# Harbor Freight Lathes and Mills?



## AssassinXCV

Been looking at the $500-ish ones
How good are they?
Are they suitable for a newbie hobbyist?
Are they safe? i heard that if you have any big pieces that are at all unbalanced can be really dangerous.
Are they junk? I'm not using it for commercial use, so is it that bad? I know they're chinese made, and that throws up a red light for the product, but the pictures make it look like it's good enough in quality for light work.
I dont have a good budget, and $500 for each is pretty much the highest. (They do have coupons for 20% off anything you want).

Input from experienced users would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian


----------



## TroyO

I have a "Mini mill" from them, and I also have the 8x12 (Which is really an 8x14) lathe.

As to being "worth it", a lot depends on what you expect out of it. Both machines are capable of "making stuff" with a reasonable degree of accuracy. 

The mill will require a fair bit of fine tuning to get it up to snuff, unless you get pretty lucky. This means taking time to perfect a bunch of little things to make it fit together better by sanding, filing, scraping and just generally going over all the parts to make sure they are working correctly.

The lathe was a better value than the mill, IMHO. That 8x12 is NOT the same as the Mini-Lathe, which is another option. This one is bigger and heavier than the "Mini-lathe" version. It is also better built in general by all reports, and comparing it to the mini-mill, it sure seems that way to me as well. Everything on the 8x worked pretty much out of the box, and cleanup was a breeze. On the downside, there isn't all that much info out there about modifying and improving the 8x lathe as there is the mini-lathe, which has a big following and TONS of web-info on improving, repairing and setting it up. I don't have a Mini-lathe so I can't directly report on that one, but I assume it's build quality is on par with the Mini-Mill, which means expect to do some tweaking and lots of clean up.

Anyway... I like working on the machines themselves, and there is a TON you can do to improve them. I have added variable speed, a larger chuck and a quick change tool post to my lathe. The mill I have done tons of reinforcing and setup to. I have also added a belt drive, air spring.. etc.

I guess the point is... with some basic tweaking and improvements (We are talking sandpaper, files and a dial indicator) you can get some basic work done with them.

If you want to make them in to better machines you can do that too... usually with relatively small investments as you upgrade so at least you can spread out the expenses.

The 8x lathe... Ouch! They want $799 for that now? I got mine at $460 and used a 20% Coupon on it... total was under $400 including taxes. Wow... it went up a LOT.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-x-12-inch-precision-benchtop-lathe-44859.html

The "Mini mill"
http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html

The "Mini-Lathe"
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-x-12-inch-precision-mini-lathe-93799.html

Ohh, and a side note.... expect to spend some money on "tooling" as well... this means things like vises, collets, end mills, etc. You can get by and do a LOT with just some very basics tho... still expect that you can get started with a couple of hundred in tooling. Most folks here will tell you that you never really stop buying (or making) tooling, LOL.


----------



## AssassinXCV

Thanks for the reply. I understand that cutting bits will be up there in price too. I saw a 20 piece endmill kit for $79 (titanium nitride coated), but should i go for all carbide bits?

My dad picked up a Machinist's Workshop magazine recently, and it has coupons to get the Mill and the 7x10 lathe for $200 of each of them (seperate coupons), plus it has a 20% off coupon. In one of the recent popular mechanics magazines, it had another 20% off coupon...WOO!

For sure i'll get the rotary table for $65, might use one of the 20% off coupons for that, and the other for some endmills or lathe bits.

Considering the original chuck can only hold up to 1/2" shank bits, I wont get that $79 kit, and just buy individual bits from my local Fastenal.

At cnc-zone, someone asked if the Zen toolworks spindle is good for small desktop cncs, a reply stated that the jacobs chuck that it has is only good for drilling, not for the sideways stress that endmills have. Would it be a good investment to get a Collet chuck to upgrade this Harbor Freight mill, since it too has a jacobs chuck? or does it not matter?

The coupons for $200 off the mill and lathe and 20% off expire on the 10th of July, so i have some time to figure this out 

The coupons in the popular mechanics magazine expire in september, so i can get some more upgrades then, after i get some work done.

I'm also looking at the 7x12 lathe. it's on sale right now for $100 off, but at the back of the Machinist's Workshop magazine it has ads for getting an extender from LittleMachineshop that is 14" long for $150. By getting the 7x10 lathe, and getting that extender, i'm saving $50 PLUS getting an extra 14" in travel. Sure, that extender can cause issues with accuracy.

Thanks,

Ian

EDIT: Getting excited to be able to soon do accurate machining in METAL!!! All i've done so far is wood and plastic, and having non-centered bores in rods are depressing; but no more!!

I'm also worried that the 7x10 lathe won't be long enough to fit regular drill bits in the tail stock.


