# Is it possible to set up an apartment shop?



## MechMan183

So right now I live in an apartment, but I am really eager to start doing some machining work. My question is, is this doable with small hobby machine tools? I noticed that Sherline has a page on their website called "Compact Sherline Workshops:" http://www.sherline.com/shops.htm 

On it they show miniature workshops. They say the following:

*If you have an apartment or condominium you don't have to be left out of the fun of making fine, small projects. These machines make little more noise than a sewing machine and the mess they make can be cleaned up with a small vacuum cleaner or mini-shopvac.*

My question is, is this really true? And would this apply to other mini-machine tool manufacturers as well? 

Thanks


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## 10K Pete

Absolutely! We've seen lots of home shops in tiny spaces, fully equipped and producing really great work. Cruise the various forums and look for the 'show us your shop' type threads.

Pete


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## Hopper

Yes it is quite do-able. Like most of the good things in life it might require some compromises. You have to either use a spare bedroom for your workshop, or set up in one corner of the living room.

The small Sherline, SIEG lathes etc can be either left on the bench in the corner or picked up and packed away after use. 

It's best if your floor is not carpeted. Swarf and carpets are not a good mix. Or you might put vinyl flooring over the carpet.

A guy I know is just finishing building a Bengs Laura stirling engine on a mini lathe in his apartment living room.


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## MechMan183

The apartment is carpeted, so I will have to have some type of covering in place I suppose. My main concern is noise levels as I don't want any neighbors complaining.


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## gerritv

Very doable: The lathe stores on a shelf under the 2 drawers


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## Chiptosser

Absolutely, doable! 
 There are many people that have a spare room that they use for their hobby room.
The size of the machines  these people use, are no bigger than some large lap top computers. As far as the area covered.

Unless you are using dull tools, You probably make more noise with your Television.
I have saw where people make a box, a base and cover, for each machine that they have. 
This way they can, contain and carry each machine.


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## Tin Falcon

Mechman:
Not reason not to jump in on the hobby if you have the funds and time. While more space and larger machines certainly have and advantage , one can make great small projects with sherline lathes. 
you may want to put a chair mat down to help clean up, the shop vac used for clean up will make more noise than any small mill or lathe 

Tin


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## MechMan183

Wow, thanks everyone, this is all great to hear


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## bazmak

Noise is the main problem,but the small sieg lathe with variable speed
brushless motors are very quiet.Its the cutting noise that may be a problem


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## Griffin

I have a small apartment workshop at the top of a tower block,   its in the back bedroom of a two bedroom apartment and I've just completed a small coke bottle steam engine In it, I have a small X1 mill,  a small sieg lathe,  a bandsaw and numerous other bits and pieces,  of course I have restrictions on how late I can work but I set up at night times and make chips during the day,  the main advantage is nothing goes rusty and nobody gets to see i through the windows.


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## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> Noise is the main problem,but the small sieg lathe with variable speed
> brushless motors are very quiet.Its the cutting noise that may be a problem


 
I was just going to post a question about the cutting. Is it possible to just cut things with like a hacksaw?


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## barnesrickw

My Taig mill and lathe are on a bench in the corner of my 8' x 12' shed, on a 30" x 24" bench. My recommendation is have the ground floor, acoustic foam on the walls and ceiling, and wood floors with a tough finish.


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## bazmak

When I say cutting noise I mean the turning.Any intrupted cuts are noisy
Bar stock can be cut with a hacksaw.I have cut up to 4" dia but its hard work
Turning alum. is quiet.I don't see any problems for you but location is important.Try to stay away from adjoining walls.Is the floor concrete ?


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## gerritv

I had no complaints from SHMBO when I was cutting or milling (Taig milling attachment on lathe).
To prevent vibration transmitting into the concrete floor I made 3 silicone isolaters which sat between the lathe platform and desk. This was very effective. http://hobbies.psgv.ca/chips-contain-yourself/

Another solution might be to get a 'cow mat' from TSC, 1/2" or 3/4" thick recycled rubber.

Cutting you can do by hacksaw or slitting saw. Or get Metalsupermarkets to cut your metal almost to size.


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## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> When I say cutting noise I mean the turning.Any intrupted cuts are noisy
> Bar stock can be cut with a hacksaw.I have cut up to 4" dia but its hard work
> Turning alum. is quiet.I don't see any problems for you but location is important.Try to stay away from adjoining walls.Is the floor concrete ?


 
I don't think it is, I believe it's plywood, although I'm not sure what's underneath the plywood. I am on the ground floor though.


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## Blogwitch

I reckon that if you take away all the machinists in the world that do what you want to do, then at least half the model engineering community would be lost.

In past times, it was even more so (especially in the UK), where 90% of the people lived in little two up, two down town houses (a posh name for terraced). Many years ago I had a full photographic darkroom inside a wardrobe.

If you are careful with your choice of machines, plus living on a ground floor, you shouldn't have any neighbour problems concerning the noise, but you might be a little restricted as to how large you can make something. If there is a her indoors, treat her to a set of radio headphones, and she can watch her programs in peace.

Just go for it and enjoy yourself.

John


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## bazmak

Having a wooden floor would be an advantage for small tools but concrete
would be necessary for large machines.If the machines are small and can be 
carried about (max say the Sieg sc2 ) then rubber mats are ideal as 
anti-vibration mounts. I wholeheartedly say give it a go.Try it out and where possible ask the neirbores if they can hear anything.Save the noisy ops for certain times of day. Keep us posted .If you look at my posts I made a combined toolbox and bench on wheels, it would be ideal for you Regards Barry


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## Cogsy

The Seig C3 is small enough to carry, from memory about 36kg, say 80 pounds or so. Does a good job once it's set up properly too.


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## barnesrickw

If'n you are going to carry, the Taig is nice and light minus the motor.  Never used a Seig, but I think they can cut threads if that is important to you.


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## gerritv

Since you are o n the ground floor things get much easier. Sound tends to travel down, not up.
For cutting metals consider a portable bandsaw, HF has them on sale at present.
I thing Gus is on this forum, he does all his work on a balcony. Cuts metal to size using a portable bandsaw bolted into upright position if memory serves.

My recollection of machining with my Taig, as lathe and milling, was that the noise I perceived was much greater than anyone outside the room noticed.

Gerrit


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## MechMan183

Yes, this shop would just involve small machines right now. When I can afford a workshop with a house attached D) I'll get the bigger machines.



gerritv said:


> Since you are o n the ground floor things get much easier. Sound tends to travel down, not up.
> For cutting metals consider a portable bandsaw, HF has them on sale at present.
> I thing Gus is on this forum, he does all his work on a balcony. Cuts metal to size using a portable bandsaw bolted into upright position if memory serves.
> 
> My recollection of machining with my Taig, as lathe and milling, was that the noise I perceived was much greater than anyone outside the room noticed.
> 
> Gerrit


 
How much noise do bandsaws make? Although I suppose even if very loud, if only used for short periods of time to cut things, the neighbors probably wouldn't mind.


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## bazmak

mall lathe then it will only turn small items.A hacksaw will do all that is requd


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## gerritv

I have turned 3.5" on my Taig, not something I would like to saw off with a hacksaw, steel or aluminum 
It is easy to underestimate what can be done on Taig, Unimat etc. Just look at some of Rudy Kohoupt's work. They are small but very capable.

Gerrit


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## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> So right now I live in an apartment, but I am really eager to start doing some machining work. My question is, is this doable with small hobby machine tools? I noticed that Sherline has a page on their website called "Compact Sherline Workshops:" http://www.sherline.com/shops.htm
> 
> On it they show miniature workshops. They say the following:
> 
> *If you have an apartment or condominium you don't have to be left out of the fun of making fine, small projects. These machines make little more noise than a sewing machine and the mess they make can be cleaned up with a small vacuum cleaner or mini-shopvac.*
> 
> My question is, is this really true? And would this apply to other mini-machine tool manufacturers as well?
> 
> Thanks




This is most certainly true.   You will need to decide how large the machines you buy will be.   The Sherline and Taigs being the smaller you should consider.  For an apartment you would probably want to limit machine size at the upper end to around 150 pounds or so.   The maximum machine size is pretty much a question of what you can easily handle and store.  

You need to select machine size based on your interests, the small machines mean miniature sized models.   The larger machines obviously allow you to do more.    The very talented crew in this forum can give you many suggestions as to machines if you can list out some of your interests.  Another thing to consider is going to a model engineering gathering and talking to some of the people that have their creations on display.   You will be amazed by what people create often with nothing more than a lathe.


