# Lister Diesel engine build



## nowramfg (Aug 6, 2013)

I was "taken" by an article in M.E. written by a fellow Australian, on his build of a scale Lister 6/1 diesel, c/w diesel pump and injector. I started out by trying to use the drawings in ME, but they were lacking in some details, and were contradictory in some dimensions. I finally got enough details together to draw up a crankcase and cut all the parts out on a waterjet. I must add that I work as a programmer/ operator for a waterjet company here in Vancouver BC Canada.
I have been cetailing the build on another site, of which I notice some members here are also members there.
I have uploaded most of the pics from my build so far.If some of you would like a blow by blow description from day 1, I can try and do that.


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## radial1951 (Aug 6, 2013)

nowramfg said:


> I was "taken" by an article in M.E. written by a fellow Australian, on his build of a scale Lister 6/1 diesel, c/w diesel pump and injector. I started out by trying to use the drawings in ME, but they were lacking in some details, and were contradictory in some dimensions. I finally got enough details together to draw up a crankcase and cut all the parts out on a waterjet. I must add that I work as a programmer/ operator for a waterjet company here in Vancouver BC Canada.
> I have been cetailing the build on another site, of which I notice some members here are also members there.
> I have uploaded most of the pics from my build so far.If some of you would like a blow by blow description from day 1, I can try and do that.


Hi Patrick, I'd be interested to see your Lister progress for sure. You could post a link to the other site in the mean time (or pm me)... I'd like to see it.
Another Aussie with 10 grandkids from 3 daughters, cool lol.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
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## nowramfg (Aug 6, 2013)

Ross, good to hear you are interested. All the pics from the "other" site are in my album here.
I have 11 grandkids now, another granddaughter a few months ago. That makes 2 girls and 9 boys.
45th wedding anniversary last Saturday. I spent some time down your way in singleton about 44 years ago...doing some nasho.


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## Herbiev (Aug 6, 2013)

Hi Patrick. I too would love to see your Lister build. Great work horses.


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## nowramfg (Aug 6, 2013)

This is the Lister mounted in the Hercus being "run-in"


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## nowramfg (Aug 7, 2013)

This is a pic taken tonight, Tuesday Aug 6.Pardon the poor iPhone pic quality.


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## nowramfg (Aug 9, 2013)

Assembled and fitted a flywheel to the Lister. makes it easier to rotate.


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## radial1951 (Aug 10, 2013)

nowramfg said:


> Assembled and fitted a flywheel to the Lister. makes it easier to rotate.



Hi Patrick
Congratulations on No.11, that's a team! Family days are great when all the cousins get together. 

The water jet came in handy again I see. My son-in-law also programmes a water jet cutter not far from here... Did you turn the flywheel on the Hercus?

In what issue of Model Engineer mag was the engine detailed? Am I right in assuming the engine is about 12" high, flywheel 8"dia ?

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
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## Jasonb (Aug 11, 2013)

The series started in issue 4448 January 2013 and we are upto part 11, probably another 5 parts to go.

Flywhels are about 6"

There is a guy here who is doing some castings if you don't want to fabricate and have deep pockets

http://www.2lw.co.uk/


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## Generatorgus (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi Patrick, Your Lister is looking good.
What scale is it?
Is the injector system fuctional as in high pressure and able to atomize fuel for diesel combustion.
I collect real size smaller liesels such as the Lister CS and have always thought it would be nice as a model.

GUS


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

I think it is 1/4 scale more or less. It does have the injector pump and injector, which I am about 70% of the way through. The hope is that it will run on a mixture of kerosine and ether. I hope to test the pump and injector this week/weekend.


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

The build started with my interest in this particular engine because of my knowledge of its workings gained when I was a teenager working after school for my father, in the engine reconditioning shop he managed in Nth. Queensland Aus. 
I helped pull a few apart and reassemble them. 
I was(am) building a steam locomotive from ME as well, and thought that I would just draw up the Lister crankcase and see if it could be fabricated as a future project. Well after trying to draw it and finding lots of dim,s missing in the mag, then having them sent to me by the designer/builder George Punter, I drew up some pieces and cut them out on a waterjet.


