# Warco ZX15 Mill/Drill spindle runout



## skyline1 (Aug 23, 2021)

Hi All

I have just acquired a Warco ZX 15 mill/drill with quite a bit of spindle run-out, the spindle bearings need adjusting or replacing if they are not adjustable

But I have no manual for the machine nor it's original tools (If supplied) so I have no idea of how to do this. Does anyone have any experience of these machines or better still a manual for one.

I don't want to start thumping and bashing things until I have an idea of how the spindle assembly goes together.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Chiptosser (Aug 24, 2021)

How are you checking the run-out?  In a drill chuck, collet?
Or are you referring to movement of the quill in the head?


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 24, 2021)

I tried with a DTI against a piece of 10mm silver steel held in a collet chuck that's how I discovered it. If I touched the silver steel the DTI went wild 20 - 30 thou' or more and I could actually feel a slight clunk if I pressed it sideways. This was with the quill position locked as if for a milling operation so it's not in the quill.

Same thing happens if I measure against the collect chuck itself or the spindle nose. a bit  less but still about 12 thou' and an appreciable sideways clunk.


----------



## TonyM (Aug 24, 2021)

They should be taper roller bearings so check for adjusting nuts on top of the spindle. There were a few generic models out for that type including Chester Champion and probably Grizly too if you check for manuals.


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 24, 2021)

Thanks Tony,

Yes I believe the old style Chester Champion was identical to this and they were originally made in Taiwan. The date of the machine is 2004 and given that the rest of the machine is in immaculate condition I think that an adjustment is all that is required.

I have managed to take the pulley off and the casting under it, this has 2 standard 6007 ball races in it to take the drive from the spindle these felt a little rough so i'm going to replace them while I've got it to bits. They are open bearings but there seems to be no apparent means of greasing them, strange ! 

Underneath I found this,





I think this might be the adjusting nut but it is buried down in the head and seems very tight it is probably the locknut. This machine has no spindle lock either so undoing it is tricky any ideas anyone ?

On the underside of the spindle there is this






As you can see this also appears to have holes for a peg spanner could this be the adjuster ? or both of them.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## TonyM (Aug 24, 2021)

If they are 6007 deep groove then they are not adjustable. The nut you see is to retain the bearing on the quill. Sounds like they need replacing. A good option would be 6007-2RS.  These would be prepacked and maintenance free. Get a good quality set.


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 24, 2021)

Thanks Tony

Yes good advice about bearings, no cheap Chinese ones for this job and I think I will use 2RS ones.

The nut in the photo is below the 2 bearings at the top and independent from them  I think they are to take the drive from the pulley.

The splined spindle slides inside them.  I think there must be more bearings further down to support the bottom of the spindle and that seems to be where the play is.

I have now noticed that there is a little axial up and down play as well which is why I think there might be an angular bearing somewhere, if this was badly worn or needed adjustment it would cause both sideways and up/down play.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 26, 2021)

Some progress guys,

I EMailed Warco to see if they had a manual for the machine and to my utter surprise They did ! They have emailed me a copy F.O.C. and it has exploded views of the whole machine.

I was right in thinking that there must be another bearing somewhere, according to the exploded view there are 3 of them ! which makes a total of 5 bearings in the spindle assembly quite impressive for a machine of this size and spec.



TonyM said:


> They should be taper roller bearings so check for adjusting nuts on top of the spindle. There were a few generic models out for that type including Chester Champion and probably Grizly too if you check for manuals.



Tony you were spot on with this, it looks like they are taper bearings and this is indeed the adjusting nut.

Armed with my exploded view I had another delve into the greasy depths of that casting recess and all became clear. What was marked on the drawing as simply "washer" is a tab washer to keep the adjusting nut in place. This explains why it was reluctant to move, good job I didn't try to "persuade" it too hard I might have damaged something.

So now, it should be be a simple matter of holding the spindle still, knock back the tab washer and take up the nut a little. (I hope)

Many thanks for your help on this guys and I shall report back if the operation is successful.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## oldengineguy (Aug 26, 2021)

Take it apart and replace the bearings! You will be farther ahead than trying to adjust old ,suspect ones. IMHO. Colin


----------



## TonyM (Aug 27, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> Take it apart and replace the bearings! You will be farther ahead than trying to adjust old ,suspect ones. IMHO. Colin


I Agree. New bearings would be best.


