# Steam engine for a sternwheeler



## apointofview

Hey guys I wanted to share a big day with you guys. I was able to get my steam engine to the point of running on air and just for test running. I have been working on and off on this engine for a long time and needed to see it run to keep my nerves down. I have so much time making chips without knowing if it would actually work !! 

I have been making this engine up as I go along. All I have is a few pictures of full scale machines and a couple of books about these amazing power plants. To think these were built so long ago with very limited tools is nothing but amazing to me. My engine is mostly T6 aluminum bar stock and brass from the scrap bins of a machine shop near where I work. I can buy it by the pound ! Fasteners are stainless as are the rods to hopefully hold up to getting wet when it gets on a pond someday.

Lost and lots of parts to go but today was a great day to see and hear it run !!! What a relief !!!!!! It is only being fed 1-2 psi I'm sure that will need to go up when it gets a load from the paddle in the water.

I am a very very slow builder and learning how to machine as I go. Its all being done manually on the chinese mini lathe and mini mill and....a sawzall. I have been taking pics of the build so far until my camera vanished a few weeks ago ( no one in the family is owning up to what happened to it ) if anyone wants to see them.

Here is the video
[ame]http://youtu.be/0lkgsXzCYoM[/ame]


Pete


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## hitandmissman

Looks great and love how it runs slow.


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## Philjoe5

Congratulations on a fine running engine.  It runs quite smoothly.  You did a great job on engine details and I'd love to see some closeup photos.

Thanks for showing your work.

Cheers,
Phil


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## Herbiev

Great work. Love the slow graceful movement. What is the bore and stroke ?


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## wagnmkr

That is definitely a labour of love and it is a great runner. The sound and visual impact are excellent.

That is exactly what I am looking for! Does anyone know if there are plans anywhere for one of these engines?

Cheers,

Tom


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## Steve J

Lee Hogson (sp?) sells plans and castings for it. he is the guy out of cinncinati who sells the plans and castings for the 9 cylinder radial engine. I'm sure if you google him you will find his info and be able to find what you need.


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## kvom

You do not have AN engine, you have a SET of engines.

Nice work.


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## apointofview

Hey, that's right a set of engines, never looked at it that way...I guess I should refer to it as a power plant !

Thanks guys for the kind words, I'll start gathering up a few images to show the build on my next days off.

I saw the ageless engines power plant that Steve mentioned, it looks great but it is even more complex because of the added cutoff mechanism it has. It is much more to scale of the Delta Queen's drive system. Mine is just an attempt to build something similar to the western riverboat lever engines.

I saw the sternwheeler down at Disney Magic Kingdom in Orlando and was hooked !! The great movement these power plants have are fun to watch and the full scale one on the disney ship didn't disappoint. They even run a steam turbine/generator from the same boiler to provide the electricity for the boat.

My bore is 5/8" with a stroke of 3 1/2" Those dimensions came about because that was what the round stock I had at the time would accommodate. Not very scientific but it worked.

The slow movement has been hard to achieve. Lots of problems with the full stroke cam driving against the springs holding the valves closed. The force to push 4 valves at the same time made the movement jerky and requires 5 to 10 more psi. I had to lower the spring pressures and line the cam with teflon tape to get the friction down. I don't know how it will hold up. The piston had a viton 'o' ring for a seal but it also had more drag than I wanted. I am trying graphite tape packed into the 'o' ring groove for now, its a lot slicker. Its the same stuff the steam locomotive guys use for gland packing. The paint can and steel bars for a paddle load helped too, lots of mass to keep it smooth.


Hope I didn't miss any questions
Pete


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## wagnmkr

Thanks SteveJ for the link to Lee Hodgson. I found it OK and will check it out when I get time.

Tom


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## Banjoe

Everything is beautiful and in duplicate....so double great work on your part. 

That action is hypnotic. You should set this video to music.


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## don-tucker

If only there were plans I would have found my next project,that is beautiful and I don't mean the tin can &#128512; . Well done 
Don


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## crueby

Very nice!


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## chucketn

don-tucker said:


> If only there were plans I would have found my next project,that is beautiful and I don't mean the tin can &#55357;&#56832; . Well done
> Don


 
There are plans, from Lee Hodgson at :

http://www.agelessengines.com/sb-plans.htm

Chuck


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## ozzie46

Bueatiful running engine!!woohoo1woohoo1


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## apointofview

Again thanks to everyone for the complements !

The ageless engine plans will be quiet a bit different than what I built.  Those are a scale version of the delta queen I believe.  It has a lot of soldered brass. Mine is just a personal design that operates similiar to it made to bolt together mostly of aluminum bar stock and is much simpler in steam control than the plans from ageless.  He runs a much different cam setup too.

There is a video of that looks like that engine design running at a show you can see how different it is.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0OmPBQMUXU&feature=related[/ame]

It sure is a beautiful power plant with even more great movement !

Pete


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## doubletop

One of those Wow! moments when you see something fascinating

Can't wait for the camera to re-appear so we can get to see the build pictures

Pete


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## apointofview

Here ya go, pictures.( still no camera for the latest stuff )
I started with boring the cylinders. The stroke was figured by finding what round stock I had and what might look good for a crank throw on the yet to be built paddle. I later came up with 3 ½ but I started out with about a 4 ¼ hunk of metal to allow for cleaning the ends and if I wanted a 4 inch stroke.
My mill cant handle that length along with the drill bits and reamers, so I went with the lathe. I know this all looks bad but it worked. My 4 jaw wouldnt chuck the 3/16 extension drill bit so I had to chuck my R8 mounted Jacobs chuck on the 4 jaw and get the run out to zero. I made a holder for the round stock to hold it on the compound. This worked pretty good, and when I used the reamers to step up the hole I was able to use the lathe feed to move the cylinder into the reamer for the final cut. 
Overall the holes looked pretty good. I followed up with valve lapping compound and a close fitting brass slug on a rod to knock down the high areas. Last I ran very very fine sand paper on a butterfly rod on an angle grinder. I didnt know where to get a hone to clean up such a small deep bore.
More progress pics later
Pete


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## micro-thai

So Cool.. thank you


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## apointofview

Thanks !!

I put the cylinders between centers and was able to get enough pressure to not have to use a dog. I just cleaned up the surface enough to get rid of all the ugly on the outside. I may dress them up some more later we'll see.
On to the ends of the cylinders. 
I had a plate of .600 T6 that I cut the 4 ends from. I painted up the plate with layout fluid and drew out what I wanted the parts to look like roughly. I just hacked them out with an endmill to get them loose of the plate. I did spend time getting the center hole located correctly and sized to the final bore. I made a jig to line up the loose part on the rotary table and get the bore under the mill correctly. This was my first use of my new rotary table, so I took it slow and got the end supports down to their final size. I counter bored the ends to accommodate the cylinder on one side and the end cap on the other using and end mill and the rotary table since it was already squared up. 
Pete


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## doubletop

That's different. Keep them coming please...

Pete


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## Herbiev

That goes for me too.


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## apointofview

Next up was the end covers one side just flat and the other needed a gland setup to seal the piston shaft. I dont have shots of cutting the brass down to size but you can see how it needed to be shaped. I wanted to fill the cavity that the end supports created I figure the less volume that has to be filled with steam the better. When installed the covers are just .050 from the piston at the end of the stroke. They also needed to be relieved where the steam ports are drilled. Hope that all makes sense; the pictures should add a thousand words or so.

I put the gland fitting in the cover and on the rotary table to remove the excess metal. Cutting that shape was harder than I expected. I drilled and tapped them and popped three holes to mount the assembly. I packed graphite tape from mcmaster carr around the shaft later tightened the cap screws just a little and it proved to be a good slick seal. An o-ring seals the cover for easy r/r.

I then took the end supports and drilled six holes, three counter bored to mount the support to the cylinder and three to mount the cover to the support all with 2-56 hardware.

Next came match drilling the ends to the cylinders. I used the alignment dowel I had made previously, hacked a groove in it to clear a drill bit and spent a long time getting the cylinder vertical!! 

Sure enough I broke a 2-56 tap off flush in one of the cylinders!! I searched forever trying to find a way to get it out. I didnt have any more metal or the will power to make another one. I found the alum method of dissolving it out and it worked great! (Thats the pic of the cyl in the milky liquid)

You may notice i drilled the steam passages at some point but there arent any pics of that operation.  The smaller holes are admission and the larger - exhaust.
Pete


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## don-tucker

Lovely work and nice to see the absence of computer aided machinery,sorry about that boys but it is my birthday and I have had a few ,and any way that is what I call model engineering.
Don


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## Herbiev

Happy birthday Don


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## kvom

don-tucker said:


> Lovely work and nice to see the absence of computer aided machinery,sorry about that boys but it is my birthday and I have had a few ,and any way that is what I call model engineering.
> Don



I was thinking how much easier I could make those parts on my CNC mill.  

Getting the rotab setup for each arc cut needed real determination.  Thm:


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## apointofview

Thanks again for the complements ! That rotary table can mess with your mind !

The only reason I am doing this manually is I cant afford a CNC setup and I have no idea how to design something in a computer. Attaching pictures to these posts was hard enough to figure out.  If I could use CNC I would !! A side note is that is seems CNC requires preplanning and that is something I dont seem to do much of. I usually get a general idea and then start cutting, so I design on the fly. 

