# Indicator Holders and Such...



## mklotz

DI = Dial Indicator: plunger operates indicator needle to register motion of plunger.

Used to make direct measurements. A variety of tips are available...

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=327-2904&PMPXNO=22508034&PARTPG=INLMK3

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=605-4538&PMPXNO=943849&PARTPG=INLMK3

although you'll eventually want to have a 4-48 tap and die handy to make your own specialized tips and extenders - especially extenders. (A set of 1,2,4" extenders will get you any integer length to 7" - yes, binary works in the workshop.)

Some example tip uses...
ball tip - point contact on a rounded surface
flat tip - eliminate need to put DI exactly on center when measuring to a curved surface on the lathe
wire tip - to measure depths in narrow grooves or down small holes 

DTI = Dial *Test* Indicator: A repositionable arm operates the indicator needle to register small increments of motion on the dial.

The variable geometry of the DTI arm makes them generally unsuitable for making actual lineal measurements. As the name suggested, they're used more for comparative measurements such as aligning or tramming. DIs are used for actual measurement (although they can be used for comparison - as in centering work in the 4jaw).

Don't use aluminum rods. Aluminum bends and dents too easily. Steel is a better and cheaper choice. Rather than setscrews use a split clamp drawn together with a SHCS. It will hold the rod more securely and will not mar it. Don't sweat the rust. Don't wash the oil off your hands until you need to use the restroom.  The oil transfer will keep them from rusting.  

Think about how you will attach the DTI. A picture of your DTI and the dovetail attachments you have for it will be useful in this discussion.

The block-and-arm design you describe will be useful for tramming the head where you need some sweep but it may not be the best thing for "in-close" jobs like centering on a hole.
I have a simple design that I built a long time ago. I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow and put them up. Plus there's my magnetic design which you've seen.

Does your DTI have a pin mount in addition to the dovetails? If it does, a simple chunk that can be gripped in the chuck with a series of offset holes may be all you need.

Whatever you design, try to ensure that it doesn't take up much z-axis headroom.

More when you've digested what I've said here...


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> This thread is about making some adjustable clamps and rods. Primarily for holding indicators and the like. My first pressing need (aside from the aforementioned back problem) is to be able to do a better job of tramming my mini-mill.





> Simple? An obvious issue to me are the set screws. Over time they'll ruin the rods. But I may not care (at least initially) because usage should be low.
> 
> And gee...if I'm doing this...maybe some proper drawings would be good. What would anyone suggest as a freebie drawing software?



tram, tramming, indicator holder,

HERE For one version of a tramming tool.

Clamp type mount, more time to make but better in the long run.

Google's Sketchup is good for drawings or placing ideas upon paper. It made the flywheel to the left.

Funky version for the drill press, once in a while I try to drill a straight hole  Just a 3/4 inch round stock 'bout 6 inch long. Need a mirror to read the opposite side so a dual mount sounds better and perhaps easier all the time

And large garbage bag over shop tools keeps the dust off the workings


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## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Don't sweat the rust. Don't wash the oil off your hands until you need to use the restroom.  The oil transfer will keep them from rusting.



The hands!? :big:



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> A picture of your DTI and the dovetail attachments you have for it will be useful in this discussion.



Not the best...but for starting out it should be sufficient...









Sorry for the blurriness of the 2nd pic.
You can see the dovetail on the DTI...one on top and the other along the back. The 'holder's are 3/8" and 0.155" (I'm thinking 4mm?).



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> I have a simple design that I built a long time ago. I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow and put them up. Plus there's my magnetic design which you've seen.



Please do. I saw your magnetic design again tonight. I'm in the process of going through the 'launch engine thread' and picking out some learnings and ideas.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Does your DTI have a pin mount in addition to the dovetails? If it does, a simple chunk that can be gripped in the chuck with a series of offset holes may be all you need.



I don't know what a pin mount is unless it's the 'holders' I mentioned earlier. In which case...they're pin mounts.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> More when you've digested what I've said here...



Anybody got some tums?

I agree (of course I do) that steel rods would be better. Also split clamps. My only concern with split clamps (which I'm sure will have been addressed) is size. I'd like to keep the clamping blocks as small as possible.

Thanks Marv. I look forward to the pics.


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## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> For one version of a tramming tool.



I'll have to go back to that thread. It looks really great. I was surprised at some of the avatars and members. I hadn't seen them before. But the tramming tool looks very good. The only thing is...it requires two indicators and seems like a specialized tool. I suspect having two indicators isn't a big deal...I...the newbie...have a couple or three. Maybe the specialized tool isn't a big deal either. Just a bar of aluminum and some rod. And the importance of proper tramming probably warrants it. (Again, as spoken from a non-machinist.)



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> Google's Sketchup is good for drawings or placing ideas upon paper.



I think I've tried that. Might have been my own setup...but I had trouble. (Hm...I might be able to get something from a mechie at work. He owes me. "Never be the lendee...always the lender."...Rats. Shouldn't have said that...I owe big time to this forum.)[/quote]


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'll have to go back to that thread. It looks really great. I was surprised at some of the avatars and members. I hadn't seen them before. But the tramming tool looks very good. The only thing is...it requires two indicators and seems like a specialized tool.



Specialized, yes, for the mill. Two indicators so you dont have to crane the neck around to read the single gauge that presents its back side to you after the 180 tool rotation. So cure is, two dials giving both sides of center readings. Indicator prices run all over the board, again price them according to need, this is a hobby and regardless of price they do break.



> I think I've tried that. Might have been my own setup...but I had trouble. (Hm...I might be able to get something from a mechie at work. He owes me. "Never be the lendee...always the lender."...Rats. Shouldn't have said that...I owe big time to this forum.)



Sketchup is fairly easy to pick up. hass a little built in "Instructor" that explains what the icon do and associated hot key options. Not exactly a cad program, but it free.

I think that board is a sister board to here. many members are common to both


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## DavesWimshurst

Carl,
This may be a little more than you may want to tackle now but I have found this holder to be very useful on a small mill






It appeared in Machinist's Workshop April/May 2001. It requires very little extra room to use compared to the usual coax device

Here it is setup to center a round part under the spindle:





It is swept round the part rotating the spindle by hand.

Here it is used to check the parallelism of my vice, the spindle remaining stationary:






It can also be used to tram the spindle when extended. I use a flat plate to span over the table slots.
Dave


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## Seanol

Zee,
When you have the indicator in the spindle make sure you remove it when you are done. I turned the mill on, not thinking, and before I could hit the e-stop it went out to parts unknown. Sometimes I get so hung up on the adjustment that I forget the reason I'm there! 

This may not have happened to everyone but I bet I'm not the only one to send an indicator flying.

A tool I made for tramming was a piece of drill rod, .750 that fits in my collet, cross drilled .375. I cut a piece of bar stock to fit the hole and a bolt to go in the bottom of the drill rod to hold the .375 rod. I can extend my dial inicator out about 12 inches to sweep the far ends of the table. I attach my DI and take a reading to my left. I zero the indicator. I pull up on the rod so I don't hit the t slots and rotate to the same position on the right side. Since the DI is facing away I go around the table and read the DI. The change in reading is my out of tram. I adjust the head to half of the reading, rezero and check again.

Do this until the left and right agree. You are checking the spindle rotation to the mill bed. I hope this doesn't seem like "teaching my elders to suck eggs" but if someone had explained it this way I would have caught on quicker. I used to put a DI in the spindle and run the x axis all the way from one side to the other and this told me nothing!

When I am close I snug up the bolts and tap with a dead blow hammer. Watch out for final torque as you can move the head with bolt torque. (this applies to a bridgeport type mill. I don't know what adjustments you may have but the measuring is the same, rotation planar with the table).

Flycutting will really tell you the tram. When it is "on" you will get an overlapping or "moire" pattern on your work piece. If it is off you will only cut on one side or the other.

Hope that helps,
Sean


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## zeeprogrammer

Dave,

That looks pretty useful.

Looks like it mounts by the dovetail? (I hadn't noticed the bit of dovetail on that side of the DTI. Lesson: Carefully inspect everything about a new tool.)

You mentioned turning the spindle by hand. On my mini-mill, when I do that, you can feel a kind of 'cogging' action. I'm not sure that's the right term to use. The spindle wants to settle at a spot every few degrees. It made finding the center on my RT a little difficult.

Does anyone else have a mill that does that? Is this a problem I should be looking at?

Thanks Dave.

Sean,

You description of tramming is what I want to do.

I did the X table thing too. Luckily, I also realized 'huh?'. My next method was a 1-2-3 block and raising/lowering the head. My third attempt was taking a dial indicator mounting system (magnetic base) apart and mounting it on the head to be used similar to what you described. Better still...but not satisfactory. Hence I'm here.

Yes, from what I've read, flycutting seems to be a very good test. You might recall that I did a flycut on the Launch Engine project. That's what told me the tram was still off.

Thanks Sean.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> That looks pretty useful.
> 
> Looks like it mounts by the dovetail? (I hadn't noticed the bit of dovetail on that side of the DTI. Lesson: Carefully inspect everything about a new tool.)
> 
> You mentioned turning the spindle by hand. On my mini-mill, when I do that, you can feel a kind of 'cogging' action. I'm not sure that's the right term to use. The spindle wants to settle at a spot every few degrees. It made finding the center on my RT a little difficult.



A Sieg X2 type. Your mill looks like its spindle is gear driven, should be rather free turning. I see better with my ears than my eyes so without hearing what the mill sounds like when running first thought is tight gears, bearing issue. Also see a preload nut on the spindle assembly inside the housing. 'Fraid to say you may need to disassemble, clean, lube, and adjust the top end.



> You description of tramming is what I want to do.



Yup, your checking the sides of a triangle basically, Fixed length is the spindle axis, the deck plane and indicator point make the other two sides which vary in relationship to the out of level condition. Pick a point "A" on the deck and zero the dial. One triangle, rotate the spindle 180 degrees and if new triangle equals the first then the dial will be still at zero, if not then adjust as required to achieve equal triangles.

This is only good if the spindle does not follow a "S" pattern as it travels up and down (best I describe it) There is another method to check that the spindle follows axis within its travel but that is best left to someone with better writing skills. I'll only get you confused 

Little sketchup pic of Seanol's tram tool


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## mklotz

Bogs' two DI tramming device is way too difficult a project for a novice. Think through how that thing works and how it's calibrated and you'll understand that it requires some very precise machining to be a useful tool. Bogs has the skills to make it work but he's been at this since the early Jurassic. This isn't a project for Carl - at least not yet.

DaveW's offering (or something very like it) is much, much better. It's simple, rigid, requires no high precision machining, takes up very little headroom and capitalizes on the the style of DTI Carl owns to make the dial easily visible in all orientations. Plenty of swing for tramming the head yet it can get in close for centering small holes/cylinders. The only thing I would add to it is the ability to mount the DTI facing outboard for a little greater reach (maybe that's present in Dave's design - I can't tell from the photo.)

For mounting your DTI to the sliding bar that Dave shows, all you need to do is drill some holes in various orientations to accept one of your dovetail mounts, add a setscrew to lock it in place, and voila - no need to machine dovetails.

Carl, please notice that these devices need a spigot with stepped diameters for mounting in the mill. (You can see it in the pictures of my magnetic one. Dave's doesn't but I would add the feature if I were copying his design.) That's an important feature if you have collets for the mill. (Can't remember offhand if you do but, even if you don't, you will.) You don't want to be changing out collets every time you want to use this device. Since the most likely collets to be in place when milling match the common endmill diameters - 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 - you should make your mounting spigot to have those diameters.


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## Seanol

Foozer,
You nailed it. I haven't made a stepped arbor because I always seem to use a .750 collet!

That is definitely a good idea and it will help you hit those diameters in the late. Good practice.

Thanks for the idea Marv, and the requisite practice it will take...

Sean


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## zeeprogrammer

Foozer:

There's free turning and there's free turning. Too subjective for me to know. I'll try to take a video this evening for sound and action.

The 'S' pattern seems scary. If anyone has something on this...

Marv:

Re: two DI...I agree.

Any reason why I couldn't/shouldn't build something like Dave's but with the rods and clamping blocks I introduced the thread with? I think Dave's suggestion is great for 'close' work...mounting vise/RT, etc. But it doesn't seem to have the reach for tramming. Different lengths rods would give me different options.

