# 1/2 scale advance-rumley 60-20 traction engine



## hammers-n-nails (Oct 26, 2009)

well boys here is the begining of our next project, the title says it all. this engine is going to be a copy of and engine that my dads uncle, my great uncle, has had for many years. im sorry i dont have a very good picture of the original ill try to remember to get one next time i go over there. some of the general specs for the model are overall length about 8feet, boiler shell 15'' diameter 30-35 sqft heating surface, rear wheels 32.5'' dia, cylinder size 4.5"diax5"stroke, approximate weight 3000-3500lbs, estimated top speed 1.2mph.

right now dads welding up the boiler and im working on the front axle and pedistal 

heres the pics and comments







best pic i have of the original






the boiler mocked-up






the boiler partially assembled. we whent for a lapped seam boiler for astetic purposes, it will take a considerably longer time to build though






my progress on the pedistal, sorry i didnt get a pic of the pieces before i welded them together, on the end you cant see is a ball that will rest in a socket in the axle to allow it to pivot and tilt side-to-side, i cheated a little bit and used a 2" trailer towing ball. there isnt anything in the pic for scale but the overall length is about 8" and the disk at the bottom is 6 1/2" dia

im having a problem with it and that is that i would like to have a nice 1/4" or so radius where the gussets meet the center pipe, they are welded together obviously and i cant get the die grinder to give a smooth enough finish to satisfy me and the flap disk on the angle grinder cant reach most of it so i was wondering if any of you had any trick ways to accomplish this, i have a cylindrical flap drum for the die grinder but its 1"dia (the smallest i can find) is too big so that doesnt work. any ideas would be great.






the pedistall and front axle on the original


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## rake60 (Oct 26, 2009)

Now that is an impressive project!
Do you have a plan in place for pressure testing the boiler?

Rick


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 26, 2009)

Wait a minute! I thought this forum was about 'model engineering'. ;D
No complaint here! I'll look at anything that is steam and/or moves.

1.2 mph! I'd like to see the snail that can't beat that! Uh..wait..that's not right...

Cool. It's just fascinating to see these things. Thanks.


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## Bill Mc (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Hammers-N-Nails - Did I get this right? 8 feet long and the boiler lifted with a hydraulic block-and-tackle and this is still called a MODEL ???????????? Give me a break!!!! You will have to put a truck wheel beside each parts photo for size comparison. - Just kidding. I happen to love Rumley tractors. Good luck with your project. I will be following you.


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## bearcar1 (Oct 27, 2009)

H/N, you could use a conical stone in a Dremel or die grinder to achieve the radius you are after. It will take a while and several stones (no pun intended) but the end results will be closer to the appearance you are seeking.

Jim B.


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## cfellows (Oct 27, 2009)

Man, that looks like a lot of work! Gonna be a beauty.

Chuck


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## Metal Mickey (Oct 27, 2009)

I don't mean to be picky BUT this is model engineering since its 6" scale. As a UK member do you have to have coded welders in the USA for pressure vessel?

MM


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## hammers-n-nails (Oct 27, 2009)

yeah rick my uncle loaned us a high pressure hand pump to do a hydro test with he said he had taken it up to 300psi on his engine so that would give me a factor of saftey of 2:1 which seems to be pretty standard wouldnt you say?. and to answer your question mickey the answer is it depends on the state i happen to live in missouri where coded boiler isnt required or even a state inspection for non-commercial boilers that you build yourself, the only other state i might go to is iowa and there laws are pretty much the same as near as i can tell.
jim i thought of that but didnt try it because i didnt think the stones would last anytime or work that well but earlier today i got one and tried it and it worked fine after i roughed it in with a burr.


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## Jasonb (Oct 28, 2009)

Over here when calculating boiler designs you work with something like a factor of 5:1 and then test to twice working pressure. We would also not use the type of firebox construction you have, it would be all welded and dummy hornplates attached, and definately not the lapped barrel.

What calculations have you done to etablish plate thickness etc? Have you allowed for the temperature when calculating? What allowance for wasting of the steel? etc

Do you have to get the boiler tested for insurance perposes like we do if we want to ru in public?

Jason


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## hammers-n-nails (Oct 28, 2009)

this exact type of boiler has been built a million times obviosly so there are generally accepted standards that have proven reliable. the main thing is that you use 3/8" a516? boiler plate and a 3/4"dia stay bolts are 4" on center. thats what everybody else does and as far as i know noone has ever had any problems. the show with the strictest standards that i plan to go to gives a visual inspection and performes a hydo test and your good to go. as far as allowing for metal thinning this engine is probably only going to have water in it 1-2times per year so when you compare that with a farm tractor from the 1910's that was in continuous operation getting filled up with pond water, irregular cleaning, etc i figure my grandkids will be dead before it has rusted enough to leak. also this boiler, while it is lap seamed and will have rivet heads on it, the structual joints are all welded just as they would be in any other type of construction, that was just done to make it original looking. i am curios to the objection to using a lapped boiler, why is that?


