# Lets Talk 6X4 Bandsaws !



## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

Hi Guys,

I promised that I would do a write up on some of the modifications that I did on my Taiwanese 6X4 bandsaw that I acquired  from an engineering company that I've done work for and they let me go and raid their scrap box.

The bandsaw was hidden away in a remote store room, having been discarded as no good !  In actual fact at some time in its life it had fallen on its back, breaking the hinge pivot arm, to which someone had tried, badly, to do a plate repair.  The machine also had a 1 Hp Brooks motor fitted.  Presumably because the original motor had either failed or been damaged when the machine fell over.

The three pictures below show the original broken hinge pivot.  I obtained a new one from "Machine Mart" here in the UK, I also purchased a new gearbox pulley from them.  A very reasonable £12 pounds inc carriage and VAT for both items.











Here you can see the bodged repair.  The blade arm wobbled all over the place, no hope of a square cut !





Screws were put in the sides to attempt to strengthen the repair.





The new hinge pivot arm before being painted.

The bandsaw was on a tinplate stand that had seen better days !

I didn't take any pictures of the machine when I got it, however I did take a lot during the complete refurbishment.

I designed and built a new square tubular frame stand for it including putting it on 75 mm swivel castors, two of them having a braking mechanism.  Which is handy to stop it wandering off in use.















The steel that I used was 1" square 10 gauge wall thickness.  I used offcuts of the square tube for the original support bolt placement going through the cast iron bandsaw frame.





I used some pieces of scrap 3 mm steel plate with slotted holes just in case I hadn't quite got the holes in the right place.  In fact it was a good thing because the holes in the casters were a slightly different spacing for the ones without brakes.


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## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

Next part:

One of the things that needed fixing was the motor mounting plate ! Again basically a bit of bent tin which simply didn't fit the motor mountings properly.










As can be seen here placed on top of the piece of 3 mm steel plate that I used to replace it. As can be seen it is a little bit larger in size in order to accommodate the Brooks motor's larger frame size.





This is the new motor mounting plate with the holes drilled and threaded M8 to match the Brooks motor mountings.





A picture of the Brooks motor before being painted.





This is the bandsaw body being set up on my Chinese copy of an Optimum BF20LB mill, ready for milling the slot on the far side.





This is the slot before being milled, you can see the cut in the bottom where the bandsaw blade has cut into it.  The original sides of this slot are tapered inwards, so I milled the sides square so that I could fit a solid piece of steel in there.





This is how it looks after milling and fitting the blanking piece.  It is simply pressed in place with a coating of super glue !  I was going to use Locktite but didn't have any to hand at that point in time.





The finished and painted bandsaw body ready to fit onto the new stand.


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## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

Part three:

When it came to re-assembling the blade arm I discovered that the support guides for the blade tensioning wheel were very sloppy !  In fact the guides were made using 4 mm thick material running in a 5.5 mm slot.  I replaced them with skimmed down 6 mm plate.










These two pictures are of the original guide plates resting in the slots intended to support the blade tensioning wheel.





This picture is of the new guide plates that I made to replace them.
Now the wheel is held square without any side to side wobble and the blade tracking mechanism works properly.

It you look carefully you can see that the gap is a fraction wider at the bottom than where the wheel spindle is !  This is because the tracking is set by a screw pushing the block holding the wheel spindle away from the mounting, relying on the blade tension to pull it back.  In this way the blade is caused to track on the wheels properly.

I'll cover some of the other modifications later !  Its dinner time for me now.


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## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

Part four:

Following on from the last post, 





These are the new plates drilled and ready to fit, replacing the ones shown laying on the frame above.










This picture shows the new plates fitted and now supporting the tension wheel spindle.





Another very useful modification !  Replacing the hex head bolts holding the blade guides with hex cap screws and a new thick washer.  Originally the fastenings were hard to get to tighten properly when setting the blade square.

I had to file a little off the sides in order to get enough twist to set the blade dead vertical.  I also has to file the face under the new thick washers flat, there were casting marks on the face causing the washers to cock to one side or the other.  This simple change makes setting the blade much easier.

Also in this picture you can see another modification that I made to the vise and one that I made to the arm stop.

The arm stop has a small loose block sat on top !  The idea being to prevent the blade resting on the added piece when not in use.  This has since been replaced with a hollow cap because I kept knocking it off.





One of the other useful things is extended vise jaws.  Not only do they allow me to cut thin pieces but also allow me to clamp material between the jaws on top of them.  This improves the cutting of wide flat plate by increasing the blade cutting angle.















I also added a threaded hole for a screw which saves me having to look for a packing piece of the right size when cutting short or thin pieces.

I drilled the vise plates and used M6 hex socket countersunk screws to fasten the new extension plates to the vise jaws.

More later:


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## goldstar31 (Jun 12, 2021)

I agree with the us eful extension and added  a  long bolt at the rear to keep things parallrl ehen cutting short lenths.
Very Low tech but it works


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

Hi Guys,

Part five:

I found the drawing that I did for the stand !





You will need to enlarge the picture to be able to see the dimensions, for some reason they have become very small but are fine on the DFX drawing.










This is the screw that I made for the jaw spacer.  It is simply a short length of M8 threaded rod with a knurled aluminum knob Locktited to one end. 










During the refurbishment I measured the amount of run out of both pulleys and only found that there was a thou on them both.  A quick clean with de-greaser was all that was needed to clean the blade track.





This is the new motor mounting plate after painting and having decent hinges made and fitted.

One side effect that I found after making a hydraulic drop damper was the counter balance !  The weight of the motor and the fact that it is mounted slightly further back almost perfectly balances the blade arm weight with only a light loading applied from the spring adjustment screw.  In fact without the spring attached there is only 14 Ibs of dead weight measured under the blade.





This is the almost finished bandsaw fully painted and ready for action.





I had to buy a new "A" section belt for the saw because the motor is further back, but there is absolutely no hint of any risk of it falling on its back as it would on the original stand.





A close up without the arm cover fitted giving a better view of the new blade guide bearings and pivot arm hinge.  Notice the white plastic spacer on the right side of the hinge.  I found that the blade arm could drift from one side to the other, so I made a spacer using "Nylon 60" plastic to prevent that.  This also means that I can now get consistent length cuts when using the length stop.

I also spent a good deal of time not only ensuring the the blade cuts as square in both planes as I can make it, but I also made sure that the vise is square to the blade as well.  I can now cut within a few thou of dead square without requiring a clean up of the material being cut.

Well its been a long post but I think that is about it !  I do have many other pictures and I'm happy to post them if anybody wants to see a particular feature.  Comments welcome.

Thanks for looking !


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## bazmak (Jun 13, 2021)

Just seen this thread and really enjoyed going thru it.Congratulations on a great job well done
This is the work i love doing.Getting a broken down item for next to nothing and bringing it back to life
especially if its something you need and will use.Does it have a talble for the vertical position ?


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

Hi John( et al)

                    Digressing  somewhat,  I have never found a saisfactory method of  holding down  those large, round sort endes of metal.  Perhaps you or other readers might  provide information thatI certainly do not posses.

Expanding the topc,  I am wanting to  change the rotating workhead from a sinle graduated casting to the newer TWO bits of Mild Steel.  I was able to obtain a short bit of 'round; but have to split it into two bits.

Therwise,  it means making a special 'circulsr dovetail cut around the perfery of the block and it requires a rather awkward cutting tool.

I CAN do it, it follows the words and music of the Model Engineer's Workshop Manual description by Geo Thomas of  how he constructed his small ungeared rotary table.
That machining is where the tool and cutter grinder such as the Stent and the Quorn possess 'certain advantages' which other lesser tools do not possess.

Worried Blue Eyes


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

Hello Norman, 

not exactly sure what your problem is. You want to cut a disc into two discs? I just made this mock up setup. (not my idea saw it somewhere).






Put some square block, in this case my angle plate in the clamp of the machine. 
Then use a C-clamp to clamp the disc onto the angle plate. 
You will have to rotate the part a few times. 
Then cut however deep you can go without cutting into the clamp. Avoid clamping the gap, packing or leaving enough material in the middle.

Greetings Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

I just remembered where I saw it. The lady explains it worth watching in my opinion. 14:30 the clamping starts. 



Cheers Timo


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> 
> Here you can see the bodged repair.  The blade arm wobbled all over the place, no hope of a square cut !
> ...



Seems you had good luck that you could find this spare part (very cheap) If it would be a car, you would have spent that much just for the parts number . I wonder would it have been possible to solder the fracture? (not for 12 obvoiusly)
Would you have manufactured a new part otherwise?

Greetings Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

Timo
             Thank you for your replies.

Might I respectfully comment that  that the Rotary table' video is not applicable. I have and have made numerous rotary tables and all that I expressed was where the technique for the eventual \workhead' on my old Quorn and rthe new Mk3- still as a kit. You have  consequuently 'missed the point.
I have what , conceivavb;y be regarded as 'rotary tables' are on my Stent and in Mark1 Form already pn the Quorn and my Deckel SO close has the built in facility.
So let me return to the Problem which I eaised.

