# Electricity and Common Urban Myths



## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

There is a thread going on about a nice little generator/motor, and some interesting ideas have been presented in that thread.

In order to keep from getting off-thread, I will post this information here, but it is relevant to any generator/motor thread, especially when you start trying to figure out how your motor/generator works, and how much power it uses/generates.

But in a general sense, there is a great deal of confusion about electricity and how it works, and this often leads to urban myths about electricity. You cannot begin to work with electricity without understanding what is myth and what is reality, so I offer a few generalities about these for those who really want to know and understand.

Myth No.1:
_You can make an electrical device that will create more energy than it uses._
Of course this statement is false, but why is the idea so pervasive in urban lore?
If someone sold you an automobile, and told you that as you drive the car, the engine creates gasoline and adds it to the gas tank, you would immediately know something is amiss. Since you can control and measure what goes into the tank, and what comes out of the tank, then you can quickly find out that engines don't put gas back into the tank.
With electricity, since few understand how it is used and measured, then it is easy for the general public to get fooled with the "free energy" theories. But if you understand how to use electrical instruments correctly, then you can easily measure what energy goes in, and what energy comes out.

People want to believe good things, and often the argument is used that look at what has been created by people who were told it was not possible. Anything is possible as long as it follows the laws of physics. All things that have been made by man all adhere to the same laws of physics. When people say "it can't be done", what that really means is that they don't have knowledge of a method that can be used functionally, but their lack of knowledge does not mean that what works does not follow the fundamental laws of physics. Very important distinction, and a mistaken argument that is often heard.

Myth No.2:
_Scientists try to suppress new ideas about free-energy._
I have heard this argument many times, but you don't need to be a rocket scientist to debunk free-energy machines, you only need to know how to correctly use a ammeter, voltmeter, and oscilloscope. Anyone can learn to use these items correctly, it is not difficult. A "red flag" on the free energy ideas is that you will never see these instruments during presentations. Accurately measuring what is happening with an electrical device is not what the "free energy" folks want, they prefer the smoke-and-mirrors approach, or the argument that this is something new that people don't understand. Measure accurately first, and then make claims, not vice-versa.

If you transfer X amount of energy into an electrical device such as a motor, you will convert some of the electrical energy into waste heat by heating the wires, which act as heat-generating resistors, by hysteresis and eddy current losses in magnetic cores, frictional losses in bearing, which generates heat, etc.
So if you transmit 100 watts of energy to a motor, the motor will not produce 100 watts of work, but will produce a portion of that amount in heat, and then produce less than 100 watts of mechanical work.

For a generator, if your prime mover is inputting 100 watts of mechanical energy into a generator, the generator will not output 100 watts of generated electrical power, but will produce less than 100 watts, because of the losses mentioned above.

A coreless design may prevent cogging, but I don't see any large scale devices that do not use laminated iron cores. Solid iron cores can be used, but the laminated cores minimize hysteresis and eddy current losses, and so are used almost exclusively in power devices of any size, such as transformers or motors.

Why are most power systems in use today 3-phase.
3-phase systems are just three 1-phase systems connected together, no big deal there. They originally experimented with 6-phase, 12-phase, and other phase systems, but settled on the 3-phase system due to its efficiency, and the fact that 3-phase motors produce constant torque (ie: very low vibration).

For very long distance power transmission, very high voltage DC systems are used, with a converter from AC to DC at either end of the line. These systems use a single wire, with the earth used as the second conductor. But 3-phase AC systems are used for power distribution because you have to convert lots of bulk power up and down in voltage, and the power transformer works with AC only.

Do I know everything about electricity?
Absolutely not, I will never know everything about electricity.

Do I understand electricity well enough to predict what motors, generators, and free-energy devices will do and how much power they will use?
Absolutely yes. It is as simple as knowing how much gasoline I put in my car, and how far I drive at what gas mileage.

Will people create more efficient electrical equipment in the future?
Absolutely yes.

Will people create electrical devices that "create" energy in the future?
Not on this earth, maybe in the center of some giant black hole, but I doubt it.

These things are relevant when you start measuring the input/output of your motor/generator on these threads though, so I mention them.
I don't know it all, but I wasn't born yesterday either.


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## bearcar1 (May 9, 2012)

Hello Pat, perhaps it would be a benefit if you went back and reviewed your understanding of basic electricity, at least in terms of high tension transmission is concerned. For one, the 'earth' as you are calling it is not used as one 'side' of any given circuit, it is used as a reference only. A common mistake. That reference could be any positive or negative component of the AC voltage being generated. I'm certain what prompted your initial response, but please use the proper terms when attempting to explain the concepts of power transmission to a certified electrician. Thank you.

BC1
Jim


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## Dan Rowe (May 9, 2012)

I do not want to muck up Manfred's generator thread so I will post here.

Rare earth magnets are being used for the newest designs of large wind turbines and hybrid cars. They are in all sorts of small stuff like hard drives small motors etc. The price increase of the magnets by China the largest producer has a lot of industry scrambling for new sources of magnets.

This was new to me also but checking the internet ever so often for new advances in engineering designs is one of the reasons I read this forum.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25188/ 

Dan


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## Ken I (May 9, 2012)

Bearcar,
      Your reference to earth is correct for all but what Jim mentioned - those ultra high DC transmission lines have only one insulated strand and an "earth" cable that runs in the ground from tower to tower (as well a some underground co-ax systems).
DC is a more efficient way of moving bulk power (like Cahora Bassa Dam) long distances and doesn't suffer from capacitive inter strand connection losses, induction loss etc. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahora_Bassa_(HVDC)

Clearly a single strand. The upper earth strand is for lightning protection only.

Some HT DC transmission systems use bipolar transmission lines and others use two for redundancy with an "earth", also for ballancing the mechanical loading on the towers.

Ken


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## Maryak (May 9, 2012)

Gee's

All I thought it was is V=IR and W=VI. 

where V = volts = pressure
     I = amps = flow
     R = resistance = restrictions to flow
     W = power

Best Regards
Bob


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## Ken I (May 9, 2012)

Bob,
   W=VA Cos psi (more correctly W=EI)

cos psi being the cosine of the angle that the current waveform leads or lags the voltage waveform in AC circuits - this is the "power factor". For DC it is 1.0 so your formula holds there.

For a purely inductive or capacative load the power factor is zero so its entirely possible (nearly) to have voltage and current but no Wattage - sometimes refered to as "Wattless Current"

All rather confusing really.

As regards ANY claims of getting more energy out than you put in means someone has made a discovery that shatters all the existing laws of physics - we would have heard about it.

So forgive us scientific types for being blunt but that's why we say "it isn't possible" and switch off - I for one won't waste my time listening to the drivel that is invariably trotted out with such claims.

