# My Flame Gulper



## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi all,

Well, I've finally got my butt back in the workshop and started my next project. I am on leave all week so the plan was to spend 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening each day, the aim being a completed project.

After a bit of deliberation I've decided what I'm making.

Here are some of the materials:






Any ideas? This pic might give a better clue:





The wheel was an old casting I got many years ago and machined quite badly but never used it on anything. I thought I could probably put it to some use now so I set about trueing it up in the lathe.





Not quite finished, it'll need drilling and tapping for a grub screw.





That's all I got done today, I couldn't do the morning session due to other things getting in the way. I am going to do my best to make sure nothing else gets in the way as otherwise I definitely won't achieve my goal.

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

A few other members will know I've been banging on about making a flame gulper for some time now so this is going to be my attempt! It's going to be based pretty much on Jan Ridders internal valve one just with a few simplifications. I was planning to do a 3D model and draw it up on CAD but that would take some time and I have a good opportunity to get in the workshop this week, so I'm keeping most of his parameters. A few things will need to be altered to accomodate the flywheel and burner though which will save me some time.

For about the first time ever I've actually been and bought some materials for this project, they normally come from off-cuts of scrap I've collected over the years but I thought I don't have much time to mess about. 

I went to a local model engineering material supplier - I only found out this place was about 7 miles from me a couple of years ago but have never been. The materials in the first photo cost £12.50 which I thought was reasonable. 3/8" x 3" HE30 alloy, 40mm cast iron, 25mm cast iron, 2mm stainless and 10mm stainless. Just about to order my bearings from Arc Euro Trade, hopefully postal strike won't affect their delivery!

I just hope it works. I managed to make a working stirling engine but I think I'll need to pay more attention to the fits on this one.

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Build is going slowly! Everything on this engine is bigger than I am used to so the metal is taking longer to remove! Also, I keep getting interupted, we bought a new bed at the weekend, but it doesn't fit in the current place in the bedroom so I said I'd move the fitted wardrobe to another wall - I meant eventually, not before the bed is delivered! Wife and parents seemed to have other ideas and the wardrobe has now been ripped out, which means cobbling together laminate floor (where bits are missing underneath it) and the room will need repainting after - stupid bed!

I did get a bit done yesterday though so pics to follow...

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Never mind, I'm back out there after I've written this little bit up. I can't even do my write up after the workshop session since we're sleeping in the spare room where the computer is and the wife complains the typing noise keeps her up! :bang: can't win!

Anyway, yesterday I decided to make a start on the cylinder since this is probably one of the more complex parts on this engine.

I started by skimming 1 end of the lump of cast iron to give me somewhere true to grip:









Turned around in chuck and the OD rough machined down to 0.5mm oversize. All the dimensions for this are metric so am having to do a bit of conversion with the dials. I actually think I prefer metric sizes now, its just most of my stuff is imperial. Might adopt the new system! Also centre drilled and drilled straight in with ½ drill (biggest I have) to a bit longer than the required 50mm depth.





Bored the hole out to size. This took a while as I only have a crappy TC tipped boring tool which isnt very ridid. I have a big boring bar too but I don t think it fits in the tool post and is too big for this bore in any case. Finish wasnt amazing as the tipped tool has a chip out of it but not bad considering.





Decided I would finish turn the OD at this stage, back to a nice slow feed. So why am I getting such a crappy finish now when it was OK before?





Was just about to start pulling my hair out when I thought Id re-check centre height:





Only about 3/16 too high! Id used the same setup plus the bit I used for the boring bar! That could be why! Finish much better now thats corrected:





Next comes the scary bit  putting the grooves in, only its not actually scary anymore on this lathe  at least not on cast iron, brass and aluminium. I am deviating from the drawing here in 2 ways. 1. I just made the grooves the width of my parting tool (happens to be 2.15mm) and calculated how many would fit, and 2. I made them 6mm deep instead of 7mm as I went oversize on the bore by 1mm.





Parting off at about 200rpm under power.




Finished groove, worked really well. 





I was going to stop for a break ½ way through as I thought the tool would be getting red hot, but it wasnt even warm. The cylinder was luke warm so I just continued. Here it is with all grooves cut and a bit of a de-burr and polish.





Parting off leaving 0.25mm to skim off other end:






Why is it I mess about with all these tools to get a good finish and the best bloody one is the parting tool?! 





This picture shows that I only JUST drilled and bored the hole deep enough! Lucky there.





I dont normally bother lapping the bores on my little steam engine and didnt on my hot air engine, although I tried to ream that one I didnt lap or polish the piston. But on this one, I thought Id better pay more attention to the finish of the bore and pistons if I want it to work. So I chopped a bit off the brush handle and turned it down to a bit under the bore. 





Then put a saw cut down the middle and wrapped some wet & dry around it. Medium then fine then fine with oil.





Seemed to work a treat, well happy with the result. Back off into garage now to hopefully finish the cylinder. Didnt get my morning session in due to stupid bedroom!





So far I am trying to pay more attention to detail on this project, and I am using known materials. Hopefully, if I can keep this up it will turn out to be my best one yet. I just hope it will work, fingers crossed!
Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

So, I'd done what I thought was the hard bits on the cylinder so I clamped it in the vice on the milling machine and started machining the flat for the intake port. I used a brand new cutter to give me a good finish and it was going well:








			
				NickG  said:
			
		

> So far I am trying to pay more attention to detail on this project, and I am using known materials.



 :doh: :bang: 

That must have been tempting fate!

This happened:













This was caused by the vice not being tight. I'd got down to my 7mm depth 1 cutter wide and I thought instead of doing all that again it would be easier to control if I now used the side of the cutter to cut where I wanted to in the Y direction. As soon as I tried this the thing slipped and dug in. The vice felt nice and tight, the only thing I can think is it was it was at its extreme of opening so I didnt have much thread engagement and it wasnt actually tightening, just causing damage to the thread. Will have to strip the vice down to find this out. 

So the rescue mission started with taking the jaws off the vice and clamping, this time it did tighten and I was able to half-save it. The wall is a little thinner than it should be and there is still a fair of a divet out of it so am a bit gutted, but it should still function. 

All I did after this was cut the port, which actually turned out slightly bigger than the 3mm it should have been. I guess I shouldnt have used a 3mm end mill! Or maybe I could have got away with it if I hadnt drilled a hole at each end first. I will need to make sure there is enough meat on the valve to let it close fully but it should be easy to adjust.

Cutting the port.





How it looks now.





Still a bit of work to do on this - Two small flats need milling for the pillars, then drilling and tapping. Then drill the long hole drilling 4mm and turn up bronze bushes for each end.

Theres no point trying to rush this, its definitely not going to be finished by the end of the week and if I do, other errors are likely to happen! Realistically, the end of next week is now the aim but Im not going to get myself beat up about it, if it doesnt happen tough!

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Right, will post last nights progress. This was basically finishing off the cylinder, that is, milling the two flats + drilling and tapping for the pillars and drilling the long hole for the valve rod.

Setting up perpendicular to the port face to mill flats:





Flats milled  nearly took 2mm off but thought it look enough when I got to just under 1, so checked the drawing again and it was infact a 1!





Holes centre drilled:





Opening up to tapping size  changed this to 2BA which was nearest I had to 4mm:





Tapping  was thinking of doing this under power but leaving it not too tight in the collet so it would slip. Chickened out though and turned the spindle by hand! I was always taught to go 1 turn forward ½ turn back anyway.





Set up to centre drill and drill the long hole. I used the square just as a check that it was clamped correctly.





It worked really well with the 4mm drill, didnt seem to wonder off at all, its come out spot on. 





The only thing was, there was something funny happening with my milling machine when drilling that long hole. It felt like something was binding, either the spindle or gears the further down I went on the travel. Will have to look into that, I know the guy that bought the same one at our club has had trouble with his so will have to investigate.

Right off to attempt the piston / valve now I think!

Thanks to all for your interest, support and advice. :bow:

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

This instalment covers the pistons, or piston and valve. 

I started off in the same way as the cylinder and trued up the cast iron:





Turned it around in chuck and started whittling it away nearly down to size:





Now taking finishing cuts of 0.0005 and trying in cylinder:





I got so far and thought right, its time to start lapping. I just did that with some wet & dry wrapped around a bit of square tool steel.
But it still didnt fit after lapping so I took another ½ thou cut off and it slid in  DOH! It was a good surface finish so need minimal lapping and I didnt want to reduce the size any further.

Also turned the spigot:





Parted off:





Am not that confident its a good enough fit, feels a bit loose so am thinking Im probably going to have to re-make it.










Heres a video of the piston sliding down with the cylinder resting on the surface plate, trouble is, the surface plate isnt that flat so air will leak around the cylinder. If I put my thumb in the end and form a tight seal the piston stays pretty much where it is until I remove my thumb. So it might work, Ill give it a try but Ill know the first place to look if it doesnt!




I also made the valve for the back end of the cylinder. I thought with this one I wont make the same mistake twice, Ill measure the bore and aim for maybe 0.1mm over then lap the rest until it fits nicely. Only got down to 0.1mm oversize, it wasnt  it slid in again so I had to do minimal lapping to avoid making it much smaller. I have about the same fit on both pieces now.






Just need to drill the cross hole in the valve for the valve rod (slightly different design to Jans, I just incorporated it into 1 turned bit). Interestingly, Jan calls for a 2.3mm hole with 2mm rod. Wonder if this somewhat sloppy fit is just to stop things binding?

On the piston, I am going to do it the same way as my hot air engine. Mill a slot into the cast iron and cross drill right through. The pin will be a nice sliding fit in the cross-hole but a tight fit in the rod, thus will be held in the middle to prevent scoring of the cylinder walls. 

So Ill finish those off, make the little bushes, valve rod, adjuster and pillars then thats the cylinder and pistons complete. Still have the base plate, crankshaft, conrod and bearings to do. Who was I trying to kid doing this in a week?!

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Due to the bedroom obstacle and a cold starting on Sunday the only thing I've managed to do on this was 1/2 a cylinder pillar ... wasn't even worth taking a pic of. Just realised I'm taking lots of pics of straightforward turning which is pretty pointless after the first one! I am machining these from 303 or 304 stainless (can't remember which the guy said, but it is free cutting which ever that is!) It machines really nicely and leaves a superb finish.

The good news is, the bedroom should be finished by Friday and my cold should have eased off so I should be able to restart this project.

Have been thinking about what I need to do and wondered if it's worth getting a length of 6mm silver steel for the crankshaft and 3mm for the crankpin because it's usually a nice ground finish. got a couple of questions on this though

a. Will 6mm rod be a good fit in the bearings? I would have thought if size for size I'd have a job getting it through!

b. does silver steel silver solder ok or would I be best going for mild.

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi all,

I've finally found some motivation to pick this project back up. The week I had on leave was ruined by the bedroom redesign and at the end of that weekend we all caught some sort of cold but this wouldn't shift. Still got remains of it now nearly 2 weeks later which is pretty rare for me. I tried a couple of times to go into the workshop but I simply didn't have the energy. Anyway, tonight I felt full of life and enthusiasm which was good!

Tonight's job was the two cylinder pillars, I'd already made a start on one but didn't take any pics of the machining, it was straight forward turning, the critical dimension from the base to the thread shoulder. As long as it's high enough to give the flywheel clearance, they are both the same and I make the bearing blocks the corresponding height that is all that matters. Also getting the thread straight was critical.

Here's one of them.




The one thing I am doing is getting better at forward planning with the more experience I get. At one time I wouldn't have put undercuts on and chamfer on the end of thread then I'd wonder why it wouldn't screw all the way home. I tried to part this stainless off but didn't like the noises coming from it so chickened out and sawed them off, turned them around and faced to length. For the undercut I used a hacksaw as again, the thin grooving tool was having none of it. I think I'd ground it from a bit of duff HSS that I had overheated at some stage by grinding too hard as it was all blue / brown colour.

Pretty chuffed with the result, everything looks very square.









This meant I had time to turn the bushes for the valve rod. Luckily I found some bronze (I think) off some old balance scales which was almost the right size. Carefully turned it down to size and drilled it. 




My valve rod is actually 3/32" not 2mm so just got the nearest oversize number drill and it gives a nice sliding fit. 





Here they are assembled, rod was marginally tight at first but a few strokes up and down and its a lovely sliding fit now, drops through but doesnt wobble.





I may need to loctite these in as it was more of a push fit than a tight press fit.

Am very impressed the way this has gone so far. Apart from my blunder on the cylinder, its gone very well so I am just waiting for something bad to happen! The pistons may not be a good enough fit yet though but they are fairly simple to remake if need be.

Next on the list is the valve rod, drill the hole in the valve and the rod control at the other end.
Then finish the piston off, bearings, conrod, crank and base!
Still a long way to go, I dont know why I am so optimistic with timings when I start out, youd think I would know by now!

Nick


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 20, 2009)

Great set of posts Nick.
I'm enjoying this.


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## Deanofid (Nov 21, 2009)

Really good documentation, Nick. It looks like it's going very well with the exception of the bedroom problem. 
Very glad for you that the milling doink incident didn't ruin the cylinder. There's a lot of work in that!

Dean


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## rudydubya (Nov 21, 2009)

Great documentation and photos Nick. And really nice work. I'm looking forward to your next installment.

