# Money to spend on inserts and holder for lathe



## Brian Rupnow (Nov 17, 2021)

My last design contract is finished and I have a little money to spend. I want to know a "top of the line" carbide inserts and holder to fit my quick change toolpost on my 12' x 28" lathe. I have tried the HSS inserts and holder from Arthur Warner, and although they work very well, they dull very quickly. They can be sharpened about 15 times before they are "done". I have tried another set of carbides and holders from  Shars, but they too didn't seem to stand up very well. 95% of my lathe work is on mild steel or cold rolled steel less than 1 1/2" diameter, the remaining 5% is aluminum and very little brass.  I have a bunch of brazed carbide tools that I was given, and I use them a fair amount. My general turning speed is 500 to 600 rpm. Probable about 1/4 of my work involves interrupted cuts.  I see many guys using diamond shaped carbide inserts, and  they have only two cutting points that can be used, but because of their shape they can get into tight places. I see other guys using triangular shaped inserts, which gives 3 available cutting edges, which seems more economical because you get three cutting "points" rather than the two cutting points you get from a diamond shaped carbide. I use my lathe a lot. Can somebody make a recommendation for tools that can be bought in North America. I am a bit lost in this quest, and would appreciate any advice from people who have used this tooling.----Brian rupnow


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## dnalot (Nov 17, 2021)

I have been using the "economy insert holders" from McMaster Carr and their line of inserts. I have been happy with them but then I have no experience with anything else. 

Mark T


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## Vietti (Nov 17, 2021)

Take a look at Banggood  stuff.  Just used a threading insert tool yesterday, worked great as usual.  Their small cutoff tool and insert is particularly good.  Pennies on the dollar compared to others.


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## xpylonracer (Nov 18, 2021)

Brian

Some info about insert shape and designation at this link to help you decide:








						Turning inserts
					






					www.jbcuttingtools.com
				




I tend to keep with the polished type inserts for most work as like you I don't drive my lathe hard, fairly low
speeds and light DOC.

Details of the insert numbers and description of inserts can be found here:








						General Turning Insert Nomenclature for CNC Dummies - Helman CNC
					

General turning inserts come in variety of shapes and sizes. One thing is important to remember and understand is that every turning insert has a nomenclature associated with it




					www.helmancnc.com


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## ShopShoe (Nov 18, 2021)

Brian,

I suggest you check out KBC tools.

www.kbctools.com

In my opinion they are a good source for cutting tools of all types. Their descriptions of the carbide holders they sell and inserts are very good and all dimensions are clearly noted. 
they have branches in Canada as well in the. U.S.  I have talked to people there who are happy to help, even with small purchases. (Usual disclaimer, only a customer and no ties to them.)

In my own experience, with 5/16 and 3/8 shank tooling on my lathe, I have experimented with different insert systems and geometries and find they can work well under the right conditions. I don't know about the interrupted cuts, as I usually use HSS for that. (My understanding is that carbides are brittle and fracture more easily, thus I use HSS for interrupted cuts.)

I have purchased several different types of inserts and have decided that If I use them, I need more than one type. I started with the triangular inserts with chipbreakers (T**), I got some of the narrow parallelogram type (V***) for better reach (I bought the inserts and made holders for them.) I am presently intermittantly using CCMT inserts in both a lathe tool and a boring bar (reduces the  types I need to keep on hand.) With CCMT, my attempt on the lathe was to find a setup that would result in moving from straight L-R cutting to facing without having to re-index the cutting angle. This goes along with having my QCTP set for cutting as above, then having a toolholder swap with a chamfering tool without a re-index as well.

What I have not done with carbide is parting and threading, although I am considering a carbide-insert system for cutting small threads.

Returning to the Carbide vs. HSS discussion, I have confirmed the advice I have seen that Carbides need deeper cuts and steady pressure to work well instead of the smaller, shallower cuts that HSS is good with. (In other words, carbide probably not good with the "spring pass"). Your larger lathe would probably work better with carbides than my small lathe, if you were taking off large amounts.

--ShopShoe


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## stanstocker (Nov 18, 2021)

Hi Brian,

KBC tool in Canada has a fair amount of inserts.  In the US they are a reputable supplier, so odds are they are in Canada as well.

If you happen to have a means of taking delivery at a US address, latheinserts.com is a good supplier.  Only better to high grade products, not a "quality import" sort of place.  Everything ever purchased from them has been excellent.  Sadly they don't ship to Canada.

Carbide Depot is also a good supplier, but they charge UPS $50 to ship to Canada before added charges.  You folks in the great white north really get hosed by shipping from the US from what I've heard.

A good carbide nomenclature chart is here:






						Insert Designation Chart - provides ANSI and ISO designation code definitions for carbide insert shapes, relief angles, tolerances, chipbreaker codes, hole types, size values, thickness values, radius values, wiper lead angle, wiper clearance angle, 
					

Carbide Insert Designation Chart



					www.carbidedepot.com
				




As you've already found, ignore the amazon 10 for $25 "first top rate to be cutting your metal much we like" garbage, just wasted money.  Some reputable vendors do have quite good house branded inserts, I've gotten Kyocera, Iscar and other top quality inserts in OEM packaging with the house brand sticker partially covering the makers own labels.

If your Warner tool holders take the diamond inserts (CCMTxxxx) treat yourself to some good inserts and try them out.  Good inserts last MUCH longer than cheap ones, the cost of changing tool holders to get one more tip may not be worth it.

If you already have triangular insert toolholders you're half way there.  You need positive rake inserts (TCMT, TPxxxxxx) for steel to work well.  The insert size is measured in 1/8's of an inch diameter of an inscribed circle, so a TCMT321 will have it's straight edges tangent to a 3/8 inch circle centered around the mounting screw.  The second digit is thickness in 1/16s of an inch, almost always a "2" in these size inserts.  The last digit is the tip radius in 0.016 inch increments.  A TPG321 or a TCMT321 will have a 0.016 inch tip radius.  Just as in HSS tools you grind, the larger the radius the longer the tip tends to last and the smoother the finish but the less tight the corners and the more spindle power needed for a significant depth of cut.

There is also an ANSI/ISO nomenclature that has 4 digits and a decimal.  Same basic deal - a TCMT32.51 insert is the same as a 321 EXCEPT the thickness is 0.156 inch.  Not a big deal, but it does change the cutting edge height when mounted in the lathe.  Try not to have both thicknesses in stock, it sucks to replace a worn insert and not notice the new insert is either high or low by 30 thou.  Done it, took a moment or two to realize what was going on.

The AR Warner tooling is nice, when most of my work was in brass I loved the fact that their inserts could be polished and had zero rake.  In steel the use of small positive rake inserts such as CCMT221 or CCMT21.51 diamond and TPG221 triangular inserts improved finish quality noticeably over the zero rake inserts.

If you have lower cost indexed tool holders, look carefully at the insert pocket and see that it is truly flat and the corner(s) are relieved so the insert sits solidly.  Lap/hone/use method of choice to make the pocket floor flat if needed.  A rocking insert is a chattering broken insert.  Really high end holders often come with a carbide anvil the insert sits on, but most of us don't spend that sort of money on our tool holders.

I'm guessing you already know that carbide hates to scrape and hates thermal shock.  Cut hard, cut deep, cut to size, and don't spritz on a little cold coolant or thin oil now and then.  Cut wet or cut dry, once it's at a blue chip heat hitting the cutter with cold liquid will likely either crack it or fracture the edge at a minimum.  A 0.002 inch depth of cut and a tentative feed rate will give poor finish and high wear on the insert.  It's OK once in a while if you must, but the real deal is to have most of the heat of cutting leaving with the chips, not hanging around in dust.

Hope this is of some help,
Stan


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## grahamgollar (Nov 19, 2021)

I guess you won't wish to buy via the UK but it's worth looking at the Cutwell site on the old interweb: Lathe Tools/ISO Turning Inserts, Tool Holders & Boring Bars | Cutwel - Lathe Tool Specialist Cutwel Ltd . Their literature is very informative regarding tool nomenclature, sizes and applications etc and helps you (hopefully) to chose the correct insert from the bewildering plethora of alternatives available nowadays. They market mainly Korloy and YG inserts (you'll have to imagine the TM marker here!) which are probably available in your distant climes.

