# Torch advice needed for boiler project



## crueby (Nov 3, 2014)

I am currently in the middle of a build for Kozo's New Shay locomotive (3 1/2" guage), and am in the middle of hard silver soldering up the boiler sections (build thread going over in the Work In Progress section of this site). It looks like I am hitting the limit  on the torches I have (handheld MAPP gas) - with this much mass and surface area of copper it is  wicking away the heat almost as fast as I can apply it. Got some missed  spots that need another pass, most of it took - just, but I have not even gotten to adding the endcaps yet...

I am  looking around at other torches, anyone have any suggestions for an  economical way to go? Has to be available in the US (seen some nice ones  that are common in UK/Europe but not here). Prefer to go with something  that could hook up to a standard 20lb propane tank, since I have one of  those (current model threads on it, they changed them a few years  back). I've seen some that are intended for roofing work that look like  they put out a lot of BTU's, could heat a large area up while I could  zero in with the mapp gas torch for the joint being soldered. Anyone use  that type? Better way to go?? Any advice appreciated!

Chris


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## littlelocos (Nov 3, 2014)

Hello Chris,
I have used the Sievert torches from Sweden for about 20 years now and can recommend them highly.  They are pricey, but well worth it.  They also work with the BBQ size tanks like you mention.

I bought mine from Sulphur Springs Steam Models; however, they are long out of business.

Last year, I picked up some nice parts & pieces on eBay; however, this takes time to wait for good deals.

Currently, most of the torch handles, regulators, hose, tips, etc. can be bought in the US from Best Materials.
See:  http://www.bestmaterials.com/Sievert.aspx
http://www.bestmaterials.com/soldering-tools-714.html


If you (or anyone else) is interested, I could list the tips, etc. that make up my set.  Kozo listed most of these in one of his books.  I could probably find his list if needed.

Hoping this helps,
Todd.

Todd & Joy Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com
www.facebook.com/littlelocos


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## gus (Nov 3, 2014)

Here is my 2 cents worth. I have gone over to 2xtorch burner for stronger heating power.And just bought this 3xtorch burner for Mapp Gas.


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## crueby (Nov 3, 2014)

Gus - never seen that style before - who makes it?
littlelocos - thanks for the links - am checking them out now...

Right now I am leaning towards one of the Sievert torch kits - can hook it up to the larger propane tank, which is a lot cheaper to run from than the mapp gas. Will still use the mapp for local heating, but the larger propane torch would let me heat up the bigger projects. I've seen a bunch of cheapo versions of them, but judging from the reviews it is hit/miss on quality/safety of them - not worth it in my book. Got a couple projects in the future maybe-pipeline that would benefit from the bigger unit too...


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## bobm985 (Nov 4, 2014)

Goss makes torches similar to Sievert, but made in the US.  Since the also make replacement welding and cutting tips for almost any known torch, your local welding supply should be able to help you.  Also: www.gossonline.com/
Regards,
Bob


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## crueby (Nov 4, 2014)

bobm985 said:


> Goss makes torches similar to Sievert, but made in the US.  Since the also make replacement welding and cutting tips for almost any known torch, your local welding supply should be able to help you.  Also: www.gossonline.com/
> Regards,
> Bob



Thanks Bob!


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## gus (Nov 4, 2014)

crueby said:


> Gus - never seen that style before - who makes it?
> littlelocos - thanks for the links - am checking them out now...
> 
> Right now I am leaning towards one of the Sievert torch kits - can hook it up to the larger propane tank, which is a lot cheaper to run from than the mapp gas. Will still use the mapp for local heating, but the larger propane torch would let me heat up the bigger projects. I've seen a bunch of cheapo versions of them, but judging from the reviews it is hit/miss on quality/safety of them - not worth it in my book. Got a couple projects in the future maybe-pipeline that would benefit from the bigger unit too...



Lost the cover. Will run over to the outlet where I bought this torch for the details. Believe the latest is 4xburner torch.


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## crueby (Nov 4, 2014)

Did a bunch of shopping around, found the sievert complete kit on sale discount for a good price, have one ordered. Thanks all for your help!


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## idahoan (Nov 4, 2014)

You might want to look into a Turbo torch;

http://www.amazon.com/TurboTorch-0386-0247-Turbo-Torch-Lp-1/dp/B000WTG5H6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1415125017&sr=8-2&keywords=propane+turbo+torch

I purchased one of the LP kits from one of the local welding suppliers then purchased the rest of the tips on ebay. It screws right onto my large BBQ tank and works great. That 1 tip puts out some serious heat.

Dave


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## idahoan (Nov 4, 2014)

Oops, sorry I was a little late on that one.

Dave


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## deverett (Nov 4, 2014)

One thing that has not been mentioned is using refractory material to conserve the heat you are putting in.  Traditionally, coke was used, but in these enlightened times pieces of silicon fire brick or rockwool are two items that could be used.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## gus (Nov 5, 2014)

crueby said:


> Did a bunch of shopping around, found the sievert complete kit on sale discount for a good price, have one ordered. Thanks all for your help!



Please post foto of new torch. May go into bigger boilers and the Mapp Gas Torches won't keep up.

Until recently,all silver brazing jobs was done on steel plate and heating up to red heat very slow and difficult until out of desperation I did a steel to brass job
on a block of Plaster of Paris and was surprised ,it came to dull red heat very fast. The silver rod turned liquid and went into job very fast and went around giving me the best brazing job to date. Will buy firebricks for a brazing hearth.


