# Let's talk cutter grinders



## timo_gross (Jun 2, 2021)

Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.  

A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint ) 



A running machine like this is in the same price range as the Quorn kit. ( it comes with the work done, and without the fun of making it. And I think the quorn looks nicer on the shelf  )
Question: are these two comparable? If I understand it correct the green thing is a copy of older German Deckel machines, that are if useable more expensive 2nd hand.

Now I stumbled into this. 



 It is about two thousand British Money. 3.2 x as expensive as a quorn unfinished kit. I guess shipping for the Kit will be in the same range as shippig the white Japanese colleague.
It says it is a "nihon seimitsu Co.Ltd" EG-100. I was not able to find any internet information. 

Now I wonder if anyone has a comment. I do not have any more pictures, information or whatsoever. I am going to visit the machine on Saturday. Any suggestions what to look for are welcome. 

Greetings Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 2, 2021)

Timo

Yes and how long is a piece of string?
IMHO it all depends on what on what you want to grind. It is possible to get a tool to  sharpen lathes tools and the ends of milling cutters and work from the excellent plans from Eccentric Engineering or buy a set of plans for thr Tinker for about???? 80 Canadian dollars or - literally the sky being the limit.
You can buy a Chinese Deckel clone and -limited.
Recently, I pointed a person here to the plans for the Bonelle and the Mini Bonelle. 
Strangely, I'm or was going through the Mark3 Quorn plans to see what was "New PussyCat' compared to my old Mark1.
The other factor is how eay or how difficult is a tool to set up?
Arnold Throp of Dore Engineering and associated  with Hemingwaykits - improved the Westbury Milling Machine and built a Mark1 Quorn but was using the predecessor of the Hemingwaykits Worden  and called the Kennet.  He found that the old Kennet was great for 'touching up' the lathe tool whilst was in use. Clears throat-- I have a Kennet!
So I have mentioned a fraction of what is or has been in my little home workdhop but I have only the vaguest clue regarding your requirements and- err you much disposable income  you are prepared to spend.

Regards 

Norman


and I have on extended loan a Black and Decker professional drill grinder


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## SmithDoor (Jun 2, 2021)

If using end mills after you sharpen the cutter it now under size. 

I just buy new end mill.
If using a mill/gear cutter i will sharpen but I do this on a lathe

Dave 



timo_gross said:


> Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.
> 
> A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint )
> 
> ...


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## goldstar31 (Jun 2, 2021)

i've bought a Mk3 Quorm kit to go weeoth my Mk1


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## timo_gross (Jun 2, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Timo
> 
> Yes and how long is a piece of string?



Hello Norman, 

yes more a general invitation to share thoughts. And the hope to catch some comment about the mentioned items in general.
I am curious if anyone has an idea if 2000 dollars for a grinder seems reasonable, or overpriced. 
I was asked if I was interested yesterday and thought I might find some comment.

Is the Bonelle similar to the Quorn? It looks nice anyway.
I was hoping someone can give some hints about what a Deckel clone can not do, that a Quorn grinder can do.
Maybe someone here owns both and has certain jobs that are better with one or the other?

I did start grinding some lathe tools. Trying to grind brazed carbide cutters. I gabe this up for now.  With the bench grinder is useles exercise. (my opinion). For the flat grinding machine a diamond wheel is neccesary.  
Some examples what I have in mind, but it does not have to be achieved at any particular order or neccesarily at all.

Touching up or making lathe tools. I partially did this with weird potentially dangerous set ups on the flat grinding machine. It takes time to set up, I was thinking of making some fixturing for it at some point.
drill grinding, e.g. the ones that make clearance hole and counter sink the at same time. A third step for the tap hole size would be excellent.
grinding small drills, something between 1-3 mm
Maybe grinding some D-bits for engraving
Fixing Endmills that are mostly O.K. but have the tip damaged or a corner chipped.
Modification of Endmills
Sharpening interesting 2nd hand tools e.g. HSS dove tail cutters, Carbide Endmills
If someone has a general advise what I should look at when visiting the machine that would be nice. 

Greetings Timo


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## geo (Jun 2, 2021)

I have the dekel clone d bit grinder only problem I have is in the first set up step for any job put the white dot in the white dot window there is no white dot there is no window. Both Robin Renzetti and Stephan Gotteswinter have good vids on the deckel clone. The adapter to grind lathe tools is ordinary good for 25mm stock I have made up adapters to suit the adapter for drill sharpening is cumbersome but it works


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## geo (Jun 2, 2021)

I paid about $1200 au has a diamond wheel as standard imperial and metric collets but no .125 or 3 mm collet I purchased mine to do small bits instead of forking out$40 plus for end mills so a 3 mm collet would be handy


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## goldstar31 (Jun 2, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello Norman,
> 
> yes more a general invitation to share thoughts. And the hope to catch some comment about the mentioned items in general.
> I am curious if anyone has an idea if 2000 dollars for a grinder seems reasonable, or overpriced.
> ...



I must and so must replies  make sweeping statemts

Tool grindomg is NOT a one page or video aqlthough it may clarify ONE aspect.
The choice alomfor suitable grinding wheels occupies many pages.  Again sometimes it may be recommended to change wheels to 'rough out' and thrn do a basic angle and then 'fine hone' before puyyimg a tool to use. Developing this theme people may work their way through a selection of diamond pastes-after adopting the procedure mentioned erlier.
Moving to drill grinding, there are numerous methods and some machines  will not cope at all but many can do 4 or 6 facet grinds uwing a priciple perhaps akin to  grimd yhr blunt ends of milling cutters.
Again, lots of grinders will only grind a straight facet and leave the operator to 'roun d off the cornerrs by hand or indilge into 'steps adopted by ballet damcers!'

So my worn out eyes are tired and I'm mzking mistakes in ty[ing. So despite the admitted cheapness of the Bonelle- similar to the early Quorns, I guess that your present experience would be better served  with an Acute system set of plans and  the firm's excellent vidoes. Remember that a Quorn  is  a tool which a large collection of toolimg must be addedrequies time and arguably a great deal of knoeledge must be added.
norman


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## coulsea (Jun 2, 2021)

geo said:


> I paid about $1200 au has a diamond wheel as standard imperial and metric collets but no .125 or 3 mm collet I purchased mine to do small bits instead of forking out$40 plus for end mills so a 3 mm collet would be handy


I have an ER11 collet holder with a straight 16mm shank. it is handy for holding small stuff in the lathe 3 jaw chuck and i also use it in the dekel clone. i have collets up to 10 mm for the ER11 and 10 up in ER32. the ER11 can also go in the ER32 square and hex blocks. cheap ebay from china, most have a long shank but you can cut a bit off.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 3, 2021)

hi Couldea

I note that you have a 'Deckel clome'
As I am  disappointed in mine-namd others i the past have similar expriences, please tell me what the Chinese affair can do.

The decke WAS designed to sharpen engraving tools but can be pushed to sharpen lathe tools and the ends of milling cutters. Can it actually MAKE mullung cuters which was really the intention of the Quorn and  go up to say 1400 rpm and regrind dies and  sharpen taps----and possibly be pressed into service to grin-- on the milling machine?

There was a Kiwi. who hsad a Quorn which would do all these things

Thank you

Norman


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## pat_pending (Jun 3, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> i've bought a Mk3 Quorm kit to go weeoth my Mk1


Hey Norman. I have just done the same. Might be good to share construction notes when we're underway building them. Im still 'clearing the bench ' on my Nalon Vioper project but then I'll turn my attention to the Quorn.

Patrick


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## goldstar31 (Jun 3, 2021)

pat_pending said:


> Hey Norman. I have just done the same. Might be good to share construction notes when we're underway building them. Im still 'clearing the bench ' on my Nalon Vioper project but then I'll turn my attention to the Quorn.
> 
> Patrick



Best wishes on your construction. 

