# Lathes



## mrbugbums (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm currently thinking of buying the mini lathe (link below) from BusyBee tools because I have no experience and want to get started somewhere.  It's painful to think of for just another 2 grand I could get a real lathe, but on the other hand buying the small one will maybe be slightly easier and safer.  maybe easier for my wife to get involved started also,  its portable.  easy to pass on to my son and have him get started with machining also.
Because we plan to move this summer I don't want to buy something right now that weighs a tonne just to be moved again also.

I am just a brand new beginner with no experience so any advice would be appreciated for which attachments I need to get with it to get started.  I'm guessing that nothing on the small unit is compatible transferable to the real lathe which I will buy this summer.
There is a list of attachments and parts on the webpage and I don't know where to begin.  I'm hoping to also practice milling with the small unit also to start learning the concept of milling.  so it has an attachment they sell "milling attachment".
Is it too complicated or vague to ask you for a list of what I need to go with this so I can start turning and milling small things?

LATHE MINI 7IN. X12IN. 1/2HP CX SERIES CSA CX704

Thank-you kindly for your feedback, discouragement and encouragement: all are very welcome.
Stephan Prystanski
Ottawa, Ontario


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## HennieL (Feb 20, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> I am just a brand new beginner with no experience so any advice would be appreciated for which attachments I need to get with it to get started.  I'm guessing that nothing on the small unit is compatible transferable to the real lathe which I will buy this summer.


Looking at the list, I would suggest that you get

the drill chuck, and a set of drill bits. The drill bits will be usable on your future larger lathe, and thus only the chuck will be wasted.
The center drills will also be usable on your larger lathe in the future, and are a "must" for starting your drilling accurately.
the precision dial gauge set will also not be wasted, as you will be able to use them with the larger lathe as well.
You will also need some HSS tool blanks (carbide inserts will probably be a waste of money on that little lathe...) and a bench or belt grinder to sharpen them. That lathe will probably take 8mm (or 10mm at the most) sized tools.

A chip tray/pan slightly larger than the lathe (to be placed below the lathe) will help to keep all the metal chips from invading your house. Oh, and a good bright light will also be useful - a smallish LED garden spotlight will work fine.

As for the milling attachment, you will need a collet chuck to fit the mill (could come standard with the unit...), and a set of collets to fit your milling cutters - and of course some HSS-Co two-flute and four-flute cutters.

I suggest you buy the mill cutters and any other tools when you need them - this way you don't waste money buying unnecessary.

Good luck, and enjoy your new toy 

Hennie


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## HennieL (Feb 20, 2021)

In case you're interested, I started with this little one:






before upgrading to this:


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## RM-MN (Feb 20, 2021)

HennieL said:


> Looking at the list, I would suggest that you get
> 
> the drill chuck, and a set of drill bits. The drill bits will be usable on your future larger lathe, and thus only the chuck will be wasted.
> The center drills will also be usable on your larger lathe in the future, and are a "must" for starting your drilling accurately.
> ...



I have the longer version of that (or very similar) lathe.  The drill chuck will attach to a MT2 taper that fits the tailstock.  This will fit many bigger lathes too so it won't be wasted.  I use a mixture of HSS and carbide insert tool bits.  The inserts are shaped correctly and cut very well.  Unless you have a grinder, an hour or two to practice, and patience, skip the HSS bits.  Carbide inserts have changed a lot in the last few years and the ones sized for that lathe work fine.  The specifications say it takes a 5/16" tool. That is close enough to 8 mm so you can choose which way to go on those.  I use a LED sewing machine light with a magnetic base.  I put it on the backsplash and can position it to see whatever.  I think the lathe comes with a chip pan but be aware that you will have chips going everywhere, not just in the chip pan.  I have a broom dedicated to that area and need to sweep the floor every time I use the lathe.

Milling on that lathe will be painfully slow and the lathe bed isn't really rigid enough so you may have difficulty keeping any kind of accuracy.  Until you clean the lathe thoroughly and tighten up the cross slide and compound you will have difficulty keeping accuracy with the lathe too.  Being honest, the bed simply doesn't have enough cast iron for good stability.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 21, 2021)

RM-MN said:


> Milling on that lathe will be painfully slow and the lathe bed isn't really rigid enough so you may have difficulty keeping any kind of accuracy.  Until you clean the lathe thoroughly and tighten up the cross slide and compound you will have difficulty keeping accuracy with the lathe too.  Being honest, the bed simply doesn't have enough cast iron for good stability.



Well-- it all depends pm what one has-- and perhaps more importantly- how skilled one is.
Looking back over- well to 1973-ish- there were no milling machines available  for the home machinist.  The nearest one could get was a second hand almost knackered shapimg machine and even when 'milling machines' became available,  you had to make the bloody things.
Durinmg that awfully long period  from when Mr Maudsley made lathes to be pedalled, people actually became skilled at the things that are now 'Black Art' on that thing that is nailed to the wall called-- a faceplate.  My Myford like all except the ML10 will accept a swing of perhaps 10 or more inches whereas a 7X lathe will swing about 7 inches. If, think about it, there was a gap in the bed on a 7X, it would be nigh impossible to actually utilise the facility because many of today's lathes- out of the Far East's lowest speeds are either 100 or a terrifying 130 RPM whilst screwcutting.  Perhaps, people don't know how to screwcut anyway.
Musing further, the average lathe- all bright and shiny was actually designed BEFORE the  arrival of the carbides-- and the arrival of hss tooling arrived and the designers- long gone now- designed their goods to work on home tempered high-ish carbon steel.
I'm not a heretic - I am simply old enough to have a everso long age and the memory which complements it.

The strange thing is that many, not all- who can afford it- mangle their happy hours. on a very dated and obsolete Myford. 
As an idle sort of Dodo,  I'm sitting with Mark 1 Quorn which I made on a decayed and almost obsolete Myford( then) and a 2007 Sieg C4---and the Sieg is unable to be able to machine it.

Dear old  Proff Chaddock made his Quorn in a machine that was designed to be tredaled-- and he made a Vee 6 on it-- and the- and only then made his milling machine from a set of part machined castings. I did much the same with an even early verson- from Ned Westbury's design.
Mine was run- would you believe- was powered with a 1440rpm Quarter Hose  ex- washing machine motor.
My story- remember

Regards

Norman


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## HennieL (Feb 21, 2021)

RM-MN said:


> The drill chuck will attach to a MT2 taper that fits the tailstock.  This will fit many bigger lathes too so it won't be wasted.


That would depend on the size of the "larger" lathe - most lathes in the 1 meter bed size have MT5-6 on the head, and MT3-4 on the tailstock. One could obviously use a MT2-MT3 adapter but personally I prefer to eliminate that potential "tolerance multiplier" whenever possible. I am not saying that a MT2 drill chuck will be totally wasted, though - it could quite possibly fit on the milling machine, and will likely also fit on a small pedestal drill - but in my humble opinion it will be wasted on the larger lathe...



> I use a mixture of HSS and carbide insert tool bits.  The inserts are shaped correctly and cut very well.  Unless you have a grinder, an hour or two to practice, and patience, skip the HSS bits.  Carbide inserts have changed a lot in the last few years and the ones sized for that lathe work fine.


Personally, I think that anyone who wants to use a lathe should learn the basic skill to grind his/her own tool bits. Not only will that become necessary when a "non-standard" bit is required, but it also helps one to understand how the lathe is cutting, which then helps one to figure out what went wrong if, e.g. the surface is not as smooth as expected, or the cutter just rubs and won't cut the particular metal. Using such a nonrigid little lathe one would like to get all the help one can, and a properly ground HSS-Co bit would likely take smoother, and thinner, cuts than a carbide insert, and with less stress on the lathe. Judging by Mrbugbums' previous posts, I get the idea that he is keen to learn as much as he can by using this little lathe, and it's my guess that he would thus also be keen to learn how to grind his own bits...



