# ER-16 Collets and Chuck



## Maryak (Feb 22, 2010)

Hi Guys,

 woohoo1

My collets and chuck from CTC Tools in Hong Kong arrived today. Nicely packed and appear to be of good quality.







The mainstream machinery houses in Oz are asking around $AU350 ??? ??? ???

CTC Tools price including shipping and insurance - $AU57.   

The service was courteous and prompt with the security of a paypal payment. I will certainly be dealing with them in future, Heine Johst was most helpful.

The usual disclaimer, I have no interest in CTC Tools, just a satisfied customer.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Twmaster (Feb 22, 2010)

That's really good to know Bob. I saw those on eBay and was worried about buying from an overseas vendor if a problem with the quality of the collets came up.

I want to fill in the gaps in the collet set on my ER spindled Taig mill.

Thanks!!


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## Maryak (Feb 22, 2010)

Mike,

I haven't offered them up to a machine yet but they look good and I'm feeling confident. I will know much more Thurs or Fri if I can escape the Honey Do List and make it to my shop. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## modeng2000 (Feb 22, 2010)

Hi Bob,

I bought an MR25 collet set and chuck for my lathe from the same source but have found that there is 0.02mm (0.00078") axis offset error which is just more than the published spec. I am considering of making a backplate for the collet chuck to be able to align it accurately. Other than this comment I think this source is good value for money.

I would suggest you check your chuck before you rely on it for accuracy although you might find yours is more accurate as it is a taper fitting.

John


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## don-tucker (Feb 22, 2010)

That's good news as I have just ordered a 3 MT er25 chuck from CTC ,was a bit doubtful.Hope it will be ready for my mill in 3 weeks time.
Don


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## Maryak (Feb 22, 2010)

John,

Thanks for your input. :bow:

I intend to check the chuck on the mill later this week.

My lathe headstock has an MT5 taper and I intend to make a male with a boss threaded to the chuck nut, an 11mm through hole and another internal taper to match the collets. Hopefully I can hold longer lengths up to 10mm diameter in the lathe.

Time will tell. 

I set off on the collet journey primarily to make a reasonable job of the valves in my Hit & Miss. I figured anything over 3/8" I have other ways of mounting and anything under 3/16" I have been using split copper pipe as a poor mans collet in my 3 jaw. 

At $350 it was not on; at $57 it should see me dancing with the stars.

Best Regards
Bob


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## New_Guy (Feb 22, 2010)

nice bargin Bob when you get them on the machine and test run out and repeatability can you post your results. it would be good to compare these with collets off the shelf at Hare and Forbs lol they are probably the same just the price


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## radfordc (Feb 22, 2010)

I bought a set from CDCO http://www.cdcotools.com/ 
You can find it under Die Maker Tools on the Collets & Accessories page.
It has a MT3 shank chuck and 8 collects for $49 plus shipping. I measured the TIR at less than .001".

Charlie


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 22, 2010)

Hi Bob. I see quite a bit of mention about the ER collet system you purchased. The set looks really nice.

I have a question: What is the advantage of this over using R-8 collets on a machine with an R-8 spindle? The set like Charlie got is very reasonable for the average "Joes" pocket. Should I consider adding this to my wish list?

-MB


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## Maryak (Feb 22, 2010)

MB,

Personally, one system is similar to another. The ER system is said to have the advantage of gripping the material over the full length of the collet. Most lathes have morse tapers in their head and tail stock and a morse taper is self gripping whereas I understand an R8 is not.

I my case this means the MT3 collet chuck and ER16 collets will fit the mill spindle and the tailstock of my lathe without making any adapters. 

I don't know enough about R8 to comment further.

NG, Yes I will post some results,

Charlie, Thanks for the encouraging words about your TIR

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks Bob. I thought you were getting this set up for you milling machine.

I have the MT-2 and MT-3 on my lathe.

I'm looking into the different ER sizes to get an understanding of what it entails. Seems there are a lot of different collet holder sizes like, ER-16, 25. 32, 40, and a few more. I currently use R-8 spindle mounted collets in my M/D.

