# 8 Tool rotary Turret.



## xpylonracer (Jul 29, 2012)

Started this a few weeks ago, intend to use it on a Denford Orac cnc lathe, manually at first but may motorise later.
Maximum size of square tools is 13mm or 1/2", round tools will be up to 10mm or 3/8" diameter.

Rgds, Emgee


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## Herbiev (Jul 29, 2012)

Hi Emgee. Thanks for sharing and great photos. It looks like a very well designed time saving devise. Where did you get the plans as I would like to build one also. Your standard of work is simply superb


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## Don1966 (Jul 29, 2012)

That is some superb work, nice tool addition also. 

Don


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## xpylonracer (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi Herbie

Plans of the Toolchanger are on the Yahoo Emco lathes Group, in case you aren't a member there and save you the trouble have uploaded 2 PDF files below. You will obviously have to change some dimensions to get the tool at the  correct height for your lathe.
My next job is to cut some steel plate for the Toolplate so will post again when this is cut.

Rgds, Emgee 

View attachment 8 Tool turret plate.pdf


View attachment Tool changer 8 tool.pdf


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## Herbiev (Jul 30, 2012)

Emgee. Thanks very much for going to the trouble of posting the plans. Very much appreciated and I think several other members will also be interested in making one.


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## kvom (Jul 30, 2012)

Looking at your pics, I imagine that both the ratchet wheel and the lengths of the pawls need to be very precise both for repeatability and to keep the turret from moving while cutting.  With a stepper motor to help holding that would be less of a problem, but I wonder how rigid it will be in manual mode.

Your work looks first rate in any case.


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## xpylonracer (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi KVOM

The pawl plates are slightly shorter than needed to allow for an adjusting screw to bear on the end so fine adjustment can be made to bring the tool slot to correct height, once set it should remain in position. 
The load on the plates is when the spindle lock is off and the tool plate revolved to another position, the toolplate is turned back to the plate and the spindle lock applied, although the cutting action of the tool is trying to push the pawl into the plate the force on the plate is reduced by the spindle lock.

You are thinking where is the lock, sorry it does not show so well in the pictures,  if you look at the shot where the main block is being bored, the 1/2" brass rod being held in position by a single bolt clamp acts as the spindle lock when completed, it is partly in the bore so has a segment cut that matches the spindle OD, this is cut at the centre and acts as the locking mechanism, I will post another picture to show the detail. This type of locking arrangement works very well and releases without problems when the locking nut/screw is released. This is equal to and likely a more positive lock than a stepper/DC motor reversing at less than full rated voltage.
Thanks for your interest.
Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Jul 30, 2012)

PDF file at bottom showing spindle lock detail. Best viewed with Adobe Reader 9 or better, use the "activate" button when it opens and then you can manoeuvre the model around with the mouse to view all sides. The brass rod is shown sectioned for clarity. 

View attachment Shaft locking detail.pdf


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## xpylonracer (Aug 1, 2012)

Just added another PDF showing a model of the Turret, included some tools but nothing in the 10mm round sockets yet.
Same as before use Adobe 9 or better and use the "activate" feature to manipulate the model around with the mouse, be patient when it loads as may take 30 secs or so.
Rgds, Emgee 

View attachment 8 Position manual Tool Turret.pdf


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## xpylonracer (Aug 4, 2012)

Started on the Toolplate, had to mount the plate on a rotary table so it could be accurately turned through 180 degrees, my mill didn't have sufficient Y axis travel for the total profile dimension. Pictures below show 1st cuts and then table turned for the 2nd profiling cuts using a 6mm 4f carbide cutter, used mist and enough air to keep the slot clear of chips. Also shown are 2 of the 4 tool slots, used 12mm cutter for these.


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## xpylonracer (Aug 6, 2012)

Square Tool fixings now drilled and tapped for M6 cone end grub screws, leaving the round tool bores to be done in situ on the lathe, this should ensure all are at correct centre height when indexed. Hole at back bored to suit spindle end, started assembly.


