# 5c Collets...



## b.lindsey (Jul 1, 2009)

Collets can be handy for some things, not the least of which is accuracy...but that accuracy is going to be dependent on accuracy of the chuck, collet holder, fixture, etc. that the collet fits into. I would evaluate the accuracy that you can build into the chuck first or that advantage of the collets themselves will be potentially lost.

Bill


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## kvom (Jul 1, 2009)

The lathe I used at school had a nice Sjrogen collet chuck, and was very convenient.

At home I don't have a 5C chuck for the lathe, but do have a set of collet blocks. These are most useful for milling hex and square profiles in round stock. They are also useful for holding round pieces for vertical milling/drilling when v-blocks are too large.


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## rklopp (Jul 1, 2009)

If you haven't built model engine parts using collets, you don't know what you're missing! You will love the ability to remove and replace parts with minimal runout, and the avoidance of jaw marks on the parts. I'd never go back to using only jaw chucks.


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## shred (Jul 1, 2009)

Collets are very nice, but I'd also check out the ER series (ER-32 / 40 or so) as well-- 5C collets have a very narrow working range, so you need a huge set to cover all sizes of material (if you only use certain sizes, then you can get by with a lot less of them). ERs cost a little more per collet but have much larger range. ER seems more popular in Europe, while 5C is all over the place here.

Of course I don't think you can get ER collet blocks or spindexes or hex or square collets either, so if you want those, the decision may already be made.


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## steamer (Jul 1, 2009)

Paolo,

Good advice so far!....you chuck needs to be very good to take advantage of the 5C accuracy....but it will need to be good for any collet chuck.

Turning the collet mounting surfaces with the chuck on it's mounting in the lathe on which it will be used is your best bet.

Dave


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## Paolo (Jul 2, 2009)

Yes Dave...this is my intention. I'm intend to prepare the two pieces from another lathe, bigger one for the rapidity, and after mounting the fixed part on the back plate of my 7x12 proceeding at final works like internal&external treading ..after that I can try to prepare the twisting collet...My choice will be between this two sets...: Set of 30 Gloster Hardinge type 5C collets 1-30x1mm at 169 Euro or 19pc 5C Metric Round Collet Set - 3mm to 28mm at 123.50 Euro. I'm considering, after the received answers,also the ER type collets because of I have 7 and I use that set on my BF-20 mill...
Cheers Paolo


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## Blogwitch (Jul 2, 2009)

Try the bottom of the page on here

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures

The adapter is available from nowhere else, as it is designed by John Stevenson, and manufactured exclusively for Arc Euro.

This allows you to hold your ER 32 collets in your 5c fixtures. Also the Stevenson spindex unit (middle of the page) is again unique to Arc Euro, and you can hold both ER32 and 5c collets in it. The adapter in the spindex unit can only be used with that unit, so it is not possible to buy just the spindex unit and hope that the adapter in it will fit into other 5c units. 

They are out there, but just take a bit of finding.

Blogs


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## steamer (Jul 2, 2009)

Nice find Blogs....thanks for sharing that. 

Dave


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## Paolo (Jul 2, 2009)

Hi Blogs
Thanks for your nice suggestion!!!
Cheers
Paolo


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## Florian (Jul 2, 2009)

shred  said:
			
		

> Collets are very nice, but I'd also check out the ER series



Problem with ER collets is, you can't clamp the very short things.

Rego-Fix (Inventor of ER collets system) says: 
"Insert tool to the full length of the collet for best results if possible. However never insert the tool less than 2/3 of the collet bore length.
Improper tool insertion can permanently deform the collet and will result in poor runout."

So if you want to clamp short parts, you need to put another piece of material inside the collet which has exactly the same diameter.
With 5C collets you can even clamp very short discs and machine them. But you only have the nominal diameters.
For special diameters, you can still make a slotted sleeve.

