# popular science mystery engine



## Geoffrey (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi all, I'm new on the forum, for years I've been fascinated with Stirling engines, but have never found the time to build one , maybe for the lack of equipment to attempt such a task, I only recently found the flame licker engines on youtube, so this has given me more incentive to actually make the time and invest in the tools that are required to build these engines, I found this design for a flame licker on Google Books http://books.google.com/books?id=9SwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA206&dq=popular+science+mystery+engine&hl=en&ei=yYAuTK-DG8-TkAX5zd2CBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=popular%20science%20mystery%20engine&f=false it looks quite nice and should be in the realm of my capabilities to build something similar, I am toying with the idea of using what I can find off the shelve to build one and was wondering if anyone had already done such a thing, a thought I had was to use a cast-iron brake cylinder of a suitable size or even a cylinder and piston from a small domestic refrigerator compressor, most likely wishful thinking, anyway enjoy the the link, I think you will like it..... ;D


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## Cedge (Jul 3, 2010)

Geoffery
There is a lurking member on this board who isn't comfortable posting, but I've seen his work and it's prety incredible. He builds his engines with only a lathe and drill press and odds and ends he has laying about. Parts from sewing machines, reel type lawnmowers, even gears from an old cigarette machine all have found their way into his marvelous creations.

He used old cast iron brake master cylinders to create hit and miss engines that look as if they were simply meant to be hit and miss engines. They run beautifully and it's always fun to be a round when he reveals what they are to visitors to his display. More than one seasoned engine builder has been noted to have a stunned look on his face as he realizes what he's actually seeing. 

Can it be done as a flame licker?..... I'd have to think it is entirely possible with a bit thought and planning. 

Steve


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## Noitoen (Jul 3, 2010)

Nothing to do with the thread but, when I explore a PM link, I usually go further down the magazine and there's always something interesting. http://books.google.com/books?id=9SwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA206&dq=popular%20science%20mystery%20engine&pg=PA228#v=onepage&q=popular%20science%20mystery%20engine&f=false


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 3, 2010)

Sorry to stay off topic...but I looked at that page that Noitoen linked in.
Is that an April Fool Issue distributed in February?
Bottom right of page 228.
Double the life of the key's teeth by reversing the handle?


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## ozzie46 (Jul 3, 2010)

Just a thought here Zee, But as most people hold the key the same way every time if you reverse the handle does that not put the most used teeth 180* out of the original position? There fore you are in effect using "new teeth".

  Ron


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## shred (Jul 3, 2010)

ozzie46  said:
			
		

> Just a thought here Zee, But as most people hold the key the same way every time if you reverse the handle does that not put the most used teeth 180* out of the original position? There fore you are in effect using "new teeth".
> 
> Ron


I guess it sort of depends how many different size drills you use-- the most worn teeth are probably those engaged right when the chuck tightens when you horse down on it. If you did a lot of similar sizes and held the key the same, it would be the same key teeth all the time.

I'm thinking that's not really a problem in home shops though-- I've got a number of elderly, worn Jacobs chucks and the keys are still fine.


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## Troutsqueezer (Jul 3, 2010)

Interesting link, yes. 

I like the TV's they used to market back then with the "giant" 16 inch screens. They make no mention of the included standard speakers at 12" dia. Two of them no less.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 3, 2010)

Geoffrey:
The hardest engines to get running are the low delta t Stirling engines. their is a guy here IIRC Cactusguy. He is an artist by trade and made one run from found objects. 
Tools are great but perseverance vision and creativity are more important. 
 All tools are an extension of your hand and controlled by your brain. My son wanted to build a steam engine from legos. 
I told him I do not see how it can be done but if any one can you can . He did it yes i gave a few pointers in the process. 
Tin


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## Stan (Jul 3, 2010)

Jacobs chuck keys get chewed up when you loosen the chuck if you use the same hand as when you tighten it. If you hold the key in your right hand and tighten the chuck, you apply pressure that holds the teeth in mesh. If you now try to loosen the chuck, the pressure applied moves the teeth out of mesh and chews them up.

