# Help with a knurling tool



## bazmak (Mar 9, 2017)

I bought a typical 2 wheel knurling tool and it does not work
satisfactory + it puts too much strain on the lathe
I would like to use the knurls and make a scissor style tool
Plenty of photos and kits online. but no dims/details
Anyone have one who can let me have basic dims i can nudge to suit
and make a start.I want to make this so i can the make a couple of toolmakers clamps,which i made 55yrs ago and the design hasn't changed Regards Barry


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## Cogsy (Mar 9, 2017)

bazmak said:


> + it puts too much strain on the lathe


 
I've heard many times that these type knurlers put excessive load on the headstock bearings but I don't think I believe it. I can't imagine we can (or rather would) crank the cross slide in to the material hard enough to put the same load on the bearings as say a 4" dia chunk of steel poking out 6" from the chuck where the torque would be huge. Not to mention the forces involved in normal cutting. I know I've taken deep enough cuts to hear the motor working harder at times, yet there's no change in motor sound when I'm knurling. 

So if it doesn't work properly you may be able to tweak it rather than having to make a whole new tool, but I don't think you'd be hurting your lathe with this type of tool.


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## dnalot (Mar 9, 2017)

Hi
I made one several years ago and have been using it ever since. I posted the  photos and a drawing here.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=20545

Mark T


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## chucketn (Mar 10, 2017)

Here's a set of plans from LMS: http://littlemachineshop.com/projects/knurler.php. I built on several years ago. Actually took the knurls off a bump tool.

Chuck


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## tornitore45 (Mar 10, 2017)

I do not know what size lathe Bazmak has but the littlemachineshop design seems to be kind of small.
It has 5/8" knurlers which are hard to find, the most common are 3/4".
There is no provision to hold it in the tool post, that I can figure out.
Whatever you do, make sure that the holding design resist rotation around the vertical axes.
When you are moving the knurl axially, the tool hags out quite a bit and likes to rotate around the tool-post if not securely restrained.


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## rlfervan (Mar 10, 2017)

Try watching Toms Video about knurling. It helped me understand the importance of having the correct size part to start off with. 

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCiVpi6qAk"]oxtool straight knurling demo.[/ame]
 Robert


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## chucketn (Mar 10, 2017)

tornitore45 said:


> I do not know what size lathe Bazmak has but the littlemachineshop design seems to be kind of small.
> It has 5/8" knurlers which are hard to find, the most common are 3/4".
> There is no provision to hold it in the tool post, that I can figure out.
> Whatever you do, make sure that the holding design resist rotation around the vertical axes.
> When you are moving the knurl axially, the tool hags out quite a bit and likes to rotate around the tool-post if not securely restrained.


 
Barry didn't give specifics of his lathe, he asked for plans. 
When I think about building something, I look for examples, the more the better. I built a knurler like the one in the plans, modified to fit my lathe and the material I had on hand. I expect Barry will do the same.

Chuck


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## Herbiev (Mar 10, 2017)

Cut knurling tools are much kinder on the lathe than form knurling tools but a bit more expensive


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## bazmak (Mar 10, 2017)

I have just ordered some straight knurling wheels and plan to make
a cutting/knurling tool.Two basic ideas I have seen,will try to combine ideas
watch this space


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## rodw (Mar 11, 2017)

Been very interesting watching Tom's video. So what I am seeing is that the only advantage of the scissor style knurling holder over the fixed style that came with my toolpost is that the scissors allow a greater range of diameters. I knurled some 4140 the other day and while it turned out OK, it was very shallow (which I did not think was surprising for that material!)

To say the scissor style reduces the forces on a small lathe just can't be correct when its all about infeed!


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## deverett (Mar 11, 2017)

Herbiev said:


> Cut knurling tools are much kinder on the lathe than form knurling tools but a bit more expensive



For anyone considering a cut knurler, have a look at GadgetBuilder's version
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/Cut_Knurler.html

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## bazmak (Apr 21, 2017)

I did my first knurling at school,and then some more during my apprenticeship
Never very successful,but crush knurling never is,so turned my thoughts to 
cut knurling .Various homemade tools on Utube,cheap and simple and some
VERY expensive commercial units.With the little information available and a
few thoughts in my head I decided to make one.So cheap and simple I did not
think it would work,so decided to fab a cheap bodgeup to see if the basic 
principles work.BOY DO THEY WORK,simple,cheap and almost professional quality at the 2nd attempt.I bought a single cheap straight knurler Ebay
simply because it also came with 3 pairs wheels and one fitted.I welded
a small piece of angle iron to a piece of flat,drilled and tapped and machined
2 no m10 cap screws to m6 shoulder bolts the packed and shimmed to centre height.Using a piece of 30mm dia steel,much tougher than mild steel I had a couple of practice runs and got a good knurl at 1 pass at 30 thou deep
Photos tell the story.Will play about a bit more before taking it to the next level
by maching a solid housing/tool to a much more acceptable standard.This is great,i have taken a video and will post when I have uploaded.WATCH THIS SPACE this has great potential.Best knurl I have ever done