> I use a LED sewing machine light with a magnetic base.  I put it on the backsplash and can position it to see whatever.


Very good idea 



> I think the lathe comes with a chip pan but be aware that you will have chips going everywhere, not just in the chip pan.  I have a broom dedicated to that area and need to sweep the floor every time I use the lathe.


Again, I totally agree - especially when working with brass - that just gets into everything


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## aRM (Feb 21, 2021)

HennieL said:


> In case you're interested, I started with this little one:
> View attachment 123289
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jules (Feb 21, 2021)

I don’t want to sound negative towards little lathes but if I were in your shoes I would wait until I had moved and buy the biggest lathe and mill I could house in my workshop. 
I think they are much easier to learn on. 
Definitely safer. 
Will produce accurate parts. 
If you are lucky to get a mini lathe that was built properly then you could learn on it. Most of them are poor quality and inherently inaccurate. You are then fighting against a bad machine. 
We have a saying,”A bad workman always blames his tools,” and it is often the case but that was definitely before cheap Chinese lathes were on sale.


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## RM-MN (Feb 21, 2021)

Jules said:


> I don’t want to sound negative towards little lathes but if I were in your shoes I would wait until I had moved and buy the biggest lathe and mill I could house in my workshop.
> I think they are much easier to learn on.
> Definitely safer.
> Will produce accurate parts.
> ...



One of my acquantaince's good friend died suddenly and unexpectedly yesterday.  Life is short and we never know when our time is up.  Buy the little lathe, learn what you can on it, especially how to adjust the moving parts and what tools do what operation.  Those will all translate to the bigger lathe and if the move never happens, he will have a little lathe to work with.  With time learning to adjust these little lathes are capable of a lot of operations.


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## mrbugbums (Feb 21, 2021)

I’ve a lot of experience with my other forum. Years. 600 people sharing a wide range of opinions on various topics.  I love all of them.


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## PRiggs78 (Feb 21, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> I'm currently thinking of buying the mini lathe (link below) from BusyBee tools because I have no experience and want to get started somewhere.  It's painful to think of for just another 2 grand I could get a real lathe, but on the other hand buying the small one will maybe be slightly easier and safer.  maybe easier for my wife to get involved started also,  its portable.  easy to pass on to my son and have him get started with machining also.
> Because we plan to move this summer I don't want to buy something right now that weighs a tonne just to be moved again also.
> 
> I am just a brand new beginner with no experience so any advice would be appreciated for which attachments I need to get with it to get started.  I'm guessing that nothing on the small unit is compatible transferable to the real lathe which I will buy this summer.
> ...



That lathe is no different than many found elsewhere for less.  For example, the Harbor Freight 7x12; all of which are Asian (Chinese) made.

For the same money and awesome customer service, look into the Grizzly G0765 lathe.  It is the same price and bigger at 7x14 size.  I have one which I learned on and still use it regularly.

Grizzly is a U.S. company with distribution locations in the U.S.


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## mrbugbums (Feb 21, 2021)

right on.....Senor Priggs.   i'd love to hear one or a few specific items you still like to make with the smaller one.   I'll check that out right away.   we used to buy things from USA and drive 100kms south of Ottawa Ogdensburg.  i would need to look into recent rules.   maybe with covid they don't allow cross border for non work related visits...and my passport is expired....shite 
maybe they have shipping options.    so complicated. and shipping fees......
any ideas?


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## PRiggs78 (Feb 21, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> right on.....Senor Priggs.   i'd love to hear one or a few specific items you still like to make with the smaller one.   I'll check that out right away.   we used to buy things from USA and drive 100kms south of Ottawa Ogdensburg.  i would need to look into recent rules.   maybe with covid they don't allow cross border for non work related visits...and my passport is expired....shite
> maybe they have shipping options.    so complicated. and shipping fees......
> any ideas?



Yes, sir.  Basically use it for all small items still.  For example: pistons, sleeves/liners, air rifle valves, barrel threading, etc.  All things that fit that spindle bore of approx .80" (run stock through chuck).  Though, have gotten bigger chucks over time in both 3 and 4 jaw configuration which allow for larger stock holding.  Even have collet sets too (a must for incredible precision).  Heck, those are Asian too.  Purchaser a whole set on eBay for 40 bucks new.  

Not all items Chinese are crud.  Just look around and and you will see the same product with different label and prices all over the map.

Also, the motor is rated at 3/4 HP over the 1/2 HP you linked.  Also comes with accessories to get you going.

Tip:  if you call Grizzly, say you decided you do want that G0765, or anything else, ask if you can get a discount.  They for sure will apply 10-20 percent coupon.

Happened every single time I ordered from them.


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## ninefinger (Feb 21, 2021)

You won't be crossing the border for shopping any time soon, and it won't be economical (must pay for covid test, quarantine required on return even if you just set foot across the border for 1 second)...

Living in Ottawa, I know.  

As far as a lathe goes, I have a basically new 7x14 sitting under my bench, and can say that its OK, but you won't be milling with it, and it does have its limitations.  I also have 2 others (another small lathe - Emco compact 5 cnc, and Standard Modern 1334)

I guess one big question is what do you want to make? and will the parts fit on the lathe?

The slightly larger lathes are not all that hard to move, and are much more capable.
The real secret to moving them is to take them apart into manageable pieces by removing the saddle, tailstock, headstock. Then you have 4 pieces that can be handled relatively easily (the bed being the 4th piece).

That way you don't need special equipment for moving the 10 to 12" swing lathes sold at Busybee etc.  A Monarch 10EE is another story...

Disassembly is also recommended anyways to clean these machines up anyways when bought new, to ensure that all is ok.

And lastly - don't be tempted to get the 3-in-1 that Busybee sell.  I had one and won't go into detail here but its a series of compromises that don't play well together.

So my recommendation is if you can hold out for a larger lathe then do so.
As for accessories, the most important in my opinion:
Tailstock drill chuck (get a keyless one)
Dial test indicator
independent 4 jaw chuck (assuming a 3 jaw came with the machine)
a few cutting tools (can be sourced from China for cheap, with replaceable carbide inserts) or HSS tools

Regards,
Mike


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## Henry K (Feb 21, 2021)

Just a few thoughts on the 7x12 Busy Bee lathe. 12 inches is between centers.
1) If you are using a lathe chuck it sticks out perhaps 2 inches beyond what  a center sticks out.
2) A drill chuck will also stick out about 2 inches beyond a center point - all these are rough guesses.
3) A typical, not stub, 1/2" drill sticks  out perhaps 4 inches beyond the drill chuck.

Add the dimensions above and the longest protrusion from the lathe chuck is 12" - 8" = 4"
If that is OK for you, then that is fine, but it is an unavoidable part size constraint. You may want to consider a longer bed length. Only a 4" increase in bed length actually doubles the possible length protrusion from the lathe chuck. In this comment.
Have fun machining!


