# New Lathe or Mill?



## Nerdz (Dec 16, 2013)

My House "project" is nearly ending, as is the year (Lets be honest here, if you own a house "it" never ends anyway),so Im left with extra funds, Around $1300 is probably what Id like to spend. 

I currently own a Microlux 7x16 lathe. Its pretty good, had to tweak it a little here and there, adjust the gibs, modify the "zero" setting dials. It can cut stainless, W1 and 12L14 pretty good. I still have the turret tool post. I dont mind using shims, but it does get a tad annoying. Up until now, its served me fine, Until I had to cut 4'' Stock. The cross slide was backed out all the way and it still couldnt hit it. I had to take it to work to get it down so my lathe at home could handle it. Since I will be moving, I'll have a Lot more space in the basement, but there is only one entrance, through the kitchen. 

Now, heres what I dont have: A mill or a Bandsaw. As for a mill, I cant decide if I should go with a Taig Mill or a X2 Mill. Even though I know the Taig is probably a hell of a lot more accurate, the X2 is slightly cheaper than a Taig Mill. I would actually go with the Microlux Mill from the same place I got my lathe if I chose to go with a X2. But Im still worried that I might run out of travel or the table isnt big enough. 

But, as of Late, If I want to face Big Round Stock, My Lathe Cant do it. Now Ive noticed that Grizzly has a Nice 9x19 Lathe that comes with a 4'' 3 jaw Chuck and a 7.5'' 4 jaw chuck for $1,149 Shipped. The only issue is the weight, a whopping 250lbs, But I figure if I can take as much off as possible, two people could do it. 

So my question is, Should I get a New Lathe (Obviously selling the old one), a Mill or a Bandsaw? 

My opinion: Ive always wanted a mill. Ive gotten away with using a hacksaw on 1'' stock. Its a lot of work But Ive done it.


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## Jyman (Dec 16, 2013)

If it was me I would go for the mill,


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## Philipintexas (Dec 16, 2013)

I've owned an Enco Mill/drill for about 20 years, It's basically a drill press on steroids but is the most versatile power tool I have. I use it as a drill-press, sold the real one, because location for holes is so precise and it handles light duty milling operations effortlessly. Drilling is limited to about 1" which is plenty and I have a boring-head if I need larger. I've got a nice 12" lathe with DRO but the mill-drill gets used on almost everything I make. It is truly 2 machines in one.


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## Nerdz (Dec 16, 2013)

Philipintexas said:


> I've owned an Enco Mill/drill for about 20 years, It's basically a drill press on steroids but is the most versatile power tool I have. I use it as a drill-press, sold the real one, because location for holes is so precise and it handles light duty milling operations effortlessly. Drilling is limited to about 1" which is plenty and I have a boring-head if I need larger. I've got a nice 12" lathe with DRO but the mill-drill gets used on almost everything I make. It is truly 2 machines in one.



Ive seen the one your talking about, made by Rung Foo( link). The issue here is weight, 660 Lbs isnt something I can get down the stairs easily. 

Unless you mean the smaller one:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1005Z

Looks like grizzly has; what appears to be a xS3, on sale:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0704


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## chucketn (Dec 16, 2013)

Chris, if it were me, I'd be building an outside entrance cellar door...

Chuck


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## Swifty (Dec 16, 2013)

Currently I get away without a bandsaw, just either part off, use a hand hacksaw or mill off the piece that I need. A mill would certainly open more opportunities for you, but I would stay away from a round column one.

Paul.


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## purpleknif (Dec 16, 2013)

I'vr been a machinist fo 30 years and I love my XJ9512 from Big Dog metalwoks. Slightly bigger & heavier than an X2.


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 16, 2013)

The mill Purpleknif is talking about seems similar to this Grizzly model I own

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0704

I've been satisfied with it and agree with Purpleknif that it's got a lot more to it than the X2

Phil


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## vascon2196 (Dec 16, 2013)

Go for the Mill...I purchased a mini-mill for my department at school with a "round" column and it is terrible. The Grizzly with the rectangular column would be much better. I have a Grizzly lathe and its been great.


