# Dynamo build by castings



## manfred albert

Hello to all of You,

in the last year I have learned howe a dynamo works and build my one CNC mill.
The design work of the dynamo is done. Most of the pattern are finished. The foundry is next to my door, but still it takes time to get the parts on hand.

Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

Manfred-

That is a very nice looking generator.

I have wanted to design/build one ever since I saw one on a Cretors last year (photo below).

Can you share any information on number of poles, wire size, voltage, phase, amps, power, etc?

Are you planning on selling a casting kit?


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## manfred albert

Hello,

sorry I put in a wrong pic, now the correct one.
The generator have 12 coils, 32 magnets. The AC voltage and amp`s I don't now jet. It coud be wired to 3 phase, but I going to wire it by a single phase. The wire size is 0.5mm. The generator have no cooging at all, to operate on modell engines with less power.
If the generator works well You can buy a set of casting and magnets.

Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

Manfred-

Thanks for the information.

They still operate large motors like that in this city.
I got a few photos of one a few years ago at one of the stormwater runoff plants.

Pat J


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## JorgensenSteam

A few more photos of a medium voltage motor.
Probably 1500 hp, 4.16 KV.

Early 1900's vintage? or maybe later.

Motor diameter is approximately 10 feet.


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## JorgensenSteam

Stator connection.

You can always use a wound stator like this and power it with DC, if you want to avoid the use of magnets.


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## Don1966

I love those photos Pat, we do have an old power plant here with these old generators. I am also interested in your Dynamo Manfred. That looks like a very interesting project. I have be wanting to build my own dynamo base on Tesla's design. It is just getting the time to get started. I would like to visits Tesla,s museum one day to see all his photo types. 

Regards Don


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## tel

Interesting project Manfred, I'll be watching!


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## manfred albert

Hello Pat and Ron,

I`m going to report step by step. Than it become easy to build one by yourself.

Regards Manfred


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## picclock

Hi Manfred

Just my 2 cents worth. 

I think you may have trouble getting many volts out of the dynamo as the wire size will limit the number of turns that can be made. May I suggest just winding one core with very thin wire and measuring the voltage produced. This will give you an easy way to get the correct number of turns for your required voltage output. You can then determine the correct wire diameter as being the size which will almost fill the available winding space.

The gap between the magnet and the core laminations is quite critical. I wound several small brushless motors for one of my radio controlled helicopters, which have a very similar mechanical arrangement with the exception that the magnet was a ring with multiple poles running outside the winding laminations.

Good luck with your project.

Best Regards

picclock


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## manfred albert

Hello picclock,

I set the magnets on the rotor, this one goes into the lathe and a test coil tell`s me the voltage output. A similar generator have a output of 16 V AC / 1000 rpm. With the late I can messure the different voltage depending on the airgap. Closed as possible is the best solution and give the highest output. I inspecting 8 - 10 volts.

Best Regards Manfred


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## bearcar1

Hello Manfred, having been witness to some of your work in the past, I have no doubt that this small dynamo will be a success. I'll be watching as well. These power generating devices are justas interesting now as when we were all small lads.


BC1
Jim


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## Herbiev

Great project manfred. I was just wondering if a stripped down stepper motor would give you the correct size wire and a bunch of permanent magnets.


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## manfred albert

Hello Herbie,

to find out the coil size is not a problem, some test and you know what to due. I have learned in a forum _*das windrad*_ to build a dynamo. 4 testgenerators I build to get some experience. The pic show the set up of a coil test.
So I hope this Small one one gets some bulbs on.

Best Regards Manfred


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## stevehuckss396

You might find this interesting. The motor is 13,200 volt and the generator is 250 volt at 8,000amps. I found it at the steel mill in the Ford Rouge complex. The Motor/Gen set is still used today.


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## stevehuckss396

Motor and generator name plates.


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## Herbiev

Hi Manfred. It looks like you have done your homework on the subject so along with others i shall follow the build with great interest with the aim of making one also. 
Kind regards
Herbie

P.S Lots of pictures please


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## Don1966

Manfred I would put a small load on the circuit when testing voltage just to stabilize the voltage reading. 200 ma would be enough. I also notice from you photo your meter has a battery lite on. I would replace the battery and recheck the voltage again. Low battery indicators tell you there is a problem and can give you a incorrect reading.

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

Hello 	stevehuckss396,

Ja a nameplate is a must, first trial on this object are done. see the pic, a testobjekt (pattern) is already in the foundry.

Hi Don, all the up coming electrical test we are going to handle that together. I make the measurements and you the calculation, if you agree.

Best Regards Manfred


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## oilmac

Manfred has started a most intriguing subject with his generator, Which i for one find a change from engines, Large electric motors &generators of the era of Manfreds model have a fascination brought on by the size, & elegant design of the castings used in the construction of these great things,  This fact coupled to the effortless manner in which they operated is to me a greatly ignored & undervalued branch of engineering

 taking a comparison of similar products of today, we find the designs are very plain &not particularly interesting to look at

 Thanks everybody who contributed to a most intresting thread.


