# taking the plunge



## Rayanth (May 24, 2012)

Going to be heading up to grizzly this holiday weekend (one of their four warehouses is about an hour drive) And it _was_ going to be just for looking around, but the more I think about it, the more I get the itch.

I've fairly settled on the G0704 mill/drill with stand, as my first machine. (pending anything else that strikes me when I get to Grizzly)Several things come into play in this decision, versus a lathe first, and it just seems 'right' for me:
- I am looking to transfer jobs inside the company to a milling machine operator, so the experience will help
- I don't have a proper workshop, so the included stand will help
- I was always far more comfortable on the mill than the lathe, in H.S.
- There's lots of neat stuff I can think of to make on a mill... not so much on a lathe.
- with a little ingenuity, many lathe operations can be done on a mill, as I've read around the forum and elsewhere (chuck the part and use vise as toolholder, use a rotary table, etc)

But I'm trying to settle on other things I'll need to get at first, with it. Obviously to some extent this will be based on what I want to make with it first, but there are some _absolute_ basics that I am sure I will need:

end mills
mill vise
wiggler
parallels
v-blocks
flycutter (of some sort? Most i see in pics around here are nothing like what i used to use in h.s.)
DTI (?)
cutting oil (suggestions?)
some sort of chunk of metal to turn into lots of little tiny chunks of metal

anything else I should look at as bare minimums?

I am not expecting my first project to be an engine. It's been nearly 15 years since I did much of anything with true machining (not counting my present job punching holes in $140mln airplanes), so I suspect I will start off with an old project I recall from h.s., the snowflake-in-a-cage. Maybe some other easy stuff i see in project books here and there before i start working on mill-based parts of engines.

Inputs as always greatly appreciated.
- Ryan


----------



## gbritnell (May 24, 2012)

All of your points make sense to some degree but as a starting out machinist I would say that a lathe is much more versatile than a mill. You can square up stock on a lathe using a 4 jaw chuck or a face plate. You can turn round pieces, naturally. With the right attachments you can do all sorts of things with a lathe. A mill, although a very hand machine, just isn't what I would pick as a first machine.
gbritnell


----------



## steamer (May 24, 2012)

What George Said!

Dave


----------



## b.lindsey (May 24, 2012)

Ryan,
I think as far as a mill goes..your choice is good what with the stand included, standard R-8 collets, etc. I assume you can save the freight as well by going to the outlet. I know money is a consideration for all of us and you will likely get various views on which to buy first lathe vs. mill. Ultimately, if you pursue machining as a hobby (engines or otherwise) you will need both.Historically speaking the lathe did come first so I don't disagree with George. But if you had said you were going to get a lathe first, I would still say you will need both as finances allow.While many milling jobs can be done on a lathe with proper attachments and patience in set-ups...round work on the mill will largely be limited to drilling and boring, at least withoug a rotary table. As long as your initial projects incorporate those limitations then you should be ok with the mill drill. Just my 2 cents.

Bill


----------



## Rayanth (May 24, 2012)

There are always the nay-sayers 

I did not intend to imply that i would not be pursuing a lathe. It is obvious to me that both will be needed before I get into any projects of any sort of complication.

A lathe, I suspect, could be had within a year of the mill - sooner if I stop eating out all the time ;D

Primary issues of concern for my particular situation in regards to a lathe are that:
- I know my limits and my patience. I really did very little on the lathes in H.S. and if I get frustrated too quickly I am more likely to give up. I would prefer much more research and study on lathe-work before getting one.
- I am, as mentioned, much more familiar with mills and can go further with them, thus increasing my interest in the hobby, and once I start hitting the shortcomings, will be more inclined to want the lathe even sooner.
- my garage, which will be my workshop to an extent, is extremely limited. I have only one outlet, and do not have access to the circuit breaker if I trip it. This will preclude me from using both at the same time (not that it would be wise to anyway), but it will also limit my arrangement. While it is not beyond consideration to run an extension cord from the house to the garage for another machine, that can at best only be a as-needed basis, and is also not really the wisest way to run things. The limitations in space available and arrangement seem to lend themselves more to a mill.
- Lathes in the range I'm looking at are slightly more expensive than the mill, and do not come with their own table/stand. This would delay my usage further until I can convince my extremely busy father to assist me in building up some workbenches.
- When it boils down to it, if I ask myself neutrally whether i want a lathe or a mill, I'm much more excited about a mill. see the first point in how this will affect my interest in the hobby 

So. I greatly appreciate the suggestions of lathe first, but have given it, in my mind, sufficient thought to believe a mill is better for me. YMMV as always.

With that aside, the original question was, what basic additional things would you all recommend to start off with, with the mill (With the understanding that some things will be needed based on the projects attempted, but there are always certain necessities regardless of project - this is what I am interested in)

- Ryan


----------



## Ken I (May 24, 2012)

I bought my lathe and mill at the same time.

Since my previous milling experience was on Bridgeports I quickly dismissed the mill as a POC and ignored it for a long time while using the lathe copiously.

I have eventually come to terms with my mill's limits and foibles and get a lot out of it (but I have bought a BP since - too large for my home shop so it stays at work).

Its a personal choice - you need both but my vote is lathe first.

However for the mill you need a good vice, clamp kit, cutter holder - for a selection of end and slot mills, drill chuck and arbor and a fly cutter - as basic kit.

Moving on - a boring head, slitting saws + arbor and a rotary table should be on your future shopping list. 

2c

Ken


----------



## mklotz (May 24, 2012)

I don't see any measuring tools in your list of things to buy. Do you already have those?

Rather than making _objet d'art_ for your first projects, consider making some simple tools. Examples might include:

mill hold down clamps
depth gauge(s)
tapping tackle
etc.

The possible list is endless.

Advertising your location so it shows both in your profile and on each post will increase the chance of connecting with someone physically close to you. A good way to identify what you *really* need to get started would be to watch, notebook in hand, a hobbyist make something. Keep track of what he uses and how often he uses it, then construct your shopping list with that information in mind.


----------



## Rayanth (May 24, 2012)

strange, thought I had my location showing. fixed that there...

I do have a digital dial caliper from another hobby (+/- .0005), as well as a 6" scale with 10ths/100ths on one side and 32nds/64ths on the other. If anything particularly precise or expensive is required, I can bring the part in to work and use tools from there. Just can't legally bring them home. well, if I want to keep my job. As management is fond of saying "you can do anything you want on your last day at the Boeing Company."

- Ryan

edit: my lack of sleep seems to be catching up. 'digital' and 'dial' used conjunctively seems rather silly. it's a digital caliper, no dial.... ignore my sleep-addled typing.


----------



## 90LX_Notch (May 24, 2012)

Everything on your list plus: Collets, drill chuck*, shank for drill chuck* and a boring head. You have a ? by the DTI. You will need it to align the vise and center bores etc. Also, buy quality end mills.  

*The Grizzly catalog does not say included.


----------



## mklotz (May 24, 2012)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> I do have a digital dial caliper from another hobby (+/- .0005), as well as a 6" scale with 10ths/100ths on one side and 32nds/64ths on the other. If anything particularly precise or expensive is required, I can bring the part in to work and use tools from there. Just can't legally bring them home. well, if I want to keep my job.



Calipers are useful but you'll need a one inch micrometer at home. Also a good engineer's square is, IMO, an essential.