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## Wizard69

gerritv said:


> I have turned 3.5" on my Taig, not something I would like to saw off with a hacksaw, steel or aluminum
> 
> It is easy to underestimate what can be done on Taig, Unimat etc. Just look at some of Rudy Kohoupt's work. They are small but very capable.
> 
> 
> 
> Gerrit




This is so true, a trip to a model engineering show like NAMES or Cabin Fever should drive this home.  There are really only two problems with the extremely small machines.  The first is that it can take awhile to achieve you results.   The second is that for some interests capacity wins.  

Another thing to consider, if you get a small machine like a Sherline or Taig it really is a life long investment because the lathe remains useful for small stuff if you later buy a ten or twelve inch swing machine.


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## MechMan183

My main interest right now is just in learning to machine. However model engineering is a big interest as well, and I would like working at that to be part of the learning process. My plan is to set up a 48 inch wide workbench (or a 6 ft wide one if I can find a way to fit it). The lathe and milling machine will probably be stored in a closet. 

The machines can't be too heavy for me to lift right now, however I am clueless as to what size machines I should be seeking. Are there any decently-priced middle-sized lathes hobbyists use, i.e. that are bigger than the mini lathes but not as large as the professional ones? As said model engineering is a big interest, but I might want to be machine bigger things as well. I notice Sieg has what they call mini lathes and bench lathes, both of which are labeled as being for model engineering. Is the bench lathe for bigger model engineering projects?


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## bazmak

I would recommend the Sieg sc2 7x14".About 40kg.I would buy a cheap 2nd hand set of drawers and fit wheels.If you want to spend money the motor mechanics tool chest on wheels would make an ideal workbench.This is one I made when I bought the Sc2 7x16".Gets heavy with all t

he tooling


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## hanermo3

Imho..
There is no "right" answer.
The Sieg C2 / 40 kg is terribly limiting. This is also known as the 7x sized minilathe.

But fabulous work has been produced on them, by lots and lots and lots of people.

Way back, I made an upgraded bench for my 7x, that was a huge success, technically, and a total waste of money and time, commercially.
My super-rigid bench is steel, prestressed concrete, preloaded, rigid mount, 150 kg in mass.
Took about 200 work hours, and 250&#8364; in money.
I can just lift it into place, on my own.

Yes, lathe 40 kg, mount 150 kg.
It made the lathe 2-3x more rigid, and 1/3 the noise.

I should have started with the 8x size lathe, == 100 kg.

Why ?
All my stuff is in steel.
Many workpieces are about 100-120 mm in the bigger axel.

A 7x series lathe is far too small to work in steel, in 7" sizes.
This is common, in lathes, and rule of thumb is half the size of typical workpiece.
Ie a 7x is good for about 3.5 ".
A 12x for 6" or so.

My mount is 90x65x12 cm .. so size of very small desk.
An 8" lathe would fit.105 kg.
An 10" would more or less, fit.
A 12x lathe is only 10 cm more, all around. 350 kg.

I would suggest the 8x lathe .. especially if you work with steel.

But every tool is too small.. eventually.
I upgraded to an industrial 12x, and then upgraded the 12x, vastly.
Its probably the most upgraded 12x24 in the world.

(Industrial CNC refit I did. 2.5 kW AC brushless servo spindle. C axis, etc)

So .. there is no "right" answer.
I highly recommend heavier is better. Rigidity is everything. More mass = much better.

The 8x is easily lifted into place by 2 helpers. Or get it delivered by seller.
Heavier = less noisy. 
Bigger motors = less noisy (lower sound= less irritating).

Everything is a compromise in engineering.


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## BillWood

What sort of saws do people use in small workspaces ?

Are there appropriately sized bandsaws ? Surely the 4x6 are too big ?

I have seen Myfordboys hacksaw and other similar powered hacksaws in popular mechanics magazines.

I successfully implemented the idea below and converted  a 14" wood bandsaw by powering it from the back end of the lathe headstock to get the right speed for cutting metal - I'm thinking I could also do that for a 9" wood bandsaw. Wish I'd been smart enough to think of that myself but saw it on Hobby Machinist Forum.


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## MechMan183

hanermo3 said:


> Imho..
> There is no "right" answer.
> The Sieg C2 / 40 kg is terribly limiting. This is also known as the 7x sized minilathe.
> 
> But fabulous work has been produced on them, by lots and lots and lots of people.
> 
> Way back, I made an upgraded bench for my 7x, that was a huge success, technically, and a total waste of money and time, commercially.
> My super-rigid bench is steel, prestressed concrete, preloaded, rigid mount, 150 kg in mass.
> Took about 200 work hours, and 250&#8364; in money.
> I can just lift it into place, on my own.
> 
> Yes, lathe 40 kg, mount 150 kg.
> It made the lathe 2-3x more rigid, and 1/3 the noise.
> 
> I should have started with the 8x size lathe, == 100 kg.
> 
> Why ?
> All my stuff is in steel.
> Many workpieces are about 100-120 mm in the bigger axel.
> 
> A 7x series lathe is far too small to work in steel, in 7" sizes.
> This is common, in lathes, and rule of thumb is half the size of typical workpiece.
> Ie a 7x is good for about 3.5 ".
> A 12x for 6" or so.
> 
> My mount is 90x65x12 cm .. so size of very small desk.
> An 8" lathe would fit.105 kg.
> An 10" would more or less, fit.
> A 12x lathe is only 10 cm more, all around. 350 kg.
> 
> I would suggest the 8x lathe .. especially if you work with steel.
> 
> But every tool is too small.. eventually.
> I upgraded to an industrial 12x, and then upgraded the 12x, vastly.
> Its probably the most upgraded 12x24 in the world.
> 
> (Industrial CNC refit I did. 2.5 kW AC brushless servo spindle. C axis, etc)
> 
> So .. there is no "right" answer.
> I highly recommend heavier is better. Rigidity is everything. More mass = much better.
> 
> The 8x is easily lifted into place by 2 helpers. Or get it delivered by seller.
> Heavier = less noisy.
> Bigger motors = less noisy (lower sound= less irritating).
> 
> Everything is a compromise in engineering.


 
Do lathes come in parts? For example, I noticed that the Harbor Freight Central Machinery 8x lathe is 256 lbs. If I had to move it by myself, could I take it apart and move the components, then re-assemble? Or is it all pre-assembled? 

Also, what are the dimensions of these lathes? For example, the 8x lathe says 8 inches by 12 inches...is that the lathe itself, or how big of a workpiece it can handle? I saw a size comparison between the 7x and 8x Harbor Freights and the 8x is significantly larger.


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## GailInNM

Many years ago, think 1960 era, I was working on a communications project in the arctic regions. I had a Unimat lathe with milling column and table that was in a wooden box that I carried around to the various sites. Built several steam/air engines with that set up over a two year period.  Not convenient, but it can be done.

On the saw issue, there are a number of hand held cutoff band saws that can be mounted on a stand.  Years ago I saw one that could be locked vertical and a small table mounted on it for profiling. Metal Supermarket had a cutoff one for small quick jobs when their big saw was tied up. It was a name brand but IL don't remember what. Regardless of brand they all look something like this.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Portable-Bandsaw-with-Stand/G8692

Gail in NM


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## sssfox

MechMan183 said:


> Also, what are the dimensions of these lathes? For example, the 8x lathe says 8 inches by 12 inches...is that the lathe itself, or how big of a workpiece it can handle? I saw a size comparison between the 7x and 8x Harbor Freights and the 8x is significantly larger.



The dimensions you supplied are the maximum theoretical diameter and length of the workpiece.  As a rough size, you can double those to get the dimensions of a small lathe that comes without a stand.  In your example, I would use 16" x 16" x 24" or slightly larger as the lathe size.

One other thing you need to keep in mind is the storage space required for the tooling.  I bought a rather large hand-held toolbox when I bought my 7x lathe.  I had it completely filled within two days.  Now, I have a base unit sized roll around mechanics tool chest and it is busting at the seams.  The tooling is very heavy, too.  You can't fill up a dresser and expect the drawers to operate as you would normally expect.


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## MechMan183

Do lathes come assembled or do you have to assemble them? I ask because the ability to disassemble would aid me in moving a heavy lathe.



sssfox said:


> The dimensions you supplied are the maximum theoretical diameter and length of the workpiece. As a rough size, you can double those to get the dimensions of a small lathe that comes without a stand. In your example, I would use 16" x 16" x 24" or slightly larger as the lathe size.