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## bazmak (Apr 21, 2017)

https://youtu.be/TVX7lU6X_Wo
This was the first cut and was very good.Various further cuts were made
at different speed ,feeds and depths of cuts.Best knurl was obtained at
1 pass, 30 thou deep at nom 250rpm.I will try a few more with this rough and ready tool
with different materials and diameters before I make a more professional tool
Fully machined to fit directly on a QCTP or on the compound slide
Expect better things I am very pleased so far


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## Blogwitch (Apr 21, 2017)

Lovely result there Baz.

I really do like posts where people are experimenting with their ideas (and other people's) in an attempt to get a finished good result.

It looks like you have really proven this simple design.

Now make one that will give you square instead of diamond pattern 

John


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## joco-nz (Apr 21, 2017)

Ok that looks awesome.  I think you might have just convinced me to hold off making a typical pincer style tool.

Keep going, very keen to see where you take this. :thumbup:


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## bazmak (Apr 21, 2017)

Hi John,making a square pattern,was that tongue in cheek.Cant see how to make a sq patt. with horiz and vert lines.
The wheels are set at 45o each to suit the RSA which gives a sideways sq 
pattern.I was intending to change the angle to 50o to elongate the pattern
slightly along the axis and give a more diamond pattern,with a few other 
trial and error improvements.The ease of use and the cut pattern was of
such a good standard,it worth pursuing further improvements
Second thoughts,what would a pair of diamond knurls set at 45o produce ??
Going out to the shed now to start Mark 2


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## bazmak (Apr 22, 2017)

Started with a piece of 32mm sq x 80mm lg hot rolled mild steel
Cleaned up all around,machined to fit my std 4 way tool post
and machined the 2 knurlwheel faces at 40o rather than 45o
to try achieve more of a diamond pattern.Cant seem to notice any difference
and the orig at 45o seemed to cut better.Tested various materials from
1/2"brass,16mm dia mild steel,32 mm alum to 50mm dia tough steel shafting
with varios feeds,speeds and depth of cut.In general I would note the following-
the fine knurls 0.5p are only good for small dias.Good results on brass ,alum.
The medium knurls were best for all round use but the coarse knurls were OK forlarger diameters and aluminium.Lathe speeds were in general between 
100 and 250 rpm. Fine feeds were used throughout but hand feed was ok for light cuts.
In general knurl depth was 25 to 35 thou dependant on matl,diameter and knurl pitch and took a full depth of cut on steel of 30 thou as well as up to 
4 passes at 10 thou each to total depth of 40 thou.Multiple passes were easier
on the tool and lathe and each pass picked up with the previose with overriding on the cut knurl.AT THIS STAGE I AM VERY PLEASED WITH THE RESULTS and would recommend it to anybody over the scissor crush knurlers
Conclusion.The tool is easy to set up but must be on centre height,although I
machined to size and shimmed slightly just touching the workpiece until both wheels revolve confirms height.However a QCTP would be ideal for ease of setting,and if going that way then rather than make a tool to mount in the toolpost I would look at making a dedicated toolholder with the wheels mounted on to just slot into the QCTP. This is the way I will be going next
Keep this thread open


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## Blogwitch (Apr 22, 2017)

It was a tongue in cheek comment Baz, but I have done it by using a straight knurl and very fine cuts around the diameter with a single point threading tool, it didn't come out looking too bad, but very labour intensive, and without my DRO's, almost impossible to achieve.

It looks like you have really got this one under your belt :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: keep up the great work.

Also, as you may well know, there are more uses for knurling than just looking pretty and helping to hold things in your fingers.


John


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 22, 2017)

rlfervan said:


> Try watching Toms Video about knurling. It helped me understand the importance of having the correct size part to start off with.



You can do that but you don't have to, I've never measured a part for pressure knurling and I've never had a problem, you simply don't need to do it, John Stevenson once knurled a tapered bar to prove the point. 
Where, according to the tool manufacturers, you really should calculate the OD is for cut knurling, the comparison to gear cutting is actually valid for cut knurling.


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 22, 2017)

rodw said:


> Been very interesting watching Tom's video. So what I am seeing is that the only advantage of the scissor style knurling holder over the fixed style that came with my toolpost is that the scissors allow a greater range of diameters. I knurled some 4140 the other day and while it turned out OK, it was very shallow (which I did not think was surprising for that material!)
> 
> To say the scissor style reduces the forces on a small lathe just can't be correct when its all about infeed!