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## Jasonb (Oct 29, 2009)

Even in the larger scales our boiler barrels tend to be made from seamless tube. I'm not 100% sure if there is a specific ruling on lapped joints but I've never seen one used on a model boiler.

Your 3/8 plate for all parts of the boiler also seems a bit on the thin side, A quick calculation using the formula in one of my Model Traction engine books would give 1/2" plate for a 15" barrel with working pressure of 120psi (5/8" for 150psi)and the stay spacing for 3/8" plate works out at 2 1/2".

3/4" dia stays are OK for 3/8" plate but 1" would be used if following the results of the above calculations.

These figures are seem about right as a 6" Garret engine which also has a 15" barrel would have the barrel, wrapper and firebox in 1/2" plate and the tubeplate and front & rear firebox plates in 5/8" material.

All tube and plate must be the correct spec for boilerwork and accompanied by the paperwork to pruve it.

If you are interested here is a build diry of a 6" garret that shows quite a bit of what goes into a boiler to meet our regulations and some interesting machine setups to deal with some of the larger parts.

Jason

BTW the next model I want to do is a 2" engine and that has 5 gauge (0.212") plate


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## hammers-n-nails (Oct 29, 2009)

i what book do you have on model traction engines? would you reccomend it? i did some calculations after posting yesterday using formulas from the book "steam boilers their theory and design" by HB Parsons and came up with a working pressure of 243 psi working pressure for the barrel assuming a joint strength of 50% burst strength of 1500psi though a welded joint should be 100% and a working pressure of 250psi for 3/8 plate with a stay pitch of 4", also shouldnt a 3/4" stay with tensil strength of 60,000 psi have an ultimate strength of 26,500lbs where the working pressure of 150psi x 32sqin=4800lbs, giving a factor of saftey of 5.5?


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## Jasonb (Oct 30, 2009)

I took the formula from "Introducing Model Traction Engine Construction" by John Haining who has at least 10 model engine designs to his name, it mostly deals with 2" so may not be that relevant to what you are working on. There is just one chapter on boilers but the author does have a more detailed manual on boilers.

The book I find best for TE Construction is this one which deals with 3"-6".

I posted a link to this thread on what is probably the most active Model Traction Engine site when you first posted your progress as I thought people would be interested, there are a few comments hereon the boiler if you are interested. general oppinion is that it will be OK for 150psi but most would like a bit thicker plate and no lapped joint.

Jason


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## hammers-n-nails (Nov 4, 2009)

its been awhile so heres some new pics on what little visible progress has been made. the boiler just takes a long time, hes about got all the holes for the stays drilled. ive not got much to show, looking at pictures and sketches and trying to make something that looks exactally the same takes along time, some say im a perfectionist and that isnt helping helping my production any.

pics with comments below





















the magnetic base for the drill press burnt up so he built a channel iron base with a slot for a bolt to go through one of the stay holes until he can get a new base or fix the old one.






the socket for the ball on the bottom of the pedistal to rest in on the rotary table ready to be cut. i cant figure out how to cut an XZ arc with the dro so i switch the Y and Z cords, it works. 






the finished product it will fit partly inside a 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" X 1/4" square tube






part of the axle support after turning, the taper serves no function but thats how the original is so thats how i built it.






spliting it in the bandsaw, its tack welded to that piece of i beam, it worked suprisingly well






after splitting and welding back together of course
















my work so far and the original again for comparison, the socket block is just sitting there it will be pressed in when im satisfied with the rest


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## Deanofid (Nov 4, 2009)

It looks like you got a lot done to me! This is quite an undertaking. 
The boiler pedestal/steering block is looking good!

Dean


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## Jasonb (Nov 5, 2009)

Its comming along, can I ask what the small square hole in the side of the firebox is for?

Jason


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## hammers-n-nails (Nov 5, 2009)

the wood/coal boilers could be converted to burn straw, in a straw boiler there is a plate that starts at the lower part of the flue sheet and slopes upwards towards the back about 2/3-3/4 the length of the firebox so the gases had to travel farther from the fire until they entered the flues so that all the chaff and embers would be burned up before they got to the flues. in a dedicated straw boiler the plate is another waterleg, im not sure how a conversion was done. so that door is there so you can clean the top of that plate off. other than that i dont know that it really serves any pourpose, its just one more detail we decided to add, the old man says its a PITA to build so it probably wasnt really worth doing since it serves no function to us. do you not have straw burners over there?
ill try to get a pic of the page on straw boilers for you if you want.