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## mrbugbums (Feb 21, 2021)

thank you nine finger.   I am seven toe.     got hit by car on motorcycle at age 17,  amputee...   good times...  so much more humble now....
as crazy as some readers no doubt find me...... well im just insanely passionate about everythign i do...including dreaming about getting these tools....
like i said...i'm just researching... and voila...sure enough by me posing the plan, question..idea of the minilathe...as i expected and hoped...many opinions chime it to help reason a choice.
so its a few more points in the bigger lathe side of tabulating points  for and against mini vs larger.
thank you for finally answering my questions which i only recently asked busybee and here whether the bigger lathes in fact are capable of being taken apart to moveable parts.
so along your awesome exciting opinion that they can... yeah but lets take a closer look at the models....so in favor of your exciting news....yes disassembly is possible.....but...with which units?  sounds like you are familiar with busybee so....should i post the link? sure why not... and i will follow up ask....can the 707 be disassembled to parts under 300lbs each? if so that is easy to move with a friend.  A very good friend of mine is a professional mover.  he does NOT have an elevator lift on his truck, but ramps.  we have 2 upright pianos and a smaller piano.... those are insane to move but very doable placed on small things with wheels like castors etc.    
i sent an email to busybee asking if the 707 can be disassembled to 300 lb parts and under.   if so....then i see no reason not to get the 707.  yes we want to move asap but who knows....i guess there is a slight possibility of not moving for another year. 
the mini definitely has points for perhaps easier safer for my wife. but wow... reading the threads...sure makes the mini appear horribly inept.


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## Danuzzo (Feb 21, 2021)

Stephan, have you considered the Taig lathe and a Taig mill. These are smaller than the mini lathes. However, they are quite capable. They are quality made in USA. The telephone and email support is excellent.  I liked my first Taig lathe (purchased used) so much that I ended up buying another with powerfeed. However, they do not thread. Accuracy is great; easily moved. 

So, if your intent is to get a bigger lathe later, the Taig would be a great one to have initially to learn upon, and then to keep for smaller items. The mill is also very nice.  You can check them out at taigtools.com. There are also various videos on Youtube.


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## HennieL (Feb 21, 2021)

aRM said:


> I'm  wanting  a  small  lathe like  Your COMPACT 5.   However, we  do have  a Larger one.  Would  dearly love an EMCO  COMPACT like  Yours or even  a  Smaller One to start PEN Turning and maybe turn Rosary Beads etc.
> Do kindly let us know if U hear or know of someone Selling one at a reasonable Price.


Hi aRM, I don't see your location in your profile - are you in South Africa? I very rarely use the little Emco these days - just too frustrating, compared to using my larger Chinese lathe, but I'm also not too keen to part with it. Send me a PM if you are from SA, and we can perhaps make a plan...


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## ninefinger (Feb 21, 2021)

With respect to "safer", even a mini lathe can hurt you if not paying attention or careless.  Hair tied up, no loose clothing etc.  Use safe work practice no matter the size.  Respect the machine, it doesn't know or care if its cutting metal or you.

I would expect the 707 from Busybee will break down to parts around or below your 300lbs max.  Looking at the manual shows all the separate parts (headstock, apron, bed, saddle, compound, tailstock, gearbox and feed screw, chucks, motor, etc.).  Basically that is how I got my Standard Modern into my basement (and out and back to a new basement!).  Headstock was strapped to a 2 wheel dolly , the bed could be lifted with 2 people, and all the other parts were liftable by one strong person or could be put on a dolly.  For my machine the stand was actually the heaviest piece as it did not disassemble and was both heavy and hard to handle.  Looks like the 707 doesn't have that issue.

Only issue I see with it is that the headstock doesn't appear to be set on the vee ways of the bed, meaning that realignment after reassembly is (potentially) more difficult. 

Mike


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## awake (Feb 21, 2021)

Hi Stephan,

I know the conventional wisdom is that these small Chinese lathes are inevitably poor quality, a waste of time, etc. ... but my only experience with one is generally positive. I have a Grizzly 7 x 14, and even though I have a much larger lathe (in the 2,000 lb. vicinity), I find it useful to have this small one on hand as well. To be sure, the 7 x 14 cannot take off metal nearly as quickly as my larger lathe can, nor can it handle the larger stock very well or at all, and the lack of a quick change gear box or power cross feed is inconvenient ... and yet I still use the 7 x 14 all the time. Within its limits it is quite precise. I am sure there are lemons in the mix, but at least this one example of the breed suggests that it could be money well spent.

I will say that if you can possibly get the longer version ( x 14 rather than x 12 ), do so - when it comes to drilling stock, allowing for the length of the drill bit and the chuck, you run out of bed real quick.

One other possible (??) source - does Little Machine Shop serve your area? If so, they offer an upgraded version of the 7 x minilathes, as well as a full catalog of accessories. I don't know how they compare on price, and don't know that they are any better than the Busy Bee, but may be another option ...


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## Peter Murphy (Feb 22, 2021)

Hi Stephan,
I am also fairly new also, but is is amazing what some people do with their mini lathes.
One thing that I would do if I was purchasing a new lathe ( mine is a 1985 Taiwanese copy of an Emco Compact 8) is find one that has the carriage handle to the right of the cross slide & compound. Not nice getting hot chips on your hand when manually turning. A power cross slide would be a nice handy feature if it is within your budget. 
Cheers Peter from Oz


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## Richard Hed (Feb 22, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> right on.....Senor Priggs.   i'd love to hear one or a few specific items you still like to make with the smaller one.   I'll check that out right away.   we used to buy things from USA and drive 100kms south of Ottawa Ogdensburg.  i would need to look into recent rules.   maybe with covid they don't allow cross border for non work related visits...and my passport is expired....shite
> maybe they have shipping options.    so complicated. and shipping fees......
> any ideas?


About 15 years ago, I bought an Enco, the 9-20, having workt with larger machines, I did not notice the "lack of small print" which DID NOT say the machine would not cut left hand threads.  Well, I bouth it in order to do left hand threads when I could not buy a left hand tap or die.  So, I definitely blame my machine!  a mere 2 months later, I discovered "GRIZZ", Grizzly and they had the same sized lathe for less and it CUT LH THREADS!  Was I pisst.  So whatever you decide on, try to learn what a lathe should have, what it should do, how you will use it and make a list of all the correct things.  You might study what the larger lathes are capable of, then write down what is necessary for you and make sure that whatever lathe you buy has what you will be needing.

There has been a discussion on cut off tools and techniques on the back side of the cross slide.  You cannot do this safely if you have a spindle nose that has threads.  So be sure to check out what kind of spindle nose you get.  My Enco was threaded which caused me a lot of trouble.  I bout a Grizz in January which so far, I am very happ7y with. It cuts like a hot knife thru hot lard--it has a D1-5 spindle nose which will not unwind when doing reverse cuts.  Don't forget to look into how large the spindle hole is, this will be the maximum size for a long rod to fit into your machine.  I would have liked to have 2" but the price goes way up for larger spindle holes.  Mine is 1-1/2" which is certainly OK for most projects.  For the tail stock, try to get one that has a lever hold down and release, the Enco had a wrench lock down and un lock, what a pain in the oss.  Some of the bigger lathes have a magnetic brake, one is feature on the large machine above in Hennie's post--it is the lever at the foot of the machine.  Those are nice, especially in an emergency.

One of the most important items is lots of change gears and of course levers that change speeds and feed rates.  The Enco had a grand total of 6 speeds, the slowest of which is 130RPM which is too fast to cut threads in a lot of cases.  Also, I had to change the change gears too often.  With the Grizz, I only have to make a change (so far) when changing from metric to imperial and vice versa.  One of the bad things, as someone said above, is that the smaller the machine, the faster is the slowest speed.  sometimes you want to go REALLY slow.  *I read, years ago, that you can cut rock even on a lathe but yo0u need about 40 or even less RPMs.  If you get a small machine, it is likely that they will give you a plastic drive gear which suprizingly is quite good.  I wreckt my first one and they had a second one in the kit, so that workt out but now I am without a spare.  I will eventually try to make an aluminum one or even steel if I can get the right sized disc.

