# Question regarding Tiny



## Alex (Jul 16, 2007)

Hello all,

I'm new to the world of model engineering, but got some experience using a lathe.

I've decided to have a try at the little oscillating engine named Tiny. Everything is clear except for one thing. What's the technique for machining the port face on the column? I would be very glad if you wanted to tell me a little closer. 

Best regards

Alexander, Sweden


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## Ralph (Jul 16, 2007)

Welcome Alex !!!
             I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself here and there's a wealth of knowledge here also. As for your port-face on the "Tiny" engine, I'm no expert but I just hand-lapped it on a flat surface with fine grit sandpaper. It runs like a top. They are pretty forgiving as far as tollerances go. Have fun with it.
                               Ralph


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## Alex (Jul 16, 2007)

Hello Ralph, and thanks for your welcoming!

Did you start rough with a file or did you hand-lapp it with sandpaper all the way? Did you make any kind of jig to hold it in the some position while lapping?


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## Ralph (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Alex,
    I started with a piece of half inch square stock and cut it to length. After drilling the ports just hold it in your fingers and make circular motions on fine grit sandpaper turning the part ninety degrees to avoid getting out of square. No jig required, just a steady hand. Good luck
                     Ralph


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## rake60 (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Alex 
I milled the flat in a mini-milling machine.
The part is small enough that it can be milled in a lathe without a milling
attachment.  It can be clamped tightly in the tool post holder and milled
with an end mill chucked up is a 3 jaw.


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## Alex (Jul 16, 2007)

Hello rake60

Your idea sounds interesting. What size of end mill do you recommend?


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## Alex (Jul 16, 2007)

Ralph,

If I got your message right. You started to cut it to correct length, drill the ports, lap the square piece rectangular and then turning to final shape?


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## Ralph (Jul 16, 2007)

Alex, Sorry I misunderstood your dilemma. After seeing Ricks pic I realized I didn't know what I was talking about. The "Tiny" I thought you were refering to, like mine has all square parts. (standard and cylinder) It too is a simple oscillating engine, just not as cute as Ricks (round base and cylinder. Sorry if I tried to lead you down the wrong path.
 Ralph


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## Alex (Jul 16, 2007)

No worries Ralph! Do you have a plan of that engine you want to share?


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## Ralph (Jul 16, 2007)

Hi Rick, 
     I've got the plan just dont know how to post it. It wont copy and paste


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## Ralph (Jul 16, 2007)

Help me out here and I'll be happy to share it.
                                   Ralph


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## rake60 (Jul 16, 2007)

I'd use an end mill larger that the width of the flat.
A 7/16" or 12MM would work.  Snug up the gibbs on the cross slide
and lock the saddle so it won't suck into the end mill.

Before I had the mini-mill I built Elmers Horizonal Mill Engine, doing all the
mill work on the lathes.  




The piece was shimmed to center in the tool post and the 1/8" pockets in 
the top face were milled with a 1/8" end mill chucked in the 3 jaw.  To drill
the 25 degree holes I set the compound to 25 degrees and chucked the
drill bit in the 3 jaw.  
A machine is limited only by the ways we _can't_ think of using it.
But use them SAFELY!

You can download the plans at this site:
Elmer's Engines 2 Yahoo Group

Ralph you'd need to post your plan to a server then place a link to it here.
If it is in .jpeg form Photobucket will work.  If it's .pdf and you'd like to 
share it e-mail me.


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## Alex (Jul 17, 2007)

Rake60,

Would this also work for the cylinder of Tiny? Milling on side of a round bar. Maybe it's hard to get the piece parallel with the tool post holder.


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## rake60 (Jul 17, 2007)

The cylinder is brass so it would mill easily.
To get a good clamping you'd need to place a piece of thin flat stock 
across the top and try to keep even pressure on all the screws.
If your tool holder is indicated perpendicular to the chuck, all you need to
do to keep it parallel  is put a piece of too steel behind it tight against
the back of the holder.

There is an _OLD_ set of plans for building a lathe milling attachment at 
this link: 
http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-milling-attach.pdf
They would give you an idea of what it should be anyway.


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## Alex (Jul 17, 2007)

Thanks, seems as a good device.

