# Said I would never do it.



## stevehuckss396 (Dec 23, 2022)

I joined facebook. My wife got tired of me borrowing her phone to look for stuff on marketplace and made me join if I wanted to get on there. I have no friends so I dont have to listen to my family argue with each other. I did join a couple groups so I can mingle with prople who restore mini bikes and go-karts. Also a couple model engine groups but they are mostly for collectors not builders. It's the beginning of the end!


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## Poppy Ott (Dec 23, 2022)




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## michael-au (Dec 23, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> I joined facebook. My wife got tired of me borrowing her phone to look for stuff on marketplace and made me join if I wanted to get on there. I have no friends so I dont have to listen to my family argue with each other. I did join a couple groups so I can mingle with prople who restore mini bikes and go-karts. Also a couple model engine groups but they are mostly for collectors not builders. It's the beginning of the end!



Marketplace is about the only thing Facebook is good for


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## kjk (Dec 23, 2022)

Facebook is a black hole. Oddly though, you don't have to join to have your personal data sucked into their vortex because if you were in the address book of anyone who is a facebook member - they already have you.   There is a page facebook offers to allow people to expunge their phone numbers and email addresses from their database. I tried it with all my phone numbers and email addresses and all of them were there - I removed them. The utility also (so facebook says) prevents that data from ever being acquired again.  Try it for yourselves: Facebook


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## GreenTwin (Dec 23, 2022)

I joined FB about 10 years ago, and was on it for two days.
I quickly realized what a faustian deal that was and got off of it.
I had links popping up for people I had not seen or talked to in 40 years, and links/relationships I did not even realize existed.
Advertisements popping up for things that I needed to purchase that I had not mentioned to anyone.
It is the most insideous data mining operation I have ever seen.
They know more about you and what you do than you do, and that is no exaggeration.

My wife was on it, but got off last year.

We don't want to be owned by the power brokers of silicon valley, and your data will be owned by them, and used by them.
Unfortunately this often extends to every family member of every age, wifes, sons, daughters, grandkids, friends, etc.
Every post, every word, every purchase, everything you do and say will become their property, and they control the algorithm.

Some folks love FB; and if you love it, then more power to you, but it is not for me, and I will never use it or anything like it.
Privacy must come first.

Social media has become the very essence of what George Orwell warned us about so many years ago.

.


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## GreenTwin (Dec 24, 2022)

This is a perfect example of why you don't want your and your family's data in "the matrix".









						Attorney says facial recognition got her kicked out of a Rockettes show
					

“They knew my name before I told them.”




					www.theverge.com


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## ajoeiam (Dec 24, 2022)

GreenTwin said:


> I joined FB about 10 years ago, and was on it for two days.
> I quickly realized what a faustian deal that was and got off of it.
> I had links popping up for people I had not seen or talked to in 40 years, and links/relationships I did not even realize existed.
> Advertisements popping up for things that I needed to purchase that I had not mentioned to anyone.
> ...


I read '1984' and a 'Brave New World' (aldous huxley) back in high school. 
Took until some 20 years ago that I first read 'Animal Farm'. 

Fascinating books and scarily prescient. 

Social media is about making a small group of ????? very rich - - - - it started as a way of staying in touch. 
It morphed from that likely inside of months. 

Frustrating for me is that people seem to think that the only place to sell stuff is on crackbook. 

Oh well - - - - even the banks are requiring allowing 3rd party cookies so its getting very difficult 
to not be sucked into crackbook's black hole!

To other things!!!!!!!!!!!

To one and all - - - a right merry Christmas and a blessed New Year!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Leonardo (Dec 24, 2022)

Unfortunately this is the world in which we are living nowadays.
Being a System Analyst I have fighting against all these from years but having poor success or no success at all.
If you use FB, WhatsApp any social media platform or even if you have an Android cell phone you are screwed.
More than a hundred pieces of information are taken from every user account, not only your name and phone number but your likes, the way you use the platforms, what are you looking for, the web sites you visit, how much time you spent in every page, how many clicks you do, and so on...
If you have your location active in your phone they do know where you are and where you were and all your movements.
If you have a computer connected to Internet, an email address, a bank account, etc. you are screwed!
It won't be long before a child is born, they put a chip up his ass and that's it! You are screwed forever. 