Next to muddle my way through was the valve block. Here is where slim to no plans and really no thinking beforehand comes up with such a strange looking design, but I have gotten used to how they look. I really cant explain most of the decisions, I just made up the final shape as I went. I knew I wanted orings on the steam and exhaust pipes so a recess was needed for those. I wanted to be able to bolt on the valve guides but I limited myself with all the metal I removed. Everything ended up fitting but drawing everything out sure would have helped. The bottoms of the holes where the valves seat were cut with an end mill to get them real flat after drilling. The hold down bolt pattern was just evenly spaced out but that just made everything else look un symmetrical. The placement of the bores for the valves was determined by lining them up with the holes in the cylinder supports, none of which are exactly the same. Once I made one I started the rest, another dumb idea, should have done the same operation to each one as I went.

All this was being done with only layout fluid and calipers so the parts from those days were very unique each time. I now have a poor mans DRO ( 3 grizzly remote digital scales ) and everything is much easier to do.

Happy Birthday Don !
Pete


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## don-tucker

I love this post,it shows real skill,and not just switching the machine on and watching it,I know it would be easier on Cnc but that is not always the aim.
Sorry if I'm ranting on but having been brought up old school I can't help myself
Don


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## apointofview

Valves were next. 
I used 416 stainless rod to make the valves and 360 brass for the guides and glands. Just basic turning for the valves. 2 sizes one for intake ( the smaller size ) and the larger for exhaust. Tried to get them as smooth as possible. 
The guides were recessed to allow for the spring to be internal in the valve block. I have seen these type of engines have external springs also. I went with a heavier spring on the exhaust to keep it closed when the cylinder pressurized. The intake just needs a little since it has steam pressure trying to close it all the time. I used plain music wire for the springs for testing, but now its all stainless. I had to guess on what gague, coil spacing and overall size and adjust it later.

The image with the engine getting pumped up with air was to set the spring tension for holding pressure in the cylinder. I set it up for about 40psi, having no idea what it would take to run and just waited till it ran to adjust them. It looks crazy but the contraption was needed to plug all the openings.
I had to cut the springs way down because pressure to unseat 2 valves at a time per cam made for a lot of friction, which made the engine hard to turn over and very jerky. Right now it needs less than a pound of air to keep the paint can turning so a water load wont be that much more. The exhaust springs are down to around 20psi to crack them open.

Turning springs on my lathe was one of the easy things on this project, Just had to experiment with a few sizes of rod to get the right final diameter.

Only the steam valves have glands to limit leaking. I figured the exhaust has so little backpressure that it wont push much up the valve stem. I used the graphite tape as packing just like the piston rod gland. Very little compressed air leaks, time will tell how it works with hot steam.

This point in the project where mentally it became hard because I had to make 8 of everything and they had to be pretty dead on.

Next up the 2 cross heads and 8 lever supports,
Pete


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## doubletop

This gets better every day...


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## apointofview

Next I made the pistons out of brass and they were designed around a viton o-ring but that proved to be too much friction to let the engines run slow and steady.  I am running graphite tape packed into the groove right now.  Time will tell if it holds up to steam and high temperature.  
The next images are forming of the supports that will hold the outboard pivot points for the levers. It took awhile to come up with a shape that would work, and they are all a little different to compensate for the valve block variations.
The last pics are the cross heads.  I liked how these came out just winged the design using pictures in a book and the internet.  I have a stainless pin for the pivot point held by a stainless 2-56 cap screw.  I had to counter bore the crosshead later into the build where the nut sets, turns out that it was in the way of the connecting beam ( should have seen that coming ) .  The pictures show the original config.
Pete


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## apointofview

2 sets of 8 more identical parts Ugggg! 
I needed to fabricate supports for the levers so I chose brass just for the looks and gave them a little bit of shape just to make them look better. Each one is drilled and tapped to secure it from underneath to the engine. 

I had to make a couple of fixtures to allow me to clamp up the little towers in my vise in order to cut a slot for the levers.

I also made 8 little brass parts to attach the valve stems to the levers, but I guess I didnt take any pictures of making those. You can see them on the stems. They have cap screws in the pictures, but I ordered little 2-56 set screws to clean up the look. Those set screws use a seriously tiny allen wrench!!!!

The second to last shot is where I was figuring out where to cut the valve stems. ( they were left real long when they were made ) I also had to see how much room I had to build a support for all the wipers, rocker shaft and after rocker shaft.

I was going to mount the wiper block to the cylinder itself, but I got to thinking that that would be another heat sink that would make keeping the cylinder warm on steam that much harder. I went with cutting grooves in the block where the steam and exhaust pipes are which suspends everything over the cylinder and leaves room for insulation if I need it.

Whew thats enough typing for now !
Pete


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## kf2qd

The only sternwheeler I was ever on didn't really have an engine for propulsion. There were 2 double acting cylinders mounted on each side of the boat driving the wheel, and they had valving, but the "frame" was the entire boat. The only "engine" was an upright that ran a generator for lights and such.


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## Herbiev

Enjoying the ride. Great post.


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## gbritnell

Great work on your engine. I like you find it much easier to make some parts from a piece of round stock. That way you can cut most of the shapes before parting off. The only time I don't use this process is if I have to waste a lot of brass machining a part. 
I have a great interest in paddlewheel riverboats and built one originally to be an RC model but when I got to the point of trying to make removable panels in the upper deck to get to the internals I opted to just make a scale static model.


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## apointofview

Wow !!  That is a great looking boat !!!!!  The details are great especially in the paddle.  Are those really u-bolts with little nuts holding all those paddles to the spokes on the wheel ? The railings are something else that is hard to imagine building....That is amazing.  Is the paddle powered in any way for display ?

I havent really chosen a hull yet.  I wasnt ever thinking 'scale'. My engine is the size it is because I wouldnt want to machine anything with smaller parts than this has at my skill level.  So that being said a 1 gallon can size paddle makes for a BIG boat, so mine will be the monster truck style paddle boat with a large paddle relative to the hull.  It has to fit into the mini van after all.  I dont want to drag out the 1 ton dually to take a model boat to the pond !!

Pete


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## Dave Sohlstrom

Here is an interesting history of River Engineers on the Middle Mississippi.
http://www.mvs.usace.army.mil/Portals/54/docs/history/River_Engineers_on_the_Middle_Mississippi.pdf

George 
Beautiful model of the Suter.

Dave


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## gbritnell

Hi Pete,
My boat is 38 inches long. It worked out to about 1/50th scale. The full sized boat was about 150 feet long. As I mentioned the intent was to make an RC boat but trying to put the curvature on the decks and add all the details made it just about impossible to make removable sections so it ended up as a 'scale model'. It was modeled after a real boat operated by the Army Corps of Engineers. 
Yes the buckets (paddle blades) are bolted with U bolts and nuts. The pilot house is detailed with a table and chair, wheel and some fittings. The main hull and structure is made from Basswood. The paddlewheel and other wood bits are made from Maple. The fittings were all turned from brass and the smokestacks are plastic tubing. The railings were made from Basswood strips. I laid out the railings on a piece of paper, covered it with wax paper, pinned the main rails in place and then glued all the verticals in position. 
Actually the blue in the pictures is quite a bit off from the model. The model is a medium/dark blue. This was the color of the original boat. 
gbritnell


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## apointofview

Gbritnell - That must have taken some serious time to build! What is the diameter of the paddle? 

Dave &#8211; The link to history of River Engineers on the Middle Mississippi only sends me to my own thread, I would like to see what you intended to show me.

Now it was time to start working on the supports for the shafts that hold the valve rockers.

The little bearing blocks were milled from one hunk of metal. It took a little bit of fiddling with holding methods to get it on my rotary table. Once it was held I drilled the center hole and then cleaned up the block to the shape I wanted. I separated them and did a final facing to get them all the same thickness. I ended up changing the support block a lot because the rockers needed clearance below them to pivot and the bearing blocks held the shaft better if they were at the ends of the shafts rather than in the center. To change all that I cut down the support block and added a wider plate with 2 blocks on top of it to support the bearing blocks. I&#8217;m sure that wasn&#8217;t described well, but hopefully the pictures will show what I did. With all that in place I was able to locate where the bearings needed to be and secured them with more 2-56 cap screws. 
The valve lever arms in these pictures were what I made first, but I didn&#8217;t like how they came out or how they looked so I remade them later, but these worked for now to locate everything. The rockers were made with just a simple jig in the vise to hold them in order to cut them all with the same angle. That angle was determined with pieces of cardstock cut to shape and pinned down at the various pivot points till I got the movement I needed.
There are not many pictures of the little parts that make up the two rocker shafts, I guess I was caught up trying to make it work. The shafts are stainless the arms are aluminum, the pins are brass rod, and the spacers to keep everything in place is brass tubing.


Here is a great web site that has nice drawings of the full scale engines these boats ran. I studied these drawings for a long time to understand what was going on. I didn&#8217;t add the complexity of a California cutoff, that would be a lot more work just to be more efficient.
http://www.alaska.net/~rmorris/steamboat1.htm

Pete


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## Dave Sohlstrom

I corrected the link.

Dave


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## apointofview

Thanks for the link update, which is a lot of neat information!