I've had family members accuse me of having a closed mind on this issue.

Ken


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## fcheslop (May 9, 2012)

Dont forget poor old Kirchoffs laws :big:


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## Ken I (May 9, 2012)

fcheslop  said:
			
		

> Dont forget poor old Kirchoffs laws :big:


That's one of the bolts and locks on the door of my "closed mind".

Ken


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## Noitoen (May 9, 2012)

There is something else nobody used to think off. When you buy a motor, no matter what brand, the specified power in W or KW is measured at the shaft. When you compare electrical consumption that's where you see the difference. Cheaper motors on constant use will "gulp" the difference in acquisition cost to more efficient ones in a matter of months.
Some big companies, when a older motor burns out, they usually exchange it with a more efficient one.


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## purpleknif (May 9, 2012)

So where's Nikola Tesla when we need him?
 Lets not get into high frequency and the wireless transmission of power.  :


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## fcheslop (May 9, 2012)

ssshhhh the feds got him


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## mklotz (May 9, 2012)

For people unwilling or unable to learn any science, the most compelling argument that over-unity devices can't exist is the economic one. If such devices existed, every facet of advertising media would already be hired to the task of trying to sell you one. [ The faithful will argue that these devices are being suppressed by big business, etc.. However, see Baloney Detection below.]

Most technical university physics departments receive so many claims of over-unity devices invented that they have standard form letters refusing to examine the suggested ideas.

If you're interested in learning how to detect junk science, a good start is the "Baloney Detection Collection"...

http://www.physics.smu.edu/~pseudo/baloney.html


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Hello Pat, perhaps it would be a benefit if you went back and reviewed your understanding of basic electricity, at least in terms of high tension transmission is concerned. For one, the 'earth' as you are calling it is not used as one 'side' of any given circuit, it is used as a reference only. A common mistake. That reference could be any positive or negative component of the AC voltage being generated. I'm certain what prompted your initial response, but please use the proper terms when attempting to explain the concepts of power transmission to a certified electrician. Thank you.
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Jim-

The earth is indeed used as one side of the electrical circuit for high voltage DC transmission lines. Only one current carrying conductor is on a DC trasmission pole, the other conductor is the earth. No mistake here. Don't take my word for it, reseach it on the internet. It is common knowledge.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

A quick Google search revealed this information:

*Monopole and earth return * 
Block diagram of a monopole system with earth returnIn a common configuration, called monopole, one of the terminals of the rectifier is connected to earth ground. The other terminal, at a potential high above or below ground, is connected to a transmission line.

Current flows in the earth between the earth electrodes at the two stations. _*Therefore it is a type of single wire earth return. * _


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

I remember a funny thing about power factor.

I was baffled for years about the meaning of power factor, and finally one day it all clicked in my small brain.

I was so excited that I wanted to tell someone immediately about my great discovery.

My Mom and Dad were leaving to go on vacation, and were in the car and backing out of the driveway. I ran up to the car, and banged on the window, and yelled loudly "MOM, DAD, I FIGURED OUT POWER FACTOR, STOP THE CAR".

My dad very wisely cracked the window very slightly, and said "That's nice........see you in two weeks", without ever slowing down the car. They quickly sped off down the street, and thus were spared the dreaded "power factor" lecture.
Such is the appreciation of parents when great scientific understanding is reached.

A common equation for electricity is V=I*R*cos(thesa)
where "cos(theta)" is the power factor.

For DC circuits, cos(theta) is always equal to 1.
For AC circuits, the power factor can be leading or lagging.

Modern AC motors generally have a power factor in excess of 85% or more.
Older motors can have a power factor of 50% or less.

Inductors and capacitors have a power factor of zero, ie: they use a lot of electrical current, but produce no electrical work.

Resistive loads always have a power factor of 1.

If you have a low power factor in your manufacturing plant, you can add capacitors at each motor, or at a group location at the electrical service entrance, or you can install some synchronous motors, and adjust the field for a leading power factor on the synchronous motor, and thus improve the power factor of the entire facility.

Pat J


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## Don1966 (May 9, 2012)

I want every one to know that it was not my intension to disrupt Mansfred's tread I do apologize for that. I had simply posted that his motor was just like John Bedini's motor and it started from there again my apology. 
Pat that was an excellent coarse in electricity. There is only one thing I would add is that the biggest contributor of losses from converting from mechanic to electricity is because of Lenz's Law. And I do agree with you about the ground and High voltage. 

One great thing about every one being different is that we all see and understand things in our own way. We have our own views of things how they work and how to apply them. If we were all closed minded, we would not be where we are today. My father did not believe they went to the moon or man could go to space but yet they did. None of us are smarter there the next person, we my know more about different subjects but that does't make us smarter. With that being said my apology again.

kind regards Don


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## Dan Rowe (May 9, 2012)

Don,
It is easy to fix the off topic drift on Manfred's generator thread. You can simply remove the posts you made that went off topic. I removed the response post I made and the other responses were made by global moderators who know how to edit or remove posts.

I am a big fan of Nikola Tesla. His main rival was Edison and I want to point out that there is a unit named for Tesla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit) and Edison never received that honor. 

He demonstrated a radio controlled boat in 1898 in the hopes of interesting the US Navy but they saw no use for the device. That was some serious dumbness on the part of the upper brass.

Dan


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## steamer (May 9, 2012)

OK relax everyone.  I don't like editing threads unless it goes WAY pear shaped. I not convinced it did in this case either.

Arnold and I can discuss a change there, but I doubt it.  And I wouldn't in any case unless I talked to Manfred first...

Though Marv and Ken, as an Engineer, I understand EXACTLY where your coming from....

Deep breath in....let it out slow. ;D.

It's a hobby right?..... : Let's leave it be.

Dave


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

Well that is why I jumped over to the Break Room, where we could just blog about stuff, and not get too far off topic.

But we are in the Break Room, and this is where we all kick back and have all sorts of converstations, share and learn.

I learn something everytime I post, so I enjoy posting.

And as a matter of fact, I actually enjoy the posts were everyone does not agree, because then it makes me dig around and learn and study, and find out more about the topic.

Manfred's posts are a perfect example of spawning lots of thoughts and learning, and I am enjoying them very much, as well as the posts that are just somewhat related.

But we are in the Break Room, so I say lets blog and chat, and have fun.

That is what the Break Room is for.

Pat J


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## Dan Rowe (May 9, 2012)

Sorry Dave,
Engineering is like oxygen to some of us.

