# Measurement equipment



## Ryan (Jul 5, 2013)

After discovering I was getting pretty inconsistent readings with a cheap $30 ebay Digital caliper.  decided  I should invest in some decent measurement equipment.

 I have read advice that old school vernier calipers  and micrometres,   no dials  or  electronics to go out of calibration are every bit as accurate as their electronic counterparts. would I be correct that if you have some accurate standards like gauge blocks or setting standards then you can simply verify and adjust  your mechanical micrometres at home. with electronic,well aapart from sending them to a professional calibration service there  is not much a hobbyist could do?

I nearly died at the price of some top brand of electronic calipers and micrometres but thought,  the price of the mechanical ones are not too bad. 

 I'm thinking  Mityutoyo because that seems to be the most readily available brand in Australia. Perhaps 200mm vernier calipers, 25mm and 50mm outside mics  and to measure  internal diameter simply use inside spring calipers and  take the measurements off them with the micrometres? anything else I am overlooking?


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## aarggh (Jul 5, 2013)

An analog DTI/TI is handier than a digital one in my opinion as you are generally looking for deviation, and an analog DTI/TI will immediately show deviation, whereas a digital one will have lag displaying the readings. For calipers though, I believe a digital one is better than an analog for ease and simplicity. I have tried quite a few calipers and DTI's of various types and prices, and generally I've found issues with repeatability with most of the cheap ones. Enough that you don't get the same measurement twice, and the dial doesn't always return correctly. I ended up with some second hand Mitutoyo's and love them. One thing I would very highly recommend is to buy some standards in a range of sizes as thy come up on ebay. Standards are a precision rod that allows you to calibrate calipers and dial indicators so that you know if what you have isn't measuring correctly, or how much you need to add/subtract when measuring. They are usually Japanese, most available are Mitutoyo that I've seen. But I will say they are just invaluable. Nothing worse than not knowing if your precision measuring equipment is accurate!

If you can only get one of each, get as good a quality DTI/DI, and caliper that you can, and treat them as though they are priceless so you can always be assured of their accuracy and longevity.

cheers, Ian


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2013)

> After discovering I was getting pretty inconsistent readings with a cheap $30 ebay Digital caliper



In my experience +- .002  in is typical fine for many measurements on a model but not for pistons and cylinders. 



> decided I should invest in some decent measurement equipment.




I prefer Used starrette  buy nothing wrong with mitutoyo. 


Sounds like you are mostly on the right track.  gauge blocks will keep you on track no need for outside labs in a home shop. 
you only need to make sure your various instruments agree. 

a 25mm mic and a set of dial or verier calipers should serve you well.  

You only need a 50mm mic if doing larger than 25 mm bore on an engine. 
You may want to add a height Gage ,surface plate and angle block for layouts.  
Tin


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## Ryan (Jul 5, 2013)

something I didn't think about.  is no big deal to use metric micrometres  when working from Imperial plans?


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## Swifty (Jul 5, 2013)

Strange as it may seem, lots of machinists / toolmakers made do for years using micrometers and vernier calipers and produced very accurate work. I recall the first time that I used a dial caliper and later a digital caliper, it was all downhill after that, I got lazy and preferred the new verniers. Accuracy was not improved at all, probably just saved a few seconds on measuring.

I wonder how many machinists these days can read a proper vernier caliper.

Paul.


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## chrsbrbnk (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm a tool and die maker and hardly anyone (except the excessively cheap) uses dial calipers except in the 12"  the biggest problem with them is dirt in the rack  and being dropped .  the digital  even the cheap ones are just tougher.  all measuring tools wear out!! so don't go buying  some ancient starret or brown and sharp mic. except for a paperweight .   there's sort of a rule where your measuring tool ought to be several times more accurate than the part your measuring .  so like a caliper is starting to get pretty marginal if you looking for +or- .001.  thats kinda why they sell mic.s .    most important is sit down with your measuring tool and like a set of gauge blocks  and gauge pins and learn how they feel to measurement .


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## gus (Jul 5, 2013)

Here is my 2 cents worth.

I have given up measuring cylinder bores with Mitutoyo or Starrett Digital or Vernier.It is a struggle to get a good reading with two contact points. A slight shift would give varied readout.
Was boring the cylinder for Webster IC Engine,I used a three point Holtest Inside Micrometer and got a good reliable reading. Was able to bore to print------spot on. The Holtest Inside Micrometer came in a set of 4 piece. China made.Finishing was comparable to Mitutoyo.
Mitutoyo quoted me US$2080. Bought Chinese Holtest from Arceurotrade.UK for US$510 landed in Singapore.
I found Outside Micrometer best to measure OD. When turning critical ODs,I have stopped use Vernier or Digital Calipers as I get varied readings.


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## Anko (Jul 5, 2013)

I use a cheap dial caliper, I checked it agains some gage blocks in five points of the scale and I got a margin of about +/-0.02 mm, not bad for the price.

