# project of the month question



## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

i have been pondering for a while about the project of the month wich seems to be projects built to an amazing standard by mainly people who have extensive workshops skills and above all experience 
  as i am fairly new to this game i still dont have a milling machine and have to use other methods of makeing parts by use of methods from the dark ages such as filing sawing drilling etc and i have no chance for the forseeable future years being able to get me hands on such machines or skills 
  why doesent this forum run a project of the month specified for the newcomers and those of a lesser skill than the professionals running in tandem with the main project of the month why not newbie project of the month
  id love to hear other peoples thoughts on this idea / prospect 
 regards john


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## robwilk (Aug 6, 2010)

John I think that is a fantastic idea.
I like you are new to the game, have no training in machining and am learning as i go on mainly by making mistakes.
I have no mill either just a small Chester conquest lathe and a small pillar drill and some files.
But some times things go wrong more than they go right and a chance to be a project of the month nominee would give me and probably many others something to work for.

Rob


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## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

my thoughts exactly it would also give us a chance to see physicaly how we progress over time with new skills needed to create projects but not in a competitive way 
  regards john


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## IronHorse (Aug 6, 2010)

A lot of guys on this board have many years of experience machining, but I bet there are more members that are just starting out. It is amazing the quality of work that can be done with a minimal amount of machinery. I won Project of the Month with my Caloric engine a year and a half ago. I had only a lathe and a drill press at the time. Stick with it and do a lot of reading and I am sure one day we will be voting for your engine.

IronHorse


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## SAM in LA (Aug 6, 2010)

Not to toot my own whistle, I am an amateur and was nominated this month for my wood beam engine. I do not expect to win and if you look at the other two nominee's you will understand why I feel this way. This is absolutely an honor to be recognized by the membership of this forum. I started out last fall with a 1994 Shoptask which had been used and abused by previous owners. I started out by fixing what was broken or worn and learning how to operate it. With the help of this forum, I have learned how to set up the machine, how to perform various machining tasks, how to measure accurately, how to sharpen tools...... Be patient, you will acquire the skills and knowledge from the members of this forum.

SAM


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## robwilk (Aug 6, 2010)

Well done Sam that is a very impressive bit of work :bow:
But i am well below that standard I suppose that when people nominate somebody's work if they felt a newbie project was good enough to be nominated for the experienced project of the month then they could .


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## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

and ill second that emotion and do hope that project wins but ill admit im green with envy on the grounds that i am a joiner of 13 years by trade and never heared of a wooden beam engine exept for the old cornish tin miners pumping engines wich i havent seen in real life so have no clue where to start 
  an exelent example of what can be achieved :bow: th_wav :bow:
 regards john


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## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

its now become aparrent that the project of the month is not just for the experienced guru but for all of us 
  us newbies and novices just have to work our bo****ks off to get there but wouldnt it be grand if we had a lesser target to get us up through the ranks


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## mklotz (Aug 6, 2010)

Personally, i.e. this isn't a moderator opinion, I think it's a *bad idea*.

As soon as you institute a mechanism for grading projects, no matter who has the responsibility for doing so, you create an opportunity for generating ill will at a furious pace. We most assuredly don't need that. If we open the door to a newbie POM, soon someone will want an intermediate class, a sub-expert class, a postgraduate class, etcan. The whole idea of recognizing good work would be lost in a miasma of classification and bickering. I'd rather see POM dropped completely than have to endure that. 

The current system works just fine. Projects are nominated by the membership and those selections are made based on far more than the perfection of the finished project. Effort, attention to detail, ingenuity, creativity and the skill development of the maker are considered as well as the maker's presentation and narrative of the build. POM honors the process, not just the product.

I would encourage our newer members to work on your skills while you view the POM as an inspiration. The real satisfaction of this hobby, like most hobbies, comes from within, not from some exterior recognition.


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## tel (Aug 6, 2010)

> Projects are nominated by the membership and those selections are made based on far more than the perfection of the finished project. Effort, attention to detail, ingenuity, creativity and the skill development of the maker are considered as well as the maker's presentation and narrative of the build. POM honors the process, not just the product.