In any case...you suggested using steel rather than aluminum. As one would expect...I have little knowledge here. You had mentioned in another thread that 1018 doesn't give the best finish but I don't think I'm looking for that here. Any other suggestions? Or better...point me to a thread or source that discusses metals. I also see that 12L14 seems to be popular.

Re: the stepped spigot...depending on the collet, wouldn't that limit the Z available? That is, a small collet would have more of the spigot sticking out? (And just how high should each step be?) What about 'removable' spigots of different diameters?

Let me know about the metal...I'd like to order some. I have a little time...need to sketch up what I think will do.

Thanks all.


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## mklotz

Yes, you could use your aluminum blocks and rods. I'd still like to see split clamps rather than setscrews for rigidity but it's your tool, make it to your specs. Again, the objective is to learn about design planning when building something from scratch. You'll find that tools, like engine parts, get rebuilt as your learning and sophistication matures.

Regular old CRS (1018) would be fine for this application. You won't be doing much milling on it - just clean up the ends. Dark, sulfurized cutting oil will improve the finish and the odor is real shop perfume - not as sexy as Hoppe's #9 but it will get you noticed. 

12L14 ('L' for Lead) contains lead which makes it machine like butter to a beautiful finish. Get some so you can hands-on experience just how nice it is to work with it. Its one drawback is that it rusts easily. Even here in semi-desert LA, I have to keep certain pieces well-oiled to prevent rust. 

Yes, the stepped spigot will eat up a little bit of z room using a small collet. I don't find it a problem on my mill but your situation may be different. Remember, this tool will (hopefully) never see any significant forces so the steps don't have to be that high - a light grip is all that's needed. IIRC, mine are 1/2".

If you're concerned, make a stepped spigot that screws into your DTI holder. If it turns out to be a problem, you can make dedicated, single diameter spigots that screw into the same threaded hole.

Preemptory hint: Now that you're wandering into the heady world of tool building, make a decision to standardize on a few screw sizes you will use. In the future you'll be happy to be able to synergistically pull a part off one tool and have it mesh with an existing hole on another tool. I use 4-40, 10-32 and 1/4-20 wherever the choice isn't driven by some other consideration. Painting the Allen wrenches that fit these sizes with a color code saves me lots of time finding the right wrench.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Foozer:
> 
> There's free turning and there's free turning. Too subjective for me to know. I'll try to take a video this evening for sound and action.



If your high/low lever, assuming its not a belt drive version has a neutral or will allow the spindle to rotate without engaging the gears try that, turn spindle by hand and see if the "cogging" goes away. The bearings should be of the sealed type, so that reduces the chip in bearing odds. Spindle bearing would really have to be preloaded to excess (as far as I can tell from the parts breakdown) to get the bearing to behave like you describe. Picture the race of the bearing having just a small defect. As the inner balls rotate around (room for remake here) the preload causes the smaller ones to 'bump' the defect. Would be an even spaced feel to it. May or may not make noise and the normal gear noise probably mask it over anyway. Dont worry about it to much. I replaced the bearings in my drill press with some of better quality for much the same "cogging" Actually getting off thread here but what the hey, can delete it later


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## ghart3

Another thanks to Dave for posting his dti holder.
Copied it.  Was able to grind a dovetail flycutter from old 2 flute end mill. Ground off of one flute and eye balled a dovetail on the other.  Took less then 2 minutes and got close enough to use on first try.


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## mklotz

DTIs, DIs and stuff...






On the top is the Chinese knockoff of the Zero-It along with a homemade dovetailed holder that accepts the cylindrical fitting (next to it) that screws into the indicator below.

Next below is a simple DTI holder I made early in my career - I had a lot to learn about tool design. It still has its uses but it's far inferior to the one above, my magnetic one and, especially, DaveW's pictured earlier in this thread. It's still useful for tramming the tailstock in the lathe. 

Below that is a commercial one (ENCO, IIRC) with a dovetail fitting that holds a DTI at any angle but lacks the ability to do large translational offsets.

Below that are three brass extenders for DIs (not DTIs). Each has a male 4-48 thread at one end and a female at the other. They can be used individually or ganged together in various ways to make a needed length. Very handy.

Below that is another brass extender with male threads at both ends made for some now-forgotten purpose. When making special points for a DI, it's easier to tap a hole than form a male threaded stud so having a male-male extender saves a bit of time.

Finally is a finger saver. I inherited it from a deceased machinist. It's nothing more than a long steel rod with finger clamps at both ends. It's used to hold cigarette papers or bits of shim stock in places where you don't want to (or physically can't) put your fingers. I use it often to zero an endmill onto a part when I don't want the mill to mar an already finished surface. Bring the endmill down on the shim stock and zero the 'z' axis DI with a suitable allowance for the thickness of the shim.


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## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Yes, you could use your aluminum blocks and rods. I'd still like to see split clamps rather than setscrews for rigidity


No no. Was just thinking rods and blocks...not necessarily type of blocks. I have to play with some designs.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Dark, sulfurized cutting oil will improve the finish and the odor is real shop perfume - not as sexy as Hoppe's #9 but it will get you noticed.



Fine. So long as it's not one of you. Someone needs to come up with a marketing scheme that shows guys who smell of this stuff are the cat's meow.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Now that you're wandering...



Uh oh.

So I'll order some steel tonight. Also some fastners...I have virtually nothing.

Foozer: No not off the thread...even though it's about 'Indicator Holders and Such..." it's really another learning thread (ha...all my threads are learning threads).

Here's some videos...

This one shows what I meant by 'cogging'. You can feel a definite 'cog'. I don't feel this on the lathe. But the lathe is belt driven and I haven't looked closely at the mill. I'm remembering other threads that talk about modifying this part of the mill (i.e. replacing the gears?).





Here's low gear...





Here's high gear...





Here's what seems to be neutral...(i.e. no engagement)...





My (inexperienced) guess is that I'm okay. That it's a matter of whether I want to do the mod. My understanding is that the gears may/will eventually break...that's when I'll do it.

ghart3: Thanks for the pics. Very helpful.

Marv: Thanks for the examples. And I really like the 'finger saver'.

Thanks all.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Foozer: No not off the thread...even though it's about 'Indicator Holders and Such..." it's really another learning thread (ha...all my threads are learning threads).
> 
> Here's some videos...
> 
> This one shows what I meant by 'cogging'. You can feel a definite 'cog'. I don't feel this on the lathe. But the lathe is belt driven and I haven't looked closely at the mill. I'm remembering other threads that talk about modifying this part of the mill (i.e. replacing the gears?).



That cogging is something loose in the head stock, sounds like its tapping the case. can hear it when you turn the motor on, starts as the tink tink and grows to a growl as the speed increases. has normal motor whine, the higher pitch even sound. Me I'd be taking that head unit down to the work bench (with a copy of the exploded parts list) and find that rattle before it finds you.
From the units HF 44991 PDF it looks to be a rather straightforward assembly. You should be able to verify the internals with little problem. Not much inside that moves around other than the Hi/Low mechanism. Almost sounds like it is the rattle, but. In any event a teardown, not a hard thing to do, will find it. The fixing pin is out? Right? 

I get a sound like that from the lathe when the backgear engagement pin comes loose. Cost me a backgear for not giving the sound it due 

HERE for a shot of the internals should be similar

Last edit  If you want to see what the machine is doing Stick a glass of water on the bed and turn the machine on. The various vibrations will leave ribbles on the water surface. The motor should leave a nice even pattern, smoother the motor the smoother the water surface. Something out of balance or knocking about will give you larger ripples, Plus it will tell you how well the machine is leveled by watching the center of the ripples dance around the center of the cup. If nothing else its cheap entertainment.


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## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Me I'd be taking that head unit down to the work bench (with a copy of the exploded parts list) and find that rattle before it finds you.



Whew...I was worried for a moment. I was trying to find 'Fixing Pin' and came across a table that called it out but the drawing next to it, didn't show it. I was about to ask what the heck it is. A few drawings later, I found it. The thingie (i.e. Fixing Pin) to 'lock' the spindle when tightening or loosening the draw bar. So yes...it was not in place. The spindle would not move unless you were thinking it wasn't fully seated. But no...it's sitting on the table.

So....I guess I'd better take the thing apart. I should get a better understanding of the equipment anyway. That's probably a weekend job. Thanks.

Just to be sure...you're thinking it should turn round-and-round just like the lathe's spindle? Pretty smoothly?

Thanks Robert.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> So....I guess I'd better take the thing apart. I should get a better understanding of the equipment anyway. That's probably a weekend job. Thanks.
> 
> Just to be sure...you're thinking it should turn round-and-round just like the lathe's spindle? Pretty smoothly?
> 
> Thanks Robert.



I would expect some gear noise, but thats a relatively even sound, a broken tooth on a metal gear might announce itself, but that "Tink" is hollering for attention. That doesn't belong there. By you video description you indicate a binding and then the tink sound. Its not in the spindle for the sound is the same in neutral.

Getting familiar with the internals is something your gonna have to do anyway, you can use the screwdriver to ear bit to locate the sound. Power off the mill, place one end of screwdriver (big end) to ear, turn spindle by hand and move tip of screwdriver around case to find the source. Stethoscope bit. 

One good thing about your video others here have the same or similar unit, you should be getting feedback on that sound soon enough. And here you thought turning metal was all that the hobby required 

Some assembly required, batteries not included


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## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Have one of those brains that sits outside the cave pondering till problem solved./quote]
> 
> I think you're right.
> 
> The more I play around with it...the more I'm beginning to think it's backlash. If you remember the 1st video, I get that for the full 360. The 'tink-tink' is one gear knocking up against the other. Both directions.
> 
> I know that some people have put in a mode to replace with belt drive. That's probably in my future too.
> 
> Thanks.


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## spuddevans

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> This one shows what I meant by 'cogging'. You can feel a definite 'cog'. I don't feel this on the lathe. But the lathe is belt driven and I haven't looked closely at the mill. I'm remembering other threads that talk about modifying this part of the mill (i.e. replacing the gears?).



Hi Zee, I've just watched all your videos and can assure you that the sound on your videos is completely normal. I have a X2 as well, and until I made and installed a beltdrive conversion mine sounded exactly the same, and had the same "cogging" or stepping effect when turning the spindle by hand.

I think the best thing I did to the mill was to convert it to belt drive, it is so much quieter and smoother, I cannot reccomend it enough to all X2 mill owners.


Tim


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## Foozer

spuddevans  said:
			
		

> Hi Zee, I've just watched all your videos and can assure you that the sound on your videos is completely normal. I have a X2 as well, and until I made and installed a beltdrive conversion mine sounded exactly the same, and had the same "cogging" or stepping effect when turning the spindle by hand.
> 
> I think the best thing I did to the mill was to convert it to belt drive, it is so much quieter and smoother, I cannot reccomend it enough to all X2 mill owners.
> 
> 
> Tim



Got to be kidding, gears tight enough to give a resist, no wonder the belt drive mod is so popular. That gear train noise would drive me crazy. But then plastic molded gears keep the cost down. Actually liking the looks of that little mill, might just get me one so I can chuck that Hi/Low fork to the bottom of a deep well


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The more I play around with it...the more I'm beginning to think it's backlash. If you remember the 1st video, I get that for the full 360. The 'tink-tink' is one gear knocking up against the other. Both directions.
> 
> I know that some people have put in a mode to replace with belt drive. That's probably in my future too.
> 
> Thanks.



Yup grabbed the kids laptop and found a hotspot. Tight gear engagement, I'd have a spare set of gears stashed away. Noise make heat, heat makes failure, failure makes empty bottle (or two) of tequila


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## zeeprogrammer

Tim...thanks very much. That takes a load off the mind. I have come across that mod several times now. I also want to do the column extension mod. Probably after the next project (or mill failure - whichever comes first).

Foozer...thanks.

Unless there's a good reason not to or people suggest otherwise, I think I'll rename this thread and restart the 'Indicator Holders and Such...'.

No complaint mind you...I think this was worthwhile.

What should I call it?
"Zee's Detour Number 1"? (In anticipation.)
"Zee's Problem That Wasn't Number 1"? (Again, in anticipation.)

Maybe just "X2 Spindle 'Cogging'"

Thanks.


