# Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner



## joco-nz

Yes another newbie is struggling with the what lathe do I get question.  Later it will be the "what mill do I get".  But first things first - Lathe.

I have been reading and reading on both this forum and many others, as well as looking at peoples personal websites.  I have subscribed to MEW and read through the vast bulk of the back issues as well as reading many of the very good Workshop Series books.  So now I am drowning in theory and great ideas.

My primary driver is to learn to make things with metal. Ive been/am into woodwork and while I dont claim to be a cabinet maker I can get things done.  Im really keen to learn the art of metal work. At least to a proficient level where I can enjoy the process of creation and in seeing the result being both functional and well made.

The areas that Im looking to explore are:
- Model steam engines
- Model diesel engines
- Glow plug model engines
- Tools described in the likes of the Workshop Series books such as numbers #31, #34, #35 and #37
- A number of cool looking projects from MEW

Im not going to get into turning parts for Cars or motor bikes. I do have a half formed idea to make a go-kart from scratch [not the engine though  ]. But that is very much in the future after much learning with a yet to purchase lathe and mill, I have the welder.

Im in NZ and while I see various Myford 7s, the odd Boxford and once in a blue moon a Southbend appear second-hand, most look so rusted that Im suspicious. The rest look used as hell and I have no knowledge on how to filter the good/recoverable ones from the rubbish.

So I have resigned myself to getting new Chinese iron. I recognise that means I will in all probability have to strip the machine down (arguably a good learning exercise) and clean out all the free foundry material shipped with it then reassemble and re-grease/oil it.

I have looked around the NZ market and the general options that are not beyond my size and price limits, and allowing dollars left for tooling, would appear to be (in no particular order):

[1]  Sieg SC4
http://www.sieg-machines.co.nz/lathes-bechtop/325-dieg-sc4510.html
NZD 2,473


[2] Optimum TU-2506V
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L689
NZD 2,392


[3] Hafco AL-320G
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L141
NZD 3,174
NB: The AL-250G was discounted as it doesnt do any imperial threads, only metric.


[4] CQ6128
http://www.chevpac.co.nz/catalogue/lathes-small-9_72_582_1631/lathe-cq6128-250-x-750mm-L__120635?p=1
NZD 2,529


Im hoping a few of the members from this part of the world will be able to give me some of their experiences and wisdom.  Another factor in the above list is that some of the above units dont come with many accessories. The Sieg and Optimum being the worst. Adding in those extras alone push many up to the Hafco's price.

Are the sizes in this mix pretty reasonable? From what I have read I believe they are and should handle what I am looking to get into.

Any particular brands/models that are generally better than others?

Or is it just a matter of rolling the dice with the best bang for buck and holding the retailer to account for unreasonable issues?

I confess to a slight inclination to the AL-320G.  Mainly because I have seen some very impressive work by members of this forum using this model machine and its the biggest.  

Any ideas, experiences, advice gratefully received.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

Another question ...   I did say it would be questions from the newbie.  :thumbup:

Looking at collets and they totally make sense when dealing with round stock.   I see you generally have 5c system and the ER system.  It seems like the 5c system has a draw bar type model pulling through the lathe bore and closing them into the collet holder, whereas the ER system uses a compression ring on the collet holder.

Any benefit in either direction?  Or just a different way to achieve the same outcome?


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## kiwi2

Hi James,
                I'm in Auckland and can offer a bit of advice.
Last year my old Emco V10P (a really nice example of Austrian engineering) lathe which which I had bought second hand 10 -15 years ago had finally got to the stage where I needed to get a replacement.
I did a lot of internet based research and based on what I found I came up with pretty much the same list and suppliers you have.
I went to Machinery House and looked at an Optimum lathe. I couldn't see it running but the cross slide seemed to be intermittently binding and the sales guy couldn't explain why. I wasn't too impressed - if they couldn't set it up as a display unit properly in the shop, what were the chances I would get a trouble free unit out of a crate? I therefore discounted it - probably unfairly.
I also looked at the CQ6128 at Chevpac. The sales guy was very good and actually ran a long lead to the display machine so I could see it running. I quite liked what I saw. The only drawback I saw with it was that the motor is not one of the newer brushless models which have a wider power band but they get around this by having two pulleys from the motor to the lathe to give good torque at low speed. It did have a lot of accessories as standard with the lathe.
I had seen a number of favourable reviews of the Seig SC4 at various sites and quite liked the look of it. The problem I found with it was that the local supplier operated out of a warehouse and didn't have any machines set up to have a look at. Regardless of this, I decided to go ahead and order an SC4 based on the positive reviews I had seen.
Big mistake. Never buy a lathe without being able to touch it and get a feel for how it operates. As soon as the SC4 came out of the crate I wasn't happy with it. I found it to be a badly designed, badly made piece of rubbish. It was so badly made the tailstock rocked diagonally on the bed. The machining of the bottom surface was just awful - it was milled rather than ground and the mill should have been sharpened about 5 lathes earlier. It took a couple of months for a new tailstock to arrive - it didn't rock but there was a tight spot when rotating the hadwheel - I suspect the shaft is a bit bent. 
There a numerous other things I really don't like about the SC4.
 I have decided that next February when (if) it ever stops raining and I can get access across my lawn to the shed I will get rid of the SC4 and perhaps look at the CQ6128 again. Mind you, if I do go that way, I'll be wanting to buy the machine I have inspected in the shop, not another one.
Given that there is no showroom for the SC4 in NZ, if you want to have a look at one, send me a private message and I'll give you instructions on how to find me (I'm in Papakura). You can try mine out. 
Given the generally favourable comments regarding the SC4 lathe, maybe I'm being too critical but I'm definitely not a fan.
Regards,
Alan C.


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## bazmak

Hi,i started with sieg sc2 7x16 and was very happy.When the electronics blew
I sold it on cheap and moved to the sieg sc4.Again very happy.But I would say
that dependant on what you want to make,then the 7x14/16 at less than half the price of the 8x20 is a good buy.I bought the er32 collet set for the mill
19 pieces and grips any sizt from 1mm to 20mm,and all imperial between
cost about $100 from china and well worth it.I made a chuck for the lathe
and later bought one for the Sc4.When you get a mill again I have the sx2
with R8 quill again about a thousand dollars.Therefore you could get the lathe and mill with accessories for the same price as the SC4.My advice,if you look at threads under Bazmak you will get a feel for what can be done.Any further advice then send me a PM and I can email photos etc PS I use the collet set more than the chucks in the mill and the lathe.Great for holding screws in the lathe without damage
 Regards barry


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## Blogwitch

James,
As you can see above, two different people with totally different views on the same machine. That is the sort of problems you will get when asking what to buy.

Another thing is that Sieg, when producing their machines, quality can vary dramatically.
This is because they are usually made down to a price, given to them by the retailer, so that they can undercut everyone else, so it isn't always a good thing to buy the cheapest of the same model. It is better to pay a bit more and get the basics already included with the machine, 3 & 4 jaws, faceplate, centres and even sometimes not included, a threading dial. What you really need is a package that will get you almost up and running from day one, except for the required set up, and after that you can start to look at all the extras that you MIGHT use in the forthcoming years. I say the word MIGHT because people rush out and say to themselves that they can't live without such and such a tool, only to find it hasn't been used ever since they bought it. I know from personal experience that this sort of thing happens, so I gave most of them away and only now buy or make things that I really NEED.

If you can get to the retailer, cash usually talks. When buying my mill and lathe, I showed the salesman a wad of notes that he could get his fidgety claws into if he could make the package desirable. It ended up by getting them VAT free (17.5% at the time) plus power feeds all round on the mill (X,Y & Z, it only came with an X axis one as standard) and all sorts of other freebies thrown in for both the lathe and mill. All in, I most probably got both of them a good 1,500 pounds cheaper, plus all the bits for nothing.

With regards to most makes of Chinese machinery, they come out of the factory just assembled and dropped into a box, not set up to use, and this is how it is delivered to you. 
So that is the time you get to know your machines, stripping down, deburring, cleaning and lubricating, then setting them up for optimal performance and accuracy.
Some suppliers will do all this for you, but expect a largish bill for doing it. I was lucky that my supplier did all that for nothing, I have only had to fine tweak my lathe in the last 5 years, mainly because I was doing certain mods, and the mill hasn't had to be touched except to replace a very cheap bearing.

You are now starting down a road that can be one of the most amazing pastimes you will ever come across, making working things from sometimes bits of junk.

Just enjoy the journey

John


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## rodw

I know how you feel. I had a look at all of the options you have identified and I looked at the Seig (which was easy to discount), the CQ6128 which was from a very small importer so I was worried about support and settled on either the AL250G or the AL320G from Hare and Forbes Machinery House (Close to home and proven support). At the time the Optimum was not available. Hare and Forbes gave up the Seig franchise and replaced the brand with Optimum after my purchase. 

Having looked at the Optimum Mill in their showroom that replaced the Seig SX3 mill I purchased, I concluded that the Seig was a vastly superior machine to Optimum.

In the end, I chose the AL320G despite having to deal with change gears for threading. Mainly becasue it was truly an upgrade in terms of spindle bore, chuck size and swing from my old 3 in 1 and the AL250G was the same size. I would have loved to go up one more size to the AL336 to get DI-4 chucks but did not have the room for it. The AL320G has more or less the same  working envelope as the 3 phase lathe we have at work (but a lot shorter).

Honestly, despite all of the criticism, of Chinese machines, this one stacks up admirably. Mine is now 3 years old and after filing away a few rough edges in the 4 jaw chuck so it spun freely , it is a great performer. The spindle is 100% runout free before you add any chuck (which adds a bit) Its now pretty heavilly modified. The commercial products I make with it, I can smash out in well under half the time I used to and I no longer need to use the 4 jaw chuck to hold the parts I make. Recently I made some parts for work afterhours when everybody was really busy. I did them in the same time that experienced machinists could do them on bigger gear at work. I had to take lighter cuts but gained a bit of time due to having a DRO.

Now in terms of 5C collets, I did purchase one of the spindle adapters from H&F but later sold it to a forum member and opted to fit a 5C collet chuck from Little Machine Shop in the US. Much better.

So most of my adventures with my machines are documented in my Rod's Aussie Shed thread  at http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=19885

Oh, I've still to this day only cut 1 thread with a lot of help from the forum members and its documented in my shed thread somewhere.

PS: This is a big and powerful beast so treat it with respect for your own safety. Go for the AL320G I say.


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## joco-nz

Gents - thank you for the responses. I do realise the potential can of worms this question can open.  As John essentially noted it is very possible to get different experiences on what is essentially the same model but coming from different suppliers who have had it built to different quality levels.

Its a tricky decision, Im sure I would have a heap of fun with something like an SC2 or equivalent size. However I have been bitten in the past in getting tools that are just enough and within less than 6 months been cursing that I didnt do it right first time.  So for that reason alone I am leery of the mini-lathe 7x12+ sizes. Not because they are not capable within their envelop, just that I dont want to be disappointed when I go to try something and cant.

Ive read a lot of good stuff about the SC4s but I have also read a lot about the niggle that exists. All able to be overcome but you do end up wondering why so many compromises. In fact in the Sieg range I discounted the S/C6 and above models due to prices vs capability and having read that the SC4 had Japanese bearings in the headstock yet the larger models didnt seem to enjoy the same attention.  Go figure.

Optimum look good on paper but have never seen one in the flesh. Heck I havent seen any of these in the flesh as the closest retailer is in Auckland and Im Wellington based.  Although Coastal Machinery based out of Fielding has the CQ6128.  I would just have to take a day off work to go and see them, just to see a lathe.  Sheesh.

Re Optimum, pity Rods assessment on comparing to the Sieg is not so flash.  I was hoping their BF20L would be a good option instead of the SX3 when it came to mills. Its certainly popular in Europe.

John - you have it bang on.  Its absolutely the journey that matters. I recognise that and have already mentally prepared my self for whatever machine I end up with having to strip, clean, setup, lap etc etc it before I can use it for projects.  But I think that wont be a bad thing.  I will learn how its put together, how it has been made and what parts will likely wear if I dont give them the right levels of TLC over time.

So its smelling more and more like the AL-320G is pushing to the top of the pile.  I like its work envelope, nothing I am going to get into will be too large for it. I dont mind the change gears, not like Im trying to meet a production schedule so having to swap em now and then isnt an issue. The lathes not too long/wide for the available space (I could actually get an AL-960B, its just too expensive). And I can follow in the foot steps of people like Rob who have them and learn from their mods and what parts/tools they get. Heck I can even more power it with a 3 phase motor off a VFD if it ever comes to it.      Yes that AL-320G is a beast, as are any of the lathes, they will all bite you if your dont give them respect. Machine with high speed spinning parts, and my Dewalt table saw reminds me of that every time I spin it up and see all those sharp spinning teeth whirling about.

On the plus side I have a very friendly neighbour with 30+ years experience in machining, welding and the like who has graciously agreed to give me some lessons in exchange for beer. Heck hes even scrounging up some scrap metal for me to run practice welding beads on.

Rod - read the Aussie Shed thread.  And read and read, its what got me thinking more seriously about the 320G. I did wince when I saw those pics of the toppled lathe.

Any other thoughts, observations, learnings welcome.

Cheers,
James.


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## purpleknif

The Chevpack looks to be the same as my Grizzly G0602 . It too came with a bunch of accesories . I've been extremely happy with mine over the past 3 years. The 2 chucks and faceplate are a definite plus.


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## bruedney

Hi James

Welcome to the forum

Have you been to a club night anywhere? If not then I would like to invite you to the Hutt Valley Model Engineering Society club night tomorrow night at 7.30pm. Have a look at the website HVMES for directions

I have a Hafco AL-51 and hope to be upgrading to the AL 336 at some point. A number of the club members have the 336

What part of Wellington do you live in?

Cheers and hope to see you tomorrow

Bruce Edney


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## Hopper

I would be wary of Optimum too. I have only had experience with one Optimum machine, a micro lathe the next size down from the C3 size and it was a woefully poorly made machine. Bed ways had about 10 thou drop off at the tail stock end, allegedly hardened ways as soft as butter, carriage and cross slide ways had minimal contact when blued and the lead screw was so far out of alignment at the tailstock end it was jamming up the movement of the carriage and wreaking havoc. It seemed to be a poor copy of a late Unimat 3 but the amount of metal in the castings etc was skun down to almost nothing. All very flexible and very poorly put together. 

If their bigger lathes are at all like it, I would avoid them completely.


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## XD351

I have an al50 g and the al 320 , the 50g has been a reliable machine and done what ever I have asked of it even if it is a little dinky due to its small size .
The 320 I bought second hand and has done some work but still machines ok, one thing with this lathe that i don't like is that it is not a double vee bed so the tail stock uses two spring loaded detent balls to push the tail stock against one side of the bed instead of the small vee as on the al50 .This is not a problem but you just need to get used to making sure the tailstock is seated properly or it will not be on centre with the spindle .
Both claim to be hardened beds but i doubt it .
The 320 also has power cross feed but i found the lever for this a bit vague in locating the cross or long feed position , i had to be ultra careful when switching to the neutral position when machining or it could easily jump across the neutral position usually ruining the work and tool.
I modified the lever so it has a detent ball system that helped to eliminate this , it is a fairly easy fix . If you want to fit an after market quick change tool post be aware that the top of the compound slide is not threaded but uses a tee bolt that has its head located in a slot inside the compound slide top ( you dismantle the compound and feed the bolt through from under the top of the compound slide), once again not hard to sort out but better that you know it now rather than later ! The change gear chart on the machine is correct but the one in the manual was wrong - probably a printing error . There was one reason why i didnt go the al 250 and that was metric only threads and the 320 came with a new dro fitted and it was still cheaper  than the al250.


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## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> ... If not then I would like to invite you to the Hutt Valley Model Engineering Society club night tomorrow night at 7.30pm.



Bruce - I haven't been and popping along is a fine idea!  :thumbup:



> I have a Hafco AL-51 and hope to be upgrading to the AL 336 at some point. A number of the club members have the 336


I looked at the 336 and 960 wistfully but as a learner getting something that large felt OTT.  I'm feeling that the 320 is right at the edge on that front and that I'm already suffering from the "next size up" disease. 




> What part of Wellington do you live in?



I'm based out in Whitby.  I'm setting my "shop/shed" up in my side of the garage.  So the car is relegated to the drive. But I have a reasonable amount of space as a result, so long as the bosses car parking space is not impacted.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

XD351 said:


> The 320 I bought second hand and has done some work but still machines ok, one thing with this lathe that i don't like is that it is not a double vee bed so the tail stock uses two spring loaded detent balls to push the tail stock against one side of the bed instead of the small vee as on the al50 .This is not a problem but you just need to get used to making sure the tailstock is seated properly or it will not be on centre with the spindle .


That's good to know.  I had noticed it didn't mesh with the V on the bed. But given the likes of Myford's have no V I hadn't thought it too much of an issue.



> The 320 also has power cross feed but i found the lever for this a bit vague in locating the cross or long feed position , i had to be ultra careful when switching to the neutral position when machining or it could easily jump across the neutral position usually ruining the work and tool.
> I modified the lever so it has a detent ball system that helped to eliminate this , it is a fairly easy fix .


I seem to remember reading that somewhere with mentions of "stops" being added to prevent over throw on the lever when doing things quickly.



> If you want to fit an after market quick change tool post be aware that the top of the compound slide is not threaded but uses a tee bolt that has its head located in a slot inside the compound slide top ( you dismantle the compound and feed the bolt through from under the top of the compound slide), once again not hard to sort out but better that you know it now rather than later !


I did not realise that re the tool post. My memory had me thinking it was a threaded rod. Ultimately though it shouldn't be too much of a hassle should it? Actually one of the "projects" I wanted to do was one of the QCTP designs from MEW.  I know I could get something commercial for a few hundred but part of the fun of this is learning so if I can make it and learn in the process I will.

Cheers,
James.


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## bruedney

Hi James

I am in Grenada Village so feel free to drop me a PM if you want to pop round some time or if you come to club night tomorrow we can exchange details.

Like I said I have an AL51 at the mo and it does OK. My friend has the 336D and I can use that if needed but I get lathe envy.

I also have a CNC mill (Similar to the BF20LV). It is in pieces at the mo coz 1mm DOC @ 200mm/min with a 50mm face mill is a bit too much for it. :fan:

Cheers

Bruce


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## Wizard69

Here are a some comments from a guy with good but not extensive experience with lathes at work and recently bought a 9x20 for a home shop build.  

Number one point -->. There is no perfect lathe!!!!    Seriously, even big industrial machines have their problems, quirks and performance issues.  

The trick, if you want to own only one lathe, is finding the right sized lathe.   This isn't easy at all because you have to project as to where your interests may go.   Beyond physical size a lathe can be configured at will.  




joco-nz said:


> Gents - thank you for the responses. I do realise the potential can of worms this question can open.  As John essentially noted it is very possible to get different experiences on what is essentially the same model but coming from different suppliers who have had it built to different quality levels.


Same discussions happen between Chevy and Ford owners.   The big problem is that many Chinese built machines are in fact crap.    Worst is that you literally gamble as to the build quality of anyone machine.  Unfortunately because so many buy on price and not quality there aren't a lot of non Chinese built machines available anymore. At least not at home shop prices.  


> Its a tricky decision, Im sure I would have a heap of fun with something like an SC2 or equivalent size. However I have been bitten in the past in getting tools that are just enough and within less than 6 months been cursing that I didnt do it right first time.  So for that reason alone I am leery of the mini-lathe 7x12+ sizes. Not because they are not capable within their envelop, just that I dont want to be disappointed when I go to try something and cant.



I've seen the work of some guys that use nothing more than Sherline or Tiag sized machines.   Those machine are perfectly suited for what they want to do but certainly aren't suitable for everyone into model engineering.    In a commercial shop you often see a small machine like a Sherline sitting in the corner as sometimes it is the right machine to reach for.   Big isn't always better.   New isn't always better neither, I know of one shop that has Hardinge HLV's sitting right next to some Amazing CNC machines.  Don't dismiss old simply because it is old.  


> Ive read a lot of good stuff about the SC4s but I have also read a lot about the niggle that exists. All able to be overcome but you do end up wondering why so many compromises. In fact in the Sieg range I discounted the S/C6 and above models due to prices vs capability and having read that the SC4 had Japanese bearings in the headstock yet the larger models didnt seem to enjoy the same attention.  Go figure.


The SC4 is a newer machine and like all companies I'm pretty sure they are trying to improve the lineup.   


> Optimum look good on paper but have never seen one in the flesh. Heck I havent seen any of these in the flesh as the closest retailer is in Auckland and Im Wellington based.  Although Coastal Machinery based out of Fielding has the CQ6128.  I would just have to take a day off work to go and see them, just to see a lathe.  Sheesh.


Don't put too much faith in looking at showroom equipment, at least to the Chinese stuff.   What is on the showroom floor can vary dramatically from what you get out of the box.   Learned this the hard way with a drill press.  


> Re Optimum, pity Rods assessment on comparing to the Sieg is not so flash.  I was hoping their BF20L would be a good option instead of the SX3 when it came to mills. Its certainly popular in Europe.


Optimum is an European brand if I remember correctly.   The machines are still made in China.  


> John - you have it bang on.  Its absolutely the journey that matters. I recognise that and have already mentally prepared my self for whatever machine I end up with having to strip, clean, setup, lap etc etc it before I can use it for projects.  But I think that wont be a bad thing.  I will learn how its put together, how it has been made and what parts will likely wear if I dont give them the right levels of TLC over time.


Machine maintenance is a big deal no matter who makes the machine.   


> So its smelling more and more like the AL-320G is pushing to the top of the pile.  I like its work envelope, nothing I am going to get into will be too large for it. I dont mind the change gears, not like Im trying to meet a production schedule so having to swap em now and then isnt an issue. The lathes not too long/wide for the available space (I could actually get an AL-960B, its just too expensive). And I can follow in the foot steps of people like Rob who have them and learn from their mods and what parts/tools they get. Heck I can even more power it with a 3 phase motor off a VFD if it ever comes to it.      Yes that AL-320G is a beast, as are any of the lathes, they will all bite you if your dont give them respect. Machine with high speed spinning parts, and my Dewalt table saw reminds me of that every time I spin it up and see all those sharp spinning teeth whirling about.


Safety is certainly an issue with bigger lathes, there can be a huge amount of torque at the spindle and a lot of inertia.  

As far as change gears vs a quick change box, change gears are a cheaper and somewhat less complex solution.  Ideally this means quality is being put into other aspects of the machine.   One can hope.  Maintenance wise you have an easier to maintain machine with change gears.   From a hobby perspective you need to ask yourself how often do you expect to change thread pitches.    I suspect the answer will be not often!!!   It depends upon the specifics of what you expect to do but many things you will work on will have very little in the way of cut threads.  


> On the plus side I have a very friendly neighbour with 30+ years experience in machining, welding and the like who has graciously agreed to give me some lessons in exchange for beer. Heck hes even scrounging up some scrap metal for me to run practice welding beads on.


This can be a huge help.   Do look for sources locally for scrape, cut offs and drops, you can save a lot of money vs buying from a supplier.  


> Rod - read the Aussie Shed thread.  And read and read, its what got me thinking more seriously about the 320G. I did wince when I saw those pics of the toppled lathe.
> 
> 
> 
> Any other thoughts, observations, learnings welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James.




Here are some considerations:

1.  Lathes are heavy!!   This is probably obvious but the reason I went the 9/20 route was to be able to easily move it into my basement shop.   Sometimes I kinda wished that I went for a bigger machine.  In the end you will have compromises to make.  

2.   Big isn't always better but if you are to have only one lathe make sure it is big enough for what you have in mind right now.  Seriously consider a size larger anyways.  

3.   Tooling costs you big bucks!   This is where I'm at now outfitting a shop.   You can easily double your costs by outfitting a lathe.   To off set this expense you really need to do as much DIY tooling as you can.  The good thing here is that building your tooling on the lathe can be good training in basic operations.   

4.    Unless you buy a mill at the same time you will need to look into ways to do milling on the lathe.   Model engineers of course have been doing this for years now but it will likely require additional tooling.  

5.    You need to learn to sharpen HSS tooling.  This is a requirement even if you do carbide inserts.   Note that this could mean an additional expense of a bench grinder and maybe even a die grinder.   This comes back to the issue of outfitting a shop.  The good thing here is that used grinders often pop up cheap.   

6.    Lathes are often sold with three jaw scroll chucks but you will need a four jaw independent.   It is pretty much a requirement.  Unfortunately it is pretty hard to make these without a mill so this could be an additional expense.   The other thing to look out for is a lathe sold with a four jaw that is too small to really be useful.   I guess this comes down to knowing what you are getting for your money.   

7.   One thing I really hate about the 9/20 is the screw on chuck (threaded spindle).   In small lathes you don't have a lot of options here but you might want to consider the alternatives to threaded spindles.   If you have any interest at all in CNC don't even bother with a threaded spindle nose.  This is one of those things that wasn't obvious to me initially but I just find to be frustrating.  

8.    Used lathes can be very good deals.    You seemed to have dismissed them already but I'd still would keep an eye open for a deal.    

9.    I really like the idea of variable speed capability.    It just makes for a more useful or desirable machine.   This is something that can be added latter though.   One consideration though is that a back gear or other form of ratio adjustment is still important to be able to supply tongue at low speeds.  This especially with smaller motors.  

10.   Don't expect to get everything you might want or need right off the bat.  Sometimes after market solutions are better anyways. For example spindle speed read outs can be useful but can be easily added latter.   Same thing goes for fancy quick change tool posts, good drill chucks and the like.  


Anyways that is ten observations right off the bat.   Personally I really think you need to zero in on the right size lathe first and go from there.


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## XD351

joco-nz said:


> That's good to know.  I had noticed it didn't mesh with the V on the bed. But given the likes of Myford's have no V I hadn't thought it too much of an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I seem to remember reading that somewhere with mentions of "stops" being added to prevent over throw on the lever when doing things quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not realise that re the tool post. My memory had me thinking it was a threaded rod. Ultimately though it shouldn't be too much of a hassle should it? Actually one of the "projects" I wanted to do was one of the QCTP designs from MEW.  I know I could get something commercial for a few hundred but part of the fun of this is learning so if I can make it and learn in the process I will.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James.




If you make your own tool post you can use the original bolt , i bought a unit from ctc in china it came with its own mounting stud that was larger than the one on the 320 .
I just made a tee bolt for one end and fitted it back together , not hard to do and works well .

The  cross/ long feed power feed lever has its own detent system built in but became sloppy , this meant finding neutral was finicky .
You could use a movable stop pin also .

Considering what most people want for a second hand lathe which is usually stuffed you can get a new unit .
I know that there are horror stories out there   some are true many are made up .
To buy a decent myford , boxford , hercus or similar is going to set you back a couple of grand anyhow then you have to fix whatever is wrong with it, with the new one from H&F you get warranty and back up .
You could ask if they do pre pick up inspection  so you are ensured of getting a good one ?


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks Wizard69.  Good points confirming some of my research and some new stuff i hadnt been aware of or thought of.

This "zeroing in" on the right sized lathe is tricky.   

I keep starting out at an SC4 then next thing i know i'm lusting after an AL-960B.  I probably need to stand beside some of this stuff to really appreciate siE and the amount of space they will take.

On the second hand front I still have a number of automatic alerts on TradeMe (NZs version of eBay or Craigs Lists).  But my issue there is i wouldnt know a reasonable deal v's a lemon. At least if i get new i have a retailer to hold to account.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

XD351 said:


> To buy a decent myford , boxford , hercus or similar is going to set you back a couple of grand anyhow then you have to fix whatever is wrong with it, ****


 
What utter rubbish. Sorry, Sir- but it is.

In January I saw local advert for a little Myford ML10- when I was about to go to buy something 'Far Eastern' at the London Show.

What I got was rather surprising- for £550. I got the classic machine which used to be supplied with a faceplate and a hard and soft centre plus the 'cogs'. None of this usually useless 3 jaw chuck thing that is a tempter sold by people who have never used a lathe anyway. So this little thing had one. Quite decent one and it also had a 4 jaw independent chuck and a catchplate too. There was a several drill chucks and a rotating centre and a number of centres and 1 and 2MT blanks. To add to the interest, I got a vice, an angle plate and a fixed vertical slide. Then came the 'goodies'. There was a Potts milling spindle which few understand but the usual going price is about £400 to the average watch and clock guy. Again, I got a Cleeve swing tool. The earlier one- not the retracting one advertised by Hemingwaykits today. In addition was a rear parting tool. Not exactly my idea of an answer to a Maiden's Prayer but OK. There was a huge assortment of hss and carbide tooling. I've enough but so what?
What fooled me was a quick change tool holder and bits. Unfortunately, it seemed that it had been a bad buy because the tool height was 1/8th out 
but heigh ho!

Then I got lost. The Bradley book and the official manual came. There were alterations. The dials had been changed from the rather miserable zinc ones to being able to adjust. Then the leadscrew had a dog clutch which doesn't come with the lathe from the factory. Nice though.
Then came a broken but possibly repairable change gear mechanism. It was made- I've just found out by a bloke called Dave Noble. Oh, I forgot the fixed and running steadies. Silly me.

In another box is a set of die holders and sweep face cutters The latter little goodies are like hen's teeth.

Not bad for half a grand?

Norman


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## rodw

The AL320G gear lever is a bit of a worry as it is easy to pull it into gear instead of neutral. All I can say you learn the right touch very quickly!
I have not had any real issues with the tailstock alignment.

As far as fitting another toolpost, its easy as. You just need to make a female bolt.  See this thread http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=20078

For some reason H&F suggest a different toolpost which is way harder to fit than the BXA which they also sell.

I will say there is no comparison between using a light weight machine vs a heavy lathe following this purchase. With coolant and carbide tooling, I have no issues parting off aluminium at 1600 rpm.. You tend to stall the machine before you get any chatter.


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## Blogwitch

Norman,

What you have to realise is that the member is from NZ, and I think good quality, good condition and fully tooled second hand old styled machines will be few and far between.

OK in this country if you pick up a cheapo Myford in need of work, you can easily get the bits, but over there, I very much doubt it.

I expect in 50 years time, they will all be saying 'pick up a good used Chinese machine, as those being made in Tasmania now are no use at all'.

Sorry if I have offended anyone in Tasmania.

I have been following the rise and teething problems that far eastern machines have gone through for the last 20 to 25 years, to a point, where today, I wouldn't have a Myford if they wanted to give it to me, I will choose far eastern machines every time.

John


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## goldstar31

John
I'm fully aware of where the poster is situated. Years and years ago I posted in Model Engineer how I had done up a worn out Myford ML7 with nothing initially more than Blancharding the top. The cost, I believe was minimal.

Our poster claims that he has read much in the MEWs and I did exactly the same- this evening. Restoring a flat bed lathe is a pretty straight forward business and perhaps getting feed screws and whatever are available through RDG.

Myford used to claim that a Myford could be reconditioned 6 times before scrapping. My ancient  Super 7B is running on Turcite which is internationally available. It was with this background that I reflected my experiences( plural) 

What our individual choices in machine tools is immaterial. All that I expressed here and in the past may well be mine but it has been essentially practical and possible for a beginner to emulate. I did my homework before writing and bore in mind that two guys living 'Down under' had Myford lathes.  One was Neville Shute Norway aka Neville Shute in Oz and the other was Jack Radford in Timaru, New Zealand. 

I hope that this clears a bit  of the matter

Regards


Norman


----------



## Wizard69

joco-nz said:


> Thanks Wizard69.  Good points confirming some of my research and some new stuff i hadnt been aware of or thought of.
> 
> 
> 
> This "zeroing in" on the right sized lathe is tricky.


This is certainly the hardest part of the buying decision.  You need to figure out what is right for you.   Like I said I've seen some guys to some amazing work at the model engineering shows using Sherline or Tiag sized machines.  This of course wouldn't suit everybody.   

What you will want to avoid is doing what I did and buy a lathe because it was easy to get into the shop.  In retrospect it is just a bad way to decide upon machinery size.  


> I keep starting out at an SC4 then next thing i know i'm lusting after an AL-960B.  I probably need to stand beside some of this stuff to really appreciate siE and the amount of space they will take.


Shop space is a legitimate issue when buying a machine.  Some times it makes more sense to buy a bigger lathe and put off a mill until more room can be had.  Remember for years, probably decades, model engineers often only had a lathe to work with, maybe a drill press 


> On the second hand front I still have a number of automatic alerts on TradeMe (NZs version of eBay or Craigs Lists).  But my issue there is i wouldnt know a reasonable deal v's a lemon. At least if i get new i have a retailer to hold to account.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> J.




There are some awfully good deals to be had on used machinery though!   I've missed out on more than one, being late to a sale or whatever.   The real problem here isn't the condition of the lathe but rather being in position so to speak. It can be very frustrating to mis these opportunities.   

The classic example here is me working the night shift and planning on hitting an estate sale early in the morning after leaving work.   The estate wasn't far from the plant so I drove over and knew immediately upon arrival that I had missed out on something good.  I knew this based in the number of pickup trucks at the sale.   In any event looked the house over and it turns out the guy that died was a tool and die maker and had a rather densely packed cellar full of tools.   Almost all of them sold before I arrived at very good prices.   One of those items was a very nicely equipped Southbend lathe.    The moral of the story is the early bird gets the worm.  

The bargains are out there!


As for the risk of a lemon that exists with used as well as Chinese imports.   In the used realm it might help to get my n contact with a local that knows machinery to give the machine Once over.   Not every defect will be caught but a real lemon will stand out.


----------



## XD351

goldstar31 said:


> What utter rubbish. Sorry, Sir- but it is.
> 
> In January I saw local advert for a little Myford ML10- when I was about to go to buy something 'Far Eastern' at the London Show.
> 
> What I got was rather surprising- for £550. I got the classic machine which used to be supplied with a faceplate and a hard and soft centre plus the 'cogs'. None of this usually useless 3 jaw chuck thing that is a tempter sold by people who have never used a lathe anyway. So this little thing had one. Quite decent one and it also had a 4 jaw independent chuck and a catchplate too. There was a several drill chucks and a rotating centre and a number of centres and 1 and 2MT blanks. To add to the interest, I got a vice, an angle plate and a fixed vertical slide. Then came the 'goodies'. There was a Potts milling spindle which few understand but the usual going price is about £400 to the average watch and clock guy. Again, I got a Cleeve swing tool. The earlier one- not the retracting one advertised by Hemingwaykits today. In addition was a rear parting tool. Not exactly my idea of an answer to a Maiden's Prayer but OK. There was a huge assortment of hss and carbide tooling. I've enough but so what?
> What fooled me was a quick change tool holder and bits. Unfortunately, it seemed that it had been a bad buy because the tool height was 1/8th out
> but heigh ho!
> 
> Then I got lost. The Bradley book and the official manual came. There were alterations. The dials had been changed from the rather miserable zinc ones to being able to adjust. Then the leadscrew had a dog clutch which doesn't come with the lathe from the factory. Nice though.
> Then came a broken but possibly repairable change gear mechanism. It was made- I've just found out by a bloke called Dave Noble. Oh, I forgot the fixed and running steadies. Silly me.
> 
> In another box is a set of die holders and sweep face cutters The latter little goodies are like hen's teeth.
> 
> Not bad for half a grand?
> 
> Norman




Ok  , there is a serious difference in exchange rate between the pound and Aussie dollar the NZ dollar is even worse £ 500 is around $900 au . Good Myford lathes are not exactly thick on the ground in Australia let alone in New Zealand and usually any you find are either flogged out or the owner knows the unit is good so wants top dollar .
I have seen ml10 lathes on eBay fetch $1500 au , most of the stuff that turns up is junk or has been sitting in a shed or barn and rusted to a point it is near unrecognisable.Second hand retailers of machinery pretty much disappeared long ago in Australia , Hare and forbes used to be one . We don't have model exhibitions of the caliber that the UK enjoy unfortunately.
I would love a good Myford ,Boxford or Hercus but i got sick of looking and when i did find something i thought could be repairable with minimal work it was either interstate and freight was a killer or was it bidded beyond what i thought a reasonable price.
Last year a few Hercus  260 lathes appeared on eBay all three of them from a school or college . all 415 v three ph they went for over a grand each and one bidder bought all three , they were not exactly immaculate ,none had change gears  and various parts were missing  or broken .
Then there is the issue of parts ,if they have to come from overseas there is the cost of freight etc  if you can find them that is and as the Australian made lathes stop being made long ago if you're  very very lucky you may find NOS but it will cost $$$ .
Please understand Sir the used machinery scene out here in the Colonies is vastly different to the UK and USA especially for machines that are of a size that a model engineer would use .


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## goldstar31

Clears aged throat

A few days ago, I was having dinner in Hong Kong with friends before going out to Fiji. I'm pretty well 'au fait' with prices.

Again, I still have Oz and Kiwi connections. Whatever is said, it is only a day's flying away. Knackering, jet lag and whatever and probably only the price of a lathe - for us poor Pommie bastards.

However, despite the fact that I 'retired' some 31 years ago, I'm still 'with it'- or so people say.

What has to be said is that using old worn out machines comes as no surprise and if there is financial difficulties- a worn out machine can be reconditioned. 

Rust can be cleaned whilst dimensional in -accuracy can be compensated for.  If the maximum length that needs to be machined is a mere 2" or 5mm, that is all that is needed. to be reasonably used.

Am I right? The usual worn part of many so called worn out lathes is- 6" from the chuck.  Now that decent filled epoxies are available, that problem- which beset us old timers- is no longer present.

Cheers

Norman


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## joco-nz

Gents.  I can confirm there have been and continue to be a good trickle of Myfords and the odd Colchester appearing second hand on NZ's TradeMe. For anything not a nice red colour all over the non painted parts they typically go for a healthy NZD2,000 odd. I have seen a good number of the nice examples going for around the NZD 2,500.  Some of the larger stuff climbs into the NZD 4,000+ mark. You can get things cheaper and of course those items are usually a healthy reddy rusty colour, or have bits missing etc etc.  Can they be brought up to spec? In most cases I suspect almost certainly.  Do I have the skills, experience and confidence to do so? Ummm No.  Not yet.  Maybe in time I will feel confident enough to tackle such a project. Heck in time I HOPE to be looking to take on something like that.  I think restoring a classic or vintage lathe could be a heap of fun. (says he ignoring the health of his bank balance).

As is often the case there are other challenges in this second hand market game. Many are in locations that are a minimum 3hr drive (6hr round trip) or worse 7hrs one way, which becomes a bit of a challenge with work and family commitments. And I struggle with catching a plane to see a lathe that I might not like, or even miss out on the bidding. The few that I would have liked to see were at the other end of the country or sold before a weekend came by or I just plain missed seeing them advertised until too late.
As has been noted, the early bird does in indeed get the worm.  But I'm okay with that.  I'm working within my constraints.

Cheers,
J.


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## Auskart

Do yourself a favor and try and get a lathe with at least a 38mm spindle bore (AL320), believe me you will kick yourself if you don't.:fan:

Give your local High School and tech colleges a call, sometimes they sell of surplus lathes and equipment.


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## rodw

Personally,  I am in the Buy new gear camp. I started with a used lathe which helped me understand that I wanted. Advice to buy used old iron isn't relevant in this country and probably for our  NZ neighbours. Every time I buy something used, I end up spending more getting it up to speed the way I want. We have good trade connections with Asia which is a lot closer to us than our US and UK friends so the odds favour new chinese gear.

We were talking about this the other day at work. There are any number of lathes languishing in workshops around the country that are bigger than we need at home. But the point is you can buy them for $500 to $1000. People buy them and think they have a bargain until they realise there is no tooling and then find out how much it costs to get them set up. They probably need 20mm tools so it adds up quickly. The workshop accross the road from us bought one home exactly like this. It came with one QCTP adapter so they probably  are up for another $1k for tool holders alone. I felt sorry for them and sold them a spare chuck I had at home for $50... their first tool.

As said by others grab the AL320G if you can afford it and start making some parts. Don't get the matching stand, make your own and you'll be fine.  Why do I say that?...


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## rodw

Personally,  I am in the Buy new gear camp. I started with a used lathe which helped me understand that I wanted. Advice to buy used old iron isn't relevant in this country and probably for our  NZ neighbours. Every time I buy something used, I end up spending more getting it up to speed the way I want. We have good trade connections with Asia which is a lot closer to us than our US and UK friends so the odds favour new chinese gear.

We were talking about this the other day at work. There are any number of lathes languishing in workshops around the country that are bigger than we need at home. But the point is you can buy them for $500 to $1000. People buy them and think they have a bargain until they realise there is no tooling and then find out how much it costs to get them set up. They probably need 20mm tools so it adds up quickly. The workshop accross the road from us bought one home exactly like this. It came with one QCTP adapter so they probably  are up for another $1k for tool holders alone. I felt sorry for them and sold them a spare chuck I had at home for $50... their first tool.

As said by others grab the AL320G if you can afford it and start making some parts. Don't get the matching stand, make your own and you'll be fine.  Why do I say that?...


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## joco-nz

Rod - i'm definately heading the AL-320G way.  I believe i have the space and it fits within budget with a healthy tools allowance after that.  Although I do want to make as much tooling as I can. My self imposed apprenticeship if you will. Plus i just like making stuff.  No matter what "stuff" is.  8)

Heh - custom stand, wonder where that came from.  

Plan is to create this style stand (per your Shed thread).





Looks like Machinery House have the 3 draw units with a solid weight rating: https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/T701

I can get slightly cheaper units with more draws from bunnings, just not sure how robust they are.  Plan to have a look in the weekend.

Do you happen to have key dimensions on the AL-320G?  The manual is crap and does not give any info on (that I can find) length, width, mounting hole layout or size.  Want to start modeling this table in CAD but cant be bothered starting with limited ro poor data.

Cheers,
J.


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## XD351

goldstar31 said:


> Clears aged throat
> 
> A few days ago, I was having dinner in Hong Kong with friends before going out to Fiji. I'm pretty well 'au fait' with prices.
> 
> Again, I still have Oz and Kiwi connections. Whatever is said, it is only a day's flying away. Knackering, jet lag and whatever and probably only the price of a lathe - for us poor Pommie bastards.
> 
> However, despite the fact that I 'retired' some 31 years ago, I'm still 'with it'- or so people say.
> 
> What has to be said is that using old worn out machines comes as no surprise and if there is financial difficulties- a worn out machine can be reconditioned.
> 
> Rust can be cleaned whilst dimensional in -accuracy can be compensated for.  If the maximum length that needs to be machined is a mere 2" or 5mm, that is all that is needed. to be reasonably used.
> 
> Am I right? The usual worn part of many so called worn out lathes is- 6" from the chuck.  Now that decent filled epoxies are available, that problem- which beset us old timers- is no longer present.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Norman




Yes machines can be reconditioned but once again there are issues :
Cost of regrinding the bed /saddle and fitting turcite strips , this would cost more than the machine would ever be worth and it is not something that can be done at home so you are at the mercy of the shop that does this type of work.
Spindle bearings wear and can be difficult to fix especially for someone with little or no experience , once again you can get a machine reconditioning shop to do it but that cost thing keeps popping up .
About 15 years ago i was offered a cincinatti  lathe to play with , i knew  the bed had some wear so i inquired about a regrind  for the bed .
From memory it was more than my AL50 lathe cost new - around a grand and that depended on how much they had to grind off the bed and saddle then there was the refitting etc , it doesn't take much to drain a couple of grand out of ones bank account doing this as the labour costs here are pretty scary !
Unless the person gets a kick out of fixing old machines and knows exactly what to look for i would generally point the person towards a new unit or next best thing one from a school or training institute as they generally get little use. They usually have some sort of damage to the bed under the chuck  from dropped chucks or chuck keys or the end of the compound slide   As they tend to get driven into a revolving chuck by some kid .
If you can live with some scars sometimes they can be a good buy , as can be lathes from tool rooms where a toolmaker has looked after it , sometimes these sit idle for long periods and have little wear .


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## goldstar31

In my earlier posting, I reconditioned a friend's ML7 for- I think £25 or £50. The bed had about 6thous removed and I cleaned up the inner saddle and in my spare evenings, had the thing running in a week.  This ties in with the late David Lammas who did much the same using a piece of plate glass and a scraper made from a file and tempered in the deep freeze. the account is in ME some where.

It was a ML2 or 4- I forget but I did something similar to another ML2 which had made Northumbrian small pipes. 

So far, the cost is trifling and with tongue in cheek, a tin of engineer's blue the only additional outlay.

With advancing age and very demanding family commitments -which have yet to be resolved, I got the bed of my Myford Super7 slideways ground- at the price quoted by the then Myford factory for £200. The  under saddle was worn and for an additional £50, the Turcite was added. 

Today, for a bit of occupational therapy, I've been Mig/Mag welding. I wanted a break from the continuing 'Sole executor, sole beneficiary ' lark following the death of my wife in September last.

Incidentally, I'm not an engineer or whatever and still quite capable of doing the simpler tasks which arise in comparison to the real demands of life.

That is what I achieved and regarded it at no great thing to get overly troubled. It's a hobby- no more.

Regards

Norman


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## joco-nz

Thanks for the advice Norman.  Its good to know that the restoration of classic iron can be achieved with hand techniques.

On the grinding front I have my doubts that I will not manage to get ways reground in NZ for around NZD400.  My instincts tell my i wouldnt see much if any change from NZD1,000.  But perhaps I'm being a bit pessimistic.

I had a bit of hunt about through the MEW index for restoration projects on lathes and didnt have much luck.  I guess that those articles are in ME which I dont have a subscription to.

Yes its a hobby and one I am chomping at the bit to get into properly. 

Cheers,
J.


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## goldstar31

Greetings J.
The short answer is Yes and No so might I explain? There are quite a few articles in MEW( which I have on HD) but I recall a never ending series in Model Engineer over the centuries. I have only a few. 

Surprisingly, this topic comes up here- on the hour and half hour and someone kindly suggested to readers sources of information such as Machine Tool Reconditioning by Connolly and one on alignment of tools by Georg Schlesinger. Both are invaluable as they make the distinction between those who think that they are experts and those who are. Regardless of whether you will eventually buy new or put up with old, both books are worth downloading and keeping on your 'bookshelf' 

Connolly  deals with a classic situation where a worn machine tool is restored by machining the worn parts and then scraping them. Not lapping as you mentioned earlier. One scrapes to a known reference . None of this silly lark of lapping to make things curved again!

The only lapping is the three surface plates to create references . Have I done it? NO, life is too short but one should understand the principles.

However since Connolly, two things have happened. Let me try to explain. A decent slideways grinder today will create perfectly acceptable machine tools. A good machine shop will still have guys who can still scrape. The two things do go together!

However the days of the old guys with glasses like the bottoms of Newcastle Brown Ale bottles and a left arm caked in scraped cast iron dust are over and one can have the choice of building up worn parts by either Turcite sheet or gooey plastics such as Devcon. 
Somewhere there is a fine article in Model Engineer about the use of materials such as Devcon. Sadly, I had to destroy much of earlier material but hopefully, some reader will read this and help. 

