# New to me Mill



## gld (May 12, 2022)

I finally snagged me a knee mill. Lagun FTV-1.  Going to order a VFD , and a DRO next week.








The seller inherited  it from his farther who bought it new.  He is sure there is a manual ,but hasn't found it yet.
In the mean time I would like to move the ram, but not sure how it is locked.






I've loosened the two nuts on either side of the crank handle (red arrows) and it will not move.  The ways are completely dry, So it   has not moved in many years. Some way lube will be applied.
I got on Lagun's web thinking I might find date of manufacture.  That web site sucks.
My serial # SE8511
All help appreciated.


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## gld (May 12, 2022)

Well, as it turns out, I did have it unlocked. Just didn't have enough leverage with only one handle. I made another handle and it moves easy now.
Thanks for looking.


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## ShopShoe (May 13, 2022)

Congratualtions on a new mill. I will be looking for updates when you get the VFD and DRO working.

I was glad to hear that you have the money for those additions.

--ShopShoe


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## ajoeiam (May 14, 2022)

How were you able to find such?

Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!


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## gld (May 14, 2022)

I found it on Kansas City, Mo.  Craig's list.


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## Richard Hed (May 15, 2022)

gld said:


> Well, as it turns out, I did have it unlocked. Just didn't have enough leverage with only one handle. I made another handle and it moves easy now.
> Thanks for looking.


I had a similar problem, the ways were completely glued.  I had to move it with an 8 ton jack.  finally got it to move and oiled it up.


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## Richard Hed (May 15, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> How were you able to find such?
> 
> Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!


There are tons of auctions in "your area".  I mean that Wasshingtyon State is quite too far to transport but you are within distance of many auctions selling all kinds of good equipent.  Look up auctions.


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## ajoeiam (May 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> There are tons of auctions in "your area".  I mean that Wasshingtyon State is quite too far to transport but you are within distance of many auctions selling all kinds of good equipent.  Look up auctions.


Tried that. 
There were some goofy expectations. 
Most wanted a payment bond presented before bidding was possible. 
So I was expected to send them some from $5 to 15k BEFORE being allowed to bid. 
(I was thinking of bidding on things like a grouping of drill bits or other cutting tools.) 
Then I was going to be stuck using some rigger that charged like $3k to load a 4k# lathe. 
Also had a rigger tell me that the only way that a radial arm drill could be shipped was using a double drop low bed - - - so that there would be transport clearance. 
(An idiot - - - - had no idea that the drill could be dismantled into three pieces!) 
Also great when it was a $200 fee for the packaging of a number of small boxes that were already on a pallet. 
When this kind of malaise became clear - - - - well - - - - no more auction flyers - - - -don't have time nor the money nor the inclination to deal with greedy stupid corporations.


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## Richard Hed (May 22, 2022)

I am in the market for a VFD.  Am looking at some.  the motor is 2HP, 3PH 240V.  Input is 240V 1PH.  Here is a Hitachi: WJ200-037LF

The price does not seem outrageous as some have suggested (I suppose it is outrageious for the amount of elecytronics in it).  I noticed the pamphlets that come with it have pages and pages of "cautions"

here is a different page: Variable Frequency Drives | ATO.com  --looks like cheapos

Here's one that seems expensive: https://www.southlandautomation.com/vfd?type=281

Any info is appreciated.  I knows there has been much discussion on this before.

PS, I am back from the Philippines and working on the Bridgeport.  Today we forgot to put in the blocks for the ram stop.  Got one in easily but the next?  Who knows?


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## xpylonracer (May 23, 2022)

Richard

The Hitachi unit you linked to is not suitable for a 240v 1PH supply, the spec sheet says 3 phase input and also it is rated for 3kW motor so oversized for your use. I believe Hitachi are a reliable make so not necessary to use a higher rated VFD than the motor plated size.

This topic is discussed at fairly frequent intervals on the UK ME forum and many people report good service from the RPC units, however there are always some who prefer to buy the most expensive units believing the lower cost units do not function properly.
Lower cost may mean there are some functions used in an industrial computer controlled production line (as on the TECO units) that may not be available but the important parameters will be present although the manuals provided do need a bit of studying to determine the function use.

