# vernier calipers scare me



## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

But I might learn if this caliper was as accurate as they say. ETALON 13" CALIPER. MADE IN SWITZERLAND!
It looks like a dang fine tool and I'm tired of chips and coolant ruining my calipers. Is this worth buying at this price?  And will it serve me well?
They want $125 for it


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

This is the caliper.


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## kf2qd (Nov 17, 2013)

Not a bad price for a quality tool. Are you using this instead of mics? or for measuring larger parts? If you are having problems with dial calipers - are you buying new or used? They do wear out and for many operations I use a cheap dial or digital and when I get close to finish I use my mics. (I do have mics from 0" - 6") because sometimes the mics are just too bulky for making measurements while roughing. If your calipers are breaking because of mis-use then may you need to learn some new habits. (Like I need to learn to clean up when I finish so I can find the tools I was using for then next project that comes up...) I have worn out several cheap calipers, but I have gotten my moneys worth out of them so I didn't feel thaey owed me anything. Maybe if I had treated them like they were of more value they might have lasted longer.


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## dave-in-england (Nov 17, 2013)

.
The problem with those old-style "mechanical" verniers is that they are quite
difficult to handle and to read accurately down to 0.01 mm.

No one wants them any-more.
This one in the picture is way over priced for something the owner does not want any more.
He has probably bought himself a cheap digital vernier.


Why not buy a small digital vernier for $ 10 ?

These are super accurate and easy to read, instant conversion from Metric to Ancient English,
and large digits for easy reading.

Chip proof and generally water proof if you don't hold them directly under the coolant, they wipe dry.

I have a collection of these, they have lasted for years in a production machine shop.

My more expensive models, Mitutoyo, etc, have a feel of quality about them,
more rigid and a few more features, but these cheapo models are just as accurate.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0019O6OCO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 

OR

for a slightly better Mitutoyo model, at 10 x the price

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C0ZPNO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 


dave


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

My digital broke when I was changing the battery. One of the battery terminals broke off and I'm not good enough with electronics to fix it. The dial caliper got chips in the rack and hosed it. I keep my tools clean but things happen. I don't have that much money and even less to throw away on tools that break as easily as the ones I had broke. I'm very quickly learning the meaning of the phrase "can't afford to buy cheap tools" The dial caliper wasn't cheap.


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

So what kind of warranty do the higher end electronics come with?


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

I found an etalon black dial caliper 6" for $65


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## gbritnell (Nov 17, 2013)

Here's the thing with calipers, dial, digital or the old style vernier, they are only 'get close tools'. Let me explain. The outside jaws need to be completely square to whatever you are measuring and sometimes that's a problem due to machine setup. The inside jaws are almost useless. I have Starretts, Mitutoyos and Brown and Sharps and each of them are only within .002 on the inside measurements due to the jaw configuration. Actually the depth portion of the calipers is about the most consistent measuring part of these tools. Don't get me wrong, I do use them but for accurate measuring I use micrometers, either depth, outside or inside types. Once you get the feel for snap gauges the use of these along with mikes can give you the most accurate readings. 
As far as digital calipers go, I don't care what they advertise for accuracy, they just aren't that close. 
Vernier calipers or vernier tools of any type are 'old school'. That doesn't mean they aren't accurate. If you have good eyes they are within .001, or a good magnifying glass. 
Everyone has their favorite measuring tools but for dead on accuracy micrometers are about the best tool the average modeler can afford. 
gbritnell


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

So, let me get this straight, we're going for accuracy here okay well that's different. HA-HA. 
I did some figuring and for the cost of the vernier, I can get a 1"-6" set of micrometers, a good dial caliper and a set of telescoping bore gages.  I think that would give me the accuracy I need. 
Am I on the right track now?


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

But for an old school tool, you gotta admit they are awesome. I do like the fine tuning attachment.  But I think I'll pass. Etalon makes a model one step up from this one that has micrometer type anvils for the outside side. They're $250. But for a cool vernier I REALLY like the gear tooth caliper.


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## vascon2196 (Nov 17, 2013)

One of the biggest measuring mistakes of my career was done with one of those damn things. I was measuring the outside diameters of a crankshaft for a 60 ton punch press. Instead of recording the "outside" numbers I ended up recording the "inside" numbers so all of my measurements were SHORT by 0.100".

I have stayed clear of them since then.


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## Cogsy (Nov 17, 2013)

dave-in-england said:


> .
> Why not buy a small digital vernier for $ 10 ?
> 
> These are super accurate and easy to read, instant conversion from Metric to Ancient English,
> and large digits for easy reading.


