# Opinion on a new lathe



## hacklordsniper (Dec 14, 2012)

As im selling my mini lathe and managed to find a buyer the decision is what to buy next after micro and mini lathe.

My choice and only available brand is Optimum. Im still thinking should i go 

240X500 DC vario http://www.optimum-machines.com/products/lathes/d-240-x-500-g/index.html

or

280X700 DC vario http://www.optimum-machines.com/products/lathes/d-280-x-700-g/index.html

I really want the larger one since the price difference is not a big step and this lathe would set me "for life", altrough  the smaller would do that too. It will be interesting to carry such machine in house.

What im thinking about is the gearbox in oil. Any experience with Chinese built machines at it? Oil leaks? Any particular experience to the model im reffering? Any drawbacks?


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## n4zou (Dec 14, 2012)

You can always do small work on a large machine. You can't do large work on a small machine. Always buy the largest machine you can fit and afford.


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## GWRdriver (Dec 14, 2012)

I agree with your thinking.  The momentary sting of few 100&#8364; will be quickly forgotten and you will *never* regret having the additional power and 30-4000rpm speed range that machine has.  I went through this same process 30+ years ago when I bought my lathe (a British Harrison M250 - 280mm.)  For a few 100£ I had the option of  waiting on a more powerful 3000rpm model or taking a 1500rpm model immediately.  I took the 1500rpm machine and have regretted it ever since because its lack of rpm affects the way it performs doing small work, and as model engineers most of the work we do is small!  On the 280 Vario machine you will also be equipped with the power and low rpm range to do large work when it comes around.


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## Jasonb (Dec 14, 2012)

I've have had the Warco version of the 280 with the power cross feed for about 5 years now and am quite happy with it.

The gearbox and apron do drip a little oil but nothing to much.

Torque can drop when you use it at very slow speed on large diameter work like 250mm diameter cast iron flywheels but its not often that you work these diameters on a model.

J


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## Bastelmike (Dec 14, 2012)

hacklordsniper said:


> As im selling my mini lathe and managed to find a buyer the decision is what to buy next after micro and mini lathe.
> 
> My choice and only available brand is Optimum. Im still thinking should i go
> 
> ...


 
Hy,

if You can afford it (space and cost), my proposal would be an Optimum D320. Just because tis one has a gearbox for the main spindle, no need to change belts. Thats a very big advantage in my opinion.

Mike


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## hacklordsniper (Dec 16, 2012)

Hello,

the D320 is out of my budget and even if not there is no way i could bring it in house because of the wight and there is no space for it.

I really want the D280X700, the price difference is quite small (i just recieved offers today), more smaller than on the website.

Problem is my lathe table "tub" is 160 cm long, the D280X700 is 135 cm long. The leaves me only 25 cm of space, 12.5 cm on each side. Opening the gear train needs atleast 30 cm. Also i could not remove the tail stock, or the carriage for cleaning or any adjustment. This could be a problem with 180 kg lathe. On my question Optimum suggested that minimal table length for D280X700 is 220 cm. 

I will need to take the D240X500


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## hacklordsniper (Dec 20, 2012)

Im still troubled by this decision... Does anyone have an good idea how to lift the 180 kg lathe and put it on the table? Approximately what weight will i get when i remove the carriage, chuck, tailstock?


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 20, 2012)

the weights given are approx shipping weight. so deduct the weight of the extra tooling the crate and the tal stock. my G4000 is listed @ 300lb 135 kg but is easily put on the bench by my son and I. yes we both lift weights daily. 

in my younger days I Moved a 250lb anvil from my hatback car to the stump un the shop. Noticed I said moved not lift.  I put a generator in a van by myself using ramps. 

An engine hoist will do the job. or just do cribbing lift one end at a time and block up the other option is do not lift it slide from the back of your pickup onto the bench. My son and I move 500lb blocks of cast iron all the time .
Be creative but save think it through and if you slide rather than lift you can move more than you think. pipes used as roller help a lot. .
Be safe. 
Tin


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## gus (Dec 20, 2012)

n4zou said:


> You can always do small work on a large machine. You can't do large work on a small machine. Always buy the largest machine you can fit and afford.



Hi ZOU,

You are right. I opted for the Sakai ML360 Mini Lathe (150mm swing x 360 between ctrs) with no regret. The smaller and much cheaper ML230(100mm x 240mm) would not take on the mini engines I built. It would not have enough swing to take the flywheels.
Same goes for the vertical mill. 

In real life,I went for a bigger engine lathes,milling machines,shapers etc.
Submitting new Capital Requisition for bigger lathes would be like Hari Kiri with Corporate HQ.


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## kvom (Dec 20, 2012)

Can you not make your lathe stand mobile for the times you need to change gears or access the spindle end?

