# Flame Eater begins...



## winklmj (Sep 1, 2010)

Time to start on the Jan Ridder's Flame Eater. This will be a slow build for me as I only get a few hours to work now and then. 2nd engine, first time working with cast iron and doing any deep boring, etc... Should be a fun learning experience. My machines are in "inches" so I'm converting from metric and fudging the numbers when I can.

The "shop". Has to be cleaned up and rolled away every nite so the cars can go back inside (major PITA):







I turned the cylinder OD yesterday. Sorry--no pics. Got to use my 1-2" mic for the 1st time. 

The fins setup. Got to use my home-made carriage-stop/DI-holder and 2" DI:





Just finished up the cylinder fins. 





Turned out OK I think. I don't have a 2mm tool and didn't want to grind one--so 1/16" is close enough and I recalculated the dimensions ending up with a few more "thinner" fins than on the plans. I don't think it will matter but if it does I've shot myself in the foot from the very beginning:





More as it happens.


----------



## Deanofid (Sep 2, 2010)

That's a nice start! Making fins right off the bat makes for a nice show.
I think you're right, the fin width shouldn't matter for this piece.

Thanks for the new thread!

Dean


----------



## jolijar (Sep 2, 2010)

How do you like the microlux lathe? I am debating on getting a 7x16 microlux. How is the quality? I like the fins btw keep up the good work Thm:


----------



## speedhound (Sep 2, 2010)

Hi, which one are you makeing.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 2, 2010)

The Microlux lathe is OK--typical of all the other SIEG 7x machines. I got it because of the extra-length, cam-lock tailstock, and the tru-inch dials. Not having to clean all the goop off was a bonus. It still needs tweaking just like the other 7x machines. I have the Microlux mill to go along with it. If I had more room or a dedicated shop I'd want bigger machines. 


Jan calls it the "Flame-eater with internal valve".


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 2, 2010)

Nice start, I'm sure the fins will be absolutely fine! Watch out when it comes to drilling the long hole for the valve rod, this is where mine almost got ruined.

Vic.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 2, 2010)

Omnimill  said:
			
		

> Watch out when it comes to drilling the long hole for the valve rod, this is where mine almost got ruined.



Mind sharing how so? Binding as it breaks through each fin and wants to wobble off center a bit maybe? I'll use a freshly sharpened bit.


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 2, 2010)

winklmj  said:
			
		

> Mind sharing how so? Binding as it breaks through each fin and wants to wobble off center a bit maybe? I'll use a freshly sharpened bit.



I very carefully set the cylinder up in the vice on my mill but the drill still wandered. If I was doing it again I would mark and drill from both ends - unless anyone else has some good ideas? :-\

Vic.


----------



## Troutsqueezer (Sep 2, 2010)

Started with the part that is the most fun to make, huh? I don't blame ya. Nice job, the pics are good too. I'm getting ready to spin the fins on my Hit 'N Miss. 

-Trout


----------



## winklmj (Sep 2, 2010)

Bored the cylinder this evening. No boring boring pics 

Parted off:





Something to catch it when it's cut loose:





Flipped and faced off to final length.





I must've made 10 spring passes when boring it out. Ended up about 2-thou oversize--no biggie but I was trying to hit it dead-on. My hole gauges say it's pretty darn close all the way through--at lease as best I can measure with them--certainly within the 3-thou Jan recommends.





Must lap it still--dowel and some valve grinding compound maybe?

Onto the mill next.


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 3, 2010)

Wink,

I made two cylinders when I made mine, and by using the bore test bar as the final lap, both ended up perfectly parallel and the same size. Then it was just a matter of turning the pistons to fit and very gently lapping them to the bores. The better you can get them at this stage, the better it will run.

The same goes for the sliding valve, it should be 'silky' smooth in the bore without any lubricant.

If you are using the later plans, with the bearings at either end of the operating rod hole, you shouldn't have any difficulty. I would check on which version you have, as the ones with the bearings in either end makes drilling the hole a piece of cake. The earlier version required a long series drill to reach thru the length of the cylinder (I used the old version and it was a pain making up the longer drill).

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2084.0

There have been a few builds on here of that engine, so I would suggest you root them out and have a read (or get the lads to give you the links to their posts), then any problems you are liable to encounter have already been pointed out, and you won't make the same mistakes.

