# startin' on a Webster



## dgjessing (Apr 14, 2012)

So I'm thinking maybe I'm ready to do my first IC engine, and the Webster seems like a good place to start. Kinda apprehensive to start a build thread on it, as I don't intend to hurry or anything... but what the heck 

Since I had a suitable hunk of cast iron on hand (from a boat anchor) I have begun with the cylinder. First I turned down the 1" dia head end, holding it somewhat precariously in the outside jaws of my 7x lathe:







That done, I was able to swap to the inside jaws (much better) and start on the cooling fins:






Fins done, turned the other end down to 1.125" dia:






Progressively larger drill bits ending with a 13/16" Silver & Deming:






Ready to bore to the final size (another day):


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## rudydubya (Apr 14, 2012)

Following with interest Dave. Glad you decided to share a build thread.  Thm:

Regards,
Rudy


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## Blogwitch (Apr 14, 2012)

Dave,

You're off to a good start, and if you do hit a problem later, there have been a few built on here already, so no shortage of builds to look at and of course the builders themselves will be only too willing to help out.

This is one I will be following.


John


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## vcutajar (Apr 15, 2012)

Hi Dave

I will be following you also in your journey.



> as I don't intend to hurry or anything...



Take your time, after all it's a hobby

Vince


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## dgjessing (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks, you guys 

Continuing with the cylinder, bored it out to about .872":






I then turned a piece of 1" aluminum down to about .870", slathered WD40 and valve grinding compound on it, and proceeded to hone the bore. Wrapped part of it in electrical tape and gripped it with pliers, as it would really "catch" with each fresh application of grinding compound: 






I think it's good enough; I've got a slight taper, from .8735" at the bottom to .874" at the top. This according to my cheap-o Harbor freight bore gauges and digital caliper - who know what it really is, eh? 






There is some discoloration in spots; I've talked myself into believing this is due to impurities in the boat anchor quality cast iron. Am I kidding myself, or does that sound plausible? 

Need to hit the salvage yard and resupply on aluminum plate. 

What's the consensus on iron piston rings versus high-temp "O" rings? Is there going to be anybody at the NAMES show next weekend selling either of those?


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2012)

I used a Viton o-ring on mine and it worked great.


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## Harold Lee (Apr 15, 2012)

Dave - When you start discussing CI rings VS O rings you are getting into a religious argument with strong feelings on both sides. I agree with Brian. I have built four IC engines and helped others get theirs running and I have always used O rings. They are cheap, seal very well and will last for a long time. When they wear out it takes about 3 minutes and cost about .03 cents to replace.

Just my opinion....
Harold


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2012)

I wouldn't go so far as to imply that o-rings were "better" than cast iron. Its just that there is a certain ammount of elemental magic involved with making cast iron rings that I didn't posess when I built my Webster.


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## Longboy (Apr 16, 2012)

I'll be watching Dave. Webster was my 1st I/C too!   Dave.


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## Bob Parker (Apr 16, 2012)

Dave
The Webster was my first IC engine. I never did get it running. I used cast iron rings, which produced very low compression. My next IC engine Lil Brother which also had cast iron rings and low compression. I finally installed an O Ring in the lil Brother which produced great compression and a good runner. Your post may inspire me to go back to the webster and try an O ring. 
Presently working on a Olds 1/2 scale.
Maybe someday my machining will improve to the level that will allow use of Cast iron rings.
Bob


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## rhitee93 (Apr 16, 2012)

I hope to start on my first IC engine project soon, and will be following along here with keen interest.

Thanks for doing this log!


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## cfellows (Apr 16, 2012)

Nice project! You're starting a great love/hate relationship. When it finally works, and it will, you'll love it. Before you get it running, you may have a few moments here and there that will give you second thoughts. Stay with it and the rewards will be worth it.

Chuck


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## dgjessing (Apr 16, 2012)

Well since the cylinder would be lonely without a piston (no innuendo whatsoever intended!) I've done that today. Turned it to size and used a 3/8" end mill to bore down to 3/4" deep:






Then bored the recess in the skirt 1/4" x 3/4":






Didn't take any pictures of fitting the O ring, but here it is. I've used a common nitrile ring for fitting; sure hope a vitron one exactly the same size is available!:






Drilled and reamed the wrist pin hole:






...then with a piece of 3/16" music wire inserted, used that to eyeball alignment for milling the rest of the rod recess:






Indicated the center and milled the rest of the slot:






Done!






Well, except for the oil hole. Probably tomorrow.


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## crankshafter (Apr 17, 2012)

Dave.
The webster was the first IC engine that I buildt, and get me hooked. And it's still my favorite-build 
BTW you are doing some nice work. keep on posting pic's 

Best regards
CS


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## dgjessing (Apr 17, 2012)

After a successful trip to the scrap yard this afternoon I've started on the frame:






This mystery alloy plate is .333" thick instead of the .313 called for on the plans, so I'll have to adjust here and there. 

On to the head! ;D


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## rudydubya (Apr 18, 2012)

dgjessing  said:
			
		

> ... I've used a common nitrile ring for fitting; sure hope a vitron one exactly the same size is available!...



