# Webster I.C. redesigned as hit and miss----



## Brian Rupnow

Last year, I built a Webster I.C. engine from plans that I downloaded off the internet. http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8388.0 They are a great set of plans, and I am most impressed with the engine. I haven't machined much lately. Its summertime, and the hotrod cruise/show season is in full swing, and my (other) hobby, a 1931 model A roadster pickup has been filling my spare time. BUT----I 'bin thinkin'------
   I think hit and miss engines are kinda neat. I built the Chuck Fellows hit and miss steam engine, and it performed well. Once I have built an engine, worked out the "bugs", and have it running well, its just not that interesting anymore. (after you've showed your wife, your kids, your grandkids, and any unsuspecting friends or neighbours that drop by---)
   I've been looking at the Webster, and thinking---The thing that makes a hit and miss engine hit and miss is a function of some type of centifugal governor energizing a mechanism to hold the exhaust valve of its seat at high RPMs untill the engine slows down, then the exhaust valve is allowed to seat once more and the engine fires again untill the RPMs pick back up again.
  Now if I was to move the gas tank, and run a jackshaft in a set of pillow blocks in the spot where the gas tank now occupies, and drive it with a chain drive, and the jackshaft had a set of bob-weights on it and a lever---and the exhaust valve lifter is right there close at hand---Hmmmmm----Food for thought----


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## cidrontmg

Ehe, this has all the trappings for using another "BRIANS FLYBALL GOVERNOR", only slightly modded...   woohoo1
Go for it, it would be a nice mod indeed. A chain drive might be just the ticket, it wouldn´t introduce any huge power losses. Or maybe a belt from the flywheel, to a small driven wheel, just to get the balls moving really fast.
Another one here who likes hit´n miss engines.


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## cfellows

Brian,

Sounds like an interesting project!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Chuck---I was hoping you would chime in here. I did a little research this morning---I fired up the Webster, and as it set there running on the bench, I snuck my long handled screwdriver in and held the exhaust valve off the seat---and the engine quit just like I expected it to. (I knew it would, but I still had to do that---I wear a belt and suspenders.) Now I just have to chew on methodology for a while before I begin to actually design changes.----Brian


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## zeeprogrammer

I like hit-n-miss engines too. I'm looking forward to it.
I remember the Webster you did and the fun you had with the fuel tank.


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## jpeter

I'm new here so my comment might not mean much. But anyway; that engine looks a lot like a Duclos designed hit'n miss called Maverick but with timing gears. He had an interesting approach to the governor. Its hard to discribe but photos are available on the web. Check it out.


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## Brian Rupnow

Dang, this could get interesting.--the entire concept would be to make all the peices for making it a "Hit and miss" simple bolt on peices. That way it wouldn't ruin the engines original ability to run as a non hit and miss engine if I wanted to change it back. I haven't shown it, but I would put a pulley on the crankshaft of the Webster engine and drive the governor puley with an o-ring drive belt which is twisted though 90 degrees the same as on my twin horizontal steam engine. You will also note that this time I would build the governor as a 3 ball unit.


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## Brian Rupnow

Nah, it isn't going to work, and here's why. My Webster has an aluminum flywheel. I drilled it and inserted a number of brass plugs to make it heavier, and it performs quite well to run the Webster in its current form. However, its simply not heavy enough to keep everything rotating if it "misses". It only has to "miss" once, and it very quickly comes to a stop. Not enough rotating mass to make things work as a "Hit and Miss" engine. I could move the outboard bearing support over and machine a wider, much heavier flywheel from steel, but that goes beyond what I want to do modification wise. I'd be further ahead to simply design and build a new hit and miss engine from scratch. I hunted around and found Philip Duclos' Maverick engine, and it does look pretty impressive. Does anybody have information on this engine? Are the plans available?---Brian


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## crankshafter

Brian.
Hey hey hey. That's some good ide. Why not put up the drawings of the governor on the download section and I(and surely others) will give it a try. Me have a steel/bronze flywheel and i think I have the mass that's needed.
I have had thougts on making a governor for my Webster, but this is some great plans.
Best regards
CS.


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## cidrontmg

Hi Brian,
You may be right with the ali flywheel not having enough momentum. Many hit and miss engines have 2 rather heavy flywheels, just to get enough mass swinging, of course. Would there perhaps be room enough to make a brass/bronze rim around your present flywheel? Maybe milling some space for it from the baseplate? There would seem to be space enough between the bearing supports for a somewhat wider rim. Even a rather thin rim of bronze would work wonders, I think. Even better  
would be a lead ring, of course. Gold would be ideal... stickpoke


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## Brian Rupnow

Crankshafter Way back in the distant past, I did a thread on building a 2 ball governor. I can't remember now whether I actually posted a thread on the 3 ball governor or not. Only a couple of the parts changed. I am not going to turn my Webster into a hit and miss for reasons stated. I am however, building a 3 ball version of the governor right now, just to put in a boring afternoon. I will start a new thread for that.---Brian


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## crankshafter

Brian
I'm seeing forward to your 3-ball governor wrightup :bow:
CS.


