# parts for an old time genny.



## Kermit (Jun 22, 2009)

Hello again. 

This was going to be about my struggles to get some sheet steel cut up into 33 pcs.
Carried on from  http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5259.0

But it has turned out to be about me getting my equipment working. Let's just say I used up my saws motor much quicker than I should have been able to. It was a chinese made motor marked 3/4 HP. I don't think so! Third sudden stop with my third use. Not the starting cap this time, just the whole motor. Probably a burned up stator or rotor winding. Having put enough parts and "shipping and handling" charges into this saw. I decided to getz mahself an American motor(from Mexico ;D)






off with the old motor





New motor aquired





Punch a hole in new motor wiring grommet





put wire through grommet and get it dressed up.





Ready for mating!





2nd try at connection. It never rotates the right direction the first time silly.





ready to resume the $109 dollar cut.





Utility powered. Yeah!





What you get for one whole days work and hard earned money.



So begins my next adventure,
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Jun 22, 2009)

And so the quest for the elusive electrical nirvana continues ..... :big:


BC1
Jim


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## PhillyVa (Jun 22, 2009)

Say Kermit





off with the old motor

I wouldn't be working without any boots...sharp corners are a little hard on the toes. Just one of my th_rulze.

Regards

Philly


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## Kermit (Jun 22, 2009)

PhillyVa  said:
			
		

> Say Kermit
> I wouldn't be working without any boots...sharp corners are a little hard on the toes. Just one of my th_rulze.
> 
> Regards
> ...



Neither would I. Soft white underbelly and all that...

Those toes belong to my oldest son. Helpful when I can get him to come over(usually have to bribe him with supper!) ;D






Nothing much to see yet. A few days of sawing should get me to a place where I can START! :big:


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## Seanol (Jun 22, 2009)

Kermit,
I did the exact same thing to my 4x6 saw as well. What I found was the balance was off after so I bolted 2 scuba lead weights to the top handle and now the downfeed actually works throughout the range.

Good write up,
Sean


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## Kermit (Jun 22, 2009)

made another 5 cuts. Total of six plates so far. About 60 minutes on the saw.

The last one took twice as long as all the rest. Worn blade? I took a look and every eight to ten teeth you find one missing. Judging by the shape the motor was in two minutes after starting, I'm placing my bets on the chinese blade.

Cheep buyers beware. That's what ya get.

So far I am impressed with the overall mechanism. 



			
				Seanol  said:
			
		

> Kermit,
> ...I found was the balance was off after so I bolted 2 scuba lead weights to the top handle and now the downfeed actually works throughout the range.



This unit has a bar with length adj. attached to a spring which tensions the upper jaw of the saw. It functions just like a counter weight. I've got a picture of it somewhere here. I'll take a minute with photobucket here in a few. Thanks for adding Seanol.  Really, it seems like it will be a wonderful little saw with a good motor and some good quality steel teeth. Perhaps I'll get around to widening the vise. (1/8" to small to hold the plates I'm cutting-wouldn't ya know  )

Kermit


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## arnoldb (Jun 23, 2009)

Hi Kermit



			
				Kermit  said:
			
		

> Worn blade? I took a look and every eight to ten teeth you find one missing.



Yes, it could be the blade, but even quality blades might do this:

I noticed from one of your earlier pictures that the tooth spacing on your blade appears to be larger than the plate is thick. This is not a problem for the long cut through the top (flat part) of the plate, but the moment it goes through this, and hits the vertical edges of the plate, the blade teeth will bite in deep and grab, and might get broken off. I've had similar issues - what I do is check end when the cut starts going just onto the vertical pieces of the plate, I manually hold up the the saw head slightly to make for a lighter cut through the last thin vertical parts - this helps a lot.

Regards, Arnold


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## Kermit (Jun 23, 2009)

The substitute for the counter weight is pictured here.

So I need to go shopping for blades. Any brand suggestions or warnings?


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## steamer (Jun 23, 2009)

Kermit,

It wourd appear that your cutting sheetmetal.

The pitch of the blade teeth needs to be finer than the thickness of the sheet stock, otherwise it will hook and break teeth.....check it out.. 

Dave


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## Kermit (Jun 23, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> The pitch of the blade teeth needs to be finer than the thickness of the sheet stock
> Dave



Well. I wondered why the teeth looked so much bigger than the ones on my hack saw. But the config of the blade does seem to do well on long continuous stretches. I will need at least two blades. A fine tooth and a coarse tooth one.

I'll leave the post be for a few days until I get this problem behind me.

Thanks everyone,
Kermit


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## itowbig (Jun 23, 2009)

i have to buy 4 or 5 blades cause i seem to go thew them a lot i have found that the better blades (more $$$$$) work much better then the el cheapo's Ive been though 12 el cheapos (to two good ones). then i got the better blade and they last a bit longer


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## Kermit (Jun 23, 2009)

Stepping up to 18 tpi from the 14 tpi. Or what would it be in metric? ...5.5 teeth per centimeter? 1/2 tooth per mm?

WHO CARES  ;D   


I will have this one cutting for me by next week. Not the best in the box but it is a good brand. So after using it for awhile, I'll decide what or how much to grab. I do want a really coarse one for my occasional wood cutting needs. I also notice that really good blades are scarce in "my size" of machine. 
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000099459251


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## deverett (Jun 26, 2009)

Buying bandsaw blades in bulk - usually in 100ft lengths - works out much cheaper than buying individual blades.

Joining them is not too difficult with silver (hard) solder in a clamp type jig with a small gap for the join, but unfortunately I am unable to post a picture while I am out here in Saudi.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## Kermit (Jun 26, 2009)

I'm only up so early this morning because we are getting the car packed for a 330 mile trip up to Abilene, for to see the grand babies.



I won't be doing much metal cutting this weekend, but I think I'll enjoy it this time,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Jun 29, 2009)

Something that will make that fumbly blade installation much easier.

Still need both hands and about 12 fingers but taping the blade as shown then starting with the top and bottom, above and below the taped section, push it on all around and keep your top hand on the tension knob when it gets there.












This is where I had stopped.






A total of 12 cuts approx 6 inches long, consumed a starting capacitor(chinese), a 3/4 hp motor(chinese), and a blade.

 ;D
Kermit


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## steamer (Jun 29, 2009)

As long as the parts where replaced with good ones, it was probably worth it! :big:

Dave


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## Kermit (Jul 9, 2009)

Found some pics for ideas and design inspiration.
















The smooth rounded curves everywhere say 'castings', but I'm not going to use any castings. Gonna have to come up with another way if I want that look.

Bird is the word,
Kermit


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## steamer (Jul 9, 2009)

OOOOOOH Kermit, nice pictures!

I like that, what kind of generator is that anyway, it's got armature windings and I think a commutator, so DC?......It would have needed a field source too wouldn't it?

Dave


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## kf2qd (Jul 9, 2009)

First 2 pictures look like DC, but the second oone has 3 brushes on the commutator so it looks like a 3 phase AC unit to me. The "General Electric" on the side might be a hint in that direction also.


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## Kermit (Jul 9, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> OOOOOOH Kermit, nice pictures!
> 
> I like that, what kind of generator is that anyway, it's got armature windings and I think a commutator, so DC?......It would have needed a field source too wouldn't it?
> 
> Dave



The first two pics are left and right side of a Westinghouse 20Kwatt alternator. It used a separate DC exciting dynamo for the field coils. The G.E unit in pic 3 is also a 3 phase alternator, but it has a DC commutator on the shaft to divert a portion of the output back to the field magnets(self exciting).


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## Kermit (Jul 12, 2009)

raw material for the field magnet iron is ready.







As for plans, this is what I have so far.








Coming along slowly,
Kermit


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 12, 2009)

Here are some pics I took at the rouge steel here in detroit.

This 8000 amp genny was driven by a 2800 HP motor. This might be original equipment installed by Henry Ford back in 1927. This is below ground level inder the white shed where the van is sitting.


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## Kermit (Jul 20, 2009)

I think my newbie eye hasn't yet learned to tell the difference between what a part done on the lathe looks like vs. one done with a mill.

The style of genny I want to build is mostly a "milling" worked part. 

What I need for this year is a genny project that can be made with just the lathe and some SMALL milling appropriate to the milling attachment I put in my lathe tool post.

After spending all weekend burning my wooden brain in thought about this, I found a genny that looks like it has much less need of milling operations. I'm sure another roadblock will appear(they always do) but I'm inexperienced enough not to be able to see them coming ;D

Any advice along the lines of doing this Without milling would be appreciated. So without further delay, here is the modified plan


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## steamer (Jul 20, 2009)

Check out Elmers generator.....

Dave


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## Kermit (Jul 20, 2009)

So, what I see in ELMERS plans is this piece which needs to be milled.

I think I could manage that on the lathe attachment.  Thank you Steamer, I wouldn't have remembered this little generator without you.


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## RobWilson (Jul 20, 2009)

Hi Kermit
i have some drawings and info on the type of gen your building, can scan them if it would help.