As far as I can see, the Mark1 and the Mark3  possess many parts which are interchangeable. Once I 'cler the decks for action', I think think that both bsses are identical and I'm  going( mI hope) use the new tool holder on the old machine-- until - well something happens.
So might I mention that I still have the 'inline boring bar to do the precise parallel 1.000" holes for thr bed bars.  Mine came out of the Geo Thomas  Model Engineer's Workshop Manual.   I certainly commend the book to would be constructors

'Somewhere' in my glory hole, I have the drawings of an automatic gadget which will do the three different lengths of strokes used for the two azimuth rings in the tool holder.
FYI my e-mail is tramuntana(at)btinternet.com.
Incidentally, there is a new Quorn Owners web site.  It's a closed site but very helpful to genuine owners

Regards


Norman Atkinson


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## timo_gross (Jun 3, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Tool grindomg is NOT a one page or video aqlthough it may clarify ONE aspect.
> The choice alomfor suitable grinding wheels occupies many pages.  Again sometimes it may be recommended to change wheels to 'rough out' and thrn do a basic angle and then 'fine hone' before puyyimg a tool to use. Developing this theme people may work their way through a selection of diamond pastes-after adopting the procedure mentioned erlier.



Hello Norman,

yes I am aware (fearing) that this grinding; it is a rabbit hole.  Underground or coal mine possible the better analogy. I am not expecting or relying on any fast or perfect results in short time. I can flatten the steep learning curve by adding some patience and time.
"Bad workers blame the tools, skipping that excuse still often makes things easier." If I fail, I will just pretend that I never tried.... 
As always tooling suddenly becomes a mayor factor (expense), buying a machine and then got hit by the accessories that need to be provided.
I will keep this in mind, is always worthwhile to get reminded on this. A commercial machine certainly will not automatically progamm any know how into its owner, it never does.
Industry is trying. The perfect example: Your worn out eyes are getting tired. Then the nasty auto correction, and typing aid, of your computer are messing with your perfectly fine text. The next day you think you made the mistake...  

Greetings Timo


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## David Shealey (Jun 3, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Similar problem like in the recent milling machine thread? Only difference I am upgrading from nothing to maybe giving it a thought.
> 
> A grinding machine for sharpening tools. I was considering this Hemingway Kits Quorn Mk3 - Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder a fun project for sure, but not very cheap. (it is what it is, not intended as complaint )
> 
> ...


I have never seen that machine! If I found it for that price, it would be in my garage! Sure would like to know mor about it, looks like a great machine.


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## Richard Carlstedt (Jun 3, 2021)

I think we are missing a word here. The Deckel is a very fine tool and cutter grinder. ( and as mentioned was primarily for Deckel milling machines  and single point cutters- but it does others )
The Ops photo  and the Quorn , are "universal" cutter grinders. The range of a universal cutter grinder in making various tooling is very broad and includes all types of special cutters, not within the Deckel scope.  Deckel collets for example are narrow in range compared to 5 C or other collet types, so tool holding becomes a requirement that needs to be reviewed
So in deciding which to choose, one must look at the work in hand---or planned.
Rich


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## doc1955 (Jun 3, 2021)

Here is a link to a play list of my sharpening set up I built. The set up works great and have sharpened quite a few end mills with it.



			https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp95TDxCzDrUuniYh1oQgkzARzlEhp4LY


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## Gordon (Jun 3, 2021)

A while back I tried to make a cutter grinder using ideas from several commercial and home made grinders. I ended up with a somewhat usable machine. The problem was that I wanted to use it primarily for sharpening the ends of end mills. Most of the end mills I use are center cutting and getting the wheel to grind exactly to center is a problem. I am not sure if the problem is the somewhat less than perfect tolerance on my home made machine or just my misunderstanding of how to do that.


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## awake (Jun 3, 2021)

Timo, I have zero experience, so take this for what it is worth ... but any time someone has bought a used grinder, the thing I always hear discussed at length is whether or not it came with all of the collets, accessories, attachments, or other doo-dads that turn it from an expensive door stop into a useful machine.


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## BaronJ (Jun 3, 2021)

awake said:


> Timo, I have zero experience, so take this for what it is worth ... but any time someone has bought a used grinder, the thing I always hear discussed at length is whether or not it came with all of the collets, accessories, attachments, or other doo-dads that turn it from an expensive door stop into a useful machine.



Hi Guys,

I have looked at a number of TCG's for sale !  The thing that seems to be in common with them is that in the main they have been used to only perform few or only one or two tasks and most of the accessories supplied with them from new and not utilised seem to have got lost, meaning that they are very rarely complete.

I've spent a fair amount of time making a very much modified "Brooks" TCG and only recently have got to the stage where I can actually use it to sharpen anything.  However whilst it has not cost me very much money, the education and experience building it has been invaluable.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 3, 2021)

BaronJ and I share  very similar ideas about tool and cutters.  John is referring bto the  homee make Brooks grinder which appeared 9jnModel Engineers Workshop  issues  16 and 17 and is  a sort of dimimotiveversion of the famous Clarkson and sort of shrunk to fit the model engineers workshop and then derek Brooks simplofied and chespened it to be made from a few slabs of mild steel, a sheet of felt to  reduce much of the grit and it was propelled alomg with a bit of wire vand the mototive power was-man old router with a 1/4' grindstone bit and Brooks copied the excellent Quorn  tool holder.
As John will afirm , Brooks did things  like needle valves as he made model aero engines
So it was open to one's own taste and John added the Chaddock idea of a cartridge spimndle which withn the old axial bearings would run up to a staggering 14000 rpm with a   full head of steam, a following winmd-qnd a little gift of a 1/6th 2880b rpom motopr kindly donated to a good friend.
And John has, like the rest of us, added our own 'niceties' tailored to our own unique 'tastes'
The cost therefore is neglible and out to replace a washing machine motor on my own Olld Quorm, I came back home traing not only a similar motor but a fabricated Stent which is a sort of \in between!
The total cost, cause it came with other goodies, was a mere £100.Mine came with collets which were merely slices of 1" round MS and drilled yo accept standard milling cutters and held with grub screws and indexed, divided and graduated with -- a sharp chisel. As you see- Hi Tech stuff and steel rubbing on steel--------AND IT WORKS!  
Adding a top table and a pair of ends and - tapers, reamers, taps and whatever imagination  suggests and- that- as Mr Punch says 'that's the way to do it'
So what other Baron J can add is yet to be disclosed. I look forwaard to that

Cheers

Norman


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## BaronJ (Jun 3, 2021)

Hi Norman, Guys,

Since this site won't let me edit my own posts and because I won't let Google, Paypal, Youtube and others place stuff I don't want on my computer I'll add my note here ! 

I wish to add my sincere thanks to all those people that have so generously assisted me in so many ways with help, materials  and good advice.
Many Thanks:


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## goldstar31 (Jun 3, 2021)

Keep posting johnn.   We need a breath of fresh air which you provide

Best Wishes from the even older Grumpy Old Git


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## coulsea (Jun 3, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> hi Couldea
> 
> I note that you have a 'Deckel clome'
> As I am  disappointed in mine-namd others i the past have similar expriences, please tell me what the Chinese affair can do.
> ...


I bought the dekel clone to sharpen end mills and it will do that, the best use i have found is finishing off valves.
I think that we all know someone who can sharpen things and some who can't, there is an art to using most machines.
I have a Drill Doctor machine for sharpening drill bits and it works really well if all the planets are aligned and there is a full moon.
Back in the day a large factory would have a man who sharpened the tools and he couldn't go on holiday because no one else was as good.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 4, 2021)

So Coulsea the Deckel as I supposed is NOT - or anway near being a Universal machine.  It obvioudly fills YOUR needs  but my Deckel clome certainly doesn't fill mine.

