# endmill



## rrocky (Apr 17, 2021)

Hullo members, any information where I can purchase a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill? have searched the net   no result.  rrocky


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## Chiptosser (Apr 17, 2021)

You would have to find someone with a tool grinder to get that diameter.
Why do you want the specific diameter?


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## rrocky (Apr 17, 2021)

Chiptosser said:


> You would have to find someone with a tool grinder to get that diameter.
> Why do you want the specific diameter?


Hi, building Demon V8 water pump it needs 2 holes for gears to run in, have seen 8.8mm endmill but cannot find it again, thanks for reply. rrocky


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## Chiptosser (Apr 17, 2021)

Can you silver solder a small lathe tool bit to short piece of rod and grind it?
Do you have a boring head?


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## rrocky (Apr 17, 2021)

Chiptosser said:


> Can you silver solder a small lathe tool bit to short piece of rod and grind it?
> Do you have a boring head?


Yes it looks like that is what i will have to do many thanks rrocky


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## Jasonb (Apr 17, 2021)

Or mount it on a rotary table and use say a 6mm dia milling cutter.

Alternative would be to skim the crests off the gears and use a 11/32" cutter, doubt a couple of thou will affect flow too much


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## goldstar31 (Apr 17, 2021)

I would suggest an adjustable boring head. Of course  it is possible to use an independent chuck or a 3 jaw one. Old fashioned - and possibly  long forgotten but- it works


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## fcheslop (Apr 17, 2021)

Alternatively , you could make a D bit milling cutter. Not a lot of work


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## nautilus29 (Apr 17, 2021)

Typically if you use an end mill to bore out a hole it will cut bigger than the end mill size, so even if you find the end mill you are looking for you may not be happy with your results.


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## jack620 (Apr 18, 2021)

Why does it have to be carbide?


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## goldstar31 (Apr 18, 2021)

jack620 said:


> Why does it have to be carbide?



Of course, the suggestion is Fanciful.

I could be less polite but will refrain.

FCHeslop's posting of an really superb video sets a standard which surprises and delights me,
As far as I can see, ALL the wonderful outcome was  achieved on  these mucg despised Chinese lathes and having a similar lathe to what appears to be only a Sieg C4 makes me ashamed to compare  it with my miserable efforts.
Let's try to improve standaerds, They are available to emulate as we can see

Norman


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## jack620 (Apr 18, 2021)

Whatever are you on about Norman?


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## grahamgollar (Apr 18, 2021)

I agree with Nautilus, a 4 flute mill won't give an accurate bore. Use a 2 flute {slot) mill for a more accurate result. Another suggestion - why not find a near oversize counterbore and grind it back to the required diameter. This is probably easier than grinding an end mill.


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## Rocket Man (Apr 18, 2021)

You can make any size hole with a turn table.


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## rrocky (Apr 18, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the help have got it sorted.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 19, 2021)

rrocky said:


> Thanks everyone for the help have got it sorted.



Noted and comments appreciated but  for the benefit of thers who are treading the same path, please tell us of your solution.


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## Tim1974 (Apr 19, 2021)

Drill and bore it simple!


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## doc1955 (Apr 19, 2021)

Rocket Man said:


> You can make any size hole with a turn table.


 Or a 4 jaw chuck or face plate and a lathe.


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## IanN (Apr 20, 2021)

As a number of people have pointed out, an end mill is the wrong tool for the job.  

The end mill is designed for one job only - profiling (cutting with its side) and should never be used to cut with its end

I think the point made by Norman is that there is a tendency for people to assume “high tech” solutions to simple problems. As a result we have idiots who clear swarf  and “clean” machines using compressed air, who never learn to use a hacksaw because they truly believe a bandsaw is the only way to cut a piece of metal, and who spend 20 minutes setting up and milling a job which would take two minutes if you used a file on the bench

The web is full of machining videos, made by people who may (or may not) know what they are doing, who may (or may not) show safe practice, who may (or may not) explain the processes at work.

Treat forums (this one included) and YouTube videos as “interesting talking points” but do not try to use them as a substitute for proper instruction

I would advise people to learn methods from old books - there are many out of copyright texts freely available and books written in the 19th century were intended for apprentices who worked on foot-powered lathes and had no access to verniers or micrometers

It is the difference between “training” and “education” .

All the best
Ian


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## goldstar31 (Apr 20, 2021)

IanN said:


> I think the point made by Norman is that there is a tendency for people to assume “high tech” solutions to simple problems.



Respecfully,


 I don't go for 'high tech\ stuff but I do gp for elegant solutions.  
There is a lot of confusion about what is white simply 'widening a hole' and a respondent to my reply lierally doesn't know what the Hell trhat I was prsattling about. 

Years ago, I spent perhaps £30 on Georgee Thomas's Model engineer's Workshop Manual and  was impressed on just how cheap( but elegant)  his tooling was.
 For instance there is vast amount on how to do precision boring as an 
arguably superior . THREE of his  boring tools are nothing more than a bit of square or rectangular mill steel, an socket screww and a - wait for it---- a broken centre drill on each item.
In other words, I am a crude ill educated Geordie out of sh1t row and as a quite capable cost account have realised the cost is bluntly, the square root of bugger all!
In the same book, there is a oddly sorted heap of metal  which is an adjustable boring head which wil do ball handles as well and the cost  was a Model Engineer 40 TPI tap and die. 
A few moths ago, I bought a  bundle of scrap ms sheet and a few short lengths of EN1A.


Bluntltly, just how cheap do you want to pay for your hobby folks?

Enough from me

Norman


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## jack620 (Apr 20, 2021)

IanN said:


> The end mill is designed for one job only - profiling (cutting with its side) and should never be used to cut with its end



Meh, I've done it plenty of times. Cheap Chinese 4 flute solid carbide end mills to counterbore 8mm pockets into titanium. Nothing else in my armoury was going to do the job. Whatever it takes to get the job done I say.


