# Making a Model Train - Steam Engine



## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Hi all!
I am a mechanical engineering student. I plan on making a small model train for this project using scrap or easily available materials(as this is a college project I can't just buy any parts).
I am planning to use either a stirling engine or a steam engine for the locomotive.
Could anyone please tell me which engine would be the best for this process? 
I prefer steam engine though. An info that could help me get started in a right way would be greatly appreciated.
And any additional details would be greatly helpful!

Thank You.


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## Jyman (Nov 28, 2013)

Hi,

It sounds like this would be your first engine your building, so I would say to build a steam engine. It would be a little more forgiving on the measurements.  Just be careful playing with the boiler if you make one, they can get really dangerous really fast. 

Jon
4th class Power Engineer


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## stevehuckss396 (Nov 28, 2013)

I would agree with the steam being your first. They can be run on compressed air safely. If you plan on running on track for any distance you will need the boiler.


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Greetings sir Mr. Jon!
Thank you for your quickest reply. Yes I do understand that a boiler can be very dangerous. But a small boiler used to produce steam for the toy train can be fatally dangerous too?


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## kvom (Nov 28, 2013)

Stirling engines are quite low power generally, and harder to make for a beginner.

Yes, small boilers can be dangerous.


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

stevehuckss396 said:


> I would agree with the steam being your first. They can be run on compressed air safely. If you plan on running on track for any distance you will need the boiler.



Greetings Mr. Steve!
Yes I plan on running it on tracks that I will be constructing later and the loco will have to pull some around 3 or 4 light weight coaches.
Any ideas on how shall I choose materials and begin?

Thanks.


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

kvom said:


> Stirling engines are quite low power generally, and harder to make for a beginner.
> 
> Yes, small boilers can be dangerous.



Hello and greetings Mr Moderator!
Okay now I understand that I small boilers can be dangerous too.
So could you suggest me some tips or ideas on how to choose the materials and get started? This is a college project so they require me to use easily available materials like scrap and others to make the train.

Thanks.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

First of all what you are proposing will be a little bit of a challenge for a first build but doable with perseverance and support. 

I am thinking something that looks like this. 







You can purchase this as a kit with 120 page build book for $150.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3137&category=386435363

The above kit is a materials kit and plans you will still have to machine all the parts yourself. 

Cracker is a similar design and you can find the plans here.

http://www.john-tom.com/MyPlans/SteamPlans2/Cracker/CrackerSteamEngine.pdf


Some history of this type of engine. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Dribbler
This should get you in the right direction. 

And since you are an engineering student you may want to use this as a jumping off point redraw tweak edit add etc. 
Tin


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Greetings sir 
Thank You for all the valuable info!
But as I mentioned earlier this is a college project. No 'buying ready-made things' allowed.
But as I was thinking, I came up with a simple idea that I put it on 'PAINT' instead of some CAD or Solidedges as this is s beginning point.
Kindly have a look at this drawing and let me know if this design would work and what all errors I have made.






[/URL][/IMG]


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

PG  If your requirement is to scrounge materials. the kit Idea may not work but not to worry the cracker plans are there. 

I would att you get a hold of a copy of this book as it will give a lot of helpfull advise. 


http://www.amazon.com/Making-Simple-Model-Steam-Engines/dp/1861267738

As far as materials  read here 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f27/selecting-first-engine-build-15183/

Copper for the boiler is best. bronze bushings in the boiler. 

As for the rest of it it is a matter of choice. Brass everything is beautiful but may be expensiveness . Cast iron wheels are nice but need paint. Aluminum  is fine for most parts as well.  

So find a piece of copper pipe the right diameter and and old brass kick plate off a door and you are off and running. 

Also be careful of scrap. there are many grades alloys of steel aluminum brass etc. Mystery metal can be very frustrating to work so try to find cutoff surplus of know material. 

And what is your location. 
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

I think our posts are crossing. 
Your design well you have a lot to learn. 
like I said use the cracker plans as a jumping off place. 
Tin


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

I live in Hubli, Karnataka, India sir.
And I went through the awesomely written post by you on how to choose and start for the first engine. I have few questions
What material is best suited for a boiler needed to produce steam to run the toy train pulling the coaches?
How to easily or perfectly make the safety pressure relief valve for the boiler?


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

> What material is best suited for a boiler needed to produce steam to run the toy train pulling the coaches?



Heavy wall copper pipe. get a piece long enough to form the end caps out of the same material.  



> How to easily or perfectly make the safety pressure relief valve for the boiler?