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 27, 2021)

With all (rolling) bearings, as soon as there is measurable play, after contact pressure has dropped to zero (pre-load has dissapeared) the bearing will start to oscillate, causing "hammer" and fatigue of the tracks. This will resonate - which exacerbates the wear - and eventually the sub-surface below the hard skin on the tracks deforms in a pattern related to the resonance and number of rolling elements (plus one). This then allows fatigue of the hard surface which will eventually crack and flake off (microscopically). The debbris, will then rapidly deteriorate the wear to total failure. 
With play in your bearings, you'll be a long way into the life before failure, so please fit new bearings (correctly of course!). I would have thought Warco would have advised that?
Enjoy!
K2


----------



## MisterFixIt1952 (Aug 27, 2021)

If you have play in your formerly preloaded bearings, definitely replace them. You don't have to even replace them with the highest-rated bearings. A good brand of mid-range bearings is not that expensive and well worth the effort. Check out youtube for some good videos regarding spindle rebuilding. You will get good tips on lubrication and preloading.


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 27, 2021)

Having thought on this a little, and now I am a bit clearer on how to dismantle it all, I agree It would be much better (and cheaper in the long term) to change them all as I am changing the pulley bearings anyway.

Good quality (if not highest quality) bearings are relatively inexpensive and Chinese knock offs are dirt cheap, but I definitely won't be going that route on this job, these will be branded ones from a reputable source.

I have changed many motor and gearbox bearings in the past, including some preloaded ones so I know the correct method to do it (and some incorrect ones occasionally) but this was done in much better equipped workshops than my little home shop.

Overall I feel fairly confident especially if I can get the whole quill/spindle assembly out as a unit so I can work on it on the bench.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 28, 2021)

Hi Mark, 
You have set me thinking that I should change my bearings on a "rattley" Champion mill-drill. Please can you copy me with the Warco manual? (If a suitable file?).
Also, A few steps of which end to start and tips on what to do (e.g. the tab-washer bit!). I have never dismantled a quill, through motorcycle engines and gear-boxes are bread and butter skills for me. Just good to hear the gremlins that someone else has found, so I can be prepared! Does the quill come out of the bottom, or through the top of the Machine head? I have limited headroom and side clearance, and clearance beneath so will need a bit of jiggery-pokery to fiddle it either which way... removing a shelf will probably permit me to rotate the whole head so it is beyond the end of the bench so it can drop out the bottom - if that's the way to do it?
Thanks,
K2


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 28, 2021)

I am still awaiting a couple of tools so I haven't fully dismantled mine yet but the manual is attached to this post. I think you will be able to download it directly but if not contact me and I'll P.M. you a copy. I assume this is the old type Champion you are talking about the new one is quite different

To get to the bearing adjuster do the following :

Move the motor as if you were changing speed and slip the belt off

Hold the pulley and remove the castle nut on top of it (you can either use the belt as a kind of spanner or pop something in the spindle taper and hold that) It shouldn't be particularly tight mine wasn't, a few gentle taps with a soft headed punch should loosen it or a 'C' spanner if you have a suitable one

Remove the pulley. either with a bearing puller or a couple of big screwdrivers it might be a bit tight on the keyway but luckily on this one it's steel not aluminium so you can apply a fair bit of force without damaging it.

remove the 3 capscrews from the casting below and lift this out this will remove the spindle drive bearing assembly which can be dismantled in the usual way if required, note that one of the bearings is held in by big circlips so you will need some solid circlip pliers (one of the tools I;m waiting for I didn't have any internal ones big enough)

Below this you should find the bearing adjusting nut as in the above picture and it's dreaded tab washer you will need to clean some of the black grease away to see it and a strong light is required, I used the mill's own worklight very handy !

lock the quill, in it's highest position and hold the spindle to stop it rotating, I put a large drill in the taper and clamped it gently to two pieces of wood held in the machine vice, loosen the vice clamping bolts to stop it putting to much side thrust of the spindle.

The tab washer can now be knocked down with a small pin punch and the adjusting nut should now be able to be tapped round again with a soft punch.

If you have stripped motorcycle gearboxes most of this will be "old hat" to you and not particularly difficult, Bike boxes are much more tricky than this, they have a nasty habit of simply exploding in a cloud of gears and springs and stuff when you split them.

