# Harold Hall's precision grinding table



## xo18thfa

Something Ive always wanted was a better way to grind HHS tooling for the lathe. Research on the internet found a really neat precision grinding table designed and built by Harold Hall.  This is Mr Halls grinding table:







The table is used in conjunction with a regular bench grinder. The plan for this table is in the Workshop Practice Series #35, Milling, A Complete Course






I started one of these and its about 1/3 done.











There are a series of attachments for the table. They include a lathe tool grinding, drill bit sharpening, end mill sharpening and others. My main purpose is for lathe tool, but would like to sharpen drill bits too.

Its turning out very well so far. I think its going to do the trick.


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## tel

Certainly looks to be coming on well Bob, if my experience of Harold's designs are anything to go by, it will work well. In truth that one is on my 'to do' list.


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## Maryak

Bob,

You won't regret it. I made one around 4 years ago. I found a cheap grinder at an Auto shop and all ??? ??? ??? I have to do it fit a safety guard for the wheel and I'm good to go.

Your is looking good.

The Other Bob


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## steamer

Looking Great Bob.....Am interested in this...alot of the attachments could find a home on my Baldor Style grinder.......would be nice to sharpen endmills...

Dave


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## Omnimill

Looking good! Thanks for posting the pictures - keep em coming.

Vic.


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## xo18thfa

Thanks guys. I did a dumb thing and got the wrong size dovetail cutter. So awaiting the right cutter. About 30 years ago I bought a set of drill bits at the original Wal Mart store in Arkansas. They are the best set I've ever had. I would like to bring them back to life with the drill bit attachment.


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## xo18thfa

Making progress on the Harold Hall grinding table. I did a boneheaded thing and ordered the wrong size dovetail cutter for the slides. So while waiting for the correct cutter, I got on some other parts.






Basically have the lathe tool grinding accessories done. I am panning to do the drill bit sharpening attachment at some point too.

The adjustment knobs turned out very nice.






The increments were made on the lathe with a V held side ways in the tool post. A piece of paper tape with 30 increments wrapped around the lathe chuck. Each increment got three cuts, adding 0.002 depth for each cut. At the end, a very light skim took off the burrs.

The lead screws have 32 threads per inch. Each increment on the adjustment knob is 0.00104 (doing the math).


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## Maryak

Good progress Bob :bow:

Mine came to a stop here http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8511.msg97069#msg97069

Best Regards
Bob


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## jmshep

Bob
I made the simpler version of Harold Halls grinding table and the drill sharpening attachment.
They both work well but maybe worth pointing out that the drill jig sharpens them to the four facet configuration. This is good for many drilling operations but not all and I found I could not use it successfully on drills below about 6mm /1/4".

BTW- I would be very proud if my jig was built to the same standard as yours - good luck with it.

John


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## 1hand

Looks great. Adj knobs are perfect. 

Nice job
Matt


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## xo18thfa

Thanks men. The correct dovetail cutter arrived and so I am on the sliding parts.

John: I figured it would be difficult to sharpen the smaller size drill bits. I want to save the expensive larger ones if I can.


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## xo18thfa

Got all the parts made for the Hall Grinding Table. The sliding table portion is assembled and works great. It was the first time I ever milled dovetails. 











I tried to assemble everything and immediately realized those fancy handles are not going to work. They bump into everything and require too much fiddle to make work. I am going to replace them with regular hex bolts and nuts.


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## JimM

That's all looking great - fantastic finish to the parts

When cutting the dovetails what sort of depth of cut did you take on each pass and what speed did you run the cutter at

Cheers


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## John Rudd

Looking good.....

I bought the material to make one of these, but its on the roundtuit list........


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## xo18thfa

John: I know what you mean. This was on the "roundtuit" list a long time.

Jim: I set the cutter to full depth and fed about 0.040" on each pass. Slowest speed on my mill. It chattered a little, but OK. My mill is not very stout. The cutter I got is a poor quality. It seems to be eccentric. All-in-all, it worked, give the dovetails a C+ or B- for a school grade.


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## tel

> I tried to assemble everything and immediately realized those fancy handles are not going to work. They bump into everything and require too much fiddle to make work. I am going to replace them with regular hex bolts and nuts.



That's something I've always wondered about with the Quorn - they fairly bristle with those handles, which, one would think, would have to get in the way.

