# Newbie Lathe Choice



## matthew-s (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi - I'm very new here.  I've been reading as much as I can, but I still have a few questions.

I'd like to try my hand at building a few engines.  I'm initially interested in Steam, but I could see myself doing a Sterling and a Hit and Miss too.  I'm also attracted to the cast iron kits, as I really love the victorian / industrial era look of those.

It seems like the first thing to look at getting is a lathe. . . 

In the sub $1k category, it seems like the choices are Taig, Sherline and Micro Mark.

I recognize there are a few other choices, but I'd like to get a tool that works out of the box.  I have limited project time, and I'd rather not get a "pre-built kit" lathe, as I've seen some described.  I gather the MicroMark is not as kit-like as the Harbor Freight, and perhaps even Grizzly, but possibly not as accurate as the Taig and Sherline.

I find the choice particularly difficult between the Sherline and the MicroMark, as they are basically the same price.

My main question is, when it comes to choosing between these two classes of lathes (Taig and Sherline on one end, and the MicroMark on the other), how much am I really giving up with respect to the types of projects I can take on?

If  one was to get the riser blocks for the Taig and Sherline, can you basically work the same size projects as the MicroMark?  Or no?

My guess is the limiting factor is the flywheel sizes that I can work, which in turn limits the kits I can take on.  Is this the right way to look at it?

I hope I'm being clear.  I've seen general topics about these lathes here, but nothing along the lines of "the micro lathes will take you up to projects like "X", and the MicroMark will get you to projects like "Y""

Also - If I'm missing an option to the MicroMark in the <$1k / 7x class, let me know.

Thanks.


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## matthew-s (Apr 5, 2014)

Oh - and if matters my total shop space is limited to 8' x 12'.


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## sssfox (Apr 5, 2014)

Matthew,

I can't say I would recommend either of those as a first choice.

Even though the rated capacity is 7", the useful capacity is around 3" to 4". It's the tool post as well as the power of the motor that really sets the max capacity.  I think that if you buy a 7" lathe, you will regret it within six months to a year. 

I have  4", 6", 7" and 12" lathes and I use them all for different things.  My 12" is an old Atlas that belonged to my dad.

If I were in your shoes, I would start by looking for an old 9", 10" or 12" lathe on Craig's list.  Also remember that you will probably spend more on tooling for the lathe than you do on the lathe.  Often, depending on where you live, you can find a lathe that comes with enough tooling to get you started for under $1000, sometimes, well under $1000.

A light 12" lathe doesn't take up much more room than a 7" one.

Steve Fox


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## sssfox (Apr 5, 2014)

You should probably start looking for a small milling machine, too.

I can tell you from experience that you will never be completely happy with a milling attachment for a lathe.  They lack rigidity and have too many limitations.

There goes another $1000!


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 5, 2014)

Mathew:

Fist of all thanks for posting an introduction and separating this question from the intro. 

The Miro mark is likely not a bad choice in the sub 1K range. the other Obvious choice for a similar product is Littlemachineshop .com But I generally point folks on the east coast to MM and folks on the west coast to lms  for large items like a lathe or mill due to shipping costs. That is unless you are attending a ME show like cabin fever or NAMES.  

For you I suggest you hook up with the guys at  http://www.neme-s.org/
and before you rush off to place an order see if one of the NEMES guys can get  you to http://www.brothersmachinery.com/

I have traveled to the NEMES Show several times now they are a great group. 

If you have your heart set on kits then size is a little more important. An yes the size of the lathe limits the size of the flywheel .

My first lathe was a grizzly 7x  more mass and the ability to thread .

Tin


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## mikbul (Apr 5, 2014)

matthew-s said:


> Hi - I'm very new here. I've been reading as much as I can, but I still have a few questions.
> 
> I'd like to try my hand at building a few engines. I'm initially interested in Steam, but I could see myself doing a Sterling and a Hit and Miss too. I'm also attracted to the cast iron kits, as I really love the victorian / industrial era look of those.
> 
> ...


I had the Micromark 7X16 and it was a great lathe. It also comes in Three boxes so UPS instead of freight.
The motor is very powerful for a small lathe. I also got the premium tool package with it and I'm still using it on my SB1001.
Clean up wasn't as nearly as bad as most but get the 4" chuck for it some time. It also has a camlock tailstock which I miss on my current lathe.
I have some photos of prototypes I turned on it, I'll look them up.
Mikbul


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## mikbul (Apr 5, 2014)

Actually it was two boxes, That's a piece of 2" aluminum and some brass I turned shortly after getting it. That's the four inch chuck but after that for tubing I used the three inch on the inside of the tube.


