# Know where your fingers are---



## Brian Rupnow (Feb 29, 2020)

I recently gave my 40 year old son a skill saw that I had inherited from my dad. I have my own skillsaw and didn't need two of them. The advice I gave him was to "Know where your fingers are every time you turn this saw on".  This is indeed a creed to live by. I'm 73 years old, and amazingly I have all 10 digits. One finger on my right hand was cut off with a trimming axe when I was six years old, but thru the magic of medical knowledge gained in world war two, sulfa drugs, and a very forward thinking village doctor, the finger was reattached, and full mobility of it was restored. The last joint closest to the end of my finger doesn't bend quite as well as its counterpart on the other hand, but I have full feeling in the finger and after 67 years I never really think of it. When I was a teenager, we were poorer than dirt and lived down an unpaved sideroad. A family with at least half a dozen boys lived in the road about a mile from where we lived. One Sunday morning the oldest son walked out to our place and asked my dad if his dad could borrow dads skillsaw. Dad gave it to him with the express warning to "Watch where your fingers are." About 2:00 that afternoon, the same boy walked back out to our place with the skillsaw in one hand, and two fingers wrapped in a cloth in the other hand, and wanted to know if dad could drive him up town to see the doctor. They couldn't reattach the fingers, too much time had gone by. Think about this story every time you flip on a lathe, a mill, a grinder, or any of the other power tools we all own. Know where your fingers are first!!!


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## dnalot (Feb 29, 2020)

In my early 20s I needed some boards for a shelf in my apartment. I went to a lumber yard and selected my boards but they needed to be cut to length. I was sent out back to see Earl. Now Earl was an old geezer like I am today. On one hand he had a thumb and part of a fore finger. The other no fingers and what looked like a toe for a thumb. It was ghastly looking and I'm thinking this is the guy they hired to cut boards??  Well that image has keep me thinking safety safety safety my entire life.  And yet I still managed to run over my own cord a time or two with a skill saw. 

Mark T


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## tornitore45 (Feb 29, 2020)

Thanks for a reminder, is so easy to become complacent.


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## dethrow55 (Mar 14, 2020)

wow reminds me of this kid we had on our crew we were doning a rebuild of burned out home and his dad gave him a 10" framing saw. we were reframing the roof he just got done cutting a raffer and layed the saw on his lap wow you talk a bout fast almost cut his leg off. the kid jammed the guard open big mistake. im 65 been in remodeling and construction for about 40 yrs still have all 10 fingers. saftey first take nothing for granted, if unsure ask some one thats been there. just my two cents, god bless all


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## ALEX1952 (Mar 15, 2020)

I was told that if using a power tool and for whatever reason you drop it DO NOT try and catch it. I think that the catches that hold the trigger down on a power tool are a terrible idea apart from when a tool is bench mounted, why should the switch be held in? To me electric planes are an accident waiting to happen as by there very nature you cant see the business end which is very close to the edge of the machine, wayward finger can easily touch the blades especially if the idiot using it is holding the job, no need to ask how I know but it was just a cut and a fright. The thing that frequently shows in pictures are rings being worn we were taught never to  wear jewelry including neck chains as they easily get caught. I know most of us are old b****rs and can't remove them but you can tape the up. Long hair can also be dangerous tie it back or wear a hat. I could go on but please just alaways be aware.


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## Ken I (Mar 22, 2020)

My old man taught me to treat any machine as a malevolent creature that will not hesitate to cut off surplus parts of your anatomy if you are unwary - and feel absolutely no remorse.
Living by that creed I've made 68 without losing any digits or serious mishap - but even then I've had more close calls and absolutely stupid mishaps than I'd care to elaborate on.
As regards Alex1952's comment about not trying to catch anything - I was once watching one of my fitters and his apprentice swap out a 5HP motor on a machine - the old unit broke out unexpectedly and fell.
The fitter took a step backwards (as I did) and made no attempt to catch the motor. The inexperienced apprentice tried to catch the motor - which quite ungraciously pinched one of his fingers clean off against a perfectly blunt edge.
Recently one of my young engineers knocked a cooldrink bottle off the machine we were working on - again I stepped back - he went after it but unfortunately caught up with it after it hit the floor and shattered - and ended up impaling his hand on the shards - I spent the rest of the afternoon getting him fixed up.
Don't try and catch things - they bounce or they break - don't sweat it - back up - keep your eyes on it - but don't mess with gravity - you'll lose.


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## Cogsy (Mar 23, 2020)

I once did a job for an 84 year-old man that had been a carpenter for his entire working life and retired with all his fingers. During retirement he decided to build his dream home and did as much of the work himself that he could. When he was making the window frames he managed to cut off 1-1/2 fingers on his right hand with his thicknesser-planer (which could not be reattached as they were basically shredded). A long recovery followed and eventually he was able to get back into the project. Before he finished the window frames he had another mishap with the same thicknesser-planer and took off two more fingers on his right hand. he eventually paid someone to finish the window frames for him and I believe had some surgeries to utilise some toe material to give him partial use of his right hand back. 

So just because we've done something the same way for years without issue doesn't mean it's not going to bite us one day.


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## kiwi2 (Mar 23, 2020)

Years ago I had a neighbour who lost a finger in exactly the way Cogsy described. He was over 60 and helping his daughter and son-in-law finish their house. He was used to using a hand planer and would curl his fingers around the plane to rest on the sole to act as a guide. Not a good idea when using a power planer. I suspect this type of accident is much more common amongst old guys when their muscle memories take over from thinking about what they are doing.
Regards,
Alan


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Mar 23, 2020)

Oh boy, many a true word. Many years ago I was setting up a Herbert 2D capstan lathe where I worked as a tool maker / machine setter and general dogs body for an old boy who lost his legs through a smoking related desease . The material I was setting the machine up with was 3/4" hex bar held in a collet chuck. Having set up the tooling I opened the collet chuck without shutting the lathe down. The rest of the stock was in a bar feed on the back of the head stock. The piece of scrap hex bar came through and stayed where it was so I knocked the scrap out of the way with my right hand. The main length of material came through the head stock and trapped my hand in between the collet chuck and the tail stock / capstan. I couldn't get to the switch to turn the machine off and screamed to the other guys in the shop to help.
 Luckily, the centre drill went between my fingers and the large burr on the end of the hex bar only gouged a large crater on the soft part of my hand and I managed to turn the new 5 gallons of sudds from white to a very fetching pink.
Ever since I have always taken my time and NEVER get my very valuable hands any where near to moving equipment and don't try to catch anything that I may drop. The guy who said that the noise made by a £5.00 vernier and a £50.00 hitting the floor is the same.


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## Peter Twissell (Mar 23, 2020)

The foreman at my first engineering job simply told me this:
Don't put your fingers anywhere you wouldn't put your (insert favourite euphamism for penis).


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## comstock-friend (Mar 23, 2020)

The JC machine shop was given a calendar by one of the machine tool builders. Twelve months of great shots of old line shaft machine shops and their operator/machinists. You start looking around and there were not many of the guys that had a full compliment of fingers!


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## davidyat (Mar 23, 2020)

Absolutely a great post. My story, didn't wait til a fly cutter was stopped and I thought there was clearance to grab the part. NOT. The fly cutter nicked the top of my right hand trigger knuckle and my first thought was, "Do I still have a finger"? Yes. Great lesson. Now I absolutely wait til all moving parts have stopped before I stick my hand near anything. And like above, if something drops, I freeze and wait til it hits and stops. Bottom line, you can ALWAYS replace a part better than you can replace a severed digit. These posts are great reminders of what NOT to do.
Grasshopper


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## Peter Twissell (Mar 23, 2020)

"Freezing" when a part drops also allows you to watch it bounce away and hide under the least movable item in the shop.