It's really looking good tho' - I am almost inspired to start one while I wait for the electronic bits for the EDM.


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## xo18thfa

The grinding table itself is done. It's ready to install. The wife gave the "green light" to a new grinder. I found a piece of granite counter top, an oval shape cut out for a sink. Might use it a base for the able and grinder (Thanks for the idea Bob)






I took the handles off and replaced with hex nuts/bolts. The last part in Mr Hall's plan is a "cheater bar" to tighten the handles. May as well just use a wrench then.


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## xo18thfa

Finally got the Harold Hall grinding table installed and running. It's nice, I like it. The wheel is all trued up with a diamond point dresser. It runs smooth as a baby's butt. Got all new HSS lathe tools and we are cutting serious steel now.











Also made the drill bit grinding attachment. It works very nice. It cuts a razor sharp 4 facet edge. I have a bloody finger to prove it.






I am glad I did this project. It's a great addition to the shop.

Next up, a Harold Hall dividing head.


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## Maryak

You have made a great T&C grinder there :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer

Yes you have made a great T&C !  and I too am interested in the dividing head....looking forward to it.

Dave


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## John Rudd

Nice job! Makes me wanna continue making mine 




Dont wanna rain on your parade, but shouldnt you have a guard over that stone? ???


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## xo18thfa

Thanks guys. I like this table a lot. It did a great job on the practice drill bit. It will do a good job on end mills too, especially 2 flute. That will be a future attachment.

The wheel guard that came with the grinder interfered with the table too much, so it got left off. I will either modify it or make a new one. But yes, it needs a guard.

Looking forward to building Mr Hall's dividing head. It is the basic design using lathe change gears. It will make all the divisions I will ever need.

While building this table, my machining buddies gave me a ration of "bollocks" because Hall is Brit.  I don't care. It's a good design. All his stuff is. Australian stuff is good too. If the "damn Yanks" come up with anything good, I'll build that too.

Thanks again.


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## Gedeon Spilett

Hi
great job with this T&C grinder.
I'm gathering stuff to make one.
How come the slots of the table are square ended, it is not that useful but look super!
Zephyrin


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## John Rudd

xo18thfa  said:
			
		

> The wheel guard that came with the grinder interfered with the table too much, so it got left off. I will either modify it or make a new one. But yes, it needs a guard.
> 
> Looking forward to building Mr Hall's dividing head. It is the basic design using lathe change gears. It will make all the divisions I will ever need.



Good to hear about the guard......I know too well what can happen omitting a safety guard on a power tool, I still have the scars...

As for the dividing head, that was one of the first major projects I undertook with my mill and lathe....I'm pleased with the outcome, although it did take me three attempts at making the main block...I'd suggest you read and re-read the text before you embark...Let me know if I can help if you have any questions about it (not that I'm an expert...)


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## bentprop

Don't want to be picky,Bob,but isn't grinding on the side of the wheel a big no-no?
I know,I've done it myself,but it always makes me feel a bit uneasy.
I have one of the "potts" style copy jigs for grinding drill bits.but it's got so much play in various joints,it's worse than useless.
You did a nice job on it,and I'm very impressed by your glowing report 
I have that book in my library,so I'll have to start gathering material,methinks.


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## John Rudd

bentprop  said:
			
		

> Don't want to be picky,Bob,but isn't grinding on the side of the wheel a big no-no?



Bp, 
I didnt pick up on that! but I ought to have...I'm one of the guilty ones too...

It is usual to use a cup stone I think, for this type of application, or at least a stone for the job...


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## tel

> Looking forward to building Mr Hall's dividing head. It is the basic design using lathe change gears. It will make all the divisions I will ever need.



You will find it well worth the effort - I use mine quite a lot and it does an excellent job.

I, too have made a start on the grinding rest - the basic rest is just about done and I've started on the accessories, looks to have a lot of promise, if I can just find a bit of space in this rat's nest to set it up.


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## xo18thfa

Gedeon Spilett  said:
			
		

> Hi
> great job with this T&C grinder.
> I'm gathering stuff to make one.
> How come the slots of the table are square ended, it is not that useful but look super!
> Zephyrin



Zephyrin: There is a fence attachment that drops in the slots on the table. The fence is in use with the drill jig. The fence has a key along the bottom that fits in the slot. So, it was either square the corners of the table or round over the key ends.

