might 'set off' the adhesive before the liner is fully in its final position? I guess it's all about their fit & insertion timing. I see a lot of model cylinders are constructed this way, but the way they are stuck together sometimes varies.


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## cfellows

So, I'm wondering if Loctite is even required?  If you have an interference like this, isn't all the Loctite going to be just be scraped off when you press in the cylinder liner?  Not that it will hurt anything to use Loctite.  And, the Loctite might act as a lubricant to help press the liner home.

I guess all I did was confuse the issue, huh?  

Chuck


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## cfellows

By the way, I normally do this by making the head end of the water jacket a slightly small bore, then turn down the cylinder liner all but the back end to an interference fit with the front.  The back bit is also an interference fit with the back of the water jacket which is a slightly larger bore.  That way you can slip the cylinder in by hand to where front meets the front end of the water jacket, then just use a press for last 1/4" or so.

Chuck.


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## Brian Rupnow

Even with my state of the art measuring instuments (groan), I can't tell if its a press fit or not untill I start pressing it---and then its too late, because going into a blind hole, ya gotta just suck it and see and you only get one chance. So--Plan is--Take it to the shop I do some engineering work for tomorrow, slather it with Loctite, put it in their hydraulic press, and start pressing. Maybe I don't need the power of a hydraulic press, but I'd much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'm not going to mess around with different temperatures because all this does is A--Burn my fingers B--make my wife angry C-do some incomprensible thing to the Loctite. And yes, I do think the Loctite acts as a lubricant for about the first 23 seconds.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> Thanks Luc.--I am going to use green Loctite #638. I have things turned to a point where it is soooo close--I don't dare take any more off. I miked the inside bore of my waterjacket 9 different places, and took an average of my readings. The average says 1.384. I have the o.d. of the cylinder setting right at 1.386. I'm afraid to take any more off, because the next thing I do the damn cylinder will FALL into the bore. I have to do a final ream of the cylinder i.d. and then its showtime.---Wish me luck!!!---Brian


GOOD LUCK  you can do it


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, its in there!! I used a q-tip to slather a goodly amount of Loctite 638 both into the water jacket bore and on the outside of the cast cylinder, and had at it with the hydraulic press. (The hydraulic press is one of those cheapies with a bottle jack inside a channel frame). The first part of the cylinder went in with what I would deem as a light press fit, . The last 1/2" or so of travel took a fairly good grunt, but never stopped moving until it had bottomed out. I think its probably a good compression tight fit. And Oh Yes, I built the base yesterday afternoon after dinner.


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## cfellows

Nice job!  I have to agree with you, interference fits are more magic than engineering.  About half of my previous attemps turned out truly successful.  Some were too loose, others had me shearing metal off the outside of the insert using my 20 ton hydraulic press.  I think the surface finish has a lot to do with it also.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Its been a very boring afternoon---And I mean that literally. I never actually realized it before, but boring parts in a lathe has got to be about 100 times quicker than boring things on a mill.--At least on a small mill like mine. At any rate, this cylinder/water jacket is just about done. I have four holes left to tap, and if I don't stuff that up, I can move on to my engine sideplates.


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## Ed

Brian I like your top idea. It has style. Mine is still setting just as in my pictures. I can't go into the shop for 45 days per the Dr. Driving me crazy I was doing so good flowing you. Well I'm still here and will play catch up. Ed


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## Brian Rupnow

Ed ---It might be safer.--I have been known to (unwittingly) lead people down the garden path!!! Hope you are better soon---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Made good progress today, and got both side frames almost finished. Everything bolts together as intended, and I like the way the water jacket extends down to the baseplate between the sideplates. I have to go and buy a #8-32 tap tomorrow, and a few bolts of the correct size.


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## dreeves

Brian, I do like the solid front. It's a nice touch to the engine. Keep up the good work

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

More 4 jaw work machining the 660 bronze crankshaft bearings. I don't think I could ever get to actually LIKE 4 jaw chuck work, but its ttrue, what others have said. It does get easier as you do more of it!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I have spent the best part of today machining these two crankshaft bearings from 660 bronze. They are right and left hand. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but now I have to admit to making a "good mistake" if there can possibly be such a thing. The saddle in the sideplates where the bearing sets was supposed to be 1" long. I misread my own drawing when I layed out the  sideplates, and made the saddle 1 1/4" long. However, I made the part the correct length, and still allowed for the additional .125" beyond the saddle to the end of the sideplate at the top. The only result of my mistake was that the saddle where the bearing sets was 1/4" longer than it was supposed to be, and the angle at the end of the sideplates ended up being different than my drawing called for.  That angle at the end of the sideplates is "in the air"--its purely cosmetic and doesn't mate with anything. My solution to this, was to make each bearing block 1/4" longer on one side of the centerline, which filled the 1/4" gap nicely, but made the bearings right and left hand. I got lucky. Mistakes in reading a drawing usually result in disaster and remaking parts.


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## Brian Rupnow

Its almost crankshaft time!!!


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## Ed

Brian Did you make the gears? Ed


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## Cogsy

Brian Rupnow said:


> More 4 jaw work machining the 660 bronze crankshaft bearings. I don't think I could ever get to actually LIKE 4 jaw chuck work, but its ttrue, what others have said. It does get easier as you do more of it!!


 
When I first got my lathe I put off installing my 4 jaw until I absolutely had to use it. I didn't enjoy my first couple of uses but since then (and hundreds of parts later) I have NEVER re-installed the 3 jaw. I'm not sure I ever will.


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## Brian Rupnow

Ed --Look at posts #10 thru 18. It shows all the steps I used in making the gears plus a video. Sorry to hear that you can't get into your shop for a month.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Cogsy said:


> When I first got my lathe I put off installing my 4 jaw until I absolutely had to use it. I didn't enjoy my first couple of uses but since then (and hundreds of parts later) I have NEVER re-installed the 3 jaw. I'm not sure I ever will.


Cogsy---Your a braver man than me!!!  My 3 jaw chuck has a total indicated runout (TIR) of .003" which is about standard for cheap 3 jaw chucks. I can never get it any closer than that with a 4 jaw, even after multiple tries and frustration trying to "zero" the damned thing. To me thats a lot of pain for very little tangible gain. I use the 4 jaw when I absolutely must, but not as a matter of course.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

What you see here, is a truly horrible end to a truly horrible day!!! I decided to make my crankshaft as a built up unit, pinned and silver soldered together from seperate pieces. All went well, and I had everything drilled, reamed, centered, trued, and silver soldered, ready for cleanup. Then I got the TELEPHONE CALL. A very east indian sounding chap, telling me was from Microsoft, and that my computer was downloading error messages and overwhelming the local server. I am not as a usual matter of course a gullible old fool, but this fellow sounded very sincere. He directed me to a place deep in the guts of my computer and sure enough, there were a whole #[email protected] load of big red error messages. Now my spider senses had started to tingle a bit, but then again, damn near every place that has a tech help division now operates out of India. He informed me that if this wasn't fixed at once, it could possibly crash my computer and lose all of my files, yada, yada, yada. However, rescue was at hand, because if I would just give him access to my computer he could set things right for the low, low price of $149 payable thru PayPal. ---And that he would install some software that was good for the next 3 years to prevent this happening again.----So I did. Then my good wife, being the ever diligent watchdog that she is went online, looked it up, and sure enough, the whole damn thing was a scam. The rest of the day was spent in a flurry of cancelling bank cards, changing passwords, changing accounts, changing online access codes, calling Vissa, calling Paypal, visiting local banks, removing added software from my computers hard drive, running malware and anti virus programs, phoning computer repair shops (who in my opinion are only one notch better than the scammers).--In short, a totally dreadfull experience. At the end of the day, when things had sttled down, I decided that something to calm my mind was in order, so I went down to my little shop and decided to begin final clean-up and machining of the crankshaft. I got the center cut out, the shaft mounted between centers with one leg running past a chuck jaw to act as a drive dog, and very carefully cleaned up one side. Then I changed to an opposite hand tool and just started to very carefully clean up the other side, when "WHAM--CLUNK"--a horrible end to a horrible day.  I may spend the rest of the winter hiding in my bedroom contemplating my navel, or maybe take up needlepoint.----Brian


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## AussieJimG

What a bummer. It can happen to any of us, particularl when our minds are on other things. I am pleased that you managed to recover before any serious damage was done.

And since the crankshaft is already bent, don't discard it before trying to straighten it. I have read about blokes in the BSA factory in UK who  check each rifle barrel after it has been bored and who then bend it straight. If they can do it. so can you. Put it in the chuck and whack it with a hammer and block of wood until it indicates straight. I did it for one of mine that warped when silver soldered and it works fine.

You have nothing to lose.

Meanwhile, thank you for another interesting thread. I am watching with great pleasure.

Jim


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## cfellows

I know how you feel, Brian.  Seems like everything I do these days starts with one for practice and 1 for the finished product.  Not intendedthat way, just turns out that way!

Chuck


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## Ogaryd

Hi Brian, sorry to hear about your crash, we've all had that happen more than once. My solution for a day like that comes in a clear bottle labeled Dewars, all you have to do is add ice, works like magic.
   The normal disclaimers, I'm in no way affiliated with this company. just good experiences.           Regards Gary


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## Brian Rupnow

I have two crankshafts now for what somebody called "The wall of Shame". One milled completely from bar stock and finished before I realized my tailstock adjustment had come loose and drifted out of alignment, and this new built up one with the funny bend in it..


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## Brian Rupnow

COWABUNGA!!!! I reported the computer scammer to the Canadian fraud authorities and to Paypal.---Just got an email from Paypal that my $149 has been refunded. Now all I have to do is wear that sign around my neck for the next six months that says "Gullible Old Fool"!!!!


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## starnovice

Well, while you are wearing the sign, just make sure to keep your wife close so she can look after you.  

Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, so far-so good!! This is my second attempt at a crankshaft, this time being turned from solid hot rolled 1018 steel flatbar. The cutting tool is a 3/4" x 1/8" wide parting off tool, HSS. I have turned the center journal down to the point where I have to grind a left hand and a right hand cutter to finish the journal to size. I find this very nerve wracking, expecting the side of the crankshaft throw to come around and whack the cutting tool and do something dreadfull!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Here we have right and left hand lathe tools. If they look a little crude, thats because, er, uhm,---They are a little crude!! However, they are only crude in the clearance areas. The parts that really count (as in cutting edges) are "Right on".--Lacking the time and/or energy to stand for two hours in front of my 6" grinder, I clamped the tools one at a time in my old shop vise and "clearanced" them with my big old angle grinder with a 36 grit wheel on it. Nothing like using a sledge hammer to kill a gnat!!! The crankshaft center journal is finished, measures 0.375" "dead nuts" and has a pretty damn respectable finish on it. Now I have to quit for a while, and work up the courage to turn the rest of the crankshaft.--And Oh Yeah---I was plunge cutting with the end of the tool---very very little cutting on the side of the tool.


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## Maxine

Glad to see the new one is going well.  I have had the slug for the crank for my Demon V8 sitting between centers on my lathe for two or three weeks now but have not yet worked up the nerve to try and offset turn it.  So I'm rooting for success on your effort!


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## Brian Rupnow

Now to put a 3/8" bolt thru the center and tighten a nut into place, with a flat washer, to keep any potential "spring" from distorting the crankshaft when supported between centers, and back into the lathe for next machining operation.


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## idahoan

Looking good Brian,

I feel that you really need something to completely fill the gap tightly; you may never get just a nut and bolt tight enough to keep from springing the crank under the pressure of the centers. This is the little gizmo I made while turning the crank on my Pacific engine.





It slipped in tightly and locked down; there was no worry of the crank closing up under the pressure of the centers.

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

One end done----


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## Brian Rupnow

It goes 'round and 'round. It doesn't crash, and it doesn't wobble. I think I did it right this time!!!


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## thayer

idahoan said:


> I feel that you really need something to completely fill the gap tightly; you may never get just a nut and bolt tight enough to keep from springing the crank under the pressure of the centers. This is the little gizmo I made while turning the crank on my Pacific engine.
> Dave



Dave,

While it looks like Brian got it sorted with a nut and bolt, I do like your solution. It looks rather more "right." Combining approaches, I might be tempted to turn a full-diameter bushing for the bolt to accomplish the same. It seems I can remove material faster with my lathe than mill.

Thayer


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## Brian Rupnow

I had to take a couple of hours this morning and work my way thru the "hit and miss" mechanisms for this engine. Modelling it in 3D cad makes it much easier for me to understand, and also lets me see if there were any mistakes in the original 2D drawings of this engine which are posted in the book. Everything looks to be okay, now I just have to machine all the little bits and pieces.----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

It doesn't look like much, and its not a great photograph, but two little parts were made and fitted this afternoon. The cam shaft, which passes thru the large gear and anchors in the engine sideplate, and the spacer that sets the distance from the sideplate to the side of the gear. I have to approach building these small engines the same way you would eat an elephant----one small bite at a time. If you consider ALL of the pieces, you would throw up your hands and find a different hobby.  As a side note, when I built the gears and drilled a test block with the correct hole centers for a pair of dummy shafts, the gears meshed perfectly, as can be seen in the video clip at the beginning of this thread. Once I got them installed on the engine however, they wanted to bind very badly. After a lot of head scratching and measuring, I determined that "somehow" I had drilled the hole in the engine sideplate .020" too close to the crankshaft gear. Since the camshaft is locked in the sideplate with a set screw, I was able to "stretch" the hole .020" farther away from the crankshaft, and the gears mesh fine now. 
Brian


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## jixxerbill

Thats some kind of nice work Brian !! Im in awe and envy of your build... Mainly envy  !! Keep the pics comming, I learn so much from them you would not believe...Especially pics with work jiged up and ready to cut ! Bill


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## cfellows

Ahhh, nothing nicer than a finely finished solid crankshaft!  Truly a piece of art.  Heck, Brian, looks like you'll have this thing running in a couple of days!  

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks guys, for looking and commenting. It helps keep me going when I know others are interested.---Brian


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## stevehuckss396

How do you stretch a hole? Endmill?


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## Brian Rupnow

stevehuckss396 said:


> How do you stretch a hole? Endmill?


Thats it---Used a 1/4" endmill which cuts marginally less than .25" (as tested on a scrap piece of aluminum).--First I clamped the engine to an angle plate, put a piece of 1/4" cold rolled in the milling machine chuck, then cranked things around untill it would slide into the previously reamed hole. Then I offset the table .020" in the right direction, plunged thru with the 4 flute endmill, and finished up by running a .25 reamer thru. It worked fine. The thing that saved my butt is the fact that the camshaft doesn't rotate. The cam is silver soldered to the side of the gear, which does rotate.


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## Brian Rupnow

I woke up this morning feeling a bit "pistonish"---so thats how I spent my day. The other half of that piece of grey cast iron that I made the cylinder from was setting around in my shop, so I grabbed it and after about 4 or 5 hours I had a piston and I even scrounged up a bit of 3/16" cold rolled to make a piston pin from. I think this time around I may try cast iron rings. I have always used Viton O rings in the past on my I.C. engines, and they perform very well, but I would like to try using cast iron rings this time to see if there is any difference in the way the engine performs. I know of "Coles power Models" because they are mentioned in the Philip Duclos book, but if any of you guys know of a good source of cast iron rings in North America, please let me know. Don't suggest that I make them myself please. My machining abilities are not up to it yet.