Like BaronJ, I have a Typical 'Raiwanese' 6. x4 metal cutting saw and  you are again decr ibing YOUR solution to your problrm but -- NOT mine and actually for what must be thousands of iother users.
The fixed casting which normally holds materials in a vise/vice does NOT extend- to hold anything away from the vice itself.

I and the thousands of other 6 x 4 users want a solution which applies to their machine-- and noyt anyone elses;s.
Therefore I look forward to what might be the answer to my problem.

Speaking again, getting two bits of metal to do the job is simple and cheap. Cutting two bits of round metal does NOT require changing a machine to do it.
I can only apologise if my comments might be somewhat offensoive but I actually gave John Baron a part complete set of Mk1 castings beause I had and still have no use for them nor find the machined onne on my working Quorn suitable to my future requirements.
So My apologies if there if difficulties between us might cause disagreement ot inded friction.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Timo
> Thank you for your replies.
> 
> Might I respectfully comment that  that the Rotary table' video is not applicable. I have and have made numerous rotary tables and all that I expressed was where the technique for the eventual \workhead' on my old Quorn and rthe new Mk3- still as a kit. You have  consequuently 'missed the point.
> ...



Hello ,

I was already fearing that I missed the point. It happens to me too, that I fail to explain my problem. Sometimes I even get unpatient and angry about the presumably "wrong" answers.  

I gave it a go, to guess what I thought might be your problem. I put the setup on my machine to show what I am trying to say. 
( The photo I just made for the post, to explain what I tried to say).
There is only one minute 14:30 to 15:30 were the setup is explained, it only happened to be in a video about rotary table adapers. (coincidence)

Maybe someone finds the setup useful anyway.

Greetings Timo


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

Hi Guys,

I'm not actually sure quite what you mean Norman !  Timo's solution works only until the blade gets nipped by the clamping pressure.





Fitting a block in the blade gap allows support past the point of cutting, also extending the existing vise jaws allows you to grip material that is quite thin, but the maximum diameter is limited to about 3.5" simply due to the height of the vise jaws.

My way round that limitation is to use a "V" block stood on end. True you get a gap under the work with a steel "V" block, so a wooden one allows you to reduce the centre height.  I also use an angle plate to ensure that the material is square to the blade.  Once the material is secured in the vise I remove the angle plate.

Norman I hope that this solves your issue with cutting a piece off a short end !


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## harborfreight8x12 (Jun 13, 2021)

I have a couple of pictures of my Harbor Freight 6x4 bandsaw.  I made plastic cover for the gearbox so that I could always see the lube level, since the first bronze worm gear was destroyed by lack of gear lube.  Also, my wife's idea, I mounted the bandsaw on a heavy duty two drawer file cabinet on a Harbor Freight furniture dolly.  Been happy ever since.


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the pictures.   At least it won't fall over backwards when you move it !

I've also toyed with the idea of putting a clear plexiglass cover on the gearbox.  I also notice that the worm in yours is steel !  The one in mine is bronze with a steel pinion gear driving the blade.  The top up hole is a nice idea as well.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

Hello everybody,

another setup, that no one asked me to post. I post it anyway. Presumably only works on blue machines. (sorry for the owners of green machines  )
The hypothetical problem at hand. Cutting a disc from the 20mm left over of 1" rod. (I made the left over extra to be able to make the fotos)


I put the 20mm long piece into my ER40 collet block only about 5mm length are in the collet. 


EDIT: In a post below BaronJ advises to be careful with using the ER collet only in the front, the advise is to put at least some piece of the same diameter in the rear end of the collet to prevent it from beeing uneven compressed. 

I put my ER40 collet block into the machines clamping arrangement.


I cut off a small piece for demonstration purpose only.


The ER collet clamps at the very front quite O.K. For a saw cut good enough. For milling or turning I would not trust it too much.



I hope someone finds it useful. To be able to find the small piece in all the swarf, the mod that BaronJ made with the Al block maybe a good add on. (not for the blue machine, because it has a chip tray under the slot to collect some swarf)

Greetings Timo


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

Probably my minor  proplem is to  raid rge scrap bin and change the 'angle plates for  higher and longer ones.  Then fabricate a sort of Keats plate to securely hold the short round bar from 'wobbling and smashing the blade-- and worde.

I am a quite completent welder and could MIG =up the set up as really I should be able to think in the 'rpund'  as well as in the flat.
Again, I recall ?Robert Smith writing this up in Advanced Machine Tool Work.


Snith describes a very useful Catspaw chuck as well as some useful msthematics on tool grinding


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## harborfreight8x12 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Thanks for the pictures.   At least it won't fall over backwards when you move it !
> 
> I've also toyed with the idea of putting a clear plexiglass cover on the gearbox.  I also notice that the worm in yours is steel !  The one in mine is bronze with a steel pinion gear driving the blade.  The top up hole is a nice idea as well.


You're right, it was my bronze gear that was destroyed, the steel worm gear was undamaged.  I love the plexiglass cover, my bandsaw has a slight leak at the bearing seal, I'm just too lazy to tear it down and replace the seal.  Kind regards, Al


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 13, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Hi John( et al)
> 
> Digressing  somewhat,  I have never found a saisfactory method of  holding down  those large, round sort endes of metal.  Perhaps you or other readers might  provide information thatI certainly do not posses.
> 
> ...



The method to simply clamp a disc in the sawing machine with the aid of some additional pieces of metal looks is new to me and looks quite straightforward and practical. We - the members of my horological society - use sometimes a bit more cumbersome method. In making gears for clocks it is easier to get the nice cutting brass Ms58 in the form of round barstock than in the form of sheet. Brass sheet where I live can only be obtained in larger dimensions and sheet comes mostly as the tougher cutting brass Ms63. So with round barstock we are often faced with the necessity to cut a thin slice from a leftover disc. The alternative would be to scrap the leftovers and being Dutch we consider that not done. Our solution is to combine two leftover pieces to a 'dumbbell' . This dumbbell shape holds easily in the sawing machine if you support it with a length of flat stock. We can cut useable slices down to 2 mm thickness. I never tried it but I guess you can do exactly the same for leftovers of round steel stock. I made some pictures: soldering the first disc on the electric cooker, soldering the second disc, the finished dumbbell, dumbbell on sawing machine, set up for a slice of 2 mm.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

Nice method, I wonder how you make sure, that the two big discs are parallel and concentric to each other. 
I guess you will cut a wedge if they are not concentric, or not?


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

Agreed but mathematically requites another iden tical diameter of disc.


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## awake (Jun 13, 2021)

Baron and other contributors,

Many thanks for this detailed write up! Very nice to see how others have improved these little saws. I have long intended to make extended jaws with a screw to make the jaws parallel on short pieces (as in post #4 above). Hadn't ever thought of make a "zero clearance" insert - great idea. Also a great word to check the fit of the tensioning mechanism. Many other great ideas as well; these are just the ones that stood out for me.

If I ever tear mine down for an overhaul, the things that I most want / need to do are the following: 1) jaw modification as above; 2) make a new mechanism for setting the blade guide bearings; 3) put a key in the handwheel that adjusts the jaw opening (mine just uses a grub screw which periodically works loose); and 4) rework the underside of the saw in the area around the slot along which the clamping jaw runs to make it parallel with the top - currently I have to keep adjusting the screw that attaches the jaw to the nut depending on how far open the jaws are.

The problem is, it just keeps on working and working and working, and I've hardly ever done a thing to it. I did finally have to replace a blade guide bearing that seized up, and replaced the drive belt, and early on I created a small table that can stay permanently attached for both horizontal and vertical operation. That's it. For all the crappiness of the construction, there is amazing value in these little saws!


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> another setup, that no one asked me to post. I post it anyway. Presumably only works on blue machines. (sorry for the owners of green machines  )
> The hypothetical problem at hand. Cutting a disc from the 20mm left over of 1" rod. (I made the left over extra to be able to make the fotos)
> ...



Hi Timo,
I would be very wary of clamping a short piece in an ER collet chuck, whilst it will work, you face a real risk of damaging the collet ! ER collets are not designed to grip anything shorter than the length of the collet.  The danger of fracturing the back of the slots can be avoided by filling the length of the collet with a piece of the same diameter material.

PS. the solid block that I fitted into the bandsaw blade slot was a piece of steel bar machined to be a good fit into the milled out slot, and secured with a coat of superglue.

Another picture of my bandsaw vise showing how the added extension plates are used.







You can see the advantage of raising the height of wide flat material.  You also need to put a block of wood under the arm to prevent the arm smashing down onto the stop switch when using this feature.