Bob


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## xo18thfa

Cutting on the side of the wheel -- I don't know if that's legal or not. Mr Hall does it a lot in his book on grinding. I have a cup wheel too. Just have not tried it yet.


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## Omnimill

Nice build Bob, how does the Drill sharpening jig work?

Vic.


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## xo18thfa

Hi Vic. The drill bit jig works great. I sharpened that old 1/2" drill as a test and it rips thru everything now. Identical chips coming off both edges of the bit. Could not ask for anything better. Highly recommended.

Thanks, Bob


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## Nickle

bentprop  said:
			
		

> Don't want to be picky,Bob,but isn't grinding on the side of the wheel a big no-no?
> I know,I've done it myself,but it always makes me feel a bit uneasy.
> I have one of the "potts" style copy jigs for grinding drill bits.but it's got so much play in various joints,it's worse than useless.
> You did a nice job on it,and I'm very impressed by your glowing report
> I have that book in my library,so I'll have to start gathering material,methinks.



I have a copy of the book (not on hand at the moment) and looked for the answer to this little issue in detail after reading some posts on this and other forums about the dangers of grinding on the side of the wheel. There is a small section in the text recommending that the grinding table or rest (I cant recall which) be set at a slight angle to the wheel so that the tools being sharpened are effectively only contacting the outside corner of the wheel as they slide along. This means that the surfaces made by the wheel will be ever so slightly concave but this was not regarded as an issue.

Edit..... The text describing this is page 102 in milling a complete course and page 31 of tool and cutter sharpening.

Great job on the build... I should get my act together and build one.


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## Omnimill

xo18thfa  said:
			
		

> Hi Vic. The drill bit jig works great. I sharpened that old 1/2" drill as a test and it rips thru everything now. Identical chips coming off both edges of the bit. Could not ask for anything better. Highly recommended.
> 
> Thanks, Bob



Sounds good Bob. Is the bit just slid back and forth across the wheel or is there some rotational action when sharpening?

Vic.


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## xo18thfa

Nickle. The first time I use the table it was digging into the wheel the closer to center. The table has a pivot that locks with a set screw. After a small turn of the table, it was cutting more on the edge and worked much better. 

Vic: Yes. The attachments simply slide on the table, up against the fence. The adjustment knobs are very accurate. Feed about 0.001" for each pass against the grinding wheel. Have a soft brush handy to clean off the table and attachment every few passes.


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## Omnimill

Lots of good updated info and modifications on this rest in the current (No 176) issue of MEW.

Vic.


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## xo18thfa

The grinding table project is done. Changed out the regular grinding wheel with a cone type wheel. Put the wheel guard back on and modified it to fit the cone wheel. Drilled and tapped more holes for the base bracket since the cone is much smaller then the regular wheel.

Here's the set up.







The drill bit attachment works great. Did this 9/32" bit in about 10 minutes






This is a must have in the metal shop. There is no excuse for dull lathe tools and drill bits now. The next attachment will be the endmill sharpener. I think this table is well capable of sharpening endmills. Also want to make an attachment to hollow grind wood chisels.


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## tel

Nice Bob - my basic rest is done, working on the accessories now. I'm going to set the end-mill attachment up to use MT2 collets rather than the Harold design ones.


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## steamer

Looks Awesome from here Bob...I'll be watching along for the end mill sharpening rig..I've been dithering for years on how to sharpen them...... :

Dave


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## xo18thfa

tel  said:
			
		

> Nice Bob - my basic rest is done, working on the accessories now. I'm going to set the end-mill attachment up to use MT2 collets rather than the Harold design ones.



Hi Tel and Dave: That is exactly what I plan to do too. I ordered a set of MT2 collets for the dividing head. Great minds think alike. If the drill bit attachment is any indication, sharpening endmills should be "do-able"


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## reFlad

Very Nice Bob. Thanks for re-posting the pictures. The one I am attempting to build is Harold Hall's Simple Table, as shown in his book about sharpening. 

Thanks for taking the time and documenting this tool. 

Tel,
Do you have any pictures of your build or finished table and accessories? I sure would like to see your take on his design. 


