# The arrogance of some people



## gbritnell (Dec 6, 2010)

I love machining and making parts!!!! With that said I follow quite a few forums having to do with machining and making parts and things.  I have been thinking of purchasing a new mill, yes I might replace the 1978 Enco round poster. I have been looking at the Grizzly G3616. I posted on a couple of forums asking if anyone had one and if so what they thought of it. 
There is one forum that I occasionally browse but have really never had reason to post to so being as I was asking around I posted the same message there. 
The thread got one response and the moderator closed it. When I opened the reason for the closure he stated in no uncertain terms that 'his' forum wasn't the place to talk about 'hobby machines', it was a forum for manufacturing and production. Ok I can understand that to a point but 'he' allows all kind of off topic discussion that has nothing to do with manufacturing or production but that's ok. 
I guess if you don't have an Okuma Howa a Mazak a Maho or a Haas you better stay away from that place. 
I'm not naming the forum on purpose because I don't want to stoop as low as it's moderator. I'm just really put out that someone thinks that 'home shop machinists' don't have the knowledge or experience to participate on his forum.
Enough said.
George


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Dec 6, 2010)

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> I'm just really put out that someone thinks that 'home shop machinists' don't have the knowledge or experience to participate on his forum.




Has he ever seen your work!! That's like telling Tiger Woods he cant hit a ball good enough to play on his golf course.


----------



## bearcar1 (Dec 6, 2010)

Along the same lines of making suggestions to someone that is struggling with a problem in an attempt to help out and getting them shot down by means of the suggestion having no merit (a dumb idea). Of course, you can't please everyone and there are those that would not let you forget it. Sounds like that forum is not as friendly a place as here at HMEM. ;D And I have to absolutely agree with Steve, if that moderator honestly knew the caliber of your work and he said something like that than he is dumb as a rock and should pay better attention to what his users abilities are.

BC1
Jim


----------



## Blogwitch (Dec 6, 2010)

George,

Don't be downhearted, it goes on all over the place. I call it bigotry, holier than thou's.

I am not known for being tactful at the best of times, but things like this must be addressed, out in the open.

I have just told two sites where to put themselves, the first was concerning posts nothing to do with the original concept, hijacking. 
Where a few members thought that a forum is a place to carry on personal correspondence between each other, disregarding that other members weren't interested in what they had to say. That is why we have PM's and emails, or even Skype and telephones. We are creating a historic archive when we post, for the benefit of not just the present, but for the future as well, and within reason, the posts should remain unadulterated by idle chatter. We all do it, but there is a big difference between a couple of short posts, and going on for page after page, as that is what was happening on that site.

The other was to do with members who thought themselves beyong the laws of safety, stating that they had 'lots of experience' and that they didn't need to be told. There are many people in this world who are not now with us, and who should be. Having said the same sort of thing, until something 'happened'.

If I remember rightly, my reply was along the lines of 'I have been scratching my a**e for nearly 60 years, but it didn't make me an expert on piles or pimples'.

Site owner or no, what happened to yourself is not acceptable, and he should be told where to insert his site. He is just a control freak who is imposing his own will onto others, one of the worst kind.

Just to get back to your original theme George. I went from an old mill/drill to one with a knee, and it is a pure joy to use. Don't get me wrong, my old one did everything that it was called upon to do, but having that nice rigid head and being able to go up and down without losing register is something I would now never want to lose.


Bogs


----------



## GWRdriver (Dec 6, 2010)

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> I'm just really put out that someone thinks that 'home shop machinists' don't have the knowledge or experience to participate on his forum. - George


George,
I see and get that treatment occasionally. There are a few who maintain that _amatuer-types_ regardless of skill or accomplishment can never be considered to be "machinists." It's a self-esteem thing - fairly common . . . The only way I can feel like a _somebody_ is to belittle on you. It's irritating, and unfair, but there's not much one can do about them except ignore them, and try to be above it, and go to a more friendly site.


----------



## Cedge (Dec 6, 2010)

George....
I don't need any name to know the forum of which you speak. Your experience is exactly how I came to almost exclusively haunt these hallowed halls. I still have a bad taste from the place, as well as another well known hobby machinist site that quickly proved to be less than new user friendly. I don't mind showing my ignorance, but I'm not one to take having my nose rubbed in it with very much grace or serenity. The experience turned me into a strong advocate for beginners and those who do this magic with disabilities. 