For presision instruments you can get very lucky with chinese stuff, but you have to inspect what you are getting frist, of course you will never get the smoothness and quality feeling of a brand name instrument.

As for brand names, I heard that Starrett is now making some of his products in China, also Moore & & wright seems to be now onle cheap chinese stuff with logo (please correct me if I´m wrong).

Mitutoyo would be my choice.

Saludos


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## tornitore45 (Jul 5, 2013)

I have
1 Mitutoyo Digital
1 Mitutoyo Dial
2 Chinese Digital
3 Chinese Dial
1 German Wernier with a 50mm nonius

3 Vintage American Made Micrometer
1 Chinese Micrometer
1 Chinese Micrometer with the mechanical counter

ALL of the Calipers repeat to 1/1000 on a gauge block regardless of origin
ALL Micrometers repeat to "the right line"  if they are off 1 tenth I can not tell for sure. I could see 3 tenths even with my poor eyesight.

For OD I use the caliper until I am about 0.020" over and then switch to Micrometer so I am in the same or at most in the next 25/1000 division and dumb ass reading error are harder to do.

I woulod trust my calipers to 0.002 if had no micrometer.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2013)

> something I didn't think about. is no big deal to use metric micrometres when working from Imperial plans?


That my friend that  is a decision you must make. 
the whole metric conversion translation adaptation subject has been discussed here probably a dozen times. 

All my machines and all but one micrometer I have will measure in imperial units and that is the common material size so that is what I work in.  

if you machines and local material sizes are metric that is probably the route to go. 

as far as converting plans from imperial to metric you have three choices. 
1 simply do the math multiply the dimension in inches by 25.4 to get a true conversion. 

2   Scale the model up         make 1/32 in = 1mm    

3 scale the model down  and make 1/16 in = 1 mm     

Tin


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## Hopper (Jul 5, 2013)

If you want accuracy and reliability, get the Mitutoyo or similar quality mechanical micrometers. The larger ones usually come with a test bar for setting.

Calipers are handy for depth measurements and length measurements etc but it is very difficult to get as good a "feel" with them and hence often not as accurate as mikes.


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## Ryan (Jul 6, 2013)

what do people seem to find more useful in model engineering. 0.01mm graduation or 0.001/micron graduation indicators?


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## rodw (Jul 6, 2013)

Ryan said:


> what do people seem to find more useful in model engineering. 0.01mm graduation or 0.001/micron graduation indicators?



I am only a noob but I have been setting up a DRO and recently purchased a TESA 0.002mm indicator but for this project I went back to using my cheap Chinese 0.01 indicator.


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## OrangeAlpine (Jul 6, 2013)

Not only are all machinists not created equal, their eyes are not either.  I find that vernier calipers are almost impossible to read.  I know how, my eyes just will not cooperate.  Same with Starrett mics.  Nothing wrong with them, my eyes just do not correctly see the line alignment.  As a result, I use dial calipers most of the time.  When they are not good enough, I use my Lufkin mics.  Calipers are no better than your technique.  I find they agree with the mics down to one thou.

No one has mentioned the telescoping gauges for measuring bores.  Cheap and give readings as good as your and your primary measuring device.

Bill


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 6, 2013)

A couple more thoughts.
 get mic with the fine reading.  You may not always need it but there when you do. 

Verier are fine. and IMHO reading a verier is a skill all machinists should learn. In USAF tech school that is what was in the tool box. some of us had and brought our own dials to class. 

I think the main appeal of the digital calipers ie ease of reading there is no math no counting lines etc. 

when my son was young I tough him to use verniers only after he took a measurement and did the math was he allowed to use the digital as a check.  same thing with math do the math and then check on the calculator.  

Like others have said even the cheap import stuff can be good. but the only way to know that is try before you buy check the feel and accuracy in the store. 

Tin


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## Paulsv (Jul 6, 2013)

I just broke down and bought a Mitutoyu digital micrometer.  I have a Starrett analog micrometer, but it was becoming a  PITA to read with my old eyes, especially when miking something that was held in the lathe or milling machine, so that I had to read it at a funny angle, or in less than ideal light.  Also, I like the fact that with the digital, you can read either imperial or metric with the same mike.  I have a mitu dial caliper that I like, and that seems to give me very repeatable measurements, if I am careful, but I think I will ask Santa for a mitu digital caliper next Christmas, for the same reasons.


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## Paulsv (Jul 6, 2013)

OrangeAlpine said:


> No one has mentioned the telescoping gauges for measuring bores.  Cheap and give readings as good as your and your primary measuring device.
> 
> Bill


 
The problem I have with telescoping guages is in measuring the guage after I have guaged the hole.  Hard to manipulate the guage and the mic, and get repeatable readings off the guage.  Any secret to this, or tips anyone can give me?


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## Swifty (Jul 6, 2013)

Paulsv said:


> The problem I have with telescoping guages is in measuring the guage after I have guaged the hole.  Hard to manipulate the guage and the mic, and get repeatable readings off the guage.  Any secret to this, or tips anyone can give me?