I checked out your seller's web site and they offer a good amount of variety, along with well below average pricing. To bad the shipping cost to my location is a lot higher than normal.

Still might a good option tho.

-MB


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## raym 11 (Feb 22, 2010)

I have the ER-16 R-8 mount on my knee mill. This size takes me from .375 down to smaller than a # 60, that covers a lot of my work on my little engines.(I've seen an R-16 collet for sale that is one Imperial size larger than 3/8")

The ER-16 is easier to change collets than the R8 I go to for the larger tooling.
The ER-16 collets also fit the optional ER-16 spindle on my Taig mill, saving a bunch$$$ by not having to buy another set of collets.
Hope this helps somehow on this thread.

Ray Monahan


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## shred (Feb 22, 2010)

I use an ER-16 R8 holder on my mill a lot-- tool changes are easier and you can hold anything from 1/2mm to 10mm without any gaps.


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## New_Guy (Feb 22, 2010)

wow they have QCTP holders for $10!!! they are over $100 from scary forbs and other dealers over here i was thinking of doing over time and making some but hell i may just order them they really are handy if you have lots of them i only have 3


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## Deanofid (Feb 22, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> I have a question: What is the advantage of this over using R-8 collets on a machine with an R-8 spindle? The set like Charlie got is very reasonable for the average "Joes" pocket. Should I consider adding this to my wish list?
> 
> -MB



Rick, the main advantage of ER collets is they use a closer instead of a draw bar. If you have a collet closer on your headstock, ER collets will let you pass material right through them and out the back of the spindle. Not the case with tapered collets that rely on a draw bar in the center to pull them into the spindle. Then the material length is limited to where it bottoms out in the collet. 

This won't do you any good if you use a closer that is on a tapered stub that needs a draw bar, so it may not appeal to you, since you are already set up with R8.

Another advantage of ER collets is their clamping range. They are not limited to a small size difference for a given collet. You can clamp them down all the way until the slots are almost touching and they will not be damaged, so, a small set of collets will cover quite a large range of diameters.

My mill uses ER collets. Works very well. I like the system enough that I'm making a collet closer for my lathe.

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 22, 2010)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Rick, the main advantage of ER collets is they use a closer instead of a draw bar. If you have a collet closer on your headstock, ER collets will let you pass material right through them and out the back of the spindle. Not the case with tapered collets that rely on a draw bar in the center to pull them into the spindle. Then the material length is limited to where it bottoms out in the collet.
> 
> This won't do you any good if you use a closer that is on a tapered stub that needs a draw bar, so it may not appeal to you, since you are already set up with R8.
> 
> ...



Slowly starting to understand. On the lathe I use a 5C collet chuck, and material will pass through it, up to the size of the head stock bore diameter, which is about 3/4". An ER-16 chuck (in its place) with a 3-Mt to match the lathe spindle would require a draw bolt. Unless I can buy or make a see through closer to thread onto the outside of the threaded lathe spindle, kind of like the way a chuck backing plate does.

The ER-16 collet closer with a R-8 shank also requires a draw bar, just like a R-8 collet does in it place. Increasing the available size capacity on the mill is not needed. I have the basic R-8 (8 pc set) and added only a 3/16" for the very small end mill sizes, and need nothing more in between since this hold all the standard size end mill that I have, or have ever seen.

I'm missing the point as to where the market is, for this type of system, (ER).
Unless of course, you can get a set thru closer for a lathe. It isn't needed for a mill, but maybe for a lathe if you don't want a set of 5-C collets, or a collet chuck. You said the range is broader due to individual ranges within any given Er collet size, but the ER-16 is very limited and only goes up to 3/8", compared to the 5-C system that goes up to over an inch.

I,m just trying to get a better understanding of all these differant collet systems.

-MB


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## Deanofid (Feb 22, 2010)

> Unless of course, you can get a set thru closer for a lathe. It isn't needed for a mill, but maybe for a lathe if you don't want a set of 5-C collets, or a collet chuck. You said the range is broader due to individual ranges within any given Er collet size, but the ER-16 is very limited and only goes up to 3/8", compared to the 5-C system that goes up to over an inch.



