# Starret Scribers,Scriber sharpening  and scribed lines



## gus (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi Gurus,
Please contribute your 2 cents worth.
I don't deny being taught badly in Trade School and marking out jobs. Or perhaps I was a bad student.

1. I bought two expensive Starret Scribers to start all over again.
    How would a professional tool maker sharpen scribers? Go to bench Grinder    
    Use oils stones to hand sharpen. How pointed should the scriber points be.
2. Would the hardened scriber point eventually run out and a heat treatment
    done to restore.

3. Marking out. I don't deny using brute force to get deepest scribed line.

4. Also bought Starret Drill Point Gage to check out my free hand grinding.
   Some twist drills cut on one side. Others not too bad if I take time to eye 
   drill point.


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## Lew Hartswick (Jan 7, 2013)

Well I'd never get near a "grinder" with a scribe unless your [  I don't deny using brute force to get deepest scribed line.]  actually broke the point off.  Why do you need such a deep scribed line.?  It only has to get through the layout ink.
   ...lew...


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 7, 2013)

Gus--I too am guilty of deep scribe lines. I use layout dye and scribe lines on almost everything I do. Then when the parts are finished I have to spend a lot of time sanding the scribe lines out. For my money, use the shallowest scribe lines that you can still clearly see. I have a cheap scriber that came with a set of squares from BusyBee tools. It is simply a piece of .093" dia. drill rod with an aluminum handle. Whenever ir gets dull, I walk over to my grinder and rotate it carefully on the grinding wheel untill the point is restored.


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## MuellerNick (Jan 7, 2013)

Make the scribe lines only where necessary. Then they will disappear after boring the hole etc. If you draw the line all over the work &#8230; well, don't complain afterwards. When I was taught scribing, they measured the width of the scribe line. 5 mm, not more!

Regrinding a scriber:
Well, quite pointy. Maybe 20°? Grind it lengthwise! Point the point downwards, go over the grinding wheel with the scriber more or less pointing vertically down and rotate the scriber. Like when grinding TIG electrodes.


Nick


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## GWRdriver (Jan 7, 2013)

Lew Hartswick said:


> Well I'd never get near a "grinder" with a scribe


Nor would I.  My scribers have removable steel (not carbide) points, so when I need to dress dull points I chuck them in the lathe and at a slow speed gently apply a very fine grit paper abrasive disk in my Dremel tool to the point.  Afterward I'll draw each one across and Arkansas stone a few times, rotating the point as I draw.


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## chipenter (Jan 7, 2013)

I have a 4 inch diamond wheel on my off hand grinder , scriber point does not get as hot works a treat .


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## Alchymist (Jan 7, 2013)

OK, don't laugh,  but I use the Harbor freight mini bench grinder for delicate work. The stone is quite fine and works a treat for sharpening scribes.

http://www.harborfreight.com/bench-grinder-with-flex-shaft-43533.html


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## Walsheng (Jan 7, 2013)

I have been using an India stone for the last 40 years and spin it by hand.  I have some 1/2" square fine and course stones and if the point is very dull, (usually when someone else has used them with brute force) I start with course and then use fine.
Be careful using a grinder, it doesn't take much to overheat that fine point and take the hardness out.

John


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## gus (Jan 8, 2013)

Hi Guys,

Pardon me. Did I open a can of worms on scribed lines and scriber sharpening? We have confession of guilt and "Mea Culpa ,Mea Culpa. Mea Maxi Culpa" Ha Ha Ha.

To condition the Starret Scibers,I used Japanese Alumina Water Stones to hand sharpen.Previously I cautiously n light touch up Eclipse Scriber. Scriber Point did not lose temper and hardness. One problem arose.I misplaced same. Did it go to waste bin???

I have yet to see n witness a professional Tool Maker Scribe lines. Am sure among our forum members there has got to be Tool Makerss. Hi Gurus .Please speak up. A video would be very heplful.


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## Generatorgus (Jan 8, 2013)

gus said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Pardon me. Did I open a can of worms on scribed lines and scriber sharpening? We have confession of guilt and "Mea Culpa ,Mea Culpa. Mea Maxi Culpa" Ha Ha Ha.
> 
> ...


 
Gus 
I share your thoughts on the subject. Everything I try to layout looks like preschoolers on the loose got into my shop.

The other GUS


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## gus (Jan 8, 2013)

Generatorgus said:


> Gus
> I share your thoughts on the subject. Everything I try to layout looks like preschoolers on the loose got into my shop.
> 
> The other GUS



Hi The other Gus.

I like it.

A customer of mine was trained in G.Motors.Johannesburg,S.Africa. He did his apprenticeship In Tool Making.After the first three months ,he wanted to throw in the towel. The Maestros were a mixed bunch----Dutch,German,British etc and even Russians.All have one common trait----
very clean,tidy,meticulous,fussy and hard to please. You are taught to hold the hammer and chisel and hacksaw and file their way. No deviation.