Well said Marv, captured the spirit of the thing nicely.

BTW Sam, my vote went to your engine this time - good luck!


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## Deanofid (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi John;
I understand your point of view, and I kind of wondered how a newer fellow would have a chance 
when I first started reading this forum. I wasn't new at this when I joined, but I remember the time
when I was!

After looking back, that is, way back, into the POM histories, it's pretty evident that nominations 
are sometimes made because of someones skill and ability, and some of those people do have a 
well equipped shop. It's also evident that many are nominated for their perseverance, willingness 
to learn, and commitment to making something good in spite of the fact that they have little in the 
way of machinery, and even less in the way of honed skills. Our personal skill is the only thing we
can truly improve upon. Having a shop full of tools does not a machinist make.

Some people do just nominate or vote for the flash factor, but I believe (and hope) they are in the 
minority. 
Most see and appreciate the struggles of the newer machinist and his/her determination and take 
that into account when nomination time comes 'round. Effort counts around here, for most of us.
Someone who starts out as a hack and stays that way will soon loose fans. One who starts out
bodging every step, and pressing on to make good on mistakes and missteps is appreciated.

You know the saying; "It's the man, not the machine". Or, "A poor workman blames his tools".
We all have a chance! Keep at it!

Dean


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## woodchip85 (Aug 6, 2010)

IMHO another part to the project of the is not only the finished article but the amount of time and effort that the nominees have spent updating us all on there progress, when you spend the time going back through all the posts you ll be amazed what can be learnt as well.


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## Jeff02 (Aug 6, 2010)

I think it should left as is, and I'm one of the new guys. 

If memory serves did Zee not get nominated for his efforts and rightfully so. Not only did his engine get him the nominated but his hard work and willingness to learn.

I say let the body make the decision.

Zee hope you dont think Im picking on you.


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## GailInNM (Aug 6, 2010)

I think HMEM has a fairly good record as far as simple projects for POM winners. I think the system is working fairly well. POM is not a contest. It's a way to to recognize an overall project, not just the finished product. 

Since Jeff02 mentioned Zee's engine, here it is. This was his second engine after someone told him how to turn his lathe on. And it was a POM winner. I don't think he showed us a photo of his first engine. (Yes, we all pick on Carl)






The next three photos are also POM winners.














And two more photos of POM Nominations that while not POM winners were winners in thier own right.


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## shred (Aug 6, 2010)

My votes are based for the best overall contribution to HMEM. 

In my book a beautiful engine with little writeup will get outvoted by a plainer one with more contributed to and from the forum.

These days it's usually a nice engine with a long build thread that wins and I can see how it could discourage some new builders. All I can answer with is to say to build your own engines for you and let the rest be what it is. 

FWIW, the little loco in my avatar got POM one month and was the 5th I'd ever made, but my enjoyment of it would be the same, POM or no.

We should use the gallery more. That could be a cool source of inspiration for all levels of builders.


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## 1Kenny (Aug 6, 2010)

Picking a POM is a hard thing to do. When it started it was decided to let every member decide rather than a small group. That way keeps things unbiased. I am so glad it is that way. We have a lot of the best model builders in the world on this forum. There is no doubt in my mind that I have to take the time to learn, watch and practice to have the result to match their workmanship. I fail in some areas due to ether my skills or the lack of some tooling. That said, they show me the way they did something and I learn from it. A large factor in getting me to vote for a project is the person took the time to explain and show how they did their model so other people can learn from it. What is a small thing to some person is a big stumbling block for another. An example for me is a very small cotter pin. I can't remember who it was, but a gentleman here posted how to make them. I was flabbergasted, they looked so real with the flat on the inside, the top curve and the tips you bend, I am still in awe how easy it is to do. Another fun thing I did was make a wobbler with a lathe, hand drill, hand saw and file. Keeping the standards high is what helps make us all better.

Kenny


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 6, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The real satisfaction of this hobby, like most hobbies, comes from within, not from some exterior recognition.