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## Jasonb (Apr 20, 2021)

IanN said:


> The end mill is designed for one job only - profiling (cutting with its side) and should never be used to cut with its end



So what is the point of centre cutting end mills if we can't plunge into a pocket and then start profiling or use them to cut a helical bore down into a pocket before profiling.

I do these things particularly the later quite a lot as does most of industry with their CNC machines. The world has moved on from when there were only 2-flute slot drills or 4-flute endmills with screwed shanks.


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## L98fiero (Apr 20, 2021)

Jasonb said:


> So what is the point of centre cutting end mills if we can't plunge into a pocket and then start profiling or use them to cut a helical bore down into a pocket before profiling.
> 
> I do these things particularly the later quite a lot as does most of industry with their CNC machines. The world has moved on from when there were only 2-flute slot drills or 4-flute endmills with screwed shanks.


I agree, it depends a lot on the rigidity of the machine, a very good way of accurately locating a reamed hole is to drill it 10 - 15% undersize and then drill with an endmill that has been ground 2 - 3% under finished size to accurately locate the hole before final reaming to size. Not quite as good as jig boring for location and it takes a reasonably rigid machine to do that but endmills can be and do get used for more than profiling. And yes, while a four flute center cutting endmill is not great at a straight plunge cut, slot drills/2 flute endmills are designed for drilling, especially to start a keyway.


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## IanN (Apr 20, 2021)

jack620 said:


> Meh, I've done it plenty of times. Cheap Chinese 4 flute solid carbide end mills to counterbore 8mm pockets into titanium. Nothing else in my armoury was going to do the job. Whatever it takes to get the job done I say.



Hi Jack,

You can run across the road blindfolded and get away with it loads of times - it doesn’t mean it is sensible or the right thing to do

Regarding machining titanium - just remember it has the same hardness and “strength” as mild steel, but with the density of aluminium. The only thing to bear in mind is that titanium has low thermal conductivity so will work harden quickly if your tool rubs rather than cuts and you do not use coolant

All the best
Ian


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## IanN (Apr 20, 2021)

Jasonb said:


> So what is the point of centre cutting end mills if we can't plunge into a pocket and then start profiling or use them to cut a helical bore down into a pocket before profiling.
> 
> I do these things particularly the later quite a lot as does most of industry with their CNC machines. The world has moved on from when there were only 2-flute slot drills or 4-flute endmills with screwed shanks.



Hi Jason,

We are “two nations separated by a common language”

In the USA you call every end milling cutter an “end mill”.  In the we have end mills (which are standard milling cutters designed to cut with their sides, but which fit on the end of the milling arbor) and slot drills which are designed to plunge cut

What you do with your CNC machine in an industrial setting probably bears very little relation to what you do with a hobby machine in an average home workshop - a “hobby mill” may allow you to use a three flute slot drill, but it will not possess the rigidity to allow you to use a four flute slot drill for surfacing operations

All the best,
Ian


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## jack620 (Apr 20, 2021)

IanN said:


> You can run across the road blindfolded and get away with it loads of times - it doesn’t mean it is sensible or the right thing to do



So now you're saying drilling with an end mill is dangerous/stupid? Those sorts of silly statements are the reason why forum threads so often go off the rails. Please try and keep the discussion sensible.



IanN said:


> Regarding machining titanium - just remember it has the same hardness and “strength” as mild steel, but with the density of aluminium.



A popular misconception. Titanium is 60% denser than aluminium. And why are you telling me about the properties of titanium? I've worked with it extensively. Have you?


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## Dubi (Apr 21, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Respecfully,
> 
> 
> I don't go for 'high tech\ stuff but I do gp for elegant solutions.
> ...


Nice comment, appreciated. Stay safe.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 21, 2021)

Dubi said:


> Nice comment, appreciated. Stay safe.



Thanks Dubi for the succinct but nevertheless wise words.
As I have repeated so many tomes, it is a hobby and we can only make it a continued success by exercising harmony.  There os nothing to be gained from behaving otherwise.
So thank you for your courteous understanding.

My best wishes and I hope that you are continuing to enjoy your hobby in what are troublesome enough times for everyone in the World

Norman


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## jetstuff (Apr 21, 2021)

jack620 said:


> And why are you telling me about the properties of titanium? I've worked with it extensively. Have you?



Jack, please remember that these posts are also for the benefit of those still wanting to learn, not only for those that already know....


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## jack620 (Apr 21, 2021)

jetstuff said:


> Jack, please remember that these posts are also for the benefit of those still wanting to learn, not only for those that already know....



It's only of benefit if it's correct jetstuff.


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## terryd (Apr 21, 2021)

rrocky said:


> Hullo members, any information where I can purchase a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill? have searched the net   no result.  rrocky


The D bit mentioned in an earleir post would be a perfect solution as you ly need a small diameter hole.  I make mine from silver steel (drill rod) hardened and tempered for only the last inch or so.  You can turn the drill rod down to any diameter and as accurately as you need.  athey can be used as reamers and as accurate boring tools for long accurately centred holes on the lathe especially, as there is much less tendency to twist under the forces invilved unlike normal jobbers fluted drills which tend to try to 'untwist' under htose forces and is a main cause of drill wandering.  

My D bits are made to a different style than the one shown earlier and is based on the work of George Thomas (mentioned in an earlier posting by Norman) and they work and work well and can be made easily in the workshop as needed - why wait for the mailman?