Today 20 years later,he can still saw/chisel/file/scrape perfectly.Treats his desk as work bench with every item in its place.

OK I just bought a Starret Drill Point Gage to audit and improve my drill bit grinding.
I have too many drills cutting on one side.


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## ShopShoe (Jan 8, 2013)

Gus,

I have been known to "touch up" (take the term in your context) my scriber point with a diamond hand hone. I also use these on HSS toolbits without having to remove them from the lathe.

I have more than one scriber, including one with replaceable points, one point is sharpened as a blade (flat, not like a pencil point) as my old-timer woodshop teacher taught me for wood marking guages many years ago. 

See:

http://eze-lap.com/woodworking_shop_machine_use/hone-stone

--ShopShoe


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## ShopShoe (Jan 8, 2013)

Just had another thought:

I sometimes have ugly, clumpy results and poor scribing due to the Dychem not drying evenly due to the unregulated temperature and humidity in my shop. Could that also be a factor in Gus's situation?

Does someone know of an additive for Dychem (Yes, the commercial product, I have a decade's supply due to a clerical error.) for differing climates.

--ShopShoe


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## Walsheng (Jan 8, 2013)

gus said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Pardon me. Did I open a can of worms on scribed lines and scriber sharpening? We have confession of guilt and "Mea Culpa ,Mea Culpa. Mea Maxi Culpa" Ha Ha Ha.
> 
> ...


 
No can of worms, just a good question.
I started in the toolmaking business in 1972 and spent many years designing and building molds for the platic industry. Can't count how many apprentices I trained over the years.  Maybe I qualify as a professional toolmaker!
When I started we did not have any CNC or digital readouts for that matter so I ALWAYS used scribe lines for a visual reference. And I still use scribe lines as a double check.  Nothing worse than spending hours or days working on a piece of steel and scrap it because of a backlash issue or just a brain cramp.

John


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## gus (Jan 8, 2013)

Walsheng said:


> No can of worms, just a good question.
> I started in the toolmaking business in 1972 and spent many years designing and building molds for the platic industry. Can't count how many apprentices I trained over the years.  Maybe I qualify as a professional toolmaker!
> When I started we did not have any CNC or digital readouts for that matter so I ALWAYS used scribe lines for a visual reference. And I still use scribe lines as a double check.  Nothing worse than spending hours or days working on a piece of steel and scrap it because of a backlash issue or just a brain cramp.
> 
> John



OK I found the Maestro Tool maker. Please enlighten us on scribers,scribed lines,centre popping and drilling holes "spot on" the Tool Maker's way.

It is true the CNC FMS production like can finish a mold in less than 24 hours
but final fitting and finishing is done by Tool makers. Went to my classmate's
"Mold Factory" to watch molds being machined and tranferred from one machine to another down the line. Just mind shattering.
Always admired Tool Makers for their dedication and work.  A young apprentice just got to adjust and fit in. Skills are learned,acquired,practiced upon to perfection. Tools are very personal. 
Recalled a very old Tool Maker removing and taking home all his personal tools.He just could not bear leaving them behind.
w/o leaving a single tool behind. 

Traditional Tool Makers Chest. Wanted to buy one of this from UK but they won't ship to Singapore.Looks like I have to make one myself but my carpentry is just  " Can Do".


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## Walsheng (Jan 8, 2013)

gus said:


> OK I found the Maestro Tool maker. Please enlighten us on scribers,scribed lines,centre popping and drilling holes "spot on" the Tool Maker's way.
> 
> It is true the CNC FMS production like can finish a mold in less than 24 hours
> but final fitting and finishing is done by Tool makers. Went to my classmate's
> ...



I don't know about "Maestro" but I've made a few chips. The best advice I can give about machining to a scribe line is - DON'T.  Use them as a reference and double check only.  Leave that bit of art to woodworking!

I learned to build molds the old fashion way, pre-CNC, and there was a lot of fitting and hand work.  The molds built in the new shops are designed and tolereanced to fit together amazingly well.  The skill then becomes in the design and programming.

Traditional tool makers chest.  Gerstner-International.com has a line of chests that are made in China.  I have seen them and they are pretty good for the price. I know Sears carries them.

John


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## Swifty (Jan 9, 2013)

Started my toolmaking apprenticeship in 1970 and everyone always ground their scribers using the white wheels that are used on the surface grinders. Always seemed to hold their sharpness. Currently use a carbide tipped scriber when it's needed.

Paul.


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## gus (Jan 9, 2013)

ShopShoe said:


> Just had another thought:
> 
> I sometimes have ugly, clumpy results and poor scribing due to the Dychem not drying evenly due to the unregulated temperature and humidity in my shop. Could that also be a factor in Gus's situation?
> 
> ...



