# Is there any plans for a 5" gauge battery loco?



## JCSteam (May 31, 2017)

I have googled for the past few days for plans, but all I seem to find is kits or complete locos, I was wondering if there is plans for any steam outline battery locos? I don't have a fortune to spend, and want to build it myself if possible, but I may be looking at upscaling 16mm plans from Dave Watkins. Is there any plans of a steam outline battery loco out there? Or is it a case of most want a steam engine or a diesel so they don't bother??? I like narrow gauge so this would be preferred, but a small 0-4-0 is what I'm after

Thanks in advance


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## fcheslop (Jun 1, 2017)

Try Blackgates
These supply laser cut parts http://www.modelengineerslaser.co.uk/locos.asp?locotype=3


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## JCSteam (Jun 1, 2017)

Thanks Frazer, that could speed up a build, and it'ld be more accurate too than my efforts. Wish I still worked at the place with the laser cutter I could have had them done at work from the scrap pieces. 

How are the motors mounted on the battery locos? I know they are fitted between the wheels within two brackets but how do the brackets connect to the chassis??


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## fcheslop (Jun 2, 2017)

Hi Jon, sorry Iv no idea how they fit the motors as Iv only played with small steam ones
You may find some info here http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/groupederubriqu15/index.html
 I have not checked out the loco drawings
Still playing with the MB22 just the Scotch crank to finish and the bypass valve for the pump then back to the Ryder
Good luck
cheers


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## goldstar31 (Jun 2, 2017)

Jon(and Frazer)

In another life, I pulled an experimental Gauge 1 battery thing. It had been made by a local doctor who was also a Bachelor of Science in Engineering and a relative of James Watt.  Ahem, yes!!!!

Several things emerge and one is that I have serious doubts that one can be made out of a Todd Sloan pre-War Myford in 5" and the second is the necessary gearing to reduce the motor revs to transmit much, much slower revolutions  on a 5" gauge track and the 3rd is whatever transpires, there is the question of a big battery or perhaps two- and someone has to sit on the tender.

Now 'Ned' Westbury had the 1831 if my aged memory counts for anything. 'Ned' drove it with  50cc engine and this wasn't 5" gauge but a three and a half.

So what will pull a bloke around a track and all that jazz?  Me, I'm playing somewhat unsuccessfully  but it is a 190cc petrol engine. to tug me around the lawns 

Have a re-think, please

Norm


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## fcheslop (Jun 2, 2017)

Hi Norm, the link for the laser cutting company is for a 5 inch 1831 elect or IC powered loco 
I know since I did my electrical training motors and batteries have moved on a wee bit
Sorry I dont know much about toy trains they leave me cold and I would rather have teeth pulled but each to there own and I had thought Jon was looking at this for a future project or at least a long term one.
Iv an old megga here for that lawn mower not as nice as a Brooklands can. You need to get a Rudge Multi or a DBD32 into her
cheers


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## goldstar31 (Jun 2, 2017)

The mower:fan: Actually there is nothing wrong with the 190cc  Briggs and Stratton. The fault was traced to an incorrectly secured Bowden cable which had it pvc covering melted and got corrosion in  so that once I attempted to engage the cutting system - nothing would move and the force ripped the dog leg nipple out of the lever assembly.

Of course, the thing is under warranty but nothing is happening in this direction and because it is an Italian machine, the cable no longer seems to be imported.

Basically, the beast is too heavy to upend to access the 'other end' and I'm waiting patiently to see whether I have to pursue Sales of goods Acts and all this stuff which I used to do - some 32 years ago. 

I saw the error of my ways- and retirement is now becoming a bit stressful 

N


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## Barnbikes (Jun 2, 2017)

Growing up I had a neighbor who built a 6" train. The engine was a dummy and the coal car that he sat on was the drive unit. I believe it was a cordless drill that was hooked up to a deep cell boat battery that was the drive source. As long as he took it slow everything worked great - if he went faster the pushed locomotive would jump the track and bind.

He is long dead now and I have no idea where any of his toys went. I miss watching him do his wood carving.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 3, 2017)

I recall the local children playing with electric scooters near my villa in Menorca. I see that something similar is now being sold for UK children.

Probably expensive having to scrap most of the stuff to get it on the rails.


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## Kerrin Galvin (Jun 3, 2017)

Hi Jc,
 I built a battery powered 5" Toby Tram about 15 years ago. It's 24 volt with a wheelchair motor in it, I have it geared so flat out it runs at 12 -13 km/hr. It will happily pull me plus one other adult and a kid or two no problem. My trolley is only 1200 long so everybody has to get along!
I can play for 4 to 6 hours depending on the load & track it's been used on. 

Cheers Kerrin


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## JCSteam (Jun 3, 2017)

Thanks Kerrin and barnbikes, 

I have heard of using a drill motor, though I think this again would have to be mounted either via the axle, and a 100tooth spur gear, or mounted via a crank axle, maybe a grinder motor, and use the bevel gears to turn the drive 90°, combined with some reduction gears, or sprocket and bike chain? I know I could buy the maxitrak chassis for around £600, but that's a bit much!

