# Designing a Spartan Machine Shop



## Coyote_Physics (Jul 19, 2013)

This is a long post, but I think the information will be valuable for those who want to answer my question.  To help, Ive divided the post up into different sections.  If you just want to read The Big Question and offer your $0.02 that is OK too.

Sections:


    The Big Question
    Motivation/Constraints
    About me
    What I would like to make
    My skill level/Experience
    Tools I currently have
*1. The Big Question:*
What tools would you recommend for a minimum size/cost machine shop? 


    Are there specific machines/manufacturers/suppliers you recommend?
    Are there threads/websites you would recommend I refer to?
    What order would you obtain equipment in?

*2. Motivation/Constraints:*
Up until about 4 years ago I had access to a number of shops owed by friends/relatives who were always willing to help with anything I needed.  Work has moved me away, and although the people in my new home are great, they just arent as likely to have a machine shop.  Ive always enjoyed making things, but lately Ive wished that I could do more than build scrap-heap projects (like tin can sterling engines). 

I love the engines that are made by the members of this forum (I am a long time viewer),  and I am interested in building a few of my own, but I dont want to buy a lathe, then find out that I need a handful of other tools to really get started. 

Space and money are both important considerations.  Money can be accumulated over time, but my workshop space will never be very big.

*3. About Me:*
I am a lifelong tinkerer who loves learning about how things work.  I also have a nostalgic side that loves technology from the past. (as demonstrated by my slide rule collection no offense to those of you who grew up using them as the height of personal calculation tools).   Im a physics teacher by trade, which is a job that I love, but sometimes I wish that I had gone the machinist route which I also considered.

*4. What I would like to make:*
As workspace is an issue I am interested in building small projects.  I am interested in simple steam engines (to be run from an air compressor, not live steam... at least at first), sterling engines, and perhaps a very simple IC engine (one day, maybe), I would also like to make various curiosity items like fire-pistons, and basic physics lab equipment (such as wheels with identical size and mass but different moments of inertia).

*5. My Skill Level/Experience:*
I worked for a small manufacturing company when I was younger.  Mainly my jobs included cutting bar-stock to length, drilling and tapping holes, doing finishing work with grinders, and assembling machines (bolt and wrench work). 

I am a decent backyard automotive mechanic.  That being said, I take my car to a professional mechanic when I feel a job is beyond my skill level. Ive also done my share of basic home repair including plumbing and electrical work. 

I also had a job where I was responsible for routine maintenance of equipment at a research lab.  That place had a very-non Spartan machine shop.

I have done my share of lab work, which might be light on machining, but heavy on measurement.  I can use calipers (even the vernier type if you were wondering), micrometers, etc. 

*6. Tools I currently have:*
I have a pretty good assortment of home and automotive repair tools, but the only power tools I currently own fall in the hand held category.  (drills, saws, sanders.)

Thanks in advance for any advice you share with me.


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## Mainer (Jul 20, 2013)

What is your budget? How much space do you have for a shop? I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a spartan machine shop. You can always find more tools you need. It's a tool freak's ideal hobby. But to start out.....

I'd get a lathe as the first machine tool. Get the book "The Amateur's Lathe" by L.H. Sparey. It will tell you how to use a lathe for all manner of things one might not think of. He uses a milling attachment for the lathe, which was the British Way. About all I can say is that they are better than nothing, but not by much. Small milling machines were a rarity or non-existent in Sparey's day, so milling attachments were the norm. You will want a real milling machine.

You'll need a 4-jaw lathe chuck, if you are being spartan. It is more versatile than a 3-jaw. A dial indicator. A set of good drills 1/16" to 1/2" and a set of number drills #1 to #60. A good 0-1" micrometer. You will use it constantly, so it is worth getting a good one. Used is fine, if not too worn. 0-6" dial calipers. At some point you may want to add a 1"-2" and a 2" to 3" micrometer, but starting out the dial caliper will suffice. Small hole gages. And on and on.

Basically, I'd suggest you get a lathe then just wade in and start doing things and see what you need. It took me about 10 years of accumulating tools before I could start a project and feel reasonably confident I had everything I needed to complete it.