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## cfellows

Brian,

I've seen several different builds of the Maverick and although it's one of his simpler engines to build, I've never seen one that I thought ran very well. I would probably opt for his OddBall Six Cycle hit n miss engine.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZMpr2NFM5o&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZMpr2NFM5o&feature=related[/ame]

Of course, I also like his original hit n miss engine, the odds n ends hit n miss.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1yxKnYLEA&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x1yxKnYLEA&feature=related[/ame]

Chuck


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## jpeter

Hey, I built a Maverick and it runs great. I must admit I modified it to incorporate timing gears though; did away with the indexer. 
A comment on the suggested governor design; seems most hit'n miss governors incorporate a catch to catch the exhaust valve and hold it fully open. In the plan shown it appears the gov only slightly holds open the exhaust valve, a much different approach than one would normally find. I question that design because the valve would never fully seat. The valve might overheat and be troublesome to adjust into the miss mode. Might be easy though to fashion an escapement to catch the rocker arm to hold the valve open.


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## Brian Rupnow

I can't help myself----I'm going to do it!!! I checked today, and I can move the outboard bearing support over about half an inch. This will give me enough room to take a peice of 4" diameter brass or steel x 1 1/4" wide, hog out one side to 3.75 dia. x 0.75 counterbore, drill a 3/8" clearance hole on center, and slide it right over the existing flywheel and screw it to the face of the existing flywheel. This lets me keep the same crankshaft with no changes. That should give ample weight for the engine to keep rotating in a "open valve" state. I will have to machine a clearance pocket right below the flywheel to let me go from the existing 3 3/4" flywheel to the larger 4" diameter. I just finished building the 3 ball governor----I'm excited about this!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

School me, my brothers---Do you think it falls into the world of possibility to drive a govenor on a hit and miss gasoline engine with an o-ring drive belt? It works very succesfully on my twin horizontal steam engine, but when it "fires" there is nowheres near the same blast of torque that you get from an I.C. engine. Now, methinks this could go two ways. First way, that sudden blast of torque when the engine fires is sure to make the drive pulley slip a little bit in the o-ring belt.--However, it will probably catch up fairly quickly, and speed the governor up enough to lift the exhaust valve and slow the engine down. Second way---those neoprene o-rings are very elastic. I'm not sure what the result of that will be, but I think it will be the same as the First case---the o-ring will stretch elastically during the power stroke, then quickly "unstretch" during the exhaust, intake, and compression cycle. The net result will be a bit of lag from when the engine "hits" untill it begins to "miss". I have spent some time today studying the "silver Angel" engine, which has a most unique vertical camshaft, driven off a horizontal crankshaft, thru a set of 90 degree bevel gears. The flyball governor is attached to the camshaft. This makes me think that "all things being equal" the flyball govenor should rotate at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft, thus a 1:2 ratio on the pulleys. I know in my heart that I SHOULD be using a gear drive to turn the flyball governor on my engine, however the configuration of my Webster doesn't lend itself very well to doing that. It seems to me that in the dark recesses of my memory, I have seen "full scale" hit and miss engines on which the flyball governors were belt driven, but I could be making that up-----. I guess that if the belt broke, one could be faced with a "run away" engine. Thinking---thinking----


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## Blogwitch

Brian,

In the near future, I will be building a large hit 'n miss engine, and on that it shows a belt drive to the governor.

I don't think it matters much whether it is gear or belt driven, but I would suspect that the size of balls would come into it. There is a fair amount of centrifugal force required to get even a small ball governor to spread it's wings.

Mine will be 2" bore, but the two balls on the governor are only 5/8" diameter. For my drive, I will be using a steel spring drive of about 1/8" diameter, but the 'toy' engine lads use smaller and more flexible ones for driving off their small engines. Maybe Cedge can point you in the right direction for those in the US.

I would consider making a much smaller governor, say with 3/16" balls. But that is just a suggestion.


John


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## bearcar1

Brian, this is a most interesting thread to follow along on. I was looking at the CAD drawings of your engine and it got me to wondering, what if you were to relocate the gov. closer to the crankshaft and use a set of convolute gears to drive the flyball spindle or perhaps even incorporate crankshaft as the spindle itself (of course the balls would then be rotating in a vertical plane). Either way the linkage would require modification in order to hold the valve arm. These are just some daydream ideas that ran through my mind, but I thought I would toss them out anyway. I'll be watching this unfold.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks John. Any input is welcome, as I am breaking new ground here. (For me anyways).----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Bearcar---Showing my ignorance here, but what are "convolute" gears???


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## bearcar1

My Bad, Brian, I meant contrate gears. They are essentially a spur gear except the teeth are around the outside face of the gear and not the rim. There are also a similar kind that is canted at 45*, think bevel gear only the teeth are not the full width of the face. I do so hope this is not too confusing and I do apologize for what I have caused already. 

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Bearcar--I did a web search and found out what they look like. It seems that a lot of radio controlled cars use a gear like that on the rear axle, driven by a pinion on the driveshaft.


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## Brian Rupnow

John----I know it sounds trite but---Size isn't everything---The valve spring on my webster engine which holds the exhaust valve closed is a very fine spring, only about 0.020" wire diameter. The attached images are of a "Silver Angel" i.c. engine with a 3/4" bore and stroke, similar in size to the Webster. It has large balls on it---probably 5/8" or larger. I know that with the governor I just built, it takes very little "spin" to make the balls fly out---but then again, the spring on the governor stempost is a very lightweight spring as well. This engine has a very unique vertical camshaft---and the cam is the round silver disc at the top of the vertical shaft. From remarks I have read by people who built this engine, the governor works very well, and since it is part of the "cam shaft", it would be rotating at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft. One of the advantages that I see in driving the governor with a belt instead of a set of gears is that if the speed of the governors is to great or to little to be effective, it is a simple matter to change a pulley size. These neoprene o-rings will stretch to accomodate different pulley sizes, and have a relatively high coefficient of friction.