Rudy


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## NickG (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks Zee, Dean and Rudy,

They are great looking engines in your avatar's by the way guys.

Yeah, I was gutted about the cylinder slipping in the vice and was glad I could rescue it to some extent. It will probably always annoy me although it will get sutted up a bit and I guesss it shows a bit of a story and I can put it down to experience!

Ok, positive thinking over ... I'm off for a good :'( :'( :'(

Nick


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## eskimobob (Nov 21, 2009)

Looking forward to the next installment 8)


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## LADmachining (Nov 21, 2009)

The project is coming along nicely Nick! ;D

From your description of the piston fit, and the fact that it will not drop through the cylinder if the ends are sealed, sounds like it should run OK. You want as little friction as possible, but as air-tight as possible. Seems like you have hit the target spot-on!

Well done for persevering with the cylinder after the 'accident'. I would end up making another after the damaged one went on a little 'journey' to the end of the garden. :big:

Anthony


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## NickG (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks guys,

The cylinder very nearly did become embedded into the garage wall but I held back, it was probably the best bit of work I had produced until then!

Not sure on the pistons Anthony, they're a better fit than in the hot air engine I made and that worked, but still not sure whether they are good enough. Especially the valve as I'm told you can't run these things with oil or they get gummed up. With the stirling I put quite a bit of oil on the power cylinder and displacer rod to help seal. As you say though, it's a fine balance between the best seal and low friction. If I wasn't so impatient I could have got closer by spending more time lapping. We will see, at least I'll know where to look first when trouble shooting. If I can keep everything nicely alighned from now on, the pistons should be the only possible issue. Mind you, that's easier said than done!

No progress tonight, the wife is of out to watch some daft film so I better not get lost in the workshop zone incase the kids wake up or something (god forbid)!

Nick


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## Jack B (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi Nick: The only people who don't make mistakes are the ones who are not doing anything. Your project seems to be coming along nicely.
                             Jack B


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## ttrikalin (Nov 22, 2009)

Cylinder seems OK to me mate!!!
No worries. 

The little sod _will_ run or else... 

excellent post, crisp photos, nice and clear writeup. Inspiring.
I'll be following. 

tom


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## NickG (Nov 22, 2009)

Thanks Jack and Tom, much appreciated. I really hope I can get it to run, I won't give up if it doesn't as it's now a pretty recognised design so there should be no excuse for not getting a runner - talk about shooting yourself in the foot - ouch!

The only reason for the decent photos is because my wife wanted a new camera to take photos of the kids etc. We were looking at DSLR's but that looked an expensive hobby to get into so we went for a more practical top end compact thing. It's good, everything I take is just done in intelligent auto mode, when I try to mess around myself they don't come out as well. Probably because I don't know what I'm doing! 

Some of the photos people post on here though are truely amazing, hats off to those guys who produce excellent work as well as magazine quality write ups and pics.

Nick


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## Powder keg (Nov 22, 2009)

Looking great Nick!!! I built a Fire eater. It always ran great, After, It was warmed up. The trouble with them is that they barley make enough power to run themselves and any friction at all will make them problematic. I had an Idea to make a piston out of Graphite. The one I made was what I thought to be just a little too lose. But, It works better that ever. Usually it will even start on the first flick. I think the self lubing graphite was the ticket. 

Can't wait to see the rest, Wes


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## NickG (Nov 22, 2009)

Wes, that's interesting then, mine could stand a chance in that case, I really can't wait until it's ready to try the first runs ... will be pretty nervous though!

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 23, 2009)

Tonight I made the effort to get a little bit done. I am travelling down to south wales tomorrow, it's going to be a long day, up at 4:30am to get an early flight, I'll be back about 9pm and don't think I'll be up for the workshop - besides, it would actually be dangerous.

I had a look at the drawing of the striker / valve adjustment and it looked unnecessarily complex to me, so I decided to do it slightly differently and by the same method Bogstandard used on his. No machining to show as it was very straightforward lathe work.

I took a bit of hex bar, faced down to length. Drilled and tapped a 6ba thread in one end about 5mm deep, enought to break into the cross hole for the rod. Then into the milling machine to cross drill the rod hole and drill and tap the striker hole 6ba. 

Here are the parts including a long 6ba bolt (striker), lock nut and a short 6ba bolt to clamp it onto the rod:






Here it is assembled, need to make the rod next!





For those that aren't familiar with this design it's easier to just say have a look here: http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_happer_inw_schuif/inw_schuif_frameset.htm

Coming along, al-be-it a little slowly!

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Nov 23, 2009)

For my striker/valve fitting I stuck to the original design fairly closely because I was concerned about any increase in the weight of moving parts. After all the engine has barely enough power to run its self!

John


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## NickG (Nov 23, 2009)

This is true, that's the only reason I can think that Jan made that parts like that, but then I thought the extra friction from another couple of grams on that isn't going to make any difference. Also mine should gice less drag with the short bronze bushes as opposed to contact all the way through the cylinder fins (hopefully!)

I also now know that Bogstandards works with this striker so that gave me confidence to do it, if the engine doesn't run, I don't think that will be the problem, probably just my dodgy workmanship  :-\


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## modeng2000 (Nov 24, 2009)

Good luck NickG, if you don't try you'll never know.

John


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## arnoldb (Nov 24, 2009)

Good progress Nick. I'm keeping an eye on this build; I've not had the guts to try a flame licker myself yet.

Kind regards, Arnold


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## Deanofid (Nov 24, 2009)

Nice looking bits, Nick. It doesn't always have to be a major part to make an impression. These look good.

Dean


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## NickG (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks John, Arnold and Dean :bow:

Hopefully I'll get a little bit more done tonight. 

John, I'm thinking of how best to tackle the bent valve rod, did you do it as per drawing and if so did you have a special jig or just go for it in the vice with a bit of rod to get the radius?

Thanks,

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Hi Nick,
I used a piece of silver steal and heated it red hot before bending it in two stages. I tried to copy the drawing fairly closely. First a 180 deg. bend using a suitable piece of bar as a former and then by heating one leg of the bent rod, made the second 90 deg. bend with the same former. Any misalignment is easily corrected and then a quick polish and there you have it.

Remember to leave enough rod for the long leg, I ended up making two because my bend was in the wrong place along the rod. ???

John


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## NickG (Nov 26, 2009)

John,

Thanks for that. Didn't get anything done last night. Will try my best and hopefully I'll have enough to keep for a 2nd attempt!

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Nov 26, 2009)

Good luck Nick.

John


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## NickG (Nov 26, 2009)

Hi again,

I got tiny bit more done on this. I decided to bend the valve rod like John did. I can see why it was done like that, I just don't like bending things though! Anyway, I fannied on for about an hour or so with this but it produced a decent result, not quite to drawing but ok. I left the short bit longer than Jan had on his drawings and glad I did, I think it looks just right:
















I drilled the cross hole in the piston about 0.2mm oversize and the rod length was a few mm longer I think because of the hex striker block. Anyway, it's not critical, I know it's ok at the 2 extremes, the adjustment can be done with the bolt and the pinch bolt. It's a nice smooth sliding fit, hardly any friction there so looking good at the mo.

I also got the bearings hacksawed out and marked so starting on those tomorrow night.

Nick


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## Deanofid (Nov 26, 2009)

That bent rod looks good, Nick. The whole assembly looks very nice!

Doing a rod like this often gives me trouble, and I usually end up doing it more than once to get it right, especially when you have a piece that has a "good" 90 deg angle involved. Well done.

Dean


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## groundhog (Nov 26, 2009)

Nick,
Just joined and saw your post. I started on the same engine a few days ago. This will be my first engine of any type so I'm really glad to be able to follow your progress. Great pictures and descriptions. Should really help me a lot.

Mike aka groundhog


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## NickG (Nov 27, 2009)

Cheers Dean, I never get bends right, this is probably the best one I've done!

Mike,

You will see I've made a few mistakes already! Hope it can be of some help, I'm losely following the drawings but making it fit with the materials I bought / had and a flywheel I already had. I just hope it works!

I hope you will be posting your progress up too?

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Nov 28, 2009)

Nick,

Glad it worked for you, the rod looks fine.

John


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## NickG (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks John,

Got a bit more done last night, but didn't all go to plan - you'll see below! I was planning to get another bit done tonight but for some reason my 3 1/2 year old son has only just gone to bed, the wife went ages agio and left me with him! Normally he's asleep by about 19:30 and it's 22:55 now!

I wanted to get the bearing housings done, these were to be done from aluminum plate. Again, I am simplifying Jans design slightly. Mine will have no support pillars and are a simple rectangular shape to save time.

Started by marking out the outline  something I have rarely done before, even used marking blue!





I was planning to cut the flat bottomed recess for the ball races with a 12mm end mill. But then I remembered when I tried that on the hot air engine, the hole it produced was much bigger than the bearing! That was in my old mill, with old cutters though. Nevertheless I decided to do a test run on a bit of scrap:




You can see that the hole produced is quite a bit too big, a very loose fit. So I set about measuring other end mills I had to see if one was just undersize  there was one, but I tried that and it was no good  too small!
So I found a drill that was just a little undersize, 15/32 I think ~11.91mm. I ground it flat and put a couple of reliefs on it, did the test and it seemed to cut ok so I would go with this. The fit on the bearings was a press fit.





Back to the job in hand shaping the housings then:
Milling to width:





Put them together to ensure both the same width:





They ended up 0.1mm under the 30mm I decided on but it really doesnt matter! Being the same size is more critical.

Took a skim off the bottom face of both at same time  are end mills meant to be used like this? It doesnt seem give the best or flattest finish. 





Started milling the other end to length but I didnt like using the side of the cutter like this:





There was a few mm to take off so I sawed the excess off first:





Then milled both at once like this to ensure both the same length / height:





I liked this marking out lark, it was easy to see things and because the arrangement of holes Id decided on made it easy to confuse the two ends I decided to mark it out properly  ish!





I then spend a good quarter of an hour decided what was the best procedure for drilling all the holes  there were to be 2 x 6mm holes (just to make it not quite so boring), the 6.5mm hole behind the bearing to clear the 6mm crankshaft, the 12mm flat bottomed recess, and another 12mm decorative hole. 

First off I decided Id just make all the holes 6.5mm to save swapping drills. Then I decided I could have drilled half the holes by now if Id just started!





The recess  looks not too bad considering its a bodged drill!





Finishing off with radiused corners  I nearly always mess the part up doing this, it always seems to move in the vice. I should take little cuts instead of trying to plunge in 1 go. So I had to take another couple of finer cuts so it wont be quite to drawing but I came up with a method of getting them all the same using a parallel across the end of the vice jaws and flipping it over for the other edge. Im not even convinced it looks that good, it seems to have become one of my little trade marks! It just makes it a bit more pleasing on the eye  I think?!





Jus the holes to drill and tap in the bottom. Im using 2ba. Again, I just marked them out and this time centre drilled then drilled.









Finishing off the tapping in the vice once the taper tap had started the thread sufficiently:





I polished them on some wet and dry to try to get some of the nasty marks out. I hate polishing though so any I do is minimal. On the 2nd one I remembered that somebody recommended using white spirit as a cutting fluid on Aluminum  so I tried it for tapping. Worked pretty well, so I did a final quick polish with some white and wire wool! It was to clean them more than anything  theres little point in putting actual polish on it unless all the machine marks are gone now in my opinion and they arent. I have polished all the other items on the engine just with oil and wet & dry so far, gives a nice sort of engineering brushed type finish.






So, was quite happy with those, then I pressed the bearing in with the vice, but the press fit must have been too tight and it made the bearing bind up. Luckily when I got the bearing back out it sprang back to shape and is free again but I have probably done some damage to it. So I need to open up the recesses some how so the bearings are a nice sliding or push fit. I kind of knew this, I just assumed a press fit would be ok but I guess due to the small size of these it just compressed the outer ring.

I have thought of a couple of ways of doing this. Either chuck in 4 jaw in lathe and set it running true, then make a small boring tool from an old drill and bore out marginally. The trouble will be clocking it, I dont have a dti with the little probe that flicks out sideways. Could put something good fitting in the hole and clock it that way.

Another thing I thought of was making a tiny cutter with a grub screw and bit of HSS for the milling machine.
Or, I might get away with using the 12mm end mill in the lathe once clocked in 4jaw or even just hold the cutter in the vice and twist it by hand for the amount that needs to come out. Im guessing its the run out on the cutter that makes it cut larger.

Should be able to save them some how though as the holes are too small at the mo. Any other ideas?

Nick


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## mklotz (Nov 28, 2009)

Nick,

Re the raw edge you're getting when you use the side of the endmill to trim a piece...

After making the cut (in the conventional direction) that brings the piece to size, reverse your feed and, without putting any more cut on, make a climb cut over the piece. (Since you've not put any cut on, there's no chance of the mill grabbing.) The improvement in finish will astound you, especially so if your mill has power feed.


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## Deanofid (Nov 29, 2009)

Nick, I think for boring out the bearing recess, I would make a gauge pin to fit the smaller hole, then use a regular DI to dial it in with the four jaw. Then just bore it for a tight slide in fit, and use an adhesive to hold the bearing firm.

