# Emcoturn 120P



## rcfreak177 (Jan 29, 2012)

"YAAAAAAY

I found and purchased an Emco cnc lathe.

I managed to find this unit on Ebay, I do not know if it works or not yet and still have to arrange freight to get it from the USA to Perth Australia. If the unit is not working I will either repair it or convert it to function on the Mach 3 platform. The current operating system is Emcotronic T1. All in all I have a quality solid base to begin with.

Accessories include the operators and maintenance manuals, Pneumatic collet chuck and tail stock. Coolant tank. I will have to fit 3 phase power to my workshop as the rotary phase converter is not included .

I have a lot to learn about this type of machine but am sure I will figure it out.
Once I have the machine in my possession and tested I will post an update.
























Cheers Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jan 30, 2012)

I saw that listing. Are you able to get 380V 3 phase power? The transformer sold with these machines in the US took 220V 3 phase to 380V and had several taps so you could balance the phases and get the exact voltage required. The original control is very picky about input voltage.

I'm ready to start putting my Emco back together.

Greg


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## rcfreak177 (Jan 30, 2012)

G,day Greg,

I plan on getting a 415V 3 phase power supply to my workshop and was planning on using a 415V to 380V stepdown transformer between the supply and machine. I still have to source one. 

I have been following the build on your machine very closely, I cant believe how well the machine guards cleaned up, It is looking good so far. I see you are using servo motor with encoders, from what I have read up on servo's are very smooth running and much quieter than steppers. 

Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jan 31, 2012)

I understand the 220 to 380 transformers are very expensive here. So, if you find one without, you just retrofit. I hope you can somehow test it before spending on a transformer or converter.


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## coopertje (Jan 31, 2012)

Hi Baz,

Congratulations on your purchase! Its a great lathe, I have a 120 too and I love every bit of it. Mine came from a technical school and was hardly used. The paint inside near the 3 jaw chuck is hardly scratched. I purchased mine without the T1 control unit and main motor. This unit might work but is outdated. You can only transfer the CNC code over a serial link or program it directly in the T1. I prefer to have it on Mach3 for example. 

Since I just had the mechanics as a start I purchase 2 Berger lahr 5 phase stepper drives, a 2.2KW AC motor and a Flux-vector frequency converter. The performance is more then enough using the original stepper motors, speed is nice but the dove tails are not designed for very high speeds. Therefor servo motors do not make so much sense to use on these kinds of machines, they are optimal for machines having linear guides. Total conversion costs were about 750,- euros in components. 
Emco did something smart with there stepper construction. On the spindles for X and Z axis there are induction switches and indexing plates. They were able to detect missing pulses in case of a stepper stall. I did not dig into this in detail but I am thinking of designing some interface to detect missing pulses, in principle it just takes a digital counter, feed the program pulse to up count and the machine pulse to the downcount pin. Stop the machine when the counter value exceeds a preset value. 

If you are interested I can post some pics from my conversion, I do not want to "take" your post.

Regards Jeroen


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## rcfreak177 (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi Jeroen, 

I am not sure if I will need a 230v to 380v three phase step up transformer yet.
I have 415v three phase power and may need a step down transformer to 380v.
Do you know the maximum input voltage for one of these machines?

I understand the system is very outdated but for some crazy reason it appeals to me and was hoping to get it working.

I guess if it is too much of a challenge I will take the same route as you have and retrofit it. I have a few spare electrical parts from previous cnc conversion I have done on my mill and China import lathe which both run Mach3.

I would love to see some pics of you'r machine, Please do upload them.

Cheers Baz.


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## coopertje (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi Baz,

The machines are designed for 380V. However, in Europe we are increasing the voltage step by step to have 10% more. Many machines will run on the higher voltage, however its not healthy in my opinion. This will wear much quicker when running on a higher voltage. I have never seen the original electronics of the 120, but knowing Emco the main transformer in the machine must have different connections. The standard is 380V and the are most likely pins with or the text +10%, +15% or with the voltages written down. The conversion is nothing more then swapping the wire from one pin to another and you are save. I had the same issue on my Harrison trainer recently and did above.