Dave, I've used both kinds of O rings in my Upshur, both supposedly the same 3/4" size. But the Viton rings were a few thousandths smaller than the Nitriles I used when I was making the engine. I wanted to use the Viton rings but didn't want to make a new piston, so I just wrapped a couple of turns of thin aluminum foil strip in the ring groove to shim the Viton rings and get an equivalent seal. Yes, I know, the coward's way out, but it works fine and I haven't had to change rings since.

Regards,
Rudy


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## dgjessing (Apr 18, 2012)

Nothing to show tonight... I've got the head squared up & ready for more work. I've made it out of a piece of 1" thick stuff instead of 3/4", thinking that I'll cut some cooling fins in the extra quarter inch. 

The neighborhood Autozone is supposed to have the '69 Charger points for me tomorrow. I'm thinking junk yard for a coil. 

Does anyone know the overall outside diameter of the gears specified? I'm going to be making my own... I can figure it out myself, but it would be cool to have a rough idea. 

I saw a perfect piece of stainless steel for the flywheel today at the scrap yard (yes, went there two days in a row) but then I thought "do I really want the aggravation of trying to machine a stainless flywheel?", and passed it up. I'll hold out for CRS or cast iron. 

What do We think of using propane instead of liquid fuel? It seems kinda appealing... I've got a nice valve that fits on top of a propane torch cylinder, and I've also got an acetylene regulator from an old torch. Seems like I could control the flow pretty well with all that stuff, but other than that I have no idea what I'm talking about.


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## Maryak (Apr 18, 2012)

OD = (N+2)/P

Where N = No of Teeth and P = Diametral Pitch.

e.g. OD = (40+2)/32 = 1.3125" and OD = (20+2)/32 = 0.6875" or OD = (40+2)/40 = 1.050" and OD = (20+2)/40 = 0.550"

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob


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## Blogwitch (Apr 18, 2012)

Dave,

You can download programs that will work it out very easily for you, just enter number of teeth and whatever MOD or DP number and it will give you a readout of everything you ever needed to know about your gears.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=17916.0

For running these small engines on gas, you really need to have a home made small pressure regulator and also a demand valve that automatically turns the gas flow off if the engine stops.

Plans for these are available free of charge if you have a good search about on the net, but if you have no joy, and still want to go down that route, email me and I will sort out some diagrams or plans for you. 
The demand valves usually require you to buy some bits to build them, I got a dozen sets of needle valves and diaphragms off eblay from the US for about 70 bucks, incl. postage.


John


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## gmac (Apr 18, 2012)

Dave;

There are plans for a Propane Demand Regulator on the FAME website.  http://www.floridaame.org/

Check under "Tips and Links" then "Assorted Model Engine Building Tips", check

TIP 3  by Richard Williams 11/12/2002
Propane Demand Regulator 

I've never used propane but assume this is what you're looking for. Hope it helps.

Cheers Garry


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 18, 2012)

How are you going to make your own gears? Do you have a set of gear cutters or are you going to grind a single tooth cutter and do it that way.--Brian


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## Paulsv (Apr 18, 2012)

Plans and parts for the propane valves are also available from Jerry Howell's website:

http://www.model-engine-plans.com/engineplans/bookshelf/demandvalve.htm


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## dgjessing (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice you guys - I'm mulling things over . I'm planning on cutting the gears with a single tooth fly cutter kinda thing. 

More work on the head today! Drilled the plug hole (undersize for now) and bored the cylinder recess in the four jaw on the lathe:







I then moved the chuck & part to the rotary table on the mill without disturbing the setup. It was not quite parallel to the table with the RT set to zero, so I used a dial indicator to find parallel: 






... then used a piece of tape with a pencil line on it to show a temporary new zero mark on the RT:






Finished drilling and counter boring the screw holes and the recess for the spark plug (remember I've got an extra 1/4" thickness which I plan to cut cooling fins in): 






I then milled the notch for the frame member and drilled and tapped for the connecting screws, the removed the excess thickness where the cooling fins will *not* be:






And here's the whole thing so far set together:


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## Blue_Rock (Apr 20, 2012)

Hi Dave, nice progress with your build... I'm enjoying your thread! Looks like you will overtaking me before too long. Keep up the good work.


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## dgjessing (Apr 20, 2012)

Fins!











Yes, one of the cuts is in the wrong place - I mistook .225 for .250 : Let's just ignore that, OK?


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## rebush (Apr 20, 2012)

Dave: I'm really enjoying the picture and description of your build as you go. I've always picked things up quicker by seeing something done than by reading about the same procedure. Your doing a great job and thanks for sharing. Roger


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## dgjessing (Apr 23, 2012)

Not a heck of a lot new:






Cut a piece for the base, but everything is just sitting there in the picture. Drilled and tapped the cylinder for the head bolts (does a 4/40 screw qualify for the name "bolt"?), drilled the transfer port, and drilled and tapped the valve block mounting holes. 