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## davidyat (Mar 23, 2020)

Or in the most inaccessible place in your shop!


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## awake (Mar 23, 2020)

When I was first setting up a home machine shop, my first purchase was my venerable 12.5" x 30" Cincinnati TrayTop lathe. "Only" 1800 lbs, child's play to the experienced machinist who helped me assess it and then move it. It needed a good bit of work, both cleaning and repairing, so at first it stayed on the rather dubious wheeled supports that it was on when I bought it. By this point, my machinist friend had showed me how easy it was to jack up an end with a plain old bottle jack in order to put cribbing under it.

I failed to consider two things: first was that what he showed me involved very small vertical movements at a time, followed by the cribbing, before another incremental movement. Second was that, when he was helping me move it around, we had removed the motor, which hangs out off the back.

So when I was moving the lathe into final position, I attempted to jack it up enough to remove the wheeled base all at once. No problem on the tailstock end, so my confidence was high as I started on the headstock end. Only to see the lathe begin to tilt backward as it was a bit unbalanced on the bottle jack. As I was starting to scramble to get away -- I was not well-positioned for a quick exit, which was a point of learning of its own! -- it came to rest, with the knob that adjusts the taper fixture punching through the drywall, but coming to rest on the outside wall. After I recovered from sheer terror, I thought very, very carefully about whether I could safely redeem the situation. I decided to give it a try, and carefully pulled - and the lathe tilted back upright as easy as pie. I got very, very lucky - it was right at the point of balance. Any further, and it would have been a goner, and/or I might have been caught in the fall.


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## ALEX1952 (Mar 23, 2020)

Another thing to watch out for are fluorescent lights because they flicker and can act like a strobe mainly on grinders or other fast moving tooling. I worked for the Lucas group which had large groups of grinders from small to huge and I believe it had sodium lights, it's surprising what comes back to you from your past, mostly good some bad and a lot of lessons that certainly I take for granted and do automatically, just shows I had good instructors but probably didn't realize that at the time.


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## skyline1 (Mar 24, 2020)

It's not just rotating machines that can amputate digits 

As a humble apprentice many years ago we had a welder using a big welding set (600 Amps or more IIRC) amputate his finger by accidentally striking up on his wedding ring.

The gold ring simply vaporised under the immense current and blew his ring finger clean off. He was wearing gloves but as was typical of those days they were full of holes and he couldn't be bothered (Or didn't have time) to replace them.

I didn't actually see the accident myself but I heard the commotion and saw the damage some months later when he finally returned to work. Very nasty.


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## marvin hedberg (Mar 24, 2020)

over the years my feet have become "educated" to catch a small delicate part and get out of the way of a larger heavy piece. also never try to catch a part with your foot flat on the floor, it hurts less with movement available


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## comstock-friend (Mar 24, 2020)

We had a project in the shop that used 1-1/4" pipe that loosely telescoped over a 1" pipe axle. The boss was too cheap to buy seamless pipe so the pipe we used had a weld seam on the id. Our machinist soon grew tired of clamping hundreds of these parts in the vise and running a reamer through them. He offset the head of the vertical mill to the side, set up his large basket of parts, grabbed a glove and holding the part in his gloved hand, would run the part up the spinning reamer. Worked great until a bit of glove worked its way into the hole with the reamer, which took off his index finger, then spun his hand around to have the reamer eat up the back side of his hand. I was close by and started treating for shock while someone else dialed 911. The finger was hanging by a bit of flesh and the paramedics were there in 5 or 6 minutes. They yelled at me for not pulling the finger completely off and putting it in the freezer, saying that prevented them from being able to save the finger. Well, old Bob couldn't point at you after that!


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## Peter Twissell (Mar 24, 2020)

Drifting off topic somewhat, but am amusing story..
I was dismantling an specified vw engine. The engine was on the floor in the front part of workshop (garage area) which has a doorway into the rear part. As I removed each part, I carried it through to the rear part of the shop, where it was laid on the bench in sequence with other parts.
I was very careful to remove circlips from the pistons without dropping them into the cases.
As I laid them on the bench, I turned and my sleeve caught one.
I watched as it bounced on the floor, through the doorway, bounced on the floor again and with pinpoint accuracy disappeared into the crankcase!
Time to go away and make a cuppa.


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## Rickus (Mar 25, 2020)

While I was active duty we were told, never ever try to catch something you or someone else drop.  Let it hit the floor and come to a rest.  You never know what may happen when you move quickly in a surprise and get your hand caught in a piece of equipment or knock your head on the corner of a bench.  A habitual response is not easy to train yourself out of and I did see one person using a battery drill place it on the workbench where it was unstable.  When it fell off he reacted by trying to catch it which he did.  Unfortunately the drill landed in his hand bit down.  3/8" drill bit poking out the backside.


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## Brian Hutchings (Mar 25, 2020)

My personal moment that still brings me out in a sweat happened 50 years ago. I was working at a place that made parts for Rolls Royce Aero but it had started life by making kitchen cabinets, stainless sinks (which is how they got into R-R work (they made the exhausts for R-R Merlin engines)) and pressed steel radiators, which were made in 2 halves and seam welded together.
I needed to cut a small piece of stainless sheet (for myself) and so at lunchtime I used the power guillotine near my workplace. I pushed the small piece of sheet under the trapper bar and pressed the footpedal. The trapper bar came down and brushed the top of my fingers and then retracted. Fortunately for me it had been set to trap radiator pressings at about an inch thick and so I escaped with all fingers intact!!
Brian


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## oldCB (Mar 26, 2020)

Several years ago I was working on a 172 nose gear. I was going to rebuild the strut but it would not come apart due to dissimilar corrosion. I anchored the bottom on part of the hangar structure and attached a winch to the other end also attached to the structure. I put some pulling pressure on it, applied Mouse milk and went about doing other stuff. Throughout the day I applied a heat gun and more milk. I gradually increased the pulling force till she sounded like a banjo! I left and came back 3-4 days later (it was my birthday) to look at another of the 3 planes in the hangar..........as I was walking bye, it broke free........like a bomb going off!! It scared the crap out of me and could of killed me. I guess the Lord was looking out for me that day!! Be careful out there boys!*





* got another one about the same plane.....save that for later!!       Be safe with the Covid-19 too!!


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## Bentwings (Jul 6, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> I recently gave my 40 year old son a skill saw that I had inherited from my dad. I have my own skillsaw and didn't need two of them. The advice I gave him was to "Know where your fingers are every time you turn this saw on".  This is indeed a creed to live by. I'm 73 years old, and amazingly I have all 10 digits. One finger on my right hand was cut off with a trimming axe when I was six years old, but thru the magic of medical knowledge gained in world war two, sulfa drugs, and a very forward thinking village doctor, the finger was reattached, and full mobility of it was restored. The last joint closest to the end of my finger doesn't bend quite as well as its counterpart on the other hand, but I have full feeling in the finger and after 67 years I never really think of it. When I was a teenager, we were poorer than dirt and lived down an unpaved sideroad. A family with at least half a dozen boys lived in the road about a mile from where we lived. One Sunday morning the oldest son walked out to our place and asked my dad if his dad could borrow dads skillsaw. Dad gave it to him with the express warning to "Watch where your fingers are." About 2:00 that afternoon, the same boy walked back out to our place with the skillsaw in one hand, and two fingers wrapped in a cloth in the other hand, and wanted to know if dad could drive him up town to see the doctor. They couldn't reattach the fingers, too much time had gone by. Think about this story every time you flip on a lathe, a mill, a grinder, or any of the other power tools we all own. Know where your fingers are first!!!