If you have a boring head, you could do something similar with the milling machine. Make a gauge pin for the smaller hole that will fit in a mill collet on one end, and use that to locate the center of the small hole by positioning the mill tables. You'll probably have to make a small cutter with the proper shank size for the boring head to fit in the bearing recess.

You might try a sanding dowel. A piece of wood dowel a bit under sized, say 3" long. Drill a hole for a small wood screw in one end, and then split that end for a couple of inches down the center line. Glue fine wet or dry to the circumference and then split it same as the dowel is split. Use the wood screw in the end to expand the dowel. It works kind of like a lap, but will cut pretty fast, so go easy. 

For the finish with the end mill, yes it is made to cut on the side, (the flutes), if they are made the same as we have in the U.S. You can do like Marv says to get a better cut. If you have a two flute cutter, it will make a better finish yet on aluminum. Run it fast for your final "no cut" pass.

It's looking good, by the way! I'm sure you'll get it fixed up for the bearings.

Dean


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## NickG (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for the tips Marv and Dean. I thought climb milling gave a better finish but got put off after I nearly mangled the cylinder! But it'll be ok with no cut on so it's just touching the work. Will have a think about which way to go. think I will try the sanding dowel then if that's no good set up in 4 jaw and bore.

Thanks

Nick


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## NickG (Nov 30, 2009)

Here is tonights instalment. Its quite hard to get motivated to get out there initially after being at work all day but once I get out there I dont want to come back in! Came in at about 11:20 tonight, got a reasonable bit done.
First I thought Id measure the 12mm end mill to see if it was actually a 12mm  it was! So I decided to put it in the vice and try opening the bearing housings by hand:






To my surprise it worked a treat  nice push fit:




I decided to put a dab of loctite on them; they will never be coming back out.
So with that bit quickly done, I was feeling quite good and made a start on the crankshaft. I decided I would do it my old way, but with more care and attention  threaded shaft, disc and pin. 

Started by facing off the stock (think this is either 32mm stainless or some sort of chromium steel I was given at work) it seems to machine quite nicely whatever it is. I then drilled and tapped 3/16 x 40 tpi. 






I didnt fancy my chances of parting off  am a bit nervous about doing steel for some reason, it starts to make squeaking noises then I get the hacksaw out! Anyway, it was sticking way to far out of the chuck for parting off. Getting it closer to the chuck would have meant another saw cut since it didn't fit through the chuck body. So this time I just skipped a step and went for the hacksaw  which is now pretty blunt! 





About 10 mins later I had this:





I was pretty happy with that straight cut and the finish was ok, so I thought Id just leave it! 

Lol, just checking youre awake, of course it would be screwed to the shaft and faced off later!

Started machining down some 10mm stainless for the shaft. 





It cuts really nicely, think its 303 or 304. The metal comes of in long spirals:




In fact on one of the cuts it was one continuous piece of swarf

Taking finishing cuts and lots of passes at the same setting. I had a bit of a flexing issue so the end furthest from the chuck was always larger  this makes it hard to test fit in the bearings. Consequently it is a marginally looser fit on the end near the chuck that I would have liked, no play but just a sliding fit rather than a push fit. I contemplated buying some 6mm bar but I think it would have needed reducing marginally to fit the bearings anyway.






I turned the shoulder for the thread and gave it an undercut with the hack saw  dodgy I know but a parting tool wouldnt work that far out from the chuck.

Then I put the 3/16 x 40 Tpi thread on. This engine is a bit mix & match on the sizes. It was originally designed in metric so for the first time I am trying to stick to that, but all my taps and dies are imperial or BA and some of my metal was imperial! Oh, and my machines, so theres been a bit of conversion going on! I used to always use imperial but I think I actually prefer metric now  if I had DROs I definitely would.






Crankdisc screwed on and loctited in place.





Facing disc down to thickness. This also gets it square to the shaft if there is any misalignment in the threads. The back face doesnt matter as long as it doesnt catch on anything but there doesnt appear to be much misalignment anyway.





Bit of a polish with some wet & dry and here is the crankshaft / disc.





Next I turned the crankpin which is 3mm. I decided to use some 1/8 silver steel for this, it didnt need to be silver steel, just about anything would do, it was just the nearest size I had. 





Turned the slightly smaller shoulder and threaded 6ba, dont think I took a photo of that.





I set the crankshaft / disc up in the milling machine to drill & tap the hole for the crank pin. To do this I just aligned the centre drill by eye to the centre pip then wound the table out 13.5mm which is the throw.





Centre drilled, then drilled and tapped 6ba. Screwed and loctited the pin in place:





Some of you will notice Ive deviated from the drawings here. Ive just got a pin sticking out rather than a special shoulder and screw that clamps together. The cylinder / bearing housings will be arranged on the baseplate such that the big end bearing is positioned in the centre of the crank pin (1.5mm space either side) but it is free to slide which should allow it to account for any out of squareness without binding. It would probably be better practice to do it the way Jan has in his drawings but this is the same method I used on my stirling engine and it seemed to work on that so Ill give it a go here. If not, I can easily make up a spacer and a screw to make it rigid.

I'm also not bothering with any balancing. I think the pin / big end is light enough and the flywheel sufficiently heavy not to make a difference on this design.

Quick test assembly:





I still need to machine the slot and hole in the piston, make the conrod, make the base plate, a base from brown stuff and now I think a burner. I was planning to use the glass burner from my chemistry set I had when I was about 10 but its a sort of bulb shape and interferes with the cylinder columns so I dont think I will be able to manoeuvre the flame into the correct position with that one. Not sure whether to solder a burner or machine one from solid alloy as I did with my stirling. This will need a lot more fuel though so think I may solder it to save time boring stuff out!

Got one eye on the finishing line but am determined not to attempt any start up until its completely finished!

Nick


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## Powder keg (Nov 30, 2009)

Looking good there Nick!!! I like how you built up your crank. I have a project coming up I'm going to do that on now. Thanks,


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## Deanofid (Nov 30, 2009)

Hi Nick;
Glad to see you got the bearing mounts fixed up without too much fuss!
You seem to get right along with things. Even after a day of work.

Dean


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## NickG (Dec 1, 2009)

Thanks Powder Keg,

I always used to use that method but a couple of years ago I realised it was a bit floored. the hard bit is getting the crank pin square - I'll be honest, I had to 'tweak' it afterwards! The problem I think is the thread size is too close to the OD of the pin, so when I screw the pin in, there is not a proper flat shoulder for it to screw up against. So a better method would be to have a crank pin with a shoulder turned from bigger stock so it has a datum to seat against. Please see sketch. Another better way is to use plain diameters, no threads and solder the bits together. I just couldn'tbe bothered messing around with solder and the cleaning up afterwards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/My%20Flame%20Gulper/untitled.jpg[/img]]
	


Dean,

Yeah I was glad about the mounts. 

Not sure whether I mentioned it anywhere but originally I planned to make this in a week! Perhaps a bit ambitious but I took a week off work to do it but other things got in the way. Up to now it's taken a month and it's not finished :-[ If I get motivated and nothing else crops up, hopefully I should finish it this weekend. People will now be thinking I might be finished by christmas!

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi all,

Made a small amount of progress tonight although it doesnt feel like Ive done much!

When I did that test run of the flywheel on the crank in its bearings I realised there were a few minor issues.
The first one was that I hadnt yet carried out a method of attaching the flywheel to anything! I cant remember why, I think I just got bored and decided to do something else! Anyway, its pretty essential so I decided just to use my usual method - drill an angled hole, tap and stick a bolt in it.
Heres the set up on the drill (the first time I have used it during this project I think!





I started the taper tap off in the drill at the same setting before moving it to the vice to finish:





That was the flywheel done  ish! On carrying out another test run I realised something else- I the 4ba bolt to hold the flywheel on stuck out too far and fouled the bearing housing. So I just chopped it off and put a slot in it to make a grub screw.
Then there was a problem with the clearances between the bearing housings & flywheel which allowed it to move around and rub on the housing. This was because I got a bit carried away when doing the flywheel  I didnt realise that the spokes actually have a slight curve from one side to the other, so because I was concentrating on getting the amount the boss sticks out on each side the same, the boss actually ended up narrower than the width of the flywheel!
Anyway, I decided to measure up and make some brass spacers to give necessary clearances and avoid rubbing.
I dont have pics of the machining but I just turned some brass to a smaller OD than the boss, drilled a hole for the crankshaft and parted off. 2 x 0.5mm thick and 1 x 2.5mm thick.





That pic was straight from the lathe, surprisingly there are no burrs, which is why I picked brass. Just gave them a rub on some wet & dry after this.
I skimmed 10 thou of each side of the flywheel outer rim to avoid any rubbing with the housings. Another test build showed that when the grub screw was tightened, it made the flywheel slightly wonky  doh! Yes I have committed a cardinal sin! So I had to find a small piece of shim to pack under the side where the grub screw isnt. That seems to have solved the problem. Being a cast flywheel the spokes arent very balanced or uniform anyway, theres not a lot I can do about that but at least the outer runs true  ish!

Another little niggly job that I had put off was milling the slot in the piston and drilling the hole for the gudgeon pin. So thought I might as well get that out of the way too.

Set up in the milling vice. First I centre drilled and drilled 3 holes, 1 in centre then the 2 extremes of the slot. I should maybe have used a slightly smaller drill than the cutter but I used a slightly larger one. 





Joining the holes up with the 3mm milling cutter:





At first I started taking tiny cuts, but then thought Id try half depth  that worked so it only took a couple of cuts. Think I could have done it full depth to be honest but I am still finding the limitations of the milling machine. Ive given it a bit of a slagging off recently, but it actually works pretty well, its just not the highest quality but I guess you cant expect that anyway. Would love a Harrison one to match the lathe!

Here is a pic of the finished slot. It worked reasonably well. If I wanted a really accurate thing I would have had to use a smaller cutter then take extra cuts to come up to size. But I knew this 3mm would give a little more than 3mm, which is what I needed on this occasion. I dont want any friction between the piston and con-rod. 





Now all that was left on the piston was to drill the hole for the gudgeon pin. For this I just clamped in the mill, lining the slot up parallel to the top of the vice jaw by eye. I also just aligned the point of the centre drill to centre and edge by eye - good enough for this since there is still scope for adjustment with this engine.





Drilling the hole gently. This cast iron cuts like butter anyway though, a joy to machine.





Test fit of the gudgeon pin material. 3/32 stainless. It is a lovely free fit but no play. The steel measured 2.36mm I used a number drill that measured 2.38 on the shank.





Cut the gudgeon pin to length and faced the ends. 1mm shorter than the dia of the piston.




The bearing surfaces will be those in the cast iron piston, it will be a tight fit through the rod so maintaining its position in the centre of the piston.

Heres a bit of a mock up on the aluminium that will be the base plate:





Unfortunately the glass burner I was planning on using wont fit to give me the right flame position so I will need to make one.
I even remembered something for scale- the coin is a 2 pence piece. (Just over an inch dia)
It will certainly be the largest engine I have ever built. Can I still call it an engine if it doesnt work?!

Im not sure what to do with the edge of the aluminium plate. For the wooden base I will chamfer with a countersink as I liked the look of that on my rocking engine but not sure how well that will work on alloy.

Maybe I could do a stepped edge? Any ideas? Dont think itll look great just square.

The finishing line is definitely in sight now:
Con rod
Base Plate
Wooden Base
Burner

Nick


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## Deanofid (Dec 2, 2009)

It looks great as an assembled unit, Nick. 
Regarding cast iron, I like machining it too, except for the mess. Sure does cut nice, though.

For the edge of the base plate, try running a ball end mill around the perimeter, about halfway through the thickness of the plate.  Pick a diameter of mill that makes a radius that looks good to you and have at it. Use a regular end mill to remove the majority of material first, then the ball.
Or, maybe just give it the same treatment as for the bearing uprights, to echo that appearance and maintain a theme. You may want to taper off the sharp edges if you go that route.

You'll think of something you like, I'm sure.

The end is in sight!

Dean


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## cobra428 (Dec 2, 2009)

Nick G,
If you have a 45 deg chamfer end mill I'd put a 45 about half or 1/3 the thickness of the base. I've seen cove (or what ever the wood guy's call it and I have the router bits for wood) kind thing done in metal. Kind of like I have on this wood base






Dean,
Cast Iron is great to cut but very abrasive to the ways and you (least I know me) come out of the shop looking like a coal miner :big:
Nick
I noticed that you where using that foreign language.....gudgeon pin and centre. Maybe you can translate....what's a spigot plate looks like a head gasket on the plans.

Tony


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## Deanofid (Dec 3, 2009)

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Dean,
> Cast Iron is great to cut but very abrasive to the ways and you (least I know me) come out of the shop looking like a coal miner :big:
> 
> Tony



Yer darn tootin' it's abrasive. I cover my ways just as if I were using sand paper or grinding gear cutter teeth. It gets everywhere, too.  Yeah, my hands look like I've been playing in the coal bin.


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## Twmaster (Dec 3, 2009)

That is coming along very nicely Nick. The finish line is in sight!


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Dean, I didn't think of echoing the bearing uprights. Might try that. Then I could give the base a stepped treatment like this:






Another thing is, how am I going to fasten it down. I could screw up into blind tapped holes from underneath so you can't see any fastners, or I quite like Hex bolts. Not sure if I have any the right size but have a small amount of hex bar I could make some from - that's more work though!