Anyway, have a happy Holidays and a great and prosperous new year!


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 24, 2022)

What exactly do "they" do with my information? What does someone have to gain by knowing that I ate at art &jakes sports bar last night?


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## Leonardo (Dec 24, 2022)

Who knows! They just sell the info to everyone interested in the data and also share the info between their own companies.


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 24, 2022)

Leonardo said:


> Who knows! They just sell the info to everyone interested in the data and also share the info between their own companies.


Ok and then what? Other than getting ads for chicken wings and sports betting aps that I completely ignore what else happens? I'm genuinely interested. You have sparked my curiosity.


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## Zeb (Dec 24, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Ok and then what? Other than getting ads for chicken wings and sports betting aps that I completely ignore what else happens? I'm genuinely interested. You have sparked my curiosity.


This video is pretty interesting. He's a sharp guy with an engineering background.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 25, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> What exactly do "they" do with my information? What does someone have to gain by knowing that I ate at art &jakes sports bar last night?


It's always about $$$$$ (and power).  They sell your names and all the info about you that they mine to advertisers.  Goggle, microsux, fakecrook also work for and sell information to the intelligence agencies of any country who will buy it.  A few years back, one could take the battery out of ones phone or the chip--NOT ANYMORE!  What's that about do you thimpfk?  You can, however, out wit the sh*t sukkers by wrapping hyour phone in metal foil--make sure there is no leak where the folds come together.

THe fact that on your phone, computer and your thing in the living room that hears everything you say, shows what hyou have been lookin g at what ever place you shop on line--that is proof they are mining hyour keystrokes and selling them to the advertisers that are interested.  That thing in the living room, is listening to what hyou are saying--soon hyou will be getting adverts for things you are talkilng about.  My son was speaking Chinese to a friend, soon, he recieved adverts in CHINESE!  The same with Spanish--he started recieving ads in Spansih.  These shitbags are REALLY slick and sik.  My son also speaks some other languages but never has a chance to talk with some one over the phone with those languages, else he would be recieving ads in THOSE languagtes.  These monsters are really sik and really need to be brought down.


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## aarggh (Dec 25, 2022)

They are insidious!


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## GreenTwin (Dec 25, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Ok and then what? Other than getting ads for chicken wings and sports betting aps that I completely ignore what else happens? I'm genuinely interested. You have sparked my curiosity.


It becomes guilt by association.
Someone who ate behind you in the restaurant is on some's "list", and so just being in proximity and getting captured on some camera makes you guilty of something, and so you can be denied service, debanked, whatevery they want to do; you have no recourse at all; they are judge, jury, and executioner; you no longer have rights.
Just eating at a politically incorrect place is all it takes.

Every social media post you ever make will be checked by "the machine" in real time to see if it adheres to "the narrative", and then they will deterimine what you can do and where you can go.

Its very indidious and very real.
This is just the beginning, and the tip of the iceberg.


Coming soon to a theater near YOU !!!









						Facial Recognition Nightmare: Girl Scout's Mom Booted from Radio City Music Hall Due to Where She Works
					

A lawyer that is the mother of a Girl Scout was recently targeted by facial recognition tech and removed from an event at Radio City Music Hall due to Madison Square Garden Entertainment's ongoing legal issues with her law firm — even though she personally has nothing to do with the litigation...




					www.breitbart.com


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## aarggh (Dec 25, 2022)

Wait till they eventually do away with cash to make things "easier and more convenient" for the masses!


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## Jasonb (Dec 25, 2022)

I think it's OK in moderation. I only belong to a couple of groups that are Model Engineering and small power related and also Wayne Grenning's full size FB pages. If they are closed groups the rubbish is kept out and discussion is not unlike on a forum.

I have my e-mail set up with a "social" section so any FB related stuff goes there and does not clutter my main inbox and I have notifications for that section turned off, Similar with a "promotions" section to separate that sort of "junk" but at least you will get adverts related to things you may actually want as they get to know your browsing and buying habbits. They will also suggest related FB groups which can often be of interest too.


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## aarggh (Dec 25, 2022)

Data mining and people as products is just absolutely everywhere now, even clothing chains use off the shelf telemetry products that scan peoples mobiles as they walk by and retrieve all the data they can, and then map them in databases so they can target advertising on screens nearby.

