# Brian does Ridders flame eater



## Brian Rupnow (Feb 14, 2018)

I ordered up the newest Jan Ridder flame-eater design, and have modeled it all this morning. I have changed metric plate and shaft sizes to the nearest imperial (inch") size that is available and commonly used. This involved juggling a few parts around to compensate for minor differences in dimensions. This is the new design using a stainless cylinder and graphite piston and internal valve. These flame eater engines are notoriously dirty due to soot in the flame being sucked into the cylinder and resulting condensation. I am not in any great hurry to make this engine, but I know how that has worked out in the past. The amount of time I spend in my machine shop is in direct proportion to how much "real" work I have in any given week. ---Brian


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## vederstein (Feb 14, 2018)

Oh come on Brian.  You'll have this thing done in no time.  When you start a project, you tackle it like a fly on stink. 

...Ved.


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## Journeyman (Feb 15, 2018)

Brian, I did one of these a few years ago. It works but was very tempremental to get going. If I can do it I'm sure yours will be up and running in no time. Good luck with the build. My effort ***HERE*** a rather poor video I'm afraid...   
John


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## rlukens (Feb 15, 2018)

Journeyman said:


> Brian, I did one of these a few years ago. It works but was very tempremental to get going. If I can do it I'm sure yours will be up and running in no time. Good luck with the build. My effort ***HERE*** a rather poor video I'm afraid...
> John



John, I see you used brass for the internal valve. What material for the piston?

Brian... same question.

Russ


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## Journeyman (Feb 15, 2018)

Started off with cast iron for both valve and piston but with all the condensation it quickly rusted/gummed up. Changed both the valve and piston to brass which is an improvement. Jan reccomends graphite but I never tried this. The cylinder is stainless (no idea what grade I happened to have a bit the right size!) machined quite well though, I managed to make the flame hole too long, confused end and centre measurements, probably another reason for it being tempremental. This is the early version, the later one has a larger bore.
John


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

I will be using graphite for piston and valve, 316 stainless for cylinder.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

One surprising thing about this engine is how few parts it actually has. I have never worked with machineable graphite, in fact right at the moment I don't even know where to get it, but like everything else, I will find out as I go along.


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## rlukens (Feb 15, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> One surprising thing about this engine is how few parts it actually has. I have never worked with machineable graphite, in fact right at the moment I don't even know where to get it, but like everything else, I will find out as I go along.


For what it's worth, I just ordered a 1.250 X 12 inch bar of JC3 graphite from this outfit: http://beckergraphite.com/stock-graphite-rods/ 
$16.00 plus shipping... You have to place order by phone.
Russ


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

Thank you Russ--I may give them a call.--Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

I have enough brass left over from the power cylinder on the Stirling engine to make a flywheel for the flame eater engine. I picked up 6" of 1 1/2" 316 s.s. for $14 this morning. I also picked up some "real" work today, so now I get to do the great balancing act.


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## el gringo (Feb 15, 2018)

I find graphite @ Amazon in 1 foot lengths...machines nicely with standard tooling...I'm using carbide index cutting .
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

Thanks guys--Remember, I am in Ontario, Canada and if I shop out of USA I pay killer shipping charges and dollar differential.


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## el gringo (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm not sure Amazon worry's about residensy...The 'Prime' program gives free two day shipping ($100 year)... What the heck, give it a try




Superfine Molded Graphite Rod, 1"OD x 12"L, Each      


                     Sold by:                                                                                                          GraphiteStore 
                            Return window closed on Oct 6, 2017

                    $20.00


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## CFLBob (Feb 15, 2018)

Brian, your drawings are great!  

Can I ask what software you drew then in?  


Bob


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 15, 2018)

CFLBob said:


> Brian, your drawings are great!
> 
> Can I ask what software you drew then in?
> 
> ...



Solidworks


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 16, 2018)

I called my bearing supplier today to check and make sure that the metric bearings were available.  They were, so I ordered them--there is about a 5 day delivery because of heading into the long weekend here. I also changed the exterior shape of the cylinder. The way Jan had it shown would require a form tool to make the V shaped cooling fins, so I changed them to conventional cooling fins that can be made with a parting off tool. I have my lump of flywheel brass up in the lathe, and will probably finish the flywheel tomorrow.


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## Cogsy (Feb 16, 2018)

I have a couple of thoughts from when I built this engine if you want them Brian - no charge at all. Now bear in mind this was my first ever engine so I might have created my own problems, but the 3mm valve rod hole gave me fits. I didn't have a long enough bit to do the whole length of the hole at once so I had to come in from each end, resulting in a bit of misalignment and lots of hassle getting the rod to move smoothly. Perhaps now, even with access to longer bits, I'd think about drilling the hole a little larger and bushing each end to reduce dreaded friction.

The other thing I thought about was the travel of the valve. If you let it move down the bore any further than what it needs to achieve a seal, you're wasting precious vacuum, plus power to drive it back open. If I was making it again I'd make sure the valve moved the absolute minimum amount to achieve seal for maximum power.

I could write a whole story about machining the graphite but I'm thinking most of the issues there were lack of experience which won't be a problem for you. Good luck with the build, I'm sure you'll have less problem with it than I did.


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## Journeyman (Feb 17, 2018)

Cogsy said:


> ... the 3mm valve rod hole gave me fits. I didn't have a long enough bit to do the whole length of the hole at once so I had to come in from each end, resulting in a bit of misalignment and lots of hassle getting the rod to move smoothly. Perhaps now, even with access to longer bits, I'd think about drilling the hole a little larger and bushing each end to reduce dreaded friction...



I had similar problem, on mine the hole had to go through all the fins and drifted off-line. I made the hole larger and did indeed put a small brass bush at either end, much less friction.

John


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

Thank you gentlemen. I shall take this all into account.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

This mornings work yields a pretty little brass flywheel. The best thing about it was that the material was "left over" from the Stirling engine. I try and salvage every little short left over piece of material that I can.