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## Jasonb (Nov 6, 2009)

Most of our makers did the option of straw burners for the export market when their was a British Empire, as far as I know the straw burners were not used on the domestic market and very few woodburners. 

The straw burners had some form of feeded that pushed the straw into the firebox, from their I don't know what went on inside.

Jason


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## Jasonb (Nov 6, 2009)

This is the back end of a Fowler with straw burning feeder

http://vios1.rdg.ac.uk/olib/images/nof/fowler/photos/tr_fow_ph2_2/279.jpg

And the Chimney to suit

http://vios1.rdg.ac.uk/olib/images/nof/fowler/photos/tr_fow_ph2_2/278.jpg

Jason


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## enginebob (Nov 11, 2009)

So!? What happens next? 
EB


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## hammers-n-nails (Nov 24, 2009)

some new pics of the progress, nothing really noticable or notable, its pretty slow going at this stage.


















the boiler of course, there are going to be 17, 1 1/2"d x about 42" fire tubes, i think the fake rivits are going to look good.
notice the way he has it riged up with the saddle and the worm gear on the front so he can rotate it easily, its alot safer and easier than doing it by hand for sure






the hand hole covers














ive got the pedistal and axle support are getting real close, getting a nice smooth radius in all those tight corners is a real PITA, but if it was easy women and children would be doing it as they say. i might be trying to make it too good and making it alot harder than it has to be, i dont know.


well thats all for now, hopefully this will get more intresting as we get farther into it.


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## Deanofid (Nov 24, 2009)

Looks like a heckuva lot of work done, to me! The pedestal looks great. 
Thanks for the update on your project. It's nice to see it taking shape.

Dean


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 11, 2010)

i didnt realise it had been so long since the last update, several new parts to show. the old man has been makeing better progress than i have, hes been out of work for awhile.

dads progress first






corner brakets built and bolted on. bullgears, pinions and differential in place. bullgears are from an f-30 farmall tractor. differential and pinions are from a 620 john deere i think. by all apperances they mesh together perfectly, definatly good enough for this low of speeds.







the rear hubs so far, flanges started out as plates, there about 9" dia, the little 13" lathe could swing them ok but it was really beating it up taking the corners off so he ended up using the big one which was overkill by alot, i think hes decided that he needs another lathe between the 13" and the 36" that he has now.






here is one of the fron hubs in the old mans mill in the RT getting holes drilled for the spokes, 1/2"dia 32 per wheel.

now my progress























the fire door that i started yesterday and my progress up to this afternoon.






the side door to the firebox






the not quite finished pedistal and axel support siting on the boiler which is upside down in this photo.










a pic of the finished (finaly) pedistal and axel support. theres a couple more views on my photobucket.



well thats about it up to this point, this sure does seem like it takes alot longer than it should but progress is being made.


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## Deanofid (Jan 11, 2010)

I think you two fellows are making great progress. It's a big undertaking! The original builders had the benefit of a factory and foundry.
It's looking just grand. Your front axle assembly is a dead ringer for the original. Great work!

Dean


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 13, 2010)

these are from last night






















i think the old mans wheelsturned out real nice































and i got the firedoor done
does anyone know the purpose of the deal thats rivited to the back of the door and the 4 holes through the door?


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## Deanofid (Jan 13, 2010)

Still coming right along. The wheels look just great, and so does your fire door.

The riveted thing is to keep the door latch from spinning around so it doesn't catch on wood, etc., and so the operator doesn't have to fish around for it to re-latch the door.

The holes? Maybe just for draft, so the door doesn't smoke out the operator. Don't know for sure.

Dean


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 13, 2010)

i think you misunderstood me bud, on the full size engines theres another plate kind of a thing that the 2 big rivits are holding on the back of the door, i dont wonder but if its not to make an airspace for insulation so the door doesnt get so hot, but i didnt ever really look that close.


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## gbritnell (Jan 13, 2010)

You're making great progress on the engine. Fantastic work on the wheels. 
gbritnell


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## Deanofid (Jan 14, 2010)

Okay, I get it, bud. 
: )

Dean


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## Maryak (Jan 14, 2010)

hammers-n-nails  said:
			
		

> i think you misunderstood me bud, on the full size engines theres another plate kind of a thing that the 2 big rivits are holding on the back of the door, i dont wonder but if its not to make an airspace for insulation so the door doesnt get so hot, but i didnt ever really look that close.



