# A small boiler



## firebird (May 26, 2008)

Hi

This follows on from a topic I started in the " QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS" section entitled "WHAT IS IT" that is currently on page 1 of that section but will move down as time goes on. For those that have just joined in go and take a look at where we are to date to save me the trouble of uploading it again. As a relative newbie to this hobbie this is my first attempt at boiler making so must be considered as experimental and not a set of plans to follow. I'll try to show as many of the mistakes as possible so others may learn from them. (Perhaps mistakes is the wrong word, the path along a steep learning curve may be better). I have decided to make the 'PORKY' style of boiler as I think that will be within my current skill level. Due to work/domestic duties/wife/children etc this project may take a while to complete so bear with me as I often go weeks in between visits to my shop. Anyway I'm going over to photo bucket now to upload some photos, see you all in a while.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 26, 2008)

Hi

Well here we go.

I started by cutting off the other end of the tube and checked the wall thickness at bothe ends and around the circumference and found it to be uniform. I then took some accurate measurements of the internal diametre. To make the end plates I had already decided to make a die and punch and press them into shape. Starting with a couple of pieces of scrap oak approx 6" X 5" x 1 1/2" I marked 2 of the edges to make sure they always go together the same way.







With the two pieces clamped together the centre was marked and the four corners approx 1" in from the sides and drilled right through both pieces with a 1/8" drill while clamped together. The centre hole is for linig up in the lathe






The four corner holes are drilled out to 8mm (sorry about the jump from imperial to metric but I use whatever I have to hand) and counterbored in the bottom of the die to take coach bolts with the threads cut off. These will act as four guides to keep the die and punch in alignment. Two holes were drilled in the base to aid removal.

The die was then mounted on the face plate using a tailstock centre in the centre hole and bolted on using 2 of the corner holes.






A tool was ground up from an old wood chisel to give an internal and external 1/8" radius and mounted at centre height in the tool post.











The die was then machined out taking care to get the diametre exactly right. The shape of tool giving a radius to the corners.






A shallow recess was machined to accurately locate the copper discs. (Shown in later photos)

The punch was first centred on the face plate and bolted on then the face plate removed and the die screwed on to the face plate.






Using the same tool the punch was now turned once again making sure that the diametre is accurate. The copper plate I'm using for the end plates is .080 thick so the punch must be .160 less than the diametre of die. The shape of the tool gives amatching radius on the corner.






A smaller block of oak approx 3 1/8" square was screwed to the face plate and a piece of the .080" copper plate held on to it with double sided sticky tape. Another piece of oak approx 1 1/4" square with its corners rounde off and centred was used with a revolving centre in the tailstock to apply pressure to the copper plate. The copper discs were then turned to size











For coach bolts with the threads cut off were then pressed into the die.











The job moved to where I work cos thats where we have the press. The copper disc was fistly annealed.






Then the disc was placed into the recess in the die and with a few packing pieces was put in the press






Not a great success. Because I had made the die and punch to exact size of the finished end plates it didn't press very well. What I got was a shallow dish. 






Back to the drawing board. Both die and punch were remounted on the face plate and made much deeper so that the copper disc would be pushed right down inside.






Back at work on the press the disc was re annealed and pressed again. This time more successsfully.






Only problem here though I couldn't get the copper out of the die so had to cut a groove to get a screwdriver in to prise it out.











Copper slip grease was used inside the die and punch.

The second pressing resulted in a lip being formed where the cut out was so several re annealings and turning the disc around gave a pretty good end result.











Back home again and the discs remounted on the punch and cleaned up with a parting tool.






After a quick clean up and pickling they look OK.











Cheers


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## BobWarfield (May 26, 2008)

Say, that's a neat project. Always wanted to fool with some die work.

Best,

BW


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## Julian (May 26, 2008)

Hi All,

Just been round to share a beer and the work is excellent. Both fit well and look good..



Julian.


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## Alphawolf45 (May 26, 2008)

Thats awesome, I really mean that .


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## firebird (May 26, 2008)

Hi

Thanks for the nice comments. A couple of things spring to mind. With the copper annealed it pressed very easily. I would think a good bench vice would do the same job. A loose fitting steel disc of say 1/8" thick in the bottom of the die would have made removal of the copper a lot easier. I have a few questions of my own to put to you guys, should I put them in the questions and answers section or carry on here?

Cheers


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## BobWarfield (May 26, 2008)

If they're related, carry on by all means!

BW


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## firebird (May 26, 2008)

Hi

I was going to have a go at making a water guage but at a recent show I bought one for £20.00 along with a small pressure guage.






The glass will need to be cut down a bit obviously.

I need to fit the water guage and provide bushes for the pressure guage, water injector and stays. I'm thinking of fitting two stays, phospher bronze.






Do these positions look right?
Will 1/4" dia. stays be ok.?
Whats the best way of fitting the stays?

Cheers


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## DICKEYBIRD (May 26, 2008)

Great post firebird! Great pics and descriptions of the project.

I'm no tool & die man (or boilermaker either...I just drink 'em when I'm REALLY needin' to relax) but you'll need to make another form tool to get the correct radius on the male part of the die. The inner radius has to be smaller to compensate for the thickness of the material. Draw it out and you'll see what I mean. No criticism meant, just a suggestion.


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## Bogstandard (May 27, 2008)

FB,

I wouldn't worry too much about radii, normally, when you make these, they are made by belting the edges over a male mould with a hammer, and cleaning up afterwards.
Yours will be perfect for the job. Well done.

For all your boiler needs, I would suggest sending Sandy a PM, and ask him to have a look at your post. He makes boilers for a living, and is honestly the best sort of boiler information man I have ever come across. He will let you know what sort of legal requirements are required for your end cap stays, and most probably suggest the best way to fit your sight glass (maybe at an angle, rather than vertical).
If you can't raise him from his deep sleep, I would suggest having a look at his horizontal boiler plans, and scale them up/down to give you the hole distance ratios and positions.

John


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi John

Thanks, I'll give him a nudge now.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi Dickeybird

Thats right the inner radius is smaller than the outer. Bit of a slip up there but John Bogstandard thinks I will be OK as is but its something to remember next time. Like i said I aim to show any mistakes I make and hope others will point out any they spot.

cheers


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## DICKEYBIRD (May 27, 2008)

Right, your finished parts came out great and will work very well. I was just mentioning the differing radii issue in case you do some more. I think it would work better and the finished part may even release easier. Note I said may. 

Please keep posting about this project. It's very interesting. ;D


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## SandyC (May 27, 2008)

;D 

Hi Guys,

Firebird, Sorry I missed your original post and questions, I have had lots of visitors (family etc) over the last couple of weeks (still got some to arrive) so have not had much time to view all the posts.

I must first say you have gone to a great deal of effort to produce the end plates for your boiler and they are looking very professional, well done.
I do mine the way John said.... hammer them over a former wiv a BIG ammer....he he.....I do use metal formers though.

Looking at the photo's, and some of the dimensions marked on the formers,&#160; I have come to the conclusion that the main barrel is 3" OD is this correct?
I am not sure what working pressure you intend to use, however: -

I would suggest that you alter the stay spacing somewhat, and also to increase to 3 stays, in order to give the end plates a more even support....your proposed spacing would leave the centre of the end plates vulnerable to pressure (and therefore likely to bow out).
Your proposed bush layout would certainly work (the vertical water gauge is perfect), however, since you also do not show a steam outlet, I would suggest you add a steam dome (as per my horizontal boiler plans), this will make the end plate less cluttered (possibly aiding final boiler mounting), and with fewer soldered joints.

The stays need only be 3/16" dia (you may even be ok with 1/8" dia depending upon working pressure).

Suitable bush dimensions can also be found on the horizontal boiler plans (you may need to adjust the threads to suit your fittings) but the overall sizes would be common.

I also suggest that you mount a Safety valve in a separate bush located on the top of the barrel at tha opposite end to your steam outlet.

The size and pitch of the conduction stubs is not all that critical, however, there is no advantage to having more than 3/8" extending inside the barrel and 3/8" - 1/2" projecting towards the burner will be more than sufficient.

What I will say is....only fit them over an area much the same as your burner (you have not said what you indend to use for this, but I assume some sort of ceramic type), any more will just be wasted work and materials and serve no useful purpose.

If using a ceramic burner, then make sure you keep a gap of (at the very least) 3/8" between the top of the burner and the end of the stubs, otherwise you may find the burner blows back (due to localised heat reflection) and burns benath the ceramic....not a good thing.

I attach a PDF of a suggested layout that would satisfy your needs and remain safe as far a stresses are concerned.
Hope it helps.

This type of boiler (I know these as HEDGEHOG boilers) is a good first build, being relatively simple (having no internal joints) and will certainly allow you to get the hang of silver soldering if you have never done it before......since even a duff joint can be relatively easily remade, whereas, with a centre flue type you would be hard put to repair a leaking internal tube joint....It can also be quite an efficient boiler for small engines.

When fitting the stays....solder the mushroom head end first, then turn the boiler over and solder the countersunk end.

Keep up the great work and ask away if you need anything else explained.

BTW where are you located?.....I guess the UK, since I spotted the MYFORD.....not to many of thse in the USA.

Best regards.

SandyC&#160; ;D ;D 


PS...John.... I never fall asleep on the job....I just don't wake up in the first place.... Ha Ha.
Thanks for the vote of confidence though.



View attachment Hedgehog boiler detail.pdf


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## AllThumbs (May 27, 2008)

Drilling a hole in the back of the female part of the mold would have made it possible to push out the copper disk from the back.

Eric


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi Sandy

WOW! Thats a load of info for this brain to take in all at once. I will be re reading that several times. Yes 3" diametre is correct. I had it in mind to make a steam dome for the outlet and safety valve but thats a ways down the road yet. One step at a time will do me. I thought a working pressure of 35 psi would be ample for a small engine (not built yet). I intend to make a meths burner as the heat source.
Yes I'm in the UK, in the midlands north of Leicester. Once again many thanks for the help. I'll be back.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi Eric

There are a couple of 8mm holes I drilled in the die but the first pressing was so tight it wouldn't push out. If I had used the grease in the first place that would solved the problem. The second pressing came out easy.


Cheers


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi

I had the day off today (extra day on the bank holiday) the wife went shopping so guess where I went. Today I decided to experiment with a meths burner for the boiler. I think in Q & A section I posted this photo of a burner I saw a guy using at a show and thought I would use the same Idea.






So heres how I got on. This is only an experiment but was good soldering practice. 

A short piece of 22mm copper pipe was used. For this I needed 2 end plates. I decided to make a small punch and die, similar to the boiler, to flange 2 pieces of thin copper, .035" thick.

snip out 2 pieces of copper






File round






Make a punch and die on the lathe in steel. Anneal the copper and press them in the vice






Make a stand out of copper











Make 2 brass bushes threaded 5/16 X 32. Make a brass filler plug. Make a brass tube drilled 1/4" and thread one end 5/16" X 32. Make (for lack of better words) a small brass cup. Make a top for the cup a nice push fit and drill six holes (jets) 1mm. Solder it all together.





























































The first trial didn't go to well. It wouldn't light, so I increased the jet size to 2mm. In the end I used the propane torch to light it! How many eagle eyes have spotted there are in fact only 5 holes. I broke a drill in the last one!






Once it was going it was ok but not brilliant. I figured the brass top has to get hot to vapourise the meths and maybe it was to thick and would not heat up sufficiently so I made a new top from the thin copper sheet.






This worked better but was still difficult to light.






I lit it without the top on. Lit easily and seemed to give a better flame.






Finally I made just a straight tube with a wick and lit it. This seemed to give the best flame of all!






It looks like I will stick to 3 or 4 simple wicks in the final burner.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 27, 2008)

Hi Sandy

Just looked at the PDF you posted for me re boiler end plates. What can I say. Brilliant.

Many thanks

Cheers


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## CrewCab (May 27, 2008)

FB ;D ......... this thread is brilliant, I'm on information overload  ........ and trying to store it away for future use ........... the information you've provided so far is excellent and I've already learnt lots, please keep updating as and when you can .............. Thanks to all 


Dave


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## firebird (May 28, 2008)

Hi

Just a half hour shop time today, long enough to make a jig that will hold and support the boiler end plates when I get to drilling the holes. 2 pieces of scrap. A piece of 12mm ply and a piece of 18mm MDF. The photos should be self explanatory for this.





































cheers


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## firebird (May 28, 2008)

Hi

Whats the best/easiest way to find the centre of a circle? I'm referring to the boiler end plates

Cheers


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## Bogstandard (May 28, 2008)

Just pop them into your outside jaws on the lathe, and just touch on with a centre drill.

John


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## firebird (May 28, 2008)

Thanks John

Easy when you know how aint it.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 29, 2008)

Hi

I was somewhat disappointed with the burner trials the other night so had another go at it tonight. The following photos show the mod. It consists of an additional wick as a pre-heater. The tank had another hole drilled in it close to the mushroom outlet and a brass bush tapped 3/16" x 32 soldered in. A short length of 3/16" brass drilled through 1/8" and threaded one end. The mushroom had its brass tube removed and a longer one soldered in. I drilled the sixth hole in the brass cap next to the broken in drill. The pre-heater tube has just one strand of cotton wick. The wick material by the way I bought at a local market in the form of a mop head for the princely some of £1.00. Should be enough there to last me a while.































The following four photos show the burner being lit. The pre-heater wick lit easily and within 30 seconds the jets had self ignited giving a nice flame.





















I then changed the brass cap with its 2mm holes for the copper cap with its 1mm holes. It still lit very easily but note there seems to be more of a blue colour to the flame and looked to be burning better. Maybe more efficiently with the smaller jets?











Over all a much better trial than the previous one. I will be adopting this type of burner for the boiler. I think the mushroom head could do with being a little larger so that the pre-heater is not on the edge. This rough drawing shows the type of thing I will make.






I'm happy with tonights results. Progress is being made.

Cheers


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## SandyC (May 29, 2008)

;D

Hi Firebird,

You are on the right track with the added pre-heater. As you say, a marked improvement.

Might I suggest, if you are going to build a new burner, to make the jet holes smaller (say No 76 (0.5mm) or even No 80 (0.35mm) dia) and use more of them....say 18.
Also, if you can keep the wall thickness of the mushroom sections down to around 0.020" (0.508mm)then I think you will get a better evaporation of the Meths and a better flame pattern.
You may also find that you can reduce the pre-heat flame level a good bit....i.e.shorten the exposed wick, this will have the advantage of lower overall fuel consumption.

If you look at the version you are trying to emulate, you will see that he has a large number of smaller holes on his burner.

The overall plan for your new, two headed, burner looks good and should work well, possibly with the above additions included....the only thing you will need to be carefull of is that the Meths level in the main tank should not be higher than approx one third - half way up the pre-heater tube, otherwise you may find the meths expands to much in the pre-heater feed tube and will overflow....not good.

I am sure you will eventually find the correct combination.

Returning to your boiler...... I would suggest that you mark a vertical centre line on your end plates (if you have the vee attachment for your combination square you can use this to find the centre of the disk) and then take one end of the mark round the flange (make this the top) and make a good heavy mark on the flange bend.

If you also (using your combination) mark the top centre of the barrel, on the edges, again make good heavy marks, then you can easily line up the end plates with these marks when you fit them.
This will be important, since you need to keep the STAY holes aligned at both ends of the boiler...or you will have a lot of trouble fitting the stays.

If you don't have the vee fitting for your combination, then you can use the same method as for finding the centre...i.e. put it on the lathe...but use a sharp lathe tool to scribe a line across the plate.
Extend this round the flange edge using a scriber, or a stanley knife blade.

To mark the barrel....fit one end plate (just pushed in) and mark one end of the barrel in line with the flange mark.

Place the barrel on a pair of vee blocks with this mark roughly in the horizontal position and lightly clamp it so that it cannot move.
Set a height gauge (or scribing block) to the height of the mark and lightly scribe along the outside of the barrel and round the opposite end.
Enlarge the end marks with a stanley knife blade so that they are easily seen and dont get rubbed off when you come to clean the copper for soldering.

The line marked on the outside of the barrel will become the top centre line along which you can mark the positions for your Dome (if fitted) and safety valve bushes.
Hope this is clear and helps a bit.

Keep up the stirling work.

Best regards.

SandyC ;D


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## firebird (May 30, 2008)

Hi Sandy

      Again many thanks for the invaluable help. After I had posted last nights results it did occur to me that the brass mushroom might be a bit heavy and would be better fabricated from brass/copper sheet. I see what you mean regarding the level of meths in the tank. When I get to the final design I may make the tank shallower or the pre-heater tubes slightly taller. Your method of marking out makes good sense as well. I doubt my small V blocks will be big enough to hold the barrel but we'll see. I hope to get in the shop for a while over the weekend.

Cheers


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## firebird (May 30, 2008)

Hi

 I have a couple of questions.

Dickeybird mentioned radii in an earlier post. it has just occurred to me that when fitting the dome and safety valve bush into the top of the boiler barrel they don't have the same radii. Does this matter? Does silver solder have gap filling properties? The sketch below shows what I mean.






I understand its best to use distilled water in the boiler. We sell de-ionised water at work for topping up car batteries, is that the same as distilled?

Cheers


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## SandyC (May 30, 2008)

Hi Firebird,

No problem, just thought a few pointers would help, as it is your first boiler.

If your v-blocks are to small, you can always try sitting the barrel on your miller table (in the rear tee slot) this will keep the barrel level (which is the point of the exercise) and you can lightly clamp it from the same tee slot., just sufficient to prevent movement.

You can then use your surface gauge on the remaining surface of the table.... VEE HAV ZEE VAYS.

The need for a radius is not necessary for these items, the silver solder (easyflo 2) will run round the joint and form a good fillet.

As for boiler water...NO DO NOT use de-ionised water, especially that sold for batteries (some of these can contain small amounts of sulphuric acid).
Even if it does not contain acid, being de-ionised (by ion exchange resin methods) it will attempt to recover lost ions by extracting the required ones form any bronze and or copper in the boiler (which is most of it) and also from the silver solder.(Which can damage/degrade the solder)

The same can apply to water from a domestic filter/softener, since these often contain ion exchange resins either before or after a carbon element. (BRITA etc).

The best water to use is pure distilled water (obtainable from your local chemist, but can be pricey), failing this you can use REVERSE OSMOSIS water (try your local tropical fish store, they often use for partial water changes in the show tanks (they generally produce it themselves)), next best is well filtered rain water or water recovered from a de-humidifier(domestic) and lastly....cooled, well boiled tap water.

Best regards.

SandyC&#160; ;D ;D  
&#160;


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## Florian (May 30, 2008)

By the way: 

For the steam dome, its better to make some small holes into the boiler tube than one big hole. This prevents the water to be carried along with the steam. 

Florian


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## firebird (May 31, 2008)

Hi

Thanks to Sandy and Florian.

Today I made one end on each of the three stays that will be used in the boiler. The method is described in the PDF attachment from Sandy in one of the above posts. Briefly though anneal the end of the 3/16" dia. phosphor bronze, hold in a collet in the lathe and tap over with a small hammer. Clean up with a file.











Next job is marking out the end plates. Hold in the 3 jaw and lightly mark the centre with a centre drill. Make sure the tool is at centre height and scribe a line across the end plate.
















Mark a line along the boiler barrel. Sandy has suggested another method as well but I hadn't read it so this is what I came up with. Hold the barrel in the lathe and mount the scribe in the cross slide.





















I have an adapter that fits into the rotary table that my myford chuck screws onto. Centre drill a bit of scrap. Unscrew the chuck from the lathe and screw onto the rotary table. Its now easy to centre the rotary table under the mill chuck using the centre drilled hole in the bit of scrap. Lock the table in this position.






Screw the face plate onto the rotary table. Mount the end plates into the jig. Using the centre drilled mark on the end plates centre one end plate under the chuck. then clamp the jig to the face plate.






Now move the cross slide over to the required PCD and using the rotary table drill the 3 stay holes. Move the crosslide again and drill the 2 water guage holes. The drawing by Sandy shows another hole for the water injector. I Haven't fully decided yet whether or not to fit a water feed sytem onto this boiler so I haven't drilled that hole yet. Move the table across and centre under the second plat and drill just 3 holes for the stays and counter sink with a centre drill.
















Finally I made 2 phospher bronze bushhes drilled and tapped 1/4" X 40 for the water guage.











Cheers


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## firebird (May 31, 2008)

Hi

Question time again.

Do you anneal phosphor bronze the same as for copper?. Thats how I did it, heat to red and quench but the phosphor bronze rod was still quite hard.

Do you think the bar I used for the bushes is phospher bronze? The gentleman that sold it to me assured me that it was but it has a colour almost the same as brass. How do you tell?






Florian has suggested drilling small holes for the steam dome but Sandy's plan shows one large hole with a dome machined from solid phosphor bronze?


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## Bogstandard (May 31, 2008)

FB,
That is phos bronze, the usual giveaway is the spiral dark marks down the bar, something to do with how it is cast or drawn.

If I may, I will give you a couple of tips on fitting your water gauge, if Sandy already hasn't told you.

The first is the bushes. Screw each fitting into its respective bush with its little soft copper washer and give them a tweak to tighten. Put a small pop mark on each bush then put the bush and fitting into its respective hole. Turn the fitting and bush in the hole in the direction of tightening until you are about 1/16 of a turn from the required fully tight position. Put a tiny pop mark on the end cap adjacent to the mark on the bush. When you silver solder the bush in, line up the pop marks and solder in that position. Doing that you will be very close to the correct position for putting the fitting in for alignment. After soldering, when you eventually put the fitting in, if it won't tighten all the way to the required position, it is then just a matter of flatting down the copper washer slightly until, when tight, it is in line. Do not overtighten. Also, before final fitting, re anneal the copper washer.
The next tip is measure up your sight glass for diameter and then put it away somewhere safe, Find a bit of rod the same diameter as the glass and use that for all playing about and alignment. The rod should be a nice sliding fit into the two fittings.

Personally I would forget about the top up fitting. When you get a bit more experienced with hand and engine driven pumps, then start to make boilers with top up fittings and clack valves.

It is a few years since I made my last boiler, but it seems that everything is still the same, except for material and fittings costs.

Hope that this has been of use.

John


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## SandyC (May 31, 2008)

;D ;D 

Hi Firebird, John and Florian,

I would say that was SAE660 which is continuouse cast (in a rotating mould, hence the spiral markings) not straight PB102, which is normally solid drawn, and generally much more copper coloured.
Much easier to machine .... and exactly what I use for my bushes etc.

The method John has described for lining up your water gauge bushes prior to soldering is a very good one and his advice about using a piece of rod instead of the glass, when finally aligning the fittings is one I use myself. Gauge glass is all to easy to break and the fittings must be perfectly lined up before attempting to fit the glass...if not...the glass will most certainly break..... TAKE YOUR TIME when performing this task.

You are making excellent progress on your boiler FB, and am pleased you found another method for your marking out...lots of different ways....well done.

I would drill for, and add, the extra bush for a non-return valve, it can always be fitted with a capping plug if you don't use it immediately and is not much extra work at this stage..... but a PITA to add latter.