BTW, get something with a precisely known size and practice measuring with your calipers. They may resolve to (though not necessarily be accurate to) a half thou but, if your technique is flawed, you'll be lucky to hold to a few thousandths. Also remember that calipers will always read low when measuring the inside diameter of a hole.


----------



## steamer (May 24, 2012)

No Naysaying Ryan.....just my opinion..

No body here is doing this for a living....so plan your tools to maximize your skill and enjoyment.

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 24, 2012)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Calipers are useful but you'll need a one inch micrometer at home. Also a good engineer's square is, IMO, an essential.
> 
> BTW, get something with a precisely known size and practice measuring with your calipers. They may resolve to (though not necessarily be accurate to) a half thou but, if your technique is flawed, you'll be lucky to hold to a few thousandths. Also remember that calipers will always read low when measuring the inside diameter of a hole.



precision measuring tools is a course required of all mechanics at boeing, i'm well versed in their use =)
Advanced precision measuring tools will be my next one, when i go up for QA... not sure what that one entails. the basic course covered micrometers, calipers, feeler gauges, taper gauges, and even some unique stuff not found in the public often such as the electronic gap-man. We also went over ball-gauges, inside micrometers, and a few other things i'm sure i'll remember when i'm more awake. In all of these, we had to show a degree of proficiency in order to pass the course, and I use them frequently in my job as well.

Adding the square and micrometer to list though. Good suggestions =)


----------



## Tin Falcon (May 24, 2012)

A set of drill bits of some sort.

V- blocks INMHO can wait. and simple steel packing straps make great "free" thin parallell. 
if you were farther away like 2 hours I would say get a surface plate the shipping is sometimes the killer on those the plates are cheap. 
some sort of layout tools scribe hermaphrodite calipers maybe a height gauge. Ideas I think the others covered the basics fairly well. 
ti


----------



## Paulsv (May 24, 2012)

A few of other basics to consider: an edge finder, a spotting drill (for accurately starting holes), a set of R-8 collets (or end-mill holders) and a clamping set such as this:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/52-pc-Clamping-Kit-3-8-Bolt-Size/G1075


----------



## Herbiev (May 24, 2012)

I too agree that a lathe will be far more useful as a first machine. With a bit of planning a lathe can be used for many milling operations as well as making many accessories for a milling machine when you do get one ( fly cutters, edgefinders colletts and a host of other accessories


----------



## jerrybilt (May 24, 2012)

A " reasonably" good 6" rotary table will make the mill- drill a most versatile machine and if you add a suitable tail stock you will have " one hell of a mill- drill ".

Jerry


----------



## Ken I (May 25, 2012)

Pick your first project and decide - can it be done on a mill only or a lathe only ?

Make a list of all the tooling & measuring gear you would need to build this project.

Ken


----------



## Blogwitch (May 25, 2012)

Ryan,

We can only suggest, not tell you what is needed.

One thing I would suggest is to forget about milling at this time.

Even as close as say 10 to 15 years ago, a mill was an absolute luxury to have in your shop, and most of us seemed to machine and make everything we needed just using a lathe, bench vice, hacksaw and files. Then after that, the next luxury was a small drill press.

People, especially new starters, have totally forgotten how to use hand tools, relying on machines instead. There will come a time when those hand skills will definitely be needed, so in the beginning is the best time to learn.

The lathe is the 'master' machine of any manual workshop, which in all honesty, with a little work, can be used to mill as well.

You WILL also find that a mill will cost many more times to tool up than a lathe, it is for that reason people usually go for a lathe to begin with.

For a lathe, maybe 50% more of it's cost to tool up to a good standard, whereas a mill can be many times the cost of the original machine to tool up to do most things, especially if you don't have a lathe in the background.

Just a suggestion.


John


----------



## Rayanth (May 25, 2012)

So, hypothetically speaking, if one were to get a lathe (10x22 from grizzly) first, what might they need for tooling it up initially? I've already stated I am MUCH less well versed in lathe stuff, so forgive ignorance please =)

(still can't fathom how one would mill in a lathe, except flat surfaces.)

-Ryan


----------



## arnoldb (May 25, 2012)

Hi Ryan

I agree 100% with John - having gone through this exact process myself in the last 3 years.

For starters on a lathe - check what the lathe comes with as standard and add as needed:
3 jaw self centering chuck
4 jaw independent chuck - indispensable IMHO 
Magnetic base and dial indicator
Tailstock drill chuck - this is not an option; it's a necessity.
A good set of drills
A collet chuck is really handy to have, but also a good learning exercise to build as a project.

As to cutting bits, I prefer High Speed Steel blanks to grind up as needed; this implies getting a small bench grinder as well and a bit of a learning curve, but I get MUCH better results on my lathe with custom ground bits rather than carbide tipped or insert tooling - so kind of a personal choice.

Milling in the lathe usually entails clamping your workpiece to the cross slide in some fashion and chucking up the milling bit in the headstock - collet chuck is a definite requirement for that. There are quite a couple of threads here on HMEM where members show how they're going about milling in the lathe.

I don't know what marking-out or measuring equipment you have, but a vernier/digital caliper is nice to have, a small engineer's square (or better yet a set), and a 0-1" (0-25mm) micrometer and a 6" (150mm) steel ruler.

A drill press is very handy to have - even one of the "cheapies" that's available.

Other members will most likely have some bits to add on.

Regards, Arnold


----------



## lensman57 (May 25, 2012)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Going to be heading up to grizzly this holiday weekend (one of their four warehouses is about an hour drive) And it _was_ going to be just for looking around, but the more I think about it, the more I get the itch.
> 
> I've fairly settled on the G0704 mill/drill with stand, as my first machine. (pending anything else that strikes me when I get to Grizzly)Several things come into play in this decision, versus a lathe first, and it just seems 'right' for me:
> - I am looking to transfer jobs inside the company to a milling machine operator, so the experience will help
> ...




Hi Ryan,
A good well made lathe could do some of the jobs that a mill would and a good mill will do some of the jobs that a lathe could do, both subject to size restrictions, but neither is capable of doing all of the stuff of the other.

At the end of the day it all depends on you and your budget and the jobs requirement and if you are going to make money out of production of these parts or if it is just for hobby and prototyping.

Take your time and make sure that you buy the best machine of either type that you can afford, it will save you money and time in the long run.

Regards,

A.G


----------



## Blogwitch (May 25, 2012)

Ryan,

Milling on a lathe. Imagine your cutter being held where the spindle chuck is in a collet holder.

You already have two of the mill axis on a lathe, the saddle fwds/back gives you your Z axis (depth of cut).

The cross slide fwds/back gives you the equivalent of the X axis (side to side).

To make things a little easier, you use a vertical slide to give you the equivalent of your Y axis (front to back)

Vertical slides were the main thing used a few years ago when mills just weren't available, and they bolted to your cross slide. You can even get ones that rotate on the base, and that co-relates to a swivel base on the milling vice. If you get one wide enough, you can even fit a rotary table to it, so giving you almost everything a mill can do.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Lathe_Milling_Slides.html

You are a little limited by depth of cut, as they are not as rigid as a large mill, but on the other side of the coin, they have been used for many years to make largish locos and traction engines.