----------



## steamer

Hi Ian,

I would stick with HSS for now for lathe bits.  FAR cheaper, and very forgiving for someone who's learning the way forward. Most of the smaller lathes are lacking the stiffness to really use carbide to full extent.

HSS endmills are great for Aluminum and mild steel.  That covers most of what gets used in the hobby. If your going to get into machining alloy steels like 4150 or 4340...you may want to go carbide...HSS will wear quickly here.

But for the first few projects....stick with HSS.  You can grind it on the same tools you grind your woodworking tools with with great results....you know how important a sharp chisel is I'm sure.

Same thing on a lathe. 

Dave


----------



## Tin Falcon

The HF Mini is made in china by SEIG and imported by many importers Like little machine Shop.com , Grizzly , jet. Miro mark and others. 
It is said jet and grizzly pick the best machines from each lot and HF gets the leftovers. 
For years these machines were considered pre assembled kits Ie the fit and finish needed attention and some features were lacking. the better importers have corrected most of this,. 

How good are they? I think I covered that above. 
Are they suitable for a newbie hobbyist?A popular stater lathe may nedd some tuning and some simple mods. 
Are they safe? Any machine tool can cause injury . but no major safty concerns on this one. 
Are they junk? I think I covered that above as well. 
I dont have a good budget, and $500 for each is pretty much the highest. (They do have coupons for 20% off anything you want).
I started with a grizzly of the same ilk due to budget reasons. Still have it still use it. 
If I had to get a new one I would try to find a deal on one with a 12-14 center distance rather than 10. 10 gets tight real quick. 
Tin


----------



## dgjessing

I've got both, and I'm pretty darn happy with both of them. 

Go for the 7 x 14 lathe (instead of the 7 x 10).


----------



## dgjessing

AssassinXCV  said:
			
		

> For sure i'll get the rotary table for $65...



I recently got one of those 3" rotary tables, and I already wish I'd have gone with a bigger/better one. It's useful to a certain extent, but you run out of space on that little 3" dia. surface pretty quick, it has no precision bore in the center, there is no way to adjust the backlash, and the little brass screw that locks it really isn't up to the task.


----------



## Captain Jerry

AssassinXCV  said:
			
		

> I'm also looking at the 7x12 lathe. it's on sale right now for $100 off, but at the back of the Machinist's Workshop magazine it has ads for getting an extender from LittleMachineshop that is 14" long for $150. By getting the 7x10 lathe, and getting that extender, i'm saving $50 PLUS getting an extra 14" in travel. Sure, that extender can cause issues with accuracy.



Ian

The 14" extender is a replacement for the shorter bed, not an extension. You wind up with a 7x14.

Be slow to add expensive modifications in a search for improvement. Careful adjustment will take care of most of the problems.

Rigidity can be a problem at times. You can improve the situation by locking the movement that you are not using. If milling in the X direction, lock the Y. If facing on the lathe, lock the carriage. etc. A good vise for the lathe is a must.  I tried several and was never really satisfied until I got the 3" lockdown vise from LMS. Get a good heavy vise (with parallels) and throw the rotating base away.

Sharp tool eliminate most of the problems with cut finish and you can't get anything sharper than a properly finished High Speed Steel tool bit, ground and honed on a good arkansas stone. There are lots of good threads on this forum that will show how this is done. For my two cents worth, the edge is way more important than the angle.

The myth that HF tool are the dregs, left over after the other importers have had the pick of the litter is silly. Picture a big warehouse full of lathes with men dressed in Green or White overalls, carefully checking and choosing only the good ones. Then after they have finished and left, the doors open and a guy in red comes in and says "'OK, I'll take the rest".

My shop has lots of red painted tools and I have no complaints.

Jerry


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> My shop has lots of red painted tools and I have no complaints.
> 
> Jerry



Ditto. 



			
				TroyO  said:
			
		

> The mill will require a fair bit of fine tuning to get it up to snuff, unless you get pretty lucky. This means taking time to perfect a bunch of little things to make it fit together better by sanding, filing, scraping and just generally going over all the parts to make sure they are working correctly.



Hmm...guess I was lucky. Didn't have to do any of this to mine. No problem with column flex either. 

Instead of heavy modifications, I would just jump to the X3, probably cost you about the same by the time you're done. 

-Trout


----------



## AssassinXCV

I woke up this morning to a note from my dad, he says to pick the one that will be the most usefull right now. So i can only get one, a lathe or a mill. Gotta respect that since he's paying.

So I'm thinking that the mill will be more usefull, If i have a rotary table, it can do a lot of what a lathe can plus more.

I understand that you need both to make parts, but for now i can only get one.

What are your thoughts, which one should i get right now since i can only get one?

Thanks,

Ian


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Actually, most people get the lathe first since it is generally considered more useful. You can do some limited milling-like work on the lathe with the right attachments. Hard to do lathe-like work on the mill though.