What do you think about building it totally in brass with exception for axles, pins and axle bearing which I intend to make out of some bronze I have laying around. I've never turned brass but from what I've understood it's a lot easier than steel. I also like the idea not having to paint it to prevent from corroding.


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## rake60 (Jul 17, 2007)

You can make it out of any material you like.
I would make the chankshaft and flywheel steel as you said.
When it's running it can spin pretty fast.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBX0HQEA3zg[/ame]


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## Ralph (Jul 17, 2007)

Hi Alex,
    I posted the plans you asked about, in the plans section. Its the "David"  and its easy to build. Have fun.
                              Ralph


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## 1Kenny (Jul 18, 2007)

Some questions about little crank and rod pins.

 When the term _drill rod_ is used does that mean useing the shank portion of a small drill bit by just cutting it off to the length needed?

Is the rist pin full floating......or pressed in the piston, floating in the rod......or pressed in the rod floating in the piston?

Is the pin for the flywheel just pressed in and is something like 680 Loctite used to hold it?
 :? 

The Tiny engine looks real cool.


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## Alex (Jul 18, 2007)

Hi there Kenny,

Not sure about the drill rod. But I do know that there's no wrist pin at all. The piston and piston rod can actually be made in a single piece. Take a look at this link and you'll understand how the piston and rod act.
www.keveney.com/oscillatingSteam.html


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

When I build steam models with 1/6 or 3/32 shafts in them, I use welding
rods.  If you chip the flux off the steel rod it's self is usually mics real
close to size.


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## Alex (Jul 18, 2007)

What about silver steel for axles and pins? Is it overkill for these kinds of engines?


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

I use what I have on hand.
I've made 3" flywheels out of bronze that I picked up at a local scrap yard
for $5   Current market for 3" 660 bronze rod is about $14/inch.
Sure silver steel will work if it's something you already have, but I 
wouldn't pay the extra to buy it just for the models.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 18, 2007)

Hi all,
Drill rod is an American term for silver steel here in the UK.
Usually it comes in 13" lengths, and is actually a carbon steel rod that is ground to fairly close tolerances. It is ideal for making shafts because of the close tolerances it is made to. If you use it for shafting, you can in fact harden it by heating to a cherry red and quenching in oil or water, and it goes very hard. I use it mainly for making tools for the lathe or hand punches, but it must be tempered after hardening because it is too brittle to use and is likely to snap. You can temper it by first polishing the surface then bring it very gently to a straw colour using a blowtorch, then quench again. This still leaves it hard but not so brittle or prone to breakage.
The cost is very cheap.
Hope this explained it ok for everyone.

John


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks John, we do have different specs for different materials.
Its helpful for all of us to understand those differences.
Here drill rod is annealed, ground, general purpose  tool steel.
You won't cut it on a home shop machine.   I believe that was what 
Elmer Verburg was referring to in his plans for the "Tiny" but I still used 
carbon steel.  When it wears out I'll make replacement parts.  :wink:


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## Airhead (Jul 18, 2007)

Hi, every one.  I hate to start out here disagreeing with the site owner, but...
Rake, it sounds like you're saying that drill rod isn't machinable in the home shop.  In fact it machines easily with HSS tooling.  At least as well as common 1018, maybe a little better.

I keep a range of sizes on hand because it's so handy.  It has a nice finish because it's ground to size (I believe within a half a thou, close enough for what we do).  For guys that are lucky enough to have collets for work holding I think it would be invaluable.  It is also pretty cheap, all things considered.

In the USA it comes in three foot lengths and in three different flavors.  Water hardening, oil hardening and air hardening.  Water hardening is the cheapest and what I keep in the largest range of sizes for general purpose use.  The problem is that it is the most likely of the three to grow and warp when you try to harden it.  I've even had pieces crack!  This is why I keep oil hardening drill rod in 3/8 and 1/2 inch, the sizes that fit the collets of my mini-mill, and so the sizes I use to make custom cutters that need to be hardened.  I have not had any problems quenching and tempering any of the (admittedly few) cutting tools I have made with it.  Air hardening drill rod is the most expensive and is supposed to be the best at holding its shape and size when quenched.  Buy only when needed for those properties.