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## Don1966

The dynamos of yesteryears were indeed interesting to say the least, but progress has changed all of this. The invention of new and better steel such as silicone steel has changed the size and construction of generators and motors making them more efficient and a lot smaller there there counterparts. Even the wire inside them has gone through transition as well. The wire was wrapped in cloth and silk for insulation. The new wire has high temperature rating that way exceed that of its counterpart and take up less room. 
Not very many people, even Electricians and Electronic Techs realize that all luxurys we have today in electricity and electronics was all give to us by one man. His name was Nikola Tesla a Serbian immigrant and a unselfish man who gave to mankind just to see his inventions work. Not to say there were not any other contributers like Micheal Faraday, Joseph Henery, Hippolyte Pixii, And many others, but Tesla,s contributions far exceed theres. The man that lit the world also give you the AC Generator ,Motor, all your fluorescent lighting,communication, TV, Robotics the list goes on. For a man that gave so much to the world he died in his hotel room in New York City a poor man. New York has a Erected a statue of him in his memory.
It took years after his death before his recognition was made public. He was my inspiration for the career I loved for 45 years. I hope some of you will look his name up on the Internet and see how great of a man he was. His many inventions and photo types are in a museum in Serbia.

Regards Don


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## rhitee93

Manfred, I think your design is very interesting. I would be up for a set of castings if you decide to move forward.

Good luck!


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## steamer

I would love to hear more about it!  


Dave


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## manfred albert

Hi Dave,

a old man (73 Y) is not so fast any more. Today I have done a "big job" , send the SLT data to shape ways to get the coil holder printed. The outside coil is more or less for deco, they will create some voltage. The inside coil is the real one.
The body have to be from plastic, the result is no cogging at all. That will be the advantage for a small and power less machine. If You google air coil or wind mill generator, You get many info`s on this subject. 

Best Regards Manfred


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## steamer

Sounds great Manfred! Take your time!

, I'll be watching! ;D

Dave


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## picclock

Hi Manfred

If you have the time, could you (or anyone else) explain how the 'no cogging' part of the generator works ? I tried googling the suggested air coils/wind mill generators but have not really found any good explanation. 

My understanding is that although you can generate electricity without using a core the source impedance is very high, in that when you try to draw current the voltage collapses quickly. 

If anyone can point me to a link with a simple (!) explanation I would be indebted. 

Many thanks

picclock


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## manfred albert

Hi picclok,

look at the videos from Bernd he is an expert on air coil generators and my teacher on this subject. I transfer only this know how into a modelgenerator to use with our little engines.

http://www.daswindrad.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=344 more pics and videos you find by googl under _air coil generator_

In this forum you also find the experiments I have done on this subject, sorry is written in German. But I am sure you will find a English speaking formun on wind generators to get good info`s on this subject.

A air coil generator, with out load, has no resistant the bearings are the only part that give you a very small resistant to the system.

Best Regards Manfred


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## manfred albert

Hi picclok,

watch this video on air coils [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-21MAznLs&NR=1&feature=endscreen[/ame]
A motor runs as generator as well. 
I`m not sure, but will try to run the outside windings as 3 phase motor windings to get a motor and a generator in one machine.

Best Regards Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

I would be very cautious spinning a plastic (or metal) wheel at high rpm like that.
Those magnets can and will fly out of there some day when the wheel gives way, and you won't want to be nearby when it happens.

Just a word of caution when spinning things at high rpm.
I had a wood wheel explode when I spun it one time.
Not a good thing.


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## picclock

Hi Manfred

Thank you very much for your prompt reply and the link to the german page. I was able to use google translate to get a very good understanding of how this works. Its a very clever system in that there are no iron losses, so might even be more efficient than the conventional methods.

Looking forward to seeing the project completed.

Best Regards

picclock


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## steamer

Generates more power than it uses?....sure about that Don?


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## mklotz

Don1966  said:
			
		

> If tuned correctly it will product more energy then it takes to run it. The concept works ...



Arrgh! Please, please tell me you didn't say that.


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## JorgensenSteam

I have seen a lot of junk science, but the above is one of the better examples of it.

Energy (in the world we know, ie: on the earth) is neither created nor destroyed.
You can only change it from one form to another, and always at a loss.

Fundamental rule of physics.
And the earth is not flat either.

No disrespect intended, but it makes my hair stand on end when I see absurd energy claims. They can always be proven wrong simply by measuring energy in and comparing it with energy out, and following scientific rules (ie: you take real measurements with accurate test equipment).


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## manfred albert

Hello to all of You,

my intention is build a small model generator. This fantastic ideas are not on my agenda and I don`t believe they will work.
But the iron less generator will work well and used in many industrial application. This is one of the oldest method to generate power. With the new earth magnets this system come the last yeahrs in to the focus again.
But China have raised the price for earthmagnets, so I`m happy to have about 3000 magnets for the old and lower price.

Best Regards Manfred


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## Dan Rowe

Manfred,
This is very interesting to me and it will be a nice way to put a steam engine or IC engine to work. I will be watching your progress.

Dan


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## steamer

...not trying to defy the laws of physics...


Couldn't agree more. Some of the worlds greatest discoverys were made by people who defied the norm and asked "why not"

Acceptance comes about with rigorous test and the reporting of repeatable and reproducable data, and not opinion.

So, Gear shift firmly planted in "Easy"! .....But you can also understand , to put it every so gently, a good deal of healthy "skeptizism".

I've been making my living with existing laws of thermodynamics and their principles for nearly thirty years.....and I eat well ;D

Dave


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## arnoldb

Mandfred, this will be a very interesting build; count me in as following along :bow:

Gents, shall we let Manfred get back to his thread ? 

Kind regards, Arnold


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## rhitee93

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> Gents, shall we let Manfred get back to his thread ?



To that point Manfred, I am still eager to see how your generator progresses. I'd like to have a set of castings some day even if I have to design my own windings, so you have at least one customer


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## JorgensenSteam

I would not get too worried about rare earth magnets.

Most motors/generators do not use them, but instead have wound stators.
With a would stator, you can apply DC current to the stator, and create any level of magnetism you want, without using magnets.