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## Blogwitch

As I said Brian, only a suggestion.

But as you commented on the stretch of the o-ring, surely that points to too large a force being required.

If the 3/4" bore of that silver angel is in a normal relationship to the outer diameter of the cylinder, then I suspect that those balls be less than 1/2", maybe towards 3/8", but never having seen the plans, I can only surmise. Also there is a major difference between having a direct drive from the camshaft, or even crank, rather than the flexidrive you envisiage.

But I am not here to argue the point, I was just trying to maybe help a little.

Bogs


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## Brian Rupnow

John---Your comments are always welcome. I don't take them as arguements. The o-ring elasticity is something I know about from stretching them over pulleys on various small engines. I haven't seen this stretch occur on any of the various gizmos that I have them on while operating, but I imagine that they do.---Its not really a visible thing. This entire attempt is going to fall into the category of "Try it and see what happens" engineering. Its entertaining, and as long as I'm not working with a pressure cooker boiler and don't get conked in the head with a runaway flyball, it should be fun. I know my Webster engine runs well. I know that this type of centrifugal governor works well from my first governor build a couple of years ago. Now its just a marriage of two seperate technologies that I know work to produce a third. One blessing----It doesn't cost much in terms of money, and if it doesn't work I may have a bit of egg on my face, but at least I won't have to deal with an angry customer.


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## Brian Rupnow

It begins---The first thing I have to do is change the flywheel weight on my Webster engine to be MUCH heavier. This is so that when the engine "misses" it will continue to rotate instead of quickly stopping as it currently does with its aluminum flywheel. I don't want to change the basic character of my engine. This is almost the ONLY change to the engine itself. I don't want to mess with the integrity of my current flywheel, because it has the one timing gear mounted in the side of the hub, and is pinned to the crankshaft with a pair of 3/32" diameter dowel pins. By doing things this way, I only have to move the outboard bearing support over a bit to make room for the new flywheel addition (This requires two new holes to be drilled in the baseplate.) The current flywheel is 3.75" diameter and the height of the crankshaft centerline is 2" above the baseplate. This will allow the outer diameter of the new flywheel "addition" to be 3 7/8" which will give me a rim 1/16" thick all around the original flywheel and still clear the base by 1/16". I will drill and tap the side of the old flywheel 1/4"-20 in 3 locations, and drill c'bored matching holes in the face of the new addition to bolt it to the existing flywheel. I REALLY would like to make this new flywheel addition from brass and polish it, but I'm afraid a peice of brass that big will cost a fortune. Steel would work as well, but it would be a pig to machine a c'bore that big in the side of it.--Of course it would be much, much cheaper, and I could paint it----





View attachment WEBSTER ENGINE REDESIGNED FOR GOVERNOR.PDF


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## cidrontmg

Another alternative to adding a heavy rim





The rim is made from a piece of bronze bearing material. It´s available in a *lot* of sizes, and is not very expensive in the amounts I´ve needed. It´s like a thick walled tubing.
In the above pic, the central part of the flywheel is ali, the rim is pressed on to the other, and Loctited (w. 270) to the other. You could also screw it through the rim.
I´ve done other flywheels the same way, exactly because it´s so cheap and easy. And I like the looks...


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## jpeter

Hey Brian,
If what you plan to build is like the picture in your earlier post it looks to me like you plan to have the link from the governor modulate the exhaust valve. Most hit'n miss engines I've studied or built have an escapement that somehow catches the exhaust valve and holds it fully open until such time as the engine needs to fire again. I looked carefully at the picture of the little angle and notice it works exactly the way I discribed. On the little angle a finger slips under the lifter to hold it up. When the gov slows down it rotates the finger out of the way, allowing the valve to seat. I'll bet it works well. I think modulating the valve will not get you the results you desire.


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## Brian Rupnow

jpeter---take a closer look at the picture---when the balls fly out and lift the lever at the yoke, the other end of the lever will tip down, moving a link which pushes down one end of a rocker mounted on the baseplate. The rocker pivots, and the other end lifts up and holds the exhaust valve off the seat.


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## Brian Rupnow

So---We're at the point of no return. I went uptown to one of my steel suppliers this morning and spent half the Rupnow fortune (actually $70) on a big old chunk of brass, 4" diameter x 2" thick. This will become the new heavier flywheel addition for the hit and miss Webster.


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## kjk

Wow - A pound and a half ought to keep the webster spinning a while - assuming my arithmetic is right. Brass sure is getting dear. :-(


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## mklotz

Better check your math. I get ~7.6 lbs.


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## Brian Rupnow

Look at post #25---As the drawing says, once this thing gets whittled to final size, we are looking at around 2 1/4 pounds.


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Look at post #25---As the drawing says, once this thing gets whittled to final size, we are looking at around 2 1/4 pounds.



With the price of brass, I'd figure out a way to whittle away the extra ~5 pounds in as big a single chunk as possible.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Right you are on that score. I have just faced one side, now I will mark out the chunk I need and try to bandsaw the rest away.


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## Brian Rupnow

The bandsaw kept trying to rip the chunk of brass out of my hands, so I walked it out to the big old power hacksaw that I built about 40 years ago. Its sitting out there in the garage now chewing away---Makes a Hell of a racket, but the wifes at work so thats okay.


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## kjk

I redid the math and get just over 3.5 kg using 8.5 g/cc. Looks like I failed to convert the length of the piece to cm when I did it the first time. Nice chunk of metal in any case. Hopefully several flywheels worth.


