# Chinese 4 stroke model camshaft repair advice



## M16mdl (Oct 12, 2021)

Hi there. I am new to the forum and do love model engines. I got a m16 Chinese model 4 stroke engine which I run on white gas and MMO. I am really entertained by these things. I’ve put a grand total of 36 hours of run time on this little model. 







After a nice tune on it, the camshaft has started to wear significantly. Making a big pit in the middle of the lobe.






I need some adviceon how to fill this lobe so the valve opens enough to run right. Currently, the valves don’t open enough to let the engine rev up. It’s even at 0 clearance with the rockers.


 When you run it, it just stalls out when you give it throttle. Because the valve doesn’t Open enough to let the huge mix of air and fuel into the cylinder. Thus making it stall out.



Ive 


tried jbweld, however the followers just cut through the JB weld. I’m thinking of some sort of weld to fill the pit that has been worn down. What do you think? The camshaft may be aluminum because of how quickly it wore.

Any questions let me know and please give me some suggestions. Thanks!




__





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Cam issue after v Before ^


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## Chiptosser (Oct 13, 2021)

You should take the cam out of the engine to repair, I don't know of anything to repair the lobe in the engine.
Have the lobes built up with aluminum bronze, I would do both.  Or, have it tig welded. 
You will be able to file the lobes back to shape.  From the looks of the lobe, I would guess the material is mild steel.  You will  most likely have to resurface the face of the lifters. They are most likely gulled.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 13, 2021)

If I were in your shoes I would pull the cam out and have one machined using some good tool steel. It is only a 2 lobe cam so it should be somewhat of an easy job. Either machine the lobes off and make new ones to be pinned on or just make a completely new one piece camshaft.


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## minh-thanh (Oct 13, 2021)

I don't understand why the lobe surface is scratched everywhere, even in non-contact places
Looks like the surface is not good from the start . and not polished


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## M16mdl (Oct 13, 2021)

I think aluminum brazing rods would be a good start


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## M16mdl (Oct 13, 2021)

minh-thanh said:


> I don't understand why the lobe surface is scratched everywhere, even in non-contact places
> Looks like the surface is not good from the start . and not polished



theres china for ya!


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 13, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> I think aluminum brazing rods would be a good start



Maybe if you had a good base but it appears that you have some poor steel. Just bite the bullet and pull it out. Do a quality repair so you wont have to deal with it again.


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## M16mdl (Oct 13, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Maybe if you had a good base but it appears that you have some poor steel. Just bite the bullet and pull it out. Do a quality repair so you wont have to deal with it again.



I don’t have a lathe. I would love to have someone make me a stainless steel camshaft. I could give dimensions. I would also ask for some larger lobes


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## M16mdl (Oct 13, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Maybe if you had a good base but it appears that you have some poor steel. Just bite the bullet and pull it out. Do a quality repair so you wont have to deal with it again.



I’ll also pull the shaft out. I’ll get a caliper and measure the size. The 2 ends are smaller because they have to fit in bearing slots. I’m sure there are some good machinists here that could make me one for a reasonable price. Not that much metal since the thing is so small!


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## ajoeiam (Oct 14, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> I’ll also pull the shaft out. I’ll get a caliper and measure the size. The 2 ends are smaller because they have to fit in bearing slots. I’m sure there are some good machinists here that could make me one for a reasonable price. Not that much metal since the thing is so small!


(Grin) Maybe not much metal but there's a bunch of time taken even in machining a small version. 
Sometimes its far more time consuming to machine a smaller version that to do a larger one. 
A larger version of some items allows one to use tooling that may very much speed the process. 
(Not a given that smaller parts cost more but its also not a given that such are cheaper - - - its all about the time involved!!)


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## gbritnell (Oct 14, 2021)

Contact me at: [email protected] 
We can discuss making a new one.


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## awake (Oct 14, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> I think aluminum brazing rods would be a good start



Aluminum brazing rods would only work at all if the shaft itself is aluminum ... and if the shaft is aluminum, it is the wrong material!


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## M16mdl (Oct 14, 2021)

awake said:


> Aluminum brazing rods would only work at all if the shaft itself is aluminum ... and if the shaft is aluminum, it is the wrong material!



Well I’ve made the decision to get a new one machined. So that’s out of the question. The whole engine is in pieces at the moment and the camshaft is out.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 14, 2021)

I hope your decision involves gbritnell making the new one. You wont find a better man for the job and the quality will be absolute top shelf.


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## M16mdl (Oct 14, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> I hope your decision involves gbritnell making the new one. You wont find a better man for the job and the quality will be absolute top shelf.



I’ll consider it!


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## Mechanicboy (Oct 15, 2021)

I can't understand why the cam shaft was not made of hard steel to example drill rod/silver steel. Bad selected steel as material for cam shaft who are too soft to resist wear from valve lifter. And there is not rotating valve lifter affected by cam shaft to resist wear, also the centerline of the lifters are offset slightly with respect to the cam lobes. This makes *the lifters rotate as the cam turns*, which helps to reduce friction and wear. 