Magnets are very convenient for a small motor/generator, and are a more simple approach, but not the only approach.

You can also make a 3-phase synchronous motor if you use a wound stator, if you need to operate at a precise and constant speed regardless of load.


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## Don1966

Sorry Manfred for getting off the track. I look forward to more of your input and photos of your motor. If I understood you correctly you will generate output will motorizing the motor. I am curious to see your motor when completed. The motor photo type you showed a video of had switching transistors to run it , is this correct?
Manfred I have remove all of my previous post and I do apologize for this, it was not my intension to disrupt your thread and in advertability I did. 

Regards Don


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## remshagen

Hello Everybody,

please let me tell you something about the generator on the video
to avoid missunderstanding:
This technology from john bedini is not a classic generator that
produces ac current as we know. It is based on teslas principes
producing energy from a "collapsing magnetic field"
Two windings are on one coil and there are two Batteries: 
a master coil and a trigger coil and a drive and a charge battery.
The trigger coil powered by the drive battery move the magnet 
forward and the master coil gets a short high voltage pulse.
The Energy of the "collapsing field" comes up in the charge battery.
You can charge a lot of batterys simultaneously with one drive
battery even you have 23 percent mechanical energy free.
With a good setup you can charge a lot of very big batteries.
I have built some machines like that, even that on the video.
I'm sorry for my bad english.

Greetings, Andreas


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## manfred albert

Hello Don,

don`t feel sorry, of road tracking is also fun.

To give You a idea on the size of the Generator, here is a pic, with the all over dimesion.

The polyurethane material for the pattern is excellent, but have look at my workshop. 

Best Regards
Manfred


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## remshagen

Hello Manfred,

a question to your generator that looks very
professional:
at how many rpm you want to drive it?
I used a DC ec-motor for generating current
and had to run it on more then 1000 rpm to
get out a useful current.

Regards, Andreas


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## steamer

That looks like a fairly sizable generator Manfred.  I like the router too!

Dave


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## manfred albert

Hello Dave,

if I compare this 2 generators, than it is a small one. The 2nd part of the pattern for the stator housing is done. Some final work is left. Next week the pattern can go into the foundry.
Andreas I`m not a electrical engineer, so I`m not able to calculate the results ahead. We just have wait what`s the outcome is. By experience I think at 500 rpm/min the outcom are 8-12V AC.
In this Forum we have an engineer, he has build a generator, based one a fan motor with an excellent result: low rpm and high voltage. I hope he put in some picture and the data of his generator.

Best Regards
Manfred

in the preview the pic don`t come up, is that o.k. or I make a mistake ?


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## steamer

in the preview the pic don`t come up, is that o.k. or I make a mistake ?


Probably not a mistake.  I can see it fine!

Dave


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## Don1966

Manfred I really like the design of your motor. Will the outside casting be plastic or aluminum? I know you said that the coil forms will all be plastic with no core.

Don


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## manfred albert

Hi Don,

there are 2 ways possible, you can make it from polyurethane or aluminium. My generator will be aluminium. The coil holder have to be from plastic, to get a isolation to the aluminium. If I don`t due that, I`m creating a Wirbelstrombremse = Eddy-current brake.
The green material, what I`m using for the pattern, is very strong You could use it with out problem ( no foundry is needed ) Material spec. shore-d 88-89 / ISO 868
This stuff is easy to paint, aluminium is more difficult.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## Don1966

You have really done your homework if you understand eddy currents. Thanks for your reply, looking forward to more of your photos and replies.

Regard Don


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## ronkh

I can see it okay Manfred!

Regards,

Ron.


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## manfred albert

Hello,

so the pattern work is done. The latest pattern is the base plate. The coil holder are also finished and I can start the coil winding job. So far the generator project runs without trouble. Hopefully it goes on this way.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

Manfred-

Your patterns look great.
What metal will you use when you pour?

Pat J


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## Don1966

Beautiful job Manfred the dynamo is looking good I really like the look. Please keep the photos coming.

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

Hello Don,

it`s a nice day to day, the first stuff has returned from the foundry in the material Ms and it fit on the base plate. 

Best Regards
Manfred


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## lazylathe

Those look like very nice castings Manfred!!

This is going to be an interesting build to follow!

Do you have a plan for the dynamo?
Anything special that is going to run it?
What is it going to power?

Andrew


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## rhitee93

Very nice


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## gbritnell

Great work Manfred,
This is going to be a wonderful addition to your collection not to mention that it will also be functional.
gbritnell


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## steamer

Those parts awesome Manfred!

 :bow:

Dave


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## manfred albert

Hello Andrew,

have look one page 1, there is the generator assembly by CAD drawing. So each part have a metric drawing.
The generator will be in step one a stand alone version and in the second step the generator run with a steammotor. The design is half done.
What to power, I don`t know. That I will find out later.
I have build my one CNC mill where I running my patterwork on. All the pattern are done on this mill.
My objectiv is to build a generator with no cogging at all to run any low power modell engine.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## lazylathe

Thanks Manfred! ;D

Are you also going to be posting your steam motor build here?
I am really enjoying your work!

Are you a member on the German site Dampfforum??
I spend too much time on that site being amazed!!

Andrew


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## arnoldb

Very nice castings Manfred; they look great Thm:

You mentioned the "material Ms" - is the "Ms" for Messing ? I'm asking because the castings look like brass or bronze and messing in English is brass.

Looking forward to your progress!

Kind regards, Arnold


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## manfred albert

Hello Arnold,

_Are you a member on the German site Dampfforum??_ Yes and I cooperate with *Dampfotto*. His 4 cylinder V-steammotor I have in mind to run with the generator.