Wandering a bit, might I correct the misconception about worn out Myfords 7 series?  Actually, number 4 shear is generally unworn. True it is only fine machined but it is true enough for most of us. It means that once the top of the bed is cheaply Blancharded, the worn No1 shear can  be built up with a filled with metal epoxy. Alignment with the No4 takes place easily. In other words, you are able to tackle a Myford basket case cheaply and quickly- using home tooling.

Blancharding might be only one of many techniques but suffice to say that -clears throat again- the firm went bust and we were shareholders!

Whatever the outcome, being able to understand how machine tools are constructed and measured is invaluable to know. You might make from castings something like a Stent tool and cutter grinder or even from welded steel fabrications. Contrary to all the so called experts, mine works. No, I bought it but made an earlier cast iron one.

Hope this helps. Keep in touch. 

Norman


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Heh - custom stand, wonder where that came from.
> 
> Plan is to create this style stand (per your Shed thread).
> 
> J.



Yes, that pic posted after my lathe fell over was the motivation to build my stand.





I already had one of the tool chests so I bought another matching one. Any of the stackable tool chest drawers would work. The drawers have worked out really well. The sample stand is larger than the AL320G and I could not extend the footprint so I decided to use 2 chests on one side and a matching toolbox with the lid removed on the other side. This left room for the coolant and to this day, I have not built the drawer for stock which should sit behind the checkerplate. One day.


Sorry, I don't have any dimensions of the mounting positions. My lathe drip tray is 1230 x 450mm and the stand is 1280 x 450mm which was determined by the dimensions of the drawers and toolbox. Making it all work neatly proved quite a jigsaw puzzle. Frame is 35 x 65mm RHS and 35mm SHS legs. 

This pic shows the frame of the stand. You can see the mounting rails have to be  higher than the frame due to the drip tray design. 





Good luck with it!


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## joco-nz

Rod - what is the thickness on that steel? 4mm?


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## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Rod - what is the thickness on that steel? 4mm?



3mm. I think the flat bar was  5mm.  Thers is not that much weight. 280 kg bare so there is only about 140 kg per rail


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## joco-nz

Norman - thanks for the book references.  I'm hunting them down.  I'm almost certainly at information overload point but they will get a read once I get myself some kit and move beyond this book learning business.  

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Norman - thanks for the book references. I'm hunting them down. I'm almost certainly at information overload point but they will get a read once I get myself some kit and move beyond this book learning business.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


 
Glad to have been some assistance. Obviously, you are moving on to purchase of things. Might I suggest that you fully understand Schlesinger and how to test machine tools for accuracy. He certainly sorted the sheep from the goats. :fanespite the age of the stuff, you should be clear on how tests are or should be conducted. 

Obviously, you will still have constraints on just how much so called disposable income you can use- or dare use! 

Having been retired for longer than I have had to work- I can look at things very coldly and rationally. 31 years of freedom from the tedium of work and enjoy that freedom is not in any book as far as I know!

Apologies for the exuberance of my own verbosity:hDe:

Norman


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## imagineering

Hi James,

Here are the specs for the AL320-G from Machinery House;
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L141

Here's the AL-336D which a couple of us have;
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L682D

Get hold of Bruce and we can set you up for a couple of visits to our respective Workshops. Our Engineering Society has an eclectic mix of Members interested in; Model Rail, Live Steam, Clock-making, Traction Engines, CNC Router & Mills, Tool-making & general faffing about in Workshops.

Murray McKenzie
Committee
Hutt Valley Model Engineering Soc.


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## joco-nz

Thanks Murray.   While I love the look of the 336 I think dang near 600kg of iron for a first late is probably a little extreme.  The 280kg for the 320G is having me think hard about how to manoeuvre it.

I will look to hook up with Bruce at some point in the new week or so since he's so close to home.   I'm quite keen to have a look at his CNC mill. Having built an extrusion 3D Printer (Prusa2 model) and little CNC PCB isolation mill I'm quite interested in that space.

Oh, enjoyed the video on Wednesday.  That chap had just WAAY to much spare time. 3.5 years 7 days a week on your hobby sheesh!! No wonder they achieved so much detail.  And the hand rails, don't forget the hand rails! :big:

Cheers,
James.


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## imagineering

joco-nz said:


> I will look to hook up with Bruce at some point in the new week or so since he's so close to home.   I'm quite keen to have a look at his CNC mill.
> .




Haha, Bruce built the Parts for his CNC Mill on my CNC Mill :thumbup:
I've just started a new job, was too knackered to go on Wednesday Evening. It's good that you got there and met a few of the Guys.
I'm rostered on Track Duty on the 14th. Come on out, introduce yourself and have a play on a Loco.

Murray.


Save​


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## joco-nz

So, having pretty much decided that the AL-320G will be the lathe of choice. Even though i keep looking at the AL-960B from Taiwan cose the finish on it looks really good and its only about 450kg.  :wall:

One thing i notice on these Hafco machines in this $3k plus price point is the cross slide has no t-slots. Probably cose they expect you to have a mill.

Buying into this sized lathe means i need to save a bit longer for a mill, or more accurately a mill/drill.

Thus the question to the collective is does anyone have any experience with milling on these sized/style lathes that have no t-slots? If so how did you solve the work holding problem with no t-slots?

Or am I being a plonker with this question and if you have this sized lathe you shouldn't be mucking about trying to do simple milling opeartions on it and should break the rust on ye olde wallet hinges and get a sodding mill. :rant:

Sorry, been looking for any excuse to use previous emogi.  Its just too cool.  ;D

Cheers,
James.


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## Blogwitch

Actually James, you are quite correct in querying whether it has a t-slotted slide.

For between centre boring, it really is a must, and because mine doesn't have one, it has stopped me machining a large cylinder casting for a while now. I can do it on my mill, but it means using a boring bar held at one end and it is almost 12" long, using my right angled head. Not a solution that guarantees success.

But all is not lost. 
Myself, I am fitting a cast iron removable slotted table to the top of my cross slide for when it is really needed. They are readily available at very reasonable costs, just need modding to fit your particular machine, or maybe there is enough meat on your cross slide to machine in some small t-slots. But you must be careful that you can still reach centre on the job with the extra thickness of the sub table.

John


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## joco-nz

John - I had been wondering if the removable table was the solution. I'm not too keen on the thought of hacking t-slots into the original cross slide.   But adding a table will reduce the max swing over the slide.  I guess that is better than no option to mount on the cross slide at all.

Cheers,
J.


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## goldstar31

My sub table on a long forgotten 920( actually an Axminster 9180) was peppered  with tapped holes to hold the old bits from a Zyto, a Myford ML7, a Super7 and I presume will increase from addition of the 'new' Myford ML10.

Thinks?  If I flogged some of them But then H.M. Revenue and Customs would  want their share after I head for the local rubbish burning department for the statutory 9 minutes. 

Cheers

Norman


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## joco-nz

Another approach to the t-slot problem could be per this page:
http://www.wrathall.com/Interests/machining/T-slot_cross_slide1.htm

Of course such a solution will need some kind soul with a mill to assist since it needs a mill to cut angles, steps, drill holes and counter sink various fasteners.

Cheers,
James.


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## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> Of course such a solution will need some kind soul with a mill to assist since it needs a mill to cut angles, steps, drill holes and counter sink various fasteners.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.



I'm sure we could find a "kind soul" - may need to buy some new tooling though - ohhhhh new tooling :thumbup:woohoo1

Cheers

Bruce


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## goldstar31

James


You have a PM

N


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## joco-nz

Norman - not sure how things work in Old Blighty but sale of something that is "second hand goods" if not done in a manner to suggest it is part of your normal income generation isn't typically taxable.


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## joco-nz

Bruce - yeah NEW TOOLS!  And I'm sure beer or similar beverage of the kind souls preference can be procured to support the cause.

But got to sort this blasted garage out so I have ROOM for the soon to be procured lathe.


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## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Another approach to the t-slot problem could be per this page:
> http://www.wrathall.com/Interests/machining/T-slot_cross_slide1.htm
> 
> Of course such a solution will need some kind soul with a mill to assist since it needs a mill to cut angles, steps, drill holes and counter sink various fasteners.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


 
Actually 'Cleeve' made his tooling on the lathe.- not on a mill. He did make a drilling machine and a double ended grinder but no mill.

He made his own gears with a two ended cutter. My regret is that I never met him. I suspect that he wasn't an engineer either but could be wrong for once. 

His little lathe- had two electric motors and was belt driven


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## joco-nz

Norman - did Cleeve have any publications or articles on what he did and probably more importantly how he did it? Apologies if you have already provided any relevant references.

Cheers,
James.


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## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> Norman - did Cleeve have any publications or articles on what he did and probably more importantly how he did it? Apologies if you have already provided any relevant references.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


Hi James

I do not see this as a show stopper. I have made 4 engines without needing to mount any part on the cross slide. Not saying it is not a handy feature back not a necessary one

Cheers
Bruce


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## bruedney

Hi James

I do not see this as a show stopper. I have made 4 engines without needing to mount any part on the cross slide. Not saying it is not a handy feature back not a necessary one

Cheers
Bruce


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## joco-nz

Bruce - agree it's not a show stopper.  But I like handy features so if I can get handy features I tend to get them. Equaly if i have to delay a mill purchase due to "lathe over eating", then having this sort of setup to allow easy mouning of a lathe milling attachment could be a good option.

We shall see.   I might well end up doing what Rod did and do an AL-320G and SX3 combo.  Although the number of BF20L CNC conversions I have read about look rather appealing as well.

Cheers,
James.


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## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Norman - did Cleeve have any publications or articles on what he did and probably more importantly how he did it? Apologies if you have already provided any relevant references.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


 
There is his posthumous book- Screwcutting in the Lathe.
Again, C published in Model Engineer, in Engineering in Miniature, and (?) Practical Mechanics.

So apart from his book and what might appear from copyright sources- the square root of bugger all, it is probably lost. Obviously, I recall much-can't publish.

Cheers

N


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## Blogwitch

Pray tell me Bruce,
How would you go about boring the cylinder on this little job? 
It is no use quoting that you have never needed T-slots, most probably because what you have already done on your lathe are fiddly little jobs compared to this one. 
It is when something out of the ordinary comes along that makes you think outside of the box, and ways to get around it.
For the cost of these mods, it isn't worth waiting around until a Sunday, when everywhere is closed, you try to get your machine prepared for all and sundry.

That is why, over the years, I have been doing all sorts of usually low cost mods to my machinery, it will allow me to either do my machining better, faster or more accurately, allowing me to carry out jobs on my machine that it wasn't supposed to be capable of doing in the first place.







The cylinder casting is over 8" long.

I am one of the lucky ones who has a right angle head for my mill, so can use items such as a long boring bar in a horizontal orientation, but it isn't an ideal situation because of boring bar deflection, even in this size.






Or how do I bore this complicated casting I had made to fit around the above cylinder? You can't just wack it into your 4 jaw and hope for the best, you would most probably end up with a big 'B' in the middle of your forehead.







Now that is where a T-slotted cross slide comes into it's own. If you have a bed long enough, boring between centres has been around for well over 100 years, maybe 200. A well tried and trusted method.

Buying any machine tool is a compromise, it will never have everything you want included in it's specs. So you have to look at ways of overcoming those limitations, and in both James' and my situation, a T-slotted top plate should solve the problem, if there are no further complications. That is why I have bought two different top plates for mine, to allow me to choose whichever one suits the job the best. Smaller t-slots in a thinner plate to hold fairly lightweight items or to overcome height problems, or a heavyweight plate for those muscle bound needs.

John


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## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> There is his posthumous book- Screwcutting in the Lathe.
> Again, C published in Model Engineer, in Engineering in Miniature, and (?) Practical Mechanics.
> 
> So apart from his book and what might appear from copyright sources- the square root of bugger all, it is probably lost. Obviously, I recall much-can't publish.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> N



Thanks Norman.  I have the Workshop Series #3 "Screw Cutting in the Lathe".  I'll see what results I get in finding some of his other material.  I tend to look to collect useful material like this.


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## goldstar31

In Cleeve's book, you will see a very different to what was what I got- and everyone else if the truth be told!

Actually, he bought only part of a Myford ML7. Don't ask how but he did. In ME Volume 113( I think) he describes using two motors, one a full HP and perhaps a 1/3rd. Instead of a top heavy and unstable machine with  the motor in a daft place, he used the tested overhead system of fast and loose pulleys. No VFD's and conversion to 3 phase control in those days. However, this 'toy' lathe earned him a living by making special order screws and nuts when he was made redundant. Bring yourself into the 21st Century and ask which machine does this. You are going to buy a copy lathe that questions were being asked when similar lathes were released to Joe Public from American LeaseLend after WW2. The Far East is flogging to you poor people such. Great- I'm in the Chinese circuit but fun in old age!

So Cleeve was no different to a lot of people and sheared the weak tee slots on his saddle. Mine on my second hand lathe were warped!
So he asked Myford to make him a steel one as a replacement. Again, your guess is as good as mine- but he did. Look at the book, it isn't Myford Myford!  Again, he made a set of steadies that were not the three legged, bad to adjust 'Myford affairs'. They were capable of heavy cuts that came from a full horse power churning out!  Again, he beefed up the Glacier bearings in the headstock with a supplementary fixed steady. This lathe was going to be built like a brick sh1t house. 

Moving on, he got fed up with the time to bore holes and produced the swing tool holder. Despite the more recent assertions of a full patent, this is quite untrue but he simply couldn't afford to continue the administration costs. It lapsed but the concept was extended to both ordinary lathe boring but ordinary turning- with two tool posts and then by making the pivot eccentric could do retracting in screwcutting.  This was all from chunks of steel fastened with home made bolts.

Time for a coffee, time to sort out Spanish Income Tax and Spanish sales before discussing farm houses in the Dordogne, France.

You get the idea? Rather more than most people know.

Cheers

Norman


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## rodw

Just a few observations from somebody who went through the same agonising decision making process.

If you want T slots. get the CQ6128 in your shortlist in the first post. I considered it but decided support would be suspect. Its smaller than the AL320G.
Hare and Forbes sell a vertical milling slide which you could probably fit to the AL320G. I thought about this but bought the mill instead. It's pretty small.
Don't forget that the AL320G also comes with a faceplate and I've seen a Youtube video of a guy boring a 500cc motor bike motor on a similar sized lathe using a fixture he made to hold the cylinder on the faceplate.

The BXA QCTP starter kit I have fitted to my lathe comes with a 25mm boring bar holder that will easily hold a boring bar long enough to bore  8" without worrying about deflection. The one I purchased for this holder only gives me about 7" but longer ones are available. If I wanted to go longer, I'd just grab a piece of 25mm ground bar and make my own. This is a project I've considered so I can bore out the spindle to a true 38mm as its a bit undersize in the centre (like most of the Chinese lathes).

I think it would be possible to make a tslot holder fairly easily and attach it to the cross slide without interfering with the toolpost. I'd probably use cast iron and ensure it also did away with the tinfoil cover at the rear of the cross slide. But you probably need a mill to make it....

I will say that the decision making process became a lot easier once I decided to buy a mill at the same time instead of later.


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## goldstar31

In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face  plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools. QCTP is an accessory designed primarily for discussion groups and 'people who are incapable of cutting up drinks cans to make shims'.  Once you have cut the shims, you glue the appropriate number under the lathe tool.
But you all do this as a matter of normal machining practice - clears throat and chuckles hysterically. 

So in the real world, I'm sorted out with the sale of a Spanish house( when miracles happen and pigs fly) and have sorted out a trip to France and bought a new 'handy' suitable for dumb fingered old farts and told my son that I have spent £3.5K on  a pair of hearing aids to avoid me continuing as Quasimodo for the rest of my natural puff.

All go at the Norman castle


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## Wizard69

joco-nz said:


> Thanks Murray.   While I love the look of the 336 I think dang near 600kg of iron for a first late is probably a little extreme.  The 280kg for the 320G is having me think hard about how to manoeuvre it.


It depends of course upon what you want to do but in my case buying based on weight was a bad thing to do.   Low weight puts real limits on the machines physical size and mass itself comes in handy in a lot of turning situations.    If you can say for certainty that you can get by with a lathe of X x XX size then a light machine might be a good choice.   Otherwise You may be better off considering hiring the help required to move a bigger lathe into position.  

I suspect that almost everyone has run into a situation where a larger lathe would make possible an operation or at least make it easier to deal with.   There is no ultimate lathe size and frankly for some people a lathe can easily be too big.   As I've said I've seen some amazing things done on Sherline and Taig lathes at model engineering meets.  


> I will look to hook up with Bruce at some point in the new week or so since he's so close to home.   I'm quite keen to have a look at his CNC mill. Having built an extrusion 3D Printer (Prusa2 model) and little CNC PCB isolation mill I'm quite interested in that space.


CNC is really cool tech now that it is affordable with multiple ways to implement.  For somebody starting out, especially with a mill, it can actually save you some money in hardware purchases or builds.  Things like rotary tables are no longer needed or at least the need is greatly reduced.   The only real problem is that you need to develop the programming and design skills to derive the G-Code.  


> Oh, enjoyed the video on Wednesday.  That chap had just WAAY to much spare time. 3.5 years 7 days a week on your hobby sheesh!! No wonder they achieved so much detail.  And the hand rails, don't forget the hand rails! :big:
> 
> Cheers,
> James.




Hey still working for a living here and frankly it sucks!   I long for the day when there are no mortgage payments and one can actually be relaxed and not burned out in his shop.


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## Wizard69

Blogwitch said:


> Actually James, you are quite correct in querying whether it has a t-slotted slide.
> 
> For between centre boring, it really is a must, and because mine doesn't have one, it has stopped me machining a large cylinder casting for a while now. I can do it on my mill, but it means using a boring bar held at one end and it is almost 12" long, using my right angled head. Not a solution that guarantees success.


For something like this you should consider a boring bar support at the other end.   Obviously it can't be a center like you would use in a lathe but rather a bushing that the bar can slide through.  At 12" long such a setup might be more stable than trying to setup a between centers bore on a small lathe.  


> But all is not lost.
> Myself, I am fitting a cast iron removable slotted table to the top of my cross slide for when it is really needed. They are readily available at very reasonable costs, just need modding to fit your particular machine, or maybe there is enough meat on your cross slide to machine in some small t-slots. But you must be careful that you can still reach centre on the job with the extra thickness of the sub table.
> 
> John


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## bruedney

Blogwitch said:


> Pray tell me Bruce,
> How would you go about boring the cylinder on this little job?
> It is no use quoting that you have never needed T-slots, most probably because what you have already done on your lathe are fiddly little jobs compared to this one.
> It is when something out of the ordinary comes along that makes you think outside of the box, and ways to get around it.
> For the cost of these mods, it isn't worth waiting around until a Sunday, when everywhere is closed, you try to get your machine prepared for all and sundry.
> 
> That is why, over the years, I have been doing all sorts of usually low cost mods to my machinery, it will allow me to either do my machining better, faster or more accurately, allowing me to carry out jobs on my machine that it wasn't supposed to be capable of doing in the first place.
> 
> The cylinder casting is over 8" long.
> 
> I am one of the lucky ones who has a right angle head for my mill, so can use items such as a long boring bar in a horizontal orientation, but it isn't an ideal situation because of boring bar deflection, even in this size.
> 
> Or how do I bore this complicated casting I had made to fit around the above cylinder? You can't just wack it into your 4 jaw and hope for the best, you would most probably end up with a big 'B' in the middle of your forehead.
> 
> Now that is where a T-slotted cross slide comes into it's own. If you have a bed long enough, boring between centres has been around for well over 100 years, maybe 200. A well tried and trusted method.
> 
> Buying any machine tool is a compromise, it will never have everything you want included in it's specs. So you have to look at ways of overcoming those limitations, and in both James' and my situation, a T-slotted top plate should solve the problem, if there are no further complications. That is why I have bought two different top plates for mine, to allow me to choose whichever one suits the job the best. Smaller t-slots in a thinner plate to hold fairly lightweight items or to overcome height problems, or a heavyweight plate for those muscle bound needs.
> 
> John



John,

I did not say that it wasn't necessary for some jobs but having spoken to James at our club last week about what he hoped to build I did not feel that a T-Slotted cross slide was a "necessity" but rather a "nice feature if you can get it" at this point in his setting up.

Given that at least two of our club members have the AL 336 lathes (bigger than the AL 320) and they have both built some pretty reasonable sized engines/ Locos without the T Slots, I think James' direction towards the AL320 is well calculated and will work well for his situation.

Bruce


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## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Just a few observations from somebody who went through the same agonising decision making process.
> 
> If you want T slots. get the CQ6128 in your shortlist in the first post. I considered it but decided support would be suspect. Its smaller than the AL320G.
> Hare and Forbes sell a vertical milling slide which you could probably fit to the AL320G. I thought about this but bought the mill instead. It's pretty small.
> Don't forget that the AL320G also comes with a faceplate and I've seen a Youtube video of a guy boring a 500cc motor bike motor on a similar sized lathe using a fixture he made to hold the cylinder on the faceplate.
> 
> The BXA QCTP starter kit I have fitted to my lathe comes with a 25mm boring bar holder that will easily hold a boring bar long enough to bore  8" without worrying about deflection. The one I purchased for this holder only gives me about 7" but longer ones are available. If I wanted to go longer, I'd just grab a piece of 25mm ground bar and make my own. This is a project I've considered so I can bore out the spindle to a true 38mm as its a bit undersize in the centre (like most of the Chinese lathes).
> 
> I think it would be possible to make a tslot holder fairly easily and attach it to the cross slide without interfering with the toolpost. I'd probably use cast iron and ensure it also did away with the tinfoil cover at the rear of the cross slide. But you probably need a mill to make it....
> 
> I will say that the decision making process became a lot easier once I decided to buy a mill at the same time instead of later.



Thanks Rod.  I'm just looking at options and considering what I would do if I need to delay the Mill purchase.  I'm not too inclined to compromise on my lathe choice just because its not got t-slots.   As has been noted no lathe is perfect. So I'm just thinking through options/ideas and using the group as a sounding board.   Heck, if I was going to "compromise" on the current lathe preference I'd probably compromise UP.   I'm sure an AL-336 or AL-960B would look awesome in the garage.    :thumbup:


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## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face  plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools.



Agree, I'm definitely mindful of getting a useful set of standard accessories.  Although I don't tend to see a catch-plate in the mix.  I think the expectation is that you sort out something to deal with that on the face-plate.



> So in the real world, I'm sorted out with the sale of a Spanish house( when miracles happen and pigs fly) and have sorted out a trip to France and bought a new 'handy' suitable for dumb fingered old farts and told my son that I have spent £3.5K on  a pair of hearing aids to avoid me continuing as Quasimodo for the rest of my natural puff.
> 
> All go at the Norman castle



Good to hear things are going "well" on the home front. :thumbup:


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## joco-nz

Wizard69 said:


> It depends of course upon what you want to do but in my case buying based on weight was a bad thing to do.   Low weight puts real limits on the machines physical size and mass itself comes in handy in a lot of turning situations.    If you can say for certainty that you can get by with a lathe of X x XX size then a light machine might be a good choice.   Otherwise You may be better off considering hiring the help required to move a bigger lathe into position.
> 
> I suspect that almost everyone has run into a situation where a larger lathe would make possible an operation or at least make it easier to deal with.   There is no ultimate lathe size and frankly for some people a lathe can easily be too big.   As I've said I've seen some amazing things done on Sherline and Taig lathes at model engineering meets.



I think the 320G will do the business for what I want to get into as well as support a few half formed ideas re building a go-kart.  It's swing is basically the same as the 336, although with the bed gap in use the 336 can go bigger.




> CNC is really cool tech now that it is affordable with multiple ways to implement.  For somebody starting out, especially with a mill, it can actually save you some money in hardware purchases or builds.  Things like rotary tables are no longer needed or at least the need is greatly reduced.   The only real problem is that you need to develop the programming and design skills to derive the G-Code.



The CNC side doesn't worry to much as have had to deal with those challenges on the 3d-printer and the CNC pcb mill.  I've done enough coding for hobby and work reasons over the years to be comfortable.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

Okay, did some "proper" thinking today about garage layout and knocked up this general plan of the garage.  It should give you all a guide as to how much space I have to work with for lathe and mill foot print.   And I need to get my dewalt table saw in there as well. But since that's portable with its own wheeled stand that's much easier to deal with.




So, the initial plans, I'll start to layout lathes etc on this but as you can see I have  about 10msq in a 5x2 strip.



Cheers,
James.


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## Blogwitch

All I could suggest James, after I was confronted with the same problems, look to the walls.

Get as many shelves and racks in there as you can and lay things out logically. 
Put everything for the lathe within easy reach of the lathe, later, when maybe you have a mill, do exactly the same thing. Create machine zones, each with it's own area, just enough to comfortably work in.

Similar to this, bits for the headstock end on the wall around the headstock, chucks underneath, and tailstock bits behind the tailstock, and general lathe stuff on a shelf above.
Little would you believe it, the 'white box' is my assembly 'clean' area,  but if larger areas are needed, I have a plans draw that slides away when not in use, with enough room above it to take small components laid out on the plans.

















John


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## Blogwitch

Bruce,

If you look at my text, I didn't say the lathe NEEDED to have a T-slotted table, and if it didn't have one, there are ways and means by which one could be fitted.

It was your statement that you didn't ever need one that caused me to reply.

After over half a century in this game, I know there are means and ways to hold larger items on a lathe, but one of the easiest and safest methods is to use T-slots.

I have bored out large wooden formers to fit on top of the cross slide before now, and cobbled together an unsafe temporary holding fixture, just to get the job done, and that is where I now draw the line. 
After seeing what has happened around me, I won't go 'unsafe' any more, and don't condone anyone else doing the same thing if they mean to be showing it on a site such as this. It is like showing inexperienced people how to commit suicide by using their machines.

John


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## joco-nz

Blogwitch said:


> All I could suggest James, after I was confronted with the same problems, look to the walls.
> 
> Get as many shelves and racks in there as you can and lay things out logically.
> Put everything for the lathe within easy reach of the lathe, later, when maybe you have a mill, do exactly the same thing. Create machine zones, each with it's own area, just enough to comfortably work in.
> 
> John



John - that's the plan.  I have moved a lot of low usage tools or woodworking tools to the wall on the opposite side of the garage to the bench.  The reason being when I am doing woodwork the car is in the driveway, I have the tablesaw setup and I'm working over that side (mostly).

I'm planning to make stands for the lathe and mill which have integrated tool chests (see stand image earlier in thread) in them so that key tools are located right by the appropriate tool.  I'll also have tooling on peg-board above the bench.  Along with part draws that are hung on the wall.
http://nz.element14.com/raaco/126762/cabinet-organiser-44compartment/dp/1367091

Cheers,
James.


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## Blogwitch

Very nice James.

I have about a dozen of those small parts draws, but they do have a down side.
Because of the small gap above the draw, it is an entry point for swarf and other debris. Keep them well away from your machines.
If I don't go into a draw for a while, the ones closest to my machines, I have to sort through debris before I get down to whatever is in the slide drawer.

I have tried all sorts of new systems, all to no avail, they still get filled up with swarf. Just get used to cleaning them out every so often. The only other way would be to hang a sheet of polythene in front of them. I even tried that, but it stops you getting into the drawers easily.

Have fun

John


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## joco-nz

Possible Lathe and Mill placement.   Assuming a Lathe table of 800mm x 1700mm and Mill table of 800mm x 800mm with a 1200mm walking distance between equipment and workbench.  Machines could be pushed a little more towards the car zone to increase walking clearance.


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## bruedney

Lighting - don't forget lighting 

:thumbup:

Bruce


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## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Lighting - don't forget lighting
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> Bruce



Yup - have dual 1200mm fluorescent fixtures.  One centre of car zone, one directly over lathe position, one over workbench.  Will be adding more over length of workbench as well as getting led or halogen flexible neck work area lights to add to lathe and mill.   That should fix the frequency issue on the fluorescent tubes for rotating parts.

I also have electrical points wired to the ceiling between lathe/mill and at other end of lathe (referenced from insert below) as well as at 4 positions along the length the workbench.  The Lathe and Mill have access to a 15 amp circuit and there is a 15 amp circuit on two of the four bench located points.  The 15amp circuits are to provide flexibility of where I connect my welder.  A nice little BOC Multiprocess unit (MIG/MAG, DC TIG, DC Stick)  http://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/boc-smootharc-multiprocess-175-welder



Alternative layout that brings the machines closer to one of the dual 15amp sockets in the ceiling.


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## rodw

You have more space than me. I've only got a total of 2.4 x 4.8 including all the shelves and benches. Being prepared to spend a bit on storage is the key to making it work in a small space. I spent about $1500 on storage, some of which was in my garden shed to make sure my shed was 100% man cave. 

Also consider where your bandsaw will go.

I have this one. Nice little saw.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/B003

And the mill table travels over it on a custom stand.

After I wore out the smaller bs4. I really wanted this one

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/B006

You can fit it in.... place it so material can go accross your wifes car for those long jobs you get once in a while.


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## rodw

goldstar31 said:


> In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face  plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools. QCTP is an accessory designed primarily for discussion groups and 'people who are incapable of cutting up drinks cans to make shims'.  Once you have cut the shims, you glue the appropriate number under the lathe tool.
> 
> All go at the Norman castle



I tend to agree and wonder if all the hype on the QCTP is worth it. It is certainly very quick with multiple tools at your fingertips. The  glue is a good idea. I knew I did something wrong after I managed to empty and cut up the beer cans.... hacksaw blades and old bandsaw blades are also handy.  Then the QCTP turned up....


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## goldstar31

Yesterday I discovered the offer for sale of a 6 station capstan attachment which the seller had no idea of whether it was from a Myford or not. The price was 'advantageous' as the French say. Whether it becomes mine is anyone's guess but it prompted us to discuss QCTP's. For my sins, I have two. Both fit the Super 7 but both are an 1/8th 'out' for the smaller ML10. As Cousin Rowan- Mr Bean would say- Bugger! Both are hardened and getting an 1/8th off is just that. We both have been- about a bit. He lived next door to Rowan when Rowan ran around in his Mum's Morris Minor.  QCTP's can be a bit 'wobbly'
In local parlance, they rattle around like a pea on a drum! 
Baz's efforts in making several 3 way things follows the designer- the late David Lammas- to have quoted:-
Less danger of accidental injury
Fewer tool shapes do more work
Fouling of workpieces does not occur
Fast interchange of tools
Cheap to use because the simple casting can be machined on the lathe from which it will be used
Because it is cheap, we can afford more than one tool post
- and so on.
If minded, I can litter the workshop with the things because I have a huge chunk of Meehanite which was a rusty marking out table- that cost £3.

But dear old and much lamented Jack Radford toiling his way in Kiwi land thought little of even rigidity of top slides and invented a new casting -to simply dispense with the top slide for most times -apart from screwcutting on an Ash Wednesday.
Cleeve was simpler still and with 4 bits of flat plate made front turrets by bolting them together. The rear turret is made from 3. I've still got it and it fits the Super7. Because there is 'room', it will fit the smaller ML10. It fitted a subtable on a 918- just like that.
What is cheaper and easier?

My thoughts are- Think again! I did- when? Too old to remember but that's life

Norman


----------



## Wizard69

joco-nz said:


> Yup - have dual 1200mm fluorescent fixtures.  One centre of car zone, one directly over lathe position, one over workbench.  Will be adding more over length of workbench as well as getting led or halogen flexible neck work area lights to add to lathe and mill.   That should fix the frequency issue on the fluorescent tubes for rotating parts.
> 
> I also have electrical points wired to the ceiling between lathe/mill and at other end of lathe (referenced from insert below) as well as at 4 positions along the length the workbench.  The Lathe and Mill have access to a 15 amp circuit and there is a 15 amp circuit on two of the four bench located points.  The 15amp circuits are to provide flexibility of where I connect my welder.  A nice little BOC Multiprocess unit (MIG/MAG, DC TIG, DC Stick)  http://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/boc-smootharc-multiprocess-175-welder
> View attachment 83616
> 
> 
> Alternative layout that brings the machines closer to one of the dual 15amp sockets in the ceiling.
> View attachment 83615




That layout has me thinking that the lathes will eventually be hit by the car to be parked in the garage.  At least it looks that way, I'm not sure what the relative width is with respect to the car going into the parking position.   It would be a concern for me,   Opening the doors on the car can't be an issue either.  

Working in a tight space is never easy but I might consider light weight benches on wheel to be located along side the car park area.    This for a couple of reasons,  I prefer big heavy tools to be mounted on heavy benches ideally semi permanent.   Second being free to move a work bench around solves access issues if you happen to get involved in non model engineering uses of the  bench.  Say for example house repairs, a bench with a clear top and 360° access comes in handy for window and acre repairs.    Actually useful for larger assemblies of any type.  

In short I'd avoid position a lathe in such a way that it says hit me!


----------



## Wizard69

rodw said:


> I tend to agree and wonder if all the hype on the QCTP is worth it. It is certainly very quick with multiple tools at your fingertips. The  glue is a good idea. I knew I did something wrong after I managed to empty and cut up the beer cans.... hacksaw blades and old bandsaw blades are also handy.  Then the QCTP turned up....




QCTP are very nice to have, however they are an additional expense to get yourself started.    Personally I hate shimming tools, it is a big distraction and fiddly at best.   Long term though a QCTP is a big convenience which is why there are so many DIY approaches and commercial offerings.  There are probably a 100 different designs for QCTP floating around the model model engineering world as people come up with their own solutions or variants on others.  

Personally if I was to do a QCTP I'd either buy or make a unit compatible with a commercial offering.   Eventually you will find yourself at an auction where one or more of those tool holders will be in a box of junk that goes for a song.  I've bought almost all of my high speed tooling this way, often unexpectedly as my bidding was focused on other content in the box.  I probably have more high speed steel cutters than I will ever use at this point.  

In any event I digress here.   A QCTP is a very useful upgrade.   This especially on old lathes with lantern type tool holders.   It is not however a required upgrade.   The big advantage you get with QCTP is the specialized tool holders that allow you to hold boring bars and cut off tools without the drama of getting everything in position again.   This is especially useful for tool holders that hold cut off blades at an angle.  Setting up center height after adjusting stick out is a breeze.


----------



## goldstar31

Wizard69 said:


> In any event I digress here. A QCTP is a very useful upgrade.  Setting up center height after adjusting stick out is a breeze.


 
I confess to sheer laziness, perversity and ingrained meanness. I rarely admit to where I put my lathe tool height gauge. Anyhow, my upside down part of it to do inverted rear parting off tools- (George Thomas rides again) is hardly ever is adjusted
, I use my 6" rule nipped up until it is vertical. If my memory serves me right, I use the same 6" rule in a horizontal plane on the miller.

It's the Sixth Proposition of Euclid or Pythagoras or the Gospel according to Tubal Cain in the Book of Kings. If you forgotten or never knew, it is cheep, cheep!:hDe:

Norman


----------



## SmithDoor

Like the drawing 
Note: Wife's car door swing need on your drawing She will tell about will be a good day for you.  :hDe:
I have about same for my shop I put the work bench on wheel with lathe and mill on wall. Ever one is happy :thumbup:
I use a shop vac for all chips 




joco-nz said:


> Yup - have dual 1200mm fluorescent fixtures.  One centre of car zone, one directly over lathe position, one over workbench.  Will be adding more over length of workbench as well as getting led or halogen flexible neck work area lights to add to lathe and mill.   That should fix the frequency issue on the fluorescent tubes for rotating parts.
> 
> I also have electrical points wired to the ceiling between lathe/mill and at other end of lathe (referenced from insert below) as well as at 4 positions along the length the workbench.  The Lathe and Mill have access to a 15 amp circuit and there is a 15 amp circuit on two of the four bench located points.  The 15amp circuits are to provide flexibility of where I connect my welder.  A nice little BOC Multiprocess unit (MIG/MAG, DC TIG, DC Stick)  http://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/boc-smootharc-multiprocess-175-welder
> View attachment 83616
> 
> 
> Alternative layout that brings the machines closer to one of the dual 15amp sockets in the ceiling.
> View attachment 83615


----------



## XD351

If your going to place your mill & lathe there i would seriously look at some sort of dividing wall to stop any stray swarf landing on the car it will also help when welding and grinding etc , it does not need to be a structural wall even an old truck tarp on a tight wire you could pull along to shield the car would do but a simple frame and thin ply or masonite would be best .
Before you go forking out your hard earned i would park the car in its usual position and open the doors fully .
Then lay out the footprint of your lathe and mill on the concrete with some chalk, allow a good couple of feet at each end of the mill table for travel and a couple on the front for the vice handle to stick out , trust me on that one as i have nootered myself on the damned vice handle  as i walked past enough times to know ! 
You want some clearance between the lathe and mill to access the change gears and belts without having to move  the mill table  along to get in there because it is a PIA to do so and you may have something set up on the mill that you don't want to have to reset positions on .

Ian


----------



## joco-nz

Good ideas gents.   The existing bench is very solid and I'm reluctant to dismantel it to put the tools aginst the wall. It also has a lot of storage under it (cupboards and draws).  Plus the laundry end of the bench will be the computer station.  Hence why the mill is at that end in the revised layout. Im already thinking CNC setup.

The points re clearance for the car are well made and sufficient door opening clearance has been measured into the red car zone dimensions. The areas have been calculated based on existing usage and the "crap" zone which takes up the "man zone" being cleaned up. Things will ruthlessly end up in the dump if need be. 

The spread of metal swath has been a worry.  I'm pondering some form of backing "wall" or hood mounted to the machine benches to deflect stray cuttings from flying backwards.  Either way a strong shop vac will be a must as "she who must be obeyed" will insist on the garage being clean.  Already had that lesson from woodworking in there. Thinking something like:
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/ryobi-wet-dry-vacuum-30l-stainless-steel_p06210674

The stands im looking at fabricating for the machines will be pretty solid using a mix of SHS and RHS steel construction. Since i have the room they will be deeper than strictly needed for equipment to sit on. This should make them pretty stable.  It will also mean they can add to available storage. Actually I need to start modelling them up.

Cheers,
James


----------



## joco-nz

Did some more on dimensions this morning while warming up.  The joys of annual leave.  

Looking at things the lathe table dimensions could be a little large as the depth is nearly twice that of the lathe. Mind you that extra size can be used to hold metal stock in the back half. I don't have a good spot to put stock otherwise.  

The Mill could end up on the main workbench which would provide some more room back on the floor.  The bench is definitely solid enough for an SX3 sized mill. If I do that it would need to be either side of the window else it will get baked in the summer.  Down side is the bench is probably not the best hight for easy use.

Still, thinking and plans progress.


----------



## DJP

A nice place for a mill is diagonally in a corner. It takes less space this way and the walls do not prevent full travel of the bed, at least in my case.

Just a thought for your consideration.


----------



## goldstar31

I'm somewhat sceptical about mixing a  valuable car (and a wife's possible ire) and welding, sawdust and whatever. 

Had I attempted this with my wife's prized Mercedes sports car alongside, I would have been a certain candidate for the Vatican Choir.

I look forward - with interest and a sense of foreboding!

Regards


Norman


----------



## joco-nz

Been looking into QCTP's, specifically the home made variety.  While they clearly are not a necessity, they can be quite useful and a fun project to make as well. Heck I've had as much fun making tools for wood working as I have to making the final projects.  I can totally see the same thing happening in metal working.
There are some good looking designs out there. These look quite interesting:


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> I'm somewhat sceptical about mixing a  valuable car (and a wife's possible ire) and welding, sawdust and whatever.
> 
> Had I attempted this with my wife's prized Mercedes sports car alongside, I would have been a certain candidate for the Vatican Choir.
> 
> I look forward - with interest and a sense of foreboding!
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Norman



I tend to take over the car space when doing sizeable projects.  So when there is welding going on etc the car won't be in the garage.  The same process has been happening when doing woodworking.  For example when the table saw is setup you need a good amount of room. You just can't do it the garage with the car.  That left side gets taken over and I have to clean it all up and put the car back in.

So depending on what I end up with for the configuration of lathe and mill and what sort of swath "hoods" I can come up with I may or may not be able to work with car in garage. If I can't the precedent and working protocol has been set.  :thumbup:


----------



## XD351

Try the HOMEWS.CO.UK website  Harold has a tool post system with a different slant , there is a video link on his website to see how it works .


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Been looking into QCTP's, specifically the home made variety. While they clearly are not a necessity, they can be quite useful and a fun project to make as well. Heck I've had as much fun making tools for wood working as I have to making the final projects. I can totally see the same thing happening in metal working.
> There are some good looking designs out there. These look quite interesting:
> View attachment 83631
> 
> View attachment 83632
> 
> View attachment 83633


 
This where I turn around and question these designs.

Unless something is solidly secured, it will add to the already existing flexings of the tool. 

What has to be remembered is that I didn't trip along following the questionable dictates of sometimes suspect tutors. I'm far from alone in questioning the increased flexibility and therefore suggest a better way.

What is the better way? Well, look at Bradley who added extra gib screws in his own top slides. Again, Thomas put in pins and locks not only in top slides but boring tables  but went on to suggest modifying the tips of the screws. Cleeve threw out all the supplied screws that Myford supplied and substituted his own. Tubal Cain- the one who was a lecturer in machining in Darlington and designer of many engines, produced something called a Gibraltar tool post. The castings are still being sold! Jack Radford threw out the top slide- but I've said that before.

I am following tried and tested views of long termed seasoned model engineers- of whom YOU want to copy their designs but sadly seem unwilling to adopt their machining practices.

So there!:fan:

Norman


----------



## imagineering

joco-nz said:


> Thanks Norman.  I have the Workshop Series #3 "Screw Cutting in the Lathe".  I'll see what results I get in finding some of his other material.  I tend to look to collect useful material like this.



Hi James, we have most of these Publications in the HVMES Library. You just need to become a member ...


----------



## goldstar31

imagineering said:


> Hi James, we have most of these Publications in the HVMES Library. You just need to become a member ...


 
Does this mean that your club has the most of the ME Books or the old Model Engineers, Model Engineers Workshop and Engineering in Miniature-- or all, please?

If the magazines are available, they will invaluable to a newcomer and confirm much of what I have written

Norman.

Whilst my morning coffee was cooling, my attention was drawn to lathes.co.uk/stepperhead/

Impressive-- and it has tee slots.


----------



## joco-nz

XD351 said:


> Try the HOMEWS.CO.UK website  Harold has a tool post system with a different slant , there is a video link on his website to see how it works .



Excellent - I had completely forgotten about this site, lost in a mass of bookmarks.  All sorts of cool stuff here including that QCTP: http://homews.co.uk/page508.html


----------



## joco-nz

Ah yes the mighty gibraltar tool post:





I have plans for something like this somewhere in the piles of stuff I have been collecting.  Basically made out of a sodding great lump of steel. Not as elegant looking as the casting sold for the myford but I am guessing probably as effective or dang close to it.

Its on the "probably should have one for when I need crap loads of rigidity" list.  :thumbup:

Not sure how soon I'll get to needing that list. Time will tell.  But at the moment its all a big learning exercise and nothing starts the learning process than making some of your own mistakes.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> Whilst my morning coffee was cooling, my attention was drawn to lathes.co.uk/stepperhead/
> 
> Impressive-- and it has tee slots.



Yeah the Stepperhead looks very cool.





I have read through that build closely.  Still many parts I'm lost on but its a very interesting machine.   It seems to have taken some design inspiration from the MetalMaster by David Urwick.
METALMASTER


----------



## goldstar31

Glad you liked it.

Being an ancient old fart, I followed through the original design concept.  Aged that it is, it is not original. have a look at the Murad Bormilathe as well. Then look at the Jack Radford bits that he fitted to his Myford Super 7. They are in his book!

I got interested in what was called the Murad Antarctica lathe because I had to be involved in the Joint Norwegian, Swedish, British Antarctic Expedition in 1949. Good story there but it is still under official wraps. 

Fun, though

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> Glad you liked it.
> 
> Being an ancient old fart, I followed through the original design concept.  Aged that it is, it is not original. have a look at the Murad Bormilathe as well. Then look at the Jack Radford bits that he fitted to his Myford Super 7. They are in his book!
> 
> I got interested in what was called the Murad Antarctica lathe because I had to be involved in the Joint Norwegian, Swedish, British Antarctic Expedition in 1949. Good story there but it is still under official wraps.
> 
> Fun, though
> 
> Norman



That Murad looks rather interesting. Vertically adjustable head and tail!


----------



## goldstar31

There are only two lathes which really  'turn me on', the Bormie and the Holzapffel. 

So you buy a Super 7B and a set of local castings or be really clever and find out where Jack Radford's lathe is- ex Timaru.

On that, my best wishes

norman


----------



## imagineering

goldstar31 said:


> Does this mean that your club has the most of the ME Books or the old Model Engineers, Model Engineers Workshop and Engineering in Miniature-- or all, please?



I haven't dug into then myself but our Archivist/President has been acquiring them for years on behalf of the Assoc. I know that we go back to the 1920's but I don't know if the Collection is complete from that Era.


----------



## goldstar31

imagineering said:


> I haven't dug into then myself but our Archivist/President has been acquiring them for years on behalf of the Assoc. I know that we go back to the 1920's but I don't know if the Collection is complete from that Era.


 
I am sure that people like James who seriously wants to do things would enjoy 'digging in' to old information.

Sadly, we run into copyright problems which beset our hobby. I tried to remedy this, Jim Early did and we failed- miserably.


I'm now trying to learn how to take digital photos and even more adventurous, post them. I've never met such gobbledegook in what must be really a simple 'cookbook' thing. I simply was born before all this stuff.

Mutter, mutter, moody and whatever.

Look after James!

Regards

Norman


----------



## hanermo3

I really wish someone had a set they would donate.
I would cut off the spine, and run them through our scanner into very-high-quality PDFs at 300 dpi. And very small.

The super-duper scanner we have for work, has a hardware processor to compress PDFs in near real time.
At 100 pages per minute, both sides, single pass.
BTW a 24 MB PDF file (30 pages, full color) is only 3 MB when done by the printer.

We need to scan large quantities of documents, and a 3 hours daily chore is now about 10 minutes.
The feeder takes about 200 pages iirc.
And since its single-pass, approx zero blockages, as the path is straight.
Oh, and monthly costs dropped by 50%, too, in consumables.

I think we scan about 5000 pages / 2 weeks.


----------



## joco-nz

Today I tried to start my MIG welding adventure.  Naively I thought I could go to BOC in Petone, fill in the form, pay my money and come away with a rented Argon/CO2 D sized bottle.  But OH NO, to simple.  I have to have an account opened first. THEN I have to fill in the D1 Plan form, and THEN I can organise to collect an suitable bottle.  SHEESH!  :wall:  :rant: *knuppel2*

So it looks like I will have to play with my stick welding function until I get gas and can do MIG.  Still learning stick is still very useful since it means I can more easily do outside welding and can tackle thicker metals than the MIG will be able to handle.

All part of the broader metal working learning experience.  :thumbup:


----------



## joco-nz

Okay, try not to laugh to hard.  My first EVER (and I do mean EVER) welding beads using stick (or any form of welding technique for that matter). Right hand side is where I was practicing striking an arc.   Then started doing vertical beads then getting closer together at the far left.