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## CFLBob (Feb 17, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> This mornings work yields a pretty little brass flywheel. The best thing about it was that the material was "left over" from the Stirling engine. I try and salvage every little short left over piece of material that I can.



That's pretty.  

One of the pains of this hobby is buying metals to work on.  I just did an order with Online Metals for parts that will end up in my Duclos engine and really hit a brick wall looking for 3-1/2" aluminum for the flywheel.  The smallest piece I could get from Online Metals was $65 - for like an 11" cutoff scrap that I'd need to cut 1" off.  I found a guy on eBay that would sell 1" slice for $12 - $7 for the cutoff and $5 for shipping.  If I had that brass you had, you'd better believe I'd be using it just like you did.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

CFLBob--Whenever I need little bits of this or that, I buy a foot of it. It keeps the metal supplier from going crazy, and the stuff I have left over from each build always finds its way into the next build. Even at that, the average "little engine" I build costs me about 50 to 100$.  By the time you buy the material and the bearings and any other bits necessary, it adds up. That is why I sell my engine plans. It's never going to make me rich, but it does help with the cost of material.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

And to wind up the day--A couple of "in process" shots of the 316 stainless cylinder.


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## el gringo (Feb 17, 2018)

Brian, is it possible to purchase your 'imperialized' plans? I have Ridders metric drawings of this enginne but I hate to translate as I go during the build as I have with his nice drawings the past. 
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

el gringo said:


> Brian, is it possible to purchase your 'imperialized' plans? I have Ridders metric drawings of this enginne but I hate to translate as I go during the build as I have with his nice drawings the past.
> Ray M


Ray--I've been thinking about that one. The plans are certainly the intellectual property of Jan Ridders. However, It took me over a days work to model everything and create inch friendly versions of the plans. I think it would be okay for me to sell the inch version of the plans, as long as the purchaser is aware that I didn't come up with the original design in the first place. I would advise you to wait until I finish building the engine, because I quite frequently change the plans as the engine is built, if I see a better or easier way of doing something. I will have the engine finished probably within the next two weeks, and the drawings all updated by then. Contact me at [email protected] when you see that I have the engine finished. The cost will be $25 Canadian funds, paid to Paypal


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## el gringo (Feb 17, 2018)

Thank you, I understand and look forward to your finish...should I do the paypal thing now?
I am also very interested in the imperial conversion of his 'puppy mk2'


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 17, 2018)

No, don't pay any money until my engine is finished and the drawings properly updated. Just watch this thread. When you see my engine running, then do the Paypal thing.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 18, 2018)

I like my cylinders so much better when they can stand on their own two legs----Said legs are made of cold rolled steel, and still require a fit of polishing to get a really good finish.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 19, 2018)

This morning I whittled out a pair of crankshaft bearing stands. Nothing too exotic, but it'll do. I don't have the bearings yet that fit into the stands. I don't know if I have material for the baseplate or not---Will have to search my odds and sods basket to see.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2018)

VOILA!!! We have a base for our flame eater engine. I was supposed to go across town today to my "real job" but got a last minute reprieve by email. I hope my bearings come in today.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2018)

In the above picture you can see the chatter marks made by my parting off tool when cutting the fins. Other than a narrow file, does anybody have a better way to get rid of these chatter marks?


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2018)

I spent the lions share of today making a crankshaft, a crank throw and con-rod big end pin. I called about my bearings but they won't be in until tomorrow. I also drilled the 1/8" hole for the valve rod full length of the cylinder---You can see a 1/8" piece of cold rolled setting in the hole.


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## WSMkid (Feb 20, 2018)

As always it's looking great.  

You will have her running in no time. 

GJ


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2018)

WSMkid said:


> As always it's looking great.
> 
> You will have her running in no time.
> 
> GJ


 
Thanks GJ--I just watched about two dozen videos of this engine on Jan Ridders website, all built by different people. They seem to be great runners.--Brian


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## WSMkid (Feb 20, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Thanks GJ--I just watched about two dozen videos of this engine on Jan Ridders website, all built by different people. They seem to be great runners.--Brian




I enjoy watching these little gulpers run. There is one floating around on YouTube that looks to have about a 2" bore and 10-12" flywheels. I've watched that video many times wishing I had the setup/time to build one. 

Are you using ball bearings with the seals removed on this one? Wasn't sure what type of bearing you were waiting on. (Thinking back to time engine you tried a needle bearing.)

GJ


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 20, 2018)

I don't think you can even buy bearings without seals now. My bearings will be sealed single race ball bearings. I will remove the seals and wash out all of the factory grease. Then, depending on how freely the flywheel rotates I MAY add a bit of light oil.


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## WSMkid (Feb 20, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> I will remove the seals and wash out all of the factory grease.




Sorry, this is what I was referring to. 

GJ


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## rlukens (Feb 21, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> In the above picture you can see the chatter marks made by my parting off tool when cutting the fins. Other than a narrow file, does anybody have a better way to get rid of these chatter marks?



I can't speak from experience, with that particular issue but...
I'll often put a piece of rag between a countersink and the part before cutting. Old trick that always prevents chatter. I've never tried it with a parting tool.
Of course you know that a solid set-up is a must. Beyond that speeds and feeds?


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## Dalee (Feb 21, 2018)

Hi,

Open bearings are readily available. And I think are pretty necessary for this engine.

I ordered mine off of eBay. The 3mm ones were dirt cheap, .77¢ for 10pcs. The 10mm cost me a dollar for two.


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## el gringo (Feb 21, 2018)

I am working on my third 'flamegulper' type engine.This one being the POPPIN. I am using ball bearings because of design criteria. The first two, Duclos "little blazer' and the larger 'flame eater' both use bronze bearings and run very well.  
I am using shielded ball bearings on the POPPIN main and rocker shaft.
https://youtu.be/V0DCyjwoFTs

I feel ball bearings might be overkill and if sleeve bearings are properly made and installed will work just fine on these engines if the overall design is efficient enough.