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## AlanHaisley

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Marv:
> ...
> In any case...you suggested using steel rather than aluminum. As one would expect...I have little knowledge here. You had mentioned in another thread that 1018 doesn't give the best finish but I don't think I'm looking for that here. Any other suggestions? Or better...point me to a thread or source that discusses metals. I also see that 12L14 seems to be popular.



Carl,

I threw together a piece for tramming. I used 3/8" drill rod to fit my usual endmill holder, threaded one end and screwed it into a threaded hole in a piece of keystock. The end of the keystock was drilled through to let me bolt on an indicator that had a bolt flange on the back. It's not fancy at all and will be replaced with something with a bit more utility when I have time.

It turns out that drill rod doesn't want to rust very much. Also, keystock seems to be cadmium plated or something so it doesn't rust either. 

I knew that I didn't need perfection in squareness - just stiffness. I can sweep one side of the table to the other, all that I needed for tramming.

You mentioned at one point wanting a vise stop and were concerned about squareness, etc. I suggest making one twice. All it really requires is to force the same positioning of the subject pieces each time you clamp them. Cobble one together if needed; stiff enough to do the job. Later, Make one that you would be proud to show your friends. (The first one can help positioning for the second build.)

Alan


----------



## zeeprogrammer

AlanHaisley  said:
			
		

> Later, Make one that you would be proud to show your friends. (The first one can help positioning for the second build.)



Thanks for the vote of confidence...I was thinking 3 or 4 before I got to proud. :big:

Thanks for the comments on tramming. Maybe I'm going about this wrong...do I make a tool for tramming? Or a more flexible general purpose dial indicator holder system thingy. I was hoping for the GP but I'm having trouble finding examples.

That reminds me...someone (well I know who...but since it came in 'messages' I will maintain privacy) mentioned some Model Engineer Workshop articles and that these mags can sometimes be found at Barnes and Noble. Well BN is sufficient distance to take away from my hobby time so I wanted to subscribe. (I currently get Model Engineer). What gives? They don't send to the US? I get ME just fine. Anyone else have this problem?


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks for the vote of confidence...I was thinking 3 or 4 before I got to proud. :big:
> 
> Thanks for the comments on tramming. Maybe I'm going about this wrong...do I make a tool for tramming? Or a more flexible general purpose dial indicator holder system thingy. I was hoping for the GP but I'm having trouble finding examples.



Yes! make one  and a GP is fine, Seanol's tram tool is simple, the extension out of stout stock i.e. say 3/4 dia X 6 inch will keep any 'sag well below worry stage. Using just a DI will get your table plenty close enough for hobby work (0.0005) From there you can make a special purpose tool (I Know) or find that what you have is fine. Just remember that the temporary solution often becomes the permanent so polish it up a bit  Some DTI's have a pin mount which can be also accommodated in Seanol's tram tool.

Wing it, show us what you come up with. Cant be worse than the contraptions I dream up

Added: read the thread and picked some of the best practices. Altered my gizmo to also accept a DTI. Now the DTI has a pin for a mount of 0.250 dia and the DI has a 0.375 mount. Gizmo already has a 0.375 hole to accept the DI so turned a piece of brass to 0.370 +/- with a 0.250 inner hole. Left a bit of a shoulder on top and cut a flat down the side. Used a hacksaw and cut a slot down the side of this bushing. So the bushing goes into the 0.375 hole with flat towards bolt. The DTI slips in the other end, snug the bolt a bit and the clamping action holds it all together. Like the clamping as the DTI does cost a buck or two more than the DI so little effort to keep it in better shape is in order. Like the sliding bar version shown earlier, easy enough and increases versatility.

Got to start with something, get used to the operation then improve it should the hobby or personal choice demand greater curb appeal


----------



## DavesWimshurst

Carl,
I get mine through EWA Magazines, US HWY 22, Green Brook, NJ 08812-1090

https://www.ewa1.com/

or more specifically:

https://www.ewa1.com/cgi-bin/sshp/s...=mgs subscript&cols=1&c=search.htm&&scount=61

Hope this helps
Dave


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dave.
That's where I get my Model Engineer too. I hadn't thought to try there. Now I can expect to get Model Engineer Workshop. Goodie!


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, I just got my latest copy of Model Engineer's Workshop (No 151 - June 2009) today - the publishers KNEW you had this question :big:

There is a very nice article in it about DI/DTI accessories 

(I KNOW it's July already, but magazines here in Namibia arrive a bit late from overseas : )
Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> Carl, I just got my latest copy of Model Engineer's Workshop (No 151 - June 2009) today - the publishers KNEW you had this question :big:
> 
> There is a very nice article in it about DI/DTI accessories
> 
> (I KNOW it's July already, but magazines here in Namibia arrive a bit late from overseas : )
> Regards, Arnold



Sometimes when I subscribe I get the last or even the pre-last issue. Maybe I'll be lucky! Thanks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Timing is everything. Another member, 'Shadow' was kind enough to send me some MEW info. Thank you 'Shadow'. I believe it's what you were talking about Arnold.

I think it's what I was looking for. I wanted some blocks to hold rods. But I wanted them to be kind of short. Marv suggested 'split blocks' that would clamp without damaging the rods. I had thought about set screws. The problem I had was keeping them short. It seemed they would have to be about 2" long. The articles that 'Shadow' helped me with provides for about a 1" long block yet split. I also like the fact that it addresses mounting a DTI.

So the next step is to start some drawings and getting an idea about materials or supplies.

I intend to use aluminum for the blocks (joints) and what I guess are called nuts. Mainly because I have it. The articles call out steel...but I don't know why.

I also probably won't go 'beauty' and will keep the nuts and levers pretty plain and right-angled.

I'll order up some steel for the rods...but for now I can use some aluminum I have.

The biggest problem I'll have are the screws. The articles talk about hex head and turning them down to a tapered head. The blocks then are also tapered. But you're supposed to make a taper bit out of drill rod. I can't say I want to go that route yet. I'm wondering why a socket head cap screw couldn't be used as is (other than the head is a bit high). 

My suspicion is that having a tapered screw head and a taper in the block would work like putting a chuck in the tailstock of a lathe. Otherwise...I suppose the screw could simply turn round and round and not tighten up.

I'll probably experiment with turning down the screw head (using a split nut to hold it like I did for the machinist jacks). Maybe I can use the 4 jaw to hold the block and cut a taper in it?

Can you turn a socket head cap screw? Well tomorrow I'll hit the local hardware store and find some 1/4-20 hex bolts. That's probably the ticket.

I'll be interested in what people think. I'll start on drawings and pics soon.

It'll be paper and pencil. I'm somewhat burned out on learning new software tools. I've had a lot of that lately at work. One of the many reasons I chose this hobby is that it's not software but still exercises the ol' wetware.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

The blocks are probably going to be 0.5x0.5x1.0". A 3/8" hole for a rod. A something bigger than 1/4" for the screw. The nut then would take a 1/4-20 and be no more than 0.5" in diameter.

The handle on the nut would have to be a much smaller diameter. After playing with my aluminum (hey!) I can see why steel would be better. the smaller diameter lever bends and I suspect the threading to attach it to the nut won't last long.

But...given that the nut is at most 0.5" diameter...I'm thinking I'll do away with the lever and simply knurl the nut. Twist it by hand. I can't imagine the required strength to be that high. I'm not even sure why I would bother with a blind hole on the nut. Why not goes all way through?

Now...if I were to be thinking about selling this...I'd purty it up. But my goal is to get my mill trammed. I have an engine to build.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The blocks are probably going to be 0.5x0.5x1.0". A 3/8" hole for a rod. A something bigger than 1/4" for the screw. The nut then would take a 1/4-20 and be no more than 0.5" in diameter.
> 
> The handle on the nut would have to be a much smaller diameter. After playing with my aluminum (hey!) I can see why steel would be better. the smaller diameter lever bends and I suspect the threading to attach it to the nut won't last long.
> 
> But...given that the nut is at most 0.5" diameter...I'm thinking I'll do away with the lever and simply knurl the nut. Twist it by hand. I can't imagine the required strength to be that high. I'm not even sure why I would bother with a blind hole on the nut. Why not goes all way through?
> 
> Now...if I were to be thinking about selling this...I'd purty it up. But my goal is to get my mill trammed. I have an engine to build.



Got a C-O-C to go with your idea, a sketch. Making some sort of articulated arm to hold a DTI?

Edit: Trying to figure what your making, anything like this? Split clamp for 3/8 1/4 mounts with a dovetail provision. Little doda on center shaft to grip positioning rod.


----------



## JimM

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I'll have are the screws. The articles talk about hex head and turning them down to a tapered head. The blocks then are also tapered. But you're supposed to make a taper bit out of drill rod. I can't say I want to go that route yet. I'm wondering why a socket head cap screw couldn't be used as is (other than the head is a bit high).



I've just made a couple of these clamps, my first ever practical piece of metalwork !

I also didn't fancy trying to taper the screws, my solution was to countersink the screw hole and silver solder a standard countersunk screw in place. Working fine so far 

HTH

Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert: Close. Get rid of the hole on the left and move that center screw to the left. Get rid of the screw on the right. Now put two side by side with that screw going through both. Tightening a nut on the end of the screw will squeeze both splits and clamp the rods that would go through the other two holes. Articulates. Doda on one end can hold the DTI.

I'll be doing some drawing (sketching, scribbling) this weekend. But you got it.

Jim: Another reference to silver solder! I'm going to have to try it some time. I wondered about using flat head cap screws...then I'd have the taper. But I don't know enough about screws yet to know if I can get the length, whether the taper depth is too big, or if the diameter of the head is too big...and so on. I have some learning and experimenting to do this weekend.

Thanks all.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Another reference to silver solder! I'm going to have to try it some time... I have some learning and experimenting to do this weekend.



Do it! Go get a torch, flux, and rod. Stick some stuff together. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> Do it! Go get a torch, flux, and rod. Stick some stuff together. ;D



'stuff' may include me. Then I'll send a pic and you can play "find the 3 differences" between the pic and your avatar. It'll keep you busy. :big:


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 'stuff' may include me. Then I'll send a pic and you can play "find the 3 differences" between the pic and your avatar. It'll keep you busy. :big:



 :big: Rof} :bow: Too funny!


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Robert: Close. Get rid of the hole on the left and move that center screw to the left. Get rid of the screw on the right. Now put two side by side with that screw going through both. Tightening a nut on the end of the screw will squeeze both splits and clamp the rods that would go through the other two holes. Articulates. Doda on one end can hold the DTI.
> 
> I'll be doing some drawing (sketching, scribbling) this weekend. But you got it.



Changed the pic some, suppose if the end hole was positioned right it would also grab the dovetail on your DTI. A socket head cap screw turned down to be a tight fit into a recess, dab of loctite, knurled k'nob. Of course I still went with the multi purpose route


----------



## mklotz

> After playing with my aluminum (hey!) I can see why steel would be better. the smaller diameter lever bends and I suspect the threading to attach it to the nut won't last long.



Smiles evilly to self while resisting the urge to say, "Told you".



> The blocks are probably going to be 0.5x0.5x1.0". A 3/8" hole for a rod. A something bigger than 1/4" for the screw. The nut then would take a 1/4-20 and be no more than 0.5" in diameter.



What prevents the 1/4-20 from turning when you attempt to tighten the nut?

First, since you're contemplating hand tightening the lock nut, I would use a finer thread for more mechanical advantage - say 10-32. This would also allow you to make the block a bit smaller - an advantage when getting into tight areas. You don't need something as big as a 1/4-20 to clamp a couple of 3/8" rods.

I would would replace the bolt with a stud and secure it with Loctite 609 (not their threadlocker products). Drill through the block at tap drill size for the selected thread (#21 for a 10-32), thread a bit more than half way through the block, then open out the rest of the hole to clearance size (#9 for a 10-32). After slitting the block, Loctite a threaded stud into the thread so it projects out the clearance hole by 5/16" or so. Add 10-32 knurled knob.

If you don't want to screw around making a dovetail in your blocks, think about designing some holes into your block to accept the two dovetail clamps that came with your DTI. A setscrew could be used to secure the clamps to a block. Several holes would give you a wide variety of mounting options.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Smiles evilly to self while resisting the urge to say, "Told you".



Yet somehow manages to say it anyway. :big:

'Smiles evilly to self'...hm, you said something about 'insanity' in another thread?