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

harborfreight8x12 said:


> You're right, it was my bronze gear that was destroyed, the steel worm gear was undamaged.  I love the plexiglass cover, my bandsaw has a slight leak at the bearing seal, I'm just too lazy to tear it down and replace the seal.  Kind regards, Al



Thanks.  I'm guessing you are in the USA !  Machine Mart also have the worm, the gear and shaft seals in stock here in the UK.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Timo,
> I would be very wary of clamping a short piece in an ER collet chuck, whilst it will work, you face a real risk of damaging the collet ! ER collets are not designed to grip anything shorter than the length of the collet.  The danger of fracturing the back of the slots can be avoided by filling the length of the collet with a piece of the same diameter mat



The surprise is that the New Mk3 Quorn is recommending that the tool holder is an ER one. Mind you having read on the book of destructions, iy is recommended that an alignment tooth is added and that there is a tooth rest and it goes on to provide a facility so that the ends of the cutters are radiased and this is part of the change from the Mark1 to the Mark3.
I am NOT digressing because  the new tqo pieces of the rotary table which I have been prattling about- provides for this--- Expressly.

So the jury is OUT


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> The method to simply clamp a disc in the sawing machine with the aid of some additional pieces of metal looks is new to me and looks quite straightforward and practical. We - the members of my horological society - use sometimes a bit more cumbersome method. In making gears for clocks it is easier to get the nice cutting brass Ms58 in the form of round barstock than in the form of sheet. Brass sheet where I live can only be obtained in larger dimensions and sheet comes mostly as the tougher cutting brass Ms63. So with round barstock we are often faced with the necessity to cut a thin slice from a leftover disc. The alternative would be to scrap the leftovers and being Dutch we consider that not done. Our solution is to combine two leftover pieces to a 'dumbbell' . This dumbbell shape holds easily in the sawing machine if you support it with a length of flat stock. We can cut useable slices down to 2 mm thickness. I never tried it but I guess you can do exactly the same for leftovers of round steel stock. I made some pictures: soldering the first disc on the electric cooker, soldering the second disc, the finished dumbbell, dumbbell on sawing machine, set up for a slice of 2 mm.
> 
> View attachment 126519
> View attachment 126520
> ...



Interesting method of accurately cutting a thin slice of material.

The way that I would do that is to clamp the piece of material as you have done but used a square to get the piece square to the base. Though I do like the square piece on the end of the depth stop.

On my machine I can cut a slice about 2 mm thick with only a few thou variation in flatness, though I admit that I wouldn't want to rely on holding that over more than about 70 mm.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 13, 2021)

I've just rummaged throough a large £40's worth of new offcuts and found enough thick angle iron to replace the vise jaws on my metal cutting bandsaw.  Amongst the other [ieces there is lots of lighter angle but slso a sizeable quanity of rectangular tubing- some of which is destined for faceplate w ork.
With a few well placed squirts from my MIG I have the rudi,m,ments of a very usable Meccano set.


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 13, 2021)

answer has been connected to the question.


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 13, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Nice method, I wonder how you make sure, that the two big discs are parallel and concentric to each other.
> I guess you will cut a wedge if they are not concentric, or not?



The gears will eventually need a centerhole to mount them on their shaft, so you put in a hole of diameter 4, 5 or 6 mm or whatever and you turn corresponding stubs on the temporary connecting rod.


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Timo,
> I would be very wary of clamping a short piece in an ER collet chuck, whilst it will work, you face a real risk of damaging the collet ! ER collets are not designed to grip anything shorter than the length of the collet.  The danger of fracturing the back of the slots can be avoided by filling the length of the collet with a piece of the same diameter material.


Hello,

I did not think it can fracture the collet, with the taper at the front for the nut and the slots arranged that it closes more or less prallel I assume (guess) it is fine.
The collets have quite a clamping range, so clamping something that is almost the nominal diameter of the collet or very much undersize might be a significant differnce.
I would not trust this "front only abuse" for milling or turning. For the saw cut or to hold something for belt grinder, I do not overly tighten the nut, so I guess it is O.K. for this kind of work. Still better to put something in the end.

Greetings Timo

p.s. I also edited the previous post, so I hope people will not overlook this.


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> The gears will eventually need a centerhole to mount them on their shaft, so you put in a hole of diameter 4, 5 or 6 mm or whatever and you turn corresponding stubs on the temporary connecting rod.



Hi Guys,

Thinking about thin round plates to make clock gears and other thin pieces, I tend to use either mandrels or wax chucks.  Or a combination of both.

One of the issues with a wax chuck is the shellac which melts at a relatively low temperature will let the part come loose if the part becomes hot, often ruining the part.  I've tried super glue, I've tried double sided tape, even Locktite.  They all loosen with heat, and double sided tape can be a right pig to remove.

One trick, if you can call it that is to clean the wax chuck by turning the dirty face off but leaving a small stub/spigot in the centre that will fit into the central hole in a gear.  Then super glue, shellac or Locktite used to hold the thin disc.  It becomes readily apparent if the work gets too hot but the stub/spigot will keep the work from falling off.

Disclaimer:  I'm not a clock maker, though I have made a couple of parts.


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## BaronJ (Jun 13, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello,
> 
> I did not think it can fracture the collet, with the taper at the front for the nut and the slots arranged that it closes more or less parallel I assume (guess) it is fine.
> The collets have quite a clamping range, so clamping something that is almost the nominal diameter of the collet or very much undersized might be a significant difference.
> ...



The ER collet system was never designed to hold very short pieces, its actually a tool holding mechanism, where the tool is intended to be gripped along the whole collet length.

I confess that I found out the hard way when a collet was taken out in two half’s.  Fortunately it wasn't an expensive one, just a pain to replace it


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## timo_gross (Jun 13, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> The ER collet system was never designed to hold very short pieces, its actually a tool holding mechanism, where the tool is intended to be gripped along the whole collet length.
> 
> I confess that I found out the hard way when a collet was taken out in two half’s.  Fortunately it wasn't an expensive one, just a pain to replace it



That means I was just lucky so far  that I only used the "trick" for light clamping mostly with a hand tightened Nut.
I will keep in mind what you wrote: "The danger of fracturing the back of the slots can be avoided by filling the length of the collet with a piece of the same diameter material."

Greetings Timo


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 14, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> another setup, that no one asked me to post. I post it anyway. Presumably only works on blue machines. (sorry for the owners of green machines  )
> The hypothetical problem at hand. Cutting a disc from the 20mm left over of 1" rod. (I made the left over extra to be able to make the fotos)
> ...



Our instruction 'How to kill a collet' reads 1) don't clean it 2) put a damaged arbor in it 3) don't use the whole length 4) in precision collets use non-nominal size stock.
So I would agree with the other comments against loading a collet for only a short length. However given the clear ease of the method described one might do it anyhow with set apart low quality collets. These are cheap and easy to come by. A single high quality ER25 collet from e.g. the German STALEX company with a guaranteed maximum run-out of less then 5 microns will cost you more (and is worth every penny of it) then a whole set of cheap Chinese collets including the collet holder and including their proverbial high run-out. So without penalty you can use such a Chinese Cheapy in the sawing machine. The run-out doesn't matter. Make sure you combine it with an equally cheap low quality collet holder.


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## timo_gross (Jun 14, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Our instruction 'How to kill a collet' reads 1) don't clean it 2) put a damaged arbor in it 3) don't use the whole length 4) in precision collets use non-nominal size stock.
> So I would agree with the other comments against loading a collet for only a short length. However given the clear ease of the method described one might do it anyhow with set apart low quality collets. These are cheap and easy to come by. A single high quality ER25 collet from e.g. the German STALEX company with a guaranteed maximum run-out of less then 5 microns will cost you more (and is worth every penny of it) then a whole set of cheap Chinese collets including the collet holder and including their proverbial high run-out. So without penalty you can use such a Chinese Cheapy in the sawing machine. The run-out doesn't matter. Make sure you combine it with an equally cheap low quality collet holder.


Hello,
You forgot two things, that come to mind. (just because I try to have the last word always, extremely anoying habit, for the ohters)

5) bore out the eccentric lip of the closer nut, because the chinese are too stupid to make a concentric eccentric.

6) put tool and collet into arbour, then tighten the nut and close as hard as possible  

Greetings Timo


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 14, 2021)

Ah Yes but 'interchangeability' has superceded all sorts of advice and strictures by - well people who are full of the 'exuberance of rgeir own verbosity'
Myford collets will crack if used by commonly available undersize round steel stock.
My set are ;bloody useless/

As for the Quorn and its  changes, I made the thing to take dead 1 inch stuff so that apart from other considerations, I could swop and change with 'One inch round' stock of machinery which literally abounds in MY little workshop. ;Bugger the rest'-- tha's me. Do what you want.
So the Quorn Mark 3 comes along with the ER suggestion.  Not the best option for me. The ER is 25mm wheras the inch is a rattling fitt of 25.4mm.