 Kudos for thinking of this  but not a real worry IF you use an oscillator design for the engines. oscillators typically have a spring that holds the cylinder tight against the port block if the pressure  get to high the steam blows out the steam port. 
Other valve systems do require a pressure relieve there are a few designs . a spring and ss  ball will do the job I am sure we can come up with a design if you need one. 
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

And a better visual of what a completed cracker looks like.


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## stevehuckss396 (Nov 28, 2013)

Tin, I think his concern with it being a collage project is that he has to come up with his own design. If I read it right, he has to design his own loco and then build it. I believe pre-existing designs are off limits.

I could be wrong.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

Steve :
Original design not mentioned. he does say he needs to make his own parts and assemble them. 
He seems to need some help knowing where to start. so gave a couple proven designs for inspiration. 

I am all for out the box thinking but one must have an understanding of what a box looks like and what it contains before out of the box occurs. 
Tin


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Greetings again Mr Tin!
So, using a spring system for a safety valve would require accurate design calculations or trial and error method right?
Also I am very very confused about the dimensions sir. I need a basic set of dimensions for the startup parts such a way that I am able to get them easily from scrap or household items(as my project requires me to).

Thanks.!


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Tin, I think his concern with it being a collage project is that he has to come up with his own design. If I read it right, he has to design his own loco and then build it. I believe pre-existing designs are off limits.
> 
> I could be wrong.



Steve sir you are little bit right about that. My project requires me to make the engine using scrap or household materials. Efficiency has been removed from consideration.

So all I need is to make the engine just efficient to pull atleast 3 wagons(light weight) on the tracks.


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## Wizard69 (Nov 28, 2013)

princegift said:


> Hi all! I am a mechanical engineering student. I plan on making a small model train for this project using scrap or easily available materials(as this is a college project I can't just buy any parts). I am planning to use either a stirling engine or a steam engine for the locomotive. Could anyone please tell me which engine would be the best for this process? I prefer steam engine though. An info that could help me get started in a right way would be greatly appreciated. And any additional details would be greatly helpful!  Thank You.



Seriously if this is a project for college I'd skip both the Sterling and the steam engine if you have that option.    Instead put an electric motor in the unit and go on to the next college project.  

WHY?

Simple really, in one word "TIME".  If you try the approach of a hobbiest you risk spending to much time on this at the expense of other classes.   I wouldn't go too far beyond meeting the requirements set out in the assignment.   It is good to do a little extra and be creative, just don't get consumed by the project.


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> Seriously if this is a project for college I'd skip both the Sterling and the steam engine if you have that option.    Instead put an electric motor in the unit and go on to the next college project.
> 
> WHY?
> 
> Simple really, in one word "TIME".  If you try the approach of a hobbiest you risk spending to much time on this at the expense of other classes.   I wouldn't go too far beyond meeting the requirements set out in the assignment.   It is good to do a little extra and be creative, just don't get consumed by the project.



Greetings Wizard!

I absolutely agree with you in all aspects. But the theme itself is 'STEAM' !!!!
There were few topics that were brainstormed by everyone and then chits were picked. We have to do the 'Steam Engine driven Greentrain'


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

> Also I am very very confused about the dimensions sir. I need a basic set of dimensions for the start up parts such a way that I am able to get them easily from scrap or household items(as my project requires me to).


Why confused I gave a link to a design for a complete yet fairly simple steam locomotive. 

http://www.john-tom.com/MyPlans/SteamPlans2/Cracker/CrackerSteamEngine.pdf"
you may need to think and use some imagination. As an engineering student you should be able to read a blue print and compile a bill of materials. 

Tin


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> Why confused I gave a link to a design for a complete yet fairly simple steam locomotive.
> 
> http://www.john-tom.com/MyPlans/SteamPlans2/Cracker/CrackerSteamEngine.pdf"
> you may need to think and use some imagination. As an engineering student you should be able to read a blue print and compile a bill of materials.
> ...



Yes sir I have gone through the link you gave me. All the details and dimensions in all views are shown perfectly. But for that type of engine I should buy all raw materials from 'MARKET' and then machine them according to the dimensions.

It would mean that I am deviating from my main theme! So I was asking you about some materials that I could use from scrapyard or things found at home or make something out of waste.

Thank You.


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## Jyman (Nov 28, 2013)

I have a question for you princegift, by answering this question we might be able to help you out a little more. 

What is your time frame for this project?


