# brazing steel with bronze question



## werowance (Feb 2, 2015)

the other day I wanted a large cap nut and wanted it in copper, brass or bronze.  not having the necessary tap to cut the threads I decided to take a coupler nut and turn the outside down just a bit and then bronze braze the outside of it.  I have no problem sticking 2 pieces of steel together with bronze braze - usually just weld it though,  however in this case I need a good thick coat of bronze around it.  for the life of me I could not get a thick covering of the nut with bronze as the excess would just drip or flow off the nut.  it would have been good if I were just trying to do a repair or stick 2 pieces together but not for the idea I had.  

is there a trick to doing a thick layer of bronze on something?  or is that pretty much just the way it is.

ended up just buying the tap the next day but I think it would be usefull to be able to build up a part with bronze then machine it back down.


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## bobsymack (Feb 2, 2015)

You need to put it on bit by bit,put on some braze let it cool and then put on some more other wise the piece gets too hot and it runs .
hope this is of help .
Vince


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## Nick Hulme (Feb 18, 2015)

You can do that easily with bronze wire and argon gas using a MIG ;-)


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## werowance (Feb 19, 2015)

Nick Hulme said:


> You can do that easily with bronze wire and argon gas using a MIG ;-)


 
are you pulling my leg,  they have bronze wire for a mig?  I already have a mig and argon that I use for aluminum,  never heard of bronze welding wire.  if so I gotta get some because that would be perfect.


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## newdirection (Feb 19, 2015)

What about silver solder ? I don't know if it would be strong enough for your application, and it is pricey $.


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## werowance (Feb 19, 2015)

newdirection said:


> What about silver solder ? I don't know if it would be strong enough for your application, and it is pricey $.


 
well, actually don't need it for that project now as I just bought the tap I needed and tapped the threads in brass.  but I can see the usefulness of coating say a nut or part in bronze and cut it down to have a bronze wear surface.   but on the same note,  silver solder is also hard to "build up" in thickness for me as well.  

sort of was looking at 1/4 inch thick or more for what I was going to do.


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## Cogsy (Feb 19, 2015)

werowance said:


> they have bronze wire for a mig?


 
Several different copper based mig wires are available, including some silicon-bronze, for welding copper alloys to themselves and to steel. Handy stuff by the sounds of it. (I had no idea it was available either, I just Googled it cos I was curious )


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## newdirection (Feb 19, 2015)

I didn't get the jest of what you were trying to do, that's what happens when you don't read the post well. The silicon- bronze wire sounds great. I have seen it used in Tig welding, the mig wire is new to me also.
Thanks


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## goldstar31 (Feb 19, 2015)

werowance said:


> are you pulling my leg,  they have bronze wire for a mig?  I already have a mig and argon that I use for aluminum,  never heard of bronze welding wire.  if so I gotta get some because that would be perfect.



About 30 years ago, I was doing a City and Guilds in Motor Vehicle Restoration after my retirement and used it then on my own Mig/Mag welder. It was being pushed for sale in restoring well rusted car bodies. Frankly, it was expensive, was too soft and deformed on the rollers in my own Mig and and consequently caused jams. I finished up using it with my Oxy/Acetylene set for fairly fine work.

That was a long time ago, and things might have changed since. Perhaps I was more of 'bottle set guy' and was set in my ways- even then.

As a suggestion, a spot welding attachment on a mig is an ideal and cheap  way of building up wear or to improve fit.


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## Nick Hulme (Feb 19, 2015)

I keep bronze, copper, stainless, aluminium and mild steel wires in stock, with Argon and CO2 this allows some fairly unbelievable welds to be accomplished. 
I was a Vauxhall dealership panel beater when MIG Brazing was introduced, it's specific purpose was to replace the (already outlawed for production and soon to be outlawed for repairs) process of tinning & leading roof to body-side panel joints to produce a corrosion resistant joint, especially important where these went into the windscreen mounting apertures. 
I also worked in classic car restoration and can confirm that there is no good way to deal with corroded metalwork other than cutting it out and replacing it with new steel, it's actually easier and quicker than "Welding to lace" and also makes for a lasting repair,  

 - Nick


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## gus (Feb 20, 2015)

Nick Hulme said:


> I keep bronze, copper, stainless, aluminium and mild steel wires in stock, with Argon and CO2 this allows some fairly unbelievable welds to be accomplished.
> I was a Vauxhall dealership panel beater when MIG Brazing was introduced, it's specific purpose was to replace the (already outlawed for production and soon to be outlawed for repairs) process of tinning & leading roof to body-side panel joints to produce a corrosion resistant joint, especially important where these went into the windscreen mounting apertures.
> I also worked in classic car restoration and can confirm that there is no good way to deal with corroded metalwork other than cutting it out and replacing it with new steel, it's actually easier and quicker than "Welding to lace" and also makes for a lasting repair,
> 
> - Nick




Hi Nick,

Thanks for the updates.  I was using MIG Welding Machines 15 years ago to auto-weld steel sockets on to air receiver shells.How long ago was bronze wire made available with MIG. Plan to buy a MIG machine sometime later.
Will be a M.I.C aka Made In China MIG Machine. Waiting for feedback from my mates who just bought them. 10 years ago they breakdown easily.


