# a samll rortary table by g.h. thomas



## dethrow55 (Jan 13, 2020)

hello for all that maybe interested . i have been making a lotta my own tools for my lathe and mill sometimes difficult to find what i want. but thru much research and reading i find what i need. so for any one interested here is a small rotary table.by one of the greats.


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## awake (Jan 13, 2020)

Given the extended discussion in another thread, I have to ask ... copyright?


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## dethrow55 (Jan 13, 2020)

hello i dont think so because i found this on another web site model engine maker. no copyright issues there ? if there is remove it. james


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## Cogsy (Jan 14, 2020)

It appears this material is from a UK magazine published in 1976. UK copyright law is very different to US law and it appears a magazine is only protected for 25 years from the end of the year of publication. So it appears copyright for this material expired in 2002. Weirdly, if this material had come from a single author source (like a book) instead, copyright would be 70 years from the end of the year of the original authors' death. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer when even simple things like this can get so screwy.


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## Charles Lamont (Jan 14, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> ... it appears a magazine is only protected for 25 years from the end of the year of publication...


Where does it appear? I think you will most likely find this material is still copyright, but IANAL.

dethrow55, the fact that you copied it from a site that had (very probably) broken the copyright does not excuse you from the orginal copyright.

BTW, I have made one of these, and it is a very useful little tool.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 14, 2020)

Actually my old mate and I were discussing GHT today as we both have made 'lots' of tools which George published in Model Engineer and then Dr W.A. (Bill) Bennett BDS( Dunelmn) included when he published GHT's many articles- initially in Model Engineers Workshop and latr embodies GHT's own  books Dividing and Graduating and the Universal Pillar Tool.
As far as copyright bis concerned, it is on the further publishing of the words and music and not making ONE for one's own use.

I think that it would clear a mass of confusion- from people who cannot be minded to spend £30 or so but GHT's words are clear enough in the Appendix C- Pattern Drawings in 'Workshop Techniques' that- and legally I've copyright, too that GHT  did not publish ¨ntil he was satisfied that castings were available but goes on - somewhat quixotically that he published detailed drawings for some castings for 'those  people living in parts of the world  far from us'
 There is an interesting slant in this because GHT had worked in the USA but had travelled to see Jack A Radford in New Zealand- and came back with Radford's drawings for the Myford Headstock Dividing Head- which he altered and published.

Perhaps, I'm complicating things unduly but Radford also published a book on Improvements and Alterations to the Lathe- which was A Myford Super 7B which has been heavily modified to behave like a Murad Bormilathe.  A Multi purchase machine!
Today, my good friend Frazer Heslop and I were swopping experiences on whether I should buy a reconditioned Super 7 to replace my very aged one but I had got quite broody- like an old 'chuck' because I had found multi function machine tool/lathe called a Scope which is mentioned in lathes.co.uk but I  doubt that there will another person on this site who will have the first clue about the machine.

Any clearer?  All THREE books are in print- if you doubt me

Norm


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## Cogsy (Jan 15, 2020)

Charles Lamont said:


> Where does it appear? I think you will most likely find this material is still copyright, but IANAL.



I'm also, very much not a lawyer, but from what I've read everywhere from Wikipedia to copyrightaid.co.uk basically says the same thing. From copyrightaid.co.uk : "_in the UK, copyright in the actual typographical layout of the published editions only last for 25 years from the end of the year in which it was published. In other words reproducing the magazines by scanning them would not pose any problem" . _Now I have interpreted this, quite possibly incorrectly, that this means the article in question is OK as regards copyright, but I definitely don't know for sure. I think this is how Google reproduces some magazines seemingly without regard to individual authors' copyrights. I'm certain that if this were being republished then the original authors' copyright would kick in, but simply sharing the out-of-copyright magazine MAY be ok. But obviously - my opinion is personal and does not constitute legal advice!


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## necchiom (Jan 15, 2020)

I am going to finish a modified version of it: https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/yet-an-other-rotary-table-direct-turning.31830/
Drawings in mm also available.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

hello it is from a magizine dated 1976. but also noticed hemingway kits sells these drawings and also guy laytard . so im wondering if someone bought the copyrights ? to late now haw.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 15, 2020)

dethrow55 said:


> hello it is from a magizine dated 1976. but also noticed hemingway kits sells these drawings and also guy laytard . so im wondering if someone bought the copyrights ? to late now haw.