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> What prevents the 1/4-20 from turning when you attempt to tighten the nut?
> 
> I would use a finer thread for more mechanical advantage - say 10-32.
> 
> I would would replace the bolt with a stud and secure it with Loctite 609
> 
> think about designing some holes into your block to accept the two dovetail clamps that came with your DTI.



'from turning'...I'm thinking the taper...just like when a chuck is put into tailstock. I asked the question in case I didn't taper. Jim mentioned silver soldering the end. I'll get back to that in a sec.

'mechanical advantage'...ah another learning...finer thread, more advantage. Thanks. Actually...had mentioned 1/4-20 but the plan was to go out this afternoon and get a little variety of bolts nuts etc...so I can 'play wif them' and learn.

'secure with loctite'...just a sec

'dovetail clamps'...I will. although I was trying to figure out a way to mill without having a dovetail cutter.

Foozer: Yes that's it. I like the idea of drilling a hole to make the dovetail clamps. I may try that.

Now for the loctiting, silver solder....that would mean the screw is forever there and of a fixed length. If the screw is removable...then one could gang these together? Imagine 3 of them...maybe put washers in between to keep the force on the middle one? Why I would do that I don't know. Maybe only one on a rod to act as some kind of stop?

I've yet to see this on this forum...is it heresy to consider a star or lock washer?


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 'mechanical advantage'...ah another learning...finer thread, more advantage. Thanks. Actually...had mentioned 1/4-20 but the plan was to go out this afternoon and get a little variety of bolts nuts etc...so I can 'play wif them' and learn.
> 
> 'secure with loctite'...just a sec
> 
> 'dovetail clamps'...I will. although I was trying to figure out a way to mill without having a dovetail cutter.
> 
> Foozer: Yes that's it. I like the idea of drilling a hole to make the dovetail clamps. I may try that.
> 
> Now for the loctiting, silver solder....that would mean the screw is forever there and of a fixed length. If the screw is removable...then one could gang these together? Imagine 3 of them...maybe put washers in between to keep the force on the middle one? Why I would do that I don't know. Maybe only one on a rod to act as some kind of stop?
> 
> I've yet to see this on this forum...is it heresy to consider a star or lock washer?



If you don't want it semi permanent use a heli coil insert for the threaded end of the stud. Saves the wear and tear on the AL threads.

Star washers, great for electrical grounding applications, mar the surface as most lock washers do. Not required for the finger pressure load in this case.

In Al you could use a wood router bit for the dovetail, trip to local hardware catalog should turn up a suitable one.

AL seems to prefer a finer thread for studs and bolts, but the threads deform, gall up easily with repeated use.

Changed sketch again, incorporated Marvs stud idea. Also you can use a ball turner and get fancy making attachments 

Ok make a sketch of what your doing, I'm having way to much fun


----------



## mklotz

> Now for the loctiting, silver solder....that would mean the screw is forever there and of a fixed length. If the screw is removable...then one could gang these together? Imagine 3 of them...maybe put washers in between to keep the force on the middle one? Why I would do that I don't know. Maybe only one on a rod to act as some kind of stop?



I've long contended that it's impossible to design the perfect tool on paper. You can only learn the design features that you overlooked by working with an actual tool that fails to do all the things you left out of the design. Features you thought were important will turn out to be frills, obvious stuff will be overlooked, etc.. That's why we build prototypes - to avoid what I call design paralysis - spending more time designing than it would take to build a prototype and exercise it.

So my approach has always been...

Design something *simple* that will do the immediate job to hand.

Use it and keep track of the things you should have done differently, the features you failed to include, etc..

Design the new iteration of the tool including everything you learned above.

Rinse, repeat, etcan (et cetera ad nauseum).


Loctite breaks down with heat. Put a torch on it and you can always get it apart. That's why Loctite isn't used on parts of engines that can get hot.

The dovetails on a DTI are pretty small (<1/4"). I doubt you'll find a cutter in a woodworking store. I got a tiny one from Brownells - used for dovetailed sights on firearms. But, why bother? You've got the clamps that came with the indicator. Use those. Mount them so they're removable.


----------



## AlanHaisley

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The dovetails on a DTI are pretty small (<1/4"). I doubt you'll find a cutter in a woodworking store. I got a tiny one from Brownells - used for dovetailed sights on firearms. But, why bother? You've got the clamps that came with the indicator. Use those. Mount them so they're removable.



Cut the dovetail halves on two pieces and then screw them together.

Alan


----------



## ozzie46

The dovetails on a DTI are pretty small (<1/4"). I doubt you'll find a cutter in a woodworking store. I got a tiny one from Brownells - used for dovetailed sights on firearms. But, why bother? You've got the clamps that came with the indicator. Use those. Mount them so they're removable.
[/quote]



  When I made a copy of the "Zero it Indicator Holder" the plans said to use a small jewelers type triangular file. It worked really well. The dove tail on my indicator fit nicely. 

 Ron


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I've long contended that it's impossible to design the perfect tool on paper. You can only learn the design features that you overlooked by working with an actual tool that fails to do all the things you left out of the design.



I agree Marv. Just collecting info and tips. And there's been some good ones whether I incorporate them in this design or not. Even in the best design...some one will come up with an improvement.

In the meantime, I have no problem taking advantage of others' work. And Foozer is doing a pretty good job designing this. :big:

Thanks Alan and Ron. This is one of the great things about this forum...lots of ideas.

On my way to HF I thought some more about the nuts and worried a little about the strength. I have some 1018 steel left from the last project that's close to the right diameter. I think that will make for better nuts (knobs). I see that Foozer was thinking along the same lines.

No much luck in getting bolts of any kind today. I'll have to order some. So now to do some drawing...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Attached is a (poor) drawing of the half joint. It's similar (nearly identical) to the one in MEW.

Question: If the hole is 3/8 then there's 1/16 of material left. Is that enough? If so...then it can be used to hold the 3/8 pin on the DTI.

As I mentioned...I don't know about the screws/nuts. I'm going to order some different ones and try them. A flat head socket might be easy but the diameter of the head, as well as the depth, comes into play. (Obviously, the diameter should be something less than 1/2.) I have to go find some dimensioning information.

Related to the diameter needed is the nut. I'm going to make it out of steel. I'm thinking 3/4" diameter, knurled. Maybe 1/4 or 5/16 thick. [EDIT: Point is...it has to be wider in diameter than the countersink or taper.]

You'll also see in the diagram the setup for tramming the mill. 6 half joints and 3 rods. I could reduce to 5 half joints if the fifth one is unique in that it has some means to mount the DTI.

Okay...that's what I'll try. It'll be a few days...have to get some bolts.

Oh...maybe longer...I just realized I have to make a vise stop (since I'm making 6 or more identical half joints). Two tools! That should take some weight off!

Now let's see if the attachment worked...

[EDIT: It did. Also reminded me...you can see I put two tapers in the half joint. It may end up being two countersinks. But the point is that it's the same both sides...I don't have to think about what side is what. Well...unless I'm stupid enough to try and put the screw in the rod hole or vice versa....and yes I am.] 

View attachment half joint.pdf


View attachment half joint.pdf


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Sure is quiet tonight. Must be because of the 4th. Wife is in Belgium, daughter #1 is trying to keep the contractions at bay, daughter #2 is...is...oh yeah...at the beach with meathead #2.

So...the vise stop. I looked at the pic that Shred was kind enough to post on "Open Column Launch Engine from Kit"...reply #27 out of 430 back in May 19. Seems like ages..

Attached is a (even poorer) drawing of what I'm thinking.

The jaws of my vise stick up a little over 1/8". So this should fit.
I wanted the part that goes into the vise to be less than 1/2" wide (the half joints are 1/2").

The depth into the vise is 6/8 but I'm thinking of changing it to 5/8..that way the 1" stock I have will do just fine.

1 1/2" long for 3 bolts. Any reason why it couldn't be 1" and just 2 bolts?

On that note...Marv mentioned 10-32. From the little I've seen, 10-24 seems more popular. Any thoughts on that?

Can I start cutting now?


View attachment vise stop.pdf


View attachment vise stop.pdf


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Attached is a (poor) drawing of the half joint. It's similar (nearly identical) to the one in MEW.
> 
> Question: If the hole is 3/8 then there's 1/16 of material left. Is that enough? If so...then it can be used to hold the 3/8 pin on the DTI.



For this application, plenty of meat left. Only squeezing it down a few thousands, 3/8 rod and a loose 3/8 hole (+0.005 or so) Finger tight will hold just fine. Bore holes nice and smooth, reduce the scratch to crack, remove points of stress build up.

You know the contraption is gonna get heavy. Six blocks and hardware, adds up quick. Round over the ends and it'll drop some weight without effecting purpose. Quick sketch, guessed at the taper


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> reduce the scratch to crack



???

My stock of reference books is rather meager. I tried google...but I'm sorry I did. :big:

Thanks. I'm starting to have withdrawal from cutting.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I must wake up 4 or 5 times a night and, nowadays, I'm always thinking about machining.

I started making the vise stop. Two pieces. Not too much to see here.

Here's the raw stock....






Mounted in the middle so the vise pressure is the same along the jaw. The orange bit is my halloween foam to keep the parallels from moving about. So far, no matter what I do (i.e. using a mallet), the part lifts off one of the parallels as I tighten.






Used my biggest end mill to get the biggest cut...






I think I know enough to get one side flat and then use it as a reference for all other work. For example, when I flip if over and mill the other side, the two sides should be parallel. And, so long as I mill the sides, from the side, they should be square.

Still don't know when it's best to use 4-flute over 2-flute other than 2-flute seems preferred when plunge cutting.

I think the part's too small to flycut. Besides...this is about making the tools to tram the mill so it can flycut (i.e. the flycut would not be accurate).

A couple of things on my mind...

a) Two parts like this means a lot of milling cuts to make all sides square (although I may not do all of them).
b) Once shaped I have to drill/tap two holes. Have to be a bit careful so the two on one piece line up with the two on the other.
c) Should this have started out as a one piece? Mill everything, drill the two holes, and then separate the pieces? After separation, tap two of the holes? How to separate? Maybe bandsaw then mill to clean up? The two faces are not critical. Maybe slitsaw? I would want to clamp what would be both pieces and that looks difficult. Use a small diameter end mill? Could clamp properly then.

But 'c' requires a bigger lump of metal...which, as it turns out, I have. But I don't have a way yet to cut it out of the piece I have.

All this for a vise stop. Interesting, not.


----------



## vlmarshall

Don't flip your part over after facing one side. You'll still be clamping on saw-cut surfaces. Flip the now-smooth face agaist the rear jaw of your nice, square vise, and cut a second side square to the first. If the stock were big enough to hang out of the sides of the vise, I'll often cut a side or two during this setup.
Now, keep your first side against the back jaw, but flip the part onto the side you just cut. Stick something between the moveable jaw and the part if it still wants to lift. (cardboard, cardstock, a dowel, I've even used leather. : )
Skim a third side, and you're home-free. Now set the first side you cut down onto the parallels, and skim the fourth.

Yes, squaring up stock for both pieces is easier if they're still attached to each other.

Also, you're not the only one who wakes up at night thinking about machining.

Daughter #1, contractions, what? Cool, pre-congrats, man!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> You'll still be clamping on saw-cut surfaces.
> Daughter #1, contractions, what? Cool, pre-congrats, man!



Does it matter that the sides were not sawn? They were the extruded sides...if you know what I mean. I'd also deburred before flipping. I suspect that still doesn't mean square so your approach is better.

Re: Daughter. Thanks. Early though. Not due till last week of August. But all looks good.


----------



## mklotz

> Should this have started out as a one piece? Mill everything, drill the two holes, and then separate the pieces?



Remember this?



> NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO SO.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Remember this?
> 
> NEVER REMOVE A PART FROM ITS PARENT STOCK UNTIL YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO SO.



Yes. Although wetware is a bit solidified some stuff gets in there...and even better...manages to stay. 

The choice was 'wait for a bandsaw' or 'get started with what I have'. It's more work in this case...but also more practice.

Actually, now that I'm rereading this...my question was "Should this have started out as one piece?". The answer, as defined by the rule you stated, is of course 'yes'. So I needn't have asked the question...I should just have pointed out that, in this case, I decided for reason above, to make it from two pieces.