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## crueby (Nov 5, 2014)

Hi Gus, will do. It should be here in a couple days. The firebricks definitely help, both under and just behind the work to reflect heat back in.


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## crueby (Nov 5, 2014)

Too early in day, not thinking right, no need to wait for it to post picture.  Here is a link to torch:

https://www.bigrocksupply.com/store/p/5541-Sievert-DS2944-TurboRoofer-Detail-Kit.aspx

https://www.bigrocksupply.com/resiz...DS2944.jpg?lr=t&bw=1000&w=1000&bh=1000&h=1000


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## petertha (Nov 5, 2014)

idahoan said:


> You might want to look into a Turbo torch;. It screws right onto my large BBQ tank and works great. That 1 tip puts out some serious heat.
> Dave


 
I was looking at that a while back, maybe you can answer.. 

On the link description they make it sound like either Propane or MAP. Does that mean the same nozzle/tip will run either gas or, or you have to buy it configured for that gas specifically? (I have a vested interest in a real nice little propane pencil torch, I was thinking of screwing on a MAP cylinder since its air intake is about 3" upstream of the tip).

On links like these, they show typical flame temps: 3600F for propane, 3730F for MapPro & 5200F for PapPro + separate Oxygen. So the MAP is only ~4% hotter with air, unless there is some additional benefit from the 'swirl' configuration
http://www.bernzomatic.com/safety.html

So when we talk about serious heat, do we mean just a bigger firehose - ie bigger orifice = more gas = therefore btu's (as opposed to a hotter flame).


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## crueby (Nov 5, 2014)

Found out that the current MapPro gas sold in US since 2008 is a lot cooler than the old MAPP gas was, and now is only a bit hotter than propane. The only north american maker stopped producing the old stuff, and the new stuff is a very different mix...


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## idahoan (Nov 5, 2014)

petertha

The propane /mapp tips are the same they have a blue o-ring; the acetylene tips have a red o-ring.

As far as I know the flame is not any hotter or cooler tip to tip, just more or less BTU's.

There is a bunch of this type of thing on eBay; some priced ok and some ridiculously expensive.

Dave


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## petertha (Nov 5, 2014)

I know the original wish requirement was propane, but if there is any appetite to consider OA, this is real nice unit. I treated myself to the 'course' last year which kind of progressed up the heat cycle from basic soldering to silver to braze to weld on multitude of materials & joining materials. He also showed some annealing in between the plansihing machines, same torch, different tip. When I get to that requirement stage, it will definately be the weapon of choice just because of the size & broad utility. The OA bottles can be kind of a pain depending on where you live, but turns out I can source the 1/2 height on rental/fill-up basis reasonably, so that's my eventual plan.

https://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.php


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## crueby (Nov 5, 2014)

Petertha, there is a welding supplier near me that has added a teaching building, with classes in all types of welding, blacksmithing, glasswork, and pottery. I gotta get over there and take some classes soon. They have an open house with demos in everything next month that I am definitely going to be at. So many hobbies, so little time!


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## littlelocos (Nov 5, 2014)

The propane torches can put out a huge amount of heat and can quickly heat up larger items.  I scanned the Sievert Charts from my toolbox and posted them here.

The largest tip I have is the 2943 at 26000 Watts (88700 BTUH).  The smallest tip 3938 at 250 Watts (850 BTUH). 

My favorite heads are the 3523, 3526 as they have a flame that evenly heats all around normal and LARGE pipes.  1600 Watts (5460 BTUH) and 15500 Watts (52900 BTUH)  

The other favorite (and smallest of the lot) is the 3537 for small detail work (200 watts, 680 BTUH).  Usually, I run this one on the pilot valve only as its flame is smaller than the pilot flame on most of the other tips.

Enjoy,
Todd.

Todd & Joy Snouffer
Littlelocos Model Engineering
www.LITTLELOCOS.com
www.facebook.com/littlelocos


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## petertha (Nov 5, 2014)

crueby said:


> They have an open house with demos in everything next month that I am definitely going to be at. So many hobbies, so little time!



I hear ya. The only thing I should have mentioned is the midget model in particular seems to be getting harder to source do to some company/product line takeover, hence the link. My local welding place said they 'could get it in' but turns out at middleman $ premium for no reason & rather blank looks about tip selection. 

Anyway, after a few days of using the midget in a variety of ways, I went back on a friends regular OA handle with small tip like you would find in a typical starter kit & it just felt overly clunky big & bit coarser flame setting. Maybe not so much contrast welding steel, but for sure the finicky soldering stuff & alloys. OTOH, with simply bigger tip, the midget handily did chromoly tubing & plate, typical FS aircraft & hotrod stuff, so I think it has good utility range. Take this FWIW because this was my first rodeo. I have no vested interest in the company or distributers.


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## jasonh (Nov 6, 2014)

Check out luckygen's video- he makes what looks like a very effective propane/compressed air torch using bits and pieces. 

http://youtu.be/gQfIGz7Q5Lk?list=UUUfvmfsw2tH79cd13u_lbpw


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## Herbiev (Nov 6, 2014)

That's a great video. My project for today


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## petertha (Nov 7, 2014)

Video shows different torches small to large including Meco. What I never knew is a nice slender acetylene/air torch existed. That looks very intriguing to me. Note the temp & btu specs at the bottom of More Info tab. Those 'B' tanks is what my local welder place rents or you can buy & fill up, arrangements seem to vary place to place.

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Sm...e-and-Air-Torch-Kit-without-Tank/500105?Pos=6

http://youtu.be/q1ypCnkfjBU


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