# Unsatisfied !?



## minh-thanh (Dec 10, 2022)

Unsatisfied ...
   When making an engine and especially with engines with  many parts , many cylinders,, sometimes there is one or two parts that I really don't like - due to a small mistake or carelessness or even poor machining. ... , it's still usable but I'm not satisfied
  Use it or will make a new one!? That's a question I often ask myself
  I always want it to be the best it can be, but there's always something I don't like
  Have you ever been like that ? And what will you do ?
 Thanks !


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 10, 2022)

If I were unhappy with a part I would make a new one.


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## minh-thanh (Dec 10, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> If I were unhappy with a part I would make a new one.


If that part takes a lot of effort and time like crankshaft, camshaft, or block engine .., will you still make a new one ?


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## DrMike (Dec 10, 2022)

Make it over, regardless of the time, effort and material needed.

It might work just fine, and might even WOW! those you show it to.

But you will always know it's not right.
And that's the only thing you'll see every time you look at it.


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 10, 2022)

"Make it over, regardless of the time, effort and material needed.

It might work just fine, and might even WOW! those you show it to.

But you will always know it's not right.
And that's the only thing you'll see every time you look at it."

Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Sprocket (Dec 10, 2022)

I have a small collection of "learning experiences" 
Besides, if it's something you had never made before, now you've made one before!

Doug


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## Nerd1000 (Dec 10, 2022)

Perfect is the enemy of good. Ask yourself what is required of the part (fits, tolerances, surface finish?), if it complies with requirements why worry? If it doesn't, re-make it.


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 10, 2022)

This is more of a psychological question than a technical question.

I don't see a black or white answer on this, but I can appreciate the fact that many of you do. This is a hobby of passion, for those who are driven by something that 99.9% of the people you run into don't have, and cannot do. So, we are already on the edge and some want to keep it pure and not have to make a decision. Fine. You have time and material, go for it. Or maybe you are selling it, or might sell it, and it is a matter of pride and reputation. Remake it so that it is perfect.

But there are always several ways to look at a "problem." And I am of the not-so-pure point of view. I have a limited number of hours for this hobby and sometimes need to decide when good enough is good enough. Have you ever heard the saying, "It is time to shoot the engineers and go on with production." ?

By asking the question, maybe Minh Thanh is on the fence about a tiny defect in a complex part.

Here are questions I might ask myself. If I answer YES to more than a couple of these questions, I will probably remake the part.

I am making this for someone else.
I might sell this in the future.
People who know and appreciate "quality work" will see this project.
As it is now, the part might possibly fail in the future.
The defect is more than cosmetic.
I have plenty of time and don't mind re-making it.
Knowing the defect is in there will bother the heck out of me.
If I remake the part, I already know how I can make it even better.
I can remake it pretty quickly.
It was a dumb mistake and I fell stupid about it.
I really wanted this project to come out as near perfect as I could make it.
It's a matter of pride to me.
Anybody can hide their mistakes, but I will not.
More??

I am sure we all have our own tipping point.

P.S. Luckily, all of my bosses were happy with correct, and never demanded perfect.


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## Wheat47 (Dec 10, 2022)

minh-thanh said:


> Unsatisfied ...
> When making an engine and especially with engines with  many parts , many cylinders,, sometimes there is one or two parts that I really don't like - due to a small mistake or carelessness or even poor machining. ... , it's still usable but I'm not satisfied
> Use it or will make a new one!? That's a question I often ask myself
> I always want it to be the best it can be, but there's always something I don't like
> ...


I don't know about you guys, but when I started making model engines and such, I figured I made each machine at least twice to get one!!
As I became more experienced, I got somewhat better.  Now, I make 1 1/2 to get one!!LOLOL  As someone mentioned, there is the "wow" factor others see in your work.  I no longer point out the mistakes I made to others.  What they don't know won't hurt them.  Also, as someone else pointed out, if a piece doesn't work, you gotta replace it.  A few of my machines, I got them operating, but if there was a "sketchy" piece, I would go back and replace it.
Just my point of view.
Jon


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## D and D (Dec 10, 2022)

minh-thanh said:


> If that part takes a lot of effort and time like crankshaft, camshaft, or block engine .., will you still make a new one ?


Yes I would, I enjoy the manufacturing as much as the finished item. I often think of a quote by Nevil Shute Norwood "
For my own part, I was learning what better men than I had learned before me. That to travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive, and the true success is to labour.


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## peterl95124 (Dec 10, 2022)

if I ever tried to correct every machining mistake I made I'd never, ever finish anything,
that's just a fact of life, you can only afford perfection when you're making an endless
number of identical parts and can afford to throw away the first N (N is a large number)
as test pieces, but in a model engine you're only making one, or a couple, of a part.