The original  designer was George H Thomas   but if you had bought the book, you would have been left in no doubt  of the position of Kirk Burswell of Hemingwaykits in this matter. I am 100% positive of his  rights in the matter.

It would seem that your are unaware of the source of the  1976  drawings in your possession.
The owners of this site should be aware of the possibility of breach of copyright  and it is their discretion of how they they deal with your posting.


Norman


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

it seems it would be a good idea to remove it.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

for anyone that wants to know where this came from : hobby machinist posted by "Restorer" jan.23.2015 . this whole thing has made me more cautious about coping drawings from any web site .


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## sniffipn (Jan 15, 2020)

Perhaps, I'm complicating things unduly but Radford also published a book on Improvements and Alterations to the Lathe- which was A Myford Super 7B which has been heavily modified to behave like a Murad Bormilathe.  A Multi purchase machine!
Today, my good friend Frazer Heslop and I were swopping experiences on whether I should buy a reconditioned Super 7 to replace my very aged one but I had got quite broody- like an old 'chuck' because I had found multi function machine tool/lathe called a Scope which is mentioned in lathes.co.uk but I  doubt that there will another person on this site who will have the first clue about the machine.

Any clearer?  All THREE books are in print- if you doubt me

Norm[/QUOTE]

didn't 'triona' sell one recently


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

that interesting but what does that have to do with this post?


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## Cogsy (Jan 15, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> The original  designer was George H Thomas   but if you had bought the book, you would have been left in no doubt  of the position of Kirk Burswell of Hemingwaykits in this matter. I am 100% positive of his  rights in the matter.



George H Thomas did design this and the original copyright on these plans is (probably) still intact and seems like it currently resides with a third party. This is correct (as far as I know).



goldstar31 said:


> It would seem that your are unaware of the source of the  1976  drawings in your possession.



Norman, it would seem that it is you that is confused about the source of these exact plans.The images above are from a 1976, UK published magazine. The copyright owner of these plans, way back in 1976, allowed the publication of these plans in this magazine (possibly for reward, I have no way of knowing). Regardless, the copyright holder in 1976 allowed publication having known, or at least should have known, that under UK law copyright of the typographical layout of the magazine would expire in 25 years and the material published within could then be legally copied. If someone were to be making copies of the plan set from Hemingway Kits then they would (quite possibly) be breaching copyright but copying a magazine from over 25 years ago is legal under UK law.

Not being a lawyer, I have no idea how much this affects the copyright of the original plans as there would seem to be an argument for the plans now existing in the 'public domain'.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

thank you cogsy. i just dont wanna violate anyones ownership. and now i know to be more cautious about down loading plans on other forums without questioning ownership. thanks james


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## goldstar31 (Jan 15, 2020)

I agree it is difficult to determine the legality of things. However, and you must forgive me for old age and a raft of problems but the story is really contained in the two GHT books.
 Actually the major problem( to me) stems from the original failure of the company and the subsequent take over/buy out by Magicalia. Up to the then it was simply a few writers getting perhaps a small handout for their contribution or many like myself- doing it for the joy of the hobby.  During the interval, many contributors were concerned with the failure of not only the company but the loss of information. It would seem that the late Jim Early had permission to copy and put it onto the 'net-- and perhaps CD's for little more than the cost of materials.  The new takeover firm threatened legal action  and the now offending stuff was removed.
As I said, I was sort of involved and the then an editor of Model Engineer or Model Engineers Workshop wrote to me and perhaps others seeking help to find the contributors/ copyright holders. In other words, I assumed that at that time, despite the solicitors' threats they were lost. I'd been in contact with one author who had gone as far as producing a small bool on his Unimat(s).  He was ex RAF like me, and we both had unimats then.
He died, I had his book and had he lived he would have been almost 90!
Again, I tried to trace 'Martin Cleeve' or correctly,, I had a copy of his patent application and knew of his death but finally gave up as hopeless. My wife's father was dead and my mother in law was under the Court of Protection- and my wife was ill and there were three houses as part of the estate without - a valid will and the solicitors were also 'in administration'