Florian,

 yes I agree that a set of small holes under the dome would be of help in reducing water transfer and is the more standard way, especially for high output, higher pressure boiler such as for a traction engine or a loco, where the steam would also be possibly passed to a superheater before finally entering a cylinder, in such a case, the minimising of carried over water is much more of an issue, however, 2 reasons I have not mentioned it up to now....

1. this is FB's first attempt at a boiler and keeping it as simple as possible is probably best.
To go down the small holes route would certainly make the manufacture and fitting of the dome a great deal more complicated, and I think FB has enough to get his head round already. MAYBE for the next, more powerful one!!!.

2. For smaller low pressure boilers, with a relatively small dome inner bore I don't really feel it would be of any great advantage, since it is running at low (35psi) pressure and wet steam is going to be the output.
Providing the max water level is not made to high then transfer should be minimal, even with the single hole.

Most of my smaller marine boilers use this method and I have yet to have any complaints on this score.... my higher pressure ones, or water tube boilers (high rate) such as the Scott (see my Avator) use multi small holes and/or internal perforated steam pickup tubes.


Keep up the great work FB.

Best regards.

SandyC ;D ;D


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## firebird (Jun 1, 2008)

Hi

Some more good tips from John and Sandy, thanks.

I've managed to sneak an hour in the shop this morning and checked out the water guage bush alignment. Because the radii of the flange is not as tight as it could be the holes I drilled for the bushes are a little close to the edge the bushes don't sit flat enough so I made this little jig to hopefully hold them square. 2 pieces of equal length 1/4" dia steel. Thread one end 1/4" X 40 to fit bush and drill 3/32" holes in the other end to accept a length of 3/32" stainless steel rod. I will try and mount the fittings in the bushes and mark their positions as you suggest John. I found this company Maidstone-engineering.co.uk who supply a pack of 1/4" copper washers 5 of each size .005 .010 .015 .020 for £3.12, so I think I will get some of those.




































There is still one unanswered question from above, how to anneal phosphor bronze?

Cheers


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## SandyC (Jun 1, 2008)

FB,

Annealing.....You have already done just that, when you did your stay heads.

Heat to dull red and let it cool, or can be quenched in clean water.

It will, just like copper, work harden again when worked.
The material you used for the stays are genuine PB102...you can see the colour difference as compared to the bush material.

The stuff you have used for the bushes (I suspect as being SAE 660 leaded bronze) does not need to be annealed, just turn it using a sharp tool.

After you have cleaned up all the bits with wire wool etc and just before you Silver solder everything, chuck all the bits in the pickle bath for a few minutes to get rid of any grease etc....rinse in clean, cold water....no need to dry them, then flux, assemble, add more flux as required and solder up.

That little jig you have made up should work just fine, but be sure not to over insert the screwed parts into the bushes, they may get stuck with all the heat.
And remember to remove them before you put the boiler in the pickle after soldering...else they will go BLACK and GUNGY and possibly ruin the pickle bath.
One possible small addition to the jig would be to add some small screws in the top to allow you to lock the cross bar once the bushes are correctly aligned....else it may slip whilst heating.

Looking good so far.

Best regards.

SandyC ;D


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## CrewCab (Jun 1, 2008)

Nice work on the jig FB ;D ................ this is a really interesting thread and your doing a great job with the boiler imho .......... please keep it coming 8)

CC


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## Bogstandard (Jun 1, 2008)

I am really glad that Sandy, our resident boiler expert, has deemed to pick up on this post, and give good, knowledgeable & expert advice.

I have seen so many boilers in the past, made from suspect or totally wrong materials. Rather than flanging the ends, I have see them just butt soldered onto the ends of pipes, with no stays to give even a bit of safety. I have seen people testing them to over 100psi using air, with the boiler stuck in a bucket of water to detect leaks. They don't realise just how dangerous these little beasties can be, if not made from the correct materials and using the correct building and testing methods.

So it is nice that there will only be good methods and materials used on this post, and a good guiding light to those who would like to build one.

Nice one gents.

FB, I noticed that the burner you intend to use was soft soldered. When put into the enclosed area under the boiler, the soft solder might not be able to take the build up of heat. Better to be safe than sorry. 
Maybe now would be the time to start gathering the bits together to make your own little brazing hearth and suitable propane torch (I personally wouldn't recommend oxy/acet).
I made my own hearth out of a bit of angle iron and a few firebricks, and is a perfect size for these types of boilers. If you want I can take a few piccies and give dimensions if needed. Much cheaper than buying a ready made one.

John


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## Circlip (Jun 1, 2008)

And don't forget,the radiants from an ex "Gasmiser" are superb for resting the bits on. The pointy bits allow heat to get under the target and also reflect heat. 
  Regards Ian.


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## firebird (Jun 1, 2008)

Hi Sandy, John, Ian

Sandy, Yes a couple of small screws to lock the bar would be a good idea. The further down the road I get with this project the less erors that are allowed to creep in the better.

John, The burner is just an experimental piece but yes the real thing will be silver soldered. I have a propane torch and oxy/acet. Being in the motor trade I have 30 years experience of handling oxy/acet so it holds no problem for me although I intend to do most of the silver soldering with propane. I have a cast iron hearth from an old bar b q that I thought would make a brazing hearth, approx 12" X 18". A couple of pics of yours would be great so I have an idea of how to build.

Ian. "the radiants from an ex "Gasmiser" ? More info please.

Question time again

Is it best to anneal copper/phospher just prior to working it or once annealed does it stay in its annealed state until worked?

I used citric acid in my pickling bath. The sort home brew enthusiasts use for sterilising bottles. It works well but after about 4 weeks it seems to have some slimey stuff in it now. How long does the pickle normally last? 

Cheers


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## te_gui (Jun 1, 2008)

That's a great looking boiler, I have only built steel ones with copper flues expanded in.

Not too be a nit picker but one should be cautious about putting linear scratches (scribed lines) in any pressure vessel, especially thin walled ones such as this. I would use a really light touch and try and polish them out later. 

This being said with a lot of experience in designing high pressure cylinders and doing a fair amount of hoop stress and fatigue analysis calculations, its amazing what a notch factor like a sharp line does to the strength.

Brian


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## firebird (Jun 1, 2008)

Hi Brian.

Thanks, I'll watch that.

cheers


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## SandyC (Jun 1, 2008)

;D

Hi again,

FB.....Citric acid pickle should really be made up by disolving as much as possible into a given volume of water, i.e. saturated solution, this helps a great deal in minimising/eliminating bacterial growth...the normal cause of slimey growth.
I use it myself for most small jobs (I use sulphuric for larger boilers) and find it lasts for months without any degredation from such growths.

You can add a very small capful of domestic bleach, when you make up a new brew...and contrary to the opinion that adding an alkaline substance to an acid (the argument states it ruins the pickle) I have found it does prevent any bacterial growth..... and the very small amount of bleach does not make very much difference to the overall acidity.

Copper and bronze will generally remain in an annealed state (they do gradually return to half hard but over a very long time), the down side is...they are very much more prone to surface damage whilst in this state....I would normally just anneal when required.

Another good hearth material, and very cheap to buy, is thermalit building blocks (obtainable from any good builders merchants) they measure approx 18" x 9" x 4" and are quite soft and easily cut with an old panel saw and half a dozen can form a very good hearth.
My own hearth is made/lined with these and I also have a few broken up ones to pack around items to retain the heat. The last ones I puchased, about a year ago, were less than £1.00 each...very much cheaper than refractory blocks.

Brian, welcome to the mad house.....

Yes you are quite correct and I would not anticipate, or encourage this practice on a high pressure boiler.

The marks applied in this case can, and will, be polished out during the cleaning process prior to silver soldering.

The hoop stress calculations for this boiler shell returned a max safe working pressure of around 96psig allowing a safety factor of 8 and as it will only be used at around one third of this (35psig) there is an added safety factor within the design.

Having said this, deep score marks can, and do, create serious problems so thanks for bringing the point up, as it can very easily be overlooked.

Keep happy guy's.

Best regards,

SandyC   ;D ;D


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 2, 2008)

Wow! Now I am inspired to try my own boiler!

Eric


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## Circlip (Jun 2, 2008)

Oh buns FB, this shows how out of date in todays world of central heating I am. In the good old days of gasfires, Cannon made a model called the Gasmiser. It was an "Open flame" type heater, ie. no glass front and had three "White" fireclay radiants to radiate the heat. On dissassembly these bits slid out, and being a tigh-- FRUGAL Yorkshireman, not only could bits of Brass from the gas fittings be salvaged, but the radiants could be carefully broken and used as a base and be packed round "constructions" to be silver soldered. 
  As Sandy says, Thermalite blocks are easily obtainable but under NO circumstances use normal house bricks, They E X P L O D E when attacked with heat.
 Regards Ian.

 BTW a couple of points you may remember from the "Other" forum, "Sno-paque" or Typewriter (do they still have them??) correction fluid is an effective "Stopper" when Silver Soldering, and don't try to silver solder a joint that's already been soft soldered.


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## firebird (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi

Thanks Sandy, Eric, Ian

Tonight I carried out the little mod on the bush jig suggested By Sandy. Popped them back in the lathe, drilled and tapped 4 BA and a couple of little brass screws.












I decided to fit the bush for a water injector, not because I intend to fit one on this boiler but at some time I will have to look at making a water pump and this little boiler would be the ideal test rig to try it out.






Dug out the old bar-b-q from the bowels of the garden shed and set it up. The base and the 2 sides are cast iron, the back is stainless steel. I threw a 12" rule in to give an idea of size. I think this would make a good brazing hearth. It needs better legs to bring it up to working height. I'm sure I've seen some fire bricks in our local Wilkinsons store. What do you think.






I'll be back in a while with todays questions.

cheers


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## firebird (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi

I Have been thinking about the number and layout of the conduction studs. The studs will be made from 3/16" dia phospher bronze. 4 rows of 9 should do it I think. There are 2 ways of doing it as far as I can see. The diagram below shows the 2 different layouts. Which one looks best do you think?






Cheers


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## Circlip (Jun 3, 2008)

What's wrong with Copper FB? (give us a casual name)Seems an awful waste of PB. Green, saving the planet an all that cr4p like Gordon keeps telling us.  IMHO 2 for burner heat circulation.
  Regards Ian.

 PS. Despite using the frame reduction box at the top of the screen, yer photies are big over here an all :big: :big:


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## Bogstandard (Jun 3, 2008)

FB,

As requested, here are the shots of my brazing hearth.

I actually got the firebricks from a friend, and cut the side pieces to fit the full sized ones on the bottom and back.

Then a bit of angle iron was welded up to make a frame for them to sit in, with risers on the bottom to keep the heat away from my bench, in fact they don't even get warm, and side carrying handles for moving it about.





















The last shot shows it filled with broken firebricks. These are used to reduce the internal size of the hearth and for blocking up the parts. It saves a lot on gas by getting the area reduced, you are reducing the amount of heat lost to air.
This one has been in continual use for the last 15 years.
It is based around a commercial one I saw in a magazine, and this one cost nothing compared to the exhorbitant price they wanted for the advertised one.
There is a resident spider that lives in the left hand riser, and he moves out when I start to do a bit of work, but he is always there next time I come to use it again. His little webs about the place keep the flies out of my coffee.


John

BTW, as Ian says, you would get better heat transfer by using copper for your spikes.


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## SandyC (Jun 3, 2008)

;D

Hi Guy's,

FB,

As John and Ian have correctly stated, copper studs will have a slightly better heat transfer rate, but there really is not much difference with such small components.

Also, since you have already got PB for the stays, it saves having to buy another material just for the studs.

The main reason I suggested PB is that it will stand up better to direct (not in contact with water) heat from the burner...copper will tend to burn away more readily...but there is not much in it.

As for layout...YES I would go with version 2..... better heat transfer pattern...also better from a shell stress point of view.

The old BBQ should make quit a good hearth, but don't make it to much higher.... you will often need to get over the top of things when soldering....such as a larger boiler standing on it's end..... it is better to not have to over reach in this sort of case, or worse still having to stand on a box to get a better view.   

John,

Very nice small hearth.... even better that it is portable....not sure the spider would agree though.....ENFORCED holidays etc. ;D ;D ;D....Dodgy landlord and all that.

Keep happy.

SandyC ;D ;D ;D


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## Circlip (Jun 3, 2008)

Sorry John & Sandy, my comment re Copper was purely from the frugality point of view, but yes more efficient for heat transfer. Due to the relatively low pressure that THIS boiler will be subject to (Given the history of the shell material) wouldn't a heat source capable of burning the pins be a little over enthusiastic? I've a feeling that this one is only a practise session for FB.

 Given the fact you've got a bent wing John, are you making SWMBO cart the hearth about for you?? :big:

   On the frugality stakes, on the turbine build You mentioned the possibility of trying Titanium for the rotor John? Now you've got some SERIOUS Friends if that came as a gift. Having said that, my SWMBO has Titanium locking knobs on her cross stitch frame. : 

  Regards Ian.


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## Bogstandard (Jun 3, 2008)

Sandy,
As you most probably know, my shop is getting a full refurb. Spideys' house is in fact in a new location since I took the pics this morning. So he is officially evicted. But he is quite within his rights, with my blessing, to take up any new non mobile residence in my workshop. I'm not a bad landlord really. Cheap rates and easy to get on with.

Ian,

Yes, I do have an associate who gets me bar end lumps of titanium, and when I was in the aircraft business, I had a lot to do with it when fitting fire integrity systems around engines, but haven't had a lot of machining experience with it, just cutting, drilling and rivetting. So one thing I must try out sometime in the future.

BTW, the bent wing is just a slightly curved one now.

So enough of that, don't want to hijack this great post.

John


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## firebird (Jun 3, 2008)

Hi,

Ian, my name is Rich, I'll sign off with that from now on. I thought it was normal to use nick names so just carried on that way. I'm using PB for the studs cos in my ignorance I thought all boiler fittings had to be. I'll know better next time. (reminder to self, ask more questions)

Can't understand why the photos look big on your screen? They fit fine on my Pc. Is anyone else having trouble viewing photos?

This is why I chose the name Firebird. In the good old days before wife, children, mortgage (not necessarily in that order) this was my pride and joy.






Anyway, back to reality and on with job in hand. 

John, Nice hearth. I think my old barbie will do me nicely for now, the sides fold down and the back slides out so will make storage a lot easier. Just got to get some bricks.

Sandy, thanks again for the info.

Today I turned a bush for the safety valve. Drilled and tapped 5/16" x 32. In your plans Sandy you specify 5/16" x 26? I assume 5/16" x 32 is OK?






Started to turn the dome. On Sandy's plans it gives 7/8" as the dia.The bit of PB I have is just over 1" so I have left it at 1" for now, seems a shame to turn off all that lovely PB and it will give a little extra depth for the tapped holes. Centre drill to start then increase drill size up to 1/2" to about 7/8" depth then used a 1/2" end mill to flatten the bottom of the hole to a depth of 1". Transferred the chuck to the rotary table now set up in the horizontal position to drill the holes for the steam outlets. I haven't turned the 3/4" boss on the bottom of the dome yet. I haven't figured out yet the best way to make the 3/4" hole in the top of the boiler barrel where the dome will fit. (Hint Hint, any ideas). I'll turn the boss to suit the size of the hole.











cheers Rich


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## SandyC (Jun 3, 2008)

;D ;D

Hi all,

FB (RICH),

Nice car.....but a family is much better....would be nice to afford both though.

On second thoughts...with the price of fuel now...I think the wife and kids is cheaper to run.....JUST. ;D ;D ;D :-\

Boiler...

The 5/16" x 32 thread will be Ok, it will just limit your selection of available safety valves.
Not many are made with this thread...most of the ones most suitable for this size boiler ar 5/16" x 26, however, A. J. Reeves (Reeves 2000) do one for 2 1/2" Gauge loco...part number 40/303 which should be suitable.

Blackgates Engineering also do one for the 'Tich' loco which is also suitable.

Failing that, you will have to make your own.


Dome and large hole.....no problem making the dome a bit larger in dia, other than you will have a bigger overhang at the barrel interface. (due to curvature)
If you also make the stub bigger in dia, then you may need to increase the length of it a little to ensure it goes far enough down to close off the sides of the hole in the barrel.

As for drilling the hole..... several options: -

1, best option...drill out as large as you can and then use a boring head (if you have one) on the mill.

2, you could use a hole saw (metal cutting) and clean up with a file.

3, Chain drill and file. (very slow and tedious)

4, use a step drill (available from screwfix) great tool.... does 4 - 22mm in 2mm steps.

or a combination of the above.

I use a combination of 1 and 2 for most of my large holes. (hole saw followed by boring head)

Whichever you choose...remember to clamp the barrel down to the work table.

Just a few ideas.

Keep happy.

Best Regards

SandyC&#160;   ;D


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## CrewCab (Jun 3, 2008)

Nice to meet you Rich  ........... nice motor too .... 8)

My nickname is "vehicle" related too, but best to save that for another thread. Anyway, again .... many thanks to all for this most informative thread, ..... and .... Circlip, 8) ta for the silver soldering tip too.

Cheers 

Dave


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## firebird (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi

Wife and kids cheaper to run? Hmmmmmm. Must look into that one.

I had thought of making the safety myself myself. Perhaps we can go into more detail on that later on. I have a set of step drills, 4mm-32mm that I bought from our local Aldi store for £10.00. What is grocer doing selling engineering tools? I don't know.











I haven't used this type of drill before so I think some practice on a bit of scrap before I attack the boiler barrel will be in order. Any tips on their use would be appreciated

I'm heading into a period of inactivity in the shop so there will be few if any posts after this one for a while. At work saturday morning but Saturday afternoon we are going to the Melton Mowbray and district model engineering society annual show at Whissendine,should be good. Sunday we are going to Alvaston castle in Derbyshire. Its billed as the amateur radio society annual show but there is a lot more. Computers, hardware, software, electrical components, car boot etc etc. Its a good day out. We have been going, Julian and I, for a good number of years now and usually come home with loads of 'very useful stuff'. Next week I'm on a course. As soon as I get back in the shop I'll get posting again.

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Jun 5, 2008)

Rich,

I use exactly the same set, they are great, and indispensible at times.

The major tip when using, mark inside the flute of the size you want to drill with marker pen, and drill very carefully until that bit is in the hole, you can very easily go too far, they are that efficient.

I have used them for short range reamers rather than boring, mine cut perfectly on size.

John


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## firebird (Jun 12, 2008)

Hi

We went to Whissendine on saturday after noon and had a great time. Good bunch of blokes. Ok so far. Sunday we travelled to Derbyshire to Alvaston castle only to find the event had been cancelled. Massive disappointment. Monday and Tuesday had to travel back and forth to a course I had to attend. Got home Tuesday night, the wifes bumped her car. Went into my shop to seek some comfort and chill out a bit. Carried on with the steam dome and promptly drilled and tapped 3 holes in the wrong place. They are not centred. You can see when I milled a recess that its out. What a silly fellow I said. Never mind. Well something along those lines.






It won't affect the function of the dome and as this is my first boiler I may use it to save on valuable materials. I don't know though, it doesn't look right. I'll leave it at the back of the bench for a while.

I bought some thermalite blocks and made a brazing hearth out of the old bar-b-q. Its quite surprising how easy it is to cut them with a rip saw.





















Thats all the progress I've made this week. I've got to strip the bathroom this weekend ready for the builders to move in Monday so I doubt I'll get much futher for a while. SWMBO has to be kept sweet!

Cheers 

Rich


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## ksouers (Jun 12, 2008)

How on Earth did you cut that so straight with a hand saw??

No matter how much care I take to mark out my cuts and line up the saw, I always end up going off mark.


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## zeusrekning (Jun 12, 2008)

Rich, Those holes are supposed to be of center ,right?  
You definately redeamed yourself with the hand saw.

Tim


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## Bogstandard (Jun 13, 2008)

Rich,

Great job on the hearth, that one should last a lifetime.

John


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## CrewCab (Jun 13, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> What a silly fellow I said. Never mind. Well something along those lines.



Glad it's not just me that has "those" moments then ;D

CC


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## BobWarfield (Jun 13, 2008)

Great thread!

I can definitely see a boiler project in my future.

Best,

BW


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## firebird (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi

Nothing done on the boiler today. I decided to make a tool that I have been meaning to make for some time. Very often I will drill a hole (or holes) tapping size in the mill and then have to remove the part to tap the thread. It would be much easier to tap the hole while still set up in the mill, with the chuck still in line with the drilled hole. If some sort of holder/tap wrench could be made I think it would get a lot of use. Briefly this is what I came up with.












I'll post a blow by blow description in the tools section

cheers

rich


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## firebird (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi

Fathers day today so I get to play in the shop. I decided to drill some holes in the boiler barrel. This needs some careful setting up. Firstly I turned a bit of oak to a good fit in the barrel.











The barrel was then mounted in the mill using a rotary table and tail stock using a laser to centre it.











A marker pen in the chuck to give me a line that I can see.






Using the DRO to get the right place 2 holes were bored/drilled for the dome and pressure relief valve. Its the first time I have used a step drill but I got on ok with it. I took a short bit of video, I hope it works.





Cheers

Rich


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## Divided He ad (Jun 15, 2008)

Perfect... Indeed Rich. I like the set up for mounting the tube ;D 

Are those lasers good? 

Are you now a convert to the step drill? I use them allmost every day in work and find them extremely useful.

One of my favourite drills for thin sheet (well they will go through up to 4mm!) 



Ralph.


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## chuck foster (Jun 15, 2008)

i just watched the video and on the second hole you drilled the camera makes the chuck look like it is going one direction and the drill is going the other direction :

by the way i 'm following this post with great intrest and enjoy all the comments and suggestions.one day i hope to find time to build a small boiler, and these posts will be my reference to build it the right way.

keep up the good work and thanks for all the info........

chuck


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## firebird (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi

The step drills are really good. Very clean holes. The set I have is metric and increases in size by 2mm increments, 6 8 10 etc even numbers. If they are available in imperial and odd number metric I'll get them. The laser is brilliant, especially in conjuction with DRO. The main advantage is you don't have to half anything. Wherever the dot is thats the centre line of the quill. It won't replace a dial guage for really fine work but I have used it for most work I do. Its on a 6mm shank so fits in a 6mm collet. If you put it in your chuck you can see quite easily how much runout there is. In use just move the X Y till the laser dot is on the corner (or whatever datum point your using) then zero your dials or DRO. Thats it.

Well tonight I drilled all the holes for the heat transfer studs. Using the same set up in the mill. I'll bore you with a bit of maths, not my favourite subject but I muddle through in my own way.

The boiler diameter is 2.980 inches.
The formulae for finding the circumference is pie X diameter (How do you type the pie symbol on a keyboard?)

Pie = 3.142

3.142 X 2.980 = 9.363 

The circumference is 9.363

Divide 9.363 by 360 (360 degrees in a circle) = .026

1 degree = .026

19 degrees = .494

.494 is near enough to 1/2" for me 






The first step is easy, just turn the rotary table through 180 degrees.

The first row of holes to be drilled is 1/4" off this centre line so turn the rotary table 9 degrees and 30 minutes. set the drill at the first hole and drill. Then wind the X table across 1/2" and drill the next hole, 9 in all spaced at 1/2"






Turn the rotary table through 19 degrees and drill the second row of holes. Note the offset spacing.