I haven't dismantled one of these before either so we will both be on the same learning curve, The exploded views in the manual although not particularly detailed or descriptive are of help though

The next stage is to try to get the quill out I shall keep you all informed on progress.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 28, 2021)

Thanks Mark, sounds sensible. I have a job set-up so won't attack a strip-down immediately, but in a week or 3 I guess...
I'll study the manual tomorrow! I'm pretty sure the pdf should open with my desktop PC.
Great stuff!
K2


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 29, 2021)

Hi Mark,
I have just been reading the manual - and lo! My Mill-drill is the equivalent of the MAJOR miller... so not quite the same as yours. 
I'll have to get a manual for mine. But I am pretty sure the structure will be very similar, so thanks for the excellent instructions on stripping the quill. I look forward to reading more when you get the tools and can proceed. 
Keep up the good work.
K2


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 29, 2021)

Just managed to order the manual for my "30" mill-drill from ebay...
So now awaiting deleivery....
K2


----------



## goldstar31 (Aug 29, 2021)

I have assumed that mills and lathes  are \generic' despite being \badged' by Imorters
So give or take minor differences, they are all 'What Fitz Henry FitzWilliam' and My manual was for my Warco  ihas a manual from Haebor Freight and your lathe from Chester is out of the same stable as as my 'new' ArcEurotrade one which  re[;aced the Axminster one that came from Sieg. and probaly  Warco and a rash of all things American and Australian!

NORMAN


----------



## SmithDoor (Aug 29, 2021)

Run-out 0.000,5" for most work. 
I like Run-out 0.000,1" 

Dave 



skyline1 said:


> Hi All
> 
> I have just acquired a Warco ZX 15 mill/drill with quite a bit of spindle run-out, the spindle bearings need adjusting or replacing if they are not adjustable
> 
> ...


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 29, 2021)

Peculiarly, the Chinese basic machines come in lots of variants unique to international sales companies.... but basics, like bearing arrangements, are usually the same. (I hope!). 
Both Warco and Chesters are reputed to use "ex-machine shop or toolmakers" to do service checks and any adjustment to settings before shipping to customers. They also require the machines to comply with National regulations - for electrical safety, etc. - so they have various factory mods as appropriate to the country of sale. These are not always in the manuals and diagrams... Even motors can be different from the diagrams, as markets and products change.
All good to keep us guessing!
K2


----------



## wazrus (Aug 30, 2021)

Reading all the contributions with interest, as It's the first time, in over 40 years, that I've seen the 'ZX' brand mill/drills discussed. My ZX28 soldiers on and with all due consideration, the round column has not proved to be anything like the handicap as was suggested at the time. In fact, there have been times when I've swung the head around 180 degrees to access a job on the shop floor! Failures have included the plastic speed change levers and those silly plastic handwheel knobs, all of which self-destructed and I have replaced the thrust bearings in the cross-slide and also replaced the oil seals in the head. Of course, the head had to be completely stripped to access the seals and as that was more than ten years ago, I couldn't give a blow-by-blow description of the process. The head innards wallow around in an oil bath and there was a window, which leaked, to look at the oil level. I've replaced the window with a dipstick arrangement. I have the impression that the ZX15 uses sealed/greased bearings? Perhaps the ZX28 is a more advanced model!! Ho ho ho ho. The diagrams I have, all annotated in Chinese, show four bearings supporting the spindle and I have dimensions of the bearings, if anybody wants that detail. Good value for the price.


----------



## Steamchick (Aug 30, 2021)

Mine has belt change pulleys - all manual - so no gearbox issues. I think it dates from 1980s or 90s, as I bought it 3rd hand from a guy who had used it for 5 years or more.. After buying it "a bit worn and obsolete"... but works fine for my jobs, though needs some TDC now. With heavy cuts it can rotate on the round pillar (poor clamps) - I have changed the bolts to high tensile, but to no avail.
K2


----------



## skyline1 (Aug 31, 2021)

wazrus said:


> I have the impression that the ZX15 uses sealed/greased bearings



Yes it has 5 bearings in the spindle assembly the top 2, which take the load from the  drive pulley are standard 6007 open bearings which appear to have no means of greasing them other than taking the pulley and top bearing mounting off. I have found out that this is a fairly simple operation and probably what was originally intended. The manual makes no mention of lubricating them though. I may well change them for 2RS ones at a later date possibly deep groove ones.