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## Jyman (Nov 28, 2013)

We wouldn't want to lead you down a road that takes months when you only have a couple weeks. That's why I'm asking


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Jyman said:


> I have a question for you princegift, by answering this question we might be able to help you out a little more.
> 
> What is your time frame for this project?



I have been given time till January 15 2014 to get atleast a "partially or non-working" model ready and then again time till february 28th to get it working. 

Thanks.


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## Jyman (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok that's a doable time frame, what kind of tools or equipment do you have access to?


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Well I have access to a lathe, milling machine, drilling machine. But the machining process should be least or the machining of parts on those machines should be very less sir.

Thanks.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 28, 2013)

I still do not see your confusion. a machined parts is a machined part. A boiler is a boiler. 
If your project requires that you scrounge  or buy from a scrap dealer then do it.

I purchase very little from market most of what I use are "drops" metal that drops on the floor after  what is needed is cut . I have used pieces of coat hangar and bicycle spoke for engines. I have made flywheels from brass plate stock. 
Like I said copper plumbing pipe or apiece of brass waste pipe.  for a boiler.

Find some old wheels or gears that you can reshape for wheels and flywheels crank disks. . Printers and copy machines have plenty of steel shaft material. 

The american inventor Thomas Edison  used to say the only thing you need to invent is a little imagination and a big pile of junk.
 so print out the plan set  i sent the link for. Find a big pile of junk and pull out the item s that you need to make the parts on the paper. flat copper can easily be hammered into a cup shape and plate stock can be made into round flywheels. 

I can not tell you what is in your local scrap yard you will just have to look. 

Tin


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## princegift (Nov 28, 2013)

Okay sir 
I will start with this right away.
Will keep updating about the status as it develops!

Thanks.


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## lennardhme (Nov 28, 2013)

Without doubt the easiest type of steam locomotive to make would be a vertical boilered type. Look up DeWinton slate quarry loco. This would do away with most of the superstructure & could be run with a simple oscillating engine. Easy to bend a basic frame & minimum parts. Can be made as small as HO [00] scale.
This would at least give you a chance at completing the project in a reasonable time.
Leonard


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## Wizard69 (Nov 29, 2013)

princegift said:


> Greetings Wizard!  I absolutely agree with you in all aspects. But the theme itself is 'STEAM' !!!! There were few topics that were brainstormed by everyone and then chits were picked. We have to do the 'Steam Engine driven Greentrain'


The simple approach would be a steam turbine.  Here I'm thinking Hero's aeolipile.    Not exactly practical but it would put on a nice show!   If you don't need to pull the cars far it would be a fun solution.


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## abby (Nov 29, 2013)

May I suggest that if an "engineering student" seeks advice on an online forum for something as simple as a railway locomotive then he is probably doing the wrong college course.
I realise that this will probably sound like a harsh comment but his college should be teaching him something about engineering not how to scrounge information and materials.
Everything that he needs to know from the strength and suitability of materials to the power required to move a specified weight is available elsewhere and I respectfully suggest that he would get more understanding and possibly better course marks by finding out from accredited sources rather than amateur, after all this is supposed to be his project not ours.
It is bad enough that Asian industry produces such crap machinery but one day this guy may be working on India's nuclear power generation programme and go looking down the bazaar or whatever for a bit of "metal"
Another Chernobyl ! heaven forbid.


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## princegift (Nov 29, 2013)

abby said:


> May I suggest that if an "engineering student" seeks advice on an online forum for something as simple as a railway locomotive then he is probably doing the wrong college course.
> I realise that this will probably sound like a harsh comment but his college should be teaching him something about engineering not how to scrounge information and materials.
> Everything that he needs to know from the strength and suitability of materials to the power required to move a specified weight is available elsewhere and I respectfully suggest that he would get more understanding and possibly better course marks by finding out from accredited sources rather than amateur, after all this is supposed to be his project not ours.
> It is bad enough that Asian industry produces such crap machinery but one day this guy may be working on India's nuclear power generation programme and go looking down the bazaar or whatever for a bit of "metal"
> Another Chernobyl ! heaven forbid.



Hi!

Let me tell you something.
First of all nobody asked you here for some rude suggestions or insulting remarks.
I am a student from Indian engineering college not any technical course college.
NOTE: Many Famous and legendary scientists and engineers are from India
I myself am person having interest in any and almost all fields. I am a musician leading the band Gifmerize since 3 years.
I am a gold medalist in athletics.
I am the soccer captain of my school, then college.
Still there are many others which I would not like to put down here.