Steve


----------



## gbritnell (Dec 6, 2010)

I response to my own posting I would just like to say that I have never met a friendlier bunch of fellows as the one's who participate on this forum. Everyone has different levels of accomplishment but as far as I'm concerned everyone is treated with an equal degree of dignity. It doesn't matter who has what or who ran which machine in their time, it's just a matter of everyone having a common interest and enjoys sharing it with others. It's no wonder why this site continues to grow.
George


----------



## Twmaster (Dec 7, 2010)

George, like Cedge I too know exactly where you posted and I do not even need to go and look for myself...

Also like others that is why I hang around here. Nice place. Loads of help and not to mention cool projects that would rival and BEST the quality of the work from those 'production' machines....

Don't let the bast***s wear you down.


----------



## steamer (Dec 7, 2010)

Hi George,

I think I can speak for everyone, I'm glad your here!

I have taken the liberty of showing a couple of people on that "other" site whom I know and respect, what you do.....those people, who are highly respected for their ability , not their equipment, have book marked your project threads and quite frankly are in awe....as are we all....with your ability

Tell em to sit and spin!

Dave.


----------



## Maryak (Dec 7, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> George,
> 
> Don't be downhearted, it goes on all over the place. I call it bigotry, holier than thou's.
> 
> Bogs



I have been having problems with my internet connection, (Yep the new wizz bang Wimax). Hoping to gain some insight I joined a forum and made a post in an already open topic. Bingo, the topic was deleted saying the post should have been made in topic X. I then went to topic X and asked why the topic I posted in had been deleted rather than merged. Next, that post was deleted as being off topic. I then wrote to the mod and asked if the only thing they were capable of doing was deleting. This seems to be true as next time I visited my membership had also been deleted.

We are probably both better off without each other. 

Yes George there are some arrogant [email protected]$#@rd$ out there.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## 1Kenny (Dec 7, 2010)

George,

I too am glad you are here. It took me half a minute to find your post that was locked. Think of it as people wearing large horse blinders, that site has always been like that. Its funny that they will cry about machinist jobs going overseas on one side of their mouth and the other side of their mouth is bad mouthing foreign machines. Then if a new person asks a question they kick him. 

Dave,

Nice wording on your post. It will be fun to see the responces.

Kenny 

PS. Thanks for letting me hang out with you guys!!


----------



## mklotz (Dec 7, 2010)

Like Cedge, I'm here because of my frustration with the forum-which-shall-not-be-named and its so-called experts (who often demonstrate an amazing level of ignorance).

That site and another HSM site that drove me here both suffer from inadequate moderation. Off-topic crapola is allowed to overrun the original focus of the forum and genuinely useful contributions are deleted for silly, arbitrary reasons.

Contrast that with HMEM where most of the real moderation required is whack-a-mole on the spammers. With very little input from the staff, the members manage to remain civil and on-topic. In fact, it's really something of an astounding social experiment. As a lifetime cynic, I would never have believed it possible had I not seen it in action. Keep up the good work, guys.


----------



## Florian (Dec 7, 2010)

Hey George

Just forget about those ignorant fools...

If they had to make a compression ring with a chinese hobby machine (and not their very expensive industry machines) they would fail in all the points!! They would not even have the patience to make a complete Engine by their own (without Cnc) 

I had to make the experience that some people just cant handle the fact that someone else is better in machining...!
I was a moderator in a forum. And one day, there was a dispute where i also took part and in the end the owner of the forum started to hate two of the participants of the "rough discussion". 

I figured out it was only because there was a misunderstanding between me and two other forum members. 
I then tried to convince the forum owner (and the other moderators) that actually there was no problem and that it was just a misunderstanding. 
No chance; they just didn't accept any other possibility than the fact (as they believe) that the two members are very arrogant...

Anyway, it wasn't so bad until i made a suggestion that on an exhibition, the members of that board would meet to another time than the members of another board. 
What followed was that the owner was pissed of because of nothing (he thought i would rather like go to the meeting of another board than meeting with that specific board altough i was moderator on that board and not on the other one) 

I didn't put up with that and answered that if he wanted to believe this and if it made him happier then he shall believe this. 
His answer was to officially accuse me of being very arrogant and a know-it-all. 

