# Arc welding



## firebird (Aug 31, 2010)

Hi

I'm going to buy an (cheap) arc welder. The ability to "stick" two bits of steel together for jig and tool making amongst other etc appeals to me. Anybody have any tips as what sort I should look at.

Cheers

Rich


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 31, 2010)

You're going to get all sorts of different advice on this topic Rich. Ask 10 welders and you'll get 11 different answers. 

Cheap arc welders will weld but when you see what more expensive welders can do, you'll wish you had one of those before long. 

My advice: Welders pop up frequently on Craigslist. I'd keep an eye out for a used Miller, Lincoln or similar brand (assuming those are sold where you are) MIG welder with gas. Welders work for years but the prices become very reasonable as they get a little older. 

The most accurate welding is done with TIG and those welders are a little more expensive but again, thru Craigslist they can be had for a lot less than new prices. It takes a lot of practice to weld with TIG. MIG takes a little practice and does a decent job. 

This will be first of many different opinions coming your way. 

-Trout


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## Jasonb (Aug 31, 2010)

This UK forum is quite good, have a read of the section on how to arc weld as it goes into the various types, the very cheap AC ones are not as easy to use as the DC inverters for stick welding.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

For tig you would be best with HF start but that puts you towards £1000 price bracket.

Jason


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## robwilk (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't know much about power and amps and that sort of stuff but be care full as i got a cheap arc welder and if i have it turned up to much when i get welding it trips my electrics which is very annoying when you are half way through a weld. 
Rob....


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## Lakc (Aug 31, 2010)

Jig and tool making for a machinist, generally will exclude welding, as there is too much distortion to hold tolerances. They are handy to have, but any bits you stick together will likely be +- 5 degrees when they cool. They are extremely handy as a "putting on" tool, however.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 31, 2010)

As a general rule, machining and welding are somewhat incompatible. I have a stick welder, a mig welder, and an oxy-acetylene welding set up, and while they are all great for fabrication, they all cause distortion in the metals they weld. Ask any senior machinist, and they will all tell you how nasty it is working on components that have been welded. If they had their way, everything would be drilled and dowelled and bolted together. If you can do it, buy a tig set up. If you can't, then consider that most stick welders capable of 180 to 225 amp output will give a far greater strength weld than any 110 volt mig, but you have to deal with the slag. A 110 Volt mig with a gas bottle won't give you much strength (as in weld penetration) but are clean, easy to use, and do great for "temporarily" sticking things together.


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 31, 2010)

It seems to me that once welded, some distortion can be machined out, depending on the tool or project of course. Bob did a nice job on his engine block in his "Hit me Miss Me" thread. 

Keeping in mind, I'm looking at it from a novice machinist's point of view. 

-T


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## Jasonb (Aug 31, 2010)

Does rather depend on the type of engines you are building, if you like the bolted together bar stock look thats fine but if you want to fabricate something that looks like it was cast then a welder will be a big asset for fabricating parts, the base and main frame for this engine were stick welded, the only castings were the flywheels. And the next traction engine I want to do needs a fair bit of welding.

As trout says you can weld up a part and then treat it as a "casting" you just build in machining allowances

Jason


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## Blogwitch (Aug 31, 2010)

Rich,

As I know you are in the UK, if stick welding takes your fancy, keep away from cheapo air cooled units. If you do a search about, you should be able to find a used single phase oil filled for somewhere between 50 and 100 squid. Have a search for 'oil arc welder' on fleabay

Air cooled give a very harsh arc, whereas an oil cooled unit is usually silky smooth and much more controllable.

I have very successfully stick welded 1/16" plate using an oil cooled unit, with very little distortion, whereas with an air cooled on the same amperage you would easily blow holes thru 1/8" plate.

I wish I still had my gas and arc welding gear, for the same reason as yourself, but I just don't have the room to store it.


John


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## Kermit (Aug 31, 2010)

Hi Rich.

I'm one of those people, that like you, wanted to get a cheap stick welder. It will do fine, if you don't expect much from it. 

Most of my boo'boo's have been from operator error, and persistence has learned me pretty good. It will make things stick together. It won't be pretty. If that's all you need then go ahead and get one. 

