# Pewter



## Canyonman (Dec 24, 2020)

Would cast pewter be suitable for engine castings Steam and IC? 
Thanks Ken


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## Longboy (Dec 24, 2020)

You see pewter as a metal for jewelry, cast figurines and utensils. Soft metal. Unlikely suitable for machining and drilling.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 25, 2020)

Longboy said:


> You see pewter as a metal for jewelry, cast figurines and utensils. Soft metal. Unlikely suitable for machining and drilling.



I'd love a supply of pewter. It's essentially tin(98%) and melts and casts accurately.
With a sufficiently good wall thickness, it can save hours of machining harder metals but the 
cost is perhaps £50 retail after VAT and other taxes.
Its a bit like whisky which should be the same price as sausage i.e 6 Pence a skinful.
I'll drink to that
Happy Christmas


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## Richard Hed (Dec 26, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> I'd love a supply of pewter. It's essentially tin(98%) and melts and casts accurately.
> With a sufficiently good wall thickness, it can save hours of machining harder metals but the
> cost is perhaps £50 retail after VAT and other taxes.
> Its a bit like whisky which should be the same price as sausage i.e 6 Pence a skinful.
> ...


can you alloy pewter and alu?


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## The_reach (Dec 26, 2020)

I have a lump of tin bar 50mm ish diameter, never tired cutting it or indeed used it for anything


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## goldstar31 (Dec 26, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> can you alloy pewter and alu?



 The research  into aluminium and its alloys was published some 120 years ago .  It and presumably later deliberations  seems worth examining.


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## MRA (Dec 26, 2020)

I bought some Pewter a little while ago, as it was easier to find and cheaper than tin.  The stuff I found was about 90% tin, 10% lead.  Used as the 'tin' part of 90:10 general purpose bronze, that should leave me with about 1% lead, which seems to be a figure which crops up in old books amongst the lists of alloys used for this, that and the other.  After all I cast things out of old plumbing fittings too, where I don't know what's in it, and it seems to go OK.


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## abby (Dec 26, 2020)

Modern pewter contains no lead , it has been banned by public health authorities , rather like lead in petrol and cadmium in silver solder.
One theory for the fall of the Roman empire is that the leaders were sent mad by lead ingested from their pewter tableware.
Aluminium and tin can be alloyed to form a  metal suitable for bearings but I haven't come across any other use for such an alloy.
I used to run a business reclaiming tin from tinplate scrap by reverse electrolysis. We produced around 1000kg per year of tin at around 99.75% purity.
I still have a little stock if you require some Norman.
Dan.


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## Shopgeezer (Dec 26, 2020)

So what is alloyed with the tin these days to make pewter?  Or is pewter effectively extinct?

There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic. The tin can had just been invented and many were taken as stores on the ships. There was apparently high levels of lead in the solder used to make the cans. Examination of tins discarded in rubbish heaps on the shore showed great gouts of solder sticking into the inside of the cans. It is thought that food stored for a year in these tins would have been contaminated with lead from the solder and this contributed to the strange decisions that seemed to be made by the leaders of the expedition.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 26, 2020)

abby said:


> I still have a little stock if you require some Norman.
> Dan.


Thanks Dan but 'No'
I think that my family would have epileptic fits.  Now what i would like is to separate  silver and mercury from dental amalgam.  There is a bit of gold alloyed with platinum still lying about. Stuff from my late wife's student days in a happier world.
I was talking earlier to an oldish mate who still has his 64 year old Myford ML7 and he hinted that my son's Lotus  is partly covered in gold leaf. Whatever next?


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## goldstar31 (Dec 26, 2020)

Regarding the franklin Expedition and - well- 70 or so years ago, terne plate was  actually tinned rather than leaded.   I recall having 'friendly' discussion  with the chief or a chief buyer of a VERY large    
can firm.  At that point, steel was tinned with tin either by dipping or by electrolysis but once the tinplate was tinned,  it was printed and for certain  contents., much research went into the coating INSIDE the tin/can. One vegetable comes to mind which had to specially lacquered was  processed peas.  
Digressing but still keeping the metal theme, carbon dioxide- presumably as an acid and along with fruit acids rather than a gas could perforate aluminium. 
Above all, it's very big subject  and cannot be dismissed in a few glib sentences. It goes perhaps not monopolies but certainly  oligopolies.