 
I bought a set identical to these and mounted to the Z on my mill/drill for a poor mans DRO. They simply will not hold any sort of accuracy at all. For example, if I zero then slowly (or quickly, doesn't matter) feed the quill 2mm down, I will have a reading somewhere between 0.5mm and 95mm. They are very prone to just random jumps, positive or negative. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

Having said that, I did try and check them before I mounted them and they appeared to work fine, but as soon as they were on the mill they went haywire.


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 17, 2013)

I have one like this and have used it for probably 15 years. http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-craftsman-caliper-with-case-no-40161-made-in-germany-/181261980463 Not my listing and don't know whose it is. I like it because it has imperial and metric scales.


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm buying a dial caliper cause I really like them and a vernier for backup. I have had three or four digitals over the years and they just die. I like the verniers for the same reason engineers like slide rules. Accuracy and dependability. One moving part no electronics to break, no gears to jam. And hey, they make a magnetic magnifying lens for us old blind guys. 
I think these will be the last tools for a few months.


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## kd0afk (Nov 17, 2013)

dieselpilot said:


> I have one like this and have used it for probably 15 years. http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-craftsman-caliper-with-case-no-40161-made-in-germany-/181261980463 Not my listing and don't know whose it is. I like it because it has imperial and metric scales.



Speaking of Craftsman, haven't they just gone to crap? Wish I could just buy one of these in their store here in town. I couldn't even find a hacksaw blade at Sears the other day. Not even an empty hook.


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## Sshire (Nov 17, 2013)

As George said, they get you close. My Etalon 6" dial caliper is one beautiful piece of Swiss stainless steel. When I got the Etalon, I had looked at the Starrett (not made in Athol anymore. China only.) but plastic dial rings...
The Etalon (sometimes labelled Brown & Sharpe or Tesa) has a real metal dial ring, and thumb wheel. No thumb wheel on 6" Starretts anymore.


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## dave-in-england (Nov 17, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> So what kind of warranty do the higher end electronics come with?



With the Mitutoyo, you will get a year's warranty.
With the cheapy, you get a free battery or two  !


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 17, 2013)

The local Sears has good stock on tools. My father gave me this caliper. I have a Brown and Sharpe dial caliper, but I think it's time to get a digital. I have mics and bore gages for the critical stuff.


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## dave-in-england (Nov 17, 2013)

Cogsy said:


> I bought a set identical to these and mounted to the Z on my mill/drill for a poor mans DRO. They simply will not hold any sort of accuracy at all. For example, if I zero then slowly (or quickly, doesn't matter) feed the quill 2mm down, I will have a reading somewhere between 0.5mm and 95mm. They are very prone to just random jumps, positive or negative. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.
> 
> Having said that, I did try and check them before I mounted them and they appeared to work fine, but as soon as they were on the mill they went haywire.



Probably because they were not intended to be clamped to a milling machine 
The guide rails were being twisted out of alignment.


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## Swifty (Nov 17, 2013)

Funny enough, in the 70's we only had the genuine "vernier" calipers. We had to learn to read them and trust them, although we had micrometers for fine work. No digital readouts either, the best we had were "optical readouts", which worked on an engraved glass scale and a magnified viewing attachment that had a graduated thimble to get the final precision. Now I'm sounding like an old fart.

Paul.


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## kd0afk (Nov 18, 2013)

I couldn't wait till the end of the month. I ordered a set of six outside micrometers, a vernier and dial caliper and a set of telescopic bore gages.
The next things on my list are: depth micrometer set, a protractor, set of squares, set of calipers (dividers), starrett small bore gages and a eventually a grainy surface plate and a height gage. And before too long I'm going to need to recheck the level on my lathe. The person that helped me no longer has their level but grizzly has one for less than $100 and I haven't seen any outraged YouTube videos about them. Maybe one of secret Santa's elves will loan one to me for Christmas. 
Looking forward to the mail in the next two weeks. I'll do an update on my haul as it comes in. I might even do a cheezy haul video on YT.  
Thanks for the help guys.


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## Swifty (Nov 18, 2013)

The next best thing to buying new tools for my own use, is to see someone else buying theirs and enjoying them. The purchase price is soon forgotten and you will have many years to enjoy your purchases.

Paul.


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## kd0afk (Nov 18, 2013)

Swifty said:


> The next best thing to buying new tools for my own use, is to see someone else buying theirs and enjoying them. The purchase price is soon forgotten and you will have many years to enjoy your purchases.
> 
> Paul.


Might not eat every day next month but it will be worth it. I found out that shars has both calipers; the regular one and the one with fine tuning. I emailed them to see if they wouldn't send me the other one. I ordered off eBay but the fine adjust is in the catalog and not on eBay.


