# Porsche 917



## rhb (Jul 1, 2010)

Hello everyone

I keep myself busy with building a model car from scratch . The project is running for more than a year now. After a internet search I found a car which possible could be the subject I was looking for to build a model from. A Porsche 917 . A car with a air-cooled flat 12 cylinder engine. I wanted to make it in a scale of 1 to 5 and will try to use the same material as in the original car. 
I'm here to see if I can upgrade my skills in working with metal by getting advise of experts.


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## SAM in LA (Jul 1, 2010)

Your models look great.

The detail is incredable.

Please continue to share you photos.

SAM


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## T70MkIII (Jul 1, 2010)

I too am very much looking forward to seeing your progress, rhb. The engine parts are looking fantastic so far, and I can't wait to see how you tackle the hubs, uprights, transaxle ete etc. I want ultimately to do a 1/4 scale Lola T70MkIII with working engine, so your build is of particular interest to me.


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## LongRat (Jul 1, 2010)

That's exactly the sort of project I'm insterested in.
Your work on the crank/rods/pistons looks fantastic, got any more pics? Any of it during machining? Also impressive CAD work. How did you get the body shape into your CAD system?


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## rhb (Jul 2, 2010)

@SAM in LA 
Most of those are no photo's but drawings from my 3D-drawing and if there is any interest in specific parts I can generate them.

@T70MkIII 
Nice to hear I'm not the only fool. Good luck and especially in finding all the exact data of the original.

@LongRat 
When I'm busy in my workshop I'm a bad photographer but maybe later.
Creating the body shape was by far the easiest part. The content ofthe gearbox was far more complicated.

regards Rijk


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## ariz (Jul 2, 2010)

rhb you are working at such a high level that I'm intimidated and don't know what to say (and if you add that I don't speak/write english well, the words are at zero)

anyway that is a great project and you're proceeding quite exceptional :bow:


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## Kaleb (Jul 2, 2010)

So will this have a working engine so it can drive and race like the original? If so, will it be radio controlled?


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## Metal Mickey (Jul 2, 2010)

Hello RHB, I am a little confused now (not unusual) are the images of the engine and 'internal' parts of your work in machining or your work in CAD? Either of which is superb! I guess you use CAD professionally?

Anyhow most impressed! Look forward to photo's when you are machining. Keep the thread going....

Mike


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## rhb (Jul 2, 2010)

@Kaleb
If you read my introduction in the Welcome thread than you would know that my intention is to build a as good as possible 1 to 5 model of a Porsche 917. And I don't have enough skills to make a real 12 cilinder running engine.

@Metal Mickey
All the images except the one with the wooden box are renders of 3D drawings.
And no I'm not a profesional CAD user.

As written before this project is now going on for more than a year now. Most of the time was spend on finding technical drawings and dimensions of all the parts the car exist of. And still there are a few parts missing of which I can't find dimensions.

Actualy I don't need the 3D picture. But they are a kind of spin off and for many people better to watch than the technical drawings I needed to make the parts.
But of course they are of good help. 

As I don't have any technical building in metal work my pace in producing the parts of the engine is very low. And if you choose for 12 cilinder you have als find a way to make small series of the same parts. So my low pace is than divided by 12. But I keep on going. And I will take some photo's while machining if I don't forget

regards Rijk


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## Dirty_Vinylpusher (Jul 2, 2010)

Awesome work!
Nice choice of car too.

I'll be keeping an eye on this project.


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## rhb (Jul 3, 2010)

When starting this project I wondered where to begin.
I subscribed a Car forum, a Blueprint forum, a Model car forum and even a Computer Graph forum.  You can meet people and every one has his own interest and skills. One for drawing another for building models. Although I found a whole lot of knowledge and tricks no one of those fora could help me out with metal work in combination with a small engine. 
And now I m here on HMEM. Ive seen here a lot of small engines . So maybe I can find here some support when doing the machining of the Porsche engin and I'm out of ideas.


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## Bob Farr (Jul 3, 2010)

Rijk, 

Your craftsmanship and attention to detail are an inspiration. Please keep sharing pictures of your progress. 