 
Thanks for the information.



> One other thing you need to keep in mind is the storage space required for the tooling. I bought a rather large hand-held toolbox when I bought my 7x lathe. I had it completely filled within two days. Now, I have a base unit sized roll around mechanics tool chest and it is busting at the seams. The tooling is very heavy, too. You can't fill up a dresser and expect the drawers to operate as you would normally expect.


 
I look forward to this "problem"


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## sssfox

All the ones I am aware of come assembled.
Most of the Chinese ones need to be disassembled to clean the packing grease off everything before you can use it.  The tailstock is easy to remove as is the carriage/cross slide.  The headstock is usually aligned, so if you remove it, you have to realign it when you put it back.  In my opinion, it's not practical to remove the head on a regular basis just for that reason.  By far, most of the weight is in the head/bed assembly.

One other point, it is impossible to keep the metal swarf contained and you can't get it out of carpet.  Even coating everything in plastic doesn't prevent the swarf getting into everything.  It's like cat litter.  If you have a cat, you know what I mean.  Also like sand if you live near a beach.


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## MechMan183

sssfox said:


> One other point, it is impossible to keep the metal swarf contained and you can't get it out of carpet. Even coating everything in plastic doesn't prevent the swarf getting into everything. It's like cat litter. If you have a cat, you know what I mean. Also like sand if you live near a beach.


 
How do people engage in machining then in apartments?


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## canadianhorsepower

MechMan183 said:


> How do people engage in machining then in apartments?



Build your shop to the size you can.

I think you are smart enough to figure  out
a way to pick up your swarf 

:wall::wall:


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## sssfox

I have a 7x lathe and a small mill in my dining room.
I have hardwood floors and that helps, but I vacuum constantly.
I worked on the lathe for half an hour this afternoon and I swept and vacuumed three times.
It's a constant problem.  Aluminum and brass aren't too bad, but steel and especially cast iron throw chips for many feet.

Steel/iron swarf rusts when it sits in carpet for a while. It makes little orange spots that don't go away. It can be better or worse, depending on humidity and where you live. I live in Florida, two blocks from a bay, so it's especially bad. 

  I've only known one person who had his tools set up in an apartment bedroom and he removed the carpet when he moved in and put it back when he moved out.  The owner said that was preferable to leaving it in place.  It took him half an hour to take it up and 45 minutes to put it down.

If that wasn't an option, I believe I would buy a large area rug and cover the entire work area.  Just plan on throwing it away when you leave.


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## MechMan183

canadianhorsepower said:


> Build your shop to the size you can.
> 
> I think you are smart enough to figure out
> a way to pick up your swarf
> 
> :wall::wall:


 
The impression I got from sssfox was that it wasn't able to be picked up, that was what I meant. Of course if it gets around but can be picked up, then that's just a matter of some vacuuming and a dustbuster.


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## sssfox

It can be picked up, but it has sharp edges that stick to any fibers, like clothing or carpet.  I have never been able to vacuum it out of carpet.  I guess it could depend on the type of carpet, some is denser than others and the quality of the vacuum.  It sticks to your shoes, so it gets tracked all over.

Washing detergent seems to accelerate rusting.  I have found a lot of rusty spots on my clothes right after machining and then washing/drying.  Now, I have several shirts that I make sure I wear when machining steel/cast iron.  I even tried removing swarf from my clothes with a magnet, but I never seemed to get all of it, hence the rust spots.

I'm not trying to discourage you from machining in your apartment.  In fact, I hope you do.  I'm just trying to make you aware of issues that you may not expect.


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## canadianhorsepower

sssfox said:


> It would be nice to see your shop  :hDe:
> we could all use it as an example.
> or any post you are working on matter of fack
> 
> cheers


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## MechMan183

sssfox said:


> It can be picked up, but it has sharp edges that stick to any fibers, like clothing or carpet. I have never been able to vacuum it out of carpet. I guess it could depend on the type of carpet, some is denser than others and the quality of the vacuum. It sticks to your shoes, so it gets tracked all over.
> 
> Washing detergent seems to accelerate rusting. I have found a lot of rusty spots on my clothes right after machining and then washing/drying. Now, I have several shirts that I make sure I wear when machining steel/cast iron. I even tried removing swarf from my clothes with a magnet, but I never seemed to get all of it, hence the rust spots.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you from machining in your apartment. In fact, I hope you do. I'm just trying to make you aware of issues that you may not expect.


 
Sure thing, and those are good things to know. Unfortunately, this apartment is fully carpeted, so I will have to try covering it up with something each time I suppose. A Makerspace recently opened up about a half hour from me, I might also be able to transport a mini lathe and milling machine to that too to do work.


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## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> Sure thing, and those are good things to know. Unfortunately, this apartment is fully carpeted, so I will have to try covering it up with something each time I suppose. A Makerspace recently opened up about a half hour from me, I might also be able to transport a mini lathe and milling machine to that too to do work.




You really don't want to be moving the larger tools around like that.     The exception would be smaller machines like Sherlines and watch makers lathes.   In either case I think what you are missing here is that it isn't just the lathe that you need to carry, tooling ends being as heavy as the lathe and bulky.   

Chip control is a real problem.   One thing that will help is a partial enclosure and a chuck cover or guard.   Putting pieces of lexan in place in front of the cutting tool can help too.  Think of magnets.    The idea is to get the chips to fall down into the lathe enclosure instead of flying all over.  

This will not however contain all the chips.   A cheap solution would be a piece of plywood laid below the work area.  Almost anything will help keep the chips out of the rug.   


The type of tooling can be an issue too.  You need to balance long stringy swarf against small chips from a chip breaking tools.   


I should mention that I generally find mills to be worst than lathes when it comes to chip containment.     It is very much a 360 degree problem on a mill.  


By the way if there is a makers space being set up locally it might be worthwhile to rent time on the machine tools there.   This would be a good way to get started and learn what sort of machines are suitable for your needs.  


Speaking of carpet, does that include the kitchen?    You don't often see carpets in such places.


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## Brian Rupnow

You can definitely set up a small machine shop in your apartment. Just be aware that your neighbors on each side, above you, and below you are probably going to hate you. Is it possible---yes, that is a given. Just be prepared for the consequences.


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## MechMan183

Wizard69 said:


> Speaking of carpet, does that include the kitchen? You don't often see carpets in such places.


 
No carpet in the kitchen, however I live with my mom right now, and no way is she going to allow machine tools and machining in the kitchen 

The Makerspaces do allow for one to store their tools there so I could maybe do that. Using their machine tools to gain experience also is a good idea.


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## MechMan183

Brian Rupnow said:


> You can definitely set up a small machine shop in your apartment. Just be aware that your neighbors on each side, above you, and below you are probably going to hate you. Is it possible---yes, that is a given. Just be prepared for the consequences.


 
Well luckily, I only have neighbors directly above me. There is one set of neighbors next door, but they are separate from the room I would like to put the machine tools in via a hallway and then a wall with very good sound insulation. It's the ceiling that they didn't put any soundproofing in.


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## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> No carpet in the kitchen, however I live with my mom right now, and no way is she going to allow machine tools and machining in the kitchen
> 
> The Makerspaces do allow for one to store their tools there so I could maybe do that. Using their machine tools to gain experience also is a good idea.




You never know about your mothers reaction.    If set up on a roll around cart with suitable chip control a lathe might not be that bad.   Besides there already are a bunch of tools in the kitchen that make a mess, just point to the mixer.  

A warning about Makerspaces, they drain money from you.   This can be a significant negative with respect to your machining budget.   The problem here, that you might not be aware of, is that the cost of a lathe is easily doubled once you start  buying or creating the required support tooling.   One piece of hardware that you will need is a good bench grinder for sharpening and creating HSS tooling.  You can use insert tooling to a certain extent but you really need to be able to grind and use HSS tooling. You need to consider tools like micrometers, vernier, squares and so forth, it all adds up quickly.

Another thing to consider is that Makerspaces generally allow tool boxes but may not be so accepting of machine tools.  You need to check policies.  Just remember the monthly fee could buy you a lot of tools and supplies.


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## ldsgeek

So I did this, SWMBO agreed to it as well. Concrete floor (I'm on the first, wooden for the second), electric outlets and a light right over the bench. Under the tarp is a HF 4x6 bandsaw as well.


