# Horizontal Mill Engine From Kit



## zeeprogrammer

My next 'major' project is "The Elderberry Mill Engine".

Some of you may recall this was going to be my 'first' engine. But then I found out it was the 2nd in a series. The first was the 'Open Column Launch Engine'. So I did that 'first'. The intent was a learning thread and because of the great help and participation of several members of this forum, the thread was nominated 'July 2009 Project of the Month'. It was very much a team nomination.

The 'Mill' will be another learning thread. After all, I only started any kind of machining last February and I have a lot to learn (as evidenced by the Launch Engine thread ;D.) What that means is that this is another team or forum thread.

ChooChooMike provided a pic of the project in the other thread. Here it is...

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Products/Images/480/480.3136.jpg

The kit was purchased from LittleMachineShop. You get a construction manual and a set of drawings, a packing list and the following bits and pieces...







The manuals do rely on the idea that you've completed the 'Open Column Launch Engine'.

Unfortunately, a few intrusions from life are temporarily slowing me down but I hope to get into full swing in a few weeks. I just couldn't wait any longer to get this started. Even so, I got bit by 'Projectitus' - the Rockin' Engine, (just like several other members) and have ordered some metal to try my hand at it. In addition, I have a tool thread running that I'd still like to work on. (But I tend to be single-minded so those two projects may stay on the back-burner for a while.)


----------



## vlmarshall

Nice to see a new engine on the slab. Double acting, with reverse... very interesting!


----------



## Foozer

Lot of pieces going there. Sad part is, you'll be done with it before I finish the "Rocker"

Good part is, you'll be done with it before I finish the "Rocker"



> Unfortunately, a few intrusions from life



There just little bits of adventurous sight seeing as you travel down the road of life. Its the ones that resemble a flat with no spare, during a monsoon, at 3 in the morning that get a tad bothersome.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Chip...I mean Vernon.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> Sad part is, you'll be done with it before I finish the "Rocker". Good part is, you'll be done with it before I finish the "Rocker"



No...it'll take more than a few hours. ;D



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> There just little bits of adventurous sight seeing as you travel down the road of life. Its the ones that resemble a flat with no spare, during a monsoon, at 3 in the morning that get a tad bothersome.



It rained the other day. Looked like it was going to be a storm. Thankfully, the sun came out. Looks like good weather for a while.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Chip...I mean Vernon.


I saw that. 

Gonna start on the engine tomorrow?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> Gonna start on the engine tomorrow?



If I'm lucky. It's my daughter's 25th. Going to pick up some brownies and ice cream at the store and order in some Chinese. If I don't overdo the eats then I should be in shape to do something easy...the hose couplings. I cleaned the shop and equipment today.

I can only get a couple of days in though and then I'm off to visit wife for a week. That would be one of the more pleasant of life's intrusions (and no rain). ;D


----------



## vlmarshall

Updates, updates! What have you been doing?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Finally I'm in the shop!

Progress on two fronts!!!

1) Made a couple of hose couplings.
2) Added to my 'wall of shame'.

Not much to show...so I have just the one pic.

One piece of rod (well two really...the 1st ended up in 'the box').
Cut a thread relief using my home made parting tool from a bit of hack saw blade.
Chamfered the end.
Threaded using a 3/16-40 die.
Turned the die around and threaded to the shoulder.
Center drilled then peck drilled 3/32 for about 1" in.
Turned the rod around and did the other end the same way.
Rechucked so 3/4" of the rod stuck out plus enough room for parting.
Stuck a small allen key partway in to keep the part from falling when I parted it off.
Cleaned off the end of the other piece to size.

Polishing is a problem. For now I threaded the coupling into my first engine (Model 2A) and polished as best I could. Later I'll take a piece of rod and tap an end and use it to hold the coupling for a better polishing job. Depends on which looks best - the rest of the engine...or the couplings. ;D






Went from using a dime to a penny for scale. I'm not worth a dime.

Here's a link that shows the addition to the 'wall of shame'. But the main reason for the link is that I had questions about couplings.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5669.msg59920;topicseen#new

So it's a start.

[EDIT: In trying to keep the length of the thread to 0.125, I ended up with 4 threads. We'll see if that's enough.]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Progress!

1) Made the crankshaft bearing.
2) Added to my 'wall of shame'.

The instructions tell you to chuck the 1/2" diameter part such that a little over an inch is sticking out of the chuck and maybe 1/2" is in the chuck. Since the part has to be drilled thru, I center drilled it and used a live center.






Then turned 2 diameters. I don't know what they're called...the part that is held by the column and the part that sticks out towards the flywheel. I didn't understand the instructions very well so I think I screwed up the measurements. The length held by the column is a press fit. So you're supposed to add 0.005 to the size. I turned down to the size. I'll either make the hole in the column a tad smaller or use loctite.

Unfortunately the picture came out blurry. Too bad. This is the best work I've ever done in my life and no one can see it.






Then removed the life center and drilled and reamed. Put the part into a vise to drill the oil hole. Used an edge finder. The orange bits are from a foam halloween decoration to keep the parallels from moving. Used a #1 center drill so you get a tapered entry. Could have been better. I should've checked to see how far to drill down. Too far and the tapers would get into the center and create a bigger hole. As it was...I was lucky.






Here's the finished part and new addition to the 'wall of shame'. I'm sure you can tell the difference. I was in the midst of turning the 1st part when I got distracted by the arrival of a daughter. I don't know what happened but the cut went too deep. You can see it at the top.






Still need to work on measuring. I think the part is a tad short and the oil hole may be off too. However I think I did okay in centering it.

So the questions...

The part required turning down to a diameter for a specified length. Then again for a short length. I'm not happy with how I'm setting or determining those lengths. What I did was:
1) Set the tool against the end then backed up the compound the required distance.
2) Then moved the carriage until the tool was back against the part again.
3) Set the carriage stop.
4) Move the compound back to where it was.
5) Tried to check with a caliper.

Well backlash is an issue. And the caliper is hard to place for measurement. Certainly not an accurate procedure.

I didn't want to use the compound to feed...the quality of cut is bad bad bad.

Comments?


----------



## kvom

Here's what I was taught about measuring length along the carriage:

1) Get a DI with a "Mighty Mag" allowing it to be stuck to the ways.

2) Assuming you are turning less than 1", position the tool at the beginning of the cut and slide the magnet until the DI contacts the carriage and the needle moves.

3) Adjust the DI dial to 0

4) Now move the carriage left until the DI indicates the desired length. The carriage is now at the end of the cut you want. (You might even touch the tool to the work as a visual marker).

5) Slide the magnet left until the DI is indicating around .100. Zero the dial.

Now when you are turning, either via power feed or manual, watch the DI. When the needle starts to move you are .100 from the end, and hence one full rotation of the needle. With a power feed you should be able to stop easily before the needle hits 0, and then manually complete the cut.

If you need to turn more than 1", hold a 123 block between the carriage and the DI to extend its reach.

Try to keep the DI feeler as horizontal as possible to avoid cosine error, although it will be small in any case.


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

My way of using the compound slide to measure a length to a shoulder.

1. Zero the compound slide dial after setting the compound back from the edge approximately equal to the length of cut.

2. Set the tool tip onto the faced end using a thin piece of paper. The tip should be one which will both face and cut axially.

3. Set the carriage stop.

4. Back off the carriage and then move the compound slide to equal the length required minus 0.005". (The slide should now be fully supported by it's dovetails, see 1. above, for best rigidity).

5. Lock the compound slide, (in my case tighten the centre gib screw).

6. Start machining to the shoulder.

7. On the final axial cut when you are at the length. Unlock the compound slide and with the lathe still running advance the compound 0.005". Feed the tool out and away from the corner to give the correct sized shoulder.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom: Thanks. I've been playing around with it but I'm struggling with a couple of things. Is the DI to the left of carriage? I don't seem to have room to do that. Got any pics or know where I can look?

Bob: Thanks. My concern here is backlash in the compound. Step 1 has it moving to the right. Then step 4 has it going the other way for length. Any thoughts on that?


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Bob: Thanks. My concern here is backlash in the compound. Step 1 has it moving to the right. Then step 4 has it going the other way for length. Any thoughts on that?



Zee,

After moving to the right in step 1. Take out he backlash by moving to the left and then zero the dial. Nothing is yet a critical measurement.

I hope that has taken the confusion away.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Maryak  said:
			
		

> After moving to the right in step 1. Take out he backlash by moving to the left and then zero the dial. Nothing is yet a critical measurement.
> 
> I hope that has taken the confusion away.



Ah...yes...thanks.
So my method was close but completely wrong. ;D


----------



## mklotz

> So my method was close but completely wrong.



I love it. Sounds like some of the stuff I used to say in staff meetings after the test article blew up on the pad.


----------



## kvom

It looks to me as if you could salvage that wall of shame part. Cut off the section at the top that's too small and move everything down.

Bob's system will work well (you need a carriage stop) as long as the length you are turning is shorter than the travel of the compound. On my lathe, having the compound at 0 degrees interferes with the tailstock for most work. I just leave it at 29.5. Having a DRO makes things easier.

The DI with the magnet works very nicely if there's room to place it.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom  said:
			
		

> It looks to me as if you could salvage that wall of shame part. Cut off the section at the top that's too small and move everything down.
> 
> Bob's system will work well (you need a carriage stop) as long as the length you are turning is shorter than the travel of the compound. On my lathe, having the compound at 0 degrees interferes with the tailstock for most work. I just leave it at 29.5. Having a DRO makes things easier.
> 
> The DI with the magnet works very nicely if there's room to place it.



You're right. Probably could have salvaged. But I think I would have had to move the part out of the chuck a bit and, knowing me, I wouldn't get it true again. Maybe I can use the part in a Rocking Engine. (That's right Robert/Foozer...I haven't forgotten.)

I tried Bob's method with the result being more improvement in my ability to miss-measure. I was off by 0.01. I don't know what I did wrong or if there's slippage somewhere. I'll have to try again. I also want to try your method. I'm thinking the DI can be placed to the right and get the same thing.

Thanks kvom.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Maybe I can use the part in a Rocking Engine. (That's right Robert/Foozer...I haven't forgotten.)



 Thm:


----------



## kvom

> I'm thinking the DI can be placed to the right and get the same thing.



It would work as long as the distance is less than the range of the DI, but you would have to pay more attention to the needle. I'm surprised there isn't a place on the side of the headstock to mount a magnet.


----------



## mklotz

IMNHO, every lathe needs two carriage stops - one on each side of the carriage.

Fit the one on the right of the carriage with a DI mounted such that, when the carriage is against the stop, the DI is depressed slightly less than its full range. That way, you can't accidentally jam up the DI and break it.

I keep my compound adjusted with its axis parallel to the spindle axis so I use Bob's technique to cut shoulders to length. However, if I didn't want to do that, I would use the two stops as follows...

Move carriage so tool touches outboard end of work.

Move right stop up against carriage and lock. Zero DI.

Move tool out from work using cross-slide. Move carriage desired amount as indicated on right stop DI.

Bring left stop up against carriage and lock.

Move right stop out of way.

You could of course substitute a DI on a magnetic holder for the right stop but it's still worth the time to build that stop. You'll understand why the first time you try to machine a feature in the "middle" of a workpiece, e.g., a crankshaft.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom  said:
			
		

> I'm surprised there isn't a place on the side of the headstock to mount a magnet.



kvom:

Maybe could. The high/low gear switch is there...but still. Maybe even the motor cover...but it's a bit loose.

In any case...your tips reminded me of alternatives to what I was doing.
Thanks.

Marv:

If I understand right...the stop to the right is really just there to protect the DI should the carriage be moved too far too fast to the right and damaging something. Considering me...not a bad idea.

But...you seem to imply a (right) stop that can also hold a DI. That would be interesting. Is that what you meant?

Thanks.

If I'm wrong...then what you said is what I meant. ;D


----------



## Foozer

Look around HERE
for carriage stop DI mounts

Here for photo

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Aha! Thanks Robert.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Progress!

1) 
2) Added to my 'wall of shame'.

That's right. No good part tonight. Almost...right up to the last cut...then fooey.

Took a run at the crankshaft. Kit came with one piece of 1018 steel from which 3 parts are to be made. So...used my new bandsaw for the first time! (Said bandsaw being the reason for the meds the other night. Put it together, bent over to lift it up, stayed in that position for the rest of the night. Dad tells me I'm not a young man anymore. Thanks Dad. Thanks very much.)

Anyway...chucked it up, applied live center, and turned it down from 1" to the requisite 0.187". Now to trim the sacrificial end so it can be bent off. It popped off the live center and the shaft got bent. Aforementioned 'fooey'.

The problem was I cheated on the live center. The part was a bit short so I didn't make a deep enough center hole for the live center. I probably also fed too fast.

I'm also bummed that I still haven't the knack of measuring things right. I tried to be careful when I set the cutter to 1.62" from the shoulder....but no...I was short again.

I have plenty more 1018 but I'm thinking I'll hack off a chunk of 12L14 and try that next. Everyone seems to think its nice stuff and I've never used it before.

I don't know if the part can be salvaged. Whether it can or not really doesn't matter. I want try making another so I can learn how to make it right the first time rather than learning how to cover my boo-boos.

Well...I'm not leaving without posting a pic. It's not part of this project but I made it the other night.







Why did I make that part? Ask Foozer.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Close to bed time but I couldn't wait.
Hacked off a bit of 12L14, chucked it up, and took a few passes.

1018 vs 12L14...

12L14 didn't get as hot as fast.
12L14 produced a bunch of itty bitty chips rather than long strings.
12L14 finish was nicer.

Now to expose myself...

For both metals I was taking 0.005 deep cuts with a spindle speed of about 1100 and using power feed with 'out of box' gearing. I used an index-able carbide tool on a mini-lathe. (I noticed that one corner got chipped up pretty badly on that last 'fooey' and I had to 'index' the cutter.)

I have no idea what the correct depths and feed rate are. I just fiddled with depth and rate until it seemed to look good and didn't complain. I have a feeling I'm being too cautious. I know some metals like a deeper cut, slower speed...but I haven't developed the experience yet.

Why would I bother with 1018? (Other than that's what comes in the kits?) If I remember right, the price of 12L14 versus 1018 didn't strike me as all that different? But like Dad said...I'm not a young man anymore and maybe the memory is going. Hey! Did I tell you I tried some 12L14 tonight?


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> That's right. No good part tonight. Almost...right up to the last cut...then fooey.




Yeah, it's always the last cut, Zee. It'll all work out.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. You must have typed that when the 2nd fooey occurred tonight.

I couldn't help myself...even though it's way past bed-time...I had another go at the crankshaft. I was really happy with the finish...even after increasing the cut to 0.001 (which might still be rather small). Then it was time to trim off the sacrificial bit.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. (Well...obviously I'm doing something wrong...I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.) Things were going well...then poop...broke in two and the shaft was bent.

The instructions are to turn down to size...then move the cutter to the point where the end of the crankshaft is going to be...then cut in partway. Remove the part and bend the end piece off. I didn't think I'd cut in far enough to be able to bend the part off.

Well on the upside...this is the first piece of 12L14 I've added to my 'wall of shame'. It won't be lonely for long.

Drat.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Close to bed time but I couldn't wait.
> Hacked off a bit of 12L14, chucked it up, and took a few passes.
> 
> 1018 vs 12L14...
> 
> 12L14 didn't get as hot as fast.
> 12L14 produced a bunch of itty bitty chips rather than long strings.
> 12L14 finish was nicer.
> 
> Now to expose myself...
> 
> For both metals I was taking 0.005 deep cuts with a spindle speed of about 1100 and using power feed with 'out of box' gearing. I used an index-able carbide tool on a mini-lathe. (I noticed that one corner got chipped up pretty badly on that last 'fooey' and I had to 'index' the cutter.)



Tried some 1144 tonight, (tailstock ram replacement) seemed to like about 350 rpm with a 0.020 cut depth 0.002 per rev feed, HSS bit. Doesn't leave long curls, just a pile of little short curled pieces. Faster just made more heat and poor surface finish. 'member carbide not to fond of light cuts.

Got 3 feet of it to make a 6 inch part. Sure I'm gonna use a foot of it to get the speed and feed figured out. The "Bucket of Repurpose Material" is getting fuller



> Why did I make that part? Ask Foozer.






Robert


----------



## arnoldb

Don't worry Zee - all part of the learning experience 
Can I suggest that rather than using automatic feeds, rather do it manually ? - you will get a "feel" for the cutting that will help you to determine depth of cut and feedrate.

As to that "mystery part" - I've seen that somewhere as well Rof} - Robert also knows ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

I used power feed for turning down to size. That produced a very nice finish. Otherwise I get a wavy finish (at best) because of the change in cutting pressure as I crank. It's a cheapie lathe and I'm still working out how to adjust the thing to make it rigid yet loose enough to turn.

I used manual when I tried to make the cut for bending off the sacrificial end. I'm obviously still developing my 'feel'. 

The diameter of the shaft is just 3/16". I'm not sure using a cutter is such a good idea to cut a groove so the end can be bent off. And...I think the spindle speed was way too high. Maybe I'll try a hacksaw and slow speed. If I'm lucky...tonight!

But I have a work-related meeting tonight and there's only 4 days left before my wife comes home...I still haven't weeded or cleaned. I am in such trouble.


----------



## kvom

Turning a 1" rod down to 3/16 seems like a lot of work to me.  ??? Personally I would just get some 3/16 drill rod. Once you start to make models from bar stock having several diameters of drill rod on hand is very convenient. It's only a few dollars for each from Enco.

Do you have a parting tool? if so, then chuck the rod as close to the headstock as you can and cut all the way through (no tailstock).

As said earlier, carbide likes higher speeds and feeds. Myself, I use HSS on the lathe for everything. If you don't like the finish you can always polish it up with some abrasive cloth and/or scotchbrite. For turning and facing I use the power feed whever possible.


----------



## mklotz

I think we may have another case of dumb instructions here.

I don't know for sure what your engine plans look like but I know that the engine is almost a direct copy of Elmer's mill engine and I've built that. Looking at that engine, the crankshaft is nothing more than a 1" disk on the end of a 3/16" shaft (which seems to agree with the dimensions you've mentioned).

Turning this from the solid is certainly one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard of. Cut a disk from some 1" stock and solder/Loctite it to a piece of 3/16" rod. 

One of the first things a machinist does when faced with making a part is to decide whether it should be carved from the solid or built-up from simpler parts. Get in the habit of doing this after you've discarded the instructions.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom: Yep...lot of work. Marv is right about keeping the 1" disk on the end...that's the reason for removing all the rest of the material. Getting some HSS turning tools soon and will try them. More about that in a moment.

Marv: re: 'dumb instructions'...probably. But I have two reasons for staying with this. 1) Maybe the next poor inexperienced soul like me who tries this kit will have seen this thread and learned something. 2) For this specific part...you may (okay...are) right. But...can one say that there's never a situation where this kind of operation is not called for? Because in that case learning how to do it is worthwhile.

Coming back to HSS tools before someone slaps me up side the head and tells me to make them...

When I was learning to become a programmer...I learned how to use the tools to make a good program...then I learned how to make tools to make a better program. It just seems like a similar situation here. Let me learn how to use the tools...with that experience I'll know how a tool looks, works, feels like....then I can make tools. I'll get there.

On the same note...once I've learned how to do something...then I'm prepared to customize and/or go my own way.

Thanks. Sorry if this sounded too defensive. Not meant to be. I just don't want to scare off other newbies.


----------



## mklotz

I can sympathize with your argument that one needs to learn to do various operations and following the book will be instructive for future novice readers.

On the other hand, I want those same novice readers to understand another very important aspect of metalworking.

The advice you get from "The Book" or your mentor may not always be the best way to get the job done. You (all) need to learn what latitude you have to safely depart from the suggested solution (and what other problems may be induced by doing so).

If I were forced at gun point to do what you're doing, I'd cut the sacrifical end off by sticking the entire part (disk and shaft) into the inside of a 3/16" C5 collet with just the sacrifice sticking out. Mount collet and use saw/cutoff tool to make the offering, then face to finish.

If I didn't have a C5 collet, I'd make one - a 3/16 split bushing that can hold part in the 3jaw while the sacrifice is made.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I made my previous reply at work then went home for lunch. On the way home I was thinking I wasn't happy with my reply. Primarily - I don't want people to stop giving advice or alternatives. I was hoping to edit my post before anyone else did.

Drat. You got there first. Happily, it appears you didn't take my post wrong.

I'm not advocating anyone else should take the same path I am. It's whatever works for them. Which is why I was unhappy with my previous post. Keep the advice and alternatives coming.

As for the 5C...I should be receiving some within a few days. I'll wait to see it but I'm thinking the 1" disk is still a problem.

[EDIT: Meant to add that I'd made one of those crankshafts for the Open Launch Engine. Same procedure. Wondering why I was successful then but not now.]
Thanks Marv.


----------



## mklotz

5C collets go up to 1" in size*. Since the interior aperture is the same in all of them, the 3/16" should swallow the 1" disk easily.

You're gonna love having collets. Used with maximum cleverness, they allow one to do all sorts of things that are difficult/impossible with a conventional chuck.

---
* There is a 1-1/8" size but it won't pass a 1-1/8 rod completely through it. A 1" collet will pass a 1" rod to full length.


----------



## arnoldb

> When I was learning to become a programmer...I learned how to use the tools to make a good program...then I learned how to make tools to make a better program. It just seems like a similar situation here. Let me learn how to use the tools...with that experience I'll know how a tool looks, works, feels like....then I can make tools. I'll get there.


This is very true Zee - I share your sentiments 100%. If I may comment though...
My view is that you can only truly get the best out of your tools (or anything you do) if you get the basic principles down pat. And just as important is to keep an open mind as to what you are doing, and how you are doing it, and what you are aiming at. Add to this a bit of creativity and you are unlimited in what you can do. Yes, you will make mistakes, but we all learn from our mistakes - more so than from getting something right on the first try.
Sometimes, going by the book works, but, like Marv said 





> The advice you get from "The Book" or your mentor may not always be the best way to get the job done. You (all) need to learn what latitude you have to safely depart from the suggested solution (and what other problems may be induced by doing so).


 Some experimentation is required - your so-called "wall of shame" is actually your "wall of learning" - every bit is experience earned, and no amount of money can buy experience!

I'm learning in parallel with you - I've "cheated" on the original build instructions on the 2 engines I finished so far - out of necessity, but the experience gained building them are priceless, and I think the "cheats" were worth-while.

Many of the most beautiful engines built by other members on this site were done without plans or guidance - they explored new frontiers, designed and built new engines, and shared them for others to copy and build. Who wrote the C programming language for others to use? What prompted Blaize Pascal to build the "Difference Engine"? It's all back to basics - do what YOU think is best, if it works, GREAT, if it fails, RETRY in another way and use the "pioneering spirit"!

Please accept my sincere apologies if this drivel is out of place and adds no value :-\.
Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv: Thanks. Looking forward to playing with them.

Arnold: I haven't seen any drivel on this forum yet. (Save my own ;D.)

I think we're in vigorous agreement. Get the fundamentals, the principles...then play. It's too easy to develop some bad habits otherwise. So maybe some are ready to play before I am. That's okay.

I wouldn't know whether the book (or mentor) is right or wrong until I tried it. Don't think I'm trying to follow the 'book' 100%...I have certainly deviated in some things. What was curious to me in this case was the fact I'd done it before...and got a good part.

The 'wall of learning' was mentioned before...in fact I'm going to try to refer to it as just that.
Then it's a more positive thing to add to and you can only make progress - good part or not. ;D.


----------



## kvom

I checked my 5C collet set. The inner bore of the 3/16" collet is .998 as close as I can measure it, so you might need your crankshaft a bit undersize to fit. I also measured the depth of the clamping area as about 1.4", so if the length of the 3/16 part is less than that you'll need another approach.

Of course, your set may be machined a bit differently.


----------



## CrewCab

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Get the fundamentals, the principles...then play.



That seems like a good plan, if your confident you can use the basic functions of a lathe & Mill safely then it's a good time to press on a little further, ......... I think I'm on about the second rung of the ladder 

I'll be interested to hear your opinion of the 5c collet's, I have been thinking about it recently, a year back I was hesitant to fit any new chuck, but having done a couple now it's fairly simple, just take it steady and creep up on the register, sadly, ........ I can only seem to find steel backplates locally now, I'm sure the first one I turned (about a year back) was Cast Iron, what are you using for yours.

Whatever, have fun.

CC


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, you don't drivel! You "think out loud", ask for opinions, and then work from that. That is highly commendable!
And THANK YOU for taking us along for the ride!!! :bow: 


> So maybe some are ready to play before I am. That's okay.


Just enjoy the "play" time, and the rest will sort itself out 
Regards, Arnold









Here's one from me  !
And PS: CC and kvom posted while I was thinking :big:


----------



## Foozer

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> And THANK YOU for taking us along for the ride!!!



Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?


----------



## vlmarshall

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> Zee, you don't drivel ! You "think out loud", ask for opinions, and then work from that. That is highly commendable!
> And THANK YOU for taking us along for the ride!!! Just enjoy the "play" time, and the rest will sort itself out.



Quoted for truth. Well said.


Keep it up, Zeep! :bow:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I had a post but somehow it didn't take. Maybe forgot to press 'post'. Too bad. It was the best reply I've ever made and now no one can enjoy it.

Got my 5C collets today! And a spin indexer as suggested by the 'instructions'. Well let's just not say anymore about that. ;D

I'm thinking though that people are talking about using the 5C in the lathe. I did a quick look on the net. I'd need an adaptor, a backplate, and a stop. The adaptor alone seems to be $200. I'm wondering if the backplate that came with my 4-jaw will do. In any case I'll wait and see how wife reacts when she returns Monday and sees I haven't done the weeding and cleaning.

Keep on eye on this thread next week. There may be a sale of a small lathe and mill and a bunch of tooling - cheap. I have to admit...wife is priority (although I wonder if 'firebird' is still looking for a deal).

Am I right in believing that a 5C collet is a 5C collet? That is, that thread, length, etc. will be the same. Or put another way...the 5C for the spin indexer can be used in the lathe?

kvom: I measured them and you're right. I'd have to turn the disc down a bit.

CC: Well as you can see...I doubt I'll be much help until I figure out the lathe/5C stuff. At least you're on the ladder. I haven't even found it yet. ;D

Arnold: Thanks! And speaking of drivers...see that back-seat driver that followed you?

Robert: I remember what my Dad did when I ask that.

Vernon: At my age it's not easy...but I'll try....oh.

Thanks all....now for another go...


----------



## CrewCab

Spinidex is a good start for the mill ZP ;D .......... you will gain a lot by having a 5c chuck on the lathe though, just by being able to interchange parts. 

Have a look at this *Thread*

Have a fun weekend, weeding and cleaning could be therapeutic, certainly be good for your health come Monday :

CC


----------



## two dogs

Carl,
I got a 5C chuck for my lathe from CDCO. I checked and it's still $139. You'll need an adapter to bolt it on your lathe, but that's only about $30. The chuck is really nice, runs very true. Once you use collets, you'll never want to use a jawed chuck again ;D

Mark


----------



## zeeprogrammer

CC: Great thread you linked! Thanks! That should prove very helpful in the future. That's the very spin index I got.

Weeding and cleaning could be therapeutic huh? Liar. :big: She was in London not too long ago. How much did she pay you?

Mark: Found it. Yeah $60 cheaper. What about the thingie (draw bar?) that tightens up the collet?

Thanks!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Progress!

1) Made the crankshaft.
2) Added the two 'experiments' from last night to the 'wall of learning'.

Still need to machine the flat and the hole for the pin. Hopefully this weekend unless guilt overcomes me and I actually get to the weeding and cleaning. (Well, it won't be guilt. It'll be fear. Plain, old, refreshing cold fear.)

Still haven't gotten measuring down...it won't matter for the engnie but the shaft is about 0.025 too long.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Poop.
Could I leave well enough alone? Nope.

Shaft won't go into bearing.

Maybe I should try gardening (weeding) instead.

Ah well...we'll fix it later.


----------



## rake60

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Poop.
> Could I leave well enough alone? Nope.



 Rof}
Zee you made my night with that comment!

It *WILL* come together. 
Just be patient.

Rick


----------



## shred

FWIW, the 'poor mans' collet chuck is one of the 5C collet blocks (square or hex, as appropriate) chucked up in a 4 or 3 jaw chuck. Collet blocks are very handy things in any case.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Shred,

When looking for 5C collets I came across those collet blocks but I had no idea how they work (specifically how they tighten) or what one does with them.

Your post got me to looking around the forum and the net. They do look handy and I got some my questions answered.

Looks like you insert the collet in the block, attach the ring, use the ring closure to tighten the ring (and collet) then remove the closure? Then you can clamp the thing in a mill or use the vise to hold it.

But I haven't found anything that showed them chucked in a lathe. Does it take a different kind of chuck? On my little system it would seem the collet assembly would be sticking out a few inches. 

I'll keep looking but any shortcuts would be appreciated.


----------



## kvom

You are correct about mounting the collet/work in the block.

If you use the ring bolt you just leave it on until done. The ring is tightened with a pin spanner, that costs extra. Blocks come with a cam closer; you screw it on and then use a lever to tighten it. Personally I always use the pin spanner/ring.

You can hold the hex block in a 3 or 6 jaw chuck, and the square block in a 4-jaw. However, the runout will be the same as for the chuck, not the collet.






If you want to mill a 60 or 90 degree angle in round stock, the collet block held in the vise is likely easier and more accurate than the same in the spindex.

Note that you do not want to use a 5C collet on a piece that is more than a few thousandths smaller than the size of the collet.


----------



## mklotz

> Shaft won't go into bearing.



You were supposed to test the bearing on the shaft while the latter was still in the lathe. That's why you made the bearing first, n'est-ce pas? Of course, if you'd used drill rod for the shaft ..., but I won't go there.

Now that you have collets, consider collet blocks to be an essential, not optional, buy.
There are just so many things one can do with them when model making.

Before you use your Spindex in anger, spend some time convincing yourself that you really understand how the angular vernier works. It's not complicated but I've encountered a number of novices who were confused initially. 

If you have the headroom on the mill, adding a base block to the Spindex so it can be clamped in the mill vise is a great idea. Like Bogs, I've done that to mine and the convenience factor ensures that I use it when it's needed rather than attempting some hokey workaround.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks kvom. That helps a lot. Especially the bit about the spanner. (And the tip about runout.)



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> You were supposed to test the bearing on the shaft while the latter was still in the lathe. That's why you made the bearing first, n'est-ce pas?



Marv Marv Marv. Yes I knew that (for once...I think) but there was that bit at the end of the shaft that had to be cut off. I had no way (at least the way I did it), to make the tip smaller. Maybe I overcompensated for not having the live center deep enough and went too deep...but I don't think so.

So, once the tip was cut, no more turning allowed since there was (supposed to be) 1.62" sticking out. So down to sanding, which I can still do. I'll watch for taper. (Have that problem anyway as there seems to be about a 0.001 to 0.002 runout along that 1.62".)

Any comment on the idea of rechucking the bearing and reaming with a 0.001 larger reamer? Probably not a good idea huh?

'anger'? No anger here. Pay no attention to that crankshaft sticking out of the wall. Or the flywheel embedded in the ceiling. Means nothing. But I'm thinking you meant 'in earnest'.

Little headroom on the mill. But I should receive the extension kit today or Monday. Probably won't do anything with it for a while.

Thanks Marv.


----------



## mklotz

Ah, you need a zombie (half-dead) center so you can work right out to the tip of the stock.

Turning long (say L/D > 6) shafts without taper is always a dodgy enterprise unless your lathe is perfectly rigid and perfectly adjusted. That's why we try to avoid doing that whenever possible.

You can try enlarging the bearing. This is where a set of over/under reamers comes in handy. Hold the reamer only by the very tip of the shaft in the tailstock chuck. That way it can deflect more easily to follow the existing bearing hole.

I would prefer to fix the shaft however. Filing/sanding to remove the taper and size it to the (presumed parallel) hole in the bearing will make for a better, wobble-free fit in an area where small inaccuracies are fairly obvious in the final product.

"Use in anger" refers to the military interpretation, i.e., used in a situation where the outcome of the use is important - as opposed to use in a practice situation. LEOs often say that they've never shot their sidearm "in anger". Anyway, it has nothing to do with actual rug-chewing anger.


----------



## JMI

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Of course, if you'd used drill rod for the shaft ..., but I won't go there.



If it isn't any trouble I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Thanks

Jim


----------



## mklotz

JMI  said:
			
		

> If it isn't any trouble I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.



Go back and read replies 31 through 34 in this thread and you'll understand why I don't want to pursue this.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Go back and read replies 31 through 34 in this thread and you'll understand why I don't want to pursue this.



That seems in conflict with #34. ???

This isn't 'my' thread. It's for learning.
[EDIT: I mean it's not just for me although I may talk as if it is.]
That's where I went wrong with #32. If I said something that would cause anyone not to contribute any advice, suggestions, ideas, or alternatives...I apologize for that. And if I do it again...remind me of that.

I'm hoping I didn't upset anyone but please don't not answer on my account. 
Thanks.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> . I'll watch for taper. (Have that problem anyway as there seems to be about a 0.001 to 0.002 runout along that 1.62".)



Bit by the taper bug. Can be an irritant, I try to avoid it by checking the dia of the stock at the extremes as it gets close to size. A little nudge on the tailstock adjustment, another light cut and so on. If I'm lucky I'll get the taper down to 0.001 or less over a few inches. Problem is usually tightening the tailstock hold down moves it more than desired. So we do the "If I had a Hammer" dance.

Can be done, yet in this case "Weeding the Yard" might be more pleasurable.

2nd time around on the similar task is always harder. Your trying to incorporate what you learned from the first go around testing that new found method.

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv: I remember the discussion on the zombie center. One more of these crankshafts (and there will be) and I'll for it.

Yeah I'd rather fix the crankshaft too. But wondered about bearing.

Robert: Thanks. That's how I saw the runout. I was measuring every once in a while but didn't think there was anything I could do about it once I was cutting. When I get a chance...it's another area of experimentation.


----------



## RobWilson

Looking Good Zee Thm: i see your getting allot of practice turning thin parts and up to a shoulder 
Regards Rob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

RobWilson  said:
			
		

> i see your getting allot of practice turning thin parts and up to a shoulder



Yep. I'm getting real good at making bad parts. :big:

Thanks Rob.


----------



## RobWilson

Hows It go Zee , THE MAN WHO NEVER MADE A MISTAKE ,NEVER MADE ANYTHING. think that's it :big:
Regards Rob


----------



## vlmarshall

Yep, if you ain't breakin' parts, you ain't makin' parts... or something like that.

there's a fine line between Zero and Hero. With CNC, you can kill parts even faster...and all alike.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Rob and Vernon...

Yeah...I have no problem taking my worst part into work, showing it off, and betting anyone they can't make one like it. Ha! They don't even try. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Off topic...

I trammed my mill today and am pretty happy with the results. So I wanted to have some fun (I mean some additional fun).

Made this...







Overall...it was a great experience.
Faced and turned to size on the lathe.
Drilled and reamed the hole.
Mounted the rotary table on the mill.
I couldn't believe how much easier it was to square and center the table to the mill. (Now that I knew the DTI was in tenths of thou...and the practice from last time.)
Moved the chuck to the rotary table.

What I was trying to do was make slotted holes. They are in the pattern used for a quadrature encoder. (A couple of LEDs and phototransistors and you can measure distance and speed in either direction. From my old robot days. Not that I'm going to do that...just wanted this flywheel to be a little different. ;D)

First slot was pretty bad. Plunged then turned the table. After that I plunged the ends and the middle and then turned the table to clean up.

Then back to the lathe...faced again to clean up the edges.
Then parted. Stalled once but kept my pants dry.

Not exactly what I'd hoped...but it was good learning. I'll probably try my hand at filing and sanding and see if I can improve the appearance.

Then I'll need to find a use for it. Have no idea at the moment. :


----------



## vlmarshall

Ok, that one got an "Oh, NICE!!!" from me, out loud. Kid agrees. 

Figures your first RT part would be an encoder wheel. ;D


----------



## mklotz

> First slot was pretty bad. Plunged then turned the table. After that I plunged the ends and the middle and then turned the table to clean up.



Yes! Good onya! You're learning to detect what you're doing wrong and, more important, developing a sense of how you have to modify your approach to correct it. They call that... wait for it ... experience.

When you do larger flywheels, you won't be able to cut the contour in one pass (if you do, the walls of the slot will be rough) so you'll need the drilled holes at the end of the slot to provide a place to put on the next cut increment if your endmill isn't center cutting. Those end holes are also great for reminding you when to stop turning the RT. It's really easy to zone out on a tedious job like that go too far. DAMHIKT.



> Then I'll need to find a use for it. Have no idea at the moment.



Come on, you can't fool us. You want to build a rocking engine. That flywheel looks just about the right size.

Think of the trash talking you can do at work. "Yeah, guys, I was having a problem with the mill engine I'm building so, while I was working out how to solve it, I built this rocking engine."


----------



## CrewCab

Flywheel's looking good ZP 8) ............. nice one feller 

CC


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Come on, you can't fool us. You want to build a rocking engine. That flywheel looks just about the right size.



 ;D Ain't sayin'. I will say that it's 1.25" (spot on!) and 0.175 thick (I wanted 0.187).

Thanks Marv.
Thanks Vernon.
Thanks CC.

One of the few times the picture is better than the actual part. 
You haven't seen the backside! :-\


----------



## vlmarshall

mklotz  said:
			
		

> They call that... wait for it ... experience.
> 
> Think of the trash talking you can do at work. "Yeah, guys, I was having a problem with the mill engine I'm building so, while I was working out how to solve it, I built this rocking engine."



Classic lines. ;D :bow:


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Off topic...
> 
> 
> Made this...
> 
> 
> Then I'll need to find a use for it. Have no idea at the moment. :



Now thats funny, encoder wheel, rev counter, challenge to see which co-worker can rack up the highest score with lung power, oops getting ahead of the game 

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Another drawing symbol I don't understand...
(Or maybe something's missing.)

The top drawing is a partial copy from the drawing set.
Of interest is the 0.13 callout.
I see no obvious taper.

The drawing set includes a line drawing of the finished part.
There are no dimensions but a caliper shows it to be 2x size.
That is, the end is about 0.3 (2x.15) and the shoulder is 0.5 (2x.25).
Using the caliper shows the handle at the shoulder to be .16 (2x.08).

So that's what I don't understand....

It looks like the handle should taper from 0.15 to 0.08 but I don't see how the drawing calls that out. What's with the 0.13?

Help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[EDIT: I found out what that symbol is. The slanted lines indicate the points on the part where the dimension is taken from. (Keep your 'well yeaaah' to yourselves please. ;D).

Having said that...0.13 can't be right. That, or the 0.15 can't be right.] 

View attachment handle0001.bmp


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Made the crank handle anyway.

Having the DI on a magnet behind the carriage is wonderful!

Turned one end down for the handle.
Turned the other end down for a 5-40 thread and chamfered it.
Used my (now trusty) homemade hack saw parting tool to make a thread relief.
Threaded.

Now for the fun part.

Took a piece of aluminum, faced it, drilled, and tapped for 5-40.
Put the crank handle in it. Heres the pic.






Then it was time to filefile.filefile.
Had to be careful. Every once in a while the handle wanted to unscrew itself.
Slow and easy.
It occurred to me that I might have been able to set the compound at an angle and used the lathe to taper. But it wouldnt have worked unless I did something to ensure the handle didnt unscrew itself. Either cut from the other side (dont know how), soldered (but not using aluminum), or loctite or some such. The last two seem a bit much for this tiny handle. AnywayI was half-way in before I thought about it. Too late to pull-out as they say.

Only lost a bit of thumbnailnothing was turningjust slipped.

Heres the result (on the right). (Don't know what that mystery part is on the left.)
Still have to bend it at some angle. Going to wait. I'd rather snap it off later than right after I made it. 






I think Im going to name the mill engine Isabella.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Made the crank handle anyway.
> Turned one end down for the handle.
> Turned the other end down for a 5-40 thread and chamfered it.
> Used my (now trusty) homemade hack saw parting tool to make a thread relief.
> Took a piece of aluminum, faced it, drilled, and tapped for 5-40.
> Put the crank handle in it. Heres the pic.
> Then it was time to filefile.filefile.
> Had to be careful. Every once in a while the handle wanted to unscrew itself.
> It occurred to me that I might have been able to set the compound at an angle and used the lathe to taper. But it wouldnt have worked unless I did something to ensure the handle didnt unscrew itself.
> Only lost a bit of thumbnailnothing was turningjust slipped.
> Heres the result (on the right). (Don't know what that mystery part is on the left.)
> Still have to bend it at some angle. Going to wait. I'd rather snap it off later than right after I made it.
> I think Im going to name the mill engine Isabella.




Ha, that's awesome. Apply it to whichever bit you want. Even " I'd rather snap it off later than right after I made it." 
Two thumbs up. :bow:


----------



## b.lindsey

That looks great Zee. How far do you have to bend it? As to the mystery part, looks a lot like the crankshaft on the rocker engine....hmmm 

Bill


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee Thm: 
Now don't polish up that "encoding wheel" too much; you'll confuse the optocoupler :big:!
Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon.

Thanks Bill. Looks like 60 degrees. Wonder if it helps to warm it up a bit?

Thanks Arnold.


----------



## b.lindsey

Zee, heat should help. I might suggest you turn another piece with a shoulder and a diameter similar to that where the handle will be bent and test it that way first. You wouldn't have to put as much effort into the trial part and I would hate to see you break the finished handle.

Bill


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Vernon.
> 
> Thanks Bill. Looks like 60 degrees. Wonder if it helps to warm it up a bit?
> 
> Thanks Arnold.



From your drawing pic looks like the bend is around 15 degrees. Its a taper on the two flats from 0.15 to 0.080. The 13 number is ?? so took it to mean bend the handle (half inch long?) 0.13 off center which is close to 14.7 degrees (15). Thinking 60 degrees will snap it at the bend point. 

Good idea to make a test piece and see how the bend goes as wlindiii just mentioned.

And what is that mystery piece 

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill. Very good idea there.

Robert: There's a drawing of the 'finished' part along with the dimensioned parts. I used that to get the 0.08. Protractor shows 60 degree. You can also tell from the picture of the engine that the handle has a severe bend. (See the 1st post...it has a link to the picture.) (Matter of fact...the 'book' says to bend the 'prescribed' 60. I didn't find any 60 'prescribed' :-\

Does have me worried. In fact...I doubt very much it will work! I was parting a piece of 1/4 brass and turned it down to a diameter less than 0.08. Then instead of finishing the cut...I just broke it off. Easy.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> And what is that mystery piece



I don't know. That's what makes it a mystery.


----------



## mklotz

You must be filing backwards if it tended to unscrew. (ISTR you saying something about filing backwards for safety.) In the future, you can split the threaded holder like a collet and crank down on it to keep it from unscrewing.

Heat is highly recommended for bending such a small part. Brass is mostly copper and work hardens easily. Don't overheat it or you'll leach out all the zinc and the brass will turn a pinkish (coppery) color. Heat until a dull red in a darkened room. Let air cool or dunk in water if you're in a hurry.

Isabella? Sounds Italian. Is a bella engine, no?