After using the gauge on the bore, I always hold the gauge by the plunger end and aim to get the same feel on the micrometer as I did on the bore. Move the micrometer around slightly to make sure you have the highest point, this helps if using gauges that may have a slight flat worn on the end.

Paul.


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## Goldflash (Jul 6, 2013)

Paulsv said:


> The problem I have with telescoping guages is in measuring the guage after I have guaged the hole.  Hard to manipulate the guage and the mic, and get repeatable readings off the guage.  Any secret to this, or tips anyone can give me?



With using Tele gauges the trick I was taught in the air force was to take 4 0r 5 measurements and then average out the readings which will be reasonably accurate. ( you can normally get a reading that is accurate to 0.0005" or 1/2 a thousandth of an inch which is close enough for most work.   
The hard part is when you are measuring a deep bore and trying to see if the bore is either parallel or tapered depending on the final result that you require. 
I still have my Mitutoyo Micrometers and Verniers etc that are 30 years old and as good as the day that I bought them. 
My eyes aren't as good as they used to be and sometimes I find a head magnifier really usefull for taking readings and checking surface finish and assembly of small components.


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## Bastelmike (Jul 7, 2013)

tornitore45 said:


> I would trust my calipers to 0.002 if had no micrometer.


 
Agreed. Except the 3 plastic ones I use to check the size of screws.
With my best brand quality ones measurements are repeatably correct within +- 0.001"



tornitore45 said:


> For OD I use the caliper until I am about 0.020" over and then switch to Micrometer so I am in the same or at most in the next 25/1000 division and dumb ass reading error are harder to do.


When working on the lathe, my practice is similar. When machining good fits, I turn them down to 0.3-0.4mm oversize using a caliper and then start using an OD mic for final cuts.

If tolerances of 0.1mm or more are acceptable, I only use my better calipers on the lathe.

Mike


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## tornitore45 (Jul 7, 2013)

Quote "Any secret to this, or tips anyone can give me?" 

It help using a mike stand. Do not need a fancy one a home made will do.
My mike stand uses a segment of breake rotor for a base.


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## tornitore45 (Jul 7, 2013)

Bastelmike said:


> Agreed. Except the 3 plastic ones I use to check the size of screws.


 
Well a plastic caliper does not belong around a machine. I have a Swiss Made Plastic Dial caliper, reads in 0.1mm. is 40 years old and is OK. I used it at work to measure size of electronic components, not a critical operation.
Now sits next to the scews bins rack.


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## pete (Jul 8, 2013)

FWIW,
I've used and own everything from dirt cheap 4" and 6" digital calipers that were given to me as a "gift" for renewing a couple of subscriptions, to Mitutoyo dial and solar powered digital calipers. Due to the built in slop, grinding powder and whatever else is binding up those free calipers, I wouldn't even trust them for woodworking levels of accuracy. All calipers and for sure digital's certainly aren't equal in my experience. No doubt there are other digital calipers just as good as Mitutoyo's or possibly even a bit better that are or would be more common in other parts of the world. But on forums where most of the members are American or at least North American and professional machinists like Practical Machinist, Mitutoyo digital calipers are generally the caliper of choice, and are judged about as good as you can expect. But you also need very consistent technique to get decent accuracy from any set of calipers no matter who makes them. There are some lesser known European brands that are supposed to be very good, but I have zero hands on experience with them.

That thumbwheel on most calipers isn't what you use while closing them on a part, it's designed to be used for larger movements, your supposed to either close the jaws between your fingers or both hands with larger measurements. And you use that consistent feel or method every single time. While most good calipers are only rated at generally + - a couple of thou. High quality calipers should at least make repeatable measurements to quite low tollerance levels. The actual measurement reading may be off that +- .002, but those readings should at least be repeatable to well under .0005 if the user does his part. I can say that while most well respected manufacturer's state there calipers are only accurate to that + - .002 level, mine are well under that with any gauge block I've tested them with so far. That +- .002 number  is a maximum allowable tollerance and certainly not the average. Mine so far will do under .001. But all of this is only true for almost brand new equipment. And I still really only trust calipers to that + - .002 level.

But if you start to look around, you'll also see  that many calipers and especially the digital ones today don't have those inside jaws for measuring bores. That's because the design of those calipers that have those inside jaws just isn't very accurate, and the smaller the bore the less accurate they are. There's usually a narrow flat ground on each jaw. So your not using point contact to measure bores. And on a lot of calipers, the distance between those inside jaws faces doesn't agree with the distance between the outside jaw faces, so even that measurement isn't all that accurate. But those inside jaws can still be used for something like measuring slots, you do need to cheat and just set the calipers to the slot size, lock that setting and then measure over the jaws with a good micrometer. But your then using the calipers much like a gauge and using other methods to obtain an accurate measurement.