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## SAM in LA

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> The bandsaw kept trying to rip the chunk of brass out of my hands, so I walked it out to the big old power hacksaw that I built about 40 years ago. Its sitting out there in the garage now chewing away---Makes a Hell of a racket, but the wifes at work so thats okay.



Brian,

You are such a tease.

Showing us just one corner of your street rod.

How about letting us see more of it.

SAM


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, that went very fine!!! I even have a peice about 7/16" thick left over. The new brass flywheel fits snugly over the existing flywheel and makes an incredible weight difference. Tomorrow I will polish the brass to a mirror finish and put the Webster back together and see what difference it makes to its "coasting" ability.


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## Brian Rupnow

Here ya go Sam---This was taken last year on the "Great Canadian Hotrod Tour"--Somewhere down on the east coast of Canada---Cape Breton I think.


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## SAM in LA

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Here ya go Sam---This was taken last year on the "Great Canadian Hotrod Tour"--Somewhere down on the east coast of Canada---Cape Breton I think.



Brian,

Very nice. Very clean lines and yellow is what color I will paint my dream car someday.

SAM


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## Brian Rupnow

Now THIS is a flywheel!!!! It certainly weighs a heck of a lot more than the original did. I always have this morbid fear that once I have taken a well running engine apart to modify it, that it never may run again. I hope this time proves me wrong. Now I'm off to the garage to test fire this beast!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Hah---No worries! Runs like a champion. Good Lord, will it ever idle slowly now. And at about 1/4 throttle, if I shut off the ignition switch that new flywheel has enough momentum to turn the cranks shaft 5 to 7 times before all motion stops. If I reach in with my long screwdriver and hold the exhaust valve from closing, the engine will miss for 3 or 4 cycles, then if I let the exhaust valve close, it fires again and keeps on Running smoothly. This is very encouraging. Next thing required will be some more in depth design work to set up the flyball governor properly.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here is a short video of it running with the new flywheel. this is a new video---I spent an hour on the phone with Cannon and hopefully got the problems with my camera sorted out.


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## SAM in LA

Brian,

If anyone can convert this engine to hit-n-miss is you.

SAM


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## Brian Rupnow

Here we have the govenor in its final form with all the required linkages. There is more information on it, but any further posts will be over in my thread about redesigning the Webster engine as a hit and miss. Those miter gears do actually mesh--Its just that I don't have the gears yet, and there is insufficient information in the gear catalogue for me to model them correctly.


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## Brian Rupnow

And this is ultimately what it will look like in place on the Webster


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## cfellows

Brian,

I hope you don't mind a humbley offered suggestion. I've altered your drawing slightly so the governor would hold the valve fully open or be completely disengaged. My suggested change is in green.

Thx... Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Thanks for looking and for suggesting. I'm not real happy with this quite yet. On a Webster engine, the rocker arm is forced up to contact and lift the valve by way of a cam acting on the other end of it. The rocker has a pivot in the center. However, the rocker is moved in the other direction by a spring under the back end of the rocker arm. I am going to do a bit more design work, and possibly have a pin come up through the baseplate to contact the back side of the rocker directly below the valve stem to hold it open. There is one thing I am not really clear on. Any movement that the governors make is a gradual and progressive movement. Thus, it will gradually and progressively hold the exhaust valve open. Is this adequate, or does the action of the governor have to swing a "stop" into play more or less Suddenly" to completely hold the valve in the fully open position?----brian


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## cfellows

Hi Brian,

The suggested change would make your engine work like typical hit n miss engines. When the governor reaches the right speed, the lever would swing in under the valve stem (keeper) and hold the valve fully open. When the governor slows down, the lever would swing out, letting the exhaust valve drop.

Thx...
Chuck


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## cfellows

Another thought, how about mounting the flyball on the back of the engine such that it holds the rear part of the lever down to hold the exhaust valve open. Don't really have a design in mind, just brainstorming.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Thank you for your help. I had a creeping suspicion that I didn't have it quite right. Will redesign tomorrow as per your suggestion.----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay---Today, another kick at the can. I went and picked up my bevel gears yesterday, and surprise, surprise---The ones they got in were not the ones I ordered.--Thats okay, I can redesign to accomodate that. Now I believe Chuck and Mr Britnell, who have both told me that I don't want to hold the exhaust valve open gradually. I want to prop it open all at once. Therefore I have redesigned the linkages to slide a steel "slider block" under the business end of the rocker arm when the engine reaches the RPM at which I want it to start missing.


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## Brian Rupnow

Some encouraging experimentation---I measured and found that when my exhaust valve is at maximum lift, I have 0.419" clearance between the underside of the rocker arm and the aluminum base. I made up a peice of aluminum bar 0.417" thick. I ran the engine at mid range RPM and slowly advanced my peice of aluminum untill it was riding against the side of the rocker arm. It only took a very light push to get under the rocker arm, and my engine immediately stopped firing and began to coast. I pulled the peice of 0.417 aluminum away (it took very little effort) and the engine immediately began to fire again. This exactly replicates what will happen with the "red slider" in the drawing above.


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## cfellows

A little unorthodox, but highly creative... should work like a charm!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

And now you know how I spent MY afternoon!!! Its not finished yet, but you can see the detail of it laying underneath. That is the main frame for the 3 ball governor when I get it mounted on the Webster.


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## Brian Rupnow

And of course, I had to make a test block to mount my new bevel gears on to check and make sure the center distances in the catalogue were correct.---and they were bang on!!!