Graham


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## grahamgollar (Nov 19, 2021)

That web address didn't print true, here's the correct one:





						Lathe Tools/ISO Turning Inserts, Tool Holders & Boring Bars | Cutwel - Lathe Tool Specialist
					

Shop online today for ISO Turning Inserts, Tool Holders & Boring Bars. We have a range of turning inserts & holders in all common shapes & sizes. UK next day delivery!




					www.cutwel.co.uk


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## Chiptosser (Nov 19, 2021)

Brian, Have you looked into Sandvik holders and inserts?
These are what I use on my small lathe Delta, and my large lathe Colchester 17x80.
I have bought holders and inserts off the Bay,  They are very durable, the inserts have chip breaking geometry designed into the insert. There are many different insert designs in the different insert shapes and nose radius's.  Cheap and quality doesn't go hand in hand.  There are also Seco, good products.


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## animal12 (Nov 20, 2021)

I have one of the 5 piece 3/8's turning set from AR Warner which I love . Still on my original inserts & have the unused spare insert that comes with the set after @ 5-6 years . When I asked them about using carbide on their holders they told me to get TPMT carbide inserts . I haven't made the jump tp carbide yet cause I haven't had time to frame in a machine room in our new place & my South Bend maxes out @ 1200-1500 rpm . So going on what they told me you can start without not buying any tool holders since you already have some  . I would like to get one with inserts on both ends , so I can turn & the swat the tool holder & chamfer the part with the same tool holder . Keep us posted on what you end up with .
animal


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## Jasonb (Nov 21, 2021)

Brian if you want to get the most use out of inserts then you can buy holders that use the two "spare" corners of the common CCMT and CCGT inserts as well as boring bar holders so one shape insert will do most jobs and just throw in a holder for DCMT / DCGT for fine work like valve stems


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 10, 2021)

Okay---To bring this thread up to date---this is what I bought. It seems to work very well for what I do and the carbide hasn't chipped nor broken on interrupted cuts. I can take 0.020" depth of cut in cold rolled steel, and it doesn't seem to mind a bit.  I bought the toolholder with a 1/2" square shank and didn't realize until it got here that my quick change toolpost would only work with 3/8" square tooling. In order to get the carbide down to the lathes centerline I had to remove 0.125" from the bottom of one tool holder, but that's okay, that toolholder is dedicated to this particular tool. It wasn't cheap, I think I paid close to $170 Canadian for the tool and five inserts. Each insert has three points, so I hope to get a good long life from this.


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## Charles Lamont (Dec 11, 2021)

I have not read this thread until now, and I am a little surprised nobody has commented on this in Brian's OP: "My general turning speed is 500 to 600 rpm."

Brian, if you, the lathe, the tool, and the workpiece seem to like that, I am not going to argue. But I would like a bit more detail. Do you not select a cutting speed at least with an eye to size and material?


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## trlvn (Dec 11, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> $170 Canadian for the tool and five inserts


Where did you purchase these?

What convinced you to go with the triangular shape as opposed to, say, diamond shape?

Craig


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2021)

I bought them from Travers in Canada. I went with the 3 cornered insert because you get one more cutting edge than with a diamond shaped insert.


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## SmithDoor (Dec 11, 2021)

I Used inserts for about 20 years and switch back to grinding high speed steel. Still have a drawer full inserts.

I found I could get better job out of a grinding the tool for job.

Dave 



Brian Rupnow said:


> My last design contract is finished and I have a little money to spend. I want to know a "top of the line" carbide inserts and holder to fit my quick change toolpost on my 12' x 28" lathe. I have tried the HSS inserts and holder from Arthur Warner, and although they work very well, they dull very quickly. They can be sharpened about 15 times before they are "done". I have tried another set of carbides and holders from  Shars, but they too didn't seem to stand up very well. 95% of my lathe work is on mild steel or cold rolled steel less than 1 1/2" diameter, the remaining 5% is aluminum and very little brass.  I have a bunch of brazed carbide tools that I was given, and I use them a fair amount. My general turning speed is 500 to 600 rpm. Probable about 1/4 of my work involves interrupted cuts.  I see many guys using diamond shaped carbide inserts, and  they have only two cutting points that can be used, but because of their shape they can get into tight places. I see other guys using triangular shaped inserts, which gives 3 available cutting edges, which seems more economical because you get three cutting "points" rather than the two cutting points you get from a diamond shaped carbide. I use my lathe a lot. Can somebody make a recommendation for tools that can be bought in North America. I am a bit lost in this quest, and would appreciate any advice from people who have used this tooling.----Brian rupnow


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## abby (Dec 11, 2021)

Although I have a set of insert tools for my Boxford lathe I really don't rate carbide tooling for model work , except perhaps for roughing out. I use good quality HSS , mine was all produced in the UK many years ago.
It can be sharpened to a razor edge with a diamond hone and can remove a whisker half a thou thick when used in my Pultra lathe.
I made this quick change tool post with a dozen or so tool holders fitted with a range of HSS form tools etc
Dan.


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## Steamchick (Dec 12, 2021)

Having used my Grandfather's carbon steel tools, tools made from broken files, HSS and carbide tools, I can only say that HSS is the most versatile tool material, but inserts honed on a diamond wheel can be sharpened to the shape you want - and a near razor-edge if you are careful (fine for brass/aluminium/nylon at speed). But they are not without risk of chipping the edge... (a bit like knapping flint!). Funny... I use all sorts of speeds below 1200rpm - "as that was what I grew up with on pre-1950s lathes). But I don't remove large amounts of material to need modern speeds and feeds.... (Only make tiddly little things - a 0.020" cut and hand feed that "sounds right" suits me. And my little lathes and motors won't do the work, and are not stiff enough to remain accurate, with larger cuts and feeds.).
Another thing: too fast on CI simply grinds the tool, instead of cutting the CI. 
But I wish I had a back-gear to develop more torque at low speed... Electronic Variable Speed is convenient, but lacking in low speed torque.
"Each to his own" is my conclusion, until you want "industrial" levels of metal removal.
K2


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## Jasonb (Dec 12, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> But I wish I had a back-gear to develop more torque at low speed... Electronic Variable Speed is convenient, but lacking in low speed torque.
> "Each to his own" is my conclusion, until you want "industrial" levels of metal removal.



This is where carbide helps us as you can run 3-4 times faster than HSS so where you may have used a slow backgear on something like a flywheel with HSS you can run a faster spindle speed which helps put the motor into is's power band with carbide. My lathe is essentially the same as Brian's and I use 2-300rpm on 9" cast iron flywheels and tool life is fine.

I would be taking off about a 20thou cut at that dia and a fine feed but the lathe is capable of a much deeper cut as the diameter comes down.


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## Steamchick (Dec 12, 2021)

Thanks Jason, what cutting speeds do you propose for HSs and Carbide inserts? - for both Mild steel, and CI, and maybe brass as well? Ft/min. or m/s, or whatever you have and I'll calculate running speeds per diameter for these and make a table.
I currently use a drill-speed table per material - and tweak it a bit by "feel and ear" as a quick guide, as it saves me calculating everything when I want to be making swarf.
The odd thing is that I have never come across a milling speed  per material table? - Again, "feel and ear" gives me good results, usually by adjusting hand feed rate.  But that's what I did as an "apprentice", based on some rudimentary speeds and feeds that the experienced fitters taught me (that I have forgotten. Too many years in industry, not involved with machining details.).
Thanks,
K2


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## Steamchick (Dec 12, 2021)

On feed rate for cutting, I work on about few~5% speed drop as the variable speed adjusts for the electrical load to meet the torque. But that is unique to my lathe as the speed controller damping is set.... somehow randomly? The lead-screw is the only auto-feed I have anyway, which is left on the slowest feed rate and I only change it when thread cutting needs different change wheels. (A spanner job to change speed). For cross cutting and using the compound slide it is all manual feed, and that is something I enjoy, as I learned hand-over-hand feed using the WWII lathes when I was a lad, and my Grandfather's (then later my Dad's) 3" swing lathe with RH Threads on the feed-screws (LEFT makes it tight) etc., as it pre-dated all the modern LH-Threaded feed-screws (RIGHT makes it tight). Oh, and I learned hand graving on my other grandfather's watch makers lathe (no tool post). Graving takes a lot of careful control, but still good for blending flats to curves without CNC! I am sure graving still qualifies as machining? - There must be a few gravers amongst you all!
K2


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## Charles Lamont (Dec 12, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> I currently use a drill-speed table per material - and tweak it a bit by "feel and ear" as a quick guide, as it saves me calculating everything when I want to be making swarf.
> The odd thing is that I have never come across a milling speed  per material table? - Again, "feel and ear" gives me good results, usually by adjusting hand feed rate.  But that's what I did as an "apprentice", based on some rudimentary speeds and feeds that the experienced fitters taught me (that I have forgotten. Too many years in industry, not involved with machining details.).