Right on. 



			
				Jeff02  said:
			
		

> If memory serves did Zee not get nominated for his efforts and rightfully so. Not only did his engine get him the nominated but his hard work and willingness to learn.



I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm thinking maybe you didn't quite mean to write it as it came across or I'm misinterpreting. Like so many others, when I vote, I take into account what contributions were made to the forum with respect to the nominated engine and Zee's projects excel in that regard. That _is_ his driving force in starting his build threads as he has stated so many times.

-Trout


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## stevehuckss396 (Aug 6, 2010)

johnthomp  said:
			
		

> why doesent this forum run a project of the month specified for the newcomers and those of a lesser skill than the professionals running in tandem with the main project of the month why not newbie project of the month



This could open a can of worms as far as "what is a newbie". Not sure it would be a good thing to go there.

Also John, me personally when I vote, I don't look close as to who has the best finish on there flywheel. My vote goes to the project I would like to have the most. That being said, you have the same chance of winning as a 40 year vet.

Cheers!

Steve


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## HS93 (Aug 6, 2010)

My Vies as someone new is defiantly leave it as it is, who is to say how new some one is to model angering anyway, so the way it is now I have something to aim for. on a level playing field. best wins.

peter


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## Jeff02 (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm thinking maybe you didn't quite mean to write it as it came across or I'm misinterpreting. 
-Trout
[/quote]

Trout, I think you may be misinterpreting and I am not the best communicator.
Zee did a great job on his 2nd engine and I Think he won because of the Fit and Finnish and also what he contributed to the forum while building it. I think you and I are on the same page I just have a hard time putting it in words.
No offence was meant to Zee just great admiration for a job well done.

This is why its best for me to stay quite.


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## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

i meant to have a newbie version showing a full build write up but on a newcomers first attempt at one of the engines or projects listed in this forums plans index section no matter how long theyve done engineering or been a machineist and reguardless of how long theyve been in this forum community because even some vets may be able to learn a nifty trick or two from a complete novice 
  i just thought the idea would add a little aim and incentive to all those lurkers we have to join in or atleast be inspired to do a full build write up without thinking the same as i about building an engine wich to me would feel like being under the microscope of the top dogs 
  and my original question was aiming at why isnt there a newbie POM ie looking for a reason why not 
  not asking as in why not as if im trying to force for the idea of haveing a newbie POM
 regards john


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## mklotz (Aug 6, 2010)

> wich (sic) to me would feel like being under the microscope of the top dogs



John,

Your choice of words here is both unfair and annoying. First is the implication that there are "top dogs" by which I gather you mean people whose opinion is more important than others. Many of us are on this forum for the simple reason that there isn't a perceived hierarchy. As with any forum, we have people with a wide range and wide depth of talents. Unlike most forums, they exercise those skills with a great deal of tact and diplomacy. You need to spend more time reading and appreciating the ebb and flow before making assertions like the one above.

"Under the microscope" implies excessive or unwarranted criticism of described projects. If you examine some of the newbie build threads you'll see that most everyone bends over backward to help the project builder over the hurdles he encounters. This is a very supportive group - especially so in the case of novices.

My suggestion is that, rather than trying to redesign the forum, you use your energies to start a build thread on a topic of your choice and see how it goes. I think you'll quickly find that folks are a lot more helpful and a lot less critical than you seem to imagine.


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## SAM in LA (Aug 6, 2010)

tel  said:
			
		

> Well said Marv, captured the spirit of the thing nicely.
> 
> BTW Sam, my vote went to your engine this time - good luck!



Tel,

I am honored by your endorsement.

SAM


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 6, 2010)

GailInNM  said:
			
		

> This was his second engine after someone told him how to turn his lathe on.



 Rof} Rof} Rof} Very true. (P.S. That was the 3rd engine. The 1st engine is in my Welcome thread.)

............

Gee. Sounds like I'm the POM poster child. ;D

First off...I've not been offended by anything in this thread.

Secondly, methinks this thread is turning into another misinterpretation of intent.