Now I want to do something in the mechanical field through this project.
In your place and college they may be spoon-feeding you with each and every ready-made details. I can clearly assume that by reading your post.
AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR POWER??? HA HA HA
But keep in mind it is not the same with us. We struggle, research, take advice and ultimately achieve something.

Thanks!


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## Sshire (Nov 29, 2013)

Abby
A brief note about your totally inappropriate comments. 
Having taught college for 33 years in technical and engineering areas, it astounds me how "off-base" you are. 
Yes, engineering students learn mathematics, material properties, physics, design, etc. However, a more valuable and desirable skill is not taught. That is how to learn and how to design/ build around obstacles. The obstacles may be a limited budget, not enough information provided in the design specs or a totally new way to make something or perform a process. 
For this student to ask questions or to want to know how to get around a limitation is admirable. It it how we learn. 
This isn't a new concept. Apprentices have been doing it for centuries. 
I could go on, but I'm hoping you get the point. 
When I started building model engines, I had never seen a mill. My total contact with lathes was of the wood variety. 
I asked questions and received gracious and friendly help and advice.
Comments such as yours are why the helpful members of HMEM (like Bogs) have left this forum. 
I'm impressed that you know everything and don't need to ask questions. 

Stan 
M. Ed, Ed.D. and member of Mensa who still asks questions.


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## princegift (Nov 29, 2013)

Sshire said:


> Abby
> A brief note about your totally inappropriate comments.
> Having taught college for 33 years in technical and engineering areas, it astounds me how "off-base" you are.
> Yes, engineering students learn mathematics, material properties, physics, design, etc. However, a more valuable and desirable skill is not taught. That is how to learn and how to design/ build around obstacles. The obstacles may be a limited budget, not enough information provided in the design specs or a totally new way to make something or perform a process.
> ...



Greetings sir!

I truly admire the words said by you. Those are the words and thoughts only an EXPERIENCED professor can express!

Thank You


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 29, 2013)

AbbY: we have had students from third word counties show up here seeming show up and almost demand someone hand them a plan for a complete senior project.
That behavior is not allowed here. 
PG has come here looking for help ,support and guidance. He has asked respectfully. 

My son built his own steam engine when he was 14 . Not many kids are that fortunate these days. Shop classes are being replaced with math science and mock court rooms. 
Like Stan said design and engineering is about limits and learning to work within them . Learning to work around and through and trample obstacles. 

In the USA during WWII reuse re purpose repair recycle was the way of life.Many of us have forgotten that. 
So the goal of building a steam engine of prepossessed parts is cool. 

There is way too much knowledge in this world for university to teach it all to a student. University is to learn how to learn, how to investigate how to discover. 

All are welcome here who want to learn about building engines the only exception might be someone showing up to design an Engine for commercial mass production and expecting us to do his or here research. 

We are not here as a consulting service to do the work for an engineer or engineering student. 
we are here to help others learn how to learn and where to learn that includes engineering students. 

PG no need to get too defensive all here are entitled there respectful options . This is a forum so we expect and encourage various points of view as long as they are presented in a respectful manner. 

Stan thank you for your perspective. 

Tin


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## princegift (Nov 29, 2013)

Greetings again sir!

Thank You for your encouraging words and support. 
And I wanted to say that I have begun the process of 'search and collect' raw materials from scrapyards, storeroom, etc!

Very soon I will update the progress made so far.

Thank You!


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 29, 2013)

> Thank You for your encouraging words and support.
> And I wanted to say that I have begun the process of 'search and collect' raw materials from scrapyards, storeroom, etc


Sounds good 
It may help you to write a bill of materials list to speed the collection process. 
And sometimes close counts woks you may have to tweak the plan set to fit material. and take your calipers and or machinist rule with you as youselect. materials. 
Tin


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## princegift (Nov 29, 2013)

Yes surely I will do that


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## abby (Nov 29, 2013)

It is quite apparent that regardless of IQ , experience etc, etc , that the point I was trying to make has gone over your heads so I will say no more other than "the blind leading the blind "
Goodnight Vienna !