Thanks Marv.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> My stock of reference books is rather meager. I tried google...but I'm sorry I did. :big:
> 
> Thanks. I'm starting to have withdrawal from cutting.



You know those times when you cut a coat hanger in two by bending it back and forth till it breaks, come on now, everyone has done it, takes a few back and forth's doesn't it. Try it and count the number of times it takes. Now take same coat hanger and put a little scratch mark, bend er back and forth (count) till it breaks again. The scratch (defect) concentrates the stress of the bending to itself. rather than across the full width of area under stress.

Removing toolmarks, scratches and other surface defects is more than cosmetic. There removal and the subsequent smooth surface finish (RH) reduces the effect of metal fatigue at any one point. You tie a half knot in a piece of thread to break the thread by hand, the knot is the defect which concentrates the force of the thread being pulled in opposite direction. Without the knot and good thread the "pull" usually ends up with the big eyed looked at where the thread was wrapped around your finger.

Googled "scratch to crack"?  can only imange what world you suddenly found yourself exploring.




> Does it matter that the sides were not sawn? They were the extruded sides...if you know what I mean. I'd also deburred before flipping. I suspect that still doesn't mean square so your approach is better.
> 
> Re: Daughter. Thanks. Early though. Not due till last week of August. But all looks good.



Personal opinion and like other various body parts, everyone has one, its the process of squaring up the stock that becomes the standard. What you start with is matters not, what you end up with does. If the tried and true procedure calls for XYZ sequence then that's the method to do and learn. Once that way is part of body and soul, deviations (shortcuts) are at the discretion of the user (at the cost of accuracy).



> Posted by: Vernon
> Also, you're not the only one who wakes up at night thinking about machining.



Few shots of Tequila will cure that


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> "scratch to crack"?



Thanks Robert. I'll add that one to the tome of 'Hard to Find Definitions'.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> the process of squaring up the stock that becomes the standard



Yes. Should be standard first...then (maybe) discretionary.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> Few shots of Tequila will cure that



Was someone looking for a cure? ;D

By the way, I wanted to mention good job on the sketch of the half joint (although I won't go so far right now to round the ends - needs another tool). Are the dimensions of the taper sufficient or should there also be a note indicating the degree?

Is that the google sketch-up you were talking about? How long did it take to draw/modify?

Thanks.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Was someone looking for a cure? ;D



Used to wake up in the night and look at the bride thinking "Now there is a picture to take home to MaMa" Maybe too much Tequila 



> By the way, I wanted to mention good job on the sketch of the half joint (although I won't go so far right now to round the ends - needs another tool). Are the dimensions of the taper sufficient or should there also be a note indicating the degree?
> 
> Is that the google sketch-up you were talking about? How long did it take to draw/modify?
> 
> Thanks.



Sketchup. There is a rounding over jig post somewhere on this board, real simple to fab. Taper was a guess, easily adjustable to suit bolt usage. Only took a few minutes to draw it out. I like sketchup for it makes sketches that i can read. Me, pencil and paper end up with a "What the Heck was that" results

EDIT:
HERE for a pic of a rounding over jig. Simple thing, piece of stock with locating pin held in vise so you can present the piece to be worked to, in this case a sanding drum.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Robert. I'll have to try Sketchup again. See what I can do with it.

Marv has a good round-over tool too. Uses an end-mill if I remember. Someday I'll have to make one. I'm thinking the end-mill would be better about keeping out abrasive?

So here's the vise stop so far. Next step are the holes for the two screws. The bigger piece will be threaded. The other not.







The piece on the right is tilted because of the heavier weight.
A little unhappy with the gap...seems too big.

Another reason for squaring all sides of the stock...if you're going to sand/polish it and want it to look good...it's easier if the sides have been milled (faced) a tad.

I wasn't looking for high polish...just wanted it to look decent. I hit the corners and edges with a file to take off the sharpness.

Yep. Just a vice stop.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Robert. I'll have to try Sketchup again. See what I can do with it.


It really is an easy program, if I cna get a box drawn in it . . . no telling what one with a functional brain can do. {url=http://www.crai.archi.fr/RubyLibraryDepot/Ruby/en_geo_page.htm]HERE[/url] for plugins that make the program much more user friendly. 


> Marv has a good round-over tool too. Uses an end-mill if I remember. Someday I'll have to make one. I'm thinking the end-mill would be better about keeping out abrasive?



works too



> So here's the vise stop so far. Next step are the holes for the two screws. The bigger piece will be threaded. The other not.
> 
> Yep. Just a vice stop.



Time for the world of thread inserts, heli coils. Repeated use of a bolt up[on AL threads will pull the threads out. Heli coil cures that. A fixed stud tho also cures that. Tighten the nut rather than twisting a bolt. You'll get longer life from the tool.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not what I'd hoped for...

Drilled the holes. Threaded the two on the one. Countersunk the two on the other.











Was worried about the part going into the vise having a slight taper (0.005). Turns out that was the least of the problems.






Tighten the screws and everything bows out.

I'm thinking the screws are going through too high off the vise. If they were closer then the top of the vise wouldn't act so much as a fulcrum.

Am I right in thinking the screws need to just 'lay' over the vise?

I think it's salvageable though. I can cut more off more parts the and bring the screws down.

Other notes...

1) Used 10-24 because that's what I've got. Word is to use 10-32.
2) Used aluminum for the blocks...should make steel or do something else about the screws (see Foozer's earlier post about studs-n-nuts.

At those angles there's not a lot holding the stop onto the vise...just the edges. I'll need to fix it.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Not what I'd hoped for...



World of levers and as you found the fulcrum point, top edge of vise. I think this is where you drill and tap a hole into the side edge of the vise jaw.

Killing time, have the bike cylinder in the over so I can pull the sleeves out, Bride doesn't appreciate the smell of hydrocarbons as I do and is informing me of that to no end. Got to keep checking her chair and see if the egg has been dropped yet  So thinking about your indicator blocks, drew another version. (paper engineer) Rather than a taper just cut a slot and mill down the side of the bolt to match. Slot keeps the bolt from turning, removable and what the heck, you have a mill. Sketch shows a 1/4-20 bolt, a 10/32 probably would be more suited.

(But Honey, thats the smell of progress coming from the oven)


----------



## mklotz

You left the pins out! - the ones that should have gone in the concentric holes drilled when the two parts were one piece of stock.

Look closely at the commercial version

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1802317&PMT4NO=66502174

The pins keep the two parts parallel while the screw draws them together. As you've discovered, the arrangement you have right now will never work - the parts will always try to pivot around the top edge of the vise jaw.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You left the pins out! - the ones that should have gone in the concentric holes drilled when the two parts were one piece of stock.
> 
> The pins keep the two parts parallel while the screw draws them together. As you've discovered, the arrangement you have right now will never work - the parts will always try to pivot around the top edge of the vise jaw.



Well poo! (There's another one Vernon.) I was just coming on to have a partial celebration. I reworked the parts. I'll get to that in a moment.

I was going by the pic of the stop from 'Open Column etc.'. It looked like there were 3 screws. I guess there are two pins and 1 screw. Poo! I didn't know there was a commercial version. (What would I have done? Hm Marv? What would I have done?)

Well...I'll post this anyway...

I took advantage of the two screws I had and treated the two pieces as one. Put it in the mill, cleaned up the edges, and milled to get the screws closer to the top of the vise.











Better? No?

One screw is better than two. (Don't no one go there.) Funny too...a little voice was trying to say something to me about that. Well...tinnitus and all that.

What holds the two pins in? If anything. Are they sitting in a blind hole on the 'back' part?

$16...are you kidding me!?

I'm going to get a screwdriver. You know the kind.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Cool idea Robert. I like it. Probably don't even need to machine the bolt head.

Don't think you meant to have a square end though. Just take the end mill in far enough.

I still need to find #10 hex bolts but I suspect the head is short enough that there's plenty of room. Can do both sides so you don't have to play 50/50.

If I wait long enough I'll find these things in my mailbox. :big:


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Cool idea Robert. I like it. Probably don't even need to machine the bolt head.
> 
> Don't think you meant to have a square end though. Just take the end mill in far enough.



OOPS, well me no engineer so  changed it



> I still need to find #10 hex bolts but I suspect the head is short enough that there's plenty of room. Can do both sides so you don't have to play 50/50.



Ought to have one in the barn, I'll measure and change pic, course then it'll require an odd sized end mill, Six of one, half dozen of another.

Looks like you have enough room in your clamps to get a pin between the bolts. Not enough room tho to place it above the bolts center line thereby shifting the fulcrum point from edge of vise jaw to the pin.

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

What I might/should've done is place the screws one on top of the other. Then it becomes more like a machinist's clamp. But what do I know.

One thing I don't know is how the pins help move the fulcrum point.


----------



## mklotz

> I was going by the pic of the stop from 'Open Column etc.'. It looked like there were 3 screws. I guess there are two pins and 1 screw. Poo! I didn't know there was a commercial version. (What would I have done? Hm Marv? What would I have done?)



That's the same MSC URL I put in the 'Open Column ...' thread (pg. 20 of the thread) so, if you read my post, you had the picture and the price back then. 



> $16...are you kidding me!?



Now you understand why we all make as much of our own tooling as we can. Actually, $16 is pretty cheap. At a $75/hr labor rate, that's 13 minutes of machinining and none of us can make that in 13 minutes.

The pins are fixed in the jaw that goes inside the vise gap - either by press fit or Loctite. They extend through close-fitting holes in the other jaw of the stop. The idea is that the two stop jaws always remain parallel as they move. Many vise-like items use this configuration, e.g....

http://www.micromark.com/HAND-VISE,7287.html

http://www.micromark.com/MINI-VISE-3and4-CAPACITY,7537.html

or, my soldering vises...






Have you tested your stop? Try tapping it with a small hammer and see if it moves. Remember, it's going to see vibratory forces if you machine a part that's pressed up against it. It needs to have a good grip on the vise jaw. If you can put a rod under it and pop it off with finger pressure, it needs rework.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> What I might/should've done is place the screws one on top of the other. Then it becomes more like a machinist's clamp. But what do I know.
> 
> One thing I don't know is how the pins help move the fulcrum point.



This help?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> That's the same MSC URL I put in the 'Open Column ...' thread (pg. 20 of the thread) so, if you read my post, you had the picture and the price back then.



I did read it. Evidence of 'selective memory'. I certainly remember the machinist's clamp since that was one of my first projects. Glad though that I went back to review it...I took another look at your diagram of the 'woodworker' stop. I didn't understand it at the time...I do now.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Now you understand why we all make as much of our own tooling as we can. Actually, $16 is pretty cheap. At a $75/hr labor rate, that's 13 minutes of machinining and none of us can make that in 13 minutes.



I though it was for fun...or to annoy newbies. :big:



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Have you tested your stop?



Yes. It's not going anywhere. Tried to lift it off with a rod. Tapped it with my mallet. So it works...but...

1) aluminum won't last as long
2) two screws takes more time than one...maybe other issues
3) what else?

Still...worthwhile. Learned a few things.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> This help?



Yes. Thanks.


----------



## shred

Couple other things-- your inside corners might not be completely square, depending on how you cut them and what your tool geometry was like. If it sits still then who cares. You'll make other stops someday anyway 

I'm also not sure you want all that depth on the in-jaw leg. It's going to make a nuisance of itself when you want to use parallels and the stop is far enough over the parallels can't sit on both reference surfaces of the vise.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

shred  said:
			
		

> You'll make other stops someday anyway
> 
> I'm also not sure you want all that depth on the in-jaw leg. It's going to make a nuisance of itself when you want to use parallels and the stop is far enough over the parallels can't sit on both reference surfaces of the vise.



Which is why I'll probably be making more stops. Right now I'm looking to make the half joints and such to hold the indicator. I hadn't thought about other dimensions. If too long, I can shorten.

With my limited experience, I can't foresee what will be a problem, what will work, etc. So...gotta get the experience. Even when someone says 'do it this way' or 'that'...that's based on their experience and what they made. Good for guidance though.

Thanks.


----------



## vlmarshall

Depth, nuthin', you won't want all that THICKNESS, either. suppose you're trying to stop a thin part, the movable jaw's gonna clamp on your stop before it clamps on your stock. If it were still relavant by tomorrow evening, I'd post a picture of one of my vise stops at work, a cheapy commercial stop, with one half milled thinner than .125".