I've wished for a better one before, but have yet to have a situation arise where I HAD to have something better. I'm not a welder by trade and because that isn't my preferred tool I find other solutions than welding most times.  Sometimes though, only welding will do. 

A broken bracket for a post that holds the swing gate in the backyard...could be done with lots of drilling and bolts and time, but two small one inch beads and 15 minutes later the bracket is good for another 5 or 10 years.  ;D  Then I put the welder back in the garage for next time I need it...... ;D

Kermit


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## Maryak (Aug 31, 2010)

Trout - Thanks for the kind words. :bow:

Distortion is the bane of electric/gas glue. I try to follow this:-

1. Think about the sequence of operations which will allow each subsequent weld to minimise the distortion caused by the one before it.

2. Where possible use substantial clamps to locate the parts so that they can't move around.

3. Tack weld an assembly and adjust for true after each tack. Then when the assembly is true and stable fill in the gaps following 1. above.

4. Treat the assembly like a casting, provide a machining allowance where necessary and don't do any machining until the welding is complete.

As for the welder - don't buy one which has a poor duty cycle - usually means no cooling system. You are better off keeping your money in your pocket as there are cheaper ways to become angry and frustrated, (ask me how I know  ).

Hope this makes sense and helps

Best Regards
Bob


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 31, 2010)

I have a little Campbell Hasfeld flux core wire feed welder. It is very handy for welding 1/16 to 1/8 steel. I have used it to build a stock rack a bench and a couple of selves. I would love to have a A/C DC inverter rig that would do stick and TIG. But as soon as you go A/ C tig the price goes up especially the ones you can program the wave patterns . I need to get the cheater lenses in my welding shield so I see the puddle. the last project I did the welds were not exactly where I wanted. 
Tin


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## Maryak (Sep 1, 2010)

JorgensenSteam  said:
			
		

> You cannot weld one-handed.
> 
> Pat J



Sorry Pat but a good professional welder rarely welds any other way and equally with either hand. There are many jobs where it is not possible to get more than one hand and the rod into the correct position to carry out the weld. 

And no I'm not a professional welder, but I've been around them most of my working life building ships and repairing boilers etc.

I don't want to start a bun fight but IMHO the above gives a newbie to welding a most undesirable handicap.

Best Regards
Bob


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

> And no I'm not a professional welder, but I've been around them most of my working life building ships and repairing boilers etc.



Well I was, and I agree - one handed welding is the only way to do it, and as Bob says, become proficient with both hands. Mind you, Australian welding practice is somewhat different to the US, with our use of stringer beads rather than heavy runs. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the bottom line is better welds and better metal in 'em.


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## Blogwitch (Sep 1, 2010)

When doing my two year college course on gas and arc welding (courtesy of HM government, and no I wasn't locked up), the instructor allowed us for the first couple of lessons to cut our rods in half. 
Striking the arc is one of the difficult bits to master, especially at a distance, and having a shorter rod allows you to practice striking and the first tentative runs much easier, because of less trembling at the strike and run point. Once you got that under your belt, you then went onto full length rods.
One of the final exam tests was to strike and weld a deep filletted joint, both horizontal and vertical at full arms length.

You shouldn't be needing to weld anything like that, but in the beginning, the short stick method might come in very handy, and allow you to get things made.

Bogs


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## firebird (Sep 1, 2010)

Hi

Thank you one and all for the very in depth reply.

Allow me to explain my reasons a little better. I have the propane bottle of course and I also have at the moment a small portapack oxy/acet welding set. I think that shortly I will lose my way of getting the bottles exchanged. The cost of registering and paying the rent is going to make them not cost effective. My mate Julian has an arc welder and a gasless mig welder and of the 2 the arc welder seems to be the better. I have been looking at the Machine Mart welders that are in the £100.00 bracket. Would John Bogstandards second hand idea be a better choice???? 