John


----------



## Rayanth (May 25, 2012)

I guess I just was concerned that it would be too easy to hit the lathe chuck with the part, i can see how it would work though.

Lathe vs Mill, my only concern right now is the lathe I am looking at (10x22) recommends a 20 amp breaker, the lathe's motor is rated at 13.6 amps. I'm in an 80's quadplex with detached one-car garages, the garages are presumed to all share the same breaker, as they each only have one outlet, plus the single-bulb light fixture. They do not have garage door openers. I do not have access to the breaker box the garages are on. My in-home breaker box has 15 amp breakers labeled 'lights' and everything else is 20's or 30's, but those are heaters, stove, etc. So my concern here is that the garage is on a 15 amp breaker and I will trip it with the lathe and be unable to reset the breaker without a maintenance call that could take several days. (there's a slim chance of getting them to upgrade the breaker on such a call, though)

The Mill recommends a 15 amp breaker, as its motor is rated at 3.2 amps.

I have not completely pushed away the lathe idea. But this electrical issue, combined with the fact that i have no suitable workbench (and the thing is HEAVY, I would have to disassemble it to be able to put it up on a bench)...the bench can be solved within a few weeks, but the electrical is an unknown. Any thoughts?


----------



## picclock (May 25, 2012)

Hi Ryanth

Just my two cents. 
Likely chance is that whatever you are making will involve cylinder/piston parts at some stage. IMHO its impossible to make a piston or cylinder on a mill and get the accuracy of size and finish. On one of my projects I am making 130 mm diameter steel discs. I can mill them to nearly the correct size, with a good rotary table, but the surface finish is poor. If you only want to remove a thou or less on the mill the tool will rub rather than cut. In the lathe I can get the diameter to within a fraction of a thou and then polish to remove the very fine turning marks, leaving an excellent finish and the correct size. With a sharp HSS tool half a thou is easy.

Likewise with threading, which is virtually impossible to do on a mill unless you are using taps or dies, and even then its mainly a hand operation. Custom threads are often found on all sorts of parts, and very often large threads are impossible to get taps/dies for (not to mention plastic threads). 

I'm very much a newcomer to metalworking but, for me, a lathe is essential. There are some things that cannot be done on a lathe, but there are a lot of things that cannot be done on a mill. I bought my lathe first and the Mill about a year later. Then I purchased a bandsaw which makes everything a lot easier (you quickly grow tired of using a hacksaw on 2x2 steel). Chances are you will end up with all three if you pursue this hobby.

IMO the most important thing on a mill is DRO readouts for X,Y and Z positions. Its very difficult to do accurate work without them, and generally the smaller the work the tighter the tolerances. 

2nd the bit above about using HSS tooling and grinding your own. The link shows a simple jig for grinding which is great for all kinds of tools, not just threading.

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ThreadingTools.html

Whichever you choose, good luck.

Best Regards

picclock


----------



## Rayanth (May 25, 2012)

I am in negotiations with the landlord to see about adding a 20amp breaker to the garage if i pay for it. the only drawback I can foresee is that the electrical for that stuff is paid by him, not the tenants, so he might have issue there.

I've also asked the rental managers to keep me on the list for a new place where I might have more options in the garage. Maybe a house, or duplex, or townhome, or.. something.

I am ALSO in the looking for a house outright, but that can be troublesome.

in the meantime... lathe or mill, still on the fence. I go to Grizzly either tomorrow or sunday, to take a poke around. May end up getting nothing, now.

- Ryan


----------



## Tin Falcon (May 25, 2012)

Ok breathe do not worry about the power issues. whoever is writing the grizzly manuals is missing something somewhere. Both machines you are looking at are 1 HP motors. 1HP is approx 746 watts. watts is amps times volts so if your line voltage is in deed 110 you should draw 7 amps in round figures. and they are telling you one of there 1 HP motors only draws 3.2 amps and another draws 13.6. I looked at the manuals as well you are not seeing things. But there is no way a 1 HP motor can only draw 3.2 amps and 13.6 sounds like max overload for a 1HP. 
The electricians can chime in here . I am telling you things do not add up. I personally see no need for a 20 amp dedicated line for the lathe. Other than grizzly being over cautious on a breaker rating. 
I would bring this up to the techs at grizzly see what they have to say. 

Disclamers always follow manufacturers instructions I am not a licensed electrician and am not qualified to give electrical advice. 
Tin


----------



## fcheslop (May 25, 2012)

Hi Tin,for the 3.2 amps the line voltage would be 240 as in the U.K sorry dont know what the line voltage is in the USA maybe they are simply quoting the makers spec that may cover both areas
best wishes Frazer


----------



## Tin Falcon (May 25, 2012)

Line voltage in the USA is generally 120 +-
 Tin


----------



## steamer (May 25, 2012)

The answer is 16 amps with a 1HP motor at full song....which it isn't most of the time
Your 15 amp breaker may break if you max it out....99% of the time you won't be pulling a 1/3 of that on a 10" lathe
I wouldn't worry about it a bit.
Reference:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elctrical-motor-full-load-current-d_1499.html

PS this is a great reference web site that I use all the time...

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 26, 2012)

Dave, (and others) as always thanks for the input. You're turning into a real mentor, for me ;D

I've always been rather afraid of most anything electrical, but my dad was a nuclear electrician in the navy and maintains his electrical certs for his home remodeling business, and was giving me 'advice' to the contrary of what you all say. His suspicion was that 13.6 amps quoted was the no-load, and either the starting amperage, or the loaded amperage was going to spike and basically cause me some trouble.

I guess there's naught to do but give it a shot. It'll be annoying to buy a machine that I can't use if it DOES trip the breaker, but at worst case I can just run a heavy duty extension cord from the kitchen (which are on 20amps) ... or even set up shop on the back patio, not that I'd trust my equipment out there, and a 450 pound lathe is a bit much to move around frequently.

So, tomorrow (today, something... when you work graveyard shift, days have no meaning) I will be taking the trip, and may be coming back with far more equipment than I can truly afford ;D

- Ryan


----------



## Tin Falcon (May 26, 2012)

> 450 pound lathe is a bit much to move around frequently.


 on smooth concrete on a solid bench with good wheels it can be done. 
I move weight around daily. sometimes 500lb blocks sometimes 20 50lb blocks on a 150lb cart . 1 person can move over a thousand pounds on wheels what gets tough is inclines and uneven or soft surfaces. 
Make sure the footprint center of gravity is stable you do not want to create a tipping hazard. 
tin


----------



## steamer (May 26, 2012)

Hey Ryan,

Life is a process, not a specific event....your never really "ready" for anything....but don't let that stop you.

Do you have the best set up for a shop at the moment?  Probably not...neither do I.

But start anyway! My first shop was in the wet basement of my parents home....after that it was a spare bedroom in a 3 decker in a bad neighborhood......That was a big step up! :big:

Start before your "ready"...because you really are ready.....it's just that little voice in our heads that gives us the doubt....don't listen to it....go one step at a time and think about what your doing.....you'll move forward.

I hear a model engine running in the future.... ;D

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 26, 2012)

Well, there goes that idea. For now. Grizzly isn't open on the weekends... or memorial day. Now what kind of self-respecting establishment....

So I gotta wait until Friday. which means I have a whole week to talk myself out of this. 