Southbend did well on my old 9", babbit bearings although later upgrading to 'frictionless' brgs.

I broke open some of the cheapo bearings and looked at the balls through magnification, kinda like the surface texture of the moon.

Have used Bocabearing in the past with positive results.

Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 21, 2018)

My three bearings came in today. They cost $23.00 total and have seals on them. I'm not going to rush to take the seals out at least until I am set up to do some comparative tests to see how easily they spin. The key issue is that they fit the crankshaft and con rod pin properly. Tomorrow I will put the counterbores in the bearing supports and maybe build a con rod. I am still a bit undecided what material to use for pistons. Jan Ridders drawings indicate that you can use graphite OR cast iron. Nobody in Barrie sells machinable graphite, and I already have some cast iron left over from other projects. I may go with cast iron and if it don't work I can switch to machinable graphite after the fact.


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## Cogsy (Feb 21, 2018)

You will be amazed how much drag there is in those sealed bearings Brian, both from the seal lips dragging on the inner race and the (much higher) drag of the grease. If you want to retain the look of sealed bearings, along with a bit of protection from dust, etc. shielded bearings are the way to go as they don't contact the inner race with the shields. You will still have to wash the grease out though.


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## CFLBob (Feb 21, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> ...I am still a bit undecided what material to use for pistons. Jan Ridders drawings indicate that you can use graphite OR cast iron. Nobody in Barrie sells machinable graphite, and I already have some cast iron left over from other projects. I may go with cast iron and if it don't work I can switch to machinable graphite after the fact.



For what it's worth, the main difference I see is that the cast iron is harder than the aluminum and might wear it out, while the graphite wouldn't.  But I'd probably use the cast iron, since I had it.

I don't know how much it matters.  

The Duclos engine I'm building says bronze, or cold rolled steel for the piston (also with an aluminum cylinder) and I'm trying the CRS.


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## werowance (Feb 22, 2018)

i thought his cylinder was SS not aluminum?  or is there an aluminum part that rides on the pistons?

also Brian,  you may have already mentioned.  but will you be honing the cylinder or laping it?

looking good so far.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

The cylinder is 316 stainless steel. The cylinder was drilled, then reamed with a 7/8" reamer, then honed with a 3 stone brake cylinder hone held in my variable speed drill at about 1/3 of full speed and passed from one end of the cylinder to the other 100 times, coming about 1/8" out of the cylinder with the honing stones each time on each stroke. The lapping part will happen when I make the pistons. I turn them to about 0.0005 oversize, then lap them into the cylinder with 600 grit lapping paste until the pistons just press in with light finger pressure but won't fall thru.


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## CFLBob (Feb 22, 2018)

werowance said:


> i thought his cylinder was SS not aluminum?  or is there an aluminum part that rides on the pistons?
> 
> ...



Ooops.  Sorry.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

Okay--The bearing stands are counterbored and the bearings (complete with seals and full of factory grease) , crankshaft, and flywheel are installed. Time for some comparative testing. This is hillbilly work at its finest. Using an online stop-watch, I gave the flywheel a spin and started then stopped the stopwatch. I repeated this  5 times. The average length of spin comes out to 7.18 seconds from when I flicked the flywheel into motion until all motion stopped. Next step will be to remove the seals, wash out any factory grease, then reassemble and check the "free-wheeling" time again.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

The results are in, and they are incredible. I disassembled everything, pulled the seals out of the bearings, then washed them in laquer thinners and blew them clean with compressed air, then reassembled everything exactly as it had been with the previous test. I did   five runs, using the same finger pressure to spin the flywheel (That is the hillbilly element) and the average length of free-wheeling was 2.51 minutes. That means that on average, the bearings without grease will spin 21 times longer than bearings with grease.


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## CFLBob (Feb 22, 2018)

Wow!  

I'm a retired engineer; I _love_ hillbilly engineering.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

As this assembly continues, I thought I might have an alignment issue with the centerline of the cylinder and the center of the very small ball bearing on the end of the crank throw. So--I made myself a special weapon, and installed it. I was right. The tip of that special weapon should fall directly on the center of the bearing.---It doesn't. Now I have to figure out what I'm going to do about it. I don't want an offset in my connecting rod!!!


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

Hahh!!!--It was the old "slot the bolt holes and move the cylinder over a bit" trick that saved the day.-I have to declare now--This was not a fault with my drawings. It was more a testament to accumulated tolerances and my inability to position everything dead nuts accurately when machining. Anyway--We're good now. The point of the new weapon is on center of the small bearing.


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## rlukens (Feb 22, 2018)

I'm not certain your "tests" are completely accurate. Did you factor in where the hillbilly's finger was before each test? I'll bet not.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

Here's a little trick your mother probably never told you about. When you locate a bearing into a prepared pocket that is "size on size", the bearings lose all ability to "self align" with each other. This can cause binding and make the shaft reluctant to spin freely. If you make the pocket about .001 to .002" oversize, then use a bit of Loctite on the outer race before assembling things, this lets the bearings align with the shaft and with each other. The trick though, is to not get any Loctite down into the balls of the bearing. So---as you see, I use masking tape and a scalpel to make a temporary "shield" on both sides of the bearing to keep Loctite out. Add my Loctite, reassemble everything quickly, tighten the bolts and let it set for 24 hours. The bearings will be perfectly aligned, and you can then safely disassemble things and remove the tape from the exposed side of the bearing. On the other side of the bearing that becomes inaccessible, just leave the tape there. It won't hurt anything.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 22, 2018)

I'm down to the point now where I'm making pieces so small that it should be against the law!!!