----------



## cfellows

AssassinXCV  said:
			
		

> I woke up this morning to a note from my dad, he says to pick the one that will be the most usefull right now. So i can only get one, a lathe or a mill. Gotta respect that since he's paying.
> 
> So I'm thinking that the mill will be more usefull, If i have a rotary table, it can do a lot of what a lathe can plus more.
> 
> What are your thoughts, which one should i get right now since i can only get one?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian



That's a tough one. Conventional wisdom would say get the lathe first. With a milling attachment you can do some light duty milling. Keep in mind that the kind of turning you can do on a mill is pretty limited. 

If my main interest were making model engines, I would probably choose the lathe first. I have a 7x10 Harbor Freight lathe that I really like. Of course, I did swap out the bed for a 14" model and modified the carriage for tapered gibs. I made a few other changes, but those were mostly not absolutely required.

If you decide to get the mill instead, you'll need a milling vice or a clamping set or other method of holding work. You'll also need end mills, probably a fly cutter, drill chuck, maybe a boring head and boring bars and also maybe a collet set or other tool holding arbors.

Hope that helps...
Chuck

Chuck


----------



## Lakc

Start with the lathe. Milling may have a "sexy" reputation, but the true guts of machining is the lathe.


----------



## rake60

I'd go lathe first.

Even a mini lathe can do _some_ small mill work.

Rick


----------



## AssassinXCV

Hmm. it's so hard to choose.

How would someone go about making the valves for an elbow engine on a lathe? Dont you need a mill with a rotary table?


----------



## xo18thfa

As part of the lathe purchase, budget for necessary attachments. 4 jaw chuck is a must, live center for the tailstock, drill chuck for the tailstock, maybe a face plate. A quick change tool post really makes life easy.

Check out LittleMacineShop.com They have everything for the 7" lathe family.

I recommend HHS tooling too


----------



## steamer

I would definitely go for the lathe first.  The pistons for the elbow engine will be ever so much easier to make on a lathe than a mill...IMHO.

The Lathe is the King of all machine tools...and that quote wasn't from me 

With a 4 jaw and a face plate there the options are just about limitless...training and experience will create all kinds of set ups.

And yes I would make pistons for an elbow engine on a lathe....with a face plate mounted fixture

Dave


----------



## steamer

The valve for the rotary elbow engine could also be done in the lathe.

Mount a block of material on top of your compound.  Fly cut the side of it flat and drill and tap a hole for a post to swing the valve disk on.  Mount a handle to the embryonic valve disk and bolt it to the block, so that it still rotates, but has no shake.

Set some stops for the handle on the embryonic disk, so that it only rotates the amount needed for the slot, and mount and suitablely sized end mill in the chuck.  Take very light cuts, and you'll get there.

It woun't be hard...just tedious.

Meanwhile, while making the valve blank, crank out a few extra's on your LATHE just in case.... ;D

Making round disks on a mill ain't so easy....with out a rotary table or CNC.

I went thru a bunch of faceplate set ups for an engine on this thread...might be instructive as to what can be done with simple tooling on a lathe.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3951.0


Dave


----------



## Deanofid

Oh, get the lathe first! Many people, myself included, have made complete engines with just a lathe, using jigs that they also made using just that lathe. That doesn't happen much with just a milling machine. 
Imagine how you would turn a flywheel, cylinder, piston, bearings, and many other such things with only a milling machine. Things that are fairly easy to do on the lathe become difficult if a fellow only has a mill. Especially for a person just starting out. 

It's nice of your dad to let you choose, (and to buy one for you!). If you end up with just a mill, I can see you saying "I can't make that" a lot. With just a lathe, you may end up wondering how something can be done, but there will be someone here who can tell you. Many of us started with "just" a lathe.

Choose wisely.. : )

Dean


----------



## ShopShoe

AssassinXCV,

You are where I was a few years ago. I lusted after a high-quality lathe with generous swing and distance-between-centers. But money and space was an issue.

One day I stumbled accross 

http://www.mini-lathe.com 

There is good information on the 7x lathes and what you need there. (Not to slight all the good advice here.) I spent several months agonizing over what to do and finally bought the Cummins ('cause they had a special going that month.) with extras: faceplate, 4-jaw independent chuck, milling attachment, starter toolbit set. It came supplied with Steady and Follow rests, Tailstock drill chuck, and the usual set of tools.

Within two months I spent about $200 more at LMS and ENCO for tooling, measuring tools, and more misc.

It did not take too long for me to realize that the smaller machine was better for learning and a couple of newbie errors that caused crashes could have been much more serious on the big machine I coveted for 20 years. LMS provided repair parts when necessary.