The bottom 3 are obviously preloaded, adjustable bearings of some kind and there is an oil post on the quill but exactly what they are I don't know yet as I haven't had chance to try getting the quill out and may be busy this week (domestic jobs do tend to get in the way of things)

One minor concern I have is, if the quill drive pinion needs to come out this means disconnecting the return spring which is pretty strong. Getting it out will probably not be too difficult, but springs being springs, getting it back in could be a different matter altogether. That part may result in some rather "fruity" language or even things getting thrown about.

Best Regards Mark


----------



## wazrus (Aug 31, 2021)

It all sounds as though your 'ZX' mill is very different from mine. It came with a very ,very comprehensive 'manual', but chinese isn't a strong suit and it's more than double-Dutch. But there are some diagrammatic parts and assembly drawings. It's all printed on dyeline plan-printing paper which even still has that ammoniac smell and it hasn't all faded away! Yet. Bound in a nice plastic binder, too.


----------



## Steamchick (Jan 29, 2022)

I think the Chinese have learned about "sales presentation" from the Japanese. (re: The nice plastic binder containing rubbish...). While on business in Japan (a few decades ago) I had many gifts. All beautifully wrapped... but the contents (e.g. a comb and leather case) were the cheapest rubbish you would not put in cheap Christmas crackers! The comb had fewer teeth after I had combed my hair than I expected, as about 1/3rd simply fell off! The leather case became unstitched the second time I went to get the comb out. So both comb and case went in the bin! The packaging was beautiful though. I felt privileged to receive such a beautiful gift from the MD - yet insulted the day after, when I realised what "show" they were presenting. My Japanese colleagues couldn't understand that... I quickly realised why you do not open presents while you are with your hosts! Afterwards, all the other "gifts" were in the same line. So I did the British thing and courteously respected how much they really valued my visit.
K2


----------



## wazrus (Jan 29, 2022)

My manual's binder isn't really all that flash, but very adequate. I seem to recall, without looking, that almost every page is 'signed off' as, presumably, being 'up to spec'. At our Sydney 'engineering exhibition' (ho ho ho ho), a young lady on the 'china' stand there was a bit amused that I wasn't terribly interested in updating my ZX28 to a ZX30. Really I can't fault the machine in the value-for-dollars stakes and as I've said, it keeps on keeping on and I've had no gearbox issues at all, other than the seals. At the outset, though, I did a 'deal' with the seller which, for a round $1000, included a 1-1/2HP motor, which replaced the original 3-phase, reversing/tapping unit. I had to weld up and machine a bell housing to adapt the motor, but the lashup has been on the unit since new. Then, I suppose $1000 in 1980-odd wasn't exactly cheap! While, as you say, presentation seems to be a 'failing', in 2022, surely we're a little more sage and can look through the claptrap, certainly not expecting a free lunch! Packaging give me the tom-tits, too.


----------



## Richard Hed (Jan 30, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> I think the Chinese have learned about "sales presentation" from the Japanese. (re: The nice plastic binder containing rubbish...). While on business in Japan (a few decades ago) I had many gifts. All beautifully wrapped... but the contents (e.g. a comb and leather case) were the cheapest rubbish you would not put in cheap Christmas crackers! The comb had fewer teeth after I had combed my hair than I expected, as about 1/3rd simply fell off! The leather case became unstitched the second time I went to get the comb out. So both comb and case went in the bin! The packaging was beautiful though. I felt privileged to receive such a beautiful gift from the MD - yet insulted the day after, when I realised what "show" they were presenting. My Japanese colleagues couldn't understand that... I quickly realised why you do not open presents while you are with your hosts! Afterwards, all the other "gifts" were in the same line. So I did the British thing and courteously respected how much they really valued my visit.
> K2


I heard also that the Japanese will not open the package infront for anyone.  they won't open the package at all.  They will take it home and give it away to someone else without bothering to open it.  LOL


----------



## Steamchick (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi Wazrux, I wonder how the torque compared between the 3-phase and single phase motors? Of course, you need to match your mains supply, by nowadays, 3-phase motors with variable speed drives are favoured over single phase. And I would appreciate a tapping unit on my "30"! - but it has a FWD/FEV switch. And HUGE torque with the belt gearing for low speeds. Can't get that with VFD. I would not want the belts and bearings to spend too long at more than the top speed (2150rpm) mine has. (too noisy).
K2