Maybe it wasn't a very good explanation, Rick. 
The clamping range for an individual ER collet is larger than types like MT or 5C. Each ER collet has a clamping range of about .040". For 5C, I think it's about .010". So, for a given range of stock sizes you want to hold, you need fewer collets in the ER types.

ER-16 only goes up to 3/8". There are other ER series sizes besides 16, and you can pick the size that suits your machine or work holding needs. They go up to about an inch in the larger ER series collets, and if you have a collet closer on (not in) the lathe spindle, they will pass work through the spindle. 

If you already have 5C on your lathe, and all the collet sizes you need, you probably don't need anything else.  

Dean


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## Maryak (Feb 23, 2010)

Dean,

Thanks for your input. :bow: 

I too now have a much better understanding of the various collet systems and reasons for and against each.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2010)

Dean, Your explanation was good. I was just pointing out that the ER-16 collets only go up to a 3/8" size, a limitation that I felt was worth mentioning. I think Its the low cost and broader range of individual collets that's generating sales of the ER-16 system to beginners and home shop machinists. Specifically the owners of smaller machines. The pitfal could be in the future need to expand beyond the 3/8" limitation of the ER-16 system. This would require a larger closer and a whole new set of collets to cover the next range including the range already covered with the first purchase. Seem that this could become a very expensive system to expand on.
The 5c system seems to be a comparatively expensive proposition based on the large amount of available sizes, and the additional availability of square and hex sizes. However, the 5-C range is up to over 1" with a single closer or chuck. To get up to one inch in the ER system you would need the ER-40 collets and collet closer. The advantage with the ER-40 is the ability to hold stock that is out side the normal standard size range of materials. Since I haven't run into this situation as of yet, I can't see a large market for this (ER) system in the home shop environment. It would seem that on these rare occasions dealing with a bastard size material would simply be overcome with the use of a independent four jaw chuck. And a four jaw is something every one probably already has, or should have. 
I like the versatility that the 5-c system affords. With the availability of 5c 'collet blocks', 5C H/V table mount closers, 5C spin fixtures (Spindex) and others including better availability to inexpensively add additional sizes, it seems that the 5C system may be the way to go in my case.

I just wanted to get an idea of what the e ER system was, and how it compared to the other standard systems. I'm aware of the usefulness of the broader coverage that a single ER collet affords, but I don't feel its necessary in most cases. I'm sure that every body has good reasons for going with one or more of the ER systems. The bottom line is that, I think the ER-40 is a good system "instead of", rather than "in addition to" The 5C system I already have.

 In a moment of silliness I would buy them 'just because' I think the collets look so "cute". Someone please drag me back to reality!, :big:

-MB


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## mu38&Bg# (Feb 23, 2010)

I'm set up with 5C on the lathe and can handle the full 1 1/16" capacity through the headstock. It's nice except that I like to work with metric and I don't have a metric collet set yet. I'm tempted to go to an ER40 collet chuck that would thread onto the lathe spindle. That would still give me full through spindle capacity, and allow me to handle imperial and metric sizes without issue. Chances are pretty good I'll stay with 5C as I want to get a 5C HV collet indexer and a 5C chuck for the 4th axis on my mill. Metric collets (or emrgency collets) are just going to have to be invested in. Expanding collets are also available in 5C.

To me a MT to ER adapter for the lathe doesn't make much sense unless you're sure you'll never work on long parts. But, for $49 a set like Bob has would be well worth having around if you don't have any collets at all.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2010)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> I'm set up with 5C on the lathe and can handle the full 1 1/16" capacity through the headstock. It's nice except that I like to work with metric and I don't have a metric collet set yet. I'm tempted to go to an ER40 collet chuck that would thread onto the lathe spindle. That would still give me full through spindle capacity, and allow me to handle imperial and metric sizes without issue. Chances are pretty good I'll stay with 5C as I want to get a 5C HV collet indexer and a 5C chuck for the 4th axis on my mill. Metric collets (or emrgency collets) are just going to have to be invested in. Expanding collets are also available in 5C.
> 
> To me a MT to ER adapter for the lathe doesn't make much sense unless you're sure you'll never work on long parts. But, for $49 a set like Bob has would be well worth having around if you don't have any collets at all.