So I am a bean counter and rarely subscribes to the Norm- and lyimg in mu garden is an aluminium  prop -- and I can have a 1" bore as Nature inteded and I CAN slip om a 25mm ER collet to hold drills and the like.



I'm using that bit that between my esars that wasn't blown out when I served this bloody country ss a Goldstar airman working on sweating ammunition.

You may disagree that is your discretion- I think


----------



## ShopShoe (Jun 14, 2021)

Just for comparison,

What are you all using for lube in your 4x6 gearboxes?

--ShopShoe


----------



## ajoeiam (Jun 14, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> another setup, that no one asked me to post. I post it anyway. Presumably only works on blue machines. (sorry for the owners of green machines  )
> The hypothetical problem at hand. Cutting a disc from the 20mm left over of 1" rod. (I made the left over extra to be able to make the fotos)
> ...



Great idea!

Likely doesn't work as well but I would put a second piece (same sized material) in the vise at opposite to cutting end. That will work for something long enough to hold in the vice. Timo has a way of holding even if the end to be cut is too short to be fit into the vise - - - - good job!!!


----------



## awake (Jun 14, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Our instruction 'How to kill a collet' reads 1) don't clean it 2) put a damaged arbor in it 3) don't use the whole length 4) in precision collets use non-nominal size stock.
> So I would agree with the other comments against loading a collet for only a short length. However given the clear ease of the method described one might do it anyhow with set apart low quality collets. These are cheap and easy to come by. A single high quality ER25 collet from e.g. the German STALEX company with a guaranteed maximum run-out of less then 5 microns will cost you more (and is worth every penny of it) then a whole set of cheap Chinese collets including the collet holder and including their proverbial high run-out. So without penalty you can use such a Chinese Cheapy in the sawing machine. The run-out doesn't matter. Make sure you combine it with an equally cheap low quality collet holder.



Does anybody know if 5C collets better tolerate short lengths? As I understand it, they only grip about 1" of material at the front, no clamping action at the rear of the collet - but even so, maybe a short length (< 1") in the collet is still in danger of ruining it - ?


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 14, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> Just for comparison,
> 
> What are you all using for lube in your 4x6 gearboxes?
> 
> --ShopShoe



As far as I can recall 90 weight gear oil !   I've no Idea of the manufacturer it was given to me in a glass pickle jar as being OK !
Certainly not as thin as the old stuff, it went all over the place when I loosened the cover.


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 14, 2021)

Use 90 weight too for 40 years in my saws.
I have own 3 6x4 saws the first two was use for a saw so  welders or machinist could cut parts as did other work. 

They both work great and help cheep the larger saw cutting big parts.

I did have replace the motors on both.

The only problem I have is blades braking.

Dave



BaronJ said:


> As far as I can recall 90 weight gear oil !   I've no Idea of the manufacturer it was given to me in a glass pickle jar as being OK !
> Certainly not as thin as the old stuff, it went all over the place when I loosened the cover.


----------



## ShopShoe (Jun 15, 2021)

Thank You for the info.

--ShopShoe


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 16, 2021)

I just stumbled across my other clamp and was thinking, just in case someone wants to cut very small stock. That clamp I saw on youtube "cklickspring" made a built video, some time ago and ofcourse the clamp was much better looking. 
I is good for cutting small round or hex stock. I use it mostly on the vertical saw, ocasionally with the angle grinder. 
As far as I recall the click spring original also had a cross drilling function. 



Greeting Timo


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 16, 2021)

Any knows where you buy low cost blades that does not brake?

Dave


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 16, 2021)

I wrote thos up in -------------2018 but the detals should be in the British Museum! and also subject tp a Patent. It's a long tome since I originally commented

It is ascribed to Commsnder W.T. Barker of the Royal Navy- or as some of us Brycreeme Boys would dub it-- the Grey Finnel Line,

Certainly, it was in the Model Engineer  mag - pre-war, described by GHT in Model engineer's Workshop and I guess the kit is still a Hemingway one and so on.

I had the rather better one from GHT called the Universal Pillar Tool but the firsdt one was given to me and of wwelded construction  buut I have a Mk2 and it's rather rusty from when my workshop roof was blown off for the 2nd time//

So the finger plate not new and NOT as good as the original.
Sorry and all that
N


----------



## awake (Jun 16, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> Any knows where you buy low cost blades that does not brake?
> 
> Dave


Dave, I have used a lot of low-cost carbon steel blades (mostly from Harbor Freight) through the years. The finer pitch blades (24tpi) have generally lasted okay, but I have had poor results with their larger pitch blades (10tpi) even though it would be far more appropriate for cutting through 1" steel - they generally break sooner rather than later.

I have long read how much better and longer lasting bi-metal vari-pitch blades are. I am just such a cheapskate that I have been reluctant to spend the money - $6.99 for the carbon-steel blades, and they get the job done, even if the ones that last the longest (24tpi) take a long time to saw through heavier metal. Meanwhile, the prices I typically see on Lennox or Starret blades are around $30 per blade - are they really 5x better, 5x longer lasting?

Well ... after some frustration with the short life of both a 10tpi and a 18tpi carbon steel blade, I decided to take the plunge ... but I got diverted when I saw that there are some (presumably made in the far east) off-brand bi-metal vari-pitch blades available on Amazon for about half the price. I decided to buy one and try it out. Here is the one I bought: Imachinist S6412121418 Bi-Metal Band Saw Blades 64-1/2" X 1/2" X 14/18tpi for Cutting Soft Metal: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific; I got it for $16.99.

The verdict so far: it definitely cuts much faster than the 24tpi carbon steel blades, has lasted much longer than the 10tpi or 18tpi carbon steel blades, and has handled any thickness of metal I have used it on with no fuss. The last couple of cuts have not been straight down vertically, which might suggest that the set is worn more on one side than the other ... but it may also be a function of the fact that I have been having some trouble getting my blade guides adjusted (long story there that includes some of the relatively poor design of the saw itself). I will need to go a bit longer to come to any final conclusions about its value vs. the cheap blades, and of course to do justice to the topic, I really need to poney up the $30 for a Starret or Lennox and see how "the real thing" performs. (Isn't it odd that we can plunk down hundreds of dollars on a machine tool, but hate to spend much money on the tooling for it - or is that just me?)

Certainly not advocating for this brand, and no affiliation other than having bought one (and only one) - just sharing my experience thus far.


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 16, 2021)

I was brought up  to determine the number of teeth from the thickness of the metal.

Whether it is right or not is another matter


----------



## awake (Jun 16, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I was brought up  to determine the number of teeth from the thickness of the metal.
> 
> Whether it is right or not is another matter


That's always been my understanding - I seem to remember a rule-of-thumb to have at least 3 teeth in the cut at any time. That would suggest that 10tpi is suitable for cutting ~3/8" thick or thicker material; 18tpi is suitable for cutting ~.170" or thicker material; and 24tpi is suitable for cutting ~1/8" or thicker material. But that's where the blades seem to stop - nothing finer than 24tpi that I have commonly seen, so if one is cutting, say, 1/16" or thinner sheet metal, even the 24tpi blade is too coarse. At least in theory.

I don't know what the rule-of-thumb is for a vari-pitch blade, but the 14/18 vari-pitch noted above has seemed to handle anything from .125" wall tubing to 1" thick stock on edge to 4" wide stock, all without any chatter or fuss. Again, not to be taken as an endorsement, and see my note above about not cutting straight the last few times ...


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 16, 2021)

I think thaat there is a formula but a mnimum of contach with 3 teeth seems  fair enough.

Hoever, I'm happy to be advised

Norman


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 16, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> I just stumbled across my other clamp and was thinking, just in case someone wants to cut very small stock. That clamp I saw on youtube "cklickspring" made a built video, some time ago and ofcourse the clamp was much better looking.
> I is good for cutting small round or hex stock. I use it mostly on the vertical saw, ocasionally with the angle grinder.
> As far as I recall the click spring original also had a cross drilling function.
> View attachment 126602
> ...



Hi Timo,
That device is called a "Finger" plate and has a multitude of uses !


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 16, 2021)

Hi Andy, Norman, Guys,

There is a chap in Leeds who will make almost any blade that you want.  He currently charges a flat £10 for a 6X4 Bi-metal bandsaw blade, your choice of the number of teeth. From 4-6 tpi upto 14-16 tpi.

Based on his advice I'm currently using a 12-14 tpi blade as a general purpose one.  I've cut cast iron, steel, brass, aluminium and bronze with mine and no blade breakages. Though bronze is quite difficult and really needs a coarse blade.

PS: I also have the original blade supplied with the bandsaw when it was new !  Though I think 4 tpi would be more useful for wood.


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 16, 2021)

Details please and does he do wood cuttomg ones too.

I have just bought a Titan  wood bandsaw from  Screwfix.
Off topic, but I have been 'wood butchering' as if there was no tomrrow

The Quorn modifications to the old Mark 1 are now in progress.