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## MechMan183

Wizard69 said:


> Another thing to consider is that Makerspaces generally allow tool boxes but may not be so accepting of machine tools. You need to check policies. Just remember the monthly fee could buy you a lot of tools and supplies.


 
Yes, it's all something I'll have to balance. The initial reason I was researching Makerspaces is so that I can do woodworking, as that is pretty much impossible in this apartment with all the dust and noise that would result (can't hammer quietly). I know the one Makerspace will allow you to rent a whole private space/room for yourself, not sure of the cost though.


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## Tin Falcon

Mechman

there has certainly been a lot of advice given here. 
And there are lots of options and variations. 
The plus side of setting up a small shop with sherline tools is IMHO a decent investment you will have them for a long time and if you ever decide to sell them you will get a chunk of money back. Not likely everything you put out but se lle vi  . 

Maker spaces vary as far as options and costs.  the ones I have seen that offer metalworking and woodworking often charge just a bit more for a combined membership. So If your main focus is woodworking and you are determined to join a makerspace to do woodworking it may make sense to do the metalworking option. Also some MS will rent storage lockers or closet space  to secure tools supplies works in progress etc so you do not have to take everything home at the end of the day. or rent a whole room.    
the plus size of a maker space is access to tools you would likely never buy and space but  like any other rental at the end of the month your money is gone never to be seen again. 

As far as a home shop. 


1) NOISE the tool that will produce the most noise is a shop vac so unless the neighbors sleep during the day or you run it late at night should not be a problem. 
2) the carpet  I can think of many ways to cover carpet  . you only need 
 3)  Space  you really just need to be a bit creative. This problem has been around since the beginning of the hobby of home machining. People have been machining  in small to tiny shops for over a hundred years. People have set up shops in closets, attics, basements, sheds and yes apartments.    
4) It is up to you only you can decide what kind of shop to have and where to set it up. 
Tin


----------



## goldstar31

I've already  added another 'like' because I' ve just become a widower. A very old one at almost 86 years and suffer dreadfully from cold weather. It was 0C this morning and so on. Happily, my son has delivered my little Myford and it will go- where it is warm. It will do a lot of things and will keep what is left of the old grey matter active.
I've a lot more difficult administrative work in consequence  but worrying about a few turnings is very low in my order of priorities.

Now posting photographs here is going to be an early  challenge. 

Enjoy- whilst you are able

Norman


----------



## MechMan183

Just wanted to say thank you to all who have contributed information here, it has all been very helpful


----------



## Tin Falcon

You are welcome stay in touch let us know how things go for you. 
Tin


----------



## MechMan183

So I read a good review for the Micro Mark MicroLux 7x16 lathe over at mini-lathe.com . This lathe apparently is the same as the various 7x12 lathes made by Sieg, however it is longer and has some additional features to it specified by Micro Mark (being longer being one of the features). Since it is longer and rather unique in this sense in comparison to the other 7x12 lathes, my question is does it need its own specific 7x16 tooling, or would the 7x12 tooling for the other lathes fit it?


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> So I read a good review for the Micro Mark MicroLux 7x16 lathe over at mini-lathe.com . This lathe apparently is the same as the various 7x12 lathes made by Sieg, however it is longer and has some additional features to it specified by Micro Mark (being longer being one of the features). Since it is longer and rather unique in this sense in comparison to the other 7x12 lathes, my question is does it need its own specific 7x16 tooling, or would the 7x12 tooling for the other lathes fit it?




For the most part it should take the same tooling.    However people are often advised to buy screw machine length drill bits for their mini lathes.   The idea being that it helps deal with the limited distance between centers.  Obviously with more distance between centers this doesn't matter as much.    You can still get into situations where short drill bits help though.  

Related here is that part of the reason people need shorter drill bits is because they are using a drill chuck.   Sometimes morse taper drill bits make a lot of sense.   But those can make sense on the short lathes too.  

Beyond that everything that works on the short machines should work fine here.   At least to the best of my knowledge, I went the 9x20 route and frankly I like the longer distances between centers.  I actually purchased my 9x20 a long time ago before Micro Mark had this model on the market.  I may have been very tempted by this offering.    The one thing I wish my machine had that the Mini Lathe has is the bolted on chucks, I do not like the screw on chucks at all after having the lathe for a bit.


----------



## bazmak

x16 and it is the same as the the other 7s with a longer bed
I bought a version with cam lock tailstock as std.All tooling is the same
and the extra bed length worthwhile without additional weight
I did a thread on all the mods under Bazmak which made it a nice lathe
apart from giving me hours of pleasure.Highly recommend


----------



## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> x16 and it is the same as the the other 7s with a longer bed
> I bought a version with cam lock tailstock as std.All tooling is the same
> and the extra bed length worthwhile without additional weight
> I did a thread on all the mods under Bazmak which made it a nice lathe
> apart from giving me hours of pleasure.Highly recommend


 
Is that the thread on the Sieg SC4 lathe?


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## bazmak

Hi mechman,no the post is under Bazmak diary of the sc3 7x16 mini lathe
After doing and enjoying a host of mods the motor blew so I sold it
and bought the sc4.Lots of threads under bazmak diaries you might find interesting


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## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> Hi mechman,no the post is under Bazmak diary of the sc3 7x16 mini lathe
> After doing and enjoying a host of mods the motor blew so I sold it
> and bought the sc4.Lots of threads under bazmak diaries you might find interesting


 
Ahh okay, coolbeans, I see it now


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## RonGinger

I have a high torque 7x16 lathe from LittleMachineShop.com  I am doing a CNC conversion on it to be be the machine for the build class at TheCNCworkshop.com in June. We will have 12 guys all going home with a running  CNC lathe.

I have pretty well torn this one apart and have found it to be a fine little machine. it had a few sharp edges that needed some deburring, but I think, for it size, it is going to make an excellent machine. I have all the conversion work done and expect my motors to arrive later today form CNC4PC.com I should be making parts in a day or two.

I have been planning to do a build log on this project but have not found the 'round toit' yet. I have been taking photos along the way.

I would look closely at the LMS lathe in comparison to the MicroMart one


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## MechMan183

How much modification do these machines need before you can use them to make parts, or could you use them out of the box to make parts even if there are some flaws? I ask because as a strict beginner, I doubt I would know what I was even looking at in terms of flaws, let alone how to fix them.


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## goldstar31

MechMan183 said:


> How much modification do these machines need before you can use them to make parts, or could you use them out of the box to make parts even if there are some flaws? I ask because as a strict beginner, I doubt I would know what I was even looking at in terms of flaws, let alone how to fix them.


 
Apart from removing preservative greases and subsequent lubt=rication. I would caution you NOT to modify.
Instead, I would suggest that you make nice little bits of tooling which will improve familiarity with the lathe. Make a lathe tool height thing. Make a few tee bolts, Make a set of holders for taps and dies, Make boring bars.

Make something which is just within your improving capabilities. You'll be surprised how useful little half hour jobs are.

Today, I made a set of holding down bolts for my new/old lathe. A length of studding, a few washers and nuts and a couple of spanners. Next, I'm going to make a thing from a bit of round, half it and use it to measure from.

As simple as that

Regards

Norman


----------



## bazmak

You can use them straight out of the box and they are reasonably accurate
Once you have made a few things like a test piece parallel,about 1"dia as long
as possible between h,stock and centre and adjust to get parallel you can the start on mods.I must say I found the mods very enjoyable and a good way to
get to know your machine.There are lots of sites just google sieg lathe mods
its a whole new world out there.If you can find my threads under Bazmak
I described everything I did in order to improve the lathe,all from my experience and all other peoples.I was a little wary of stripping down the lathe at first but after a while became easy to understand how everything fits together.One important mod is to make tapered gibs,i found it easy even
without a mill. Regards barry


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## Cogsy

I bought a Sieg C3 as my first lathe and had no idea what I was doing, but I followed one of the setup procedures you can find online and it worked out to be easy. Here's a LINK to a site with lots of info.


----------



## MechMan183

Another question, for machining in an apartment, will I need cutting fluid or can I just machine dry? Also, what is the purpose of cutting fluid if one can just go without it?


----------



## goldstar31

There will be a lot of disagreement but a small paint brush with a dab of cooking oil might suffice. It will leave the place smelling of kitchen.

I use lard oil.