The mention of John Bedini did lead me to a partial list of perpetual motion patents that have been granted through the years. It seams like patent lawyers should take a few engineering courses. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/patents.htm

Dan


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## Don1966 (May 9, 2012)

Dan and Pat one of the things I love about being in this business is you never stop learning. Every day I work is a new challenge or a new adventure. This makes it hard to retire because I would miss it too much. How many people can say I look forward to work today or I love my job? It's like an addiction once you understand it, it leaves you thirsty for more. I have made it my point to learn every thing I can about it and this makes my job a whole lot easier. I love to read and my book shelf is full. Now i am filling it with model engineering books and this is getting addictive.

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

Don-

I like steam engines a lot, and I like electricity a lot, so Manfred's posts are just the cats meow to me, since I would use a steam engine to power a generator.

And I like my job a lot too, and can't believe people pay me to do something that I love to do.

But no matter how much I think I know, I never fail to learn from these posts.

Generally, when you post something on an open forum, if 10 people respond, then two will agree with you, two will disagree with you and be wrong, two will disagree with you and be right, two will add something that you did not know, and two will respond with things that are so far out they leave you amazed, but interested.

So that is what is good about forums, any way you look at it, you are going to learn if you post something.

Pat J


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## Entropy455 (May 9, 2012)

Without looking it up, can anyone name the six ways electricity can be generated?

Yes, there are only six ways - it's not a trick question. . . . .


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## JorgensenSteam (May 9, 2012)

Man, I hate these quizzes.

Lets see, 1. Battery, 2. Thermocouple, 3. Generator, 4. Static Electricity, 5. Striking Crystals, 6. ?

I must have been asbent when they covered item 6.

Did you know that when you strike a crystal with a small hammer, it produces an electrical voltage/current, such as with a bbq propane lighter.

But when you apply electricity to a crystal, they vibrate, so they used crystals to shake the instruments on fighter planes when they were in a high-G situation to keep inertia from freezing the instrument movement.

And a thermocouple (to strips of dissimilar metals bonded together) will generate electricity, but if you provide electricity to a thermocouple, one side of the metal strips gets hot, and the other gets cold, which is how these 12 volt cooler/heaters that don't have compressors work (the ones that plug into your car 12 volt system).

Did you know you can buy a propane powered refrigerator? Yep. Many campers use them, but I have seen full sized units in houses too.

Did I get any answers correct?
If yes, do I win some sort of major award, such as a years supply of carbide tool inserts or something?

Pat J


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## Entropy455 (May 10, 2012)

Very good. You got the hard ones. . . .

The sixth is solar.


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

Yes Pat it is called piezoelectric. And the old refrigators used to use ammonia in them for refrigent and were heated with gas,kerosene, and electricity. Did you know that air conditioners do not cool a room, they only remove the heat so the room feels cool.

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Seems like I read somewhere about motor circuits originally operating at 30 Hz, and lighting circuits operating at 100 Hz, in order to maximize efficiency.

Separate systems were provided for each, with separate generators.

At some point (don't know when) a compromise was reached at 60Hz in the US, and 50 Hz in some other countries.

Generally people assume that things have always been the way they are now, but it developed over time.


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## Ken I (May 10, 2012)

I really would like to know who and when they decided on 50/60Hz.

Higher frequencies give better performance at end user level (commercial airliners typically use 400Hz for high efficiency electric motor drives) but are lousy for power distribution efficiency.

So I would assume a bunch of engineers sat down and tried to determine the best compromise (and almost certainly got it wrong).

Does anyone know ?

Ken


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## steamer (May 10, 2012)

Ken I  said:
			
		

> I really would like to know who and when they decided on 50/60Hz.
> 
> Higher frequencies give better performance at end user level (commercial airliners typically use 400Hz for high efficiency electric motor drives) but are lousy for power distribution efficiency.
> 
> ...




I suspect there was 1 too many cases of beer involved... ;D

Glad we're all having a good time...... :bow: I've seen similar conversations get down right ugly quickly.....must be the caliper of the people on this forum 

Dave


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## Ken I (May 10, 2012)

steamer  said:
			
		

> I suspect there was 1 too many cases of beer involved...
> 
> Glad we're all having a good time



O.K.  time for a Geek joke

Two atoms are having a conversation...

atom1 "You know, I think I've gone and lost an electron."

atom2 "Are you Sure ?"

atom1 "Yes, I'm positive !"

Groannnnnn......

Ken


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## steamer (May 10, 2012)

Where's the rim shot!
 :big:
He's here all week folks...try the meatloaf and tip your waiter!

Dave


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## Dan Rowe (May 10, 2012)

What about electric eels?

The process is similar to a battery but it involves living cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ_discharge

Dan


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## Dan Rowe (May 10, 2012)

Ken I  said:
			
		

> I really would like to know who and when they decided on 50/60Hz.



Ken,
This wiki article covers it fairly well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency

Dan


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

Hey guys did you here about Henry the inductor catching Charlie capacitor playing with Diana Diodes anode.

Don


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## rhitee93 (May 10, 2012)

Don1966  said:
			
		

> Hey guys did you here about Henry the inductor catching Charlie capacitor playing with Diana Diodes anode.
> 
> Don



Ahh, that Diana. She is a free-wheeling kind of gal...

(Well, the EEs in the room get it)


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Dan Rowe  said:
			
		

> Ken,
> This wiki article covers it fairly well.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency
> 
> Dan



Dan-

That is a good article.
Seems like many things electrical in the US were defined with the Westinghouse electrification of Niagara Falls in 1895.

I have worked with 400Hz, and the voltage drop is huge, you can go about 50 feet with a circuit before you need a voltage regulator, but you can also have tiny little powerful motors on an aircraft.  On a large aircraft ramp, which is the typical arrangement for large airports, you need a regulator at every gate.

Diesel-electric locomotives are also interesting, since the series-wound motor can produce a large amount of torque, thus eliminating the need for a clutch. 

Pat J


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## Dan Rowe (May 10, 2012)

Entropy455  said:
			
		

> Without looking it up, can anyone name the six ways electricity can be generated?
> 
> Yes, there are only six ways - it's not a trick question. . . . .




Okey I will admit I looked it up but the 6 ways mentioned are well known to most engineers. 

Wiki makes no distinction about living cells so electric eels like a battery are classified as electrochemistry. 

The method not mentioned is nuclear transformation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation

Alphavoltaic and betavoltaic are two examples of the class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betavoltaics

Dan


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## Mosey (May 10, 2012)

When you cool the room, isn't it correct that you remove the moisture ( not the heat) and therefore the temperature drops?


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## Dan Rowe (May 10, 2012)

UNIcastings  said:
			
		

> Diesel-electric locomotives are also interesting, since the series-wound motor can produce a large amount of torque, thus eliminating the need for a clutch.