Cheers

Rich


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## Noitoen (Sep 1, 2010)

In relation to gas bottle renting here in Portugal, they have 1 cubic meter cylinders that are "rent free". The gas is a little more expensive but all you have to do is buy a set and the extra charge takes care of the rest of the "bureaucracy". In relation to the MIG welding, some guys "make friends" with the local bar and get the CO2 gas for the beer machine for the welding machine. They come in little aluminium cylinders an although nowadays the gas mixture for MIG is a little different, the result is much better than the "gas less" welding. 

You can also check this out  http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/readyweld/readyweld.html


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

Pat, I still disagree with using two hands, if you are going to weld you might just as well learn to do it properly from the get-go. As a fabricator, rather than a ship builder , I lot of my work involved/involves steel of light section, often RHS or small section angle, but the same rules still apply. Here's one of mine from a couple of years back, a job like this you just don't have a spare hand to put on the stick holder, and wouldn't if you had 6 of the things.


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

And here's a job from a week or so back - some brackets for a local builder.


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

Something a little larger


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

;D Look forward to seeing them!


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## Maryak (Sep 1, 2010)

Pat,

As you say - what works for you, it's your shop, your welder and do what you think is best.

Tel and I are only pointing out that your method is not the accepted way of welding and learning a more versatile method from the start is surely a good thing for any one starting out with a new skill.

Best Regards
Bob


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

On a smaller scale - about 9" long


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## Maryak (Sep 1, 2010)

Hit and Miss Base about 6" long.

Made up of 7 pieces of 6mm plate.


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## firebird (Sep 1, 2010)

Hi

Once again thanks for all the info.

Found this one one e bay, oil cooled  

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TONCO-OIL-COO...CESSORIES-/370417534828?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3

The spec says 55 amp is the lowest setting. Is that low enough?????

Cheers

Rich


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## tel (Sep 1, 2010)

Plenty low enough, and plenty high enough at 140, most of my welding is done on a cheapish 130 amp welder I bought 30 odd years ago - still going strong AND it is air cooled.


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## Maryak (Sep 2, 2010)

JorgensenSteam  said:
			
		

> If you try and hold up a welding cable with one hand all day, your hand will be shaking like an alcoholic in withdrawl. I have welded all day with a heavy industrial lead, and even with two hands, my hands were shaking at the end of the day. And I have arms like a gorilla (my wife said my brain is equally gorilla-like, but that is just her).
> 
> Happy welding to all, no matter how many hands you use.
> 
> Pat J



Try putting the lead over your shoulder, it carries the weight then you have a small loop between your shoulder and the handpiece, with minimal drag on the handpiece.


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## Jasonb (Sep 2, 2010)

Its interesting that over here at least 90% of the entry level welders are sold with hand held face guards like thisso most beginners would be forced to weld one handed.

Firebird if your budget will stretch then get an autodarkening helmet they make it so much easier to see what you are upto.

Jason


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 2, 2010)

I would second the auto shade helmet. Harbor freight has them for IIRC $50 US on a fairly regular basis maybe you have similar. Not a bad piece of kit and the normal lens is a shade 5 so even if it fails you would never get totally flashed. 
Tin


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## tel (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm another convert to the auto helmets - for years I resisted getting one, but I finally got dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century when Mrs Tel bought me one. Now I wouldn't be without.


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## Lakc (Sep 2, 2010)

JorgensenSteam  said:
			
		

> I turned the tombstone welder down to the lowest setting, 40 amps, and just for fun, tired to weld two thick razor blades together using a 1/16" rod (not that you would want to do this, but just to get an idea about range/heat). If I could turn my welder down to 20 amps, I could certainly weld thick razor blades.


Try that again with the blades clamped to a nice thick block of copper. If the welder cant give you less heat, try taking some away.


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## Troutsqueezer (Sep 2, 2010)

I have a brain infarction when it comes to auto shade helmets. I've thought about it too much I suppose. 

Which is faster, the speed of light or the changing of the shade elements in the helmet? We know it is the light that is quicker, so a certain amount does reach your eyes, for a very short time I know. I used to hang around welder's forums for quite awhile and those guys will tell you that with auto shade helmets, at the end of a long day, their eyes are scratchy from the cumulative effects of the arc. For occasional use it is probably not harmful in the long run, maybe not even for the professionals. Still, I have that brain infarction. 