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## Nerdz (Apr 5, 2014)

Hello!

I currently have the 7x16 lathe from Micromark. Before Buying it I'll give you the ups and downs of owning it.

The Good:

The lathe is pretty good. Ive made two engines so far on it, so it is reasonably accurate. I havent measured the run out on the 3 jaw. The lathe Cuts Aluminum Very well, and Im able to take deep cuts of over 20 thou, even though the manual says not to. Ive cut brass, W1 steel, and I have tried Stainless (304). 12L14 Cuts like butter. The inch markings are what sold me on this lathe. It was also very clean when I got it. If your bit gets stuck and grabs while doing parting operation, the lathe "sees" this and shuts down. This feature has probably saved my lathe quite a few times

The bad:

Dont expect the gibs to be adjusted right out of the box. I have to take the cross slide apart and actually lap it using some rubbing compound and brass-o. It took maybe 2 hrs. After the lapping process it ran like a champ. I also had to modify the "Zero Setting Dial" (or w/e it is) because they wouldnt work properly. I lapped the sides and also put a set screw in one. As of Right now, I can only fit up to a little bit over a 3'' piece of aluminum and have my tool get to it. Not much of a limit.

My Advice: If this is what you can afford then get it. Get a 4 Jaw ASAP. Atleast you can make Square Parts. Then get a QCTP. Or get that first.


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## mikbul (Apr 5, 2014)

Nerdz said:


> Hello!
> 
> I currently have the 7x16 lathe from Micromark. Before Buying it I'll give you the ups and downs of owning it.
> 
> ...


 
I agree about the 4 jaw though I got a 4" and the Tormach OXA QCTP. I got the QCTP first. Here's a picture of it, don't mind the aluminum, I was running way too slow with carbide.


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## aonemarine (Apr 5, 2014)

Im not familiar with any of the lathes your looking at, but if it were me I would be surfing craigslist for a SouthBend 9" or 10K with a quick change gear box. But then again maybe im just partial to mine....


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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

sssfox said:


> Matthew,
> 
> I can't say I would recommend either of those as a first choice.
> 
> ...




Thanks. Some of those get big fast though.  Whatever I get I need to get it down to the basement without a crew of millwrights 



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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> Mathew:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks. I did actually pop into name-s meeting this month. It was not an organized meeting this time, so it was hard to tell who was in charge and there was no natural way to star taking questions.  I'll probably visits another meeting though. 

Grizzly does seem to have a new 8x.  For approachable money. How does that brand stack up in the "ready to use" category?


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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

Nerdz said:


> Hello!
> 
> I currently have the 7x16 lathe from Micromark. Before Buying it I'll give you the ups and downs of owning it.
> 
> ...




Thanks.  Very helpful. Two follow ups. 

I see lots of references related to finishing the gibs on these machines. How diddly is that?  Is it an obvious process?

Second. What kind / size engines are you building on this machine?



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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

Not to answer for NERDZ but lapping the gibbs is easy. You have to take it apart to clean it anyway so before assembly take care of it. I think I have some photos of disassembly of my 8K that would be helpful, It's not a lot of disassembly that you have to do and you get to know the machine in the process. You can put off messing with the gibbs also, do it anytime. It will give you a tighter and smoother sliding dovetail.
Mikbul


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi mattew s
Here are those photos of my 8K coming apart and the 7X16 will be almost identical.
The crosslide and compound slide are slid off the carriage


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

Carriage and crosslide upside down with crosslide most of the way out of Carriage. You can see the gib on the right side, the long thin piece of metal and the adjusting screws & lock nuts outside the crosslide.


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

A photo looking the other way and gib is on left a one adjusting screw visible. In the back are the Carriage adjusters


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

Crosslide with compound slide still on top with gib adjusters visible. Bare bed way with apron supported but laying down. On the 8K the apron was spotless so no need to take it off. After I slid the Apron to the end for support. The 7X16 Apron needs to be cleaned and it will silde off after the lead screw pillow block is removed. Note: On re-assembly leave pillow block loose to last step, run carriage down to the pillow block, tighten the half nut lever then tighten the pillow block.


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

Hope this was helpful
Mikbul


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 6, 2014)

Decisions decisions. 