Pat,
The thing I remember from school about series wound DC motors is they need an application that does not allow them to freewheel. The high starting torque will speed them up to destruction without a load. That is why they are only used on things like subway cars and locomotives or connected to gear trains.

Dan


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

Negative Mosey, the AC refrigerant absorbs the heat in order to boil the gas which is a liquid to a vapor. This is why it works. Then you do what is call super heat the gas with a compressor elevating the boiling point of the gas to condense back to a liquid, it thus transferring the heat to the outside. I would say the movement of heat is like a heat exchanger just a different approach. The moisture is removed by the condensation from the cool coils.

Don


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## Mosey (May 10, 2012)

Thanks for correcting my assumption. I vaguely remember that discussion in Pipes & Tubes class back when. Must have been Spring and I was looking out the window.


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

Pat did you know that the Niagara Falls project of 1895 was Tesla's motors and generators and his project. He and George Westinghouse had a partnership. Westinghouse supplied the funds. When he and George split Tesla let Westighouse have all the assets instead of litigation in court. He want his inventions to live on instead of money, court would of distroyed all his work. This project was the first of its kind and lit New York. Edison made all attempts to make Tesla's AC generates and motors look bad, by going so far as electrocuting an Elephant to show how dangerous it was. He want to profit from it and pushed DC.

Regards don


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## Dan Rowe (May 10, 2012)

Don,
Yes the War of Currents was ugly. I have seen the film of the poor elephant who had killed several men but that does not justify not using a high power rifle to humanely kill the beast.

Wiki did not sanitize the facts of the fight between Tesla and Edison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

Dan


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

Dan the DC motors will soon be a motor of the pass. With the PWM Vector Drive AC motors far surpass that of DC motors. You can burn a motor with over Torque with these drives. This drive has a motor model Algrorithms that calculates the motors Stator and rotor resistance per degree of rotation, and adjust the magnetizing flux and torque flux accordingly. Of coarse it monitors the current and voltage as well. Below is some photos of some of my Toys at work I like to call them.

This is a 1000v 3500amp drive the motor it drives is 3500KW 620volt 






















don


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## Noitoen (May 10, 2012)

Ok, you win. All I have is a Tyssen/Henchel shredder with a 850 Kw. 6Kv motor with direct start. Only thing between the motor and the 17 metric ton rotor is a Voight torque converter type clutch.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Don-

That is some nice switchgear.
With the advent of AC drives (VFD's), I really don't see DC motors any more.

I think if you need near full torque and speed regulation down to almost zero rpm's, probably DC motors are still the way to go.

Here are 6 - 2000 hp synchronous motors at a local rainwater runoff lift station.
Originally built around 1945 by the Corps.
Not really large motors by industrial standards, the local refinery has a 32,000 hp motor.

I had a proposal to renovate this station, and although the switchgear and motors are considered modern in that they are all dead-front, etc, the wiring diagrams do not use standard symbols, and the nomenclature is very misleading, such as the label "vacuum breakers".
You would thing vacuum breakers would be the electrical variety, but no, they are actually pneumatic valves on the large water pipes that open to prevent siphoning of the water through the pipe.

A couple of smaller motors also at 500 hp and 300 hp.

It is an interesting combination of equipment, with GE 2000 hp motors, Westinghouse switchgear and motor-generator sets, and a Fairbanks Morse 300 hp motor.

The motor generators use an AC motor to drive a DC motor, to create the DC field for the 2000 hp motors.

The synchronous motors have two medium voltage breakers per motor, for a partial winding start. I have not seen partial winding start synchronous motors other than these.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Motor generator sets.
The field current is adjusted using the motor-driven wiper arm on the contacts on top of the DC switchgear.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

The motors turn pretty slow, 240 rpm.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Lots of "yikes" moments with this floor mounted, oil-filled transformer, with exposed secondary terminals. Not only is is a fire hazard, but to add insult to injury, it is the PCB type.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

And the ladder diagram for one of the 2000 hp motors, with non-standard symbols.

The "vacuum breaker" is a pneumatic valve, not an electric circuit breaker.

The motor starts by closing the medium voltage breaker on the far left (line breaker), which uses 1/2 of the windings to get the motor spinning as an induction motor. When the speed reaches a certain point, the second medium voltage breaker closes (running breaker), energizing the second half of the windings, and then the DC field kicks in and if you are lucky, the motor locks into synchronous speed.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Pump down in a room below the motor floor.
All the 2000 hp motors have forced air electric heat to keep the coils dry, and all the heaters have run continuously since 1945, which is why these motors still operate on their original windings.


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

I love that stuff I guess because I am for the old school. I cut my teeth on DC when I started this business, synchronous motors and wind rotor motors. I have rewinded many different motors also before I became a Tech. Some of your photos remind me of the old Ward lenard system. They used those on cranes and machinery. I still run across ampidynes used on old cranes, the military used them on gun terrets.
By the way the VFD,s have overcome the speed issue you can get 200% torque at zero speed with these systems.

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Don-

That is interesting about the new VFD's. Did not know that.

I did a project one time in a small southern city, and they were renovating an old power generating building. You know you are going back when you open the panelbaord and see bare bus bars.

Note the knife switches for each circuit.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

This powerhouse was like a museum. The stuff that was casually stored up stairs included the following Ediphone. It looked as if they quit using it last year or something. I did a double-take. "What the heck is that?" I said.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

So I thought to myself, the project will have to wait, I am going to look at everything here.

The next item I found was a transformer looking thing, but with an odd moving coil.
Turns out it was used to change the voltage on the street light circuits.

Definitely a museum.


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## kf2qd (May 10, 2012)

Was working on a Plasma table up in Milwaukee and they were working on some new pumps like these. 10 foot diameter tube size.

Having had family members that worked with those old transformers I think the danger from PCB's has been way overrated. No statistical difference between the workes at GE's shop among those that reworked those transformers than the general population. You stand more chance of being injured by electricity than by those PCB's.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

I read once about the statistics surrounding commercial airline crashes, but as I recall, you are much more likely to be killed by a lightning strike, or even a bee sting, than to perish in an airplane crash.

We always played with the sheets of asbestos that Dad brought home.
And we broke open those old thermostats, and played all day long with the blobs of mercury.


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## Don1966 (May 10, 2012)

That is differently some old stuff. I wish I would have kept some of that when I started. Really it don't seem that long ago when you look back, of coarse I am telling my age here. Thanks for sharing that with me Pat I really enjoyed your photos it brings back memories.

Don


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## Mainer (May 10, 2012)

@kf2QD, UNIcastings:

Dismiss the health risks if you want. Look up what happened at the Johns-Manville asbestos plant.