Thank you for your candid reply

Norman


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## BaronJ (Jun 4, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Keep posting johnn.   We need a breath of fresh air which you provide
> 
> Best Wishes from the even older Grumpy Old Git



Thanks Norman,

I've had a request for some pictures of my "Brooks" machine, so I will take some and post them later !


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## goldstar31 (Jun 4, 2021)

Morning John
I'm intrigued to see what and how much the very basiv 'Brooks' has become.

I was musing about the old Kennet and note that  Hemingwaykits has modified( eeek!) it to be a Worden  now in its 3rd resurrection (more eeks) and note that if someone wants to add, it has to be a additional plan and obvioudly more cost. 

A bit more 'musing' and I would mention that the Quorn was designed originally to be wholly constructed on an ancient - or pre Myford lathe.  As Kirk Burwell explains, the  Mk3 is simplified( Eh?) or aided or speeded up by the arrival of the milling machine- which Chaddock also 'improved' in  bits from the westbury, to the Dore(nArnold Throp) to him actually making 1/10th inch cutter for his much acclaimed V6.

Getting a bit long wided 

So I am doing a bit of plastering as Sir Winston Churchill was reputed to do

Time for my intraveinous injection of coffee. LOL


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## goldstar31 (Jun 4, 2021)

Whilst the coffee is removing some of last night's malt whisky, here is an idea.

In the  days  of yore, the late and much lamented John Stevenson crossed our rather blunt Dekel ground swords at each other! We claimed  that each of us had 'invented; or modified athe rudiments or basis of tool grinder.

In memorial to John MBE and all that, here it is.

Buy from Evil Bay a Three way vice for about £35 (  or a bottle vof average malt whisky)

So we hthen have--- a Brooks minus the tool holder of choice and an El Cheapo 6" double ended grinmder.  Remove the paing stones - or Chinrde abrasive wheels and replace with 'summat decent' and there is a good tool and cutter grinder- for 'a couple of bottles or blended whisky.
I'm serios and disgustingly sober!

Norman


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 4, 2021)

I guess that for general tool grinding you need the possibility to hold square/rectangular tools and rotational tools. To present the tool to the grinder you need the possibility for lineair movement in three directions and angular movement in at least two planes.
For my non-professional home use I got an old solid GOTHA (maybe pre-war) tool- and cutter grinder. I added a home-made sinus-table which can hold a square/rectangular toolholder or an indexer with ER25 colletholder. For the sinustable I made a quick nonius -setting to 0,1 degree. The sinustable and the indexer can be super-imposed. This works fine for  lathe tools and mills.
For drills from diameter 2 to 13 mm I use a Chinese copy of the VERTEX grinder. This little machine works so well and quick that I now much more often than before touch up my drills.
For the larger drills up to diameter 25 mm I use the drill grinding attachment to my TORMEK wet grinder. (The prohibitive cost of the TORMEK was ok'd by my wife because it also grinds all the kitchen knives to an unprecedented sharpness). Drill grinding on the TORMEK is OK but is much more cumbersome than on the copy-VERTEX grinder. So I do the touching-up of the larger drills for 4-5 times by hand and then again by machine.
Many of my machining friends use the Deckel grinder or a self-made copy. Mostly for drills and mills.
So if you have the space I would advise to purchase a used professional tool and cutter grinder. You get all the built-in mass and precision and overhauling is not a big issue as they tend to be quite straightforward of construction. Maybe you want to adapt the spindle to hold a wider variety of grinding wheels and if so you may want to get a bigger motor to drive it.


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## Preston Engebretson (Jun 4, 2021)

I ended up purchasing a Cincinatti #1 Tool and Cutter Grinder...the attachments allow
sharpening almost any cutter, reamer, drill, milling cutter, ect that one could think of
wanting to sharpen...

It is Fully Adjustable in all planes and axis's...very useful

The primary down side is the size and weight around 5000 pounds but when it is needed
it is Invaluable to have sitting at the ready to sharpen what one needs...

I made this decision as I live in Mexico and just ordering a new sharp cutting tool may take
some time to arrive...

Regards,

Preston


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## awake (Jun 4, 2021)

Preston Engebretson said:


> I ended up purchasing a Cincinatti #1 Tool and Cutter Grinder...the attachments allow
> sharpening almost any cutter, reamer, drill, milling cutter, ect that one could think of
> wanting to sharpen...
> 
> ...



Sounds like this will be a good table-top machine to use ...


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## Preston Engebretson (Jun 4, 2021)

awake said:


> Sounds like this will be a good table-top machine to use ...



The one advantage to the Cincinnati
 5000 pound machine, it that the surface finish is Great
as Nothing moves or vibrates on this Beast...


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## BaronJ (Jun 5, 2021)

Hi Guys,

Here are some pictures of my much modified "Books" TCG !





I put all the electrics into small plastic box mounted above the Parvalux motor.  Kindly donated by Norman (Goldstar).  The switches are power and direction. I used a standard IEC power socket so the the power cable could easily be removed.





I used a toothed timing belt to drive the spindle cartridge.  As shown with the small pulley on the spindle, I get just over 5500 rpm.  In order to allow the spindle pulley size to be changed I made a belt tensioner using a couple of ball races.





The white alox 120 grit grinding wheel is 100 mm by 12 mm and has a 6K rating with a 32 mm bore.  In the background you can see the ER25 collet and tilt mechanism.  The large brass screw securing the collet shaft in the mounting.





This is a better view of the tool holder.  There is a 7/16 slot drill held in the collet ready to have the end reground.  The holder is tilted down at 5 degrees.  The "Y" traverse leadscrew is a zero backlash one with an M6 thread calibrated in thous. 

My thanks go to those that have given their help and support with this project.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2021)

Morning John

I particularly like  the addition of being able to raise and lower the grinding head etc..  This us also part of the blackgates Stent configration ans adds the 3D function to aan already worhwhile design.

So----- NICE!


Norman


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

Hello,

I really like that it seems to be fun and become a nice discussion for everyone.

During the visit to the vendor of the Japanese machine, he happens to be only 2 km away from my place, I trapped my self into an impulse buy. I am not 100% sure if I did the right thing.


The spindle is mounted on a vertical column, the spindle can be moved up and down, and from left to right.
The workpiece holding head can be adjusted in some angles, but obviously not tilted up or down.


The head can be tilted so that the work holding spindle and the grinding spindle are parallel, or more than 90°.


For following the flutes, it has something similar to a lathe taper attachment.


The vertical column with the spindle can be rotated around the vertical axis a little in both directions.

A hand wheel is broken. I have to fix it.


The machine runs on Linar rails on most moving axis. But all the covers are damaged. The seller promised me they would not cost too much, he wants to hook me up with supplier of those.


Accessories:

I was advised here in some posts to look for accessories. And as I feared the machine comes with "one" as in "1" collet. I did not even care to check its size. I think the seller bought it to be able to demonstrate the machine, the collet nut was brand new and srewed on very smooth. It uses C10 collets which limits clamping range from 2.4 to 10 mm diameter. These Collets seem to be Japanese style milling chuck collets. I will have to source them somewhere. ( I was told it is easy, I was not told it is cheap). I think practically the working range of the collets covers 85% of what I use. Only advantage is that they have a much better runout spec than ER collets.

The machine uses tiny tapered grinding wheel hubs. It comes with a few of those hubs. Grinding wheels inside diameter is 31.75, seems to be a common size.

The motor is a 3-phase 200 W motor that looks like it can run all day long, without problem. ( just from the looks)



The machine was not cheap, but I managed to get 15% off the first asking price, plus free shipping. They will bring the 300 kg heavy beast with a truck with boom crane and unload it, so I do not have to do any difficult moving.

I saw the many home made solutions and at some point I will have another look into this I think it is a very interesting project to make one, even if it is only selfserving. 

Norman sugested the lathe tool grinding jig, a thing that this machine is not really capable of.



goldstar31 said:


> ......  with an Acute system set of plans and  the firm's excellent videos. ....
> norman


I think I will follow that route at some point making a lathe tool grinding aid.