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## xpylonracer (Aug 7, 2012)

Rotary table has 3/4" centre hole, spigot is 3/4" with a 1/4" diameter end to locate a hole reamed in the plate before fixing to the table. Table centred to mill spindle before fixing plate down to table. The brown on the table is stain from the plywood packing used, leached out from use of coolant.


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## xpylonracer (Aug 10, 2012)

Toolplate now finished, fitted the No.1 tool in place and centred the cutting tip, did some trial cuts on a piece of EN8 which were OK then checked with square toolsteel in the other square slots that they also were on centre, tightened off both pawl adjusters to maintain position.
Used a centre drill and then 5mm and 9.5mm drills aiming to ream the bores 10mm for round tools. It was visually obvious that the drills had not remained on centre so had to use a 12mm milling cutter to bring the holes to truth, then reamed  to suit 1/2" tooling.
Used a flap disc to clean the scale and rust off the plate, finished with some oil base matt black to save the plate corroding/rusting, would be better if chemically blackened but I don't have any chemicals in stock and they are not as low cost as paint from stock !!!!


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## xpylonracer (Aug 19, 2012)

First job for the turret was to make the Tool collets for the 4 round tools, used 1 for a centre drill and another for a 10mm boring bar, 2 spares left undrilled and not slit. Tool rigidity appears to be OK, turned and parted without problems as you would expect with brass, will confirm again later when I have some tough steel to turn.


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## xpylonracer (Sep 1, 2012)

Quick update on use. Normal turning of tough steel did not cause any problems for the turret, using the 1/2" round sockets for tools does need some thought to prevent colliding with the chuck when in use. If a 3" chuck was used there would not be the same problem, current chuck fitted is 4" diameter. More pictures to follow.
Emgee


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## lsteele (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi Xpylonracer,

It looks like you've modified the tool changer from the original drawings. Do you have drawings or better still CAD models for your version?

Thanks,

Luke


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## xpylonracer (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi Luke

Toolplate is almost the same as plans, had to modify the block, spindle pawl etc to suit my lathe cross slide to centre height, also to use materials I had in stock such as Cast ally block, 1" Stainless for shaft, EN8 1.75" diameter for pawl, phosphor bronze bushes. The toolplate is only 20mm thick, another stock piece, I did have to buy some socket caps and grubscrews. I have some drawings but dimensions may need changing to suit your lathe centre height, I will look these up and post ASAP.

Rgds, Emgee


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## lsteele (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi Emgee,

Actually I have an Orac too - correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that's what you're using this on?

The drawings or anything else you have would be great.

Was the tool changer in the drawings you posted designed for a standard Emco compact 8? I'm just wondering if you have any clearance issues with the tool plate as designed.

Thanks,

Luke


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## xpylonracer (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Luke
Some files attached showing main dimensions, these suited my Orac without too much toolplate rotational adjustment, then locked off to retain repeatability when indexing turret.
Only clearance issue is as stated earlier, round tools fouling the chuck if not planned correctly. This could be overcome to some extent by increasing the diameter of the toolplate, thereby spacing the tools further apart and at greater diameter than the chuck, only if the jaws don't extend from the chuck increasing the OD.
Unable to upload DRG files so converted to jpg, are you in UK ?
Rgds, Emgee


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## lsteele (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Emgee,

Great, thanks.

Yes, I'm in the UK - London.

Do you have the drawings for the body that houses the bearings etc? What kind of bearings did you use?

Is there any chance you could upload a zip file with the original CAD models? (zip files are permitted as attachments apparently).

Thanks again,

Luke


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## xpylonracer (Sep 20, 2012)

Hi Luke
The main body end view is shown as Turret Block End view. 
Bearings used are Phosphor bronze, 2 x 25mm long (1 each end) bored to suit spindle when fitted to the block, oil holes at top blanked with 6mm screws.
A couple more pictures to show clearance over apron and a shortened boring tool fitted.
Will see if I can sort the Zip upload.
Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi Luke

Forgot to say original design/plans as used on the Emco PC50 lathe, this had an 80mm chuck so tool collision was less of a problem, my Orac has a 100mm diameter chuck fitted at present hence problems as described earlier.