Cheers,
James.


----------



## bazmak

The welds on the left are reasonable for a beginner.I was sent on a welding course early in my working life.I was given a pallet of scrap steel from 1mm to 10mm thick and told to spend a week building sculptures from bits of scrap
all position from horizintal to vertical to upside down horizontal.Only way to learn,books help but practice is better


----------



## Auskart

You have to start somewhere, well done.:thumbup:


----------



## goldstar31

I am having computer problems and have lost a lot of  my comments.
The first comment is to get one of these automatic self darkening head shields. They help enormously for Mig and Tig as well. 
The next thing is to try to get a video from the Welding Institute. There is also a Mig one. Both are great- but quite ancient.
The third is find the Mig Welding forum on the net. Despite the title, it helps with arc stuff, too.
Finally( at this time), get one of these vibrating holders for holding sticks. No jokes please- but they help in striking an arc.

As Barry rightly comments that it is a question of 'practice, practice, practice'

I was a Certified Welder and would comment that one loses the 'touch' and has to re-certify. I've had a 'layoff' of 30 odd years and slowly getting my eye and hand back in with my cheap little 105A Mig. 

So practice, practice, practice. I hope that the foregoing is some little help. 

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers guys.   From a "gear" perspective I have the auto darkening helmet, took the hint on that from what feels like a million "how to weld" type youtube videos. Including stuff from brand names like Miller and Lincoln.

Other than that I just need to clock up time under the helmet.  Thanks to Bruce for donating the bit of the angle steel for me to start on.  I now need to try and dig up some scrap plate or flat bar wide enough so that I can just lay rows and rows of beads down and have enough distance to adjust and see the variations the adjustments create.
At the moment I think I may have too much arch length which might be contributing to excessive splatter.  All good.  Just need to experiment a bit.

Oh, I was using 2.5mm 6013 electrode running at ~85amps (rated for 70-100amps). It was just what I had that came with the welder.  The angle steel looks to be ~3mm thick.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## jayville

hey blogwitch...if we started making lathes here in Tassie you would get a bonus...they would all come with two head stocks.....clem


----------



## rodw

Good work. Now this is something that only Fred the guy who ran a welding course for 4 of us back in the 80s when we were at college knew. Fred started welding back in WWW2 welding up mufflers for submarines....

MIG was unheard of back in the 80s.

Fred told us a welding rod was designed to weld 9". All of his practice steel was cut to 9" long and he told us to measure out the 9" and make sure the top of the rod was above that point. Then all you had to do is to drop your hand while keeping the arc constant. Try to find some longer pieces of scrap. Try Freds rule.

BOC was kind enough to set the account up for me while I waited on my first visit.  Argoshield Light is the gas for MIG steel , Argon is for TIG and MIG Aluminium. Make sure you price a E bottle, price is almost identical. 

People say MIG is easier than stick, but I am not convinced. It is certainly much quicker which is why its used in manufacturing.


----------



## Wizard69

Not bad for the first attempts at striking an arc.



joco-nz said:


> Cheers guys.   From a "gear" perspective I have the auto darkening helmet, took the hint on that from what feels like a million "how to weld" type youtube videos. Including stuff from brand names like Miller and Lincoln.


One of the most important things with welding is your ability to see what is going on at the weld puddle.   A good helmet helps as does good prescription safety glasses.   I've been welding on and off for years often at work for maintenance but also for home projects and I have to say as I get older eyesight becomes a problem so anything that results in a clearer view of what is going on is worth every penny.  

Recently I was doing some welding outside and ended up trying to run a beed in a area that was in a shadow.   Poor vision had me run the beed completely out of the seam.   Very embarrassing but it highlights the problem poor vision introduces, in this case the inability to handle large contrasts in light.  


> Other than that I just need to clock up time under the helmet.  Thanks to Bruce for donating the bit of the angle steel for me to start on.  I now need to try and dig up some scrap plate or flat bar wide enough so that I can just lay rows and rows of beads down and have enough distance to adjust and see the variations the adjustments create.


The best way to develop you skills is to lay down various beads to join metal sections and then break the parts apart.  Depending upon how fast you progress you should find you first joints to be questionable at best and eventually get to the point where the seam is very strong to the point that you can't break it. 


> At the moment I think I may have too much arch length which might be contributing to excessive splatter.  All good.  Just need to experiment a bit.


Maybe that is just something that takes a bit of practice to manage.   What you might want to do though is to make sure the metal you are welding is clean, hitting it with a disk grinder will make for better joints.  


> Oh, I was using 2.5mm 6013 electrode running at ~85amps (rated for 70-100amps). It was just what I had that came with the welder.  The angle steel looks to be ~3mm thick.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James.




Back when I did stick welding that is what I ran the rod at.    Someplace between 80 and 90 amps.


----------



## joco-nz

Rod - interesting rule. I'll see if can give it a go.

Re BOC, I'll see what the E bottle rental is. The D size for argon/co2 about NZD200 for 12 months. With 1 initial fill. I need to ask them a blunt question as I have a nasty feeling, based on language to date, that if I want to get straight argon on a fill instead of argon/co2 mix they expect me to rent a second bottle.  Where as EasyGas, where I buy the bottle (big $ upfront) will let me swap between argon and an argon/co2 mix on fills as I want. 

I'm starting to get a sense of the "why" of some of the quite passionate posts against BOC from a number of NZ hobby welders. I'll "suck it and see" for a year with BOC and then decide based on real usage patterns if EasyGas or SuperGas are better options.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Rod - interesting rule. I'll see if can give it a go.
> 
> Re BOC, I'll see what the E bottle rental is. The D size for argon/co2 about NZD200 for 12 months. With 1 initial fill. I need to ask them a blunt question as I have a nasty feeling, based on language to date, that if I want to get straight argon on a fill instead of argon/co2 mix they expect me to rent a second bottle.  Where as EasyGas, where I buy the bottle (big $ upfront) will let me swap between argon and an argon/co2 mix on fills as I want.
> 
> I'm starting to get a sense of the "why" of some of the quite passionate posts against BOC from a number of NZ hobby welders. I'll "suck it and see" for a year with BOC and then decide based on real usage patterns if EasyGas or SuperGas are better options.



Rent is not much different here. See if you can rent the bottle on a monthly basis so you can change your bottle holding when you want. You will probably use a fair bit of gas starting off so rental is cheaper and move to the swap and go system later when consumption dies down. Initially they set me up quarterly but the rep who called in at work gave me a free bottle of Argon and talked me into monthly rentals. They just debit my account.


----------



## XD351

Do you have the gasweld franchise in NZ or Bunnings ?
Over here we can buy our own bottles through them , not cheap but you get your money back over time not having to pay rent on them .
Fortunately Bunnings now carries acetylene as well now .

Ian


----------



## SmithDoor

I have own my bottles since the 70's with no rent. Note buy the tanks that can be  exchange. The gas will cost little more but I can go to supplier and exchange for a full tank. 
Note I found use 80 cfm [Q]  or 120 cfm [M] is about size not to big but give a lot gas for the buck. 
I have smaller tank 20 CFM but all ever time I use it need to be filled. 


Dave



joco-nz said:


> Rod - interesting rule. I'll see if can give it a go.
> 
> Re BOC, I'll see what the E bottle rental is. The D size for argon/co2 about NZD200 for 12 months. With 1 initial fill. I need to ask them a blunt question as I have a nasty feeling, based on language to date, that if I want to get straight argon on a fill instead of argon/co2 mix they expect me to rent a second bottle.  Where as EasyGas, where I buy the bottle (big $ upfront) will let me swap between argon and an argon/co2 mix on fills as I want.
> 
> I'm starting to get a sense of the "why" of some of the quite passionate posts against BOC from a number of NZ hobby welders. I'll "suck it and see" for a year with BOC and then decide based on real usage patterns if EasyGas or SuperGas are better options.


----------



## joco-nz

I think i got my fanchise nams screwed up.

The ones are:
http://eziswapgas.co.nz
http://www.supagas.co.nz

These are the only suppliers i am aware of in NZ who support something like an "owner bottle" type concept.

For non NZ readers it is useful to understand that gas bottles are heavily regulated here. Not only do they need to be tested and certified (every 5 years- i think) but each bottle needs to be part of a traceable batch, ie numbered with that produxtion batch number and the connecting threads on them appear to be non standard. The upshot is a quite controlled and protectionist setup.

Anyway.  Ill just need to figure out what is the most viable path longer term. Until then I'll have fun making sparks.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Right today is another tool buying day.  Those are always GOOD days.  I've been prevaricating over what bench grinder to get. There are just so many makes and sizes that I didn't know what way to go.  However having the chance to see Bruce's workshop and what he manufactures from it I'm pretty comfortable fallowing his lead.  No pressure Bruce.  :thumb:

So, bench grinder: https://www.bunnings.co.nz/ryobi-bench-grinder-sander-375w_p00314864
A nice mix of size, price and capability from the looks of it.  I'll need to get a white and probably green wheel for it.  But this will get me started and should form the corner stone of some HSS tooling for the lathe.

Now I need to cut metal.  I rather liked the "cold" cutoff saws with the TCT blades.  Fast and accurate but a little limited.  The more I looked the situation and the limited room I have I finally concluded I would be better served with a small bandsaw. Able to cut solid chunks of metal, able to cut hollow section and able to be upright like a regular bandsaw.  Again taking the lead from Bruce and taking account of available space I'm looking at the http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/B002 although I might get the http://www.thetoolshed.co.nz/Products/Workshop/Bandsaws/ToolShed-Metal-Cutting-Bandsaw which is exactly the same model but wth a 36 month warranty and if the local store has it I can get it today/tomorrow.

Such fun!.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## XD351

I have the next size up - 200mm but without the linisher mine is about 18 yrs old and has been a reliable tool .
One thing you will need to do sooner or later is upgrade the tool rest with something a bit more solid , i made one from 25mm sq tube with a chunk of 10x75 mm flat bar as the top and then bolted it to the bench - nice and solid .
Sooner or later some one will come along and tell you that you need to change the wheel to either a white or green one depending on whether you are grinding HSS or carbide , i never bothered for lathe bits or drill bits  and have never had a problem .
That said it all changes when you want to resharpen end mils or slot drills but this will be something to worry about a bit down the track and then you would look at a dedicated grinder and jig to do it .
I picked up a Hafco grinder off eBay ,the biggest 240v one they make and bolted a linisher attachment to it - sounds like a jet engine winding up , the neighbours just love it ! 
On tip is keep the grinder as far away from your lathe as possible and cover the lathe with a cheap tarp if you're going to be doing a lot of grinding , you don't want grinding dust on the ways  .
I always wanted a cold cut off saw but ended up with the Hafco Bs4 this is now around 15 yrs old and has done an awful lot more work than i ever thought it would ! Box trailers ,car trailers , target frames for a rifle club , god knows how many benches and lathe stands - damned best thing i ever bought !
They usually need a bit of attention when you first set it up , usually just tweaking the guide rollers and getting the blade set up so it runs properly in the drive & idler wheel - all pretty simple.
Just remember to keep the blade feed pressure down as too much and the blade can wander giving a cut that is not square !
Mine has had some upgrades over the years , extended vice jaws , hydraulic feed unit , better stand etc but those are things you play with when it suits you. 
Have you any experience sharpening Lathe tools ( high speed steel ) ?
There are a couple of channels on YouTube you may wish to look at if you haven't already done so :
Mrpete222 

That lazy machinist .
Both excellent channels for machinists and model engineers .

Well i better leave it at that , the clock just chimed beer o'clock and you will need to put your slippers on and light a pipe to read the pages of script i tend to write  after a couple !


----------



## joco-nz

XD351 - cheers. Have the grinder in a box all ready to be dealt with tomorrow.  The Tool Shed in Petone only have a single unit left of their bandsaw, its preassembled on the shop floor.  I think I'll just go get it tomorrow morning (they open 9am). The nice thing about 36 month warranty and a local supplier is that if I have any issues real easy to rock up and and get some attention.     Plus unless I am missing something the Tool Shed TSB03 is exactly the same as the Hafco BS4, spec's, everything is bang on other than the colour.


----------



## imagineering

joco-nz said:


> XD351 - cheers. Have the grinder in a box all ready to be dealt with tomorrow.  The Tool Shed in Petone only have a single unit left of their bandsaw, its preassembled on the shop floor.  I think I'll just go get it tomorrow morning (they open 9am). The nice thing about 36 month warranty and a local supplier is that if I have any issues real easy to rock up and and get some attention.     Plus unless I am missing something the Tool Shed TSB03 is exactly the same as the Hafco BS4, spec's, everything is bang on other than the colour.



Yes it is the same Machine James. Print out the Machinery House Advert and go to the ToolShed with it. They will Price Match it if you get a bit insistent about it. Let them know that you will be buying from Mach House because of the price and they will usually jump at the chance to sell you one at the reduced Price.


----------



## rodw

Re bandsaws, whilst there is nothing wrong with the one you've chosen, If you can raise the budget to this one, you'll find life much easier
http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/B003

The reason I suggest this is that I took a second hand one like you are looking at home from Hare and Forbes and promptly returned it. I then bought the next one up new (it was similar but since discontinued). I wore it out in a few years. Down side is that it is very hard to get to cut straight (crimping a metal ruler between the guide rollers and running it up and down along a set square help a lot). 
I then purchased the one linked to above. The green one is made in Taiwan, double the weight, has a bigger throat and is much better built. With a cast in back guide, its much easier to get to cut square. I would have loved to get this one http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/B006 but did not have the space.

You are on the right track, bandsaws are much more versatile, cut unattended while you do something else and are soo much cleaner than a metal chop saw. They are also quite dangerous, I put 6 stitches in my finger last week courtesy of this saw and a 6 TPI blade.....


----------



## joco-nz

Bandsaw locked and loaded. 





Its the same model as the starting hafco.  Just from a local shop in Petone. Delivery on Tuesday.

Budget kept the model options to the lower limit. Originally I wasnt going to get a bandsaw and was going to rely on a home made powered hacksaw.  So this was an unplanned expense.  I think ultimately worth it but still unplanned.

I am going to need to come up with a quick and accurate way of setting the clamp at some key angles to the blade.  90 and 45 being the obvious ones. Sounds like a litte jig project. :thumbup:

Having looked at this in store I already intend to upgrade the "table" that is used when in the vertical position.  It needs a bit of plate steel, pobably ~4mm instead of the whussy pressed sheet stuff that comes with it.

XD351 - for the upgrades to the bandsaw, do you have that on a thread? If not would you be able to take some pics of what you feel are the best improvements you made and post them with and relevnat commentary?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## DJP

I have the same saw for the past 30 years or more. Rockwell design copy, I think. It has cut lots of steel for me. Be sure to get a few HSS blades as spares. They last a long time but fail in the middle of a project as always.

I marked the bed with a chisel punch for various angles of the vise fixed plate but don't just measure and mark. It's best to measure, cut a test piece, confirm the angle then mark it. There is play in the mounting hardware to mess you up.

It's a tough little saw.


----------



## goldstar31

Walking before running, please. This is a 6 x 4 band saw and under that description there is a wealth of internet information. 

Incidentally, I'm on my second one. 

Regards

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

I see a lot of comments that bi-metal blades are the go.  Does that mean HSS or something else?


----------



## bruedney

Hi James

These are the blades I get for my bandsaw

http://www.bandsaw.co.nz/products/bi-metal-blades/bi-metal-blade-13mm-x-10/14-tpi

Cheers

Bruce


----------



## XD351

I never had any luck with the standard starrett blades but the bi metal ones may be better , i found a saw blade manufacturer up in Queensland that sold the correct size bi metal blades at a lower price of what hare and forbes wanted so bought three blades and I'm now on my second blade after about 4 yrs of intermittent usage .
The last blade did not break the part moved in the vice  and ripped a few teeth off a section of blade .
One tip is if the saw is not going to be used for a while loosen the tension on the blade.


----------



## XD351

joco-nz said:


> Bandsaw locked and loaded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its the same model as the starting hafco.  Just from a local shop in Petone. Delivery on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> Budget kept the model options to the lower limit. Originally I wasnt going to get a bandsaw and was going to rely on a home made powered hacksaw.  So this was an unplanned expense.  I think ultimately worth it but still unplanned.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to need to come up with a quick and accurate way of setting the clamp at some key angles to the blade.  90 and 45 being the obvious ones. Sounds like a litte jig project. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Having looked at this in store I already intend to upgrade the "table" that is used when in the vertical position.  It needs a bit of plate steel, pobably ~4mm instead of the whussy pressed sheet stuff that comes with it.
> 
> 
> 
> XD351 - for the upgrades to the bandsaw, do you have that on a thread? If not would you be able to take some pics of what you feel are the best improvements you made and post them with and relevnat commentary?
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> James.




Most if not all of the mods are on youtube , the main one is the hydraulic - arm lowering unit  search for the halligan 142 channel he did a series on it .
The extended vice jaws is nothing more than some 75x10 flatbar bolted to the original jaws , it just extends the jaws closer to the blade , there is a jacking bolt on the other end of the clamping jaw that can be set to stop that jaw swivelling when cutting short items .
I wouldn't worry too much about these enhancements yet , pay more attention to getting it set up so it cuts nice and square it's not the horizontal plane that is a problem as the vice is easily adjusted but the vertical plane is the issue as the blade cut inwards or outwards of the 90 deg you want .
To set angles i just use a combination square , hold the base against the blade and the rule is used to set the jaw to the angle 90 or 45 deg .
Remember the bandsaw is not a precision instrument , if you need extreme accuracy it's time for the sine bar to come out and set the piece  up on the mill !
Better to take baby steps for now rather than leaps and bounds as you can always take a step backwards if you get lost  , if you take a giant leap it can be difficult to find where you leapt from !
I would be more concerned with getting the lathe set up and start using it because it is the foundation machine that a model engineers workshop is built around .


----------



## joco-nz

XD351 - thanks and good points.  Trying to make space for said lathe!  :wall:  oh:


----------



## joco-nz

The welding adventure continues.  Cut up the angle steel I had so I could practice some joints.  Having fun and learning lots.  Probably todays biggest win was re-reading the auto darkening helmet manual and realising with the amps I am running I had the shade to dark.  What a difference fixing that made.  I could finally see what the weld pool actually looked like!

This running 2.4mm 6013 electrode @ 90amp. Today I got my steel rule out and measured the steel, it is 5mm thick.



I also had a cunning plan to get some space back in the garage. Using one or two of these I can get some stuff stored outside.  I'm thinking some garden tools and a chunk of emergency water in case of earth quake.
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/tyson-toolbox-plastic-1450mm-black_p00678849


----------



## goldstar31

goldstar31 said:


> Walking before running, please. This is a 6 x 4 band saw and under that description there is a wealth of internet information.
> 
> Incidentally, I'm on my second one.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Norman


 
Adding to my earlier comments, I would suggest that you read the efforts of John Moran in GadgetBuilder.com.

He also gives a lot of practical advice about the far more complex requirements of model engineering. He draws upon what other people have achieved and tests them. Worth a read.

In addition, I found his tool and cutter grinding stuff quite interesting especially for those who want to develop their new found competences.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> I see a lot of comments that bi-metal blades are the go.  Does that mean HSS or something else?



They have a mix of teeth so you can use them to cut different  material without changing blades. I have never been able to find them for my saw so I swap blades. 6tpi for cutting ally, plastic and fingers, 14tpi for steel...


----------



## XD351

Looks like your lead angle is wrong or you are weaving the rod and by the amount of spatter your arc length may be too long .
But for a beginner not too bad .
You will always get a burn through like that at the end unless you do one of two things :
Pre weld that end or use a runoff plate.
I would suggest doing some runs on some 6 or  8 mm plate or similar , just run some beads and look for consistent width  as this indicates your weld speed is consistent. 
Think of your correct angles by starting with your rod perpendicular to the plate i.e. 90 deg   In both planes Now lay the rod over in the direction you weld - you look like a righty so weld left to right .
The angle should be 70 deg so the arc is trailing your hand .
You can let the rod sit on on the workpiece as the arc will burn the metal electrode up inside the flux coating , don't push down just let it ride there and some like to use both hands by feeding the rod through their  fingers  like a cigarette so don't be scared to guide the rod with your other hand .
Sit down and lean against your bench or something as the more stable you are the better .

The trick with welding helmets is to start off dark and work down in shades until you can see but if it is making you squint behind your helmet you have gone too far , always safer to be a shade darker than you need until you get used to it , welding flash is not nice trust me !
Oh i nearly forgot - sooner or later you will burn yourself - it will happen it's part of the job !
We are here to help !


----------



## joco-nz

XD351 - thanks.  I've been very conscious of the angle and have been leaning the stick forward towards the direction of travel. I was weaving a little bit but perhaps with the stick I don't need to or shouldn't.

Agree re running the beads, just don't have any scrap plate yet and still working out the places to get such stuff.

I suspect at the moment the 90amps might be a bit hot. I rewatched some of ChuckE2009's vids on common stick problems and his "to hot" demo had a lot of similar characteristics to mine.  I think I need to dial back to ~80amps. There are probably other factors at play but at least I am very aware of arc length, stick angle and trying to keep a consistent speed when doing the work.  It's all practice and I have barely started clocking up helmet time.

I'm running shade 9 per the helmets manual, I think I will move it to half way between 9 & 10.  Just a little darker will, I think, be a wee bit more comfortable.

I'll have another play tomorrow.  

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Hi James
> 
> These are the blades I get for my bandsaw
> 
> http://www.bandsaw.co.nz/products/bi-metal-blades/bi-metal-blade-13mm-x-10/14-tpi



Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours?  Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours? Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.
> 
> Cheers,
> J.


 
Actually 56.5 inches but if you have to rejoin or make a blade there is sufficient adjustment on the adjustable pulley. Scarf jointing with silver soldering is probably next on the menu. 

Oh just a hint. I use a couple of toolmakers' clamps to set the blade vertically- in the cutting part. Tool makers clamps are another simple but invaluable accessory which 'proper' people make. Very useful and one's first introduction to using taps and dies.  And then you make holders- and - it never stops. 

Hint- if you don't make some of your tooling you will soon  wear out your wallet spanner:hDe:


----------



## rodw

Bandsaws are without doubt the cheapest metal cutting tool in relation to consumables. You have enough to learn for a while. Just grab a 14 tpi blade for steel and a 6tpi for aluminum. You can cut ally with 14 tpi but its slower than it needs to be. If you are cutting thinwalled tube, maybe grab a 18 tpi one as well. Keep 1 blade spare. When starting out, make your spare 14 tpi. I keep 1 of each. If your saw is well adjusted, they last a very long time.

If a bimetal blade is available for your machine, it will be all you need. If its not available, keep it simple for now and stick with blades that are available fo it.


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> Actually 56.5 inches but if you have to rejoin or make a blade there is sufficient adjustment on the adjustable pulley. Scarf jointing with silver soldering is probably next on the menu.
> 
> Oh just a hint. I use a couple of toolmakers' clamps to set the blade vertically- in the cutting part. Tool makers clamps are another simple but invaluable accessory which 'proper' people make. Very useful and one's first introduction to using taps and dies.  And then you make holders- and - it never stops.
> 
> Hint- if you don't make some of your tooling you will soon  wear out your wallet spanner:hDe:



Yup plan is to make a lot of tools, my self imposed apprenticeship. Mind you I just like making things.  
I have a number of the Workshop Series books covering tools/workshop accessories and The Model Engineers Workshop Manual. So lots of instructions to build tools. :thumbup:


----------



## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> Bruce - you just order a 1640mm length blade to fit yours?  Or something more exact per the manual: 1638mm.
> 
> Cheers,
> J.



Hi James

I order a 1640mm

Cheers

Bruce


----------



## DJP

If you are using 6013/7014 rods they are coated in a flux that also contains steel powder. They are the easiest rods to use so great to start off. I wouldn't worry about an arc being too hot. You need penetration of heat for a good solid weld and the cosmetics are secondary, in my opinion. Multiple pass welding is also the standard which most people ignore looking for that perfect filet in one pass. If you want strength you need penetration of heat and multiple passes.

Vertical welding is tricky and it requires smaller rods. The 6013 type creates too much of a puddle that will drop unless you have the technique just perfect.

For really nice welds consider using 307 or 316 Low Hydrogen stainless rods. They conduct heat better and the results are shiny welds with one tap to remove the slag coating.

That's one of my tests for a nice weld.... if the slag flies off in one piece with one hit from a chipping hammer.

A welder is one tool that you can use to make more tools. For that reason it is priceless and should be part of every shop set up. 

That said, be sure that you have a safe welding area with extinguisher within reach. I keep a couple of 1 litre bottles of water close by for the small problems and the extinguisher is at the doorway where I would escape. Clothing is important too. Exposed skin and eyes will burn quickly due to UV radiation and clothes need to be safe. Heavy cotton is best as only a hole will burn through. Synthetic clothes melt which is bad news.

My most recent enhancement to the shop was not tools but metal siding on the ceiling and walls. I used recovered tin sheets from an old barn and lined the entire shop. The place is more fire restraint and it cleans up easily.

Last suggestion... I installed an old furnace blower in the ceiling to extract welding fumes. Some are really dangerous like welding galvanized coated steel and scraps that are painted can be welded but in the process the paint is burnt off. If you can weld outdoors that is best and in bright sun light a dark mask shade will still let win light to see the job before the arc starts. I still use the old style mask and leave the auto darkening one for guests who want to see the process or try it themselves.

Just a few more thoughts for your consideration.

Yes HSS saw blades are the bi-metalic type and I only stock 14 tpi. When cutting hollow tube I hold the frame in my hand so that I can control the drop during the vertical wall cutting. That's when a tooth can break off the blade. WD40 in a spray bottle also keeps blades lasting longer. Old worn out blades cut into small pieces can be used as spacers for lathe tooling. There is no end to uses once you have the saw.


----------



## DJP

I forgot to mention that one of my first lessons in welding during my youth was filling in a hole that burnt through. It can be done using multiple short loops with time for the puddle to set before adding the next loop. It's a skill that saved my first welding project when my uncle showed it to me on the farm. Cold welds are not strong and with higher heat there is the risk of burn through. If you can deal with an occasional hole the process is much more forgiving.


----------



## SmithDoor

This size I use works great 
I did raze the saw  6" [152mm]  it very low to use.  I set to height  of my saw horses  

Dave




joco-nz said:


> Bandsaw locked and loaded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its the same model as the starting hafco.  Just from a local shop in Petone. Delivery on Tuesday.
> 
> Budget kept the model options to the lower limit. Originally I wasnt going to get a bandsaw and was going to rely on a home made powered hacksaw.  So this was an unplanned expense.  I think ultimately worth it but still unplanned.
> 
> I am going to need to come up with a quick and accurate way of setting the clamp at some key angles to the blade.  90 and 45 being the obvious ones. Sounds like a litte jig project. :thumbup:
> 
> Having looked at this in store I already intend to upgrade the "table" that is used when in the vertical position.  It needs a bit of plate steel, pobably ~4mm instead of the whussy pressed sheet stuff that comes with it.
> 
> XD351 - for the upgrades to the bandsaw, do you have that on a thread? If not would you be able to take some pics of what you feel are the best improvements you made and post them with and relevnat commentary?
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


----------



## joco-nz

While I wait for the bandsaw to arrive (ETA Tuesday) I spent some more time today organising the garage and practicing running welding beads.

Managed to clear out a good square of space today and once I sell some surplus desks I will have room for the lathe.  Yeeeha!

In the mean time I experimented with some settings on the welder.   Started out still DCEP but at 80 amps.  It worked but again not a very smooth bead. I then rewatched the first parts of ChucKE2009's Learning to Stick Weld series and noticed he was using DCEN with 6013.  The BOC electrodes I have can do either polarity so I switched over to DCEN at 80amps.  Not sure if I was just more calm/practiced but man what a difference.  And boy does the slag come off much easier when you get a smooth and consistent bead.  Also got some tips from my vastly more experienced neighbour on what to look for in the weld puddle.


----------



## XD351

You can switch between the two dcep gives less penetration  , useful for thin stuff .
Dcen is the normal polarity .
Give the pieces a  metal a good clean up with a grinder first , any  rust or crap on it will make life more difficult than it needs to be .
Welding is a little bit like painting - preparation is everything .
Also be careful where you buy your rods from hardware stores sell them but they may have been sitting on a shelf for years if they have a white powder on them they have gone past their use by date .
You can still use them but nice fresh rods are better .
Cheap rods can have you pulling your hair out , they will nib on you ( a chunk of flux breaks off one side and the arc blows out where it came off ) instant slag hole !
I usually stick to satin craft 13 rods  also like WIA  and Lincoln rods , recently i bought some JBS rods (blackwoods own brand) they seem ok also .


----------



## DJP

When you get your saw, cut that sample weld across and examine it for penetration and an estimate of strength holding the two pieces together. You will see why great welds start with ground out edges and have multiple passes.

Another thing to practise is tack welding to hold the pieces in position while the long bead progresses. Distortion is a common problem that ruins a welded assembly. I have also found that tacking a corner allows me to tap the pieces into perfect alignment before I start welding.

I have friends who wanted to be welders so they bought small machines and I gave them an intro. They didn't practise so the welder remains a tool with which they have no comfort. I commend you for practising and practising more.

Try some thin pieces and smaller rods next. The challenge is much harder in my experience and it justifies having both stick and mig welders.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP - funny you should mention the cutting of the weld. I have kept the piece for exactly that reason. Also to see how straight the saw cuts in the vertical.

I have seen mention of "etching" the weld to assess penetration. Not sure if I can do that or not. Suspect it needs some nasty chemicals. But I will cut it and see what I can see.


----------



## DJP

I wouldn't expect a perfectly square cut from that saw. Its value is in cutting pieces from stock to be machined or welded together. Best success for me has been with slow feed, lubricant and a new blade. As the blade teeth become worn it will wander and eventually a new blade is required.

Still, that little saw has done a lot of rough cutting for me and I love it.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> I wouldn't expect a perfectly square cut from that saw. Its value is in cutting pieces from stock to be machined or welded together. Best success for me has been with slow feed, lubricant and a new blade. As the blade teeth become worn it will wander and eventually a new blade is required.
> 
> Still, that little saw has done a lot of rough cutting for me and I love it.



Agree, not expecting cold saw grade cuts. But I want to understand how good a cut it can do when shown some TLC.  .i.e. A slow cut so that the blade isnt being forced which would make it more likely to wander, given some lubricant periodically through the cut to help things along.

I also want to check that its not operating in a manner that would suggest a fundamental manufacturing flaw. This is a chinese sourced machine and I have read enough stories to understand that quality control can appear to be a bit hit and miss.


----------



## DJP

I'm confident that cleaning up some rough edges and using shims where necessary the saw can be made to operate correctly. I had a problem with the pulley retaining screw and had to drill and tap for a second allen screw. I should have checked when noises started and maybe tightening of the single screw would have been enough.  

Your plan to make a larger flat table when using the saw vertically should be considered carefully. There is very little clearance between the blade and the frame so cutting sheet metal has limits. For that reason I never made a bigger table. 

Just a few more thoughts for your consideration.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> Your plan to make a larger flat table when using the saw vertically should be considered carefully. There is very little clearance between the blade and the frame so cutting sheet metal has limits. For that reason I never made a bigger table.



Not meaning bigger in size so much as something more robust (thicker) than the thin sheet metal version it comes with.  I'll see how I go with out of the box first.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Not meaning bigger in size so much as something more robust (thicker) than the thin sheet metal version it comes with.  I'll see how I go with out of the box first.



I've attached a PDF and DXF file that should work for you. This is a direct replacement for the OEM pressed metal table. If you can get it laser cut out of 5mm plate steel, all you'll need to do is to countersink the two holes. 

You might get caught with a minimum order price but when I snuck this through with an order for a part I get cut regularly, I got 2 of them for $10 each.

I know this table works on the 6 x 4, 6 x 5 and also my 7 x 5 swivel saw. Just check the dimensions against your saw before using.Enjoy! 

View attachment Saw Table.PDF


View attachment Saw Table.zip


----------



## joco-nz

Rod - awesome!

Now, due to the vast continental distances NZ has to deal with between cities the saw hasn't managed to make it from Hamilton to Wellington yet. So I'll call the store today to find out what is happening.  :wall: :rant: oh:


----------



## joco-nz

I have a new tool in the garage!!  Got delivered today and now waiting for me to assemble and do first test cuts this evening.


----------



## bazmak

Photos please


----------



## joco-nz

The saw on the stand.  Still no pulleys etc in place at this stage.



Pulleys all in place



Looks like this model has some marks for different angles.



And a cutting we go!






My first couple of cuts on the saw. Looks pretty good.  I used some cutting oil to help the process along.




The last "good" weld I showed a few posts back, now cut to see what it looks like on the inside.  The "good" side is on the right hand side of the longer portion. The upper fillets look ok and they were the ones I was most confident with.


----------



## DJP

I run my saw at the slowest speed and have never changed it. The saw works at its own pace while I do something else and wait for the clang when a piece falls to the floor. Oil sprayed on the moving blade is a good idea and normal procedure for me. It sounds better while cutting with oil.

From the results of your first cuts, the saw is working just fine. Now for the next 30 years it can cut and cut and cut although I expect it to not look this clean ever again.

Take care and thanks for sharing the journey. It brought back memories.


----------



## joco-nz

Looks like I should do a little tuning on the saw based on some inspection of the test cuts with an engineers square.  How to describe this ...

Putting the angle iron in the clamp so that it has a flat side on the bed and a side vertical to the bed.  After the cut is completed the flat side is square, meaning the pivot of the saw is correctly aligned with the length of the bed.

The vertical side is not square.  It's out around 0.5mm to 0.75mm across the length the of the cut.  Meaning that when the saw drops down the blade is cutting back towards the bed slightly. I think this means the blade has a slight twist in it. The adjustment needed seems to be document by this youtube video: https://youtu.be/0Z-xRzI6nEI

It's going to be a small adjustment so will be fiddly to get right but now I have found it it's going to bug the heck out of me.  I HATE tools that are not correctly aligned. :wall:

On the "fun" side I'm looking at a coolant system I found on the yahoo groups ( https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/4x6bandsaw/files ).  Its nice and simple and seems pretty simple to put together. A bit of fun.


----------



## DJP

That is not unusual for a thin vertical section being cut. The blade can wander. Better to place the angle iron with edges on the bed so that it looks like an inverted 'V'. The blade will have more support.

Slowing the feed rate and moving the blade supports closer to the work piece may also help.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> That is not unusual for a thin vertical section being cut. The blade can wander. Better to place the angle iron with edges on the bed so that it looks like an inverted 'V'. The blade will have more support.
> 
> Slowing the feed rate and moving the blade supports closer to the work piece may also help.



True, but the same observations was found after checking the angle iron as cut in the original picture posts. Ie in the inverted V position. I have been very concious of feed rate so have cranked the spring up.  Im almost suspicious its too light. But I'm pretty comfident I'm not over feeding it.  Blade speed is set at the middle speed 29m/min which is according to the manual correct for mild steel and brass, bronze etc.

The other check i did was to stand an engineers square on the bed hard up against the fence and with its "blade" in the vertical very close to saws blade.  Starting with the saw in the down position and slowly lifting up, all good but as I get to within 50-70mm or so of the adjustable support the blade edge teeth start to interfere with the square. Also when using the Mark I eyeball looking down at the top of the blade it appears slightly "fatter" towards that support end.  All this makes me suspect the blade has a very slight twist in it towards the extensable support arm.

Anyway, I'll do some tweaks and see if I cant make it better.  I want to get some progress on it this morning as I want to get some traction on the first welding project today and having good square cuts will help with that.


----------



## XD351

On the guide rollers you will find the roller bracket is bolted to the extension shaft and sits in a slot , this is so it can be moved forward or backward to adjust the back roller which rides on the back of the blade .
The fit of the bracket in that slot is usually pretty sloppy , what i had to do to mine is get a hold on the roller bracket with a shifter and give it a tweak( don't gronk on it) just a light twist in the opposite direction to where the cut is drifting .
While you have a hold of the bracket give the retaining bolt i tighten up , what happens is when they tighten that bolt at the factory they don't hold the bracket and the force of tightening the bolt twists the bracket in that slot it sits in.

Ian.


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## DJP

I know that you are using a new blade but check that the teeth on both sides have equal bite. I get this symptom when the blade is due for replacement.

I doubt that a little out of square should stop your wedding project. I have found it best to tack weld two pieces together with one tack then using a square and hammer make the parts alignment perfect before starting the full welding pass. I have magnets and clamps to hold pieces together but usually something goes wrong so tacking and adjusting works best for my projects. If it's really badly off position the tack is easy to break then start again. With 6013 rods there is lots of molten puddle to fill in any slight gaps.

These thoughts are assuming a general welding project like a work bench. If you are into high precision and many parts then a jig is required and after the welding process the parts need to be heated to relieve stresses before final machining. I don't do that level of work.


----------



## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> It's going to be a small adjustment so will be fiddly to get right but now I have found it it's going to bug the heck out of me.  I HATE tools that are not correctly aligned. :wall:
> 
> On the "fun" side I'm looking at a coolant system I found on the yahoo groups ( https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/4x6bandsaw/files ).  Its nice and simple and seems pretty simple to put together. A bit of fun.



When you get both these sorted come around and sort mine out too please

:thumbup:

Bruce


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> I know that you are using a new blade but check that the teeth on both sides have equal bite. I get this symptom when the blade is due for replacement.
> 
> I doubt that a little out of square should stop your wedding project. I have found it best to tack weld two pieces together with one tack then using a square and hammer make the parts alignment perfect before starting the full welding pass. I have magnets and clamps to hold pieces together but usually something goes wrong so tacking and adjusting works best for my projects. If it's really badly off position the tack is easy to break then start again. With 6013 rods there is lots of molten puddle to fill in any slight gaps.
> 
> These thoughts are assuming a general welding project like a work bench. If you are into high precision and many parts then a jig is required and after the welding process the parts need to be heated to relieve stresses before final machining. I don't do that level of work.



Yup, a bit of gap in my welding projects isn't the end of the world.  Mind you getting the skills to cover it well is a different kettle of fish.  The old angle grinder and hammer got a bit of a work out today. Plus I seriously NEED to get a welding table.  Trying to do this on the floor is killing my knees.  I'm "too old for this >>beep<<".  scratch.gif


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Plus I seriously NEED to get a welding table.  Trying to do this on the floor is killing my knees.  I'm "too old for this >>beep<<".  scratch.gif



Now you have a bandsaw and a welder there is nothing stopping you from making your own table. I got a piece of 10mm plate steel laser cut and while they were at it, I go them to cut 4 plates to mount casters to at the base of the legs and 8 triangular braces something like 100 x 100mm.Then it was up to me to cut the legs and frame from 50 x 50 mm SHS. Some advice I got at the time was to keep at least 50mm overhang past the frame to leave room for G clamps to get a grip. The other handy idea was to incorporate a receiver in the frame to slide in a vice just like you would connect a towbar tongue to the towbar on a car.

Some say the 10mm thick plate is too thin but it is fine for what I do. I figured a thicker top would mean I would not be able to lift it. There will be pics in my shed thread. Pretty sure I made it with a stick welder before I bought a MIG. Every now and again, I give it a rub with an angle grinder and rub it over with a rag dipped with MIG welding nozzle dip.












Here you go a bonus, Finished table and bandsaw table in one pic.





I just left one gusset unpainted and clamp the earth to it. I don't use the vice much but it is handy to store my welding helmet. I often remove it though!


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## DJP

If welding height it a problem for your first project you can attach a small vise to a wooden saw horse. Place the ground clamp on the vise and if you need special clamping a pair of Vise-grips clamped in the vice will work.

It's nice to have all the right fixtures and tools but you can get by with simple approaches. I used the saw horse for a while until a cast iron table top came along. Sometimes luck comes to those who don't rush. The table top was free and it already had a T slot cut in it. Adding legs was easy.

You seem anxious to get a lot done and setting up a shop is important. In my case the shop set up happens along the way while doing a project making it unique to my work habits and needs.  Perhaps that's why it is so cluttered.

Have fun.


----------



## ShopShoe

Please excuse the intrusion, but the sharp corners on both table tops makes me worry you'll get hurt bumping into them. In my case soft tissue and Murphy have come together too often for me to ignore.

No offense intended, please ignore me if you think I'm butting in unnecessarily.

That aside, I really do like both your projects. I gotta make myself a bandsaw table or two myself, but I can't decide between steel and aluminum.

--ShopShoe


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## rodw

ShopShoe said:


> Please excuse the intrusion, but the sharp corners on both table tops makes me worry you'll get hurt bumping into them. In my case soft tissue and Murphy have come together too often for me to ignore.
> 
> No offense intended, please ignore me if you think I'm butting in unnecessarily.
> 
> That aside, I really do like both your projects. I gotta make myself a bandsaw table or two myself, but I can't decide between steel and aluminum.
> 
> --ShopShoe



No offence taken  

So far so good, no injuries to report. It did not make sense to round corners when you might need them to line something up. There is a variation on the saw table that uses a hinged interim mount so the table stays on all the time and can fold up out of the road. I think steel would be better than aluminium as it is stiffer. It just sits in a drawer with stuff stacked on top while not in use.


----------



## ShopShoe

Thanks Rod

--ShopShoe


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## joco-nz

On the welding table front i have been humming and harring over:
(1) building one with a continuous plate top
(2) building a fixture style one ala a stronghand inspired design
(3) or buying a stronghand Nomand portable table

Still not really landed on which way to go.

Re the bandsaw table there are a number of options but this is quite a slick approach.
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/bandsaw-table-and-fence.html

So many things to do and work keeps getting in the way.


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## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> When you get both these sorted come around and sort mine out too please
> Bruce



Its still not as good as it could be, especially having seem images of what people are able cut accuractly with these wee saws.  But it is getting better. I think by the the time i have done this desk build it will okay.  I have a half formed idea in my head for a jig to help accurately and repeably get the blade aligned.  Problem is i need a mill to prototype/build it. Oh well, square, mark I eyeball and patience will need to suffice for a while. 

The more i cut with it the more i like the idea of some coolant system.  Its not necessary, but I can see how it would improve blade life which would probably pay for the simple design i plan to implement over a period of time. 

Such fun.  :thumbup:

Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

This weekend has been one of cutting, welding and most of all, learning.

Such as how tricky stick welding SHS with 3mm thick walls is.  And how EASY it is to blow holes in it!

Anyway we got some sections of 30mmx3mm SHS mild steel cut and welded up. Not the best welding, with lots of grinding to clean things up.

One set of frames for one side of the support for a desk. There will have some 230mm long SHS spacers to join these frames into a box shape that will support one side of a wooden desk top, it is sized to have a wooden shelf at the bottom that will hold an ATX computer case. I'm keeping the joints simple.  When I get my MIG gas I'll try some mitre joints. But not with stick.



Its pretty square, at least good enough for the supports of a simple desk. Not to too bad for my very first welding project ever.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> On the welding table front i have been humming and harring over:
> (1) building one with a continuous plate top
> (2) building a fixture style one ala a stronghand inspired design
> (3) or buying a stronghand Nomand portable table
> 
> Still not really landed on which way to go.
> 
> Re the bandsaw table there are a number of options but this is quite a slick approach.
> http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/bandsaw-table-and-fence.html
> 
> So many things to do and work keeps getting in the way.



Save your money, practice your welding and make a flat plate welding table like I did. If you need to build a jig, just tack weld it to the table top and grind it flat afterwards. At work, for a few repeating jobs, the boys have drilled and tapped holes in their welding bench to hold fixtures.

I looked at the folding bandsaw table and decided that I don't use my saw enough to bother so I can put up with swapping over the table every now and again. For a fence, just clamp a straight edge onto the table top.

There are so many people trying to take your money with shiny objects so resit temptation..





joco-nz said:


> Its still not as good as it could be, especially having seem images of what people are able cut accuractly with these wee saws.  But it is getting better. I think by the the time i have done this desk build it will okay.  I have a half formed idea in my head for a jig to help accurately and repeably get the blade aligned.  Problem is i need a mill to prototype/build it. Oh well, square, mark I eyeball and patience will need to suffice for a while.
> 
> The more i cut with it the more i like the idea of some coolant system.  Its not necessary, but I can see how it would improve blade life which would probably pay for the simple design i plan to implement over a period of time.
> 
> Such fun.  :thumbup:
> 
> Cheers,
> J.



Now you've actually got your saw you will understand more about alignment. In my experience, bandsaw blades break before the teeth wear out. This can be due to poor blade alignment and the blade anneals(work hardens). The evidence will be in the wear marks on the blade. Therefore, Coolant is not required. Each tooth has a long time to cool before it cuts again.

To align your saw try this.

1. Remove the blade, put a straight edge against the pulleys that is long enough to rest on both sides of each pulley. Align the pulleys (hint try spacers on the idler wheel.  You may need a gear puller.

2. Get a 300 mm steel rule and put it between the guide wheels and nip them up so the ruler is held in position where the blade goes. 

3. With the saw down, grab a setsquare and check alignment of the back fence against the ruler. Hold the setsquare so it points upright and lift the blade up and down. Adjust the blade guides so the full flat of the ruler follows the setsqure for its full length.

4. Replace the blade and tighten it as much as you physically can. It will still be under the recommended torque.

Do some test cuts and be prepared to make final adjustments. Following pic shows me getting ready to cut my lathe stand. Mark each guide in this perfect position with witness marks if you like.






I was not happy until I had a square end and could cut a 0.5mm sliver off the RHS.

This process significantly improved my cut accuracy.


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## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Its pretty square, at least good enough for the supports of a simple desk. Not to too bad for my very first welding project ever.
> View attachment 83845



Good work, Magnetic angle brackets help. With squares and rectangles. lay on flat floor and measure the diagonals. Adjust until they are exactly equal, then tack weld, check again before welding out.


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## DJP

If you have a poor weld on a joint clean it up and run another bead over hit just a bit hotter. It saves a lot of grinding to have a nice weld puddle which I consider presentable for rough service items like bench legs. Sometimes grinding takes away strength if there is a small void beneath. I'm OK with a nice bead that is painted. 

Function has always been more important than form for me. Probably because of a farming background where welded structures and machines were for our use only. I you are planning to make and sell bench legs, that's different.

My experience with HSS (Bi-Metal) saw blade life is that teeth do break off and that is the eventual failure point for the blade. I think that they also warp as an old blade will not cut straight and when loaded it will hop off the big blade tension wheels. Install a new blade and all the problems disappear. I agree that the blade doesn't get hot enough to justify a coolant system as my saw mostly cuts small stock. I get better results on my lathe with a bit of cutting oil so I do the same for the saw. Habit I guess.

+1 on double checking dimensions after tack welding.  Measure twice weld once.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Good work, Magnetic angle brackets help. With squares and rectangles. lay on flat floor and measure the diagonals. Adjust until they are exactly equal, then tack weld, check again before welding out.



Cool! :thumbup:

Exactly what I did.  PHEW - an old dog can be taught!