Next up was the beams to mount up everything. Here is where I wished I had bigger tools. The stock I had needed to be cut lengthwise in half. I dont have a band saw so cutting it with an endmill is my only choice. The problem I had was my table travel wasnt enough! I had to cut as much as I could with the mill and finish up with my sawzall with a metal cutting blade in it. It did the job but required several setups to make the parts look good their entire length. All that cranking to cut these bars wore me out, so I started another project to make a power feed for my mill. Necessity was the mother of invention once again. www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f28/x2-mini-mill-power-feed-21466/

After that I set the cylinders up and drilled up the mounting points. I made the holes a little large to allow for tweaking the final positions to get smooth movement as the crosshead slides back and forth.

I made 4 guides for the crossheads next. I located them drilled up the mount points and then did a little extra cutting to dress them up. They came out just a touch low in their position relative to the crosshead, so a little shimming was required. 

Pete


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## apointofview

Next I remade the levers for the valves. I didnt like the look of the first levers so after some doodling on paper this is what I came up with.


The next items to build were the cams. The shape is very different from most cams. It opens the valves very fast and keeps them open for most of the stroke. The full scale engines ran cams like the one I made and then used a cutoff mechanism to stop the flow of steam to the cylinder mid stroke when less power was needed and to improve efficiency. I may add a cutoff some day but that remains to be seen.


It took awhile to figure out how I was going to fabricate the cams, but eventually I came up with a jig that gave me two pivot points on my rotary table that allowed me to cut the curves I needed. I had to mark several points on the metal to start and stop cuts and then rotated the part and the table multiple times to get it all done.

There was a lot of force needed to turn the cam aginst the valve springs once it was installed. That force made for a bunch of friction, I had to wrap the cam with teflon to get the friction low enough to allow for the engine to turn slow and smooth.

Pete


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## Philjoe5

I really enjoy your posts.  The photo documentation is excellent.  I can appreciate your having to stop in the middle of a machining operation to take a picture

Cheers,
Phil


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## Herbiev

I was about to say exactly what Phil said. Great work.


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## motoseeya

man I hope to one day be able to come close to the kind of work you are doing. looking forword to seeing more of the build.


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## apointofview

Thanks guys ! It is very hard to remember the camera. It has to be sitting right next to the machines or I will skip shooting the part so I can keep my train of thought going. What has helped is there have been multiple parts that are all the same so the pictures are usually not of the first one. Shooting the copies is easier because I am just repeating what I did and not having to figure much out.

As far as quality goes thanks a bunch, but I am just a hack and I am slow. My boiler was the first part of this adventure and it was started back in 2010 !! I have been working on and off on this since then. I have modified so many intended dimensions due to goofs in this project. What helps is that there arent any plans so you couldnt prove the discrepancies !!  If I had some formal training on machining then maybe I could take on something like the gas burning mechanical wonders I see others create. I sure couldnt do what I have done without this web site. I have seen so many fantastic projects built here and all the advise that is freely given is amazing.

Supports for the cross shaft for the valve pushrods were next. Pretty simple I just hacked them out with a ziz wheel and then cleaned up the edges with the mill. I just had to keep repositioning the parts to cut straight lines due to the lack of cnc ! The brass bushing got dressed up a little by removing material in the middle. I also had to remove material from the beams that support the engine to allow the supports to sit flush but no shots of that today. I didnt get pictures of making the little fittings that make up the rod ends and levers, so just a shot of them completed and installed is all I can offer.

Almost caught up to where I am in the build process
Pete


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## apointofview

Next up, the cranks for the paddle shaft.  
I had made temporary parts out of wood for the test run, so I already had the critical dimensions needed.  I spent most of the time getting the rotary table setup correct.  It is always tough to switch out the vise with the RT.  I try to avoid switching too much but it seems I have the wrong one mounted most of the time.  Anyway it was just a matter of drilling the holes and then I used a ½ inch shaft in the 4 jaw on the RT to provide support.  I used the set screw that will secure the crank to the paddle shaft to hold the raw part to the shaft in the chuck.  The smaller bore end I had to drill the support shaft and bolt down the part since there isnt a set screw to use.  I pressed a brass pin in the smaller bore for the connecting rod to ride on later.
Pete


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## apointofview

Next to build were the connecting rods.  
I had the quick test run rods so all I needed was to make nicer looking permanent versions.  I made the ends out of aluminum and the beam out of poplar.  I made a full size doodle of what I wanted it to look like and then started with the ends.  The pics are of the engine side fittings, the other ends were made in a similar way.  All the work was done on my mill with my rotary table.  I stained and coated them with polyurethane to make them water proof.
Pete


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## barnesrickw

Beautiful done with the mix of metal and wood.


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## apointofview

Thanks for the complement!

Ok I need to fabricate a bunch of items to get this engine running on steam. I decided to get the lubricators done next. I did a lot of reading on the internet and decided on a dead leg displacement oil lubricator to do the job. I made two one for each cylinder, and I will position them just before each engine. 
I made a drain valve on each one to remove the water that accumulates based on a design I saw here - http://www.nelsonslocomotive.com/Shay/Engine/CylinderCocks/CylinderCocks.htm

I tried to make tapered drain cocks with little success. They kept leaking !! I found this design with a pin rotating in a Teflon sleeve. It is simple to make and works great. 
I made an o ring sealed cap and threaded boss to hold it and then soldered it all together on a 1/2inch pipe. Last was to drill a small hole in the feed line and into the side of the assembly and solder that all together.

It will take two posts for all the pictures.

Pete


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## apointofview

Not the smoothest sequence of pictures but hopefully you get the idea !
Here is the rest
Pete


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## don-tucker

Beautiful work,exactly how I go about things.love the fact that it is all done manually as model engineering should be &#128540;
Don


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


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## apointofview

Thanks Don !!
I wanted to try my hand at making a couple of T fittings to attach the new lubricators to the engines.  I know I could just solder the plumbing together but this was fun to try.
I am running 1/4 OD copper tubing for the steam lines and all I have available is ½ 360 brass stock so it made for one leg being small but workable.  After I whittled it down with the lathe and mill I ran my dremel across it for awhile and then hand filing.  A final sanding and polishing made for a pretty good looking part.
The funny thing is all that cleanup effort was really for practice only, because I wrapped the steam lines with cotton string to insulate them ! Didnt think that far ahead!!  
Pete


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## Heffalump

Those T's look great!!!


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## apointofview

Thanks for the kind words !!

Ok next on my list is throttle control.  I made a throttle way back before I started the engines and it proved to be more of an on off switch.  I did a lot of searching for ideas I could build and I found this http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f12/rotary-steam-regulator-9492/ on the downloads section of HMEM !  Thanks Adrian !!!  It is a neat design and so far works great on air !!

I changed it a little to suit my materials.  I started with an old piece of 3/4 brass drift and made the body. 






Im still not sure how to single point thread clear to the base of an object but I got close.  I ground off the side of my tool bit to do it.  If there is a better way I would love to hear it !






I kept the base and the top of the regulator together for the bolt hole drilling operation so they would line up to each other.  So it was over to the rotary table on the mill for those.  I used 2-56 stainless cap screws here.








Back to the lathe to part them and then face the base as smooth as I could.  The critical part of this valve seems to be the finish of the valve disk and the base.









I thought I got them smooth but the camera tells me I still have a little way to go.  Some of the marks on the brass are left over polishing compound.  Its getting shinny, that dark circle in the middle is the reflection of the camera lens !




The top of the valve went in the lathe to make the cavity the valve disk sits in.  I used an end mill to start the hole and a boring bar to get it to size.






More valve parts to come in the next post.  I am out of room for pictures.

Pete


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## apointofview

The stem and plate that has the driving pins was my next task.  I drilled the center of an old brass faucet stem.




Moved it to the mill where I removed the sides and drilled the offset holes that the design calls for. 






back to the lathe to part it off and then press on the stainless stem and thread in the 2-56 studs. silver solder it all together and done with that piece.









The valve disk is next, the same faucet stem made for a perfect size to start with.  I made the face as smooth as I could




over to the mill to cut down one side.  here I changed the design to cover the hole in the base easier and allow me have a larger hole if I need it. Then back to the lathe to cut it off.






I needed to drill the two small pockets that the studs sit in and not ruin the smooth surface on the other side.  I came up with super gluing the disk to a hunk of aluminum and then clamp it up to do the drilling.  It worked well and the super glue came off easy from the shiny brass surface.




This is the assembled top




Not enough room to show the drilling of the top and bottom parts for the inlet and outlet, but it was just some careful lining up and one shallow hole in the top part. A little copper tubing and some solder and its done.




The bottom had another change, I made the base thicker to just let me drill the steam passage across the middle of the base to eliminate the work to make plumbing parts the plans show.  I also moved the outlet hole to the side near the inlet hole because my half circle disk would restrict steam flow.  As it is there is almost a straight shot from the inlet hole to the outlet hole when full open.




The only part I didnt make was the gland nut.  Those are from the plumbing section of home depot.  All I did was drill a hole for the stem and cleaned off some of the nut faces to dress them up.  I bought those because I dont know how to make internal threads that go to the bottom of the part.  At .60 cents its not that big of an expense !




All done with both, I just need to make flanges to make it so I can bolt them in the system.




Pete


----------



## apointofview

I gave the engines a short test run on steam, and I found out things are much different than nice clean compressed air !

Condensation is going to be my biggest problem I think.  I had lots of water blowing out of the exhaust pipes and since they point up I had big slugs of hot water burping out all over.  

