# DIES  HSS or Carbon Steel



## DLM (May 15, 2012)

I have a china 2-56 HSS die that is cutting under size. i would like to get away from china junk. Where is a reasonable place to buy us made dies. What is better for small dies HSS or carbon steel? This die used to work ok but for some reason it is cutting under size, i have try ed to adjust it but that don't seem to help. 

Thanks Don In Pueblo Co.


----------



## steamer (May 15, 2012)

I always buy the best HSS dies I can afford.  

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

amoungst others

Dave


----------



## gbritnell (May 16, 2012)

Hi Don,
 As far as cutting undersize I would have to assume that it was always cutting that way unless the adjusting screw was turned. I had mentioned in another thread about the only way I have found to turn the adjusting screws on these small dies because the screws are so small. I put the die in my small vise and tap a small screwdriver into the slot, just a tiny amount to expand the die, then the screw can be turned. I make up a threaded plug to check my adjustments. 

 Now onto the matter of junk dies!

 The only dies I could find in th 0-80 size were imports, no, lets say Chinese. I wasn't having much luck with them and during the course of a conversation with a buddy of mine, who has a machine shop, I mentioned the lack of quality in these small dies and that I couldn't find domestic dies in that size. He said he would call his supplier and see what they could find. His supplier said yes that he could get an American made 0-80 die, supposedly in high speed steel and adjustable but the price would be $23.00. I told him to order it and that I would pay the money because I was fed up with the 'other' tools. I received it the next day and was anxious to see how it worked. I turned up a piece of stock, mounted the die in my little knurled holder and proceeded to make some threads, at least I tried to make some threads. No matter how I tried I couldn't get the die to start. I took my magnifier out and had a look at the start side of the die and couldn't believe my eyes. It was like the threads were offset to the pilot hole so that one flute of the die had almost no threads. I called up my buddy who in turn called up his supplier who said no problem he would take it back and had something else. 
The something else is an OSG die that doesn't have HS marked on it and is non adjustable, and yes it was still expensive. It will cut threads but the fit is nothing to write home about. 

 I had written about this situation on another forum and received many answers about where to purchase 'good' dies. In the distant past a person could get dies from Japan, Poland and Israel that worked quite well but it seems like they don't even make them any longer. 

 Most suppliers are gracious enough that they will exchange or refund for poor tooling but personally I'm tired of testing the lack of quality control from the import suppliers, and I might add, domestic suppliers. 

 I have some very old American made dies (30 years old) that still cut better than what can be purchased today. I have tried Enco, MSC, Travers and several others with about the same luck so if you find one please let me know. 

gbritnell


----------



## Mainer (May 16, 2012)

You might try McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-dies/=hk3ueu

A HSS 0-80 die is $50.61, so one would hope it was good.


There is also J.I.Morris: http://www.jimorrisco.com/accessory-tools/threading-dies.html


----------



## mu38&Bg# (May 16, 2012)

What are dies used for outside of manual operations? Seeing how so much is produced on CNC these days, is it any surprise they are disappearing?


----------



## idahoan (May 16, 2012)

I have had really good luck with the OSG split adjustable HSS Dies. 

I purchased a Greenfield 3mm die for a special job one time and it was a piece of junk. Unless they have changed OSG is made in Japan and right up there with the other top tool manufactures.

I guess every one lets a bad one slip through once and a while. Reminds me a while back I was looking the tap drawer at work one day and something caught my eye; it was a spiral point tap with no threads. Now how did that one get by the QC department?

Dave


----------



## Mainer (May 16, 2012)

I think you're right about manual dies disappearing. If not generated via CNC, threads are rolled, or cut with an automatic die head.

And who needs to cut threads, anyway? Nobody makes their own screws and bolts anymore, except us weirdos.


----------



## ShopShoe (May 17, 2012)

Slight Diversion Coming -- Philosophical Ramblings

This just gets me thinking that maybe this has to do with metric being the world standard. Any thoughts as to whether manual taps and dies in metric are being made to a higher standard by reputable manufacturers around the world. 

No, I don't think I'll be a renegade and only use metric, but I do use both systems and it doesn't scare me.


----------



## Maryak (May 17, 2012)

As most of you know, Australia has a very small manufacturing sector which continues to get smaller. The exception to the rule is a company called Sutton Tools.

www.sutton.com.au/

I have no affiliation with the company; and their products, which IMHO are amongst the best in the world, are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

With our high labour costs and small manufacturing base, most of their output is exported and I doubt they could compete if they did not offer high quality.

So................if you are in need of any sort of tap or die and you have deep pockets, Sutton will make you a set to order. 

They made me 10mm x 0.5mm tap and die set used to make a series of special jigs. This one off was $AU434 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## modelman1838 (May 17, 2012)

I see that Tracy Tools the tap and die specialist in Devon in the UK will now ship to anywhere in the world, I allways buy from them. www.tracytools.com
 Hugh


----------



## steamer (May 17, 2012)

Actually, I've had good luck with OSG also.

I've bought quite a few dies from Victor Machinery...other than they needed sizing ( lots of 40 pitch dies)
so that the matching tap and die fit....they cut fine for me.