My Monarch is about the same size bed, and I have never needed to remove the tailstock.  However, I have had times where I wanted to insert a longer bar through the spindle hole from the side.  I've also used a wooden rod from the outside to clear swarf from the spindle hole, esp. after boring.

The 1.5kw motor option would be worthwhile IMO if finances can swing it.


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## Jasonb (Dec 20, 2012)

You do not need 300mm to get to the gear train you need approx 10mm longer than the cover width so thats 120mm though a fraction maore would be handy say 140mm. 

The tailstock does not need to be slid off the end of the bed, just undo the nut & plate below and it will lift off, same with teh carrage undo the 4 bolts and it will come off leaving the apron behind

You can strip the lathe down quite a bit to reduce the weight then two people can lift it or use an engine hoist as has been suggested. Here is mine with chuck, tailstock, topslide, motor, gear cover, chip tray & back cover, chuck guard, etc removed, I would not suggest removing the carrage for transport


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## hacklordsniper (Dec 21, 2012)

kvom said:


> Can you not make your lathe stand mobile for the times you need to change gears or access the spindle end?



Problem my lathe table is closed and (im attaching the picture) and when throwing the drill out im left exactly with 1580 mm.



Jasonb said:


> You do not need 300mm to get to the gear train you need approx 10mm longer than the cover width so thats 120mm though a fraction maore would be handy say 140mm.



Thank you, that is very useful information


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## kvom (Dec 21, 2012)

Looks as if the left side of the enclosure could be hinged w/o too much trouble.

Your shop is too neat.


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## Jasonb (Dec 21, 2012)

I should just say that mine is the variable speed 280, a belt drive may have a different end cover.

J


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## GWRdriver (Dec 21, 2012)

kvom said:


> Your shop is too neat.


My thoughts exactly.  Every once in a while when I've gone to a newly built, squeaky-clean pub/sports bar I'm asked "How did you like it?" and my answer is "There's nothing wrong with that place a good alcohol-fueled brawl and food fight won't cure."  Same thing applies, here's nothing a few projects won't cure, . . . but I sure do covet that parts bin.


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## hacklordsniper (Dec 22, 2012)

kvom said:


> Looks as if the left side of the enclosure could be hinged w/o too much trouble.
> 
> Your shop is too neat.



That is a great idea, its welder but i will call my friend which made it to see our possibilities.

I like to keep it clean, sometimes it can be so infested with swarf, tools and various junk you cant walk inside. Last winter i even arc welded in there, i repaired my motorcycle inside and do quite many work which leaves place in terrible mess. But give me 12 hours, vacuum cleaner, and some cleaning agents and at the end of the day you can eat from the floor


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## MuellerNick (Dec 22, 2012)

> My choice and only available brand is Optimum.



Whenever I hear Optimum (I call them Pessimum), I get upset. You do not pay more for better quality, you pay more of the company's owner.
I had two Optimum D330 * 1000. The first one was replaced after I found too many bugs in it. Replacing took just 9 months and a long list of insisting. The replacement lathe (that I still have), I should have rejected too. Same crap bundled with a lot of promises. I have seen more of the Optimum mills/lathe, not just these two. All the same!
Buy a HBM or Kami, same crap, less money.


Nick


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## Till (Dec 22, 2012)

You're better of with a second-hand Wabeco...


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## hacklordsniper (Dec 24, 2012)

MuellerNick said:


> Whenever I hear Optimum (I call them Pessimum), I get upset. You do not pay more for better quality, you pay more of the company's owner.
> I had two Optimum D330 * 1000. The first one was replaced after I found too many bugs in it. Replacing took just 9 months and a long list of insisting. The replacement lathe (that I still have), I should have rejected too. Same crap bundled with a lot of promises. I have seen more of the Optimum mills/lathe, not just these two. All the same!
> Buy a HBM or Kami, same crap, less money.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately i had 2 of their lathes until now and both had amazing list of various manufacturing defects. They are only brand available, so i cant take anything else.

Second hand market is quite unspectacular, few very old lathes, with 2 fingers of rust everywhere, price more than new Optimum.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 24, 2012)

A Myford Super 7B? It may not the best lathe, it may not be the most modern or even need lots of restoration( like mine did)---- but it is MYFORD- and will always be --- a *MYFORD. *


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## Noitoen (Dec 24, 2012)

One of these http://www.abratools.com/cat2011/paginas_html/121.html 
is following me home this Christmas. It appeared to me at my working place bought in a auction together with other stuff by my boss. A little negotiation and now I have to make room for it . This Spanish "manufacturer" has other model and sizes and maybe you should look.
http://www.abratools.com/cat2011/paginas_html/121.html


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 8, 2013)

Hello, 

well the final decision has been made. The Optimum is really a disappointment with amazingly expensive quote for nothing from a machine. This is why i decided to take Bernardo Profi 700 TOP, 3 phase 2013 model, serially equipped with sino digital readout. It has a 160 mm chuck (compared to Optimum 125 mm), power cross feed (which Optimum does not have), 700 mm between centers for price of 500 mm Optimum, safety clutch, longitudinal micrometer (although im not sure what is that in this moment  ) and quite many details where optimum fails short.