Whichever VFD you buy will most likely be IP20 rated which could mean you have to provide some form of protection against dust,swarf and/or water ingress, all depends on the type of workshop you have, so you may want to allow for a steel cabinet of some sort.

If the VFD is enclosed in a cabinet the controls will not be accessable so you will need to add a remote stop/start/speed pot unit fitted on the machine to provide local control. The remote control can also have fwd/rev/jog buttond if needed.

xpylonracer


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## timo_gross (May 23, 2022)

xpylonracer said:


> ---- however there are always some who prefer to buy the most expensive units believing the lower cost units do not function properly.
> Lower cost may mean there are some functions used in an industrial computer controlled production line (as on the TECO units) that may not be available but the important parameters will be present although the manuals provided do need a bit of studying to determine the function use.
> 
> xpylonracer



One of the main, and often undervalued, functions of more expensive units is usable documentation.
Sometimes safety functions can make the "luxury" version interesting.

I prefer to pay for the luxury of a proper manual. Having the thing up and running in two hours, instead of researching for a week(end).

I was quite happy with some 2nd hand mitsubishi drive that I bought (FR-D720).
There is usually no harm done, running a smaller motor on a bigger inverter. 

Greetings Timo


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## ignator (May 23, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> I am in the market for a VFD.  Am looking at some.  the motor is 2HP, 3PH 240V.  Input is 240V 1PH.  Here is a Hitachi: WJ200-037LF
> 
> The price does not seem outrageous as some have suggested (I suppose it is outrageious for the amount of elecytronics in it).  I noticed the pamphlets that come with it have pages and pages of "cautions"
> 
> ...


Richard, that's not a bad price on a 5HP drive from Hitachi ($380). 
I've gotten drives from dealerselectric.com, a bigger problem is that many are out of stock from the current supply chain problems.
Most of my machine shop is ran on VFDs. I've removed single phase motors from the lathe and drill press and replaced them with VFD driven 3 phase motors. I did start out with a RPC for a Wells-Index mill, but didn't like the noise of the idler motor, and that it had to be started as a separate operation, and was remote to the mill location. 
I've had good luck buying used VFDs off Craigs-List, as well eBay. The big thing to watch out for, make sure it's a 200volt class, as the 400volt requires 440VAC input. I also make sure that the owner manual is available on line and download the pdf. I know there are some VFDs that are 3phase input only and monitor for that. But I've never had that issue.
My first VFDs were Tyco Flux Master models, they do not run at low Hz, as the motor will cog. This is because they were not sensorless vector torque models. So I recommend making sure they have that operation mode (which that WJ200 supports). 
Keep the wires from the VFD to the motor short, as longer ones will produce more EMI as well spikes, that could punch through the insulation of the motor. These newer VFDs limit how fast the voltage switching is done, to minimize voltage spikes. 
Don't mount the VFD directly to the machine, as vibrations can cause issues with components vibrating off the circuit cards.


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## ignator (May 23, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> How were you able to find such?
> 
> Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!


Where are you at in MN? I've been seeing many vertical mills on facebook market place at very resonable prices ($1500). They are typically rusty, as kept in a machine shed that is not humidity controlled. But it's all surface rust from years of non use and can be cleaned with abrasive pads and lots of elbow grease.
Like this one;




This is in Olin Iowa.  Войдите на Facebook

I've seen several over the past few months of lathes and vertical mills, from what appear to be farms selling off machines as the owner got too old.
Hope this helps.

So if I put in Minneapolis as a search location with 100 mile radius and "milling" search words, I get





						Log in or sign up to view
					

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.




					www.facebook.com
				



as the link I copied. If you don't have a FB account, you can't reply to the listings.


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## Richard Hed (May 24, 2022)

xpylonracer said:


> Richard
> 
> The Hitachi unit you linked to is not suitable for a 240v 1PH supply, the spec sheet says 3 phase input and also it is rated for 3kW motor so oversized for your use. I believe Hitachi are a reliable make so not necessary to use a higher rated VFD than the motor plated size.
> 
> ...