As far as which lathe.... I tend to be one who wants to buy something once and not have to replace it later, so when I bought my lathe I got a South Bend 10K (you could still get a new SB 10K lathe in 1978!). It's been a good choice, generally, though if I were to do it again I might get something else. Trying to buy something you would still choose 35 years later is mostly a matter of dumb luck. I would, however, recommend that whatever lathe you get, get one good enough so you enjoy using it. This hobby is difficult enough without being aggravated by the problems of your machinery.
Jet and Grizzly sell a range of lathes. Grizzly also sells "South Bend" lathes, theoretically of better quality than the Grizzly-brand lathes. 
I'm partial to the Jet JVM-836 milling machine, but it's fairly expensive.

I guess that's enough random babbling for now.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 20, 2013)

First equip yourself with knowledge. You are looking at the mountain you want to get to the top and you have no Idea how to get there. 
There is no single answer you need find the path that works best for you. 
To climb the mountain buy a map  it will tell you all you need to know where the easy trails are and where the steep slopes are at. and probably where to rent a helicopter. 
If you simply want an engine that you can run on air buy one that is pre machined  and assemble it. cost about $140 .

A second option is get the simple model  steam engine book by Stan Bray. 
Basic hand tools vise files hack saw and a torch and supplies for soldering and you can make simple engines and boilers. 

The third option is set up a hobby machine shop. IMHO the lthe is the first machine to to buy. 
This thread should answer many of your questions. 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/tips-selecting-lathe-will-thread-19213/

And more info on getting started here. 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f27/geting-started-model-engine-building-8701/


Look through the sticky threads at the top of each sub fora. read all the sticky threads and you will have a good idea of how to get started and stay out of trouble. 

There are many here who have asked the same type of question how do I get started what machines do I need to buy.  a little search and you can find those questions and answers. 
Tin


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## kuhncw (Jul 20, 2013)

Like Mainer said, what are your budget and space constraints?  Without knowing the answer and based on your mention of limited space and desire to build small projects, I'd suggest a Sherline lathe and a Taig milling machine.  The Sherline mill is a fine machine, but the Taig mill is larger, very capable, and still fits a very small shop.  

You are going to get a wide spectrum of answers to your question.

Regards,

Chuck


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## Sshire (Jul 20, 2013)

Your space and budget will help us here. Small space and small machines have been done very successfully with some beautiful engines as a result. Probably the best example is the series of videos Rudy Kohaupt did with Sheline machines. The set of videos are available for rental. IIRC Rudy's whole setup was on a rolling cart.
As Tin said, read everything you can. YouTube has hundreds of videos on model engines. This research will give you a much better idea of what can be done with small machines.
Small machines do not mean a small expenditure, but a basic kit (beyond the cost of lathe and mill) can be done for a reasonable amount. However, as others here have said, there is always something you will want or need.
My first engine was done with just a mill and Stan Bray's book.


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## kuhncw (Jul 20, 2013)

Though his shop space is not small, I think John Bentley's site best shows what can be done with small machines.  Beautiful shop and very fine workmanship.

http://workshop.modelengines.info/

Regards,

Chuck Kuhn


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## gus (Jul 20, 2013)

All journey begin with the first step.

Quite happy I made the first step and bought a next larger mini Sakai Lathe which cost me about triple that of China Lathe. No regrets.The Japanese Lathe did well despite neglect since 2004. Two years later I bought a Japanese Sakai vertical mill and again triple cost. Did not join HMEM till 2010.Prior to that I was fumbling in the dark and fearful of the unknown and my skills and experience and quality of builds not wide or many. The HMEM Gurus are forever willing to give good advice. With HMEM coaxing I made Aeromodel Engines. And now a Webster IC Gas Engine which is about to run. With HMEM,members are exposed to many interesting engines and machining skills. Space wise my machineshop is a three open sided small balcony.And that is really small.:hDe: Since 2010,my skills improved by heaps and bounds. If you need help and advice,just holler and there be 101 members chipping in.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 20, 2013)

with care caution and planning many woodworking tools will cut and form aluminum. My bench band saw was designed some for wood but it was a geared down version I cut aluminum on it and I use my belt sander to sand and shape metal. 
You can make an engine with hand tools especially if you use a preformed tube for a cylinder. Machine tools just alow for faster metal removal and better control of the tool.
Tin


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## ShopShoe (Jul 20, 2013)

Welcome Coyote_Physics,

You have come to the right place. There are many different levels of ability and experience represented here and every shop that I have seen here and "out in the world" is a work in progress. The point is that you just have to jump in at some point and then your experiences with some actual machining will help you decide where to go next.