----------



## Steamchick (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi Richard, They didn't teach me that trick!
K2


----------



## ChazzC (Jan 30, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> I heard also that the Japanese will not open the package infront for anyone.  they won't open the package at all.  They will take it home and give it away to someone else without bothering to open it.  LOL



Things must have changed since I traveled to Tokyo in the early 1980's: at that time gift giving at first and last matings were an essential part of doing business and one was expected to open and admire the gift upon presentation. I was prepared for thes and had well-wrapped bottles of Johnny Walker (a favorite in Japan) and other, lesser delicacies for lower level hosts. My associate and I were presented with a beautiful coffee table books of Japan at the first meeting and high-end Seiko watches for our wives on departure (they made a point of displaying the watches, having us fill out the warranty cards in our wives' names and then an office worker wrapped the gifts beautifully; sadly, only my wife's gift survived intact going through customs at JFK: my associate had to unwrap his, but I just told the agent that I had the same thing).

I do admit that I was representing a large multi-national company who had purchased a major piece of equipment which we were examining prior to shipment (and was planning on purchasing several more). However, I have heard of similar experiences to mine during the same time frame from others who did not have the same connections.


----------



## Richard Hed (Jan 30, 2022)

ChazzC said:


> Things must have changed since I traveled to Tokyo in the early 1980's: at that time gift giving at first and last matings were an essential part of doing business and one was expected to open and admire the gift upon presentation. I was prepared for thes and had well-wrapped bottles of Johnny Walker (a favorite in Japan) and other, lesser delicacies for lower level hosts. My associate and I were presented with a beautiful coffee table books of Japan at the first meeting and high-end Seiko watches for our wives on departure (they made a point of displaying the watches, having us fill out the warranty cards in our wives' names and then an office worker wrapped the gifts beautifully; sadly, only my wife's gift survived intact going through customs at JFK: my associate had to unwrap his, but I just told the agent that I had the same thing).
> 
> I do admit that I was representing a large multi-national company who had purchased a major piece of equipment which we were examining prior to shipment (and was planning on purchasing several more). However, I have heard of similar experiences to mine during the same time frame from others who did not have the same connections.


Easy to understand.  I have never been in either position to recieve cheezy or something worthwhile doing Japanese business.  I'm sure in major business deals worth millinions of $$, the seller is not going to give a client a plastic mickeymouse.  That would be insulting.  Even a slight insult like that coul;d be a deal breaker.  I myself, have refused at least one deal worth about 40,000$ because of a percieved insult.


----------



## wazrus (Jan 30, 2022)

G'day Steamchick and others: the thing works, works well and keeps on working and at the time I didn't have any 3-phase available. I do now, though, but I've never used it. There seems to be oodles of torque from the single -phase but that, it seems to me, has a bit to do with the motor manufacture, as I have another, supposedly 1-1/2HP on a 6"x24" lathe and I've stalled that regularly. It replaced a much older (and better?) unit, on which the insulation had apparently been breaking down and which I had 'refurbished', to find that it continued to trip the breakers. At the time, I did enquire about replacing the breaker with one a little more 'tolerant', shall we say, but at $180 for the breaker, vs. $125 for a replacement motor..... Ah well, chinese cheapies.
I was first in Japan in 1967 and was treated to a level of courtesy I found bordering on obsequious and almost to the point of being funny, if it wasn't so well-intended. I was a passenger on a smallish cargo ship and I had bought a (small) motor-bike, which the 'shop' had duly delivered to the dockside and the shop staff were halfway up the (narrow) gangplank, struggling with the bike, when I re-appeared and was able to have the ships' people swing out a derrick and hoist the thing aboard. What a commotion! Now that level of co-operation I couldn't fault.