It's pretty scary stuff when you realise just how pervasive things are now!


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 25, 2022)

So what I'm reading it's basically all about selling people things. Try to learn people's habits to predict what they need and try to sell them a product. Is that it?

How does a retailer scan my phone while I'm in there store?


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## L98fiero (Dec 25, 2022)

Leonardo said:


> Unfortunately this is the world in which we are living nowadays.
> Being a System Analyst I have fighting against all these from years but having poor success or no success at all.
> If you use FB, WhatsApp any social media platform or even if you have an Android cell phone you are screwed.
> More than a hundred pieces of information are taken from every user account, not only your name and phone number but your likes, the way you use the platforms, what are you looking for, the web sites you visit, how much time you spent in every page, how many clicks you do, and so on...
> ...


Some people were concerned about the government giving you a 'chip' when you got a COVID shot, the insanity of that idea is that 99% of the population willingly carries one with them every day in their cell phone, the West's 'social credit system' is already well developed and ubiquitous, 'they' being the government _and_ corporations, know more about you than you do, yourself.


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## Rocket Man (Dec 25, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> I joined facebook. My wife got tired of me borrowing her phone to look for stuff on marketplace and made me join if I wanted to get on there. I have no friends so I dont have to listen to my family argue with each other. I did join a couple groups so I can mingle with prople who restore mini bikes and go-karts. Also a couple model engine groups but they are mostly for collectors not builders. It's the beginning of the end!



I have an old 1960s mini bike that I road when I was in grade school & high school.  My sons road it too.  Now its for sale.


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## Zeb (Dec 25, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> So what I'm reading it's basically all about selling people things. Try to learn people's habits to predict what they need and try to sell them a product. Is that it?


The data is being used for law enforcement and by foreign governments. Even a fish and game agency can de-anonymize everyone's personal triangulation data at a certain time and place as in this case. The woods are littered with cellular trail cams and even a burnpile can be picked up by satellite for anyone to see. Very handy tool by the way if you spend time in the woods during fire season.

Some companies "legally" volunteer the data to alphabet agencies. It's going to either be a recent graduate technocrat from India or Musk who volunteers it. All depends on who owns your data.

Other countries are getting a slice of the pie as well. In ten years, most US soldiers' childhood tiktok data will be on overseas servers. Watching how data is being used in current conflicts is pretty eye opening.

If you're a pilot flying standard category, please don't forget to turn off ADSB before performing aerobatics.  There's a lot of glitching, but sometimes it's a little obvious and your registration, model type, and LLC will be permanently embedded with the data. It just never ends!

Merry Christmas everyone. I gonna take a break.


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## Tim Hooper (Dec 25, 2022)

Security worries aside.......

I'm a happy FB user, and have been for many years now.

I find it very useful, not only to keep in touch with family and mates, but I'm in quite a few music, machining and model aircraft groups.

Yup, there's lots of rubbish and spurious advertising on there, it's true, but I'm also in fairly immediate contact with like-minded idiots around the globe.

Tim


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## LesAndrews (Dec 25, 2022)

Zeb said:


> If you're a pilot flying standard category, please don't forget to turn off ADSB before performing aerobatics.  There's a lot of glitching, but sometimes it's a little obvious and your registration, model type, and LLC will be permanently embedded with the data. It just never ends!
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone. I gonna take a break.


Even If you buy and use a drone all the telemetry is being storewd so the aviation authorities can track what you did and were you flew it.

Big Brother is real and they are watching you very closely.

Stand by for a nock on the front door to all participants to this thread!!


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## GreenTwin (Dec 25, 2022)

There was a good cartoon that I found and lost a while ago, that showed a herd of sheep talking, and one of the sheep says  "I tell ya, those guys are up to something", referring to the pack of wolves standing in the background.
The other sheep say "Poor old crazy Bill; he has been watching too many conspiracy movies again......we all know those guys (the wolves) act in our best interest".


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## davidyat (Dec 26, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> What exactly do "they" do with my information? What does someone have to gain by knowing that I ate at art &jakes sports bar last night?