Drill rows 3 & 4.











I hope I've explained that well enough.

I just had time to make one of the heat transfer studs.
















My parting off tool is 2mm wide. I have to make 36 of these studs so that will add up to a fair bit of waste. I think I'll set up a stop on the bandsaw and chop off 36 lengths. The length doesn't have to be deadly accurate and they don't need to be faced . Half will be inside the boiler and the external half won't be seen.

Cheers

Rich


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## rangerssteamtoys (Jun 16, 2008)

Looks great, the heat transfer studs are for heating the boiler faster right? This idea is new to me, but almost everything is new to me.


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## firebird (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi Ranger

Yes thats right. If you go over to the questions and answers section and look at 'WHAT IS IT' where this topic started you will find some drawings and more info.

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi

Nothing done in the shop over the last couple of days but I have been thinking about the silver soldering. The sequence I have in mind is to first solder in the 36 heat transfer studs followed by the 2 end plates. Next the 3 stays then the water guage bushes and the injector bush and finally the steam dome and pressure relief valve bush. Any thoughts on that? Would you solder all 36 heat studs in at once or one row at a time?

Going back to the burner Sandy suggested I should make the jet size 0.5 or 0.35. I now have some small drills in that range. Am I right in saying that these small drills need to be used at quite a high speed. Maximum speed on my mills is 2000rpm.

cheers

Rich


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## SandyC (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi Rich,

Looking good so far...... I would assemble the end plates, stays and end bushes first (all as one assembly)... fit the stays with the mushroom heads at the same end as the bushes....apply plenty of flux as you assemble, making sure the end plates are aligned properly..... stand the boiler on some supports which will allow the plain ends of the stays to remain clear of the hearth...... solder the first end around its rim (keep the flame more on the barrel whilst doing this joint, to ensure correct penetration of the solder), and then work your way in towards the stays, soldering the bushes as you come to them..... finally solder the stays.....you can add more flux as you go, should it be necessary.

Allow to cool,enough to handle...turn over and support on the soldered end..... check the second end joints for flux, add more if necessary, and then solder this end...rim first, followed by the stays.

Drop the whole thing in the pickle for a couple of hours, when it has cooled enough to easily handle.

I would next do the studs...... assemble/insert them all at the same time, fluxing as you go and then gently heat up as a whole...this will solidify the flux (boils off the water) then you can concentrate on soldering each row at a time.... keep the flame more towards the barrel, since this will take most of the heat....the studs will heat up more by conduction. 

TIP... if you can source some 0.8mm dia or 1mm dia easy-flo silver solder wire (Blackgates engineering stock it) you can make the job of soldering the studs a bit easier by making small rings of solder with the same ID as the OD of the studs.... slip one over each stud after you have insert it into the shell and fluxed it...push it gently down into the flux, up against the barrel..... these will melt and flow when the correct temperature has been reached...... saves a lot of time and gives less chance of unwanted excess solder running around the barrel.


Finally (after cooling down enough) turn the boiler over, and give the areas around the dome and safety valve bush a good scrub with some oil free steel wool, or med wet and dry, and fit the dome and safety valve bush with plenty of flux..... gently heat up again keeping the torch moving over the outer shell then concentrate the flame more around the bush, followed by the dome...... Allow to cool...drop the whole thing in the pickle and have a beer....you have a boiler.


Small drill are best run as fast as you can...and a peck drilling action (to clear the swarf (chips)) will be best.

Keep happy.

sandyC&#160; ;D ;D ;D


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## firebird (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi Sandy

     Well I pretty much got the whole assembly back to front there didn't I. I'm glad I asked anyway. Always keen to learn from someone who's done it before. I can see I will need at least an uninterrupted afternoon to tackle the soldering so it may have to wait a while. I don't want to rush in and spoil it, not having come this far. I have one of those dremel type tools that runs at very high speed. I'm going to see if I can mount that in the mill for drilling the jet holes. Many thanks for the advise.

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Jun 21, 2008)

Hi

I chopped all the heat transfer studs off in the bandsaw then turned them all to length,3/4".






Then turned half the length, 3/8" down to 5/32".






I have cut the 3 stays to length and cut a thread on the end of each. I'm not sure yet how I will mount the boiler in its frame work. I may well cut the threads off one or two of the stays after they have been silver soldered in but better to have the option now I think.






I have cleaned up all the parts with emery and given the barrel and end plates a quick buff up.






All the parts chucked in the pickling solution.






Does it matter if the parts are left in the pickle till I'm ready to solder?

I'm not happy with the dome with its 'OFFSET HOLES' so I've started to make another.

Cheers 

Rich


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## firebird (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi

I made the new dome today. I'm happy now.
















cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi

I still haven't found enough time to attempt the silver soldering, I'm going to need at least 3 or 4 hours clear to set up and have a go so there has not been any progress with the boiler. I have managed to find half hour here and there so I turned my attention back to the burner, or more precisely how to drill the very small holes, 0.5mm or less, for the jets. I bought some drills ranging in size from 0.4mm up to 1.0mm and had a play with them in my small X1 mill. The o-10mm chuck is a bit cumbersome for these tiny drills and the maximum rpm of 2000 isn't fast enough. The following photo shows what I came up with. Its a Dremmel type tool that I got from B & Q some time ago for £20.00. Its 12 volt, runs off a power supply and has a variable speed of 0- 20000. Its held in a alluminium jig which has a 1/2" stub which fits into a 1/2" collet in the mill. It works a treat. I'll post more photos and a bit of video in the tools section of this forum that shows the component parts.






cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi

Well I finally got to do some silver soldering tonight. I set up the brazing hearth on a cheap workmate type bench. I Cut up a few small pieces of the fire brick to use as stands. I decided to braze in the 3 bushes in the end plate as a first go. All the boiler parts have been in the pickle bath for over a week now so are as clean as they are ever going to be. The end plate and 3 bushes were washed in clean water. I mixed up a little fluxed and coated the holes and surrounding area in the end plate and fitted the 3 bushes. The 2 bushes that will accomodate the water guage were fitted with the alignment jig. The propane torch quickly brought things up to temperature and the silver solder rod touched on. It melted and I could see it run around the bushes.

The bushes set up.






In the brazing hearth






After brazing.











Looking inside the solder has run all round the bush.







After an hour or so in the pickle.











I'll clean out the threads and try the water guage next. If alls well then I'll carry on. 

I'm pleased with that and feel confident now to tackle the next stage of soldering.

Cheers 

Rich


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 7, 2008)

You've got the hang of that Rich.

Nice one

John


----------



## rangerssteamtoys (Jul 7, 2008)

Looks to be a great soldering job. I have some soldering to do on a boiler my self, but thats not for a few days.


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## firebird (Jul 8, 2008)

Hi

I left it in the pickle over night and tonight I ran a tap through the bushes to clean out the threads. I fitted the water gauge top and bottom unions and then fitted the glass tube. It went straight through with no effort at all so the alignment jig worked. I haven't cut the glass to size yet.






Cheers

Rich


----------



## Florian (Jul 8, 2008)

Hi Rich

I would mount the alignment jig again, if you are going to solder the next time, otherwise id didn't help anything. 

Florian


----------



## firebird (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Florian

Yes I intend to use the jig when I do the rest of the soldering. If I didn't they are bound to move.

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Jul 13, 2008)

Hi

Cut both the lawns, built a new garden seat, the wifes gone shopping so I went and soldered my boiler. It took me quite a while to get the end plates set up in the boiler barrel with the jig fitted and the stays in and get everything lined up. Got the whole thing fluxed up and set up in the brazing hearth and set to with the propane torch. Within seconds of the propane torch playing on the boiler it must have expanded a little enough for the end plate to drop inside. Disaster. A few choice words. Dismantle it all again. I gently tapped at the end plate flanges until they were a tighter fit in the barrel then cleaned everything up, re fluxed and set up again. This time more success.

















Turn the boiler over and solder the other end plate and stays











Then back in the pickle for a scrub. Meanwhile I made up some silver solder wire rings by wrapping it round a piece of bar.






Then fluxed and fitted all the studs in.











Then fitted all the silver solder rings over the studs.











Then soldered them all in.






Another scrub up and pickle and then soldered in the dome and the bush for the safety valve.






#






In the pickle again over night. It looks good. I'm quite pleased with that.































Cheers

Rich


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## Mcgyver (Jul 13, 2008)

Looking good Rich


----------



## Bernd (Jul 13, 2008)

Nice job Rich. Hope you don't have any leaks when you do the static pressure test. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. 

Bernd


----------



## Divided He ad (Jul 13, 2008)

Fair do's That looks pretty damn smart    

I hope it all goes well too, I want to see this (millipede-esque) boiler powering a little (or big!) steamer ;D 



Ralph.


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## BobWarfield (Jul 13, 2008)

Kewl!

Are you planning to hydro test it? Please document if so!

Cheers,

BW


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## Bogstandard (Jul 13, 2008)

Lovely work Rich,

For a first boiler, you have shown everyone that it is possible if you take everything in logical step by step stages, boilers can be made to very good standards.

The one you are making here should give you many years of trouble free service.

It also looks like you have got the silver soldering nailed, another very good string to add to your bow. I shouldn't think you will have any trouble pressure testing by looking at the quality of your joints.

Maybe now would be the time to get a full set of blanks made and pressure test it, before you go any further.

If you need some help to make your testing rig, I am sure I have drawings somewhere of the bits you will need to make.

Very well done.

John


----------



## mklotz (Jul 13, 2008)

Allow me to add a request.

Given the number of novitiates among our membership and the extreme importance of pressure testing any pressure vessel, let me implore you to make a photo record of your efforts and present that here so everyone can see how it's done by someone who obviously knows what he is doing.


----------



## chuck foster (Jul 13, 2008)

great idea marv, if i ever get to working on my traction engine i will need to know how to test it and test it properly!!

chuck


----------



## firebird (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi

I must say that without the encouragement and help of everyone on this forum I couldn't have built this little boiler. Theres a long way to go yet so keep the help and advice coming, I really do need it. Thankyou all.

John, are you psychic? Iv'e just come in from the shop having made a full set of bungs. 1 @ 3/16,  5 @ 1/4, and 2 @ 5/16.











Now then, on to pressure testing.

I have a small pressure guage that I know to be fairly accurate, Iv'e checked it against 2 others that are known to be correct.






My idea is to connect the guage to the boiler and firstly try it on air pressure of say 10 or 15 psi and hold it under water, easy to see air bubbles. If alls well I can then hydraulic test it. I mentioned way back early on in the project that I have a bit of kit at work (motor trade) that is used to pump up the hydrolastic suspension as fitted to Rover cars. I believe the first mini's were the first to use this type of suspension followed by the Austin 1100 and 1300 and 1800 then metros, even the latest MGF sports cars have it. Anyway I plan to fill the boiler with the hydrolastic fluid then pump it up to twice the working pressure. I think a working pressure of 30psi will be plenty so a test pressure of 60psi and see if it will hold that pressure for 15 or 20 minutes while checking to see if there are any unwanted lumps or bulges. Then finally a steam test to check that the safety valve blows off at 30psi.

Thats the plan anyway. What do you think?

Cheers 

Rich


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 14, 2008)

Rich,

One thing you should never do, even if it is a very low pressure, is to put air into a boiler to test it. The toy brigade (Mamod, Willesco etc) have a very bad habit of using an adapter to blow air into the boiler and so run their little engines. A very dangerous practice.

If it 'blows' the air is expanding as it escapes. If hydraulically tested, just a couple of drops of water will lose all pressure, so no safety problems.

You can use a very clean piston pump grease gun to apply pressure. That was the way we would charge up liquid spring shock absorbers on aircraft. Using a grease pump, you can get up to 4000 PSI with no problems.

John


----------



## firebird (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi

Thanks John. I'll scrap the air idea and just hydraulic test it. I need to make up an adapter to connnect the pump to the boiler first.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Jul 14, 2008)

Now come on Rich.... MGF 'sports car'? ..... You got to be kiddin!! :big: 
It's a metro with the engine in the boot!! :big: 

A Schrader valve is surely all that is needed to connect a hydrospastic pump up? that green fluid will sure make a pretty fountain if it for some odd reason it leaks!! ( I am assuming that you have 'O' rings on those new bungs? ) 

Personally a tyre valve with the rubber trimmed and wirewheeled off and then silver soldered into one of your new bungs (with a hole in it!!) would be my line of connection. 

But that's me! ;D 

I am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong!? 


I'm getting very interested in this subject. Keep us posted 



Ralph.


----------



## SandyC (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi Rich,

Great job on the boiler.

ON NO account put hydrostatic fluid anywhere near your boiler...... you must only use CLEAN WATER.

If you cant ensure the pump system you are proposing to use is totally cleaned of all oil.... then don't use it...... find a suitable piston type hand pump instead..... such as those used in model steam locomotive tenders for boiler feed.
You will also need to fit a non-return valve between the pump and the boiler.

I believe John said he had some details of a suitable boiler test set..... if not, then I may be able to find some info for a suitable unit..... I will look tomorrow.

Best regards.

Sandy.


----------



## Divided He ad (Jul 14, 2008)

Plot, lost? No I don't think so I've got it here... Well I, erm ... Well I must have, Erm, hold on a mo' it's ... Well I had it a moment ago.... It must have fallen on the floor? I'll P.M. you when I find it! :big: 



Thank you Sandy.... New lesson stored for future build use... 'only clean water' Got it. 

Hopefully Rich see's that before he tries the green nasty stuff!?! 



Ralph.


----------



## doubleboost (Jul 14, 2008)

Minis metros 1300s 1800s ambasadors the allegro the austin maxi the princess happy days
The MGF just look at the front sub frame half way to 4 wheel drive 
Nice boiler by the way 
John


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## Bernd (Jul 14, 2008)

John correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a hydrostatic test of a pressure vessel done in a tank of fluid that messures the displacement of the liquid when said pressure vessel is under pressure. Which I believe checks to see if there are any bulges of the pressure vessel. Also there has been discussion that I've read that when this is done you are actually stressing the pressure vessel every time the test is done.

So basically the test performed on a tank as we would do it is to see if there are leaks, bad solder joints and to see if the pop valves work correctly and not to see if the pressure vessel expands.

Mmmmm! this has got me thinking I need to read up on this subject again.

Bernd


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## chuck foster (Jul 14, 2008)

correct me if i'm wronge but i think if you were to get oil in the boiler it would cause the water to foam ???

chuck


----------



## rake60 (Jul 14, 2008)

OK
Air will compress. Fluids do NOT compress.

If you take 10 cubit feet of air and force it into a space of 1 cubic foot, it WILL go there!
Allow it an escape route and it becomes 10 cubic feet again.
Uncontrolled that can become a force you don't want to be near.

If you take 10 cubic feet of say water, and compress it, the pressure grows, but the volume 
does not decrease. A failure of the containment will result in a spray that a I guy of my age
would be proud of! 
:big:

Look at it this way,
Have you ever hooked up a dry garden hose to the water faucet then squeezed the 
nozzle wide open?
When the compressed air in the hose mixed with water meets the nozzle you'd best be
hanging on tightly. Once that air has been purged the pressure is much more controlable.

There's no difference here.

Rick


----------



## ksouers (Jul 14, 2008)

chuck foster  said:
			
		

> correct me if i'm wronge but i think if you were to get oil in the boiler it would cause the water to foam ???
> 
> chuck


Chuck,
The oil will coat the inside of the boiler preventing the water from conducting the heat away causing a hot spot that could fail. The water in a boiler is actually cooling the shell by absorbing the heat. It only takes a thin film of oil.

We used several methods of removing oil from the water on the tanker I sailed on. Lube oil from the turbines would seep into the steam and had to be removed before heading back to the boilers.


----------



## SandyC (Jul 15, 2008)

Hi Guys,

As has already been stated, oil in a boiler is not good news.

I have uploaded 2 documents to the GENERAL area, they were to big for the normal post buffer.

1 is a drawing of typical test rig set-up.

the other is a description of the test rig and the test method required.

Hope these help clear up any confusion.

Best regards.

Sandy.   ;D ;D


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## Bogstandard (Jul 15, 2008)

Sandy,

Great reference article. Up to your normal and very informative standards.

John


----------



## firebird (Jul 15, 2008)

Hi

Julian rang me at work today (he's on shifts so was off this morning) and said don't bother bringing the hydrolastic kit home until youv'e read your posts. Well Iv'e just read all the posts. Thankyou all for the input. I said earlier what a great forum this is. Ask and you get the answers. I'm going over now to find Sandy's post, see you later.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Jul 15, 2008)

Hi

Just downloaded the boiler test rig from Sandy and printed out a couple of copies. Many thanks Sandy, first class as usual. I'll have a go at building one. Has anybody got drawings for a one way valve and a drain valve. That would be a big help.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 15, 2008)

Rich, if no-one else kicks in, I will go thru some of my workshop papers tomorrow, I am sure I have exactly what you need.

John


----------



## firebird (Jul 15, 2008)

Hi

Managed to sneak a couple of hours out in the shop tonight where I could study the test rig plan from sandy in more detail. It all makes good sense so I'll have a go at building one. It will almost certainly be used again in the future so a good bit of kit to have. Iv'e been through the scrap box and the that'll come in handy one day box and have found most of what I'll need. A bit of research on the pumps shows a clack valve in the pump body. I can see how that works so I'm ok there but if you have any info on one way valves and drain valves John that would be great. Ralph, I hadn't put any seals on the bungs yet just screwed them in to test the fit. I was going to use copper washers, will rubber O rings work ok? To all those that have commented on the quality of Rover cars I was just being polite in case any of you have bought one, Nuf said.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm as green as a green thing about this boiler stuff Rich.... The 'O' ring thing was just a guess! I figured you need to seal it... Copper washers should work, they do on many other applications. Might have to anneal them if loosened though? 

I think I'll shut up soon.... once I get the heel in my mouth too! ;D 



I haven't read the downloads yet, but will have to to keep up! 

Keep us posted,



Ralph.


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## firebird (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi

Looking into clack valves Iv'e had reference to Use O ring clacks rather than ball clacks. Anyone got drawings or a rough sketch.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 18, 2008)

Sorry Rich,

I have searched high and low for my articles on boiler fittings, but can't find them, but I do have a few pics that might get you on your way.

Here is one for an o-ring clack.

John


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## BobWarfield (Jul 18, 2008)

Try this eBay auction: 110270362139

Looks like a very simple mechanism similar in principle to Bog's drawing.

I like this term "clack valve" as opposed to "check valve". Is it a Brit term?

Best,

BW


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 18, 2008)

Bob,

It is I think an English engineering word, and refers to the sound they make when in operation.

John


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## Bogstandard (Jul 18, 2008)

Rich,

These three should see you with almost everything you require.


John


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## Bogstandard (Jul 18, 2008)

And here is the one that wouldn't fit on the last post.

The stop valve can be used for a drain valve as well.

If you need plans for an inline displacement lubricator, let me know, but I think I have done one on here before, but as usual can't remember where.


John


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## firebird (Jul 19, 2008)

Hi John

Excellent, I'm printing that lot out now.

Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Jul 20, 2008)

Rich,

If you can't get the o-rings, graphited packing string will work just as well. In fact I prefer to use it, it tends to give a better seal, as it works over a larger area of the shaft.

John


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## firebird (Jul 21, 2008)

Hi

Just to go back a bit to a question I asked on page 1 about distilled water I have tried all over the place to buy some but every where just sells the de- ionised stuff. Heres what s
Sandy had to say.

As for boiler water...NO DO NOT use de-ionised water, especially that sold for batteries (some of these can contain small amounts of sulphuric acid).
Even if it does not contain acid, being de-ionised (by ion exchange resin methods) it will attempt to recover lost ions by extracting the required ones form any bronze and or copper in the boiler (which is most of it) and also from the silver solder.(Which can damage/degrade the solder)

The same can apply to water from a domestic filter/softener, since these often contain ion exchange resins either before or after a carbon element. (BRITA etc).

The best water to use is pure distilled water (obtainable from your local chemist, but can be pricey), failing this you can use REVERSE OSMOSIS water (try your local tropical fish store, they often use for partial water changes in the show tanks (they generally produce it themselves)), next best is well filtered rain water or water recovered from a de-humidifier(domestic) and lastly....cooled, well boiled tap water.

Can I boil up some water then let it cool as suggested then store it in a container ready for future use?

Would making some kind of still be useful. ( for making water of course )

Cheers

Rich


----------



## rangerssteamtoys (Jul 21, 2008)

Are you in the states? If so distilled water can be bought at a pharmacy (walgreens). Thats where I get all my distilled water. I also collect rain water, Wilesco steam engine instructions say to do this. It works.


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 21, 2008)

Rich,

A lot of people swear by using distilled water. 

I personally, because I come from a moderately soft water area, just used normal tap water, done this for over 30 years and never had a boiler 'fur' up. Guess I am lucky. I have a kettle at home, over ten years old and not one bit of scale in it. 

If you want to go down the distilled route, I have occasionally seen distilled water in supermarkets, for use in steam irons.

If I was you, get yourself a very clean gallon plastic bottle, and boil some water up, when cool pour it in the bottle. You will most probably find a gallon will last a couple of months.
If you start to see scale appearing in your sight glass, clean out the boiler with citric acid (same mix as for silver soldering pickle bath), and look for distilled water.

Always try the easy and cheapest route first.

John


----------



## Cedge (Jul 21, 2008)

John
Would you be so kind as to share the pickle recipe in a dedicated thread? I've missed it along the way, assuming you've posted it before.

Steve


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 21, 2008)

Steve,

Sandy mentioned the mix on his third post on page three of this article.

I do exactly the same, warm water, add citric acid powder while giving a good stir until no more dissolves. That is your saturated solution. I don't use the bleach as Sandy suggests, but there is no harm in trying it. I rather like seeing what grows in mine. Keep it sealed in the wifes' best Tupperware container. 
It will last for ages. Throw it away when the bits won't sink thru the slime, or whatever is in there starts to bite, whichever comes first.

It is safe to put your hands in, just wash them well afterwards. Don't get drips onto any ferrous tooling, instant rust.

John


----------



## BobWarfield (Jul 22, 2008)

FWIW, there are also commercial pickling agents readily available. I've used them when silversmithing and they work well.

Best,

BW


----------



## Julian (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi Guys.

RAINWATER????? We got more of that than anything in this country. I built a shelter for a hottub in the garden and ran the gutter from half the roof into a barrel of 60lts. Less than 2 weeks and its full. I knew I had done this for a reason and now I know. Rich....come and fetch some but we need to know the best way to filter it and how thorough the filter has to be. The first time it rains on my freshly washed car it is covered in a fine film of dirt from the rain. Would an in-line fuel filter work or do I need to remove the wifes tights (from her not me!)

Regards

Julian.


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 22, 2008)

Hey guys,

If using rainwater from a butt, I would suggest syphoning from about halfway down, that way, you should be in the area of least contamination. Using a free flowing inline fuel filter in the line should get rid of the nasties.

Then throw in a load of chemicals and you will have tap water (without the mixed in sewage).