Thank you for catching that.  I misread the phase business.  I lookt up from that same dealer one that might be as good:  WJ200-015SF
, however, I thot that one should double the amount of KW (horse power output).  For instance, since my motor is 2HP, then a 5 HP output from the VFD should be used. Here's another: WJ200-022SF

I know nothing about these devices except for what I have read on this forum.  There was a discussion in which I get the jist of it was that because of power losses, one should get a VFD oversized. 

This is a mill (Bridgeport) and I doubt very much there will be much vibration.  However, this is a small garage shop for metal and occassionally some wood, but not often.  Dust should not be a major problem, however, I believe a small plastic or metal housing would not be at all unreasonable to protect it.  But vibrations?  I believe I should be able to attach the device somewhere directly to the machine for easy access without serious vibration.  Most things I will make will be small and occasionally something larger.  What's your advice?


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## ignator (May 24, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> <snip>
> I thot that one should double the amount of KW (horse power output).  For instance, since my motor is 2HP, then a 5 HP output from the VFD should be used.
> 
> <snip>


VFDs intended to run on single phase input, only need to be oversized for use over 3HP. The input rectifier diodes are what limits this, and they are oversized for units below 3HP to operate without damage.


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## Steamchick (May 24, 2022)

Hi Guys, Is it possible for someone out there to explain how the motor torque changes with lower frequency? I am asking because my only experience is with "Cheap" PM motor variable speed, where as the speed is reduced, the power (limited by the fan cooling of the motor!!) drops-off dramatically at lower speeds, and likewise the torque. (I can stall the motor at 70rpm main-shaft speed on my lathe, using a 3/8 whitworth tap in mild steel! My friends similar lathe, but with synchronous motor of the "same size" and gearing cannot stall the motor, at any speed.). I nearly bought a Mill-Drill from a guy who had added £400 of 3-phase 3HP motor and VSD controller to replace the 1.5HP motor and belt speed-change.... then was selling "to buy a bigger machine!"... Reading between the lines, he lost the "Power or torque" to make holes larger than something like 1/2" or 3/4", when he wanted to drill at 1" to 2" holes prior to boring. And he said the machine would not take the cuts he wanted to make with larger diameter tools.... So, I bought the "original design" of this mill-drill, and the gearing applied to the 1.5HP single phase 1400rpm motor will rip your arm off, as it multiplies the motor torque at lower speeds. (E.G. The spindle has 10 x motor torque at 140rpm...). So I wonder how your Milling Machine will be with VFD? Is that to replace Gearing?
I am curious, because I simply don't understand 3-phase and VFD... when it translates as spindle speed and torque.
K2


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## Richard Hed (May 24, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Guys, Is it possible for someone out there to explain how the motor torque changes with lower frequency? I am asking because my only experience is with "Cheap" PM motor variable speed, where as the speed is reduced, the power (limited by the fan cooling of the motor!!) drops-off dramatically at lower speeds, and likewise the torque. (I can stall the motor at 70rpm main-shaft speed on my lathe, using a 3/8 whitworth tap in mild steel! My friends similar lathe, but with synchronous motor of the "same size" and gearing cannot stall the motor, at any speed.). I nearly bought a Mill-Drill from a guy who had added £400 of 3-phase 3HP motor and VSD controller to replace the 1.5HP motor and belt speed-change.... then was selling "to buy a bigger machine!"... Reading between the lines, he lost the "Power or torque" to make holes larger than something like 1/2" or 3/4", when he wanted to drill at 1" to 2" holes prior to boring. And he said the machine would not take the cuts he wanted to make with larger diameter tools.... So, I bought the "original design" of this mill-drill, and the gearing applied to the 1.5HP single phase 1400rpm motor will rip your arm off, as it multiplies the motor torque at lower speeds. (E.G. The spindle has 10 x motor torque at 140rpm...). So I wonder how your Milling Machine will be with VFD? Is that to replace Gearing?
> I am curious, because I simply don't understand 3-phase and VFD... when it translates as spindle speed and torque.
> K2


I'm doing this because I have single phase power (240V) but my mill motor is 3 phase 240V.  It's just to get the thing to run but with that extra goodies of which everyone speaks it's praises.


