# Tail stock advance



## robcas631 (Jan 12, 2014)

I bought a mill attachment for my grizzly 7 x 12 lathe. I find that using the tail stock to advance material works great. Problem is I'm am not getting the accuracy I want. I was wondering if there is an insert or tool available that can be mounted to the tail stock to accurately advance my mill?


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## Hopper (Jan 12, 2014)

robcas631 said:


> I bought a mill attachment for my grizzly 7 x 12 lathe. I find that using the tail stock to advance material works great. Problem is I'm am not getting the accuracy I want. I was wondering if there is an insert or tool available that can be mounted to the tail stock to accurately advance my mill?



No idea of a commercial accessory but there are several traditional methods of measuring tailstock movement. 

One is to use a long-travel dial-indicator to measure the tailstock quill movement.

Another is to index and mark graduations the tailstock handwheel. This can be done in the lathe, using change gears for indexing. Graduations are calculated from the knowledge of the pitch of the quill thread.

Another, but with less fine accuracy, is to mark increments on the tailstock quill by mounting it in the lathe chuck and using the knowledge of what one turn of the leadscrew equals to make equally spaced marks.

There is a lot of good info on this kind of DIY thing in an ancient book by "Duplex" (Ian Bradley and Norman Hallows) called "Lathe Devices - Their Construction and Use." Still available from Tee Publishing. (to whom I have no connection other than happy customer.)

I am not familiar with your particular machine but have to wonder why do you not use the carriage and lead screw to advance work for milling? 
A handwheel on the lead screw with appropriate graduations will give very good accuracy.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 12, 2014)

It is difficult to visualise the problem from your description but the cheap but not nasty way to get accuracy in advancing and withdrawing your tailstock barrel is by using a cheap Chinese vernier and grinding the jaws off.  Simply mount one end onto the barrel and the other end to the tailstock body- and zero and then read off your advance. That should give you perhaps plus or minus a thous and a half or better accuracy. 

 As you will realise, it relies on you seeing the advance - and stopping before it is too late .
 A more certain way is to mount an adjustable depth stop  either from the headstock or the saddle and either use vernier or blocks or even drill shanks. It's a bit old fashioned but you can make a rotating turret with appropriate bits of studding to vary the lengths.  

 One old worker suggested that ALL lathes should have something like this- to speed up drilling etc. I made up a similar turret years ago but discarded it in favour of one long verniers fastened to the bolt holes for the taper turning attachment and wired up to a little box of coloured lights. Pretty but no better than my earlier turret.

 Does this help?

 Norman


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## robcas631 (Jan 12, 2014)

Norman,

 Yes it helps a lot! Thanks!


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## Hopper (Jan 14, 2014)

goldstar31 said:


> It is difficult to visualise the problem from your description but the cheap but not nasty way to get accuracy in advancing and withdrawing your tailstock barrel is by using a cheap Chinese vernier and grinding the jaws off.



Doh! I'll catch up with the digital age one day. Still mucking about putting graduations on my 1936 Drummond and reading the old books from that era.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 14, 2014)

Hopper said:


> Doh! I'll catch up with the digital age one day. Still mucking about putting graduations on my 1936 Drummond and reading the old books from that era.


 
 Confessions, confessions, kind sir! I had a RB Drummond and as far as I know a former neighbour and friend is still butchering wood on it. 
 Apart from its Number 1 Morse tapers at each end, I had only a few 16DP cogs for it. Now, I have ALL the 16DP cutters but no dear old Drummond!

 As for reading old books, an old associate died fairly recently. I thought that he had had to scrap all his old copies of things. Perverse to the end, another old reprobate sent me copies. 

 Sadly, I now have little use in my left hand following an accident and trigger finger and arthritis in my right and am desperately trying to drive the handles with something called stepper motors. Whatever they are

 If I can get this out of the way and get more time after looking after my Missus, I might get round to photographs- and posting them.