Preston Engebretson said:


> I ended up purchasing a Cincinatti #1 Tool and Cutter Grinder... ...
> I made this decision as I live in Mexico and just ordering a new sharp cutting tool may take
> some time to arrive...



I must admit there is no such excuse available for me. I think I can buy all cutters somewhere, if not exotic size or spec within one workday.
If exotic size or spec, it is a matter of price quantity and waiting time.

The complete thing is nonsense in economical categories. Comparable to Aluminium wheels for the car. Something people (me) think they need to have, but is not neccesary. 

I will see what I will do with it. (Doorstop not an option, it is too heavy to move to the door)

Greetings Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

p.s. for the ambitious diy enthusiast they also had a shadow graph for sale. 
It was a little bigger than an arcade machine maybe 25-30 inch screen diameter.


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## Brian Hutchings (Jun 5, 2021)

The shadowgraph looks interesting, unfortunately there is about 3000 miles of sea between it and me!
Brian


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 5, 2021)

Mass, versatility, presumably precision and some not too serious repairs. I love it!  On covers: my antique grinder tried to rely on solid metal moving covers. From the local sailmaker I got a length of tight sailcover cloth. I cut rectangles from it and after set-up I attach those with some magnets. No expense, quick and effective.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2021)

A exchange beterrm Good Queen Bess and Sir Walter Raleigh

WR  'Fain would I climbe
Fear I to fall'
GQB 
If they heart fail thee
Climb not at all'

Finally, his head was chopped off
Whether the axe was shapened on a tool and cutter grinder is not recorded


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 5, 2021)

No hole in the bucket?


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

Brian Hutchings said:


> The shadowgraph looks interesting, unfortunately there is about 3000 miles of sea between it and me!
> Brian


It was so huge, you could park your model traction engine inside, or make a camping trailer out of it. 
 But they were asking few thousand USD for it.


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## ajoeiam (Jun 5, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello,
> 
> I really like that it seems to be fun and become a nice discussion for everyone.
> 
> ...



I would vehemently disagree with your assessment that this was a 'nonsense in economical categories' purchase. 
You very much like making things in your shop - - - - this tool should be a great assist in those endeavors!

(Would suggest that you repair the broken way bellows pdq to keep the tool working well for a very long time!!! - - - - 
Great buy!!!!!!!!!)


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Mass, versatility, presumably precision and some not too serious repairs. I love it!  On covers: my antique grinder tried to rely on solid metal moving covers. From the local sailmaker I got a length of tight sailcover cloth. I cut rectangles from it and after set-up I attach those with some magnets. No expense, quick and effective.


It is basically in working condition. Not a show piece, but ready to go, provided the right grinding wheels are there. Seller said he knows a professional company making this type covers, lets see what it costs. 

Greetings Timo


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## Brian Hutchings (Jun 5, 2021)

My T&C Grinder is a Union made by Harrisons. It has beem made into a single phase machine (not by me) by the substitution of a double ended grinder motor but I may reconvert it back to 3 ph.
It came with all the accessories apart from 5C collets but did come with a holder to take ER32 collets.
I have not used it much, I wait until about a dozen tools need resharpening and  then have a blitz.
I have not used a T&C cutter grinder in industry so class myself as a beginner and am grateful for others sharing their knowledge on sites like this.
Brian


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> No hole in the bucket?



No idea but the French have something like  'The Carthorse Julie'

Then there is Hector Berlioz;a Syphonie Fantatastique and  the 'March to the Scaffold 'bit
It issomething to do with an old hag knitting and that unappreciated Englisg expression 'Heads will roll1'

And with her head tucked underneath her arm--- she walks the Bloody Tower


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

Brian Hutchings said:


> My T&C Grinder is a Union made by Harrisons. It has beem made into a single phase machine (not by me) by the substitution of a double ended grinder motor but I may reconvert it back to 3 ph.
> It came with all the accessories apart from 5C collets but did come with a holder to take ER32 collets.
> I have not used it much, I wait until about a dozen tools need resharpening and  then have a blitz.
> I have not used a T&C cutter grinder in industry so class myself as a beginner and am grateful for others sharing their knowledge on sites like this.
> ...


Do you have another work holding head for it? Do you put that head then on the magnet? Or take the magnet of? 

Some time ago I bought an inverter to see how it works it was actually quite doable, makes 3-Phase out of single phase, adds speed control, sometimes adds input for E-stop. I prefer 2nd hand brand ones over new Chinese (about same price), the documentation is so much easier to understand that set up is more easy. Getting an understandable explanation for the many parameters helps.

Greetings Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> No idea but the French have something like  'The Carthorse Julie'
> 
> Then there is Hector Berlioz;a Syphonie Fantatastique and  the 'March to the Scaffold 'bit
> It issomething to do with an old hag knitting and that unappreciated Englisg expression 'Heads will roll1'
> ...



This side of the discussion scares me.. , people tell me that I will not die in my sleep (I think they refer to work safety).
Stay safe, do not leave your chain saw running unattended. 
Always check power switch on the axe, before you plug it in.

Greetings Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> This side of the discussion scares me.. , people tell me that I will not die in my sleep (I think they refer to work safety).
> Stay safe, do not leave your chain saw running unattended.
> Always check power switch on the axe, before you plug it in.
> 
> Greetings Timo


I'm dying to tell a joke about a pathologist.


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## Brian Hutchings (Jun 5, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Do you have another work holding head for it? Do you put that head then on the magnet? Or take the magnet of?
> 
> Some time ago I bought an inverter to see how it works it was actually quite doable, makes 3-Phase out of single phase, adds speed control, sometimes adds input for E-stop. I prefer 2nd hand brand ones over new Chinese (about same price), the documentation is so much easier to understand that set up is more easy. Getting an understandable explanation for the many parameters helps.
> 
> Greetings Timo


Hello Timo, yes there is another workhead. Below is a view inside the cabinet. There are a couple of items that I have bought or already had but the rest came with it, including the magnetic table which I remove when I need to use the workhead and centres.


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## Preston Engebretson (Jun 5, 2021)

"I was advised here in some posts to look for accessories. And as I feared the machine comes with "one" as in "1" collet. I did not even care to check its size. I think the seller bought it to be able to demonstrate the machine, the collet nut was brand new and srewed on very smooth. It uses C10 collets which limits clamping range from 2.4 to 10 mm diameter. These Collets seem to be Japanese style milling chuck collets. I will have to source them somewhere. ( I was told it is easy, I was not told it is cheap) "

I had a look as C10 was not known to me...looks like they are like Hens Teeth...hard to find.

Here are some dimensions for them that I found.  



			Balas C series Collets (C4, C6, C8, C10, etc)
		


Best Regards,

Preston


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## timo_gross (Jun 6, 2021)

Preston Engebretson said:


> "I was advised here in some posts to look for accessories. And as I feared the machine comes with "one" as in "1" collet. I did not even care to check its size. I think the seller bought it to be able to demonstrate the machine, the collet nut was brand new and srewed on very smooth. It uses C10 collets which limits clamping range from 2.4 to 10 mm diameter. These Collets seem to be Japanese style milling chuck collets. I will have to source them somewhere. ( I was told it is easy, I was not told it is cheap) "
> 
> I had a look as C10 was not known to me...looks like they are like Hens Teeth...hard to find.
> 
> ...


Hi Preston,

Thanks for jumping in, it looks like the C10 you found is again something different. But these are the ones that I need.








			http://www.mst-corp.co.jp/en/
		


I can get the collets from this japanese company there is a local reseller were I can order it. C10 is the smallest size clamp range from 2.4 mm to 10 mm.

Greetings Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 7, 2021)

So the machine came, I paid, they dumped it on my floor. 

As the simplest small beginners project I tried to convert some broken carbide endmills into a 60° tip. 

I am a little shocked  . 

