# Spark source



## flyingtractors1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi All. I'm determined to build an IC engine - a first for me, and am gathering up likely parts, components, etc. Would a Model T coil & 6 volt lantern battery be a good spark source to use for this venture? Would a condenser be needed somewhere in the circuit? Thanks. Ralph


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## Maryak (Jan 3, 2012)

Ralph,

Yes and Yes and Yes.







Best Regards
Bob


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks Bob, but I don't understand the diagram. Is everything grounded at the "motor"?  scratch.gif


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## stevehuckss396 (Jan 3, 2012)

flyingtractors1  said:
			
		

> Is everything grounded at the "motor"? scratch.gif



Yes but you can bond everything together and bring a single wire to the motor. No need to bring 3 wires to the motor.


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## RonGinger (Jan 3, 2012)

> Would a Model T coil & 6 volt lantern battery be a good spark source to use for this venture? Would a condenser be needed somewhere in the circuit? Thanks. Ralph



A model T coil usually refers to the type of 'buzz' coil that has a vibrating reed and generates many sparks.

The circuit shown looks more like the conventional spark coil with points and a capacitor.

Which kind of coil are you asking about? A model T type does not need an external capacitor, it has one built in.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Bob, yea; I get it. What function does the condenser serve? Thanks again. Ralph


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## portlandron (Jan 3, 2012)

The simple explanation for the condenser is to prevent the erosion of the points and the breaking down of insulation on the coil windings.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 3, 2012)

I found a buzz coil that delivers a pretty good jolt, and it makes a good spark too - when it's not grounded through me.  :-\  Thanks for the help. I'll play with it some more now that I've learned how to wire it - shuda asked sooner and spared myself the shock therapy.


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## jpeter (Jan 4, 2012)

How do you time a buzz coil? 
BTW, don't leave the condenser out. It won't work with out it. Need a resistor in the power wire too. You can buy coils with a built in resistor or add 10 ohms in series outboard. Get a high wattage one from Radio Shack.


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## RonGinger (Jan 4, 2012)

> How do you time a buzz coil?
> BTW, don't leave the condenser out. It won't work with out it. Need a resistor in the power wire too. You can buy coils with a built in resistor or add 10 ohms in series outboard.



I think you really don't understand a buzz coil. They simply need a contact point to close to supply DC. They do not need external ballast resistors or capacitors. They do have a capacitor inside the box.

In a buzz coil the vibrating reed on the end of the coil causes the primary coil to be interrupted many times per second. The spark plug sees multiple sparks, good for ignitions that may not be precisely timed, like model Ts.

The buzz coil went out of use when Kettering invented the modern coil. This coil makes just one big spark when the points open, because of the collapsing magnetic field. The coil is 'charged' during the time the points are closed. Thats caused dwell- remember dwell meters to set points?

A resistor is needed because the coil primary is very low resistance, and the current through it would be limited only by this resistance, particularly when the engine happens to stop with the points closed. While the engine is running the current through the coil is limited by the inductive effect- it takes time for the current to reach the max value, and when running the points open before they reach saturation of the coil.

The capacitor does help protect the points, but it is really there to store the charge from the collapsing magnetic field. Without it the field would see a relatively high resistance across the opening points and reduce the rate of drop of the voltage. A capacitor looks llike a very low resistance to the changing current. 

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettering_ignition_system for a more detailed explanation.


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## jpeter (Jan 4, 2012)

You're right, I don't understand the workings of a buzz coil. I was soliciting an explanation.

 So does the points start the coil buzzing and does it buzz until the points open? Seems like it'd use up a lot of battery and get pretty hot working like that. Does the buzz coil buzz all the time with the distributor cap providing the timing? How's it work?

My comment about the necessary ballast resistor and condenser was in regard to the Kettering ignition suggested in a previous post.

Sorry if I sounded curt.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 4, 2012)

So . . . just connect the battery (negative to ground) in series with the breaker points? Then one of the spark poles of the coil to ground and the other to the spark plug -- and that's it?