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## werowance (Feb 23, 2018)

Brian, do you plan to put a brass or bronze bushing or sleeve in the push rod guide hole drilled the length of the cylinder? would having a short one on both sides help reduce friction for the pushrod?

also, curious did you drill the guide hole before cutting the cooling fins or boring the cylinder hole?    edited,  sorry I see that you drilled the hole afterwards


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 23, 2018)

No guide in the pushrod hole. It is not a reamed hole. Only drilled, which makes it .001 to 0.003" oversize. The pushrod is 0.005 undersize.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 23, 2018)

Today I managed a con rod. It wasn't easy and it isn't pretty. Actually this is the second attempt. The first attempt--I don't want to talk about it. The bearing was only available with shields, which made it 5 mm wide rather than the 3 mm that I expected. This lead me to making a con-rod .094" thick with a 5 mm wide (0.197") hub.  I am going to attach the bearing to the con-rod with a dab of Loctite. Right now it's a slid-in fit.


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## el gringo (Feb 23, 2018)

Brian, can you see any reason the bearing standards cannot have through holes instead of pocket? This would allow the standards to be bolted to the base plate and line drilled and reamed in place.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 23, 2018)

el gringo said:


> Brian, can you see any reason the bearing standards cannot have through holes instead of pocket? This would allow the standards to be bolted to the base plate and line drilled and reamed in place.
> Ray M


I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2018)

Yesterday afternoon I decided to buy a 12" length of cast iron to make pistons from. I do have lots of short pieces in my stock drawer that would have each been good to make one piston, but this cylinder is kind of a special case, because the internal valve and the piston must both be lapped fits. Since both the internal valve and the piston would both have to be exactly the same diameter, I decided that this was the best way to do it. My cylinder is about 2" long. I turned a length of cast iron down for a length of 2 1/2" to a point where it would just start into the cylinder but not slide in. Then I coated the machined area with 600 grit carborundum paste and very carefully with the lathe running at its lowest speed, I manually worked the cylinder onto the rotating cast iron. This is very dangerous, and you want to be prepared to immediately let go of the cylinder if it "grabs" and starts to turn with the cast iron. By letting the 2" long cylinder move to the very limit of the turned cast iron and then sliding it back and forth, this  resulted in the full length of the bore being lapped to size, and guarantees that the parted off pistons from the cast iron will be lapped to the correct outer diameter.


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## CFLBob (Feb 24, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> ....This is very dangerous, and you want to be prepared to immediately let go of the cylinder if it "grabs" and starts to turn with the cast iron. By letting the 2" long cylinder move to the very limit of the turned cast iron and then sliding it back and forth, this  resulted in the full length of the bore being lapped to size, and guarantees that the parted off pistons from the cast iron will be lapped to the correct outer diameter.



I learned that on my Little Machine Shop engine, trying to lap the cylinder, with simichrome aluminum polish.  It took a day to separate them again.  

May I ask where you bought the cast iron, as in local vs. online?   I'm looking for new suppliers.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2018)

I buy all of my material at a local machine shop.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2018)

Mechanically, the engine is finished. I will endeavour to build the alcohol burner this coming week, and then see how much is involved with actually getting the engine to run.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJYLv-NUWR8&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## el gringo (Feb 24, 2018)

cfl
I am getting my graphite and 6061 aluminum @ Amazon, good quality and price (free shipping) versus my past suppler. I hven't looked there for cast iron. The last I bought was from Speedy Metals arm and leg for shipping.


Ray M


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## el gringo (Feb 24, 2018)

CFLBob said:


> I learned that on my Little Machine Shop engine,  trying to lap the cylinder, with simichrome aluminum polish.  It took a  day to separate them again.
> I am not familiar with the Little Machine Shop engine. Where can I find it?
> Ray M


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## el gringo (Feb 24, 2018)

RLUKINS,

The finger factor needs to pass the smell test
Ray M


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## Ghosty (Feb 24, 2018)

el gringo said:


> CFLBob said:
> 
> 
> > I learned that on my Little Machine Shop engine, trying to lap the cylinder, with simichrome aluminum polish. It took a day to separate them again.
> ...


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## CFLBob (Feb 24, 2018)

el gringo said:


> CFLBob said:
> 
> 
> > I learned that on my Little Machine Shop engine,  trying to lap the cylinder, with simichrome aluminum polish.  It took a  day to separate them again.
> ...


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2018)

-I oiled everything up because turning this thing over by hand you could feel the "roughness" of bare metal scraping on bare metal. I am sure that the oil will add some "stiction" and perhaps prevent the engine from running. I have half a mind to hook an external drive to the flywheel and let it run with oil on everything for a couple of hours just to wear down any "high spots", then flush all the oil away with laquer thinners.


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## Cogsy (Feb 24, 2018)

It's looking good Brian, though it does seem like it might be a little stiff in the video. It's hard to tell, but it looks to me like the valve has a bit more possible movement towards the bottom of the bore. When you develop a vacuum it will be less work to pull the valve down the bore than pull the piston up, so the valve will travel as far down the bore as it can. This will cost you a little vacuum power there, then you have to expend more driving it back up the bore the extra distance to open it as well. Yours might be fine but mine was so lacking in power that I had to chase every small piece of power loss and friction I could just to get it to run and tuning the valve helped me a lot. Good luck with the starting attemps (warning: frustration ahead!!).


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## el gringo (Feb 25, 2018)

"I oiled everything up because turning this thing over by hand you could  feel the "roughness" of bare metal scraping on bare metal."
Another possibility might be if you didn't maintain  the 90 degrees  of the centerline of the cylinder to the main shaft when you slotted the mount holes to center it. 

Ray   M


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## el gringo (Feb 25, 2018)

This is off message but it makes me wonder why we worry about close fits and safety...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc14jBSlD64[/ame]


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## Journeyman (Feb 25, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> -I oiled everything up because turning this thing over by hand you could feel the "roughness" of bare metal scraping on bare metal. I am sure that the oil will add some "stiction" and perhaps prevent the engine from running. I have half a mind to hook an external drive to the flywheel and let it run with oil on everything for a couple of hours just to wear down any "high spots", then flush all the oil away with laquer thinners.