Rick


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

I have a tough time with 4140 steel in my basement.
Maybe all the aluminium, brass and cast iron has me spoiled.  
I've worked with drill rod a few times and was never able to get it to
cut.  What I was getting had a hardness of 57 Rockwell. 
I ended up grinding it.


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## Alex (Jul 18, 2007)

To cut silver steel, is it best to hacksaw near the desired length and face to correct length, or just cut it off with a parting tool?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 18, 2007)

Tonight I cut the column for the Tiny Engine out of stainless steel. Then cut a rod/piston from bronze. Fun so far. Have to set-up for the flats tomorrow.







[/img]


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

I like the direction this is headed.
How about a category on metals? 
I sense a poll coming.   :lol:


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## rake60 (Jul 18, 2007)

Lookin good Kenny


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## Alex (Jul 18, 2007)

You've got a great start on your little project there. How are you planning to mill the flats. May I suggest using the lathe?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 18, 2007)

Hello Alex,

Yes, I am going to clamp the column sideways and off-set in the 4 jaw chuck. After cutting the flats on the first side will rotate it 180 degrees and use a large tool bit between the chuck and column to square it. Then cut the second side...............At least thats the plan.


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## Alex (Jul 19, 2007)

Are you going to face the column instead of milling with a milling bit? Sorry if I seem slow- just new to this.   

How do you make sure that it's rotated exactly 180 degrees? When I build mine I'll leave one side round, I think.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Alex,

Yep, just going to face the column on the lathe. Seeing Rakes pictures has sure helped. Thanks Rake.


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## Alex (Jul 19, 2007)

Kenny,

Did you make the column and base plate in one piece?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Ok, got the flywheel, crankwheel turned, ready to do the rod pin hole. I used a #3 centering bit last night when boring the crank bushing. What a mistake as the 1/16" drill bit traveled off center on the far side. Found the #1 center bit and will make another.

Still haven't made the flats on the column. An end mill in the tail stock while the column is off set spinning sounds like an easy way to face the flats.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Yes, the column is one piece of stainless steel. Faced the base first so the under side would look pretty and polished it before sawing it off the bar stock.

I should have made the flywheels first. I could have made the boss for the center line of the crank bushing a little higher on the column. Could have used the center hole of the flywheel to set the crankshaft center line.


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## Alex (Jul 19, 2007)

You are a fast worker, Kenny! Looks good! 

I just made an order for the material- hope to get started soon. Oh yes, got to get a lathe also. :wink: While in the tools section, has anyone of you guys heard about a company called Meec Tools? They make two small lathes which would suit my little shop. Know if that's anything worth to lay some money on?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Flats on the column are done, Once the crank hole is centered it can be used to keep everything square with the drill bit and a block on the chuck face. Still had to off-set it to do the top flats. They are with in .003.
















Cylinder is next.


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## Alex (Jul 19, 2007)

It's getting together beautifully.  

A little question regarding 4-jaw chucks. I've seen that there are two different types; self-centering and individually adjusted jaws. Is it possible to put a workpiece off center only with the later type?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Have not see a self centering 4 jaw. I like the independent jaws to do off-set work. You do have to slow the chuck down. The imbalance can make the lathe jump around.


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## rake60 (Jul 19, 2007)

Have you ever seen a scroll _(self centering)_ 6-jaw chuck?





I don't have it yet but it's on my wish list.  HUGE LIST!   :roll: 
The 6 jaw is for chucking up thin wall parts without distorting them.
That 4" one would be perfect for my 9 X 19 Grizzly lathe.


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## tattoomike68 (Jul 19, 2007)

Kenny has been flying right along, Nice work.

I have been reading this thread for a few days thinking "Mike,Get off the computer"

I picked up some metal today so I can start on an engine, it wont be fancy I just want a runner.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

That 6-jaw would be high on my list too. Think I would need a new lathe to go with it.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 19, 2007)

Ya, thats all I want too, Mike.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 20, 2007)

Got the cylinder and the stand made. Got to make a new piston, fasten the cylinder and drill the air ports. Hope it runs.

One question. Depending on what side the air ports are drilled is the direction it runs. Looking at the flywheel side is it clockwise?