Regards Rob


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## Kermit (Jul 20, 2009)

Those plans look excellent Rob! I don't think I'm currently talented enough to build that one yet, but I will most certainly take you up on that offer. Perhaps next year?  I AM going to build it but I need some other simplier tasks completed and lots more reading and schooling before I'm ready to tackle that one.

Thanks for the kind replies,
Kermit


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 20, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> I think my newbie eye hasn't yet learned to tell the difference between what a part done on the lathe looks like vs. one done with a mill.
> 
> Any advice along the lines of doing this Without milling would be appreciated.



The old adage is that the lathe is to make round things and the mill and shaper for square things. 
In the machinist world there are many times mill guys and lathe guys. If your favored tool is the lathe you will do most of your work on that . Or if you like mill work that will be favored. I definitely favor the lathe but as the cnc comes to completion that may change at least until I cnc the lathe LOL. Just do what works for you . As my USAF sheet metal instructor used to say when I completed one step of a project "Press ON!"
Tin


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## steamer (Jul 20, 2009)

What I meant was take a look and see how he did it.

He may have some ideas on how to do some of the parts in a lathe.

I will ponder your plight and touch back in a bit......chear up, a lathe can do anything......you just have to ask politely ;D


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## steamer (Jul 20, 2009)

Zee,

What you need is an index head to go with your milling attachment.  You will also need a sacraficial face plate....good news is you can make them yourself.


Does your milling attachment look like this?
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1681&category=1

If so you need an Atlas style indexer. I have the plans for that beast somewhere, I will dig them up and send them to you. Here's the idea/sketch





The Sacraficial faceplate is just that, sacraficial!...you will make it from a piece of 6" round aluminum.  You can get that at Metal Express all cut to length. It has a 3/4" diameter spindle that can be a piece of TGP mild steel. You can get that from them also.

Here's the basic idea at a part routing.....
After blueing up with a good sharpy marker and carefully laying the stator out

1  through drill the plates and tap drill the faceplate. Mount the plates to the faceplate at the 4 corners and using the indexer, drill for the tap drill for the 6 bolts.  Clearance drill the plates for the screw size, and then tap the holes in the faceplate.  Put in the 6 bolts into the faceplate. You could just lay this job out and do it on the drill press. The chordal distance between the 6 holes is equal to the radius of the bolt circle. If you raise a burr between the plates after the drilling you will need to disassemble them and debur before you go on.

2. bore the 3" hole.....you can cut part way into the faceplate. Start with a drill and bore it out with a boring bar. I put a reduced diameter on the faceplate so that you could chuck it up easily in the 4 jaw......you can do it in a 3 jaw, but not as accurately.
You should get the 4 jaw anyways.

3. Set the faceplate and its spindle in the index block, and pick up on the bolt holes for angular location and center on the 3" bore.. 

4. Raise the milling attachment up by the width of the "tongue" and prepare to mill the slots to the mark out line. Mill the slots by indexing the faceplate.

5.  Use the Bogstandard technique for turning round slugs to turn the OD. This of course after you take the corner bolts out.
CAN SOMEBODY dig that article up? 

6. You will end up with the colored little triangles at the bottom of the slots. I would with the equipment you have just file them to the line carefully.. I think trying to do circular milling with this arrangelment is far to dangerous. It will get away from you.

To file this accurately, you will need to make a pair of filing guides.  They are made in the lathe.  When you get that far, I'll show you.


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## Kermit (Jul 20, 2009)

Whew, ;D

That's what I call 'suggestions'. Thank you very much Steamer!

As for milling equipment. Here is what I got...






I have plans for the getting the mill in my house by Christmas, I hope sooner, but most likely later than that. 

I'm gonna try making Elmers little generator first. I just need to make something easy enough for me to complete, without finding out I need more things to go with all the things I have already.  

I should also be getting a MT3 tapered manual endmill holder, so no more endmills in the chuck looking like stubby drill bits. Hopefully that will increase the rigidity of my setup at least a smidge.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the replies.
Kermit


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## steamer (Jul 20, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

Yes I know a bit long winded.....A bit unrealistic, in the sense that it would be a struggle, but it could very well be done with what you have and some gumption.

My point was to show you that the "King of machine tools" can be asked to do all kinds of things.....fire her up and put some scrap aluminum in there and try! 

Alexander Graham Bell I believe said " Make mistakes as fast as you can, you will learn something!"

Just go slow and think about what your doing......

Now with that rig, I suspect Elmers armature will be short work...I'm expecting pictures!  ;D

Dave


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## Kermit (Jul 24, 2009)

So, I have never used a four jaw chuck before.  It requires centering.






Don't know what rule I broke doing it, but it was successfully centered quite quickly.

Next problem was to clean up the interior of a ring, but I have no boring bars or anything round to mount them in. Broke some more rules I'm sure by placing two 1/4" HSS cutters beneath the tool to bring it up to center line. But the result was a nice part.










Now I kinda know how to do it ;D


This is fun; I just wish I knew what that part is for.
Kermit


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## steamer (Jul 24, 2009)

Kermit,

If you get the right answer, you did it right!..... ;D

Good for you!....... :bow:

what assembly does that part want to be part of?


Most people starting out hate 4 jaws.....I know I did.....but they grow on ya and they are a much more ridgid and adaptable chuck than a three jaw.

It would appear you figured it out on your own......working the jaws in opposite pairs works for me

Dave


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## Maryak (Jul 24, 2009)

Kermit,

Good one, necessity is often the mother of invention and innovation. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Kermit (Jul 24, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> what assembly does that part want to be part of?



I'm thinking it would look good as a flywheel. However, spokes and hub would need to be made AND centered exactly...perhaps I should think of something else. ???




			
				Maryak  said:
			
		

> Good one, necessity is often the mother of invention and innovation.



Thanks, that does alot for my confidence in myself.




Steamer, I think I just came up with an idea for how to use the ring as part of the magnetic circuit of the genny.  Let me make a few sketches and see how much machining it would require to utilize sections of the ring as pole pieces at the armature face.

Always doing something and thinking afterwards,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Jul 24, 2009)

Okay. I'll need to make some different sized spacers to make the magnets fit and I'll have to use three instead of two magnets. but the pole shoes should make it easier than boring out the uprights to provide for the curved fit as in the old design.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled project; already in progress,
Kermit 

View attachment dynamo2small.pdf


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## steamer (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

I would do the final shaping of the stator ( bore) as an assembly.

You will get a much tighter fit and if you follow his directions, you bore the bearings out too in the same set up.

Anytime you can do multiple diameters in the same setup, you just about garuantee concentric diameters......Something to strive for in all of our small creations..........ask me how I know this : ;D

The set up seems ugly, but you have everything you need.....

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 5, 2009)

I gave up with the attempt at boring the two bars as an assy. on the lathe. I could never get a setup that seemed safe enough to spin up on the lathe. Parts just seem a little oversized for the setup I have. Or it that just me?

Anywho, I'll post a pic or two later today. I'm taking it with me to visit with the Big Mills at work.  :-X

Shhhh! Don't tell anyone. I'll just take credit for all the work when I have it done, And...... 


Kermit


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## Kermit (Aug 8, 2009)

Soft 1018 cut to size.  Second time effort, armed with more knowledge of what not to do. ;D






Skipped the part where I mount it on my lathe, then crap my pants, and took it straight in to work. The sight of those big Bridgeport knee mills scared all the rust right off them two parts. Just Look!







Next up is a drilling and reaming job for a stainless steel bolt that will go through a 3/16 hole in the magnets, and in the two field pieces.

Kermit 

View attachment drawing1.pdf


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## arnoldb (Aug 8, 2009)

Looking Good Kermit Thm:



> Skipped the part where I mount it on my lathe, then crap my pants, and took it straight in to work. The sight of those big Bridgeport knee mills scared all the rust right off them two parts


 Rof} Scary stuff doing loop-the-loops in the lathe ;D - Just wish I had access to a rust-scaring machine :'(

Regards, Arnold


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## Kermit (Aug 10, 2009)

Start with me jabbing my hand into spotting drill about 15 seconds after putting it there. Little tiny drop of blood.   Good omen. I've never had anything fail if I bled on it. 











Next I put ONE of the metal pieces down on the plate, and try this fixturing thing again. Skip ahead about an hour and we find it centered and ready to meet a tool.









Three handed camera work


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## Kermit (Aug 10, 2009)

Hit the post button for some unknown reason. 

So, anyway. I made a hole in some metal.











Only missed my mark by .01 inches from the 2 inch edge and dead on between the long edges. Might not get that good a result from a drill press, but I'd have been done with it about 90 minutes sooner.

  Learning is a Hoot 
Kermit


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## steamer (Aug 10, 2009)

Thats a decent set up Kermit.....watch those step blocks though as they can fly on a faceplate setup.   But so can just about anything else you clamp to a faceplate ;D


Good For you !


And a karma point for the initiative!

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the words.

I finished the other end of that one about an hour later and learned a few things I needed to know in this process. Since I don't HAVE to do it this way I will be using the drill press on the other field piece. (Now that I've got a 'jig' for drilling the hole in the proper place)  ;D


Kermit


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## steamer (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

You'll find it gets a lot easier with practice.  It took me a while, but now I don't have any quams slapping something on the faceplate and having at it. I have been meaning to make a faceplate spindle for setting work, but never got the "roundtuit"...