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

I must say that JasonB has been instrumental in garnering info from George and ME during this build.  
As you can see the base I drew is 4 7/8" exc. the 1/4" base, so it was 5 1/8" incl. the base. I used the 2" back/oil sump plate as the starting piece, then added the 2 sides, then the base.
I TIG welded the 1/8" plate cheek plates to the sides first, and then straightened them with an alum headed mallet!. Everything was easily aligned as all the holes were precision cut on the waterjet. The cuts were also very "square" so elaborate jigging was not required.
After tacking all pieces together, and checking squareness, it was TIG welded fully.
I used a 1/16 Tungsten and 75A DC. 





















View attachment Crankcase sides .pdf


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

These are the cheek plates and front cover pieces from 1/8" MS plate.
The first crankcase I made had 8 bolts holding the front cover, it should only have had 4 so I remade the crankcase. The idler gear shaft was also incorrectly located, so it was easier at that point to make a new case. The new case is shown all ground up and smooth. 

View attachment Crankcase doublers.pdf


View attachment Crankcase base.pdf


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

All the fasteners are metric SS hex head bolts wherever possible that I purchased about 10 years ago from Fuller Metric here in Van. BC.
The case was clamped down to my First mill/drill and a flycutter was used to face the base off, then it was reversed and the base was clamped down to face off the cyl mounting face.
I then rotated it and laid it on its side, and used scrap anything to prop it up so I could machine the side bearing housing faces and line bore the bearing and cam locating bores.


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## johnny1320 (Aug 12, 2013)

Nice build, I like how the case is welded together then machined


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

I decided that the crankshaft should be next. I redrew it to workable sizes for me, 1/2" shaft with a 9/16' crankpin dia. We had cut some 5/8" T1 (100,000psi Tensile) plate here, and there was enough left over for me to cut out a blank.
I left some steps at the end to use as holding lugs and for the live center.
I laid it on a granite block, scribed a line up 5/16" flipped it and checked for 5/16 again, then found the center of the shaft blank and scribed it onto the center line of the plate. I then used a digital caliper to mark a point 17mm(.67) from the shaft c/l. I then used a center drill and drilled the 2 positions for my live center. Did the same on opp. end.
Put the blank in the 4 jaw and live center, used a dial gauge to get the "4 points" close to the chuck as close as possible to being true with the center, and proceeded to machine the throw.After the throw was to .5625 dia. and polished with 400 W&D, it was taken out, repositioned and a bearing shaft was machined to .500" dia. I then took it out, cut off the lug, flipped it around, put the machined shaft into a collet chuck and machined the other shaft using a center. 











View attachment crankshaft machining.pdf


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

Next on my agenda was the bearing housings. I cut them from 1" 6061 T6 Alum. I purposely made them so I could hold them in a 3 jaw for machining. The machining was a simple job, except for the fuel pump and oil pump mounts. That housing was a combination of lathe, mill, file and Dremel. 

View attachment Bearing housing blanks.pdf


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## nowramfg (Aug 12, 2013)

The connecting rod was a fairly simple piece. I cut it from 6061-t6 Alum. The cap was drilled and the rod was threaded 3mmx.7. I drilled and reamed the big end and the pin end. It was setup in the 4 jaw and the tapered shaft was machined.The flair from the arm into the big end was filed and smoothed. I then drilled the rod and tapped the cap 4mm. I had not noticed that you cannot assemble it into the engine when the thread etc. is the other way!
The parts for the water jacket were cut and assembled and welded. It was then setup in the 4 jaw and the faces machined, and the sleeve recess was machined. 
Dura-Bar was used to make the cylinder barrel, with the OD and the step made to suit the water jacket machining. 