They also have all kinds of bizarro ones in weird pitches and sizes and of course left hand thread too.

www.victornet.net

Dave


----------



## lensman57 (May 19, 2012)

DLM  said:
			
		

> I have a china 2-56 HSS die that is cutting under size. i would like to get away from china junk. Where is a reasonable place to buy us made dies. What is better for small dies HSS or carbon steel? This die used to work ok but for some reason it is cutting under size, i have try ed to adjust it but that don't seem to help.
> 
> Thanks Don In Pueblo Co.



HI,

Today I tried to cut an M3 thread on to a 12 mm lenght of silver steel. The Chinese made carbon steel die would not even mark the steel. The die is not old and I couldn't have used it a lot as I mainly make model engines with BA threads. I eventually found a Uk made hss M3 die in my stuff, I think it is made by Apex but not sure, the die cut the steel like butter . I guess with taps and dies you get what you pay for.

Regards,

A.G


----------



## Mosey (May 19, 2012)

What are the relative accuracies of threads cut with dies versus single point on the lathe?


----------



## edtherom (May 19, 2012)

Aren't carbon steel taps and dies usually cut rather than ground?


----------



## lensman57 (May 20, 2012)

Mosey  said:
			
		

> What are the relative accuracies of threads cut with dies versus single point on the lathe?



Hi,

In the hands of a novice like myself, a good quality die is probably more accurate than single point threading for small diameter stock, but then again it all depends on the skill of the operator I guess.

Regards,

A.G

.


----------



## Blogwitch (May 20, 2012)

Where single point threading usually fails is people don't normally grind the correct thread form for the root (I am truly guilty of that as well).

If you can, it is always preferable to cut say to 75% depth with single point, then use a die to finish off.

Doing it that way ensures that the thread is perfectly concentric to the rod, but also of the correct thread form, with curved roots and tips.

I am soon to start using a tool that John Stevenson came up with that is used with a swing up toolholder. That is using one of the dies out of an auto die head and fixing it to the front of the turning tool. That way you not only single (or 5 off) point but also put the correct thread form on at the same time.

It only cost me twenty pounds to buy a full set of metric and imperial thread forms, so not an expensive operation at all.


John


----------



## JohnT (Dec 1, 2012)

John  
I've read several threads about the aformentioned multi point swing up tool (also the single point version of yours), and I just bought 6 sets of dies: 40, 32, 28 24 20, 18 tpi. I don't quite see how you construct the the tool holder. In looking at the die it appears as though it is meant to cut initially from the right hand side of the die. If you look at the photo you see that pencil is pointing to the edge I'm talking about. This seems to indicate that if I mount the die facing upward on the tool holder as shown in the photo it would start it's cut from the left hand edge. Wouldn't this be the wrong way to go about it? I puzzled as to how it should work.


----------



## Blogwitch (Feb 17, 2015)

As much as I would like to answer your question, at this time I can't. I am overloaded with shop work, and that mod is way down the list, I can't even find the threading heads as they are most probably buried under a ton of other stuff parked outside my shop.
I will get around to it eventually, but don't hold your breath.

Sorry

John


----------



## gus (Feb 18, 2015)

A machinist friend in China gave me a very good set of metric dies and taps in 2004 and still good today. However I gone over to buying SKC,Japan Dies and Taps which cost a bit more than M.I.C. Triangle costly.With Silver Steel, its best to anneal before threading with dies. You may have to skim o.d. a wee bit to get 75/85% thread. With brass rods,I would make a deep chamfer to help die engage and thread on. With Mild steel and brass,I use Tapmatic Tapping Fluid which makes tapping and die threading easier and good threads.


----------



## Charles Lamont (Feb 18, 2015)

JohnT said:


> In looking at the die it appears as though it is meant to cut initially from the right hand side of the die. If you look at the photo you see that pencil is pointing to the edge I'm talking about. This seems to indicate that if I mount the die facing upward on the tool holder as shown in the photo it would start it's cut from the left hand edge. Wouldn't this be the wrong way to go about it? I puzzled as to how it should work.


This is a diehead cutter. Its original used was to be mounted in a (Coventry) diehead as one of 3 or 4 cutters in the head. As I understand it, only the first teeth on the right do the cutting. The teeth further across are too high to cut and are intended to guide the job and feed the head forward onto it, or something like that.


----------



## 44-henry (Feb 18, 2015)

One thing I have learned is that a good quality tap whether it is made of HSS or Carbon Steel generally work fine. I do prefer taps made from plain old carbon steel simply because you can often shatter them if they break off in a hole, with HSS you either have to be ingenious and figure a way to fish them out, or you are left with the prospect of either grinding or burning them out (EDM), or starting over.


----------



## Ozwes007 (Feb 18, 2015)

The idea between grades of steel used in Taps, dies, drills and machine tools is predominately what they can cut. Normal medium-high carbon steels are good to about HRC(Rockwell) 20-25 , while your HSS without Cobalt (T1,M2 grades) used in general run of the mill taps , dies and drills is good to about HRC 62 (50 HRC is around cheap Chinese needle roller cages) , then from there you go,to 5% and 8% Cobalt HSS (M35,M42)which doesn't soften when you heat it up while grinding it(even to cherry red), and this is what most better quality HSS Tool steel used in lathe cutting bits and milling cutters is. Also remember, a high carbon steel cutting tool will give a better and more accurate finish then HSS, which gives a better finish and accuracy then Carbides! Not talking about looks btw.


----------

