# Bolton #7



## AlbertdeWitte (Jul 12, 2016)

Guys

Ive ordered the above engine in Dec 15 and till today there is no delivery from them

Are there anyone on here who dealt with the company. You can PM me please

Albert


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## Herbiev (Jul 12, 2016)

Who did you order from. E&J Winter here in Oz ?  If so i would give them a phone call. They are slow but 8 months is pushing it.


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## AlbertdeWitte (Jul 13, 2016)

Herbiev said:


> Who did you order from. E&J Winter here in Oz ?  If so i would give them a phone call. They are slow but 8 months is pushing it.



Herbie

Yes it is them, I had many people phoning him already, he is not barging. Yesterday I got a very nasty mail.


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## Jasonb (Jul 13, 2016)

If you don't have any luck I think this engine could quite easily be made without castings using a mix of fabrication and cutting from solid using the original drawings that were in Model Enginner back in 1924.

Depending on what the hold up is it may be worth seeing if they will supply what castings they have now and then just make up the missing ones if its a case of not having all the castings in stock.


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## AlbertdeWitte (Jul 13, 2016)

Jasonb said:


> If you don't have any luck I think this engine could quite easily be made without castings using a mix of fabrication and cutting from solid using the original drawings that were in Model Enginner back in 1924.
> 
> Depending on what the hold up is it may be worth seeing if they will supply what castings they have now and then just make up the missing ones if its a case of not having all the castings in stock.



Thanks Jason

I dont have that Magazine, do you have a copy perhaps?


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 12, 2016)

Hi Guys

Its now formal, I've been conned, no engine no refund!!


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## blanik (Oct 12, 2016)

AlbertdeWitte said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> Its now formal, I've been conned, no engine no refund!!


Albert,

E & J Winter (Bolton Scale Models) changed ownership around two months ago.  Your experience in ordering and paying for something, and not getting it delivered, was apparently common, and probably the reason that the previous owner went broke.

The new owner is Ben DeGabriel.   If you've been contacting the previous owner using the old phone numbers or addresses, that is probably why you've been having no success.

The business still uses the same web address (http://www.ejwinter.com.au), but is now located in Bathurst, and so now has a new postal address and phone number.

I've dealt with the new owner, and he seems to be a much better operator that the previous owner.  

I know of one other person who ordered and paid for castings when E& J Winter was under prior ownership, and that person has also not received the paid for goods.  

The legal advice that he received was that as Ben DeGabriel appears to have bought the business, trading name, stock, designs, patterns, and good will, it would appear that the new owner has an obligation to deliver the goods that you ordered and paid for.  The reasoning being that you ordered the goods from the business (E & J Winter - Bolton Scale Models), and not from the individual who previously owned the business.

I'd strongly recommend telephoning Ben DeGabriel, and talking the problem through with him.  Under Australian law, he can't fob you off by saying that you placed the order with the previous business owner.

If talking to the new owner does not work, and you paid by Credit Card or PayPal, make a claim for refund via your Credit Card Issuer (or PayPal as appropriate), on the basis that the goods have never been delivered.

I hope that information helps. 

Regards,

Roy


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 13, 2016)

Roy

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your response!!

I will certainly contact the new owner. Also ignorance from my side as I was not aware.

Thank you soooo much

Albert


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## Herbiev (Oct 13, 2016)

Apparently there was a change of management earlier this year but that is no excuse for the way you have been treated. I would contact the consumer affairs department in New South Wales and try for a refund 
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/About_us/Contact_us.page


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 14, 2016)

Herbiev said:


> Apparently there was a change of management earlier this year but that is no excuse for the way you have been treated. I would contact the consumer affairs department in New South Wales and try for a refund
> http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/About_us/Contact_us.page



Thanks Herbie

I've don so with a reminder and also no response from them.

I've sent an complete email yesterday to the new owner and awaiting his response....keeping my fingers crossed


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## Herbiev (Oct 14, 2016)

Good luck and hope you get a satisfactory outcome soon.


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 18, 2016)

Herbie and others

The new owner made contact and explained that he cannot assist me.....


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## Herbiev (Oct 18, 2016)

Thanks for keeping us informed. Hopefully this will help stop others from dealing with this company.


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 19, 2016)

I have received a new response from Ben the new owner and he indicated he will followup with Kelly for me...


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## Herbiev (Oct 19, 2016)

That sounds promising. At least there is communication taking place.


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## AlbertdeWitte (Oct 24, 2016)

AT long last Kelly promised me a refund this week.....