This little trial run made me work on a cylinder drain setup.  because the bottoms of the engines are not easy to get to I wanted something that would stick out the front of the engine and need only one point on each engine to open and close them.  I didn't want to have to rig up a way to move four separate independent valves all at the same time. 

After much head scratching and staring at the engines this is the solution I came up with

Started out with brass and turned it down in order to thread it to 10-32



Threaded it with a 10-32 die and drilled out the center with a nbr 40 bit



Over to the mill to drill out the passage for a teflon sleeve and cut it down a little to allow a wrench to tighten the fitting.






Parted that off and made three more






Next was to drill, tap, and spot face the cylinder ends for the fittings.  The spot face was a little different on each of the four cylinder ends to allow each fitting to line up correctly.  That made it so I have to keep the same fitting with its matched cylinder end.






I made the four Teflon sleeves next and inserted them in the brass fittings.






I had to modify the brass end covers to allow for water and steam to be able to get to the hole in bottom of the cylinder end fitting.  This is the inside surface of the flat cover the other end that has the piston rod is similar. 




I dont have enough pictures to show everything but here is the bottom of one engine and I will try to explain whats going on.  The 1/8 brass pipe that runs through the two drain fittings has a brass plug inside it halfway down its length.  There are two small holes drilled in the pipe both in the same direction at the center point of each fitting.  By rotating the pipe I can line up the holes in the pipe to the holes in the cylinder drain fittings which allows water and steam to escape.  The plug in the center of the pipe forces all that to go to the open end of the pipe and overboard out of the engine.  If I didnt have the plug installed the some water would just go from one end of the engine to the other. 






I made a few levers to clamp for my throttles and for the cylinder drains. Later I will connect a push rod to  both levers so one movement will open or close all 4 drains.  Seems to work good on air. 




Steam will have to wait because I still need feed water pumps ( I run low on water to fast ) and some more insulation to try to keep the heat in the steam.  There is sure to be more stuff I need to make that I haven't even thought of yet.

This sure is a long term project !!!

Pete


----------



## apointofview

I ran it on steam !!!

I have been working on plumbing in the engines to run off the boiler I made several years ago. It was late at night and I had to work in the morning ( 3:30 am wake up ) but I couldnt just leave it all hooked up and not try running it. So after oiling up and filling the boiler with rainwater I have been collecting, here is what it looked like !!

[ame="http://youtu.be/W6c2ZtJiy0w"]http://youtu.be/W6c2ZtJiy0w[/ame]

This is another view


http://youtu.be/sTV-OIMf2jw


Sorry the video is so wobbly but I was in a hurry so I could keep up with the water level and pressure. I'll do a better one later and maybe I will clean up the area a bit to see everything easier !!

I am pretty thrilled !! I have been thinking about this event for a long long time. 

I still have lots to do. The throttles failed, I think the solder joint inside gave out so I have to redesign those or use real silver solder. ( I ran out and was avoiding forking over for more ) There are several little leaks to fix and I have to hook up the axle water feed pump to keep up with water consumption. Also it looks like the boiler will need more heat. All I could maintain was 20 psi with the engines unloaded and that was not for a long time. I think its a little small for the job but its all I have and building another is not an option right now.

Anyway did I say I was thrilled !!!! I didnt even get to bed till 12:00 and then I couldnt sleep. I maybe slept 2 hrs but it was worth it !!!!!!

Pete


----------



## doubletop

Pete

Looks like I can be the first to say congratulations. 

First time on steam is always a major moment, and a must in my book. Running on air is only half the job.

Pete


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## apointofview

Pete,

Thanks a lot!
I had no idea how much more work steam would be vs the trusty compressor.  It sure is messy too. There is still a lot for me to figure out to get it running for any length of time and doing it slow and steady.  I sure am having fun learning though.

I do have a question for you guys with more experience (which is probably everyone )  How much steam oil should the engine be using for a run.  I ran about a quart of water thru the boiler in addition to the water that it was filled with initially and my oilers levels only dropped about a quarter inch. That doesnt seem like enough, but I'm not sure how to tell what is the right amount of consumption (each cylinder has its own oiler and they have a diameter of 1/2 inch.) 

Thanks
Pete


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## Jyman

That sounds a little heavy on the oil, as steam does also act as a lube when it condenses in the cylinder. You should be able to get away with using about half the oil that you are using.  I would open up the engine and look for any piston marks on the cylinder. As that is a good way to tell how much oil you need. 

But that is totally up to you, on how you feel about how much oil you are using. You are the one running the engine not me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Model Engines


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## doubletop

Pete

Yes it is a bit messy but you'll also have appreciated how much better the engine sounds on steam.

It would seem to be too much oil, but in these early days too much is better than too little while everything gets bedded in. Its not like the engine is doing any appreciable work either.

I'd suggest that checking for scored bores is a bit late in the process. You're hoping not to get any scores in the bores.

Pete


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## apointofview

Jyman and Pete - Ok, I feel a lot better knowing its too much oil rather than running it low.  I pulled one of the cylinder covers and the bore looks fine, I would have hated to find it scored up !!  I'll hold what i have for now while I keep building and adjusting and then try to cut it back once everything is completely done and broken in.  What's the downside of running to much oil through the engine ? Drag maybe, this steam oil is really thick, its Green Velvet Sapon-A-Max 320 Cylinder Oil.   I guess cost too because it wasn't cheap !!!

Pete - You are so right the sound in the video doesn't do justice to what I was hearing, I loved it.  The mess is great too but that might be because its all new to me, I know I was grinning when I was getting hit with hot little drops of water.  When I blew down my sight glass and soaked the garage door I had to do it again to show the wife and kids how neat that jet of hot water and steam looked !! 
I'm hooked...
Pete


----------



## apointofview

Well its been awhile since I last updated this thread but its because I have had to switch projects.  I had to completely guy and redo our kitchen.  I finished that and then had to catch up with all the other stuff that fell behind when I was workin the kitchen.  So I got to get back to some time with the mill and lathe the past day or two.

I had started to work on the feed water pump for the boiler, and change out all the temp plywood parts at the paddle shaft to permanent metal versions.

The feed water pump is proof that if you start out cutting without a plan the outcome can be strange looking.  I wanted a single pump that could be a hand pump and an axle pump.  I wanted to be able to use the same check valves for both pumps just to cut down on making twice as many of those finicky buggers.  The result is one housing that has two rams, one on each end to do the pumping.  Between them are the two check valves, one to admit water to the pump and one to check the outgoing water.  One ram has a handle attached to it to fill the boiler for start up and adjust the level as needed.  The other ram is connected to the paddle shaft.  It is driven by an normal eccentric but between the ram and the eccentric is and adjustable 'lever' for lack of another word.  The lever has a center pivot point that is adjustable.  The cam is connected to the lever on one end and the ram to the other end.  by moving the center pivot pin towards one end or the other the stroke of the ram can be increased or decreased.  I hope that makes some sense.

Due to the lack of time I didnt take many pictures of the fabrication process this time.

This video might help.  The engine is under just air pressure and isnt timed very well right now and the paint can flywheel isnt on the shaft so the motion is not as smooth as it has been.

Pete

Video link - 

http://youtu.be/Dg_U2GQU6hk


Pictures of the parts in random order


----------



## barnesrickw

Sometimes you just can't beat the sound of steam. 


Sent from my iPad using Model Engines


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## apointofview

Its time for my paint can flywheel to go.  
I decided to build to paddle wheel for the engines out of solid brass rod for the weight.  I found a simple ring roller design on the web here http://theatremetalwork.myblog.arts.ac.uk/2011/02/11/do-it-yourself-ring-roller/
I carved out three grooves on some aluminum round stock and then bolted all that to a previously useless vise that had been collecting dust for a long time. I was able to roll 8in diameter circles fairly easily, i was pleasantly surprised how well it worked.
Next up was a jig to solder it all up.  I attached a piece of plywood to my rotary table and milled out the wheel pattern with a 3/16 end mill.  I notched the ring and the spoke at each point where they attach and then milled away the center to clear the next spoke.  The plan is to attach a solid hub on each side of the wheel to allow for a good solid connection to the paddle shaft.  Each wheel has sixteen spokes and there will be 4 wheel assemblies.  This is turning out to be very tedious.  I have to use two soldering guns to get the metal hot enough to solder.  I cant use my torch due to my choice of wood as the template !! The center is the hardest to heat up and it looked kind of nasty,but after milling down the center area it is fairly clear of voids in the joints.   Anyway, one down three to go.  The first one seems pretty flat and round looks like it will spin fairly true.
Pete


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## Jyman

Wow I love that idea for a ring roller, thanks for sharing it


Sent from my iPhone using Model Engines


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## apointofview

This paddle wheel is turning out to be very tedious, but after lots of soldering with out good enough equipment I now have all four wheels.  I turned hubs for each out of brass to strengthen up the center and give me a place to put a set screw to hold the wheel to the shaft.  I mounted the wheel to a shaft in my mill and held a piece of hss in my vise to turn the outside edge of the wheel.  My lathe is too small to handle the diameter.  I was happy with the results, I didnt have to remove too much material off the diameter to make them true, so my ring rolling and plywood jig worked pretty well.  Lots of cleanup to go on the joints ( all 64 of them ) but I mounted them up for a test look and spin.  Now I have to figure out a way to mount the paddles to the wheels. This is where planning ahead might have helped !
Pete


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## apointofview

Here is the progress on my steam engine setup.