Better to make a new cam shaft of drill rod/silver steel and all surfaces (both cam lobe and valve lifters) polished to resist wear and make the lifters offset to rotate the lifters




.


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## Bazzer (Oct 15, 2021)

Mechanicboy

*"I can't understand why the cam shaft was not made of hard steel to example drill rod/silver steel."*

Simple one word answer *CHINA*


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## Mechanicboy (Oct 15, 2021)

Bazzer said:


> Mechanicboy
> 
> *"I can't understand why the cam shaft was not made of hard steel to example drill rod/silver steel."*
> 
> Simple one word answer *CHINA*



Simply answer: Remnants of steel from the Chinese Cultural Revolution when people tried to produce steel from backyard foundries in their respective homes that must be used up without loss of income.


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## Bazzer (Oct 15, 2021)

You are correct, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards but the desire is not there in consumer items like this engine being made by a start-up company where cost and availability dictates where the next meal comes from.


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## Mechanicboy (Oct 15, 2021)

Bazzer said:


> You are correct, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards but the desire is not there in consumer items like this engine being made by a start-up company where cost and availability dictates where the next meal comes from.



As a communist would ask the buyer: What are you going to use high quality steel for?

Maybe not everyone can buy high quality materials without permits in China.

Here we had Soviet lathes and the day my former friend who worked in a machine shop ordered new gears because the old gears broke in the lathe that was produced in Chelyabinsk. He had to write the application that was sent back from the Soviet authorities and send back to Moscow to fill in what the gears were used for and what purpose etc. Such was the bureaucracy in the communist country and can also apply in communist China.


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## L98fiero (Oct 15, 2021)

Mechanicboy said:


> As a communist would ask the buyer: What are you going to use high quality steel for?
> 
> Maybe not everyone can buy high quality materials without permits in China.


Maybe not everyone can buy high quality materials without permits in China but considering the number of tool and die shops exporting and the size of their manufacturing sector in general, I seriously doubt it, besides, all they'd need would be a medium to high carbon steel, nothing particularly special.

There is though the thing about what people are willing to pay for the end product. As Bazzer pointed out, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards but are you wiling to pay for that quality. The engines are probably built to a price point just like what you'd buy at Walmart.


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## M16mdl (Oct 15, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> Maybe not everyone can buy high quality materials without permits in China but considering the number of tool and die shops exporting and the size of their manufacturing sector in general, I seriously doubt it, besides, all they'd need would be a medium to high carbon steel, nothing particularly special.
> 
> There is though the thing about what people are willing to pay for the end product. As Bazzer pointed out, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards but are you wiling to pay for that quality. The engines are probably built to a price point just like what you'd buy at Walmart.



255$ with a coupon M16 1.6cc Mini 4 Stroke Gasoline Engine Model Vertical Air-cooled Single-cylinder Engine with Wooden Base


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## Mechanicboy (Oct 15, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> Maybe not everyone can buy high quality materials without permits in China but considering the number of tool and die shops exporting and the size of their manufacturing sector in general, I seriously doubt it, besides, all they'd need would be a medium to high carbon steel, nothing particularly special.
> 
> There is though the thing about what people are willing to pay for the end product. As Bazzer pointed out, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards but are you wiling to pay for that quality. The engines are probably built to a price point just like what you'd buy at Walmart.


$300 It is a lot of money to produce an engine with cheap materials that do not keep the quality.  The Chinese are one step ahead of buyers who buy an engine as they did not expect it to be a short-lived joy for buyers so the Chinese expect to sell even more engine at a good profit.

And in addition, it is the wrong construction that causes it to wear down quickly.


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## M16mdl (Oct 15, 2021)

Mechanicboy said:


> $300 It is a lot of money to produce an engine with cheap materials that do not keep the quality.  The Chinese are one step ahead of buyers who buy an engine as they did not expect it to be a short-lived joy for buyers so the Chinese expect to sell even more engine at a good profit.



Regardless, it’s a fun engine. It’s a simple easy to work on thing. When it’s well tuned it always starts up real easy. Just takes a bit of fine tuning. And I’ll get that New camshaft to fix the issue


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## Mechanicboy (Oct 15, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> And I’ll get that New camshaft to fix the issue



See in the post #16 to improve against to wear out the camshaft.


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## M16mdl (Oct 15, 2021)

Mechanicboy said:


> I can't understand why the cam shaft was not made of hard steel to example drill rod/silver steel. Bad selected steel as material for cam shaft who are too soft to resist wear from valve lifter. And there is not rotating valve lifter affected by cam shaft to resist wear, also the centerline of the lifters are offset slightly with respect to the cam lobes. This makes *the lifters rotate as the cam turns*, which helps to reduce friction and wear.
> 
> Better to make a new cam shaft of drill rod/silver steel and all surfaces (both cam lobe and valve lifters) polished to resist wear and make the lifters offset to rotate the lifters
> 
> ...



Believe it or not the original lifters do rotate when running. I had it apart and they do rotate around. Guess even that wasn’t enough to fix the wear LOL


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## Mousetrap (Oct 16, 2021)

A warning to every one, don't waste your money on any Chinese made products, the quality of my Chinese made lathe and milling machine is very poor and I am no orphan, many people have a pile of Chinese garbage in their back yard. It is sad.