IMHO  if I had to choose a lathe from the import market and had about 1300 limit I would put my money on the grizzly go602 10 x 22 . 

same  actually less money than the new 8 x 16 but it is twice the lathe. 
the 768 you need to switch gears for each threading task. the  10x  has more power more swing ... the 10 x includes a 4" chuck the 8X does not. 

The only real advantages I see with the 8 x is infinite variable speed and the tach. . While nice to me not enough reason to give up all the advantages found on the 10" 

The 10" you will likely have to take as much off as you can to get in basement. 
But where there is a will there is a way. 
I suggest you download the manual for each lathe you are considering and read them . also carefully read the accessory and specifications list. 


the 8" has the chuck mounted with studs a pain to change the 10" has a threaded spindle nose easier to change. .....

Tin


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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> Decisions decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Indeed.  Now we  approach the budget I had mind for lathe + mill. 

By the way, why is there seemingly more lathe talk when compared to mill talk?   Fewer choices?   I take it that going with the Micromark or Little Machine Shop options is plenty for most needs?



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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm not pushing the 7X16 on him, just showing what needs to be done no matter what he buys. If he buys a used S/B he'll have to lighten it up to go down the stairs too. Same with grizzly or whatever. If he's doing any threading better get a gearbox.


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## mikbul (Apr 6, 2014)

matthew-s said:


> Indeed. Now we approach the budget I had mind for lathe + mill.
> 
> By the way, why is there seemingly more lathe talk when compared to mill talk? Fewer choices? I take it that going with the Micromark or Little Machine Shop options is plenty for most needs?
> 
> ...


 
I would think the LMS solid column a better choice for rigidity. As for big enough to do what these guys do they will have to answer that.


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## sssfox (Apr 6, 2014)

I have one of these:

http://www.lathemaster.com/Lathemaster LM25L Milling Machine.htm

I did a lot of research and this one has 19-1/2"  travel and an R-8 spindle.  I thought both were important and not many of the small machines have that much travel.  They are out of stock right now.

I've had mine for about two years and it has done everything I have asked.  I bought the power feed attachment and I'm glad I did.

As with the lathe, budget about as much for tooling as you do for the
tool.

Their lathes look good, too, but I don't have any experience with them. 

Steve Fox


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 6, 2014)

> Indeed. Now we approach the budget I had mind for lathe + mill.
> 
> By the way, why is there seemingly more lathe talk when compared to mill talk? Fewer choices? I take it that going with the Micromark or Little Machine Shop options is plenty for most needs?




In your original post I saw lathe so that is why we are talking lathe. 

Many in this hobby including myself, started with the basic sieg  7 x 10 lathe and companion x-2 mill. The MM and LMS machines are a definite improvement over the originals. 

There are guys that buy sherline machines love them and stay with them for years. there are guys that buy the Mini mill and mini lathe and trade up others start with the mini and  buy bigger machines and keep the minis. There are guys that have bigger machines and buy the mini machines for a inside winter shop. 
The real advantage of the mini mill and lathe is the price is low enough to get it into the shop and start learning and machining.  But IMHO in the long run feature for feature lb for pound accessory for accessory they are not that great a value. 

I also realize it is a hard sell to come up with 3-4 K to set up shop. A lot of money for most of us to put out in one shot or a short period of time. 

And bottom line your dime your choice you need to do what is right for you. 
Tin


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## sssfox (Apr 6, 2014)

Tin,

I think he means in general, not specifically this thread.

He is correct, I hardly ever see a question asked about which mill to buy and I see one about which lathe every two or three weeks.  I think it is because there aren't a lot of mill choices.  They go from mini mill to bridgeport rather quickly.


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 6, 2014)

Not number of choices if you look at grizzly there are about 14 lathes before you get to full industrial size and about 28 mills to choose from, before one gets to Bridgeport size.  

I think it is just most people start with a Lathe. 
Tin


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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

sssfox said:


> Tin,
> 
> I think he means in general, not specifically this thread.



Correct.  That is what I meant. 



sssfox said:


> I think it is because there aren't a lot of mill choices.  They go from mini mill to bridgeport rather quickly.




This is what I suspected.  That It's a jump from mini-mill to a Bridgeport, or that the minis can support the majority of the modeling envelop, whereas it sounds like moving up in lathes provides more return, even to modelers.  Again just my suspicion.  