BTW, by the time you get it running, you will realise just how fickle they are to setting up. But don't give up, because they are a fascinating engine to run.

I can't seem to be able to find my original build, maybe it was one of the ones lost when we moved to a private host, but here is a follow up, and does contain some info on burner types and positioning.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=212.0

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=350.0

Keep going, by the looks of what you have already done, you will have no trouble getting a good runner.


Bogs


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 3, 2010)

Good idea Bogs, this is my build, which is still unfinished :wall: I must get out to the shop and finish it off!

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9139.0

Vic.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 3, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> ...by using the bore test bar as the final lap, both ended up perfectly parallel and the same size. Then it was just a matter of turning the pistons to fit and very gently lapping them to the bores.



Not sure what a bore test bar is. Did you have something previously turned the right diameter that you used? I was measuring with something like these:





I had searched for lapping tips earlier and found the wood dowel and paste, flap disks, or brake-cylinder hones. I don't have an adjustable reamer so that's out. Should I even bother lapping at this point (and risk getting something out of round) or do it after turning the piston and valve and then just run them in with each other?


----------



## NickG (Sep 3, 2010)

Nice work Winklmj,

here is the log to my build : http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6803.0

nice to see another in the making - as Bogs says, a little perseverence may be needed with this one!

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Sep 3, 2010)

Beautiful cylinder. Nice job.


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 3, 2010)

Wink,

If ever I am making a very critical bore, I always make up a test bar, one end exact size, and the other end 0.002" smaller. Both about 1/4" longer than the bore length.

Use the small end until it just slides in, then use the exact end for your very fine boring to size.

I use a brass test bar, then when it gets to exact size fit, I put a tiny bit of fine abrasive on the test bar and lap to final finish, feeding from both ends.

I find that this is the quickest and easiest method for me to get a perfect bore. Other people have their own methods.

Then make your piston to a tight sliding fit, then a very fine lap of piston to bore.

I would only use this very close fitting system on this type of engine, and where both piston and cylinder are of the same material. Other types normally require larger running clearances, especially if rings are being used. But I would still use the test bar for doing the bore.


Bogs


----------



## winklmj (Sep 3, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> If ever I am making a very critical bore...



Good tip. Thanks for that. I'll use it next time ;D For now I guess I'll turn up a lapping bar and go at it with some paste. And then lap a bit more with the piston and valve once they're made.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 4, 2010)

On to the Mill. My z-axis DRO sure comes in handy. (I have scales for the x and y too but have been too lazy to install them):





Flame flat and port. The flat was easy (or so I thought) . I don't have any metric end mills. The smallest center-cutter I have is 3/16". So I drilled 3 4mm holes then ate away at the remainder with my the side of my 1/8" ball-end mill (the tinyist I have):






Then looked at the plans and figured out I didn't make the flat long enough and had to mill away one more fin.

Port close up:





Flats for the cylinder mounts were next:





They came out pretty square:





Center drill, drill, and tap 10-32 (converting to inches where I can):





Struggled with how to setup for the push-rod hole. I knew the diameter but couldn't figure out how to accurately pick up the edge of the cylinder. Decided to use my co-ax indicator and find the center then offset from there:





Drilling 4mm:





I wandered off by about 5 thou (as best I can measure) at the opposite end. I don't think it'll be any trouble. I proably shoulda' done this in two steps maybe 2mm followed by a 4mm. 

Done with the cyl for now:









A bit of a break then back at it this evening.


L8er,

Mike


----------



## NickG (Sep 5, 2010)

Good work Mike,

I for the bore on mine I just reamed it with an adjustable reamer and the finish was good enough straight from my lathe on the piston.

The beauty of the cylinder is, not much of it is critical - only the size and position of the port, the squareness you mentioned and the position of the hole for push rod don't matter!

Nick


----------



## Deanofid (Sep 5, 2010)

You made great progress, Mike. Thanks for all the great pics!

Dean


----------



## winklmj (Sep 5, 2010)

Bushing installed:






My 1st attempt (ever) at lapping. Turned a broom stick into an end-lap (nice fit at the end and smaller in the middle so I could run the cyl all the way past). Added a bit of valve grinding compound and had at it. Was looking more for a polish and smoothing than trying to change the size. 