I've worked out the details of the timing gears using a cutter I've already got. Mine are going to be a bit larger in diameter than what the plans call for, which will shorten the exhaust valve rocker arm somewhat. 

Now I'm thinking about a Jan Ridders style vapor carb arrangement. But that's down the road a ways; plenty of time to change my mind on that 

I was disappointed not to find a Webster example at the NAMES show this past weekend


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## Blogwitch (Apr 24, 2012)

Dave,

I do like it when people stray from the religious 'have to built it exactly to the plans' route and start to 'fiddle' things along by using what they have, rather than spending more money on items they will most probably never use again.

The finned head on there looks like it really belongs, and I am sure your gears will be just fine.

Keep it up.


John


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## dgjessing (Apr 24, 2012)

Laid out the holes in the base on the bottom with pencil, since that's the reverse of the drawing, and I wanted to make sure I didn't screw it up on the mill. Actual location of the holes & counter bores done with the DRO on the mill:






(There is a piece of plywood under there to protect the mill's table)

And here is the assembled underside. I used all 10-24 cap screws instead of the 6-32 and 10-32 flat heads specified:






So there you have it so far:






I also picked up an M10x1 tap and did the spark plug hole today. Kinda neat to have a big assembly to look at instead of just a bunch of parts ;D


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## rhitee93 (Apr 25, 2012)

You are chugging right along. I am enjoying the build so far!


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## vcutajar (Apr 25, 2012)

Dave

I am following your build also. I never stop learning new things.

Vince


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## ozzie46 (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm following along too as the Webster is on my "to do" list. You're doing a good job.

  Ron


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## dgjessing (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks, everybody!

Worked on the crankshaft today. First made the bronze bushings and found a piece of 5/16" steel for the shaft:






I then roughed out the crank web and drilled and reamed holes for the shaft and crank pin:






The setup to mill the crank web sides equal:






Welded the web to the shaft:






... and cleaned that up on the lathe:






Next I brazed in the crank pin:






And here is the (*more or less) finished crankshaft in place:






* I've actually got a bit more work to do on the crank pin - it's a little crooked... I'm thinking I'll turn it down in diameter a little to fix that. I hope to do that with a boring head on the mill, cutting the outside diameter. Unfortunately though my mill won't turn in reverse, so I'm going to have to come up with a "left handed" boring tool to do it.


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## Blogwitch (Apr 26, 2012)

Dave,

To get around that sort of problem if ever you need to do it again is to turn the spigot that goes into the hole slightly smaller.

Then put a straight knurl on the spigot so that it is a tight fit in the hole. Press the two parts together in say your vice, and then silver solder from the back. 

The press fitting will hold the crankpin exactly square because of the shoulder you have machined on it, and the silver solder will fill up the knurled recesses on the back, making sure that the pin stays put.

John


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## dgjessing (Apr 26, 2012)

I _had_ a nice snug fit until I welded the shaft - the heat from that produced some scale inside the hole which needed to be sanded out. I should have saved reaming the crank pin hole until _after_ the weld job... :


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## cfellows (Apr 26, 2012)

Looks like you're making good steady progress, Dave. 

Chuck


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## bearcar1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Man I do like those fins in the cylinder head, Dave. I'll be watching with interest as I think that you will have a few more surprises for us to look forward to.

BC1
Jim


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## dgjessing (Apr 26, 2012)

Well this was kind of a nail-biter... 

Starting to cut:






Done, 1/1000 th at a time:






Much better! Now on to the connecting rod!


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## dgjessing (Apr 26, 2012)

Did the odd size big end on the lathe. Kind of an odd setup too, but hey:






Also kinda odd, I marked the major diameters of both ends on the lathe by holding the rod in this arbor. Just barely cleared the bed...






Then lots of milling, sanding and fitting later, here we have it:






That nylon washer is temporary. I now need to make a new main bushing for the crank end that has the appropriate extra length sticking out of the frame to hold the crank in the right place.


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## rhitee93 (Apr 26, 2012)

Nice  
That lathe setup for the big end sure looks intimidating. From the pic it doesn't look like it clears the bed


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## dgjessing (Apr 27, 2012)

Nothing major today. Lots of pesky software customers have been calling for tech support, plus it's my birthday and people keep stopping by to do nice things for me :

I epoxied the main bearings into the frame and made a bronze spacer to hold the crankshaft in the right spot in relation to the rod. I trimmed the thickness of the big end of the rod down to be a few thou less than the length of the crank pin, so now the screw holding it together can be tightened. Still need to replace the nylon washer with a brass or bronze one. I drilled 1/16" oil holes in the big end of the rod and the main bearings (then counter bored 1/8" a little ways to form tiny funnels). Made a permanent wrist pin from steel to replace the brass tubing one I was using to fit things. 







I've been running it in a little with a drill - compression seems good enough to run to me ;D

Started on the timing gears; made a 5/16" sleeve to fit over my existing 1/4" dia. arbor which I use to cut gears, and made the blank for the small one (18 tooth). I'm going to depart from the plans and make this little gear on the crankshaft independent of the flywheel. Just seems like it will be easier to me ...