Ronald


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## tel

I haven't, no, but I can probably get a few happy snaps later today.


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## Hilmar

For those of you who don't know! In MEW # 176
Harold Hall made a change on the grinding rest.
He changed the size of the two arms that connect the lower with the upper part from 8 mm to 3 mm thickness.
If you have the thicker ones done thinning them to 3 mm.
It makes for better fasten the end more securely.
Hilmar


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## petertha

xo18thfa  said:
			
		

> The grinding table project is done. Changed out the regular grinding wheel with a cone type wheel.



Nice.Thats exactly what I want to do. Was there much fuss in the way of integrating the cup type wheel itself? Is it a matter of matching the shaft OD to ?standardized? cup ID. Did you have to make up some special retention nut or the stock one from disk type wheel works?


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## xo18thfa

petertha  said:
			
		

> Nice.Thats exactly what I want to do. Was there much fuss in the way of integrating the cup type wheel itself? Is it a matter of matching the shaft OD to ?standardized? cup ID. Did you have to make up some special retention nut or the stock one from disk type wheel works?




Sorry so late getting back. Most of these grinding cups have a 1-1/4" ID bore. The Grinder is 1/2" shaft. I turned an adapter and washer to fit the cup to the shaft. Mount the cup to the shaft and use a diamond point dressing point to balance the cup. Once the cup is balanced, it does not come off (unless you want to rebalance it)

The only attachments I have are the lathe bit grinding rest and the drill bit attachment (last photo above) The drill bit attachment is a must have. It will grind up to a 5/8" drill dead perfect.  The attachments are exactly to Hall's design, just converted to use inch material.


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## Maryak

Hi Guys,

In Oz most grinding wheels, irrespective of profile, are supplied with a series of plastic inserts which allow for fitting the majority of grinder arbors.

If they just offer up a wheel ask them where are the inserts. ;D

The most important, or dare I say vital, thing is to ensure the clamping washers front and back bridge the wheel hole and that there is a paper insert between them and the wheel if they are not already glued to the inner and outer wheel faces. This reduces the tendency for the wheel to shatter.

Best Regards
Bob


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## bezalel2000

Nice job XO  :bow:

Inspiring, I'm Gunner have to finish my grinding table one day - I just don't know which day   :big: 

So many gunnadoos so few days to do em.



			
				tel  said:
			
		

> I haven't, no, but I can probably get a few happy snaps later today.


scratch.gif   ummmm!  what happened tel?  stickpoke

Do you have a link to your happy snaps?


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## workshopman

It is encouraging to see that my Grinding Rests are being found useful by some, and others are now considering making one. Thanks!

I note also that Hilmar refers to one of my MEW articles relating to the advanced rest.

Viewers of this forum may not be fully aware that almost all of my MEW articles are now to be found on my website,
www.homews.co.uk

Of particular interest to this thread are the following pages 

Using either rests. More detailed than my magazine article or found in my books.
www.homews.co.uk/page224.html

Advanced grinding rest. 
www.homews.co.uk/page145.html

Three simple modifications to the advanced rest.
www.homews.co.uk/page156.html

A method of mounting either rest that gives total flexibility as to where it is placed relative to the off hand grinder making them easier to use.
 www.homews.co.uk/page59.html

Converting a standard Off Hand Grinder to take Cup and Saucer wheels.
www.homews.co.uk/page225.html

Shaping and sharpening boring tools.
www.homews.co.uk/page237.html

Sharpening drills, including the four facet method 
www.homews.co.uk/page354.html

Simple grinding rest.
www.homews.co.uk/page146.html

I intend in the coming months to include a book style alphbetical index which will index both complete articles, plus interesting details within them, with the entries linked to the pages on which they feature. This will make it easier to locate such pages as those above. Will keep you posted.

Side Grinding
I notice that the subject of using the side of the wheel has also been raised. The statement that the side of the wheel should not be used is often very much over stated as it is perfectly acceptable providing that the wheel has not been overly thinned by dressing its side, or the task being undertaken is not placing a considerable force on the side of the wheel.

A handbook published by Norton Abrasives states

Grinding on the flat sides of straight wheels is often hazardous and should not be allowed on such operations when the sides of the wheel are appreciably worn, or when any considerable or sudden pressure is brought to bear against the sides.