That tiny wheel makes quick dust out of the carbide  Two tips 6 mm no pollishing, or anything right out of the grinding.




I tried to polish a little, hard to see a difference on the photo. 




It will take time, to figure out how this all works. 

Greetings Timo


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## simonbirt (Jun 7, 2021)

I have a Kennet and a Quorn, I built the Kennet about 20 years ago and acquired the Quorn nearly finished. 

I use the Kennet all the time as it is simple to set up and does a good job on lathe tools and end mills. The Quorn will sharpen almost anything (with the right accessory). If I had to choose one over the other, it would be the Kennet as it does 99% of what I need to do. 

If you fancy a challenge then building the Quorn could be for you. Just making the ball handles took weeks. 

I also have a Darex drill sharpener (Industrial version) which does a fine job. But again I can produce 4 facet drill points on the Kennet. 

Some photos of the line up with accessories;


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## simonbirt (Jun 7, 2021)




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## goldstar31 (Jun 7, 2021)

I have BOTH and would recommend the Kennet for day to day tasks.
Actually I am awaiting the delivery of the new Mark3 Quorn kit.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 8, 2021)

H


simonbirt said:


> I have a Kennet and a Quorn, I built the Kennet about 20 years ago and acquired the Quorn nearly finished.
> 
> I use the Kennet all the time as it is simple to set up and does a good job on lathe tools and end mills. The Quorn will sharpen almost anything (with the right accessory). If I had to choose one over the other, it would be the Kennet as it does 99% of what I need to do.
> 
> ...


How difficult was it to build the Kennet?  Do you know where I could get some plans for it?


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## timo_gross (Jun 8, 2021)

Bob
[/QUOTE]


simonbirt said:


> I have a Kennet and a Quorn, I built the Kennet about 20 years ago and acquired the Quorn nearly finished.
> 
> I use the Kennet all the time as it is simple to set up and does a good job on lathe tools and end mills. The Quorn will sharpen almost anything (with the right accessory). If I had to choose one over the other, it would be the Kennet as it does 99% of what I need to do.
> 
> ...



So many adjustment screws and ball handles. The Quorn Grinder workhead looks like a Spider with all the ball handles 

The first free improvised attempt looks a little wrong, it was totally broken, and now it is at least side milling after making a new "freestyle" tip. I would call it semi success.  

Long way to go.

Outch, first estimate for sich bellow way covers 850 Euros. On the one hand I am happy to hear that the company is at least willing to make it specific to order. On the other hand I was hoping it would not be that expensive.


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## deverett (Jun 8, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> The machine runs on Linar rails on most moving axis. But all the covers are damaged. The seller promised me they would not cost too much, he wants to hook me up with supplier of those.
> View attachment 126267
> 
> 
> Greetings Timo



I can't really envisage the size of the bellows but one source if they are the correct size is replacement bellows for Seig type milling machines.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## timo_gross (Jun 8, 2021)

deverett said:


> I can't really envisage the size of the bellows but one source if they are the correct size is replacement bellows for Seig type milling machines.
> 
> Dave
> The Emerald Isle



I think the size is about the same range. I need to see, question is if the Sieg covers will be "findable". Maybe someone is thinking the first estimate quote over ;-)....
I follow that up, if I can use something that is in mass production it then must be cheaper.

I could use superglue and a family pack of face masks to make disposable way covers. 

Greetings Timo.


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## simonbirt (Jun 8, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> H
> 
> How difficult was it to build the Kennet?  Do you know where I could get some plans for it?


Hello Richard,

The Kennet is not to complicated to build. I got the castings from Model Engineering Services (Ivan Law). All the sliding surfaces were pre ground as I recall. Not sure if castings are still available. Have you looked at the Worden? 

The Quorn on the other hand is a major undertaking and to be honest, unless one enjoys it as a project on its own, it would be difficult to justify. At the speed I work I recon it would take a couple of years to build another, with all the accessories. Hence my liking of the Kennet which is very simple and easy to set up, the Quorn is not, which is possibly why Professor Chaddock wrote a 128 page book to explain how to use it. 

I think if I were starting again I may go down the Worden route with a few tweaks so that it is as capable as the Kennet.


Simon


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## goldstar31 (Jun 8, 2021)

Whilst I agree, the firm of Model Engineering Services no longer trades.
As it is sid, the Worden Mark3 exists with Heminmgwaykits but I doubt that the plans alone are available and the cost of a kit combined with the post and and packsge pus duties maybe daunting.
The alternatives are many but if aspirations are slightly less than those available on the Kennet are acceptable, I would plump for a cheap set of plans( £20) in the UK of the Australian Eccentric Engineering Acute tool and cutter grinder.  Apart from a few proprietory handles, the rest is accomplished omn a very modestly equipped lathe from  really the contre contents of the scrap bin.
If a grinder with the capabil;ty of prodicing razor sharp lathe tools is your desire and the ability to sharpen the ends of milling cutters is your desire then go ahead with the Acute. You CAN  make things easier with a simplr kit or go for the made up machine and add a cheap 6" Chinese double ended grinder having changed the awful grinding wheels to 'something better'

I have a grinder as described along with my Quorn and Kennet.

Hint

From the little kit, it is less than a week's spare time.

I hope vthat this helps


Norman


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## Richard Hed (Jun 8, 2021)

simonbirt said:


> Hello Richard,
> 
> The Kennet is not to complicated to build. I got the castings from Model Engineering Services (Ivan Law). All the sliding surfaces were pre ground as I recall. Not sure if castings are still available. Have you looked at the Worden?
> 
> ...


Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague  (whichever that might be THIS week).  I really can't see why this woud be so complicate.  90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits.  THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends.  There are occassionally something else.  I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.


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## timo_gross (Jun 8, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague  (whichever that might be THIS week).  I really can't see why this woud be so complicate.  90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits.  THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends.  There are occassionally something else.  I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.



Yes, it seems to develop a pattern
I guess that was the origin of the Quorn,
 "the wizzard" was not yet available back in the day, would have been probably too expensive anyway. Some tool, not a drill, wanted to be invented and then put to life.

Do not forget it is called a cutter grinder not cutter touchupper or cutter sharpener.



goldstar31 said:


> Timo
> 
> Yes and how long is a piece of string?
> IMHO it all depends on what on what you want to grind. ....
> ...




Cheers Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 8, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Everything I've heard about the Quorn (There was a short story about the "Mightiest Quorn" in the 60's that I read which this always makes me thimpfk of), I will avoid it like the latest plague  (whichever that might be THIS week).  I really can't see why this woud be so complicate.  90% of what I need a grinder for is to sharpen drill bits.  THe rest is a need for sharpening mill ends.  There are occassionally something else.  I also grind tool bits, but mostly that is done by hand.



All to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Chaddock never published the drawings im the 60's


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2021)

simonbirt said:


> I think if I were starting again I may go down the Worden route with a few tweaks so that it is as capable as the Kennet.
> 
> 
> Simon



Work has xome to a stop until I get more  and more light to attempt to compensate for one and a bit  weary old eyes.  I DID open Pandora's box that makes up the huge number of bits of the new Quorn, In another box was a bewildering set of MORE grinding wheels and struggling again, I sort of msnaged to get the gist of 'the neccesity of puting all these things on mandre ls and then dress them with a dianond to regularly to be able to work to'a tenth of a thous- or better' Surprisingly, the recommendations  for the no longer savailable Kennet and the newer Worden id exactly the same.
I sort of looked at my existing grinding department-- and realised that U could improve-- a LOT.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Yes, it seems to develop a pattern
> I guess that was the origin of the Quorn,
> 
> 
> ...



