# Another Karl Benz 1886 Engine and Motor Wagon.



## Edward Perera (May 8, 2020)

Having got inspired by  the thread started by gg89220,  I purchased the castings from TS Models-Germany, and started  work.  As some time was spent before the castings arrived, I thought of doing some work on the Wagon. I contacted  TonyM, who also was showing interest in gg89220's build, regarding constructing the Wagon. After a few communications I constructed the wheels first.













The tube frame was formed, and by that time the castings were received.




Pictures of the engine construction will follow soon.


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## Edward Perera (May 14, 2020)

Even though I could not locate the most suitable material I started machining the crankshaft with the available material.


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## Edward Perera (May 15, 2020)




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## awake (May 16, 2020)

great progress!


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## BluSky (May 18, 2020)

Hello Edward,
I have also build this engine with castings from Thorsten Schuer.
May I draw your attention to a bug in the drawings (at least my copy) relating the camshaft bracket.
The distance between camshaft center and center of the outlet lever pin (Auslasshebel) is too small given on the drawing. It is recommeded to check the distance before drilling the outlet lever pin hole.
Two cutouts of the drawing will give additional information.

The distance calculated from the drawing is 16.8 mm.



The required distance was 17.75 mm at least




Hope this helps

Regards
Richard


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## johwen (May 18, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> Having got inspired by  the thread started by gg89220,  I purchased the castings from TS Models-Germany, and started  work.  As some time was spent before the castings arrived, I thought of doing some work on the Wagon. I contacted  TonyM, who also was showing interest in gg89220's build, regarding constructing the Wagon. After a few communications I constructed the wheels first.
> View attachment 116077
> 
> View attachment 116078
> ...


Hi this is john from Melbourne Australia and I was wondering if you have any contact details for the castings an Plans for the Vehicle. I would be ever so grateful if you could advise as It looks like a model i would be most interested in building


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## TonyM (May 18, 2020)

Thanks Richard that certainly helped me.
I am currently making the engine too. My drawing shows the 10mm increased to 12 but I am still not happy with the position. It seems too high up. I need to check the end plates are correct too. 
Have you stuck with the TS plan or have you changed the position of the bevel gear to the same as the original.  I have reverted back to the original design with the large bevel gear nearest the cam therefore the camshaft/pulley shaft rotates in the opposite direction to the TS plans. I moved the pin for the inlet pushrod 180 degrees because of the reverse rotation.  
Everything else fits well but I think the inlet and exhaust overlap far too much.  Can you tell me on yours what position the exhaust valve is in when the inlet starts to open. 
Thanks TonyM


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## BluSky (May 18, 2020)

Hello Tony,
unfortunatelly I discovered the bug first when I had already drilled the holes. I discussed the situation with TS. He recommended to shorten the cam hub a little to cope with the gap resulting also in a bigger cam edge. Otherwise I would have to manufacture a new bracket.
I followed the recommendation of TS. 
For the exhaust valve he recommended opening of the valve starts 10° before BDC and closing should be finished at 5° after TDC. The inlet starts to open at 20° before TDC. This is in the drawings description included and he confirmed that. So I did.
The final data of adjustment I have not in mind any more.
My motor is not a real great runner. I assumed it is by reason of scaling an early original engine causes always some trouble, for example the inlet valve is a flat plate which will give complications to get it completely tight and smooth running at the same time.
Also it might be better to fabricate an extra carburetor from own drawing sources than to use the drawing of TS.

Richard


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## TonyM (May 18, 2020)

Thanks Richard. I am sure this discussion will help Edward too. 
I will check what I have. I have a feeling that the valve timing could be improved dramatically without too much change. Maybe the inlet pivot point can be improved. 
On the subject of the carb I intend to use a surface carb. I made a post here asking for constructive criticism. I would appreciate your thoughts.