Here's one of mine - crude, well used, worn, but still works, like me!.  this one is 12mm diameter and in need of a touch on the grindstone.






 side profile showing clearance angle - similar to lathe tool





Top view showing non cutting side ground at angle from centre of clearance, doesn't need to be exact if a pilot hole is drilled.  I marked an exact centre before hardening using a lathe with a cutting tool set exactly on centre and scribed a line with the D bit in the 3 jaw.  Best used on a lathe

Stay safe and healthy


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## goldstar31 (Apr 21, 2021)

terryd said:


> My D bits are made to a different style than the one shown earlier and is based on the work of George Thomas (mentioned in an earlier posting by Norman) and they work and work well and can be made easily in the workshop as needed - why wait for the mailman?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just to be a little different,  I used to grind a half just behind  your D bit end= to take small amounts of swarf-- after pecking from the tailstock poppet. 
No criticism, merely a bit 'doing it my way'

So thank you- and continued best wishes for the demonstrations

Norman


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## IanN (Apr 21, 2021)

jack620 said:


> So now you're saying drilling with an end mill is dangerous/stupid? Those sorts of silly statements are the reason why forum threads so often go off the rails. Please try and keep the discussion sensible.
> 
> 
> 
> A popular misconception. Titanium is 60% denser than aluminium. And why are you telling me about the properties of titanium? I've worked with it extensively. Have you?



Hi Jack,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post

I think you misread my comment on crossing the road blindfold - I suggested it was not “sensible or the right thing to do” - you seem to have accidentally misread these words as “dangerous/stupid”

I believe (despite miss reading my reply) that you understand the point I was making.  The Original Poster had assumed the best way to do the job was to try and buy special tooling, when the reality (as several people pointed out) was to bore the holes.

By giving good advice the OP ends up wiser, by understanding why certain approaches are not as good as others the OP has a greater chance of succeeding when confronted by problems in the future.  As I said in an earlier post - it is the difference between training and education

Regarding my comments about titanium:

I miss understood your statement (apologies) - I thought that you were implying that the fact you were machining titanium was in some way significant as “nothing else in [your] armoury would do the job” (when in reality titanium is no harder to machine than mild steel or aluminium, as long as you use cutting fluid and sharp tools).  As you gave the impression that you did not realise this, I tried to help.  It is unfortunate that you are offended by my help and take it as some form of insult

You choose to think of titanium as 60% denser than aluminium, I tend to use a “rule of thumb” and group Ti and Al as similar compared to MS - we will just have to agree to differ on our view points, which no doubt come from our different engineering back grounds

Have I machined much Ti?  In the 25 year period from 1969 to the mid-1990s, not constantly, but a reasonable amount.  Since moving from engineering industrial R and D in to university and college based environment, less so, but my role lecturing in engineering and teaching apprentices requires me to remain at the cutting edge (pun intended)

As you seem easily offended, and I have no desire to upset you, rather than getting in to a bragging contest about how much we have each machined and whose mill has the best motor, I am perfectly happy to say you are better at everything.  It makes no difference to me and will presumably make you happy

I recognition of your status, drop me your location and next time I’m in “The Colonies”, if I’m passing your way, I will drop by and buy you a pint.  Similarly, if you come to England, offer still stands

All the best,
Ian


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## Jasonb (Apr 21, 2021)

jack620 said:


> It's only of benefit if it's correct jetstuff.



I don't see anything wrong with correcting misinformation if people are to learn.

For those that do want to learn IanN is probably getting mixed up with weight and density. For example take two bicycle frames of equal strength one made of aluminium and one made of Titanium. They will both weigh approx the same but due to it's strength the denser titanium the frame can be made with much thinner wall tubes. So less material for the same finished strength which cancels out teh fact the Titanium is heavier for the same given volume.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 21, 2021)

Some clarity seems merited on 'carbide' and 'titanium'' 

Both words bear no clear meaning - maven in English.

Cardide means - inn engineering a flammable gas whilst titanium is  the replac ement to white lead


Thank You for your expexpected rudition


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## timo_gross (Apr 21, 2021)

Reading in this forum I uncover many new ways to reach the same goal. Lots of information out there. Lots of nay sayers and opinions. Lots of "experts" and "beginners".


IanN said:


> they truly believe a bandsaw is the only way to cut a piece of metal



I feel so caught in the act by Ian. "Aren`t fibre lasers the only viable option to cut metal?  ... A hacksaw really? It is a constant challenge to judge information, choose the right tool for the right job, use the tool you want to use because it is fun , or work with what you have. I abuse a cnc machine for simple jobs like drilling incl. lengthy setups all the time. My drillpress is a horrible cheap junk without any torque.

A simple picture of a Universal pillar tool made by someone as a fun hobby project causes all sorts of comments. Telling the beginner ( maybe the maker of the tool, or only a spectator ) that he was extremly stupid: "Tapping can only be done with 5 axis machine centers ( Made in Germany, blonde virgin, full moon, blabla )" via "I never broke a tap in my life" to "I can grind a .346 inch 4 flute carbide endmill from a saw cut pine wood blank on my bench grinder, it takes less than 5 min"

@rrocky: Did you find that guy with the magic bench grinder or the magic guy with the bench grinder - done- ?!

Greetings Timo


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## jack620 (Apr 21, 2021)

IanN said:


> You choose to think of titanium as 60% denser than aluminium...



Choose to think? Titanium is 60% denser than aluminium. That is not open for debate. And you claim to have lectured engineering at university.



IanN said:


> As you seem easily offended



On the contrary, I have a hide like a rhinoceros. But I feel duty-bound to point out misinformation and hyperbole when I see it. And there's plenty of it in your posts.


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## Badhippie (Apr 21, 2021)

Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. As for the hacksaw yep I know how to use one but why would I use a hacksaw over a band saw or a portaband. I believe in letting my tools do the work for me. Work smarter not harder. Please excuse me for being a newbie at this I have only been doing it since 1986 as a profession. Plunge a hole with a endmill omg how taboo. A endmill is only made to cut on its side I guess I don’t even know what to say about that one ( Center Cut ) Now is it the best tool for making a hole maybe not the best tool but it’s in the top 5. If you want a hole and have the equipment and tools to do it then drill it close and finish it by boring to size. I guess again put me in the idiot class I have made thousands of holes with a center cut endmill.
Most people in here do this as a hobby so to use words like idiots or stupid is completely uncalled for this does nothing for helping a person. Then for us who do this as a profession to hear how stupid we are and have been doing it wrong. Well it’s not the first time I have done something wrong and it won’t be the last time. But I seem to make a damn fine living at it. Now you can call this butt hurt or whatever you want but if anyone knows me I really could care less what a person thinks of me never have cared and never will care. But when someone asks a question how about we try to answer the question to the best of our ability and leave the bullshit out ( except for joking with someone that’s always allowed lol ) Thanks for letting me vent I am done now remember these words of wisdom from the Hippie. 
When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job. 
Thanks Tom


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## jack620 (Apr 22, 2021)

Badhippie said:


> Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi.