No!    The Quorn is a very old design and most of us oldies agree that the Deckel grinder is the most likely predecessor.  Certainly, the original machine was not made on a 'just after the War' Myford. It was made. on a flat bed Drummond. I had a Round bed one! Drummonds were in existence during WW1. Later, the Myford firm took them over. It is tortology like Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Ancirnt Rome.
Looking as best that I can, the Quorn does not run on a water lubricant, it is essentially a run dry and dusty machine.  Chaddock-- and now Kirk Burwell both suggest thart as the thing is so light, it might be prudent to take it-- outside the workshop. 
Lookng back to the life of Chaddock,  amingst his other attributes, he was 'in' on the Atomic bomb Manhatta Ptoject but these were the days when. there were no milling machines until Ned Westbury produced a crude mill drill.  I made one -  Heaven knows when.  Then improvements came  from Arnold Throp of Dore Engineering  who probably has a hand  in the design of the Kenne t with Ivan Law of Model Engineering Services which also produced castings etc for Chaddock's Quorns. Mine came from there!
 It seems that Chaddock was hell bent on making a Vee6 and later a Vee8 engine and the  Quorn was used to make the 1/10th diamer cutters.   However, the Quorn then could not shar pen them and new ones  had to be made and made.
However the Deckel was very limite d in versatility and it was intended to ,make engraving cutters Chaddockbeing a Professor of Engineering and Principal of Loughborough College expanded and e xpanded the design to sharpennall sorts of tooling- including hacksaw blades. 
Over many years, the Quorn was improved by many wor kers.  Hugill was one and Amos enabled to 'spindle cartridge ot surface grin on a vertical mill.  Today, the cheapness and avaiability of the ER collet system ( and also the 65C system  from a non approved supllier) has extended the Quorn's ability. The workhead has been vastly improved and simlified and the general availability of milling machines in the home workshop has simplified things- a little. 
It has been copied and it has been constructed without castings.
For the needs of those still in the little home workshop, it still has a place


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## BaronJ (Jun 10, 2021)

Hi Norman, Guys,

The "Quorn" is basically a "Deckel" on steroids !  With all those ball handles looking like an octopus is quite apt !

Looking at my much modified "Brooks" putting a handle on all the adjustable parts it wouldn't look too much different to the Quorn !


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Norman, Guys,
> 
> The "Quorn" is basically a "Deckel" on steroids !  With all those ball handles looking like an octopus is quite apt !
> 
> Looking at my much modified "Brooks" putting a handle on all the adjustable parts it wouldn't look too much different to the Quorn !



I have the 'old' Quorn and the deckel clone end to end and the front 'bed bars with the micrometer adjustment are almost identical and  there are ALL these tentacles - which people call ball handles.

THen, there ALL these graduuations upon graduations. Oh dear YES!

Thinking about graduations, the rather exotic Potts home made affair might  be employed with the Quorn-- sineday

Cheers John and Thank You


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## timo_gross (Jun 10, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> No!    The Quorn is a very old design and most of us oldies agree that the Deckel grinder is the most likely predecessor. .....
> 
> It has been copied and it has been constructed without castings.
> For the needs of those still in the little home workshop, it still has a place



Hello Norman,

Yes, that is what I tried to point out in reply to the "unneccesary" complication of the Quorn. The Quorn was made to produce entire tools not only sharpen existing ones was my guess. But as I understand from the information I red, it was always a DIY-project for the enthusiast and occasional user never a "production machine".


A machine like this can be bought nowadays. It only grinds the tip of the endmill, not the flutes. Basically an upgraded drill sharpener. It produces a predifined geometry. Easy to use, very few adjustment knobs, that the user needs to tweak. (or can tweak depends on the viewpoint). To some extend the machines are between expensive and more expensive. Suppliers of the more expensive ones, will be able to adjust the tip geometry to match a certain customer specification. There it is: Not complicated, quick to use, easy to learn (takes 10 min with a good instructor). Prices, geometries, quality of machine and grinding wheel,  covered flute counts. All this varies a lot between the lookalikes. About same price as my recend 2nd hand purchase.

To cover different tasks, you can end up with a whole collection of those green machines. In my opinion more suitable for factories, that sharpen a lot of the same style tools frequently.

Quorn was also designed during a time were you could not just buy a carbide cutter. An old design indeed. Predating all the full automatic CNC machines for decades.
I would be curious to see how an endmill was produced in mass production 60 or 70 years ago.

So in your opinion it would be a possible option and not sacrilegious to make it with bar stock for the big parts?  
I ordered a set of plans quite a while ago, then I compared prices and tried figure out options.

Did I understand correct, that you are starting a complete new built of the Quorn machine? At first I thought you are only upgrading some parts of it. I would be exited to see some pictures when you start your production of parts.

Greetings Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 10, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello Norman,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rhetorically -- Yes


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## goldstar31 (Jun 11, 2021)

I may appear rather churlish but I am 91 and yrddyerday, I was advised of another visit to hos[ital trgarding my lack of vision.
Model engineering is simply  a hobby.  Well it is to me.  I can't use a calera or a phone- which I've repeated umpteen times


Best Wishes

Norman

The news broke this AM that ONE HUNDRED MILLION vaccone dozes are being given to less fortunate countries. The dozes are either free or are at cost. Shareholders in Astra Zeneca are foregoing the return on their investment.  I am a major shareholder in a REAL and needdy world.
I feel good. 
Knowing ehere priorities lie is important. 
I have a Quorn and whatever.  50 Million people are not interested


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## Brian Hutchings (Jun 11, 2021)

I seem to remember that Prof Chaddock made the Quorn so that he could make the cutting tools to build a working model of the BRM V16 racing car engine.
It was intended more for tool making than just resharpening used tools. Once you realise this then I think than criticism of its complexity is most unfair.
Brian


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## timo_gross (Jun 11, 2021)

Brian Hutchings said:


> I seem to remember that Prof Chaddock made the Quorn so that he could make the cutting tools to build a working model of the BRM V16 racing car engine.
> It was intended more for tool making than just resharpening used tools. Once you realise this then I think than criticism of its complexity is most unfair.
> Brian



Exactly the point, that the complexity is not built into it to "Confuse the Russians". 
For just sharpening twist drills it is maybe not the easiest alternative. It was another time also. Today the variety of available tools is much greater, entry level tools are more affordable (I am guessing that).
And the variety of easy to use specialized machines grows constantly.
Other machining tasks can be handled by a CNC movement, allowing to use more simple tools instead of form tools.

Todays experiments with the 2nd hand japanese machine. (I do not own a Quorn)


bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday. Tried to convert the blank into a tool today.



Out came this (don*t laugh  ) Setting up these grinders without any clue  by trial and error. It is a challenge. Outcome looked very odd, I could invent some story that it has a purpose, but it is just what came out of the combination of angles and trying to cut a flute.
It drills very good in wood and plastic, because of the big space for chips. Drilling mild steel worked reasonable well. Very thin web and small chisel point.




I had another look at my spot drill and tried to copy its "look", this was the result. Looks almost like a real drill and it even drills holes into steel. 90° tip angle.

What I find confusing is that the cutter grinders seem to be all "one off" designs with a lot of differences, operation concepts and accessories. Very complex. I learned about the Deckel machines "S1" and "Martin Deckel S11" 



Greetings Timo


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## Richard Hed (Jun 11, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Todays experiments:
> 
> View attachment 126424
> 
> ...


looks goo to me, what are you complaining about?  Yes, the web looks a bit thin but you can fix that, right?  Also the point you can make less pointed., 135?


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 11, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> looks goo to me, what are you complaining about?  Yes, the web looks a bit thin but you can fix that, right?  Also the point you can make less pointed., 135?


Hello,

Not really complaining, just experimenting. I start to realize that it is not easy to find example setups. Because every machine comes with a different concept and adjustments are not comparable. I try to just get a feel for the geometry and how things are operated. 

Changing tip angles can be done, today I wanted to create a "spot drill" so I used 90°, because that I saw on spot drills.

Cheers Timo


----------



## Richard Hed (Jun 11, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello,
> 
> Not really complaining, just experimenting. I start to realize that it is not easy to find example setups. Because every machine comes with a different concept and adjustments are not comparable. I try to just get a feel for the geometry and how things are operated.
> 
> ...