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## Cedge

Brian
I note you've added the spring. Suggest you consider a collar so you can adjust the tension in order to give you some control over the opening of the fly balls. Much easier to adjust than trimming the spring.

If the balls open too easily the cutoff could prevent the engine from even starting. ... but don't ask me how I know this...LOL. 


Today I got mine adjusted to where the engine hits once on about every 4 revolutions with an occasional double or triple hit. Sounds sweet after all the wasted effort I expended trying to adjust the old design.

Steve


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## Brian Rupnow

Yesterday was a time out from machining. My mother turned 90 years old yesterday, and my wife and I organized a surprise birthday party for her. We had about 70 relatives and friends show up at the manor where she lives now. The party was a great success. and a great time was had by all. The oldest person there was mom, the youngest my granddaughter, Makayla who was turning 3 years old the same day. Here is a picture of me escorting mom into the party room---check out the look on her face.


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## Brian Rupnow

And heres a picture of mom and I at her decorated chair, and the cake.


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## Brian Rupnow

Today it was back to more machining and some trial assembly on the governor frame.---I'm getting there!!!


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## SAM in LA

Brian,

What a nice looking package you made with your governor assembly.

SAM


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## ozzie46

Looking good Brian.


  Ron


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## Brian Rupnow

The bottom yoke on this flyball governor keeps evolving. Originally, I built it to move a pivot arm with a 3/16" brass pin in the slot. Then as I got a bit deeper into using it to work on my Webster engine, I decided it should have a pair of bearings in there instead to help take the load and run friction free. This afternoon I machined a peice of 1018 mild steel with a slot just large enough to accept 1/2" o.d. ball bearings, and press fitted the original lower yoke into it, along with some of my favourite 638 Loctite. Both peices were reamed to 3/16" diameter, then I inserted a shaft after applying the loctite to keep everything lined up true. I'll wait 24 hours for the Loctite to cure, then tap the shaft out and re-ream the assembly.


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## putputman

Brian, that picture of you & your mom is priceless. I bet the smile on her face is similar to the smile on your face when the new engine first pops over. I envy you being able to share life with your mom.


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## Brian Rupnow

Sometimes I outsmart myself!!!---In that last picture I posted, the diameter on the extreme right of the lower yoke is supposed to be a seperate peice, with a set screw in it. I knew that!!! Anyways, I came down to me shop this morning and thought--"Hey---I could combine those two peices and make it all in one." It wasn't untill after I had machined it and posted it that I realized it can't be all one peice. Oh well, nothing damaged except my pride. I'll stick it back in the lathe tomorrow and machine the offending lump off.


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## zeeprogrammer

Very much enjoying this.
I've always liked governors and this thread is very educational for me.

Thanks for sharing Mom.


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## Brian Rupnow

Zee---Thanks for looking and commenting--Putputman too. I have been thrashing away today at the fitment of all the parts, correcting the boo boo I made on the lower yoke, and making the lever with the ball bearings on it that rides in the yoke. Everything is going together very well, only a couple of levers left to make. No one in Barrie carries #5-40 set screws, so I have ordered a box of 100 that should be here in a couple of days. Meanwhile the assembly looks a bit like a porcupine with #5-40 socket head capscrews in all the holes that will eventually get the 1/8" long setscrews. My fingers are sticking to the keyboard ( residual Loctite) so I better go wash my hands before the keyboard and I become one.


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## ozzie46

Brian, I have a question. Why do you have 3 set screws for the top yoke? Is it to keep the unit balanced or does it take that many to keep it stuck to the vertical shaft? Would only 1 allow the yoke to slip on the shaft?

  Ron


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## Brian Rupnow

Ron---I used 3 setscrews because there were 3 places available. Not much of a reason, but thats it. On the first governor I made, I had to do a lot of messing around with governor springs to get it to work right---and on it the yoke was soldered in place, which meant I had to completely disassemble the governor to change a spring. This time around, I thought I would make the top yoke removeable, which will make changing springs much easier. Probably one set screw would have worked just as well.


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## Deanofid

Congratulations to Brian's mom! Many happy returns and blessings.


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## ozzie46

Thanks for the answer Brian. We are all allowed a little artistic license. ;D ;D ;D

  Ron


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## NickG

Brian,

Just found this and love the way that design has evolved. Can't wait to see it working! :bow:


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## Brian Rupnow

Well guys---Its all assembled, and I must say, it seems to work fine. The mechanism works freely. I have installed it on a temporary base to show the "action" of how it works. In the first picture, the govenor is in a 'balls in" condition, which would indicate no engine speed, or a very low speed. the arrow drawn on the temporary base shows the "mousehole" which the exhaust valve lockout" hides in when the governor is in this condition. The face of the aluminum main frame with the 'mousehole" in it will set about 0.030" from the side of the rocker arm on the Webster engine.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here we have it in a "balls out" condition. Centrifugal force has caused the balls to fly out into this condition as the engine reaches a high enough RPM to overcome the governor spring. This consequently tilts the top lever, which through the chain of other levers causes the "exhaust valve lockout" to advance out of the front of the main frame and slide under the rocker arm on the Webster when it is in the "exhaust valve open" condition. This prevents the engine from firing, as it can no longer build up compression, because the valve is held open. As the engine begins to slow down (The large flywheel is keeping the engine turning over, even though it is not firing). The governor turns more slowly, and returns to a "balls in" condition as the govenor spring expands to its "normal" length. This retracts the "exhaust valve lockout" into the "mousehole" in the main base. Now that the rocker arm is no longer held open, the exhaust valve can close and the engine will fire again, picking the RPM up and repeating the cycle. I am really looking foreward t getting my #5-40 set screws so that I can do a test run of the governor, using my variable speed drill. I will post a video.