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## Wizard69 (Nov 18, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> Might not eat every day next month but it will be worth it. I found out that shars has both calipers; the regular one and the one with fine tuning. I emailed them to see if they wouldn't send me the other one. I ordered off eBay but the fine adjust is in the catalog and not on eBay.



You asked at the beginning will they serve you well?    There is a simple answer to that question, how's your eye sight and what's your expectation for your eyesight ten years from now.   That might not be the selection parameter you have in mind, but let me tell you squinting or looking for a magnifier gets old too.     Now some are blessed with better eye sight than others in old age maybe this isn't an issue for you.   I'm personally taking a two pronged approach to instruments.     I buy used tools when the opportunity arises of any type and have my eyes on the purchase of a couple of digital micrometers when I can.   I already have digital calipers and wouldn't give them up for anything.  

As far as batteries go you can get solar powered calipers that don't need batteries.  I have a pair at work that are very old and never had a problem with them.   The cheaper calipers are a problem quality wise so avoid those known to be an issue.   

As far as accuracy goes I think there is a lot of BS on the forums; an old style vernier isn't likely to be anymore accurate than a digital unit overall.    The accuracy issues come from the design of the devices more than anything else.  Comparing calipers to Micrometers though, the Micrometers win hands down.  

Too tired to continue!


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## kd0afk (Nov 18, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> You asked at the beginning will they serve you well?    There is a simple answer to that question, how's your eye sight and what's your expectation for your eyesight ten years from now.   That might not be the selection parameter you have in mind, but let me tell you squinting or looking for a magnifier gets old too.     Now some are blessed with better eye sight than others in old age maybe this isn't an issue for you.   I'm personally taking a two pronged approach to instruments.     I buy used tools when the opportunity arises of any type and have my eyes on the purchase of a couple of digital micrometers when I can.   I already have digital calipers and wouldn't give them up for anything.
> 
> As far as batteries go you can get solar powered calipers that don't need batteries.  I have a pair at work that are very old and never had a problem with them.   The cheaper calipers are a problem quality wise so avoid those known to be an issue.
> 
> ...


I agree completely, but here are few points. They.are a magnetic magnifire for the verniers also I wear bifocals so that's not an issue. As for electronic calipers, I didn't know that they came in solar but I am very hesitant to use them again. At least when a dial caliper breaks, I can open it up and troubleshoot it. 
Anyway, thanks for all the great advise and opinion. I think I made the right choice on this.


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## barnesrickw (Nov 19, 2013)

I heard someone once say "measuring is the enemy of accuracy".   I know it is impractical to never measure, but it allows the introduction of error regardless of how precision the instrument is.


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## kd0afk (Nov 20, 2013)

I got the vernier today. 
This measurement is 2.762 correct?


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 20, 2013)

2.769" if i am correct to read from the photo.  But i hate the 1:1000" caliper, prefer the caliper with imperial fractions.


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## kd0afk (Nov 20, 2013)

Mechanicboy said:


> 2.769" if i am correct to read from the photo.


How do you get that number?


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## Woodster (Nov 20, 2013)

2.762" is correct.


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## kd0afk (Nov 20, 2013)

Just like reading a mic.
How would one establish a measurement in the vernier?  In otherwords, if I have a measurement and I want to set the caliper to that measurement, what is the process for that?


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 20, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> How do you get that number?



It is difficult to read correct, now i can see there is 2.762" and compared with millimeter in same photo: 25,4 x 2,762 = 70,15millimeter.


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## barnesrickw (Nov 20, 2013)

How do you get the last two numbers?  I can see the 2.7 and just past the 5.  Is there a mark to indicate the last two digits are 62?  I would like to use these if I could read them properly.  They look like they would handle my level of care better.


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## barnesrickw (Nov 20, 2013)

I googled it.  Now all is clear.


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## ruzzie (Nov 20, 2013)

On the top scale you go along until you see two line that are inline which happens to be .012
So you add 2 + .7 + .05 + .012  = 2.762


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## kd0afk (Nov 20, 2013)

barnesrickw said:


> How do you get the last two numbers?  I can see the 2.7 and just past the 5.  Is there a mark to indicate the last two digits are 62?  I would like to use these if I could read them properly.  They look like they would handle my level of care better.



It's just like reading a micrometer. 
The main scale is inches, tenths and hundreds. The vernier scale takes care of hundredths and thousandths.

I like this little thing. It seems to me just as accurate as a dial caliper. I will compare it to the micrometers when I get them.


