# Stuart Triple Expansion Engine



## huntandfish

I have completed a large % of my Stuart Triple and I am in the assembly stage . I see from earlier posts that there are several members who have built this engine and my question is what is the prefered method of fixing the reversing shaft levers to the shaft ? I cant see anything on the drawings . I could simply lock them on with studlock but what have others done ?


----------



## JorgensenSteam

I have seen levers pressed onto shafts, and also small allen head setscrews used.

Not sure if either is applicable here.

Pat J


----------



## huntandfish

I tried a set screw thinking it would be good to retain the option of adjustment , but there wasnt enough grip .


----------



## steamer

A small pin across the shaft....that way I could take it apart if I desired.....but I doubt you will ever need to..

Dave


----------



## rhankey

It sounds like you are on the home stretch. I have recently started on the Stuart triple expansion. Despite it being my first metal working project and a very steep learning curve, I have set very high standards. After making the 8 columns, I figured I might as well dive in deep and make the crankshaft, which I just completed yesterday. If the rest of the parts come out so well, I'll be elated.

As for fixing the reversing shift levers (part 32) to the reverse shaft (part 54), i believe Stuart specifies 4 taper pins, which are listed on the parts list directly below the reverse shaft. If you have the Model Engineer magazines, it shows drilling for the pins with a long drill bit after everything is assembled and alignment has been sorted out. IMHO, there should not need to adjust these after the fact. I have seen some poorly built engines fixing them with set screws and bolts, which doesn't look too good, and unless a dimple is machined into the shaft, I would think they would almost certainly slip. Using a press fit might also be a problem for the two shift levers that are in the middle of the long shaft.

Hope this helps, and please post photos as there is much I am learning from each one I see.


----------



## huntandfish

rhankey 
Thank you the taper pins seem the way to go . I hadnt noticed them on the parts list !
Did you fabricate the crank and braze it ?


----------



## rhankey

I made the crank from a single piece of 1.5" solid bar stock. I will attach the counter weights as seperate pieces with studs as detailed in the drawings. I haven't decided whether to peen the studs as shown in the drawings or to machine a shoulder to the studs. I'm a little scared of peening the studs and dinging or bending the crankshaft. I'll figure that out once I have made the counter weights.

I had been debating making the crankshaft from 1 3/4" bar stock so I could machine the counter weights with the rest of the crank shaft, but it looked like it would have made life a whole bunch more difficult.


----------



## huntandfish

rhankey 
Saw your crank on the other thread , it looks great I fabricated mine . It works and runs true but not as good looking as yours . I uysed the Stuart casting for the counter weights with studs as the drawings not peened over yet but i will fix them that way . I am currently in initial assembly fettling the pieces I dididnt quite finish or left a little long etc ! It is taking some time .


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello,
 I just got my Stuart triple, and a few more goodies in the mail today, great castings from 1959. and started with a file.
Alec Ryals


----------



## OrangeAlpine

Wow!  What an intimidating photo.

Bill


----------



## vcutajar

Hello Alec

As Bill said that's a really intimidating photo.  Are all those parts for just one engine?  I think I saw three crankshaft castings.

Vince


----------



## Alec Ryals

Yea that's what I said to myself you should of seen it when it was all just a box of lots of parts for several engines and a vacuum pump, Has any one done a triple as I am kind of lost on attaching the high pressure cylinder to the I.C. and the L.C and what is a good machining procedure, any thing will be of great help.
 Thank You Very Much.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here is a photo of the castings I got for the triple I'm not sure if there is anything missing and I only have one drawing out of three.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here is a photo of the Stuart compound engine i just finished.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

My triple was bought in England back in June 1960 for 13 pounds and 33  -- Wow
 Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I found out how to connect the HP to the IP,LP cylinders no angle needed like I thought, Now my next question is should I add the gasket between the cylinders so that all deminishions will fall into place with the .016 gasket material, I think I will bore the cylinder centers and mounting holes with a gasket in place rather that find out later things don't line up. Here in photo I super glued the mounting ears to 1/2 parallels then clamped to the table so all the ears will be even and that alines the casting pretty well on this one. then took little cuts on the top of the cylinders till it cleaned up as this will be my referance leaving .027 per side for my shaper to finish after I add the high pressure cylinder.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Now I'm going to bore the cylinders and face the ends -.010 on the bores and  for honing and .004 over on the length for lapping, I'm picking up center scribe lines here.
 Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I just got threw boring out the cylinders and facing the ends, now I have 61  holes to drill on just this one piece, next it will be drilling the holes that attach the HP cylinder to the LP & IP together then resurface the unit as one and face the remaining end then drill 61 holes plus another 21 holes of which about 3/4 are threaded Opp's did I loose track  Here is a import  C-wrench that would not let go I keep tossing it but it keeps coming back.
Alec


----------



## aarggh

Amazing work your doing there Alec, don't skimp on the photos please mate, I'm really enjoying this build!

cheers, Ian


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank you Ian,
 I really need a new camera were do you live.
 cheers
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well every thing came to a grinding halt today since I noticed that back in < 1960 Stuarts broke the casting spigot here rather than grinding it away, leaving little pockets about .030" deep and since I used that surface to center off of now I'm trying to fiqure out how to blend this all in so all the lines match up for the shielding, will return .
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I got brave and quit snibbling about that intake flange that is ~.030 low and went off my original  center-line anyway and went ahead and drilled the holes that hold the cylinders together, had my doubts but it worked out nice being pretty even on the depth of each countersink for the head of the screw, my mill is bottomed  out on the z axis and will barely hold a # 45 drill or a 7BA tap.
 I'll get-er-done yet .
Alec


----------



## rhankey

Alec,  Nice work so far.  I'm also slowly building a Stuart triple at the moment too which I'm showing in another thread, so I can well appreciate how much goes into the cylinder heads and especially how many holes there are to drill and tap.  It looks like you are working with older higher quality castings than I had to work with.

With the IP exhaust spigot, are you .030" off after accounting for the thickness of the lagging?  if not, you should be fine.  I machined the cylinders to be 1.750" and 1.250" wide minus twice the thickness of the lagging so that when assembled, the lagging is perfectly flush with the sides of the valve chests and with the outer edge of the LP cylinder cover.

Good luck with the build, and keep up the photos.

Robin


----------



## Alec Ryals

Robin, Thank you and Great idea about the lagging being flush with the steam chests. 
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I'm out of camera battery's at the moment, Has any one else put a gasket between the HP & IP,LP cylinders hence I tried using no gasket on another steam engine and steam will leak out, I'm going to add the .016" TO THE STACK UP BUT MACHINE IT WITH NO GASKET IN PLACE, AS FAR as I can tell no one else has added a gasket here?
Alec


----------



## rhankey

I intentionally did not make any allowance for a gasket between the HP and IP cylinder heads when I was machining the cylinder heads to ensure perfect allignment between the pair of heads.  If it turns out after assembly that I need a gasket to prevent leaks, then I will consider machining off the thickness of the gasket from the HP cylinder head.


----------



## SirJohn

This looks an e-Bay bargin?
Where do you start?


----------



## Alec Ryals

Yes it was a e-bog bargin till I found out there was no #1 engine in the package like there was supposed to be  or any drawings except one page out of three for the triple and the #1 drawing and a reverse kit for the #1.
 I like starting on the cylinders first, It took me a while to figure out how to reverse counter bore the screw heads for attachment of rhe HP to IP & LP cylinders, I first used a bur then went to a bur and used the back of it to counter bore, now the cylinders are a Unit.  there was over 1/8" per side coming off the top and bottom of the HP cylinder so I used my shaper.
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

I think the next step I to make a rigid hone hence on my compound Elsworth auto machine shop charged me 2 hr's on the sunen hone >$100.00
 YIKES  he must of been Green on the hone claiming it was  all in the set-up. and I left a little on the top & bottom for any bell mouthing.


----------



## Alec Ryals

huntandfish said:


> I tried a set screw thinking it would be good to retain the option of adjustment , but there wasnt enough grip .



 How about a dimple on the shaft under the set screw.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Does any one know what the brass plug (3/8-26) on the back side of the Intermident valve chest is for. as shown on drawing?.
Thank You
Alec


----------



## rhankey

It is an inspection hole to aid in setting the IP valve timing.


----------



## Rivergypsy

Looking good! I do love these engines


----------



## Alec Ryals

I wonder how one sets the timing threw that access hole on the IP cylinder?.
  It also seems to me with that plug removed it could be run on air for display using the HP cylinder.