I would agree, most probably for holding a fire brick for insulation - Nice BIG WHEELS. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Jasonb (Jan 14, 2010)

Its probably for a baffle plate, this was a plate spaced off the door to deflect some of the heat, I'll post a pic of the one on my model later as photobucket is down for maintanance.

EDIT photo here

Jason


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 17, 2010)

no new parts but we got to put what we got together, he still has to make the caps for the end of the axles to keep the wheels on and build the straps that connect the wheels and bullgears but other than that what you see is pretty much done.


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## cfellows (Jan 17, 2010)

Wow, very impressive!

Chuck


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## 4156df (Jan 18, 2010)

Very well done. Could you give us a few words on how you did the steam dome, particularly the dome and the flange where it meets the boiler?  I don't see how you're able to move and shape that much metal. 
Dennis


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## Deanofid (Jan 18, 2010)

It sure is coming together!
I'd like to know how you did the dome, too.

Dean


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## mu38&Bg# (Jan 18, 2010)

Would spokes in those types of wheels be put under tension prior to welding? Just a thought that popped into my head.


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 18, 2010)

the dome isnt what it appears, it was made starting with two square pieces of boiler plate that my cousin at the weling shop in town(a good guy to know for projects like this) bent into a semi circle with the break. the two halves where welded together and scribed to fit the curve of the barrel. the dome shaped cap is actually an 8" sch 80 pipe cap. after welding these pieces together and welding them to the rest of the boiler we(he had done everything else up to this piont) just took a piece of flat strap tacked it on the right side and started heating it up with the torch and bending and beating it around the dome, tack welding occasionally, and laped it over where we started. the flange around the dome and also on the throat sheet are just for looks the plates themselves are welded under them. the vertical lap was done by milling a plate long enough to go about 1/4 of the way around the dome on a taper from 1/4" to about 1/16" and bending it around the dome, so this piece is also non-structural. then he took and laid a big weld all around between the dome and flange and ground it to a radius, thus making a dome that appears to be made out of one piece but isnt.

diesel pilot- yes probably in full size practice they should be but this engine should weigh about 1/8 that of the full size engine and it had 3/4" spokes and this one has 1/2" so we got about 1/2 the strength holding up 1/8 the weight so i dont think its going anywhere, in case you where wondering why he didnt go 1/2 size i think its so he would only have to buy 1 die since the back wheels have 1", personally i would have made them 3/8" and bought 2 dies but i wasnt making them.


doesanyone know where to buy cleats for the back wheels, ive heard that some of them break easily


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 22, 2010)

more pics

as always the old man first






this is a bracket that supports the flywheel (right) end of the crankshaft as well as the idler between the crank pinion and the diferential ring gear. sorry he didnt take any pictures while putting it together, would just have been a bunch of plates tacked together though.
in this picture he is facing the surface that the crank bering bolts to, then he fliped it on the clamp jig he built and faced the surface that the idler bolts to so they would be exactally 90deg.










as for myself im starting on the crosshead guide but i guess i didnt get a picture so that will have to wait till tommarrow.


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## hammers-n-nails (Jan 24, 2010)

well i gess hes done with the bracket for now. hes moved on to steering gear. in case you dont know its done by rolling and unrolling chains around the shaft. the gears are from a cable hoist for stage equipment, there a little to big to be scale but there getting used.










i havent got much done this weekend. first thing saturday morining i bottomed out the cross slide on the lathe and broke the brass drive gear, again....., that took 3 hours to replace. i think im going to try and make some, i dont think that it would have to be prefect to work ok so i ground a cutter while the gear was out. then i laid the mill head over sideways and squared it up to drill bolt and dowell holes in the crosshead guide, only then realising that the closest i could drill to the table was about 8" above it. so i went back to the iron pile and found me some 8" H beam that i welded some gussets in and faced, i think they will work fine. measuring the four corners of each of them they are all +-.002".


the crosshead started as a seamless tube 5" ID 6"OD, i welded a piece of 1/2 X 1" strap around the end and built up behind it with the mig then turning it close and grinding it smooth to form a bell shape on the cylinder end. then i welded a plate in the end for the bolts to attach it to the cylinder.




















my riser blocks


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## Powder keg (Jan 24, 2010)

You guys are making great Progress!!! Thanks alot for sharing.