Regards


Norman


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## bazmak

I mainly cut dry.A coolant system has the advantage of keeping the tool cool and clearing the chips but is too messy for most home machinists
Carbide tips work good dry but not as good a finish.I use a squirt of WD40. A MUST FOR ULUMINIUM
Great for tapping and does help for machining My advice for you in an apartment is to cut dry and keep a can of Wd40 handy.A small paint brush to clear chips to avoid double cutting and a dab of veg. oil works ok
We are all different so suck it and see.Working in your bedroom is not the same as in a full workshop with coolant systems etc.Try to contact a fellow member local,buy him a beer and see how he does things. Regards barry


----------



## MechMan183

What do you all consider to be the largest lathe an apartment should have (noise-wise)? For example, I have also been looking at the Grizzly 10" x 22" Bench lathe (weighs 330 lbs and is 46 inches long), the Grizzly 4000 9" x 19" Bench lathe (250 lbs and 37 inches), and the Grizzly 8" x 16" Variable-Speed lathe (166 lbs, 36 inches). 

All of these would still fit on the workbench I am planning on getting and to move them as needed, I figure I would get something like the Harbor Freight Cherry Picker folding engine hoist and use that to move the lathe off the workbench and onto the floor as needed if I want to use the bench for something else. However, I don't know if lathes this big would put out too much noise or too many chips is the thing.


----------



## bazmak

W would you want a lathe that size in an apartment.It implys that you are going to machine large chuncks.A definite no no
I find the sc2 variable speed very quiet but when I got the sc4 it was noisy
I would suggest the sc2 vary speed with 14" or 16" bed,still capable of turning large chuncks


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> What do you all consider to be the largest lathe an apartment should have (noise-wise)? For example, I have also been looking at the Grizzly 10" x 22" Bench lathe (weighs 330 lbs and is 46 inches long), the Grizzly 4000 9" x 19" Bench lathe (250 lbs and 37 inches), and the Grizzly 8" x 16" Variable-Speed lathe (166 lbs, 36 inches).


You do realize that you need a fairly strong bench to handle these lathes.   As such you will likely have to fabricate it yourself.  This also means a bench on wheels if you ever expect to move it around.  

Here is another reality: no matter how big your lathe you will find a job where it is too small.   


> All of these would still fit on the workbench I am planning on getting and to move them as needed,


Maybe!   While the working dimensions are similar the actual space used on the bench will vary a bit.   


> I figure I would get something like the Harbor Freight Cherry Picker folding engine hoist and use that to move the lathe off the workbench and onto the floor as needed if I want to use the bench for something else. However, I don't know if lathes this big would put out too much noise or too many chips is the thing.




Moving a lathe on and off a bench is not something you want to do often.  As for machine tools the real noise doesn't start until you cut something.   You can control that noise, to some extent, by adjusting how aggressively you cut.

As to lathes I have a 9x20, which is a nice machine for the price.    However I'm not a real fan of screw on chucks, they effectively reduce machine flexibility.   Given that you might want to consider the smaller machine or something else in the catalog, just realize that is a personal perspective.  

In any event I still haven't seen in this thread a good indication of what you expect to do with the lathe!    Obviously model making is in the works but what are the specifics.  A steam driven locomotive in 7.25" gage requires a much larger lathe than gage one  some guys spend a lifetime building stuff that fits in your hand.


----------



## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> W would you want a lathe that size in an apartment.It implys that you are going to machine large chuncks.A definite no no
> I find the sc2 variable speed very quiet but when I got the sc4 it was noisy
> I would suggest the sc2 vary speed with 14" or 16" bed,still capable of turning large chuncks


 
By "chuncks," do you mean chunks as in large chunks of metal, or chucks, as in machining large chucks to use?


----------



## MechMan183

Wizard69 said:


> You do realize that you need a fairly strong bench to handle these lathes. As such you will likely have to fabricate it yourself. This also means a bench on wheels if you ever expect to move it around.


 
There are benches that are rated for much more than the weight of the lathe. For example, Gladiator Garage Works has benches rated for up to 3,000 lbs. Grizzly also sells stands designed for some of their particular lathes.  

In terms of specifics, I am not sure. That is why I am looking to the bigger lathes if any would be doable. I figure I would move to larger sizes later on in terms of projects, and I am always reading to buy the largest lathe one can.


----------



## goldstar31

If you are working 'indoors' you will be facing many things and some are noise, smells, swarf and finding storage for the mass of stuff that becomes necessary in the pursuit of your hobby.

For the time being, I'd concentrate on a small lathe recalling that you might want a drilling machine and a mill.

Meantime, enjoy


Norman


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## MechMan183

Can the 7x16 do knurling? I was reading that it is poor at that because the amount of pressure required causes the lathe to flex.


----------



## goldstar31

MechMan183 said:


> Can the 7x16 do knurling? I was reading that it is poor at that because the amount of pressure required causes the lathe to flex.


 
I'm guessing but would think that one of your first 'constructions' should be a two wheel scissors knurling tool ( or three).:hDe:

Might I repeat the points about making 'goodies'? You learn and improve your skills. 

For an Easter Present, I'd lash out and buy something like George Thomas's Model Engineers Workshop Manual. There are others but I'm onto my second copy. Wore out my original one You'll have to modify some bits but it is all part of the learning process.

Cheers

Norman


----------



## MechMan183

goldstar31 said:


> I'm guessing but would think that one of your first 'constructions' should be a two wheel scissors knurling tool ( or three).:hDe:
> 
> Might I repeat the points about making 'goodies'? You learn and improve your skills.
> 
> For an Easter Present, I'd lash out and buy something like George Thomas's Model Engineers Workshop Manual. There are others but I'm onto my second copy. Wore out my original one You'll have to modify some bits but it is all part of the learning process.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Norman


 
Thanks, yes both of George Thomas's books I am planning to get


----------



## MechMan183

Another question on the larger (by hobby standards) lathes, but are there any special electrical power requirements for them? For example, I know some hobbyists get like the PM1340GT which is about 1,000 lbs and the South Bend 10K which is about 500 lbs. Do those just use a standard three-prong outlet or would they need special wiring? (though I doubt I would be going that big in the apartment, but just wondering!).


----------



## 10K Pete

MechMan183 said:


> Another question on the larger (by hobby standards) lathes, but are there any special electrical power requirements for them? For example, I know some hobbyists get like the PM1340GT which is about 1,000 lbs and the South Bend 10K which is about 500 lbs. Do those just use a standard three-prong outlet or would they need special wiring? (though I doubt I would be going that big in the apartment, but just wondering!).



My 10K runs from 120 volt 15A standard outlet. I think it actually draws
8 or 9 Amps.

Pete


----------



## MechMan183

10K Pete said:


> My 10K runs from 120 volt 15A standard outlet. I think it actually draws
> 8 or 9 Amps.
> 
> Pete


 
Okay, from what I see, the average electrical outlet in the U.S. is 110-120 volts. Most of the lathes say that is what the motor is, however the 10K says: 110V/220V, single-phase, 60 Hz. Don't know what the 220V part means, I assume it must be okay though if yours runs from a standard outlet.


----------



## RonGinger

Larger electric motor, usually over about 1/2 hp, are better when run at the higher 220v supply. That reduces the starting current and motor heating. 220v is usually wired into housees, but is almost never wired to other than a kitchen circuit. For a bedroom shop stick with small machines and motors under 1/2hp.


----------



## 10K Pete

MechMan183 said:


> Okay, from what I see, the average electrical outlet in the U.S. is 110-120 volts. Most of the lathes say that is what the motor is, however the 10K says: 110V/220V, single-phase, 60 Hz. Don't know what the 220V part means, I assume it must be okay though if yours runs from a standard outlet.



It means that the motor can be easily changed to run from 220VAC.

Pete


----------



## MechMan183

RonGinger said:


> Larger electric motor, usually over about 1/2 hp, are better when run at the higher 220v supply. That reduces the starting current and motor heating. 220v is usually wired into housees, but is almost never wired to other than a kitchen circuit. For a bedroom shop stick with small machines and motors under 1/2hp.


 
Don't think I could go that small. The Grizzly 7" x 12" for example is a 3/4 hp motor.


----------



## goldstar31

MechMan183 said:


> Don't think I could go that small. The Grizzly 7" x 12" for example is a 3/4 hp motor.


 
Why not? I'm running my bigger lathe on 1/2 HP and my smaller one on 1/3rd.