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 6, 2014)

Again while many start with the Mini aka x2 the x3 is also very popular and liked much more capable and now the x 4 and U1 are available. Have not heard much about the x4 and the U1 is more of a horizontal mill .



There are at least 5 Sizes of lathe and mill to choose from for the hobbyist. ranging from nano to micro to mini to x3 mill  /10" lathe ..... 

It feels like you have decided on the mni lathe /mill and that is fine. Just trying to show options. just be sure they will do the kits you want . But fear not yo can always get bar stock plans and scale to the machine you own. 
Tin


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## Sshire (Apr 6, 2014)

What is it about "don't want a pre-built kit" that is not clear. 
First point: I've been actively searching Craigslist and local machine dealers for a Heavy 10 that is on good shape. No such animal. I wouldn't suggest a 20,30 or 40 year old lathe to a first-timer. That's more of a project than a Harbor Freight lathe. My Bridgeport was in pretty good shape when I got it, but still had work for me to do. 
Secondly, I think he wants to build engines. Not build a lathe. 
Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but think back to your first days machining and then see if a used, older lathe is a good idea 


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## matthew-s (Apr 6, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> It feels like you have decided on the mni lathe /mill and that is fine.
> 
> Tin




I have not decided.  I'm trying to keep an open mind. I appreciate the feedback.  For example, I had not heard of lathe master, and that is an interesting option. 

I have some time.   I moved recently, and I have some work to do to get the shop setup, so I'll use that time to do research.  The plan is to spend the summer doing that so it's ready for winter building season. 

Regardless , the gentleman that said I want to build engines rather than lathes is correct. 


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 11, 2014)

Thanks. I did actually pop into name-s meeting this month. It was not an organized meeting this time, so it was hard to tell who was in charge and there was no natural way to star taking questions. I'll probably visits another meeting though.



PM me contact info I  will get it to a NEMES member






tin


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## matthew-s (Apr 11, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> PM me contact info I  will get it to a NEMES member
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks.  I actually did exchange email before the meeting with one of the leaders.  He was very responsive. I showed up late, and was not sure who to approach.  It was more of a social gathering than a real meeting this last time due to a last minute change. 

I'll take up your offer if I can't make heads or tails of the next meeting. 


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 12, 2014)

Good enough .Talk to norm Jones .Also one of the guys in the club has a sherline that is ready to go . I can get you a name if you like.
Tin


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## matthew-s (Apr 13, 2014)

I may be interested in the Sherline.  Could be a relatively painless way to try the hobby on for size?  

Please PM me info, or I could PM you if you'd prefer.  Thanks.  


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## brian13b (Apr 20, 2014)

thats nice


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## naughtimonki (Apr 20, 2014)

HI, I have a Sieg X2 mill and a Sieg AL-60 lathe.  They have both been a constant source of frustration and disappointment.  Do not plan on machining mild steel of harder as they will fail on you, break tools and produce por quality work.  I agree with one other reply, dont waste your time with a lathe mill combo.  If you do buy a mini mill get it as a stand alone and definetly do the belt conversion.  If you can afford the X3 Super you will be much better off.
As suggested by otheres there are a lot of older industrial lathes available 2nd hand that are around a 1 metre bed length and are made of solid castings.  Definitely hold out for one.
DO NOT BUY the SIEG.  They are seriously a waste of money and source of ongoing disappointment.


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## matthew-s (Apr 20, 2014)

naughtimonki said:


> DO NOT BUY the SIEG.  They are seriously a waste of money and source of ongoing disappointment.




I'm curious. Do you put all SIEG machines in the same category?  Including those from little machine shop, or I guess even Grizzly?

Earlier you note the Super x3 would be good, but then state the "do not buy" on SIEG so I'm trying to clarify.

Thanks.  






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## Tin Falcon (Apr 22, 2014)

Well Mathew Mr monki's comments do  seem a a bit confusing. 

I expect his frustration is heartfelt and honest. 

I do wonder though a bit of a broad statement that all sieg products are junk. 

I have several sieg machines and while there are better products usually the price is higher. 
Also while we have all heard of great deals and even fee machines those are IMHO  few and far between. 

Also we know little of mr monki his first and only post is a rant. HMMM.
Tin


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## hanermo (Apr 23, 2014)

Mass.

Heavier is better. As much as you can afford.

The ONLY thing you cannot later cheaply and easily upgrade, is rigidity, which depends on mass.