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## Brian Rupnow

Accomplished a little bit today----but only a little bit. Layed out the con rod this morning, then goodwife and I took our grand daughters up to winter carnival in Orillia. Beautifull sunny winters day, watched a bunch of lunatics take the "Polar Bear Plunge" into Lake Couchiching thru a hole cut in the ice. Brrrrrr!!! When we got home I shaped the con rod cap, drilled it, tapped the main con rod body, and bolted them together. I will shape the main body of the con rod tomorrow and put in the holes for the wrist pin and crankshaft journal. Oddly, Philip Duclos doesn't call for any bushings at either end of the aluminum con rod, but then again, these are only demo engines that don't see any real working life, so probably bushings aren't needed.----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Todays offering to the machining gods is one aluminum connecting rod.


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## Brian Rupnow

Phewwwww----Had a little heart spas going there for a minute!! I got everything together, and the crankshaft wouldn't go all the way around. It hung up at just about when the piston was getting to top dead center Oh No!!! What did I do. Did I make the con rod too long? Did I make the crank throws too long??? Did I misread the drawing of the piston when i made it? Oh wait--lets shove the vernier down thru the spark plug hole and measure how far it is down to the top of the piston.  0.465"--That can't be right!! Whats going on???  Tear things all apart and sure enough---A Big glob of Loctite has oozed out when I pressed the cylinder into the water jacket and "froze' on the inside of the cylinder. With a little "scrapy, polishy, cursy" the Loctite is gone. The crankshaft goes all the way around now. I'm ahead!!! I'm going to quit for the day!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Today I ordered a pair of cast iron rings from Coles Power Models in Texas. This will be "breaking new ground" for me, as I have only used Viton o-rings before now.


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## Brian Rupnow

Started a bunch of "flywheel foolishness" this afternoon. Both aluminum saw cut-offs were turned to 1/16" greater than finished diameter, faced on both sides to .100 greater than finished thickness, and drilled and reamed to finished size, which is .375". I have to be carefull now not to get ahead of myself, as there are a lot of steps to what I am doing, and if I get out of sequence, it can mean wasted material and starting over.


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## cfellows

Nice chunk of steel pipe laying there.  I assume that will be a flywheel rim?  Should be nice and heavy and make for a good runner.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

You're right Chuck. Steel mechanical tubing.--Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

So there we have it!!! With a lot of help from my friends, two nice flywheels, turned to size, recessed, keyseated, and set screwed. They are still 1/16" wider than the drawing calls for, so that when I mate them to the steel outer rims I can do a clean up pass on both sides. There is a tremendous lot of work in those two buggers---Its 4:35 now, and I started at 9:00 this morning. I still have to add the holes in the webs, but thats a job for another day.


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## Tom Jamboretz

The place I use for cast iron rings is at www.ringspacers.com. Dave Reed is a real agreeable gentlman and I have gotten many rings from him for models and large engines. He is in Maryland. TJ


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## Brian Rupnow

I've has a very "rotary table" morning!!! My little mill runs out of power at any drill much larger than 1/2" diameter and blows its $3 glass fuse, which is a royal pain in the keester. The solution---drill all the holes thru with a 3/8" drill, then go around and plunge mill them thru with a 3/4" endmill, then go around again and plunge mill them thru again with a 7/8" endmill. This works, but it makes for a lot of cranking. Now, on to the exciting part---turning the sections of steel mechanical tubing to finished size and facing them. The maximum capacity of my lathe chuck is 5 3/8" diameter with the reversed jaws in it. The steel tubing is 5" o.d.


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## Brian Rupnow

This is how I turned the steel outer rings in the 3 jaw chuck. First operation is to set one of  them against the jaws, clamp them, turn half the o.d., face the exposed face, and bore the center all except for the last 1/32" closest to the jaws to finished size. Mark the part to correspond with one of the jaws, flip it around in the chuck, set it tight against the face of the jaws, match the mark you just made up to the same jaw, machine the other half of the o.d. to match the first half, machine away the remaining exposed face untill you've eaten up that remaining 1/32 that wasn' bored. Keep on machining the face untill you are within 1/32" of finished thickness.


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## Brian Rupnow

Good Lord, these things look monstrous when on the engine!!! I have worked all day, hoping to get both flywheels finished and Loctited to set up overnight, but I've simply ran out of steam!!! The one on the engine is finished. The other one still needs about an hours work before it can be Loctited. After they have set up for 24 hours, I will mount them on a 3/8" arbor with a keyway so that nothing slips, and do the final finish cuts on both sides and the outer diameter. These will be very light cuts, with a newly ground tool, just to merge the aluminum and steel better visually at the parting line. The outer diameter of the steel and the outer corners need some finish work to avoid cutting fingers. The one in the picture was a perfect fit. Couldn't have machined the steel outer rim any better to fit the aluminum flywheel!!! The steel rim still on the lathe---its ended up being what I would deem a "slop assed" fit.--Its about .003 oversize.  Thats what I get for not having a micrometer large enough to measure 3.625". Verniers do it to me every time. Its not really a big deal. I will take my automatic punch and punch around the o.d. of the aluminum flywheel. This will upset the metal enough that it will go from a sloppy fit to a "snug" fit, which I try to obtain, but only achieve about half the time.....


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## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow said:


> Good Lord, these things look monstrous when on the engine!!!




I like them. They look like drag slicks from the 60's.


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## jixxerbill

Keep up the great work Steve!! Looking better all the time... I want to build one of these in the worst kind of way but im going to wait till i see how difficult the centrifugal thing is that keeps the valve/valves open before I lose all hopes that I could ever build one...lol...Great work ...Bill


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## cfellows

Brian, depending on which Loctite you are using, I don't think you really need a very snug fit.  Those big flywheels ought to really make it run slow and smooth.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck--I use green 638 Loctite. Jixxerbill---My name is Brian. Did you post in the wrong thread?


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## Draw-Tech

Hi Brian

A nerve racking job I know, I turned my crank from 17-4 Stainless and used a 3 jaw chuck chucked in my 4 jaw to get the offset.

Draw-Tech


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## jixxerbill

My appologies Brian. I was in the right thread, but i called you by the wrong name. Late night and i was trying to skim thru all the threads real fast.Sorry good sir..Bill


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## Brian Rupnow

Both flywheels are finished. A ton of work, but they run true and look quite good. The mild steel mechanical tubing is 1018/1020 and is miserable stuff to get a good finish on at that large diameter in my relatively small lathe. However, 180 grit followed by 220 grit emery paper can remove a lot of surface sins. My plan all along has been to paint these flywheels when finished, as the outer rims will eventually rust from humidity in the air if left untreated.My next step will probably be to cut keyways in both ends of the crankshaft.


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## metalmad

Hi Brian
Coming along well, Your on the home streach Now 
Pete


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## Brian Rupnow

Here is an interesting comparison shot of the Odds and Ends hit and miss engine compared to the Kerzel hit and miss engine. I built the Kerzel 3 years ago, and it has a 3/4" bore and a 0.8" stroke. The Odds and Ends engine has a 1" bore and a 1 3/8" stroke. The Kerzel has 3 1/2" diameter flywheels, while the Odds and Ends engine has 5" diameter flywheels. There is a big visual difference when you see the two engines side by side.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/brian-builds-kerzel-hit-miss-i-c-10091/


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## Brian Rupnow

metalmad said:


> Hi Brian
> Coming along well, Your on the home streach Now
> Pete


Thanks for having a look mate!!! I check out you V8 project every time you post, and your work impresses me greatly. The only casting I have ever done was working with castable resins, about 40 years ago, making car club plaques.


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## Brian Rupnow

Today I am in "recovery mode" from the great flywheel thrash. I have been warned by goodwife to not get all dirty running those "machines in the basement", as we have to attend a birthday party this afternoon for an old friend who just turned 100 years old. Being the sort of guy who can take a hint, I've ran no machines today!!! I have spent the morning doing up the carburetor/exhaust/valve body for this engine in 3D cad. This helps me to figure out what I am going to do next, and gives me a better understanding of how it all fits together.------and keeps goodwife happy.--Don't get very dirty doing cad work.


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## starnovice

Nice rendering, but then that is your profession. 

Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

In keeping with my theme of doing at least one thing each day, I came home from the birthday party and did-----one thing!!! I machined the keyways into the crankshaft. This sounds easy, but the problem is, "How the heck do you hold something like this??"  You have to hang onto one end in the vice, and machine the other end which sticks out what seems like a mile, unsupported. I don't use an endmill for keycutting. I use a woodruff key cutter, which gives a much more accurate keyway. On the first keyway, I backed up the shaft with an angle plate opposite the cutter to help curb the sideways deflection. This created some problems of its own, so the other end was cut while just sticking out into space. It did deflect a little bit, but I just took 3 or 4 "spring cuts" when I had reached the depth I wanted, and when it quit cutting I was done. They turned out good, and I have already fitted the flywheels and stuck a piece of 3/32 square key in to make sure I had cut deep enough, and its okay. How was the 100 year old guy at the birthday party??--Physically, great!!! Mentally---not so much. He was very pleased to have everyone attend his party, posed for about a thousand pictures, and got a speech from the reeve and a letter from the prime minister. I'm not sure he really recognized anyone there, but he had a great time.


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## Brian Rupnow

This engine has a rather interesting fabricated ignition point set up on it. It is attached with a clamp bolt to the extended hub of one of the crankshaft bearings. It has an extended handle on it, and by rotating the handle (and consequently the entire bracket) you can alter the ignition timing while the engine is running.---as long as the clamp bolt isn't clamped too tightly. I'm not sure whether this is a good feature, a bad feature, or just a unique feature that doesn't do that much, but its interesting, and I haven't seen that before.---Brian


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## Tom Jamboretz

When I made this engine, I made the points similar to the drawing. Takes alot of time but sure is a nice feature. I did make one change and that was soldering points from a set of auto points to the contacts.


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## Brian Rupnow

Today was one of those "bits and pieces" days. Hiding just inboard from the one mounted flywheel is the ignition cam. At the other end of the crankshaft you can see the sliding spool that the governor arms move back and forth, and laying on the bench next to the other unmounted flywheel is the bracket from which the governor arms pivot. I managed to fit these parts in between taking goodwife out to lunch and having granddaughters over for a sleep-over tonight. The youngest granddaughter shows a lot of promise---she comes down to Poppa's machine shop and wants to know what the different machines are and what they do. The older granddaughter is far more interested in helping grandma in the kitchen.


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## starnovice

It's fun having the grandkids in the shop (sometimes).  I let my 7 year old grandson turn the cranks on the milling machine while watching the DRO.  It's how I taught him about numbers when he was only 5.  I also let him polish pieces on the lathe using sanding boards, under very close supervision.  

Of course, I make sure he is wearing ear protection and full goggles. At his height his eyes are right inline with the swarf and other flying objects.  Today I don't even have to remind him and he will yell at me if I turn the machine on before he feels he is completely ready.

Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

Four little parts made today. These are the weights for the centrifugal governor. However, don't let the little size fool you. There is still a lot of work there. This is one of the times I would have liked to speak with Philip Duclos and ask him why he made such a simple thing so complicated. Maybe its just the difference in machine designers, but I would simply have tapped each side of the weights for a #2-56 screw, instead of the sliding rod design that he has. Those screws anchor the tension springs between the governor weights. At any rate, his drawings are accurate and easy to follow. I redraw them anyways, because he dimensioned everything in 64ths, 32nds, and 16ths. It s hard to find those fractions on any of my equipment, so by redrawing them they get converted to decimals, which I can work with.


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## cfellows

I found those little sliding adjustments on the governor weights to be a waste of effort.  It's just as easy to stretch or cut off the spring as required to get the right speed.  I wound up just using one spring to get the engine to run as slow as possible without the spring being so loose it flies off from centrifugal force.

Chuck


----------



## Cogsy

Brian Rupnow said:


> This engine has a rather interesting fabricated ignition point set up on it. It is attached with a clamp bolt to the extended hub of one of the crankshaft bearings. It has an extended handle on it, and by rotating the handle (and consequently the entire bracket) you can alter the ignition timing while the engine is running.---as long as the clamp bolt isn't clamped too tightly. I'm not sure whether this is a good feature, a bad feature, or just a unique feature that doesn't do that much, but its interesting, and I haven't seen that before.---Brian


 
Metal Butcher used a similar setup to make an adjustable hall sensor for his Upshur engines, and I imagine it's a good idea (so I'm stealing it for my Upshurs as well ).
If I've done this right this link should get you to the post I was talking about - number 238 on page 24 if I've done it wrong..

Not sure if I've said it already, but I'm loving this build and finding lots of inspiration to get on with mine Thm:.


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## Brian Rupnow

These are the little guys that always give me heart spasms. They are the arms for the centrifugal governor, and they are so small that they are hard to see, let alone work on. You can only get them "close" using conventional machining techniques. Then it is fit and file and emery cloth untill they free up and work in tandem with all the other parts. These are still not finished. They require a bit of 4 jaw work in the lathe, then get soldered to the weights in the previous post.


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## Brian Rupnow

This was an afternoon of mucking about with itsy bitsy pieces. I managed to get everything silver soldered together without too much mess, then cleaned up and fitted/installed. I have shown the governor weights and arms at both maximum amnd minimum travel, from both sides of the flywheel. That spool that the ends of the arms engage in slides back and forth about a total of 5/32" on the crankshaft. The other slot in the spool is where the lockout arm for the exhaust valve fits into. The tension springs which hold the weights in the closed position are not yet installed, but you can see the #2-56 tapped holes in the sides of the weights..


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## Brian Rupnow

The name of the game today, was Rocker Arm!!! I love the look of brass on an engine, for the contrast, and I find it lovely stuff to machine. I only dislike brass when I have to BUY it. Fortunately there were enough left over bits and bobs in my brass drawer to make up the two piece rocker arm, and a couple of bits of 3/16" cold rolled, one for the pivot shaft, and one silver soldered to the rear rocker arm for the governor latch lever to interact with. I still have to make a very small cam follower wheel that is attached to the end of the rocker arm that hides in behind the flywheel.


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## Brian Rupnow

This morning, after some rather "delicate" work, I made up the steel cam follower and shoulder bolt. You can see the cam follower in contact with the single cam lobe in one picture. I chickened out on making the shoulder bolt---simply too small for me. I cheated by machining the correct size of shoulder (.156" diameter), drilling it 0.109", and loctiting it onto a #4-40 socket head cap screw. The cam follower seems to turn freely by finger pressure. I have also included a picture of the rocker arm with the cam follower and governor latch post assembled to it. Now----I am in deep doo doo. Last fall we recarpeted the entire house, including the stairs which lead upstairs from my basement workshop. We were smart enough to use an industrial type carpet on the stairs, which was a close color match with the carpet in the rest of the house. Over the course of the winter, I have made so many trips up and down the stairs that there are two very distinct "tracks" up the carpeted stairway that correspond perfectly to my shoes---and the cutting oil which has clung to the bottom of them. Yesterday I hand cleaned the stairs with an industrial cleaner. This morning I cleaned the stairs again with some kind of powder which is gauranteed to pick up oil residue from carpet fibers.---and it worked quite well. Now I am off to the shoe store to buy a pair of slip on "toe rubbers" to wear over my shoes when I'm in my shop. Wife still loves me, but it was a close thing!!!