To understand this go back to first principles. In theory, what matters is the surface speed of the tool relative to the job. So for the same tool and work materials you turn a 1" diameter at the same speed as you drill a 1" hole or run a 1" end mill.

The speeds given in text and data books are based on efficient and economic production, optimising between production rate and tool costs. As amateurs, we don't need to do that, and can do what suits us, our kit, and our jobs. But it is a useful starting point.

I mostly use HSS tooling, and I start with: 
alloy steel & cast iron: 50 ft/min
mild steel: 100 ft/min
brass & aluminium alloy: 300 ft/min

I just do a bit of (most usually mental) arithmetic to turn that guide into a speed suitable for the workpiece (or cutter) diameter. Rather that look up a table, it may be better for you in holding off dementia to do the mental exercise, and if that much mental arthmetic is beyond your capabilities, I am not sure you are safe to be let loose in a workshop.

In practice, I tend to mill a bit slower and drill quite a lot slower. I also usually bore more slowly too. And ream at no more than half calculated speed, often a lot less.

For turning, I will generally pick the nearest lower speed of the machine and try that, dropping further if the job seems to go better that way. I usually look for a speed that will give me the best surface finish.

For the very best finish off the tool, finishing the root radius on a crankpin for example, I may well drop right down to bottom back-gear (25 rpm).

I also use a fair amount of home made tooling such a boring bits. These are silver steel (drill rod) and I halve the nominal HSS speed.   

On the rare occasions I use carbide tools I go for about 3 times the HSS speed on iron. Machining steel with carbide, I go for chips that come off turning colour and end up blue.


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## ChazzC (Dec 12, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Jason, what cutting speeds do you propose for HSs and Carbide inserts? - for both Mild steel, and CI, and maybe brass as well? Ft/min. or m/s, or whatever you have and I'll calculate running speeds per diameter for these and make a table.
> I currently use a drill-speed table per material - and tweak it a bit by "feel and ear" as a quick guide, as it saves me calculating everything when I want to be making swarf.
> The odd thing is that I have never come across a milling speed  per material table? - Again, "feel and ear" gives me good results, usually by adjusting hand feed rate.  But that's what I did as an "apprentice", based on some rudimentary speeds and feeds that the experienced fitters taught me (that I have forgotten. Too many years in industry, not involved with machining details.).
> Thanks,
> K2



Little Machine Shop (LMS) has a Speeds & Feeds calculator on their website (under LittleMachineShopdotcom\Info Center\Machinist Calculator\Speeds & Feeds if the link has changed) that includes Milling, Turning & Drilling operations:

     https://littlemachineshop.com/mobile/speeds_feeds.php

Select the operation, the material, diameter (end mill, drill bit or object depending upon the operation), cutter material (Carbide/HSS),number of cutting edges (milling or drilling defaults to 2 but can be changed, turning defaults to 1) and enter the maximum speed of your machine. You can also tweak the cutting speed from the range that the calculator recommends based on material.

There are also other handy calculators on the Machinist Calculator page.


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## Jasonb (Dec 12, 2021)

My rough and ready rule of thumb is much the same as Charles
Steel & iron 100ft/min for HSS and 300ft/min for carbide or 30m and 100m/min in metric. Aluminium 3 times that. Turning or milling

Most half decent suppliers will give suggested speeds for their inserts or cutters in various materials, for example most inserts would have a range of 80-240m/min and for the flywheels I mentioned above I would be towards the top end of that to counter the loss of guts on the variable speed machines when cutting large diameters where it really drops off at slow speed.

In all cases treat any published charts as a starting guide and adjust to suit your machine and the job in hand, generally try and stay close to the surface speed but lower the DOC and feeds if needed. Most of the time I don't bother to shift my lathe into the high range which would give book speeds for small diameters the 1150rpm max in low range does a good enough job particularly as we are likely to be just doing one or two items rather than a large batch where it would be worth the effort to change.


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## L98fiero (Dec 12, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> The odd thing is that I have never come across a milling speed  per material table?


Try Gwizard, it's free up to, I think, 3 hp and it covers turning, milling and drilling and has some useful other information. Biggest problem I have is that they have updates every few weeks/months and the process, while helpful, is annoying, and then there's the regular sales emails, but not so annoying as to cause me to get rid of the program.  G-Wizard CNC Speeds and Feeds Calculator for Milling Machines


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## el gringo (Dec 12, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Okay---To bring this thread up to date---this is what I bought. It seems to work very well for what I do and the carbide hasn't chipped nor broken on interrupted cuts. I can take 0.020" depth of cut in cold rolled steel, and it doesn't seem to mind a bit.  I bought the toolholder with a 1/2" square shank and didn't realize until it got here that my quick change toolpost would only work with 3/8" square tooling. In order to get the carbide down to the lathes centerline I had to remove 0.125" from the bottom of one tool holder, but that's okay, that toolholder is dedicated to this particular tool. It wasn't cheap, I think I paid close to $170 Canadian for the tool and five inserts. Each insert has three points, so I hope to get a good long life from this.


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## el gringo (Dec 12, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Okay---To bring this thread up to date---this is what I bought. It seems to work very well for what I do and the carbide hasn't chipped nor broken on interrupted cuts. I can take 0.020" depth of cut in cold rolled steel, and it doesn't seem to mind a bit.  I bought the toolholder with a 1/2" square shank and didn't realize until it got here that my quick change toolpost would only work with 3/8" square tooling. In order to get the carbide down to the lathes centerline I had to remove 0.125" from the bottom of one tool holder, but that's okay, that toolholder is dedicated to this particular tool. It wasn't cheap, I think I paid close to $170 Canadian for the tool and five inserts. Each insert has three points, so I hope to get a good long life from this.


I have found TTC brand inserts not to be of the quality worth the price.
Ray M


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## Vietti (Dec 12, 2021)

Beating a dead horse but that holder and inserts for 170 Canadian would be under $20 with shipping from Bangood, and there is some variety in insert specs.  I use the diamond shape inserts the most and their thinnest parting tool and inserts is a joy.

Has any one else used Bangood tools and inserts that can comment on their quality or lack thereof??


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## Gordon (Dec 12, 2021)

I have a set of holders RH LH center as well as cut off threading and boring bars from Banggood. I have been very satisfied with them and everything was probably about $100. I use them all of the time on the lathe. No complaints and I am still using the inserts which came with the originals.


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## Jasonb (Dec 13, 2021)

The two different times I bough Banggood inserts I found they were quite poor.

One were Inserts for a face mill that were so blunt it shook the mill all over the place, changing to better quality inserts transformed it completely (also had to correct the actual head which was a sloppy fit on the arbor)

Second were some CCTY 06 that just did not cut well , on one job they had lost their edge after one pass, changed to Kennametal and completed the job and insert still as good as when it started.

The problem with Banggood is they are just a market place so you don't really know who the item is coming from.

And before anyone suggests I'm anti all my holders are Chinese, mostly Glanze with some APT and ARC, worth paying a little more for better quality import but not the whole hog for name brands

I also wonder why Brian went for such a large holder, not only did it need modifications but it takes larger ( More Costly) inserts and he seems to want to keep costs down buy getting 3 corners to use despite diamond shaped ones giving 4 usable corners? I would also have gone for a smaller tip radius for the size of work Brian does, 0.8mm (1/32" rad) is more for roughing at our sizes, 0.2mm or 0.4mm rad is what I use for most work


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## Richard Hed (Dec 13, 2021)

Vietti said:


> Beating a dead horse but that holder and inserts for 170 Canadian would be under $20 with shipping from Bangood, and there is some variety in insert specs.  I use the diamond shape inserts the most and their thinnest parting tool and inserts is a joy.
> 
> Has any one else used Bangood tools and inserts that can comment on their quality or lack thereof??


Yes, I can comment.  I have been using them with decent luck.  As long as they are sharp, they cut very well and make a very smooth finish cut.  however, honestly, I cannot compare them to the high priced spread, because I simply cannot afford a bit that costs 20-45$ that is supposed to last forever.  When I first started buying bangood I had virtually no trouble paying for them or recieving them.  But now, it seems they have complicated the process, they are hiding their prices so they can get your eddress, tele #, home address and your bank account #.  I really hate that type of "marketing"--I just want to see the price.  Instead, I get loads of unwanted email to sell me "just what I want" but it NEVER IS just what I want.  I have been trying to get one of those very sharp nosed diamond tool holder in the "v" designation category but they are difficlut to find.  Odd-- the bits are every where but no holders!