----------



## rhankey

All I can imagine, is that they figure you will scribe the center line of the exhaust port on the outside next to the inspection hole, which could line up with similarly scribed allignment marks on the side of the valve.  When you fit the valve, you will notice there isn't any room to be gazing around with a flashlight through that hole.  All you will see is the side of the valve.  I need to finish making the steam pipes/flanges and paint the cylinders/sole plate then I will be ready to attempt final assembly and timing.  If allignment marks don't help, I figure I might be able to achieve more accurate valve timing with compressed air on one cylinder at a time with the cylinder covers removed so I can tell exactly when the ports open/close.  If that doesn't work, I have a couple Plan-B options I've been mulling over.

One option for running on compressed air would be to fit simpling valves onto the steam pipes.  That way it could still be run on compressed air or steam, with the added benefit of also being self starting.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank you now I see the use of the plugged hole, Great idea about running on steam or air, I have used air to tune my compound getting each cylinder running the fastest but I'm not sure that's how to tune the  LP cylinder on a compound but at the time it made sense to me and runs great on 10 LBS steam. I will try to add a video of it running well it won't work but it makes a sort of popping sound


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here are some more photos of my tooling plate for mt 7" South Bend shaper
 On the second and last photo you can see threw the tool bit, hence it is in motion a ghost image.
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

On the second and last photo one can see threw the tool bot hence it was moving a ghost image.


----------



## Alec Ryals

I'm still confused about timing on a compound engine, My twin compound launch will run on air or steam, To time it I got each cylinder to run the fastest, then hooked them up and it runs on booth, This can't be right I would think I need to time the second cylinder (LP) using steam coming from the High pressure side and go for the fastest speed this way,as from what it shouldn't run on air but it screams to more air the harder and faster it turns -within reason.
 Does anyone know about this I would be Great full.  
Alec


----------



## GWRdriver

Alec Ryals said:


> My triple was bought in England back in June 1960 for 13 pounds and 33  -- Wow


You only paid 8 pounds 3/ for the engine which in 1960s dollars is only $13!!


----------



## aarggh

GWRdriver said:


> You only paid 8 pounds 3/ for the engine which in 1960s dollars is only $13!!


 
How did you get $13 Harry? That would have been a great sum then, I know my father-in-law bought his house around then and it was under 3000 pounds. If you extrapolate it based on that and todays value, the engine would have been around 1000-1400 pounds roughly in today's rates I figure.

About a weeks pay, would that be right Alec?

cheers, Ian


----------



## Alec Ryals

At that price I should of bought one of each but it wasn't me  The receipt came with the package on eBay I wonder what the increase % is.  and the #1 engine with reverse kit was ~ 4-6 pounds.

Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello Ian.
 I not very savoy on exchange rates I have been to England back in 69 threw 87 but I live in Calif. U.S. but sounds even more costly.
 Cheers
Alec


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> I'm still confused about timing on a compound engine, My twin compound launch will run on air or steam, To time it I got each cylinder to run the fastest, then hooked them up and it runs on booth, This can't be right I would think I need to time the second cylinder (LP) using steam coming from the High pressure side and go for the fastest speed this way,as from what it shouldn't run on air but it screams to more air the harder and faster it turns -within reason.
> Does anyone know about this I would be Great full.
> Alec


 
Timing for compound and expansion engines gets quite involved.  I have a really good book from 1907 named Model Steam Engine Design by R.M. de Vignier that covers timing really well among many other topics. Google seems to have an online scanned copy of this book for free online viewing.  Im sure there are numerous other books on the subject.

Without having all the dimensions for your valve ports, valve, eccentric throw and angle, Im guessing it isnt going to be easy for someone to determine why your twin compound works equally well on steam and air.  In theory, a compound really needs steam to run properly.  Without modifications from Stuarts plans, a compound should only run on the HP cylinder when powered by air.

Without modifications from the plans, the Stuart triple isnt going to run very well on air if at all, as the friction of two non-contributing cylinders is likely to be a significant drag for the one cylinder to deal with.  Since the triple can run in forward and reverse and the forward & reverse eccentrics are machined from a single piece, there isnt much timing adjustment to do.  Each pair of eccentrics have to be centred to the crank throw, as rotating the eccentric one way to benefit one direction will throw off the timing of the other direction.  In fact, I used keyways to fix the eccentrics to the crankshaft on my in progress triple rather than using the specified grub screws.  All that leaves is adjusting the valve up/down so it is perfectly centred to the valve ports.  If you wanted greater timing adjustment, I think you would need to start by making the forward and reverse eccentrics as separate pieces so they can be adjusted independently of one another.

Robin


----------



## Alec Ryals

Robin,
 Thank you for the information I will look up that book.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

I was reading a sentence in a right up were this little fellow visited him, well he visited me.
 After being so ever careful to offset the HP cylinder -016 to compensate I went the wrong way hence I only caught it way to late and now have to settle with a .781 bore "I always thought the HP was a bit small .
 Now I'm making rings hence the kit came with none, I'm using the Tremble method and my only problem is cracking the ring to get a nice even crack but the first one was clean enough so that filing a .0015/.002 gap made it clean up nicely. On my drawing Stuart shows 3 rings on the HP & IP pressure cylinders and one wide one on the LP cylinder V's my Twin compound Witch call for two and Twin launch calls for one 1/8" wide rings on the 1." bore seems  bit much I wounder how many times the triple has had this changed. 
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here are some more photos of machining the steam chests


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I started on the cylinder bottoms finishing the gland side all in the same set up (In the 4 jaw chuck) The drill wandered so I had to single point to bore to true up, then transfer the 4 jaw to the mill to finish up the detail.
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well all my drills wondered when drilling the bottom cylinder covers hence I had to single point bore them to get a true straight hole them reamed them to 7/32 there must be little hard spots that make the drill wonder, here are some more photos of the other cylinder bottom covers.
Alec


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Well all my drills wondered when drilling the bottom cylinder covers hence I had to single point bore them to get a true straight hole them reamed them to 7/32 there must be little hard spots that make the drill wonder, here are some more photos of the other cylinder bottom covers.
> Alec


 
Looking good.

The cylinder covers on mine were terrible for hard spots around the outer diameter, and far worse on the guide mounting flanges.  I had to hand file through the hard spots so I didn't destroy a bunch of cutters.

Robin


----------



## Alec Ryals

Some were I saw machining the center eccentric for the Stuart triple or maybe it was just photos as I can't remember, does any one have any photos of this or a procedure for machining this.
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I'm onto the base, I can't de-side if I should leave the casting bases for holding down the engine and make shims for the back or machine the whole bottom, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I lapped the top side till flat hence it was very flat anyway (Good Casting) then super glue to the table and take light cuts till the bottom cleans up that way there is no pressure warping the casting and a sharp blow with a mallet will break the bond and acatone will and a sharp razor will remove the super glue.
 Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## rhankey

My sole plate did not include the front pair of "feet" that yours has.  As such it was an easy decision for me to machine the pump bases flat with that of the rest of the front and back edges of the sole plate.  I know it is a little early to be thinking of a base to sit the engine on at this stage, but perhaps that may also influence your decision.  I am quite happy with how mine looks sitting on the wooden base I made for mine a few weeks ago.  I'm in the midst of final assembly, and have yet to make the pumps.


----------



## Alec Ryals

I just measured the cylinder mounting hole locations and they are all less than they are supposed to be ? So I set my planer gage to 3.0" and sure enough its minus ~.015 in three inches and about .004/005" per inch my mill lead screw is off, Now its time for D.R.O. my lead screw only has ~.010: backlash -(Go Figure) all I need to do is machine the sole to fit, Oh-Well.
ALEC


----------



## steamedlou

Help, help, help.  this may be the perfect thread to ask about the triple timing.  I have an ebay engine and I'm not sure its ever been run on steam even though its 10 years old.  Things don't look right.  I see the comment above about the eccentrics being symmetrical and that makes sensel. Should make for very minimal adjustment.  Stuart's timing instructions say to start with cover off LP valve chest and with crank at TDC, high points of IP eccentric should be 90+15 degrees and HP should be 90+30.  Now i'm assuming we are talking about the LP crank at TDC. Is this right?  So if I understand the meaning of this, the high points of the IP and HP eccentrics should both be "hanging" below a horizontal centerline 15 and 30 degrees and symmetrical about a vertical center line.  If this is so then  mine are not adjusted correctly.  Now fine for IP and HP.  So when LP is at TDC, where should the LP concentric be?  I'm kinda assuming above horizontal centerline about to open the valve.  So please, someone tell me if I'm thinking right.  I really don't want to undo every thing if I'm not understanding the instructions.  This should not be rocket science but nowhere can I find instructions on where the eccentrics are to be placed.  I have the Stuart drawings but they don't go into it at all.
Some one save me from my ignorance!