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## jpeter (Jan 5, 2012)

Here's a pictorial of a common setup.


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## RonGinger (Jan 5, 2012)

Again we have a diagram of a Kettering type ignition, not a buzz coil.

The Ford model T coil was housed in a wood box, about 2x3x5. Inside is a coil of wire on an iron core. There are two coils a primary and a secondary, as in the Kettering coil. But in a buzz coil at the end of the iron core is a set of points arranged so that when the coil is magnetized the points are pulled open. When power is applied the magnet pulls in whats called an armature, which is fixed on a leaf spring and has the contact points at its end. 

When current is applied the coil becomes a magnet and breaks the circuit. Current stops flowing, the field collapses, and a high voltage is induced in the secondary. But when the magnetic field drops the spring loaded armature again closes the points, current flows again and the cycle is repeated. This is exactly like a doorbell or buzzer. As long as power is applied to the coil it continues to buzz, at a maybe 1khz rate.

The distributor only switched the low voltage- there was a coil for each plug. When the points closed many sparks were generated in the plug, hopefully at least one of them ignited the mixture.

Besides ignition for model Ts they had a lot of other great uses. The high voltage sparks could be connected to many things, like car seats, urinals, door knobs, anything likely to be touched by an unsuspecting person. Not that I every played such pranks, Ive only been told about them ;D

They were/are often used on single cylinder farm type engines.


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## RollaJohn (Jan 5, 2012)

It is my understanding that the Kettering type ignition's coil started out as a 6 volt coil. When the automobile manufacturers went to the 12 volt system for the advantage of the 12 volt starter motor over the 6 volt motors, they used the same 6 volt coil and fed it through a ballast resistor. This resistor was mounted external to the coil and was quite noticeable. Some manufacturers decided to 'pretty up' the installation by enclosing the resistor within the coils can. These are marked as 12 volt coils. Others did away with the large ballast resistor by using a special resistance wire to connect the battery to the 6 volt coil. This only caused problems when an unknowing shade tree mechanic would replace this special wire with an ordinary copper conductor thus feeding the 6 volt coil with the full 12 volts from the battery.

Just a little trivia.

Rolla


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## Blogwitch (Jan 5, 2012)

Have you ever thought of using a magneto?

Totally self contained, no batteries, coils etc. Just mechanically fit to the engine and away you go.

This is the magneto I built lashed up to run a friend's Webster.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jROBQpAMZg&feature=related[/ame]


John


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks Jim. That drawing is a work of art and easy to understand. I'm a visual learner, and your sketch talks to me in terms that are easy to grasp.  Ralph


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks John. I like that Webster with the magneto ignition, but I can't get quite enough information from the video. Do you have - could you sketch out a more descriptive / detailed drawing or pictures? Ralph


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 5, 2012)

Hi Ron. Good explaniation. I think that I understand it. That's why it's called a "Buzz" coil - the "points" are part of the unit, and I see that there is a wrapped cpacitor in the box ( just had to take one apart). And now I have other ideas for the use of a buzz coil - not that I would do any thing sneaky, but I've now heard of such things and can imagine others. :idea:


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## Blogwitch (Jan 5, 2012)

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4313.0

John


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## shred (Jan 5, 2012)

FWIW, this is a buzz coil:







I found it at a garage sale a while back and it sits on my desk awaiting a suitable engine or prank.