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## Vietti (Dec 26, 2020)

Dont overlook the various zinc alloys.  I've used ZAMAC with good result.  Casts at low temp, nearly as strong as cast iron, great bearing material etc.  I've used it to cast magneto bodies in aluminum sectional molds.  There is a good discussion of this process in MEB magazine.

I think it would be good for casting engine blocks etc as long as weight is not a factor.

John


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## abby (Dec 26, 2020)

Pewter is now tin with a small zinc content.
Many years ago I heard of a gent who made his living by collecting the square cans used for tinned ham ( thats ham in tins not coated with tin ).
He simply burned them in a wood fire and collected the solder that ran off.
How much silver amalgam do you have Norm ? reclaiming the precious content is not difficult. 
You can PM if you prefer.
Dan.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 26, 2020)

Hi Dan
              The place has  been in virtual lockdown since mid Feb  but if there is something that  is published, I'd be pleased to receie it

Many Thanks

N


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## Canyonman (Dec 26, 2020)

Great on the History Guys!!! Very interesting.
So, so far I gather it's a maybe?? I  was thinking it would work for Steam and Sterling engines but would be questionable for IC engines.
Where might I source ZAMAK??
My problem with my own cast AL ingots is that they are very porous and machine poorly (gummy). It was all cast from AL scrap i.e. screen door frames, cans, small statues, utensils, etc. Can I re-melt with another metal to alloy?  I saw tin mentioned above.  Also I have read about "De-gassing?     It seems like this might be in the wrong spot to continue, if so please advise.
Ken


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## Richard Carlstedt (Dec 26, 2020)

Shopgeezer said:


> .............................................There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic. The tin can had just been invented and many were taken as stores on the ships. There was apparently high levels of lead in the solder used to make the cans. Examination of tins discarded in rubbish heaps on the shore showed great gouts of solder sticking into the inside of the cans. It is thought that food stored for a year in these tins would have been contaminated with lead from the solder and this contributed to the strange decisions that seemed to be made by the leaders of the expedition.


I spent my very early career in a can plant and have a few comments . Yes, Tin Cans have been used for over 180 years. The "Side Seam "  and the lids (called "ends")were hand soldered with 2/98  (Tin/Lead %) solder  ( `612 F temp) and many times the insides had lumps of solder. Even when done by automation, the problem persisted.  Food absorbed the lead and in the 1950-60's Japan led the battle to remove Lead from cans . . This led to the use of pure Tin solder in the 1970's by some can makers, but pure tin solder will crack after a period of time ( 2 yrs) and expose the contents to atmosphere ( spoilage). This led to the Welded 3 piece can ( 1 body & 2 ends) and that then became the 2 piece can where the steel body is drawn over a mandrel ( Technology learned from Aluminum beer cans )
Soldered cans were very susceptible to high acid foods as the acid absorbed the lead. Can coatings have made amazing progress in protecting our food integrity .
Rich


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## Richard Carlstedt (Dec 26, 2020)

Canyonman 
try McMaster Carr








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				



Not sure which Zamak alloy that is , but you can check it out 
Rich


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## goldstar31 (Dec 27, 2020)

Also I have read about "De-gassing?     It seems like this might be in the wrong spot to continue, if so please advise.
Ken
[/QUOTE]

But "Google' is your friend. I never knew what went into to these tablets.

I know now. i may incur the wrath of all and sundry being 90+- but as I said--  Google is your friend
In the good or bad old days, there were fluxes for iron and steel.  I have now an associate who used to be a member here and he is now selling the stuff as jewellery.
He also offered me a couple of alpaca goats for free, but that is quite another story .