The best tip I can offer is not to get hooked on the idea of getting everything set up all at once and then starting your first project. What goes along with this idea is to judge carefully when tool shopping and decide whether "sets" of anything fill more than your current needs.

I would think one of the small lathes would be a good first machine purchase. I would suggest buying a set of ground HSS toolbits and some unground ones. If you don't have a bench grinder, you will find one useful for lots of things around the shop and home. Add a good bench stone for final finishing.

Choose a simple project to start, and it doesn't have to be an engine: Several here have warmed up making pens and there is a whole community of penmakers out there as well.

If you decide to change course, you will probably be able to sell your first lathe and move on.

I defer to others here on books and other information. I offer encouragement to just jump in and get started. I spent too much of my own life planning an ultimate metal shop for "someday" and agonizing over the high cost of the large machines I think I wanted to handle all the projects I might ever want to do, like rebuilding car engines and modifying large assemblies. One day I decided to just buy a mini-lathe and get started and I have since focused on a more narrow vision that I can see transferring to a small shop in a retirement house or apartment. This doesn't mean I'm set for life: I still would like a larger lathe and I have been closely following Sshire's Bridgeport purchase. At least I'm out in the shop making things, even if not too many of them are engines at this point.

--ShopShoe


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## obrian (Jul 20, 2013)

Since budget is a big factor you might consider building your own tools.  The Gingery book series of building your own machine shop might be a good option.  I started that way but found an old Atlas lathe for $350.  I am now building my variation of a Gingery mill.  It has been slow going but a good learning process.  

I have started a Stirling Fan project and progressed to a point that some of the parts that I wanted to make were too difficult on a lathe.  So I started the mill project.  Making tools to make tools is sometimes frustrating when you want to build and engine but I will get there someday.  If not at least I am having fun on the trip.

Dennis


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## Mainer (Jul 20, 2013)

A simple barstock engine (i.e. no castings) might be a good first project. Elmer Verberg (Google "Elmer's Engines") designed a couple dozen small engines to be made from brass and aluminum and steel stock. They're cute, and if you mess up a piece of aluminum stock it's a lot cheaper than messing up a casting.  Though they may be simple engines, if you aim to do a really good job making one it will be plenty of challenge.

Oh -- hold off on Stirling engines for a while. They are a lot more demanding that steam/air engines. Get a couple steam engines working first.


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## Coyote_Physics (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks for all of the replies. I am processing the information.  I definitely won't have my shop finalized this year (or even this decade) but maybe by the end of the year I'll invest in a lathe.  It sounds like that is first major tool to become familiar with .  Until then I'll keep plugging away by hand.  I think my next project will be one of the steam engines Moya posted here: 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist...urbine-plans-no-machine-tools-required-21097/ 

Thanks again, CP


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 20, 2013)

Space does not need to be a limiting factor. link below. 

Compact/portable machine shops

Like Stan said the late great Rudy Kuhoupt who I considered a true friend was a true craftsman and a believer in small spaces and small machines.  he had a unimat a sherline and some other I do not remember. his shop was 98 square feet 8x12 just under the legal limit for an un-taxed shed. 

As far as small machines their is no reason not to make great things on them . I have a friend that has made a wonderful collection of engines he built. If a plan is too big for the sherline or too big for the piece of stock he has he makes the engine to a size that works for him .  

Any journey starts with a single step . But the same journey must start where you are. Be happy with where you are. and who you are. I loved physics. Physics explains the physical world around us . Cutting tool geometry and forces can be explained with physics. You understand work,power, inertia..... vectors and all that good stuff that makes life and specifically life in a machine shop work.