*Steve, we are dinosaurs. We grew up with common sense, the ability to think and to communicate face to face with people. The young come out of the womb with a smart phone in their hands. This is their world. They don't learn how to think or learn common sense. Everything they learn comes off the phone screen. It's easy to BS them with false information. You tell me to my face about what you ate at Art & Jakes Sports Bar (if you want to). I have a quote, "Little amuses the innocent". My relatives know, "Don't get Uncle Dave on Facebook, he'll just show you what he did in the bathroom this morning"!!! AND I WOULD.*


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## Richard Hed (Dec 26, 2022)

davidyat said:


> *Steve, we are dinosaurs. We grew up with common sense, the ability to think and to communicate face to face with people. The young come out of the womb with a smart phone in their hands. This is their world. They don't learn how to think or learn common sense. Everything they learn comes off the phone screen. It's easy to BS them with false information. You tell me to my face about what you ate at Art & Jakes Sports Bar (if you want to). I have a quote, "Little amuses the innocent". My relatives know, "Don't get Uncle Dave on Facebook, he'll just show you what he did in the bathroom this morning"!!! AND I WOULD.*


Yess, yess, I took a (censored) in the toilet 5 minutes ago.  It was warm and juicy and dark brown.  There's more too, but I'm afraid you might get too excited reading about such fun activities.


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## LesAndrews (Dec 26, 2022)

You got it they aren't taught how to think just What to think.


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## Zeb (Dec 26, 2022)

Someone lock this down before we facebook this thread. 


LesAndrews said:


> Big Brother is real and they are watching you very closely.


When it comes to my old $100 Chinese drone. I am very glad big bro is watching. It's what we actually pay them to do in the US.


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## GreenTwin (Dec 26, 2022)

I know on the face of it, it seems like no big deal.
Someone joined facebook.....so what ?
What is the big deal?

There are some rather concerning trends these days though, and much of the concern revolves around the concentration of power in the hands of a few big tech companies, and what that will mean for future generations in this country.

I wish it were just a simple thing of no consequence.
I guess I know too much.

Somehow I feel like Big Tech will "set people free", but I don't think it is the "freedom" most folks have in mind.

It is never a good thing when all power gets concentrated into the hands of a few folks.
It does not end well for anyone, but least of all it does not end well for the sheep.
Absolute power always corrupts absolutely.

Edit:
Its just a model engine forum, so I will shut up now and get back to model building.

What model did you build today?
Post it here so us non-FB folks can see it.

.


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## Zeb (Dec 27, 2022)

GreenTwin said:


> What model did you build today?
> Post it here so I can see it.


I'm pretty excited today. Got me copy of Model Locomotive Boilermaking from Blighty several weeks earlier than expected. I noticed they're selling like hotcakes after Blondihacks reviewed it.


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## Robsmith (Dec 27, 2022)

michael-au said:


> Marketplace is about the only thing Facebook is good for


Man there's some weirdos on there as well


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## terryd (Dec 27, 2022)

Robsmith said:


> Man there's some weirdos on there as well


As there are on all forums as well.  But conspiracy theories make a change from reading comics


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## ddmckee54 (Dec 28, 2022)

A couple of years ago I was in the market for a Cub Cadet, the International Harvester version - not the cheap imitation.  I found one for a reasonable price less than an hour away from me on FB Marketplace.  Up to this time I had avoided FB like the plague.  So I joined up in order to be able to contact the seller to see if I could come take a look at it.   Two days later when I tried to log in to FB to see if the seller had responded, I was unable to log in and informed that I was banned for "improper use of FB Marketplace."

That was my first and last experience with FB! 

Don


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## GreenTwin (Dec 28, 2022)

As with any online selling app, one must be very careful, and be sure there are sufficient safeguards in place for your protection.









						Inside dangerous Facebook Marketplace meetups that have left 13 dead
					

FACEBOOK Marketplace is allegedly filled with scammers who use the platform to commit armed robberies and even murder, leaving at least 13 people dead since the start of the pandemic. Thousands of …




					www.the-sun.com


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## Steamchick (Dec 28, 2022)

This is the only chat site I use... Not having spotted any weirdos, maybe I am the weirdo?
K2


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## minh-thanh (Dec 28, 2022)

With me - especially with the internet, Google, Edge, FB, youtube.... All things have two sides : Good and Bad.
  Nothing is perfect !
 Use it and find the best way to approach it - there are hundreds of tutorials on the necessary settings with FB
   With FB , I have a few friends who have helped me a lot in projects about engines , *especially diesel engines* . And when I post some pictures on my personal page or in a group sometimes there are some pretty good comments


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## Richard Hed (Dec 29, 2022)

terryd said:


> As there are on all forums as well.  But conspiracy theories make a change from reading comics


Just be careful -- the reptars and the greys are fighting for control of all governments on erf.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 29, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> This is the only chat site I use... Not having spotted any weirdos, maybe I am the weirdo?
> K2


What?  Whaduhyuh mean no weerdos?  Who am I?