.


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## Brian Rupnow

I made two of these little rascals this evening. The one closest to the detail drawing was made first. I didn't think it was quite good enough, so I made a second one. (farthest away)-----It turned out worse!!! To be truthfull, I am not good at these tiny parts with complex shapes. The only good thing about it is that these little engines are very foregiving.


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## starnovice

Brian,
 I know you keeping hoping to find some work, but forgive me if I say I enjoy it when you are "bored".  You turn out some great model engineering and I really appreciate the effort you put into documenting it.

Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Pat. I really didn't want to build this engine, but boredome is a terrible thing. I realized today that I don't have a great deal left to do on this engine. Tomorrow I will probably build the ignition point set up, and then basicaly all thats left is the bolt on block which consists of the carburetor, muffler, intake and exhaust valve module. This will probably take me into mid March. I'm glad you are enjoying the build, and I'm glad you stopped by and said Hi. One of the problems with documenting a build this thoroughly is that by the time you've got to the 13th or 14th page, nobody stops and says Hello. I know people still look at it every day, because the "view counter" keeps going up. Between this forum and the other forum I post on, about 23,000 people have clicked on it and had a peek.


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## cfellows

Looks like you are in the home stretch, Brian.  It's getting exciting!  

By the way, if you need to make some adjustments to the shape of the little levers you made, you can always heat them up red hot and bend them a little one way or the other.  That's what I had to do on mine.

Chuck


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## Ed

Hi Brian I have been spending a little time in the shop ( don't tell the Dr. ). I'm working on the crank now a little each day. It's good to be back even if it's a little. Keep up the good work. I am learning a lot from your build. Ed


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## Brian Rupnow

My 1" diameter cast iron rings from Coles Power Models came in the mail today, for what I consider a very reasonable price. This will be a first for me, as far as model engines are concerned. My only experience with rings comes from building engines for the hotrods I used to race. I clearly remember how little you have to deflect one of these rings, trying to install it on a piston, and SNAP---broken ring!!! Certainly hope that doesn't happen here. As some guidelines for the ring groove in the piston, Philip Duclos recomends that the ring groove be .0005 wider than the ring thickness, and the depth of groove should be .002" deeper than the thickness of the ring, in the book section about the Odds and Ends engine. Then in his section about making your own piston rings, he recommends an end gap of .004" when the ring is setting squarely in the cylinder. Do you experienced engine builders concurr with that? The bore on my engine is1.00".


----------



## Brian Rupnow

And here is the part which I hope with all of the sincerity in my black old heart becomes the basis for a workable ignition point set up. (just inboard of the ignition cam). I still have to add a piece of spring steel and an insulating bushing. Philip Duclos recommends using a section of broken hacksaw blade!!! Some people that have built this engine say that it works great. Some people say it only works with modifications, and some say it don't work at all. I know that the material cost nothing but the machining has just eaten up 5 hours out of my day. I will post a picture when I get all the small bits added to it.


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## Teza

Hi Brian,
Fantastic build as usual from you, a pleasure to follow along. From past memory those ring specs. look right, 3.875 bore chevy was about .015" gap, thats close to .004" per 1" scratch.gif
Cheers
Terry


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Teza---Its always good to hear from you folks on the other side of the world!!!---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Here is a video you will find interesting. It concerns the "home made" ignition points on the Odds and Ends engine.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I just destroyed a 3/8 end mill, a 1/2" endmill, and a 1/4" brazed carbide boring bar---trying to open up a piece of brass!! I had one of those halogen lamps with the polished brass 1" dia tube stand. There were pieces of cast brass in the ends, and I tried to salvage one of the castings to make a cylinder oil cup. I don't know what on earth is in that piece of casting, but the damned thing must be harder than a diamond. It has now cost me more in tooling than if I had just went and bought a 12" length of 3/4" brass!!! Some days-------


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## Teza

Hi Brian, nice video, points look fine to me for this sort of thing (your not expecting to do 25000 miles a year with it) no reason why it wont work and is certainly an easy way to adjust the timing. Sorry to hear about your endmills  sometimes I think that breaking endmills must be what I set out to do for the day 
Cheers
Terry


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm getting down to the nitty gritty here, and I have ran out of brass----almost. I had enough of a 3/16" brass flatbar to cut the round muffler baffle out of, and drill it on the mill, using the rotary table. Then I thought I would be smart, and attempt to mill it down to the required .093" final thickness, in the rotary table, with an endmill. That never works for me!! Oh, it mills it down all right, but it leaves "tracks" all over the surface, and no matter how hard I try, I can never get all of the "depths of cut" to come out exactly the same. What to do, what to do. Then I remembered all the postings I had seen on here about "glue chucks". Okay, using what i currently have in my arsenal, I will create a "glue chuck". I had a short piece of 1.5" diameter cast iron x about 1 1/2" long setting around. I had some epoxy glue.---YES!!! Epoxy the brass disc to the face of the cast iron. When the epoxy sets, I will chuck the cast iron in the lathe chuck, and taking light cuts with a sharp hss cutter, final finish the face of the brass part in the lathe. Then break it away from the epoxy with a little heat, then dissolve the remaining epoxy with laquer thinners. Will it work?? I'll know later today. The model shows the baffle with the holes (its purple). The picture shows the part setting on the lip of my micro furnace, setting up the epoxy.


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## Brian Rupnow

Hey!!! This glue chuck idea really works well!!! Of course, if I was smart, I'd have done it BEFORE I drilled all the holes. However, its something new that I hadn't tried before, and it does work remarkably well for thinning down stock which is already too thin to hold properly in a conventional chuck. I am very happy with the results, and will file this idea away for future use. The nice thing about it is that the stock being thinned doesn't have to be round. It can be any profile, simply glued to the end of a piece of round stock.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Well Sir!!! I survived a massive two grandchild birthday party today, and still had time to whittle out a muffler after everybody went home. Oh, I know, the screws have to be shortened, and the brass need some more polishing, but the machining per se' is done on that item. There isn't too much more I can do untill I part with some of the Rupnow gold and buy some brass for all the carburetor bits. That muffler is a really tricky bugger to machine. You get to a point no matter which way you approach it where there is nothing to hang onto for the next machining operation. Its tapered inside the same as on the outside, with a 1/16" thick wall on the tapered part. I ended up Loctiting it onto a piece of 1/4" rod just so I had something to hang onto to finish all the machining inside and out. Now---I'm going upstairs---i think there was some birthday cake left-----


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## Brian Rupnow

I just spent half the day making very small parts. The "needle" is a #2-56 x 3/4" long socket head capscrew. I find that there is no practical way to hold these things to even consider machining them. My method is to hold the head of the screw in my small 3 jaw chuck (which used to be part of a 3/8" power drill with about 2" of shank still attached) and hold this small chuck  in my lathe chuck. The head of this screw is only about .135 dia x 0.1" lg., so you can't even hold it perfectly straight, with no wobble. I get it as close as I can, and then use a small file to shape the needle and remove threads from the last 5/16" . Then a bit of 220 emery cloth held against the flat of the file to finish working it. Of course the lathe is running at about 600 rpm while I'm doing this, so its a touchy operation. Then I knurled and drilled a piece of 5/16" brass and silver soldered it to the head of the screw. The brass "seat" is tapped #2-56 inside, and there is a 0.040 hole thru the side to bleed gasoline into the venturi (which isn't built yet.) It is tested by blowing in the gas line end and slowly screwing the needle into place. It works. The needle completely shuts off the air flow when screwed down semi tight.  If I was a much better machinist with a far more accurate lathe, I would drill out the #2-56 screw and solder a sewing needle in place, but its not going to happen in this life. I know this works, because its the same method I used on the Kerzel carburetor 3 years ago.


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## Brian Rupnow

I have reached a point in this build where I am "mildly concerned"!!! Not really alarmed yet, but could be if I thought about it too much. The two remaining assemblies which have yet to be built not only entail 4 jaw chuck work (Which makes me sweat blood) but also the intake and exhaust valves which have given me tremendous pain on every I.C. engine I have built so far (This being number four). Conventional wisdom says that the more you do of anything, the better you get at it. I have just went thru all of the posts on building the Webster, the Kerzel hit and miss, and the Atkinson engine, and I really hope that conventional wisdom is correct. My God, there's a lot of pain and frustration in those build threads!!! All of those engines eventually ran, and I had a lot of advise (mostly good advice) from other forum members. This build has been remarkably painless so far, and I really hope it stays that way.----And Oh yeah, I checked, and the valve seat cutting tool which I made from tool steel for the Atkinson engine (but didn't harden) can be modified to cut the valve seats on this new engine by reducing the guide diameter from 4mm to 1/8".----Brian


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## jixxerbill

Time to pull those boot straps up and get at it Brian, I know you can do it !!!! We all pulling for you. I cant wait to see it run, then get my nerve up to try one myself... So please make it look easy as you always do...The seat grinding and valve lapping will go like clock work for you this time i promise ...Good luck to you


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## starnovice

Keep the faith Brian, I believe in you.  You will overcome your valves.

Pat


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## AussieJimG

Sounds like you are suffering Pre-traumatic Stress Syndrome. I cope by starting late in the day so I can have a soothing libation afterwards while reflecting on the outcome. Works for me. The early part of the day is given to procrastination.

Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

The floor in my little machine shop was awash with nervous sweat today, but I persevered!!! TWO set ups in the 4 jaw and a lot of breath holding yielded the intake valve body. Near as I can tell, it turned out okay. I had to stop right in the middle of the job and drive across town to a tool shop and buy a new 1/8" reamer. The part I machined today is the red colored part in the 3D model. I haven't machined the valve seat into the part yet. I will use my valve seating tool to do that by hand.


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## Rivergypsy

Nice work, Brian - the ol' 4 jaws aren't too bad are they


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## Brian Rupnow

The 4 jaw work is all finished---And I'm very proud and pleased that it all went okay!!! Everyone was right---It does get easier with practice. One of my customers called me in today with some real work, so progress may slow down a bit. I still have to make valves, and cut ring grooves on the piston for the two cast iron rings that I purchased.


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## starnovice

Brian Rupnow said:


> ... One of my customers called me in today with some real work, so progress may slow down a bit. ...



Oh man, I put the jinx on you.  Oh well you probably need some money for more supplies.   Good luck with the job.

Pat


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## Brian Rupnow

I came home today at noon and wanted to build something easy. There aren't very many easy things left to do, but I needed a cylinder oil cup and control needle valve so thats how I spent my afternoon. Now I'm off to the denturist to pick up new upper and lower false teeth. This has been an ongoing process for the last 3 months with impressions, more impressions, and fittings. The last time I was over there for a final fitting he gave me a hand mirror, and my God, I thought I was looking at a crocodile!!! I don't remember ever having that many teeth of my own, at least not all at the same time. My youth took a terrible toll on my natural teeth.--Between fist fights, car accidents, and too many candies, I had my first upper plate when I was 21.  Watch for me---I may be a guest star on "Wild Kingdom"!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

This morning I made the intake and exhaust valves and ground the seats, using 600 grit carborundum past, by hand. After a thourough cleaning, I coated the intake valve and the intake seat with layout dye, and after it had dried for half an hour, I applied a bit more 600 grit and lightly ground the intake again. I think that the annular contact ring where the contact point wore the layout dye away on both the valve and the seat is visible in this picture. Its a nice round continuous ring, with no gaps, and it passes the old "blow by mouth" test and doesn't seem to leak at all. Of course, valves have fooled me before.


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## Brian Rupnow

And ditto, the exhaust valve. Perfect contact ring all around on both valve and valve seat. Its harder to see clearly on the exhaust valve, because the seat is down inside the housing about half way. I'm sure you have figured it out by now that I haven't parted the valves off from the parent stock. I do it this way so I will have something to hold onto when I grind (or lap if you prefer) the seats and valve faces. The calves are made from 1018/1020 mild cold rolled steel.


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## Brian Rupnow

I am in final assembly phase this morning. Just now getting to the piston rings. Book states "With ring setting squarely in cylinder bore, end gap of ring should be 0.004" as checked with feeler gauge". Ring is in there. Gap is dead nuts on both rings as checked by yours truly!!! Now if we can get the grooving tool ground properly and cut ring grooves in the piston and then install the rings without breaking them-----


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## Brian Rupnow

Ring grooves have been added to piston and rings installed. A LOT of breath holding and very light pressure and lots of lube oil!!!


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## cfellows

Holdin' my breath, here, Brian.  Won't be long now!

Chuck


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## cheepo45

Nice work, Brian. I've had the Phillip Duclos book for years and read it many times. I have learned a lot from it, although I haven't built any of his engines yet. I did sucessfully make several piston rings using his instructions. They are running now in my Upshur farm engine. Keep up the good work and thank you for documenting this build so well.
                     Cheepo45


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## Brian Rupnow

As Ringo says "You know it don't come easy!!!" Tried to insert the piston into the cylinder---It wouldn't go. The ring grooves weren't cut deep enough in the piston. Carefully took the rings off, machined the grooves deeper--Put the rings back on. The cylinder goes in (with much carefull persuasion)---No broken rings (yet). Piston will go to within .100 of TDC and hangs up--won't go any farther. Disconnect con rod, pull piston, determine that there is a tight spot in the cylinder---right at the far (blind) end. Scratch head, time out--Sat in Lazy Boy, had stiff drink. Decided that the only way to take out tight spot is with a lap and coarse cutting compound. Made lap--Used some of the automotive valve grinding compound I bought 3 years ago at NAPA which is far, far, to course to grind tiny valves but good for tight spots in cylinders. Didn't want to lap the rest of the bore, so squeezed coarse compound in thru sparkplug hole and inserted clean lap so that only the last 1/2" of the bore got lapped. It worked, but very scary indeed. Locked lap in 3 jaw, ran lathe on lowest speed (115 RPM)--held onto cylinder and water jacket and worked it back and forth about 1/4" for slow count of 100.--Being ready the whole time to just let the damn thing go if it started to lock up.---Didn't want to spend time going round and round on lathe chuck. All turned out well. Piston is reinserted, everything goes round and round. New rings make TREMENDOUS difference in power required to turn engine over. Tomorrow I will soak everything with oil and run the motor in for an hour with electric drill to seat the rings and get rid of the drag.


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## Generatorgus

Brian, We're rooting for you, good luck.

GUS


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## Brian Rupnow

Running in engine video.