On my model R R Merlin V12 engine every single large part of aluminum has some machining
mistake, and that's after discarding some parts that had to be do-overs because they were 
unusable.  The mistakes aren't all obvious, but I know where they are.  However, the engine
runs, and it looks AOK, so that's that and on to another engine model.

there are some parts of an IC engine that do require perfection, unless the valves and rings
seal it won't run, that's where you spend your allotment of perfectionism, if you try to go 
much beyond that to cosmetics you will never, ever finish, or at least I'd never finish, there
are some people (Chris at Clickspring for example) that can do it, but not me, and I don't
allow myself to loose any sleep over it either.  Nor do I try to patch over and paint over 
mistakes, just leave them be, getting the engine to run comes first, after that you're so happy
you forget about the mistakes.


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## D and D (Dec 10, 2022)

peterl95124 said:


> if I ever tried to correct every machining mistake I made I'd never, ever finish anything,
> that's just a fact of life, you can only afford perfection when you're making an endless
> number of identical parts and can afford to throw away the first N (N is a large number)
> as test pieces, but in a model engine you're only making one, or a couple, of a part.
> ...


Sounds like we agree Peter, strive for excellence not perfection.


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## mole42 (Dec 11, 2022)

In my case, I’m building the 9-cylinder Gnome radial to improve my skills in machine work. I’ve already made several more parts than strictly necessary. When I get the engine  running I’ll be happy.


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## bluejets (Dec 11, 2022)

Make it right the first time.

Measure twice, cut once.


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## Ken I (Dec 11, 2022)

I try to adopt the "two bites of the cherry" approach.
I make the parts in the sequence most easy to correct on the subsequent part - I then strive for perfection - a personal triumph every time I mike up after my final cut to find I'm spot on. If not I'll fix it on the mating part. Screw that up and you have to make it again.
Obviously major blunders generally go into the scrap bin for future stock or repurposing and to serve as a reminder.
That can get close to self flagellation - I learned how to completely make the voice coil and re-cone a 1948 jukebox speaker - a learning experience so I know now how to do it now. But my first experiments suffered 5 failed attempts - I won't bore you with the details but it was a process of learning what manufacturing methods did and didn't work - I finally had a perfectly wound coil but when I came to fit it to the cone I found it was precisely 4mm too short due to a stupid measuring error. AAARRRRGGGHHH!
My sixth attempt was successful - but the pristine and otherwise perfect #5 stood on one of my shelves laughing at me - I couldn't bear to simply throw it away given the amount of effort that had gone into it. Beautiful but useless.
It stood there for about 5 years and I caught it laughing at me one time too many - grabbed it off the shelf - stamped it flat with my foot and tossed it in the bin.
Lesson - don't torture yourself with your mistakes, we all make 'em.

Regards, Ken I


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## minh-thanh (Dec 11, 2022)

Hi All !
Thanks for the comments !
  Each opinion has its own good
  If I attach too much importance to perfection, then maybe I can hardly complete an engine - at least for now, experience, skills, machines, knowledge... are not enough.
  If perfection is disregarded, unnecessary or similar, then my machining experience and skill...will recede over time.
  I need to find a balance, what is enough...at least for now and in the near future

But I love this story :


Ken I said:


> My sixth attempt was successful - but the pristine and otherwise perfect #5 stood on one of my shelves laughing at me - I couldn't bear to simply throw it away given the amount of effort that had gone into it. Beautiful but useless.
> _*It stood there for about 5 years and I caught it laughing at me one time too many - grabbed it off the shelf - stamped it flat with my foot and tossed it in the bin.*_


  It makes me laugh


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## ajoeiam (Dec 11, 2022)

D and D said:


> Sounds like we agree Peter, strive for excellence not perfection.


I believe the saying is "Strive for perfection and settle for excellence"


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## vederstein (Dec 11, 2022)

For me depends on a few of factors:

○ What's the purpose? Am I building something for looks (e.g. my Dancer's Engine) or am I trying something that's never been done before (e.g. Camgine! or my Four Square Engine)
○ How visible is the mistake and how distracting is the error?  Can I hide it or orientate the part in a way to make it less noticeable?
○ How frustrated am I with this project?  Do I have any more patience to screw with it?

I generally fall into the "If it works, it's good enough" category.  On the rare occasion I get to display my engines in public, it's not like people are scrutinizing these things or I'm in a machining competition.  Most people either don't notice or don't care about a minor error here or there.

...Ved.


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 11, 2022)

I have slept on this and given it more thought,, so a second reply.

Although I haven't been working on engines very long, pretty much everything I make, now and for years previously, is a Design-Build project.

I rough the design out in cadd, and then proceed. During and after the build of each part, I keep an up to date AS-BUILT drawing. Does that mean that all my parts are perfect, LOL.?