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## Wizard69 (Dec 16, 2013)

Nerdz said:


> My House "project" is nearly ending, as is the year (Lets be honest here, if you own a house "it" never ends anyway),so Im left with extra funds, Around $1300 is probably what Id like to spend.


That is nice, any new tool monies I'm likely to have will end up going to anew roof.    Very frustrating to say the least.  


> I currently own a Microlux 7x16 lathe. Its pretty good, had to tweak it a little here and there, adjust the gibs, modify the "zero" setting dials. It can cut stainless, W1 and 12L14 pretty good. I still have the turret tool post. I dont mind using shims, but it does get a tad annoying. Up until now, its served me fine, Until I had to cut 4'' Stock. The cross slide was backed out all the way and it still couldnt hit it.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.   Do you mean the lathe didn't have the capacity or it had other issues with the 4" stock?    You can't expect top notch work when running beyond a machines capacity.  


> I had to take it to work to get it down so my lathe at home could handle it. Since I will be moving, I'll have a Lot more space in the basement, but there is only one entrance, through the kitchen.


I have to agree with the guy above that suggested a second entrance.  I have like you a cellar accessed from the kitchen and frankly it really limits you as to the machines you can move in.   


> Now, heres what I dont have: A mill or a Bandsaw. As for a mill, I cant decide if I should go with a Taig Mill or a X2 Mill.


As always it depends.   Frankly only you know what your interests are.   However it is a bigger mistake to buy to little than to buy to big in most cases.   To that end I would suggest avoiding both of those mills and buy more capacity.    Why?   The first issue is clearance, imagine the mill you want to buy with a vise installed on the table, a decent Jacobs chuck in the spindle and a jobber length drill bit in that chuck.   Your real clearance in such a case could be rather thin.     It can get worst if you imagine drilling a fly wheel, a gear or pulley or similar device for a set screw with an aircraft length drill.  If you want such a machine to do double duty as a drill press ( you didn't indicate owning a drill press) then you want long Z movements.  


> Even though I know the Taig is probably a hell of a lot more accurate, the X2 is slightly cheaper than a Taig Mill.


I can't recommend a X2 mill at all if it is one with the vertical column mounted on a hinge.  There are so called solid column variant out there that are better machines.    At this point we have many choices to consider and as such older designs should be dismissed immediately if they have known issues.  


> I would actually go with the Microlux Mill from the same place I got my lathe if I chose to go with a X2. But Im still worried that I might run out of travel or the table isnt big enough.


Really only you can decide that.    As stated above, more or less, buying too little for your needs can lead to extreme frustration.   In most cases it is better to err on the side of too big.  


> But, as of Late, If I want to face Big Round Stock, My Lathe Cant do it.


I'm not sure what your problem is.    Before dismissing the lathe as no good for your needs I'd go over it with a fine tooth comb.   


> Now Ive noticed that Grizzly has a Nice 9x19 Lathe that comes with a 4'' 3 jaw Chuck and a 7.5'' 4 jaw chuck for $1,149 Shipped.


I bought the same lathe years ago from Harbor Freight.   It isn't a bad little lathe but I do see it as rather small considering something's I've wanted to do with it.    I'm not certain it would be a step increase in capability that you might want.  


> The only issue is the weight, a whopping 250lbs,


Actually it is a problem in a way you might not realize, it is a light lathe at 250 pounds.    Much of that weight is in the attached motors and the like so it isn't the most robust set of ways and tailstock.   

Speaking of attachments, take what you can off the lathe to move it into your shop.  That is what I did to get mind in the cellar.  It is still a lot of work and frankly that was ten years ago.  


> But I figure if I can take as much off as possible, two people could do it.


Remove the motor tailstock gears and whatever it can be done by one person with a little determination and the right equipment.  


> So my question is, Should I get a New Lathe (Obviously selling the old one), a Mill or a Bandsaw?


That is a difficult one to answer.   I'm still without a mill myself even though I have a bandsaw, drill press and a number of wood working tools.  I'm as likely to cut something up and then weld it back together as I am to do fine machining work.  However given that I really desire to get a mill into my shop.   