In my opinion its is better to convert the machine straight away. The electronics are at least 20 - 25 years old and every day that they keep working you should consider yourself lucky. When it brakes down its difficult to locate the error and finding the spare parts will be complicated and most of all expensive! In the end you will convert it anyway, so why spend the time in learning the T1 when it is just temporary?? But as said, this is just my personal opinion, everybody should do whats best for them.

Below some pics (hope its not too much :-[ )

Machine shortly after arrival in the shop











Mounting the new 2.2KW AC motor. The shaft of the motor was too small, I made a sleve and new spline
















A look inside the turret. The operation is quite simple, it rotates freely in one direction and it has a mechanical lock in the other. The trick with locking is to use a PWM current limiter to not burn the motor (24VDC).






New electronics to control the 120


























Main spindle encoder and interfacing it to a PC. Replaced the original disk with one having just one slot. OH on the connector is the high lightswitch, OL is the lower one.
















Added a 15" touchscreen











I do not have pictures of the machine finished, however I have a movie of the machine up and running (sorry for the poor video quality..)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME8128i2Yp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME8128i2Yp0[/ame]

Hope above helps a bit and if something is not clear let me know.

Regards Jeroen


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## rcfreak177 (Feb 1, 2012)

Very nice, I probably will take the advice you give, Thank you.

I have to go away to work for 3 weeks, leaving in about 8 hours from now.

I will chat to you again when I get back. Thanks again.

Baz.


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## coopertje (Feb 1, 2012)

Ok. send me a PM when you are back, I do not keep track of all the posts overhere, very but to much to follow all!

Have a safe trip!

Regards Jeroen


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## mu38&Bg# (Feb 1, 2012)

The only thing I know about power for these machines is what I read online. Many people have issues with the quality of power and the spindle control. It will error is the power is not within spec. Some people could only run their machines when the neighborhood wasn't too loaded, or they had to move the transformer taps on a regular basis to get the machine running. There are still quite a few of these running on the original control, but most get put out to pasture when the quote comes for replacement spindle or servo drives boards.

I'm doing essentially what Jeroen did with a new 3ph motor. I picked a IEC 100 motor so the shaft and mounting would be the same. I would have just kept the steppers if I didn't have the Gecko servo drives already and I already have experience with the Geckos and servos. Mine will be a little faster , maybe 1800mm/min rapid, but I'll have 1 micron resolution if that makes any difference (the original spec says 1 micron, but working out the math on the motor, reduction, and ballscrew it's 2.5 microns). 5 phase stepper drives are not common but can be found mainly from Vexta. If you replace the motors with 2 phase steppers, you'll have to do 5 step microstepping and size motors for 280Ncm to achieve the same resolution and torque as the original, but rapid speed will be reduced unless your computer runs pretty fast.

I'm hoping to use the original spindle encoder to have rigid tapping.


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## coopertje (Feb 1, 2012)

Makes sense to me Greg. Related to the original encoder, it did not work with Mach3 in my case, the ref slot was too small giving problems at higher rpms (max 4000). With the new disk it works very well and it is easy to make.

Just out of curiosity, how do you achieve an accuracy of 1 micron? I think that the backlash in the spindels is much more then this. For me a repeatability within 0.01mm is more then acceptable for CNC, therefor having a stepper resolution of 2.5 micron is more then sufficient. 

Regards Jeroen


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## mu38&Bg# (Feb 1, 2012)

Not accuracy, but resolution. My servo motors have 5000 count encoders, but I'll be multiplying steps by 2 to keep the speed up so will see 2500 counts per rev. I don't know if it will be of any benefit. The machines are said to be accurate, but I'm not sure how accurate. I intend to use mine for some production work, so adding a small tool offset, I'd like to know that the machine could actually respond. It can be helpful when trying to remove tapers in parts due to worn ways. My ballscrews feel OK, but I'd replace them if they turn out to be a problem. I know were talking miniscule amounts here, but I was surprised to find that Emco claimed 1 micron resolution when the hardware was actually only capable of 2.5 micron. I have 2 micron resolution on my little CNC mill and would rather see more when using tiny tools. I've not made anything that needed it, though. I'm going with EMC2 and Mesa cards, but I'm unsure yet whether the spindle encoder will be provide too much data.