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## Edward Perera (May 19, 2020)

johwen said:


> Hi this is john from Melbourne Australia and I was wondering if you have any contact details for the castings an Plans for the Vehicle. I would be ever so grateful if you could advise as It looks like a model i would be most interested in building



Hi, John,
Sorry, I do not have any info regarding Castings and Plans for the Wagon. I thought that building the wheels and the frame (1/3 scale) was the easiest way to get along with the construction. For rest of the parts I may have to work by observing the images from the internet.

Edward.
Sri Lanka.


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## Edward Perera (May 19, 2020)

BluSky said:


> Hello Edward,
> I have also build this engine with castings from Thorsten Schuer.
> May I draw your attention to a bug in the drawings (at least my copy) relating the camshaft bracket.
> The distance between camshaft center and center of the outlet lever pin (Auslasshebel) is too small given on the drawing. It is recommeded to check the distance before drilling the outlet lever pin hole.
> ...



Hi, Richard,
Glad to hear that you already built the Benz Engine using castings supplied by TS.
Thank you very much for pointing out the error on the drawings.
For some reason these dimensions are corrected by TS in  the drawings those I received.
I projected two drawings in the autocad using old and new dimensions.
The attached images will show them in detail.
Thank you,
Edward
Sri Lanka.


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## Ken Brunskill (May 27, 2020)

I am and have been intrigued by this engine, are any plans still available for it?


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## TonyM (May 28, 2020)

The plans come with the casting set from Dampfmaschinen, Motoren, Generatoren
The castings are good but the plans have a few errors and instructions are only in German. The plans show the camshaft gears are reversed to the original engine giving reverse rotation of the drive.


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## Edward Perera (May 28, 2020)




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## TonyM (May 28, 2020)

Looking good Edward. Does that carburettor give reasonable engine speed control using the Jan Ridders surface carb. I'd love to see a video.


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## Ken Brunskill (May 28, 2020)

TonyM said:


> The plans come with the casting set from Dampfmaschinen, Motoren, Generatoren
> The castings are good but the plans have a few errors and instructions are only in German. The plans show the camshaft gears are reversed to the original engine giving reverse rotation of the drive.


Thank you TonyM, I have a niece in law who can translate for me, I'm considering it. Are you building one now, if so how good are the castings?


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## TonyM (May 29, 2020)

The castings are mostly aluminium. Reasonably good quality with no porosity, Spigots etc. are well positioned so holes are relatively central.  Flywheel and base are CI. The flywheel had no hard spots and needed minimum fettling. Altogether very pleased with the result. I wanted to make mine nearer the original so have made a few mods to the plans. The camshaft gears being the main one. Mine is the same orientation as Edwards


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## gg89220 (May 29, 2020)

hello
I added a setting for the intake without adjusting the cam


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## Ken Brunskill (May 29, 2020)

TonyM said:


> The castings are mostly aluminium. Reasonably good quality with no porosity, Spigots etc. are well positioned so holes are relatively central.  Flywheel and base are CI. The flywheel had no hard spots and needed minimum fettling. Altogether very pleased with the result. I wanted to make mine nearer the original so have made a few mods to the plans. The camshaft gears being the main one. Mine is the same orientation as Edwards


Beautiful work! You are to be congratulated. I am considering drawing this up in Solidworks as I think the castings could be replicated as weldments. Would you mind if I asked some dimensional questions so I could get the scale right? The other thing is I see a cam to an electrical component suggesting it is a gas not diesel engine, however I do not see any spark plug, or wires to where there might be one, where is it?


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## TonyM (May 30, 2020)

Most of the beautiful work you see in this thread has been done by Edward. I have not posted any pictures of my engine.  Why not email Tolsten Shur and ask if he will send you a GA drawing.


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## Ken Brunskill (May 30, 2020)

TonyM said:


> Most of the beautiful work you see in this thread has been done by Edward. I have not posted any pictures of my engine.  Why not email Tolsten Shur and ask if he will send you a GA drawing.


Thank you for that advice, might you have that email!


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## Ken Brunskill (May 30, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> View attachment 116636
> 
> View attachment 116637
> 
> ...


Beautiful work Edward, I'd erroneously had complemented TonyM in an earlier post, sorry. If you have an email for the firm/individual providing this kit I, appreciate it.


