# Radial Bi Rotary Engine



## frankydevaere (Mar 2, 2011)

What's in a name 

A idea popped up and i build a waste-prototype of a new kind of bi-rotary engine mounted in fixed outer-ring ( kind of Wankel ), and it worked ( until eventually it blow up, testing how long it would last )
Someone told me the idea was brilliant and advised me to patent it, so i did.

Now i am rebuilding it a little bigger, and more good looking.

I'm planning to put images on this forum , if that is OK .

the principle : [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZqCdNU8MlA[/ame]

a lot of info : http://www.wix.com/devaere/radial-bi-rotary esp section WHITE PAGES ==> FAQ and FAMILY ( with a lot of patents )

hope you enjoy.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Mar 2, 2011)

Very interesting and be carefull.
The motion of the pistons is very much like a Fairchild Caminez engine and it was given a try for aircrafts many years ago.
Problem with the scheme was the reaction torgue or delivered torque reverses two times per rev for all four pistons simultaneously giving a very rough engine.
You may need to have two systems displaced 90 degree on output shaft ie 8 cylinders to have a smooth engine.


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## BillTodd (Mar 2, 2011)

The Caminez was cam engine with a lot of extra reciprocating mass from the roller cam followers.  

This Devaere design should suffer less from vibration, but quite how the high surface speed / high pressure cylinder seal is going to work will prove interesting


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 2, 2011)

There is no out of balance mass in the Caminez design. Niels is talking about torque due to cylinder pressure.


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## BillTodd (Mar 2, 2011)

> There is no out of balance mass in the Caminez design. Niels is talking about torque due to cylinder pressure.


No, the vibration (torque) is not due to cylinder pressure, it's due to the reciprocating mass - The light weight cam/crank & prop was slowed drastically (thus causing the torque) by the, relatively heavy, pistons & rollers as all four changed direction twice per rev.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 2, 2011)

Hmm, the guys on this forum sure know what they are taking about. :bow:

Yes , the Fairchild-Caminez Cam Engine was flying, and yes the weight of de rollerbearings doubled the weight of the pistons ( doubling Inertie )
The Caminez was not a rotary, it was a radial (rotating cam ).

In WOII a dutch airplane and motorcycle builder Joop Carly launched a engine called "Wondertol". It was a caminez with a fixed cam, a rotating cylinder bank AND with a fixed outerring. A predessor of Wankel. ( http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16914589/RBR/Joop Carleys Wondertol.jpg )
Porche didn't knew that and patented this : http://ip.com/patent/US3077870
Recently Jerry Hale built a working one, I think it's already mentioned on this forum : [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cck13dZV_x0[/ame]

Besides the different drive mechanism, my cylinder bank is rotating 5 times slower and in opposite direction than/of the crankshaft. *Bi-rotary*. Giving less wear on the - lets say - apex seals. 

This results in 12 ignitions per cylinder bank revolution, done by 5 revolutions of the crankshaft. 
Wankel has 3 ingitions per rotor revolution, done by 3 revolutions of the crankshaft.

In fact, this single block engine is 2.5 times a wankel ( 2.5 ignitions per 1 revolution crankshaft , wankel is 1 to 1 )


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## BillTodd (Mar 2, 2011)

> my cylinder bank is rotating 5 times slower than the crankshaft. Bi-rotary. Giving less wear on the - lets say - apex seals.



Ah yes, I see that now (missed it first time 'round fumbling for the volume control - why does you tube insist of starting videos at full blast???)  

Looking forward to your build log 

Bill


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## coopertje (Mar 2, 2011)

Very ambitious project, interesting design! I will be sure following along. Just to watch, I dont have clue about rotaries.... ;D

Bill, try to click once on the youtube, it will play normally. Only if you double click it will open in full screen.

Regards Jeroen


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## frankydevaere (Mar 2, 2011)

I just found out that the engine has a brother in Itali.

website : http://www.redbspa.com/english_index.html
articles : http://ralph-dte.eu/2010/12/14/motore-de-bei-a-pistoni-rotanti/

it's a rotary with a rather normal crankshaft as in radial engine and not a bi-rotary with engine balance


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 2, 2011)

Yes, of course. It's the force required to change the piston direction. How is this different than the typical four cylinder, other than the total weight of reciprocating components? The Caminez appears to have much greater stroke than this design. Page 579-580, "The Internal Combustion Engine In Theory and Practice- Vol.2", by CF Taylor, talks about 4th order vibration due to the two lobe design of the Caminez.


Is a prototype RBR being built?