Tony, beautiful hot air engine, is it Ryder ericsson or something? When I was much younger I remember my dad helping me rout and edge the same as that on the base of my GCSE technology project! It looks good, may have to pop round and get him to dig the router out.

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

cobra428  said:
			
		

> I noticed that you where using that foreign language.....gudgeon pin and centre. Maybe you can translate....what's a spigot plate looks like a head gasket on the plans.
> 
> Tony



Tony, the gudgeon pin is the pin that holds the small end of the conrod into the piston. I think I've also heard them called wrist pin?

Where did I say spigot plate? Don't know what that is! ???


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## Twmaster (Dec 3, 2009)

Working with my father in his truck repair shop we always called that a Wrist Pin.


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Both right it seems! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudgeon_pin


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## cobra428 (Dec 3, 2009)

> Where did I say spigot plate? Don't know what that is! ???




You didn't, it's on the plans of my Whittle V8 build it looks like it goes where a head gasket
would go.
I was lookig for a translation or ....
Tony


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Ah right! Sorry!

Spigot plate, hmmm ??? Can't think what it would be but I know some cylider heads would have location dowels etc - anything to do with that?

Nick


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## cobra428 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yeah Nick,
The head hold down bolts go true it then up thru the heads....... :noidea:...I need to check the material. If it's copper then it's a head gasket

I'll get back to you after I get home from work tonight

Tony

It's a headgasket


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Tony, glad you worked that one out. Never heard it called a spigot plate before!


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Made a little more progress tonight. I thought Id better turn that awful looking bit of brass plate Ive been staring at for the last month into something  the connecting rod.

Started by finding a drill that would suit the 7mm bearing. Found one just under and did a test drill. It was ok, a sliding fit but I would loctite it. The brass was bloody hard stuff though.

Milled it square, to width and to length:





Then marked it out a bit  well I knew what it meant! Incidentally this rod is 20mm longer than the drawings to account for my larger flywheel, slightly different design too.





Back into the mill to drill the holes while its a uniform shape and more rigid.





Wasting away the sides to give the narrow section:





I then flipped it flat in the vice and milled the radii making sure I wasnt climb milling. Stupidly, I decided Id take a lick off the end but because it was only gripped by the narrow centre section the mill tried to pull it upwards. I really do some silly things sometimes! Luckily I backed off straight away and was able to clamp it back straight in the vice. There is a tiny machine mark on the end now but nothing to worry about really.





Fitted to the piston and the bearing loctited in:





Another trial mockup, nothing is bolted down here but it seems pretty good and if I bolt the bits in the right place it will be very free running so thats the first tick in the box. 





It was really the first time I got to try the pop test with the piston on the rod and something to pull on. The vacuum was more than I thought with the valve covering the port it took quite a bit of force to pull the piston out which resulted in quite a tuneful pop! So that made me a bit happier  ½ a tick in the box I reckon  dont want to count my chickens!

Base, burner and brown stuff left to do!

Nick


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## Twmaster (Dec 3, 2009)

Sweet. This is getting better every day Nick. 

Oh.. Darn. I knew I forgot to do something today... I need Dykem....


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## cobra428 (Dec 3, 2009)

NickG
VERY NICE BABY she's almost there :bow:

Twmaster 
If you lived closer, you could come over and borrow a cup of Dykem :big:

Tony


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## Deanofid (Dec 3, 2009)

Like Mike said, getting better every day. It's quite a nice looking engine, Nick!
The piston pop test is very encouraging. 

Hey, how come them pikturz is sidewards? Now I've got a crook in my neck.


Dean


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## NickG (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks guys. I just hope it runs!

Good point Dean, I will have to remember to rotate in future!

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 5, 2009)

Here is last night's installment - I'm absolutely knackered, was in there until around 2am which is a bit silly but I just got into one of those moods thinking I am not leaving until I do what I intended!

I started by sawing the base to rough length and milling the sides in the vice to give the correct width.










Unfortunately it wont fit in my vice so I had to remove the vice and clamp it on 2 blocks of wood with the edges overhanging. So I clocked it with my dti.





I milled the ends square:





I then marked it up as a precaution.





Drilled all the holes, centre drilling first.





Then I realized I didnt have any 2ba bolts, screws or anything! Pretty pissed off, I set about making some screws in a mad frenzy! Unfortunately, because I was rushing the shank size is slightly bigger than 2ba clearance size so I had to open the holes in the base up a bit.





Everything bolted up quite nicely.





But I must have made a mistake somewhere in my calculations! The piston was not coming to the end of the bore, but at the other end it was sticking out by the same amount. This meant I had either drilled the holes too close together on the base  I was annoyed and about to re-drill / slot the holes, then I thought why  I can just shorten the conrod. So I did that and it means no damage to the base. It all looks how I intended so think I must have made the con rod wrong! Actually, come to think of it, when I wound the distance in using the milling machine dials I thought, thats miles out  but put it down to the dials, I know them to be inaccurate over large distances  probably the pitch error on the lead screws. So I thought nothing of it and used my markings instead. Maybe I calculated the marking wrongly  oh well, no matter.

It spins over nice and freely so the only thing left to do was try it!




Unfortunately I couldnt get a peep out of it, I was just holding the burner in different positions whilst trying to spin the flywheel but it didnt show any signs of life. It makes a nice sucking noise and you could see it sucking the flame in and blowing it out if held in the wrong place. I need to have a proper look at flame positions, size of flame and timing of the valve now  I didnt think timing would be an issue but maybe it is. I bit dis-heartened but I will keep trying, it cant be that far away. If it still doesnt show anything Ill go for a new piston and valve.

Nick


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## Powder keg (Dec 5, 2009)

The timing on my flame eater had to be way advanced to get it to run good. Just a suggestion. Remember that this type of engine is the most challenging to get to run good. Mine was really finicky to get running until I made a graphite piston. Yours looks really good!!!Can't wait to see it run.

Wes


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## vlmarshall (Dec 5, 2009)

Well, it LOOKS great, and very interesting! I can feel flame-eater engines trying to pull me in... ;D


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## arnoldb (Dec 5, 2009)

Looks very good Nick 

Regards, Arnold


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## NickG (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

Wes, do you mean the valve closes earlier, i.e. before bottom dead centre? Was yours a conventional valve or this piston type? I still should be able to do that by altering the length of the striker.

Will give it a go, thanks.

I tried setting it up as per Jan's instructions but still no go. The characteristics are a bit different though, there is more of a whoosing sound but it now blows the flame out if given a decent push on the flywheel.

I am also using some very old methylated spirits which I've noticed leaves a sticky brown deposit quite quickly which dramatically effects friction, so I need to clean it down before I try again. Not sure where to get some better fuel.

Nick


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## Stan (Dec 6, 2009)

> But I must have made a mistake somewhere in my calculations! The piston was not coming to the end of the bore, but at the other end it was sticking out by the same amount. This meant I had either drilled the holes too close together on the base



I may have misunderstood your problem or your method of fixing it. I think the mounting holes were too far apart. When you shortened the con rod that stopped the piston from sticking out the end of the cylinder but it also means the piston is going to be even further from the head at the top of the stroke.


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## deverett (Dec 6, 2009)

NickG  said:
			
		

> ... Actually, come to think of it, when I wound the distance in using the milling machine dials I thought, that&#8217;s miles out &#8230; but put it down to the dials, I know them to be inaccurate over large distances &#8211; probably the pitch error on the lead screws. So I thought nothing of it and used my markings instead.
> Nick


Nick

I experienced a similar problem with my milling machine. However, it was not a pitch error but the resettable dials slipping with grease from the leadscrew getting where it shouldn't. Soon fixed that with a paper towel!

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## Powder keg (Dec 6, 2009)

Yes. The valve shuts about half way to bottom dead center. Mine has a slide valve and an adjustable cam.


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## NickG (Dec 7, 2009)

Stan,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. At bottom dead centre, the piston was not reaching the end of the bore, but at top dead centre it was protruding through the bore. So I shortened the rod by the corresponding amount.

Dave, I've often wondered whether it was that - will investigate. I really want some sort of DRO on it.

Wes,

I was having a think about this and although I can make the valve close earlier - it doesn't make any difference on this type of engine - this is because of the internal valve. When the valve moves enough to cover the port, fair enough, I can make that happen earlier in the cycle by making the striker longer, but all this means is the point between where the port becomes closed and where the piston reaches the end of it's stroke, the valve is moving the same amount. So the characteristics aren't changed by doing it, except the fact that you're not drawing in as much volume of hot gases.

On yours, once the valve is closed and the piston is travelling towards the end of it's stroke, you are effectively increasing the volume in the chamber creating a partical vacuum. That's what gives those engines the sort of kick back feel when you spin the flywheel. The internal valve one doesn't do that, all that is happening if you make it close earlier is it moves the pocket of air along the cylinder bore.

I made a little alteration last night and put an adjustable stop on the valve end of the valve rod. I had a sudden thought that the way I'd bent the rod, the travel of the valve could be more than necessary into the bore. I thought this would have the effect that when the underpressure was created, both the piston and the valve would get pushed towards each other by the atmosphere, which would stop it running. I still think that is right but my modification didn't seem to make any difference. The way Jan does that on his design is to have the rod bend properly, or on his first iteration he had a 90 degree soldered joint on the rod.

A little lost with this now. I know the friction is ok, the only thing I can think is the seal of my piston and valve aren't good enough. I did think they were a little sloppy when I first made them but the tests carried out seemed to work.

I'll keep going. I need to make a proper burner and base so it's more stable than holding a burner next to the port and the engine wobbling about when I'm trying to start it.

Nick


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 7, 2009)

i'm following this with real interest as i'm thinking about building one of these, not sure if its an ideal second build though!


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## NickG (Dec 7, 2009)

Jimmy,

I started in the hobby when I was 13 (29 now) making small oscillating engines and some other bits and pieces. Pretty much self taught, never had any official training just shown the controls on the lathe.

I did have a long break where I didn't do a lot, but started with serious intentions again about 3 years ago. Since then I've only made 2 oscillating engines, a hot air engine (that was quite a challenge to get working but I did it and it runs nicely), a rocking engine and now this.

All the engines have been my own designs so far. This one is based on Jan Ridders obviously, I've tried to keep the critical dimensions the same but it is definitely the most challenging thing I have made. If I get it working it could be the most rewarding too as it is going to sound quite unique and the motion should look the part.

Jan recommends this for somebody with little experience and I think I see where he's coming from but I personally think it needs more experience. A lot more attention needs to be paid to limits and fits, even than the stirling it seems. 

What was your first build Jimmy? I would recommend a stirling before this I think.

Nick


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 7, 2009)

Nick, my first build was the EZ engine, its the first thing i've ever made for pleasure. Most stuff at home is either fixing things or modifying things on my bikes, or on my little side line.

I'm a skilled engineer, served my time on capstan lathes 20 years ago. like most engineers left today, work is all CNC, the skill in my job now really comes down to setting up machines rather than producing parts.

the thing i need to learn on these engines is to stop rushing, get all my material before i even start and stop rushing!!

i still can't get over the satisfaction of making the EZ and seeing it run!


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## NickG (Dec 7, 2009)

Jimmy,

In that case I'd say go for it, I think you have the skills, by the sound of it just need to kerb your patience like me!

When I did the stirling, the satisfaction was 10 fold that of the steam or air engines I'd built due to the extra complexity and difficulty in getting it to run properly.

I have a feeling if I get this one working the satisfaction will be another 10 x I'll go through the roof!

Nick


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## putputman (Dec 7, 2009)

Nick, I have been following this thread with great interest and hoping you would come up with a quick fix. I built the same one last year and had a lot of the same problems. Spents many days trying but could not get it running.

The 1st pistons were cast iron. Could not get it to work. Made new pistons out of graphite. Still could not get it to run more than a couple stroke. Both materials had a very good fit and surface finish.

I noticed that I was getting some bounce at the end of each stroke. The piston would hit the end and bounce back just enough to partially close off the intake. It was like the piston and the linkage were so free that they could bounce. I put a light rubberband over the cylinder & the linkage to give the linkage a little drag. That stopped the bounce but did not solve the running problem.

Only once did I get it to run for about a minute and that was at a very slow rpm. Don't know to this day why it ran, but never got it to run again. It has been sitting on the shelf for the last year.
I hope you have better luck than I did. Looking forward to your solution.


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## Powder keg (Dec 7, 2009)

When this type of engine is first started. Sometimes as they start to warm up, water will condense inside and cause enough drag to stop them from running. Warming up the engine with a flame will stop this. Also, Denatured alcohol will burn clean and not soot things up. The soot will also cause drag. I like the graphite for a piston because you can run it without oil. If you run oil in your cylinder, It will burn and soot up the walls making too much drag on the piston. 

Keep at it, you'll getter running soon)


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## NickG (Dec 7, 2009)

I intend to keep trying but it seems you had the same problems Arv - doesn't bode well for me but I will have to keep going, if you got it to run once it can't be far off.

Nick


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## mklotz (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't want to start an argument but let me interject a bit from my own experience.