Rgds, Emgee


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## lsteele (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi Emgee,

Thanks for all the pictures and info - it's all very helpful.

I'm just wondering if you know how different the tool plate design you've used is from the original Orac toolchanger? Basically I just want to build something which will be as versatile as possible. And obviously being lazy and time-limited it's great for me if I can learn as much as possible from what you've done and other existing designs!

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, is there any possibility getting your original CAD models? This would be really handy since I intend to model the whole tool changer in CAD anyway - I can start off with your models and modify them to my needs.

Thanks,

Luke


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## xpylonracer (Sep 28, 2012)

Hi Luke
Latest model I have of the main block in PDF format, open with Adobe 9 or better, use the activate feature to view the model from any direction, be patient it may take a while to open. 

View attachment 8 Position Turret Block.pdf


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## xpylonracer (Nov 22, 2012)

First batch of 10 parts made with the Turret tools, 41mm OD aluminium bored 24 diam x 12mm depth, 1st op for a model engine backplate.


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## xpylonracer (Dec 3, 2012)

First there were ten but now 12, 2nd lathe operation done.
This was turn down to 29mm diameter and face end to give correct length, (this spigot fits in the crankcase) turn groove for "O" ring and then bore the 7mm radiused bowl. Rest of the work to complete  is done on the milling machine, flange left at end is 2mm thick.


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## DICKEYBIRD (Mar 12, 2013)

Hi Emgee, just got my forum access working again and had to comment on your excellent thread.  You've done a fantastic job of building your TC and documenting it as well.  You must either be "in the business" (machining) or have been at a long time. Kudos to to you!

Do you run your ORAC with the original controls or have you updated it?  If updated, Mach3, LinuxCNC or??

I have an ORAC I bought with no electronics at all and am getting pretty close to being finished with it.  It has a hodge-podge of electrics controlled by Mach3 and is working pretty well.  I just finished installing a new KBCC-125R DC motor drive with on-board reversing to control the 3/4 hp Baldor motor.  The motor was way too big to go in the original location so it's mounted on the back side and seems to have plenty of "grunt."

I'd love to make a TC like yours but don't have the materials, the experience and most of all the gumption.  I added a lengthened tool plate on top of the carriage with 2 wedge-type AXA QCTP's; one front, one rear.  Spindle reversing should make tooling choice a bit easier on the rear post.  Hopefully I can work my way through Mach's Tool Table setup and will be able to use 2 tools at once without crashing anything.

All the best
Milton in Collierville, TN  USA

ps: Post some more pics of what you're making with yours!


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## xpylonracer (Mar 13, 2013)

Hi Milton

Thanks for the compliments, I have never had training with lathe or mill machine work, I am retired from electrical contracting in industrial and commercial buildings, also did some domestic house wiring on new builds for several years.
Used to fly R/C model airplanes, racing them round a triangular shaped course for 10 laps which was 4km distance, the engines used in the planes are 2 stroke glow plug ignition, those I used were rear exhaust and rear induction, no carb as motors run full bore for the duration of the race, landings were done dead engine. My first venture into machining was with a Portass lathe to make various parts for the racing engines, used a vertical slide on the lathe for a few years for milling and eventually bought a  big old Victoria U1 universal mill, horizontal, vertical and slotting was possible with that machine. Changed to a Myford 7 and then to a Colchester Bantam which I still have but it doesn't get much use as I have an Emco Compact 5 cnc lathe, a Denford Orac cnc lathe and an Emco F1 cnc milling machine, Both Emco machines are used as original prgramming method which suits my use, either can have a simple program entered and running in less time than my computer takes to be  ready to work.!!
I am using the Orac in the original form, DOS based programming or manually entering the G & M codes needed, I do have a computer connection with the machine for loading or saving programs, this works OK for me as I only use for a hobby. I am still setting tool offsets in the program as I have a job that has 3 tools working, will post some pics of this when completed.
If you are considering making a Turret I would advise you to increase the diameter so giving greater clearance of the 4" chuck and any projecting jaws, other than that the turret is a real bonus.