Hatters used to use mercury as part of the process for treating felt. Ever wonder where the expression "Mad as a hatter" comes from?

Some of that stuff is increased risk, not a certainty, which can give a false sense of security. When you lose the roll of the dice though, the odds for you suddenly become 100%, and it's no fun at all. I've got Parkinson's disease. I don't have the genetic predisposition to getting it. Although one can only guess, I think it is probably due to a lot of exposure to carbon tetrachloride when I was a kid.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 10, 2012)

Mainer-

Nope, I don't dismiss the health risks.
I think exposure to a variety of toxic stuff is what got my Dad.

It is just that I have been exposed to so much junk that I can only laugh about it, knowing that I could drop dead any day from it.

We just did not know any better.

The stuff mentioned above was some of the more safe stuff we did as kids.
Why I am still around, I don't know. We did some crazy stuff as kids.

Pat J


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## ShopShoe (May 10, 2012)

UNIcastings,

I had someone tell me about those moving-coil regulators. What he referred to had rocking beams: Thus, Rocking Beam Regulators. the power plant he visited had a whole basement full of them. He also explained how the series-wired streetlights kept working with burned-out bulbs.

BTW, the man that told me about this stuff was a ham radio enthusiast who held several commercial radio licenses (back when that was a mandatory and a big deal) who also built working replicas of early radio gear. When I moved on he was building a rotary spark gap transmitter.

--ShopShoe


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## JorgensenSteam (May 11, 2012)

Shoe-

I vaguely remember something about street light systems, maybe the series systems had a self shorting device or something, in case the bulb burned out.
Electric street lights were a big deal when they came out, like something magical to have bright lights at night along the street.

The small assembly of coils that was in all phones until not too many years ago is an interesting circuit. I will dig out a copy of it.
It is a twist on what was done for multiplexing multiple telegraph signals on a single pair of wires.

If you have ever noticed, the wired phone lines only had two conductors per line, and yet voice was transmitted simultaneously from each end to the other at the same time over the same pair of wires, ie: both people could talk and listen at the same time on their respective phone sets.
You would think the two signals going in opposite directions would cancel, but using the coil circuitry, they did not.
Pretty clever what they did before the era of electronic circuits.

Pat J


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## Ken I (May 11, 2012)

Dan,
   Thanks very much for the Wiki link on frequencies - quite convoluted.

This thread has gone all over the place - but WTH this is the Break Room.

It is easy to dismiss safety concerns over many substances - but these substances are hazardous. 
Unfortunately they are oft treated as absolutes, which they are not, limited exposure to most of them is generally not a problem.

Has anyone ever seen a table of risk profiles / subtances ?

For instance exposure to blue asbestos is cumulative and has long term consequences - avoid it like the plague.
Mercury is cumulative but very limited exposure I don't see as particularly dangerous.
Benzine is low risk - I saw an article which calculated the US benzine control regulations cost U$20 Billion per theoretical life saved.
I used to run a Chrome plant - Hexavalent Chromium - (the "Ellen Brockovitch" Chrome 6) - nasty stuff - but used with the correct care poses little risk. Used incorrectly its leathal.
Similarly plating and heat treatment with Cyanides - need I say more.

Doing anything is potentially dangerous - NASA astronauts belong to a drinking club called the "Turtles" - the motto - "if you don't stick your neck out, you'll never get anywhere".

I'll duck back into my shell now.

Ken


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## ShopShoe (May 11, 2012)

UNIcastings,

Re: Streetlights -- What he told me was that there was a metal-dialetric-metal disc in the back of the bulb socket. The disc, called a "Dialectric Dime" would do nothing if the bulb was OK. Bulb filament broken and voltage accross dialectric in the dime would be high enough to burn out the insulator and short out, then the rest of the circuit would go back to normal. My understanding is then the regulator back at the power plant would compensate for the difference in the whole circuit.

Re: Telephones -- I never totally understood it, but the coils also allowed two phones on a two-party line to be rung independently of each other and for one party to call the other on the same circuit. I was once told the ringback test numbers to test any line (circa 1975): Dial xxxx-xx to test one side, then xxxx-xy to test the other. 

General Comment: Greatest myth out there is that all we need to do is eliminate all hazardous materials and activities and that that can be done without any trade-off. The real job that the education system has is to get students (and everyone else) to understand that there are no absolutes in life and that decision-making must be informed decision-making and based on real science, real evidence, and understanding of the trade-offs involved.

BTW, I cringe whenever I hear how wonderful it is to use 100% sea salt in your food: after all the stuff that has been dumped into the sea I don't really feel good about sprinkling it everywhere. (This is meant to be non-inflamatory / ironic / humorous comment)

--ShopShoe


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## Captain Jerry (May 11, 2012)

As a kid, I played with mercury, asbestos, and poured lead soldiers, and the common way to clinch a lead sinker on a fishing line was to bite it. I have suffered no apparent ill effects except that sometimes I do really dumb stuff. I wonder if it is related.

Jerry


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## Don1966 (May 11, 2012)

Changing the topic here it is getting kind of depressing I have beem exposed to a lot of this stuff myself. Time will tell if we have effects. Anyway I though Dan And Pat would enjoy one of my collectibles.
This is a Tesla High Frequency Coil I built back in 1993 when I had plenty of time on hand. My camera battery died on me I was wanting to put my Binary Clock, but I will add it later. The Coil will produce about 250,000 volts and yes the Floresent lite is lit. Tesla built Warden Cliffe tower on Long Island New York which was financed by J.P. Morgan it was to be a communication tower but also Tesla's test to transmit wireless power. Tesla had already tested his system in Colorada and if you look up Colorada experiment you can read about it. Anyway he placed two transformers 5 miles apart and transmitted all most absolute power with minimun loss wireless. He place a ground on each end and grid antenna. back to Warden Cliffe when J.P. Morgan found out that he could not put a meter on it he black balled Tesla and no one would help him so he poured all his resorces to salvage Warden cliffe but fail. This is when he sold alot of his pattens. There are Universitys that are researching his system and can transmitt 10,000 watts of power within a room.
Sadly because of J.P. Morgan we are at loss today. Ward Cliffe has been dismandled but the area still has a story to tell.
This Coil means nothing to most but to me it has a story behind it and that matters to me 

Regards Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 11, 2012)

Don-

I have never had a coil, but have marveled at some of the ones I have seen.

The genius of Tesla seems to be in two parts, he understood electromagetism, but he also was creative enough to envision how it could be applied to practical problem solving, like power distribution, communication, etc. Tesla had incredible vision, and not just the type related to sight.

Jerry-

There is no doubt all the stuff I played with must have had some effect on health. We melted lead on a regular basis, and played with lead all the time. It is one of those things that I can't change, and so I don't worry about it. I do warn others, expecially young people, not to handle the hazardous stuff.