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## frankydevaere (Mar 2, 2011)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> Yes, of course. It's the force required to change the piston direction. How is this different than the typical four cylinder, other than the total weight of reciprocating components? The Caminez appears to have much greater stroke than this design. Page 579-580, "The Internal Combustion Engine In Theory and Practice- Vol.2", by CF Taylor, talks about 4th order vibration due to the two lobe design of the Caminez.



I read that to. I don't know why there is a 4th order in the cam-mechanisme. In know in the ordinary crank mechanisme 1st and 2nd order. But i have them always balanced.

I choose for a short stroke :
- outer diameter as close as possible to the center = minimum velocity of the top-seals
- short stroke = high rpm. Together with the 1/5 gearing i have interesting rpm's. A propeller connected to the cilinder bank has efficiënt 1000 rpm while 5000 rpm at the crankshaft . Also for hybrids or generators, a 600 (1200) rpm cilinder bank is 3000 (6000) rpm crankshaft. Interesting rpms for electric AC motors.




			
				dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> Is a prototype RBR being built?



yes, all drawings are ready and I just started machining pieces.


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## BillTodd (Mar 3, 2011)

> How is this different than the typical four cylinder, other than the total weight of reciprocating components?



Quite a lot: 

The reciprocating mass of the Caminez engine (pistons roller etc.) is about twice the mass of the crank. Compare that to a typical car engine (remember only part of the con-rod's mass is reciprocating) .

The main difference can be seen in the piston acceleration (sorry for the rough sketch ) The conventional crank is asymmetric (exaggerated here - caused by the reaction of the relatively short con-rod) The cam produces a triangular shape, very peaky at BDC (i.e. rapid reversal - watch the above animation closely) but smoother a TDC.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

BillTodd  said:
			
		

> Quite a lot:
> 
> The reciprocating mass of the Caminez engine (pistons roller etc.) is about twice the mass of the crank. Compare that to a typical car engine (remember only part of the con-rod's mass is reciprocating) .
> 
> The main difference can be seen in the piston acceleration (sorry for the rough sketch ) The conventional crank is asymmetric (exaggerated here - caused by the reaction of the relatively short con-rod) The cam produces a triangular shape, very peaky at BDC (i.e. rapid reversal - watch the above animation closely) but smoother a TDC.



Of course, now i understand...

Bill, are you the same Bill mentioned in http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/cam-IC/cam-IC.htm ?


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## BillTodd (Mar 3, 2011)

> Bill, are you the same Bill mentioned in http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/cam-IC/cam-IC.htm ?



Yes that's me ;D Or as Doug once described me 'The leading Animator of Rotary Steam Engines' - ARSE for short 

Bill


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

BillTodd  said:
			
		

> Yes that's me ;D Or as Doug once described me 'The leading Animator of Rotary Steam Engines' - ARSE for short
> 
> Bill



LOL ;D and well done :bow:


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## BillTodd (Mar 3, 2011)

BTW The idea of slowing the rotary valve to improve seal life was used successfully on Redrupt's (Bristol Bus) Axial 9 cylinder engine (the second time I've mentioned it this week  ). He arranged his valve to have multiple ports and slowed it to 1/8th of the crank's speed.

Bill


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 3, 2011)

Never thought too much about a cam engine. I see that the accel at TDC would be great simply due to the radius from crank center. This could be improved by increasing the overall diameter of the cam but that's hardly suitable for an airplane engine, or any engine for that matter.

I think the most promising engine development today is the opposed piston engine by Ecomotors.

That Italian motorcycle engine looks like if you kept the revs up you wouldn't have to put your feet down at a stop light. Czysz designed his racing engine to have no gyroscopic precession.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

BillTodd  said:
			
		

> BTW The idea of slowing the rotary valve to improve seal life was used successfully on Redrupt's (Bristol Bus) Axial 9 cylinder engine (the second time I've mentioned it this week  ). He arranged his valve to have multiple ports and slowed it to 1/8th of the crank's speed.
> 
> Bill



yes, i noticed that. I was lurking around on this forum before i became a member. More info to be found on the Redrupts' sealing ?


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## BillTodd (Mar 3, 2011)

frankydevaere  said:
			
		

> yes, i noticed that. I was lurking around on this forum before i became a member. More info to be found on the Redrupts' sealing ?



The only info I have is in Bill Fairney's book , I'll re-read the chapter to see if there's anything that might be of interest.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> I think the most promising engine development today is the opposed piston engine by Ecomotors.