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## cobra (Dec 27, 2020)

Shopgeezer said:


> So what is alloyed with the tin these days to make pewter?  Or is pewter effectively extinct?
> 
> There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic. The tin can had just been invented and many were taken as stores on the ships. There was apparently high levels of lead in the solder used to make the cans. Examination of tins discarded in rubbish heaps on the shore showed great gouts of solder sticking into the inside of the cans. It is thought that food stored for a year in these tins would have been contaminated with lead from the solder and this contributed to the strange decisions that seemed to be made by the leaders of the expedition.



Modern Pewter is tin (91%), Antimony (7.5%), and Copper (1.5%)


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## L98fiero (Dec 27, 2020)

Shopgeezer said:


> There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic.


Apparently that wasn't more of a problem for them than pretty much everyone in Britain, high levels of lead were found in just about everyone at the time. Lead Poisoning Wasn't a Major Factor in the Mysterious Demise of the Franklin Expedition


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## goldstar31 (Dec 27, 2020)

I was brought up on lead piping and chewing the heads off lead toy soldiers,
I'm 90+
So?


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## DaveD (Dec 27, 2020)

Norman, your ML7 friend may be confused by the racing section of Colin Chapman's enterprise - 'Team Lotus' being sponsored by 'Gold Leaf' brand cigarette advertising in the late '60s. As far as am aware it was only gold coloured livery !
DaveD


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## goldstar31 (Dec 27, 2020)

All that glisters is not gold

But this old couple have no family and there is a TR3A plus quite a bit of Fairey stuff.
 Of course, my friend's wife  payed the organ and the sax( Not necessarily at the same time) at my son's wedding.
Clears throat and remarks seeing the S.W France thingie. He has a place in the Dordogne and   speaks French rather better than  the average Grenouille. He's taken for someone from the Touraine.
He's got a LHD corrugated iron 2CV as 'a mere bagatelle- and Dad here  is bound by the 7 Year Rule and is thinking of a  'Petit Cadeau'  pour les enfants terribles'!

Oui?


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## abby (Dec 27, 2020)

Just to add to the story of tin , at prolonged below zero temperatures tin can change its allotropic form from a shiny silver metal to a dull grey dust.
A legend is that several tons of tin ingots stored in the unheated cellars of the Kremlin for a Russian czar turned to dust during a very cold winter and that the tin coating on food cans carried by a polar expedition also changed causing the food to perish.
Dan.


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## MRA (Dec 28, 2020)

That's very interesting Dan.  Do you know if it will simply melt back into a metallic form?  My experience with melting fine-stuff is, it's hard to persuade it to melt as opposed to burn and turn to oxide dross.  

Someone mentioned degassing upthread.  There are various youtubers, some very experienced, who use washing soda (wrapped in tin foil and plunged into hot aluminium alloy) as a degasser, and others on there who say it doesn't work / buy the 'proper tablets' etc etc.  I've tried it, and on turning the samples (with / without) for my very rough and ready comparison, I think I could convince myself that tiny bubbles were less in evidence when I used it.  I mean _tiny_ bubbles - both samples were not obviously porous and hole-y, though I can manage that too on occasion in case anyone thinks I am some kind of expert.


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## Richard Carlstedt (Dec 28, 2020)

I worked with (not for) several  Aluminum Foundries and can add a few points to produce denser castings. 
The "gas" you are getting rid of is Hydrogen. It has a huge affinity for Aluminum and other metals.  .
Try to cover the crucible during and after melting to reduce exposure to Moist Air .  Our castings could not be poured when high humidity existed as they were critical and needed high density.  Also, you degass the melt immediately before pouring . If you degass and wait for a minute or two before pouring, it is too late.
A foundry man explained it to me this way
Humidity is a surplus of H2O ..
Oxygen has a huge affinity for hot metals  ( think rusting after welding )
So when you melt metal ,the oxygen in moisture  combines with the metal making dross and that frees the Hydrogen which exists in the metal as gas
The Flux you have in some melts is a barrier to moisture penetration
So  Degass and skim dross and pour quickly
Rich


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## William May (Dec 28, 2020)

Shopgeezer said:


> So what is alloyed with the tin these days to make pewter?  Or is pewter effectively extinct?
> 
> There is a theory that lead had an effect on the crews of the Franklin expedition in the Arctic. The tin can had just been invented and many were taken as stores on the ships. There was apparently high levels of lead in the solder used to make the cans. Examination of tins discarded in rubbish heaps on the shore showed great gouts of solder sticking into the inside of the cans. It is thought that food stored for a year in these tins would have been contaminated with lead from the solder and this contributed to the strange decisions that seemed to be made by the leaders of the expedition.