A much later handbook published by the Universal Grinding Wheel Company has much the same view of the subject.

In the case of using a tool and cutter grinder though, practically all tasks should be done on the corner of the wheel. This avoids total contact with the wheel which may cause overheating of the item being sharpened.

Harold Hall


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## arnoldb

Welcome to HMEM Harold.

There are many members here who enjoy and appreciate your contribution to home engineering.

Kind regards, Arnold


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## vcutajar

Welcome Harold

Always enjoyed your articles and books.

Vince


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## Maryak

Harold,

Welcome to our forum. wEc1

May I add my thanks for your contributions to our hobby. Your articles and books are some of the more, "well thumbed" items in my library. I have built several of your offerings; most notably the grinding rest and its' accessories. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## ozzie46

Welcome Harold. I have some of yoyr books and have read acouple so far. Looking forward to reading the rest as soon as I can.

The "Dividing Head" one really interest me.



  Ron


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## tel

Welcome aboard Harold!


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## steamer

A welcome for the other side of the pond Harold!

great fan of your work in ME and HMW

Dave


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## bazzz

Welcome Harold,

I ordered three of your books last week. Looking forward to building my own grinding table using your plans.

Dave


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## xo18thfa

Harold: I use the grinding table for sharpening drill bits and HSS lathe bits. It does a super job. Everything comes out razor sharp. 5/8" diameter drill is the biggest going by your plan. The table is a huge improvement to my shop.

I also did your basic dividing head. It's opened up a whole new set of possibilities. Did some spur gears with it and they came out right on.  Other jobs too. Next will be some bevel gears for Gauge 1 live steam locos

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=14501.0

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=17322.0

I sincerely thank you for adding so much to our hobby

vr Bob Sorenson


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## moconnor

Hello Mr. Hall,

I am also a big fan of your work and miss the days when you were the editor of MEW. By the way, you did an amazing job while you were the editor there. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to have to design, build and document all of those projects that you did to fill the magazine under a deadline. I also thought that your 'second workshop' under the alias of 'John Steele' was clever, but I knew it was you from early on.

Thanks for all that you have done and continue to do for the model engineering hobby. Your efforts are wholeheartedly appreciated by many and as you can see a very many here on this excellent forum. Welcome aboard.

Kind regards,
Mike


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## workshopman

Thank you very much for the extent of your welcome, quite unexpected.

I cannot promise to be very involved with the forum but will visit at least once a week to see if I can learn something, its never too late, and to contribute if I feel I have anything worthwhile to say.

Harold


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## bobm985

Welcome!

Thank you very much for your contributions to the machining community! :bow:

Bob


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## Lockstocknbarrel

Mr Hall,
Thank you for your time and effort, in sharing a life time spent in the home workshop. It is people like you that keep home engineering alive in a world that is now so electronic.
You and GHT both deserve a gong from Liz just for the time and dedication alone.
I have just purchased the Book #38 and will also buy #35. The tool grinder is a must in the workshop.
Please do keep up the additions to your website I have just spent several hours looking and more tooling for my shop.
Kindest Regards
Beagles


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## M130

Hi all of you!
I have just made one of mr Hall's grinding rests. Althought it needs a bit of shining, I'm  posting a couple of pictures. Yesterday I used it to sharpen a couple of endmills and a slotdrill for the first time. After taken a test cut with them, I'm p pleased with the result.
Kind regards
Morten


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## Steen Kruse

I know it is an old thread. But I would like to make one of these.
If I buy the book is the plans in there.


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## goldstar31

Yes but the drawings seem to part of the 'words and music' rather than a sheets of working drawings.
Again, mine are drawn in Imperial sizes which could be a problem for mainland Europeans. 

Now the more versatile Quorn has been made easier with the introduction of the Mark3 from Heningwayskits.
The kit IS expensive, however.

Maybe, the Tinker which originated from England but the drawings now come from Guy Lautard in Canada may whet your appetite . I've just had a look and the newer drawings and the 3 castings can be easily fabricated or welded. Again, it is worth a look at.

Another T&C is the Stent which is a nice machine. I have a fabricated version and in issues 16 and 17 of Model Engineers Workshop there is a version by a Derek Brookes which can easily be made.  It is described by GadgetBuilder.com and is worth a look at.

