# jan ridders internal valve plasma mastigater



## kcmillin (Jan 23, 2010)

Well, upon viewing this site, and postiing a few comments, I decided its time to start a new project. Its going to be an atmospheric engine designed by Jan Ridders. 

here is my first saturdays progress.





making the fins and drilling the hole




boring the hole to size. I got lucky and did it in one pass. by accident of course.




milling the flat spot for the flame hole (not sure the official name for this) intake??




thats it for today. 

tomorrow I drill the holes and fit the bronze bushings.

What do you guys think about using CRS for both the piston and cylinder? 
thanks,
kel


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## IronHorse (Jan 23, 2010)

Nice work so far.

Since these type of engines run without oil, I would suspect that a piston/cylinder of CRS, may rust after a while.
My next engine will have a 303 Stainless cylinder with a Graphite piston, I hope this combo works out.

Just my 2cents


IronHorse


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## kcmillin (Jan 23, 2010)

Do you know of a good place to buy graphite? the plans call for cast iron, would that be a beter choice?


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## putputman (Jan 24, 2010)

You can buy graphite from McMaster Carr. I buy the 1" sq X 6" long piece. It is less expensive than trying to find round stock. 
UPS charges kill you on small orders so I always try to stock up on tool or other materials I need. They have good cast iron also if you want to try that.


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## Blogwitch (Jan 24, 2010)

Personally, I would stick with making this engine as is, direct from the plans.

You will most probably have enough trouble getting it to run without having to take into consideration any modifications you do to it.

I think Jan quoted either cast iron/cast iron cylinder/piston specifically for the lubrication qualities inherent in the material itself.

If you read the trials and tribulations that this member went thru to get his running, it might give you an insight iinto what may be to come, and maybe a few pointers in the right direction.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6803.0

Blogs


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## Stan (Jan 24, 2010)

I have not seen any flame eaters that would run continuously. It may be possible to design one that radiates heat as fast as it is absorbed, but all I have seen eventually reach a temperature where there is not enough cooling to continue running. It is therefore necessary to get the best cooling possible and I have found that an aluminum cylinder gets rid of the heat better than a cylinder with a fitted liner. 

I have one with an aluminum cylinder with an aluminum piston that runs well and one with aluminum cylinder and graphite piston that runs well. Both will start instantly when the flame is put in position without preheating - just a turn of the flywheel.

Graphite is used extensively in EDM machines and lots of it turns up on ebay in all manner of shapes and sizes. Buy one big block and it will last you a lifetime. It is easy to cut on the bandsaw and easy to machine, just messy. I bring a piston to final size (fitting to cylinder) with the back side of the last piece of emery cloth used.


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## Blogwitch (Jan 24, 2010)

Actually Stan, this Jan Ridders design will run as long as you feed the flame. I used to, and still do occasionally, get mine down and have it running on my desktop while I'm contemplating my navel and designing new things.

I can top up on the run as I have a remote reservoir to the burners, and I think the longest run must be about 3 hours up until now. In fact, the engine has to be well warmed up first before it will run. Mine has the cast iron piston/cylinder, as Jan designed it.

Blogs


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## kcmillin (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks alot for the info guys. I really appreciate it.

Well its time to do a little millin. 
I should have some more pictures tonight.

kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 24, 2010)

Well here is the deal. I would like to stick to using materials found in my shop.
Here is waht i have to use for a piston.
   -steel crs
   -aluminum 6061
   -brass
   -bronze
   -acetal rod-??
What would be the best?

thanks,
kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 24, 2010)

Here is sundays progress.




drill and tapping the mounting holes. I chose 1/4-20 




drilling the valve guide




finishen pillars next to cylinder. I used aluminum and put fins in it. Maybee this will help with heat transfer. who knows??? I have a bunch.




I used some aluminum diamond plate for the base. I got a crap load of it at the scrap yard for less than $.40 per square foot. thats like 95% off the Menards and other hardware store prices.




finished valve rod




started work on the bearing brackets.
More to come soon!!!

PS> any ideas on what to make the piston out of? 
There is a list of materials I have in this thread


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## kcmillin (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, North Dakota was being its usual January self and there is a bit of a blizzard outside, no work today. Needless to say I got a little bit more done on the flame eater today.





Finished the bearing brackets. I love working with brass. too bad its so expensive.




creating a bead on the small pillars for the bearing brackets.




Got the crank all soldered together. Electricle solder that is. (I have had a lot of success using electric solder for brass, copper, and steel parts. So dont give me any greif. I dont want to spend $15 bucks for 6 inches of silver solder.





Cutting the flywheel blank out of my prized 2 1/2 inch round 3ft long steel bar 





Here the the assembly so far. Thats all the parts for today. 

Ime still looking for advice on the piston. I dont have cast iron, Ime thinking of using brass or bronze.?.?.? I have steel. aluminum, and acetal rod also.
Please help.

