# sometimes...



## somo (Apr 11, 2012)

This may be a bit long so I apologize in advance. 

First off, I am not a "papered puppy" meaning I do not have a piece of paper proving I am a machinist. I came to machining out of a love of creating, a love of precision, and thinking that tools and machinery are way to cool to not play with. I began my journey to being a machinist in high school when I took a metal shop class that included running a mill, a lathe, and doing some basic CNC programming (I turned a chunk of AL rod into the shape of a bullet and milled my name into a plastic sheet). In my teen years I spent hours in my dad's garage with drills, files, saws, hand tools, etc creating and building parts for my R/C cars out of plastic, AL, and steel. I was all ready to head off to trade school at 18 when life took me on a side trip.

Fast forward 5 years. After having the string of worthless jobs I landed a job (not in the machinist field) that allowed me the time and money to pick up machining as a hobby. I started buying mills, lathes, drill presses, welder, etc and started teaching myself how to use all these toys. This hobby carried on for another 5 years or so when at about 31 I gave up a 10 year career and decided to become a machinist. The first 4 years of this journey was on my own learning all I could including CAD/CAM, CNC milling, turning, welding, heat treating, material properties, etc. After 4 years of 60 to 80 hours a week I gave up trying to do this on my own and applied to a "real" machine shop and got hired. This shop is full of old times with no classroom experience minus the owner who went to school for "Tool and Die" at a trade school....in 1958.

Now, when I was hired I knew I would be the low man on the totem pole and I an A-OK with that but sometimes I hate being talked down to or being treated like an ignorant kid. I am 36 years old, have taught myself how to run a mill, lathe, measuring equipment, grinder, how to read prints, how to use SolidWorks to a point that I have had large companies come to me to convert prints to 3D models for production use, and can make MasterCAM beg for mercy. I can create and produce parts within .0005" on my mill and my lathe, can design and build fixtures for odd shaped, small, and or delicate parts for 10,000+ part production runs,
and have little to no problems figuring out even the most complex setup issues. I have now cut parts bigger then a family car all the way down to something that could sit on the eraser end of a #2 pencil. I am not bragging or being boastful but I am proud of my achievements. With all of that I am fully aware that there is TONS more to learn and believe me I want to but I feel like the janitor that is allowed to touch the machinery sometimes. 

I know more about CNC then ANYONE in our shop but I have been deemed "not qualified" to run the 2 Mazaks we have because I have not been shown the basics of the Mazak controller. Never mind I have 8000 hours of running a Haas CNC and probably 2500 hours in MasterCAM creating everything from simple drill programs all the way up to 3D contouring that take 8+ hours to run and have 50+ operations in a program. It is really frustrating and takes all of my will power when I see the 1 guy that is the resident CNC master (he spent 2 days in Kentucky learning how to use Mazak's convo programing) cock up a part due to poor setup techniques or relies so heavily on the Mazak to pick his speeds, feeds, and direction of cut (he conventional mills EVERYTHING) that it takes FOREVER to make a part, tool wear is atrocious, and his surface finish is horrid. He has no idea what G-code is (seriously) and told me "I can program better and faster at the Mazak. Your computer and Master whatever is useless in my opinion." as it takes him 1 hour to program and setup to mill a 7"x20" pocket in a hunk of 4140 that is only .375" deep. 

My blood is about to boil when that pocket takes 4 hour to cut and is left with big, nasty, sharp burs that could easily be taken care of with a chamfer mill but he does not know how to program to use one. So, I get stuck de-burring his crap while he walks off to text someone on his phone or read the sports section.... th_wtf1 

It also drives me completely crazy when they insist upon using fractions for everything. Our machines and tools use decimals, why do I need to keep converting everything. I am fully capable but it seems a waste of time to get a hand drawn print that has fractions and a note saying... 

"oversize the hole 1/2" hole by .030." 

That gets doubly frustrating when you are given NO tolerances so I have to ask... 

"So, do you want the hole to be .530" or can I just use a .5312 drill?"

I ask because one of these involves a bump up on drill size...one involves a boring head. Also, if they wanted a 17/32 hole, why not just put it on the freaking print?

Another thing that seems to annoy me is the speed at which I see some of the guys I work with get things done. I mean, come on, does it really take 2 hours to setup a horizontal mill in order to cut a 1" key way and then 10 hours to actually cut the slot in a 18 foot long shaft? I know it is not my shop, I do not sign the checks or anything but goodness. They could double my pay and I could still get the job done for less money. Arggggg!!!

Anyways, I am taking steps to remedy the problem. First step, I going back to school. I am trying to decide if I want to get a degree in Drafting and Design Tech or get a Machine Tool Tech degree. Either way, I need to have some kind of a light at the end of my tunnel because the thought of working like I am now is enough to make me want to give up. I want so badly to have a job programing, setting up, and running CNC equipment that I actually dream about it but on the other hand I love the design and modeling side. In a perfect world I could work in an R&D department where I could do both. 