- Ryan

(If it's not one thing, it's another)


----------



## steamer (May 26, 2012)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> (If it's not one thing, it's another)




YUP.....don't let it stop you....


----------



## Rayanth (May 27, 2012)

While the link tot he product manual for the 10x22 lathe on grizzly's website is broken, I found a copy of it on UC Berkeley's websites. Hurray for google!

This product manual confirms that the motor draws 13.6 amps under *maximum* load. I am no longer concerned about the possibility of tripping that breaker 

The manual was a wealth of other information for me as well and helped me determine a few things I need to think about. Going to see if I can't get a workbench built beforehand, my dad's well versed in sturdy woodworking, and can be a great help there.

One question I have for the group is a recommendation of a few good books to teach me the basics of lathework? Grizzly has a few books available that I will probably nab, but is there something you all know of that stands for and above the rest?

- Ryan


----------



## Tin Falcon (May 27, 2012)

Here are my favorites



 http://www.metalworking.com/tutorials/army-tc-9-524/9-524-index.html


http://www.metalwebnews.org/ftp/machinery-repairman.pdf

http://www.wewilliams.net/docs/How%20to%20Run%20a%20Lathe%20-%2015th%20ed.pdf

Tin


----------



## steamer (May 27, 2012)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Here are my favorites
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ditto!


----------



## rebush (May 27, 2012)

Ryan: You've probably already found this. Youtube videos mrpete222. Lyle has about 240 videos on mills and lathes and model engines and old tractors. And he's interesting to listen to. Roger


----------



## Rayanth (May 28, 2012)

ah yes i had found it through other links but completely forgotten! I really need to make use of that 'bookmarks' feature of my browser. but then i would need to remember that i have bookmarks...

Thanks for the reminder =)

- Ryan


----------



## Rayanth (May 28, 2012)

Will be calling Grizzly tomorrow to make sure they even have the 10x22 in stock before I drive up there Friday. might have to order it in advance and say i'll pick up in store, to save the shipping charge (and wait).

Site says shipping weight is 453 lbs. Manual says machine itself is 330 lbs. That's a lot of accessories ???

Asking my dad, in the meantime, to come up with a workbench design. 4x4 hemlock legs, 3/4" cabinetry grade oak plywood tabletop, varnished a few times, 2x4 fascia for added rigidity at the table, a few 2x4's for extra stiffness across the middle to help keep the plywood from bowing. plywood is strong, but 330 pounds is a lot to ask of it.

Footprint in grizzly manual shows actual machine footprint of 4 feet by 1 foot, but recommends a working footprint of 65.5" wide (47.5 for actual machine, 24 past the tail stock, and an extra 16" or so for the access door swing behind the headstock... yes i know their numbers don't add up) ... So I'm thinking a full 8 foot wide bench, mounting the lathe at the far left end so the door swing is just over open space, and that gives me plenty room for a workbench grinder on the other end. Possibly even room for a small cheap bandsaw. What I'm stuck on is the working *depth* of 30" for the machine. a lot of that is for the access door, so it's obvious the machine needs to be at least the appropriate distance from the wall. Is it preferable to have the handles on the compound be jutting out past the workbench? I'm thinking a 36" deep workbench will be sufficient, Just want to get an estimate of where the mounting bolt holes will be going so we can be sure to manage the stiffening 2x4's appropriately.

Input at this point would be GREATLY appreciated.

- Ryan


----------



## steamer (May 28, 2012)

I would double up the top thickness....2 layers of 3/4 ply...the top one can be nice stuff if you like

I would put press board down in sections between the lathe and the bench so you can change out the top occassionally...which is what I've done on my bench....but I would say that's optional

1 1/2 " top is nice and rugged and stiff which will help with the lathe stiffness too.

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 28, 2012)

steamer  said:
			
		

> I would double up the top thickness....2 layers of 3/4 ply...the top one can be nice stuff if you like
> 
> I would put press board down in sections between the lathe and the bench so you can change out the top occassionally...which is what I've done on my bench....but I would say that's optional
> 
> ...



Thickness duly noted. how about location of lathe versus operator side of workbench?

- Ryan


----------



## rebush (May 28, 2012)

Ryan: When I built the base and top for my Atlas 10x24 I welded a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 steel frame together tap-conned that to the wall and floor took a cheap sheet of 3/4 maple ply quartered it thew it in the vacuum press. Had a top that has 2'x4'x3'' thick put a piece of 1/8'' aluminum on the top, levelled and bolted the lathe down. Haven't had to re-level in over a year. I mounted the lathe so all the handles and levers on the saddle were off the top and it's worked great for me. Rigidity in your set-up matters so much in the outcome of your work. Roger


----------



## steamer (May 28, 2012)

Weight and thickness never hurt a lathe bench

Triple it if you like
Dave


----------



## Sshire (May 28, 2012)

Hi Ryan
The mounting bolt holes on the Griz G0602 are 32.5" on center.
My table is an Ikea 48" Oak kitchen countertop (1.5" thick, solid oak). I think it was $89.
It's on steel legs that I got at Grainger (under $100). The setup is very stable. I put concrete anchors into the basement floor and bolted the legs to those.

















Any other questions, just ask.
Pick up a gallon of Simple Green to clean off the Chinese goo.

Best 
Stan


----------



## Mosey (May 28, 2012)

I would like to suggest that you get a sheet metal pan made to fit under your lathe. Mine sticks out about 4" in front. I don't like chips on the floor, because my cat eats them, barfs them up, and then my wife threatens to throw me or the shop out. I also don't like getting them stuck in my sneaks and then tracking them upstairs. The pan sticks out about as far as the carriage hand wheel.


----------



## Don1966 (May 28, 2012)

Mosey is that wood shims I see under your lathe? Does't it have jacking screws on it?

Stan I have a question about your lathe and tha that is how rigid is it, and how do you like it?

Don


----------



## Mosey (May 28, 2012)

Shame on me! Yes, they are wood. I will stay after class and write 500 times "I will not use wooden shims".


Actually, Don, the closed cabinet bases do not allow any jack screws, so I have to use wedges. I don't know how to get steel wedges.


----------



## Rayanth (May 28, 2012)

Mosey  said:
			
		

> ...so I have to use wedges. I don't know how to get steel wedges.



Make them? ;D

- Ryan


----------



## Sshire (May 29, 2012)

Don
Since this is the first lathe I've ever owned (or used) I have no basis for comparison. That said, it seems very solid and stable. My finishes have gotten better as I gain more experience. I seem to be able to take fairly heavy cuts in 6061 and brass and I don't notice my small coolant containers atop the head end vibrating off the lathe. 
Speed changes are much easier once I took the suggestion from a user on the 10x22 forum and went with a slightly longer v- belt. 
I think, for the money, it's a good value and probably the last lathe I'll need (unless a near-perfect Heavy 10 shows up on Craigslist ;D
The 3 best upgrades I've made (in order of cost) are Grizzly DRO for the cross slide, QCTP and a Bison Set Tru 5C collet chuck. The DRO, I think, is critical because the feed screw on the cross slide is metric so the .001 per marking on the handwheel dial is progressively off the more you turn it. Cumulative error. I'm sure Marv could calculate the error quite easily.
Best
Stan


----------



## Rayanth (May 29, 2012)

Having read so much on the 10x22, I finally got around to calling Grizzly today, and they don't have any in stock, and won't until August.

heartbreak!