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## Brian Rupnow

Things are currently going together for what I can only hope is the final assembly. The two hours of "running in" in the lathe, 1 hour at 115 RPM, 1/2 hour at 210 RPM and 1/2 hour at 350 RPM has made an incredible difference in the effort required to turn the engine over. Its now back to roughly the same resistance as it had before the rings were installed. I kept everything well soaked with oil during the entire "run in" time. Here is a little tip, which has been mentioned before, but it works so slick that its worth mentioning again. If you drew or modelled your engine with any kind of CAD system, then print out any surfaces which need gaskets at 1:1 scale, glue them to your preferred gasket material (I use cereal box cardboard) and cut them out with scissors and a home made gasket punch. The two shown are for the interface between the intake and exhaust valve bodies, and the interface between the valve body and the water jacket/cylinder. Nothing will get hot enough on this engine to damage the cardboard.


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## Brian Rupnow

A little "something something" to replace all of the 1/16" drill bits that I have used as pivot shafts for my counterwight arms and lock out lever. Nothing too exotic here. The steel pin goes through the pivotting bits and the brass collar goes on the other end with a dap of green Loctite.


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## Brian Rupnow

The engine is finished!!! It looks great. Oh, the base and a gas tank are still outstanding, but I'm not going to bother with them untill the engine runs. Will it run???????????? Thats the $64,000 question. The compression seems rather anemic, but it will stop when it comes up on compression if you flip it by hand. If (when) I get it to run, I know that the compression will increase dramatically. Thats the way all my other engines have been. I am not going to bore you with the next (trying to get it to run) part. That will be just a lot of hard slogging, tweaking, hoping, cursing---you know the routine. When its up and running, I will post some more, and hopefully, a video. Thanks ever so much for following my thread, for the constructive comments, and for helping out when I needed a bit of technical advice or a bit of encouragement.----Brian


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## jixxerbill

Great job Brian. Thanks so much for the pics and the explaining how you done things. I cant wait to see it run. Bill


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## mikegw1961

Brian

Best of luck and lets hope it starts first time.

Mike


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## aonemarine

Nice work Brian..  How about a Video of trying to get it to start the first time?


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## Brian Rupnow

Aonemarine---They NEVER start the first time!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Thank you, Thank you to whoever gave this thread a 5 star rating.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

The plans call for a .013 dia. music wire spring with 12 coils and an inside diameter of 1/4"+ for the intake valve. I took a chance on an "off the shelf" spring from the hardware store that was .020 dia. wire, but its too stiff. If the spring is too stiff, the vacuum created when the piston moves down on the intake stroke won't be enough to overcome the spring tension, and the atmospheric intake valve won't open. I have a piece of .015 music wire I picked up yesterday at the local hobby shop (the smallest they had), so I am about to wind a spring from it. If it is still too heavy, I will visit a music store tomorrow and buy a guitar string of .013" diameter. As much as I want to rush ahead and try to start this engine, I have learned through my previous 3 i.c. builds that this stuff has to all be looked after BEFORE I try and start the engine.


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## jixxerbill

Not trying to get in your business Brian but there is a good information in the link below. If the wire you bought dont work maybe some of this will help. Keep scrolling to the bottom of the pages till you get to the page on tuning springs or tweaking them it says i think. My fingers are crossed for you..Bill

http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/intro.html


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Bill--Springwinding is pretty straightforeward stuff once you've been shown how. A man called "Deanofid" did an excellent tutorial on this forum a few years ago. There is an element of guesswork in "freewinding" onto a mandrel. I needed a spring just slightly bigger than 1/4" inside dia. so I wound it on a 1/4" mandrel. When the pressure was released, it sprang to 3/8" inside. So---I wound another on a 1/8" mandrel. When released, it jumped to 3/16" inside. So---then I wound it on a 3/16" mandrel, and it ended up perfect, about 17/64" inside. I won't heat treat this spring, it will be fine for its purpose without heat treat. If it eventually loses its compressibility, I will wind another and heat treat it.


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## AussieJimG

A friend has recently recommended stainless steel fishing tackle trace which seems to come in the right sizes. I have not tried this yet but he reckons it works so I intend to use it for valve springs in the next week or so.

Jim


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## RonGinger

You can take some of the guess work out of springs if you look in MACHINERY HANDBOOK. There is a table with mandrel diameters and wire diameters that tell you what size to use to get a specific ID. In my experience its pretty accurate. I wont offer a page number because it will depend on your edition.


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## Brian Rupnow

People are asking for a blow by blow description of the initial start up of this engine. Are you MAD!!!! The next few days will be a lot of things. It will be a confusion of cobbled up electrical wires---No need for them to be made neat and pretty untill the engine actually runs. It will be a time of "borrowed parts " from other engines---i.e. the gas tank off my Webster--again, no need to build a pretty dedicated gas tank if the engine never runs. The counterweights are wrapped with swaths of masking tape to keep them from operating. I don't have time to fool around with the intricacies of hit and miss mechanisms untill I see if the damned engine will fire in normal mode. I have a can of quick start ether. I have a fire extinguisher mounted on the wall beside me. I have warned my good wife to not be alarmed at the sound of explosions or curses drifting up the stairwell from the basement, but to be prepared to call 911 if everything goes totally cock-a-hoop. These are the times that turn lap dogs into ravening monsters, and put good Christian boys like myself in danger of their mortal soul.---And people want to see this in living colour with video as it happens!!! Here is my best offer---This is all the pics you get of the "just before" sequence. From here on we go into "black out" untill we have an operating engine. If you never hear from me again, you will know the engine never actually ran, and that I have taken up pole dancing as a hobby.----Brian


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## Teza

I'm getting excited Brian Just one question, do you have an earth wire from your engine frame to the coil mount/case? Can't see it in the pictures
Have Fun
Terry


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## Brian Rupnow

Terry---It doesn't need one. Electricity flows from the battery positive post to the + side of the coil. Then from the - side of the coil to the points, then through the points to the engine block. A wire runs from the engine block to the negative post on the battery. Thats all it takes to complete the primary circuit. When the points open and the primary field collapses, that "excites" the secondary coil for the 20,000 volt spark that follows out the spark plug wire to the plug, jumps the spark gap to the portion of sparkplug that is screwed in to the engine block, then follows the same wire back to the negative side of the battery as the primary circuit uses. I've got lots of good spark. I did go down town this morning and buy a condenser to wire into the points. When the primary field collapses as the points open, the collapse also "excites" a current flow in the primary windings that will backflow through the points, causing them to arc and burn out quickly if they don't have a condenser wired in. My problems this morning are the same problems I've had with every i.c. engine I have built--Low, poor compression. I have already had the valve bodies apart and relapped the valves, then reassembled with new gaskets and permatex gasket cement, but its leaking compression thru the exhaust valve. I'm about to quit for the day now, as I can only handle so much frustration at one setting.---Brian .


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## canadianhorsepower

> but its leaking compression thru the exhaust valve. I'm about to quit for the day now, as I can only handle so much frustration at one setting


 
Good work Brian. 
is I can give you a little trick to prevent you from taking your head appart.
Clean your valves and seats
mark your valve seat with a lead pencil and then turn them with your finger in their seats, a few turn will do
If you look at your valve seat and valve face you should have a nice small dark line all the way around wher your valve is
matting your seat.
when you see this you can bet that they are not leaking

good luck


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## AussieJimG

Still here and looking forward to the noisy bit.

Thank you so much for the thread. I am a bit sad now that it is coming to an end.

But I am sure there will be more.

Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Luc---See posts 149 and 150.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> Luc---See posts 149 and 150.


 
Yes I've seen those but them thickness of that blu stuff is about 
100 time more then pencil lead

If your willing to go more precise then lead

use "suit" or carbon not sure how you call it. you know the black smoke
from an oil lamp or a lighter and your line will be about 10 to 20 thou
wide max

cheers


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Okay Luc--I will give the lead pencil or soot a try. With a bit of CAD magic, you can see a cross section taken through the exhaust valve body and the exhaust valve. The threaded outlet on the left side is where the muffler screws into. The hole in the right side is the port which leads into the cylinder. The big hole up top is plugged by the intake valve assembly when its all put together. I believe (and this is only conjecture at this point) that the seat area is too close to the port into the cylinder. I THINK this causes some distortion of the seat area which causes the leak. The head of the valve is .375" diameter. The stem is .125" diameter. The hole that the head of the valve sets in is .437" diameter, cut with a .437 endmill to achieve the flat bottom. The 45 degree seat is cut with a manual seating tool which is guided by a "nose" that fits into the valve guide, to ensure concentricity. The exhaust valve body is a complex part, which I seriously do not want to make over again. I think the valve is fine too.  I think there is enough room between the seat and the outlet to the muffler, that I can set this part up in the mill, line it up with a 7/16" dowel in the mill chuck to be perfectly concentric, and shove that .437 counterbore down another .030". That will get rid of the existing seat, leaving me an area in which I can recut a new seat. The valve will set a bit lower in the housing, but there is lots of adjustment in the rocker arm to accomodate that.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian 
are you cutting your seat at 44 degree and valve at 45 this will put your matting surface right in the middle
Hope it's help you
cheers


----------



## Brian Rupnow

canadianhorsepower said:


> Brian
> are you cutting your seat at 44 degree and valve at 45 this will put your matting surface right in the middle
> Hope it's help you
> cheers


Well actually Luc--I cut the seat at 45 degrees because thats the angle at which I made my manual valve seat cutter, and cut the valve at 46 degrees because I can manually adjust my lathe compound to whatever angle I want.


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## starnovice

Brian,
This is a question and not a suggestion.  I know from reading all of your builds that you have dealt with a lot of issues with the valves.  Do you find the spring strength on the exhaust valve to be as critical as it is on the input?

Thanks
Pat


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> Well actually Luc--I cut the seat at 45 degrees because thats the angle at which I made my manual valve seat cutter, and cut the valve at 46 degrees because I can manually adjust my lathe compound to whatever angle I want.


 
this could be your persisting problem If  your valve angle is smaller then the seat44 to 45 it will sit at the top then you have to reduce your valve diameter to go and sit in the middle of the seat.The opposite is also true
th best thing is a 3 degree valve cut
one cutter 3 angle GOOD LUCK or 3 different cutter
here a picture that should explain it all
sure enought on a stationary engine it's not a must but it's sucess


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Luc---There really is no difference between a seat at 44 degrees and a valve at 45 and that of a seat at 45 degrees and a valve at 46 degrees. My effective engagement line on the valve is almost exactly in the middle of the 46 degree area, exactly where I want it to be.--Again I refer you to the posts 149 and 150 where you can see the engagement line on the valve. And good luck getting a 3 angle grind on a valve seat area that is at most .025" wide!!!  Pat--The spring on the exhaust valve has very little criticallity compared to the intake valve. Since there is a mechanical rocker arm which lifts the exhaust valve, it is best to err on the side of "strong" as opposed to "weak" on the exhaust valve. The intake valve though, is a whole different story. It depends on atmospheric pressure (or if you prefer it "vaccuum") to open the intake so it has to be "weak"---but still strong enough to close the valve adequately when the piston is coming up on compression stroke.


----------



## canadianhorsepower

> Luc---There really is no difference between a seat at 44 degrees and a valve at 45 and that of a seat at 45 degrees and a valve at 46 degrees. My effective engagement line on the valve is almost exactly in the middle of the 46 degree area, exactly where I want it to be.--Again I refer you to the posts 149 and 150 where you can see the engagement line on the valve


 
There is a difference other wise it would be the same angle. yes you did a great job centering it
all I can sugest you is try it with a pencil or suit ans notice the difference. Suit is so precise that's
what they are using as a thickness gauge for fire arm
cheers


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I have reached what my dictionary describes as an "im'passe"--"position, situation from which there is no escape; deadlock"!!! I have relapped the valves, starting with 350 grit, then 400 grit, then 600 grit, then toothpaste. I have compression.--In fact, on a free spin by hand, it bounces back from the compression stroke. HOWEVER-- this is when piston and valve bodies have a light coating of lubricating oil. When I try to start it, the Coleman fuel (which is tarted up naptha gas, so they can charge more for it) refuses to fire. Then, after not firing, it has the audacity to wash away all my lubricating oil, right down to the point where all sliding and sealing surfaces are metal to metal. Then of course, my compression drops off dramatically. I have a bright blue spark at the sparkplug, and it is firing at the correct time in the cycle. The exhaust valve is timed correctly, and I have rotated the engine by hand and carefully watched it go through all the four cycles, intake, compression, power, and exhaust. All of the appropriate things move at the appropriate time. Checked with a feeler gauge, there is clearance between the end of the exhaust valve stem and the rocker arm when the rocker is off the cam.  I have wound a new spring from .015" music wire for the intake valve and have a fairly stiff spring on the exhaust valve to assure that it pulls the valve closed properly. I am running out of options at the moment, and that is what made me ask about propane for a fuel in another post. At least with propane, if the engine floods, its not going to wash away all of my lubricating oil. These are the times that try model engine builders souls, and I have went through this with every single one of the internal combustion engines I have built (and ran succesfully, this is my fourth engine.) I'm not sure where I'm going next with this, but I will keep you posted.---Brian


----------



## starnovice

Brian Rupnow said:


> ... Pat--The spring on the exhaust valve has very little criticallity compared to the intake valve. Since there is a mechanical rocker arm which lifts the exhaust valve, it is best to err on the side of "strong" as opposed to "weak" on the exhaust valve. The intake valve though, is a whole different story. It depends on atmospheric pressure (or if you prefer it "vaccuum") to open the intake so it has to be "weak"---but still strong enough to close the valve adequately when the piston is coming up on compression stroke.



Thank you - Pat


----------



## cfellows

Brian, I know what you're going through.  Makes you want to throw the whole mess up against a brick wall and go have a stiff drink!

One thing I do when I can't get an engine to fire is hook it up to an electric motor so I can keep it turning over while I mess with the fuel mixture.  I start with the needle valve closed then start opening it a little bit at a time.  A very slight turn of the needle valve can make a big difference.  Even with poor compression I should think you could get something to go bang!

Chuck


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## canadianhorsepower

[quote  Even with poor compression I should think you could get something to go bang!

][/quote]
if his flywheel are very heavy and compression a bit low..
could it be that it does not generate enought power to create a momentum???


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm turning it using my electric drill and a special quick disconnect adapter I made to turn the motor. The weight of the flywheels is not an issue. Its not firing at all. Not even a miserable little "pop".


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## aonemarine

Trick to starting old worn out low comppression engines,  Warm the cylinder and bring it to temp before starting.
  You might also want to consder a mix of methyl alchol and 2 stroke oil for first fire up.


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## aonemarine

You say you have spark, is this just testing at the plug wire or have you pulled the plug to make sure its jumping the gap?


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## Brian Rupnow

aonemarine said:


> Trick to starting old worn out low comppression engines,  Warm the cylinder and bring it to temp before starting.
> You might also want to consder a mix of methyl alchol and 2 stroke oil for first fire up.


Thats interesting. How much 2 stroke oil to how much alcohol?


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## Brian Rupnow

aonemarine said:


> You say you have spark, is this just testing at the plug wire or have you pulled the plug to make sure its jumping the gap?


Thats spark with the plug laying on the block.


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## aonemarine

40:1 mix     warm the cylinder up too, helps fuel to vaporize. Once fired up and run for a bit you should be able to start cold, provided everything is seated in...