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## TonyM (May 30, 2020)

Hi Ken
It's [email protected]  Put whatever you want to say into google translate as the guy does not speak English.


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## Ken Brunskill (May 30, 2020)

TonyM said:


> Hi Ken
> It's [email protected]  Put whatever you want to say into google translate as the guy does not speak English.


Thanks Tony.


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## Ken Brunskill (Jun 4, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> Having got inspired by  the thread started by gg89220,  I purchased the castings from TS Models-Germany, and started  work.  As some time was spent before the castings arrived, I thought of doing some work on the Wagon. I contacted  TonyM, who also was showing interest in gg89220's build, regarding constructing the Wagon. After a few communications I constructed the wheels first.
> View attachment 116077
> 
> View attachment 116078
> ...


Edward and others building this model;
I am redrawing this engine in a bit smaller scale than I perceive to be 1/3rd scale, is this correct? Would any of you be willing to correspond via email? I am wanting to model this 1/4th scale, so I'll need a few dimension's, like the bore size and overall length of the cylinder casting.


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## TonyM (Jun 5, 2020)

Hi Ken.
The scale of the TS castings are close to 1/3. I have some basic drawings of the engine to that scale that I have done in order to more reflect the original. I have PM'd you.


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## johwen (Jun 5, 2020)

TonyM said:


> Hi Ken.
> The scale of the TS castings are close to 1/3. I have some basic drawings of the engine to that scale that I have done in order to more reflect the original. I have PM'd you.


johwen from down under. It is easy to change the dimensions from 1/3rd scale to 1/4 scale. Just multiply the 1/3rd scale by 3 and then divide by 4 will give 1/4 scale or very close for those who want to change the scale. Example if full size is 12 inches 1/3rd would be 4 inches and 1/4 scale would be 3 inches Cheers John


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## Ken Brunskill (Jun 5, 2020)

TonyM said:


> Hi Ken.
> The scale of the TS castings are close to 1/3. I have some basic drawings of the engine to that scale that I have done in order to more reflect the original. I have PM'd you.


Good day TonyM, not being a frequent blog or internet user, I do not understand "PM'd" please explain to this old man.  Thank you for your  generous offer.  All information of course will be much appreciated.


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## TonyM (Jun 6, 2020)

Hi Ken
You may want to remove your email from the previous post to avoid the spambots.


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## Ken Brunskill (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks for that advice Tony, I am well on the way of creating the 1/4 scale 3D model. Might be a slow struggle, but entertaining and educational though. Once I have enough to create an assembly I will start a thread if any one is interested.


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## gg89220 (Jun 6, 2020)

I sent a scan of the engine plans


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## gg89220 (Jun 6, 2020)

I sent a scan of the engine plans


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## MachineTom (Jun 6, 2020)

I dont see mentioned if you have seen the car at the MB Museum in Stuttgart. I worked for Mercedes-Benz of NA. One of the fellows I worked with had been in charge of the apprentice program, and that was who built the model you see in the museum today. When Daimler celebrated its 100 anniversary, he drove the model in a parade they had.


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## Ken Brunskill (Jun 6, 2020)

gg89220 said:


> I sent a scan of the engine plans


Thanks, they are very useful.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 7, 2020)




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## TonyM (Jun 7, 2020)

Ken Brunskill said:


> Good day TonyM, not being a frequent blog or internet user, I do not understand "PM'd" please explain to this old man.  Thank you for your  generous offer.  All information of course will be much appreciated.


Hi Ken
It means there is a private message for you. Click on the envelope icon next to your name and you can read it. It means you don't need to put personal information on the open forum where the spambots can get your info. 
In any case I emailed you.
Tony


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## awake (Jun 7, 2020)

Edward, magnificent work - and superb pictures!


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## Edward Perera (Jun 8, 2020)

awake said:


> Edward, magnificent work - and superb pictures!