Thanks 


kel


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## Deanofid (Jan 25, 2010)

You're really moving along on this build, Kel. It looks nice, from what I see here.

Dean


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## Blogwitch (Jan 26, 2010)

With reference to your piston question.

I would be tempted to go with the same material as you have made the cylinder out of. 
Purely for the reason of both having the same expansion rate. A different material is just liable to either sieze up solid, or go too slack, all because it expands slightly different to the cylinder material.

Blogs


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## kcmillin (Jan 26, 2010)

thanks alot Blogs. For now its steel. But I will soon be gettibg cast iron. I can only hope to get it to run as good as yours.

thanks again


kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 26, 2010)

Well, I guess my dreams come true. Kind people of the internet cast their kindness on me. In the form of a chunk of graphite, provided by our verry own GailinNM. I cant say this enough Thank you thank you thank you. 

So anyway I had already had a steel piston made, so I decided to try and finish the engine. (sorry no pictures today) So I got everything done, and was all set to get it going. So I grabbed my mini torch, and proceded to turn the engine over. And no suprise, NOTHING. Well I am not going to get down about it, it seems to be a kind of right of passage for these type of engines. It does make a nice popping sound, but the valve is a little sticky. Not to bad but enough to require some attention. I notice the seals of the piston and valves are my best so far, but how much vaccume should the engine hold and for how long??? I can get it to register on my vacume gauge but it does not hold for verry long at all. But hopefully the graphite will prove a good seal and lubricating qualitys.

So my question is, what should the fit between the cylinder and piston be? Should there be any slight leakage at all??? Or do we need a perfect, life or death seal?

Thanks


kel


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## Deanofid (Jan 26, 2010)

Don't really have a direct answer, Kel, but looking at the crank bearings, they appear to have a plastic grease seal. Maybe it's just the picture. If they are sealed bearings, they probably make too much friction to let the engine run. 
You can probably get the seals out with a dental pick. Wash the grease out of them, and use a very light oil.

Just a suggestion.

Dean


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## kcmillin (Jan 27, 2010)

good eye dean, I can barely make out anything in those pictures. (sorry, no camera yet, just a phone) and yes they are sealed bearings. I will try this tomorrow morning. before work. 

thanks,

kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 27, 2010)

signs of life!!!!!!!! Cnat talk, gotta go, to excited.
  ;D           

kel


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## Deanofid (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, that's a mean tease.
: )

Dean


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## kcmillin (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry about the suspence. But with a little bit of fiddling, I goit it running. and verry well too. I ran 3 tanks of fuel through non stop for 2 and a half hours. I am so excited. I went with the steel piston, and using Blogs advice, put some graphite in the cylider. (I used pencil graphite) and sure enough iuts alive. 

here are some more pics and a video of it running. 
enjoy





making the piston rod thingy.




the assembled engine.





the engine is running!!!!!!!!!!


thank you all for the help. I could not have done it without you guys.

I think its time to make another one. This time using the graphite, and 12L14 that GailinNM is going to send me. (cant thank you enough by the way)

thanks,

kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 27, 2010)

Just another side note (a little hubris on my part) I got this engine built and running in six days.

With the help of you guys of course.

thanks 


kel


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## GailInNM (Jan 27, 2010)

Congratulations, Kel.
It looks like you have everything under control there. Just refinements from here on out. Thanks for keeping us up to date with your posts.
 Thm: Thm:
Gail in NM


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## Deanofid (Jan 27, 2010)

That's great, Kel!


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 27, 2010)

Congratulations kel!!!
The video post was great and I felt good for you.
The post on having accomplished it in 6 days was great and I felt bad for me. :big:
Hm..do I add this engine to my list?


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## Maryak (Jan 28, 2010)

Good one Kel, Congratulations :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## NickG (Jan 28, 2010)

Kel,

I'm sorry I missed this one, I could have given you some pointers but am glad you and the guys solved the inevitible problems. I made 3 or 4 sets of pistons for mine, including an aluminium one which of course, as thought, locked up solid! 

Just for the benefit of others, strangely, and contarary to the belief of many others (including Jan Ridders himself), mine likes to run with oil. I use 10W40 semi synthetic engine oil which I think helps maintain the seal and certainly prevents residues from building up and causing excessive friction. This means it takes around 5 minutes or so to get going until the oil is up to temperature and not too viscous. But it also means I haven't had to strip and clean anything since I first got it running properly. I also bought some IDA (Industrial Meths) which burns cleaner and hotter which helps.

One thing I need to try is running without oil again with this new alcohol. The engine ran faster without oil before but only for a very limited period until it got sutted up. That may not happen with this new stuff.

A different design I am building as my next project incorporates oil cups into the design to prevent adherence of unburnt residues.

I know there are two conflicting ideas on this but there are examples of both working!