I think this is no longer a theory, but a fact. They did autopsies on the bodies of Franklin crewmen, (They found nearly all their graves) and I think they all had high levels of lead. (That was why they decided a piano was sacred, and physically moved it with them while they were slowly starving and dying of the cold. They were completely nuts by that time. )
There was a TV special on it here in the U.S.  understand they have also found the Franklin ships, and the wrecks are now protected.


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## William May (Dec 28, 2020)

Richard Carlstedt said:


> I worked with (not for) several  Aluminum Foundries and can add a few points to produce denser castings.
> The "gas" you are getting rid of is Hydrogen. It has a huge affinity for Aluminum and other metals.  .
> Try to cover the crucible during and after melting to reduce exposure to Moist Air .  Our castings could not be poured when high humidity existed as they were critical and needed high density.  Also, you degass the melt immediately before pouring . If you degass and wait for a minute or two before pouring, it is too late.
> A foundry man explained it to me this way
> ...


Degassing tablets for aluminum can be purchased from Porter-Warner Industries, in Phoenix, Arizona. They can also supply Phos-Copper shot for degassing brass castings. They are the people I get all my foundry supplies from, and they are VERY nice to deal with, as I am a tiny one-man foundry (Just me and the cat) (Although the cat is just an idler and layabout!) but they treat me the same as they do the huge companies like Asarco, who have huge smelting plants in Arizona and buy their supplies by the ton. I buy a little box of de-gassing tablets at a time. I sent some to Felgebiel  (over in the "Engines" section) and am waiting to hear if his castings improved. PW also supply me with my drums of casting sand, parting dust, etc. I could not recommend them more highly. I have no interest in them except as a very satisfied customer. I make trips once or twice a year from Tucson to Phoenix to pick up foundry supplies.


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## HMEL (Dec 29, 2020)

Hang on to the tin, alloyed with small amounts of cu and a tiny bit of lead makes babbitt bearings.  Tin is also quite costly.  Its great for toy soldiers small statues but not so good for things that require high strength.  Its only put on tin cans for corrosion resistance.  On the issue of lead many old piping systems were made of lead as well as pitchers for storing water.  When used with wine the acid of made it worse as the Romans found out.  Mix the lead with the tin and you have solder, a low melting alloy.  In drinking water it affects children the most because they are growing.  So most municipalities and environmental regulations discourage its use.  And I have a nice scar from that high temperature no lead melting solder on my hand.  Hard lesson learned of just how high that melting point was.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 30, 2020)

HMEL said:


> Tin is also quite costly.  Its great for toy soldiers small statues but not so good for things that require high strength.  Its only put on tin cans for corrosion resistance.  On the issue of lead many old piping systems were made of lead as well as pitchers for storing water.  When used with wine the acid of made it worse as the Romans found out.