In the end, I get frustrated and angry and end up cutting the bastards off.  The price has gone up quite significantly too.  I use a triangle for lots of cutting, those semi-dtriangles (not quite triangles but with a couple extrs sides) for roughing and interupted cuts, and the "D" series (diamond) for finish cuts and a lot of rougnhting too. 

Have you noticed that the Chinese are like insurance salesmen?  They ask you on the phone:  "How are hyou today?  Everything good?"  When I hear that, I say some VERY un nice things abnd hang up.  The Chinese do the same but I thimpfks it's not like the insurance kreeps, I thimpfks it's their culture to "be polite" .  What they do is ask, "Hi Johnson, happy Honika, (or Xmas, or new year, or satan's birthday, or whatever they thimpfks they can bait you with)", not understanding that "Johnson" is my last name and it's very rude in OUR culture to say, "Hi JOHNSON".  It's also extremely tiring to have some business person whom I do not know personally, have no interest in knowing by long distance who is trying to pretend to be my fwen just to make a sale (or is that sail?).  The instant they have gotten my $$, they have forgotten my g..da.. name and wouldn't say hi to me on the street even tho' only yesterday they were humping my leg in the elevator!


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## Richard Hed (Dec 13, 2021)

Gordon said:


> I have a set of holders RH LH center as well as cut off threading and boring bars from Banggood. I have been very satisfied with them and everything was probably about $100. I use them all of the time on the lathe. No complaints and I am still using the inserts which came with the originals.


Ho, yes, I bought several sets of tool holders because they came with 10 inserts--the whole set being cheaper than 10 inserts by gthemselves.  the bits are good too.


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## jirvin_4505 (Jan 26, 2022)

Just a Wannabe try hard .. don’t know much hobbist

i  buy banggood and AliExpress holders and inserts

its been a lesson in understanding insert numbers and material types. … so a lot of inappropriate purchaces!,

the videos of Stefen have guided my choices

the intro to this video is usefull



i settled on the little inserts mentioned plus did source some more expensive finishing inserts with small radius front England(in comments of video) I’m able to take of very fine cuts with the tools.  Just looked and can’t seem to find them any more

plus a general troll around his Chanel watching what tooling he is using

following some chat on other forums I’ve also having good results cutting at hobbyist feeds and speeds using the ground polished aluminium inserts in steel. They are so economic from China that it’s worth the experiment
plus even have a play with diamond inserts due to low cost

the biggest mistake has been buying inserts that are too big and designed more for heavy duty lathes

i sourced (China) a holder to use all 4 sides of the ccmt inserts rather than make my own as stefan showed … was very economical

cheers jeff

i also get inspiration on economical hobby use of carbide in little lathes watching Larry…


----------



## Brian Rupnow (Feb 11, 2022)

Just a brief update on the tooling I bought---I am very pleased with it. I've been using it for about a month and a half now, still using the original tip of the original carbide. ---Brian


----------



## SpringHollow (Feb 11, 2022)

I just now happened to notice that you removed 1/8" from the QC tool holder.  I would have just removed the 1/8" from the insert tools making them 3/8" instead of 1/2".  The plus of how you did it is that you only had to do it once.  The negative is that you have permanently modified a holder.


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## SmithDoor (Feb 12, 2022)

Most my work I use HSS and grind for job. I do have a large supply of inserts but rarely use them.

Dave 



Brian Rupnow said:


> My last design contract is finished and I have a little money to spend. I want to know a "top of the line" carbide inserts and holder to fit my quick change toolpost on my 12' x 28" lathe. I have tried the HSS inserts and holder from Arthur Warner, and although they work very well, they dull very quickly. They can be sharpened about 15 times before they are "done". I have tried another set of carbides and holders from  Shars, but they too didn't seem to stand up very well. 95% of my lathe work is on mild steel or cold rolled steel less than 1 1/2" diameter, the remaining 5% is aluminum and very little brass.  I have a bunch of brazed carbide tools that I was given, and I use them a fair amount. My general turning speed is 500 to 600 rpm. Probable about 1/4 of my work involves interrupted cuts.  I see many guys using diamond shaped carbide inserts, and  they have only two cutting points that can be used, but because of their shape they can get into tight places. I see other guys using triangular shaped inserts, which gives 3 available cutting edges, which seems more economical because you get three cutting "points" rather than the two cutting points you get from a diamond shaped carbide. I use my lathe a lot. Can somebody make a recommendation for tools that can be bought in North America. I am a bit lost in this quest, and would appreciate any advice from people who have used this tooling.----Brian rupnow


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## roncohudd (Feb 12, 2022)

SmithDoor said:


> Most my work I use HSS and grind for job. I do have a large supply of inserts but rarely use them.
> 
> Dave


I usually try to find Iscar inserts. I use both diamond and triangle. Diamond gives me 4 corners triangle 6. My holders are usually 5/8 or 3/4 .


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## abby (Feb 12, 2022)

I bought a set of holders and inserts for my Boxford lathe(British made Southbend clone) from Bangood. The holders needed about 1/16" milling off to bring them to centre height , the inserts seem to be ok.
I have bought several items from Bangood some have been good and some awful.
Dan


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## SmithDoor (Feb 12, 2022)

roncohudd said:


> I usually try to find Iscar inserts. I use both diamond and triangle. Diamond gives me 4 corners triangle 6. My holders are usually 5/8 or 3/4 .


I been using inserts since 1970.
I found out good hss sharpen correctly works great for lot jobs. 
Now inserts just sit around in draw.
I also use brazed on carbide too. 

Dave


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## ajoeiam (Feb 13, 2022)

roncohudd said:


> I usually try to find Iscar inserts. I use both diamond and triangle. Diamond gives me 4 corners triangle 6. My holders are usually 5/8 or 3/4 .



Sorry - - - diamond gives me 8 corners!!!  (that's the C shape)

Quote <<<

*Turning insert shape*
The insert shape should be selected relative to the entering angle accessibility required for the tool. The largest possible nose angle should be selected to provide insert strength and reliability. However, this has to be balanced against the variation of cuts that need to be performed.

A large nose angle is strong, but requires more machine power and has a higher tendency for vibration.

A small nose angle is weaker and has a small cutting edge engagement, both of which can make it more sensitive to the effects of heat.





*Cutting edge strength
(Large nose angle)*

Stronger cutting edge
Higher feed rates
Increased cutting force
Increased vibration
*Less vibration tendency
(Small nose angle)*

Increased accessibility
Decreased vibration
Decreased cutting force
Weaker cutting edge
>>> end quote

4 of those corners are for serious metal removal! (That's the 100 degree corners.)

Missing from this list is Iscar's Q shape (it seems that this may no longer be available!!)
Take the W and give it 4 corners with the same bump out on each edge and you have the Q.
Guess it didn't sell well enough - - - bummer - - - theoretically it should have been a great insert shape!!!

I've only used the round in ceramics then it was the 'C's and then the 'I's.

Think a 'V' shape would be very useful if one could change the angle of the toolholder on the fly.

Have also done a lot of work using brazed on carbide - - - its quite fascinating pulling 0.250" of the radius in one cut!!
(Lots of fun when you has to scrape (better term than cut) the chrome off a cylinder rod that is deep chromed and deep hardened!!)


----------



## roncohudd (Feb 13, 2022)

SmithDoor said:


> I been using inserts since 1970.
> I found out good hss sharpen correctly works great for lot jobs.
> Now inserts just sit around in draw.
> I also use brazed on carbide too.
> ...


I use brazed carbide and has for special cuts like grooves and radius.
Also my cutoff tools has. Usually grind a tool and use it then save it for future use.


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## roncohudd (Feb 13, 2022)

roncohudd said:


> I use brazed carbide and has for special cuts like grooves and radius.
> Also my cutoff tools has. Usually grind a tool and use it then save it for future use.


Sorry HSS


----------



## SmithDoor (Feb 13, 2022)

roncohudd said:


> I use brazed carbide and has for special cuts like grooves and radius.
> Also my cutoff tools has. Usually grind a tool and use it then save it for future use.


I use carbide and brazed on bar of steel. I do this for deep cutting of A36 steel which need a high rake angle for best cutting. I do same with hss steel for short runs. 