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## Nick Hulme (Feb 20, 2015)

We had a training video on MIG brazing in the bodyshop in the late 80s but I believe bronze MIG welding was used in some industry sectors far earlier, I worked at IMI Yorkshire Imperial in Leeds in 1983/4 and they were using MIG for copper & bronze, 

 - Nick


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## Wizard69 (Feb 21, 2015)

gus said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I still haven't heard anything good about M.I.C. MIG welders, so don't expect good news.  At least not good news from somebody that has used a decent MIG welder.  On the other hand it does seem like at least some of the inverter based stick welders coming from China are pretty good.  

Not to sound like an advertisement but Lincoln has come out with a new MIG welder, a multi process welder really, that would fit right into many of the home shops that people here have.   I was very tempted however already having a MIG has made me close my eyes.


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## gus (Feb 22, 2015)

Hi Wizard,

Gus will buy/test/evaluate a M.I.C. Inverter Stick Rod Welding Machine. These mini welders are good for domestic power and no power trips. Maybe next buy a TIG machine. My welding skills is trade school level and will never make AWS level. If the weld holds,I will be happy. Please advise feed back on these two welding machines.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2015)

Gus,
 Kung Hay Fat Chow
I think that both Aldi and Lidl( two large German supermarket chains in Europe and UK) are selling these for about £30. They do work - and I got a rather nice leather apron from the accessory kit when nobody wanted them and the price dropped.

I bought a stick welder from Aldi to do ONE job- and then scrapped it. It was cheaper than paying silly prices for a bloke or a tool or both.  What the wise are doing is to buy 'Chinese' with Migs as well and doing the same. 

Again, I am buying 'Oriental' stuff and getting a three year unconditional warranty which is better than I can get elsewhere. I 'm running a trio of cars in the UK, a Mercedes Sports, an Audi A4 Avant S line and Skoda Monte Carlo but the little Spanish registered Hyundai is nearly as good-- and a lot cheaper. the body work is better than one Mercedes that needed 2 new wings, 2 doors, a new tailgate and 4 alloy wheels- and then the engine blew up. My son's S Class Estate has just come in from France- and has 'a pool of 'oil' underneath.  So he's running his little Lotus!

So stick welders? I'd do what I did years ago and fit a carbon arc thing- and braze our little workshop  'hobby' items. If we are 'hobby' engineers and I think that we are- if others are not, then doing something like what I have suggested is cold, economic sense.

Meantime

Enjoy the Year of the Goat. 

Norman


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## gus (Feb 23, 2015)

goldstar31 said:


> Gus,
> Kung Hay Fat Chow
> I think that both Aldi and Lidl( two large German supermarket chains in Europe and UK) are selling these for about £30. They do work - and I got a rather nice leather apron from the accessory kit when nobody wanted them and the price dropped.
> 
> ...



Gong Xi Fa Cai( in PutongHua).
Thanks for the feed back. The M.I.C. Stick welders are cheapy and nasty but they do work for a good while. At least they don't trip the mains or the neighbourhood sub-station. Plan to build another RT with Divider Plate to cut gears for the Howell V-2 timing gears. Little bit of welding required.
Having a dry spell now and fishing will be good.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2015)

Hi Gus,
           Agreed as the price of quarter tank of gas/diesel, what you say makes sound sense.

Mind you, all this fancy making of a rotary table and all its fiddle faddle, you can do much the same with a school child's plastic protractor. Not as interesting or noteworthy but I bought an old surface grinder and that was what came with it. On the same topic, there is a Goniostat from the Society of Ornamental Turners to do lathe tools-- and that is part of the design! 

Read an article about making a gear cutter from two ground ends of a lathe tool--- and he wrote a book on Screwcutting. Bloke is dead now but his book is still selling. He was also the person who tempered HSS steel with a carbon arc set up. It's quite a story but you have to dismiss what someone without the same sort of brain taught earlier. 

Anyway, I hope the fish are biting. Me, I set off to do a simple silver soldering  job on one of my wife's music stands and couldn't manage to hold it - it was snowing. 