But their website shows they have the 11x26 in stock... and it's only $300 more at present... hmmmm... I'm sure one can never have too much lathe... thoughts?

- Ryan


----------



## 1Kenny (May 29, 2012)

The 1" spindle bore on the 11X26 will be a good thing to have.

Kenny


----------



## steamer (May 29, 2012)

The old saw is you can do little work with a big lathe, but you can't do big work with a small lathe....

A larger 1" bore is better than a 3/4"...

That said, I don't know much about the 11"...Anybody got some experience with this one?

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 30, 2012)

Well, I hate to have idle hands, and since I can't effectively make the trip to Grizzly until Friday, I set about mocking up a design for the workbench. Boredom and Autodesk Inventor were made for each other!






All legs and supports are 4x4 pressure treated hemlock-fir, which is rather cheap at Home Depot at the moment ($8.77 per 8 footer, and 9 would be needed). Looking at using deck-building hardware to hold it all together nice and sturdy. Shown is two layers of 3/4" high density fiberboard, cut to 4 foot lengths and butted up against each other primarily for the purpose of fitting it in my car. If I can borrow my dad's trailer I might skip that part. a third sheet of 3/4" oak cabinetry plywood would be on top of that, NOT cut down, and finished either with several layers of seal and varnish, or a good wear- and oil-resistant paint.

No drawers, etc - that can all come later.

- Ryan


----------



## steamer (May 30, 2012)

I'd use 3/4 birch ply or equivalent on the top...it's far more stable.

Put at least a lower shelf in to tie the legs in. That will stiffen it up considerably

I would use lap joints on the legs, glued and screwed

Skip the pressure treated, it doesn't glue well

stagger the plywood joints along the length of the bench to stiffen it up.

put a back splash and side splash in

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 30, 2012)

steamer  said:
			
		

> I'd use 3/4 birch ply or equivalent on the top...it's far more stable.
> 
> Put at least a lower shelf in to tie the legs in. That will stiffen it up considerably
> 
> ...



man, i just can't get anything right, can i? :'(

I went with the pressure treated mostly because of the humidity in this area. will help it live longer. It also doesn't flex quite as easily, so I felt that would hold the weight better. The 11x26 is a 490 pound machine. I didn't intend to glue anything, just use decking hardware to tie it all together, that stuff is plenty strong enough when used right, and dirt cheap.

As for backsplash/sidesplash, I wanted both ends of the bench open, so no sidesplashes (left because that's where the gear access is, and right because I want to put the grinder or bandsaw there) and the machine has its own backsplash, though i may consider adding one to the workbench as well now that I think on it.

As for crossing the laps in the plywood I can see an easy enough way to do that, no big issue there

Lap joints on the beams, though, is a bit more complex than my limited woodworking knowledge can handle. My dad has said He will help me (carpentry is his life) but I can't really count on that help, so figured I'd go at this alone. I do want to bounce the design off of him at least.

- Ryan


----------



## techonehundred (May 30, 2012)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Having read so much on the 10x22, I finally got around to calling Grizzly today, and they don't have any in stock, and won't until August.
> 
> heartbreak!
> 
> ...


 I have been contemplating whether to write this or not because I don't want to create tension, but as a guy who is self taught and an amateur in every respect, here is the way I see it.  The thing about the 9927 is it the lathe at the crossroads. It is cheaper than the 12" lathes because it is missing the main features of the 12" lathe. It looks like it will really be nice and a good lathe to start with as long as you expect it to be a starter lathe and will replace it at some point. Now if this lathe is really stretching the budget, I understand that and having a lathe is a lot better than not having one and ignore the following. But if you are considering this as a purchase to grow with here are the negatives I see with it. These are not deal breakers, but just food for thought. 1. It doesn't have a powered cross slide and this feature once you have it, you will not understand how you worked without it. It gives so much better finishes doing face cuts. 2. The spindle is threaded and a weird size at that. Now this may not be a problem for the most part, as it comes with a faceplate, 4 jaw, and a 3 jaw chuck. The only problem will be if you ever want to add accessories that thread onto the spindle. You will probably have to thread and make your own back plates for them.  The other negative thing about the threaded spindle is getting that @#%@#$ chuck off. I did not see an easy way to hold the spindle when removing the chuck. My lathe has a threaded spindle and there are times I wished it did not. My lathe also has an MT4 spindle and that leads to number three. If you are anything like me you will want to use collets at some point. The collets that usually have an adapter for an MT4 are 4-C collets. They are expensive and hard to find. So to use collets you have to find other options such as a collet chuck, or as I did make a collet chuck. Collet chucks are out there, but it is just another extension on the spindle and are not usually as accurate(Maybe better said "as easy to make accurate") as a collet directly in the spindle. I know that the 12" lathes are a big jump in price, but with gear boxes to make speed changes without having to fight belts, powered cross slides and power feeds that do not depend on(ie add wear to) the threading feed screw, and an MT 5 spindle that is not threaded and will easily take available collets, go with an open mind and compare what Grizzly has in the showroom. Play with all of them and get a feel for what the differences are.  I am not trying to discourage a purchase, rather I would hope that it will help you to know what you are looking at when you go to the showroom.


----------



## Ken I (May 30, 2012)

That's good advice - it also suggests it might be an idea to take an experienced turner with you (I trust you know at least one) to get his input.

2c

Ken


----------



## Rayanth (May 30, 2012)

Ken - Sadly I have nobody local to rely on (that I know of), though the thought had crossed my mind.

techonehundred - I hope my usual attitude isn't what barred you from making your suggestion - i know i'm often gruff, but usually it's in jest. I'm very open minded. I have carefully thought over your points.

While the biggest limitation for stepping up to a 12 is the sizeable price jump ($300 to go from 10 to 11 is within reason, another $1000 to go from 11 to 12 would raise a couple eyebrows) and the amount of strain I'm willing to let it put on my finances, there are many other things I've considered as well. All of your points seem very valid and I will certainly refer back to them as I learn to work with my choices.

The biggest physical problem that I have with the step to a 12" is that it requires a step to 220 voltage. I live in a rental, am looking for another rental... and won't be likely to see my own home that I can make significant electrical modifications to, for several years yet. I realize that many 220 motors can be rewired for 110, but that's not something I feel comfortable doing - I prefer to use machines the way they were designed to be used (of course, I will add things to them over time - DRO, etc, but that's different)

In a way, I almost look forward to the added challenges you bring up with the 11x26. It's an odd quirk of my personality, I like doing things the hard way ;D

Regardless, I greatly value your input. And that of all others. Please don't let my strange attitude come across as off-putting, it's my own peculiar brand of sarcasm, mixed with own peculiar brand of mild autism (Asperger's Syndrome), mixed with the way I was treated throughout my childhood implanting itself upon me as an acceptable way to treat others. I honestly mean nothing too serious by it, I am ALWAYS open to input and suggestions.

- Ryan


----------



## jdcool4 (May 30, 2012)

This is the lathe ive been looking at it has power cross feed and a seaprate screw for the feed from threading.


http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1127-VF.html


----------



## steamer (May 30, 2012)

No Slam intended Ryan....just a suggestion

Pressure treated is alright, but if it's wet enough for pressure treated, you probably don't want a lathe in that location....just sayin...

