# Taig ER16 Headstock



## /// (Oct 31, 2011)

I am seriously considering buying a Taig ER16 collet headstock to use as the spindle on my CNC router but don't know if it will fit, I have searched pretty hard but cannot find any dimensional info anywhere.

Could someone with a Taig that has the current version of the headstock, measure it's criticals for me please?

Also, any comments seasoned Taig owners on the quality of the headstock? Runout etc?

Many Thanks,
Simon


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## dwentz (Oct 31, 2011)

I had this in my notes, it has a few detentions on it. It was from some other project plans.

I believe the standard headstock is the same other than the spindle. I am not near my Taig so I can not measure it, sorry.

Dale




View attachment taig-headstock.pdf


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## /// (Oct 31, 2011)

That is actually very helpful Dale, Thanks.
I'm confident now it will be suitable to my needs.
Time to order! ;D


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## DICKEYBIRD (Oct 31, 2011)

CNC router spindle as in 20K rpm plus? I thought Taig spindles were similar to a Sherline (I have one of those) and in standard configuration are good for only 3500 or so? You can readjust the bearing preload on Sherlines and speed them up some but nowhere near 20K.

Not trying to be negative, just sayin'....


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## shred (Oct 31, 2011)

FWIW, stock top speed on a Taig is close to 10K RPM, and the spindles are tested to more than that for hours on end.


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## DICKEYBIRD (Oct 31, 2011)

Wow, I stand corrected! I'd have lost money on that one. 

I just looked on the Carter Tools website and yep, they list 10500 rpm top speed on their CNC version, or as a high speed upgrade on their manual mill. Cool!


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## /// (Nov 1, 2011)

While trying to find dimensions I read somewhere that the bearings are rated 17k but not to go over 15k if you want reasonable life.
Don't think I will be pushing it that hard though!

Edit: Make that 24k!
Couldn't remember where I saw it, but found it in my browser history:
Taig mill/lathe spindle bearings
"_According to their website, the ORS 6203s are rated for 17,000 rpm with grease lubrication or 24,000 with oil lubrication. It doesn't specify whether the rating applies to an open bearing or a sealed bearing so it is possible that the actual limit is a bit lower. 

 I suspect that one could run the Taig spindle at 15-16K and still get reasonable bearing life. The trick would be to do a few tests and monitor the bearing temperatures. If the temperatures remain reasonable, then you can probably get away with the higher speeds._"


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## steamer (Nov 1, 2011)

24K sounds like mist lube speed to me.  The oil is mixed with compressed air and put into the housing and passes out through the labyrinth seals. The oil lubricates and the compressed air cools the bearings.  This is pretty standard machine tool practice. It has the added benefit of keeping coolant out of the bearings if the labyrinth seal is designed right.


Grease pack bearings max out usually in the 10K range so the statements made jive with my past experience.

Dave


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## /// (Nov 1, 2011)

Cheers for the input Dave. Had not heard of mist lube before.
While we are on the subject of bearings, do you know anything about using graphite as a dry lube? Pro's/Con's?


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## steamer (Nov 1, 2011)

For slow speed applications, it would probably be fine....but definitly does not replace grease pack or mist lube for a spindle application.

The heat generated in the bearing liquifies the grease in a grease pack making it flow into the bearing race. At higher speeds the high viscosity of the grease generates too much heat, and a lower viscosity lubricant (oil) and a fluid to transfer heat to ( air and or oil) work much better

Just my 2B....

Dave


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## /// (Nov 3, 2011)

Cheers Dave, oil it is then.

Headstock has been ordered, thank you A2Z.
Now hunting for the motor.


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 3, 2011)

Max speed also depends on bearing design. High speed spindle bearings of the same size can run 50kRPM with grease lube. Of course, I have to think they are using application specific grease. There is also the issue of running a metallic ball cage at high RPM, it might not last long.


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## steamer (Nov 3, 2011)

Hey Diesel,

Yea I was thinking mear mortal bearings put together with rubber mallets and a twist of the spindle nut for good luck....not the ones with ceramic balls, millionths precision and nearly the same amount of digits in the price tag.....Taig and Sherline spindles are VERY basic....I think with good lube 10K is doable....beyond that well....it's a crap shoot

///

Like I said....if your 10K and under...your probably OK with a grease pack and that design....I would use MIST LUBE for higher, but putting one together may be a trick. You might try one of the commercial mist lubricators for cutting lubricant and replumbing it...that may work. Of course...some of you CNC guys probably have a better method for the home shop guy....my back ground is industrial

You want to make the oil into a mist or essentially an aerosol.  large droplets or streams are not what you want.  The seal on the spindle should be a labyrinth type that lets the air and most of the oil out the seal....this can make for a nasty work environment if your generous with the oil. It will require some experimentation.