Yeah I hear you all fingers and toes still attached at 78 yrs. brain has deteriorated so seeing them and moving them is harder.

another thing is know where your chuck keys are. I once saw a36” lathe toss a chuck key into the concrete block walls another is don’t touch rotating objects. I worked in a large machine and welding shop for a while after I retired. There were weekly saftesaftysaftey meetings. But it seemed like someone had to go to the ER at least once a week .


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## Richard Hed (Jul 7, 2020)

Bentwings said:


> Yeah I hear you all fingers and toes still attached at 78 yrs. brain has deteriorated so seeing them and moving them is harder.
> 
> another thing is know where your chuck keys are. I once saw a36” lathe toss a chuck key into the concrete block walls another is don’t touch rotating objects. I worked in a large machine and welding shop for a while after I retired. There were weekly saftesaftysaftey meetings. But it seemed like someone had to go to the ER at least once a week .


I learned this:  when someone asks how deep the sawblade should be adjusted, the repl;y is "how many fingers do you want to have left when you are done?"


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## L98fiero (Jul 8, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> I learned this:  when someone asks how deep the sawblade should be adjusted, the repl;y is "how many fingers do you want to have left when you are done?"


Along the lines of stupid stuff that happens, I was 3 machines down from a machinist that had 3 feet of 2½" diameter brass sticking out the outboard end of the spindle, unsupported, he started the machine at about 350 rpm, it made about three revolutions and bent at 90° lifting a 36" lathe off the ground before it was stopped.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 8, 2020)

L98fiero said:


> Along the lines of stupid stuff that happens, I was 3 machines down from a machinist that had 3 feet of 2½" diameter brass sticking out the outboard end of the spindle, unsupported, he started the machine at about 350 rpm, it made about three revolutions and bent at 90° lifting a 36" lathe off the ground before it was stopped.


Whoa!  Just reminds me that "fool"  rhymes with "cool".


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## peterl95124 (Jul 9, 2020)

I've been a hobby machinist for nearly 30 years now and still have all my fingers, but...,  one time I was wiping down my mill, power was off and everything was still, but I left a cutter in the spindle, and it sliced my wrist open as I pulled the rag over the vise. Ouch (except that the cutter was so sharp I didn't feel much, just bled a lot !). Funny thing was at the ER where they put me into a room and then ignored me for a hour or so, I'm thinking they either had me on suicide watch or were waiting to see if the police had any bulletins out for knife fight victims, but I did get to explain it when the doctor that finally stitched me up  asked if this was "work related".


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

peterl95124 said:


> I've been a hobby machinist for nearly 30 years now and still have all my fingers, but...,  one time I was wiping down my mill, power was off and everything was still, but I left a cutter in the spindle, and it sliced my wrist open as I pulled the rag over the vise. Ouch (except that the cutter was so sharp I didn't feel much, just bled a lot !). Funny thing was at the ER where they put me into a room and then ignored me for a hour or so, I'm thinking they either had me on suicide watch or were waiting to see if the police had any bulletins out for knife fight victims, but I did get to explain it when the doctor that finally stitched me up  asked if this was "work related".


Those kinds of things are very likely to happen.  I cut a great piece of my thumb just by touching an edge of a cut I had just made.  I'm too embarassed to tell about some of my other cuts.


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## Master (Jul 10, 2020)

Air pressure.  Had to replace a cylinder on a R-2800 radial engine.  New cylinder came  with piston.  The protective rust prohibitive coating had the piston firm in the cylinder.  We soaked the cylinder for several hours in solvent. No luck.  Put a spark plug in one hole and an air hose pigtail in the other. Then applied air pressure.  35 psi.  No luck.  Got a cup of coffee and suddenly an explosion.  Piston went across hangar, tore a chunk of wood out of a C-135 chock and went another 25 feet.  Fortunately there is a Patron Saint for dumb sailors.


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## Ken I (Jul 10, 2020)

Something similar - we couldn't get a pair of racing slicks to bead onto the rim - eventually we decided on more pressure.
With safety in mind we moved the wheel into the yard and applied pressure from inside the shop - eventually reaching the maximum of 7 Bar on the compressor and still the bead wouldn't jump the rim. (deflate / apply lashings of lubricant / try again / repeat)
In desperation we bypassed the compressor shut off and figured we would run it to the safety valve pressure of 12 Bar (nearly 180 psi) - it was either going to go on or blow up.
We were just over 10 Bar when there was a helluva bang and the hose jerked and started snaking around blowing air out.
We figured the tyre had blown and three of us rushed out to have a look - expecting to see bits of tyre etc. we looked about the yard - nothing.
Then the rim and tyre assembly fell out of the sky and landed between us and bounced back into the air.
We were lucky not to have been struck - the tyre survived the abuse.
Strangely enough the remaining tyre went on will a lot less pressure although still troublesome.
There's always some aspect of doing something dumb that will bite you in the ass.
Regards - Ken I


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## BaronJ (Jul 10, 2020)

peterl95124 said:


> I've been a hobby machinist for nearly 30 years now and still have all my fingers, but...,  one time I was wiping down my mill, power was off and everything was still, but I left a cutter in the spindle, and it sliced my wrist open as I pulled the rag over the vise. Ouch (except that the cutter was so sharp I didn't feel much, just bled a lot !). Funny thing was at the ER where they put me into a room and then ignored me for a hour or so, I'm thinking they either had me on suicide watch or were waiting to see if the police had any bulletins out for knife fight victims, but I did get to explain it when the doctor that finally stitched me up  asked if this was "work related".



Many years ago, I'd be about 16 or 17 at the time and I sliced the top of my first finger on the left hand between the nail and the second knuckle.  The skin just folded off.  So just flipping it back over and wrapping it a rag, with blood running all over I walked the five or six hundred yards to the local A&E.

The nurse got me into a cubical, unwrapped my finger and then proceeded to lift the top off the wound off folding it back.  I passed out at that point.  When I started to come round, I was laid on my back on the floor and this nurse was stood over me smacking my face and saying come on wake up.

I did to the most horrible sight I had ever seen.  I was treated to the view of white passion killers and knobbly knees.  The doctor injected my hand with anesthetic and stitched the wound.  Removing the stitches later hurt more than the original cut did.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 10, 2020)

I was building a Mirror dinghy one cold November. OK the plywood and woodwork were cut out-- etc etc.

But I wanted TWO. One for here in the UK and one for  use in my little villa in Menorca in the Baleares, Spain. I'been given Honduras Mahogany ex bank counter, I had a good sawbench and- a Myford PR11 planer/thicknesser. So what was stopping me?
So with my wife and the young kids( then) at a Newcastle Museum, I got started.  I think that I was planing the flat nosed prow and  'cocked it up' with my left palm being planed.
So I was technically alone. Dripping with blood and shavings , I found a white dress shirt, wrote a message in blood-- RVI- Royal Victoria Infirmary, got into my little car and 'changed gear with two fingers'.
Happily, my wife had nerves of steel- she was a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons and took it all calmly. Even more happily, the surgeon on duty was simply waiting for rugby players- with skin kicked off in the Saturday match- and ws going in a day or so to East Grinstead where the Late Archie McIndo had patched up wounded airmen in the war.  
How good was I at having the procedure being done- without anaesthetic? Ouch- planed a strip of skin from my left forearm- put it on my palm and bound it up.  
I was put to bed, with my left hand suspended on a frame above me- and I fell out of bed- with my arm like a hangman's rope.
I used to ski  but using a ski pole was a definite out. So I could ski- as some call it 'Rouade' or Bloody Rotation to turn  without sticks.
I gave up sailing seriously and white water kayak-ing in case the graft was damaged.
Feeling and mobility? Fine but I never could face eating minced steak for years.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

Alledgedly, there was a king in India, probably a city-state king, who had a son and never wanted the child to experience pain, so he ordered that the child was never to fall or get hurt thus he was never let out of the palace.  so the child eventually grew up and turned 18 whence he was allowed to leave the palace.  He immediately set out the doors and went into the street in wonder and was promptly run over by a carraige and kilt!  Sounds like a story, eh?  Well, Nobel prize winner Pierre Curie did almost exactly that.  He was walking in Paris, I thimk, not paying attention, stept off the sidewalk and was run over by a carraige!  1906, head crusht.