Manfred


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## lazylathe

Hi Manfred,

What username do you use on Dampfforum?
I cannot locate you using your name on this forum.

Andrew


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## Rustkolector

Manfred,
I am very impressed with your work on your dynamo project. I am particularly interested in the air coil design you are using. I have reviewed information on both the axial and radial air coil designs, and your adaptation to a model dynamo is quite unique.

I have built two model dynamo projects, but unlike you, I am a bit lazy. I started with solid core motor type stators. My most recent dynamo project required a very slow speed dynamo to give reasonable voltage at 200 to 700 RPM. So far, I am very pleased with its performance. I started out with an 18 pole 200 RPM ceiling fan stator with a solid laminated core. The cogging effect found with most PM motor conversions can be annoying, and can introduce some starting torque requirement, as you have mentioned. In my case, I was able to effectively minimize the cogging effect. 

Your dynamo patterns and castings look GREAT. You do very nice work! I look forward to your progress posts. 

Jeff


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## manfred albert

Hello Jeff,

the fan motor give You a excellent result and to minimice cogging, have a look http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/3538/decogging_tutorial_V1.pdf
I due like the coilwindings on this fan motor.
I have in mind , a small generator with a touch of a historical outfit. I believe that it could be done, for a less price, with the fan coil. 

Best Regards
Manfred


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## Rustkolector

Manfred,
Yes, that is the same website I used for understanding and minimizing my dynamo cogging issues. My fan stator core is 25.4 mm in length. I used the helix method with skewed neodymium bar magnets, and my cogging torque is very low. Neodymium magnets are usually the first choice for building dynamos, but I don't believe neodymium magnets are the best choice for a motor conversion "model" dynamos. Neo magnets are expensive and "very" fragile. They can also be too strong for model dynamo needs. They can create excessive side thrust on sleeve type bearings if the air gap is not held precisely, and their strength can create severe assembly difficulties in a solid stator core. Neodymium magnets would not be a problem with your air coil design dynamo. If you want maximum voltage and power the neodymium magnets are the best choice, but I will probably use less powerful magnets in my next fan motor dynamo.  

Jeff


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## Don1966

Manfred I have a question. In reviewing the video you posted early in the thread, was this one of yours are did you use it as an example? One of the reasons I am asking, is you had said in the post it was a air core motor, but in watching the video at the end a close up showed metel core in it. This motor was also running on DC with switching transistors. 
I will presume that your motor will run on AC instead of DC (with switching transistors). Can you verify this for me? It will make a great AC generator and a unique one at that. Every photo shows your attention to details, this will make a great add on to all of our steam engines. I look forward to your completion.

Regards. Don


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## manfred albert

Hello Don,

I`m sorry on that mistake, I just have used this video for a example on air coils. It is difficult fore me to explain, what an air coil is and how it works.
If some one in the comunity can explain that what a air coil is, that would be nice. My English level is to low for that, but growing with every write up.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

Hello,

the google maschine is great, I found a link what is a air coil?

http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/air_coils.html


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## JorgensenSteam

From the paper that was posted here the other day concerning generators using air-core coils, the efficiency was surprisingly high.

The paper mentioned the advantage of using air-core coils for windmill and other low-torque applications, where the "cogging" effect found with iron-cores would not be desirable.

Likewise, with a small steam driven model generator, it would be very advantageous to minimize or eliminate the cogging effect, since it would cause a rough running model/system.

Larger rotating devices like motors, and non-rotating devices such as transformers, almost always use iron cores, with the cores maked up of laminated and varnished thin steel layers. Iron cores are built up in layers I believe to minimize eddy currents.

So I have to think that for large electrical devices, an iron core is the way to go if you are going to produce significant amounts of power.

Pat J


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## manfred albert

Pat,
I agree on Your points, there is an other aspect high voltage and high power could be dangerous and I don`t need that.

Now the last pattern are really finished and they can move to the foundry. The patter are very strong, so I could use them direct to build the generator or other stuff. The link tells You more about this material.

http://toolingandcomposites.sika.com/en/solutions_products/03/03a001.html

Best Regards
Manfred


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## Don1966

Thanks Manfred I did not think the video related to your dynamo. I am familiar with air core coils. Your last photo show how close you are to completation. Will you be offering kit for the Dynamo? In kit I mean casting kits. I am interested in one.

An Pat you are correct about the laminated cores. They are insulated and laminated to reduce eddy currents. For those unfamiliar with eddy currents. It is currents induced into the iron core by magnetic fields surrounding the windings. And I will keep this short and you can google it.

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

Hello Don,

I have made an order of 3 gray cast iron kits. One for my son one for me and a spare one.The price I don`t know jet. All the packing shipping will be handled by Maria. The coil body is a 3D print made by shapeways an US company. For this part I can send You the STL file, so You get it printed locally. An other point, I have in my stock tausends neodym magnets grade 45H for a very low price.
But be for we go in to that things let us see how this generator works. The next step is to prepare a test coil, get the rotor finished and run the tests. With that information we will get some idea what the outcome is.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## lazylathe

Looks excellent Manfred!!!

Are you going to post all the build photo's of the generator?
I love to see all the set ups and machining steps that everyone uses.

Andrew

PS- thanks for the Dampfforum name, the engine you have posted there is amazing! :bow:


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## rhitee93

Looks great Manfred.

I'll be very interested in a casting set if you decide to make them available. The idea about including the STL file for the coil form would be great as I have sources for printing those parts.

Good luck!