There are lots of things you will want if you know what it is that you want.  Problem is, that starting on a small "kiddie toy" as I call them, you will not find out the things you want to find out.  A large lathe will have more features.  My recommend is to get the largest lathe you can comfortably get into you shop that you can afford.  This may abe going too far, as you might be ablt to afford a machine like a friend of mine just bought for his professional machine shop:  it is about 18 feet long, has a 6" spindle, weighs in at a mere 22,000 lbs.  The four jaw proably weighs in at about the same as my whole Grizz!  I got to touch the lathe and of course I worshipped at it's 20 odd feet.  MY friend thot that was pretty strange, bowing down to the Idol of Machines and kissing it's feets, but he gave me a whole lot of scrap from his scrap bin.

BTW, as for moving a machine without an overhead arm, you might just get the largest engine hoist you can find.  I moved a lathe weighing 1400lbs with a simple engine hoist which I bought just for that reason by lifting the carton up off the pickup bed a couple inches, carefully moving the pickup, then lowering the hoist to the ground.  then I put the carton on pipe rollers and moved it in the garage.  My son helpt me, it's a two man job, not out of difficulty, but rather for safety reasons.  I thimpfk you probably will not be getting a lathe that weighs in a t 22000 lbs, it might crush hyour pickup but something less than 2000lbs hyou could most likely do with an engine hoist.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 22, 2021)

I don't think that I want a Charles Atlas course in weighlifting- not having done anything violent for 35 years but the 918/920 lathe did interest me sufficiently to buy one.  Mine was an Axminster 918 and had a Myford spindle which allowed me to transfer almost all my Myford accessories including onto a true lathe which my old Myford certainly was not.
Of course, it couldn't cut left handed- or a lot of other things but with the addition gear in Module 1 with a better banjo woukd do that and a lot more besides.  The  next snag wss the 100rpm lowest speed which in the UK is a frightening 130RPM.   Don't ask why or how  because my association with electricity id  reasonably fat monthly  pension cheque which arrived regularly for the last 36 years.  Model engineer and Model Engineers Workshop abounded with sensible modifications to drop the revs but finally Axminster became weary of perspiring Brits and even my change over to three phase became tiresome=== and I sold it and bought a better Myford.
Concluding, the machine was good enough to contributed to making a very nice tool and cutter grinder- so few gripes from me.

An interesting machine spoiled by niggling faults because it had a great gearbox for the miserably low price

Nornan


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## ajoeiam (Feb 22, 2021)

HennieL said:


> That would depend on the size of the "larger" lathe - most lathes in the 1 meter bed size have MT5-6 on the head, and MT3-4 on the tailstock. One could obviously use a MT2-MT3 adapter but personally I prefer to eliminate that potential "tolerance multiplier" whenever possible. I am not saying that a MT2 drill chuck will be totally wasted, though - it could quite possibly fit on the milling machine, and will likely also fit on a small pedestal drill - but in my humble opinion it will be wasted on the larger lathe...
> 
> 
> Personally, I think that anyone who wants to use a lathe should learn the basic skill to grind his/her own tool bits. Not only will that become necessary when a "non-standard" bit is required, but it also helps one to understand how the lathe is cutting, which then helps one to figure out what went wrong if, e.g. the surface is not as smooth as expected, or the cutter just rubs and won't cut the particular metal. Using such a nonrigid little lathe one would like to get all the help one can, and a properly ground HSS-Co bit would likely take smoother, and thinner, cuts than a carbide insert, and with less stress on the lathe. Judging by Mrbugbums' previous posts, I get the idea that he is keen to learn as much as he can by using this little lathe, and it's my guess that he would thus also be keen to learn how to grind his own bits...
> ...



Your comment " . . . prefer to eliminate that potential "tolerance multiplier" whenever possible." - - - if you keep your adapters clean - - - - you're quite likely going to have a hard time measuring any possible problems. In fact I think I can bet you a nice steak dinner that you will have far greater issues in sharpening the drills that have the MT3 or 4  ends to the level where you might even be able to measure any 'additional' runout. 

I would second your second paragraph. I was forced to learn quite a bit more than basic skills for sharpening tool bits. 
There are some incredible things that can be done with even cemented carbide but would second even the HSS ones use as well. 
Can move from a very soft brass and leave a mirror finish then move to a Ti (can't remember the alloy) also leaving that mirror finish and then to a 
17-4 Ph stainless and be able to hog off 0.100" radius (need some power to do that!) without having to have some really expensive inserts in your collection. 
The inserts most often need to be bought in groups of 10 which really can hit the wallet.


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## awake (Feb 22, 2021)

Something I just stumbled across this morning - here is a video of a guy doing quite a lot of milling operations on a lathe, without a milling attachment. I don't know that I would recommend some of these - they are a wee bit scary - but I have to admire his ingenuity:


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## packrat (Feb 22, 2021)

awake. Specking of Standard Modern lathe {made in Canada} I think poster should look in to finding one up there {Canada} and forget that Chinese lathe
all it is going to be is a headache. Watch YouTube and see how bad they are.. People spend lots of time and money trying to fix them.
Other option look for a used South Bend, Logan, Rockwell, Clausing, Craftsman/Atlas, Remember Stephan Prystanski is new to lathes and machining..


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## mrbugbums (Feb 22, 2021)

i've been in contact with modern tool. canada.  the sales rep quoted me between 12 and 16k for knee mills.  i didn't ask about lathes yet.   i see their website has quite a few new and used.   i think they deal with commercial items mostly.  quite expensive....


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## awake (Feb 22, 2021)

Everything I've heard about Standard Modern suggest this would be a great choice!

As for the Chinese lathes - I can only speak for my own experience, which has been surprisingly positive. Maybe I just got lucky with the one I got ...


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## Richard Hed (Feb 22, 2021)

awake said:


> Something I just stumbled across this morning - here is a video of a guy doing quite a lot of milling operations on a lathe, without a milling attachment. I don't know that I would recommend some of these - they are a wee bit scary - but I have to admire his ingenuity:



THis guy is a Rooski.  The Rooskis and Indians are INCREDIBLE when it comes to this kind of stuff.  Very ingenious.  In the '30s, 40's and 50's people in the west had to do this too but now we just buy the stuff usually.


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## mrbugbums (Feb 22, 2021)

i almost posted that same build.... amazing. so inspiring.   my parents first language is Ukrainian. i was raised by my great grandBaba who moved in with us when i was 4. why i became a RN.
so far the slaviks i've met are very hard workers.   i noticed a lot of Russian videos of machining.  Ever see that video of the russians who made a huge bolt threaded both ways clockwise and counterclockwise.   same ginormous bolt and the nut would go on either way you spun it.... it took him a few tries.  talk about a lathe video....


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## HennieL (Feb 22, 2021)

packrat said:


> awake. Specking of Standard Modern lathe {made in Canada} I think poster should look in to finding one up there {Canada} and forget that Chinese lathe all it is going to be is a headache. Watch YouTube and see how bad they are.. People spend lots of time and money trying to fix them.


I humbly beg to differ - that lathe photo I posted earlier on in this thread (the large lathe, not the little yellow one...) is a Chinese made machine, and after some two years of use I can honestly say that I'm impressed with it - especially given what I paid for it new. Yes, one of the American or British (not te even mention a German) lathe would be smoother and more accurate, but at more than 5 times what I paid for the Chinese lady...err lathe. The Grizzly G0776 13" x 40" is an exact duplicate of mine - made in the same factory, just with a better written English (and not Chinglish) manual. If I lived in North America I would most likely have bought the Chinese made Grizzly, given the positive feedback I've heard about Grizzly, but living in South Africa, a direct import from China is just so much cheaper...