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## timo_gross (May 24, 2022)

I think that is one reason why the newer CNC machines all have so big motors, because some run over a wide speed range without gearbox.
This is from a catalogue for a smallish machine (BT30) without gearbox. Curve is for a Fanuc servo driver/motor system.  3.7kW (for 15 min), and 2.2 kW (continuous) does not have that much torque on the lower end at all.
To use a HSS slitting saw bigger than 60 mm diameter; is already very difficult with that. Everything under lets say 500 rpm has very poor torque. (the thing puts out up to 27HP for accelleration and braking ).
Long story short: I would not remove the gearing system when switching to VFD.




Next question is: At what power rating would the Alibayzonfreight sell this particular drive and motor system? 27HP, 5HP or 3HP?
The machine tool catalogue sells it as 2.2 KW. 

Greetings Timo


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## Richard Hed (May 24, 2022)

timo_gross said:


> I think that is one reason why the newer CNC machines all have so big motors, because some run over a wide speed range without gearbox.
> This is from a catalogue for a smallish machine (BT30) without gearbox. Curve is for a Fanuc servo driver/motor system.  3.7kW (for 15 min), and 2.2 kW (continuous) does not have that much torque on the lower end at all.
> To use a HSS slitting saw bigger than 60 mm diameter; is already very difficult with that. Everything under lets say 500 rpm has very poor torque. (the thing puts out up to 27HP for accelleration and braking ).
> Long story short: I would not remove the gearing system when switching to VFD.
> ...


You certainly won't catch ME removing the gear box.  My motor is 2 HP (wait, I really needs to double check that--maybe it's 3hp).  I understand how that power drop works--IMNSHO it would be foolish to remove the gearing.  Do people actually do that?  incredible


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## Steamchick (May 24, 2022)

Hi Richard, You have got your sensible head on as usual. The lack of gears was what stopped me buying the converted mill-drill! But the guy was an Electrical installation guy, so didn't appreciate torque, speed and power.
On my recent motor conversion on the SL lathe, I need to make a 3 x diameter pulley to retain the full range of belt-geared speeds.
I am using the Variable speed control to get the rpm and torque suitable for the machine, as the new motor runs at 3 x the speed of the original, but lower torque.
K2


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## Rocket Man (May 24, 2022)

You should be able to find a manual online.  I found my, Bridgeport mill, Reid #2 surface grinder, Churchill Lathe, manuals online.   I have not used my surface grinder in 15 years it needs to be gone, I don't need it for the hobby stuff I do now.


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## gsg (May 24, 2022)

Hello,
I used this inverter for a single phase Motor 230V 1HP and just removed the capacitor. I relized no differnce to a a 3-pase motor. All what you have to do is the installation of a fan, which I mountet just above the Motor fan in blowing direction to the motor. It is neccesary because the motor fan losses his airflow at lower rpm.


			https://www.amazon.com/XCFDP-220V-2-2kw-3HP-Single-Phase/dp/B09KN3MS45/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=F9S23VT4TRVN&keywords=VFD%2B220V%2B2.2KW&qid=1653386302&sprefix=vfd%2B220v%2B2.2kw%2Caps%2C147&sr=8-2-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExUVRHWVBZV0pNNTUwJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTEzNzg5OVRYT0tZNVM1OVRQJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4Mjg4NzQyNzQySzVUQjQzTlNDJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1
		


*XCFDP AC 220V/2.2kw 3HP 




*
*Best regards from Munich
Guenter*


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## Richard Hed (May 24, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> You should be able to find a manual online.  I found my, Bridgeport mill, Reid #2 surface grinder, Churchill Lathe, manuals online.   I have not used my surface grinder in 15 years it needs to be gone, I don't need it for the hobby stuff I do now.


Where do you live?  How big a foot print is that surface grinder?  How much do you want?