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## Don1966

Yes Manfred, let us get all the testing done and we can go from there. When you do start to test I would suggest a small load be put on the generator, because of the high impedance of the generator. This way we would get an average voltage reading instead of a static reading before loading. By stepping the load by a decade resistor box and monitoring the voltage till it reaches half voltage we can calculate the impedance of the stator. This would be our max load and we can calculate the current from this impedance, and it makes a simple method of doing it.

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

Hi Brian,

check You email, the STL file, a picture and a drawing for the coil body are there.
Be for start printing, wait for the test results from the coil.

Hi Don, 
the coil test, we are going to make that together. Now we are getting more and more a international team. That is what I like, let us get all our_ knoff hoff_ together.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

Hello,

the first coil is ready for a test. In the center I put the magnet for demonstration only.
The wire is 0.5mm and baked together with ethanol. The amount of windings are 30 turns. Few moor turns are possible, I thing 35 - 40 will fit into the coil body center.
The rotor is still in the foundry, so we have to wait.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

a week delayed on my castings. Don`t wait, make your on rotor from plastic. I want to know what is the outcoming of this coil. ( 24 magnets only, 32 magnets is the plan )

Inside coil:wire 0.5mm, length 2.9m resistance 0.08706 OHM/m 35 windings 
Outside coil the same.

at 1000 rpm and the air gap 0.5mm with out load

inside coil 1V, outside coil 0.5V that will increase about 10% with a iron rotor

So with a total of 12V I`m in a safe voltage range to operate a model engine.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

again one week delay with the castings.

2.nd coil winding

wire size 0.355mm and 70 windings, with out load and the plastic rotor with 24 magnets at 1000 rpm. The original rotor is from iron with 36 magnets.

the inside coil 2V and the outside coil 1V, the total with 12 coils 36V AC

The home fan motors are using 0.2mm wire and go up to more than 100V AC in a generator application, there is a wide range to manipulate the output voltage.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

Manfred-

Thanks very much for sharing that information, and taking the time to post it.

Pat J


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## Don1966

Looking great Manfred, keep the photos coming. I am waiting to see it completed. Have you decided what voltage to use for the final design?

Don


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## manfred albert

Don I`m going to use the second coil testwinding as described above. Some more pics on the arrangement of the coils and the magnets.

Best regards
Manfred


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## JorgensenSteam

Manfred-

Those are great renderings.
The colors are superb.

Pat J


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## Don1966

Manfred that is superb work. I love it and look forward to seeing it in action soon.

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

The coil winding program is started. The most importend feature is the mechanical counter, because I can count only up to 3 ??? The outside windings and the inside windings are get 70 turns each.
That is an easy job, 2 min. for one coil. I think the pics are going to show the process.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## arnoldb

That's good going Manfred Thm:
I like your coil winder :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## manfred albert

to keep control over the 48 coil wires I'm using a simple system. Each coil on the beginning has a loop and the coil body are a number from 1-12. All the coils are winded in the same direction.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## lazylathe

Excellent progress Manfred!!! :bow:

This is way over my head but it is a very enjoyable thread to follow!!!
Can't wait to see the machining processes!!!!

Andrew


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Andrew,

This is way over my head, I have had the same way of thinking as You. Belive; a flammliker is more difficult to build, than a generator. Most of us are mechanical trained, I'm too.
So I'm watching in a windmill forum how to build all these stuff, they due know how to due it. They put me one the right road.
You are a young man, You can due it. I`m 73 years old daddy, so it is some time... ???

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## manfred albert

Hello,

today the parts from the foundry cam in. So the mechanical part of the generator I can start.

Regards
Manfred


----------



## steamer

Those are beautiful parts Manfred....Says a lot about the patternmaking! :bow:

Well done!

Dave


----------



## Don1966

Manfred, now I am excited to see the casting going into progression. You are going to start machining the casting and I am looking forward to photos and documention of the progress. 

Don


----------



## rhitee93

+1 on what Don and Dave said. You certainly have good skills as a pattern maker, and I am excited to see the next steps!


----------



## manfred albert

the next step is the rotor. I have to make a decision on a single phase or a 3 phase rotor.
3 phase are 12 coils and 32 magnets on the rotor
1 phase are 12 coils and 36 magnets on the rotor

A point of intrest is, how is the voltage change between a iron rotor and the plastic rotor.

Regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

Manfred if I had my option I would pick the single phase version. What we will be powering if connected to a steam engine is to run lamps off of it to demonstrate that we are suppling power from it. 

Don


----------



## manfred albert

Yes Don it become a single phase generator, I don`t need a home power station.
With the air coil it is easy to style any type of generator, AC or DC or what ever you like.
The machining I have started to day, most of the operation are simple. Ruffing on the mill the down side and grinding the top side. But the top side could be done one the mill as well.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

Hi! Manfred glad to see you back and starting to machine the casting. Your surface grind does a great job. glad to see your choice was single phase, I think everyone in the states will perfer this. I will be here waiting with interest, and are your casting aluminum?

Don


----------



## johnthefish

Please mind that grinding wheel,looks like there is a piece chipped out


----------



## manfred albert

there is a piece chipped out.  That happend if workpieces like to fly.

Don, castings in aluminium is possible too. After I have finished this 3 sets, I`l try castings from polyurethane. I due have a vacuum system, so it should work. Because the price for castings went up.

The next step is the rotor withe the 36 magnet on it.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

From what I see in the photos are you going to make one with an iron rotor and one with polyurethane? The motors are looking good in your photos. 