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## Richard Hed (Feb 22, 2021)

HennieL said:


> I humbly beg to differ - that lathe photo I posted earlier on in this thread (the large lathe, not the little yellow one...) is a Chinese made machine, and after some two years of use I can honestly say that I'm impressed with it - especially given what I paid for it new. Yes, one of the American or British (not te even mention a German) lathe would be smoother and more accurate, but at more than 5 times what I paid for the Chinese lady...err lathe. The Grizzly G0776 13" x 40" is an exact duplicate of mine - made in the same factory, just with a better written English (and not Chinglish) manual. If I lived in North America I would most likely have bought the Chinese made Grizzly, given the positive feedback I've heard about Grizzly, but living in South Africa, a direct import from China is just so much cheaper...


Another thing is that, if you remember Japanese stuff in the '50s, it was so bad that it got the reputation of "made in Japan" which meant it was krap.  The stuff form Taiwan was the same, as a country develops ;i;t's industry, it gets better.  The Chinese stuff today has a wide range of quality but there is a lot of good stuff really cheap.  Another thing one has to be careful with Chinese stuff, if you buy direct, is their failure to offer a warrantee or if there is one, to honor it, not to speak of the problems of getting parts if they are not a well known dealer like Grizzs


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## fcheslop (Feb 22, 2021)

In reply too Richard
There has been a discussion on cut off tools and techniques on the back side of the cross slide. You cannot do this safely if you have a spindle nose that has threads. So be sure to check out what kind of spindle nose you get. My Enco was threaded which caused me a lot of trouble. I bout  
You can use a rear parting tool and the chuck dont fly off as the lathe is still running in the normal direction when the tooling is inverted
For my money the Sheerline is a cracking little machine as is the Cowells 
cheers


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## Richard Hed (Feb 22, 2021)

fcheslop said:


> In reply too Richard
> There has been a discussion on cut off tools and techniques on the back side of the cross slide. You cannot do this safely if you have a spindle nose that has threads. So be sure to check out what kind of spindle nose you get. My Enco was threaded which caused me a lot of trouble. I bout
> You can use a rear parting tool and the chuck dont fly off as the lathe is still running in the normal direction when the tooling is inverted
> For my money the Sheerline is a cracking little machine as is the Cowells
> cheers


Yes, yes, you are correct.  I forgot that.


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## oldengineguy (Feb 22, 2021)

I thought the idea of using a rear tool post  for parting off was to put the tool upside down and run the lathe in the forward direction therefore tightening the chuck onto the spindle. Because I didn't know  you need a special lathe to make left hand threads I just went ahead and made them on my old SB Heavy 10. It does not have reverse.   I just started at the headstock end and ran the carriage in reverse (toward the tailstock). Is this a machining  no no? It certainly worked for me.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 22, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> I thought the idea of using a rear tool post  for parting off was to put the tool upside down and run the lathe in the forward direction therefore tightening the chuck onto the spindle. Because I didn't know  you need a special lathe to make left hand threads I just went ahead and made them on my old SB Heavy 10. It does not have reverse.   I just started at the headstock end and ran the carriage in reverse (toward the tailstock). Is this a machining  no no? It certainly worked for me.


That is correct, the spindle continues to run forward, but the carraige threading feed is reversed.


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## L98fiero (Feb 23, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> The Chinese stuff today has a wide range of quality but there is a lot of good stuff really cheap.  Another thing one has to be careful with Chinese stuff, if you buy direct, is their failure to offer a warrantee or if there is one, to honor it, not to speak of the problems of getting parts if they are not a well known dealer like Grizzs


Yeah, but you can send it back for replacement, at your cost!


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## HennieL (Feb 23, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> In fact I think I can bet you a nice steak dinner that you will have far greater issues in sharpening the drills that have the MT3 or 4  ends to the level where you might even be able to measure any 'additional' runout.


You mean drills sharpened like this:





Probably done more accurately DIY than when bought new  (sharpened on a Tormek wet grinder)


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## Courierdog (Feb 23, 2021)

Now you are talking, I just love my tormek with the DBS-22. My dormer index bought back in the seventies cost $53 which I thought was a lot of money. Now the same set starts at $250. these bits sharpened in the Tormek are better than new. I bought this jig as I have a lot of precision drilling to do on my Acute Tool Sharpening System Kit.
Drills are an essential to any home workshop, and the means to sharpen them easily and with 4 facet is a pleasure now.
DaveC


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2021)

I don't think that the Acute System construction is necessarily as accute  as  suggested

There is a video with lots of drilling done on  a hand drilling machine -- using the spotted centred 'spots' 

already done

Bazmak made one his scrap box.  Probably  hitting centres is the easy bit because my chucks are not big enough and I've  made them to accept  larger diameters by adding soft jaws.
 Again, an alternative is not to mill but to join( ? silver solder) two diss 

Laughingly and not to be taken   on oath of a stack of Bibles,   I bought an assortment of £40 worth of  round EN1A leaded to slice on my ancient  6 x4 old metal bandsaw.

Hells Bells,  I've  got rather high precision  'takel'. Geordie for tackle and basically I'm just keeping the grey matter with challenges

Cheers

Norman


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## ajoeiam (Feb 23, 2021)

HennieL said:


> You mean drills sharpened like this:
> View attachment 123367
> 
> Probably done more accurately DIY than when bought new  (sharpened on a Tormek wet grinder)


The proof of the pudding in this case isn't in the looking its in the drilling. 

You drill 10 holes in at least a couple different kinds of materials and measure those holes using your ball gauges and vernier micrometer and then 
you will know how accurate the drills are. 
I was expected to sharpen ones this size to drill to within 0.003" by hand. 
That's as close as most drilled holes get specified so more really isn't required. 

That drill tip does look nice!


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## ajoeiam (Feb 23, 2021)

Courierdog said:


> Now you are talking, I just love my tormek with the DBS-22. My dormer index bought back in the seventies cost $53 which I thought was a lot of money. Now the same set starts at $250. these bits sharpened in the Tormek are better than new. I bought this jig as I have a lot of precision drilling to do on my Acute Tool Sharpening System Kit.
> Drills are an essential to any home workshop, and the means to sharpen them easily and with 4 facet is a pleasure now.
> DaveC


You mention a set of drills.
I have done some looking on the intersweb and haven't found such - - - - please?


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## Courierdog (Feb 23, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I don't think that the Acute System construction is necessarily as accute  as  suggested
> 
> There is a video with lots of drilling done on  a hand drilling machine -- using the spotted centred 'spots'
> 
> ...


Norman:
While it may not require a high degree of accuracy Gay suggest several stages of enlarging each and every hole. instead of just just throwing them on the drill press and drilling out the holes.
In Fact all his centre holes he chucks up the work piece in the lathe and drills out each hole using successive drill bits before running a reamer into the hold for final measurement. That seems rather precise to me.
I look at it similarly as the Tormek DBS-22. Find I have to use the magnifier to align grinding of the drill bit other wise the flutes do not end up equal.
Performing Drilling operations with a well ground and accurate drill bit is a very different experience. very little pressure is required and oddly enough the drill remains sharper longer.
see article DRILL POINT GEOMETRY , an article     by JOSEPH MAZOFF
DRILL POINT GEOMETRY
by JOSEPH MAZOFF
Mr. Joseph Mazoff, Inventor, Member of the Society of Manufacturing Engineers and President of J & A Machinery started his metal crafts career in Pennsylvania as a young apprentice of nine years old in a black smith shop in 1926. 
In 1938 at age 18, competing against more than 300 experienced competitors in their fifties and sixties, Mr. Mazoff took first place in the Pennsylvania state wide tool grinding contest, including twist drill sharpening.
The entire article is a worth while read. As it turned out this was a war production secret of the Americans, extend the ability to drill holes faster, longer with the same tool be came very significant. I had a friend whose father was a tool and die maker and during the war was sent into many places to sort out the machining processes to enable wartime production. These were dark and desperate times. Depending on the country you live in, some literally ate and slept at their machines for the duration, while this was not the case in North America, we were very spoiled. Some countries, your work was you LIFE.