You make a duplicate of your lathe spindle and mount it on a bearing....any will do really, and set it verticle in the bench vice.  Then you can mount your part on and spin the faceplate in the horizontal plane.....no more dropping everything on the lathe bed....you can even tram it in...... :.Im running out of excuses not to build this now.... 
 :big:

Dave


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## steamer (Aug 10, 2009)

and oh by the way....

I NEVER poked a nice center hole or got a nice big open fillet of parting tool gash on the back of my hand EVER......REALLY!.... :


Just about every other session!.....you get the hint and take the tool out between measuring sessions......takes a few years :big:


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## Kermit (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the pointer sbout a spindle for faceplate work Steamer. I had envisioned something silly like a lazy susan for the faceplate to sit on while worked on it.  
Progress as of end of last night: Both holes bored and magnets tried for fit.

They stuck.   :-X

Left them there and took some pics.  










Kermit, who is waiting on an order of 3 magnets to arrive.

(sitting in a chair tapping my foot)


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## Kermit (Aug 12, 2009)

An order of magnets just arrived. Wooooo Whooo!

Now what?,
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Aug 12, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> An order of magnets just arrived. Wooooo Whooo!
> 
> Now what?,
> Kermit



Ok, now you will be able to put the kids art back up on the refrigerator door before the wife notices they are missing :big:

So far, looking good.

BC1
Jim


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## Kermit (Aug 12, 2009)

My progress - and a pile of raw material, in aluminum and brass flavor.





















There is a alot generator parts hiding in those pieces of stock, I hope they aren't too hard to find,
Kermit


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 12, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> There is a alot generator parts hiding in those pieces of stock, I hope they aren't too hard to find,



I can't see them but I know you can.

I have to admit to being a bit lost...even after reading the entire thread tonight...but I'm hooked, drat you. Looking forward to more.


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## Kermit (Aug 13, 2009)

added one axle support and bearing to my 'sketch'. I eventually want to have a motor of some sort on the plate the generator will be mounted too. Thats the reason for it being so far to one side of the plate.

If anyone has any suggestions for bearing supports that wouldn't need to much milling work, I'm all ears at this point.

Kermit 

View attachment Magneto 2.pdf


View attachment Magneto 2.pdf


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## arnoldb (Aug 13, 2009)

Good progress Kermit 
I'm pretty sure you'll be coaxing those hidden parts out of the stock in no time 

Regards, Arnold


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## Kermit (Aug 21, 2009)

Progress has been slow and intermittant.

First there were delays with "ailments" of various sorts. Mostly related to school starting in a few days I would bet. This progressed to a reminder about "that box you promised to build me". Which I honestly don't remember ever even discussing much less promising, but squirm and twist as hard as I may, I ended up presenting this to my young son who "ails" a few day later.






Shortly thereafter I proceeded to my next tragedy in waiting. Ready for too tap two holes I was. (Sounds even funnier out loud)  
6-32 was the flavor I had chosen for my stainless steel hardware...Which tap do you suppose was missing from my set when went looking for it? Easy answer!
The one I needed of course.

Almost time for another weeks raw material order, (Garolite tubing and strips) so I had Mr Master throw another tap in the box for me as well.

Results











of a weeks work :-\

I'll try to be more productive, but I'm not getting paid to do this you know  

Kermit


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## RobWilson (Aug 21, 2009)

Looking good Kermit Thm: 

Regards Rob


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## steamer (Aug 22, 2009)

Looks great Kermit.

Keep at it your on the right track!

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 23, 2009)

I can't figure this one out. I need some conceptual help/

I want to take these:





and turn them on the lathe so they are 1.5 inches in dia...AND they have to be concentric with the axis of this future axle rod.





so they in turn can form the ends of a 2 inch long cylinder like this one.






I need one end of the cylinder to be removeable after it is machined so I can't permenatly affix them to anything for the turning operation. What method of securing the pieces for turning should I use? 

If I use another piece of 1/2 inch rod with threaded ends, could I risk the work not being concentric with the brass rod?

 ???

Kermit


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

If I understand you correctly, you want to turn the OD's to 1.50" and concentric with the bore?

I would make an arbor for that...






The bolt size is the largest you can fit in comfortably, without interfering with the arbor.

The turning forces will tend to tighten the bolt, but take light cuts and cut the corners off first if you can. That will reduce the amount of interupted cutting you will need to do.

Dave


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## joe d (Aug 23, 2009)

Kermit

I was just going to suggest how I would go about that, and Steamer beat me to it. It works.... Thm:

Joe


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry Joe!

Dave


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## joe d (Aug 23, 2009)

That's OK Dave...

This is me , you and kermit:  *discussion*

It was good to see that somebody else would do it that way ...
now I don't feel so alone :big:

Cheers, Joe


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

Anyway that gets it done is the right way Joe.....no time clocks here.

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 23, 2009)

So I take a piece of 5/8 brass rod and cut about 2.5 inches off. Face it up and center drill, drill-tap say 1/4-20.  The turn down a shoulder to a 1/2 inch(tight fit) for a short distance say 1/8 inch and use a bolt and washer to hold the parts in place on that tiny 1/2 inch end.  

Is that about it?

(A big grin just came across my face) I'm a litte embarrassed as in hind sight that seems like such a simple thing. NOW, it is a simpler thing. One of those hit yourself in the forehead moments. 


Thank you guys,
Kermit


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

You got it Kermit....I would change your approuch slightly..

Use the biggest diameter you can under 1.5".  It will grip the part better

Dave


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## joe d (Aug 23, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Is that about it?




Yup. ;D

Edit to add: Dave: you beat me to it again....

Joe


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

(A big grin just came across my face) I'm a litte embarrassed as in hind sight that seems like such a simple thing. NOW, it is a simpler thing. One of those hit yourself in the forehead moments. 



oh and you think this only happens to you!? ;D

Dave


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

OK Joe....Sorry....I'll turn the typing speed pot down a bit..... ;D


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## joe d (Aug 23, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> OK Joe....Sorry....I'll turn the typing speed pot down a bit..... ;D



Not on my account Dave.... these days I don't hurry unless I have to... :big: betcha Kermit is happy that somebody answered, let alone at what speed....

OK Kermit: get to work! 

Joe


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## Kermit (Aug 23, 2009)

I love this place   ;D

Okay, so I've got the plan of attack, but nothing bigger than 5/8 in the stock pile yet. Hmm, I suppose I could do one in 1018...got tons of the stuff. At least it feels like it when I look through the pile for something.. 

Gonna sign off for tonight gentlemen, You have relived my mind of this enigma and now I'm feeling the hours.

More pics for you soon,
Kermit


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## steamer (Aug 23, 2009)

joe d  said:
			
		

> Not on my account Dave.... these days I don't hurry unless I have to... :big: betcha Kermit is happy that somebody answered, let alone at what speed....
> 
> OK Kermit: get to work!
> 
> Joe



Oh I think you hit that on the head!....Have a good night Joe!

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 24, 2009)

Found a 4 inch piece of 1.5 inch tubing predrilled with a 1/4 inch hole. Perfect for a 5/16 -18 tap.
































Thanks again for the hints and help,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Aug 25, 2009)

Just an update to my drawing to show how the rotor will be machined.

Have to wait for a 5/64 end mill with a 3/8 shank to arrive via FedEx first.




Kermit 

View attachment dynamo3small.pdf


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## steamer (Aug 25, 2009)

Alright!
Congratulations!
That didn't hurt a bit did it! ;D

You have passed a great milestone in lathe operation...pretty soon you will be staying up at night dreaming of all the things you can do with your rig....as new insight presents itself....I speak from experience... ;D :big:

Make sure your having fun Kermit....that's important.

Dave


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## Kermit (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm always having fun, but sometimes I hurt to much to enjoy the fun.

Thank you for all the support and encouragement Steamer, and Joe d. I am in your debt. 

So anyway, today is wednesday. Which is a 'raw material' order day. Should I get anything else with the order besides the endmill for making the slots in the rotor?

Let me know if you think of something I might need here,
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Aug 26, 2009)

A goodly length of magnet wire? ;D

BC1
Jim


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## Kermit (Aug 26, 2009)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> A goodly length of magnet wire? ;D
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Got that. and if I need a different size I go to  http://www.magnet4less.com/   specifically ; http://www.magnet4less.com/index.php?cPath=9_20&osCsid=cda5250325ef4dfc53ed2fe7e9e2446e

I may end up needing a different size than what I have. I haven't done any calculations on this little genny for voltage output.


How about anything for the *lathe* work I might have missed?


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

I have the endmills now. 

Whether I use it for this or not, I have ordered a slitting saw and arbour, as well. What I need to know from those experienced and willing to answer; is *which one would you use? endmill or slotting saw.*

Remember its a paper/epoxy material, not metal.


Hoping for more than one opinion,
Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 3, 2009)

Drawing of part?
 ;D
Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

Hasn't everybody downloaded and studied every drawing pdf I've ever put in a topic?








