# 5 cyl OHC Radial.



## Brian40 (Apr 21, 2015)

Time to be thinking of the next engine, so after lots of doodling on scraps of paper and the computer I have come up with this offering.

Five cylinders 25mm bore X 28 mm stroke. with overhead camshaft

Must be able to be made on a 7X12 and a small mill.

I think this will keep me occupied for two to three winters.

Brian.


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## Swifty (Apr 21, 2015)

Bevel gear drive on the overhead cams? Like Ducati engines.

Paul.


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## Brian40 (Apr 21, 2015)

Hi Paul 
 Nothing so sophisticated one to one spur gear to get clear of the crank then MXL 2 to 1 belt to the cam. ignition to be driven off one of the cams. the gear case is the next area to be drawn up.
 I am trying to design this as easy to make as possible.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Apr 24, 2015)

The gear case and drive to the camshafts looks fit to go to the next stage.so its on to the crank shaft and auxiliary drive. 
Now Paul you can see how the drive for the cams is arranged.
A casing over the belt drives will take the drives for the two oil pumps from the two lower gears. 
I intend to split the ignition between the cam shafts No's 2 & 5 a magnetic trigger on 2 and distributor on 5.
A long way to go yet even for the general layout. 
Brian


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## Swifty (Apr 24, 2015)

Looks great Brian, will the belt drives be on the front or rear of the engine. I was only thinking that if the drives were on the front and you had covers on them, it would impede the cooling of the engine, that's if you had a prop on it.

Paul.


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## Brian40 (Apr 25, 2015)

The belts are at the rear of the engine Paul the gears are inside the rear of the crankcase.

Brian


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## Swifty (Apr 25, 2015)

I should look at your drawings a bit closer next time, it is quite evident that the belts are at the back. 

Paul.


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## Brian40 (May 5, 2015)

Things are moving on in the doodle department,
The cover over the cam drive belts has been extended to form a mounting for the engine and the oil tank, the oil pumps are now inside the tank and driven from accessory shafts 2 and 5.
A annular duct in the nose piece forms part of the inlet system taking the mixture from the propane gas carb underneath the casing and passing it up to the heads.
The cylinder length and rod length has been has been increased to reduce rod angularity and allow for a better master rod. 
The slow process of changing the idea into working drawings is underway.
The side view drawing is a montage of all the cylinders showing all the features on the one cylinder The only component missing is the trigger unit that will be on cylinder No 5, But it gives the general idea.
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Jul 15, 2015)

Over the past few weeks the design has changed quite a lot as I started to do working drawings. the barrels are now steel ---crank case larger---shorter stroke---coaxial oil pump. ETC
So now At last the first chips are flying.
First part to be made is the Jig that all of the crank case parts will be made on.
All the registers on the crank case are the same diameter and the jig will be 
transferable between the rotary table and the lathe face plate.

The blanks for the jig only just fit the chuck so off we go on the start of a long journey.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Aug 12, 2015)

It's been head down for a few weeks while I have been working on the jig's the case jig has a female register to locate the case and a adaptor ring to convert it to male so the opposite side of the case can be machined. as all the registers are the same diameter I think this will keep it all in line. with the R T vertical I can machine the cylinder locations on the same jig.
the second jig takes the cylinders and heads. the jigs can be used on either the lathe or the mill.
Brian.


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## jimjam66 (Aug 12, 2015)

Lovely work, Brian.  Looking forward to more progress!


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## Brian40 (Aug 12, 2015)

Hi David .thanks for your comments, most of the progress at the moment is in the paperwork !!! getting from a concept drawing to working drawings with real dimensions  that do not conflict with each other takes a long while,
but I am getting there slowly. regards    Brian.


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## kf2qd (Aug 12, 2015)

That master rod doesn't look quite right. Did you figure the pin location with the crank at TDC for each cylinder?

Because of the motion of the master rod because it is tied to cylinder 1 it is out of time on the others.