About 2005, I spent about 200 hours and 250 making a good, slid, rigid, stiff accurate mount for my 7x lathe.

Lathe cost 450 ish. 40 kg or so.
Mount cost 250  in bits and pieces. 150 kg or so.

Result was about 9.5 / 10 in results, ie it works very very well, and helps a lot.
I would have been much better off buying an 8x lathe (about 110 kg), for about 690.

Best benefit of bigger lathe, is you dont need to re-buy all the qctp tooling again, later on..


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## scienceaddict (Apr 23, 2014)

matthew-s said:


> I have not decided.  I'm trying to keep an open mind. I appreciate the feedback.  For example, I had not heard of lathe master, and that is an interesting option.
> 
> I have some time.   I moved recently, and I have some work to do to get the shop setup, so I'll use that time to do research.  The plan is to spend the summer doing that so it's ready for winter building season.
> 
> ...




One option for a <1k lathe might be to check if there are any industrial surplus warehouses near you. By me there's HGR surplus, in Cleveland, and I've seen a number of nice lathes go by from there. On a different note, you might want to look into getting a milling adapter for whatever lathe you get. My dad has a book which describes how with only a lathe you can make everything else for the shop, so for the extra versatility, I think it's a worthy investment.


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## naughtimonki (Apr 23, 2014)

I guess if you are only making toys from aluminium a SEIG will suffice, but if you plan on machining steel of any diametre over 20mm  you will rue the day you ever bought a SEIG.  I spend more time rebuilding these pieces of junk than I do getting any work done.  No one nor nay litriture warns of the issues that arise if you try working in steel on these machines.  They simply lack any rigity, and twist like a reed in the wind.  This makes achieving any finish, repeatability or accuracy vertually impossible.  ANd before anyone says it, yes I am working well within the limits of what would be reasonable for a machine of this size.  
I have a colleague who has the X3 and even he reportds that he has issues working in steel but not to the degree I expereince on the HM10.  The AL-60 (C6) is a little more forgiving but once you exceed diametres of 20-30mm the inadiquacies begin to appear.  So be warned.  If you intend working in steel avoid these machines at all costs.



matthew-s said:


> I'm curious. Do you put all SIEG machines in the same category?  Including those from little machine shop, or I guess even Grizzly?
> 
> Earlier you note the Super x3 would be good, but then state the "do not buy" on SIEG so I'm trying to clarify.
> 
> ...


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## barnesrickw (Apr 23, 2014)

I love making toys on my little lathe.  Exactly why I bought it.  Have yet to rue.


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## Shawn (Apr 24, 2014)

Not to start anything but I cut mild steel on myX2 and have never had a problem. What does the size of material have too do with the cutting capability of the mill? Other than work envelope of course. My mill is the tilting column version with the smaller motor, I think the Little Machine Shop mill (solid column, bigger motor) would be a great choice for a mill in that size range. 

Shawn


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## hanermo (Apr 24, 2014)

Shawn, naythtimonkey, and me are ALL right.

If you want to make one, single, piece, for personal reasons, the very lightweight machines will work ok.

I made a flat disc (chuck backplate) in cast iron on a 7x lathe.
Big ie 125 mm in diameter.
To less than 0.01 mm error, and 0.01 mm TIR.

It is doable.
BUT..
The lathe is not capable of it in terms of tooling, setup, carriage, gibs, torque or power.

It took 3 hours to do. About the same in setup and whatsthis.
This is a 15 min job on my 12x light industrial lathe.
12x difference.


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## barnesrickw (Apr 25, 2014)

hanermo said:


> Shawn, naythtimonkey, and me are ALL right.
> 
> If you want to make one, single, piece, for personal reasons, the very lightweight machines will work ok.





Does that mean the lathe will only make one part, or the lathe can't make parts with repeatable accuracy?  



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## TimTaylor (Apr 25, 2014)

I think what he's saying is that the smaller machines don't have enough power to cut as aggressively as a larger machine, which should be obvious. 

That said, the smaller machines can certainly can make accurate parts within their size envelope as long as you limit the cutting forces, it's just going to take longer per part. Not a big deal for one or two parts, but could be huge if you're doing a bunch of them.


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## barnesrickw (Apr 26, 2014)

I enjoy the process more than the product I guess, so speed doesn't concern me as much.  I can see your point if you needed to make a bunch-o-something.  I also started with zero experience, and am still learning.  I think for me, my Taig is the right size.  


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