Rot-Roh Scooby! It revealed a small flaw. Looks like drilling for one of the cylinder mounts it almost broke through. You can see the pimple in the lower right--cannot feel it at all though:






Piston and Valve were next. 1st attempt was a biG fat PHAIL! But it gave me some good measurements to work from. .7105 fit but was way too tight and .7070 was way too small. This 2nd attempt ended up at .7095 and seems like it will work. I'm not doing them again unless they don't.






Parted off a chunk for the piston and this is the valve hollowed out:





It was a long day with a little bit of progress. That's where I stopped today.

This is a movie--click to view in Photobucket. It's the valve and a 4-40 screw substituting for the pivot stud and only the rough cut piston (not even hollowed out) installed in the cylinder. It's all completely dry and clean--no oil. Moving the valve makes the piston move! Hopefully this is close enough tolerances (and not too loose) for it to run.


----------



## NickG (Sep 6, 2010)

It will be a good enough fit and should work as long as the friction is low enough - it looks it from your video - nice 1 :bow:


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 6, 2010)

No need to worry over that almost break thru, that isn't in a critical area at all.

I would suggest you look at Nick's build before bending up the wire operating rod, and think about putting a stop on it near the bend as Nick did. 
Because I followed an earlier plan, mine was silver soldered at a sharp right angle and actually works as it's own stop. Because of that, the sliding valve always goes to the perfect inwards position.


Bogs


----------



## winklmj (Sep 7, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> I would suggest you look at Nick's build before bending up the wire operating rod, and think about putting a stop on it near the bend as Nick did.



I saw that. Was going to add a collar and then had an idea. Make the rod that goes through the valve longer on the "flame-side". Long enough to reach to the opposite side of the cyl. That way it way it could act as a stop. Today I stumbled upon a youtube vid of a design that looks like that!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWNjaxVmUzQ[/ame]

It's hard to see but they don't have a collar but do use the bent rod design. Worth a try--if it doesn't work it's just a little trimming and adding a collar.

Mike


----------



## NickG (Sep 8, 2010)

Good idea, that should do the same trick without the messy collar. I also did it because I was experimenting with different amounts of overlap when I was struggling to get it to run but I can't remember whether I tried it without the collar. Think it'd need something to stop it being sucked in too far though.

Nick


----------



## b.lindsey (Sep 8, 2010)

You are making a lot of progress Mike. That cylinder looks great to me...keep up the fine work.

Bill


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 8, 2010)

Looking good Mike!

Vic.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the comments. Got a little done the past few days. 

Piston, valve, push-rod, striker. Push-rod is part of a broken spoke from my mountain-bike (I have a few of those ):





Striker (will fine tune the bolts later):





Extra length push-rod (will trim to final fit later):






Now a question. It seems the valve only overlaps the port by about 1.2mm when it's closed. I've double checked all my measurements and they're pretty much spot on. Is this overlap enough? If not, it means I may need to make a longer pivot stud for the valve, drill the hole a bit higher up on it, or switch to a collar like Nick has so the overlap would be adjustable. 

Got my bearings today. Tried a bearing supplier that I've used before--$12.00 US each for the big ones and $8 for the small one. ??? No thanks. Found them at a RC/Hobby store $14 total for two big and two small. Comparable to what I found on the internet so those will do for now. 



And, finally, a tip (maybe?) to share. Here's how I set up for drilling to a set depth on the lathe.

Set a feeler gauge between part and bit (this keeps the tip of the bit from going into the center-drilled hole):





Set DI at thickness of feeler gauge. I do this with the tailstock loosely clamped and wind in or out to get it set, then clamp it--love the cam-lock and the tailstock flag comes in handy:





Remove feeler, wind tailstock until DI reads zero. Tip of drill would be just touching the part:





Drill away. Need to work on a better mag mount for the DI though--that one's a bit big.


----------



## NickG (Sep 10, 2010)

Great work and great pics too :bow:

I had mine running last night because my 4 year old wanted to see it - great to watch! Made me realise how critical the position of the flame is again!