Thank you, Andy.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 12, 2020)

Karl Benz 1886 Engine in Action


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## TonyM (Jun 12, 2020)

Beautifully presented Edward.
I also love the steam plane and the steam engine I found you made. Really impressed with those too and I am sure others on here would love to see them on this site too.
Tony


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## TonyM (Jun 12, 2020)

A quick question Edward.  It looks like it fires once when the points open twice. Is the engine missing every other firing stroke or is it a sound / optical illusion of the video. It's almost like it's starved of fuel.
Tony


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## Edward Perera (Jun 13, 2020)

TonyM said:


> A quick question Edward.  It looks like it fires once when the points open twice. Is the engine missing every other firing stroke or is it a sound / optical illusion of the video. It's almost like it's starved of fuel.
> Tony



Thanks for your question Tony.
You are wright. It is not producing the four stroke beat. I doubt the carburetor. The needle is at the optimum position, any variation immediately  reflects on the rpm. While test running there were instances that I got the beat wright, only with the vapour carburetor, as I could remember.
I think the one you are designing would solve the problem.
I would like to wait and observe the results of your carburetor, before doing any further  research by myself.
Edward.


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## TonyM (Jun 13, 2020)

Edward
You could try a quick test. Run the engine and gradually cover the venturi to choke it. It will show if you need a richer mixture.
On second thoughts it may well be something else.

There are a few videos on youtube and only one engine works well.



The rest all run with a misfire some worse than others but even the TS video show the engine running badly.




  -   TS video

The engine that runs well has had some mods which he says but I think he has also changed the cam to give better valve timing. Maybe also changed the inlet port.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 14, 2020)

Thought this way it is better.


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## TonyM (Jun 14, 2020)

Your link doesn't seem to work.

The problem I see with the engine is the incoming fuel/air needs two 'cycles' to clear the exhaust and charge the engine.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 14, 2020)

Thanks, Tony,
Is there a way to overcome the situation?
Edward.


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## gg89220 (Jun 14, 2020)

hello
I added a setting for the admission, without adjusting the cam, it could help


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## TonyM (Jun 14, 2020)

I was in contact with the guy who made the first engine. He has his valve timing set to TDC and BDC but the main change he made is to increase the compression ratio. If you go to his Youtube channel you will see the conversation. He said it took a long time to get it running that good and he thinks it's even better now.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 15, 2020)

TonyM said:


> I was in contact with the guy who made the first engine. He has his valve timing set to TDC and BDC but the main change he made is to increase the compression ratio. If you go to his Youtube channel you will see the conversation. He said it took a long time to get it running that good and he thinks it's even better now.



I would appreciate if   you could send me a link so that I could visit his channel.


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## Edward Perera (Jun 15, 2020)

Hi All,
Thanks very much for all your suggestions.. I'm really looking forward to try them all , but unfortunately due to a medical condition I need to keep away from any hand's on work for a couple of weeks. But I will be online.. Will get back to you with results once I try them.

Edward.


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## TonyM (Jun 15, 2020)

It's the first engine in post 43 view on youtube


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## Edward Perera (Jul 8, 2020)




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## awake (Jul 8, 2020)

That runs beautifully!


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## TonyM (Jul 10, 2020)

Excellent. Runs perfectly.


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## Ken Brunskill (Aug 1, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


>



I have followed and applied the drawings I've received and scaled them to 1/4 scale in inches vs. metric, however I observe that the 3D model has the piston ending up, seemingly quite a distance from the top of the cylinder at the top of the stroke. I know that you have a nicely operating engine (Congratulations!) Could you advise what the relationship is between the top of the cylinder to the top of the piston is a TDC on your engine? Obviously I need to correct my 3D model, just would like to get an idea of by how much.


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## Edward Perera (Aug 5, 2020)

Ken Brunskill said:


> I have followed and applied the drawings I've received and scaled them to 1/4 scale in inches vs. metric, however I observe that the 3D model has the piston ending up, seemingly quite a distance from the top of the cylinder at the top of the stroke. I know that you have a nicely operating engine (Congratulations!) Could you advise what the relationship is between the top of the cylinder to the top of the piston is a TDC on your engine? Obviously I need to correct my 3D model, just would like to get an idea of by how much.