A clamp type knurling tool does reduce side load on the spindle bearings and, often more usefully, bending moment on the work. With a clamp knurling tool you can knurl areas on a part, without using support, which could damage an unsupported part. 
My Brown & Sharp clamp knurling tool has flats on the clamp knob so you can use a spanner on tough materials, I suspect you'd have got a good depth of knurl on your 4140 with a good clamp knurling tool.


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 22, 2017)

bazmak said:


> Started with a piece of 32mm sq x 80mm lg hot rolled mild steel



Nice Job Sir! 
Just a suggestion here, but if you also make a single wheel tool on a round shank you'll be able to do straight knurling with a 30 degree wheel, possibly with some interesting slow spiral variations by varying the angle of presentation ;-)


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## bazmak (Apr 22, 2017)

Good thinking.I bought a single straight wheel knurlier to get the
sets of wheels included,i may be able to rework as you say.Also thinking about a vertical hinge pivot as the commercial ones to give auto compensation for self centering on height.Plenty to play at now the simple basics are proved
What I am happy with is its so simple to make and works so well


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 23, 2017)

bazmak said:


> Also thinking about a vertical hinge pivot as the commercial ones to give auto compensation for self centering on height.



It's about having both wheels cut to the same depth, you should set the tool as accurately on centre height as possible, the adjustment is to let both cutters contact the work at exactly the same point of in-feed and ensure both knurls cut to the same depth, ideally you wouldn't want the head free to pivot whilst cutting. The commercial tools have locking screws which you slack off allowing setting of knurl wheel contact and then tighten to lock it for cutting. 

 - Nick


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## Blogwitch (Apr 23, 2017)

Baz,

This is a very good read and watch if you have an inkling to learn a little more

http://www.clickspringprojects.com/vintage-style-rope-knurls.html


John


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 23, 2017)

Blogwitch said:


> Baz,
> 
> This is a very good read and watch if you have an inkling to learn a little more
> 
> ...



John, 
Interesting but aren't they Form Knurling tools as opposed to Cut Knurling? 

 - Nick


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## joco-nz (Apr 23, 2017)

Nick Hulme said:


> John,
> Interesting but aren't they Form Knurling tools as opposed to Cut Knurling?
> 
> - Nick



Nick - yes they are pressure knurling not cutting.  But Chris's videos are so well produced they are worth watching, if only for the entertainment value.  The fact they are also so informative is just icing on the cake.


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## Nick Hulme (Apr 23, 2017)

I was just checking I hadn't missed some on-topic video content ;-)


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## bazmak (Apr 23, 2017)

John,thanks for posting the video clip on rope knurling.The Klipspring videos
are masterfully done and very informative.Will keep rope knurling in mind
to try out
Nick ,yes I am looking at the importance of correct height of the cut knurling tool.As stated in my post I machined the holder to correct height and then fine shimmed.If not spot on the you get an uneven knurl.That is why I suggested
that a QCTP would be ideal for holding the cut knurling tool
I am about to go out to my shed and start Mark 3. A slight swivel on the tool
whether locked or not.if allowed to float a few thou ,I feel may act as self
centering and solve the problem.Basically as the cheap 2 wheel commercial knurlers do..As you know when I get my teeth into something.Watch this space


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## bazmak (Apr 24, 2017)

Just finished Mark 3 and it works a dream.Perfect knurl first time Main points
45o angle works the best and is the easiest to mount on adjacent faces of sq bar. I skimmed down to 25mm sq and drilled and tapped for the wheels
As you know from my previous threads I have a family of 3 and 4 way tool posts,so I tailored one to mount the new wheel head.I machined a spigot to 
allow the head to pivot slightly and self centre.Can be locked or allowed to float
Previos tests showed that steel worked well so I bought a length of 1214 free 
cutting steel ,so I know what I am working,and 20 dia ,max thru the headstock
I envisured lots of trials but only made one .No tailstock support.
Speed was about 180rpm and fine feed.Tried a faster feed but not as good
The medium knurls worked best previously with a cut of 25/30 thou so that's what I did.The knurl head will easily cut this at one pass at 20 dia 1214
but multiple passes are needs for harder steel at say 50mm dia.Again all 
can say its so simple and easy to use.I will never again crush knurlers,clamping
or otherwise.For all you out there give a try and post results.Best thing since sliced bread.Soon as I have cleaned out my shed and cleaned down the lathe I will set up the camera on a tripod and post a video. Here endeth the lesson


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## bazmak (Apr 25, 2017)