-Trout


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## radfordc (Sep 2, 2010)

I don't have anything to add to this discussion...yet. I just ordered a HF Dual Mig 151 welder and auto darkening helmet while they were on sale. Both items shipped to my door for less than $200.

I will try the welder as a FCAW (gasless) and see how bad it is before I spring for a regulator and argon bottle. Looks like adding the gas will cost more than the welder?

Charlie


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## firebird (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi

Once again many thanks for the input gentlemen. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Julian and I both bought the auto darkening helmets that were on offer at a show we attended for £40.00, I haven't tried it yet cos I don't have a welder. I'll keep looking at whats on offer for a while but the oil filled one (I posted the link above) looks the best so far.

Cheers

Rich


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## Deanofid (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi Rich;
Does that welder you're looking at have a duty cycle rating? I know it's oil filled, but it would seem like 
there should still be some kind of duty cycle, especially if you're running it at full amperage.

I didn't get into this discussion 'til now, since there seemed to be plenty of opinions already. I actually am a 
welder by trade, certified, papered, ticketed, have all my shots, etc. etc. If you have some questions 
that you didn't find answered already, I'll try to help.

One thing I'll comment on now, that seemed to get beat around a bit. Use two hands when you first 
start. You are going to need to learn to make a proper puddle at first. You don't need to be worrying
about doing what other guys do while learning that.

After you know how to make a puddle, and run it with good penetration and no burn-throughs, work
on using one hand. Professional welders (me) do use one hand when needed. If you are in position 
to use both hands, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes, you only have one hand 
available, and for that, you just have to learn it. I've hung by a harness for hours at a time, welding 
the inside of an H beam that was facing away from me. Not only could I not fit two hands around it,
but one hand was holding a mirror so I could see the place to weld. Obviously, that situation requires
one hand welding. In those days, I often had a cigarette in one hand, too, so welding one handed was
handy. Sometimes, you have to hang on to something with one hand, and weld with the other. 
Sometimes, you just can't get two hands where you want them. Situations are many and varied. 
For the start though, use both hands. You'll get good, faster.

Dean


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## Deanofid (Sep 2, 2010)

Yes, they are sometimes called "Jet" rod, which is just a nickname. It's high deposition rod, and usually 
it will only weld about +10 / -0 degrees out of horizontal. In other words, very slightly up hill, but not 
down hill at all, or the flux will run past the puddle and cause inclusions. 

It does have a metal composition flux, and usually the flux is about twice as thick as the diameter of the
rod itself. The flux is self removing when it's run at the right amperage and drag angle. You never have 
to chip it off. It peels up and curls off the weld by itself.

We used that stuff for large structural elements that were laying flat on the ground. It needs a groove
ground into both pieces for the filler to tie into. Usually, it requires a root pass with something like lo-hi 
rod before you can weld up a groove. It won't make proper 90° fillets very well, as it's such a
slow freeze rod. But, if you're joining two beveled pieces that are flat, it will lay down a lot of material
fast, and fill a large area. It's very strong when used properly. We often used it to weld new grousers on Caterpillar tracks, too. Not much use for the home welder, though.

Dean


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## Deanofid (Sep 2, 2010)

JorgensenSteam  said:
			
		

> Dean-
> 
> I was typing while you were replying.
> Is the "Jet" rod considered an E7014?



No, not the type I was referring to above. Lincoln Electric has a bunch of rod types they call "Jet", but
that particular reference is one of their trademarks. I wasn't referring specifically to Lincoln rod when I 
wrote "Jet". Like I said, it was just a nickname. More than one company makes a high deposit iron 
powder rod, but it's not 7014, in any case.
7014 is a general purpose rod. 



> ..using a E7014 building a trailer. It is "down-only" welding, but those welds were flat and smooth, and looked like a machine had welded them.



It's not a "down-only" rod, though. The "1" in 7014 means all position. Up, flat, overhead, horizontal. 
It is not particularly easy to use going up, as it does deposit more metal than other GP rods. That 
also makes it look nice when welding flat.  