Brian, the engine needs to be very free running. Any oil left in the cylinder will burn and gum everything up. Jan Ridders says that it should spin easily and I quote from his website:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some              friction tests with cold engine and without the flame:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]           - Push the flywheel            firmly by hand;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]            - The flywheel disconnected from the piston rod must keep running for 1.5 to 2            minutes;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]           - With only the piston connected the flywheel must keep on running            for 15 to 20 seconds;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]            - With piston, internal valve and pushing rod connected the engine must keep running            for 5 to8 seconds."[/FONT]​[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I never got mine to be as free as that but it still worked, just!
John
[/FONT]


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## rlukens (Feb 25, 2018)

"Another possibility might be if you didn't maintain  the 90 degrees  of the centerline of the cylinder to the main shaft when you slotted the mount holes to center it" ... Ray M.

I too asked that question. I think Brian solved that problem by checking alignment at both ends of the crank throw... assuring parallelism.


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## rlukens (Feb 25, 2018)

Brian, 
I'm following this because my next project will be similar. I've read multiple times that these little engines can be a ***** to get running. I'm anxious to see how yours goes. You've certainly optimized every detail. 
Good luck.
Russ


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2018)

And here we have a video of "running in" the engine. Even though the crankshaft and big end of the con-rod are riding on ball bearings, there is more "drag" than I like caused by the piston sliding in the cylinder (a lapped fit) and the valve rod sliding in it's drilled hole. I have coated everything with oil and will let it run for an hour, then put the entire engine in a solvent bath to wash out any oil and/or metallic residue. It is running very slowly in the video, I doubled the speed after it had ran for a few minutes.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NeaicL1dQc&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## CFLBob (Feb 25, 2018)

el gringo said:


> This is off message but it makes me wonder why we worry about close fits and safety...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc14jBSlD64



I've gotta say this is impressive at first glance.  You'd think that, if anything, we'd be able to make something that runs much better with our more accurate tools and methods than a guy like this who seems to be eyeballing just about everything.  

It's not comparing apples to apples.  

The difference is that his system doesn't depend on compression and pressure, that "piston" is just a slip fit because the solenoid's magnetic field is doing all the work.  If his piston is too loose, he doesn't lose compression and power; he doesn't lose the magnetic field's pull or push.  It probably runs better if it's loose.  All he's doing is getting something to run with an electric field.  Depending on the amount of current the coil is sucking, it could be horribly inefficient but still spin the "flywheel" (ball bearings soaked in epoxy!  who would have thought of that?)


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2018)

Okay--the hour is up, and I just pulled the set-up apart. The engine turns amazingly free now compared to what it did before running it in. Won't have much to report now until I get the alcohol burner built.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2018)

Before I build the alcohol burner, I have to source a wick. The diameter of the metal barrel that comes out of the top of the burner depends on what wick you use. On Jan Ridders plans the inside diameter of this pipe is 7 mm which is just a bit larger than 1/4". The only wick I can buy in Barrie is for Tiki torches and is 1/2" diameter.  I just ordered a ten foot length of 1/4" wick from Ebay, and I think its coming from China---they give mid March as a delivery date. This doesn't make me overly happy, but  I don't seem to have a lot of options. I may just go ahead and make the alcohol burner and leave the pipe solid, then drill it out to size when I have the wick here in my hands.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 25, 2018)

Jan Ridders plans show a very nice little alcohol burner fabricated by soldering a number of pieces of 1 mm and 2 mm thick brass together. I happen to have a short piece of 1 1/2" square mild steel here that is just long enough to form the tank body and bottom plate from, and I can solder a separate piece of brass to the top to make a burner that will do for me. Since the tank body will then be made of steel, I can put a magnet size counterbore in the top of the engines aluminum baseplate and epoxy a strong magnet in place. That will prevent the tank from hopping around while the engine is running. (I'm an optimist.)


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## ThomasSK (Feb 25, 2018)

For the wick, try regular cotton yarn or even cotton rope like used on boats.


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## gartof (Feb 25, 2018)

Brian
Try a fabric or upholstery supply shop they should have a selection of cotton cord for making piping in upholstery.
Gary


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## el gringo (Feb 25, 2018)

The wick I use on my  'little blazer' is  a rolled up piece of an old cotton t-shirt...works fine.
Ray M


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## Cogsy (Feb 26, 2018)

For mine I pulled some regular cotton balls (I think the wife has them for removing makeup, they roughly look marshmallow sized) into longish strands, then twisted them into strands. Then I braided/plaited three of them into a wick. Works perfectly and I've never had to replace it.


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## werowance (Feb 26, 2018)

what about oil lamp wick  the flat type rolled up?  Wal-Mart sales it.  so does the local farm supply store nearby.  or don't know if the diameter is right but zippo lighter wick.  you can buy it at any tobacco shop that might be near by.  (this in USA don't know about other parts of the world)


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## sonex569 (Feb 26, 2018)

I have heard of guys using a short length of wire cable. Wicks the same and doesn't burn.


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## werowance (Feb 26, 2018)

Brian,  I realize you want us to wait until the plans are ready and for sale,  but in the mean time.  to give me something fun to do when I get home,  can I ask what the rough dimensions are for the base you used?  ill start rummaging through my scrap box's to find some suitable stock so that when it the plans are ready and for sale ill at least have some materials available.    and will give me some time in the shop tonight.  (my peace and quite happy place)


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 26, 2018)

I had some "real" work at my office across town today, but before I went I degreased/de-oiled the engine and tried firing it with my propane torch. It didn't take off and run on it's own, but it did give some very heartening effort. It tried to run, which thrilled me all to pieces, but then I had to leave and go earn some money.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 26, 2018)

For Werowance


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## werowance (Feb 27, 2018)

Thanks Brian.  ill start digging through my bin tonight.

wonder if the propane torch was to concentrated?  not allowing the flame to be sucked in and blown backwards?    what about a zippo lighter in the mean time?  just gussing here.  never ran one of these before.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2018)

And away we go with fabrication of an alcohol tank!!