Obviously all this equipment wasn't even available at one time, yet fairly high precision parts were still done using probably not much more than yardsticks or shop built gauges, and the old school inside and outside slip joint calipers that can't give you an actual measurement of anything. Or they used feel and comparing one part against another one. For example the piston fit to the bore. It was probably and mostly due to developing interchangeable threads and parts fit that drove the requirements for accurate measuring equipment. And while I wouldn't want to, I'd bet most engines shown on this forum could be built using nothing more than those slip joint inside and outside calipers and a good 6" or 12" scale along with a very experienced touch. The part sizes wouldn't be exact to micrometer levels, but the engine should still operate just as well. 

Your thoughts may differ, but in my shop and for how I work, calipers are by a large margin the most used tool anytime I'm in my shop. For that reason I bought a cheaper but still fairly accurate set of off shore $40.00 calipers for the rough work, and a set of those 6" Mitutoyo solar powered digital's. I can say those Mit. calipers are the very best I've ever used so far. I also own a 6"and 12" set of Mitutoyo dial calipers, but I still very much prefer the digital's for there very fine feel while measuring. But they cost enough that I make a real effort to keep them away from any dirt or swarf, and I make sure they don't get placed anywhere they could be damaged or dropped. But that's just good shop practice, and any good equipment should be treated the same. But even with parts that require measurement's to micrometer accuracy, I'm still using calipers to get me close before I do start using the mikes. So if the tool is going to be used that much and depended on to give accurate readings? Then I think you have no choice but to buy a good set.

Due to that interchangeable parts requirement in industry, they are required in some company's to test and recalibrate there metrology equipment to very very tight levels, and sometimes to do so multiple times per year. At the hobby level and for our own parts were obviously under no need to do the same. But just to reduce the mistakes and the need to remember any fudge factors, it's nice if all our equipment at least agrees with each other for measurement. The actual measurements certainly don't need to meet NIST levels. But I think having them adjusted to read the same, or at least  knowing for sure there are inaccuracy's is very important. So buying a set of cheaper gauge blocks as someone already mentioned is a very good idea. And the more you use gauge blocks, the more uses you find for them. I certainly wouldn't want to be without mine. You just use them as your reference standard, and everything gets calibrated to those standards. YMMV, but this sure seems to work very well for me.

Most builds here probably don't need even caliper accuracy levels for a lot of the parts. Yet there are some items that do need everything you can afford for tooling. Checking straightness, lobe lift and position on something like an I.C. cam does need a bit more than the very cheapest tool you can find. Buying measuring equipment at the cheapest possible price can end up being very costly at times. I've got a 1924 edition of a book about building proper master gauges used in industry. Those master gauges were to be used to test the everyday gauges. They talk about setting those master gauges on a lathes faceplate for drilling boring and precision grinding to 5 decimal places back in 1924 using a shop built Dial Test Indicator and shop built hardened and ground machinist buttons. And while I've got the equipment to measure just how far I'd be out from replicating those 1924 efforts, I really doubt my machine tools or my skills could do as well as they managed almost 90 years ago.

My apology's, it seems I went a bit OT to your questions about calipers. :hDe:

Pete


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## gus (Jul 9, 2013)

Goldflash said:


> With using Tele gauges the trick I was taught in the air force was to take 4 0r 5 measurements and then average out the readings which will be reasonably accurate. ( you can normally get a reading that is accurate to 0.0005" or 1/2 a thousandth of an inch which is close enough for most work.
> The hard part is when you are measuring a deep bore and trying to see if the bore is either parallel or tapered depending on the final result that you require.
> I still have my Mitutoyo Micrometers and Verniers etc that are 30 years old and as good as the day that I bought them.
> My eyes aren't as good as they used to be and sometimes I find a head magnifier really usefull for taking readings and checking surface finish and assembly of small components.



Hi GoldFlash,

Gus is about to move into the same category of elderly citizen eye sight in about 40 days ,Gus will be 70. 
Reading vernier is a struggle. Need very good lighting. Fortunately I can still read Mikes but reading glass now not required at close range.

TokyuHands,Osaka,Japan.
Just Bought a cheapy China made "Dremel lookalike" but comes in a good looking case and an array of min grinding tools. See foto.The finished quality looks good. Cost me 6,000 Japanese Yen. Cheaper than Dremel. Hope it will last. Will use this "Dremel" to mark all the CTC Gear Cutters and future bought cutters.Weather fine but bit hot.