I never quite believe historians! OK, I live within a stone's throw of Hadrian's Wall and  and I have for those who have never been near to a bit  sea  between Europ and Africa it is called  the Medi-terre- ranean . In other words it is s I say between TWO lands. I spent my summers where the Romand recruite people to throw stones. The Baleares in Spanish and the Balearic Islands for those  who have never been.
 Again I've lived where Hannibal took his elephants and further South to where the Madonna is not claimed to be olive skinned as per the Vatican( who had 2 Popes running together) and all sorts of paintings of Jesus but in the South of France there is a Belief of a Black madonna so following it through logically the Messiah could have been rather coloured.  I'm merely linking  or unlinking the other accounts!
So the Romans were 'down there'  there are Coliseums and images of crocodiles and palm trees and - chains arpund there necks. No one has said what the metal was but you cannot expected historians  to- well you can't.   But I have been the Roman aqueduct at  Pont( Bridge) du Garde and instead of having a swim went up  to where the water was brought down - for hundreds of miles- there was no metal because the channels and the 'lids' were stone slabs. If one paddles around the once Roman cities it is all stone.  So do I drink wine?  To the des[air of the medics and the acceptance of my children who were brought up on water and wine, the Romans who do necessarily come from Rome got their wine in barrels and certainly by ship in amphora which had nothing to do ti n or whatever.  They were made out of clay. Contrary to what historians do, I put a mask and fins and a lead weight belt and did a 'first' on a Roman galley. The juryy is out vwhether it carried St Paul on his way to Rome between the Maltese and the Croations but there is a Roman Galley off the headland at Mjlet. I tried to loosen one to give to  a lady who became my wife!
 And if you follow Charlees Graves I Claudius- book oof TV film  they all drank out of tin /lead mugs?
 The wine was decanted and realising the time quaff a measure( well me), it never stays in the glass mugs tin cup whatever- very long or long enough to for the lead to do a fat lot of damage. 
 And then the citizens of Rome? Most of them were slaves-- and a few were Vestal Virgins but did they all have a pmetal mug?  You know there is a limit to what little boys could mine tin and lead and copper which were the stapple exports of what became England. Let's get real and go hundreds of years later and dig out a British man o'war and you find that most of the drinking and eating stuff was wood. 
Probably the most dangerous tging in Ancient Rome Rome  was malaria from the undrained( then ) Pontine Marshes.  That was 2000 years ago but in 1914/18 WW1 men were dying of malaria in nearby Salonica- which you probably never heard of and  that goes for the history mob. My uncle got a ar Pension from it. 

Incidentally, if lead stunted groth, i'm delighted because  I stopped growing when I was over 6 feet.

So I hope that I haven't ruined- pre-conceived notions( Oops)


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## HMEL (Dec 30, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> I never quite believe historians! OK, I live within a stone's throw of Hadrian's Wall and  and I have for those who have never been near to a bit  sea  between Europ and Africa it is called  the Medi-terre- ranean . In other words it is s I say between TWO lands. I spent my summers where the Romand recruite people to throw stones. The Baleares in Spanish and the Balearic Islands for those  who have never been.
> Again I've lived where Hannibal took his elephants and further South to where the Madonna is not claimed to be olive skinned as per the Vatican( who had 2 Popes running together) and all sorts of paintings of Jesus but in the South of France there is a Belief of a Black madonna so following it through logically the Messiah could have been rather coloured.  I'm merely linking  or unlinking the other accounts!
> So the Romans were 'down there'  there are Coliseums and images of crocodiles and palm trees and - chains arpund there necks. No one has said what the metal was but you cannot expected historians  to- well you can't.   But I have been the Roman aqueduct at  Pont( Bridge) du Garde and instead of having a swim went up  to where the water was brought down - for hundreds of miles- there was no metal because the channels and the 'lids' were stone slabs. If one paddles around the once Roman cities it is all stone.  So do I drink wine?  To the des[air of the medics and the acceptance of my children who were brought up on water and wine, the Romans who do necessarily come from Rome got their wine in barrels and certainly by ship in amphora which had nothing to do ti n or whatever.  They were made out of clay. Contrary to what historians do, I put a mask and fins and a lead weight belt and did a 'first' on a Roman galley. The juryy is out vwhether it carried St Paul on his way to Rome between the Maltese and the Croations but there is a Roman Galley off the headland at Mjlet. I tried to loosen one to give to  a lady who became my wife!
> And if you follow Charlees Graves I Claudius- book oof TV film  they all drank out of tin /lead mugs?
> ...


Lead does not stunt growth.  It interferes with cognitive ability.  And the amount in the body is measured from hair and tissue samples.  So in fact you could grow to be quite large and not have all the lights on as the saying goes.  And anthropologist do check bone samples for various poisons and contaminates when they get the chance to determine what they may have died from.  When you work with metals you find that lead, mercury and beryllium deserve their fair share of respect.  Spent some time in Rome, Spain and Greece visiting many of the fine museums located in the region.  And I enjoyed the many fine wines also.