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## rake60 (Jul 20, 2007)

Kenny it will run in which ever direction you spin the flywheel to start it.
Just start out with low pressure.  It will run without even registering a 
pressure on a regulator and at 5 PSI its buzzing!


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## 1Kenny (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks Rake,

Hoping it wasn't 20-30 psi.


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## Alex (Jul 23, 2007)

Well done, Kenny!  Oh, can't wait til I get to start building mine. What pressure did it run on?


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## rake60 (Jul 23, 2007)

Looks Great Kenny!
They are a busy little thing when their running.   :lol:


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## 1Kenny (Jul 24, 2007)

Alex,

I don't have any idea about the pressure. I did drill a smaller orfice in the inlet fitting to lower the air pressure. I forget what gas law covers dropping the pressure that way. Have an quick release on it and have plugged it directly into a 175 PSI air compressor and it drops the pressure just fine. I have to get a "T" fitting so I can tie in a carb gage to find out the pressure. That may take me a couple of days before I have the answer.

Thank you guys for the encuragement to make the Tiny. I love the way it sounds.

Kenny


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## rake60 (Jul 24, 2007)

Kenny 

*Harbor Freight* sells a real cheesy little air pressure regulator for about $5




I wouldn't trust too far, but it's great as an in-line regulator for these 
little engines.


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## tattoomike68 (Jul 24, 2007)

That little thing zips, I have to make one of those too.

Good job Kenny.


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## 1Kenny (Jul 24, 2007)

Yep, I have a couple of regulators. I have over 2 hours running on it now. It is so much fun to play with.   I changed the bore and stroke from the print when I made it. It has a .2188 bore and a .250 stroke so that makes it 0.00939992796287948 cubic inch.


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## lugnut (Jul 24, 2007)

And how many Horse Power? :roll:


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## rake60 (Jul 25, 2007)

Don't know the HP, but I can say if you hold it by the base to show it off
running at high speed and that crank clips your thumb nail it will make 
you say things that you normally wouldn't.   :lol:
Done THAT!


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## 1Kenny (Jul 25, 2007)

So true. The crank pin will draw blood.  

I work part time in a camshaft shop and have been thinking about seeing if the head flow bench will pick up the air flow it is pumping. I know the little thing turn will not turn the dyno but I want to see if the software will say the HP it's putting out by logging in the specs.


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## Alex (Jul 26, 2007)

What do you lube your engines with?


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## rake60 (Jul 26, 2007)

Alex said:
			
		

> What do you lube your engines with?



I use *Marvel Mystery Oil*  on the crank pins, shafts and eccentrics.
I've never used a lube in the cylinders of any of my own models, but 
none of them have ever run for an extended period of time either.
I've heard some say that powdered graphite is a better cylinder lube than
an oil.  I can't tell you if that is true, because I've never tried it.
Maybe someone else here has?


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## Alex (Jul 27, 2007)

With its name in mind you don't know the viscosity I guess?  :wink: 

When constructing small engins like Tiny, do you bore or ream the cylinder bore?


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## 1Kenny (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey Alex,

Marvel oil was made for top end lube for steam engines. It is a very good lube and has time proven it's self in many types of engines. I have it in my shop. 

Use any oil you want, your engine will tell you what it likes. The only mistake you can make is useing _NO_ oil.

My "Tiny" has been running on Mobil 20/50 V-Twin oil, as does my lathe.


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## shred (Jul 31, 2007)

I just got done making a Tiny last night (still needs a little cleanup, but it's running-- photos later).  It's the first Elmer Engine I've built, and also the smallest.

It took a couple days-- it would have been done a lot sooner except I got lazy and snapped my #57 drill drilling the column ports and was so irritated that I trashed the part trying to get the broken end out (in hindsight, there was an easy workaround, but I didn't see it until too late :?)  So, I made a second column and used a #56 drill, which doesn't seem to have affected anything.

I did a few things different from the instructions-- 

-- I skipped the drill jig and just calculated where the column ports go and did all the drilling in the mill-- IIRC the ports are close enough to .05" either side of the centerline.

-- I made the cylinder out of 3/8" brass rod.  Flatten the column side to make the mating face and it saves on rounding later.