I hope it looks as good as this one when I'm done.  
Oh, and, the dimenisions for the slot are 1/8 inch wide and deep.

Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 3, 2009)

1/8" plus or minus what?

If your just blasting a slot through, a two flute endmill and a indexer would be my choice for the slots

You could also use a 1/8" wide saw, but they can be expensive

Bore the ID
Mount part on temporary mandrel
Turn OD to size.
Mount mandrel/part on indexer
Mill slots..Whats the material? Bakelite?...or G10/G11?  

G10 is nasty...and can be hazardous to your health to say nothing of the abrasive nature of the dust to machines and cutters.....hope it's bakelite ;D

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

I have the 1/8 endmill, two flute, solid carbide.

I will have an 1/8 inch slitting saw and arbor by end of the work day as well.

Yes, it is Garolite. Not the G10/11 variety but the LE version which is paper versus cotton cloth as the base. Hopefully not as toxic but it smells just like printed circuit board material when it gets hot.

The part is already bored, as I bought it as a piece of tubing








The ends for it have already been done, with your most helpful suggestions.






Another machinist here at work suggested the end mill as well. He says because the saw blade will load up fairly quickly and might ruin the dimensions of the side walls. Which I don't have alot of play with dimensions. The side walls for the slots will be about .083 inches at their thickest and taper to about .067 at the base. They'll be pretty easy to muck up.

The slots tolerance can be anything close or under .0126 but not over it.

Thanks for the attempts at help,
Kermit


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## Alan J. Richer (Sep 3, 2009)

Re: Endmill vs. slotting saw:

What about (instead) a horizontal milling cutter? Seems to me that that is a LOT less likely to load up and ruin your day, as the teeth/gullets are much larger. They're not at all expensive and I've used them in plastics work before to good effect.

              Alan


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

This is my mill.


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## arnoldb (Sep 3, 2009)

Kermit, I don't see how you have any option except the milling cutter - unless you can mount the workpiece in the vertical slide and have enough space on it in front or at the back, as well as enough vertical clearance movement on the vertical slide to cut the slots using the slitting saw... - if you clamp the workpiece in the vice, you cannot cut through the center at top or bottom, as the center line will be in the jaws, unless you have something else in mind for holding the workpiece... OK, you could, depending on dimensions needed, clamp the piece vertically - and use up/down to cut the slots on the front or back - but everything depends on the size of the workpiece and whether you have enough travel. A lot also depends on the size of the saw you ordered.

For using the milling cutter, Id venture a rough "guess" that you'd need at least 3000 RPM for the cutter speed - does your lathe go up that high ?

Very intriguing problem you have here....

Regards, Arnold


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## steamer (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

You'll get by with running the cutter slow, if you feed slow.  What you need is an indexer for your rig.....Do you have a 25 or 50 tooth gear?

You can do it with what you have, but your going to have to rig up an indexer of some kind really....especially with the tolerances you talking about.


Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

2.02 inches long. Supposed to be 2.00 inches. Close enough for me as its not a critical dimension.  






1 7/8 inches OD. 1 1/2 inches ID.  3/16 wall thickness.






MY choice of setups this time out. The saw center line is at the top of the cylinder and the mill vise is at the bottom of its travel. I got lucky with that. one more 1/16th and it would be to tall to do in one pass this way.










OR should I try to make them in multiple passes? I'll have all the gibs on the lathe tightened up real good, and I'll be feeding with the milling attachment thread. Which is set pretty tight after I lapped it smooth. All things I found were needed in order to cut without vibration.  I do plan on cutting a piece of sacrifical scrap from the tube for educational/destructive purposes. So I ask; Multiple passes with the saw doing 30 or 40 thou or one slow pass at full 1/8 depth?

indexing can come after I have 4 slots at 90 deg. I can do that simply. Then I just need a jig that will index me 15 deg from a slot; use it in all four slots, reset jig to one of the newly made slots, then repeat till done. At least that is my vision at this point in time. It is apt to change depending on the direction and consensus from all you; my inspirational engine building leaders and teachers. (blatant attempt at brown-nosing)  

Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 3, 2009)

Kermit,

Mighty brave way to index 24 slots

Your logic is perfect, but for one thing...stack tolerance.

I am afraid that after you do successive indexing, you accumulated error will be pretty big. My guess is far too big.

Try it on a round of maple or some other hard wood first and see how far you get......I'll do some digging on my end.

....as we drift into uncharted territory! ;D I love it when I do that ;D


Dave



OOOPS 24 slots ......miscounted....


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## Kermit (Sep 3, 2009)

Assuming I can put slots perfectly opposite each other I should be able to get a slot every 45 deg around the tube. That just leaves two 15 deg offsets from the 45 degree slots. So whatever error I have on my offset is only doubled, being reset to zero when I reposition to another 45 degree slot.

I made a quick sketch


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## steamer (Sep 3, 2009)

Sent you a PM......

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 4, 2009)

Lots of new angles to work out yet... 

So. Sew. Needle pulling thread and whatnot. I went ahead an cut off a matching piece for experimental purposes and got it mounted up. Played with my dial indicator for what seemed like ages befor I finally got the top and bottom of the tube reading the same. Perfect vertical alignment achieved, I repostioned the belt on the head stock and cranked 'er up to about 2000 RPM. Never had the chuck spin that fast before. I have lots of little grease spots in an arc about the room now.  ;D.  

Moved in for a slice and it acted and sounded like cutting hard butter. Not even a bad smell of overheating to be detected. So I dialed in the full .125 inches and started my cut.














So far I'm very happy with this set up. Now for the head scratching and eventual jig making for doing 15 degree offsets ???


Good progress for a lazy Friday afternoon. Time for bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 4, 2009)

I was thinking about my two fairly accurate triangles. a 30-60-90 and a 45-90-45.

The difference (or sum) leaves me 15 degrees. 
which brings me to my jig idea. Somebody pipe in if they see a better way to set this up without a rotary anything... 

Looking down from above I have drawn my idea for the jig with offsets for 30 and 45 deg. That should let me cover every angle needed on this rotor.


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## steamer (Sep 4, 2009)

Well ...without a "rotary anything", I can't think of one...

The best way to learn how is to do...so have at it, Give it a whirl and see where you get.....Your not violating any laws of physics, and its not illegal or fattening.....give her a shot.

I'll sketch up a indexer concept for you if it don't....if it does I'll have a beer with ya instead! ;D

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 4, 2009)

whoa, I'm still not used to running the lathe at this highspeed! It seems to take forever to whind up to its whistling sound. Leaving me many seconds to wonder about my tightening job on that chuck. 



I've gotten a bit more done. 4 slots now on the test piece. Enough to let me test out the jig idea.

I need a refill on this little bottle of elbow grease, or access to the nurse.   "Honey" 8)

Goodnight Austin Texas; wherever you are!!!
(Kermit blows kisses to the audience and smashes his guitar on the stage)


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## Noitoen (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi.

I've picked up this thread just recently and haven't had a chance to go through all the posts. My small workshop deals with electric motor and generator repair so I like the theme. Back to the part, you could make it a little longer so that you can have a little "un-machined" area to part off later and clamp the part to a 24 or 48 tooth gear to use as index. scratch.gif


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## Kermit (Sep 5, 2009)

Update: 4 slots in the test piece. Max. Deviation between slots. .012  To small to see with the eye on a 2 inch circle. My method for doing 90 deg slots proved successful. If I use a better surface than the bottom of the vise currently provides me, I'm sure I could improve those deviation measures.





Welcome to my mess Noitoen. 

The two inches length is just barely short enough for my vise to carry the part evenly across the blade. Any more length and I'd not be able to cut the slot end to end.

The idea for using a gear is a very good one though. I'm just very unclear on how I would fit anything else in the vise with the tube and still make the cut all the way through.

I don't think things very far ahead in this hobby because I don't have the experience to see any further ahead than the part right in front of me. ;D

Please stick around and enjoy the circus. Clowns should show up soon ;D

Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 5, 2009)

Soaking up the coffee. While I do, I thought it might be good to revisit some design images






I haven't updated the drawing with the new slot size yet.


Glorious day,
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Sep 5, 2009)

Hiya Kermit. I have a 'solution' of sorts that may be of use to you in accurately making the slots you are wanting to achieve. I hope that this explanation will be easy enough to follow along and better yet understand :big: What I propose is this: turn a small spigot, the inside diameter of your future armature on the long side of a flat metal bar that will be clamped in the mill vise. The bar or plate should be larger than the OD of your armature. At this same time drill and tap central hole to be used by a capture bolt. Are you with me so far?  Now, use a protractor or a set of dividers to accurately lay out datum lines at 90* and also at 15*. Measure out from the center point of the spigot far enough that a locator pin would engage the slot when the slot was cut to depth, and drill and press in a small peg the width of the slot at the 15* mark. Man I hope this makes some sense. Now, after the first slot has been cut in the part, this plate with the locator peg is placed in the vise, the armature is placed onto the spigot with the slot engaging the peg and the piece is the held down by the previously mentioned clamp bolt. The next slot is cut and the armature is unbolted, rotated until the next slot is engaged on the pin, the clamp bolt tightened up again, the next slot cut and the whole process repeated until all of the slots have been cut. If the initial location of the peg has been accurately carried out all of the slots should wind up (no pun intended there) ;D exactly the same. Quick and easy indexing at its finest. If everyone understands any/all of this than I am sure that there are modifications that can be done but the basic concept is there. Good Luck Kermit, this project is starting to take on a life of its own. Thanks.