I don't anticipate any progress this weekend as my darling wife and my mom have both got out of town, birthday-related activities planned for me


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## vcutajar (Apr 28, 2012)

Happy birthday Dave.

Vince


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## dgjessing (Apr 30, 2012)

vcutajar  said:
			
		

> Happy birthday Dave.
> 
> Vince



Thanks!

OK, the timing gear blanks ready to get teeth:






Note that I've got them marked so I can put them back on the mandrel in the same location. The mandrel is also marked so it goes in the lathe chuck the same way each time. 

Fly cutter in action:






And we have gears:






Mine are of 6061 aluminum instead of the steel the plans call for. I expect them to hold up just fine. 

On to the exhaust cam, and locating the cam shaft on the side frame. ;D


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## dgjessing (May 1, 2012)

Turned a suitable piece of mystery steel to the over-all outside diameter of the cam, drilled and reamed to fit the hub of the gear, and turned down the middle to the smallest diameter:






Used an end mill and the rotary table to form the lobe:






Cut it off and cleaned it up w/ belt sander and my hand:






And epoxied it to the gear:






The hub on the gear is a little short - I'll have to make a spacer to go in there to keep the cam from rubbing on the frame. 

Almost time for a flywheel - I'm going to run out and see if I can find a 4" CI dumbbell weight


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## Blogwitch (May 1, 2012)

Very nice job you are doing there Dave. :bow:

I do like the way you are using what you have got about you rather than worrying over the materials shown on the plans. 

Most things are grossly over engineered and so don't need expensive materials to make a running engine with the amount of use they get, making buying expensive materials absolutely silly. 

Use what you've got in the scrap box, I do for about 99% of the bits on engines I build.


John


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## dgjessing (May 1, 2012)

Thanks, John! I agree - I mean, if all goes well and this thing works flawlessly, it may be asked to run perhaps 5 or 6 hours at 1000 rpm in five minute increments over the course of the rest of my life. It doesn't need to be MIL-SPEC or anything... 

Made the shaft for the cam gear from brass, and pressed/epoxied it into the frame:






And here's the entire thing so far: 






I wish I could say that the gears meshed perfectly right off the bat, but... I got them a bit too close together and there was some binding. They aren't perfectly concentric, so I spent quite a while trying them in one place then the other to get the best mesh. I then made some center punch marks so I can put them back together where they fit best. Then I ran them in with a drill motor and a little valve grinding paste and oil on the teeth. A few minutes of this and they fit pretty well. 

I did go out flywheel shopping earlier and eventually found the mother lode at a used sports equipment place called "Play it Again Sports" - all the cast iron disks you could want at fifty cents a pound. This seventy-five cent one is even milled already:






Shouldn't take much work to make a hub and turn it into a nice flywheel ;D


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## dgjessing (May 2, 2012)

Trued up the weight... although it was machined, the center bore was not exactly concentric with the outer diameter, and of course the cast hub and rim weren't either. The original plan was to get rid of all the text, but once I got into it a ways I decided to keep it 






I heated up the weight to 500 f in the old toaster oven and measured the diameter of the bore:






(it grew about 1.5 thou...) then turned an aluminum hub blank to about half a thou larger then that:






Pressed those together and let them cool, resulting in a nice tight fit. Turned both ends down to about 7/8", drilled and reamed for the crankshaft, and drilled and tapped for a set screw. So here we have it to date:






I think having the timing gear independent of the flywheel will be an improvement; there isn't any weight to speak of in the gear train, unlike in the flywheel. The chance of the gear being knocked out of place (by a back fire, etc.) should therefore be less. Dunno if that's an issue or not, but I feel better about it. :


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## Blogwitch (May 2, 2012)

Dave,



> Dunno if that's an issue or not, but I feel better about it.



That is definitely the correct attitude to take. Make engines how you feel you should, not what everyone else expects.

You'll make some real blunders over your learning time (and they will get less), but if you accept them as facts of machining life, you will also gain that independence that a lot of home machinists never achieve.

Still looking very good.

John


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## cfellows (May 2, 2012)

Just a note that these cast iron weights show up at Goodwill stores a lot and the prices are usually dirt cheap.

Chuck


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## dgjessing (May 3, 2012)

Ignition cam and points mounting exactly according to the plans:






So you know I'm going to _have to_ go to a junk yard and get a coil and try to make a spark this afternoon ;D (Been meaning to go there and get a spare wheel for my daughter's car anyway...)

Then on to the valve block, which I'm thinking is going to be the most difficult part


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## rhitee93 (May 3, 2012)

I am still along for the ride with you on this one. I am excited to see it run!


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## dgjessing (May 3, 2012)

We have ignition! ;D


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## rhitee93 (May 3, 2012)

Oh, now that requires a video!
Congrats


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## dgjessing (May 3, 2012)

rhitee93  said:
			
		

> Oh, now that requires a video!
> Congrats



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0yFxH3r4QM[/ame]


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## rhitee93 (May 3, 2012)

Very cool  Thm:


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## dgjessing (May 4, 2012)

So onto that valve block! Cut the three pieces and glued them together so I could mill them all to exactly the same size at the same time:






I learned that you do NOT want to inhale any of the fumes when you heat super glued parts to separate them. Nasty...