Making 'test poeces' in timber.

Best Wishes

Norman from the Woodcutter's Ball


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 17, 2021)

That what buying now.

I not had any blade wear out they brake. 

Thank you 
Dave 



awake said:


> Dave, I have used a lot of low-cost carbon steel blades (mostly from Harbor Freight) through the years. The finer pitch blades (24tpi) have generally lasted okay, but I have had poor results with their larger pitch blades (10tpi) even though it would be far more appropriate for cutting through 1" steel - they generally break sooner rather than later.
> 
> I have long read how much better and longer lasting bi-metal vari-pitch blades are. I am just such a cheapskate that I have been reluctant to spend the money - $6.99 for the carbon-steel blades, and they get the job done, even if the ones that last the longest (24tpi) take a long time to saw through heavier metal. Meanwhile, the prices I typically see on Lennox or Starret blades are around $30 per blade - are they really 5x better, 5x longer lasting?
> 
> ...


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 17, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> So the finger plate not new and NOT as good as the original.
> Sorry and all that
> N


Haha, now I am crying ...... , because you say it is NOT good.

My work colleague used to say "Something new is something good forgotten old!" I gave up hope quite some time ago that I will ever have some really new idea. Some kid in the USA had the great new idea to let UBER cars travel in a fixed time schedule on frequently used routes, transport more than one customer at a time. Someone commented "Congrats, you just invented the BUS!".

This was just a beginners project, but at least now I learned the vocabulary for the tool. So I just copied a "bus" ....

Greetings Timo


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 17, 2021)

awake said:


> That's always been my understanding - I seem to remember a rule-of-thumb to have at least 3 teeth in the cut at any time. That would suggest that 10tpi is suitable for cutting ~3/8" thick or thicker material; 18tpi is suitable for cutting ~.170" or thicker material; and 24tpi is suitable for cutting ~1/8" or thicker material. But that's where the blades seem to stop - nothing finer than 24tpi that I have commonly seen, so if one is cutting, say, 1/16" or thinner sheet metal, even the 24tpi blade is too coarse. At least in theory.
> 
> I don't know what the rule-of-thumb is for a vari-pitch blade, but the 14/18 vari-pitch noted above has seemed to handle anything from .125" wall tubing to 1" thick stock on edge to 4" wide stock, all without any chatter or fuss. Again, not to be taken as an endorsement, and see my note above about not cutting straight the last few times ...



Hello,

I am only using a vertical band saw. 
I had bit frustration with the cheap blades, because in the hobby I sometimes cut the "mystery steel" and it can ruin a carbon blade in a pinch.
So I asked the people where I buy my steel were they buy their blades, they gave me the contact of their saw supplier.
I asked the lady at the saw supplier, what she suggests. They sold me some blade that was half as long for double the price, but it has the right number of teeth, better material and just works much better.
The CNC guys have one trick, to cut too thin material with a too coarse blade by infeeding at a controlled rate, then the tooth cannot grab and the blade cuts on the edge. (like a fly cutter). I guess that can be done also for the home shop with a mechanised down feed of some sort. 



SmithDoor said:


> That what buying now.
> 
> I not had any blade wear out they brake.
> 
> ...



My contour saw has an integrated blade welder, so I can (have to) make the loop myself. Someone was welding blades, clamping them on an Aluminium Block and just Tig welding them. Heat up to cherry red, let cool down on air to anneal the weld. Grind reasonable flat. For a broken band it might work if still long enough. 




Dedicated blade welders can be bought stand alone. (snatching some broken belts from someone with a bigger saw for free?)

Greetings Timo


----------



## jack620 (Jun 17, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Haha, now I am crying ...... , because you say it is NOT good.



It looks good to me Timo.


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 17, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Details please and does he do wood cuttomg ones too.
> 
> I have just bought a Titan  wood bandsaw from  Screwfix.
> Off topic, but I have been 'wood butchering' as if there was no tomrrow
> ...



Hi Norman,
Yes he will make up a blade to your requirements.  Next time I go there I will ask for you !  

Is it blades for the Titan that you are looking for ?  If so you might be out of luck, those blades are only 1/4" inch wide I think that he doesn't stock anything smaller than 1/2" inch wide.

I bought a "Titan" bandsaw from Screwfix a while ago, before I got the 6X4 bandsaw. I modified it hoping that I could get it to run slow enough for cutting steel !  I did improve its cutting for aluminium and brasses. But found that it was really only any good for wood.


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 17, 2021)

jack620 said:


> It looks good to me Timo.



Fine but there is better!
I used to like motor cars and my late wife had a rolls Royce, I had a clapped out 1937 Morris 8 that cost me £5-. I soon caught up
We both retired at 55 and when she died I gave the cars away. There is a still a classic Mercedes SLK 230 looking brand new i the garage and my son is folling about with Cotroen 2CV but has a another new Mercedes!
Tonight, I am drinking at the workingmen's club pn Famous Grouse whisky but on Sunday might I'm in the Conservaticlib drinking finest maly, Monday I'm in my 2nd best morning suit  and with a solid gold Waltham but today, I', off to gave coffee with a multi millionaire who owns 2 factories and  I', wearing a short that my lste wife wore more than 5 years ago.

It's a qusestion of judgement

Norman


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 17, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Fine but there is better!
> I used to like motor cars and my late wife had a rolls Royce, I had a clapped out 1937 Morris 8 that cost me £5-. I soon caught up
> We both retired at 55 and when she died I gave the cars away. There is a still a classic Mercedes SLK 230 looking brand new i the garage and my son is folling about with Cotroen 2CV but has a another new Mercedes!
> Tonight, I am drinking at the workingmen's club pn Famous Grouse whisky but on Sunday might I'm in the Conservaticlib drinking finest maly, Monday I'm in my 2nd best morning suit  and with a solid gold Waltham but today, I', off to gave coffee with a multi millionaire who owns 2 factories and  I', wearing a short that my lste wife wore more than 5 years ago.
> ...



Hello Norman,

Jack620 was maybe just trying to be nice, and stop my sobbing.
There is nothing that I can make, that cannot be done better by someone else  that is my fate, luckily not fatal.
Here we are: One is beeing accused of having no taste (who only tried to be nice), one start sobbing again, third one starts snobbing. 

Greetings Timo


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 17, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello Norman,
> 
> Jack620 was maybe just trying to be nice, and stop my sobbing.
> There is nothing that I can make, that cannot be done better by someone else  that is my fate, luckily not fatal.
> ...


The book is perhaps £30 and with a vast bumber of designs anf hints and great experience whilst you on the other hand get aan inferior product- for free.

That is my view on things not only on this hobby but life generally.    My observation on lfe of which I have only ONE. 

Best Wishes nebertheless

Norman


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 17, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Norman,
> Yes he will make up a blade to your requirements.  Next time I go there I will ask for you !
> 
> Is it blades for the Titan that you are looking for ?  If so you might be out of luck, those blades are only 1/4" inch wide I think that he doesn't stock anything smaller than 1/2" inch wide.
> ...



Thanks John

I do have a spare blade- somewhere and I know that there are cheaper and therefore inferior blades. Sorry, SmithDoor but I'nm intrsted in quality and am not dominsted by p[[rice or lack of price.

John

 I have the question of the Titan wood blade to address.  No, not yet bit  mine will not last foever.

So thank you for your help and I will have to think again  regarding the wood blade.
My trouble is that trying to read catogues that are printed small and in green are night impossible to read now.   I have to wait a firther 5 weeks before I can just be consulted let alone have treatment- whateverthat might be- for another 5 weeks.
My eye jabs are not until August.

Meanwhile, I struggle on regardless and on my own.


----------



## awake (Jun 17, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am only using a vertical band saw.
> I had bit frustration with the cheap blades, because in the hobby I sometimes cut the "mystery steel" and it can ruin a carbon blade in a pinch.
> ...


Hi Timo,

I don't think I've shown any of my results here, but I have gotten half-way decent at TIG welding bandsaw blades together. Only half-way - I still have somewhat variable results, but more and more often I get them to run straight, not do too much of a bump where the teeth have been messed up at the weld (still working on that bit), and not to break (or if they do, not at my weld).


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 17, 2021)

Timp
           It would appear that my words have been  misconstrued and and therefore taken out of com-text.
If you gave been upset then I must humbly apologise


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 17, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Timp
> It would appear that my words have been  misconstrued and and therefore taken out of com-text.
> If you gave been upset then I must humbly apologise


*
OFF Topic:*

Hello Norman,

No worries I am not really upset, I apreciate that you are asking. In your last post I figured, that you refer to the design shown in the book as superior, ment as advise in the first place not by means of upsetting.
This particular finger plate did a good job, keeping my fingers safe (is that were the name comes from?) when cutting small HSS and carbide bits with the big abrasive chop saw.
My music teacher once said: "If someone does not give you criticism anymore, most of the time this does not mean that you are doing it perfect. It usually means the person does not bother anymore and gave up to say something!"