My 'reserve' motor is 1/4HP 1440rpm and this ran a 'wartime' Pools Major which was everything that the present bargain basement lathes have- and lots more besides.

My tool and cutter grinders all run on 1/6th HP 2880rpm motors.

Might I therefore suggest that most workshop - and your proposed rather less than a workshop, needs a lot less so called horse power than you suppose?

I haven't quite worked out what my little Unimat clone is using but I can always give a hamster a bit of exercise if the motor blows:hDe:

Don't fall for this snakeoil stuff or Josef Goebbels propaganda.  Salespeople don't run lathes, they have to spend all their days trying to find a crust to eat or someone to con.

Regards


Norman


----------



## ShopShoe

Unless you can consider rewiring, an apartment bedroom most likely will have only 115V outlets on a 15 or 20 amp. circuit that is also shared with other parts of the apartment. In some cases that shared stuff may also include the overhead lighting in some rooms. If you have a breaker box for your own apartment, you can look at the size of the circuit breakers and switch circuits off one-at-a-time to find what is on each circuit.

You can estimate the load on a circuit by adding up the individual loads of each item. It is not totally accurate, but you can roughly estimate that each 100 Watts on 115V is 1 amp. Motors may need additional current when starting up, so you also need to be under the total capacity of the circuit as well.

If you don't have your own box, or share it with someone else, you also have to keep your power consumption low enough to avoid tripping breakers, resulting in calls to maintenance people, thus resulting in more investigations into what you are doing in your apartment.

Most likely you will have to set up a "starter" workshop with smaller machines and begin experimenting and building.

We all would like to see you start and would love posts about what you are doing. 

As one who was once in your shoes, I have to add that you should do  something, just realize that you can't make the perfect plan at the beginning.

Good Luck

--
--ShopShoe


----------



## goldstar31

Overloading one phase on a supply network  can cause all sorts of troubles. I went through all this professionally but 35 years of retirement tends to dull everything -apart from the regular receipt of the pension for doing it.

Norman


----------



## bazmak

This post started as asking the questions of small/quiet (sewing machine) sized
lathes and seems to have escalated to 3000ib lathes and 2 hp motors
Don't know how we all got there but for you its a no no
I would highly recommend the sieg Sc2/3 with 500w variable speed motor
Very quiet with belt drive and plugs in to a std outlet.Would suggest the 
14 or 16" bed,can be moved about by 1 man. Will make almost all models
and will turn up to 6" dia steel.You can use it straight out of the box and the web
is filled with all the info you need and lots of tooling and mods to keep you happy Regards barry


----------



## MechMan183

goldstar31 said:


> Why not? I'm running my bigger lathe on 1/2 HP and my smaller one on 1/3rd.
> 
> My 'reserve' motor is 1/4HP 1440rpm and this ran a 'wartime' Pools Major which was everything that the present bargain basement lathes have- and lots more besides.
> 
> My tool and cutter grinders all run on 1/6th HP 2880rpm motors.
> 
> Might I therefore suggest that most workshop - and your proposed rather less than a workshop, needs a lot less so called horse power than you suppose?
> 
> I haven't quite worked out what my little Unimat clone is using but I can always give a hamster a bit of exercise if the motor blows:hDe:
> 
> Don't fall for this snakeoil stuff or Josef Goebbels propaganda. Salespeople don't run lathes, they have to spend all their days trying to find a crust to eat or someone to con.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Norman


 
The thing is that the small lathes all seem to have pretty powerful motors in comparison to what you describe, and I don't want a super small one.


----------



## MechMan183

ShopShoe said:


> Unless you can consider rewiring, an apartment bedroom most likely will have only 115V outlets on a 15 or 20 amp. circuit that is also shared with other parts of the apartment. In some cases that shared stuff may also include the overhead lighting in some rooms. If you have a breaker box for your own apartment, you can look at the size of the circuit breakers and switch circuits off one-at-a-time to find what is on each circuit.
> 
> You can estimate the load on a circuit by adding up the individual loads of each item. It is not totally accurate, but you can roughly estimate that each 100 Watts on 115V is 1 amp. Motors may need additional current when starting up, so you also need to be under the total capacity of the circuit as well.
> 
> If you don't have your own box, or share it with someone else, you also have to keep your power consumption low enough to avoid tripping breakers, resulting in calls to maintenance people, thus resulting in more investigations into what you are doing in your apartment.
> 
> Most likely you will have to set up a "starter" workshop with smaller machines and begin experimenting and building.
> 
> We all would like to see you start and would love posts about what you are doing.
> 
> As one who was once in your shoes, I have to add that you should do something, just realize that you can't make the perfect plan at the beginning.
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> --
> --ShopShoe


 
Thank you for the advice, yes we do have our own breaker box though.


----------



## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> This post started as asking the questions of small/quiet (sewing machine) sized
> lathes and seems to have escalated to 3000ib lathes and 2 hp motors
> Don't know how we all got there but for you its a no no
> I would highly recommend the sieg Sc2/3 with 500w variable speed motor
> Very quiet with belt drive and plugs in to a std outlet.Would suggest the
> 14 or 16" bed,can be moved about by 1 man. Will make almost all models
> and will turn up to 6" dia steel.You can use it straight out of the box and the web
> is filled with all the info you need and lots of tooling and mods to keep you happy Regards barry


 
Well no, I haven't gone up to 3,000 lb lathes, just 500 lbs  A symptom of just wanting to biggest lathe I can get is the thing. You look at one lathe, then you look at one slightly bigger, and figure, "I could fit that," then rinse and repeat, and you're up to 500 lbs. 

The ones that most interest me are the MicroMark 7" x 16" and the LittleMachineShop 7" x 16" one, the LittleMachineShop 8.5" x 20", and the Grizzly 10" x 22" but that might be too large for me.


----------



## goldstar31

I can understand the views expressed from all sides but might I go back to the noise/loading problem in an apartment?  
You are setting off on a course in which you are going to be both tearing and torturing metal but in doing so, you might well be tearing apart and torturing any goodwill from neighbours.

I live in a quite large detached bungalow in what is in England a large plot with its own trees and whatever and am flanked by equally detached houses etc in their own grounds.  Whilst I am perfectly capable of buying ANY machine tool, I must consider the social and moral responsibilities of where I live . 

I might, and my neighbours have activities generating 90db( I have a rather large sit on lawn mower, they have normal, noisy children and trampolines and so on- and we all have barbecues and social 'noise' but there is a limit which must not be exceeded. 

It is fair to mention the matter but the decision is yours and yours alone.

regards

Norman


----------



## bazmak

The micro mark 7x16 is the one I went for.Mainly for the camloc tailstock and metal changegears not plastic.It was an ideal lathe,did everything I asked until
 the motor/board blew.I then upgraded to the Sc4 8x20
I would not recommend anything bigger than 7x16 for your situation
Keep us posted when you decide. Regards barry


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> Okay, from what I see, the average electrical outlet in the U.S. is 110-120 volts. Most of the lathes say that is what the motor is, however the 10K says: 110V/220V, single-phase, 60 Hz. Don't know what the 220V part means, I assume it must be okay though if yours runs from a standard outlet.




A 110/220 motor is a single phase motor designed to be switchable based on the power being supplied to it.   Usually this means reconfiguring the wiring or jumpers at the motors junction box.   For fractional horsepower motors the voltage you run the motor at has no bearing on performance.  

You can't however assume correct wiring of these motors, it is always a good idea to double check that a motor is wired for the voltage you will be using before powering up.


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> Don't think I could go that small. The Grizzly 7" x 12" for example is a 3/4 hp motor.




A 3/4 hp motor will run fine in 110 VAC if it is designed for it.  Generally the big problem with larger motors on 110 VAC circuits is voltage drop.   If the voltage drop is so significant that you enter brown out conditions then you will have problems with the motor.   

Generally you can expect to pull about 1400 watts of power from a 15 amp 115 VAC socket reliably.    (For those doing the math that includes derating breaker current to 80%).  That is almost two horse power.    Starting the motor may be an issue though as the locked rotor currents are extremely high for a few cycles thus you can trip fast breakers at startup.


----------



## Wizard69

goldstar31 said:


> Why not? I'm running my bigger lathe on 1/2 HP and my smaller one on 1/3rd.


In the past a lot of lathes came with similarly sized motors.    You don't need a lot of Horse Power for most model engineering metal removal rates.     It is good that you point this out because I suspect that many don't understand power requirements in machining.  