> Give us some of your do's and don't, or 10 tricks to get good welds or something.
> You could probably tell us in 5 minutes what it would take reading an entire welding book.
> 
> Pat J



Pat, I don't really know what to say for a "10 tricks" kind of thing. A specific question might be better. 
And, I don't mean for you to ask 10 questions! If you have a question about something you would like 
to know, *maybe* I can help.

Okay, here's one thing. Welding down almost never makes a great weld. If you have a vertical section
to weld, go up. That will only apply to metal that is thick enough to prevent it from burning through. 
For thin sheet, welding down is usually the only option. 

One more. 6010 or 6011 are usually better rods for general welding than the popular 6013. The first
two require you to "work the puddle", but they both have superior penetration to 6013. They also do
not fool you into thinking you have a good weld, like 6013 often does. 6013 will lay up on top of what
you think you are welding, and to the casual user may look like a good enough weld, when really, it's
just sitting there. It has the characteristic of looking okay even when inadequate current was used.

Dean


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## firebird (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi

Well it seems there's more to this stick welding lark than it first appears :big: :big: :big:

Thank you all again for the replies, I'm learning a lot but there's a lot to learn.

Dean this is the spec

SPECIFICATIONS



Input voltage ---------------------- 220 volts - 50 HZ



Power settings------------------------------------------4.



Power settings amps --- 55 - 80 - 110 - 140 AMPS.



Rated Welding Current ------------------- 50 Amps.



Maximum Open cicuit voltage ------------ 75 volts.



Electrode Sizes ----------------------- 2mm to 3.2mm



Packed dimensions --- L 300 x H 270 x W 300 mm

 Does that help???

Cheers

Rich


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## tel (Sep 3, 2010)

You'll get there Rich - the only difference between a bad welder and a good one is a few hundred hours of practice.


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## Deanofid (Sep 3, 2010)

tel  said:
			
		

> You'll get there Rich - the only difference between a bad welder and a good one is a few hundred hours of practice.



 ;D And a few hundred pounds of rod.
I'm of the school that thinks that anyone can learn to weld fairly well. It depends on how much 
time you want to devote to it, and what you will call an acceptable result. Don't settle!

Rich, I read those specs on the auction page that was up a few days ago. I was looking for 
"duty cycle", which tells you how long you can weld at a given amperage. 

All welders get hot. Some of the heat goes into the weld puddle, and the rest ends up in the 
welding machine coils. It depends on how fast the coils can get rid of the heat, and that works
into the duty cycle thing.

If it gets hot very fast, it will shut down, (or burn up). Usually, they have a thermal protection.
I'm trying to get you to look for a duty cycle that will let you weld for a while before you have to 
stop. The duty cycle is usually given at the highest rating of the welder. Many of the cheapo welders
have only a 10% duty cycle. They can only weld for one minute out of 10 at full power, and the
rest of the time they have to cool off.

Look for something with a duty cycle of around 40% or more at top rated amperage. When you 
weld at lower amperage, the duty cycle is extended.

Dean


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## Maryak (Sep 3, 2010)

tel  said:
			
		

> You'll get there Rich - the only difference between a bad welder and a good one is a few hundred hours of practice.



And a good angle grinder :

Best Regards
Bob


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## Troutsqueezer (Sep 3, 2010)

And a flapdisk. :big:


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 4, 2010)

words of wisdom:
Make sure your words are soft and sweet lets you have to eat them.
make sure you welds are small and neat lest you have to grind them.

Seriously though a 4 1/2 inch grinder is a must have companion to a welder. can be used for cleaning metal be fore and after welding . Making cuts in light metal , prepping welds , cutting off temp welds tacks ,grinding welds flush, and last but not least cleaning up mistakes and boo boos. several .040 or .0625(1/16 cut off wheels a hard grind wheel and a soft pads or flap wheel. 
I earned a living albeit a bit meager in a steel fabrication shop for about a year. lots of IIRC 1 1/12 pipe welded to a 3/8 x 4" square plate. We welded 10s of thousands of those things. went though lots of wire all MIG and stargon gas. The customer though we had a robot doing the welds because" no human could weld that smooth and that fast. " There are ways my friend. The best welds are the ones no one has to grind. when you only have a minute a part to set up and weld there is no time to grind. 
Tin


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## firebird (Sep 4, 2010)

Hi

This thread is turning out to be a real mine of information, keep it coming gents.