So I prefer an honest: "You could have done better" over beeing ignored any time.
I contacted the publisher if they would ship a copy of the book to Taiwan.  If I ever get around to make "a good (as in malt whisky) one" I am not sure.

Cheers Timo
*
Back to business.*



goldstar31 said:


> I was brought up  to determine the number of teeth from the thickness of the metal.
> 
> Whether it is right or not is another matter



All information I could find confirms, pitch goes with thickness. For 12 mm wide blade coarsest pitch I could find was 6 TPI.
That foto I took from the back of my saw band metal box. The stuff comes in coils of 16 m so one meter costs roughly six pounds and it needs to be welded. 
It gives a "rule of thumb" chart. T refers to thickness, P to blade pitch.






Greetings Timo


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

I passed a copy of your lkast reply to a to a bunch of 'savants' who, lije me, are in their 70's, their 80' and their 90' and they were shocked and annoyed at your attempt not only to rell a person who was and is a feiend of the editor of 'the book' which COPYRIGHT under the laws of the United Kingdom and the later plans which are later incorpirated in the  modestly priced kit subsequently .
 I can tell you that the editor is and was a personal friend and associare og my late wife and mydelf.
The gentleman was a graduand and then a graduare in Sentistry at Durham Ubiversity in Newcastle upon Tyne and thereafter  established hid own practice until he , like most of us wise old owls too early retiement and took on the mammoth task of collating  the writings and experience of arguably one of the Worlld's finest engieers not only in model soze but ran and owned  engineering businesses in the USA andsd the UK. . The book compilation was 'a labour of love' eather than ewiving a very modest payment.
Responsible caring people do things - for free.  My wife who was the 2nd Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons was  quite happy to give her skills and knowlwdfw not only free but at her own expenses,
I spoke with  her old friend yestrday who , dspite being partially incapacitated with old age wants to  return to a Church in Austria, yet again to help. 

Today, the World continues to be rocked by the Covid19 Pandemic, Many of my friends and relatives are working among those who have comtracted the disease.  I'm a major shareholder in a pharmaceutical that is  working flat out to provide vaccines  - at cost-- and no dividends in that direction to those , despite their age etc, saw it all going to happen and ACTED!.

And You,, SIR, have the audacity not only to refute and criticise the experience of many decades but have the audacity to ask a very responsible law abifing - plilathropist( oh Yes) to break the laws of this country.

I'm franhlu disgusted and am saddened by the fact that the true nature of the posting is not only selfish but ILLEGAL.


I can only jope that the many, many other responsible  members will find the matter highly irresponsible


----------



## Hopsteiner (Jun 18, 2021)

awake said:


> Dave, I have used a lot of low-cost carbon steel blades (mostly from Harbor Freight) through the years. The finer pitch blades (24tpi) have generally lasted okay, but I have had poor results with their larger pitch blades (10tpi) even though it would be far more appropriate for cutting through 1" steel - they generally break sooner rather than later.
> 
> I have long read how much better and longer lasting bi-metal vari-pitch blades are. I am just such a cheapskate that I have been reluctant to spend the money - $6.99 for the carbon-steel blades, and they get the job done, even if the ones that last the longest (24tpi) take a long time to saw through heavier metal. Meanwhile, the prices I typically see on Lennox or Starret blades are around $30 per blade - are they really 5x better, 5x longer lasting?
> 
> ...


This series of threads interests me very much. I have an old Atlas drop saw. It has gotten into the habit of throwing blades. I bought new tires, didn’t really solve the problem. I have thought about machining new bronze bearings and taking a skim cut on the wheels. A better guide system would probably be in order. I’ve been reduced to using a hack saw. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 18, 2021)

Rebuild it good saw.
I have rebuilt a wells band saw 2 times in 30 years. My father purchased in 1948 and rebuilt in the 1950's by some else. 
This does include the repairs do employees  
The motor was rewind 2 times.

The saw was almost used every day from 1948 to 2004.
We also had other saws too including the 4x6 saws.  

Dave 



Hopsteiner said:


> This series of threads interests me very much. I have an old Atlas drop saw. It has gotten into the habit of throwing blades. I bought new tires, didn’t really solve the problem. I have thought about machining new bronze bearings and taking a skim cut on the wheels. A better guide system would probably be in order. I’ve been reduced to using a hack saw. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## awake (Jun 18, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I passed a copy of your lkast reply to a to a bunch of 'savants' who, lije me, are in their 70's, their 80' and their 90' and they were shocked and annoyed at your attempt not only to rell a person who was and is a feiend of the editor of 'the book' which COPYRIGHT under the laws of the United Kingdom and the later plans which are later incorpirated in the  modestly priced kit subsequently .
> I can tell you that the editor is and was a personal friend and associare og my late wife and mydelf.
> The gentleman was a graduand and then a graduare in Sentistry at Durham Ubiversity in Newcastle upon Tyne and thereafter  established hid own practice until he , like most of us wise old owls too early retiement and took on the mammoth task of collating  the writings and experience of arguably one of the Worlld's finest engieers not only in model soze but ran and owned  engineering businesses in the USA andsd the UK. . The book compilation was 'a labour of love' eather than ewiving a very modest payment.
> Responsible caring people do things - for free.  My wife who was the 2nd Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons was  quite happy to give her skills and knowlwdfw not only free but at her own expenses,
> ...


Norman, I can't tell to whom you are responding. Is it possible that this is referring to a different thread?


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

Andrew
Andrew


See above


I have been asked to ship a copy of a copyrufhted book

The copy right holder was a fanuky friend 

Cheers

Norman


----------



## Shelton (Jun 18, 2021)

goldstar31 do you know where that book can be purchased?    That may help the other guys.


----------



## timo_gross (Jun 18, 2021)

Hello all, 

The book can be purchased here.



			https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/in-your-workshop/model-engineers-workshop-manual/
		


I contacted them yesterday, but today I got their reply that they unfortunately do not ship things to Taiwan.

Greetings Timo


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 18, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> This series of threads interests me very much. I have an old Atlas drop saw. It has gotten into the habit of throwing blades. I bought new tires, didn’t really solve the problem. I have thought about machining new bronze bearings and taking a skim cut on the wheels. A better guide system would probably be in order. I’ve been reduced to using a hack saw. Any thoughts would be appreciated.



Hi Hopsteiner,

I don't know the "Atlas" drop saw at all !  However wear in the spindles and wheel hubs will cause the kind of problem that you describe.

I spent a reasonable amount of time setting up items so that I could measure and quantify the wear and run out of the wheels. Fortunately the bandsaw I obtained had done very little work, I suspect damaged quite early in its life.

However when setting it up use a new blade and spend the time to set things properly.  Use hardwood for test cuts.  I can get a straight vertical cut within a few thou over three inches.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

Angie said:


> goldstar31 do you know where that book can be purchased?    That may help the other guys.



Angie - Igavwe my old vattered cipy away and bought a new one.
Since this started, I have just had a couple of phone calls to tell me that a dear older friend has had a 2nf fall and has died at the age of 94.  This old bloke built almost all the bits in BOTH books.
I've just told the daughter that I would probly better the best offer for the whole workshop.

Some of the stuff is actually mine but friendship is friendship.

As for who asked me to mske can only be reharfed as a pirated copy is, as I sais to Awake just above me earlier comments HERE

The loss of a fdear friend who held the information in both books has upset me more than can be imagined

THE POSTING HAS BEEN ALTERED

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> *OFF Topic:*
> 
> Hello Norman,
> 
> ...



This is the ALTERED post,  I never said what the book was nor the publisher, nor the author NOR the EDITER.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> *OFF Topic:*
> 
> Hello Norman,
> 
> ...


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## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2021)

You see

I actually printrd off the ORIGINAL before it was altered.


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 19, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Hopsteiner,
> 
> I don't know the "Atlas" drop saw at all !  However wear in the spindles and wheel hubs will cause the kind of problem that you describe.
> 
> ...


It’s an Atlas 4353. I checked the inner diameter of the bronze bushing on the upper wheel. It’s supposed to .625. It’s .630. I think a new bushing and then a skim cut on the outer wheel diameter should take care of the problem.


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## BaronJ (Jun 19, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> It’s an Atlas 4353. I checked the inner diameter of the bronze bushing on the upper wheel. It’s supposed to .625. It’s .630. I think a new bushing and then a skim cut on the outer wheel diameter should take care of the problem.



Yes that would allow it to wobble !
I would check the shaft diameter as well, it might be that just a new bush would sort it.  I would replace the bushing before checking and skimming the wheel.  You might find that you don't need to do anything to that.

When I checked the wheels on my bandsaw they were only a thou out !