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## Courierdog (Feb 23, 2021)

Look up the Dormer Precision Drill index. look up the price in the 1970's vs now.
This is why som many of us now buy direct from China. The local distributor usually gets it from his supplier in the US, all this adds to the cost of the item.
However buying direct assumes you do all the research of the product and its quality. So it becomes a two edged sword. and while they say you can return the item, good luck with that. A for instance is gauge Blocks. They all have to be referenced back to a Standard. So who makes the item is required to trace it accuracy back to a known Standard, and supply the documentation support.
Not all tooling goes this far in their quest for quality. 
For me this is just a hobby. I no longer have to certify any authenticity to a document or statement I make.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2021)

May I remind you that the person enjoying what is left at over 90 years in my bit of the firmament is---
Partially Sighted and the loss of sight from macular degeneration is---- DEGENERATION.


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## HennieL (Feb 23, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> You mention a set of drills.
> I have done some looking on the intersweb and haven't found such - - - - please?


Now this is another interesting subject - are certain brands of drills better than others, and which brand to buy...

Being a serious amateur knife maker, I am always pushing the boundary of blade performance through proper selection of steels and accurate heat treating - and then testing the steel using an accurate, lab grade Rockwell tester bought at an enormous cost (for me...) some years ago. Having a large assortment of drill bits in my "scrap box" (bought my first bit nearly 50 years ago...), I decided about a year ago to test the hardness of the various brands of bits.

Talk about apples and oranges... hardness ranged from about 20Rc on some old non-HSS bits to about 62 on one brand of locally (South African made, but also available in Europe, I believe) HSS-Co5 bits. Knowing that this particular type of steel hardens to around 66Rc before tempering, I was quite satisfied that this brand was properly tempered to avoid excess brittleness, whilst still being substantially harder than all the other brands tested. In use (drilling of (annealed) high-carbon, high-alloy, and stainless steels), these bits stay sharp more than twice as long as any other brand that I have, and I can certainly recommend them (they also cost more than many others, but I will rather pay more up front, and have much less sharpening time - time is money  after all).

I'm specifically not mentioning brand names, as I'm not sure if this would be compliant with the Forum's rules, but will gladly share with anyone that might be interested if you send me a PM. I would hope that a similar "top notch" brand would be available in the USA, but one would probably have to test some drills to confirm hardness/performance.


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## ajoeiam (Feb 24, 2021)

Courierdog said:


> Norman:
> While it may not require a high degree of accuracy Gay suggest several stages of enlarging each and every hole. instead of just just throwing them on the drill press and drilling out the holes.
> In Fact all his centre holes he chucks up the work piece in the lathe and drills out each hole using successive drill bits before running a reamer into the hold for final measurement. That seems rather precise to me.
> I look at it similarly as the Tormek DBS-22. Find I have to use the magnifier to align grinding of the drill bit other wise the flutes do not end up equal.
> ...



Hmmmmmm - - - - in my experience some of the articles in Modern Machine Shop are somewhat disguised brag pieces. 
That only this particular system is so wonderful - - - - - not going to fly. 
Even better - - - - grinding drill bits by hand - - - - - a lost skill and so very hard to do - - - - - - pure unadulterated male bovine excrement!!!
It is possible to learn to do this freehand. 
Is it easy - - - nope, but the more you practice the better you'll get. 
(That was what I was told when I was introduced to drill sharpening - - - along with "the more you hate pushing on the drill (hand drilling) the faster you'll get better at sharpening".)


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## ShopShoe (Feb 24, 2021)

I believe that you might find some very good drill bits at bargain prices, but the next time you buy the same inexpensive brand you may not get the same thing. I think one thing that premium brands have to offer more of is consistency from one sample to another. 

The other thing you may find with "cheaper" alternatives is goodness in one area and badness in another: I once found a good drill with a correctly-ground, sharp, and hard cutting end, but the shank was not round and the bit was obviously bent. I have also found cheap drills that seem good, but are stamped as a size that they are not.

I buy "premium" drills for things like making holes to be tapped, and others for seldom-needed sizes and for less critical uses. BTW, I have a penchant for organization, so I have the indexes for taps with accompanying drills: I bought the indexes, then filled them myself: I did not buy the bargain "Tap and Drill Set" as sold by some of my suppliers.

--ShopShoe


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## firefite (Feb 24, 2021)

All I can add is read, read, read!
& Safety, Safety, Safety!


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## Richard Hed (Feb 24, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> I'm currently thinking of buying the mini lathe (link below) from BusyBee tools because I have no experience and want to get started somewhere.  It's painful to think of for just another 2 grand I could get a real lathe, but on the other hand buying the small one will maybe be slightly easier and safer.  maybe easier for my wife to get involved started also,  its portable.  easy to pass on to my son and have him get started with machining also.
> Because we plan to move this summer I don't want to buy something right now that weighs a tonne just to be moved again also.
> 
> I am just a brand new beginner with no experience so any advice would be appreciated for which attachments I need to get with it to get started.  I'm guessing that nothing on the small unit is compatible transferable to the real lathe which I will buy this summer.
> ...


I would not get that little toy lathe for that price because all the standard accessories, ie., 4 jaw, face plate, etc., cost extra--enough that you could just as easily pay 1500$, get a larger lathe and with all the standard accessories.  Not only that, I consider those prices to be excessive.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 24, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> Hmmmmmm - - - - in my experience some of the articles in Modern Machine Shop are somewhat disguised brag pieces.
> That only this particular system is so wonderful - - - - - not going to fly.
> Even better - - - - grinding drill bits by hand - - - - - a lost skill and so very hard to do - - - - - - pure unadulterated male bovine excrement!!!
> It is possible to learn to do this freehand.
> ...


I agree with you.  Their older mags seem to me to have had more good stuff, that is, stuff to build which is why I get the mag.  Now there is very little, it seems to me.  I stopt buying the mag as it seemed to me to be exactly what you said, a place to brag in disguise.  This forum is a good place to brag and we can all tease each other over our bragging, or get angry, or shed tears of joy or what ever, but a magazine one can only save it for the future generations or burn it in anger for being expensive but virtually worthless.


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## packrat (Feb 24, 2021)

I looked at a copy of the " Modern Machine Shop mag" and it is way too high Tec for me, what I know about machining I learned from the old lathes
in the high school machine shop and trade school night class.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 24, 2021)

packrat said:


> I looked at a cope of the " Modern Machine Shop mag" and it is way too high Tec for me, what I know about machining I learned from the old lathes
> in the high school machine shop and trade school night class.


As far as I can tell, this mag is supposed to be for amateurs and model makers, but really, it is just a way to advertise for machines out of reach in price for most of us.


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## L98fiero (Feb 25, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> As far as I can tell, this mag is supposed to be for amateurs and model makers, but really, it is just a way to advertise for machines out of reach in price for most of us.