----------



## wazrus (Jan 31, 2022)

You did mention about the tapping capability and that, for me, has become a bit of a non-issue, as I have a couple of those reversing/tapping heads, one of which will drive a 3/4" Whit tap in steel without too much trouble, the tapping unit being straight into the 3MT spindle, which has a drawbar. Spindle speed into low, of course (about 30 rpm: I haven't looked) and crunch, crunch, crunch, away we go. I had occasion for a repetition batch of 5/8" Whit in steel, too. No problems. The tapping head is quite a large lump of hardware, its gearbox body is about 150mm diameter and its spindle is set up for square-shank taps. It has a mounting for a 20mm diameter torque arm and this gets a bit of use, too. I'm sure these tapping heads are common as flies.


----------



## Joe (Jan 31, 2022)

[/QUOTE]


ChazzC said:


> Things must have changed since I traveled to Tokyo in the early 1980's: at that time gift giving at first and last "matings"
> were an essential part of doing business and one was expected to open and admire the gift upon presentation.


Isn't it appalling the lengths some will go to in the name of capitalism  ?


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 1, 2022)

Hi Joe, It is simply a "Western corruption of Eastern traditions".
I understand the philosophy of business life to be: "respect and be courteous to the clients you are meeting, and assume they will be honest in all they say - but retain 5% caution - and when they prove to be not telling all the truth, temper your respect accordingly. But remain courteous, even if you have to "blow them away" later!
K2


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 1, 2022)

The real issue that rubbed me the wrong way, was the fact that it was the MD that presented me with gifts that were simply "tat".
He probably didn't know, and certainly none of his people would tell him! The communication up and down in Japanese companies is near distructive at times. The truth is so distorted, it is nearly corrupt. 
I read a Japanese car warranty issue (via Reuters) where the president of a major car maker had to go to meet the the head of the ministry of transport to present the recall campaign for car batteries... (millions of cars affected over a number of years). But this happened just over 3 years after the correction had been introduced. But Japan has such stringent MOT Checks at 3 years old that well over 90% of cars are scrapped or shipped abroad at 3 years old, so only a few thousand cars actually still existed for the recall!
Read what you like into that one...
K2


----------



## Joe (Feb 1, 2022)

Isn't it appalling the lengths some will go to in the name of capitalism  ? 
[/QUOTE]

Sorry guys,  I guess I should have done a cut and paste quotation like this.

Quote
"first and last matings"
End quote.

The worst person to proof read is the original author. 

Cheers


----------



## awake (Feb 1, 2022)

Joe said:


> Isn't it appalling the lengths some will go to in the name of capitalism  ?



Sorry guys,  I guess I should have done a cut and paste quotation like this.

Quote
"first and last matings"
End quote.

The worst person to proof read is the original author.

Cheers
[/QUOTE]

That does make more sense now! And I too thought the typo was amusing.


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 1, 2022)

Not sure how this relates to spindle run-out... but amusing so far....
K2


----------



## awake (Feb 1, 2022)

Run out is a wobble off course. We are wobbling off topic. See? It all fits!


----------



## ChazzC (Feb 7, 2022)

Isn't it appalling the lengths some will go to in the name of capitalism  ? 
[/QUOTE]

I know I read that post twice: MEETINGS


----------



## wazrus (Feb 9, 2022)

This is off-topic: I've tied to post a new thread, but couldn't seem to manage getting it done. I have I think, attached pix of a gadget which I've had since Adam was a boy and I've never really found out what it is, or what it's supposed to do. I do contend, though, that it's a woodworkers' dowel grooving tool, made in the days before readily available dowel. I have, as have many before me, repaired old furniture and often notice that the dowels seemed to be very second-hand and chewed up. perhaps the dowels were made individually by the craftsperson?
Does anybody have better ideas than mine? What the hell is it?


----------



## awake (Feb 9, 2022)

wazrus said:


> This is off-topic: I've tied to post a new thread, but couldn't seem to manage getting it done. I have I think, attached pix of a gadget which I've had since Adam was a boy and I've never really found out what it is, or what it's supposed to do. I do contend, though, that it's a woodworkers' dowel grooving tool, made in the days before readily available dowel. I have, as have many before me, repaired old furniture and often notice that the dowels seemed to be very second-hand and chewed up. perhaps the dowels were made individually by the craftsperson?
> Does anybody have better ideas than mine? What the hell is it?



To me it would seem way too complicated a tool for such a simple task (grooving dowels). That doesn't mean that's not what it is - sometimes tools have been made and marketed, which are solutions looking for a problem!