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 19, 2021)

I‘ll make a new bushing and then check the tracking. I was using so much tension on a fairly new Lennox blade it broke. And not at the weld! Getting tired of using a hacksaw.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 19, 2021)

Many bandsaw wheels are 'crowned' to  help the tracking.
Again, there is a qustion of aligning with a straight edge
Of course, you may have known these and done them


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## SmithDoor (Jun 19, 2021)

Has anyone modified the 4x6 to use a 5/8" or 3/4" instead of 1/2" x 64½" blade ??

Dave


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## BaronJ (Jun 19, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> Has anyone modified the 4x6 to use a 5/8" or 3/4" instead of 1/2" x 64½" blade ??
> 
> Dave



Hi Dave, Guys,

Your problem is going to be that a 5/8" inch wide blade is quite a bit thicker than a 1/2" inch wide one.  This means that you are going to have problems getting enough tension on the blade and in turn make it much harder for the guide rollers to twist the blade to the correct angle to get a straight cut.  The problem gets worse as the blade gets wider.

You can get a 5/8" inch blade to run but the bearings and hubs will suffer !


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## SmithDoor (Jun 19, 2021)

If did I would change to guide rollers to wide size. 
In my last shop I welded the blades but only stock 3/4" so pain small 4x6 saw using 1/2" blades.
Just never change the size. 
The 5/8" gives a straight cut.

Dave 



BaronJ said:


> Hi Dave, Guys,
> 
> Your problem is going to be that a 5/8" inch wide blade is quite a bit thicker than a 1/2" inch wide one.  This means that you are going to have problems getting enough tension on the blade and in turn make it much harder for the guide rollers to twist the blade to the correct angle to get a straight cut.  The problem gets worse as the blade gets wider.
> 
> You can get a 5/8" inch blade to run but the bearings and hubs will suffer !


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## Mike Henry (Jun 20, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> It’s an Atlas 4353. I checked the inner diameter of the bronze bushing on the upper wheel. It’s supposed to .625. It’s .630. I think a new bushing and then a skim cut on the outer wheel diameter should take care of the problem.



I don't know if you need it or not, but Vintage Machinery might have a manual for your saw.  I have a PDF of the manual and saw blade instructions for the 4352 horizontal bandsaw if you want it.

DM or PM me for a copy.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 20, 2021)

This is thin blade for metal in ⅝" x 0.032"








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




Dave



BaronJ said:


> Hi Dave, Guys,
> 
> Your problem is going to be that a 5/8" inch wide blade is quite a bit thicker than a 1/2" inch wide one.  This means that you are going to have problems getting enough tension on the blade and in turn make it much harder for the guide rollers to twist the blade to the correct angle to get a straight cut.  The problem gets worse as the blade gets wider.
> 
> You can get a 5/8" inch blade to run but the bearings and hubs will suffer !


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 21, 2021)

Mike Henry said:


> I don't know if you need it or not, but Vintage Machinery might have a manual for your saw.  I have a PDF of the manual and saw blade instructions for the 4352 horizontal bandsaw if you want it.
> 
> DM or PM me for a copy.


Mike, thanks for generous offer. I have the manual for this saw. As I mentioned I bought new tires for this saw and I thought this would take care of the problem. It did and it didn’t. It would track for awhile, but then the blade would work its way off. I never used this saw all that much but as I have more time, it is getting more use. I didn’t think the upper bearing was the problem. There didn’t seem to be that much play. But upon closer inspection it appears to be “bell” shaped on its inner diameter. I found a piece of the right sized bronze and I’m turning a bearing. Hopefully, this will solve a very irritating problem. I plan on also checking the outer diameter of the wheel with the new bearing installed. The guide wheels also need a good look. Pictures would show the problem there. The guide wheel adjustment relies on a nut holding the wheels in place. The hole is much larger. A cam adjustment would be much better. When you’re working on other projects you hate to stop to rebuild another machine you use occasionally unless forced. Well, I think I’m being forced. I don’t like using a hacksaw.


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 21, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> This is thin blade for metal in ⅝" x 0.032"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel you may be right. The Lennox blade is a good one but it did seem very stiff. And you are trying to twist turn this blade and with the guide system the Atlas uses, may be near impossible. If a new bearing doesn’t solve my problem a narrower blade, more flexible is probably the solution.


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## Mike Henry (Jun 21, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> Mike, thanks for generous offer. I have the manual for this saw.



Wish I could help more then, but the closest I ever got to one was the manual.  Good luck with the fix!


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 21, 2021)

Took my broke blades back to Bandsaw Blades Direct and they re the blades. Can’t ask for anything more then that. I’m probably trying to go heavier blade then this saw is designed for.


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## Hopsteiner (Jun 22, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Many bandsaw wheels are 'crowned' to  help the tracking.
> Again, there is a qustion of aligning with a straight edge
> Of course, you may have known these and done them


The Atlas 4353 upper wheel turns on a canted axis. When you tighten the axis nut on the outside of the saw casting it tips the upper wheel back. This somewhat forces the blade to ride back against the rim of the wheel. As I mentioned, I turned a new bushing for the problem upper wheel. Finished it, wheel nice and snug, turning freely. Fired up the saw, without adjusting guides. The blade walked off. Removed both guides and the blade tracked perfectly. Obviously at this point, the guides were the problem. Adjusted both sets and the blade tracked. Now I firmly agree With BaronJ that I’m trying to make a small saw do to much. I wanted a stronger heavier blade, but 1/2”x .035 is going too heavy. It seems to be working, but the guides are being over worked. Someone mentioned .020 inch thick as a max. They’re probably right.


goldstar31 said:


> Many bandsaw wheels are 'crowned' to  help the tracking.
> Again, there is a qustion of aligning with a straight edge
> Of course, you may have known these and done them


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## justintime (Jun 22, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Many bandsaw wheels are 'crowned' to  help the tracking.
> Again, there is a qustion of aligning with a straight edge
> Of course, you may have known these and done them


Crowning will help on vertical saw wheels. Any crowning on horizontal saws would likely be tooth relief as blade rear edge runs against shoulder of wheels ?


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## goldstar31 (Jul 17, 2021)

justintime said:


> Crowning will help on vertical saw wheels. Any crowning on horizontal saws would likely be tooth relief as blade rear edge runs against shoulder of wheels ?
> I don't think that you have fully thoughy out my comments.
> No matter what position the bandsaw is placed, 'Croning ' can be beneficial,  Upside down in a hammock and the mechanics remain the same. There ino difference whether the band is an abrasive one or a metal one with cutting teeth.
> What DOES change the scenario is twisinsting the balde as in the standard 6 x 4 bandsaw,
> ...


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## BaronJ (Jul 17, 2021)

Hi Guys,

There is absolutely no crowning on my 6X4 Taiwanese bandsaw wheels !  They are dead flat with a rim that the back edge of the blade runs up against.  The six guide bearings do the twisting and support the back of the blade during a cut.  If the guide holder is not set correctly not only will you not get a square cut but the blade will be run off the loose wheel.

I can get a square cut over a 3" inches diameter bar within a few thou.  But you do have to spend the time and effort getting the saw set up properly.


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 17, 2021)

Let me jump back in the discussion. I went back to Bandsaw Blades Direct In Grand Rapids, Michigan. Sales plug-great outfit to deal with. As I mentioned, my 1/2 inch .035 blade at 60 inches long was too “stiff” for my Atlas 4353 bandsaw. The blade broke for the second time. And each time, not at the weld. This should tell you something. Well, I brought it back and asked if they would replace it with a 3/8 inch .020 bimetal blade. Now, you would think that all of these breakages were caused by my incompetence. Forcing a small saw to do too much. Usually, it costs you money when you make these kind of errors. They were more then happy to weld me up a new 1/2 inch by .025 60 inch blade. No charge. Great company to deal with. I’m lucky they’re just down the street. We’ll see how this blade works out.


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## justintime (Jul 18, 2021)

Hello,  To rephrase it slightly,  any saw with a “ shoulder wheel “  has no need for any crowning. Any saw with no “ shoulder “ on the wheels will definitely be crowned, horizontal / vertical not withstanding.


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## traction engine (Jul 18, 2021)

Sorry, bandsaw side guide rolls cannot have any crown - the blade will wander off to one side. On these small saws, the side rollers are cam followers and of two types  - flat with back up ball bearing or shoulder with no back up necessary.


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 18, 2021)

When I went to adjust my side rollers, I could see a problem. And a solution. The through bolt which carries the bearing fits in a larger casting hole. Continued adjustment relies on tightening the Nulton the back. A cam adjustment is the way to go and a small project in the future.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 19, 2021)

I think Chinese taking cast out the mold and machining.

They did that with machine tool too.

It faster finished product just after poring.
This story a machine tool dealers told.