Cheers

Norman


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## werowance (Feb 23, 2015)

goldstar31 said:


> it was expensive, was too soft and deformed on the rollers in my own Mig and and consequently caused jams.


 
I know what you mean about the rollers deforming wire,  used to do that on mine with aluminum until I bought the spool gun,  now that's the way to weld with aluminum  unless you need to fit into a tight spot, then its a pain.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2015)

As you will read in my post to Gus that I gave up( well temporarily at 84) such things. However, your point is well made and others should be aware and be guided.

So my thanks and more power to your elbow.

Norman


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## Wizard69 (Feb 23, 2015)

gus said:


> Hi Wizard,
> 
> Gus will buy/test/evaluate a M.I.C. Inverter Stick Rod Welding Machine. These mini welders are good for domestic power and no power trips. Maybe next buy a TIG machine. My welding skills is trade school level and will never make AWS level. If the weld holds,I will be happy. Please advise feed back on these two welding machines.




Hi Gus;

The welder I was hearing good things about was being imported by Harbor Freight.  Unfortunately I don't have the model number and frankly it stood out as the one welder HF was importing that was worth anything at all.   It came up in a conversation on one of the welding forums.  

If you are looking for current advise or manufactures names I'd suggest hooking up with a couple of the welding forums out there.    Apparently there are "better" welders coming into this country via E-Bay and Amazon so maybe you can get good recommendations there.  

Currently I have an older Lincoln MIG welder which is very good but also limited to just MIg/Flux Core.  I'm not sure I'd recommend a MIG welder for somebody focused on this hobby as it isn't as flexible as a stick welder, especially a stick welder that supports TIG welding.  If your interests are broader then all means consider a MIG.   With TIG support though you have far more control.  

The other option is a multiprocess welder like this new machine: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K3963-1(LincolnElectric).   It can do MIG, stick and TIG(DC).  Probably a master of none.  That being said I'm certain that if you find a machine like this being made in China, everybody in this forum would be interested especially if it comes in at well under $1000.   It would save having to buy multiple welders for many.


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## goldstar31 (Mar 6, 2015)

Just an update. I've just arrived home with a second hand 105 amp Mig and one of those fancy helmets which changes when an arc is struck.
At £75 which is less than the price of a tank of gas, it seemed too good to miss. We'll see. I've used shielding gas but never this newer fluxed wire variety. Any reports about it, please?

On my way to see the seller guy, I popped into the local supermarket for the odd food that I'd forgotten. Next week,There were Sharpenning stations using diamond wheels with spare wheels for £15 and double ended grinders for £20 advertised . OK, I have enough of both but really I wondered whether I was seeing things.

Hummm?

Norman


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## Swifty (Mar 6, 2015)

Hi Norman, I've often been tempted by those gasless mig welders, but have never seen the results. I have only heard that there not that good, still have a problem with slag on the welds.

Paul.


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## Cogsy (Mar 6, 2015)

The flux does make some slag although nowhere near as much as normal arc rods. Beacause of the slag though, and the lack of shielding gases in front of the torch, better results are had when running a bead while pulling the torch rather than the traditional pushing the torch forward. This keeps the weld pool away from the slag.

For cheapness and portability they can be good units though I vastly prefer a full gas setup. 

Out of sheer desperation I once welded a 4" long crack in the side of the cast iron cylinder block of my speedway car with a gasless mig and it held up perfectly. In fact I continued to use that block until I sold the car.


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## goldstar31 (Mar 6, 2015)

Thanks Paul and Al for the input. Basically, I don't want to be involved with large gas cylinders in what is now a very small, downsized workshop.
Space and time are at a premium. Again, I don't want the growing expense of silver solder etc. 

Now, I think that this will go for a lot of workers who don't have access to facilities outside their own home outfits. 

Going off in a whopping big tangent( sorry) I think that it is time to bin my wooden plate camera- and try to come into the 20th Cen- sorry 21th Century.

If I can keep the Old Grey Reaper outside the house, you never know!

Regards and Thanks

Norman


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## ShopShoe (Mar 6, 2015)

goldstar31,

I'm only a self-taught occasional welder, but learned with help of pro advice. I got a wire welder than can take either flux-core wire or solid wire with shielding gas. For the thin-metal work I bought this for, the shielding gas approach will provide more localized heat and create a welded joint with less distortion of the adjoining metal. The solid wire I use is also harder than the flux-core wire. It is also provides a weld that takes less cleanup.