Dave


----------



## animal12 (Feb 13, 2022)

Roncohudd , what triangle inserts are you using that give you 6 corners ? Would that mean that the insert has 0 rake ?
I like the idea of the diamond inserts . Do you need two different tool holders to be able to use 4 corners or is there just 2 corners per side ? I've been reading on inserts for a while & it's a pretty overwhelming world . 
thanks
animal12


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## Ghosty (Feb 13, 2022)

Here is a couple of charts for cutting bits
Cheers
Andrew


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## Ozwes007 (Feb 13, 2022)

Just a little info. The corner radius on a carbide insert is what you need to understand determines your minimum depth of cut and optimum feed per rev. The type of edge and clearance angles determine what it should cut like(in broad terms). The tool holder can be positive, negative or neutral so a zero rake clearance angle insert should be added to the holder’s rake to obtain true clearance angles. Also carbides don’t actually cut like HSS or Carbon Steel bits, they have more of a rubbing action that relies on correct speed, depth and feeds to give a positive result. A good carbide tip should last between 6 to 8 hours per tip of an insert, as such on a double sided triangular insert would give you 36 to 48 hours of continuous accurate cutting. ( use a tip every week of full time work )


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## wazrus (Feb 14, 2022)

I do think that most machining done by hobbyists is well served with HSS tooling. I do have my fair share of insert tooling and it has its place, sure, but I don't want to afford the 'throwaway' prices. I have about four complete toolposts, most of which wear HSS tooling, so the QC toolposts really aren't relevant. Toolposts are relatively easy to machine, so why bother with the QC type? Much quicker to change the whole post. Then there are times when my insert has just rubbed any edge it had right off and I do 'touch'em up' on a green grit wheel. Are most of our milling cutters carbide? I have a fair selection of carbide (easily broken/shattered) cheapies in the smaller sizes and the larger cutters are HSS and these I routinely 'touch up' offhand. Quite successfully, too. I've had a couple of friends who had very little idea of HSS tooling and they used to spend lots of $$$ on inserts. I suppose the question is if you _really do need inserts all the time?_ Do you, really?


----------



## David Shealey (Feb 14, 2022)

wazrus said:


> I do think that most machining done by hobbyists is well served with HSS tooling. I do have my fair share of insert tooling and it has its place, sure, but I don't want to afford the 'throwaway' prices. I have about four complete toolposts, most of which wear HSS tooling, so the QC toolposts really aren't relevant. Toolposts are relatively easy to machine, so why bother with the QC type? Much quicker to change the whole post. Then there are times when my insert has just rubbed any edge it had right off and I do 'touch'em up' on a green grit wheel. Are most of our milling cutters carbide? I have a fair selection of carbide (easily broken/shattered) cheapies in the smaller sizes and the larger cutters are HSS and these I routinely 'touch up' offhand. Quite successfully, too. I've had a couple of friends who had very little idea of HSS tooling and they used to spend lots of $$$ on inserts. I suppose the question is if you _really do need inserts all the time?_ Do you, really?


Picture of one of your "Toolposts"?   I have no idea what you mean by changing toolpost quicker than a QC toolpost.


----------



## ajoeiam (Feb 14, 2022)

wazrus said:


> I do think that most machining done by hobbyists is well served with HSS tooling. I do have my fair share of insert tooling and it has its place, sure, but I don't want to afford the 'throwaway' prices. I have about four complete toolposts, most of which wear HSS tooling, so the QC toolposts really aren't relevant. Toolposts are relatively easy to machine, so why bother with the QC type? Much quicker to change the whole post. Then there are times when my insert has just rubbed any edge it had right off and I do 'touch'em up' on a green grit wheel. Are most of our milling cutters carbide? I have a fair selection of carbide (easily broken/shattered) cheapies in the smaller sizes and the larger cutters are HSS and these I routinely 'touch up' offhand. Quite successfully, too. I've had a couple of friends who had very little idea of HSS tooling and they used to spend lots of $$$ on inserts. I suppose the question is if you _really do need inserts all the time?_ Do you, really?



I don't think one does but then I was in an environment where I had to use brazed on carbide tools almost all the time.
Easy to get at least decent that way.

Now if you aren't into sharpening or somewhat scared of the art - - - well then inserts are the way to go.
Inserts do excel at repeatability.
Then you exchange the corner for a fresh tip - - - You KNOW that you're within a thou if not less of the last place (unless of course you were really hammering that previous corner - - - grin!). (I have destroyed more than an insert or two - - - LOL! Occasionally on purpose too.)


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## SmithDoor (Feb 14, 2022)

David Shealey said:


> Picture of one of your "Toolposts"?   I have no idea what you mean by changing toolpost quicker than a QC toolpost.


It term most know (QV toolpost)
It typically a Aloris type there other types










						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




Dave


----------



## dazz (Feb 14, 2022)

Hi
If you buy good inserts, they have data sheets available that specify the cutting conditions.  
Generally I run them scary fast rpm at frightening depth of cut.  Carbide needs to cut metal.


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 15, 2022)

Hi Dazz, I think you are right: Inserts are meant for machines with bags of power, and stiffness, for high speed cutting and fast material removal, well quenched to avoid overheating and distortion (of the component being machined), and are very cheap in industry where they buy them by the bucket load and change to a new cutting edge every shift or 5.
But many of us do small cuts at lower speeds, because we have "little", "hobby" machine tools, without the power to need or properly use carbide inserts. I use some carbide - some as broken bits I have brazed onto steel bar and re-ground to sharp edges that make very good hobby tools. But I also have HSS and old "tool-steel" tools that all work very well, at their suitable speeds, cuts and feed-rate, on the right material and application. And you are right that, if you can power the cutting rate for carbide, it is the best thing since ... ??
K2


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## roncohudd (Feb 16, 2022)

David Shealey said:


> Picture of one of your "Toolposts"?   I have no idea what you mean by changing toolpost quicker than a QC toolpost.


I've been using the Aloris style tool post almost forever. My small Atlas has the type A piston type, the Grizzly 13 x40 has the wedge. I don't have a problem with either one. I get my tool length and height set and can go all day. Only  change inserts when needed. Real time saving.


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## David Shealey (Feb 16, 2022)

SmithDoor said:


> It term most know (QV toolpost)
> It typically a Aloris type there other types
> 
> 
> ...


That is a QC tool post, which probably a high percentage of us are using. me included.  I know what a QC toolpost is. My question was to WAZRUS, as he posted 
"I have about four complete toolposts, most of which wear HSS tooling, so the QC toolposts really aren't relevant. Toolposts are relatively easy to machine, so why bother with the QC type? Much quicker to change the whole post. "
That still does not make sense to me, if he changes the readily machined toolosts, rather than use a QC toolpost, what is he talking about? I change toolholders on my Aloris type QC toolpost in seconds.


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## animal12 (Feb 16, 2022)

I think by changing tool post he's getting 4 new different tool bits with each post change .
animal


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## Richard Hed (Feb 17, 2022)

animal12 said:


> I think by changing tool post he's getting 4 new different tool bits with each post change .
> animal


Regular quick change are still easier and faster.  I buy the cheapest ones I can find.  If I can ever get my milling machine up and hopping or waddling, I'll make my own.  Even the cheapest I can find at shars are too expensive for a a cheapo like myself.  Not only that, but the ones I bought at shars, I had to sand down about 2-3thou to fit my TP.  Still, they are good QCTPs.  I have about 12 and would buy more except at the moment I really don't need extra.  I needs a "no pressure" knurling tool, however.

I started out with a 1918 SB worn out lathe with a rocker style (I calls them ducks, they walk like a duck, chatter like a duck, what else could they be?) which was hell to deal with.  I was really excited to get a four way post as I thot I would get four tools into it and just rotate them, but that did not happen, I was lucky to get two in.  The constant shimming and adjusting was maybe actually WORSE than the DUCK!

When I finally got the QC I was happier than a duck with new duckings and a nice safe pond.  I have one on each lathe.  I was looking ath the British style QCTP (or maybe that is Euro style?) and wanted to make one just for the s***s and giggles.  But I also saw a home version that looks really nice that someone did.  I thimpfks there are efen plans for them.  Would like to do that too just for the giggles.

They are actually simple in design compared to a lot of things we do.  The only real different operation is the bevels which one needs a bevel tool for to make it easy.  I'm sure I could do it with out the bevel cutter, but it would be like "ducking" it.