BC1
Jim


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## Noitoen (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi.

I've gone through the posts (drawings and pictures) and have a question. Is it a three phase AC generator (alternator) or a DC one? Since you have a 2 pole field system, which is separated 180º from each other, the rotors coils should have the same amount of poles. The output frequency of a AC generator is directly related to the RPM's and number of poles. In Europe we have 50Hz so on a 4 pole machine, the engine must run at a fixed 1500 rpm (1800rpm for 60Hz), generating 2 frequency cycles at each revolution. Those ancient generators on the initial posts, achieve the same frequency at a much lower speed. The 8 pole one, must run on 750 rpm.


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## steamer (Sep 5, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

Here's what I was thinking......

















The orange block mounts in your tool post.

The yellow disk is 7.639" in diameter and is made of plywood......you then take a peel and stick measuring tap from one of the woodworking supply stores and put a 24" long piece all around the OD of the wood index disk

The arm with the tool makers clamp looking thing is just that, and arm with a tool makers clamp on the outboard end. Attached to the side of the clamp and not shown is a little bent piece of plastic with a small colored groove in it. If you index every inch, you will have 24 divisions. Every half inch 48 divisions, every quarter inch, 96 divisions...ect.

These tape markings are good to +/- .002"  Your eye and the plastic reticle I described above will probably on be as good as 1/64...though perhaps with experience you will get better...in any case, 1/64" at that radius is 0.20 degrees error....plenty good enough for your project.

The arbor is located in a V block you make with a single flute countersink bit.  I've done it and it works just fine. It's good to mill a slot first to give the cutter some end relief.  Doing it this way puts the V directly in line with the lathe spindle. EXACTLY.

Now the block on the other side of the arbor is a clamp that locks the arbor before a cut is put on. It is held on with two threaded studs and nuts. Tio index the arbor, loosen one nut and then the index arm clamp.  Move the index to the next cut, lock the index arm clamp and then the arbor clamp

The other end of the arbor is turned to fit the ID of your part to be cut just like the arbor we made before..

Very Importanat, turn your wooden disk while mounted on the arbor.  Then it is concentric.

You could build this in a weekend or less.....when you done making the part, put a metal disk on the arbor and make up an index plate.

Solved a problem and made some useful tooling to boot!

Just a thought.

Dave


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## steamer (Sep 5, 2009)

oh and the index arm is held on with one bolt on the side of the orange block. Once in position and tight....DON"T MOVE THE ARM ABOUT THE BOLT!

Just loosen the clamp....and turn the disk.
Put the reticle on the fixed side of the clamp too....not the loose side.

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 5, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hi Kermit,
> 
> Here's what I was thinking......
> 
> ...



Steamer, you have done it again. I initially said I didn't understand you reference to 7.639 inches in diameter.
I've got it now.  

You have filled in a missing piece and NOW I know how I'm gonna tackle this one.

You're right about the 1/64th being good enough for my project. Currently, my measurements show I'm in the 1/48 to 1/50 range on the test piece. Even that is close enough that it cannot be seen by the unaided eye. I'm aiming for 1/100th or thereabouts. what I think you guys call 10 thousanths. If I could achieve that I'd be very pleased with myself.



			
				Noitoen  said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I've gone through the posts (drawings and pictures) and have a question. Is it a three phase AC generator (alternator) or a DC one? Since you have a 2 pole field system, which is separated 180º from each other, the rotors coils should have the same amount of poles. The output frequency of a AC generator is directly related to the RPM's and number of poles. In Europe we have 50Hz so on a 4 pole machine, the engine must run at a fixed 1500 rpm (1800rpm for 60Hz), generating 2 frequency cycles at each revolution. Those ancient generators on the initial posts, achieve the same frequency at a much lower speed. The 8 pole one, must run on 750 rpm.



I'm making this a three phase machine by dividing the winding into three groups. Three phases make a much steadier DC voltage when rectified than a single phase AC current will. The AC outputs will be picked up on ring terminals with standard brush equipment. No commutators in this project. Instead I'll be using some big fat triac's with a diode self trigger and add some capacitance for filtering. Presto-instant DC output generator. Going further, I could put in a 7405 or 7412 regulator and further steady my output. Those are good for about 1 amp of current which should be the max this little genny will put out.  As long as the genny can keep the voltage above the set regulation voltage the silicon based components will give a steady DC.  

Hope that answers your questions,
Kermit


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## Noitoen (Sep 6, 2009)

For a three phase 2 pole machine 2 groups of 2 coils each with 10-12 pitch for the 24 slots you have, the you can connect it in a series/delta way to get three phase. 

If you look at some of the small angle grinder's (burnt) armature you will see a 12 slot core that can easily used in a small generator project. I've collected some to attempt the build of a (not so small) brushless model engine. http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/LRK350/index_eng.html


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## steamer (Sep 6, 2009)

HI Kermit,

Ah yes 1/64 at that index plate radius...at the radius of your work piece it will SIGNIFICANTLY smaller. 1/64 is 0.01562.  Your work piece is about 2" diameter......The error in your part would be proportionally smaller or 
2/7.639 x .01562 or  0.004" inches at the workpiece. 

Additionally, you could set up and cross drill a shaft exactly on center in about 5 minutes with the same setup...mount the shaft to be cross drilled in the orange block and clamp it in. Put the drill in the lathe chuck and off you go. If you want the cross drill at an angle, turn the tool post to the angle before you drill.

Dave

...by the way..7.639 is the diameter of a circle with a circumference of 24" inches....


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## bearcar1 (Sep 6, 2009)

The very same setup using a degree wheel that is used for dialing in the camshaft timing of car and truck engines would accomplish the same thing without having to resort to any mathematical formulas. They cost very little (unless you get the etched metal versions) and they are quite accurate.

BC1
Jim


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## Kermit (Sep 6, 2009)

Noitoen  said:
			
		

> For a three phase 2 pole machine 2 groups of 2 coils each with 10-12 pitch for the 24 slots you have, the you can connect it in a series/delta way to get three phase.
> 
> If you look at some of the small angle grinder's (burnt) armature you will see a 12 slot core that can easily used in a small generator project. I've collected some to attempt the build of a (not so small) brushless model engine. http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/LRK350/index_eng.html



I think you're describing a distributed wave winding. mine will be simpler, just four windings paralleled and then the next four, then the next four. I've got loads of 30gauge magnet wire, but thats small stuff. Lots of measuring and prewinding work to do. So this plan might change as well.  ;D   

It's a very plastic build so far, but once its done I'll have something more concrete to commit to paper as far as plans go.  


Flying by the seat of my pants and loving it,
Kermit

I'll look further into the wave windings and see if these might prove easier in the


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## John S (Sep 6, 2009)

Ignore me if i don't know what I'm talking about but don't the slots have to be unequal numbers so it can't get stuck / parked ?

John S.


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## Kermit (Sep 6, 2009)

No, no problem. Good question. I don't think it really matters with generators, but motors would be different animals in this respect.

I believe that using an odd number of slots is just one of the criteria for certain type of windings. The two major types are closed coil and open coil windings, and these are broken down further into wave and ring, with various other variations among them as well. 

In the genny as I have proposed winding it so far, there are four coils in a 60 degree arc that will be placed electrically in parallel even though the inside and outside coils will differ in voltage by a small amount, this will lower voltage output and increase current output. If I made them groups of different numbers of coils then I could have 4 phases, or 12 phases if each coil was individually connected. Eight phases is also a factor but cannot be done in a balanced way with the winding scheme I'm planning now.


Hope some of that made sense,
Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 6, 2009)

Math involved

Circumference of a circle = PI x diameter of disk......rearranging

Circumference / Pi = diameter of disk

( 24"      ) / (3.14159) = 7.639"


Timing disk would work too Bearcar1, but you may have a tough time with fractions of a degree. 24 is even, but 48 and 96 (3.75 deg) are not. Don't know how they are layed out, so I can't really comment

Additionally, Make the disk as large as you can, as it will reduce the error in the part.....Your part would have half the error if the disk was 15.278 in diameter and you indexed every 2 inches for instance.

Better have a big lathe though ;D

If you wanted to make a series of index plates, start with a large disk and turn it down as you go....

This method was taught to me by an old clockmaker....though I can't say I know him personally. I really admire his ingenuity.

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 13, 2009)

Constrained to stay small by the proximity of the 2000 RPM Chuck... 