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## gbritnell

Brian,
A lot of ingenuity there. I really like the concept and it will look neat out in the open when the engine is running. On a hit and miss engine the governor weights are spring loaded to return them to the closed position much like your governor has. There is also another spring on the locking arm that is adjustable to control the speed of the engine. You could put a small pin in your locking block and a block on the side of your governor frame with a spring spanning between the two. Attach the frame end of the spring to a screw through the block and you'll be able to adjust the speed of the engine while it's running. I'm attaching a picture of my Little Brother engine. You can see the lock arm with the knurled knob. Under this is a spring which the tension can be adjusted by turning the knurled knob. 
George


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## Brian Rupnow

George--I really appreciate you having a look at my project and offering some constructive advice. I'm not 100% sure that I understand what the second spring you refer to does. In my design, the governor spring and levers will also serve to retract the "exhaust valve lockout" device when the engine slows down. I see my single governor spring as having two functions. #1 it will determine at what speed the balls can go into a "balls out" configuration, and #2 it will retract the "exhaust valve lockout" pin when the engine slows down.


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## gbritnell

You're correct Brian except that the engine will only run at the speed governed by the operation of the governor. If you wanted to speed up the engine you would have to put more preload against the governor weights thus having to spin the governor faster to overcome the extra load. On a full sized governor such as on a traction engine some of the governors had what they called a sawyer's lever. This was a lever that was operated by a cord from the work platform. When the engine would bog down while cutting a log on a sawmill the cord could be pulled and this would overcome the action of the governor to give the engine more steam. This is the reverse of what I'm talking about but it illustrates that a steam engine running with a governor will only operate within the load characteristics of the governor. A hit and miss engine will do the same thing, run at whatever the preload (spring pressure) is against the centrifugal force of the flyweights. To increase the speed of the engine you have to put more spring load against the governor. 
George


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks George---I kind of thought that was what you meant. One of the reasons that I went to ball bearings on the main fork/lever was that I was thinking ahead to a secondary spring somewhere in the system to either add its force to or subtract some force away from the governor spring, to fine tune the engine RPM. I thought that if I do that, it may transfer load back through the fork/lever and I didn't want friction to become a consideration with just dowel pins riding in the groove in the lower yoke. I haven't actually got that far in my design yet---I'm kind of taking a "wait and see if I need it" approach. One of the nifty thing about creating prototypes for myself----It doesn't have to be a completely finished deal right out of the box like work I do for customers. ;D ;D ;D


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## NickG

Ah, I understand that now George.

Looking excellent by the way Brian, It will be interesting to see your running experiments. How strong is that spring and will it be run 1:1 speed? Suppose you've already got a bit of reduction, apologies if I've missed it, what are the bevel gears 1:3 or something? The reason I ask is, the weight of those 3 balls and the spring +gearing, I think will cause quite a fair bit of drag and it might not 'miss' very much - i.e. it when it does miss, it will slow down quickly despite the heavier flywheel and hit again. I could be wrong but I guess there is going to be some tweaking of the spring pressure required, so George's idea of an adjustable tension could be a good one.


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## Brian Rupnow

Nick---There is a 1:2 ratio on the bevel gear. The stempost of the governor will turn at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft, IF I use a 1:1 ratio on the drive pulleys. The only reference I have is the Silver Angel I.C. engine, on which the governor stempost IS the camshaft, so turns at exactly 1/2 the crankshaft speed. I know there may be a lot of screwing about with the governor spring. That is why I attached the top yoke with set screws instead of silver soldering it in place. The way it is now, I can very quickly pull the top yoke off if I have to change springs.


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## NickG

Good stuff Brian, thanks for the info, it's great to see a novel addition to this engine.

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

Dang!!! Still no setscrews. I sure would like to try this thing out.


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## gbritnell

Brian,
For set screws you could just shorten up your socket head screws so that they tighten up just before the head touches. 
George


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## Brian Rupnow

So chaps, here it is!!! The video I promised earlier, driving the governor with my variable speed drill. It has quieted down a lot after 10 minutes of continuous running. The action of the governors and lever mechanism works exactly like I had anticipated. I'm not certain that turning the Webster engine into a Hit and Miss will be succesfull, but the governor itself is indeed a success.----Brian


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## ozzie46

Brian, Congrats on the success of the governor. Thm: Thm: I have no doubt you will be successful on the engine also.

 Ron


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## jpeter

Hey, way back on the 16th I bought up the notion that modulating the exhaust valve wasn't gonna get it done. All I got was slammed. Now the same idea is fronted by some Johnny-come-lately and he's deemed brilliant. What's up with that? Give me some credit too. I should have patented the idea.


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## NickG

Good point JPeter! 

I don't think you were slammed, I just don't think what you said was fully taken in until somebody else mentioned it and explained it a bit more. I think I skipped over your post at the time without having a think about what you were saying - the valve opening / closing needs to be digital.

I agree what's happened is exactly  what you suggested though! 

Credit where credit's due, good idea but don't get worked up about it, think it got missed in the excitement!

Nick


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## jpeter

Thanks.
I like the current plan. It's gonna have a lot of "monkey motion" which I find pretty pleasing in a hit'n miss. One addition you might consider adding though is making the slot in the block kinda large so the finger fits with some slop. Slop would allow the engine to coast for a while before the governor kicks it back in. The amount of slop could be controlled by a set screw in one of the two sides of the sliding block (to adjust the width of the slot). I've got a zero-six design built that'll coast 16 revolutions for every fire. I like em when they coast a lot.