I agree with every thing you said, and its makes good sense to me. Bob's purchase and reason for it, also makes perfectly good sense. 

I had to sort out my thoughts and understanding of the available ER system. For me to change direction with what I already have on hand, dosen't make sense for my particular situation.

Adding the additional "metric collets" seems to be a good way to go based on what you already have, and intend on adding in the future, if you were to ask me.

-MB


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2010)

I just took a quick look for metric 5C collets. This might not be the best deal or up to your quality standards, but it seems to be a lot for the money. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-C-METRIC-Coll...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4cedd44dba

-MB


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## mu38&Bg# (Feb 23, 2010)

I looked up CTC that Bob bought his collets from and they have a metric 5C set for $75!! I might take a chance how bad can they be?


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 23, 2010)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> I looked up CTC that Bob bought his collets from and they have a metric 5C set for $75!! I might take a chance how bad can they be?



Hold on before you make a decision! The collet set from CTC is only26 pcs. $75 plus shipping ($104.) to my location equals a total of $179!!!!!

The link I provided to the E-Bay seller is $120 with free ship, and its 28 pcs!!!

-MB


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## Blogwitch (Feb 23, 2010)

Having used all the systems mentioned, and still use most of them, I can honestly say that none are perfect. All seem to have their own quirky ways of getting things done.

If the system you have can achieve say 75% of your needs, then you are onto a winner.

I used to use my ER collet system for holding cutters in my mill, but found that sometimes I needed 3 hands to mount a cutter, plus also, I lost about 2.5" of throat height, so now I invariably use R8 collets, unless I have an obscure size that my R8 collets won't hold.

But that doesn't mean the ER collets will never be used again, they will be used not only in my spindex, but on my interchangeable tooling between lathe and RT.

The 5C is the one I use mainly one the lathe, I use it about 95% of the time, but I do wish they would bring out something that could hold will the same accuracy, but up to 2" in diameter. 
The only one I don't use now is the MT collet system, mainly because I don't have machines that will use them any more, without modification adapters. But that was one system I was glad to get rid of, and what Bob mentioned. They are a self gripping taper, and at times, it seemed like you were beating your machines to death to release them. But if that is all your machine will take, then they are just like any other collet system, and no worse than many.

When you boil it all down, no matter what collet system you get, it will be more versatile than fixed holders, and most probably far superior accuracy than your 3 jaw chuck with normal jaws.

Blogs


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## kustomkb (Feb 23, 2010)

> but I do wish they would bring out something that could hold will the same accuracy, but up to 2" in diameter.



they do, their called 25c. Nice to have if you're rich :

http://www.shophardinge.com/product.aspx?partNo=18010019020000


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## shred (Feb 23, 2010)

I mostly use my ER's for holding tools and drills. Picked up that habit from a friend with a commercial CNC shop that puts all their tooling in ER collets; ER-16, with a few 20's and 32's thrown in. They make a lot of sense in a CNC environment-- any tool holder can hold any tool. 

My ER chuck has less runout than my small drill chuck which is helpful for not-breaking tiny drills. I don't know if this is true in all cases. It's also really handy for holding metric cutters and other oddball sizes.

The only time I'll hold stock with ERs in the lathe is when I have small stock that I don't have a 5C for as I don't have a /64ths 5C setup. Otherwise 5C is the stock-holding collet of choice.

If you're all tooled up to hold any cutter in R8's or whatever, then there's less need to get yet another collet system.


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## mu38&Bg# (Feb 24, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Hold on before you make a decision! The collet set from CTC is only26 pcs. $75 plus shipping ($104.) to my location equals a total of $179!!!!!
> 
> The link I provided to the E-Bay seller is $120 with free ship, and its 28 pcs!!!
> 
> -MB



I hadn't gone as far as checking shipping. It seems these people sell on Ebay too. I was looking for some ER16 chucks at one time, I think I saw the same seller, but don't remember the name. I hate to buy Chinese, but I won't be able to avoid it for this. The last time I saw Hardinge metric collets on thEbay the set went for $600.


