# raym/rupinow vert hit & miss



## el gringo (Sep 16, 2019)

will be showing progress pics as I slowly go...






couldn't find my oval drillbit for the oval hole so I made a Chuck felllows carb....put a little radius on the journal end of the webs.


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## el gringo (Sep 17, 2019)

seems like lots or counterweight but I defer to Brian's calcs




Raym


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 17, 2019)

Looking very good Ray. It is always nice to see one of my designs being built. I did email you instructions on how to make the oval hole in the main fuel rail. Not sure that you received them. The Chuck Fellows carburetor works very well on throttled engines, but is not intended for use on a hit and miss engine. I will follow your build with great interest.---Brian


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## el gringo (Sep 18, 2019)

here you go Brian, I designed and built this engine in 2016. Imade a Chuck Fellows carb for it. 



Raym


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## el gringo (Sep 18, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Looking very good Ray. It is always nice to see one of my designs being built. I did email you instructions on how to make the oval hole in the main fuel rail. Not sure that you received them. The Chuck Fellows carburetor works very well on throttled engines, but is not intended for use on a hit and miss engine. I will follow your build with great interest.---Brian


 My humor is not appreciated.... I didn't look around too long for an oval drill bit.
Raym


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 18, 2019)

Well Ray, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Your hit and miss engine with the Chuck Fellows carb on it works great. Nice looking engine.---Brian


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## el gringo (Sep 25, 2019)

conrod







I turned the crank journal .004 under so I had to size it the hard way.
I used to blame my old Southbend 9 for mistakes until I realized I'm ten yrs older than the lathe. 





















I extend the center pilot hole thru the cross hole for additional lube access 





tomatoes I ripped off my neighbors patch 






I GUESS NOW ITS ONTO THE 'JUG'


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 25, 2019)

Ray--nice con-rod. I didn't turn the one on my engine, because it cleared the bottom of the cylinder okay without being turned. Since it was going to be inside the engine where nobody but me would ever see it, I just left it "full profile".---Brian


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## werowance (Sep 26, 2019)

looking good.


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## el gringo (Oct 3, 2019)

temporary fitup



crankshaft end play controlled by inner race of ball brg. measured <.001 ....
BTW the conrod material is 7075 t-6 which should wear well in lieu of a proper big end brg.




The jug seems to fit, now to take off and hone to size...looks like a lot of tool marks and cleanup to do on the crankcase... BTW I use 1/32 Teflon sheet for gasket material.
Onto making piston and rings.
Brian, how thick are the purchased rings?  
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 3, 2019)

Ray--the purchased rings are .094" thick. When I cut the ring grooves in the piston by plunge cutting with my .094" parting off blade, the rings were too tight a fit in the grooves. I ended up putting some 600 grit aluminum oxide paste on a piece of window glass and lapping both sides of the rings so they would fit into the ring grooves freely.


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## el gringo (Oct 3, 2019)

yes, that is an important fit. I,ve heard there is more leakage there than at the gaps.
I was not asking about the width but the radial thickness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just finished the final honing of the cyl. Nasty work!





boring the cyl, all operations done  in the 4-jaw except the internal chamfer 






I lost count of the fins
Ray M


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## el gringo (Oct 7, 2019)

hi Brian,
In making rings I use Trimbles formula for radial thickness,not more than 1/25 of  cyl dia.
I am curious as to that dimension in the store bought rings. I thought I heard you say you had a spare that could be measured.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 7, 2019)

Ray--I didn't measure what you are asking for on the rings, and I don't have a spare one to measure.--Wish I had. The people I bought the rings from gave me the width and depth of slot required, and that's what I put on the piston drawing.---Brian


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## el gringo (Oct 7, 2019)

thanks for the reply,
What is the ring groove depth? I cant seem to find it on the piston dwg.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 7, 2019)

It was a trick Ray---I forgot to put it on the drawing!!---Brian




​


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## el gringo (Oct 14, 2019)

I don't have the metal for the piston yet so I STARTED CARVING ON THE FLYWHEEL ...




somewhere in that cast iron a flywheel is being born.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 14, 2019)