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2018)

Alcohol tank--take-2--and that finishes the steel part of the tank. Next up will be the brass tank top, screw on lid, and wick holder.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2018)

One more silver soldered joint and some polishing and we should have a finished tank.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2018)

And Hey presto!! We have a finished tank. Now all I need is my wick. Tomorrow I will counterbore the top of the base for a rare earth magnet and  J.B. Weld it into place, so that when I get the tank positioned properly it won't bounce around when the engine is running.--And now you know how I've spent my day.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 28, 2018)

This mornings work was to put a 0.140" deep counterbore into the aluminum baseplate and J.B.Weld a powerful magnet into place. This will keep the alcohol burner from jumping around while the engine is running. And now I am completely stymied because I don't have a wick. I have a 1/4" wick on order from ebay but it won't be here until mid March. I have called every model shop, upholstery shop, scientific supply shop, and coffee maker supply shop in Barrie, and nobody has 1/4" cotton rope.


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## sonex569 (Feb 28, 2018)

You might try three or four twisted up pipe cleaners cut to length. Worked for me!!


Regards


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 28, 2018)

The wick issue has been resolved for the moment. I found a fabric shop about one mile from where I live that sells natural cotton rope in either 6mm diameter (which is slightly to small) and 8 mm (which is slightly too big).--I have a 1/4" hole in my wick tube, which translates to 6.35mm.  I will make one of them work. I also went to the pharmacy and bought a bottle of isopropyl alcohol, which is a 70% solution. I asked the pharmacist if it was available in 95% and he said yes it was, but he would have to order a small bottle for me, and it will be here tomorrow.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 28, 2018)

Well, we have an alcohol burner. I used the 8 mm rope and managed to squeeze it through my 1/4" tube, filled the body with alcohol, dribbled a bit of alcohol on the fuse to make sure it was saturated, then lit it. The good news is that it didn't explode. The bad new is----well I'm not really sure at this point if there is any bad news or not. It flamed up quite large when it was first lit, probably because of the extra alcohol I had dribbled onto the wick before lighting it. After about two minutes, the flame died down to a much more sedate pace. I'm just going to let it burn until it goes out.--I can't do anything on the engine today, because it will take 24 hours for the J.B.weld holding that magnet in place to cure.


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## Foozer (Feb 28, 2018)

For my little test tube sterling I use the Yellow Bottle HEET gas additive . . Good flame, no soot . . .
Methyl Alcohol.>>


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## Cogsy (Mar 1, 2018)

The 70% will probably not work. Here in Australia we can buy Methylated Spirits in any hardware store for a very small amount (maybe $5 a litre I'd guess) and it's 95% alcohol. I assumed it was available virtually worldwide. You definitely don't need expensive medical grade alcohol.

From the picture it looks like the wick is burnt black - my wicks have remained almost completely unburnt unless I run them low on fuel. Also, that flame is quite yellow, it might be just an artefact of the picture but it should be burning a bit more blue than yellow. Here's a video showing the flame on mine.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsqjzybN9Pc[/ame]


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 1, 2018)

No luck today with the 70% alcohol. Engine refused to run on it. I do have some "real" work today, so haven't had much time to play with the engine. I don't think that 8 mm diameter cotton rope is going to do for a wick either. I have to jam it in so tight to get it down the 1/4" wick hole that it interferes with the wicking action. I called the pharmacy about my 95% alcohol that was supposed to come today, and somehow they have lost it--I'm waiting on a phone call. The magnet I have J.B. welded into the engine base does a great job of holding the alcohol tank in place. If I get my 95% alcohol I will try it with the 6 mm cotton rope wick.


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## werowance (Mar 1, 2018)

was talking to a friend about it,  he mentioned windshield washer fluid in concentrate form.  I think pre mixed is almost 50 methanol and 50 water, fudge that a little to account for the blue dye in it.  so wonder what concentrate would be?


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 1, 2018)

I found an hour to play today, so removed the 8 mm rope wick and installed the 6 mm rope wick instead. Now I find that when I flip the engine over by hand to see if it will start, it blows out the flame.--Consistently. I assume that the 95% alcohol will be more apt to stay lit, than the 70% that I currently have. The engine still acts as if it may actually run, but certainly not with the flame going out so easily.


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## bmac2 (Mar 1, 2018)

Hi Brian
For wicks I find Canadian Tire and Cabelas have a good selection. I buy 99.9% alcohol at Superstore (Loblaws). Its behind the counter so just ask the pharmacist.


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## el gringo (Mar 1, 2018)

I have found the problem of the flame blowing out is usually caused by improper
 functioning of the valve and or cold start issues
Rat M


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## johnny1320 (Mar 2, 2018)

Try home depot paint section methyl hydrate is 100% methanol alcohol


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2018)

No joy--I hunted around on my shelf of 10,000 things and found a small unopened can of Methyl Hydrate. This gives a much larger, hotter flame that doesn't blow out. Engine likes it, tries to run, but can't quite get there. I tried a little WD40 on the bearings, which does make it spin more freely, but it won't keep running. There really isn't anything on this engine to adjust, other than moving the alcohol reservoir around to reposition the flame. I have one more thing to try, and then I guess if it doesn't run I will try a graphite piston and valve.


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## CFLBob (Mar 2, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> No joy--I hunted around on my shelf of 10,000 things and found a small unopened can of Methyl Hydrate. This gives a much larger, hotter flame that doesn't blow out. Engine likes it, tries to run, but can't quite get there. I tried a little WD40 on the bearings, which does make it spin more freely, but it won't keep running. There really isn't anything on this engine to adjust, other than moving the alcohol reservoir around to reposition the flame. I have one more thing to try, and then I guess if it doesn't run I will try a graphite piston and valve.



As I'm starting to make the first pieces for my Duclos engine, and I follow every post to this thread, I find this a little discouraging.  