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Bill. Very good idea there.
> 
> Robert: There's a drawing of the 'finished' part along with the dimensioned parts. I used that to get the 0.08. Protractor shows 60 degree. You can also tell from the picture of the engine that the handle has a severe bend. (See the 1st post...it has a link to the picture.) (Matter of fact...the 'book' says to bend the 'prescribed' 60. I didn't find any 60 'prescribed' :-\
> 
> Does have me worried. In fact...I doubt very much it will work! I was parting a piece of 1/4 brass and turned it down to a diameter less than 0.08. Then instead of finishing the cut...I just broke it off. Easy.
> 
> I don't know. That's what makes it a mystery.



Looking at Elmers 43 horizontal, no help there, its silent on that part. Shows that locking lever, ya that's a bend. I tell ya, I'd snap a couple before I got one good. I've spent the past few days cussing at brake tubing bending it for a tranny cooler install and thats easy stuff.

As Miss Cleo would say "I see more pieces upon your Shelf of Learning" 

Think I'll go bend some brass now just to have something to throw into the neighbors yard  See what some heat will do

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You must be filing backwards if it tended to unscrew. (ISTR you saying something about filing backwards for safety.) In the future, you can split the threaded holder like a collet and crank down on it to keep it from unscrewing.
> 
> Heat is highly recommended for bending such a small part. Brass is mostly copper and work hardens easily. Don't overheat it or you'll leach out all the zinc and the brass will turn a pinkish (coppery) color. Heat until a dull red in a darkened room. Let air cool or dunk in water if you're in a hurry.
> 
> Isabella? Sounds Italian. Is a bella engine, no?



Filing backwards or turning in a different direction. Didn't seem to matter. I tried both (all) ways. Didn't make sense to me...just had to deal with it. Keep it slow.

I'd wondered about splitting the holder. It would be like splitting the nuts I used to face some bolts...or that block of aluminum I split and used to trim the bolts for the indicator holders. I didn't think filing would create that much pressure. Certainly would've (should've) done that and used the lathe to taper. (I'll try that if the handle snaps off. ;D)

Goodie..you answered a couple of questions I was thinking about with respect to heating. Thanks for that. Time to make creme brulee!

Isabella...name of a friend's daughter. Don't tell my daughters...I'll get in trouble. (Not that it matters now...I'm going to be in plenty trouble come tomorrow. :big


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Goodie..you answered a couple of questions I was thinking about with respect to heating. Thanks for that. Time to make creme brulee!



Bent like taffy, no heat. Did 3 pieces 1/16, 3/32 and 5/32 rod. Nice and clean.. Go for it.

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Bent like taffy, no heat.



It wasn't you I didn't trust...it was me...so...

Took a piece out of my 'wall of learnings' and turned it down to 0.08 like the handle.
I wouldn't say 'like taffy' (in fact I took pliers to it) but it bent easily enough.

I'm thinking if you go too thin, it would snap instead. Can't try it now...I have a bent part. And before anyone suggests it...I don't have that many parts on my 'wall of learnings' yet. ;D I haven't been at it long enough.

Thanks all. I'll try the handle later...I just want to look at it for a while.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, if you're scared it will break, do anneal it like Marv suggested - in any case it might have work hardened a bit from the turning and filing.
It should bend easily, but (from own experience), when you bend it, bend it ONCE - don't fiddle with trying to bend it back and forth to get it "just right"; then it will definitely break.
If you can somehow clamp it alongside a piece of wire (or something suitable) that's already bent to the correct angle, that will be a great help in judging how far to go.
Hope my 2 cents helps 
Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

It's a good 2 cents Arnold.
After my post I was still thinking about it and what Marv had said about work hardening. I may take my experiment and play with it some more.

Thanks. Oh and nice tip about setting up a reference.


----------



## CrewCab

Some good tips all round Zee, imho annealing and setting a reference so it's a "one shot" operation set the benchmark ............  8) ................... good luck; .......... all eyes are on you now so ................. no pressure 

and ................. Don't forget the video 

CC


----------



## zeeprogrammer

As in maniacal... Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

The crank handle...

So we have two fellows demonstrating how brass can be bent.
Two fellows, and a third backing them up, suggesting annealing.

I suspect annealing would certainly work (the only variable being me).
But if I annealed it ...we would never know if bending would work or if the part was work hardened.

My wife would consider this pic 'divine compensation'...






But the story doesn't end there...no no...we must add insult to injury...or rather injury to insult...thumb slipped and the vise kept a piece of it. Now I really do need a band-aid. :big:

So now we know. Anneal the little booger.


----------



## mklotz

It's a cheap shot but, what the hell, you deserve it...

*I TOLD YOU SO!*

There, I feel better now. 

From the book of wisdom of the Garaj Mahal...

"Experience does not have to be verified before utilizing it."


----------



## vlmarshall

BOOOOO Zeep, why didn't you anneal it?
That little handle was good-looking.

How's your thumb?


----------



## b.lindsey

Well darn....back to square one!! Hope the thumb heals quickly too.

Bill


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well gee whiz...what a bunch of negative thinkers! :big:

Read between the lines...what I said was...

1) I know you guys 'told me so'....but...I didn't anneal it so I could prove you guys know what you're talking about and could say 'you told me so'. So that was for you.
2) I don't doubt there's more like me out there who 'just wanna know'..."would it really break?". I...not you...gave them the direct and conclusive answer. So that was for them.
3) Nyah. And that was for me. ;D



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> "Experience does not have to be verified before utilizing it."



That sounds an awful like "You don't need to see it to believe it."

I'm from Missouri. That's just a load of crap. :big: :big:

[EDIT: P.S. Thumb okay. Thanks.]
[Another EDIT: "I deserved it?" Ow. ]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Speaking of Missouri...

In the past, several of you have tried to get me to grind my own cutting tools.
I made a run at it once or twice but was never satisfied. I just had no real idea of what the target was.

Well that may change.

I bought some pre-sharpened HSS cutting tools.
"Gasp...you did?! Surely you didn't. Tell us you didn't".
I did.

And now I have a reference to compare to. I had no idea these things were that sharp. Durn near made a matching wound on my other thumb.

So...now that I have something to 'see' and understand what sharp is...I can go about grinding.

Thank you. Thank you very much.


----------



## rake60

No losses Zee.
The lessons we remember longest are those self taught. 

Rick


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Well gee whiz...what a bunch of negative thinkers! :big:
> 
> 
> 1) I know you guys 'told me so'....but...I didn't anneal it so I could prove you guys know what you're talking about and could say 'you told me so'. So that was for you.
> 2) I don't doubt there's more like me out there who 'just wanna know'..."would it really break?". I...not you...gave them the direct and conclusive answer. So that was for them.



Even annealing may not help. Sorta crank handled shape

Tried one with not heat, snapped right in two

Tried 2 with portion near base 0.080 extended, something for the bend to form in. Annealed, both cracked at the base.

Last try with longer section of ).080 kept the heat applied, cracked also.

At this point I be inclined to try a different shape or form a radius at the base to force the bend, ease the stress at the base.








Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the heads up Robert.

Did you heat, cool, and then bend?
Or, did you heat and bend while hot?

I was thinking about bending it while it was hot...using some pliers or needle nose...any suggestions how I might do that without putting marks on the part? I'm going to look for some pliers that don't have the ridges on the end.

Thanks.

[EDIT: P.S. You're supposed to be working on your ramstock/tailstock thingy. I can't remember...sorry.]


----------



## vlmarshall

Interesting... now I wanna try this, too. What type of brass?


----------



## rake60

Another thing to consider.
Be *SURE* it is brass! 
If it is bronze you would be very lucky to bend it
without a fracture.

Rick


----------



## shred

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I was thinking about bending it while it was hot...using some pliers or needle nose...any suggestions how I might do that without putting marks on the part? I'm going to look for some pliers that don't have the ridges on the end.


Check out Bogstandard's drilled pliers tip. Most excellent devices for holding/bending round stock.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon and Rick...

Well it looks like brass, feels like brass, tastes and smells like brass...but what do I know?

360 Half Hard Brass is what's on the part's list. That's also what I ordered. (I can't remember if I used the part from the kit...or the part I ordered.)

Thanks for the tip.

Shred: Thanks very much. I'll look for them.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Did you heat, cool, and then bend?
> Or, did you heat and bend while hot?
> 
> I was thinking about bending it while it was hot...using some pliers or needle nose...any suggestions how I might do that without putting marks on the part? I'm going to look for some pliers that don't have the ridges on the end.



Need to cut the thread on the ram piece and do have most of the change gears, so of course the one I need is the one I dont have. Waiting for the E Flay delivery.


Got the bend. Used a 1/8 drill bit, snapped it in 2 and ground down the end at an angle. Feed that into the shoulder portion of the handle to form a radius between the shank the section that would have the screw thread. Left a portion of the shank (about 0.130) at the 0.080 dia. Thinking is, the material to be bent is trapped within that section, no hard corners for the material draw to pull upon. sanded it smooth to avoid the "Scratch to Crack" bit which the first attempts did crack at.

Held one end with needle nose and stuck piece in flame till section to be bent was dull red, another pair of needle nose used to bend the piece slightly. The pliers draw the heat away from the part quickly so it was heat to dull red bend a tad and reheat. About 5-6 bend sequences and POOF!







Only took 5 tries to get one piece bent >)

Robert


----------



## arnoldb

Zee,it would appear that this piece presents a bit of a challenge  - the last post from Robert might be spot on on how to do it 

Also try to get the finish on the section that have to bend as good as you can - any score mark on that, and that's a weak point where it will snap.

If you don't have the pliers with the holes as suggested, a piece of pipe that just slides over the "handle" part can help to give you a better "handle" on things.

Shucks, you guys on the other side of the world get to play while I have to sleep....

Regards, Arnold

Edited to add: Welcome to HSS usage - now you also need a good oilstone, or even better, a couple of diamond laps to get those edges honed


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert...thanks for the experiments. As Arnold said...looks like a challenge. Very good tip about removing scratches.

Arnold...good tip on using a tube. I'll have to hunt around and see what I have. I suspect I need to be careful about placement of the edges.

I have diamond laps...whether they are good or not...the right type or not...well we'll see.


----------



## mklotz

If it still breaks when you attempt to hot bend it, you might want to consider making the part from steel instead of brass - more strength and less work hardening.

If you insist on brass, then it might be easier to make the thing in two parts. A tapered handle with a thin skinny projection that can be bent easily and soldered into a hole in the part that has the 5-40 (?) thread.

Harbor Freight pliers are mostly junk but they do have the advantage of being cheap. When you have a discount coupon pick up a couple pair of their bottom-of-the-line needle nose and keep them for hot work and customization - grinding the tips for specific applications. I have a pair of their extra long (~10") needle nose that have totally annealed tips now. Add a coil spring around the handles so they'll grip a part on their own if you relax your grip.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Good tips re pliers.

I'll probably take a run at heating and bending in brass. (Not because of 'instructions'...but I think there's more to learn and I don't think I've taken it far enough to convince myself it can't be done.)

From what Robert has found and my little experiment, I'm pretty suspicious that a scratch allows the brass to part more easily. So I'll be careful on the finish.

Then if that fails (aw now don't think like that :big, it'll probably be a two-parter.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'll probably take a run at heating and bending in brass. (Not because of 'instructions'...but I think there's more to learn and I don't think I've taken it far enough to convince myself it can't be done.)



Quick drawing of the shape that got me a good bend. The radius, short extension of material and a smooth surface (and I know better ) gave the best result.

Bend er a little at a time. Takes longer to fab up a new piece than the few minutes the bend takes.






Many shall be awaiting your results

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

The results... :rant:

Well that's just lousy. I've snapped three now. Robert - a few more than that.

Heated heated heated. Never got cherry red. Maybe my propane torch isn't big enough.
Aw c'mon...the part is only 1/8 by 3/4.
Got maybe 35 degrees...then came apart.

I wonder how many newbies have tried this engine, failed, and given up the hobby?

I detest crap. :rant:
I don't like buying it.
It stinks. Rof}

No...I'm not going to make it a 2-piece. It's just a nut to keep the forward/reverse lever from moving around. I'm just going to take a piece of 1/4"...turn down one end and thread for 5-40 and knurl the other end.

And yes...I'm pretty :redface2:. Stinking crap.

Robert...I appreciate the experiments...but the likelihood that the part will break again...after much work...isn't worth it.

Oh...and I did slit the bit of rod I used to hold the handle while I filed and sanded it. That was worthless too. Kept trying to unscrew itself. I'm thinking the direction of forces weren't in the directions needed to close it.

Dad blasted @#@$%%@# and @^&#38;#$.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

It's the morning now. Cruised the forum. Soothed the soul.

In reviewing all this I realized it was a mistake to try bending the handle now anyway. The handle is used to tighten down the forward/reverse lever. The threaded portion goes through the lever and into a tapped hole on the column. You want to wait until the thing is put together and the handle tightened down. Then bend it. If you bend it first, it may end up sticking up rather than down. So the sad part is going to be...you build this engine and at the very very last...the very last...the very last operation...you break the last part. We'd be talking bummer then.

In further reviewing this...I had great success bending the handle after turning it down. No filing. So I'm thinking I'll try that. (Not now. When it comes time.) Then just file the end to crown a little. I think it would be a more appropriate fit/style than a knurled nut.

On a side note...I found out what that symbol was in the drawing in reply #73. I'll edit that reply and attached is the drawing.

The slanted lines indicate the points on the part where the dimension is taken from. (Keep your 'well yeaaah' to yourselves please. ;D).

Having said that...0.13 can't be right. That, or the 0.15 can't be right.



View attachment handle0001.bmp


----------



## mklotz

A knurled lock nut wouldn't look right. Knurling is mainly for finger-sized things. Some sort of lever arrangement would be prototypical.

I made this engine as my maybe third or fourth. I knew I didn't have the skills then to bend that damn thing so I just made a lock nut with a 1/16" drill rod cross-bar. You can see it in the picture below.


----------



## vlmarshall

Well, if it's just a lock, make it a nut. 

  Screw a threaded stud into the frame. Turn another handle, but instead of the cylindrical and threaded bits at the bottom, make a spherical section. Then, chucking on the handle, set up at whatever angle you want this thing, mill two flats, and thread a hole through the spherical bit. You'll end up with what I think looks like a tiny cast part.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> A knurled lock nut wouldn't look right. Knurling is mainly for finger-sized things. Some sort of lever arrangement would be prototypical.
> You can see it in the picture below.



I agree. See previous post. And thanks for the pic. Nice to see the actual thing rather than a drawing.

Vernon: I'm just no good at visualizing from text. Maybe show me next time on YIM?

So one approach is as I said in previous reply....just turn it down, bend it, crown it.

Second approach...two piece job. Stud (nut) with thread in one end...goes into column to tighten lever. Put a threaded hole in the stud at angle. Thread one end of second piece (handle)...and screw it in. Is a 1/4" diameter stud big enough? Is 5-40 thread strong enough?

Third approach...use cross-bar per Marv's engine.

For all approaches...wait until engine is down so I can see how far the stud turns when tightened..then mark where bend, tapped hole, or hole is made so handle is down rather than up.

Thanks all.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The results... :rant:
> 
> Well that's just lousy. I've snapped three now. Robert - a few more than that.
> 
> Heated heated heated. Never got cherry red. Maybe my propane torch isn't big enough.
> 
> Robert...I appreciate the experiments...but the likelihood that the part will break again...after much work...isn't worth it.



Was fun on my part, bending round stock is one thing bending a formed piece, quite another. Dull red is about as hot as I got it with propane. Will try another but will add more to the shank portion to be bent. Material has to stretch and any change in diameter at the bend seems to trap the stretch within the narrow section. Exceed the elasticity of the material and she breaks. Had good luck with heat and bend a few degrees 5 or so. Heat again and bend 5 or so, maybe 10. But little by little it got there. 

I can use the practice, I'm sure this type of operation will come up again in the future, Plus the failures give me something to launch into the neighbors yard 

Robert


----------



## mklotz

> For all approaches...wait until engine is down [sic] so I can see how far the stud turns when tightened..then mark where bend, tapped hole, or hole is made so handle is down rather than up.



Just a little preemptory hint here. You can alter the angle at which the handle reposes by calculating how much to take off the shoulder that seats when the handle is locked down.

Assume a 40 tpi thread. In one revolution it moves one thread pitch, 1/40 = 0.025". Say I want to move the handle through 30 deg. I need to shave off

(30/360)*0.025 = 0.025/12 ~= 0.002"

You can use washers too but that's just plain tacky. No self-respecting model engineer would do something like that.


----------



## mklotz

Another nuance...

I wanted to use this engine as a demo when I lecture to young people about how steam engines work. One of the hardest things for them to understand from drawings or animations is how a slide valve works.

In addition to the brass steam chest cover called out in the plans, I made one of 1/16" plexiglas - you can see it in the photo. That way the valve motion is visible. I find that people, even the adults, are really intrigued by this bit of demonstration.

When you make the brass cover (you'll need that when you run the engine on steam), think about making a plexi cover at the same time, thus capitalizing on your setups.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Robert.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Just a little preemptory hint here. You can alter the angle at which the handle reposes by calculating how much to take off the shoulder that seats when the handle is locked down.
> 
> You can use washers too but that's just plain tacky. No self-respecting model engineer would do something like that.



That would be 'two' preemptory hints :big:. Thanks Marv.

I thought I saw something 'odd' about the steam chest cover. Great idea! Thanks.


----------



## ariz

zee your posts are usually long, and I'm not an english language man, so it is difficult for me to follow all of them 

but sometimes I read them, and I wish to compliment with you for your perseverance. it will be rewarded finally 

I also see that sometimes you want to verify an approach, instead to follow the experienced man that give their suggestions... I too do the same :
in my case, it is for laziness: I search a shorter way to do something, but results are always negative
now I have almost learnt that there aren't advantages in doing so ;D

but I'm going out the thread, these are only thoughts in a late night, I apologize


----------



## zeeprogrammer

ariz  said:
			
		

> zee your posts are usually long...



 ;D yeah...I get that at design reviews at work too... ;D



			
				ariz  said:
			
		

> but sometimes I read them, and I wish to compliment with you for your perseverance



Thank you. That means a lot to me.



			
				ariz  said:
			
		

> but I'm going out the thread, these are only thoughts in a late night, I apologize



No need. Your post means a lot to me. Thanks again.


----------



## Foozer

The Lever

Made one that didnt snap so figured a second try was in order to verify the results.

First up was to shape the piece. Did same as first, similar to Zee's sketch with the addition of a 0.200 by 0.080 neck.







Used a 0.125 drill bit shank ground down at an angle to form a radius between the neck and shoulder. It does chatter but did the job






Used 220 and 400 paper to smooth the piece out, with a quick brush against a buffing wheel to remove any chatter, scratches. Piece ready for heat.






Held the long end with a pair of vise grips (they have a hole ground into the jaws to grip better with less force. Heated the piece with a regular propane torch. Sorta a dull red color that turns silvery, at this point with piece still in flame used some flat nosed needle nose to grap the lever end and with even pressure bent the piece just a bit. Slow and even bending, as soon as the needle nose touch the piece the heat gets drawn away, youi can see the color change so keep the piece in the flame and work slow

*First bend* just a few degrees To take the photos I had to dunk the piece in water after each bend and restart the heat process. As the end product was sucessuful I be sticking with this approach






*Second Bend* Few more degrees






*Third Bend* Few more






*Final Bend* Looking good Top piece is one I did a few days ago, bottom one is the result of this adventure.

As close a shot as my camera will allow, but the bend is clean and contained within the neck portion






It can be done, just allow the material to bend on its own good time while applying the encouragement. To much force or try to bend it too fast and, well, as ZEE puts it, much colorful words will be heard 

Robert


----------



## kvom

A MAPP gas torch is hotter than propane; might work better.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert...good progress and good success. Can't say the same for me.

kvom...thanks...I'll need that tidbit in future.

Well today is pretty lousy. Didn't start that way...but it got bad fast.

1/2" square by 1" piece of brass in a 4-jaw chuck.
From what I can tell...I got it trued.
Drilled through .159 and tapped 10-32.
Turned it around...got it trued again.
Drilled 0.36 near to depth.
Used a 3/8 end mill and milled to depth.

Looked pretty good. I was pleased.

Some of you may recognize the part from that bit of description.
Doesn't matter though.

Squared up the vise in the mill.

Couple of parallels...laid the piece down.
Started using a 1/8 end mill.

Milled down to 1/16 of bottom then towards other end.
Looked fine.
Moved back to first end and over to edge.
Turned off machine and took a look see.
Little voice said 'hm'.
Started going to other end again.
Parallel came shooting out...heard a clunk.
Big voice said 'poop' (in so many words).

Investigated why little voice said 'hm'...

Two possibilities (so far)...

1) Downward pressure on the end caused the end of the parallels to push down...raising other end. Whole thing tilts. Next cut comes in at a relative angle. I thought I'd had things tightened down pretty well. Maybe not.

2) Mill is not in tram. I recently trammed the mill. Was I wrong about that? Could trying to cut the cast iron on the Spindex taken it out? Looking at the part...the angle seems severe enough that it would have been obvious the mill was out.

Going to check the tram. Wondering if I should remove the (supposedly square vise) and check...or stick a piece of sheet aluminum in and try flycutting.

I think I'll try the flycutting. Need to learn that anyway.

That, or go to bed and curl up.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thought I'd explained what happened...then I WILL go to bed and curl up.

Started to remove the end mill so I can investigate further.

Little voice said "That seemed a little loose".
Big voice said "Poop (or something to that affect)...I didn't tighten the end mill!?"

So I'm thinking the end mill simply worked itself out a little at a time.

 :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
I'll continue investigating to make double double sure that nothing else was done stupidly incorrectly.

In the meantime...nighty.

 *club*


----------



## Groomengineering

Ha! Don't feel bad, I'm becoming convinced the mystery part is impossible! 

Attempt #1 - Part flopped over in the bandsaw at the end of the cut, saw proceeded to keep cutting halfway down the length.

Attempt #2 - Cut it off twice and still too short!

Attempt #3 - Used 3/8 milling cutter to bottom hole, wallowed it out to .4??. Remembered why I hate fb holes.

Design change - drill/ream through and use a cap.

Attempt #4 - Milling out corner, milled in fine switch to across. Hmm.. that looks funny. The part is now sitting at about a 20deg angle. ??? Not enough to hold on to I guess.

Attempt #5 - Left it on the bar. The hole is a little off center and the millwork looks like c**p but I'm calling it good for now. :-\

I hope it gets easier from here 

Cheers
Jeff


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Groomengineering  said:
			
		

> I hope it gets easier from here



Oh it will. What people need to remember is that it's not a smooth slope. Starting out it's fraught with dips and valleys (aka learnings).

Then fewer dips and valleys. But they're still there. Which is good. Otherwise there's no more learnings...and no more fun.

Thanks Jeff.


----------



## mklotz

> Attempt #4 - Milling out corner, milled in fine switch to across. Hmm.. that looks funny. The part is now sitting at about a 20deg angle. Huh? Not enough to hold on to I guess.
> 
> Attempt #5 - Left it on the bar. The hole is a little off center and the millwork looks like c**p but I'm calling it good for now.




There's some smart a$$ on this forum who keeps chanting the mantra...

NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO DO SO.

I generally ignore him but maybe he's really on to something.


----------



## arnoldb

> Oh it will. What people need to remember is that it's not a smooth slope. Starting out it's fraught with dips and valleys (aka learnings).
> 
> Then fewer dips and valleys. But they're still there. Which is good. Otherwise there's no more learnings...and no more fun.



You said it spot-on there Zee. And yes, sometimes things happen which you are not happy about. People might laugh at you. Turn that "laugh _at_ you" into a "laugh _with_ you" and life becomes more fun  - I've had that, welding a bolt-mounting to a steel pole for a car shade-net for a friend of mine. I welded the heck out of it, so with big fan-fare I removed the Vice-Grip from the part, and it fell to the ground. All the welding was on the pole, and none on the bit I wanted to weld to the pole. I'm still getting teased about that, but have since welded a lot of things for that friend, as well as helped him to learn to weld himself. We still have a laugh over it; money cannot buy experience, and humility comes for free.

As to the dips and valleys - those are between mountains. The higher the mountain you climb, the further the valley is below. If you are at the mountain top, and want to reach the next higher mountain top, you either have to take a journey back down through the valleys and then up again (i.e. more learning  ), unless someone with a helicopter is prepared to just take you over to the next one - no learning, no experience, and nothing to tell the grandkids - except "it was cool to have a ride in a helicopter".
The helicopter would be nice, but think of the lost experience - and fun. Sometimes learning/doing things the "hard" way, has hidden benefits, which in due curse provides a reward of it's own.

Apologies if this is OT, too philosophical and just a plain nuisance - just some personal learning that might be usable...

Regards, Arnold

Hmm, while I was writing up this lot a much respected person also posted a reply - stick to the mantra!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> There's some smart a$$ on this forum who keeps chanting the mantra...
> NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO DO SO.



Don't be bothered by him Jeff...but you can get a lot of good information and help from that smart a$$....an occasional laugh too. Really. Very helpful smart a$$ guy. ;D

Arnold...check out my most recent abyss valley here...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5855.0

Some people might give up here...but I won't...I might change my name though.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

(Let's see if I can hit 3 for 3 tonight.)

Did some flycutting tonight. I did it once before...just playing around...this time it was serious. Is my mill in tram?

Well I think so. Here's a pic...






Hatch marks!

However...if I move in the other X direction...the hatch marks are barely visible, if at all. Trammed or nearly trammed?

And what kind of surface finish can I expect? Brand new (pre-sharpened) cutter. But the surface was a little rough.

Feed rate seems to make a big difference. Slower rate gave better results.

...course I seem to live in a world where .87 - .40 is .37...so what do I know?

I think I'm good on the tram. Let me know if you disagree.


----------



## steamer

Looks good Zee!

The finish could be better, but I think its feedrate not tram

I would say you tram is pretty good!....slow your feedrate way down and try it.

It could be different going one way or the other, as you need to remember...everything is made out of rubber.  Everything will move and if off ever so slightly one way, it will show up when you put some cutter force on her and she flexes a little. That would explain why it's changes with direction.....bet you can't even measure it....but you can see it.

Dave


----------



## vlmarshall

Wow, I missed a lot on here today. Like Steamer says, your mill appears to be trammed. Try a slower feedrate, or sharpen your flycutter tool with a small tool nose radius.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dave and Vernon.

I did notice that slowing down made the finish better.
But the last run seemed pretty slow.
Raises the question...how slow is slow without going backwards?

The tool is very very sharp (I bought a pre-sharpened one) but I don't think there's any radius on the tip. That may explain a lot.

I'll play some more.


----------



## mklotz

The flycut surface looks good although a very small radius on the tool tip will, no doubt, improve the finish. I prefer a small diamond sharpening stone for doing such radiusing. The real experts can do it on a powered grinder but I haven't developed that level of manual finesse yet.

Why is that piece of stock so short? Has it been cut from the parent stock already? Tsk-tsk.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The flycut surface looks good although a very small radius on the tool tip will, no doubt, improve the finish. I prefer a small diamond sharpening stone for doing such radiusing.



I have the 300 and 800 grit from Grizzly. Here's the 300.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/H7608/images/

No idea if this is good...will work...or whatever. Can only try unless someone suggests otherwise. I think I'm correct to say that I want to stroke the tool sharp edge first (i.e. sharp edge leads) to avoid creating a burr. What I'm unsure about is size of radius, how to know what the size is, how to make it round. (I heard that...practice practice practice.)



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Why is that piece of stock so short? Has it been cut from the parent stock already? Tsk-tsk.



Now just hold onto that 'tsk-tsk' until you get the answer young man. ;D
The piece is from my box of play pieces that I 'made' when I first got the lathe and mill...just to try the equipment and make my first ever cuts in metal.
When required or useful...my box of 'learnings' can also serve as practice pieces (as the one did the other day for the 'handle').


----------



## mklotz

That stone looks great. Use a rolling motion of the tool on the stone to develop the radius. Only a very slight radius is needed. I don't want to try to suggest a numerical size for the radius since I do it "by eye". My suggestion is to develop the smallest radius you can and then mount the tool and test it. You should get a smoother surface on the cut. If not, make the radius larger and try again. I doubt that you'll need more than that one iteration to converge on something that works well.

Thanks muchly for the "young man". I needed that. Last night I had some young buck in his thirties address me as "sir" when he asked me for directions. The "golden years" do indeed suck. 

I'll shut up about stock length now. Nevertheless, keep the mantra in mind.

When I was first starting out, I would write out a process sheet for each non-trivial part I was going to make. On it I would describe such things as:

how the part was to be held for each operation
how referencing to previously machined features would be accomplished
what tooling would be used
what clearances needed to be checked
etc.

It was amazing how often I'd back myself into a workholding corner. Then I'd have to go back and erase the first step - part off stock .xx oversize - and readjust the operation order so I could keep a handle on the stock until late in the sequence.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ah good. Thanks for the tip on the tool. ;D Yes...I'll do the iteration...I have plenty of 'play' pieces.

The 'sir' was the quickest way to get me on the wrong side when the boys came round for the daughters. A close second was "Mr. Phillips" (that's my Dad!) but they had little choice. First name basis was deadly.

I do need to start my workshop manual. Right now I'm relying on memory. Not a good idea...especially considering the 0.1 fiasco the other day.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Had a chance in the shop...

Rounded off the tool tip and took a couple of runs at flycutting.
How do I know it's any good? What's small? There's 3 dimensions to this. Too many!

On one pass the chips that flew off were hot...and the finish was...well it reminded me of pills on a sweater.
Second pass...other direction...not as deep...almost mirror finish but no hatch marks.
Third pass...not as deep...hatch marks...but not the mirror finish.
(Each pass being the opposite direction.)

Here it is...hard to see I think...I tried putting the light at an angle to highlight it.
You might also notice the edges are pretty rough. I don't know what that means.

Feed rate was 'slow' (a relative term). Spindle rate was...well I didn't check.






I need to find a local mentor so I can offer up my prize and see what they say. Sort of like the cat that drops the bird at the doorstep. "Well? What do you think? Great right?"

PS. Be kind in responses. A fellow member suggested I post this. I wasn't going to. If you hurt me...I'll have to hurt him (twice as bad). ;D


----------



## vlmarshall

Aluminum? Use coolant. WD-40 or such will help a bunch.
No hatch marks in the opposite direction? Your leading edge was a bit lower than the trailing edge. Part flat enough for you like that? leave it alone and skim in that direction when finish matters. I do it at work on 20hp Haas machines, you can too.
1000 rpm ok for your machine, no vibration? 400-500 is as slow as I'd try if 1000-1200 is too much. 3-5 IPM and whatever depth-of-cut works on your mill, a single-point flycutter has a tendancy to chatter a bit more than a facemill... .005" finish pass?
A lot of the numbers depend on the rigidity of your mill. A 3" flycutter at 1000 rpm is too much surface speed for a cut with no coolant. 

There, that didn't hurt, eh? Don't go hurting your fellow members. ;D

You need one of those nifty sliding feed-n-speed charts.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon. Lots of good help there.
This is only 3rd time flycutting. So learning a lot. Will be practicing more too.
Guess that 'fellow member' doesn't have to worry so much. ;D


----------



## vlmarshall

http://www.niagaracutter.com/techinfo/common_mat/slideorder.html


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, I'd be happy with that finish. Aluminium can be a bugger to get a nice finish on - even bits of swarf coming off the primary cutting face and getting trapped in the rear cutting face can cause the finish to be destroyed.

Have a look at the cutting tip on the flycutter - if there is a bit of aluminium "welded" on there, you definitely need to use some form of lubricating coolant, or reduce speed.

From your photo, the machining marks will be easy to clean off - a couple of rubs over 320 grid emery with oil, then over some 800 grid, then a bit more over 1200grid, and a quick burnish with metal polish on a clean cloth & you'll have a real mirror finish.

Regards, Arnold


----------



## kvom

> the edges are pretty rough. I don't know what that means.



Most metals will form a burr at the edges. You need a deburring tool to clean them up (and to prevent cutting yourself when hendling the parts).


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon. Site requires me to sign up and give info. I'll check around some more first.

Thanks Arnold. No 'weld' on the tool..thanks for reminding me.
It's a play piece (learning piece) so I'm not so worried about removing tool marks. So long as they're 'supposed to be there' and 'will clean up'...then I'm happy too.

Thanks kvom. I guess I just hadn't noticed the burrs before...or they were smaller.


----------



## vlmarshall

Ha, was that penny in the photo last night? Ok, I saw it, but I didn't even think about the scale of the photo. 





> Thanks Vernon. Site requires me to sign up and give info. I'll check around some more first.



Fine, I requested a chart. I'll mail it, ( or one of my old grubby ones), to you when it arrives.

Just one. *A* chart. Not MANY charts. I'm not getting into the Guinness trouble again. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hm yeah...I hadn't realized how the scale looks. The penny was up close so I'm thinking it's making the part look smaller than it is. It's the same part from the other night. Still...I should use a bigger part for this.

One grubby chart is fine.
That's probably more than the promised beer*S* I'll ever see. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Managed to get in the shop and stay there long enough to do something.
Not much...but something.
Went better than I'd expected...

Three pivot pins for 'Isabella'. Each has (and is supposed to have ) a slightly different length 'shank'.
I'd like a better finish...but I'm pretty happy with this.
Only one screw-up (pun). Was threading one and it twisted off.
Real happy with the slots.
In the back you see a collet I made to hold the pins for the slit saw.
That was according to instructions.
However, instructions also used this in the lathe to put a radius on the screw head.
That's the second time I've tried that. Doesn't work. At least not in a 3 jaw. The collet doesn't close enough.

Don't know why there's a 1/16 hole in the side of the collet.







Here's another shot of the pins. Oh...and another mystery part! And look...it has a 1/16 hole in it. Hm.






Wife goes on a short trip in a week or two. I hope to modify the Spindex while she's gone. I'd rather not have any interruptions or distractions while I do that with the angle grinder. Never used one. Got ear plugs, full face shield, gloves, and so on.

So that was fun. Success is fun. So is failure learning.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

??? It's a mystery. ??? And what's a Rocker? ;D
No no...don't trouble yourselves guessing.
I'm the only one guessing here. :


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Don't know why there's a 1/16 hole in the side of the collet.



I Know, I Know, but i tait-a-telling, ah vent hole! Right?

Robert


----------



## vlmarshall

Ha, nice work, even the mystery part... and the worm hole in the side of the collet...which, if my eyecrometer is calibrated, looks to be .517" from the end... strange.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, didn't you know you were supposed to thread that hole for a teeny grub screw to help overcome problems with the screws turning in the collet when machining their heads ???  
 :big: :big:

Looking good

Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert...yeah that's it...a vent hole...yeah. 
Vernon...almost...but it is 0.537 from where I referenced. Which is almost 0.02 from end of collet. 
Arnold...I can't see grub screws that small. 

So anyway...crumbs... 

Was looking at the drawings to see what to do next...
Hopefully something a bit more interesting.

Had an issue earlier when milling out a hole and my 'drinking' partner (that is...very dry drinking partner - okay, he's not a drinking partner...just some guy) mentioned the possibility that the tailstock was off true from the headstock. I remembered a post that showed two centers nose to nose.

So I tried it. As I said...crumbs.

1) My 2nd live center (to replace the damaged 1st center)...is damaged. The tip is slightly chipped from an earlier fiasco with a crankshaft. For those of you with short memories...don't bother yourself. (Should still be usable though.)
2) Even so...I could see the tailstock is a bit higher. So drilled/reamed/milled holes are coming out bigger than desired.

Mini-lathe 5278 from ToolsNow...just like the one from Harbor Freight or Grizzly.
[EDIT: I mention that because I see no way to shim the headstock. That, and the hope that someone will say..."No problem...all you gots to do is...". But with my luck...it'll involve making a tool or using flames.]

How to fix? Or drill/ream/mill smaller?

(The real answer...for me...is a better lathe...but that's in the future.)

Crumbs.


----------



## vlmarshall

No, you don't wanna shim the headstock, and it's better that your tailstock is too high, than too low. It's always easier to REMOVE material... Actually I seem to remember a recent post on here about tailstock adjustments.

...and after a quick check, the opinion there was the opposite of mine. So, don't listen to me, take off your tailstock and look at it.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ah you lost me Vernon. I'll check the recent post...I remember it...but it seemed like shimming the headstock was a no go because it couldn't be done.

I won't comment on whether I should listen to you or not ;D.

Okay...looked at my tailstock. Looks like a tailstock. Feels like a tailstock. Smells like a tailstock. Must be a tailstock...that sits too high.

Mystery parts showing up at your place too huh? Ah ha ha ha ha ha. Ah ha ha ha.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Haven't managed anything worthwhile on the mill engine...but another mystery part showed up...this time with a note!






Crummy note...some apology about having to work on an ill-adjusted mis-treated lathe. 

Said something about lousy tool bits too. Warned me the tool would dig in. Pointed out the little 'gutter' at the inside corner of the top 'ring'. Said the part got knocked out of true and had to hack-saw it off the parent stock.

Crummy note writing, mystery part making, jerk. He should've fixed the lathe rather than make mystery parts.

I threw the note away before I could take a pic of it and show you all. Sorry. Sort of glad I didn't...people might think the handwriting was familiar and accuse me of something...like making trouble.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I threw the note away before I could take a pic of it and show you all. Sorry.



My, my... You are certainly a very cleaver and sneaky fellow, Zee. Yes you are.
No wonder you have such a notorious reputation. 

DW


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> My, my... You are certainly a very cleaver and sneaky fellow, Zee. Yes you are.
> No wonder you have such a notorious reputation.



What?
Wait!
It's the truth!
It wasn't me!
It wasn't.
I can explain.

Okay then...soon as I get my camera back...I'll set a trap and catch the villain.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Haven't managed anything worthwhile on the mill engine...but another mystery part showed up...this time with a note!



A step pulley for a miniature lathe? 







			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...People might...accuse me of something...like making trouble.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Now that the lathe is cleaned up and adjusted and I have a workable Spindex (he says)...I can get back to the horizontal mill engine.

Naturally, I had to add to my wall of learnings...






Sorry for the blurry picture...as I mentioned on another thread...wife stole my camera and gave me her old one...she didn't bother to give me any manuals and I haven't found the macro setting yet.

If all goes well, the item on the left will be the tilting slide. First steps are done in the lathe...now it's time for the Spindex. Lathe work was straight-foward...well it would have been had it not been for me.

The item on the right was the first try. I stupidly followed the directions before thinking it through. Instructions said to face both ends and trim to length. Then turn down to diameter. Well, bringing it to length would leave maybe a 1/4 inch to hold in the chuck. That won't do (and I don't have anything else to try). So I hacked off a piece of 12L14 a bit longer than the one that came in the kit. Faced and turned then faced the other end to length.

No mystery part showed up. I guess the guy was busy doing other things.

I hope to get to the Spindex work soon.


----------



## Foozer

No mystery part? HMM

Well, could be worse, playing catch on the winter wood pile. Something else kept me away from that summer task. Addicting isnt it 

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Poop. As in Dad' Poop.

As I said previously...time for the Spindex. Well maybe not.

Seemed overly hard to insert the collet.
Then, when I got the thing in and the part mounted, I gave the arm a rap to tighten.
Wrong hammer. Nice chunk of covering came off. :-\ No problem really. But it was brand new. Sniff. Time for the rubber mallet.

No matter what I did...I couldn't tighten it enough. Drawing said .187 +0.000/- 0.002. I came in at .185. Could not tighten it.

Got out my earlier crankshaft...it measured .187. Again...really difficult to get the collet in...and when I did...the crankshaft wouldn't fit. Too tight! Finally got it. Tightened down. Several raps with rubber mallet...finally tight. Now wondering if it's tight enough. 0.002 makes a big difference I guess. But then it shouldn't be dimensioned as -0.002!

Not happy. Is the Spindex/collet thing any good? Do I have to remake the part...again?

Rats. This is what I get for thinking all day long of coming home and getting busy to make something. Need to lower my expectations and be glad I can touch my machines. I'm going to go eat.

 :rant:

Oh...I said something earlier about avoiding rants. Well...too bad.

[EDIT: Sure. Of course I tried again. Turns out the .187 part isn't all that tight either. So just how do you do this? How much/hard does one rap? How do I get the part tight enough so it would move when I go to mill it? I really don't want to get to Grandpa Poop level. Messy.]


----------



## mklotz

I hesitate to risk insulting your intelligence but have you ensured that the slot in the collet is aligned with the anti-rotation pin in the Spindex sleeve?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I hesitate to risk insulting your intelligence but have you ensured that the slot in the collet is aligned with the anti-rotation pin in the Spindex sleeve?



You haven't got what it takes to insult my intelligence Marv.
You're not low enough. :big:

Fair question...I've worked in customer service before.

But yes...I'm sure. Otherwise the collet sticks out pretty far. It's actually the bit that has made it difficult to get the collet in.

I see that the spindle(?) (the thing that screws over the collet) can only screw on up to a point. If the length of the collet plus spindle is longer than the tube...then no tightening will be had. Could the collets I bought not be the right ones for this Spindex? I bought both from Grizzly.

If true, I have two remedies...contact LMS and see what they say, modify (shorten) something to fix it, or 3, purchase another something.

Thanks Marv.


----------



## GailInNM

On my ancient spindex, the friction between the draw tube and the body made it difficult to get the collet tight enough. I polished it a bit and that helped. I put a washer on the draw tube made out of 0.010 PTFE (Teflon) and it helped a lot. I have thought about making a roller thrust bearing to go in place there. You might need a thick washer there to effectively shorten the drawtube. Be sure to put a little lube on that interface.
Gail in NM


----------



## mklotz

Trust me. If I really wanted to insult your intelligence, I could do it. Ask John Stevenson.

But I'm not out to do that. When I was starting out I did a lot of really dumb things that I don't enjoy recalling - except to help someone else. Not knowing about the anti-rotation pin was one of them.

It's not unheard of to get a bum collet. Try some of your other collets and see if they operate properly. That will help localize the problem - collet or spindle.

It may also be worthwhile cleaning the threads on both the collet(s) and the tube. I normally use a (handheld) brass wire brush rather aggressively though an ordinary steel wire brush is probably ok. Inspect the threads for burrs, lodged swarf and/or mechanical damage. If you can find one of your collets that works, note the thread engagement depth and see if the offending collet(s) fall short of that.

On my mill the pin was a bit too long. With the tube out of the spindle, test that your collets can freely seat fully in the nose taper.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

:wall:

Pardon me while I smack my forehead.
Sorry to have wasted your time Marv and Gail.

As I said..."it's as if the length of the spindle and the collet is too long for the tube".

Spindle has an arm at the end. Move the arm in. Duh.

I'll just go crawl over here for a while...curl up...suck my thumb...question yet again why you all bother to read me.

Thanks...and sorry.

But happy guy again!

Marv, you posted while I was writing. Thanks for the additional tips. I'll check it out.
Oh...and I do trust you Marv.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Dont worry Zee, we all do it.
Hey at least you have a spindex to have trouble with.
I am pricing them now, I have been looking at CDCO, the prices seem to be too low for any quality but time will tell, I am ordering a few things to find out.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Krown Kustoms  said:
			
		

> Dont worry Zee, we all do it.



Maybe. But I take it one step further and involve everyone in my moments of greatness. "Look! Look everyone! Look what I did!". :big:

That spindex looks just like mine but mine says PF70. I have no idea what that means. Mine was $43 I think I've seen it for $39. Shop...then get.