Looking good, Ray. There is a world of hogging on that flywheel.---Brian


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## el gringo (Oct 21, 2019)

piston & flywheel...piston ring depth= .044  ring thickness = .040 less pressure on the cyl wall












and finally the garlic patch,




keeps the werewolves out of the shop
Ray M


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## el gringo (Oct 22, 2019)

BTW piston material= aluminum 2024-t4
Ray M


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## el gringo (Oct 25, 2019)

I was looking at the "weight" drawing and it is difficult for me to discern the actual lines of the part from the dimensional lines... is it possible to ask the computer to define the lines of one or the other on the drawing ?
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 25, 2019)

Ray--Maybe this will help.---Brian


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## el gringo (Oct 25, 2019)

Thanks!
Ray M


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## el gringo (Oct 26, 2019)

Hi Brian,

There is a .063 hole in the cyl head and a matching one in the upper bracket, what are they for?
RAy M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 26, 2019)

They were in there mainly for set-up. I put an 0.063" pin in there to hold everything in correct alignment before I  drilled the holes in the bracket and cylinder. The hole really doesn't have anything to do with the function of the engine.--Brian


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## el gringo (Oct 26, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> They were in there mainly for set-up. I put an 0.063" pin in there to hold everything in correct alignment before I  drilled the holes in the bracket and cylinder. The hole really doesn't have anything to do with the function of the engine.--Brian



good idea!! I'll do that when I get there.
Ray M


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## el gringo (Oct 30, 2019)

upper bracket... kind of a tetchy part for me to make.






in a vise on the mill





in the vise on the mill... the vise turned 30degrees on the mill bed to pick up the angles




in the rotary table on the mill





please holler if any questions
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 30, 2019)

Good looking parts Ray. That bracket is a good example of something made for "pretty". It could have been a lot simpler, but it wouldn't have looked nearly as nice.---Brian


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## el gringo (Nov 1, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Good looking parts Ray. That bracket is a good example of something made for "pretty". It could have been a lot simpler, but it wouldn't have looked nearly as nice.---Brian


yes, truly a case where form doesn't follow function. I suppose the question of form and /or function must have come up often for a design engineer due to possible cost
implications.
One of my favorite examples of a 'form  and function' design is my old Southbend 9 inch model 'a' lathe.
Ray M


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## el gringo (Nov 8, 2019)

cylinder head










 parting off a valve cage
















an old photo showing how I used VSR to grind in the valves to the cage...
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 8, 2019)

Your making some good progress Ray. I also when I get to it am going to have a go at making the rings which I have never done . 
I have been saving a little bit of cast iron I have left over from another job that I got from Germany for making some rings as it seems
a better quality than what I have sourced locally of ebay.
Cheers
John


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## el gringo (Nov 8, 2019)

I think I will make rings next... will try to Make a somewhat detailed show and tell as to the way I make them... I use some of these instructions as a help. 
http://jerry-howell.com/PistonRings.html




I usually slice off more'n I need "allow for breakage"

Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 8, 2019)

Good stuff. I'll be watching
John


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## el gringo (Nov 18, 2019)

Looks like I have ~ 4.72:1 Compression Ratio with >.032 gaskets @ top and bottom of cyl. Am wondering how that compares with the original? 
Looks like I can increase to ~5.5:1 by using .010 and .016 thick gaskets top and bottom...Also wondering what would be minimum CR for this engine to run properly?

Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 18, 2019)

Ray--I used .031" thick gasket under the cylinder and under the cylinder head. Engine ran just fine with that. I am not sure what you mean by minimum CR. I don't know what CR is.---Brian


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## el gringo (Nov 18, 2019)

Sorry Brian, here is a definition... 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

 Do you have a feel for what the compression ratio is on your engine, possibly in your design notes?, or by checking the distance from top of piston @ TDC to cylinder deck with your computer aided design criteria or direct measurement?
Can anyone suggest a low end Compression Ratio on this type of engine? 
I am wondering if I have made a mistake in dimensions and should possibly re-make some parts before continuing... looks like I can increase the CR to ~5.5:1 by decreasing gasket thickness to .o12 if need be. 
Thanks 
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 18, 2019)

Ray--For this type of engine compression ratio only needs to be 3.5:1 up to 5:1  The higher the compression ratio is, the less chance the engine will have of restarting after a series of misses. I believe the compression ratio of my engine is 4.5:1.--Brian


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## el gringo (Nov 18, 2019)

Thank you Brian... looks like my 4.7:1 is in line with yours,  I didn't need to create a cavity in the head because of the type of spark plug used. I might use a .010 gasket on top cyl in order to increase the CR to 5:1.
Raym


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## el gringo (Dec 1, 2019)

RINGS

the blank finished to ID&OD of rings















making spares 




breaking for the gap





loaded on the heat treating fixture 




to be continued...