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## Brian40 (Aug 13, 2015)

This is the reason for OHC  valve and ignition timing is independent.
Brian.


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## kf2qd (Aug 13, 2015)

But individual cylinders will be hitting TDC at angles other than every 72 degrees and that will add vibration. By adjusting the position of the slave rods in the master rod the engine will run smoother.

Copying the jpeg you posted into autocad as a raster image and then rotating around the crankshaft I come up with 85 degrees and 152 degrees for the angle of the slave holes from the master rod.  Longer rods in larger engines require less of an offset.

Here is a quick sketch I drew up based on the images you posted earlier. The red circles are for a master rod with the holes 72 degrees apart, and the small green circle is the shift to give TDC at 72 degrees of crank rotation. for the 2 upper side cylinders I come out with an 85 degree offset, and the lower 2 with 152 degrees.


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## Brian40 (Aug 13, 2015)

OK my original thinking was that tdc being a few degrees out was not going to matter if the timing was right.
after all we live with V twin engines and offset vertical twins.
However I am always willing to learn. so am I correct in thinking that 85° refers to cylinders 2 and 5. and that 152°
refers to 3 and 4. 
next problem is that the drawing you used is out of date the stroke has been shortened and the cylinder lengthened ,this was done to reduce the angularity of the slave rods, the drawing now looks like this.
Brian.


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## kf2qd (Aug 13, 2015)

Here is what I come up with -

This is based off the image files. Would be more accurate from a cad file.
Slave rods are the same length.


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## Brian40 (Aug 14, 2015)

I have drawn out the layout and come up with 83° and 151°
I will redraw the master rod and see what and see what it looks like.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Aug 14, 2015)

This is the drawing with the corrected rod I must admit it looks better,
Brian


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## Brian40 (Oct 1, 2015)

OK the time has come to start I have ordered the steel for the cylinders.. so its heads down for the log haul, 
I think this one is going to take about three years.
No doubt we will have problems to solve along the way I know that getting the crank balance is not going to be easy there is so much advice and it's all different. that I am considering dynamically balancing it ?? so that will mean making a triggered strobe , oh well just another job.
Brian.


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## gus (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi Brian, 
Will be following your 5 cylinder engine build. I am now looking a 3 cylinder drawings. No firm decision yet. You are write such engines takes time to build.Wish you well on this project. Meanwhile I am crawling at snail pace with the Howell V-2 in the final stage nearer to completion.


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## Brian40 (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi Gus. I will be happy to know you are keeping an eye on my efforts, another pair of eyes are always useful
 You are doing a wonderful job on the v twin, Just go slow we all have things to learn on the way. I know I will have to for definite. 
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Nov 2, 2015)

Hang on to your hats lads,   I am told the material for the cylinders and the heads will arrive in 2 -yes- TWO days Yippy!!!
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Nov 4, 2015)

IT's arrived ! Now the fun begins, 
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Nov 8, 2015)

At last I have made a start on the cylinders I decided to make one first to prove the jigs then do 4 in a batch.
 the jigs have proved a great help being able to change from lathe to mill without having to worry about things getting out of line. when all the  cylinders are ready I will do the final finish to the bore with a new tip to get the best results.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Nov 15, 2015)

Five cylinders ready for the final bore and tiding up.
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 2, 2015)

Hi all I have been working a bit and made some progress, The cylinders are finished and ready for hot oil blacking.

and the heads are coming along nicely tim is likely to get limited running up to Christmas so things may slow down a little.