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 11, 2022)

deleted


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## kwoodhands (Dec 11, 2022)

Many years I built a locomotive that was supposed to run on steam. The boiler drove me nuts, fix one leak and another appears. Finally I decided that this is not fun anymore and ran the locomotive on compressed air. Runs great, but is a show piece on a shelf . 
Several months ago I decided to build Rudy K tractor. I started with the boiler. 1-1/2" copper pipe and bronze for the heads. 
First try held water but I did not do a hydro test because the boiler looked lousy to me. The water tubes are external and they were the problem. Water tubes were so bent up that I started over again. I used this boiler to experiment. I found a better way to install the tubes.  Second boiler held water so I did a hydro test.  Water tubes held , backhead leaked immediately . I cleaned the joint and tried again, failure.  I decided to cut the backhead off and examine it.  I immediately saw what I had done wrong. 
I use Harris black flux for hard solder. I use Castrol tapping fluid for tap and threading parts. The Castrol was put in a pill bottle , it is black and looks the same as my flux. 
Both are in pill bottles and look the same. I felt like an idiot and made a third boiler. Tapping fluid is a lousy flux as I found out. Made third boiler. Tested 60lbs. pressure and held for 30 minutes. Boiler runs at 30 lbs pressure when running.
This boiler passed the hydro test, I took the wife out to dinner to celebrate. 
I rarely give up when a part is made wrong. Proof of this is a box full of " experimental " parts.
Now I am making gears for this tractor. Total of 9 gears. This the first time making gears.  First five are made and mesh well.  I make two sets of gears, first set in Acetal. Lot cheaper than brass. If all goes well the second set will be brass. So far so good. 
Not perfection , but well satisfied so far.
mike


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## master53yoda (Dec 11, 2022)

My son and I have had this discussion a few times.   He is a precision CNC machinist we agree that the level of perfection should be based on the function of the part,   I cast and machine so my parts are never to the perfection level that he is used to.  He has worked on things like the optics ball on the AH64 helicopter gun ships.  He also brings up that some times the tolerance levels set by the engineers are not attainable with the machines unless they are machined in a progressive tool path without any reverses in direction.
Art b


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## jmille7916 (Dec 12, 2022)

minh-thanh said:


> Unsatisfied ...
> When making an engine and especially with engines with  many parts , many cylinders,, sometimes there is one or two parts that I really don't like - due to a small mistake or carelessness or even poor machining. ... , it's still usable but I'm not satisfied
> Use it or will make a new one!? That's a question I often ask myself
> I always want it to be the best it can be, but there's always something I don't like
> ...


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## jmille7916 (Dec 12, 2022)

master53yoda said:


> My son and I have had this discussion a few times.   He is a precision CNC machinist we agree that the level of perfection should be based on the function of the part,   I cast and machine so my parts are never to the perfection level that he is used to.  He has worked on things like the optics ball on the AH64 helicopter gun ships.  He also brings up that some times the tolerance levels set by the engineers are not attainable with the machines unless they are machined in a progressive tool path without any reverses in direction.
> Art b


Many years ago, the good people at Princeton designed and built a fusion machine, designed to achieve the conditions called breakeven  This is when at least as much energy is generated as used to achieve the fusion. The problem was that when this was achieved, then things would be finished for this machine, since the meutron flux developed would make various components sufficiently radioactive that they could not be handled.  In the end noone did the final experiment because there was always something else that they wanted to try. 
Moral is to set your goals as you wish, but to remember to follow through to your own satisfaction


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## Steamchick (Dec 12, 2022)

Hi Bluejets,
I have amended the old adage "Measure twice, cut once." into: "Think first, then think again, then Measure twice, think again, cut once. - Add to scrap bin, think again, then do it properly!" - Maybe even "repeat"?
But I am an old Engineer.... and often think something can be better instead of "adequate"...
Many so called "Designers"  simply copy "previous" designs with a few tweaks, - To suit available (or affordable) materials, machining methods, personal skills (expertise in various ways), etc. 
The worst cases are when someone simply "(linearly) "scales-up" a previous proven safe design. e.g a 3" boiler "scaled-up" to a 5" boiler.... AAAARGH! - Design calculations involving squares, cubes, etc. CANNOT be scaled linearly. I have experienced boilers that were "scaled-up" from maybe an 80psi NWP to be used as a larger boiler  - but only meet NWP of 20psi (or less) when the calculations are conducted.
So the first "Think" must be "is it a correct design?"
My first experience of this (as a 10-year-old) was to double the dimensions of a balsa framed tissue covered glider design.... Not only di I need about 8 times the nose ballast the get the C-of-G where the centre-of lift was, but I needed a large ballast weight adding so it would fly. The ratio of thickness to lift to length of an aerofoil is very complex and non-linear, (including the magic Reynold's number!) and way beyond the linear scaling of a 10 year old. - so I had generated a glider with far more lift than suited a practical flying speed - and when it was finally ballasted correctly to compensate for the huge lift, it flew so far it smashed into trees a few hundred yards away...
So I worry at machinists who simply "linearly" change the size of models....
So please include the "think, think, think again" bit to your old adage.
K2