Mine needs to heat up for about 10 mins with burner first as I use engine oil on it - I and a few other people have found this stops the combustion products from adhering to it necessitating strip downs. It causes too much drag on some peoples engines but on mine it seems to help seal too. The downside is it gets oil dripping on the base plate - I should really put an oil cup on the top of each end of the cylinder like 'poppin' flame licker has on the front end. These engines usually require heating first though, without oil they may run initially for a few seconds but then condensation forms and stops them, takes a while to get to temperature.

The 1.2mm overlap sounds about spot on so I wouldn't worry about that.

You're getting there, can't wait to see it running!

Nick


----------



## winklmj (Sep 12, 2010)

Today's progress. Flywheel. Turns out the solid piece of brass I thought I had for the flywheel wasn't big enough. And this other piece of "brass" tube I had is really a piece of bronze--or at least I think it is. PITA to cut and machine. I turned a piece of aluminum to press into it. Bronze in the toaster, Aluminum in the freezer and few whacks with a hammer and I got this. I think the two-tone is gonna look nice:












Started the Crankshaft:





And whatever you call this piece--Crankweb, crankdisk, lobe? Anyway--here it is:






I don't think I'll make it Y-shaped like the plan. Maybe drill some extra holes to lighten it up.





Then started roughing out the flywheel. 





Planned on making it look like the plans. I kinda like the stepped look and shadows the rough cut lines make. Too bad none of it was measured and it would be too hard to replicate on the other side. Will have to incorporate a design like that into the next flywheel:





That's as far as I got--thunder and lighting storms shut me down. I don't like leaving the expensive equipment plugged in during storms. Back at it tomorrow hopefully.


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Sep 13, 2010)

winklmj  said:
			
		

> I think the two-tone is gonna look nice:



I think you're right. If you polish to a high gloss, you will like it even more.

Great job.


----------



## Deanofid (Sep 13, 2010)

Nice. The two tone flywheel will set it off. Keep it up!

Dean


----------



## winklmj (Sep 13, 2010)

Turning the flywheel. What a pain. I think I used every tool I have--left hand, right hand, boring bar, facing tool. Changed countless times and re-angled to get it to cut the way I needed it to:





Ohhhh, something shiny:





Nice fit on the crankshaft. One minor screw up. You can see it comparing this photo and the one above. Below is the 1st side I did. I read the plans as the whole hub needed to be 10mm. Well, there's a step on the end that needs to be 10mm--the rest is supposed to be 14. I caught it when it was down to about 12mm--arghhh. No biggie, I turned the other side correctly and that will have to be where I put the grub screw so I have enough threads:










Onto the mill with it next time.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 15, 2010)

Got the flywheel holes finished last nite. 2 holes done:





All 6 done:





What I used to index the holes. Bolted flywheel to a plumbing fitting I had.





Today I tapped for the for the grub screw. 6-32 (smallest I had) instead of 3mm. I just eye-balled the angle:





Onto the connecting rod. Flycut a piece of brass. Super glued it to a piece of aluminum. The brass was shear-cut so the edges were rolled and it was cupped. This is after the 2nd pass:





Finished flycutting one side. Took about 10 thou to get it flat. The other side was just as bad.





Truing up the edges:





Wiggler finding an edge so I can locate the bearing hole:





Bearing test fit. My 8mm drill comes out close enough. Might need a drop of loctite just to make sure:











Then a screw up. Used the dials to move over for the "wrist pin" on the piston end. Easy enough...ready to drill...and grabbed the 2.5mm bit instead of the 2mm. :wall: It'll probably still work but now I've got to turn down a pin instead of just using one of those broken bicycle spokes I've got. Or I might just make another connecting rod all together--that piece of brass is wide enuf still.


----------



## kustomkb (Sep 15, 2010)

Looking good!

I'm a big fan of the aluminum centre and brass outer rim flywheels. Done it a few times myself.

Nice progress pics too.


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Sep 15, 2010)

Beautiful flywheel.
I like the two-tone too.
What did you use to chamfer the holes?


----------



## Troutsqueezer (Sep 16, 2010)

>winklmj: Too bad none of it was measured and it would be too hard to replicate on the other side. Will have to incorporate a design like that into the next flywheel

I've run into this situation a couple of times. The thing is, you can never see both sides of the flywheel at the same time so there's nothing to compare against. You can make one side completely different than the other and it looks fine from either direction. 

The flywheel looks nice. Reminds me of my last one but I had to use aluminum on the outside of the wheel. Not as much weight but the inside brass added some weight that wouldn't have been there otherwise.