Senft's "Poppin", which I built a number of years ago,






calls for an oil feeder cup on the top of the cylinder. I included it and use it.
There can be a considerable amount of oil in the cylinder and the engine runs flawlessly, though I do need to preheat the cylinder to get it to start quickly.

Poppin has a very fast-acting valve operated by a cam on the crankshaft. This allows it to, after some hot gas is ingested, get the cylinder closed very rapidly so that the gas doesn't have a chance to lose much of its energy to the cylinder walls. I have to think that Senft, no dummy he, chose that design because he understood the problem of rapid gas quenching that arises in these models. I have an unproven suspicion that many of the problems with these engines have to do with early gas quenching and not friction. This is somewhat substantiated by the sensitivity to flame placement.


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## Powder keg (Dec 7, 2009)

Would that be why the timing has to be advanced so far? Because of the quenching? It kind of makes sense to me.

Wes


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## MikeR C (Dec 7, 2009)

I too built a "poppin". A couple of observations.
Timing was somewhat critical but as it sits it will run in either direction.
If the fuel (flame) shows any yellow it will crud up and quit, now I use 95% ethanol (drinking kind). I tried a butane lighter but after a couple seconds it stopped and would not run till the cylinder and piston cleaned.
The flame position and distance from the intake port is critical, very critical, and the slightest air movement will stop the engine. Occasionally mine blows out the flame as well.
I have an oiler, and I use mobile synthetic motor oil (I think 0w-30w), I was worried that it would be too thick but it warms up and gets "thinner". Once the engine is running I open the oiler and you can hear it speed up.
When starting I rock it back and forth so it sucks in the flame to warm the cylinder, at some point it will begin to oscillate on it's own, then flipping over the flywheel will get it running.
My cylinder and piston are CI, although if I was going to make another vacuum engine I would use graphite. I am very interested in your trials as I have the Ridders plans and was considering building one. Please keep us up to date on the steps needed to get yours running!
Thx
MikeR C


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## NickG (Dec 7, 2009)

Marv,

Funnily enough before I saw your post tonight I went out and tried some 3 in 1 oil on it! I know a lot of people advise against oil but the same happened on my stirling and that was one of the things that it required to run, and plenty of it.

Unfortunately still no signs of life but I don't think the oil increased the friction or drag in the system, if anything I do think it helped a bit and helped seal it better, it was blowing the flame out a lot when I was trying to start it.

On the timing I think you're right. I think the design of this internal valve version is marginal because one can't adjust the timing of the valve closing as well as with a cam actuated valve. Well I can get it to close earlier by making the striker longer but, I think the 'phenomonen' that occurs when the valve closes before BDC in your type of engine and the piston is still travelling down bore helps when it get's onto the back stroke - using some of the stored energy in the flywheel to create a partial vacuum then it gives it a helping hand once over BDC?

Mike, thanks for your input too. Before I tried the 3 in 1 I was thinking 0w30 would be about the best as that is about the thinnest available and it's obviously capable of withstanding high temperatures. 


Next job is to make the burner so I'm not holding it as everybody has said it is very critical, it won't help with me moving it around - especially it seems now on this internal valve type. I will need to make it in such a way that it is easy to adjust the position and size of the flame.

Thanks again for the advice and support.

Nick


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## mklotz (Dec 7, 2009)

Another thing that concerns me in your design is the mass of the valve piston. Unless it's hot and stays hot, it will act to quench the hot gas. (Poppin uses a bit of feeler stock as the valve so its mass is miniscule.)

When you preheat the cylinder, do you preheat the valve piston as well? If not, give that a try. I may be daft here but it won't cost anything but a bit of time to try.


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## rake60 (Dec 7, 2009)

I have two builds of that engine here Nick and have never been able
to bring either of them to life. This thread is certainly giving me new
ideas to try. 

Thanks for the play by play updates!

Rick


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## deverett (Dec 7, 2009)

Regarding light oil for lubrication, has anyone tried Marvel Mystery Oil (or Redex in UK) or is that not a lubricant?

I have no opinion on its use, just asking in case I decide to take the plunge one day on this type of engine.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## putputman (Dec 7, 2009)

These are my two flame eaters. The "poppin" style has a graphite piston in it. It runs very well & the speed can be controlled by position of the flame. 
The timing is set so it run clockwise. You can't even spin it in a counter clockwise as the valve would be in a closed position.

The Jan Ridder design engine also has graphite pistons. The way it is valved it will run in either direction. (if & when it runs)


I went up to the shop today to photograph the engines and I thought I would give the Ridder engine another try. (haven't tried it for the last year) 
I warmed it up for just a couple minutes, spun the flywheel and it run for a short time. I took a video and you can see just about the total run. I tried for another half hour and couldn't get it to run again. Just like the last time it ran. ??? ??? ???

I did notice the flame is very orange. It is denatured alcohol so I thought it would be a clearer flame.




Not sure what the next move will be. Maybe Nick or Rick will come up with something.


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## MikeR C (Dec 7, 2009)

Steamdave, the oil in the lubricator in the pic I posted is Marvel Mystery oil. I switched because Marvel is made to burn and I wanted to avoid that.

NickG,
Please do not take this the wrong way, but, did you look at jan's trouble shooting guide? He seems to be very picky about flame placement as well...

http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_happer_inw_schuif/inw_schuif_frameset.htm


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## NickG (Dec 8, 2009)

Marv,

Another good point. I have tried heating it also, but you might be right. Jan's design is hollowed out I think. think his piston is as well. If I find I have to go the route of making a new piston and valve, I will hollow them out to reduce any heat sink effects. Do you think the gases are quenching before the valve is closed?

Mike, yes I have followed the trouble shooting guide - all seemed ok.

Putputman, thanks for the video, I can't view it on this computer but will do later.

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Dec 8, 2009)

Yes Nick, both the piston and valve are hollowed out.

Don't get too downhearted, I can't get my version to run reliably now. It did when first fired up but it is behaving just like all the others now.

John


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## NickG (Dec 8, 2009)

Putputman,

Just saw the video - well done because it was running beautifully for a while but can't think why it stopped unless the flame is being blown around too much, or friction changed as it got hotter. The cooling should be sufficient because there are 1 or 2 out there that keep running. Very strange - I was even getting frustrated with yours then :big: You've done amuch better job than me that's for sure as mine doesn't even try!

Nick


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## putputman (Dec 8, 2009)

After reading MikeR C's post I downloaded Jan Ridder's trouble shooting guide. That wasn't available when I built mine a year ago or so.

When I get some time I will follow his procedure to see if engine meets his standards for fit & finish.

I got to say that Jan Ridder is some kind of a master when it come to understanding & building engines. I think if we all follow his instructions we can get them all running.


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## NickG (Dec 9, 2009)

Mine passes all that criteria but still no joy. :-\ I am going to do the base and make some sort of burner that has an easily adjustable height & position then keep trying.

Nick


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## modeng2000 (Dec 9, 2009)

I am beginning to think that mine will end up as an ornament!

John


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 9, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I don't want to start an argument but let me interject a bit from my own experience.
> 
> Senft's "Poppin", which I built a number of years ago,
> 
> ...


is that an ally barrel? i


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## mklotz (Dec 9, 2009)

If "barrel" means cylinder, then, yes, it is aluminum.


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## putputman (Dec 9, 2009)

A RAY OF HOPE

I went up to the shop again today, for something not connected with engines, & saw the Ridder flame sucker setting on the workbench. Just for "sh.ts & giggles" I thought why not try it again. 

Before I put a flame to it today, I spun the flywheel over, and the engine made a popping noise similar to the "poppin engine". I don't recall it ever sounding like that before. It is possible that the run yesterday left a film on the graphite piston or in the cylinder that tightened any gap between the piston & cylinder. Just a guess.

To give the burner a little more flame I pulled out more wick, lit it and let it set next to the cylinder for a couple minutes to warm it up. It had a larger flame than yesterday. After giving the flywheel a spin a couple time and adjusting the position of the flame, the engine came to life. It started running fairly slow and then picked up speed. It got fast enough so that the valve & piston would bounce once in awhile and throw the timing off and slow down a little. Acted just like a governor. After about a minute of running like that it settled down to a nice even rpm and ran that way for about 4-5 minutes. I stopped it and spun it in the other direction and it ran for another 2 minutes and started to slow down & finally stopped by itself. By this time, the cylinder was so hot I couldn't hold my hand to it. There must be a optimum temperature for this to run.

I wish I could tell you what the secret is to get these engines running, but I honestly don't know why this things runs sometimes and not other times. I hope my experience will give the rest of you enough determination to stick with until you get them all running.

I will try again tomorrow to see what kind of mood it is in.


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## cobra428 (Dec 9, 2009)

putputman,
Congrats, I heard those flame eaters where a bear to get going. Looks like your on to something!

Tony


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 10, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> If "barrel" means cylinder, then, yes, it is aluminum.


thanks
i'm toying with the idea of aluminum cylinder and piston on a flame gulper ??? ???


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## NickG (Dec 10, 2009)

Putputman,

Many thanks for trying and posting your progress. This is helping with troubleshooting greatly. Well done on getting yours running. I think you might have hit the nail on the head, the seal between the piston and cylinder. I doubted my fit between these components when I first made it but thought i'd give it a try. it's obviously a fine balance between getting a near perfect seal and low enough friction. The only thing is, I've tried it with oil which should make it seal, and it didn't seem to increase friction although I know some people swear blind oil prevents them from running (including the designer) but I've seen oil used with them before and Marv states that he uses oil, infact as he says, the poppin design incorporates an oil cup!

glad you've got yours working though, gives me a glimmer of hope!

Nick


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## mklotz (Dec 10, 2009)

Jimmy0  said:
			
		

> i'm toying with the idea of aluminum cylinder and piston on a flame gulper ??? ???



Al on al will lead to galling. Not a good choice. Use dissimilar metals.


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## NickG (Dec 10, 2009)

Jimmy, I can't understand why you're so keen on using aluminium? Why not just use materials that are tried and tested?

Nick


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 10, 2009)

i've got some plans now, i will be using the materials in them. 
just got to decide on which set of plans to follow. 

i think the desire to use aluminium is because i've got a pile of it in the shed!


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## MikeR C (Dec 10, 2009)

Aluminum would be a good choice for the cylinder, especially for an air cooled version, IF you sleeve it with something else. My Poppin has a cast iron cylinder and it only runs for a while before it over heats. If you use aluminum for a piston and it was sized to fit the bore when hot, I think it would be small enough when cold that it wouldn't start. Although preheating the cylinder would be an option. I have a pile of graphite and my next flame eater is going to have a cast iron or stainless cylinder (liner) and graphite piston.

MikeR C


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## MikeR C (Dec 11, 2009)

NickG
Is there an update on you engine? I'm curious what you have tried....


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## Deanofid (Dec 11, 2009)

Me too, Nick. Hope you can get the bugs worked out!

Dean


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## NickG (Dec 15, 2009)

Hi all,

Thanks for the kinds words and encouragement.

I know this has gone a bit quiet but I havent given up on it! If Im honest, I am a bit disappointed that it didnt run and I couldnt even detect it trying to run. It passes I think the tests on Jan Ridders problem solving page. If anything Ive done is a bit marginal, I think it was the cylinder and piston tolerances.

I havent done nothing on it, I spent a few nights messing around trying to get it to run but nothing. Then I thought, just finish the thing off and then try to troubleshoot. So I started by finishing the aluminium base off. 





I sanded it with the bosch mouse sander then got a stick with some wet & dry and rubbed it back and forth a bit. Then I did the same with some white spirit which gives a sort of matt sheen to it. I could really go to town polishing it but it takes ages to get the machining marks out completely so thisll do for me. I havent put polish anywhere near it, just a quick rub with some wet & dry and oil seems to give a nice finish in my opinion. I decided not to put an edge around it as Id probably spoil it if I didnt take care in clocking it square on the milling table.

After this, I could then make the base from some brown stuff. This needed little counter bores for the screws underneath the alloy base. I was wondering which way to go to fasten it down. At first I thought, could make some nice hex bolts and bolt from top. Then I thought I could keep them hidden like the rest of the engine, but then I found some 0 BA screws with nuts so decided to drill through the lot and leave the nuts on top as a sort of feature. This meant giving my nuts a bit of a polish so to speak!




Again, this was sanded with the mouse and oiled with teak oil. I did put an edge around this with a countersink in the milling machine. It worked ok but it was a mess on getting it clocked straight.

Then I decided to re-do the crank pin. As discussed before with Bogs, its better to retain the big end with a set clearance to stop it wondering. So I made this from stainless:




Along with a little bronze spacer. This is the first time Ive ever knurled anything since uni. The set of knurls I have are sort of sprung and you turn a screw which makes them closer together (need a pic!). I didnt really know how much to tighten it so I went easy, but then of course you cant go back and do it again incase it goes in a different place and mashes it up so the knurl isnt very deep! I should have pointed out that is a 2p coin! Don't know why I put it that way around!

I then assembled the engine together. Here are some pics, looking much better on its real base! 

















Hope it doesnt stay in here for the rest of its life! :





The base was needed as it was wobbling about when trying to flick the flywheel over. Now its very stable so it will give me a better chance when I try to get it to run in anger!

Almost forgot to mention that I re-lapped the bore and made a better fitting piston and valve. How much better remains to be seen though! I also took the opportunity to extend the spigot on the piston slightly as I noticed my port wasnt opening quite fully  not sure why, I must have calculated something wrong.