Regards from the UK, Emgee


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## DICKEYBIRD (Mar 13, 2013)

xpylonracer said:


> Used to fly R/C model airplanes, racing them round a triangular shaped course for 10 laps which was 4km distance, the engines used in the planes are 2 stroke glow plug ignition, those I used were rear exhaust and rear induction, no carb as motors run full bore for the duration of the race, landings were done dead engine.


Ahh, FAI pylon racing, 6.5cc engines right?  Well familar with that.

Haven't done any FAI myself but raced in AMA pylon races back in the 80's; Q500 mostly.  Our club hosted several types of racing but we had the most fun with Q500 Scat Cat airframes with max. engine size .28, club supplied fuel & props.  We had a ball and it was cheap.  I got some of the first Webra Speed .28 ABC engines and had fun blowing away the "shaker" OS .28 FSR's with their iron pistons.  Sorry for the digression.  Us ol' grandpa's like to tell our war stories, eh?

I'll probably never have a toolchanger on my ORAC unless I steal one on ebay (which isn't likely) so I'll have to make do with my twin QCTP system.  Here's a link to a thread with some of the conversion process and pictures over on the Mach forum.  Great guys there as well!

Cheers!

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,22258.0.html


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## xpylonracer (Mar 14, 2013)

Hi Milton

Some more Denford and other engineering bits are pictured at the following link to my Photobucket. http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s410/xpylonracer/

Thanks for the heads up to the Mach forum.

Regards, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Mar 24, 2013)

Hi All
Just completed the milling work on the backplates, front and back of plates shown for clarity.


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## DICKEYBIRD (Mar 26, 2013)

Looks great Emgee!  I assume you're CNC milling the flange contour and CNC engraving the serial numbers?  What sort of beast are you producing?  What CAM proggie are you using to generate the G-code?

Keep the piccies a'comin'!;D


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## xpylonracer (Mar 26, 2013)

Hi Milton

The backplates fit into a current production engine used for F3D racing, I only make the backplate as an add on for those that want to try something different. From reports received over a 4 year period less chance of burning a hole in the piston crown is the biggest advantage, this could be due to the angled top port cooling the inside of the piston and pin or with more crankcase volume the fuel control needle is slightly easier to set correctly so less likely to have a lean run. Some people even report better power output but this is difficult to prove unless a radar speed gun is used.
Yes all CNC milled but machine is programmed with G & M codes, I write the programs in the MFI editor, simulate to check toolpaths and download to the mill via computer link. I don't have the luxury of CAM or any machine capable of running the program it would produce, I'm only 1 step from turning handles !!!!
Milling machine is Emco F1 CNC, will add some pictures of machine and tooling FYI
If you go here http://www.mikesfreeinterface.com and the ABOUT/SCREENSHOTS you can see some code.

Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Mar 29, 2013)

Few shots of tooling used for the backplates, note set for the ports is different to the rear face tooling.


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## DICKEYBIRD (Mar 30, 2013)

Most don't realize the amount of tooling & separate operations that go into making something relatively simple looking!

With all that tooling and labor expended, those backplates must be worth about £500 eh?


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## xpylonracer (Mar 31, 2013)

Hi Milton

Yep, 2 ops in the lathe chuck and then 2 different set-ups on the mill.

They are worth more than that but the modellers get a very fair deal from me so pay a good bit less !! 

Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Sep 29, 2013)

Tool turret has !0,000 hits and almost 500 plans downloaded, has anyone else built a working unit ?

Rgds, Emgee


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## Krutch (Oct 2, 2013)

I just downloaded your offerings. Will have to look and figure which lathe to make one for then dimension for it. May never get that done but at least I have something else I can't die until I do!