Best regards, 

Bob Farr


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## T70MkIII (Jul 3, 2010)

Beautiful renders, rhb. Please keep 'em coming. Can I ask which blueprint forum you joined?


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## coopertje (Jul 3, 2010)

Hello Rijk,

Your CAD work is very impressive. I cannot imagine that drawing the body was the easiest part, I would not have a clue where too start! Looking forward to see your next steps. 

Groetjes Jeroen


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## SAM in LA (Jul 3, 2010)

Rijk,

It is truly amazing that you were able to create such realistic computer rendered pictures.

SAM


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## ttrikalin (Jul 3, 2010)

Superb CAD work.


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## rhb (Jul 3, 2010)

T70MkIII  said:
			
		

> Beautiful renders, rhb. Please keep 'em coming. Can I ask which blueprint forum you joined?


The forum was SMCars but the most important stuff came from individuals. But you only met them by means of joining a forum and asking. This way it made me possible to get in touch with the Porsche Museum. Unfortunatley they could not help me either. Later on I will tell the story about my search for technical drawings. 

regards Rijk


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## rhb (Jul 3, 2010)

coopertje  said:
			
		

> I cannot imagine that drawing the body was the easiest part, I would not have a clue where too start! Looking forward to see your next steps.



Try using decent blueprints from one of the blueprint sites and start practicing. Maybe the first 10 times it will become **** but one day you will see the light. There are enough examples how to draw a carbody on the internet.

mvgrijk


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## T70MkIII (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks Rijk - interesting website.


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## rhb (Jul 4, 2010)

Richard

You've seen this 
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/lola-t70-lounge/19604-canamsa-sa-stratch-build.html

mvgrijk


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## coopertje (Jul 4, 2010)

What about this one: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeUMDY01uUA[/ame]

javascript:void(0);

Regards Jeroen


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## T70MkIII (Jul 4, 2010)

rhb  said:
			
		

> Richard
> 
> You've seen this
> http://www.gt40s.com/forum/lola-t70-lounge/19604-canamsa-sa-stratch-build.html
> ...



I have thanks, Rijk - I've been watching Fred's build since he started, and we've emailed a few times over the years.


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## rhb (Jul 4, 2010)

Richard

Ok glad you did
To me this is the way to get real information. 

mvgrijk


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## rhb (Jul 4, 2010)

Now my main object, the engine was finished I did have a little problem. The next thing should be the gearbox. But it was a little big problem. I had no idea how the internals of such a gearbox look like. The small drawing I got only showing its principle. And also nowhere any pictures of an opened gearbox.


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## Dirty_Vinylpusher (Jul 5, 2010)

rhb  said:
			
		

> http://www.gt40s.com/forum/lola-t70-lounge/19604-canamsa-sa-stratch-build.html




Wow.
That's some project......
 :bow:






.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2010)

FHB even your cad rendering are an amazing project. 
Tin


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## rhb (Jul 6, 2010)

So now back to the gearbox. As said before I had no idea and no dimensions. There were no pictures. Probably the gearbox was so sturdy it wasnt needed to open it for restoration. And maybe also because no one is interested in those internals if one can photograph the complete car.  But then out of the blue some things happened. 
First of all I tried to get in contact with the just opened Porsche museum in Stuttgart. Only to find out if I should have success finding drawings in their archives after a car trip of 1200 kms . But probably I didnt have the right E-mail address because I got never an answer. Then I met someone on the internet telling me he was one of the few people who helped to reorganize the Porsche archives after the racing department was closed. He told me there were no drawings left. .So dark clouds are coming in.


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## crankshafter (Jul 6, 2010)

rhb
I wish I had a little bit of your ability in CAD :
There are some realy nice work put in this project. Have you start machinig parts for the 917?

PS: I had my son in law Porche356. 1953 cab. in my "hands" for some weeks this spring ;D nice old car. 
PS.PS Where are your location.
Best regards
Crankshafter


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## rhb (Jul 6, 2010)

crankshafter  said:
			
		

> Have you start machinig parts for the 917?
> PS.PS Where are your location.