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## Brian Rupnow

cfellows said:


> Brian, I know what you're going through.  Makes you want to throw the whole mess up against a brick wall and go have a stiff drink!
> 
> One thing I do when I can't get an engine to fire is hook it up to an electric motor so I can keep it turning over while I mess with the fuel mixture.  I start with the needle valve closed then start opening it a little bit at a time.  A very slight turn of the needle valve can make a big difference.  Even with poor compression I should think you could get something to go bang!
> 
> Chuck


Chuck--How fast do you run it with the electric motor, and how do you connect the motor to the engine. The electric drill trick works great, but I run out of hands--One to hold the drill, one to tweak the carburetor, one to scratch my xxx. Most of my motors are 1725 RPM which is way, way to fast. Do you have a low rpm motor or run it through a gearbox?  I have even thought about incorporating an over-running clutch bearing so that when the engine "catches" and takes off, it can run faster than whatever motor is driving it. My mind goes to a lot of funny places in the final stages of one of these engine builds.---Brian


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## aonemarine

Brian,  did you try the change in fuel yet??


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---You were right. I donkeyied it up with a v-belt pulley in place of the one flywheel and a second v-pulley on my vari-speed drill, and an old v-belt. Motor took right off firing like a trooper after about 30 seconds of running with the drill. I don't have anything set up good enough to take a picture, but your advise helped a lot. Thank You!!!---Brian ----Still running same fuel.


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## starnovice

Congratulations!!


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## aonemarine

Congratulations,   were looking forward to the video..


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## metalmad

Cool congrats
Pete


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm not sure that congratulations are called for yet----but thanks. You kind of have to picture this.---Engine is bolted to my reference table in my office. The non-governor flywheel has been replaced with a 3" v-belt pulley. The electric drill has a 2 1/2" pulley mounted on a stub arbor. I want to see if the drill has enough guts to drive things this way, so I'm holding the drill in two hands with the belt loose, and just before I fire up the drill I figure "Oh Hell, may as well hook up the battery wire!!!" I start the drill, pull the belt tight, and the engine starts to turn over---and almost immediately starts to fire POP-POP-POP!!! This surprises me to no end, but I can't let go of the drill because it takes two hands to keep the belt tight. I let go of the drill with one hand to twiddle with the throttle valve, but then I can't keep the belt tight with only one hand on the drill, and the motor stops. I repeat this about 3 times--UNBELIEVABLE!!! Then I decide that I need to make a more stable set up with the drill bolted to the table in its "holder/stand (remember the sawmill video). Tomorrow may be an exciting day.


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## canadianhorsepower

Congrat Brian Thm:

so you wont be POLL DANCING ****Rof}Rof}


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## johwen

Hello Brian,
You've done a fine job to date so don't give up! If you have good compression, fuel at the carburetor and a good hot spark the engine should start reasonably easy. Have you checked the exhaust valve timing and the ignition timing. If it is pop-popping it could easily be ignition or valve timing. I would start with about 10 degrees advance on the ignition and about 50 degrees before BDC for the exhaust valve opening. Is the engine reasonably free at this stage? Will it bounce of compression?
Hope these tips help but you have probably addressed these issues by Now!
Cheers.
johwen


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## Brian Rupnow

So here we are, all set up and ready to rock and roll tomorrow morning. Don't be alarmed about the rats nest of wires---I know where they all go, and they will all be tacked down and taped up before I try to start anything. ( I have been witness to loose wiring getting caught up in revolving parts before, and it isn't pretty!!!) Wish me luck!! See ya tomorrow.---Brian


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## aonemarine

Tune in tomorrow for another cliff hanger on "As the fly wheel turns".....


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## cfellows

Sorry not to get back to you sooner, Brian, but congratulations on getting some results.

I've used a 90v DC motor powered by a variac to give me variable speed.  I used micro size V-Belt, only about 3/16" wide and thick with a 1.25" home made pulley on the motor.  Just wrapped the belt around the flywheel which is 5" in diameter.  With the reduction, the engine was spinning at around 300 - 400 RPM.  

Looks like what you've got will work fine.  Only suggestion would be to get a smaller v-belt or use a flat belt, like a timing belt, that you can just wrap around the flywheel and use a flanged pulley on the motor to keep the belt tracking.

Once you get the motor running steadily, you can use the electric motor as a generator!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck--I considered all the rotary power sources I have, and I don't have much!! I have the lathe, which is a possibility, but there is a lot of "secondary" stuff ---gas tank, coil, etcetera which have to be in close proximity to the engine. I have the electric drill in the picture plus a second battery powered drill, and an old 1725 rpm half horse electric motor that I bought at a yard sale. What I have cobbled up will work---I've already proved that to myself. Looking at it now, it would be nice to have built a lever type mechanism to slack off the belt once the engine begins to run under its own power, to isolate it from the drill motor. I know I could easily design and build something like that, but when you only build one or two engines a year, it hardly seems worth it. If I wanted to, I could probably fill my entire house with "One time use contraptions." I don't really want to go down that road. Once I get the engine running and firing with some regularity, I'll put the flywheel back on and revert to my "adapter" which fits in my battery operated drill and use that to start the engine. I'll have to check out the "micro sized" v-belt.


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## Teza

Thought I heard a popping sound (was it the engine or your heart beating harder with excitment ) keep at it Brian we are all on your side.

Terry


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## metalmad

cool starter ;D
Pete


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## Brian Rupnow

No joy yet. I did manage to go to the local vaccuum cleaner repair joint and find a nice flat belt so I can run it on my flywheel rather than on the v-pulley. I made up a flanged pulley from 2" round aluminum for the electrric drill. the engine definitly is firing and getting warm. Just not taking off on its own yet. I added some 2 stroke oil to the coleman fuel.


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## AussieJimG

If you have compression, and  you still have spark under compression (when the required voltage is higher) and the intake valve is opening and you are getting fuel into the cylinder because it is washing away the lubrication then it HAS to be mixture - just thinking out loud as I am sure you have done.

Did you try EZY-start (or whatever it is called over there - it is sold as Start-Ya-Bastard over here)?

Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Hi Jim---Yes, I've tried the "Quick start" but it doesn't have that much effect. I have all kinds of spark. Intake valve is cycling open and close---I can see it dancing when the motor is turning over, driven by the drill/belt arrangement. It kinda makes a noise like a duck farting when I turn the engine over by hand. Engine is firing, somewhat inconsistently, but not real badly as it is being driven. Trying to think of what I've done differently on this engine.--I am using cast iron rings for the first time instead of Viton o-rings, but that shouldn't be a factor--in fact, with the carb and valve body off, If I put my finger over the sparkplug hole and the inlet hole, it will bounce back when you flip the flywheel. My other hit and miss engine uses a home made carburetor. My webster and my Atkinson both use model airplane carbs. I am not really sure I have done a great job on the needle valve.--In fact I phoned all the hobby shops that I can get to to see if anybody had a needle valve with a #2-56 Imperial thread on it, but of course nobody did. I'm kinda stuck right now, not knowing what to do next. I was just taking a look at the valve body/carb on my Webster, wondering if it would fit this Odds and Ends engine. Probably a different bolt pattern, although the basic set-up is the same.


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## aonemarine

How much spring tension is on that points set??  Seemed to me to be a strange and maybe lite on the return, but im new to this.


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## Brian Rupnow

aonemarine said:


> How much spring tension is on that points set??  Seemed to me to be a strange and maybe lite on the return, but im new to this.


Lots of spring tension there. Remember, thats a piece of tempered steel hacksaw blade.--If it wasn't working properly, I wouldn't have good spark at the sparkplug.


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## starnovice

A "out of the blue" thought just in case it generates a sensible thought --  maybe you can use double sided tape to stick one of your other carbs on just to test your theory about the needle valve.

Good luck we are all rooting for you.


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## Brian Rupnow

The engine is  spinning quite freely now after all of this running trying to get it started. I do notice that when I block off the intake and exhaust ports with the fingers of one hand and flip the flywheel with my other hand, I can hear some air escaping out the end of the cylinder. This would never happen with viton o-rings. Could be that there is just enough compression lost past the cast iron rings to prevent ignition??? I have just checked, and the entire valve body and carb off the Webster (which I know runs good) will fit right onto this engine if I tapped two more holes in the water jacket/cylinder. I have checked everything else, and now I'm looking at alternate 'fixes' to get up and running.  I have the choice of machining a new piston with a Viton o-ring, which would absolutely stop any air loss past the piston, or---I could mount the whole valve body/manifold/carburetor set up off the Webster onto this engine to prove/dissprove any thoughts about compression loss at the valves, or the efficiency of my home made carburetor. (The one on the Webster is a Traxxas airplane carb).


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## aonemarine

Be nice if you could just take a piece of rubber and clamp it on rather than having to drill and tap holes...


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## canadianhorsepower

> I can hear some air escaping out the end of the cylinder. This would never happen with viton o-rings. Could be that there is just enough compression lost past the cast iron rings to prevent ignition


 
I think you might have to use a leak down tester for accurate reading. If you dont have one take your comp/ratio x 14.7
ex 5.1= 5x14.7=73.5 lbs
pring your piston down both valve close and put 73 or close lbs of air in your cylinder were your spark plug is.
use the old soap and water "if needed" to find your leak

good luck


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## aonemarine

Pull the piston and inspect the ring for wear pattern?? The fact the compression came up when you put oil in it is a good indicator that the ring wasnt sealing, but I would have expected it to seat in after a bit... Man these engines are only 5:1 c/r??
  I need to build one just so I can share the pain....


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## jixxerbill

Just thinking out loud here but I would hold off on mounting another carb and check compression more. Reason I'm think that is if you used starting fluid and it didnt make much difference, I would lean more towards a compression problem. Just a thought, I have used starting fluid more times than could be counted and if everything is good except fuel it will actually run of of starting fluid. It's not good for them to run on it but it will do it. Wishing you luck.  Bill.


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## doc1955

Are you sure the timing is right I remember building this and recall I had to retard the timing quite a bit at first and after running awhile it has become a good little running engine.
http://youtu.be/a1-gSRgTfZs


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## Brian Rupnow

This engine, like the Webster, has only one "port" at the top of the cylinder. That single port connects to a valve body, which incorporates the intake valve and guide, the exhaust valve and guide, the muffler, and the carburetor. By swapping out the whole sub assembly that connects to that port, you swap out all of the items just mentioned. Since my Webster runs very well, I know that all of those items are in excellent working order. That would address any question of compression leaking past either valve, and the issue of carburation. Its just sheer good luck that while the Odds and Ends engine has the tapped holes offset in a vertical plane from the port, the Webster has the tapped holes in line horizontally with the port. This allows me, by simply tapping two more holes, to run either sub assembly untill I isolate the problem. The build itself is finished, and the engine looks great. The cylinder to water jacket seal appears to be a success, as I have had the water jacket filled with water all day, and there are no bubbles escaping from the combustion chamber into the water, and no water leaking out around the cylinder nor into the combustion chamber. If the engine still has rather questionable compression with the carb/valve body/sub assembly swapped out, then it has to be the cast iron rings. Most of what is left now is detective work.-----Onemarine---By all means, build a Webster. They are simply a wonderful "starter" i.c. engine, the plans are a free download from the internet, and about a zillion people have built them. If I were to build another Webster, the only change I might make is to build a water jacket around the cylinder instead of depending on the air cooling, which limits the run time to about 15 minutes.


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## aonemarine

Thanks for the tip on the water jacket Brian.
  I have down loaded the plans all ready and have been thinking about building it. Checked materials and im good there. Just need a good kick in the rear to get started...

 A number of years ago I had bore out a set of chilled iron cylinder sleeves, honed them, then reinstalled into the aluminum block. After reinstallation I double checked the bores. I found that the block actually compressed in the sleeve a consiberable amount to where I had to re hone the cylinders...  Take a couple of minutes and reinspect you bore and check the ring for a wear pattern... sound like evrything else has been ruled out.....


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## Brian Rupnow

Thinking--thinking---I don't have an M10 x 1 die---but if I did---Then I could make up a hollow adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole, hook an airline to it, and determine what is leaking and where and how much---


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## aonemarine

*JUST PULL THE DANG PISTON AND INSPECT THE BORE AND RING!!!   *sorry, just had to express myself....


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow said:


> Thinking--thinking---I don't have an M10 x 1 die---but if I did---Then I could make up a hollow adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole, hook an airline to it, and determine what is leaking and where and how much---


 
You could make a hollow adapter out of a M10 x 1 bolt.  That's what I've done in the past.

If it turns out to be the rings not sealing, I've used plain old O-ring on my version of the Odds n End engine for over 6 years now and have never had to replace it.  I'm a big believer.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Better, cheaper idea,--just slip a rubber hose over the carb air horn, leave the sparkplug in, depress the intake valve with my thumb on the stem, then check for air leaks around the piston and exhaust valve. Then repeat with the air hose over a screw in exhaust stub and try again, Should show up leaks at either valve or at piston.


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## aonemarine

Thats a good idea!  Didnt think of that one...


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## canadianhorsepower

> Better, cheaper idea,--just slip a rubber hose over the carb air horn, leave the sparkplug in, depress the intake valve with my thumb


 
maybe cheaper but building aleak down tester like I mentioned is about 20.00 max and both of your hand are free
to move your projec around looking for a leak.
Ive urchasse one of those maney years  ago to check engine at the race track and love it you can use that with many other app after


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## Brian Rupnow

Just got home from an all day trip up north to see my ancient mother (92). She's feeling good and looking healthier than I do. I have decided that the quickest, cheapest, nastiest thing I can do to see if my cast iron rings are leaking compression is to put some compressed air on the cylinder and see if I can hear or feel air escaping out the open end of the cylinder with 25 pounds pressure on the cylinder. Normally I would have made an adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole, but I lack the required die to make a screw in spigot. However, I have dozens of short pieces of steel and brass laying around, so when I got home I quickly turned two spigots and glued them into the exhaust valve body and the intake valve body with "seal all". They can be quickly removed by applying a bit of heat to the outboard ends to soften the glue when I am finished with them. They both have a .100 hole thru the center, which will let me slip some silicone tubing over the ends and blow pressurized air through them  via a regulator supplied from my air compressor. I'll let things set up for an hor and give it a try to see if I can find out what exactly is happening. I can very quickly make another piston with a Viton o-ring if the c.i. rings are leaking compression. I know that a Viton ring won't leak.


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay---The results are in. At 25 to 40 psi applied thru the exhaust port, and the engine rotated by hand untill the lifter opens the exhaust valve, allowing pressurized air to enter the combustion chamber, there is no air escaping from the intake side of the carb, but I can hear a definite hiss of air escaping around the piston at the open end of the cylinder. With the air line hooked to the intake side of the valve body, and the intake valve depressed by hand so that air can enter the combustion chamber, no air is escaping from the exhaust valve side, but again I hear air hissing at the open end of the cylinder, and when the piston is at bottom dead center I can see see bubbles appear in the oil cup for the cylinder which is always "downstream" from the rings on the piston. This tells me 3 things--The intake valve is sealing properly when there is pressure in the combustion chamber. The exhaust valve is sealing properly when there is pressure in the combustion chamber, and the rings are not sealing regardless of where the piston is in the cylinder, as established by rotating the crankshaft through 360 degrees with the cylinder pressurized. Its not a real loud hiss, but its definitly a hiss. Now on a 4" diameter piston with a 4 or 5" stroke, a little hiss like I'm hearing wouldn't rattle me to much.---But, on a 1" dia. piston with a 1 3/8" stroke, any little hiss at all is bad news. Tomorrow I will build a new piston with a Viton o-ring. I may have to wait until Monday to get the o-ring.