The comments about bringing an experienced hand along are good points....as well as the comments regarding THIS lathe..

Dave


----------



## techonehundred (May 30, 2012)

Ryan, It was not because of you, more because I am not the professional machinist and just the rank amateur. I do understand your reasoning. I also started with an Atlas 9" lathe. It was ok, but I could see it move when making cuts and the cross slide was never very smooth. I bought a used 10 x 24(not like Grizzly's, more like a squat 12x24 that weighs about 800#'s) and was amazed at the smoothness of the slides and how much better finishes were. Either way this is a great hobby to get in to. Wish you great luck with whatever you purchase and remember th_rulze , we must have pictures.


----------



## Blogwitch (May 30, 2012)

Ryan,

I am really pleased you have taken peoples advice and gone for a lathe rather than a mill.

In all honesty, I thought you would really struggle starting off with a mill, and was the reason I showed you what could be done with a lathe.

I am sure you won't be disappointed by going the lathe route, and I am sure I will try to help if you start to struggle and ask questions.


John


----------



## steamer (May 30, 2012)

Ryan,

Instead of 4x4's , use 2 x 4's.  double them up and you can leave the lap joints 

They should be glued and screwed together....Then once it's built, put a good coat of ureathane or paint to keep it stable with changing humidity.

The key with this is buying NICE 2x4's  They need to be straight grained and straight....you probably won't find that at home depot...go to a real lumber yard with your Dad and pick through the pile, or google selecting good lumber and you'll know what to look for

Titebond II will work wonders and is easy to use. Use drywall screws Get them 2 1/2" and drive them in flush.  Got a pistol drill or a screw gun?,,,,makes life way easier.

Clamp the pieces together before you screw them together.  Drive in two screws temporarily, then disassemble
Apply the glue generously.  Put the parts back together drive the screws back in and add a few more.  The reason for putting the two screws in first is when you put two pieces of wood together with a bunch of surface area, the two parts will squirm around making registering them afterwood a PITA.  This solves the problem.

With even a simple miter saw....you know the "zooompa zooompa" type....you should be able to build one of these in a Saturday with a few beers......and no dado's to cut either

Then you can put the plywood on top like we talked about.

Build it on a nice flat concrete floor and it'll make it a bit easier.

Hope that helps!

Dave


----------



## steamer (May 30, 2012)

This articles not bad......thousands more to choose from!

http://www.theclassicarchives.com/how-to-guides/how-to-choose-lumber-for-your-shed-plans

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (May 30, 2012)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Ryan,
> 
> I am really pleased you have taken peoples advice and gone for a lathe rather than a mill.
> 
> ...



Well, I'm still struggling to come up with things to do on a lathe, and worry that it'll put me in more dire financial straights sooner as I rush to get a mill so I can feel "complete" ... but I will do my best to resist the temptations. You all know what you're about, and pretty much unanimously agreed that lathe comes first, so who am I to argue?

Don't be too surprised if in a few weeks my next Q/A post is about "help, I need projects for a lathe" ;D

- Ryan


----------



## steamer (May 30, 2012)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> need projects for a lathe" ;D
> 
> - Ryan



Oh I think we can find something! :big:


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 1, 2012)

My apologies for the silence for the past couple days. I've been sick for a week, and finally went back to work the past few days, less time for the forum. In what free time I did have yesterday and today, I took my dad to his favorite toy store and bought the lumber for my workbench. Utilizing Dave's input and my dad's considerable experience, a very solid 3ft by 8 ft workbench was made out of 4x4's, with half lap joints, and some 2x4's to form the base of a shelf halfway down. The frame alone weighs half a ton, and with my weight and strength I could barely twist it, and it still doesn't have the surface on it.

The surface will be two layers of 3/4" high density fiberboard, which weigh a good 50 pounds a sheet, if not more. The cutoff from these will be used to make the shelf.

I have a local contract who specializes in stainless steel countertops for kitchens, who I will ask about making a chip and oil tray for the lathe.

In the interest of not straining the pocketbook too much, I will be getting a 7x12 lathe from grizzly, rather than the 11x26. I feel a 9 or 10 would be better for what I need in the long run, but they are out of stock on those, and a 12x is out of my league for now.

The smaller lathe will be good for getting started, will leave more room for other tools on the workbench, will leave me more money in the budget for accessories to get tooled up quicker, and will let me save up for a mill sooner. All in all, it feels like a waste getting something that I know will probably not be enough in the long run, but it feels like the right way to go. The 7x12 is so much more popular of a size I should have no trouble finding accessories.

Photos of the workbench will come later this weekend, and I head to grizzly in the morning for the lathe, so for those of you who want a refine of what it was like to open one for the first time, that will be my first work in progress thread...breaking it out, inventorying, identifying, tearing it apart and cleaning =)

-Ryan

PS sincere apologies for typos that I missed, using my phone to post is an exercise in patience at best.

Edit: very belated edit but going through my post realized I typed this on my phone, which loves to substitute the wrong words ('large' for 'lathe', etc) .... fixed them.


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 1, 2012)

Lathe obtained, and some other stuff as well. Too tired to bother with taking it out of the car right now, was a very long night at work, and the hour and a half trip each way to Grizzly was tougher than I thought it would be at the end of a long day. Mail-order may be the way to go in the future for smaller items.

Shopping List of items obtained (I am sure I missed SOMETHING) :

- 7x12" mini lathe (comes with 3" 3-jaw, steady rest, 6.5" faceplate, turret post, and mt2 dead center for tailstock)
- magnetic base with dial indicator (discontinued item, but they had in stock)
- 4 pc measuring tool set (dial caliper, micrometer, indicator, scale, machinist's square)
- 3" 4 jaw independent chuck (discontinued item, but they had in stock)
- Home Machinist's Handbook (I might already have a copy of this in retrospect. hmm.)
- Lathe Operation and Maintenance manual(Discontinued but they had one left)
- 1 gal of multipurpose tapping and cutting fluid
- 10ea 5/16" cobalt tool blanks
- scribe
- 4" machinist's square (forgot one was coming with the 4pc set. never go shopping when you'd rather be sleeping)
- 115pc drill bit set

I know a tailstock drill chuck was highly recommended but they did not have one in the MT2 that my lathe has for the tailstock, and I don't understand that stuff well enough yet to piece together my own from multiple parts. I can order one online.

I also know I will need to dismantle the lathe, clean it, and add oils and greases and who knows what else, but grizzly doesn't carry that stuff, nor could they tell me what that stuff is... so I'll have to defer to the expert judgment, or the manual, and try and get something from a local automotive or home depot or something

I will need a grinder to start shaping the bits, and it was a belated realization that I got cobalt bit blanks, that might bite me in the buttocks I am sure. I may order some HSS ones if it's recommended. I also need to get a hacksaw at least, and a chunk of metal to turn into little chunks of metal. The workbench won't likely be finished until Sunday, so I'm in no particular rush at the immediate moment, and I still have a whole lotta cleaning to do in the garage (soon to be 'shop') anyway.

all told, for $956 after tax, I believe I made out without giving away the entire bank, and can make some use out of everything, even if not right away (ie, the cobalts)

-- Ryan


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 1, 2012)

Ryan,

Don't panic, your cobalts will be just fine. They are just one step up from HSS, and you can grind and treat them exactly the same.