As a man-of-many-hobbies, the flux-core wire is extremely useful and economical and I leave the machine set up with flux-core most of the time. Since my machine has several heat and feed settings, I have a fair amount of flexibility in what thickness of materials I can weld and I cannot provide any more information about the very small and low-cost machines on the market. I have seen recommendations for some of those for sale in the UK in some British car-restoration books I have, so I think you may have done all right with your purchase.

--ShopShoe


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## goldstar31 (Mar 6, 2015)

ShoeShop,
               Thanks for the information- most informative.
As you will guess, I sort of bought the little Mig without knowing a lot about it. From subsequent guessing/ I think that the claim of it being dual purpose is wrong. It suggests that this is a gas bottle job and to convert it to a dual macine will involve reversing the polarity- amongst other tasks. Probably, it could mean a new roller and so on. I simply don't know- yet as it is early days. However, I have bought a disposable CO2 bottle to play with. 

Really, I am not too worried about the welding process with gas as I have a City and Guilds in Motor Vehicle Restoration. A Looooooong time ago, naturally. I am most interested, however, in the flux filled wire process of which I literally haven't a clue. 

Given a bit of time, I hope that I can pass on my discoveries. 

I was at the refuse dump re-cycling my grass cuttings and came back with a few lengths of square hollow tubing. I have some from a scrap table as well. It might turn out to be a Tinker tool and cutter grinder. So far, no one has really commented about one. Let's say, I am interested.

Meanwhile, thanks to all for the input

Norman


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## Swifty (Mar 6, 2015)

I have seen the mig welders advertised as gas / gasless, I recall that one of the local hardware chains has introduced welding gas bottle swap without the yearly hire rates, may be worth me investigating further. The cost of having to pay yearly bottle hire has put me off in the past.

Paul.


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## goldstar31 (Mar 7, 2015)

Paul, Apologies but I hadn't signed in earlier.
You are quite right about DP machines  but I suspect that mine isn't. It can be but probably the change over etc and fitting the new electrics will out price 'bottle hire' for a year. I'm heading for 85- too quickly!

I must mention that this is a very much out of date bargain basement and untried machine which I got. Several things arise, however. I'm not, and never was an engineer( whatever that means)I could buy a scrap car ( a VW Polo) for £75 and give it to my son for his 17th birthday and he is now almost 42. However, and this is important( and on topic) a tool and cutter grinder can be fabricated-from steel sections. I built a Stent from castings and my present one- bought just for the motor, is equally as good. I might have a fancy Staking tool from castings but my first one came from a guy who welded up a very similar one. 

It does offer thoughts beyond the more usual ways of making things- in the home workshop.

Regards

Norman


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## Tin Falcon (Mar 7, 2015)

I have A cheap department store variety  gassless wire feed welder that was given to me . An acquaintance from the church was moving back to  WV. And gave me the welder I gave him some traveling money in return. 
I have taken welding classes at the local vo-tech was trained as a welder by the USAF and worked in a Fab shop sometimes welding 300 - 400  pipe to plate welds a day. 
So I have a little welding experience. IMHO the wire feed welders are fine for back yard fabrication projects with 1/8 steel. I have welded up several decorative shelves a storage rack for steel  and my son has used it to turn a small pickup truck body into a trailer. 

Yes the home flux wire leaves some slag to clean and the little splatter  balls are a pain  but. for the money they work well. And welding like painting much of the success is in prep and finishing. I bevel all but welds. Easier line to follow and helps penetration. 
And remember the flux gives off a lot of fumes so use plenty of ventilation.  I weld out doors. 
Tin


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## werowance (Mar 8, 2015)

I agree with tin.  My Lincoln weld pro 175 was sort of a freebie from the to brothers who first started teaching me to weld.   Was first flux wire only which in my opinion works better on dirty greasy steel better than gas.   But that said once I put the gas kit in my welder then later put a spool gun on it I rarely use flux


flux leaves a huge amount of slag and contamination that takes some work to remove before painting.  But flux seems to work better for quick farm equipment repairs.  Even on cast iron which I know you aren't supposed to weld with standard wire and standard steel welding practices yet it will penetrate and hold really well.  

Everything else is pretty much co2 argon gas mix with mig wire.  Clean v groove the joint and weld.   Little to no cleanup before primer and paint. 

Using smaller gauge wire with gas is also nice as u have fewer jams and can twist the weld lead at a sharper angle and not cause a jam


Example I would use .040 or .045 in flux but with gas I use .030 or .035 because the core is solid in the gas wire

AnywAy if you switch from flux to gas please remember to reverse polarity on your leads.   Fought that little detail when I converted to gas and couldn't hardly stick 2 pieces of metal together.   It just bounced off the surface of the steel


Good luck
Bryan


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