# Toyota chips worth billions ( salt anyone? )



## ieezitin (Jan 30, 2010)

OK.

Someone informed me that the Toyota accelerator problem was related to a computer glitch, its quite like a fly by wire set up. I do not know if this is correct but for the case of my topic lets assume it is.

I dont trust computers as far as you can throw them. Over the last 25 years of being around computers in the home and to sum degree at work I have seen nothing yet to make me change my mind.

Computers play such a major roll in our society that its left huge open gaps for abuse, damage and miss information, if my small town banks computer system failed as at the same time its back up went out to lunch, who on earth would convince them that I had X Y Z in the bank, coupled with the integrity of bankers these days im done for.

I am a pipe welder, I did a job in quite a fare size city here on the eastern seaboard of the united states back in 1998. The building was high and on top on the building they had two Caterpillar generators as a back up system solely for there computer system. The customer was a major bank here. We were installing two new fuel lines up the chase in the middle of the building. The facilities manager told me that the computer center housed here filters through ¼ of the US commerce each day. Go figure how venerable that is.

The Europeans have collectively been building commercial jet liners that are strictly fly by wire and there record is dismal. Now I know you could not fly a f22 without the computer helping you but there is a difference between a single seat jet fighter flying into war and if lost its the price of doing business other than 300 people flying and going on holiday.  I notice Boeing not jumping on the fly by wire wisely so!.

There is a place in this world for computers, just dont rely on them. I know your going to say that a computer is only as good as the program is and this is true, so now we have the human element thrown in. people make mistakes thats why programs will never be 100%.

But I still feel if you had a 100% perfect program these little quirky bits of silica and copper and electrons still have minds of there own.

I after all these years still use a calculator to do sums but if I am not sure will go straight back to pencil and paper and work it out to make myself feel better.

Toyota will be in the hole probably in the billions for a chip worth $0.00003 and a human being that was too interested in going out that night as he was designing the program.

All the best  Anthony.


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## BillH (Jan 30, 2010)

Next time you fly on an airliner, there is a chance the pilot is not even touching the controls on the entire landing process...
Particular in Europe where it is foggy, on a Cat IIIC approach, there is 0 visibility, and 0ft cloud deck. Other words, the pilot never sees anything until the airplane touches the ground.
All done with the autopilots. An interesting side note, I believe the British were the first to do this on the Trident, then Lockheed hired the engineering team to design the auto land system on the L1011. 
Every night I fly, my life is in the hands of mechanical systems. I must the say the reliability record of the mechanical systems are not very good and the electronic based systems are more reliable. I.E.. Steam gauges vs Glass Cockpit.


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## ieezitin (Jan 30, 2010)

Bill

I take it youre a pilot, your experience and knowledge I will accept, you know far more than I will ever know on that subject of electronics and aircraft.

Do you remember Three mile Island?. That snafu was a human error not computer. The operator did not believe the program was doing its job correctly and he override the system which in turn a valve was closed to the cooling system.

Your reliance on the autopilot I feel sure your comfortable with. I just cant get my mind round it though., if they ever put them in cars like they are saying and thats all that were available I for one would give up driving.

All the best         Anthony.


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## Troutsqueezer (Jan 31, 2010)

My Prius is controlled by 4 32 bit processors. There are no buttons on the dashboard, only touch screen. All AC, vents, engine, transmission and traction functions are controlled by microprocessor. After 60k miles, no problems whatsoever, including the gas pedal.

I believe the models that are not hybrid all have mechanical linkage to the fuel injection system but don't know that for a fact.

-T


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## BobWarfield (Jan 31, 2010)

Anthony, why rely on anything that requires science and math rather than just the seat of the pants?

Forget the computer in the airliner. Maybe the structural calculations were done wrong. Maybe the alloys used in the turbine blades were not mixed properly. Maybe the Tig welds are contaminated and not really as strong as we hope. Perhaps the X-rays used to examine the welds don't really work as well as we think. Who would know as we can't see it with our own eyes?

That's the nature of modern life. We depend on science and engineering. There's nothing special about computers. They're just another branch of the science and engineering.

Cheers,

BW


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## Noitoen (Jan 31, 2010)

Modern airliners have a redundant computer system designed and programmed by a complete different team of engineers that are not allowed to discuss anything about the systems. That way it's difficult to make similar mistakes.