Anway, very well done indeed, I only hope posts like ours and Blogs can help other people get their engines running.

Nick


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## kustomkb (Jan 28, 2010)

Well done!

And quick too


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## putputman (Jan 28, 2010)

Congratulation Kel. It looks and sounds great!!!!

What are you using for fuel. The flame really looks clean & bright blue. Do they still sell Everclear in Dakota. I know that burns clean.


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## kcmillin (Jan 28, 2010)

PutPutman, I am using denatured alchohol from the harware store. I think its used as a solvent. But it works great. With some flat wicks for kerosene lamps rolled up and put into a brass tube sticking out a a genuine US mint $1 silver Eagle case. I know, plastic is a bad idea. but I needed something quick.

Nick, After I had it running well last night, I got up this morning to run it again, and it wouldnt go. So I took your advise and put a tiny film of tapping oil, I know its not 10-40, but It ran after that, and for along time too. 

the hardest part seems to be the position of the wick. VERRY SPECIFIC, there is no room for error. 

thanlks everyone,


kel


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## hobby (Jan 28, 2010)

Congratulations on your build.

Fast worker.. 

I'll have to keep in mind the electrical solder...good idea...


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## rake60 (Jan 28, 2010)

Congratulations Kel!

Beautiful runner. Thm:

Rick


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## cobra428 (Jan 28, 2010)

kcmillin,
Nice Work! I think that was the fastest build and get to run I've seen

Tony


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## kcmillin (Jan 28, 2010)

thank you all for the kind words, I cant wait to start another one.

kel


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## NickG (Jan 29, 2010)

Kel, you are right. I can only find 2 wick positions for running. One is where Jan ridders suggests and the other is bizzarely the other side of the port. I think they just correspond to the flame not being blown about by the air / gas being expelled. I was going to try a smaller flame directly underneath the port as it should draw in the hotter part of the flame but the thing you want to avoid is drawing in any cold air so that may not work.

Anyway, they are nice when you can get them to work, very pleasing to watch. MIght have to give mine a run tonight!

Nick

ps what's you're next project then?!


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## kcmillin (Jan 29, 2010)

Nick, Now that I have completed and got running this flame eater designed by jan ridders, I would likle to build one of my own design. Ive had an idea for a twin piston, single cylinder flame eater. I have posted this design in the Q&A section under "Design Questions"
here is the link.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=7933.0

I still dont know if I can get it to work. Theoreticly it might work better that a convential, single piston design. But it is not proven. I still have not figured out the valve setup, but a day or two on th drafting table should fix that. 

These engines are notorious for not running, I was blown away when mine cranked over for the first time. I hope to better that feeling with a design of my own. 

If I draw up some plans for my prototype flame eater, should I post it here?

I would love it if someone else would build this design also, so we could exchange thoughts, and change design elements around to get this thing running. We could be the first to see a design. But I also have some more thinking to do on the subject. so it could be a few weeks before I get a final design. 

anyone?

thanks

kel


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## kcmillin (Jan 31, 2010)

Well, 1 day after getting it running it failed to show any life at all. It was dead. No suprise, considering the bore had machine marks in it still, along with a bit of a taper. the piston and valve were slopped out. Its amazing it ran at all. 

So the day I discovered it was not a runner I get a package it the mail. Boom, there it is, the answer to my question, graphite and leaded steel. Courtesy of GailinNM. (thanks again) Needless to say I started work right away.

  Taking advice from everyone, and deciding what the best solution would be to lap the bore straight and smooth. I started with 100 grit on a wood mandrell, worked my way to 400. Then I used medium and fine lapping compound on a brass mandrell. Well I was not satisfied with this, so I worked up to a 600 grit sandp[aper and got a near mirror like finish in th steel.

So now its time to make a piston. I decided to go with the graphite. After getting them done and fitted I got the engine to run again, however it would only run for short periods of time. I was told the exp[ansion of graphite it different than steel so I suspected this Now it time to make another piston. This time I will use leaded steel. And it runs like a champ again. I got a few more tanks threw her and its running good.

This engine was quite a challenge to get running, and thanks to GailInNM, and all your advice, I got a nice runner.

Thanks again,


kel

ps
I will get some pictures up as soon as I can.


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## kcmillin (Jan 31, 2010)

Now that I got a good runner its worhty of a base. I had some Walnut and maple left over from some christmas presents, so I decided to combile the two. I wanted to make it using techniques from time past. So after getting all the peices cut I held it all together with some 1/8 inch brass rod, no glu at all. and finished it with some good old fashioned toung oil. But I was not quite done yet, I decided to put all that on some brass legs. So I turned a few out of sonme 11/16 round bar.

here it is.

















thats all foir this one.

ok, maybee a little more polishing and she will be done, or maybee some more brass. Ah who am I kidding, these things are never "really" finished.

thanks againg for the help.

kel


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