I was having trouble making enough steam to keep up with the appetite of the two engines with the boiler I built long ago.  It was built with the thought of a much smaller engine.  Making another bigger better boiler isnt an option so I went the route of throwing more heat at it.  I built a stainless steel box around the boiler and insulated the inside with two layers of ceramic insulation.  This allowed me to add a second burner under the boiler along with the original that dumps its heat down the flue pipes.  I added several feet of copper tubing between the burners and the boiler shell inside the stainless box to make a better superheater.  The steam is now hot enough to melt the first soft solder joint that was in the plumbing about 6 inches downstream to the engines.  It was interesting when it gave way; tiny balls of solder are stuck to everything near the failed joint! A side benefit of the elevated steam temp is that it seems to be much dryer so the problem with condensation in the cylinders has been reduced.   I still want to cover the top of the boiler with some kind of wood planking just for decoration over top of the ceramic insulation.  I dont have any construction shots of the boiler just a few of how it sits today.  It now can build pressure the all the way to the relief valve while the engines run!  It looks like the fuel burn rate is about 4oz of propane in a half an hour.













I bought a steam attenuator from John Hemmens in England to keep more control over the burners and the boiler pressure.  I want to be able to float this setup in a boat and not have to worry about what the boiler is doing while it is out on a pond. Next up will be plumbing that into the system and getting a remote control fuel shutoff and throttle setup. 




The engines now have the ability to shift to reverse.  I came up with a setup that uses a couple of short arms on a torque shaft that shift the valve cam linkage from the upper pin or the lower pin on the valve cranks of both engines at the same time.  I bought a landing gear retract servo for my remote control setup and it seems to work well.  I have done test runs shifting from forward to reverse while running on compressed air and I dont see where running on steam will make any difference, so that takes care of another hurtle.
Just a side note the camera really points out how dirty the engine has gotten doesn't it !














Here are a couple of shots of one of the cams mounted and the cam follower brackets.  I bonded teflon tape to the surfaces the cam rubs on to try to cut down friction and wear.  It takes a lot of force to open the valves and the cam shape moves the open very quickly.  All that effort was effecting the motion of the paddle wheel, making it speedup and slow down during low throttle settings.  I expect to run the paddle in the 40 to 100 rpm range so it needs to be smooth, but that will ultimately depend on how well it moves the boat.






I am real close to calling the paddle drive system done enough to start building the boat it will go in and that doesnt really fit into the category of this forum.  I want to go back through the engine to clean up some of the parts that were completed to the point of working well but not as pretty as they could be and then polish everything up to a shine.  I will post a final set of pictures when it is all done someday, but thats a long way off.

My ultimate goal is to drag this engine and the boat it will go in to a machinist show!! It wont be as nice as the artwork I see other create, but its still kind of unique.  I have only been to one show and that was Cabin Fever a couple years ago and I loved it. It will be a long drive to bring something there but I think it would be fun !

Pete


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## RonGinger

Please continue to show your boat work here- that is a fine topic for this forum. Also please bring this to cabin fever- I expect to be there and would love to see this engine.


----------



## apointofview

Oops I forgot to put the video link of the linkage running on the last post so here it is.

Pete


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHmj02_Z3I"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHmj02_Z3I[/ame]


----------



## apointofview

Thanks Ron,
Unfortunately I wont be able to make it to Cabin Fever this year it will have to be next year. 
Pete


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## necchiom

Amazing! With compliment and thanks for sharing.


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## kno3

It sure does run nicely!


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## RonGinger

Sorry you wont be at Cabin Fever, I would like to see that engine.

Is it a scale model of a real engine or your own design? The reverse link is something I have never seen before. It looks like a very clever arrangement.


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## apointofview

The engine is based around the lever engines of the western river sternwheelers in the 1800's.  I just looked at exterior drawings and worked out an arrangement that I thought I could build with my skill level and the materials I had around and the capabilities of my Chinese mill and lathe ( which are more than mine ) .  So I guess its my design but it operates and looks a lot like those engines.  Here is a link to some of what I used http://www.alaska.net/~rmorris/steamboat1.htm
You can see the reverse linkage but its partially covered up by a guide plate.
I also bought a book called 'smoke ash and steam' from these folks http://www.islandnet.com/~westisle/History/horizeng.html
Those gave me the info to build what I have.  The coaxial shaft setup of the rockers was hard to understand how it worked from just those drawings.

I didnt design in any cutoff for my engines like those drawings have in them, I am not too concerned about steam/fuel conservation at this point.  Maybe that would be a modification someday.


----------



## apointofview

Well I have been unhappy with the performance of the first set of boiler steam pressure relief valves that I made so I went looking for a good design to use to make a more reliable set.  My design works but they just start dribbling more and more as the pressure rises, and as they let out steam they just sort of close.  I wanted more of a pop action and a little reading told me my design was all wrong.  I have made most of this steam engine up as I have gone, now its time to let someone else's design and wisdom fix my problem.  I didnt want to reinvent the wheel so I went with a design by this guy  http://sparetimelabs.com/animato/animato/3003/3003as.html
I liked the design because it allows for the adjustment of both the relief pressure and the reset pressure.  I had to convert everything to inches and set the proportions for a .250 stainless steel ball, which is what I have lying around.  I have them set with shop air so far and they work well.  One is set for 40psi and it drops about 5 psi before closing and the other is set at 45psi and drops about 5 psi also.  I will adjust them under steam later.  They are a little big but they wont be seen when the ship is built anyway and too big is better than too small when talking safety valves.
Here are the shots of how they came out I didnt shoot any chip making pictures this time, thats hard to remember sometimes when I just sneak into the garage to whittle at metal for a short time when no one is looking for me !!

Pete


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## apointofview

Here I go into uncharted waters ! 
I have never built a boat of any kind so why not start out over my head.  I wanted to build a boat that looks similar to the sternwheeler down in Disney.  It was built to represent the look and feel of the riverboats of long ago.  I figure it would make a good subject to use as a pattern for my attempt.  Another benefit is my wife is more supportive of it because it means a ' research trip ' to go see the details.  

I started off with a little drawing on my custom graphite 2D design system.


Once I got a rough outline of what I wanted I scaled it up to the size needed to support the weight I anticipate it will be.  I am just making a wild stab at the 50lb mark but who knows. I never did this before.  I need a weight to figure a waterline to set the paddle depth which will determine the deck height !!  If I guess wrong I can ballast it if I am too light.  If its to heavy then it will be surgery I guess.  After the big drawing I started cutting foam for a mock up.  I use the 1/4 inch blue fan fold stuff from Lowes.  Its a lot cheaper that wood and easier to make changes.  The first build up looked short and fat, so I added some length to the hull in the middle.  That helped but it was still funny lookin.  I added more to the bow, but that takes it to a length that wont fit sideways in the back of the minivan ( ugg now its either haul out the truck to go float this thing or pull a seat out of the van )    
















Anyway the look was still not right but looking at images of the real boat closer showed me that the sides of the upper decks lean inboard.  I cut down the floors of each deck to get the right lean and now its getting better.  I have a lot more adjusting to do, but progress is being made, I think.  The top deck in these shots hasnt been cut down yet.  I want to finalize almost everything in foam before going to wood and fiberglass.  I think it will take awhile.




I should have built a smaller steam engine.  It will be way way out of scale for the hull, but I doubt anyone will care, I know I dont.  I just want it to float and propel itself with steam and not catch fire, explode, and or sink !!



Looks like my dining room table workbench is about outlasted its welcome too, so I will have to clear off the work bench to continue.

Pete


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## Dave Sohlstrom

Pete

Think about increasing the hull length. River boats tend to be long and narrow with shallow draft. As it looks now to my eye it is to tall for the length you have.
Here is a photo of Mikes W. T. Preston. It is not a mississippi river boat but you can see the length, width, height ratio.

Dave


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## apointofview

Dave,
Yep your right but since I didnt plan ahead at all I am forced to keep the width at least 16 inches to fit the engine and boiler as built.  The length is already 55 inches which is making it really big.  Much bigger and dealing with transporting and storage will be a problem.  Also the boat I am using as a pattern isnt that far off, I dont think.  It might be a little unrealistic to the real riverboats but it does exist and it is a real full scale boat.  I tried to get Disney to send/sell me a few drawings of their boat but all I got was the telephone number to their legal dept !!
Here is what it looks like 








Do you think I am way off in my rough draft ?

Pete


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## Dave Sohlstrom

Pete

Do some displacement figures and keep the super structure as light as possible. Are you planning an open superstructure as we see in the photos. That way they will be able to see the boiler and engines with the superstructure in place.

Dave


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## apointofview

Yes I'm going to shoot for the open decks like the Liberty Belle.  It seems to have two cores in the center for the stairways, and they probably gives the floors a lot of rigidity.  The forward one may be in the way a bit for the boiler, but all that metal will sit low in the hull under the smoke stack as close to the belly as possible to try to lower the CG.  I guess lots of balsa wood for the superstructure.  All those posts will test my commitment to this project !!  