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## Kai87th (Oct 8, 2013)

Hi just wanted to say what a great job you have done here really nice work. I carn't belive you have done all this withought a cad or cam suit.
So amazing work.
I would like to have a go at one of these and to be a little cheeky do you by chance have drawing and sizes for the body etc I have allready downloaded the tool holder and other drawings you have posted but the main body has now sizes, I know it's a little cheaky but rather than try to re-invent there wheel so to speak I would be most greatfull for a set of drawings.

If you are in the UK I can put you in touch with a very good friend of mine who converts deford and other cnc machines to mach3. I first met him when I bough my machines from him already converted a star mill and a triac both denford he has 3 orac's at the moment waiting to convert so he knows what he is doing. and if you want any cad or cam solutions please pm me and I will help you with that.


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## xpylonracer (Oct 8, 2013)

There is an end view dimensioned drawing on an earlier page, just make the length to suit your cross slide.
Will post another more detailed drawing in a few days.


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## lsteele (Dec 19, 2013)

xpylonracer said:


> Tool turret has !0,000 hits and almost 500 plans downloaded, has anyone else built a working unit ?
> 
> Rgds, Emgee



Hi Emgee,

A belated reply to your post - yes, I built one this summer. I changed the design a bit but it's the same basic idea. Take a look at the attached pics. It's not finished yet unfortunately - thanks to rushing there's an alignment issue with the plate which holds the motor. I may have persuaded a friend to CNC me a replacement, but we'll see if it happens! And it doesn't have any control electronics yet - that's the next project. Not that there's any rush - I haven't got the stepper drivers for my Orac working yet!

-Luke


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## xpylonracer (Dec 20, 2013)

Hi Luke, what is the reason for machining a wide toolslot and then making a filler piece or did I miss something ?

Rgds, Emgee


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## lsteele (Dec 20, 2013)

The tools are clamped into place by those pieces with the two holes. Each one has a 5deg slope on one side, and the toolplate has a 5 deg slope on the matching side. Two socket head screws go into the holes, and when you tighten them they clamp the tool in place.


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## xpylonracer (Dec 28, 2013)

Just uploaded some videos of my Tool Turret in action cutting a simple program, the videos are to help new owners of these old machines with cnc programming methods and use of the control pad/s.
"Denford Orac Tutor 3" is the video showing program cuts taking place, link below.

http://youtu.be/-devlAkDiw0

Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi All
Turret in use on video with facing, turning, inside and outside radius, taper, threading and boring, all on 1 video. Must fit a greater nose rad tool for the taper cuts !!!!!

http://youtu.be/aUbmiMLHLD0

Rgds, Emgee


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## xpylonracer (Jul 26, 2014)

Just did a video showing the turret working, also attached some shots of the tool arrangement. This set-up works fine with a 3" chuck fitted, all tools clear the chuck and slight protrusion of jaws over the 3" diameter.

http://youtu.be/IfYLgENFvIk


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## xpylonracer (Jul 27, 2014)

Pictures of tools in use for the video.


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## xpylonracer (Oct 5, 2015)

Now with 30,000 hits and over 1,000 PDF plans downloaded has anyone built the Turret ?
Emgee.


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## rubes (Oct 18, 2015)

xpylonracer said:


> Now with 30,000 hits and over 1,000 PDF plans downloaded has anyone built the Turret ?
> Emgee.



I just recently found this thread, and was one of the 1000. Unfortunately I am way too slow in my projects, so no I have not built this yet. currently tweaking the dimensions to fit my lathe, that also is not finished yet. But I think this is a pretty cool design.


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## xpylonracer (Sep 18, 2017)

Hi Rubes

Not my design but it is based on the tool turret fitted on the later Emco small lathes, dimensions shown suit a 80mm chuck, if running a 100mm chuck best increase the diameter of the toolplate to avoid tool clashes with the chuck, especially if the jaws extend beyond chuck diameter.

xpylonracer


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