Thanks -B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thinking about deleting my boo-boo post and let everyone wonder what you all are talking about. :big:

Hm. How to use an indexer? I dunno. :shrug: Let's see...36 divisions on the wheel is 10 degree per. I need 0, 90, 180, and 270. Goodie. I dont have to figure out how to use the housing's 10 holes for 1 degree increments. (At least for this job.)

Mounted the spindex and squared it. I'm assuming 3 things here...

One: The front of the base is square to the spindle.
Two: The bottom of the base is square to the spindle.
Three: I haven't blown through today's allotment of luck.

(Well four...there aren't any more assumptions.)







Flatten top, turn 180, and flatten again.
Measure between flats.
Subtract desired length and divide that by two.
Thats the distance to move the mill by.
Periodically, cut a little, rotate by 180, cut a little, rotate by 180, move cutter.

Of course the caliper doesnt fit. Periodically move by 90 so measurement can be made.






Do the same for the other two opposing sides.






Well! I think I like this spindex (as predicted by several of you).

Next step is to slot it with a slitting saw.
I think I've used today's allotment of luck and seeing how it's always the last operation that does me in...I think I'll wait.


----------



## kvom

While getting the Spindex to work might be a worthwhile project in itself, milling that part with a square collet block held in the vise woule have been a lot simpler.


----------



## vlmarshall

Quiet, you! ;D


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Very nice, I think I need one now for sure.
-B-


----------



## mklotz

> Spindle has an arm at the end. Move the arm in. Duh.



I'm lost. I don't understand what you were doing wrong. Please explain. Mine doesn't have anything I would term an "arm" so the quote above makes no sense to me.

Kvom is right. This job could have been done more simply with a collet block. However, doing it with the Spindex gives you a chance to learn how to operate the Spindex as well as proof the mods you made to it. Give Zee a break here. However, Zee, you're really really going to have to buy some collet blocks. They're handier than a shirt pocket. 

It's probably too late now but while you had the Spindex set up on the mill, you should have done a test piece to prove that you understand the vernier angle setting. A good exercise would be to cut a pentagonal tenon on the end of a piece of scrap. The required angle sequence (0, 72, 144, 216, 288) is straightforward and the result is easily verified with the Mk1 eyeball.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi kvom. Thanks. Yeah I thought (hoped I knew) that there would be better methods. But I'm trying to follow the instruction manual that came with the kit for two reasons. I suspect the manuals are designed to help teach various methods and/or equipment. (That, or a way to get you to buy more equipment. :big So I want to learn that equipment. And two..for the other poor souls like myself who buy this kit and think/hope they can do it. That's why I don't mind anyone suggesting better methods...adds to the learning.

[EDIT: Just saw your post kvom using the collet block. I can see why they would be very handy.]

Vernon...sigh. :big: (A little inside joke there.)

Marv. Thanks. Here's a link to Bogstandard's thread on modding the spindex. It has a picture of the disassembled unit. Spindle on the bottom with the arm attached to the left.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2681.0

So at the expense of reminding everyone of my incredible 'duh' moment... ;D, the arm needed to be adjusted 'in' to effectively shorten it. 

Collet blocks. I'm sure they're in my future. ;D [EDIT: See previous edit. ;D]

It's not too late. Not sure I'll do it now though. (Should really...it would be appropriate for this thread. But... Ah, I'll think on it. I'm sure there will be opportunity.)


----------



## mklotz

First some terminology...

That black tube in Bogs' picture is called a drawtube because it draws the collet into the taper at the front of the spindle (the cylindrical bit that rotates in the body of the unit - above the drawtube in the picture). The "arm" attached to the drawtube I would term the 'drawtube crank' although others may have a more accepted name for it.

So, you didn't realize that you had to turn the drawtube crank to rotate the drawtube to pull in the collet and cause it to close against the spindle taper? Is that about right?

Did you remember to lock the spindle before making your cuts? Remember what I said about remembering to do that?

Have you tried using the vernier yet? You need to. It's operation is less obvious than the drawtube. Try it before using it in anger.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> So, you didn't realize that you had to turn the drawtube crank to rotate the drawtube to pull in the collet and cause it to close against the spindle taper? Is that about right?
> 
> Did you remember to lock the spindle before making your cuts? Remember what I said about remembering to do that?



I guess you're right Marv (see previous posts about intelligence) :big:

I did realize that the drawtube had to be rotated to pull in the collet. So no...you're not right at all. The crank was not in the right place. Too far out...effectively making the drawtube too long. The length of collet plus drawtube was longer than the body so there was nothing the crank could 'draw' against. Unit came that way. I had to move the crank in closer and shorten the overall length.

Yep. I remembered to lock the spindle. No fair asking me to remember you remembering me. ;D Speaking of remembering...remember what I said about jumping to conclusions? ;D

For other people wanting to use a spindex...do not use the numbered disk (sorry...I don't have the nomenclature) to rotate. Use the crank or grab the tube. If the nut holding the disk is not tight enough, you risk rotating the numbered disk and not the tube...and then you're off...and ranting.

And luckily...no one has to ask how I know that. I thought it all on my little own. :big:

Thanks Marv. I do like learning the correct nomenclature and jargon.

[EDIT: The remember remembering was intentional. :big:]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I can only hope I learned tonight.

Pretty much nothing went right.
Ran the slitting saw too fast.
Squirted oil...even coolant...didn't see the caliper back there.
Caliper is no longer happy.
Still haven't gotten the mill head right...likes to drop on me.
Slot is too big.
Slot is at an angle.

On the plus side...the width of the slot is the same throughout.

Most of what happened I can understand and know what I did wrong. (Another plus!)

But I don't know why the slot ended up an angle. I would think it would take a downward (or upward) force on one end. Could too deep a saw cut cause it?

Could the spindex not be accurate? Do these things typically need some modification or calibration? In other words to get perfectly vertical (or horizontal for that matter), the pin is not at the housing 0 but somewhere between 1 and 9 (inclusive)?

I make the angle to be about 1.5 degree over 0.69" (an error of about .018).

No pic. This part will never see the light of day.

I can have a drink now. (A plus.)
T is coming home tonight. (A plus.)

Starting to look for any plus I can...

I'm handsome...wait...no I'm not...rats...a minus. I'll stop now.

It's a do over. ;D I'm good at that. (A plus.)


----------



## vlmarshall

Sounds like you had a day full of learning, Congrats! :bow: 
You've accomplished a lot more than I have today.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Zee, have you checked your mill head to see if it is square from front to back, 
It sounds like the saw blade is going through as if the top of the lead edge is cutting and the bottom of the trail edge or vise versa.
That might also contribute to an angle cut.

I have a grizzly mini mill and always have trouble with the head wandering on me, I have made a few mods, I have seen most of them allready posted here.
I converted it to CNC and sometimes I dont see the wander till too late.

Im not sure if I would attempt the smoke box door Vernon cut on his build until I do a few more mods.

-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon...thanks. Yeah...there's a plus or two in there.

-B-..I'll check the Y again. I had trammed the mill a few weeks ago and checked the Y. I hadn't used it much since then. 1.5 degree would seem like a lot of movement. On the other hand, the first cut was kinda hard and maybe the head moved or tilted somehow rather than the part. I did lock the Z every time. I got the same angle top and bottom so whatever happened had stayed that way throughout the operations. I can't do anything about the part...but I'll go over the mill and do some testing.

Thanks for the suggestion. It's worthwhile for me to check.

At least my boo-boos seem to be new ones rather than repeats. Maybe I'm getting better. (Yep...always looking for a plus. :big


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Didn't get anything done today...still hurting a little from yesterday. But my 'real' excuse is that wife came home from her trip. Right.

Thought about the tramming question from -B-...Not sure it's about tramming. The part itself (the edges) seem to be perfectly square...it's just the slot that's off. If the mill was out of tram I think the part would also have been out. Maybe the saw and/or arbor? Don't think so. I think the part rotated in the spindex. That's my first 'professional' opinion.

Should know more this weekend or when I have time to relax and be careful. At least be careful. At least have a go. Wife is leaving again this weekend.

I'll also blame 'nameless', whose initials are VM, for not having enough machining time tonight.

What? Hey! A mystery part showed up...







Doesn't look like the fellow has a very good countersink. It's probably 25 years old and dull as me.


----------



## arnoldb

:big: You were cheated Zee :big: - that mystery part needs a pin in that hole ;D

And sorry to see about your milling/slotting problems... Have yet to try my hand at a milling machine. (well, _maybe_ _if_ the bank manager's in a good mood it's due in the next couple of weeks...)

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> :big: You were cheated Zee :big: - that mystery part needs a pin in that hole ;D
> 
> it's due in the next couple of weeks...)



Hm. Yet another mystery. I had wondered where the mystery guy was getting his material. Now I know. Some brass has gone missing. Too bad for him. I have no piano wire. :big:

You're getting a mill! Great! (You might have said elsewhere...but my memory is pretty selective.)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Success!

I have a tilting slide now. It's the one on the right.






Quality of pic isn't as good as I'd hoped but the part looks pretty wonderful in my hand. Required turning, milling with spindex, and slitting with spindex. I was pretty nervous towards the end. Also important...this showed the mill is in pretty decent Y tram.

If you look at the first part on the left...you can see on the bottom that the right wall is a bit thinner than the left. The opposite is true at the top. The part had rotated. You can also see that the part is somewhat discolored. This was due to heat.

Lessons...

I think the part may have rotated for a number of reasons. Too deep a cut, too fast a feed, too fast a spindle speed, and spindex not being locked. (Marv had questioned the lock and while I'm sure it was locked for sawing...I can't say the same was true for every operation of milling. I think there was a greater chance during milling as it would have had the greatest force and leverage to rotate the part.) I tend to go too hard too fast.

The discoloration was certainly too fast a spindle speed. It was surprising just how fast it happened. Even saw some sparks which probably tells you just how lousy I did.

So far I'd say my total "do-overs" are running 90 to 95% with about 75% "do-agains" and 15 to 20% are "do-yet-agains". There's an insignificant percentage of "do-yet-once-more" but that was with my very first engine (not the Launch). And I'm not counting the evil crank...that was very much an experiment ;D.

Most of my boo-boos are from doing something new...and these kits are somewhat designed to teach...so they're chock-full of new. So over time...the percentages should improve. If they don't....I won't bother you anymore :big:

[EDIT: A big thank you to the guy who owes me beer. He was a big help. He still owes me beer. :big:]


----------



## mklotz

Nice job, Carl. I would have done that part as an assembly...and indeed did so on my version of the engine you're building...but that's just me.

It's not clear to me why you needed to use the Spindex at all.

Take cylindrical stock and mill opposing sides so remaining tenon is width of slide.

Stick stock in lathe and turn cylindrical shaft to required length and diameter.

Part off from parent stock. Reverse and face slide height to size.

Stick in mill vise and mill slot in slide.

Don't sweat the do-overs, etc.. They're a small price to pay for the opportunity to know that you can do something that 95% of the people can't do and 90% can't even understand.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hm. Yet another mystery. I had wondered where the mystery guy was getting his material. Now I know. Some brass has gone missing. Too bad for him. I have no piano wire. :big:



Me got a piano, lots of wire in it. Wonder if the Bride would notice? Ah , sigh, guess its better to just turn it down from stock then risk decapitation 

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It's not clear to me why you needed to use the Spindex at all.



Thanks Marv. Yeah I figured it could have been done several ways. I believe the kits are designed to be 'teaching kits', and while we can (and have) discussed the merits of some of the methodology, they at least introduce me to some equipment and alternatives. For example, had I already had the Spindex mounted...then this was straight forward enough (he says) and I wouldn't have to mount and square the vise. I appreciate your suggesting another method (i.e. assembly). This is the 2nd or 3rd time I've wondered about the amount of work and waste to turn a bar down from a large diameter to such a small diameter.

Which reminds me...I'd like to thank you and several other members for help on cleaning up and adjusting my lathe. It made a big difference. I used the center gib screw on the compound to achieve more rigidity. I manually fed rather than power fed and was very happy with the finish.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> Me got a piano, lots of wire in it. Wonder if the Bride would notice? Ah , sigh, guess its better to just turn it down from stock then risk decapitation



I'd find my lathe and mill, not to mention myself, out on the pavement if I touched our piano. I've tried to sell it in the past and even the kids have threatened me. (Doesn't help it was a wedding present ;D)


----------



## arnoldb

Very well done indeed Zee Thm:

If you can get a good manual finish, then your lathe/mill is getting adjusted in properly, and you are developing your "feel" . Anyway, half the fun (for me at least) is overriding automation and doing a good manual job. There are some cases where I use power feed on my lathe, but always after testing a bit manually; then I know I'm not causing undue wear on the machine by using power feed, and that everything is safe.

Hope you get some piano wire soon!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

I'm going to work on the Slide Block next. The piece that goes into the tilting slide I just did.

In the meantime...this showed up...






Looks like he has the same problem I have..."do-over-itis".

Poor soul...I hope he has piano wire and screws...'cause I don't.

 Rof} If I do say so myself.  ;D


----------



## arnoldb

Hmmm, looks like you have one of the metal-munching little devils hiding in your shop :big:

Better find a bit of piano wire & a small screw to feed it quick - before it gets worse ;D


----------



## Tin Falcon

> Thanks Arnold.
> 
> I'm going to work on the Slide Block next. The piece that goes into the tilting slide I just did.
> 
> In the meantime...this showed up...


Hey I thought I was the only one suffering from _scrapitis rockerous_ You may or may not have noticed my rocker engines are not up and running yet seems like I am able to make scrap faster with the cnc now LOL. things WILL fall into place !!!! for both of us....
is it scrapitis or scaposis ? Hmmm well anyway... life and the machining go on.... 
Tin


----------



## vlmarshall

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> ... seems like I am able to make scrap faster with the cnc now LOL.



Haha, YES! The fine line between Mass-Production and Mass-Destruction (or "hero" and "zero") is crossed with a single keypress. ;D


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Yeah thats funny, my mill dosent care if I accidentaly told it to cut .250 instead of .025.
It will try it anyway, so on top of scrap I need new tooling.
I had a similar problem like that today.
-B-

Just remember Zee, after it is all said and done you have at least one usable part to continue with.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold, Tin, Vernon, and -B-

Went to work on the sliding block for the horizontal mill and found this...






Apparently the poor guy couldn't wait for the screws I ordered to show up and decided to make his own. Looks like he was making a collet so he could slot the screw. The crumb broke my one and only 2-56 tap!

He must have jinxed me because after milling the sliding block, I broke my one and only 3-48 tap!






I'm beginning to think I know this guy.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Went upstairs for a cup of coffee and when I came back....there was this!






I'm sure I must know this guy. And...I'm thinking we're related as I find myself suddenly cured of 'rocker-itis'.





Found a pack of 5-40 filister head screws next to it. Apparently the guy ordered the wrong ones and took one of my 4-40 shcs.

Well...since this guy was kind enough to cure me (and leave the engine for me to play with)...I'll critique it!

The pluses:

1: It runs. (Hey...trying to give the guy a break...you haven't read the minuses yet.
2: Decent looking base.
3: Nice to continue the base design on the cylinder.
4: Did I say it runs? (Well? What does he expect?)

The minuses (oh boy):

1: The slots could have been better on the flywheel. Nice try making an encoder though.
2: the fitting doesn't fit. That is, it doesn't screw down all the way.
3: Probably should barb the fitting or otherwise make it more difficult for the tube to slip off. (Actually fits pretty good though.)
4: Wall and bottom of cylinder is too thin.
5: The wall's thinness might explain why the bearing (and therefore flywheel) wobbles. That or the guy didn't use a reamer but a drill.
6: The brass screw would have looked better than the black one.
7: The shcs doesn't look as good.
8: He was lucky too. Looks like the bore of the cylinder comes pretty close to the end where it was turned down to rings. A little more and the end would have fallen off.

Now that my 'rocker-itis' is cured, maybe I can get more done with the horizontal mill instead of being distracted with mystery parts showing up.

 ;D


----------



## kvom

I bought a pack of 10 2-56 taps a few weeks ago cheap. PM me your address and I'll mail you a couple.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Well now I have "rockeritis"
I am going to look in my paper work for a cure.
-B-


----------



## mklotz

Nicely done, Zee. (I may have to copy the flywheel patterning.) Many of the "minuses" are merely cosmetic issues. The important thing is that you built a working engine and learned a few things doing so.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much kvom. No need to trouble yourself. I have to place an order to replace a 3-48 tap, a 1/16 slitting saw (the tilting slide fiasco), and will use this as an excuse for other goodies...hm...collet blocks.

-B- Enjoy! The treatment is not so bad.

Marv...Thanks. True enough about the cosmetics. I'm mostly disappointed in the bearing hole. The flywheel was an experiment. But it all has added to my experience.


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
 The guy that built that engine for you didn't do to bad :big: I can't watch the vid at work they block that here. I'll see it tonight when I get home
Nice Job
Tony


----------



## Foozer

See the Rocker-itis Fairy paid ya a visit.

Bought time all them mystery pieces were put in order

Nice Job, that calls for a double shot celebration 

Robert


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, Well done Thm:

Hope the fairy cured you of the rocking ailment :big: - did you find out where the little monster got piano wire from :big: :big:

And don't be too critical on the fairy; there are many more positives than negatives to it; after all, your Rockeritus seems to be cured (for now ;D)

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## CrewCab

Congratulations Zee ;D  ;D

Now you can spend a bit of time on the day job :

so ..................... what's next 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





CC


----------



## vlmarshall

Congrats, Zeep! I'm glad to see all of your ( shop elves', rocker fairies', whichever ) hard work paying off.

I'll echo CrewCab's question, which loco project is next? ;D


----------



## Krown Kustoms

I'm with them, what's next Zee.
By the way, how long is the cylinder on that engine, my plans are a bit bland.
I have 1.020 but that sounds odd.
They dont directly have the length, you have to do a little math to get the total
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Tony, Robert, Arnold, CC, Vernon, and -B-....thanks very much.

Arnold...the crumb took one of my old 1/16 drill bits and snapped off a piece in a vise for the pin. I found the remains on my desk!

What's next you all ask? Why I'm still working on the 'Horizontal Mill Engine From Kit'!

I was just reporting the interruptions from that crumb. ;D

-B-...the overall length of the part on the drawing is 1.02". The crumb made it a little longer so he could add the 'rings' on the tail. The actual length of the 'cylinder' is 0.4". (And thanks for reminding Marv that I subtracted 0.4 from 0.87 and got 0.37! :big.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Thanks Zee
I have all the materials and going to start on it tomorrow to cure the "rockeritis".
I have hit a design issue on my build and need a break from it.
The last thing I built to get a break, broke my lathe.
I will get to use it on the rocker since I have no square stock. (it makes me feel better to use it since it broke my lathe, maybe it will pay for itself)
sorry it is a stainless fly cutter if you havent gathered that.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

While waiting for some goodies to arrive...I thought I could do the base...

This will be my first go at flycutting (other than the trial after I trammed the mill).
Naturally, I must include a boo-boo...er lesson.

1: I milled the edges.
2: Milled the notch.
3: Flycut.
4: Drilled and counterbored the holes.

I suspect the order of operations is wrong. In particular, drilling the holes was hampered by having the notch. I should have drilled, then flycut, then notched. If that is still wrong...please feel free to throw a tomato (or two...or three...).

Here it is after flycutting. At first I was worried because the cutter was cutting on only one side. But then I noticed that the whole part was not being cut because it wasn't yet perfectly flat. This is after the 2nd pass and I think I'm happy with the tram.






Here it is after drilling. 4 of the holes are counterbored. (Thanks Marv for the reference to the Enco counterbores.) I used layout dye and eye-balled with the center drill.






Here is is after sanding. I get somewhat impatient with sanding so it could have been better. On the other hand...I can't help but play with it so it's going to get dinged anyway. I have some polishing wheels for a drill and will try that later.






Overall...I'm pretty happy. Looking forward to the next 'lesson'.


----------



## vlmarshall

Excellent. Congrats, Zeep! I'm glad to see more Mill Engine parts, especially when you churn them out as effortlessly as you did this one. You'll be running this engine and building a locomotive before you know it. ;D


----------



## arnoldb

Well done Zee. Sometimes a "brushed" finish has advantages, and can look good on a finished engine, so leaving it with the brushed finish is an option as well.

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## kvom

Looks good to me. I would have flycut before milling the notch so as to minimize the interrupted cut, but no matter.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon...but I wouldn't say effortlessly (as you're about to see). Yep...a locomotive is certainly in my future (unless wife gets tired of washing my pants) :big:

Thanks Arnold. Good tip. I haven't looked yet. but would anyone suggest a way to get an even brushed finish?

Thanks kvom. Yes it matters. As I mentioned, I should have flycut first, but the additional reason to minimize interrupted cut is good.

And now...

Poop.
And we all know what that means.

Sorry for the lack of pics...I guess I was optimistic.
I was working on the column.

Flycut both sides, then milled the edges to square the thing up.

Then drilled the hole for the bearing.
My mill is too short (or the reamer is too long) to ream so I first drilled one size under and then drilled to size. The bearing fits very well. Happy.

Then drilled the hole for the tilting slide.
Again, drilled one size under and then drilled to size. The tilting slide fits very well. Happy.

Then drilled and tapped the 5-40 hole for the infamous and evil crank handle. Happy again.

Now for the two 6-32 mounting holes in the bottom.
Drilled the first one...happy.
Drilled the second one...uh..no, didn't...part way through snap. I have a bad habit of going to fast too hard.

It's late so I'm stopping but I think it's salvageable. I can move the hole over (and on the base) and make another.

Overall balance is on my side..mainly because of the success with the bearing and tilting slide holes...(not to mention the finishes on the column)...so I'm going to bed happy.

Yep. The poop didn't stick.


----------



## vlmarshall

Darn. At least it's repairable. Sounds like everything else went well. 



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Yep...a locomotive is certainly in my future (unless wife gets tired of washing my pants) :big:



Building an elevated track will help you avoid those grass-stained knees. ;D


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Hey Zee, 
The only way I han think of for an even finish is sand blasting.
Use glass bead for a light matte, white playground sand for a little more texture.
I use both all the time, use a respirator on the white sand its very bad to breath the dust.
-B-


----------



## Kermit

I have used fine grit sandpaper in a random orbit sander on aluminum and brass before. The aluminum looked marvelous this way under lights. The tiny circular marks overlap, and would give the surface a three dimensional depth and sparkle too.


Have to do this on a flat surface and tape it up if you bend it to a shape.


----------



## mklotz

> Now for the two 6-32 mounting holes in the bottom.
> Drilled the first one...happy.
> Drilled the second one...uh..no, didn't...part way through snap. I have a bad habit of going to fast too hard.



Time for another one of my all caps dicta for your shop notebook...

YOUR WORKING SPEED SHOULD BE INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO THE TIME NEEDED TO REMAKE THE PART.

You've discovered another one on your own... Make the most complex part first so that any errors you make can *perhaps* be accommodated in the part to which it mates. Can't make that one all caps since there are many, many cases where other considerations will override it, e.g., sequencing dictated by a requirement to have holes align.

One of the hardest things for any of us - not just novices - to learn is planning the order in which parts are manufactured. There are a wealth of things to consider and not all of them are strictly mechanical. Your personal psychology plays a strong part in the process.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, for an "even brushed" finish: if the part is flat, some coarse (180 grit?) emery paper on a flat surface, with some even strokes in one direction, without turning the part. For aluminium, scotch brite works well. Then there is also "tank turning" - many methods for that. For round pieces, sometimes the "finish" turning is fine for concentric brush effect. For longitudinal effect, some effort is needed, but a lot less than to polish a piece. 
I like things very nice and shiny, but have had more comments on brushed finishes than I thought - mostly related to the fact that finger marks and tiny scratches does not show up so easily on the surfaces.



> One of the hardest things for any of us - not just novices - to learn is planning the order in which parts are manufactured. There are a wealth of things to consider and not all of them are strictly mechanical. Your personal psychology plays a strong part in the process.


Marv, *that* is the truth portrayed in vivid living colour!


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Then drilled and tapped the 5-40 hole for the infamous and evil crank handle. Happy again.



Evil Crank handle  naw piece of Cake Good Crank Handle


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon:..."Quiet you!"

-B-:... Thanks. I've come across a few references to 'sand blasting' on this forum. I'm thinking it's another area to investigate.

Kermit:...Looks like some experimentation is in my future. No surprise there.

Marv:...Thank you. Good reminder for the next poor fellow (in addition to me). Can you imagine? The instructions have the base first and then the more complex part! Well we've had that discussion about these manuals before...but I'll remind the next poor soul..."just cause the instructions say to do it one way doesn't necessarily mean it's the way to do it". (And not being able to help myself... ;D...the same is true when listening to the advice of any teacher.)

Arnold:...Thanks. Like Kermit's suggestion...I need to do some experimentation.

Robert:...Actually, I didn't name it the 'Evil Crank Handle'....to protect the guilty, I won't say who did. Yeah...you had better luck with it than I did.

Wife got home today...so not much time. Over lunch (hee hee) I managed to move the hole and tap it. But I won't modify the base until I finish the column. I need to mill some angles. If successful...then I'll redo the base. If not...well after a good cry...I'll redo the column.

Thanks very much all.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Yep. Poop.

While I managed to drill and tap a new hole...I messed up the next operation.
Simple mistake...I mixed up the cut and the dimension. (No no no...not an error in measuring this time...the cut was exactly right...just in the wrong place. :big

Although I can probably make the column work...it just doesn't look right.
So it's a do-over. But that's the only down-side.
Too bad too. That was the first time I used the angle blocks to get a 45 degree angle...and it looked good!

Upsides include...
a) I'll make it better.
b) I won't (hopefully) have to drill a new hole in the base.
c) I maintain my ratio of good/bad parts at near 50%.
d) I'll learn more.
e) It builds character.

I can only hope that I keep fooling myself into believing those last two up-sides. :big:

I will say too...I seem to be getting better at using the mill...and enjoying it more as a result.


----------



## rake60

Keep at it Carl it does get better.
Then just about the you feel you have mastered it
you'll junk parts in the same day and realize the metal
is the *STILL* the boss. 

Machining is very much like playing golf.
How can pi$$ing yourself off on a regular basis
be so much fun?
scratch.gif

Rick


----------



## Deanofid

rake60  said:
			
		

> Machining is very much like playing golf.
> How can pi$$ing yourself off on a regular basis
> be so much fun?
> scratch.gif
> 
> Rick



Well, one thing about it for sure, you can play golf 'til the cows come home, but no matter how much you whack that little ball around, you'll never end up with a running engine.

"I can hit a ball into a little cup..."

Yeah, that's very nice. I can make an engine that runs on fire!



Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Rick and Dean.

Well...so today I got back on the tricycle and worked on a new column.

I flycut the two large sides then milled the edges square (I can only hope). Then drilled and tapped the two mounting holes. This time no broken bit.

Then drilled the hole for the bearing. I used the same procedure as before...stepping up in size with the drill...but this time the bearing is loose. I'm hoping some loctite will take care of that...or...a good buddy suggested using a ball bearing or my uglied live lathe center to 'shrink' the hole.

Then I drilled the hole for the tilting slide. Nice fit. Unfortunately I countersunk a little deep but that won't matter and won't be seen.

Then I drilled and tapped the hole for the 'good' crank.







I milled the top of the column and then went for the angled side. As suggested by the instruction manual, I used a parallel to line up the scribe. (There were two parallels to get to the line, then I removed one. The other is held up by two parallels.)

Does anybody see the 'oops' that I'm going to discover? There's actually two of them.






Here it is after milling down the angle. I was really happy with it. I got it to meet the edge perfectly. And then I took it out of the mill and saw the two boo-boos.






The one face (where the 5-40 hole is) was milled 1/8 too long! :rant: This was exactly the same mistake I made the other day! I could not believe I'd done it again! I was so careful and remember distinctly turning the crank 8 times for 0.5". And then!!! And then I saw the two 45 degree chamfers on the top were not the same. :rant:I had made the same mistake yet again! Unbelievable!! :rant: :rant:

Okay okay. Even though it was ugly...I could still use it. I went to angle the other side. As I lined it up in the vise I looked up. There...sitting pretty...was what I thought was the bad column. It wasn't. It was the good column. With a properly milled face and two perfect 45 degree chamfers. Rof} Rof} I'd put the angle on the bad part. No wonder the boo-boos looked so familiar.

Sheepish just doesn't describe it.

So...put the good part in and did the two angles. Here they are...'ugly' on the left, 'good' on right, 'bad' taking the picture.






All cleaned up...






What I have so far...






That's right...I still have some work to do on the crankshaft/bearing. The crankshaft used to fit but I think I damaged it somehow. It should only take a light hit with sandpaper.

Geesh...that was one valley I was in for a moment. :big:


----------



## vlmarshall

Wow, that's REALLY starting to look like an engine. Congrats! I won't comment about your angles on the wrong part, since I was "there" when you did it. ;D

That column looks good after you've cleaned off the layout dye and deburred it.
Don't think of the countersink for the tilting slide as being "too deep", call it a pocket for lubricating oil.. or something.  ;D


----------



## CrewCab

Well done for persevering Zeep  ............. looking good :bow:

CC


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Good comeback, sometimes mistakes are good.
I have been dying to say that.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon: Thanks. Yeah...feature.
CC: Thanks.
-B-: Glad I could help. :big: But yes...it's amazing how much quicker and better the 2nd (3rd...4th...) time can go.

Working on the eccentric now. Which one I don't know...1st, 2nd, 3rd... ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I should have said 'trying to work on the eccentric now'...and I now know it's not number 1. 

I faced and turned the larger diameter on one side then flipped it and put it into a 4-jaw chuck. The instruction manual suggested putting a block of metal in a tool holder and using it to back off .156 from the part and then adjust the 4-jaw to bring the part up to the stop block. I had a couple of problems with that. For one, taking care of backlash was difficult. For another, during the process of moving the part over, it fell out. But that was because I should have been adjusting the other two jaws to account for the slack being created as the part moved from center.






So I used the DI instead.  I mounted it on the compound and slowly, carefully, moved the part over by .156. I constantly tightened and checked the other two jaws to keep the part centered. I did that by just rotating the chuck to either jaw.






In this picture you can see the problem. The eccentric is too far in (about .08) from the outer edge. The two edges should have been the same. I was stumped as to what I'd done wrong. I would bet a free coffee that I measured off 1.56 and kept the other two jaws equidistant.






I went ahead and drilled and reamed thinking (hoping against hope) that the part would still be usable. I don't think so. This picture also shows another little problem I need to avoid. I don't know how much pressure I should apply to the 4-jaw to make sure the part doesn't fly off. You can see that I overdid it. Not only is the part marred, but there's a dimple on the face. You might also see that the center of the hole is barely .156 away from the center of the larger diameter. It should be .22 (hm...why is my calculator saying .44 / 2 is .2?...hm...a reset fixed it...but that's disconcerting.)






But I'm really stumped about being off on the eccentric. As I said, I measured pretty carefully. Odd that the error is about 1/2 of the .156 but I can't see how that plays into it. I checked the diameter and it is the required .44 and the outer diameter is .75.

Well...still keeping the ratio of bad to good at about 2:1. I think the only parts I haven't redone are the 3 screws and the base.

Oh...before I forget...poop. :big:

I saw that kvom!! Yeah...maybe I should have this thread moved to "Mistakes, Blunders, and Boos Boos". :big:


----------



## mklotz

My method for making eccentrics...

Face off the end of the stock.

Mount the stock face up in the mill and center under the spindle using whatever technique floats your boat - DTI or edge finder and Osborne (see my page) maneuver. Use the dials or DRO to offset the stock by the amount of the eccentric offset. Use a small center drill to make a small marking hole.

Remount stock in 4jaw. Now, using a pump center, get the small marking hole running true*. Machine the eccentric to required diameter. 

With this technique, the accuracy of the eccentric offset will be as good as your mill dials/DRO - no faffing about trying to bodge offsets on the lathe.

--
* I've published this procedure for centering in the 4jaw several times on the forum but, so you won't have to search it out, here it is again. The last couple of paragraphs discuss the making of eccentrics in more detail...

		  Centering Work in the Four Jaw Chuck

Probably every machinist has his own pet way of doing it. My technique works
for me. Take whatever is useful and modify as you see fit.

To easily center work in the 4J, you'll need to make yourself two tools. 
First, make a dedicated holder of some sort so you can mount a dial indicator
(DI) on the tool post (or directly to the compound) with its axis
perpendicular to the spindle axis. Adjust the DI so its plunger is vertically
aligned with the spindle axis. An easy way to do this is to put a pointed tip
on the DI plunger and align the point to a dead center in the headstock. The
idea is to make something that you can drop into place, already aligned, and
lock down in ten seconds or so. Leave the DI permanently mounted to this
holder. A cheap import DI (<$15) is fine since we'll be using this only for
comparative, not absolute, measurement.

While you could use a conventional adjustable magnetic DI holder, I strongly
recommend that you make a dedicated mount that is easily installed and removed.
A general maxim of machining is that you'll be much more likely to do something
'the right way' if setting up to do it is quick and simple. If it isn't you're
much more likely to try some half-a$$ed setup that doesn't work and ends up
damaging the tool, the work, or, worst of all, you.

The second tool to make is a clone of your 4J chuck wrench. We're going to be
adjusting two jaws at a time and it's infinitely easier to do if you can move
both jaws in and out in concert without having to swap the wrench from hole to
hole. It's another example of the maxim I mentioned above. The clone wrench
doesn't have to be anything fancy. Machine a square tenon to match the
existing wrench on the end of some suitable stock, and drill for a press-fit
cross bar. Use your existing wrench as a guide for dimensions. I've found
that, if there's not a lot of room on the back side of the lathe, making the
clone somewhat shorter than the supplied wrench is a good idea.

Ok, now for the procedure. Mount the work in the 4J and roughly center -
either by eye or by using the concentric circles scribed into the face of most
4Js. Snug the jaws down so the work is held securely. Turn the chuck so one
jaw is at the nine o'clock position as seen looking from the tailstock down
the spindle axis. Use the cross-slide to bring the DI up against the work and
reading about the middle of its range (e.g., about 0.5" on a 1" DI). Turn the
scale on the DI so its needle indicates zero. Now swing the chuck through 180
degrees. Unless you've got an impossibly good eye, the DI will now read
something other than zero. (For an example, let's say it reads 0.038.) Turn
the DI scale so the zero is halfway to this reading. (Move the scale so the
needle points to 0.019.)

Now, insert both chuck wrenches and adjust the jaws so the DI needle points to
zero. Swing the chuck 180 degrees and check the reading - it should be close
to zero.

[Aside: If the part you're centering has the same dimension in both jaw axes
(i.e., it's not rectangular), the DI zero you established above will also be
the zero for adjusting the other two jaws below - another advantage of this
technique.]

Repeat this entire process for the two other jaws. [What we're doing here is
treating the 4J as two two-jaw chucks. We can do this because the jaw pairs
are orthogonal and, to first order, adjustments of one pair will have very
little effect on the setting of the other pair.]

If you've been careful, the total runout on the part should now be only a few
thou. Depending on your esthetics and the part requirements, this may be good
enough. If not, repeat the entire process until the runout meets your needs.
After centering, check to ensure that all the jaws are clamped down tightly. 
It's easy to leave one loose. If you have (left one loose), you may need to
rerun the centering procedure after you've tightened it.

With this procedure, you should be able to center something to +/-0.001" in
ten minutes on your first try. With not much practice, you can get that
number down to one or two minutes. Soon your three-jaw will be gathering
dust.

One of the most common uses of the 4J is for drilling/boring offset holes in
eccentrics (i.e. cam drivers for model engines). In this case, you aren't
centering the stock itself (as we were above) but rather need to center the
location of the hole.

First centerdrill the location of the hole in the milling machine. Mount the
stock in the 4J and roughly center this centerdrilled hole. [A fast way to do
this is to use the pointy end of an edge finder held in the tailstock drill
chuck.] Now you need a PUMP CENTER. This is a longish rod (mine is ~10"
long). At the tailstock end is a spring-loaded female center. At the
headstock end is a rigid male center. The male center goes in your
centerdrilled hole. The female center is supported by a dead center in the
tailstock and the tailstock is adjusted to lightly compress the spring. The
DI is made to bear on the rod near the male center. Using the procedure
outlined above, adjust the jaws until the DI shows little or no runout. 
Voila, the location of the offset hole is now centered.


----------



## mklotz

I forgot to mention...

Save your aluminum beer/soda cans and cut them up to make padding for items you don't want marked in the chucks - the 4J can, as you've discovered, exert tremendous force.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv! Very helpful. I really like the idea of using the mill to find the center.

Also thanks for reminding me about aluminum strips. I remember Foozer talking about them too. Good timing too. I don't usually have beer at home...but last night I did. ;D


----------



## mklotz

You do realize, don't you, that your citizenship can be revoked if you don't have beer on hand at all times?

Oh, wait, that was Germany. Never mind.

Although, out there on the Main Line, having a gallon or two of Chablis or Chardonnay perpetually on tap might be a condition for residence. I know that's the case in Beverly Hills.

On a more useful note...

If you cut your bits of beer can in sort of the shape of a thick 'T', you can fold the wings of the T up over the vise jaws so they stay in place by themselves.


----------



## black85vette

mklotz  said:
			
		

> If you cut your bits of beer can in sort of the shape of a thick 'T', you can fold the wings of the T up over the vise jaws so they stay in place by themselves.



Great tip. Tnx.  And another point for you.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

black85vette...I think you meant to award that to Marv.

Hm...maybe that's why my karma has gone up...misplaced points!!!

Thanks Marv. That is a good tip.

I should have said 'beer in cans'. We keep some bottled beer. Wife likes to make lamb stew, shrimp, and a few other dishes that call for beer. ;D That's my story and I'm sticking to it. And yes...we have some wine too. Not on the 'Main Line' as such...but close enough. :big:


----------



## Cedge

Zee
I'll have to confess to having been so absorbed in my own recent project that I've missed much of this thread as it's grown. I made up for my sins of omission by starting from post #1 and enjoying reading through the whole thread. It has an almost Deja Vu feeling to it. It was much like standing and observing myself only about 18 months back.

Believe it or not you're much closer to the "AHA!!!" point than you might imagine. You're using each mistake as a step in the right direction and keeping your patience and sense of humor while doing so. It might seem like it's never going to click, but trust me.... there will be a point in your near future where things begin to go right without all the mental anguish and uncertainty. I know this because I crossed the same demarcation line about a year ago. 

I still make plenty mistakes, but I'm not upset when a part goes pear shaped these days. I just figure out where I screwed up and avoid it the next round. The nice part is that you learn that you can often correct the mistake if you look a little further into the build and compensate. 

I can back up what Marv has already offered. 

Leave the part on the stalk until the right time to separate it. You cant cut it if you can't hold it

Do all the operations possible before un-chucking the work piece. 

Multi-part assemblies are your friend.... look at the part and see if it breaks down into smaller easier to machine pieces that can be assembled after they are made.

Slow Down and take time to think it all through first.... it's not production work.

Don't rush the machine lest you make it angry.... an angry machine will tend to over eat.... metal, bones or flesh.... your choice

Mentally machine the piece a few times before you attack the metal. It will help spot the tight corners before you are painted into one.

You're moving up the J curve and it shows throughout the thread. Your remake percentage has been steadily dropping and your engines are looking damned good. Just keep doing what your doing..... its getting easier even if you haven't noticed.

Steve


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you Steve. Thank you very much. That means a lot.

This is a great forum. My success rate (such as it is ;D) is in direct proportion to the wonderful help I've received.

I can't get too upset when I'm learning something. By definition...mistakes will be made. I might think I should have known better in some cases...and that can be upsetting...but I also see how it is for people who learn from me at work.

Yes. A great forum. A number of very experienced people who remember the desire and the learning curve and are willing to share their experience despite the level of others.

Thanks again Steve.

As for the AHA moment. I know exactly what you mean. I've experienced it in other pursuits. And once in a while (usually the 2nd or 3rd try at a part ;D), I can smell it. I can almost feel it. It's always interesting to try and remember what you didn't know.


And so...we continue...eccentric #2 (possibly the father of #3)...






Thanks to Marv, getting the center of the eccentric (and keep in mind my terminology could be very wrong) was much easier. I was very pleased that the edge of the eccentric is right on the edge of the outer diameter and the diameter of the eccentric is 'spot on' at .44. Thanks Marv. I'm pretty pleased.

Unfortunately, I still have the problem with applying too much pressure and the 4-jaw made some horrendous dents on the other side. You should be able to see them along the bottom. I did use the aluminum bits as Marv suggested...but...I still haven't developed sufficient 'feel' yet.

I knocked them down a little with a file. We'll see if it's a problem for the part that mates to it. If so...well...as I just mentioned...that 3rd part should be pretty perfect!

This was a good weekend. Thanks all.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I just took a look at the aluminum strips on the 4-jaw.
Nothing left at the point of contact.
I either squished through it...or it got rubbed off.
Today's aluminum cans are not yesterday's!
You can tear this stuff like paper.

I'm almost afraid to ask...is Pepsi better than Coca-Cola? Mountain Dew? PBR over Miller? Bud? :big:

I think my aluminum foil is better.


----------



## Cedge

Zee
Making an interrupted cut tends to be somewhat violent. It just hammered through the thin aluminum. The strips work great in more gentle operations. I also use strips of index cards for the same purpose. Uniform thickness and a relatively tough material which is also fairly "soft".

Steve


----------



## kvom

Rather than use the 4 jaw and the issues it can bring, you might consider the technique I used on my paddleducks build that I learned from Bogs. It's on page 1 of the thread.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4910.0


----------



## mklotz

Four jaws, by virtue of having separate screws for each jaw and more jaws, can get a death-grip on a part with only moderate torquing of the jaw screw. If you're marring the part, it's a signal to perhaps back off just a bit on the screw tightening.

If you can't suppress your hulkish instincts, try (roughly in order of increasing complexity):

Sheet copper or brass jaw pads - look for flashing material at the home stores.
Aluminum jaw pads with magnets super-glued into counterbores.
Hold the part in your collet chuck - or -
Hold the part in a collet in a collet block and hold collet block in 4J
Make a split collet to hold the part - accuracy not important since you're using the 4J
Have your wife clamp the part for you.
Buy a click-stop torque wrench.
Cut off half the length of the arms on your chuck wrench.

I'm pleased that my suggestion for marking offsets worked for you. Keep that general idea in mind. You'll use it again. The mill is an ideal tool for doing layout. Especially so since, once you reach the desired coordinates, everything is in place to center drill a marker.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Steve...thanks. I should have mentioned that I saw some of the dents just after adjusting the 4-jaw...prior to machining. So while I think the interrupted cut is something to watch for, I don't think it was the culprit here. I took another look at the 4-jaw. The dents (and damaged aluminum) were caused by the two opposing jaws used to keep the part center...not by the two jaws used to move the part over. In fact those edges look excellent. So I think a combination of too much force and rubbing the part across the jaws resulted in the problem.

I think I'll follow Marv's suggestion and have my wife clamp it. :big:

kvom: Thanks for that link. Nice idea. I also like seeing the collet block (and yes I bought some the other day).

Marv: 'hulkish'...nice :big: Took me a bit to realize what you meant by having my wife clamp the part. No good using either method (even though she has a fiendish pinch). I do like using the mill and have gotten much more comfortable with the edge-finder. I liked the last tip too...cutting off the arms...not so silly!