> My opinion: Ive always wanted a mill. Ive gotten away with using a hacksaw on 1'' stock. Its a lot of work But Ive done it.


Then get a mill!   The only question becomes what sort of mill.  To that end you need something you will be happy with.  Smaller / larger isn't something we can guess at for you.   I can only suggest making sure it is big enough.


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 17, 2013)

Choises choises. why not take a road trip to the grizzly show room.  It is only a 4 hour drive for you. and you can see what is available. 
IMHO if you want a bigger better lathe save your pennies and go for the 10 x 22.

but you need to decide is a bigger lathe or a having a mill more important and which is needed more and will get more use. 
As far as moving into the basement a 9 x 19 is not too bad I have done it with myself and a Strong helper. 

To move a a x 2 you either need it crated and strapped to a moving cart or disassemble in thou pieces.  Either doable. 
Tin


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## Sshire (Dec 17, 2013)

Agree with Tin. Seeing the machines in person is a big help in deciding. I was going to get the Griz 9" but after seeing the 10" at the showroom and talking to the folks there about the component weights after disassembly, I went with the 10". After removing the motor, carriage, headstock and tailstock, I was able to drag, slide and push from the garage toi the kitchen and down the stairs.
Also, round column mills will reduce your enjoyment by a huge factor.


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## mechman48 (Dec 17, 2013)

If I were you I would go for the mill; I have the UK version of Grizzly's G0704 but with the control box extended on an attached arm otherwise the same features. Great machine albeit a little noisy from the plastic intermediate gears in the head but doesn't bother me too much, in fact I use the noise to tell me when too much cut is too much if you get my drift. A lot of guys have replaced these with metal gears or converted to belt drive (I want to do that in the future) but being retired expense comes into it. All in all a nice machine which I have surprised myself with what I have managed to do on it, go for it, you will ask yourself why didn't I get one sooner

Regards
George


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## Nerdz (Dec 17, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> That is nice, any new tool monies I'm likely to have will end up going to anew roof.    Very frustrating to say the least.



[off topic] The joy of owning a older house. Im Just finding out that the second bedroom has no insulation on the walls. Might as well tear those down! They arent painted yet, and actually we primered them only for the wall to "peel" off (there was some glue holding the wood paneling together). The previous owners put up half wood paneling and half wallpaper in the room. People do odd things to houses. 



> I'm not sure what you mean by that.   Do you mean the lathe didn't have the capacity or it had other issues with the 4" stock?    You can't expect top notch work when running beyond a machines capacity.


My Tool bit couldnt reach the 4'' stock. I had a hole I drilled in the middle of round stock from work, mounted on a arbor. But now that I think of it, I could have probably used a boring bar. A 4'' or 5'' Chuck Might be in the future..



> I have to agree with the guy above that suggested a second entrance.  I have like you a cellar accessed from the kitchen and frankly it really limits you as to the machines you can move in.


For the time being,  Its out of the budget. Id have to excavate, hire engineers, etc. It would cost probably 10k, but for that much I could rent a garage and buy a cheap Bridgeport . There is a shed in back though, that is in need of repair. Its not high on my list but it has given me some idea's.



> I'm not sure what your problem is.    Before dismissing the lathe as no good for your needs I'd go over it with a fine tooth comb.


Point Taken . I thought about this last night. I need to get some more 4'' stock somehow before deciding to move up. It wont be often that I'll use 4'' stock either. I think if anything would make this better, it would be a QTP.



Tin Falcon said:


> Choises choises. why not take a road trip to  the grizzly show room.  It is only a 4 hour drive for you. and you can  see what is available.
> IMHO if you want a bigger better lathe save your pennies and go for the 10 x 22.
> 
> but you need to decide is a bigger lathe or a having a mill more important and which is needed more and will get more use.
> ...