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## underdog (Oct 16, 2010)

H&N, I just joined the site and looking for some updates from your project. I may be inheritting a 1/2 scale Rumley tractor which my late neighbor was working on for many years. I am meeting with his son on Tuesday as the family would like for me to finish it up. Your images are VERY helpful to me at this point.


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## steamer (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh I'm digging this ...keep it coming! Nice Work!

Dave


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## underdog (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi everyone, Brian Anderson from Michigan. I've joined the site to find some information, pics and advise. You see I've obtained a project started many many years ago by a neighbor. I remember riding my bicycle to the neighbor's house to see what he was up too. He was ALWAYS in his small workshop and when I asked him what he was doing, I ALWAYS recieved the same response...."working on the steam engine". Funny thing was....where is this steam engine, never did see much of anything ???
A few years ago this family friend lost his life to a farming accident. I had bumped into his youngest boy a few times and I always asked about the project and he said it was just sitting in the corner of the barn. Lately the subject came up again and I found out the family was okay with me taking over the project. His boy seemed pretty excited that I had an interest in it and made it perfectly clear he wanted to see it completed. I thought for years it was a 1/2 scale, but just found out it's actually about a 7/16 scale. Are there any more threads on here simular to this one as they build such a project? I'm looking for any advise I can find. I'll have the parts here at my home soon and I can post up some pictures.


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## hammers-n-nails (Oct 29, 2010)

well brian welcome to the site. as you can see from my lack of posts since january i havent been working on this project much. work has been busy lately, cant complain there. we should be able to start up again shortly.

 im interested to learn more about the engine youve aquired, as you may or may not know everyone likes to see lots of pictures. what has been completed so far? what is the HP rating? i wonder what the reason is for the odd scale? you wont find many steam traction engine projects on this site definatly nothing on this scale, seems like most members on this site are running mini lathes and mills. another forum that i was led to is tractiontalkforum.com by jason b who has several posts on this thread, its a british site so their engines are built a little different but still very informative. what kind of equipment do you have or are planning to get. my dad has got some big machines compared to most home shops and sometimes they dont seem big enough but with a little imagination you can make due with less, ive seen alot of fair sized projects built on smaller machines.

i would be more than happy to help you with whatever i can, im just starting in this hobby but i can tell you what ive learned so far.


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## Jasonb (Oct 30, 2010)

I pointed Brian in this direction from Traction Talk and also suggested this site with a Baker Engine

http://www.steamsmith.com/

As you say in the UK we have quite a few 6" models but they do differ from your style of engine though we get the odd 4" Case and I've recently seen pictures of an Avery undermount thats under construction - model and full size part way down the page, click for more pics they are actually there.

Jason


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## underdog (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you do much for responding. I didn't want to hi-jack your thread, as soon as I get this project to my home, I'll start my own thread with images which I hope is this week. So far the boiler seems to be made, I know it's a one piece tube, it was donated and that was his starting point, thus the odd scale. The firebox is attached, the pressure dome on top was attached. It was dark in the barn when I looked at it, so I'll see it better when it arrives.
The outer rings were there for the wheels, no spokes nor hubs yet. He had a bunch of valves, water level gage, antique pressure gage, a bunch of bull gears, I'll have to sort it all out. I didn't see a front pedistal made, but his son thought it was laying around someplace along with the fire door, but we didn't seem to find it while he was showing me everything. HP rating, I have no idea, I have alot to learn. I did join those other sites as well, thanks for the links. As far as equipment goes, I had access to everything you can think of as I work in a tool & die shop up here in Michigan, cnc mills, brigdeports, grinders, welders, lathes, you name it we have it. I may purchase a Hurco mill for my garage, we are still negotiating a price. I have a friend that has a lathe that may be coming over as well, he's tired of paying storeage on it.



			
				hammers-n-nails  said:
			
		

> well brian welcome to the site. as you can see from my lack of posts since january i havent been working on this project much. work has been busy lately, cant complain there. we should be able to start up again shortly.
> 
> im interested to learn more about the engine youve aquired, as you may or may not know everyone likes to see lots of pictures. what has been completed so far? what is the HP rating? i wonder what the reason is for the odd scale? you wont find many steam traction engine projects on this site definatly nothing on this scale, seems like most members on this site are running mini lathes and mills. another forum that i was led to is tractiontalkforum.com by jason b who has several posts on this thread, its a british site so their engines are built a little different but still very informative. what kind of equipment do you have or are planning to get. my dad has got some big machines compared to most home shops and sometimes they dont seem big enough but with a little imagination you can make due with less, ive seen alot of fair sized projects built on smaller machines.
> 
> i would be more than happy to help you with whatever i can, im just starting in this hobby but i can tell you what ive learned so far.


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