Don't think so. 2-stroke piston springs will always scrape oil into the ports, not meeting emission regulations. Detroit two stroke diesels are no longer in production, i think. Junkers , Napier-Delta and Rootes were building such opposed piston engines. 
Long time ago at high school, i played with a two stroke opposed axial barrel engine ( system Redrup, Bill just mentioned ) invented by a Belgian. Much later i found on the internet that it existed already a couple of times.( like the WISHON ROTARY-VALVE AXIAL ENGINE )

here it is : http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4391232.html

yes, the Italian is probably a gyroscope


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 3, 2011)

How are you keeping oil out of your ports?


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> How are you keeping oil out of your ports?


First I have to create a oil problem there. I'll try to explain.

Piston Rings :The three main functions of piston rings in internal combustion engines are:
1. Sealing the combustion chamber.
2. Supporting heat transfer from the piston to the cylinder wall.
3. Regulating motor oil consumption.
The gap in the piston ring compresses to a few thousandths of an inch when inside the cylinder head. Most automotive pistons have three rings: The top two whilst also controlling oil are primarily for compression? sealing (compression rings); the lower ring is for controlling the supply of oil to the liner which lubricates the piston skirt and the compression rings (oil control rings). It's this ring that is scraping oil in the inlet port of a two stroke. This RBR engine is just a normal working 4 stroke.

The top seal does not have a oil problem, because theoretically there isn't oil. However this is a compression ring that needs some kind of controlled lubrication for the same three reasons. 

That is where the low revolution of the outer-ring takes his advantage as Bill said, The value of that speed is lower than the average piston speed of a piston ( 20 m/s ). This means less friction , less wear , less oil (or oil consumption ) than a Wankel. This compression ring is also sitting in a much cooler environment than in a hot wankel rotor or piston witch has to get rid of his internal heat.( I HOPE  )

I hope that my English is understandable.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

frankydevaere  said:
			
		

> Of course, now i understand...
> 
> Bill, are you the same Bill mentioned in http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/cam-IC/cam-IC.htm ?



I think, my penny has dropped ( as we say in flemish ).
Acceleration is the Differential equation of velocity witch is the Differential equation of motion.
The Differential equation of the Differential equation of a perfect sinus is a sinus.
A crankshaft motion is practically a sinus. Because it isn't a perfect sinus we have a equation of second order ( two times alpha ).
The Differential equation of the Differential equation of a eight shaped lob ('cam) definitely not a sinus, probably has this acceleration of 4th order. Is there a mathematic on the forum ?


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## bigeasy (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi Franky
I am frenchman and I improve everyday my english

I have seen on the russia forum a similar engine than yours












This one the power 160 Hp  weight 63 kg
http://www.skyline.ua/DD-3_eng.html 
Is it your design?

I would like one for my Gyrocopter!

Thanks
René


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

bigeasy  said:
			
		

> Hi Franky
> I am frenchman and I improve everyday my english
> 
> I have seen on the russia forum a similar engine than yours
> ...



Holy s.., merde alors.
Where can i find the drivemechanism. Ou est-ce que je peux trouver l'entrainement ?
Thank you very much. Do you speak Russian ?


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## bigeasy (Mar 3, 2011)

The skyline engine has seven cylinders is not even number
It seems the drive mechanism is not the same on your project you use a even number
I did not find any other information
I don't speak Russian I use GOOGLE translate
René


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

bigeasy  said:
			
		

> The skyline engine has seven cylinders is not even number
> It seems the drive mechanism is not the same on your project you use a even number
> I did not find any other information
> I don't speak Russian I use GOOGLE translate
> René



Yes 7 cylinders , according specifications .

If they use a conventional radial drive mechanism, then this is the remake of the old mawen-bi-rotary engine, in my 3 inlet 3outlet configuration. Wonder why they use 2 sparks next to each other.






http://www.enginehistory.org/TM/htm/tmv6n1.htm


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 3, 2011)

Twin plugs and ignition indicate it's intended for aviation. Redundant ignition is standard in aviation.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 3, 2011)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> Twin plugs and ignition indicate it's intended for aviation. Redundant ignition is standard in aviation.



Of course. That's the reason. Safety first.


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## frankydevaere (Mar 4, 2011)

French car maker PEUGEOT has also patents on a water cooled radial bi rotary ( 1975). Yet another drive mechanism, not a conventional radial one and not my balanced one. 

http://www.google.de/patents?id=3Eg...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

It looks also very tiny. The cylinder rotor looks water cooled also, that are a lot of o- and v- rings. I'll stick to the air cooled. Things are difficult enough.


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## frankydevaere (Jan 15, 2012)

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZqCdNU8MlA[/youtube]


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## Till (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey Franky, have a look at this: 
http://floridaame.org/GalleryPages/g1m0075.htm

Edit: You've already found it in post #5


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