So my story has a point, what do we do with our children and our children's children when they are obviously being trained that there is NO HARM in the world, everything is covered, protected, nothing is left for any danger?!  A century ago, industry could care less how many fingers you got cut off, it was "Get your damned fingers out of here!  What?  I don't care about your wife and children, get gone!  And take your fingers, we don't want maggots around."  So eventually dangerous, open parts were rightfully covered.  But if peeps are not allowed to get hurt (a little, not like their heads chopt off), they will grow up mentally/kinesthetically stunted.  This is the trend in education.  Has anyone read John Taylor Gatto?


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## Ken I (Jul 10, 2020)

Richard, you have a point.
Whilst I would not point to unusual events as altruism's - I have seen dangerous machinery that ran for decades without incident - but once they were "made safe" and suitably guarded accidents happened. 
Whilst I don't want to go back to the "good old days" I think the dynamic at work here is that everyone knew the machinery was dangerous and gave it a wide berth. Operating staff were well aware of the dangers and were careful.

So we "idiot proofed" the machinery an then put idiots in to use them. Lulled into a false sense of security that they couldn't possibly hurt themselves, promptly went about finding ways that they could. I can trot off a string of examples.

Simple guarding is never enough it has to be built to withstand a weapons grade idiot.

"“Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it.” – Stephen Vizinczey

Regards - Ken I


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## mfrick (Jul 10, 2020)

Well I have a good lesson  for all. While serving my apprentice back in the 60's I observed one of the machinist running a horizontal mill with a large slitting saw reach between the overarm and mandrel to adjust the coolant hose, the cutter caught his coverall sleeve pulling his arm in running his wrist through the cutter leaving his hand hanging by the skin on the back of his wrist, his hand was reattached but was not very usable after the gentleman took early retirement and disability, to this day I'm very aware of what I wear in the shop.

Mike


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

Ken I said:


> Richard, you have a point.
> Whilst I would not point to unusual events as altruism's - I have seen dangerous machinery that ran for decades without incident - but once they were "made safe" and suitably guarded accidents happened.
> Whilst I don't want to go back to the "good old days" I think the dynamic at work here is that everyone knew the machinery was dangerous and gave it a wide berth. Operating staff were well aware of the dangers and were careful.
> 
> ...


You put it so much better than I could and in fewer words and concisely.  Thanx.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

mfrick said:


> Well I have a good lesson  for all. While serving my apprentice back in the 60's I observed one of the machinist running a horizontal mill with a large slitting saw reach between the overarm and mandrel to adjust the coolant hose, the cutter caught his coverall sleeve pulling his arm in running his wrist through the cutter leaving his hand hanging by the skin on the back of his wrist, his hand was reattached but was not very usable after the gentleman took early retirement and disability, to this day I'm very aware of what I wear in the shop.
> 
> Mike


I even refuse to wear a ring after finding out about a truck driver who wore one.  One day he was getting off his truck, which you understand is a very large transportation machine, and he caught the ring on something just as he was jumping the last step--.  Needless to sey, it ripped his finger off.  My daughter once had a solid brass neck wire.  I told her to neveer wear stuff like that as it could be used to strangle her or even by accident get caught on something..  She took the advice.  (A rare thing for children to do!  But when you realize your LIFE is at stake?)

As for long sleeved cov eralls, we were taught "short sleeves, no jewelry".


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## Master (Jul 10, 2020)

Cutting a board on a table saw.   Had a safety feature with pawls that prevented  wood going backwards.  Needed the board just a bit narrower. Part being cut off about 1/2 wide three feet long.  Off cut was too narrow for pawl and shot back like an arrow.  I happened to be off to the side.  The (arrow) penetrated a fire proof garage door about two inches in.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

Master said:


> Cutting a board on a table saw.   Had a safety feature with pawls that prevented  wood going backwards.  Needed the board just a bit narrower. Part being cut off about 1/2 wide three feet long.  Off cut was too narrow for pawl and shot back like an arrow.  I happened to be off to the side.  The (arrow) penetrated a fire proof garage door about two inches in.


Yikes!  Is that the Soviet of Washington?  I live in Moses Lake


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## Master (Jul 10, 2020)

No, it's the drop off point of the world.  Called Port Townsend.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

Master said:


> No, it's the drop off point of the world.  Called Port Townsend.


We have a buddy in Belfair.  That's not too far for you is it?  Maybe have to take a ferry to make it short.  The Soviet has the largest ferry system in the States.  did u know?


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## Master (Jul 10, 2020)

30 minute ferry ride is now $40 round trip.  Canada is free.  Belfair is within driving distance.  No ferry.  Is your friend a machinist?


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## Richard Hed (Jul 10, 2020)

Master said:


> 30 minute ferry ride is now $40 round trip.  Canada is free.  Belfair is within driving distance.  No ferry.  Is your friend a machinist?


He is on this forum.  He would like to meet but I live so far away that I only get out that way maybe once a year.  I have relatives in the Puyallup, Yelm, Tacoma area and friends all over the left coast but That doesn't mean I get to see them very often.  If I managed to stay over night in the area I could visit.  Let me have some time and I will find his name.  He is a regular here.


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## Bentwings (Aug 2, 2020)

Machines are not the only means of human brutllaity......human to human contact is pretty dangerous too. I played hockey until, I was 26, one night with my wife to be sitting at the blue line....no glass back then, I got high sticked by some scrawny wingman right in front of her .i went down bleeding badly . I was helped off the ice by my defense partner The coach was one who grabbed you by the jersey for attention. He said you go get stitched up and be back for the third period. So I took a spare jersey over my eye and wife to be and I went to the ER it took 14 stitches to replace my eyebrow back in position. We drove back to the arena where the coach grabbed me and the other defense man by the jerseys. He said get out there and I want that kid off the ice , I don’t care if you both get ejected. Both of us were well over 200 pounds probably 50 pounds heavier each than the kid. Well he got his fdue in a corner and we got ejected for fighting and unnecessary roughness.  We still won the game but I got married with a bright black eye.


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## Dougp (Sep 17, 2021)

This is an old thread but last month I had a piece of the casting fail on my 18 year old sliding compound mitre saw. The saw basically exploded and shot to the extent of its travel. I did a quick digit count and changed my underwear, then sat there stunned as to how lucky I was. I loved that saw it was built like a tank but I love having 10 fingers more and will be very careful with other old tools I own from now on.
I told this story to a friend who said in their shop the drop saw came off its mount and ran across the room, so glad mine stopped at the end of its travel or I would be sitting down to pee.