I personally would prefer the 5C system; using a collet chuck (looks and handles like a 3 jaw chuck but has a nose for 5c collets: 5C collet chuck)


Florian


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## Paolo (Jul 3, 2009)

Hi Florian
Thanks for your advertising! I wasn't noticed about the problem clamping short pieces with ER collets. I suspected it remembering a difficulties encountered clamping shortly an end mill, some time ago, due to a particular work. It would be nice to have the Colet chuck but I have two order of problems..First my late is Small, like a Grizzly 7x12, and "costant" temporary money shortage!!!! :big: :big: :big:
Paolo


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## steamer (Jul 3, 2009)

Paolo,

Bison makes a version of that 5C collet chuck but 100mm diameter.

It is lighter and smaller.

I can't seem to find a place selling it in europe at the moment.

New England Brass and Tool sells them, but not as cheap as arceuro.

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 3, 2009)

Paolo:
  for a 7x lathe I would lean towards a 3C collet system this would work the way lathe collets are meant to and give good flexibility up to 1/2 round . yes 5c collects are more common. I use 3-Cs in my South Bend 9" on a regular basis. There are also 3-C pot chuck that are not too bad in price about $30 US. These are available in 2 and 3 inch sizes an are machined as needed to size.Another way to reduce run out and marring is to get a chuck that uses soft jaws. this is a great feature of the little Sherline lathes. 
At one point I was going to build a 5C adapter for the SB but ended up deciding against it.Metalworking book one acualy has two versions of a 5C adapter the Pat Loop collet chuck and a collet adapter by Phil Dulcos. So these can be another work holding tool to add to the mix. IMHO I thnk a bit awkward for a mini. 



Maybe seig or someone will build a tabletop hobby lathe with a #5 headstock. 

Tin


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## BobWarfield (Jul 3, 2009)

Paolo, you'll be amazed at the accuracy you can get from an inexpensive 5C chuck if you take care fitting it to your lathe.

HEre are some thoughts about how to go about it:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCColletChuck.htm

Best,

BW


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## Florian (Jul 3, 2009)

If i had to make a 5c collet cuck for my lathe, i would make it that way: 


http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCWishListBiggerProjects.html
(Scroll down to the fifth project... )

But i don't need to make it because i own a Swiss Schaublin lathe which has the collet cone included in the spindle nose...
Its not working yet; i am preparing to paint it. Then i will have to reassemble it and as soon as i have reassembled it, i will be able to turn with my own lathe ;D

Florian


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## Paolo (Jul 10, 2009)

Hi Florian...
my set of 5C collets is on the way...I'm trying to find a right planetary reduction for doing the magnificent chuck holders as you showed...quite impossible at moment here in Italy..Thanks anyway.
Cheers
Paolo


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## Florian (Jul 10, 2009)

Paolo

I've just seen that you're from italy; I live in Switzerland... 
The planetary gear seems to be from a transmission. Maybe you can find one on ebay or somewhere they repair trucks or cars. Or you may write an email to the guy who made that collet cuck. 

One possibility also is to make the gear by yourself. But you need a rotary table and a rigid mill with a sleeve. 
Of course you wouldn't be able to make helical gearing like that transmission gear on that homepage has...

Florian


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## Paolo (Jul 10, 2009)

Hi Florian
nice to ear that! I went in your country some years ago..but anyway...I'm on the way , after the engine project finishing, to build myself an 5c collet chuck starting from an idea found in a site!
Thanks anyway...
best regards
Paolo


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## Paolo (Aug 5, 2009)

At present time 5C collet set is on my drawer..waiting for...





a Little case built around the rack received as gift from seller...




And the chuck!! Until now I didn't found a planetary transmission so I decided to proceed myself!! I based my project over the Ty Hoeffer Prototype...I made a drawings and started the costruction by two C40 round chunk...Unfortunately I lost a folder with the initial works...Sorry!!
I did completely wrong the internal tread of the rotable part of chuck..so I decided to do it again in a separate collet and after insert it into the collet tightener and silver soldering...




another one...




another view




just after some pickling into Citric Acid..