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Did you use a Viton o-ring or just a plain black butyl rubber one?  I prepared my cast iron cylinder with a brake hone (the cheap ones with the 3 spring loaded expanding stones) and a lap made from 1" diameter aluminum. The finish on the inside of my cylinder was as good or better than any other engines I have built. I am still learning, and I learn more with every engine I build. Today I'm making a new piston and fitting it with a Viton o-ring. If the engine runs succesfully after that, I will have learned not to use cast iron rings again on my home hobby projects.-----And probably exactly because of what you said. I don't have the equipment (or perhaps the machining expertise) to get the finish required to run cast iron rings. As a point of interest, with the cylinder dismounted and the carb/valve bodies still in place, I blew into the cylinder by mouth untill I just about ripped a lung loose, and there is no air escaping from the valves nor from around the sparkplug.---


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian do you have an extra ring to experiment with???


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## Brian Rupnow

canadianhorsepower said:


> Brian do you have an extra ring to experiment with???


No Luc, I don't. The two rings I have were shipped from Texas. I have the piston and rings removed now, and to be honest, the wear pattern on the rings looks very good. I'm done with cast iron rings.


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## cfellows

Brian, on my Odds n Ends engine I just used a black o-ring I bought at the hardware store.  It has held up well.  I think they are more than adequate for engines that don't get real hot.

Another thing I've learned about o-rings is not to fit them too tight.  I like to make the groove at least .006" wider than the o-ring with the depth being at or just under the o-ring thickness.  I also use a file to put ever so slight a chamfer on the groove edges, just to reduce the risk of cutting the o-ring.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

There we have it---a new aluminum piston configured for Viton o-rings. Started a t 10:00--finished at 12:00!!! I may not be getting better, but By God, I am getting faster!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Chuck. I can't get a Viton ring until Monday, so I may steal the ring out of the Atkinson to try things with. As far as the size of groove, i have a chart that shows a gap .95" wide for a 0.070" cross section o-ring x .055 to .057" deep. I use those figures as starting points anyways, and yes, I do chamfer the edges of the grooves slightly with a flat file while the piston is still in the lathe. Since my parting off tool is .093 wide thats what I use to cut the grooves, just a straight on plunge cut.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> No Luc, I don't. The two rings I have were shipped from Texas. I have the piston and rings removed now, and to be honest, the wear pattern on the rings looks very good. I'm done with cast iron rings.


 
Hey Brian ,
you might want to try this.
 put your ring on your piston close it like if it would be in your cylinder
and make a pigot that would take the gap off and press tyte it in your your
or top of your ring grove. this is a common practice on a 2 stroke


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay---We got joy!!! We got so much compression now that the flat belt won't drive it---it just slips. I have went back to the adapter that drives right on the end of the crankshaft, and the engine is starting and running for short periods of time. Office is full of blue smoke. Twiddling ignition timing and fuel needle valve, trying to find the "happy" combination.


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## ronkh

"I may not be getting better, but By God, I am getting faster!!!"

Brilliant Brian!

As always a joy to look at your posts, video's, narratives, your build's and the above!

Ron.


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> Okay---We got joy!!! We got so much compression now that the flat belt won't drive it---it just slips. I have went back to the adapter that drives right on the end of the crankshaft, and the engine is starting and running for short periods of time. Office is full of blue smoke. Twiddling ignition timing and fuel needle valve, trying to find the "happy" combination.


 
where did you get all that compression??


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## Brian Rupnow

Luc--I got all that compression by swapping out the piston with cast iron rings for a new piston with a viton o-ring. I discovered that I had one spare 1" viton o-ring left from my Atkinson build. It made all the difference in the world!!!


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## canadianhorsepower

Brian Rupnow said:


> Luc--I got all that compression by swapping out the piston with cast iron rings for a new piston with a viton o-ring. I discovered that I had one spare 1" viton o-ring left from my Atkinson build. It made all the difference in the world!!!


 

That great news Thm:
How do you like my sugestion of that small pin over your ring?


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## Brian Rupnow

Love it!!!


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## aonemarine

canadianhorsepower said:


> That great news Thm:
> How do you like my sugestion of that small pin over your ring?


 

Honestly, that suggeston only applies to an engine with ports in the sleeve to keep the ring from rotating. Other than that....I dont see your point...


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## Brian Rupnow

i just wanted to make Luc feel good.


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## aonemarine

Brian, Im curious. You say the ring shows a good wear pattern. How about the bore? Did it look ok as well? How much piston to wall clearance?  I was planning on running iron rings on my build and am trying to figure out why they just dont work out for you. Im not used to model engines, so there is much I need to learn...


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## jixxerbill

Brian im proud for you.. Glad you got it running , even a little bit. Just have to tune it now.. But as Aonemarine said im planning on using cast rings on the Webster also. I sure wished you could have got the cast rings to work. But congrats for getting it running..Bill


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## canadianhorsepower

aonemarine said:


> Honestly, that suggeston only applies to an engine with ports in the sleeve to keep the ring from rotating. Other than that....I dont see your point...


 
not quite wright.  because if a ring is set up properly and this means
end gap and side clearence it wont rotate. I't beeing use in a two stroke
to prevent the ring to rotate when worn out and wrecking a cylinder for nothing.

 If it's place "_the pin_" in the drawing " _properly_" it will have the effect of reducing ring gap lost by half or blow by whatehever you want to call it

sure "but gap" ring clearence is not the best (what's beeing use here )

you could also try angle gapping and youll be surprise what the difference
it makes.
  I really hope Brian will try it after he will use cast rings or make is own


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## aonemarine

"If it's place "_the pin_" in the drawing " _properly_" it will have the effect of reducing ring gap lost by half or blow by whatehever you want to call it"

Not so, you still have to allow for ring expansion. otherwise the ring expands to the pin and will wedge itself to the cylinder walls. I used to build outboard engines for drag racing and built thousands of 2 stoke outboards as well as 4 stroke engines. Trust me rings can and will rotate if they want to especially when they run over a port.....But thats better left for discussuion elsewhere and not on Brians post.


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## canadianhorsepower

ring info that many should read


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## aonemarine

Im not arguing that, but build yourself a high performance outboard with a ported sleeve without the locating pins and see what happens. I have and its not a pretty sight!! Especially with a keystone ring at 14k rpms. 2 stroke outboards are a different beast than thier 4 stroke brothers. Thats why 2 strokes have the pin and 4 strokes dont.


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## Brian Rupnow

This was my first ever attempt at running cast iron rings. The cylinder is cast iron, and the piston was cast iron. the rings were purchased from a reputable comppany in Texas, and they were visually perfect. I checked the ring gap in the cylinder, and it was perfect. The ring grooves I machined in the piston were as perfect as someone with 5 years machining experience, good machines, and a very good understanding of all things mechanical/technical could make them. The cylinder bore was drilled to withing .030" of full size, then reamed to size with a straight flute machine reamer in the lathe. Then it was rough honed with a spring loaded brake cylinder hone and very light machine oil to take out any large machining marks. Then it was lapped with an aluminum lap .001 to .002" smaller than the bore, using 600 lapping compound with the lap locked in the lathe turning at 115 rpm while the cylinder was held by hand and worked back and forth on the lap as it was turning for about 2 to 3 minutes. the cylinder was then flushed with laquer thinners and warm water and soap to remove any traces of lapping compound. The piston was an air tight fit in the cylinder. That is to say, it would fall thru the cylinder under its own weight, but when a coating of light oil was applied, one finger held over the end bore would stop the pistons movement because of the air trapped ahead of it. Thats about as good a fit as you can get. Why did the rings leak? I have no idea. The gaps were arranged at 180 degrees to one another. The piston with rings installed was  at first terribly stiff in the bore of the cylinder, even when coated with light oil. After a 1 hour run im period on the lathe, using light oil during the whole breaking in process, the piston freed up to the point where it could be moved in the cylinder by rotating the crankshaft by hand. After I decided that the rings were not going to hold compression for me, I did some forensic examination. The rings were uniformly shiny all except for one area on the side of the top ring which was not as shiny as the rest of the ring. To a lesser extent there was the same "not quite so worn" area on the second ring, but on the opposite side. Perhaps, on a much longer run in perios the rings would have worn in more uniformly and sealed 100%. I don't know. This was  my maiden trial with cast iron rings, and I won't use them again. Thousands have used them succesfully. Hundreds have used them and got the same poor results I did. When I put in the new piston I made yesterday morning with a 1/16" cross section Viton o-ring on it, it sealed immediately and totally, and gave me wonderfull compression. Thats all the information I can give you about my experience with cast iron rings.


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## canadianhorsepower

Good work Brian,
 the most important thing is that you have a running engine Thm:


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## doc1955

I have found that when putting in cast iron rings into a cylinder you do not want to over do the cylinder lapping you want the finish in the cylinder to be somewhere between a 32 -16 finish. 
  Now with an o-ring you would want as smooth of finish as you could achieve. The reason you don't want a smooth finish is the rings will not seat correctly or take a long time to do so. 
  I personally bore my cylinders and try and get a good finish with the boring bar and not lap at all, cut lines around the cylinder will not hurt, it is only if you have depressions from cutting running the length of the cylinder that will cause problems.
  I have seen where a builder has tried to make the cylinder with a supper finish inside only to have problems trying to get the rings to seat properly. 
  This has worked for me on all my IC engines I've built. I feel it's the same as putting in cross hatching in the full size motors to help the rings seal to the cylinder wall.


----------



## aonemarine

Brian, the spot on the rings where it showed less wear. Where is it located in reference to the ring gap?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

aonemarine said:


> Brian, the spot on the rings where it showed less wear. Where is it located in reference to the ring gap?


Just to the left of the ring gap in both cases. In all truth, it looks like with another 2 hours or so of running in, the ring would have had the same uniform finish all the way around. However, if the engine won't start and run its never going to happen. Probably on multi cylinder engines with larger displacements, the engine would have started fine and the rings would have completed their "wearing in" to give a perfect seal. However, on a single cylinder, one mousepower engine, it wasn't going to happen. however---I'll make anybody interested a deal!!! I paid $20 for the rings, which included the shipping. I built the 1" piston from grey pearlitic cast iron. If anybody wants the piston and the rings, they can have it for $20 plus shipping.---Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm going thru the whole spectrum, ruling out anything that would cenceivably keep this engine from running. I need 3 things--Compression--ignition, and fuel. The cast iron rings were bleeding compression, and the engine wouldn't even fire. I made a new piston and put a Viton o-ring on it, and immediately had good compression. The engine fires quite regularly now when being powered with the electric drill, but not enough to stay running more than 10 or 15 seconds after the drill is taken away. Okay, I'm down to ignition and fuel. Today I tried to make a new needle valve but wasn't terribly succesfull---I just don't have the right machinery for it. The rather hokey home made point set up is suspect also---So, today I "invented" a points mounting plate that will still be adjustable like the original design (I like that capability) but will use a set of tried and true Chrysler product ignition points. I designed it and machined it this afternoon, and tomorrow  I will install it and hopefully eliminate any question about "ignition". I phoned all over North America today, trying to find a pre made needle valve with a 2-56 thread on it, but nobody has one.  Some model airplane engines (Cox) has a needles valve for $4.00, but the thread is a #2-80 which is a proprietary thread and the tap is not available. I was just about to go online and check out toolpost mounted grinders from Little Machine Shop to use when making a new needle valve when I seen your message.---Brian


----------



## aonemarine

Brian, switch to the methanol... its less tempermental about running rich...  Kinda a stupid question, are you running in the right direction?


----------



## cfellows

Brian, you can make a really good needle valve by soldering a sewing needle into a brass screw.  Phil Duclose used this method in his later engines, I think starting with the Topsy Turvey.  I've done this several times and it's dead easy to do, believe it or not.  I'll scan a drawing for you if you're interested.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

aonemarine said:


> Brian, switch to the methanol... its less tempermental about running rich...  Kinda a stupid question, are you running in the right direction?


 The direction these small engines turn is all established by how you set up the valve  cam and ignition cam. they will run either direction equally well.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

cfellows said:


> Brian, you can make a really good needle valve by soldering a sewing needle into a brass screw.  Phil Duclose used this method in his later engines, I think starting with the Topsy Turvey.  I've done this several times and it's dead easy to do, believe it or not.  I'll scan a drawing for you if you're interested.
> 
> Chuck


I know about that Chuck. I just find it impossible to run a hole large enough for a sewing needle up the center of a #2-56 x 3/4" long screw. If you have any way of doing that that I am not aware of, please let me know.---Brian


----------



## mikegw1961

Brian

Could you drill part way through the screw and then glue / solder part of a sewing needle into it

Mike


----------



## cfellows

Brian Rupnow said:


> I know about that Chuck. I just find it impossible to run a hole large enough for a sewing needle up the center of a #2-56 x 3/4" long screw. If you have any way of doing that that I am not aware of, please let me know.---Brian


 
I did a drawing based on Duclos's design.  Scale may not be exact, but close. 







The materials are all brass.  The small hole for the needle is drilled only though relatively thin head.  I think the two things that make this needle valve work well are the long taper on the needle and the smooth finish.


----------



## Tom Jamboretz

I do the sewing needle trick an all of my engines and it works great. Be sure to have needle in seat before soldering. It will be dead on. TJ


----------



## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow said:


> I know about that Chuck. I just find it impossible to run a hole large enough for a sewing needle up the center of a #2-56 x 3/4" long screw. If you have any way of doing that that I am not aware of, please let me know.---Brian



Chuck the screw in the lathe and drill. The drill should go dead center as deep as you want.


This one is a #2-56 with a #2 hand sewing needle (.039). I did a press fit so I didn't have to solder or locktite it together.


----------



## canadianhorsepower

stevehuckss396 said:


> Chuck the screw in the lathe and drill. The drill should go dead center as deep as you want.
> 
> 
> This one is a #2-56 with a #2 hand sewing needle (.039). I did a press fit so I didn't have to solder or locktite it together.


press fit  10 tons Rof}Rof}


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The finished product is a little different than the pretty solid model. I determined that I didn't require the raised boss around the center hole, so the plate was machined from a left over flat piece of brass (from an earlier project). I cut the slot thru to the center hole with the bandsaw, as it is hidden in behind the flywheel when its all together. The points are early chrysler product #018-4126-8  A110P by BWD, purchased from Partsource. I like the fact that with this set-up there is some adjustability of the timing possible while the engine is running. I wired everything up when I was finished installing the new points and mounting plate, tested it for spark, and damned near electrocuted myself in the process. Now I know how Chief felt in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos's Nest".!!!  I have some real engineering work at the moment, so haven't really persued anything about the needle valve as yet.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Thank You--Thank You--I have the same Philip Duclos book as you, but I hadn't skipped ahead to where that carburetor set-up is shown. That may just solve all my needle valve woes for now and future.----Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Aha---Fooled me!!! It wasn't the needle valve preventing the engine from running. It was that hokey point set up. I gave it a quick try this morning and BINGO!!!! First run movie attached. The governor system isn't hooked up yet, and truly, I didn't expect it to start and run like it did.---Thus all the crap on my side desk doing the Hootchie Kootchy when it started right up and ran and I grabbed my camera.