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 29, 2013)

Well Abby there is no rule saying you need to agree or understand the views of the staff here you just need to respect them.
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 30, 2013)

PG A note about scraps. the Ideal material for model engineering  is industrial manufacturing machine shop scraps. Many scraps from a screw machine shop are ideal.  A screw machine take a 10 foot piece of bar stack and machines parts off the end when the machine get to the end of the bar there is typically a 100 mm long piece left that is too short for the machine to use. Any material from a scew machine should be easy to machine. 
Again a plummer has a ten foot piece of pipe cuts what he needs and often has short pieces left over. This type of scrap is ideal for what you are doing.
And if you show the guys in the shops what you plan to build and why they may give you the pieces you need. 
And old washer dryer or refrigerator will give you lots of sheet metal. printers copiers  shafts and bushings. And like I said earlier a brass kick plate from an old public building door will give plenty of brass plate for a small loco. and take pics and document. 
You may have to pound pavement (US vernacular for lots of  walking) and visit a few places to get what you need. and do not be afraid to collect a little extra and select the best finds for your project. 
Tin


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## princegift (Nov 30, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> PG A note about scraps. the Ideal material for model engineering  is industrial manufacturing machine shop scraps. Many scraps from a screw machine shop are ideal.  A screw machine take a 10 foot piece of bar stack and machines parts off the end when the machine get to the end of the bar there is typically a 100 mm long piece left that is too short for the machine to use. Any material from a scew machine should be easy to machine.
> Again a plummer has a ten foot piece of pipe cuts what he needs and often has short pieces left over. This type of scrap is ideal for what you are doing.
> And if you show the guys in the shops what you plan to build and why they may give you the pieces you need.
> And old washer dryer or refrigerator will give you lots of sheet metal. printers copiers  shafts and bushings. And like I said earlier a brass kick plate from an old public building door will give plenty of brass plate for a small loco. and take pics and document.
> ...



Greetings sir 
Okay I will do that starting tomorrow morning. Will collect as much as possible!

Thank you.


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## lennardhme (Nov 30, 2013)

Folks, I have been communicating the this fellow privately, & his parameters are a loco at least 15" long & capable of pulling a human sized load. This is not a feasible project in the time frame given, particularly one made from scraps.
I have reservations that this is a bona fide college project. Happy to help anyone, but a little honesty helps as well.
Leonard


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## princegift (Nov 30, 2013)

lennardhme said:


> Folks, I have been communicating the this fellow privately, & his parameters are a loco at least 15" long & capable of pulling a human sized load. This is not a feasible project in the time frame given, particularly one made from scraps.
> I have reservations that this is a bona fide college project. Happy to help anyone, but a little honesty helps as well.
> Leonard



Greetings sir!

I agree with what you said.
Actually here in India, to make some small or model locos or bikes or cars needs no licensing or registration. No one cares about what innovation you have achieved. Else India wouldn't still be a 'Developing Country'.
And as you mentioned, Yes my coordinator argued with me for 25 minutes that building such big model(real working model) would take me a year atleast even if they provide me with access to all the CNCs at our college.
But I talked him into giving me a green signal! 
I went through the drawings and found that 'the smaller the Loco, the smaller the parts!' So it would be a challenge machining out such small parts, this was the other reason for me to go for a bigger loco as it would have slightly bigger parts.
So now I accept that for my first Loco and for the time frame I have to make a small Loco.
Now let me stop myself making very high assumptions and move ahead as you suggest me to.

Thank You.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 30, 2013)

Well Leonard not sure what to say there. Sometime engineers are expected to do the impossible. We are not mind readers so can only answer questions based on the information given. This may be a team effort as is often the case with engineering projects. 
I am not going to over speculate. 

When the kid said small model train I am thinking HO not 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch to the foot  or 3 1/2 in 7in gage. HMMMMM


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## princegift (Nov 30, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> Well Leonard not sure what to say there. Sometime engineers are expected to do the impossible. We are not mind readers so can only answer questions based on the information given. This may be a team effort as is often the case with engineering projects.
> I am not going to over speculate.
> 
> When the kid said small model train I am thinking HO not 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch to the foot  or 3 1/2 in 7in gage. HMMMMM



Greetings Tin sir.

Yes you are right. This is a team project. We are a team of four. But here they make teams based on the roll number. And all my other teammates are girls. So I don't want to put much pressure or work load on them.
I will be a 'One man army' for time-being 

Thank You.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 30, 2013)

While machining tiny things has its own challenges and difficulties scaling things up has problems as well. 

for example building a 1 1/2 to the foot locomotive vs 3/4 into the foot the end product  will weigh 8 times as much cost 8 time as as much and take almost 8 times as long to build. 
Ok maybe some exaggeration on the time but it is literally 8 times the material. IMHO you should have listened to your adviser/ coordinator. 

OK out with the cracker plans. but john -tom.com has several larger plan sets you need to look at. 