Thanks for listening to my rant, sorry to waste so much of your day...


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## Maryak (Apr 11, 2012)

Hi somo,

The modern world runs on pieces of paper all showing how well we have been trained in whatever. They protect the company from litigation and reassure the insurance companies that risk has been minimised.

It's just the way of things in our lawyer/accountant run society.

Congratulations on recognising this and having the courage to to go back and start your own paper collection.

Best Regards
Bob


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## dgjessing (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm *so* glad I'm self-employed


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## fcheslop (Apr 11, 2012)

Hi Somo,that's the reason I left for another field of work after 30 years in elect control / robotics systems best thing I ever did and that was with the qualifications :big:.Good luck
best wishes Frazer


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## somo (Apr 11, 2012)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Hi somo,
> 
> The modern world runs on pieces of paper all showing how well we have been trained in whatever. They protect the company from litigation and reassure the insurance companies that risk has been minimised.
> 
> ...



The bad thing is...I have the most "certificates" out of anyone spinning handles. I have the SW, MC, and Haas certificates proving I have successfully completed training with these products. They mean absolutely nothing to the place I work...bummer.


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## rake60 (Apr 11, 2012)

somo,

I have read over your concerns twice now and I can understand your frustrations.

My own machining career spans just over 25 years.
I can do a little G Code, but I'm much better at Mazatrol programing.
Where I worked, we had a a Mazak training rep come in once a year for one on one 
training to keep our skills up to date with the machine capabilities. 
Very little changed from year to year, that we weren't already aware of.

If you are convinced the people who are doing the job are totally wrong, I would strongly
suggest you get yourself back to school to find out why they are doing it that way.

Rick


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## JorgensenSteam (Apr 11, 2012)

The "school" thing took a lot of time and effort for me, but it opened up a lot of possibilities that I am still enjoying today.

I continued to learn even after I got out of school (after school is when the real learning begins), and eventually knew lot more than my boss, and more than his boss too. 

I got tired of making money for people who knew much less, and did much less than I did, so I started my own business in 2003. Not for the faint of heart, but if you can market yourself, and deliver a good product on time, the demand is there. No 40 hour weeks in the land of self-employement though, but you are master of your own destiny, such as that may be.


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## somo (Apr 11, 2012)

rake60  said:
			
		

> somo,
> 
> I have read over your concerns twice now and I can understand your frustrations.
> 
> ...



Rick, they are doing things the way they are doing them due to laziness. Think about it, you are cutting a 1" wide, .5" deep slot in a 18 foot long shaft. If you break that down to the numbers it sounds pretty pathetic. Now, knowing the table has 27" of travel and the part is 18 feet long, you will have to set your part 9 times. If you took 2 hours setting the machine up with all your stops initially (which it should take half that time, I know, I have done it) you should be able to move the part and start re-cutting within 15 minutes for the last 8 which with the original setup time is 4 hours. Add that to the total from cutting at only 2 ipm at 100rpm (with the cutter being used gives a CL of less then .001" and a SF of 100) you have 108 minutes of cutting time which is less then 2 hours. That should be 6 hours to do the job which includes milking setup and my co-worker takes twice that long (12 hours for EVERY shaft).

I think sometimes I am kept doing the lower end work and off the CNC because if the owner knew how much some of the other guys have been sandbagging they would get chewed out. 

 The owner also have the mentality "this is how I was trained to do it and this is how we have always done it" even though tool tech has changed a little in the past 50 years. Also, when it comes to the Mazak's and tech support...not happening. The newest machine is a 1994 and the older one is 1989. My boss bought them at auctions so like I said...no tech rep.

I am in a "collage refresher" course right now due to the fact I have been out of school for 18 years. I can sign up for classes at the end of this month and will be doing so. I will continue to work here until I graduate because the foreman is a great guy and seems to sympathize with the dilemma I am in. I am a hard worker that loves the field of machining. I have a good knowledge base but due to others I am not able to utilize it so I am stuck drilling holes and squaring up blokes 95% of the time. I just wish they would let me loose on something that could highlight what I am good at.


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## bearcar1 (Apr 11, 2012)

If you as talented as you say you are, and I am not doubting that fact, why don't you send some resumes to other shops. Surely there are other shops that would recognize your talents for what they are and would be more than happy to exploit them. You would be much happier and the place you are at can then continue to wallow along. Forgive me for sounding cold but this is the real world and if you are that frustrated with your present situation, do something positive about it instead of complaining. You have the power over your environment and we do not so it is a waste of time typing out long winded rants for all the world to see. Just my two cent worth, nothing more, nothing less. Best of luck to you in sorting it all out.

BC1
Jim


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 11, 2012)

Somo: first of all welcome to the board. 
second of all some free advise take it for what it is worth .
Take a breath relax build some engines that is what this board is about . you are your own boss in your home shop have fun . You do not have to worry about inspectors  ect....