Dave


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 3, 2011)

How is the runout on these spindles? According to the SKF site it looks like the bearings would have a very good life, if the load is light and the correct grease is chosen. Bearings at high speed need to be preloaded for long life.

I understand about the cost of bearings, but some patience on thEbay yields high speed spindle bearings for 10% or less of new. That's how I get mine. My spindle project is moving again so I'll see how it goes.


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## Swede (Nov 6, 2011)

This is an interesting and informative thread. I don't have a lot of experience or understanding of just how a high speed spindle's bearing set should be lubricated. I do know that my model gas turbine engines use ceramic bearings for upwards of 160,000 RPM, and these are lubricated via a total-loss, non-recirculating system that delivers kerosene with about 3% synthetic 2-stroke oil content.

My 50,000 RPM KaVo spindle is supposedly lubricated for life. It uses 1-bar compressed air to pressurize the spindle body and prevent foreign substances from getting into the bearings, but as to the nature of the lubrication for them, I have no idea. The user manual for the spindle does not mention anything like an in-line oiler.

Diesel, that may be something you'd want to consider for your spindle project. It'd be relatively easy to drill and tap the spindle body for a pneumatic fitting, and into that fitting, you could create an oil delivery system. At the very least, filtered overpressure in the spindle body should help protect the bearings, as well as keep them cool.

Given that, a light synthetic oil would work well. Gravity as well as air pressure, and centrifugal forces, could deliver the oil where it is needed. It'd probably be one of those cases where less oil is better, just a very slight weeping of light oil when the spindle body is pressurized.


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## steamer (Nov 6, 2011)

Hi Swede,

If you talking ceramic ball and race bearings....they don't need much...but they ARE expensive.....

As to lubrication.....it all depends doesn't it.  I don't know what the inside of your spindle looks like...but clearly its still running and likes the environment its in.

Generally you can only speak broadly without a drawing in front of you.  At Heald, with the RedHead spindles....under 7500 was a grease pack...above that....like 120K+....was mist lube.

That was 25 years ago...before ceramic ball and races synthetic greases were really mainstream ...at least in that building.

Dave


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 6, 2011)

If you want to look at some Kavo drawings they do have manuals online with a detailed cross-section. Hybrid ceramics spindle bearings are stupid expensive. The engineering references for machine tool bearings are very informative. The Timken catalog in particular, they list 6 synthetic greases for high speed bearings. I don't see any grease in my bearings. I'll have to check with my bearing supplier to see if they have it. It looks like a bearing in the size I'm using needs about 1 gram of grease. Timken says for their high speed spindle bearings ceramic balls can run 20% faster, but have a lower load rating for the same spec. And can run 50% faster with oil in place of grease.


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## steamer (Nov 6, 2011)

Their light weight reduces centripetal loads and reduces the amount of heat produced
Even STD super precision are extremely expensive. For some applications even ABEC 9 bearings weren't good enough. Heald had a special spec series made called ABEC 9+ by NHBB.

Dave


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## Swede (Nov 9, 2011)

Greg, wouldn't grease in your spindle simply melt and run the first time they heat up any significant amount, and thus leave them unprotected? I'd guess the Timken and similar catalogues have all sorts of info, as mentioned.

Do you like the notion of a pneumatic fitting to your spindle? Bearing shields or some sort of labyrinth add drag, and you're going to want to protect those bearings from abrasive, ultra-fine swarf.

Ditto on bearing expense. To our eyeballs, a $100 bearing looks a lot like a $2 bearing. I remember when I was making my bench CNC mill, I snapped up quite a few insanely nice bearing sets on eBay for a couple of bucks... it's a good feeling!  I do remember those ceramic bearings for the turbine as being about $120 for a pair of them. The price could easily have been worse. Balancing the rotating mass for 160,000 RPM ops was the hard part, but of course without that your $120 bearings become scrap under load.


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## mu38&Bg# (Nov 10, 2011)

With what is available today I'm sure there is a grease that's suitable and won't melt. There are even some bearings that have what's called solid grease.

One of these days, I'll build a turbine around the 31mm compressor wheels I bought some years ago. Commercial RC turbine running the same compressor run about 250,000 RPM.

Greg


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