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## jpeter (Jan 6, 2012)

I got curious so I read the Wiki on the buzz coil. I got a few of my questions answered like how they managed the high current usage of continuous buzzing. Turns out the model T had a generator of sorts (alternator maybe). Back in the day I don't think diodes were yet invented, at least not the type to be carried around in a model T, nor was there any mention of a commutator. Anyway, the driver switched it over to generator power after getting the engine started. BTW, the batteries were dry cells and did not get charged by the generator. They referred to the generator as a low voltage magneto but it looks like a generator to me. Seems the engine was started on the battery and run at low rpm but at speed the driver saved the battery by switching to generator power. At rpm the buzz coil didn't buzz. It only buzzed at no rpm or low rpm. The buzz coil lost out to the invention of the impulse magneto, the type that at low rpm holds the magnet back, then with the help of a spring flips it past the coil with with vigor at the proper time to give the magneto spark at starting rpm. The Kettering ignition invention, aided by the invention of the flyback transformer, hurt the buzz coil too. Interesting stuff don't you think.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for the research, Jim. It is very interesting and speaks to the inginuity of the industrial era and yet seems quite advanced today.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Wow, John! That magneto seems more complicated than my skill level and equipment can manage. I salute you for that accomplishment.


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes, Shred. That's exactly the kind of "buzz coil" I have. Antiquated as it may be, I think I'll try to use it as a spark source on my IC engine attempt. Think it will work?


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## Blogwitch (Jan 7, 2012)

Ralph,

I didn't put the magneto up here to intimidate anyone, especially yourself.

I was just showing that there are alternatives to the 'big box under the engine' scenario.

At one time, magnetos were used a lot more than the conventional battery/points setups, especially on model aircraft engines, purely because they were self contained on the engine itself.

It now seems that tiny electronic boxes have taken over.


John


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks John. I am amazed and impressed. Your skill level is something to aspire to. I do much like the Old Stuff and tend to understand it better. That's why we build (try to) old timey type engines. Yours is the ideal for me. Maybe I can grow to that level. Thanks again.  Ralph


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## flatbelter (Jan 9, 2012)

Yea, about them tiny electric boxes... I just killed at least one pick up, maybe two (hall sensors) by flooding out the engine. Seems flooding the gap on the plug will feed back enough voltage to toast the sensor. (airplane engine mounted upside down.) I don't have that trouble with the stock magneto... 

Kind of disappointing end for the day as this is the heavily modified 26cc weed wacker engine that I've been playing with for the past month.(Wanted to start it today with the new ignition) Looks like I will have to go salvage the hall sensors off an old computer drive then flip the engine spark plug up so it doesn't flood the plug again. 

Good luck with your salvage quest.

FB


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## jpeter (Jan 9, 2012)

flatbelter  said:
			
		

> Yea, about them tiny electric boxes... I just killed at least one pick up, maybe two (hall sensors) by flooding out the engine. Seems flooding the gap on the plug will feed back enough voltage to toast the sensor. (airplane engine mounted upside down.) I don't have that trouble with the stock magneto...
> 
> Kind of disappointing end for the day as this is the heavily modified 26cc weed wacker engine that I've been playing with for the past month.(Wanted to start it today with the new ignition) Looks like I will have to go salvage the hall sensors off an old computer drive then flip the engine spark plug up so it doesn't flood the plug again.
> 
> ...



To help save sensors add about 20,000 ohms in series with the sparkplug. That'll save a lot of sensors. Also you can buy them from Digikey for about $0.50 ea. 

If I was building my first engine I'd put a small set of points, say from a 1960 Chrysler product, on it, put a round cam with a flat spot on the crankshaft, hook up an automotive coil and condenser as mentioned earlier and get it running. After it's running is when, if still in the mood, I'd fool around with the more exotic ignitions. Beginners often have lots of issues getting engines running. The way I see it, dealing with a fussy ignition is a problem not needed at the start.


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## flatbelter (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks Jim,

Digikey is a good source for electronic parts and they ship fast too. 

I only burned one sensor, the second one is still working so far. However the engine has some other issues that need to be fixed before I can try starting again. (prop adapter problems)

This is my third run at converting a weedwacker engine to airplane use and the most ambitious. Only the piston and rod assembly remain stock. It is however the first time trying to use the "magic box" electronic ignition. Hopefully I'll get it all squared away soon.


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## jpeter (Jan 10, 2012)

flatbelter  said:
			
		

> Thanks Jim,
> 
> Digikey is a good source for electronic parts and they ship fast too.
> 
> ...