I can only assume why he reacted that way but i think it had to do with the fact he wasn't very good with machining and such stuff and i (having read a lot about it and also doing practice) was just more succesful than he was.


However, I am no moderator on this board anymore bud i don't really care... 
Just behaved as if there had been nothing except that i am not writing anymore on this Forum (at leas for 3 to 5 Months; i had the impression that i am not welcome anymoreM; though some members keenly asked me to stay... )


Conclusion is; just don't care about such ignorants; if they want something from you they will come creeping on the floor because of a remorse... ;D
And if not, then its better in any way that you are not around them anymore...


Cheers Florian


----------



## itowbig (Dec 7, 2010)

yup i call those a#$$$ holes they have more than you u are a piss ant so your nothing but a lowlife ar%^%%%%%^. 
thats ok because you know there blood and u can check this if you want to IS RED like mine yours and everybody else's
NOW if you have a different color blood then please post a photo so i can see it.
 i have a cure for A%#$#^&#38;# 's its 12 gauge with mr buck.
I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT. sorry just had too now im mad as you know what. im going down the street to kick the s$%t out of the neighbor


----------



## don-tucker (Dec 7, 2010)

George,we meet all sorts of people in this life,some are as nice as nice can be others are aggressive and synical and really upset me,I am very sensitive and get upset very easily.but luckily there are more of the nice people about,as i have found on this forum,the sort of people who go way out ot their way to help someone.Now that way counteracts the others.
It is best to move on and forget the nasty people,they are only trying to prove something,what I don't know.
Don


----------



## kvom (Dec 7, 2010)

Despite the perceived arrogance wrt hobby equipment, I have found that site valuable in a couple of ways:

1) They have the most knowledgeable group of people on Monarch lathes, and I learned a lot about mine there. The main contributors are all polite and helpful.

2) I have been able to purchase tooling and materials there.

So IMO there's no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. For advice on actual machining I use other sites such as HMEM.


----------



## seagar (Dec 7, 2010)

I come to this site on most days because of the the great bunch of talented and not so talented blokes shereing their hobby and interest with each other.It is a credit to the moderators as to how friendly and open this forum is guided and run .

I close by saying,thank you,one and all on here.

Best wishes ,Ian (seagar).


----------



## student123 (Dec 7, 2010)

George,

Yes, officious people crop up. 
No pun intended , I feel it does help to let off steam when that sort of thing happens. (Which is what I hope you've done with your post).

I can echo to the comments of good to have you around here.

Mike


----------



## old-biker-uk (Dec 7, 2010)

Playing 'Devil's Advocate here for a moment - the site referred to is clearly stated as a 'Manufacturing Technology Forum', run/moderated by the owner - his site - his rules. I visit there regularly and as hobby machinist refrain from asking questions about my home workshop kit, keep my eyes open and my mouth shut.
The quality of the work has nothing to do with the forum policy.
There are much friendlier sites for the likes of us, this and 'Madsomethingorother' spring to mind. 
My 2p.worth
Mark
 My Place


----------



## shred (Dec 7, 2010)

I've moderated on a number of forums and by far the most successful are those that have a defined purpose or target and stick fairly closely to it. Otherwise they fairly quickly devolve into chat rooms or moribund heaps people rarely visit. But, each forum also soon acquires the "regulars", who get away with a lot more than newbies do for any number of reasons (sometimes the owner encourages that to avoid the 'moribund-heap' syndrome). I'm pretty impressed the way the 'regulars' around here have done; it's not usual by any means.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Dec 7, 2010)

A craftsman should be judged by his work. I dare say few if any of the members and moderators of that other board are at the level to be accepted by the internet craftsmanship museum. 
I will take an armature machinist (one who machines because they love it an want to ) over a professional (one who does it for money) just about any day. We need the guys that can make hundreds of parts a day on a CNC machine. but that does not necessarily make them a machinist. 
Keep your chin up George you are loved and have a home here. Your work speaks for itself. and for those who are not familiar with Georges work look here.http://craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Britnell.htm
Tin


----------



## dvbydt (Dec 7, 2010)

George,

Like the others have said, arrogance, officiousness, bigotry and ignorance are characteritics shown by people who have got themselves into a position of minor authority and don't realy have the qualifications or experience to be there. Just don't let them get to you.

That said, most engineers, me included, tend to exhibit a degree of self confidence bordering on arrogance based on years (over 50 in my case) of completing projects. Otherwise where would the courage to start on a complicated design exercise come from?