Thanks again all.

I'm thinking I may be doing some rotary table work soon...the eccentric arm and the reversing lever.


----------



## mklotz

> I'm thinking I may be doing some rotary table work soon...the eccentric arm and the reversing lever.



An RT is good for the slot in the reversing lever although it can be done faster (and perhaps easier) by coordinate chain drilling and filing.

Since the eccentric arm has holes at the centers of each of its exterior radiused portions, it can be done very easily on a rounding over jig like the one I described a long time ago...

http://www.schsm.com/html/marv_klotz_38.html

I know. I know. Another tool to build. But engines are chock-a-block full of rounded-over bits. If you're in this for the long run, you need one of these or, better yet, Steve's excellent refinement of my clunky jig...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=1996.msg16117#msg16117


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv (and Steve) the rounding over jig is a definite must make tool in my future. It's one of the niftier tools I've seen amongst the many nifty tools on this forum.

But as far as right now...no...for two reasons...

a: The High Road: I'm doing this in part for the next poor fellow who buys the kit and thinks that he/she should be able to follow the instructions.
b: The Low Road: Nah...won't say...I have such a great rep already...why ruin it?

Anyway...it's a no go tonight. In reading further...the operations require reaming in the mill. Well...if you've been following...I don't have short enough reamers or a tall enough mill. So it's off to the catalogs and internet...and choosing a different part to make in the meantime.

Darn it. I wish I hadn't already taken off the vise. :big:

Maybe now is a good time to mod the mill for bigger Z? I don't think that will help with the reamer issue though. But I don't know for sure.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A quick look in Grizzly and Enco for 'short' reamers...well...if they're there...I didn't find them. What were these people thinking in putting together this kit? I can only think it's a good case of not remembering what they didn't know and didn't have.

Remember...this is the 2nd in a series of kits for what they call 'people who are new to machining'. So they shouldn't expect I have an extensive set of tools.

Hm..what to do? End-mill plunge? I wouldn't think that would work. Do what I did on the column and work up to a drill size? Risky. Hole won't be 'perfect'.

Rats. I will not recommend these kits to beginners. But give me a moment to think on this...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Is it worthwhile to get some chucking reamers and cut them down for the mill?

I looked at what modding (raising) the mill would get...and I don't think it's enough. I've run into this mill/reamer issue enough times now that I need a solution.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, years ago I had a different mill than I have now. It required the use of blind end mill holders, so a long reamer couldn't be passed through the spindle. I used a cut off wheel to shorten a whole set of reamers to use on that mill.

If you have some drill rod the right size, you can make what is called a "D" reamer. You have to drill your starting hole to very close to the finished size to use them, but they can be easily made to most any size you need, (diameter and length). 

More info if you want it. Just say..

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. I think that's the way I'm leaning right now. Get some reamers and cut them down for the mill. Like I said...I keep running into this...so maybe I'll get a set (or the ones I need). I've come across the D reamer a few times now...but I'm just not ready yet.

On a different note...I was thinking about Marv's suggestion about the collet and lathe. I don't think it'll work. Doesn't fit. It's just a mini-lathe...a 7x12. But I am wondering if a collet block would fit that Grizzly 10xsomething. That would be far into the future...but I like to dream.


----------



## black85vette

Zee, I cut down a couple of reamers also. Used a Dremel with a cut off wheel to cut them down. Most of the holes I ream are not that deep even if I am doing the bushings for a crank shaft I don't need much. I left just enough shank for my drill chuck to hold.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, do you have a piece of drill rod the same size as the hole you need to ream, or larger? If so, making a D reamer will let you get on with that part without having to wait on a reamer from a parts house.

Trust me when I say it is very easy to make. I understand you don't want to get into making complicated cutters at this time. A D reamer is honestly a 10-30 minute job, even for someone who's never made any kind of cutting tool. No indexing, no fancy tool edge geometry. Can be made with only a file and a cheap propane torch, but using a lathe and mill makes it even easier.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks black85vette. It helps to know.

Dean...no drill rod here. I haven't looked but I don't recall seeing it named as such from the houses I order from. Is there another name (and don't nobody suggest silver steel :big?


----------



## joe d

Zee

Speedy Metals stock Drill Rod, don't know if they have any Silver Steel :

(It's listed in the "tool Steel" section of their website)


Cheers, Joe


----------



## mklotz

CUT YOUR DAMN REAMERS DOWN!

For the likes of us, reamers are consumables. Though they can be sharpened, most of us haven't the tools or skills to do so and having it done is expensive.

If you need a long one in a size you've already circumcised, buy it when you need it.

Don't buy a whole set of short reamers, even if you can find them. You don't want to be buying tools for which you have no immediate need. Besides, your money would be better spent on a more useful set of over and under reamers.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Quoting Marv: "CUT YOUR DAMN REAMERS DOWN!"

Agh! I heard that from here!

Thanks Marv. I have no damn reamers but I have some others (including some darn ones) that will do nicely ;D.

Thanks Joe. I've used SpeedyMetals before. I'll get some in my next order.

hm...preview is still a problem...so is 'Insert Quote'. But the 'Insert Quote' only seems to be a problem once I start a reply.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Just got my latest issue of Model Engineer (vol 203, No 4361).
The start of a bad evening.
Article on the Stockport Vacuum Engine.
Has a brass drain cock handle.
That's right...you bend it.
Small diameter at the bend. Heat it. Bend it 90 degree. 90!
Well Robert...looks like I'm going to have to have another go at this.

Not related to the evening...the issue includes an article (Andy Stait) titled "How to be a model engineer in seven easy steps". It's not what it sounds like. Story of a person who had an interest in machining as a kid but couldn't develop that interest until well into adulthood (i.e. older kid)..and gave some tips on their perspective as a newcomer. Really struck me. One because that's much like my story but two because it sounded so much like this forum. The tips he gave. It was nice.

As for the rest of the evening...my laptop decided it could connect to my router...but not the internet. And MS is no help as much as they like to tell you they're helping. I'm a programmer and supposedly like technology...but I really detest new technology for the sake of new. 20 button washing machines should be outlawed. Hackers and virus generators should be jailed. No ifs ands or buts. I hate having my time wasted by others. Hm....on that note...I should stop wasting yours. Ta. Sorry. ;D

PS...I never did try to figure out how to program a VCR. This stuff should not be hard.


----------



## Cedge

> CUT YOUR DAMN REAMERS DOWN!


 Rof} Thm:

Steve
who was thinking the exact same thing


----------



## mklotz

CUT YOUR DAMN REAMERS DOWN!

I hope everyone understands that my shouting was due only to my exasperation and it should not in any way be construed as invective directed at Carl.

Modifying tools (and building tools, jigs, fixtures) is a given if you're going to be doing anything useful in a machine shop. Agonizing over grinding a special profile on a drill or treating a reamer to a bris is a waste of time. Just do it and move on. 

Look at it this way... You've already had several occasions where you needed shortened reamers. You've had no situations where you needed the long shaft on the as-bought reamers. Clearly, shortening reamers will yield a set of tools you need at the expense of a set of tools you don't need. Should you ever need a long shaft reamer, they can be bought one at a time.


----------



## black85vette

As a side benefit of cutting them you end up with a useful bit of hardened rod that you can use for something else!


----------



## vlmarshall

black85vette  said:
			
		

> As a side benefit of cutting them you end up with a useful bit of hardened rod that you can use for something else!




...like making D reamers. ;D


----------



## mklotz

black85vette  said:
			
		

> As a side benefit of cutting them you end up with a useful bit of hardened rod that you can use for something else!



I'm not certain but I think you'll find that most (machine) reamers, like drills, have soft shanks. Only the tips are hardened. The soft shank is needed so that there is something for the chuck to get a grip on.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Steve...or are you a doppleganger of Marv? ;D

Marv...I hope everyone understood that too. I certainly didn't take it any other way.

Just to be accurate though...I have used the reamers in question in the lathe.

Vernon..."Quiet you!"


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well, I think the people that suggested I cut my reamers down have misled me.
If I shorten this one anymore...there won't be any reamer left!!!
What are you people thinking?!







I think it's the other end that...oh...is that what you meant? Darn.

(Is a fake picture. Just couldn't resist. Actually meant to have a real one but when I went to do it...I realized that I don't have the required reamer! Nothing to cut! For the other hole, I think the reamer is short enough already. If not...I'll cut it when I need it...not when I'm not sure.)


----------



## cobra428

Nice One ZEE,
When I first looked I went th_wtf1. 
 Rof} Rof} Rof}
 Tony


----------



## bearcar1

Oooooh, yas' got me as well there Zee. My first thought when I saw that pic come up was "No, he couldn't have been that stupid could he ??? " The world may never know, tune in tomorrow for answers to these and many more questions. :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## Krown Kustoms

I think my heart skipped a beat when I saw that picture.
Good one Zee, I think you got all of us. Thm:
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks...it was fun.
No...not 'that' stupid. But stick around...I have other stupids I can do. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Ya had me for a second there, Zee. I looked close thinking "NO HE DID NOT just cut the sharp end off his reamer!" Then I saw the telltale P'shop shadow and breathed a sigh of relief, remembering I was one of those who suggested that you cut them off.  Thought we had a real life Homer Simpson here for a minute.. Doh!


Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Dean...stay tuned. Homer may show up yet. (Although difficult as doughnuts have been banned from this house. Not my choice mind you.)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

So I've been looking at the next step for the mill engine from the instructions. And I just have to say it again...this kit...or rather the instructions for it...are a poor excuse for someone's idea of a beginner's kit.

Sure...one should read the entire instructions before beginning...but no manual should have the words..."But first,...". If it should be first...well then...make it first!

Instructions say going to use the rotary table.
So I set it up.
"But first"...use the vise to do some operations.
Okay...back to the vise...then, per instructions, back to the RT.
And then it says "Now machine up a Milling Fixture similar to"....
Uh...right...and I need the vise for that right?
And then...
"The rotary table shown is six inches in diameter..."
Well darn. Mine is 4". Any mention of whether I NEED a 6" table? Will 4" do?

deja vu. I've had this conversation somewhere before...
Hmmm...not the wife...she doesn't care about machining...

Anyway...I've tried to follow this instruction manual for the benefit of the poor souls that follow me...but now that I realize there can be no one poorer than me...

Forget the manual...drawings are okay..but you don't need to spend the extra money for the parts...unless you think it's convenient...but if you screw up one part...you'll be buying anyway.

Ah well...wife goes another trip this weekend...I should have a bit more time to figure this out...or rant some more.


----------



## va4ngo

Good to also see some light hearted humour in your posts

Phil


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Dean...stay tuned. Homer may show up yet. (Although difficult as doughnuts have been banned from this house. Not my choice mind you.)



That Homer guy shows up in my shop too, Zee. I could have made a counter bore in about an hour to do this piece right, but instead took the "easy" way out and used an
end mill. Had about eight hours work in this piece when this happened.






I was able to salvage this piece, but I was unhappy when it happened! Doughnuts help in a case like this. I keep a box of 'em next to the first aid kit.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Dean...Sorry to hear that. Glad you were able to salvage the part.

What was wrong about using the end mill? What caused it?

As for Homer...since you are lucky enough to have some doughnuts...toss some over the fence...he might leave the shop for them. Unless...you're going to follow them and fight over them. :big:

Phil...thanks. Without humor (or even humour) I'd be one pretty sad guy. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

That project was done a few months back. I'm over it, but the doughnut supply dwindled that day.

An end mill will work for this most times, actually. It can be iffy, though. On this piece, the counter bore was right next to the edge of the hole, and it just vibrated a bit and broke out of the hole, yanking the piece out of the vise. A counter bore is made similar to an end mill but it has a pilot that keeps it straight in the hole, preventing problems like this.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Turns out the instructions assume I have a 6" RT. Silly people. I only have 4"
hm....deja vu...this keeps happening.

And like other things...you can't use the 4" in the way the instructions have you do the eccentric arm and reversing lever. So did a little talking with the guy who owes me beer. (He was some help...but he still owes me beer.)

The original plans call for putting a block of aluminum on the RT and putting the part on top of that. Two bolts go through the ends of the block into the T-nuts of the table. That in itself makes the block too long for the 4". You also have to put a stop block near the edge of the table with a spacer between it and the block. During the operation, you move the block over to the stop. The spacer and stop block is used as a way of sliding the block over so the mill can work on a properly spaced hole.

So...instead...I made two thick washers whose diameter is the same as the width of the slot (i.e. keying pins). I'm going to put those on the bottom of the block so the block can slide along the slots. Then I'm going to use the clamping kit for the RT to clamp the block down. I'll use a magnetic indicator mounted on the mill table to move the block when I unclamp it.

Here's the block and washer. Although it wasn't necessary, I went ahead and faced and squared the block. Good practice for me.






Here's the 'pins' just sitting on top of the block.






The block is 1" high, 3" long, and 1.5" wide.

I'll proabably make several tapped holes along the center line so I could the pin in different places.

Since profiling the eccentric arm and reversing arm will result in the top of the block getting milled (and I have to drill into it too) I've thought about using a 2nd sacrificial plate. (Just picture the current block being sliced into two with the bottom, thinner part being the carrier and the top, thicker part being the sacrificial.)

For now...I can use the block and mill it down as I use it and once it gets thin enough...then start make a new plate to put on top.

I'm not looking that far into the future...at some point I'm going to have this ready to go and find out something bad. Like the mill is too short...or the reamer is too...nah.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

I hate to sacrifice good stock too.
I like the plate idea.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not so sure about this. I didn't take into account the lengths of the slots and the central area where the hole is.

For the eccentric arm, the part has to slide .96" but for the reversing lever the part has to slide 1.188".
Central area is about 1.42".
Each slot is then (4 - 1.42) / 2 = 1.29".
The pin is .31. Half that is .15 so...
the effective length of a slot is 1.29 - .15 = 1.14 which is 'shorter' than 1.188.

So at best...it's right on the money close enough.

I suppose one possibility is a longer block and put in sliding pins. ( came up with that myself ;D) It only needs to keep the part along the center line when sliding it. For that matter...the pins can be stationary...if that's possible...and just slot a 5/16 in the block...hm...yep...gotta do some more thinking.

Or...bar (key) on the RT on each slot...then if bar goes off one slot as it slides...it still has enough on the other to stay centered.

Okay...feeling a little better...and haven't lost any work...just a hole I already drilled. Oh...and two thick washers. Some drawings...ah...not much...gained experience. We won't discuss what kind of experience. Thank you.


----------



## Kermit

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> .....So...instead...I made two thick washers whose diameter is the same as the width of the slot (i.e. keying pins). I'm going to put those on the bottom of the block so the block can slide along the slots. Then I'm going to use the clamping kit for the RT to clamp the block down. I'll use a magnetic indicator mounted on the mill table to move the block when I unclamp it.....



I found it feels really good making something just so you can 'make something else' easier, or better and knowing it is your own creation doesn't it?

Maybe all this just means I'm easily entertained. :big:  

Keep on Truckin' my friend, I'm enjoying the ride.
Kermit


----------



## arnoldb

You're getting along Zee; I presume nothing of this is in the original instructions ? 

As to facing the block, besides getting practice from that, it is a good idea to face raw stock; don't ever trust raw stock to be square as-supplied!

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kermit. Very much. Yes...I'm having fun with this tool.

Arnold...thanks. The concept is in the instructions (and I'm sure there are other ways to do this) but the mounting details are different. While I don't think squaring the block in the original concept was absolutely necessary (given the thinness of the part to make)...I wanted the experience. And yes, I was surprised by the lack of squareness.

I hope to use the tools, or some of them, again some day.

So here is the block and the key on which it rides. The key is bolted down with the T-nuts. I made it one piece as I don't need the center hole of the RT once it is mounted. But you can see how easy it would be to chop it into two and use a couple more T-nuts. The slot in the block is deep enough so that it actually sits on the RT...not the key.






Here is the key bolted in and the block riding on top.






Here's the block clamped down and a blank part sitting on top...later the part will be clamped to the block using a bolt (and possibly washers and shims).






So that was fun. Thanks again to the guy who owes beers. Someday he'll start asking what's in it for him when I ask questions. Which is fine...but it won't be beer. :big:

I do wonder why the mill table couldn't have been used to move the whole thing back and forth. I'm thinking it could and I've done all this for...for nothing? :hDe: No matter. Good exercise.

Now...let's see what new trouble this troublemaker can make for some of our troubled members. ;D


----------



## mklotz

It's reassuring to see, Zee, that you've finally accepted the fact that making jigs and fixtures is a good thing, even if it distracts you temporarily from the primary project. Preserve this attitude; it will serve you well in the future.

I still can't figure out how this is going to be used to make the eccentric arm and the reversing handle but I'm sure that will become apparent in the next set of pictures or so.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Your 1500th post directed at me Marv. Thanks!

But just to clarify...I've always known, and have said as much, that making jigs and fixtures is a good thing. I've only differed on when. I guess it's time now. ;D

As for your question about how I'm going to use this to make the eccentric...well...I suspect part of your question is a preliminary to when you're going to tell me that I didn't have to go through all this. (After all, you've made this engine. ;D)

No doubt there are other ways. Anyway...

The eccentric arm has two arcs some distance apart. If the RT is used to cut the arcs, then the spindle has to be centered on the RT and just as importantly, the RT has to be centered on the hole (arc). Which means the part has to move the holes to the center of the RT. Hence, the block. Certainly can move the part without the block (but I expect it would be more difficult and less accurate - especially if one has to do that more than once).

Then...rotate and use mill table to connect the arcs.

The profile of the eccentric is not critical. Just the size and distance of the two holes. So a round-over would be convenient too.

So...yes...maybe I've made a tool...a tool I didn't need...that some experience might have told me I didn't need...had I waited a little longer. :big: Sorry.

Seriously though...I've gotten to the point where I'm going to do more of this. I was just talking to the beerless friend of mine a few days ago and he was pressing me too. Well...I do have a few things lined up...

A holder for grinding my tool bits (Yes! I'll be grinding too! ;D)
I want to mount some digital calipers on the lathe and mill.
hm...there's a couple of others I can't think of off the top of my head...
Also have the Z mod to do.

Thanks again Marv.


----------



## vlmarshall

Beerless friend!? *beer*

Ah well, nice finish on those parts. Wake me when you get to the locomotives. *beer*


----------



## mklotz

The rounding over jig would be faster but I wasn't pushing that - at least, not in my last post.

I just don't see why you need the sliding jig. Consider this approach for the eccentric arm...

Drill the required holes at each end of the arm blank.
With angle blocks in the mill, mill the angled sides of the eccentric arm.

Make a plug to fit the center hole of your RT. Drill and ream it to, say, 1/4".
Make two plugs. One end of each plug is a sliding fit in the 1/4" hole. The other end is a sliding fit in each of the holes in the eccentric arm.

Center RT in mill. Mount plug in RT. Insert one of the smaller plugs. Mount the eccentric arm to this plug, packed above RT table and clamped. Use RT to mill radius on that end of eccentric arm. Repeat procedure for other end of eccentric arm. Done.

I didn't faff around with an RT for the reversing lever. Coordinate chain drilling to remove the bulk of the material in the slot and then some filing. It's thin brass so it's really not much work.

1500 posts!? Damn, I'm a wordy SOB, aren't I? (rhetorical question)


----------



## CrewCab

mklotz  said:
			
		

> 1500 posts!? Damn, I'm a wordy SOB, aren't I? (rhetorical question)



Hey, Zee's catching you Marv  ............... and I think he's in danger of making this the longest ever thread on HMEM ........... ;D

Though to be fair ............. Zee, well done; it's been fun so far plus, you I and lots of others have learnt a lot and, at the same time we are having a bit of fun .......... keep it up, I suspect this thread will be still running when you retire, though hopefully by then you will be on to the Mk171/2 version of the Zeep Mill Engine 8)

CC


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Yes, to add to CC
I enjoy following this thread Zee.
There is info and humor, what else can you ask for in chatting with people who I have never met.
Thanks 
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv...as I suspected...you had another method. Thanks. No...RT is not 'needed' but that was the approach the instructions took. And, out of necessity, I've deviated from the instructions. When you don't have a 6"...you do what you can with 4". (And I've been successful so far ;D.)

CC...hm...gee I hope I'm not doing this when I retire. For one thing...we would all get fed up with my lack of progress. It was bad enough I got 4 Model #2A kits to get it running. (I didn't say 'right'...just 'running').

This isn't in response to your reply, but I was thinking about this thread earlier (aside from everyday...all day long)...worried about my progress...but I can't feel too bad. There's a rocker in there somewhere (okay..maybe some other guy did it ;D) and a Spindex mod, and the indicator holders...and gee...when you make the same part twice...it takes twice as long :big:.

-B-...thank you. I'm real happy people are enjoying this and very glad that the knowledgeable ones are contributing so we can all learn.

As for what else I could ask for?....Well, here are just a 'few' suggestions...

Beer (especially from the guy who owes me)
Money is always good
German or Swiss chocolates
More money
Wine and cheese are a big hit here
And, yes, more money

But yeah...you're right...the members here make it so enjoyable to participant.

Thanks all.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Made the eccentric arm! Woo woo! Not the biggest deal in the world but this was probably the most complicated and difficult part I've done to date. Several mistakes but I think the part will do just fine.

Many thanks to the beerless one. His help was invaluable. Why...I'll even say he owes me less beer. However...beer minus less beer is still beer. ;D

I didn't have a .625 reamer. Beerless one suggested 4-jaw and boring. Okay. I can do that!







Then make the other two holes. The middle one is for decoration. As for the small one...well...I forgot to drill under size and then ream. Should be okay.






See the lock lever sitting on top of the vise? Well...there's a little story that goes with that. When drilling the hole before boring I could see one of the jaws on the chuck was pretty far out and I looked for any possible interference. The carriage, of course, was between the chuck and the tailstock which had the bit. Things looked good. What I hadn't counted on was that the vibration, due to the off-balance chuck, would cause the lever on the carriage clamp to rotate. Which it did. What I heard was 'thwock thwock thwock ding!'. The ding being the lever bouncing off a wall. Oh yeah...I also heard a 'wha?' but that was me. (I had glasses on and the magnifying light was between me and the fun.)

Mounted on the fixture. Luckily, beerless one reminded me to indicate the key to the X axis.






Now...to be honest...this is actually the 2nd part. (Yes...must keep 2:1 ratio.)...The first time I did this I tried to end-mill the 0.625. Big mistake and I knew I was making it. This hobby will quickly teach you to leave nothing to luck. Anyway...didn't clamp well enough so the part rotated on me and was bad. O' beerless one suggested a pin. I had a 0.125 copper rod (was supposed to be tubing) so I used that.

The problem is...since the 1st part caused badness (okay...I caused the badness), the block was no longer centered. I centered on the hole to mount the 2nd part. This, I think, bit me later.

Now for milling. First pass....time to pucker...and pucker I did. Plunge, move, plunge, move...






I could see that a piece of brass was going to come free and go flying...which it certainly did. That little piece of information should have been in the instructions.

Figuring a little thin bit of brass would be easy to clean up, I had hoped to set the cutter a hair above the block and spare it from being milled. Nope. But is okay.

Through the woods...

To grandma's...






Grandma wasn't home...so back again...






Move the block 0.95 inch to center on the small hole because I'm going to rotate around that now (I hope this answers Marv's question.)






And now the dreaded last operation...where things seem to invariably go wrong...

Finished the other end...and discovered the problem...






The part was just a tad off to one side in X. You'll see in a moment.






Polished...






So you can see that the bottom of the arm (big end) is a little closer to the hole that it should be. But the distances to either side look pretty good!

So happy guy!

Probably be an hour or two before the pucker relaxes though.

One more part for Isabella!

[EDIT: Almost forgot! Who needs 6" my 4" (RT) did great!]


----------



## chuck foster

looking good zee  Thm: Thm:

chuck


----------



## JimN

Looks good to me Zee. You should post a pic of all the parts you have made, hmmm thinking about that for me, would be a large pile unless it was only the parts that made it through inspection.


Jim
Abbotsford, BC


----------



## Artie

This is the stuff that I enjoy/hate about this hobby... what you call the Pucker Factor..its exhilerating when it works out all good.. but damned frustrating when it all goes bad on that last step...

So.... bloody well done mate!

Incidentally...can I send you an Aussie $1 coin? (read this in your best Texan slow drawl...) "Cause I caint get the scale perspective right ina mah haid with thet there damn foreeeign currency...".. 8)


----------



## vlmarshall

Congrats, Zeep! I'm glad that part worked out for you. Not too sure about the "beerless one" you keep picking on, unfairly, I'd say. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

You're still making good progress, Zee! 
The setup block you made for your RT will come in handy for lots of stuff, _and_, it's a good fixture plate. Thick enough to be faced off many times.

So, who is this mysterious beerless man you keep mentioning? Does he wear a mask over his eyes, or have a cape, maybe? Does he have special machinist powers... A Swarf Super Hero, perhaps?  Swarfman?  
Us machinist types need our own super hero!



			
				Artie  said:
			
		

> Incidentally...can I send you an Aussie $1 coin? (read this in your best Texan slow drawl...) "Cause I caint get the scale perspective right ina mah haid with thet there damn foreeeign currency...".. 8)



So, ya wanna send him some furrin currency...? 

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Chuck.

Thanks Jim. Pics of original parts or the re-dos? The pile of original parts is larger. ;D

Thanks Artie. I have an Aussie friend at work...I'll try and hit him up. Reminds me to ask him what he's doing over here. ;D

Thanks 'Oh bee...', I mean, Vernon.

Thanks Dean. Yeah...if I keep using this fixture and it gets faced down enough...then I'll bolt a thin plate on top of that. Could even have different plates for different things but we'll see if it's ever needed again. If I do, I'd like to come up with a better method for clamping the block down. Maybe slots on the side. I don't know if bolts into the side against the key would be enough. Maybe slot along the length of the key so the bolt doesn't chew up the side? Probably should be a steel key then? Well...now I'm rambling...


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Looks good Zee, you wont notice the offset hole after assembly.
There might be a slight timing advance, everything I have ever worked on a timing advance is good.
Im not formilliar with this engine I assume this part goes to valve timing.

For the foreeeign coin, it is .75 inch dia or 19.05 milimeter &#9786;

-B-


----------



## mklotz

Nicely done, Zee. We're all proud of you. To put it in the vernacular... You've come a long way, baby.



> I could see that a piece of brass was going to come free and go flying



Stop just short of the point where it's free and break it off with pliers. This is especially important when cutting a piece free in a cavity (imagine cutting a square hole into a piece of plate with an endmill). When the waste breaks free, it can jam between the endmill and the hole wall with spectacularly disturbing results. Break it off and remove it by hand rather than trying to mill it free.

On outside cuts like you were doing, it's less of a problem. Sometimes, if the (ferrous) fragment is going to be small, one can get by with a magnet placed close by to capture the part when it breaks free. For non-ferrous, a layer of double-sided carpet tape under the part is a good restraint.

Oh yeah, and for our foreign cousins, as someone has pointed out, an American penny is *exactly* 0.75 inches in diameter. It's a handy thing to remember when you find yourself in the store and you've forgottten your six inch scale. In fact, it's worth memorizing the dimensions of other currencies as emergency rulers.


----------



## black85vette

mklotz  said:
			
		

> On outside cuts like you were doing, it's less of a problem. Sometimes, if the (ferrous) fragment is going to be small, one can get by with a magnet placed close by to capture the part when it breaks free. For non-ferrous, a layer of double-sided carpet tape under the part is a good restraint.



That's a useful tip. Thanks, I'll file that away.


Zee; good looking part and nice setup for it!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks -B-. Timing shouldn't be a problem due to the offset of the profile. The distance from the small to large hole is what's critical. That's not to say I got that right either. ;D

Thanks Marv. Yes...nice tip to grab the part rather than let it go. 

Thanks black85vette.

The replies reminded of something I had wanted to mention in the earlier post. You really have to be careful with brass. I couldn't believe how much it tends to grab the end mill and try to bring the spindle down. Had to keep a real good hold on the crank. The bigger the bite (plunge) the more it grabbed.

Was wondering if there are different end-mills for brass?


----------



## Paolo

Nice idea for doing latch...!! Thanks for sharing :bow:
Best regards Paolo


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee - Well done!

Don't know if you can buy end mills specially for brass though... (I know- I know GIYF :hDe: - just cant be bothered ;D)

At least you got to work :big:


----------



## mklotz

> The replies reminded of something I had wanted to mention in the earlier post. You really have to be careful with brass. I couldn't believe how much it tends to grab the end mill and try to bring the spindle down. Had to keep a real good hold on the crank. The bigger the bite (plunge) the more it grabbed.
> 
> Was wondering if there are different end-mills for brass?



Doesn't your mill have a spindle lock? Most do although I'm not familiar with the mini mills so perhaps not. If it does, get in the habit of using it. There's slop in them thar spindles.

No special mills for brass that I know of.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.
Thanks Paolo. Wife is still thinking about Rome next year...in the fall maybe.

Marv...isn't the spindle lock the hole/bar that stops the spindle from turning so you can change out tools? I think you mean the Z-axis lock.

Yes mini-mill does have a Z-axis lock. But if I had used it...I wouldn't have been able to do the plunges. I did use the stop though so the plunge wouldn't go further than I wanted.

The Z-axis lock is nothing more than a '4th gib screw'. Right? At least on my mini-mill.

But, if I do understand you right, I should have locked the Z-axis when I was doing the finish cuts which were done by rotating or cranking the mill over with the spindle at a set Z. But those cuts didn't have any grab to them.

Thanks.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

After having the CNC on my mill for some time now, I have noticed some wear in the screws.
If I am doing anything manual on it I try to lock any axis that is not being used. It cuts down on the chatter.
I rebuilt my lathe now its time for the mill.
-B-

p.s. don't forget to unlock the jibs when going back to CNC (don't ask how I know) you might hear something from the steppers like stepping on a cats tail, they don't like being bound up.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

-B-...I have no CNC...but your tip for locking unused axes down is a good one. I've gotten better at that because it does make a world of difference.

However...I'm wondering if people think there was a lot of chatter in the cut. I've had another comment on this. But I think it's just the camera shot and not being clear about what I was doing. I didn't notice any chatter...they were plunge cuts...

The picture that I think might be causing the confusion (if any) is a picture after a series of plunge cuts taken (supposedly) .06 inches apart. Not that I followed that exactly. I found that the smaller the amount of metal to remove, the bigger the distance I could go without the end-mill being pulled down by the brass.

After that cut, another cut was made along the metal (no plunge). That cleaned up things pretty good. I had very little sanding to do on the edges except at the small end because I was off from center a little. What little dents are left are because I didn't go in far enough for the final cut...and didn't sand it away well enough.

Right now I'm wondering how much I can get done in the upcoming days/weeks/months. Wife comes home tomorrow...then folks are visiting...then off to visit folks and in-laws...darn it...why can't they be into machining model engines too?!


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Zee,
I just added the chatter part (thats what I suffer from).
I was refering to an earlier post about the brass grabbing and bringing down the spindle.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Didn't get a lot done...not that I do anyway...but thought I'd show something...

I'm working on the reversing lever. I have to use the RT with the sliding block.

I wasn't too happy with the instructions. 3/8" thick, 1" by 1.5". Set it in a 4-jaw with center about .16 from the end. Turn a .312 boss .19 high. Steel. That seemed like a lot of interrupted unbalanced cutting.

After a little consultation...I decided to mill most of it off and then turn it.

Here it is after milling about .2 depth for the boss...leaving 1.75...






When I milled it, I put a dot where the center of the boss is. Here I've mounted it on the 4-jaw. Disaster almost visited me. I had to make a spacer and while tightening things up, the spacer fell out. Well I didn't want that flying out so I left it out. But then I realized I was going to drill and ream and that would put a lot of pressure on the part. I needed the spacer. So redid it and this time taped the spacer. They should have mentioned that in the instructions. Every time I tighten something down, something else can come loose.






Drilled and reamed...






Turned. I put the spindle speed as high as I could before the unbalanced part would cause some vibration.






You can see a little corner that the turning didn't get to. But that's okay. When profiled, the corners are gone.

Then I went back to the mill and vise and milled the thickness and flycut to 0.06. Rats....no...0.05. Oh well.

Here it is sitting on the jig I made. I haven't mounted it yet. The screw is a 10-32 and fits snugly in the hole. Profiling is not critical. So it should center nicely. I'll also put a clamp at the other end..just a piece of metal and a screw through it.






This was a little nerve wracking...I still haven't 'relaxed'.


----------



## mklotz

Hmm, I'm trying to remember how I did it. I made mine of brass.

Small piece of 1/16" brass plate. Mark out profile, handle and curved opening for lock screw. Cut to rough shape with jeweler's saw, file to final shape. Chain drill opening, lop cusps off with midget chisel and then file to shape. Drill for pivot bushing.

Make (brass) pivot bushing. Drop in hole in plate and (soft) solder. Buff all shiny. (This was back when I thought engines should be shiny - I've gotten over that now.)

Now, what was my point? Ah, I remember...

Whenever a part consists of a thin plate with one extended feature perpendicular to the plate plane, consider fabrication as an alternative to milling a lot of material away.


----------



## JimN

Great work Zee. Something I do that you might want to think about, when I need a spacer or something along that line in behind, I use super glue, the really thin stuff like water. It holds the spacer in nicely and most times a rap with a plastic hammer takes it off, if not a quick soak in acetone does or a touch of heat from a heat gun.


----------



## Deanofid

You got it done, Zee, which is what counts. There are a few other ways, (for your next project);

Reverse it in the four jaw after you had the boss turned, pack it up and face off the bottom side. Same can be done in the three jaw if the boss is big enough to grab with the jaws.
or
Use a large arbor with a hole drilled in it for the boss to fit into, super glue the piece to the arbor and chuck the whole affair in the three jaw and face off the back side.
or
Pack it up in the mill vise using parallels, boss side down, and flycut it to finish thickness.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Yes...fabrication actually crossed my mind this time. It just seemed odd to have a little cylinder and a hunk of metal flying off of it. If I were doing another engine...I would certainly do it differently.

Thanks JimN. My 'consultant' mentioned superglue too. The tape did fine...but I've seen/heard superglue used a lot...so it's a technique I'll eventually learn.

Thanks Dean. Actually, the instructions called for flipping the part around into a 3-jaw and thinning to size. I should've mentioned that. But I didn't like the idea of gripping a .312 diameter by less than .2 high cylinder and turning it. Just seemed like I was asking for trouble and seeing the part take off on me. I had the vise out already...so I used that...milled close to size (apparently too close) and flycut it.

But overall yeah...just like in programming there seems to be more than one way to solve a problem. I like to hear about them.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Reversing Lever...done...could have been better...and if I ever make another one...it will be. In the mean time...this will have to do...

Here it is clamped down with a 10-32 and the block clamped down with RT clamps. (Remember the RT clamps.) 4 holes. 2 are at the end of travel for the arc that will have that fantastic brass handle! They'll be tapped for 5-40 that will be used as clamps. (Not my idea..is instructions.) The other two are are the corners of the handle. (Another infamous handle as it turns out.)






First arc made...






I don't know what I did wrong...the result is what was wanted...but the part didn't rotate in the way the instruction said. Oh...maybe not wrong then...just different. The eagle eye (or those paying attention) will have espied that the RT clamps are now in a different orientation. That is what happens when you take a dry run with the X axis and see that you're going to bang the spindle into the bolt of the clamp.






On the plus side...the biggest thing I wanted to succeed at was to rotate around the boss...right next to it without marring it. One half was spot on...the other half was just a tiny tad away. Which is better than a tiny tad in. So I was happy.

With the 5-40s in place...






Now the handle. A little voice (not mine by the way) said something like..."If it were me...I'd file the end round."...but another voice (mine this time) said "Noooo. I want to do it like the instructions.". So I have a short handle now. Darn it...I was thinking..."Okay...this is the last operation...what am I doing wrong. It has to be something...it's the last operation. No? Okay. Let's do it." 

Well the something was forgetting to move by half the diameter of the cutter.






The 'finished' result. Well...'finished'? I could have spent more time cleaning up and sanding. I also see that 1018 seems to tear pretty good..you can see a spot or two on the inner arc. Could probably clean that up with dremel. Also, the old eye does see the ittiest detail...I don't think I took care of backlash as well as I should have.






Couple of other things...

In doing the reversing lever and eccentric arm...the instructions suggested using a grease pencil to mark the location of the mill in X and Y. That was a great tip. Made things much easier. So long as you put your cranks on 0 and don't adjust them then it's easy to get back to where you were. A single turn of crank is visibly off the grease mark. (I used a sharpie as my grease pencils went out the door in the clean up in preparation for this hobby. Drat.)

Also...the 3rd clamp you saw...the instructions said to drill a 10-32 and make an L-shaped clamp. (I forgot to do that and didn't want to tear down the RT). As it turned out, I still had the 10-24 from the eccentric arm...and it was in position to use another RT clamp. That left a shim...well...it helps to keep the scraps and boo-boos...used a bit of metal from the machinist clamp I made when I first started.


----------



## mklotz

Looks pretty good to me, Zee.

Could you have visualized yourself making a part like this back in February (?) when you started? Pat yourself on the back and crack a bottle of Lafite-Rothschild.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Marv. No...actually...I couldn't say what I visualized. I wanted to build an engine...do some machining. I had no idea what it entailed except a lathe, a mill, and some tools. This is great fun. And a lot of that fun and learning has been due to this forum and its members. So thanks Marv...and thanks to everyone.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

The lever looks great
your jig turned out pretty useful.
-B-


----------



## Artie

Just had to jump on and give my personal thanks to not only Zee but to all you guys who post regularly or irregularly. And this is for posts past, present and those to come. Great stuff!

Ive had the mill for about a year now and have amazed myself at what can be done with her. Ive now increased my abilitys hugely just by watching your builds. Ive picked up so much info on technique and 'how to' that I simply want to race out and build things (like Zees rev lever!).

Same goes for the lathe, shes been a family member for over 20 years and I thought I had her options down pat. I see her in a new light and want to try a few techniques on her as well.

Until now all my skills have been self taught....stooooopid me, how much time and material have I wasted? Maybe I should have signed up for a shop class years ago....

Great stuff from all, I hope I can add something back to the site as time goes on....

Cheers

Rob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Rob. Very nice post. Thank you.

Even though I'm not in it for a job...I've thought about a class too.

But don't feel bad about thinking what you could have done! I'm sitting here wondering what I could have done had I started this 30 years ago. That road leads to depression. No thanks.

Lastly, I think you just contributed...thanks! It's not always about machining...just support is invaluable.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks -B-.

I took another look at the picture. My! This is one case where the picture looks better than the real thing. But I'm pretty happy...lots of interesting learnings in that exercise.

Just have to toot my own little horn here...as much as it might be ill-founded...but I think some of you have experienced the same...

I was cleaning up after the last part...putting things away...ya.de.ya.de.ya.da...and I picked up a part that I didn't recognize...hm...what the heck does this go to?...where did it come from?...and then it hit me! I'd made it! It was one of the blackened nuts I'd made for the indicator holders. It looked like a 'real' part! Man that felt good! Well...other than realizing I'm losing it. ;D


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
That's a fine looking part you made. You made some complex machining moves there and the end result looks great.  :bow:

Rob - nothing wrong with being self taught...as long as you pay attention to the instructor ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## black85vette

I did take a class in the local Vo-tech. But what we learned there was just fundamentals and safety. The really cool stuff like what you are doing comes later and is learned from experience and from others who can share tips with you. That is what is so great here. Those of us who do not work in a machine shop with the old timers to learn from can gather a lot of shop wisdom from those with a lot of experience right here. So thanks to you guys who share your skills and to Zee for asking the questions.


----------



## Artie

Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> Zee,
> That's a fine looking part you made. You made some complex machining moves there and the end result looks great.  :bow:
> 
> Rob - nothing wrong with being self taught...as long as you pay attention to the instructor ;D
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil



Hi Phil, I agree with your sentiment..cept I havent had an instructor.. my view on self taught is no instructor, so I meant I could have been at another level had I had an instructor earlier..(you guys are now my 'instructors'. thanks for putting your hands up). :bow:


----------



## CrewCab

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hi Rob, I think you just contributed...thanks! ..... support is invaluable.



Got to agree ........... teamwork is what this site is all about 8)

Nice going Zee 

CC


----------



## arnoldb

Very good going Zee - your machining skills are definitely improving Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## RobWilson

Very nice work Zee :bow: :bow: :bow: great job


Regards Rob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil, black85vette, Artie, CC, Arnold and Rob. Your comments are very much appreciated.

It's your support that helps me get through the tough times. One of which I'm experiencing right now. But I won't sully this post with my rant....no...I'll use another post. That way, if necessary, a moderator can delete it without removing my thanks to you all.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

:rant:

Dad blasted, &%^$m stinking, (&*^, piece of (*&^, rotten (*&^, no good, )(&*^, crummy, (*&^, something or other...

Well...it didn't start out that way...it started out as...wow...cool...going good...oh man....neat...unbelievable...

But it ended up as...Dad blasted, stinking, piece of, rotten no good....

Well you get the picture. You've all been there. (I'll be here again.)

Anyway...I knew it was wrong...I did!...but I followed the instructions...

1) Mill a piece of rectangular aluminum stock to 5/8 width. Eh...a little shy. I okay.
2) Put in the 4-jaw.
3) Center it.
4) Face it to clean.
5) Turn end down to 0.19. Spot on!
6) Chamfer end and round it.

This is where the 'wow' was. Pretty happy with the rounded end.
Here come the instructions...

7) Flip and put in 3-jaw.
8) Face to size and turn the boss.
9) Drill.

Uh...the 3-jaw is going to hold onto a 0.19 diameter, 0.27 long piece of aluminum while I turn the 1x.375x.63 that's hanging off of it?

Okay.

But not okay...in no time at all the piece was cockeyed in the chuck and that fine looking rounded end was ruined.

Which brings me back to "Dad blasted, stinking, piece of, rotten no good...."

Yes I knew it was going to go awry. I have proved it was going to go awry. I've said it before...the instructions are lousy.

But I was sneaky...I bought extra material when I got the kit. I shall prevail. ;D

[EDIT: Couple of pics...]







And the carnage. Some of you may note a 50cent Australian coin. A member (sorry for forgetting who) asked for a $1 Australian. Sorry. My buddy at work is cheap. You'll also note it's upside down. Just giving back a little. ;D


----------



## rake60

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> :rant:
> 
> Dad blasted, &%^$m stinking, (&*^, piece of (*&^, rotten (*&^, no good, )(&*^, crummy, (*&^, something or other...



But other than that, how was your evening Zee? LOL

You are doing great.
Taking us along for the ride is priceless!
The world is full of experts who can tell any of us how to do it perfectly.
Did they do it perfectly the first time? Only they can answer that question.
If they say YES... Well I guess anything is possible...

Great thread!
Keep the updates coming.

Rick


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
Figuring out how to hold onto a part while you slice and dice away at it is a big part of doing an engine from castings. I'm an expert because I started my first one a week ago . Luckily : I broke a tap in the base casting so I have a lot of time to think about these things :'( :'( :'(. I do think I can rescue the project and have a tap extractor coming soon. It's all about solving problems as they come up right?

Cheers and continue success (despite the minor hurdles)
Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Rick. Evening is going okay. Was talking to a friend...I'm thinking the next time I'm going to try making the part out of round stock. Always nice to have a plan.