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## Steamchick (Dec 29, 2022)

Keep calm Richard, 
Einstein explained relativity.... "If you are on the same hill-top at the same time moving at the same speed you all look the same". It is only when you are on the subway platform and everyone is moving fast past you in the opposite direction you realise you are "relatively" the odd one. Maybe they are all the wierdos? - And we are the ones who are "sane" (which is a relative term based on abstract ideas anyway!).

Zeb: re: your new book. Does it explain calculations for determining wall thicknesses of flue tubes, or other tubes with the copper "in compression"? - I think this is probably a "bible" for making boilers (Coppersmithing), but it may omit that particular part of boiler design (as do most books) concerning the design of "tubes in compression", particularly if copper.
I have books and texts by:
K.N. Harris, Alec Weiss, Kozo Hiraoka, Martin Evans, Tubal Cain, Prof. Andrew Jamieson (who quotes work & formula derived by Sir William Fairburn); John Goodman, et al.
Yet I have never seen anyone consider that Copper tubes in compression suffer from the compressive strength being as low as 45MPa but only consideration of the Ultimate Tensile Strength, as 210 MPa. (30500 psi.). I.E. the tubes in Compression, if designed using hoop stress calculations using the Tensile strength of annealed copper, will be incorrect for the required safety factors for the boiler. I am still seeking a text that even discusses the matter. I can only assume that "in service" flue tubes etc. at "~20% of their "correct" design strength" are adequate for the 1.5 x NWP Hydraulic test. And copper boilers quickly become "stronger" than their annealed state when heated and stressed, then cooled, repeatedly.
Enjoy your boilermaking - and use a "proven and certified" design, and known (certified?) standard of materials.
K2


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## Rocket Man (Dec 29, 2022)

What the H is going on???  I check email it sends me here.  I barely have time to read, Reptiles are taking control of our government, the page goes to a different location.   Now I am here?   I don't care.   I don't do politics.   I hardly ever turn my TV on nothing there but politics and evil.


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## Zeb (Dec 29, 2022)

Come to thinkpf of it, I think my headset full of cameras is getting bricked January 1st unless I get a facetube account. I might end up getting one for it, but I can see why it's a personal choice. They really want to know how messy my office is.

Now for real politics....


Steamchick said:


> I have books and texts by:
> K.N. Harris, Alec Weiss, Kozo Hiraoka, Martin Evans, Tubal Cain, Prof. Andrew Jamieson (who quotes work & formula derived by Sir William Fairburn); John Goodman, et al.


Ooh nice. I'm collecting books on the subject. Hiraoka inspired me to learn draughting the old fashioned way. His stuff is top teer.
Thanks for the advice. I think I read from you sometime back about calculations and am still pretty cautious. 
One of my favorite safety warning resources are those empirical failure tests on a PDF floating around the net.
And yes, fatigue cycles are noisy to calculate and the build quality has an effect, which is why I'm slurping up all the knowledge I can. I'm not planning on building anything not already over-enginear'd. The PM boiler is about as overbuilt as it can get with all those rivets. My only deviation might be two stages of flux and squeezing the rivets (no hammering, pulling on solder joints, or fatigue hardening).


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## Mousetrap (Dec 30, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> This is the only chat site I use... Not having spotted any weirdos, maybe I am the weirdo?
> K2


You are not wrong.


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## terryd (Dec 30, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Just be careful -- the reptars and the greys are fighting for control of all governments on erf.


As the Reptars were T Rex' they already had their day.  They are still having their day on Antichthon but we'll never know for real.