Greg


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## coopertje (Feb 1, 2012)

Greg, I re-read your post and you are absolutely right. One can never have too much resolution, in that case the final accuracy is determined by the weakest chain. I cannot help you with exact figures on accuracy, all I know is that mine repeats within 0.01mm when making 20 pieces after each other. I state within 0.01 because thats the accuracy of my caliper but in fact all 20 pieces where identical. I do not have any backlash compensation enabled. These machines are constructed very well and accurate made. They also were not very cheap! 

If you have the autolubrication pump on the machine, let it grease the guides every 10 minutes. I believe better a bit too much the too little.

Good luck with your machine, looking forward to your progress.

Regards Jeroen


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## leevalleycustoms (Mar 9, 2012)

Hi guys, ive just purchased a emcoturn 120 lathe and need some help??? i have it in my unit and i only have single phase power and the machine is 3 phase. Can anyone tell me what i can do to get this up and running??? ive been told of converters but dont know what ones to buy also generators. Please can someone let me know what i need to purchase as i really need this machine to be running.

Thanks in advance

kaine


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## mu38&Bg# (Mar 9, 2012)

I only know what I've read online. Practicalmachinist.com has a few threads and a couple regular posters that use these machines. It's possible to run it from a phase converter, but it has to be a very high quality unit. The machine is not tolerant of phase voltage imbalance as I understand it.

Being stuck with single phase myself, I didn't even consider the original control as an option.

Greg


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## coopertje (Mar 12, 2012)

I second Greg. It will be a lot of work to convert the machine to single phase, all transformers, coolant pump motor, lubrication pump motor etc are 3 phase..... 

Not possible to get a 3 phase connection? The machine is worth the trouble of that!!

Regards Jeroen


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## rcfreak177 (Mar 24, 2012)

*"WAITING WAITING STILL WAITING"*

Not long to go now, I have been tracking the ship my lathe is on (OOCL Atlanta) It is now in China.
Due into Perth Australia on 5/4/12, Then a week or so to clear customs.

*I can't wait*

Baz.


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## DICKEYBIRD (Mar 24, 2012)

I know what you mean Baz although my lathe purchase isn't coming from as far away as yours!

I'm on pins & needles waiting to get my "new" Denford ORAC CNC shipped from the Detroit area to my shop in Collierville, TN...a mere 750 miles or so. I'm _way_ past ready to start on it. It's a little feller, 8x16 based on an EMCO Compact 8. It's just the bed, carriage, spindle, ballscrews, motor mounts and base and is a low-time machine from a school. Perfect for my hodge-podge of parts waiting to go on it. ;D

My manual lathe is a middle 80's Compact 8 clone so all my chucks & tooling will fit perfectly. I got lucky! I'll start a thread on it when it gets a bit further along.


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## rcfreak177 (Mar 24, 2012)

Excellent I am looking forward to the thread.

I have done a bit of research on the Denford Orac, from what people are saying out there they seem to be a very solid and good quality machine and are quite sought after.

Please do keep us posted with lots of pictures once you get under way.

Cheers Baz.


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 10, 2012)

Yipeee! 

My Emco lathe has arrived in Fremantle Port Australia, 3 ships later and several countries it made it all the way from Euclid Ohio, USA.

Now I have to wait for around 2 weeks for customs clearance and unpacking of the sea container then I will be able to pick it up, I can't wait. ;D

Baz.


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## Swede (Apr 28, 2012)

Is it there yet? Is it there yet?   ;D


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## DICKEYBIRD (Apr 28, 2012)

Swede  said:
			
		

> Is it there yet? Is it there yet?  ;D


My sentiments exactly!


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 28, 2012)

Yep Sure is,

I picked up my new toy on Friday and now have it at home. I will put up some photo's soon.
The overall condition is actually better than expected. Funny thing I disconnected the air supply to the tail stock and there was still air pressure there, Gave me a fright.

There may be a card missing from the controller, It shows it on the drawing inside the rear cover of the box but I cant seem to find it on any of the schematics.

The card is called the clamping device card F1Z 333 000, F1Z 431 000.

I also have all the original manuals with the machine, But no MSD tape.