Don


----------



## manfred albert

I have forgotten to explain, the withe rotor is a tool for aliening the parts on the base plate. It is importend to have a small air gap between the magnets and the coil. This is the only critical adjustment. 
This tool have three function:
1. for aliment
2. to fill up the coil with resin
3. to make the wirer connection of the coils befor final installing

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

Thanks for pointing that out Manfred. I would like to know what material the rotor will be made of? I know the rotor in your demo was polyurethane.

Don


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Fabulous work!

I think you'll be running into eddy current losses with the cast stator housing. I had a part I designed recently with a motor in an aluminum housing. The housing was aluminum and the airgap was 12mm or more. I test assembled it without the iron stator, and the eddy losses were extremely large, far more than I expected. This motor is 61mm long and the magnets only ~2.5mm thick. This is going to be a problem with air core coils. It may be less of a problem with the plastic rotor.

Greg


----------



## manfred albert

Don the rotor is made from iron casting, that is planed for to day, now it is 7:30 AM.
Greg, if I run into the eddy current problem, I`m going to change the housing to polyurethane.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

the day is gone and the 3 rotors are not finished. The 36 grooves 1mm deep are left. Each rotor is made out of tow pieces and fixed on a center wheel.
The groove at the center is made with a keyway broaches under a press. The lathe operation are simple, nothing special.
To make all this parts from bar stock, that is only for highly trained experts.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## smfr

That's a neat stepped collet fixture you have there. Looks like it would hold various large sizes of flywheels and such? Did you make that?

Simon


----------



## steamer

That would be a bell collet.  Nice if you can find them...very popular in Europe.
They come in sets
Dave


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Simon,

each collet set are 6 pieces ( 6 inside and 6 outside ), the max. diameter are 70mm in steps of one mm. This tools belong to the weiler lathe.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

Hello,

from the drafting board to the pattern, from the patter to the casting parts without trouble. With a new construction a failure can be done easily.
The magnet on the rotor are glued with JBWELD. The space between the magnets become filled up with resin.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

Hi Manfred glad to see you are still making progress. The rotor look good and are there two magnets stacked together per position? I seem to see this on you last photo.

Don


----------



## manfred albert

Modification of the rotor layout. To find the best magnet configuration I have made several test. Test 5. give the best result. One layer of 36 magnet, tow magnet north and than tow magnet south and so on.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## manfred albert

a pic with the grinder in motion. Don`t grinde to hard, the magnets are start burning.   oooooooh the spell checker is gone ? *The most importend tool.*








Best Regards
Manfred


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## Henry

That tool is gone!!! :-D I miss it too, If you use Mozilla there is a way to set it for check spelling in everything that you write in Internet.


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## rhitee93

It is good to see an update Manfred.  Keep up the great work


----------



## Don1966

Manfred first Happy Birthhday. Glad to see you back on track I am waiting to see the completed dynamo. How is the project coming along?

Regards Don


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## manfred albert

Hello Don,

the project is going on. I`m closed to the painting job on this geni. I get 2 times 20V AC at 1000 rpm. So with low speed at the steam engine I can get 12V DC.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## Don1966

That is a good looking generator and represents the old generators of the times. I love it . Great work Manfred. Are you still going to product casting set?

Don


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## manfred albert

Hey Don,
I`m going to make one more rotor experiment. Than I have to finish and up to date the drawing work. I don`t like this shipping and packing work. I have in minde to place the pattern in the foundry and any one can make his one order.
A other way is to set up a *Team Project* and make a bulk order to the foundry to get a better price. 

Best Regards
Manfred


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## manfred albert

Hello,

the painting is done and my hands have the same color. I have no fun with that.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## rhitee93

Manfred, that is a beautiful design.  I would be in for a 1 or 2 sets of castings if a batch ever gets made.

Thanks for sharing your build with us


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## Sparticusrye

I would be interested in a set of casting depending on what it would cost.  Would make an excellent addition to any engine project.  What is the designed operating speed, RPM?



manfred albert said:


> Hey Don,
> I have in minde to place the pattern in the foundry and any one can make his one order.  A other way is to set up a *Team Project* and make a bulk order to the foundry to get a better price.


----------



## Don1966

I am in for a set or two of casting, but it would be cheaper if other members would request some.

Don


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## manfred albert

to call for quotation, subject: _Manfreds Generator_

Hepako Spezialguss GmbH
Mr. Jens Hansemann
Boschstr. 4
D-28857 Syke
Germany

e-mail: [email protected]

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## ChrisLister

I'm also in for a set or 2 of the castings.

Greetings,

Chris


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## rhitee93

I can't help but think that it would be more economical to have a batch of casting made and sent across the ocean than a bunch of individual orders.  I don't suppose anyone in North America, with deeper pockets than mine, would be willing to get a quote from the foundry for enough sets of castings to satisfy the short term need.  I'd be willing to put up the money in advance for whatever I decided to buy.

Manfred, thanks again for sharing your design with the rest of us.  I really like the styling of your generator and hope to build one


----------



## A1MACH

great job, I would also be interested in a set of castings.


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Brian,

I think one of you should make list with the names and how many sets. Than you shoud ask the price for one set. Than you should find  out the price for all sets to get a discount.
I have payed for one set  150,--
The weight of one set ist about 3 Kg and the shipping price by post is 
 36,-- that I have found out. The  goes down, so the time works for you.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

All,

I have sent an email to Mr. Hansmann asking about the cost of 10 sets of parts shipped to the USA.  I'll report back with the response.

I really don't want to be the front man for this, but if there is enough interest maybe we can find a way to pool our funds and do a group buy.


----------



## ChrisLister

We could place an group order and let sent them a package to the States and a package to somewhere in Europe?

I could do the Europe package.

And send them from here to the individual addresses.