Phil Thanks! Good luck with the tap extractor. I went on a hunt to see what 'Abyssus Abyssum Invocat' meant. During the hunt I came across the following which I found very meaningful for me at work...so thank you very much...

"While teaching, people learn."

I'm certainly not a teacher on this forum...but I do a lot of teaching in my work (software engineer)...and this explains another reason why I enjoy it.


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
I first encountered the expression "'Abyssus Abyssum Invocat'" in Stephen Kings book Duma Key. He used it in the context that "one misstep follows another" which is quite true especially in the machining world.  

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## cobra428

I found a latin to english translater site and this is what it came up with.

Hell Hell Invocation

Tony


----------



## Philjoe5

Tony,
That's the origin of the quote from one of proverbs that means "one hell follows another".  It seems quite appropriate to hacking at bits of metal. Now back to channel Zee, ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## mklotz

Zee,

Is it possible that the instructions contain a typo and 

"Flip and put in 3-jaw."

should have read:

Flip and put in 4-jaw.

I know I can't talk you out of your stubborn resolution to follow the instructions but this one is just too stupid to be anything but a blatant mistake. I'm certain nobody ever built an engine from those instructions. 

The steam chest is a very visible part of this engine. I doubt that you're going to want all those indentations from the chuck jaws on it. Cut up a soda can or some sheet copper and make yourself some protective shims.

You're going to have to drill a long hole through the steam chest for the valve rod. This hole penetrates into the rounded tenon you're making. In order to drill that hole and not have it break through the rounded tenon end, you'll need to think about some way of accurately measuring drill depth on your tailstock. You'll want to drill it immediately after turning the tenon on the other end of the chest so that it's concentric with the packing nut.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

"Abyssus Abyssum Invocat" Some you are getting a little 'deep' with this. :big:

Not a typo Marv. Picture shows a 3-jaw holding onto that itty-bitty bit of metal. Not a blalant mistake...it's actually that stupid.

Obvious to you...I've been learning (something) so I knew too...but the next poor soul to get this kit may not have a clue.

I could have done it differently right off the bat...but from the next poor soul's point of view...he'd have to ask "Why is this newbie not following the instructions? What? He thinks he knows more than the guy who wrote them?". So to some extent I must 'show' the consequences (when safety is not compromised).

On a similar note...the instructions talked about sanding the sides after milling to size and before chucking for turning. Wouldn't it have been better to finish (sand) after the machining?

I had thought about flipping it in the 4-jaw. The only concern I had was getting the ends concentric for the drilling operation...although getting it centered at the rounded tenon is not critical.

But I think I'll use 3/4" or 1" round for my do-over.

Thanks for the tip on drilling.

As for the 'stubborn resolution to follow the instructions'...I protest! Please put a 'once' after the word 'instructions'. ;D
(I have a third kit waiting in the wings...I expect whatever resolution I have to be beaten into submission much modified by then ;D)


----------



## mklotz

You don't have to actually *make* the mistakes in order to point them out to those who come after you. Just say something like, "Using all the extensive experience gained so far, it was obvious that the method suggested in the instructions was total BS, so I ..."

Re "flipping it in the 4J"...

There are at least two approaches...

Put some small centers in the block when you are milling the ends. Easy to get them aligned if you use a vise stop to locate the block. Drill a center, flip stock and align against stop, drill a center. The center on the rounded tenon end gets machined away. The center on the other end gets a hole drilled through it. You'll need a pump center or equivalent to get the centers running true.

Square or rectangular stock can be centered in the 4J. Perhaps contrary to instinct, you want to test against the sides of the stock and not the edges. Adding a patented Klotz "flapper"

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2302.msg19441#msg19441

to your centering DI can make this process a lot easier.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Okay okay. Gee whiz. ;D

"Using all the extensive modicum of experience gained so far, it was obvious well hidden that the method suggested in the instructions was total BS stinky, so I ... listened to the knowledgeable ones on the forum and did it anyway". ;D

As for the 4-jaw...their method was to put a 'stop block' in a tool holder and bring it up to the side of the stock and note the dial. Rotate the stock 180, note the dial, take half...and so on. I just used an empty tool holder. For whatever reason, it wasn't easy...I kept being off by the same amount no matter what I did. I also noticed that the stock might tilt or move when coming up against it. (I didn't think the edge would be the place to be...but I can see why one might.) I didn't like the method...

Which is why I was very happy to see your 'flapper' tip. That is great. Thanks! What's the fee for licensing?


----------



## mklotz

> Which is why I was very happy to see your 'flapper' tip. That is great. Thanks! What's the fee for licensing?



For you? Free. Lord knows you've paid enough dues already.  But you have to scratch "Klotz's flapper" on it with a scribe so that future archaeologists, digging it from a 21st century tell, will think it was a votive object associated with worship of a god with a really, really funny name. (I've always had this sneaking suspicion that the guy who chiseled the Rosetta stone was a practical joker and all the hieroglyphics on the tomb walls really spell out dirty Egyptian limericks.)

I think demonstrating to TWCBY (new acronym, Those Who Come Behind You) that part of what you learned along the way was to critically analyze what you're told by the "authorities" (the manual in this case) and dismiss the advice when you know it will be unsafe for either the operator or the intended part is one of the key skills they must develop as well as they traverse the sisyphean construction of their first engines. [I think I've just set a new record for sentence length.]


----------



## vlmarshall

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I've always had this sneaking suspicion that the guy who chiseled the Rosetta stone was a practical joker and all the hieroglyphics on the tomb walls really spell out dirty Egyptian limericks.


 ;D Awesome. ;D


----------



## Artie

mklotz  said:
			
		

> (I've always had this sneaking suspicion that the guy who chiseled the Rosetta stone was a practical joker and all the hieroglyphics on the tomb walls really spell out dirty Egyptian limericks.)



I think many would be surprised how accurate this tongue in cheek comment actually is...... Im partly indigenous Aussie and as such have a little understanding of the meanings hidden in our indigenous artwork.

On a recent visit to the famous rock paintings in Kakadu National Park in the Northern Territory here in Aus I was amused to see ancient rock paintings which the local white 'experts' had gleened to depict old hunting scenes... with my Racial Memory I was able to read a different message... Most of it was along the lines of George W is an idiot etc etc etc Obama didnt fair well either...Tony Blair??? Well..I wont go there as there are ladys and children on this forum sometimes.....


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, from watching your "adventures", and reading your many posts, I get the idea you're fairly easy going. Mainly because you continue to take the abuse handed you from the person that wrote up the instructions! It's a shame they charge for this. If they're taking your money, the least they could do is provide you with a bobby-trap-free write up. I've got lots of instruction-ish articles on my web pages, but at least if I make a mistake, someone else doesn't have to pay for it..

I understand wanting to do it "by the book". Good on you. Being a martyr for the next new builder is making a lot of work for you, though. It's your party, of course, but if you see something that looks wrong, it probably is, (just like you thought with this last part. See, you're wise.).  Possibly, besides being instructional to others, one of the outcomes will be to warn them off this kit.



> But I was sneaky...I bought extra material when I got the kit. I shall prevail.


Well, maybe that was their cunning plan... To get newer builders to buy more of their stuff. That's just not fair play.

Despite all the efforts of the person who wrote the instructions, you still end up with good parts. You're doing well. Keep up the good work. (Watch for pitfalls.)

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. I think I need to reread some of your posts. ;D
Thanks Vernon.
Thanks Artie.
Thanks Dean. Actually, the extra material was from a different company. Yeah...I kind of figured it wouldn't go well...but six months ago I would have had no idea.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

And now a song...

To the tune of 'Found a Peanut'...

chucked a part up
center drilled it
got a drill bit
started drilling
pecked away at it
broke the drill bit
threw the part away
   ...sing!!!...
cursed a hot one
kicked myself again
got another bit
repeat

rats ;D


----------



## rleete

I do like the fact that you're showing both the good and the bad. I can imagine most of the stuff as being things I might do, and it shows that it takes a while to aquire the skills.

Some other places have long build threads (not necessarily engines or models), and you'd think they could have done the project in a weekend, judging by how perfectly everything apparently went for them. It almost sounds effortless, with no broken tools, missed dimensions or other mistakes.



Edit: About the song. Don't quit your day job.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> And now a song...
> 
> To the tune of 'Found a Peanut'...



I read this post this morning before heading into the shop. Hadn't heard that song since I was a kid. 
Heard it all--day--long today, though...


----------



## rake60

Rof}

Zee do you have any idea how hard it is to dial in a finish cut with
eyes fogged from laughing?

Sometimes I think I'm getting too old for this stuff, but loving 
every minute of it!

Thanks again for a much needed smile Zee!

Rick


----------



## zeeprogrammer

rleete: Darn. There go my dreams of being the next Tom Jones.
Dean: Same here. The song is still rattling around the noggin.
Rick: Thanks!

So here's attempt #2. Using round stock this time. Here are the ends. I should have turned the body down to make sure it was true. I also should have used a different turning tool and put more of a radius on.












I then went to drill the little bugger. It was at this point where I became inspired to write a song.

So with my 3rd attempt, I did turn the body down before doing the ends. (But still have a sharp corner.) And went to drill with my 'newly purchased over lunch time' drill bit.

Lesson...I ran the chuck at highest speed...I used cutting fluid throughtout...I used smaller pecks (like I was afraid it might be a bug), I brushed the bit often. It went a whole lot easier.

So on to milling the sides. Almost ruined it. Got mixed up on the measurements and luckily realized before I'd gone to far.






And here it (they) are so far...






Left: Opportunity for the knowledgeable ones to smack my forehead.
Middle: I don't know how to describe it other than more opportunity for the knowledgeable ones to smack my forehead.
Right: So far so good.

Next shop time I get will be drilling the corner holes, milling the center, and drilling the side hole.

Well...that or another song.


----------



## Philjoe5

Nice work Zee.  Thm: Keep it going!

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Cedge

Zee....
I'm not sure if you are driving Marv or me crazier. In places, this thread has been almost agonizing as we've watched you drive head long into places most of us avoid like a hot Ebola zone. I've managed to hold my opinions to myself as long as you are managing to retain all your digits and the large bruise on your mid forehead hasn't erupted into a puddle of pulp. 

In a distant former life, I suspect you were possibly a devoutly zealous monk of some self flagellant monastic order. .....LOL. It's the only thing I can come up with that explains the pleasure you've gotten from forcing such a difficult learning experience. 

I think I get it.... the "TWCBY" thing... but it sure seems like a terribly stressful choice for getting to where you're trying to go. Nice work so far and fascinating to watch, this build, even when I'm flinching.....(grin)

Marv.... 
Hang in there. I'm feeling your pain, friend..... LOL

Steve


----------



## Deanofid

The finished piece looks good, Zee. Actually, from what I see in the pic, really good.

I can't tell how big it is. That furrin coin could be anywhere from 1/2" to 6" in diameter. (g)

I understand you had troubles drilling that deep hole... Once little drill bits get in more than about four or five diameters, you can save on the breakage by cleaning the hole every diameter's worth of depth, (as it seems you've found out). It involves a lot of cranking on the tail stock ram, but it saves on bits. You have to crank it all the way out to clean the flutes each time.
If you are making pretty small holes that go fairly deep, one way to make the job a little quicker is to use a pin vise to hold your drill bit. Drill the hole initially, for about the first five diameters as you normally would with the tail stock. Then, put your drill bit in a pin vise that will fit into the drill chuck in the tail stock. Leave the drill chuck loose on the pin vise. You just use the drill chuck to guide the pin vise, not grip it. Run the tail stock up to where the drill bit tip almost enters the hole, and feed the pin vise/drill bit into the hole by hand pressure, held between your fingers. You can push it in and out pretty quickly this way to clean out the hole and drill flutes. If the bit should stick in the hole, the pin vise will just spin in the drill chuck, and you can turn off the lathe and back it out. Again, that only works for small holes, but it may come in handy sometime. 
Someday, you can get a sensitive drill attachment to fit your tail stock and it will do the same thing even easier.

Again, nice looking part!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil.

Steve...c'mon! You're just watching someone learn. It's like sending the kid out to the backyard. He's going to do stupid things and come back with scratches and cuts. 'pleasure?' Believe me, I've had my moments of frustration, anger, and doubt. (It's the doubt that worries me.)

I'm that kid. I may 'think' something doesn't seem right but when in doubt I'm going to side with the purported experts. I don't have the knowledge or experience yet to 'know' there's a better way. (But if I even think safety is at risk...I'll ask more questions.)

I have to admit I have the same problem at work with inexperienced associates. I sometimes want to say "what in the world are you thinking?". I always try to remember "it's very difficult to remember what you didn't know".

I'd like to think I'm not doing anything any different from any one else who's starting out and teaching themselves this craft. Let me know if I am. (But try to be kind...the doubt level is at risk and exponentially proportional.)

Thanks for the support and I hope to cause less pain as I go along. Actually, my goal is to convert the pain from one of "I can't believe he did something that stupid" to a pain of "I can't believe he did something that awesome". Might be a while though. ;D

Thanks Dean. Yeah, as I was posting the pics I thought I should have included my 0.75" penny. The body of the part is 1.0 x 0.625 x 0.31 (give or take ;D). I'm always surprised by how small the parts are. The part looks decent enough but the surface of the milled areas isn't as smooth as I'd hoped.

Thanks for the tips on drilling. I hope to avoid Herman's "2nd verse...same as the 1st".


----------



## Cedge

Zee....
No offense intended and no condemnation coming from this front.... trust me. I've already had the pleasure of climbing the steep side of the learning curve. The annoying frustration and those doubts are still fresh in memory. I had the "advantage" of taking on a number of non engine projects where my own ideas were the only guide, so the idea of strictly following the paths of others never took root. Those projects all had to be adapted as I went along. The frustration levels were probably higher but the results were often higher than I expected too. 

Not having the benefit of experienced hands sharing advice slowed things considerably and cost me a bit more in broken tooling and a couple of un-needed machine failures, but it didn't stop me. Once I found this forum and the likes of the Bogster, George Seal and Marv, to name only a couple of many very important contributors, their sage counsel accelerated my climb until I gained the confidence to trust my own instincts.

I'm actually admiring your aggressive attack on the learning curve. More so because I so recently traveled the path you're now battling your way down. Having a strong sense of humor certainly helps....LOL.

Steve


----------



## vlmarshall

:bow: Great work Zeep. You're not just climbing the "Learning Curve", you're carving steps into it. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Steve and Vernon.

I should know better than to try and write anything at 1:30 in the morning after a full evening of liquid refreshment and a tear-jerker of a movie. Sorry if my response came across as if I were offended.

No offense was taken. None. And a big reason I joined this forum is the obvious support provided to the beginner without judgment. Again...thank you all.

The learning is fun and I'm having fun with it.


----------



## arnoldb

You're getting there Zee ;D - the third valve chest part looks good - some minimal work with emery & oil on a flat surface will make it shine.

And you have definitely started to get the "feel" - even the "gut feel" is coming through. That one can be important - I can't explain why - it just is; it's worth listening to.

Thanks for all the smiles  - have to search for that "peanut" song; If I can learn to whistle it, it would be fun to teach to Shrek 

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## CrewCab

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The learning is fun and I'm having fun with it.



When the "Fun" disappears that's the time to quit ........... keep up the good work Zee I'm certainly enjoying the ride 8)

CC


----------



## Artie

Well done Zee.. its nice to listen (read?) the thoughts of a guy who not only can learn but also listens and goes out of his way to assist.... nice Aussie 50c piece there mate :big: 

Incidentally..Aussies have absolutely NO idea about coins sizes..... our $2 coin is smaller than our $1 coin and that 50c piece is bigger again.... go figure..im Aussie and I have no idea..... nice work mate, enjoying watching your progress...


----------



## Deanofid

Artie  said:
			
		

> Incidentally..Aussies have absolutely NO idea about coins sizes..... our $2 coin is smaller than our $1 coin and that 50c piece is bigger again.... go figure..im Aussie and I have no idea..... nice work mate, enjoying watching your progress...



Similar goofiness here in the USA, Artie. Our 10 cent piece is smaller than both our 5 cent and 1 cent piece. The last couple of one dollar coins issued have both been almost the same size as our 25 cent piece and both smaller than the 50 cent. 
The people here do seem to know what they want in our coinage though, even if the gubment completely ignores them. The last two dollar coins introduced have been well rejected by the citizens and see almost no use. 

Maybe we should all use something that is common to all of us. I understand that M&M's sell in every country..


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold. Happy when I keep seeing progress. Careful with the 'peanut' song...it can get stuck. 

Thanks CC. You're very right.

Thanks for the support Artie.

Dean...try a Minstrel...bigger and better.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

3rd attempt at Steam Chest. But I won't keep you in suspense. It was successful and I'm pretty pleased with it.

A few interesting problems that had to be worked out. The instructions weren't the clearest in this area...I'll point them out when I get to the pics. Many thanks to 'beerless' one for his help and answering my many questions.

First issue was supporting the part while drilling the four corner clearance holes. Instructions showed parallels...but if they weren't thin enough...the drill would hit them. So I used two tall parallels in the center, a bit of foam, and a shorter parallel at each side. Then made sure I didn't drill too far.






The instructions 'put aside' the steam chest at three different points in the process. I couldn't figure out why. They were doing the cover and porting plate. After I did the clearance holes I realized it would have made it easier to do the 3 parts in sequence and use a vise stop. All three parts have holes in the same place so it would have meant less edge finding and more accuracy.

Next issue was the through pocket. Same problem as before with support. The parallels would be in the way. So I shimmed the sides by .063 (combination of shims gave me the same offset on both). 'Beerless' one is wanting me to mill a step in my vise or to make some soft jaws with a step in them. Sounds like a good idea. That would have solved this too.






These are the corner holes for the pocket...






Milled the pocket. This caused a lack of oxygen due to my holding my breath a lot. I plunged cut around the pocket (slightly undersize) and then did a finish pass.






No pic of the side hole and threading. Used a 1/4" collet to hold the tapping tool in the mill.

Then off to sanding. The result...






The pocket came out 2 or 3 undersized in width and within a thou of length. Similarly for the outer dimensions. The only question I have is whether I got into the tenon far enough with the drill.

So...feeling good...no new song. I hope this didn't make anyone flinch too much. :big:

Folks are arriving today for a week's stay...I doubt I'll get anything done.


----------



## arnoldb

Well done Zee Thm:


----------



## vlmarshall

Another great-looking part! Nice post too, except for the bit about "Beerless". *beer*


----------



## JimN

looking great Zee


----------



## steamer

Looking good Zee!


Don't pay Cedge no never mind....... ;D 

Your doing fine..

Dave


----------



## Deanofid

You did that pocket gooood, Zee. The whole part looks very nice!

Glad there's no new song. I almost had the old one out of my peanut brain until you mentioned it...

Dean


----------



## Krown Kustoms

The pocket looks great, and the final part looks perfect.
I cant wait to see it attached.
-B-


----------



## mklotz

SWMBO dragged me out of town for a weekend but I'm back now.



> First issue was supporting the part while drilling the four corner clearance holes. Instructions showed parallels...but if they weren't thin enough...the drill would hit them. So I used two tall parallels in the center, a bit of foam, and a shorter parallel at each side. Then made sure I didn't drill too far.



Sit chest on sacrificial plate supported by parallels.

or

Make sacrificial parallels of aluminum.

or

Make stepped parallels of aluminum... Two pieces of ~1/4" plate milled flat, clamp together in vise and run a 1/8" endmill down the line where they abut. Result is stepped sacrificial parallels

or

Buy set of cheap 1/32" thick Chinese parallels from Enco. Every modelmaker needs a set of these.

Did you remember to mill clockwise around the chest opening so you weren't climb milling?



> The only question I have is whether I got into the tenon far enough with the drill.



I generally drill the hole after milling out the cavity. That way I can touch off the drill tip on the inside of the cavity and get a clear zero for the depth measurement. Although this violates my rule of "drill first, then mill", in this case it saves one the agony of deep hole drilling with a small drill and allows a more accurate zeroing as mentioned.

The chest looks great. But next time I hope you'll start with a rectangular blank so you can get comfortable with centering stuff like that in the 4J.


----------



## Cedge

> Don't pay Cedge no never mind....... Grin



I agree whole heartedly.... that Cedge guy can be a PITA....LOL

Nice going Zee.... beginning to see you peeking outside the box?

Steve


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much all. The support is fantastic and it means a lot.
This is great fun....just really great fun.
Thank you.


----------



## tel

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The pocket came out 2 or 3 undersized in width and within a thou of length. Similarly for the outer dimensions. The only question I have is whether I got into the tenon far enough with the drill.



Aha! So that's what it was - I was trying to get my head around just what you were doing when you were having trouble a few pages back. Still, you won thru' in the end, and very nicely as well.

That said, I never carve steam chests out of the solid like that, but put the stuffing box and tail piece (if any) in as separate pieces, silver soldered it. OK, you are using aluminium, but that could be either threaded together, or use a light press fit and a cross stake. Something you might like to try some time further down the track.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tel. I remember those steam chests from your own thread.

Well...somehow I managed the valve for the steam chest. (Actually won't know until I put the engine together.)

The instructions (there's that word again) talked about a piece of stock that had 5/8" extra length for chucking. The part that came with the kit didn't. Itty bitty thing about .375x.375x.31. I could not get my head around how to mill the thing and keep it square. Instructions put it in a vise...sticking out the side. Milled the four sides, the end, then used a saw to make the two slots. I couldn't figure it out. Clamping on the unmilled chucking material (had there been any) could not have kept it square.

So I got some advice. I ended up cutting a new piece of stock from some .375 square bar (resulting in the question about the band saw) that was about 5/8 longer. Then I put it in the vise (with a piece of scrap on the other end - which the instructions failed to mention). I milled the four sides...






And then milled the top. Then I milled the slots. One of the slots was supposed to be 0.1". In looking at the assembly, I couldn't understand why it was smaller than an 1/8" mill. No need for it. So I made it 0.125.

The bad news is that when I went to mill the first slot...I saw I was off by about 0.03" from center. I had used an edge finder to get there. Did it twice and was still off. I think I have a major issue with the mill. Not the tram...but the edge finder is used with a chuck and the spindle is much higher. When bringing the head down for the 1/8" end mill...it didn't stay at the same X,Y spot. I didn't want to get into this right now. I have plans to break the mill down and do it up after the project. So I put the edge finder in a collet so that the Z distance (and error) would be much smaller. Not perfect. But it should work.

That's right folks. Zeep has come out of the box! (But I will scurry back on occasion.)






Then I used a slitting saw to chop it off.






Then flipped it over onto some parallels, milled the top to size, and then milled the pocket.






That could have gone better. But only if I'd been a better and more experienced machinist. The height turned out a little shy of 0.25 and the legs got mashed a little. I was able to correct the legs...but still. Also, still need to improve accounting for backlash. You can tell the pocket is just a little off.











I used a penny. A stationary M&M in this house is unheard of.

[EDIT: Rats. Took a look at the posting. The pictures are a little blurry. The part actually looks pretty good.]

[EDIT: Managed some better shots.]


----------



## Deanofid

Hey, that thing looks just like what those kind of things are supposed to look like!

Yer doing awright, Zee.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Funny that Dean! Wife got home from a trip and I showed her my new part. All she could say was ..."that looks like a real thing". Thanks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I can't help myself...it's time for a song...

To the tune of 'On Top Of Spaghetti'...

Everybody SING!!!...

On top of my tool post
All covered in swarf.
There sat my good flywheel
When somebody coughed.

It rolled off the quick change
and dented the ways.
And then my good flywheel
Went rolling away.

It went through some portal
and like any good hound,
I chased and chased it
But it couldnt be found.

I used Marvs great programs,
hes such a great guy.
I made a new flywheel
Cause he hates me to buy.

And Vernons a big help
His wife says hes dear.
But hell continue to owe me
Til he pays me that beer.

So if you do machining
And know a vise is a vice,
Stay on Ricks forum
And heed their advice.

The end.
.....
No need to say anything...you'll just make me cry.


----------



## Cedge

Zee
To quote Dr. Hook.....
Awwwww maaaaannn ....Thasss beautiiiful!!

Steve


----------



## vlmarshall

Yep, I can see him now, on the cover of _Rolling Stone_. ;D


----------



## Twmaster

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I can't help myself...it's time for a song...



{little boy's voice}

Do we have to Mr. Zee??? :hDe:


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I can't help myself...it's time for a song...
> 
> To the tune of 'On Top Of Spaghetti'...
> 
> Everybody SING!!!...
> 
> On top of my tool post
> All covered in swarf.
> There sat my good flywheel
> When somebody coughed.




I come back from an extended road trip and find Zee has . . . 
Maybe a double shot of tequila and I too might be singing da song


This is way past Hooked on Milling


Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Steve...Dr Hook. Well that reference took me down memory lane for a while. Spent some time listening to youtube. That was great. I hadn't heard that group in years and years.

Vernon...yeah...is a great song.

Mike...Mr. Zee is reserved for my Dad. Only boys calling on my daughter can call me that. You're not calling on my daughter are you? Are you? I don't want some model engineer calling on my daughter. They're no good. They're only interested in their little engines. ;D

Foozer!...Welcome back. What happened to your avatar? Lose it on the road trip? Watcha been up to? Watcha going to be up to?


----------



## kvom

The valve came out fine, but I would have done the milling in a different order:

1) mill the block to finish dimensions

2) mill the bottom pocket

3) Cut the cross slots

No danger of mashing the legs that way.

You should be getting close to having a runner it seems.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks kvom.

Not sure about that though. To do the pocket would have meant removing the material that was being used to hold the part in the vise. There wouldn't be a lot to hold onto when doing the slots. That's actually why I felt I had to leave the instructions. I couldn't figure out how to hold onto the part.

One of the slots was dimensioned to be .11 and the other .135. The .11 slot I had widened to .125. I'm thinking it would have helped to use that slot and sit the part on a 1/8 wide parallel and clamp on that.

As for being close...I still have some 14 parts to make. At my rate, that should provide at least two more songs to abuse this forum with. :big:


----------



## shred

You could bury the part in the vise jaws, cut one slot the length of the vise, rotate the part 90 and cut the other slot. You have to worry about collapsing the part with too much vise pressure, but then you have more to hold onto. I did that on at least one Elmer's Engines valve.


----------



## kvom

If you cut the slots in the Y direction, against the jaws, then you need a lot less clamping pressure. That applies to most milling with small parts. Shred's method is also good.

My main point is that it's a lot easier to hit the desired dimensions when you're working with a bar.


----------



## mklotz

Congrats on departing from the evil instructions. How was it? Intoxicating like your first vodka? This thinking for yourself can be addictive so be careful.

Your valve looks fine and should work well. 

I would have done it just a tiny bit differently. This is a perfect example of my dictum:

NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO DO SO.

Cut the end of your starting stock to the final size of the D-valve (as you did).

Instead of cutting the slots in the end of this piece, cut them in the side of the piece near one end, said end hanging outboard of the vise.

Flip the stock over in the vise (slots now pointing down) and mill the pocket.

Mill, rather than saw, the part free from the parent stock. Sawing leaves an edge that often must be cleaned up which implies further clamping and the risk of deformation. Milling leaves a finished edge on the part so no further clamping of the part is required.

Sand the working face of the valve with a bit of very fine emory on a flat plate so the valve can seat perfectly on the valve plate.

One slot (probably the 1/8") is for the valve adjusting nut. It needs to be a good sliding fit on the nut. The other slot is merely clearance for the (threaded) valve rod that threads into the nut. Its dimension, within reason, isn't terribly critical.

Ideally, the pocket should be symmetrically placed with respect to the nut slot. But one of the beauties of D-valves is the adjustability offered by the threaded rod and this adjustability can be used to compensate for minor errors in the relative placement of the two features.

Thanks for including me in your song. My wife has always told me that I would achieve some small measure of fame in my lifetime. I just didn't realize how small it would be when it finally happened.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Foozer!...Welcome back. What happened to your avatar? Lose it on the road trip? Watcha been up to? Watcha going to be up to?



Avatar was a tad bandwidth happy, got ta make another little less in the moving parts bit.

Little thousand mile road trip tp Sac, Ca. just a there and back for no reason. Kinda stopped at every rest stop along the way to check out the scenery and have a reason for the trip. Hmm is that a reason?

Getting too cold for barn work, If i.m real sweet on the Bride, she may let me move the lathe into the house. Ah such are the dreams of mad men

You coming right along fancy with your project i see. Lot less "Wall of Shame Learning" objects. Good work Zee

Robert


----------



## arnoldb

Very good going Zee Thm: - And like Marv said on the instructions 

 Rof} Rof} LOVE THAT SONG!

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks shred, kvom, marv, foozer, and arnold.

In thinking some more about this, it indeed would have been better to do the pocket first. Mill sides square, mill pocket, part it off, then put in vise upside down to mill to size, and then put in deeper into vise for slotting.

As can been seen, there's several viable approaches.

The slot for the adjusting nut is 0.135. The other slot was supposed to be 0.11 but I made it 0.125.

If I'd thought too much for myself...I'd probably be shy a finger or two. I listen (or read) from supposed experts (i.e. the instructions) until I develop enough skill and confidence to experiment.

But to your point Marv...it IS rewarding when, after having developed those skills and confidence, you can move forward on your own.

The song was fun...maybe I should try a poem sometime. ;D

Ah Robert...you haven't read the entire thread then. The ratio of good parts to bad parts is still 1-to-1 so my Wall is still increasing at a good pace.

Checking out scenery is an excellent reason. Hope you had a good trip. Also hope you get the lathe moved and can have some machining fun during the winter.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

And speaking of my ratio of good parts to bad parts...here's the next good:bad part...







I need to get a better setup for picture taking.

This is the Slide Block.

The bad part (aw c'mon...it's the one on the right) is the one I snapped the tap in.

A good pal sent me a little box of goodies...one goodie being an engraving tool that I used to mill the 45 degree angles. He also sent me a 1/32 end mill which I need to continue the Porting Plate.

And yes...he's the same guy that sent me that bottlecap you see in the picture. The same guy that sent me a paper model of a beer. The same guy who owes me beer and is now (along with Marv) immortalized in song.

Thanks Vernon. ;D


----------



## mklotz

> The song was fun...maybe I should try a poem sometime.



Mendelssohn made himself famous with Die Lieder ohne Worten. Take him as your model.

Poetry? I like cheery, upbeat stuff like this...

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

  -- Dorothy Parker


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Dorothy Parker!!! Great one Marv. That brought back some memories when I met my wife. Thanks!

And here's another part...






This has changed my ratio of good to bad. Nothing to the right of it. Nothing to the left of it. And to quote another famous mammal ;D, "Nothing up my sleeve". No bad part! (No fair counting the part you see!!!)

However...this does not mean that more do-overs of already made parts are not in my future. You might not be able to tell, but the hole is not on center top to bottom. This is an attempt to account for the valve being 0.02 short. My hope is that by making the nut 0.02 bigger below the hole, it will set the valve at the correct spot on the port cover. We'll see. To be honest...I have no idea if it even makes a difference.


----------



## mklotz

That nut floats in the D-valve. The valve is free to move (slightly) up and down on the nut. This is so the valve can be pressed down by the steam/air pressure to create a better seal. Since the valve pocket is always over the exhaust channel (at atmospheric pressure) and the top of the valve is exposed to the (higher than atmospheric) pressure in the steam chest, the valve is always pressed down against the valve plate by the pressure differential because it's free to slide on the valve nut.
The animation at:

http://www.animatedengines.com/locomotive.shtml

shows what I'm talking about.

The net effect is that, *within reason*, it just doesn't matter where the hole in that nut is. If, however, the hole misplacement causes the nut to ride against the steam chest cover, thus creating friction, that will have to be fixed.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Good to know and very helpful.

I've seen that site before and it's very helpful to people new to steam engines (like me).

No problem as far as the steam chest cover. The hole wasn't misplaced...that is, I didn't move it relative to the top of the nut. The distance form hole to top of the nut is as shown by the drawings. I just added another .02 to the total height of the material and made sure it was all at the bottom.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Ah Robert...you haven't read the entire thread then. The ratio of good parts to bad parts is still 1-to-1 so my Wall is still increasing at a good pace.
> 
> Checking out scenery is an excellent reason. Hope you had a good trip. Also hope you get the lathe moved and can have some machining fun during the winter.



Shes brib'able 

got my own wall of shame item. Changed the cam in the car before took trip and used that synthetic oil, ah WRONG, not with flat tappets (SBC) Time for another cam change as number 3 exhaust is flat as an unleavened biscuit. But the trip down the coast hyw was fun, refreshing and way over do.

Ah your going gang busters, just watch the over confidence factor, well its gonna happen anyway, just ride with it.

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Another part and a half! A cylinder.
We won't talk much about that 'half' a part. Poor job drilling the cylinder hole.

So here it is...






Rather than drill the cylinder, I bored it after drilling 0.25 and then 0.34. The instructions had you do the bore first but I remembered what happened when I did the launch engine...drilling and tapping the holes around the cylinder hole might have caused bulges.

I had two scares during this...one was when the air compressor went off (I'd forgotten to turn it off and it leaks a bit). There's a slight dent in the drop-down ceiling above me now. The second scare was during the sanding of the cylinder. I noticed it wasn't completely square...it had a slight tilt to it. I don't know what I did wrong but I was really lucky. The tilt was to the side. So I put it in the mill and shaved off the ends using the flycutter. Maybe .005 to .007 on either end. This left the part usable and looking good.

Almost had a couple of 'aw rats'. One was usng a steel ball bearing as a tooling ball. I almost didn't take into account the diameter of the ball. Even worse...the process required tilting the part at an angle and I almost set the angle wrong. It wasn't supposed to be 58 but 90-58. I used angle plates.

Here it is is with some other parts trial fitted...I haven't polished the cover or valve port and the hose couplings could use a better polish too.






Still have about 9 or 10 parts to do and a few to finish up.

I love this time of year except for one thing...the wildlife likes to find warm places...I'm in the basement...several spiders...a snake went by my foot the other week...mice in the drop-down ceiling the other night (they were really going at it)...had a bird a couple of years ago (no idea how it got down here).


----------



## mklotz

Looking very good. At this rate you'll be done very soon.



> Even worse...the process required tilting the part at an angle and I almost set the angle wrong. It wasn't supposed to be 58 but 90-58.



That's all too easy a mistake to make. DAMHIKT. After constructing an angled setup, I always sanity check my work with one of those digital angle gages. Before I had one of those I used to use one of those analogue types with the weighted pointer and angular scale.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=990-0202&PMPXNO=3009508&PARTPG=INLMK3

The digital one takes up much less headroom so it's preferable.


----------



## arnoldb

That's really looking good Zee Thm:


----------



## RobWilson

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> That's really looking good Zee Thm:



I second that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,nice one Thm: looks like you will be finished in no time 

Regards Rob


----------



## vlmarshall

It's really starting to look "enginey". ;D Congrats.


----------



## Deanofid

Heck yeah, Zee! Looking very good.
What kind of coin is that in the picture?

Dean


----------



## cfellows

Nice progress, Zee. Love the running commentary! You should've been a writer (or maybe you are?).

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv...yes I hope to be done soon...in fact...I should be done in week 23...whenever that is. ;D

Thanks Arnold, Rob, and Vernon.

Thanks Dean. The 'coin' was a gift...worthless maybe...but we have to consider both the giver and the recipient. ;D

Thanks Chuck. Glad you like the commentary. Nope...not a writer...just of 0s and 1s and some text to explain them. ;D

Well here's the next part. Not very good. I rushed it and this resulted in the holes being a tad out of place (not to mention the original part getting trashed). For a replacement I used a previously mangled crankshaft.

Turned it to size and made the 0.025 pilot. Then went to the mill. This could have been a better job. I probably should have made a dent in the part while it was on the lathe and used it in the mill to find the center of the part. Then moved out to drill the four sides. Instead I eye-balled the center using the edge finder. Not good practice but close enough. (I thought about using a wiggler? but I think it's too low a quality to work well enough.) The downside is that any error was compounded by the next operation. I used the vise stop I'd made some time ago. Found where I wanted to put the hole in one corner and then rotated the part to drill each hole. While not critical, I can't say I'm happy with my methods.

Anyway...here's the part...






I had no idea it was this small.

Here it is temporarily mounted on the back...






I nearly destroyed one of the bolts trying to put it in with the cover. So I stopped, found a 2-56 with a socket head and screwed it into each hole to kind of clean it out or work the threads a bit.

Then I used a paper towel and some small pliers to screw each bolt. Tedious and subject to slip.

What do you use to screw such small bolts in? Miniature spanner? Made a tool? And what do you do to protect the finish of the part being bolted?

Thanks.


----------



## RobWilson

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: i must have missed some bits :bow: :bow: looking great ZEE 

Regards Rob


----------



## CrewCab

mklotz  said:
			
		

> My wife has always told me that I would achieve some small measure of fame in my lifetime. I just didn't realize how small it would be when it finally happened.



Just take what you can get Marv ;D  ;D

Zee ................. looking good dude 8)

CC


----------



## BAH101

I saw an article somewhere, and the author used the head of a socket head capscrew. He welded or silver soldered it to a bar and then ground off the threaded portion macking a small wrench. Looked like a great idea for those little hex bolts.
Bryan


----------



## joe d

Zee

Looking good! You can get socket drivers for very small hex heads from Micro fasteners for $4.50.

Keep it up, you're almost done! Some feller will have to send you a beer to go with that bottle cap :big:

Cheers, Joe


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, that's really looking fantastic! It's like you're a machinist or something, man..

You can get little finger wrenches at a hobby shop, (the kind that sells RC planes & cars).  They're a few bucks apiece and looks like this:







Keep going at it. You'll have another runner soon, the way it's coming along now.

Dean


----------



## Cedge

Zee
That little rascal is looking good. I hadn't realized just how small you were working, but you certainly win kudos for the challenge. Check out www.micromark.com . They specialize in miniature tools. You'll find several types of wrenches for small hardware. I've got finger wrenches, driver type and even spanner style which are all used often, depending on a given need. Handy, they are..... yes.

Steve


----------



## vlmarshall

joe d  said:
			
		

> Some feller will have to send you* a* beer to go with that bottle cap.


You said it! ;D Looking good, Zeep!


----------



## mklotz

BAH101  said:
			
		

> I saw an article somewhere, and the author used the head of a socket head capscrew. He welded or silver soldered it to a bar and then ground off the threaded portion macking a small wrench. Looked like a great idea for those little hex bolts.
> Bryan



I've made miniature socket wrenches this way. There's no need to weld or silver solder for these small sizes. Simply drill and tap the handle to match the bolt and secure the bolt with Loctite. 

Wiha are the Cadillac of miniature nut drivers...

http://www.smallparts.com/Wiha-Pico...&pf_rd_i=0&pf_rd_p=467590031&pf_rd_s=center-3

but they're pricey. Moody makes a less expensive set that I can recommend from personal use...

http://www.smallparts.com/Moody-Acu...&pf_rd_i=0&pf_rd_p=467590031&pf_rd_s=center-3


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Wiha are the Cadillac of miniature nut drivers...



Wiha _are_ very nice tools. Their screwdrivers are all I use in my repair work. You only have to buy them once...

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Rob, CC, Bryan, Joe, Steve (Yoda?), and Marv.
Vernon...that 'a' was Joe's typo...not yours ;D.

Dean! Two in one post..."like you're a machinist or something" and an M&M!

Well I may be 'something' but the M&M was low. Low I say. What's the problem? Can't find a tan M&M? :big:

In the meantime...the kit provides a hunk of 1" round by 1.38" long steel to make the cylinder guide. I have to turn it down over a length of 1.13. That leaves 0.25 to hold onto. Are you kidding? I'm tired of the crumbs of metal that you can barely hold onto. I have more metal (and it's going to be 12L14 and not the 1018 that comes with kit)..but the bandsaw blade has now broken...so I must order new.


----------



## Twmaster

Carl...

I think I've got a bar of 1144 Stress proof in 1" diameter. This stuff cuts like butter also. Want me to hack off a suitable size piece and drop it in the mail? I'm just two hours down the road from you....


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ..but the bandsaw blade has now broken...so I must order new.



C'mon, Zee. Two words; hack saw. 
Okay, that's only one word, but use a hacksaw!

You can still cut that little piece, (but a pox on the people who sold you this kit of scrap parts!)

Put it in the three jaw, face it, and center drill one end. Use a block to set it out in the chuck far enough to take the cut you need. (Take the block out before you start the lathe) Or, if you have a spider, use that. Put a center in the tail stock, run the ram out, and use it to steady the end of the piece while you cut. Close quarters working that way, but sometimes you have to work close. Keep the tool out of the chuck jaws..

What's wrong with red M&M's?

Dean


----------



## tel

BAH101  said:
			
		

> I saw an article somewhere, and the author used the head of a socket head capscrew. He welded or silver soldered it to a bar and then ground off the threaded portion macking a small wrench. Looked like a great idea for those little hex bolts.
> Bryan



Might have been one of mine? I had a short article on making these published in MEW, about issue 60 from memory.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I appreciate the offer Mike but I have the metal. It was poor wording on my part when I said I must 'order new'...I meant bandsaw blades.

Dean...nothing wrong with red...but people with discerning taste know that the tan ones are better by far. ;D

Yeah I'm thinking of hacksaw...actually did that to get the little hunk for the cylinder cover I just did. As for the short chunk...I'm going to set it aside and save it for something else. (Maybe for that door that keeps swinging closed ;D). Holding onto .2" and turning down from 1" to 0.44 doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather use the 12L14 I have anyway.

Tel...if it talked about silver soldering then it probably was yours. ;D Yeah the idea was suggested to me but none of my socket head capscrews fit the bolt.

Thanks all.


----------



## mklotz

Pedantic note... What you're calling the "cylinder guide" is usually called the crosshead. Its function is to resist the side forces on the piston rod due to the oscillations of the connecting rod. This minimizes the wear on the seal where the piston rod enters the cylinder. Put more simply ... we want the piston rod moving in a straight line despite that connecting rod that's flailing about.

If you had a longer piece of 1" stock, would you be any better off? Is the spindle bore on your lathe larger than 1"? I'm with Dean - you need the practice with supporting work with the tailstock - for those times when you have no choice and must do it.


----------



## arnoldb

Thats really looking nice when put together Zee :bow:

And like Dean & Marv said 

Regards, Arnold


----------



## Jack B

Hi Carl I was looking at your post as follows.
In the meantime...the kit provides a hunk of 1" round by 1.38" long steel to make the cylinder guide. I have to turn it down over a length of 1.13. That leaves 0.25 to hold onto. Are you kidding? I'm tired of the crumbs of metal that you can barely hold onto. 
Here is a tip that might help. The key to this is being able to make a center hole on one end. Face cut just enough to clean and c-drill. Turn the piece around in the chuck and cut a 1/8 step by about a .625 diameter. Hold the .625 diameter in your 3 jaw chuck close the jaws and press it with your tail stock center. When finished turning the OD put it in the chuck and face off the extra length of stock. I hope this helps.               Jack


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv, I had it wrong anyway. The drawing calls it a 'piston rod guide'. Thanks also for explaining the function of the 'crosshead'.

As for the part...it's worse than I'd said. The 0.25 available for holding onto is closer to 0.1. I'm supposed to clean up some of the outer diameter in order to indicate on it in a later step.

Thanks Arnold. And thanks Dean, Jack, and Marv for the ideas.