Don't just dive in and start stripping down. Take each piece individually, and don't go onto the next assembly until the one you have off has been cleaned, lubricated and adjusted.

General purpose lubricating oil for where you have sliding small bits, like tailstock ram, handles etc. A medium weight hydraulic oil (32 in it's code) is what is usually recommended, but a cheap multigrade will do almost as well. 
For your main slideway oil, you really do need to use the correct stuff. It usually has a 68 in it's code, and is called, when you do a search for it, believe it or not, slideway oil. 

Do NOT use WD 40 or 3in1 oil, they are for lubricating door hinges, not lathes.

A can of spray on chain or gear grease can be very handy for lubing up your change gears (cluster at the back end of the headstock) and, if you can easily get to them, the internal gears on your headstock spindle.

Just take things steady and you won't go far wrong.


John


----------



## mklotz (Jun 1, 2012)

Not to tread on what John wrote but...

Slideway oil in the US will probably be called "way oil". It's available from Enco...

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=505-1987&PMPXNO=945479

in one (US) gallon containers and can, I believe, be shipped.

Eschew any advice to use chain saw bar oil (with or without various redneck additives) for lathe ways. Also, WD40 is not a lubricant. Useful for displacing water (its original purpose) and removing labels, it is not something you want to use in lieu of real lubricants.


----------



## steamer (Jun 1, 2012)

Wot they said!

Vactra #2 way oil is kinda heavy for a small lathe, but it works.

I'm certain other 7X users will pipe in........ :

Dave


----------



## Sshire (Jun 1, 2012)

If you didn't live on the other side of the country, I'd be more than happy to have you stop by and pour off a qt from my gallon of Vactra 2 way oil. It appears that it will last me 2 lifetimes.
The tech guys at Grizzly (phone them, they are very helpful and delighted to answer questions) told me to use 30 weight Mobil 1 for everything but the ways. No substitute for way oil. So far so good. 
Based on my experiences, you will buy a certain amount of:
A. The wrong thing
B. Something you already bought 
C. Something you are sure you will need, but find you never use.
D. Something you are sure you will never use, but 6 months later it's the ideal solution for some problem.

Enjoy. As John said, take the disassembly slow and be meticulous with the cleanup. Be especially watchful for casting sand and other things which cannot be good for your new lathe.
The real plus (other than getting the lathe clean), is that you will have an excellent understanding of how everything interacts. When something either feels wrong or sounds wrong, you'll have a pretty good idea of the solution. 
One other thing. Lots of light is a good thing and a safety item as well. Lastly, you did get safety glasses, didn't you??

Best
Stan


----------



## lazylathe (Jun 1, 2012)

Welcome to the club Ryan!!!

As Stan has mentioned take the disassembly slow.
And the casting sand...
Sometimes they paint over it and it looks like part of the casting.
I found this out with my vise.
Some areas were nice and crisp while the opposite side looked rounded and smooth.
A poke with a screwdriver revealed the sand!!
It comes off easily and is best found before switching anything on.

Once again congratulations!!!

Andrew


----------



## steamer (Jun 1, 2012)

That would appear to be a great list of accessories!  Glad you got the 4 jaw....most overlook or don't go for it and that is always a mistake.  You'll find that a 4 jaw will hold just about anything!  And as concentric as you want it to be.

Vactra #2 is it then!  I use that on my lathes ( the 12 and the 9 ) and it works well

Mobil 1 for everything else. Interesting!

A inexpensive (not cheap mind you) will round that out.  Expect a care package in your inbox.... ;D

Your on your way Ryan.....onward! ever forward!

Dave


----------



## ProdEng (Jun 1, 2012)

There is a very good machine preparation guide available here http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/projects.aspx The one you need is the C3. I followed the advice offered and it made the job a lot easier.

Jan


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 1, 2012)

I have read enough engine build logs here to know the 4-jaw is a frequently used alternative to the 3-jaw, even when the 3-jaw would suffice. also the 4-jaw appears to be an absolute requirement for any multi-cylinder engine's crankshaft, so there's that, too. Also read somewhere that a 4-jaw has less runout than a 3-jaw, so... hey maybe it will suck to set it up, but if it's more accurate, who am I to argue?

My next steps are to clean out the garage, I have a ton of stuff piled up against the wall I will be putting the workbench on. Then I'll be inventorying the lathe crate, and doing preliminary inspection. Disassembly will probably start next weekend. I am a reader - I will read the manual front, back and sideways before I do anything. Also will take a look at Jan's link, and some other stuff before digging into it.

Dave - 





> "A inexpensive (not cheap mind you) will round that out.  Expect a care package in your inbox.... Grin"


 ... a inexpensive what? Also mobile 1 ... automotive motor oil? particular weight?

- Ryan


----------



## Sshire (Jun 2, 2012)

Ryan
Mobil 1 10W-30


----------



## steamer (Jun 2, 2012)

A bench grinder Ryan....and inexpensive one.....not a cheap one

That means look around at good deals for the best quality you can get....The tool rests should be something other than bent sheet metal angle brackets that look too flimsy to hold up a small painting on the wall of your living room,,,,, :

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 2, 2012)

Inventory of lathe box complete, nothing missing there. Not looking forward to cleaning up all that gunk. New shopping list : Simple Green, some toothbrushes, possibly some bottle brushes, a bunch of shop rags, and a couple buckets. Plus some drop cloth or old towels or something to set the lathe on while I scrub it, so I don't ruin my nice shiny workbench.

Though upon closer inspection of my other goodies, I discovered that while my receipt says G9788 - 4pc measuring tool set, the item they gave me was a G9778, a digital tubing micrometer. While I can see how this might occasionally be useful, I'm struggling with the whole 'honesty' thing. The tubing micrometer is a $105 item, the 4pc measuring set I was expecting was only $41...

Do I keep the tubing micrometer, and just go buy another measuring tool set (or just a regular micrometer, as I already have a digital caliper, and machinist's square, and a 10ths/100ths, 32nds/64ths 6" scale...).... hmm

- Ryan


----------



## Mosey (Jun 2, 2012)

From the point of view of this beginner, I would buy the best Swiss, Japanese, or American made 0-1" digital micrometer I can afford. At least $125.00. Or buy a used one from EBay of same quality. You'll have it for the rest of your life, use it every day, and depend on it like the rock.
I did (Mitutoyo) about 15-20 years ago, and am glad every time I pick it up. I have filled in with the larger mechanical ones 1"-3", later from EBay, and got some almost new Starrett, Lufkin, etc. for $35-50.00.
I believe in the truth of the saying "buy cheap, buy twice".
I also have a 23 year old Sears 1/3 hp bench grinder that I wish would die so I can replace it with something good, but it just keeps going. Damn!


----------



## mklotz (Jun 2, 2012)

The typical hobbyist doesn't need a tubing micrometer. On the rare occasion when one needs to accurately measure a tubing wall thickness, one can buy a fitting for an ordinary micrometer. It consists of a precision steel ball that is held to the micrometer anvil with a neoprene boot.


----------



## steamer (Jun 2, 2012)

A standard micrometer would be more useful....let your conscience be your guide 

Dave


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 2, 2012)

just don't want to take that long trip back up there just for one little tool trade. i will call them during the week and report the problem. perhaps they'll pay shipping to let me ship it back.