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## Gabe J DiMarino (Dec 12, 2022)

Many years ago I was told .What makes a good tool maker is if you make a mistake being able to fix it .Fix it in a way no one can tell it was fixed !  To me it makes more sense to save a part . Granted there are times when you have to start over . A part has 3 functions .FORM ,FIT, FUNCTION ... Dose it look good ..Fit dose it mate properly with other parts in the assembly . Dose it work as intended . If any of these are not meet and you cant make it work .Well I guess you need to start over .


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## Ken I (Dec 12, 2022)

If you can't fix it hide it !
The toolroom I was working for at the time bought a brand new (and very expensive) Swiss jig boring machine and set it up in its' own air conditioned room.
It was given over to the tender mercies of a toolmaker who had developed multiple sclerosis and worked mostly out of a wheelchair.
On his first day on the new machine he drilled a hole in the table - he figured he's be fired for sure - what to do ?
Plugging and machining would be obvious so he did something daring - He counter bored the hole, drilled thru and tapped for an oiling nipple and very carefully stamped "oil" next to the hole.
I noticed it and thought it was an odd place for an oiling nipple ??
So it came to pass that the bodge went unnoticed (but frequently oiled) until the toolmaker 'fessed up at his retirement party some eight years later.
Most of the party traipsed down to the jig borer and sure enough the oil went nowhere other than the sump.
Even the manufacturer's service personnel did not notice (or kept mum about it).


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 12, 2022)

Gabe J DiMarino said:


> Many years ago I was told .What makes a good tool maker is if you make a mistake being able to fix it .Fix it in a way no one can tell it was fixed !  To me it makes more sense to save a part . Granted there are times when you have to start over . A part has 3 functions .FORM ,FIT, FUNCTION ... Dose it look good ..Fit dose it mate properly with other parts in the assembly . Dose it work as intended . If any of these are not meet and you cant make it work .Well I guess you need to start over .



"Damn, I was afraid that was going to happen."
"Damn, I can't believe I did that."

Being able to fix your blunders is BIG.


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## minh-thanh (Dec 12, 2022)

Hi All !
So many comments, so many stories ...
  Very interesting .
   Thanks a lot !


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## awake (Dec 12, 2022)

Lloyd-ss said:


> I have slept on this and given it more thought,, so a second reply.
> 
> Although I haven't been working on engines very long, pretty much everything I make, now and for years previously, is a Design-Build project.
> 
> I rough the design out in cadd, and then proceed. During and after the build of each part, I keep an up to date AS-BUILT drawing. Does that mean that all my parts are perfect, LOL.?


Yes, absolutely. The plans match the parts perfectly! (Who says it has to be the other way around? )

My frequent motto: I've cut this board three times and it is still too short!


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## Rocket Man (Dec 12, 2022)

I am a projectionist, I want engines to run good but I don't care if they win the ugly contest.  

The first engine is a 1"x1" steam or air engine.  It runs 40 to 1000 rpms.  I have pullies to power other things.  It has collected dust & rust in the past 30 years.  Block is a 2"x2"x4" piece.  Head was a scrap piece I never even machined it to fit.

The red flywheel engine is 6 cylinder steam or air.  It runs 30 to 600 rpms.  The .312" dia. pistons need to be larger but it runs good.

For each his own.  Do what you like, and have FUN.  Don't worry if people laugh at your ugly engine.  LOL.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2022)

All of my engines are beautiful----to me. All of my engines are machined to the absolute best I can give. All of my engines drive me a little bit crazy. I am a much better machinist now than I was thirteen years ago when I started this foolishness.  I have become very good at hiding my mistakes. I learn as I do. I don't often make the mistakes I used to make.---I make new and different mistakes.


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## Shelton (Dec 12, 2022)

This is wonderful thread with lots of good philosophies mentioned.  All good ones, too!


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## D and D (Dec 12, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> I believe the saying is "Strive for perfection and settle for excellence"


“Strive for excellence, not perfection, because we don't live in a perfect world.” is the full quote.​


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## Richard Hed (Dec 12, 2022)

D and D said:


> “Strive for excellence, not perfection, because we don't live in a perfect world.” is the full quote.​


Ah now, according to my wife I am perfect-- a perfect a**hole.


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## timo_gross (Dec 13, 2022)

stevehuckss396 said:


> "Make it over, regardless of the time, effort and material needed.
> 
> It might work just fine, and might even WOW! those you show it to.
> 
> ...