George Thomas's affairs were far simpler. Some of this comes from Dr W A Bennett who was my wife;s classmate at UNI and the rest from GHT's books.
GHT had published his two appendices to what was going to be his major work.  He became( like most of us) ill and incapable( I'm under Enduring Powers of Attorney). However when he did die , all of his contributions to Model Engineer and his photographs were available. It seems that Neil Shackleton Hemmingway, the first proprietor of Hemmingwaykits had power to both sell GHT's workshop and to do what GHT intended that is to write his book. Bill Bennett took on the task helped by many friends and all his previous articles in Model Engineer were embodied i the two books. Before my wife's death, Bill turned up for the 50th Anniversary of Christine's attendance at Newcastle Dental School graduation onPalace Green, Durham.  At the dinner, Bill told me that the royalties from the two books were still coming in.  He was a retired dentist and principal of his own firm and the whole issue was 'Peanuts'. He was doing it as many others had done as a Labour of Love.
Neil Hemingway has also died and Kirk Burswell has the business now. I spoke to Kirk about the Whereabouts of Bill and like me, he has no idea. 
As I have said, I'm slowly getting rd of my workshop. I sold two lathes which included a ML10 book a few days ago.  Most of my books, records and whatever had to be pulped following the loss of my workshop roof around the time that my wife was dying and quite frankly what was contained or lost or destroyed was literally of no consequence.  Most of what I had on my computer then was scrapped as I have  been twice 'robbed'' and the theft of my bank details  is still in the hands yet again with my bank and the police.

So that is my account of things as of this morning------ however I understand that Copyright Law in England is for a vast more number of years and equally important, the foregoing information is also 'Copyright' for another 100 years.

However, I hope that it is of some assistance to you. my thoughts- and they are my thoughts are that these Model Engineer's write up are embodied almost word for word in GHT's Model Engineer's Workshop Manual- under copyright as explained above.

Regards 

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Jan 15, 2020)

dethrow55 said:


> thank you cogsy. i just dont wanna violate anyones ownership. and now i know to be more cautious about down loading plans on other forums without questioning ownership. thanks james



James
My sincerest apologies for such a long winded account but as you have spent such a long time to make part of the RT, you might be wise to buy GHT's book to 'finish off'.  It may or may not be legal but it would show the degree of responsibility which you have willingly accepted and done your best to rectify
Best Wishes
Norman


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## dethrow55 (Jan 15, 2020)

thank you norm very well put. let the chips fall were they may, and any corrections understood.  i made a mistake by down loading this article and posting it here done.time to end this topic, thanks james


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## dethrow55 (Jan 16, 2020)

hello all i would like to apoligize to all that i may have offened or violated there rights.what i did was wrong! i cant change what i did.but i can ask for forgiveness.


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## awake (Jan 16, 2020)

My apologies for starting us down this road with the question - I wasn't trying to critique nor to stir up any controversy, but was genuinely curious. From what I have gleaned above, it sounds like you may not have violated any rights - based on the issue (no pun intended) with UK magazine copyrights that Cogsy describes.

Actually, I suspect that this discussion has clearly revealed that when it comes to copyright, as with so many other things, the exact answer is, "it depends." If something is published in two different venues - a magazine and a book - where exactly does the copyright reside? And is there a difference between the typography and the IP?

I have a friend who went to law school a few years ago, and I remember asking him if something (don't remember what) was legal. He quickly answered, "No one knows - it hasn't been litigated yet. Would you like to be the first?" It may be that the answers to the questions we have raised above fall into this same category!


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## Charles Lamont (Jan 16, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> I'm also, very much not a lawyer, but from what I've read everywhere from Wikipedia to copyrightaid.co.uk basically says the same thing. From copyrightaid.co.uk : "_in the UK, copyright in the actual typographical layout of the published editions only last for 25 years from the end of the year in which it was published. In other words reproducing the magazines by scanning them would not pose any problem" . _Now I have interpreted this, quite possibly incorrectly, that this means the article in question is OK as regards copyright, but I definitely don't know for sure.