In the meantime, I did use a hacksaw and got a longer chunk of 12L14. Sorry for the lack of pics.

After turning the smaller OD I drilled and reamed a 1/8 hole for about 1.25". (More about that later.) I followed this with drilling and reaming a larger hole behind it for 1". The instructions talked about using a boring bar between drilling and reaming the larger hole but I have no boring bar small enough to fit. [...this spot reserved for suggested D-reamers and/or home made boring bars...].

After cleaning up the end I flipped the part in the 3-jaw (using some aluminum strip to grip onto) and indicated off the larger turned end to see if things were still true. The instructions had you go to a 4-jaw but I wanted to see if that was necessary.

I was lucky...the indicator barely moved so I went ahead and trimmed up, faced, and carved the pilot.

Next step is the mill to square the flange and drill the mounting holes...then the windows.

The instructions called for using the Spin Index. But whether Spin Index or collet block, it's a no go. The drawing called for a .44 OD...now had it said, or had I more experience, I might have realized this was .4375 and my collet would fit. So it's going to be V-blocks and light cuts to ensure the part doesn't twist on me.

Now...back to the 1/8 hole. Am I wrong to think that that hole should have been done from the other end? After I flipped the part? It just seems chancy that it would remain concentric after drilling for 1.25.


----------



## mklotz

Well, "piston rod guide" is at least descriptive of the function (which crosshead isn't) so I won't fault them on that one.

Your instincts on the 1/8" hole were spot on. While a pilot hole for the larger hole is ok, the 1/8" hole should have been drilled while holding on to the turned down diameter into which the slots are cut. You want the 1/8" hole parallel and coaxial with the larger hole through the guide.

As to holding it and indexing it to cut the square mount... Please don't tell me you've already cut the part from the parent stock. If it were still attached to the parent, which is presumably of aliquot size, you could simply hold the parent in a collet in the Spindex.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Please don't tell me you've already cut the part from the parent stock. If it were still attached to the parent, which is presumably of aliquot size, you could simply hold the parent in a collet in the Spindex.



Well of course I did. ;D

However, had I squared off the bigger end first, then there would have been no outer OD to indicate on and ensure the pilot was concentric. At which point, someone (maybe even you Marv ;D) would have pointed out that the pilot needed to be turned before moving to the mill. (And we haven't talked about the 4 mounting holes.)

Ah well...for me the big lesson here was seeing that the smaller diameter was going into a collet. (I knew it was going into the Spin Index but I haven't built up the forethought to realize that meant a collet). I should have checked that before taking the part out of the lathe.

I am starting to build a healthy fear of parent stock separation. :big:


----------



## mklotz

> I am starting to build a healthy fear of parent stock separation.



Be afraid. Be very afraid. 

I've said it before but it bears repeating. Before you make the first cut on any part, you should have fixed (on paper or in your mind) exactly how every step in the machining of the part will be carried out - workholding, alignments, cutting tool, etc.. Part of that machining sequence will include when and how to separate from the parent.


----------



## tel

Oh HEAR HEAR HEAR HEAR HEAR!!!! cut from the stock only at the last possible moment, even if the 'parent stock' is just an over length (for the part) piece of material cut from the 'grandparent stock'. The other thing, Zee, is in regard to your collet size woes - even if the trunk diameter had been spec'ed at the 0.44" od, turning it down to fit the nearest available collet (in your case 0.4375") is just plain common sense, and becomes almost automatic after a while.

That said, these off-size specs are a really annoying facet of the modern form of our art, fuelled by the 'automatic' dimensioning of parts in CAD drawings, and the seeming inability of a lot of plan makers to reset the parameters from the (default?) two decimal place resolution to 3 or even 4 decimal places. When. f'rinstance, I'm looking at a plan that calls for a diameter (or length) to be 3/8" then I want to see 0.375 written there,_ not .38" as is becoming more and more prevalent_. PLAN MAKERS PLEASE NOTE!!!!


----------



## mklotz

> Oh HEAR HEAR HEAR HEAR HEAR!!!! cut from the stock only at the last possible moment, even if the 'parent stock' is just an over length (for the part) piece of material cut from the 'grandparent stock'.



I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only old fart preaching this bit of acquired wisdom. Good onya, Tel. Shout it from the rooftops.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I managed a little bit of work tonight and saw that I had taken a picture earlier of the 'crosshead' in making...







The next step was to turn the larger diameter so that it could be used to indicate the center when the part was flipped. After flipping, the part was trimmed down and the pilot carved.

It was at this point that one or two people (read old farts) got up on the rooftop and discussed the merits of not separating parent stock for as long as possible.

Well you can't argue against such good advice but this old fart (me) feels a need to get up on his rooftop and knock a few people off. :big: Had the parent stock been kept and the flange squared off...then the turned larger diameter would no longer be available for indicating. (It doesn't help that had I stayed with the original piece of stock...there wouldn't have been any parent stock to talk about.)

Had I followed through enough with Marv's advice on machining sequence as well as tel's advice on turning down to nearest available collet size...well...I'd be all alone on this rooftop. ;D (Not that I want that...depending on how pretty these guys are...that might be my loss.)

So here's the part after trimming and carving the pilot...






The piece of stock to the left is the original 1018 that seemed to me to be a tad short. I do like that 12L14 stuff.

I wrapped it in aluminum and put it in some V-blocks in the vise. Squared the flange and drilled holes.






I think this turned out better than the cylinder cover but it's still a little off. Shouldn't matter so long as the pilot is right. The clearance holes should be okay.

The bigger problem now is milling the two windows. The drawing shows a 0.03 radius at the corners of the windows. To me this means a 1/16 end mill. But the end mill I have is kind of short...I don't see how this can be done. The 1/8 end mill looks like it can reach from front to back but that means a .06 radius. I suspect this doesn't matter.

Anyway...a job for tomorrow. I shall sleep now and hope my dreams are fart free.


----------



## Deanofid

tel  said:
			
		

> That said, these off-size specs are a really annoying facet of the modern form of our art, fuelled by the 'automatic' dimensioning of parts in CAD drawings, and the seeming inability of a lot of plan makers to reset the parameters from the (default?) two decimal place resolution to 3 or even 4 decimal places. When. f'rinstance, I'm looking at a plan that calls for a diameter (or length) to be 3/8" then I want to see 0.375 written there,_ not .38" as is becoming more and more prevalent_. PLAN MAKERS PLEASE NOTE!!!!



I hear you, and up you a "hear, hear", on this, Tel.  A lot of the stuff I see now days shows the lazy two decimal point dimensioning, and often without any tolerances listed. 
And while we're on dimensioning... extension lines that run all over the drawing and into the part line they are supposed to be calling out. What's happened to drafting conventions?

Zee, this piece looks very nice! 
I haven't seen the prints you are working from, but I assume there will be a bore inside the smaller diameter of the cross head. If the radius of that bore goes past the edge of the slots with the .03" radius, that is, past the edge of the "window", then your 1/16" end mill may reach in far enough to do one side at a time. Make the bore in the piece, then cut the windows. All the metal in the center will be gone after you bore it. You'll have to do the radii on one side of the window, then turn the piece over and do the other. 
You have the square end that you can use to index the two windows.

I could be missing what you're saying about using the 1/16" end mill, but I think if you check it out, this will work.

Sorry about joining the rooftop crowd. 
Mind your parent stock. 


Dean


----------



## Twmaster

Is there room up here on the rooftop for me too?

Carl, That is looking good. I have yet to cut any 12L14. Been working with a lot of 1018 CRS.


----------



## tel

OOOOOOK 'Fiddler', now if you had left a full sized section long enough to do the square bit, _and then_ turned a bit down to the diameter of the bore spigot long enough for holding/indicating/whatever purposes, then you still could have got all of the above with it still attached. The problem you had was one of mindset 'cos you were looking at machining the square while it was in the horizontal plane. Here's a pic of a square being milled on a 'ome made tap - with the whole shootin' match still attached to the parent.


----------



## ttrikalin

nice, tel.
thanks for this pointer.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hee hee...seems my woodwork is infested. :big: Nah...this is great.

Thanks Dean. Yeah, the dimensioning has been interesting. I know some of it is me but it irks when I add/subtract dimensions and the result doesn't equal another.

As for milling the windows...you're right, there is a bore. I did think about doing one edge of the window, flipping the part 180, and then doing the other edge. It just seems inefficient (and risky for me). Have to do this twice since there are two windows. I haven't made up my mind yet to do that or use a single setup with larger end mill and have a larger radius.

Twmaster...there's room for all. Having the 12L14 was one of the reasons I had little hesitation to dump the 1018 that came with the kit. The cylinder cover is 1018 and the difference in milling the same shape in the 12L14 crosshead is amazing.

Tel...'fiddler'...good one. Sometimes I feel like that.

I understand I could have held the larger diameter in a collet and milled the flange square (and as ttrikalin says...it's a good tip). But that would also have milled off the reference diameter that was going to be used to face and turn the pilot (which is on the same end). Without the reference diameter I would have to use the square to indicate off of and that means it would have be perfectly milled and placed. I doubt I would be successful at that.

Don't anyone get me wrong...I'm not arguing against the advice that parent stock should be kept as long as possible. (I'm not arguing at all.) I'm just saying that had the diameter been turned down to .4375 instead of .44 then removing the stock when I did was perfectly fine. And, that keeping it to mill the flange before the pilot would likely have resulted in an off center pilot (at least for me).

Let's change the subject and have a party up here! ;D Hm...why do I hesitate to suggest a topic? :big: Anyone have a fiddle?


----------



## Twmaster

No fiddle. Although by that cap it looks like somebody else got your 'harp'.


----------



## mklotz

Since part of the value of this thread is to teach future newbies about machining operations, I think it's worthwhile to try to summarize a proper (though certainly not singular) machining sequence for this somewhat complicated part. Maybe it won't help Zee but it's useful in the long term.

It's been so long since I built this engine that I don't remember exactly what I did. That's good since it means I'll have to totally rethink it.

I'll get the ball rolling by putting together a strawman for the rest of you to shoot at...

Select parent stock at least twice the length of finished part.

Turn rod guide (my name for the cylindrical part with the windows) to an aliquot size.

Bore rod guide to finished diameter. Do NOT drill (1/8") hole through which piston rod passes yet.

Grasp parent stock in collet in (square) collet block. Mill windows in rod guide. In the same setup mill square section into parent stock - allow enough extra to turn cylinder guide.

Cut part from parent stock.

Mount part in lathe grasping rod guide in collet (or in 4jaw, referencing off rod guide OD). Face to length.

Turn cylinder guide. Drill/ream hole for piston rod.

Mount in mill and drill attachment holes in square section.

So shoot away. Tell me what I overlooked or got wrong.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

For the newbie...

*aliquot*
Merriam-Webster Online:
Function: adjective
: being an equal fractional part (as of a solution)

I take that to mean the OD should have been 0.4375 and not 0.44. In which case the turned part fits a collet and the flange can be squared and the holes drilled in the vise after turning the other end. Note that had the OD been correct then no extra stock would be required or wasted.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

So here it is...






It could be better. In fact, it can still be made better. But I'm running out of time today...I can still improve it later.

I took a chipped up 1/4" end mill and rounded off the bits. I used that to mill the windows. Came out okay except there was a lot of metal pushed into the part. Then it was filing filing filing sanding sanding sanding. It cleaned up pretty good but I'm a tad worried about how well the piston rod will slide.

Still, the milled flange and mounting holes came out pretty good.

Here is everything I have so far...






It's getting exciting. But don't be surprised if I end up doing some parts over ;D


----------



## vlmarshall

Looking great, Zeep! Looks like the part matches the drawing, which is all that really counts. So, what's the NEXT step in this project?


----------



## mklotz

> I take that to mean the OD should have been 0.4375 and not 0.44. In which case the turned part fits a collet and the flange can be squared and the holes drilled in the vise after turning the other end. Note that had the OD been correct then no extra stock would be required or wasted.



Yes, that's what 'aliquot' means. In fact, it's worth one of my all-caps rules...

WHENEVER POSSIBLE, MAKE PARTS IN STANDARD, ALIQUOT SIZES TO FACILITATE WORKHOLDING.

You still need that extra parent stock so you have something to grab onto *securely* while turning the rod guide and milling the windows and square section.

If you're making small models/objects, such leftover lumps of parent stock aren't wasted. Keep them in a bin, separated by metal type, and use them in the future for even smaller parts, spacers, standoffs, etcan. In my shop the rule is:

It isn't discardable scrap until it weighs less than five grams (the weight of an American nickel coin).

Oh, that "metal pushed into the interior of the rod guide"... A tip...

Keep your buggered reamers or junky ones found for nothing at yard sales and use them as bore cleaning tools for situations like this. While useless for sizing holes, they're usually still sharp enough to operate as satisfactory deburring tools.


----------



## chuck foster

zee............looking good, i should be a nice runner soon.

marv: thanks for the tip on the reamers

chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You still need that extra parent stock so you have something to grab onto *securely* while turning the rod guide and milling the windows and square section.



For anyone following in my footsteps and using the instructions that come with the kit...the instructions have you set the squared flange on a parallel while you pinch the part in the vise and mill the windows from the side. I had two issues with that...for one they don't have anything on the other side of the vise...but that can be taken care of with scrap and shims...but I was really concerned about the side force (or top if you mill from the top like I did) on the end that had no support. A stop block might not be a bad idea for milling from the side. A shimmed support from underneath if you mill from the top.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Keep your buggered reamers or junky ones found for nothing at yard sales and use them as bore cleaning tools for situations like this. While useless for sizing holes, they're usually still sharp enough to operate as satisfactory deburring tools.



I did consider doing that. I still may if I run into a problem fitting the piston rod. Thanks for adding the tip.

Just saw your post chuck...thanks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ah...Vernon...the next step you ask?

I'm thinking the piston and piston rod.

Let's see...
The drawing shows the piston should be 0.56 by 0.25.
Would the aliquot size be 0.5625 (9/16) or even 0.546875 (35/64). ;D
The material called for (and that they provided) is 5/8 round by 0.38.
The cylinder bore is 0.500.
Good to go!

Wait a second...

Something...not...right...pain...behind right eye...it hurts...

0.56! Typo? But then why the call out for 5/8 round?
3/8 to 0.25? What am I going to hold onto?

Aw forget it...in fact...forget that crumb of metal entirely and see if my six inch hunk of 0.5 will do the job. That, or the six inch hunk of 5/8. Either way, I can chuck the whole thing, trim and fit to size, then part it off.

Yeah...that's the ticket.

Now to go take apart the cylinder.


----------



## tel

... a fine tin roof with real wooden floors be-loooow ....



> I had two issues with that...for one they don't have anything on the other side of the vise...but that can be taken care of with scrap and shims...but I was really concerned about the side force (or top if you mill from the top like I did) on the end that had no support. A stop block might not be a bad idea for milling from the side. A shimmed support from underneath if you mill from the top.



Here y'go, take a time-out and make one, no make about a dozen of these, in different sizes

http://homemetalshopclub.org/projects/machinest_jack/machinist_jack.htm


----------



## tel

Oversize is _GOOD_ Zee. Here's some stock for 5.5mm a/f nuts that I whittled down from 3/8" rod


----------



## vlmarshall

tel  said:
			
		

> ... a fine tin roof with real wooden floors be-loooow ....


I'm glad I'm not the only one with that song in my head. ;D


----------



## mklotz

Yeah, a 0.56 piston in a 0.5 bore is going to seal like crazy though the friction is going to be a *****.

I'm tempted to say something about the plans, instructions and supplied stock but my natural aversion to sarcasm prevents me. Yeah, right! 

Here's a little preemptory hint for the piston...

Elmer's plans usually call for a few oil grooves in the piston, generally made with a pointed tool. If you turn the piston to size and then make the grooves, the grooving operation will throw up minute humps of metal that must be smoothed away before the piston will fit again in the bore.

Make the oil grooves when the piston is, say, five thou oversize. Then the final sizing cut on the piston will remove these humps and leave a nice, truly cylindrical surface.

BTW, congrats on beginning to see the wisdom of forming parts on large pieces of parent stock. Remember to cut your piston long enough (say 3/8") on the parent stock to allow room for the cutoff tool/bandsaw blade to free it.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Machinist jacks are a great idea tel. The ones I made are too tall but it does make me think I'll add some more of those kinds of things to my tool project list.

No problem having oversized material. My main point was that the drawing is just wrong. Both in dimension and material callout. Had one gone the other way and made the piston first with the idea of sizing the cylinder to fit...they would have been in for a rude surprise.

Ah Marv..you posted while I was writing this.

Thanks for the tip on the grooves. I didn't recall any grooves on the piston so I looked at the drawing again. None there. So I looked at the assembly drawing for the piston and rod. Yep...there's the grooves. (And an outer dimension of 0.563...even bigger than the drawing for the piston by itself!! Ha!)

Yep...wanted to make it long enough too so that when sizing the cylinder, the piston would go in deep enough rather than just barely in.

Thanks.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> So I looked at the assembly drawing for the piston and rod. Yep...there's the grooves. (*And an outer dimension of 0.563...even bigger than the drawing for the piston by itself!!* Ha!)


Well, there ya go, they included .003" ridges left by machining the grooves last.


----------



## tel

Vernon  said:
			
		

> I'm glad I'm not the only one with that song in my head. ;D



Been stuck there ever since some bugger first mentioned roofs.


----------



## mklotz

Machinist jacks are indeed handy little things. They needn't be anything fancy. When your parent stock scraps (mentioned above) get really short, face them and drill through and tap for some convenient size screw* and, voila, little jacks.

For such support tasks, adjustable parallels are also very handy. They shouldn't be used to support really heavy loads but, for the sort of stuff we do, they work just fine.

--
* With self-made tooling, it's a good idea to settle on two or three sizes of screws and use those wherever possible in the stuff you make to increase the chances of fortuitous serendipity. Having two bits you never considered connecting screw together neatly when the need arises is a real spirit lifter. Plus, if you have guests in your shop when it happens, you can say you planned that out years ago and they'll think you're some kind of prescient genius.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Piston.

That went surprisingly well and quickly in my little world.
And I just now realized...I only made it once!







I just kept sanding and cleaning until it fit into the cylinder easily enough. But boy do you need to be careful. Brass sands pretty easily and you can make it too small real quick.

Drilled for 5-40 thread, then drilled halfway through at .125. Then tapped it the 5-40.

I also remembered to file a radius after parting down enough to get at it.

Having said that...the fit is a little 'rough'. I don't know what that means...but I probably needed to do a better job of cleaning out and sanding the cylinder bore.

I need to get a better countersink too. The one I use has bounced around my tool box for some 30 years. I did it by hand and you can see the chatter.

Still...pretty satisfied with today.
Would have been perfect had I some M&Ms. Wait...I think I do!


----------



## mklotz

Nicely done.

One flute countersinks

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=948561&PMAKA=380-0810

don't chatter and they're easy to sharpen.


----------



## Deanofid

Well, you sure got a lot done Zee, and the assembled bits looks extra good, aliquot or not. You really are getting close. It's so exciting, even without M&M's!

These instructions are just too bad, though. Not only the parts that have the builder making scrap, but the writer leads the builder into unsafe situations. Good thing you have a head on your shoulders.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv.
Thanks Dean.

Well...the instructions are not conducive to a successful build. While better than nothing...I suspect most newbies trying to do this would give up. I'm not saying I'm any better than them (I'm not immune to questioning this hobby myself) but this is my chance to fulfill a number of 50 year old dreams. (And I seem to be developing another hobby of making people cringe ;D ).

Anyway...I'm trying to make the valve stem. Instructions have you set it in the lathe and sticking out by about 1.5". Then you turn it down to 0.095. Well most of you know what this means....the deflection is so very obvious. Following the instructions will give you an unusable valve stem...and therefore no chance of a running engine.

If you want to build this engine (and the one before it) using only the instructions...you're wasting your money. Again...I'm so very glad to have this forum and to have met these wonderful people.

I might be able to salvage this piece with a file and sandpaper (although the diameter at the headstock end is a bit small now). But there are two more rods to make using similar methods.

Well I'm not. I think a live center is in order here...and a bit longer length of material so I can have a sacrificial end at the center and not worry about having my brains eaten (by a half-dead...zombie...center). ;D

Today has been mostly frustration...it didn't help that I had to replace the faucet in the bathroom and this old body just can't bend like that anymore...however good it might look.

I made the piston rod earlier today. No pics. Not a proud moment. The milling of the piston rod guide haunted me most of the day...because of the bulges. Two lessons here...one was that it takes time...don't rush it...it was a lot of handwork filing and sanding...but it did turn out good...unfortunately I hadn't learned lesson two yet...take care of the first problem and the second problem is easier to solve. So the piston rod looks kind of ugly. What I mean is that I was going back and forth between the piston rod and the piston rod guide...filing and sanding trying to make them fit. I should've concentrated on the piston rod guide first.

P.S. Be careful up on that roof...I didn't build it to code...the instructions I had...well...

Good weekend though! Wife is home. Saw my granddaughter after two weeks of loneliness, great stuff on the forum, good time with a good friend....and the faucet didn't leak. Nice. :big:


----------



## mklotz

Making the valve stem...

Whenever you need to turn a thin piece like this and can't conveniently support the free end with the TS, consider turning it in sections. Chuck it with, say, 3/8" sticking out of the collet, turn that down to 0.070. Now pull a bit more out of the collet, say, 1/2". Turn down to 0.095. Repeat in ~ 1/2" sections until you have the full length turned. Thread for the valve nut with a die immediately after the section to be threaded has been turned to size. Any minor irregularities at the turning junctions are soon dealt with using fine emery or a fine cut jeweler's file. 

Now, if you turned the part from 3/16" square stock held in a square collet, all you need to do is part off, face and drill the cross hole in the square section.

The piston rod is best made as a piece of 1/8" rod soldered/Loctited into a separately milled guide. Time for an all caps generalization...

WHENEVER A PART CALLS FOR A LONG, SMALL DIAMETER SECTION OF ALIQUOT DIAMETER, INSTEAD OF TURNING, THINK OF FABRICATING.

I contend that it's not possible to write good instructions for building a model engine.

If you presume some level of machining skill in the builder, you exclude all the newbies who haven't reached that level yet.

If you attempt to describe every operation in sufficient detail to include the newbies, you'll bore the more skilled to death. Plus, given the range of tooling the newbie may or may not have and the multitude of ways a given operation may be accomplished, the resulting comprehensive instructions would require a forklift for delivery.

Good instructions, like good taxes and good wars, is a figment of the imagination of someone who has never actually dealt with the subject.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Anyway...I'm trying to make the valve stem. Instructions have you set it in the lathe and sticking out by about 1.5". Then you turn it down to 0.095.



There is a pretty well known way to do this, if you start with a piece of stock that is large enough. I'm sure the ding bat material supplier sent you something ridiculous to use for it, like 1/8" rod, though. 
If you need to make a small diameter shaft, start with a much larger diameter piece, and let the piece itself become it's own work holder. 

For instance, if you want that .095" piece, say 1.5" long, start with stock that will normally be safe for turning at that length. For 1.5" of length sticking out of the chuck, you need it to be no less than 1/2" diameter, and larger would be better. Then you can cut short steps down to the diameter you need, and the parent stock, (_that_ word, again) provides support as you actually cut it away. 
Cut the first bit on the end for a length of about 3/8", in this example, and down to your finished diameter, and note your dial setting. Then continue to cut short bits until you have your piece finished.

Following is a sequence I did for a fellow who needed to know how to turn tiny cannon barrels for a ship model. He was having trouble with tiny stock bending. It shows cutting a taper, but works the same for cutting straight shafting.






The piece starts out as 3/16 round stock.









First cut was just to get the right taper. This step not needed in your case.









Start of cut, and check end diameter.









Keep going. Just stopped here to take the pic.









Finished. All one cut from one end to the other. The small end is .030", the larger is .050". The work piece is effectively it's own work holder.
For a larger piece than shown in the pictures, you cut a bunch of steps, each one ending up at the finished diameter. You have to keep a sharp eye on your cross feed dial!

This method will work for any practical length you need, but the longer the piece is, the larger the diameter of the parent metal has to be.
You might not need this right now, but it's a way of doing things that might come in handy.

If you want to the piece you are talking about with a center, make sure it is all the way dead. You do not want a half dead center in your shop! 

Kidding aside, I really would use a dead center for this as a good option.  With it, and light cuts, you can make a pretty darn straight shaft. Just get your tool good and sharp so it shaves the material nice, (doesn't grab, and cause the work to ride up over it).

If you have a live center that is not so big on the bearing end that it interferes with your work, it will work, too. Live centers are not as accurate as dead centers, generally. That may not matter for this piece. 

Glad you had a good weekend. You're headed in the right direction to becoming a good hand at this machinist stuff. You're not dumb, and you have a good attitude. Good attributes for guys in this hobby.

Dean


----------



## Deanofid

I see Marv was going at a similar direction while I was typing. There's another way for you, Zee.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv and Dean. Funny that...I was thinking along those lines...was wondering why it wouldn't work. Even better was Dean's photos showing how. My first thought was doing it in steps...but I can see the advantage of the taper...keeping as much strength as possible until the last moment.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> I contend that it's not possible to write good instructions for building a model engine.


I contend that that is garbage. ;D It depends on the assumptions provided in the instructions and the engine.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> If you presume some level of machining skill in the builder, you exclude all the newbies who haven't reached that level yet.


Absolutely true...comes back to assumptions provided in the instructions. These kits SAID they were for the person who was new to machining. Assumption is..."I know nothing...teach me".



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> If you attempt to describe every operation in sufficient detail to include the newbies, you'll bore the more skilled to death. Plus, given the range of tooling the newbie may or may not have and the multitude of ways a given operation may be accomplished, the resulting comprehensive instructions would require a forklift for delivery.


Assumption provided was that this is a kit for newbies...hence the more skilled SHOULD be bored to death. As for tooling...this goes back to an earlier complaint...a kit of this sort should include a section on 'tools needed to complete this kit'.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Good instructions, like good taxes and good wars, is a figment of the imagination of someone who has never actually dealt with the subject.


True again. But if you HAVE dealt with the subject and purport to know the subject and intend to teach the subject...then it can/should be good. If you intend to advertise as such and sell the material...then it darn well better be good.

Let's remember that this is the 2nd in a series of kits that (as they said) is intended for the newbie with little if any experience. I bought it with that assumption and with the assumption that they would help me successfully build an engine. Did they false advertise or lie (is there a difference)? Or is it just a case of someone forgetting what they didn't know. Most likely it's a case of someone wanting to make a buck and either not knowing how to put together such a type of kit or not interested enough in putting in the quality. It irks me even more that it's been out a for a few years and they haven't even corrected the simplest of errors.

I think a good instruction manual for building an engine can be done. Absolutely. But I think this is a poor engine choice as a second in a series for 'no-nothings' like me.

This is the kind of thing that gets newbies to buy into a hobby, get disappointed, and give up. If you (the kit) say you can teach me...then teach me.

I feel I have every right to complain about this kit. It is not as advertised. And if anyone thinks of saying "I should have known better"...then I'll remind them that no one knows better when they're taking their first step onto a road never traveled by them.

Violent agreement?

Rats...I didn't listen to my own advice...my rooftop just gave way....


----------



## Twmaster

Carl,

I have to agree with you here. While I am not totally new to machining I am a relatively inexperienced metal monkey. If the vendor is going to advertise a product to a specific market, in this case new machinist wannabees, then the documentation should be relatively comprehensive and the materials cut in such a way to aide the new(ish) wannabee along the road to success.

Now help me up off this workbench. And tell Dean to move his elbow....


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> If you attempt to describe every operation in sufficient detail to include the newbies, you'll bore the more skilled to death. Plus, given the range of tooling the newbie may or may not have and the multitude of ways a given operation may be accomplished, the resulting comprehensive instructions would require a forklift for delivery.



Well, I disagree with this, Marv. Too many instructions never hurt, if they are relevant. What seems like too much detail to me, or you, will not hinder us. We can just skip the boring or redundant (to us) parts and go on to the prints. That doesn't work in reverse. Nothing can be gleaned from what is not there. If tools need to be made that will only used for the particular project at hand, like a jig, or special cutter, they should be described too.  




			
				zeeprogrammer said:
			
		

> My first thought was doing it in steps...but I can see the advantage of the taper...keeping as much strength as possible until the last moment.



Zee, I didn't mean for you to use the taper. These pictures just happened to be made when explaining to someone wanting to do a similar operation that also needed a taper. If your shaft needs to be straight, forget the taper part, but use the same method. It is actually more rigid without the taper, having the full support of the parent diameter.





			
				twmaster said:
			
		

> Now help me up off this workbench. And tell Dean to move his elbow....



A 747 moment for me, Mike. This went right over my head.
Whoosh..

Dean


----------



## Twmaster

Deanofid said:
			
		

> A 747 moment for me, Mike. This went right over my head.
> Whoosh..



Sheesh.. You guys forget stuff real quick like. I thought we were all up on Carl's roof. It collapsed. Now get yer elbow outta my ribs!


----------



## Deanofid

Sorry Mike. Didn't even know about it. I must have died in the fall.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. Yeah...I had reread your post late last night and realized that. And thanks again for the tips.


I hope no one got hurt. I landed on my rear...so I'm okay.


----------



## mklotz

Zee,

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. That's fine with me. We agree on the essentials - that writing good instructions is very difficult - and differ only on the level of difficulty - I think it's impossible and you think it can be done, albeit with a goodly investment of time and effort.

What is clear is that the instructions you have fall into the "destroy before reading" security classification that was so popular when I was working.

Thinking a bit more about your valve rod...

You can't use a center, zombie or otherwise, on a 0.070 shaft (maybe the watchmakers could) but you can still use it to provide some support while turning the 0.093 section. Before starting on the valve rod, stick a short length of brass in your TS drill chuck and, using the headstock, drill it with a #50 drill to a depth of 0.5. Now turn your 0.070 section on the valve rod. Polish it down until it's a running fit in the hole in your bit of scrap in the TS chuck (which is aligned with the spindle axis because of the way it was drilled).

Now lather up the 0.070 shaft with some good oil, stick it in the hole, and voila, TS support for your rod as you turn the rest of the shaft.


----------



## rleete

I just want to throw my 2 cents in here. I am enjoying this thread immensely. Not only for the good-natured banter, which is nice, but also because of the methods and hints all are throwing out there. I am not making this particular engine, but I am working on another one which has enough similarities for this topic to be germaine.

Keep it up guys!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Before starting on the valve rod, stick a short length of brass in your TS drill chuck and, using the headstock, drill it with a #50 drill to a depth of 0.5. Now turn your 0.070 section on the valve rod. Polish it down until it's a running fit in the hole in your bit of scrap in the TS chuck (which is aligned with the spindle axis because of the way it was drilled).
> 
> Now lather up the 0.070 shaft with some good oil, stick it in the hole, and voila, TS support for your rod as you turn the rest of the shaft.



That is a great tip Marv. Thanks. It also points out (again) how, when you come up against a tree, one should step back and look around. There's usually another one you can make for.


Thanks rleete. Very much appreciated. It's a lot of fun.


----------



## mklotz

I'm glad you liked it. It's not a trick you'll use often but it has its moments.

You may need to grind a skinny tool to get into the rather restricted working area that will be available.



> There's usually another one you can make for.



Hunh? Methinks you've been around the Pennsylvania Dutch too much. Next thing you know you'll be using expressions like, "Come ahead back."

Before anyone gets his hackles up let me say that I'm a recovering Pennsylvania Dutchman.
It took years to get rid of the accent and the grammar butchery but it was worth it. After nearly 50 years on the left coast, I've gotten to the point that virtually no one can detect my origins from my speech or writing.


----------



## Twmaster

> After nearly 50 years on the left coast, I've gotten to the point that virtually no one can detect my origins from my speech or writing.



That may be but with a name like Klotz you are labeled for life. I do a lot of work in that area. In fact. I'll be in Lancaster tomorrow....


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Hunh? Methinks you've been around the Pennsylvania Dutch too much. Next thing you know you'll be using expressions like, "Come ahead back."



Could be. Or not enough. Or it's southern Missouri, or northern Arkansas, I doubt it's mid-Illinois. I sometimes stop and catch myself at work before saying something no one understands. Not that that doesn't happen anyway. ;D

Well...I've thought about that valve stem all day. I'm already letting a poorly made piston rod get by me (for now). Having two shoddy parts is two too many. I haven't got much invested in the valve stem...so I decided to re-do it.

Now...remember the crank handle? The evil crank handle? Well I'm looking at the 1.4" of .085 to .095 material sticking out of the chuck and I think...maybe I can just bend it and snap it off.

Oh how this stuff likes to mess with my mind. That's right...bent right over nearly 90 degrees.

Phooey. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

We go from 'phooey' to woohoo1 woohoo1

I was talking about the valve stem with Vernon on YIM and he made a little drawing...well that sent me off...

At first I thought this...







But then went to this (after shortening the handle and cleaning up the end)...






Then I used the parting tool to turn the larger diameter down and then the smaller diameter for the 5-40 thread. Here it is about to be parted...






Then I flipped it in the chuck with a 'light' hold and threaded it...






Sorry the pics aren't as good as I'd hoped.

Couple a boo-boos that I thought about while doing the job but forgot when it came time to...

For one I wanted to put a radius at the end of the threaded portion before finishing the part. As it turned out...it wasn't needed.

I also wanted to use a thin blade and put a thread relief at the back end of the thread. But that won't hurt either as the reversing lever will be there.

And here it is sitting in the engine...






This was really cool! Thank you Vernon. You still owe me beer...but thank you.

I wasn't happy about the valve stem...didn't think I'd be doing anything tonight...and instead I end up with a finished part...and the 'evil crank handle' at that!!!

 woohoo1 woohoo1


----------



## vlmarshall

Wow, that looks a lot better in'real life' than it did in Yahoo's "Doodle"! Congrats! :bow: I still wonder why it bent this time, and not the last...what was it...four tries? From the same piece of brass? Strange stuff. 


When did you get tailstock die holders?




			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> This was really cool! Thank you Vernon. You still owe me beer...but thank you.



Not "beer"!... just *A* Beer! ONE!! Here, let me point it out for ya.


----------



## mklotz

A nice save, indeed, but I want to know how, after all the hints we gave you, you managed to bend the valve rod. From the picture it looks as if you tried to turn the full length down to 0.093 despite knowing that that wasn't going to work. Was this another case of having to personally verify that the instructions were indeed wrong?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> A nice save, indeed, but I want to know how, after all the hints we gave you, you managed to bend the valve rod.



I don't know what you're onto here Marv. There were a few more inches of brass in the head stock. I thought I'd just snap the valve rod off and try again. The bend was a complete surprise. What hints are you talking about? If you're talking about still saving the part as a valve rod...it would've been too late anyway. The diameter near the parent stock was too small.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> From the picture it looks as if you tried to turn the full length down to 0.093 despite knowing that that wasn't going to work.



Knowing? Yeah Marv...that would be pretty stupid. No I didn't 'know'...I had my suspicion. And I'd rather confirm a suspicion and learn than to continue wondering. And as I've said before...I don't just question manuals.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Was this another case of having to personally verify that the instructions were indeed wrong?



The short answer is 'no'. The long answer would require me to address the implication....but the long answer is still 'no'. ;D


----------



## mklotz

Zee,

Obviously, I've upset you with my question. I sincerely apologize. I won't offer any explanation other than that I'm having some problems at home and it crept into my writing - not really a valid excuse.

I'll try to be more politic in the future. Again, my apologies.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I admit to having been upset...I can't say myself why I was overly sensitive.

No apologies needed Marv..but thanks.

I hope things clear up very soon for you.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Okay...knowing there are no 'silly' questions on this forum...I'm going to try anyway... ;D (As an unapproved member of the Peanut Gallery...I get to ask for free.)

Taking another run at the valve stem...

I've turned the first .41 down to .071. I did not go farther yet. And yes...no noticeable deflection. Looks good so far. (Thanks to Dean and Marv for some great tips.)

The next 0.31 is supposed to be turned down to .095. Later this will be threaded for 3-48. (Wait for it oh knowledgeable ones...)

After that, the next 0.64 is turned down to .0938.

The part fits into the steam chest that has a .0938 hole. So the final 0.64 makes sense to me. I'm trying to figure out how the 0.95 gets past the .0938 hole.

Does threading it reduce it to, or less than, .0938? Must. Otherwise, it can't get past the .0938 hole in the steam chest.

The 'never to be mentioned again manual' says to use the threaded section as a pilot for the steam chest. Really? .095 into .0938? (Here you go oh knowlegeable ones...I won't even go into the fact that I have two sources that say the diameter for the 3-48 should be 0.099!!!)

Okay..maybe no question....to get past the .0938 hole in the steam chest...the diameter must be .0938...or smaller ;D. So I'm going to turn to .0938 and then thread the 3-48 on that for the required distance.

Stop me now when you see the error of my ways.

You have some time cause I have to figure out how I'll know I've threaded for the required distance.

I'm thinking to turn to .095 (as the 'never to be mentioned again' manual says), thread it to 3-48 and then turn the rest to .0938...possibly skimming off the tips of the threads.

Aren't you glad you're reading this? :big:

Maybe it's the upcoming holidays.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> I still wonder why it bent this time, and not the last...what was it...four tries?
> 
> When did you get tailstock die holders?
> 
> Not "beer"!... just *A* Beer! ONE!!



Forgot I hadn't replied to this 'post'.

Four times! Thanks for reminding me Vernon. Thanks. ;D

Die holder was gotten months ago. Nice tool. With that and Arnold's thread on making die holders...I hope to make some over the holidays.

The nice thing about the internet, this forum, and people's memories...you can't get away with it...it was 'beer'...NOT 'a beer'. And certainly not the 'dry' one you sent me. :big: (Thanks again guy.)

By the way...I've been recording our YIM chats. ;D


----------



## Metal Butcher

In reply to your concern about the valve rod diameters. The hole going through the steam chest spigot is shown as .094" . The diameter of the threaded section and the non-threaded section should be turned down to .093".

Thread the 5/16 section and don't concern your self to much with charts showing theoretical screw diameters. My chart says 3-48 being .0973.

Before removing the valve rod from your lathe test fit the steam chest. If the threaded are won't slide in easy, simply but carefully dress it down with a fine file.

I run into this situation with threading .125 rod 5-40, The rod will not pass through a .125 hole when it needs to like on a piston rod to piston. Yes the threading can and does increase the outer diameter. A "file slap" as I call it solves the problem. Fact is you really don't need 100% thread on a rod or in a tapped hole. Most guys will go with 50% to 70% thread and call it a day. Play with the adjustment on your split die and practice on identical diameter material to achieve a snug fit between the valve rod thread and the adjusting nut.

EDIT. If that is not acceptable than look into opening up the spigot hole to 7/64" (.1093) and machine the non-threaded area of the valve rod .109". 
-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Too late!!! It's done!!! And I'm happy (so far)... [EDIT: Not in reference to MB's post...I saw that after I was typing. My reply to his is included.]

Here's a pic of the first .071" with radius.






Here's a pic of the next .31 turned down to .095.






And threaded.






I turned the die around to chase the thread...it marred the first .071 a tad but it cleaned up fine.

Here it is with the next .065 turned down to .0938. First attempt was a little tight getting past the thread and then to the shoulder. I took some scotchbrite to it...and it slipped on pretty nicely.






I also put the little nut on the valve stem and was pleased to see that it fit nicely.

MB...thanks! I saw your post while typing this. You mentioned the diameter getting larger with threading. And yes, I noticed that after threading, the OD went from .095 to .097 if not .099. I'm not surprised that your drawings show a (slightly different dimension from mine. In fact, when I saw the .0938 I thought it was kind of funny, bordering on ludicrous, for a beginner's kit. It's hard enough to get within .001 of anything.

For those of you with hard hearts...turn away now...off topic and 'slobby'...

I've got a few tears in my eyes. Wife is watching 'Dancing With The Stars' and they were doing a 'Vienna Waltz'. So I went upstairs to take a look. When we were married (1975), our song was John Denver's "Annie's Song". It's a Vienna Waltz. She and I have done some ballroom dancing, off and on, since 1982. 3 years ago my oldest daughter got married and we took the opportunity to try the Vienna Waltz with "Annie's Song". We were too old to do it justice...but the look on my daughter's face was priceless.

Yeah...a new year must be approaching. I'll try to keep the maudlin moments to a minimum. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Now that I've dried my eyes...woo woo!

I get to use my 5C collet block!

[EDIT: The 'never to be mentioned again' manual is using a Spin Index. No need. I just need to square off the end and drill a hole through it.]


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, the way you cut the small threaded shaft from the larger stock is just right! Let the stock piece of metal be its' own work holding device, just like you did it. You've got the world by the tail, my good man. 

Your remembrance of your waltz and daughters wedding hit my soft spot. I have fond memories of the day my own daughter was wed. She was so happy. Still is. 

Dean


----------



## Artie

Damn but I keep 'forgetting' how small this thing is..... occasional reality checks helps..... looks good mate...

R


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and Artie. Very much appreciated.

I started looking at the part sitting in the collet block and trying to figure out my approach. Well I think I need to change.

While the collet block would work...I would need to reset the X axis on the mill every time I rotated the block. That can (will) lead to error. So it's the spindex for me.

The second thing I'm thinking about is how to get to the needed Z. I could touch off the stem and move the head up....or touch off the larger diameter and move down. (Either method requiring a measure of the part being touched off.) I'm thinking I'll touch off the larger diameter and move down. Backlash will have been taken care of because I'm still moving in the same direction. And while I believe this is not the most accurate since the larger diameter has not been turned...I figure the error will be within the tolerance for a dimension called out as 0.19.

No? Yes? Too late...as I press Post I am turning around to my mill ;D

This just seems pretty fundamental. I'm starting to question every move I make.


----------



## mklotz

> While the collet block would work...I would need to reset the X axis on the mill every time I rotated the block. That can (will) lead to error. So it's the spindex for me.



I thought you had a vise stop. Use it to ensure the collet block returns to the same position.




> The second thing I'm thinking about is how to get to the needed Z. I could touch off the stem and move the head up....or touch off the larger diameter and move down.



I've never had much luck touching off as you describe and maintaining accuracy.

Take a light cut, rotate collet block 180 degrees and take another cut at the same setting. Mike across the flat you've just created* and calculate how much more z-axis cut you need to put on to get to 0.19.


--
* This is one of those situations where a 0.5" micrometer is awfully handy for getting into those little slots. I have two of them and use them frequently.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=9036959&PMT4NO=74682904

Highly recommended as stocking stuffers.


----------



## shred

Even without a vise stop, you can use a parallel or 1-2-3 block to set the collet block position repeatably* off the side of the vise or whatever's handy.


* Assuming your collet block is reasonably square. It's worth checking beforehand.


----------



## va4ngo

All looking good zee

Persistance beats resistance


Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not too late as it turns out. I was interrupted by the call to din-din.

Thanks Marv. I do have a vise stop. I'm always forgetting it. This will move the collet block such that it sits on only one side of the vise. I suppose I can sit it on top of a parallel that will span the vise.

Funny about the micrometer. I happen to have one I bought for an electronics lab course some 30 years ago. It was a required purchase so we could measure the diameter of resistor leads so we would know what to specify for holes in printed circuit boards. (The instructor did not appreciate my pointing out that it could be looked up or that standard holes seemed to be appropriate.) I was just talking about it with a friend and used it for the first time since then the other night.