----------



## b.lindsey (Sep 16, 2010)

Beautiful job on the flywheel Mike, and I like the use of the plumbing fitting too as a guide for the hex hole pattern. 

Bill


----------



## winklmj (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks again for the comments.

I have a set of chamfering/countersink bits I used on the flywheel holes. But none are the right size--too small or too large. The too-large one (which I used gently while chucked up in a hand drill) rubs on the outer rim of the flywheel so it can't go straight into the hole as it should. I will come up with a way to do a better job of it but for now I'm in get it built and make it run mode. Once it's working (chickens...hatched???) I'll clean and polish it all up.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 17, 2010)

Connecting rod done. Since I had enough brass, I went ahead and made a new one with the proper sized 2mm hole in the piston end. Need some touch up work still, I free-handed the radius on the ends:





My shop-made slitting-saw arbor (just the arbor--not the MT3 end-mill holder it's installed in):





Slitting-saw cutting the slot in the piston fork. First time I've used it--I think it's scarier than a fly-cutter--so I took it slow (and I didn't want to saw into my vise):





Piston fork done:





Piston-end put together:





I think the critical-pieces are done now. Bearing supports; stand-offs for everything; and a burner still to come. It's getting close...


----------



## NickG (Sep 19, 2010)

Nearly there Mike, looks spot on so far. I couldn't be bothered messing with the crank so just left mine as a disc - doesn't seem to have made any difference.

Nick


----------



## winklmj (Sep 19, 2010)

The small parts take longer than the big parts. Two parts plus drill and tap the crank-web took me about 6 hours today. It didn't help that I had to make the crank pin twice.  :wall:

Crank Pin. 10-32 outside thread, 4-40 inside. The whole thing is about 6mm long. I can barely see to work on it even with my magnifier glasses. I made the whole part then installed in on the crank. If I had to do it again, I'd make the 10-32 threaded end, install it, put the crankshaft in the 4-jaw, offset it, and turn down the rest of the crank pin there. Would be much easier to hang onto and would be better aligned with the crankshaft.






Crank Pin installed. I hope it's square enough because I don't look forward to making another:





Crank Pin screw. The macro setting on the camera works too well--you can see all the defects:





All of it put together. It's amazing how well that little bearing works:


----------



## winklmj (Sep 22, 2010)

Bearing support. Two pieces fly-cut to thickness then super-glued together. Rough layout then center-drilled for the bearing pocket:





One done--poorly. I hate boring on the mill compared to the lathe. Too many start/stop/measure/adjust. And it went from no fit to drops right in. There is no slop but it's not a good press fit I wanted. Either I'll put a couple dimples in the sidewall with a punch or a drop of loctite.










Flipped over, re-located the other hole with my co-ax and bored another bearing pocket--poorly. Drilled some decorative holes. The Mickey Mouse ears at the top will end up being small scallops at the top of the support. In my defense--these are the first two bearing pockets I've ever done on the mill.






More tomorrow.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 23, 2010)

Bearing supports done. Got a nasty scratch in one when I was roughing out the final shape on the bandsaw. And a minor catastrophe. I snapped the end off a center drill in the last mounting hole. Luckily it's a thru-hole so I was able to drill from the other side. 











Although these are made pretty much to plan width- and depth-wise, I still get some rubbing from the flywheel. I guess 1mm clearance is not enough for my not-so accurate machining. I'll need a few spacers between the flywheel hub and the bearings to compensate.


----------



## NickG (Sep 24, 2010)

They look very similar to mine! I didn't bother with the mounting lugs though, wanted to make it as simple as possible, then I decided it looked too plain and added decorative holes and scallops! I've learnt something from yours though, as I tried to just plunge with a slot drill to do the scallops and it always ended up moving, better idea to drill the hole and mill away like you did.

I had the same trouble with getting the good fit on the bearings, I used much smaller ones anyway but I don't have a boring head so I just used an end mill and plunged but it ended up too big, as you say a couple of centre pop marks to make it grab and a bit of loctite worked fine. Actually, I remember getting too much of a press fit on one of the bearings and it must have been enough to squeeze the bearing which prevented it from rotating so there's something to be said for a sliding fit.