As for displacement calcs, from what I gather I am supposed to determine the area of the hull that will be in the water and then figure out the volume of fresh water it will displace to understand the load it can support.  Is that right ?  I found a online calculator here http://www.blueheronwings.com/bh/comps/bdesign.html
I hope its right because thats what I used....  
Pete


----------



## Dave Sohlstrom

Pete

I'm not sure that calculator is accurate. The numbers will give a shape of a shoe box sitting in water and not take into account the hull shape.
Delfship is a free 3d hull design tool that will give you displacement. It takes a while to get your head around how it works.
The closer you can get to knowing the displacement the better.

Here is a link to delfship   http://www.delftship.net/DELFTship/index.php/delftship/delftship-free

Dave


----------



## bouch

apointofview said:


> Dave,
> Yep your right but since I didnt plan ahead at all I am forced to keep the width at least 16 inches to fit the engine and boiler as built.  The length is already 55 inches which is making it really big.  Much bigger and dealing with transporting and storage will be a problem.  Also the boat I am using as a pattern isnt that far off, I dont think.  It might be a little unrealistic to the real riverboats but it does exist and it is a real full scale boat.  I tried to get Disney to send/sell me a few drawings of their boat but all I got was the telephone number to their legal dept !!
> Pete



I tried to get some info about the Disney World Railroad locos that isn't in Michael Brogies book, and was told that it was all "proprietary information".  The photos you have are probably all the info you'll ever get unless you find a web site where someone has already done the scaling from photos!

Mike


----------



## apointofview

Thanks Dave, 
I will download that and try to get my hull plugged in to it.  I really  want to get a good idea of how deep it will settle into the water.  The tough part is figuring out the weight of the hull.  The boiler, engine and other bits are easy since they exist.

Mike,
Thats pretty cheesy of The Mouse !  I always thought that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  If someone is running around displaying something modeled from their parks it seems like free advertising.  If I was building and selling them that would be different, but just for my enjoyment.....they need to lighten up a bit 

Pete


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## bjo

You aren't far off on your dimensions of the boat you are modeling. At least, if this and a few other sites are correct. http://www.wcdept478.com/MagicKingdom2.htm
Magic Kingdom 2 was renamed Richard F Irvine, then to Liberty Belle


----------



## RichD

Wow!
I just read this thread start to finish.

Pete,
You're very talented. I've learned a lot about thinking "outside the box" from your posts. Thank you so much for all the details and pictures/videos.

On the draft question, do you think you could fill the hull with water while measuring the total gallons used. Then use the 8.3 lbs/gallon rule to get an estimate on where the hull will sit draft-wise? Just a thought.

Rich


----------



## apointofview

bjo - yep I think for my purposes it will be close enough, I have more changes to do, but there is gonna have to be a pause, I am going to rebuild an old s10 with my son. He has started to show an interest in the project so I gotta seize the moment.

Rich - Thanks a lot, I am just a hack that is winging it.  I get my inspiration from the great work I see these guys display on this site.  Its amazing what you can learn from the internet !!

As far as the displacement problem, I think the water idea would work except I really dont have any idea how much the boat structure will weigh.  The foam mock-up isnt good enough to float or hold water so the watertight hull will have to be built on calculation.   I tried to download the Delfship free 3d hull design tool that Dave pointed out to me to get that info but my old computer cant run it.  I will have to borrow my daughters laptop when she isnt needing it for college to run it. That seems like to most accurate way to get the dimensions correct without cutting a bunch of expensive wood.

Pete


----------



## apointofview

For the displacement and balance calculations, I measured and measured. I fiddled with a seesaw arrangement for all the heavy metal parts, and ended up with numbers that looked good to me.  I did download the program Dave recomended and it looks like it would be perfect, except for the fact that I dont have a clue how to get my hull shape into the program, and I dont have the time to figure out how.  I just went with my simple math.






  It was time to see if I ended up with a reasonable setup for weight distribution in real life.  Instead of trying to build a watertight hull , I went with reinforcing the foamy mockup to support the bottom of the hull so when the propulsion components were place on the foam they would deflect the foam only a small amount so as not to mess with my displacement calculations



Then I skinned the bottom of the hull with foam and then water proofed it with a piece of plastic sheet that was just taped to the boat above the waterline.  



Marked some depth lines measured from the bottom of the foam




I built a ' dry dock' and lined it with more plastic and put the boat and all its hardware in it along with the 5 lbs of ballast that my calculations said I would need.  Threw in the garden hose and started filling.  





The  hull floated right about where the math said it should and was only about a 1/4 in off from bow to stern.  That was most likely due to the fact that the bow sides have a curve to them and my geometry layout just made nice triangles with no curves so the real area was a little bigger.  I am thrilled !! The hull weighs 28 pounds with the ballast and the displacement calcs said it should sink 1.5 inches into the water.  I added 14oz to the bow in the form of a bowl and water to make the hull level.  With everthing balanced the hull sank about 1 3/8 inches !! Not bad   I loaded the hull down with another 12 pounds to bring the hull 2 inches down into the water.  At that level the paddle sits just where it should in the water, one bucket will be almost all the way in the water and the leading and lagging buckets are partially in the water and the buckets leading and lagging those are dry.  From what I have read thats what I am to shoot for.  
So with a 2 inch draft the hull, as is, it can support 41 pounds !!!  Thats not light.  I dont know if the boat will be that weight when its made of wood and glass but at least I can predict fairly accurately what will happen and where the paddle will have to sit.  I also know right where the balance point of the hull is so I learned a lot.   The shots of the paddle in the water are at the 1 3/8 depth not the 2 inches I will shoot for on the final wood hull.














Lots of fun today
Pete


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## RonGinger

Nice work, I like that foam model and plastic sheet. Nothing like doing a little testing to confirm the math and set you at ease before you start to build the hull.


----------



## barnesrickw

Your boat looks great.  I've read some history on river steamers, and I don't think floating was a priority.  Catching fire and exploding was, but floating was optional.


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## apointofview

RonGinger - Thanks, the test went well, it was so easy that I am going to mess with the lines of the hull some more to get the look I want and just float it some more.

barnesrickw - Thats funny, you are right those full scale boats seemed explode and sink all the time.  I figure if my boiler gets away from me and takes out the boat then at least I can say I was trying to be historically accurate !

Pete


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## barnesrickw

I wish you luck, but just in case, be sure to film it.

View attachment ImageUploadedByModel Engines1424656296.067232.jpg


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## apointofview

That sure is an awful picture !

Just a quick update on the mock-up progress.  Not a bunch of changes but I am slowly getting the idea of what I want it to look like.  There is little to no precision in this part of the build.  I just am exploring options to the shape of the boat.  Looks like the superstructure will be just a shell.  There is a lot going on for the power plant that takes up a bunch of room.

Pete


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## barnesrickw

That is beautiful.


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## crueby

Pete - I love your foam and tape approach to mocking it up. Several years ago I was laying out the cockpit seats/rail height/footroom on a sailboat (full size) and used stacks of lumber, extension cords, and chair backs to make a test setup that I could sit in to make sure it would be comfortable. Super low tech but it worked! The old school test for setting the balance point of sailboat center of lateral resistance involve cutting out a carboard profile and balancing it on a pencil. Go for what is simple, quick, and works, not what the computer simulation says (this coming from a retired computer engineer!)

Keep up the great work, been watching the build with interest.

Chris


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## barnesrickw

Will you be covering it with epoxy such as the West System, or System Three?


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## apointofview

I was figuring on fiber glassing the bottom of the hull if thats what you mean.  I'll look up those two products you mentioned
Pete


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## apointofview

Just a little progress.  A couple of details, just to think things out.  
Looks like I am going to add lights like the Disney boat has.  I had a small strip of LED lights left over from the under cabinet lighting I put in our kitchen just to test it out.   It should look good.  
I bought some thin plywood from the lumber yard, so the cutting of the real thing will start soon --- I hope.  

The last pic shows where most of my spare time is going.

Pete


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## barnesrickw

That truck engine is never gonna fit.


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## apointofview

Its actually the one that came out.  The camera makes it look bigger than it is.  Its just a cute little 2.8 we are just gonna put in a fresh long block with the same displacement.


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## barnesrickw

I meant in the boat.


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## apointofview

Ahhhh, too bad I'm so slow !!!!  That is funny


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## apointofview

My progress has been slow but I have started forming the final hull in wood.  This has been slow going, I dont do much wood work and waiting on Titebond to dry is painfull !  I make a couple of parts clamp them up and walk away over and over. 

Anyway I have a hull and enough structure inside of it to be strong enough. I spend a lot of time staring at what I have trying to figure out where to place all the running gear.  Here are a couple of pictures of where it sits now.

There are two water tanks joined together with 1/2 cpvc that will connect to the water pump to feed the boiler.  below each engine is a condensation tank to catch exhaust water/oil and the cylinder drain water/oil.  Those tanks vent just ahead of the paddle at the water line and the primary exhaust pipes will exit straight up above the superstructure.  I want the steam exhaust to look like the picture of the real boat I included.

It took a long time to shim the engine mounts correctly to get them level and parallel to each other.  There is still a long way to go but progress is being made.

Pete


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## Herbiev

Very impressive craft. Can't wait to see it in action.


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## apointofview

Thanks !!