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 29, 2012)

Alright,

Still no photo's, I have powered up the machine and much to my surprise "IT WORKS" The collet chuck works, The tail stock works The MSD is sill in the control 
(now I have to figure how to retrieve it for the future) all the axis move as they should.

I am stoked. There is one drama, I get an error 50 Turret hardware failure when I try to index to the next tool. I have tracked this down to the locking pin on the back of the tool plate is seized, Not a big issue just a matter of pulling the unit apart and cleaning it up. I did some research and found that the board I previously thought was missing is actually for a milling machine. These controllers were used on lathes and mills. there was an upgrade for the mill which was a programmable vice which is what the boars controls. 

Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (Apr 30, 2012)

That's great! How did you power your machine? Mine is still in the garage in pieces.


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## rcfreak177 (May 1, 2012)

Hi Greg,

I used a step down transformer, It takes 415V three phase to 380V.

I turned the machine in this morning and one of the resistors fried on the z axis drive.
I should be able to fix this though/

*If anybody out there has boards of any sort or parts for the Emcotronic T1 or T02 controller Mill or Lathe, working or not I will be willing to purchase them. I would love to be able to have spares readily available.
*
I know this sounds silly as retrofitting this machine would be more reliable but I somehow like the feeling of having a piece of history. I believe that Emco and the technology they had in 1987 was way ahead if its time.

Cheers Baz.


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## rcfreak177 (May 3, 2012)

WOW!

I logged an enquiry with Emco too see if they still had stock of these boards in question.
I did get a prompt reply from a specialist.

Dear Sir, 
You have the option to send the boards to Emco, We will repair them and test for 24 hours.
The cost will be as follows,

Repair stepper drive:   1625 Euro
repair turret drive board: 790 Euro   

Regards the Emco team ??? ??? ???

I can't believe the prices, Although I am sure that the quality of repair and service will be excellent.
I could have them reverse engineered in China for this sort of money. Then they would be readily available to everybody.


What an eye opener.

Cheers Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (May 3, 2012)

Yes, now you understand why these get put out to pasture when they fail in the machine shop, and why they get retrofitted in the home shop.

There is a guy on the Yahoo group that will repair axis boards for a reasonable price. I think he's on PM too.


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## rcfreak177 (May 3, 2012)

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the lead.

I have found the guy who will repair the boards. I think his name is Wrench on the Practical Machinist
forum. 

I have managed to get my head around the circuit layout on the boards.

I guess I am lucky as I deal with very complex electronics at work as a product specialist repairing all the faults that our fitters can't work out on Atlas Copco Drill rigs.
These machines are running either PLC or can-bus systems and have found the majority of faults are electrical. With the Emco machines being designed in Austria and Atlas Copco being designed in Sweden they both have a very similar way of designing electronics. definitely a bit different to the Japanese.

I am a stubborn bugger and will persist until I get it right.
I also agree retrofit is the most sensible option though.

I am looking forward to you'r build on the Emco. The photo's that you uploaded were great, I can' believe how the machine cleaned up, Looks a million bucks.
I have also never seen one before as they are extremely rare in Australia.
Does you'r machine have the pneumatic tail stock and collet chuck?
And do you have any plans for the tool turret control as of yet?

Cheers Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (May 3, 2012)

Check the Yahoo group as well, I'm not sure if that the same guy.

We'll I've been slacking on making room for it in my workshop. I have to rearrange virtually everything to make it fit the way I want. I do have a pneumatic tail stock, and a manual tail stock which I'll likely sell. I got the machine without any chucks at all. I did find a manual 5C quick chuck and I plan to buy a decent 3 jaw. It's just as well it doesn't have the pnuematic chuck as I don't be myself doing much intense production. I was at the NAMES show a couple weeks ago and met the guy I purchased my first lathe from. It just so happens that he recently converted an Emco PC55 lathe and wrote code for that turret which appeared to be exactly the same design as the C6/120. I hope to make a visit with him soon to see his shop. I have a paying project to finish in the next few days, so maybe soon I'll get back to the Emco.

Greg


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## rcfreak177 (May 18, 2012)

After much delay I have managed to get the tool turret on my 120P working.

turns out there was 2 blown photo interrupters on the turret board.
In diagnosing this I blew up the L298 driver chip on the motor controller board as well as one of the 
IC chip sets.