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## willray (Oct 16, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> As Bazzer pointed out, the Chinese can make anything they desire to the highest standards...



I see/hear people say this with some regularity, but I've yet to see the evidence of this myself.

It's certainly possible that they can, but are there any circumstances under which they would choose to?  I'm not so sure.  Certainly in consumer goods, it's not a matter of "are you willing to pay them to make it good", it's a matter of "why would we bother to make it good, if the buyers are willing to pay well for crap".  This attitude doesn't seem to stop at consumer goods.

I have (professionally) some rather expensive equipment sourced from China.   While there are certainly tiers above mine, we're talking about $quarter-million bracket biomedical research equipment.  It's just as much a polished turd as the junk you buy from Harbor Freight.

Vastly more effort invested in making it look like it's good, than invested in making it good, and an almost belligerent avoidance of care to details that "don't matter".  Behind the polished face-plates, these machines is as unlike what you'd see if you looked under the hood of a Deckel, Kearney & Trecker, Myford, etc, as you can possibly get.

I find it hard to imagine that this mindset of "screw the buyer" doesn't infect Chinese manufacturing at every level.


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## MrMetric (Oct 16, 2021)

Sometimes it is in the QA cycle too.  Years ago, a large router company that starts with 'C' and sounds like Fricso was making high end routers in China in a factory (well, probably still do because they never learned a lesson from the following experience).  They started getting a bunch of service requests for serial numbers that they couldn't figure out, but the boards looked really good.  Eventually they figured out the problem.  The factory was running a 12 hour shift.  During the day, authentic routers were being made.  After everyone left, a "new" shift came on that made counterfeit routers on the same line (obviously unbeknownst to the product owner).  Same exact line and yet the quality suffered considerably.  As everything in China is ultimately owned by the government, I seriously doubt anyone got into *real* trouble over the whole thing.  The point is... Same exact line, completely different failure rates.... Quality is about reviewing the finished product too.


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## scottyp (Oct 16, 2021)

So then we should expect to see counterfeits of these little engines available soon at half the price.  Serious but not serious. 
 I was surprised and amazed to see that the kerz hit n miss and the up vertical single ( and probably several others) were among the selections.


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## M16mdl (Oct 16, 2021)

scottyp said:


> So then we should expect to see counterfeits of these little engines available soon at half the price.  Serious but not serious.
> I was surprised and amazed to see that the kerz hit n miss and the up vertical single ( and probably several others) were among the selections.



The Chinese hit and miss’s are really good. Because the design is off of the kertzal engines. These things can get people in the hobby for cheap and that’s what I love to much about them.

They have sent me a new camshaft and will arrive eventually. However I will not be installing it.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 16, 2021)

This may end the hobby going forward. Most or all of those plan sets were released to the public so guy's could build them in there garage. They were never intended for commercial use. Now going forward if somebody designs an engine he may choose to keep the plans private rather than have them fall into the hands of people who do work like you see in this thread. I know I wont if I ever do it again. I would be pretty pissed off if it were my designs being used as a commercial endevor.


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## MrMetric (Oct 16, 2021)

Steve.... I think you may be onto something.  There are many ways to kill ourselves... Here is an example: The growth of useless process patents are killing industry in America, IMHO.  When Amazon can patent the 'buy it now' button, that is just stupid.  People don't use patents to protect a product they are producing anymore.  Instead, they patent everything under the sun and then wait for an ability to sue someone.  IBM is notorious for this.  And nothing is ever released.  Three of our largest companies never would have started in today's world.  Microsoft effectively stole MSDOS from Digital Research (and then paid a paltry royalty), Apple was owned by HP by virtue of the fact that Jobs used HP lab assets and parts to build the original Apple (HP decided not to get into the business so they released him), and Warnock/Geshke developed PostScript as employees of Xerox PARC (who also decided not to produce the product, so they gave it to them); this was how Adobe started.  Now, companies will never release anything because it is "ammunition in case we want to sue someone".... It is killing us.

I do have to say, however, that I do find it somewhat interesting that you have the perspective you do, though.  If I'm not mistaken, all of your designs are retained as private  (this is NOT a criticism or a dig, by the way).  I am hoping that when you decide to exit the hobby, you will release those designs to the public.  One of the truly sad things that I see over and over here on HMEM is people wanting to copy something where the owner died years ago.  Yes, I understand copyrights.  And I don't have a problem with that.  I also find it sad, however, when clearly the plans are flapping in the wind and will never be pursued. I think it is generally a pipe dream that the legitimate owner will ever pursue the sale of the plans/parts/etc, if they even *know* they are the legitimate owner.  In a way, I think this is killing the hobby too.  It may be *legal* but we can legislate ourselves to death too.  HMEM is a dying breed, unfortunately.  I'm probably on the younger side of the group here and I'm no spring chicken.

In the end, I would encourage all of the copyright owners that have decided they no longer want to pursue the commercial rights of their designs to release them to the public domain so that we may all benefit.  The work you have all done is greatly appreciated and the legacy of that work can be enjoyed by all.  Yes, this is an impassioned plea.