On my crank pin I left quite a bit of play side to side and on the diameter to allow for out of squareness and glad I did - at the model engineering exhibition a chap brought over his engine which he'd made to a much better standard than mine but when I was helping him trouble shoot one of the things I pointed out was that his was actually too accurate, the good fit he'd produced actually caused a very slight amount of binding and it only takes the tiniest amount of excess friction to stop these things running. The other thing was on his valve, there is meant to be quite a big clearance between it and the pushrod, his was a nice fit but you need some slop in it!


Nice work, can't be far off now! :bow:

Nick


----------



## carkwi (Sep 24, 2010)

can i ask?
how much heavy of the flywheel?


----------



## carkwi (Sep 24, 2010)

help!!!
i wanna to know it.
how much heavy of the flywheel?


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 24, 2010)

Your bearing supports look good Mike, I wish I'd done them like that now! I wouldn't worry about the bearing fit too much, I don't believe it's too critical in the scheme of things. Where is the flywheel rubbing?

Vic.


----------



## NickG (Sep 24, 2010)

Forgot to mention that - I had the same problem with my cast flywheel, had to put some spacers in there too! :big:


----------



## winklmj (Sep 24, 2010)

Nick, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Sorry for copying your design--but there's only so many ways to make these things. :big: Doing it this way is easier than makeing shorter supports and then turning 4 legs for it. I think I'll make some sort of bracket instead of legs for the cyl too--just to be different.

Vic, If I set them up with the "side the bearing presses in from" towards the flywheel, I think they'll work but the clearance is minimal. The other way around the wheel rubs on the supports. But I kinda like the mechanical look with the bearings showing on the outside so I think I'll make up some tiny spacers.

Carkwi, don't know the weight. It's not to plan 'cause I didn't have the right size materials. And I'm not sure you'd want to copy a non-finished, non-running version anyway. Ask again after I get it running.


----------



## NickG (Sep 25, 2010)

No no, sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like that! You're right, that's the only thing I could really think of too, couldn't be bothered with making all the fancy turned columns and cut outs in the side etc. Also, there was more room for error that way! If you look at mine compared to Bogstandard's you can see mine are very similar to his too!

I liked the bearings showing also!

Doing great ... :bow:


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 25, 2010)

Nick,

Mine was made to see if it would run, so was only very basically built.

Sometime soon, it will be getting a complete facelift, and only the cylinders and other major bits will remain, everything else will be 'blinged up'.

I mentioned this the other day, as long as the major parts and positions are kept to plan, everything else can be whatever your imagination can come up with. 

That is what makes us all individuals, we all make the same engines, but none seem to look exactly like what has gone before.


John


----------



## winklmj (Sep 26, 2010)

Spacers. Made two 1mm thick and two 2mm thick spacers. What a pain. I don't know how guys work with stuff this small all the time.:





Cyl support almost done:





Cyl Support done. I copied the decorative holes from the flywheel supports:





The next project will be the base. Measuring everthing and laying out all the holes will take a while as I've drifted from the plans somewhat. The important stuff I tried to stick too as close as possible--the other's, not so much. I'll lay it out in DeltaCad, my used-bookstore find of a 2-D cad program that cost all of $8.00 about 10 years ago. It still works!


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 26, 2010)

Thats looking really nice Mike, I love the cylinder support!

Vic.


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Sep 26, 2010)

That is sharp looking. Beautiful and elegant.


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 26, 2010)

Just one thing Mike,

You baseplate is going to get hot real quick. Even using the normal thin standards for the cylinder, after ten minutes running, the baseplate is too hot to hold.

If you have trouble getting the engine to start, the first thing would be to reduce the contact areas. I found the engine has to be fairly hot to even start to pop.


Bogs


----------



## winklmj (Sep 26, 2010)

Worked on the base today. DeltaCad to the rescue. I took it all apart and spent 1.5 hours with my mic and caliper measuring and laying out for SIX freekin' holes. But they have to be close to perfect to line up everything and cut down on friction. This is the result:






I printed it out to scale and lined up the parts just to make sure:
















Time for the base itself. 6" x 3-1/4"--roughly. Stock was too long for my 4x6 bandsaw so a little enjunearing was needed:






Squaring everything up. Saw this trick of using 1-2-3 blocks to support parts too big for the vise:






Flycut, dykem, scribed, then drilling:






Polished the base with some wet-dry on the surface-plate. The mirror finish looks better on film than up close. There are still lots of scratches--some from my heavy-handed scribing.
