Ready to assemble...




At first attempt I used tree hinge, like a chuck, but I wasn't able to reduce to "0" the runout due to small lack so I decided to use tree Allen screw with bolt...












Finally the test.....



not bad....



I decided to proceed at some grinding for reaching more precision so I did it using my bore grinder mounted on the late..




This is the result...In the after noon more test will be conduct...


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## ariz (Aug 5, 2009)

Paolo, you're doing a great work with that collet chuck
the runout is enough good now, if you can get a bit better it will be perfect

anyway, I think that now it is already better than many lathe chucks


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## Florian (Aug 5, 2009)

Hi Paolo

Is it that you don't guide the collets cone with anything but the threads? 
I think that can be a reason for some imprecision. 

I would try to make the cone and the actual "body" of the chuck as one piece because this would help avoiding any runout. Especially if you screw the pre-machined chuck to the spindle and then make the fit for the collet shaft(important!!) and also the cone. 

You should be able to push the collets into the spindle but tey need to pinch slightly. Just like a push fit. 

I have seen a chuck here on the board which uses 5c collets and where the collet carrier is made of one piece: 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3870.15

Florian


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## steamer (Aug 5, 2009)

Looking great Paolo....keep at it.

Have you checked the run out of the cone on the chuck?

Collets have run-out too!....the chuck is the one you should care about at this point.....you can't do anything about the collet itself...it is what it is.

Dave


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## Paolo (Aug 5, 2009)

Hi my friends....
Found the origin of the run out!!! the Tread of collet is a little bit out of center due to a different lathe used for doing it!!!
Just removed the bad tread and prepared a new collet!! Same procedure for the other one!!!! Florian nice suggestion maybe I'll ask to joeby the drawings...His collet chuck seams very handy than mine!! The MLA-21 is very expensive for my pocket. 
Dear reggie 
My opinion is based on the literature!! It said the collet are most precise than chuck...and in some case is better lose time for changing the chucks instead losing the pieces as I did a lot of times due at precision lack!!
Best regards
Paolo


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## Paolo (Aug 6, 2009)

shred
I tryed also to use the 3MC on my lathe spindle with draw bar...sometimes is quite difficult to remove the parts from spindle...I had to use the hammer!!! Is that the motif of my new challenge!!!
Thanks
Best regards Paolo


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## Paolo (Oct 1, 2009)

Hello My friends...
I sold my Fervi, as You know, and waiting for the new....Maybe tomorrow it will be at door...I'm not surrender on doing my own collet chuck...I prepared some modification at my project using the advertise received from some of you...!! Sure I'll...but last week I received that... ;D





and just finished that...








I hope soon to post a pics of My own collet chuck and the project in plans section...!!


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## arnoldb (Oct 1, 2009)

Paolo, GO FOR IT!

It is REALLY useful to have a collet chuck for the lathe!

Regards, Arnold


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## Paolo (Oct 2, 2009)

Hi Arnold...
Thanks for supporting me...much better having two..one from China..another one home made.... :big: :big:
Best Regards
Paolo


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## Blogwitch (Oct 2, 2009)

Paolo,

You will find that even though you require a lot more 5C collets to do the same job as say an ER32, 5C is a lot more versatile in what it can do, and available items that they can be used in. There is a plethora of different mountings for 5C.

One main difference is the thru collet fitting. Invariably, with a 5C chuck, you can feed right thru your spindle, wheres with ER, it is usually blocked off if using a standard MT mounted ER collet chuck.

I have fitted a few of these 'cheapo' 5C chucks now, and not one has ever run true. The only real cure is NOT to make it like a Griptru with adjusting screws. That is just moving the problem from one place to another, and also produces a less rigid chuck, plus leaving yourself open to losing accuracy once again, if it decides to go on the move after a bit of heavy machining.