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## animal12 (Feb 17, 2022)

Try these folks for the tool holders for your QCTP
animal


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## animal12 (Feb 17, 2022)

It usually works better when I add the link in my post 




__





						CDCO Machinery Corp.
					





					www.cdcotools.com
				



animal


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## wazrus (Feb 17, 2022)

Yeah, I change mine in as many seconds, too. Some of the posts wear insert tooling, others HSS and as somebody (animal) suggested, there are four different tools available on each post. Just undo the top screw, turn the post around, and you're away. What could be simpler and without the expense of so-called QC toolposts? I have one which has tooling for O-rings and the other side has a cemented carbide threading tool: that's a 2-way job. Then there are three other 4-way jobs and lastly, there's a 3-way, triangular (sort of) post, which allows some unusual approach angles and often can save changing and packing tooling, if it ever comes down to that. My toolposts are made from 4"x2" black mild steel solid. The tool grooves are drilled out from the solid, then milled to final size and shape, having drilled the hole for the post itself. Simple, but can be heavy going. I have also made another post attachment which carries a small hacksaw blade in a reciprocating frame. The reciprocation is by hand, but the thing is very handy for slotting small screws, when I can't be bothered setting up a mill. An issue with tool posts are the setscrews. Just any 'ol setscrew won't be much use, as the ends will mushroom and getting the screws out might be a problem, if you ever wanted to. There are very much hardened, square-headed toolpost screws available- or there used to be - and these are the goods. Socket-head capscrews will often suffice, being usually higher-tensile and tougher, but not as durable as the proper square-heads. I'll send some pix of the toolposts: I'm not in my shop at present. I have always thought that tool changing is most conveniently done with a collection of posts: a bit 'old fashioned', if you like and I've never been convinced of any real benefits of the QC posts or attachments.


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## wazrus (Feb 17, 2022)

It seems there is a terminology 'issue'. i have attached some pix of several of my toolposts and I feel sure no explanation of them all is needed. Their application, etc is obvious. One worthy of note, though is the decidedly 'old school' single toolpost, with the central setscrew. this is usually used with a forged steel toolholder. the toolholder itself is often 'bedded' on a spherically-faced 'washer', with what used to be known as a 'boat' underneath. The boat allowed the tool and its holder to be orientated 'on centre'. The packing to centre is not much of an issue for me, as there are about twenty tool holding grooves available. I don't think many lathes these days come with one of the single-post holders. Tool holders themselves are still available and do allow very ready adjustment of tools to desired heights. Toolholders are a good item to have if you're using a shaper, but the shaper holders are often specialised for that machine. Some carbide insert tooling is also visible and as I've said, carbides, both inserted and cemented, have their place, at least in my shop. There was a third photo, but the system seems to be having a hernia.


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## wazrus (Feb 17, 2022)

The toolholders/posts in my pikkies usually run on a 24"x12" lathe and the central bolts- the ones with the handles- terminate in a fitting which will allow tightening to the compound-slide T-slot. My weeny little chinese 14"x7" doesn't have a compound slide slot, and the toolpost bolts, more-or-less directly, to the top of the compound slide. As such it's nowhere near as convenient a proposition to change toolposts and I can appreciate that with this small machine, the QR toolpost would be most useful. In fact, i might even invest in one or maybe I'll just alter the compound slide....hmmmm.....


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## awake (Feb 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> But I also saw a home version that looks really nice that someone did.  I thimpfks there are efen plans for them.  Would like to do that too just for the giggles.


I've made Aloris-piston-type QCTP for each of my lathes - a nice little project, and they have worked well for me through many years. I can dig up the plans if there is interest ...


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## SmithDoor (Feb 17, 2022)

I purchased my first quick change back 1972. 
I still keep old type for odd work when the Aloris is to big. That may happen ever 5 years. 

Dave 



David Shealey said:


> That is a QC tool post, which probably a high percentage of us are using. me included.  I know what a QC toolpost is. My question was to WAZRUS, as he posted
> "I have about four complete toolposts, most of which wear HSS tooling, so the QC toolposts really aren't relevant. Toolposts are relatively easy to machine, so why bother with the QC type? Much quicker to change the whole post. "
> That still does not make sense to me, if he changes the readily machined toolosts, rather than use a QC toolpost, what is he talking about? I change toolholders on my Aloris type QC toolpost in seconds.


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## Richard Hed (Feb 17, 2022)

awake said:


> I've made Aloris-piston-type QCTP for each of my lathes - a nice little project, and they have worked well for me through many years. I can dig up the plans if there is interest ...


Thank you.  I am interested in the plans.


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## Jasonb (Feb 17, 2022)

Quick change also allows a tool to go back in the same place which is useful if you are making more than one part that needs several tools, can't do that with a lot of 4-way posts as they don't all have indexing plates and peg.


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## SpringHollow (Feb 17, 2022)

The multifix tool posts are extremely nice.

Ken


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## Richard Hed (Feb 17, 2022)

SpringHollow said:


> The multifix tool posts are extremely nice.
> 
> Ken


Ah, this "multifix" is what I called the British TP.  I din't know the name.  I'm wondering how it works.  Can you move it around to various positions?  What can hyou tell about it?


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## animal12 (Feb 17, 2022)

These folks are making their version of the Multifix tool post . If I hadn't of bought my QCTP I would have bought one of these . Their a real nice setup . I've been in full blown real machine shops where all their tool post's are the Multifix , or the KDK brand  . That tells you something about the useful ness of these type tool holder . When I bought my QCTP I made a trip to my fastener store & bought a bag maybe 100 set screws to replace the soft dog points that come with the import QCTP & tool holders . These import Multifix aren't that much more than a quality import QCTP's .





						Original Multifix--Create Tool - Toolholder expert ---- QCTP toolpost | CNC tool holder
					

Welome to Create Tool, a company who has three generations experts toolholder.Create tool is a company from a manufacturing plant, who has 20 years experience on toolholder produced, from the elder engineer who produce the first multifix toolholder in China to the excellent engineer who research...



					www.createtool.com


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## David Shealey (Feb 18, 2022)

wazrus said:


> It seems there is a terminology 'issue'. i have attached some pix of several of my toolposts and I feel sure no explanation of them all is needed. Their application, etc is obvious. One worthy of note, though is the decidedly 'old school' single toolpost, with the central setscrew. this is usually used with a forged steel toolholder. the toolholder itself is often 'bedded' on a spherically-faced 'washer', with what used to be known as a 'boat' underneath. The boat allowed the tool and its holder to be orientated 'on centre'. The packing to centre is not much of an issue for me, as there are about twenty tool holding grooves available. I don't think many lathes these days come with one of the single-post holders. Tool holders themselves are still available and do allow very ready adjustment of tools to desired heights. Toolholders are a good item to have if you're using a shaper, but the shaper holders are often specialised for that machine. Some carbide insert tooling is also visible and as I've said, carbides, both inserted and cemented, have their place, at least in my shop. There was a third photo, but the system seems to be having a hernia.View attachment 134230


Now that you posted a picture I know what you are talking about.  My lathe (Jet GHB1340) came with one of those 4 way tool posts.  After a month of fiddling with shimming tool heights I got an Aloris style QCTP and several tool holders, put the 4 way in a drawer, never to be used again. I have never seen a reason to pull it out of the drawer. 
About 40 years ago I worked in a large shop that had 4 way and lantern/rocker style tool posts, bought Aloris quick change for all the lathes, the 4 ways and lantern tool posts soon found their way to the scrap bin, everyone was glad to see them go, none ever missed!


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## SpringHollow (Feb 18, 2022)

The Multifix (and clones) have 40 repeatable rotations and I routinely make use of that capability.  I have not looked at this link but Abom has one of the larger ones:


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## wazrus (Feb 18, 2022)

I found the indexing peg on my 7"x14" to be a nuisance, especially with the 4-way toolpost, so I removed it! It wasn't just a matter of the correct centre height, it was more for tool clearance near the chuck and also to alter the tool approach, if 'things' weren't cutting as expected. The 'free' toolpost allowed re-orientation, often when using form tools. The 7"x14"'s 4-way post is too small to use tool holders, although I do have a few very small ones, so I usually just pack HSS to centre and leave 'em. Maybe, too, I might make a couple more 4-way posts for the little one: in fact I'll probably make 'em a bit bigger and also alter the central bolt/peg arrangement.


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## wazrus (Feb 18, 2022)

Similarly, in reply to David Shealey, I've never found a need for a QC toolpost and I simply grab one of the 4-position posts. A further thought, though, is that with a QC post, it seems as though a user might be 'locking into' one or another makers' QC toolpost and if that maker goes belly up or decides not to manufacture any more - and that's happened plenty of times - then one is faced with buying a whole new suite. I certainly have a few 'proprietary gadgets' whose time has come, due in no way to my use of the thing. Just can't get 'em anymore, or parts for 'em.