You tryiing to use one of those cheap Hobby King electronic ignition units? I've been giving them a look over and wondering if they'd be worth experimenting with. They are surly cheap enough.


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## flatbelter (Jan 10, 2012)

jpeter  said:
			
		

> You trying to use one of those cheap Hobby King electronic ignition units? I've been giving them a look over and wondering if they'd be worth experimenting with. They are surly cheap enough.


 
Yes I am! : It's the same $30 ignition pictured in the "$30 ignition" thread. They get mixed reviews, but many users seem to bake them with higher than spec voltage. For the price, I thought I would try it. (it's a weight issue, trying to save some oz off an RC plane)

Anyway, it looks nice in the bag, mounting was easy except my spark plug is the wrong size. (I'm using a standard Champion J8??) It makes a nice looking spark when hand propping. 

Ground it real good to the engine (using the shield cable) and it might be worth experimenting with. 

I got lucky, HK had a replacement crank for their XY 26 cc engine that came with the prop adapter and a trigger magnet for $17. I wanted to play with the crank but the prop adapter fit on the engine I already had except for the crank nose thread was different. I made a new threaded insert and was ready to go. (making engine parts that have to spin a 8000+ RPM on a lathe from the 1890's is real exciting especially ones with multiple chuckings and small internal threads)

Is it worth playing with? Yes I think so. I probably wouldn't have killed the hall sensor if I had the correct spark plug and hadn't modified the high voltage lead. 
What can you buy these days for $30 anyway?

FB


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## flyingtractors1 (Jan 29, 2012)

Has anyone tried the "Blokker Spark Igniter" that Jan Ridder has used. They became extinct, but similar type igniters have become available. Jan lists the following sites where these "new" ones can be found. 

http://www.amazon.com/BATTERY-OPERA...=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.sourcingmap.com/plastic-...gle&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=usfroogle

http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Barbecue-lighter/p/sm/1041828646.htm


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## Ed T (Feb 2, 2012)

I did a lot of looking for the "Blokker" lighter and, I think they are still available in Europe. They appear to be the same device sold all over the place in England under the brand name "MasterClass". (Not sure if that's a social commentary or a cooking school). I have also looked at the ones Jan mentions on his site. Unfortunately, two of them appear to be bulk wholesalers so if you want a 1000 or more it'll work. The sourcing map one, I think, seems to offer onesies, but they ship from Asia somewhere so I haven't bitten the bullet yet. Still looking. It seems like a nice set up for our type of application.


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## MikeA (Feb 3, 2012)

Hello all,

As mentioned by flyingtractors1, indeed there are additional sources for these gas igniters! In discussions with Jan Ridders he's been advised these or similar are not readily available in Europe and much the same here in the USA. 

The primary areas where these are readily available are in Asia/India where use of bottled gas for cooking is widespread and I am checking with some contacts in China as to ease of availability. Indeed, I have found the wholesalers who would be pleased to sell me 50,000 but that might be a bit too much inventory for my personal use!

The units sourced from Amazon arrived several weeks back, and although they could be used they are unbelievably poor quality. 

I just received the units from sourcingmap yesterday (free shipping from Hong Kong takes about three weeks).

The good news is this second set appears to be at least as good, perhaps even better, than the 'Blokker Spark Igniter'!

Here are some shots of the partially disassembled unit from Hong Kong: note the transformer/bobbin is 'potted' which should make it that much more rugged for our purposes. 

I've hooked one up to a miniature spark plug and it fires perfectly. 

If anyone has any questions I'll try to respond.

All the best,
Mike


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## Ed T (Feb 3, 2012)

Glad to see you were actually able to get something that looks reasonable. It looks like the circuitry is a bit different than the Blokker. More stages in the, I think, "multiplier coil" and a bit simpler on the front end. I guess I'll have to get a couple and see if I can get my sparky buddies to analyze it for me. Thanks, Mike, for doing the leg work and taking some of the upfront risk. I'll let everyone know if I find out anything useful.