I hope that the foregoing  comments might be of use.

Norman


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## Steen Kruse

Thanks Norman.
I am new here. So where do I find the Drawings.
maybe I need to get an abo for the Magazine.

Steen


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## goldstar31

I'm assuming that you mean the one for the 'Brookes. 
You MAY be able to get someone here who will copy them for you  or alternatively, direct from  the owners of  Model Engineer's Workshop of again the two magazines from  E-Bay.

There is a UK site called HomeWorkshop UK where you could place a free  advert . 
Sadly, I ran into copyright problems  some time back or I could possibly have helped.
Having written this, perhaps someone here could oblige

So I wish you luck


Norman


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## goldstar31

Forgive me but  I've just had news of the sad death of a very old friend.
So whilst my memory is fresh, you might consider the Stent of which plans and castings can be obtained through Blackgates Engineering in the UK.
I built one years ago and  bought a fabricated by welding another. It's a copy of the Clarkson T&C but in my opinion rather better. I do have an old Clarkson as well.
The Stent uses a Myford type rack and pinion but uses a Quorn type tool holder. My thoughts are that apart from the base, the other parts could be made from rectangular steel bits. The spindle is driven by a 2880 rpm 1/6th HP motor follows the various designs  as does the Quorn and the Kennet.

I'm now guessing but the Stent 'improvements' were also written up in Model Engineer's Workshop magazine .
The only source about this for me is an even older 92 year old model engineer and he, too, is far from well.

Why not try a note to others here?

Regards

Norman


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## kwoodhands

Steen Kruse said:


> I know it is an old thread. But I would like to make one of these.
> If I buy the book is the plans in there.


The plans are in two different books. The first one gives you plans for a simpler one than the second book. I believe the title is " Milling by Harold Hall." The other is 'Tool and Milling Cutter Sharpening". I have both books, latter shows how to make many accessories for the grinder rest.
Do a search for these books, I'm sure you will find an online book store. If I recall I paid $9.50 each, American .
Try Amazon as I think I bought them there.
Personally I like all the accessories but the grinder rest itself I modified. Instead of the complicated rest that tilts and bevels I opted for a simpler version after making the more complicated version of the rests.
I made a table that holds the accessories the same as Harold's but does not tilt to one side, only tilts forward or backward . I use the time old version of an arc on each side with locking knobs. I move the table in by a 10/32 screw with a knob on the end. This arrangement only pushes the table forward in small increments. I back up the knob and pull the table back when needed. The base is dadoed on each side to keep it in line. Another locking knob tightens the base to the bench. Probably dovetail slots would be better , but the dado does work well.
So far with Harold Halls accessories I have successfully sharpened many machine drills but not with the 4 facet design , just 2 facets. Also sharpened a 1/2" spotting drill that laid in a drawer for a year because it was dull. 
Whether you use Harold Hall's design or not , both books are interesting reading.
mike


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## goldstar31

Apologies for some incorrect information. I skated over the Tool Grinding Book because I have the Quorn, the Kennet, the Stent, the Clarkson Mk1 and the Chinese copy of the Deckel/Alexander.
Again, I have Mr Halls writings in Model Engineers Workshop  whilst he was editor.
Maybe I've seen something there in addition. I have quite a library of grinders- and paperwork

Norman

As Mr Hall is  or was a member here perhaps he  could clarify.


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## fcheslop

The drawings are in Mr Halls book Milling a complete course
He also has a good write up and a few mods to the original design on his web site
http://www.homews.co.uk/page398.html
Iv recently been having a serious look at this design as Im knee deep in dull cutters and need to sharpen at least a few up
Also on Mr Hall site is a simpler jig capable of touching cutters up
Iv made a few of his tools and all have been worth the effort sort of one of those why didnt I make one earlier moments
cheers
frazer


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## Motorman1946

I have the book but I also find the website www.homews.co.uk invaluable.  As Frazer says, the Grinding Rest Table write up on the website is excellent (and free!) and includes drawings last time I looked, plus there are all sorts of other interesting items there too.  Well worth the look
Chris


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## doc1955

Here is my set up for sharpening end mills but you'll have to watch a video to see it sorry.


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## awake

Thanks for that video, Doc. Do you have any videos or write-ups on the overall design, especially the air bearing? Looks like it works great!


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