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## ninefinger (Dec 30, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Keep calm Richard,
> Einstein explained relativity.... "If you are on the same hill-top at the same time moving at the same speed you all look the same". It is only when you are on the subway platform and everyone is moving fast past you in the opposite direction you realise you are "relatively" the odd one. Maybe they are all the wierdos? - And we are the ones who are "sane" (which is a relative term based on abstract ideas anyway!).
> 
> Zeb: re: your new book. Does it explain calculations for determining wall thicknesses of flue tubes, or other tubes with the copper "in compression"? - I think this is probably a "bible" for making boilers (Coppersmithing), but it may omit that particular part of boiler design (as do most books) concerning the design of "tubes in compression", particularly if copper.
> ...


Reread your Martin Evans "Model Locomotive and Marine Boilers", chapter 2, with specific reference to page 29 where he discusses flues and firetubes.  
Also, if your interested in model boiler design rules then the Australian Association of Live Steamers publishes their code book - for copper boilers its AMBSC Code Part 1 - currently at issue 8 (but others prefer the earlier issue 6 - issue 8 has removed all discussion of girder stays for firebox crowns).
It also list the minimum thickness of fire tubes and flues by diameter, and they are roughly comparable to the values Martin Evans lists. In both cases the relative thickness of the tube to its diameter is greater than that for the outer shell.


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## Steamchick (Dec 30, 2022)

Thankyou Ninefinger: 
You have a better memory than I, as I last read this book a few years ago.
I have seen many tables of this nature:
Tubal Cain (Model Engineer's handbook Pages 10.4 ~ 10.5) discusses this also.
As an example: 
* Martin Evans quotes a flue tube of 1 1/8"OD x 18SWG (0.048") as suitable for up to 120psi. ("OK" in the UK, but ASME restricts Model Copper boilers to 100psi., and has banned riveting).
* Tubal Cain repeats this information, but states the NWP should be limited to 100psi (7Bar). (His approximation of the conversion).
* I have compared Tubal Cain's table with my calculations of the hoop stress limits for copper tubes in compression based on 45MPa stress limit - further reduced for the temperature degradation as per ASME considerations. I find by "my calculations" that a 1 1/8" flue tube with 14SWG wall should be good for a NWP of 80psi. Obviously this is considerably thicker than Martin Evans et al, and uses a considerably reduced limiting stress (Based on ASME). (And my calculations and "conditions" may be wrong?).
Therefore my conclusion is that the "old" tables for flue tubes do not equate to "modern" calculations for safe limits for design of copper boilers, as indicated by ASME.
Zeb is in Camelot, and I suspect they have a more "old fashioned" perspective of safety there, in order to maintain the freedom to have Dragons, love affairs between the Knights and Queen, etc.. (We no longer have real dragons in England).
I may be "sticking my neck out here", and someone will no doubt try and "chop it off", but simply, I can only publicly state what I believe from my Engineering calculations to be a safe situation for the design of model copper boilers to suit ASME, as many contributors and readers are from the USA...
Incidentally, I am sorry if I have drifted into Engineering away from the political discussions of information exchange on the WWW.
K2


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## Richard Hed (Dec 30, 2022)

Zeb said:


> Come to thinkpf of it, I think my headset full of cameras is getting bricked January 1st unless I get a facetube account. I might end up getting one for it, but I can see why it's a personal choice. They really want to know how messy my office is.
> 
> Now for real politics....
> 
> ...


"Facetube".  I have to say, that made me laugh.  Will try to remember that one.


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## Zeb (Dec 30, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Zeb is in Camelot, and I suspect they have a more "old fashioned" perspective of safety there, in order to maintain the freedom to have Dragons, love affairs between the Knights and Queen, etc.. (We no longer have real dragons in England).
> 
> K2


bu...but..there's not a more political discussion than boilers! The camelot I live in....is only a model. It is a silly place.

The risks of boiler operation are slightly less a concern for me than the chemicals involved in making the boiler. I've already saturated my body with some nasty stuff from 20 years restoring antique flying things.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 30, 2022)

Zeb said:


> bu...but..there's not a more political discussion than boilers! The camelot I live in....is only a model. It is a silly place.
> 
> The risks of boiler operation are slightly less a concern for me than the chemicals involved in making the boiler. I've already saturated my body with some nasty stuff from 20 years restoring antique flying things.


When I was a kid (last week), it was common practice for chrome platers to get right into the tub of chemicals or immerse their hands to the elbow in the chems.  can you imagine?  (what I mean here is, Can you imagine me ever being a kid?)  No one in their right mind would do that today.  Long gloves of all kinds are now available and othr techniques to put large pieces into a tank.  I'm curious, like radioactive materials, what did the chomium salts do to those practitioners in the long run?  I couldn't imagine that they would get out scott free of some kind of liver/kidney/cancer disease.