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## MikeA (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello Ed,

Glad it is of interest to someone! I'm building a couple of IC engines (various stages of completion) and will the first to admit I know nothing about 'electrikery', so when I saw this solution on Jan Ridders web site I thought it was the answer to a prayer!

In my conversations with Jan, (a great designer and generous beyond belief) he commented he had heard from people all over that the 'Blokker' type gas igniters were not available anywhere. After some extensive web searches I was able to come up with a few sources - none really convenient other than Amazon, and the igniters from them I can not recommend. 

It seems this sized ignition system is much more fitting for the miniature IC engines.

All the best,
Mike


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## flyingtractors1 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hi All. I was able to order and have received one each of the lighters from 1) Amazon ( cam-06955) and 2) the sourcingmap.com kitchen lighter from China. The cam-06955 does not work - even with a new battery, and it isn't worth the trouble of returning it nor trying to "fix" it. The one from China took 2 weeks to arrive, but it works and delivers a nice spark that might just work as a source for a small IC engine. Now all I need is the engine. Ralph


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## MikeA (Feb 8, 2012)

Hello Flyingtractors1,

In all likelihood you might need to redo the solder joints on the one you got from Amazon - I had the same problem but after redoing the joints it worked fine. No question the one from China is better quality.

Mike


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## lee9966 (Feb 26, 2012)

I bought three of the Amazon ones. The batteries in the package were corroded to the point the case was expanding. None of them worked at first, but cleaning the battery contacts got them all working. These things have been sitting in a warehouse somewhere for a looong time.

The circuit is very similar to the Blokker, except for o e critical thing as far as I can see. The diode that is removed in Jans circuit is a resistor in these units. I don't understand how that can work since the Blokker appears to use reverse voltage on the diode as a "switch". My electronics knowledge I'd limited, so I am stumped. The two transistors are the same parts as Jans though, and the power supply half of the circuit (oscillator iirc) is exactly the same.

I plan on taking one apart and redoing it with Jans final design. Most likely I will just end up letting the smoke out hehe

Lee


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## Ed T (Feb 26, 2012)

I got two of the sourcing map units last week. Below is extracted from some communication I have had with Jan Ridders in Netherlands.
 I determined that the circuits were very similar but the layout is different. The oscillator area was identical (except , of course, the transformer is just a lump so who knows?). In the trigger area the only difference I found was that he XMCR 1006 thyristor used on the Blokker unit was replaced with a PCR 606J sensitive gate SCR and the 2K resistor was replaced with a 1.8K resistor . After a bit of research, I decided the devices are very similar in function and that the resistor difference was unlikely to make a major difference. Oh, the 474nF capacitor was 150V rated up from 100V on the Blokker. So, this morning I went off to get some components and this evening I modified the board just as you recommend for the Blokker unit and, much to my surprise, it worked. Not sure how long it will work in actual use, but the initial results are promising.


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## solver (May 19, 2012)

Any info of the coils used on that circuit? According to Jan Ridders, primary coil's resistance is 0,5 ohms, and secondary has 450 ohms.

Those coils seem to be rather small, making them easier to build, without any specific winding tools.

One factor, that I miss, is the thickness of wire on both primary and secondary coil. 

If one knows the wire thickness, and resistance of coil(s), could it be possible to calculate amount(length) of wire?


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## solver (Jun 3, 2012)

One possible alternative for 'Blokker' circuit, might be one, that is used on an Electric flyswatter:







Don't know much about electronics, but I assume, that there is some similar factors on both circuits.

Their functions seem to be almost the same; by pressing the button(switch), both produce a high voltage spike.


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## solver (Jun 6, 2012)

Well, I ordered two of those 'flyswatters', just to take them apart, and test, if they can produce reliable spark, continuously.
In my case, it means using a rotating cam (could it get any simpler?). 