I visit this site regularly for the same reasons I used to read The Model Engineer magazine, I admire the solutions used to solve problems building projects, especially when things go wrong. "Them as don't make mistakes will never make anything." 

On your mill question, I have a Chester 626, Grizzly equivalent G3103 with VFD and 3 axis DRO's and it has served me very well.

Ian


----------



## dsquire (Dec 7, 2010)

George

There is not much that I can add that has not already been said. HMEM is what it is because of Great members such as you. Your builds give us something to work up to and your answers help the rest of us learn how to build like George. You definitely are noticed at HMEM and appreciated. Keep the builds coming George, we love to watch them materialize out of a block of steel or aluminum. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


----------



## steamer (Dec 7, 2010)

Hi Kvom,

I agree, the site has good sections....we know which ones those are... ;D

I am friends with some of the Mods, and many members....but I've seen the behavior before.

It's too bad that some apples spoil it for the bunch....some of the content is really useful...

But if you P(@&#38;# off our George...well....Makes me say bad words!


Dave


----------



## GWRdriver (Dec 8, 2010)

dvbydt  said:
			
		

> That said, most engineers, me included, tend to exhibit a degree of self confidence bordering on arrogance based on years (over 50 in my case) of completing projects.


Ian,
IMHO you have really hit at one of the key components of the matter, or a closely related matter, here. There are many people who are unable distinguish between the self-assuredness which proceeds from educuation and experience and "arrogance." My parents were a good example. In later years I realized they were unable to distinguish between self-assuredness (as demonstrated by professional people - doctors, etc) and arrogance and condescention. The problem was theirs not anyone else's. On the other side of the coin, there are ways to demonstrate one's education, experience, and authority without coming off as arrogant.


----------



## rake60 (Dec 11, 2010)

Actually, l give a big Hats Off Salute to *"forum X"* and it's Old Boys Elitist Club.

I didn't like the way people were treated there, (including myself), so I decided to try and build
a hobby machining forum with a totally different outlook.

It has it's bumps and bruises but all in all I think it's working well.

We can be hard on members here as well!
Join up with a questionable or known spam IP or username and our guys are on it immediately!
But, for well intended members, we will NEVER become *"forum X"*.

Rick


----------



## Lamachina58 (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm not sure what forum is in offense , but I must say as a complete newbie who admits to being that guy who puts a topic up the day I discovered this forum, I have been amazed at the workmanship , acceptance and conversations on this site. I am humbled mostly by the craftsman who does with the simplest mill or only the lathe and a file what I could only dream of. When a guy asks about a grizzly mill, hats off, he will do only better in his craft.
I have been blessed with good fortune in the tools I have today but it all started when my dad got me an emco v10. I encourage my students today to begin with any tools they can and focus on the craft. Thankfully we have our hands,minds and freedom to create. This is an awesome forum full of incredible work.
It truly is an archive worth savoring.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Dec 11, 2010)

Lets face it we all started out as knowing nothing about machining or internet forum protocol. 
I happen to be blessed with mechanical aptitude . Maxed out the mechanical section on the ASVAB(Armed Services Vocational Aptitude battery. an aptitude test given to all applying for US military service.) then was trained by the US Air force in machining and welding. 
My first post to an internet hobby machining forum was ...Gasp ...answering a question. (how dare I)I was greeted by the resident troll at the time with a who the H*LL are you post . and a how dare you invade my cyberspace attitude. I continued to post there for a long time and gained the respect and support of others there. I was and still is a great hobby Machinist board. If you are thick skinned and willing to persevere. 
Since Rick started this one I have hung my cyber hat here. The rules here are pretty simple respect others. Have a teachable attitude and do not teach unsafe practices. I like the family friendly all are welcome attitude. As I have said a place safe for women ,children and small animals. 
Tin


----------



## rleete (Dec 11, 2010)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> As I have said a place safe for women ,children and small animals.



And therefore, more likely to bring someone new into the hobby. If you're afraid to ask questions, you aren't going to learn very fast. And, chance are, leave before you get too far. Sometimes the "stupid" question isn't, if you don't have the proper background. I'm about as mechanically oriented as they make 'em, but that doesn't mean I don't have something to learn when it comes to machining.