The only difference is that Optimum lathe spins up to 4000 RPM and that is really unnecessary.

Will have to take a 700 km journey in one way, and again 700 km back to bring it home, going for it next week. If there is any reason to quit from these lathe (bad experiences?) let me know. Still with all that quite much money will stay in pocket comparing to Optimum.

Also i decided to leave my mini lathe because its impossible to sell if the price is not 1/4 of what i paid.. For that money i will just leave it (mostly because for it i have every lathe accessory ever invented). Its always useful to have a small lathe as spare, thats how i explained it to my wife...


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## Jasonb (Jan 9, 2013)

That is basically the same lathe as mine but with the big bore head and uses many of the same parts as the optimum 270x700.

There are several suppliers of the lathe, Warco sell it as the WM290 and Presision Mathews also sell it and have a forum for their latehs

http://www.warco.co.uk/metal-lathes...934-wm290-variable-speed-lathe-wm-290-vf.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bluemachining/


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 9, 2013)

Jasonb said:


> That is basically the same lathe as mine but with the big bore head and uses many of the same parts as the optimum 270x700.
> 
> There are several suppliers of the lathe, Warco sell it as the WM290 and Presision Mathews also sell it and have a forum for their latehs
> 
> ...




Thank you for this useful link, im going to study them now. Any issues with your lathe? How happy are you?


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## Jasonb (Jan 9, 2013)

I have had mine for about 4.5years and have only had to change a set of brushes in teh motor and I also changed the spindle bearings for better quality ones.

Very happy with the quality of work that can be done with it.

I notice that supplier does not include some of the accessories in the basic price. If making a long trip I would suggest you also purchase the 4-jaw independant chuck, faceplate, fixed steady and traveling steady.

You will also want a live centre and drill chuck & arbor to fit the tailstock and it would be a good idea to get a MT5-MT3 reducer sleeve so you can use tooling in the spindle. Thes eare standard items and could be bought from any source unlike the ones above which are lathe specific.

J


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 10, 2013)

Hello,

thank you for advice. I ordered the stand, faceplate and both steady. All other accessories i have already except MT reducer sleeves which i ordered from China. 

I guess you have the DC motor version, identical to Bernardo 700 profi, the lathe i ordered Bernardo Profi 700 TOP uses a 3-phase motor and frequency converter (its a new design for 2013).
If someone bought an original stand for this lathe, could they comment quality of it? I have seen Optimum stands live and they were quite rusty, unstable, thin metal looking junk

I cant wait to strip it in pieces when it arrives, clean it and start working on it...


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## Jasonb (Jan 10, 2013)

The stand that came with mine is quite solid and no signs of rust. I did replace the flat panel in the middle with something more useful.












Yes mine has the DC motor, you should get better torque at lower rpm with the 3-phase.


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 10, 2013)

What is the tool in your tailstock? Just for curiosity why you removed chuck protection?


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## Jasonb (Jan 10, 2013)

That is a tailstock die holder

The chuck guard prevents the toolpost from getting close to the work unless you have excessive tool overhand, this is even worse when using the faceplate.

You will also find that the safety covers on the feed screw also stop the carrage getting close to the head, well known problem on many lathes that have these safety features retro fitted to get CE approval.


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 11, 2013)

Jasonb said:


> That is a tailstock die holder
> 
> The chuck guard prevents the toolpost from getting close to the work unless you have excessive tool overhand, this is even worse when using the faceplate.
> 
> You will also find that the safety covers on the feed screw also stop the carrage getting close to the head, well known problem on many lathes that have these safety features retro fitted to get CE approval.



Thank you, one is on my "to do" list for verry long time.

I understand now, this has been a problem on my optimum and because of it i had to disable chuck guard interlock when using faceplate. I noticed the Bernardo lathe has a safety clutch on bed, i wonder is it just a switch or "real" brake.

Thank you for all of your answers, they helped me quite many.


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 11, 2013)

Also can anyone comment would this type of QCTP be good for this lathe http://www.ebay.com/itm/AXA-Quick-C...3?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3f20acdc01

I do not want to go the 40-position tool holder as before since it is quite expensive. I wonder could i use my small tool holder i have http://www.createtool.com/article.asp?id=41


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## Jasonb (Jan 11, 2013)

The problem with the tool holder that you already have is that the 30mm dimension will not be big enough so the tool will not overhang the topslide so you will have problems with facing cuts.