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## roncohudd (May 24, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, You have got your sensible head on as usual. The lack of gears was what stopped me buying the converted mill-drill! But the guy was an Electrical installation guy, so didn't appreciate torque, speed and power.
> On my recent motor conversion on the SL lathe, I need to make a 3 x diameter pulley to retain the full range of belt-geared speeds.
> I am using the Variable speed control to get the rpm and torque suitable for the machine, as the new motor runs at 3 x the speed of the original, but lower torque.
> K2


For my 2 mills I bought a 5 hp Baldor 3ph and mounted a 1/4 hp pony motor on top. Push button start then switch on. Plenty of power to run both mills at the same time.


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## Sprocket (May 24, 2022)

I'm pretty sure this is the current version of the one I have on my mill. Had a previous one for 12 or so years before it finally died.www.wolfautomation.com/vfd-2hp-230v-single-phase-ip20/ . Maybe it's even the same one


I ended up getting a second smaller one to run the power table feed.
They have been working well.
 (No connection to the company)
Doug


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## awake (May 25, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> I am asking because my only experience is with "Cheap" PM motor variable speed, where as the speed is reduced, the power (limited by the fan cooling of the motor!!) drops-off dramatically at lower speeds, and likewise the torque.


Hmm ... my understanding is that the torque is the same ... but because the speed is reduced, the overall power is reduced. When gears or belts are used to reduce the speed, the power is constant, but the torque goes up as the speed goes down.


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## Steamchick (May 25, 2022)

Thanks Timo. One picture says it all!
Andy, my premise is to do with "Ohm's law", etc....  but as a mechanician, I sometimes gets electrickery all muxed ip!
This is my mixed-up idea of what is happening...
In a *DC PM motor *(the motor I have), the field is constant, so the motor interaction force relies upon the armature current to generate the opposing magnetic field, derived from B=NI, so it is linear with current. This force - multiplied by the radius, becomes the torque "at that current". Power is the product of torque and speed, so torque is Power divided by speed.
I assume the max. current doesn't change, because it is based on the impedance of the armature (=resistance, when using a variable DC supply?). - Is this the flat-line at below 3000rpm shown for torque on Tim's graph in post #18? OR is there a magnetic inductance to consider because the windings of the armature are rapidly being connected and disconnected in sequence as the armature rotates? (Different from Tim's graph, which I assume as an AC induction motor - with Variable Frequency deriving the speed?).  How does this inductance change with rotational speed of the armature? - I can imagine that as speed increases, there is less time to develop full field (saturation?) in each winding before the armature switches it off, so the torque (mean force x radius) will drop off at higher speeds when the field-charging time becomes less than needed for max torque? This idea matches with my childhood understanding that (DC?) electric motors develop High torque at zero rpm, and the torque drops off with motor speed.
But do I need to understand any of this? Or is it as simple as 
"My bottom line?" I.E. 
My Unimat SL lathe with original motor - rated at 90W at 4000rpm => Torque = 0.0225 x 60/2Pi. Nm.
My new motor is rated at 500W at 12000rpm. => 
Torque =0.04167 x 60/2Pi. Nm. (too fast and too much torque).
So if I want to LIMIT the motor torque to the "original motor" value, I need to slow the motor by 0.0225/0.04167 => 53% of 12000rpm... so 6000rpm should be OK? (to not strain the lathe more than the original motor). Then I'll use the gearing to get the spindle speed appropriate for the turning job.... or will the different gear ratio then give me 1.5 times (6000/4000) the torque at the spindle - which could strain the lathe out of accuracy?
Sorry if I am asking the wrong questions in this thread, but it did seem to be looking at similar problems to mine? 
Thanks,
K2


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## timo_gross (May 25, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> So if I want to LIMIT the motor torque to the "original motor" value, I need to slow the motor by 0.0225/0.04167 => 53% of 12000rpm... so 6000rpm should be OK? (to not strain the lathe more than the original motor). Then I'll use the gearing to get the spindle speed appropriate for the turning job.... or will the different gear ratio then give me 1.5 times (6000/4000) the torque at the spindle - which could strain the lathe out of accuracy?
> Sorry if I am asking the wrong questions in this thread, but it did seem to be looking at similar problems to mine?
> Thanks,
> K2



If you gear down the speed to let the chuck turn slower and leave everything else same, you will increase the torque. (apart from friction losses)
That is the reason to use geared motors.