I have been slowly working on the boat when time allows.
The rudders are all hooked up and working.  I have brass tubes that act as bearings to hold the solid brass rudder shafts.  the two forward rudder tubes are one piece from under the hull to the top of the lowest deck to keep water from creeping up the shafts and sinking the boat.  I cross drilled and tapped the shafts for a 4-40 bolt that helps transfer the torque of the shaft to the wood.  I milled out the rudders to fit the shaft and the bolt and then encased everything in epoxy.  I hope that makes sense.  I went with model aircraft hardware for the linkage and just ran a die on the ends of the interconnecting brass rods.  I thought about milling out all that hardware out of aluminum, but this was quicker, and lighter and works great.  I am running up against a weight limit so every little bit helps.  

Here is a link to the video of them running by radio control.
http://youtu.be/WxlXVk7X_ds


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## apointofview

Here is 30 seconds of video showing the engines and paddle mounted up and running on compressed air. The throttles are now driven by a servo as are the cylinder drain valves and rudders and fwd/reverse. I just have the whistle left to hook up to the radio, but I think I am going to make another steam valve like the throttles use to run the whistle. The valve I have now was my first attempt and it is more of an on and off valve. I want better control to make the whistle sound rise and fall. This is about as slow as it will run smoothly, the axle driven feed pump boggs down the paddle on its pressure stroke which becomes more evident when the engine pressure drops any lower. I will fiddle with timing and valve openings to try to minimize the effect later. 

Pete


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3qJvai0cWo"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3qJvai0cWo[/ame]


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## Herbiev

I love it Pete. Great work.


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## barnesrickw

Wow. That is very impressive.


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## aonemarine

That is just too cool!


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## cwelkie

Very, very nice - I really like all the "moving bits".
This is coming along well - thanks for sharing it.


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## kno3

It runs and sounds like a clock 
Very nice!


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## apointofview

Thanks guys I really appreciate the great comments.  This project sure is harder than I thought it would be.  I didnt know there was so much to a little boat !
I'll keep up dating as things move along.
Pete


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## tms6401

What a fantastic project. I have had a quick read through of the whole thread.

Did you by chance make any drawings of the engine as you built it? If so, are they available anywhere. That is pure poetry in motion.

Cheers

Tom


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## apointofview

Thanks Tom !
Sorry but there arent any drawings for my engines, just a few sketches here and there when I had to make multiples of something.  I have looked back at the older sketches and I cant make heads or tails of half of them, but they made sense at the time.  I would just wing the parts as I went. I just tried to make the engines in the spirit of those old engines.

 I used a couple of drawings of a full scale steam engines to understand how they worked and were setup.  I found those here -  http://www.alaska.net/~rmorris/steamboat1.htm

I also ordered the book 'smoke ash and steam from this site for more info - http://www.islandnet.com/~westisle/History/horizeng.html 

These plans from Ageless Engines are of a similar style lever engine, but their engines are more complicated than mine because they went the extra step and included a steam cutoff mechanism like the full scale Mississippi Queen ran.  They even have castings for the paddle spokes.  
http://www.agelessengines.com/s-boat.htm

Last of all here is a video of the ageless engine on youtube - 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0OmPBQMUXU[/ame]


Hope that helps you a little.  I should have bought the plans for that engine, then maybe I wouldnt be 3 years into this build   

Pete


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## tms6401

Thanks for all the links and info Pete.

I will look into the plans.

Cheers

Tom


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## apointofview

Hey Guys, here is an update to the boat,
Since this project has turned into more of a woodworking project I am making the updates a little less frequent.  The hull build doesnt hold a candle to the fantastic things that are built on this forum.  Its fun but messing with pine and balsa sure is hard to be precise and get any kind of good finish compared to metal !

So I floated the hull again to nail down a water line I want.  Turns out I have 24 lbs of breathing room for decorations and superstructure.  It was in the water with everthing that will be needed to run, and then I carefully loaded up 'cargo' till it was sitting where I wanted ( that is what the picture of the cans and weights is about.  It took all that to sink it low enough ) .  It sits really low.  There is only 5/8 of an inch of what is called freeboard.  In other words a duck swimming by could swamp the boat !  because of this I added a 1/2 inch lip on the deck around the opening to the belly to cheat and give me a little more room for waves.  I will still have to only float this thing when its really calm.  








The superstructure is going to be more or less a shell to give the outward appearance of the boat I am patterning after.  I dont think I will add much detail in the inner portions of the deck. Maybe, I will have to build the outside and then stare at it for awhile. The whole superstructure will lift off in one piece to allow me to tinker with the steam plant and engines.  Building the upper portion of the boat involves lost of repetition.  Lots of post and railing to cut and line up.  The first level posts are just 3/8 square stock, but the next two levels have their posts turned with fancy profiles 48 of em on the second level alone. I carved on a piece of HSS to get a profile of what I wanted, trying to get close to the Disney boats posts.  I was able to dive into the wood with one plunge with the cutter.  Wood doesnt seem to chatter and let you know your screwing up it just blows apart all the sudden !  I found I had to go really slow and as the HSS cutter cut from the front I had to follow up on the backside with a file to shave down the little rings.  I had the HSS profile setup to do it all at first but the little rings kept peeling off.  I modified the HSS buy cutting the grooves for the rings deeper.  It worked out much better to let the file do the finish work on the rings by hand. 






















LONG way to go !
Pete


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## apointofview

Hey guys, its been awhile since I have updated this thread, but its kind of on purpose. I am just gonna do a few updates of the ship build because I still don't feel it fits the forum at least for every step, but I will keep adding here and there till its done.  Especially the day it floats ( or sinks  ) 
All the decks are built and I am close to being done with the railing all 148 posts with no two exactly alike due to the curves of the decks  !!  All that is left is bracing for the top level posts to duplicate the full size setup.  I cant do that quiet yet because the deck will have to be permanently glued down to the second level for those tiny braces to added.  I am keeping the levels separate until the painting is done.  There is no way to reach between decks to paint if they are all bonded together.
Next up is the bridge.  It is a nice change of pace.  Not to much to tell about it, it will be hollow to allow for the boiler chimney to pass thru it.  I don't know if I am going to put any detail in the wheel house or not.  I originally just wanted a hull to run the steam engine on the water with.  This has gotten a bit out of hand and is turning into a whole boat !!
Not sure if I can be done in time for Cabin Fever this year.  I didn't plan on how tedious this part of the build would be.  The time I get to play is hard to come by sometimes.
Pete


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## jschoenly

Awesome work!!!


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## Herbiev

Wow. A very majestic boat Thm:


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## barnesrickw

Beautiful.  Can't wait to see her steaming in the water.


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## apointofview

Thanks Guys !!
I can start to see the light at the end of this tunnel I got myself into.
I am really looking forward to seeing it 'steaming'  on the pond and not 'sinking' 
Pete


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## apointofview

A little more progress, this time on the smoke stack.  I used a 1.5 inch brass tail piece I found at Home Depot. Its chromed on the outside so I will have to rough that surface up for paint. I made the fatter parts of the pipe out of oak. I dont have brass tube that size so this is what I came up with. I glued several layers of board together and then turned them on my lathe to get the right look. The flared part of the stack was done with my mill and a ziz wheel. I marked off 30 degree increments and then rotated the tube and made a cut. The tapers were just eyeballed and shaped with a sanding disk. I bent the points around a dowel to get a good radius. I think it came out pretty good !
Pete


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## barnesrickw

Awesome detail.


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## apointofview

Its been awhile since I last updated because the wood work isnt really a good fit to this forum, but the completion of the whole machine fits !

Big day for me today, I put the boat into the test tank and ran it on air.  Everything went great, one problem with one of the cam push rods getting loose and water getting in the hull when the paddle runs in full reverse.  Other than that it floats exactly where it needs to with 5 lbs of ballast in the bow and she didn't leak a drop.  I didn't run on steam because the gas feed system isn't finished, but the full tank of fuel was on board.

The engines are running but they are not timed to my liking right now.  With a few tweaks to the cams and the throttle valves it should get smoother like it ran on the bench.

Still have a few details to finish out like a servo mount for the whistle valve and gas shutoff valve.  Wiring for the lights has a ways to go and leak check of the water supply tanks and pump.  I had to make an extension for the manual side of my boiler feed water pump because of my lack of planning.  When I extended to bow to get more buoyancy I forgot to check the clearance of the pump handle so when I remounted the pump I found I had no access to the handle with the extended superstructure in place.  Oops, well I have a handle mounted up on the bow now with a push rod under the deck to operate the pump.  The handle is removable when its not in use and its actually a better setup now.

I am sure there are a few other items that need completing that I haven't thought of too.

Getting a bit excited to see it out on the water on its own power !!

Video and pics of the day,

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQHisuJegus[/ame]















































Pete


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## barnesrickw

Beautiful boat.  A true work of art.


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## RonGinger

That is a fine model. Are you likely to bring it to the NAMES or Cabin Fever shows? Cabin Fever would be great because of the boat pond where you could run it. I would sure like to see it up close.


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## ozzie46

Very impressive looking  and running model. You did well.

Ron


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## apointofview

Thanks guys, its been fun building it but a lot more work than I originally thought it would be !  I started out just with wanting to build the engines, but once they were far enough along to see they would work I thought running them in a boat would be neat.  I had no idea at the time what that little whim would get me into 

As far as hauling this boat out to a show, I have been shooting for getting it up to the Cabin Fever show this January. I don't know if I can get her done by then, but my wife thinks I will.  So much so she has booked our room and looking for stuff to see in the area and on the way up there.