Greetings,

Chris


----------



## manfred albert

HELP 

is there some one around  to sell or build smal instruments DC voltage and DC Amp in the old fashion look. I dont know how to due that.

Best Regards
Manfred


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## Don1966

Manfred I know of no one who makes mini meters. Iwish I could help you.

Brian have you received a quote on the casting set?

Don


----------



## larry1

Manfred,  Great piece of craftmanship,  very good looking.   larry


----------



## hi speed scrap

> is there some one around to sell or build smal instruments DC voltage and DC Amp in the 
> old fashion look. I dont know how to due that.


If its any help, try fleabay, a mate of mine recently purchased
some new bakelite imitation gauges from asia somewhere.
cant contact him at the moment.
An ebay search should turn them up.

Magnificent piece of work there to Manfred

Dave


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Dave,

I have a ebay order runnig with a round DC voltage and amp meter. But they are still to large, may be I can modify this instruments.
I think that is a hobby business for a man can due that. No stuff like that is on the market.
I`m working on a rotor modification to get better results. The electrical parts to change from AC to DC is an open order too.
A baseplate from wood is also almost finished.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

Manfred,
Back in the 70's and 80's it was fashionable to have "VU" meters on the front of your stereo.  These were very small d'arsonval meters, and the movement could probably be transplanted into a proper scale homemade case that looked old.  If you could find a couple of old junk stereos, the rest would be doable.  I can help you calculate the right shunt resistor values to make the modified meters read to the right scale.

Don, I haven't heard anything back about the casting yet.  Maybe I should find an intern at work that speaks German and try again in their language.


----------



## Don1966

Good idea Brin the VU meters would do. They all work on 0-1 MA or 0-50 micro amps.

Don


----------



## manfred albert

Hello,

the final rotor construction is found. Compared to the polyurethan rotor there is a voltage increas. The inside coil from 20V to 22,5V AC and the outside from 22,5V to 26,3V AC at 1000 rpm with out load. The final test with load a.s.o. I`m going to due if the DC stuff is installed.
The gap between the magnets are filled with resin.

Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## steamin

You can throw my name into the pot also. It would look great with the steam twin cylinder rope driven flywheel that I have sitting on the back burner.
Larry DuFour, Cary, NC


----------



## manfred albert

Larry, this rumor is going round and round in my head, a 2 zylinder belt drive or a 1 zylinder direct conected. I wait for the outcomming DC voltage to make a decision on that subject.
If I can get a 12 segment komutator than I`m going to build a DC generator in the same size.
Best Regards
Manfred


----------



## Bluechip

manfred albert said:


> HELP
> 
> is there some one around to sell or build smal instruments DC voltage and DC Amp in the old fashion look. I dont know how to due that.
> 
> Best Regards
> Manfred


 
Hi Manfred

Not quite sure what you need. Anything here suitable? UK source, but should be available anywhere in Europe I would think.

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=411+2005+204891&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=panel+meters&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=en_CC&divisionLocale=en_CC&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=411+2005+204891&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&autoApply=true&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN%3D411%2B2005%2B204891%26Ntk%3Dgensearch%26Ntt%3Dpanel%2Bmeters%26Ntx%3Dmode%2Bmatchallpartial%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Den_CC%26divisionLocale%3Den_CC%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D411%2B2005%2B204891

If you mean the black Bakelite items of years ago, the only sources I know are classic car restoration suppliers, at horrendous prices. 

Also, they will only have the centre-zero types of ammeter, ie, Charge / Discharge. 30 - 0 - 30 Amp etc.

EDIT:

( There are 3 pages of results for that search, see the bottom right at the end of the first page. )



Dave


----------



## ChrisLister

Just received a qoute for the generator set.

When I order 20 sets I must pay 203.6 euro per set.

So for 205 euro per set I can sell them. This is the price without P&P.

Greetings,

Chris


----------



## rhitee93

*I had this reply typed up and my system crashed this morning.  By the time I could get back on, Chris had replied with his results.  I'm not sure why the quotes are significantly different, but I decided to go ahead and send this in anyway.  *

All,

I received a quote back from the foundry that Manfred is using.  The long and short of it is that it will cost about $200US for a set of castings.  there is only a $15/set difference if we buy 1 set or 10 sets so there really isn't a big motivation to bring over a large batch and distribute them from here.
I would recommend that people contact the foundry directly and order the casting as they need them.  To this end I have attached a PDF copy of the quote for you to reference.
Thanks you again Manfred for sharing this design.  I hope to build one of these soon 
Below is a copy of my correspondence with Mr. Hansemann for reference:

_Am 25.07.2012 19:48, schrieb Dougherty, Brian C:
Mr. Hansemann,
A model engineering colleague by the name of Manfred has been telling a group of us about his recent generator build.  He tells us that you have made the castings for him, and that you may be willing to supply them to the model engineering community as a whole.
There are a number of people interested in obtaining sets of castings in the USA, and I am writing to see if you could give me an estimate of what it would cost to cast and ship 10 sets of Manfred&#8217;s generator parts.  I believe there are 6 parts required for each generator.
All I need is a rough estimate.  Once I understand the cost, I can get commitment on the actual number people want.  I would guess it will be about 10.
Thank you for your time.
Best regards&#8230;
-Brian
Dear Mr. Dougherty,
many thanks for your inquiry.                                                                                                                                                     As enclosure please find the offer for the generator.
To find out what the shipping cost please I need your komplete Adress.                                                                                In case you order the parts, I friendly ask you to pay the amount in advance.
 I hope our offer is attractive for you and look forward to your order.                                                                                     In case you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards
Jens Hansemann

Hepako Spezialguss GmbH
Boschstr. 4
D-28857 Syke

Fon. +49 (0) 4242/5477
Fax. +49 (0) 4242/66224
mail. [email protected]
www.hepako-giesserei.de_ 

View attachment Manfred's Generator Quote.pdf


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Dave,

I just have made a order for a book "houw to build your on instruments". Thanks for Your help.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## ChrisLister

Hi Brain,

I already calcullated the import tax with it. When the goods are entering Belgium they add 21% tax  and another 21% vat  (the vat can be recuperated by me). I also have another 40 euro's of transport on my quote.