Yes I did. I will come to that later. But first I wanted to explain a little bit one has to do to get information and to make some drawings with dimensions of everything.
I am from Holland

regards rijk


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## SAM in LA (Jul 6, 2010)

Rijk,

Your CAD renderings are so realistic. :bow:

Amazing, just amazing.

SAM


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## ChooChooMike (Jul 6, 2010)

Beautiful renderings which are a work of art themselves :bow: :bow:

Mike


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## rhb (Jul 7, 2010)

Some remarks about the car in general.
Porsche created in the late 1960 this supercar only to win le Mans thanks to an overseen gap in the regulations. If you are interested look around the internet and find an amazing story about great ideas, technics , racing skills and much more.
Porsche build 50 of those cars. Equipped with an Aluminum welded tube frame and a 5 liter 12 cylinder aircooled engine with around 560 bhp.and a fiberglass body. All with a minimum weight of 800 kg.


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## rhb (Jul 8, 2010)

With the drawing of most parts ready I then can start making the drawings needed while machining. So I start with resizing the drawings to 20% and breakdown the whole in to smaller drawings from which you can create all kind of dimensions you might wanted the use in the workshop. Print them and put them in a folder This is what it looks like.


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## idahoan (Jul 8, 2010)

Wow!

I watched all the videos last night of the 917 restoration by Gunnar racing; what an impressive piece of work! Thanks for posting the link.
Also as many have already said; your CAD work and renderings are superb.


Dave


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## doubletop (Jul 9, 2010)

Forget the scale model, get the Chinese to make a full size replica for you. You've done the hard part.......


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## kustomkb (Jul 9, 2010)

Man, that's a lot of pretty impressive work!

I'm looking forward to the machining. It will be nice to see this project go from virtual to reality.

Got any more pics of your crank?


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## Lorenz (Jul 9, 2010)

Nederlands zie ik!

zeer mooi tekenwerk.
Ik ben benieuwd ook dit ook te realiseren is in een schaalmodel.
dat zou wel zeer knap zijn.

succes!

groeten.


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## lee9966 (Jul 9, 2010)

I am surprised no one has asked, or less surprised if you have said and I didn't see it, what software are you using?

Thanks, those are amazing renderings.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 9, 2010)

rhb:
I spent 6 years in research and development in a yacht yard. Back in the day we made pattern (Plugs) of yacht parts 1:1 scale then made molds and then parts. even made a fiberglass head sink and a wet bar or two.we even made a model boat once. I think I MIGHT be able to talk you through making a small car body. 
Let me know when you are ready. 
Tin


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## rhb (Jul 11, 2010)

KustomKB  said:
			
		

> Got any more pics of your crank?


No I don't. I put all the parts together for a display at the annual day of a modelclub.
After that I took it apart.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 11, 2010)

just hang a piece of plexi (oversize as the clams may leave a mark. ) off the oven rack with a couple of spring paper clamps when heated lay it on your form. 
You may be able to form it right into the body just mold it with clear resin. Although you may need a vacuum chamber to keep all the bubbles out. 
Tin
Nice bike by the way


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## lee9966 (Jul 11, 2010)

rhb  said:
			
		

> If not so then you might be the problem.



Ouch! Sorry if I offended in some way. I have an opportunity to start using Solidworks, and I was hoping to aspire to such nice work some day.


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## dsquire (Jul 11, 2010)

LeeScrounger 

I don't believe that you offended rhb. I think that a part of the problem comes from the translation to english which is not his native language.

I believe what he meant was that it is not important what the name of the program is. It is the results of the program that count. If you have the best program in the world and don't know how to use it to best advantage then you get bad results and the problem is with the operator and not the program.

I hope that this helps and I am sure that rhb will correct me if I am wrong on this.