On the other hand, I've watched a lot of videos of flame eater engines running and almost every video includes time spent trying to get it to run.  They seem to be really fussy about where the flame is and how big it is.  (I can almost imagine the early experimenters saying, "if only we could figure out how to get that combustion inside the engine")

Rather than make a graphite piston, I think Ridders is the guy who said to sprinkle graphite powder (shavings?) inside the cylinder as lubrication.  They sell that as lock lubricant.  Maybe whittle back the wood on a soft pencil and color the walls of the cylinder?  

Here's hoping you get it running.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2018)

Allright!!!--I've done everything that I know how to do, and the engine doesn't run. It is machined to spec, it turns over freely, and I have tried 95% alcohol as fuel. There isn't really anything more to try. So---I just ordered a one foot length of machinable graphite from some outfit in Illinois. I'm a bit disappointed, but the fat lady hasn't sang yet.


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## werowance (Mar 2, 2018)

Brian, do you have a video of you trying it on the better alcohol by chance?  or are you to the point of step away and take a breather don't talk about it right now? :hDe:?   I'm just curious to see and compare the flame to all the others I have watched


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2018)

Werowance---Here ya go---
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPiwXM4xSvM&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2018)

Here is a video which shows how "free wheeling" the mechanism is.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSu-PGZnQkI&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## werowance (Mar 2, 2018)

Thanks Brian, It looks like you have it in the right position according to all I can see on line.  the only thing I see is the color and length of your flame seems to be different than what I'm seeing on other runners.  I don't know.  I was just hoping something would jump out at me or maybe someone else will watch the video and see whats wrong.

just incase I screen shotted proper wick position - yours appears to be right, a running engines flame and color,  your engines flame and color.


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## werowance (Mar 2, 2018)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Here is a video which shows how "free wheeling" the mechanism is.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSu-PGZnQkI&feature=youtu.be


 
ok, on this video,  forgive me if you say this already in your video, I'm at work and cant turn up the sound,  but Jans troubleshooting steps state:
freewheel flywheel only should spin about 2 mins
flywheel and piston together should run 15 to 20 seconds
and full assembly should spin about 8 to 10 seconds.  in your video I'm only getting about 4 Mississippi's of spin time (that means 4 seconds   )

how long does fly wheel alone spin?  2 mins seems awefuly long but I double checked and he does state mins no seconds on that part


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2018)

Without the con rod in place mine will spin for close to two minutes.


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## werowance (Mar 2, 2018)

one more thought,  i know i mentioned this earlier on in the build.  but if you run flywheel and piston only,  remove valve and pushrod,  about how many seconds of run time do you get?  I'm thinking pushrod friction, where i see a lot of folks are putting in a bushing on both ends so the rod only has about 1 or 2 mm of rub firction spots on each end instead of the rod having the entire length of the cylinder to lay on the bottom and rub the full length.


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## el gringo (Mar 2, 2018)

Brian, 
The video looks like a problem with the valve fit or timing.
In any event these videos might help with wick positioning, proximity to the port etc.
Your wick seems to be a bit high.
pss... do you have a vent in the fuel tank?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCgPwKgbBM[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0gNU0LVUvk[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfGUDEkPU18[/ame]

I'm using denatured alcohol, AKA methyl spirits

Ray M


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## el gringo (Mar 2, 2018)

I can't make any thing spin for 1 minute let alone 2 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0DCyjwoFTs[/ame]


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## Cogsy (Mar 2, 2018)

The spin test looks a lot like mine did when I built it, so I assume it will work with that. To my eye, the flame does still look a bit on the yellow side, but with the blue section at the bottom I would think it may work as well.

Looking at the flame position, the wick may be a little high, leaving the very bottom of the port lacking enough flame. It's hard to tell how you have it set up from the video, but I have the wick touching the cylinder, slightly forward of the port for best running. Even then, a 1-2mm adjustment can mean the difference between running and not running. I, quite literally, made my arm sore over several days, and remade the piston/valve several times (thinking, as you do, that fit was the problem), before I got it fine tuned enough to run. As version 1 of this engine ran with cast iron piston and valve at only 18mm diameter, it should run for you with cast iron as well. I feel your pain, it's very frustrating, but if you keep at it, it will run!!


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## Blogwitch (Mar 3, 2018)

Look where this wick sits, it almost covers the inlet hole. Forget about moving the reservoir about, get a bit of thin rod and move just the wick into position over the hole. Eventually you will find the sweet spot and it will start to kick. 

You do need to warm the cylinder up first, I gave mine a dose of plumbers torch for about 30 seconds then left it about the same time to soak through the metal cylinder. Only then can you start to adjust the wick to get it to run. No lubrication at all as all it will do is gum up the works. 

This is with a glass wick and methylated spirits and a cast iron piston. It will run on gas but it soon clogs everything up with soot.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF9bvnobZ0k[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyrWRBoC-2c[/ame]

John


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## el gringo (Mar 3, 2018)

It also seems with mine that after running in/ there is no need to preheat...wonder if it has to do with the graphite piston????
I sure like the sound of the twins.

Ray M


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## mirek111 (Mar 3, 2018)

I have a graphite piston
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_JJigmCPZA[/ame]


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 3, 2018)

Mirek111--that is a beauty.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 4, 2018)

I must have got up on the right side of the bed this morning, because today I have a runner. The only thing different from my previous attempts to make this engine run is that I squirted some WD40 into the cylinder before I tried to run it. I am using methyl hydrate (gasline anti-freeze) for fuel. Nothing has been changed mechanically since I finished the engine earlier this week. I have a stick of machinable graphite on order to make a new valve and piston from, which will replace the current cast iron piston and valve. Oh, I am so happy. There is nothing worse than building an engine and knowing that you've done everything right, and then the engine won't run!!---Brian
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI774Sg3AwE&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 4, 2018)

Okay--Now that I have a runner (Hooray-Hooray), all of those who contacted me about buying the plans in imperial (inch) format, now is the time. Keep in mind--this engine was designed by Jan Ridders in metric. All I have done is convert everything to inch sizes including fasteners and stock material sizes. I will sell complete plans and material lists in Inch format for $25 Canadian funds. You are not buying a Brian Rupnow original design.  Contact me with your real email address, and send whatever translates to $25 Canadian currency to my paypal account at [email protected] and I will send you all of the engineering drawings as .pdf files.