And here are the three parts of the block more or less complete: 






I'm not going to bother with the little counter bores for valve seats. My valve guides will just be straight shafts epoxied into the blocks. The glue is rated for 600 degrees f - they won't go anywhere.


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## dgjessing (May 5, 2012)

Valves and valve guides today:






Yes, those are 2" common nails  I got to looking at them and found that they have perfectly round shanks a consistent .100" in diameter, and heads a bit more than 1/4". Not all the heads are concentric, but I spent some time selecting the best ones and used a dremel tool set up as a tool post grinder to shape them. Made about half a dozen then selected the best two. Used a number 38 drill (.101") to do the guides and they fit very well. I think they are going to work just fine ;D

I glued the guides into the blocks with JB Weld. Once that's cured up tomorrow I'll fit the valves to the seats with valve grinding paste.


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## Smithers (May 5, 2012)

Great idea leaving the text on the flywheel, adds heaps of character. I like it!

Andrew


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## ShedBoy (May 5, 2012)

Good score on nails
Brock


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## cfellows (May 5, 2012)

I don't want to second guess you on using the nails for valves, but if you have trouble with compression when you are trying to start the engine the first time, these valves would be the first place I'd look for problems. Not to say you shouldn't use the nails, just be aware that they may cause you problems.

Another problem you may have is sucking air in around the valve stem on the intake valve. These will cause your engine to run lean and it will be hard to make it run smoothly.

I only mention this because I've had an extraordinarily hard time getting valves to seat and for the seal between the stems and the guides to be relatively airtight. Valves seem to be one of the common problem areas with IC engines.

Chuck


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## dgjessing (May 6, 2012)

Chuck, nails for valves _sounds_ terrible, but they really do seem to be pretty good ;D

I lapped them to their seats, cut them to length, and drilled those impossibly tiny holes in the shafts for the keepers:







I tried making springs, got frustrated, and went and got Harbor Freight's spring assortment, just to see if I'd get lucky. I did - those are both from the assortment. They are larger in diameter then the plans call for but I just made the spring caps to fit them, and I think it will work fine. (Also picked up their Viton O ring assortment; hopefully there will be one to replace the current Nitrile piston ring.)

So here's the valve block installed on the head:






I'll cut those screws to length later. 

It's got what seems like OK compression , and you can see the intake valve operating on the down stroke. I need to make a head gasket - that will undoubtedly help compression-wise. 

On to the exhaust valve rocker arm! ;D


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## dgjessing (May 6, 2012)

Decided to make the rocker arm out of aluminum instead of steel. Beefed up the pivot point to 1/4" dia instead of 1/8" the plans called for, and added a steel insert where it rides on the cam. 






Racing mods... :


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## ShedBoy (May 6, 2012)

Nice 
Brock


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## dgjessing (May 7, 2012)

OK, I think I'm just about ready to try to run it:






I'm going to run out and get some coleman fuel and a lantern battery. 

What's the danger potential with these things? Any last bits of advice? I think I've got the valve and ignition timing right, and as you can see I'm going to try a rudimentary vapor carb setup.


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## dgjessing (May 7, 2012)

I can get it to fire on straight ether (starting fluid) squirted into the intake whilst turning it with an electric drill. Thm:

Unfortunately the flywheel has come loose from it's hub, so I need to take things apart and glue that together. I'm going to mill a square on the end of the crank too so I can pull the drill away if and when it actually starts.


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## Longboy (May 7, 2012)

dgjessing  said:
			
		

> OK, I think I'm just about ready to try to run it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Danger? Well Dave.....you may end up with "internal combustion disease". Some of its manifistations are: Can't believe you got it to run. Lying awake at nite waiting to get back to it the next day. The television and computor are no longer primary in your life. The only "material things" in life important to you are brass, iron, aluminum and steel......so just be aware as you finish the build.  The vapor carb works fine on these single cyl. engines.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 7, 2012)

This is when you get to find out if your valves are really sealing okay or not!!! I got really lucky when I built my Webster. It started right up and ran like a champion. Then I darn near went crazy trying to get the valves to seal on my Kerzel hit and miss engine.----Brian


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## dgjessing (May 7, 2012)

I think the valves are working OK - I got good compression, and it's sucking lots of bubbles in the vapor carb's intake. 

The new Viton ring seems to seal better than the old one. 

When does the spark take place - when the points close, or when they open? I should know this, but have managed to confuse myself...

I've epoxied the flywheel to the hub, and have made a hex nut into a starter drive collar thingie. 

We'll try it again tomorrow


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## Brian Rupnow (May 7, 2012)

It sparks when the points open. This collapses the primary field and induces a high voltage in the secondary coil windings.


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## dgjessing (May 7, 2012)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> It sparks when the points open.



Thanks! That confirms what all my past experience was telling me 

So with this engine we want the spark like 10 degrees BTDC, thereabouts?...