I am very sorry for my delay in replying.
There is a gap of 33.5 mm from the top surface of the piston to the top end of the sleeve, @TDC.


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## rutzen (Aug 5, 2020)

Please could you tell me where you got the castings and drawings?  TS models-germany doesn't come up on a Google search.


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## Edward Perera (Aug 5, 2020)

Here is the link,





						Verbrennungsmotor "Karl Benz"
					

Kraftwagenmotor "KARL BENZ"  		 			Bei diesem Modellmotor handelt es sich um den Vorbildähnlichen Nachbau, des Motors, welchen Karl Benz im Jahre 1886 in seinen ersten Motorwagen einbaute. Hierbei handelt es sich um einen ...



					www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen.de


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## rutzen (Aug 5, 2020)

Thank you.


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## TonyM (Aug 6, 2020)

Ken.
As you are making this from scratch at a smaller scale you should know that the design, as is, gives a very low compression ratio. Something like 2 - 2.5 : 1.  This is insufficient to make the engine work consistently well. You should design the head with a spigot rather than a recess and maybe increase the piston length in order to increase the compression ratio to at to 4.5 - 5 : 1.


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## Ken Brunskill (Aug 8, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> I am very sorry for my delay in replying.
> There is a gap of 33.5 mm from the top surface of the piston to the top end of the sleeve, @TDC.





Edward Perera said:


> I am very sorry for my delay in replying.
> There is a gap of 33.5 mm from the top surface of the piston to the top end of the sleeve, @TDC.


Wow, that is quite a gap. I have designed the piston to be at TDC when it is just below being tangent to the Spark Plug hole  (toward the crank), which I have at .280" (7.1mm) from the top (Head end) of the Cylinder and Liner. I'm making the Liner shoulder wide enough to have the Spark Plug thread through the Cylinder and Liner + a bit for material strength. 

I just about have the 3D modeled in Solidworks, with all parts moving as they would be in the operating engine (learning as I go) now to get the cam to compress the Exhaust Valve Spring and I'm there, I think :-| !!!


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## Ken Brunskill (Aug 8, 2020)

TonyM said:


> Ken.
> As you are making this from scratch at a smaller scale you should know that the design, as is, gives a very low compression ratio. Something like 2 - 2.5 : 1.  This is insufficient to make the engine work consistently well. You should design the head with a spigot rather than a recess and maybe increase the piston length in order to increase the compression ratio to at to 4.5 - 5 : 1.


Tony,

At the moment I have the stroke at 1.500" (38mm) and a .875" (22mm) OD piston. I've yet to work out what the volume is in the head cavity where the Exhaust Valve lives, with your comment, I will put that on the to do list.


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## Swenjoy (Feb 21, 2022)

I am progressing well with my engine, i am currently thinking of what fuel is used or fuel mixture, could someone please advise me  also am thinking about the ignition system, i am not an electric/electronics type of person so as much help in this field would be greatly appreciated.
in anticipation
Swen 
Australia


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## rutzen (Feb 21, 2022)

With these low compression engines the fuel doesn't seem to matter much.  I just use ordinary unleaded in my Rumely tractor engine and that works fine.


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## Jasonb (Feb 21, 2022)

I tend to use Colemans fuel as it does not smell as much as petrol.


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## awake (Feb 21, 2022)

I too use the Coleman fuel. Occasionally I mix in just a bit of WD-40 to provide some internal lubrication; others here tend to run a mix all the time.

The basic idea behind most ignition systems is the use of a coil to generate high voltage, along with a way to induce and then break current in that coil. When the current is broken from the coil, the built-up electromagnetic force wants to go somewhere - and it is allowed to go through the spark plug. So here is a simple, mostly mechanical system:

A coil has its high-voltage output connected to a spark plug, and one lead connected to 12V and the other lead connected to a set of mechanical "points" - simply a momentary switch. The switch is connected to ground (usually via the engine itself). The cam shaft on the engine has a "flat" on it that allows the switch to close, completing the circuit in the coil and allowing it to charge up. Then when the camshaft turns to the point that the flat transitions back to the round, the switch is opened. This breaks the current in the coil, and as described above, the result is a high voltage spark from the high-voltage output, through the spark plug. The timing of the spark is controlled by the placement of the points (switch) relative to the flat on the camshaft.