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## el gringo (Dec 1, 2019)

RINGS... continued


heating with acetylene torch without direct flame contact with the rings





'bout the color of a robins breast




cleaning up the rough edges prior to final fit in the cyl (.003" gap)





after de-burr and cleanup





installed on piston





cyl wall after thirty minute test run-in using external motor power




Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 1, 2019)

Hi Ray---Good to hear from you. Your rings look great. I've never had a lot of luck making my own cast iron rings. You must be getting close to the finish line.---Brian


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## el gringo (Dec 1, 2019)

In more ways than one....
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Dec 2, 2019)

Thanks for those pictures on the ring making Ray.
I will definitely have a go at making them. Is the od  the same as the cylinder bore and what should I be aiming for the id.
Cheers
John


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## el gringo (Dec 2, 2019)

Johno1958 said:


> Thanks for those pictures on the ring making Ray.
> I will definitely have a go at making them. Is the od  the same as the cylinder bore and what should I be aiming for the id.
> Cheers
> John


Those I made the OD .001 larger than the bore and the ID .003 larger than the piston groove diameter ...The ring end gap when fitted squarely in the cyl needs to be adjusted to ~ .003.
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Dec 2, 2019)

Thanking you


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## el gringo (Feb 6, 2020)

Brian 
How is the governor pawl affixed.... is it a pin, screw, whatever.
I noticed a .110 hole in the upper bracket ...what is the center-line location vertically in the bracket.  
Ray M


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## el gringo (Feb 7, 2020)

Brian
How is the governor pawl affixed.... is it a pin, screw, whatever.
I noticed a .110 hole in the upper bracket ...what is the center-line location  in the bracket.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 7, 2020)

Hi Ray--I was wondering where you were. The governor pawl rotates on a 3/32" x 3/4" long steel pin that passes thru the pawl and is loctited into the 3/32" hole in "upper bracket-b".  This is kind of a pig to assemble, as you have to pass the pin thru the pawl and into the bracket all in one go. There isn't enough clearance to let you do it any other way. It works, but it's a close thing.---Brian


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## el gringo (Feb 7, 2020)

thanks Brian,
could you show me the dimensional location of the pawl pin hole in the upper bracket? The dwgs only show one center line?
Ray


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## el gringo (Feb 7, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Hi Ray--I was wondering where you were. The governor pawl rotates on a 3/32" x 3/4" long steel pin that passes thru the pawl and is loctited into the 3/32" hole in "upper bracket-b".  This is kind of a pig to assemble, as you have to pass the pin thru the pawl and into the bracket all in one go. There isn't enough clearance to let you do it any other way. It works, but it's a close thing.---Brian


what keeps the pawl in place longitudinally on the pin?
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 7, 2020)

On the other end of the pawl, there is a 3/32" steel pin "Follower A" Loctited into the pawl. The other end of this pin slides into the 3/32" gap in the "Governor thimble A" The pawl can't slide off of the red pin because the pin in the other end "Follower A" can't slide out of the slot in thimble A.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 7, 2020)




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## el gringo (Feb 7, 2020)

Yes  the pin hole centerline looks like .251 from the horizontal center of the upper bracket...where is it located on the vertical axis?
Ray


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 7, 2020)

Ray--Maybe I'm being a little slow here---There is a note beside the .094" dimension that says the hole is on the center of the plate thickness, and the hole goes all the way thru the plate. The hole actually breaks out into the hole for the socket head cap screw, but the pin itself is short enough that it stops just short of the capscrew hole.


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## el gringo (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks  Brian...dummy missed the note.


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## el gringo (Feb 11, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> On the other end of the pawl, there is a 3/32" steel pin "Follower A" Loctited into the pawl. The other end of this pin slides into the 3/32" gap in the "Governor thimble A" The pawl can't slide off of the red pin because the pin in the other end "Follower A" can't slide out of the slot in thimble A.