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## animal12 (Feb 18, 2022)

even though you have a QCTP there sre times where you can't get the tool in as close as you can with a Aloris enough


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## animal12 (Feb 18, 2022)

I would also be interested in looking at plans for a tool post .
thanks
animal


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## ShopShoe (Feb 19, 2022)

If your QCTP toolpost is OK and you need holders, they are not too hard to make. You can also design variations to fit your occasional oddball needs.

Before QCTP, one of the things I learned about the 4-way toolposts that come with the MiniLathe and other lathes is that you can improve rigidity if you put another toolbit opposite the one you are cutting with even if you don't plan on using it.

Also before QCTP, I made special variations of tool holders that fit the stud on the compound: IMHO also worth it.......

Regarding the little spring-loaded peg that comes installed under the 4-way block, I took that off and never looked back very soon after I got the lathe.

--ShopShoe


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## ajoeiam (Feb 19, 2022)

ShopShoe said:


> Before QCTP, one of the things I learned about the 4-way toolposts that come with the MiniLathe and other lathes is that you can improve rigidity if you put another toolbit opposite the one you are cutting with even if you don't plan on using it.
> 
> snip



Hmm- - - - please explicate - - - how does having a tool opposite the one in use on a 4-way toolpost improve rigidity?


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## mikelkie (Feb 19, 2022)

SpringHollow said:


> The multifix tool posts are extremely nice.
> 
> Ken


But extremely pricey too


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## SmithDoor (Feb 19, 2022)

They good I look at that type back 1970's. But like the Aloris tool holder for repeat to 0.0001"

Dave 



mikelkie said:


> But extremely pricey too


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## roncohudd (Feb 19, 2022)

wazrus said:


> Similarly, in reply to David Shealey, I've never found a need for a QC toolpost and I simply grab one of the 4-position posts. A further thought, though, is that with a QC post, it seems as though a user might be 'locking into' one or another makers' QC toolpost and if that maker goes belly up or decides not to manufacture any more - and that's happened plenty of times - then one is faced with buying a whole new suite. I certainly have a few 'proprietary gadgets' whose time has come, due in no way to my use of the thing. Just can't get 'em anymore, or parts for 'em.


The Quick Change posts wi all interchange with each other as far as I've found. I have tool holders from 4 different makers and all enterchanable.


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## SpringHollow (Feb 19, 2022)

The Chinese versions of the Multifix are not extremely expensive and worth the price if you use your lathe much.


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## animal12 (Feb 19, 2022)

I gotto hang with Spring , If I hadn't bought a standard QCTP my lathe would be wearing one of the  Chinese Multifix tool post . Yea their a bit more than a regular QCTP but I feel they are so much more versatile . We could setup a go-fund me  to get me a Multifix & I will give a full rep[ort / review to this forum   .
animal


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## dazz (Feb 20, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Hmm- - - - please explicate - - - how does having a tool opposite the one in use on a 4-way toolpost improve rigidity?


The unused tool holder slightly bows the underside of the toolpost.  The added leverage improves the clamping and effective rigidity.


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## Neil Lickfold (Feb 20, 2022)

What I have found that adding another holder onto the tool block, even if empty, can alter the resonance. It only works if resonance becomes a problem.


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## ajoeiam (Feb 20, 2022)

dazz said:


> The unused tool holder slightly bows the underside of the toolpost.  The added leverage improves the clamping and effective rigidity.


It would seem that you have a poor quality toolpost. If not having a tool in a side causes any measurable bowing - - - well - - - you've got a problem. 
Dunno if its a case of the top and bottom members being inadequate or an inadequate grade of material (for the toolpost) but this does NOT need to be this way. 
If you are getting bowing - - - it could also mean that you are over tightening the hold down screws on the toolpost.  
(This not over tightening things has been something that I had to learn the hard way. I can remember snapping off the head of a 5/8" bolt using a standard combination wrench (15/16") (no cheater nor snipe) - - - - - that I could tighten the bolt to that level really didn't help me much!!)


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## Steamchick (Feb 20, 2022)

Usually tool suppliers supply things with the correct sized wrench so you DO NOT, or cannot over tighten fixings.
That's why small spanners are shorter than big spanners...
K2


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## ShopShoe (Feb 21, 2022)

ajoeiam,

"- - - how does having a tool opposite the one in use on a 4-way toolpost improve rigidity?"

The 4-way toolblock and mounting stud on 7x mini lathes of mine's vintage are too "flexible" to begin with. I also suspect that under cutting  conditions they may oscillate (which is what chatter is.) So, the logic (which is not my original idea) is that equalizing stress on the block and "balancing" the assembly will reduce chatter and make it easier to keep the cutting edge(s) of the tool aligned when cutting. And, the cutting stresses change with the usual feeds and speeds and type of material being cut.

I will admit that other factors come into play, especially if I have the "wrong" toolbit or have it ground wrong or etc. or etc........

I have tested the "second toolbit installed opposite" theory on my lathe in my shop and it helps in my situation: Your mileage may vary...

I also made a "one toolbit" toolblock that was all solid except for a mounting slot for one toolbit and that performed better than the stock one.

When I got the QCTP, I found it came with a heavier mounting stud made of better material and just seemed to be more rigid in its construction. It is a wedge type toolpost, rather than a piston type, which was my preference. I can't comment on the performance with a piston type toolpost.

--ShopShoe


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## Richard Hed (Feb 21, 2022)

ShopShoe said:


> ajoeiam,
> 
> "- - - how does having a tool opposite the one in use on a 4-way toolpost improve rigidity?"
> 
> ...


Allegedly the wedge type are better, but I wonder.


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## awake (Feb 21, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Allegedly the wedge type are better, but I wonder.


They are ... but the piston type are 1) much easier to make, and 2) more than good enough for hobby level manual machining.


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## ajoeiam (Feb 21, 2022)

ShopShoe said:


> ajoeiam,
> snip
> 
> I also made a "one toolbit" toolblock that was all solid except for a mounting slot for one toolbit and that performed better than the stock one.
> ...



The all solid toolblock would have a different resonant frequency when excited. 

Finding the "heavier stud made of better material" - - - - "more rigid" would - - - imo anyway underscore what I was saying. 
Its one of the problems with small very light duty machines - - - they are 'reasonable' because of more factors than just that they are small. 

I'd bet any owner of a 10EE (or is it 10EEE) won't be talking about this kind of flexing - - -yet its the same size of machine. 
(But most definitely not the 'class' of machine.)

(Its one of the reasons and older VDF lathe sells for more $$$ and faster than a newer Tos. 
Either works - - - but the fit and finish on the VDF - - - - - well - - its like the difference between mitutoyo and starret mic compared to a Tesa - - -they are just not the same!


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## ajoeiam (Feb 21, 2022)

awake said:


> They are ... but the piston type are 1) much easier to make, and 2) more than good enough for hobby level manual machining.



Even for 'fun' I just don't work to 'good enough'. 
I no longer try to aim for 'perfect' but aiming for 'good enough' is going to get me into trouble. 

The not pushing for perfection is something machining taught me. 
Perfect is the enemy of acceptable - - - that's why machinists have tolerance bands and welders talk about 'dead nuts' (and they just don't get there but that's another story!!!).


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## dazz (Feb 21, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> It would seem that you have a poor quality toolpost. If not having a tool in a side causes any measurable bowing - - - well - - - you've got a problem.
> Dunno if its a case of the top and bottom members being inadequate or an inadequate grade of material (for the toolpost) but this does NOT need to be this way.


The quality of steel does not affect the degree of flex (bowing).  Quality does affect the ultimate yield point.
If force is applied to steel, or any material, it will flex.


ajoeiam said:


> If you are getting bowing - - - it could also mean that you are over tightening the hold down screws on the toolpost.
> (This not over tightening things has been something that I had to learn the hard way. I can remember snapping off the head of a 5/8" bolt using a standard combination wrench (15/16") (no cheater nor snipe) - - - - - that I could tighten the bolt to that level really didn't help me much!!)


It is a small, light duty lathe.  It is going to flex when something is tightened.


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## David Shealey (Feb 22, 2022)

roncohudd said:


> The Quick Change posts wi all interchange with each other as far as I've found. I have tool holders from 4 different makers and all enterchanable.


Correct.  I have a Chinese 250 size (BXA) Aloris wedge style, and holders from three different sources.  All fit and function the same.


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## Chiptosser (Feb 22, 2022)

The quality of steel does not affect the degree of flex (bowing). Quality does affect the ultimate yield point. -----and elongation.