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## wakeup (Jul 9, 2013)

When I did my apprenticeship the "sequence of accuracy" was (partly tongue in cheek, to make the point)
1/  Piece of string with knots in
2/  Wooden rule
3/  Steel Rule
4/  Vernier caliper
5/  Micrometer

The rule of thumb was that checking was always done with the next highest in the sequence of accuracy, that a feature was generated with.  So, if a part was made using a piece of string with knots in, it was a waste of time using a micrometer to check it.  The logical checking instrument, in this case would be a wooden rule.
I have a Mitutoyo vernier caliper that I use for 95% of my measuring, especially when roughing to slightly oversize.
I use a 0-25mm Moore & Wright micrometer which gets used for anything in the range, when accuracy is required, within 0.005mm anyway.  A Starret 25-50mm for that range.
A Verdict 0.001mm DTI for accurate set ups, an assortment of cheap dial indicators for other stuff.
Don't neglect the value of a _good_ steel rule......
I won't use anything with a battery in, because batteries are always flat when you need them
Have a look at Long Island Indicator for opinions about especially indicators, but measuring stuff in general.  It's _very_ worthwhile.
best of luck, cheers
Bill


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## jack620 (Jul 9, 2013)

wakeup said:


> I won't use anything with a battery in, because batteries are always flat when you need them



Funny you should say that Bill. Yesterday I bought a Mitutoyo 150mm digital (ie battery) vernier. I currently use a Mit dial vernier which I love, but I on a couple of occasions I have misread it. Don't ask me how- I guess I was being careless. Anyway, no chance of misinterpreting a digital display.

Chris

P.S. keep a spare battery.


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## /// (Jul 9, 2013)

wakeup said:


> I use a 0-25mm Moore & Wright micrometer



I have one of these too.... actually, had.

I dropped it from standing height onto the concrete floor of my workshop a few months ago. I almost cried.
It has been sitting unused ever since, just can't bring myself to the point of throwing it out.


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## Swifty (Jul 10, 2013)

/// said:


> I have one of these too.... actually, had.
> 
> I dropped it from standing height onto the concrete floor of my workshop a few months ago. I almost cried.
> It has been sitting unused ever since, just can't bring myself to the point of throwing it out.


Before you consider throwing it out, look it over carefully, it may not be as damaged as you think. The barrel and thimble can be adjusted easily.

Paul.


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## Hopper (Jul 10, 2013)

Paulsv said:


> The problem I have with telescoping guages is in measuring the guage after I have guaged the hole.  Hard to manipulate the guage and the mic, and get repeatable readings off the guage.  Any secret to this, or tips anyone can give me?



Use ball gauges rather than tele's on anything under about half an inch diameter. Much easier to deal with, better feel, ergo more accurate result. I never use a tele if I can get a ball gauge to do the job.


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## OrangeAlpine (Jul 10, 2013)

[QUOTE Anyway, no chance of misinterpreting a digital display.

Chris

P.S. keep a spare battery. [/QUOTE]
Unless you are dyslexic, which I am.  I am much more likely to misread a digital readout than a dial.

Bill


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## wakeup (Jul 10, 2013)

Probably start a firestorm here, but I don't mean to.  I must be seriously repressed because not only do I not like anything in the workshop with batteries, but I can't stand dial calipers.  I much prefer plain old fashioned direct reading type instruments, even with my aging eyes.  Since this is a hobby and time isn't an issue, if I'm in any doubt about a measurement it gets checked
I scored a soon to be scrapped Mitutoyo dial caliper from work.  It stays in my model (aeroplane) box for flying field measurements.
cheers
Bill


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## tornitore45 (Jul 11, 2013)

I do not like battery powered products either, not only in the shop but enywhere.  There are good reasons:

The Battery in consumer products are always grossly inadequate for economy, size and/or weight reasons.
Batteries have a finite number of full charge/discharge cycles. The life cycles increase as the discharge (capacity removed) gets shallower.
A big battery not only last longer between recharges but if used at moderate discharge it will give more usefil cycles.
The designers of consumer products are not concerned with life functionality, they give you a light, inexpensive product that out of the box appears to be adequate. The battery will soon peter out because is inadequte for the application.

Batteries suffer deeply if discharged below the minimum voltage, a good design would include a sensor that disconnects the battery when is discharged, but such a swich requires expensive MOSFET.  Overdiscahrge the battery twice and it toasted.

Some design have the electronic that can not work with a wide tolerance voltage and quit working before the battery is fully discharged, robbing the user of operating time. (Usually non rechargeable batteries).

I have designed industrial product with batteries and the battery was sized to give an initial operating time twice as long as the required, producing a shallow discharge and leaving margin for battery ageing. Provision were installed to cut out the battery when fully discharged.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 11, 2013)

> Probably start a firestorm here, but I don't mean to. I must be seriously repressed because not only do I not like anything in the workshop with batteries,



Not necessarily when I was in the air force shop we had and used digital calipers probably mitutoyo.   But for the mobility box we had dial calipers. the last thing you need to worry about in a remote location is a replacement battery. 

There are common mistakes made with replacement batteries and import calipers. 1 do not buy alkaline cells they do not last. LR44s are useless for this application but often supplied because they are cheap. and do not buy SR44s from wally world they are expensive . buy batteries from SR44.com in bulk and freeze them.If you buy 25 it will cost you$1.36 each buy 50 and the price drops to $1.18 each and yes this includes shipping. 
I have no affiliation with this site. IIRC a mom trying to take care of business and provide a quality product.  these are energizer brand  357 batteries not cheap knock offs. 
I do like some battery power tools but will leave that discussion for another time and thread as not to derail this one. 
Tin


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## /// (Jul 11, 2013)

Many of the Mitu mic's still have graduations on the barrel so if the battery fails, you are not stuffed. Not sure if there are any calipers that have this.