- Ryan


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 4, 2012)

Workbench complete, lathe lifted up onto it, but still need to clean the bugger. tons of gunk and fun.

Workbench is fairly square, but is not level. it's in a garage, i didn't really expect it to be level. Looking at options for leveling, and I never really liked shims, so the following was suggested :

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2053&site=ROCKLER

I would need 2 sets, and have 2 spares at the end of it, as I have 6 legs and they are only sold in sets of 4. however it allows more solid footing than legs balanced on shims, and is a bit more precise than shims. Still thinking on it.

As for the lathe - does it need to be leveled? seems to me everything is relative to the ways, not the bench, so as long as it isn't *twisted* it shouldn't matter if it's level.

Am I wrong?

- Ryan


----------



## Mosey (Jun 4, 2012)

Leveling of the bed front to back is very important. Many lathes have leveling screws built-into the bed at the tailstock end.


----------



## rebush (Jun 4, 2012)

Ryan: I'm sure you don't like shims, but, if you build good sturdy legs I think adjustable leg levelers are a step backwards. I'd use wooden shims and a little PL-400 or simular adhesive on the shims, trim off the excess shim stock, and put a bead of adhesive around each leg. Once the bench is level it makes leveling the lathe easier. Roger


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 4, 2012)

Mosey  said:
			
		

> Leveling of the bed front to back is very important. Many lathes have leveling screws built-into the bed at the tailstock end.



Mosey, can you explain why? I'm struggling to understand what could possibly go wrong if it's not level - leveling to gravity shouldn't have a lot of effect when the part's spinning and its gyroscopic forces are largely canceling gravity's affect on it anyway.

I know I'm missing something, I just can't place it.

- Ryan

Edit: also flipped through lathe manual again - nothing in the manual suggests leveling it, nor any of the troubleshooting things say to check for level


----------



## Admiral_dk (Jun 4, 2012)

There has been some arguments about it earlier on this forum and most believe that the only way to set up your lathe is having it totally leveled horizontally - it will work in other directions too, it's just harder to set it up so there's no twisting forces in the chassis.


----------



## steamer (Jun 4, 2012)

What the Admiral said....

Southbend themselves only look at the bed level front to back.  This was to remove twist.

What you will run into is that a precision level, if it's turned very far off level across the vial, the accuracy will be reduced.

It's easiest to just level it in both directions...which takes the guess work out of all of it.

Dave


----------



## Mosey (Jun 4, 2012)

I think that the reason behind leveling (front to back) is this, if you level one end and then the other, you know that they are parallel to each other. How else could you know they are parallel? That is the objective... that they are parallel and have no twist. Twist will produce a tapered product. And yes, South Bend calls for leveling front to back only.


----------



## Ken I (Jun 4, 2012)

The machine was designed & built level - its simply good practice to do so - I bought a 0.02mm in 1000mm precision spirit level (I install machines and have to be professional about it).

Sure a lathe will work all over the place - but - and this is a very big but... if you bolt it down skew and impart a twist into your bed, not only will you screw up its accuracy but long term that twist will become permanent. 

Good practice never hurts.

Ken


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 4, 2012)

Ryan,

I have had to straighten out a few of these little lathes, where people had used them straight out of the box and used the four rubber feet that they sit on.

The lathe acts like the rubber they are sitting on, flexing all over the place and they do take on a permanent twist, like Ken has mentioned. I had to machine the twist out of them and get them straight again.

All that is really needed is to take off the rubber feet and bolt and shim the lathe, with it's drip tray, onto a piece of thick, flat kitchen worktop. That will keep it straight and without twist, as long as you shim the twist out in the first place. I did the same thing with my little Myford lathe (about the same sort of size as the mini lathe), well over 25 years ago, and it is still cutting spot on in my friends workshop.

It is the twist that is the killer, but getting it level all round does help in keeping your machining true.

They can be made into a fantastic little precision lathe, if a bit of care is taken in the initial setup.


John


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 4, 2012)

thanks all for the inputs. I was uncertain on whether I should use the feet or bolt it to my workbench itself, guess that answers that question as well =)

Though I would need to find some way to seal the bolts. Silicon breaks down in some oils... maybe I can find some rubber washers or something.

Love this place. So many different levels of expertise and experience, you often get more info than you wanted, but there's always someone willing to help =)

- Ryan, who has a lot of long workdays ahead and won't get much done.


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 9, 2012)

Well, the weekend is here, but seeing as I work nights and live in a quadplex home, I have to be careful about noise during my 'day'. Most of my shop work will be limited toa few hours a day at most, in the hours between 7am and 10am or so.

Friday morning I spent some time setting up for cleaning, and hanging the shop light I'd purchased during the week. Unfortunately while the light's box says it comes with mounting hardware, it does NOT come with the cup hooks to hang it from the rafters by its chains, so I had to delay its hanging a bit. Got the cup hooks later in the day but was too tired to hang it by then.

Did start dismantling the lathe as well, a little here and there, and learning what goes where and guessing as to why. I have a lot more cleaning than I expected. After annoying steamer with a PM ;D I came back and re-read this entire thread and found most of the questions I'd asked him already answered.... sometimes I swear I would forget my brain if it weren't permanently attached.

Simple Green just isn't cutting it, and after following some links and links from those links and more links, I've decided to grab some kerosene for the cleanup. The lathe's own instructions recommend a solvent/degreaser, but kerosene evidently does the trick nicely, and should be easily available in the morning (The other drawback to night life, nothing is open! But I can't work in the shop without light anyway)

I have settled on the EZ as my first engine, and gave up trying to find a local metal supplier with a good reputation and just went ahead and ordered from OnlineMetals.com -- and found out, on the shipping options page, that they are local! Well. sort of. they're in Seattle, about 30 minutes away. Still, for a larger order that'll have a heavier shipping cost, I can just swing down and pick it up for no shipping charge at all. I placed an order for about 2-3 times as much as I'll need for the EZ, and got the shipment the next day by standard ground UPS. No complaints there! Did forget to order the flywheel material but I can probably 'find' a 'cutoff' from standard shim stock at work and just sand or face off the primer. *cough*

Still on my shopping list is a drill chuck for the tailstock, a live center, some way oil, and center drills... I think I may make another trip up to grizzly this week to return the erroneous tube micrometer, and cross off the rest of that shopping list. Still in the market for a Bench grinder, and then I'll need a drill press (might have a lead at work for one for $50, but the guy is in europe on vacation), and a bandsaw. Right now I have a hacksaw, and need the exercise anyhow.

I can take the parts to work for drilling in our drill press there, if I can't fit the parts in the 4-jaw for drilling with the tailstock. For that matter, I can bring aluminum parts in for cutting on the bandsaw at work, too.

so really it's just a matter of cleaning the lathe! and taking pictures. Must remember the pictures.

- Ryan

PS: (which stands for Post-Script, or something added after the original writing, for those who never knew that) Sorry for the rambling. I tend to do that when I've had lots of sleep followed by lots of caffeine, and a bit of excitement over a project.

Mental Note for shopping list:
- parting-off bits. these could be important.


----------



## steamer (Jun 9, 2012)

No annoyance Ryan....one step at a time.....think about what your doing.....and you'll get there.

Dave


----------