The  32 x 40 gas engine has been shipped off to Scotland as a present for our 8 year old grand son, I think It is better with him to learn on rather than laying around the work shop gathering dust.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 5, 2015)

Hi all It's a bit of the same again but try this it's the first of the series
https://youtu.be/5BAUrD6AsII
brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 14, 2015)

More good music and a few slides.
https://youtu.be/KsJvTsjiQIc 

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 23, 2015)

Sorry for the scant posting but I am a bit preoccupied at the moment .but here is another short offering on Utube https://youtu.be/smCKkDWyY-A       it's parting off drill rod that gives me the willies.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 26, 2015)

After a lot of nail biting the ten cam followers are finished.
The next worrying job will be the valve cages. but the bronze will not be arriving untill January so I have  time to ponder the problems. I intend to shrink fit  the cages and final machine in situ.  has anyone used plumbers freezing spray and what was the result.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Dec 31, 2015)

While pondering the valve cage problem , I have pushed on with the cooling fins one of the most repetitive jobs on the engine. And started milling the 
flange face for the inlet's
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Feb 28, 2016)

I am so far behind with this thread I hardly know where to start.
 Trying to shrink fit the valve cages was a big disaster, eventually I chose to use Loctite and all seems to have gone well at the moment.

 I am concentrating on one cylinder trying to work out the wrinkles before committing myself .

the valves have been made with the stems over length so they can be adjusted when the camshaft is fitted,cam box and cam are made but I am waiting for the screws and a 2.5mm tap set to arrive.

Brian.


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## Brian40 (Apr 4, 2016)

At last I seem to be catching up on my work load. 
No 1 cylinder head is complete with it-s cam box and valves and I have replaced the head that I damaged. the design has been altered slightly to increase the bore by 1mm so the engine is now 69cc so that's another job to rebore the cylinders meanwhile preparations are getting under way to return to the fitting of the valve cages. with the new system using Loctite.
to give you a chance to catch up I have another slide show on utube.

https://youtu.be/O-DXol8hwzE
Slowly slowly  Brian.


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## Brian40 (May 8, 2016)

Guilty of dragging my feet again. but I cant be in the shop and on this contraption- I have made a start on the four remaining camshafts.
https://youtu.be/E0hC__2SEW8
Brian.


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## gus (May 9, 2016)

Brian40 said:


> Guilty of dragging my feet again. but I cant be in the shop and on this contraption- I have made a start on the four remaining camshafts.
> https://youtu.be/E0hC__2SEW8
> Brian.



Hi Brian.
Its not feet dragging but taking a good rest before the next bash. Like me I was all set for the engine starting and discovered lube oil pump not pumping.
Found too many compromise and took a break and it took three months of feet dragging to get back. The hot weather was not helping either. Making a new pump and the gear case for the Howell V-2.


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## Brian40 (Nov 5, 2016)

Is it realy this long ago that I posted on this site?
well things have moved along a bit in the mean time.so a few photos to show the progress.
Brian.


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## crankshafter (Nov 5, 2016)

Hello Brian.
Nice work on the radial. When you are  finished it, will you provide drawings/ plans for it?
best Reg.
CS


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## Brian40 (Nov 5, 2016)

Hi Reg
When I am satisfied with it I will Publish a plans book with lots of individual drawings and photographs and links to the videos 
 that's along way off but the work of collecting and collating all the information is ongoing.
 Regards Brian.


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## petertha (Nov 6, 2016)

Brian40, neat build. It's coming along!

Q1 Re the fixture you machined for the RT, how do you center to the RT axially? Is it clocked in secured with the T-nut bolts, or do you have some sort of centering plug in the MT hole or alignment pin etc.?

Q2 what is the function of the 5 holes (arrow)?


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## Brian40 (Nov 6, 2016)

Hi 
The RT has T nuts that are hand fitted to the slots to ensure that zero is maintained. the jigs are centralised by a MT.

The crankcase  jig has a adaptor ring to covert from male to female and a master dowel pin indicated by the craft knife.

The second MT fits the lathe to align both jigs on the face plate.

The holes are just to reduce weight.

Always happy to answer questions.   Brian.