You know how to measure  with precision tools so a good start. In your case IMHO a good place to start is buy a tool box and start putting measuring tools layout tools and other small machinist tools in it things you will need no matter what other tooling you buy.  read the beginners tool box thread for Ideas on the box and what tools you need. (Sticky thread in the tool sub fora)
Tin


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## Wizard69 (Jul 24, 2013)

Coyote_Physics said:


> Thanks for all of the replies. I am processing the information.  I definitely won't have my shop finalized this year (or even this decade) but maybe by the end of the year I'll invest in a lathe.  It sounds like that is first major tool to become familiar with .  Until then I'll keep plugging away by hand.  I think my next project will be one of the steam engines Moya posted here:
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f12/beginner-steam-engine-steam-turbine-plans-no-machine-tools-required-21097/
> 
> Thanks again, CP



Well the important thing here is to think, study and plan.    I just finished reading a thread from an off shore worker that needed portable machines so you can see there is a tremendous range of what could be considered a compact shop.     In the sense of this thread you need to define the size of the shop area you will have.  It makes all the difference in the world when it comes to finding the right size tools.   

In reading your first entry here I was left with the impression that you will likely end up using this lathe for more than model making.   You just seem like that sort of guy that might have a range of projects in the fire.  So even if you focus on small models a larger lathe might make sense.   Personally I went with a 9x20 lathe years ago, at times I've been of the impression that I should have went larger though getting a truly large lathe in the cellar would be no easy task.   Versatility is a motivator here for a larger lathe.  

As to getting a lathe first, that is probably a good idea but a lathe isn't functional alone.  You will need a grinder at the very least.   A good shop vac is needed especially if cast iron or other dusty materials are machined.   Plus lots of tools (hand, metrology and expendable cutters) suitable for a machine shop.    Depending upon what you already have you could easily spend money equal to a small lathe to just get started.  

One thing that is worthwhile to keep an eye out for is a used drill press.  These can often be found for sale relatively cheap and can be extremely handy for drilling holes, drum sanding and other drill press related tasks.  Drill presses are well worth the investment if a milling machine is out of reach at the moment. The thing is you can drill all sorts of holes on a lathe but often at the expense of extended setup times.    Plus a drill press can keep dirty gritty operations like drum sanding off your nice lathe.  Often used drill presses can be had so cheap that they are almost disposable.  

Though you can use a fairly large lathe for many milling operations you may find yourself wanting a mill sooner than you may expect.  Milling in the lathe is fine for small stuff but is a pain for larger parts.  Note though that many engines don't require a lot of mill work to begin with.   The problem with mills is that they are again relatively expensive and many of them are less than optimal for small work.   That due to slow spindles.   Here is the big thing, like a lathe a mill requires its own tooling and supplies, so at best whatever the price tag on the mill you are looking at is figure on half a grand or more cash outlay.   This would be for a vise, collets, tool holders, cutters, clamps and whatever else comes to mind.  Some will argue with the point I'm about to offer but it is my opinion; the small mills are a bigger pain in the butt than the small lathes.   Buying too small is far more frustrating with a mill than a lathe.   

You did not mention CNC but it doesn't matter, what I'm going to suggest is looking in the bench top machines forum on CNCZone.   The guys there CNC a lot of small mills and by reading the threads you can come to grips with some of the issues with the small mills.


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## rodw (Jul 25, 2013)

And in a small space, don't scrimp on storage as stuff needs to be well organised so you can keep work space clear.

I have to agree that a vice, bench grinder, lathe and drill press would be a pretty good start. Eventually I replaced my drill press with a mill and had to sell the drill press as I had no space for it so it had to go. If I had the room, it would have stayed.


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## Hopefuldave (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi CP,
I wouldn't suggest the Gingery build-your-own, unless you're more interested in making tools than making engines... 

As has been pointed out, space and funds will dictate your 'shop, but if you're aiming to keep costs down used light-industrial machinery can be cheaper than hobby market - e.g. I bought a 13x30 toolroom lathe needing some fixing for less than a new Chinese minilathe...

One recommendation I will make, try to get a lathe with a T-slotted cross-slide, it opens up a lot of possibilities, like boring bolted-down cylinders with a between-centres tool, simple milling operations...


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## vederstein (Jul 27, 2013)

On a lighter note...

If the shop is Spartan, how about wearing a bronze helmet when working there?


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 27, 2013)

only if the lathe runs off a great wheel powered by slaves.
Tin


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## ZipSnipe (Jul 27, 2013)

Bandsaw maybe two bandsaws, If I had room I would have 3 bandsaws.   One(vertical) for wood, one(horizontal) for cutting bar stock and  one(vertical) for cutting shapes into flat metal. Second would be a bench vise, then a bench grinder, then a drill press , next a lathe and finally a milling machine.But out of all the tools I have I feel a bandsaw is one of the most important tools as it cuts your stock down to size so you can then pretty it up with a lathe or a milling machine.