Hmm army of one IMHO not going to work. This needs to be a team effort. you need to find the strengths of your team members and delegate.  If you have an artist in the group use her artist are visual and see things that others may not. Learn to delegate pull the whole load and you will soon tire and fall.  Ultimately the four of you will succeed or fail as a team. Start dividing the work now to insure success. And attitude !!! all of you need to believe you will succeed.  believe you will fail you will. believe you succeed you will. Pull together as a team. 


> And all my other teammates are girls. So I don't want to put much pressure or work load on them.


Do your best to divide each step of the work in four equal parts and as much as possible let them choose there assignments. That way they are taking on there own work load. you may end up with the leftovers or batting cleanup but they will have a choice. 

You need to look at your team members as fellow classmates. If they are engineering students at the same level as you they need to do the same work and may need to get there hands dirty. 

Tin


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## princegift (Nov 30, 2013)

Yes sir now I regret to have been talking him into allowing me to lift the allowed dimensions for the project.
Tomorrow the team will be brainstorming and contributing some ideas on who is going to do what. May be then i ll be able to divide the work.
So now I will make a small Loco only which would act as a first step in my Model building career(a hobby).
Once this is a success, I will build a bigger loco for myself and perhaps one day start a Steam Model Club(inspired by Mr. Leonard and Mr. Tin).

Thank You.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 30, 2013)

PG if you can print out or make digital copies of several plan sets so all the team members can be on the same page. 

Agreeing on a plan will be your first step.

Tin


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## princegift (Nov 30, 2013)

Yes sir I will do that surely tomorrow!
So now I will make a small Loco only which would act as a first step in my Model building career(a hobby).
Once this is a success, later I will build a bigger loco for myself and perhaps one day start a Steam Model Club(inspired by Mr. Leonard and Mr. Tin).

Thank You again.


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## lennardhme (Dec 1, 2013)

Tin,
I'm sending Gift [as he asked me to call him ] scans of the DeWinton style vertical boiler loco in Stan Brays 'Making Simple Model Steam Engines' Nothing in their local libraries.
As you know this is a basic build designed for the novice so should be a good starting point for them. His latest email seems to have more reasonable expectations.
I have been to India & have an understanding of the hardships they work under, & facilities they have.
Happy to work through a team build if you think appropriate, but concerned about the confusion this could create for them. Too many good ideas can be a bad thing?
cheers,
Leonard


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## princegift (Dec 1, 2013)

Greetings and good afternoon sir!

I thank you for your kind consideration. 
Another reason why I suddenly jumped my heights of making a Big Loco was after seeing the mesmerizing videos of 'ALTONA miniature Railways'
They were so cool and awesome! Why don't we have such clubs here??
The people were enjoying their rides.
Everyone was having great fun
So many Locos
Some steam engines- small and big....pulling loads or humans
Some diesel
some electric
And some were driven by kids too!

Wooooowwwwwww...........!!!!


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## Sshire (Dec 1, 2013)

Leonard
Stan Bray's builds and plans are excellent for a beginner (and beyond). Great idea.


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

> I have been to India & have an understanding of the hardships they work under, & facilities they have.
> Happy to work through a team build if you think appropriate, but concerned about the confusion this could create for them. Too many good ideas can be a bad thing?
> cheers,
> Leonard


Len at this point in the game I think as many options on the table is a good thing . But quickly a plan need to be established and concentrated on. The worst thing is a great idea pops up half way through the project. 
Sounds like you have a much better understanding of his culture than I do. Take a look at rose and juliet here Plans
At this point they need to establish Size of engine and boiler. 
And leonard if you want to guide and Mentor I think that an excelent Idea as long as they have the final say and own the project. And from what I have seen gift will want the final say. 
IMHO the team needs to focus on function and let form  take a back seat not time to worry about the bells and whistles. (did i say that ?) yes pun intended.
Cheers all this is going to be fun. 
And gift I encourage you and your team to post progress hear as this project develops. 

tin


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

> Leonard
> Stan Bray's builds and plans are excellent for a beginner (and beyond). Great idea.


And the Author has a really cool first name 
Tin


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## Entropy455 (Dec 1, 2013)

One comment that caught my eye on this thread - is that the engineering students have access to metal working equipment (lathe, mill, etc). Question: so how many of your engineering students are machinists also?