If not too many of the matching parts that are attached have to be changed, a replacement part can be re-considered at a later time. This is my preferred way.
It gives me time to make my peace with the piece.
My inadequacy does not give enough room to make everything over (and over, and over .... ), regardless of the time, effort and material needed.
I do not think I can develop the patience and skills to get things "perfect", something will be always wrong.
Too often (a.k.a. usually) I end up with a "semi finished" stage.

I try to find a blance between "good enough" and "scrap".

Tweaking things to exhibition quality, is something I can not imagine to ever achieve.
Maybe (who knows) I will get there some time. (my only chance would be the help of the forum )
For now I try to keep the fun alive, learn new things all the time. Struggling with not starting a new project every time, a semi finished item is already a great achievement for me .


Greetings Timo


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## clockworkcheval (Dec 13, 2022)

Designers who copy and adapt existing designs have for ages been the mainstay of manufacturing know-how in the design office. When you change an existing component using the original calque most of the times you keep all the adherent often well-proven information like tolerances,  surface roughness, material choice and such. Of course thinking is good and the slide rule should be within reach. The many blessings that came with Computer Aided Anything in design office and workshop also came with one major set-back: a wizard's pupil who knows the trick-movements but not their exact meaning can in a very short time with CAD design a component that at first glance looks good but at closer inspection can hardly be manufactured.


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## Steamchick (Dec 13, 2022)

I spent my design "life" pre-CAD. I was one of those who were employed to take 40 year old designs and re-create engines with more than double the performance... before the original designers retired. (SO lots of consultation  on the original design ad strength calculations was possible!) Unfortunately, after I left (for a more permanent company) the business folded within a few years. So all my designs exist "as installed" but are now at their end of life.. and the technology is lost to the scrapyard.
The only "CAD" was the company main computer that took 15 minutes per calculation then timed-out! I was allowed 4 calculations per night. 
C'est la vie!
K2


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## ajoeiam (Dec 13, 2022)

master53yoda said:


> My son and I have had this discussion a few times.   He is a precision CNC machinist we agree that the level of perfection should be based on the function of the part,   I cast and machine so my parts are never to the perfection level that he is used to.  He has worked on things like the optics ball on the AH64 helicopter gun ships.  He also brings up that some times the tolerance levels set by the engineers are not attainable with the machines unless they are machined in a progressive tool path without any reverses in direction.
> Art b


Hmmmm - - - that's one of the 'problems' with engineering. 
There is a huge difference in working/usable and built to the drawings. 
(I'm not talking about sloppy junk - - - rather about unrealistic tolerancing!) 
What is fascinating to me is that the early model jet engines were finished by skilled craftsmen. 
It tool a lot of years of development to get to where it was possible to complete the same engine without needing those final touches. 

(Also interesting is that the very highest level of machine tool manufacturers still use hand scraping.)


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## Steamchick (Dec 13, 2022)

To get the tolerances of fit required in all modern engine manufacture and assembly plants there are many fits that are to tighter tolerances than can be manufactured. But because high speed gauging can measure the sizes so much more accurately than the manufacturing process, the sizes of certain features of parts are graded, then selectively assembled. 
E.g. The pistons are graded for bore fit (as are the bores in the cylinder block), the piston pins (gudgeon pins) are graded as are the related bores in the piston, the pins, ring packs, circlips and pistons are graded to combined weight for balancing with con-rod mass on the crank, main and big-end shells are graded for block and crank, con-rod and big-end, lots of parts in the valve train are graded, etc... 
In modelling, it is not uncommon to make more than the exact number of some parts, and fit or lap to fit according to manufactured size. 
It is not the fault of the Design Engineer specifying an "un-makeable" tolerance, but rather the skill of "the maker" to achieve the tolerance so the performance of the engine is achieved. A challenge met by many modellers.
K2


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## Tug40 (Dec 13, 2022)

When you have a Lowbed idling at the loading ramp waiting on a boom, bucket, pin boss, or some part you are machining, you have to strive for what’ll work in the real world, not perfection.
And you must know the difference.


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## Rocket Man (Dec 13, 2022)

My time is getting very short so I don't waste much of it doing unnecessary machining work.  I hope I have a work shop and a bicycle in the next life.


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 13, 2022)

If I were able to choose, I would prefer going while working in my shop on a new part for a crazy new project that is just starting to actually work, but I am afraid it might be while swinging a mattock in one of my wife's many gardens. Just make it quick and it will be fine, LOL.


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## vederstein (Dec 14, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> I don't care if they win the ugly contest



Intentionally ugly can sometimes be something cool to look at.


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## minh-thanh (Dec 14, 2022)

Tug40 said:


> , you have to strive for what’ll work in the real world, not perfection.
> And you must know the difference.