----------



## kilocharlie

Alec - If heat transfer is critical, you would be wise to machine the entire base for maximum contact with mated parts instead of shimming. Just a suggestion, good luck!

BTW, for everyone's benefit, what is the purpose, type, and cycle of these engines? I'm guessing steam power? Are they unique to Australia?


----------



## Charles Lamont

steamedlou said:


> Help, help, help.  this may be the perfect thread to ask about the triple timing.  Things don't look right.



As the pair of eccentrics for each cylinder are machined in one piece, you cannot alter the advance (the angle in excess of 90deg each side) . If the angles between the throws are (far) wrong they would need to be replaced. The only thing you can do to set them is to ensure that they are positioned symmetrically either side of (away from) the relevant crank. I am not sure why the instructions seem to refer to setting the eccentrics for one cylinder in relation to the dead centre of another, though if the eccentrics have 30 degrees of advance the throws will line up with the other two crank pins. It may be easier simply to consider each cylinder independently.

You say the the advance is different for different cylinders. You may need to check that the eccentrics have been installed in the right place.

Note that the eccentric rods are most likely to be arranged 'open'. This means that at bottom dead centre the eccentric rods are apart, while at top dead they will be 'crossed'. 

Having done that, you need to set the valves. Not having seen the instructions, I suggest you could either set them for equal opening or for equal lead (that is to say equalising the amount of opening at top and bottom dead centres).


----------



## rhankey

Steamedlou, As Charles indicates, assuming the engine has been made and assembled precisely to plans, there is very little to do for timing the Stuart triples since each pair of eccentrics is machined as a single piece.  All you can do is rotate the eccentric pair so it is centred to that of crank throw it belongs with.  Then set the engine in forward or reverse and adjust the valve rod so that the slide valve has equal travel over the inlet ports.

Given there really isn't any opportunity to adjust the eccentrics, I deviated from the plans and keyed my eccentrics to the crank shaft, rather than used set screws.


Having recently setup the timing on a Stuart triple I'm very close to completing and having seen what a number of builders have done, here are some other things to watch out for when timing or setting up a Stuart triple:

The LP and IP require *each* eccentric to be machined with a 5/32" throw and 15deg from a horizontal plane.  the HP is the same, but is 30deg rather than 15deg.  So, make sure the eccentrics are in the correct locations and machined correctly.
Alignment of the reversing linkages.  I have seen way too many of these engines where the reversing linkages aren't exactly aligned with one another such that one cylinder is in full forward, while another might be at 3/4 forward, and even worse another might be in reverse!  This is tricky to set up, as you more or less have to do so after full assembly while dealing with real estate challenges.  I've seen way too many using set screws to attempt to lock the reverse shaft levers to the reversing shaft, which can't possibly give a sturdy enough attachment.
You want to be sure there is no slop in any of the reverse gear linkages, as with such a small engine, any slop will result in a fairly big problem.
The valve rod adjustment is somewhat crude, as you are dealing with increments of +/- half a turn of a 4BA thread.
Setting the IP valve rod is tricky, as you can't actually see what's going on.  I set my IP valve rod by taking measurements from that of the HP & LP valve rods.
Given you aren't sure on the timing or history of this engine, I would also check the inlet and exhaust ports have been machined to the correct sizes and spacings, and likewise the slide valves are also correctly machined.
Robin


----------



## steamedlou

damn it i just wrote a length reply and is didnt go through. said i wasnt registered and i would store it until i am. lol i am registered and have no idea where is would be stored. test test


----------



## steamedlou

I'll try it again.  Thanks Charles and Rhankey for your help. i have some adjusting to do.  the "crossed and uncrossed" eccentric rods seem OK but in no way are the eccentrics symmetrical about the crank.  I did get it to run on steam in one direction and with the LP drain valves open.  We will see if some adjusting does better.  I see comments above about the use of gaskets.  Use them!! mine was assembled with some gasket compound only which didn't hold steam.  I have been using cotton writing parchment coated with a copper bearing anti seize compound on other Stuart engines. That didn't work either.  I will use gaskets and compound.  I think you are in error on the 30/15 eccentric advancement.  The HP is 90+30 while the LP and IP are both 90+15.  Wish my reverse operating rod was not pinned.  It is and all i can do to make some adjustments is to shim the operating screw out at the hand wheel. to center the operation.  I also found the tip of the LP valve rod broken so it does not make it all the way up into the steam chest guide.  I'll leave that because i don't have a way to make a new one.  Thanks again ill be following the build and give you updates on my "adjustments"


----------



## rhankey

steamedlou said:


> I think you are in error on the 30/15 eccentric advancement.  The HP is 90+30 while the LP and IP are both 90+15.


 
Good catch.  Right you are, and I have edited my response so it doesn't mislead anyone else.  Good luck with your ongoing adjustments.


----------



## steamedlou

Well that's just frustrating as hell!!!  Adjusted all the valves at least HP and LP, and adjusted all the eccentrics per the previous posts.  Even found the IP eccentric 180 degrees out.  Was very excited about hitting it with steam.  End result this morning?  NOTHING OR WORSE!  Went from running on two cylinders in on direction to not running at all.  not even one revolution on its own.  Something is wrong here.  With non  adjustable symmetrical eccentrics this should be a total no brainer.  Think I better put it aside for a few days.  Throwing it across the room would do terrible damage to my hardwood floors.


----------



## steamedlou

The post I put on a few minutes ago was premature.  It runs!  I had neglected to notice that when I rotated the IP concentric 180 degrees, it reversed the valve operating.  Went back and switch them on the reverse link. and now the engine runs in forward and reverse at 25 psig.  a little halting ever so often, but does run. lol then it stopped. and I haven't got it again.  maybe some water logging or something maybe in the LP area.  but anyway it does run now.


----------



## Alec Ryals

steamedlou said:


> The post I put on a few minutes ago was premature.  It runs!  I had neglected to notice that when I rotated the IP concentric 180 degrees, it reversed the valve operating.  Went back and switch them on the reverse link. and now the engine runs in forward and reverse at 25 psig.  a little halting ever so often, but does run. lol then it stopped. and I haven't got it again.  maybe some water logging or something maybe in the LP area.  but anyway it does run now.



  Good Job, it will be awhile before I'm at your point. 
Alec


----------



## kilocharlie

Just a line from an engine machinist...1) Know "firing" sequence 2) locate TDC for #1 piston - on the "firing" revolution, NOT valve rock-over, if applicable 3) set the timing for cams, valves, spark / injection device, etc. - the complete system - to "fire" position, 4) "dry" turn the engine by hand with any spark devices grounded to check for valve clearance - now is a good time to use the playdough ball method to check valve clearance 5) remove playdough and run through final check for first start-up through run-in 6) it is often advisable to run in the engine under a good, healthy load right off the beginning if seating piston rings is significant to the application. This is often more significant than cam break-in, which occurs simultaneously if done correctly.

A continuity tester can be used to exactly set contact breaker points, distributors, other electrical devices - likewise a vacuum / pressure tester can be used to set valve opening to the last half-degree or better, depending on valve seal.

Good Luck!


----------



## Alec Ryals

kilocharlie said:


> Just a line from an engine machinist...1) Know "firing" sequence 2) locate TDC for #1 piston - on the "firing" revolution, NOT valve rock-over, if applicable 3) set the timing for cams, valves, spark / injection device, etc. - the complete system - to "fire" position, 4) "dry" turn the engine by hand with any spark devices grounded to check for valve clearance - now is a good time to use the playdough ball method to check valve clearance 5) remove playdough and run through final check for first start-up through run-in 6) it is often advisable to run in the engine under a good, healthy load right off the beginning if seating piston rings is significant to the application. This is often more significant than cam break-in, which occurs simultaneously if done correctly.
> 
> A continuity tester can be used to exactly set contact breaker points, distributors, other electrical devices - likewise a vacuum / pressure tester can be used to set valve opening to the last half-degree or better, depending on valve seal.
> 
> Good Luck!



  But This is a diffrent animal.


----------



## kilocharlie

I'm sure it is - I'd never heard of it before I read this thread, and still have no idea if it is a steam engine, a heat engine, and I.C.E., or what? I was just hoping the thought sequence might help...triple expansion timing sounds like a challenge, but every engine I've ever timed had a very mechanical reason it was timed the way it was...no magic


----------



## steamedlou

lol no magic, just different planet I think sometime.  Speaking of different planet.  I just did a buy it now on a Coomber rotary steam engine on ebay.  now thats different.  not sure one has ever been on there for sale before.