Dean, I'll send the seller a question and see what comes back.

I have an angle grinder with various types of discs already. I also bought (from Aldi) quite a while ago a leather welding apron and gauntlets. They used to sell arc welders but haven't had any in for quite a while now hence I am looking elsewhere. I'm not in any rush I just want one. You know what its like, got a workshop, must fill it with kit and gadgets :big: :big: :big:


Cheers

Rich

Ps

Speaking of workshops I've been on the roof of mine all day fixing the roof. I'll post a couple of pictures over in the workshop section.


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## firebird (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi Dean

I've had a reply from the seller. The duty cycle is 20%. Is that good enough for hobby use???


Cheers

Rich


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 5, 2010)

if you are talking about DC welding that is not horrible. IIRC typical of the old standby Lincoln stick welders. 
Like you said lots to think about. there are still lots of the old transformer technology welders out there and still being sold and made. Many a ship have been built with these. It is tried and true technology. The down side is generally low duty cycles low efficiency and heavy bulky machines. In spite of the rise in copper prices these units are still cheaper than the newer inverters. 
the new inverter technology you have a welder in some cases the size of a loaf of bread or a bread box. These are much more efficient and not unusual to have 100% duty cycle at mid range amperage. 
Personally I would be a bit leary of a welder without a decent spec sheet telling you duty cycle at several settings, at last low end mid range and top. 
if I could afford it this is a great welder.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e3110.pdf
in reality at this moment this is much more affordable
http://www.harborfreight.com/tig-mma-inverter-welding-machine-with-digital-readout-98233.html





$350 us plus regulator fittings and gas bottle. but you can start with stick without all the extras. 100% @ 140 30% @160 amps not too shabby. probably over rated but still very usable. 
just some things to think about in reality there have been many farmers over the yars that relied on an old lincoln buzz box to doo the welding. while not fancy or the one you are looking at will weld. 

Tin


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## Deanofid (Sep 5, 2010)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Hi Dean
> 
> I've had a reply from the seller. The duty cycle is 20%. Is that good enough for hobby use???
> Rich



Well, maybe. For the size of the one you're looking at, that's not really great. It's only 140 amps to 
begin with, and if you want to weld with something like 1/8" 70xx rod, it's going to be shutting down
every couple of minutes.
The duty cycle does go up when you use lower amperage, so if you think you can weld down at the 
bottom of the amp tap on that one, it may a few minutes or so before it gets hot.

One of my machines is an older Lincoln tombstone welder, like the kind Tin has mentioned. It has a 
20% duty cycle too, but that is at 225 amps. At 70 amps, it's 100% and at 125 amps is about 70%. 
I don't mean you should get a Lincoln. They are still a good price here, but would probably be a lot
there, 'cause they're fairly heavy. You might look around a little more to see if you can find a model
that will give about 50% at a usable amperage. Something that will run 1/8" rod for five minutes at a
stretch, or 3/32" rod for a bit longer than that. Then you will be able to sit down and get some practice
in without the machine constantly shutting off.

I wish you could get something British or European made with a good spec. I wouldn't buy any of the
Chinese ones. I've used two of those and have nothing good to say about them. They get hot fast, and
take a long time to cool down. The truth is they simply lie about the duty cycle.

I know some products in certain countries are simply more expensive than elsewhere. You may have
to take what is available.

Dean


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## John S (Sep 5, 2010)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Hi Dean
> 
> I've had a reply from the seller. The duty cycle is 20%. Is that good enough for hobby use???
> 
> ...



No it's absolute crap, you would be better off with a BIC lighter.

John S.


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## Deanofid (Sep 6, 2010)

John is much more to the point. If he'd chimed in first, it would have saved me some typing.  

Dean


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## Jasonb (Sep 6, 2010)

Don't forget anything much over 150A you won't be able to run of a 13amp household plugtop when on full power

Jason


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## firebird (Sep 6, 2010)

Hi

Thanks gents.