To solve the problem, just tighten with your right hand and loosen with your left hand with the key on the opposite side of the chuck.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 3, 2010)

Well that's another one on me. I would've thought the teeth mesh the same way regardless of hand. But I'm quite familiar with the nuances of 'usage'. Thanks.


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## cidrontmg (Jul 3, 2010)

Back to the original topic...  ;D
A flame licker is quite touchy as to the position of the flame. It must be exactly at the right height and distance from the port, or it won´t run at all. If you look closely at this
http://www.bengs-modellbau.de/materialsaetze/flammenfresser/flammenfresserdergrossenick.php
you can see that Mr. Bengs uses a positioning system where you can fine tune the flame to exactly the right position. This might be a little overkill, but not much. They are touchy beasts, but when you get it right, they run at astonishing speeds (and very little power...) So when you finish the engine   woohoo1, 
and you feel it "should" run,     th_wtf1   
but it won´t, check that flame...    Thm:


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## Geoffrey (Jul 4, 2010)

Yeah, I can see that flame lickers are a bit touchy, they seem to have their own personality not unlike low temperature stirling engines, everything needs to be just right.

About ten years ago I was collecting bits and pieces to build a stirling that would run resting on your hand, but most of that has vanished with all the moving around I've done over the years, I think the only thing I still have is a glass piston and cylinder, so there is still a chance that I may get that built, a friend of mine built one with the same type of piston, he didn't use any special tools to build it , the flywheel was a CD and the bearings were from a old VCR pinch-roller, it run quite well sitting on top of his computer monitor.

I'll have to use a bit of ingenuity to build a flame licker though as I have no lathe but I don't see that is going to be a problem, I can be quite cluey at times, like they say there's more than one way to skin a cat...


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## steamer (Jul 4, 2010)

Definitely what Cedge and Tin said! ;D


Dave


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## Geoffrey (Jul 4, 2010)

maybe someone could clue me up on what type of lathe and mill I should get, I've been looking around at mini lathes with mill attached, but I read where one guy who is a novice bought one but could not work out how the mill was supposed to work as there was no way to hold the job and looking at it myself there didn't appear to be any type of device that is supposed to allow use of the mill, then I don't know much about them never having used one, so any advice would be appreciated.

Geoff


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 4, 2010)

Geoffrey:
In the about HMEM section there is a sticky thread aimed at getting started. Litttlemachineshop.com has starter packages for the mill and lathe . Look here lot of good basic info.http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/reference.php
You will need tooling for the mill and some for the lathe. You are right in that a mill does not come with anything to hold the tools or the parts. they sometimes have a drill chuck but it is useless and unsafe for milling. 
there are thee ways to hold work to the mill table the most common is a milling vise. get one that fits the mill. 
option 2 hold down clamps make sure the t nuts fit the mill. and #3 a tooling plate see here http://www.fignoggle.com/plans/figNoggle_X2FixturePlateV2.pdf If you want to read of the trials and tribulations of knowing nothing to building engines and learnig a lot on the way read the posts of Zeeprogramer. He is self taught and one of our most active members. I would also get a full drill bit set of a 115pieces an import set is fairly cheap but may cause problems. I started with an import set ,a made in usa set is about $120and on my wish list. buy taps and dies as needed. get good taps not cheap hand taps. There is an immense amount to learn a lot can be learned from reading books. Read the info section in tool and supply catalogs McMaster carr on line is good.Manufacturers sometimes have guides to select the right tool for the job but these are often aimed at the pro shop. 
 Remember to budget for tooling accessories and some material. tooling a mill can cost almost as much as the mill. the lathe not as bad to get started a 3 jaw chuck usually standard and a drill chuck a live center and a handful of bits will get you going . If you want "Full" capability then a steady rest follow rest face plate drive dogs micrometer stops indicator holder etc. that will add up. Some lathes come withall that. As far as measuring tools a 6" caliper digital or dial ,a 6" rule and a 0-1 mic should get you going a 4" machinist square and a dial indicator should be close behind. 
I had the fun an luxury of being trained by the USAF as a machinist welder. I was paid to learn the basics. I love helping others get started in this hobby. If you want to learn we will help you teach yourself. 
Tin


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## steamer (Jul 4, 2010)

Again.....what Tin Said!  ;D

We like helping people who help themselves....if your willing to work and try, so are we.