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## Jasonb (Oct 24, 2016)

If you are getting a refund you may want to enquire with Historic Models ands Reproductions who are working on the compound that was published a year earlier in Model engineer in 1923 which would make a good alternative to your 1924 one. Or just fabricate the Bolton from the drawings that were in the magazine.

Its not on their website yet but a couple of casting sets have been built up to prove the castings & drawings, one is complete, the other almost done.

http://downrivertools.com/historic-models-and-reproductions?p=1

Is Kelly not able to produce the castings rather than give a refund?


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## blanik (Oct 24, 2016)

Jasonb said:


> .........Is Kelly not able to produce the castings rather than give a refund?



Kelly was the previous owner of the business (E & J Winter - Bolton Scale Models). Kelly encountered some business difficulties and eventually the business was sold to the new owner (Ben DeGabriel) sometime around July or August 2016.  

As Kelly no longer owns the business, he no longer has the capability to personally deliver the castings that Albert ordered.

Once Albert receives his refund cash, I'm sure if he still wants a set of Bolton #7 Castings, that he'll be able to order them from Ben DeGabriel.

Regards,

Blanik


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## AlbertdeWitte (Dec 27, 2016)

Well guys

Its with sadness that I write this post.

After many promises from Kelly I am not refunded. He ignores all emails since December.

I am posting this just to say I writing it off and I shall never do any business with him.


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## Charles Lamont (Dec 27, 2016)

As has been said here before, the new owner appears to have taken over the business as a going concern, and he is probably legally obliged to fulfil the order whether he likes it or not. Your difficulty may be in proving the order was placed. You are considerably out of pocket and my £0.02 worth of advice would be to get some advice.


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## grapegro (Dec 27, 2016)

Hello Albert,
                  Ben and his wife seem very good people, good to deal with and appear honest. Have you contacted Ben with the whole story and get his answer? Seems he would have responsibility to at least help in your case. Ask him if he is committed to previous orders. Good luck.
Norm


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## AlbertdeWitte (Dec 30, 2016)

Guys

Like I said before, Ben is fully aware and not able to assist, He did speak to Kelly that what I know.

Thanks


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## Cogsy (Dec 30, 2016)

Have you gone back to Ben now that Kelly has failed to refund you? I'd be contacting consumer affairs again http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ft...ontact_us.page if he won't help. If the new owner does not support you I will certainly never be purchasing from him and I'll make aware anyone considering a purchase of this conduct. We're a fairly small and tight-knit community so I don't think the business will last long if word gets around of poor business practices like this.


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## XD351 (Dec 30, 2016)

I think Ben is as much a victim as Albert and it wouldn't surprise me if there  are more people that have been ripped off.
I doubt that Ben would have been told of the outstanding orders and may not have them in stock anyhow.
I ordered a book in late November 2015 and it took many emails and phone calls to  to the previous owner to finally get what i ordered and about 4 months waiting time .
I purchased a casting set for a flat twin two stroke from them about two years ago and ended up pegging most of it in the bin , worst castings i have ever seen but they were old stock from the original owner who sold the business to kelly .
 Consumer affairs should sort it out as they can possibly hunt down the previous owner and look at getting your money back or at least point you in the right direction .
I have recently ordered some materials from Ben and it landed on my doorstep inside a week and considering he was still sorting through boxes of stuff to see what he had in stock i think that was a pretty good effort.


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## Cogsy (Dec 30, 2016)

XD351 said:


> I think Ben is as much a victim as Albert and it wouldn't surprise me if there are more people that have been ripped off.
> I doubt that Ben would have been told of the outstanding orders and may not have them in stock anyhow.


 
From the sounds of it I highly doubt he would have been told of outstanding orders but when you buy a business you take on the warranties and outstanding orders and you have to honour them. I've looked at his website and it makes a big deal about the long history of the business and it's integrity. If you're going to trade based on reputation you have to uphold it. 

I feel for Ben if he got stung on the purchase but he has to follow the law, and good business practice, and either honour the purchase or refund the money. Then of course he's free to pursue the previous owner through a civil action for recovery of his costs (something which is virtually impossible for Albert to do from overseas but simple and inexpensive for Ben).

It's a good measure of a business by how it deals with difficult situations rather than 'normal' transactions.


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## Jasonb (Dec 30, 2016)

It would be interesting to know if Ben is actually running it as a new company, I see the name is now "EJ Winter - Bolton Steam Models" which was not what it was called before the changeover in which case you are not dealing with the same company and they may have no legal obligation to honour old orders.


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## Cogsy (Dec 30, 2016)

The 'about us' page on the website says the business has been running since 1922 so it's safe to say it's the same business, even with a name change.


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