I used Staedtler Permanent marker which dries fast but smudges with Tapmatic Oil which I use as lube oil and coolant. Bought a Spray Can of Crown USA Toolmakers Ink Blue. Dries quickly,no flaking and heat resistant.
12 years Ingersoll-Rand paid it .Today Gus pays for it .Cost me a bomb.Will try out and revert tomorrow as I mark the Boring Head.
This forum been fun.So horse trading .Oops Info trading.


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## gus (Jan 9, 2013)

Hi Paul,

ToolMakers are my heros for their dedication to perfection in their workmanship,precision and finishing.Sincerely wished We had ToolMakers as our Trade School Instructors in 1961. We were taught by second grade tradesmen.So we picked up their bad habits. 

Thanks for the tip. My Eclipse UK Scriber also gets sharpened on the bench grinder with very light touches just to ensure not losing their hardness. The problem now,is I misplaced the scriber. Ha Ha. At 70,Gus gets forgetful.Ha Ha. But I am working on it. One question.Does the point need to be needle sharp.And how hard do we have to scribe (Or Scatch) lines.


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## Swifty (Jan 9, 2013)

Hi Gus, I think that the scriber point has to be a compromise, not too pointy and thin or it won't stand up long, but still thin enough to leave a nice clean line. Hardness is of course an important issue, tempered enough to avoid the point breaking off. 
As an apprentice I had an eclipse scriber with both straight and bent ends, no idea what happened to it. Later on I made scribers out of silver steel (drill rod), and after that I silver soldered 1/16" dia carbide rod into a piece of silver steel and ground it on a diamond wheel, I still use that scriber today.

Paul.


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## Mosey (Jan 9, 2013)

I just bought a NOS Starrett scriber to replace a worn-out General one of 25  years use. I like its feel.
I sharpened it by gently drawing backwards down a wet Japanese 600 stone, while twirling it in a circle. It is now sharp as a tack.
When drawing lines in marking out, I hold it vertically so the point is against the straight edge tightly, and make the lines quite this. They make a clear crisp scratch. That's it. The technique is the same as proper drafting with pencil on paper. Equally lost tp the mellenium of electronic graphics.


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## gus (Jan 10, 2013)

Mosey said:


> I just bought a NOS Starrett scriber to replace a worn-out General one of 25  years use. I like its feel.
> I sharpened it by gently drawing backwards down a wet Japanese 600 stone, while twirling it in a circle. It is now sharp as a tack.
> When drawing lines in marking out, I hold it vertically so the point is against the straight edge tightly, and make the lines quite this. They make a clear crisp scratch. That's it. The technique is the same as proper drafting with pencil on paper. Equally lost tp the mellenium of electronic graphics.



Hi Mosey,
Thanks for sharing on scriber point sharpening. I must congrat you for buying
Japanese 600 grit Wet Stone. It is expensive but sharpens well .

Here is my contribution. Been doing it wrong way sharpening knives for past 49 years as I discovered when I dropped by the Central Fish Market at Tsujiki,Tokyo.Paased by a Sashimi Knife Shop and saw Japanese Artisan using a series of water stones from 600# to 6000# to sharpen sashimi knifes. After watching for 30 minutes.I gathered enough courage to ask for all the stones.To my surprise the owner speak good English. He recommended 3 stones from 600------1000--------3000 to sharpen kitchen knives.Stones cost me US$150.10,000# stone is for shavers.There are two trade secrets.All stones must soak in water for 10 mins in order to sharpen when. One last one was ,you need to condition the stones to original perfect flatness. Wee bitty running water flush away waste to expose new grit.Most stones end up concave and no good for sharpening.
Today my boss is very happy with her kitchen knives but she has another complain the knifes are "dragon slaying Knives", that is too sharp and tends to cut her fingers.
Last foto shows a typical mutilated stone. Stone now a paper weight in the kitchen.


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## Mosey (Jan 11, 2013)

Gus,
Take heart, help is close at hand. Take your concave ruined stone, a flat piece of plate glass or a marble tile from the Home Depot, a sheet of wet or dry paper, and have at it. In no time at all, your stone will be optically flat again. Or reasonably close.
I took a workshop with a Japanese master woodworker, that included sharpening your Japanese chisel and plane blades. Now this is absolutely true...we spent 3 days on our knees on the floor flattening our stones in a tub of water on such a plate. Only when he decided they were flat enough, did we gain the privilege of sharpening our plane blades on these stones. And, when he decided that the stones now had become  concave again, mysterious Zen process, it was back to the tub to flatten agaain. The plane blades were deemed to be sharp only when the tiny honed curl on the backside of the edge fell off by itself.
My classmate, ex-marine, and I concluded that there was some inexplicable ancient mental state we had attained to get real sharpness. Then I think you are supposed to commit sepaku, ritual self-disembowelment.
Anyhow, flatten your stones and sharpen away.
Your wife is right, by the way.
Mosey