John's initial question is not much different from what has been asked many times before at the beginning of the month. And I do understand the 'microscope' thing. The way I took it is, knowing the caliber of skill on this forum, it's often difficult to say "look what I did". It hardly compares to some of the fine work. It takes a while for newcomers to realize that the forum is full of teachers and that this forum in particular is open to newbies and their development. That's why I'm here.

POM has evolved. It used to be Engine of the Month. Now it considers many/all/different aspects of the hobby. Including entertainment value!

I think like most 'elections' people vote for what they liked the most. So a newbie engine like mine can sometimes win.

Keep at it John.

Oh...and it's not true that length of thread matters...like many other things...it's the quality. ;D

(On the other hand, just showing an engine and no build is, in my opinion, counter to this program.)

I have more to say, but luckily for you all, it's another wine tasting tour time...


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## SAM in LA (Aug 6, 2010)

johnthomp  said:
			
		

> I meant to have a newbie version showing a full build write up but on a newcomers first attempt at one of the engines or projects listed in this forums plans index section no matter how long they've done engineering or been a machinist and regardless of how long they've been in this forum community because even some vets may be able to learn a nifty trick or two from a complete novice
> regards john



John,

I documented my first build, machine repairs and tooling I made. For me, documenting these things helped me make them better and think through the problems I came up against. I received so much help and advice from the members of this forum. No one ever made me feel bad or inadequate in my skills or the tools that I had available. Jump in with both feet and have fun.

Regards,

SAM


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## Cedge (Aug 6, 2010)

John
Having put myself through several online build threads, I can assure you you have things backwards. The microscope thing is not really a factor that is un-nerving, it's the feeling of sitting naked in Macy's front window that makes it difficult. If you blow it, there isn't anywhere to hide. Luckily this group will go out of its way to get you back on track and they do it with a high level of dignity left intact.

My POM vote is almost always based on the difficulty of the project, but even then it takes into count the skill level, sweat expended and determination to get it right. That took Zee over the top, along with several other new guy projects that have been honored.

My last POM took 4 months of working WAY WAY over my head. I'd like to think that was a much larger factor than the bling effect. It was a pretty engine, but I had to sweat bullets to get it done and running. These guys followed me every step of the way with encouragement that made failure unacceptable. For that I still find myself in awe of great the people here.

By the way.... with just over 4 very self taught years under my belt, I'm not about to let you or anyone else call me a "Top Dog" or any other superior label. I'm at best an intermediate with high ambitions and just too stupid or stubborn to quit.

Steve


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## don-tucker (Aug 7, 2010)

This forum and POM are as far as I am concerned super,and does not need changing in any way,the POM shows all what can be achieved in this great hobby for novices and experts alike.
The old saying "if it aint broke dont fixit" is very apt here,if I was good with words I could expand on this but would step on some bodies toes nodoubt.
Don


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## johnthomp (Aug 7, 2010)