Yes I know that
  As you can see , the topic title is : "  Unsatisfied " 
I know perfection is impossible
  Here is the proof
​






 I can say: my cylinder is 100% straight, yes I can say that and no one can check but me, but that's a lie 
And I know it's good enough to pressurize the injectors, and I'm not worried about it  
    It's just that I sometimes have a part or two that I know are still usable, it's just that the surface isn't pretty or the bore is a bit off....
  If I choose perfection then I will definitely never be able to make any engine
  If I choose : " it 's fine , it doesn't matter ..." , again and again ...again.. then my machining experience , skills ... it will die
  It's like the crankshaft and a few other parts..., there are some members of the forum who make it very nice, if I give it a rating , theirs would be 10 and mine would probably be 4.5.
   The goal is that I have to try to get a 6, 7 or 8 and I will probably never get a 10. But I don't like 6, 7 or 8


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## Rocket Man (Dec 16, 2022)

vederstein said:


> Intentionally ugly can sometimes be something cool to look at.



This is intentionally ugly.  Beauty does not make it fun better.


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 16, 2022)

Rocket man,
Just like the instruction label on my can of contact cement, "aggressively tacky". 
I love them!
At one speed I could envision a steam powered vibratory sander, LOL. Just glue some sandpaper to the base, ha ha.


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## Steamchick (Dec 17, 2022)

Rocket Man, I think these are great! - I would be proud to have made them.
But a bit of dynamic balancing would be an improvement, perhaps?
And I hope you are suitable insulated and earthed in case of something unplanned happening to the 120V!
Like steam, 120V can be deadly stuff. (stay below 24V as that won't bite!). More than 50V can stop your heart... (Don't try it, just in case....) DC locks muscles, but AC oscillates them. Neither is good for the heart.
Do you ever light a fire beneath the boiler? - Good to see a steam engine "in steam" occasionally.
Well done anyway!
K2


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## Rocket Man (Dec 18, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> This is intentionally ugly.  Beauty does not make it fun better.



It is no longer possible to fix the typo.  That sucks.  fun = run


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## stanstocker (Dec 20, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> It is no longer possible to fix the typo.  That sucks.  fun = run


I sort of liked the "beauty doesn't make it fun better" phrase!  A bit stilted perhaps, but the sort of thing that you read, pause, then smile.

Well done,
Stan


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## H. K. Barrows (Sunday at 2:33 PM)

I have just started a v8. for good luck I bought 2 pcs to make the crank. Darn I just might get lucky. The Best for all.H.K. Barrows


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## minh-thanh (Sunday at 9:30 PM)

H. K. Barrows said:


> I have just started a v8. for good luck I bought 2 pcs to make the crank. Darn* I just might get lucky*. The Best for all.H.K. Barrows


I do not think so .
   That proves you have more experience in machining, careful and meticulous ... than me


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## Steamchick (Monday at 1:08 AM)

Hi Minh-Than, it's not "more experience" that Mr Barrows is showing, just "good planning" - and optimism!  One piece to practice, and find the settings for the best job, the second to make the mistakes on, so he only needs to order 2 more pieces of metal when he has learned what will go wrong.... (If he is like me!). Then he'll end up with 1 crank, experience, and 1 spare lump of metal - IF HE IS LUCKY!
I was taught by 2 good expert machinists "Been There" and "Dunnit", so now I buy stock material "by the foot" instead of the inch, and sometimes get it right first time! My success is measured by the spare stock I hold, Lots of pieces just too short to make any more mistakes... It focusses my mind when I am on the last piece!

GOOD LUCK Mr. Barrows!
K2


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## minh-thanh (Monday at 3:49 AM)

Hi K2!


Steamchick said:


> Hi Minh-Than, it's not "more experience" that Mr Barrows is showing, just "good planning" - and optimism!  One piece to practice, and find the settings for the best job, the second to make the mistakes on, so he only needs to order 2 more pieces of metal when he has learned what will go wrong.... (If he is like me!). Then he'll end up with 1 crank, experience, and 1 spare lump of metal - IF HE IS LUCKY!


 
Maybe ...
  But he must have experience ( Must have a lot of experience in machining ) that helps him know  make a "good planning" , where to start , what to do next ? and the next step ....... and plus the calculation , careful , meticulous ... determines the success .
  Inexperience + Careless machining + luck : I think it will go to the trash 


Steamchick said:


> I was taught by 2 good expert machinists "Been There" and "Dunnit", so now I buy stock material "by the foot" instead of the inch, and sometimes get it right first time! My success is measured by the spare stock I hold, Lots of pieces just too short to make any more mistakes... It focusses my mind when I am on the last piece!


  That's my way too .


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## Lloyd-ss (Monday at 8:54 AM)

We talk a lot about our mistakes and how we improvise and fix them.

But how about the times when we are making a critical and difficult cut, and we measure it and it is perfect, and a big smile comes over our face as we stand back for a second and give ourselves a big pat on the back and say: "Darn, sometimes I am pretty darn good."