Not sure we are talking about the same "Modern Machine Shop mag" but the one I get as a free subscription for my business definitely isn't for amateurs and model makers unless they are into cutting edge machining equipment and processes. Even for me, being semi-retired, 99% is just interest in where the industry is headed and it surely isn't oriented toward back yard shops and amateurs.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 25, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> Not sure we are talking about the same "Modern Machine Shop mag" but the one I get as a free subscription for my business definitely isn't for amateurs and model makers unless they are into cutting edge machining equipment and processes. Even for me, being semi-retired, 99% is just interest in where the industry is headed and it surely isn't oriented toward back yard shops and amateurs.


Oh, yes, You are right, I was thimking of some other mags.


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## Howder1951 (Feb 25, 2021)

In regard to drill grinding by hand; Yes it can be learned, yes the more you do the better you get. Actually for anyone who has ground a lathe bit, it is quite similar, pay attention to relief angles and keep it symmetrical to the best of your ability and those bits will yield to your knowledge. And it is easy than going to storage and getting a new bit!


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## Tug40 (Feb 25, 2021)

I have clumsy hands, always had trouble with 3/32-1/8 bits by hand.
I finally purchased the entry level of the entry level Drill Doctor by Darex.
It’s the 350X, 118 angle only & it will not split the point. About 50 bucks.
But (after a learning curve and following the instructions exactly) it works great for me.
I have no affiliation to Darex BTW.
And I learned years ago to measure the drill bits before using, somebody (more than likely me) may have put it in the wrong drawer, it’s very quick with a dial caliper.
And ANY lathe is better than no lathe.
Standard disclaimer, my opinion. Others may differ.


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## Henry K (Feb 25, 2021)

I just looked at an article in Modern Machine Shop. It is a trade magazine -professionals sharing things they learned and are will to share with others in their professional field. Definitely not a hobby magazine. I have even sent this link the fellow professors in my university for their thoughts.









						Shifting from On-Machine to Offline Programming
					

An ohio job shop is learning to program its CNC milling machines offline. To do so, it must change its company culture.




					www.mmsonline.com
				




I consider myself both a Professional and Amateur in the machine shop field. 

Several YouTube posters are also in this boat - look at joe pieczynski - great stuff and not bragging.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 25, 2021)

Tug40 said:


> I have clumsy hands, always had trouble with 3/32-1/8 bits by hand.
> I finally purchased the entry level of the entry level Drill Doctor by Darex.
> It’s the 350X, 118 angle only & it will not split the point. About 50 bucks.
> But (after a learning curve and following the instructions exactly) it works great for me.
> ...


Yes, it's true, ANY lathe is better than no lathe.   I've been saying the same thing bout my little Enco, it's a piece of krap but compared to no lathe it's a Diamond.  I managed in January, however, to get a REAL lathe and it's really like a Diamond, cuts like butter, accurate and so on.  W/ LH threads.


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## Ron Lunsford (Feb 26, 2021)

If I may add my 2 cents on hand sharpening drill bit... I worked in a small machine job shop and was hungry for knowledge. At the time my boss would on occasion go to auctions and swap-meats looking for various items for the shop. On one of these adventures he came across a gentleman with a 3lbs coffee can full of drill bits. They were used to say the least. The next Monday when I came to work he had this mound of drills sitting on the bench next to the bench grinder. He proceeded to tell me, "so you wanted to learn how to sharpen drills by hand, well here you go". Because of the condition and the small price he paid he told me he wasn't worried about the mistakes I was bound to make. Well once I had gone through about half of the mound I found I was getting a better eye hand coordination and I was actually able to use the majority of these drills over and over again. I guess all I'm saying is, it can be done if you put in the time.

Regards
 Ron


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## clydeman (Feb 26, 2021)

I beliieve the machiniet Magazine that is being refured to is  Machinist's Workshop and The Home Shop Machinist. They are both published by Village Press,Traverse City, MI. I have been getting both for about 30 years


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## clydeman (Feb 26, 2021)

Village Press also puts out two other Magazinees magazines that maybe of interest to some of you- Digital Machinist and LiveSteam RailRoad


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## Courierdog (Feb 28, 2021)

*Ron Lunsford*
_*I remember well the things we did to new *_*apprentices, not all was **truly instructive, 
while learning to sharpen drill bits free hand can get a person by and is fast, I much prefer my Tormek DBS-22 jig. Not only is it accurate, it is quick to setup, simple to use, most of all repeatable. At my age the latter is extremely important, with age my ADHD become more pronounced, and i need the comfort and **assistance jigs and fitting provide me.
This is just me and not meant as criticism of others technique and talents and abilities*


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## kop (Feb 28, 2021)

Courierdog said:


> with age my ADHD become more pronounced


Like when you see one flute cut a bigger chip and take the bit back to the stone ?


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## Courierdog (Feb 28, 2021)

I have to use the magnifying lens on the Tormek Jig to align the drill bit.
having both facets the same does make a difference..
I have friends who just apply more pressure on the drill, ugh
I think I am spoiled now that I have learned how to sharpen my drill bits all with a 4 facet point.
I have had some of my friends accuse me of being obsessive in this regard. I just fail to understand, why I would use anything else now.


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## Courierdog (Feb 28, 2021)

To digress, If I had the time and expertise, I would like to find and obtain an older South Bend Lathe with was run from a central Overhead Shaft. The older units of the Shop Central Shaft Driven systems were a marvel of engineering. I am sure a paint to maintain and a safety hazard which snagged any wayward object. I have only seen a few working examples which were surprisingly quiet as they were aligned and optimized for a flat belt power transfer system.
Some of the examples I have seen are also well done, all the wheels, gears, pulleys, handles were highly polished for the visual impact more than increasing the accuracy I am sure. I was assured the working accuracy matched the visual appearance.


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## Courierdog (Mar 1, 2021)

For me some of the older external belt driven lathes have an astethetics value that has to be seen to be appreciated. It is not that they were better or more accurate, It is just they recall a time in our history.


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## Paul135 (Mar 2, 2021)

mrbugbums said:


> i've been in contact with modern tool. canada.  the sales rep quoted me between 12 and 16k for knee mills.  i didn't ask about lathes yet.   i see their website has quite a few new and used.   i think they deal with commercial items mostly.  quite expensive....


Stephan,

I have been thinking about your lathe choice predicament.  In the other thread where you asked for advice, members suggested the Craftex CX701.  Why not go for a lathe such as that one?  There is the excellent thread of Brian on his and you can buy it in Canada with local support.  I had a look at its spec and at 235kg it isn't too heavy to move around.  My own lathe looks very similar and I did all its mounting on the stand and moving into the workshop single handed and I am not strong.  I would suggest getting one of those engine hoists on wheels and you would be able to not just put it together where you live now but remove it from the the stand/bench and reassemble at your new place and have a very useful lifting device for the shop.  That and some steel tube/pipe for rollers or a trolley and you will be fine.  

With a vertical slide you could do some milling on it as well.  To save you time and effort I wonder if Busy Bee would fit a DRO for you.  After 2 or 3 years of non serious use on my lathe with the same 4 way toolpost now I am starting to use it more seriously I have fitted an AXA style QCTP to make changing tools easier.

Paul

Paul


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## Gordon (Mar 2, 2021)

I do not want to rain on your parade but I think that you are getting too far ahead of yourself. You have never done any of this and you may find that it is really not something you want to do. You may find that spending all day or even several days making a piece that you can hold in your hand bores you to tears. You seem to have ample funds but just because you can does not mean that you should. The ideal would be if there is someplace near you where you could take a machining class and try the various machines. At the very least try to find a smaller used machine to try to find out if this is for you. You can always sell the machine even if it is at a slight loss. As I said in your other thread I would certainly take a good look at Sherline or equivalent and buy something like a small PM Research or Stuart kit and give it a try.