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 20, 2013)

Here is the clearly explained  http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Vernier-Caliper


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## Wizard69 (Nov 20, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> I agree completely, but here are few points. They.are a magnetic magnifire for the verniers also I wear bifocals so that's not an issue. As for electronic calipers, I didn't know that they came in solar but I am very hesitant to use them again. At least when a dial caliper breaks, I can open it up and troubleshoot it. Anyway, thanks for all the great advise and opinion. I think I made the right choice on this.



I understand your point about repair ability as I have a broken pair of digital calipers that I need to get fixed right now.   Still for me the convenience of digital out weighs the distraction if I'm buying new.  Well at least for something I use frequently.


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 20, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> I like this little thing. It seems to me just as accurate as a dial caliper. I will compare it to the micrometers when I get them.



A vernier caliper is used to take measurements that are accurate to within .001 of an inch or .02 of a millimeter, depending whether the vernier is imperial or metric.

This is a bit coarse measure compared with the micrometers if you want to take precision measuring of the work.  The precision measure you can get is gauge block. They are used as a reference for the calibration of measuring equipment used in machine shops, such as micrometers, sine bars, calipers, and dial indicators.


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## Wizard69 (Nov 20, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> I got the vernier today. This measurement is 2.762 correct?



I'd say so though it is close to 2.761 for me.


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## pkastagehand (Nov 20, 2013)

Keep those old world crafts alive!

I got 2.762 as far as my eyes could shade the lines... too bad numbers on the real thing aren't that big!

I mostly use a dial caliper for everything (cause I only have a 0-1" mic) and snap gauges with the caliper or the mic for inside stuff.  My projects don't generally need any more accuracy than that... (probably been said by others but I didn't read every post).


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## kd0afk (Nov 20, 2013)

Just set the record straight, I know that micrometers are more accurate than a caliper. I have known this since I was 12. Why people keep telling me this is a mystery.


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## Wizard69 (Nov 21, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> Just set the record straight, I know that micrometers are more accurate than a caliper. I have known this since I was 12. Why people keep telling me this is a mystery.



Who knows.   Calipers are good enough for the vast majority of work done by engine builders.    Especially if you are modeling something built more than a century ago.    

I happen to work in the optics industry, micrometers in this industry often just get you close.   Everything is relative.


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## kd0afk (Nov 22, 2013)

I got my haul today. 
I'm pretty impressed with the micrometer set. They have vernier scales so I they're accurate to .0001"  I like that. Had to calibrate them with the standards but they're ready to go now. The box is just about as cheap as they could make it but it's China so I didn't expect better. 
The dial caliper is nice. It's not an etalon with the  .0005 marks but that's alright. 
The telescopic bore gages are a little rough. When I snug them to take the reading they seem to loosen up before they should. The pressure from the screw isn't constant. I'll use them but will probably get the set made by Starrett.
I really like the vernier caliper and it will make a good back-up. 
And I now have more adjustment spanners than I know what do to with LOL


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## kd0afk (Dec 3, 2013)

OK you guys say I need to be more accurate? How's this? 





Mounted on this base?




It can be used in conjunction with a gage amplifier to read down to a ten-millionth of an inch. I checked eBay and it's a modest $750. For the accuracy I would say thats pretty reasonable.


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## lastpatriot (Dec 3, 2013)

I thought it would be cool to get a vernier caliper, fewer parts than a dial caliper, figured with care it would last forever.
bought a starrett 6" then when I tried to use it came the problem,
I'm over 50, need a magnifing glass to read it. didn't figure on that.
I have a starrett 6 dial caliper I've had for 25 yrs, love the tool.
you can definitly feel the difference between a quality tool and a chinese 
or cheap tool. as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.
If you use something a lot, or plan on having it for many years, spend more,
otherwise the cheap stuff normally works ok.
just my .02 cents.
(some misspelling, couldn't find a spell check here)


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## Wizard69 (Dec 3, 2013)

This is why you see a lot of older machinist running around with those clip on magnifiers on the side of their glasses.  Either that or magnifiers in their shirt pocket.  

Personally I'd rather just go digital myself when I can afford too.   



lastpatriot said:


> I thought it would be cool to get a vernier caliper, fewer parts than a dial caliper, figured with care it would last forever. bought a starrett 6" then when I tried to use it came the problem, I'm over 50, need a magnifing glass to read it. didn't figure on that. I have a starrett 6 dial caliper I've had for 25 yrs, love the tool. you can definitly feel the difference between a quality tool and a chinese or cheap tool. as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. If you use something a lot, or plan on having it for many years, spend more, otherwise the cheap stuff normally works ok. just my .02 cents. (some misspelling, couldn't find a spell check here)


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## kd0afk (Dec 3, 2013)

Funny you should mention optivisors. I'm working on a steampunk style optivisor with flip down lenses for additional magnification.