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## Putt-Rite (Jul 28, 2013)

I'd get the Gingery books.


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## Wizard69 (Jul 28, 2013)

ZipSnipe said:


> Bandsaw maybe two bandsaws, If I had room I would have 3 bandsaws.   One(vertical) for wood, one(horizontal) for cutting bar stock and  one(vertical) for cutting shapes into flat metal. Second would be a bench vise, then a bench grinder, then a drill press , next a lathe and finally a milling machine.But out of all the tools I have I feel a bandsaw is one of the most important tools as it cuts your stock down to size so you can then pretty it up with a lathe or a milling machine.



I'm a big fan of bandsaws myself but I don't see them as absolutely required as there are multiple ways to cut metal.   That being said I have two bandsaws right now.   I much prefer a bands saw for woodwork.   As for metal a cut off bandsaw is extremely helpful once stock gets over an inch or so in diameter.    Beyond that a band saw can save wear on cutting tools if you can cut the perimeter to near net shape.


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## Wizard69 (Jul 28, 2013)

Hopefuldave said:


> Hi CP,
> I wouldn't suggest the Gingery build-your-own, unless you're more interested in making tools than making engines...


I wouldn't suggest the lathe as you can buy better even in the crappy Chinese my iPad lathes.   However there is value in learning a bit about machine tools and some of the Gingery stuff you can't buy these days.     For example the Gingery mill is an interesting and still unique design for the model engineering crowd.  Many have made significant enhancements to this mill with very good results.  

The other thing is that the model engineering community as a result of its small size has had to make a lot of its own tooling anyways.   That might be an indexer, cam grinder, lapping machine or whatever.  So experience with machine tool build and design is a positive factor.   I just see building a lathe as a waste of time, this due to used ones being at times dirt cheap. 


> As has been pointed out, space and funds will dictate your 'shop, but if you're aiming to keep costs down used light-industrial machinery can be cheaper than hobby market - e.g. I bought a 13x30 toolroom lathe needing some fixing for less than a new Chinese minilathe...


Which is nice but that is a big lathe space wise.   Don't get me wrong I'd want the larger lathe if I could manage one myself.   Especially if it is my first machine tool and likely to be the only machine tool for awhile. 


> One recommendation I will make, try to get a lathe with a T-slotted cross-slide, it opens up a lot of possibilities, like boring bolted-down cylinders with a between-centres tool, simple milling operations...


This is important.  Many lathes are really to simple cross slide wise.   A long travel on that cross slide would be good too.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 28, 2013)

Building shop is a personal journey. I can not tell you what the best way for you .
But here are the hilights of my shop building journey. 
My interest in metal working started when I was a young teen I was interested in blacksmithing. I read a lot but i never really dove into it. I have some tools still have an interest an have make a couple small projects over the years. IIRC my high school had a machine shop but never saw a course offered or anyone in the shop. 
As a young married man in my mid 20s I had a great neighbor that had a Craftsman 109 lathe and a set of the Gingerly books. But he was more of a dreamer than a doer. I was wanting to have a lathe and purchased a couple of the gingerly books made a couple patterns made a sand box and a couple flasks, and started a charcoal furnace. 
In 1996 I transferred into the fabrication shop at my local Air National guard unit . The summer of 97 I spent the summer at Aberdeen PG,MD for welding and machining school. During that time I was able to buy an old tool box full of tools from a guy in Lancaster PA who worked for IIRC Pratt and Whitney engines during WWII. So my first machine tool was a machinist chest. 

I desperately wanted a lathe but like you a very limited budget. I ended up with a discontinued version of a Grizzly 7 x 10  IIRC $289  at the time. 
I wanted to try pen making but also wanted a machine that would cut metal and make engine parts.  I made a few pens but is was difficult without much in the way of tools.  After about 6 months  we managed to find the money for more tools I purchased a grizzly band saw and a good sized belt/disk sander combo and a friend gave me a HF drill press. 
Over time I have made something over a hundred  P&P sets that has paid for the initial machines. 
Fall of 2001 I added a Micromark mini mill . Later a 9" south bend lathe....and a shaper...
so very much a journey building a shop is. 
Tin


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