Everything I say has to be in the form of a joke--also, everything I say is a lie.  That last one I told my son when he was about 10--it threw him for a loop.


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 11, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Todays experiments with the 2nd hand japanese machine. (I do not own a Quorn)
> View attachment 126424
> 
> bought some 6 mm drill blanks yesterday. Tried to convert the blank into a tool today.
> ...



Hi Timo,

I actually think that once you have hardened it and got the lip angles correct (90 Degrees) and four facet, you will have a very good spotting drill. The wide flute would also make it good at clearing the chips in a softer materiel.

Well done


----------



## ajoeiam (Jun 12, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Exactly the point, that the complexity is not built into it to "Confuse the Russians".
> For just sharpening twist drills it is maybe not the easiest alternative. It was another time also. Today the variety of available tools is much greater, entry level tools are more affordable (I am guessing that).
> And the variety of easy to use specialized machines grows constantly.
> Other machining tasks can be handled by a CNC movement, allowing to use more simple tools instead of form tools.
> ...





I have been following this thread with some interest. 

Am not finding it easy to find which machine you are actually using. 
Your results are fascinating. 
If you would perhaps share the machine information one more time - - - and - - - - what were your settings when you produced each of the pictured items. 
(I find I learn more from my 'not goods' than I do from the 'good' items. Am thinking that your first example might be quite similar to the 'parabolic' drills recommended for aluminum.
(Hopefully not too terse - - - grin!!)

TIA


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 12, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Timo,
> 
> I actually think that once you have hardened it and got the lip angles correct (90 Degrees) and four facet, you will have a very good spotting drill. The wide flute would also make it good at clearing the chips in a softer materiel.
> 
> Well done


Hi actually that is all ground from a hardened HSS blank, similar to square lathe bits. The facets are not so easy to catch on camera. Drilling works fine.


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 12, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> I have been following this thread with some interest.
> 
> Am not finding it easy to find which machine you are actually using.
> Your results are fascinating.
> ...


Hello,

it is that 2nd hand machine that I bought last Saturday, it was delivered on Monday. Now I was exited to show my first steps on using it.

At the moment I am limited to 6mm blanks, it came only with one collet. Some (few) more collets are ordered.
They are pricey, so there will never be a complete set of them.


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hi actually that is all ground from a hardened HSS blank, similar to square lathe bits. The facets are not so easy to catch on camera. Drilling works fine.



Hi Timo,

Thanks, here in the UK "Drill rod" or "Silver Steel rod" is supplied soft and it is left for you to harden !  I wasn't aware that you could buy pre-hard drill blanks, here it would be HSS tool blanks.  I actually have some 1/8" and 3/32" sold as 2.5 mm and 3 mm.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 12, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Timo,
> 
> Thanks, here in the UK "Drill rod" or "Silver Steel rod" is supplied soft and it is left for you to harden !  I wasn't aware that you could buy pre-hard drill blanks, here it would be HSS tool blanks.  I actually have some 1/8" and 3/32" sold as 2.5 mm and 3 mm.



Years ago, I wanted a lathe alignment bar with a No2MT shank.
I was orgaising a flight and car hire and a my villa in Menorca in the Baleares.
He thought that he could do me a good turn by grinding doen a worn out reamer,
Un fact, it cost him a compolete bug grinding wheel in grinding the flute s off.
Hence as a cost accountant, I wondered and obviously wonder now just how much it cost him.

I make things that I cannot get at a reasonable  cost and question the pres ennt prudence( or other wise)

I the past week. or so,  I was lent a professional drill grinder- ex USA and 110Volts but found that a copy hsd beenn made by the Chinese for a me re £50 in China and  -- in plastic.

So the written down value. of machinery- after deducting the 20% VAT- Value Added Tax or Plus Valia was 25% on obviously a sliding scale pe r annum.

I tend to expect things to go uo in valu e. I bought that villa for £7500 and after all charges got £168,000 back,

M thoughts- of course.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Timo,
> 
> Thanks, here in the UK "Drill rod" or "Silver Steel rod" is supplied soft and it is left for you to harden !  I wasn't aware that you could buy pre-hard drill blanks, here it would be HSS tool blanks.  I actually have some 1/8" and 3/32" sold as 2.5 mm and 3 mm.


Hello, 

yes it happens a lot to me that I confuse the language, and materials, because it is not always clear what is what.
The HHS tool blanks come from the same Taiwanese company that also makes drills. Drill Blanks They call it drill blank on the pack.

The tool shops stock the complete range of sizes, and they sell them single.  

Greetings Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Years ago, I wanted a lathe alignment bar with a No2MT shank.
> I was orgaising a flight and car hire and a my villa in Menorca in the Baleares.
> He thought that he could do me a good turn by grinding doen a worn out reamer,
> Un fact, it cost him a compolete bug grinding wheel in grinding the flute s off.
> ...



I am not sure what you are trying to say?

Reasonable "make or buy" decisions for the metal working hobby are an impossible task.
Nothing I can think of that cannot be bought at a reasonable cost. (exception beeing houses obviously).
As soon as I start thinking in total cost incl. cost of ownership and worktime, it becomes a nightmare.

If I start factoring all costs. The DIY drill will turn out to have cost several thousand £. I could have bought one for 1£ 20P.
In that case I would not need the drill in the 1st place.
I could have bought a can of beer for the money 

I doubt that machine tools are a good area for speculative investments, unless you have all the knowledge about the collectors markets.
Most machinery looses its value up to a certain age, after this it is all about working condition.

One question is if a Chinese plastic copy of a professional drill grinder is still a professional drill grinder?
I bought some used machinery that was more expensive, than a similar sized new one. My hope is it works better and will loose less value.

Greetings Timo

p.s. Do not get distracted with figuring out if the Quorn MKIII will go up in value. 
      Just keep us up to date with progress.


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## ajoeiam (Jun 13, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello,
> 
> it is that 2nd hand machine that I bought last Saturday, it was delivered on Monday. Now I was exited to show my first steps on using it.View attachment 126462
> 
> ...



Sorry - - - - I can't find any information on the machine. 
Do you have any?


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> Sorry - - - - I can't find any information on the machine.
> Do you have any?



I suppose that I was just tall enough to see over the blacsmith's anvil.  I watched intently, and more than 80 years later, I'm still learning.

Yesterday, my son drove his 'Deux Chevaux which was  designed in the Dark Ages to do a job that he hadn;t time to do--- and they asked where the pony to plag in the computer was.

Of courde it was 'a vapeur blockage in the hot w eather and it was a 2 cylinder aircooled engine.

So I presented him with my old stroboscope for diesl engines.  
It was my 91st birthday-- nand I mcould recall those days.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> Sorry - - - - I can't find any information on the machine.
> Do you have any?


Not really, only this pdf. I found a 2nd hand offer on some Japanese used machine website, it seems to be a rare species.
So I think I am stuck with a "Uniquorn" (pun trial)

I could order some collets, grinding wheels are 31.75 mm which is not too unusual, so that I will figure out at some point. 

Greetings Timo


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## awake (Jun 13, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Not really, only this pdf. I found a 2nd hand offer on some Japanese used machine website, it seems to be a rare species.
> So I think I am stuck with a "Uniquorn" (pun trial)
> 
> I could order some collets, grinding wheels are 31.75 mm which is not too unusual, so that I will figure out at some point.
> ...


Excellent pun!


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

I


awake said:


> Excellent pun!



Time on your hands? Foot saw and weary? Fathom that out
Of course it is the 'Buy the Mark Twain\

Said he swinging the lead


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

Timo

If you try to follow me on the metal cutting bandsaw discussion, you will realise that I have opened the Quorn parcels and the instruction book. 

As Chaddock- originally wrotte up very clearly. how to sharpen a multitude of tools you might do wors e that getting one of the MK3 sets of plans etc ot the older Book of the Quorn.