That really recharges the batteries.
Lloyd


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## Steamchick (Monday at 9:04 AM)

Thanks for that Lloyd.Fair point. 
Maybe authors of their builds should explain how they got it right as well as how they fixed the wrong-uns? That would be a great help to us all, but from the readers' perspective it is allg good, whatever the experts write.
Thanks, success makes us all smile.
K2


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## Rocket Man (Monday at 3:16 PM)

Steamchick said:


> Rocket Man, I think these are great! - I would be proud to have made them.
> But a bit of dynamic balancing would be an improvement, perhaps?
> And I hope you are suitable insulated and earthed in case of something unplanned happening to the 120V!
> Like steam, 120V can be deadly stuff. (stay below 24V as that won't bite!). More than 50V can stop your heart... (Don't try it, just in case....) DC locks muscles, but AC oscillates them. Neither is good for the heart.
> ...



I did have a factory 4x4 steam engine and boiler 22 years ago.  I sold the 4x4 to the man that owns the Memphis Queen steam boat.  If your every on the Memphis Queen you might see my old steam engine.  I don't remember who I sold the boiler too.  I did have pictures once but every time my computer crashes I loose pictures.  Never trust a comp
uter.


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## Richard Hed (Monday at 4:48 PM)

Rocket Man said:


> I did have a factory 4x4 steam engine and boiler 22 years ago.  I sold the 4x4 to the man that owns the Memphis Queen steam boat.  If your every on the Memphis Queen you might see my old steam engine.  I don't remember who I sold the boiler too.  I did have pictures once but every time my computer crashes I loose pictures.  Never trust a comp
> uter.


That's why I have 4 backup drives.


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## L98fiero (Monday at 11:20 PM)

Richard Hed said:


> That's why I have 4 backup drives.


That's technology for you, we can still read 4-5,000 year old cuneiform tablets and Egyptian hieroglyphs but can't read a 20 year old floppy disc.


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## timo_gross (Monday at 11:37 PM)

H. K. Barrows said:


> I have just started a v8. for good luck I bought 2 pcs to make the crank. Darn I just might get lucky. The Best for all.H.K. Barrows


Rule: If you buy two pieces of stock, you will need one. If you buy one piece you will need two .


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## timo_gross (Monday at 11:49 PM)

Lloyd-ss said:


> We talk a lot about our mistakes and how we improvise and fix them.
> 
> But how about the times when we are making a critical and difficult cut, and we measure it and it is perfect, and a big smile comes over our face as we stand back for a second and give ourselves a big pat on the back and say: "Darn, sometimes I am pretty darn good."
> 
> ...


Then after 10 minutes, when my back hurts from all the pat, I measure again and the part is too small   back to "normal".


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## minh-thanh (Tuesday at 12:56 AM)

timo_gross said:


> Rule: If you buy two pieces of stock, you will need one. If you buy one piece you will need two .


That is quite true . 


timo_gross said:


> Then after 10 minutes, when my back hurts from all the pat, I measure again and the part is too small   back to "normal".


In the past , when I machined a part , after measuring it , checking ... its dimensions - ID or OD was ok .
   Then, I make another part, just to be sure I measure the part again and the measurement is different this time - maybe during the machining of the material there is a heat related change..... .
  After 2 or 3 tests, the results are the same
   Now, I usually leave the part I just machined for at least 5 minutes and cool it with oil -with a small diameter part  and then measure to get the final result..


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## Steamchick (Tuesday at 2:40 AM)

Buy an inch - need a foot, buy a foot, need an inch and have stock for next time is a rule I follow, where possible. But why do I never have a bit of stock the right size for the next job?
K2


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## Mike Ginn (Tuesday at 4:35 AM)

I think it is worth making a few comments about computer storage.
Keep multiple copies (as per Richard's post) and ideally use cloud storage.
As technology moves forward make sure you also move data to updated media.
The same applies to software but there are usually work arounds.  Microsoft is very tolerant but programs like Autocad are very fussy about version control.  I usually save my Autocad files in a low version format such as 2010 in the knowledge that it will be compatible with other older programs.  There are however converters from Autocad.
Over the years you will find that media will change.  I have moved from 8inch to 5.25inch floppies and of course the most recent 3.5 inch hard floppies.  There were others most notably the Zip drives.  I still have data on 3.5inch floppies and have an external reader which plugs into the USB port - which is also being phased out.  Fortunately there are always adaptors and readers for these older systems/connectors so you should never be locked out of your data,
Remember also that hard drive interfaces change.  The older parallel IDE drives have been replaced by the serial SATA drives.  I keep adaptors to ensure I can read data from old IDE drives if needed.  As an aside I should add that when I replace/reload onto a new hard drive I always do it onto a blank/new drive and keep the old drive with it's data.  There will always be data which you forgot to recover.  Today I only use SSD drives.  On some motherboards these are directly attached or can have a new type of interface.
Finally you should always be able to recover your data but it could take a little effort!
Hope this helps someone.
Mike