 Be assured WE are not alone.

 Regards

 Norman


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## robcas631 (Jan 16, 2014)

A picture and sketch of propsed advance. What do you think?


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## robcas631 (Jan 16, 2014)

Sketch of idea 1. 
Idea #2: I might simply insert the advance onto a chuck in the tailstock?


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## goldstar31 (Jan 16, 2014)

Frankly, you might get away with it but, in what I can see, I'd have driven your attachment on the saddle using the leadscrew. If you truncate your triangle of forces, your pressure exerted is not in line using the tailstock. Consequently, you are putting unnecessary strains on the underneath of the saddle- and marginally lifting it.

 Again, if you follow my reasoning, you are doing exactly the same with the tailstock configuration. 

 Now having said all this, there is no reason why smaller things are not driven from the tailstock using a tailstock pad. Quite simply, the stresses and strains are far less.

 My take, others may have different views. Mine are these very old fashioned triangles of forces from Euclid and Pythagoras- a couple of ancient old farts- like me.

 Cheers

 Norman


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## robcas631 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks Norman! See the post by Deverett? It makes more sense.


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## Swifty (Jan 16, 2014)

Been following along on the posts, I can only assume that you don't want to rely on the divisions on the saddle hand wheel, I agree with Norman in that you will be lifting the saddle. Can you mount a plunger indicator on the bed to show movement.

Paul.


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## Wizard69 (Jan 16, 2014)

Swifty said:


> Been following along on the posts, I can only assume that you don't want to rely on the divisions on the saddle hand wheel, I agree with Norman in that you will be lifting the saddle. Can you mount a plunger indicator on the bed to show movement.
> 
> Paul.




I have to agree, I'm not sure where this tailstock advance idea came from but a dial indicator clamp on the ways would make more sense to me.

Edit:

Part of the reason here is that you often want to clamp the saddle in position when milling.   Generally having the tailstock out of the way just makes everything easier.


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## robcas631 (Jan 18, 2014)

A linear force is best. My lathe does not have a break, and even if it had a clamp would apply force and lessen any linear deviations. 

 I'll not give up the tailstock advance because it as great applications. In the near future, I going to buy a new mill. I believe a mill handles these issues best. Till then I'll work with what I have. Thanks!


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## robcas631 (Jan 18, 2014)

Swifty my advance wheel has no divisions.


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## robcas631 (Jan 18, 2014)

A plunger indicator seems best. I've thought of mounting the mill attachment to the compound rest but that would create more problems and lack of linear movement. 

 I'd like to thank all involved in this topic!


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## BaronJ (Jan 18, 2014)

goldstar31 said:


> Frankly, you might get away with it but, in what I can see, I'd have driven your attachment on the saddle using the leadscrew. If you truncate your triangle of forces, your pressure exerted is not in line using the tailstock. Consequently, you are putting unnecessary strains on the underneath of the saddle- and marginally lifting it.
> 
> Again, if you follow my reasoning, you are doing exactly the same with the tailstock configuration.
> 
> ...



Hi Guys,
Using Normans reasoning, the triangle of forces from either the tail stock or using the leadscrew/hand wheel would be in opposite directions.  Either will create a force that tends to lift the saddle.

In reality the only difference between a lathe and a mill is that the work bed is at 90 degrees to the chuck.  Milling on the lathe simply because of the much smaller table area would tend to amplify any play due to wear.  Having said that I would have few qualms about using my lathe as a horizontal mill particularly for making things like gears.


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## barnesrickw (Jan 18, 2014)

I mill on my taig lathe frequently. The x-travel is very limited, but it can be worked around.


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## BaronJ (Jan 19, 2014)

barnesrickw said:


> I mill on my taig lathe frequently. The x-travel is very limited, but it can be worked around.



I agree.  The lack of rigidity means smaller lighter cuts.