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## jack620 (Jul 12, 2013)

The battery in my Mitutoyo digital micrometer is still going after 2 years. I reckon that's pretty reasonable. I hear some cheap Chinese measuring tools will chew through the batteries.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 12, 2013)

yes the cheaper ones the batteries do not last as long I have several digital calipers in my shop and a couple digital indicators, and a digital mic. so I buy batteries in bulk. I buy batteries less than once a year.  



> Many of the Mitu mic's still have graduations on the barrel so if the battery fails, you are not stuffed. Not sure if there are any calipers that have this.


My Hf mic has this feature as well .
My grizzly import  caliper has 1mm and 1/10 in graduations  so you can estimate with out a battery. 
Tin


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## Sshire (Jul 12, 2013)

Not sure what Mitutoyo does with the design of their battery measuring instruments, but I agree with Jack. Both my Mit 6" caliper and quill caliper on the mill are 2 years+ on the original batteries. Same with the Starrett 0-1" micrometer.


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## pete (Jul 12, 2013)

Lets try this one more time and maybe it won't get lost again.

I've got to say I agree 100% with Tin's and others points. I have at least 8-9 pieces of Mitutoyo digital equipment and there's no doubt there's huge differences between it and the cheaper offshore equipment. With fresh SR-44's I usually get 3 + years, and over 5 years in one instance. Mitutoyo use there own design internal electrical circuit that does from what I've read totally shut the equipment off when it's not in use. With the cheaper equipment, only the display shuts off and the rest is still powered up. Those LR battery's are just good enough to keep you going till you find some SR's. I also have a not too bad offshore digital caliper I paid about $45.00 for. I usually get 6-8 months with a brand new SR-44 battery in that one. To state the obvious, all of this equipment isn't created equal.

My information may not be totally up to date, but the Long Island Dial Indicator Repair website had some information not too long ago about there thoughts and findings with todays avalible digital equipment. At my last reading of it Mitutoyo was rated as the best, and even Starrett digital equipment was rated as much poorer. Starrett may or may not have changed there equipment design since I've been on the website.

And it is digital, but I've got a set of Mitutoyo solar powered calipers. No battery changes at all for at least many, many years before you'd need to change out the built in internal battery on those. With at least Mitutoyo equipment, the multiple years between battery changes don't have any issues for me. And if your using a good DRO in your shop? You do have something with an internal battery back up so it can maintain it's memory. It's almost impossible today to go through life and not have at least something with a battery in it. If your reading this, your computer has one.

Pete


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 12, 2013)

24 hour Batteries also have energizer 357s at a better price .Less than $ 1.00 each  but do not know shipping costs. 

Tin


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## chrsbrbnk (Jul 12, 2013)

the trick to extending the battery life on the Mit micrometer  and some other digital's is to set the spindle lock  often just the vibration  on a tool box or work bench will keep turning it on


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## Ryan (Jul 13, 2013)

So an industrial tool shop nearby  sells mainly Starret  products so I finished up with 799A/150 digital calipers (the latest model), 444 0-25mm micrometer and  a set of Chinese telescopic bore gauges.  I noticed you only get a micrometer standard with 25-50mm  and larger. Is it sufficient to just close the mic.  and zero  it with the  supplied spanner?    I thought I can then use the mic.  to  periodically check the calipers.  I have one of those flat steel protractors  which is not terribly useful.  Anyone have the need for a vernier protractor? or a halfway decent combination set is fine? ( I already have anengineers square) 

anyone have experience with this Measumax brand that H&F sell (at somewhat expensive prices for presumably imports)? Mesumax's website seems to have a dubious lack of contact details or company information.


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## /// (Jul 13, 2013)

> anyone have experience with this Measumax brand that H&F sell (at somewhat expensive prices for presumably imports)? Mesumax's website seems to have a dubious lack of contact details or company information.


I haven't used any of the MX gear.
MeasumaX is a tradename belonging to H&F : http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/hare-and-forbes-pty-limited/trademarks/1108240/
The New Zealand version lists the directors as Stephen and Michael Hare (as in HARE & Forbes) : http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/2374340/detail


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## gus (Jul 13, 2013)

chrsbrbnk said:


> the trick to extending the battery life on the Mit micrometer  and some other digital's is to set the spindle lock  often just the vibration  on a tool box or work bench will keep turning it on



Hi Chrs,

Thanks for the tip. 
One tip for all. Buy Japanese batteries,they last n last. Stay away from Chinese batteries. And stay away from Chinese Digitals,they eat batteries.