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> If you have a poor weld on a joint clean it up and run another bead over hit just a bit hotter. It saves a lot of grinding to have a nice weld puddle which I consider presentable for rough service items like bench legs. Sometimes grinding takes away strength if there is a small void beneath. I'm OK with a nice bead that is painted.



My issue has more been with trying not to blow holes in the 3mm tube.  I'm using 2.4mm 6013 rods and I'm running them down at the very lower limit recommended by the manufacturer and things still get to hot. The bead runs are also only 30mm long. 

As a result I have sod all time to get comfortable with the pool shape once the arch is going. Cose if I hang around too much bam - hole. Equally if I go to slow things heat up way to much which is always a risk near the end of the bead, bam - hole.

Anyway, I've had to grind to clean up my "rebuild" work and some rushed beads that started on target but wandered.

While I don't believe MIG will be a silver bullet I suspect it will allow me to control the heat a little better. Got to get ass into gear and get that argoshield.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Save your money, practice your welding and make a flat plate welding table like I did. If you need to build a jig, just tack weld it to the table top and grind it flat afterwards. At work, for a few repeating jobs, the boys have drilled and tapped holes in their welding bench to hold fixtures.


Ok that can work.  Not sure from memory what size your table is. I've been pondering something around 800mm X 1600mm in size.  That's going to be be a very heavy slab of steel. Which was partly why I had started thinking of a slat model. Just to manage the handling challenge. Or I might just have to reduce the size or do a half and half. Half plate and half slats. Hmm.  Clearly some more thinking needed on this front. 




> Now you've actually got your saw you will understand more about alignment. In my experience, bandsaw blades break before the teeth wear out. This can be due to poor blade alignment and the blade anneals(work hardens). The evidence will be in the wear marks on the blade. Therefore, Coolant is not required. Each tooth has a long time to cool before it cuts again.


Understand that, but on the work hardening front, is that caused by heat? I'm a little new to this stuff so feel free to point me to good texts to read as re this. It's quite possible I have the book already but just not gotten to it yet.

In all honesty the coolant is as much my habit of modding stuff.  But the flushing action on the cut might be useful. The parts are also a nice little proof of concept for what I can use to drive coolant on a lathe and mill. 



> To align your saw try this.
> 
> 1. Remove the blade, put a straight edge against the pulleys that is long enough to rest on both sides of each pulley. Align the pulleys (hint try spacers on the idler wheel.  You may need a gear puller..



I'm clear on the other steps. Just to make sure re #1, this alignment is about moving the pulley in/out on its axis, yes? Do you use the saw frame the pulleys are mounted on as the reference point for alignment? Or some other approach?


----------



## DJP

joco-nz said:


> My issue has more been with trying not to blow holes in the 3mm tube.  I'm using 2.4mm 6013 rods and I'm running them down at the very lower limit recommended by the manufacturer and things still get to hot. The bead runs are also only 30mm long.
> 
> As a result I have sod all time to get comfortable with the pool shape once the arch is going. Cose if I hang around too much bam - hole. Equally if I go to slow things heat up way to much which is always a risk near the end of the bead, bam - hole.
> 
> Anyway, I've had to grind to clean up my "rebuild" work and some rushed beads that started on target but wandered.
> 
> While I don't believe MIG will be a silver bullet I suspect it will allow me to control the heat a little better. Got to get ass into gear and get that argoshield.



This may be sacrilege to the pro welders but if you don't have smaller rods try cutting a plain steel nail the same length as your weld joint. Place the nail in the joint and this extra metal in the puddle may help prevent burn through. For really thin material I weld in little bursts. For your weld consider making 4 or 5 small weeds stopping between each to let it set. Once these tacks are in place weld over them in one pass for a nicer finish.

Smaller rods and reduced current will help but then you may need multiple passes. 

One more thought... if you can weld with the joint on a slight angle so that the puddle and heat go to the corner section of the tubing where it can dissipate more heat. The thin cut edge section wont be taking too much heat this way. 

My philosophy has been that even an ugly weld can have strength.


----------



## DJP

Auto spell correction is a nuisance....'weeds' should be 'welds' in my previous post.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> This may be sacrilege to the pro welders but if you don't have smaller rods try cutting a plain steel nail the same length as your weld joint. Place the nail in the joint and this extra metal in the puddle may help prevent burn through. For really thin material I weld in little bursts. For your weld consider making 4 or 5 small weeds stopping between each to let it set. Once these tacks are in place weld over them in one pass for a nicer finish.
> 
> Smaller rods and reduced current will help but then you may need multiple passes.
> 
> One more thought... if you can weld with the joint on a slight angle so that the puddle and heat go to the corner section of the tubing where it can dissipate more heat. The thin cut edge section wont be taking too much heat this way.
> 
> My philosophy has been that even an ugly weld can have strength.


Cheers.  I'll try the angle approach. I had started the multiple tack approach near the end.

Re the angle approach I wonder which way to look at it.  I would think we want the weld puddle to flow into the joint from the solid metal to the tube edge? On that basis what is the correct way to orientate the joint per your comment. When I get home tonight I'll lay out a couple of configs with a rod placed, take some pics, post em and hopefully I can get some hints on which config might be better.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

2 or 2.5mm rods are correct for 3mm wall tube.After practice you should not be burning thru 3mm thick unless your amps are too high.Recommended  settings mean nothing,reduce your amps until its obviose they are too low with lots of sticking,then increase gradually until it feels right.Take note of setting per rod size.This can then vary slightly with a no of different factors,but its too early for you to worry about that yet.You would normally run the weld straight down the middle (WHEN THE METALS ARE OF = THICKNESS ) IN this case run the weld over to the side of the rad and thick wall letting the pool overlap to the thin edge,you will soon be able to weave side to side slightly,as in this scenario the rad of the tube forms a natural weld prep and needs more metal puddle to fill,this means slower feed ,more heat hence blow holes
Try tacking with alternate short stitchs then run a final weld over the lot.Its trial and error
and practice .I spent 2 weeks welding bits of scrap of all thicknesses in all positions in a huge sculpture.You soon learn.TRY INCLINING THE JOB AT @20o
towards you for the final weld,this reduces the heat and means you have to increase the feed slightly.For thin matls say 1 to 1.5mm thk I increase the incline to almost 45o. Regards barry


----------



## XD351

The main issue is that the tube has a radius on the corners which is the same as a bevel on one piece .
You don't want this as a bevel is what you want when you need more penetration .
You can as mentioned use a nail as filler or knock the flux off a rod with a hammer and use that or try starting your weld in the middle and run to one edge , do a couple of the other joints then come back and weld from the other edge to the middle where you started the first weld .
It's sort of like a skip weld sequence and i usually bias the arc a little toward the  radius on the tube - not much say 5 - 10  deg just to stop burning the end of the tube away also i tend to stand the rod up more to 90 deg so less lead angle .
The other option is to set the tube up and contour the ends so they follow around the radius , real PIA to do as you have to allow for it when cutting the tube etc .
If you have a mig use it for this sort of stuff , life is too short to spend your time pulling hair out !


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> TRY INCLINING THE JOB AT @20o
> towards you for the final weld,this reduces the heat and means you have to increase the feed slightly.For thin matls say 1 to 1.5mm thk I increase the incline to almost 45o. Regards barry



Sorry Barry I'm going to be thick.  When you say inclined "towards you" is it (where 'P' == person and '/' or '\' == direction of incline):

P /

or 

P \

Then depending on which is the correct one where would I be approaching the work with the electrode?  If '->' is the direction of approach would it be ...

P \ <-

or 

P ->\

or something else.   Yeah, its been a long day at the office and I'm proper brain fried. Need beer.


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> 2 or 2.5mm rods are correct for 3mm wall tube.After practice you should not be burning thru 3mm thick unless your amps are too high.Recommended  settings mean nothing,reduce your amps until its obviose they are too low with lots of sticking,then increase gradually until it feels right.slower feed ,more heat hence blow holes



Barry - THANKYOU.  Virtual beer to that man.

Looked up mild steel, 2.4mm 6013 rod on the Miller.com calculators.  40-90amp was there recomendation.  Ok, lets start at 40amps.  Only 30amps less than BOC's recommednation.  Can strike an arc, keep it going and run a bead.  A little challenging to keep things going but, managed it.  Upped to 45amps.  Easy to start and keep going.  On the 30x3mm SHS the bead looked a little cold. Went to 50amps, bead seems to look good. PROGRESS!  :thumbup:

Also tried putting a small tack where the end of the bead would end, right on the edge of the tube.  The spot I would often blow through. Then run a bead to it.  BINGO, clean finish to the bead, easy to spot where to stop and no overheat/blow through.  WIN.

AND I have beer.


----------



## bazmak

Thats great,this is called the learning process.Incline is down towards you
Also after tacking at the start point strike the arc over the edge so the initial blast is away from the job then start the weld and hesitate a second to build up a bead
.At the finish go to the end and then reverse back a couple of mms.This increases the weld profile at beginning and end
When welding thinner steel and the work is inclined sloping down towards you
the flux pool tries to catch up with your weld.DONT LET IT.the flux should always be trying which helps subdue the arc


----------



## joco-nz

Been looking at the bandsaw again tonight and noticed that on the bottom wheel, that is driven my the motor, there is a ~2mm gap between the "shoulder" on the wheel and the back of the blade.  When looking at the idler wheel the back of the blade is flush with this shoulder.  Should I be looking to adjust things so the bottom wheel has the blade running flush with the shoulder?   If I should adjust is the method to adjust the "angle" of the idler wheel?
Never having had a bandsaw of any form I'm flying a bit blind.  I also did a search on youtube but haven't found conclusive footage on what to do.

Actually, this might be the answer.


Cheers,
James.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Been looking at the bandsaw again tonight and noticed that on the bottom wheel, that is driven my the motor, there is a ~2mm gap between the "shoulder" on the wheel and the back of the blade.  When looking at the idler wheel the back of the blade is flush with this shoulder.  Should I be looking to adjust things so the bottom wheel has the blade running flush with the shoulder?   If I should adjust is the method to adjust the "angle" of the idler wheel?
> Never having had a bandsaw of any form I'm flying a bit blind.  I also did a search on youtube but haven't found conclusive footage on what to do.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.



This is probably highlighting the issue that I covered in point 1 on the previous page. Sorry I missed your question about it. Sounds like the top pulley needs to be moved out to align the pulleys with the straight edge. I used a scrap of aluminium angle iron that I cut so it would fit inside the saw and long enough to reach both sides of each pulley. The top pulley needs to be aligned with the bottom. You may be able undo the securing bolt and used a gear puller to pull the top pulley out. I think I managed to use a few washers to space the bearing forward of the adjustment slides.  The top pulley also has some alignment adjustment on the non cutting side. Hope that makes sense.


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## goldstar31

I suspect that I am repeating myself- and as this a 'freebie', feel a little annoyed.
I have said that you have a 6 x4 metal cutting bandsaw and regardless what your supplier or country is calling it, it is a 6 x4 bandsaw and has been that for decades. I'm on my second one. get that!

As such the information is probably excessive! Arguably, the article by John Pitkin -which runs to 9 pages should be followed.
Pitkin writes clearly and succinctly and fills in the missing gaps which the other contributors have omitted. 

For my offering, I have added that as the blade needs to be twisted- Heaven knows why- I have recommended that final alignment of the blade is done by using two simple clamps which should be parallel to each other and vertical which means   at right angles to the body of the  machine.

It's cheap, it's crude, it's simple and once done, it is like riding a bike.


----------



## joco-nz

Read through the Pitkin missive and began looking at the saw with that procedure in mind and decided that starting on that path was a bit much for last night.  So ... we made sparks instead.

First frame for desk.  Still not fully welded as I ran out of time. BUT to my surprise and delight when I put a level across the top corner to corner and across the centres of the sides its FLAT on the floor. :thumbup:


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Read through the Pitkin missive and began looking at the saw with that procedure in mind and decided that starting on that path was a bit much for last night.


 
A massive missive:hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

Okay started the process to tune up the bandsaw.   Didn't get much time this weekend due to family demands but I managed to get some basics done.

Removed the blade and the guides from the saw to allow for assessing how co-planer the two pulleys are. Also to dial in the correct tracking a little later.

Checked that the lower wheel had no play in it - all seems solid.

Checked that the upper wheel has no play on the shaft. By this I mean the fit is nice and close but still allows free turning.  However there is a little bit of play "in and out". The pulley does not have enough packing behind or in front of it.

Found some SHS aluminium that I had about to act as a straight edge and cut it to a length the would fit within the saw frame and clamped it to the bottom pulley using some spring clamps.



Then used the straight edge as a reference to ensure the top pulley was parallel to the lower one then checked measurement top and bottom of the pulley to [a] see that is parallel and to straight edge and * to see what the offset is.
Looks to be 2mm.



Started to dismantle pulley and looks to be pretty simple. No snap retaining rings or anything, just the screw/washer combo.



There is a spacer behind the pulley that holds it out.  So when I get my lathe I could turn something new that was the exact correct width to space the pulley. In the mean time I need to get 2mm worth of packing. That should bring things to zero offset per the Pitkin checklist.

*


----------



## DJP

I know that my saw has lots of play in the idler/tensioner pulley but when tightened against the blade is tracks OK. I have a feeling that the more critical tuning happens at the blade holders with guide bearings. I used to adjust the holders up tight to the work piece being cut to minimize blade twist and better vertical cuts.  It didn't help so not I just leave everything set to max and renew the blade when it gets worn and starts to wander.

I don't consider this saw to be a precision machine tool and for my use to cut small pieces off longer stock it does the job.

However, I am curious to see if you can measure improvement from this tuning so keep going.


----------



## joco-nz

Did the alignment tonight, got the wheels parallel and zero improvement on tracking.  In fact if anything the tracking on the lower wheel got worse. So I when back to the status quo and with the top pulley tracking perfectly ie the blade is barely touching the pulley shoulder and this is what the lower pulley looks like.   A ~4mm gap to the shoulder.  However it does not get any worse or better.  It just sits there in this position as the saw runs.



From searching the Yahoo group I have seen mention of adjusting the lower pulley out by at least the amount of the gap.  However if I do that I will have to remove the clip ring.  Not to keen on that. So the converse would be to adjust the upper pulley inward.  This from the Pitkin guide:


> When the upper wheel tilt is correct, check the blade position on the LOWER wheel. The blade should just touch the lower wheel flange. If the blade is too far away from the LOWER flange or hard against the LOWER flange, repeat the offset adjustment by moving the upper wheel in or out on the shaft to correct the blade position, and start over.


So, looks like I need to get a couple of big washers. Found some 5/8" ones at Bunnings that are 3mm thick. The current spacer is 9mm , so a couple of these will allow me to try settings at 3 and 6mm before resorting to some card or plastic shims.

I also noticed that the wheels do not look to be the most round looking castings under the sun.   It looks like the centre hole is ok, just that the rim could do with a skim.  Something to look at again when I get the lathe.

Edit:   Had a snoop about the garage and found two of said washers and tried them. BINGO - we have a winner.  Lower pulley now tracking dang near perfect from what I can tell. Will take that win and call it a night.  woohoo1


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Edit:   Had a snoop about the garage and found two of said washers and tried them. BINGO - we have a winner.  Lower pulley now tracking dang near perfect from what I can tell. Will take that win and call it a night.  woohoo1



Great work. I have worked through the Pitkin missive myself. I do have an extension to his method. The idea I suggested getting it aligned from where you are now with a steel ruler between the guide rollers and a Set square will get you closer a lot quicker than any other method.

I'm afraid my 6 x 4 is quite a dim memory now as my current bandsaw (linked to in this thread) was perfectly aligned from the get go. I recently consigned my old 6 x 4 carcass to the dump after it rusted for a few years while I worked out what to do with it..


----------



## goldstar31

I set the clearance between the rollers- as per the book. Again, I set the blade to run vertically, in and out of the cutting area with properly aligned clamps to each other. Merely a corollary to the Six Proposition of Euclid- rather than the Gospel according to someone in rightful obscurity  called A.N.Other.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Great work. I have worked through the Pitkin missive myself. I do have an extension to his method. The idea I suggested getting it aligned from where you are now with a steel ruler between the guide rollers and a Set square will get you closer a lot quicker than any other method.



Having played with the alignment bearings originally I realise how fiddly it is i.e. As soon as you listen the bolt it's very easy to lose your setting.

So, with the ruler method, with no blade installed, I presume you are not setting the distance for the bearing that rides just over the top of the blade.  On that basis how do you keep your angle adjustment when setting that height with the blade installed.  I had a real fight with that part.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Having played with the alignment bearings originally I realise how fiddly it is i.e. As soon as you listen the bolt it's very easy to lose your setting.
> 
> So, with the ruler method, with no blade installed, I presume you are not setting the distance for the bearing that rides just over the top of the blade.  On that basis how do you keep your angle adjustment when setting that height with the blade installed.  I had a real fight with that part.



The ruler just gives you a larger alignment surface to place against the set square for both the backguage and up and down. It makes it much easier to see whats going on without fighting the spring in the tensioned  blade. I also found the teeth of the blade do not let you get the square up against the blade anyway. You still need to fine tune with the blade installed to get straight cuts.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> The ruler just gives you a larger alignment surface to place against the set square for both the backguage and up and down. It makes it much easier to see whats going on without fighting the spring in the tensioned  blade. I also found the teeth of the blade do not let you get the square up against the blade anyway. You still need to fine tune with the blade installed to get straight cuts.



Cheers Rob.  Will give it a whirl and see how we go.


----------



## goldstar31

Being a simple soul, Children's plastic squares are as cheap as chips and after all, cutting a notch to avoid the saw  kerf set is - or should be, obvious.

When you come to having a mill, you will find that setting a vertical with a 'proper' steel square will be difficult unless you carve a chunk out  for your particular vice/vise. Remember wet behind the ears apprentices  'made' their squares. I was never an apprentice- but made one. 

Writing about 'childrens' drawing instruments, I once squared a Myford lathe that would not turn anything but bananas, with a couple of plastic squares. The test is putting them to together and into the light. Again I don't smoke( now) but I have cigarette papers as part of my measuring tackle. The spittle to hold them down isn't obligatory.


----------



## rodw

goldstar31 said:


> Being a simple soul, Children's plastic squares are as cheap as chips and after all, cutting a notch to avoid the saw  kerf set is - or should be, obvious.



Except you can't raise and lower the blade through its entire travel to check for square like that. I know some of that is related to the accuracy of the pivot point but the adjustment of the blade plays its part too.


----------



## joco-nz

Right, the final alignment saga.  After looking at others approaches, some pondering of my own plus some inspiration from a cool little alignment tool design I stumbled across online the following is what I did.  The "Walker" method. oh:

[1] Found my little 150mm steel rule and using spring clothes line pegs clipped to the blade.  The edge of the rule is sitting above where the blade teeth flare out.  Using this approach we get two benefits.
[a] the pegs make it easier to see the level of twist you applying to the blade as their extra length magnifies the change.
* the metal rule increases the surface area to check against a square.








After some fiddling around with twist and setting the bearing guides correctly then ensuring things are square to the fence. In this case I decided to change the fence to be square to the blade.  Much easier to adjust it that way from what I can see.  Then we start some test cutting.   First off on some 2x2 wood.  Good results.
Side A.


Side B.


Things are looking really good here.  Didn't do anymore changes and went straight to testing on metal.

Test cuts on some 30x3mm SHS mild steel.  Very happy with these results.  This is using the stock blade that came with the saw.  I did a few more cuts on this stock and continued to get good results.
Side A.


Side B.



All in all an improvement and based on what I had before definitely measurable.  Before this process I had a clearly identifiable angle which I did some quick changes to correct but then still had some angle and even a slight weave in the cut.  Now its really straight and square.

Cheers,
James.*


----------



## goldstar31

I'm really delighted! I made my alignment jigs -from scrap and set more or less by eye. Been at it a loooooong time! But obviously, your set up is correct for you. I am one of an old brigade who does things by feel or sight.

So now, you have committed your own way to experience, for a time when you will be checking your future lathe for accuracy. I look forward to read your future exploits.


----------



## rodw

Awesome result. Now you have it cutting straight there will be no stopping you! Looks almost like a precision tool now.

I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!


----------



## goldstar31

rodw said:


> I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!


 
Mine is or was dead cheap -almost the cost of a 6 x4 blade and cuts 'ally' 
Again, I have standing circular saw for wood. Again, dead cheap and with 2 blades.

Again, my arc set was 'el cheapo' but we Limeys can buy from places like Aldi and Lidl which have yet to descend on Kiwi-land.

Sadly, you good folks seemed to be always getting ripped off- pricewise.

Personally, I think that 'we' are being ripped off as I am sort of part of the Far East community- internationally and get some quite exiting  business opportunities. :hDe:

Too old at 86+ 

Regards

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers gents. Now i have straight cuts its back to the welding project.  But a little bird tells me a local supplier of lathes and mills is having a sale in mid september. Its going to be an expensive month. :thumbup:

Of course while I know what lathe I'm after I have really only given scratched the surface thinking about a mill.   I've seen a Luxcut (BF20L equivalent) in the flesh in CNC form (Thanks Bruce) and that looked pretty good so a BF20LV goes around NZD 2000. I looked at the MH28V which while meater still has the same side (versus top) mounted collumn. So dont see much material advantage in it.  Seen the Sieg and the SX3 is just expensive in NZ, a tad over NZD 3000. After that you start getting into the likes of the HM-46, 47 and 48 series kit with the associated climbing price tag.

Now bering in mind that Bridgport and the like are hens teeth (from what I can see) in NZ so I am pretty much constrained to the chinese imports. So any views, experiences, advice welcome.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Awesome result. Now you have it cutting straight there will be no stopping you! Looks almost like a precision tool now.
> 
> I have no idea why people insist on buying chopsaws to cut steel when these are so cheap!



Agree.  The best deal I could find on such a saw with the metal blades was circa $980 NZD. Maybe it will cut faster, maybe straighter with less fuss. But that $400 saving is metal stock and tools I couldn't otherwise get.


----------



## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> Cheers gents. Now i have straight cuts its back to the welding project.  But a little bird tells me a local supplier of lathes and mills is having a sale in mid september. Its going to be an expensive month. :thumbup:
> 
> Of course while I know what lathe I'm after I have really only given scratched the surface thinking about a mill.   I've seen a Luxcut (BF20L equivalent) in the flesh in CNC form (Thanks Bruce) and that looked pretty good so a BF20LV goes around NZD 2000. I looked at the MH28V which while meater still has the same side (versus top) mounted collumn. So dont see much material advantage in it.  Seen the Sieg and the SX3 is just expensive in NZ, a tad over NZD 3000. After that you start getting into the likes of the HM-46, 47 and 48 series kit with the associated climbing price tag.
> 
> Now bering in mind that Bridgport and the like are hens teeth (from what I can see) in NZ so I am pretty much constrained to the chinese imports. So any views, experiences, advice welcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.



Ok so now time for another visit to my workshop to share your knowledge on setting up a saw. I'll supply the pegs, 150mm ruler, coffee and probably baking.

:thumbup:

Bruce


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## joco-nz

BF20LV
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/M650




Price is reasonable, size is about right, a little bigger/heavier would be nice but this is a starting machine and I have seen lots of material on CNCing it. And I am really keen to eventually CNC it. On that basis something like this will be a reasonable DRO setup until I go CNC.






But there is a good list of accessories I will need to gather to support the Mill and for that matter the Lathe as well.

I want to create as many of the tools I will need myself as I can.  Essentially a self imposed apprenticeship. Im not in a made hurry to start building engines, Im quite comfortable learning some base skills by making tools (clamps, vice etc). The aim being to work through many of the items talked about in a number of the Workshop Series books.

So, with that in mind I really would appreciate some advice on what base things I will need and also where I should look to source these from (bearing in mind Im in NZ) so as to have a sensible mix of quality and price.

Thanks,
James


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## XD351

Don't waste your money on those cheap dro units they are crap !
I fitted one to my sieg  x2 mill and after a few months i had problems with the micro usb fitting coming loose and then they seemed to get a mind of their own and the reading on the display changed to something else .
If you are going to convert to cnc later i would learn to use the dials on the machine and save the money for the conversion .
I ended up importing a unit from the dro store in china , its a tight squeeze to get the scale on the x& y axis but it did eventually fit ok and it is reliable and accurate .
I wouldn't use one of those units from hare and forbes on  a broken drill press !


----------



## joco-nz

Ok. I'm not wedded to the DROs.


----------



## DJP

I went in another direction by purchasing old machines that are still functional. Some are as old as I am but they still can do useful work. A classic 'Canadian drill press, a 1940s Southbend 9 inch lathe and an old Cincinnati Burke mill. The controls are manual and the inch scales match the old callipers and gauges that came in a machinist's box. The machines purchases also included a fortune in extra optional parts and lots and lots of tooling. Old timers are giving up their workshops and very few people are interested.  

I work slowly and most of my projects are prototypes so old machines are OK for me.

If I was to invest in future technology it would be 3D printing. Using the old machines the way that they were initially intended suits me just fine.

A thought for your consideration.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> I went in another direction by purchasing old machines that are still functional. Some are as old as I am but they still can do useful work. A classic 'Canadian drill press, a 1940s Southbend 9 inch lathe and an old Cincinnati Burke mill. The controls are manual and the inch scales match the old callipers and gauges that came in a machinist's box. The machines purchases also included a fortune in extra optional parts and lots and lots of tooling. Old timers are giving up their workshops and very few people are interested.
> 
> I work slowly and most of my projects are prototypes so old machines are OK for me.
> 
> If I was to invest in future technology it would be 3D printing. Using the old machines the way that they were initially intended suits me just fine.
> 
> A thought for your consideration.



Thanks for the thoughts.  On the 3D printing front do we have viable metal 3D printers now?  I have built a plastic extrusion Reprap but I have lost sight of where the metal deposit tech has gotten to and how accessible it is to the home user.

Re older machines: I'm not adverse to reconditioning older kit.  I'm just not sure I want to start out having to do it.  Call me chicken.  

Heck once I have some skills the idea of having something from the "good old days" to recondition has appeal as a project and I can easily see myself having a CNC mill and a manual mill just so I can do things without having to go via the computer.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## DJP

My old machines did not need refurbishment. They had some usage wear but nothing that I couldn't deal with. I keep pouring oil to them and they seem to like it. The only addition was a drip tray on the lathe bench. These old machine have very rugged designs so I expect them to out last me.

I still need to change gears to cut threads so some minor automation would be appreciated but as I said, I can deal with it. Best of all were the boxes and boxes of chucks, rests, collets and tooling that came with each machine. It would have cost a fortune to replace these things today and many of the tool bits and measurement instruments are high quality English or USA made.

At times I envy a new and bigger machine but keeping the devil that I know is best, in my opinion.

You only need to make a few parts to get comfortable with any machine and that comfort level generates confidence to make more parts. Whatever machines you buy, my advice is to use them every day to practise a skill even if you are not making a useful part. Confidence beats the latest high technology.


----------



## grapegro

Hello James,
                 I have the smaller model Optimum mill, BF17 ,these would be the best quality for money without doubt in my book. I fitted a complete dro to my mill and cannot be happier. I imported mine direct from the Chinese manufacturer. I used glass scales, in mini size, available from Delos Electrical Science and Technology Co Ltd, model no for the scales was DLSW. Dimensions are 21.5 x 33.5 by length required. The read out panel is very comprehensive and will save a lot of mistakes with its accurate formatting. I cannot see how to post a picture of my unit to this message so will send it in another .
  Norm


----------



## goldstar31

I thought that DJP's views on old tooling were valuable. I didn't tick the 'Like' box because it was worth more!

If you read another posting about 'crap' motors on modern imported lathes and mills and the frequency( ouch) of blow ups, you should be worried. If you really think about things and not be carried away by 'today's gizmos' you will find that most of the engines and whatever were originally constructed using a lathe and a drilling machine. For the 'helluv- it', I bought a little Myford ML10 which is half my age- I'm 86+ and this came with the ability to have only SIX speeds and all that it had was plain cast iron bearings. In other words, it is 'All our yesterdays'. It had two faults primarily. One was a switch which contained asbestos and the other was that it has a cracked tumbler bracket which was non standard anyway. I'm struggling a bit trying to repair it but at the end of the day, I don't do a lot of screwcutting LEFT hand threads.  I do them when the Moon is full and it's midnight and the vampires are coming out for a blood transfusion. In other words, I'm chasing Moonbeams!
So what came with the 'box of tricks'? In a box came a load of half inch lathe tools. My experience suggests that this size is a touch- a big touch- from being really useful on a baby lathe. Again, there is a QCTP which is a gnat's cock too tall for the lathe. A.N. Other got them on - on a bad day. They'll fit my bigger lathe but if you haven't a bigger lathe------ you have an answer.

OK, I can find a couple or three bits of plate and can make a 4 way tool post with saw, my drill and my screwing tackle. No issue except time! In my box of goodies was a 'Cleeve' swing tool holder. It isn't quite the thing as would be fashionable today but 'Martin Cleeve' wrote about it in his posthumous book 'Screwcutting in the Lathe'. It bores holes and doesn't waste much time in measurement because it lifts  out of the way. However, it doesn't need packing or whatever and the height can be adjusted for the correct cut. Laughingly, it was made out of a few bits of square steel and a few home made nuts and bolts.  Eventually, I'll convert it to a retracting screwcutting tool. 

Then DRO's. It hasn't got any. However, someone - before the last incumbent converted the very basic  slides to lock. 'He' whoever he was bid rather better and made adjustable dials which lock. He could have, I suppose, have gone a little further and converted them to Verniers by the old expedient of 9's and 10's out of M. Vernier from Ornans in the Jura and got 'Tenths of Thous.  Remember this is a 'sh1te little lathe. 

My first tests were worrying because it wouldn't face properly. I traced the fault to an 'Arris' or several because some comedian had been 'parting off' with a hacksaw and kept hitting the bed.  There was a rear parting tool in the box of goodies but it was crude and probably he didn't know how to use it. The cure was to remove each arris with a Nicholson finest file out of my late wife's orthodontic box and then a rub over with fairly smooth Arkansas stone.  It took longer to strip the bits and clean than 'restore' accuracy.

The next thing was a three jaw self centring chuck. Not any old one but one peppered with holes. Clearly the detent bracket  was not from a ML10 but a spare bit of metal will enable pretty accurate dividing in the lathe using it. Hilariously, the lathe has a 65 bull wheel and with  a bit of school boy maths, I can do differential indexing!

To add to my enjoyment, I found another Potts milling and drilling spindle. I have now three and with a bit of time, can do ornamental turning - or merely cam grinding!

Amongst the contents of Pandora's Box, I found a set of sweep face cutters to go on the faceplate. Again, there was a vertical slide and vice and so on.

Of course, there is a catchplate, a faceplate, a 4 jaw, a fixed steady and a running one.

For £500, not bad, eh?

Funny thing- no one was rushing with a roll of notes to beat an old man to it.

Food for thought, James?

Regards

Norman


----------



## goldstar31

The original drawings for  gives Cleeve are on the 'net under Popular Mechanics April 1976 page 113 but a more recent version is in Hemingwaykits web site.

In addition the latter gives lots of DIY stuff for construction.  No business connection except that the previous owner helped me along my way in a distant past.


----------



## joco-nz

Ooo SALE is on EARLY!  TOOLS!!   :thumbup:

https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L141
https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/M650


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## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> The original drawings for  gives Cleeve are on the 'net under Popular Mechanics April 1976 page 113 but a more recent version is in Hemingwaykits web site.
> 
> In addition the latter gives lots of DIY stuff for construction.  No business connection except that the previous owner helped me along my way in a distant past.



Thanks. I found the relevant article here ( https://archive.org/stream/PopularMechanics1976/Popular Mechanics-04-1976#page/n106/mode/1up ) and have saved the relevant page down to my plans folder.  Dang that folder is starting to get busy!


----------



## goldstar31

Glad to help. It is what we are here for! Cleeve used two at times.
There is an interesting development because Thomas wrote on how to make and  adjust boring tools- using split collets( cut on your 6 x 4 saw, perhaps) and these fit the Cleeve which minimises overlong boring bores and also utilises more delicate cutters like 1/8th- 3mm round variety. 

Again, it does suggest that if an eccentric pin is used, it will do retracting- for screwcutting.

Sorry about your folder but just concentrate on the simple construction ( and cheap) topics

Regards

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

Heh - a little provocative perhaps but last night I was cutting up some more 30x3mm SHS for the next stage of the welding project and the cuts started to go off square.   Very odd.  Checked all the alignments, they are bang on.  Nothing has moved. The feed rate is unchanged, still using some cutting oil to help things along.

After some reading on various forums the likely conclusion is that the blade is blunt.   It is the original blade that came with the saw so its not the best blade but I thought it would last a bit longer.   So emergency purchase tomorrow of a bimetal blade.  Going to cost me $16 more than if I had the time to order it online.  Oh well :fan: happens.


----------



## joco-nz

Norman - As you have been around the block a bit, are these reference texts on model engines from Hemingway Kits worthwhile?
http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Engine_Refences.html

Or are they just packaging up something that is readily available elsewhere?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

Basically, Yes and No! The texts may well be in a book form but probably will have appeared perhaps in Model Engineer in a series of articles. Westbury was, if you recall, the editor. Unless you have the Model Engineer issues, buying the book is the way to go.

Does this help, please?


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks Norman.  Given how far back those articles might be it could well be easier to just buy the books.  I'll have to have a hunt through the indexes.  But Mr Westbury seems to have been pretty prolific over the years.


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Thanks Norman. Given how far back those articles might be it could well be easier to just buy the books. I'll have to have a hunt through the indexes. But Mr Westbury seems to have been pretty prolific over the years.


 
happy to help but E.T.Westbury also wrote under a number of pen names as well. 

I suspect that he was Artificer, Exactus, 'Ned' and you'll forgive me but I'm forgetting all or most.

What you had was what Shakespeare would have described as a 'Nest of Singing Birds' with Marshall House as the sort of head with ETW, Sparey, Chaddock, Thomas, Tubal Cain, Bradley and Hallows as themselves and as Duplex and of course, Curly Lawrence as LBSC. Again, your own Jack Radford and Thomas were mates with GHT going to visit JAR in NZ.
Probably there was Neville Shute Norway writing as Neville Shute and his Trustee from the Tool Room was obviously 'Ned' Westbury.


----------



## joco-nz

Got a new bimetal blade today, 18tpi, which seems to work well on the 3mm walled SHS I have been cutting.  I'll get another blade for dealing with solid stock in the coming weeks.

But the I was right, new blade and I am back to cutting nice and straight. As an added precaution I have slowed the saw to its lowest setting.  Hopefully the bimetal blade will do a lot better than the cheapie carbide one that came with the saw.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

Today managed to get by argoshield gas.  Was a bit lucky as the local supplier who open in the weekend said they had none when I called.  But on a hunch I headed on down anyway and got them to actually LOOK.  Once people used their eyes we find a lonely D bottle of argoshield in a corner shelf.

So, a MIG welding we will go!

Was going ok, but dang, couldnt see anything.  Was I doing something wrong?  I muddled through for a bit but really doing beads blind.

I happened to have bought a cigweld helemt for by son so he could learn with me.  I tried it.  OH GOD, was like night and day, I could see EVERYTHING. :thumbup:  SO much easier to weld, beads started to look like what I saw people doing on videos.  Well sometimes they did. I have a bit of a consistency issue. To be expected I guess after only have a max of 15mins actualy continuous MIG weld time.

What was wrong with my helmet?  Ok, hand up for the blonde moment.
I pulled all the lenses off my helmet and noticed I had missed taking one of the protetcive films off the inside lens! IDIOT.  :wall:  :rant:  oh:

So, lets just say I fixed this little issue, tried some more welds and enjoyed the fact I could see what the >>favourate expletive<< was going on.

I'm sure there's a moral to this story but I'm not feeling particulary qualified tonight to identify it.  

Cheers,
"Embarrased".


----------



## Blogwitch

Don't assume, check!!!

No need to be embarrassed, we ALL make mistakes like this, unless of course you are the one who can walk on water.

I made the same sort of mistake with my auto darkening mask, I had the dial settings wrong, couldn't see a thing. Didn't make much difference though, I still couldn't get a decent run out of it. I was given my MIG welder by a chap who won it in a raffle, and all the bits to go with it, all brand new. No destructions came with it and couldn't get the correct manual anywhere, so don't know how to set it up correctly, so I have gone back to stick welding, much better now.

John


----------



## Dalee

Blogwitch said:


> Don't assume, check!!!
> 
> No destructions came with it and couldn't get the correct manual anywhere, so don't know how to set it up correctly, so I have gone back to stick welding, much better now.
> 
> John



Hi,

Yep, made many, many such mistakes in the past. And I'm pretty sure I've got a bunch I need to make yet!

For your Mig, just plug it in, turn it on, and use. The amperages and wire feed speeds are quite variable.

Generally speaking, the higher the amperage, the faster your wire speed needs to be. If you burn through, turn down the heat. Then listen to the arc to set wire speed. It needs to sound like frying bacon. Play until happy.

Dalee


----------



## joco-nz

YouTuber ChuckE2009 has some good videos on how to mig wel, including other processes. I've found them to be rather useful, others might as well.


----------



## grapegro

Hello James,
                  The photos of my DRO should be attached. Cost was around A$460 and delivery about 3 days. All manuals and fitting instructions included. Could not ask for better service, equipment or operation.


----------



## Blogwitch

Dalee said:


> Hi,
> 
> For your Mig, just plug it in, turn it on, and use. The amperages and wire feed speeds are quite variable.
> 
> Generally speaking, the higher the amperage, the faster your wire speed needs to be. If you burn through, turn down the heat. Then listen to the arc to set wire speed. It needs to sound like frying bacon. Play until happy.
> 
> Dalee



Don't get me wrong D, I have welded with it, I made up a tow bar for my mobility scooter, but not up to the quality I can obtain with gas or stick. I did 2 years of night classes at college to get those under my belt.
I think the main cause of the problem was the fact I was using the supplied gasless wire, and it spattered everywhere.
I do very little welding nowadays, so it would not be a viable proposition for me to get it fitted out with a large gas bottle when I can just get hold of a few rods and weld away with certainty.

Thanks anyway for the tips

John


----------



## joco-nz

grapegro said:


> Hello James,
> The photos of my DRO should be attached. Cost was around A$460 and delivery about 3 days. All manuals and fitting instructions included. Could not ask for better service, equipment or operation.



Nice looking setup. I'm still keen on the BF20LV which is likely to be procured in the next 2 weeks. Given one of the local suppliers has it on sale until the 17th Sept.

While I recognise the need to learn how to use the dials I like the the idea of the DRO setup and how it will help me deal with backlash. Something I need to plan aroudnd when usin dials.  So ... where did you source the DRO kit from?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

Some good progress on the desk framing this weekend, especially after getting my MIG welding operational. Some gratuitous pics  :thumbup:

The two side frames.  One will house an ATX computer case (mid tower size) and the other provides the support for the other side of the desk.  I need to add a bracing bracket at the top so it has side support.



Just a collection of MIG welds from the frames.  Getting better but still a lot of learning/practice to go.









Aftert this weekend I am REALLY keen to get the lathe and mill.  Just so much fun making sparks and working metal.  Even got my teenage son out to watch some welding and explain what was happening.  He was very interested and can't wait to have a go.  I can see us building our first wobblers in tandem once the machines are purchased.  

Cheers,
James.


----------



## DJP

Just curious.... did you win a lottery and retire? You obviously get bored easily and need more new things to stimulate interest. 

This is not a bad thing as I see too many people wasting their 'bored' time which is when creativity happens.

The best part of this hobby is the confidence to make parts and more parts in support of any new idea. That's the best and something that you need to pass along to your children and grandchildren. I recently started our 12 year old grandson with stick welding and his older sister can run the lathe and mill. These are skills that not a lot of kids in their generation will ever have. My mission to to make them self-sufficient and self-confident.


----------



## bazmak

Welding looks.Take that from a welder


----------



## DJP

A suggestion for your consideration as it appears that you are welding in your garage/shop. Be sure that the big doors are open and there is a cross breeze to remove fumes. Better still, weld outdoors or install a blower to extract the welding fumes quickly. The professional welders that I know developed lung problems later in life so I worry about fumes even for occasional welding. 

Welding galvanized steel creates a yellow smoke that I am sure is bad. Painted steel also creates toxic fumes which could be epoxy based. 

You are working with clean steel and this is best but many of my projects involve a visit to the scrap yard where any available material of the right size gets carried home.

It's a small thing but by simply moving outdoors you will be much better off.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> Just curious.... did you win a lottery and retire? You obviously get bored easily and need more new things to stimulate interest.
> 
> This is not a bad thing as I see too many people wasting their 'bored' time which is when creativity happens.
> 
> The best part of this hobby is the confidence to make parts and more parts in support of any new idea. That's the best and something that you need to pass along to your children and grandchildren. I recently started our 12 year old grandson with stick welding and his older sister can run the lathe and mill. These are skills that not a lot of kids in their generation will ever have. My mission to to make them self-sufficient and self-confident.



Lottery/Retire - I WISH.   Nah, I set aside the bonus I got from work last year as my "metalworking shop setup fund".  It's enough to get me a (smallish) lathe, mill and a base set of tools.  This whole thing is about sanity management as much as it is about the fun of creating.  I fundamentally like to make/create things and I now spend all my time at work dealing with people and not creating/making. The other driver (similar to you) is to get my son involved in something "real" beyond all the bits and bytes they now seem to live in.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> A suggestion for your consideration as it appears that you are welding in your garage/shop. Be sure that the big doors are open and there is a cross breeze to remove fumes. Better still, weld outdoors or install a blower to extract the welding fumes quickly. The professional welders that I know developed lung problems later in life so I worry about fumes even for occasional welding.
> 
> Welding galvanized steel creates a yellow smoke that I am sure is bad. Painted steel also creates toxic fumes which could be epoxy based.
> 
> You are working with clean steel and this is best but many of my projects involve a visit to the scrap yard where any available material of the right size gets carried home.
> 
> It's a small thing but by simply moving outdoors you will be much better off.



When stick welding - hell yes. I had doors open after each weld, gas-mask on.   Fortunately my garage is not fully lined (no roof panels) so there is always good air circulation.  But when stick welding definitely need something more.  The MIG didn't seem to be so bad.  Sod all smoke.  But my standard pattern has been to weld a bit with doors down to protect passers by, then lift the doors to circulate air while I clean up and setup for the next set of welding.

Re galvanized and zinc coated - that stuff is evil.  Everything I had read and listened to leads me to stay way from that stuff at all costs.  IF I need to do anything with that material  (e.g. weld some big fat nuts and bolts as part of a height adjustment system) it will be stick welding, outside, with gas mask on, and a portable fan (one of those column/stand jobs) setup to blow the fumes away from me. :hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> Welding looks.Take that from a welder



Gosh I hope that's a missing "OK" not something like "rubbish".  scratch.gif


----------



## bazmak

Missing word is great.Keyboard seems to play up
For the amount of welding you do a large shed will have adequate ventilation
With regards to galv.Yes it is bad the white floating particles are toxic
Spent many years visiting Doctors with flu like symptoms and bad sore throats
till I found out it was toxic welding fumes from galv.Only weld galv when necessary and outdoors.Same as silver soldering with cadmium fumes
For a day job its BAD but for the home handyman its not as dangerous as it is often made out to be.Again your welding is improving in heaps and bounds
cant get it from a book,its practice


----------



## grapegro

Hello James,
                 Got onto Delos 3 axis dro kit through Alibaba, I found Delos very helpful, quote the machine make and model with the DLS-W scales and they dothe rest. Good luck.
Norm


----------



## Dalee

Blogwitch said:


> Don't get me wrong D, I have welded with it, I made up a tow bar for my mobility scooter, but not up to the quality I can obtain with gas or stick. I did 2 years of night classes at college to get those under my belt.
> I think the main cause of the problem was the fact I was using the supplied gasless wire, and it spattered everywhere.
> I do very little welding nowadays, so it would not be a viable proposition for me to get it fitted out with a large gas bottle when I can just get hold of a few rods and weld away with certainty.
> 
> Thanks anyway for the tips
> 
> John



Hi,

Ahh, I understand. Flux-core can be a pain in backside. It is completely possible that the supplied spool isn't much good. Pretty common with the smaller home machines.

Dale


----------



## goldstar31

Good Morning, James! Apologies for delays but I've been spending a few days with my daughter and her family. Incidentallly, she is like her late mother a top welder and wire bender and silver solderer! Me, I'm merely one of these guys who was a bean counter in the days of yore but acquired a City and Guilds Certificate in Motor Vehicle Restoration and added a Certified Welder ' thingy. I also counted beans until I tired  of that nasty complaint called 'Work' some 31 years ago:hDe: As my son describes it, I've been retired longer than I have ever worked. So my comments must be taken as advice rather than criticism. He, incidentally, seems to have picked up a knowledge of engineering along with his Cambridge degree in French and Geography. He blames  'moi' as his first car at 17 years was rebuilt from scrap and a loan of half the cost of £75! Been there, burnt holes in my tee shirt and all that.

So your Mig efforts? I suspect- and it is difficult to assess from photographs, you are not getting 'Penetration' . I've got a little similar job with square wall tubing- once the streets get aired. I'm lifting my little lathe above its lathe tray so that what is left of my arthritic hands will not be 'barked' from the handles. For what it is worth, I'm setting up the joints with a gap of the same thickness of metal - to get the required penetration of the weld.

Apologies- but I hope that this is constructive criticism.

As an addendum, might I suggest two or three things to add to your increasing experience?

The first thing is to register with www.mig-welding.co.uk. It's quite informative and I was able to resurrect a  scrap 105A Mig.
The cost of changing over from gas to gasless was quite prohibitive.
The second was to try to get the videos from the Welding Institute to cover all three ordinary welding techniques. The Mig one, covered the restoration of an ancient MGB-- rather than my VW Polo with moss growing in the windows.
The third is 'spot' or plug welding which requires nothing more than a different nozzle. Saves a lot of fiddling about with a mask. 

Time for coffee- again. I hope this helps

Norman


----------



## bazmak

If  you are doing a fillet weld as your photos appears to show
then you do not need penetration as such.If you are doing a butt weld then Goldstars advice is sound,although I would suggest a gap of 2/3rd the matle thickness,and if possible a light backgrind and a fillet on the other side
I would class myself as a good welder,but would  most likely fail a weld test etc
But for us home welders its not necessary,it wont be holding bridges up
Reminds me of a time listening in to an old welder puffing on his pipe and 
watching his lad turn over a large pipe with a crane
Ay lad what are you doing
Turning this pipe over to weld the other side
Nay lad says he they don't turn ships over


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks gents.   From what I can tell with the joints being made I am doing a number of fillet welds and flare/bevel welds. Where there is in theory a butt weld I have not bothered welding since I have 3 of 4 sides welded and this is only holding up a desk top.  So I should have masses of strength in place with what I have.

From what I can tell by looking on the insides of the open end tubes it looks like there is reasonable penetration going on.  Of course when I start getting into building a welding table, or for that matter the stands for lathe and mill I will need to pay closer attention to penetration due to the weight to be supported.