I am pretty sure it does not. Typographical arrangement is not related to the content. It does not even mean how the content is set out on a particular page, the fonts used, etc. It refers to the 'look and feel' or 'house style'of the whole publication, but not to the actual content. The look of The Sun is as different from the look of  The Guardian as their respective take on the world is, and that look is copyrightable. The words, drawings and photos, are still quite separately copyright as a literary work for 70 years after the death of the owner of the copyright in that content. Tell me I'm wrong (I won't mind).
https://www.digitisingmorgan.org/uploads/BN2-typographical arrangement_DigiMorgan.pdf

dethrow55, please stop apologising.


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## Cogsy (Jan 16, 2020)

Charles Lamont said:


> I am pretty sure it does not. Typographical arrangement is not related to the content. It does not even mean how the content is set out on a particular page, the fonts used, etc. It refers to the 'look and feel' or 'house style'of the whole publication, but not to the actual content. The look of The Sun is as different from the look of  The Guardian as their respective take on the world is, and that look is copyrightable. The words, drawings and photos, are still quite separately copyright as a literary work for 70 years after the death of the owner of the copyright in that content. Tell me I'm wrong (I won't mind).
> https://www.digitisingmorgan.org/uploads/BN2-typographical arrangement_DigiMorgan.pdf
> 
> dethrow55, please stop apologising.



I can't tell you you're wrong, in fact I'm even more confused now after looking at that link. It repeatedly mentions enduring copyright on the original works (I assume in regards to republishing) but seems to be all about whether copying and distributing complete articles from newspaper or magazine breaches the typographical copyright or not. The way I read it, that seems to be the point of contention and suggests that if the topographical copyright is not being breached then it's alright to do so. I wish they'd just adopted the USA standard with a blanket magazine protection of 95 years!

To further confuse matters, they give an example of a book published in 2010 with typographical copyright expiring in 2035, then a subsequent reprint in 2015. Now if that 2015 reprint is substantially the same layout as the 2010 (so just a repressing) then the typographical copyright for the 2015 version does not extend from the original and still expires in 2035, but if it's been reworked with a new layout (even though it's exactly the same text), the 2015 version will have a typographical copyright until 2040. Now what are we to make of this? What is it that we can do with the 2010 version after 2035 that we cannot do with the 2015 edition until after 2040? Now as a book the literary content is protected for 70 years after the death of author so I have no idea. All I can rely on is some very clear advice from many other sources that copying UK magazines over 25 years old is legal, but they could certainly be wrong, or mistaken, or possibly it hasn't been litigated yet so it's untested.


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## Charles Lamont (Jan 17, 2020)

As I understand it, cover for literary content is the same 70 years after death, wherever it is published, and this has nothing whatever to do with the cover for the typographical arrangement. I think this is where your confusion lies. It would seem that there are two quite independent types of copyright covering a magazine. Can you point me to the very clear advice?


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## Cogsy (Jan 17, 2020)

Charles Lamont said:


> As I understand it, cover for literary content is the same 70 years after death, wherever it is published, and this has nothing whatever to do with the cover for the typographical arrangement. I think this is where your confusion lies. It would seem that there are two quite independent types of copyright covering a magazine. Can you point me to the very clear advice?



Have a look at the response to the question at THIS LINK, which seems (to me) to say copying is no problem but republishing is.


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## Charles Lamont (Jan 18, 2020)

Oh I see, you are talking about fair use copying. I don't think your link helps much there; try this:
https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/fair-use-copyright-explained
There is no time limit on fair use, you can do that immediately after publication, but I think it is most unlikely that it would allow republishing an article by posting it here, which is where we started.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 18, 2020)

HMEM is a forum for the learning and handing down of model engineering from tooling to design and build of model enginees, to copy and sell for profit is wrong. G,H. Thomas was an educator and a master.And so is Kirk Burwell (hemingway kits) just my thoughts james


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## goldstar31 (Jan 18, 2020)

Actually GHT was respected by Myford as 'The Guru'. Most of us of the old brigade  have bought his books- which are reasonably inexpensive and we continue to read something that we missed earlier.