Looking back, I can say that the 7x is a good place to start and I am really doing now rather than dreaming. With the help of the members here I am tuning up the 7x and improving my skills. I would say that the learning curve cost at least as much money as the lathe in tooling and misc, without talking about upgrades to chucks and repair parts. I also spent some additional money buying known materials to turn: Brass, Aluminum, Steel, Stainless, and some plastics. I tried "mystery metal" from my junk box and the hardware store and only found out as I newbie I did not need more unknowns.

I can agree that getting a lathe first is best: You will find many other things to make with it once you have it. After you get used to how different material cuts you will have more ideas of what you want in a mill.

I also say start with HSS toolbits. If you learn to grind them you will understand what is happening when they are cutting.

Good Luck,

--ShopShoe


----------



## cfellows

Let me add a few more comments. I have a Logan 11" lathe that is a really good lathe, but I also love my Harbor Freight 7x10.  I made my own quick change tool post system and a tangential tool holder that uses 1/4" HSS bits. This tool will really cut the metal and it's easy to keep sharp. I also modified the the 3 Jaw chuck so I could adjust it to take out any run out. The smaller lathe is now my goto lathe where I want accuracy and repeatability.

Take a look at this thread and you can see some of the mods I made to my lathe.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9016.0

With a little modification, you can have a lathe that you'll really appreciate.

Chuck


----------



## AssassinXCV

Thanks everyone, you've really convinced me on getting the lathe first.

I now understand how to make the valves on a lathe. pretty much, its mill that has been rotated 90 degrees about the y-axis.

Now i'm just worried about the travel size of the lathe. i've read that the 7x10 is really a 7x8 and that harbor freight had some different ruler when measuring the distance, and that the 7x12 is really a 7x14, weird. Is the 7x10 long enough to fit a drill chuck and regular HSS drill bits in, still keeping enough room for a piece of bar stock? doesn't seem possible on that size travel.

Chuck, would it be possible for you to supply some more measurements of the machine? Stores like stretching the true on measurements. Measurements such as the distance between the chuck and tailstock, and what size chuck it comes with and what size 4jaw chuck i should get ...etc.

I have to drive down to Bellingham, Washington State, since they dont have Harbor Freights in Canada, but it's only a 30min drive. A Grizzly store is only 10 blocks away from Harbor Freight, so i can get more chucks there too.

Thanks,

Ian

EDIT: Would love to be able to make one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC1_RxI1b9c


----------



## tylernt

I love the sound of that 5-cyl radial!

I've drilled a 1/2" hole on my 7x10 and you're right, it is a real tight fit with a standard "jobber" length drill bit. The piece you're drilling definitely can't be very long. And to even get that far, I had to chop off the back end of my drill chuck's Morse taper (though that is a pretty standard modification for 7x lathe owners).

If you ever need to drill large holes in longer stock, you're going to need either a "screw machine" length (shorter) drill bit, or cut down one of your drill bits to make it stubby. You can start the hole with one of these, and if you need to go deeper, slide the tailstock off the end of the ways and chuck up your standard drill -- then feed it into the partially drilled hole as you put the tailstock back on the ways.

Also, that 7x10 being a 7x8 can be improved a bit. Removing the threading dial (which is not needed on an electrically reversible lathe like the 7x) gets you at least half an inch (doesn't help for drilling, but still useful for cutting). Using a faceplate, collet, or other work holding device instead of a chuck gives you more space. Notching the corner of the motor guard lets you get the carriage closer to the headstock. Turning the compound parallel with the ways gives you another few inches to play with. Being creative with work support can let you deal with longer pieces too, for example by using a steady rest you can dispense with the live center and gain several more inches of capacity. Really it's hard to imagine what model engine part you would need to turn that just wouldn't fit on a 7x10... some head-scratching may be required though.

I seem to recall that Canada's Princess Auto is the equivalent of HF, so they might stock the 7x lathe?


----------



## AssassinXCV

tylernt  said:
			
		

> I seem to recall that Canada's Princess Auto is the equivalent of HF, so they might stock the 7x lathe?



I heard that too, but that store is more of an Overstock-found-here store on some things, i'll check their website again. Also, the nearist one is 40min away (in cloverdale) so i might aswell just go to HF since the Canadian dollar is up .

EDIT: They do have the 7x12 there for $599 CDN, same as the HF on sale. Interesting.

On their website it says they're sold out, just like how HF is on backorder... nearist store might have one, but i doubt it.


----------



## steamer

Ah for you 7X10 owners....a tip for drills

When you buy your drills , get the screw machine drills instead of the jobbers

They are much shorter.  That will give you more room.

Dave


----------



## Tin Falcon

> When you buy your drills , get the screw machine drills instead of the jobbers
> 
> They are much shorter.  That will give you more room.


Something I have thought of often but have not done yet helps with limited Z travel indeed on the mini mill as well as the mini lathe.
Tin


----------



## steamer

My home brew mill ( My first) was short in that department...