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## Brian40 (Oct 17, 2017)

It's been a long while but I am back in the shop, so this is the latest  from you tube. 
https://youtu.be/vf8YD7i-6kM 
Brian 40


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## rad45 (Nov 16, 2017)

Hi Brian  There are an excellent set of drawings available from a gent in north Germany, if you decide not to go to the trouble of designing your own.
I know his works as I built one to his design myself.
Jürgen Heinen  [email protected]


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## Brian40 (Jan 2, 2020)

My apologies for not posting of late my heath has not been at its best , but I have managed to make progress in the shop some of you may have even followed the progress of the radial on the tube.  
So to re kindle the flame here is the latest picture of the beast . it still requires pistons and oil pump  etc but is coming along nicely




Brian 40


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## petertha (Jan 2, 2020)

Keep up the work & health, Brian. Its looking great!


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## johnmcc69 (Jan 2, 2020)

Very nice! Looks great Brian!

 Good to see you back at it,

 John


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## NickP (Jan 3, 2020)

Brian40 said:


> My apologies for not posting of late my heath has not been at its best , but I have managed to make progress in the shop some of you may have even followed the progress of the radial on the tube.
> So to re kindle the flame here is the latest picture of the beast . it still requires pistons and oil pump  etc but is coming along nicely
> View attachment 113131
> 
> Brian 40


Hi Brian, I’m new to this thread (not to mention model engineering as a hobby) but am following along with great interest. Glad to see you’re back at it and hope your health improves for 2020 and on. Cheers, Nick


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## josodl1953 (Jan 3, 2020)

Hi Brian, nice to see you back on track.
Jos


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## bobden72 (Jan 3, 2020)

Looking smart Brian.


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## Brian40 (Jan 3, 2020)

Thanks for the welcome back an all the good wishes.
I think I have the oil pump firmly on the screen now  so it's time to push on. 
Another view .





Brian


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## xpylonracer (Jan 4, 2020)

With regard to slave rod location on the crankshaft to get all 5 cylinders to be on TDC at 72 deg intervals, there is an Excel file on the net detailing the dimensions needed to achieve even spacing, I have copy somewhere on a disc so could search if needed.

Marcus


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## Brian40 (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi Marcus.
To get the angles, I used my CAD program to draw the position of the  master rod at each interval, then measured the  angle for the new pin position. however it would be nice to confirm  my findings.
Thank you for your kind offer.
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Jan 5, 2020)

Found a diagram in my file .
Brian.


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## Michael Rosenbauer (Jan 5, 2020)

Hey Brian, impressive work. Looks great. I have never seen a radial with OHC.  Is that your design?
Keep on healthy.


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## xpylonracer (Jan 5, 2020)

Brian, simpler to get the files if you join the Radial and Rotary group as follows: https://groups.io/g/RandREngines
Slave rod centres layout by Brian Perkins, Master Slave, Radial Engine Balance.
You may also want to post some photos there of your engine.

Marcus


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## Brian40 (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi Michael.
Yes the design is original I think. I need something to keep the brain cells active, I will be 80 this year and need my workshop more than ever. you can find me on you tube search for Brian Hogger I am at the moment doing video  number 14 on this build. but don't hold your breath.

Marcus thanks for the information,
Thanks to all Brian.


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## Michael Rosenbauer (Jan 6, 2020)

Thats great, it is also my intension to keep the brain in a better shape.
I almost can do my job without thinking thats why I need a new challenge with 56.
You have my respect.


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## Brian40 (Jan 12, 2020)

I have made up a rig to test the pin positions on the master rod all the pistons come up at the correct 72° intervals so that's a relief.  
Brian.


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## petertha (Jan 12, 2020)

Hi Brian. Its been a while since I looked at this master rod / link rod compensation angle stuff. I know a lot has been posted on the forum previously, we could probably search for links. I have some of my files before 'the great PC crash' but not all. I still have my step-by-step (graphical) layout methodology, which I pilfered by someone on the old Yahoo R&R forum. I think I can make a PDF of that & post.