Burswell- perhaps to complicate matters, set off to re-write or bring into the 21st Century, Professor D.H.Chaddock's  Quorn tool and cutter grinder and has gone on to produce a complete- but expensive kit for what is known as the Mark3.

Now I have a Mk1 but bought the new paperwork with a view to up rating my old mangle. Then, would you believe obtained a more or less complete set of Chaddock's castings.  Of course,  I bought  the issues on the construction of the mark1 in Model Engineer and the 'new' ones for the Mark3.  i wrote this because both sets of castings etc have far more complicated rotary tables- which  also tilt.
James, Best wishes

Norman


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## dethrow55 (Jan 18, 2020)

hello Norman thanks for the imformation. in one of your earlier messages you mentioned unimat. well about then years ago i bought a unimat and that started my interest in model engine building and machining. now i have a taig lathe and taig mill ,also still have the unimat db sl... years back my hobby was rebuilding triumph motorcycles getting to old for the heavy work ..the unimat im restoring and painting . will soon post some pictures of my machines. Ive made some tools for all my machines, done a lotta research and studying .havent built an engine yet, started on a nelson 2cc diesel ,but had to stop till it warms up some to finish build. i have learned a lot from this forum and there is a world of talent here. well anyway getting long winded . regards james


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## Cogsy (Jan 18, 2020)

Charles Lamont said:


> Oh I see, you are talking about fair use copying. I don't think your link helps much there; try this:
> https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/fair-use-copyright-explained
> There is no time limit on fair use, you can do that immediately after publication, but I think it is most unlikely that it would allow republishing an article by posting it here, which is where we started.



I don't _think_ my link was in regards to 'fair use' being that they were asking about distributing/selling digitised copies. Really though, this would be a discussion for actual lawyers to have for inordinate sums of money. The intricacies of the legal language and interpretations based on precedents is not something I have experience in. As laymen, all we can do is try to abide by our best understanding of the law and act in good faith until we get told otherwise I guess.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 19, 2020)

I think that there is no problem  with someone buying  a set of plans legally and making one item from them but this a matter where an unauthorised person/persons has given the world the opportunity to make use of someone's intellectual property free.

GHT in this matter- and I am repeating myself- made provisions for a single person to make castings etc - on the other side of the world.

It is worth the small outlay to read into GHT's intentions- and humm- safeguard our poster from possible trouble.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 19, 2020)

is it possible to remove the post to stop further spread ?


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## xpylonracer (Jan 20, 2020)

I don't think GHT would be too concerned, he would be pleased to see model engineers still using his 50+ year old plans to build workshop equipment. Many versions of his designs are copied by various people without giving credit to the GHT original design, I guess this will never change.

xpylonracer


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## delalio (Jan 20, 2020)

Ok, while you gents are discussing copyright, is there any chance OP could provide slightly clearer scans/photos etc. Some of them are quite hard to read.
I was planning on buying one of these at the model show in London last weekend, but decided against it for funding reasons.
Feel free to PM them to me.
And re copyright, I'll only be using them to build myself the rotary table, not for resale / commercial use.

Thanks OP,

D


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## goldstar31 (Jan 20, 2020)

delalio said:


> Ok, while you gents are discussing copyright, is there any chance OP could provide slightly clearer scans/photos etc. Some of them are quite hard to read.
> I was planning on buying one of these at the model show in London last weekend, but decided against it for funding reasons.
> Feel free to PM them to me.
> And re copyright, I'll only be using them to build myself the rotary table, not for resale / commercial use.
> ...



12 quid or so to get into the show and 27 for the book?
I'm an old age pensioner/widower  living in Newcastle upon Tyne and 4 years ago ,I bought my 2nd copy at 'Ally Pally' and the fare was £20 for the taxi to NCL Station and over £100 for the Disable Pensioners Rail Fare- plus entrance and indifferent food. 

For Xpylonracer, I tried with Jim Early to put Martin Cleeve's stuff on the 'int for free and ran into litigation threats  with  Magicalia, the then new owners of Model Engineers etc.

I thought that model engineers deserved it then - and regretted it ever since.

