# Milling machine or vertical slide for the lathe, which should I buy?



## Kaleb (Oct 10, 2011)

I've been sensing how useful milling can be in building engines, so I'm contemplating tooling up for milling. The question is, which route should I take? The vertical slide has the advantage of being cheaper, but I don't think it would be quite as good as having an actual mill. What are your thoughts on the issue?


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## doubletop (Oct 10, 2011)

Kaleb

The obvious question is "what are you planning to make". When you've answered that then think what you are going to do once you've made it.

Having never done a thing since school I made my first wobbler 18 months ago (on a vertical slide). Now I'm seriously deciding between a 5" guage or 7 1/4" guage loco as a longer term project, I'd never comtemplate trying to do that on a vertical slide (no doubt somebody has done it though)

Pete


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## Blogwitch (Oct 10, 2011)

I can only tell you my thoughts about them, other people might have totally different views.

Even though a vertical slide is cheaper, and a lot of fantastic pieces have been made using them, unless you are rather skilled in that use, you might find yourself foundering when coming to machine even some basic shapes.

At one time, vertical slides were the ONLY way of doing milling, as mills were just too expensive for the average shop. But things have changed a lot since those days, and if you are lucky enough, you can come across some good second hand mills that come with the basic tooling included, where someone is going to a larger size, or just giving up because machining wasn't for them. If it was me buying my first mill, that would be, and was the way I went.

If buying from new, tooling to use on the mill will come to approximately 30% to 50% of the mill cost extra on top, and that needs to be factored into the overall costs involved.

Here in the UK, lots of people used vertical slides when they first started out, but now they are languishing, gathering dust, under thousands of workbenches (the vertical slides, not the people). Rof}

I gave mine away many years ago to someone who was just starting out, but he only ever managed to do very basic stuff with it, and eventually bought himself a small mill, second hand from someone I put him in contact with. I suppose that slide is now sitting under someone else's bench by now.

John


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## Mainer (Oct 10, 2011)

Unless you cannot, by any possible means including taking out a second mortgage on your house, afford a milling machine...buy a milling machine. A vertical slide is severely limited in capacity, both in X-Y travel and in rigidity. I think you will get frustrated in short order, and this hobby is supposed to be fun. You will get frustrated enough at times, anyway. No sense in adding another reason to be peeved.

I essentially echo what Bogstandard said. 

I do have a vertical slide, and I may get it out about once every two or three years to do some odd little machining bit that the additional degrees of freedom of motion available with the v/s make easier to accomplish. But otherwise I never use it, and can't imagine depending entirely on a v/s for machining operations.


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## picclock (Oct 10, 2011)

FWIW I'm with Bogstandard and Mainer. I first bought a lathe thinking I could do everything on it. Then I bought a milling machine after some frustrating sessions with a cross slide vice and a pillar drill. Now I find I tend to do more work on the milling machine than I do on the lathe. To get parts to a good and accurate finish requires serious rigidity in the setup, in which other milling methods, such as the vertical slide option come out a very poor second. The other benefit of a mill is ease of operation. And when you have one you will find that you really need that ER32 collet chuck to hold those endmills that you need. And you will spot those smart curves that you can't do without and end up with a rotary table, and that old knackered vice you were planning to use will need replacing. So as Bogstandard said the tooling certainly adds up

Best mod I ever did to the mill was to fit cheapo chinese DRO's on X and Y axis, giving really good accuracy at a super budget price. 

So for my two cents get a mill, the only regret you will have is that you didn't get a better larger one.

Best Regards

picclock

Did I mention that after you have all that tooling you'll be producing so much that the powered bandsaw will end up number 1 on the xmas list just so you can feed the all consuming mill ;D


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## 1Kenny (Oct 10, 2011)

Got a vertical slide several years ago, its a machine tool so I had to have it. I cleaned, oiled and painted it all up. Never have put it on a lathe, the miil makes sure it has a place of honor under the bench. 

Kenny


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## krv3000 (Oct 10, 2011)

I wood love a mill but ther way over my buget


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## MachineTom (Oct 10, 2011)

Another vote for what bogs and others have said. If you have some space get a full size mill. A used BP or clone is about the same $$ as a new mini, but the work can be work is so much more. I have a lathe that can with a vertical slide, never have used it.