I might be remembering this all wrong so we may have to dig a bit deeper. But I seem to recall: assuming equal link rods/pistons/cylinder dimensions & radial layout, you can satisfy one parameter but not both. In other words if you have equal 72-deg layout on the master rod (365 deg /5 cyl) then you will have TDC occurring at 72-deg rotation. However the throw will be different resulting in different compression ratios across the cylinder. If you adjust the angle of where the link rod bottom end pin lays out on the master rod, you can achieve equal CR. But I think TDC will no longer occur at 72-deg, it must occur at some other crankshaft angle. On a glow engine, balanced CR is important if it varies too widely. The gas will fire when it fires, we have no direct ignition control anyways. On a timed ignition engine, I would assume the equal crankshaft angle is more important.

For example the Edwards 5-cyl has equal 72-deg layout, which by itself, results in significantly different CR across cylinders (spiky looking CR plot). But I think the design calls for altering the head shims or shaving the top of the liner lips to compensate.  Maybe an Edwards builder can chime in. By contrast another radial I looked at, possibly the Kinner, shows an angular compensated master rod layout & more equal CR compared to master. And the parts are all machined to same dimensions.

'Carl Sorensen' does that sound familiar to anyone? He wrote an article & Excel spreadsheet? That's what I used to adapt into these summary plots. I really should go back & clean up the tools.


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## Peter Twissell (Jan 13, 2020)

The old Yahoo R&R group was saved and is now [email protected]. Carl has been feeling his age recently, so I am now the owner of that group.
Carls spreadsheet is still there. I also created one (available on that group) which can handle up to 9 cylinders and also calculates balance.


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## josodl1953 (Jan 14, 2020)

Peter,
So far I found no adverse running  effects of the equally-spaced link rod pins in the master rod. The drawing of the cylinder liner ( the Robert Sigler version) specifies trimming of the liner top to achieve equal CR for all cylinders.





I myself adjusted the CR by trimming the piston crowns to the correct height because  in case of an error is is easier for me to make a new piston than to go through the elaborate and messy process of making a new liner.
As far as the spark ignition of the original Edwards is concerned: I found proof on the website of the Miniature Engineering Museum Collection  that the original Edwards did have spark ignition. I wonder whether Forest made corrections on the position of the link rod pins or that he kept the equally spacing.




Either way, it seems worthwile to investigate how  the linkrod configuration was arranged in "real " radial engines.


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## Peter Twissell (Jan 14, 2020)

Arguably, we are all building real engines.
Radial engines which we may consider to be full size would normally have relatively long slave rods relative to the pcd of the eyes on the matter rod, so the effect of the angles between those eyes would be less pronounced.
It is quite possible to correct ignition timing to match irregular tdc positions by manufacturing magnetos with irregularly spaced points cams.


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## petertha (Jan 14, 2020)

I seem to recall Carl's spreadsheet also calculated relative link rod angles through the motion range. I  cant remember if the 'equalized compression ratio' (compensated) layout geometry on the master rod made it slightly better or worse when it comes to link rod angles, specifically potentially interfering with the base of the liner skirt. That's another design consideration over & above the basic layout. Sometimes you see notches in the liner bottom end or the rods sections are minimized, particularly the long strokers. Another example where model & full size engines may not scale to one another in certain respects.

That's a good point about matching non-equal ignition timing requirements on the distributor or equivalent.


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## Peter Twissell (Jan 15, 2020)

My engine has equalised timing, which creates high rod angles on the cylinders opposite the master rod. I have created clearance in the barrel skirts for the rods.


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## xpylonracer (Jan 15, 2020)

When I built my Radian I was not aware of any such problems until I was checking clearances on final assembly, I used shims between the liner and head to provide equal CR to each cylinder but did nothing to correct timing of TDC.


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## Brian40 (Jan 15, 2020)

Simms motor units   produced  corrected magneto's  for radial engines , unfortunately it was all finished when I joined  the diesel  development lab  a long long time ago.
Brian.


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## Brian40 (Jan 31, 2021)

Well it's been a long time again  shop work just keeps getting in the way of sitting down at the computer and when I do it's normally
to order things for the radial. however we have now progressed to the point where the engine is in the process of final assembly  the carb is fitted   I have the coils  awaiting the delivery of the ignition kits so it looks like we may get it done this year.