View attachment cyl barrel parts.pdf


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## Generatorgus (Aug 13, 2013)

Patrick, this is a very interesting build.  I love those old Listers.
  Nice welding and machine work.
GUS


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## nowramfg (Aug 13, 2013)

Thanks Gus, they always intrigued me too. 
I finished off the injector parts last night. Now to see if it works.
I know it is out of sequence for the build log.


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## nowramfg (Aug 13, 2013)

I guess I made the piston and gudgeon pin next. The 1st piston was destroyed in a machining accident!! the 2nd one is in use. I made it the "old fashioned" way, just took a piece of 6061 bar stock machined it to dia. + a bit, machined the skirt recess, then took the piece to the mill and milled out a slot for the conrod. making sure that it was centered and of enough depth to clear the little end, but not too deep as to weaken the crown.
I then returned it to the lathe, finished off the O.D. and cut the ring grooves. Before parting the piston off the stock, I set it up in the drill and drilled and reamed the pin holes to .188.
The gudgeon pin was made from .188 dia. drill rod, which I drilled 3/32 thru, parted to length and dressed the ends. The buttons were machined from brass rod.
I used some more of my 1.25dia Dura-Bar to make the piston rings. I machined the ID first, then the OD to exact size of bore. I parted them off at 1mm each x 6, (2 spares). I made up a mandrel to set them on, and dressed each side on some 400 W&D paper to take the burrs off from parting. The split was accomplished by scoring across the ring with a small (3") 1/2 round file.


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## nowramfg (Aug 13, 2013)

So now I was at this stage. The crankcase, crank, rod, piston, cylinder liner and waterjacket were mostly done. 
This project, which if you have read all my dribbles, had now taken over my whole home life. The "EMMA" was just sitting scowling at me because of the loss of attention.
Back in my younger motorcycling racing/riding days in Aus., we used modify the stock cams by welding and hand grinding the profiles to a "better" timing event, more lift,duration etc. I thought that for the Lister I would test my skills again. I machined up a blank with 2 cam discs, and the shaft all as 1 piece. I then drew out the cam profile/s and cut them from 1/8" plate. I used these as templates to grind the profiles.


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## nowramfg (Aug 13, 2013)

The interesting part came next. 
The gear drive had to be made and installed. I programmed the gears on the waterjet to be cut from aluminum to test out the idler location. I fitted the crank gear with some loktite, then fitted the cam gear with a tight push fit and made up the idler pin. All going well, so far. 
I machined up the idler gear to suit the pin, and fiddled around with getting it to fit the crankcase with enough clearance that the crank webs wouldn't smack the end of the shaft. I did this without the crank or the camshaft fitted so that I could get my aged fingers in there and manipulate things.
So I put the crank in, put the cam in, and guess what, the idler center was in Russia when the other 2 gears were in Antarctica. A lot of head scratching later, I decided the only way was to plug the hole in the crank case and redo it. Finally I had a cam drive that worked. it was a tad (!!) noisy, but was OK. see the first pic below.


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## nowramfg (Aug 13, 2013)

OK, that works, now onto brass gears for the final assembly. These were made same way. but with way more care, some finesse with a very small oval file, and I had 3 gears that meshed well.
So I thought that I would just see how well the cam timing could be made with my gears, and maybe make some marks to facilitate the final assembly.
To my utter consternation, I, the master engine builder, mechanical designer etc. etc. had completely botched the cam gears. I had the 17T on the crank, check, the 28T on the cam,......WHAT!!!!! and the idler was the 34T. Great cam timing that gave me.:wall:
No wonder the idler didn't fit on first install.
fill in new hole redrill and tap through 2 plugs now....grrrrrrrrr.
Got it all done and running, a little slack in the crank to idler, but not too bad.


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## Teza (Aug 14, 2013)

Love your work Patrick, glad to see I'm not the only one who measures twice, gets it wrong both times and ends up with multiple redoes. If at first you don't succeed keep messing it up till you fluke it
Cheers Terry


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## nowramfg (Aug 14, 2013)

Pic of the piston and pump that I "overmachined/handled"


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## nowramfg (Aug 14, 2013)

The cam followers and guides were the next logical pieces to attack. The ME drawings seemed OK for the length of the units, but I made the diameters to suit the holes in the crankcase. These were straight turning and drilling/reaming jobs so no dramas were experienced.
I opted out of the Lister retaining plate double fork arrangement, and subbed a button head 3mm screw as the retainer.