I haven't used the collet block yet so I'm thinking I'll give it a go.

[EDIT: Snookered with respect to the vise stop. No room for it. The draw bar thingie (name please?) is in the way. Maybe could use the nut but I don't have the spanner for it yet. Could put the vise stop on the other end but that doesn't seem right. Vise stop would be in contact with the collect itself...not the block...and only a corner at that. Shred's suggestion is still possible but I'm not sure how to do it. I'll try and post some pics.]

Thanks Shred. I suspect the collet block I have is 'square enough' for this job...but how do you verify it? Some stock in a collet, a DTI in the spindle, and rotate the block 90 degrees and see if the DTI changes?

Thanks Phil. Yep. My head will eventually get through those walls. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Here's a pic with vise stop behind...can't install it...







Here's a pic with vise stop in front...






Here's a pic using a 1-2-3 block in back up against the collet...






I don't know if this is what you all meant...

[EDIT: I don't think that last shot with the clamps is right. Now it's not just the collet block that has to be square...but the draw bar thingie too. Needs to be in front. Okay. Enough of this...gotta mill. Back to Spindex ;D]


----------



## steamer

Hey Zee,

If it got you the part you need you did it the right way... ;D

Dave


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Nice Dave! Thanks.

Well here it is...
Sorry...I have no tan M&Ms either. I'm lucky to have this one...






The material, as provided in the kit, is too short to follow the unmentionable instructions. After milling the square, I was supposed to put it in the lathe and part it off. No way. Nothing to hold onto. I ended up chucking it such that I was holding onto the thin diameter. Which worried me that it would bend with the pressure. I took it easy...light facing cuts...and it went very well.

Then I set it in the vise, used the edge finder to find the center of the square, and center drilled, drilled, and reamed it.

I'm still doing poorly at measuring. For example, in the lathe I measure at least 3 times and got the distance to 0.19. But after taking it out of the lathe and measuring again, I came up with 0.185.

In fact, when in the Spindex, I was supposed to get .19 on two opposing faces and .188 on the other two. Just a .001 off from the other two, right?. Once I was done I found all four to be at .186.

The other difficulty was sanding...a jig would have helped here. You can't hold onto it and not have it slip. The result is faceting (if that's the right term).

This has gone well...well enough that I'm seriously thinking of do-over for the piston rod. But I'll probably wait until all the parts are done and I see how things fit/look/work together.


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee - you've made a couple of great looking parts since I've last posted :bow:.
(Been sitting in the peanut gallery - away from the edge of the roof  )

Regards, Arnold

PS - You're cheating on the M&Ms; if you can't get the size right, at least use photoshop or something to make it tan ;D


----------



## tel

Zee, Zee, Zee, If you don't have room to get the vise stop in there, put some packing between the vise jaw and the collet block until you do!


----------



## mklotz

First thing to do is put that collet clamping thing away and get out the locking ring. I've used a collet block set for twenty years or so and never had occasion to use that clamp. The ring is far more useful and, major point, allows one to stand the collet upright in the vise - a feature you will find penultimately useful.

When I got my block set, I didn't have a spanner to fit the locking ring either. What I did have is a POS "wrench" acquired in a box of junk at a yard sale. It was just a piece of die cut steel - didn't even remotely resemble a proper forged wrench. I keep junk like this for just this sort of application.

I cut off one jaw of the wrench. (The fact that I could do that with a hacksaw gives you an idea of the quality of the wrench.) Then I used the bench grinder to grind into the other jaw in such a way as to leave a single "tooth" at the tip of the jaw, said tooth filed to fit the hole(s) in the locking ring.

It's perhaps one of the ugliest bits of bodgery I've ever done but it worked so well that I still use it - though I try not to look at it when I pick it up.

Ok, you don't have a wrench from a yard sale. Take a piece of 1/8" or so flat steel - the hot rolled crap from Home Depot is fine - and hack the appropriate shape and tooth into it with whatever you have available. (Angle grinders are great for this sort of caveman machine work.) Wrap some duct tape around the handle to protect your hands and Bob's your father's brother.

The spanner doesn't need to be pretty or very strong, for that matter. What's important is that that clamping thing is always going to get in your way and you need to use the ring.

I made the valve rod much as you've done because I built the engine so long ago, before I had the tools I have today. A much cleaner way to make the part is to start with 3/16" square stock and, holding it in a square collet, turn the shaft. Then you don't need to faff about carving the square end on it.

Aside: Nobody ever has enough collets but, after getting an adequate set of round collets, I find the square collets to be the most useful addition to the collection. There have been a few occasions when hex collets would have been handy but the square ones get lots of use in my shop.

Don't sweat the dimensions of the square section. It's just there to provide some place to attach the valve connecting rod.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

Gosh darn it Tel. Lack of experience and practice I guess. I've done it a few times now when making a part. The wetware must be drying up...it didn't occur to me to do the same to a tool.

Marv...thanks. Yeah...when I got the collet blocks I was a little surprised. I would've wanted the spanner instead of the clamping thingie. I suspect once I acquire one (made or purchased) I won't be using the clamping thingie.

I don't know what a POS wrench is...I'll have to look it up later.

Square collets are definitely on my 'to get' list...along with the spanner ;D. It did occur to me that square stock would have worked...especially as I have two more pieces that require similar shaping.


----------



## mklotz

POS = Piece Of Scheisse

Alles klar?


----------



## tel

That's one of the beauties of making stuff yourself - with my home made MT2 collet blocks all I have to do is slip a big washer under the head of the drawbolt, so it butts uo against the end of the vise jaws


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> POS = Piece Of Scheisse
> 
> Alles klar?



Klar als Scheisse. Danke. Vielen Dank. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

tel  said:
			
		

> That's one of the beauties of making stuff yourself - with my home made MT2 collet blocks all I have to do is slip a big washer under the head of the drawbolt, so it butts uo against the end of the vise jaws



Gosh darn it Tel. ;D

I'm getting close to getting my 4th 'little engine that sorta is' done. Now that I feel I'm in this for good...and actually have some success...I'm starting to develop an interest in making tools and other things. I am really looking forward to some time off this Christmas.


----------



## kvom

Definitely get the pin spanner for the collet block ring as Marv says. I got mine at Enco; they're not expensive.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

steamer  said:
			
		

> If it got you the part you need you did it the right way... ;D



So much truth in that Dave. Especially as a beginner hobbyist. Thanks.

Thanks kvom. Just waiting for the 'to get' list to get a little longer. Won't be long... ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I have the eccentric rod and connecting rod to do. They are similar in shape. Boxes on the end of a thin rod. The connecting rod is tapered.

The rods are maybe 1.5" to 1.75" long and .09" at the narrowest.

The 'not to be mentioned' instructions tell me to turn the connecting rod down to the largest diameter of the rod and then the smallest diameter for a little distance. Then file the taper.

As what seems usual for this manual, the part is hanging out in the breeze.

I'm using round stock. Brass.

So how to do this?

I've started with the eccentric rod. But I took some longer stock, drilled one end, and mounted it in the lathe with a live center.

I'm not sure how to turn this though. Switch between left and right cutters? But I'm thinking the part will bow in the middle (move away) as the diameter gets smaller.

Use the parting tool at the ends, turn down a little, then file?

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.


----------



## Twmaster

It just occurred to me. This engine looks a lot like Elmer's #43.


----------



## shred

I 3rd/4th/whateverth the ditch-the-knob-thingy crowd on the collet blocks. You don't even need a pin spanner if you don't want one (though having one saves buggering up the ring with a pipe wrench if tightened externally)-- put the part in the collet in the block and hand-tighten the ring. Place block in vise. With handy round rod of approximate pin-hole diameter, poke into nearest hole and move in a tightening direction tommy-bar style.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Twmaster  said:
			
		

> It just occurred to me. This engine looks a lot like Elmer's #43.



Yep. That's the one.

So anyone who's built one...like Marv ;D...is welcome to help me figure out the connecting and eccentric rods.

Thanks shred. I had to look up what a tommy-bar is. Looks like a short rod would work.


----------



## ttrikalin

I just realized what a long post this is... And the wealth of advice it contains... I'll read it all from the beginning -- seems like a wonderful journey. 

tom


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tom.

Once you get past my swarf...there's a lot of good parts in there from some very helpful and knowledgeable people. :big:


----------



## Metal Butcher

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Yep. That's the one.
> 
> So anyone who's built one...like Marv ;D...is welcome to help me figure out the connecting and eccentric rods.
> 
> Thanks shred. I had to look up what a tommy-bar is. Looks like a short rod would work.



Zee This is how I would make the eccentric rod.

Option A; Cheat by making it out of three pieces. Tricky but doable.

Optiob B; Cut and then finish by Milling a 1/8" x 3/16" strip 1/2" or more longer than the total overall length of the finished eccentric rod. You may need quite a bit more excess on the head stock end for a miniature dog leg which you'll probably need to fabricate. You can hack of most of the excess later to minimize the trimming in your mill. Lay out the center lines for the drilled and tapped holes, make sure you are centered on the work piece, because later 1/4" will be trimmed off each end. With the drilling and tapping done center drill both ends on center for a head stock and tail stock center. Simply turn down between the previous lay out lines down to the specified diameter. Return the work piece to the mill and trim off the excess 1/4" from both ends by hanging the excess out the side plus about .030" or whatever is prudent so that you don't trim off the sides of you vice.

Piece of cake!!!

Go for it and have a blast!

=MB


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I've started with the eccentric rod. But I took some longer stock, drilled one end, and mounted it in the lathe with a live center.



Centers = Good

Hi Zee;
I would do this similar to how MB describes, using flat stock. You can do almost the entire piece in one setup in the lathe this way. All you need to do to finish it is drill the holes in the ends and cut off the excess left over on the ends where the holes were for your centers.

If you only have round stock, you can turn it into flat stock on the milling machine, (best this way), or you can cut the profile of the piece from the round stock on the lathe and then mill the flat sides. If you do it this way, you can chuck one end, but still need the center in the tail stock end.

Start by turning a ball on each end, the basic size of the small and large end of the crankshaft. You don't need a ball turner. With the tail stock center in the end that will be the small end, start by making a couple of 45 deg tapers, one on each side of what will become the ball. Then file the corners off of the 45 deg tapers to form the ball. If you draw the piece out, you will find that you can make a whole bunch of tapers instead of just the two 45's, and get closer to the ball shape. Brass is very easy to file in the lathe, though, and even with only two tapers, it won't take long.







For the taper between the ends, you would be okay to turn it taking light cuts. I doubt your compound slide will do that in one cut, or that it will even fit with the tail stock there at the end of the piece, but if it does, great. Otherwise, take light cuts and make two diameters on the shaft part of the crankshaft, and file it in the lathe with a fairly fine cut file. Just don't push hard, and you won't bend the piece.

The thing about starting with round stock, for this piece, is that you still have to make it flat in the milling machine after you have the shaft part done, so really, you might as well go ahead and make a piece of flat stock from your round to begin with.

For a tool, try HSS ground something like this, and used at this approximate angle in your tool post. Leave the tool flat on top for brass cutting. Put a very small radius or facet on the very end to get a nice cut.






Hope this stuff makes sense. Sorry the "drawings" look like a six year old did them. I'm not much good without paper and pencil.

Dean


----------



## vlmarshall

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Sorry the "drawings" look like a six year old did them.



He's seen worse. ;D


----------



## Metal Butcher

Plan B-2. Cut a 1/8" thick flat stock 3/16" wide (plus about .050) 1-1/2 longer than the overall finished length of the eccentric rod. In the mill trim off the rough cut side and size the work piece down to 3/16". The 3/16" x 1/8" dimensions need to be identical from end to end. Lay out the four scribed lines centered on the over size (in length) workpiece to define the two outer ends. Lay out and scribe the intersecting lines for the drilled and reamed 1/16" pivot hole, and the 3-48 tapped hole. After one end is reamed and the other tapped, remove the piece from the mill vice and transfer it to a four jaw chuck on your lathe.

Accurately center the slightly protruding work piece in the four jaw. Mark two adjacent jaws with a removable marker or crayon. These will be the two working (movable jaws). Check the accuracy of the centering on the work piece by chucking, and re-chucking, and checking to be sure the work piece is precisely centered using only the two working jaws. If necessary re-adjust all four jaws till the piece is accurately centered.

Center drill the slightly protruding end with a #1 center drill. Open the two working jaws and slide the work piece out just past the outer line that defines the square area on the end still in the chuck. This exposes the entire central area between the drilled and tapped ends that is to be turned down to 3/32". Bring up the tail stock center to the center drilled end hole. Turn down the area between the two inner scribed lines that define the drilled and tapped ends.

Return the work piece back to the mill vise. Clamp it in the vice with one end protruding just past one of the the scribed outer lines. Hack off the majority of the excess with a jewelers or fine tooth saw. Slowly side mill to the scribed line with small advances of the end mill. Reverse the work piece and repeat on the opposite end.

I woke up this morning thinking about your project.
I think its time for me to get back down to the shop and start my own project! :big:

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks MB and Dean.

I had wondered about starting out with flat stock instead of the round. I haven't looked yet but is there a significant difference in cost between round, square, or flat stock? I've been leaning towards using round when I can thinking (perhaps mistakenly) that I want to keep my other stock as long as possible.

I had gone ahead last night (twas Friday and I get to stay up like I'm a kid)...

I started with the round, center drilled the end, and put up a live center. Then I used the parting tool to define the ends of the round center. Then I kept switching between a left and right cutter and brought the center part to near diameter. Occasionally I could see the center bow a little. More concerning was that, a couple of times, I had to bring the tailstock in a bit. I don't know what was causing it to become loose. Everything was clamped. I didn't put a lot of pressure on the part for fear of bowing the center.

A light filing, some sanding, and then brasso and I was pretty satisfied with the center. I could have done a better job sanding.






Then I went to the mill. I mounted it on top of a parallel and squared it up. This went well until I needed to trim one dimension down to 0.125. For that I used shims to raise the parallel and another parallel from the side (a la tel) so there would be room for the shims. Took the part out once or twice to measure. Anytime I had more to do, I halved it, moved, shaved, and then rotated the part 180 before moving and cutting again.

Now I'm using the distance of the center to trim the ends. Next pic shows one end trimmed (the side parallel and shims are no longer needed).






Although I may be doing some things differently or possibly not good practice, I'm getting through the part.

In reading your guys' posts...I seem to be close. ??? Thanks also for the tips on rounding the ends. I probably won't do that in this engine...mainly because it's a cosmetic change and I haven't thought about how it would look in relationship to the rest of engine. Something to remember for future builds.

Vernon is talking about my drawings. ;D The other day he complimented me that my lines were getting straighter!

Thanks again for the replies...if anybody cringed at my method...please let me know so I can improve.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Zee, the method deanfold described is also a very good way to finish the rounded end and taper on the connecting rod. I use filling to round corners and cut down set up and machining time. 
However with all due respect to Deanfold, its best for you to learn machining methods first, so that filling doesn't become the only method at your disposal.
Use my plan B-2 and make the eccentric rod first.
The method I propose for the E- rod could also be used on the Con-rod with the small rounded end finished using a fine double cut burr by rotating the work piece on a 1/16 pin pressed into a block of scrap mounted in the mill vise. The taper should be turned by offsetting the top slide on your lathe. These areas could be filled by an experienced hand, but practicing proper machine techniques is a good way to face thees seemingly difficult parts. Face this and get it out of your way! 

-MB


----------



## Metal Butcher

Zee, I'm glade your were able to make you part. That's also a way to make this type of part but accuracy (centering) could suffer during the milling down process.

Zee, I mean no disrespect, but why did you ask for help if you new of a method, and quickly made the part?

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I'm the one worried about having asked and going ahead. I should have at least told everyone I was. My apologies if anyone thinks they wasted their time. Be assured the replies are very very helpful and worthwhile.

I did not 'know' of a method. That is to say, I did not know if it would be a good or a best approach. Your point about accuracy is exactly what I was thinking about.

As for quickly making the part...my (poor) thinking was this...I had two similar parts to make and I didn't want to go to bed (I wanted to machine)...so at worst I could have a go and learn and at best I'd have one part and could do a better part using the good advice that was coming (and was provided by you and Dean).

I see that you must have been making your previous post while I made my previous post. I really hope you don't feel like you wasted time...you didn't...this is very valuable information.

My apologies to all and thanks.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Zee, replies to posted questions are on a voluntary basis. Therefor, I don't feel you wasted my time. I'm glade you managed a satisfactory part with the method you chose to use. But as we both said its a method that could produce inconsistent results. Additionally, any future attempt of the use of this method could be useless if the length of the part exceeds the width of you mill vice. 
I think you can see the reason I posted my proposed method for making these parts. To recommend any other, or short-cut methods that could work would leave you in the same position you were in when you originally asked for help.

I look forward to seeing your successfully completed project. ;D 

-MB


----------



## mklotz

Almost inevitably, these parts that look like a long slender bit with a feature at one or both ends are seldom under any serious stress so little is gained by turning/milling them from the solid. I fabricated the valve rod on my engine.

Round the ends over. It'll look too "chunky" if you don't.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks MB. Very much appreciated.

Marv, I imagine rounding over could be done any time? So maybe after I get the thing together and running I can see how it looks. (Maybe I'm just getting too impatient to get this together.)

On that note however...rounding it over will make the faces that much smaller. I've had trouble sanding such small faces. Invariably it gets faceted if it's not exactly flat. I can only think of putting the part in some kind of tool that can be held parallel to the sanding surface. Any other suggestions?

Thanks.


----------



## mklotz

Rounding after assembly is fine.

However, beware the Jabberwock of rushing to get something assembled and see it running. This is ripe territory for making really big screwups. DAMHIKT. 

The rod has square sections at either end, the faces of which should be in the same planes. Lay some emery grit up on a flat plate (surface plate, float glass, etc.) and rub the part on it so its supported by the flats at both ends. Sometimes, using a block of wood to push the part back and forth will help to keep both ends in contact with the emery.

Another possibility (note, I've never tried this) is to set it up in the mill vise, supported by a parallel, and use a Dremel sanding disk as the tool to address the flat surfaces. I would try this on scrap before committing the part.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. You're right...a very real possibility when rushing...so I'm being careful.

Actually...had a screw-up in reverse. The slot for the piston rod was made too big. I was going to make the one end of the connecting rod bigger to compensate. Instead, I was trying to be so careful, I forgot and made it to plan. ;D

So now I'll be doing the piston rod over. Actually not too sad about this. The piston rod looks lousy because of the way I was trying to fit it to the guide. ;D

Good point on sanding these particular parts...the other end will help.


----------



## Deanofid

I don't see anything wrong with the way you did it, Zee. I had showed making a ball shape on the ends of the piece because I assumed the small and large ends had some kind contour. I've never seen the part, or the print, so don't know what it's supposed to look like.

MB, I mentioned filing the ball ends in lieu of a ball turner, which I expect he didn't have. It's not an easy way out. It's a way to do things if you don't have accessories like the ball turner, or profile cutters. And, filing _is_ a machining method. It's all moot though, if the ends weren't to have some kind of contour in the profile, anyway.

As far as the taper goes, I noted that making a proper taper with the compound was the way to go, if it would fit in the job. If you don't have a taper attachment, and the compound will not accommodate the job, you can also set over the tail stock to cut the taper.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

You're right, I don't have a ball turner or profile cutter. (I hope to address this sometime after this project.)

I've experimented with tapering using the compound slide some months ago with mixed success. Or, rather, failure. But certainly a big part of that was due to lack of experience, poor tools, and a lathe that needed trimming.

I think I'll give it a try. Good practice and learning.

Both you and MB have suggested starting with flat or square stock. For the flat/square stock I have though, it either doesn't fit (too small) or I would have to waste quite a bit of it. I'm in good shape with round.

The other possibility, as suggested, is to square up the round first. But I'm not clear why (or if) starting with flat is better. I still have to turn the center and that seems less hard on the machine than the interrupted cutting. And whether flat or round...it goes to the mill for drilling etc.

MB made the point about accuracy...what other considerations go into this?

Thanks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Here's the connecting rod...






I'm pretty happy with the dimensions. A little less happy with the sanding/polishing job. I know I'm developing a better feel for it...probably need to spend more time during the various stages. I've also found that I have to be careful with lighting. Looking at the part one way...it may look good enough to go to the next stage...but turn it a little...and discover valleys not yet touched.


----------



## Deanofid

Well, I think it looks good, Zee.
There are only a few aspects to accuracy on a part like this. The hole centers need to be correct as to distance, and on the center line of the shaft. They also have to be parallel to each other. 
The ends themselves can be just about any shape you like as long as it doesn't interfere with the operation of the engine. 
Same for the shaft part. It has to be a certain length to make the hole centers the correct distance, but other than that, it could be straight, tapered, or the shape of an hour glass, for that matter. You can work your own personal tastes around the base dimensions for a piece like this.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean!

I was looking at the parts and realized I got mixed up. This isn't the connecting rod...it's the eccentric rod.

Which means I haven't done the connecting rod yet. Which means I don't have to redo the piston rod if I compensate for it with the connecting rod.

Hmmm.

I'm thinking I'll go ahead and redo the piston rod. Not only will it look better, but I suspect it will work better. And so far I'm batting 100% that my do-overs are better than the original. :big:


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, That's a beautiful connecting eccentric rod - very well done indeed :bow:
Should look stunning with the rounding over


----------



## Twmaster

Very nice Carl. I'm almost as eager to see this run as you are.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> MB, I mentioned filing the ball ends in lieu of a ball turner, which I expect he didn't have. It's not an easy way out. It's a way to do things if you don't have accessories like the ball turner, or profile cutters. And, filing _is_ a machining method. It's all moot though, if the ends weren't to have some kind of contour in the profile, anyway.
> Dean


I tried to describe the proper machining methods to help Zee understand an learn good shop practices, and I hoped that he would appreciate it for the reasons I had. I Think he did, but he is a free thinking person like most of us and can choose whatever path he likes. 

In my opinion the use of a file where a proper cutting tool or attachment such a ball cutter could be made or used, is simply a "short cut method". I personally use short cut methods all the time. Nothing wrong with being a little lazy. As a hobby machinist It would be wise to take the time to take whatever steps are need to fill a gap that will soon return to be faced again, and again.

I still feel that the use a file were an accurate and repeatable cutting tool or fixture such as a ball turning tool could be made or used, is to me nothing more than a short cut method. And I find my self occasionally using a file on a spinning work piece. I believe that this is not a safe practice, and I would NOT suggest it to anyone.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree With you saying, "And filing IS a machining method"
I never considered it so, and I looked for solid proof of my belief in the event that I've been wrong all along. Maybe I'm still wrong.

Here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machining


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> to help Zee understand an learn good shop practices, and I hoped that he would appreciate it for the reasons I had. I Think he did,



I certainly did. And not to take away from that, I've appreciated every post in this thread...not to mention this forum.



			
				Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> but he is a free thinking person like most of us and can choose whatever path he likes.



True enough. What often happens is that despite good advice, a person may still take a different direction. Not all of the information may have been provided, assumptions may not apply, etc. Simple examples include:

"just put it in a square collet and..."...except I don't have a square collet (whether mentioned or not).

"just apply this method and...."...except I haven't developed that skill yet and despite the confidence every else has in me.

"just do this...that...and the other thing..."...except I want to learn how use this thingie here and that wasn't part of the method.

I'm not talking about this thread and or any person in particular.

I'm just saying that, in general, good advice is only part of the equation that goes into making a decision.

And if you don't agree with me...then my advice is for you to...

 :big:


----------



## mklotz

The rod looks great, Zee. And it will look better with the ends rounded over but later on that.

Some minor inaccuracy in the separation of the holes is literally of no consequence. Remember that this part connects to the valve rod which is threaded into the valve nut. That means that the valve motion can be adjusted by rotating the valve nut. That provides a lot of latitude for correcting for small discrepancies.

I don't remember how I tapered the connecting rod (part that goes from crank disk to crosshead slipper). Looking at my engine, it looks like it would be easy to use the compound on *my* lathe (may not be the case on your lathe). Hold the big end in a collet and support the little end with a live center while turning the taper. Leave enough extra stock on the little end to form the required center hole and then machine the center hole away after the taper has been turned.

If I couldn't do it as described above, I would simply file the taper by eye. Again, the exact dimension doesn't matter and the human eye is really good on very small parts. After all, the taper is there for aesthetic reasons and it's the eye that captures asesthetics. So, why not do it by eye?

Regardless of how you finally do it, it only has to look good. The taper doesn't have to fit into anything.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Zee, I agree with every thing you said. It takes a good amount of time to develop the skills needed to build simple projects like the ones we build as a pastime. Along the way its easy to avoid the things that need to be faced immediately, so that poor shop practice does not become a habit. I'm sure that many of us develop a certain style that may include a few bad habits. I'd like to think that bringing a little awareness of this fact to the surface might help some one to enjoy there hobby a little more, and in a safer manner.

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Filing by hand was the original approach (stated in the instructions but what the instructions didn't include was support at the end...which I will do in any case).

I'm going to at least set the compound up and see what's involved in using the lathe to do the taper. Doing a taper from the end of the part is one thing...having the added 'complexity' of the block in the way is another. The other concern I have is the use of the compound feed. I can't say the lathe is adjusted well enough for that.

Most likely I'll end up using a parting tool to work/clean the ends and then use a hand file. (Part of my 'reasoning' has been Dean's recent thread on filing. I've been doing a little bit of that...I'm enjoying it...and I've been somewhat successful at it.)

MB...thanks for reminding me...when I started this hobby last Feb and joined this forum...I talked about not developing bad habits. It's very easy to do...whether I'm just beginning or even once I've gained some experience. Always a danger.

So...right now I have the little piston rod sitting in a collet block...ready to get milled, slotted, and drilled.


----------



## Deanofid

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> I tried to describe the proper machining methods to help Zee understand an learn good shop practices, and I hoped that he would appreciate it for the reasons I had. I Think he did, but he is a free thinking person like most of us and can choose whatever path he likes.



MB, I didn't disagree with your description or your explained method, at all. I made it clear early on that I would do it in a similar manner.



> In my opinion the use of a file where a proper cutting tool or attachment such a ball cutter could be made or used, is simply a "short cut method". I personally use short cut methods all the time. Nothing wrong with being a little lazy.



I really don't understand the insistence that filing is some kind of short cut, or a lazy way of doing things. Zee said he didn't have any profile tools, and no mechanical taper attachment for his lathe.



> I still feel that the use a file were an accurate and repeatable cutting tool or fixture such as a ball turning tool could be made or used, is to me nothing more than a short cut method. And I find my self occasionally using a file on a spinning work piece. I believe that this is not a safe practice, and I would NOT suggest it to anyone.



Again, he doesn't have a ball turner.
As far as filing on the lathe goes. It is an accepted, common, and recommended practice. The recommendations, by the way, come from the likes of the Sheldon Machine Co. and South Bend Lathe Works, among others.




> Sorry but I respectfully disagree With you saying, "And filing IS a machining method"
> I never considered it so, and I looked for solid proof of my belief in the event that I've been wrong all along. Maybe I'm still wrong.
> 
> Here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machining



MB, if we are going to use wiki as our bench mark, (eh), then you may find this interesting:
_
"Machining in the mid 19th century was heavily dependent on filing_, because milling practice was slowly evolving out of its infancy."


Here's the link to the complete page;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_(tool)

If it was a machining method then, I don't see why it wouldn't be a machining method now. We can disagree on it if you like, and we will probably both be just as happy with what we think about it.

Dean


----------



## Metal Butcher

I have seen many models that were produced in the 19th century by model engineer's.
Their use of files is very evident in the quality of their work. This is a different century with modern tool and techniques. Today's standards can be and are much higher if one wishes to pursue the advancement of their skills. Filing a spinning work piece with a hand held tool is not a safe practice and I don't care who recommended it 50 or 100 years ago, seriously! 

If some one can show me a safer way of doing machine work, than I'll listen, otherwise , no thanks.

I think its best that we end this discussion by agreeing that were both stubborn.

-MB


----------



## Deanofid

You certainly don't have to believe me. When the people who actually made the lathes we still use today approve it as a normal machining practice, and when you can still buy brand new long angle lathe files from Nicholson, it makes it hard to argue the point.

Nicholson even has (new, as in current) charts for recommended lathe spindle speeds for filing on the lathe that provide surface feet per minute for optimum finish, along with cut recommendations for what file to use for press fit, running fit, and fine finish.

Search google for "Nicholson Guide to Filing".

Dean


----------



## Metal Butcher

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> You certainly don't have to believe me. When the people who actually made the lathes we still use today approve it as a normal machining practice, and when you can still buy brand new long angle lathe files from Nicholson, it makes it hard to argue the point.
> 
> Nicholson even has (new, as in current) charts for recommended lathe spindle speeds for filing on the lathe that provide surface feet per minute for optimum finish, along with cut recommendations for what file to use for press fit, running fit, and fine finish.
> 
> Search google for "Nicholson Guide to Filing".
> 
> Dean



Its not simply a matter of believing or not believing. That's not the point. I know that what you say is true. However, filing in a lathe is a dangerous practice, and their are pitfalls with recommending its use on an open and public forum. A new member may not have the experience and common sense required to avoid a serious injury. This is something worth considering.

The reason these files are still available today is to satisfy buyers like you and me who provide revenue for the manufacturer. Nothing more, nothing less.

-MB


----------



## dsquire

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> I have seen many models that were produced in the 19th century by model engineer's.
> Their use of files is very evident in the quality of their work. This is a different century with modern tool and techniques. Today's standards can be and are much higher if one wishes to pursue the advancement of their skills. Filing a spinning work piece with a hand held tool is not a safe practice and I don't care who recommended it 50 or 100 years ago, seriously!
> 
> If some one can show me a safer way of doing machine work, than I'll listen, otherwise , no thanks.
> 
> I think its best that we end this discussion by agreeing that were both stubborn.
> 
> -MB


OK. Here is a safer way to do machine work since some people think using a file and common sense is too dangerous. It is called using a CNC lathe Remotely. You have robots to load the lathe and robots to turn the lathe on. These are kept inside a bullet proof compound to prevent injury to any humans in case they were not using their common sense and something goes wrong. You also turn the robots on remotely.

This is my observation of how one person feels it should be done, it is not the way I would do it. I want to be able to use files with common sense.

How is your lathe set up? 

Cheers

Don


----------



## Metal Butcher

dsquire, I mentioned in an earlier post that I have used and I will continue to occasionally file on the lathe. I feel that I have enough common sense to avoid a serious injury.

I wish I could believe that every one out there that comes across this forum has the same experience and common sense.

Since I'm comfortable with a hands on approach to model engine building, a computer controlled, fully enclosed, machining center would not satisfy my needs.

However, I might consider a computer contolled swarf-bot! ;D

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Here's the connecting rod...or something like it ;D

For this step I used a live center (but apparently didn't do a good job of that...it began to wobble near the end of this). I used a parting tool to define the left and right ends of the tapered round. I parted down near to diameter and then used a left and right cutter to turn to the bigger diameter. Repeated the parting tool to get closer to the finished diameter and turned to outer diameter again.

At one point I made my 2nd mistake. Yeah I know...I didn't describe the 1st mistake...I don't know what it was...but I'm sure it's there. ;D (For all I know, I should have lost track by now.) The 2nd mistake was forgetting the bevel on the caliper. I kept measuring and cutting and was getting no closer. Reversed the caliper and found I'd gone to far. You'll see that later.

Then filed and filed. Used the parting tool some more to get to finished diameter. Sanded and used a little brasso to see.







Then it was onto the mill. Squared and trimmed the ends (to same size for now) like I did for the eccentric rod. It went pretty well. But...






if you look closely at the left end you'll see that the top edge isn't sharp. You can also see it on the right end. I'm not sure what happened. It's almost like the stock wasn't centered in the chuck. The rod looks nicely centered in the block. I don't think it was the wobble because that would've been on one end only. So I have one edge beveled ;D.

Before trimming the other end to size, I drilled and reamed the holes. Then I trimmed the small end. I hand filed the chamfers.

The result...






And the discovering of another boo-boo. In my joy and happiness, I got a little carried away with sanding and managed to hit the rod. I took some brasso to it but didn't spend a lot of time (I wanted to get the pic done.) It actually looks worse in the pic. I may clean it up more later.

The other good news is that it fits the piston rod very nicely!

What's left? The flywheel mainly. Need to drill a hole in the crankshaft and finish the holes in the valve cover too. Then it's fitting and finishing. I'm also thinking of a clear plexi cover (like Marv's engine) so I can see the valve action. (Besides...so far the valve and nut are some of my most satisfying work.)

Actually...I wouldn't be surprised that I'll find myself remaking some parts. :big:


----------



## mklotz

Looks pretty damn good to me, Carl. You're really getting good at this stuff.

I expect to see a running engine in the next week.

Re plexi steam chest cover... Remember to remove it and use the brass cover if you ever run the engine under steam.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Marv.

I doubt I'll make your deadline though. ;D

Going home for Thanksgiving next week. It'll be the biggest family gatherings (two of them) in several years.

Two days back here and then a quick trip just with 'T'. Mainly to 'get away' but she wanted some miles to keep her standing with the airline. So I gotta pay too. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Just wanted to add...the thread on filing by Dean, and the tips and techniques from Dean, MB, and Marv and everybody were real helpful and timely for doing the connecting rod. For example, the safe file...it turned out I had a file with a safe edge on one side. Real handy when I was working near the shoulders.

I might have the terminology wrong..in a rush...have to get out and do some real work. Rats...3 typos in that one sentence. Must....slow....down....

Misspelled every one of those last 3 words too. Sheesh.

[EDIT: 'real work' = 'her work']


----------



## Deanofid

Heck, that looks good, Zee.  I'm glad you have "joy and happiness"! We should all have some of that. Maybe we should all build a con rod and get some!

Not criticizing your pics. Just noticed that hot spot on the con rod shaft.
It's sometimes difficult to get a detail pic on something as shiny as brass. Highlights blow out, and there goes the detail. Often, taping a plain piece of printer paper over the lamp will even out the light. 



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 3 typos in that one sentence. Must....slow....down....
> 
> Misspelled every one of those last 3 words too. Sheesh.



Sometimes, you just quack me up, Zee.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

It got me. Stupidity got me.

I'm facing the flywheel. 1018. Getting long long curly strands.
I stop the lathe, pull the strands out, and start again.

I wasn't using pliers. Strand is razor sharp. Thumb slid right along it.

All cleaned and bandaged up. Got my pliers...at it again.

Now I just need to come up with a suitable story as to why there's a band-aid on my thumb so wife doesn't say 'See! See!'. I'm not too worried what you people will say. Your 'See! See!' doesn't carry the same weight. :big:


----------



## Twmaster

See! SEE!!

 stickpoke


----------



## ttrikalin

Rof} Rof} Thm:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Make no mistake...it was stupid (the chip strand thing).
I post it so that others will remember.

It's real easy to forget that a small lathe can hurt you. Sometimes it looks like a toy.
But it's not.

Thanks Dean. I did some 'fixing' on computer...I need to get a better setup.

Aw you guys...I knew it wouldn't be long. ;D


----------



## Twmaster

Yup, pretty easy to get hurt and a reminder (even if at our own expense) is not a waste.

I about took my fingernail off on a sharp end mill earlier this week. Never put your body parts anywhere near a moving spindle.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I've been good about making sure the machine is off. But it can also give you a false sense of safety. I've dinged myself a few times reaching in and forgetting the cutter was still there. You get a quick reminder that those things are sharp.

It's all about learning enough, quickly enough, before getting hurt too much. Sort of like growing up. It's amazing I survived childhood considering the stupid things I did when I was...more stupid? less smart? Let's say...'less experienced'. ;D

Well if you can't tell...I've taken the evening off...kids and granddaughter are over for an early Thanksgiving.


----------



## Deanofid

Too bad about the thumb job, Zee. Everyone gets a nick or half moon thumbnail now and then.  We just have to do whatever we can to be safe. 

On that subject, I keep these little green things on the back side of my HSS bits;













They are sold as thread or axle protectors at hardware stores like Ace. They come in different sizes and are color coded. 
I put these on whatever I think I may bump into. Any little brush up against a sharp thing on my arms or back of my hands, and I have red stuff coming out. The little "nubbies" save a bit of bloodshed in the shop. 
Won't help for razor strings of swarf, though...

Enjoy your family time, Zee!

Dean


----------



## mklotz

Pliers are so 60s.

Get yourself one of these...

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=825-0005&PMPXNO=2606774&PARTPG=INLMK3

Better yet, make your own. I just took a length of 3/16" stainless rod and forged the end into a hook, made an aluminum handle and hung it in a handy location.

I too am amazed that I survived my childhood. Sometime when I'm drunk I'll tell you about how I learned, by setting the basement wall on fire, that matchhead rockets must be tamped with care. Or, harvesting smokeless powder from WWI rifle cartridges by clamping them in the vise and pulling the bullets out with lockjaw pliers.

Don't forget to tell us how the family gushed over your engines.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Sounds like we have some similar stories Marv. No doubt other members can reminisce along with us. :big:

As for the family...I usually get a "uh huh", "yep", "that's great Carl"...but tonight my oldest came down to the basement and asked...ASKED...what new parts I'd made. It was great. Naturally I thanked her for lying to me. ;D Seriously though...they like the fact I found a hobby.


----------



## Artie

I dont think my poor long-suffering parents knew 1 tenth of the escapades..... now that I am a poor long-suffering parent I sort of feel a whole lot more empathy for them...

Goes round, comes round.... Karma....mmm....


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Artie  said:
			
		

> I dont think my poor long-suffering parents knew 1 tenth of the escapades..... now that I am a poor long-suffering parent I sort of feel a whole lot more empathy for them...



Then know too that your kids are thinking the same. Is this evidence that parents get more stupid over time? I hope my math is wrong.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not making much progress with the flywheel. Not sure what's wrong. I've tried several cutters and nothing is cutting. Don't want to rush it...so I did something else...

Plexiglass steam chest cover so I can see the valve action. (As Marv says...don't do this if you intend to run steam.)






I milled it just like the brass cover.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Zee, did you machine that plexi glass the usual way, as in brass, or aluminum. Do the edges and holes come out frosty looking?
I can't see the pics to well,l one of the tubes in my computor is going again! 

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Zee, did you machine that plexi glass the usual way, as in brass, or aluminum. Do the edges and holes come out frosty looking?



To answer that question...I must expose my ignorance. Dare I? Of course I do. Nothing's stopped me before. ;D

I can't say I gave it much thought. I was more intent on not ruining the clear flats and didn't think too much about the edges. I just turned it on and zipped by (somewhat slowly). In the middle of the process I did think about the edges...but only in terms of sanding them to get the exact dimension I wanted.

To be honest...I wouldn't have thought I could get anything other than frosty and would have thought I'd have to sand/polish to clean them up.

Ah...right I didn't answer the question. Frosty? I don't think I'd call it that. More like 'rough'...like you'd get after facing with an end mill or flycutting. (Er..what I'd get...)

Here then is an opportunity to reduce my ignorance (like all my posts). I would welcome any advice or suggestions on milling/turning plexiglass or other clear plastic. I've seen a couple of threads where people have made engines from acrylic. 

Thanks MB.


----------



## Deanofid

The little cover looks good, Zee. I don't know what to expect from the edges. I can't remember ever cutting plexiglas, so I'm in the same boat. 
You kept the part you look through in good condition. That counts for something. That stuff is easy to scar up.

Dean


----------



## JimN

Looks great to me Zee.

JimN


----------



## tel

... but won't that coin get in the way of the valve?


----------



## va4ngo

I believe a clear edge rather than a frosty edge can be obtained by applying some heat to the edge ( not flame but a high heat from a torch ) and allowing to cool. Try some on a piece of scrap.


phil


----------



## rleete

A fine sanding (800 grit or finer) and some polish will clean those edges right up. Make sure that you don't make it undersized! Heating that small a part will probably melt it a lot more than you want. It may warp, too.

In order to not have to remake it oversize (to allow for the sanding), bevel the edges towards the outside. Just a few degrees will be enough.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and JimN.
Thanks also for the tips phil and rleete.
tel? Well thanks for looking. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A very Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
I hope you all have a chance to share with your loved ones.
Be safe and enjoy!


----------



## Jack B

A happy Thanksgiving to you to Carl.
                           Jack B


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, where have you been, mister? 
Missing your stuff, and figured your thread was due for a bump!

Hope to see you at it again soon.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jack B.

Dean! Sorry..and thanks for the bump! Went out of town for Thanksgiving to visit family...got home...and almost immediately went out of town again for a short vacation with my wife. I've been trying to keep up with reading but haven't said much. Primarily cause I'm rushed and don't have much time to give my usual thoughtful and insightful replies :big:

Right now I'm in a cafe having my fourth cup of coffee. I figure two more are needed to counter-act last night. Oh to be young again! The cafe has wireless. Wife is on her laptop and I'm on mine. First relaxing bit of time I've had for over a week...and she's packing up...guess it's time to go go go again.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Home! Yay!

Now I have a whole lot of catching up to do. You all have been busy!


----------



## vlmarshall

Woohooo, HMEM is Re-Zeeped! 
Welcome back, man.


----------



## Deanofid

The M&M connoisseur is back!  Woot!!

Glad you're home and safe among the machines, Zee.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Zee--I've missed your posts. Glad you're back.


----------



## JimN

Same here Zee,,almost lost your thread to second page. 

Welcome back.

JimN


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow! Thanks all. You have no idea what that means to me. (Well yes you do...so you know it means a lot.)

I was out for quite a bit the last two weeks. This past week was about catching up.
Wife just left on another trip (Yay! Bummer!) so I'm hoping to get this engine done soon.

Thanks again!


----------



## kvom

> I'm hoping to get this engine done soon.



It's about time!  ;D ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom  said:
			
		

> It's about time!



And on that note...

I'm struggling with the flywheel...so I set it aside (i.e. walked over to the mill) and finished the porting and steam chest cover. The steam chest cover just needed polishing. (It still does...I didn't do a great job.)

Pic of setup. I used the dials to move the table. The blue marking is there so I can see whether I made a major screw-up.







First slot made...






Finished...






So the steam chest cover is used when running on steam (I doubt that will happen) and the clear cover is used when running on air. I doubt I'll finish up the edges on the plastic cover.

Some observations...

The bottom side of the porting cover came out pretty decent. That's what you see in the pics. The top side though isn't as nice. One corner is off and there seems to be a bit of chatter along two edges. I think it's due to flex of the cutter and I should have take more than two passes. However, the most likely error was not moving the table a few thou for cleanup.
*
A big big thank you to Vernon for sending me a 1/32 end-mill.*

That leaves 3 parts just needing a hole each and the flywheel. Then I'll find out what parts I have to do over. :big:

Cool! I see the 'preview' works again.
Fooey. You can see the ding I made against the end of the stop block.

[EDIT: End-mill is sticking out kind of far. I thought about it when I put it in but left it out so I could see what I was doing...but that might have contributed to the problem.]


----------



## Twmaster

Still looking good Zee. At the stage I am I'm making enough parts over that I could build a second of whatever object I'm working on...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Twmaster.

I was just looking at JMI thread on the same engine. (A worthwhile thread to watch.) His thread helped me catch a boo-boo in my build.

I missed the dimension showing .05 wide slot. Could just as well have been 1/16. So the slots are a bit narrow. I did wonder how I was going to get a file in there.

I think I'll leave it alone for now.