You have basic lathe grinding facilities already. So the way to cure runout in ALL these far eastern chucks is to mount the chuck with a normal backplate, and regrind the nose taper back to true, it is then done once and for all. 
The worst of the ones I have come across had 0.008" TIR, and even though I ground it back to true, I never really liked the closing action of the internal gears (it was of the type that had a circumferential split running thru the key holes, rather than being assembled from the rear), and was recently dumped for use as scrap metal, and a new one fitted and ground up, and that is now perfect, with zero runout using a range of different sized collets.

Blogs


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## steamer (Oct 2, 2009)

Blogs,

I have a Bison 5C and it's spot on. .....it cost a good bit more thant the Cheapo's....but it's worth it.

 I bought it originally for my 10" Atlas, but the new owner didn't want to part with any more cash so it stayed behind

I then was left with a 5C chuck with a 1 1/2 -8 thread with a new 2 1/4-8 spindle!

Well, I also had a clapped out 3 jaw that came with the new lathe, and backing plate fit the register very nicely.

Knowing that the chuck was dead on, and any and all run-out was likely to come from my collets ( .0005" max typically from Lyndex collets and more from the far east collets) I decided to make my Bison adjust true, using the the two existing backing plates as a start.

I am glad I did, as I can now dial in a rogue collet to a fair the well.  I have not had any slip to date but I rarely take heavy roughing cuts with a collet chuck .

Additionally I added 24 index holes for light milling or for use with my filing rest

4 of those holes have clocking screws.  3  8mm bolts lock the chuck in and she has never moved on me...knock on wood.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/P1010194.jpg


http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/P1020140.jpg

Dave


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## Paolo (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi...
I don't know how mine works...I received my lathe just yesterday...I have to rework the backplate for housing it...I'll let you know!!!
Paolo


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## Blogwitch (Oct 6, 2009)

Dave,

When you get to the good quality chucks then they are like comparing chalk to cheese, you are paying for the quality of manufacture, as you well know to your cost.

These cheap far eastern ones are abysmal at times. In fact, when I stripped down the one I discarded, I was surprised the internal collet tightening nut turned at all. They look real nice with their ground finish, but that is only cosmetic. All the assembled parts had no semblance to being either accurately or well made. In fact one of the bevel gear holding pins looked very similar to a piece of cut off 3" nail. Thrown together and given a quick bling job on the outside.

If you are really interested, I will retrieve the parts, and show you how badly it was made.


Blogs


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## steamer (Oct 9, 2009)

Blogwitch  said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> When you get to the good quality chucks then they are like comparing chalk to cheese, you are paying for the quality of manufacture, as you well know to your cost.
> [quote author=Blogwitch link=topic=5376.msg67279#msg67279
> ...


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## Blogwitch (Oct 9, 2009)

Dave,

I think you have picked up the wrong meaning of what I was saying.

With a good quality one, as you have, a griptru is feasible as you would required very little offset, if any, to get it running true. Say one or two thou at the most. 

Whereas with these cheapos being so far out, you have to go back to basics, get them as rigid as you can, and grind back the noses. Because they are so far out, if you tried to put them on a griptru mounting to bring them into running true, they would be way out of balance from the very beginning.

In fact, the worst one actually came with a machined D1-4 mount built in, so couldn't have been fitted onto a griptru if I wanted to.

The three pics below show what had to be done. The first was on strip down and finding out how badly it was made, the second regrinding it back to true and the third was checking at the end.

With my latest one, I fitted a standard chuck to a backplate, and had to regrind the nose again.

What happens to all those people who think they have a good chuck, but don't have the facilities to check or to put it right?

John


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## steamer (Oct 9, 2009)

Hi Blogs,

Oh I agree, if caught there, your approach is not only recommended, but required.

And like a machine tool manufacturer, your chuck will now have an error only as large as the error in the spindle it was ground on.

Dave


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