# Jan Ridders Flame Licker question



## DICKEYBIRD (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm gathering materials (and my wits) to build Mr. Ridders' horizontal engine with the internal valve/contra-piston from his plans download.  I have a couple of questions:

1) In reading John's (bogstandard) posts about his twin, he mentioned having to heat the cylinder with a torch prior to starting.  Is this the norm?  If so, is there another design that will run without having to do this?  My goal is to have one on my desk at work that will run without having to drag out a torch just to get it started.

2) I've seen other flame licker designs that had (I think) aluminum cylinders with steel or iron sleeves and an iron piston.  I have a large stock of aluminum but almost no cast iron.  Are aluminum cylinders inherently harder to get to run due to the different thermal characteristics or are they actually better?  I don't mind the extra work.

Thanks for any input!


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## Bogstandard (Oct 2, 2007)

Hi, 
The reason for the heating with a blowtorch was to get the engine up to working temperature quickly (about 1 minute) otherwise it can take up to about 10 minutes (5 to 6 is the norm) for the flame to thoroughly warm the cylinder to working temperature. If you are contemplating having one on your desk I would consider getting some sort of heatproof base as these engines get rather hot.
Rick tried one out of aluminium and couldn't get it to run. Maybe he can tell you the problems with ali. 
The engine relies on the carbon content of the cast iron as its main friction reducing agent, plus the fact that having all cast iron pistons and cylinder keeps the different expansion rates under heat to an acceptable level.
I suppose you could try it with a cast iron sleeved cylinder, but I personally think you would have distortion problems plus at certain positions the cylinder wall is very thin (at the intake port), this would cause problems getting a full aluminium sheath to cover the sleeve in this area.
With reference to other plans available, again, Rick is the man to talk to about this as he is a bit of a guru on the flame licker engines.
Hope this helps.

John


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## rake60 (Oct 2, 2007)

Personally I've never been able to get a flame licker to run with anything
other than a cast iron cylinder.  I'm no metallurgist, but I believe it 
involves cast irons ability to hold heat without warping. 
The easiest to run flame licker I've ever built was the Poppin (Plans)





It requires no pre-heating of the cylinder to get it to run.
It's a forgiving design with only one part being truly critical.  That part 
would be the valve cam.  The nice thing about the plans is they are almost
perfectly to scale when you print them out.  You can use them to trace the
cam profile on to the steel to be cut to make the cam.

Rick


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## mklotz (Oct 2, 2007)

This one






seems to run just fine with an aluminum cylinder so it can be done.

However, I do warm the cylinder with the alcohol lamp to get it to start more quickly.  It will start without such warming but it takes longer which just proves that the cylinder has to reach some elevated temperature lest the gas quench too quickly.

This is one of the engines I use when I lecture grade school kids about the evolution of primary movers.  I've discovered that the over-protected scions of nanny-state yuppies will listen raptly if anything involving an open flame is being discussed.  I must presume that they've never seen fire.


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## Lew Hartswick (Oct 2, 2007)

mklotz said:
			
		

> I've discovered that the over-protected scions of nanny-state yuppies will listen raptly if anything involving an open flame is being discussed.  I must presume that they've never seen fire.



A bunch of future "pyros" in the making. 
Reminds me of a nephew of ours that managed to burn down a barn when
he was a medium sized tyke.
   ...lew...


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## lugnut (Oct 2, 2007)

Marv your statement :
"_I've discovered that the over-protected scions of nanny-state yuppies will listen raptly if anything involving an open flame is being discussed. I must presume that they've never seen fire_."
Has to be the funniest words I've read in a long, long time. I plan to show it to a school teacher friend,  I know she will love it!
Mel


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## DICKEYBIRD (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks for the input, oh ye experienced ones.  Sounds like I need to get hold of some cast iron.  I found "Gray Iron" at Enco, my favorite "gettin" place.  Does this look OK?  http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=676&PMITEM=891-6530

The vision of a running engine on my desk began with with the thought of converting one of my old OS Max FS .40 (4-stroke) model aircraft engines to spark ignition and butane fuel.  The Maier butane display engines with the piezoelectric ignition fascinate me but are a bit pricey(!).

I thought I would make a heavy flywheel, a small fixed venturi/gas jet and a spark ignition using a small auto DIS coil and either conventional pts. & cond. or a Jerry Howell style transistor igntion.  It would have an electric starter with a 12v NiCD battery pack so that to start up, I'd press the starter button to spin the engine over, then slowly open the butane valve until it fired up and then adjust for a smooth, slow putt-putt-putt(preferably a ta-pocketa, ta-pocketa, ta-pocketa) run. 

This idea's getting a little too involved for my available spare time right now so I'm leaning towards building an entry level Stirling or Flame-Licker to display and (hopefully) run.

Maybe when I get a few successful engines under my belt I could build my own I.C. engine with spark igntion and propane fuel.


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## mklotz (Oct 3, 2007)

Another good source for small quantities of stock is Metal Express.  Here's the URL for their cast iron.

http://tinyurl.com/3c9zwn

While they're not inexpensive, their service is excellent (insert standard disclaimer here) and they sell small quantities.  I don't mind paying a bit extra to have known material in the size I need delivered directly.  It's worth it to me to not spend the time and gas traveling all over town or using some mystery metal of unknown provenance.  YMMV.


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