In the end, software has pioneered the concept of open source licensing which limits comercialization.  Hopefully engine designs can be the same.... That said, it *does* require a certain adherence of those views to work.  China is not noted (at all) for respecting intellectual property, so I can easily see them commercializing a public domain item in full knowledge that it is in violation.  The best that can be done there is that Customs confiscates and destroys the items on import... But that is tenuous, I agree.


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## djswain1 (Oct 17, 2021)

Another way of looking at it is that a commercially produced engine based on plans in the public domain is an affirmation of the design and plans. The availability of these assembled models means that the finished engine is available to a larger audience who may not have the equipment/time/knowledge etc required to build one from plans. In turn it is likely that a percentage of purchasers will start to tinker with their engines and in the process find their way into the the model engineering hobby.
I'm not condoning the way the Chinese do this sort of thing but trying to look on the brightside of it.
Cheers, Dave


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## littlelocos (Oct 17, 2021)

djswain1 said:


> Another way of looking at it is that a commercially produced engine based on plans in the public domain is an affirmation of the design and plans.


Dave, The problem is that neither the Kerzel or the Upshur designs were in the public domain.  The Kerzel plans were explicitely released for non-commercial use and the Chinese violated that.  Dave has addressed this previously.
Todd.


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## littlelocos (Oct 17, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> This may end the hobby going forward. Most or all of those plan sets were released to the public so guy's could build them in there garage. They were never intended for commercial use. Now going forward if somebody designs an engine he may choose to keep the plans private rather than have them fall into the hands of people who do work like you see in this thread. I know I wont if I ever do it again. I would be pretty pissed off if it were my designs being used as a commercial endevor.


Steve,
I agree wholeheartedly.  As someone who is in the business of supporting this hobby, I've worried about this for years.  As long as folks aren't worried about where their stuff comes from the cheap knock-offs from the Near and Far East will continue to be popular.  Even for those of us that are in the business, like I am, there are little to no protections.  I've blocked countries from purchasing our items on eBay, but still realize that there are companies in the US that will purchase items for them.
Thanks for speaking up,
Todd.


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## L98fiero (Oct 17, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> This may end the hobby going forward. Most or all of those plan sets were released to the public so guy's could build them in there garage. They were never intended for commercial use. Now going forward if somebody designs an engine he may choose to keep the plans private rather than have them fall into the hands of people who do work like you see in this thread. I know I wont if I ever do it again. I would be pretty pissed off if it were my designs being used as a commercial endevor.


FWIW, as disappointing as it is, I don't think you can stop it. I've seen products in this hobby as well as others where the designer would not sell the plans or the product into China, getting around that is as simple as someone ordering a set of plans or the item in the country you are from and shipping it to China, India or wherever. Frankly, it happens in industry too, design something, even patent it, and unless you have the millions required to defend even a patent, it will be stolen but then, that's capitalism, even in China and no, some of the larger ones are but most companies in China aren't owned by the government.


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## GreenTwin (Oct 17, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> This may end the hobby going forward. Most or all of those plan sets were released to the public so guy's could build them in there garage. They were never intended for commercial use. Now going forward if somebody designs an engine he may choose to keep the plans private rather than have them fall into the hands of people who do work like you see in this thread. I know I wont if I ever do it again. I would be pretty pissed off if it were my designs being used as a commercial endevor.


I have been publishing many of my drawings/designs as I get them complete, and have a note on the drawings that they are copyrighted, and for personal non-commercial use only.
Obviously people around the world will do whatever with any plans that they find.
One has to decide whether to release plans or not.

I don't like people using my designs for commercial use, but having the designs vanish into obscurity is less appealing.
I have redrawn some of my dad's designs in CAD, and published those in open-source (free) format.
Had I not gotten access to my dad's engine drawings after his death, those designs would have vanished forever.

Most of the Bernays that can be seen on GrabCad used my drawings, that were derived from my dad's drawings.
My dad's No.21 can also be found on GrabCad.
I must say it is cool to see one's drawings morphed into 3D objects, and appearing on the web.
My intent is to advance the hobby in any way I can, and perhaps raise it to new levels that have never been seen before.

The world has become a very strange place of late.
I am still plan on publishing drawings for everything I build, and posting them for free in open-source non-commercial places around the web.
I posted full drawings for the green twin (the one in my avatar) in the magazine where it was published.
I suspect copies may show up one day for sale; nothing I can do about it; I am still going to build engines and post drawings for them regardless.

It is what it is.

.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 17, 2021)

Did that camshaft ever get fixed? Sorry guys but we have completely gone off the rails in this thread. As to not further tread on the subject I'm making this my last post. My apologies to M16mdl.


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## MrMetric (Oct 17, 2021)

To be clear, and  admire, a person's desire and ability to design an engine and then make a small business out of supplying either plans or kits.  It is that transition from hobby to business, and more than one large entity has come from that.  I doubt any significant business will come about from model motors, but it doesn't really matter.  In the end, it can just be hobby income and it is still a protected right.