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## ajoeiam (Tuesday at 9:03 AM)

Mike Ginn said:


> I think it is worth making a few comments about computer storage.
> Keep multiple copies (as per Richard's post) and ideally use cloud storage.
> As technology moves forward make sure you also move data to updated media.
> The same applies to software but there are usually work arounds.  Microsoft is very tolerant but programs like Autocad are very fussy about version control.  I usually save my Autocad files in a low version format such as 2010 in the knowledge that it will be compatible with other older programs.  There are however converters from Autocad.
> ...


I would agree with everything you're saying except your suggestion of cloud storage. 

As soon as you ship the storage somewhere else under someone else's control - - - -well - - - imo its no longer yours!

Sorry - - - my info is MY info and not for any other entity to paw through (and try to sell me crap relating to whatever).


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## metalmangler (Tuesday at 9:16 AM)

Mike Ginn said:


> and of course the most recent 3.5 inch hard floppies.
> Mike


In the programming department I inhabited these were known as 'Stiffies'. Caused a good few raised eyebrows amongst non-computer-literate colleagues...


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## Mike Ginn (Wednesday at 4:37 AM)

Regarding Cloud storage.  Its a personal choice and many find it coinvent since it can be seamless from phone/pc to cloud and is secure.  Yes you are giving away access to your data but in reality Google or others can't possibly read - or want to read - the mega volumes  of data stored - same applies to Alexa's ability to "listen" to conversations!  Whether we like it or not we live in a digital age were we accept many privacy issues because they are convenient.  Your phone continually tracks your location, many modern cars track your driving and journey and the data is kept in the cloud.  Your computer usage is tracked etc etc.  And then there is personal banking on the phone............
As we all move further into the digital world we each need to decide where our "red" lines are and accept that others will have different "red" lines.  
Its all about being comfortable with the technology offered and individually deciding on the balance of risk vs convenience.  I would suggest that cloud storage is the right choice of most people.
Mike
PS My only concern with cloud storage is the inability to access the data for whatever reason -  which is why I don't use the cloud!


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## L98fiero (Wednesday at 8:56 AM)

Mike Ginn said:


> Regarding Cloud storage.  Its a personal choice and many find it coinvent since it can be seamless from phone/pc to cloud and is secure.  Yes you are giving away access to your data but in reality Google or others can't possibly read - or want to read - the mega volumes  of data stored - same applies to Alexa's ability to "listen" to conversations!  Whether we like it or not we live in a digital age were we accept many privacy issues because they are convenient.  Your phone continually tracks your location, many modern cars track your driving and journey and the data is kept in the cloud.  Your computer usage is tracked etc etc.  And then there is personal banking on the phone............
> As we all move further into the digital world we each need to decide where our "red" lines are and accept that others will have different "red" lines.
> Its all about being comfortable with the technology offered and individually deciding on the balance of risk vs convenience.  I would suggest that cloud storage is the right choice of most people.
> Mike
> PS My only concern with cloud storage is the inability to access the data for whatever reason -  which is why I don't use the cloud!


That seems to be a 'frog in the pot' rationalization, and as for whether Google wants to listen to what Alexa hears, there isn't some guy sitting behind a computer listening to individual Alexa terminals, where does it end?


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## Richard Hed (Wednesday at 3:55 PM)

L98fiero said:


> That seems to be a 'frog in the pot' rationalization, and as for whether Google wants to listen to what Alexa hears, there isn't some guy sitting behind a computer listening to individual Alexa terminals, where does it end?


It doesn't end.  The only solution is to try to know what they are capable of (if it's possible it's 100% for sure they will do it) and not allow them to use it.  For instance, only a couple years ago one could take the battery out of one's phone or the sim card--not today!  But there is a solution for them following your every move:  get a metal case or even tinfoil (tinfoil makes good hats too) and wrap it in that.  radio waves do not pass thru metal.  

Another good thing is simply do not have one of the alexas or that other contraption.  It's not much different from having a corporate spy right in your livingroom/bedroom/kitchen.

Another thing is to have ALL your microphones and cameras covered when not in use.  I'm sure some of our brother and sister HMEMs will have other contributions.  (also, always keep a sharpened pitchfork next to your door wink wink)


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## Tug40 (Wednesday at 9:32 PM)

Also Richard, a sharpened pitchfork (and an axe) comes in handy when changing the oil in my Miata.


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## Richard Hed (Wednesday at 10:24 PM)

Tug40 said:


> Also Richard, a sharpened pitchfork (and an axe) comes in handy when changing the oil in my Miata.


AH!  I see the problem, your pitchfork is not really sharp!


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