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## Catminer (May 8, 2012)

TDC is fine for a little engine, especially hit and miss.
Even a little past TDC will help soften the blow when it fires.

Peter


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## dgjessing (May 9, 2012)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> This is when you get to find out if your valves are really sealing okay or not!!!



They aren't :'(

Compression is far better with the valve block off and my finger over the transfer port. Need to do some tweaking...


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## Brian Rupnow (May 9, 2012)

You have no idea of the fun that lays ahead of you now!!! I can clearly remember, on my hit and miss engine build running clear vinyl tubing from exhaust port into a pail of water and spinning the engine by hand to see if it blew bubbles, thus proving that the exhaust valve really wasn't sealing. (It wasn't) I can remember making a screw in adapter that fitted in the spark plug hole and blowing my guts out with both valves closed and the same vinyl tubing leading from the intake port to the pail of water to see if it bubbled, thus proving that the intake valve was leaking. (it was). And so on, and so on. Eventually I got it, but not untill after remaking the valves and seats/cages a few times and finally building a valve seat cutting tool.


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## dgjessing (May 9, 2012)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> You have no idea of the fun that lays ahead of you now!!!



Fun fun fun! :


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## rhitee93 (May 9, 2012)

Whatever you do, please keep posing about it. I am learning a lot that I hope to be using soon. :bow:


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## dgjessing (May 9, 2012)

Well here's a weird problem - I'm getting a nice plump spark when I turn it over by hand (slowly), but no spark at all when turning it fast with a drill! Is my junk yard coil bad maybe?


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## dgjessing (May 9, 2012)

dgjessing  said:
			
		

> Well here's a weird problem - I'm getting a nice plump spark when I turn it over by hand (slowly), but no spark at all when turning it fast with a drill! Is my junk yard coil bad maybe?



Figured this one out - I had the anchor screw holding the points too tight. As near as I can tell this resulted in the moving point being a bit sluggish in it's movement. Apparently when turning slow the thing would creak and groan and return to the closed position, but when spinning fast it never closed. 

Damn... thought I had an ignition problem (instead of a leaky valve issue).


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## dgjessing (May 10, 2012)

rudydubya  said:
			
		

> ... so I just wrapped a couple of turns of thin aluminum foil strip in the ring groove to shim the Viton rings and get an equivalent seal.



Thanks for the tip! I just did the same to mine & the compression is much better. It's almost there - putt-putt-putts when turning with the drill, even a couple times after it's pulled away. And it outright runs for a second or two on ether ;D

The intake valve is still leaking though - turning it by hand slowly makes fuel come up out of the vapor carb's vent line. 

I feel like it's almost there!


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## dgjessing (May 11, 2012)

It lives!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Da8laaJaY&feature=youtu.be

I widened the ring groove in the piston slightly so the o-ring was free to move about (had been a light press-fit in the groove). This made the piston / ring slide a lot more freely in the cylinder, and apparently that's what was needed. 

I've made a rudimentary mixture control - it seems to be quite sensitive to this adjustment. 






Now I need to make a proper vapor carb with this adjustment mounted on the engines's frame (instead of the current jar w/tubes). 

I had switched to real gasoline as one of many things to try to get it running (that's what it's running on in in the video). Will try the coleman fuel again this afternoon (gas stinks!). 

 Thm:  ;D


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## thayer (May 11, 2012)

Very cool Dave, well done!

Thayer


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## rhitee93 (May 11, 2012)

Congratulations! I love it


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## vcutajar (May 11, 2012)

Congratulations Dave. Well done.

Vince


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## ShedBoy (May 11, 2012)

Nice one Dave, it must feel good to get it going.

Brock


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## Blogwitch (May 11, 2012)

Very well done indeed Dave, I never had any doubts about it at all. th_wav :bow:

Just a note about the engine, don't forget to give it a drink of oil otherwise it will soon wear itself away.

The late Bob Shores swore by the use of 5% WD40 addition to his fuel to keep his engines in fine condition, the first couple of tankfuls he gave it 10%, just to help with the running in.


John


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## Brian Rupnow (May 11, 2012)

Feels good, doesn't it!!! Congratulations, and welcome to the world of people who have built their own internal combustion engine from scratch.---Brian


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## dgjessing (May 11, 2012)

Thanks, everybody! It does indeed feel great ;D



			
				Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> The late Bob Shores swore by the use of 5% WD40 addition to his fuel to keep his engines in fine condition, the first couple of tankfuls he gave it 10%, just to help with the running in.



Does oil in the fuel work with a vapor carb? I'm guessing that it does, as the gas I'm using is mixed with oil (for my two-stroke lawnmower), the level is going down in the jar, and it's not just oil at the bottom of the jar. But I'm not sure... 

I still need to fix the leaky intake valve - I'm getting a puff out the mixture valve's intake every time it fires. 

I've probably started it up 20 times this afternoon (a couple times with a flick of the wrist instead of the drill)! 

It needs to be leaned out as it warms up, and squeezing the intake tube seems to act as a throttle pretty well. Can't wait to make a new tank with real adjustments.