I find that this is a fantastic thread and look forward to every new bit of information that is posted. I have watched every video on rebuilding the Porsche 917 and find them very interesting. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


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## rhb (Jul 12, 2010)

dsquire  said:
			
		

> LeeScrounger
> I hope that this helps and I am sure that rhb will correct me if I am wrong on this.
> Don


Thanks Don. That's indeed what I was trying to say. To me it's an always returning question. To my opinion it's not the program but the man behind it. Because from most of the programs the results are interchangable and it must be because that's why thay are called 3D programs.  
The big difference is the presentation of the output. You can go for a quick simple printout or choose for photographic quality with hours of rendering time. 
Speaking for myself. Drawing 3D isn't more complicated than 2D but you have to practice. What is more complicated is finding the tricks you have to perform to get the photographic quality.
The choice of a program for use at home is mostly driven by the need of it's output. Example :  If one has a CNC machine or if one wanted to make a well dimensioned drawing then SolidWorks or Inventor might be an option. If you not intended to use a drawing at all but only make yourself photographic output than 3Dstudio Max is a possibility. 
I don't say that SolidWorks can't produce the same results as 3dsMax and the other way around. But getting there is only a little more complicated. You can't compare apples and pears just eat the one you like most.
Sorry I skipped the names of a lot of good 3D programs but I'm not in the advertising business.



			
				LeeScrounger  said:
			
		

> I have an opportunity to start using Solidworks, and I was hoping to aspire to such nice work some day.


Welcome to the digital 3D world. I can only say be persistant to get the results you want.


regards Rijk


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## rhb (Jul 12, 2010)

OK now back to business

Some other remarks 
I was contacted by several people to share the CAD drawings of the frame. As long one has a good story Im willing to share because the frame is no secret at all. There was a person who like to make some calculation on the frame with the finite element method. Then there was a person who wanted to use it for rapid prototyping. The top of it all was a person who wanted to build a 1 to 1 model and when finished use it for racing.


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## gbritnell (Jul 12, 2010)

Rijk,
 I have been following this thread since you started it. Needless to say, the work you're doing is very impressive. 
Miniaturizing parts is one thing, getting them to work is another. As you have stated in your last posting there are certain engineering designs that will work on something larger but can't be done practically in a small scale. For stationary running you could always use a small electric fan to cool the oil but that would take away from the aesthetics of the project. There is also the problem with fuel delivery that you mentioned. I'm sure you have visited modeling sites over time and have seen the adaptations people have used to to get their miniature engine to work. I for one have run into these problems and have had to solve them within my own capabilities and resources. Some people that get into this hobby come from an engineering background and have more knowledge to solve some of the miniaturization problems. Still others have some very sophisticated tooling at their disposal. 
 In the end most people who have been at this hobby for some time accept the work arounds that are required to complete a project and don't even question the builder's alternative methods. 
 From what I've seen so far I'm more than confident that I will be 'blown away' by the finished project.
 Keep up the great work.
George


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## rhb (Jul 13, 2010)

One day most of the drawings are ready


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## T70MkIII (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks for the pictures of your metalwork to get to this point, Rijk. Really nice work. Please keep the build shots coming, as well as your 3D drawings.


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## lee9966 (Jul 13, 2010)

That is some fantastic work, I really am enjoying your thread. To realize how small those parts are would it be possible to have a ruler or something in the future pictures?


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## rhb (Jul 14, 2010)

As told before the engine is air cooled. This made a simple modular design possible. The 12 cylinders are all individual pieces which can be changed relatively easily.
I


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## rhb (Aug 5, 2010)

It took some time to reassemble the complete cranck.


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## Optimusglen (Sep 27, 2010)

Remarkable work. I am excited to follow this build as it progresses.

I was reading about the 917's recently and saw that the chassis bars on these are joined together so that the hollow cavities intersect with each other to form what is essentially a large air chamber. Then before the race the chassis "air chamber" is charged with dry nitrogen. The mechanics would monitor the pressurized system, if there was a pressure drop it would mean there was a crack or fracture, indicating a weakened chassis.

Have fun with your project!


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## rhb (Sep 28, 2010)

Optimusglen  said:
			
		

> I was reading about the 917's recently and saw that the chassis bars on these are joined together so that the hollow cavities intersect with each other to form what is essentially a large air chamber. Then before the race the chassis "air chamber" is charged with dry nitrogen. The mechanics would monitor the pressurized system, if there was a pressure drop it would mean there was a crack or fracture, indicating a weakened chassis.



This story goes round and round but in the real world things were not that simple. There was a big influence of the environmetal temperature and air pressure which made longtime readings inaccurate. The big holes were detect easily but the small ones were still hard to find.

mvgrijk


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