Dave


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## Geoffrey (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks for the links Tin, I've had a look around and like you said it all adds up and can become quite expensive, so it will take some time before I can afford a lathe and mill, life's necessities come before my wants, so I guess that I'll have to see what I can make with the tools that I have, it's surprising what you can do with a file and elbow grease.

I'll have to improvise and use what I can find, I just might build that stirling after all, it will be simple enough to do, just wish I hadn't misplaced that nice brass flywheel and fittings, I have a sneaky suspicion that they took a trip to the garbage dump :'(   

Geoff


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2010)

Geoffrey:
When I went to USAF Aircraft sheetmetal school most of the tools we used were manually operated tools. Air powered drills were used a lot. Shaping of parts done mostly with a file. all edges finished to 600 grt with sandpaper. One day the air compressor went out. no power for the drills the instructors pulled out a box of egg beater style hand drills and the work went on. I have heard that many of the old apprenticeships required hand bench work before you got near a machine. One of the classic exercises is give the apprentice a piece of round stock and have them make a cube. I heard of one story where the students of a school were given a block of metal at the beginning of summer before the course started. that assignment was to make the block into a cube and present it to the instructor on the first day of class. Many would give up before the classes even started. Talk about early weeding. 

I have a reprint of a 1942 vintage Aircraft sheet metal book. Project 1 is to make a drill point gage.
the standards
1) made to correct size
2)angle correct 
3)corners sharp as laid out
4) correct radius
5) Hole centered
6)Edges straight and square
7) tool marks and burs removed 
8) craftsman like finish. 
This is made with hand tools cut out with a hack saw and finished with files. 
Tin


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## Geoffrey (Jul 5, 2010)

Tin: 
that sounds a lot like when I was at high school, the metal shop there had no lathes or mills, I think the only thing we had was a drill press and a hand knurler, we had to make a gear puller by hand, as you say with a hacksaw and files, it also had to have a mirror finish, yeah those eggbeater hand drills I remember them, those were the day's.

Geoff


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## Geoffrey (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey Tin, just had to show you this, I friend of mine threw together a stirling using the ends of a bake-bean tin and the remains of his model helicopter tail rotor, it's running on a cup of coffeehttp://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fZEEAR2dqAaum3kVens99yNPpjRYdBUICXdzGjar39o?feat=directlink


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## Dan Rowe (Jul 6, 2010)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> I have heard that many of the old apprenticeships required hand bench work before you got near a machine.
> 
> I have a reprint of a 1942 vintage Aircraft sheet metal book. Project 1 is to make a drill point gage.
> the standards
> ...



Tin,
Some schools still teach hand tools first. I learned at the US Merchant Marine Academy and the description is nearly spot on of the first thing I made in shop class, and I believe the shop classes have not changed because the machine shop on a merchant ship is very similar to a well equipped home shop setup. We did not get to use a hacksaw we had to chain drill the blank and use a cold chisel.

Dan


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## David Morrow (Aug 16, 2010)

Back to the original post, it looks like an engine from "The Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos"

I have that engine in progress but at the current rate of progress I'll get it finished in about 2025...
http://www.ldrider.ca/cnc/fire-eater/fire-eater-1.htm


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## cidrontmg (Aug 16, 2010)

David Morrow  said:
			
		

> Back to the original post, it looks like an engine from "The Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos"
> 
> I have that engine in progress but at the current rate of progress I'll get it finished in about 2025...
> http://www.ldrider.ca/cnc/fire-eater/fire-eater-1.htm



Excellent workmanship, David! That will be a beauty of an engine  :bow:
Just one question. Did Mr. Duclos specify that particular size and shape for the cylinder pedestal?


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## David Morrow (Aug 16, 2010)

cidrontmg  said:
			
		

> Excellent workmanship, David! That will be a beauty of an engine :bow:
> Just one question. Did Mr. Duclos specify that particular size and shape for the cylinder pedestal?



Yes, that's pretty much the correct size & shape according to the plans in the book.


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