But at the moment I'm having a blast making sparks and using the nicely tuned bandsaw.  Currently starting to/trying to come up with a welding cart design that makes the most efficient use of the steel I have left over from this build.   4m of 30x3mm SHS and 6m of 20x3mm angle with a few meters of 25x3mm flat.  I'm trying to work out a design that will have (ideally) 3 shelves (planning a ahead for ~180AMP AC/DC TIG and possible ~40AMP Plasma Cutter) and will be able to hold a couple of D size (2 cubic meter) bottles. If anyone has some suggestions from their internet wanderings it would be useful.
I'm wondering if the general approach would be to have the SHS for the high weight parts (base frame holding wheels and bottles) and the supports for the shelves.  Then use the angle for the mid and upper shelves with some aluminium tread plate screwed/bolted on.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

Laughingly, Barry!  Nissan used to give us Nissan Primeras which had failed the inspection process. Then the instructors got into the panels  with air saws and we had to stick the bits back on. The next bit was 'leading' and then painting.

Of course, the Primeras had to be handed back- for tax purposes.

Oh yes! Ships?  My mill stand has quite a bit of metal  out of Swan Hunters shipbuilding- courtesy of the late son of one the founders.
A reward for helping with his MGC cylinder head.


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> If anyone has some suggestions from their internet wanderings it would be useful.
> I'm wondering if the general approach would be to have the SHS for the high weight parts (base frame holding wheels and bottles) and the supports for the shelves. Then use the angle for the mid and upper shelves with some aluminium tread plate screwed/bolted on.
> 
> Cheers,
> James.


 
Obviously, I have little time but I recall that the web site mentioned seemed to be littered with welding trolleys as 'party pieces'

Cheers

N


----------



## joco-nz

Using this one as inspiration from indicated site, which I seemed to have already ferreted away in my reading list. Thanks for reminding me of its existence:


----------



## Wizard69

joco-nz said:


> Using this one as inspiration from indicated site, which I seemed to have already ferreted away in my reading list. Thanks for reminding me of its existence:




A couple of suggestions that might be worth considering:

1.  Welders require a few expendable so and frankly a couple of right Angie grinders.   Ideally you want the parts for the welder collocated with the welder.    Thus I highly recommend building drawers or using prebuilt toolbox mid sections in the design.   Possibly consider a low profile roll around tool box.   At least for me this prevents having to run around for tips, grinding wheels, spanner wrenches and the like.  

2. If not drawers shelves to hold fishing tackle boxes or similar storage containers are a good idea.  All the little bits need to be corralled and somethings (like feed wheels) you don't want to misplace.  Shelves with tackle type boxes provide a way avoid loss of "stuff".  

3. Add hangers for cables.   Eventually you will find yourself wanting extension cords for the leads or supplies.    Same thing for hoses.   In fact for gas tanks it might pay to have a manifold mounted to support a number of hoses.   A manifold becomes useful if you need to shield a back side or purge a pipe in prep for welding.  Additional shielding gas can be important for things like stainless.    You may not need it immediately but thinking about a manifold for your cart in the future can make an upgrade easier.  

4.  Space for one of those tiny bench grinders people use for TIG electrodes is nice to have too.   If I understand this thread right you have a MIG / flux ore welder so this does apply right now but if you do plan on an additional welder it is well worth considering.  

5.  Speaking of grinders, they require AC power.  As such it is worthwhile to add support for AC outlet power for hand tools, again a place to hang long cords upon.   In the USA this would mean a 110VAC outlets, which can be done simply with a cord that has multiple outlets.    Or you can get more complex with built in outlets if you are familiar with local codes.   By the way this is great for lighting too.   The minute you want to use the welder outside, say on a car or other big project the more desirable cord "management" becomes.  


On another note you expressed a disinterest in penetration, I'd strongly suggest that this should be a primary skill to perfect.   That is learning to set the welder up for the proper penetration for the material to be welded.    Like many here I don't have a professional welding background so I can't just flick the knobs to the right settings due to muscle memory so I usually engage in a lot of tuning to get good results.  Once you get beyond the initial fun of making sparks your primary goal with every welding project should be to get proper penetration.   You really don't want your welds to fail for any reason.   If you have the resources and time I'd spend the next few weeks practicing setting up the machine to weld a variety of materials.  The goal being to get good solid welds with proper penetration.   On the flip side you don't want to put too much heat into a weld as that just creates a huge heat affected zone.  

The key to welding is practice!


----------



## Wizard69

joco-nz said:


> Using this one as inspiration from indicated site, which I seemed to have already ferreted away in my reading list. Thanks for reminding me of its existence:




Oh I forgot one thing, those cantilevered shelves on those skinny uprights are a problem in my mind.  I'd most certainly consider larger basic frame components just to prevent bending and twisting as the platform gets used.    Something like 60mm X 30mm, 2 mm thick tubing, for the base and uprights, would produce a much stiffer frame. You could also use 2 inch square tubing.   In either case use gussets in high stress areas.   The idea here is to keep the frame light yet strong.    However there are advantages to having lots of mass in the base of the frame, you don't want the cart tipping over at every crack in the floor.


----------



## goldstar31

Of course Wizard69 is absolutely correct. My top tutor( Alan Robinson), who wrote the 'standard' book 'Repair of Vehicle Bodies' for us, insisted that we must get at least 80% penetration before moving on. !

Digressing, there is a heap of 'cowboys' and worse with electrodes from coat hangers and other crap. Again, there were the suicide merchants who welded high strength low alloy steels with gas welding. A grave mistake:fan:

I repeat 'Practice, practice' until you can put the tail back on the donkey using the right flux.:hDe:


----------



## DJP

Another 2 cents....The cart needs to be strong enough and with big enough wheels so that it can be transported to another location. If you can roll it up a ramp onto a truck and safely tie it down you win. Any 14-50 (stove) circuit available will do for a remote welding job. I have even used both sides of a split 15 amp circuit to get 240 VAC and by keeping the current low and using thinner rods welding remotely can be done.

Sooner or later a buddy will ask for your help to weld something that can't be moved to your shop.

The top shelf in the sample picture can be angled back for easier setting of welder switches but for sure this will be a top heavy rig. For my big stick welder the case itself becomes part of the cart. It stays low with wheels and legs attached. A long handle with hooks for extension cable and welding cables plus a welding pouch for rods completes my set up. I can easily tip it back on the wheels to move it. Simple is good.

Whatever you build it will be the last one so plan it carefully. At least that has been my experience with setting up a shop. Once I build a cart or table it stays that way for decades. Function is better than form for me.


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers gents. Appreciate the feedback and ideas.

I was perhaps giving the incorrect impression re penetration.  I believe I have good penetration on the work to date. However given its expected load I have not gone OTT re cutting up and etching a sample weld.  However, there are projects I am about to get into that will hold significant weight and I will do sample welds on that material and cut/etch them to ensure what I believe is good penetration *is* in fact good penetration. With the settings and technique in use.

On the welding cart front, since I am going to need to get some metal to do the job I think I will end up following the build of Jody Collier from http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com.  His cart looks very solid and is big enough to hold a lot of stuff including some redesign for a draw or two (which I think is a really smart idea).  I'll probably fabricate something unless I can find a metal draw system that will work.
I think I will continue to use 30x3mm SHS for this build.  Its very solid and while the cart will get a little on the heavy side it will be built like a brick out house, stable and is not going to have any sag issues as it gets loaded up with gear (angle grinders, toolbox etc.).


Jody's design:


----------



## goldstar31

James
             Apologies, but I had no intention of suggesting that you create a Quality Control lab and etch your embryo welds.
Suffice to have a test piece of a join in flat plates and nothing more than turning your work on its back - and seeing that your efforts have penetrated the thickness of the metal which in your case is as 3 milly or an eighth in my book.

Regards

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

Norman - All good mate.  

I can be an anal whatsit and will do a weld etch thingy (already found out how to do it using easy to find products) at some point. Just so I "know" what the heck is going on.  :thumbup:

And before I launch into building welding tables and lathe/mill stands I sure as heck will be checking that the output from my weld settings and technique are rock sold before letting thousands of $$ and hundreds of kg of weight be positioned on top of them.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## DJP

If inspecting welds is important to you as a hobby, go for it but in my experience we are not welding pipe lines or bridge work. As long as you do not have 'cold' welds that look like lumps of deposited metal the weld is strong enough. Check the strength of the rod material that you are using. Thousands of lb/sq inch is a comfort factor that a tool stand will not collapse due to a less than perfect weld.

Your welds look strong enough to me but to be sure find a university with an engineering lab and have your first stand crushed. That would be the best test.

I like your idea to continue using square tubing. It is very strong and the finished product when painted looks good too.

I see that you are having fun so carry on.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP - thanks for feedback on the welds.  It's good to have someone who has the experience letting me know I'm heading on the right track.

The etching thing is probably just my focus on the doing things as well as I can. Cheers.


----------



## Wizard69

The nice wide stance on the wheels is a good point on that cart.  Another thing to consider is whoops for hammers and other common hand tools.


----------



## bazmak

I would class myself as a good home welder,and have never done an
etchy sketchy thing yet.Havent even cut thru a weld to check penetration
By the time you have done a few welds you tell e good un from a bad un
A good weld is far stronger than the base section and for what you will be doing
is more than adequate.As others have said if you want to weldtest for your 
own amusement then go ahead,but chemicals for dyetesting are expensive and messy.From the photos you showed the fillet are good enough now and will
only get better.Hows it going with the lathe and the mill ?


----------



## joco-nz

On the weld etching front the game plan was to follow the ideas from here: http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/macro-etch.html

So while there are chemicals to use nothing like the nasty nitric acid solution that the "proper" way would have you do.


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> Hows it going with the lathe and the mill ?


Order should be going in Monday/Tuesday this week. I just need to sort out the delivery details with Machinery House.  I need to make sure they can get the crates into my garage off their truck and that they are not going to expect ME to have a forklift or equivalent.

In theory it shouldn't be a problem as my garage segmented door is 1.5 car lengths from the street curb. But I'm not going to start a ~$5000 order on theory.  :hDe:

Cheers,
James.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Order should be going in Monday/Tuesday this week. I just need to sort out the delivery details with Machinery House.  I need to make sure they can get the crates into my garage off their truck and that they are not going to expect ME to have a forklift or equivalent.
> 
> In theory it shouldn't be a problem as my garage segmented door is 1.5 car lengths from the street curb. But I'm not going to start a ~$5000 order on theory.  :hDe:
> 
> Cheers,
> James.



I hired an engine crane to get my machines into final position. Machinery house said sling it around the chuck and through the webbing in the lathe bed. They said Lift it off the ground and then put it down again to allow the slings to self adjust and lift again. Worked a treat. They sell the slings so maybe see if they can throw 2 of them into the deal. Or just drop over the ditch and borrow mine 

Don't  forget to grab a 4 litre bottle of kerosene and paint brush  to clean it up.


----------



## imagineering

James, I don't know which Lathe you are getting as yet. I have the AL-336D that Bruce has told you about. In the Chinglish Manual, they tell you the correct point at which to wrap a single Sling. That point is around the Bed, (not around the Chuck)!!!!, the lathe can then be balanced by moving the Tailstock in or out. I used an Engine Lifter to lift the Lathe above Bench height and then assembled the Stand to the Lathe before trundling the whole assembly into position. Having said that, I don't know if you are buying the Mach House Stand to go with your Lathe. If you are getting a Lathe with DRO, use a chunk of 100X50 next to the X-Axis Scale to avoid crushing it.

Murray.
.


----------



## joco-nz

imagineering said:


> James, I don't know which Lathe you are getting as yet. I have the AL-336D that Bruce has told you about. In the Chinglish Manual, they tell you the correct point at which to wrap a single Sling. That point is around the Bed, (not around the Chuck)!!!!, the lathe can then be balanced by moving the Tailstock in or out. I used an Engine Lifter to lift the Lathe above Bench height and then assembled the Stand to the Lathe before trundling the whole assembly into position. Having said that, I don't know if you are buying the Mach House Stand to go with your Lathe. If you are getting a Lathe with DRO, use a chunk of 100X50 next to the X-Axis Scale to avoid crushing it.
> 
> Murray.
> .



Game plan is the AL-320G.  While the 336D would be ideal it's just way more $$ for a first lathe than I can justify.  I think the 320G is a good balance of capability and price.

As to the moving, yes will hire an engine crane to do the business. The plan is to build my own stand, something a bit more stable than the stock one and also with drawers and space at the back for holding some steel stock on shelves.  This will work as I will have access to the rear of it. I'm taking inspiration from Rod's stand build as well others from the net. It's just an excuse for more welding! 
Cheers J.


----------



## joco-nz

It's done.  Order placed.
AL-320G is in stock.
BF20LV is on back order due 15 October.


woohoo1


----------



## rodw

imagineering said:


> James, I don't know which Lathe you are getting as yet. I have the AL-336D that Bruce has told you about. In the Chinglish Manual, they tell you the correct point at which to wrap a single Sling. That point is around the Bed, (not around the Chuck)!!!!, the lathe can then be balanced by moving the Tailstock in or out. I used an Engine Lifter to lift the Lathe above Bench height and then assembled the Stand to the Lathe before trundling the whole assembly into position. Having said that, I don't know if you are buying the Mach House Stand to go with your Lathe. If you are getting a Lathe with DRO, use a chunk of 100X50 next to the X-Axis Scale to avoid crushing it.
> 
> Murray.
> .



The mounting points in the 320g manual don't work at all. The method I described is what the supplier uses to lift all their lathes... and it worked for me soo much better..


----------



## joco-nz

Warning - gratuitous weld post!

I've not been too flash at welding end caps on SHS.  But I think I might have finally cracked the technique.  At least its come out looking half decent.  :thumbup:

 A little bit of work with the flap disc and this will look really clean.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> The mounting points in the 320g manual don't work at all. The method I described is what the supplier uses to lift all their lathes... and it worked for me soo much better..



Did you use the strap around the chuck as a way of getting balance?  I would have thought putting any real load from the lathes weight on the spindle would be "BAD" (tm).


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Did you use the strap around the chuck as a way of getting balance?  I would have thought putting any real load from the lathes weight on the spindle would be "BAD" (tm).



Yes, I am struggling to remember now and did not take photos but sling around the spindle behind the chuck and the other end threaded through the webbing on the bed at the tailstock end somehow. 






 It will come up crooked and when you put it down, the slings rotate and it finds its balance.

This is the factory lifting position and it was downright scary.






(don't worry the rope is 20,000 lb dyneema)
The guy also gave me a lesson on where to lift my mill.


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers.  Reminds me I need to source a lifting strap from somewhere before embarking on moving this thing.  Fortunately I will have a little time as I need to build the stand first.


----------



## bazmak

Nice welds


----------



## bruedney

I have a long 4 X 4 snatch strap you can borrow

So jealous can't wait to come around and help when you are ready

I wonder what else I can sell to get closer to ordering my 336

Cheers

Bruce


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> I have a long 4 X 4 snatch strap you can borrow
> 
> So jealous can't wait to come around and help when you are ready
> 
> I wonder what else I can sell to get closer to ordering my 336
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Bruce



Would be great to be able to borrow the strap when the time comes.  Re help - hell yeah. Will be looking for some guidance on what to do and just as importantly not do.

I do need need to source some cutting tooling and been wondering if HSS blanks ground to shape will do the job or if I should also get some indexable tool holders for "hogging" out material quickly.

Also should I pick stuff up from machinery house or do a CTC or other supplier order?


----------



## bazmak

A cheap set of 5 indexable for triangular inserts is a good start
Being a cheapo a did a thread where I made a set of 3 LH,RH,and centre
I bought a box of inserts and its a good start.Also some HSS sections
and the diamond tool holder with HSS or carbide works well
everthing else builds up over time


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> I do need need to source some cutting tooling and been wondering if HSS blanks ground to shape will do the job or if I should also get some indexable tool holders for "hogging" out material quickly.


 
If you recall, I basically answered and offered assistance.

So, for the umpteenth time, might I reiterate my experiences.

The first thing is that hss tooling can be crap and expensive if only to replace rubbish bought through ignorance and penny pinching.

As far as carbides, you probably have bought or will buy a lathe which is too fast in its lowest speed to use hss and consequently you will be left with no alternative than to pile up a collection assorted carbide inserts and holders. To get sufficient decent carbide shapes , isn't cheap.

However, most people have to eventually fall back on hss. Almost all drills are hss and like everything else, wears or breaks. Your choice is either to buy new- and there is some crap about or re-sharpen.

I didn't make the situation- I am merely being honest.

I have a drawer literally breaking from the weight of mostly hss lathe tools.
Oddly, most came from industry where carbides are used but specialist shapes were required. There is a case for hss tooling- especially for one offs in miniature work.

So, like it or not, you are stuck with having to join the dated old dinosaurs who use hss- extensively. You can cheat a bit and use things like old files, broken ball race cages, worn allen keys and cycle spokes. I used broken greenhouse glass to make wartime models!

So one of the first tasks is to make decent tool rests-using new found welding skills and cutting out with your 6 x4 saw. However, tools ground will rarely produce the finish that you want and you have endless choices of which way you 'hone'.  Hone, you must.

Always remember  that you cannot better the cutting edge on a tool- on lathe or mill.

You aim to reflect your dirty finger nails in the cutting faces of your tools.:hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

Been looking into the lathe lifting some more after pondering the discussion about where to lift from.

Having looked at the manual for the specific model in question I found this image.
Interestingly they do show an attachment to the spindle. However I do think its probably reasonable to assume that is more about making sure that left side does not drop than it is about carrying weight.


----------



## imagineering

One big wide Strop around the Bed will do. Then use the Carriage to balance the load. Worked with the 336D.

Tooling, start here; http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L0099

Give Bruce a ring when it's coming and we can both come and give you a hand with the installation if you want.

Murray.


----------



## joco-nz

Reading the manual I found this re the speeds in rpm.  From what I can see if I set up in pulley position 'I' then there is easy access to 60, 120, 200, 350, 600 and 1050rpm.  Hopefully that range allows something slow enough to effectively use HSS (depending on the material being cut and the feed rate).  I seem to have read something somewhere that suggested it was. But perhaps my memory is playing up.
Manual referenced: http://images.machineryhouse.co.nz/products/L141/PDF/L141 - Instruction Manual.pdf


At the moment I have zero stock of old or worn out HSS tools to draw on.  Hence my thinking of getting HSS blanks and grinding/honing them into the correct shapes for some cutting tools.

Equally I thought the carbide approach might be useful given it could be/should be used with higher speeds and from what I had read thought it was better at doing more aggressive cuts.  But perhaps that is my misinterpretation.

At the end of the day I am quite happy to plug away with HSS and grind/hone my own tools. I see that as part of the fun of this whole process. :thumbup:


----------



## rodw

bruedney said:


> ady
> 
> I wonder what else I can sell to get closer to ordering my 336
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Bruce



And now I'm jealous as I still don't have room for one!


----------



## rodw

I decided I have too much to learn to bother with also learning to grind HSS tooling.

I would NOT recommend these tools
http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L0099
They are [email protected] and you will end up replacing them eventually. You have to buy a set of 10 mixed inserts, they chip easilly and you end up with a collection of never used extras.

Just bite the bullet and buy ISO tooling which is an international standard
http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L450

I have these but never use them anymore since I settled on CCMT insert tooling which seems to do a muuuuuch nicer job. One tool lets me both turn and face. There are 2 sizes CCMT06 =6mm side and CCMT09= 9mm side. I made a mistake and ended up with CCMT06 which is fine but CCMT09 will hog into soft stuff better as it has a longer cutting surface. These ar Rhomboid and only have 2 cutting points.

I got them from CCT Tools in Hong Kong and now have the required  drawer full of inserts. I find they now last forever but broke a few getting going....

Also, because I machine a lot of plastic and aluminium, I run on the high speed and use 1600 rpm a lot. With carbide inserts, I part off 50mm aluminium at 1600 rpm and coolant no problem at all. I've still got 90 RPM if I need it on this belt.


----------



## goldstar31

If you can get down to 60RPM, I would b e happy with that.
Again, if you have hss tools which have inevitably blunted, I'd invest in a diamond hone to 'touch up'
Perhaps a tip in doing this is to use a waterproof felt marker and remove the rounded/worn cutting edge.

I'm blessed with a pair of surgeon's binoculars - from my dentist daughter, a watchmaker's loup and a microscope.

Of course, good tool ma\king lathes came with a microscope:hDe:
Somewhere on the 'net, there is Geometer's Microscope on the Lathe. Geometer was probably none other than 'Ned' Westbury

Worth a read- twice

Cheers

N


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks Norman.  I found what that series of articles along with a treasure trove of other engineer articles at: http://neme-s.org
I'm not sure where the link is on the site but I stumbled on to a heap of stuff here:  http://neme-s.org/Model_Engineer_Files/

The diamond hone is a good point, while I have a reasonable quality oil stone I dont have a diamond hone.  Are the brands all much of a muches in this area or should I be searching for a sepcific set of brand names?

On the magnification front I have been wondering if some form of head mounted magnification might not be a good idea to get. What level of magnificaiton would be good to get? Any views?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

Glad to help.
My 'Keeler's' are 2.5 X but maybe could be larger magnification. I'm on plastic as my late wife bought the cataract ops as a Christmas box and a Birthday present. Quite a gal- best silver solderer and wire bender-- and had the cap and gowns to prove it! Played a mean saxophone-- but I digress.
Probably you should find your preferred optical requirements. I'm on bifocals too!

Being of a lazy disposition, my diamond wheels range from about 180g to 400g but I've a 600g flat as well. When I get fussy, I head down the old traditional Arkansas stone or diamond pastes finishes. You'd be better to err on the coarser grits as a start. 

Have a look at Conrad Hoffman's site. It's amazingly detailed yet simple to emulate. Read him up. He effectively simplifies the practical way of doing things. It starts you off with the fascination of seeing a cobweb of cast iron or a dusting of the finest steel wool There is more than his Messy Basement site- but read it first

Does this help you along?


----------



## joco-nz

Slow progress but progress.
Welding cart starting to look like one.





Putting the wheels on and finding that the easiest way to affix will be to weld them. I just need to try and grind off as much of the zinc coating as I can. Nasty stuff.

The shelves will be either 3mm tread aluminum OR 2mm sheet steel.  The aluminum would look great but I can get the steel delivered for about half the price.  So ... it might well win. 

Then it's painting time!  Shall I do black or maybe something more aligned with my red BOC welder 

Started modeling the lathe table in CAD, my hand drawing skills having completely failed me. Will post images up once soonish for those interested. Dimensions won't be final as until I get the actual lathe on site and can do some measurements it's all a little up in the air.  General plan is to follow a torsion bar design approach with the chip tray slide under the torsion bar to allow for easy cleaning. Given I'm unlikely to source a bar big enough I'm going to stick a couple of RHS lengths together. This should make for a pretty solid platform that won't, in its self, twist which means the lathe shouldn't be subject to twisting.  At least that's the theory of this type of design as I understand it. BUT, it's going to be sodding heavy!


----------



## joco-nz

For those interested in what a torsion beam lathe stand is about:
http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/cq9325rev4.html


----------



## Blogwitch

These are Rhomboid and only have 2 cutting points.

Unfortunately, or fortunately this is incorrect. You should use the sharper two angles for most of your cutting and finishing work, then when both are dull, you can use the unused wider angled tips for hogging large lumps of materials by just purchasing the two correct left and right hand holders.
I know a chap in South Africa that, until I told him about this with these tips, had been throwing them away after the two shallower angles had become dull. He had been wasting half his money for many years.

This shows the different types of mounting for these tips, where all four cutting tips are used, and is the type I have been using for many years.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/info_777104_.html

John


----------



## rodw

Blogwitch said:


> These are Rhomboid and only have 2 cutting points.
> 
> Unfortunately, or fortunately this is incorrect. You should use the sharper two angles for most of your cutting and finishing work, then when both are dull, you can use the unused wider angled tips for hogging large lumps of materials by just purchasing the two correct left and right hand holders.
> I know a chap in South Africa that, until I told him about this with these tips, had been throwing them away after the two shallower angles had become dull. He had been wasting half his money for many years.
> 
> This shows the different types of mounting for these tips, where all four cutting tips are used, and is the type I have been using for many years.
> 
> http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/info_777104_.html
> 
> John



I am a big fan of the CCMT tips as shown on your link. I've only ever used the narrower tips but the finish they give for both turning and facing with the one tool is fantastic particularly with some coolant running. I have not used the triangular ones I started with since I bought these and there is such a range of tools that they fit. Even my boring bars for my mill use these. They are also very easy to make your own tooling for.  You just need to mill a straight edge to locate the insert and drill and tap one hole to hold the insert.


----------



## Blogwitch

Rod,

Even the wider angled tips can be used for facing etc, and can give very good results but can't be used for turning up to a shoulder, but I use those wider ones mainly for removing things like heavy scale off cast iron etc, where the sharper point would usually be snapped off within minutes the wider angle tips seem to last forever.

Like most of these tips, even other shapes, they can usually be given a new lease of life by rubbing the top face over a diamond lap, they can then be used on materials that require no top rake such as brass and cast iron.

I have about 50 tips in all, all in different states of use, some as old as 10 years or even older, and not one is disposed of until nothing else can be got out of it, they really are a very good investment.
I don't know how the newer ground tips (ccgt) stand up to this sort of playing about with, only time will tell, when mine get worn a little.

John


----------



## joco-nz

The Lathe has arrived!   So hard to keep focused on work.   I'll start a thread specifically on my Lathe apprenticeship so that conversation can be focused on just Lathe work, questions and issues.

Gah - now NEED to make that stand.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

Ok, I've been looking at the new tool, taking some pics and thinking, crap what have I gotten my self in for.  

But also really excited to get into this new experience. :thumbup:

Crap thats a big box.



Lid off ... Oooo NICE!






Hmm 1.2m long. not too bad.



Nice big solid 200mm 4 jaw and 200mm plate.






All the extra little bits. The paper wrapped parts are the alternative jaws for the 3-jaw chuck.



Once I have the bench pretty close to done I'll give things a good clean. Until then I guess better to leave the protective grease on.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

Looks nice.The lathe will spend a lifetime without the grease.Taking it off a couple of weeks early will not do any harm.Spend some time getting the majority off and taking off a few parts to get the feel of things.Its exciting


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> Looks nice.The lathe will spend a lifetime without the grease.Taking it off a couple of weeks early will not do any harm.Spend some time getting the majority off and taking off a few parts to get the feel of things.Its exciting



WD40 okay for degreasing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that was what many use for cleaning up mini lathes.

Once it's degreased I assume I need to put a light coat of some oil?  Something other than the WD40 residue I presume.  Recommendations?

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

If its stored in a dry shed then WD40 or turps then wipe with an oily rag
It depends on what its coated with.The thick red grease takes some cleaning off
Take the time to remove and look under any covers.Headstock springs to mind
Sometimes these hidden places have taces of casting sand etc
How long before liftoff?


----------



## joco-nz

Its stored in the garage which is dry but in the winter will get pretty cold.  I might need to come up with some way to prevent condensation.

Anyway, when it comes to "oily rag" is just some light machine or 3in1 oil ok?

Lift off is dependent on making the stand.  I'm designing it at the moment and trying to make sure I don't back myself into a corner on the configuration of the table. By this I mean draws and the like. I have been trying to find the draws I have seen RodW use and some other aussie builds but to no avail. Everything seems to be a crappy 300m deep where as something closer to 500 is what I really want.  Especially as each draw unit starts at around 200NZD.  So ... I'm probably going to have to break out the woodworking skills and make some wooden draws.  Line them with brown paper and they should be good.

Then I will need to get the steel ordered and collect it. Best case I get delivery of material mid to late next week (I have to take time off work to collect since none of the suppliers are open in the weekend). Probably 2-3 weeks away before I will complete the table and mount the lathe.

J.


----------



## Blogwitch

Iso 68 for all slideways and Iso 32 (general hydraulic fluid) for use in your gearboxes and general lube around the machine.

These are lubes recommended by all Chinese machine suppliers (most independents won't be able to tell you as it seems beyond their brain power to look it up correctly).

Hope this helps

John


----------



## joco-nz

So according to http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/iso-grade-oil-d_1207.html it looks like

ISO 68 == SAE 20W

ISO 32 == SAE 10W

That should make it a bit easier to find the right stuff.  I can get good sense asking for SAE designations.  Asking for ISO grades could get entertaining. 

A quick read of the AL320G manual shows:
[1] all oiling is with SAE 20 (ISO 46)
[2] grease is Grease 3#Ca. Which seems to look like http://www.rs200motoroil.com/product/grease-ca-3-2/


----------



## grapegro

Hello J ,
              I have found w5-40 fully synthetic oil to be a good lubricant for all parts of the lathe, I have a 9-20 chinese lathe. The best part is that it does stop rusting with a liberal coat. Best of wishes on your venture.
Norm


----------



## XD351

Grizzly website usually has better manuals for Chinese machines just look for the machine that looks like yours as their model designations are different.
I asked Hare and Forbes how to lift my Al 320 g and they said one sling around the spindle and one through the centre web in the bed at the tailstock end , use the carriage to balance .
They are top heavy because of the geared head and if  you just sling under the bed they can roll that is what the sling going to the spindle in your diagram is for - to stop it rolling over .
I use plain old chain bar oil on everything except the gearbox , i use hydraulic oil for this .


----------



## bazmak

I cut up an old heavy curtain to make a simple cover for the lathe and mill
Keeps your new baby warm and dry in winter and when not in use


----------



## rodw

Takes me back seeing one all brand new again! Machinery house sell hydraulic oil for the lathe and i use it for everything. I cleaned mine up with 4 litres of kerosene.

Regarding the drawer units, my left hand drawers are 2 of these
https://www.tradetools.com/product-...dustrial-3-drawer-full-depth-stacker-tool-box

The right hand drawers are a cheap toolbox from the same place with the lid removed. This one I think
https://www.tradetools.com/product-...abinets/renegade-industrial-3-drawer-tool-box

So look for a place that sells mechanics toolchests as the main drawers are top boxes that sit on top of rolling tool chests.


----------



## Blogwitch

You might find it better by searching for a 68 grade SLIDEWAY oil.

These are maybe a little different to other grades of 68 oils as they will have additives that keep the oil in place.

A slideway oil is designed to give a permanent thickness layer to prevent metal to metal contact on all your slideways, and as far as I can gather it is about 0.002" thick. Without that layer, your gibs might seem to be a little loose, and further adjustment to take up that slack can be causing undue wear. Lube up first, then adjust your gibs until tightish, then continue to lube every day if needs be.
I did this on my mill well over six years ago when it was first commissioned, and the gibs haven't been adjusted since.

In all honesty, I grossly over lubricate my machines, and it drips all over the place rather than the 'polish it until it shines brigade', who may be doing more harm than good.

Having been a mechanical type of engineer all my working life, I have a ruling that a few pounds spent on the correct lubrication over a couple of years is better than having large amounts of wear on your machine if it isn't lubricated properly that could cost hundreds of pounds in replacements. Paint layers are only cosmetic and if needs be they can be cleaned up or repainted, layers of slideway metals can't.

John


----------



## SmithDoor

I note your tape is in inches too.
I do not know NZ also used inches







Dave



joco-nz said:


> View attachment 84210
> 
> 
> Hmm 1.2m long. not too bad.
> View attachment 84209
> 
> 
> Nice big solid 200mm 4 jaw and 200mm plate.
> View attachment 84211
> 
> 
> View attachment 84213
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Cheers,
> J.


----------



## joco-nz

Dave - NZ is officially metric and in all honesty the bulk of everything is metric.  However so many of the plans out there for model engineering are all imperial I have made sure some of my measuring gear can cope with metric and imperial.  Hence the inches on the tape measure. I have the same situation on a couple of metal rules as well.

I'm still tossing up re what to do on micrometer front.  Digital which gives me dual system but at a hefty price or two traditional mics covering both systems.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

I was brought up on imperial then graduated to metric in drawing office and works.Fortunately I can work in both.I prefer to work close tolerances
in thous of an inch which I can see in minds eye but late and mill are both metric.As for for mikes and verniers digital is the only way to go


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

I use everything under the sun for measuring, both digital and manual, for both internal and external.

Now to upset the Mitutoyo et al stalwarts who will have you spending hundreds of bucks, which you don't want to do when first starting out. 

Don't be afraid of buying a cheap Chinese manual set of external Mics. I did, a set up to 4", for use when starting and half half way through a job, then I was going to switch over to the expensive stuff for finishing off.

If you are confident enough to strip them down, clean them out, lubricate and adjust to a nice personal feel, and calibrate them with the supplied gauges (all very easy to do, and the tools to do it are usually supplied), then you should find that they will do everything you ask of them. I did, and they are still spot on after a few years service, so much so, I now use them from start to finish. All for the cost of one digital, and mine have tungsten faces as well. I still use my digital ones, but mainly when I am grinding, as they can work to much finer tolerances.

Something similar to these

http://www.amadeal.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh...chet-Stop-Type-AMA_MT_600_C304TD.html#SID=213

Be very careful if you go for digital ones, make sure they are electronic, not the click over ratchet types with numbers changing in a small window, very expensive when I started to use them in the early 80's, very old hat now.

John


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers gents and good to know John re the ability to get good service out of "cheap" chinese sets.

I'm now pushing ahead with the lathe stand design and as I feared the more I think about it the more complication I'm probably adding in.  Oh well, having fun.

Anyway the challenge I saw when looking at the lathe, how the chip tray is positioned under it and where the center of weight would end up being on the stand was that there would be material weigh forward on the stand.  Not good when ideally I don't really want to bolt it down until I am confident in where it will be placed.

So I came up with this kind of concept. By using angled front legs I get a wider support footprint making the weight of the lathe sit more centrally in that support footprint. These images dont have any cross bracing on the legs yet, its more initial concept stage.  The intent is for the green bars to be 100x6mm SHS, two runs welded together to create a single 200x100mm beam for the lathe to sit on.  It has a foot pad size of 180mm wide. I'll be modeling in the drip trap in a later render.

The red legs are planned to be made from 75x50x3mm RHS. I expect to do some bracing between the legs using either the same box section size or perhaps 30x3mm SHS.

Ideas, thoughts welcome.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

I agree with both Barry and John but whilst I have electronic stuff in both formats, I have a huge set of mikes and verniers made in Imperial and obviously mechanical. One adjustable one will 'bridge' a foot. Of course, I have a set of 'J' blocks and a packet of cigarette papers! Strangely, most were very second hand- and cheap. Clocks- galore!

I've got a Columbus gauge and a vernier which can be boiled

Most people get by with 0-1" and a cheap dual vernier. Eventually buy to suit YOUR specific needs.

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

On the measuring front I do have budget digtal calipers.  150mm and 300mm (used when building 3D Printer).  Hopefully that will help for the intial starting point.  As you say Norman, I will need to figure out what makes sense for what I am making.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

What you must remember is the fact that you are not standing at a machine making the same damned part from the day you started work to the day when you go home from their for the last time, you paint the kitchen and then sit down- and die. 
Unfortunately, that is the lot for many. You will be making 'one offs' and really have little to do with some quality control inspector with his mind set on ensuring that nothing falls outside of 'three standard deviations from the norm' 

Hint, I gave my 'guessing stick' away millions of light years away and was far too  young 31 years ago to join the 'walking dead' and patiently awaited 12 times 31 'pension' cheques going into the bank ------so far-So good!

This is a hobby- a nice one provided that you avoid the sad ranks  who think standing all day at a machine qualifies them -for something which I never discovered.

Go make things- your way, learn, sometimes succeed, sometimes fail- but keep the dreaded senile dementure,  hopefully at bay.

There are precious few who have lasted long enough to form such views. 

Your next project should not be how to make a stand to put a lathe on or what sort of mike to buy, it should be how to make  your own 'Luck' and I hope that you succeed.

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

For me since this is soo far removed to what I do as a day job even the experience, process of designing and the learning achieved from building the lathe stand is an adventure.

For many it probably seems to very mundane.  But for me its quite interesting and challenging to get the best result I can while learning as much as I can.

J.


----------



## joco-nz

The lathe table design continues.   Bit of a render as an update.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> The lathe table design continues.   Bit of a render as an update.



I'd be a bit concerned about the forward angled legs getting in the road not to mention the additional build complexity of mitred corners that are not at 90 degrees.  You'll need to jig it up to get the angles right. The last thing you want is a tripping hazzard around the lathe. If you are building to the drip tray dimensions, it will be very stable with upright legs. Aso consider adding levelling legs. M12 bolts on each will hold the weight easily when you look at commercial offerings.

Nothing wrong with butt joins and welding on endcaps which when ground back won't even be noticed. It will be much simpler for a starting project.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> I'd be a bit concerned about the forward angled legs getting in the road not to mention the additional build complexity of mitred corners that are not at 90 degrees.  You'll need to jig it up to get the angles right. The last thing you want is a tripping hazzard around the lathe. If you are building to the drip tray dimensions, it will be very stable with upright legs. Aso consider adding levelling legs. M12 bolts on each will hold the weight easily when you look at commercial offerings.
> 
> Nothing wrong with butt joins and welding on endcaps which when ground back won't even be noticed. It will be much simpler for a starting project.



I'm ok with the mitre joints to get a final 90 degree angle, did those all for my welding cart. The "complex" front ones have been worrying me.  I have a variation which is more traditional that I'll post up once I finalize it a little more. 

yes plan is to go to drip tray dimensions.  But I live in an earth quake zone and we do have a few shakes every year.  So I am being a bit paranoid around stability.  I might just have to accept I need to dynabolt it to the floor and be damned about moving it.


----------



## joco-nz

the straight leg version.  Not got all the bracing that could be there but it gets the idea across.


----------



## rodw

I like it better, Just remember that the surface of the drip tray is above the lip. I set the mounting crossmembers a bit higher than the frame











The headstock end only bolts to one of the crossmembers.


----------



## bazmak

I would move the front bottom 1200 lg member inboard to give more room for your feet when leaning over the machine
You have improved in leaps and bounds since you started the threads
I think you will need some longtitudenal bracing in the form of gussets,or cross bracing
Maybe best would be say a rear panel to form a diaphragm


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> I would move the front bottom 1200 lg member inboard to give more room for your feet when leaning over the machine
> You have improved in leaps and bounds since you started the threads
> I think you will need some longtitudenal bracing in the form of gussets,or cross bracing
> Maybe best would be say a rear panel to form a diaphragm



I've been looking at cost of steel and plan to redesign a bit tonight based on using less of the large stuff and having the bulk of the framing using either 35x3mm or 40x3mm SHS.  This should take some weight out, still be plenty strong enough and drop the cost quite a bit.


----------



## bazmak

40 40 x 2.5w rhs for the legs and 40x25 rhs fpr the horizontals
would be adequate.With 1.5mm thk shts pop riveted to ends and back
would stiffen everything up


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> 40 40 x 2.5w rhs for the legs and 40x25 rhs fpr the horizontals
> would be adequate.With 1.5mm thk shts pop riveted to ends and back
> would stiffen everything up



Thanks.  Given how this will be located I will have access to the back and intend to use the back side of the stand for metal storage. So want to keep that open.

Good to have a view on the adequate sizes.  I'm still getting a feel for how much steel is enough.


----------



## joco-nz

Another go a this. I still need to see if I can source the 100x6mm SHS via scrap.  if not I might need to revert to Rod's design, else crank open the wallet.  Which would be absolutely fine. :thumbup:

I'm just kinda keen to do this torsion beam design.

Anyway, doing this with some cheaper 40x40x3mm steel for the legs and bracing.  There is probably some more bracing I will add, gussets bracing the back frame for example.  But it's pretty close I think.  Just need to sort out what hight to set it at for good ergonomics.   I seem to recall something about the forearm placed on the cross slide handle should be parallel to the ground with the upper arm perpendicular to the ground and a 90 degree bend at the elbow.


----------



## rodw

I used 35 x 35 for the legs because it married up with the 35 x 65 RHS. 3mm thick RHS is heaps. I think I used 2.6mm wall thickness.
My bottom rails are off the ground a bit which when the adjustable feet were added, gave me plenty of room to get the toe of my boot under so I could stand hard against the lathe. 

Maybe I'm paranoid about stability given this was the driving force for me to make a lathe stand






I'd keep the bottom rail attached to the front legs rather than recessed in like you have.

The reality is that at 280kg, the lathe is only adding 70kg load per leg which is nothing in the scheme of things. 

If you have your heart set on mounting the lathe to laterals, why not use two 65 x 35mm RHS rails on each side of the lathe (eg. below the mounting holes) that are joined together with a few spacers of the same material like a ladder. 

I'm not convinced the so called "torsion bar" design adds any value v's a well designed and constructed conventional stand. For starters, it is using the RHS beam with incorrect orientation. (eg. Long edge should always be vertical to attain maximum bean stiffness). 

If you sketch out where the forces are, they will be downwards at the lathe mounting points with equal opposing forces upwards at each leg regardless of how its mounted. So then you end up with bending moments between the stand legs and the lathe mounting points.


----------



## joco-nz

Rod,

From my understanding of the designs intent the benefit is that the single supporting beam acts as a floating member. By this I mean that it doesn't twist or deform based on any movement in the surrounding frame e.g. uneven floor. This of course presumes there is sufficient flex in the frame.  So you mount the lathe to this floating beam and in theory (got to love theory) if the beam is flat you just bolt lathe to beam and no need to explicitly adjust the lathe level through levelling bolts.

In my case I have designed for 2 square beams welded together. to get the width for the lathe's "feet".  There are therefore 4 vertical walls of 100mm to provide support and spread the weight over.

HOWEVER as I play with this design more and consider the fabrication costs unless I can find either a single big beam or something close to the 100x100mm beams at a scrap merchant, buying that steel is going to be expensive compared to just doing the whole thing in a design like yours using similar sizes.
EasySteel doesn't seem to do the 35mm but Steel & Tube seems to. The thicknesses are either 2.5mm or 3mm. I think for the sake of 0.5mm I'll just stick with the 3mm. Nice and solid and I think I have weld settings that seem to be tuned nicely for it.

Been looking at the "screw jack" adjustment on the legs some more and as you pointed out conclude that with those plus a little bit of raising the lower support beams up (say 35 to 70mm) there should be plenty of clearance for the front of feet.  It also means I can get a full depth shelf at the bottom which I am quite keen on.  That shelf will end up holding a lot of the smaller sized/length metal stock in various boxes as well as items of <1.2m length. I might need to add some cross bracing to support said shelf, don't want it sagging in the middle.

In all I'm having fun thinking through this.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## bazmak

Don't forget you need lateral bracing either gusset or diaphram


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> Don't forget you need lateral bracing either gusset or diaphram



Assuming I go with the gusset approach how "big" should they be so as to be effective?

Given the gusset is essentially a triangle should the two sides making the 90 angle be 100mm? 150mm? 200mm?   More?

And how thick a material to be effective?  3mm? 5mm?  More?

Very new to this so still coming to grips with how much steel is enough steel.  

Cheers,
James.


----------



## rodw

> Been looking at the "screw jack" adjustment on the legs some more and as you pointed out conclude that with those plus a little bit of raising the lower support beams up (say 35 to 70mm) there should be plenty of clearance for the front of feet.



I used approx 75mm long set screws  (threaded full length) I think I probably used a drilled and tapped end cap made out of some 32mm x 8mm flat bar had on hand at the bottom of the leg. These matched nicely to the 35mm shs. Either that or I welded a nut to the inside before welding on the end cap.

And remember if you  add coolant, you'll need to level the lathe anyway.

With lower braces around the legs, I doubt you'd  need to bother about gussets. I did use 100mm triangular gussets on my welding table as there are no lower braces. For the welding table, I copied some industrial mobile benches I had made in my last job in the printing industry which were in turrn copied from a design a friend used in his university printing centre. In fact, I got them made by the same fabricator....


----------



## rodw

One more thought. You could get your beam laser cut and folded in a 2 piece design. Fold up a c section the right width and then have a matching flat piece that gets stitch  welded on the bottom side. That way you could get the dimensions perfect, have them cut the holes for mounting bolts in perfect position.  It might be worth getting quoted up. Use 6mm or 8mm steel maybe. Be aware the beam could be distorted from welding....


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> I used approx 75mm long set screws  (threaded full length) I think I probably used a drilled and tapped end cap made out of some 32mm x 8mm flat bar had on hand at the bottom of the leg. These matched nicely to the 35mm shs. Either that or I welded a nut to the inside before welding on the end cap.
> 
> And remember if you  add coolant, you'll need to level the lathe anyway.
> 
> With lower braces around the legs, I doubt you'd  need to bother about gussets. I did use 100mm triangular gussets on my welding table as there are no lower braces. For the welding table, I copied some industrial mobile benches I had made in my last job in the printing industry which were in turrn copied from a design a friend used in his university printing centre. In fact, I got them made by the same fabricator....



On the coolant front, to get the drop to the drain point did you pull that drip tray down at all?  Or raise the other end up by using some flat bar as a thick "shim"?

Looking at the drip tray I'm guessing something was done as it looks pretty flat otherwie.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## rodw

I just adjusted the stand to put a little bit of slope back into a corner where I put the drain. I will say that coolant goes everywhere so its not much fun using it in winter.


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## bazmak

For gussets for application then even small triangles ad to the stiffness of the joints.For the loads involved deflection of the RHS is not really an issue for you
Personally if its suitable for you then a full 1.mm thk back is the way I would go
and full ends if they don't interfere,these can be riveted or bolted on


----------



## joco-nz

Some more work on the model per Rod's design with gussets to add some strength in key directions.

Now to try and figure out how I deal with draws.  I just can't seem to find anything deeper than about 320mm.  :-/


----------



## rodw

That will be so much easier to build. The front and rear rails hold the weight so I made them go the full length (so the leg sits under them). I  cut them 6mm shorter than they needed to be and capped them with a piece of 3mm thick flat bar to make it look neat when completed.

This may show how I did it..


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> That will be so much easier to build. The front and rear rails hold the weight so I made them go the full length (so the leg sits under them). I  cut them 6mm shorter than they needed to be and capped them with a piece of 3mm thick flat bar to make it look neat when completed.



Snap!  Made exactly that change while sitting on the train this morning. :thumbup:


----------



## Cogsy

rodw said:


> I used approx 75mm long set screws (threaded full length) I think I probably used a drilled and tapped end cap made out of some 32mm x 8mm flat bar had on hand at the bottom of the leg. These matched nicely to the 35mm shs. Either that or I welded a nut to the inside before welding on the end cap.


 
On the CNC plasma table I made I used upside down tow-balls with the nut welded to a plate on the bottom of each leg. Probably a bit heavier than needed here but an easy option to keep in mind for future projects.


----------



## rodw

Cogsy said:


> On the CNC plasma table I made I used upside down tow-balls with the nut welded to a plate on the bottom of each leg. Probably a bit heavier than needed here but an easy option to keep in mind for future projects.



Thats massive! Rated for 3500 kg per leg! I was looking at legs for a plasma table. A full sheet of 32 mm plate steel only weighs 750 kg and commercial levelling feet that handle 1500 kg were only M12 threads. Still a great idea Cogsy that I've filed away. Did you put the towball on a floor plate with a cup in it?