But the castings cost indeed 158 euro for 1 set.

Greetings

Chris


----------



## rhitee93

Painful 



ChrisLister said:


> Hi Brain,
> 
> I already calcullated the import tax with it. When the goods are entering Belgium they add 21% tax  and another 21% vat  (the vat can be recuperated by me). I also have another 40 euro's of transport on my quote.
> 
> But the castings cost indeed 158 euro for 1 set.
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Chris


----------



## manfred albert

Hello,

the rectifiere are are temporaly installed.
Phase 1 and 2 prallel conected = 26,5V DC and serial conected = 48,8V DC. The mesurement is by 1000 rpm without load.
Than I have conected a bulb from the car 12V 21W see the pic.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

Manfred,

Can you tell me what the voltage across and current through the light bulb are when you are running at 1000 rpm?

Thanks...
-Brian


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Brian,

some work from the naibourhood I have to due, after that the examination of the generator goes on.

Best regards
Manfred

Where is the spell checker ?


----------



## manfred albert

Hello Brian,

without load 27,3V DC 1000rpm

with a load; car bulb 12V DC 21 watt, 1,45 A and 9,1V DC at 1000rpm

I have the plan to run 3,5V bulbs on the generator, so I have to come down with the rpm.

I think 10-12 Watt is a realistic output.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

Nice work Manfred.  You are putting just over 13 watts into your single bulb so you will not have any have a problem at 10-12W


----------



## manfred albert

to day I have had a phone conservation with one of my frinds Peter. He is in the situation of loosing his eay light, he is almost blind.
We are tooking about generator and he told me that he give up and he is going to sell his pattern and drawings on generators. If some one of You like to be go on with that, contact him.
Some pic of his work, more on his home page.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

I am sorry to hear about your friends eye sight.  Please tell him that his generator is beautiful.


----------



## manfred albert

later on You can`t see it, that is the place where the rectifiere and the wiring is installed. The base plate works like a heat think.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## steamin

I also am very saddened that your friend is loosening his eye sight. I can not begin to imagine his thoughts and feelings at this point in his life. Please let him know that many are keeping him in their thoughts and prayers.

Best regards,
Larry, Cary, NC, USA


----------



## Don1966

Manfred I too am sadden by you friends loss of eye sight. Please tell him he is in our prayers also. Your. Dynamo is one great project I have enjoyed your thread.

Don


----------



## manfred albert

Hello to all,

this job is finished. See You again with the next project.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## Don1966

Beautifully done Manfred, thank you for the journey. Loved it.

Don


----------



## rhitee93

Haben Sie vielen Dank!  Zugabe!


----------



## dsquire

Manfred

Thank you for allowing us to look over your shoulder while you designed, tested and built the dynamo. It certainly is a beautiful model. I shall look forward to your next model and hope that you will also share it with HMEM members.





Cheers 

Don​


----------



## manfred albert

Haben Sie vielen Dank!  Zugabe!  Hier ist die Zugabe

WARNING !!!! 

never let a Generator over night alone. You never can see what is going on. *beer*  My generatorbabys are a present from Peter.

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## rhitee93

manfred albert said:


> WARNING !!!!
> never let a Generator over night alone. You never can see what is going on. *beer*  My generatorbabys are a present from Peter.



Very funny! Rof}


----------



## manfred albert

Hello to all,

a video from the running generator under load. 2 bulbs 12V 10W and some LED.

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=dHWZtNtdONc

Best regards
Manfred


----------



## Steamchick

Has no-one made a Tesla disc generator? - suits the Tesla Turbine very well. 
I have a fancy to make one - just maybe not the "passion".
I just assembled a pair of Sturmey Archer bicycle alternators into this one - pictures below: The magnets rotate around the core stator. Suits a bicycle, but the parts are old reclaimed scrap and the rust has attacked the poles a bit. I still need to decide how to power it? - 6V. 12W output at >300rpm. Electronically stabilised. Will easily power the LED "lamp" I assembled. 












K2


----------



## Steamchick

Manfred, you could do worse than get an old (scrap?) Motorcycle generator - The rotor use in the 1960s British motorcycles was 6 pole permanent magnet: and stator 6 pole (coil). This gave effectively 3 phases. Originally, the wiring gave one pair of coils for low output (daytime) and all coils for high output (6V.0 10A) for Night-time lighting. Later wired so the alternator gave single phase 12V 10A. and even later 3 phase 12V 15A. But around 3000rpm for full output. 
Japanese and other European manufacturers made similar designs, but all have the principle of the magnetised rotor and outer coils. These may give you parts you can incorporate into your own scheme. - Maybe a 3 phase excited rotor design - more like the common car alternator? - as used on 1970s Motorcycles and beyond.
Also, there are various designs of household appliance motors that can be converted to generators by changing the rotor...
Enjoy!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

manfred albert said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> this job is finished. See You again with the next project.
> 
> Best regards
> Manfred
> 
> View attachment 56789


Well done on a beautiful model!
K2.


----------