That mill is gone, but I still have my screw machine drills which now come in handy on my Aciera F1....

Dave


----------



## cfellows

Hey, steamer, that's a pretty nifty mill. What's the column assembly made from?

Chuck


----------



## cfellows

I no longer have the original bed. I swapped it out for the 14" bed. As folks have said, the 7 x 10 doesn't leave a lot of room for drilling and reaming with the tailstock.

Chuck


----------



## steamer

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Hey, steamer, that's a pretty nifty mill. What's the column assembly made from?
> 
> Chuck



The column was 4" steel tube with a 4, 5/8" threaded rods with a bunch of nuts on the rods at even intervals.

The tube was welded to a 1" thick base plate.  I then ( in my apartment kitchen at the time) wiped the inside of the tube with axle grease and then filled the tube with hydraulic cement and tensioned the rods prior to the cement setting.  This combined with the think layer (1/32 thick approximately) of grease and the pretensioned rods, it was stiffer than a )(*)(*#$*(*&@(8....you get the picture  The grease was to prevent rust and to add to the vibration attenuation.



The spindle was from a discarded Sherline lathe (brass bed vintage) which I still have. It had an Atlas cross slide as shown.

The vertical slide came from a Warner Swazey #5 turret lathe that had a crash on the boring bar attachment and broke the foot off. I had the Trade School machine it to my sketch.

I mounted the slide on a plate that was held down with 3/8 bolts with nuts set into the concrete. The plate was set up on 3 screws and trammed in. Then the gap between the plate and the column was filled with Marine-Tex structural adhesive ( Poor mans moglice). 

The frame weighed about 100 pounds all by itself.

It NEVER chattered.....EVER!....it just ran out of power

Made a bunch of parts for my launch engine on that mill....then I stepped up to a mill/drill....which was junk and I sent back....then I got a Burke #4...which was way too small...then I got Norm and the Aciera...which is where I am today.

Dave


----------



## gmac

Ian;
Don't forget BusyBee, I'd like to have the 10x18 lathe, second choice the 9x20.

http://www.busybeetools.com/categories/Metalworking/Metal-Lathes/

There's an outlet in Vancouver. Wish I was 30 minutes from Bellingham (take a look at the Grizzly products). I'm in Penticton. Just a comment - if you watch CraigsList for Vancouver there are regular ads for used lathes - I've picked up a used (barely) Taig Lathe and X2 mill for forty cents on the dollar - with lots of extra tooling and mods thrown in.

I agree with the previous comments - lathe first, and I'm still spending money on tooling!

Cheers
Garry


----------



## AssassinXCV

gmac  said:
			
		

> Ian;
> Don't forget BusyBee, I'd like to have the 10x18 lathe, second choice the 9x20.
> 
> http://www.busybeetools.com/categories/Metalworking/Metal-Lathes/
> 
> There's an outlet in Vancouver. Wish I was 30 minutes from Bellingham (take a look at the Grizzly products). I'm in Penticton. Just a comment - if you watch CraigsList for Vancouver there are regular ads for used lathes - I've picked up a used (barely) Taig Lathe and X2 mill for forty cents on the dollar - with lots of extra tooling and mods thrown in.
> 
> I agree with the previous comments - lathe first, and I'm still spending money on tooling!
> 
> Cheers
> Garry



EH, penticton, we own a condo there and we used to visit atleast once a year in the summer; good times, good times.

I've been checking out craigslist, and stopped being picky for things only in Richmond, but i still only get search results of really old, dusty, rusty machines that to me, dont look up to regulation. I may be wrong, and i mostlikely will be, that those machines are worn out? And the prices are insane for the state that they're in, askin $2000+ for an old machine that you could get new at HF for $2500.

Here's some searches i got:

Searched Taig, and got : http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/tls/2378769966.html ,not a far drive, 2hrs i think to get to Coquitlam

Searched Metal Lathe: http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rds/tls/2421101656.html 

 :fan:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I checked out busybee website when i saw link in another thread, when people were asking for lathes in canada.... their prices are kinda up there, but they could be better quality than the HF Central Machinery chinese... hmm.

Still can't beat the $200 off coupon for both the 7x10 lathe and Mill at HF.


----------



## phlegmatic

I disagree, lathe first is not the obvious choice! It depends on what u want to do; a gunsmith uses the mill far more than the lathe for example, and small things can be turned on a mill. A small lathe is a pig to do any milling in also. Only experience can make a good choice, a Catch 22...

Perhaps a mill and a much cheaper (smaller?) lathe for convenience?