Pat J


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## RonGinger (May 11, 2012)

I built a couple tesla coils in High School. The first used a tube from a TV set, and had an input power of about 20 watts. Then I borrowed a 6146 from the ham club and ran about 75 watts. That was kind of impressive, so I found a 211 triode and borrowed the power supply form the ham club and ran 1.5kw. I tuned it to 1 mhz, which of course is in the middle of the broadcast band. My secondary coil was about 5 feet tall. 

I could carry a 4 ft florescent tube anywhere in the house and light up as much of it as my hands spread. It would vaporize a wad of steel wool thrown at it. 

I had a lot of trouble keeping it from arcing over between the primary and secondary coils. Even a glass bottle with the bottom cutout wouldn't hold it.

I ran it for our annual class open house, but then had to dismantle it. I still have the 211 tube right here on my desk. It has a graphite anode about 2 inch tall, would light up the room when running.

I went to a fabulous high school- Cass Tech in Detroit. What I learned there in my 3 years has been of more use to me that all my college work. We had house wiring, single phase motors, three phase motors, radio, TV and industrial electronics. It was a tough school- you had to pass an entrance exam, then keep up your grades- my freshman electrical class had nearly 500, about 50 of us made it to graduation. The rest went back to their local high school.


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## Tin Falcon (May 11, 2012)

It seems like this thread is already wandering. so will wander along. I was in a general High school and mostly took general classes. I took a full schedule IMHO study halls were a wast of time. So I took whatever extra classes that looked interesting including, photography and graphic arts. The xtra classes landed me my first real job. I made silk screens for 6 1/2 years ran an art department for about 1 1/2 years of it. 
Back to the subject at hand , In high school my main interest was electronics . Our school used the Navy basic electronics program. And I was in the science club. the leader of the science club built a tesla coil . it would put out 1,000,0000 volts stepped up from the standard 120 from the wall. It started with a transformer from a neon light. then it was hooded to a primary could about the size of large coffee can about 6" diameter and 8" high the secondary coil was IIRC wrapped around a gift paper roll 1 11/2 diameter 3 ft long . it was hoked to a LARGE capacitor . the cap was a home made deal a wooden box two foot by by three foot and 5 inches deep it had layers of plate glass and aluminium foil and filled with motor oil. it was tuned with a small spark gap. 
it would jump a spark a foot through dry air. 
Tin


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## Don1966 (May 11, 2012)

Pat this is my Binary Clock. What is unique about this clock is that it tells time in the Binary Weighing System. Which is 1,2,4,8 from the bottom LEDS up toward the top LED's. The Red LEDs are the ones that tell time, you simply add the red LEDs lit in the same column and you get the time. Looking at the large Photo the time is 1:12:34. This clock sits on my desk and makes a good conversation piece. The other thing that makes it unique is this is the same as our computer system which is converted to Hexidecimal for the assembly language source code and compiled to a more user friendly code like windows source code.
It was built from scratch, I layed out the traces, made a template and etched the circuit.. This clock was featured in Popular Electronic magazine in 1993.

Don


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## Foozer (May 11, 2012)

maybe I am slow, or so the bride says. 
Gets me though as to why a conductor passed through a magnetic field causes the electron to move in the first place.

Robert


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## Don1966 (May 11, 2012)

Tin that sounded very interesting. A lot of these were built with home made parts. The capacitor and the inductor both home made the two form a resonance circuit, this is were you get the high frequency from. The spark gap is used to trigger the primary coil resonance circuit and the high voltage is produced by the many turn of the secondary inductor. One unique thing about the secondary inductor, looking at mind, most of the tower coil is above the primary coil which is the black wire. The influence of the primary is felt the whole length of the tower coil, yet it has only one quarter of it around the primary.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> maybe I am slow, or so the bride says.
> Gets me though as to why a conductor passed through a magnetic field causes the electron to move in the first place.
> 
> Robert


Robert a lot of people have wondered that for decades. Electricity is a unknown phenomenon. We know how to use it, but we don't know what it is. According to Tesla it is in the Ether and all around us, but he also said he did not know where it came from, yet we have learned to harness but a fraction of it. Tesla knew more about it as did Ed Leedskalnin. Ed could actually see the the magnetic field surrounding the earth, people have said that he could see a distortion in it and this is we're he built the Coral Castle in Flordia by him self. One thing I did not mention about Ed he only weighed 75 pounds, think about that.


Regards Don


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## Foozer (May 11, 2012)

"Robert a lot of people have wondered that for decades."

What has always bugged me, where the energy comes from to move the electron.
Have yet to find any info to suggest the magnet itself looses force, or the electron supply is diminished. Seems to be a neutral effect to both parties. Being neutral would think the effect sould be neutral, no movement.
Perhaps Tesla is right, the Ether, the same force causing expansion and acceleration of that expansion to the universe.
Would indeed be a source of energy to identify and harness the "Ether."

Guess we wait until another Tesla is born for that answer to arrive

Robert


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## JorgensenSteam (May 11, 2012)

The only high voltage coil I ever had was a gag book that was rigged to give you a terrific shock when you opened it. I bought it out of the back of a comic book, where you could buy all sorts of gag stuff.

I did pretty good with the book shocking people and fellow 6th grade students, but then I made the mistake of letting the teacher open it (seemed like a good idea at the time). She shrieked and threw the thing across the room. Needless to say, my book got confiscated. Title on the book had a subtitle something like "Its a real shocker!".

We had several crystal radio sets, with antenna strung all throught the attic.

And a telegraph key practice set, which I never mastered, but my brother did.

You could make all sorts of electrical gadgets using kits from Radio Shack, and they all had discrete components, so you could get a better feel for what was happening then the modern "all-in-one" microchip.

My wife has some binary number jokes. I will ask here what they are.
I was always a bit confused by binary and the other non-base 10 systems. Gosh, I had enough trouble with the base 10 system.
I do remember being subjected to assembly code in school, and how tedious that was to do the shift registers and overflows, etc. We had one of the newer computers in one lab, which was a PDP11, and it had 12" floppy disks. Very modern for its time, but it ran assembly code. It had controlled outputs, etc.

We also had several analog computers in one lab, now that is an interesting computer, but very simple, just resistors, capacitors, and inductors, with knob control of the values for each.

Electronics has always confused me to a great extent, so I guess that is why I became a power distribution engineer, to avoid electronics. They keep creeping in on me though, such as with the VFD's, etc.

I have a Fortran compiler, and I still love that language. It took us to the moon (Fortran).