Don't ya just love John S. answer. He don't mince his words doe's he. :big: :big: :big:

Like I said I'm in no rush so I'll keep an eye on e bay and come back to you all if I spot something.

Cheers

Rich


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## Troutsqueezer (Sep 7, 2010)

So there ya go Rich. Just like I said..... :big: Opinions all over the place.

When I started welding a few years back I wanted to go the inexpensive route too, naturally. But it's like car shopping online; I gotta have cruise control and I gotta have power mirrors...by the time you come with the "gotta haves" it always winds up costing you more than you thought or hoped it would. 

It took me so long to find exactly what I wanted at a cheap price that my monthly allowance (thanks Honey!) kept adding up to where I eventually had enough to just go out and buy a new Millermatic 180. I never looked back. 

-Trout


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## firebird (Sep 9, 2010)

Hi

Speaking to a mate of mine in the car body/chassis repair business today. He uses a mig for all his work but still has a cheap stick welder for the odd job. He has drilled extra vent holes in the casing and fitted an extra fan which he claims has dramatically improved the performance of the machine. Any thoughts on this???

Cheers

Rich


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## tel (Sep 9, 2010)

My stick welder was a relatively cheap Abel Arc air cooled job, 130 amps top, I've done none of that but I've thrown a lot of work at it over the years, including some pretty heavy stuff, and, apart from being on it's 4th electrode holder, it has given me no trouble at all. July 1976 to now is, I think, a fair test - still going as good as the day I bought it.


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## firebird (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi

It sounds as though an extra fan might improve things then. Problem is, if I buy a new unit I can't start modifying it or I will invalidate the warranty.

For the small amount of welding I anticipate doing it looks like I might bite the bullet and buy one of the cheaper welders. I'll have a look around and see what falls within the budget and come back to you.

Cheers

Rich


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## Troutsqueezer (Sep 11, 2010)

You know, I've been wondering about this fan business. Maybe the fan will keep the transformer cooler and keep the system from cycling down but hear me out: In my line of work we worry about junction temperatures. This is the area where the heat originates from and then spreads out into a heat sink or mother board. If this temperature is too high, the metal at that joint will fatigue faster than it ordinarily would as it heats up and cools down (powers up and down). It's the same process as when you bend a piece of metal back and forth numerous times to where it eventually breaks due to metal fatigue. It's the heating up and cooling down that breaks the metal, not your superhuman strength. When solid state components like transistors and IC's break, this is also usually the cause. 

I'm thinking you may be able keep the ambient temperature down inside your arc welder but too much heat at the source will shorten the life of the components, i.e. transformer. 

Just a theory.


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## Deanofid (Sep 11, 2010)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> It's the heating up and cooling down that breaks the metal, not your superhuman strength.



You sure know how to take the fire out of a guy, don'tcha Dennis? It's my manly strength, I tell you!

Really, I don't know about the things that Dennis mentioned, but I think if you want a welder
that welds longer straight periods, buy one rated for it!

Dean


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## firebird (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi

That makes sense, I'll keep away from the mods. I'm picking up on what Tel has said about his cheapo welder that its ok for what he doe's. My mate Julian also has a cheap welder that he has owned for over 25 years and still going strong. It welds what he wants on occasions he needs to weld. Now I'm not saying the weld is very pretty or that he could weld all day with it but it doe's what he needs to get done. I have paid heed to what some of the learned members have been saying and I think I understand about duty cycles etc. but I think I will have to go for one of the cheapo's for now to keep within my budget. John S has given me the links to a couple of used ones on e bay but they are collection only which is a problem for me. Finally there is a possibility that Santa Clause might be treating me to a welder so as long as it isn't too dear I think I might be on to a winner. ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Rich


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## Peter. (Sep 12, 2010)

My brother in law's cheap arc welder would thermal-trip after a couple of minutes of welding until I opened the case and fitted a 5" computer fan in there on the louvred end-panel, after that it never went off again.


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## radfordc (Sep 12, 2010)

I received my cheap HF Dual MIG welder and completed my first project today. I installed elevated standoffs for the tail lights on my old boat trailer. Not the prettiest welds but they are definitely stuck on there good. The welder works well and does what it's supposed to.