----------



## kilocharlie

Off-topic, perhaps, but I developed an 8-stroke cycle engine that was denied a California Dept. of Energy grant on grounds that they were no longer funding internal combustion engine research. The timing challenge was valve timing, which I solved by using very long-stemmed valves to keep the heat at one end, and let the crank trigger time it with solenoids instead of a camshaft.
   I do usually consider (modern) Atkinson-cycle engine (used with electric / fossil fuel hybrids) valve timing and stroke volume % when designing an engine. Efficiency has become as important as power production lately, and I am considering a design that adjusts from Atkinson-cycle to Otto-cycle when more power is needed, and back as fuel efficiency becomes the priority, this aimed at power-glider aircraft use. 
   My current effort at a Stirling-cycle engine has variable compression and other will possibly be classified as a Delta-type Stirling, as it is somewhat different from the other three types.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello All,
Well I'm now making pistons and the piston rods the drawing shows the smaller space in the pistons at the top but the rod does not fit right unless turned around besides there is no room for the nut on the smaller side.
Has anyone ever run across this.
Thank You Very Much\
Alec Ryals


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Hello All,
> Well I'm now making pistons and the piston rods the drawing shows the smaller space in the pistons at the top but the rod does not fit right unless turned around besides there is no room for the nut on the smaller side.
> Has anyone ever run across this.
> Thank You Very Much\
> Alec Ryals



 Alec, I assume when you say "does not fit right", that something is hitting something else.  If so, exactly what is hitting what?

 I am guessing when you say things are not fitting right, that the outer rim of the piston is hitting the cylinder covers unless you turn the cylinder over.  If so, I would guess the 8 vertical columns, the piston rods, or the connecting rods might not be of the correct length, or the crankshaft is sitting too low or high relative to the bottom of the columns.  There are a number of key measurements that come together to determine where the pistons will sit.  At this point, if the pistons fit better being fitted upside down, that might be the simplest solution, otherwise you might find you have to remake or adjust other parts.

 If I remember correctly, I was able to make the pistons and rods exactly to plan and when assembled the piston was perfectly centered within the cylinders - no interference with top or bottom cylinder covers.  The inset depths on the top and bottom of each piston where the piston rod attaches is clearly specified in the plans, and I know I did not need to mess with that at all.  The diameters and the secondary depths of the profiling for the tops and bottoms of the pistons was not specified, but it mates with similar profiling in the top and bottom cylinder covers.  I seem to recall making a very tiny deviation from plan for the bottom HP cylinder cover, as I didn't like how little metal they specified to leave where the rod passes through.

 The only errors I found on the current triple plans, was that they specified and supplied shorter bolts for the drag links than were actually needed.  I think that was because at some point they change a dimension in the drag links, but forgot to update the length of the bolt accordingly.  Other than that, so long as you stick exactly to the plans for all key dimensions, everything fit perfectly.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thanks, but I have not machined yet but my question is the top of the threaded piston rod is .375 and the pistons are showing .250 thickness hence if asambled like the print the threaded portion of the piston sticks above the piston - here are the drawings of the error that I don't know which is correct.
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here are two photos of were the error is.
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## barnesrickw

It would stick above by 1/8th" is there a nut that keeps it in place?  I think most steam engines have room at the top of their stroke.  Will this 1/8" cause it to strike the head?  


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


----------



## barnesrickw

My math was wrong.  Connecting rod sticks above cylinder head by 1/16". 


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


----------



## rhankey

Yes the piston rod does extend 1/16" above the top of the piston.  That is ok, as it fits within a recess that you machine into the upper cylinder cover, which is best depicted in the cross sectional diagram.  The recess in the cylinder cover needs to be of sufficient diameter for that of the piston rod lock nut.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Why does the drawing not show this? the piston rod sticking out the top of the piston 1/16" are the deminshions correct !
Alec


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Why does the drawing not show this? the piston rod sticking out the top of the piston 1/16" are the deminshions correct !
> Alec



The drawings do show the piston rod extending 1/16" above the top of the pistons...  And from a math perspective, the piston rod has a 3/8" threaded section.  The threaded section of the piston is 1/4", the top of which is 1/16" below the top of the piston.  So when you do the math (3/8" - 1/4" - 1/16" = 1/16"), the piston rod extends 1/16" above the top of the piston.


----------



## barnesrickw

rhankey said:


> The drawings do show the piston rod extending 1/16" above the top of the pistons...  And from a math perspective, the piston rod has a 3/8" threaded section.  The threaded section of the piston is 1/4", the top of which is 1/16" below the top of the piston.  So when you do the math (3/8" - 1/4" - 1/16" = 1/16"), the piston rod extends 1/16" above the top of the piston.




That's how I did it.  They can't dimension to the rod on that view, but they could have given an inside assembly section view or note to show this.  


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


----------



## barnesrickw

Wait, just looked at the picture, and they did just that.  


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


----------



## Alec Ryals

Looks like in drawing the nut and extending stud rod was machined flush with the top of the piston sure not very clear.
Alec


----------



## SirJohn

From the drawing it looks like there should be a lock nut on top of the piston.


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Looks like in drawing the nut and extending stud rod was machined flush with the top of the piston sure not very clear.
> Alec



That is not so.  Here is a enlargement of the drawing.  the top of the rod/nut protrudes 1/16" above the top of the piston.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Not sure if this were im wat to post this but why use rings on a engine that will only see air hence it makes a 90% INCREASE  in dag!
Alec Ryals


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Not sure if this were im wat to post this but why use rings on a engine that will only see air hence it makes a 90% INCREASE in dag!
> Alec Ryals



A triple expansion engine won't run well on air unless you have a lot of blow by, plumb the air directly to each of the three cylinders, utilize some sort of simpling valve to direct air to all three cylinders, or otherwise.  An expansion engine is predicated on steam being able to work multiple times, whereas compressed air only works once.  Normally with compressed air, the HP cylinder will do all the work while the IP and LP cylinders do nothing.

 That said, piston rings on three cylinders of an engine this size does add a lot of drag.  Before I installed the piston rings, my triple turned over with very little effort on the flywheel.  With all the piston rings installed, it is quite tight.


----------



## Charles Lamont

rhankey said:


> Normally with compressed air, the HP cylinder will do all the work while the IP and LP cylinders do nothing.



The low pressure piston has more than 5 times the area of the high pressure one, so rather than compressed air, it might well be better to run it off a vacuum pump!


----------



## rhankey

Charles Lamont said:


> The low pressure piston has more than 5 times the area of the high pressure one, so rather than compressed air, it might well be better to run it off a vacuum pump!



I'm not sure how well the valve timing would work if drawing a vacuum from the exhaust port.

 Be it a vacuum pump to the exhaust or compressed air to the inlet of the LP cylinder, you would need to keep the pressures low, as it would be pretty easy to bend a rod or crank.  The LP cylinder is intended to receive less then 1/5 the pressure of the HP cylinder.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Im using 2-56 setscrews to get in place then a pin to hold in place.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Does any one know the size of screw to use to hold the shroud in place hence 7BA seems a bit large , Any ideas would be of great help.\
Thank You all and have a Safe and Great Holiday
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

That said, piston rings on three cylinders of an engine this size does add a lot of drag.  Before I installed the piston rings, my triple turned over with very little effort on the flywheel.  With all the piston rings installed, it is quite tight.[/QUOTE]



    Why use piston rings if to use air ?
Alec Ryals


----------



## rhankey

Alec,
 Stuart specifies 18 Brass Round Head screws that are 7BA x 3/16" long to secure the lagging (or what you refer to as the shroud).  That size seemed perfectly to scale on my engine.

 An expansion engine like the Stuart triple is not designed to run on air.  Unless you have reworked the supply lines or added sampling valves, or have a lot of piston blow by, running a triple expansion on air will result in the engine running on only one cylinder.  Compressed air only works once, so once it is expelled from the HP cylinder, it will provide no further work in the IP or LP cylinders.  Steam on the other hand will expand again after it has come out of the HP cylinder - just not quite so much as the first time, hence why the IP and LP have correspondingly larger displacement.


----------



## Alec Ryals

I see some folks put valves on top of the cylinder heads besides the ones on the side are these for oil ?
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Has anyone here on this Forum ever run a triple on steam?
Thanks\
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello All,
 Well I have a lot more pictures to post here when I get some free time but was wondering if any one would know if the 30* degree ectrinic is for the L.P. cylinder?
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Hello All,
> Well I have a lot more pictures to post here when I get some free time but was wondering if any one would know if the 30* degree ectrinic is for the L.P. cylinder?
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals




L.P and I.P 15 degree and H.P. 30 degree. It is due timing of steam engine calculated for steampressure, expansion, exhaust and compression to make steam engine economical and less water consumption from boiler. Most difficult for new beginners with I.P. excenter sheave. See photo.


----------



## Mechanicboy

And still more photo..