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## Blogwitch (May 12, 2012)

Dave,

We had this discussion about oil in a vapour carb a while back, and the general concensus was that it does let the oil through.


John


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## rudydubya (May 12, 2012)

Congratulations on a nice runner Dave.  Thm: And thanks for letting us tag along.

Regards,
Rudy


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## Catminer (May 12, 2012)

Well done Dave, sure feels good eh!
Keep up the good work.

Peter


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## Blue_Rock (May 12, 2012)

Congrats Dave, she sounds sweet. What's next?


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## cfellows (May 12, 2012)

Very nice, Dave. That first run kind of gets you hooked, huh? Great build!

Chuck


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## Maryak (May 12, 2012)

Dave,

Great work :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## dgjessing (May 13, 2012)

OK, I've made a simple control gizmo to go on top if the vapor carb. It allows adjustment of both the air/vapor mix, and the overall volume of vapor/air mix allowed to the engine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQWALAVi3qQ&feature=youtu.be

It certainly helps, but I'm not satisfied with it yet. This afternoon I'm going to experiment with different fuel/oil mixes - the stuff I'm using is to ancient Lawn Boy specs of 8 oz oil per gallon, which is a LOT of oil... 

I want to make a fixture of some sort to hold the vapor tank in place on the base plate, and also make a wood base for it that will accommodate the coil & battery. 

I need to replace the main bearings too - they were kinda sloppy to begin with and all this testing has not improved them. Maybe ball bearings...


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## dgjessing (May 13, 2012)

Good progress today! 

I think straight Coleman fuel with no oil is the ticket. The gasoline/oil mix WAS getting more oily as the fuel was drawn off, and this resulted in no running while there was still a good bit of "stuff" left in the tank. So if I did that it would mean I'd have to dump the tank from time to time to get rid of the left over oil, which sounds like a mess. With straight Coleman fuel it runs just as well almost empty as half full, which will be better. 

I've been taking notes, and now have a reliable cold start routine, and can also adjust the mixture as it warms up and keep it running for several minutes. It then over heats and dies. I think a cooling fan is in order, and I've located a couple of 2 1/2" 12v ones in doorstop computers sitting around here ;D

Since there is no oil in the fuel I'm going to have to do the cylinder oiler per the plans. So this coming week I'll tear it down to do that, plus bearings, oiler, fan, base, etc., and maybe some "pretty". :

I'm thoroughly hooked - thinking a hit & miss next...


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## Longboy (May 14, 2012)

More likely Dave that your engine is dieing from no lube rather than overheating. Your going to find that with no oil the piston will get sticky in the bore, stall and gall. WD40 or equivalent mixed with the Coleman doesn't have a residue issue. May wanna try this blend to evalueate before a mechanical oiler.      Dave


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## dgjessing (May 14, 2012)

Dave, I've been liberally oiling and squirting WD40 in the end of the cylinder when running on straight gas - it's not seizing up. I think I need to revisit the leaky intake valve and/or screw around with the mixture controls. I'll be happy if I can get it to run five minutes at a time reliably... 

Replacing the main bearings may help too - they were quite sloppy, which could conceivably make the ignition timing & dwell float around somewhat. I've got some sealed ball bearings I'm going to put in. 

Today's progress on the fixin' up:


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## dgjessing (May 15, 2012)

Progress! Bored out the side plates for sealed bearings, and cleaned up and (slightly) polished things. Wood base is glued up and will be ready for sanding & finishing tomorrow. ;D


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## gabby (May 15, 2012)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!   now that is flash bling :bow:


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## cfellows (May 16, 2012)

Dave,

I've been piddling around with the vapor fuel tank / carburetor on my plumbing parts engine for months. Sometimes it runs great and other times it's very temperamental. I've been using WD40 mixed with Coleman fuel and that lubricates things nicely without any residue in the tank.

My problem seems to be one of the fuel mixture being too lean. I know I'm sucking some air in through the intake valve stem, but despite 3 different attempts at remaking the valve and the valve guide, I can't seem to get it right. I can tell I have this problem because when I squirt a little oil on the intake valve stem with the engine running, it starts smoking out the exhaust. My engine also seems to be really sensitive to the level of fuel in the fuel tank.

The thing is driving me nuts!

Chuck


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## Blogwitch (May 16, 2012)

Chuck,

I don't want to hijack this post, but there are a couple of easy ways to solve your leaking guide problem, both entail the use of viton o-rings.

Silicone is no use as the WD40 will destroy them.

The top one is usually the easiest as sometimes there is enough room to do the job in situ.


John


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## dgjessing (May 16, 2012)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> My engine also seems to be really sensitive to the level of fuel in the fuel tank.
> 
> The thing is driving me nuts!
> 
> Chuck



I'm developing a theory related to this... My tank has an air inlet tube that runs straight up and down, and I can move it closer or further away from the fuel level by sliding it in and out of the valve block. I've been screwing around with this adjustment some today. 