Where I work, our machinists go through a 4-year apprenticeship program. They receive hundreds of hours of formal training on how to operate metal working equipment, and then they spend thousands of hours honing their skills on the machines. The apprentices will usually be tasked with rough-cutting parts to approximate dimensions, and then a machinist will finish the parts per plan. After four years of this formal & supervised OJT, the employee receives the title machinist and starts finishing close-tolerance parts of his own. This may seem excessive, but in our line of work, first-time quality parts are mandatory  whereas defective parts will result in a loss-of-life.

I am a mechanical engineer. My job is to sit at a desk and make sure that machine designs are safe and efficient. I seldom interface with our machinists at work. And when I do, its to evaluate and approve non-standard repair procedures, or to specify special heat controls, or to authorize a deviation from plan. Point being - an engineer will never go out onto the production floor and take control of a lathe & mill, and start cranking out parts on the job. So WHY is your engineering professor having you do this?

You should be designing the locomotive from scratch  identifying the starting material for every part  specifying alloy, grade, temper, etc - and specifying every dimension and tolerance. You should be identifying the stress and strain within every piece, and specifying the design factor-of-safety. You should be required to determine the enthalpy, entropy, quality, and mass-flow-rate of the system fluid across every valve, piston, boiler tube, and steam component within the system. And lastly, you should be able to calculate and provide the overall thermodynamic efficiency and net power output of your design. This is what an employer will expect from an engineer.

I agree with Abby. Building a steam locomotive (while totally cool) is not a mechanical engineering design project  it is a metal-trades project. The fact that youre seeking to procure a preexisting design for an easy grade, is a giant RED FLAG. You should discuss this with your professor.


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

Entropy : I am not here to argue the point you made . for here in the USA in this day and age there is a clear line between a machinist and an engineer as professional titles and positions. 

In the armature world hobby world it is a different story. 

In the late 1800s early 1900s   in the US  the line between Engineer and machinist was somewhat blurred Engineers were expected to have hands on knowledge of machining, pattern making, foundry work etc. As well as the ability to calculate stress strain etc. And manage and supervise. 
As gift mentioned he is from a "developing nation" so this may be the case in I India. 
I agree whatever project he chooses should be under the supervision of his professor adviser . And he needs to work within specified parameters to make the grade. 
I agree it is the engineers job to make the calculations specify the material tolerances etc. but how is a student going to prove a design except to build it with some assistance. 
Tin


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 1, 2013)

I think everybody needs to take a break and look at this from another angle. If this fellow from India had not identified himself as a student and was a 60 year old guy, would you care what the intended goal was? Look at it for what it really is. Here is a fellow from India with little to nothing to work with trying to learn how steam engines work so he can build a model train. Other than the India part that sounds like about half of the people here on this forum. Bottom line he is here to learn and ask questions and quite frankly so am I. This is why we are here and thank you mods for providing us a place to do it. Why don't we forget why and concentrate on what he is doing and try to help out if we can. I personally don't have anything to add because I know jack about steam but if I could help I would. Lets forget about the student part and get back to the spirit of the forum which is to help him out.

Cheers!


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

Well stated Steve. The goal from the beginning has been to make all welcome who want to learn about building model engines. The only other stated prerequisite is the ability to act in a respectful manner.  
I do expect honesty as well. the guy who introduced himself as being from the USA and had a Chinese IP address did not last long. 
And after all model engine building is known as model engineering in other parts of the world . One definition of engineer is one who builds runs or manages engines.

Tin


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## lennardhme (Dec 1, 2013)

OK, so the plan of action is this.... I'm sending Gift scans of the plans afore mentioned. If those plans are suitable for his group, we need to make up a parts list, so they can go hunting & scrounging. Then they can start an orderly build.
Its been difficult to give Gift advice as the goal has moved steadily larger with his enthusiasm.
One problem I foresee is that Stans would naturally be a patented book, so I cant post plans on this forum for other members to view; need advice here Tin.  Gift can of course post pics of progress.
Are you able to do that Gift?
so, a start.
Leonard


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 1, 2013)

lennardhme said:


> Its been difficult to give Gift advice as the goal has moved steadily larger with his enthusiasm.




Hello Lennard!  

Hey, the heart wants what the heart wants. When he goes scrounging, what he finds will dictate what he builds and if materials are scarce, the goal will start to shrink back down. You might be sending him plans for a simple wobbler.


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

> One problem I foresee is that Stans would naturally be a patented book, so I cant post plans on this forum for other members to view; need advice here Tin


.