I also applaud you greentwin (and others) for making your plans public if you have no intention of marketing them.  I guess there are really only two choices. Knowing that China is devoid of business ethics, when you release a set of plans publicly  you do so with the knowledge that you very well could see commercialization from China of your work.  Frankly, even if you *sell* the plans/kits, as Todd has eluded to with his eBay sales restrictions,  you run that risk. The other choice is that you keep everything you've ever done close to the chest and never let anyone know about it.  Honestly, I think we all benefit from one another, and I hope that the choice is to release things when you are "done with them."  Stipulate it in your will, if you want, so that your heirs will know.  We will all thank you for the contribution.  And, we will put to rest the extensive comments about the copyright conundrum.

Steve/Todd... I hope you haven't interpreted my comments as condoning illicit copying of your plans as you are actively marketing them.  And, yes, legally you have the right to restrict even after you cease marketing them.  I just hope that you'll not go down that route unless you are selling the businesses to someone else that will sell them, etc.  I *am* in your corner, and I have long looked at both your products.  I come close to pulling the trigger frequently,  but haven't done so yet.  I will eventually....

Back to you GreenTwin... Yes, it can be fun to see morphing of something after it has been released.  In the software world one need only look at Linux as a prime example of what *can* happen in the public domain. We all benefit from Torvald's  actions, and I *know* Linux has progressed far far beyond what he originally had. If I were he, I'd be thrilled to see what it has become.  And if you don't think we have benefited from his actions, consider this... There is a *very* good chance that the servers being used to host HMEM are running Linux.

On edit: (posted while Steve was adding his own comments).... yes, I think I shall stop too.  it really is a disservice to the original poster to have hijacked his thread.  To him, I extend my apologies.... I also extend a suggestion... It is great that you are enamored with how the engine works.  You are learning something and that is what life is about.... I would like to encourage you to consider getting a set of plans and try your hand building something.  You may fall in love with the hobby.  There are a myriad of books, free plans, or paid content such as by some of the vendors that have posted even in this thread.  All are wonderful resources.  So.... Join on in! We welcome all new members to the hobby!


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## gbritnell (Oct 17, 2021)

When one of the Chinese miniature engine builders started out (no names mentioned) he made a water cooled type hit and miss. Ok the engine has been around forever in both full and model sizes. But as this builder expanded his line some of the designs took on rather close resemblances to engines designed by people that were in the hobby who built them for their own pleasure and some of the drawing sets were made available either freely or for a fee. 
I visit several model engineering forums and on one of them (no names mentioned) a Chinese fellow is a regular visitor, advertising his wares and new designs. One of "his designs" was an exact copy of my Holt engine in a smaller scale. When I say exact that's what I mean. I contacted the owner/administrator of the forum and told him of my concerns. He agreed with me and notified the Chinese builder that if he was going to market this engine he should at least give credit for it's origin. Well this fellow then comes up with every answer under the sun, the pictures are on the internet, it wasn't my design to begin with etc. etc. The forum owner also notified him that if he continued to do such things he would be banned from posting on the forum. Well that didn't last long. 
Everything I have designed and built I have made drawings for and offer them to prospective builders for a reasonable fee. I guess it's human nature to want something for nothing. At one time I would build tiny hit and miss engines and sell them for a reasonable hourly fee. Anyone who knows my work knows the quality of it. Then came the Chinese CNC cheap hit and miss engines and multitudes of people jumped onto the bandwagon and bought them. The main reason was they were cheap, just like every other product out of China. That's the problem with where we are today in the rest of the world. People want the cheapest product they can buy. 
As far as these Chinese engines go I don't even want to hear the excuse that it gets people into the hobby that don't have the equipment or the skill. All you are is collectors! In the 30's and 40's magazines like Popular Science and Popular Mechanics would publish drawings for engines that fellows would build with a drill press and files, and they ran. So don't tell me it gets you into the hobby. At what point were you going to buy machinery to get into the metal hobby?
As far as when I'm ready  to leave this place I should place my drawings into the public domain, hogwash! Somebody will just take them and make money from my work without any credit going to me. It's already taking place so I don't want to hear any defense of it.
gbritnell


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## GreenTwin (Oct 17, 2021)

George-

I hear what you are saying.
You are sort of up there on a level of your own, and that makes it worse when people pick off your stuff, given the extraordinary quality of what you do.
I don't have answers for it all (sometimes there are no good answers).

I am still going to publish drawings for every engine I design, as I finish them.
I want the next generation to have a variety of drawings (in free open-source format), in case they want to get into the hobby.

I am not going to get distracted by what is going on in other parts of the world, regardless of how frustrating it may be.
That would be like cutting of my foot to spite my leg.

.


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## roncohudd (Oct 17, 2021)

Mousetrap said:


> A warning to every one, don't waste your money on any Chinese made products, the quality of my Chinese made lathe and milling machine is very poor and I am no orphan, many people have a pile of Chinese garbage in their back yard. It is sad.


I've been running production and fun projects on my Grizzly lathe for over 10 years. No problem at all. It's a 14x40 and the only thing that I don't like is that I have to change gears to make threads.