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## wakeup (Jul 13, 2013)

I don't have DROs on my machines.  Yes I understand the value of DROs and its not the presence of a battery that stops me getting them.  
I'm also familiar with the PC battery.  Several times at work, and a couple of times here at home the PC battery has died and required a panic to replace it.
Measuremax is generic stuff.  Not particularly good, or bad.  I have a 5mm to 30mm inside micrometer which is ok, but feels a little course (like its full of sand, yes I have taken it to bits cleaned and carefully reassembled, it still feels like its full of sand)  The thread looks like it's been carved by hand with a stone axe, compared to the Moore and Wright.  That may be an overstatement.
So there is an element of you get what you pay for.
cheers
wakeup
ps Don't fully close your 0-25mm micrometers, leave a gap between the anvils, or (lightly) close on a clean piece of paper


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## Ryan (Jul 21, 2013)

This seems a bit stange. Dividers, inside and outside calipers are all readily available with bow spring. Jenny/odd leg  are usually only available in firm joint/slip joint. Why?    do I need odd leg, or can spring dividers and digital calipers do the same job?


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 21, 2013)

> do I need odd leg



ryan I have several sets of inside outside calipers in my box boxes. I do not use them much but are handy for transferring measurements fro a part to a measuring tool. 

dividers are used for layout. you can scribe a circle with them and divide a line or circle into even divisions.  Jenny/odd leg /hermaphrodite calipers I use they are handy to layout a shoulder line in a lathe or lay out a line parallel to a edge. 
I am talking the kind with one caliper tit and a point like a divider. 
Tin


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## Tinkerer58 (Jul 21, 2013)

As wakeup says regarding Chinese threads they are not capable of making a thread. I am in the bearing industry and we import bearings from China and Korea. At one stage we were bringing in adaptor and withdrawal sleeves and lock nuts, the threads were manufactured by kids using a cold chisel they were shockers. Then we thought we will get some samples from India, they were even worse. These days we have our own office in China and everything is made to our specifications, we have even decided that our manufacturers can only buy steel from 3 plants that we have audited. We are getting some very good quality product out of China but then again we have been doing this for over 35 years. We supply Holden with strut bearings, we also used to manufacture the wheel hubs units for the AU Ford Falcon and have been supplying Victa for 32 years. We now do a lot for the mining industry and my part is in sales and engineering both in bearings and other engineering components like large hubs and axle assemblies for both mining and agricultural uses. Over the last 8 years or so the quality from China has improved dramatically, but in saying that be very very careful who you buy from. A trap for young players in China is that a lot of people see these wonderful factories on their web sites and when you visit them the pics are from other factories and we have also had it where they are just export agents and bribe a factory to stick their sign over the top of the factory's sign to make it look like it is their factory. Only experience in buy and dealing in China will save you from tears and an empty wallet. Careful when going on to Alibaba or Made In China sites you will get burnt by junk and pretty scrap metal from backyard shed factories, and NO Warranty claims will be entertained, it's buy at your own risk.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 21, 2013)

IMHO  the  rule with Chinese import micrometers and the like buyer beware and try before you buy. 
I have heard good and bad experiences and had good and bad experiences . The quality can vary with the same item number from the same store. 
Tin


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## Cogsy (Jul 21, 2013)

Tinkerer58 said:


> \ I am in the bearing industry... we also used to manufacture the wheel hubs units for the AU Ford Falcon


 
Do you work for SKF by any chance, or maybe CBC?? Just curious as I've worked for both in the last 13 years.


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## Tinkerer58 (Jul 21, 2013)

I agree with Tin Falcon, quality control as we know it is generally based on if it looks OK that will be fine. The reason for variations of quality are numerous with Chinese product. They get paid by the amount of output so spending too much time making sure things are correct means lower output and less pay. The other main reason is that everyone copies products and the same machine or tool will have different model numbers but look the same, some built in good factories under the control of larger foreign companies who own the design. But the smaller companies will do work under contract to foreign companies who supply drawing and pay for tooling but they never own the tooling, if the volume is not large enough they than make or sell the designs with changes to smaller operators who build the cheap copies in backyard like conditions, and their backyard conditions make our home workshops look like state of the art operations.
So BE WARE VERY AWARE when spending your hard earned.

No Cogsy I work for General Bearing Co. SKF do Chinese bearings but they will never admit it, they have a partnership with a company in China called ZWZ and have had for many years, yet deny it veermently to the point they have tried to take legal action against other Brg Co's who have reported the fact to some of their clients.


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## gus (Jul 21, 2013)

Tinkerer58 said:


> As wakeup says regarding Chinese threads they are not capable of making a thread. I am in the bearing industry and we import bearings from China and Korea. At one stage we were bringing in adaptor and withdrawal sleeves and lock nuts, the threads were manufactured by kids using a cold chisel they were shockers. Then we thought we will get some samples from India, they were even worse. These days we have our own office in China and everything is made to our specifications, we have even decided that our manufacturers can only buy steel from 3 plants that we have audited. We are getting some very good quality product out of China but then again we have been doing this for over 35 years. We supply Holden with strut bearings, we also used to manufacture the wheel hubs units for the AU Ford Falcon and have been supplying Victa for 32 years. We now do a lot for the mining industry and my part is in sales and engineering both in bearings and other engineering components like large hubs and axle assemblies for both mining and agricultural uses. Over the last 8 years or so the quality from China has improved dramatically, but in saying that be very very careful who you buy from. A trap for young players in China is that a lot of people see these wonderful factories on their web sites and when you visit them the pics are from other factories and we have also had it where they are just export agents and bribe a factory to stick their sign over the top of the factory's sign to make it look like it is their factory. Only experience in buy and dealing in China will save you from tears and an empty wallet. Careful when going on to Alibaba or Made In China sites you will get burnt by junk and pretty scrap metal from backyard shed factories, and NO Warranty claims will be entertained, it's buy at your own risk.