Looks good don't it?

I need to make a burner. Nothing handy--I scrounged everywhere around the house. It's almost done. I couldn't resist--I had to try something. So I got one of my wife's alcohol room-freshener lamps. It's the size of a grapefruit and way too unwieldy to get the flame close enough. BUT...it did show signs of life once. I was stoked...And now it smells nice too. 





Then while talking to my brother on the phone--he suggested a butane lighter--like for starting 
up the fireplace. Well, I just happened to have one handy...AND GUESS WHAT? It's a RUNNER!!! 

Absolutely amazing. I cannot be happier. Click below for video:







SAAAAA-WEEEEEETTTTT! It's gonna be so much better with a real burner and some polishing here and there!


----------



## doc1955 (Sep 26, 2010)

It is a good feeling isn't it.
I do like the flywheel you have done it is a looker!
Good job!


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 27, 2010)

Very nice job Mike, runs really good! Thm: 

Vic.


----------



## krv3000 (Sep 27, 2010)

HI brill work  from bob


----------



## NickG (Sep 27, 2010)

Massive well done, it's got it's own look and runs first time, no messing! Coming from someone that's spent days messing around trying to get it to run - yours deserves respect :bow:

Nick


----------



## winklmj (Sep 28, 2010)

Many thanks for the encouragment and kind words.

I played with it some more last nite and could not get it to run for more than a few seconds 

I still do not have a proper burner for it and ran out of butane on one lighter. The other lighter I tried puts out way more soot. I've cleaned it multiple times (and it does get a slight film on it) but even cleaned up it still refuses to run. It can't be wore out already! I have some alcohol (labeled as clean burning and intended for lamps and stoves) and a tiki-torch wick (too big I think). It puts out a large yellow flame whereas the butane lighter was more a blue color--if that makes a difference.

Perhaps I should not get discouraged until I try it with a good burner and that task starts this evening with a hunt for something to make one with.


----------



## NickG (Sep 28, 2010)

I was just going to say it's probably become gummed up but then read on ... It's worth a try with some industrial meths and a good burner (decent sized wick as Jan Ridders suggests) - some people use glass fibre wicks that don't burn and produce sut. 

Another bone of contention is that I and a few people use oil (I use car engine oil), it takes longer to warm up (about 10 mins) but I find the contaminants are pushed out in the oil and it provides a better seal for my not so good machining! Some peoples are probably made to a higher standard, finer tolerances on the piston and valve which mean oil anywhere near it causes too much friction in the system, Engine oil gives very low friction once up to temperature though. Just a thought if you're still struggling. I'm actually thinking of putting an oil cup at each end of the cylinder on mine, like 'poppin' but 1 for the valve and 1 for piston as it causes a bit of a mess.

I just soft soldered an end in a bit of tube for my burner - it doesn't get hot, with a push fit cap for the top, simple but effective, the way I like it!

Nick


----------



## fcheslop (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi,I don't know what others use but my engines require different lubes on the engine you have built I use a synthetic two stroke oil but this will not work on poppin this needs a fine sewing machine oil and the Duclos engine will only run with a dry lube such as graphite you'd think they would all be the same ?On all engines as already mentioned the flame position is critical you'll probably find it runs OK when you get the burner finished
best wishes Frazer


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 28, 2010)

I found the same results when I built mine.

With a gas burner like that, it produces a lot of crap that solidifies in the bore. Mine at one point totally locked up, and a good clean out with meths was the only cure.

Unlike Nick, I couldn't get mine to accept lube, it just gummed everything up.

Sometime in the future, mine will be blinged up and converted to run on gas, but one with a clean burning flame.


Bogs


----------



## Deanofid (Sep 28, 2010)

It looks great, Mike! Another nice runner, too. 
I wish I could keep up with more build projects! I kind of skipped between yours and Vic's. 
Too many good builds to keep track!

When you make your burner, get the proper fuel for it. Go to a hardware store paint dept. and get 
denatured alcohol. It does not make soot. Any other alcohol that contains water will make soot.
Ace Hardware has the _proper_ stuff.