----------



## deverett

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> With my limited experience, I can't foresee what will be a problem, what will work, etc. So...gotta get the experience. Even when someone says 'do it this way' or 'that'...that's based on their experience and what they made. Good for guidance though.
> 
> Thanks.



As someone once wrote: "Good judgement comes from experience, Experience comes from bad judgement."

Dave
The Emerald Isle


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> Depth, nuthin', you won't want all that THICKNESS, either. suppose you're trying to stop a thin part, the movable jaw's gonna clamp on your stop before it clamps on your stock. If it were still relavant by tomorrow evening, I'd post a picture of one of my vise stops at work, a cheapy commercial stop, with one half milled thinner than .125".



My initial intent is to work on the half joints for the indicator holders. They're 1/2" so I made the stop 3/8. When the time comes for thinner parts, I was thinking pusher blocks. Not that a thinner stop wouldn't work for the half joints.

Dave's post says it all (although I wished the writer had said 'poor' rather than 'bad').


----------



## zeeprogrammer

2nd run at the stop. (That sounds odd.)

Making it a little smaller allowed me to use a 1" square piece of aluminum. Had a spare bandsaw blade (picking up a 'good', well better, bandsaw this weekend) so hacked off a chunk. Kept it as one piece (hopefully making a couple of people happier). Squared it and shaped it. Then drilled holes. Drilled two and reamed to 3/16" for some steel rod I had. Drilled the center to tap for a 10-24. Made pins out of some steel rod I had. Finished shaping (the channel). After cutting apart, drilled out the one hole to let the 10-34 pass through.

Looks okay...






Fits/works better! Hopefully the 'couple of people' are happier. I know I am.






So there it is. A stop. Hardly a 'woo hoo' but maybe a 'wee hee'.

Now I can get started on the indicator holder half joints that Foozer has been kind enough to design.


----------



## mklotz

> Fits/works better! Hopefully the 'couple of people' are happier. I know I am.



Color me happier.  ;D


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 2nd run at the stop. (That sounds odd.)



I always stop like that Ahfasir!!!



> So there it is. A stop. Hardly a 'woo hoo' but maybe a 'wee hee'.



Oh! I want one



> Now I can get started on the indicator holder half joints that Foozer has been kind enough to design.



Oh No, Ok if it works then . . . if not it was a different foozer 

Good job on the stops. Funny how the supposed simple things can be such a PIA

Robert


----------



## vlmarshall

Toss me on the "Happier" bandwagon, too. Nice work. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv, Robert, and Vernon.

Now that you know the color...don't keep it to yourself. ;D
Oh right..it's blue isn't it? The 'blue bird of happiness'?
That just doesn't seem right. (For whatever reason, an image of a nose comes to mind.) Rubber hose? Smothers Brothers? Laugh-In! That's it isn't it? Sorry...I was following tradition...i.e. how to celebrate success. It's red tonight.

Robert...simple things are just tough when you're learning.
As simple as this 'should have been'...I learned a lot and grateful for it.

Ha. On one hand I want to say "Sheesh. It's just a stop."...but as a programmer...I know the feeling a newbie gets when he/she writes their first "Hello World.' program in whatever language they're learning.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Now that I have a stop...

I'm going to make 8 of these half joints. I need 6 + 2 for spares (yeah...spares).

Assume for the moment that at some point I have 8 1/2x1/2x1 pieces of aluminum.

Remember Foozer's drawing?

I'll drill at 23/64 and ream at 3/8, one at a time. (The stop will be handy.) This is for the 3/8 drill rod. This is probably the only critical thing.

Then I'll drill the other hole at 13/64, one at a time. (Again using the stop.) This is for the 10-32 bolts. Comment? Is 13/64 enough to let the bolt pass through? The diameter of the bolt is 3/16.

Then I'll mill the countersink, one at a time. (Using the stop.) Not too worried about depth. Enough to keep the bolt from turning. Would be nice for top of bolt to be flush with surface but it's not necessary. I initially thought to do this on both sides so I wouldn't have to 'worry' about finding the correct side. I don't think it's worth the work.

Then I'll slit each at 1/16, one at a time. (Yep...there's that stop.)

Now...maybe I can slit more than one at a time. But...even though most of the machining is not critical...I'd like all the pieces to look as identical as possible. So I'm thinking one at a time...using the stop.

That leaves making the initial 1/2x1/2x1 blocks. Couple of questions...

1) Is it worth machining the sides?
2) Any suggestions to ensure all 8 are 1" long? I suppose I could bandsaw close, then mill using the stop?
3) Any ganging possibilities?

Just trying to let people by pro-active rather than reactive. No I'm not. I'm just trying to avoid the ..."you dolt! why didn't you do it this way or that way".

Oh, I won't be rounding the ends as in Foozer's drawing...pretty as it is. Just squared off.

Thanks.


----------



## joe d

Zee

Just remember that your drill rod might not be the stated dimension, it is often a little bit over.... (Learned that one the hard way.... :big

Joe


----------



## mklotz

joe d  said:
			
		

> Just remember that your drill rod might not be the stated dimension, it is often a little bit over.... (Learned that one the hard way.... :big



Doesn't matter if he's going to split the clamp. The 3/8" hole will open as soon as the slit is machined.


----------



## RobWilson

Nice job on the vice stop Zee , something i will have to get round to making 
Rob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Joe, Marv, and Rob.

So here's the eight little soldiers ready to be drilled...







Yep. That's all there is. Have some patience...this tool will allow me to build the most fantastic engine. Okay a great engine. Would you believe an engine? Small pieces of metal?

Right or wrong...I put four on either side of the vise, laying down, and milled the ends. Then stood them up, on either side of the vise, milled one side to length (height) then did the other side without moving the Z. Ends are probably not square to sides...but it's not critical for this.

Suggestions for a better method are certainly appreciated.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Eight little soldiers having gone through their first drill...

The setup...






The result...






I like that stop.
I had originally intended to drill at 23/64 then ream to 3/8...but I can't get the reamer in without moving the head. So I drilled at 3/8. Probably okay. Test fitted with some 3/8 aluminum rod. No problem. Joe...maybe I should be more worried that the rod I get will be under a little under?

Now I have to wait for the bolts to come in so I can be sure of measurements. I don't trust myself. I suggest you don't either (that is...trust me). May get them tomorrow.

...oops...noticed a little dribble on the side of my mouth...thinking about the next engine...patience...patience...must get equipment in tram...

'gosh' this is exciting (that one's for you Vernon...just to see if you're watching ;D)


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Joe, Marv, and Rob.
> 
> So here's the eight little soldiers ready to be drilled...



You are just having WAY too much fun 

edit: Sure you dont want to 'round' over the ends? Will reduce the stress being placed at the thin spot. Figure out how to do it so you can tell me, I'm a-waiting


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Eight little soldiers having gone through their first drill...


Funny! ;D
You should build a table-mounted stop after this, I'll send you a drawing... including the T-slot size and spacing of MY mill. ;D





			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 'gosh' this is exciting (that one's for you Vernon...just to see if you're watching ;D)



Yes, I'm watching! I'd actually replied to your previous post, but then thought better of it, and deleted it. Here it is again: 



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Suggestions for a better method are certainly appreciated.


More "Milly, Milly", less "Typey, Typey"


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> You are just having WAY too much fun



That had me Rof} for a while.
Okay. Too much fun is not a good thing. :big:
Not to worry...soon as I start the next engine...the fun will be tempered. You've seen me go off before. ;D



			
				Vernon  said:
			
		

> You should build a table-mounted stop after this, I'll send you a drawing... including the T-slot size and spacing of MY mill.



Please do. Course..you understand I don't care about YOUR mill. ;D
I care about you though. I do! I really do! Okay...I don't. But I could!



			
				Vernon  said:
			
		

> More "Milly, Milly", less "Typey, Typey"



Kettle? Pot?


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Kettle? Pot?



 ;D Yeah, yeah... you got me there. I even signed off for a bit after posting it, and tried to get some planning done...but it's just not happening today.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> That had me Rof} for a while.
> Okay. Too much fun is not a good thing. :big:



Could of sworn the piece was an inch long!

Thought I'd try to make up one of your Zee-Brackets. Yours look way better than mine. small hole is 0.250, doesn't look so bad

So that's why the saw couldn't cut all the way. HMM measure once, cut twice ya that's it.

So when you figure out the rounding over, let me know. Oh ya about 45 minutes lathe time (had to mill down some stock on the lathe) Eight of them huh? that's a few hours


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> edit: Sure you dont want to 'round' over the ends? Will reduce the stress being placed at the thin spot. Figure out how to do it so you can tell me, I'm a-waiting



Not any more (sure, that is). Drat.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...oops...noticed a little dribble on the side of my mouth...thinking about the next engine...patience...patience...must get equipment in tram...



Oh right...that pool of drool is going to be a problem. The 'round-over' tool may have to wait. It's on the list though.


----------



## Majorstrain

> The 'round-over' tool may have to wait. It's on the list though.



Hi Zee,
don't forget that cheap router bit set you may have laying around (or nip out and get one).
They are good for aluminium and soft metals. Lots of nice shapes as well.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## vlmarshall

Majorstrain  said:
			
		

> Don't forget that cheap router bit set you may have laying around (or nip out and get one).
> They are good for aluminium and soft metals. Lots of nice shapes as well.



They sure are, I've even used one in a hand-held router, to chamfer one side of some oddly-shaped parts I was cutting out at work. It was a non-critical chamfer to start with, but it looked good when it was finished.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil and Vernon. I may get a router and table out of this yet.

So the clamps...a lesson...when doing repeated operations...measure that first one and make sure it's what you want. It turns out the hole is 0.01 off to one side. Not enough to worry about in this case...other than it speaks to my poor practice.

On the other hand...every one of the parts that followed are identical.

That's right...the little soldiers were exactly in step. Pretty good drill routine!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Still in step...






I got the bolts today. At first I thought I might be able to leave the bolt heads alone...use them as is. But looking at them...the tolerances would have to be pretty tight to ensure they don't turn in the clamp. So I think I'm going to have to mill down the sides of the bolt head as shown in Robert's diagram.

But how? If I'm not careful (and I'm not) the bolt will turn/twist on me while milling.

Use the split nut trick? Fine for the lathe...but doesn't seem good for the mill.

How about this?...take some chunk of aluminum...say 1" square...drill/tap 10-32 through. Slit along the side. Use it as a long split nut. Set up in vise. Mill one side of all eight. Then move the cutter and mill the other side of all eight.

Doesn't have to be exact...just want to make sure the bolt doesn't turn when the clamp is used.

Other suggestions?


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Phil and Vernon. I may get a router and table out of this yet.
> 
> It turns out the hole is 0.01 off to one side.



Mill off 0.010 off the wide sides and all the soldiers will be in perfect harmony,


> That's right...the little soldiers were exactly in step. Pretty good drill routine!





Aint no sense in looking round, Zee's gonna mill your fat feet down, am I right or wrong . . .



> So I think I'm going to have to mill down the sides of the bolt head



run a nut up to the bolt head, double nut on other end, lock nuts together and get all the flats aligned. In the vise and mill in direction that places force against bolt so that it wants to tighten it.

Put bolt in vise and hand file? Then 2 shots of tequila


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Mill off 0.010 off the wide sides and all the soldiers will be in perfect harmony,
> 
> 
> Aint no sense in looking round, Zee's gonna mill your flat feet down, am I right or wrong . . .



You're right! Rof}


----------



## vlmarshall

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Aint no sense in looking round, Zee's gonna mill your flat feet down, am I right or wrong . . .



Ha, I've called cadence, (to myself, quietly) while cranking long cuts on a Bridgeport with no power feed. ;D


----------



## 90LX_Notch

This thread is starting to get a a rather strange "Twilight Zone" sense to it. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Time to do the bolts. I want to shave off 0.045 from either side leaving a head about 0.25 wide and .34 long.

Took a block of aluminum, drilled and tapped for 10-32 towards one end. (Thinking I'm smart and didn't want to put it in the center of the block.) Used the bandsaw to cut a slit down the length of the hole. (Thinking I'm smart and wanted to cut the longer side.) Set it up on the vise. (Thinking I'm smart and put a couple of shims on either side so the vise would force the slit to close...thus trapping the bolt. Used double sided tape.)