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## Bentwings (Sep 17, 2021)

Dougp said:


> This is an old thread but last month I had a piece of the casting fail on my 18 year old sliding compound mitre saw. The saw basically exploded and shot to the extent of its travel. I did a quick digit count and changed my underwear, then sat there stunned as to how lucky I was. I loved that saw it was built like a tank but I love having 10 fingers more and will be very careful with other old tools I own from now on.
> I told this story to a friend who said in their shop the drop saw came off its mount and ran across the room, so glad mine stopped at the end of its travel or I would be sitting down to pee.


I too had a near disaster when the blade attaching bolt sheared off the carbide tooth blade apparently dropped off hooking the aluminum guard then sliced threw it striking the aluminumwork piece I had clamped on the table. It must have dug in as there was a large slit where it hit. Then I tore completely through the guard just missing my shoulder . There were chips flying all over but my wraparound safety glasses saved the day the still spinning blade bounced on the concrete floor then stuck in the paint cabinet door. It was a 16 inch steel blade so very high energy. It split the guard like it had been purposely split in half. The noise shock and speed it all happened was unbelievable.. we got a new blade and guard that we mounted. A steel band to prevent a blade from cutting through but it has made the guard assembly much heavier and the operation is more difficult . I’ll trade a little productivity for knowing I don’t think it will happen again. I realy didn’t think the blade could cut the guard like that but the machine cuts 4x 4 1/4 wall aluminum tube like butter . Even the blade on its trip across the floor would have done serious injury. I doubt you could have gotten out of the way.  I’ve always been very careful around rotating machines even autos but this one caught me by surprise there was no warning juts boom and things came apart.


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## Steamchick (Sep 18, 2021)

Reminds me of a couple of incidents.... my friend planed the top 1/4" off his thumb.... using the power plane to shorten a piece of wood holding the wood with his thumb braced behind where he was planing.....
Another guy I worked with used a power saw to cut branches off a tree, including the branch he was leaning on.... One broken arm later, from a 10 ft fall, he had to tell the tale in work the next week.
Another guy used a power saw to chop the top 15 ft off a row of 30 ft conifers.... On the last one, he reached down to trim a branch near his crotch..... slipped, and cut a groove in his thigh... exposing the artery. He only lost a half-pint of blood while his wife drove him to hospital, not all of it through a cut artery. LUCKY?
Hand held tools are the worst risk, but even the humble pairing knife can severe a major blood vessel is not used with care.
Always count your fingers at the start and end of a shift. You have a problem if the numbers don't match!
Take care and enjoy your hobbies.
K2


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## aarggh (Sep 18, 2021)

As someone who in their very early days built a table saw using an upside down circular saw held somewhat precariously upside down under a table, and didn't see the need for a safety fence. I soon learnt the hard way to be wary of sharp spinning things when I slipped running timber through and my thumb and two fingers hit the blade, didn't lose a digit but have nice big scar line across the three digits!

Now when I see home built saws for sale on the forums I really cringe, while there's nothing wrong with home built stuff if used by a suitable cautious/competent person, but I worry a person unfamiliar to them will buy it and then inevitably lose a finger or worse using stuff that should never really be sold as it's just so dangerous.


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## KellisRJ (Sep 18, 2021)

Not just fingers:


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## Tug40 (Sep 18, 2021)




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## Jonken44 (Sep 19, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Reminds me of a couple of incidents.... my friend planed the top 1/4" off his thumb.... using the power plane to shorten a piece of wood holding the wood with his thumb braced behind where he was planing.....
> Another guy I worked with used a power saw to cut branches off a tree, including the branch he was leaning on.... One broken arm later, from a 10 ft fall, he had to tell the tale in work the next week.
> Another guy used a power saw to chop the top 15 ft off a row of 30 ft conifers.... On the last one, he reached down to trim a branch near his crotch..... slipped, and cut a groove in his thigh... exposing the artery. He only lost a half-pint of blood while his wife drove him to hospital, not all of it through a cut artery. LUCKY?
> Hand held tools are the worst risk, but even the humble pairing knife can severe a major blood vessel is not used with care.
> ...


Are you mixing in the right circles , think safety first , don't rely on safety comes experience. Expensive lessons.


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## L98fiero (Sep 19, 2021)

Jonken44 said:


> Are you mixing in the right circles , think safety first , don't rely on safety comes experience. Expensive lessons.


A friend just told me a machine 'bit' him and broke his finger, I reminded him that machines are patient, they will wait until you do something stupid or just careless and then they show no mercy. Be safe!


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## Courierdog (Sep 19, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> I recently gave my 40 year old son a skill saw that I had inherited from my dad. I have my own skillsaw and didn't need two of them. The advice I gave him was to "Know where your fingers are every time you turn this saw on".  This is indeed a creed to live by. I'm 73 years old, and amazingly I have all 10 digits. One finger on my right hand was cut off with a trimming axe when I was six years old, but thru the magic of medical knowledge gained in world war two, sulfa drugs, and a very forward thinking village doctor, the finger was reattached, and full mobility of it was restored. The last joint closest to the end of my finger doesn't bend quite as well as its counterpart on the other hand, but I have full feeling in the finger and after 67 years I never really think of it. When I was a teenager, we were poorer than dirt and lived down an unpaved sideroad. A family with at least half a dozen boys lived in the road about a mile from where we lived. One Sunday morning the oldest son walked out to our place and asked my dad if his dad could borrow dads skillsaw. Dad gave it to him with the express warning to "Watch where your fingers are." About 2:00 that afternoon, the same boy walked back out to our place with the skillsaw in one hand, and two fingers wrapped in a cloth in the other hand, and wanted to know if dad could drive him up town to see the doctor. They couldn't reattach the fingers, too much time had gone by. Think about this story every time you flip on a lathe, a mill, a grinder, or any of the other power tools we all own. Know where your fingers are first!!!


Excellent Advice, regardless to tool in use, Visible Fingers have to counted, before turning on the device.


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## Courierdog (Sep 19, 2021)

Plus it seems everyone is forgetting the Elephant in the same room, POWER,  Treat Every Wire as if it has multiple Kvolts and Mamps, It can ruin your day with a simple brush even with some fabric between you and the wire or ungrounded item. Drop a screwdriver onto a powered source and you will be lucky if you are able to see the flash. In a Machine shop we tend to forget today everything is powered by Electricity.


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## skyline1 (Sep 19, 2021)

Courierdog said:


> Plus it seems everyone is forgetting the Elephant in the same room, POWER, Treat Every Wire as if it has multiple Kvolts and Mamps



Sound advice, As an apprentice, we were taught to treat every circuit as live until we had actually measured it (with a known good meter). On a big dis board it is all too easy to pull the wrong breaker or fuse and isolate the wrong circuit.

Best Regards Mark


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## Courierdog (Sep 19, 2021)

One of my many experiences was working on Broadcasting Transmitters, some times it involved working inside a room that was actually part of the transmitter.
Everything is live, as you are there to maintain it. Or You  turn every thing off and then verify everything is dead by using a 4 foot long rod with a grounding strap on the far end, to touch each and every potential source of High Voltage.
This can be scary as even after 30 minutes some of the Capacitor are still full of stored energy.
The really difficult part is working on the live transmitter either aligning or worse fault tracing. I once dropped a screw driver, I saw the flash and ti was over, gone. A friend was working with me once and was showing off with a fluorescent tube near the Final Out Put. Yes it would light up. What he forgot was now, how do you extinguish the bulb that is now filled with a very High Voltage charge. What he should have done it touch the far end of the Fluorescent tube to a Ground source. Instead he climbed down the ladder before I could tell him not to and stepped off the wooden ladder on to the floor.
You guessed it, He passed out the moment his foot touched the floor.
The only thing that saved him was he dropped the Fluorescent tube which broke into a million pieces with a silent yet brilliant flash. as the current attempted to pass through him. had he not lost his footing and dropped the Fluorescent tube, most likely he would have died on the spot. As it was he was extremely white in colour for about a week while the effects wore off. Not something you want to see. My next Job was to fabricate an insulating cover to keep people from repeating his mistake. The Original designers thought no body would go anywhere near the open 100 KW Antenna Contact on top of the Cabinet 8 feet above ground. There is always someone


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## stevehuckss396 (Sep 20, 2021)

I think about it every time I turn on the saw. I handed my son (27 YO) A craftsman worm gear saw a few years ago. Extremely powerful saw. He started cutting a sheet of plywood and the saw bound up and jumped right at him. It grabbed his shirt and spun it up in the blade. Had he not let go of the trigger asap he would have chopped up himself along the abs something awful. I had a long chat before I handed it to him about stiff arming the saw while in use and never bending the elbow. Well he believes me now and always keeps his eye on the ball when using that saw.