It certainly does   Your telling me that D2 tool steel or an other high strength allowed steel, has the same properties of a mild steel?

Most of the copy tool holders are made of lower grade steels, and some are not heat treated like higher quality brands.  
  They don't flex the same.     
 The design is not proper for the application to prevent unwanted elongation.


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## rklopp (Feb 22, 2022)

Chiptosser said:


> The quality of steel does not affect the degree of flex (bowing). Quality does affect the ultimate yield point. -----and elongation.
> 
> It certainly does   Your telling me that D2 tool steel or an other high strength allowed steel, has the same properties of a mild steel?
> 
> ...


Dazz is correct. The elastic modulus is what counts and it is the same for mild steel and D2 in the tool holder context. The value is about 30 million psi or 207 GPa.


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## Chiptosser (Feb 23, 2022)

Ah, so it is, I should have look at the chart before yapping. 
The shear Modulus, or modulus of rigidity is different. 
Just so others are not confused by this, Your mild steel component is not the same material quality as  high chrome steel.


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## Steamchick (May 21, 2022)

Possibly not the right place to post this, but it is something I have done a few times, and have made 3 bars - as well as used some my Father made. I hold the bars in a 3 jaw chuck, with a pop-mark at jaw no.1 for re-setting. 

I have also made boring bars for vertical application in the Mill-drill, with the tool set on the end  - both perpendicular to the axis, and at 30 or 45degrees to the axis as suits the bottom of the bore I am machining. This bar I mount in collets in the quill. I admit to enjoying boring cylinders this way, hand feeding the cut, and listening to the cut to ensure the feed is really smooth and evenly applied. 
Usually, I measure the tool-point to the opposite side of the bar, when on a known cut/bore size, it is easy to use the micrometer - set at say 0.010" more than whatever dimension you have to add the cut - in this case by 0.010" - or whatever you want. In the video, she uses a square tool bit in a broached hole, but usually I use round bits in round holes.
Enjoy "Boring". I do.
K2


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## Mike Ginn (May 22, 2022)

I think Quinn makes her bar with the square hole correctly but who has a broach?  For light cuts I always use a round cutters with a ground flat if necessary.  So much simpler to make.  I would also question filing a square hole in thick(ish) material.  Its really difficult - possible - but difficult.


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## stanstocker (May 22, 2022)

Mike Ginn said:


> I think Quinn makes her bar with the square hole correctly but who has a broach?  For light cuts I always use a round cutters with a ground flat if necessary.  So much simpler to make.  I would also question filing a square hole in thick(ish) material.  Its really difficult - possible - but difficult.


If you do want to put a square hole in something fairly thick there are a few tricks that help if you don't have a broach or a press that is large enough to press the broach through.

1)  Drill slightly oversize.  No reason to have perfect contact in the middle third of the flats.
2)  Rough out the corners with a saw if possible.  Just making a cut into the corner helps establish the square and the corners neatly for final work.
3)  Use a square file, in good shape, a bit smaller than the hole at the tip.  Refine each corner a few strokes at a time.  As the file goes deeper, it will tend to align itself and maintain the hole shape.

Gathering pallets for tall clocks break or get damaged fairly often, and have a quite small tapered square hole that is around 4+ times as deep as it's pilot hole.  I used to make a lot of these from 1095 ground stock.  Once I figured out establishing the corners using a jewelers saw and using a square file to work the opening into proper form my life got a lot easier.  At least as easy as it can be when making a long tapered square hole that's often around 1/16 inch on a side in steel.

For a larger square hole, it's worth considering poking a small hole just inside each corner before drilling out most of the waste.  Putting a flat on round stock where the square is to be created always helps too.  I've used this approach to poke 1/4 inch square holes now and then.  I don't do enough of them to justify buying or making a broach.

For boring bars, you could drill to just make a sliding fit on the cutter, and use the clamping screws to hold things in place.  If picky, just a few quick passes with a file would make a locating flat if you feel it's needed.

Cheers,
Stan


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## Mike Ginn (May 22, 2022)

Hi Stan
I agree with all you say and in an ideal world the hole would be square.  I just find making a squarish hole in say 1inch bar very time consuming and not really necessary if you can use round HSS with a flat.  Fortunately I made a set of boring bars many many years ago and these work fine.  I guess if you really need a square hole then a broach might be justified or use of hand tools as you describe.  I always find such hand tool work is speeded up by a nice glass of wine!
Mike


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## wazrus (May 22, 2022)

Like many, i have a collection of boring bars, for both chuck work and between centres. The between centres type shown in other contributors' has the cutter bar hole directly across the diameter. Most bars I've made have had their tool holes at an angle across the bar axis, largely to allow an outside micrometer to take a reading. Very much more convenient to adjust the cut than when the tool is projecting - even a small amount - on the other side. i don't see a need, either, to cut a square hole, but round as Mike Ginn suggests. The hole angle doesn't really matter, but a possible 'benefit' might be that the bar could be stiffer., especially with a smaller bar. If boring from the saddle, I very much prefer to lock the cross-slide in one position for the entire process and not use the lathe screws to adjust the cut.


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## Steamchick (May 23, 2022)

I have never had a problem with round tool bits in round holes. Some have flats ground on to align with the clamping screws, but not all. (Really small tools - <1/4" dia - are just round, in drilled holes).
Just be sure to keep you round HSS stock separate from your S/S, Silver-steel, or BDMS!
K2


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## Bentwings (May 24, 2022)

wazrus said:


> Like many, i have a collection of boring bars, for both chuck work and between centres. The between centres type shown in other contributors' has the cutter bar hole directly across the diameter. Most bars I've made have had their tool holes at an angle across the bar axis, largely to allow an outside micrometer to take a reading. Very much more convenient to adjust the cut than when the tool is projecting - even a small amount - on the other side. i don't see a need, either, to cut a square hole, but round as Mike Ginn suggests. The hole angle doesn't really matter, but a possible 'benefit' might be that the bar could be stiffer., especially with a smaller bar. If boring from the saddle, I very much prefer to lock the cross-slide in one position for the entire process and not use the lathe screws to adjust the cut.


if you make your broach or similar out of A2 tool steel it’s much easier to heat treat and draw so you can make very accurate tools .


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## Iampappabear (May 24, 2022)

Look for Sandvik Coromant, just about the best there is.  You will find triangle inserts the best option, try to avoid tips with holes in to lock them just makes them more prone to cracking and a top clamp works fine.

Colin


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## ajoeiam (May 25, 2022)

Iampappabear said:


> Look for Sandvik Coromant, just about the best there is.  You will find triangle inserts the best option, try to avoid tips with holes in to lock them just makes them more prone to cracking and a top clamp works fine.



Sorry - - - your comments above are quite a bit like " Ford makes the only car worth buying, there is nothing that drives better than my Lincoln." 

If you are starting from scratch (first purchases of holders as well as tooling) there are a plethora of high quality companies. 
Sandvik Coromant is a great company but looking at a few other options might also be useful. 
Names like Iscar, Kennametal, Ceratizit (and there are more!!) come to mind - - - then for specialty stuff there are a lot of smaller manufacturers. 
Was looking for a supplier for tooling for a poly-V (multi-V - - - - check your automotive belts today) and was surprised at how few options there were (and Sandvik wasn't one of them. 

Even just using triangle inserts - - - - wow - - - even if all you're doing is finishing there are other options. 
Triangle inserts may be a very 'safe' choice but I'm not sure I would even want to think that they're the 'best' option. 

If you're finding that triangle inserts are your 'best' option - - - because your equipment is very prone to vibration, is severely under powered, and you've never tried grinding your own tooling (HSS and brazed on carbide) - - - well - - - - please consider looking into other options than cemented carbide. There is a huge range of possibilities out there. You might find that you don't even need cemented carbide and the flexibility - - - - well it will astound you.


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## D and D (Aug 3, 2022)

Brian get a Diamond Tool Holder and some Crobalt and CoHSS Cutting Tips, no brainer imho.


			The Diamond Tool Holder
		






						Crobalt and CoHSS Cutting Tips | Shop
					

Crobalt® cast alloy is an alternative tool bit to the 1/4" HSS tips usually used in the Diamond Tool Holders, it's ideal for turning tough materials such as sta



					www.eccentricengineering.com.au


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## Steamchick (Aug 3, 2022)

Or make one like this? - No, not like this, a better one!
K2





P.S. I Apologise to all the proper machinists for the scrappy workplace I use...the swarf does get swept-up sometimes! - When I have a moment!


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