Funny story this one as I was not sure which one of the chips was faulty so I replaced all of them,
I also used a push in socket on the board so if they fail again in the future all I have to do is pry off the old chips and then push in new ones, Also replaced all the diodes. (a couple of diodes had leakage)

After doing all this I still had a error 50. Turns out that previous to me getting this machine someone else had a go at repairing this fault. The turret motor wires were reversed and also the input wires for the position sensors all mixed up.

At the end of the day I fixed it (with around a week of trying) and it is now working.

I have checked all the other functions and everything is in working order.

So now I have so many electrical spares for this machine it should live for another 25 years (touch wood)

*Wow what a learning curve*

Here is a somewhat blurry picture of the components that I changed

Cheers Baz.


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## rcfreak177 (Jun 8, 2012)

Not much happening with the Emco and the models lately, I bought a new house and am in the middle of moving out. I just love moving *"NOT"* The household stuff is easy, My workshop is another story.
I will be building a new home for my toys soon. Was thinking along the lines of a workshop size of 
8 metres wide x 9 metres long with a height of 2.7 metres to the gutters. Can't wait until it is all done and life is business as usual.

Cheers Baz.


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## ShedBoy (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi Baz, good to here from you. I did the house rebuild thing but went the whole hog and demolished the old one and started again. New shed was on the cards from the start and was the last thing to be done, but it was worth it in the end. Worst thing I found with moving shed is now it takes me along time to find things, I am always changing the layout to make it better which compounds the first problem. One thing I did put in my shed that I am finding extremely handy is a large sink with water supply. Moving machines is never a fun job. Have fun and keep us informed.

Brock


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## leevalleycustoms (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi 

I've purchased a emcoturn 120 cnc lathe and it's 3 phase, I only have single phase in my unit. I purchased a 3 phase 6.3 kva 415v diesel generator hoping this would be sufficient, but the text on the screen was bouncing around and then it disappered. I'm really in need of some help to get this lathe running, I'm not to clued up on what I need. So can someone help me out and send a list of what I may need to purchase otherwise I will need to get an engineer out and they charge a fortune. Please help


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## rcfreak177 (Aug 24, 2012)

The logic side of the 120 works off single phase. Running the machine off a generator is not a good idea as the voltage is not stable enough. Also the power supply needs to be 380v on the 3 phase side.

I powered my machine via 240v single phase in order to test the logic and was able to move the axis's test the collet chuck and 
tail stock, screen etc.

It is hard to say what you need, You may have a fault in the CRT monitor card. You will need the electrical schematics and also a solid background in electronics.

I would be very careful poking and prodding if you do not have the Electrical knowledge.

*As we all know Electric shocks can Kill.*

Cheers Baz.


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## leevalleycustoms (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm thinking of selling my Emcot lathe 120, I can't seem to find out what I require to power up machine as I only have single phase. Anyone interested please reply.


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## petesurrey (Sep 17, 2012)

I am interested in your emco please message me


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## rcfreak177 (Jun 30, 2014)

It has been a while since I posted to this thread

Soooo

this is where I am at.
The Emco 120P lathe has had a birthday,

* Spindle rebuilt
* Auto tool turret rebuilt
* Auto Tail-stock rebuilt
* Chuck actuator rebuilt
* New 85mm chuck fitted, also have the 5C collet closer
* Panels sandblasted and powdercoated
* New stepper motors fitted
* 2K painted several components

It is dummy assembled at the moment

I still need to powdercoat the base now and cut some perspex to fit the door etc
 re-assemble and she will be up and running again.

This machine was good before, should be like new when finished. This is the only Emco 120P cnc I know of in Perth and one of 6 I know of in the country.  I would love to get my hands on a few more of these machines and enough work too keep them busy full time.

I have retained the original stepper pulleys and belts
There is a 2.2kw 3 phase and vfd motor mounted, (5000 rpm spindle)
I am running an Andrew Barrow etc board for the atc.
I am going to run a mini atx motherboard and stepper drives, b/o board etc all mounted in the original electrical box mounted on the side of the machine

This is when I first purchased the machine












Here is a couple of pictures after rebuilding the ATC,tailstock etc and painiting with 2K paint









Here is a of picture of the 2.2kw motor and vfd
I made a new motor pulley to suit the motor shaft. The old pulley was seized on the original spindle drive.





 the Autogrip 3P-03 chuck that I found.
This chuck mounts directly to the spindle although needs an adaptor for the actuator-chuck made





And a few pictures of the panels after powder-coating. The base still needs to be done and I also have taken the old stickers off very carefully and my local sign writer is making some new ones for me which will be identical.