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## glue-itcom (Dec 30, 2020)

Modern pewter is lovely to machine and the finish stays for years with a gentle patina forming. It is a tad soft and so be careful holding it in the lathe and take fine cuts - the aluminium tungsten tip tools work superbly on this. Also, I tend to turn this dry as I keep the swarf to remelt - I literally drill a hole in a piece of wood and pour the molten metal into it. Skim the surface of the molten metal before pouring as you do get some horrible oxides. Also, you get lots of smoke as the metal burns and forms a carbon surface.

I made the flywheel on my solenoid engine/motor using pewter and gently hammered the surface - photo taken just now and I think this engine must be approaching 10 years old, so still holding a nice finish on the flywheel


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## Shopgeezer (Dec 30, 2020)

Well the Roman legions didn’t fight with wooden swords and their armour wasn’t made out of clay. They were tremendous metal workers. The slaves might have been drinking out of wooden bowels but the wealthy had all manner of fine metal utensils and table settings. Archeologists know their stuff. Modern analysis reveals all kinds of interesting things about the past.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 30, 2020)

It would seem that the Roman Army was comprised of 30 Legions each with no more than 5-6000 fighting men.  They  guarded 70 million inhabitants of the Roman Empire- all with tin mugs?
Before all this happened, there was the Bronze Age.  Indeed, it dod happen in England and , it may surprise but I used to sit in an armchair and at the back of it was a glass case containing an almost complete  Bronze Age skeleton.  Two were unearthed (pardon) and with the ciste of a child and the other was exhibited next to a statue of  Lord Armstrong in the grounds of the Hancock Museum which had or has an Egyptian 'mummy. She was really a Mummy.


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## Canyonman (Dec 30, 2020)

Thank You for the tips Nigel.    Ken


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## ddmckee54 (Dec 31, 2020)

The Romans added what was called "Sugar of Lead" to their wine to make it more palatable, if they could afford it. (Google sugar of lead to find out how it was made.)

Don


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## Mousetrap (Jan 1, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I was brought up on lead piping and chewing the heads off lead toy soldiers,
> I'm 90+
> So?


As well as every thing painted with lead based paint which included wooden toys, wooden cots and wooden play pens that we children would chew on.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 1, 2021)

Mousetrap said:


> As well as every thing painted with lead based paint which included wooden toys, wooden cots and wooden play pens that we children would chew on.


Well Yes but those years are 'When I was a cild, I spake as a child and so on.
I don't honestly believe i the fullness of life that that lead had little to do with decreasing mortality.
I've sort of done it all and recalled quite clearly my maternal grandfather describing his exploits of actually boiling the lead which he had mined. There are people who come as day trippers, formulate opinions and pronounce to people who have never even been on a day trip, their accumulated authority- and had time to consume  fish and cipps and mushy peas assaulted by with an overzealous amount of salt from a a battered aluminium salt sellar excesses mined salt from .
Saints Preserve us!
With one whole day, we snotty, pimply little urchins were given a lesson in chemistry - never to be repeated. I was 11 and we made inedible common salt. And that was it. The guy flew off to a bombing raid ion Germany and we were dirty little gutter snipes to do our best with a second hand WW2 chemistry set.
Somehow, I seem to recall that acetic acid necessary to be the acid to react with the lead is either wine vinegar or spirit vinegar and it reacts with lead and very locically of you are not  fast drinker and leave  your almost undrinkable vino collapso, it will yield a sort of sweet  drink.
Lets be real, the rich of ancient Roman were stinking rich band  consumed and drank from golden vessels- which took Aqua Regia` a mixure of Nitric and sulphuric acid to make  much of an impression.

The second line i the sort of pecking order would be from silver. and way down this only second from the bottom from actually drinking out of 'lead' cups.