----------



## Mechanicboy

And still more.. And there is not picture: Tap the treads 7BA in the excenter sheave *before* the half of excenter is cutted of the tap of the excenter sheave who is fastened into the collet.


----------



## Mechanicboy

You need the spesial tool to turn the excenter sheave. The holding pin is made of drill rod to prevent stretching and bending under work. The degree disc has a flat side: Set the mark aligned with other mark and set the excenter sheave and degree disc in vertical. How do: Use machinist square standing on cross slide and set both on excenter sheave and degree disc with the mark aligned with other mark on the tool then fasten the excenter firmly with nut. After the first sheave is ready, then mark up the disc and excenter sheave, loosen the nut and turn to next the mark with the disc and excenter sheave is in right position (do not turn the excenter and degree disc from each other!) then turn the second sheave.


----------



## charlesfitton

I have one of these kits in a box in the basement - Anyone want to build it for me?

f


----------



## Alec Ryals

charlesfitton said:


> I have one of these kits in a box in the basement - Anyone want to build it for me?
> 
> f


                           How much are you willing to pay 
Alec Ryals


    And Thank you for the Great photo's and info.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> How much are you willing to pay
> Alec Ryals



Dear Charlesfitton and other folk who need help to build ..

The risk you can get:

Bad work with the parts of steam engine caused unskilled man who need money.

You are working with your own steam engine and save money and preventing a lot of problems caused by unhonest/unskilled model engineer who need money. 

Also You are developing working techniques and developing the knowledge to produce parts with machine tools. You are planning how to create parts good time before you start machining the parts of cast iron/bronce and other parts of solid material to finished product. It is not enough just machine tools, you must also create special tools to keep parts that can not be set up on a machine tool. After you has done with the triple steam engine: You are a skilled model engineer.

It took me almost a year and six months to do the triple steam engine almost done. Remaining parts for drag links, vacuum pump / water pump and steam pipes. This is the cause of planning of work for each parts and creating special tools before I could work for each part. It's not as easy to build as fast as a simple oscillating steam engine. 

Hope you understand why it costs much time and money for an honest model engineer to help you build a triple steam engine.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Im going to ask 10K for mine  almost done!  a lot of work ! and a lot of time!
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

How to make exact measure of the flange in mass production, see picture.

The centering plug to keep the flange centered before drilling the fastening hole on cylinder block/steamchest.

The last picture of the flange is the special tool where you can connect the air pressure to the cylinder and adjust the timing and test running in I.P cylinder and L.P cylinder. The H.P. cylinder has treaded hole to connect to boiler, use treaded connection to air pressure and adjusting timing and running test.

To running test for each cylinder: Remove the two connecting rod to other cylinder who is not in use (due less load caused by friction), the cylinder who is under test/adjusting timing must have connecting rod to run the steam engine. Also you are adjusting/running the triple steam engine as if it were "one cylinder steam engine".

After each cylinder has correct timing and running test for each cylinder is done, mount all connecting rod and the two manifolds on place and the triple steam engine is ready to run.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello Jens,
 I Love your work , did you use gun blue the on the castings Looks Great! Thank you So Much for the timing method this is what I used on my Compound engine and it worked great!  On Steam I assembling my unit after 3 years of of and on machining etc.
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here are a few photos of how i made my valves with a forming tool.
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here is how I did some parts of the reverse linkage in a four jaw.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well im almost done with assembly but noticed there is not enough travel in the double lead reversing shaft, so I will make one with more thread, has anyone else incountered this ?
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here are some more photos of my machining setups
Alec


----------



## Mechanicboy

Hi, i had it very difficult to bend the pipe in correct size and radius after the method from ModelEngines. Info. The main problem is bend radius who is "sharp" corner and the results is flattened bend caused by too little radius. Tried both with/without sand inside + hot from blowlamp to prevent buckling the bend in sharp corner. Then i increased the bend radius (1/4" -> 7/16" for 1/4" pipe and 5/16" -> 9/16" for 5/16" pipe) and got a bend without buckling with own made special tool for bending the pipe + sand inside and hot from blowlamp. The special tool has right length between the flanges who is fastened direct on steam engine. Do not rely on drawing in length between flanges depending on various of length between the hole for flanges for each steam engine created by difference model engine builder. Measure first between the flanges before make a special tool for steam pipe with right distance.


----------



## rhankey

Alec Ryals said:


> Well im almost done with assembly but noticed there is not enough travel in the double lead reversing shaft, so I will make one with more thread, has anyone else incountered this ?
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals


 
Mine worked out to have about one revolution more travel than really needed.  If you don't want to make another 2-start reversing shaft, the other option might be to make the reversing lever (part 33) slightly shorter.


----------



## rhankey

Mechanicboy said:


> Hi, i had it very difficult to bend the pipe in correct size and radius after the method from ModelEngines. Info. The main problem is bend radius who is "sharp" corner and the results is flattened bend caused by too little radius. Tried both with/without sand inside + hot from blowlamp to prevent buckling the bend in sharp corner. Then i increased the bend radius (1/4" -> 7/16" for 1/4" pipe and 5/16" -> 9/16" for 5/16" pipe) and got a bend without buckling with own made special tool for bending the pipe + sand inside and hot from blowlamp. The special tool has right length between the flanges who is fastened direct on steam engine. Do not rely on drawing in length between flanges depending on various of length between the hole for flanges for each steam engine created by difference model engine builder. Measure first between the flanges before make a special tool for steam pipe with right distance.


 
Nice collection of pretzels you have there. ;-)

I remember fretting over how to make those two tubes for some time, as I was determined to nail the radius bends given in the plans so the pipes would remain close to the cylinder heads.

I was able to achieve the 1/4" and 5/16" radius bends with only one unsatisfactory bend attempt by drawing the annealed tubes over a wheel of the appropriate diameter (1/2" and 5/8" respectively) into which I'd machined a semi-circle groove to tightly fit the tubing.  I used another wheel with a matching semi-circle groove to draw the tubing around the inner wheel.  In total, I needed 2 pairs of wheels to handle the two different tube diameters/bend radiuses.  The resulting cross sections of the bent tubes were just slightly oval from the very tight radius bends (not really visibly noticeable), but not kinked.  I tried frozen soap water in the tubes, but with such small diameter tubes, the ice thawed in a minute or two.  Sand is probably a much better bet.  There is no way in heck I'd want to attempt tighter bends than shown in the plans, as I felt like I was pushing the ragged edge of what was achievable.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank You Very Much
Alec Ryals
Palo Alto, Califorina


----------



## Mechanicboy

Finally steam pipes finished after silver brazing and polishing was performed.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello All,
 Does any one know ere I can get a 9/0 tapered reamer for the reversing mechanisms that come with the kit,
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Hello All,
> Does any one know ere I can get a 9/0 tapered reamer for the reversing mechanisms that come with the kit,
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals



I am not sure, you mentioned the tapered pins to lock the reversing link arms parts number 33 and 32 to the reversing link shaft part number 54?

Take contact with the seller: [email protected] Here is the catalog where the 9/0 taper reamer is listed: http://www.gammons-catalog.com/store/pc/PDF/helicaltaperpinreamer_a1.pdf

In case the small tapered reamer is not available, then it is not difficult to make the small tapered reamer, see the picture. The material is silversteel/drill rod.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Beautiful job on those crossover pipes did you use the aluminum piece as a mandrel or a template on my compound engine I built it was a tough one  getting it right but had no template .
Thank you
Alec Ryals


----------



## rhankey

Here is a photo of the pieces of the tube forming jig I made to bend the two steam tubes for the triple.   For each tube, I had to make a bending form with correct bending radius, a clamping block, and a roller.  The three parts are grooved for the diameter of the tube being bent.  As I mentioned previously, this jig allowed me to get the very tight radius bends shown in the Stuart drawings without any kinking.  I did anneal the tubes first.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I've been able to get each cylinder to run Okay in one direction but won't run in reverse, there must be a fine line here ?
Any Help would be Greatly depreciated 
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Beautiful job on those crossover pipes did you use the aluminum piece as a mandrel or a template on my compound engine I built it was a tough one  getting it right but had no template .
> Thank you
> Alec Ryals



Thanks  I used the aluminium template to form the required radius and correct length between the flanges.


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Well I've been able to get each cylinder to run Okay in one direction but won't run in reverse, there must be a fine line here ?
> Any Help would be Greatly depreciated
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals



Check the excenter sheaves is in center to crankpin.

Check the length between big end and small end of excenter connecting rod
is same for all 6 excenter connecting rod. Use the plate with centerpin for little end and the sheave for big end (fixed length between centerpin and sheave) and check the length is exact for all 6 con. rods. Check the drag link is in correct measure, let us say the drag link bow and fastening hole is in correct in distance measured in radius between the bow and fastening hole. Fault adjusted valve can give bad reversing but not stopped in this direction. Stopped direction means it is some fault in total length between excenter big end and valve rod.