Very exhausting but readab;e and very informatuve


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Timo
> 
> If you try to follow me on the metal cutting bandsaw discussion, you will realise that I have opened the Quorn parcels and the instruction book.
> 
> ...



Hello Norman,

Thank you for that kind reminder. I actually already have purchased the plans a while ago. As things go, I did not study them in depth.
Will have a look tomorrow.

Greetings Timo


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## Gordon (Jun 13, 2021)

I just looked at the Quorn kit. $875 US dollars for a kit which would require a lot of metric taps, dies etc which I do not have and a motor using 220 volts. Probably not in my future. Even if I live to 100 that only leaves me 19 years to justify that type of investment.


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## RonGinger (Jun 13, 2021)

If you are making it for yourself there is no need t o buy metric taps, just adjust the threaded features to taps you do have. Likewise a a 120v motor, even a 12v DC motor, can be substituted for 220v motor.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

[Deketed

Computer was playing up and I have major eye problems from macular degeration from extreme old age


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## Gordon (Jun 13, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I've only 9 yrstds to thr 100-- but who cares? I have a Mk1 already and now a Mk3 kit at £625.
> It all dpends on what you want to sharpen and what you are prepared to spend but I would look at the Bonelle which does not use castings. Again re motors any small 1/5th HP ACone which will run at 28880 rpm will be ideal but I ran mine on a 1440 one which came out of a scrap washing machine. The Pulleys are just altered
> Get the Bonelle plans free from the 'net and buy  Chaddocks book as a guide
> 
> Norman


I could cash in some of the bitcoin offers which get rerouted to my spam folder. All I have to do is supply my bank account information and it will be deposited directly to my account. What I really have a problem understanding is why most of these offers are in  Dutch. I don't talk Dutch but I know enough to get the general idea.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 14, 2021)

I can only apologise.
I have macular degeeration and have now found that my computer was playing up.  My sight is made worse by the need for very bright light.
Sorry.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 14, 2021)

Not accepted

Norman


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## ajoeiam (Jun 14, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Not really, only this pdf. I found a 2nd hand offer on some Japanese used machine website, it seems to be a rare species.
> So I think I am stuck with a "Uniquorn" (pun trial)
> 
> I could order some collets, grinding wheels are 31.75 mm which is not too unusual, so that I will figure out at some point.
> ...



I'm wondering about finding an equivalent machine.
Wondering if the 'tool grinding machine' is enough.

How did you find your model?

TIA


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## ajoeiam (Jun 14, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> My word jumble  apart,
> The Maek1 book and drawings are almost essentially Inoerial and I do recall what was probaly metric in the form of a British Association part( yes it is!)
> Two of my former club members masde uo- and IMHO improved the design.  I wrote on that subject SEVERAL times in the past.
> To the serious would be constructer,  there are - or were Mark2 castings which would allow for a 5C collet alteration. It is there - in the USA.  Again, I have already written on that and also my comments about  Deckel clone parts available on E-Bay---- and STILL ARE!
> ...



Mr Norman - - - - - some of us are using the topic for surrounding and/or applicable knowledge.

If the topic offends you - - - - please just ignore it and allow the rest of us who are using it for whatever purpose to continue such.

TIA


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## timo_gross (Jun 14, 2021)

ajoeiam said:


> I'm wondering about finding an equivalent machine.
> Wondering if the 'tool grinding machine' is enough.
> 
> How did you find your model?
> ...



Hello, 

I did not really search for it, I was asked if I would be interested.  
It seemed interesting, so I checked it out because it was only 5 min away.
Then it was more impulse buy  and curiosity than needing to grind a particular tool. 

Similar style machines will travel under the name "tool grinder". 
"universal grinder" "tool and cutter grinder"?

Machines I found since the thread was sarted or knew before. 
Bonelle, Mini Bonelle, Deckel D-bit grinder, Cincinatti No1, Deckel S1, DeckelS11, and more. You will find them all in the thread.

Here are more ideas:









						DIY Tool and Cutter Grinder Idea Notebook
					

At some point most hobby machinists get interested in possibly building a Tool and Cutter Grinder.  There's something fascinating about building a machine




					www.cnccookbook.com
				




Another diy project, that looks amazing. 





						MINI-BONELLE-II, von der Schleifvorrichtung zur Universalschleifmaschine
					






					www.metallmodellbau.de
				




You will also find "sub assemblies" from china. 





Greetigs Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 14, 2021)

For the English and the Welsh, there is a Geo. Alexander  Deckel clone  on HomeWorkshop.co.  UK
Son of the late John Dtevenson- site owner. It is a single lip grinder.

Priced at £450 and with lots of collets. Bolection only

N


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## DaveS (Jun 30, 2021)

geo said:


> I have the dekel clone d bit grinder only problem I have is in the first set up step for any job put the white dot in the white dot window there is no white dot there is no window. Both Robin Renzetti and Stephan Gotteswinter have good vids on the deckel clone. The adapter to grind lathe tools is ordinary good for 25mm stock I have made up adapters to suit the adapter for drill sharpening is cumbersome but it works


hi Geo how do you start your set up i have the same problem on my grinder no window or dot and was wondering where to index before i start


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## goldstar31 (Jun 30, 2021)

DaveS said:


> hi Geo how do you start your set up i have the same problem on my grinder no window or dot and was wondering where to index before i start



I've  tried to write a cohesive answer elsewhere  and a[[reciate that  most people find difficulty in maths especially when understand spheres and  cones and cylinders. Faced with a Deckel clone.
So trying to break the construction of a D Bit is 
Chuck the solid round cylinder in a collet and simply reduce the side- anf side to mike at say 

1/2 Diameteer plus 0.002"
THen switch the grinding  to a cutting nose of 7 degrees  and possibly remove the non essential flank which doesn't but.

Other workers may differ but that iis one way


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## DaveS (Jul 1, 2021)

i was just wondering where the red dot in the window set the orientation of the work head to the stops when in the 180 degree position after the d bit had been aligned with the set up tool and the flat vertical if that makes sense


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## goldstar31 (Jul 1, 2021)

I thought that I had given the old simple measurement  when it all could have been done on a Columbus gauge,  See Spaparey's the Amaturs Lathe book.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After looking at  a video by a crtain 'ClickSpring', I realised just how different  my fumblong description was in comparison.

Sparey (and I)  were creating a a flat surface whereas Clixkspring was creating what was/is an engraving cutter.
Again, George H Thomas writing in Model Engineers Workshop Manual ( and in his section on boring tools) shows some tools  similar to that of Leaonard Sparey.

I suppose that it is a matter of choice. Neither is wrong.

What is interesting is that old Sparey has also modified an ordinary twist drill to create a flat bottomed surface.

It's all a BIG topic and hearking back to the humble homemade Quorn , it is possible to cut a hss or high carbon steel tool on it whereas the Deckel SO and its clone was actually designed specifically for a multitude of engraving citters in the engraving business. 
However, using the method which I described  will  , if the large flat is ground FIRST does not need to use the azimuth rings for that operation.  
However,  I shudder to think that the front of the cuttingnose grinding PRECEDES the  much simpler and larger ;flat!

Maybe you might mentiom in more detail your intentions

But I hope that this helps somewhat

Norman


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## geo (Jul 3, 2021)

DaveS said:


> i was just wondering where the red dot in the window set the orientation of the work head to the stops when in the 180 degree position after the d bit had been aligned with the set up tool and the flat vertical if that makes sense


Dave get a copy of the dekel manual it’s easier to read I sacrificed mild steel off cuts until I got it right
i started with the basic centring instruction until I got it right made a mark and use zero as the index


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## geo (Jul 15, 2021)

Dave if you go on to the shars site there is a reasonable explanation of how this type of index head works
i am now getting good results on cutters I haven’t bothered with drill sharpening or lathe tools


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