Hi Tinkerer,
I am in the same boat. A Chinese Compressor Plant bought manufacturing license from us and part of the agreement,we will buy some compressors .

The first shipment made in 1990 was 50% scrapped due to poor casting finish. A bitter lesson taught and learnt with the plant G.M. removed and a new team came in.And there after we receive very good casting finish which was far superior to USA and Indian Plants. 

Ball bearings. We were buying from military plants and their products were of very high quality. Overnite quality went down the drain when these suppliers went private. Piston rings too. Aluminium pistons get seized.
Gudgeon Pins too tight or too loose. Finger valves made by the best in Hefei
break up. Chinese oil seals is garbage. We import from Taiwan and slept in peace.

Chinese ISO is only good as the banner hung all over the plant and in brochures. Gus got his Singapore Plant qualified for ISO 9002 in 1997 and kept it going for next four years with regular in-palnt audits and bi-annual audits by registrar.Go into any Chinese ISO plant and ask any employee to quote "Quality Statement",you get a blank reply. Ask to see the copy of the last regular in-plant quality audit report same reply. 

I got off a local China flight when I was told the passenger aircraft was local made.

Gus is now happily retired. Now no more China jobs.


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## gus (Jul 21, 2013)

Chinese Quality and ISO.

Spent 7 years of my retirement in China to help them make compressors. Initially quality was passable but when big and regular orders poured in. Quality suffered and my boss nearly went broke.
Took my advice and quality stabilised for next 4 years and bad quality came back staring at me.

June 2011, tendered my resignation by SMS. Hung up Hphone/email. July/August built and completed Tractor Engine. And since many more.


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## Tinkerer58 (Jul 21, 2013)

Yeah Gus in China if they have Quality Assurance Certificate check and make sure the company that issued it and audits them is European, American or International company, Chinese Certification is not worth the paper it's written on, I wouldn't even use it to hang on the toilet wall because the ink wouldn't be dry when you get there to inspect it. But a lot of this quality certification is a farce, it does not improve Quality it only documents what your doing and your proceedures and traceablity. If your manufacturing junk it documents your manufacturing junk and how to trace it through the system. Most of it is a farce for big certification companies to make money on audits and certification. The audits just make sure what is written in your quality documents is adhered to and followed and it doesn't matter if the practises are good or bad as long as you follow them then your audits will pass. This is of course not so with companies who are dedicated to building quality product, but smaller comapnies use it to look good and this is specially the case in China, and most will still try to use their expired certification because they didn't pass their audits. So check before you buy.


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## gus (Jul 22, 2013)

Tinkerer58 said:


> Yeah Gus in China if they have Quality Assurance Certificate check and make sure the company that issued it and audits them is European, American or International company, Chinese Certification is not worth the paper it's written on, I wouldn't even use it to hang on the toilet wall because the ink wouldn't be dry when you get there to inspect it. But a lot of this quality certification is a farce, it does not improve Quality it only documents what your doing and your proceedures and traceablity. If your manufacturing junk it documents your manufacturing junk and how to trace it through the system. Most of it is a farce for big certification companies to make money on audits and certification. The audits just make sure what is written in your quality documents is adhered to and followed and it doesn't matter if the practises are good or bad as long as you follow them then your audits will pass. This is of course not so with companies who are dedicated to building quality product, but smaller comapnies use it to look good and this is specially the case in China, and most will still try to use their expired certification because they didn't pass their audits. So check before you buy.



Hi Tinkerer,
My very own December 1997 ISO 9002 Registration Cert. was accredited by 2  other international bodies. And these bodies audit each other. My boss's factory no other accreditation and no regular internal audits. 
While doing quality audits on potential suppliers in Nanjing,China , I was proudly shown expired/unrenewed ISO Certs.which I pointed out to owner.
The good reason was the new Cert has yet to arrive!!!! Ha Ha Ha.
I also came across Micrometers with expired Calibration Stickers.Oh.We have new Mikes coming tomorrow.

Taiwan Suppliers,
I was invited to join a team doing internal audits. 

Singapore Suppliers.
Hang up no ISO banners but just an enlarged Quality Statement and valid ISO Cert. on the main office lobby wall.

Some of our current suppliers have no ISO and they were our best raw casting suppliers.We sort of grandfathered them on to our certified supplier list.


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