On the intake stroke air is effectively blown down at the surface of the fuel, agitating it. The closer to the surface of the "pond", the more agitation. Also, the faster it runs, the more agitation because the air is coming in faster. The agitation increases the exposed surface of fuel, effectively making the mixture richer. I think that the unsteady idle I'm experiencing is caused by the mixture varying like this - it speed up, gets too rich, then slows down and leans out, making it run faster, and around and around we go. 

I'm going to experiment with some sort of diffuser on the end of the air inlet tube which makes the air blow out sideways instead of directly down. Maybe that will calm things down (?).


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## dgjessing (May 16, 2012)

Hey - it works! I stuffed a wad of coarse steel wool into the tank and now the thing can run at a constant speed, and for much longer. ;D


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## vcutajar (May 16, 2012)

That's good news Dave.

Vince


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## cfellows (May 16, 2012)

dgjessing  said:
			
		

> Hey - it works! I stuffed a wad of coarse steel wool into the tank and now the thing can run at a constant speed, and for much longer. ;D



Good idea, I'll have to try that. Here's a picture of an inlet tube I made to diffuse and spread out the air flow. That also seems to help.

Hmmm, wonder if a wad of swarf would work instead of steel wool ???

Chuck


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## dgjessing (May 17, 2012)

The steel wool thing must have been a fluke - it's no help today 

I'm about ready to give up and buy a proper model airplane engine carburetor (although I'll no doubt try your inlet tube, Chuck while I'm waiting for it to arrive). 

I guess this is why you don't see vapor carbs in use on "real" small engines :


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## Paulsv (May 17, 2012)

I'm wondering if these might be possibilities to consider for the Webster:

Jerry Howell's 2-Jet throtttle carb:

http://www.model-engine-plans.com/engineplans/combustion/howell2jet.htm?30,10

Or his propane system:

http://www.model-engine-plans.com/engineplans/bookshelf/demandvalve.htm


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## Catminer (May 17, 2012)

Only one way to find out 

Peter


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## cfellows (May 17, 2012)

Paulsv  said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if these might be possibilities to consider for the Webster:
> 
> Jerry Howell's 2-Jet throtttle carb:
> 
> ...



I have a set of the Jerry Howell 2-jet carburetor plans. They are kind of complicated and hard to figure out. I also have a set of carburetor plans from Bob Shores which is simpler and easier to understand. I might give that one a shot.

http://www.bobshores.com/bullethercules.html

Chuck


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## dgjessing (May 17, 2012)

Well this afternoon me and the vapor carb and the Webster are getting along pretty well together. I seem to have hit upon a set of optimal settings for the two adjustment screws and the fuel level (the later is a big deal as you say, Chuck.). Sigh... 

I've started it up several times over the past hour and it idles pretty steady at about 180 to 200 rpm every time. If it behaves the same way tomorrow and next week I'll be pretty happy


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## fcheslop (May 18, 2012)

Good luck with the carbs watching closely as I have a Little Angel and some days it will run with a simple push on the flywheel and other days just wont, it will pop and bang but not go and it seems even worse in the winter.
It just doesn't live up to its name
Nice job on the Webster :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
best wishes Frazer


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## dgjessing (May 20, 2012)

It's been running pretty darn reliably lately; I've been turning it off with the switch rather than just having it die all day today ;D

Made the little slashed-end exhaust pipe for it per the plans, which I swear is making it run better :


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## dgjessing (Jul 12, 2015)

I guess I've taken a three year break .  (Been playing with model airplanes ).  

Anyway, contrary to what I said in the last post, the Webster never did work reliably with the vapor carburetor. It's mainly been collecting dust... But a few months ago I fitted a model airplane engine carb to it, and this afternoon I made a bracket to hold a fuel tank, and this evening I've got it running! 

Pictures soon


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## dgjessing (Jul 15, 2015)

Well not so fast.... It is indeed running much more reliably, but I'm having an issue with the piston tightening up in the bore as it gets hot. I'm thinking the viton o-ring piston ring is probably at fault. After a cold start, perhaps 4 minutes into running nice and steady it starts to squeak a bit, then soon abruptly stops. The piston is obviously tighter right afterwards. Let it cool off and repeat. I'll take it apart and look into it soon. 

I'm running it on fully synthetic, 10% nitro glow fuel. This because I've always got this stuff around for the model airplanes. 

I have retarded the ignition timing a bit, from just before TDC to just after, which helps to smooth out the running. 

I seem to have the needle valve setting and starting procedure worked out for pretty good reliability. 

I need to make up a friction holding gizmo for the throttle arm.


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## dgjessing (Jan 3, 2020)

Hey long time no see! This time the delay has been motorcycles taking up all my time. 

Still into that, but the other day I got the Webster down off the shelf and cleaned it up. The battery was of course dead (5 years...) so instead I put some leads on it so the ignition runs off a 12v power supply. Big fat blue spark now . After no luck with the model airplane carb I went back to the original vapor carb. Still no luck, but I noticed it would run briefly if I pushed down the intake valve while cranking it. Just now, I rooted through my spring collection and found a lighter one for the intake valve, and that's done the trick! I believe it's running better than ever before - starts right up and runs pretty steady until I turn off the ignition. 

The big end rod bearing is really sloppy - need to fix that.


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