Now I'm not going to say the power is never useful, but power does imply a lathe that can handle it.  


> My 'reserve' motor is 1/4HP 1440rpm and this ran a 'wartime' Pools Major which was everything that the present bargain basement lathes have- and lots more besides.
> 
> My tool and cutter grinders all run on 1/6th HP 2880rpm motors.
> 
> Might I therefore suggest that most workshop - and your proposed rather less than a workshop, needs a lot less so called horse power than you suppose?


This I agree with 100%.   A workshop in the end is composed of several machines with one or more grinders considered mandatory.   Trying to stuff all of this equipment into a tight space is going to be a challenge all on its own.   My preferences generally lean towards larger lathes but in this case the original poster really needs to fit the tools to the workspace.  


> I haven't quite worked out what my little Unimat clone is using but I can always give a hamster a bit of exercise if the motor blows:hDe:
> 
> Don't fall for this snakeoil stuff or Josef Goebbels propaganda.  Salespeople don't run lathes, they have to spend all their days trying to find a crust to eat or someone to con.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Norman


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> The thing is that the small lathes all seem to have pretty powerful motors in comparison to what you describe, and I don't want a super small one.




In some cases you need to take advertised motor horsepower ratings on Chinese machine tools with a grain of salt.  While some of the vendors hawking higher end machines do have better motors don't assume they are all rated according to NEMA standards.  

The other thing to consider is that some of the more expensive machines include variable speed motors.    These are great but they are often rated higher to make sure the motor maintains power at lower speeds.   On the other hand some of the cheap variable speed drives are hooked up to nothing more than universal motors of poor reputation.     Look carefully at what you are actually getting in a lathe package.


----------



## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> Well no, I haven't gone up to 3,000 lb lathes, just 500 lbs  A symptom of just wanting to biggest lathe I can get is the thing. You look at one lathe, then you look at one slightly bigger, and figure, "I could fit that," then rinse and repeat, and you're up to 500 lbs.


I understand this myself.    However you are currently extremely limited in space that puts real restrictions on what you can do.   Plus you seem to have not considered other required machinery such as a tool grinder which is almost an immediate requirement.  

In my opinion a tool grinder is a requirement even if you intend to use insert tooling most of the time.   The fact is learning to use HSS tool blanks, to grind them to suit the job at hand, is just a mandatory skill.   


> The ones that most interest me are the MicroMark 7" x 16" and the LittleMachineShop 7" x 16" one, the LittleMachineShop 8.5" x 20", and the Grizzly 10" x 22" but that might be too large for me.




That 10x22 is really nice but it by its very nature will take up a lot more area on your bench than the 7x16's will.


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## MechMan183

bazmak said:


> The micro mark 7x16 is the one I went for.Mainly for the camloc tailstock and metal changegears not plastic.It was an ideal lathe,did everything I asked until
> the motor/board blew.I then upgraded to the Sc4 8x20
> I would not recommend anything bigger than 7x16 for your situation
> Keep us posted when you decide. Regards barry


 
Do the 7x16's have a reputation for blowing the motors/boards? I ask because a guy on Youtube who has a 7x16 said the same thing, that eventually his motor/board blew. He had the Micro Mark 7x16.


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## MechMan183

Wizard69 said:


> I understand this myself. However you are currently extremely limited in space that puts real restrictions on what you can do. Plus you seem to have not considered other required machinery such as a tool grinder which is almost an immediate requirement.
> 
> In my opinion a tool grinder is a requirement even if you intend to use insert tooling most of the time. The fact is learning to use HSS tool blanks, to grind them to suit the job at hand, is just a mandatory skill.


 
Are tool grinders very noisy, or is that a matter of size, like say a tool grinder for a Sherline would be a lot less noisy than one for a larger lathe? Also thank you for all the information, especially on the electric motors, that is a confusing subject. I actually just got a book on electric motors, hopefully that will help clear more up.


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## Tin Falcon

Tool grinding will be a bit noisey.  You really do not need more than a 6" grinder. what really counts is the stones  I use norton white wheels . the blue wheels are supposed to be better cut faster cooler and last longer and I expect they do but a set of wheels will set you back about $90 the white wheels are about half that. A powered whetstone will run quite and would be great for final grinding and touch up but too slow to form a cutting tool from a square blank. I am not an apartment dweller but I do live in a tight neighborhood . Houses only 20 -30 feet apart. I have never had a neighbor complain about noise.  But I do not run power saws or grinders at 10 pm either. 
tin


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## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> Are tool grinders very noisy, or is that a matter of size, like say a tool grinder for a Sherline would be a lot less noisy than one for a larger lathe? Also thank you for all the information, especially on the electric motors, that is a confusing subject. I actually just got a book on electric motors, hopefully that will help clear more up.




They can be somewhat noisy but a lot of the noise associated with grinding, on a bench grinder, comes from unbalanced wheels.  Learning to balance the wheels greatly reduces one type of noise coming from the grinder.     A quality grinder doing nothing should be fairly quite.  

The noise coming from grinding is another thing and highly variable depending upon what you are doing.  There is no way to really moderate it.    Frankly the noise shouldn't be worst than a dishwasher running.     You will most likely want get a small bench grinder first instead of a dedicated tool grinder.     A 1/3 hp bench grinder would be fine for a shop this size.


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## ShopShoe

I think the noise of actual grinding is loud enough to annoy some people. If it were me, I would set my own limitations on grinding to times of day when it might be the least disruptive. If the building is mostly people who work during the day and come home to rest and enjoy their own quiet times, I would maybe limit my grinding to the time between when people are coming home and when you think they might be starting their evening meals. If there are young children the parents are trying to calm down, I might wait for the weekend. If I found out my neighbors were day sleepers, I would also restrict my time to when they are not home.

As far as running a small lathe and mill, I would probably stop around 8 or 9 PM on a weeknight, maybe 10:00 on Saturday. I would spend any "shop"  time later doing things that are less noisy, such as filing and hand sanding and cleanup. I would also avoid extra noise, such as TV or music in the shop, during late hours.

All of this assumes a good general level of sound insulation in your building. Cheaply built apartments with poor insulation would call for you to be extra quiet. I would think that if you can sometimes hear your neighbors talking through the walls, they would probably hear your machines any time you were working.

Also, your machines need to be mounted so as not to transmit noise through the structure of the building. You might put isolation pads between your machines and the bench they are on and between the bench legs and the floor. this also means that probably nothing should be directly mounted to a wall. My mother lives in a duplex in a retirement community and the neighbor has a woodshop. Everything is very well insulated and you cannot hear his machines.
For a while there would be some knocking and tapping noises on the wall. It urned out he had tools and small shelves on the wall and transmission through the structure let noise from his use of those through. When I was in an apartment years ago, I worked on an old wooden office desk and tried to isolate things as much as possible. Unfortunately, some noise still did transmit through and I voluntarily restricted my activities to early weeknight times and only mid-day on Saturday.

Hope this helps you,

--ShopShoe


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## goldstar31

Of course some of us 'cut our teeth' on lathes that were pedal driven. Again, my handbook on my new but old Myford ME10 cites a hand driven grinder.

I suppose that most of you have never heard of such things.  Wonderful way to have to create razor sharp tools-- or suffer the obvious consequences. 

Norman


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## MechMan183

goldstar31 said:


> Of course some of us 'cut our teeth' on lathes that were pedal driven. Again, my handbook on my new but old Myford ME10 cites a hand driven grinder.
> 
> I suppose that most of you have never heard of such things. Wonderful way to have to create razor sharp tools-- or suffer the obvious consequences.
> 
> Norman


 
I have heard of them. Would like to obtain a pedal-driven lathe someday. What I find so awesome about the pedal-driven variants is that they give you the ability to create machines in a situation with no electricity available. So it's like the ultimate DIY, self-reliance thing when it comes to machining, aside from machining with files.  

In the early days of machine tools, I'll bet there were folks saying, "Of course some of us cut our teeth using files and saws to do our metalworking..."


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## Wizard69

MechMan183 said:


> I have heard of them. Would like to obtain a pedal-driven lathe someday. What I find so awesome about the pedal-driven variants is that they give you the ability to create machines in a situation with no electricity available. So it's like the ultimate DIY, self-reliance thing when it comes to machining, aside from machining with files.


It is also a positive thing from the standpoint of ones health.   A little bit of exercise goes a long ways.  I've had this idea in the back of my head to make a miniature lather that is pedal driven.   In this case more like a bicycle.    The idea being a big enough flywheel would store up enough energy to allow the human to idle while the precision work is done. 