All I need to do now is the burner, then I am hoping my little tweaks and improvements are enough to get some life out of the thing. If not, Im a touch puzzled. The only real thing I can think of is that I may have to revisit the cylinder and pistons again. I have a sneaky feeling that when I lapped it, it may have taken a bit of parallelism & circularity out of the bore. I think I have some adjustable reamers which may correct that, then make new piston and valve again. 
There are another couple of suggestions with regards to the mass of my piston and valve as they arent hollowed out and the only other things that are different are the flywheel and con rod length. If anything the conrod length should improve things though and the flywheel should be ok, it should be better and dont think its any heavier. If things such as the mass of the piston affect its running, it is, as I thought a marginal design.

Here is a little video flicking it over by hand, sorry about the lighting!




So, hopefully will get started on the burner tomorrow, and by the weekend, fingers crossed Ill have some good news. But Im not holding my breath, could be back to the drawing board I think!

Nick


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## Deanofid (Dec 15, 2009)

It certainly does look nice, Nick. Keep at it until you get it to talk back to you. Tweak it to within an inch of its' life!


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## putputman (Dec 15, 2009)

Nick, I noticed that when I finally got mine running I was spinning it over much slower than I used to. When you spin it real fast the pistons seem to bounce and that throws off the timing. Just a thought but might be worth a try when you get your burner done.


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## MikeR C (Dec 15, 2009)

Lookin' good! Thank you for the update, I'm anxious to hear more once the burner is finshed...


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## NickG (Dec 15, 2009)

Dean, Arv and Mike,

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. 

Good point Arv, when I was messing with the timings the fist time I was trying to get it to run I noticed that at one point if I span it too fast it nearly locked up, it managed somehow to get into a position where the valve had closed but the piston still had a long way to travel so it was trying to suck but the port was closed, which stopped the thing dead! So I will bear that in mind when I try again.

I don't have a design for the burner, it's sort of going to be done off the cuff to suit the engine. I am thinking of a way of providing some height adjustment, by a screw and locking nut or something. I expect that to take a couple of nights.

Don't worry I'm not about to throw the towel in yet but it is frustrating!

Nick


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## cobra428 (Dec 16, 2009)

NickG,
Hang in there. It took me 3 weeks of nights and weekends to get one of my Stirings running. 

Perseverance is key Thm:

Tony


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## NickG (Dec 21, 2009)

Made more progress last night and finished the burner for the engine, which completes the last piece of the engine  but unfortunately not the last piece of the puzzle ( More on that in a bit though!

Heres how I did the burner:
I had a bit of copper tube in mind, only slight annoyance is it had some sort of plating on it. Turned up a nylon bung to fit the tube as I quickly realised I was just going to crush it in the chuck.





Faced off to length:





I have about a foot of 1 ¼ ish cast gunmetal, have no idea where it came from but I decided to use that for top and bottom:
Facing and putting register on: 





Parting off:





Good fit:





Ready for soft soldering, I just used some electrical solder and some of that soft solder paste stuff which acts as a good flux:






After a little cleaning up:





Facing off due to parting pip:





Here it is with the bottom soldered in place and a bit of polishing. I havent fully got the plating off but itll do!





Turning the top was pretty much the same as the bottom; just put this pic in to show the weird difference in surface finish part way across the cut. Must be something to do with the way its been cast.





I drilled an air hole then a hole angled at 22.5 degrees. I was worried I wouldnt get close enough to the cylinder with the wick if not. I then turned a stainless steel bush and loctited it in before a bit more polishing. The fit of the cap is a tiny bit tight really, well, its just theres not much to grip to get it off! A pain when its ½ full as you tend to spill meths! I was originally planning on putting a little knurled knob on it but couldnt be bothered!





Pic of it on engine base:





I tried to run it again tonight unsuccessfully. I did find out a few things though. On mine, it seems some sort of lubrication is going to be essential. Without it, the meths Im using puts a nasty deposit on it pretty quickly, jamming it up. But with oil present, it doesnt build up.

Im not sure why it wont run but have been in contact with Jan ridders who is going to do some experiments on valve timing and let me know the outcome. I just cant get much out of it at all. The most promising results were when I slackened the rear collar off  this means that when the valve shuts, the suction pulls it further into the cylinder. I then almost get a sort of power stroke if the flywheel has enough momentum to carry it over  however, at that point the valve gets a bit tight in the bore so I clearly have clearance issues. If I take a little off it to avoid it being tight, itll probably not be sufficiently air tight. I think I may need to ream the cylinder bore out and make new piston and valve.
Also, at the same time, because the valve got stuck, me spinning the flywheel loosened it on the crankshaft and because Ive stupidly put the grub screw somewhere I cant get at, Itll have to come to bits to tighten back on. In doing this though, I found another possible issue. When the flywheel was loose, I moved the conrod manually with the flame present and if I quickly put it past bdc, I felt a definite power stroke trying to pull it back. So Im thinking of trying an experimental aluminium flywheel as I fear my big dia. Cast iron jobbie might have too high moment of inertia. 

Another thing I noticed whilst studying the pictures, tips etc on Jans site was that his wick is about 2 x the diameter of mine. So maybe the width of flame needs to be much bigger. Not sure if I have scope in my burner to go quite that big so would need to re-make the lid.
Sorry if all that is difficult to understand. I find myself rambling when things arent going to plan! When I looked at the design of the engine, I didnt think there were many variables as they were inherent in the design  how wrong was I! Still, hopefully Ill get there one day.

Disappointing but lots of things to try. I just need to do them in a logical order.

Nick


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## Deanofid (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm glad you're still pecking away at it, Nick! These kind of things can drive a guy batty, but don't give up.

Dean


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## Powder keg (Dec 22, 2009)

Keep after it Nick!!! It's probably something simple)


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## jimmyocharlie (Dec 22, 2009)

i really do hope it runs soon


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## NickG (Dec 22, 2009)

Thanks guys. I'll probably only get a couple of hours before xmas so not sure what to actually do with that time. Hopefully I can get a few nights in the workshop and try a few things over the xmas break.

Nick


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## Irraspain (Dec 27, 2009)

Hi NickG and all people here. I,m from Madrid,Spain, and like this post a lot!!
First of all,sorry for my poor english...
I´m mechanic and i work with hydraulics and pneumatics cylinders,and viewing
your pics i realize that probably the problem is a loos-compression into cylinder
by the high tolerances of the piston... Cylinder,piston,and valve should be polished
with minimal tolerances... that requires micrometric precission to efficient fit.
But i think you can try to mount graphite-coated metal segments (or other materials 
you can find with heat resistance) on piston and valve to fit them in the cylinder.
I hope this may help you to run your wonderful engine!
I can post a pic of piston with segments y you want.
 Best regards and happy christmas!


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## NickG (Dec 28, 2009)

Hi Irraspain,

Thanks for your interest and comments. Yesterday I nearly finished a new light weight flywheel to see if the moment of inertia was too high on the cast iron one. I will try that tonight but if there is no difference I also put it down to the fit between piston, valve and cylinder. Therefore I am going to ream the bore out with an adjustable reamer this time before polishing to ensure it is round and parallel. The only problem is, I'll need to go and buy some more cast iron for the piston and valve as I don't want to change the material and introduce another variable at this stage. I'll probably also take the opportunity to make the piston and valve as per the drawing, i.e. hollowed out, although I can't see this making any difference, the extra mass could be affecting this 'quenching' phenomonen that Marv has spoken about.

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 28, 2009)

Hello, hope everybody had a nice Christmas and are looking forward to the new year.

I finished the lighter flywheel tonight, tried the engine again and am afraid to say the next remedial action I take will be the last resort!  

The flywheel didn't seem to make any noticable difference. At a certain setting I think, although it's extremely difficult to tell, that there is some tiny sign of life. However, I am puzzled as to why it is so small, so it might be psycological! This only happens if I put plenty of oil on the piston and valve, which is understandable as they will make a better seal with oil, but I would have thought with this seal and very little friction I would at least be able to clearly see the engine trying to turn over or give a power stroke. If I set the valve up so its travel into the cylinder is not limited - i.e. it get's pulled further in causing more overlap with the port, I think I get some sort of power stroke but then the valve sticks - surely this can't be the right way to set it up though as some of the power stroke will be wasted pulling the valve in at the same time as the piston. 

Anyway, the only thing left to try really is reaming out the cylinder with an adjustable reamer (luckily I have found one the right size range) to make sure it is perfectly round and parallel - it isn't at the moment which is why the valve sticks. Then I will have to make a new piston and valve so will need to go and buy some more cast iron. I will also take the opportunity to make these components to the drawing this time, i.e. hollowed out incase this 'quenching' phenomonen people have talked about has any effect.

If those things don't work, along with a larger burner wick, I will just have to put it down to the fact my machining isn't quite up to the job yet! At which point, after having a good cry, I will start collecting materials together for 'poppin'. I get the impression this might be a tiny bit more forgiving but I still think it'll be a challenge - hopefully if nothing else I'll be able to learn a few lessons from my first flame gulper experience!


Here is a pic of the engine with experimental flywheel:






Not pretty but gave me a chance to try out some of my christmas pressies:






Not shown in there was a set of carbide tipped lathe tools and a set of metric taps & dies. The idea with the carbide tools being that it will save me a lot of time setting tool heights, if they are all the same height I can make 1 piece of packing the correct height.

Unfortunately I didn't do my homework very well and the 8mm shank ones are a bit small for my lathe really. Still seem to work really well, I only tried what I assume is a roughing tool on the aluminium flywheel and it gave a cracking finish as long as I kept cleaning the build up off it and had the speed higher than usual.

Also tried a 4mm tap and die from the axminster set which worked well except the T type tap wrench which didn't seem to grip very well - I think the tap was just too big for it.

The keyless drill chuck from RDG looks amazing quality for the price but they have sent a MT with a tang on it and it won't fit in my milling machine, too long I think so can't try it yet.

Other things include a de-burring tool which works nicely for holes. A small metric tap and dies set, slide way oil and cutting oil, a tailstock die holder and a wiggler set, which if anybody knows how to use, please tell me!

Nick


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## Deanofid (Dec 28, 2009)

Somebody loves you, Nick. Nice Christmas gifts for a machinist type of person!

I really hope you can find the trouble with your engine. I don't have any suggestions, but am keeping crossed fingers and good thoughts for your success. (big help, huh?)

I know how to use a wiggler set, but it takes a lot of explaining without pictures. If no one else pipes up with some, I'll do up a set in a few days. They're relatively easy to use, but rely on touch and judgment for some types of setups. A handy tool, in my book.

Sometimes, the makers of those drill chuck arbors leave the tang in a soft state and they can be cut off. If you need to use it with a drawbar, though, you may not have much luck drilling and tapping the end of it.

What's Hexol? I figure Millway is way oil, but the other stuff?

Dean


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## NickG (Dec 29, 2009)

Dean,

People always say they never know what to get for me so, sounds a bit harsh, but I have started doing a list again - just like when I was a boy! Only now it's on a spreadsheet that gets e-mailed out with links to suppliers etc! It takes a bit of the excitement out of opening presents but also takes some potential disappointment out :big: Only joking really, it's the thought that counts but I think people would rather know their money is going on something useful!

Thanks Dean, no rush, I will have a look on the net for the wiggler stuff too.

Well it says fully hardened but I did a light rub with a needle file last night and it cut! So might be able to saw it off, I'd prob get away without the drawbar but not ideal. I can't really think of a way of gripping it to drill and tap, unless I turned a spigot in the lathe and gripped the chuck onto that but sounds a bit dodgy!

The Hexol is water soluble cutting oil, for when / if I ever get my suds pump sorted! Thought I'd be able to brush it on neat for now? I've not used any cutting oil in any projects thus far.

Nick


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## winklmj (Dec 29, 2009)

NickG  said:
			
		

> ...and a wiggler set, which if anybody knows how to use, please tell me!
> 
> Nick



http://www.littlemachineshop.com/video/WigglerKit30fps.wmv


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 29, 2009)

Steve (Cedge) has a nice video...see if this helps...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2656.0


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## NickG (Dec 29, 2009)

Cheers guys, and Steve.

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 30, 2009)

I had a decent night in the workshop last night. I reamed the cylinder with that adjustable reamer and plenty of oil. The bore is now very round and parallel compared to before. I am not going to bother lapping at this stage as I think the finish is smooth enough. I also turned an aluminium valve - this may be no good, it was more of an exercise to find out what a good fit is. I turned one to a few hundreths of a mm below the bore size and it is a much superior fit than before. Slides freely yet seems very air tight without oil. I will probably give it a try, until I can get some more cast iron. I just need to do the piston to the same standard now. Not sure whether to try aluminium again to keep weight down or gunmetal which would probably be better for the application. It's just the differential expansion that I'm worried about - it could bind up when the bits get hot. I can only try, if it doesn't work after this I'm at a definite loss - the fit is definitely good enough now, and it is the same at any position now.

Nick

ps I had a reply from a French chap that had made one and showed it on youtube. He was quite helpful with timing figures and directed me to a french forum - this was the first bit I clicked on:

http://www.blooo.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2403&p=1

Nice finish on that one!