John


----------



## firebird (Jul 22, 2008)

Hi

Rain water it is then. I'll bring a large fuel filter home from work and try it.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## CrewCab (Jul 22, 2008)

If I'm not mistaken, if you defrost your fridge / freezer isn't the resultant fluid distilled water ................. OK I know when I do it we usually end up with a few (used to be) frozen peas in the mix but ......... wth  

I know modern refrigeration equipment is supposed to defrost itself but in my experience, it doesn't always happen. :

CC


----------



## BrianS (Jul 22, 2008)

Also wouldn't distilled water result from a dehumidifier?


----------



## BobWarfield (Jul 22, 2008)

BTW, have you guys seen a distillation rig like people use to make flavor extracts, perfumes, or even liquor in their homes?

I noticed a good one on this site:

FIXED LINK

Do all the distillation you like with a few pots and pans right on the stove top.

I have a Russian sort-of-father-in-law (my brother's in-law) who makes very good vodka in a rig like that.

Cheers,

BW


Edited to try and fix link(

Edited to fix the fixing! - Eric


----------



## Julian (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi Guys,

Be careful using the water from a dehumidifier. The water is contaminated by whatever is in the room. My wifes has one at her shop but the water coming out is gungy and discoloured....its a hairdressers shop and the air is full of chemicals and sprays so passes it on to the humidity that the dehumidifier removes.


Julian


----------



## Bernd (Jul 23, 2008)

Julian  said:
			
		

> My wifes has one at her shop but the water coming out is gungy and discoloured....its a hairdressers shop and the air is full of chemicals and sprays so passes it on to the humidity that the dehumidifier removes.
> Julian



"Wifes"  You got more than one? Just kidding :big: :big:

The prototype railroads used water right out of streams. Although they did add chemicals to the water. Basically you don't want mud or calcium forming in the boiler. 

Particles such as sand, mud and such can be removed by letting it settle in a container and then drawing the cleaner water off the top. If your still in doubt use a coffee filter to get those smaller particles. 

As far as rain water goes, it is distilled if you think about it, evaporation. The rain picks up the dirt as it falls back to the ground. I would use rain water after running it through a coffee filter to get the dirt particles out.

For you guys were it doesn't rain much you'll need to switch to solar power. :big: :big:

Bernd


----------



## firebird (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi

Got some rain water from Julians butt. ( theres got to be a joke or smutty comment in there somewhere ) Got a syphon tube from Wilkinsons as used by beer makers ( less than £2.00 ) and put an in line car fuel filter in. Works a treat, nice clean distilled water.





I'm still working on the hydraulic pump for pressure testing the boiler. I'll post it when it's done and working.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Aug 24, 2008)

Hi

I've not been posting for a while cos I've been to the seaside and have domestic duties to attend to so shop/spare time is sadly lacking at the moment. However, pinching half hours here and there I have managed to get the hydraulic pump finished. This will be used to hydraulic test the boiler when I get time to build a test rig. I searched the internet for info and also had help from you guys here on the forum. After a fair bit of trial and error and some failed attempts and one major disaster ( more on that later ) this is what I came up with. This is the one that works. Its made entirely from bar stock ( there are no castings used ) and has been designed around available materials. It uses predominantly imperial material but there are a couple of metric parts used. I am preparing some drawings and there are photos of the build but you will have to bear with me as time is short at the moment. I'll get them sorted and uploaded as soon as I can.



























Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi

Heres a general arrangement drawing of the pump. A more detailed dimensioned drawing will follow + photos of the build.






Cheers

Rich


----------



## ianjkirby (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi Rich,
 I'm sorry if the answer is buried somewhere in previous posts, but would you mind simply telling us what package you are using for the drawing?
Regards, Ian.


----------



## firebird (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi Ian

I use Coreldraw. Its probably not the best to use for this type of work but I have been using it for years and have got used to it. I have copies of Turbocad and Autocad that I have tried but need to spend some time learning how to use them. 

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi

Heres a detailed and dimensioned drawing. I haven't done too many drawings of this type so I hope its understandable. If theres anything missing let me know and I'll try to amend it.






Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Aug 28, 2008)

Hi Rich, We missed you ;D 

Been waiting to see how you were getting on for ages! Looks like a mighty fine pump you got there... Any idea as to the pressure it will produce? 

I know what you mean about things getting in the way... I am just about to hit the shop for the first time in 2-3 weeks!!!! 

So much to do..... 


Looking forward to the rest, 


Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Aug 28, 2008)

Hi

 Ralph, I have only tried the pump in water and know that it works. I haven't piped it up to a guage yet so don't know how much pressure I can get. Hopefully I will get enough shop time during the next week to try it out. Got to get a laminate floor laid first to keep my good lady happy. Meanwhile heres a few photos.

I printed out a blown up copy of the plan, easier on these old eyes. Heres all the bits laid out on the blown up plan.






The valve body and piston body are turned from 1/2 inch brass round bar as per the drawings.

The piston body is a straight forward turning job. Its 1 1/2 inches long turned down .2 to 3/8 and threaded then drilled through and then reamed with 1/4 inch reamer.

The valve body held in a collet, drilled through. turned to size and threaded.






The part moved to the mill, cross drilled and tapped. An operation not shown (I forgot to take a photo) is to use a 1/2 inch end mill to counter bore to create a flat for the piston body to seat on.





















The valve body is then returned to the lathe, parted off and turned to length. Then bored to the correct depth and tapped.






I played around with several types of valve before settling on this idea. I tried stainless steel balls in plain seats but couldn't get them to seal well enough. Then I tried stainless steel balls on 'O' rings. This worked better but still not well enough for my liking. I tried using light springs made of phospher bronze wire to help keep the balls seated as well. Finally I tried this idea and it worked a treat straight off so this is what I used. This is about as small as my fumbling digits can handle so any future models will have to be bit bigger.

Start with some 1/4 inch round brass in a collet in the lathe and turn as per the drawing.
















Move the part to the rotary table, mounted vertically, In the mill and mill to a triangle.






Return to the lathe and part off.

Back in the mill to mill a 1/16 inch slot across the top. I originally made the valves without the slot but in use the valve would lift and block off the passage.






Make two valves.






More to follow.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## BobWarfield (Aug 29, 2008)

Rich, I love the feedwater pump project!

If I didn't have so many irons in the fire I'd be running out to the shop to make one over this holiday.

Thanks for sharing it. Nice design and it comes out looking very slick.

Best,

BW


----------



## Divided He ad (Aug 29, 2008)

Brilliant build log Rich, I love it when you can see the parts being made and understand the plan better.
Just one question.... What is the item that the brass bar is clamped to on the mill.... looks like an odd vice? 


Keep us posted.


Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi

Thanks for the interest and kind comments. Yes Ralph it is a vice. I picked it up 2 years ago at asteam fair for £20.00. Its extremely solid, has adjustable jib strips and a 'T' slot in the top. Just about the best £20.00 I have ever spent. There is no makers mark on it so I presume it was home made, maybe from a kit? Heres a couple of better photos.












Cheers

Rich


----------



## CrewCab (Aug 29, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Just about the best £20.00 I have ever spent.


 
Think your right ................. C'mon Rich ;D .......... strip it, measure it and let's have a set of plans available before long ............ please ;D :

CC


----------



## BobWarfield (Aug 29, 2008)

The vise is very nice. Almost looks like a lathe slide was adapted. Worth every penny you paid for it I'd say.

BW


----------



## firebird (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi

The pump is mounted in a piece of 5/8 square brass machined to the dimensions shown on the drawing. Not shown in the photos is reaming the 1/2 inch hole after drilling.


























Cut a slot in a 6mm stainless cap head then cut off to make a grub screw.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Aug 30, 2008)

Yep, really like that vice, That 'T' slot could be and looks to be very usefull! 

CC, I think it could be a but much to strip and draw it all..... If you really put your mind to it you could probably figure it out? 
using you current vice as a template and adapting your drawing to include the 'T' slot..... well I know that I would go down that route if I managed to find the time! 

But you use what you have... and mine is working ok at the mo' so no new tooling being built this side of Xmas! Although it has given me another idea... I will asses it and if it is viable I will post it somewhere else... no hijacks here!



Ralph.


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## Circlip (Aug 30, 2008)

Just as an observation and NOT criticism Rich, I found your drawing difficult to read initially cos you've used decimals for everything ( except the threads ) and being brought up on Imperial and then having to become bisexual, I didn't realise what measuring system you'd used. As you are aware, over here,for some unknown reason they teach kiddywinkies Centimetres instead of Millimetres Perhaps the CONCEPT of big numbers is too much for them to appreciate, and initially the dimensions looked like Cm's. but as an ex draughty, and I know you're not, and I I'm NOTcrowing, you would normally use vulgar fractions (no,NOT rude ones) ie. 1 1/2" or 7/8" for bits that are not important, and restrict decimals to them that are.
You have highlighted one problem though, with the increasing use of DRO's It's difficult NOT to have decimals with everything. Again, good build, I would have Silver soldered the pump barrel to the body, but hey, different roads to Rome, and watch the sharp corners with "O" rings.

 Regards Ian.


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## firebird (Aug 30, 2008)

Hi Ian

I see what you mean about vulgar numbers but as you have noted DRO fitted on the machines makes you think that way. I don't do that many drawings and am completely self taught but I'll rememeber in the future. Your suggestion of silver soldering the two parts together brings us nicely onto the major disaster I mentioned above. Thinking that a bead of silver solder would seal the two parts together thats what I did but inexplicably the damn thing melted right before my eyes. A few choice phrases were muttered before I threw it down the shop. After I had calmed down and told myself this is what I do for a hobby and I enjoy it I made the two parts again. I was going to post these photos later and ask for comments but since you mention it. Here they are.





















cheers

Rich


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## Circlip (Aug 30, 2008)

Ouch Rich, that'll teach you not to burn it in future. Vicious flame, again, look round for some ex Gasmiser radiants, you've a lot of free airspace around the target, and turn the wick down a bit. :'(


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi

After the success I had soldering up the boiler I thought I had it cracked, obviously not. Some things can only come with practice and experience I guess.

The piston is made from stainless steel round bar 1/4 inch dia. I had to grind up a small tool, 1/16 wide, to cut the 'O' ring groove.
















Then machine a 1/8 slot.






Then cross drill 1/8.






Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi

The operating lever is 1/4 round stainless steel bar with two flats milled on one end and cross drilled 1/8 and the other end has three slots turned using the small tool I ground for the 'O' ring groove to give a finger grip.











Two brass conecting links made from 1/8 X 1/4 flat brass.






Three pins turned from 3/16 stainless steel round bar. Two @ 3/8 plus thread and one @ 1/4 plus thread. I had some 3mm nyloc nuts so threaded the pins 3mm and used them.











Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi

The pump was assembled using ptfe tape to seal the threads. The pump was then mounted on a strip of aluminium bar with a stainless steel countersunk cap screw.











I made up a couple of brass connectors and soldered them to a length of 1/8 copper pipe. The pipe was first connected to the pump using an 'O' ring to seal it, the pump then stood in a tin baking tray which was filled with filtered rain water. The pump was operated to fill the pipe with water then connected to the guage with an 'O' ring to seal it. The guage I have has a maximum pressure of 80psi but is red lined at 60psi so I pumped the pressure up to 60psi which it held for 20 minutes. The valves in the pump sealing perfectly.
















Heres a video.





Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Aug 31, 2008)

Rich,

It is really good to see someone going thru absolutely everything, from building all parts, right thru to testing.

To those that think boilers can just be knocked up and used, this IS the correct way to go.

By doing it this way, I am sure Rich has learned a lot more in a few months about small boiler and component making, than he could have done in years of reading.

By the time it is finished, Rich will be able to turn around and say 'I have done everything by the book, and as far as I am concerned, the boiler is safe to use', and no one will be able to doubt it.

Very, very well done.

John


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## Circlip (Aug 31, 2008)

Just picked upon the "O Ring" groove Rich, did you get the groove size from tables or is it one that you decided upon cos you'd got the ring ??


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi John

Thanks for that. A little praise and encouragement is always welcome. I have learnt a lot by trying to do it myself. You learn a lot from mistakes and failed attempts but you get there in the end and once you have it the next time gets easier. By the time I have an engine running off this little boiler I will have the confidence to tackle something larger and more complex. Now if I can just win the lottery and take early retirement......................................

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi Circlip

I already had the 'O' rings which have a round section of 1/16 inch (0.0625) so I ground the tool to 1/16 wide and then carefully cut the groove to 0.060 deep so that the 'O' ring is just a shade proud of the piston. I didn't refer to any tables, its pure guesswork I'm afraid but it worked.

cheers

Rich


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## CrewCab (Aug 31, 2008)

Rich 8)
This thread is just an inspiration to us all, so have a little more praise and encouragement on me  ..... plus a little karma : ....... it's not only been educational, it's been an absolute blast to sit down and read your exploits, warts and all .............. I've not only learnt a lot, I've had a good time too so :bow: Thanks Rich ;D

Right ............ : ........... on with the show ;D

CC


PS: did you eventually manage to silver solder the pump body or is it just threaded ................ or have I lot the plot ???


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks CC

Its just screwed together with ptfe tape to make a seal. As you can see from the trial it all held together OK, no leaks and held pressure. Next job is to make a manifold that will accept the pipe from the pump, have the guage mounted on it and an outlet for a pipe to go the boiler. I might also make a tap that will fit into the manifold so that I can release the pressure slowly.


Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Aug 31, 2008)

Rich,

No need for a slow release valve, a couple of drops of water, because of the theoretical incompressibility, will take the boiler from 0 to 80psi, as long as there is no air in there. As soon as you crack a pipe. the pressure will dissipate instantly. No fireworks or explosions, just a drop or two and it is gone.

One less job to do.

John


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## firebird (Aug 31, 2008)

Hi John

Good, one less job to do. Just one question, when I hydraulic test the boiler should I do it with the water guage fitted or blank everything off and test the boiler first?

Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Aug 31, 2008)

Just use the gauge from the off, either in the line or attached to the boiler, it doesn't matter. If it springs a leak anywhere, it won't register anyway.

I always used one that went to 300psi, because a slight push on the pump lever can take your gauge way over its limit, and maybe cause damage to the gauge itself. It all depends on how steady your hand is.

If you can, measure the boiler before, during and after the test in specific areas. Check the OD in a couple of places, and see how much the end plates deform. If you do a few tests, you should see the boiler settle down and not deform any more. If it continues to deform over a few test and gets larger each time, that is a sure sign the gauge isn't thick enough for the pressures you are going to be using. 
You have to remember that you have softened the boiler material while soldering it, and it will take a few deflections to work harden itself back to it's normal state. During that time, expect the boiler to 'stretch' a little.

John


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## Circlip (Sep 1, 2008)

Yep, I thought you'd designed on the fly, and in this application, low duty cycle it's not too important, but if you apply "O" rings for things like piston seals or pressure vessel seals it essential to size the grooves correctly.
 Regards Ian.


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## firebird (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi

This is the setup I am going to use to hydraulic test the boiler. I made a stand for the boiler out of MDF. It will only be used once so I'm not to bothered about any water damage. The boiler is held securely to the stand with a couple of cable ties. I have rigged up a couple of dial indicators, one on top of the barrel and one on the end plate, which will show me how much expansion/movement there is. It remains to seal the plugs, make a pipe to go from the pump to the boiler and mount the guage. I'll have to wait till the weekend to find sufficient time to carry out the test when hopefully all will be well. I'll record the results and let you guys know how I got on.



























Cheers

Rich


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## Julian (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I've seen this pump in person and its impressive. Also it does what it says on the tin.

To Circlip....regarding the o rings. What do you call correctly sized? What tolerences do you suggest? What would be correct dimensions? A 1/16 wide ring surely needs a 1/16 clearance grove. I understand that very little needs to protrude from the groove to give a good seal. Please aswell as stating "..it's essential to size them correctly" give us some hard advice and give numbers. I am sure there are many who would be interested.

Julian

PS not having a go but interested enough to learn more.


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## Bernd (Sep 2, 2008)

Here you go Julian. All you need to know about "O" ring sizing.

http://www.marcorubber.com/sizingchart.htm

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bernd

Woops, wrong chart. Try this one. http://www.marcorubber.com/gd-directory.htm
 Scroll down to "Industrial Groove Design Charts".


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## Julian (Sep 3, 2008)

Many thanks for reference.
Have printed it out as I am soon going to need to do several

Julian


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## Bogstandard (Sep 3, 2008)

Rich,

Very impressive measuring setup. 

I was thinking just wacking a vernier about the boiler when there was pressure in it. Just to get a 'feel' to what the boiler is doing. Yours will do it a lot more accurately.

I must say, that boiler is really now looking the part.

If all goes well that should give you many years of good service.

John


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## Circlip (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks Bernd, you beat me to it and you've obviously had to use the information before. OK Julian, it may seem like criticism, but any advise is given in the name of safety.(See another post raised by Rake {Rick} on this) You should have noticed that I said in my reply that in THIS instance, low duty cycle, it wasn't too important, but I qualified the exceptions. The problem is, that on the side of the pond that this site resides, boiler building is the exception rather than the rule, for operating small engines, compressed air being the norm. Not many on the forum have built their own compressors, so the integrity of design is catered for by the manufacturers, and the designers have to comply with the rules and regs. so Joe public doesn't damage him/herself, litigation and all that. The information for the correct design for "O" ring grooves for whatever application is "out there", one only has to look OR ask and as inconsequential as it may seem, It's to be hoped that whoever designed the brake calipers on your car made good use of the tables for the piston seals to give correct diameter, depth, clearance AND profile.
 Sandy went to a great deal of time and trouble to prove to Rich that the bit of copper tube he had was ok up to a certain pressure, had Rich had a look in one of the readily available ( at OUR side of the pond ) books on model boilermaking,he could have proved it for himself, ( K.N. Harris Model boilers and boilermaking) Another STANDARD work that WE should have on hand is Model engineers handbook by Tubal Cain, and you'll find "O"ring grooves dimensioned in THAT one. Unfortunately, some individual effort is required on own designs to make sure that if copyed no one endangers themselves due to our recalcitrance.
 Regards Ian

PS. not having a go but our hobby CAN be dangerous!


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## Julian (Sep 4, 2008)

Ian, 
Thanks for your comments but my point was merely to say that it would be more helpful so backup comments with some further info. Not just in this case but in many other replies in many other threads people respond with a short sometimes terse reply that with slightly more info would be less terse and more helpful. A hyperlink to a page with further info or just a location is far more helpful and saves a long hard search when the writer already has the search done.
I appreciate what you are trying to say about safety but you are preaching to a safety expert and someone who deals with far more danger than most everyday at work (working amongst 70+mph traffic on the motorway). I agree we have to do it right so anyone copying gets it right and as the forum is for everyone to share info I asked the question about o rings.

Thanks

Julian.


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## firebird (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi
I'm starting to look into the making of a safety valve for the boiler. I've got a couple of design Ideas in mind. One question, can I use 'O' rings instead of balls in the safety valve? Do 'O' rings stand up to steam OK?

Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Sep 4, 2008)

Viton or silicone will withstand the sort of temp and pressure you will be using. Viton is a bit more hard wearing, but silicone seals better because it is softer.

I invariably used phos bronze balls in mine. They are easy to obtain if you want to go down that route.

Amost anything you want relating to steam can be obtained from Blackgates.

http://www.blackgates.co.uk/body_index.html

They don't do web ordering, but the young lady on the other end of the phone is very knowledgeable and helpful.

John


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## firebird (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks John

        I have a selection of 'O' rings so I will have a play with what I have in stock. I also have some bronze wire in various guages to make the spring from.

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi

Well I had most of the afternoon in the workshop today so I got the hydraulic test done on the boiler. I made up another pipe to connect the pump to the boiler. I then sealed all the bungs with ptfe tape and filled the boiler with the filtered rain water through the hole were the pipe from the pump goes. after connecting the pipe the pump was operated until water came out of the top of the dome. The guage pipe was then fitted to the dome and the pump operated again to fill the pipe then finally the guage was fitted.






The two dial indicators were set to zero, the time noted, and the pump operated to bring the pressure up to 10psi. No leaks. The dial indicator readings were recorded. Approximately every 3 to 4 minutes the pressure was increased by 10psi, the readings recorded and the boiler checked for leaks. Finally, after about 20 minutes, with the pressure at 60 psi (double the eventual working pressure) I left the boiler for a further 20 minutes. After this time, I'm pleased to say, the boiler held pressure and had no leaks. I released the pressure by undoing the pipe nut on the pump. Very little water comes out and the guage drops back to zero. I carried out the same test twice more and recorded the results. The dial indicators registered small movements on the top of the boiler and the end plate on the first test but very little by the time the third test was complete. Here are the recorded results.






Heres a video, the sounds a bit iffy in places you will ned to turn the volume up.





All in all quite a successful afternoon. Its been an interesting ride. There has been highs and lows along the way, a few heartaches but mostly joy. I think I can safely say that I now have a boiler. I would like to thank all of you for the help and support you have given me these past months, I couldn't have done it without you. Don't go away though, theres plenty to do yet.

Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Sep 6, 2008)

Rich,

A perfect test, well done.

You have now satisfied not only the authorities (if you were willing to put your name on a test certicate), but you have put your own mind at rest, in the knowledge you now have a perfectly safe boiler.

Plus you now have all the gear to do it any time you want.

There is no need to check for leaks, if you had any, the pressure would have dropped instantly. You most probably saw how little water comes out when you release pressure.

Now onwards and upwards.

John


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## CrewCab (Sep 6, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Its been an interesting ride.



Sure has .......... and a very enjoyable one, thanks for all your efforts in keeping us updated Rich.

Congratulations on the successful test ............ and the whole project 8) ...............  .......... So ........... what's next 

CC


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## firebird (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi

Next..........Ive already started on a safety valve then back to the meths burner then build something for the boiler to sit on then a feed pump and injector and then........................

cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi

I've just finished making and testing a safety valve. Heres a quick video. Its a bit jumpy. I'm afraid operating a camera, pumping and talking all at once is too much for me. I'll do some drawings and post them along with some photos later.





Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Sep 8, 2008)

Rich,

As Selwyn Froggit used to say, 'Magic' or 'Nice one Cyril'

John


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## Mcgyver (Sep 8, 2008)

Rich, looks great, you are inspiring me to do something with that cooper tube I've had sitting around forever. very nice.


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## firebird (Sep 8, 2008)

Thanks John

Firstly a couple of drawings. These are not to engineering standard but should be understandable.
This one is actual size.






This one is enlarged, easier to see.






Turning the valve spindle between centres in the lathe. Made from stainless steel.











Moved to the mill and rotary table to mill the triangle.






The body, lock nut and spindle laid out on the drawing.






The body on the mill in the rotary table using a laser to centre it. You can see the red dot.






4 holes cross drilled.






Milling a slot in the adjuster.






Winding the spring round a 2.7mm drill in the lathe. The spring is made from 26swg bronze wire.
















Cheers

Rich


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## Bernd (Sep 8, 2008)

Very nice detailed description of making that saftey valve Rich. First time ever I've seen the use of an "O"-ring on a saftey valve. Usally they use a stainless steel ball. Very interesting. It'll be interesting to see how it'll work with steam pressure.

Kep up the good work.

Bernd


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## Julian (Sep 9, 2008)

Bern,

The mamods have always used a rubber o ring for the safety valves.

The safety Rich has built is the same as the one I built for my home-made air compressor. That holds 50+psi for as long as I leave it. I agree it is not hot but the pressure is there. I used o rings after several attempts to do the ball method had failed.