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## nowramfg (Aug 15, 2013)

I attacked the head next. I cut 1 from a piece of steel that we had, took it home and proceeded to machine it as per the ME drawings. I cut it as per the ME drawings. Guess what,, the machining drawings were based on a 50mm square head, the cut drawings showed a 55mm x 50 mm head. I scrapped that 1 and cut 1 from 6061 Alum. In the parts pic attached you can see the steel head in the background.
I decided that since I was not using C.I. for the head, I should make up some brass inserts that would serve as the valve seats and guides. I made them a tight press/loktite fit into the head.
Seeing as I work on a RoushYates powered 360 c.i. Sprinter, I have access to some used titanium bolts now and then. I decided to try and make the valves from a couple of 1/4" dia Ti. bolts. I tried one and it works well.


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## nowramfg (Aug 15, 2013)

At this point in construction I basically had all the "big" pieces semi-finished to how I was going to be making them, now it was getting down to the fiddly bits, the pumps and injector.
I had decided to start painting some bits too. The colour is not what I wanted, and all will be painted again later anyway.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 15, 2013)

Very nice work Patrick. I know very little about diesel engines, but you seem to be making constant progress. I have read that diesel engines don't scale well, but then I have read a lot of stuff that was proven wrong. Good luck with the build, hope you end up with a good runner.--Brian


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## nowramfg (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks Brian, you will all know how it goes, or doesn't!!!
The pump and injector have me concerned. The pump should be OK, but the injector is an unknown quantity at this time.


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## nowramfg (Aug 16, 2013)

The oil pump looked like the lesser confusing item, so I tackled that next. My original attempt didn't work out well at all, caught on the tool and dislodged itself out of the 3 jaw. a bit of re planning later, a piece of 3/8" dia. brass was machined for the barrel and drilled to 5/32 bore. I them took a pieceof 1/4" dia brass, cut 2 pcs to 3/4" long, drilled them thru on the lathe to 3.2mm. Two recesses were milled 1/4" dia into the side of the barrel to align with the mounting holes in the crankcase. I then used my discarded side plate from my first crankcase and some shims as the jig to solder the 3 pieces into 1 oil pump main body. A P&M research 3/16" Tee was then modified slightly and drilled etc to be used as the oil outlet valve. It was then soldered onto the side of the housing to complete the pump body.
The ME details on the inlet and outlet valves make no sense whatsoever. By looking at the cross section You could tell what was intended so I went that way.
I used some 1/8" dia balls that i found in the shed as the valves, and 5/16 brass hex was used to make all the fittings. The body was reamed to 3/16, and a piece of 5/16 dia. SS was used as the plunger.
The inlet of the pump was inserted into some oil, the plunger actuated, and voila, oil emerged out of the outlet. Squirted actually;D


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## mu38&Bg# (Aug 16, 2013)

Diesel injection engines don't scale well due to the injector parts and resulting spray patterns for cylinders of less than 50-80cc. There are a few examples of small model injected engines online. This planset is one of the most recent.

Greg


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## nowramfg (Aug 16, 2013)

dieselpilot said:


> Diesel injection engines don't scale well due to the injector parts and resulting spray patterns for cylinders of less than 50-80cc. There are a few examples of small model injected engines online. This planset is one of the most recent.
> 
> Greg


What chance do you give it of working Greg?
Is it the injector spray pattern that is problematic or quantity,? both?
The injector actually injects into a sphere shaped cavity, which has a 2 x 3 miniscule slot into the head to piston space. I guess the combustion takes place there and transfers thru...It is all a little weird to me.
I am all eyes and ears to any suggestions.