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## Catminer (Oct 10, 2011)

Milling machine, as large as you can, you will find so many uses.
Peter


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## bearcar1 (Oct 10, 2011)

There has been some terrific work done using the milling attachment on a lathe and I marvel at the operators tenacity and patience in using such a tool. I can see that if that is the only thing that one has available to them or for the occasional 'only reasonable way' of performing a particular step usage these tools are a must have. However, given a choice in the matter, a vertical mill is the way to go. The available tooling would be the driving factor in terms of size. A huge 52" mill purchased for pennies does no good if it requires oddball tooling that is scarce or expensive by nature. The 'X*' series of mills are fine for most modelers, I prefer the BP machines myself but it is all irrelevant if one can not afford these toys. 

BC1
Jim


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## lazylathe (Oct 10, 2011)

Not too sure of your location but check the for sale ads in your area.

In Canada we have Kijiji and i had a quick look on there and some of the Bridgeport style machines start at $1400.

Also depends on where the machine is going to live!
Mine are in the basement and getting such a large machine down there is a MAJOR undertaking!
A smaller mini-mill is what i had to go for!

I would go for the mill any time over a milling side!
I would like to have one for my lathe but it would just be another accessory that see very little use...

Andrew


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## cfellows (Oct 10, 2011)

To reenforce what Bogs and others have said, a milling machine is way more useful, but, and this is a big but, without the additional tooling, the mill is useless. At minimum you'll need something to hold the work, some cutting tools such as fly cutters and end mills, and tooling to hold the cutters. In my opinion, mills which have an R8 spindle are better. A milling vice is a good choice for holding most work. A drill chuck works good enough for most tool holding as long as you can live with a little runout and you understand the potential problem of tool creep. That's where the end mill slowly slips out of the chuck if you trying to cut too much in a pass. There's a lot more tooling that would be useful, but you can do a lot with a vise, a drill chuck, and a few end mills.

Chuck


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## kvom (Oct 10, 2011)

Agree with all the above, except using a drill chuck for milling (sorry Chuck). Collets are the way to go.


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## cfellows (Oct 10, 2011)

kvom  said:
			
		

> Agree with all the above, except using a drill chuck for milling (sorry Chuck). Collets are the way to go.



I don't disagree that collets and other types of tool holders are superior to a drill chuck. However, I've used a drill chuck successfully for many types of end mills, flycutters, and even boring heads. And I'll be the first to admit that they have caused me trouble from time to time. However, for people on a budget, drill chucks will get the job done until better tool holders can be afforded.

Respectfully... Chuck


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## kvom (Oct 10, 2011)

I think for someone new to milling the danger, in addition to the tool slipping a bit, is damaging the drill chuck jaws with a too-forceful feed.


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## pete (Oct 11, 2011)

Buy both if you can. There are a few jobs like working on the ends of long bar stock that your normal vertical mill would take a long time to set up even if that vertical mill is able to use the head in a horizontal position. Now if you were to buy a mill with both vertical and horizontal capabilitys then there's no need for a lathe milling attachment.

As far as moving a mill into a basement? That's not really all that hard. Their built and designed to be pulled apart. If you can manage to walk down there you can move a mill there given some thought and a bit of leverage. Your brain is the most powerful tool you'll ever own. But I'll admit my past work experience gives me a slight advantage.

Sorry Chuck, I just can't agree using a drill chuck while milling. Over and above the personal danger there's equipment damage that to me just doesn't make it worth while. Yeah it can work but you can buy a few collets for pretty low money just to get going. I have tried it and wasn't too impressed even with really light cuts.

Pete


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## robcas631 (Oct 11, 2011)

Kaleb there are machines which combine milling and lathe. What machine do you own now?


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## Mainer (Oct 12, 2011)

I'll add to the chorus of No's who say don't hold an end mill in a drill chuck. The side load, coupled with the rotation and downward pull of cutting, can walk the drill chuck off its taper. 

As for a 3-in-1 machine, it is an option, I suppose, but IMO not a desirable one. I'd make the extra effort to get separate machines.


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## steamboatmodel (Oct 12, 2011)

robcas631  said:
			
		

> Kaleb there are machines which combine milling and lathe. What machine do you own now?


There are those who love the combined mill, lathe machines, but I would rather have separate machines.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Swede (Oct 12, 2011)

A knee mill is a thing of beauty and joy forever! 

I started with a 3:1 machine maybe 20 years ago. The lathe part was OK, the mill was a sad joke. Eventually I knew I'd need a mill for the stuff I wanted to do. Shopping for mills, I compared mill-drills with larger knee mills, and remembering the horrors of no Z axis on the 3:1 machine, I realized adequate Z is just as (maybe more) important than table size. I ended up with a 8 X 36 baby Bridgeport. Only once have I lacked for table size and X, Y travel, but Z still has issues on occasion, although most setups can be worked around.

Summary - look for as much mass as you can afford, and if you can spend 35% more to get a knee mill rather than a mill-drill, do it.