A 2 min video take approx. 1 hr to upload ,so I don't do many
However this tool works so well that I have made 3 videos of knurling
3 matls Steel 1214,alum 6061 and brass.Each video was one attempt
doing what I have learned and to prove consistent results.All matls cut well
on a range of feeds and speeds.With the head unlocked it does self centre
but I noticed a slight movement on cutting to avoid any problems I did lock
after starting the cut.Did notice any difference.For the 1.5mm pitch knurls
depth of cut is 25/35 thou and when examining under a loupe the knurl
appears very good and checking the diameter showed the knurl size to be the same as bar size.Any crush knurling would increase the dia slightly and too 
deep a cut would reduce the dia.All in all to mind perfect.The final version Mark3 is simple to make and compact and easy to use with no strain on the lathe and no need for tailstock support.I may make a knurled locking nut to 
replace the m6 nyloc nut as it seems better to just nip up the head after the cut has started and the head has self centred.A couple more photos to finish off
and that now completes this thread.A worthwhile project will get lots of use











https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=NEJrenClW2U

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&vi...www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=N8BNzPGbMx4


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## Blogwitch (Apr 25, 2017)

These should display better Baz

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJrenClW2U[/ame]


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BNzPGbMx4[/ame]


John


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## bazmak (Apr 25, 2017)

Thanks john,there were a set of 3 here is the brass one
I have lots of sample knurls now so will make a few thumb screws
Always seem to want one but usually couldn't be bothered setting
up for poor quality knurl.Hope to get some use out of this wonderful tool https://youtu.be/0WgiDyafkfU


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## bazmak (Apr 26, 2017)

Well I now have a surplus of knurled round bar so made a few thumbscrews
varios sizes and shapes.Made and fitted one to the mark3 knurlhead to replace
the nyloc nut.Ideal,loosen off, feed the knurls to the work to set centre height
and nip up finger tight for cutting.Just takes out the slight rock


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## Blogwitch (Apr 26, 2017)

You can never have enough tightening knobs 

I wasn't trying to be awkward by showing those two videos of yours, just your links didn't work for me, so I made them universal.


John


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## bazmak (Apr 26, 2017)

no problems john,im gratefull just don't know what I'm doing wrong
and how to correct it


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## Blogwitch (Apr 26, 2017)

All I do Baz is once I get the video up and running on Youtube, all I do is copy the URL at the top LHS, and once you paste it into your post in it's own line, it should open it up like I did with the two above.

This is what the URL should look like, without the quote marks.

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WgiDyafkfU&feature=youtu.be"

and when posted direct into your post, it should come out like this.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WgiDyafkfU&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


John


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## bazmak (Jun 8, 2017)

Has anybody yet made this tool.Its brilliant,simple to make and use.Where I used to avoid knurling I now look to do all the knurling I can
I originally made 1 knurl head and 2 bodies,1 for each lathe,however the heads are so easy to make,i decided to make a family rather than change 
wheels.The only minor niggle with the mark 3 was the large cap heads made
it difficult to get in close to the chuck,so I made brass bushes for the wheels
and used a smaller button head capscrew.I now have a family of 4 from
fine to coarse  wheels that interchange between lathes.Please someone make
this wonderful tool and post


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## oldboy (Jun 8, 2017)

Where to get wheels and what size wheels do you use.  Could I contact you direct.  My email is [email protected].  Love your work.  Would like to ask you some things about the small lathe.  The new one please.

Barry.


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## bazmak (Jun 8, 2017)

Barry, nice name.I have sent an email.Knurls were from China (ebay)
Single tool holder and 7 straight wheels were $26,extra pair of wheels
for 1mm pitch were $3.50 ish. Feel free to email me back


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## WOB (Jun 16, 2017)

The video in post  # 31 is NOT a cut knurling tool.  It is not making any chips.   It is essentially a swage knurling tool the way it's being fed.   If it was fed away from the headstock it  might be a cut knurler.  See [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0fxhb5D_T4[/ame] for a real cut knurling tool in action.

WOB


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## bazmak (Jun 16, 2017)

Thank you for your input WOB,but I beg to disagree.The knurls do cut,do produce chips and produce good quality knurls.Proably not as good as
the Dorian but what is the price of yours.I assume you have bought it
or have a commercial attachment to it.I have seen an animated video of 
the Dorian and it looks brilliant,as an animation.What does it cut like in 
real life.However I digress.I will admit that my homemade tool is not to the same std as yours or the same price.All I can say it does cut and produce 
a good quality knurl,and the price,next to nothing.Perhaps you could upload
a real life video and let us know the price. Regards barry


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## Blogwitch (Jun 17, 2017)

If you are in a production environment making dozens or even hundreds of knurls per day, then I think the Dorian could pay for itself within a very short time, but what we do normally in our little empires, doing knurling only every so often, then Baz's offering is the perfect solution to what we really require.
I have in my shop some of these very expensive bits of tooling that were bought (not by me) to carry out some production machining being put through my shop in a previous life. Now they are just languishing there, hardly ever used. Very nice to have when you can use them, but definitely not essential for what we get up to.

John


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## BaronJ (Jun 17, 2017)

Brilliantly done Barry.


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