(Can you see where this is going yet? I bet not.)

Set up the mill to take off 0.045 from one side. (Thinking I'm smart and all I had to do was turn the screw 180 degree and do the same thing to the other side).

Here's the setup...







(Thinking I'm smart and could eyeball the bolts.)

Boots for the soldiers!






Then took each half joint and milled the slot for the bolt's head to sit in. (Thinking I'm smart and used the stop again.)

Here they are...just need the slits now. Bandsaw or slitting blade?






Do you see it? No wail from the basement...but a bit of a groan followed by...'you idiot...you 'dumb stupid...'. oh:

The bolts are 3/4" long. They need to be 1 1/4" Fooey.

Ah well..only need 4. If I'm lucky...the local hardware store might have some.
I probably didn't need to mill the slot in all eight either but that's okay.

In the meantime I can do the nuts. Steel 5/8" diameter. Knurled would be nice. Shoulders would be nice too. Well...we'll see.

Hm. Hardware store might still be open....

[EDIT: They weren't. Fooey again.]


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Time to do the bolts. I want to shave off 0.045 from either side leaving a head about 0.25 wide and .34 long.
> 
> Took a block of aluminum, drilled and tapped for 10-32 towards one end. (Thinking I'm smart and didn't want to put it in the center of the block.) Used the bandsaw to cut a slit down the length of the hole. (Thinking I'm smart and wanted to cut the longer side.) Set it up on the vise. (Thinking I'm smart and put a couple of shims on either side so the vise would force the slit to close...thus trapping the bolt. Used double sided tape.)



Worked Ok for you, block pinched down enough to keep the bolt from moving, good plan



> Here they are...just need the slits now. Bandsaw or slitting blade?



slit saw, thinner gap, less chance of over torque



> The bolts are 3/4" long. They need to be 1 1/4" Fooey.
> 
> I probably didn't need to mill the slot in all eight either but that's okay.



Now that you mention it 

If you want to get fancy, see how much fun I can have with your labors

mill em down a bit more and bring the center lines closer, can even kill the slot altogether if you close tolerance one side of the hole, turn bolt down to snug fit and give it a bit of a knurl upon the mating surface. Press it in place and . . . 
(ducking and running)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I'm thinking a visit is in order...good thing you're way out there. :big: For my sake.

I think I understand what you mean about a 'knurl on the mating surface'...there's some bolts with integral nuts that have that I think. Doesn't seem much different than adding a star or lock washer though? But I don't know.

In any case...the 'fancy' has two issues for me...one is 'how much effort to put into such tool'? But more importantly...the two half joints can't swing 360 degrees. That would mean having to give some thought to the limitations before putting the things together. That brings me to my third issue... giving some thought. Well you've seen how good I am at that. :big:

It does look good though. (your pic).

As for 'duck and run'...yeah that's right...run...you don't want to see me bleed. My squeal can make the strongest man cry....in shame.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I'm not liking this.
Drilled 3/8. Measured rod 3/8. Slit some of the half joints to 1/32.
Put rod in half joint. Using fingers, closed until end of half joint closed up.

Rod still moved.

Wish I'd been able to ream rather than drill. I think drilling makes the holes too big.
Maybe slit to 1/16 instead of 1/32?

Good grief...this is just a tool. (Important...because I'm learning...but good grief.)

Will continue tomorrow...right now I'm a quart low...


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm not liking this.
> Drilled 3/8. Measured rod 3/8. Slit some of the half joints to 1/32.
> Put rod in half joint. Using fingers, closed until end of half joint closed up.
> 
> Rod still moved.
> 
> Wish I'd been able to ream rather than drill. I think drilling makes the holes too big.
> Maybe slit to 1/16 instead of 1/32?
> 
> Good grief...this is just a tool. (Important...because I'm learning...but good grief.)
> 
> Will continue tomorrow...right now I'm a quart low...



Yup! WAY to Much Fun

Going to need Marv's talents to give the answer as to how far the diameter of a hole reduces in relationship to it circumference. I know Pie is involved but only one I can find is a Key Lime with extra whipped cream,

Not so good at math but here's a shot

p*d=c
p= 3.14159
d= 0.375
c= 3.14159 * 0.375 = 1.17809
less slit width
-0.032 = 1.14609
new diameter
1.14609 / 3.14159 = 0.36481

So the hole would close up 0.01029 tad > ten thousands

measure hole, measure rod and have a double tequila

say hole is 0.385 then with a 0.063 slit the reduced size should be around 0.3648 about a 0.020 change.

Larger slit will increase the stress at the thin point of hole, snap or not? haven't a clue. Scratch to crack tho, plays into metal fatigue 

Ok triple Tequila

Me safe with a 3000 mile distance


----------



## mklotz

> Good grief...this is just a tool. (Important...because I'm learning...but good grief.)



Sacrilege! A tool is a far more important *project* than an engine. After the engine is done it will sit on a shelf untouched for most of the year, only to be taken down and demonstrated on rare occasions. A tool will be used frequently and, if self-made, provide satisfaction every time it is used. It will teach you about design because, every time you use it, you'll think about how it *should* have been designed. 

Hone your design skills by *designing* the knobs (you called them nuts). They're pretty simple but there are still some design considerations you need to think about.

The part you grasp with your fingers should be wider than the width of the clamp so they're easy to grasp.

The part you grasp with your fingers should stand proud of the clamp surface so it can be grasped easily.

(Those two considerations dictate the shape and the dimensions.)

If you need to apply a lot of force with a knob, knurling isn't always the best solution. The knurls, even if flattened a bit with a file, can dig uncomfortably into the skin when torqued hard. I prefer flutes in such applications and they have the further advantage that they can be made even if you don't own a knurling tool.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Going to need Marv's talents to give the answer as to how far the diameter of a hole reduces in relationship to it circumference.



Even better...he'll have the program that, given the diameter of the rod, specifies the hole diameter and slit width. I should know better...I'm supposed to be an engineer. Not doing enough thinking or prep work...




			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> Me safe with a 3000 mile distance



Think so? Think I don't have friends? ...don't answer that...I'll just get depressed.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Sacrilege! A tool is a far more important *project* than an engine.



I'm starting to learn your buttons. ;D

Oh yes...I understand how important the tool is. The 'project' can not be any better than the tool (or the knowledge of how to apply the tool) ...and that includes the tool (me) using the tool. Ah well...you know what I mean (and I'm no longer a quart low.)



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Hone your design skills by *designing* the knobs (you called them nuts). They're pretty simple but there are still some design considerations you need to think about.



Been thinking quite a bit about it tonight. More about the process than anything else. Knurling seems to require a lot of pressure. So part should be held between head and tail stock. But at some point I have to part the knobs off. And the parting tool should be close to chuck...but then I'm clamping onto knurled area....so thinking about it. 
[/quote]



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> The part you grasp with your fingers should be wider than the width of the clamp so they're easy to grasp.
> 
> The part you grasp with your fingers should stand proud of the clamp surface so it can be grasped easily.



Yes. That's why I specified 5/8" diameter. Is that not enough?



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> I prefer flutes in such applications...



Hm...googling that gets me some musical instruments...but I think I know what you mean. Essentially indents around the circumference? How?


Thanks Marv.


----------



## vlmarshall

Knurl a long piece of stock, then turn down the non-knob portion of a knob, drill & tap it, part it off, turn down another...


----------



## vlmarshall

But, Marv's right, knurls eat skin. :-\


----------



## zeeprogrammer

What I had been thinking...(we can argue 'thinking' another time)...

I need 4 knobs. (Really only 3 but I 'want' 4.)
Each knob is 1/4" to 3/8" max.
4 * 3/8 = 1 1/2".
Knurl the whole thing.
Drill the whole thing. (Don't know whether to tap now or tap each knob later...)
Place 'thick parting tool at 3/8 - half thickness of parting tool.
Move in about 1/4" (remember this is 5/8" diameter stock.
Use a triangular file or such to knock down the knurl on the edge.
Use a 'thin' parting tool to part all the way.
That would give a slight shoulder to the knob.
Repeat.
Maybe do the tap now.
So I thought that would be a decent knob.
But then people are saying knurls eat skin.
Sand it down?
Or...wait until someone 'splains' what flutes are.
As for knurling...could be diamond...but could also be thick parallel...would that be flute-like?


----------



## vlmarshall

Flutes, like on a reamer, or big gear teeth.... Hmmm, cutting tools or "teeth"... trust us, these are better for gripping... no, really, try it. ;D


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> What I had been thinking...(we can argue 'thinking' another time)...
> 
> 
> But then people are saying knurls eat skin.
> Sand it down?
> Or...wait until someone 'splains' what flutes are.
> As for knurling...could be diamond...but could also be thick parallel...would that be flute-like?



One way to get the flutes, knurl eats skin, well way for me, long hard road. Turn the knob material to required diameter (5/8), turn another piece to dia plus 1/2 inch ah, easy way ball end mill say 5/16 dia. Stock on RT and every 45 degrees mill a rounded bottom slot around the circumference. Give you grip without tearing the skin off fingers. Something like the pic


----------



## vlmarshall

Yeah, Foozer, like that... just like all those tiny valve wheels I've seen on here... I guess I'll be doing the same thing soon.


----------



## DavesWimshurst

Carl,
A couple of points on just drilling a hole for your clamps. not only can drilled holes be over sized they can be out of round and even bigger at one end than the other. This is not so good for the clamping action you want.

Reaming is best but if you don't have the proper sized reamer for the job drilling a couple of sizes under and finishing with the proper size correctly sharpened drill can give a better result. Practice on some spare material because sometimes a drill can chatter at the start of the hole.
This is not to be done in brass unless drill is sharpened for brass, an ordinary drill can grab:

Brass drill grind





Your knurled nuts will have better tightening power for the same diameter if you use a finer pitch thread. The pressure on the part (and the lathe) when knurling is eased with a straddle type tool:






Knurled parts may eat skin but that's what toughens you up! :
Dave


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert and Foozer: Thanks, that's what I thought flutes are. Seems like quite a job just for 3 or 4 knobs.

What do you think of the brass nut on this QCTP?






Originally I was thinking of a shoulder on both sides...but this seems simpler (but just doing a simple shoulder, not like in the pic)...

Dave: Yeah, originally I wanted to ream but there wasn't enough room to get the reamer in unless I wanted to move the table out of the way or shorten the reamer. Probably should have figured out a way. Thanks.


----------



## vlmarshall

That's the nut I was imagining. Do you have collets? a rotary table? an indexer? collet blocks? Just trying to help ya make flutes.

I guess you could always MAKE a quick-and-dirty index plate and holder, and plunge cut Foozer's eight flutes with an endmill.


----------



## shred

If you need the torque and don't want to fuss with flutes, slap a threaded hole in the middle of an inch or two length of square stock and make a T-handle. They're easily replaceable if they get to be too much of an eyesore.

For a cross-shaped 4-flute knob without an indexer, take some square stock and run a ball end mill down each side. Take over to the lathe, drill, tap, make a little boss and part off. Milling down the center of each face is easier to hang onto in the vise but makes for little ninja-throwing-star shaped knobs. Milling off one corner prevents that, but can get tricky to hang onto unless you leave some un-fluted sections at the ends.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Shred: Now I have a 3rd alternative. Actually, while I may not do this for this little project...it's a good idea for the tip box. Thanks!

Vernon: If that's the nut you were imagining...those are awfully small flutes. They look like they were knurled with a large straight knurler.


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Vernon: If that's the nut you were imagining...those are awfully small flutes.


Not the straight knurl, the turned profile in my post from last night.
The flutes, I imagine more like these:


----------



## mklotz

5/8" knob on 1/2" stock. That means the knob will project out only 1/16" on each side of the clamp body. If you think that's enough then go for it. 

IMO, the knob should look like a top hat with a 5/8" (or larger) brim and the 'stovepipe' section 1/2" (or a bit less) diameter and at least 3/8" high to lift the knurled/fluted section away from the clamp body.

With these small lathes you'll be well advised to not use a push type knurler. They require a lot of pressure which isn't all that good for the lathe bearings. The tool of choice is the scissor type knurler as shown by DaveW.

If you've done a good job knurling, the diamonds formed will terminate in distinct, sharp points - tactile discomfort. Taking a light skimming cut across the knurled surface will dull these points or, more simply, apply a file (carefully) to make them more finger friendly.