Me too. 30psi seems to be about right. Brilliant for blowing chips off tool-holders before returning them to their drawer. I suspect people who make black and white "idiot" type statements on forums are textbook/theoretical types with limited real world experience. They should stick to the classroom.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 22, 2021)

jack620 said:


> Me too. 30psi seems to be about right. Brilliant for blowing chips off tool-holders before returning them to their drawer. I suspect people who make black and white "idiot" type statements on forums are textbook/theoretical types with limited real world experience. They should stick to the classroom.


Inevitably, there will be an accident or two and whilst the pharmaceutical industry and its shareholders will reap the rewards from their foresight. 
I vaguely recall my school days but what little remains sufficed to learn about 'Wise and foolish virgins'. having alternative jobs like St Paul and the bit about the generosity from a despised  Samarium.

So dammit,  I invested in 'silly sunbathers' and gambled on the odds that the Plagues of Egypt  was not a 'one off' and that there would be need for more of the Good Doctor St Lukes.

Far be it from me to offer criticism  and I applaud your demand to freely shape your life


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## aRM (Apr 22, 2021)

Badhippie said:


> Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi.  Hippie.
> When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
> Thanks Tom


Can't just help but put in my Two Cents Worth  here as we are also in "the Idiot Class" as so crassly  painted by the Maestro !!
We have joined this most knowledgable Forum not to create any Models or the like but  just so's we can LEARN from some of the good Guys here who'd share their Brilliance, Expertise and Experience in Machining and Technical Works.
Regrettably,  all this has taken a different meaning to some Folks here.
All we can do now is stand by the roadside and shake our heads ashamedly.
Sad indeed.
aRM


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## IanN (Apr 23, 2021)

Badhippie said:


> Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. As for the hacksaw yep I know how to use one but why would I use a hacksaw over a band saw or a portaband. I believe in letting my tools do the work for me. Work smarter not harder. Please excuse me for being a newbie at this I have only been doing it since 1986 as a profession. Plunge a hole with a endmill omg how taboo. A endmill is only made to cut on its side I guess I don’t even know what to say about that one ( Center Cut ) Now is it the best tool for making a hole maybe not the best tool but it’s in the top 5. If you want a hole and have the equipment and tools to do it then drill it close and finish it by boring to size. I guess again put me in the idiot class I have made thousands of holes with a center cut endmill.
> Most people in here do this as a hobby so to use words like idiots or stupid is completely uncalled for this does nothing for helping a person. Then for us who do this as a profession to hear how stupid we are and have been doing it wrong. Well it’s not the first time I have done something wrong and it won’t be the last time. But I seem to make a damn fine living at it. Now you can call this butt hurt or whatever you want but if anyone knows me I really could care less what a person thinks of me never have cared and never will care. But when someone asks a question how about we try to answer the question to the best of our ability and leave the bullshit out ( except for joking with someone that’s always allowed lol ) Thanks for letting me vent I am done now remember these words of wisdom from the Hippie.
> When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
> Thanks Tom



Hi Tom,

I accept it was bad of me to use the term "idiot" - it is one of those golden rules:  Never say someone was stupid to do XYZ, always say they have done a stupid thing.  If you say they were stupid then (either consciously or sub-consciously) they go through a thought process along the lines "Oh, I'm stupid.  You can't cure stupid, there is no point in me trying to improve, I will always stay stupid".  But if they have"done a stupid thing", that was their choice.  Next time they can make a different choice, they can learn and improve.

I am sorry if my comment offended - I have no excuse other than I'm a Grumpy Old Git who seems to spend a lot of time drumming the "airline lesson" in to apprentices.

I'm sure you are very familiar with numerous reasons why using air to clear swarf from a machine is a silly thing to do.  The obvious safety issues need no discussion, but from my point of view there are two arguments that cannot be denied:

When you cut material you produce swarf.  The swarf falls in the local area around the tool.  If you try to make a nice neat pile of the debris by trying to blow all the particles in to a heap you will fail - the more you blow the wider the debris gets distributed and the bigger the mess you have to clean up - as a wise man once said "Work smarter, not harder".  Of course the tiniest fragments are blown furthest and end up in unexpected places - occasionally one embeds itself in you finger and it hurts.  You can avoid this situation by sweeping down benches and machine rather than blowing sharp shards of metal around the shop

The second point is that the swarf gets blown in to the machine parts - if you use compressed gas to clean a machine you force tiny particles of metal deep between the working surfaces of the machine.  Swarf is forced in to "sealed" bearings in headstocks, between saddle and bed of a lathe, in to the dovetails of milling tables, in to gearboxes.  These tiny particles (mixed with oil) form an extraordinarily effective abrasive compound and result in accelerated wear.

There is an excellent video clip showing this issue - I was discussing this issue with a gentleman called "MrPete" (ex TubalCain) on youtube and he agreed to let me use an edited version of one of his posts to show to my students (which I have done for the last four to five years).  This short sequence from a longer video is distributed with MrPete's permission



I know that there are some people out there who will take the attitude "I don't service and maintain the lathe I work on, so I don't care if I trash the bearings and cause a load of extra maintenance - that is someone else's problem and I don't give a ****".  On the other hand, maybe the lathe is a tool you saved up for, that you care for in your workshop and that you are proud to own - in which case you may rethink using compressed air to clean the machine

All the best,
Ian


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## timo_gross (Apr 23, 2021)

IanN said:


> you may rethink using compressed air to clean the machine
> 
> All the best,
> Ian



Yes caught again using compressed air all the time: To clean various things. I really think everybody with a compressed air supply available does. It is just convenient:

Getting swarf out of a hex bolt head - and into your eye.
Cleaning coolant from the vise and spread it over your lunch. ( only eat lunch in the workshop after machining leaded free machining steel ( or was it lead free Machiningsteel? anyway )
Drying the safety glases .... list goes on....
Some silly questions come to my mind.