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 12, 2011)

Kaleb:
the smaller the lathe you have the more limited a verticle slide is . IMHO unless you have a 10 to 12 in swing lathe go for a mill. 
IIRC your lathe is an c-0 ?
Tin


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## Mainer (Oct 13, 2011)

If you end up buying a vertical slide despite our wise counsel :big: at least get one that mounts directly to the cross slide. IMO the ones that mount on top of the compound are so non-rigid as to be virtually unusable. Cast iron is amazingly rubbery when one is concerned about thousandths of an inch and depending on rigidity of a setup to achieve it.


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## peatoluser (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, to add my two cents worth to the debate, I don't have a mill only a lathe (a tiag) and consequently use it for all my milling. I do have the vertical slide but very rearly use it. Back lash on the vertical axis and rigidity of set up generaly mean it's quite dificult to get decent finish or hold a tight tolerance (angular as well as linear).
So I now use spacer blocks or shop made angle plates that I can bolt directly to the cross slide. although I can only mill in two axis (cross slide and carriage travel ) and so have to plan the work carefully, it's still better than the vertical slide.
take the advice, if you can afford a mill, buy one. I'm certainly saving up for one.

yours 
peter


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## steamer (Oct 13, 2011)

One of the very few cases where it makes sense to use a vertical slide in a lathe is while cutting the leaves (the teeth) on clock wheels. Generally, the OD and ID are turned on a glue chuck, and then without disturbing the part the wheel cutting spindle is mounted to the cross-slide and the teeth are cut using the lathe headstock as a dividing head.

The reason for this is that the part will never be as concentric as it is right after the OD and ID are finished...therefore it makes sense to do it that way, and that is the MO used through the ages.

There are very few other reasons where the lathe milling slide makes any sense over a Mill. IMHO.

As stated, the rigidity of the set up is terrible unless the lathe is rugged.

Dave


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## robcas631 (Oct 16, 2011)

I own a mini metal lathe 7 x 12 and for the longest time I could not figure out how to mill on it. I was going to buy the mill attachment but could not afford it. Regardless, I started a project and tried to save money for a mini mill in order to finish the rest of it. I bought milling maching clamps in preparation for my new mill. Owning a home made that an impossible dream. I thought of many ways and in the process I invented a new clamping system. That is yet to be addressed.

Recently, I found that you can mill and do so accurately on a metal lathe. So I looked in my shop for HSS tools bits. I was skeptical yet surprised to know just how many HSS there are. Yet I wondered how I could make other shapes? My work is mostly composed of brass. 

I removed the tool post. I used the clamps that I bought for a mill and mounted pieces. I wanted a flat surface so I looked all over my shop and found that a simple flat wood drill bit might do. Of course I was hesitant. But I had lots of brass to work with. So I ground off the tip and then beveled the edges so that one edge would strike the piece. Thus creating a flat surface. I used some shims where the parts I grinded to fit did not work and oped a new aspect to using a metal lathe. It worked and not half arse either!

Now I am confident that I can create a great many things. In fact this past week I have completed a lot of work. 

If you need to see some of my work kindly let me know.

Peace, Rob


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## AndyB (Oct 16, 2011)

Hi all,

You have what you can afford. I mill in the lathe because I have to but from what I read about modern small milling machines I will continue to put up with any shortcomings.

I have got a Myford swivelling vertical slide that came to me in the way that Bogs describes and checking on the travel of small mills, I am only limited on travel one way.

I keep looking for small mills in my price range and have figured that a hand shaper would be better suited to my purpose.

We live in a technological age and have all the gadgets...this is what my great grandfather would have done... (this was completed on a treadled Drummond Roundbed A type, my great grandfather's is a B type)







Does it answer the question? That is for you to decide.

Andy


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## John Hill (Oct 16, 2011)

I started with a lathe and quite soon after bought a vertical slide and I was fortunate to find a really sturdy one. Milling with the vertical slide was possible but it did have its limitations.

Not so long after I bought a mill, a knee type vertical mill and pushed the vertical slide to the back of the cupboard, but it didnt stay there.

I used it only last week to do a deep cylinder boring task with the workpiece on the vertical slide and a long boring bar supported by the chuck and the tail stock, this would have been quite difficult on the mill.


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## steamer (Oct 16, 2011)

Yes, if money is an issue, sure. A milling slide is far better than no milling slide.

They have they're limitations with regards to rigidity.  Good machinists are always better than they're equipment.

But that doesn't mean good machinists are masochistic either.

If a mill is an option.....financially.....go for it.

Dave


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