I have procured an $8, 1ft sq. piece of black garolite, 3/16 thick and a $5 one, 1/16 thick. I will turn a portion of the 3/16 one down to a disc 7.643 inches in dia. and cut it down into two quarter sized pieces with 1 inch offsets. I think I can get two out of it. This will be a simple(not necessarily for me) fit'n'fixture setup and will stay in the vise while machining. I'll use a triangle of 1/8 thick garolite, made from two 1/16 thick pieces glued together. This will give me a clearly visible center line. Insert the angled piece into a previously machined slot so that the long taper tip points outward toward the diameter and align with a paper tape ruler as suggested by Steamer.

plan as viewed from above. 






More photos soon,
Kermit


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## zeeprogrammer (Sep 13, 2009)

Read the thread again. This is a really neat project.
I hadn't realized it was that small.
What will you be doing with it?


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## Kermit (Sep 13, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...What will you be doing with it?



 :-\  Uhmmmm, I don't know!

Would make a nice 'load' for a steam engine, no? (Hear that Brian?) ;D


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## Kermit (Sep 13, 2009)

Raw material prep.

3/16 thick Garolite 12" x 12" reduced to 7.75" sq on the table saw. Slight chipping even with two layers of blue masking tape on the 40 tooth combo blade. All will be removed soon.







two 4" x 6" pcs. of 1/16 thick Garolite glued together with a sheet of white paper between. Same tablesaw with two layers of tape. Not as much chipping this time. 






Boy, that wore me out! Time for a break.  
Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 14, 2009)

Absolute and total failure. The glue did not hold. Yellow type construction glue. I guess my big mistake was to assume that this material would be in anyway similiar to wood products like hard pressboard and mdf

I have mixed up some old fashioned clear epoxy and prepared the board surface by lightly sanding and degreasing with MEK. (similiar to Acetone)... The epoxy has a 2hr working time, so I'm letting it sit for a few, before I redo my clamping.

I'm feeling like I could have started this all with the words 'dear diary'.  

Alright, then. Round two with glue. Making it thicker by using some sticker... (better stop there) 

Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 14, 2009)

Garlock is a bearing material, and is loaded with carbon. I hope epoxy works

MDO (f) or plywood would be a better choice, about 3/4" thick.

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 15, 2009)

The epoxy has held. It is actually an encapsulation/potting compound and is holding very well.

Some glued up raw material being test fit.  Nice and gentle press fit into the 1/8 inch slots. I think these will finish up real nice Steamer. 






More than I need for this jig, but 1/8 stock with a white center line seems like it might be handy for other projects.

*Garolite Grades and Composition*

Garolite with PTFE?? Hmmmm... ;D
Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 15, 2009)

Dear Diary,
The thin paper line is clearly visible after a quick sanding to get the epoxy off the edge. I feel good that 'one' of my plans has worked out as well as it could have. Albeit a small victory, at this point I take any I can get. 
Time to tear down my saw set up and put the face plate on the lathe, in prep for turning the base material for my jig. I'm going slow here on purpose, as this gives me time to make plans for how this jig can be used for more than just this one project. 

Perhaps that is more Chess than this Checker player can handle, ;D
Kermit


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## steamer (Sep 15, 2009)

Hi Kermit,

Trying to follow along.....what are we building now?

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 15, 2009)

Still working on "the jig" as sketched in a few frames up.

This is just a piece that will be inserted in a previously cut slot and will extend from there to the outside circumference (the edge) where the tape measure will be located. The white center line will be just that and act as a marker for positioning. 

The reason I have four is from cutting them and finding out the first glue did not hold. ;D


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## Kermit (Sep 18, 2009)

More continental drift. After many aeons of time the situation has evolved and parts have revolved.  






Metal clamping tools damage the surface of these black garolite parts because it is so brittle. Enter three sewing thread spools. Cored out on the drill press with a 1/2" Forstner bit. All the nuts are covered on the bottom with masking tape as well.






A light rub with 220 grit sandpaper removed the burrs along the edges of the center recess. 






Well look at all those circular scratches! Looks like a record album. Makes me want to fire up the record player...Kermit sings his greatest hits.  ;D


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## Kermit (Sep 18, 2009)

Dear Diary,
I don't like it.

It's Too Round!







There that's better.


Test fit the rotor shell.






Well, what do you know, it fits! ;D


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## Kermit (Sep 18, 2009)




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## Kermit (Sep 18, 2009)

Finished. Ready for service. Now if only the workshop was clean and ready to go... 






I'm gonna clean up and tear down my rig and put the 4 jaw back up with the slitting saw centered up in it. Ready to go at it tomorrow.


What was I building again?
Kermit


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## RobWilson (Sep 18, 2009)

Looking good Kermit Thm: very interesting post 

Regards Rob


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## Kermit (Sep 20, 2009)

up and down. up and down.  Manual Lathe attachment? Wrist torture for an old man is more like it.  

About half way done with the rotor shaping. I made some pretty ugly cuts in the practice piece while I learned to use the dividing jig I made. It isn't user friendly, but once I got used to using the jig, it seems to be quite accurate.

Here is the progress for today.






Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 20, 2009)

Any suggestions of a good treatment for sore muscles?

My forearm is screaming in pain with every move of my hand or fingers. It is all due to twisting the travel screw knob on that lathe milling attachment all day long yesterday.

Better yet would be a cure for the smoothness of travel on the attachment while keeping it tight enough to stop the twisting movement while in use. 

To sore to start,
Kermit


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## mklotz (Sep 20, 2009)

> My forearm is screaming in pain with every move of my hand or fingers. It is all due to twisting the travel screw knob on that lathe milling attachment all day long yesterday.
> 
> Better yet would be a cure for the smoothness of travel on the attachment while keeping it tight enough to stop the twisting movement while in use.



It looks to me like you're using a Palmgren milling attachment. I have one of those and used it extensively before I bought a mill.

I made two improvements to it that made it much less onerous to use.

The knob used to effect the up/down movement is way too small in diameter. I fitted it with an aluminum ring approximately 2+ inches in diameter. This reduces the force you need to apply with your hand. Also, to this ring I added a speeder handle so I could rotate it quickly when making larger height adjustments.

[Aside: Even better than a speeder handle would be to fit it with an interface to a handheld, battery-powered electric screwdriver. I did that to the longitudinal axis on my Unimat and it works wonderfully.]

I replaced the gib screws with three shop made thumb screws so I could conveniently reduce the pressure on the gib when moving the slide.

A lathe milling attachment will always be a compromise but, with the suggested improvements it will be easier to use.

IMO, milling attachments are responsible for more milling machine sales than any other inducement.


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## Kermit (Sep 20, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> IMO, milling attachments are responsible for more milling machine sales than any other inducement.



 :big:

Thank you Marv, I have no doubt you're right on this one! 

I too, had looked at that knob and wished for a small hex rod extension on top of it, so I could chuck it up in my battery powered Ryobi Drill. The simpler, larger round wheel idea, never even occured to me.  

Wishing for my RF45 mill even harder now,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 20, 2009)

Something almost as good as the mill arrived.

My Son! A fresh wrist to sacrifice to the twisting gods... :-\

 :big:  He can take it! 

I did the one handed wrestling job with the jig and lined things up; he assisted by cranking the vise up and down. (It was new enough to him that he actually enjoyed it) Shhhhh... 

Here is the pictorial synopsis





















Time for some Sweet Iced Tea 8)
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Sep 20, 2009)

AHA! *FINALLY* the light bulb in my head lit up :noidea: ;D I was trying to figure out where you were going during the later portion of this thread and NOW I understand!! Gees Louise, I was going nuts. The KISS : method is a true winner, your armature looks great, well done!!


BC1
Jim


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## Kermit (Sep 20, 2009)

Well, I thought it was obvious where I was.  

Lost in the underbrush but close enough to smell the hamburgers cooking. So I hack away at the overgrowth and create my own path to the picnic...

Clear as Mud ever was,
Kermit


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## Krown Kustoms (Sep 20, 2009)

The indexing jig is priceless, I have already came up with a few things I could use it for, One of my million hobbies is high power rocketry, I use something similar to allign fins.
I have built a few generators but I have a feeling this one will be a lot nicer than any of mine.
-B-


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## steamer (Sep 20, 2009)

OK....now I get it...

Glad it worked out for you Kermit.

Dave


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## Kermit (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for following along with me. Or trying too! I didn't know everyone, but me, had gotten lost on my "jig" excursion.  

At this point I'm sorely tempted to keep working on this rotor, First would be to pack it with iron fillings, magnetic sand. Then seal and close it. The shaft has to be inserted before the insides are filled. 

However I need to use the shaft to set the alignment of the axle supports and bearing housings. Putting it all together with the iron inside would make it a true pain in the rear around those strong magnets. So I'll set up the stuff that hold the rotor shaft before I finish it.

I am going to be getting the copper wire for it soon, and I'm still working out the winding scheme. The 30AWG magnet wire I said I had turns out to be 38AWG. Big difference! I may go with 28 gauge wire. The gauge and length of the wire determine voltage. Field strength determines voltage, and RPM's determine voltage. So everything in the generator has a noticeable effect on the voltage developed. 

I want to be able to charge a 12V battery with this little jewel, so I'll have lots of wire loops in parallel to increase current, but I'll still need to keep the wire small enough to have enough serial length to get up to 12V. It will be interesting to see how close I can get to 12V on my first try. ;D That's right! To do this properly I'll need to be prepared to tear it all out and do it over with either smaller wire or with more windings in parallel. 