Is it necessary to discuss who is offended how quickly? ( assuming no one wanted to offend anyone else in the first place )
If I do something wrong long enough does it become right? Does it become right if someone else gives me money for doing it wrong?
If I do it wrong on purpose, does it become right? If it can be done better does this render it wrong?
Did the anxient Greeks clean their CNC machines with compressed air or not? And does this teach us a lesson for today? And were did they get the electricity from? Why do some CNC Machines have compressed air nozzles?

I thought Ians message was. You do not need all the tools to do anything, some comon practice is not reflected enough and not every "old fashioned" tool like a brush, file or hacksaw should be discarded as not working anymore. They still have their place and sometimes they are underrated.
And for the compressed air: Do not use it without thinking! The swarf does not go away, it just goes somewhere else. A brush or vacuum make it go to a specific somewhere else ( it could be called "away" ).

All that said:

I still think this forum does a decent job to help others out. I try to keep it that way.
I bought a 2nd hand machine it was so nicely cleaned with compressed air that the ball srew of the x-axis was entirely damaged and needed replacement.

How does this happen?

Question: "Where can I buy a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill?"
Answer:   "Do not use compressed air to remove Titanium swarf of unknown density from your machine"
Side comment: "Do not eat Titanium swarf!"

New to the forum I really hope that I can improve my own answering skills for the future. For this thread I consider myself stupid, almost a troll.

Greetings Timo


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## Jasonb (Apr 23, 2021)

I wonder how well these students are equipped for when they have to go out to the real world and earn a living, they won't be presented with an old lathe or manual mill but instead a multi axis machining centre with an air line and gun plumbed in. Not to mention the possibility of air blast cooling or fog buster type systems.

In a similar vein I just looked through a Dormer catalogue and I would say 90% of their solid HSS and Carbide cutters (about 120 types) have the 3 arrow symbol showing that they are suitable for radial, diagonal and AXIAL feed. Insert tooling would also allow the ends to be used in many cases. So not sure where the sweeping statement not to use the end will help them.

While I'm not saying my or others hobby machines can take as heavy cuts as industrial machines the methods can be taken on board


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## jack620 (Apr 23, 2021)

IanN said:


> Never say someone was stupid to do XYZ, always say they have done a stupid thing.



You shouldn’t be saying that either! What kind of training institution are you teaching at that allows you to speak to apprentices like that?


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## IanN (Apr 23, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Yes caught again using compressed air all the time: To clean various things. I really think everybody with a compressed air supply available does. It is just convenient:
> 
> Getting swarf out of a hex bolt head - and into your eye.
> Cleaning coolant from the vise and spread it over your lunch. ( only eat lunch in the workshop after machining leaded free machining steel ( or was it lead free Machiningsteel? anyway )
> ...



Hi Timo,

Thanks for the humour - it makes the world a better place! (Even though we still have to stand two metres away from a joke and it has to wear a mask...)

As you know there are exceptions to every rule - You could have slipped in the 
observation that some machines are designed to use compressed air as a “coolant” when cutting....

All the best,
Ian


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## timo_gross (Apr 23, 2021)

IanN said:


> Hi Timo,
> 
> Thanks for the humour - it makes the world a better place!
> (Even though we still have to stand two metres away from a joke and it has to wear a mask...)
> ...



*Off topic, yet again!  *

That is what I ment with air nozzle.



But which button is it? Mmh? :-/ .... First to answer gets one chinese ER20 collet as reward!


Joking aside the small Chinese milling machine that I bought 2nd hand really had all the swarf in the ball screw nut from compressed air cleaning. I had to take the complete machine apart, buy a new ball screw and nut, modify the ball screw nut, because the original one was much smaller. Had to make a new holder for the nut. Really quite a lot of work to get it fixed. Almost forgot had to change the software too.


Uui I really need to clean that machine. ( always ) Should I really do it I will use a vacuum cleaner and a paint brush. But... the air gun is still used a lot in a lot of situations.

*Back to original post!*

Is a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill something that is really of any use? Serious question! I have one Endmill that is slightly over 4 mm.

 goal of this exercise is to be able to mill a metric keyway in one pass into a shaft without moving side to side.
I never used it so far, maybe it will be convenient to have at one day.

Cheers Timo


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## terryd (Apr 24, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> *Off topic, yet again!  *
> 
> That is what I ment with air nozzle.
> View attachment 124790
> ...


Hi Timo, 

A 4 flute cutter will invariably wander to one side when cutting a slot or keyway.  It's all down to the  cutting geometry leading to unbalanced forces to one side with 4 flutes, that's why so called' 2 flute end mills' are more properly called 'slot drills' as the cutting action is balanced which reduces wander.  It is also the reason that those using 4 flute or end milling cutters for slotting or cutting keyways first cut a narrower slot or keyway and then widen it by using the cutter in profile mode or as you put it "moving side to side".

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## terryd (Apr 24, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Just to be a little different,  I used to grind a half just behind  your D bit end= to take small amounts of swarf-- after pecking from the tailstock poppet.
> No criticism, merely a bit 'doing it my way'
> 
> So thank you- and continued best wishes for the demonstrations
> ...


Hi Norman,

if you look carefully at the 'overhead' picture you can see that there is a small 'pocket' milled behind the cutter head for exactly the same purpose as yours.  It's just not that obvious from the profile picture,

Stay safe and healthy.