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## mu38&Bg# (Aug 16, 2013)

The video of this engine shows it running. I think you posted it elsewhere. The ether in the fuel is what I don't like that engine knocks like crazy, but poor atomization can cause the same thing. I think it will run but the pump can't be leaky so that it give a sharp high pressure pulse. I have no idea what the injector looks like in this model. I do have the drawings for "The Dux" 10 cc diesel from SIC, but I don't think I've seen mention of more than a couple being built. That injector isn't much more than an orifice.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvSAnpn_YHw[/ame]

This is the engine the plans are based on?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXzqGHn0CDY[/ame]


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## mu38&Bg# (Aug 16, 2013)

That combustion chamber is the typical indirect injection design of year prior. Only recently have small diesel engines turned to direct injection.


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## nowramfg (Aug 17, 2013)

Yes that is the one that is being published in ME and that I am building.


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## ShedBoy (Aug 19, 2013)

Just read this from the start, I don't get on here enough lately. I really like the fabricated crankcase, some paint and filler and you will never be able to tell. I am looking forward to seeing this one run.

Brock


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## nowramfg (Aug 24, 2013)

I have been busy with work and family the last week or so and have not done too much, but, I have the next week off so maybe we will see some more progress.


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## nowramfg (Aug 27, 2013)

It is about time to continue with this. 
The fuel pump is a very complex, for me!, piece to make. I hacked it out of a piece of brass bar, and added a piece as required. The drilling, cross drilling and ball valves were a test of my skills. I did OK, except that when assembled it did not work very well. I discovered just last night that I had made the piston shaft about .040" too short. I made a new one and it now works 
The Ti valves have been fitted, and lapped in after numerous tries!. The rockers were cut from 1/2" MS plate and hand filed to shape. The rocker shaft is a piece of 1/8" dia drill rod, drilled each end for split pins.


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## nowramfg (Aug 31, 2013)

The fuel pump now works well, maybe too well! I do not have any way of removing excess fuel, as the bleed off valve that I have on the pump does not seem to do anything. I will have to try and fix that. 
The injector appears to work, it does spray a little bit of fuel.
I have timed the cam, a few times, with my timing disc that I drew on AutoCAD. The timing events follow what is a std. Lister cam timing. The injector is set to 20d BTDC.


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## nowramfg (Sep 1, 2013)

I have pulled it all apart. 1 of the head studs stripped out of the crankcase, so I figured it is time to strip it down, detail everything, do the little things that I had left for "later". 
The studs were tapped 3/16-32, so I now have them at 10-32, and the crankcase also. I know that there is little to no difference in theory, but the studs were a "loose" fit before. now they are correct.
I am rebuilding/modifying the fuel pump to allow a bleed off of extra fuel.
New rings will also be made, as the first ones seem to have broken in, and worn out!


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## nowramfg (Sep 1, 2013)

I was fortunate enough to be sent a Lister piston casting from the UK. I machine it up on a mandrel, but when I was removing it from the mandrel, the skirt broke off at the lower oil ring groove.
This is a pic of the old piston and the new one, which I am going to use. I made up new rings also.
Eagle eyes will see that I have the piston mounted backwards in the last pic. The new tie rods are also installed here. I did turn the piston around before I fitted the cyl.


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## nowramfg (Sep 1, 2013)

Seeing as I had put off making the lubrication tube/tubes till later, it was now later and time to do it. A piece of K&S 3/16 brass tubing was drilled, cut to size, and 2 pieces of 1/8 copper tube were soldered in and formed to shape. A piece of 5/16 brass hex was machined to make up the RH plug/mount, and a longer piece was machined up with a thru hole and pipe fitting for the LH side. The pipe assy is fitted into the crankcase, the RH plug is screwed in and slides into the end of the 3/16 tube. The LH fitting is then screwed in and inserted slightly into the opp end of the 3/16 tube. Small shoulders on each of the fittings clamp the tube into place.