----------



## ozzie46

Congrats Brian. I knew you'd get it. th_wavth_wav

 So now that you know it was the points are you going to give the old piston and cast iron ring a try? 

 Ron


----------



## Gazzaleach

Hi Brian,
              What is the keyway size on your crankshaft and also what did you use to cut the keyway in the flywheels? 

Cheers Gaz


----------



## aonemarine

ha ha ha ha ha.... gotta love it, sounds good too!! I was thinking the points set up seemed a bit off, like no spring tension to close the gap quickly enough....


----------



## canadianhorsepower

ozzie46 said:


> Congrats Brian. I knew you'd get it. th_wavth_wav
> 
> So now that you know it was the points are you going to give the old piston and cast iron ring a try?
> 
> Ron


 
I bet he wont:hDe:


----------



## idahoan

ozzie46 said:


> Congrats Brian. I knew you'd get it. th_wavth_wav
> 
> So now that you know it was the points are you going to give the old piston and cast iron ring a try?
> 
> Ron


 
I was kind of wondering the same thing?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Not going to happen guys. Remember, I couldn't get the engine to fire nor run at all with the cast iron rings. It simply wasn't going to happen, there wasn't enough compression. As soon as I made a new piston and put a Viton o-ring on it, I had lots of compression and the engine would fire quite regularly when driven by the electric drill----it just wouldn't stay running on its own. Then with the new Chrysler points it blasted off and ran as you seen it in the video. I've had that piston in and out enough times. I truly believe that with another couple of hours of running in, the cast iron rings would have sealed properly, based on visual inspection of the rings and piston. The wear pattern on the rings is about 90% uniform, with two areas that had started to wear but still hadn't reached the same finish as the rest of the ring. I paid $20 for the rings including shipping, and made a cast iron piston. I'm not going to use it.--If anybody wants the 1" dia. c.i. piston and rings, they can have it for $20 plus shipping.---The next part of this marvelous adventure will be to get the governor working.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Gazzaleach said:


> Hi Brian,
> What is the keyway size on your crankshaft and also what did you use to cut the keyway in the flywheels?
> 
> Cheers Gaz


That is a 3/32" square key. I use woodruff key cutters to cut the keyseat in the crankshaft, and a small broaching set (manual) to cut the keyway in the flywheels. I like the woodruff key cutters because they cut a very accurate keyway and are not near as apt to break as a small endmill.


----------



## AussieJimG

Congratulations Brian, your patience and persistence paid off.

Jim


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Yes, a thrill and kind of a surprise. I had myself so convinced that it was the needle valve I wasn't really expecting it to run. I hooked up the governor with an "over the counter" tension spring from Brafasco and it is definitly going in and out of hit and miss mode. I'n not sure why its making such a clatter, but the sound pickup on my new camera is very sensitive, and I was only about a foot away from it when I shot this video. I have to get a better spring, and I think the timing was too far advanced because I could see the engine bucking a bit which to me is a pretty sure sign of firing just before top dead center. I am going to go ahead and make a new spray bar and needle for the carb anyways, because thanks to Chuck on HMEM he called my attention to the fact that Philip Duclos (who designed this engine) has a method for using a sewing needle as part of the needle valve that doesn't require drilling a hole all the way thru the center of a #2-56 bolt.


----------



## starnovice

WOW What an exciting build.  You know Brian your postings get me so involved with the build that I feel like I should jump up and dance with you as I watch the video of it running.  Thank you for another excellent build.

Pat


----------



## jixxerbill

Great job Brian.. Im glad you got it running like it should bud..Bill


----------



## Generatorgus

ozzie46 said:


> Congrats Brian. I knew you'd get it. th_wavth_wav
> 
> So now that you know it was the points are you going to give the old piston and cast iron ring a try?
> 
> Ron


 

Brian, good to see it's running, congrats, alway good when they pop to life.

About the rings, IF IT AIN"T BROKE DON"T FIX IT.
I like the viton rings too and probably won't give much thought to trying iron again.

GUS


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Starnovice--Thank you!!! 5 years ago I built my first wobbler. It affected my so profoundly that I know how Dr, Frankenstein must have felt. I HAD CREATED LIFE!!!! I have been a technology hack all my life, both in my professional capacity as mechanical design engineer and in my hobby, drag racing and building hotrods. Now I had a new outlet for my mechanical soul. Since I enjoy technical writing and the fellowship of like minded folks around the world, forums like this were made for me. I have learned a lot, and my machining abilities have come a long way in 5 years. Now, 18 or 20 engines and nifty things to run with them have came to life in my shop and my flame still burns hot. Thank you to you and everyone who reads and follows my posts.---Brian


----------



## jerryc

Brian Rupnow said:


> A question for anyone who may have built this engine.* Does the piston skirt REALLY stick out .109" beyond the cylinder when the piston is at bottom dead center? This doesn't seem right to me.* Be aware that I have changed the left hand end of the sideplates to come out flush with the back side of the cylinder water jacket, but I haven't changed any of the mathematical relationships given in the drawings in Philip Duclos' book.---Brian


Pistons protruding below cylinder at BDC seemed to work fine on older car engines. It wasn't until the 1930's that car manufacturers found they could trim back on piston skirts for less weight and the engine would still run.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

JerryC--No one has been able to answer this question to my satisfaction. I know that I built my engine so the end of the piston skirt just comes flush with the end of the end of the cylinder. HOWEVER---I have a theory.I don't know if you have ever rebuilt an automobile engine or not, but on an old engine with a lot of miles on it, the rings wear away enough of the cylinder wall over their many millions of trips up and down the cylinder that they actually will enlarge the portion of the cylinder which they travel in. This leaves a quite pronounced "ring ridge" at the top of the cylinder, large enough that the old pistons can not be taken out thru the top of the engine block. The rod has to be unbolted from the crankshaft and the piston removed thru the bottom of the hole. They never seem to kick up as large a  ring ridge at the bottom of their travel at the bottom, farthest away from the combustion chamber. Perhaps that is because the cylinder doesn't wear as rapidly at the bottom because it is farther away from the heat of the combustion chamber. In fact, to remove this ring ridge at the top of the old worn cylinder, there is a special tool called, logically, a "Ring Ridge Remover" that locates in the cylinder bore and is rotated until the "ridge" is cut down to be flush with the bore of the cylinder. If you don't remove this ridge, A--You can't get the new piston and rings into the engine, and B-If you do happen to get them in, the new rings will be marginally thicker than the old worn ones, and will hit against the underside of this ring ridge and break the new rings.---Now, my theory is, that on an engine like mine where the piston and rings fit into a blind hole and that the pistons were long and made of cast iron, that the tail of the piston skirt would actually contact the cylinder wall a lot of the time, especially after the rings become worn a bit. If the rear of the piston didn't extend past the cylinder a bit on each stroke at bottom dead center, there is the possibility that the piston itself would eventually kick up a ridge at the tail end of the cylinder, thus making it impossible to ever remove the piston to replace the rings in future. This is only theory---No one else has ever confirmed it, but it is the only theory that makes any sense to me.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

When I was a kid you could get these engines almost anywhere for free, just to cart them away. And every damned one of them had a cracked outer water jacket from fools forgetting the water was in them and letting them freeze and crack from the expanding water when it froze in the fall. And almost every one of them had a dead magneto. My uncle Jimmy (The one who taught me, at a tender age to drink whiskey and play the fiddle) had half a dozen of them. He would seal up the crack with brazing rod, and even if the crack weeped a little he would keep a constant flow of water to it thru a garden hose. He would hook up a 12 volt car battery and coil, (they must have had some kind of point set-up, even the ones with a mag) and use them to run buzz saws and grinders and all manner of things. He even had one hooked up with an old Star car transmission for a gear reduction and an eccentric to run the well pump. (No hydro when I was a kid).


----------



## cfellows

You could be right, Brian.  As a lad in highschool, I worked at an auto repair shop during the 50's.  Actually, I was more of an apprentice, being good friends with the mechanic and kind of filling the empty gap left by his son who had joined the military.  I tore apart many old engines and as you say, you had to remove the pistons from the bottom of the engine.  I, too, am familiar with the ring ridge remover.  

Congratulations on getting the Odds n Ends to run.  When you get it running right, it should fire once and coast for up to 15 revolutions before firing again.  It might still be a little tight and a new needle valve assembly will probably help as well.  I think I have mine firing right about top dead center, but it still jumps a little when it fires.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Ckuck--Did you ever make a video of the one you built? I would love to see it if you did. I went down to the nuts and bolts store today and rooted around in their spring collection looking for something suitable for governor springs. Of course their lightest spring was still too heavy. I am going to build the new needle valve you put me onto (I feel a bit foolish that I didn't see it in the Duclos book, which I have, untill you made me aware it was in there.). I will probably buy a .013 diameter guitar string and wind my own governor springs.---Brian


----------



## cfellows

Brian, here is a video of my version of the Odds n Ends engine.  As you can see, even though I started from Phil Duclos plans, I didn't follow his plans for the cylinder assembly.  This was one of the first engines I ever built and after several failed attempts at his cylinder assembly, I completely redesigned my own version with a separate head, overhead valves, and round water jacket.   Everything else, including the frame, is pretty much the same.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqIfcjaIY8[/ame]

The bore on my mine wound up at around 1.0625".  I had to redo the bore several times to get it smooth and straight.

Chuck


----------



## rodw

Brian Rupnow said:


> Starnovice--Thank you!!! 5 years ago I built my first wobbler. It affected my so profoundly that I know how Dr, Frankenstein must have felt. I HAD CREATED LIFE!!!! I have been a technology hack all my life, both in my professional capacity as mechanical design engineer and in my hobby, drag racing and building hotrods. Now I had a new outlet for my mechanical soul. Since I enjoy technical writing and the fellowship of like minded folks around the world, forums like this were made for me. I have learned a lot, and my machining abilities have come a long way in 5 years. Now, 18 or 20 engines and nifty things to run with them have came to life in my shop and my flame still burns hot. Thank you to you and everyone who reads and follows my posts.---Brian



Hmmmm, I think I am going to build a wobbler if this is what it does to you  
I will say since I got my first little monster running, I have been a great mood and it has lasted for days! Maybe you have pinpointed the reason why!  I keep getting distracted by improving my new tools and setting up new accessories which is just as rewarding. 

Separately, my recollection of magnetos on the stationery engines we had were that they all had a set of points in them. In our climate, they never froze solid though so ran for years. The wildest , oldest and most kantankerous one was a Buzacott on the pump for our house water supply. Mum used to empty a 5,000 gallon overhead tank on her garden every day and part of the the daily starting ritual among priming the water pump, choking the engine with the palm of your hand  and mutttering chants or curses to the engine Gods depending on their mood on the day was trying to judge how much fuel to put in it so we did not have to run 300 yards to turn the engine off when the tank overflowed! I saw a Buzacott on eBay the other day and was tempted to buy it, but I am sure my wife would never have understood why she had to have a huge lump of scrap metal defacing the back yard! Brian, I know you would though!


----------



## Brian Rupnow

RodW---Thanks.--Nice story, and I understand your sentiments exactly. Chuck--WOW!!! You certainly did depart from Philips original plan. However, there is no arguing with success, and that certainly is a sweet running engine. I like the black tape on the sparkplug wire----Looks a lot like home!!


----------



## cfellows

Thanks, Brian, did you notice the 5 neodymium magnets on the flywheel?  Those balance the flywheel/crankshaft assembly and keeps the engine from dancing all over the place.  There's 5 magnets on each flywheel.  I've long intended to weigh the magnets and make a permanent, equally heavy counterweight for each flywheel, but the magnets work well and have no tendency to move, so I haven't bothered.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Chuck--I never noticed the magnets. What wire diameter and how many coils did you use for the tension springs on the governor. Far as I can see, Philip Duclos kinda skipped over that part. He mentions that yes, there are springs there, and he shows a picture, but thats all.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I just wound these two governor springs on my lathe, using a .093" diameter rod as a mandrel.The lathe is out of gear and not under power when I do this. The .093 dia mandrel, about 6" long is held in the 3 jaw chuck at one end, and held LOOSLY in the tailstock chuck, so it will still spin freely, but be given some support at the other end. I clamp one end of the wire under one of the jaws in the 3 jaw chuck, and hold the loose end of the wire in a pair of vice grips. Keeping a constant tension on the wire with the vice griops in my right hand, I manually revolve the 3 jaw chuck with me left hand, always keeping tension on the wire, and keeping a bias towards the headstock so the coils of wire slide tightly together and lay next to each other as they are formed. It takes a full 36" long guitar string to make one of these springs about 1 1/4" long!!! When the entire guitar string (.010" dia. music wire) is wound onto the mandrel, I keep hold of the vice grips and roll the chuck about 4 or 5 rotations in the opposite direction to take the strain off the wire.-Then turn my back and release the vice grips. It goes without saying that you must wear your safety glasses during this operation, as this wire can peirce an eyeball and lead to permanent blindness. The wire generally jumps a little bit when the vice grips are released, but not too much as you have already released most of the tension by turning the chuck backwards 4 or 5 times. Interesting fact---The mandrel was .093" diameter. The wire was tightly wound, and was .010" in diameter. If nothing moved, the outer diameter of the spring would be 0.113" dia. However, the coils all relax a bit when the tension is removed, and the outer diameter is actually 0.140". This will change again, and get a bit smaller after the springs are tempered so they hold their shape permanently.WARNING--THIS METHOD IS ONLY SAFE WITH MUSIC WIRE .025" DIAMETER AND LESS. LARGER WIRE REQUIRES A SPRING WINDING JIG.


----------



## RonGinger

I have wound several springs on my lathe. First I made a hand crank to put in the spindle bore on the far left end. This has an expanding collet that goes inside the spindle bore and tightens with a nut on a threaded rod. The end of this collet has a square that matches the hand crank of my mill so I can use it to turn the lathe spindle.

I lead the spring wire through the slot of an aloris style tool holder, with two wood strips in it- think of taking a lathe tool and splitting it longwise. The wire runs between the wood strips. I tighten the tool mounting screws to pinch the wood strips and adjust the pressure on the wire.

If I want a close wound spring I slowly advance the lathe carriage by hand, keeping the wire tight to the coils. Sometimes I set the lathe to a thread pitch to make open coil springs, like for valve springs.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The springs are then loosely wrapped in a roll of steel wool, and then the roll of steel wool is wrapped in kitchen tinfoil. This goes into your kitchen oven and gets cooked for 1 hour at 450 degrees F, then left to cool without being disturbed. WARNING--THIS WILL STINK!! YOUR WIFE WILL KILL YOU.-TRY AND DO IT WHILE SHE IT OUT!!!!