Yes this thread is meandering like a stream through the forest, but I am towards the end of a big project, and don't have the time to work on engines, so just a quick blog during break times, to relax and do something other than work.

I hope to get back into the modeling/casting thing in a few weeks, but hey, this thread is pretty interesting too.

I think I understand a little about physics, and if I understand correctly, matter is just very dense energy. If you split an atom, you can release a great deal of that energy. I assume the energy gets condensed into matter in the black holes.

As far as magnetic fields, light is an electromagnetic field, with its electrical and magnetic fields at 90 degrees. Why a conductor passing through a magnetic field causes the electrons to move in the wire, I don't understand.
And magnets further confuse me because nothing is moving with them, and yet they can push very hard on objects, but without touching them. Go figure. I do know the poles line up in all the material of a magnet, but that really does not explain it either.

Pat J


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## Don1966 (May 11, 2012)

Yes these invisible lines of force as we call them can be reproduced through magnetism. But yet what are they that is still unknown. Why they have the ability to cause electrons to move. Now here is another area that you can look at. How do we know it moves electrons? It could be the Ether itself that moves. All the books that have been written on the subject, is for us to understand how to use it and that is all. it is still a mystery.

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 11, 2012)

Since I have never been able to figure out the exact mechanism of how magnetism acts on electrons, etc., or even if there really are electrons, but instead, I just look at power flow, since it is real and can be measured.

Not sure exactly why the power flows, but it does flow.

My great grandmother was told not to touch a power line that had fallen in the street, and she said "it is obvious that there is nothing in that little wire that could hurt me".
Once she regained consciousness (she was not killed luckily), she said "now I believe there is something powerful in that little wire".


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## Don1966 (May 11, 2012)

Pat think about this the universe is a body, just like our body. Earth itself is an electron spinning in its own orbit in that body. This is how very limited man is as to how much he knows. Every text that his be written is subject to change within the next decade on the subject of physics. Our text have not been rewritten since Einstein. And lord knows we need another. There is only one man that understood his theory of relativity and he wrote a book about it. His name was Hendricks Antoon Lorentz. There are a lot of books on magnetism, but look up Ed Leedskalnin and read his theory about magnetism. There are no electrons in his papers every thing is north and south poles no atoms. Yet this little 75 pound man built a monument of coral for all the world to see by him self. Yet he said he knew how the pyramids were built.

Don


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## Troutsqueezer (May 11, 2012)

Don1966  said:
			
		

> Pat think about this the universe is a body, just like our body. Earth itself is an electron spinning in its own orbit in that body.
> Don



Sorry Don, that's another myth. 

The bottom line is that the old picture of the electron spinning around in an orbit (like a tiny solar system) is simply not right. The electrons are allowed to exist at very precise energies, but their position is spread out, described by a "wave of probability." In fact, it has been shown that the 1s and 2s electrons spend around 50% of their time sailing right through the nucleus.


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

You are correct Trout read it again it was just a example of how little man knows. One thing I never did research is how many small particles they have broken the Atom down to, I know there are many. In the 60's it was Electron, proton and neutrons. And the atom was the smallest particle of any substance this is no longer true. At least they made some progress. I also learn in the 60's about energy transfer we had two ways of learning one was conventional flow and the other energy transfer. Engery transfer was one atom transferring energy to an from another atom. I guess you know which method was choosen. Oh! yes and hole flow with semiconductors. I really don't want to get that far into physics because I am limited in that respect.

Don


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## RollaJohn (May 12, 2012)

Right!!! Now that opens a new can of worms.
Electrons and holes flowing in a semiconductor was presented in class with the analogy of a line of marbles. The marbles represented the electrons. When the marble on the end of the string moved it leaves a hole Then the next marble advances into the hole and the hole has moved two spaces down the line. This keeps repeating ... the marbles going one direction and the holes in the other until all the marbles have progressed and the hole that started at one end is now at the other.

This was easy to visualize and made sense. THEN ... the kicker was mentioned. The holes and electrons do not flow at the same rate, one is faster than the other! I decided not to worry about this and to treat it as a black box. Just accept it, know it happens, and pay attention to the results.


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## JorgensenSteam (May 12, 2012)

Yes, I agree, you could discuss it forever, and never really know exactly how it works, but what is really important is how does it effect things, and luckily this can be easily measured.

Pat J


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## Noitoen (May 12, 2012)

All I know is that, if you leave your Ether bottle uncapped, it will evaporate :big: :hDe:


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## mu38&Bg# (May 12, 2012)

I got to watch a rather large Telsa coil last summer. The demonstration was impressive. It was built by a few EE's just out of college.


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

Heh guys! I got a good question for you when you charge a capacitor were does the charge go?

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 12, 2012)

Wow, that photo brings to mind what my mother seemed to constantly ask me, which was "Is it safe to be doing that?".

My stock answer was always "Of course it is safe to be doing this, I would not be doing it if it were not safe", which translated meant "it is not safe, but I am too dumb to know the difference".

As I recall (it all gets a little hazy now, so don't slam me if I get it wrong) inductors store energy in the magnetic field and capacitors store energy in the electric field.

Lots of people have been zapped by the old TV's that did not have an automatic method to discharge the capacitors when the set was unplugged from the wall.

Pat J


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

Partial correct but where is the Electric Field?

Don


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## Noitoen (May 12, 2012)

Two plates, separated by a dielectric, one "robbed" of the electrons and left with holes and the other with the exact amount of excess electrons to fill the holes.


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## mu38&Bg# (May 12, 2012)

Yes, the guy in that photo is safe. He's wearing a chain link metal suit with a wire cage over his head. That doesn't mean he wasn't nervous trying to touch the arc.


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

Yes that is awesome photo dieselpilot I have seen many if these guys go so far as to build these towers in there back yard and make it shoot into the sky. And these were not small towers bt huge.

Noiteon that is not correct given a hint you can take the two plates and seperate them from the dialect and touch them together and nothing will happen. So where is the electric field?

Don


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## Noitoen (May 12, 2012)

I would think that if you separate the plates after they are charged, they would keep the charge much like a a comb charged with static or doesn't it?


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## purpleknif (May 12, 2012)

Ya know, you guys are gettin into some heavy physics here. When I watch those shows on the Discovery Channel and there's something I don't quite get I ask my wife about some of the math and such. She has a PhD in abstract mathematics. Her answer is always the same. "That's physics. Physicists are all wackos."


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

I would not call it heavy physics but basic Electronics.

Back to you Noitoen the plates were touched together would that not discharge them even by touching them?
It might be hard to believe, but the charge exist on the outer surface of the dialectic. The way to prove this is to charge a capacitor you can take apart charge it with high voltage and take it apart. But be careful when you do, use a insulator to seperate the plates when you remove it from the dialectic. Short them together and place it back together then discharge it.