I have not tried the AXA ones so can't comment


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## Journeyman (Jan 11, 2013)

I have the WM250 lathe, slightly smaller than the WM290, and have fitted an AXA toolpost to this without too much trouble. I doubt that it will be a direct swap though. I wrote it up on my web site http://www.cign.org/wm250qctp1.html which may or may not be helpful to you.

Cheers John


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 14, 2013)

Thank you for all help and answers. The lathe is delayed as its new product for 2013 and it will be available for pick-up in about 1 month.

Cant wait for it to arrive and start playing with it...


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 19, 2013)

Hello,

i just received another delay notification, this time for 3 months more.

I was looking at the machining center http://www.mercateo.com/p/554-807(2...enter_700_BQV_inkl_2_Achs_Digitalanzeige.html . 

It is the same lathe in specs and does include a mill head for not too much additional payment and is available now. Al trough i have a stand-alone mill i don't mind getting this combo too (since the price difference is quite small). 

However im having trouble speaking with Bernardo on their impossible to understand English. Does anyone have experience with this machine and can tell me does this machine also use 3 phase motor with frequency converter as this lathe http://www.ebay.de/itm/Drehmaschine...980?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item19d632a63c


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 19, 2013)

I have an Aloris AXA and love it It is on my south bend 9"  but did nave it mounted on my seig 7 x 10 import IMHO if you have the extra cash go for a wedge style. some guys have had issues with the piston style. also I would not use a plunge style knurling tool buy or make a scissor type. 
the subject of QCTPs  has been discussed a lot here on previous threads so a search may glean additional info. 
Tin


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 20, 2013)

I have managed to acquire a german speaking person with Bernardo. The lathe available now does not have a VFD, just plain DC motor.

Is VFD worth waiting? I know all advantages of both drives since electronics is my profession. However i never operated a lathe with VFD, always with DC motor.

Who had experience with VFD and plain DC motor lathes, can you comment please?


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## lensman57 (Jan 20, 2013)

hacklordsniper said:


> Hello,
> 
> i just received another delay notification, this time for 3 months more.
> 
> ...


 
Hi,

I think that you need to understand how this system works. Most of these machines are made in China, as you know, in two or 3 large factories and then painted , labeled up and even specced up for different destinations in batches, so there is always a shipment period of at least three months, as the western economy is getting worst the local suppliers are reluctant to put large orders in as I am sure that they need to purchase a minimum number of lathes, mills etc,  to make it worthwhile for the Chinese to build them to a price, therefore the local supplier will take his time to get more orders in as they just want to pay for what they can sell straight away and not sit on the stock. Add to this all sorts of shipping, financial and administrative delays and the game becomes more obvious.
I have noticed that at least in the UK, the frequency of the suppliers showing items " out of stock " is increasing and I don't think that people are buying much so they are just not importing as much.

Good Luck and Regards,

A.G


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## Jasonb (Jan 20, 2013)

Mine has the DC motor and there is a slight loss of torque when using slow speeds combined with large diameter work. For example on a 225mm iron casting I cannot take off more than 0.6mm cut per pass without the work slowing or even stopping, it is not noticable when using low speed on smaller dia work.

I do know someone who changed the motor on their identical lathe to 3 phase with VFD and he gets better torque at low speeds.

But I look at it this way on most of what we tend to make you seldom need to turn large items, usually just a flywheel on a whole model so I can manage with taking smaller cuts occasionally.

I did have a quick look at the Warco WM290 yesterday at a show and it is identical to mine except for the larger bore spindle


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## gus (Jan 21, 2013)

Jasonb said:


> Mine has the DC motor and there is a slight loss of torque when using slow speeds combined with large diameter work. For example on a 225mm iron casting I cannot take off more than 0.6mm cut per pass without the work slowing or even stopping, it is not noticable when using low speed on smaller dia work.
> 
> I do know someone who changed the motor on their identical lathe to 3 phase with VFD and he gets better torque at low speeds.
> 
> ...



Hi Jason,

I am with you. DC motor with electronic control board not 100% reliable.
Three phase motor with VFD best shot.May I add. I would go for "Taiwanese Teco". Or Japanese. The Chinese Rotary Screw Compressor Plants I worked with blacklisted local VFDs.Local VFDs have yet to come up to Taiwanese/Japanese quality.


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## hacklordsniper (Jan 23, 2013)

Good news, i managed to sell my mini lathe *beer*

Although more money was lost than expected. 

Im waiting for the lathe with VFD, definitely. Im still planning how to push this lathe in my work room. I have 16 m2 and 11 meters length of tables inside and tight space for this lathe


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