Kerrin how thick are the chassis frames and the cross members, im thinking they may need to be around 3mm with a centre stay and one front and back for the buffer beam, made from 8mm mild steel???

Mobility motors are another option heavy duty and built to run 24V


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## Kerrin Galvin (Jun 3, 2017)

Hi JC,
 The frames are 3 mm. Basically a rectangular box. I deveated from the plans as the original was 12volt with a car air con motor, if memory serves, hung between the frames. 
I have mounted the motor vertically in the middle so I could get a battery each side....there was just enough room, I used 2 lengths of 50x50 angle across the frames,  & built up from there to mount the motor & gear box. The gear box is a 4" angle grinder head. The motor runs 5000 rpm, the gear box has 4 to 1 reduction, & allows you to get a 90 degree change in a very compact area, from there a 2 to 1 to the axel, then a another chain to the other. The drive between the axel is such that the bottom length of chain is tight when running forward, helps lift it up to give you a bit more clearance if running on ground level track.
I have some photos somewhere of him in bits if you are interested. On a cost bases the batteries I used are marine, I figured that they take a pounding so with the fiberglass matts in them would help, & deep cycle were just that much more expensive again! The controller, I upgraded it last year, should have done so years ago, to a 4QD DNO 5. I recommend that you buy a decent controller from the outset, the original I used worked fine but didn't have regen braking, & as I had quite a few young people driving, & plenty of adults, having to explain that every time & them forgetting could lead to issues!

Cheers Kerrin


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## JCSteam (Jun 3, 2017)

Yes if be interested in seeing some pics, especially the drive chain setup. As for chain slack, could a roller bearing be used to guide the chain and stop it from sagging below the frame bottom half, made from acetate or something similar, fitted with ball bearings, it shouldn't effect the drive train with too much friction.


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## Cogsy (Jun 4, 2017)

JCSteam said:


> As for chain slack, could a roller bearing be used to guide the chain and stop it from sagging below the frame bottom half, made from acetate or something similar, fitted with ball bearings, it shouldn't effect the drive train with too much friction.


 
In the past I used skateboard wheels for just this purpose. Just machine a groove around the OD for the chain to run in and mount them up using their existing bearings on an 8mm shaft. Simple and very cheap.


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## Kerrin Galvin (Jun 4, 2017)

Hi JC,
 Heres a couple of photos of Toby. In the general view ou can see the "smoke" for the smoke generator coming out the funnel, works ptretty good inside & ok outside when stationary provided the wind isnt blowing too strong!

Cogsy,
A friend built an electric about the same time & tried a simallar idea, but i think it was with a sliding pad for the chain, he cant of had it right as he reckoned it used up to much power, the wheel idea would probable work better but only having 11 tooth sprockets these not a lot of room!

Heres the info on the motor & drive chain
The motor I have is a 24 volt, 7.2 amp,5000 rpm X wheel chair motor, as such required gearing down just a bit! I used angle grinder heads to give a 90 degree drive change. I had one in the scrap box this gave a 4:1 reduction, this was further reduced by a 2:1 chain drive to the rear axle, giving a total of 8:1, & with the wheel diameter of 90 mm (I think!) gives a max top speed calculated of 12.5 kph & an actual with my son only on board at a track with speed checker of 12.88 kph. See Underside view

Cheers Kerrin


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## perko7 (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi JC,

Have a think about how much power you actually need for the job you have in mind.  If you can push your loaded train at a suitable speed by yourself then the power used will be somewhere in the order of 100W to maintain speed on the level and maybe 300W to accelerate to that speed.  A friend has a petrol-powered rail speeder in 7-1/4inch gauge powered by a 150cc two-stroke which will happily haul himself and two riding cars loaded with up to 8 adults and 8 kids without raising a sweat.  He has another one with just a 30cc brushcutter motor which will propel him at ridiculous speeds. My research indicates a 30cc brushcutter/strimmer motor can pump out in excess of 500W.  There are some downloads from model engineering websites which can help you calculate the rolling resistance of a loaded train, and then you only need to decide how quickly you want to accelerate in order to calculate the power required.
A potential source of suitable 12V motors is the electric fans on earlier model cars, they are often upwards of 300W, don't rev too fast, and built to run all day.


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## JCSteam (Jun 6, 2017)

Ok so I've looked into this a little more, and with some friendly advice from my local engineering society, I've figured our how the axles are attached, (rather been told how they did it and after a second set of wheels the axles and chassis remain strong). 

The idea is a 3-4mm chassis frame, with a 6mm cross stretcher, front and back, with probably one inbetween the wheels for rigidity. The axles been held in plumbers chocks, (new term for me but something I've seen before, bearings held within an opening held to a chassis with bolts). 

This thread may continue further into a build


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## Cogsy (Jun 6, 2017)

JCSteam said:


> The axles been held in plumbers chocks, (new term for me but something I've seen before,


 
The correct term (which sounds a lot like what you typed) is 'plummer blocks'. Very standard bearing mounting arrangement especially in conveying and agricultural applications, which allow for a small amount of misalignment.


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