----------



## wazrus (Feb 9, 2022)

Looking at the gadget again, it seems that the 'dowel receiver' part - the bit with the 2 wing nuts - is intended to take _square_ material, not round, as further inside the housing, there is a larger square recess, cast-in. So that doesn't help in the slightest, does it? then, it may be that the square idea acts as a sort of V-block for round. As awake says, way to complicated for a seemingly simple task.


----------



## Richard Hed (Feb 10, 2022)

wazrus said:


> This is off-topic: I've tied to post a new thread, but couldn't seem to manage getting it done. I have I think, attached pix of a gadget which I've had since Adam was a boy and I've never really found out what it is, or what it's supposed to do. I do contend, though, that it's a woodworkers' dowel grooving tool, made in the days before readily available dowel. I have, as have many before me, repaired old furniture and often notice that the dowels seemed to be very second-hand and chewed up. perhaps the dowels were made individually by the craftsperson?
> Does anybody have better ideas than mine? What the hell is it?


Where I grew up (ha! got ya on that one!), our barn was constructed with hand whittled dowel pins and square nails.


----------



## wazrus (Feb 10, 2022)

Yes, Richard I have a few square nails myself. But we still don't know what in blazes this thingamajig is!


----------



## ShopShoe (Feb 10, 2022)

I found it:









						Zim #516 Valve Refacer SMALL ENGINE TOOL  | eBay
					

<p>Zim #516 Valve Refacer SMALL ENGINE TOOL. Maybe used once from what I can tell. Please ask any questions thank you</p>



					www.ebay.com
				




--ShopShoe


----------



## wazrus (Feb 10, 2022)

ShopShoe It certainly seems as though the problem is solved! I'll sleep better! The idea is there, if all the parts are not. Some form of rotating the valve, as on the pictures you've shown, would be needed and that's the bit which would clamp into the squared, wing-nutted holder. Mine had had a fair bit of use, I'd reckon, as the pressure screw end is mushroomed, but then again, the screw end may be hardened with that shape. I haven't tested the hardness. I can see how the relief angles on the tool would serve the valve seat. I might even try to make up some form of rotator/holder. Thanks again. Wazrus


----------



## awake (Feb 10, 2022)

Hmm, similar, but not quite the same. And I don't quite see how the "valve refacer" would work - ??


----------



## wazrus (Feb 10, 2022)

Awake: I think it wouldn't be the last word in precision and doubtful in refacing valves. I can see the orientation of the cutter square can be suited for the valve angle, but with my (limited) appreciation of automotive parts, I do think - I could stand corrected - that valves are from pretty hard stuff and the carbon steel cutter might not cut the mustard, let alone the valve. Maybe cheaper, earlier engines were not so sophisticated. Many of the 'refacers' I've subsequently seen, have a hand crank, but mine doesn't. It's simply gone AWOL.  There would also, I'd expect, be some collet arrangements to grip the valve stem. If so, that's also missiing. Anybody have any further thoughts?


----------



## ShopShoe (Feb 11, 2022)

What got me looking for the link I found (above) was that I had a different version of the same thing that used a square toolbit. It was also missing parts. I got it in a box of junk and never used it, even though I worked on a lot of small engines.

I think that since these were made to work on small engines, like Briggs and Stratton 2 hp ones, they were meant for a simpler time. I also think the idea was to use this device for starting the refacing, then you would finish with lapping the valve to the seat in the engine. 

To paraphrase a former co-worker: "They probably make a special tool for everything. If you really need it depends on your brain and your money."

--ShopShoe

--

P.S.: Mrpete222 (aka Tubalcain, aka Lyle Peterson) on YouTube periodically posts "What is it?" videos for unusual tools and objects, then follows up with the answers a few weeks later.


----------



## LAS (Feb 11, 2022)

wazrus said:


> This is off-topic: I've tied to post a new thread, but couldn't seem to manage getting it done. I have I think, attached pix of a gadget which I've had since Adam was a boy and I've never really found out what it is, or what it's supposed to do. I do contend, though, that it's a woodworkers' dowel grooving tool, made in the days before readily available dowel. I have, as have many before me, repaired old furniture and often notice that the dowels seemed to be very second-hand and chewed up. perhaps the dowels were made individually by the craftsperson?
> Does anybody have better ideas than mine? What the hell is it?


Looks like and early engine intake/exhaust valve "grinder".


----------