TerryD


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## terryd (Apr 24, 2021)

Badhippie said:


> Put me in the idiot class I clean both my Lathes and my mill with compressed air at a reduced psi. As for the hacksaw yep I know how to use one but why would I use a hacksaw over a band saw or a portaband. I believe in letting my tools do the work for me. Work smarter not harder. Please excuse me for being a newbie at this I have only been doing it since 1986 as a profession. Plunge a hole with a endmill omg how taboo. A endmill is only made to cut on its side I guess I don’t even know what to say about that one ( Center Cut ) Now is it the best tool for making a hole maybe not the best tool but it’s in the top 5. If you want a hole and have the equipment and tools to do it then drill it close and finish it by boring to size. I guess again put me in the idiot class I have made thousands of holes with a center cut endmill.
> Most people in here do this as a hobby so to use words like idiots or stupid is completely uncalled for this does nothing for helping a person. Then for us who do this as a profession to hear how stupid we are and have been doing it wrong. Well it’s not the first time I have done something wrong and it won’t be the last time. But I seem to make a damn fine living at it. Now you can call this butt hurt or whatever you want but if anyone knows me I really could care less what a person thinks of me never have cared and never will care. But when someone asks a question how about we try to answer the question to the best of our ability and leave the bullshit out ( except for joking with someone that’s always allowed lol ) Thanks for letting me vent I am done now remember these words of wisdom from the Hippie.
> When a job becomes work it’s time to find another job.
> Thanks Tom


Hi Tom,

I hope that you don't mind me commenting on your post.  Using a traditional end milling cutter for drilling really is a no-no but of course a more modern centre cutting end mill is a different matter.  Ttraditionally slot drills with their centre cutting geometry were used for drilling as well as cutting slots etc, but as cnc machines have developed then the centre cutting tool was developed to save a tool change.  I think that folk point out the dangers of trying to drill with a traditional end milling cutter are doing so for the benefit of the tyro (newbie) who does not have your knowledge or experience, after all this is a 'home' model engineering forum not specifically aimed at professional engineers with all their experience, which of course is much valued.

As for using a hacksaw even though I'm well into my 70s and lack the strength I used to have I still prefer to use a hacksaw for cutting even up to 50mm diameter mild steel, it keeps my muscles well exercised, helping to slow down further deterioration of said muscles.  I am also an amateur woodworker and generally still prefer to use hand tools rather than the power tools that most YouTubers insist are necessary even though I do own some very good machinery it is rarely used.  It gives me great satisfaction to feel the materials I use giving way to my own efforts, planing a piece of timber with a well sharpened hand plane producing crisp, thin and even shavings producing a velvet smooth finish is a joy in itself for example.  The 'journey' should be as enjoyable as the ending.  Plus it saves on gym fees.

I don't use compressed air for my cleaning down, for many reasons discussed here but mostly for safety   When working in industry we used to use it as a matter of course but in my own home workshop I keep the compressed air for the pneumatic tools I posess.  One of my most vivid memories of my apprenticeship were the safety films we were shown in our induction week and that was nearly 60 years ago, one of which involved the dangers of compressed air, mostly to do with metal chips entering parts of the body, especially the eyes (including a close up film of an eye being operated on to remove some swarf driven in by the force of cleaning with compressed air even at low pressures - I can see it as if it was shown last week) but also it was impressed on us the dangers of air embolisms entering the blood stream through the skin which can cause and hse caused death if misused.  Again, most of us with knowledge and experience of such matters take extra care, but a tyro reading about this may not be so aware.  There should aways be caveats in such conversations or when offering advice.

I don't criticise anyone for what they do in the privacy of their own workshop or home, we all have different experiences , knowledge, equipment and skills, but I choose to work my way and I hope that any criticism of or by me is constructive and not the 'trolling' and destructive.  I can only point out things that I have learned in a long career in both engineering and education.  I don't think that discussions of safety are ever 'off-topic'.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## goldstar31 (Apr 24, 2021)

Terry,

my thanks for your interest and  valued comments

Best wishes

Norman


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## clockworkcheval (Apr 24, 2021)

For milling slots I must confess I use any of my limited assortment of endmills that is about 0,5 - 1,0 mm undersized and has cutting edges at the end. I plunge right in with as only precaution centerdrilling first, just like with drills, as the center of the mill will of course not cut. This will leave a small dimple at one end of the slot, which doesn't normally bother me at all. I work to the final dimensions 'moving from side to side'.
In our clubworkshop we have compressed air for cleaning parts and tools - in a closed top wastebin - but the whole thing is positioned in a corner of the shop with a short length of hose far away of any machinetool.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 24, 2021)

Yes but MY simple little home workshop can  act as a horizontal mill and come to think about it, my rotary pivoted vertical slide also is capable of dividing too.

You see I saw the limitations of present knowledge- which can be woefully sparse.

 I have no wish to be rude or offensive- but with what is left of my failing eyesight, I do it the way that it was done in the dim and distant past.

So apologies 

Norman-- at nearly 91


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## clockworkcheval (Apr 24, 2021)

Nothing wrong with the dim and distant past. My grandmother told me that as a 12 year old girl in 1902 she occasionally had to threadle the lathe for my great-grandfather, and that she still can feel the difference between steel and brass.


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## goldstar31 (Apr 24, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Nothing wrong with the dim and distant past. My grandmother told me that as a 12 year old girl in 1902 she occasionally had to threadle the lathe for my great-grandfather, and that she still can feel the difference between steel and brass.



Apologies but if your gradmother was 12 in 1902, she was born in 1890. Maybe , I',having a 'snior moment'


I  used to treadle my mother's( b.1897) Jone's sewing machine.  I also recall a Dakota -DC3 flying int RAF Hendon at weekend ends-- with a registration PH-PBA but in 1949


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## clockworkcheval (Apr 24, 2021)

Your reckoning is correct. And she lived to be 102 years old, independantly, in her own house.