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## mrbugbums (Mar 2, 2021)

Paul135 said:


> Stephan,
> 
> I have been thinking about your lathe choice predicament.  In the other thread where you asked for advice, members suggested the Craftex CX701.  Why not go for a lathe such as that one?
> 
> ...


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## mrbugbums (Mar 2, 2021)

Gordon said:


> I do not want to rain on your parade....
> No worries Gordon. thank you for your exhortation, it is received very well. and no doubt good advice for most people.   I'm quite different than most people.  There is zero doubt I will be buying a great lathe and mill to put in my workshop, learn to use them, and build many things.  I have a big list of things I want to make and throughout my life have done so many things and could have done them better and so much more if I had these machines long ago.


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## Paul135 (Mar 2, 2021)

Stephan,
Checking the 701 it looks like the digital readout referred to is the rpm display for the spindle.  Loads of Chinese made lathes have what seems to be much the same display unit in roughly the same position just above the speed knob.

Paul


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## Shopgeezer (Mar 2, 2021)

As someone who bought the wrong lathe and really bought the wrong mill when I started out, I am in the position to tell you to phone Busy Bee and order the CX 701 lathe and CX 601 mill.  I wish I could do so but just have to live with the choices I made before I knew anything. Get the power drive for the mill and DRO’s for both and you will have a dream setup for a home hobby shop. If you want to see them in action watch the Blondihacks series on You Tube. Those are the machines that she uses. If you decide that machining is not for you there will be a lineup to buy them.


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## Courierdog (Mar 2, 2021)

I fully concur with this statement in Canada the BusyBeeTool CX701 and CX601 would be a wise choice and also if possible have the DRO installed by BusyBeeTools,I do suggest the DroPro Version as it has had the least complaints of any DRO I have been reviewing.
Buy the complete recommended accessories, tooling, clamping measuring packages they have and recommend.
when first starting having a complete set of required accessory can make life so much easier and while some tools or measuring item may require replacing after a while it gives the new user a place to start and an point of reference.
Having a good long sit down with a qualified machines at BusyBeeTools will provide the best means to achieving your goals and minimize any misunderstanding as to what is delivered. Insist of a complete part breakdown with pictures / illustrations and when you store items clearly label each location on your inventory list, this become extremely important when you go looking for that part that was delivered but cannot be located now. I know this from experience.


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## gl99 (Mar 16, 2021)

Don't have personal experience with buying lathes this size, but from what I've seen, Precision Matthews seems to be pretty well received when it comes to Asian import machines. Seems to be that they've got better features and more reliable support compared to some of the other importers. Not sure what their availability in Canada is though. 

I'll second Shopgeezer's recommendation on the Blondihacks YouTube channel. In case you haven't found it yet, here's a link to her guide to buying an import lathe:


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## Linz (Mar 17, 2021)

Shopgeezer said:


> As someone who bought the wrong lathe and really bought the wrong mill when I started out, I am in the position to tell you to phone Busy Bee and order the CX 701 lathe and CX 601 mill.  I wish I could do so but just have to live with the choices I made before I knew anything. Get the power drive for the mill and DRO’s for both and you will have a dream setup for a home hobby shop. If you want to see them in action watch the Blondihacks series on You Tube. Those are the machines that she uses. If you decide that machining is not for you there will be a lineup to buy them.


Sorry, but these are NOT the machines used by Blondihacks. She uses Precision Matthews models PM-1022V lathe and PM-25MV mill which are one size smaller than the PM-1127VF-LB and PM-30MV, which are similar to the CX-701 and Cx-601 respectively. While the PM machines are built on the same platform it appears that PM attempts to incorporate changes and upgrades to improve the performance of theirs, while BusyBee does not. You (perspective buyers) can study their differences on the dealer's respective websites. Also, Ensure the dealer offers a level of service that you are happy with. I've read that PM offers good customer service, although I have no firsthand experience with them. On the other hand, my experience with BusyBee, falls short in this department.


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## jlchapman (Mar 18, 2021)

I just had a chance to test PM's customer service.  My PM-1340 which I bought in 2018 had the DRO fail.  Called PM, John had me perform a manual test to confirm the read head on the DRO scale was not working correctly.  It failed of course.  New part was ordered and received at no cost.  I thought that was great customer service.


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## Shopgeezer (Mar 18, 2021)

I think this is just badge engineering. Different colours same machine. The question is whether PM has upgraded boards and it would appear not. Blondihacks had her mill blow up and quit and had to go through the exact same process that Brian Rupnow on this forum just went through with his CX 601. She has a you tube video on the whole experience. All of these machines are made on the same assembly line in China. They are all the same machine. 

And Brian’s customer service wasn’t bad. The tech at BB assessed the problem and it was repaired. The issue is distance. Unless BB is willing to put a service centre in every major city they can’t offer local repair on their equipment. No question that BB needs to work on this with their customer service and come up with a better solution for remote customers. Ignoring phone calls is not good customer relations.


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## comstock-friend (Mar 18, 2021)

My experience with Precision Matthews was not favorable. I bought a close out power Y-axis feed for my Bridgeport ('for Bridgeport and clones'). Ad said not returnable but 'fully guaranteed'. Well first, NOT for Bridgeports, all shaft sizes and fasteners metric, and the bolt circle for the dial adapter was not correct. Then when plugged in, there was a puff and the magic smoke got out. Emails to PM to find out what 'not returnable but fully guaranteed' really meant. They had me disassemble and I found that a wire had been pinched between upper and lower die cast body parts, so obviously the unit had never been powered up after assembly. After a bit of back and forth, they allowed me to return the feed and sent another. Plugged in, this one was dead without the puff of smoke. Disassembly could find no obvious reason. After further argument, this one also returned and on the third try we got a unit that worked. By now, between the closeout price and the two returns I could have purchased one of the much better Taiwan made drives. After trying to decipher the Chinglish instructions for bevel gear backlash adjustment I ended up buying a USA Servo built unit. Pretty much not trusting any China made machines these days; tooling will be looked at with suspicion until finish/runout/etc has been evaluated.


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## lathe nut (Mar 19, 2021)

that was a lot of information there but very hard to understand, talk a little slower and keep your hand from tapping things that get quite annoying, you seem to be knowledgeable so make the learning experience fun.


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## SpringHollow (Mar 21, 2021)

comstock-friend said:


> My experience with Precision Matthews was not favorable. ... After further argument, this one also returned and on the third try we got a unit that worked. By now, between the closeout price and the two returns I could have purchased one of the much better Taiwan made drives. After trying to decipher the Chinglish instructions for bevel gear backlash adjustment I ended up buying a USA Servo built unit. Pretty much not trusting any China made machines these days; tooling will be looked at with suspicion until finish/runout/etc has been evaluated.



Depending upon how painful the "argument" was, I am actually reasonably impressed that they replaced it twice.  Many places would not have.  Especially for something sold in that manner.  I personally have no experience with the company but everyone I know who has bought from them has been happy.  One friend's chuck did not meet spec but he still felt that he got such a good deal that he was happy.

I do agree less likely to have problems with a Servo unit.  But they cost considerably more.  One can buy rebuilt ones that come with a warranty but they usually are meant as replacements and normally do not have all of the parts necessary for a new install.  After you buy the necessary installation kit, the "savings" might not be worth it.  My mill had a very old version of a drive that had a non-standard setup so I had to bite the bullet and buy a new servo with the appropriate kit.  Import plus stand alone kit was only about $150 cheaper.

Ken


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