----------



## cfellows

Brian, after trying a number of different springs, I finally got the best results by just using a spring on one side.  The wire size is .015" and the OD is .230".  The untensioned overall length is 1.161" measured from the two points where the spring contacts the screws on the governor weights.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Chuck. I couldn't wait for your answer, so I forged ahead and used the same wire dia. that worked so well on the Kerzel for me. Sometimes I forget that other people actually have a life, and don't spend all their time roosting on the forums!!!;D;D


----------



## cfellows

Brian Rupnow said:


> Thanks Chuck. I couldn't wait for your answer, so I forged ahead and used the same wire dia. that worked so well on the Kerzel for me. Sometimes I forget that other people actually have a life, and don't spend all their time roosting on the forums!!!;D;D


 
I usually check several times a day, but I spent most of yesterday working on the wife's car and running back and forth to the parts store.  I detailled my adventures in The Break Room... at least most of my adventure.  I didn't mention that I had to install the valve cover gasket 3 times.  The first time, the spark plug seals (in the center of the valve cover) shifted on me and I didn't notice it until I tried to replace the spark plug leads.  The second time I twisted off a valve cover bolt.  Of course, I had installed all the bolts and was tightening them down when I broke one.  :rant: I managed to get it out with an easy-out, but then had to run to the dealer and get a new bolt.  Spent most of the day on it.  Third time everything went together OK.


----------



## cfellows

Brian, here's a picture of my set up.  I have a spring on one side and a detent on the other side to keep the weights from flying apart too far.  The detent is just made from a piece of iron wire.  The weights were sticking open before.






Chuck


----------



## cheepo45

I used a wooden clothespin with vise-grips clamped on it to tension the wire when I wound the valvesprings for my Upshur Farm Engine-it worked great!
cheepo45


----------



## Brian Rupnow

And here are the springs after cooking. They don't really look much different, except for a bit of discoloration. The steel wool which you see beside them turned from dull grey to a dark burnished copper color. Sometimes during heat treat the outer diameter of the coil will shrink a bit. This time it didn't. They still measure 0.140" diameter. Now I have to make up a couple of brass holder blocks to clamp the springs and "turn up" a coil at each end. I managed to get the entire cooking process done while the wife was out shopping. Smell??? What smell dear??? I don't smell anything!!!  Must be something the dog done-----


----------



## cfellows

So, Brian, what does cooking do for the springs?

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

According to the original post done by "Deonofid" way back when---It tempers, or "sets" the spring so that it doesn't loose the memory of its shape/length over a protracted period of usage. I can't say if this would happen or not, but I have seen the same advice given on other spring winding tutorials. I always do it. Maybe I could get away without doing it, but I've never tried.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Now---Governor spring magic--A certain amount of black magic and guessing is involved for the next step---How long are the governor springs to be. Well If we measure outside to outside of the #2-56 screw in the governor weights, then subtract the inside diameter of the springs, etc,---see the drawing. You can arrive at the true geometric length from center to center of the loops in the ends of the springs. The black magic part lays in guessing how much shorter the center to center should be in order to hold SOME spring tension on the governor weights when they are in the "at rest" position. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. One of the good things is, if you guess wrong and want to shorten the spring up a bit, you can.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Next step is to take two small peices of brass or steel, or aluminum, cut them to whatever length you have come up with for the length of the spring inside the loops on the end, (I guessed .875"). Set them side by side in the vice and drill a hole full lenght thru them, half in each peice. The hole should be very close to the maximum diameter of the coils, in my case 0.140"


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Then we use what I call "The two jacknife method" to raise a few coils up at the first end. This consists of setting the spring in the hole thru the blocks, closing the vice enough that everything stays in place with 2 or 3 coils of the spring sticking up above the block, and sliding the blade of jacknife #1 thru the spring next to the block, then sliding jacknife #2 in over the blade of jacknife #1 and prying (gently) up to about 90 degrees. Jacknife #1 serves to keep the entire spring from sliding up out of the blocks when you pry up with jacknife #2. Once you have done this, loosen the vice, flip the blocks and the spring end for end, and repeat.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Then, if you have lived a good clean life like I have, you should end up with something close too this!!! We still don't know if they are the correct length or not. Now we have to install them on the engine, and hope we have guessed right. Of course, if we find we have guessed wrong, we can shorten up the two little blocks (I would try this in increments of 1/8"), cut the loop of one end of the spring, and shorten it accordingly. What we are aiming for is a set of springs that will let the engine fire once, coast for 8 or 13 "miss" cycles, then fire once again, and repeat. This is, of course, the Hit and Miss fans Nirvana---sought by many, actually achieved by few!!!





.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

And there, (God forbid that I should ever leave you hanging) are the governor springs in place. I have the rather cheesy feeling that I have made them a bit too long, but I have to start the engine to find out. And whats that big ugly shcs. doing on the underside of the hub?--Thats the thing that holds my flywheel hub in place---its situated directly over the 3/32" square key, which still has to be shortened, and I found that a set screw kept coming loose.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

As I suspected, the springs are a bit too long, but results are very promising. I will shorten them by 1/8" and try again after supper. It did actually start and run, but at an extremely low rpm., slower than I have ever seen an i.c. engine run for about 40 seconds before giving up the ghost!!!.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

First run with new governor springs. They are still a bit too long, but WOW!!! are we ever getting close!!!


----------



## dreeves

Brian, sounds great I'm sure in no time you will have running the way ou want

Dave


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Dave---Well, thats it for tonight anyways. I'd like it to run a little faster, and I think thats just a matter of taking two or three more coils out of the tension springs. Any advice from other hit and miss engine builders??


----------



## Generatorgus

Brian, I thought you said "run faster". Why??
It's music to my ears.

Good show.

GUS


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## Brian Rupnow

This was my last run from yesterday evening. Although the engine is running slowly and consistently in the video, it is actually running too slow to do any real work. A hit and miss is supposed to hit and miss exactly as in the video, but when they run this slowly, there isn't enough inertia in the flywhels to keep it going and start into full "hit" mode when the load comes onto it. It just dies because it is running so slow. I have taken the springs I wound down to half the lenght I started with, and I feel that I want to take out even more to bring the rpms up about 50% greater than what you see in this video. I have tried it tonight with a rubber band wrapped around the governor weights (to give the same effect as a shorter spring would give) and the rpm's have come up considerably closer to what I want as an end result. It may be that the .010 music wire I wound the springs from is simply too light for this engine. I may have to wind a set from .015 music wire to get to where I want to be.


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## Brian Rupnow

There we are--The last video. The springs ended up being 1/2" center to center of the loops (free length) to get it to this speed. I had 2 more spring shortning sessions tonight, 1/8" each time. I did manage to buy the fuel ball and cap off an antique Coleman Iron to make a fuel tank for this engine for $30 from a guy in Georgetown, Ontario. The engine needs to be cleaned up now, as can be seen in the video. These damned open crankshaft engines stay clean for about 2 minutes when they are running.


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## aonemarine

Looks and sounds great!!!    So what's the next project going to be???


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## AussieJimG

I am glad to see it done Brian, but sad to see it finished as it means the end of the story. A great journey. Thanks.

Jim


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## mygrizzly1022

It doesn&#8217;t have to be the end of the story. An engine as nice as that deserves something to run.
Here you go Brian; this should be right up your alley.  [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNvZyvDVaTw[/ame]
You can use it to split your kindling for the fireplace.   Good job on your engine I can&#8217;t help but admire you skill and patience. Well done sir.
Regards &#8230;&#8230;Bert


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## aonemarine

Bert, that's just way too cool!!   Go for it Brian, its way better than my suggestion for a next project.
Miniature snow blower....


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## Brian Rupnow

Wow---Beyond cool!!! I like the way the ram stops about 8" short of the anvil. No way to get hurt there unless you get your hand on TOP of the block-----or stick your head in!!! Thanks for such a cool video.---Brian


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## cfellows

Really nice work, Brian.  Your engine runs and looks great.  Wish I had the patience and skill to document my builds as well as you do!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Now I ask you---Is that a beautifull thing or not!!! That is one of the fuel tanks off a gas Coleman iron that I have been trying to chase down to use as a fuel tank for my Odds and Ends engine. It is just the right size, and even from the right time era. I'm as pleased as a can be!!!!


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## cheepo45

Very nice job, Brian, and quick too!  My builds seem to drag on for years-I guess I have a short attention span! (and too many other hobbies)
 Thanks for the great documentation. 
                      cheepo45


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## Ed

Nice job Brian. With my odds & ends build I'm at the point of making the cast iron rings. My questions are how much larger od are the rings turned then the id of the cylinder wall before you cut the slot in the ring?What is the id of the ring as to the od of the od of the ring grove on the piston? I would like to try to make the rings be fore I go to the O ring. Ed


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## Ed

It's amazing what you find out when you read the contents of a book.on page 112 of Philip Duclos book is a chapter telling me every thing I wanted to know.With simple formulas that I can do.Just to let you know sometimes it's good to re read a book. Ed


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## Brian Rupnow

Its time to put this engine to work---But first its going to need a drive pulley. A twin o-ring drive pulley to be exact!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

So---There is one time that I can think of when you actually welcome chatter marks!!! When you are doing a plunge cut in the outer diameter of a pulley for an o-ring drive belt, chatter marks are actually a good thing. They help the belt to grip the pulley and not slip. If I can just get my gas tank mounted, this engine will be ready to go to work for a living.


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## Brian Rupnow

I am playing at mounting the Coleman iron fuel tank to my hit and miss engine. Its going to be a close thing, keeping the tank lower than the carburetor. I can just squeeze it in there. I'm going to have to seal up the threaded hole in the bottom of the tank, and add a fuel outlet on the lower curve of the tank. I show it mounted to a peice of brass (dark blue) which is bolted to the aluminum base. The tank is made from non magnetic stainless steel, and has obviously been soldered together at the tank seam and at the hex hut attached to the bottom where the threaded outlet hole is. (I don't think they had tig welding when this tank was made). Question---Can I silver solder this tank to the brass base and solder in a brass or mild steel plug in the threaded hole? Would it be better to use soft solder? I've never soldered anything stainless before.


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## metalmad

Hi Brian
If your tank stand had a bit of a recess to suit the coolent tower you could just bolt it on, maybe with some fancy dome head nuts or the like.
Pete


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## Brian Rupnow

Can't do that Pete. The tank is too tall, and if any part of the tank sticks up higher than the carb, all the gas runs out onto the table, and/or floods the engine so bad it won't run. I have to keep the top of the tank lower than the carb, which means mounting it down as far as I can get it.
NEWS FLASH!!!! Making parts from cardboard is MUCH easier than making them from metal!!!! But I bet you knew that already. I have decided to go ahead and make the support bracket for the fuel tank from aluminum, and to hold the tank to the bracket with some hidden screws. The threaded hole in the bottom of the tank will be plugged with a peice of M12 bolt and JB Weld----no solder. The only soldering involved will be to solder a small 0.170 dia. brass spigot into the tank near the bottom for my fuel line outlet. I want to keep the tank far enough away from the sparkplug that there is no random arcing from the sparkplug to the tank. I'm not sure what would happen, but I really don't want to find out. I will be adding a rubber "boot" to the sparkplug wire. After designing the bracket, I print it out at 1:1 scale, glue the print to a peice of cereal box cardboard, and try it for fit. Its much easier to change the design and the cardboard if I don't like it than to make another different bracket.


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## Brian Rupnow

Oh Yeah!!!! That will do. That will definitly do!!! My Coleman iron fuel tank looks right at home on the engine. I silver soldered a 0.172 diameter peice of round brass with a .095 dia hole drilled thru the center into the side of the tank near the bottom for my fuel line take off. I coated an M12-1.5 bolt with the head removed with J B Weld and screwed it into the hole in the bottom of the tank to seal it. In order to get the tank low enough so that no part stuck up above the carburetor I had to cut a hex shaped hole in the aluminum bracket and set the nut on the bottom of the tank down into the hole, and hold it in place with set screws tapped through the sides of the bracket. I think that for all intents and purposes, this engine is finished. You will see it again coupled to my sawmill, but as far as this engine build, I'm done. Its been a great ride, and it got me through the worst part of the winter. Thanks for riding with me.----Brian


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## aonemarine

Looks good Brian!


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## akitene

Such a nice job!

Because of its reservoir, it kind of reminds me of Cugnot's "Fardier", the very first steam automobile:





Here's a link to the related topic in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas-Joseph_Cugnot


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## Wagon173

I second the kindling splitter!  That would be awesome!  Heck, I might keep that in mind for a future project!


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## Brian Rupnow

A follow up after a spell away from this beast. Although I was able to get the engine to run long enough to make the videos I posted, I had one ongoing problem which I just couldn't solve.  After about 5 minutes of running fine, the engine would just gradually die and quit. I changed coils---I changed sparkplugs---I took off my home brewed carburetor and put on a purchased model airplane carb. Nothing really seemed to help. Then I got very busy with my design business, and was happy to just walk away from the project. Even though when it quit I could turn it over easily by hand, I thought that perhaps the aluminum piston was "growing" from heat expansion and seizing in the bore. I had no real proof of that, but absolutely couldn't imagine what else the problem could be. I put the old cast iron piston back into the engine with one cast ring at the top and a Viton o-ring in the second groove. The engine was also leaking air between the manifold body and the cylinder head, and burning away the gasket material. I took Lane's advise and put a small counterbore into the cylinder and into the manifold body, and inserted a thin wall tube into this counterbored area, to bridge the flat spot between the two surfaces. Then made a new gasket from a better grade of material and used high heat Permatex to reassemble everything. Today, for the first time in about 3 or 4 weeks I actually ran out of design engineering work, so I decided to play with the odds and ends engine. I didn't really like the gas tank I had put on it, so I removed it and made up a temporary tank. (All you guys who suffer from arse end issues will appreciate the new gasoline container.) I filled the water reservoir, adjusted the timing, and away it went.---And ran for an hour. I actually had to shut it off by lifting one of the wires off the battery. I am SOOOO happy to have it run for an hour!!! Now I can proceed with hooking it up through my new clutch to the sawmill. Jim Dunmyer is sending me a new sawblade which he found works very well on the sawmill he built, so I will install it on my sawmill as soon as it gets here and MAYBE I can make the video of a i.c. powered sawmill sawing a log, that I have been promising for months now.


!!!


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## jwcnc1911

Success!  You can't beat the feeling when something you've been working on works!

Odds-n-ends?  Man I see at least a couple hundred dollars of raw stock there if you were to order it.


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## cfellows

Congratulations, Brian.  Unfortunately, you still don't know what the problem was, do you? 

Chuck


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## aonemarine

glad to hear you have it up and running well. Wish I had one of those fuel tanks fresh from the store too, could use it ATM


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## Brian Rupnow

I added a spring to the rocker arm to help keep it in contact with the cam. Using a piece of music wire through the pivot as per Philip Duclo's plans called for just wasn't getting the job done.


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