I thought of doing that. It would be a nice road trip and it would get rid of the "winter blues", although My Suby doesnt mind the white stuff . I was thinking of how I would move something like the G074 last night. 300lbs and Im sure I can take mostly everything off. I figure I could slide it down some 2x4's using some nylon rope and a pully system.




mechman48 said:


> Great machine albeit a  little noisy from the plastic intermediate gears in the head but doesn't  bother me too much, in fact I use the noise to tell me when too much  cut is too much if you get my drift. A lot of guys have replaced these  with metal gears or converted to belt drive (I want to do that in the  future) but being retired expense comes into it. All in all a nice  machine which I have surprised myself with what I have managed to do on  it, go for it, you will ask yourself why didn't I get one sooner
> 
> Regards
> George



I do the same thing with my lathe. She'll let me know when I take to much or if the stock isnt tight. Recently Ive  pushed her to the limit, taking off 30 (or more) thou off at a time. The great thing is to, is that I doubt that any new mill in this price range will come out anytime soon. I already have some end mills and a Kirk Vice that came off a bridgeport and I'd REALLY love to use it.

ADD: This page is helping a lot, to give a size comparison 
http://www.g0704.com/mill_comparison.html

Ive been reading that the g0704 is really a BF20. 




But to me, this photo speaks volume. I think we have a winner  Now to make sure the basement is high enough!


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## ShopShoe (Dec 17, 2013)

Nerdz,

As others have said, it depends on what projects like to make. Do you like small and precise, detailed models; or do you like a wide variety or projects: Sounds like you have a wide variety of interests.

I don't believe you'll regret getting a mill. Remember you will need to buy, make, and collect tooling to make it work, which will also add up: Larger projects need larger tools which cost more, etc.

When I was faced with this decision, the fixed-column mini-mill did not exist and I had heard so much about the swivel-column issues of the mini-mill that I moved on to the X3 (Grizzly 4063) which is larger, has a dove-tail column with tapered gibs, and has larger capacity. the price is only a little more than you have mentioned. It is close to 500 pounds heavy, but I think you could probably solve the issues of getting it into your shop with a little thought and some big helpers and rented movers' equipment.  I never regret going larger myself as I can easily get near the capacity of this larger machine.

I saved money by not going the next step to the SX3, which has a swivel head and some other features, I have not needed them that much and spent the difference in price on tooling.

If you are still looking at a mini-mill, My preference would be for the fixed column from LMS. harrzack has a very nice set-up with one of those and a good DRO system (I admit to envy): 

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f28/sinpo-scales-dro-lms-hi-torque-mill-22042/

As regards the bandsaw/hacksaw, the cost is less and so many are sold you may be able to find one used, or consider some of the suggestions by other forum members as to adapting portable bandsaws. You will also save shop space right now.

--ShopShoe


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## Nerdz (Dec 17, 2013)

ShopShoe said:


> Nerdz,
> 
> As others have said, it depends on what projects like to make. Do you like small and precise, detailed models; or do you like a wide variety or projects: Sounds like you have a wide variety of interests.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about this too. Do I get a smaller mill (less expensive) so I can use that "extra" money to buy tooling, or get the larger mill and dont have enough for tooling (atleast for the time being)? 

Variety of Interests is correct  I would probably end up using the mill to improve my lathe. One thing that really gets me worked up about a mill, is that I can make gears on it! Something about gears in general just fascinate me. Yes i know I can make gears on a lathe, but I dont have a milling fixture, and for the amount of money they cost, I could easily put that in the fund for a mill.


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## purpleknif (Dec 17, 2013)

Philjoe5 said:


> The mill Purpleknif is talking about seems similar to this Grizzly model I own
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0704
> 
> ...


  XJ9512 is a little smaller both in price and size !