This is a pretty basic build compared to some of the other tasks I have undertaken so I don't know what else to say really. The pictures don't do it much justice. It looks great in real.

Cheers.
Baz.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 1, 2014)

Looks good. What type of bearings did your spindle have in it? I thought I read some 120 have greased bearings.

Greg


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## rcfreak177 (Jul 2, 2014)

Hi Greg. I can't remember the exact spec but the bearings were a greased angular contact type


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## rcfreak177 (Jul 9, 2014)

I have the new stickers that I had made fitted to the machine now.
Must say I am very happy with the outcome.

There is an optical illusion in the first picture, it looks crooked when looking at the photo, this was doing my head in so I had to check (half a dozen times)
turns out it is out by 0.5mm, good enough for a sticker, looks straight when standing in front of it.













I am starting to get excited as the project comes closer to the end. This is by far the best build I have done yet.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 9, 2014)

That looks nice. I stopped by a powder coating shop today with the stand and covers for my bandsaw and his prices were reasonable. I'll also be taking the Emco enclosure to him.


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 25, 2015)

After much delay I am happy to have taken the first cuts on my machine. I am wrapped with the outcome.

The surface finish and sizing is excellent, the machine is quiet.

I preformed a test a few weeks back and clamped a part in the chuck, dis connected the air supply and turned the machine all off. I then came back 3 weeks later to find the part still solidly clamped. I did rebuild the actuator, it seems the seals and the internal sequence valve are working great.

Couple of small thing to do, button it all up, job done.

Here is a short video and a picture of the sample part I made.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9-pqP8aaU0[/ame]


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## canadianhorsepower (Apr 25, 2015)

coopertje said:


> Ok. send me a PM when you are back, I do not keep track of all the posts overhere, very but to much to follow all!
> 
> Have a safe trip!
> 
> Regards Jeroen



nice job did you keep the same stepper motors

Luc


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## mu38&Bg# (Apr 25, 2015)

Great! Is it me or is your turret faster than the original?

I'll start reassembling my turret soon. I made some new coupling parts to install a new turret motor. Mine should be capable of 360° in a second or so, but it will depend on how it tunes.

Greg


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 25, 2015)

canadianhorsepower said:


> nice job did you keep the same stepper motors
> 
> Luc



Hi Luc,

the stepper motors are Nema 34 906 oz in.


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## rcfreak177 (Apr 25, 2015)

dieselpilot said:


> Great! Is it me or is your turret faster than the original?
> 
> I'll start reassembling my turret soon. I made some new coupling parts to install a new turret motor. Mine should be capable of 360° in a second or so, but it will depend on how it tunes.
> 
> Greg



Hi Greg,

The turret does appear a bit faster than it was originally.

I am running the default motor parameters that Andrew Barrow supplied with his ETC V2 board.

Wow! 360deg in a second, that is really fast. Will you be using the Barrow Dynamics board? or your own setup


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## mu38&Bg# (Apr 26, 2015)

I don't know anything about the Barrow board. Mine will be a servo and use a an axis control in LinuxCNC. i just hope the old turret encoder still works so I don't have to tell the turret where home is.

Greg


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## mnay (Apr 28, 2015)

Great job on the rebuild and hats off to you for taking on such a task.
Looks like it is all worth it.

Mike Nay


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## rcfreak177 (May 6, 2015)

mnay said:


> Great job on the rebuild and hats off to you for taking on such a task.
> Looks like it is all worth it.
> 
> Mike Nay



Thanks Mike, 

It has been a long road. Now the paneling has to be stripped down and all joints sealed with silicone to avoid coolant leaking everywhere.

I am happy with the outcome. The total investment in this machine is around $6500 AUS which is around what a reasonable condition used machine sells for.

I am confident it will pay for itself quite quickly.


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