Then I told people how to get the info.  I'm now getting pedantic as was GHT then


Norman


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## Wizard69 (Jan 20, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> It appears this material is from a UK magazine published in 1976. UK copyright law is very different to US law and it appears a magazine is only protected for 25 years from the end of the year of publication. So it appears copyright for this material expired in 2002. Weirdly, if this material had come from a single author source (like a book) instead, copyright would be 70 years from the end of the year of the original authors' death. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer when even simple things like this can get so screwy.


That nonsense about 70 years after the authors death is one of the more stupid things that cam from Europe as it was never that long in the USA.    I can understand protecting the original author for a specific number of years and while he is alive but 70 years after his death makes no sense at all.


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## Cogsy (Jan 20, 2020)

Wizard69 said:


> That nonsense about 70 years after the authors death is one of the more stupid things that cam from Europe as it was never that long in the USA.    I can understand protecting the original author for a specific number of years and while he is alive but 70 years after his death makes no sense at all.



The US copyright act of 1976 is when the "70 years after death" was introduced, along with the "95 years after publication" (for works for hire). I didn't think European law was influencing US legislation much that recently was it?


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## littlelocos (Jan 21, 2020)

Sounds like we've flushed out the fact that the project is currently owned by a third party.  Therefore it's time for the admin or poster to take down the items to help prevent the spread.
I for one am glad to see that HMEM is a group that cares about this topic.
Thank you,
Todd.


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## dethrow55 (Jan 21, 2020)

hello i agree ive ask for it to be taken down ? to stop the spread.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 25, 2020)

James
               I have to apologise for a tardy reply to 'all of this' as for several days  i have been happily involved in things which have been somewhat clouded with bottles of Famous Grouse and a surfeit of genuine bonhomie!
So yesterday morning, the news broke that  the UK and the EEC or whatever they call it are yet again at loggerheads over copyright.  It's Brexit time and rather more important than making a little rotary table.
The odd question that needs an answer is- will it actually fit one a Taig because it certainly will not for a Unimat SL? GHT designed the thing to fit a Myford 7 Series which is probably rather larger than 'what you have'
One design that will fit the little 'Uni'  is covered- as far as I know- by yet again a copyright.  The guy would have been the ripe old age of about 90- like me but 'he's ded and  gawn' long ago.
So back to the fumes but it is all for one charity or another. 

Good Luck


Norman


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## minh-thanh (Jan 25, 2020)

Hi All !
I don't know if I should say this, but
 It's just a drawing board of a tool, and if someone has a machine and experience ... they can design and do it themselves, I want to make one and of course it has to fit the way  I do and the way I want
We are here for our own passion and it is not necessary to argue to the end about whether this drawing board is the right board or not.
If we are not sure about the copyright, simply delete this post.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 25, 2020)

minh-thanh said:


> Hi All !
> I don't know if I should say this, but
> It's just a drawing board of a tool, and if someone has a machine and experience ... they can design and do it themselves, I want to make one and of course it has to fit the way  I do and the way I want
> We are here for our own passion and it is not necessary to argue to the end about whether this drawing board is the right board or not.
> If we are not sure about the copyright, simply delete this post.



I agree and what is more inform you that it is not a true rotary table but a plate with a peg allowing it to rotate to its stops. It was only calibrated- for the magazine and then the book!
What should be uppermost is what we were told when we 'did' Constitutional law both English and American-
Commercial Law, Criminal Law. We you need to do 'Case Law' as we, Brits have an unwritten constitution.
The Law may be an ass but it is THE LAW!


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## ozzie46 (Jan 25, 2020)

Point has been made several times. Beating a dead horse here. Time to lock this thread and move on.

Ron


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## xpylonracer (Jan 25, 2020)

If anybody wants a rotary table to use on an Emco SL then join the iO Unimat Group and check in the Files folder, there were plans for such a table last time I was there.

xpylonracer


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## goldstar31 (Jan 25, 2020)

xpylonracer said:


> If anybody wants a rotary table to use on an Emco SL then join the iO Unimat Group and check in the Files folder, there were plans for such a table last time I was there.
> 
> xpylonracer



it's also copyright--- Rex Tingey!


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## Cogsy (Jan 26, 2020)

This topic has been argued to death and I doubt we can settle anything without lawyers and a courtroom so it's time to end it.


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