once again i find myself in deperate need to justify a few things 
 1 i dont just vote for the prettyest pom i look for the one wich looks the more complex and intricate to build with the build thread showing the methods used and explainations of how people overcome certain problems and skills needed to improve or work on to get the desired result 
  this time round it had to be the wooden beam engine as i have contemplated building this engine from the plans on the john-tom website but as i am a joiner of some years i have built and rebuilt some rather impressive traditional oak rafter roofs and cottages not to mention the three masive bespoke oak staircases i built from scratch wich got a full 12 page centre spread in the uk lancashire life magazine 6 years ago 
  i can fully relate to how tedeous getting all those little joints cotters and such all to fit together perfectly really is and i really do take my hat off to the gent for haveing that much patience and persistance 
  2 the honest truth now about the way i word things such as ( the top dogs remark) its just me and my common upbringing as i was growing up i spent most of my time on building sites and such with common folk doing what they do in their little ranks such as a 25 yr old bricklayer nameing the 48 yr old bricklayer the gaffer but both parties calling the 65 yr old bricklayer whos seen it all (the top dog) meaning hes at the top of his game and so on 
  3 i am dyslexic so my choice of words is fairly limited as i dont know how to spell most things but just manage to get by most of the time wich is one of my main reasons for not haveing a facebook account twitter bebo skype or any other due to the ammount if times ive had to justify my wording of things in the past as people dont usualy clock my ailments and end up takeing offence to my way of expressing myself 
  another reason for me picking the wooden engine as a great pom is that the joinery/carpentry involved is intricate to the point of i cant do that anymore due to haveing picked up carpel tunnel ( constant shakes in both hands ) and vibration white finger from firing nail guns day in and day out for the last 10 years 
  especialy the hilti dx450 gun that uses live rounds to fire 3"nails into iron gurders
to create a fixing point for floor joists in lofts subsequently crawling round in lofts full of soot dust and depleted fibreglass wool insulation has wrecked my lungs so i get short of breath verry quickly nowadays and im not even 30 yet 
  i also have a mild form of autism in the way that i can look at any drawing /plan and know exactly how to recreate it perfectly without hesitation the reason i like this hobby so much i find the principle of it easy to follow but the skills are verry hard won 
 and my signature dont look at what something is look at what it can be works perfectly for people aswell 
 regards john


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2010)

There can only be one king at a time!!! The rest of us have to accept our position as dukes, earls, viscounts, or serfs. Sometimes I feel like I am "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride". I have submitted numerous builds to this forum, and have been nominated a few times for project of the month, yet never once been a project of the month winner. Whine, whine, whine. I'll just have to get better!!! Okay---I'm old school. Not all the kids in my school won a prize at every event. Each time somebody won, the rest of us were all losers, because we weren't as good as the person who won. Non of us were scarred for life by this. The message was "If you want to win, do better----try harder---or get out of the friggin race!!! I may never win project of the month.--(Sure, I'd like to.)---But that won't keep me from building, posting, and having fun on this forum. In this new age philosophy where every kid gets a prize at the end of the race so that nobody has their feelings hurt, something vital is lost.---Brian


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## Cedge (Aug 7, 2010)

John
In all fairness to you, this subject was taken up by the moderation team some time back. After discussing the idea at length it was decided to leave the POM as is for the foreseeable future. 

It's interesting to see some of the same points being made by the general membership. Other factors were the moderators' reluctance to take on the judging duties, as well as the realization that it would require a fairly restrictive set of rules. Since POM was never meant to be a competition, but as a means for the whole forum to honor the efforts of its members, we felt the idea would lead to problems we were not wanting to deal with.

Not to say your idea was bad, just that it was already seen as a potential can of worms no one wanted to open.

I note that you revisited the "Top dog" comment. What you seem to miss is that many, if not most of us come from hard working blue collar backgrounds, just as you describe. Others of us gained our skills in the dark of night, working all alone and making dumb mistakes we've never shared on the forum. I am one of those and I happen to know I'm not alone....LOL

Get your knickers untwisted and don't take every comment personally. We're here because we all love the hobby and enjoy helping each other. If that means getting the odd thump on the head for doing something that can get you hurt, take it as as the kindness it was meant to be. 

As for language.... self censoring is the best option. I try to keep my vocabulary on the forum to level similar to what I'd use when having a nice meal with my dear old sainted grandma. Asking her to pass the F'ing potatoes would likely get me ***** slapped just before she had one of her world famous vapors attacks. If you wouldn't say it to the local Vicar, perhaps it's best not said too loudly here....eh?...(grin)

Steve


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 7, 2010)

>Sometimes I feel like I am "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride" -Brian 

Brian, 

The Internet...it's a funny thing. As you know, when you post something for all to see, you can never fully know its effects. If you get any feedback at all, it will only be from those few who choose to provide it. The vast majority of people who have some sort of interest in what you have posted will never reveal who they are or what they think about it for one reason or another. When you take the time and effort to post something of value, whether it be anecdotal, advice, plans or a build thread, it is noticed and sometimes acted upon by many more people than some would guess. 