Thanks again to everyone who has helped along way. Next stop will be two stanchions of some sort, for support of the center shaft. Two bearings will used. Roller pin type. Since I've got two of those.  ;D


Kermit

Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 24, 2009)

Found a 2 foot length of 2024. 1 1/4 by 2.  I cut off two 4inch long pieces and brought them with me to work.

I guess you know what comes next. ;D  Two main bearing supports. I like to call them stanchions. I decided to add a little angle to the faces for artistic reasons. The two rectangles standing there like those black monoliths in that movie2001. Way to overpowering next to the shorter generator frame.


Kermit 

View attachment Genny_Main Bearing supports.pdf


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## Kermit (Sep 24, 2009)

Hot off the presses - so to speak.  

Raw material.










The resulting part after its date with the mill... 





With some other parts for scale... 










The bearing will be a press fit. Mostly because it doesn't go in by hand! ;D



I don't have any pics of the processes on the big old Bridgeports at work. Sorry. It is kind of hard to explain a camera in the machine shop of a defense contractor at my current paygrade.   I don't want the hassle or the attracted attention to my use of shop time. 

enuff said.

Kermit


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## CrewCab (Sep 24, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> The bearing will be a press fit. Mostly because it doesn't go in by hand! ;D



The above quote ;D ........... plus the bit about the job / camera / pay grade etc really made my day Kermit, I did laugh out loud ........... thanks ..........  ;D

Frivolity aside for the moment, good thread, very enjoyable, particularly impressed with the indexing of the rotor ....... that's a first class job :bow:  it is nice to get a little payback from the kids now and again though ain't it 8)

CC


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## Krown Kustoms (Sep 24, 2009)

I would love to find a piece of raw that size- well any size.
I have steel like that but I have trouble picking it up, and no way of cutting it.
Looking good I like the supports.
-B-


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## Kermit (Sep 26, 2009)

Have to come up with a dimensioned dwg., but first I need an idea of what I'm building should look like.

I've come up with a few and would welcome suggestions from other members on artistic aspects, or anything else you see fit to impart... 

Here is a close up from my quick sketch showing the brushes and brush support






The whole generator as I currently have it envisioned is in the uploaded .pdf I think the brush holders will end up being my waterloo! ,
Kermit 

View attachment Genny_prototype 1.pdf


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## Krown Kustoms (Sep 26, 2009)

If I see it correctly your commutator is three solid rings around the shaft, you will have to insulate the wires going to the outer 2 rings somehow under the others since they are coming from the center (armature).

A split ring comm and brushes in a 60 degree seperation might be simpler.

Still I am not sure I am looking at the drawing correctly (forgive me if I am way off), and there may be a easy way to wire up the way you show.
I hope I have helped at least a little bit
-B-


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## Kermit (Sep 26, 2009)

Any way in which I can avoid having to seperate and insulate those copper rings is better than one in which I don't.  ;D

Yeah I'll have to cut a keyway under the outside two rings and epoxy the wires into it. 

My plan is to "hide" six high power silicon diodes on the generator and rectify the three phase AC directly. The binding posts I'll put on it will give pulsing DC just like a commutator, but no sparks! 

I've inspected my share of motor/generator sets and I'm positive when I say making a commutator of any simplexity is more difficult than any number of pick up rings. Not that I don't want to try it eventually, but I don't want it stopping me right now, while I'm learning my tools and machine.

Hope that clears up any questions on the output of the genny.

Kermit


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## Kermit (Sep 28, 2009)

I discovered that not just any old 1.5 inch piece of metal will work as a spacer for my field poles.  So, I'm making up some aluminium dummy magnets to use during assembly and alignment. 

Next, I'm gonna tackle the filling of the rotor with iron powder epoxy, and get it closed up on a short garolite axle. I'll have to join the garolite with the brass rod, or perhaps with a steel rod. I'm not sure yet. I have a feeling the brass rod would wear down too fast where it contacts the roller bearings. Perhaps just an outer race of hardened steel to fit on the garolite axle would be easier. It's going slow without a 'plan' to follow.

Hopin for more suggestions,
Kermit





View attachment Genny_Dummy Magnet Assy.pdf


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## Kermit (Sep 28, 2009)

I created a dimensioned drawing showing all the major parts and mounting positions.
Nothing else accomplished so far. 







The raw material for the rotor build up is here, but I'm not ready yet... :-[  Whole family has had the flu and seems it is my turn to experience the joy of viral invasion. 

It's making my joints hurt more than they ever have up till now. Ouch!
Kermit 

View attachment Genny_prototype 2.pdf


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## Kermit (Oct 1, 2009)

The iron powder/paste is actually more of a dry sand mortar consistency. Wet enough to form a ball when closed in your hand, but it would break up if poked with a finger.
mix ratio.
1.5 liq. oz. of epoxy + 10 oz. of powdered iron fillings.

Whatever


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## Krown Kustoms (Oct 1, 2009)

Where do you get iron filings that fine?
Did you make them?
-B-


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## Kermit (Oct 1, 2009)

Purchased at an educational toy store.

Check google for iron filings for sale.


I clipped the first returns shown, out of about 50,000.


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## Krown Kustoms (Oct 1, 2009)

I didnt think they would be that popular.
-B-


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## mu38&Bg# (Oct 1, 2009)

Iron filings of this type are really not much better than a solid iron core. The epoxy does not insulate the particles so it's just one lump of iron. The proper material is a fine iron powder, but each particle is coated with an insulator of some sort. google "SMC powder".


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## Kermit (Oct 1, 2009)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> Iron filings of this type are really not much better than a solid iron core. The epoxy does not insulate the particles so it's just one lump of iron.



I went to the shop and retrieved my meter "just to be sure".

Wrong, my friend. Not a single lump of 1018 or 304 would read above 100 ohms on my meter. VERY LOW resistance.

Upon place the meter leads into pure iron powder as I have pictured above, the reistance reading was over 20 Meg Ohms, same with the dried lumps of epoxied iron powder material. The epoxy does nothing more than bind it all together, and is not an the sole source of high resistance. The iron powder is highly oxidized.  Compacted under pressure I doubt I could lower the resistance any lower than several 10's of kilo Ohms, and adding in the epoxies resistance when cured, current flow through the two types of cores-iron filings vs. solid metal would be at least 3 orders of magnitude difference and probably more than that.

Break down- solid core -wasteful
         iron filing core - very efficient.

I'd be glad to post pics or video of my meter and its readings on the above mentioned materials, if that is what it would take to have you believe me.  

If I have to do anything more than that to prove it. You'll just have to go though life thinking I have got it all wrong.  ;D   


Won't bother me if won't bother you.


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## arnoldb (Oct 1, 2009)

Kermit, I agree with you, though I would say the epoxy does have an insulating role in combination with the iron filings' oxidized layer. There is less surface area amongst the particles to conduct, as the epoxy inhibits that, and with oxidization on the parts of the particles that actually do make contact, resistance increases.


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## mu38&Bg# (Oct 1, 2009)

Won't bother you my friend. Carry on.


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## Kermit (Oct 3, 2009)

Carrying on then.  






I glued up the four pieces last night and will square up the side faces and slot it. Hopefully I'll be glueing on the top and bottom pieces by dinner time. Will drill a small pass through at the back of the slots for the braided cable connection of the brush to exit by. 

Still a long way to go,
Kermit


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## RobWilson (Oct 3, 2009)

Hi Kermit

Looking good Thm:

this may/probably is a dumb question , is the iron powder core , the same sort of principle as a laminated core ?  :hDe:


Regards Rob.


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## Kermit (Oct 3, 2009)

exactly. any conductor moving in a magnetic field will have electric currents induced in it. Breaking up the metal, breaks up the circulating electricity by isolating it and reduces it tendency to heat up the core. The core is still mostly iron though so the magnetic circuit is almost as happy with laminated, or powder cores as it is with solid iron cores. Just the wasteful heating of the electric currents are reduced.


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## RobWilson (Oct 3, 2009)

Cheers Kermit

so am i correct in thinking ,,,,,,,,,, if it was a solid core it would turn into an electric fire ?


Regards Rob


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## Kermit (Oct 3, 2009)

Not quite. But it would heat up considerably more than the motors and generators we are familiar with. 200-250 C would be quickly attained with constant use if there was a solid core and at that point the insulation on the copper wire would burn away and the working parts would short circuit. Cooling holes through the core and fanblade like attachments on the shaft were common in the days before laminated cores were used.


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 3, 2009)

Another fascinating thread that I've commented very little on. I just don't know what to say. I'm enjoying it a lot. And the amount of detail is great.


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## Kermit (Oct 4, 2009)

Found something this morning under a pile of iron scrap. Seems to be dry and nothing twisted too far out of position. A few minutes with a belt sander and I should have a useable part.


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## Kermit (Oct 4, 2009)

I can't seem to find the third brush anywhere.... ???