-- Not having a 2-56 setscrew on hand, nor the tweezer-operated hex key one would need, I counterbored for a SHCS, which technically helps with the balance, though the actual need is a little doubtful.

The only other boner besides the column I made was tapping the steam connection 5-40 before realizing I didn't have a 5-40 die to make the matching part.  Ah, well, I'll drill out a bolt or something.

Elmer's a funny guy, sneaking a #65 cross-drill of some 1/16" drill rod in the plans.   :wink:


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## Alex (Aug 2, 2007)

Congrats on your new engine. Hope to see some pictures later.


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## rake60 (Aug 2, 2007)

As we've said before shred, plans are just for reference.  
If we all made then exactly to print you'd be able to buy them at
WalMart for $9.99  

My last project engine called for #70 drill holes through a 1/16" pin for a
keeper wire.  My mill won't grip anything smaller than a #60  so
I drilled .040" holes through the pins.  .010 wall thickness if it's dead nuts
on center.  First one turned out fine.  Second one broke through the side,
so I made a third one.  The third one lead off and broke through the side
again.  I said....  well never mind what I said, but I used it anyway.  It 
was for a keeper wire.  It works just fine and nobody will be killed or 
injured if it fails.  

I guess what I'm trying to say is I think your revisions show the type of
thinking that makes a home modeler.
One final comment....


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## shred (Aug 2, 2007)

rake60 said:
			
		

> As we've said before shred, plans are just for reference.
> If we all made then exactly to print you'd be able to buy them at
> WalMart for $9.99


Yeah, it's amazing how much you can get away with on a wobbler-- so long as the port holes are in about the right places, and everything else is more or less in rough alignment, it'll work. 


> My last project engine called for #70 drill holes through a 1/16" pin for a
> keeper wire.  My mill won't grip anything smaller than a #60  so
> I drilled .040" holes through the pins.  .010 wall thickness if it's dead nuts
> on center.  First one turned out fine.  Second one broke through the side,
> ...


Yeah, I'm working on pics.  I was going to document making the parts only to discover the camera wouldn't cam anymore.

I ended up doing the cross-drill with a tiny carbide burr since my drill set only goes to #60-- they're fairly easy to come by disguised as Dremel bits or PCB mills.

Anyway, to the point in the "how do we do it" thread, hopefully my changes help highlight to new builders that just because you don't have a #97 drill or 1/7-16 tap or whatever, it doesn't mean you can't build something-- you might have to get a little more creative is all.

Oh yeah, Alex, I reamed the bore, though Elmer's instructions are to bore it with a tiny boring bar.  Doesn't seem to matter much.  Elmer did a lot of things on the lathe I did with a mill just because it made more sense to me that way or matched the tools I had better.


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## Bogstandard (Aug 2, 2007)

You want pictures, well here's a couple. I don't usually release pics until the job is done and dusted.
Started today on a UK version of your 'Tiny', it uses the port setup and dimensions from Tubal Cain's 'Jenny Wren' combined boiler and engine.
It called for a two part crankshaft, with the crankpin inserted into the crank disc. But I find it easier just to chuck up in the 4 jaw and turn the pin while making the crankshaft. This was done on my 'old' atlas lathe and is made of silver steel (drill rod).











Took about an hour to make.
The pin will be cut to length after assembly.


John


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## Alex (Aug 2, 2007)

John,

Wow, that's a tiny crank! Great job!


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## shred (Aug 3, 2007)

Low-res cell-phone pic:


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## Bogstandard (Aug 3, 2007)

Lovely work. 
It's so nice to see so many variations on a theme and the way people get around problems.
Wouldn't life be dull if everyone made things exactly the same.

John


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## 1Kenny (Aug 3, 2007)

After reinstalling the rod pin a half dozen times useing everything from locktite to super-glue I now see how to do it. Make it as one unit.


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## Alex (Aug 3, 2007)

Nice engine Shred. Is it all brass?

Kenny, what do you think about soldering the crank pieces together? Another solution might be JB Weld. I've used it on one of my steamer locos with great sucess.