The other alternative: With draglink and the two excenter rod ---> The centerpin in the drag link bow and both con. rod big end in same bolt fixed on the template. Then move in both directions and check there is not variation of length. Variation of length ---> fault length of con. rod or distance between drag link bow and bolt hole.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank You  Jens,
Have you run your unit on steam, I cant seen to find anyone that has ? I plan to.  Thank You for the great information!
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec, still not ready to run the triple steam engine due i was not ready with the rest of parts of reversing links. I am still building the steam engine..


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well ive been timing the engine Okay now both directions was just hard to do with other cylinders connected  and the pumps !  But it takes 60-90 psi to get the engine to start turning that seems kind of high! all the rings,glands etc cause quite a drag. Also was wondering why some folks put valves atop the cylinder heads or are those oil cups and why ?
Any Thoughts
Thank You 
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Beautiful work at your triple steam engine.. 

Take running-in to adapt the parts togheter to a perfect fit who is impossible to make with machinetools. Same i has drag in the steam engine. It is common in the new unused steam engine. Do not save oil under running-in until all parts is adapted to perfect fit.  Do not tighten too hard on packing boxes on glands, tight little until it does not leak steam out of the packing box.

"Also was wondering why some folks put valves atop the cylinder heads or are those oil cups and why ?"

It is up to folks to make the steam engine more realistic to prelubricate the steam engine before use. 
Use displacment lubricator or mechanical lubricator if you want. 

Storing away the Stuart steam engine after use: Run the steam engine with air and lubricate with conserving oil that you can buy in maritime dealers. To prevent rust develops inside the steam engine, lubricate well with conserving oil.


----------



## Alec Ryals

I'm wondering why Stuart gives such thick wall tubing for these I guess it must be to retain heat ? I hear these engines need large areas for crossover to make all things work correctly ? Also woundering if I should put some heat insulation under the cylinder shrouds ?  I forget the proper name for these covers.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> I'm wondering why Stuart gives such thick wall tubing for these I guess it must be to retain heat ? I hear these engines need large areas for crossover to make all things work correctly ? Also woundering if I should put some heat insulation under the cylinder shrouds ?  I forget the proper name for these covers.
> Alec Ryals



Yes, to preventing the steam is consensating in the cold crossover and expansion of steam will be reduced. Wrap around with thick string and paint around with matt white paint on crossover pipe for better insulation. The area of crossover pipe will allow the steam pass to next cylinder with less resistance.


----------



## Charles Lamont

Alec Ryals said:


> I'm wondering why Stuart gives such thick wall tubing for these I guess it must be to retain heat ? I hear these engines need large areas for crossover to make all things work correctly ? Also woundering if I should put some heat insulation under the cylinder shrouds ?  I forget the proper name for these covers.
> Alec Ryals


It may be to make it easier to bend without crushing. The wall thickness makes virtually no difference to the U value, which, if there is no insulation, depends almost entirely on the fluid boundary layers at the internal and external surfaces.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I was able to bend crossover pipes to Stuarts specks by filling the tubes with lead then bend with a tubing bender I made,
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec, how much are the bend radius in your steam pipe? Nice work at the pipe.


----------



## Mechanicboy

I maked the square treads for reversing link shaft. The pitch is 10/1". The hand crank fastened to the pulley for treading the treads without power from lathe motor. Also a sensitive work without distorting the treads on the work piece.


----------



## Mechanicboy

The reversing link is completed. All works well without trouble. The steam pipes is bolted on place.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Nice work on the threads they look harder than the double pitch ones! I had to remake the threaded rod as I didnt have enough travel for reversing even though it was made to specks.


----------



## Mechanicboy

I selected the square threads to make more realistic steam engine.  

To make square treads is not difficult..

Rule #1: Make the threaded hole first and next job will be easier to trim the threads with needle file on the threaded bolt.
The top slide on lathe is not in use, carriage only to form square treads.
keep all tools sharp, use pocket diamond grinder in both coarse and fine grade to smooth out cutting surface (both rake and end clearance).
Allways handcranking the spindle when you are working with the small threads to prevent the work is spoiled!

Part #34

1. Drill hole 3,5 mm root diameter
2. Make the threading tool of old drill grinded (i used the old HSCO drill, you can use high speed lathe tool too) to right size 10/1" pitch = 2,54 mm pitch : 2 = 1,27 mm wide and 1,5 mm deep tool and the tool must have place to go into the 3,5 mm hole.
3. Thread up the treads in the hole 0,04 mm each time until the right size in main diameter is 5 mm. 
4. The last work: Thread up the threads without change the measure on handwheel on carriage until all swarfs is disappeared due the tool is a bit flexing under work.

Part #55

1. The main diameter 3/16" and root diameter 1/8" showed as in drawning.
2. The threading tool has a wide at 1,29-1,3 mm (1,27 wide is not necessary on the bolt due we need the clearance in threads without jamming)
3. Thread up the treads on the bolt 0,04 mm each time until the tool is touching on root diameter 
4. Tread up the work without change the measure on handwheel on carriage until all swarfs is disappeared due flexing bolt.
5. In case the part #34 can not go into the threaded shaft due the threads on the bolt is too wide (if the wide of tool was smaller than 1,27) : Use thinn needle file to trim the wide of the threads and take a test to fit the part  #34. You can polish the sides in the threads to make smooth moving the reverse link.

I has Sieg lathe who has 0,04 mm for each mark on the handwheel on carriage. Your lathe can have other size for each mark, find out how much marks you need for each threading.


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> I had to remake the threaded rod as I didnt have enough travel for reversing even though it was made to specks.



My treaded bolt is a bit longer since i can not be sure the lever is in right length due the swing radius can be longer who need longer threaded bolt to make complete travel between forward and reverse.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thanks for the information It sure looks more impressive.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

charlesfitton said:


> I have one of these kits in a box in the basement - Anyone want to build it for me?
> 
> f


                    Would you consider selling it?
                   Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

All valves and excenters are adjusted for each cylinders and testet with air for each cylinders. Now the steam engine is running on air pressure. Funny to see the triple steam engine as a freeze machine due the air do not have the properties as steam: Expansion.  

Next work: Vacuum pump, waterpump.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> All valves and excenters are adjusted for each cylinders and testet with air for each cylinders. Now the steam engine is running on air pressure. Funny to see the triple steam engine as a freeze machine due the air do not have the properties as steam: Expansion.
> 
> Next work: Vacuum pump, waterpump.


    Cool very nice work 
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

I wounder what type of fitting is intended to fit the flat face an I think its a #5 BA thread on the water pump inlet an outlet.
Alec


----------



## Mechanicboy

I am making the vacuum pump and drilling the hole for vacuum pump in the soleplate. The problem is the machine tool who the home worker do not have: Big lathe + faceplate or a big milling machine. The solution ---> see the photo what i did. First center is set, then clean drilling with boring tool for be sure the hot spots in cast iron in sole plate is removed and in correct size 3/4". And next drill 3/4" to make 60 degree bottom in the hole for vacuum pump. To prevent the soleplate is rotating: let the soleplate lying on apron with the steelplate between the apron and soleplate for smooth moving. Under work, be sensitive to avoid accident during work.


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> I wounder what type of fitting is intended to fit the flat face an I think its a #5 BA thread on the water pump inlet an outlet.
> Alec



Alec..

I can think me the fittings is the banjo pipe fitting..


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> I am making the vacuum pump and drilling the hole for vacuum pump in the soleplate. The problem is the machine tool who the home worker do not have: Big lathe + faceplate or a big milling machine. The solution ---> see the photo what i did. First center is set, then clean drilling with boring tool for be sure the hot spots in cast iron in sole plate is removed and in correct size 3/4". And next drill 3/4" to make 60 degree bottom in the hole for vacuum pump. To prevent the soleplate is rotating: let the soleplate lying on apron with the steelplate between the apron and soleplate for smooth moving. Under work, be sensitive to avoid accident during work.


 
  Very Nice Work  Well Done !


----------



## Alec Ryals

Good call on the proper fitting.\
Thank You


----------



## Charles Lamont

A banjo fitting that screws into a 5BA hole would surely be too restrictive for your feed pump? The pump connections ought to have a clear passage something like half the diamater of the pump ram.


----------



## Mechanicboy

Charles Lamont said:


> A banjo fitting that screws into a 5BA hole would surely be too restrictive for your feed pump? The pump connections ought to have a clear passage something like half the diamater of the pump ram.