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 17, 2013)

> XJ9512 is a little smaller both in price and size



I see from the specs that the Big Dog Mini Mill is about 50 pounds less than the Grizzly 0704 and over $400 less.  This seems to be a nice step up from the X2 minimill at just a few hundred more.  I don't think I've seen any other vendors carry a mill in this size and price range.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Tinkerer58 (Dec 17, 2013)

Hi Nerdz, I agree with all that is said here, but you know what projects interest you now, but do you know what will grab your fancy next year? I have a very simple philosophy that I always come back to without having to ponder too much. I use a few simple questions I ask myself first:
1. How much can I afford?
2. What is the biggest machine I can buy for that money and will it fit in the space.
3. Look for the best deals to get bang for your buck.
4. I can make small things on a big machine, but I can't make big things on a small machine, So size does matter and it also helps with the overall sturdiness.
5. Tooling can be purchased as required (the machine can't really be purchased in bits and pieces). 
6. Moving the equipment to it's location, hell where there is a will there is a way. (I moved a 1/2 ton lathe by myself onto and off the trailer and into my shop).
7. New or second hand? Second hand if equipment is very well looked after, prefer new, yes Chinese machines have some issues but can easily be adjusted and improved upon with a little work but at least you have all new parts and no wear or other hidden problems that maybe hard to detect on second hand machines. After all they will not tell you the real reason why they are selling it in the first place if it has problems.

My 2 cents hope it gives you food for thought so you can come to the correct decision for you.


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## Wizard69 (Dec 17, 2013)

Nerdz said:


> I was wondering about this too. Do I get a smaller mill (less expensive) so I can use that "extra" money to buy tooling, or get the larger mill and dont have enough for tooling (atleast for the time being)?


Some tooling you can build yourself.   Going bigger is certainly a bit harder on the initial budget!    However, this is a big point, the mill will last most users a lifetime.   That is if you buy the right size for your needs.  


> Variety of Interests is correct  I would probably end up using the mill to improve my lathe.


Or build a new lathe.   The reality is a real, functional mill opens up all sorts of possibilities.  If you have a variety of interests then a largish mill would make more sense that one targeted at model makers.   


> One thing that really gets me worked up about a mill, is that I can make gears on it! Something about gears in general just fascinate me. Yes i know I can make gears on a lathe, but I dont have a milling fixture, and for the amount of money they cost, I could easily put that in the fund for a mill.


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## Wizard69 (Dec 17, 2013)

Philjoe5 said:


> I see from the specs that the Big Dog Mini Mill is about 50 pounds less than the Grizzly 0704 and over $400 less.  This seems to be a nice step up from the X2 minimill at just a few hundred more.  I don't think I've seen any other vendors carry a mill in this size and price range.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil




I will have to look into that mill.   

I noticed a lot of focus on weight in this thread.   One option that can be considered is disassembly of a mill to allow moving it into a shop.  Considering the need to clean up these mills it isn't as bad of an idea as some may think. However if one is to do such a disassembly they should have the correct tooling to aid in reassembly.    The nice thing about a mill is that the weight is spread ou a bit better than on a lathe.   With a lathe you could disassemble it and still have a massive chunk of iron on your hands.


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## Nerdz (Dec 17, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> Or build a new lathe.   The reality is a real, functional mill opens up all sorts of possibilities.  If you have a variety of interests then a largish mill would make more sense that one targeted at model makers.



Speaking of that, I have all the gingery series books. Love those things! lots of information to be had in them. It has given me the idea of trying to make my own mill using updated technology. At one point I was pricing out all the steel for the frame. Im sure I could make one..if I had the time.

Its funny in a sort of a way, a lathe can make another lathe (or so Ive heard), but a Mill and and a lathe can make More mills and Lathes, and Somehow be more accurate than the machine it was made on.


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## ShopShoe (Dec 18, 2013)

"One thing that really gets me worked up about a mill, is that I can make gears on it! Something about gears in general just fascinate me."

If you really want to make gears, especially larger than micro-sized gears, you will need plenty of Z clearance and table space and motion for the setup. In my opinion, a mini-mill would limit you quite a bit.

Perhaps those who make gears on small mills can chime in here.

--ShopShoe


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## Wizard69 (Dec 18, 2013)

Nerdz said:


> Speaking of that, I have all the gingery series books.


Yep I have those books also.   


> Love those things! lots of information to be had in them. It has given me the idea of trying to make my own mill using updated technology. At one point I was pricing out all the steel for the frame. Im sure I could make one..if I had the time.