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## SmithDoor (Apr 24, 2021)

What type of metal are you milling ?

If problem i would make two passes.
Most end mill slots i take a under size pass then use correct size mill for last pass so no wobbly slot.

Dave



rrocky said:


> Hullo members, any information where I can purchase a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill? have searched the net   no result.  rrocky


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## Jasonb (Apr 25, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> What type of metal are you milling ?
> 
> If problem i would make two passes.



He says he is making a gear pump so that will imply two overlapping holes so intent would be to plunge with the milling cutter. The unusual size requirement is so there is very little clearance between gear and the wall of the pocket.


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## aarggh (Apr 25, 2021)

jack620 said:


> You shouldn’t be saying that either! What kind of training institution are you teaching at that allows you to speak to apprentices like that?



There's a time and a place for everything, and in general criticism should always be constructive, but you can really only do so much hand holding for grown ups, as there will always be a segment of people who are incapable of the application of common sense with some things, and need "extreme re-reinforcement" to get it through their skulls. God know I've worked with people like that over the years!

And by extreme reinforcement, I mean stating the obvious for those who are incapable of understanding the obvious.

The other difference nowadays is you don't get the requisite smack over the back of the head from the teacher when you did a bone headed thing like we used to cop at school!


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## IanN (Apr 25, 2021)

Jasonb said:


> I wonder how well these students are equipped for when they have to go out to the real world and earn a living, they won't be presented with an old lathe or manual mill but instead a multi axis machining centre with an air line and gun plumbed in. Not to mention the possibility of air blast cooling or fog buster type systems.
> 
> In a similar vein I just looked through a Dormer catalogue and I would say 90% of their solid HSS and Carbide cutters (about 120 types) have the 3 arrow symbol showing that they are suitable for radial, diagonal and AXIAL feed. Insert tooling would also allow the ends to be used in many cases. So not sure where the sweeping statement not to use the end will help them.
> 
> While I'm not saying my or others hobby machines can take as heavy cuts as industrial machines the methods can be taken on board



Hi Jason,

I'm not sure which UK apprentice syllabus documents you looked through in order to come to your evaluation of UK apprentice education, but I would guess you only read the content of the first year.

In their first year (full time at college) they cover marking out and measuring (using surface plates, verniers (calipers, height gauges and protractors) and micrometers, (after mastering analogue instruments they progress to digital), slip gauges, sine bars, etc), hand fitting (the syllabus no longer includes "scraping"), work holding (including jigs and fixtures), toolmakers buttons, etc.  Regarding machining, they start using mills and lathes using hand feed and dials, after successfully completing some test pieces, they are taught to use power feed, after further test pieces they are then are allowed to use DROs

After the first year, the course becomes one day a week at college and four days at their place of employment.  Units on the course include:  CNC, CAD (2D and 3D), CAM, Engineering Principles (mechanics - statics and dynamics), Electrical Principles and Electronics, Industrial Control (PLCs and microcontrollers), Pneumatics and Hydraulics, Material Science, Thermodynamics, Engineering maths (to mop up all the important bits of maths not covered in other units) and certification in welding.

There are other "optional" units - these are not optional for the apprentice, but are selected by the employer - an aerospace company would select different optional units for their apprentices than a company working in car manufacture for example.

Some students leave the course before the end of the five/six year full programme - a number leave at the end of the second year when they are certified welders to follow a career in welding, for example.

How does this compare with the education given to machinists in the USA?  (A genuine question on my part - I truly have no idea how you educate your machinists)

All the best,
Ian


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## IanN (Apr 25, 2021)

aRM said:


> Can't just help but put in my Two Cents Worth  here as we are also in "the Idiot Class" as so crassly  painted by the Maestro !!
> We have joined this most knowledgable Forum not to create any Models or the like but  just so's we can LEARN from some of the good Guys here who'd share their Brilliance, Expertise and Experience in Machining and Technical Works.
> Regrettably,  all this has taken a different meaning to some Folks here.
> All we can do now is stand by the roadside and shake our heads ashamedly.
> ...



Hi aRM,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your comments, I only check forums once or twice a week.

As I said to Tom, you are quite right to pull me up for my frustrated reference to "idiots".  As I stated, I teach engineering apprentices (I don't know your background, but if you are a qualified machinist or engineer, remember "trade school"?).  Over a five year period we try to drum in certain knowledge but there are a couple of areas where we know, deep down, we are probably wasting our time.  "Blowing down" a machine is one of these areas.  For one day a week we can talk about it, show the evidence, all agree it is a foolish practice, but on the other four days the students are at their place of work and see older, more experienced machinists doing what we have told them they should never do.

A few students may remember and follow good practice for the rest of their lives, but most will fall in to bad habits.  They cannot justify what they do, but they do it anyway.

I'm sure you will have been in discussions with people who clearly know they are wrong but refuse to accept it.  The situation is easy to recognise - When they cannot show that your points are factually incorrect, and when they cannot provide any evidence to support their view, they will often resort to one (or both) of two tactics:

1) Change the arguement in to something they CAN win - avoid answering questions, talk about other topics - politicians do it all the time

2) Say "But eveybody does it" - Taking pens and paper home from your place of work?  The occasional use of recreational chemicals? "Don't worry! Everybody does it".  Well no they don't and it doesn't make it right or sensible.

When you see those tactics in use, you know you have "won" the arguement and there is no point in further discussion because the other side will simply not accept reality

Maybe some people will view the video I posted and think "I've been blowing down my lathe for years, when you sit and think about it, perhaps it is not such a good idea.  Maybe that is why I had to replace the headstock bearings.  Perhaps I should dismantle the lathe saddle/apron and just check the feed gears...." and others will carry on without questioning their believes "Well I've done it for years, everybody does it, that video is just fake news..."

I appologise again if my inappropriate use of the word "idiot" offended.  Like you, I am a member of a nunmber of forums in order to learn - I've been in engineering for over 50 years, I'm past retirment age, but I still learn new things and pick up bright ideas from forums such as this, and I'm still working because engineering is fun.  I spend all day doing what I love to do, and at the end of the month, they pay me!