----------



## joco-nz

Cogsy said:


> On the CNC plasma table I made I used upside down tow-balls with the nut welded to a plate on the bottom of each leg. Probably a bit heavier than needed here but an easy option to keep in mind for future projects.



Nice idea. Never thought of that.  Only about 18NZD a pop as well.


----------



## Cogsy

No need for a floor plate, the table was very heavy and never moved even under the highest acceleration we could run. The biggest advantage was the cost of them - had a mate that collected cars for scrap metal so they were essentially free, then a run through the sandblast cabinet and they were like new. Very much overkill, as you say, but they make great levelling feet.

Edit to add: with only point contact from the 6 legs of the table, it did make it possible for 2 guys to shove the table around when necessary (on concrete floor obviously), which I don't think would have been possible with standard flat feet. Wasn't a design consideration though.


----------



## joco-nz

I'll run with bolts I think somewhere between M12 and M16.  They should be plenty strong enough. I figure once the stand has everything on it, lathe, scrap metal, some form of drawers, tools, back panel they should only need to be dealing with circa 100-130kg per leg.


----------



## bazmak

The weight of the table,total load proportional to feet area in contact
Not saying you would have a problem but,
I remember sheetmetal racks being made to hold steel plts
Great thought was put into the the strength of sections for the rack
When it was fully loaded the feet punched thru the concrete floor
No thought had been given to spreader plates
In your case the contact of the ball foot is in theory a point load
Just saying


----------



## joco-nz

Yeah, bit like stiletto shoes. Look at the damage they do to wooden floors.  

Had been starting to ponder some kind of wider metal foot under the bolts.  Say something like a 40x40mm square.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Yeah, bit like stiletto shoes. Look at the damage they do to wooden floors.
> 
> Had been starting to ponder some kind of wider metal foot under the bolts.  Say something like a 40x40mm square.



I did do that initially for the factory stand but I did not use them as it was too unstable. You really won't have a problem as you are only talking about 100 kg per foot.

If you got socket head cap screws (eg. Allen key type), you could part off a piece of round stock in your lathe and bore a hole the same diameter as the bolt head. A couple of spot welds and it would be nice and neat.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> I did do that initially for the factory stand but I did not use them as it was too unstable. You really won't have a problem as you are only talking about 100 kg per foot.
> 
> If you got socket head cap screws (eg. Allen key type), you could part off a piece of round stock in your lathe and bore a hole the same diameter as the bolt head. A couple of spot welds and it would be nice and neat.



Thats a nicer solution to what i had been thinking.  I,ll need a nut on the top side to allow adjustment.

Or i spring for some "proper" vibration isolation feet.  Think Machinery House do that sort of thing.


----------



## joco-nz

Having done some more on the lathe table design this is where its at.  Did it in pdf form so it scales better for display.

View attachment drawing.pdf


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Having done some more on the lathe table design this is where its at.  Did it in pdf form so it scales better for display.



Starting to look familiar. I may have found some tool box drawers for you

http://www.trademe.co.nz/building-r...ets-workshop-toolboxes/auction-1173182465.htm

It would need a slight rethink of your dimensions. Its 1216mm wide and your exterior dimensions are 1219mm. THe exterior width of my stand is 1275 mm and I have 1210 between the legs. Ask them, they may have one half the width.

On mine, I built the stand to the  toolbox dimensions and the stand overhangs the drip tray at the ends. See here.


----------



## Niels Abildgaard

joco-nz said:


> Having done some more on the lathe table design this is where its at.  Did it in pdf form so it scales better for display.
> 
> View attachment 84452



My Boxford was put on a solid piece of rock,concrete will be alrigth also,and it gave a really dramatic improvement in sound and surface quality.


http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=18&page=36

Mass of  Boxford is between 2 and 300 kg and granite block today is 800* 200 and 150 mm.On picture from 2010 it was wider but I had to prune it after moving to new home..
You will not realise the full potential of that nice lathe with a soft foundation


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Starting to look familiar. I may have found some tool box drawers for you
> 
> http://www.trademe.co.nz/building-r...ets-workshop-toolboxes/auction-1173182465.htm
> 
> It would need a slight rethink of your dimensions. Its 1216mm wide and your exterior dimensions are 1219mm. THe exterior width of my stand is 1275 mm and I have 1210 between the legs. Ask them, they may have one half the width.
> 
> On mine, I built the stand to the  toolbox dimensions and the stand overhangs the drip tray at the ends. See here.



Cheers.

Price is a bit of an ouch.   $1400, essentially $700 NZD a draw unit.  The joy of the Teng brand, good but expensive.


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

Go to here, and using the LEFT HAND download button, download the little program. Ignore everything else on that page.

http://modelengineersutilities.software.informer.com/

When it is downloaded, just run the self extracting archive and it will put a program on your computer that you should find very useful. I use it all the time. It even has all the easy to understand settings for cutting spur gears and feeds and speeds for cutting most normal metals.

John


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Price is a bit of an ouch.   $1400, essentially $700 NZD a draw unit.  The joy of the Teng brand, good but expensive.



I also saw a yellow box on that site which might be a bit more affordable but it had a lift up lid. That is OK as I used one like it on one side after removing the lid. Just it has some "hidden" storage that can never be used.


----------



## joco-nz

This turned up 2 weeks early.   Slight problem in available space and that I now need to fast track lathe stand build with even more limited space.


----------



## joco-nz

We might have a solution that looks to be a good size and won't break the bank.
http://www.savebarn.co.nz/index.php...&category_id=0&description=1&product_id=24110

Its orange which isn't that great but its the only thing I have found that has the right size and a price point that isn't $500+.  I'l not be able to use the top opening part but that is just too bad.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Its orange which isn't that great but its the only thing I have found that has the right size and a price point that isn't $500+.  I'l not be able to use the top opening part but that is just too bad.



Glad you found it!

Awesome that you have  a mill now. If you think the lathe takes a while to get your head around, wait till you start playing with your mill. I had a very good link to a extensive series of videos put together by a US university to show students how to use the machine tools in their robotics workshop but I can't find it. Maybe somebody can help me find it for you.

It is far and away the best resource I ever found online and what I used to compile my tooling wishlist that I scoured the world to find.


----------



## joco-nz

Rod - that sounds very interesting.  Was it on YouTube? Itunes? Or just floating about the net?


----------



## weez

I think that the videos that Rod is referring to are found here. http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos
I watched all of these when I first started machining and found them very informative.


----------



## joco-nz

Right I have my steel and am ready to make sparks.  I have refined the design a bit to allow for the drawer unit and a shelf.  But I'm not flush on metal so I have done things so I can add another shelf at the bottom of the stand at a later date.

If I've done something dumb please let me know.  Thanks.


----------



## bruedney

Have you finished it yet?


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Have you finished it yet?



The cuts begin early Saturday morning.  I then do a flying visit to Save Barn to check out the tool chest to make sure its not junk, and buy it if its ok.  Then back and more cutting and then SPARKS as we fuse metal!


----------



## joco-nz

weez said:


> I think that the videos that Rod is referring to are found here. http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos
> I watched all of these when I first started machining and found them very informative.



Very cool.  They used to be on iTunes from the looks of it but MIT seem to be doing screwy stuff.  Fortunately I have figured out how to ensure I don't lose access to them.


----------



## joco-nz

Couple of lathe tools turned up this morning  :thumbup:

Parting off tool designed to act like a tool in a rear post but operates on the front with lathe running in reverse.



RH tangential tool holder plus I have some crobalt tool steel for this as well as the HSS steel that comes with it.


----------



## grapegro

A good choice from my experience. Norm


----------



## bazmak

Parting off with the tool upside down in the front and lathe running in reverse
I think we have just discussed the benefit of a bolted on chuck versus the screw on nose
And all the forces are trying to lift the tool/tool post and not forcing down against the bed
Not a good idea


----------



## joco-nz

https://youtu.be/grtiFa56Bpw


----------



## joco-nz

Spent the bulk of the day waiting for steel to cut, getting it all setup square and then welding the stuff.

The upshot is a big rectangle.  Sheesh.  But the effort to get it square seems to have been worth it.




Just a little bit paranoid on the internal fillet welds.   Triple layered.  Yes its OTT, given the weight is on the legs.  But I want to make sure there was a solid chunk of metal with good penetration into the sides into those corners.



Test fitting the drip tray on top of the base rectangle.  It FITS.  Thank god I can measure after all. And looking around the edges everything looks to be pretty square.


----------



## rodw

weez said:


> I think that the videos that Rod is referring to are found here. http://techtv.mit.edu/collections/ehs-videos/videos
> I watched all of these when I first started machining and found them very informative.



Thats the one, I knew somebody would know where it was! I had had a lathe for a couple of years when I watched this and it just blew me away. I made a list of all of his cool tools and a few more of my own and then slowly ticked them off.  Some from Hong Kong, some from China, some from USA and some from the UK. I think I even bought a couple of bits in Australia. How he set up a milling job was really valuable.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Thats the one, I knew somebody would know where it was! I had had a lathe for a couple of years when I watched this and it just blew me away. I made a list of all of his cool tools and a few more of my own and then slowly ticked them off.  Some from Hong Kong, some from China, some from USA and some from the UK. I think I even bought a couple of bits in Australia. How he set up a milling job was really valuable.



Yeah - starting to watch these and even the initial video with laying out has been useful. Validated some stuff I suspected and learned some stuff.  Very pleased with these great resource.


----------



## joco-nz

Hi.

I need to make the  adjustable foot assemblies for the lathe table.  Nothing fancy here.  The challenge is I do not have the 8-10mm flat bar to put the threaded hole for the bolt in and I dont fancy buying 8m of the stuff just for 200mm of used stock.  However I do have a lot of 6mm stock.

What I am wondering is if, assuming a suitable means of adhesion is applied, I sandwich two 6mm layers together to create a 12mm block, will that be ok? Definately enough depth for good thread engagement. Now how to "glue" them together. Either weld all around the edge (will have to bevel the weld edges so the bead sinks in and doesn't sit on the surface) or braze them toegther perhaps after first "tinning" the mating surfaces.

What do the more experiencd heads think?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## bazmak

2 pieces with a couple of stitches around the edges.No need to prep 
leave weld as laid they are not doing much excepting holding the pieces together.Try not to get too technical.If you are using the head of the bolt to sit on concrete then you need a spreader plt say 50mm dia.When a thru bolt goes thru a tapped hole rule of thumb is that the thickness should be min of bolt dia Ie m12 bolt then min 12 thk plt


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> 2 pieces with a couple of stitches around the edges.No need to prep
> leave weld as laid they are not doing much excepting holding the pieces together.Try not to get too technical.If you are using the head of the bolt to sit on concrete then you need a spreader plt say 50mm dia.When a thru bolt goes thru a tapped hole rule of thumb is that the thickness should be min of bolt dia Ie m12 bolt then min 12 thk plt



Cheers. I think the 12mm will be ok as part of the load is also taken by the nut used to "lock" the height position in place.  For the spreader plate the 6mm steel I have will be ok?   Just tack it to the bolt head on two opposite sides so a spammer will still work ok?


----------



## bazmak

You've got it .I usually put 3 tacks on a hex hd for symatry.Tack each alternate flat.Try and make do with what you have.If the plates are threaded why do you need a nut under,just screw the spreader plt up or down


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> YIf the plates are threaded why do you need a nut under,just screw the spreader plt up or down



Just didnt want the screws to move due to vibration.


----------



## bazmak

They wont.Trust me.However your reasoning is good but your lack of experience
makes/gives you a lack of confidence.Nothing wrong with what your doing
but its called over engineering.The 3 runs on the fillet weld is also not necessary.A good single 6mm fillet is stronger than the tube,which would give first under destruction test.I would only put multiple runs when the matl is thicker than the fillet size.Must say you have improved in leaps and bounds
since your first post


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> They wont.Trust me.However your reasoning is good but your lack of experience
> makes/gives you a lack of confidence.Nothing wrong with what your doing
> but its called over engineering.The 3 runs on the fillet weld is also not necessary.A good single 6mm fillet is stronger than the tube,which would give first under destruction test.I would only put multiple runs when the matl is thicker than the fillet size.Must say you have improved in leaps and bounds
> since your first post



Over engineering - lol - my wife would say that's my middle name.

Re the welds - yeah I new I was over egging it.  Just paranoia won over reason in that instance.   Thanks re the improvement comment.  I'm feeling more confident  but still so much practice needed to be consistent.


----------



## joco-nz

After much of the day mucked up by my sons sports commitments where I ended up being the taxi I got some stuff done.

Legs cut and welded on.   Much mucking about trying to get them as square as I could.  I think I pretty much succeeded.  At least close enough that with adjusting feet it should be fine.

I primed the weld areas with a rust guard primer so that I don't get any rust starting while I get this thing fully built. Of course I need to put some gussets on so will need to polish off some of this and then repaint. Oh well.







I just had to try the drip tray on again.  :thumbup:


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

I used 16mm head down bolts for the levelling feet on my lathe, which is a little larger than yours. 

I have found that the forged in writing on the bolt heads actually digs in and locks everything to the concrete floor, and like yourself, I used lock nuts as well, a belt and braces approach. 
But I actually used through bolts rather than threaded into the plate, with a nut on the top to lock things up. This allowed for up and down adjustment by turning the bottom nut without turning the bolt head, as long as the top nut was loose, which was tightened up at the very end when the machine was levelled with no twist.
Not one millimetre of creep in over 6 years of use, and I am sure that I have lots more vibrations on my machine than you will most probably ever experience, as I do a fair amount of cleaning up very rough raw materials.

John


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks John.   My approach (well actually Rod's) caters for the fact I don't have access to the top of the bolt as it is in the hollow of the leg. See below.

Do you have levelling bolts under the actual lathe itself or just under the legs of the stand?

Cheers,
J.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Thanks John.   My approach (well actually Rod's) caters for the fact I don't have access to the top of the bolt as it is in the hollow of the leg. See below.
> 
> Do you have levelling bolts under the actual lathe itself or just under the legs of the stand?
> 
> Cheers,
> J.



Another way you can do this is to just drill a clearance hole and weld a nut onto the plate inside the leg. I think you will find it really hard to physically tap M16.  If you do tap the holes, make sure you drill the hole oversize (by at least 0.2mm, maybe more). Commercial bolts seem to always be 0.2 mm undersize...


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Another way you can do this is to just drill a clearance hole and weld a nut onto the plate inside the leg. I think you will find it really hard to physically tap M16.  If you do tap the holes, make sure you drill the hole oversize (by at least 0.2mm, maybe more). Commercial bolts seem to always be 0.2 mm undersize...



I'm actually thinking M12 mild steel bolts with a spreader plate welded to the the head.  Given the commercial anti vibration feet with a rating well in excess of what this stand will need use M8 and I have an M12 tap I can use.  M16 I would have to buy.

I had been thinking of using high tensile bolts but I understand that if you weld on to them then their strength gets impacted?

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

It is easier to drill clear holes amd weld on a nut.You don't need high tensile
the bolts are under compression.Dont overengineer
If you want to worry then think about lateral stability,and tie the bottom of the legs and add bracing


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

I actually have eight bolts as my feet and levelling devices, four on the corner of each box of the commercial stand, with 16mm holes drilled through into the boxes.
It was a bit of a task to get them all set, a couple of hours job for two people, one above watching the two levels and one below doing the spanner work.

But as I have said, nothing has moved at all in those years since it has been done.

But it will soon have to be redone as the lathe needs to be moved so that a 3ph motor can be fitted.


John


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> It is easier to drill clear holes amd weld on a nut.You don't need high tensile
> the bolts are under compression.Dont overengineer
> If you want to worry then think about lateral stability,and tie the bottom of the legs and add bracing



Cool - standard M12 bolts.

Stand isn't finished yet.   I have still got to put in the gussets and the bracing/shelf frame. Since I found and bought a massive draw unit that takes pretty much the bulk of the width with about 256mm gap at the end, just enough for a shelf for a holder for the 200mm 4 jaw chuck and face plate.

What I am still mucking about with is if I put the bracing frame at a height to hold up the draw unit and make this small shelf (per image below) or if I suspend the draw unit and the shelf similar to what Rod did in his Aussie Shed thread and have the bracing as a big shelf at the bottom.  I will ultimately have a shelf at the bottom as I want to use it for metal stock storage.  Which will add some nice stabilising weight right at the bottom of the stand.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

M12 nuts and studding are as cheap as chips and a bit like a badger's bum but a bit cut from the family's unused silver  fish knives and a plop of ant killer and spit makes remarkably good tackle for the job that is nigh enough on a dark ( k)night.


----------



## bazmak

If you have not finalised the feet yet then I would suggest that 6mm plts
with M16 nuts welded on top and drilled clear.Spreader plate to foot
and locknut as your original.If you don't tap the plates then 6mm will suffice
The bottom frame/shelf is what gives you lateral stability.Gussets or diaphragm side panels to complete


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> If you have not finalised the feet yet then I would suggest that 6mm plts
> with M16 nuts welded on top and drilled clear.Spreader plate to foot
> and locknut as your original.If you don't tap the plates then 6mm will suffice
> The bottom frame/shelf is what gives you lateral stability.Gussets or diaphragm side panels to complete



Out of interest other than it being a bigger chunk of steel is there a rational for the M16 over the M12?  I have drills up to 13mm (in 0.5mm increments) but will need to go buy something for the 16mm hole. So would prefer to stick with M12 unless there is a concern over its ability to cope.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

M12 will ok if not too long,you only need an 1" or so projecting
I only mentioned M16 because if you were welding a nut on
then you don't need a tap.You can open the hole in the sq plts
with a boring bar in the lathe.I also bought a set large drills with reduced shank
12mm to 25mm. Only cheap but they come in handy and you will need some
when you get into things.I personally would use M16 but M12 will do


----------



## rodw

As said, no need to over engineer. This page shows commercial M12 levelling feet rated from 1000 kg to 1500kg
http://www.modularcomponents.com.au/building-blocks/adjustable-feet/

This lathe weighs all of 280 kg so all up with stand, It will probably weigh in complete at about 400 kg. So 4 M12 feet capable of holding a combined 4-6 tonne should surely suffice! Stick with M12 and save your money.


----------



## joco-nz

Ok M12 it will be with a good sized spreader under it.

I quite like the tapping idea.  Ill give it a try on one 12mm sandwich and see how it goes.  I can always revert to the welded nut approach.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

Have you thought about how you are going to screw the feet down to get your lathe level and without twist (the most important bit)?

If you read my post above correctly, you just screw the nut up and down without turning the foot (bolt head). Commercial and expensive feet usually have a ball and socket to allow you to do the same sort of thing, the foot stays still on the ground while you screw the support shaft in or out of your threaded plate idea.

The way you are contemplating doing it, you will have to lift things up, turn the foot, then lower it down again, a very haphazard way of levelling up. Easy to do with something light, but with a heavy machine, you have to look at things differently. You have to have the foot firmly planted on the ground and raise and lower the machine with whatever means possible.

You might think I am a doddery old interfering fart, but ten years ago I was doing such things installing envelope machines, up to 10 separate sections adding up to over 60 feet long with four adjusting feet on each section. If one part of the machine was a thou or two out of level, then it wouldn't work, the half mile roll of paper would just slew to one side and smash up inside the workings. For those we used separate pads with a half round concave recess in the top and an adjusting leg with a ball on the bottom that sat in the recess. Feet stayed still, machine was raised and lowered.

Just another thing to confuse you, sorry about that.

John


----------



## joco-nz

Ummm .... ARRGGHHHH.    :wall:

I had been wondering about that.  Now my head hurts.  :hDe:

I'm just going to go cut the support struts, weld stuff, have fun make sparks and think about this tomorrow.


----------



## joco-nz

Ok - here's an idea John.   Face the head of the bolt just enough to be smooth.   Don't weld the bolt to the spreader but create a recess slightly larger than the bolt head and say 1-2mm deep into the centre of spreader. The smoothed bolt head rests in this.  Then it can turn relatively freely for the small number of of adjustments that will need to be made.

Ok brain really does hurt now.  Need beer.  :fan:


----------



## goldstar31

You are not thinking this out. To put Domes of silence onto a stand, you are presenting 4 very small points on which your gubbins stands.

Go an look at a shop which sells Grand Pianos- which are a bloody sight bigger and heavier and see what they do. Yep, I've just had the 1911 7/8ths Bluthner Grand moved.

Not always fiddling with QCTP's and almost as ancient Myfords

Value? Little more than coppers really


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> You are not thinking this out. To put Domes of silence onto a stand, you are presenting 4 very small points on which your gubbins stands.
> 
> Go an look at a shop which sells Grand Pianos- which are a bloody sight bigger and heavier and see what they do. Yep, I've just had the 1911 7/8ths Bluthner Grand moved.
> 
> Not always fiddling with QCTP's and almost as ancient Myfords
> 
> Value? Little more than coppers really



Looks like they just have sodding great big castors. But don't know any music shops in the local area that doing such large pianos and I'm not flying to Auckland to find somewhere that does it.


----------



## Blogwitch

J,

These are the sort of thing you are looking for, but they are not levelling pads, just what you wanted to do in the first place, and a bit far away if you want them quickly.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/MACHINE-MOUNTING-PADS--SET-OF-4--80mm-dia-89347576.html

If you do go for this pattern, DO NOT get the anti vibration ones, they are OK for a compressor, but not for holding anything that should be level.


John


----------



## joco-nz

The progress continues, slow but steady.  Got the lower brace on and .... ran out of gas on the MIG.

Only 1 day till Saturday and I can go swap the bottle for a full one.  I just hope like hell the BOC agent has a D size Argoshield Universal mix in stock! :hDe:

I had a reread of Rod's stand build and fortunately picked up on his discovery that the mount holes per the manual are 722mm between head and tail but he measured 726mm.  I checked and sure enough, 726mm it is.  So much for an accurate manual!   I also checked the spacing from front to back and at least that was the same 150mm per the manual.  Onward and upward! :thumbup:


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> I had a reread of Rod's stand build and fortunately picked up on his discovery that the mount holes per the manual are 722mm between head and tail but he measured 726mm.  I checked and sure enough, 726mm it is.  So much for an accurate manual!   I also checked the spacing from front to back and at least that was the same 150mm per the manual.  Onward and upward! :thumbup:



I nearly said to double check the dimensions for some reason. I even got the manual out to check your drawing but was too lazy to go down to the shed at night with a tape measure. Of course I'd forgotten about this error....

I will say I measured  everything so many times as it was a bit scary (for me) drilling holes in a part before welding it up!


----------



## joco-nz

Rod - yeah, I had noticed enough variations in the manual against the machine as built that I wasn't trusting things anymore.  So the remeasure was on the todo list. Then on rereading your thread I came across your discover which spurred me into action.

Got my gas. No D size bottles so I now have an F. Damn they are heavy. But 5.5 cubic meters of volume. Should last a while, even with the projects my wife is adding in now she realizes I can make stuff in steel. :thumbup:

Gates, sections of fences, mounting bracket etc etc.


----------



## joco-nz

Found some good wheels for the lathe table so it can be moved about.

These are rated 280KG each.  So over 1 tonne with four of them.


----------



## joco-nz

Got the feet sorted out.  Bit of a mission cutting the M12 thread into the 12mm steel.   I had to do an emergency dash to WR Twigg to get a taper tap as the cheapie intermediate I had just was not doing the business. Thanks Bruce for saving my bacon and letting me know that store was open Saturday morning!  I still had to cut the tap by hand as there was just too much torque for the tail stock drill chuck to handle.

So first off, yes I screwed up the bolt purchase, which I have now corrected (i.e. bolt is threaded the entire length which means the feet will not be sticking out so much) but I'm just using the photos I have. Fortunately the bolts in the picture should have a use in the construction of the wheel frame.

Anyway, the threading has come out really well and the bolts fit like a dream.



Now I'm looking at the fitting on the end of the legs and deciding on how best to weld them.  Just run a bead to stitch over the seam between the leg and the foot or do I grind an angle on the foot so I have a fillet to weld into.  Views? Alternatives?


----------



## bazmak

A stitch /fillet on all 4 sides will suffice
the welds are not taking any load


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> A stitch /fillet on all 4 sides will suffice
> the welds are not taking any load



So grind a small angle?  Or just not bother and just weld down the seam?  Sorry, not too sure exactly what you meant.  :hDe:


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Found some good wheels for the lathe table so it can be moved about
> 
> These are rated 280KG each. So over 1 tonne with four of them.
> 
> View attachment 84692


 
Mine was £50 which included the frame /stand for the little Myford ML10 and recently the same supplier was/is selling bases with the same wheels for £15.

OK, I have add the M12 malarkey-studding and nuts, obtained from my usual tin pot el cheapo source.

Hardly worth digging the Mig out

Now I have the 6 station turret  for the other Myford. Meantime, I have two charity audits ahead - one today. 

I suppose it is a way to keep one's fingers out of the old perineum 

TTFN

Norman


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> Mine was £50 which included the frame /stand for the little Myford ML10 and recently the same supplier was/is selling bases with the same wheels for £15.
> 
> OK, I have add the M12 malarkey-studding and nuts, obtained from my usual tin pot el cheapo source.
> 
> Hardly worth digging the Mig out
> 
> Now I have the 6 station turret  for the other Myford. Meantime, I have two charity audits ahead - one today.
> 
> I suppose it is a way to keep one's fingers out of the old perineum
> 
> TTFN
> 
> Norman



Cool - sounds like you having fun.  I'm enjoying playing with the MIG and looking for any excuse to use it.  I have my hammer ... everything is a nail.  ;-)


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> Cool - sounds like you having fun. I'm enjoying playing with the MIG and looking for any excuse to use it. I have my hammer ... everything is a nail. ;-)


 
My Mig cost all of £30- after I repaired it or rescued it from the scrap man.
you chose!

The hammer- my best one, was stolen by my son. His excuse is that his grandfather made it on the anvil- sometime in the war.

Which war is anyone's guess, I know that he set fire to a horse in one.

At least, I know where the rather different approach comes from:hDe:


----------



## bazmak

From the photos it looks as though the 12mm plts are larger than the tube
Hence I said run a fillet.If they are flush then grind a small V on plts
and tube for penetration.The welds are not taking any load just holding the plts in place


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> From the photos it looks as though the 12mm plts are larger than the tube
> Hence I said run a fillet.If they are flush then grind a small V on plts
> and tube for penetration.The welds are not taking any load just holding the plts in place



Ok.  Thanks.


----------



## joco-nz

These feet are not going anywhere.  :thumbup:
Nice solid welds all the way around.




Next part of project is making the spreaders for the feet.  So made the head of the bolts nice and flat, cut some 6mm flat stock into squares ready to be attached to the bolts.  But that will need to be another nights project.


----------



## joco-nz

Got the feet installed and levelled.  Feels really solid and flat. Next is the support members for the lathe itself.


----------



## bazmak

would be better with the plates round and the hx hd stitched to the plts


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> would be better with the plates round and the hx hd stitched to the plts



Bolt is plug welded to the plates which I acknowledge that is not the strongest but for the loads in play should be sufficient. And nothing stopping some stich welds later if need be.  I might still turn the feet down in the lathe.  But its really just cosmetic and l'm more interested in getting a functional stand available at this point.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

Good idea to plug weld from underside,leaves the hx hd clear for a spanner.As long as they
are tied together the weld is not important.As you say its only cosmetic,if the foot revolves
then they may be at odd angles.Might look odd as your doing a good job.Might find a piece of 2mm rubber under each plt
helps reduce any vibration.When I bought a similar lathe years ago I mounted on a sheetmetal stand
and had to install waffle pads and lead sheet to dampen the vibrations


----------



## joco-nz

A bit more progress today.  Managed to get some gussets on to the back of the frame. These triangles are 130mm on the sides and 6mm steel.  So they should give some good lateral support.



I then figured out how to turn the feet to have circular spreaders.   I have had to redo a number of the spot welds as they failed under angular force at various points.  The whole problem stems from [a] not having a large enough hole (redone ones have a 10mm hole) and not flushing the air out of the hole with argoshield before starting the weld.  The failed welds tended to be a bit porous at the bottom of the plug.



Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

I needed to just take a blade width off the end of some 30x30mm SHS today and wanted to have just enough for the blade to bit into and keep it still cutting into the steel and not sliding off the side.  But didn't want to take off anymore than needed.

So with some finessing I managed to get a pretty thin slice going here.


----------



## joco-nz

The lathe stand in all its primed glory.


----------



## Roboguy

Looking fantastic James!

You'll be making swarf in no time!

Cheers,
James Fitzsimons


----------



## bruedney

Roboguy said:


> Looking fantastic James!
> 
> You'll be making swarf in no time!
> 
> Cheers,
> James Fitzsimons



He's been doing that from the floor *club*

Bruce


----------



## joco-nz

It was said "let there be paint" and behold there was paint ...


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> He's been doing that from the floor *club*
> 
> Bruce



For the record it IS bolted to the pallet, I checked it pretty carefully to make sure it wasn't going anywhere and I have limited myself to very small items and nothing over 600rpm.

One discovery - using the power feed rocks.  A few passes under manual feeding gets a bit old rather fast when you have a lot of metal to get rid of.  Of course nothing beats the hands when you need to carefully approach a shoulder.

My Diamond tool holder is AWESOME.  I am looking forward to trying to grind a threading tool.  Just cose I want to try.  :thumbup:


----------



## bazmak

Glad to see you have been bitten by the bug.I think we are a dying breed
I remember when I left school,i really looked forward to going to work
Lets see some action,dont forget a piece of thin solid rubber under each foot helps. Regards barry


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> ...dont forget a piece of thin solid rubber under each foot helps.



Very good point - need to find some solid rubber  - 2-3mm thick yes?


----------



## joco-nz

Got all the feet turned now off to pararubber in the weekend to get some thin solid rubber to act as a vibration buffer.

Now I HAVE to make space. I foresee a big clean and a full trailer of crap to dump this weekend.


----------



## joco-nz

Well its done with and with a huge amount of help from Bruce :thumbup:  I have the AL320G installed on the stand.

I have 3mm thick solid rubber pads under the feet to isolate vibrations and everything has been levelled to a reasonable degree.  At some point I will run Rollie's Dad's method to see how good things are and adjust accordingly.
http://neme-s.org/Rollie's_Dad's_Method.pdf

I have done some test cuts on some scrap round stock.  The HSS in my Diamond holder is cutting like a hot knife through butter.  Lovely curled swarf coming off with a nice clean finish. 8)

Set my self a target of 12mm diameter with a starting size of 12.60mm. So set my cut by the dial to 0.6mm (so on the chinese lathes that setting the dial to a 0.3 mm as its all in radius not diameter -- I'm learning!) and managed to get to 12.01 as read off the digital callipers. I'll take that as a win!
woohoo1


----------



## rodw

Great to see its up and running at last!
I've played with  some ground rod. I think you will find the tailstock alignment is spot on, mine was. There is zero runout on the spindle taper but whenever you add a chuck of any kind you add runout.

Takes me back to my pre-DRO days. I found if i did not actually work it out on a piece of paper and convert it to clicks on the dials, I would invariably stuff up.. Now my DRO is permanently  set to diameter mode so it displays the diameter, same as the calipers do. 

Oops, better not encourage you to spend any more!


----------



## joco-nz

Ahh a DRO. One of my future dreams.  However as an interim and cheaper option I am thinkin of getting a couple of DTIs with a 30 to 50mm reach and 0.01mm readings.  Using them on some custom mounts should allow for good accuracy while not having to worry about backlash considerations. Heck I might even be able to forgo the DRO.  Of course once I get the Mill running I think DRO and/or CNC of it will be a must.  

Make sense?


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Ahh a DRO. One of my future dreams.  However as an interim and cheaper option I am thinkin of getting a couple of DTIs with a 30 to 50mm reach and 0.01mm readings.  Using them on some custom mounts should allow for good accuracy while not having to worry about backlash considerations. Heck I might even be able to forgo the DRO.  Of course once I get the Mill running I think DRO and/or CNC of it will be a must.
> 
> Make sense?



I think over time, you will learn to live with backlash and realise it is not a limitation. One of the first and most used addon I made was make a carriage stop. This lets you face off at consistent length and coul also help when turning to a face. I did buy a micrometer mechanism that I was going to add to the carriage stop but is still in the drawer.

Don't overcomplicate things for now, just get the basics right.


----------



## joco-nz

Rod - agree.  I'm focusing on the basics and just practicing basic turning operations on some scrap. A carriage stop is at the top of the todo list. But I need to to source some cold rolled 1018 to make such items from. Or get some cheaper basic hot rolled stock.

Cheers.


----------



## bruedney

joco-nz said:


> But I need to to source some cold rolled 1018 to make such items from. Or get some cheaper basic hot rolled stock.
> 
> Cheers.



Or you need to figure out what you and come and see if I have any :wall:

Bruce


----------



## imagineering

bruedney said:


> Or you need to figure out what you and come and see if I have any :wall:
> 
> Bruce




Give him a bit of that super hard Stainless Bruce ... :toilet:


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Or you need to figure out what you and come and see if I have any :wall:
> 
> Bruce



Note that "source" is non specific on where said sourcing would occur.  :hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

Well the shop setup continues.  I now have some hefty tool storage and space to start thinking about how I will set up the mill.  I feel another welding project coming on! :thumbup:

Mind you I must get the bosses car back into the garage as the brownie point balance is starting to get dangerously low. :hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

Another of the workshop projects to help get things all organised is a welding cart.  This build started a while ago and has taken a back seat while the Lathe stand was completed and commissioned.

Current status is:
1. frame built
2. mounting plates for the wheels are drilled and welding in place with a successful trial fit of wheels done
3. bottle shelf has angle steel supports welded in place and a success trial fit of the gas bottle performed to prove the shelf is the correct width
4. bracing triangles to help hold the gas bottle in place designed and cut but work has gotten in the way of progressing those this week

See the pics below.
Pic 1:  Over all view of the cart



Pic 2:  The bottle shelf



Pic 3:  The "crown" on the top shelf that will provide convenient places to loop earth and torch cables over


----------



## joco-nz

The welding cart continues.  I have everything pretty much fabricated that I need to its now painting time.  Pity the paint takes 16 hours to cure between coats.  A real pain.  However I have a first coat done and things are very YELLOW!


----------



## joco-nz

I have quite a few mitre joints to cut and I don't really want to have muck about with realigning the fence on the saw back to 90 degrees.  So a little time at the table saw with some careful cutting checking and I have a nice little mitre joint insert for the band saw.

This isn't a new idea, but here is my simple implementation.  2 layers of 18mm plywood glued together with some high density plastic (from a cheap chopping board) the correct width for the slot in the bandsaw top screwed onto the plywood.  This stops the wedge from sliding out.


----------



## joco-nz

I had a look at the method for holding the jig in place and decided it needed to be a bit more robust.   So a bit of steel round, some lathe work and an M8 bolt and things seem to be much more rigid.  :thumbup:


----------



## joco-nz

Okay after much spray painting here is the cart with wheels on and the top and middle shelves just laid on the frame.  I need to take some nicks out of the edges where the welding beads are so the shelves sit nice and flush the frame. I also need to source a bottom shelf. But no major rush for that.

On the whole not looking too shabby.


----------



## joco-nz

I saw this style of hight setting gauge recently when collecting some purchases.  The kind gentleman who had the gauge used it to set his tool height off the top of the cross-slide of his lovely Super 7.

So I thought I would try my hand at the same concept. I will do one from my saddle as well (106mm) but this one is 160mm for measurement from the ways.  It's not as clean a bit of turning as I would like, the steel being not that flash as it started life as a galvanised carriage bolt which I turned down for the purpose.  It is however pretty accurate being measure correct to the centre height to +/- 0.02mm.


----------



## Blogwitch

James,
Nice little setting tool, unfortunately after you get a bit more under your belt you will come across negative rake tools, and there are only two easy methods that will cope with them.
One is the scribed line type (which I used for many years) and the other is the prismatic one which I showed how to make a few weeks back.

John


----------



## goldstar31

Whilst I have rather a surfeit of grinding things, I am curious about the Acute tool system and the costs of materials- apart from having to buy nuts and bolts in bulk, it is trifling. I might get THREE for about £20 and bits and bobs out of the scrap box- or the Museum for White Elephants. 
However, James raises the question of getting a rough surface. The late and much lamented George Thomas described it as being 'nibbled by rats' and at another juncture-'Done with a masonry nail'. Well, one doesn't need a tangential tool which- would you credit it- cuts a thread. If you want to learn thread cutting, you have one suggestion. It dates back to dear old Maudsley and the time that my great or great great grandfather probably borrowed the foreman's felt hat to pack a piston and cylinder- full size. It may date back to Solomon or the  Durham Cathedral but whatever, it is NOT new.  If one is wanting a cut on steel which is so fine like the finest of steel wool, I'd suggest that one reads Conrad Hoffman's dissertation on Advanced Tool Grinder and makes a shear tool. Mason, the traction engine guru described it long before Hoffman but it is none the worse for that.  It doesn't need a height gauge or going off at a tangent.

Do I have one? Hell, no! _ Read the beginning!_


----------



## bazmak

I made something similar JZ,used a nom 25mm dia magnet with a tapped hole in it and screwed a piece of bar as you have to correct length.Same as yours
the big advantage is it sticks to the way and you don't have the hold the gauge while you set the tool


----------



## joco-nz

Its done, well mostly, predominately done. Done enough that it can be used. :thumbup:


----------



## joco-nz

I've recently gotten the old 3d Printer back into action after my son decided he wanted to use it while on summer holiday.  So I thought, how about wipers for the ways on the lathe?

So I started mucking about with some modelling in Fusion 360.

The first test, yes they are 45 deg angles and about 4mm top flat.



Hmm ... some measurements where not that flash.   That will teach me to eye ball it.












A revised model to be tested tonight using thinner dimensions so it should print faster.  The first prototype took 3hrs at 30% infill and a reasonably fast print head movement speed.


----------



## goldstar31

In my inmails  is  17th Nov 2017 to Rotorua for 3 days followed by a magical mystery tour of the Southern Part of North Island- for a week'

this is from HK, James?  Is Wellington ---magical?

Cheers

Norm


----------



## joco-nz

goldstar31 said:


> In my inmails  is  17th Nov 2017 to Rotorua for 3 days followed by a magical mystery tour of the Southern Part of North Island- for a week'
> 
> this is from HK, James?  Is Wellington ---magical?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Norm



Norm - depends on what you define as magical.   On a fine summers day WLG will look stunning plus there is a strong cafe culture in the city with some good ones over looking the harbour.

This side of Dec it's very changeable weather.  Last week we had a southerly then northerly change with a glorius sunny/still gap filled in horizontal rain then a gorgeous sunny still day all in the space 2-3 days.

If you are into the stuff that Weta Workshop has achieved, well we are the home to Weta and they have some fabulous tours available.

It's a small city with a really tight CBD so no need to spend lots of time traveling about the place.  But you have easy access to some local wine districts (in the Wairapra) or across the the upper South Island in Malbourgh.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## goldstar31

James,

One of the organisers is coming from HK on Monday for our Christmas meeting. I'll know more by then. 

We had a great time in HK and then Fiji in June and it probably has nothing to do with this hobby. Quite a lot about the first Tubal Cain- or so we believe.

My best wishes

Norm


----------



## joco-nz

Some more trial and error and a much improved design. Still some improvements to make but definitely getting there. I have some 5mm felt to use as the soft part of the wiper.  You might see (they are hard to spot in this photo) the small holes on the key faces.  They are for M3 screws to hold the clamps for the felt pads.


----------



## joco-nz

After a range of prototypes and mucking about with printer heating problems I have a working print for ways wipers on the AL320G.  A bit of felt cut to size, clamped in place and oiled up and it seems to work well.  Unfortunately I didnt have any black filament, so its GREEN Jimmy!  You might well ask, why make this?  Did you really need it?  Well [a] cose I could and * cose I could.  :thumbup:

I little more refinement on the V cutout (it could do with moving 0.5mm to 0.8mm to the left) could be done but its not critical at the moment. 


*


----------



## Roboguy

Nice work James!


----------



## RonGinger

Why not put the felt between the first bracket and the lathe bed? That would eliminate the square blocks and the screws. 

It is nice to see 3D printing used to make a useful part.


----------



## joco-nz

RonGinger said:


> Why not put the felt between the first bracket and the lathe bed? That would eliminate the square blocks and the screws.
> 
> It is nice to see 3D printing used to make a useful part.



That is a possibility and worth considering.  The main drawback is  if I need to remove the holder to put the following-steady in place (thats the mounting holes used by this bracket) I would have to then reposition the felt.  This design has it a little more self contained. Not sure yet how often i wil need to affix said steady.

If the steady is going to get a lot of use then I will need to revisit this deaign. A key design goal was to avoid drilling into the saddle.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

The next stage in the workshop setup is underway, fabrication of a stand for my BF20L mill/drill unit.  The plan is still a little fluid as I grabble with balancing getting a rigid design while trying to maximise floor space usage.

#1: the plans, but another variation is already being pondered where I revert to spans around the lower legs and reduce the angle bracing at the top and accept I can't store the band saw under the table but get more rigid legs as a result.



#2: All the steel parts that are not up for revision (basically the legs and top) cleaned and cut ready for welding



#3: The main runners of the top with the ends capped.  Not a bad effort if I do say so myself   8)   They almost look bought.



More pics as I progress with the build and refine the design.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## rodw

If it helps, my bandsaw sits beside the mill and the mill table travels over it. Just an idea.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> If it helps, my bandsaw sits beside the mill and the mill table travels over it. Just an idea.



So having the legs on my design closer in with some overhang of the table?
You have a pic hanging around of what you mean Rod?

I did have a variant where the legs basically formed 500mm sided square with around 250mm overhand each side.



J.


----------



## joco-nz

Carrying on with the mill stand build ...

Got the top all tacked then welded and the legs all tacked into place.  Starting to look like a stand now.

Centre supports for the mill to sit on all lined up and clamped in place.



Centres welded and ready tack up legs



Legs positioned and tacked in place.


----------



## joco-nz

Fully welded the legs up this morning and put the work on the ground this ... heck it LOOKS like a table/stand thing.   :thumbup:

Next is doing the height adjustable feet.  I might keep this approach a little simpler and easier than the lathe stand since it doesn't have so much weight on it (100KG less).

I'm still on the fence re the best way to brace the lets.  Oh well, will have to make a decision today/tomorrow so I can get this finished.  Well finished enough that I know need to the sheet metal for drip tray to complete things.


----------



## joco-nz

Worked on the Mill Stand's feet today using a variation of the approach used for the lathe stand.

Things went pretty well I think.

initial blanks



Nut welded in place and then later used as a tapping guide.



Tapped all the way through into the 6mm mounting plate.



Placed and ready for welding.



Example of the final feet. Not the best welding but it will hold enough for the forces in play.


----------



## rodw

There is no need to tap the plate as well when welding on a nut. The nut is engineered to hold what the bolt will hold. Rule of thumb is the thread does not need to be any thicker than the bolt diameter but in practice, 3 threads of engagement is all you need. Also consider this when tapping blind holes. Going deeper than required just risks breaking a tap.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> There is no need to tap the plate as well when welding on a nut. The nut is engineered to hold what the bolt will hold. Rule of thumb is the thread does not need to be any thicker than the bolt diameter but in practice, 3 threads of engagement is all you need. Also consider this when tapping blind holes. Going deeper than required just risks breaking a tap.



Yeah I know.   But I was having a bit of fun playing with the taps.  :hDe:


----------



## joco-nz

So I have a nice bundle of ER32 collets, 20 in all but having them in their individual boxes is a bit fiddly. So after looking at the online costs for wooden trays which only held 18 units I thought about this 3d printer sitting there and crying out to be used.  Hmmm ... little trays of 4 Collets, 5 of them and I have my 20 collets covered.  I can also arrange them in my draws to suit better than a big single long one ala the wooden ones being sold.
First order of business was to mock up a design for a single collet and them move from there.

A hacked up version with minimal infill and high speed printing just to get it off the print bed fast.   Visual inspection looked promising.



And it fits.  Perhaps not as high as I would like, so next version will be 5mm taller which will hold a little more of the collet body while still having a good amount to grab a hold of.   Got to love the ability to model and modify this sort of thing until you are completely happy with the result.  :thumbup:
Then its on to making a version for holding four and mass producing a few of them.


----------



## rodw

Now try adding a keyway on the sides so you can clip them together. That would be very cool


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Now try adding a keyway on the sides so you can clip them together. That would be very cool



Interesting idea Rod.  I'll have a play with that.


----------



## joco-nz

I seem to have temporarily won my battle with my printer and managed to get a four collet tray printed.  This took FOREVER to print as I put the fill density at 30%.   :wall:

What an idiot, way more plastic than needed and way more print time than should have been necessary.  oh:

However it workout pretty well and is SOLID. Some tweaks I did to account for extrusion variation and a better angle for the collet taper seems to have worked well resulting in a good fit.

See attached pic.   It's very ORANGE.  Not going to lose this tray in a hurry.  ;D


----------



## bazmak

A simple male dovetail on 2 sides and female on 2 sides
will allow them all to interlock.Perhaps mould any
future ones.Is there enough meat to machine the ones you have made
If you look to the horizon how far can you go with a modular tool 
holding system ?  Drills ,collets reamers end mills etc add infinitum
Perhaps a wooden frame fixed to a wall on an angle etc,etc etc


----------



## Roboguy

Very professional looking James!


----------



## joco-nz

A couple more pics.   I'm still doing simple trays as they are designed to live inside drawers and as the drawers have a rubber lining I really don't need to link the blocks together as friction is more than enough to stop them moving about.

Shows the general concept in the drawer.



Shows a 6 collet version.



The plan is to have 2 lots of 4 blocks and 2 six blocks (in orange).  This gives me storage for the 20 metric collets I have.  The single "purple" 4 block will be used for a few imperial collets I plan to get.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> A simple male dovetail on 2 sides and female on 2 sides
> will allow them all to interlock.Perhaps mould any
> future ones.Is there enough meat to machine the ones you have made
> If you look to the horizon how far can you go with a modular tool
> holding system ?  Drills ,collets reamers end mills etc add infinitum
> Perhaps a wooden frame fixed to a wall on an angle etc,etc etc



I'm looking into it both re general tool management within the drawers I have and in the particular case of the collets re the interlock concept.  I don't need the interlock ability at the moment but I'm mucking about with some male/female designs to prototype the dimensions.  Got to love plastic with its shrinkage, makes exact dimensions on holes and cutouts not very exact. :wall:


----------



## joco-nz

Some more progress on the mill stand.   I managed to work out a way to get a home for the bandsaw elsewhere in the garage which allowed me to simplify the design and just weld it all up.   :thumbup:

So here are a couple of pics.

Overview of welded frame to date.   Bottom frame is done but yet to do all the bracing yet.




Close up of one of the wheel mounting plates and the associated bracing to help spread the weight.  Plus I had this 80x80 angle iron that was just crying out to get some use.