Just for reference I believe it was a combination of wet wood and a semi dull blade cutting too fast. Blade worked great on dry wood. I put a brand new blade in and slowed down on the cut and it worked fine. Lesson learned.


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## Steamchick (Sep 20, 2021)

Another shocking tale.... A guy took his jacket off at work and hung it on a wire coat hanger on the adjacent orange electrical cabinet.... at the end of the shift, he got a big belt from the electrics he contacted as he took his coat off the hanger... the hook was poked into a louvre with live electrics close inside the cabinet. He was given a statuary warning before his case was explained by the company as an example of unsafe practice, in the regular safety briefings. What hurt more? The shock that nearly killed him or the embarrassment with his mates? It could have been one of them that was electrocuted instead. The same cooling ventillation louvres are on most lathes and other control equipment cabinets in home workshops. So NEVER poke anything into a hole  in electrical equipment. You may not be aware of what kills you.
Take care and enjoy your hobby.
K2


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## perko7 (Sep 21, 2021)

Seems like most of us have a tale to tell. A friend of my dad's had one of those (Titan or Triton) saw bench thingy's with the upside down circular saw clamped to the underside. Passing some wood through wearing his bifocals, looked through the wrong part of the lens and lost most of 3 fingers. Always used a pusher piece after that.


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## Steamchick (Sep 21, 2021)

Sorry to hear about your Dad's friend. I was taught to use the school's circular saw at 13 years old. Now they are banned in schools. So how can anyone learn about safely using machinery?
K2


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Sep 21, 2021)

Bloody electrical circuits. I was working on a 3 phase mig welding plant. Had the sides off and was trying to trace a fault. I also had a hiatus hernia and had been suffering with reflux for years. Normally Zantac kept it under control but with no closure to the stomach and working almost upside down the contents came up. I found at that moment how well stomach liquid conducts 400 volt AC. The staff picked me up from the other side of the workshop where I was sitting against the workshop wall shaking and wondering what had happened. I have now had keyhole surgery and the hiatus hernia has been repaired and I don't have to keep the manufacturers of Zantac in the manor to which they had become accustomed. Just remember, vomit and 400v three phase don't mix.


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## Steamchick (Sep 23, 2021)

GJT: I try and understand the purpose of the OFF switch before I get excited by electrickery.... it simply frickens me! Sorry to hear of your gut problems... 
K2


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## skyline1 (Sep 23, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> I was taught to use the school's circular saw at 13 years old. Now they are banned in schools. So how can anyone learn about safely using machinery?



This is so true, We try to keep our digits, eyes, ears, and all the other bits safe by adopting safe practices. We do so because we have been taught the safe practices, and allowed to actually use and demonstrate them in a real world setting, under good supervision.

With particularly dangerous machine tools like circular saws and angle grinders, our government's policy is increasingly just to ban students from using them in schools rather than teaching them how to use them properly and safely.

The result of this is we are in peril of (in fact, already are) producing a generation of young adults who don't know how to use even the simplest hand tools properly let alone powerful machine tools.

I personally think this is a very bad policy and some of this fanatical Health and Safety mollycoddling actually has a negative effect. Young people are becoming LESS risk aware, having never been exposed to the dangers and the steps needed to mitigate them, in a controlled and supervised environment.

Best Regards Mark


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## Steamchick (Sep 23, 2021)

Putting it simply, even the teachers are too young to have been properly (industrially) trained, so I would not trust them to teach the kids the safety required. 
I worked from 11 in the woodwork and metalwork shop in spare time, so was taught a lot and had lots of experience, before join an Uncle's machine shop at 13 (part time), instead of delivering newspapers.... 
I had completed an apprenticeship by the time I was 18, albeit "unofficial". But that was just the start for 45 years of real Engineering.... and I am still learning and practicing with help from all the expert contributors here... 
And I can still hit my thumb with a hammer!
K2


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## skyline1 (Sep 23, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Putting it simply, even the teachers are too young to have been properly (industrially) trained, so I would not trust them to teach the kids the safety required.



Yes, this "blind leading the blind" situation is becoming more and more common  and not just in  the schools. It is creeping upwards to the technical colleges and dare I say it, even university engineering departments.



Steamchick said:


> But that was just the start for 45 years of real Engineering.... and I am still learning and practicing with help from all the expert contributors here...
> And I can still hit my thumb with a hammer!



Me Too ! especially the thumb/hammer bit and I still curse and swear when I do. Watch out they'll ban hammers soon, far too dangerous ! 

Best Regards Mark


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## Richard Hed (Sep 23, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Putting it simply, even the teachers are too young to have been properly (industrially) trained, so I would not trust them to teach the kids the safety required.
> I worked from 11 in the woodwork and metalwork shop in spare time, so was taught a lot and had lots of experience, before join an Uncle's machine shop at 13 (part time), instead of delivering newspapers....
> I had completed an apprenticeship by the time I was 18, albeit "unofficial". But that was just the start for 45 years of real Engineering.... and I am still learning and practicing with help from all the expert contributors here...
> And I can still hit my thumb with a hammer!
> K2


yup, a few years back, I needed to hammer on some piece of metal.  I didn't have a glove on but slowly realized I better put a glove on.  So I put a welding glove on "just in case".   Well you know what happened, I did infact hit my thumb but oh, how much worse it waould have been without the glove.


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## Richard Hed (Sep 23, 2021)

skyline1 said:


> Yes, this "blind leading the blind" situation is becoming more and more common  and not just in  the schools. It is creeping upwards to the technical colleges and dare I say it, even university engineering departments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes!  Hammers are too dangerous   -- they will have to have a cage built around them.


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Sep 24, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> GJT: I try and understand the purpose of the OFF switch before I get excited by electrickery.... it simply frickens me! Sorry to hear of your gut problems...
> K2


Hi Steamchick. I do understand the purpose of the OFF switch but needed the machine powered up to find the fault, wonderful stuff electrickery and yes it does fricken me, especially when playing around with inverter drives that play around with 575v DC. Now that can hurt but only once. By the way, my gut problem is now over, keyhole surgery. Got to go now and play around with a condensate drain not working on a 35Kw compressor / dryer.


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## L98fiero (Sep 24, 2021)

GrahamJTaylor49 said:


> Hi Steamchick. I do understand the purpose of the OFF switch but needed the machine powered up to find the fault, wonderful stuff electrickery and yes it does fricken me, especially when playing around with inverter drives that play around with 575v DC. Now that can hurt but only once. By the way, my gut problem is now over, keyhole surgery. Got to go now and play around with a condensate drain not working on a 35Kw compressor / dryer.