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## cfellows (Dec 30, 2009)

Nick,

These little flame lickers can be really exasperating. I've built several and only ever got one to work. And, it's not 100% reliable. 

Some of the French and German hobbiests seem to have it pretty well nailed. The one in your link is a beauty.

Chuck


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## NickG (Dec 31, 2009)

Chuck, it was poppin the one that you got to work wasn't it? It seems a pretty well sorted design. Just had a look on your youtube page and it seems to run beautifully! They seem a bit tempremental to say the least. I just hope my flame licker escapades don't put me off!

Nick


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## NickG (Dec 31, 2009)

Hi all,

Got more done in workshop last night - got the valve finished and the piston made, both from aluminium this time. All was going very well until I used my new tail stock die holder to thread the bit that goes inside the piston for the wrist / gudgeon pin and it snapped! I think Id done the undercut too deep, so I did it again without an undercut! Luckily it didnt take long the 2nd time as everything was set up. It took me ages to get the vice clocked back square on the milling machine etc.







The piston is pretty much to Jans original design now, just the wrong material!





Anyway, the piston and valve both had a very nice fit. Excellent seal whilst hardly any friction.
It was 00:50 hrs by the time I finished that so I thought Id leave test run for today. Just tried it and there was good and bad news!

Here is the good news:




This is actually quite a bit more free running than before and with a better fit, that can only be a good thing.

However, when I pre warmed the cylinder to get rid of any condensate first, my worst fears came into being! I half expected this to happen!




The engine had seized completely due to the aluminium expanding faster than the cast iron!

So at least this exercise tells us something we thought anyway - its not easy to use aluminium pistons with cast iron where heat is involved! It may be possible with the correct clearances though  not sure how to calculate this and have no desire to. Ill have to wait for some cast iron now.

Promising though, If I can achieve the same fit with the cast iron there SHOULD be nothing stopping it from running!

Here is a pile of scrap  there were a couple of other components that got shot straight in the bin in anger  at least the experimental flywheel can be saved for future projects!





Nick


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## Deanofid (Dec 31, 2009)

NickG  said:
			
		

> Dean,
> 
> People always say they never know what to get for me so, sounds a bit harsh, but I have started doing a list again - just like when I was a boy! Only now it's on a spreadsheet that gets e-mailed out with links to suppliers etc!
> 
> Thanks Dean, no rush, I will have a look on the net for the wiggler stuff too.



Doesn't sound harsh, Nick. It's sensible. I love Christmas, but like it most because I'm a Christian, and enjoy that celebratory aspect of it very much. 
Still, our family is in the habit of gift giving, and it's a fun thing, too. I tell everyone else but my mother just to get me socks, and have them convinced not to get me anything else. Socks always fit! Mom won't have it though, so she asks me every year what I really want. I almost always tell her something machinist related, and she has no idea what it is, but says "Go order it". Then when it comes in, I take it over to her house, she wraps it, and I unwrap it on Christmas. She did the same for my dad when he was living. He was into RC planes and making stained glass. She just told him to go order it, then made him give it to her for wrapping when it showed up on the parcel truck. 
It's a good system!

Looks like you got good links to wiggler use, so I won't do any redundant pictures.

You know, I'm really rootin' for you on this flamer. It deserves to run, and you deserve to have a runner! It's a neat looking engine, and we all want to hear it popping along. Really glad you're still kicking at it to bring it to life.

Carry on, Nick!

Dean


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## NickG (Jan 1, 2010)

Dean,

Yeah good idea with the gifts - I'm sure we will always do it. Socks are always on my list, I can't actually remember ever buying any myself! We try to put a limit on the amount as it is the thought that counts. If people really want something they're going to buy it anyway!

I don't want to give up on it, I've probably definitely put more effort into this project than any of my others so I will keep going. Cast iron piston and valve and larger diameter wick is the course of action now. Beyond that, I can't quite see where I'm going wrong. What I don't want to do is re-make everything! I might as well try the other design.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Nick


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## putputman (Jan 1, 2010)

Nick, it looks like you are very close to the end now. The timing and fits are right. Thermoexpansion is a killer. Have you considered using graphite for your pistons. I had to go that route to get mine running but it was worth it. Once you get the properly fit, you only have to keep it clean to keep it running.
Best of luck with the engine and Happy New Year.


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## zturgut (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi Nick,
Though I do not think I am experienced enough to give any advice or make comment about this engine (at least not before I get mine running ) I could not wait since you wrote about trying some other design. I could not get if you are talking about the "poppin" or the "two cylinder" of Jan Ridders. I know that the engine did not manage to run but I wonder if you have felt any tendence to run (more number of turns till it stops) when you tried it with flame. If so, there may be another alternative like turning the engine into a two cylinder by building another (completely symmetrical) one and connecting it to the same crank shaft with 180 degrees angle. Although this is doubling the risk I think it will provide continous power applied on the crank shaft. During the forward stroke of one piston the other will be on compression. Also when I watch the J. Ridders videos, I have the imression that the two cylinder one is running a little more stable...Just an idea.. I think that no effort and work done is useless even if it fails, but for me this project of yours really deserves to be a success somehow. I hope you don't put it on the shelf before it runs. 
Regards,
Zeki


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## NickG (Jan 2, 2010)

Arv,

I hope so! I wouldn't know where to get the graphite and also how did you fasten your piston? In the same way with a yoke but drill right through and fasten with nut and washer? I can't imagine tapping it?

Happy new year to you too, all the best.

Zeki,

sorry for any confusion, it was 'poppin' that I was thinking of trying if this doesn't work, it's a more conventional design with a cam operated valve. Good point about the twin cylinder, but the way I have my base it'd be like building a whole new engine, the only thing I'd save was the flywheel and bearing uprights - in which case I'd rather try a different design. The only tendency I felt for it trying to run was possibly a few more turns when flicked over, but again, this is subjective as it's difficult to give the same power each time on your flick!

I was actually thinking about making another piston / valve from steel last night before I can get my hands on cast iron - that's how desperate I am to get it to run! It can only be that that is stopping it. As putputman says, the route I go down may have to be graphite.

Thanks for your comments.

Nick


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## jimmyocharlie (Jan 2, 2010)

i know what you mean about wanting to get it done Nick, i'm still waiting for my bearings for the bandsaw to turn up :'(

i've spent too much time over the holidays with a hacksaw in my hand :big: :big:

i had my EZ engine running yesterday to lift my spirits!!!


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## Blogwitch (Jan 2, 2010)

Nick,

As I said to you at the very beginning, this engine could tax you somewhat, I don't think you realised just how much.

I was very lucky with mine and got the fits just right first time, and so had very little trouble (compared to yourself) in getting both my cylinders firing.

It is such a shame you don't live a little closer, as I could have got your 'play with' materials out of my stash boxes, and maybe could even have seen where your problems lay.

I don't think I have any more suggestions for you to try, my bucket is now empty.

The only thing I could suggest is do what you are going to do, and see if it cures your problem, then if it doesn't, put it away for a while, and carry on with a more guaranteed project, there is no shame in that, you have suffered enough at this time, and when eventually I get the gas burners into a working state, I will send you one and see if that helps to solve your problem.


Blogs


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## Jeroen Jonkman (Jan 2, 2010)

Hello Nick,

I've just found this forum and your amazing posts on your version of the flame gulper.
You've asked me some questions about my flame gulper on YouTube, and now I've seen yours, I'm sure that it is only a matter of a few more hours before it runs.
Everything looks nice, well build and figured out. The fit of the piston and valve is important as well as the flame. Keep close to the recommendations of Jan Ridders, and you will find everything will fall into place. A twin cylinder (in boxer configuration, as the one Blogwitch made) is possible, but not necessary for it to be a good runner. Mine will start and run 100% reliable, yours will soon...

Best of luck and hang in there, greetings from Holland


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## NickG (Jan 4, 2010)

Hi Blogs, 

You were right, I didn't think it'd be this taxing and it is very frustrating. As I said before, I've put the most work into this and got the least out, so having something that wouldnt even try to work was hard. So Ive tried to be as methodical as possible with my trouble shooting. Thanks for the offer  if Im still struggling I might just make the journey down there one day to see your good self and Stew as well!

Jeroen,

Im glad you found the forum and I am glad I found your videos on youtube - thanks for answering my questions and giving your advice as Blogs, Jan Ridders and many others have. Please everybody have a look at some of Jeroens fantastic engines and videos on his youtube site: http://www.youtube.com/user/JeroenJonkman . Not sure whether you are working on a project currently Jeroen but Im sure people would be interested to see some of your work on this forum?

Well, I feel Ive made a pretty big step in the right direction over the weekend. On the off chance that it was open, I rang the metal place on Sat morning as we needed to go into town to find a new internal door. We can feel the draught from the utility room when in kitchen with this cold weather - the previous owners, for reasons only known to themselves took off the door and put it in the garden! Anyway, the metal place was open, so I got enough metal to do a new piston / valve for this engine and make two 'poppin' engines! Not bad for £16 squid, I like the fact that I can just work direct to proven drawings with known materials at that price.

Anyway, digressing again, I will just call the piston and valve pistons from now on as its annoying the heck out of me! I was allowed into the garage on Saturday afternoon to make new pistons from the cast iron bar as I couldnt wait! I made them as good a fit as I could. That was the same dimensions as the alloy ones I made. They felt slightly sticky at first but a few strokes up and down in the cylinder knocked any high spots off. Im sure people have got better fits than me, but I dont think Ill get them any better. The bore of the cylinder and the surface of the pistons werent polished, I didnt do any lapping this time, the bore was reamed with an adjustable reamer with plenty of oil and the pistons were just turned with new carbide cutting tool with the slowest feed. They both have a very smooth feel to them and I think better like that than if I tried to lap them and make them not parallel or round.

I carefully cleaned and assembled the new components and spun the engine over with a flick of the flywheel  it ran very freely but made a nice sucking noise as with the alloy pistons. So I decided to try it. I warmed the cylinder with a pencil torch first then lit the meths burner. I was shocked when the engine started to pick up on its own. This was with the original cast iron flywheel incidentally. I watched in awe for a few seconds then rushed for the camera but by the time I got back it was slowing down and came to a halt. There was now some friction present, the meths I am using seems to put a nasty brown deposit on everything. So I tried some 3 in 1 oil but immediately noticed as a lot of people have said, it caused too much drag.

At this point I had arranged to go to a friends, but I went with a spring in my step and couldnt stop thinking about it  I cant be far away.

Ive had another couple of chances to try running it since. One session late that night when I got back, and one on Sunday afternoon, both not totally successful though unfortunately.

Here is a short video from the first:




I seem to have found the optimum flame position for mine, which is very strange  its actually the other side of the port which is bizarre. The next best position seems to be where Jan Ridders suggests and where Jeroen and Blogs have positioned their flames but it doesnt seem as good there, the flame gets blown about more.

Another thing I tried was changing the flywheel to the alloy one. That doesnt seem to have enough inertia. It wont carry it to the next stroke more than a couple of times and sort of kicks back. But maybe the big one still has too much  not sure, I dont think so otherwise it wouldnt run for as long as it did probably? I dont want to take anything off the flywheel anyway because I cant add it back on!

The engine seems to run for only around 30 seconds before it gives up the ghost. I think there are a couple of reasons for that, 1 is the deposit I am getting from the meths. I need to try to get hold of some denatured alcohol which is supposed to be better in that respect. The other thing is, as everybody has mentioned, they are very sensitive to flame position and the flame getting out of shape. Ive noticed that I am using a wick ½ the diameter of what Jan suggests. Only 4mm instead of 8mm. That larger width of flame might give it more stability.

Here are two more runs, please excuse the noise from the kids they werent aware of the significance of this moment in my life! I was going to try and edit these for the best bits but might as well show them warts and all incase anybody picks up on anything.







In the last video, when I start it the final time, you can actually see the engine accelerate a little when I shoved the burner right into that corner in front of the port. This please me somewhat. Also in the last two videos I was using some very light oil which worked wonders on my stirling engine. Trouble is, I dont really know what it is, it came with some electric hair clippers! The oil seems to prevent build up of the residue whilst maintaining a good seal and keeping friction down when hot.

So a couple of things I am thinking are:
1.	I really need a larger diameter wick, so Ill make a new burner cap with larger wick tube. Blogs, I noticed you stated in the twin cylinder project log that vertical wick tubes are better. I angled mine over so I could get it right against the port face, do you think this would make a difference. I could always trim the height of the burner and use vertical tube to get right up. Jan still has a slight angle on his single but straight on his twin the same as yours.
2.	I need to try some denatured alcohol if possible, hopefully without nasty residues.
3.	Could I make a drip feed oil cup at each end of the cylinder like poppin has. The author of that article swears blind the oil feed is necessary, he suggests sewing machine oil. Mine does seem to like the oil. When it stops and I re-apply a couple of drops of oil, it restarts again no trouble and doesnt get snarled up with residue. However, the denatured alcohol may solve that, or a special gas burner like Blogs has suggested.
Feeling a lot more optimistic now, still some way to go but some encouraging progress. Thanks for watching and for your input guys.

Nick


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## putputman (Jan 4, 2010)

Congratulations Nick, I think you are close to having this one whipped. :bow: :bow: :bow:

I heard that increase in rpm so I agree that some fine adjustments to your flame should solve your problems. Can you also lower the flame so it hit the engine lower and has more flame on cylinder.