Best leave the self important "experts" to wallow in their own sty.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Dec 11, 2010)

> I like the family friendly all are welcome attitude. As I have said a place safe for women ,children and small animals.






> And therefore, more likely to bring someone new into the hobby. If you're afraid to ask questions, you aren't going to learn very fast.


Exactly My wife reads the board on occasion. She attends shows with me and explains to the crowds how our engines work . I say our engines because my wife and son have both built there own. i have been at shows and have seen some young girls that were excited about building simple model engines. this does not need to be an old mans hobby .but it will be if the young ones are put off or chased off. 
There are several instructors here. This and other forums should be a friendly place for students to learn. a supplemental resource ifyou will.
Tin .


----------



## Lew Hartswick (Dec 13, 2010)

As an electrical engineer friend of mine once said when some one ask him if he could
fix their TV set, "Would you ask a brain surgeon to butcher a cow" . The same sort
thinking should be considered when posting questions on a bulletin board. 
Or as Gilbert and Sullivan wrote quite a while ago. " Let the punishment fit the crime".
ie. ask an appropriate Bulletin Board for an appropriate question. 
  ...lew...


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Dec 13, 2010)

Yep. It's "how" you teach. Not what you know.
As odd as it may sound...a good teacher doesn't necessarily have to know the subject.

Ideally I want a good teacher with knowledge.
Next I'll take a good teacher with poor knowledge.
I have issues with a poor teacher with a lot of experience.
Better than nothing...but I'm more interested in learning the subject...not how to stroke the person's ego. Wanting to learn should be sufficient for that.

Course it's never so black and white. Sometimes that 'bad' teacher has some valuable knowledge you can't get elsewhere. Shame though.


----------



## Cedge (Dec 13, 2010)

> Members should speak up when the experienced guys beat up on the newbies.



The new guy is sacrosanct on this board. Bruise one at your own peril. Just ask those who've earned permanent bans for doing so. You'll find them quite easily on one of the other hobby machinist boards. They're the ones who are vehemently anti-HMEM, because we would'nt let them abuse the less experienced. Others were banned for putting down those who can't afford, can't fit or otherwise don't use/own large american iron. Both groups include a number of grizzled metal veterans. 

Rick was predicted to rapidly fail when he opened this board.... by many of those same people. Later, some of them migrated over and tried to turn it into a mirror image of what many of us had left behind. Those were days of very strong words and some pretty hard feelings, but Rick stayed the course and over time the problem children were weeded out. We've always tried to avoid banning active members and much anguished discussion went into it each time the decision was required. 

Today, I'd say the results of Rick's "failure" can boldly speak for themselves. I'd like to thank Rick publicly for his ongoing supportive stance, his hard work and the personal expense he shoulders, so that we have such a great place to enjoy and learn these black arts.

Steve


----------



## Maryak (Dec 13, 2010)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> Today, I'd say the results of Rick's "failure" can boldly speak for themselves. I'd like to thank Rick publicly for his ongoing supportive stance, his hard work and the personal expense he shoulders, so that we have such a great place to enjoy and learn these black arts.
> 
> Steve



*YES*

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## shred (Dec 13, 2010)

Different people learn different ways.. different teachers teach different ways. It's when the wrong pairing comes up that you have issues.

I think Rick and the moderators have done a great job keeping the spirit and direction alive. They do act as needed, though it's mostly invisible to the average user (you see it in "heavy-handed" complaints elsewhere). As Cedge says, people occasionally try and make it go the way they think it should be, but that doesn't usually last long. A big :bow: for them.

FWIW, I see the newbies that tend to do well here are those that realize they need to start small and listen a lot, while still keeping the dream of doing fancy stuff alive. As one not too long ago, it's easy to underestimate the experience and knowledge needed even for simple looking engines. "Drill a hole through a block of solid metal and not only is the hole not straight, but it's not the same size as the drill either?!?!".


----------



## Cedge (Dec 14, 2010)

Ok boys and girls..... time to back off and take a deep breath. Personalities are getting in the way of home shop machining. I don't want to have to lock the thread but It only takes one click of the mouse. Settle it on PM or drop it.

Steve


----------



## tel (Dec 14, 2010)

Wot Steve said!


----------



## Maryak (Dec 14, 2010)

OK this is a hobby forum not a place for any form of contest. The thread is locked after deletion of the offending posts.

Bob


----------