Troutsqueeser are you happy with you Prius? I have one and have all sorts of manuals on it's functioning. The car is way advanced for it's time.


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## RonGinger (Jan 31, 2010)

> Forget the computer in the airliner. Maybe the structural calculations were done wrong. Maybe the alloys used in the turbine blades were not mixed properly. Maybe the Tig welds are contaminated and not really as strong as we hope. Perhaps the X-rays used to examine the welds don't really work as well as we think. Who would know as we can't see it with our own eyes?



Several years ago I met a fellow that was the last living member of the team that built the first jet engine. He then worked for many years at GE designing turbines. I got him to speak to the New England Model Engineering Society. He started his talk explaining if you really understood what was happening to an engine in its first minutes of running you would never fly. He described all the changes due to heat, mechanical stress, etc as an engine started. It was great talk, and I always still think about it whenever I fly.


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## itowbig (Jan 31, 2010)

HUMMMMMM  the all mighty WHAT IF.  if i worried every time about the what ifs i would be dead dead dead *bang*.
right now im very happy that i just woke up and im still breathing air YYEEEEEEEEEEEEEE   woohoo1

u would be surprized at what is run with computers only no human imput what so ever
have fun enjoy what is and for get everything else ;D


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## ChooChooMike (Feb 1, 2010)

RonGinger  said:
			
		

> Several years ago I met a fellow that was the last living member of the team that built the first jet engine. He then worked for many years at GE designing turbines. I got him to speak to the New England Model Engineering Society. He started his talk explaining if you really understood what was happening to an engine in its first minutes of running you would never fly. He described all the changes due to heat, mechanical stress, etc as an engine started. It was great talk, and I always still think about it whenever I fly.



Is there any chance you guys filmed/videoed his talk ? I'd LOVE to hear what he had to say. Those "old-timers"/engineers did AMAZING things 

Mike


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 1, 2010)

Noitoen  said:
			
		

> Troutsqueeser are you happy with you Prius? I have one and have all sorts of manuals on it's functioning. The car is way advanced for it's time.



Very happy. I'm a geek kind of guy and researched many of the features found on the car from the planetary gear system to the re-invention of the air conditioning system. My wife wanted it for the gas mileage, I wanted it for all the cool features. I was totally shocked when it became a political symbol of a sort. Tree hugger? Gimme a break! Have these people no appreciation for engineering marvels? :-\

How many other cars out there have engines that run at the same rpm no matter the speed? The engine is always running at it's most efficient rpm.

-Trout


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## capjak (Feb 1, 2010)

As we consider the various benefits of the computerization of our society, Google "Carrington Event" and read the book One Second After. Perhaps we are becoming too dependent on technology. I think in many cases we accept the benefits without understanding how they function and interact with each other. When I started my commercial aviation career in 1964, the only computer on the airplane was a little circular slide rule that I carried in my shirt pocket. When I retired in 1999 the technology that we used was absolutely mind-boggling. The ground based computer that prepared flight plan could analyze a myriad of inputs and issue a plan for a fifteen+ hour flight from Chicago to Hong Kong and be accurate within ten minutes. That said, when we first transitioned to the glass cockpit airplanes, a common response to how a system worked was PFM (Pure F*** Magic). That said, I am not advocating that we stop depending on computers.


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## 1Kenny (Feb 1, 2010)

It is a friction plate problem (artificial feel) and not a computer problem.

Kenny


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## rleete (Feb 1, 2010)

Checking with some former colleagues, it appears that a material spec was not met, or improperly substituted. Hence, the "moisture" issue. Nylon, or some variant was used, which is hydroscopic (absorbs moisture), when most likely delrin or equivalent was speced. Probably as a cost cutting measure. Some heads will roll, for sure.


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## gbritnell (Feb 1, 2010)

I like how they keep alluding to the fact that the 'parts' were made by a domestic source and not from a Japanese source so inferring this is the reason for the whole problem. My good friends, are they trying to say that the supplier didn't follow the company's engineering design? I worked for an auto company and they outsourced lots of parts to be made always to the company's specifications. Undoubtedly Toyota makes a quality product but mechanical devices have failures and this time Toyota has its' turn in the barrel. 
gbritnell


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## charlesfitton (Feb 2, 2010)

...how soon untill the media mentions the huge GM recall on a similar engne runaway problem form the 70's? Engine mounts, wasn't it?


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