Julian.


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## firebird (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi

Just out of interest I pumped up the boiler last night (approx 7pm) to 20psi and left it. 24 hours later (ie 7pm tonight) it had held pressure but had dropped to 10psi. The 'O' rings in the pump and the safety valve held very well. Talking to one of our customers the other day, explaining what I was up to, he said iv'e got one of those guages in my shed I'll let you have it. Isn't that just typical.But it will come in handy next time.












Just one question, why has it got liquid in it?

Cheers

Rich


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## Florian (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi rich

This liquid (i think its glycerine) in the pressure gauge damps any external interferences and also small pressure variations. 

Florian


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## Bernd (Sep 9, 2008)

Your right Florin it's glycerine. It's used to dampen fast pressure flucuations. I believe it also saves the gage incase of over pressure. In other words if you have a 100PSI gage and the pressure hit's 150. The gage won't be damaged or loose it's "0" reading after releasing the pressure. 

Where I used to work we used gages up to 2000PSI on hydrulic units.

Bernd


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## Divided He ad (Sep 10, 2008)

I have to say that I am really impressed with this whole build and thread Rich, so much information and insight into the boiler making process.

I had never really thought of what went into a boiler of this size and above, I knew it would have to be able to take the heat and pressure etc, but not the little bits that go to make it all safe as it can be made.

I really look forward to the firing up vid' and watching the first engine that it powers ;D 



Ralph.


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## firebird (Sep 10, 2008)

Hi

Thanks to Florian, Bernd and Ralph

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 13, 2008)

Hi

With the boiler nearing completion, today I turned my attention back to the burner. If you remember from earlier posts it wasn't too successful but I did learn a lot from those trials. Todays efforts have been far more successful and I now feel I can design and build the burner that will heat the boiler. Heres a video. Photos and a more detailed description will follow shortly.





Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 13, 2008)

Hi

To make the top I needed a disc of copper. After roughly cutting to shape with tin snips it was put in the lathe and turned to size.
















Find the centre of the disc.











Mount on the mill in a rotary tabel and centre. ( I use a laser, you can see the red dot)






Drill 20 0.6mm holes. I described earlier how I mounted a mini drill in the mill.











I figured if I could dome the disc I could get a fan effect on the jets. I turned a punch and die from oak.











And after annealing pressed the disc using the vise.











To make the the cup part I made another punch and die. I cut a disc of copper and turned to size as before. The die is made from oak and the punch is a piece of steel I had that happened to be the right size. After annealing the disc was pressed into a cup.











A brass tube was made from 1/4 brass rod threaded one end and silver soldered into the cup.






Then the top was silver soldered into the cup.






Then fitted with a wick.






The pre heater tube made rom 3/16 brass rod had its hole reduced to 1/16. These are two earlier pre heater tubes.











Assembled in the test tank ready for trial.






Burning away quite happily






Cheers

Rich


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## Bogstandard (Sep 13, 2008)

Now you are cooking with gas, well done that man.

John


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## firebird (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi 

I have finished the burner that will hopefully fire the boiler. Tonight was the first lighting. My usual camera had a flat battery so I used my old one which unfortunately is not so good at video. It records in an mpeg format which doesn't come as good as the avi of my new camera so apologies for the inferioir quality. Photos and more video will follow.





Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi

More obsevations.





Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi

Final observation.





Cheers

Rich


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## CrewCab (Sep 24, 2008)

Rich, 
I don't have an answer, tho' I doubt that's a problem due to the experience available on this forum, the answer will be along shortly I'm sure .............. but' I must confess to being intrigued, ...........  

Thanks for sharing your experiences, top class 8)

CC


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## firebird (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi

I have been playing with the burner a bit more. The pre heater wick tubes were originally driled out 1/16, I have increased this to 3/32. They seem to burn better now. I am going to reduce the height of the pre heater wick tubes as well, there is not quite enough space between the wick and the underside of the jets. I increased the lengthe of wick in the pre heater tubes and in the jet tubes so that there is plenty of wick in the feed tube. I'm going to make an adjustable bung (possibly tapered) to fit into the filler plug breather hole which should give me some adjustment of the flame. Heres another bit of video on abetter camera this time. 





Cheers

Rich


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## CrewCab (Sep 25, 2008)

Rich .............. where do you find the time  ............... 

It's a little difficult to hear your commentary but I think I got the gist. I'm guessing if you block the breather the heat is generating a little pressure, which is finding it's way out by the only other means, the burners, ........... so it does seem a slight degree of control is possible.

The burner nearest the tank seems to be burning slightly better, or perhaps I should say "fiercer" .......... but only a small amount, if it bothers you could that be resolved by using a separate feed to each burner, you could even make the longer one a slightly bigger bore, though that's probably a nad's OTT.

As ever ............. thanks for taking the time to keep us updated ........... this thread could do to be copied, pruned and preserved for posterity 8)

CC


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## firebird (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi

Sorry about the poor sound quality, the camera doesn't pick up my voice too well when I'm behind the camera, I need to get a little tripod for it so i can set it up better. Where do I find the time. I manage to get between 1/2 hour to an hour 2 or 3 nights a week and a couple of hours at the weekend. I try to plan what I am going to do in advance and stick to the plan, that way I find I can get more done. Its too easy to get distracted and go off in diferent directions. Its a shame we have to spend a 1/3 of everyday asleep isn't it.

cheers

Rich


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## CrewCab (Sep 25, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Its a shame we have to spend a 1/3 of everyday asleep isn't it.



Ahhh .............. wise words grasshopper master :big: :bow:

I must get more organised ??? ........ to be fair having a computer in the workshop is useful .............. but I believe it's probably my worst enemy productivity wise 

 CC


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## steamer (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi guys,

Saw this thread and I thought of this stove I saw once made from a soft drink can. Did a search and found the article

http://ygingras.net/b/2007/6/a-better-soda-can-stove

See if that helps a bit....

Dave


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## steamer (Sep 25, 2008)

In reading about vaporizing burners in works published by Cliff Blackstaff, He would stuff his vaporizing tube with wire guaze to increase the area of contact with the fuel thereby more efficiently preheating it.
I wonder if some fiberglass insulation in that burner ala the soda can stove might be of some benefit.
That thing sure puts out some serious heat!
Just speculating.....


Dave


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## firebird (Sep 26, 2008)

Hi Dave

Love the soda can. Also some good ideas there.

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi

Well today was the big day. Steam test on the boiler. I mounted the boiler on an upturned baking tray to keep the heat off the bench. Mounted using the 3 studs formed on the ends of the stays and resting on a saddle at the near end. Julian (Barneydog) came round to assist/observe/advise and play cameraman. I took quite a lot of video which I have had to cut down and split up in order to upload (which may take a while) and photos as well. Heres how I got on.

The boiler mounted on its test stand.












The first piece of video showing the initial set up.





More to follow

Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi

Heres the second part of the video.





Cheers

Rich


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## firebird (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi

You can see from the video that the safety valve didn't work properly. The 'O' ring design worked perfectly on the hydraulic pump with cold water and worked OK with a cold hydraulic test but seemed to be sticking in the relief valve under hot steam pressure. I have made a modification to the relief valve. Do away with the 'O' ring and use a stainless steel ball instead. This is the original design.











This is the modified design.






The only new part is the 5/32 stainless steel ball. The stainless steel valve stem was put back in the lathe had the triangular part turned off. The end was then lightly centred and then touched with a 5/32 drill. A 5/32 stainless steel ball dropped into the brass valve body and with a small punch and hammer the ball was tapped to seat it.

Heres the modified valve.






Under test this worked a lot better.

Heres the last part of the video.





You can see that works a lot better. I expected it to blow off and hold the pressure at a constant 30psi but it drops the pressure to 20psi before it closes off then builds up to 30psi then blows off and drops to 20psi again???????? Any Ideas. 

Cheers

Rich


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## ksouers (Sep 27, 2008)

Um, hook a whistle to it?


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## GailInNM (Sep 27, 2008)

Rich,
You have accidentally constructed a "pop" safety valve where the closing pressure is lower than the opening pressure. I like a little bit of pop action as the valve does not leak when you are close to the pop off pressure, and generally set them up for about a 2 or 3 pound differential between open and close.

What is happening is when the valve starts to open, the 1/8 x 1/4 section of the valve stem is acting like a loose fitting piston and since it has a lot larger area than the section closed off by the ball it has more lifting force. Reduce the diameter of the 1/8 x 1/4 section and that will reduce the differential between the opening and closing of the valve. I does not take a lot of reduction to have a large effect as you are both reducing the area of the section acting like a piston and increasing the clearance so the steam can flow past the stem easier.

Gail in NM,USA


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## steamer (Sep 27, 2008)

Ahhh Gail beat me to it! ;D

He is absolutely correct and I would take it down .005" at a time and graph the results.

A few points on the graph and you will probably be able to predict where you need to be.

I believe the function is annular diameter to the 4th power, so a slight change will make a big difference.

Mklotz if your reading this, Let me know if I am right about the 4th power 

Plot it in EXCEL and use a trend curve and you'll have it....if you know how to ask, it will give you the equation of the line

Its NOT linear thats for sure!....OK I've over engineered it...its a fatal disease and there is no known cure! ;D

Dave


----------



## steamer (Sep 27, 2008)

Oh and more importantly....update the print with the right dimension for the rest of us! ;D

Isn't engineering great! ;D

Dave


----------



## firebird (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi

That makes sense. I'll Strip it and take a few thou off and try again. 

I intend to house the boiler in a frame and plate work with wood cladding over the top. I have a sheet of aluminium 2mm thick Would that be suitable for the plate work.

Cheers 

Rich


----------



## firebird (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi

Heres the construction of the burner. I drew and printed the design for the tank. I printed it out on sticky paper, stuck the paper to the brass sheet theen cut it out.











Drill the hole for the feed tube






Using a sheet metal folder to form the box.






Then silver solder together






Cut a square top, make and silver solder in a threaded bush for the filler bung.






Press 2 copper cups and make 2 discs. The method of pressing was described earlier.






This time I didn't bother to dish the discs as it didn't make any difference to the flame and I silver soldered them into the cups before drilling all the jets.






Now drill the jets











The feed tube mounted in a rotary atble on the mill having the bush holes drilled.






Solder in the bushes, solder the feed tube into the tank and solder the lid onto the tank






Solder in the wick tubes.






I had to make some 3/16 copper washers.











Assembled











Cheers

Rich


----------



## CrewCab (Sep 28, 2008)

:bow: you just make it look so dam easy Rich 8)

Great write up 

CC


----------



## Bernd (Sep 28, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> You can see that works a lot better. I expected it to blow off and hold the pressure at a constant 30psi but it drops the pressure to 20psi before it closes off then builds up to 30psi then blows off and drops to 20psi again???????? Any Ideas.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich



Ya, you need to hook it to a steam engine. The pressure is raising to the pop off and going to the lower setting then popping off again because no steam is being used. This is what should happen if the steam line gets plugged or the engine stops and doesn't use any steam. I'd say your pop valve is working just fine. Once hooked to an engine and the use of constant steam to the engine this shouldn't happen.

Bernd


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## firebird (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi

I took the valve to bits and shaved .005 off the spindle, it now measures .245. A definite improvement, it now drops from 30psi to 22psi so 5 thou has made a difference of 2 psi approx. I'll take another 5 thou off tomorrow and see if that raises it another 2psi.





Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Sep 30, 2008)

Hi 

Shaved the stem down a few thou at a time. At .235 it works perfectly, maintaining 30psi.





Heres the modified drawing.






Seeing as I have a nice little pump I am going to use it to inject water into the boiler. Sandy suggested at the build stage to fit a bush as it would be easier then than later. I'm glad I did now. Can I make an injector based on the safety valve idea, ie ball and spring or is there something else I should know. I asked earlier if 2mm ally plate would be OK to make the boiler housing from but now replies to that question yet so I'll ask again.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Sep 30, 2008)

Well done Rich,

I think you now know a bit more about safety valves.... fun ain't they.

The most important thing about them is that they lift reliably at the set pressure and that the throughput (rate of steam release) is such that the pressure cannot excede 10% above the max operating pressure even with maximum firing rate (burner running flat out).

The device you need for the water pump inlet is a NON-RETURN valve.... it need no springs.
I attach a very rough sketch of the type I use... It does not show dimensions directly, however, it is drawn at 2 x full size so you should be able to measure the main dimensions.

I use a Nitrile rubber ball in mine, since I find these seal more reliably than stainless steel or bronze ones, however, if you wish to try a metal ball then make sure you seat it down with a suitable punch (as you did with the safety valve).

Hope this gives you enough to go on.

Ali will be ok for your outer casing but I suggest that you line the inside with 1/4" thick 'Kaowool' ceramic insulation 
obtainable from 'Blackgates'
Make sure you leave some air holes along the lower outer edges for the burner to breath.


Lastly, when you come to fit the steam outlets for your engines etc, I suggest that you move the safety valve to the centre bush on your boiler.... well away from the steam outlets...and fit the filler plug to the top of the dome. you may get a localised pressure drop in the dome when running the engines whilst the main boiler pressure could be somewhat higher..... GOOD BOILER OPERATING PRACTICE.

Keep up the great work.

Best regards.

Sandy&#160;   ;D


View attachment Non-Return Valve.pdf


----------



## steamer (Sep 30, 2008)

Rick,

Great Job....as I suspected it "taint linea"




Glad you could creep up on it!

Nice job! :bow:



Dave


----------



## firebird (Oct 1, 2008)

Hi Sandy

Thanks again for all your help. I have the non return valve printed out and understand it Ok. Am I right in saying that it is screwed in till vertical then locked in position with the nut. Do I just seal the threads with PTF tape. The safety valve will go in the centre bush as per your drawing, it was easier to fit it there (the highest point) and use it as the filler while I was hydraulic testing and adjusting the pressure valve.

Thanks Dave, I'm afraid your level of maths is a bit beyond me, interesting stuff though.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Oct 1, 2008)

Hi Rich,

Yes you mount it as you have said.

I, personally, don't care much for using PTFE tape on boiler fittings, it often breaks up into small bits inside the boiler (gets cut by the threads) these then float about in the water and can get (and have been found) caught up in steam valves or , worse still, safety valves with the obvious results.

I tend to screw fitting in, with a copper washer fitted, until they are a couple of turns from their final position. I then use a small amount of Loctite 254 (Loc - n - seal) on the last couple of turns of thread and the washer faces, then nip up the fitting (or the fitting lock nut) into it's final position.
Doing it this way eliminates the possibility of the whole threaded length getting jammed in the boiler bush through too much sealant being used.
I find this works every time.

Ok on the revised location for the safety valve...... I had it in mind that you originally planned for the mid-location.... but just thought it of no harm to mention it, just in case you had overlooked it. 

Dave,
I think you will find very few things in this model engines lark follow a linear path, especially when it comes to steam...Ha Ha.

Keep happy.

Best regards.

SandyC&#160; ;D ;D


----------



## steamer (Oct 1, 2008)

Hi Rick,

NOt intended to confuse or bedazzle....just an observation.

Point 1 is where you started diameter wise and the vertical scale shows 10 psi differential

Point 2 is your first reduction in diameter and the resultant 8 psi differential

Point 3 is the last reduction in diameter and the resultant 0 psi differential.

You diameter changed in a straight line ( in blue), but the differential changed in a very non-straight line ( in red) 

SandyC.....few things in steam big or small are linear! :big: Still tons of fun though!


Dave


----------



## firebird (Oct 2, 2008)

Hi Sandy

When I was hydraulic testing the boiler I had copper washers on all the bungs but a couple of them I could not get to seal completely so I used a bit of PTFE tape rolled into a string and that cured the problem. I take your point though that small bits could get inside the boiler. I'll give it a good was out before I use it on an engine. Maybe I should have annealed the copper washers first. If you use lock and seal do the fittings come out OK if they need to be removed for any reason. I have some boiler insulation material, is it fireproof? do you stick it to the inside of the ali case with something?

Hey Dave

Everythings much clearer now ??? ??? ???

Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi Rich,

Using loc-n-seal is just fine as long as you don't go mad with it.

Whatever you do, don't just put it all over the threads..... you just need a small amount on the last turn or two nearest the nut/head/washer...and a little on the washer faces.

I have used it for years and have never had any difficulty removing or replacing fittings.

PTFE tape rolled up and wound round the same location/area of the threads should present no problems with internal break off.... where a lot of users get this wrong is...they wind the tape over the whole thread and then screw the fitting in....the result is the tape gets chewed up and the bits get inside.

Copper washers are supplied ready annealed so shouldn't be a problem.
It may, however, be of some benefit to re-anneal any that are being re-used, since they will have been somewhat compressed and therefore work-hardened.

I always try and use a single washer of at least 0.010" or thicker unless I am adjusting for orientation of say a water gauge fitting, in which case several washers of varying thickness may be required.

'Kaowool' insulation is fireproof and can withstand in excess of 1200deg C.
It is, I believe, a spin off from the space shuttle program...it being a more refined form of one of the ceramic materials tested /developed for the heat shield tiles, however, I believe it did not meet with the mechanical strength requirements it being physically too soft for the intended application...... great heat shielding characteristics though.

I have used the 1/4" thick stuff as a flame shield when silver soldering pipework close to a painted surface with perfect results and not a sign of heat damage to the paintwork. Naturally, I cannot speak of any other brand, since I have not tried any.

It can be held in place using a few small dabs of silicone sealant (this is what I use), or even contact adhesive,,,, if the latter is used, be sure it is fully cured though, before going near a flame source, as this type of adhesive gives of flamable vapours in it's drying stages..... it won't hurt the ceramic, but it don't do the glue much good ;D ;D ;D :'( :'(

Keep happy, keep safe.

Best regards.

Sandy.&#160;


----------



## firebird (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi Sandy

As it happens I only used the PTFE rolled up and under the washer and not wound around the threads so I am safe there. I have started to make the injector one way valve pretty much as per your drawing. I'm going to use a 3/16 stainless steel ball as I have some of those in stock. If I can't get it to seal well enough I can change it for nitrile later.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Circlip (Oct 4, 2008)

When you're trying to get a ball seated make a "Staking" punch, a piece of rod the same diameter as the bore of the valve body, 5/16" in your case, with a centring dimple to locate the ball and only give a LIGHT tap to seat the ball. Then take that ball and throw it away and use a new one and screw the bits together. Many people erroniously think that you need to smash seven shades of s**t out of them to seat them.If it doesn't seat first time you need to recut the seat and try again.
 Regards Ian.


----------



## firebird (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi

I have just finished the injector valve and had to do as you suggested Ian to get the ball to seal. I may look into getting some nitrile balls in stock, I can see that the softer material would seal easier.

I made it pretty much as per Sandy's drawing so I don't thnk any further drawings from me will be necassary.

The body being cross drilled.







The threaded boss trial fitted






Then silver soldered in place.






All the parts.






Assembled











Fitted into the boiler.











Theres a bit of video to follow later.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi

Heres the video of testing the injector.





Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Oct 5, 2008)

;D

Hi Rich,

Excellent job and I am pleased the drawing was of use to you.

Couple of things : -  

1/ I hope you made allowance for the THICK copper washer when you made the top plug..... i.e added the thickness of the washer when cutting the threaded section to correct length to achieve the 1/32" (0.031") ball lift dimension.
If not,it could lift too far and possibly slip sideways and block, or partially block, the inlet when pumping.

The other down side of to much lift is: -
The pressure can get under the ball and hold it open rather than force it closed.

If this does pose a problem then drill the No 2 bore a little deeper(say 1/16" (0.0625") or 3/32" (0.0938")) and make a new plug with a short 1/8" dia extension below the threaded section to adjust the ball lift. The length of the extension will be the same as the extra depth +/- any lift adjustment.

2/  Not being picky but........ now you are a fully fledged member of the LIVE STEAM CLUB...... I feel, as I am sure others do, that it is always better to get used to using the correct terminology, if only to avoid confussion, so please don't take my comment as any sort of critiscism........ 

this device should always be referred to as 'A Non-Return Valve', 'A Clack Valve' or a 'One way Valve', NEVER as an Injector or Injector Valve....... I know what you mean, as do several others on the board, as we have been following your progress. However, if you were perhaps talking to someone outside the board community (who may not know the history) then it is almost certain they could/would get the wrong idea of what you were describing/referring to. 

An INJECTOR is a very specific piece of kit/device, which may or may not require a non-return valve. (Most do)

It does the same job as your pump, however, it uses steam pressure to force water into the boiler.
MOST locomotives and/or Traction engines (model or otherwise) use these devices in addition to/or in conjunction with a manual handpump system. (The latter is generally a Backup system in such cases)

NO you don't want to get into INJECTORS at this stage.... VERY tricky devices ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I look forward to seing the boiler fitted into it's outer casing.

Keep up the good work.

Best Regards.

Sandy   ;D ;D


----------



## firebird (Oct 5, 2008)

Hi Sandy

Yes i did allow for the thickness of the copper washer, In fact I had to knock up a mandril to turn some washers of the correct size, I didn't bother to show that cos I didn't think it would be nec. 

I agree things should be called by their proper name to save confusion, one way valve, one way valve, one way valve, one way valve, one way valve, I think i've got that one now.

Cheers

Rich

PS

The sound of steam is absolutely wonderful


----------



## Circlip (Oct 5, 2008)

Clack valve, Clack valve, Clack valve, and don't be a spoilsport Sandy, I'm itching to see him getting into injectors   :big:


----------



## SandyC (Oct 5, 2008)

??? ??? ??? ???  

But then he'd have to call them non-return valve, non-return valve, non-return valve, clack valve, clack valve, one way valve, one way valve injector valves. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-X :-X : :

So about these INJECTORS......... first you need.....................

    ;D ;D ;D ;D

Fun Here ain't it.

Sandy


----------



## firebird (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi

I have started to make the casing for the boiler, from 3mm ally sheet. I printed out patterns and stuck them to the ally sheet with spray glue.











Cut them out on the band saw, heres the front and back. After squaring up the edges and sizing in the mill the hole was bored in the lathe and the opening for the burner cut out.






The two sides having air holes drilled after squaring up and sizing.






I am thinking of soldering the parts together. I bought some ally solder at a steam fair a couple of years ago but have never got round to trying it. A bit of practice on some of the scrap off cuts first I think. The guy who was demonstrating it made it look very easy ;D ;D We'll see :big: :big:

Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Oct 14, 2008)

;D ;D ;D

Hi Rich,
So pleased you chose to continue posting your progress.

It looks good so far and I am pleased to see you have made plenty of provision for air entry along the lower sides.
Having said that, it might pay you to think about adding some means of closing off, or partially closing, some of them should you need to reduce the air flow in order to balance the flow of hot gasses.
perhaps some rotating baffle plates, for example, on every other hole.

How are you thinking of mounting/securing the pressure vessel?...presumably you are going to make use of the threaded sections on the stays in some way at one end..... if so, then how are you going to support/fix the other end? and what do you plan for top covers/heat/combustion gas exhaust (funnel) etc?