----------



## Tin Falcon

My first machine tool was a 7 x 10 mini lathe. I started making pen pencil sets. I soon found I needed a band saw to cut stock and a sander to true up the ends of the blanks. The band saw is a humble grizzly geared down bench model. It will cut through 2" aluminum. 
the sander is a grizzly Z series 9" disk and a 6 x 48 belt. may be overkill for P&P sets but it serves me well. I use it regularly. I then got a x-2 mill. and later other tools. 
You will find there are lathe guys and mill guys some guys would rather use the lathe if thy can others a mill. 
I am finally pushing forward making some small Quick change tool posts. similar to the A2Zcnc ones. the dovetails were done on my shaper a while back. Yesterday I cut the blocks to length on the band saw. then cleaned up squared up on the lathe with a 4 jaw. I could have used the x-2 and a fly cutter would have worked fine . An my shaper would have done a fine job as well. but chose the lathe . Personal preference. When the shop is yous and well equipped you can choose what tool to use for certain things. sometimes the choice is open other times the choice is obvious and limited. 
You need to find your path. But having someone who has walked a similar path before can be a good guide. The folks here are eager to help and give good advise. but ultimately you dime your decision. 
Tin


----------



## bearcar1

AXCV, I've only spot read this thread that you started and perceive just a bit of frustration building up here. The old adage "you get what you pay for" becomes paramount in this situation. However, my best advice for you is to be extremely patient in your search. You may have to look over or consider a hundred different machines/offers/packages before you will find what you are looking for in terms of price and condition, but, in the end, if you do not hold to your standards and jump the gun, your purchase will more than likely come back to haunt you in the end. It almost becomes a second obsession (first : ). look for machines at estate sales, garage sales, newspaper ads, (personally I would avoid CL but that is just me) even school closings. Contact companies that deal in used machines. They have contacts all over and know better where to look, and if they know that you are serious about buying, can probably locate machines that the guy on the street would have no chance of finding, but you have to stay committed or they will most likely not waste their time looking for such a small machine. They will however be able to possibly find a machine that is a bit larger (a good thing sometimes) in your price range. Like Tin said, it is YOUR decision to make. New is not always better and patience IS a valuable virtue. Tooling availability would be a major player. Say you finally purchase your dream machine for a song and dance, life is good. However you soon find that the spindle is some oddball and tooling is no longer made or is not common and winds up costing the big bucks and is special order. Do your homework and become familiar with what to look for in terms of a machines weaknesses and above all, remain patient, there are a lot of machines out there, you just have to wait until the right one comes along. Best of luck in your quest.

BC1
Jim


----------



## gmac

+1 on Jim's comment about patience, that's what I did to get the better used equipment. I deliberately avoided the old machinery because frankly I wouldn't be able to test/inspect it properly to identify a pig in a poke. You have to watch Craigs list daily in Vancouver since the good stuff moves fast - I missed an almost new 10x18 BusyBee lathe for $500. Don't get in a rush. Also let people around you know you are looking, they'll start watching - surprising what pops up in general conversation!!!
Garry


----------



## Tin Falcon

There seems to be some debate here about new imports vs old Iron. I will say both are good both can need attention . both have idiosyncrasies both can bring joy both frustration. I like the 7x it was my first lathe it is portable I have used it to machine in the back of a station wagon as a portable shop. I have had it for 10 plus years I still use it. I have 5 lathes a 4 1/2 foot bed south bend 9" the 7x 
a machinex 5 I turned to CNC and Two old craftman dunlaps. If I was forced to have just one it would be the South bend hands down. the dunlaps I am making tooling for slowly . the cnc is still in development but I hope close to making parts. 
Tin


----------



## xo18thfa

steamer  said:
			
		

> The column was 4" steel tube with a 4, 5/8" threaded rods with a bunch of nuts on the rods at even intervals.
> 
> The tube was welded to a 1" thick base plate. I then ( in my apartment kitchen at the time) wiped the inside of the tube with axle grease and then filled the tube with hydraulic cement and tensioned the rods prior to the cement setting. This combined with the think layer (1/32 thick approximately) of grease and the pretensioned rods, it was stiffer than a )(*)(*#$*(*&@(8....you get the picture The grease was to prevent rust and to add to the vibration attenuation.
> 
> 
> 
> The spindle was from a discarded Sherline lathe (brass bed vintage) which I still have. It had an Atlas cross slide as shown.
> 
> The vertical slide came from a Warner Swazey #5 turret lathe that had a crash on the boring bar attachment and broke the foot off. I had the Trade School machine it to my sketch.
> 
> I mounted the slide on a plate that was held down with 3/8 bolts with nuts set into the concrete. The plate was set up on 3 screws and trammed in. Then the gap between the plate and the column was filled with Marine-Tex structural adhesive ( Poor mans moglice).
> 
> The frame weighed about 100 pounds all by itself.
> 
> It NEVER chattered.....EVER!....it just ran out of power
> 
> Made a bunch of parts for my launch engine on that mill....then I stepped up to a mill/drill....which was junk and I sent back....then I got a Burke #4...which was way too small...then I got Norm and the Aciera...which is where I am today.
> 
> Dave



Hi Dave, yes that is a nifty machine. When you welded the column to the base, did you have any warping problems?