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## robcas631 (Jan 20, 2014)

What about this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RDGTOOLS-SM...Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5648d4809a


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## barnesrickw (Jan 21, 2014)

I make smaller cuts, but I'm not doing production work, so I don't mind.  Plus my wife is a third shifter, so I need to work quietly.  Small cuts.


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## BaronJ (Jan 21, 2014)

robcas631 said:


> What about this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RDGTOOLS-SM...Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item5648d4809a



Hi Rob,

Looking at that item, I think I would save my hard earned dosh.  You mentioned buying a mill.  That amount of money would go a long way towards one, and you would have markedly better performance.


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## robcas631 (Jan 22, 2014)

Baron

 I wouldn't even concider purchasing that item, it's way to expensive! I did check to see if it was gold plated! he he! So my money will go into a good Mill instead. I just wanted to show an alternative way to tackle the issue. 

 Fools and money are soon parted... 

 Peace,
 Rob


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 22, 2014)

Why not just mount a dial indicator next to the saddle then as you advance the saddle either with the rack and pinion or the tail stock you can see how far you have moved also a saddle lock may be in order so it will not move while you are milling. 





Gee for 580 quid You should be able to buy a small mill
Tin


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## BaronJ (Jan 23, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> Gee for 580 quid You should be able to buy a small mill
> Tin



I don't know what the £ to $ conversion is but I paid £1200 for my mill.  That included delivery and a MT3 collet set.

Just wish it had been an M2 set.


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## barnesrickw (Jan 23, 2014)

I figure about two to one. On the conversion.


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## robcas631 (Jan 26, 2014)

point barn


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## goldstar31 (Jan 26, 2014)

Apologies but might I question the price! I wonder if this is a realist price because RDG have been known to leave entries on Ebay when they are out of stock. So this might be simply  a daft price.

 If it is a genuine, then I agree with earlier comments.

 Frankly, this is where a vertical slide plus the vice/vise can be obtained on E-Bay or whatever for considerably less.  All that most 'Chinese' lathes need is  a means of fixing any old slide onto the saddle.  I once described how to fit a 918/920 with a Myford slide and vice with nothing more than a block of steel- and a few cheap bits of studding and modified nuts.

 As for the value( lots of comments here) but I went out one day for a 1/6th HP motor for a tool and cutter grinder with a £100 or $150? and came back with the motor attached to a Stent tool and cutter grinder which has a vertical slide- all calibrated and with a spindle and grinder attached-- and a whole heap of goodies. It was half an hour on a Sunday.

 Another day, I bid for a Clarkson 1. No bits but a Clarkson 1 tool and cutter grinder that-cost a street of houses - once. I paid £100 and came back with it ans=d an electronic chuck as a bonus.

 Another day, I went out with a Myford lathe bed for slideways grinding- and with £250 got it done plus the saddle re-Turcited. In the midst of things there was an extremely dirty, filthy Myford ML7 on a pallet. I ran a finger through the grime and grease, and found that it had been not only slideways ground recently but had a gear box and long saddle etc etc and the price was a mere £400- in coins of the realm. I was too old, too weary so  and not strong enough to lift it into my little car. The gear box alone was worth more than that and for a few more coins it would have lasted someone a lifetime, I mentioned it on a forum-- and no one bit at the bait.

 I think that we must get things  into perspective.- or something.


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## robcas631 (Jan 29, 2014)

I agree. I don't think it was listed corectly.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 29, 2014)

It's a bit - very cold for an old fart to be in my shed- and very damp as well. So I am having a brain storm as my hand has locked up again, anyway. So let's think a bit, eh?

 So some of us  need- or could do with a vertical slide. I might well have a mill drill but vertical slides are still really useful. So where do we find one- and importantly, free gratis and not a lot?

 Well, that thing that is officially called a top slide can be detached from its place on the saddle and rotated 90 degrees- if only a square block of metal was fasted to it- and to the saddle. 