Frankly, I'm far too old to be take in- with third or worse hand evidence. here may be  something which I could have escaped my Rheumy eyes.
So comment, please

Norman


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## Richard Hed (Jan 1, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Well Yes but those years are 'When I was a cild, I spake as a child and so on.
> I don't honestly believe i the fullness of life that that lead had little to do with decreasing mortality.
> I've sort of done it all and recalled quite clearly my maternal grandfather describing his exploits of actually boiling the lead which he had mined. There are people who come as day trippers, formulate opinions and pronounce to people who have never even been on a day trip, their accumulated authority- and had time to consume  fish and cipps and mushy peas assaulted by with an overzealous amount of salt from a a battered aluminium salt sellar excesses mined salt from .
> Saints Preserve us!
> ...


l for one don't wish to take it


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## goldstar31 (Jan 1, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> l for one don't wish to take it



And you are the one that wanted to buy a heap of cast iron and machine it to form dust which inevitably a lot will be inhaled------- but think again  that cast iron was probably coated with a lead   based paint  which you would  would have to remove.

You were prepared to create and enter this scenario. 
So I'm glad - for your sake- that you lost the sale and the subsequent dangers from paint inhalation.
And you were smoking!


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## Richard Hed (Jan 1, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> And you are the one that wanted to buy a heap of cast iron and machine it to form dust which inevitably a lot will be inhaled------- but think again  that cast iron was probably coated with a lead   based paint  which you would  would have to remove.
> 
> You were prepared to create and enter this scenario.
> So I'm glad - for your sake- that you lost the sale and the subsequent dangers from paint inhalation.
> And you were smoking!


Thanx.  I am always looking for alternatives.  Well, fellows on the forum convinced me to keep it in one piece and try to use it as was.  But really, too little room in my pitifully small garage


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## SmithDoor (Jan 1, 2021)

Canyonman said:


> Would cast pewter be suitable for engine castings Steam and IC?
> Thanks Ken


Pewter is not cheap it does melt about 700°F [ 370°C] 
I would look at aluminum it has a pouring temperature of 1,400°F [760°C]
Pewter would for small models as you maybe able to use bullet casting equipment. 

Dave


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## goldstar31 (Jan 2, 2021)

I can go happily along with the suggestion about tin being a useful material for model making.
I recall a firm selling some thing called a Picador Pup lathe in the 1950's and for the curious Google lathes.co.uk for a comprehensive write up.
But my own memory goes further because Picador made Plummer blocks in die cast aluminium and also a linishing belt machine which in my case was powered by a 1440 1/4HP machine salvaged from a washing machine.
Today, my linishing machine  is Chinese plastic and with better metal rests would make a better addition to my workshop.  Again, I have a little plastic faceplate sander out of pretty plastic and I actually have a wood router table made from injected plastic. No I haven't tried it but I thought it-- a good idea at the time

But back to the days of Noah, I made a wooden fixed steady for my old pools Major lathe( which few if any have heard about.

So I would find little to criticise if 'other metals and plastics were employed.
It would be great to see how today's people utilised them


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## Shopgeezer (Jan 2, 2021)

While the Roman aristocrats quaffed their boiled ostrich and lark tongues from golden plates the food was prepared back in the kitchen in high lead pots. Lead water pipes were used widely and stone aqueducts were lined with lead. The real corker was wine sweetened with lead acetate (sugar of lead) and boiled down to reduce it and concentrate the sugars (and the lead). This sauce was widely used in cooking. What all this lead actually did to the population is just a wild guess. They knocked back a lot of wine in a day so the alcohol would probably get them first. Not to mention disease and pointy things with sharp edges.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 2, 2021)

Hi Shopgeezer!