5BA is not correct size, see in the drawings of body of water pump where 4BA is threaded both inlet and outlet of the body of water pump.

I have looked for pipe connections that should have 4BA thread for water pump in Stuart Models homepage. There are not there, I do not understand why they produced water pump with other thread dimension than that found listed in Stuart Models homepage. Water passage between water pump and valve house is 2.05 mm (0.080") and blind screw is a 7BA screw. Banjo screw 4BA has an outer diameter of 3.6 mm (0.1417") and can have 2.05 mm (0.080") holes in the banjo screw. I would choose stainless steel because of toughness and could screw deep enough inside the water pump to whithstand pressure of feeding water. Or other alternative: Make an union with 4BA treads for water pump.


----------



## Mechanicboy

In case the model engineer do not have indexing tools or save time to make fastening hole (i has indexing table): Make correct distance and indexing of fastening hole with Turbocad or Autocad, then print out paper with absolute size before drilling the fastening hole on the flange --> see what i did.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Very Nice work, I had to use screws to hold the water pump on hence I didnt install it first ! an acess is almost impossible once the engine is assembled     I couldn't aford the $56.00 + price tag on the #9 tapered reamer so I use 1/32 roll pins but they sheared how did that home made reamer work on making the tapered #9 holes, maybe I will try 1/16 roll pins If I cant get one of those home made d-reamers to work!
Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello ,
 I wonder what size condenser I should build for the triple ?\any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> I couldn't aford the $56.00 + price tag on the #9 tapered reamer so I use 1/32 roll pins but they sheared how did that home made reamer work on making the tapered #9 holes, maybe I will try 1/16 roll pins If I cant get one of those home made d-reamers to work!
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals



Forged tapered #9 holes.. 

I used 2 mm pin of pianowire. The lever is fastened first to correct place then drilled 2 mm and fastened with 2 mm pin + locktite 638. 

The plan of condenser is here..


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank You for the plans on the condenser


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello Jens,
 I just started a Stuart triple yahoo club an can enter your email address if you send it to me and any others you may know 
Thank You
Alec Ryals    [email protected]


----------



## Alec Ryals

Im going to make a condenser with removable covers I wonder how to add the divider maybe a leaf spring loaded divider ?
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

I made a 2 piece vacuum pump piston with a Teflon gap-less ring with Lambert groves in it and works very well compared to no ring.
Alec


----------



## Herbiev

Great idea. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello all,
I just started a yahoo steam engine club
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Herbiev said:


> Great idea. Thanks for sharing.



   It is great to hear from people all over the world building these engines and other related items.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Hello all,
> I just started a yahoo steam engine club
> Alec Ryals



Hi, allready jointed to the Yahoo group "Steam Engines"


----------



## Alec Ryals

Well I timed each cylinder then hooked up the pipes for steam an low an behold it will run on air pressure I didn't think this was possible!
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Well I timed each cylinder then hooked up the pipes for steam an low an behold it will run on air pressure I didn't think this was possible!
> Alec Ryals



Yes, it works when the timing is correct in each cylinder when the triple steam engine will running on air. Did you get frozzen steam pipes between each cylinder? 

Here is a example the Stuart triple is bad timed hence the owner ran the Stuart triple with air connected to low pressure cylinder only. Also the owner had problems to adjust the right timing for each cylinder and tested with air for each cylinder before the steam pipes is connected. 

https://youtu.be/Yqn1wlsQeTQ


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> Yes, it works when the timing is correct in each cylinder when the triple steam engine will running on air. Did you get frozzen steam pipes between each cylinder?
> 
> Here is a example the Stuart triple is bad timed hence the owner ran the Stuart triple with air connected to low pressure cylinder only. Also the owner had problems to adjust the right timing for each cylinder and tested with air for each cylinder before the steam pipes is connected.
> 
> https://youtu.be/Yqn1wlsQeTQ


 
  How can you tell the timing is bad? I don't run it long enough on air to freeze the pipes but they sure got cold>
Thanks
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Alec Ryals said:


> How can you tell the timing is bad? I don't run it long enough on air to freeze the pipes but they sure got cold>
> Thanks
> Alec Ryals



   I see quite a few compound engines with what looks like a pressure relive valve atop the cylinder heads is this for water?
Thank You
Alec


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> How can you tell the timing is bad? I see quite a few compound engines with what looks like a pressure relive valve atop the cylinder heads is this for water?
> Thank You
> Alec



Bad timing --> Driving fast in forward and slowly in reverse due wrong timing excenter and misaligned slide and may cause it is impossible to run a triple steam engine with air. In triple steam engine, a cylinder go fast in forward and the other cylinder walk slowly in the same direction of rotation and creates more problems for the man to adjust properly if any do not adjust one for each cylinder first before steam pipes are mounted in place. I have read in the internet that some of those who had built Stuart triple steam engines have had problems with timing and given up and sold off because they could not get Stuart triple steam engine to walk properly either it ran on steam or air.

In real big steam engines have some an overpressure valve to relieve the steam engine in case the pressure is too large to destroy or exceed load steam engine. In model steam engine is mounted dummy parts on the cylinderhead to look realistic.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Alec Ryals said:


> Would you consider selling it?
> Thank You
> Alec Ryals



   Well im in the Hospital now and then a nursing home for 5 weeks an I cant sit up LOL  YIKES   any way all went well but I seem to of lost your number an cant fing that post.
Thank You
Alec Ryals   cell 650-380-0548


----------



## Alec Ryals

charlesfitton said:


> I have one of these kits in a box in the basement - Anyone want to build it for me?
> 
> f


                    Rich,  Alec here I lost your phone number.
 Alec  Cell  650-380-0548


----------



## Mechanicboy

I'm waiting to finish with triple steam engine because I was operated in foot for osteoarthritis in big toe on Thursday the 9th, 5 days ago. Continuing to finish with triple steam engine and write more about my work in the forum when I feel good. Today I have the painful to walk around after surgery.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> I'm waiting to finish with triple steam engine because I was operated in foot for osteoarthritis in big toe on Thursday the 9th, 5 days ago. Continuing to finish with triple steam engine and write more about my work in the forum when I feel good. Today I have the painful to walk around after surgery.



  Im in the hopital now also then on to a nursing home for 4 weeks hence I ha a small pressure sore on my butt, hence im in a wheelchair.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> I'm waiting to finish with triple steam engine because I was operated in foot for osteoarthritis in big toe on Thursday the 9th, 5 days ago. Continuing to finish with triple steam engine and write more about my work in the forum when I feel good. Today I have the painful to walk around after surgery.


 
  Get well soon !


----------



## Mechanicboy

Thanks, get well soon to you!


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> Thanks, get well soon to you!



     Wow Ive survived almost 6 weeks of off my but so my plastic will hold 10 to go an I'm very anxious to start machining again, Ive been polishing some bronze rods and sole plate for a twin and compound I'm building nurses don't care.  LOL
Alec


----------



## Mechanicboy

I am back! Today i maked the center pin to locate where the fastening hole will be located on slide plate with arm part #63 without difficulties. When the arm is placed on center pin, give it a light wack with hammer. Use same center pin to locate center before drilling the arm.  The piston rod for vacuum pump is screwed on slide plate with arm without binding or drag under full stroke in both ways. See the series of pictures..


----------



## Mechanicboy

Make a extra punch point top of the pump plunger and do it same manner as i did with centering pin for vacuum pump, see in the post #170. After hole in arm is drilled, remove punch point.


----------



## Alec Ryals

charlesfitton said:


> I have one of these kits in a box in the basement - Anyone want to build it for me?
> 
> f



    Hello Rich, Man Im still in the nursing home when they weighed me it opened up a few stitches I still am interested! 
Thank You Very Much
Alec Ryals
[email protected]
650-380-0548


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> Make a extra punch point top of the pump plunger and do it same manner as i did with centering pin for vacuum pump, see in the post #170. After hole in arm is drilled, remove punch point.



    Yes my water pump was right on but the vacuum pump was off a bit so I opened up the hole and used nuts on both sides to allow it to fin its happy place.   after that I thought about doing it this way and will do so on my next triple. Thank You
Alec Ryals


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Yes my water pump was right on but the vacuum pump was off a bit so I opened up the hole and used nuts on both sides to allow it to fin its happy place.   after that I thought about doing it this way and will do so on my next triple. Thank You
> Alec Ryals



Not easy to make exact measure each time depending on builder and use of tools..