 Knocks daft prices for something that may not be wanted really where it is. With a bit more lateral thinking, those QCTP things that everyone raves about( 'cept me) could be fitted to the saddle- with a spacer to replace the top slide.

 Comments please- on a Five pound note!

 Norman


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## Wizard69 (Jan 29, 2014)

goldstar31 said:


> It's a bit - very cold for an old fart to be in my shed- and very damp as well. So I am having a brain storm as my hand has locked up again, anyway. So let's think a bit, eh?
> 
> So some of us  need- or could do with a vertical slide. I might well have a mill drill but vertical slides are still really useful. So where do we find one- and importantly, free gratis and not a lot?


If it is damp it isn't that cold!   Around here it has been so called the snow snaps and cracks when you walk on it.   It doesn't even stick to your feet.   


> Well, that thing that is officially called a top slide can be detached from its place on the saddle and rotated 90 degrees- if only a square block of metal was fasted to it- and to the saddle.
> 
> Knocks daft prices for something that may not be wanted really where it is. With a bit more lateral thinking, those QCTP things that everyone raves about( 'cept me) could be fitted to the saddle- with a spacer to replace the top slide.


This is what I've done on my 9x20 to use an AXA style tool post.  It makes for a very stable tool post for on a machine with known wimpy compound.   I actually posted pictures someplace on this forum.   Of course this means the compound normally sits off the lathe, this could be an issue.  


> Comments please- on a Five pound note!
> 
> Norman


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## goldstar31 (Jan 30, 2014)

Wizard69 said:


> If it is damp it isn't that cold! Around here it has been so called the snow snaps and cracks when you walk on it. It doesn't even stick to your feet.


 There's an interesting story about an American called Jeffrey Hamilton.
 He had a father who was a ski jumper. It was 1992, and the place was Les Arcs 2000 and the venue was the  Winter Olympics. 
 The Kilometre Lance was a 'demonstration' event. Jeffrey won but before that one of the Swiss team ran into a piste-basher.

 My wife and I had skied around from our apartment at Arc 1800.

 So this snow thing? Agreed!


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## goldstar31 (Jan 30, 2014)

robcas631 said:


> I agree. I don't think it was listed correctly.



 I've been having a look at 'what is to offer' now. There is an unmarked Myford vertical slide- which will tilt as well, on offer for about £65 or perhaps 100 dollars.

 Now for those with a vertical slide- and a rotary table( You with me, Gus?),
 you have a radius turning attachment. Now if you cost a radius turning attachment on a proprietary bit of kit( like my Clarkson one) you need a lot of smelling scents to recover from the shock. 

 Meantime, cheers

 N


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## robcas631 (Mar 16, 2014)

goldstar31 said:


> Frankly, you might get away with it but, in what I can see, I'd have driven your attachment on the saddle using the leadscrew. If you truncate your triangle of forces, your pressure exerted is not in line using the tailstock. Consequently, you are putting unnecessary strains on the underneath of the saddle- and marginally lifting it.
> 
> Again, if you follow my reasoning, you are doing exactly the same with the tailstock configuration.
> 
> ...


 
Norman,

Advice can go much further than anticipated! I just had one of those Eureka moments.


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## CrashedAgain (Mar 19, 2014)

This thread is a bit old but I have to add my nickel's worth....

There is a series in Home Shop Machinist magazine (http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/home) on upgrading the mini lathe. 

Article 1 (Sept/Oct 2012) shows a quick and easy leadscrew dial (see photo). Article 8 details a carriage travel stop. Article 9 (Jan/Feb 2014) shows how to use the compound rest as a vertical slide and article 10 shows a number of different milling set ups. 

One important point about milling on the mini....the carriage hold down plates are badly designed and must be replaced or you will have problems with the carriage lifting (see article 10 in the series). 

All the accessories in the series can be built using only the mini lathe and a drill press.

....and although some (like the leadscrew dial) may look like a simplistic approach, I guarantee that they all work. I am the author of the series.


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