Thanks, Bob


----------



## steamer

No....the base was too heavy to be bothered

Dave


----------



## AssassinXCV

I found this one, looks like it's in better shape than some other ones:

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/tls/2408521410.html


----------



## Tin Falcon

could be a good deal . Sooth bends are good lathes I have seen heard of prices from free to over a $1000 .
Tin


----------



## cfellows

That is a good price but a couple of things should be checked. It's not unusual for older lathes to have a lot of wear on the ways next to the headstock where most of the turning is done. Also, I believe the Southbend lathes have poured babbitt bearings in the headstock and if there is too much wear, the spindle may not be parallel with the ways. Both of these issues are fairly expensive to correct.

Chuck


----------



## AssassinXCV

Finally got out to harbor freight and picked up a 7x10 lathe ;D

everything is great! even though i spent hours cleaning off all the red oil. thanks to who ever mentioned using WD-40 somewhere on this forum, it worked wonders.

When i was there i also bought: 6 piece lathe tool set (the one with arc shaped bits). some plain bits. and a pack of metric center drills (i use imperial measurements, but these will be fine for making an accurate pilot hole.

They didn't have stock of any tail stock drill chucks.... a shame. Also, they didnt have stock of the 30piece or 20 piece lathe tool kit (contains a knurler, cut off bar, calipers....) also a shame :-\

I wish i had known that Grizzly isnt open on weekends, i would have picked up the equivalent kits that they supply. Also would have been able to get the drill chuck tailstock.

I'll go to my local scrap metal yard tomorrow and pick up some metal rod. I'll try making the pistons for the V6 engine i drew up.

First cuts were taking the head off a nail. Then i found some garbage PVC pipe, faced it, and then turned down one end so that it looked something like this:

______________
|.....................|____
|.............................|
|.............................|
|.....................|

Time to have some fun! :big:


----------



## Tin Falcon

my first working lathe was a 7x still have it and use it . have fun.
Tin


----------



## AssassinXCV

UH OH!!!

I went back again to turn my flywheel for my elbow engine, but the chuck wont turn!

i took off the panel on the left end, and when i turn on the lathe, the motor turns, and the belt moves, and the other gear where the belt turns turns, but non of the gears in the front turn! 

Help please!


----------



## steamer

Check to see if you have it stuck between high and low gear.

Additionally, did you change gears while the spindle was on?

Dave


----------



## tylernt

While rotating the chuck by hand, move the High/Low lever one way or the other. It will only "engage" at certain points of the spindle's revolution. So always turn the chuck by hand when shifting until you feel it lock in.


----------



## AssassinXCV

That's all i had to do, just have to rotate it by hand and the lever moved over alot more.
And i was about to completely take the whole lathe apart
It works! Thanks, can't believe i didnt think of that.


----------



## AssassinXCV

First non destructive use of the lathe 

I ground down the head of a countersink 1/4" x 1x1/2" robertson machine screw into a Robertson Cap Screw.  Okay, it may be destructive, but it's still constructive use of the lathe.











Sorry for bad photos... Camera doesn't take good closeups.


----------



## tylernt

AssassinXCV  said:
			
		

> I ground down the head of a countersink 1/4" x 1x1/2" robertson machine screw into a Robertson Cap Screw.


You have an abrasive toolpost grinder already? Or maybe you just meant _turned down_ the head with a tool bit. 

That's not a bad idea for making SHCS, though. I've always been afraid to cut down store-bought fasteners for fear they're hardened and will make a mess of my cutting tool.


----------



## AssassinXCV

tylernt  said:
			
		

> I've always been afraid to cut down store-bought fasteners for fear they're hardened and will make a mess of my cutting tool.



Yes, i noticed that some 1/4" aluminum rod that i had (originally from Canadian Tire) and tried to lathe was really difficult. They must have been hardened rods.


----------



## tylernt

AssassinXCV  said:
			
		

> Yes, i noticed that some 1/4" aluminum rod that i had (originally from Canadian Tire) and tried to lathe was really difficult. They must have been hardened rods.


If you're using brazed carbide tool bits, they have zero rake and don't do great on aluminum, especially at low RPM. A nice sharp, raked HSS bit should work a bit better.


----------



## AssassinXCV

I noticed that using some WD-40 as cutting fluid helped majorly. HF didnt have any instock when i was there, and sadly Grizzly is closed on weekends and long weekends.


----------



## steamer

AssassinXCV 

Tylernt has the right answer.  You need some top rake, and ditch the carbide on a mini lathe cutting aluminum.  Keep the material overhang from the chuck as small as possible while "TURNING" material off.