----------



## joco-nz

Progress continues.  Putting the bracing on now.  This thing is not going flex goddammit!  *knuppel2*


----------



## joco-nz

After much faffing about I have a drip tray that is starting to look half reasonable.  Still some more welding on the back side of it and then a good amount of cleanup needed but things are starting to look promising I think.


----------



## joco-nz

Its finally done with great help from Bruce today dealing with the install and the fact I managed to screw up some measurements.   In my defence I did follow my plans to the letter and about 4 versions back it was all correct, however at some point I rejigged the central support dimensions and didn't also compensate the hole locations. The lesson being, doing changes late at night is "Bad"  :wall:

Fortunately Bruce talked me through the options    *club*

Net effect is mill is installed an now I need to get it all cleaned up and start using it.    First order of business thought will be to make a new drawbar with an M12 thread instead of this odd 1/2" Whitworth that is on the stock bar.


----------



## rodw

James, Have a read of my drawbar adventure in my shed thread starting about here
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=19885&page=5
This was the first thread I had cut and the guys on this forum talked me through it step by step. If you happen to have a collet block set, you can mill the square head perfectly. I've got a feeling I milled it before I had them though..


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks Rob.  Yes I have read your adventure in threading a number of times.  I've had a crack and managed to get a reasonable M12 thread done.




I've seen an interesting video by a chap who shows how to do threading in reverse so there is no panic about stopping things in time.  I'm thinking of having a crack at that approach at some point.

Did you ever work out if the thread chasing dial on the AL320 can be used for metric or is it only usable for imperial?

Cheers,
James.


----------



## Hornetb

Looks like a nice stand, but are you going to enclose it or make chip shields on both sides and the rear?

Mills make a hell of a mess and throw chips far and wide, they'll launch right over the sides of your bench top. Flycutters being the worst offenders.


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Did you ever work out if the thread chasing dial on the AL320 can be used for metric or is it only usable for imperial?
> 
> Cheers,
> James.



Thread chasing dials are just for imperial threads. Remember to change direction using the power switch, not the gear box lever. I had that wrong to start with. Also remember to engage the half nut lever or the pitch will be about double what you set. I forgot that once too!  

I think if you measure a 12mm bolt, it will measure 11.8mm so being .2mm undersize is a good thing I think.

BUt what would I know? I've only cut 2 threads :fan:


----------



## joco-nz

Hornetb said:


> Looks like a nice stand, but are you going to enclose it or make chip shields on both sides and the rear?
> 
> Mills make a hell of a mess and throw chips far and wide, they'll launch right over the sides of your bench top. Flycutters being the worst offenders.



Game plan is a plywood "box" with shelves and doors. Probably a couple of wide low profile draws at the top for holding cutters and chucks/collets.

But I need to leave a space for a box for CNC control electronics.


----------



## Blogwitch

THREAD DROP IN DIALS.

It all depends on whether your lathe is metric or imperial. The drop in dials should be geared up for whichever one you have. The drop in dials on most metric machines also require a change of gear on the bottom of the drop in dial to cater for different sized threads.

If you want to cut a thread that is opposite to what your machine is, Imperial on a Metric lathe, then you usually use the permanently closed half nut technique and the same vice versa, using the reverse on the lathe to get you back to the start.

But also, sometimes on a metric lathe, to obtain certain threads shown on the threading chart, the permanently engaged half nuts are sometimes required.


John


----------



## joco-nz

John - it's a metric leadscrew. 3mm pitch I believe. I have no extra gears for the dial chaser so whatever it's set for is fixed.  At some point I'll do some measurements to get the ratio relationship between the leadscrew and chaser dial gear. It might well be like Rod said, it's keyed for imperial thread cutting.


----------



## joco-nz

And a finished drawbar, again thanks to the finishing touch by Bruce.

[1] Blanks cut out from my pristine stock of 1215 steel



[2] The M12 thread is cut on the lathe and 17mm round is drilled and reamed to 12mm and all ready to start assembly



[3] Test fit looks good.



[4] finally all together and the square end cut on Bruce's Luxcut. Original bar in the background.



[5] A closer look at the thread.  I'm a little bit proud of this one as it's a very clean fit in the M12 ER32 collect chuck and let's face it, I'm an absolute newbie at lathe work.



[6] The first bit of work using the new bar. The virgin cut as it were.


----------



## Roboguy

Nice work James!


----------



## rodw

Roboguy said:


> Nice work James!



x2, I think I made mine in 2011 and to this day, I've only cut one other thread!


----------



## bruedney

That square was almost as complicated as the 4 tee nuts for the Bridgeport I don't have yet.

Now you can really start making things. no more mucking around with that welder 

:thumbup:

Bruce


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> That square was almost as complicated as the 4 tee nuts for the Bridgeport I don't have yet.
> 
> Now you can really start making things. no more mucking around with that welder
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> Bruce



He had to mention the Bridgeport - someones got cream on their whiskers I think.  stickpoke

When you get that monster and start cleaning it up I expect pictures.  Remember th_wwp cose there is th_rulze


Anyway I like making sparks, sparks is fun and I need to make that new clever stand for the band saw.  :hDe:

And I need to start on that engine, and make that wrench for the mill, and start the improved grinding wrest, get all the old decrepit paint pails dumped, get the wife's car in garage .... and and and .... oh dear lord!!  :fan::wall:


----------



## joco-nz

@Roboguy/@rodw - thanks gents.  :thumbup: excellent fun making it even something so simple.


----------



## Hornetb

joco-nz said:


> Game plan is a plywood "box" with shelves and doors. Probably a couple of wide low profile draws at the top for holding cutters and chucks/collets.
> 
> But I need to leave a space for a box for CNC control electronics.



No I don't mean around the base of the stand, I mean around the mill.

I have mine enclosed on three sides, hell it would be four if I didn't have to stand there, and it does a great job of stopping chips from flying around the whole shop. Then I just need to sweep and vac the front side. 

If I didn't having it enclosed the clean up would drive me nuts.


----------



## joco-nz

Hornetb said:


> No I don't mean around the base of the stand, I mean around the mill.
> 
> I have mine enclosed on three sides, hell it would be four if I didn't have to stand there, and it does a great job of stopping chips from flying around the whole shop. Then I just need to sweep and vac the front side.
> 
> If I didn't having it enclosed the clean up would drive me nuts.



Ah - got you.  Thinking a shower curtain type setup to keep it under control.  I don't have the room for something with rigid ends due to space plus the really wide table will pass over the end of the chip tray at the ends of its travel.   Such an approach should keep the worst of the mess around the base the machine/stand.

Make sense?


----------



## DJP

To deflect chips when fly cutting, I use a piece of heavy cardboard with notch cut out. It can be placed in any position on the milling table to do the job. I also tried a small piece of canvas with a magnet sewn into a hem. I can place it anywhere on a machine to stop chips from flying too far. 

Being overly neat and tidy is not my style but a sweep up after every machining job is necessary and keeping chips from flying too far is a good idea.


----------



## joco-nz

Started a little project to make a pair of toolmakers clamps.  I'm currently doing the first one which is quite a learning exercise and will no doubt result in the second being much faster and better finished.

Material is 1215 steel, 1/2" square since that is the stock I could source.  Each jaw is 110mm long, the all thread rod is sized M6 and is 304 stainless. The handles (next step and next post) will be cut from 1215 rounds, 12mm.

The plans and styles can be seen on the excellent site by Harold Hall.  I'm following the alternative style.
http://www.homews.co.uk/page260.html

The two top jaw bars chucked up in the monster 4 jaw.  Really need to get a smaller one of these. Squashed a finger mounting this thing up when it slipped and dropped onto the wood board protecting the ways. My sea faring ancestors would have been proud of the descriptive language used re said chuck at that point. :rant:
You notice between pictures I flipped the jaws around to get a better grip before commencing.  All a very good exercise in consider strength of grip on the work and how to center work on the 4 jaw.




The next three photos show machining a 6 degree taper to create a nice rounded nose on the top jaw.  It would have been simpler to put it in the mill at an angle and just made a flat angle.  But I think the rounder taper looks nicer. A slightly more stylish detail if you will.









And where I am up to.  Its starting to look like a clamp I would say.  A bit of a polish up and it will look pretty dang good.
Next step will be making the knobs and putting a grip pattern on them.  As I don't have a knurling tool yet I'm going to have to get a little more creative on that front.   Will be interesting to see how it turns out.


----------



## rodw

It looks very nice!

Didn't you buy a BXA tool post? Didn't it come with a knurling tool? Mine had 5 tool holders in a set and one was included.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> It looks very nice!
> 
> Didn't you buy a BXA tool post? Didn't it come with a knurling tool? Mine had 5 tool holders in a set and one was included.



Got mine from Machinery House, no knurling tool, but a selection of standard 201 and 202 holders.


----------



## rodw

Well, that was bad luck then...


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Well, that was bad luck then...



Not too worried.  Plan is to make one of these: http://www.homews.co.uk/page119.html

More machining practice.  :thumbup:


----------



## bazmak

Having made a pair of these clamps in the apprentice school about 55 yrs
ago and lost them many years ago I had in mind to make a pair.
Must say I like your method of turning the taper in the lathe.Looks great
its not something I would have thought of but will keep it in mind
You have certainly come in leaps and bounds since the beginning of this post
Congrats barry


----------



## joco-nz

Its been a wet day here on Saturday with some other jobs getting some attention.  But I did mange to get some machine time.

Pic #1 & #2:
First off I needed to be able to put a chamfer on the ends of the knob blanks. Up until know I have only sharpened the steel on my Diamond Tool Holder.  Given that style of tooling and the supplied jig rather simple stuff.   Today I embarked on my first free hand grinding of some of my HSS stock.  So with a 10mmx10mm bar of HSS I set about making my very first, from scratch HSS cutting tool.  Now for you old hands this is probably all pretty trivial stuff, for someone who last tackled metal working pre High School some 30+ years ago, its a case of "holy poop, I hope this works".  So taking into account the numerous videos watched and some real life advise and demonstration by a kind soul I set forth.  These pictures show the results.  And I am pleased to say it worked admirably.   Main shape of tool ground on the white wheel and the used a fine oil stone to get a final cutting edge. I remembered reading that its only fractions of a millimetre that accounts for the real cutting edge and that stoning beyond that is pointless, so I did that, saved a heap of time and seemed to get a good result. See Pic #3.





Pic #3:
Blanks with chamfered edges using home ground HSS tool.



Pic #4:
Then it was on to making the knob that is closest to the clamp noses.   This knob will be trapped using a pan head screw.  It was drilled through and tapped to M6x1 thread using a bullet nose tap on the lathe.  Power tapped at 60rpm with lots of cutting fluid and it was a breeze. Using nice/quality HSS taps makes a huge difference to the crappy carbon steel Frost set from Bunnings I got early on.
Then using a parting blade sunk it in 1.5mm to get the groove for the trapping pan head screw.
Then a bare kiss from a countersink on both hole entrances to make a nice clean finish.



Pic #5:
This is the high knob at the back of the clamp.  It will end up with a hole through it for a tommy bar.   This one was blind hole drilled to 11.5mm. Bottom tapped, again under power on the lathe with lots of fluid by with the chuck holding the tap spinning free and using my hand on the chuck to provide resistance and an effective torque break.   Once the tap bottomed out on the hole it the chuck just turned in my hand, giving plenty of time to kill the lathe. Then the lathe was put in reverse and the tap backed out. Nothing under stress, all at slow speeds, no drama and a lovely straight and clean bottom tapped hole.



Pic #6:
Over view of current state of play.  Next is to machine the knobs for a grip profile. Not having a curler yet I am coming up with alternatives to this problem  See pic #7 for plan render of what I am looking to do.



Pic #7:
Render of the grip approach for these knobs.


----------



## joco-nz

Managed to steal some more shop time this afternoon and got the knobs pretty much done, bar a hole to be drilled.

Pic #1:
The making ... slow and a bit messy.  I started playing with the suds I had.  Now I have to clean it all up.  Really got to get the air powered mister gadget built.  Or figure out a really effective way to clean up suds.
Anyway, basic procedure was a simple form of dividing using a hex block designed for ER32 collets and just turning it around against a reference to ensure it was always in the same relative position in the vice.



Pic #2:
However the result was pretty pleasing.  A little bit of work with some emery cloth/paper and it will be so shiny it will frost your eyeballs. :thumbup:


----------



## rodw

Thats very nice James. When I've polished stuff, I've used wet and dry  down to about 1200 grit with some kerosene and finish it off with some Autosol metal polish. Not sure if you get it over there but check the Car Parts shops. (eg. Over here - Repco, Supercheap, Autobarn etc). I've got a coffee tamper I made out of Stainless and an Aluminium handle that still gleams after a few years of use.


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Thats very nice James. When I've polished stuff, I've used wet and dry  down to about 1200 grit with some kerosene and finish it off with some Autosol metal polish. Not sure if you get it over there but check the Car Parts shops. (eg. Over here - Repco, Supercheap, Autobarn etc). I've got a coffee tamper I made out of Stainless and an Aluminium handle that still gleams after a few years of use.



Yup - Supercheap seem to have it:
http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/Product/Autosol-Polish-Metal-350g/345178


----------



## rodw

It also comes in a tube. It lasts for ages so no need for a pot unless you have to.


----------



## Cogsy

rodw said:


> It also comes in a tube. It lasts for ages so no need for a pot unless you have to.


 
I don't know how many mag wheels I've polished from my one tube that I bought 26 years ago, but I still have a small amount in that tube and it still works as well as the day I bought it. Oh dear, I just made myself feel very old...


----------



## joco-nz

Well the clamp is built.  I'll not bore everyone with the construction of the second clamp that needs to go with this.  It will no doubt be quicker, smoother and with less "oh crap" moments.

I have included a little gallery of pics of the final unit.   I have not yet embarked on a blueing or black oxide process.  I'll trial those on some test metal before doing anything on the clamp(s).

So a little commentary ...

Pic #1 & #2:
Front and back pics.  Back knob is loctited on with the permanent stuff which needs to be heated to 200c plus before it will release. So if I decide to black oxide things it won't be hard to remove for that process to be applied.  You should also notice that I have drilled the back knob for a tommy bar.  Since 4mm allen keys seem to breed like rabbits in my garage the hole is sized for such a bar (4.5mm diameter). A little detail, but important astetically is that the hole enters and exits at the circular part of two opposing flutes. I have to setup a handle for my countersinks so I can use them as a deburring tool for these holes.  At the moment they are a little "raw" on the edge, which I will fix.  You can also see the pan head screw holding down the forward nut.  I'll do a close up of that in a later pic.





Pic #3 & #4:
Just a front view with the jaws parted so you can better see the shape of the jaws at the front of the clamp.  Also a close-up to show the top jaw profile. You could do this profile top and bottom and for the "traditional" clamps where the knobs and threaded rod are on opposite sides that is what you would do.  For this style clamp keeping the bottom jaw square just facilitates being able to use the clamp in an upright position and being able to then use a t-slot table clamping system to hold the toolmakers clamp down at any point along the bottom jaw with no voids to worry about.





Pic #5:
Close up of the back knob with the tommy bar hole aligned to the end of a flute.



Pic #6:
Showing the use of the 4mm Allen Key as a tommy bar on the back knob.



Pic #7:
A little gratuitous perhaps but a closeup of the pan head screw holding the forward knob captive. This is a self-tapping 6g x 9mm 304 stainless screw with a thread diameter of about 3.4mm.  The hole drilled is 1/8" (3.175mm) to a depth of about 7.5mm, the screw is shortened on the grinder and carefully worked into the hole to avoid stripping off the head.  Yes I probably should have used an M3 or M4 pan head screw however I only had gunk metal M3 and M4 taper taps which I would rather not used on something like this.  I still have the option of going down the M4 path if I need to but this screw method seems to have worked ok.


----------



## Roboguy

Very nice work James! You're motivating me to try and squeeze in a bit of shop time. If work would just ease of a touch...


----------



## bazmak

Same here,brought back memories of a pair I made in trade school 55 yrs and 
the basic design has not changed so for nostalgic reasons I have just started 
to make a pair which I will post when done.Question Jono how do you take 
such brilliant phots that highlight your good work so well ?


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> Same here,brought back memories of a pair I made in trade school 55 yrs and
> the basic design has not changed so for nostalgic reasons I have just started
> to make a pair which I will post when done.Question Jono how do you take
> such brilliant phots that highlight your good work so well ?



Nothing too special. Just make sure there is a background to help highlight things.  I'm using a clean rag from a rag bag i bought from bunnings.  Anything white, cream and non-shiny will do. Also look for a place with good lighting from multiple directions. 

Camera wise I'm just using my phone. Now it's a rather good phone. iPhone 7plus.  So a good camera does make a difference.  On a few photos I use the phones built in software to post process a few pics. Just play with the light/shadow settings to get a better image with more definition and contrast of the subject.  That might sound complicated but its literally 20 to 30 seconds playing with a single slider to get the effect i want. And that is only on a couple of shots out of 6 or 7.


----------



## bazmak

As I said on my thread,try fitting both knobs to each side much better
that is the design intent.The clamps can be then rapidly wound open and closed


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> As I said on my thread,try fitting both knobs to each side much better
> that is the design intent.The clamps can be then rapidly wound open and closed



 yes I know they are fitted to one side and that was deliberate per the  Harold Hall design and observations on that style. I intend to make some  pairs that follow the classical design as well.  First rule - there can  never be too many clamps. :thumbup:


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks to everyone who commented or wandered by to have a look.   

As these little gadgets seem to hunt in pairs I thought I would round out this little project with a final pic of the matching pair of 110mm toolmaker clamps made per Harold Hall's design (THANK YOU Harold) following the "alternative" style.   I will make more of these in different sizes and mixing the styles as one thing woodworking taught me and I see no reason for metalworking to be any different "There can never be too many clamps!"  :thumbup:

Cheers,
James


----------



## bazmak

Photos are great as are the clamps.You have done a great job.YOUR knobs
are really great,why not keep up the high standard and taper both legs
maybe even radius the ends.To my mind perfection
I follow all (your only thread) with great interest.You started out as a newby
asking what lathe do i buy and you have become very confident and adept
from now on its all experience,with your first thread having tens of thousands of views.You have my admiration Regards barry


----------



## joco-nz

Barry - thanks for your kinds words. As I get into more specific projects I'll start splitting things up I think.  This thread is rather large.   However as I continue to evolve the workshop and its kit I think I'll keep posting into this thread.

My first planned real engine project will be to follow a series of articles from Model Engineering Magazine called "Helping Dad Make a True Vertical Mill Engine".  I have all the articles the plans and after an order this evening I believe nearly all the materials (some bought and some kindly donated by Bruce - bruedney).

This being a snap from the magazine of what I will try and achieve. If I get it looking that good AND running on my first engine build I will be a very happy man.


----------



## joco-nz

So essentially I need to make space in the garage to get the wifes car back in. So to do that I need to use up some box section steel.  Solution, make a better cart for the bandsaw.

So some pics of what has been done - welded top frames and laid out the general shape.






Today got into some more stuff ...
[1] Got the 40AMP plasma cutter unit all plumbed up to the compressor with double moisture traps on the line as I have heard that any moisture line the air will cause the torch to burn through tips rapidly.
Then use said cutter for my very first use of a plasma cutter - ever.

[2] Bandsaw cart progress.
Pics #1 to #3 show my first attempt at cutting stuff.  The slag on the back of the cut breaks off very easily with a cold chisel just being used by hand, no hammer.  The cut was done with a straight edge but I had issues with torch height.  I think I need to make some kind of support on the torch head that will keep the tip at a constant height and square to the metal. The same support could also be attached to a trammel system for cutting arcs/circles.








Pic #4:
The wheel mounting pads (6mm mild steel) which were initially hacked off with the plasma cutter then halved on bandsaw for a little more accuracy. Pads all welded on and ready to be drilled and tapped M6.



Pic #5:
Two wheels mounted.  I got one more mounted then I gave up for then evening.  After breaking a 3mm drill and a 3.5 mm drill I decided I was getting too tired.



Pic #6:
Close up of a mounted wheel with the M6 screws holding it all on.


----------



## joco-nz

A little more done today in between some family time.

Got the last of the wheels mounted.

Cut the mounting cross beams and the "tabs" that will be the bolt mount points.  Then laid them out on top of the cart.



What I can't quite decide on is if to have the bolting tabs on the outside of the saw body or on the inside.

Anyone think one is better than the other?  Ascetically I suspect the inside option would look cleaner.



Cheers,
J.


----------



## rodw

Looks good. Check the angle of the castings you are bolting to before you decide. Weld some nuts on the tabs and mount on the inside if you can. That will look the nicest and also be easy to install it.


----------



## joco-nz

A little more done.   Welded up some angle iron to create the "lip" that the tray will be placed in.


----------



## joco-nz

Continuing on with my theme of "just a little bit more" I've managed to make some progress in between other garage committments and my son wanting to make Woverine claws on the 3dprinter for a short film hes's doing with mates.

Got the cross supports setup and the saw off the old stand.  Things are all welded up now and ready for the next stage, putting the bolt tabs on.  Note: this pic was pre welding but other than some welds nothing really different.


----------



## joco-nz

Last update for the weekend.  Started welding the tabs that will sit inside the bandsaw's casting.  They need to be at an 82 degree angle so a little bit of trig showed I need about a 5mm riser to get the required angle.


----------



## joco-nz

woohoo!  :thumbup:  Finally got all the hold tabs welded and drilled and a trial bolt-up done.  Next will be welding the nuts on the back of the tabs, mounting and sealing the drip tray then paint paint paint.


----------



## goldstar31

Just a hint or two- so don't be offended.

Increase the size of that loose angle thing! Secondly,  Change the adjusting nuts to slacken and tighten - by hand.

'Twas what my old 6 x 4 had fitted as 'standard'

Regards

N


----------



## joco-nz

Norm - no offence at all!   

Adding some length to the "loose angle thing" is on the list as is a tensioning bolt for when its trying to clamp on somehting that doesnt go past the point of rotation.

I've managed to get by without having to tension/untension stuff too much.  But you are right having to reach for a spanner is wearing thin.

There are other mods by a fellow kiwi that I like the look of which are shown here: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,6363.0.html

I also have some ideas re leveraging this big ass frame to create some flat support/mounting space to the right of the blade (look at the saw from clamp handle end).   If do that then I get the ability to mount some big rounds of steel or caste iron to be sliced off in a single cut for such things as fly wheels in a single cut.  Where as at the moment I need to muck about with a fussy multi cut process as the boom hits the top of the round.

All good fun.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bruedney

Might have to get you to build me one of those. :thumbup:


----------



## DJP

Your frame looks sturdy enough to stand on which is a good thing. When cutting with the blade vertical I need to place my knee on the saw bed to prevent it from tipping backwards. The weight of the motor and gear box hang out enough to make it tippy.

You may need to stand on your frame when pushing a work piece into the blade. Now would be the time to weld on extra custom provisions if you need them.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP - good points and I have some ideas for rapid deployed feet to help with leveling on crappy garage floors and deal with the inevitable small amount of twist in the welded frame.

On the tipping side I deliberately designed to cope with the.  The base goes back a little further than where the motor hangs when boom is vertical. Net effect is I have wheels slightly beyond he heavy motor meaning its pretty dang stable. 

Still have more welding to do for add ons.  Which should see me finishing up this bottle of co2/argon. Then its onto to pure argon and TIG welding for some new fun.


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Might have to get you to build me one of those. :thumbup:



It's a little over engineered, but its rather nice and SOLID.   :thumbup: :hDe:


----------



## bruedney

Over engineered - by you - never!!!


----------



## joco-nz

Some more good progress with the switch being remounted and a new fitting to "knock" the off button in its new position.

The base fits nicely on the finalised mounting tabs (set on the inside of the casting base) with the bolts nuts welded on to to angled tabs.

Now to start working on the cut off support table.


----------



## joco-nz

Some more progress.   Key steps forward being:
[1] Frame painted up
[2] drip tray secured in place with drain plug installed to support coolant system 






[3] new mounts for switch and the cut depth stop



[4] version 1 of a cutoff "table" built and installed


----------



## joco-nz

Bandsaw mounted on newly painted cart ready for work on coolant/lubricant system and putting some cupboard space under it for bits and pieces.


----------



## Journeyman

James, you may want to think about using a seperate switch rather than the NVR on/off switch for the auto-off. If something goes awry it might not be a good idea trying to press the red button and have the saw drop on your finger. A heavy duty roller micro-switch in series with the NVR would I think be the way to go and put the NVR somewhere that you can reach in an emergency.
John


----------



## joco-nz

Journeyman said:


> James, you may want to think about using a seperate switch rather than the NVR on/off switch for the auto-off. If something goes awry it might not be a good idea trying to press the red button and have the saw drop on your finger. A heavy duty roller micro-switch in series with the NVR would I think be the way to go and put the NVR somewhere that you can reach in an emergency.
> John



John - at the moment I'm avoiding doing things that required new holes or the cutting/redoing of wiring as that will void my warranty.  This saw came with a 36 month warranty.  Really don't want to do anything that could stuff that.

Anyway, I have a plan to put a hydraulic cylinder on the down feed so, in theory, I shouldn't get into a situation where pinched fingers is the risk due to the saw dropping.

However, in the future a cleaner wiring setup would be desirable and your idea would come into play at that point.

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

A little bit of a mixed update on the bandsaw cart.

Just a little show of utilising some clamps and the toolmakers clamps in a way to get around clamping limitations of the saw vice.  At least until I can get some stock cut to make jaw extensions and the separation rod to keep the clamping jaw from pivoting.




I embarked on a bit of work with the brown stuff today getting some shelf boards made.  This is the one for the cart bottom and I also did one on the lathe stand while I was on a roll and managed to neatly use up the last of a sheet of plywood. This base will ultimately have some draws and cupboards added to provide a little more storage space and to keep all the bits relating to the bandsaw in one location.



This is the delivery end of the bandsaw coolant.  The steel block (I would have preferred Aluminium but I just do not have the stock) will be the basis for the mounting block for the flexi spout and for a hose barb to be screwed into.  I'll have to model this idea up and will try and remember to post the render/plans for what I come up with.


----------



## joco-nz

So I have the BOC 175 multifunction setup for lift-TIG.  Got a little D size argon bottle on rental to trial this process before committing to anything more.

So I'm learning and practicing and watching lots of educational videos.   So I thought I would share the work after having the setup functional, the results from Day #3 of my TIG journey.

It's not "great" but I don't think its complete rubbish.  The material being worked on is 35mm SHS with a 3mm wall.  Its hot rolled but with the mill scale scrubbed off.  All joints done using the dab method on the filler rod.  No lay-wire method.
First TIG tacks.  Seriously, only got to trying tacking things tonight.



A single joint to get warmed up.  Not too bad and a heck of an improvement on Day 1 and 2.



The results of welding 3 sections together all the way around.  All I have done is buff the welds up.  No other post grinding work. All in all having a lot of fun and starting to see why many people love this welding system. The temptation to get a nice little 200amp AC/DC TIG machine is definitely growing.


----------



## joco-nz

Trying to keep multiple projects going at the moment but thought this use of the cut-off table might be of interest.

Essentially I needed to cut some 60 degree angles and I didn't want to muck up the main fence which I have nicely set to an accurate 90 degrees to the blade.  Using a protractor to clamp a fence I was able to hold the steel sections securely and reputably at 60 deg to the blade.  Worked pretty well for the 8 parts that I needed to cut.


----------



## joco-nz

Another small change which was suggested to me by bruedney.

Such a simple thing and its like I have a new saw.  What is this change you might ask? A new M20 classic V belt.  I still had the original Chinese supplied belt. Looked ok, but in all honesty I wouldn't know a good belt from a bad one.  Anyway bruedney suggested a new belt might be a good idea, I sourced one from a local supplier (actually from Tauranga: https://www.bayengineerssupplies.co.nz) for a mere $3.40 (plus GST and $8 shipping so I got a whole bunch of screws to make it all worth while).  Anyway previously I had really bad vibration, to the point I was wondering if the wheels the blade ran on where not very concentric.   However put this new belt on tonight and the saw is better than new. It's rock solid and much quieter.

WIN!   woohoo1


----------



## ShopShoe

James,

My 4x6 bandsaw has aluminum cone pulleys for the V-belt. I have reduced vibration due to them being unbalanced and non-concentric.

Here is what I did:

1. Removed both pulleys and made a mandrel for mounting them in the lathe.

2. Carefully checked for "Roundness" with simple pointer, then dial indicator.

3. Gently bent them into roundness with various lever setups and by squeezing in my 6-in. vise.  ( I needed jigs made from wood to help with this.) (I also admit that I have a little experience with metal-forming, so was able to do this successfully.)

4. After I got them round, carefully skimmed V-belt notch sides in the lathe and checked with indicator.

5. Used Mower-Blade balancing cone device to determine if one side was heavier and relieved same (found casting flash on backside that could come off.)

6. After remounting pulleys, removed bade from saw and ran at different speeds while searching for vibration.

7. Made sure that not undue force would be put on pulleys while changing speeds. Tweaked motor mount and tension adjuster to make sure that speed-changing would not stress the pulleys.

8. Vow not to use the lowest speed, where the belt has to run on the outermost, largest part of the gearbox-driver pulley.

Best of luck with your projects. I am following your progress and your projects.

Thanks for posting,

--ShopShoe


----------



## joco-nz

Shopshoe - that sounds like quite an adventure.  Thanks very much for sharing. The pulleys on my saw are cast iron, so some constructive bending/persuasion probably isn't viable.  However things seem to be running rather well now. Fingers crossed it continues. 

Cheers.


----------



## joco-nz

I needed to make some tubes to hold TIG filler rod.  I had left over electrical ducting tube which is 32mm OD.  The problem with this is there is no standard plastic end caps for electrical ducting and its not a standard size for water pipe.  So how to solve it?  3D print my own end caps.

I also wanted to have a good way of mounting the tubes to the welding cart.  So I had a think and came up with a mounting frame that will hold the tubes and allow the frames to be clamped to the cart with some strong cable ties.

Pic #1 and Pic #2: Are renders of the two parts that have have been printed.





Pic #3: Is an over view of the final result with the end caps on the bottom of the tubes with the tubes mounted in the clamping frames and those frames cable tied to the cart.



Pic 4: Is a close up to a clamping frame.  You can see the black cable tie used to hold things to the cart.



Pic 5: Is a close up to the end caps which have been superglued to the ends of the tubes.



Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

A little more printing and a "splitter" cap that allows me to separate the 1.6mm Mild Steel filler from the 1.6mm Stainless Steel filler.

This was done a while ago but needed a little dremel work to clean out stubborn support plastic and smooth out some nobbles from heat fluctuations.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## DJP

Just curious how you retrieve partially used (short) rods? I have a drawer for flat storage of welding rods that became the default when first setting up my shop and like most of my shop the initial set up never changes. 

Perhaps I need and time and motion study but I fear that changes will just make it harder to remember where things are stored in the future.


----------



## joco-nz

DJP said:


> Just curious how you retrieve partially used (short) rods? I have a drawer for flat storage of welding rods that became the default when first setting up my shop and like most of my shop the initial set up never changes.
> 
> Perhaps I need and time and motion study but I fear that changes will just make it harder to remember where things are stored in the future.



That's usually only a couple of rods in use so they just sit on the top of the welding cart. When I start using a rod I cut it in half else its just too long and unwieldy.

J.


----------



## joco-nz

Today was a 200A AC/DC TIG unit install and play day.   Only problem was once I got the unit all unpacked I realised I didn't have matching hoses/regulator connectors.  Blasted BOC had decided to do stuff just a little too clever so the hoses and connectors for the BOC 175i were all slightly different to this units.  Net effect is I had to make a temporary hose joiner while I wait for the proper solution to get delivered next week.  So as to not waste my very limited brass I made a mild steel joiner to see me through the weekend.  Started out as 10mm round bar 50mm long then got, drilled 3mm all the way through and turned into a joiner for 8mm ID to 6mm ID hoses. Used some screwed hose clamps and this works a treat.



The next pic shows my very first aluminium bead attempts. Below the red line was a bit of a screw up until I read the manual some more and realised that the "clean width" mean the amount of DCEP I had v's DCEN.  I had set the % at 65 which actually meant 65% DCEP and that was butchering my tungsten. The last two beads had 35% DCEP set but the amps were still way to high.

I next unplugged the torches switch and moved to the peddle.  Wow what a different that made to be able to control what was happening.  Even though I can't limit the max amps on the peddle (it varies from 10A to 200A) its still much more dynamic. Given Aluminium is very very sensitive to the heat going in being able to change amps on the fly seems like a must. At least for newbies like me.

Anyway the beads above the line are using the peddle and while not flash are clear improving as I come to grips with the peddle control, dipping the filler into the leading edge of the pool and keeping a steady rhythm.   But most of all I'm welding ALUMINIUM!  :thumbup:



All in all a good Saturday and starting to extend my welding capabilities beyond mild steel.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bruedney

Maybe we can make Ali fittings for the printer - we could construct from separate pieces and you could weld them


----------



## joco-nz

bruedney said:


> Maybe we can make Ali fittings for the printer - we could construct from separate pieces and you could weld them



Yeah in like another 5 years when I might just be starting to get consistent.

I tried making a simple bracket this morning out of 19mm ali square tube with a 1mm wall.   I got there but dammit the welds look like a druken snail made them using worm poo.  Tungsten too big, torch too big and hard to manoeuvre in my newbies hands, and 1mm wall ali is super super sensitive to the heat going in.

BUT I got there.  :thumbup:


----------



## rodw

I don't know anything about TIG but I thought that on some machines you could set the maximum amps at the peddle. Can you do that?


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> I don't know anything about TIG but I thought that on some machines you could set the maximum amps at the peddle. Can you do that?



Not on this unit.  Its not that clever. Mind you setting the max amps at the peddle won't help the cause if that is still too hot.  It's just practice and the more I do the better I am at getting the control on the peddle.

After some more trials today I think a big chunk of my challenge is that the filler rods I have are way way to thick for the sized joints/material I am working on . I have 3.2mm rods and I need to get some 1.6mm or even thinner stuff.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## ShopShoe

joco-nz,

It looks like welding is becoming a big part of what you are interested in. Just in case you haven't heard of this source, I am posting a link to the Welding Tips and Tricks YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks

I have no connection to them, but find a lot to learn everytime I visit that site. 

My apologies if you already know.

Keep Posting your projects. I'm enjoying them.

--ShopShoe


----------



## bazmak

Rule of thumb is the rod dia = the wall thickness


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> Not on this unit.  Its not that clever. Mind you setting the max amps at the peddle won't help the cause if that is still too hot.  It's just practice and the more I do the better I am at getting the control on the peddle.
> 
> After some more trials today I think a big chunk of my challenge is that the filler rods I have are way way to thick for the sized joints/material I am working on . I have 3.2mm rods and I need to get some 1.6mm or even thinner stuff.
> 
> Cheers,
> J.



Some of the pedals I've seen have additional control knobs on the pedal itself. You'd probably get something for <$100


----------



## XD351

DJP said:


> Just curious how you retrieve partially used (short) rods?
> 
> Simple - bend the last 1-2 inches of the rod over so you can hang it off the top of the tube that way it can't fall down inside .


----------



## goldstar31

XD351 said:


> DJP said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious how you retrieve partially used (short) rods?
> 
> Simple - bend the last 1-2 inches of the rod over so you can hang it off the top of the tube that way it can't fall down inside .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I 'did' my City and Guilds as a manure student, it was mandatory to bend the hand held rods so as not to poke one's eyes out:hDe:
> Norm
Click to expand...


----------



## bruedney

goldstar31 said:


> XD351 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I 'did' my City and Guilds as a manure student, it was mandatory to bend the hand held rods so as not to poke one's eyes out:hDe:
> Norm
> 
> 
> 
> Hoping you meant "Mature student" as the mind boggles at what one would learn as a manure student
> :fan:
> 
> ;D
> 
> Bruce
Click to expand...


----------



## goldstar31

bruedney said:


> goldstar31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoping you meant "Mature student" as the mind boggles at what one would learn as a manure student
> :fan:
> 
> ;D
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a lot really! My father- his brothers, his father and grandfather were all blacksmith/farriers. There was a lot of IT about
> 
> I recall working on a farm during the war. There was a lot of it about.
> 
> I paid for my education- such as it was, by growing things like spinach and selling it along with tomatoes and things which had been grown on a mixture of household soot and pigeon manure from a sort of  septic tank.
> 
> Did it all work? Seemingly so as I was able to retire at 55 years and for 32 years, the money still comes in.
> 
> Where there is muck, there's money
> 
> Regards
> 
> Norm-- from what was a farm
Click to expand...


----------



## joco-nz

ShopShoe said:


> joco-nz,
> 
> It looks like welding is becoming a big part of what you are interested in. Just in case you haven't heard of this source, I am posting a link to the Welding Tips and Tricks YouTube channel:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks
> 
> I have no connection to them, but find a lot to learn everytime I visit that site.
> 
> My apologies if you already know.
> 
> Keep Posting your projects. I'm enjoying them.
> 
> --ShopShoe



Thanks ShopShoe.  Yes aware of Jody's work and subscribe to his channel.  Even bought a TIG finger from him to support his work.  It's great stuff.

Pleased you are finding some interest in my ramblings.  :thumbup:


----------



## joco-nz

A small update on the cart. I plan to add another shelf to
[1] support the coolant reservoir "bucket"
[2] provide an area along the base of the cart under the shelf to hold cut-offs

The tabs for the shelf are off-cuts from another project and TIG welded into place.  That in itself was a big learning exercise.  Moving from TIG welding all nice and comfy on a stool at the table to on the floor trying to align to the torch at odd angles with minimal support and doing uphill welds for the first time.  Oh well, who wants to make it easy?
:hDe: :wall: :fan:

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

Positional welding,o that brings back memories.I remember a little old fella
watching his lad use a crane to turn over a large pipe to weld the underside
He took his pipe out and quietly said.What are you doing lad. Im turning this over to make welding easier and more accessable said he.
Nay lad said the old fella they dont turn ships ovver,and quietly went back to
welding


----------



## rodw

bazmak said:


> Positional welding,o that brings back memories.I remember a little old fella
> watching his lad use a crane to turn over a large pipe to weld the underside
> He took his pipe out and quietly said.What are you doing lad. Im turning this over to make welding easier and more accessable said he.
> Nay lad said the old fella they dont turn ships ovver,and quietly went back to
> welding



Don't tell the old fella that during the week, the boys at work rescued a circumferential welder that had been lying in the weather at another manufacturer for years. I opened the control box, tipped the water out, gave it a few hours to dry out, plugged it in and it came up touch screen and all. It spins the pipe or whatever around and even holds the welding torch for you.... air rams position the tailstock live centre and move the torch into position all automatically..


----------



## joco-nz

It's been a while but I have finally started on the wheeled legs for the lathe stand.  This has been more important as I need to be able to move the lathe to the point in the garage where I have a 1-ton block and chain mount point.  Under which I can easily lift the lathe, do some hole sealing and start some shimming to get the lathe dead flat on the stand.

So here is what we have the draft design:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmjuntyp2ZQ[/ame]

The resulting steel work in play. This is 80x80x6mm angle iron, really solid stuff. Today was about drilling holes and welding the other side of the hing on with a mix of TIG and stick welding.  The TIG was all the outside fillets.  The stick work was on the tight inside fillets where there wasn't enough room to get my #26 torch into.


----------



## rodw

This is a rarely used but incredibly useful addition to a lathe stand. The original example I saw used a cheap hand winch to pull the two legs together. On mine, I got away with welding on a piece of 25 mm RHS on the bottom rail. I then turned down some 25mm steel rod so it fitted and I've been able to lever the wheels up into position just by stepping on the lever. But over time, I've needed some 25mm steel rod so the lever is shorter now so I'm not sure if it will work next time.... Personally, I don't think you need to tram the lathe on the stand when you have adjustable legs.

I do agree though that every home needs a lifting point. I also used this to unload my lathe and mill


----------



## joco-nz

I think i hvw some twist in the actual stand due this weld up that is the root cause.  If so then adjusting on the legs might not cut it


----------



## rodw

joco-nz said:


> I think i hvw some twist in the actual stand due this weld up that is the root cause.  If so then adjusting on the legs might not cut it



Don't look at my stand then. I'm sure mine is not perfect.... but its a pretty large and stiff lathe so it seems OK.


----------



## joco-nz

I did some checks tonight using Rollie's Dad's method and get 0.135mm delta between the near and far end measurements on the horizontal.  And 0.14mm on the vertical.  So definitely some work to be done.


----------



## joco-nz

Did a little more on the lathe wheeled legs tonight.  Cutting slots in the uprights so they can be fitted for welding.  Next need to drill holes for the mounting hinges and chamfer the ends of the legs for a tighter fit.  Then use these as templates for the the second set of uprights.  After that doing some cleaning and getting in there with the TIG on the easy to reach parts.   Then blitzing the hard to reach seams with 3.2mm 6013 stingers.


----------



## joco-nz

I did a little bit more on the lathe wheel legs and miss read my plans.  This resulted in the holes being in the wrong spot on one of the legs.  I did it correctly on the second leg.  So how to fix things.   Well I have TIG torch and I have seen guys built up holes with gas or TIG setups before.  So why not give it a go?


First off we plug the holes with mild steel filler.





Then after cleaning things up and grinding back to a flat finish started drilling in the CORRECT spot.






And the finished product.  Old holes all filled in and new holes filled. I could have achieved a similar approach with an oxy/gas rig but TIG is what I have and wth the foot peddle its quite easy to control the heat going into the metal.  The general approach was to close over the hole on one side then flip over, heat up the edges and fill in until its just a case of pouring metal into the centre of the hole.


----------



## joco-nz

I got some progress after what felt like a marathon drilling effort and got the first of the the hinged wheel legs installed. This one is the tailstock end assembly.  Things looking promising.  I feel a movable lathe before the weekend is out.






Okay this isn't a hinged leg.  But it is a sample of the TIG welding I did this morning when putting the final leg together.  I think I might have finally clicked with this TIG business.  All the welds were similarly clean and consistent.  :thumbup:  th_wavwoohoo1


----------



## rodw

Hey james, I just noticed you are using Google images to host your photos. Can you tell me how you do that? I've tried a few times without success.

Nice welds by the way...


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Hey james, I just noticed you are using Google images to host your photos. Can you tell me how you do that? I've tried a few times without success.
> 
> Nice welds by the way...



It's a little bit of mucking about but google is far less likely to do a money grab (since their $$ still comes primarily from advertising).   Anyway the basic process is as follows:

[1] Set up google drive and activate this setting in the "General" settings area:



[2] Now when you upload photos and put them inside this folder and setup what ever sub folder structure works for you.  I don't use any auto upload from phone features so I am not sure how things would operate under that model.

[3] When going to publish a photo you need to share it.  I have been setting the sharing to "Anyone on the internet can find and view".  Recent tests show that "Link only" sharing is sufficient. So you can utilize some of the UI short cuts to get that done faster. 

[4] Now open the picture from within the browser interface of Google Drive.  You will get the "presentation" type of look.  Something like this:


It is worth noting you can of course adjust/set the sharing permissions from here.  However if you want to share multiple images in one go selecting them and doing it from the file based interface is more efficient.

[5] Right click on the picture and either "open in new tab" or "open in new window".  You can now copy the url to the image in the new tab/window. This will be VERY long.  Getting the link directly from the image without opening the image in a new tab/browser does not seem to get you a permanent link.  So the result of doing this correctly will get you a link along the lines of:


> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/i69Qc7kJC7TxhkEHWyld6BXOnA5v-aFkpDEa1YilLJV2ju1uGvzTh4jFmL1AHRYw5wiBLULo1yQjxaY8St5Y6QsUP-MfmLLdi4ZcM95NZbPdV4rr8xYgbBrZV7Y-LVd-6qR8l7ZPt8Pz_ZDfLkO2SGpXFo4LBb6Dhwc1Hul4KB8ly0-mNJx4P3ErdUGF397_FVwuY541iuvkRC2Y7tLVcIlxYIdguxyxQXl_MPQ7VY7LlFoacNc79rsrHdGhMVmYv9QgD2xV6z_DkCdnjsPcNKi3WAdZD5UoKMzWzWHpa8iAz2x5QF-F2C868hBFSjH5XIHg6vq3rP78EmFBs6Af0u5YtC8z2_fX3F8Aou78U47XZIgzYyxno2TYVHCVtAD8Fe8oyfCdNUApdNr3d1o1FmgxstWNLMtHwqYBZU7jbVObm5Qs_a6xkqyVpdyA0v0v66itJK4rUTkH96sLqR_kBwKWu9uCc98IEH0hcXX5q-5sgfDATyKgGdeFgZLxCQYb-0lAlq7OSFV2gXbERIOfFSZF8d7XEroZMOKYYten5L60AQuiAUq1LAt49gh1geQpAdfViYXD=w1436-h816



Using this permanent shared image link you can just use the "Insert Image" from the forum response toolbar  to insert the image into posts.

You can have the image scaled for you via the url.  At the end of the url is where you can adjust the picture scaling:


> =w1436-h816


Adjust these [w]idth and [h]eight values to suit. The picture will be scaled to fit while still preserving its aspect ratio.  I have been tending to use this setting:


> =w800-h600



If you start reorganising your shared photos or change the sharing settings things will probably all break.  But then it is free.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

This will be a picture heavy post since its way easier to see than explain.  And probably faster.   Up shot is I now have a lathe on wheels.  So I can move it under the block and chain lift point and take it on/off as/if needed.

To start things off here is a close up of the construction of one frame. Not complex, not perfect but functional enough to do what I need.






Now for all the gratuitous photos ...




















And now we tension the pull cable and lift this bad boy up.

























Cheers everyone.  A good weekend's progress,
James.


----------



## rodw

Thanks James, clearly my little chromebook can't handle your photo embedding methods so I'll try on my PC later. I have actually paid for Google Apps for the last 8 years or so. Therefore, it is a logical choice for a photobucket replacement when they boot me off. I've got 4000-5000 photos there and thousands of posts on forums around the world that are going to be broken.

Your stand came up looking great!


----------



## fuddy699

hi , would just like to say that this is one of the best posts so far . i have been following this post from the beginning and have learned more as it sort of swings from the start to more of everything about machining and machine setup . the more people contribute to this the better . i remember that you were thinking of ending this post as you said it looked to be getting to long , at the rate of responses i think it should go on until people stop responding . thanks for a great read .


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks fuddy699.   I'm going to keep this as the general workshop thread as it seems a reasonable place to isolate my ramblings. Then do specific projects in their own thread, like I did for the grinder rest.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## rodw

fuddy699 said:


> hi , would just like to say that this is one of the best posts so far . i have been following this post from the beginning and have learned more as it sort of swings from the start to more of everything about machining and machine setup . the more people contribute to this the better . i remember that you were thinking of ending this post as you said it looked to be getting to long , at the rate of responses i think it should go on until people stop responding . thanks for a great read .



Yes, it is a great thread. Just looking at the stats. 80,000 posts since last year and my shed thread started in 2013 is at 115,000 so I think James will knock me off my perch pretty soon! There's only so much you can do in a mini shed

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=19885

I think its pretty amazing to see how fast James has progressed with his welding.....