I was told that 220/240v is more dangerous because you can still hang onto it while being electrocuted while 575/600v will 'blow you off' the conductor, not sure that's true and I'm not willing to try it either though I did know an electrician that was blown off a ladder when he contacted a 575v line. That guy was deathly afraid of 575v and being an industrial electrician in Ontario, I'm not sure how he did his job.


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## SmithDoor (Sep 24, 2021)

They one saying at retirement can count to 20 on hands and toes.

Back 1970's they most shop accident happens in last 2 hours of day.

If look at this data do save safer work at end of day.

My shop we did cleaning parts and painting in last two hours of day. This worked no accidents need a Doctor only a bandaid.

FYI my shop work in heavy steel brakes to 400 tons and lathes could turn 36".

Dave




Brian Rupnow said:


> I recently gave my 40 year old son a skill saw that I had inherited from my dad. I have my own skillsaw and didn't need two of them. The advice I gave him was to "Know where your fingers are every time you turn this saw on".  This is indeed a creed to live by. I'm 73 years old, and amazingly I have all 10 digits. One finger on my right hand was cut off with a trimming axe when I was six years old, but thru the magic of medical knowledge gained in world war two, sulfa drugs, and a very forward thinking village doctor, the finger was reattached, and full mobility of it was restored. The last joint closest to the end of my finger doesn't bend quite as well as its counterpart on the other hand, but I have full feeling in the finger and after 67 years I never really think of it. When I was a teenager, we were poorer than dirt and lived down an unpaved sideroad. A family with at least half a dozen boys lived in the road about a mile from where we lived. One Sunday morning the oldest son walked out to our place and asked my dad if his dad could borrow dads skillsaw. Dad gave it to him with the express warning to "Watch where your fingers are." About 2:00 that afternoon, the same boy walked back out to our place with the skillsaw in one hand, and two fingers wrapped in a cloth in the other hand, and wanted to know if dad could drive him up town to see the doctor. They couldn't reattach the fingers, too much time had gone by. Think about this story every time you flip on a lathe, a mill, a grinder, or any of the other power tools we all own. Know where your fingers are first!!!


6


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## Randoo (Sep 24, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> I was told that 220/240v is more dangerous because you can still hang onto it while being electrocuted while 575/600v will 'blow you off' the conductor, not sure that's true and I'm not willing to try it either though I did know an electrician that was blown off a ladder when he contacted a 575v line. That guy was deathly afraid of 575v and being an industrial electrician in Ontario, I'm not sure how he did his job.


A/C voltage tends to blow you off but D/C voltage makes your grip lock onto it.


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## Richard Hed (Sep 24, 2021)

Randoo said:


> A/C voltage tends to blow you off but D/C voltage makes your grip lock onto it.


I went to high school in Toutle in the 60's.  Visited Kelso for pizza and pool.


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## Randoo (Sep 25, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> I went to high school in Toutle in the 60's.  Visited Kelso for pizza and pool.


Kelso area has the best pizza


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## MRA (Sep 25, 2021)

skyline1 said:


> Yes, this "blind leading the blind" situation is becoming more and more common  and not just in  the schools. It is creeping upwards to the technical colleges and dare I say it, even university engineering departments.



Better believe it.  In my university engineering department (lower-ranking UK institution) the 'head technician' is someone who previously sold phones in a shop, and who was recruited for 'showing initiative' with an interview panel question they couldn't answer, by looking it up on their phone.  The question was  - 'how do you wire a plug' - which tells you a lot about the panel, as well as the appointee.  

Well, they were recruited as a technician, and swiftly promoted to lower-tier management - perhaps there were not enough plugs to wire up.  But they do what is required, which is to pass down undigested management edicts from further up the tree without question!  

This can only go on so long before a department collapses - this may be happening to the group adjacent to us.  But the process takes such a long time in universities, as reasonable people retire and then sh*te recruits sh*te.


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Sep 25, 2021)

MRA said:


> Better believe it.  In my university engineering department (lower-ranking UK institution) the 'head technician' is someone who previously sold phones in a shop, and who was recruited for 'showing initiative' with an interview panel question they couldn't answer, by looking it up on their phone.  The question was  - 'how do you wire a plug' - which tells you a lot about the panel, as well as the appointee.
> 
> Well, they were recruited as a technician, and swiftly promoted to lower-tier management - perhaps there were not enough plugs to wire up.  But they do what is required, which is to pass down undigested management edicts from further up the tree without question!
> 
> This can only go on so long before a department collapses - this may be happening to the group adjacent to us.  But the process takes such a long time in universities, as reasonable people retire and then sh*te recruits sh*te.


Try looking up "The Peter Principal" by Dr. Laurence Peter and Raymond Hill, Every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence, and in my career of getting on for 50+ years in industry I have seen it occur O so many times.


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## Steamchick (Sep 25, 2021)

GrahamJTaylor49 said:


> Hi Steamchick. I do understand the purpose of the OFF switch but needed the machine powered up to find the fault, wonderful stuff electrickery and yes it does fricken me, especially when playing around with inverter drives that play around with 575v DC. Now that can hurt but only once. By the way, my gut problem is now over, keyhole surgery. Got to go now and play around with a condensate drain not working on a 35Kw compressor / dryer.


Hi Graham. No offence intended. I assumed you had to work "Live" - otherwise you wouldn't have put yourself in such a predicament in the first place! But I once stopped an "electrical engineer" from poking a neon voltage detecting screwdriver towards a live 18kV busbar... he didn't appreciate that you don't need to touch live wires, just poke something into an electric field and the spark will find  the point of break-down in the air and fry you in the process...!
Your hairs will stand on end - and form the points where the sparks strike!
If ever you see a power-line brought to ground in a storm.... stand on 1 leg, or keep feet together, until the sparks have stopped for more than 10 seconds. Don't walk away while sparks are flashing, as you may drop-down dead from the heart attack when the field goes up one leg across the heart and down the other...
I understand that most people struck by a lightening bolt survive if totally soaked from the rain, because the current runs down the water, not through the body. Standing under a tree can help. as that will explode before the current hits you... (just watch-out for the large lumps of exploding tree flying past your ears though).
K2


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## Steamchick (Sep 25, 2021)

GrahamJTaylor49 said:


> Try looking up "The Peter Principal" by Dr. Laurence Peter and Raymond Hill, Every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence, and in my career of getting on for 50+ years in industry I have seen it occur O so many times.


So that is why I was never promoted....!#@""%£!
Thanks for that one.
Advice to anyone else reading my posts.
It seems I have spent my lifetime proving I am incompetent - according to the Peter Principle - so please enjoy, but do not follow my advice.
Cheers!
K2


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## L98fiero (Sep 25, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> So that is why I was never promoted....!#@""%£!
> Thanks for that one.
> Advice to anyone else reading my posts.
> It seems I have spent my lifetime proving I am incompetent - according to the Peter Principle - so please enjoy, but do not follow my advice.
> ...


If you were incompetent you'd have been promoted, that keeps the incompetents from being real problems and where they can hurt people and mess up projects.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 25, 2021)

There are two things in life that never fail to make your heart go thumpity thump. One is to saw a 1" thick block of aluminum on a carbide tipped table saw and have it kick back at you at 300 miles an hour. The other is to be machining a piece of pipe on the lathe without any support at the tailstock end, have the tool dig in, the pipe then pulling out of the chuck and chasing you around the room. I lived thru both of those exciting things, the only direct effect being a change of underwear. I don't do those things anymore!!


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## skyline1 (Sep 25, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> But I once stopped an "electrical engineer" from poking a neon voltage detecting screwdriver towards a live 18kV busbar...