Time is a problem!   Huge problem if you actually work for a living.   

I've actually thought about doing a Gingery Mill like machine due to the unique abilities of the design and the fact that you can't buy anything like that mill these days.  


> Its funny in a sort of a way, a lathe can make another lathe (or so Ive heard), but a Mill and and a lathe can make More mills and Lathes, and Somehow be more accurate than the machine it was made on.




In many cases accuracy comes down to hand finishing the machine.  Scraping the parts in for that perfect fit.  

You think about it though this isn't a surprise, machinery in general started out as rather crude machines that got better with time.   New machines have always been built upon what came before.   It is sort of the same with engines, some of the original steam engines where extremely crude compared to today's steam turbines.


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## Nerdz (Dec 18, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> You think about it though this isn't a surprise, machinery in general started out as rather crude machines that got better with time.   New machines have always been built upon what came before.   It is sort of the same with engines, some of the original steam engines where extremely crude compared to today's steam turbines.



But they worked, and got the job done. They lead to more [complex] machines being made, and an industrial and social revolution.  Its simple yet the heat source is universal. Its one of the things that now fascinates me about steam.



ShopShoe said:


> "One thing that really gets me worked up about a mill, is that I can make gears on it! Something about gears in general just fascinate me."
> 
> If you really want to make gears, especially larger than micro-sized gears, you will need plenty of Z clearance and table space and motion for the setup. In my opinion, a mini-mill would limit you quite a bit.
> 
> ...



The G0704 has 13'' of clearance from the spindle to the table. My lathe (at the moment) can handle 3.15'' of stock with the 4 jaw chuck. I dont think I'll be making gears bigger than that. Would leave me with 9-10'' of room for tooling. I got that book on gear making, I cant remember what the title is, but everyone recommended it (Everyone being my research on gear making ).


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 18, 2013)

> Perhaps those who make gears on small mills can chime in here.



I started making spur gears a few months ago when I started building my first IC engine.  I made them on an X3 mill using both a rotary table (mine) and a dividing head (a friends).  Both gave good results once I got my act together.

I could have used the G0704 mill to make the gears.  There's adequate "z" axis as long as your dividing head or rotary table distance from spindle to table is not more than about 3.5".  Above that I can't say.

Now, there are gears and there are gears.  The one's I made were Metric Module 1 gears which translate to a diametrical pitch of 25.4.  I would say making steel gears in a smaller diametrical pitch on an X3 or G0704 would be a challenge.  If anyone has done it I'd like to hear about their experience.

Turns out the gears used on my Grizzly 10 x 22 lathe are module 1.  I suspect that's the pitch used on some of the smaller lathes like the 9 x 20.

Cheers,
Phil


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## goldstar31 (Dec 18, 2013)

The 920 lathe -or mine which was an Axminster 9180 has No1 module gears because I converted it to a better slow speed arrangement with Module 1 gears. It had a nylon- easily strippable 80 tooth gear.

 This strips on Sundays and Bank holidays- as one expects- together with thin drive belts.

 Actually, I've done more with the 'classic' 20DP gears as I bought and restored a basket case Myford which had run on mahogany dust in the gear box. However, I have a full set of 20's and a few 24's and 16's. I made set of 20's for the first Stent with a rack.

 However moving to smaller gears there is a full explanation which the late Rex Tingey( same age as me) wrote up for the little Unimat which has no gears as bought. For those who want the words and music, they are on the Yahoogroups Unimat group under 'files'. Frankly, this is a little book that is well worth the reading as it contains notes on dividing heads and ball handles-- and a lot more besides.

 Somewhere is a strange article on how to make gear cutters in Model Engineer. It was the work and ingenuity of the late Martin Cleeve and he made his own 20 DP gears with a double ended lathe tool which cut the gears in what was obviously two cuts. Again, the years have rolled on, I dumped the articles when the late Jim Early and I were threatened by the new owners of Model Engineer.

 It is worth unearthing especially for those who want a rather different slant on machining on a small lathe. With similarly little money, perhaps?

 Merry Christmas

 Norman


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