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## gus (Jan 12, 2013)

Did a bit of carpentry. Mostly used Record,UK Jack Planers and Chinese Planers. Went to TokyuHands,out curiosity bought a japanese planer.To my surprise they beat our chinese planers. Second trip bought a larger planer. Restoring the original sharpness now not a problem. All my carpentry now use Japanese hand tools.Saw a collector planer in its wooden box and this cost a fortune.Was hand crafted by Master.
Went on to teach my ex-boss in Yarra Wine Valley,Melbourne,Australia.Bob was a good student.His wife,Ruth now very happy with all the kitchen knives especially the meat carving knive.See fotos. The Sashimi Knife Shop in the Tsujiki Fish market.My Aussie Boss.

I envy you.Taught by a Japanese Carpentry Master.I did mine by the backdoor to cut meat not wood. Before WW-ll we did have Japanese Carpenters in Singapore. It is so self-satisfying to have carpentry tools that are so sharp and you get the required results. Failure of which would a badly mutilated wood piece.It is not so easy to get hold of Japanese Water Stones outside Japan.I have a good collection. All craftsmen treasure their tools and they just won't lend theirs. Same thing with my fishing rods.Ha Ha.


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## Mosey (Jan 12, 2013)

You will find me on Model Engine Maker forum most of the time. Come on in, the water's fine.


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## gus (Jan 13, 2013)

Mosey said:


> You will find me on Model Engine Maker forum most of the time. Come on in, the water's fine.




Thanks,Mosey.

Will drop by.See you. We both seems to have common interest.
Bought many jack planers but never happy. But the Japanese planers enthralled me.


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## Mosey (Jan 13, 2013)

Gus,
I confess to having a few hand-forged chisels and wooden planes on the wall. The big block plane that I sharpened a few years ago still is sharp enough to keep using and it makes a curl thin enough to read the paper through. I will sharpen it sometime again.
Keep in mind that the Japanese generally work with soft woods, unlike us. Cherry may be the hardest.
Hope to see you over there.
Mosey


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## MuellerNick (Jan 13, 2013)

After reading all those funny time-waisting methods to sharpen a scriber, I think it is time to invent a jig for that process and sell it for a lot of money or invest 3 weekends building your own. You guys must have too much money or too much time or both of it.

Before waisting $150 for whet stones to get the scriber sharp, I suggest to invest the 17 seconds my method in posting #4 takes. 


Nick


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## lensman57 (Jan 13, 2013)

gus said:


> Hi Gurus,
> Please contribute your 2 cents worth.
> I don't deny being taught badly in Trade School and marking out jobs. Or perhaps I was a bad student.
> 
> ...


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## Mosey (Jan 13, 2013)

MuellerNick said:


> After reading all those funny time-waisting methods to sharpen a scriber, I think it is time to invent a jig for that process and sell it for a lot of money or invest 3 weekends building your own. You guys must have too much money or too much time or both of it.
> 
> Before waisting $150 for whet stones to get the scriber sharp, I suggest to invest the 17 seconds my method in posting #4 takes.
> 
> ...


Nick,
Most respectfully, you just don't get it.
Go to the dictionary or internet, or whatever, and look up the word "zen".
Read everything listed therein.
Go buy some $300.00 natural waterstones.
Get on your knees.
Sharpen until you see the light.
You will then feel sharp, and your sharpened finishing nail will feel sharp.
Get back to us and let us know how you feel.


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## gus (Jan 14, 2013)

Mosey said:


> Nick,
> Most respectfully, you just don't get it.
> Go to the dictionary or internet, or whatever, and look up the word "zen".
> Read everything listed therein.
> ...



Hi Mosey,

Initially Gus did balked at the Water Stone Prices displayed at TokyuHands,Shinjuku,Tokyo,Japan. Did some price check.The prices at Tsujiki
Fish Market were slightly cheaper. Saw my Senseis sharpening knives and testing their sharpness. Went all over the fish market to watch other senseis sharpening knives.And recalling how sharp the Katanas (Samurai Sword) and the sashimi knives were. Having seen how they knock the tuna heads with small knives with extreme ease makes sense.The Japanese and their expensive water stones adds up.
You are right.Until one gained insight and the experience sharpening knives the Japanese way,one will not see enlightment. 
Just came in from the kitchen.Boss wants her fish knives sharpened in 5 mins.Or else no fish slice soup for dinner.Nellie is a good cook.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 14, 2013)

Unfortunately, discussing fish knives and whatever is somewhat irrelevant -especially when there is a problem- and a major one at that- about sharpening machine tools.

Machine tools is where - we  or you- came in.


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