My copy doesn't have any notes...


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## el gringo (Feb 11, 2020)

el gringo said:


> My copy doesn't have any notes...


Could you also check the two mount holes for the upper bracket B...location, threaded or unthreaded ? 
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 12, 2020)

Ray--I just tried to send you two new drawings but the email address I have for you isn't working. Please send me an updated email address.---Brian


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## el gringo (Feb 12, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Ray--I just tried to send you two new drawings but the email address I have for you isn't working. Please send me an updated email address.---Brian


will do.. e-address hasn't changed


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 12, 2020)

Ray--I had your address written down wrong. Had too many s's in it. got it fixed and sent you the two drawings.---Brian


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## el gringo (Feb 14, 2020)

I located the mount holes for upper bracket A in upper bracket B bass-ackwards but it works anyway.
Magic?
BTW is anyone else building this or is it just me?
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Feb 14, 2020)

Sorry Ray. At the moment I have stopped work on mine, it's been too hot to even think about going in the garage... cookin


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 14, 2020)

Ray, I don't know. I sold about eight sets of plans for this engine, but as far as I know, you are the only person currently building one. It's a nice little engine, but it is fairly complex.---Brian


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## el gringo (Feb 14, 2020)

The Bob Shore original was one of my first IC engines, smaller as you know (you have the drawings). Didn't seem that complex.
BTW, what do you think of my magic hole layout working in spite of myself ?
Ray M


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## el gringo (Feb 23, 2020)

el gringo said:


> I located the mount holes for upper bracket A in upper bracket B bass-ackwards but it works anyway.
> Magic?


I found my confusion with upper bracket B was because I expected the view on the drawing to be the view from the top of the bracket. I made it as per drg., flipped it like a hamburger an it works.
Still waiting for a comment from others whom might be building this project or have reviewed the plans, thanks for your reply Johno.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 23, 2020)

Ray---How far are you from a running engine?--Brian


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## el gringo (Feb 23, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Ray---How far are you from a running engine?--Brian


On a timeline I don't have the foggiest...

Am thinking of placing the gas tank under the engine as I did with the  with the Silver Angel 


 , and all previous engines, if it will suck it up? Might need to mess with the CR.

Still need to talk to Roy Sholl about ordering ignition system.


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## el gringo (Apr 15, 2020)

Progress pix....The 'jewelry looking ' parts are Naval Bronze


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2020)

Looking very good Ray.---Brian


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## awake (Apr 16, 2020)

Looks like you are close to the first pop! Great work!


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## jumps4 (Apr 17, 2020)

Hi I have been following your build
I'm a little confused by your exhaust valve cam timing in the photographs. Shouldn't the small gear be on the crankshaft?
Steve


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 17, 2020)

jumps4 is correct. You have the gears reversed. The small gear goes on the crankshaft, the big gear goes on the vertical camshaft.


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## el gringo (Apr 17, 2020)

thanx guys ...I will change that on the final fitup...wouldn't want those little ole' flyballs flying too far


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## el gringo (May 13, 2020)

continuum


...




















don't know why there are copies of pics.
Ray M


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## Brian Rupnow (May 13, 2020)

Looking really good Ray.---Must be just about ready to run.---Brian


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## el gringo (May 13, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Looking really good Ray.---Must be just about ready to run.---Brian


got ta make a gas tank and wire it in...note the timing shoe at the bottom of the cam shaft.

Ray M


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## teeleevs (May 14, 2020)

el gringo said:


> continuumView attachment 116241
> ...
> 
> View attachment 116239
> ...


Looking good


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## el gringo (Jun 1, 2020)

only ~10 months and the 'tulip tank is ready to wire up...


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 1, 2020)

Nifty gas tank Ray----Almost looks like I could drink champagne out of it!!


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## el gringo (Jun 6, 2020)




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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 6, 2020)

Great job Ray.--I think yours runs better than mine.---Brian


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## el gringo (Dec 9, 2020)

with tail lites


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## el gringo (Dec 10, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Great job Ray.--I think yours runs better than mine.---Brian


check out the tail lights!!!!!!!!!!!!


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