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## Wagon173 (Dec 4, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> This is why you see a lot of older machinist running around with those clip on magnifiers on the side of their glasses.  Either that or magnifiers in their shirt pocket.
> 
> Personally I'd rather just go digital myself when I can afford too.




I disagree.  You see older machinists running around with clip on magnifiers because it seems like its a convenient place to keep one.  If I wore glasses, I'd be rockin' one of those clip on's, also!  Unfortunately I have perfect eyesight and have to keep a magnifying glass on my layout bench and one on my machine bench.  When it rains it poors, I suppose lol :fan:
-Brandon


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## kd0afk (Dec 4, 2013)

Wagon173 said:


> I disagree.  You see older machinists running around with clip on magnifiers because it seems like its a convenient place to keep one.  If I wore glasses, I'd be rockin' one of those clip on's, also!  Unfortunately I have perfect eyesight and have to keep a magnifying glass on my layout bench and one on my machine bench.  When it rains it poors, I suppose lol :fan:
> -Brandon



You unfortunately have perfect eye sight? You would actually trade your ability to see perfectly without having to wear $500 devices clamped on your face for the convenience of having a magnifying glass handy? Really?


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## Wizard69 (Dec 4, 2013)

kd0afk said:


> Funny you should mention optivisors. I'm working on a steampunk style optivisor with flip down lenses for additional magnification.



I'm thinking of these sorts of clip ons:   http://www.casker.com/eyeloupes-magnifiers.html.   There are actually more than a few designs out there.   Sadly I think I need to get something soon.


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## kd0afk (Dec 4, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> I'm thinking of these sorts of clip ons:   http://www.casker.com/eyeloupes-magnifiers.html.   There are actually more than a few designs out there.   Sadly I think I need to get something soon.


Very cool. 
Or you could go the more expensive route and get loupes mounted permanently to the lenses to make a stereo magnifier. Surgeons wear them when they're doing tight work. Someone brought a pair into the camera shop I worked at. I think they were made by B&L as well.
At some point I'm supposed to be getting my new glasses when the VA gets around to it. I might get a set of those clipons.  They also make you look like you mean business too.


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## kd0afk (Dec 4, 2013)

They also make clip on flashlights and Oakley makes a clip on Bluetooth and a clip on mp3 player.
I was thinking about using a pair of Oakley X frames as my safety glasses. They would last forever.


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## Walltoddj (Jan 2, 2014)

Over the years I've owned all types of calipers and mics I'm still using my 40 year old Craftsman 6" vernier though it's harder to read I mounted a magnifier light on the end of the bench this serves two jobs, one to read very small print on tool and the second for sliver removal. My latest is a Harbor Freight $10 digital caliper that works just fine and depending on how tight the tolerance is I finish with them, but these are kept on the top of the lathe or my work cart so that they are never in the chips. I find that a work cart works best to keep the job organized and tools from getting damaged you can then move the job from machine to machine which is also convenient(this is hope we worked in the plant and it worked out well for me). Be sure to wipe the tools down with a light oil or something to prevent rust when done with them and they will out last you or I, so of my tools were my Grandfathers and they still work like new including the 4",6",8", and 12" Mitutoyo.   

Todd
https://www.google.com/search?clien...IsTn2wXow4D4Cw&ved=0CCwQBSgA&biw=1680&bih=931


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## gus (Jan 3, 2014)

*Calibration.*
Did Trade School in 1961. Asked following question well ahead of time and was told to shut up.:hDe:
"How are we to ensure micrometers we used are accurate as they are supposed to be?"
Was cheeky enough to show machine shop instructor two Outside Micrometers. Both were not zeroed in and hence not accurate. Instructor was red-faced and poor Gus was the bad guy.:hDe:
In the 80s came ISO and periodic calibration and certification of measuring instruments.In 1997
all our plant instruments were calibrated twice yearly.

Good friend of mine gave me brand new Poland 0---50mm Outside Mike.Poor mike not zeroed in. 
We are fortunate that digital calipers and mikes have "zero button".
But years down the line the anvils will wear and accuracy compromised. When this happen,will just buy replacement.
Bought a M.I.China . "Kernn Germany" Digital Caliper for S$18 from local shop.So far so good and battery not eaten up and no blinking fairy lighting on the digital display.
*LESSON*
German or Japan Branded device when too cheap is M.I.China.


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