Congrats on your fine looking runner!

Dean


----------



## winklmj (Sep 28, 2010)

Got parts for a burner today and made some progress on getting it running again. I cleaned it with oven-cleaner--it did a much better job than trying to clean it with brake-cleaner or alcohol as I was using before. While hunting for burner parts I also grabbed a 3-pack of butane lighters. I got it running for about 2-min straight with them. Then I tried using a wick soaked with some denatured alcohol. This produces a much yellower flame than the lighters and it had gummed up within seconds with a yellow/brown sticky residue. Either I got some [email protected] alcohol from Lowe's or it's the wick doing it. I will try Ace hardware--I know they have wicks there as well.


----------



## kustomkb (Sep 28, 2010)

Congratulations on your first run! Looks and sounds great.

I've got a flame licker that was pretty stubborn at first. I ran it in, squirting powdered graphite in through the valve several times. It runs well now without maintenance. I burn methyl hydrate.


----------



## winklmj (Sep 30, 2010)

I made a burner today. That was an adventure in itself. My torch blew out 8-10 times so it took forever to heat up. I tried some 45% silv-solder but my torch would not get it hot enough so I used some plumbing solder. I got it done but it looks hideous and will take lots of clean up. No matter, at this point all I wanted was to get this thing running again. 

Stone cold with the burner fired up it took right off and then stopped after a few seconds and could not get it going again. It shows signs of life but I can tell that it's getting gummed up--not much but enough I think to kill it. I tried a drop or two of 20wt synthetic oil just for grins. I had to really warm it up and again it showed signs of life but I think it's way too much friction.

So, what to try next? Is it getting gummed up because the piston-cyl tolerance is too tight where it's affected too easily by residue? Or is it too loose letting the residue get between the piston and cyl wall? As much as it's been spun I can tell that it's loosened up some so I think mabe the later. I will try some graphite powder I guess and I have enough cast iron for making valve and piston again too. 

What is really confusing is why it runs OK off a simple butane lighter? I thought for sure that if it ran off that a real burner would make it scream.  :wall:


----------



## NickG (Oct 1, 2010)

It's strange you mention that, when I cleaned mine out completely and used the industrial DNA (clear not purple) it went like stink for about a minute, from cold then stopped - gummed up even with the good stuff, which is when I started using oil, but pretty thin synthetic stuff, 0W30 or something if you can get it. Mine needs to be left with the burner on for about 10 minutes before it will run consistently now, I know other peoples that will not run from cold either, for speed Bogstandard sometimes just gives his a dose of heat with the blow torch to warm it up.

Nick


----------



## Omnimill (Oct 1, 2010)

It's important that you don't get moisture around the flame port when you start it up, so heating it first is a good idea. If you don't want to wait for the spirit lamp to heat it then use a hot air gun. Another tip is to put a small amount of graphite (from a soft pencil) into the bore after cleaning.

Vic.


----------



## winklmj (Oct 1, 2010)

SUCCESS!

I took a close look at Vic's vid and noticed his burner tube was really close to the flame port. I stuck a small (temporary) spacer under my burner to raise it up and shortened my wick some. I also gave it a few puffs of powdered graphite (in the Key section of the HW store for lubing locks). It took off and will pretty much run until the burner is empty. Don't know if it was the graphite or not (can't hurt) but I think moving the flame was key. And I think this one could be called a Flame Thrower as much as it moves the flame around. 

Take a look (ignoring the ratty looking flux-covered burner with tin-foil cap):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK0kAWlhjeg[/ame]


----------



## Deanofid (Oct 2, 2010)

Sweet indeed, Mike!  Thm: Thm:
They all seem to have their own special spot for the flame. You found it, and
have a runner on your hands. Good going!

Dean


----------



## NickG (Oct 2, 2010)

Well done Mike :bow:


----------



## Blogwitch (Oct 2, 2010)

Very nice runner indeed.

It was that 'flash out' of the large angled burner which stopped me from putting two cylinders side by side, it deformed the opposite flame so much, it sometimes blew it out.

I eventually made small vertical tube burners, from a remote tank, that could be locked permanently in position. It allows a much smaller and more accurate flame to be used, outside as well, in windy conditions. I told Jan about what I had found, and that is now what Jan uses on his latest designs.


Bogs


----------