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## el gringo (Mar 4, 2018)

_*Congrats*_ Brian...We were holding our breath.
Ray M


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## Sleddog (Mar 4, 2018)

Well done Brian. I knew you'd 'Lickit'


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## Johno1958 (Mar 4, 2018)

Nice one Brian 
Flame licker's have a wonderful sound to them.
John


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## ShopShoe (Mar 5, 2018)

Congratulations Brian,

I do love the sound of that engine.

Thank you for sharing the build.

--ShopShoe


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## werowance (Mar 5, 2018)

congratulations Brian.  paypal sent


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## Cogsy (Mar 6, 2018)

Congrats Brian - that didn't take you long at all!


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2018)

Brian, I have been looking at the plans from the photos in the post and I see that it says to ream the 7/8 cylinder hole.  since I don't have a 7/8 reamer and don't have o1 large enough to make a dbit reamer,  would boring with the largest boring tool that will fit the hole for rigidity work ok?  considering its going to be honed and then lapped?

also I have some 303 stainless that should be large enough,  do you think 303 would be ok for the cylinder?   and lastly do you have more photos of you machining the flywheel in the lathe?  I have a large chuck of new to me bronze that I will have to saw down get it in there but wanted to see how you started out holding it.  was it sawn to just about the right thickness then chucked from the outside, make once side then flip and chuck to the center snout on the flywheel to get the outside and the other face?


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 6, 2018)

You can bore the hole. Just use the largest drill you have that is under 7/8" diameter then bore to finished size. I used 316 stainless because it is truly rust proof. You can use 303, it won't really make any difference. I have no more pictures of machining the flywheel, but you have the right idea.


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2018)

thanks Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 7, 2018)

Who is Raymond Monohan? He just set me $25 by Paypal and I have no idea of who he is or what engine plan he wants.---nevermind--I got it sorted out.


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## werowance (Mar 7, 2018)

Brian, can I ask where you got your bearings from? and do you by chance have any part numbers?


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 7, 2018)

werowance said:


> Brian, can I ask where you got your bearings from? and do you by chance have any part numbers?


See post #41. Two bearings are #6882RS. I just called Canadian Bearings where I bought mine to get the other part number which you can't see on the box and who the manufacturer was. I will post it as soon as I get it.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 7, 2018)

THE bearings I used were #693-2Z and  688-2RS from KML. They were wider than I initially planned on, but the detail drawings have been altered to accommodate the wider bearings. I will update my bearing information in the drawings.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 8, 2018)

I had to go out for an hour this morning.--Wouldn't you know it, when I got back, there was a note on my door from FedEx, saying that no-one was home to receive the shipment, but they would try again tomorrow!!! I'm thinking that is my stick of machinable graphite.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 9, 2018)

My machineable graphite came in this morning, so I immediately took it into the machine-shop and made a piston and a valve. It is incredibly filthy stuff, as the picture testifies, but machines very easy. Everything I had read about machineable graphite recommends using carbide tooling to cut it, and maybe for a great deal of machining this may be so. For the little bit of machining I had to do, HSS tooling worked fine.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 9, 2018)

Things are reassembled with the machineable graphite valve and piston. I hate to say it, but the engine is no different now than it was with the cast iron valve and piston. It spins very freely, it acts as if it wants to run, but it is very difficult to find that "sweet spot" where it will pick up and keep on running by itself. I know that if you do find that "sweet spot" the engine will set there and tick over beautifully for about 20 minutes until the cylinder heats up to a point where there isn't enough temperature differential to keep it running. I may dick around a bit with different fuels, but unless changing to a hotter fuel does something remarkable, I'm done with this engine.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 11, 2018)

I've been thinking--which is probably a dangerous thing. I made my cylinder from 316 stainless to prevent any rust buildup inside the cylinder. (alcohol releases water when it burns). These flame licker engines depend on the heat differential between the flame they suck in and the cooler temperature of the cylinder to cool off the flame and create a vacuum. Someone pointed out that the thermal conductivity of stainless is only about 1/3 of the thermal conductivity of cast iron. I wonder if the poor performance of this engine could be caused by the cylinder material?--And yet Jan Ridders specifies stainless for the cylinder.


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## el gringo (Mar 11, 2018)

I get very good performance with my gulpers using aluminum cyls and graphite pistons (see videos). When I build the Ridders engine I will use same. 
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 11, 2018)

I want a dependable flame eater style engine. I modelled Mr. Senfts "poppin" engine today---


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## Cogsy (Mar 12, 2018)

Mine is aluminium cylinder and graphite piston. The performance looks about the same as yours Brian, but it heats up very fast and only gives maybe 5-7 minute running time before it gets too hot to operate.


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## werowance (Mar 13, 2018)

Brian,  on the graphite, just wondering did you use locktight on the piston rod where it screws into the graphite? if so wondering how well it stuck to the graphite?   never dealt with graphite but I figured it would be like trying to use elmers glue on Teflon....it just doesn't stick.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 13, 2018)

Yes, I did use Loctite. Loctite will hold fine in that application because there are no forces trying to turn the valve or the cylinder.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 13, 2018)

...----------------------


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## werowance (Mar 15, 2018)

Brian, the cutout on the base for the burner,  in your opinion do you think it is necessary?  even if you did not have the magnet would you think so? or is it more for looks?  I know Jans plans had it there but wondered if it really helped keep the flame where it needs to be


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 15, 2018)

You need the cut out in the base in order to get the burner down low enough.


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