# Building Elmer's #11 radial 3 cyl



## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi all. I'm a new member and this is my first post.
Has anyone built this model? I would like to start on this model with a few changes.With limited capabilities I'm thinking round cylinders would be easier and nicer looking. I saw a generated picture in the gallery section that is almost exactly what I had in mind and I like the idea of exposed piping and cylinder studs. Would these changes necessitate a change in the bolt pattern or dimensions? How would the steam/air be routed through the cylinder heads? Would reducing the pistons down to .500 cause a clearance problem for the connecting rods? I'm relativity new to machining and building these small engines. Any info or first hand experience dealing with these dimensional problems would help.
Anything at all would be appreciated. Thanks. Rick M

UPDATE: I now go by the name of Metal Butcher or simply MB. I don't mean to causing confusion. I made this change to simplify, and eliminate it's possibility. ???

Thanks. MB


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## chuck foster (Feb 23, 2009)

welcome rick

i cannot answer your questions about the radial engine but one idea might be to build one according to the plans and then build a second one with all the modifications that you want.
by building the first one you will gain more machining experience and as you build it you will be able to see what can and cannot be changed.

hope this helps a little

chuck


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2009)

chuck foster  said:
			
		

> welcome rick
> 
> i cannot answer your questions about the radial engine but one idea might be to build one according to the plans and then build a second one with all the modifications that you want.
> by building the first one you will gain more machining experience and as you build it you will be able to see what can and cannot be changed.
> ...


That's an excellent ideal. I have been thinking about building two at the same time up to where one stops and other build continues to follow Elmers exact plans.
But building just one that runs would be nice!


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## Maryak (Feb 24, 2009)

Rick,

Welcome to our forum. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2009)

I found a (707) formula on the web to calculate bolt circles and that led my approach to doing the necessary calculations need for my proposed changes. I came up with dimensions that should work. With that in hand I started doing the "Swiss Cheesing" operations on the crankcase.
As a precaution I took all my hammers up to the garage, locked them in my tool box, and handed the key to "honey" for safe keeping. ;D

RickM..


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## mklotz (Feb 27, 2009)

Here's my version of the engine






It runs very smoothly and is a fun build. I made the valve cover plate from transparent plastic so the valve motion would be visible. Adjusting everything so the valve seats well is tricky but not unduly difficult.

It will be very difficult to use Elmer's (very ingenious) valve arrangement if you want to forego the air channels drilled through the cylinder and use external piping.

I don't know what your experience level is but, if you're just starting out, I would suggest that you build the model to Elmer's plans first. That will make you intimately familiar with the details and in a much better position to assess the feasibility of changes.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2009)

Wow! That's super! The clear cover is a neat idea!

Is your base parkerized steel?, it's what I have in mind to add weight for stability.

Did you machine the 1/16 valve pin? I'm considering using a separate pin pressed in and loctited. 

I consider my level to be just past a beginner. With this radial the most difficult, and my twenty eighth build since Nov first of 2008.

RickM..


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## mklotz (Feb 27, 2009)

The base is indeed steel, though not Parkerized, to counteract vibration. As it turned out, the engine runs very smoothly and I'm not sure the extra weight was really needed.

I machined the valve crank pin because there's not enough meat there to drill a hole for a separate pin IMO.

28 builds since 11/1/08 ?! Quelle rapide! That's an engine every 4+ days!

I expect to see a picture of your finished radial when I return from lunch.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The base is indeed steel, though not Parkerized, to counteract vibration. As it turned out, the engine runs very smoothly and I'm not sure the extra weight was really needed.
> 
> I machined the valve crank pin because there's not enough meat there to drill a hole for a separate pin IMO.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean about not much meat for that 1/16 hole, but crazy is as crazy does, so I'll try anyway!

No on the "rapide". 18 of those are identical copies of 2 models that were completed in 4 weeks. Also, I forgot to mention I'm Retired and spend most of my time in the shop. I only come up for air (smoke), sleep, food, and a related issue. Any other distraction makes me @&%$#&@ mad!

RickM..


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## mklotz (Feb 27, 2009)

Back from lunch (beer and sushi - the monk fish liver was especially tasty) and no pictures! I'm devastated.

If you insist on fabricating and not turning that pin my suggestion would be to drill the 1/16" hole before turning down the spigot, secure the pin with Loctite 609, and then turn the spigot. That way the thin wall of that 1/16" hole will be well supported when the turning is done.

Rick, where are you located? I'll give you a karma point if you go back and put your location in your profile and under your yet-to-be avatar (see under old Albert to the left).


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Back from lunch (beer and sushi - the monk fish liver was especially tasty) and no pictures! I'm devastated.
> 
> If you insist on fabricating and not turning that pin my suggestion would be to drill the 1/16" hole before turning down the spigot, secure the pin with Loctite 609, and then turn the spigot. That way the thin wall of that 1/16" hole will be well supported when the turning is done.
> 
> Rick, where are you located? I'll give you a karma point if you go back and put your location in your profile and under your yet-to-be avatar (see under old Albert to the left).



The way I see it is this site is the problem! Instead of machining I'm spending too much time reading all the great posts!

Wow. Turning the spigot was exactly the way I was planning on doing it! I must be catching on naturally. I figure the drill will take the path of least resistance, right out the side.

I'll get help to do that avatar thingy since I'm clueless on these computter skills.

Location: Why, the greatest location in the nation, Cleveland, Ohio!

RickM..