Len it is the policy i not to share plans that are under current copyright especially recent work . The Stan bray book is recent. Sharing copy-written material is illegal. 
However posting a page or three for review and discussion  is ok. As long as full credit is given. 
If you post pages 144,145,146 and 153 it will show the essence of the engine but no where near the full plan set. 

You can of course choose page numbers but strive for the essence of the engine minimum pages and limit detail to protect the copyright holder. So anyone who wants to see the full plans order the book. 




The book is readily available here in the USA for about $30 depending on where you buy it. Mine came from Walmart.com  they were the cheapest now are on the higher end. 


Simple model steam engines book

Tin


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## lennardhme (Dec 1, 2013)

Hi Stevehuckss396, if you read the posts the goal has already shrunk back to his original ambition - a small steam loco. I dont agree with scrounging for materials then build to what you've got.' For a project to succeed you must work to a plan. If you cant source the materials then you fail. That wont happen in this case cause if they cant source materials, I'll send them to him, but I have confidence that they'll be able to get the materials locally. The loco is not that involved.

............................................................................................

This will be a 'team build' with a difference. They have to do all the work. So what I propose, so that forum members are included, is that the project be divided up into components, eg boiler,boiler fittings, burner,frame,wheels, axles, engine, etc. Someone with the expertise can instruct/help Gift & his group build the component at the appropriate time & in a build sequence, then the next person can do their bit.
If this sounds OK then I'd be happy to hear from members who could help. 
Leonard


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## lennardhme (Dec 1, 2013)

Tin,
I follow what is required re copyright.
Tin $30.00 is half a years wages in some parts of the world.  Have already asked him about library availability, & not available. 
Cheers,
Leonard


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2013)

> Tin,
> I follow what is required re copyright.
> Tin $30.00 is half a years wages in some parts of the world. Have already asked him about library availability, & not available.
> Cheers,
> Leonard


Len I understand what you are saying I am suggesting folks here in the US or in the UK where itis published that want the book should buy it. 
You also have to realize that as an administrator of this board I can not and will not  promote or condone the sharing of copyright protected material other than a few pages for review. 

I can say thank you for reaching out and wanting to help this kid and his colleagues. 
I have no problem with people helping and guiding . And the progress can be posted in the team build section.  
Tin


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## lennardhme (Dec 1, 2013)

Tin,
I had not anticipated people have to buy the book at all. I just acknowledged your policy re copyright.
I can supply them with the appropriate info for the parts they are to monitor building.
Cant think of another way to team build this.
I have never built an engine to plans anyway, always change something, usually only base my build around the plan.
I dont mind if his build is based on an open forum though. Interested to see what will happen.
cheers,
Leonard


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## princegift (Dec 15, 2013)

Greetings to all the honorable sir(s) here!

I am extremely sorry I was away. I was busy day and night working on the steam engine. I actually forgot that this is a christmas season!
Sir Leonard has been very kind and helpful all the time. He has explained me theoretically how the loco works and sent me few plans too. We have finished with the machining of wheels(used MS bars of a scrapped BUS from a scrap yard) and done with the axles and the support frames too.
Leonard sir has sent me the plans for a DeWinton style vertical boiler loco from Stan Brays 'Making Simple Model Steam Engines'. It is a twin cylinder oscillating engine type.
But the plans for piston, safety valve and regulator are missing. Haven't heard from Leonard sir since quite sometime. I guess he is having some problem there with his new pc that he bought recently or something else. Hoping to hear from his soon.
Tomorrow we are planning to start with cylinder piston machining sir(s). But the plans for piston, safety valve and regulator are missing. Could anyone please spare their valuable time and help me out on this?

Thank You again!

(Below I am posting a pic of the wheel)


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 15, 2013)

> Tomorrow we are planning to start with cylinder piston machining sir(s). But the plans for piston, safety valve and regulator are missing. Could anyone please spare their valuable time and help me out on this?


Will see what i can do. 
Tin


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## hobby (Dec 17, 2013)

Very nice job on those loco wheels, machining the parts to accuracy, at the model scale size, will greatly enhance your ability to know how to design and construct larger components, in your field of interest.

To know whats involved in the hands on experiance of machining mechanical parts, will greatly help you to know how to design for real world situations, what can be done and what can't be done with machining tasks on certain parts of a design, as well as what machines would do a specific task, that would need to be accomplished.

This hands on training is a great benefit towards your goal to be a mechanical engineer.

Keep up the great work.


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## princegift (Dec 19, 2013)

Greetings to everyone!

I am posting the progress so far. Kindly have a look at the pic. It contains few parts we have machined so far.

Thank You.


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