NAMES doesn't allow running on steam so I wont go there, its not cheap to get to these shows living way down in Georgia, and not being able to run her would put a damper on the fun.

Pete


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## charlesfitton

Amazing -  great project.

(did you sneak a little "get home" motor in there?)


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## apointofview

charlesfitton - yep...good eye, there is a jet drive setup made from part of a pvc drain trap from home depot and a plastic three blade propeller running on a brass rod in a close fitting brass tube. There are so many reasons the paddle might quit turning while the boat is out of reach so this seemed like a good backup. I am going to add a deflector to the exhaust to direct the water down a bit, because as it sits the water column hits the paddle buckets pretty hard ( it even turns it slowly ) and it seems to make it a lot less effective.
Sure is funny that just that little electric motor and prop moves that whole boat pretty well and is a whole lot less complicated than the steam system 

It doesnt do it with much style though....
Pete


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## apointofview

The day finally arrived !  Lots of work here and there chasing down gremlins and bad initial designs on my part to get to this day.  

Everything went great it didnt sink, burn, or break down !!

The boat by the numbers works out like this :  
47lbs, 6ft long, 18 inches wide, 27 inches tall.  A 30min boiler firing and run consumes almost 1/2 gallon of water, burns 4oz of propane, produces 8oz of oil/water mix in the condensation tanks.

It is super quiet, all you hear is the paddle hitting the water and a little bit of the steam exhaust. ( most the noise in the videos is a road nearby )

I carried a block of foam on the bow that had 80lb test fishing line on a reel attached to heavy structure on the boat.  The idea was that the foam would float in a sinking event bringing the reel of line to the surface for a recovery.

Forgot a fire extinguisher that day but didnt need it 

The picture with the big plume of steam on the right side oops i mean starboard side of the front of the boat is the 40psi relief valve blowing. The backup 42psi relief valve exits forward over the bow to let me know which one opened. If the second one goes its time to shutdown it should never hit the higher valve.

Pete



Video - https://youtu.be/BSn42yYE9_A
Video - https://youtu.be/mG-1L4AHjOU


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## Cogsy

Extremely cool and beautiful work. I doubt I'd have the courage to risk such a masterpiece on the water but it's obviously built to be enjoyed. Congrats!


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## RonGinger

WOW! That is spectacular. great job. It runs at a nice slow speed, very realistic looking.


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## pickleford75

That is a thing of beauty..... congrats on a very nice build!


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## Blogwitch

Fantastic work there Pete.
It is such a shame all your hard engineering work is covered up when running, but of course there is always the WOW factor when you take the superstructure off.

John


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## Swifty

Amazing model, the detail is incredible. Mickey Mouse is a nice touch.

Paul.


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## apointofview

Thanks for the kind words !

Cogsy - Yep it was terrifying to send it out on the water, This little pond is only 8 ft deep supposedly but the thought of sinking was in my mind the whole time.  The other biggie was fire.  It had a small fire during bench running that I got out fast, but way out on the water with a pound of propane, it would take awhile to get it back to put it out and that dry wood would burn nicely i bet. With all that I _had_ to float it for my own sanity, It had to work at least once to make it successful in my mind.

RonGinger - I was actually running it faster than it could because that made the exhaust look better under a little more power.  I had thought about somehow adding drag to the system to get more pressure in the exhaust yet keep the paddle slow.



pickleford75 - Thanks, I am really happy with the results.  I am no scale boat builder though.  Looking around the net at pictures of boats guys have built is really amazing. I wanted just enough to look nice but the whole goal was to make the engines do their job with some style.

John - Yep it is hard to see but on a bench raised up you can actually see quite a bit because it is so open.  I deviated from the original full scale boat back in the engine area because I wanted to see the engine better.  The Disney boat has solid walls on the aft section of the lowest level, I just continued the post and rails the full length.


Paul - Thanks, the characters were actually my wife's idea.  She even found the safari versions that fit the feel of the boat perfectly.

Pete


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## tms6401

A wonderful end to an incredible build. That is a job well done for sure and an accomplishment you can be extremely proud of.

Tom


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## ozzie46

Fantastic job. 
Some of you may remember Mickey Mouse actually started life as Steam Boat Willy. Seems as thou he returned to his roots.

 Ron


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## bouch

apointofview said:


> The day finally arrived !  Lots of work here and there chasing down gremlins and bad initial designs on my part to get to this day.
> 
> Everything went great it didnt sink, burn, or break down !!



Wonderful work!  Very jealous!  Have LOTS of fun with it!

Mike


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## SilverSanJuan

Outstanding, Pete!  She looks absolutely amazing!  Congrats on your maiden voyage. 
Todd


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## apointofview

Thanks guys, its a big relief to have it done.  This project ran so long it felt like it would never get done for awhile there.

What really got it finished was committing to taking it up to Cabin Fever this January.  I don't recommend setting a deadline on a hobby, it can take some of the fun out of it, but this time it was worth it.  

On the subject of Cabin Fever does anyone know what type/size/thread pitch of fittings they provide for guys that want to run their displays with compressed air ?  I am driving up from Georgia and I want to show up properly prepared.  I do plan on running it in the pond with the boiler a few times, but the rest of the time I would like it to chug along on the bench with air.

Pete


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## apointofview

We headed out to the pond this evening and set up just as the sun went down.  I was hoping for a little cooler air to show more steam, but it was a lot more comfortable at 50 degrees !

I move the fuel tank to the aft part of the boat, it was forming ice on the tank and supply lines when it was up in the bow.  Back near the engines its much warmer and there is more air flow, and that made the gas pressure much more stable.

Pretty strange not being able to see the shore, or any thing around the boat.

Everything worked great, next run will be at Cabin Fever in Pennsylvania. 
I dont want to push my luck and sink it before the show 

Pete

Videos - 

https://youtu.be/dJWOA6ZYheI

https://youtu.be/emIwj3BG1a0


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## ozzie46

I believe the night shots are more impressive than the daytime ones.  Great job.

  Ron


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## barnesrickw

Just beautiful.  I've been showing my Facebook friends who are not part of this forum, and they are blown away.


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## Herbiev

Just magnificent


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## apointofview

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to let me know you like my project, especially when I see the fantastic builds I have that are on this forum.  This group has been a real big help in pulling this off.  By seeing how others make these great machines I have learn a lot.

Pete


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## tms6401

You need to be very proud of this project. I can think of only one word to describe these last night pics ... Stunning!

Tom


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## apointofview

Hey guys I got to go to Cabin Fever in PA this past weekend.  What a great event, it is impossible to take in all the workmanship that was on display everywhere I looked !! What a great group of folks to talk to !!!!!!

My boat did great ! It didnt sink, and the machine didnt experience any failures the whole day.  I wasnt able to stay for Sunday because I had to get back down to Georgia to work, but that one day sure was fun !!

Here is a quick video from that day - 

https://youtu.be/mSfmBgwVGjc

Pete


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## RonGinger

I saw the boat, but never got to meet Pete. It is such a great weekend, it really ought to last all week! The boat up close is as great as it looks in all the photos, very happy I got to see it.


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## doubletop

Pete

From the I've been lurking in the background from time to time watching the progress of this build. I must admit I've missed a bit recently but just took a look today to find this fantastic result.

Every steam engine needs a boiler and when it then does something real even better!

Congratulations on an outstanding job

Pete


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## apointofview

RonGinger - Sorry I missed you, it would have been nice to talk to you in person. I was next to the boat most of the day, but I went out one time trying to see all the other items on display ( impossible to see them all by the way ), that must have been when you came by the table.

Pete - Thanks, making the engines run well on steam was a bit harder than I expected, at this point my engines run much better and smoother on steam than on air.  The steam expands so much better, the water makes things a little slicker and the hot engine is a little looser than when cold.

Pete


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## doubletop

apointofview said:


> .
> 
> Pete - Thanks, making the engines run well on steam was a bit harder than I expected, at this point my engines run much better and smoother on steam than on air.  The steam expands so much better, the water makes things a little slicker and the hot engine is a little looser than when cold.
> 
> Pete



Exactly - all my steam engines have their own boilers, otherwise they are just air engines and completely miss the point.

In the early days, (apart from its availability to you) I did wonder why you were using aluminium for the construction, . In the end it turned out to be an inspired choice as the final result could have been very different if you'd used steel.

Pete


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## apointofview

Thats got me curious, what would steel changed other than weight ?


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## doubletop

apointofview said:


> Thats got me curious, what would steel changed other than weight ?



Exactly, the weight. As you were modelling to a prototypical design it would have been 'normal' to use similar materials to the original, e.g steel. But you used aluminium and saved a lot of weight that would have been at the back of the boat, having more displacement, possibly needing a bigger boat so it floated at the correct depth and more bow ballast to get it to sit flat.

Pete


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## apointofview

yep weight began to really get tight, there is 8lbs of brass in the bow to get her level and once its fully loaded I have very little freeboard, but it looks scale to me.

Steel is a good bit harder for my skills and equipment to handle too !


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## doubletop

apointofview said:


> .....
> 
> Steel is a good bit harder for my skills and equipment to handle too !



Pete

It looks to me like you've got the skills now. 

I kept a away from steel in the early days but then came the point that I had bite the bullet and work with it more and more. It wasn't as difficult as I had anticipated. Sharp tools and  leaded steel machines easily, if you don't plan on welding it.

Pete


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