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## mklotz (Feb 27, 2009)

I took the liberty of putting your location in your profile. Now all you need to do is find a suitable avatar.


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## tel (Feb 27, 2009)

> It will be very difficult to use Elmer's (very ingenious) valve arrangement if you want to forego the air channels drilled through the cylinder and use external piping.



Not impossible tho' - I managed to incorporate 'em in my fabricated Cygnet Royale, which looks to have a very similar valve arrangement.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2009)

That,s a very interesting motor. It looks very similar to Elmers radial, but with a separate intake and exhaust porting?

How would one get to see a copy of these plans?

Thanks. RickM..


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## Bill Mc (Feb 28, 2009)

Hi richardmarszalek - If you go to the MODEL ENGINE NEWS (MEN) website in Australia you can order the DVD with that engine (and many more) engines on it for 15 or 20 bucks and that also makes you a member of the club. - BillMc


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## Richard1 (Feb 28, 2009)

I have the original Model Engineer magazines covering construction of the Cygnet Royale and I think I also have a construction guide for it. If you want I will have a look and see if I can find them. I was working on a twice size Cygnet Royale when the workshop got robbed and I lost most of the parts but I am sure I still have the drawings. I'll be away from home for the next few days but will check then. - Richard.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 28, 2009)

Bill Mc  said:
			
		

> Hi richardmarszalek - If you go to the MODEL ENGINE NEWS (MEN) website in Australia you can order the DVD with that engine (and many more) engines on it for 15 or 20 bucks and that also makes you a member of the club. - BillMc


 Great! Thanks for the info. :big: That motor looks a lot more complex, plus all that soldering. Defiantly for a builder more advanced than me. However, I hope to improve my basic skills and be able to complete more complex models such as that one.

Thanks. RickM..

Richard1- Thank you too with your offer to help. :bow: 

Edit:Here's a picture of my modified version of Elmer's radial, work in progress.





These are 10 parts I completed as of today,day 6. I'm usually finished, or very close to finishing an engine at this point in time. Since I'm posting on this forum a decision was made to slow down a bit. After all, this is #28 engine since November 1st. This slowdown is working well for me. So far no broken taps or drill bits just to mention a few of the things that normally happen during my builds. Today I'm making the valve, and if that's all I get done then that's just fine by me!

EDIT: This is the 29th engine.

Will it run With all the changes I'm making? Soon we will all know! 
If not, then I might be changing my screen name again! :big: MB


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## chuck foster (Mar 2, 2009)

nice work .................... now let's see some pictures of all the other engines you have built 

chuck


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## Metal Butcher (Mar 2, 2009)

aermotor8  said:
			
		

> nice work .................... now let's see some pictures of all the other engines you have built
> 
> chuck



Hi Chuck. Thanks for your interest. I will be posting pictures in the near future (I get help with the picture posting).
Below is a quick link to a few recent ones I built in memory of Elmer Verburg. There is also a separate album titled Richards shop showing my modest (but messy) shop and tools.
MB
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Elmers_Engines_1/photos/album/1103774351/pic/list


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## Brass_Machine (Mar 2, 2009)

Very nice start. I was the one who did the 3D generated model... was running through some modifications to see how they would look. Have you thought about some 'cooling fins' on the cylinders?

Eric


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## Metal Butcher (Mar 2, 2009)

Brass_Machine  said:
			
		

> Very nice start. I was the one who did the 3D generated model... was running through some modifications to see how they would look. Have you thought about some 'cooling fins' on the cylinders?
> 
> Eric



Thanks. That,s a really nice 3D, and exactly what I had in mind after looking at Elmers drawings. I don't have a 4 jaw chuck or know how to use one, so round cllinders were the way to go. Fins? That's a good idea that didn't cross my mind, although I did that operation when I built a sterling fan designed by Dr. Senfit named "Moriya". Sorry if I misspelled. MB


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## Metal Butcher (Mar 3, 2009)

Update: a few more parts I made for the radial.






The critical dimensions of the steel PISTON RODS are unchanged, only the profile was altered along with a Tool Black treatment to ward off rust.

The altered aluminum PISTONS are .500 x .500 with the wrist pins central at .250

The brass VALVE is as per Elmer's plans (5 holes w/oil grooves).

VALVE CRANK, as per plans. I did follow through with making it with a separate 1/16 valve pin and it worked like a charm. I can just see a ghost image of it on the brass!

The brass Connecting hub (4 holes) is per plans.

The 3 wrist pins are made of steel.

This is day #8 and all is going well. I need to order all the 2-56 screws since I only have 5 screws , 2 are too long, 2 are too short, and my personal one is loose! :big:

Thanks. MB


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## Brass_Machine (Mar 3, 2009)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The critical dimensions of the PISTON RODS are unchanged, only the profile was altered along with a Tool Black treatment to ward off rust.
> 
> ...



What exactly is the Tool Black treatment? Looks good so far! 8 days...

Eric


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## Metal Butcher (Mar 3, 2009)

Brass_Machine  said:
			
		

> What exactly is the Tool Black treatment? Looks good so far! 8 days...
> 
> Eric



I don't know exactly what it is.

I bought it from Enco. It comes as a blue liquid in a plastic 32 oz. bottle.

I like it, and I also like to parkerize (gray color) raw steel parts and tools.

It seems the bottle of either is lasting long and might not ever need replacing. All you really need is the 32 oz tool black since most of us already have degrease r, spray oil, ect. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=847&PARTPG=INLMK3&PMITEM=825-8158

WOW! It was like $29 when I got it..guess its been a while!

MB


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