Regards Don


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## Stan (May 12, 2012)

That is interesting. If the charge is on the dielectric, do capacitors with air as the dielectric work the same way?


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## Herbiev (May 12, 2012)

Don. IIRC c=ak/d. C is capacitance, a=area of plates, k= dielectric constant and d= distance between plates. If we use air as the dielectric ( as in the old tuning capacitors) would not the charge dissipate when the plates are removed as both "a" and "d" have been drastically altered or am I missing the point. It's been 50 years since I did my electronics course in the telecommunications field. In those days we called them condensers and were told that a 1 farad condenser would be the size of a city building. Boy times have changed. ;D


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

I had done some test with air as a dielectric, as long as the plates are close together the charge remains. But once you move them apart the put them back close together the charge is gone. The charge will reside on the outer surface of the plates, but not on the plates. That is the only explaination i an give you about air. And when you turn a capacitor like a radio the charge should still be there and changes as per surface area and dielectric area. Don't get me wrong here this is not something I came up with, but fact. Try the test I had mentioned.
 After posting this I did some searching and there seems to be some misconception between low voltage and high voltage capacitors so please read http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html 

Regards Don


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## Don1966 (May 12, 2012)

If this guy is correct I also have been mislead this is not what I want. Thank you Stan and Herbiev for your questions. I had been taught that the charge moved form one plate to the next and resided in the plates, but through the years of reading researches had changed my mind this guy makes sense. I had done the test myself with high voltage and the Corna effect makes sense. I don't want to mislead anyone so please read the link below.

Regards Don


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## kf2qd (May 12, 2012)

THe problem with the capacitor explanations is that the charge level is relatively low, and in the case of a tuning capacitor, it is operating under AC and not DC. You would have to separate the plates extremely quickly to be able to "store" the charge.

A charge can "stick" to a plate - I remeber the cat pelt and a plastic surface. Rub the fur and charge the surface and then the had an aluminum disk attached to an insulated handle - slap the disk on the plastic surface and then transfer the charge to some device that would indicate the charge.

Or - rub a ballon against your head - won't work for the bald guys - and ten "hang" the balloon on the wall.

If you make a large enough capacitor - 100's or 1000's of Farads, not micro or Pico Farads. charge it, and then unpeel it and you would find both both plates would have a charge - one low on electrons - the positive plate , and one with extra electrons a negative charge -


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## Foozer (May 13, 2012)

Other ting that always queried my mind is the speed of the electron.
Rumor is "Speed of Light" The light photons from the sun move slow from the internal to the surface where they transition to the speed of light. HUH?
How? What changes to change its speed, as its speed increases something must diminish to keep equality. Time itself as the variable?

Same with the electron, (conductor) its sitting doing its attraction repulsion dance on the nucleus and soon as a mag field is walked by the electron does the SOL fly to the next atom in line. Its not dancing at the SOL, Perhaps I just better stick to shinny things and be happy.

Robert


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## Herbiev (May 13, 2012)

Don. You mention that " The charge will reside on the outer surface of the plates, but not on the plates." It is interesting to note that in the early days the charge was thought to collect on the plates due to condensation, hence the name "condenser". 
What I find more interesting is how this c#%p stayed in my mind for nearly 50 years when I only needed it for a couple of days just to pass an exam. Ask me what I had for dinner yesterday, and I'm stumped ???


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## steamer (May 13, 2012)

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Other ting that always queried my mind is the speed of the electron.
> Rumor is "Speed of Light" The light photons from the sun move slow from the internal to the surface where they transition to the speed of light. HUH?
> How? What changes to change its speed, as its speed increases something must diminish to keep equality. Time itself as the variable?
> 
> ...



I've stuck with the shiny bits and it works just fine for me! :big:


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## Noitoen (May 13, 2012)

The capacitance is increased by increasing the surface area of the plates. To do this without increasing the "physical" size, the surface of the plates are etched creating little valleys and mountains. Much like the cortex of the brain at a smaller scale.


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## Stan (May 13, 2012)

We are surrounded with high voltage air dielectric capacitors. Some times they short out (lightning) and sometimes the charge just disappears. Interesting discussion!


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## Foozer (May 13, 2012)

steamer  said:
			
		

> I've stuck with the shiny bits and it works just fine for me! :big:



Less Aspirin that way cause I keep getting to something outside our universe that is pulling our expansion rather than an internal effect pushing it outward.

OHH Shinny thing! Mine!


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## JorgensenSteam (May 14, 2012)

I have been out of town for a few days.
I will have to think about the answer of where the field is stored.

I think the speed of light is tied to the permeability of free space.

Pat J


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## Foozer (May 14, 2012)

UNIcastings  said:
			
		

> I have been out of town for a few days.
> I will have to think about the answer of where the field is stored.
> 
> I think the speed of light is tied to the permeability of free space.
> ...



As free space is expanding, as theory goes, the speed of light must also change to maintain our concept of equilibrium.

Ya shinny things much easier to deal with for this old confused brain 

Robert


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## Don1966 (May 14, 2012)

I have been busy myself, I lost one of my toys this weekend. The photos is a 2650KVA 690Volt Generator as you can see the winding is pretty messed up. The customer asked me to find the cause and if you look at the two last photos edited in red you can see it. This Generator operates at 1800RPM the coil former hubs virbrated loose and broke the U coil supporters, these are like metal straps. When they broke off they flew into the winding and started the ball rolling tearing into the resinglass banding and distroying it. The other problem was bearing hub ware where the bearings were eating into the hub housing.As you know the customer is not very happy, as this generator is 5 years old and they have 24 of these. This same problem will exist in the others because they are built the same. The Rotating fields had signs on the oppose side, where the banding straps are breaking also.Well it looks like I open Pandora's box for them and this is making them very unhappy right now. There are four of these per vessel operating in parallel together.

Don


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## JorgensenSteam (May 14, 2012)

I go around and around with clients about preventative maintenance, and replacing equipment BEFORE it self-destructs.

A typical converstation goes like this (this is a recent example):

Me: Your unit substation is in very bad shape. You need to replace it now.
Owner: We can't replace it, we don't have the money.
Me: You need to replace it now. You don't have the money not to replace it. Think about how much a prolonged shutdown for this unit will cost you.
Owner: We typically operate electrical equipment to failure.
Me: Is that a smart way to operate electrical equipment?

And on and on, ad nauseum.
Luckily, many/most operators of large privately owned plants stay on top of maintenance. The only plants that consistently use deferred maintenance are the politically operated facilities, and then it is a matter of politicians spending the money that should be used for preventative maintenance to buy votes.

Pat J


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