Dave



BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> There is absolutely no crowning on my 6X4 Taiwanese bandsaw wheels !  They are dead flat with a rim that the back edge of the blade runs up against.  The six guide bearings do the twisting and support the back of the blade during a cut.  If the guide holder is not set correctly not only will you not get a square cut but the blade will be run off the loose wheel.
> 
> I can get a square cut over a 3" inches diameter bar within a few thou.  But you do have to spend the time and effort getting the saw set up properly.


----------



## BaronJ (Jul 19, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> When I went to adjust my side rollers, I could see a problem. And a solution. The through bolt which carries the bearing fits in a larger casting hole. Continued adjustment relies on tightening the Nulton the back. A cam adjustment is the way to go and a small project in the future.



Hi Hopsteiner,

All four blade guide rollers on my saw are offset cams carrying roller bearings.  Actually a bit confusing because you only need to adjust two on one side to support the blade as it twists.

I think mine had a pair of cams fitted at each end instead of a cam and a straight one, so I set the inside ones with the cam facing away from the blade and just used the outside ones to adjust for blade thickness.

It took a while before I realised this.


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## Richard Carlstedt (Jul 19, 2021)

Perhaps this has been said before, but let me rephrase the commentary that talks about rubber tires and crowned wheels.
There are two kinds of Bandsaws - and they are not the same- you must realize the difference !

The conventional *Vertical Bandsaw*  ( that we mostly see ) has a crowned wheel and rubber tires. This saw uses the crowned wheel to center the blade and the rubber tires allow various width blades as the rubber does not destroy the tooth set and the "crown " centers the blades. The guide rollers or solid guides are adjusted  to keep the blade in "its crowned wheel" setting and prevent forces to push the blade off the "crowned center" . When you replace the blade, the guides are opened up and the blade runs till stabilized , AND then the guides ( sides and rear) are brought in to support that width blade AT that position. Please note , the saw will cut without the guides (!) but the your forces will push the blade off the wheel

The standard Horizontal Bandsaw , Which I will call a "*Cutoff Bandsaw*" is an entirely different saw in setup and use , and requires one to know about the "Neutral Axis" of the blade ( Critical ) .
There are a few other issues to deal with , but lets say the wheels are aligned and that you have replaced the blade and all guides are removed . Now I want you to take a Crescent wrench ( adjustable spanner) and clamp it on the blade  -which is now 45 degrees from vertical- and rotate the blade so it is vertical . You have now rotated the blade about it's neutral axis !  That means even though the blade is stretched by the wheels , you have stretched the blades leading and trailing edges, but the middle of the blade ( 1/4" in on a 1/2" blade) -Its neutral axis - is not stretched !
This is critical to understand tracking.
Now the problem with these saws, and I have seen it in many of them , is that *the guides must do this and they don't . *If in turning the blade 45 degrees, they stretch or move the neutral axis, you are forever plagued with , non tracking, breaking and short life. If you take a used blade out and it is conical, you have stretched the blade because of the guides.  I have machined the guides on several saws to allow them to track the neutral axis. it is amazing to me the number of saws that "bend" the proper track and that the saw makers do not make the blade guides properly  .

As mentioned, there are other issues with a Cutoff saw that need to be addressed, but without neutral axis control, all are destined to fail

Rich

PS  The Vertical bandsaw never has a Neutral axis issue as the blade is not twisted


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 19, 2021)

4 cams, sounds great. That’s what this saw needs.


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 20, 2021)

Baron, what make of saw do you have? I wonder if parts from yours could be adapted to mine.


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## BaronJ (Jul 20, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> Baron, what make of saw do you have? I wonder if parts from yours could be adapted to mine.



Good question !  All I know is that it is a generic Taiwanese 6X4 bandsaw.  Machine Mart here in the UK have all the spares needed to fit mine.  Its also Identical to the Grizzly G0622 and the Clark CBS45MD.  It seems that most if not all the parts are interchangeable.


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 20, 2021)

Thanks for the quick reply. I’ll have a look. My guides just floating around relying on a nut to insure adjustment is just poor engineering.


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## BaronJ (Jul 20, 2021)

Hopsteiner said:


> Thanks for the quick reply. I’ll have a look. My guides just floating around relying on a nut to insure adjustment is just poor engineering.



Hi Hopsteiner,

I've had a look through the three parts manuals that I have and all of them say that the inner bearing support is fixed and cannot be adjusted.  However they all say that the outer bearing support can be rotated to match the blade thickness.  Only one the Delta manual quotes the blade thickness as 20 thou, but doesn't tell you that one of the bearing supports is a cam.  In fact it doesn't even give you a parts breakdown.








This is a picture straight out of the Grizzly manual and is exactly as mine is.


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## Hopsteiner (Jul 21, 2021)

Thanks for the pictures. I will be looking closely to see if I can adapt.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm wondering if there are several 6 x4 saws as  I am on my second( similar) machine and  the factory bits on BarinJ's macine are quite similar( or eve identical)
Relies from genuine ownwes of 6 x 4 owners only

Yes, I HAVE a wood bansaw and once owned a 3 vwheel job too.

Thanks in anticipation

Norman


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## awake (Jul 23, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> I'm wondering if there are several 6 x4 saws as  I am on my second( similar) machine and  the factory bits on BarinJ's macine are quite similar( or eve identical)
> Relies from genuine ownwes of 6 x 4 owners only
> 
> Yes, I HAVE a wood bansaw and once owned a 3 vwheel job too.
> ...



My HF 6x4 saw has a different set up for the guide bearings - and I must say, much less robust than what Baron has shown.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 23, 2021)

awake said:


> My HF 6x4 saw has a different set up for the guide bearings - and I must say, much less robust than what Baron has shown.



Almost bearings for skate boards


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## kop (Jul 23, 2021)

I don't know where I'd be w/o my 6 x 4 . (1/2 by .025-Inch, 10/14 64-1/2-Inch for ref) I don't have any pics atm but I do remember that I also had broken damaged parts throughout.

All the guide bearings were "cheese" . So happens that inline skates use the same bearing and there was a skate shop nearby.

Prior to replacing the arm I did a proper repair . By proper I mean prepared, locked down, preheated, post heated/cooled, nickel repair rod, and a few decades of experience.

When the "new" part arrived it was a disappointment. It was in a word "unusable"  as delivered. getting the pivot square to the frame was accomplished with a selection of slightly offset bushings. Like most of us here, since I just happen to  know  someone with a lathe, I did the bushings on a drill press with a file   (I believe I've said it here one or twice, I'm a total hack compared to some of the talent here).

Ahh, the drive bits. My worm drive had been run dry and I nearly gave up. However on mine the worm and spur could both be inverted so that they ran on fresh metal. further the worm could be spaced to run even further in clean metal. The bearings were of course scrap and I just happened to have motorcycle bearings (front axle maybe) that fit perfectly.

Then the motor and pulley. Not only was the step pulley on the motor drilled crooked but the bearing in the motor was of course junk. I drilled and bushed the step pulley (this time on the lathe) , replaced the motor bearing. put the correct belt on it, and squared the motor to the driven pulley.

We're not done yet. The bearings in the guide wheels weren't just junk, the driven end either had a bushing originally or was cobbled in later. So off to the bearing shop once again.

The wheels were so caked with crap that at first I thought they were disintegrating (almost like zinc pest) . As I continued to clean I found there actually was real enough metal underneath and after countless hours I had them back to they're original diameter. No wonder the tension adjustment was so used up that I could barely get the blade on.

I still haven't made the time to finish the project. It still has the factory "non-paint" on it , the handles need replacement, and the vice could use the usual tlc.

In the end it cuts, it cuts rather well. It even cuts straight. It's reasonably easy on blades. I really don't know where I'd be without it. It's the right size. In a pinch it can be stored vertically on hooks (motor up) and still be pressed into service from there for light cuts. Actually I do know where I'd be without it. I'd be back at the Milwaukee PortaBand and 6" vice.

I will get photos one day. If for no other reason than to show off how butt fuggerly a saw can be and still work well.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 23, 2021)

The good new the the ball bearing last for a long time.
I have saw  outside and use ever day and they did give out.
The only item that die was the motor replace with USA motor.

Dave



goldstar31 said:


> Almost bearings for skate boards


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## SmithDoor (Jul 23, 2021)

Grizzly likes there saws buy price. A 4x6 saw almost $400.00 plus shipping.
My HF 4x6 cost only $160.00 16 years ago. Today not on saw is $289.00just pickup at store and no Frieght charges.








						1 HP 4 in. x 6 in. Horizontal/Vertical Metal Cutting Band Saw
					

Amazing deals on this 4In X 6In Hor/Vert Metal Cutting Band Saw at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com
				




Dave



kop said:


> I don't know where I'd be w/o my 6 x 4 . (1/2 by .025-Inch, 10/14 64-1/2-Inch for ref) I don't have any pics atm but I do remember that I also had broken damaged parts throughout.
> 
> All the guide bearings were "cheese" . So happens that inline skates use the same bearing and there was a skate shop nearby.
> 
> ...


----------