WD-40 does made a good cutting lubricant.  A decent kerosene product is all it is....but it is convienent.

I believe there is a section on cutting tools here

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9413.0

If you don't find it, let me know and I can send you some information.

Dave


----------



## AssassinXCV

What about Stainless steel?? should I use carbide for that?

When I was at harbor freight, all they had were carbide tipped bits. I bought a two 5/16" sets for $5 each. I bought a set of the 1/2" as well; I just found out they're above the center line, but I can still use them for when turning bigger sizes such as flywheels.

I'll try to find some HSS blank bits, and sharpen them on my table top grinder.


----------



## tylernt

I ended up getting my HSS tool bits online. You can get them from littlemachineshop.com and use-enco.com. 5/16th is the "correct" size, but typically still require a bit of shimming to bring them up to centerline after grinding an edge on them. That's why quick change tool posts (QCTP) are so popular as they allow height adjustment with a knob instead of messing with shims. A bunch of QCTP holders can get spendy though, which is why I've stuck with the stock 4-way turret tool holder. In fact, I bought two spares for theoretical total of 12 tools on tap with the ability to change almost as fast as a QCTP system.

I don't have any experience with stainless yet. I bought some stock but haven't tried to turn it yet. I plan to use HSS, as from what I have read, HSS will do the job. What kind of stainless do you plan to cut? I got some 303 and 416 which are the "free machining" grades. You probably don't want to start off with something like 304 or 316... those can be a pain even for real machinists on full-size lathes.


----------



## AssassinXCV

In my metal thread, gmac said that 303 Stainless Steel is the usual for Valves, and he said C1144 Stressproof steel for the crankshaft and camshafts. In other posts someone said that they like 1144 the best since it's easy to machine and it's strong too.

I'm planning on making that V6 engine in the "Questions sub-forum", i've revised the design to make it more compact, relative volume of space that the whole engine would take up: 3"W x 5 1/4"L x 4"H. being that size, maybe the type of metal isn't much of a concern, and i could get away with making cam and crank shafts out of the 6061 aluminum.

I got one of these packs:





Looking around for stores near by that sell HSS blanks for hobbyists.


----------



## gmac

The camshaft made of 6061 would wear out in no time - the contact loads would wear out the cam lobes rapidly. Either drill rod or C1144 Stressproof. The crankshaft made of 6061 would have the same problem with contact loads as the cam - this time due to the connecting rod loads; but also the torsional stresses and bending loads would wreck havoc on such a crankshaft. So either a built up crank of drill rod for the "shaft" portions of the crankshaft and steel of some description for the "disc" portions; or a one piece crank machined out of C1144 would give better results. I highly recommend you check some of the build threads on here to see how others have constructed cranks and cams - they're the pro's not me :big:.

As for HSS toolbit blanks try Busy Bee (store in Vanc area) these are made in China;

http://www.busybeetools.com/categories/Cutting-Tools/Cutting-Tools/Tool-Bits-HSS/

KBC Tools can supply USA made bits (as well as the Chinese) and can send you a three inch thick catalog - also Vanc store;

http://www.kbctools.com/can/main.cfm

As for stainless steel valves, since they are small, save time and go buy a handfull of SS screws and machine those like you've already done 

Keep at it.
Cheers Garry


----------



## AssassinXCV

I knew about Busybee, but not KBC 

It's half the distance away compared to KMSTools that i found earlier tonight.

I'm in need of a parting tool too, so i'll pick one of them up

Thanks.


----------



## machineman8625

Me and my father have purchased several items from Harbor Freight. Their goods are the worst of the worst and almost unusable. Save up your money and buy somewhere else. Check out the lathes and mills at BILLS TOOL CRIB. I bought a 13x40 geared head gap lathe that hold .0001 tolerances. Unbelievable. Best price in the world also. Larry


----------



## pete

You might want to keep in mind that KBC Canaduh has very high prices. Just check their U.S. prices compared to the Canadian price. Both divisions use the exact same pictures and part numbers. I order almost everything now from MSC or Enco. There is no duty on machine tools or accessories. It's even better now with the high Canuck buck. All you pay is shipping and GST/HST? Make a point of having anything of resonable size and weight shipped thru the U.S. postal service. UPS ect just love to burn us on high brokerage fees.

Pete


----------



## Cliff

I have read your posting and thought I would chime in and give my two cents worth. I have a 7X12 HF lathe and have not had any trouble with it. You have to remember that they are not a big heavy duty lathe just use a little TLC and it should give you years of good job. I been a machinist for forty years and ran some real winners. I couldn't help mentioning WD-40 that stuff will gum up the works after a while it is worthless. I have rambled long enough congratulations on your new Lathe. Cliff


----------