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## lock-ed (Feb 24, 2010)

I see several are considering to buy the CTC ER chucks and collets.

I have bought an ER25 3MT and ER25 2MT, with metric collets. So far, I am not impressed. The Er25 3MT is mounted on my Sieg X2. With the keyed chuck that came with the mill, measure 0.05mm runout. With the ER25 3MT I get in excess of 0.10mm. 

I have contacted CTC/Johst Heine, but we have not sorted the matter as of yet. I will post updates in my thread "Sieg X2 Spindle Runout"

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8003.0

Brgds,
Edvard


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## don-tucker (Feb 24, 2010)

When my mill and collet chuck arrive,I think I would be very lucky if the runout is acceptable so I intend machining a few thou from the taper of the chuck,using a tipped tool clamped in the vice and tilting the head over to the correct angle.Providing the Morse tapers on the chuck and spindle are a good fit the drawbar's only job is to pull the two up tight
I don't see why this shouldn't work.
Don


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## Maryak (Feb 25, 2010)

woohoo1

I made it to the shop today and as promised I checked out my new ER16 collets and chuck from CTC Tools.

The run out was slightly less than 0.01mm which makes it 0.00035" - 0.00039"

My methodology was to use a piece of round tool steel in a collet and clock it with a dial indicator. One thing I did find out was that the collet must be snugged up firm in the chuck. Hand tight and I had 0.05mm run out. 







This is how a genuine Mitutoyo metric dial indicator looks.






What can I say other than that I am well satisfied with my purchase.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Twmaster (Feb 25, 2010)

Bob that is great news. Thank you for the update and photos.


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## Deanofid (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks for the report, Bob. Appreciate that! 
I've been on the fence about buying from them. Had my eye on a full ER 25 set and MT tang/closer to use for my spindle mounted closer project for the lathe. The whole shebang for $71 including shipping sounded too good. I think I'll pop for it, now.

Dean


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## Maryak (Feb 26, 2010)

lock-ed  said:
			
		

> I see several are considering to buy the CTC ER chucks and collets.
> 
> I have bought an ER25 3MT and ER25 2MT, with metric collets. So far, I am not impressed. The Er25 3MT is mounted on my Sieg X2. With the keyed chuck that came with the mill, measure 0.05mm runout. With the ER25 3MT I get in excess of 0.10mm.
> 
> ...



Dean,

This is the only negative comment so far but I thought I would point it out. Maybe Edvard was unlucky. :-\

Best Regards
Bob


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## Deanofid (Feb 26, 2010)

I saw that one, Bob. It seems he has other problems too, and I can't quite follow from his start point. I didn't see where he eliminated the spindle taper alone. 

Anyway, I'm getting ready to go for it. The collets alone cost more than that here from Shars, before shipping charges. The same Chinese stuff, wherever you go.


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## Maryak (Feb 26, 2010)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> The same Chinese stuff, wherever you go.



Exactly................ especially in Oz.

Best Regards
Bob


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## arnoldb (Feb 26, 2010)

Good going Bob ;D

With my very limited experience of the Chinese ER25 set I have and the chuck I made for my lathe, I have found the same results; less than 0.01mm run-out on most of the collets. I have found 2 collets in my set that has a run-out of just over 0.01 mm though.
If you don't have one, I'd recommend a closer nut with a bearing in it; makes life a lot easier.

I've ordered an ER25 collet chuck set for my new mill; I'll check run-out on that once it arrives, and add some more feedback if anyone's interested.

Kind regards, Arnold


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## don-tucker (Feb 26, 2010)

I like ER collets having used them for years,there is only one snag with them worth considering,they will not grip short pieces ,sorry to start this argument again but I have held a 1/4" length of 3/8" dia bar in the front and the rear end closes till the slots meet.Seems the only way out is to put a small slug of the same material in the back.
Don


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## Maryak (Feb 26, 2010)

Don,

Thanks for the tip. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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