BTW, luv yer jokes, keep them up.


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## ninefinger (Dec 31, 2022)

this boiler discussion really belongs elsewhere but I can't help myself.  The nerd in me is being drawn out - or its my OCD.   Maybe if we chat over on a facebook group the governments of our various jurisdictions will step in and set us straight?

Martin Evans does not call out 18 S.W.G. for copper - he lists that for stainless steel.  For the 1-1/8" tube he lists 16 S.W.G. (0.064")  in copper as suitable for 80-120 psi or 33% thicker than you stated.  I'm not terribly worried that my boiler I'm building is going to come apart by collapsing the tubes under normal operation.  That is what the safety factor in the calcs is for, and the fact that thousands of boilers have been made to these "standards" without issue is testament to the safety factor being sufficient.  

Also,  there is the complication that while the pressure does try to collapse the tube radially, there is almost certainly an axial tension on the tubes that may or may not paly a role in preventing collapse.  (or make it worse?)  any volunteers to model it up in CAD and perform FEA on it?


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## Steamchick (Dec 31, 2022)

The longitudinal stress adds to the failure mode, as far as I understand from the calculations that "technical papers" on the subject of stress indicate. But it is complicated because the tensile stress is combined with a perpendicular compressive stress (as the sum of squares so they become additive) but the stress limit varies depending on the stress of each vector. So to judge them independently is really the only way I know how, unless a mathematician can teach me otherwise.
I agree that safety factors exist. What I am saying suggests some old designs achieve safety factors of as low as 2 or 3 ish instead of 8, when compared to modern stress limits? Probably why "old" designs have not failed, but "not adequate" for modern thinking for insurance, certification, public exposure, personal safety, etc? (IMHO). It does not change the real "safety" of a boiler, as the metal does not change, but it changes the "risk" of failure (and litigation) when a boiler is de-rated to have a higher safety factor.
ASME seems very specific as to the limited tensile stress on pressurised copper boiler components, but I have not yet seen how it manages compressive stresses.
Hadrian's wall, the Colluseum in Rome and other buildings were not made to modern regs, but have lasted thousands of years. (Except for people robbing stones!). 
I am just advising caution, and doing full calculations for any NEW designs, to the regulations appropriate to where you live/insure your stuff. On new designs, the calculations shall be checked by an  appropriate expert as part of the initial certification (in UK practice). Designs that have previously been certified and proven are accepted on the basis of precedent. But I suggest you should be sure you are using good quality materials to suit those designs.
A bit like aircraft, this may suggest you could copy the design of De Havilland Comet window in a copy of that design, but the history records this design has been rejected following failures. So check that you copy a GOOD design with GOOD history, and without later changes being incorporated.
My Simplex boiler (after repair) will need re-certifying when I have made repairs (if the repairs are good!) But I shall de-rate it to 80psi NWP instead of the 100 psi on the drawing, as some flue tubes are "inadequate" for 100 psi compared to my interpretation of ASME Engineering ideology. Just because this may become a working boiler in a public area, covered by the Club's insurance, and it seems sensible to be as safe as "Modern thinking" requires for new stuff. Who am I to ignore stress limits or whatever determined by the experts in ASME? They have knowledge, expertise and history that didn't exist when Martin Evans and others designed their boilers.
So you do what you think is right and I shall do what I think is right, especially when advising people on a public site like this one. And surely as "Model Engineers" we should responsibly use the "best" within our knowledge, skills and expertise?
And I have not yet mentioned de-rating to account for distortion factors, stress concentraton factors etc..
There are plenty of worms in this can!
In my professional employ I had to consider far more than just the simple Hoop stress on tubes.
Please forgive my ramblings on this subject. Tell me to "Shut up!" If apropriate. No offence will be taken.
Cheers!
K2


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## SirJohn (Jan 5, 2023)

Rocket Man said:


> I have an old 1960s mini bike that I road when I was in grade school & high school.  My sons road it too.  Now its for sale.


Is your mini bike still for sale?  can you post a photo?  I have a brother that collects motor cycles and bikes who may be interested.
John


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