Unfortunately this is beyond my free time capacity at the moment.  


> In the early days of machine tools, I'll bet there were folks saying, "Of course some of us cut our teeth using files and saws to do our metalworking..."




Maybe: some of us cut our teeth digging ore from the ground and melting it with charcoal.   There is always an old way to do something.


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## zoltan

You seem to have started overthinking this.

Especially since you live in an apartment and it's your first lathe, just buy this:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5100&category=1271799306

Or this:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/7-X-14-Variable-Speed-Benchtop-Lathe/G0765

Along with this:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5207&category=

And start building something. You need to start somewhere and either of these lathes is a great starting point.

There are lots of nice little modifications you can make the lathe down the road to make it nicer to use, but the most important thing is to just start making chips.

By the way, I highly recommend one of these since hacksawing is really tedious:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Portable-Bandsaw-with-Stand/G8692


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## MechMan183

zoltan said:


> You seem to have started overthinking this.
> 
> Especially since you live in an apartment and it's your first lathe, just buy this:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5100&category=1271799306
> 
> Or this:
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/7-X-14-Variable-Speed-Benchtop-Lathe/G0765
> 
> Along with this:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5207&category=
> 
> And start building something. You need to start somewhere and either of these lathes is a great starting point.
> 
> There are lots of nice little modifications you can make the lathe down the road to make it nicer to use, but the most important thing is to just start making chips.
> 
> By the way, I highly recommend one of these since hacksawing is really tedious:
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Portable-Bandsaw-with-Stand/G8692


 
On the portable bandsaw, wouldn't that be too noisy for an apartment?


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## zoltan

MechMan183 said:


> On the portable bandsaw, wouldn't that be too noisy for an apartment?



No,  I don't think so.


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## goldstar31

Unless you are going to build a full size battleship, I would concentrate my efforts towards a lathe and its accessories. What needs to be cut can either parted in the lathe or with a hacksaw. 

Again, might I caution you not to fall for the offer of a three jaw self centring chuck and concentrate on having a 4 jaw independent chuck  which will do irregular objects which ruin a SC Chuck or flyout in no uncertain manner.  Then I'd buy a faceplate and learn to use it and open up possibilities in lieu of a milling machine. Armed with a drill chuck, you would be in no more problems of an older brigade of model engineers who concentrated on having the King of Machine Tools and knew precisely what they and their single tool could do.

With a little more 'reading up' of the subject, you  could actually make lots of the useful tooling that extends one's  hobby.

This is really what apprentices did. 

Add to your homemade workshop only as and when you have built up experience and finances to make your own judgements to suit your own specific needs.


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## _Axel_

I used to live in apartment where I had my workshop spread out all over it in fact! For a lathe I had a Sherline 4410, and I can recommend it 110%. It is very quiet and easy to work with. Also Sherline has a huge selection of accessories. Get a long bed even though you don't think you'll need it - won't ever be regretted! Personally I would stick to this size of machine, although I've had a Emco 8 copy in one apartment. Try to stick to softer metals. Steel can be noisy to machine. Sharp tools and good work holding is important!

Blogwitch is correct that many have normal ME size lathes in apartments. Just look around in Europe and you soon realize that is how it has to be. I countries like Belgium, were I often visit, people have very little room to spare for hobbies, and it's the same in the UK I'm sure. I live in Sweden where space is seldom a problem, unless you live in a larger city. Both the Myford lathes and Wabeco's are designed to be quiet. The Wabeco lathes is probably the quieter of them. But I can't afford them so I do not know for sure. 

A treadle powered machine would not at all be a dumb idea, in fact it would have the benefit of control and a reverse, over the normal Sherline motor. Could be set up with bike parts, something I consider doing one day actually. It would have to be a fixed installation though, so no more storing the lathe in a closet. I would use a fixie hub and an old steel rim, that I would put a "wood tyre" on. 

Stuff that makes more noise than machining are actually filing and hacksawing. Make sure to get a bench that is heavy for this. I made a sitting bench with a pedestal in one end, that I mounted my bench vise on. I straddled this like a horse. It had rubber feet. This solved the problem of not bolting a workbench to the wall (that would transmit noise into the wall). You will want to have a normal work bench as well for assembly work etc. Put rubber matting on that to deaden noise.

Also, you must always be on good terms with the neighbors. Unless you work too late few are hard to be friends with. It is better to know them, and talk to them about your hobbies.


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## _Axel_

goldstar31 said:


> Unless you are going to build a full size battleship, I would concentrate my efforts towards a lathe and its accessories. What needs to be cut can either parted in the lathe or with a hacksaw.
> 
> Again, might I caution you not to fall for the offer of a three jaw self centring chuck and concentrate on having a 4 jaw independent chuck  which will do irregular objects which ruin a SC Chuck or flyout in no uncertain manner.  Then I'd buy a faceplate and learn to use it and open up possibilities in lieu of a milling machine. Armed with a drill chuck, you would be in no more problems of an older brigade of model engineers who concentrated on having the King of Machine Tools and knew precisely what they and their single tool could do.
> 
> With a little more 'reading up' of the subject, you  could actually make lots of the useful tooling that extends one's  hobby.
> 
> This is really what apprentices did.
> 
> Add to your homemade workshop only as and when you have built up experience and finances to make your own judgements to suit your own specific needs.



Depending on the size of lathe chosen a machine with milling/shaping capabilities can be a necessity. Smaller lathes like Taig and Sherline are useless millers without a milling column. Faceplate work is not at all as common or useful on a small machine like this, as it is on a standard 3.5" ME lathe. 

But I agree that the 4-jaw independent is the one to get in a 'one chuck household'. But I would not want to live w/o my 3-jaw scroll chuck!

To grip larger stock in a benchtop machine, say around 35-40mm, I recommend adding a plug in one end that the chuck can grip with more of its jaw. This is a real limitation of smaller machines, that makes them a bit more time consuming. Work holding is an art in itself.


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## goldstar31

Unfortunately, the original poster has not been 'booked in' for 3 weeks.

I'm picking up 'something by a Mechman183 about Nelson Mandela. Again there is a lot of 'non MECH' stuff as well.

Perhaps we could avoid taking up what little free time we have until we know whether or not his interest is still there. 

Norman


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## _Axel_

Come to think about it, there is at least one channel on YT about just this. A channel called NYCCNC chronicles a home shop machinist in NYC who starts out working at home in his apartment, and now has his own full size CNC business.

https://www.youtube.com/user/saunixcomp/about


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## MechMan183

goldstar31 said:


> Unfortunately, the original poster has not been 'booked in' for 3 weeks.
> 
> I'm picking up 'something by a Mechman183 about Nelson Mandela. Again there is a lot of 'non MECH' stuff as well.
> 
> Perhaps we could avoid taking up what little free time we have until we know whether or not his interest is still there.
> 
> Norman


 
Hello, yes my interest is definitely still here. Have been working a job though as late, trying to save up for the lathe actually. I also got an idea from an article I saw in an issue of _Popular Mechanics _from the 1950s about building a small enclosure to cover one's hands to allow for doing hand tool woodworking in a home (say a living room). What I am thinking of is building a frame enclosure using 80/20 T-slots to surround the workbench and then have plastic or something draping from that in order to contain the metal chips. 

Regarding my name elsewhere, yes you will find me using this same screen name on certain other forums and threads, including on lots of political-related topics where I have given my opinion. Politics/issues/current events etc...is a favorite subject of mine as well. A great way, IMO, to engage on that topic is in Internet discussions because then you can really flesh out the details and also learn. Political philosophy, political history, economics, foreign policy, military history, etc...all interest me greatly. Just to clear that up.

As a quick side note, one thing I find very interesting being how we are interested in things like history of technology and mechanical technology is how intertwined with economic history and military history the history of technology is. Economic history, military history, and history of technology are like peas and carrots.

But yes I am still very interested in machining. I am saving for a workbench and lathe at the moment though.


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## MechMan183

Also _Axel_ thank you for the information.


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## goldstar31

I'm afraid that much of what was written was wasted on me. Suffice to say that I have bought a cheap and simple
lathe which is half my age and one which more than suffices for whatever aspirations I still possess. 

Regards

Norman


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## MechMan183

goldstar31 said:


> I'm afraid that much of what was written was wasted on me.


 
No worries, not a waste at all.


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