As far as work goes I think we have all been there and been frustrated with how the bosses want things done . We do not have to like it but do have to respect the fact that the boss is the boss he owner is the owner. You can either be patient and wait for an opportunity to prove yourself or look for a better situation. 

Also IMHO be careful how much you complain in public. Yes the internet is a very public place if word gets back to the boss that you are in major disagreement with him he may want to to be looking elsewhere. and you may have fewer choices.
Tin .


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## somo (Apr 11, 2012)

Actually, the shop I work at is a 30 minute drive...next closest is almost an hour. I need to shoot my resume to other shops but I would need a pretty good increase in pay to offset the extra hour of commuting a day. You are 100% right though...this is in my control to fix.


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## Troutsqueezer (Apr 12, 2012)

Life is what you make it.


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## tattoomike68 (Apr 12, 2012)

Interesting read.

I was programming computers in 1982, damn good but it did not get me anywhere.

I got strait A's in college, took engineering, welding , machining,surveying, math, drafting and all the CAD I could. I was in the computer lab till late at night,the staff would lock me in and let me stay. All of it was easy. I could stagger in with a huge hangover and get 100% on my finals.

Then I went out into the real world and now know college is just a little tiny taste of the big challenges you see out in the work force. 

Now days if I go to college I want a paycheck.


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## rake60 (Apr 12, 2012)

somo  said:
			
		

> "this is how I was trained to do it and this is how we have always done it"



That can be a problem.
If we all did it the way the first guy was trained to do it, we'd all be cutting keyways with a file.
Best of luck with your endeavor.

Rick


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## tel (Apr 12, 2012)

Yes, that situation can be frustrating, but, on the other hand, new blood coming in and wanting to change things can be bloody annoying as well. And there might well be other reasons you are not aware of for things being done the way they are. At the end of the day it is a job - that's where you do what you are told to do, the way the boss tells you to and in exchange they give you money. Be happy with that.


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## somo (Apr 12, 2012)

tel  said:
			
		

> Yes, that situation can be frustrating, but, on the other hand, new blood coming in and wanting to change things can be bloody annoying as well. And there might well be other reasons you are not aware of for things being done the way they are. At the end of the day it is a job - that's where you do what you are told to do, the way the boss tells you to and in exchange they give you money. Be happy with that.



I am not trying to change everything...or even one thing. I just want to be utilized not used as a block squaring, hole drilling, material cutting idiot. I am just going to show up, do what I am told to do to the best of my ability, get a check, and go home. In less then 18 months I will be done with schooling and be on to bigger and better things. It really stinks because I really do like the guys there, I just hate being looked down upon and treated like I have no idea what I am doing because I am ONLY 36...not in my 60's.


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## Harold Lee (Apr 12, 2012)

Somo,

Welcome aboard. I appreciate your perspective and ambition. As a retired 66 year old, I appreciate the fact that the advancements in the world have been made by those that didn't accept the "status quo" and felt they could forge a better path... Having lived a while in Alaska, I watched the Salmon swim upstream, spawn and die, only to leave their progeny who were orphans, a better world. 

If any period shaped my life it was the 60s when everything was upside down. I remember Woodstock and the "mayhem" that took place in that week of 1969..... Twenty years later on the evening news I remember the newscaster was interviewing an attorney that was in a three piece suit and during the interview showed him at Woodstock naked from the waist up and having flowers painted on his body, The newscaster said "You were pretty determined to change the world then". The attorney said "Yeah, but you have to remember, we were only twenty years old then. What do you know when you are twenty".... I shouted at the TV, Yep and you have to get forty to realize that.

I think the difficult part of life is to put ourselves in the other persons place since they have walked a different path... Right? Wrong? Good? Bad? nope!! We just all share this and thank God for those that have a better way to do something. They will change the world!!! BUT Thank God there are those that have worn the path that others will follow because they will stabilize the world. We all need both!!!

Hang in there and be patient with us old farts that think we know. We need you to question and change things. But let's do it together...

Thank you in advance for your contributions to our community. We need you.

Harold


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## somo (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks Harold. Like I said, I do not want to change how any other person does his job, I just want the ability to show what I can do. It kills me to be standing in front of a Bridgeport or one of the Cincinnati mills for 20 hours knowing I could get the same amount of work done in half the time and far more precisely at the CNC mill that is 50 feet away from me...turned off. That same mill only gets turned on once a week and only cuts maybe 10 hours a month. I am sure my boss would love to be getting the extra added to the bottom line if I cut his labor cost (for me at least) in half on a job or two a week.


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## Stan (Apr 13, 2012)

Somo: You sound like the ideal person to be self employed. You have the ability to run a one man shop which can provide a very comfortable income. You would likely have to keep it as a one man shop because I don't think you could find employees that meet your standards. A few basic machines and a few repeat customers would keep you happy. Right now, you are stressing yourself to death. No job is worth that.


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