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## 1Kenny (Aug 3, 2007)

Alex,

I haven't tried JB weld. If it comes out again I will try it. I think John is on the right track with making it one piece. I did solder the the crank wheel to the shaft through the column. The big part of the problem is me as I am running it in the way too fast range.  

Shred,

That looks real nice.

Kenny


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## shred (Aug 3, 2007)

Alex said:
			
		

> Nice engine Shred. Is it all brass?
> 
> Kenny, what do you think about soldering the crank pieces together? Another solution might be JB Weld. I've used it on one of my steamer locos with great sucess.



Thanks.  It's almost all brass, except for the pins and crank disk which is currently an interesting shade of purple-gray from a soldering attempt.  I started out making a 12L14 steel column, but trashed it due to impatience (see above) and had a short length of .700" brass rod lying about, so that became the new column.

The pin that holds the spring on also isn't brass-- it's an IC socket pin from a circuit board that had an interesting look to it and was a convenient size. 

2nd Kenny's comments on the crank-- the offset hole I drilled with an undersized 1/16" drill (I didn't know that at the time), and it press-fit nicely, but the center hole, with what turned out not to be the same drill bit, came out as a loose fit and all manner of locktite, superglue and solder didn't help it stay put how I wanted it without making a mess, so I ended up peening the end of the shaft a little oval with a small hammer and that's holding up.

I came close to making a whole new crank disk-- it's not that much work and I made that one too thick to begin with, requiring some extra cutting elsewhere to make the piston rod align properly.

If I were to do it again, I'd consider the one-piece construction, but my lathe skills might not be all there for that level of work.  Failing that, I'd go straight to the undersize drill and press-fit-- I prefer adhesives that can be removed in a pinch in general, but they didn't work well enough on this part.


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## Alex (Aug 3, 2007)

How much smaller than the rod is the hole? I have a drill bit that is .004" smaller than the crankaxle and pin. The hole will of course end up a little bit larger.


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## 1Kenny (Aug 3, 2007)

Thats where I feel I messed up, not under sizing the crank wheel holes so the shaft and rod pin would have a press fit.


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## Bogstandard (Aug 3, 2007)

The way I get a good press fit on small bits is to drill the next size smaller than the shaft then using a pin chuck open out each end of the hole to the correct size for the shaft but leave a small area, maybe 0.010" in the middle of the hole at the smaller size. This allows a good force fit but not too much where it will damage the parts, this also allows you to use a locking adhesive as well.
If you have drilled all the way thru and the shaft is a sliding fit, mark where the part should be located on the shaft and using a centre punch, put lots of little centre 'pops' regularly spaced around the shaft where the part goes, this should then allow the part to be force fitted onto the shaft in conjunction with adhesive should make a very strong joint. If the shaft is from very hard material that won't 'pop', you can, if it is on a part that is not seen, centre pop around the hole at both ends, this will effectively reduce the size of the hole at either end and again in conjunction with adhesive should give a nice tight fit. 
Don't use a hammer to force fit small parts, all it does is deform the hole and make it slack. I put a piece of soft metal in the drill chuck of my miller or pedestal drill and use it like a press, a vice can also be used for pressing together small parts.


John


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## RollaJohn (Aug 3, 2007)

Bogstandard said:
			
		

> If you have drilled all the way thru and the shaft is a sliding fit, mark where the part should be located on the shaft and using a centre punch, put lots of little centre 'pops' regularly spaced around the shaft where the part goes, this should then allow the part to be force fitted onto the shaft in conjunction with adhesive should make a very strong joint.
> 
> John



Don't get carried away with the depth of the dimples. I witnessed a 'know it all' who had heard of this procedure place deep dimples around the shaft thus raising a large rim around the craters. When he started to force the shaft into the bearing race the ridges rolled over onto the shafts surface making a very tight fit. So tight the shaft quit moving.... he got a bigger hammer then forced it until the parts were basically welded together!! 
He was following the rule: ...If it jams force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway.

So remember you can always dimple a little deeper if it is too loose the first time


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## gt2ride (Sep 16, 2007)

Here is my Tiny. Setting on my 6in Square. 






Just kidding.  Here is a closer pic.


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## 1Kenny (Sep 16, 2007)

gt,

Good looking engine. I like the brass ring on the spring.


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