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## nowramfg (Sep 2, 2013)

Modified the fuel pump and put it all back together today. All the pipes were fixed with compression fittings, all made as I went  Many pieces of 1/4 and 5/16 hex rod turned to chips there! Finished off the fuel tank, and piped the fuel bleed to the top.
Now the rocker cover needs to be finished, and the other flywheel and also the crankcase breather. I just finished the air cleaner/ air inlet before supper and it is now fitted.
So this is what it looked like before the air cleaner.


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## mu38&Bg# (Sep 3, 2013)

How does the pump vary injection volume?


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## nowramfg (Sep 3, 2013)

dieselpilot said:


> How does the pump vary injection volume?


Unfortunately it doesn't.
The bleeder screw on the side of the pump bleeds off what isnt required. This is the arrangement that George Punter used with a little success. He acknowledges that it isn't ideal, nor perfected.


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## nowramfg (Sep 12, 2013)

Sorry that I have not posted much lately. I have been doing things, just they seem to be the same things over and over. I have built a new injector, and am now rebuilding/modifying the pump. I have built 2 new pistons for the pump, to tighten it up so as to get "lots" of pressure, but I now realize that my pump is maybe too big in capacity for the engine. The original model had a 4mm bore, mine has a 4.8mm. That is an increase of about 44% in volume! Damn math bites you in the butt.:hDe:
I will make a new pump with a 1/8" bore, and see how that goes. 
This is the new injector in pieces.


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## radial1951 (Sep 12, 2013)

nowramfg said:


> Sorry that I have not posted much lately. I have been doing things, just they seem to be the same things over and over. I have built a new injector, and am now rebuilding/modifying the pump. I have built 2 new pistons for the pump, to tighten it up so as to get "lots" of pressure, but I now realize that my pump is maybe too big in capacity for the engine. The original model had a 4mm bore, mine has a 4.8mm. That is an increase of about 44% in volume! Damn math bites you in the butt.:hDe:
> I will make a new pump with a 1/8" bore, and see how that goes.
> This is the new injector in pieces.


Thanks for the update, interesting project. You mentioned that the timing events follow standard Lister cam timing. Would you mind posting the valve timing numbers? Do diesels have different valve timing requirements to petrol engines?
Looking forward to seeing the run video.

Thanks and Regards, RossG
radial1951
_______________________


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## nowramfg (Sep 12, 2013)

Standard Lister 6/1 timing.
Inlet opens 5d BTDC
Inlet Closes 15d ABDC
Exhaust opens 45d BBDC
Exhaust closes 5d ATDC
I found this on a site for Listers.


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## radial1951 (Sep 13, 2013)

nowramfg said:


> Standard Lister 6/1 timing.
> Inlet opens 5d BTDC
> Inlet Closes 15d ABDC
> Exhaust opens 45d BBDC
> ...



Hi Patrick

Thanks for that. I have been collecting cam timing numbers for my next project.

There is such a huge variation in the numbers, both among the models and the full size engines. But how do I decide?   This engine will earn its keep in a plane, not just for occasional static display running. I can see what will happen, the cam drum will be the last part to be made, while I procrastinate about 1 degree here or there... 

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## nowramfg (Sep 18, 2013)

Been working on pump and injector and new head. I think the steel head will be a big help. The pump put out 50psi(3.5 bar) tonight, a long way off the 50 bar that was suggested as maybe being required.


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## nowramfg (Oct 16, 2013)

This is the new , new pump. It has a .125" bore, and the stroke is adjustable. 











View attachment NEW fuelpump.pdf


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## nowramfg (May 26, 2014)

Sorry I haven't been around for a while, but I sold my house and moved about 60 miles closer to the daughters and grandkids. I sold my lathe and milling machine, and am going to replace them with 2 new machines. I have to pick them up in the next week and get them installed and running. BusyBee Tools in Vancouver have the items I want and the deposit was paid a few weeks ago.


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## Phnug (Mar 28, 2017)

Hi, I'm starting one of these engines, early days yet, did you settle on a final pump/injector arrangement that worked? I would really appreciate any comment.
Thanks Ian


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## nowramfg (Mar 29, 2017)

No, after 3 attempts at getting an injector to work, I have just put it aside for another day.


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