----------



## DJP

I have a feeling that James has some hidden talent from the past that makes welding his new easy hobby. The ramp up of skill is impressive as is hand eye coordination. I'll bet that he is also a master at calligraphy or something like that. 

It helps to have time and a budget for machines too.

Congrats James on an impressive forum thread.


----------



## joco-nz

Gents - thanks for the kind comments and for putting up with my attempts at metal work.

After getting the lathe mobile I was able to also get it under the block and chain and remove it from the stand. The intent being to continue my checks of the setup in the quest of getting a well tuned lathe capable of turning very parallel work.  Something it is not doing to the level I would like.

So first off lathe removed.  Nothing special here but a bit of gratuitous "block and chain".  







After that the drip tray was removed and so were the adjustable feet.  Things felt pretty dang flat.  There was a very very minor amount of movement in the stand and just putting a single playing card (an Ace of Spades from memory) under any leg made things worse. Like I said, pretty flat.   Anyway from here I started assessing how flat things were across the top struts that the lathe is actually bolted to.  I dont have a super accurate engineers level so this is done using a long level I had from a DIY work around the house.

Top view of the lathe stand for reference to help visualise the different dimensions being assessed with the level.






Each the of the different checks:




















Having looked as these checks and I would say that the stand is actually pretty dang level. Nothing that a small amount of shiming under the lathe feet would solve at any rate.   On the plus side my welding and fabrication was clearly better than I thought as I was convinced there was a bad twist somewhere.

The next problem to investigate is how the chip tray is sitting.   The suspicion is that the amount the cross supports are raised is not quite enough to esnure that the drip tray is not actiing a bit like a spring.  This isn't an issue at the Head Stock end but given the Tail Stock is much closer to the edge and therefore the spring effect I think that might be having an alignment impact. Results of the investigation in the next post.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

James, James??? Who and what is going on?

What you have forgotten is that a lathe can run accurately bouncing about on the briny-- and still turn accurately.

Beware of old wives and whatever.

What you need is a lathe and not a stand  that is something called 'not in twist' Essentially, you need to fix your lathe on a FIRM base and then   play about with 'bubbles'

At present I'm sitting at my Sieg c4 which isn't even bolted down and it's on my old office desk with a composition wood top.

It doesn't matter a hoot if it is sloping but it does matter to ensure that the lathe is not twisted.

Does this help?

Norm


----------



## joco-nz

Norm - yup understand and not ignoring the lathe part of the equation.  I tried tuning it on the stand and could not for the life of me get to to run really true.  So I'm starting from the ground up.

I am also taking the opportunity to fix some things I am not entirely happy with.  I want to get things properly sealed for flood coolant and things were not sealed from initial mounting.  I also wanted to fix the drip tray which is not sitting correctly.

So while, as you noted, they probably won't be the main cause or even any cause they won't be helping.  Just removing possible variables and fixing some stuff I'm not thrilled with. Then it will be back to focusing all the attention on the lathe.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

So if you want your drip tray to drain away-- and not swill about,  your trays has to tilt.

If you want to have your lathe to be level in all planes, you have to find some means of  holding the lathe level whilst keeping the suds from staying in the tray.

My alternatives are to either shim or to use jacking screws between the tray and the lathe feet. You may have to put override the wheels and put in jacks. I seem to recall that you did this somewhere in the past-- but I forget!

Cheers

Norm


----------



## joco-nz

The wheels are a temporary fixture.  Once used they completely unbolt and get put away for a rainy day.  I do have screw levelling feet on the stand which allows dealing with some variation in the floor. I'm not sure how well this lathe will react to jacking screws given that would mean the feet will have very small support points at the head stock end.

This pic shows the headstock foot.  As you can see it's doesn't feel very meaty for putting all the headstock weight on two jacking screws.

I think shims will be the better path and as you have identified they will be between the drip tray and the lathe feet.   The "where will the coolant run to" question is still open and I need to ponder it.  I have some half formed ideas to work through.  Fortunately I get a little time each day on the train to consider these things before hitting the workshop at home.






Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

You are doing well.
So I'm pleased

Regards
N


----------



## joco-nz

After taking the lathe off the stand and doing some checks I came to the conclusion I wanted to allow a more easy flood coolant setup.  Something where I wasn't going to end up having to use sealants under the lathe feet to stop leaks.  The answer was a tray which sat under the lathes mounting points.

Concept design:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IN6Oby7aDg[/ame]

Tray built and stitch welded.





Put in place and help with clamps.










Next will be to seal all the seams and put mounting tabs on the lathe.

Cheers,
J


----------



## nautilus29

Nice job so far.  I wish I could weld like that!  It would be nice to have the chip tray at standing level like that.  I have to bend over to the floor to clean out my trays at work, and that gets old fast.  Only thing I'm noticing is the tray is pretty shallow and certain types of chips like to ball up, this may make it hard to pull out at times.  You can probably just pull those chips out through the top if needed though.


----------



## joco-nz

nautilus29 said:


> ... Only thing I'm noticing is the tray is pretty shallow and certain types of chips like to ball up, this may make it hard to pull out at times.  You can probably just pull those chips out through the top if needed though.



Yeah those can be a pain.  But with the mounts in place there is lots of room to reach in (with gloves) and get that stuff out.


----------



## rodw

Looks good James. A mate with far more experience than me reckons anytime he's seen coolant containers that depend on sealant, they leak. I think you will need to weld it out fully.


----------



## bazmak

Your quite correct that the lathe does not need to be level to work correctly
But the important thing is as stated that the lathe has no twist
The easiest way to check for twist is to level in all directions Mainly on 
the diagonals.I have leveled a couple of 3 piece slate bed pool tables
Started with a std builders level as you but had to finish with a more
accurate engineers level.Dont what effect a slight twist has on the accuracy of the lathe,but for most model engineers i dont think its too critical


----------



## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Looks good James. A mate with far more experience than me reckons anytime he's seen coolant containers that depend on sealant, they leak. I think you will need to weld it out fully.



Rod - the plan was to use that marine grade stuff that you used on your lathe feet. I can weld it out fully, not a lot of work but thought that Sika 291 marine sealant would do the business. 

Cheers,
J.


----------



## bazmak

If you have tig or mig then put on a full sealing weld.Clamp some heavy section to the sides  and keep distortin to a minimum. Weld about 5omm then leave a gap of 150mm then repeat.After a circuit repeat again.If you can get disrortion to centre to lift it slightly then this helps coolant flow


----------



## joco-nz

bazmak said:


> If you have tig or mig then put on a full sealing weld.Clamp some heavy section to the sides  and keep distortin to a minimum. Weld about 5omm then leave a gap of 150mm then repeat.After a circuit repeat again.If you can get disrortion to centre to lift it slightly then this helps coolant flow



Thanks - looks like I'm going to be welding bit.  :thumbup:

Already have the centre lifting on one half and the other half dipped.   So there is a natural pooling point.  I'll see if that stays after TIG welding all the way around.  For speed/ease I think lay-wire method will be the way to go. No need to try and stack-o-dimes this, I'm not trying to be cute here just effective.

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

A bit of 'Theoretical Engineering' here but this is in old parlance 'Oil Drumming'. The cure was often a wet plug of asbestos( shock horror) and spotting with an oxy/acetylene torch. Again, 30 odd years ago, I would have had a go with either a plug of wet newspaper or a shrinking hammer and dolly.

Tig was coming in and my experience was very limited. However, my thoughts are to put a pool weld on the middle of stretched sheet and see if it shrinks. 

On Saturday night, one of my old contemporaries had bought 'another Mig' because he was fed up changing point 6 to point 8 and vice versa and I was prattling on about firing mig wire through two sheets of body panel instead of plug welding with a notched mig gas shroud. 

Again, somebody here was prattling about theoretical Spitfires and elliptical wings were made -though I didn't tell them- with hammers and dollies in true blacksmithing tradition. One hammers on the wrong side!!!

Back to intravenous coffee

Cheers


N


----------



## bazmak

Brings back memories Norm, with a bulge i used to heat the centre
with oxy and cool down with a wet rag working from the outside in
Usually did the trick


----------



## joco-nz

Gents - did some googling and found references to "Oil Canning" and based on the videos it seems fit the description perfectly.  I can use the TIG like an electric oxy/acet torch and do some some spot heating and rapid cooling with a tight wade of wet newspaper.

I found someone doing the approach using a MAMP torch, would that work or is the heat injection too slow and too likely to spread too far?  From what I could see from the guys using a real torch they get a very small red hot spot. 

Cheers,
J.


----------



## goldstar31

joco-nz said:


> From what I could see from the guys using a real torch they get a very small red hot spot.
> 
> Cheers,
> J.


 
The 'hot spots' as you describe them were through holes made by ones fingers in the plug of wet paper or as Barry recalls, rags.

These MAPP torches are alright in their place. We were prattling about silver soldering- in the Olden Days and I remarked that my late wife did her stuff with a mouth blown alcohol burner.  My friend claimed that he still had one---------somewhere:wall:

I was introduced to the construction of three wheeled cars engine with motor bike engines and clad( yikes) on a wooden frame, panels from big oil drums. I guess that I was possibly 5 or 6. My Dad tempered the springs using charring with a bit of firewood.

You get a feel for metal

N


----------



## ShopShoe

"Oil Canning" refers to a panel that has a bulge in it so that you can push on the panel and it will pop in or out, like an oil can bottom.

The technique to take a bulge out of a panel requires an oxyacetylene torch, and a hammer and dolly. Sometimes water is applied after the heat to aid the process. (This is also called "shrinking.")

This is a technique used by old-time car body repairers on the metal used on older cars: Some of the metal used nowadays can not be manipulated in that way. 

There is a modern variation of the technique used with spot heaters to take out hail damage without damaging paint.

All of the above refers to car bodies and I have done it for car restorations, but I never got really good at it.

The one thing I can say is that this is a skill that takes a lot of practice to learn, no matter what size and type of metal you are working with. It probably also takes more patience than any other thing I have done in my various shop lives.

--ShopShoe


----------



## joco-nz

Thanks gents.   I've had a look at the base and even tried a little heat but I think there is just too much tension in there to release via heat shrinking. Looking about on youtube all the examples and discussions I have seen on this oil canning technique seem to deal with quite thin steel.  I'm using 2mm and I'm wondering if that is just a bit thick for this approach to work on?
Anyway, after much umming and haring I think I can actually use the mirrored bulging to my advantage.   The upward bulge sits under the headstock and the downward bulge sits under the tailstock.  This creates a very nice fall for liquid to run towards the tail end and pool in this downward bulge.   The other plus is that as a result the best place to put a drainage hole and pipe is well away from where the support brackets need to be. This makes it much easier to setup the tray for sliding in and out when needed.

Also I finished TIG welding out all the seams last night.  After letting this cool down I put water into the tray to do a leak test.   No initial leaks!
:thumbup:

I then left things for about 30 mins and felt along all the seams other than cool meal no dampness.   So I think I have a leak free tray.  woohoo1

Next stop is drilling for drainage, setting up required hosing and painting.


----------



## rodw

Just leave it overnight to be sure its leak free. 

If you have  a look in my buildup, I pressed a recess for an outlet with 2 different size sockets and a bolt through the pan. You can extend this technique, by machining a set of dies on your lathe. The boys do this quite a bit at work. If you did this at a size that worked for a sink plug, it would be perfect. Then just run the return coolant through a stainless steel colander on its way it back to the reservoir.


----------



## joco-nz

Cheers Rod.  I think given the amount of time I'll use coolant I think if it's not leaking in any noticeable way after half an hour then it's probably fine. Also once I put a couple of coats of paint on things and possible microscopic pin hole will be even more bunged up.

On the drainage hole front the idea a mate gave me was to drill small holes (say 3mm) in a pattern at the low point and weld or epoxy a pipe on the other side. This would do the same job and not need to go and make more tooling.   But I quite like the compression die idea. Defiantly keeping thy in back of mind for future things. 

J.


----------



## joco-nz

I knocked up some brackets from leftover 2mm sheet from the tray and some 25x3mm flat.  These will get welded onto the stand and act as supports/slides for the flood tray.







Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Bit of a big update from efforts over the last number of days.

Brackets welded on the lathe.





The tray setup on the lathe before drilling the drain, attaching the drip pipe and painting.










The drip pipe under the drain. It's stainless pipe and not having any correct filler rod I decided to try my hand at TIG brazing.  So out with the silicone bronze to see what I could manage.  Not great but not a disaster either and it seems to have no holes.





Painting the flood tray. Nothing very original here, had a pot of rapid dry enamel black so thats what was used.





Lathe back on stand and ready to start tuning again while setting the flood tray etc in parallel.





Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Okay we are back.   The drip tray is pretty much done and the paint is drying so while that happens I have gotten the lathe back on the stand and its all levelled up. This time no rubber pads under the levelling feet.  I also squared the base of the feet to the bolt in the mill.  Especially after re-welding them so they would be very unlikely to break again.  






I then embarked on an exercise to true things up using Rollie's Dad's method.  I know there are lots of discussions on how good or not good this approach is but it seemed to make sense, I had the tools to try so what the heck.   

I had some round bars that were rollers from a printer or photocopier (thanks Bruce!) one of which I used as the test bar.  Setup the 0.01mm test indicator and off we went.

Here are screen shots from the spreadsheet I used to track the numbers for the horizontal then vertical tests.










From these you can see the horizontal was pretty much on the money right from the start. The delta was very small and while I could have gone for even higher accuracy I actually don't have anything that measure better than 0.01mm.

The vertical needed a bit of work.  I started putting shims under the tail and no noticeable improvement in fact things started to get worse.  So I removed those shims (0.1mm thick aluminium from soda cans). I then put a set under the headstock end.  Since this "foot" is rather large and covers two support beams this means 4 shims in total.





This moved the delta to 0.03mm.  I decided that didn't seem too bad so decided it was time to cut a test parallel.   So to control over hang I took some ~19mm round bar and took some cuts over 100mm length using power feed to get a really consistent surface.   The moment of truth ...
Measuring the tail end.





Measuring at the head stock end.





BINGO! Cutting parallel.  Well at least within the limits of my 0.01mm callipers.
woohoo1th_wav

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

The stand starting to look like its old self.   Need to get on to the coolant side of things and will document that for those interested.


----------



## joco-nz

Not claiming much originalty in this as you can find a number of examples on the net.  However I thought I would share my attempt at a coolant system on these small hobby metal bandsaws.

Starting out with some hex brass stock thanks to Bruce for that material.  Drilling 6mm all the way through then enlarging to 11.5mm to a depth of around 20mm ready for the 1/2-20 tap.










All tapped and tested with the coolant pipe.





Next was to create the end for the coolant feeder pipe to go on.
Starting to turn it all down.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DC74XB3b80[/ame]





Comparing my work to the plastic fetting that screws into the submerged pump.





Ready to TIG braze the brass parts together.  For the record brass hates me when it comes this process.  I have had no issue with steel to steel. But Brass to Brass or Brass to Steel has been a nightmare.





The results after MUCH cleaning. You can see the figghts I had getting the silicone bronze filler rod to "flow" and the trouble I had with over heating the base metal in an effort to smooth out the filler rod.  But in the end it seems to be stuck well enough for what I need.










Ta da!  The custom fitting on the bandsaw, adjustable nozzel in place plumbed up to the pump system.





Steeping back and looking at the saw in total.





Under the system I eneded up having the drain drip straight into the bucket.  I'm going to look at this some more and see if there are some improvements to be had.





Now for some live action ...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZehAx5SY_gE[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caboxj0-Zy0[/ame]

Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

There is a tendency for some drips to travel back on the blade and hit the rear frame.  This will get worse the more of an angle the saw starts on. So having designed up the idea for a rear catchment system to catch the errant drips here are some pics of the idea pre welding.  You will see a small welding magnet in the pics.  This is really just holding things in place with its weight since the parts are made from 50x50mm ali angle.  Obviously if I was making these stands as semi production I would change the design to ensure the saw was fully on the inside.  But since this is a one-off this little addendum should do the trick nicely.











Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Got the parts welded and all cleaned up.   Plan for the weekend is to get things all mounted up.
















Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Some updates to the lathe stand.

[1] Boxed in 3 sides with 19mm plywood.  This has a benefit of keeping swarf and "crap" out of the shelves better but most importantly it added a massive amount of rigidity to the stand.  Really surprising amounts.  If I was doing this all from scratch I would incorporate 2mm steel sheet in the mix as well as a method to added wheels on slide in box section. Maybe one day if I get really enthused.





[2] Added a riser to the splash back.  This will prevent stray drops going behind the lathe and also provides a convenient area to stop tool holders and other items on.





Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

The name of this update was to provide toolholder storage.  I wanted them more easily accessable BUT not in a position that would have me reaching over the chuck. This holder style is not new as I have seen other doing the same type of thing.  It's basiclly 50mm Ali alngle cut into 40mm wide sections. The have them all mounted on a strip of woood.





The result all finished and mounted up.





Spacer at the bottom to provide some angle on the holder.





The top mount using 25x25mm ali angle.





Bungie over the toolholders when not using the lathe.  Down here in NZ the earth tends to rock and roll a bit so anything that can be shaken off really should have some kind of restrain on it. And I really dont want these heavy holders falling down onto the lathe.





General overview of the lathe and the growing set of improvements.





Cheers,
James


----------



## XD351

I too need to re- think my QC toolholder storage when i finally get my lathe back together !  Its been to hot here in Sydney to do much in the shed , today is food and grog then hopefully boxing day won't be a scorcher so i can get back into it .

Merry Christmas  mate .


----------



## joco-nz

Happy Christmas Ian and to all readers on the forum.


----------



## joco-nz

Over the last number of days I've been slowly working on another toolholder for the QCTP and while doing it I decided to make use of the setups to make a number of the sub parts for later .i.e. multiple M10x1 rods and the height/locking wheels.  I also delved into the use of the "Method 3" as described in "Screw Cutting in the Lathe" by Martin Cleeve on page 139. In this method the topslide is parallel to the ways, not at 29.5 degs (assuming a 60 deg thread form). In this method you achieve the same diagonal tracking of the tool tip by moving the topslide half of the cross slide movement.  The main advantage I can see is that it is easy to get to the correct depth via the cross slide then you can, if needed, thin the thread my moving the topslide a couple of 100ths of a mm at a time.

So some pics ...

The blank roughed out ready to use dovetail cutter on.





Some blanks ready for further work.   Wheels tapped M10x1 and the threaded rods cut M10x1 using the "Method 3" I talked about at the start of this post.





The wheels mounted on a threaded rod and held in an ER32 collet on the mill.  The block of the holder is a hex so you a pretty simple exercise of getting the depth of cut lined up (using an 8mm end mill and 1mm depth of cut from the edge of the circle) and just keep rotating the block in the vice until all the little half moons are cut out.





The end result with a completed toolholder and my last tool without a home mounted in it. The M8 cap screws have been shortened in the lathe and the ends make nice an flat and chamfered.  The threaded rod has had a flat milled on the blank head.  The rsult in an effective 8mm nut for locking the shaft in nice and tight into the toolholder base.  No loctite really needed here as there is no load on this part of the tool.










The extra parts that were made and in their sub assembly ready for three more toolholders to be made.





Cheers,
James.


----------



## joco-nz

Evolving the coolant system on the bandsaw with a "flash" custom built ali tank.

The weir welded in before other sides are put on.





Side panel in which the connection fitting will be welded.  This supports the tube connections between pump and the coolant line external to the tank.










Just showing my attempt at welding around the fitting.  Still getting more frosting from cleaning action than I think is supposed to happen.





Top view looking into the tanl with the pump in the position it will ultimately be installed in.





Bit of an overview of the tank to date.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzyB5bKHA6M&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

Next major activity is to fully weld all the seams up.

To supprt that process I needed a means to support my hand over a ~30cm welding seam at a really ticky height.  So taking inspiration from what I have seen on Welding Tips and Tricks I found some offcut 35mm square tubing, got some 20mm ID (27mm OD) galvanized pipe and a flange fitting from Bunnings and hacked this up. Key parts are:
- 1200mm length of 20mm galv pipe, cut that in half
- 20mm galv flange fitting, acts as the base
- off cut 35mm SHS
- M8 cap screws and nuts
















Cheers,
J.


----------



## joco-nz

Water leak testing underway ...






After a couple of hours still bone dry on all seams.


----------



## DJP

People build boats this way so if you are scaling up, a nice 30 foot sailboat would be a good project.


----------



## dkwflight

Hi
Good luck setting up shop.
My personal experience with the cheap chinese lathes does not compare to what others have gone through.
Some have bought and had no trouble.
Mine on the other hand I have come to regard as a "Kit" lathe. Much to try to improve or correct. My 7 x 12 mini is slowly coming around to be a usable lathe. There is a lot of information out there. You tube you cannot always take as gospel.  Some on the forums are the same among the truly knowledgeable.  

If you buy used you may be buying others worn out or broken stuff. I would try to take a long a knowledgeable person to inspect with you so you will know what the true condition is. Older machines may not have any repair parts available

Some of my experience on you tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8ledHmxu9hjDEgUq3cl4mw


----------



## joco-nz

Taking the tank further with lid and the start of the piping, just to show things are still slowing moving forward while being interupted by work committments.


----------



## joco-nz

In a bid to try and sort some space I thought I would get the computer up on the wall.   This might be of use to someone out there.  


The mess to be dealt with ...





Slowly winning on that front and making room for next steps.





Stage 1:  Cut out some 6mm steel flat and shaped to this triangle. Front plate is clearance hole drilled 6.5mm and the back plate is tapped M6.  With three M6 cap screws in place this is should be able to clamp on like a "really strong clampy thing" (alternative phrases failed the census checks)





Hand holding the vertical bracket before welding.





The result all welded up and on the wall. Clamped good and solid as well. The bracket is also painted with rust preventing black paint.





Ta da! Success.  With some bench space reclaimed!


----------



## joco-nz

A little update on some changes to the mill stand.  Really the next stage where I'm doing something more sensible with the space available.  And yes the top of the table is a mess.  I'm still tidying things up post working with the brown woddy stuff.

Pre modifications.  Big rectangular hole.






Everthing installed and a coiuple of shots showing the new look.


----------



## natalefr

IMHO It is not a good idea to install a milling machine on a trolley with wheels, a milling machine NEEDS a stable support as rigid as possible


----------



## joco-nz

natalefr said:


> IMHO It is not a good idea to install a milling machine on a trolley with wheels, a milling machine NEEDS a stable support as rigid as possible



I agree.  Hence why it’s not resting on wheels. Refer earlier posts on the mill table build: https://www.homemodelenginemachinis...op-questions-from-an-nz-learner.25880/page-24

Hopefully the bolt feet that extend and lift the wheels off the floor as well as allowing leveling are visible.


----------



## joco-nz

Been working on a no-fog cooler.  Its based off a number of plans generally available and with reference to the https://patents.google.com/patent/US5390854 for some more clarity on how it is supposed to work, pressures and some key measurements.

Still testing and the like but it seems to be working without atomising from what I can tell.  Like I said, more testing to do.



Cheers,
James.


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## DJP

I can see the application if cooling and lubricating a cutter bit is important due to high loading but in my case I'm running at hobby speeds. There is a simple spray gun used in industry that runs on compressed air passing over a venturi nozzle that sucks fluid from a glass jar. It's used to apply a thin layer of adhesive or paint. I have used it for touch up in automotive restoration. The spray pattern is round so not ideal but for small areas it works fine. Instead of building a spray gun why not just use one of these inexpensive industrial sprayers. I'll bet that it does 80% of the job.

Just a thought for your consideration but given that you have a prototype running don't stop now.


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## joco-nz

One of the challenges when using spray based cooling is avoiding a “fog” situation.  You really don’t want to be breathing atomised air born coolant.  The intention of this style of cooler is to blow the chips away, deliver some coolant and lubricant to the cutting tool so as to reduce cutting edge wear and improve surface finish while NOT generating a fog of coolant in the workshop. There are commercial versions but where is the fun in that. 

Also I will ultimately have a CNCd BF20 mill where such a coolant system will be be quite useful.

Agree that in a hobby situation you can get by without it. Maybe using a brush, squirt bottle, hand air gun or whatever works for the individual.  But heck I’m having fun tinkering.  Making tools for tools is just enjoyable.

Cheers,
J.


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## DJP

I saw that in your earlier posts when a welder was the tool that you used to make more tools. Enjoy the journey.

You are right that I simply brush on cutting oil where I need it and I use it sparingly to avoid the fumes (smoke) coming from a hot carbide cutter. I exhaust the fumes in my shop with a big blower mounted in the ceiling. A CNC machine will be enclosed but if you are breathing vaporized fumes additional precaution would be wise. I have painted a few restored vehicles and even with a good mask there is leakage. Perhaps just blowing cool air on a hot tool is all that you need.

At SKF where I worked many decades ago they had rivers of coolant flowing under the machines. Flooding the cutting or grinding operation was the technique at that time with the only downside being an annual shutdown to clean out sediment in the rivers.  Although oil splattered shirts were common.

Take care and have fun.


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## rodw

Geez, I've just spent $3k taking water out of my air supply (for my plasma cutter) and here you are putting the water back in!! 

I've not tried it, but I wonder if the air lubricator I've got here would be useful in this situation? Designed to oil air going to tools (Like my air engraver if ever I get around to mounting it to my plasma cutter.)

Anyway, I really think flood coolant might be  better for the application becasue it takes away so much heat! Parting and drilling are wonderful with flood coolant and on the lathe, I get mirror finishes.

PS. you've reminded me I should update my plasma build thread here...


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## joco-nz

DJP - cheers.  Having fun and that’s what it’s all about.  Good points re the CNC machine and something I’ll watch for. I’ve also been looking at some kind of big fan to move air around. But then just opening the garage door might be enough.  Suitably low tech. 

Rod - on my “big” mill I have built in flood coolant as an option.  Of course you then have a big messy clean up. But I do have the option if hogging some big stuff.
Still need to get the flood system on the lathe.  The tank is all built and I have the pump system proven on the bandsaw.

So many projects.  ;-)

Cheers,
J.


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## Shopgeezer

I bought two of these from Ebay for $6.99 US each and free shipping (how do they ship free from China?). Took two months to arrive but they made it. Haven’t hooked them up yet. The point about atomisation and breathing coolant in a home shop is of concern. I don’t know what these do, just dribble coolant or actually spray. 

So that begs the question about different kinds of coolant. I have a jug of some sort of brandX from the sale bin. Given that the average home machinist will be wearing, breathing and ingesting coolant what are some environmental and health conscious options?


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## DJP

To exhaust my garage/shop I mounted a furnace blower at the ceiling and directed the air flow into the attic of the garage. It's not connected to the house and the fumes exit through gable vents. It's very effective when welding so it might help extract coolant vapour during a machining operation.

In my case I'll give up a mirror finish for less contamination.


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## joco-nz

I have been building a QCTP holder for a DI today using the Dah Lih mill and the new no-fog cooler.  Conclusion is its working as designed.  Getting good cooling effects with low coolant use.  It worked very well with the HSS 25mm roughing endmill, the 10mm finishing end mill and the 60 deg dovetail cutter. At the end of cutting the steel block was quite cold to the touch. No warming at all, if anything is was noticeably colder than when I first placed it in the vice.

So here are the plans I have made up to reflect what was built.  Some observations to help ...
- The M5 holes are for the quick push fit air fittings I got off Aliexpress.  These could obviously be changed for whatever suitable air fitting and hole/thread size you had or wanted to use.

- The materials I used were:
Mix block =  6061 aluminium. This could just as easily be brass if you wanted to.
Tube, nozzle and M6 adaptor = brass

- The brass parts were secured to the tube using loctite or equivalent adhesive.
- The brass M6 adaptor was sealed into the mixer block using plumbers thread tape.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

For operating pressures after some tinkering I am using 20psi on both the fluid tank and the air feed.

I'm currently using normal old soluble oil in a 1:35 mix per its instructions. In time I will try and source some proper MQL coolant for this device.  I have found a local supplier who seem to stock a vegetable oil based coolant design for MQL use in mist coolers.  its not very cheap by 5 litre should last a pretty long time.

Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz

Here is a picture of the overall arrangement at the business end.  I opted for an approach that had the control valves away from the head.  Mainly because I did not want to be playing with knobs on the end of something wobbly.  So I have them back up the piping where they can be affixed to something more solid.  In this example I have them cable tied around the DRO arm.  I think this location will change when I get some segmented pipe to act as the flexiable arm.  Anyway, thought might be of interest.


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## DJP

I don't see the oil reservoir or compressor in the picture so I assume that you have shop air and if consumption of oil is low then any small sealed bottle with a tube to the bottom and air input should work. The real test will be the colour of chips. When I see blue steel chips I know that it is time for some cooling. If your misting cooler can change the colour back to plain metal then it is a winner.

Personally, I am avoiding added complexity to my machines. I prefer them simple and as originally designed. Besides, my workload on the machines is very light compared to a production shop. My grandchildren are learning to mill and turn so simple is good for them too. Eventually our son will take my entire shop to his property and I'll leave it to him to add modifications. Keeping the shop machines simple to use has a next generation acceptance benefit.

The blue tubing in your design makes a nice colour contrast for a separate system. I wonder why we paint our machines all in grey like a battleship?


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## joco-nz

Here is the "tank" end of the setup.  I opted to have pressure control on both the feed into the tank and the air line to the cooler head.  Just in case with different fluids I will get a better result with different pressures.  It's possibly overkill but at least I can tweak it if I need to.


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## DJP

Thanks


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## michael-au

I have a fog buster type system on my lathe and 

mill


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## DJP

I like the art work on your walls. Banksey would be impressed.

Hopefully the big clock is for decoration and doesn't actually work. I enjoy my shop more when there is no display of time.


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## michael-au

DJP said:


> I like the art work on your walls. Banksey would be impressed.
> 
> Hopefully the big clock is for decoration and doesn't actually work. I enjoy my shop more when there is no display of time.



The art is from a sign writer that I purchased the property off years ago
The clock has had a flat battery for about 9 years and i have no plans to replace it


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## joco-nz

Good looking setup you have there Michael.


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## joco-nz

Started making a long overdue dial indicator holder for the lathe and have been using the new nofog cooler.  The dovetail holder was hogged out with a 25mm roughing endmill then the dovetails cut with the 60 degree dovetail cutter.  All using the nofog cooler.  I have to say it did a great job. Air helped remove chips and the coolant with the air kept every thing very chill.

These are the "raw" parts at this point.






I will have more pics tonight after work.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

Some pics of the semi finished DI holder.  I say semi-finished as I still need to clean off some blue and generally give it all a sand/polish up.  But it is fully functional.


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## joco-nz

The welding table build is well underway.  It started with getting a 25mm thick section of 250 grade plate steel. Its rough dimensions should allow around 900mm x 1600mm after cleaning up the edges.






As you can see there are some old welds on this side that need to be cut and ground out.  A 230mm angle grinder with cutting wheel made short work of them.





All cleaned up and ready to tackle the edges





First cut made with 100amp plasma cutter.  Way cool fun! But 900mm long cut took some time to get through.





Finished up the two long runs of 1600mm each.





Now for the legs.  These are the blanks, 100mm box section with 6mm walls.





The mounting pads for the castors. 130mm square by 12mm thick mild steel.





TIG welded to the base of the legs. Put on the angle so that the bolts do not interfere with the leg walls.





Making the sub frame for table.  This is the first the "H" ends.





The final assembly of the subframe clamped up and ready for welding.





Next stop will be top.  At 300KG thats going to be entertaining.  Will post pics when done.

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

The welding/work table continues.  Today was D-Day. I was GOING to get this thing finished enough so I could get it home and into the garage.

First off is getting the plate on the welding table.  Having fun today with the forklift.





The placing the stand frame on to it. I did some math and based on the amount of steel in the frame its around 70 to 75 KG. Using the forklift to place this sucker was a much better approach.  Still quite impressed I got this placed with minimal repositions.





Back into the neighbours workshop and everything is tacked up ready for final welding.  Loving using the 350AMP MIG.





And finally at home.  Was a little bit of a mission getting this off the trailer.  370KG of table being controlled via chain ratchets coming off a tipping trailer was a little stressful. Things still to do include: get rid of all the plasma dross, paint all surfaces with rust neutraliser, a bit of grinding cleanup on the edges, 16mm hole pattern over 1/2 the table, probably using a 150mm hole pattern, some under table storage for clamps, angle grinders and maybe some machine tool storage drawers. Also want to mount a solid vice on an end.


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## rodw

Looks good. Re your vice, see if you can get some 65mm SHS and create a receiver like a towbar and mount your vice to a 50mm SHS that slides into the receiver.  Hold it there with a towbar mounting pin. That way, you can remove the vice and get it right out of the way when required. That was the best advice I received when I built my welding table.

Also rather than waste time drilling a whole heap of holes, why don't you just drill and tap them as required? eg. When you need to mount something, worry about it then.


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## Stone

Thanks Joco for the pics.

I would love a nice table like that. Been meaning to make one but putting it off because of the difficulty of working with the heavy table top!!


What is a 65mm SHS?


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## DJP

My welding table is a cast top with T slot milled the full length. I can slide a clamp along the T slot to a position to hold down work to the table. The T slot isn't necessary as mostly the work goes to the clamp so drill and tapping  a few holes will be fine. I mounted a vice at one corner and placed a Vise-grip clamp in the vise. Between the vice and clamping there are enough ways to hold two pieces (magnet too) for tacking.

Mostly I stick weld (old school) so a scrap of steel on top of the table is a good place to strike an arc and get the rod warm. Stainless rods like to be warm and when welding small components there isn't always room to lay a short bead in advance.

The final observation is that all tables collect stuff. Your large welding table will be convenient for other things like a tool box. Check back in 12 months and let me know if the table is still clear on top.

It looks like your welding table was a fun project. Life doesn't get much better.


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## joco-nz

rodw said:


> Looks good. Re your vice, see if you can get some 65mm SHS and create a receiver like a towbar and mount your vice to a 50mm SHS that slides into the receiver.  Hold it there with a towbar mounting pin. That way, you can remove the vice and get it right out of the way when required. That was the best advice I received when I built my welding table.
> 
> Also rather than waste time drilling a whole heap of holes, why don't you just drill and tap them as required? eg. When you need to mount something, worry about it then.


Good idea re the vice. Will look onto that.

On the holes side of things I get to borrow a magdrill and 16mm bit over easter. So the plan was to make holes while I had access to the right gear. The hole sizes align to the Strong Arm style of clamps. So i can either buy or fab my own. The hole spacing and half table idea I got from This Old Tony from youtube.

Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz

Stone said:


> Thanks Joco for the pics.
> 
> I would love a nice table like that. Been meaning to make one but putting it off because of the difficulty of working with the heavy table top!!
> 
> 
> What is a 65mm SHS?


Yeah, that heavy top was a challenge.  You need some form of crane or mechanical lifting machine. It would have been really challenging if my neighbour hadn’t offered me use of his workshop and tools. 

SHS = square hollow section. And the 65mm being the dimension of the square.  The wall thickness is missing. Given the intention to slide in 50mm box section I would guess a 6mm wall.


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## bazmak

You certainly have come on leaps and bounds since your first post.Most of us have been in a factory environment
and now classed as home model engineers.You seem to be doing it in reverse Best regards barry


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## packrat

quote { if my neighbour hadn’t offered me use of his workshop and tools.} sounds like you have a nice neighbour..
That is one nice table. I just got a 1/2 inch steel plate here in the USA and it was not cheep.


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## joco-nz

packrat said:


> quote { if my neighbour hadn’t offered me use of his workshop and tools.} sounds like you have a nice neighbour..
> That is one nice table. I just got a 1/2 inch steel plate here in the USA and it was not cheep.



My plate was flame cut from a larger section which looked to have been used for some kind of construction work as it had residual concrete on it.  The supplier had a whole stack of these. So LOTS of cleanup work required. BUT  the plate only cost me 340NZD including shipping. There was no way I could source new steel for anything like that.


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## joco-nz

A little more done on the welding/work table.

First off was to add some fixture holes. I'm using the standard 16mm hole so I can use some purchased tools as well as home made stuff.  The spacing is 180mm.  I didn't want to turn my top into swiss cheese so I felt this was a reasonable balance.  I also only did holes on half the table top.  Again not wanting or needing to have the swiss cheese effect.  I also wanted a part of the table I could work at without having the risk of small bit going down a hole and risk being lost.

So ... pics.

Everything marked out and the borrowed magdrill ready to rock and roll.





The first of 16 holes with the ejected plug.  Very cool how these gadgets work.





And on the 6 day there were holes!





Right now for clamps.  I already had some cheap Warehouse F-Clamps that I thought I could convert.  So step 1 was to cut off the fixed jaw as that was no longer needed.  These clamps did not have a pin in the jaw.  It was a press fit, so much easier to just cut off and not muck about with heat etc. The "pin" that goes into the table is turned on the lathe.  I have seen people using long M16 bolts with the thread cut off. But I had the right sized steel and a lathe.  The pins are total length 40mm.  30mm at 15.8mm as this gives a nice close but still easy sliding fit into the 16mm holes.  The top is 25mm by 10mm thick.  I then milled a 5mm wide by 3.5mm deep slot which nicely held the stem of the clamp. Then zapped things with the MIG. Super fast and east. Job done. The welds are not works of art. If I wanted that then TIG would have been the answer.  This was about getting them built and done with no fuss.





Two clamps "doing the business". I'll expand the collection and add in a few larger sizers (i.e. more reach).  These ones are 75-80mm but I will get some that are in the 100-120mm range.


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## DJP

Over the years, welding splatter will attach to your table top. If you consider the clamps as the negative electrodes then you could place a sacrificial sheet of aluminium foil between the work and the table. Just a thought for your consideration.


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## bazmak

Used to use large steel tables 5x4m for building stair stringers and balustrade
Angle cleats were tack weld on the top to locate other after the first as a jig
This meant that the tack welds and spatter had to be ground/linished off
before starting another setout the table top was damped down with water
The light rust made it easier to mark out the next Regular light sanding
does no harm to the table top


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## joco-nz

DJP said:


> Over the years, welding splatter will attach to your table top. If you consider the clamps as the negative electrodes then you could place a sacrificial sheet of aluminium foil between the work and the table. Just a thought for your consideration.


Interesting.  I take it that’s just to stop the bbs from to sticking?   I have been using antispatter weld spray. It seems to be working well.  Also the light rust is also helping in preventing spatter from sticking.


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## joco-nz

Another clamp for the table.  This one using a modified C-Clamp.


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## joco-nz

Table update - pretty much gotten the vice mount done. Some cleaning up to do like closing in the ends with some caps.  But funcitonally it done.

The receiver fabricated from 12mm mild steel and MIG welded outside joints.





Tacked up under the table ready to full weld up.  After this it got a bit ugly.  I spent quite a bit of time practicing and finding the correct settings for uphill welds.  I got there ... sort of.  Biggest issue was access to these with a mig gun was horrible.  Couldn't see what the heck I was doing.  The overhead weld ended up being cleaned up with multiple TIG passes.





The mounting frame for the vice tacked up and in place as a proof.





Vice mounted and ready to rock and roll.  Of course if its in the way and I need to remove it then just unlock the bolts and pull the whole unit out.





Showing the locking bolts. The plan is to add some T handles to these so they can be snugged up by hand instead of needing a spanner.





One removable vice.


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## ShopShoe

James,

Food for thought from one shop dreamer-builder to another:  I saw a YouTube video of a shop tour (Sorry, It was about two years ago and I can't remember who it was.) of someone who had a long bench with two vices mounted, one on each end of the bench and lined up with each other for long parts. If I was copying your build, I might put two removable vices in to do the same.

Me: I have brackets and clamps to add holding for long pieces at the "free" end opposite the vise.

By the way, I have been following your projects and I have to comment that your skills have improved over time and that your designs have become more inventive as time has passed.

Thank You for posting.

--ShopShoe


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## joco-nz

ShoeShop - interesting idea.  Current experience has been that when I’m dealing with long stuff (ie as long or longer than table length I tend to be clamping things direct to the work surface.  On this table that would mean a mix of F clamps or home made Fixture Clamps to hold things down.

My usage of a vice has tended to be in holding shorter work that needs to be filed, ground, free hand drilled, buffed etc.

I am intrigued with the dual vice idea and will have a snoop online to see if I can find some discussions on that use case. 

Also, thanks for the encouragement re learning and getting a little “better”.  I appreciate that. I am rather enjoying myself learning this stuff.  It was particularly gratifying to have my neighbor let me loose with his commercial shop and forklift without feeling like he had to supervise me every minute.  

Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz

Started on the plasma table cutting extension. 

Base frame built.  I didn't get the welding sequence quite right as after welding up I have about 4mm warp in the frame between opposing corners.





Added in the straps that will stop the slats from falling through. I had a good think about how this would work and the tensions that would be created.  I figured if I did this right and had the frame clamped down to the table I should be able to lock things in and get rid of the warp.










Net result is a table that is now dead flat, no warp! 

Will post more progress as I make it.  Only doing this after dinner in the evenings at the momement so not going to fast until the weekend.

Cheers,
James.


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## DJP

I have found that tack welding both sides eliminates the heat distortion. It's tempting with a jig or table clamps to weld the entire facing surface which introduces heat warping that even the strongest clamps won't prevent. Tack welding, then flipping the piece over and checking for square corners before tack welding the opposite side works best for me.


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## joco-nz

DJP - what you described is exactly what I did. The frame is bang on square within my measuring limits.

It was the flatness that went out of whack by a small amount.  ie when frame was flat on table there was a small rocking between two opposing corners.

But as noted, all fixed now.


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## joco-nz

Finalising the plasma extension as well as adding some handdles to the locking bolts.

Simple addition to the locking bolts.  Handles from 10mm round. Cut to length then cleaned up the ends in the lathe.  A quick blat with the MIG and done. Really easy to use and large enough to get good torque.










Started putting in the slats.  Used 10mm rounds to hold the slats in place but to also allow them to be replaced.  The box section is 35mm square.  Cut the rounds 30mm long and the slats are 3mm thick by 40mm wide.  So they protrude 5mm above the box frame.  You can see the spaces I cut. They are 2.75 inch.  That spacing with the 3mm thick flats worked out as the best mix without having way more slats that necesary.





All welded up.  Next stop is attaching it to a receiver.





The bracket welded to the receiver and supporting the frame.  Its made from 6mm steel so should be strong enough for this job.





All done and seems to be sitting nicely.










The current storage spot for it while not in use. 





All in all a good little addition. I have used it already. I actually cut the bracket pictured above on the table while I had it clamped in place as part of a test fit-up.

Cheers,
J.


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## rodw

Just catching up and good to see you included a removable vice. But I just can't understand why you did not turn the table over to weld it in. After all, that table can't be very heavy ! 

Seriously though, I seem to remember sticking to a 10mm top so I could lift it but even then it was bloody heavy!


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## DJP

I hate to be the one asking this question but what are your plans once your shop is fully set up? Will you start a welding repair business? Any plans for subcontracting small welding jobs as piece work? Your equipment may have excessive productivity for a home workshop.

As another project suggestion consider lining your shop ceiling and walls with barn tin. The place will be fireproof and easy to clean. When I insulated and lined my shop with tin it was cooler in summer and warmer in winter. That's just what you need for a production welding shop.

Take care.


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## joco-nz

I think the shop setup is the project. 

It’s very close now I think.  The only thing I would really like to have is a small surface grinder. Problem is finding something that is in the small class.  There seems to be more options on that front in the northern hemisphere than in NZ. 

I have a couple of things I want to upgrade. Like the MIG welder for example.  Just Cose I want more options/capability and I can afford it under the “sanity for life” clause I have with SWMBO. 

Projects to do include internal combustion engine and larger steam engines (size capable of powering a small wooden boat.  CNC the small Mill, portable CNC plasma cutter, eventually some powered model vehicles steam and/or petrol/diesel.   But I have a lot of learning still to do before jumping into those.

I might do some small paid work for people wanting stuff done but that the local businesses are not interested in as it’s too small. We shall see how spare time and motivation effects that idea. 

Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz

While my TIG machine is not a bad little unit one of its annoying limitations is how it treats a pedal.  When a pedal is added on unless it is of the dual knob variety the pedal will always do 0 to Max (200) amps. What you really want is to be able to set the max Amps that can be dialed up with the pedal while having the pedal giving you increased resolution across the new amp range. I suspect this circuit does not do that in a linear manner but the simulation does seem to be delivering on the capped amps. Will keep looking into things.






Big call out to Bruce who fixed my previous and very flawed circuit attempt.





https://falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?cct=$+1+0.000005+9.001713130052181+63+5+43 R+144+96+80+96+0+0+40+13.4+0+0+0.5 174+144+272+240+320+1+10000+0.49010000000000004+Resistance 174+416+96+512+144+1+10000+0.5099+Resistance g+576+96+608+96+0 r+416+320+496+320+0+50000 g+496+320+528+320+0 x+158+254+222+257+4+15+Pedal\sPot x+383+79+498+82+4+15+Max\sAmp\sControl x+421+348+491+351+4+15+Fake\sLoad w+240+272+416+272+0 w+464+272+464+144+3 w+144+96+144+272+0 w+144+96+416+96+0 w+192+320+416+320+3 w+416+272+464+272+0 w+512+96+576+96+3


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## joco-nz

Hmmm ... slept on this and did some quick measurements this morning.  Not convinced I have this correct.  More investigation needed.


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## joco-nz

I did some more tests and figured where I was going wrong. This should be the CORRECT circuit. Next stage will be to splice in a 10K pot and check it out with some welding.

Or use this link.

Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz

So I have implemented the test circuit and checked how it behaves. Looks like its working as expected. This is just a simple test setup. Next step will be to splice the control circuit into the control lead in a more permanent manner.


















Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz

Finished the max-amps control box on the TIG pedal today and successfully used it this evening.

Finished "soap on a rope" control box.  The switch essentially enables/disables the pedal by allowing me to stop the internal pedal switch from activating.  So when in the "OFF" position I can push the pedal to max and adjust the peak amp setting that flooring the pedal will give without having the welding activate gas and the HF start.  As you can see I managed to rip a bit of plastic out when drilling the switch mounting hole.  One of those blistering four letter word moments. But a little superglue and its all sorted and perfectly serviceable.  If it ever breaks completely I think I will replace it with the aluminium version.





And the overall look.  





Ultimately a very simple mod and for anyone with a Wave 200KD machine well worth the effort. You could probably do the same thing on any machine that has the maxamp limitation.

Cheers,
J


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## Ropetangler

Well done Joko-nz, I agree that a die cast aluminium box would be a good idea. Those plastic jiffy boxes are not really up to rugged workshop conditions as you have found. If just drilling a hole breaks a chunk out, imagine what a falling piece of steel, like a hammer would do, or even the effect of the box dropping onto the concrete floor.


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## joco-nz

Ropetangler - I’ll probably move to an Ali box at some point.  But given this is 90% of the time hanging in space per pic it’s (fingers crossed) unlikely to get smashed between the floor and a heavy object.  In the meantime I’m going to enjoy having the control I’ve seen others just assume exists. 

Cheers,
James.


----------