----------



## Mechanicboy

I took the film one month before I mounted vacuum pump and water pump. This was the test run and checked that everything would be fine. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXqMLKHeQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXqMLKHeQ[/ame]


----------



## Charles Lamont

Well that all seems to run quite sweetly.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Cool it runs so smoothly! it took me a while to get timed mine timed but finally did thanks to your advice, I always heard a triple wont run on air ? but they do just not efficiently! I like the look of your reverse thread and hand wheel.
 Keep up the Great Work


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> Cool it runs so smoothly!  but they do just not efficiently! I like the look of your reverse thread and hand wheel.
> Keep up the Great Work



Thanks, ..  Air has not expansion as steam will do it, also steam will expanding about 3600 times (i am not sure if i remember right).



Alec Ryals said:


> it took me a while to get timed mine timed but finally did thanks to your advice, I always heard a triple wont run on air ?



In case the timing is not correct, triple steam engine will not run on air pressure as you can see the movie of the Stuart triple is running with air connected to low pressure cylinder. I can not be 100% sure that this Stuart triple in the film has been poorly adjusted to run properly. I have read in the forum in other website for model steam engines that Stuart triple was difficult to adjust and run properly. Therefore, I solved the problem by adjusting a cylinder at a time and test the pressure of air in each cylinder before all the cylinders were connected via manifolds. There you and perhaps others in the forum learned to adjust a triple steam machine without difficulty. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqn1wlsQeTQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqn1wlsQeTQ[/ame]


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> I took the film one month before I mounted vacuum pump and water pump. This was the test run and checked that everything would be fine.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXqMLKHeQ



    Great Job Love the hand wheel !
Alec


----------



## Alec Ryals

Here is my unit almost finished with condenser and some piping.
Alec Ryals


----------



## Alec Ryals

Mechanicboy said:


> I took the film one month before I mounted vacuum pump and water pump. This was the test run and checked that everything would be fine.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXqMLKHeQ



   How did this video get here ???


----------



## Mechanicboy

Alec Ryals said:


> How did this video get here ???



Paste the web adress from Youtube in this field and submit reply.

Nice work on the condenser.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Thank You
Alec


----------



## Mechanicboy

Here is the tips how to improve the Edwards vacuumpump against airleakage.  I used the O-ring to keep tight between the body and cover then the pistonrod is tight against airleakage by glandbox. The brass collar with  O-ring is adjustable in height to make a little play between vacuumpump body and cover before the cover bolts is screwed on place and the O-ring is pressed on cover to keep tight against airleakage. The red disc is soft teflon to keep tight against air leakage.  See the movie when i tested the Edwards vacuum pump, it show the vacuum pump is air tight. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL6i8MAElMo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL6i8MAElMo[/ame]


----------



## Alec Ryals

Hello Everyone,
  Just wondering were is a good source of gasket material it seems very hard to find 1/64" or less besides Stuart.
Any help will be Greatly Appreciated 
Alec Ryals


----------



## Blogwitch

Hi Alec,

I have been using virgin teflon sheet for many years with great results. It can be obtained in very thin sheets indeed.
















Assembles and disassembles beautifully and can be split open without replacement many many times. No sealant required at all.


John


----------



## Blogwitch

Forgot to add, just go onto ebay (or if in US, Amazon as well) and search for "Thin Virgin PTFE Teflon Sheet" and it should come up with whatever thickness you require for very little money.
You need the virgin bit as it also comes with many types of facing patterns on it, which is no use if you require it to seal.

Hope this helps

John


----------



## kvom

I used PTFE gaskets on my Muncaster engine.  .01" works very well.


----------



## Charles Lamont

> Just wondering were is a good source of gasket material it seems very hard to find 1/64" or less besides Stuart.


Thick paper may be all you need.


----------



## 10K Pete

There is a certain thin brown paper, very dense and smooth, that is/was
used, in the USA at least, for small flat bags such as those used in stationary
stores for cards and such. Small items were placed in them as 'carry' bags
for customers.

I have found that this paper makes excellent gasket material when oiled or
greased.

Pete


----------



## Blogwitch

The thing with ANY paper or fibre based gasket material, in the sizes and thicknesses we use on these models, it is very weak, plus it tends to get the sealing qualities destroyed once the joint is split, in other words, it is rather fragile.
With virgin PTFE, no other materials are required to get a good seal on the joint, oil, grease or jointing compound, it just seals for life.  Once you have cut the gasket, basically, if you don't damage it on assembly or subsequent disassembly, it will last the lifetime of the model.

Having upgraded many engines to this gasket material sent to me for repair, I can honestly say, it is the best thing I have ever used, to the stage I wouldn't use anything else.

This is part of a gasket set I made for a Marcher engine sent to me for repair after the customer told me it had paper gasket failure on the steam chests. Due to the very high temperatures in the engine room and near to the boiler, the paper material and it's coating had failed and bits of it were drawn into the steam chest, consequently wearing grooves in the port faces. 
Who says paper won't cause damage?






Port face on disassembly






After it had basic cleaning, showing the scoring.






The culprit, the oil soaked paper had hardened and turned into like pieces of a razor blade. Once it got in around the slide valve, the seal was doomed to failure.






And the cure






Once every gasket on the engine was replaced with PTFE, and I had shown him where to put heat shielding around his boiler, it ran perfectly, and as far as I know, no further problems have ever arisen.

The problem is that people won't take on the qualities of new materials, and continue to use outdated methods for making gaskets that have been used for the last couple of hundred years. Ok, it is a bit more expensive, but to me, is easier to make gaskets from, just a craft knife, compass cutter and a set of hole punches and you should get gaskets that never blow, leak or cause damage, basically, cut, fit and forget.

John


----------



## 10K Pete

Good grief John! I don't think anyone will argue against PTFE. But some
still want to know about paper. What can I say that you haven't already 
said about PTFE??

Pete


----------



## Blogwitch

Hi Pete,

All I was trying to do is to bring PTFE into the limelight against the 'old' methods.

Nothing wrong with the old stuff, it has worked well for a couple of hundred years, and I myself used to use greased or oiled paper and card on my steam and i/c engines, and found it lacking in all areas. I also used to work in an industry where we used to use super heated steam, and even those at the time were using 1/8" to 1/4" thick fibre gaskets, and they tended to fail rather regularly. Looking around now, they all seem to have gone over to this new material.

The main problem with modelling, we tend to scale things down, including gasket thicknesses, just to make things 'look right', but liquids, pressures, steam and heat don't scale down, they stay the same as full size, and that is why old style gaskets fail on our models, they are not strong enough materials.
40 years ago, the average model boiler ran at somewhere around 10 to 20 psi, nowadays, they tend to start at 30psi and go up to well over 100. So again, the old styles are being put under stronger pressure, not intended as a pun.

Sorry to have overloaded everyones senses about PTFE, but if a little of the info sticks in someones mind, I am doing my job correctly, as I have been doing for many years, and that is passing on information that is easily understood and informative as well, plus hopefully, may be of use to others.

John


----------



## 10K Pete

Don't stop what you're doing John. I just felt like you really took a run at
my post! We're too sensitive and we both know why.

Where did you get those 'cutting' calipers??

Pete


----------



## Blogwitch

I wasn't taking a dig at you at all Pete, but anyway, it is called a compass cutter, and the very expensive ones are made by OLFA, but I purchased mine from a local market stall many years ago for around a pound (1.5 bucks). It came with about 5 spare blades of which I have at least half of them left. Cheapo ones should be available from ebay.

To get a really good cut, you don't use it as you maybe think it is used, that is sticking the centre pin in and doing the circle, it ends up all over the place.

I stick the pin and a tiny bit of the cutter tip through the material into the cutting mat or soft wooden board, and then drag the material gently past the cutting tip. It cuts perfect circles every time doing it like that, and the scale marked on the side gives perfect sizes.

Hope this helps

John


----------



## Charles Lamont

John, it seems this stuff is available down to 0.001" thick. What range of thicknesses do you prefer?


----------



## Blogwitch

Charles,

I use 0.002" for precision lapped or ground faces or 0.005" for general purpose work, sometimes I would use thicker if I was replacing old card gaskets to retain correct alignments, but for head gasket material on i/c engines, I used 0.010" or 0.015", the difference was to allow adjustment for compression ratios.

Throw nothing away as you can use most of the offcuts for making tiny gaskets. I am still using bits and pieces of 12" square sheets I bought over 10 years ago.







John


----------



## mechman48

Mechanicboy said:


> I took the film one month before I mounted vacuum pump and water pump. This was the test run and checked that everything would be fine.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXqMLKHeQ


 
Tried to watch vid but all I get on my screen is a black square; is there something I have missed ? I use IE11, Win 8.1

George

p.s. the link shows up on my reply... see above... clicked on... plays ok.


----------



## Alec Ryals

Teflon sheet seems to be the gasket ticket it comes in all thicknesses from mcmaster-carr


----------



## Alec Ryals

Beware of Jeff Wynn   he is a rip off


----------