There are additional refinements, starting with a condensor (basically a capacitor) attached to the points (switch) to help improve the spark and reduce wear on the points. Automobiles with this type of ignition would have a vacuum line from the engine that would adjust the ignition timing in relation to the speed of the motor.

One can replace some or all of the mechanical components with electronic components. For example, instead of points switching the current on and off, one can use a transistor. Instead of a flat spot activating the points, one can use a magnet and a "hall effect transitor," or some sort of optical switch, or other means to time the spark. Some electronic systems charge up a capacitor to deliver the spark. And so on ...

I would encourage you to spend some time reading through Wikipedia or other sources on ingition systems, and study the plans of some engines to see how they are implementing the ignition. I hope this is helpful ...


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## minh-thanh (Feb 21, 2022)

Hi Swen !
 As Andy said, there are many types of ignition, you choose one ,  then it will be easier if you need help .


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## Thommo (Feb 21, 2022)

Swenjoy said:


> I am progressing well with my engine, i am currently thinking of what fuel is used or fuel mixture, could someone please advise me  also am thinking about the ignition system, i am not an electric/electronics type of person so as much help in this field would be greatly appreciated.
> in anticipation
> Swen
> Australia



Hey Swen, any chance of some happy snaps of your engine?


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## a41capt (Feb 22, 2022)

I can’t answer any questions regarding the electrical beyond an ordinary points breaker system with coil, condenser, and battery.  However, especially during early break in, I use Coleman fuel (lighter hydrocarbons) with a small amount of Blendzall Green Label castor.  I’ve found that, much like my old 2-stroke race bikes, compression is improved prior to the rings being thoroughly seated by a relatively rich mixture of a good two stroke oil.  I prefer the plant based castor oil even though some claim it forms a gum or varnish.  A side benefit is the great smell!

John W


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## Swenjoy (Feb 23, 2022)

Thankyou so much for the many replies, i will try to post Photo of where i am up to, Thommo are you making this model?


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## Swenjoy (Feb 23, 2022)

awake said:


> I too use the Coleman fuel. Occasionally I mix in just a bit of WD-40 to provide some internal lubrication; others here tend to run a mix all the time.
> 
> The basic idea behind most ignition systems is the use of a coil to generate high voltage, along with a way to induce and then break current in that coil. When the current is broken from the coil, the built-up electromagnetic force wants to go somewhere - and it is allowed to go through the spark plug. So here is a simple, mostly mechanical system:
> 
> ...


Thankyou very much


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## Arild (Feb 24, 2022)

Edward Perera said:


> Having got inspired by  the thread started by gg89220,  I purchased the castings from TS Models-Germany, and started  work.  As some time was spent before the castings arrived, I thought of doing some work on the Wagon. I contacted  TonyM, who also was showing interest in gg89220's build, regarding constructing the Wagon. After a few communications I constructed the wheels first.
> View attachment 116077
> 
> View attachment 116078
> ...


Impressive! But how did you make the rim and rubber? Or is it available some place?


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## Jasonb (Feb 24, 2022)

Your previous batch of posts got me interested in this engine and I started to look at the TS model but it soon became apparent that there were quite a few deviations from the original so I started to draw it up from scratch but got side tracked with other projects. maybe seeing your progress photos will inspire me to do a bit more work on my redesign.


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## Arild (Feb 24, 2022)

TonyM said:


> The castings are mostly aluminium. Reasonably good quality with no porosity, Spigots etc. are well positioned so holes are relatively central.  Flywheel and base are CI. The flywheel had no hard spots and needed minimum fettling. Altogether very pleased with the result. I wanted to make mine nearer the original so have made a few mods to the plans. The camshaft gears being the main one. Mine is the same orientation as Edwards


Is there a place I can get only the drawing from?


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