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## firebird (Sep 13, 2010)

Hi

I found this one that sounds ok and falls within budget.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-160n-easi-arc-welder

Just to make sure I e mailed their technical dept and asked if it would run off a standard 13 amp supply. This is their answer.

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your email; the 160N arc welder does require a 230volt single phase but must be 20amps and cannot operate off a 13amp socket.

Hmmmmmmmm. Back to the drawing board.

Cheers

Rich


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## Peter. (Sep 13, 2010)

Rich it might blow the fuse at full power but my brother in law uses the more powerful Clarke 235 on a standard 3-pin without any problems. If you're running off an extension lead make sure it's a hefty one and not a skinny wind-up lead.

A good place to look is the uk mig welding forum www.mig-welding.co.uk, they are very beginner-friendly.


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 13, 2010)

I think this is one are where the UK folks Have a bit of and advantage. US house voltage is mostly 115 volt . Two 115 lines come into the house and each feeds 1/2 of the breaker box. But you can set up a 230 line for heavy duty use like electric ranges electric water heaters and of course welders etc. My little wire feed runs off a 115v 20 amp line. With a IIRC 12 ga extension cord. 
Tin


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## krv3000 (Sep 13, 2010)

HI I had to say sumthing I have a MiG welder and a arc welder both are from B.O.C and are More than capable of downing all the welding i need the MiG is the same type sold by snap on and i have seen a lot of MiG,s under different brand names the same


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## radfordc (Sep 13, 2010)

I bought a heavy duty 50' extension cord and a dryer plug and wired it to the welder. I unplug the dryer in the utility room and plug in the welder. The cord reaches through the garage to the driveway.


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## firebird (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi

So am I right in thinking that it will run off the 13 amp supply then.??

Cheers

Rich


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## Jasonb (Sep 14, 2010)

The supply is more than 13amps but if you have a 13amp plugtop on it you will be limited by that size fuse which may blow at the higer power settings on the machine. You could have a 16 or 20 amp socket fitted, best on its own line from your CU with a suitable breaker that won't trip too soon. There are a coupel of other ways to run them from a standard ring main but not to be recommended 

Jason


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## John S (Sep 14, 2010)

Short answer, yes.

Be interesting to see what the duty cycle of this one is before you jump.

John S.


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## John S (Sep 15, 2010)

Any electrical appliance will only pull the power it needs, not the max power.

We don't have different rated circuits here in the UK, we have ring mains and fused plugs on appliances so we can run a 1 amp soldering iron in a double plug and run a 13 amp welder on the other.

Remember we are also running 240 volt here so our 13 amp plugs are equivalent to a 26 amp supply on your 110 volt system.

I know it will work because I have had to do it at times when off site. You just won't be able to use max power.

John S


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## firebird (Sep 25, 2010)

Hi

Thanks to a nod from John Stevenson I bought one of these, at the price just too good to miss. I haven't had the time to play with it yet but Julian bought one as well and he said it works fine.





Turbo Fan Cooled Arc Welder 
£34. 99 each * 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The perfect combination for high performance and versatility. This machine has fully adjustable amperage control, wheels and a handle enabling total portability. 

Comprehensive kit includes: hand-held face shield, electrode holder, earth clamp, power leads, chipping hammer/wire brush, electrode starter pack (2 x 1.6mm, 2 x 2.0mm, 2 x 2.5mm, 2 x 3.2mm, 2 x 4mm) 
Uses 1.6mm-4.0mm diameter electrodes 
Thermal overload protection 
Adjustable welding current range: 55-160 amps 

Cheers

Rich


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 25, 2010)

glad you found something you like wow for about $ 50 I would set that shield aside for onlookers and get a quick shade auto darkening type shield also get an honest chipping hammer and wire brush . Use the one with the kit till it breaks or wears out . 
55 -160 amp is a nice range for a hobby welder. 
Happy rod sticking welding.
Tin


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## Noitoen (Sep 26, 2010)

All you have to do now is to install a couple of gears and a wiper motor to the control knob and then you have remote control power adjustment "on the fly". :big: :big: :big:


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