It will be interesting to see if the ALI solder you have actually works.... I bought some a few years back (ALUSOL if I recall correctly) and found it to be very unsatisfactory.... the problem I found was that no matter how well I cleaned/prepared the joint areas, the surfaces oxidised again (a matter of seconds on some grades of Ali) before I could get the job done; leading to a poor adhesion and solder flow. This even occurred if a coat of the special flux was applied immediately after cleaning each section. :'( :'(    

This was, as I say, some years ago so perhaps the latest types have improved capability.
Now if I want Ali joined without screws (a very very rare requirement) I get it TIG welded.

Looking forward to the next instalment.

Best regards.

Sandy.


----------



## firebird (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi Sandy 

Sorry for the delay in answering. I intend to have the boiler stick out through the hole in the back plate by say 1/8 of an inch and fix it to another plate inside the boiler housing using the threaded part of the stays. The top cover will be made from the same ally plate. I will make some baffles to adjust/close off the holes in the sides although I haven't decided yet as to how I will do that. A chimney will be fitted to the front end of the casing. I have some boiler insulation material to line the inside. I hope to get some shop time this weekend.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi Rich, 

I was just catching up on your thread.... Haven't read much of anything for a few weeks!! Well I spotted this.... 





> the hole was bored in the lathe


 And couldn't help but wonder how? I am sure it is obvious to most (face plate or something similar) But I just think it is such an odd shape it would be nice to know if you have any pic's of that process in piccy storage? Or a little description? 
I would have been trying all sorts of stuff to get a hole in there.... Don't know if I would have used or been able to think of using my lathe.... Odd what you don't think you can do on your machines ehh?!

It is looking mighty fine by the way ;D I assume you are very proud of it so far.... I know I would be 8)  


Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Oct 23, 2008)

Hi Ralph

Yes I am quite pleased with the way things are going so far. Ive had a lot of help from the guys here but I'm getting there, slowly but surely. Unfortunately I have no photos of the hole being bored. I usually photograph everything, the camera is at my side always but for some reason I missed this bit. It's straightforward to do though. After marking out I drilled a small hole (1/8) in the centre of the hole to be bored. A sacrificial piece of MDF was fitted to the lathe face plate then the ally plate clamped onto the MDF using the tail stock centre in the 1/8 hole to centre the ally plate. The 1/8 hole was then drill out to 1/2 inch. Finally using a boring bar the hole was opened out to 3 inch and then bit by bit until the boiler would fit through the hole with a little clearance.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Bernd (Oct 23, 2008)

Very well done Rich. Another member learns how to use a face plate. To bad you didn't take any pictures. It sure would have been interesting to see that procedure. I've used it several times myself.

For doing a hole that large what you did works the best. I'm sure some are thinking "hole saw", but when that sucker grabs hold of the work............look out. 

Can't wait to see that boiler finished. 

Regards,
Bernd


----------



## Divided He ad (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Rich. 

The explanation is more than adequate. I have logged it for future reference and am quite happy with the idea ;D

Ain't it nice when you get a bit of help and encouragement from those who know?!  


Ralph.


----------



## max corrigan (Oct 24, 2008)

Rich i sat and went through your little boiler build over the course of two nights and found it brilliantly constructed and with the help from your pix and video narratives superb it was like reading a good book that you don't want to end! got try it myself one day! i felt i just had to add my two penn orth
keep up the good work it inspires us all
Regards Max...........


----------



## firebird (Oct 25, 2008)

Hi Max

A pat on the back is always welcome. Thanks for the encouragement.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Nov 1, 2008)

Hi

I managed a few hours in the shop today so I got some more work done on the boiler housing. I have made the baffles which will open and close the air holes along the bottom. Bit of a b***s up here. The air holes I drilled out 3/8. There is supposed to be a 3/8 gap between each hole. I carefully worked it all out, used the DRO on the mill to drill them all out but sadly the gap between adjacent hole isn't 3/8 its more like 5/16.???? So I had to drill the holes in the baffle to 5/16. Its not a major problem I'm just annoyed with myself for getting a simple bit of working out wrong. Anyway on with job. 2 strips of 3mm ally 5/8 inch wide ( yes I know imperial and metric together) were cut and machined to size and left over long for now. Then the two pieces clamped together in the mill and drilled the 5/16 holes.











The back plate mounted in the mill having two slots cut to accept the baffle.






The othe end of the baffle will be supported by a machined ally saddle.

First mill the slot 5/8 wide and 3mm deep.






Then cut off two pieces in the bandsaw.






Trial fitting to make sure they slide freely.
















The baffle in the open position.






And then closed.











I intend to ally weld all the boiler case together so I spent the last half hour having a practice go at it. Two pieces of 3mm ally were clamped together and placed in the brazing hearth. You can see in the photo the ally welding rod, an old screwdriver and a cigarette lighter. The process is straightforward enough. Heat the ally. Put the rod into flame and melt of a small piece of the rod. With the screwdriver scratch along the joint and work the weld in. For my first attempt it worked really well. The two pieces have ben welded to form a really strong joint.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## Paolo (Nov 2, 2008)

Hi Rich
Please... where did you found that magic rod? I'm interested on welding ally..
Thanks 
Paolo


----------



## firebird (Nov 2, 2008)

Hi Paolo

Go over to the tips and tricks section and look at the topic 'ALLY WELDING' where you will find I have posted the spec sheet. The guy I bought it from was Sweidish I think. If you GOOGLE it I'm sure you could find a local supplier.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Paolo (Nov 2, 2008)

Hi Rich
THANKS!!!
Paolo


----------



## firebird (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi

Got some more work done on the boiler casing today. I was going to mill a 3mm wide slot in some ally bar to make the slideways for the boiler mounting plate but found something I could use in the scrap box. I think they were the glass chanels from a greenhouse. It conveniently has a 3mm slot in one part so I cut out the bit I needed.












And then ally welded them to the inside of the boiler casing.






I drilled and tapped the ends of the baffles to take a 5mm stainless steel cap head. This will prevent the baffle from being pulled out.











Welding the case together is a bit of a juggling act. Holding it square and keeping it held rigid in the hearth. One thing about welding ally, it doesn't change colour as it heats up so you have to remember its hot or you will burn your fingers won't you Rich!!!!!!!































The mounting plate that slides in is marked out and drilled to match the 3 studs in the end of the boiler.






Heres a bit of video that shows how it will fit together.





Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 8, 2008)

I like it! 

Looks like it won't be too long now Rich? 

I like the green house channel find... Most inventive  ;D 

Glad your back... It seems like ages since you last posted.... Or is it me losing track of all time again!?!?  :-\ 


Looking forward to the next phase  


Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi Ralph

No your not losing track of time its me thats not getting a lot of shop time lately. Its funny how you can lose your way sometimes. I had been struggling with the design of the boiler housing for some time. I had spent many nights in the shop just looking at it but every idea I came up with seemed to be more complicated than the previous one. The design for mounting the boiler for example had got to a ridiculous level of hinged and canti levered plates and the baffles consisted of rotating discs and connecting rods etc etc. I just couldn't see the wood for the trees. But in the end the problems were solved, just make the mounting plate removable, make the baffle a sliding bar, simple really. Its all part of the fun though.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 8, 2008)

Well Rich, at least you came to the same conclusion I have.... "All part of the fun" If it were not then I don't know what I would do with all this free time and some damn expensive machinery :big: 


I like the sliding bits, they do exactly what they should! Canti levers and rotating discs with con rods!!!.... You were going for a melt down ehh??! ;D 


I really want to see the full finished product with a little engine attatched.... Not trying to rush you.... Just stating my thoughts  


Ralph.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 8, 2008)

Hey Rich

This is looking good. It is definitely inspiring me to build one. I have my 3" copper tube....


Eric


----------



## firebird (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi

I really want to see the full finished product with a little engine attatched.... Not trying to rush you.... Just stating my thoughts 


Ralph.

Chicken and egg problem. Should I have built the engine first then the boiler?????? or the boiler first then........................................

I have a few ideas about the engine. Soon hopefully.

Cheers

rich


----------



## firebird (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi

Well nobody has spotted the cock up yet. Look at the first 4 photos of the weld up to see if you can find it?????

cheers

Rich


----------



## Shopguy (Nov 9, 2008)

Oops! That looks like something I would do, been there and have done things like that. Did start over or just take it apart? 
Regards Ernie


----------



## firebird (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi Ernie

Why oh why do we do it. You take the greatest of care then go and weld the thing together arse about face.. After a few choose words and a mardy half hour I managed to get it apart and weld it back together in the correct order with minimal damage.

cheers

Rich


----------



## Shopguy (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi Rich
Glad you were able to salvage the work. I think all of us have made similar mistakes putting things together. Inside to the outside, top to bottom, or sides reversed. Does lead to some interesting use of certain descriptive words. However as one chap said if you ain't making mistakes you ain't doin nothin.   Anyway I'm impressed with your design and your draft control looks good. Interested to see it completed. Keep up the good work!
Regards
Ernie


----------



## SandyC (Nov 10, 2008)

;D 

Hey Rich,

It's times like this that you call yourself all sorts of names, most not given, and the vast majority unprintable.... but hey.... weve all been there.

It would be nice to be able to do the 'TOM and JERRY' trick of moving the cutouts around to get them at the right end. ;D ;D ;D

I think your recovery was well done and you can be proud of that..... just think what it would have been like if you had silver soldered the boiler end plates into the wrong end of the barrel.....YES...BEEN there....DONE that.

I do like your solution to the variable air vents, now you need to consider fitting a firehole door which will help them perform more accurately by ensuring that combustion air is drawn through them rather than via the firehole.
Something else to think about!!!.

OK guy's.... for his next trick...RICH will mount his funnel on the outer side of his inner baffle...... JUST KIDDING    ;D ;D ;D

Keep up the great work my friend.

Best regards.

Sandy.

BTW I am very impressed with the ALI soldering/welding.


----------



## Maryak (Nov 10, 2008)

Rich,



			
				SandyC  said:
			
		

> I think your recovery was well done and you can be proud of that.
> 
> BTW I am very impressed with the ALI soldering/welding.



I have never had success welding Al 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I'm more than impressed and very glad you've had a big win 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


----------



## firebird (Nov 10, 2008)

Hi

Its nice to know I'm not the only one capable of monumental cock ups :big: :big: :big:

Now then Sandy (or any one else who can advise) speaking of funnels this rough drawing (not to scale) shows where I intend to mount the funnel. I have no idea how hot gases flow so I need pointing in the right direction. There is a gap at the bottom of the boiler mounting plate, will this be sufficient or should I drill a few holes in it?????. The funnel will be about 1 inch dia.






cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Nov 10, 2008)

OOPS!!!

Hey Rich....I was joking. :-[ :-[ :-[

No you can't fit the funnel like that the inner mounting plate will totaly block the gas flow.

Hot gasses will move upwards under natural convection flow and will be driven faster in that direction by the cold air entering from the lower side damper holes and the draw/draught created by the funnel.
By having the inner mounting plate go all the way to the top you will create a barrier between the gasses and the funnel.

This will trap the gasses in the top of the casing and they will try and flow down the barrier, and the inside skin of the casing, creating a swirl vortex with burnt gasses mixing with fresh cold air, which will give all sorts of problems.
You must have a GOOD, CLEAR, LARGE and FREE path in the upper casing to the base of the funnel. 

A couple of ideas....

1/ move the funnel to the right of the mounting plate or..

2/ shorten the mounting plate by cutting the top away, just leaving the bottom stud holes to support the boiler.

I am assuming the bottom of this plate rests on the damper slide guides to provide support.
I would also cut a large opening in the plate, below the lower stud holes, just leaving a vertical strip at each side to maintain support.
This will ensure maximum free passage for gas flow.

Your funnel should be OK at 1" dia but make it around 10" - 12" high, this will aid in getting a good draw/draught going.

Sorry to dampen your spirits but it has to be I am afraid...... FISIKS IS FISIKS, as they say.

Keep happy.

Best regards.

Sandy


----------



## firebird (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi

No problem Sandy, it all makes sense when its explained clearly and in easily understood terms. So I have modified the boiler mounting plate by cutting away as much as possible while leaving enough to provide rigid support for the boiler. (yes the bottom of the plate does rest on the damper guides)

How it was.






And how it is now.






Refitted in the housing.
















I have found a piece of copper tube, 28mm which is just under 1 1/8 and 10 inch long. Here it is standing on the boiler housing. It looks about right to me. It will polish up pretty well but I would prefer a bit of brass tube, actually thinking about it, Julian has got some ally tube under his bench. Think I'll pay him a social visit tomorrow night.






Cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Nov 12, 2008)

;D ;D

That's got it Rich, well done.

I am pleased my gibberish was of some small help. :-\ :-\

Onwards and Upwards.

Best regards.

Sandy.   ;D


----------



## firebird (Nov 12, 2008)

Hi 

Just paid Julian a visit and scrounged a bit of ally tube, 1 1/4 dia. That looks better. I'll see what i can do with it at the weekend.






Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Nov 15, 2008)

Hi

Got a bit more done on the boiler housing today. I cut out a piece of ally plate for the top. I didn't have any more 3mm so had to use a piece of 4mm. After roughly cutting out on the bandsaw I squared it up in the mill.






The piece of ally tube I scrounged from Julian has cleaned up nicely so I will use that for the funnel. I have made a boss from a piece of 2 inch ally that I will bolt onto the top plate, the funnel then pushes into this boss. Here is the piece mounted in the lathe using the tail stock for additional support.






I turned it down to the same diameter as the funnel using a round form tool to give a nice curve to the corner.






Then turned it down further until the funnel was a snug fit.






Drill out with a 1/2 inch drill.






Then open out with a boring tool.






Parting off with the help of the tail stock a wood block.






Reversed in the chuck and faced.











A trial fit






In the mill on the rotary table having five holes drilled.






Five brass nuts to see what it will look like.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## jack404 (Nov 15, 2008)

Rich,
 i dig the wood end to hold the peice your cutting off with is great! i learned the same from a manual
the fairburn trade arts manual ( RAF trade skills training book) must be on your reading list as well
pipe centres can mark or bend the work and wood , well it works for me too

good to see i'm not the only "crazy" doing this

i and really enjoying your boiler build and looking forward to when you get it fired up 

cheers

jack


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 16, 2008)

Excellent thread and I really like your photo's. Nearer the end than the beginning now eh


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## firebird (Nov 16, 2008)

Hi

Yes the end is in sight but all those last little bits seem to take forever. I don't really like to mention this but Xmas is rapidly approaching and as it does I get less and less time in the workshop so the end stretches out. Its nice to see it taking final shape though.

Cheers

Rich.


----------



## firebird (Nov 17, 2008)

Hi

Tonight I marked out the top plate and drilled 5 holes using the funnel base as a drilling guide. The holes have been drilled with a #37 drill which is the tapping size drill for 5BA. (The brass nuts I am using are 5BA).







The top plate moved to the mill and centred using a laser. The plate has been raised away from the mill table using old car wheel bearings as spacers.











The hole is then drilled using a step drill up to 24mm. The step drill went through the ally plate very easily.

An action shot.






The hole drilled.






Making some 5BA studs in the lathe.






The finished studs.






Tapping the top plate in the tapping stand.






The studs fitted.






And assembled with brass nuts and washers.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi

The boiler case wasn't quite flat on its top and bottom edges so I mounted it in the mill and skimmed a few thou of both faces.











Sandy made a suggestion about a firehole door.

I do like your solution to the variable air vents, now you need to consider fitting a firehole door which will help them perform more accurately by ensuring that combustion air is drawn through them rather than via the firehole.
Something else to think about!!!.

Well.............................OK................ go on then.






I started on the doors by making the hinges first. While figuring out how to make the hinges it suddnely came to me why not use readily available brass door hinges.






Knock the pin out.






Screw the halves to a scrap of wood and chop off the bits in the bandsaw.
















I had to make a little jig to hold them so I could machine them all to size.































Two pieces of 3 mm ally plate held together in the mill and machined to size.






Then held side by side in the mill. Wheel bearings used as spacers and drilled out with a step drill.
















Drill 1/16 holes in the hinges and the doors.











And then rivet them to the doors.






I countersunk the holes on the back of the doors so the rivets would lie flush.











Mount the other half of the brass hinge in the mill and machine out.











Once they have been cut out all the hinge pin holes were drilled out to 3/32. I have some 3/32 stainless steel to use for the pins. Slide some 3/32 through the hinges and clamp the door and hinges in the mill and drill out to accept 5BA.






Make some 5BA pins from stainless steel.





















The hinge pins are 3/32 stainless steel with a small 1/8 stainless steel cap pressed on one end.






The pins just push in from the top.

They need to be polished up now to finish them off

A bit of video.





Cheers

Rich


----------



## Maryak (Nov 23, 2008)

Rich,

Great work and great innovation with the hinges. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I have learned many things following your thread about this boiler.

Thank you for your posts, keep em coming please.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## firebird (Nov 24, 2008)

Hi

Thanks Bob, I do have very occasional flashes of insperation. I often think to myself " Iv'e seen something like that somewhere" but can never remember where, then after many hours of machining I remember when its too late.

Tonight I drilled 2 holes, one for the steam dome and one for the relief valve in the boiler housing top plate. It took less than a minute to actually drill the holes but nearly half an hour to set it up. I must have checked and double checked about ten times before drilling. For some reason I had convinced myself I was wrong somewhere but couldn't see it. In the end I drew it out on a piece of paper and then cut the holes out with scissors to make sure. Old age and paranoia creeping in I guess. Any way I'm glad to say it all worked out.





















Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 27, 2008)

Nice work Rich! 

I haven't been on much recently, so it's nice to find a whole load of pictures to see how good your boiler is doing ;D

I really like the doors. (step drills rule!!!  ) Very inovative with the hinges. 

I like your way of fixing the hinges too, some of us (Me) would have probably used screws.... Lazy I suppose! 

Not long now till it's in full working order it seems? 

Good to see it all taking shape.



Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi

A bit more work on the boiler housing today. To secure the top plate to the main housing I have cut 2 strips of 3mm ally and welded them to the insides of housing. They have to get round the slides for the boiler mounting plate which meant milling a little out of them. I decided to weld them in first and then mill the cut out for the boiler mounting plate, much easier to hold one long piece while welding. I will make some 5mm stainless steel studs and fit them with stainless steel dome nuts which I already have. Now that the plates have been welded in the boiler has to be inserted from the bottom.

Milling out the plates.






Clamped to the housing.






Then welded in.






Followed by the other side.






Milling the slots to clear the boiler mounting plate slide.






Drilling six 5mm holes in the top plate.






How it looks so far.
















Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 2, 2008)

Hi

I'm getting towards the point where I will have to fit the boiler fittings, water guage, pressure guage etc. Looking at various boiler setups the pipe to the pressure guage goes down in a loop then back up again. Is this the way to do it?

Cheers


Rich


----------



## max corrigan (Dec 2, 2008)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I'm getting towards the point where I will have to fit the boiler fittings, water guage, pressure guage etc. Looking at various boiler setups the pipe to the pressure guage goes down in a loop then back up again. Is this the way to do it?
> 
> ...


----------



## ksouers (Dec 2, 2008)

Simple, the "U" bend is to allow for expansion of the pipe as it warms up. The assumption is that the gauge is hard mounted, meaning it won't move. If it was just a straight pipe it would try to force the gauge off it's mounting as it expands from the heat. You will also often see a circular loop for the same purpose.

You may find that trick useful in other plumbing situations. It is used frequently in long runs that may force joints or mounting structures to break if pushed too much.

Kevin


----------



## shred (Dec 2, 2008)

As I understand it the idea is to have some steam condense in there into water, so as not to subject the pressure gauge to continuous hot steam.

So sayeth Martin Evans in his Manual of Steam Locomotive Construction (what I have right handy for some reason) "[the pressure gauge] must be fitted to a U or syphon pipe to protect the internal mechanism from unnecessary heat"


----------



## SandyC (Dec 3, 2008)

NAH!... looks like a load of rubbish........ the gap at the top of the doors is 5thou wider than the bottom and you have lost the damper bars.......... yer just can't get the staff these days... ;D ;D   :big: :big:

Just kidding Rich.... super job, well done indead.

Yes you must use a U - tube or a loop tube between the boiler dome and the pressure gauge. (also known as a syphon).

The primary reason is, as Shred say's, to allow a water column to form (via condensation of water vapour/steam during the boiler warm up period) in the tube to buffer the pressure gauge from the direct heat of the steam, which could otherwise damage the internals of the gauge.
On the small types of gauges generally used for models the BORDON tube mechanism, inside the gauge, is soft soldered (silver solder is to stiff) and direct steam heat can, and will, damage this.

The second reason is, as Kevin has stated and would normally employ the full loop type of tube, to allow the tube to expand when used with a panel mounted (fixed) gauge without the gauge mounting being placed under stress.

I find a tube of around 3" - 4" x 1/8" OD copper is sufficient for pressure/temperature up to around 45psi.
The tube should be in free circulating air and should not be lagged/insulated.

Do you intend to paint the outside of the casing?

Looking forward to seeing the finished and running boiler.

Very best regards.

Sandy.


----------



## firebird (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi

thanks for the answers gentlemen, that makes sense, I see now why it needs a loop. Sandy has asked if I will be painting the casing. I don't think I will Sandy. During all the ally welding considerable heat was applied to melt the weld from a propane torch. Much more heat than will be produced by the spirit burner. The casing hasn't discoloured or tarnished or suffered in any way so I will leave it as is for now. I have no idea what grade of ally plate it is, I picked it up as an offcut at a steam fair. I hope to get a bit more done this weekend so I will keep you all posted.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## ChooChooMike (Dec 4, 2008)

I've always wondered about those loops on steam pressure gauges I see in locomotives. Now makes perfect sense ! Same thing with the syphon on small gauges like from PM Research.

http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=117






Learn something new everyday !!


----------



## firebird (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi


Just two quick questions. Do the little pipe nipples have to be silver soldered on to the pipe or can they be soft soldered? secondly how do I mount the small pressure guage, there doesn't appear to be any way I can fix a bracket to it.?

cheers

Rich


----------



## SandyC (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi Rich,

SILVER solder.... there is NO PLACE for soft solder where steam joints are concerned.

Counter bore the tube about 1/8" deep for the small stub on the nipple (a good close fit) and then keep the heat more on the copper tube (the small nipple stubs melt very easily if you direct the flame on them too much) and use small (0.5mm or 0.8mm) silver solder wire to make the joint. (Available from 'BLACKGATES ENGINEERING')
Make sure you have the fitting nut in place before you solder the stub.

 If your gauge is of the 1/2" dia - 3/4" dia type then the syphon tube is quite stiff enough to support it, you don't need a bracket.

Having said this.... these gauges are available with a mounting flange if you prefer that type of mounting in which case you would be better to use a full loop type tube rather than a U-tube.

Keep up the good work.

Best regards.

Sandy.&#160;    ;D


----------



## firebird (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi Sandy,

I thought silver solder would be the way but best to ask first. I have melted brass parts already ( see earlier posts re the hydraulic pump) so I am wary of that. I bought one of those small torches that is filled with cigarette lighter gas and have practised silver soldering small parts together with that. I already have the small guage so will do as you suggest and just mount it on the pipe.

cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 7, 2008)

Hi

Not much shop time this weekend due to the iminent arrival of a certain Mr. Clause but long enough to sort out the fixing for the top plate. Six studs were needed which I originally was going to fit with 4mm stainless steel dome nuts but it didn't look quite right. After a littlle thought I decided to turn some little stainless steel pillars that were cross drilled to accept 1/16 brass rod that would look like a hand rail. Because the studs can't be seen I used 4 mm stainless steel cap heads locked in place with a nut. They are long enough to give me about 3mm of thread to screw the pillars onto.