I spent a long time trying to balance the engine  by driving it with the mill  and measuring the angle  and vibration with the scope ' not easy because the natural frequency of the rubber mounts i was using interfered with the results but with the help of the Vibe sensor app on the mobile i was able to  com to what i hope is is a good result I have a vibe period at about 1200 rpm but when you drive through that  It's down to a reasonable buss but time will tell.


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## Brian40 (Jan 31, 2021)

10 minutes ago

Add bookmark
#67
Well it's been a long time again shop work just keeps getting in the way of sitting down at the computer and when I do it's normally
to order things for the radial. however we have now progressed to the point where the engine is in the process of final assembly the carb is fitted I have the coils awaiting the delivery of the ignition kits so it looks like we may get it done this year.

I spent a long time trying to balance the engine by driving it with the mill and measuring the angle and vibration with the scope ' not easy because the natural frequency of the rubber mounts i was using interfered with the results but with the help of the Vibe sensor app on the mobile i was able to com to what i hope is is a good result I have a vibe period at about 1200 rpm but when you drive through that It's down to a reasonable buss but time will tell.

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Well it's been a long time again shop work just keeps getting in the way of sitting down at the computer and when I do it's normally
to order things for the radial. however we have now progressed to the point where the engine is in the process of final assembly the carb is fitted I have the coils awaiting the delivery of the ignition kits so it looks like we may get it done this year.

I spent a long time trying to balance the engine by driving it with the mill and measuring the angle and vibration with the scope ' not easy because the natural frequency of the rubber mounts i was using interfered with the results but with the help of the Vibe sensor app on the mobile i was able to com to what i hope is is a good result I have a vibe period at about 1200 rpm but when you drive through that It's down to a reasonable buss but time will tell.


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## Brian40 (Jan 31, 2021)

Oops can someone remove the extra posts Finger trouble again .
Thanks Brian  H


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## Brian40 (May 8, 2021)

Its been a long time again but the engine is almost ready to go all it needs is a oil tank non return valve (due in 2 days time)
and a can of fuel.


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## Brian40 (Aug 9, 2021)

After a lot of fiddling with the mixture and going over valve and ignition timing. IT  RUNS     the mixture requires further attention and the oil  system jet has to be smaller. but it has no vibration  after all my fears about that.

 Run time  is 30 mins in two sessions.








Video to follow    Brian.


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## Peter Twissell (Aug 9, 2021)

Splendid job, sir!
Looking forward to the video.


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## propclock (Aug 10, 2021)

Yea "IT'S ALIVE" !! what a great feeling .
  "O"scopes and engines  my favorite combo. 
Congratulations!


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## Brian40 (Aug 11, 2021)

At last the video     give it a whirl .

Brian.


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## cds4byu (Aug 11, 2021)

Beautiful work!

May I ask what you were adjusting between runs? I wasn't sure the goal of the different runs.

I can see you have done things very carefu)y and very thorough.  Congratulations!

Carl


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## ozzie46 (Aug 11, 2021)

Fantastic, congratulations!

Ron


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## Brian40 (Aug 11, 2021)

Hi Carl  
 Thank you for your question 
. I was adjusting the  mixture screw to make the mix richer  , Note that the engine ran on its initial prime from the pump at the rear of the carb but then stopped , I gradually  increased the mix until the motor ran evenly then ran it for 15 minuets. THen stoped it for  inspection  and allowed it to cool
It then then ran for a further 15 min. I now have to reduce the volume of the oil supply and do more work on the mixture.
 Thank you again for asking it's  important  if you don't know to ask.

Brian.


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## Thommo (Aug 11, 2021)

G’day Brian, what a great achievement! No easy task building one of those lovely radials. Well done.
Mark


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## Ratbag (Aug 12, 2021)

What an inspiring achievement . well done


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## johnmcc69 (Aug 13, 2021)

Excellent!!!

 John


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