Thank you for brightening my day. It's cold, raw and wet and I am scurrying to find a de-numbing 
wine. However, looking at my own collection of sweeteners there is initially honey and a host of good sweet wines which 'enrich the day' For me, there is always a good vintage port which is a sweet Portuguese wine fortified with alcohol and if you like a dryer wine like the competing Spanish ones like Tio Pepe, there is white port and now 'pink'( Don't know about the latter). Again,, there is Muscatel and excellent with pork and chiches pois. From what I gather is the longer one leaves the grape the sugar content increases. Quite enervating pounding the grapes with athletes foot.
Of course, you are right about the amount of alcohol which was drunk in those days--- and now.
A great deal of water was undrinkable- and still is. Digressing, the  London gin is a fine example and so is beer.  Again, I do like the idea of 'sweet and sour ostrich'  Marco polo DID get to China! Now was he born in Venice amongst all that ice cream or was it Korcula-- or have I got my dates wromg?
Speaking about dates, we had a little place overlooking the sea in Menorca which I bought for  £7500- inflation they had been £450, the same price as a Mini.  However my dear departed wife did want more vegetation around the place and bought a date palm  for a ridiculous 1000 pesetas.
Siting it to get water in our absence was a problem and i her inimitable way hit on the septic tank.  This would collect the night soil and the storm water in our absence and would be emptied by the 'gully gully man' and sprayed liberally on the island's tomatoes etc. It certainly DID grow. It also created a fine crop o dates. Say no more!
Diseases? Oh yes. I've mentioned malaria but  there was a lot of other diseases and these are to be found damaging the bones. They had their share of Covid-55BC and a lot of  things.
Lead poisoning really in endemic proportions was not found until the WW1 and subsequently. 
It's all enough to persuade a person to drink- and see if the contents  of this new bottle cause me to fall down without warning.  It is becoming  quite unpleasant-- and I don't know why.
All my mate and I are doing is trying to save our bit of what was Roaming Briton by re-cyclings as many  bottles as we can.  i supoose one should drink to that?

Your good health

Norman


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## glue-itcom (Jan 3, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Thank you for brightening my day. It's cold, raw and wet and I am scurrying to find a de-numbing
> wine.



Hi, how about a pewter and bog oak candlestick to brighten up the day? I made this some time ago as I just love the mix of materials. I did have to machine a mild steel bar that goes through the centre of the bog oak and threads into the pewter at each end. Sometimes the materials just work for certain applications.




I could have used aluminium, but there is a weight and feel to pewter that stands out, also, the patina that it gets over time is subtle, but lovely. The bog oak in this case is a very old piece of wood and more like balsa wood to machine, hence the steel support.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 4, 2021)

glue-itcom said:


> Thanks! I like the mention of Bog Oak.  I came across it at perhaps the pimply, pus filled age of about 13.  My long gone youth club leader had somehow got pieces of the wood which had been pulled out of the River Tyne from what remained of the Roman Bridge.  The Swing Bridge- still in use today- replaced it.  The bog oak went to make framings for oil paintings which adorned the old man's little study.  I think it was a test for us youngsters as 'the other seat' was backed by a glass case containing a  Bronze Age skeleton whilst on his study table was a trepanned skull.
> Digressing many years later, my wife  had a similar skull which she kept in a double sized Jacob's Cream cracker box.   My daughter has it and I have no doubt that hr little grand daughter will find it equally fascinating. According to the research of my wife and her other dental associates, 'She', the lady in the box, was of African origin with teeth worn by sand.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 4, 2021)

Familiarity breeds contempt  and  I suddenly had a thought. 
Has anyone actually tested the water in what was Roman?
I'd forgotten but  I actually went around what is now the Croatian Littoral in a boat that was owned by the 9then) Yugoslave  Tanker fleet. As I said, I did a first off Mljet.  The Juglslavs( as they were  called) had competitions between villages and towns as to which had the best water.  Hell,  it was once Roman, the Emperor Diocletian had a villa there! It was artesian stuff and came from the Alps.
It wasn't an invention of modern times.
And then there was a lady who used to go for a months at a time, took her couple of kids with her and at the end of those holidays took back a water sample to be analysed by her staff- to see how much fluoride or how little that came out of her tap- in the Land of the Roman stone throwers. Again, it was artesian and it actually came from the Alps to the North, it popped under the Mediteerranean and came up on  Menorca. The lady was a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons i Dentistry and had been one of the team who were curious as to why the children's teeth in North Shields on the River Tyne fell out whilst on the other ban- at South Shields were perfect.  Of course the lady was my wife.
But, clears throat, we also had places in the Savoie and we had a place where the water might well have been peaty but it came off the granitic strata rather than the limestone further south.
 The next silly thing came to mind me that the Austrians- and the French for that matter sheather their chalet roofs in copper and if they were poor- wood tiles.
Apart from the roches moutonnes and the U shaped glaciated valleys it was all Roman


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