Now there is one thing that SHOULD be banned. Those neon screwdrivers, they are highly dangerous and frowned upon at 240V but at 18 kV they are suicidal. 

Get anywhere near that busbar with one of those and you are dead, or rather what's left of you is, you don't have to actually touch it. Good job you stopped him ! He should have known better but we all have moments of stupidity.

Best Regards Mark


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## Richard Hed (Sep 25, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> So that is why I was never promoted....!#@""%£!
> Thanks for that one.
> Advice to anyone else reading my posts.
> It seems I have spent my lifetime proving I am incompetent - according to the Peter Principle - so please enjoy, but do not follow my advice.
> ...


 The peter principle is not the ONLY reason you may not have been promoted.  THere are several others including:  you might be competition to someone (a narcissist/psychopath) who can stop you from being promoted as long as they are above you in the corporate line; you may be "perfect" where you are--that is, management doesn't care that the fact may be that you would or could contribute even MORE if you were promoted--they need someone where you are and they are not likely to get anyone as good as you in THAT POSITION (we bend over BACKWARDS for our employees--ever seen anyone bend over backwards--looks obscene?); 


Brian Rupnow said:


> There are two things in life that never fail to make your heart go thumpity thump. One is to saw a 1" thick block of aluminum on a carbide tipped table saw and have it kick back at you at 300 miles an hour. The other is to be machining a piece of pipe on the lathe without any support at the tailstock end, have the tool dig in, the pipe then pulling out of the chuck and chasing you around the room. I lived thru both of those exciting things, the only direct effect being a change of underwear. I don't do those things anymore!!


WHAT?  You don't change your underwear anymore?  That's disgusting.  I change MINE once a month religiously.


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## Steamchick (Sep 26, 2021)

Cheers Richard. 
Maybe I didn't want to be included in the crowd of idiot "Yes-men" who were ranked above me.... If you don't respect the ability of the individuals above it deters promotion.... 
Personally I preferred "the proper job done properly", that I think I did. I trained 4 people to take on all the tasks I did. 2 Graduate "engineers", and 2 regular guys who each took on what they considered to be a half an engineers job. No-one appreciated what I did till I was leaving! The "Manager" publicly said I did the work of 2 1/2 engineers, on my leaving day.... based on the resources he had to use to replace me. Tough for him? With 2 engineers (ex-grads) joining the section when I retired, plus all the extra overtime for the other 2, they planned to recruit another engineer, just to do all my work. So the manager increased the section from 7 to 9 people as I left!
Now I'm retired, being a pain-in-the-butt to you lot! Ha! Ha!
K2


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## ajoeiam (Sep 26, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Cheers Richard.
> Maybe I didn't want to be included in the crowd of idiot "Yes-men" who were ranked above me.... If you don't respect the ability of the individuals above it deters promotion....
> Personally I preferred "the proper job done properly", that I think I did. I trained 4 people to take on all the tasks I did. 2 Graduate "engineers", and 2 regular guys who each took on what they considered to be a half an engineers job. No-one appreciated what I did till I was leaving! The "Manager" publicly said I did the work of 2 1/2 engineers, on my leaving day.... based on the resources he had to use to replace me. Tough for him? With 2 engineers (ex-grads) joining the section when I retired, plus all the extra overtime for the other 2, they planned to recruit another engineer, just to do all my work. So the manager increased the section from 7 to 9 people as I left!
> Now I'm retired, being a pain-in-the-butt to you lot! Ha! Ha!
> K2


(Tongue firmly in cheek! - - - LOL) 
Speaking for myself  - - - - - loving every minute of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (LOL)


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## ShopShoe (Sep 27, 2021)

"So the manager increased the section from 7 to 9 people as I left!"

The other thing I have seen multiple times is the person leaving spent their time asking for tools, workspace, budget, etc. and the company adds all those in order to recruit the new person. This especially happens after multiple new hires find a better job before they even show up for their first day.


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## ChazzC (Sep 29, 2021)

awake said:


> When I was first setting up a home machine shop, my first purchase was my venerable 12.5" x 30" Cincinnati TrayTop lathe. "Only" 1800 lbs, child's play to the experienced machinist who helped me assess it and then move it. It needed a good bit of work, both cleaning and repairing, so at first it stayed on the rather dubious wheeled supports that it was on when I bought it. By this point, my machinist friend had showed me how easy it was to jack up an end with a plain old bottle jack in order to put cribbing under it.
> 
> I failed to consider two things: first was that what he showed me involved very small vertical movements at a time, followed by the cribbing, before another incremental movement. Second was that, when he was helping me move it around, we had removed the motor, which hangs out off the back.
> 
> So when I was moving the lathe into final position, I attempted to jack it up enough to remove the wheeled base all at once. No problem on the tailstock end, so my confidence was high as I started on the headstock end. Only to see the lathe begin to tilt backward as it was a bit unbalanced on the bottle jack. As I was starting to scramble to get away -- I was not well-positioned for a quick exit, which was a point of learning of its own! -- it came to rest, with the knob that adjusts the taper fixture punching through the drywall, but coming to rest on the outside wall. After I recovered from sheer terror, I thought very, very carefully about whether I could safely redeem the situation. I decided to give it a try, and carefully pulled - and the lathe tilted back upright as easy as pie. I got very, very lucky - it was right at the point of balance. Any further, and it would have been a goner, and/or I might have been caught in the fall.



About 25 years ago I was working as a consultant and needed a rigger to move some equipment. There were several in the immediate vicinity, but I chose a family run business who had good industrial references. We were discussing the estimated time required for my job and they told me about a job they had recently completed. The maintenance crew at a nearby nuclear reactor facility had attempted to relocate a 12" x 48" (or there about) lathe across their shop and had managed to tip it against the wall much as you had. Management not trusting the crew to get themselves out of trouble, they reached out to the riggers, who were located about a mile away, to set things right. After about five hours of security checks, safety & radiation indoctrination, suiting up in approved coveralls, etc., they were allowed into the shop where with their proper equipment and experience they safely righted the lathe and moved it across the shop in about a half hour. The one bright spot was that now they were cleared for work within the facility and got numerous jobs afterwards. The moral of this story is that you need to carefully evaluate the job at hand and bring in the pros when necessary.

I have been fortunate in that I have always had access to professionals who were willing to share knowledge and offer guidance on things I wasn't sure of. Thus I was able to get the right equipment for a task and also to realize when something was beyond my ability.


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## gartof (Sep 29, 2021)

ChazzC said:


> About 25 years ago I was working as a consultant and needed a rigger to move some equipment. There were several in the immediate vicinity, but I chose a family run business who had good industrial references. We were discussing the estimated time required for my job and they told me about a job they had recently completed. The maintenance crew at a nearby nuclear reactor facility had attempted to relocate a 12" x 48" (or there about) lathe across their shop and had managed to tip it against the wall much as you had. Management not trusting the crew to get themselves out of trouble, they reached out to the riggers, who were located about a mile away, to set things right. After about five hours of security checks, safety & radiation indoctrination, suiting up in approved coveralls, etc., they were allowed into the shop where with their proper equipment and experience they safely righted the lathe and moved it across the shop in about a half hour. The one bright spot was that now they were cleared for work within the facility and got numerous jobs afterwards. The moral of this story is that you need to carefully evaluate the job at hand and bring in the pros when necessary.
> 
> I have been fortunate in that I have always had access to professionals who were willing to share knowledge and offer guidance on things I wasn't sure of. Thus I was able to get the right equipment for a task and also to realize when something was beyond my ability.


The sign of a well planned job is that  nothing exciting happens.


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