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## bearcar1 (Oct 4, 2009)

Maybe it decided to hide under that pile of iron scrap you started with this morning Rof}

BC1
Jim


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## steamer (Oct 4, 2009)

Maybe it was just hiding ;D

''''''Im not going in there and you can't make me!...."


Dave


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## Kermit (Oct 5, 2009)

Got the plans for Ray HasBrouck's engine number 6 today. Very nice set of drawings and a three page write up on machining steps.

I plan to scale it up to double size, meaning a 2.5 inch flywheel instead of 1.25 inch. Although double size may be to big scale wise for the genny. So it may end up less than double size, as is, its to small to look right driving the generator

Maybe I'll get this done in a few more years... :big:


Kermit


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## arnoldb (Oct 5, 2009)

Kermit, this build is really interesting, and going along well Thm:



> Maybe I'll get this done in a few more years...


Or maybe a lot sooner ! ;D

Regards, Arnold


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## Kermit (Oct 8, 2009)

Finally decided on a 150% scale up for the steam engine end of this genny.

I guess I'll have to start another build topic for it, so this one doesn't get any messier than it already is. :big:

I attached an overview of the engine as a pdf. 

Kermit 

View attachment HasBrouck #6.pdf


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## Kermit (Oct 14, 2009)

Things are gonna slow down even more than they already are.

Seems the grand-daughter wants a doll house for Christmas, and the wife wants me to build it for her.

Progress on my honey-do:






My progress on the steam engine/ generator build reached the start of the cylinder housing and stopped there. 

Cutting the raw material was a long process on the little bandsaw. After 20 minutes of cutting the motor was getting uncomfortably warm so I halted for the evening.





The next day I finished up with another 15 minutes of baby sitting in front of the saw.
The cut part was about 1/8 inch over sized all around, so it needed quite a bit of milling.





The drawing in the background shows dimensions for a 150% scale up but the part as cut is @ 200% the original dimensions. 2" by 2.5" by 4".







And that's the end of the action building engines for a few days.

Kermit


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## steamer (Oct 14, 2009)

You picked a great engine

Ray is a friend, and his stuff WORKS!!

You can trust the prints..

Dave


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## Kermit (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for replying Steamer. I think you are my one and only fan here.

I plan on making three of these #6 engines. One at print size, one at double size, and one at 150% size. By the time I get to the last one I'll be more confident about my machining of the parts.

I'm surprised no one had anything "funny" to say about the doll house.  

Hush up you, you had your chance ;D
Kermit


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 15, 2009)

Another fan here Kermit...and there's many more enjoying this thread. 

As for the doll house...I've wanted to build one since I was a kid and I still intend to build one.


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## Krown Kustoms (Oct 15, 2009)

Following right along
you cant run us all off at once.

As for the doll house, my daughter is about 5 months now and allready acquired about twenty dolls,
time for a place for them to live instead of shacking up in the crib that doesn't get used.

-B-


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## ozzie46 (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm following along Kermit, it's just that the only thing I know about electricity is THAT IT CAN KILL YOU.  :big: :big:


 Ron


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## Deanofid (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm watching too, Kermit. Just in lurker mode for this thread, since I know nothing about building 'lectrical stuff.


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## Kermit (Oct 16, 2009)

I tell everyone I'll be going slower on this build and THE VERY NEXT DAY, I make more parts.  ;D












Now back to the dollhouse, 8)
Kermit


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## steamer (Oct 17, 2009)

".....Now back to the dollhouse, 
Kermit"



OOOOh you tease so!.....hows the doll house coming?

I think you should build a 1/2 scale generater for the little engine and light up the doll house......if someone was asking.........hypothetically speaking......hint hint....

 ;D

Dave


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## Kermit (Oct 18, 2009)

The dollhouse is in a million pieces. ANd all of them need to be masked and primed.













Didn't think anyone here wanted to see me work with that 'soft brown stuff'. 
Kermit


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## Kermit (Oct 22, 2009)

The paint is still drying on the doll house, so I finished up the brush holder by drilling holes for the springs and one extra hole along the side for the copper wire connections.











My source for springs. Cheapest around @ worldwide megamart. One dozen for 7.95 and no shipping charge. 






Now, back to the grand-daughters Christmas gift.
Kermit


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## Kermit (Oct 24, 2009)

Took another break from priming and sanding this morning and went back to work on the brush holder and brushes.

Assembled tools and cleared out a work area.






Fishing copper wire through the holes was a fun diversion.  ;D Looks simple till you try it.






Soldered the wire ends to prevent them from splaying, and removed the spade end terminals











I discovered at this point that I needed to extend the hole in the side into an oval shape to allow freer movement of the braided wire. So I reached for the exacto knife.

  I fumbled while picking it up and stupidily grabbed for it.  I didn't catch it correctly. 






After bleeding on it for a second or two, everything went together easily.  











The brushes are free to move up and down and the cable feeds in and out of the holes smoothly.

Oh, and one more thing. The kiddie band aid turned out to have a picture of Bob The Builder on it. My wife got a chuckle out of that. :big:


Kermit


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## arnoldb (Oct 24, 2009)

Good going Kermit :bow: - except the knife-in-finger-bit of course


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## CrewCab (Oct 24, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> After bleeding on it for a second or two, everything went together easily.



So we now know blood can pass as an acceptable lubricant : ............. or not perhaps .........  

Great thread Kermit, enjoying every word, thanks 8)

CC


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## steamer (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey ah Kermit.....you shouldn't poke your finger with a knife.....its hard on the edge.....



 ;D


Glad it's not too bad....

Dave


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## Kermit (Oct 29, 2009)

UPDATE  10-29-09

Micro Mark MiniMill on sale $579 total w/shipping.  It's on its way to my door!  th_wav

I will eventually get the larger one, but in the last 3 months We've had something "come-up" every month and had to dip into the mill fund to cover it all, all three months. So instead of starting over trying to save up an additional $1000.00, I just went ahead and emptied the account to purchase the small mill.

The Web discount code is W77,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Oct 29, 2009)

Congratulations Kermit.  It's a good choice.

I'm sure you'll love it.


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## Kermit (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks Kermit. I'm sure it will make me happy.




Edit:

The steam engine started here has been given its own build thread
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6804.0


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## Jadecy (Oct 29, 2009)

Kind of off topic but on topic for several of your posts. I haven't looked at this thread in a little while and when I saw the doll house it made me laugh a little. That is the exact same dollhouse my wife and I built for my daughter last year. I think the least enjoyable part of the entire build was all the little wooden shingles.


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## Krown Kustoms (Oct 29, 2009)

GOOD CHOICE KERMIT, IM SURE YOU WILL LOVE IT. PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK FOR ME
I have a mini mill (same as the micro mark) and love it, it also converts to cnc easily.
-B-


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## Kermit (Dec 2, 2009)

I have moved the steam engine mentioned here to its own post and will post more on the doll house in another thread I haven't started just yet. So, in an effort to drag this large and cumbersome post back onto topic, I will post my current design for winding the generator rotor.

The wrap will be symmetrical to the axle, but each phase, will build on top of the phase laid down before it, so each one will be slightly longer on the ends of the rotor. 

Here is the idea with just the first phase shown.




Kermit 

View attachment rotor winding.pdf


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 6, 2009)

I opened the drawing you had...
The thought that went through my head was...

"How does he know how to do that?"

Maybe I missed it, maybe I don't remember, but...tell us again what brought you to designing and building such a neat thing.


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## Kermit (Dec 12, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I opened the drawing you had...
> The thought that went through my head was...
> 
> "How does he know how to do that?"
> ...



Every electronics course the USNavy had to offer was "offered" to me. (shoved down my throat)  I spent almost three years in schooling before ever even seeing the ocean. They also sent us through all the motor drive/director control electric courses that the Gunners had to take. I was a Firecontrolman for the Mk92 weapons system. A gun and missle Radar controlled firing and directing system.

I have no choice, but to know these things. I was a valuable 'tool' in the militaries arsenal of weapons.  ;D

Now I just eyeball everything to see that it is built 'to the print'. QC work. I'm used to working with my hands. twenty plus years as an electronics service tech on a variety of machines. Digital cinema, pharm dispensing robotics, TV station engineering, Satellite microwave communications, Telephone office RF to fiberoptic multiplexer installation. Even a short stint doing warranty repair of Delco and Philco car sound systems.  

Just want to get my hands dirty again. Invariably we fall back on the knowledge we have from which to build on, in new and different dirrections. An electrical generator is familiar to me in the "new" world of model engine building, or model engineering in general.

So, needle pulling thread, and all that, plus a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. :big:

Kermit

PS As long as I'm here. Why not put up the few photos of my meager progress over the holidays?

The mill stand/bench.
















The Doll House
interior walls




crown moulding









What am I doing in this forum?  ;D  :big:

Kermit


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 12, 2009)

From my perspective, that's a varied life that gave you many opportunities to learn and experience. Mine's been more boring...not that I'd trade it for anyone else's though. ;D



			
				Kermit  said:
			
		

> What am I doing in this forum?



Having fun! And teaching, inspiring, hopefully learning, mentoring,....

I'm sure I'm not the only one enjoying the house building.


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