The cap heads and nuts.






Turning the pillars with a round form tool then parted off. The same form tool was used on the top of the pillars but I forgot to photograph that.






Screwed onto the studs











Alength of 1/16 brass brazing rod bent and pushed through the holes.
















Cheers

Rich


----------



## BobWarfield (Dec 7, 2008)

Ah, the railing is the icing on the Gingerbread house!

Love the doors too. 

I somewhat wish for door handles on either door made of the same thing as your railing.

And as well, it would be cool if you had the option to take the burner in from the back side so that you could view the whole works from the front with the doors open.

Cheers,

BW


----------



## firebird (Dec 7, 2008)

Hi

Hmmmmm...............door handles eh...................


Cheers

Rich


----------



## ChooChooMike (Dec 7, 2008)

I've been following this thread since it's beginning and am still amazed at how much work you've put into this !!! 

WONDERFUL !!! :bow: :bow:


----------



## firebird (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Mike

Its the little bits that seem to take the most time but they are usually the bits that catch your eye first so must look right. Anyway its not really work is it, I love it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi

Bob Warfield suggested door handles, so.......................... OK then. The bosses were turned from 1/8 stainless steel round bar. I don't like doing stuff this small, my fingers won't work in miniature but with a bit of patience.......


Turn down and thread 8BA.







after cross drilling blind 1/16 holes about half way part off.






Drill holes in the doors.






And then mount the handles.











If your watching Sandy, I reworked the the left hand door bottom hinge to get rid of the 5 thou misalignment you spotted.

The doors refitted.





















Moving on to the water guage, the first job was to cut the glass tube down to size. I was a bit worried about breaking the tube but it all went fairly well. 

Mark all round the tube with a diamond file.






Then snap off.






A bit of video.





Fitted into the boiler along with the clack valve.
















The small guage that I am going to use came with a nut and nipple but I had to make one for the other end of the pipe. More fiddly work.






I annealed and then bent a length of 1/8 copper pipe using a spring bender. Then silver soldered the nipples into the pipe using the small torch.





Then a trial fit onto the boiler.





Looking good now.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 15, 2008)

Hi

Half hour in the shop tonight, long enough to make a filler plug. Its a simple turning job. Turn down and thread a piece of hex brass bar.






Part off and reverse in the chuck and shape with a round profile tool.






The finished bung.






I had to knock up a mandrel to turn down the 5/16 copper washers I had because the OD was too large.











Fitted into the steam dome.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## CrewCab (Dec 15, 2008)

Rich, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but ........... that's not a boiler .......... it's a Work of Art 8)

 ;D  ............. top class as ever, we expect no less of course, so you realise you've raised the bar as far as future projects are concerned ;D

This thread really has been a mine of information and I'm sure will be used as a reference for many years to come :bow: ...... and it's been dam entertaining as well ........ thank you and please keep up the good work.

CC


----------



## Bernd (Dec 16, 2008)

Ya, What CC said.

Very nice firebird. Can't wait to see the boiler hooked to an engine and running.

Bernd


----------



## firebird (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi

Thanks for the kind words and support guys.

Tonight I made a cap for the chimney. Is cap the right word, ferrel? dome? Dunno,  cap will do for now, I'm sure someone will put me right.

A piece of brass bored out to fit the chimney.






Then profiled with a round cutter.






Then parted off.











Polished up a bit slipped onto the chimney.
















cheers

Rich


----------



## malcolmt (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi FB
Excellent video good to see these little things actually being done for real.
P.S. I like the "magic" glove :big: :big: :big:

Kind regards

Malcolmt


----------



## firebird (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Malcolm

You noticed I had to edit the video a bit. It was too long to upload so I chopped out some of the boring bits.

cheers 


Rich


----------



## joe d (Dec 16, 2008)

Firebird/Rich

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest from the beginning.... all I can say is WOW. I've not yet tried my hand at a boiler, when I do I suspect it will greatly resemble yours! Thanks for posting the step by step, it has cleared up a number of questions I didn't even know I had to ask.

Cheers, Joe


----------



## Bernd (Dec 17, 2008)

Firebird,

Cap will do.


----------



## Maryak (Dec 17, 2008)

Rich,

I agree with Crewcab,

This is a work of art........ :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## ksouers (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow, Rich!
It's really looking great!

How soon till it goes live?

Kevin


----------



## firebird (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi kevin

Thats a good question. It has been steamed on the test rig so I know it works. I was thinking tonight how much more there is to do. Finish the air vents and make some means of controlling them then strip the whole thing down, clean and polish then re assemble and fit the insulation material. Once it has been completely re assembled I think I will use the hand pump to hydraulic test it again to check for leaks before I fire it up. With xmas looming it may be a few weeks yet but I'm getting there.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 23, 2008)

Hi

Just a quick line wishing all those that have been following my exploits a very merry xmas and a happy new year. A very special seasons greetings to all those that have helped me get this far, your help has been invaluable. Now just got to get xmas out of the way and I'll be back in the shop. :big: :big:

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Dec 31, 2008)

Hi

I have decided to control the air vents by means of a pair of handwheels similar to the hand wheel on the water but a little bigger.






Today I had a go at making two. I started in the lathe with a piece of 5/8 brass bar.I took a light cut just to clean it up and make sure sure it will be concentric in the chuck and lightly centred the end. It will remain in the chuck throughout the entire operation.

Clean up in the lathe.






Transfer the chuck complete with work piece to the rotary table in the mill and centre under the chuck.











Using the rotary table and a centre drill, drill 6 holes.






Then with a 1/8 drill, drill as deep as poss.











Change to a 1/8 cutter and using the rotary table join up pairs of holes. I could get to a depth of .450 with the milling cutter.











Turn the rotary table to the horizontal position and lightly mill six slots with the same 1/8 cutter.











Transfer the chuck and workpiece back to the lathe and centre drill 1/16






Finally part off two hand wheels .140 wide.
















Not too bad for a first go.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Kermit (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm loving this stuff. Forgive me for this,but would all of the operations you carried out on the mill be possible in the lathe as well?

Excepting maybe the joining of the drilled holes, I would need a rotary table set up for the lathe for that correct?




Kermit


----------



## firebird (Dec 31, 2008)

Hi Kermit

I can't think of any way it could be done without a rotary table but I'm a relative newbie to this. Maybe there is a way that someone will tell us about.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## mklotz (Dec 31, 2008)

For a stopped, curved cut (i.e., the slots in the handwheels), an RT is certainly the tool of choice.

There are other ways to do it but they're generally a good bit more difficult. For example, any noncritical curved cut can be approximated by milling a series of overlapping holes along the centerline of the cut and then filing away the cusps left by the milling. This requires some math to locate the points at which to mill the holes. It'll do the job but it's far more fiddly and error-prone than using an RT.

After buying the mill, my first major purchase was an RT and it was one of the smarter things I've done.


----------



## Noitoen (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi,

Very nice work. I have one question. Does the burner have enough "power" to maintain an engine running? How do you regulate/maintain the pressure below the tripping point of the safety valve? With your building skills, you could build a burner with pressurized kerosene (or other fuel), like those little stoves or blow torches with a little pump I usually see on sale in weekend "antique markets". Since the fuel is pressurized, the flame can be adjusted so the boiler can have some means to turn down the flame when the pressure reaches the working set point.

Continue the good work 

Helder Ferreira,
Portugal


----------



## firebird (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi Helder

This is my first boiler so has been a huge learning curve. With hindsight I perhaps should have started with something simpler but I'm nearly there now. I don't have an engine as yet, thats next. I'm hoping to control the burner by means of the adjustable vents. Time will tell.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## marshall0351 (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey Rich,
      In your original post titled "what is it" in the question and answers section, what document did you get the pictures from that illustrated the different boilers?

    Scott

       P.S. I just joined this forum in December and when I found this build thread of yours I had to read it all the way through, great job! and thanks for the time spent in documenting it. Very informative, I benefited from what you did, and the information exchanged between you and others. I hope you consider doing the same when you build your engine. Again thanks  Scott


----------



## firebird (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi Scott

Heres a link to the boiler types. This is what gave me the idea for my boiler. 

http://home.claranet.nl/users/summer/16mmngm/Articles_htms/porky.htm

Yes I will document my engine build.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Jan 8, 2009)

Gotta love those hand wheels!!!   8) 


Nice work Rich (as expected and proved many times over) The finished article will truely be a fully functional work of art :bow: 



Waiting for the next pic's 




Ralph.


----------



## marshall0351 (Jan 8, 2009)

Rich, Thanks for the link, Scott


----------



## firebird (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi

Seems ages since I had a good few hours in the workshop but I managed to swing it today and made some progress with the vent controls.

2 stainless steel 1/8 rods threaded 1 end 1/8 X 40. The other ends turned down a bit and threaded 7BA. I was going to have a go at making a square hole in the handwheels, I posted a how do I do that, in the questions and answers section a short while back, but decided to just make the handwheels a tight fit on the shaft. I'll use a bit of lock tight on the final assembly. The hand wheels will not screw up to a dead stop as in a drain valve for example so there will not be a lot of pressure on them. Hopefully they will hold OK.

Thread one end 1/8 X 40







Turn down and thread the other end 7BA






One of the finished shafts.






Drill out the handwheels using a drill that will make them a tight fit on the shafts.






A trial fit.






Make 2 brass bushes from 1/4 round brass. Drill through 1/8 then turn down and thread 3/16.






Make 2 brass nuts as well.






Mount the boiler housing in the mill. Mark out and drill 2 3/16 holes.






Fit the brass bushes into the housing with the brass nuts and push the shafts and hand wheels in.





















Make 2 brass nuts for the shaft to screw into. The nut will have to swivel to maintain alignment. Turn a grove in some 5/16 round brass bar.











Cross drill and tap 1/8 X 40.






Part off then test fit.





















More to follow.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## baldrocker (Jan 10, 2009)

Rich
The more you do the more gobsmacked I become.
BR


----------



## NickG (Jan 10, 2009)

I've avoided this thread a few times now. To be honest, I thought it would be fairly boring as boilers don't interest me that much, however, I have to say that I've just spend the last 2.5 hours going through the thread and Rich your boiler is superb!

It has totally put me off building one of my own ... firstly, it wouldn't come close to being as good as Rich's and secondly, there is so much work that goes into them. It is a massive project in itself.

I agree with other people Rich, your boiler is a work of art and it'd be a shame to mucky it up, but I have a feeling you've built it to be used! ;D 

Nick


----------



## Kermit (Jan 10, 2009)

That is truly a work of love. I love the details you have included, everywhere it seems!

I hope to do work even half that good someday,
Kermit


----------



## firebird (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi BR Nick Kermit

When I started on this project I had little idea what I was letting myself in for. I had of course read books, Tubal Caine etc and avidly read magazines from cover to cover every week and joined this forum. As the workshop and tooling developed so did my confidence to the point where instead of starting on something simple I jumped in at the deep end with my own design. Although I have shown some of my mistakes believe me there have been many more, some stupid, some frustrating and some I couldn't master. But with the help of everyone on this forum (and practising a lot of patience) I am close to completing the project. I have also drifted off in many different directions, lerning how to silver solder, learning how to weld 2 pieces of ally together, making tools and jigs, learning about hydraulic testing and pump building, the list is endless. BUT...........I LOVE IT ;D ;D ;D ;D. I'm totally hooked now and I don't think (I hope not) there is a cure for it. Eventually it will be part of an engine plant (engine not built yet but loads of ideas) and will be fired and steamed. While I admire the superb models that members build and the bling that goes into them I'm more of a practical type of bloke that wants to run them and get dirty with oil and steam.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## T70MkIII (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi Rich

Being quite new here, I saw this page of your thread in recent posts, and like NickG I settled down read the whole 21 pages in one sitting in the last couple of hours. I don't quite know what to say, except each page was more exciting than the last. I don't intend to build a boiler in the forseeable, but I have learned so much by reading your thread; from you and the gentlemen who have advised along the way.

I can't wait to see how it looks all polished up (if that's what you plan to do) and running an engine. Thank you also for the abundant pics and video. They really add life to a thread, and sure do help with understanding what is going on.


----------



## firebird (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi

Thanks Richard, glad you like it.

Today I made a couple of small brass collars to go on the shafts.






Then silver soldered them on. The small blow torch is ideal for this sort of job.






After a clean up.






All the parts so far.






Two pieces of brass bar to make the levers. A jump from imperial to metric here, the brass bar is 7mm wide, 2.5mm thick and back to imperial 3inches long. A 1/8 wide slot is machined into each end 5/8 long.











Here is one of the levers in place. You can see now, hopefully, what I am doing. There will be a pivot in the centre of the lever.











Cheers

Rich


----------



## rleete (Jan 11, 2009)

What do these levers actuate?


----------



## firebird (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi rleete

They will move the sliding baffles back and forth over the air vents. I hope to control the heat in this way.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm liking the look of this system for vent flow alteration ;D

I was wondering where all the bits were going.... Got it now! 

I want to see it working....I'm sure that won't be too far away 



Nice work as usual Rich  




Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi

I got the vents and controls finished and working today. The pivot point for the levers made me scratch my head for a while. I didn't want to drill the sides of the boiler housing, I wanted to keep them clean. In the end I came up with this. I figured 2 more brass nuts on the busy end would not look out of place.

2 lengthsof 1/4 brass hex drilled and tapped 1/8 X 40 into one end.






Thread some 1/8 stainless steel 1/8 X 40






Screw into the brass hex tight.






Then cut off to leave 2 studs.






Hold in the mill and machine down.











Drill a 1/8 hole.











Cut 2 lengths of 1/8 stainless steel 5/16 long and silver solder into the brass hex.






Drill 2 holes in the boiler housing.






Drill the centre of the levers 1/8.






Make 2 thumb screws from stainless steel. knurled for easy grip.






assemble all the parts into the boiler housing.





















Heres a bit of video showing how it works.





Cheers

Rich


----------



## Divided He ad (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Rich, 

Very neat!  8) 

Glad to see it all working, I really like the lever and pivot system for the vents... Very easy for me to remember 

No issues with the extra nuts on the front... They are needed so they must be there 



Not wanting to sound pushy or such like, just a question... How much do you have left to do to it? 

I only ask because I really want to see you build the engine for it to power ;D




Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Ralph

Nearly there now. It remains to strip the whole thing down and give a final clean up and a bit of a polish. I'm not going to bling it up too much as I intend to steam it and run it so some tarnishing will be inevitable. I think they call it patina in the antique trade. Then re assemble it and line it with some boiler insulation material. I'm going to try a tweak on the burner as well. In the tests (its shown on one of the videos) it seemed to burn better with the vent hole in the filler plug blanked off. I assume that is because with the increase in heat there is also an increase in pressure within the burner. I'll make an adjustable plug and try it. When thats done I intend to hydraulic test it once more to check for leaks then a steam test. It may seem at times that I am spending too much time on this project but I figure the more I learn/observe now the better off I'll be when I move on to something bigger and more challenging. At the moment spare time for the workshop is scarce so it will drag on for a while yet. As for the engine I'm playing around with ideas and making sketches and a box of useful bits is well on the way. There is much to learn once I start on an engine. Much as I would love to send off for one of the many casting kits that are available and simply machine an engine as per the instructions I prefer to design and build myself. That to me is the challenge that I enjoy. It would have been easy to send off for one of the boiler kits that are available but I wonder how much I would have learnt had I chosen that route? Its been great fun so far with years of fun to come I hope.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Maryak (Jan 18, 2009)

firebird  said:
			
		

> I figure the more I learn/observe now the better off I'll be when I move on to something bigger and more challenging. As for the engine I'm playing around with ideas and making sketches and a box of useful bits is well on the way. There is much to learn once I start on an engine. Much as I would love to send off for one of the many casting kits that are available and simply machine an engine as per the instructions I prefer to design and build myself. That to me is the challenge that I enjoy.



I couldn't have expressed it better myself :bow:

Congratulations on your boiler - I am sure your engine will be equally impressive.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


----------



## NickG (Jan 19, 2009)

Rich,

Strange you mentioned that about the vent hole. I forgot to put one on my small meths wick burner for my hot air engine. Now that I've drilled one, it doesn't burn as well! ???

Boiler is looking superb, I too am wondering what sort of engine you will now build to go with it! It will have to be good to do it justice, that's for sure!

Nick


----------



## firebird (Jan 19, 2009)

Hi Bob & Nick

This will be my first steam engine so I have a bit of research to do first. I understand how an oscillating engine works but I think something a little more is needed to compliment the boiler. I need to learn how slide valves work and eccentrics etc. Another huge learning curve. One step at a time is the way to go ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Rich


----------



## NickG (Jan 19, 2009)

Rich,

You're right there, it deserves much more than an oscillating engine. Slide valve with reversing gear I reckon! Or a beam engine! Sure you will have great fun and learn a lot ;D


----------



## mklotz (Jan 19, 2009)

firebird  said:
			
		

> I need to learn how slide valves work and eccentrics etc.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rich



Picture = 1kword, etc. Try this...

http://www.keveney.com/Locomotive.html


----------



## firebird (Jan 19, 2009)

Hi

Thanks Marv

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Jan 24, 2009)

Hi

I carried out a little mod to the burner today in the form of a bung in the filler plug vent hole. First a bit of video. I lit the burner just to remind myself how it performed with the vent hole open.





Firstly the filler plug was drilled through and tapped 3/16 x 40 in the top as deep as I could go. The bung is a simple turning job from 5/16 round brass knurled a bit and threaded 3/16 x 40. I moved it to the mill and clamped it in the vise at an angle and milled a slot with a 1/16 cutter.

Turned and threaded and knurled.







Mill a slot at an angle.






Part off.






Fitted in the filler plug.






Under test the burner performed better, a little pressure seemed to make it burn better. By loosening the bung to expose the slot the flame noticeably drops so I now have some control. Coupled with the adjustable vents in the boiler housing I should have a good degree of control. 

Some video of the second test with the bung fully closed. Sorry about the noise in the background I forgot to turn the telly off!





Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Jan 24, 2009)

Hi

I'm satisfied now that the burner will perform ok so I stripped the boiler down. I can clean and polish all the pieces now and then line the housing with insulation. Heres some photos of all the bits.









































Cheers

Rich


----------



## NickG (Jan 24, 2009)

Absoltely brilliant. :bow:


----------



## Shopguy (Jan 24, 2009)

Beautiful work! You've certainly hung in there to make a boiler that is not only functional but also looks very good. Congratulations on the job. Any plans for a name plate like the big ones?
Regards, :bow:
Ernie J


----------



## kustomkb (Jan 25, 2009)

Divided He ad  said:
			
		

> Hi Rich,
> 
> Very neat! 8)
> 
> ...


----------



## Kermit (Jan 25, 2009)

*Model Engineers Steam Generator*

Model A1 Serial no. 001

Would look nice etched into brass and filled in with black paint.  



You should toot you horn for this one, I think its a wonderfully detailed specimen. Good job Sir,
Kermit


----------



## firebird (Jan 26, 2009)

Hi

My good mate Julian, who has just finished converting his x1 mill to full 3 axis cnc, took it upon himself to make this for me.











He's a good lad isn't he.

The boiler will eventually drive an engine and the two will be mounted on a nice base so I will probably fit the brass name plate to that.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Maryak (Jan 26, 2009)

Rich,

Yes Julian is a good lad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Best Regards
Bob


----------



## firebird (Jan 31, 2009)

Hi

Well I've spent most of my spare time this week polishing the bits. The ally parts have been giving me some trouble however. The funnel, funnel base and boiler housing top plate have all polished up ok but the boiler housing will not polish well no matter what I try. It just seems to stay a dull colour. The best I've come up with is this stuff, solvol, that gives a reasonable polish. filthy stuff though, my hands ended up stained black so rubber gloves are needed.






With all the parts cleaned and polished to a reasonable level I have started the re-build and fitting of the insulation material.

The insulation material.






A thin smear of silicon to hold it in place.





















The boiler has been re-fitted and has insulation material on the top.






Re-fitting the vent controls











This is how far I have got with re-building











Cheers

Rich


----------



## ChooChooMike (Jan 31, 2009)

Looks great !!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

(again  )


----------



## rleete (Jan 31, 2009)

Wow, lookin' good.

What material are you using for the insulation? Aren't you worried about smoking from the RTV, or doesn't it get that hot?


----------



## firebird (Jan 31, 2009)

Hi

Its boiler insulation material but I have to confess I can't for the life of me remember where I bought it. I most probably bought it at one of the shows. Most model engineering suppliers stock it. As for the silicon Sandy C suggested the method of fixing it to the boiler, its only a very thin smear and will be well cured by the time I fire up the boiler.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## chuck foster (Jan 31, 2009)

i have been following this build from the start and all i have to say is ............ excellent workmanship and a great tutorial on building a boiler :bow: :bow: 
thanks rich

chuck


----------



## steamer (Jan 31, 2009)

Looking Great Rich!
When is the first "Steam"?

Dave


----------



## ozzie46 (Jan 31, 2009)

Absolutely Amazing!!!!!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


Ron


----------



## T70MkIII (Jan 31, 2009)

Superb, Rich!


----------



## firebird (Jan 31, 2009)

Hi

Thankyou gentlemen.

Hopefully it will be steaming within the week.

cheers

Rich


----------



## Shopguy (Jan 31, 2009)

Very, very nice. It is always a treat to see a project complete. You've worked long and hard on this one, congratulations. Thm:

Ernie J


----------



## Divided He ad (Jan 31, 2009)

You got to be happy with this one Rich :bow:

Aluminium is a bu#'4r without a buffing wheel!! you are best flating it first 800-1000 grit wet n dry with WD type thin oil on it... Some would go finer on the grades too, makes the final polishing easier! Plates that big would give most people trouble!!!

Doesn't look bad at all though. Fantastic contrast between the body and all the brass fittings  and you've certainly got a reflection off the body 8) .... Are your thumbs are hurting? Thm: 


Bet you can't wait for the steam up?!  






Ralph.


----------



## Maryak (Jan 31, 2009)

WOW, :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## shred (Jan 31, 2009)

Looks nice. 

Is the insulation 'Fiberfrax' or something like it? It looks about like that and is pretty easy to come by at glass-working hobby shops and pottery places.


----------



## NickG (Feb 1, 2009)

Too good to steam! :big: :bow:


----------



## firebird (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi 

Thankyou all again

Ralph, I did try the casing on my buffing wheel but it didn't do any good. Looking at a piece of offcut I think it may be anodised or coated?? The top plate is made from a different piece of material and polished on the buffer ok. The casing material is quite hard compared to the top plate as well.

Shred, I'm pretty sure now I bought it at the Harrogate model engineering show last year maybe from reeves or somebody like that. There is no makers name on it so I can't help there.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi

The wife said do you mind if I go shopping this morning. I'll manage I said. Straight outside in the shop. I got the boiler re-build finished and hooked the pump up to it to give a final leak check. It will be easier to fix any leaks while its cold. Heres the result.