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## Brian Rupnow

Jpeter---To be honest, I didn't know what you meant by "modulating" the exhaust valve. There was no intent to slam you. I did have some concerns that gradually opening the exhaust valve would create issues, that was why I mentioned it. As far as clearance on the sliding finger, It has about .003" clearance now. Since I am truly breaking new ground here (for me anyways), its easier to take a bit more metal off than to put it back on. I'll try it this way first and see what happens. I don't as a rule slam people. I've been slammed enough myself that I know it doesn't feel very good. (Boo Hoo). Sometimes I don't respond to a post if I really don't know what was being said, thats all.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

So, here we are, all ready to rock and roll, and wouldn't you know it----I don't have an o-ring the right length, and the place where I buy them isn't open untill Monday!!!! If I manually lift the balls (Nevermind ya filthy bugger), the engine does miss. Now I wait untill Monday to see if it works.


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## Brian Rupnow

IT WORKS!!!! IT WORKS!!!! I just had the brainwave of holding a third small pulley on a shaft in place as a belt tensioner while the engine was running. As soon as the governor began to rotate, the entire "hit and miss" cycle happened just as I had hoped it would. Its going in and out of hit and miss mode quite rapidly, which indicates that I need a stronger spring on the stempost, but it is definitly operating as a hit and miss engine!!! YIPEEEE!!! I will get a correct size o-ring and a slightly stronger spring on Monday, and get a video up.---Brian


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## ozzie46

Very good Brian, I knew you could do it. :big: :big: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


  Anxiously awaiting video.

 Ron


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## Brian Rupnow

Now I have to put my thinking cap on and think on this for a while. Wife and I just sat on the back deck, under beautifull sunshine, 85 degrees F and drank a bottle of Australian wine, Yellowtail Shiraz---MMMMmmmmmm. Oh yes---I was thinking---the engine starts well, revs up to midrange speed, the governor balls fly out at what I would deem an "appropriate time" and then the engine goes into "miss" mode. The "miss" mode is very brief, perhaps one or two full engine revolutions, then the engine slows enough for the balls to pull in and start the engine firing again. This rapid cycle between firing and missing is what I want to correct. This, if I remember my engineering lessons from the distant past, is called "Hysteresis". I want the governor to engage exactly as it does now, in the RPM range it does now. However, I want more of a time lag between the engagement of the "exhaust valve lockout" and the disengagement of it. (This will give more "missing" cycles between when it starts to miss and stops missing ). I don't think a stronger governor spring would give this effect. All it would do is increase the point at which the RPM range got high enough to force the balls into the "full out" position ----and it would also shorten the time span of the 'miss" cycle proportionally, because the stronger spring would retract the balls sooner. It seems to me that perhaps the secret lies in the way the bottom lever engages with the slot in the top of the "exhaust valve lockout". Right now, it engages pretty well 1:1---That is to say, for every increment of movement of the lever, there is an equal increment of movement in the "exhaust valve lockout" (the red thing in the cad model). Perhaps if I were to widen the slot in the "exhaust valve lockout", on the side away from the rocker arm, then the exhaust valve lockout" would still engage at the same time, but there would be more of a delay before it disengaged, because the lever would have to move though a "dead space" before it came in contact with the other end of the slot in the "exhaust valve lockout" and caused it to completely withdraw from under the engines rocker arm. If you can understand this, and agree or disagree, let me know please.----Brian


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## kcmillin

I concur Brian. 

I believe your solution will work as you described it.

Well Done. 

So when we gonna see it hitin' and missin'?

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

Since I had a heavier spring here, (.023 dia. wire as opposed to .019 wire) I went ahead and tried the heavier spring approach. It didn't work. In fact, with the current pulley set up, the balls didn't create enough centrigugal force to overcome the springs strength to make the balls fly out far enough to even begin the "hit and miss" cycle. I had to try. In the wonderfull world of "Try it and see if it works" engineering, you have to try every approach available.


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## cidrontmg

Yes Brian, a wider slot in the "exhaust valve lockout" would introduce *some* (needed) hysteresis in the system. Another area to add hysteresis would be introducing additional friction between the exhaust valve lever and the block that keeps it from closing. Friction enough that the balls would need to do some work also when they´re going down, pulling the block back. If the surfaces on both the block and the downside of the lever are very smooth (and I believe they are - you would have made sure they are polished ;D ), they might actually benefit from some deep scratches and punch marks. It´s not often that an engine would benefit from additional friction - but this is the exception to the rule.
Lovely governor, BTW. And works really fine.


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## Brian Rupnow

Hmmm-here's food for thought---Perhaps I need a lighter spring. The balls would fly out and engage sooner, but they wouldn't be so quick to retract the "exhaust valve lockout" either---


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## SAM in LA

Brian,

Nice governor you have built.

It sounds like you have come up with several ways to induce some hysteresis into the system.

I'm looking forward to the video.

SAM


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## Cedge

Brian....
We're both slogging through the same adjustment, it seems. My little engine is also in "rapid cycle" mode but is definitely doing the hit and miss thing. 

After playing with various settings, I've come to the conclusion that I need to "soften" the spring a bit to allow the balls to have more effect (ie. stay expanded longer) while at full expansion. It appears I'll also have to clearance the expansion joints to give more room for adjustment to the spring retainer. Small cramped work space is making it an interesting bit of fitting.