They haven't arrived yet, but in the meantime, I've done some research on the subject, and found out, that there is a large variation of quality of parts, between various brands.


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## tvoght (Jun 6, 2012)

For what it's worth, I just saw these flyswatters in a Harbor Freight flyer for - I think - $2.99 apiece.


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## solver (Jun 6, 2012)

What a coincidence - the ones I ordered, have just the same price, per piece, 2,99 .


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## shred (Jun 7, 2012)

I have one of the Harbor Freight swatters (the old yellow one). It does not generate a spark per-se, but instead charges the X and Y of the wire grid to a relatively high voltage (which may be lower than the other circuits as you don't want a spark without a bug completing the circuit). The one I have is quite slow to charge but newer ones might be better.


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## Admiral_dk (Jun 8, 2012)

I just stumbled across a possible source :

http://www.skpang.co.uk/catalog/spark-gap-igniter-48v-p-1105.html?zenid=bj2a8bb2m57julrmc4nqdufq67


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## solver (Jun 8, 2012)

Shred, I guess that the main difference between 'Blokker' and flyswatter circuit is, that latter discharges its voltage, not through 
the air, but through the insect(s), needing only some hundreds of volts to work.

Also, according to pics, that I've seen of the swatter circuit, it lacks the 'second stage', which is present in Blokker circuit, that multiplies its output to several kilovolts.

So, I assume, that the flyswatter circuit isn't usable on its own, to produce sparks, but then again, it has at least a small coil, that I'm interested to examine. Time will tell, when I get the ones, that I ordered.

Just looking an easier way to replicate that Blokker circuit. Hardest parts to make are -- you guessed it -- the coils.
--------------------------------------------
I took a look to my junk box, and found two miniature relays(12 volts), measured the resistance of both ones coils. They are of a different brand, one had ~400 ohms, while the other had ~700 ohms. Not sure though(yet), are they usable in this case.


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## solver (Jun 8, 2012)

Admiral_dk, the one you pointed out, seems to be more of a heavy duty sparker, since it requires hefty 3 amps.

But, anyways, it would be interesting to see, what's inside that unit.


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## mcostello (Jun 8, 2012)

Just to save someone some pain, if using the flyswatter for it's intended purpose swatting flies, if you swat a wasp the wasp will turn red hot and keep on living, and flying slowly, 2nd and 3rd dose of electricity was required. Seemed to take some memory jogging to remind it, it was dead..


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## solver (Jun 8, 2012)

Mcostelo, I assume, that this thread isn't about killing, or torturing any living thing.

Just to possibly adapt existing technology to produce spark for our engines. 

I'm aware, that there are some serious mods made for a standard flyswatter, that makes any size of an insect to explode.

But, let's leave it here. Original subject feels much better(at least for me).


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 8, 2012)

Maybe you could make friends with your local COP and borrow his Taser. I understand that they are a pretty powerfull source of electricity-----Kinda like an electronic flyswatter for people!!! *bang* *bang*


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## solver (Jun 12, 2012)

Flyswatters, that I ordered, have arrived. After short period of testing, I'm convinced, as Shred mentioned earlier,
that these circuits are not suitable to produce spark, except when fed through an additional coil or transformer.

Even then, charging time is way too long, as I can tell by listening the swatter, after pushing the button.

It makes rather high-pitched, ascending sound(that only us bats can hear ;D), when charging. 
Bit like the flash unit of the camera in the past.

Also, the coil in the circuit is a lot smaller, than I expected.


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## solver (Jun 14, 2012)

What comes to magneto, there just might be a compact alternative at:
http://www.epemag3.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=63&Itemid=38

'Wind-up Torch", that is powered by manually cranking the stepper motor, to make some lighting.

How about a stepper motor turned by an engine?

There was an article, in that very same magazine(EPE), about using a stepper motor as a dynamo on the bicycle.
Author mentioned something like: 'stepper motor makes a lot more power, even at slow speed, when compared to an ordinary dynamo'.

Just my two cents.


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