A couple of minor dribbles to fix but nothing serious.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## gilessim (Feb 1, 2009)

Looking great there Rich,can't wait to see it running one of your engines!,BTW I'm envious of your clean workshop!, you could probably do open heart surgery in there!, makes mine look like a coal mine!

Giles


----------



## firebird (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi

OK.............................WHO'S GOT THE CHAMPAGNE :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

Take a look at these










From a very happy

Rich


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## chuck foster (Feb 1, 2009)

:bow: :bow: :bow: WELL DONE RICH :bow: :bow: :bow: 

chuck


----------



## cfellows (Feb 1, 2009)

That's gotta feel good! Lotta fine work went into that little boiler. Dang, now I want one!

Chuck


----------



## joe d (Feb 2, 2009)

Rich

Just BRILLIANT! I've really enjoyed following this build, thanks for sharing it all with us.

Joe


----------



## Shopguy (Feb 2, 2009)

Awesome piece of work! I have enjoyed your log and photo's/video's of this project very much. Thanks for letting us all see the project as it unfolded.
Ernie J


----------



## Maryak (Feb 2, 2009)

Rich,

An absolutely well documented and well executed build of your boiler.

Thanks for sharing with us. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## ChooChooMike (Feb 2, 2009)

We need to add a "Project of the Month/Quarter/Year" and put this boiler/build as the #1 choice !!

Great and continuing job Rich !! :bow: :bow:

I like in your vids, the computer monitor in the back left corner is showing the video camera view too LOL 

Mike


----------



## rake60 (Feb 2, 2009)

Beautify done Rich! :bow:

Rick


----------



## Divided He ad (Feb 3, 2009)

Whey hey ;D  :bow:  :bow: :bow: 


Nothing wrong with that Rich 8)


I've been trying to view the vid's for 2 days but my crappy net connection has been playing up.... Still I got there eventually 


Holds a nice 30psi, spot on me thinks 



It's going to be great when you have your engine built, have you started on your design yet? 

Who? What? Me rushing things along..... Never! 

I think you'll take your time and do it right no matter, just like the boiler 


Good to see the little beautie steaming up as planned Thm:




Ralph.


----------



## firebird (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi

Hi

Many thanks for all the kind remarks. Seeing it steam for the first time was a real thrill. I had a grin from ear to ear all day. I have a few sketches of the type of engine I want to build and a box of useful bits but thats a way off yet. I am going to try a mod to the burner while I'm on the boiler. I am well pleased with how the multi jet idea worked, but it works too well! I had to leave the doors open for the burner to get enough air. Closing the doors extiguished the flame. I had no idea at the start how much heat a meths burner generates, I now realise that the burner I built is too much for this size of boiler. Never the less a lot has been learned and the multi jet idea may be used again on something bigger. I intend to take the pre heater wick tubes out and make a couple of small caps to blank off and seal the bushes. The multi jet 'mushrooms' will be removed and replaced with a simple tube and wick. Time will tell how well it works. I'll report back when its done. After that theres some tooling I want to make and a couple of things I want to play with for a while before I start on the engine.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Blogwitch (Feb 3, 2009)

Rich,

Congratulations, a true labour of love where your enterprise, skills and workmanship have really shown thru.

Blogs


----------



## firebird (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi

I modified the burner today by removing the two multi jets and pre heaters. I made two new wick tubes and blanking plugs for the pre heater bushes.

The new parts







New wicks fitted.






Fitted into the burner with the original multi jets in the foreground.






And lit.






Looks good so far but the test did'nt go too well.





Try again





No good.





Still very poor. I carried out another mod. Blank off the front wick and use one multi jet in the rear position.





Thats got it. With just the one multi jet its quite controllable and steams well. I think I will make another burner with one multi jet mushroom positioned to be in the middle of the boiler.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Shopguy (Feb 7, 2009)

Looks like you've got it! 12 minutes to steam, without forced draft, is fairly impressive
Regards
Ernie J


----------



## firebird (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi

Thanks Ernie. What is forced draft??????

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Shopguy (Feb 7, 2009)

Rich 
My interpretation of forced draft.
Forced draft is when there is a mechanism in that increases the air flow up the stack. Often the exhaust steam from an engine exits from a upward pointing nozzle in the stack, this expansion of steam creates more air flow allowing more fuel to be burned. On models it is common to have an auxiliary blower (electric) that will draw more air up the stack until there is steam available from the engine to accomplish this function. This blower typically sits on the stack until steam is up and is then removed.
Ernie


----------



## Maryak (Feb 7, 2009)

firebird  said:
			
		

> Thanks Ernie. What is forced draft??????



Forced draft is where additional air is forced into the combustion space by means of a fan.

Induced draft is where additional air is induced into the combustion space by means of:

1. A fan in the funnel.
2. A Blast pipe using the exhaust steam from the engine or when the engine is stopped steam from the boiler may be supplied to the blast pipe.

With natural draft the maximum amount of air which can be induced into the combustion space is attained when the funnel gases attain a temperature of 600 F. The output of the boiler is limited by this limit on the amount of fuel which can be burned.

With forced/induced draft the air supply is independent of the above and additional power may be obtained for the same sized combustion space.

On Large installations such as Electric Power Generation both forced and induced draft fans are sometimes employed.

Hope this helps ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Feb 7, 2009)

firebird  said:
			
		

> What is forced draft??????



I smell another modification!


----------



## firebird (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Steve,I think your right

Thats got it. With just the one multi jet its quite controllable and steams well. I think I will make another burner with one multi jet mushroom positioned to be in the middle of the boiler.


Ahhhh............. so thats what those gizmos are for. Iv'e seen them on the funnels of model traction engines at steam shows.

Cheers

Rich

[/quote]


----------



## Noitoen (Feb 8, 2009)

I still say, you could get a nice flame if you "copied" those old kerosene stoves or blow torches that used a little hand pump to pressurise the fuel. I always see them on sale at the local flea market.


----------



## firebird (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Noitoen,

Thats an idea I might use on a larger boiler.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Kermit (Feb 8, 2009)

Boiler *Turbocharged Afterburner*  ;D







Just tossing ideas around like a game of catch,
Kermit


----------



## firebird (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Kermit

How does that work then????

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Kermit (Feb 8, 2009)

After steam is built up a line is made to feed steam out of a small opening. This is place inside a larger tube which communicates with the fuel tank. The steam causes the fuel to be pulled in with the steam. Extra air ports are added in a third still larger outside tube.

Ancient Fuel injection Tech,
Kermit


----------



## steamer (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi Rick,

Thats a steam atomized burner. The steam turns the fuel into a fine mist. The rapid flow of steam generates a draft that draws in the air in for combustion at the right. The handwheel moves the steam/fuel nozzle to the left and right to adjust the flow at the end. If you burning barrels of oil firing a boiler, your on a good track.... 


Dave


----------



## Noitoen (Feb 9, 2009)

Here is a little gas regulator if you want to use propane.

Helder 

View attachment RG001_Regulateur_Gaz.pdf


----------



## steamboatmodel (Feb 12, 2009)

If you go with a ceramic gas burner, you would probably get steam up in 5 minutes.
Regards,
Gerald


----------



## firebird (Feb 12, 2009)

Hi

Thanks for all the info re burners, I have printed it out and stored for future use. I think I will stick with the meths burner for now as I need to get on with other projects. SWMBO has got me decorating right now so time in the shop is short.

cheers

Rich


----------



## firebird (Mar 1, 2009)

Hi

Got the decorating done at last (well for now anyway) so I have been in the shop and made a new burner. This one has a single multi jet mushroom that will sit in the centre of the boiler. I have a length of 2 1/2 inch dia. copper pipe so decided to pinch an inch off the end to make a tank.

Drill a hole first.






Then cut off in the bandsaw.











I had a piece of round steel 3/8 thick that only needed a small amount turning off to make a former for the top and bottom plates of the tank. The size is the internal diametre of the tank less twice the thickness of the copper plate.






Cut 2 pieces of copper roughly to size then turn to size in the lathe. I have allowed enough to give a flange of 3/16 of an inch











After annealing the copper plates can be tapped over the former. I only needed to anneal the copper once.


























The flanged plates were a good fit in the tank. If this were for a boiler I would have held the plates on the former in the lathe and skimmed the edges but as this is not a pressure vessel I left them as they are. the bottom plate is silver soldered in first.






Two bushes were made made and silver soldered into one end of the feed tube along with a brass end cap. One bush for the multi jet and one for the pre heater.wick tube.






The feed tube is silver soldered into the tank. The top plate has a bush silver soldered in for the filler bung.






Finally the top plate is silver soldered in. Here it is prepared with flux and pieces of silver solder around the joint.






Heres the finished burner along side the original.






In use it burns well and had the boiler up to pressure from stone cold in 15 minutes.

Heres a video.





Well its finished now so this will be the last post on this topic. Time to put it to one side until I have an engine built that will be powered by this liitle boiler. Its taken a while to build but I have had to learn a lot along the way, machining techniques, silver soldering, hydraulic testing to name but a few. I couldn't have done it without the help and encouragement of you guys here on the forum. MANY MANY THANKS to you all. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: There are too many to name but I must give special thanks to 2 members, Sandy C and John Bogstandard. Without their help, both on the forum and privately it would never have been completed.

Once again thanks to all those that have helped along the way to those that have watched my antics I hope you have enjoyed it as much as I have building it.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## kustomkb (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks for all of your documentation ! You have made a great tutorial. I really enjoyed following your progress. It looks a works fantastic :bow:

Great job!


----------



## chuck foster (Mar 1, 2009)

well done firebird Thm:
looking forward to your next build.

chuck


----------



## cfellows (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice job on that burner, too!

Chuck


----------



## Metal Mickey (Mar 1, 2009)

This thread is going to be very useful for when I make my first boiler so many thanks! :bow: :bow:


----------



## Shopguy (Mar 1, 2009)

Very nice. Your new burner is beautifully done.
Best
Ernie J


----------



## Maryak (Mar 1, 2009)

Rich,

The new burner is a beauty. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## ChooChooMike (Mar 1, 2009)

Yet again excellent on-going tutorial and learning !! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


----------



## Philjoe5 (Mar 1, 2009)

Great work not only in the shop but also in taking the time to document this very interesting build :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Paolo (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice solution...!!! :bow:
Best regards
Paolo


----------



## R.G.Y. (May 9, 2009)

I have built 2 steam engines and now have to make the boilers. This will be enough of a challenge but the bigest challenge is getting a certificate for insurance purposes as I do not have an approved design. R.G.Y.


----------



## firebird (May 10, 2009)

Hi Rgy

Thats a nice pair of engines you have there. You don't say where you are located but in the UK (the same as most other places I suspect) the boiler regs are pretty strict. Don't quote me on this or treat it as gospel but there is something called the 2 bar/litre rule. As I understand it if the boiler holds less than 1 litre of water and does not exceed 2 bar (appprox 30 psi) a boiler cert is not needed. If you intend to run it in public then a cert is needed ( I think). My boiler will never be displayed and run in public. I'm sure somebody on here will correct me if I'm wrong. Best bet is join a local club to get solid advice.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## Orrin (May 10, 2009)

Firebird, I've been enjoying and admiring your projects. Thank you for posting the pictures. I've enjoyed them all; you are an excellent photographer as well as an exceptional craftsman. 

I am particularly interested in your alcohol burners. I have need for one that produces more heat than what a single wick can do. I like the multiple-orifice preheated burners you have built. For sure, I'll be trying to copy your design. 

I have a question, however. First, let me say that I've been using mostly alcohol fuel in my projects and have had a couple of near-misses that could have burned someone or caused a serious fire. 

Nearly all of these near-accidents have resulted from using burners built by someone else that allowed the fuel supply to get too hot and boil. The vapors go all over the place and catch on fire, readily. For that reason I have been very careful to thermally isolate the burner from the supply tank. Usually, I do that with model aircraft fuel tubing made of silicone rubber. 

All this leads to my question: Have you experienced any such problem with the fuel boiling? The relatively large diameter copper pipe between your burners and fuel reservoirs appear to provide a very efficient thermal path between the two. If I tried it I would worry. 

For any of you who have not used alcohol burners outdoors, let me offer this warning: *In sunlight and in bright daylight, alcohol burns almost invisibly.* Even the most diligent observant model operator can have a serious out-of-control fire and not even know it! Been there. Done that. 

I'm going to try that pre-heating idea, but I'm chicken. I plan on breaking the thermal path with silicone rubber tubing. 

Best regards, 

Orrin


----------



## R.G.Y. (May 10, 2009)

Rich, R.G.Y. is in darkest SOUTH DEVON over looking the sea & river TEIGN. Nov 2008 the exemption was raised to 3 bar-liters, for the southern federation of model engineers. I do belong to a club, but if it doesn't run on rails they don't want to know. As I don't have an approved design, the club tester won't issue a certificate. That is the problem. I have completed one paddle steamer (in 2001). I had to resort to moving weight from one side to the other by radio control and fly it like a plane. So I have designed a boiler with a low centre of gravity. A wedge boiler (if you aren't familiar with one)named after the inventor not shaped like a wedge RG.Y.


----------



## firebird (May 10, 2009)

Hi

Orrin, I haven't experienced any problems with the burners I made, maybe because the tank is outside the firebox? I can see that having a remote tank connected by tubing as you suggest would be an improvement on the design. I may try that myself.

Rgy. We have a holiday in Devon every year, the English Riviera, one of our favourite places. I sympathise with you're boiler testing, I've heard of that attitude before, only recognised designs accepted . How do get a design recognised? Stifles progress somewhat I think.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## R.G.Y. (May 11, 2009)

Rich, I think I have the answer to my boiler problem, Having done all the calculations, I have decided to build one. Then take it to Manchester so the insurance engineers can check the design and do a pressure test. This will cost plenty, but if I can then get it published maybe I can recoup some of this cost. Only then will it be a recognised design and may help other boat modelers. I have done a little research and there seems no designs have been published since the 1960'S (unless some one knows different).If you would like a look in my workshop, EMAIL me before you come on holiday.


----------



## steamboatmodel (May 12, 2009)

"I have done a little research and there seems no designs have been published since the 1960'S (unless some one knows different)." 
What about Peter Arnotts designs in Model Boats Magazine, I am sure there are others. The criteria should not be whether the design has been published or not but whether it is a sound design or not. I have seen some published designs that if asked to approve a boiler built to them I would decline.
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## Maryak (May 13, 2009)

RGY,

You may have to seek approval from a design verification authority to ensure compliance with the appropriate code.

Sorry but this sounds expensive.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## SandyC (May 13, 2009)

Hi Guys'

The 'Appropriate Code' in this case is that published by the 'Southern Federation of Model engineering Societies'
and is the code to which RGY's club supposedly adheres.

Section 4.1 of this code clearly states that in the case of a new (unpublished) design then providing that the constructor produces a full set of drawings and the necessary mathematical calculations to submit to the inspector for approval, and providing that these support/verify the integrity of the design than there should be no viable reason for your club inspector to not provide a test and certificate.

Sadly, we are faced with a lot of 'supposed' experts in many clubs, who wear the testers/inspectors hat, and most are not capable of verifying the calculations.... in my mind such people should not be in the position.

RGY... if your boiler is of no greater capacity than 3 bar/litres, then under the same code you are exempt from all test requirements. (see ** below)

If, on the other hand, it is only a matter of insurance (which I would find odd, since any club using that code should have the appropriate insurance to permit it's use) then you can easily obtain insurance from 'Walker Midgley Ltd' or from any 'Royal and Sun Alliance' brokers, since these insurers were part of the team which developed and agreed the code in the first place. All will deal with individual applications, not just clubs.

There is no need to go to all the trouble and expense of getting your design verified by an outside authority.
Most of these would be following the same code anyway, or the original 'PRESSURE EQUIPMENT REGULATIONS 1999 SI NO. 1999/2001 ("PER") P.E.D.97/23/EC' code from which it was derived, and the same design verification rules apply.

** You may still need to get a steam test done under club rules, but this is not the same thing as a full pressure test, since no Hydraulic testing is required, but rather verifies that your safety valve, water gauge and other fittings etc are fully functional and that no pipe work leaks are present. This is done at normal working pressure.
Again, if the boiler is built to the code, then there should be no valid reason to refuse such a test.


Best regards.

SandyC


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## firebird (May 13, 2009)

Hi Sandy

Thanks for that explanation. Clear and precise as usual. 

Nice to hear from you again.

Cheers

Rich


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## R.G.Y. (May 13, 2009)

Sandy c, Thank you very much you have cheered me up no end. Just the information I was hoping to find. It was the way I interpreted the rules.
I did submit drawings and calculations to the club tester who refused to comment on them, except to say he would not test an unapproved boiler. As I understand if a club tester will not test then a tester from another club should be nominated. R.G.Y.


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## SandyC (May 13, 2009)

;D

Hi RGY,

No problem my friend, glad to help.

Sound like your club tester/inspector is one of those I would rather not see doing the job... I would question his capabilities.

You are quite correct in your last statement regarding an alternative inspector/tester from another club, however, this must be done/arranged by your club and not by you.

The final paragraph of clause 2.6 covers this and is quite clear as to the procedure.

I wish you luck in your quest..... don't let a fool hold you back as there is no need for this type of thing to happen as often as it appears to do. The rules are easy enough to interpret.

Best regards.

SandyC


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## citizen004 (May 13, 2009)

For what its worth I have a 7.25" loco which was designed in accordance with Mr harris's excellent book and it has just been retested under the Southern Fed Rules. It has a rudementary drawing and a set of imperial calculations.

the Southern Fed Boiler and Safety Officer may also offer advice

Wally Pearson
8 Pamela Avenue
Paulsgrove
Portsmouth
PO6 4QX

email [email protected]

As already stated by someone a small boiler below 3 bar-litres is exempt from the regulations - but all sensible clubs would ignore that exemption!

The Rules (revised edition 2008) do suggest that you discuss the design and materials before you start construction - but on your boiler it should be bleedin' obvious.
Produce a drawing - do the calcs - refer to the Code - and be prepared to move to another club.

If you wish I will scan the pages from the code if you are stuck


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## R.G.Y. (May 14, 2009)

Thank you all for the help. Wally I have a 2008 copy of the code and have followed the formula in K.N.Harris's book. Looks like I shall be haveing words with the club tester. R.G.Y.


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## steamboatmodel (May 15, 2009)

We will all be cheering for you. 
Regards,
Gerald.


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## mach632 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi folks question phospher bronze for bushings is there a diference between this and plane old brass rod thanks Andy


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## arnoldb (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Andy

Brass rod is not the same as bronze, even though they look the same. Brass is mostly made of an alloy of copper and zinc, while bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Both can have some additional elements added to make different varieties of each.

Use of brass is discouraged for boiler bushings, as the zinc in it will leach out over time, making joints brittle, that's why bronze is the preferred metal for bushings and so on.

When looking for bronze for bushings, make sure to steer clear of aluminium bronze - it contains some aluminium and can be problematic to solder/braze. Phosphor Bronze works a treat though Thm:

Regards, Arnold


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## Noitoen (Aug 13, 2011)

I thought that phosphor bronze was porous. At least the one used in motor bushings is. I use to lubricate them by pressing a bushing filled with oil between my fingers until the oil "sweated" through the little pours.


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## compspecial (Aug 13, 2011)

Noitoen, I think you are thinking of sintered bushings which are made by compressing metal powders into the desired shape.and are therefore porous..
                cheers Stew


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## GWRdriver (Aug 13, 2011)

R.G.Y.  said:
			
		

> R.G.Y. is in darkest SOUTH DEVON over looking the sea & river TEIGN.


Now there's a place I'm familiar with, one of my best chums lives in Teignmouth, not far from where the railway line passes under the Dawlish road.


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## R.G.Y. (Aug 13, 2011)

GWRdriver, THANKS FOR REMINDING ME OF THIS POST. THE CLUB TESTER DID EVENTUALY AGREE TO A TEST. WHICH IT PASSED. I HAVE SUCSESSFULLY STEAMED THE ENGINE, BUT NOT IN THE BOAT YET. R.G.Y.


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## mattinker (Nov 11, 2011)

AllThumbs  said:
			
		

> Drilling a hole in the back of the female part of the mold would have made it possible to push out the copper disk from the back.
> 
> Eric



You could also put an air line fitting in the back and blow it out!

Regards, Matthew


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## firebird (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi Mathew.

That would possibly work. 

The copper grease did the trick in the end for me.

Cheers

Rich


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## bearcar1 (Nov 12, 2011)

Hi Rich, I followed along with baited breathe (peuw)  when you first did this series and I have just now gone back and re-read it once again, good stuff. Thm: The reason being that I remembered bits and pieces of this article and have been contemplating building a boiler of Jan Gunnarson design and yours has some very striking similarities. I really like the way that you made formers from Oak to shape the end plates rather that merely bashing the bits to death with a mallet. Copper anti-seize huh? I just wanted to say thanks again for showing us all of your great work.

BC1
Jim


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## mattinker (Nov 12, 2011)

The copper slip would seal the air well!

Regards, Matthew



			
				firebird  said:
			
		

> Hi Mathew.
> 
> That would possibly work.
> 
> ...


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## firebird (Nov 13, 2011)

Hi

Yes mathew it would certainly seal it. The punch and die were intended to be used just the once to make the end plates for this boiler so I could have actually cut them open if it came to it. The chances of me coming across another piece of copper tube the same size is remote. If I was going to use them repeatedly to make several boilers then a better method of extraction would certainly be needed.

Jim, the beauty of using the press method is the copper only has to be annealed once. The completed plate can be made in one operation and comes out very neat. It didn't take long to make the punch and die and is a method I intend to use on my next project which will have a 4 inch diameter boiler.

Cheers

Rich


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## boxcarmj (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi! Is there a way to replace the pictures and then make this permenant, so we can all benefit from it.
Thank-you Mike.


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## ned100 (Mar 27, 2013)

boxcarmj said:


> Hi! Is there a way to replace the pictures and then make this permenant, so we can all benefit from it.
> Thank-you Mike.


 
Hear, hear.  There is nothing more frustrating, than to find what was obviously a very informative build, open it up and find all the photographs are not there!!!!!!!


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## johnnyo (Mar 31, 2013)

Hi Rich
I'd like to see the pics myself. Why do they disappear? I just finished this scaled down gas regulator for my own boiler but haven't worked out the burner design yet. It's a french drawing in metric scaled to 1/32 to 1 mm thru draft sight. Could you please repost a picture of you're fine work to refresh my memory.
Thanks
Johnny O


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## joeb (Jan 20, 2014)

heres my vote to replace the pictures 
I'm sure theres a wealth of info in them 
if theres anyway to get them back I 'd sure be very appreciative 
cheers
Joe


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## Trialnterror (May 17, 2014)

Pictures ? : (


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## edgar56 (Jun 26, 2014)

good afternoon, I'm doing a project and I have a big doubt. please want to know: 
I have a boiler that produces steam 3200kg/hr (design) 
the burner has an output of 2990 kW. (design) 
As I PLG gas supply to the burner for receive that amount of steam? 
The PLG must keep gas in the tank storage for my boiler does not run out of fuel? 
Please send me if you can also formulas to calculate the consumption of PLG. (liquefied petroleum gas).
Thanks.


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