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## mrehmus (Oct 17, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> I don’t have a lathe. I would love to have someone make me a stainless steel camshaft. I could give dimensions. I would also ask for some larger lobes


SS is not a good choice for cams. Use 4130 and just harden the lobes themselves. No need to harden the shaft and that will almost always cause it to warp. Cut the cam lobes to their major diameter and then heat each lobe red hot and dump in water. We mount our camshafts in a drill press (turn slow) to both heat and chill the lobes. Grind into shape afterwards. 4130 will only harden to about 55 Rockwell and will not need tempering. Works great for V-8's that have been running for years.
BTW, 36 hours is a fair amount of time on a model engine.


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## M16mdl (Oct 17, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> Did that camshaft ever get fixed? Sorry guys but we have completely gone off the rails in this thread. As to not further tread on the subject I'm making this my last post. My apologies to M16mdl.



Hey no problem. I’m about to send it to essentric and he can get it done for me.


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## awake (Oct 18, 2021)

MrMetric said:


> ... a large router company that starts with 'C' and sounds like Fricso ...



I thought Crisco was a brand of vegetable shortening?


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## djswain1 (Oct 18, 2021)

littlelocos said:


> Dave, The problem is that neither the Kerzel or the Upshur designs were in the public domain.  The Kerzel plans were explicitely released for non-commercial use and the Chinese violated that.  Dave has addressed this previously.
> Todd.


Hi Todd 
I didn't realise they weren't public. I know of the names Kerzel and Upshur but that is about it.
I've but an Elner's Wobbler from Elmer Verburgs plans  a Unit Steam Engine wobbler from their kit, a PM Resesrch mill engine from their kit and my latest build I've started which will test my limited skills is a Jerry Howell Powerhouse built from plans purchased from his son. 
I expect in the future my builds will also be from a mixture of plans either purchased or those freely available and kits.
Cheers, Dave.


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## djswain1 (Oct 18, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> Hey no problem. I’m about to send it to essentric and he can get it done for me.


Glad your getting it sorted 
Cheers, Dave.


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## coulsea (Oct 18, 2021)

Lubrication is important in these small models, they are not really designed to be used for long periods of time, 68 hours is a long time, most of my models don't get used for more than a couple of minutes at a time.
I will share my plans and knowledge with anybody here because we have a common interest and its a bit late for me to invent the internal combustion engine.
My first model IC engine was a Chinese Webster and I have built 11 engines since then, so if Mr Websters goal was to promote home model engine making he has done well. I don't support blatant misuse of plans but it has been going on forever and it is not going to stop.
I have some full size Australian engines from the 1920s that are a copy of American fuller and johnson engines and no consideration or acknowledgment was ever gives.


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## Bazzer (Oct 19, 2021)

roncohudd said:


> I've been running production and fun projects on my Grizzly lathe for over 10 years. No problem at all. It's a 14x40 and the only thing that I don't like is that I have to change gears to make threads.



Yes and there are millions of people in China doing the same thing as you, there is always a satisfied customer somewhere for a cheap piece of equipment.

Some people get satisfaction from using a really nice piece of machinery to turn out high quality parts but millions don't.


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## GreenTwin (Oct 19, 2021)

My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.

I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.

I also have a pristine Myford ML7, and I certainly appreciate the quality of this lathe, but my Grizzly does the day-in day-out grunt work for the bulk of my projects.

If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
If you are on a tight budget, don't underestimate what a Grizzly lathe can do.
Don't mistake ugly for non-functional.  A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.

Just my thoughts.

.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 19, 2021)

68 hours shouldn't have worn this camshaft. I have at least double that time on the peewee and there is maybe scuff Mark's at best. It was just poor material and workmanship. The new one should last hundreds of hours even if it not hardened. 

Have you made arrangements to have the new part made?


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## Bazzer (Oct 19, 2021)

GreenTwin said:


> My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
> Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.
> 
> I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.
> ...


I agree with no right and wrong way, but in a way you seem to keep the Myford for 'Best' work and that tells something about the Grizzly.

I just don't see the point when there is good/better American and European machines on the second hand market.


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## GreenTwin (Oct 19, 2021)

I do tend to lean towards 2nd hand US/European equipment, which is why I bought the Myford.
I inherited the Grizzly lathe and mill, and so they were free.

For someone without equipment and looking, I would look for used US/European equipment first.

.


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## PeterDRG (Oct 19, 2021)

Keith Appleton does some excellent YouTube videos on small engines and, in at least one, discusses these Microcosum engines.


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## OrangeAlpine (Oct 20, 2021)

I cut my machining teeth in high school on worn out WWII USA machinery.  Cincinnati, LeBlond, Monarch and South Bend were the names of the day.  Yes, great American equipment.  The Monarch was a 16" fat girl and still in great shape, so I know what quality is all about.  But I got into the hobby with a Chinese 12 X 36 because I could buy a decent lathe for little more than the price of a piece of crap.  25 years later, the lathe is still going strong.  Given the choice, I'll take a good, not great, quality Chinese lathe over worn out American.  
Bill


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## willray (Oct 20, 2021)

GreenTwin said:


> If you can afford it, get the good old equipment.
> Don't mistake ugly for non-functional. A Grizzly lathe is a highly functional machine.
> Personal choices for each individual; there is no right and wrong way to make an engine, and there is no right and wrong equipment.