As an example: When I first started thinking about model engine building, I came across your very well written plans for the large beam engine. The same one that was published in the machinist magazine. I printed out all the pages that you carefully drew and placed them into a binder and studied them. I pored over each page, trying to visualize what would be required in the way of equipment and skill to make such a piece. Because of those plans and your article, I decided this might be a good hobby for me. 

-Trout


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## Cedge (Aug 7, 2010)

Brian...
Trout said it about as well as it can be said. Think of it as being a "wedding planner" without all those wilting flowers....(grin)

Steve


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## krv3000 (Aug 7, 2010)

HI we is all on a learning curve I'm time served I only started this Hobey to keep my hand in after bin made disabled all i have for macking my engines is a lathe and a pillar drill not even a good one at that I'm yousing skills that i first yous ed when serving my time ie filing sawing and to be onist I'm enjoying it still wood love a mill ;D
if i dropped a clanger when serving my time their wos a nice Peace of railway line in the corner that on more times than i can remember i had to cut a lump off 1" thick all the way threw all i can say is no mater wot you mack its you that has dun it and fi it dus wot you wonted it to do then brill no dawt if it dident you wood start all over a gane we all have had broken taps drills spent 4 days filing choping bashing  just to throw it in the bin most of the engines that i have made i have given a way to frends and famaley  and as you can see by my spelling not even spel check can put sum of my speling right so just have fun


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## Blogwitch (Aug 7, 2010)

I didn't really want to put this post up here purely because my views from the last time it was aired caused rather a large chasm between myself and a good friend. Luckily, friendship eventually built a new bridge.

But I am coming in from a different angle this time, purely to give some of these people who think they have no hope of ever achieving POTM a bit of a boost.

There are many different levels on here, and never will everyone be able to reach the heights some of the more mature builders will. But some of you do have a friend in me, and most probably a lot of other builders on here as well.

I don't judge whether a model is technically perfect or a museum quality offering. I personally look at what the individual has achieved within his limits, not how good he can program a cnc machine or put his many thousands of bucks of machinery to work or how much he can afford to pour into a project.

You must realise that someone who has a gross amount of experience can produce standards much higher than a lowly beginner in this game, and as such, with the majority of members on here who seem to think that bling and technology must always be the winner, then those people with the experience and resources will invariably win most of the time.

This is the first time I have voted for POTM, purely, because in my eyes, there was one entrant who deserved it the most, with me being guided by my own misguided rules.

I don't mind telling you who I voted for either, it was Sam and his wooden beam engine, plus I will also tell you why.

Sam, of very limited machining and building experience, poured his heart and soul into producing a posting and engine that even I would be proud to have done. Showing the pits he fell into, and how he got around problems that would not have caused the more experienced amongst us to blink an eyelid, but in his world, they were major. To me, the shear effort he put into it was admirable, and so deserved recognition.

Most probably he won't win, being beaten by more technical and elegant projects, but in my eyes, he is the winner.

Also to those people who don't have good communication skills. We can't all have had a good education, and as long as I can understand the rough gist of what you are on about, then as far as I am concerned it, makes no difference whether you can spel orr knot. It is how you show your skills and ability that matters (good or bad), and how much you put of yourself into the build (the heart). 

Being clinical and always perfect doesn't score any points with me, but human foibles and tribulations do.

Just airing MY views.

Bogs


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## Jeff02 (Aug 7, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> I didn't really want to put this post up here purely because my views from the last time it was aired caused rather a large chasm between myself and a good friend. Luckily, friendship eventually built a new bridge.
> 
> But I am coming in from a different angle this time, purely to give some of these people who think they have no hope of ever achieving POTM a bit of a boost.
> 
> ...



Bogs, I think you hit the nail on the head!


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## SAM in LA (Aug 7, 2010)

Bogs,

I don't know what to say except, thank you.

SAM


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## Cedge (Aug 7, 2010)

Well said Bogster. I've voted for more underdogs than blingmeisters, myself. Even a beginner has the chance to get my vote if he's swinging with everything he's got to give it.

Steve


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