All the best,
Ian


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## SmithDoor (Apr 25, 2021)

Jasonb said:


> He says he is making a gear pump so that will imply two overlapping holes so intent would be to plunge with the milling cutter. The unusual size requirement is so there is very little clearance between gear and the wall of the pocket.


That sounds steel or cast iron if that is case then HSS cutter would work.
It also sounds like this new pump some adjustment you could use a standard cutter.
or use a tool post grinder on a HHS cutter and grind to size.

Dave


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## Jasonb (Apr 26, 2021)

I think on the Demon V8 it is set into the end of the engine block which is aluminium.

Yes I did suggest skimming a thou or two off the crests of the gears so a fractional imperial cutter would give a close fit, though I would not bee keen to plunge on an item like this as the bottom of the hole won't be truely flat so the pump wont work quite as well with small gaps.


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## Badhippie (Apr 26, 2021)

God I wished I had the luxury of having  CNC or have somebody repair the equipment I use that would be great. I would like to touch on the cleaning of mill or lathes. You might be correct to some extent about blowing metal in places it don’t belong. But don’t you think that brushing off the equipment also puts metal in the nook and cranny’s of the equipment???
    Same way as using coolant will wash debris into places it don’t belong. And using air to cool cutting tools. 
If your wipers and way covers are in good shape this should stop most of the debris. 

Also this is happening as you use the machine debris are working there way under and in between and over places that cause wear. Something that has not been mentioned and apparently is not in the training or schooling in some parts of the world. Is the safety hazard that blowing equipment off poses. Yes blowing off the equipment is a safety hazard.

Is using air the best thing to do?? No it’s probably not. But it is more common then most people know. People that work in a production shop don’t have much time in between set ups and jobs. So air is becoming used more because it’s faster to use. Don’t get me wrong that don’t make it right. But I think that’s some of the problems today. 
BTW have you looked at keyway end mills they are slightly undersized and are square cut. 
They are what I use most of the time to cut keyways in shafts


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## chrsbrbnk (Apr 26, 2021)

You are supposed to clean the change gears once in a while, and a little oil might help. Tubal cain's video just shows an incomplete job of cleaning  and lubrication. professional shops pretty much all have air compressors  ,wonder why?    The plunged end mill approach of hole sizing and making  just has varying amounts of accuracy in size and location only experience is going to tell you when and what is appropriate.  A shop I worked in  ground down  the od of a lot of end mills just for hole sizing


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## SmithDoor (Apr 26, 2021)

They make 11/32" end mill that is .34375" 
That is only .002 off size odds are after milling it will be very close.

Dave



rrocky said:


> Hullo members, any information where I can purchase a .346" 4 flute carbide endmill? have searched the net   no result.  rrocky


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## IanN (Apr 27, 2021)

Badhippie said:


> God I wished I had the luxury of having  CNC or have somebody repair the equipment I use that would be great. I would like to touch on the cleaning of mill or lathes. You might be correct to some extent about blowing metal in places it don’t belong. But don’t you think that brushing off the equipment also puts metal in the nook and cranny’s of the equipment???
> Same way as using coolant will wash debris into places it don’t belong. And using air to cool cutting tools.
> If your wipers and way covers are in good shape this should stop most of the debris.
> 
> ...



Hi Mr Hippy,

I think we are in total agreement with each other:

Swarf will always go places you don’t want it

Cleaning with a brush or shop vac is not perfect

“Blowing down” a machine is not a good idea and will introduce more problems and make the existing ones worse

I agree on every point

You mention “wipers” - as an aside I’ve noticed many people do not wash and clean the felt pads that are used as wipers.  In our college shops, these are washed and dried once every 6-8 weeks as the machines are in almost constant use.  If you have a home shop you may only work in there once a week, and use your machine occasionally, so the wet felt wipers may be resting on the bed ways for a couple of weeks.  If you use soluble cutting fluid I would wash and dry the wipers at the end of session

All the best
Iann


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## IanN (Apr 27, 2021)

chrsbrbnk said:


> You are supposed to clean the change gears once in a while, and a little oil might help. Tubal cain's video just shows an incomplete job of cleaning  and lubrication. professional shops pretty much all have air compressors  ,wonder why?    The plunged end mill approach of hole sizing and making  just has varying amounts of accuracy in size and location only experience is going to tell you when and what is appropriate.  A shop I worked in  ground down  the od of a lot of end mills just for hole sizing



Hi Chrsbrbnk,

Do you believe the debris shown in the video is the result of natural wear of the gears?

We have a differing opinion on the problem shown.  You favour ignoring the cause and curing the symptoms to hide the true issue.  I prefer to solve the source of the problem

I am aware of the reasons why industrial shops have air supplies.  In our college shops we have piped air - without it we could not operate pneumatic chucks or the numerous air-tools in common use.  Do you seriously believe it is provided to “blow down” machines?

All the best,
Ian


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## Badhippie (Apr 27, 2021)

Our wipers here in the states are mostly made of rubber. Or have been replaced with rubber. 
  There are some older units that still have felt
Thanks 
Tom


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## Jasonb (Apr 27, 2021)

Seems Haas cater for both schools of thought.


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## chrsbrbnk (Apr 27, 2021)

It's pretty obvious the crap on the gears is blown in from the air hose , its also pretty obvious no one has looked in there  cleaned them up and lubricated them.
In the industrial shops I 've worked in , visited, and several I've seen on the internet virtually all the machine/work stations  had air nozzles , most with quick connects to address other operations.   The primary exception was around the grinders that were cleaned with vacuum cleaners or  brushes. Several of the newer enclosed cnc machines have both a coolant hand spray nozzle and an hand held air nozzle. Application of all them require some amount intelligence while using. I suppose one could take a poll  and figure out the reality of use.


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