I must disagree.  There is wrong equipment.  The wrong equipment is equipment for which you have paid more than the satisfaction or production capability it brings you.

That's not necessarily to say cheap, ugly, or even less effective equipment is "wrong equipment".  If you have less expensive equipment and it solves your problems or makes you happy, it's the right equipment.  If you have more expensive equipment and it doesn't, it's the wrong equipment.

China has a bad habit of producing equipment designed to convince you that it'll do something that it won't, resulting in a lot of Chinese products being the wrong equipment.   On the other hand, quite a few people invest in "good old equipment" and then are disappointed because despite the added cost, the mystique of the "good old equipment" somehow doesn't translate into better results.  That's the wrong equipment too.

I've got both varieties.

Anyone who sneers axiomatically at Grizzly, or other Chinese equipment, is applying their own satisfaction/happiness evaluation to someone else's happiness and satisfaction.  That'll rarely go well.


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## Richard Hed (Oct 20, 2021)

GreenTwin said:


> My dad used his Grizzly 12x36 lathe to make 38 engines of various types, and I continue to use the same lathe without modification 10 years later.
> Say what you want about a Grizzly lathe but they are a workhorse, and can do accurate work with no problems.
> 
> I wish they were made here as much as anyone, but the price enabled my dad to get into the hobby, which he may not have otherwise done.
> ...


Yes, I've got a Grizz G4003G--it's a great machine.  There are some small quibbling things like the cover to the gear change section does not have a swing on it but for what it is capable to doing is great.  I have a small enco that I consider just a boat anchor.


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## M16mdl (Nov 8, 2021)

stevehuckss396 said:


> 68 hours shouldn't have worn this camshaft. I have at least double that time on the peewee and there is maybe scuff Mark's at best. It was just poor material and workmanship. The new one should last hundreds of hours even if it not hardened.
> 
> Have you made arrangements to have the new part made?



Yes I have with essentrick. Currently still on its way to him to look over.


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## Eccentric (Nov 24, 2021)

Guess what finally showed up in my mailbox today.  My first plan of attack will be to measure and create a drawing of the camshaft.  

We are so used to next day or 2 day shipping from Amazon, we balk at having to wait for a month for a package sent from the east coast to the west coast (of the US) by USPS.  But it made it. I don't want to get political, but why.... (A General Accountability Office (GAO) report found that USPS lost *$69 billion* over the previous 11 fiscal years—including $3.9 billion in fiscal year 2018. Then, a forecasted $6.6 billion loss turned into an $8.9 billion loss in 2019. )  Oh, I am sorry, I said I didn't want to get political.

I will use this thread to document my fabrication of this camshaft, I am thinking to use 01 tool steel, then harden and temper it.  I am open to suggestions.


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## Majormallock (Nov 25, 2021)

A couple of years ago I  made a Hoglet, similar looking camshaft, I used DIN 1.2210 / 115CrV3 steel hardened and tempered. It doesn't distort with the treatment and polishes up well. In the UK we call it silver steel.  I used the reverse boring bar method in the vertical mill, cutting on the inside.


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 25, 2021)

And make the valve lifter to rotate in same time under lifting the valve lifter to keep cam shaft life lasting. Also make cam off centered to center of the valve lifter to force the valve lifter to rotate.


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## Eccentric (Nov 25, 2021)

I have measured the camshaft and created a drawing.  The dimensions with three significant digits are actual measurements, while the ones with one significant digit are estimated.  I think I will be able to create a functional part using 5/16" drill rod with hardening and tempering.

I could not discern a difference in the profiles of the two lobes so will go with a common lobe design.  I do not know the direction of rotation or which is exhaust and intake lobe anyway. I measured a 100 degree separation between the lobes, I am used to seeing a bit more, but the nose radius is also larger than I have seen so I think this will allow the 100 degree lobe separation.






















I will provide another update when I start making chips.


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 25, 2021)

Eccentric said:


> I have measured the camshaft and created a drawing.  The dimensions with three significant digits are actual measurements, while the ones with one significant digit are estimated.  I think I will be able to create a functional part using 5/16" drill rod with hardening and tempering.



Look at the post #16 why you need the valve lifter must be rotating in same time the cam lobe is lifting the valve lifter...


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## Eccentric (Nov 25, 2021)

Mechanicboy said:


> Look at the post #16 why you need the valve lifter must be rotating in same time the cam lobe is lifting the valve lifter...



I don't disagree, however, I have been tasked with fabricating a replacement hardened camshaft.  I do not have the engine with its lifters and so do not feel I would be able to redesign the lifter/camshaft geometry to incorporate the desired valve lifter rotation you describe.


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## M16mdl (Nov 26, 2021)

Eccentric said:


> I don't disagree, however, I have been tasked with fabricating a replacement hardened camshaft.  I do not have the engine with its lifters and so do not feel I would be able to redesign the lifter/camshaft geometry to incorporate the desired valve lifter rotation you describe.