Your audience sure sounded impressed with your engine. :big: :big: :big:


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## Blogwitch (Jan 4, 2010)

Nick,

Very well done indeed, you are so close, that with a little fine tuning, you should have a continuous runner. Mine runs until it is out of fuel, but it is a bit of a gas guzzler.

There is definitely something wrong with that spirits you are using, you shouldn't hardly be able to see the flame at all. I use the normal purple stuff from the DIY stores, as it is very difficult for me to get the industrial meths any more. I am sure it will run a lot better once you change over.

I just couldn't get mine to run at all with an angled burner tube or on the side you are running it on. Both my cylinders work at exactly the same position, even though they are 'handed'. It must be something to do with the dimensional differences somewhere, even a tiny change might make the engine run in a different way. But you have got a runner, so why change it. Give the insides a good clean down with the clean meths to get rid of any residue, and try it without the oil first, it will take a while for it to bed in and get good running surfaces, that will happen faster if you can run without oil, just using the carbon content of the cast iron to form the bearing surfaces.

You must have a smile like a Cheshire cat ;D ;D
Blogs


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## NickG (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks putputman,

Glad the rpm increase wasn't just psycological! I did try making the flame smaller so the hotter part was being sucked in that that was a pretty similar result. Or did you mean physically lowering the whole thing but keeping same flame size. I might skim a bit off the top of the burner body so I can do that, can alway pack it up with something if need be.

It was probably them that made the flame wobble too much :big: no seriously though they are so twitchy it's unbelievable. I thought one with a big bore and stroke like this would have a decent amount of power but my 3/8" bore& 1/2" stroke stirling probably has more than 2 x power of this with a flame half 1/4 the size!

Thanks Blogs, just saw your reply as I was submitting this. Not sure why my flame is a bit orange. We have had that purple meths for years now though - probably more than 10 years, is it hydroscopic? I'll definitely try some new. People say to get the other stuff from a chemist but I didn't think chemists sell things like that any more!

Yeah, it could be dimensional differences, my bore is now 19.5mm instead of 18mm which makes the wall thinner to the port face, although I don't think I went as deep with my grooves originally - probably a good job or they'd be a bit close!

 :big: I am much happier, almost went Ar*e over T*t running for the camera that first time! I'd be ecstatic if I could get it to run for a good 5 or 10 mins though!

Nick


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## putputman (Jan 4, 2010)

What I meant was to physically lower the flame but keep it the same size or larger.


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## doc1955 (Jan 4, 2010)

putputman  said:
			
		

> What I meant was to physically lower the flame but keep it the same size or larger.


Thats what I found on the flame licker engines I built, if I had the flame to high they didn't run so good I lowered and they ran much better. Plus I found that denatured alcohol works the best for fuel I've been buying mine at Walmart.
I was hoping you would get it to run when you started yours I get all revved up and stated one of this type also but got side tracked on the beam engine. It is setting here waiting its turn on getting finished.


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## Powder keg (Jan 4, 2010)

Sounds like your on the right track Nick!


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## rake60 (Jan 4, 2010)

Looking Great Nick! :bow:

Rick


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## Deanofid (Jan 4, 2010)

Yeah Nick! You don't know how happy it made ME to see YOUR engine starting to run on it's own two legs. Woot!
Really glad for you, and glad to see it myself.

By the way.. I couldn't understand a thing your young one was saying. Must be that crazy accent.

Dean


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## NickG (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I will try to get the denatured stuff, if not some new meths will have to do and I'll tweak the burner to see if that makes the difference.

Dean, we can't understand must of it either, he's 18 months old so only has a few words in his repetoire at the moment - Bear, Stuck, Book, Choc (Chocolate) etc! You're right though, you probably wouldn't get the accent! :big:

I find it slightly strange that just making the bore and pistons fit together slightly better made it go from not trying at all to a (nearly) running engine! It shows how critical it is. The only other thing changed was the piston was a bit more hollowed out as per the drawings. I'm now slightly anxious to see if that really made any difference and make a piston my way - but don't think I'll bother! :big:

Nick


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## MikeR C (Jan 5, 2010)

NickG
The follow is a copy of several e-mail exchanges with Jim Senft, who designed the "Poppin": (Jim's comments are in brackets)

MRC-I built your "Poppin" and thatseemed to work just fine (it's about
the cutest little engine ever!)
[thanks-are you running the pistondry or oiled?]

MRC I ran it dry, cast iron cylinder and piston, fit was good, used fiber optic film to fit piston to cylinder.I didn't want oil running down on the little wooden cart (nothing like aesthetics crippling a fine design!). After a while it wouldn't run very well and on inspection the bore was full of "stuff". I was using propane (a disposable lighter) but with a yellow flame. I have taken it apart and am going to clean the bore out and change the piston to graphite (isn't e-bay fun) I am going switch the fuel over to ethyl alcohol.

[Thanks for the reply to my question re dry or oiled. A castiron piston in a cast iron cylinder will run for extended periods withjust boundary lubrictaion (a smear of oil when assembling) on smallStirling engines under conditions that impose little side loading. However, in a vacuum engine, unburnt products of combustion accumulate under "dry" conditions and eventually gum up the works. The average state of vacuum in a vacuum engine generates a steady flow of oil through the cylinder and out the valve and keeps everythingfreely moving indefinitely. My engines were not mounted on wood so the oil was not a problem as long as we steered clear of the livingroom coffee table. Mounting on wood is a good idea though for these engines, since at high speed they can start to danceabout.]

MRC-I made a lubricator and put the cast iron piston back in the "Poppin" and ran it on alcohol "Everclear" . I am running synthetic motor oil in the lubricator (it seems to feed OK and I'm hoping the detergent partkeeps the "stuff" in suspension so it will come out). I ran it for about an hour, and it ran just fine! It seemed to stay veryclean when I pulled the heads to look in the cylinder.

Nick,
He was right I now use synthetic motor oil (Mobile1) and the engine sucks it in and blows it out the head (doesn't drip on the cart after all). If the oiler is open too far it spits flaming drops out the intake hole! It will run until the paint on the frame starts to smoke so I shut it off. I never made the graphite piston. I have heard that oil is a definite no-no with graphite.

Thank you VERY much for posting your build. I am interested in hearing how the new burner works out...
MikeR C


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## NickG (Jan 6, 2010)

Wow,

Thanks for the info Mike. Your lubericator looks very smart, is that to Jim's design? Can't quite see in the photo. Did you post some larger ones back in this post? Will have to have a look in a bit. Got to scoot off to a meeting!

Will post any progress.

Nick


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## Jeroen Jonkman (Jan 6, 2010)

Nick,

so glad I've seen your video! You are so close now, this is an exiting and happy time.

You wrote about your flywheel, and how you are not sure what to do. I have changed the flywheel too and it seems to run at least just as good as the original one. I'm not saying you should change yours, in fact, it is far nicer than mine, but to give you some more information I've measured mine and placed it here for you to check.





I'm anxious to see the next video and hope you will soon find the right setup so it runs to even exceed your dreams!

Jeroen


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## NickG (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi all - update on the engine:

I had to come home early from work yesterday afternoon so I took the opportunity to go and buy some Industrial Denatured Alcohol (Industrial Meths, which is 99% ethanol). Luckily there is an oil / paint / chemical merchant near by called Smith & Allan. Cost me £16.02 for 5 litres. Incidentally they also do a similar lubricant to WD40 for £12 a gallon  bit cheaper!

I tried the engine last night with the new fuel and with the wick in the strange position that I found best before. With the tiniest touch of the flywheel it burst into life straight from lighting the burner! I was gobsmacked, it was running away with itself, never seen it going so fast, but then it stopped. This was partly because the flame was twitching around so much at that speed, and partly because some condensation built up.

I restarted it, here is the video - it didn't go for long but probably longer than it had done before, still going at a fair rate! This was with the oil that was left from the previous run a couple of days before, but I'd run out of that electric razor oil now:





After this it was a bit of a pain and I was fiddling around for quite a bit to get it started again, probably took a while to warm up. But then I decided to try some engine oil as suggested by Mike RC and David D. I only had 10w40 semi synthetic which is a bit thicker than the 5w30 suggested. Anyway, I tried some of that as well as messing around with flame positions again. I also put a drop of oil down each side of the flywheel and on the push rod etc.

Bizzarely I then found a another sweet spot for the burner that seems to make it run not as fast, but more consistently - funnily enough, this was exactly where Jan Ridders suggests and Jeroen Jonkman and Blogs have theirs - on the other side of the port. 

This is the longest video I captured of it running as previously whenever I reached for the camera it stopped! It had run for a couple of minutes before I started this video and it only stopped because it ran out of fuel this time! You will notice the different flame position and you might notice that it is running in the opposite direction. It seems to run the same in either direction, its just that this direction tends to try to tighten the crankpin rather than loosen it.

 ;D  





I then filled the burner back up and tried again, it ran pretty much until the burner ran out, which was probably over 20 mins only stopping a couple of times on the way due to the flame fluttering a bit too much. I think a larger wick would give a more stable and wider flame which would help a bit. What also happens is - the engine speeds up, then the flame gets blown around a bit and it slows down, flame stabilises and it picks back up again.

I tried to run it again today but because the oil had thickened up with reduced temperature it took a few minutes to warm up but then settled into that steady rhythm again. Im absolutely chuffed with this project now and I consider it complete. I was going to open some Cava we have in the fridge to celebrate but the wife wouldnt let me! :big:

Only problem now is, what to do with all that metal I bought for Poppin. I might try to design a Hit & Miss IC engine based on the design of poppin.

At this point Id like to give a big thanks to everybody for their interest, support and encouragement as well as some invaluable advice. :bow:

Nick


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## Blogwitch (Jan 7, 2010)

Nick,

Very well done indeed, all that worrying and anguish over a bit of meths.

But as you have been told by a lot of people, these engines will use any excuse not to run. Get the bits right, and they will run forever.

In all honesty, I personally would give it a good clean out with meths, and keep the oil well away from the cylinder and anything that runs in it. I only put a tiny amount on the crankpin in the piston and on the pin that goes thru the top sliding valve. Of course where the rod runs thru the cylinder and big end should be done as well.
I found that running with any oil in the cylinder, it stopped running after about 15 mins, clogged up with gunge, but with a clean bore, it just goes on for hours and hours.

Mine must have well over 100 hours on it now. When I am just sitting at my bench with finger up my a**e and brain in neutral, I just get it out and let it run a while, it is a very soothing pastime, just watching it ticking over at that constant slow pace, it almost puts you to sleep.


Blogs


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## NickG (Jan 7, 2010)

Blogs,

Thanks very much.

I might try that as this new meths might be less prone to muckying things up so it may run a lot faster. Depends whether my seal is good enough between piston and bore without it, it should be as it's run before without oil, just for a limited period. With the oil it will run until the meths runs out now but at a slightly reduced speed so very happy with that.

I agree it's a mesmorising engine to watch, sounds a bit like a large clock ticking! I'm not sure I want to do poppin now though, I think making flame lickers might be out of my system - fancy an IC engine!

Nick


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## putputman (Jan 7, 2010)

Congratulations Nick, I knew it was just a matter of time and you would whip it. 
I recommend you go ahead and build the Poppin. It has some differant characteristics and is not quite as sensitive. You will get some experience with timing that might help in your I.C. engines later on.


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## NickG (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks putputman!

That's a good point. Will have to have a think about my next project, might go for something a bit different to ease the trauma this has put me through! :big:


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## Jeroen Jonkman (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi Nick, glad you got it figured out!
Trying to find the best result can take a long time, but at least you can say it is completed!

It looks like the end of your wick is actually burning, which is not optimum because of the contamination being sucked in. Try to allow for a loose fit of the wick in the burner, so the alcohol can move upwards freely.

You have made a very, very nice engine indeed!


Jeroen


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## NickG (Jan 7, 2010)

Jeroen,

Funny you mentioned that, I wondered why that was happening but I thought it might be being choked as you said. I've made my wick a tight fit in the burner so it wouldn't fall down, thought it seemed a bit tight when I did it. Will open that up.

Thankyou very much.

Nick


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## Maryak (Jan 7, 2010)

Nick,

Congratulations. :bow: :bow:

A P+++ for perseverance. and a T+++ for tenacity. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## MikeR C (Jan 7, 2010)

Congratulations!
I had been wanting to build one of these as it looks simple (Ha!), so I have been on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens. Thank you VERY much for time you spent keeping us up to date on the project. I have some graphite and when the current project is done I'm gonna take a whack at building one now that I know they really run  Have a "K".

Thanx again,
Mike C


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## Deanofid (Jan 7, 2010)

A wonderful success, Nick. Capital doin's!

I watched the last flick twice. It makes such a pleasant sound. Tip-tap-tip-tap-tip-tap. A perfect sound to go along with the engine! Good going there, mister.

Dean


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## NickG (Jan 8, 2010)

Thanks again Bob, Mike and Dean. It is pleasing to watch! Good luck on your build Mike, hopefully there are some bits for possible learning in my ramblings. A graphite piston and valve sounds a good way to go. I'll be watching with great interest once you start.

Nick


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