Not sure if there is a direct correlation with your design since mine is mounted directly on the crank but thought I'd share the direction I'm headed.

Steve


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## Captain Jerry

Brian

You have designed and built a very attractive mechanism, compact and functional as well.

I hesitate to mention this because I brought it up before with your first governor but you might consider adding a dashpot. This would be a more workmanlike means of moderating the reaction of the linkage than using scratches or punchmarks. This might be more difficult on this version than on the previous one because this version is much more compact and there is less room to add another component in the linkage.

Another thought is some sort of "over center" toggle that would snap the lockout in and would snap it out only when the opposite force on the linkage overcomes the toggle spring. I'm thinking a very light hairspring.

Another approach might be to reduce the governor speed relative to the engine. Bigger pulley. If you look at examples of vintage steam engines, I think you see the flyballs stabilize at an angle of less than a 45 deg. The higher the balls are at the point of engaging the exhaust lockout, the more sensitive they are to speed fluctuations.

A third, and less attractive approach would be a larger flywheel.  I think you did a good job of adding to the original flywheel and have probably maxed out in the present configuration but that is one means of maintaining RPMs through several "miss" cycles.

I hope you don't mind the comments from the back row, but that's why they call this a forum. 

Jerry


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## cfellows

Brian, are you running the carburetor wide open? You want the engine to "hit" as hard as it can, one time, to run the speed as much as possible. If you remember, the original hit n miss engines had no throttle, they ran wide open all the time. With proper hit n miss operation, the engine should "hit" once, then coast through 4 or more cycles.  Also, the governor spring, if made weaker, will cause the engine to slow down more before it "hit's".


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## NickG

Brian,

As soon as you mentioned it hits again too soon I immediately thought , needs a weaker spring. The balls then need less centrifugal force to lift and engage the lockout. As Chuck says, you might as well have the butterfly wide open - it's going to hit, with a weaker spring it will hit at a lower speed, but that's what you want, more coasting. Another way may be to make the pully on the governor smaller, but then you're playing with the gearing too and making it harder to turn so it will miss sooner but it will slow down more. I reckon it'll be a trade off between the drive ratio and spring stiffness - they are the easiest parameters to play tunes with. Have you tried it with no spring? That will give you the 2 marks in the sand as it were and you'll know where to aim for in between.

Just my 2 p worth.

Looking superb by the way and can't wait to see in action.

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks guys, for all your excellent suggestions. The dashpot is a good idea. Before I start to add parts, I want to play more with the parts I have. It seems to me that to get the maximum number of revolutions from a power hit, I want to reduce the mass of the governor somewhat, making it easier to spin. I currently have a set of 5/8" diameter balls on it. I have a set of 1/2" balls left over from my governor build two years ago, and this morning I will try them. I will also try a weaker spring. in theory these two changes should let the engine get more revolutions per "power hit" and a weaker spring with smaller balls should delay the collapse of the governor and the consequent rapid decay of my miss cycle.


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## Brian Rupnow

I just tried it with the 1/2" diameter balls, and I see some improvement. I will be able to judge things much better come Monday, when I can get an o-ring the correct length and have access to some different and lighter springs.


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## ariz

Brian, what an interesting thread you started here, and what a brain you have to think and make things like that :bow:

as someone has told, only you could be able to transform a webster in an hit & miss engine

why you put this thread here? I seldom enter in the 'break room' because my english isn't so good to let me to read about stories and not engines, so I saw it only today...
I would have expected to see this conversion in the 'work in progress' section

oh, now I understand... for you this was a kind of diversion, not a real project, as it was for me ;D
many congrats, can't wait to see the video tomorrow


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## jpeter

Now you ought to replace that commercial carburetor with a simple homebuilt spraybar carb. It'd look more homebuilt and run as well too cuz now it doesn't need to deal with multiple rpm settings.


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## Brian Rupnow

This morning I rushed across town and bought a pair of o-ring drive belts the correct length, (one is a spare) and a weaker compression spring for the governor stempost. I had to fire it up as soon as I got home. There is considerable improvement in the hit and miss action, but its not quite where I want it to be yet. I know you fellows are anxiously awaiting a video, so here you go. This is not final, but it does very well to show the Webster engine running in "hit and miss" mode.----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, I think this is about as good as its going to get. The project is a success. I have turned a 4 stroke Webster I.C. into a hit and miss engine. The reality of the situation is that the governor is way too large in relationship to the bore of the engine. I kind of knew that when I set out to do this, but its been a fun project. On a "to scale" hit and miss engine with the governors set into the flywheels, the governors are much more sensitive to engine RPM than what I have here. Add to this the fact that I am limited in terms of how large a flywheel I can mount to this existing engine. The thing I like is that I can run the engine in normal non hit and miss form by simply removing the o-ring drive belt. I have to do a bit of tidy up now, and find a new location for the gas tank, but other than that I will call this project finished. Thanks to all who followed along and expressed interest.----Brian


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## zeeprogrammer

That is fantastic Brian.
This has been very enjoyable. It's given me some ideas I hope to apply soon.


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## Brian Rupnow

Zee---Thanks for your kind words. If I can help in any way with your next project, let me know.----I love your train!!!!


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## ozzie46

I was sure I had posted on this earlier today, but didn't see it here. scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif So I went looking. Yep there it was in the "pictures and videos" section. Thought I was going batty there for a while. Sure had me confused for a little bit.

  Nice project Brian and well executed.  Thm: Thm: Thm:

  Ron


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