The lifters on the original camshaft (while being small), would actually rotate. So if you follow the same design you should be fine. I needed to send the lifters but was in a rush. I will see if I can send you some form of dimensions for the lifters and I could sand them down to size if too big.






Also, the lifters need to have more lift than what’s on that shaft (in the non worn spots) to open the valves more. The engine always needs the valves in perfect adjustment, otherwise it will not rev up and flow nice. So the lift that they open must be more than stock







the current lift is insufficient for this model. Something like the stated (future) with more lift to open the valves up more would open the engine up and let it run like it should. Let me know what you think. Thanks


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## Mechanicboy (Nov 27, 2021)

M16mdl said:


> The lifters on the original camshaft (while being small), would actually rotate.



After you has received the cam shaft and valve lifters, hone carefully on the cam where the green area is showed to a bit angle to not have contact with the lifter and check the lifter is really rotating each time the lifter is lifting by cam when the engine is running. The lifter need the large disc than to cover the wide of the cam lobe to make less wear on cam and in same time rotate the lifter.


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## Eccentric (Nov 27, 2021)

This is an update on the progress machining the new Chinese camshaft.  It took me a couple of days to create and test the G code program.  I cut several cam profiles from wooden dowel before I used the drill rod (silver steel) seen below.  A couple of things of note in the machining:  the 1/8" ball end mill is offset to the side by .125" so the edge of the tool does most of the cutting and not the center of the tool.  Also the direction of rotation of the work piece is clockwise from this view.  This is done so the cutting of the fresh metal is brought to bear on the side of the cutter instead of the bottom.





*Second Roughing Pass*

I am removing .025" of material both axially and radially on each pass, the step-over is .025" for the roughing passes and .0075" for the finishing pass.  There are three roughing passes and a single finishing pass.





*Half way through the final finishing pass*



Below are a couple of shots of the completed cam lobe machining. 





*The lobe dimensions are spot on.*







The work piece, collet and collet chuck will be mounted in the lathe and the balance of the machining will be performed.  Then some finishing work, polishing, and  hardening.


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## M16mdl (Nov 27, 2021)

Eccentric said:


> This is an update on the progress machining the new Chinese camshaft.  It took me a couple of days to create and test the G code program.  I cut several cam profiles from wooden dowel before I used the drill rod (silver steel) seen below.  A couple of things of note in the machining:  the 1/8" ball end mill is offset to the side by .125" so the edge of the tool does most of the cutting and not the center of the tool.  Also the direction of rotation of the work piece is clockwise from this view.  This is done so the cutting of the fresh metal is brought to bear on the side of the cutter instead of the bottom.
> 
> View attachment 131395
> 
> ...



Great job! Love seeing the progress


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## Eccentric (Nov 27, 2021)

Several Pictures at the lathe:


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## Eccentric (Nov 28, 2021)

The final step is to heat treat.  I take the camshaft and wrap it up in wire as shown below, I then make a slurry of isopropyl alcohol and boric acid.  I heat the camshaft and dip it in the slurry, reheating  and dipping a few times until I have a nice coating of boric acid on the part.  Then I heat it to bright red hot and quench in oil.






Below is the part after quench,  it is free of scale.  I boil up some water and rinse off the boric acid.






Finally I do a file scratch test.  The file glides off the new part without making a mark, but when I do the same test on the old one, the file cuts easily.  This notch is indicated by the red circle below on the old part.











Well that's it. I'll call 'er done.

As Joe Pie says, "I'm out."


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## jimmor49 (Nov 29, 2021)

Eccentric said:


> The final step is to heat treat.  I take the camshaft and wrap it up in wire as shown below, I then make a slurry of isopropyl alcohol and boric acid.  I heat the camshaft and dip it in the slurry, reheating  and dipping a few times until I have a nice coating of boric acid on the part.  Then I heat it to bright red hot and quench in oil.
> 
> View attachment 131431
> 
> ...


Did you temper after heat treatment?


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## Eccentric (Nov 29, 2021)

Yes, I did temper after heat treat, but just a bit, a very light straw.  I am willing to get a bit more hardness and live with a bit more brittleness.  A camshaft does not experience the "striking" blows that a cutter does so I figured this was a good balance.


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## Zeb (Nov 29, 2021)

Camshaft lobes and lifters typically have the highest contact forces on an engine. It is said in legends that oil turns to the consistency of nylon under those pressures. That run time seems high for that little engine, so not too shabby. I'd probably be cleaning those lobes before each run and applying a thin coat of assembly lube.

I almost started out with a Chinese knockoff on my first but went with a US made casting kit instead. I think if I had no previous exposure, I'd do what you did M16mdl. Running it til it broke would provide one or two problems to solve at a time, as is the case here.

Now I'm all over supporting casting kits made in 'Murica and Blighty, even with the price. That casting grain with a machine finish is delicious. Like that warm analog glow from my record player during Christmas season...or something like that.


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## mrehmus (Nov 30, 2021)

I have a friend who bought an engine and then started making a part and replacing it on the engine. By the time all the parts were replaced, he was a fairly good engine builder and went on to build many engines.


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