Now I am heavily entering the dangerous half knowledge area... 
At least some motors (all?, I do not know) run more efficient at higher rpm than at low rpm. At high torque low rpm the motor produces more heat. 

Some of the invertes adjust the current and the frequency. Some Inverter drives can limit the current ( as a result the torque) or run lower current if the desired speed is reached to save some energy. With that sort of more sophisticated drive you will be able to run slower with lower torque if that is desired.

Greetings Timo


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## SmithDoor (May 25, 2022)

gld said:


> I finally snagged me a knee mill. Lagun FTV-1.  Going to order a VFD , and a DRO next week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do not if you had Bridgeport mill in past. The sliding heat and rotating gives a reach on part without un-clamping of about 4 foot or more. Handy for some types of work. 

The only downside to Bridgeport mills is tilting head will auto till on heavy cuts. 

Dave


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## Iampappabear (May 25, 2022)

If you go with a frequency drive, do yourself a favor and procure a Allen & Bradley PowerFlex 40, there is no other drive on the market that has the smooth power at low cycles like this drive.  Lots available used on ebay and other similar sites.


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## Iampappabear (May 25, 2022)

Milling machine purchasing is a classic of the statement "timing is everything"  I purchased a "Supermax" Bridgeport lookalike which only needed a new drive belt for $500.00 sold it 2 years later for $2,000 and could probably got more if I had not been in a rush to sell.


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## Rich N (May 25, 2022)

Hi.  I bought a Maxmill 3Ph. 3Hp. mill and got a Westinghouse single phase input three phase output VFD to be able to run it.  My mill is belt drive so I just run 60Hz all the time.  Yes I lose 1/3 the HP, so, a full HP which puts me down to 2HP but I do not do heavy work just hobby stuff.  A side note is I was able to pick up a 3 Phase South Bend "Fourteen" which has a variable drive setup that is weird, and just mounted the VFD on the wall with an outlet below it so I just change plugs between uses.  I am a novice and this works for me.  Best of luck with the new machine.


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## Noitoen (May 27, 2022)

Torque on VFD controlled 3~motors stays constant over the whole frequency until line frequency. AC motors have a linear V/F curve so, when you run s 400V 50Hz motor at 25Hz, the motor will be supplied with 200V. if you want to maintain the torque up to 100Hz you would need to supply the motor with 800V without harming the motor except eventual problems with the insulation that was not designed for such high voltage. Anyway this is not possible with our regular VFD's.

What is possible is, running a 230V 3~ on a 400V VFD as long as you parameterize it as a 230 motor @ 50Hz. In this way, the motor will have a constant torque up until 87Hz where the motor is being supplied with 400V without damage. The motor will have 73% more power and the VFD must also be rated for this power. (This is the way I run my lathe with a 1500 rpm motor pushed to 3000 rpm @ 100Hz)

In the case of @Steamchick's question, on DC motors, the speed controller type is very important. Most controllers use some kind of phase control to reduce the voltage to the motor to vary the speed and at low speeds, the torque is greatly reduced. Some controllers will try to monitor the speed and compensate for the variable load and "try" to maintain the speed constant. 

Better control of dc motors especially those with magnets or shunt windings, is achieved with PWM control. In this way, torque reduction at low speeds is minimum.


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## Rocket Man (May 28, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Where do you live?  How big a foot print is that surface grinder?  How much do you want?



I am 30 miles south of Nashville TN right next to I-24.   Surface grinder is about 3 feet square the table is about 4 feet long.  Price is $1500.  It works good I have it wired to 240 volts we can run it so you see it runs good.


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## Richard Hed (May 28, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> I am 30 miles south of Nashville TN right next to I-24.   Surface grinder is about 3 feet square the table is about 4 feet long.  Price is $1500.  It works good I have it wired to 240 volts we can run it so you see it runs good.


Dang!  If you were on the West Coast, It would not bge a problem.  But Shipping from east of the MIssissippi has gotten prohibitively expensive.  I bet someone closer will snap it up.  I know I would if I lived within 8 hr drive.


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