----------



## Deanofid

Heck, they look really nice, Zee. 

I can't see the finish in the slots, so am not sure of the finish issue you mention. A couple of things that may, (or may not) be related; 

The end mill seems to be hanging out in the breeze quite a ways. Choke up on it in the spindle as far as is practical and still get the job done. Tiny end mills fairly whip around. 

Don't know how fast you ran the spindle, so a suggestion for future; With a tiny end mill like this, let 'er rip. You could run this 1/32 size at 10,000 rpm and it would be happy -in brass. 

Both of these things can help with the finish the tool produces. 

Glad to see you back in the shop!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Dean.

I ran the spindle as fast as it would go and, yes, the end mill is too far out.
The finish inside the slots wasn't too bad but could have been better had I move the table left and right a thou or two. 'Finish' probably wasn't the right word. On the other side you could see one corner wasn't very tangent and the exhaust slot didn't look as square as the (non) square slot you can see.

It's great to be back in the shop ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well it's time to start fitting and sweating...

Here's a pic of all the parts I've made...okay okay...'good' parts...
I didn't show the screws and pins that came with the kit.






Here's a pic showing some of my travels...






Not all the parts are there...I managed to re-use some of them.

Two drill bits and a tap sacrificed themselves...okay okay...were killed by me.
There's at least 3 evil handles in there too.

And before you all go posting on me...that's right...the flywheel is missing.

For whatever reason, I've been struggling with that. I had much less trouble on the flywheel for the launch engine. I don't know what's going on. Certainly some of it was not having the cutter in the right place. Some of it was not having it ground properly. (Insufficient clearance so there was some rubbing going on.) I've tried a carbide, a carbide insert, and several HSS (one of which I ground). The thing that really gets me is that the HSS tool looks like it's being ground by the flywheel. It's not rubbing as far as I can tell. But it's getting gouged.

In any case, my time is limited...I'm on vacation with many plans for the shop that I dearly want to get done. ;D

So I may just use the flywheel as is until I have time to make another.


----------



## cfellows

Kind of puts in perspective the number of parts needed for these little engines. I wouldn't have pictured that many in my head. Of course, my projects always turn out way more complicated that I first imagined. Guess that comes from being an eternal optimist! Anyway, nice work, Zee! You have definitely achieved a professional look on the parts.

Chuck


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, that's a GREAT looking set of parts for your engine Thm: - I can't wait to see it assembled!
What's going wrong when you are machining the flywheel; any photos of that ? - somebody may be able to help.

As to the practice parts - keep them handy; you'll find a use for them one day 

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## 4156df

Zee,

That looks like a very nice engine to me. Interesting to see all the parts at once. I've considered doing that for my interminable steam tractor project as a way to convince myself that I actually am making progress. I'm curious if that was your reaction when you got everything visible?

Dennis

P.S. Not implying your project is interminable ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Chuck. I seem to be making good progress on 'the look'. It helps that I haven't tried to get better pictures yet. ;D Fit and function is another matter.

Thanks Arnold. No photos on the flywheel. I may just need to step back and think a little more about it.

Thanks Dennis. It has seemed interminable to me! ;D But yes...seeing all the parts was pretty neat. I'm in the middle of first assembly and I've been pretty happy for the most part. A little filing to get it to fit better. It also reminded me of my first erector set...lots of parts...put them together to make something.

First assembly going better than I'd hoped. I stole the flywheel off my launch engine. The bore is a little bigger but it works well enough to turn by hand and see that things actually move and/or where the binding is.

The porting cover needs to be modified. They should have stuck with the 1/16 wide slots I think. I made them .031...they should've been .05 according to the drawing...but even that I think is a tad small. I can barely see the ports underneath. Of course I may have made the ports wrong. ;D

The hole they specified for the pin in the reversing lever is way too small. I may have to redrill that after I measure the pin. Right now I just have a bit of wire stuck through to keep it together.

Here's a cheesy pic...
The paper is there to minimize scratches for now.


----------



## Deanofid

Fabulous, Zee. It also looks like you have enough parts to build a second engine..

You're so close to having a runner!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> It also looks like you have enough parts to build a second engine.



Almost ;D About 20% of the parts were made once, 60% twice, and 20% thrice. There may be a part I did 4 times. Sigh.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

It's together. Need to run it in some.
Instructions suggested making a wheel, mounting it on the mill, putting a rubber band around it...well...here's what I did.

I used the arbor from the slitting saw and wrapped a few rubber bands around it.
The flywheel is from the Launch Engine. Its bore is a bit large so it's not concentric. 3 rubber bands were each wrapped around 3 times.

It's wobbly but it's running the engine. Works either direction.





I did try some air...no way. In fact...I'm less than optimistic that it will work. But let's break it in first and see what happens.


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Neat run in setup. Don't despair probably some minor adjustment on the valve setting and it will run just fine.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## JMI

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Here's a pic of all the parts I've made...



Hey Zee,

Looking good. This is one of the things that is amazing about this hobby. Make all these individual pieces and if they are done within tolerance all the holes line up and with a little fitting you end up with a hand-made machine that operates.

What a hobby. I love it.

Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Don't despair probably some minor adjustment on the valve setting and it will run just fine.



He don't know me very well...do he?

Thanks Bob.



			
				JMI  said:
			
		

> Make all these individual pieces and if they are done within tolerance all the holes line up and with a little fitting you end up with a hand-made machine that operates.
> 
> What a hobby. I love it.



There's that big 'if' in there. I usually miss my 'ifs'. ;D Yes...great hobby. And if it doesn't work...just fix it. ;D

..............
Probably last update for the day...(or another test to see if I can stay away)...

I forgot that the bushing was supposed to be a press fit. That is to say...I knew it was supposed to be...failed to make it right...then forgot until now. The bushing keeps coming out and the engine binds up. Loosening the cylinder and rotating it slightly put sufficient pressure on it to keep the bushing in place. Otherwise, the slide block keeps popping out of the tilting valve. It seems pretty loose so I don't think loctite will be sufficient. But I can try it.

Another possibility is to drill through the side of column and install a set screw.
Yet another possibility is to make a collar with a set screw and put it on the other side. The downside there is that the oil hole in the bearing might get covered or be in the wrong place.

The bigger issue is the hole for the pin between the reversing lever and the tilting valve. I just have some audio wire in there and there's too much slop. In one direction the valve doesn't move at all. That might be the piece that I can't stay away from this evening. ;D

The good news is that it ran in one direction on air!!! woohoo1


----------



## Twmaster

Zee... You've taken on a complete project. To get as far as you have is a major accomplishment. A little tweaking and you'll be OK!


----------



## cobra428

"The good news is that it ran in one direction on air!!!"

Congrats Zee

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Congrats Zee Thm:
"The good news is that it ran in one direction on air!!! woohoo1"
Gail in NM


----------



## mklotz

If the bushing-to-standard fit is too sloppy for Loctite, perhaps you can get a bit of very thin shim stock in there. (A box of assorted shim stock is a good thing to keep in any engineer's tool kit.) Or, maybe JBWeld it in place.

A tiny roll pin may be the replacement for the audio wire. (That's what I used on mine.) Another possibility is to turn a brass pin slightly oversize and just drive it in.

Congrats on getting it to run in at least one direction! That should be excellent reinforcement and motivation to work out these little niggly problems. Have you done any valve adjustments yet? If not, we can talk about how to do that after you've got the mechanical problems licked.


----------



## vlmarshall

Congrats, Zeep! :bow:

Don't worry, if it ends up only running in one direction, a little video-reversal during editing will fool most of us spectators! ;D


----------



## Artie

Congratulations Zee, ive read a few threads here and they have several times mentioned the 'fettling' required to make a 'creation' run. I think you are simply one of the few to actually 'document' the required work to set up the beast.

Im damned impressed mate, and if it runs in one direction on air then it will certainly do so in the other once its sorted. Dont forget...its now PROVEN.....


Cheers and all the best,

Artie


----------



## Philjoe5

Nice going Zee. I live just about 30 miles or so from you and I could have sworn I heard a very loud woohoo1 this afternoon,

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## rake60

Congratulations Carl! Thm:

Rick


----------



## black85vette

Good work! Not much more to do now. Finish line is in sight. Thm:


----------



## Cedge

Carl
Just keep tweaking it. Most new engines have some birthing pains. Running it in will go along way toward getting it going. The combination of parts has to settle in so they work together with a minimum amount of friction. You're definitely in the home stretch!!!

Steve


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow! Thanks all! Not done yet though!

Thanks Twmaster, Tony, Gail, Marv, Artie, Phil, Rick, black85vette, and Steve...and oh yeah...'jerk'...I mean...Vernon, uh that guy who's been putting up with my offline questions. ;D

Marv...I'm going to see what the pin I have measures out at and maybe drill again. The manual gives some instructions on setting the valve but if I run into trouble I'll certainly appreciate the help.

Still a ways to go. But I'm feeling pretty good now. Even if it doesn't run well...it runs...and that means a lot to me!


----------



## ozzie46

Way to go Zee. You'll get it done now.


 Ron


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks ...'jerk'...I mean...Vernon, uh that guy who's been putting up with my offline questions. ;D


Hahahah! No problem, the offline questions are fun, and the "insider view" of construction is even better. I can't wait for the next project.


----------



## ksouers

Way to go, zee!!

You'll get her tweaked out just fine. Can't wait to see the full run ;D


----------



## va4ngo

One of my favourite quotes from I dont know who.

"Persistence beats resistance"

Well done Zee and you will enjoy looking at this model, as I have my own, for many years to come.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## joe d

Way to go, Zee! We knew you'd get there, even when you didn't think so :big:

A little tweaking, and then your problems really begin: deciding what's next ;D

Cheers, Joe


----------



## PhillyVa

Look'n good Zeep. Was it worth it....Oh yea, learning something new is always good.

Regards

Philly


----------



## Deanofid

You'll get it, Zee. 
There are always things that, at the least, need normal adjustment to get running in sync. 
Sometimes you have to chase down a few problems at one time, and eliminate those as you come across them. For the fellows that have built a number of engines, they know what to check for as the build progresses, and fix them as they go along. When you've only got a couple or three under your belt, you might not know what to look for early in the build, and you kind of have to find all the trouble spots at once when you try to get it going for the first time.

You're close if you have it running at all. It can't be too far wrong.

Dean


----------



## kvom

Looking good. Those parts look really well made. Waiting for the video with reversing. It shouldn't be too long now.


----------



## techonehundred

Zeep, 
Last year I built a version of one of these. basically I upsized it to what I had on hand. My machining was not very good (used too much of the TLAR "that looks about right" method)but here is what I did to tune it up and eventually I got it to run in both directions. 
1. It did not want to run very well at all first, so once I got it running a little, I ran it for about 3 hours and just got mesmerized by it. I noticed that about every 40 minutes or so, I could turn the air down and it would maintain the same rpm's. after the three hours, it had a really smooth feeling and turned over very easily. also, Mine did not work well with the aluminum flywheel and did much better when I went to a steel one. 
2. Once it would turn over real smooth, I went to tuning it. Like yours, I put plexiglass on the top so I could see the movement and tell where the valve was. I set the slide to where the valve did not move at all(or moved as little as possible) and locked the handle. I then adjusted the valve where I could see both holes open and centered as well as I could. 
3. Now I turned the reverse handle to the direction I already knew it would run and ran it in for a few minutes. I then would try changing the cam a bit to see if it ran better or worse. For my engine, It was amazing the difference just turning the cam 1/32". Patience is required here. Then I would try shortening or lengthening the valve rod a half turn. Once I hit the sweet spot and ran it for a bit, I then began to reverse it and see what happened. 
My engine still runs better one way than the other, but after about 5 hours of running, It will run both directions. 

This is just my $.02. I hope this is helpful.
For me it was just great to see it together. Yours is looking great. 

Anthony


----------



## arnoldb

Well done Zee ;D - one moment I was thinking how well it would look put together, and a bit later there it was, and already running! 
No fair - you got to play while I had to sleep 

Congratulations, once again.

Regards, Arnold


----------



## JimN

Zee, I am not sure where the bushing is, but why not make an oil cup with long threads on it. Install the oil cup deep enough to hold the bushing! Makes an easy fix to hold the bushing and gives you a place to oil the bushing also.

Reason I know this is did the samething to the engine I am now building, miss read the reading and made the bushing a slide fit instead of press fit. So I made the oil cups with long 2-56 thread that not only went into the bushing holder but went into the bushing. Once the oil cups where treaded in, the bushing was held tight in place.

Just a thought, LOL proably took more time to make the oil cups than it would have to just make new busihing.

JimN


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much all.

Ron, Vernon, Kevin, Phil, Joe, Philly, Dean, kvom, Anthony (great tips), Arnold (who plays while I sleep), JimN.

I really appreciate all the support and optimism.

I'm optimistic too. I drove the engine some more using the mill today. Both ways. It's loosened up quite a bit but still binds a little. It is mesmerizing just to watch it move.

The biggest issue right now is the pin for the tilting valve and reversing lever. I'll fix that tomorrow.

Then the bushing. There is no oil cup JimN. Just a hole that lets oil get to the crankshaft. I'm going to try a steel ball on the column or somehow ding it around the edge. Then loctite it.

I was taking it apart in preparation to wash and dry it and when I got the steam chest off, I put my thumb over the ports. That was cool! I could feel the compression as I moved the piston back and forth.

The other thing I noticed yesterday when I ran it on air was the sound. Very neat.

Couple of more days. Needs a display base and a proper flywheel. I may not wait though. ;D

Actually may be a while. Thanks to deadin I have to find a new happy dance tune. I was going to use Sweet Georgia Brown.

I've already used 'Found a Peanut'. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Aww, Zee! 
Didja have to mention "Found a Peanut"? Just got that outta my head a few days ago...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Didja have to mention "Found a Peanut"? Just got that outta my head a few days ago...



Glad to help Dean. If it gets it out again, let me know. ;D

....................

Re-drilling went better than expected...
Here's a pic of the setup...







I actually used my machinist's clamp for the first time. Thanks to Arnold for getting me to think about it again. Parallels and shims under the tilting valve to keep it parallel. (That part was per instructions.)

The pin measured .061 to .062. Now I know why the instructions said to drill and ream even though the dimension was .05. Must be another dimension they changed to 'make it different'. I drilled with #53 for .0595. Tight fit. No loctite needed. Should be fun if I ever have to take it apart. I don't know why it couldn't have been a small set screw.

Then the bushing...
Also went better than expected. I expected disaster and nearly achieved it.






There's a machinist jack I made under there with a bit of soda can on top. I dinged the edge with a screwdriver. Probably should have done more. Fit was tight so I went for it. Then found out that once the bushing was in place...it wasn't tight anymore.

I went for the loctite anyway. Loctite everywhere. Between the column and the base, in the screws.....sheesh. But I managed to get it apart and clean it up before it set. (I was prepared with towels and cotton swabs). Then I noticed the oil hole in the bushing wasn't straight up. A little turning and I noticed it was getting tight. So maybe it'll work.

Still have a good flywheel to do...it's beginning to look like a do-over. But my bandsaw isn't set up yet.
......................

Dean..these might help too...

The Ants Came Marching
On Top of Spaghetti
If You're Happy and You Know It
I've Been Working on the Railroad

and the ever popular

A Hundred Bottles of Beer on the Wall


----------



## cfellows

Nice looking machinist clamp... did you make that?

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Chuck!

Yes, I made it. I used a die cutter for the threads. I need to blacken it but have been hesitant because I like the look. (Although I like the look of blackened parts too.) This was the 3rd or 4th project I made when I started last February. All from 'The Home Machinist's Handbook'.

It was a lot of sanding ;D

Gee...it's almost been a year now.


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee 

And thank you for the honorable mention; I didn't realize just how handy those clamps are until I made mine. I must say though, your clamp looks much better made than the 2 crude ones I made :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold

To the tune of "There's a hundred bottles of beer on the wall":
1 Round of tuit on the list; 1 roundd of tuit; tackle one and do it; 2 new tuits on the list
2 Rounds of tuit on the list; 2 rounds of tuit; tackle one and do it; 3 new tuits on the list
4 Rounds of tuit on the list; 4 rounds of tuit; tackle one and do it; 5 new tuits on the list
8 Rounds of tuit on the list; 8 rounds of tuit; tackle one and do it; 9 new tuits on the list
16......

Aaaarghh - Zee, you just made me do it (and I know my tuit math looks obscure, but that's the way it works - sort of)


----------



## Deanofid

Those really are good looking clamps, Zee.


The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out...


Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Rof} Rof} Rof}
That was great. Completely forgot about that one. A favorite!
Darn...I think that one caught.

Thanks for the comment on the clamps Dean.

The best way to get rid of a song in your head...
Is to replace it with another...
"I wear my pink pajamas..."


----------



## Deanofid

Went over to visit my mother last night, Zee. She was watching Mary Poppins. 

Now, the worms go in the spoon full of sugar that helps the peanut go down.
I'm a mess. 

Dean


----------



## vlmarshall

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Now, the worms go in the spoon full of sugar that helps the peanut go down.
> I'm a mess.
> Dean



Ha, I love this place. ;D


----------



## Artie

Vernon  said:
			
		

> Ha, I love this place. ;D



IM SCARED!

Zee, building seems to be just the tip of teh iceberg... then the fine tuning and then the remaking the bits you want to be better.... what a great journey..thanks for taking us with you mate....]

Artie


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Artie  said:
			
		

> IM SCARED!



With good reason...

We sing children's songs.
We use M&M's to show scale.
We use pets for swarf magnets.
We dance and sing to the chuff chuff of engines.
We complain about the dropsies.
We don't drink milk...we cut with it.

And the humour threads in the break-room! I wouldn't doubt we're homework for students of psych, anthro, etc.

Probably on more than one watch list too.


----------



## rleete

So, what's next? Get to it man, we need a new thread to read!


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The good news is that it ran in one direction on air!!! woohoo1



Good work Zee, Glad to see the finished product.

Whats the next on the agenda? 5 cyl radial?


Robert


----------



## Deanofid

rleete  said:
			
		

> So, what's next? Get to it man, we need a new thread to read!



Ooo, let him get this one running first! 
He's only (super)human, after all.

DW


----------



## zeeprogrammer

rleete! What Dean says...well...mostly.
Robert! Good to hear from you. What are you up to?
Dean...(in)human. Superhuman and it would've been a 3 1/2" gauge loco!


----------



## Deanofid

Heck, Zee, I'd say anyone less than superhuman would have sold their lathe and taken up marshmallow roasting long ago. Look at the instructions you had to work with. Talk about kryptonite..

Dean


----------



## potman

Well, Well, Well !!!!

I just finished reading this thread. 
Yup, the whole thing. Every page.
What an educational and fun tour !!!
My thanks go to everyone who posted with information, how-to's and humour.

As for Zee:
Even though you pretend differently you are one self confident and gutsy fellow to expose yourself as you have.
A job well done.  :bow:

I do believe that this thread, all by itself, has convinced me to get a shop in order and start building my own engines.

Earl...

As to the kit:
I see that it sells for $79.95 and weighs 3.93 lbs.
$79.95 / 3.93 = $20.34 per pound.
It seems like at that price-per-pound they would have incentive to include a little extra material for you to hang on to.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

potman  said:
			
		

> I do believe that this thread, all by itself, has convinced me to get a shop in order and start building my own engines.



Earl...Thank you very much. To have positively influenced someone is about the greatest praise I can think of. I really appreciate your post. And like you said, everyone who's posted on here has made this thread possible and earned that praise.

Self-confident and gutsy? No...I've always struggled with a lack of confidence. For me it's been more persistence and determination. I've thought about this since I was a kid...it was literally now or never.

And I can't say enough about the members on this forum. What success I've had, and fun, has very much depended on them.

Put that shop together! Do it! Make engines!

Thanks again Earl. I look forward to seeing your shop take shape and engines being built.

P.S. Yeah...the kit's not a great deal. You can get the same (but better) plans on the internet. And if you're like me starting out, you'll be remaking some parts and have to buy more material anyway. And, while the instruction manual has several issues, it was better than nothing for someone that knew absolutely nothing about lathes, mills, and machining.


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Very nice Zee, I havent posted much lately but I have been following.
Well Done, a few tweaks and she will run nicely
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for watching -B-.


Finally got the new flywheel done. The one I did for the Launch Engine was a whole lot easier. Maybe it's because of the troubles I'm having with the lathe (brushes, control board, or something). But most likely I'm forgetting something...proper speed, height of cutter, etc. In any case...here it is...







Dinged the side of the flywheel when I went to drill for the set screw but was able to sand it out okay.

Forgot to support the wheel on a parallel or something and noticed the wheel move down as I started to drill. Luckily I saw it in time, stopped, put a parallel in place, readjusted and then things went very nicely.

Something else I've noticed...early in the project I broke a 3-48 tap that I had gotten in a set of miniature taps. I ordered two replacement taps from the same supplier. They look slightly different. More importantly they cut steel almost as if it was butter. I wonder if it's another example showing you're better off to buy a tool as you need it. (Although I've used everything from the kit except the 0-80.)

Now it's time to reassemble and starting running it in some more. (First though I want to sand and smooth up the connecting rod.)

Still need a replacement for my 'happy dance tune'...


----------



## cobra428

Nice Zee, how about Twist and Shout for the happy dance tune? :big:

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

So many songs...so many memories...

Mary Poppins...Spoonful of Sugar...I was in the Boys Choir...in my robe, lined up to go on stage opening night...started coughing...couldn't stop...they pulled me out. Turned out I had strep. After I got over that. I was no longer a boy. Ah well.

Twist and Shout...Made me think of Chubby's 'The Twist' (he doesn't live too far from here). Won the Twist contest at the AYA. Got an ice cream cone. Ah well.

 :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

IT'S NOT DONE!!!! but here's some pics of it assembled. It's being run in on air in one direction right now...












[EDIT: Runs great in one direction. Low PSI too. Has some bad binding in the other direction though. Doesn't run on air. I can put a rubber band coated drill up to the flywheel. A little better but still stops immediately when I remove the drill.

Tweaky tweaky tweaky...]


----------



## JimM

Congratulations Zee, that's a real nice looking engine. Bet you can't believe how far you've come in a year - I've been hanging around the forum for about the same amount of time and have yet to start my first build :-[  Must get myself into gear for 2010 !!


----------



## Powder keg

Keep it up ZEE!! Looks great!!!!!


----------



## arnoldb

> IT'S NOT DONE!!!! but here's some pics of it assembled. It's being run in on air in one direction right now...


What do you mean it's not done yet? - and you are doing just *what else* to it right now, *without a video* *knuppel2*?

Just teasing Zee - your creation is really really beautiful, and a very good example of craftsmanship IMO. I could call it "pretty" - but pretty is skin deep and there's a lot more here than just the outside appearance to appreciate!

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## mklotz

Very nice work, Zee. It looks very professional. That's a helluva lot of progress for less than a year.

With that engine it's easy to disconnect, one at a time, the valve connecting rod and the piston connecting rod while turning the engine over in the direction in which it binds. That should help localize the problem quickly.

You may also want to install the plexi steam chest cover to see if anything is binding up in there - although I doubt that that's the problem.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks JimM...and get busy!
Thanks Powder Keg.
Thanks Arnold..patience patience.

Thanks Marv. Yeah...that's exactly what I did. The first issue was in the piston guide at one end. I loosened the cylinder and shoved it back as far as it would go and that loosened things up pretty nice. I think it's still touchy so might have to file the holes a little (slot them a little). With that change, the system turns over pretty easily by hand.

I've got the plexi steam chest on it now (and thanks again for a great idea). Nothing binding but I think it's not well adjusted. So I'm going to play with that next. When the reversing lever is at one end...it works pretty well. But at the other end it's as if both ports are getting air at the same time. Turning the flywheel gives resistance.

Unfortunately I've been called for Christmas cookie duty and must go shopping right now. Wife comes home tonight and she and daughter are going to make cookies tomorrow. Come to think about it...that's not unfortunate...I get cookies!


----------



## Deanofid

I think it's quite an attractive little engine, Zee. 
I'm sure it's getting close to video time, but cookies are a priority!

Dean


----------



## mklotz

> When the reversing lever is at one end...it works pretty well. But at the other end it's as if both ports are getting air at the same time. Turning the flywheel gives resistance.



It's conceivable that the valve slide (the U-shaped channel in which the valve rod actuator slides) is not correctly aligned with the slotted reversing lever.

Try this experiment. With air applied and the reversing lever in the position where you're having trouble, try moving the reversing lever in small angular increments, locking, and then trying to get the engine running. You may find a spot where it wants to run.

Alternatively, and perhaps simpler to do, measure the angle the U-channel makes with horizontal/vertical at each extreme ot the reversing lever motion. The angle should be about the same.


----------



## Metal Butcher

1) Okay Zee, do your shopping, and what ever else you need to do.

2) Make any necessary adjustments on your build.

3) Finalize your build thread with a VIDEO.

4) No MILK & COOKIES for you, until you complete steps 1 thru 3! ;D

-MB


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Step 1: Completed...but I busted a bag of flour. I hope we have enough. Darn it...I can see into the pantry from here...we already have two bags of flour and sugar. She's going to kill me.

Step 2: In progress. Was working on it and it suddenly started having that same binding issue at the far end of a stroke. Took the cylinder cover off. Rats...piston is unthreading itself...effectively lengthening the piston/rod until it bangs into the cylinder cover. I'm thinking super glue. Wouldn't I still be able to remove the piston? Easier than Loctite? That's all I got. Well...Elmer's White...some gum...spit?

Step 3: There WILL be video.

Step 4: Awwwwww maaaaan!


----------



## Metal Butcher

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Step 1: Completed...but I busted a bag of flour. I hope we have enough. Darn it...I can see into the pantry from here...we already have two bags of flour and sugar. She's going to kill me.
> 
> Step 2: In progress. Was working on it and it suddenly started having that same binding issue at the far end of a stroke. Took the cylinder cover off. Rats...piston is unthreading itself...effectively lengthening the piston/rod until it bangs into the cylinder cover. I'm thinking super glue. Wouldn't I still be able to remove the piston? Easier than Loctite? That's all I got. Well...Elmer's White...some gum...spit?
> 
> Step 3: There WILL be video.
> 
> Step 4: Awwwwww maaaaan!



Hide the extra flour in your shop! The women folk never snoop around down there.. too messy!

Use just a tiny bit of the blue loctite, you should be able to take it apart. Don't degrease the threads and the bond will be weak.

I can't wait to see the video. 

Don't forget the video!

Did I mention the VIDEO?

V...I...D...E...O... ;D

-MB


----------



## Twmaster

He'll have plenty of time for a video this weekend. We are expecting a big azz snow storm here in the east...

Now GET BUSY Carl....


----------



## mklotz

Blue threadlocker Loctite can be disassembled with hand tools. Keep some of it along with the permanent (red?) threadlocker and the green Bearing Fit Assist in every toolbox. You'll be surprised how often you make use of all of them.

I laugh on your "Big azz snow storm". Pennsylvania weather drove me to California. Right now (1330 PST), the indoor/outdoor thermometer on my desk reads 71 degF on both scales. Another Xmas dinner on the patio is a definite possibility.


----------



## Artie

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Another Xmas dinner on the patio is a definite possibility.



Wow that would be nice..... far too hot for that here.....  :


----------



## rleete

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Pennsylvania weather drove me to California.



Pennsylvania? Bah, those southern guys have it easy. It hasn't made it above 20 in the past three days here, and it's supposed to get cold tonight. We might not make it out of the low teens tomorrow.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well its done. It runs. Looks decent enough but I think the quality of workmanship (dare I say, craftsmanship?) needs much improvement. But considering what I knew when I startedIm pretty happy. Yep. Pretty happy.

My regular happy dance tune was pre-empted. And I ran out of time trying to remember another (has it been so long?)so the vid ends with a tune that Im sure many of you will relate tothat isyou older folkslike me.





This started July 19. Its not just the fourth engine Ive builtits the fourth anything Ive machined. And for meits the first real engine. I dont mean to take away from the other engines Ive madethe wobbler, the rocker, or the launch enginebut this engine has features that sets it apart.

It doesnt compare to other works of art on this forumbut for methis was a very satisfying achievement.

What a trip. Wife came home after a year stint in Brussels, daughter #2 went away to college in TN, and daughter #1 had a daughtermaking me a granddad!

And what fun! What a great forum and great bunch of people. My most humble apologies to those I dont mentionbut just off the top of my headVernon (who spent a lot of time talking me through things.but still owes me beer), Marv (whos always looking over my shoulder and saying uh huh uh huh), Dean (who probably doesnt know what a Minstrel is), kvom, foozer, shred, Chuck, Gail, Arnold!, CC, Bill, Rick (who made the forum possible), Dave, KK, MB, Tin (the only one Ive actually met in person), Tony, Bob, Kermit, black85vette, Steve, Joe, Phil, Artie, Paolo, Rob, tel, Mike, Anthony, Jim, Wesley,

Okay I liednot off the top of my headstarted searching through the threadgeesh!its a long thread! But if you didnt see your nameyou missed it!

I know Ive forgotten someIm really sorry about that.but youre very much appreciated. Did I say Vernon? Marv? Should I forget Vernon?

Thank you all. Thank you very much. Like I said beforefinding this hobby was a life saver for me. Finding this forum means you all had a part in saving this life.


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
I think I wet my undies on that one. You are a crazy SOB and I luv ya bud, so from one crazy SOB to another...CONGRATS

 :bow: :bow: :bow:

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Bwahahhahhaaaa! That's beauty Carl!!


----------



## vlmarshall

CONGRATS, ZEEP!  :bow:
You, sir, are insane.  I'm jealous. 
This engine is just great.

What a fun thread. I can't wait for the next one.


----------



## SAM in LA

Love that Happy Dance.
I can hardly wait until I have a runner to show off.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Congratulations on your successful build! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Beautiful engine!

Great video! Happy dance good too!

With all the experience an knowledge you gained on this build, your next one should be a snap! (Unless of course you stop to write a book on machining techniques).

How about making the next one a 2 - 3 week build?

I know you can do it Zee.

Go Zee go...Go Zee go...Every body join in! Go Zee go...

-MB


----------



## Powder keg

Yeah!!! A runner) What you gona build next?


----------



## Maryak

*CONGRATULATIONS - ZEE*​
Best Regards
Bob


----------



## joe d

Zee:

Way to go! woohoo1

After seeing that happy dance, I presume you are going to add another hobby to this machining lark and try out for "So You Think You Can Dance" ;D ;D

Good one, looking forward to your next project

Joe


----------



## 90LX_Notch

Carl,

Congrats on a great build! Thm: Thm: Thm: I love the video! I needed a good laugh. Thanks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks all. Very much appreciated.

2-3 week build? Well I was thinking of a die holder...

Right now I'm going to take a little time and adjust the lathe and mill, make some modifications, and make some tools.

I do have the next engine project in mind though. Something that will require me to try some new things. Like silver soldering and sheet-metal work. However, there's at least two people who are going to cringe...so maybe I shouldn't say.

Well I'll give a hint. Remember how the Launch Engine was the 1st in the series? And how the Horizontal Mill Engine was the 2nd in the series? Yeah...let's all cringe together. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Most excellent, Dude!
Love that happy dance. Shades of Monty Python.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> However, there's at least two people who are going to cringe...



Whut? You gonna make sumthin outta wood?

And.. I've heard of a minstrel. I know who Jethro Tull is, and Madrigal, and everything.

(I may not be a singer, but I could be a servant.)

Okay, all the goofy stuff aside, you did a fine job of _learning_, Zee, and you got a nice running engine out of it, too!  It's a worthy accomplishment for you, and it makes a lot of us here feel good in the bargain. 
Now, admire it, make a tool or two that you've been wanting, and get back to the next big thing.
Excited to see what you do next, grand-dad.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Wood? What's wood?

Tony


----------



## black85vette

Zee; Great build thread (more like epic novel).  Lots of fun, lots of learning, and lots of growth. I think this thread will inspire a lot of new builders in their projects. Great looking engine and super runner too! Looking forward to the next one.


----------



## Artie

Zee, like all the others I couldnt be happier for you. A successful conclusion and a sweet engine....

....BUT.....

After seeing the vid... YOU NEED ANOTHER PROJECT PRONTO.... cause its obvious you have far far too much time on your hands already....

Good one mate....


----------



## arnoldb

CONGRATULATIONS ZEE !!!

On a job very well done indeed - and yes, you may call it craftsmanship!

I loved the video ;D - and your innovative use of chopsticks!

Also, a great big *thank you* for sharing the journey with everyone, I'm pretty sure everybody that followed along learned something along the line! (I learned a lot)

AaHa - some toolmaking next ? - go for it! - If you are talking about some sheetmetal work, you might have to make another toolmaker's clamp as well; they are handy in pairs for that job ;D

Kind Regards, Arnold
(Who will be having one from a VSOB on ice on you tonight! - Cheers!)


----------



## dparker

Zee:
Really like your engine, good job! I enjoy reading your project posts because when you ask a question so many knowledgeable people give you answers or suggestions on how to do something. I feel like I learn from each one of your projects and your humor keeps the flow going with the jokes and songs and all.
All this keeps me wanting to get back to building little engines but I seem to have acquired about 4 old Briggs & Stratton engines and a 1928 Maytag model 92 and a Maytag Twin cylinder engine in the last 2 years and have been playing with them. I just need to get back to feeling brave enough to make some of the small parts for model engines (Miser about 1/2 done) and get back into the game.
You do good work and are a excellent communicator and I feel I have learned quite a lot---thank you.
don


----------



## tel

ONYA Zee!


----------



## ozzie46

Congrats Zee. Thanks for the ride. I'll be there for the next one. 

 Maybe I ought to by a railway ticket? Hint hint. ;D ;D ;D

 Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Congratulations Zee----Brian


----------



## Kermit

This thread has been a very convoluted, twisty turning little joy ride for all of us. I learned a lot of things that have nothing to do with your mill engine, and loved it all. Even the semi-unresolved beer issue. ;D

Congrats Zee and thank you everyone else as well. 
Kermit


----------



## bearcar1

:big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: Rof}

Zee! That has got to be one of 'THE' all time greatest vids I have seen. Man, I certainly needed that good laugh! Your engine is a beaut'. You've certainly "come a long way baby" (remember those girlie cigs of the '70s? Virginia Slims? Who the Hell is Virginia anyway??) Whatever. I am very much impressed with how quickly you have caught on, having not done any machine work less than a year ago, well done and BRAVO!! Thm: Now then, go to your corner and have a bag (or two) of M&Ms. 


BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

Absolutely fantastic. Many, many congratulations. I never doubted that you would get there but it happened much faster than I expected. 

Your remark about this being your first "real" engine struck a resonant chord. Like you, this was the first engine I built after a succession of wobblers. It was my introduction to the concepts of double-acting, slide valves and reversing.

I hope that we'll be able to point future newbies to this thread as an introduction to "what it takes" to get there. It's a rich tapestry including buying and (reluctantly) making tooling, jigging and fixturing and learning to plan the order in which operations are done. But more important are the psychological elements buried in there - maintaining focus and motivation, learning which advice to trust and which instructions to cast aside, and, most importantly, how to be patient.

I'm very proud to have been part of the journey and I'm sure that all the others who helped you along feel the same way.

Again, congratulations.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you all very much.

And some special thanks to Marv and Vernon. I think of Marv as that special mentor who's always looking over my shoulder. As for Vernon...many thanks for all the time spent on YIM...now if you'd just deliver that beer you promised (you fink).

Most of you know I started this hobby last February.
With everyone's contributions and help, my hopes and dreams have been exceeded.
This is a great forum with some of the most helpful and fun people I've met.

Again, thank you all very very much for teaching me, for helping me, for having fun with me.


----------



## SteveG

That is some great talented work zee, on both the engine and the video 8)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Let the cringing and flinching begin...

This is the 3rd in the series...same company...same kind of instructions. ;D







I wanted to do this because it requires some new skills I want/need to develop. Notably silver soldering and sheet-metal. Looks simpler but it helps that it's a locomotive that will run on O-gauge track.

The drawing set is twice as large as the mill's drawing set...but the instruction manual is half.

But it will be a few weeks before I begin (he says). I do want to make some tools, machine modifications, and modify one of my workbenches.

To Work! To Work!

(If you haven't seen The Great Race...I recommend it. A movie that influenced me as a kid to want to make devices.)


----------



## mklotz

Those instructions demand the highest of security ratings - Destroy Before Reading.

Remember, don't practice silver soldering on your finely machined parts. Spend at least a week or so soldering scrap shapes of various relative sizes to get the hang of it before actually working on a real part.


----------



## bearcar1

Look out guys, Dr. Dred is afoot!!   Cool looking loco Z', good luck

BC1
Jim



that's in reference to the villian in The Great Race (60's version)


----------



## Twmaster

So with the awesome powers you now seem to have Zee we'll see that loco chugging around the tracks by New Year right?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks SteveG.

Ah Marv...too late. It's been in my 'leave me alone' room for some time now. Not too worry though. I've learned (some of) my lessons. Oh yes...I'll be experimenting first.

Thanks Jim.

Twmaster...my awesome powers are not appropriate for this forum...or as my wife would say...not appropriate for anything. Sigh. Well, I and any other 12 year old would think they're awesome.


----------



## seagar

Thm:Great work Zee,it's onward and upward from here .Can;t wait to ride the train thread with you.

Ian(seagar)
Coffs Harbour,
Australia.


----------



## JimN

Great engine Zee, and looking forward to your next build. I like you learned many things from your first build.

Great going Zee

JimN


----------



## ozzie46

Blow me over with a feather! I really had no idea.

 Purchased my train ticket and am anxiously waiting for the ride!

 Ron


----------



## ksouers

Hey, zee!

Congratulation! Man, what a ride!


----------



## shred

Btw, on that train, it appears they use DWV sink drain for the boiler. Needless to say that's not rated for pressure. I know lots of people have done it and used similar thickness materials, but to be safe if you plan to steam it, I'd think hard about using something more up to code. It is cute though.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Ian, JimN, Ron, Kevin.

Shred...thanks. Ah...DWV = drain/waste/vent. If I remember right, costs about $7 at Home Depot. Chrome plated brass.

Funny that...I bought one and about a week later I needed to replace the faucet in the bathroom. Drain was too short! Guess what I needed? Right...I have to make another trip to HD.

Hydro test calls for 60 PSI...Would I be right in assuming the working pressure should be half that? 30 PSI?

I think the OD is about 1 1/4" Would plain copper pipe from HD (if available) be better?

I look forward to any comments, words of warnings, words of wisdom. Thanks.


----------



## ariz

zee I didn't see that you had finished your engine, and that it's a running too!!!

many many compliments :bow: :bow: :bow:

I'm a bit busy at work in these days and so there isn't much time to browse the forum
I want to be honest: when I saw the engine in the video, a few minutes ago, I was a bit disappointed... 43 pages in this thread for that engine seemed too much to me :

but then the video went on, and I saw your dance and heard the music, and finally recognized you zee, and understood why you're a great fellow, that is a great engine and every page of this thread is worth :-* :-* :-*

thank you zee


----------



## shred

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Ian, JimN, Ron, Kevin.
> 
> Shred...thanks. Ah...DWV = drain/waste/vent. If I remember right, costs about $7 at Home Depot. Chrome plated brass.
> 
> Funny that...I bought one and about a week later I needed to replace the faucet in the bathroom. Drain was too short! Guess what I needed? Right...I have to make another trip to HD.
> 
> Hydro test calls for 60 PSI...Would I be right in assuming the working pressure should be half that? 30 PSI?
> 
> I think the OD is about 1 1/4" Would plain copper pipe from HD (if available) be better?
> 
> I look forward to any comments, words of warnings, words of wisdom. Thanks.


Hm... I'm going off Kozo's tables here (other boiler codes may vary)... For a plain cylinder boiler, 0.040" wall thickness is ok for 30 PSI in 1.25"-ish tube. End caps should be 0.050"+ thick without stays. All silver soldered of course.

It's tough to find specs on DWV, but it does appear that it can have 0.040" walls, so it could be ok. But... it's usually brass... which is sub-optimal in steam boilers for long term use. Maybe one of the more experienced boiler folks can chime in here with brass boiler shells and the suitability of such; my experience and my mentors has all been with copper. Type-L copper pipe (the usual hardware store stuff with blue printing on it) would have more margin as it runs ~0.055" walls, but be a little less pretty.

Although it needs some respect, live steam is a lot of fun.


----------



## putputman

Great little engine Zee. You sure have advanced out of the "newbie" group.

Got one problem though. It is Christmas season and all kinds of nice Christmas music, but that dang happy dance song is still running through my head for the last three days. Haven't heard that song since I was a kid and that was a long time ago.

Looking forward to your next project.


----------



## Wagner1975

Wow, what an awesome ride. Read every post from beginning to end. th_wav

Congrats ZEE to a great engine and thanx for everything I learnt.

Soon I might have enough courage to start my first engine! :hDe:

Merry Christmas Everyone from a very sunny South Africa
Wagner


----------



## arnoldb

Hi Wagner - Welcome to HMEM!

Zee did a great job ;D - and there is a lot to learn for everyone 

Please do give us an introduction about yourself on the Welcome thread 
And don't be bashful or discouraged about starting an engine; - just DO IT - you won't regret it!

Whereabouts are you from in RSA ?

A merry Christmas to you too as well
from your neighbour, Arnold
(In the equally sunny Namibia!)


----------



## ChooChooMike

GREAT JOB ZEE !!  :bow: :bow: 
th_wav th_wav

Love reading about your trials and triumphs and ultimate success 

I had started that engine a few years ago, then quickly decided I bit off more then I could chew in a semester's time while taking a machining class. I opted for a simpler horizontal mill engine (Rudy K. design) with fewer parts and got that running sucessfully.

This one is still on my list to build !!

Mike


----------



## deere_x475guy

Zee congrats, it's been a lot of fun for me to read through this build...can't wait to see your next adventure.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you very much putputman, Arnold, Mike, and Bob.

Welcome to the forum Wagner and thank you for putting your first post here.

Still a lot to learn...there was a recent post on a Stirling piston test in water (sorry for not looking it up)...and just read Arnold's post on getting good torque at low PSI. That's an area I need a lot of improvement. The mill engine runs but I think there's a lot of 'blow by'?....very easy to stop the engine with a little pressure on the flywheel. But I have no idea what to expect anyway.

Thanks again.


----------



## hobby

Very nice job
on your engine, you machined some intricate parts, that look like you've done this for years.

On a side note, if you have to deviate for a time, making a jig or fixture, to continue with the original project, 
look at it as another part of the overall project, because this hobby is about the enjoyment of machining parts, 
and jigs and fixtures, are little machining projects in themselves, 
plus the added benefit of the enjoyment of seeing these little projects perform, in making acurate parts, which is just as enjoyable as the running engine itself.

But this is not anything new that I'm sure you have already learned from this build.

Again keep up the good work....

Have a great day. 

Merry Christmas.
God Bless...


----------



## steamer

Outstanding Zee!  goody for you buddy you did it!

 th_wav


Dave


----------



## esteam

Excellent work Zee. I congratulate you. 

Erdem


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, I got through this thread finally and what do I find.....possibly one of the most creative entertaining and enjoyable videos I have ever gazed my eyes upon. 

Thank you for going the extra mile. 

Kel


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Kel. Very much appreciated.

I also see some posts since my last one...

Thank you hobby, Dave, and Erdem.


----------