IMO, knurling is ideal for small knobs that are only adjusted occasionally, e.g. the thimble lock on a micrometer. Knobs that are adjusted frequently or require considerable force to be exerted should be fluted for comfort. For knobs that really require some torquing, I, like Shred, prefer T-handles. However, T-handles have those projecting ends that can catch 'stuff' so give some thought to the application before choosing that avenue.

Collets and collet blocks make fluting easier but, lacking those, the whole process can be done simply with a bit of math on the mill...

Clamp the knob in the MM vise with the 'brim' uppermost and center it under your spindle.
Now calculate the coordinates such that a vertically descending endmill will cut suitable scallops into the periphery of the brim.

Example:

N = number of flutes desired
R = radius of workpiece
r = radius of endmill
d = desired depth of flute (d < r)

Define:

S = R + r - d
P = 360/N

Then:

xk = S * cos(k*P)
yk = S * sin(k*P)

for k = 0, 1, 2, ..., N-1

gives the x and y coordinates (relative to center of knob) for cutting each flute.

For your R = 5/16" knob, I would use (but adjust as you wish) something like:

N = 6
r = 1/8"
d = 0.025"

After cutting the flutes, mount the knob in the lathe and chamfer both edges of the 5/8" brim. Debur the curved section of each flute with a hand-held deburring blade.

When I make knobs like this, I always make a few extra and leave them undrilled and untapped. Throw them in the knob drawer and, next time you need one, it's easy to pull one out, mount in the lathe via the 'stovepipe' section, and drill and tap to suit.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> 5/8" knob on 1/2" stock. That means the knob will project out only 1/16" on each side of the clamp body.
> 
> IMO, the knob should look like a top hat with a 5/8" (or larger) brim and the 'stovepipe' section 1/2" (or a bit less) diameter and at least 3/8" high to lift the knurled/fluted section away from the clamp body.
> 
> With these small lathes you'll be well advised to not use a push type knurler. They require a lot of pressure which isn't all that good for the lathe bearings. The tool of choice is the scissor type knurler as shown by DaveW.



I don't know if 5/8 is enough. The fact that it's off the clamp body by 3/8 should help (might even mean I could go smaller). I'll learn one way or the other.

'top hat'...yes...that's the image I was trying to convey.

I have the scissor type knurler.

Now if I could just do some machining...I'm hiding in the closet while dog sitting for one daughter and cat sitting for the other.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I don't know if 5/8 is enough. The fact that it's off the clamp body by 3/8 should help (might even mean I could go smaller). I'll learn one way or the other.



Just remember it wont be your finger tips doing the action, when you tighten the knobs you will use your thumb and the inside of your "pointy" finger. That skin is what catches on you pant pocket and will remind you for days after why knurls eat skin.

EDIT: tried it didnt ya 

A 5/8 (3/4) dia set off the clamp like a top hat, with flutes. You can mill the flutes into a length of stock and then work each piece to size. Four flute is harder on the finger as most of the force applied from the "pointy" finger will be applied to just one edge of a flute. Eight flutes will spread it out over 2 or 3.
Tactile Discomfort  like a new waxed rope over a tall tree. Knurls are fine for small items like the tool post holder, larger and you'll be thinking of testing the ropes discomfort on the designer.

Your issue is its not a "one of" item, that you would tackle without care. Eight of them has you thinking too much. Make one, nail down a process that works for you and make another, repeat as necessary.

Can always just use some 3/4 hex stock, turn down for the "Top hat" effect and use as is. The hex is not so disagreeable to the fingers and you'll escape the milling.

No worse than Xmas toys, some assemble required

EDIT: added shot

If you want to go the real simple and functional, hack of a bolt, drill and tap, and Poof! the thumb wheel is done.

Hacked one out for demo, and I mean hacked


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Still struggling to figure out how. Maybe I'm looking for a too easy solution. (I like the hex idea...but I don't have the material. Just like previous idea for flutes...I don't have a ball end mill.)

Anyway...thought I'd play at something. Cut a piece of 3/4 round aluminum...A little shoulder...drilled and tapped. Smooth edge but a little rag or pliers should torque it down enough. I hadn't mentioned it earlier...I sawed the slits a little wider...1/16 (Which is probably too big now.) Oh...and the hardware store was closed. Ran by Home Depot and found some 10-32 1 1/4 slot heads. Used those. Still trimmed off the sides to fit the slot on the half joint.

Anyway...the good news...the rods aren't going anywhere. No slip at all.

The bad news...'we' forgot something...
I'm including you all too because 'we' should have known this...

*there's nothing stopping the two half joints from rotating on each other.*

Bit of a bummer.

Other little bummers include:

a) making the slit a little too big (I think)
b) making the slit not on center
c) also not making either hole on center
d) not using a reamer so hole isn't round
e) settling for slot head bolts
f) slotting all half joints

Upsides include...
uh...include...
include...

a) lot of fun
b) learned a lot

Most important...the tool is still usable. A major goal out of this was to get a tool so I can adjust and tram the mill in preparation for the next engine project.

So...this project is going to be a redo. Need to:
a) figure out flutes
b) figure out round-over tool
c) pay someone else to do it


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The bad news...'we' forgot something...
> I'm including you all too because 'we' should have known this...
> 
> *there's nothing stopping the two half joints from rotating on each other.*
> 
> 
> 
> Most important...the tool is still usable. A major goal out of this was to get a tool so I can adjust and tram the mill in preparation for the next engine project.
> 
> So...this project is going to be a redo. Need to:
> a) figure out flutes
> b) figure out round-over tool
> c) pay someone else to do it



A & B good plan
C and ruin all the fun naw

turn your knob piece down so the shoulder fits into the slot. other end of piece.hmm piece of round stock in chuck jaw (10-32 size) set bracket on this piece, set knurler right up to edge of stock with a slight inward angle. rotate stock by hand and put a little radial knurl on the mating surfaces or, use a star washer.

First option also to get fancy if you turn up a little boss on the bracket then the knurl will look much cooler 

Ok me go back to tranny change now.

Actually liking this post, I need to make some brackets similar to these for tranny cooling line separators. Your giving me all the "Not to do" info


----------



## mklotz

You don't need a ball-end mill to do flutes if you use the method I detailed in my earlier post. Any old straight endmill will do the trick.

Try a paper washer between the two clamps to prevent them from rotating relative to each other when clamped. Grocery bag paper may work. If not, try a fine grit emory paper.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that they turn relative to each other that easily. Are you sure you have the knob locked down tightly enough? Put a 10-32 nut in place of the knob and tighten it with a wrench and see if they still slip. If so, a properly designed knob may allow you to provide enough torque to lock things by hand. If not, then consider the paper washers and, in desperation, a lock washer.

There's another, more complicated possibility here. (I'm winging it here but bear with me.) If the two slots aren't fully closed when the rods are gripped then further tightening of the knob isn't providing much force to force the two clamps together (thus increasing the clamp-to-clamp friction that would prevent them from rotating relative to each other). In effect, the two clamp sections in contact can spring away from each other despite the fact that the clamp is tight.

Put a thin washer in each slot such that, when the rod is clamped tight, said washer is also clamped. (The washer has the effect of decreasing the slot width.) Then, further tightening of the clamp will have the effect of forcing the two clamp faces more tightly against each other thus increasing friction.

It may not work but it's a cheap and cheerful experiment to perform. If you don't have thin washers to try, just stick any old (metal) shim in there to see if it works. A Coke can will provide more material than you need and the only tool required will be a pair of scissors.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Try a paper washer between the two clamps to prevent them from rotating
> 
> Put a 10-32 nut in place of the knob and tighten it with a wrench and see if they still slip.
> 
> Put a thin washer in each slot such that,
> 
> but it's a cheap and cheerful experiment to perform.


 
I'd never heard of experiments being called 'cheerful' before. Good one.

Paper only - nope.
Washers with paper - better - but nope.
Nut - didn't try it...here's what I found (gets kind of obvious)...

Depending on which way you rotate one to the other...it can loosen or tighten...because it puts torque on the nut (knob).

I think too that the clamps, being aluminum, don't provide a lot of friction against each other. (But I don't know enough about metals to suggest an alternative.) And the play knob I have is aluminum too.

I don't like the idea of emery...not sure why...any concern about abrasive material getting loose?

I think there's a fundamental design flaw...or at least...some opportunity for design improvement. Or...maybe we just need a couple of star washers.

You mentioned lock washer. Why lock? For that matter...why or why not star? I understand the bit about wear but otherwise?

Thanks Marv.

Again...this may be 'just a tool' but I know I'm learning a lot and I hope anyone else looking at this thread is finding some useful tidbits.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'd never heard of experiments being called 'cheerful' before. Good one.


 Ah Fermentation perhaps




> Depending on which way you rotate one to the other...it can loosen or tighten...because it puts torque on the nut (knob).
> 
> 
> I think there's a fundamental design flaw...or at least...some opportunity for design improvement. Or...maybe we just need a couple of star washers.



Even the commercial varieties, well the less expensive ones suffer that flaw. Like on your mag indicator holder, which is the item being fashioned after, they attempt to increase the holding power by tapering the mating joints. Still tho it will loosen if the rod is turned. Solution, dont bump the rod


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Just saw your post Robert.

Not sure what you mean. The slot is only as wide as the 10-32 hole. So if I turn the shoulder down to fit the slot...the knob won't turn.

I think we'll get this tool to work for what I need for now.

I want to continue the thread though with the idea of doing the tool up right. That's why plans 'a' and 'b'. Need to figure out solution for rotation though.

Couldn't pay someone anyway and I have nothing to trade other than these funny looking 1/2 x 1/2 by 1 blocks of aluminum with a couple of holes and a slit.

Oh...now just saw your second post. True enough about the flaw...but this is so easy that it would make it a real pain to tram with since you have to move the tool.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Oh...now just saw your second post. True enough about the flaw...but this is so easy that it would make it a real pain to tram with since you have to move the tool.



Like you said earlier probably didnt need to slot all the pieces. Have you flipped one of them around to increase the surface area on the mates? You know flat to flat. With it as your pic shows their is very little surface to surface area, as you dont have all that much to begin with. Take one bracket and just mill down the slotted side smooth, have your knob set against the new flat surface and the other side will give full contact. Cant hurt, a few center punch marks, ah thats getting off the path.

Without a positive locking system its gonna slip if rough handled. 

Trannys out, now to go and whittle up some cooling line separators/ holders


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Have you flipped one of them around to increase the surface area on the mates? You know flat to flat.



I did. May have helped. But it really comes down to the torque on the knob as the rods are rotated. Rotate the knobs in one direction and it gets pretty tight. I don't think I can get that kind of torque using my fingers on the knob (flutes or not). A bar like shred and Marv suggested would probably work.

But it may very well be that I'm asking too much. I need to flute the knob and see what it gets me.

Thanks.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I did. May have helped. But it really comes down to the torque on the knob as the rods are rotated. Rotate the knobs in one direction and it gets pretty tight. I don't think I can get that kind of torque using my fingers on the knob (flutes or not). A bar like shred and Marv suggested would probably work.
> 
> But it may very well be that I'm asking too much. I need to flute the knob and see what it gets me.
> 
> Thanks.



Back to HERE as your original idea. First thought Too many moving parts, second thought, dont say it.

Back in the beginning of this thread are fine examples off what your after, from simple to elegant.

Goal: Set the mill square

Requirements: repeatable and accurate performance

Considerations: Materials, ease of construction, stoutness

Lets say the current path is too full of brambles to continue down, given the above set of conditions what other route do you now see.

All in all tho youve had a good time with this, drilling holes vs reaming, locating holes to center of part, slitting saw work and more fun with nuts and bolts than is allowed sober. Even got the tern Flutes down with so many ways to make the brain hurts. Forget the radial knurling, thats a whole different ball game with its own set of issues.

Your original sketch looks like you planned to leave the spindle in its home position and bring the indicator to the work. The spindle should follow a straight axes throughout its travel (there is a way to check this0 so bringing it down to the work makes the tramming tool design much simpler.

But what do I know, I dropped the tranny out of the car and forgot to disconnect the speedo cable 

Where too next?


----------



## joe d

Zee

Perhaps you might consider cam-lock type fasteners instead of a fluted knob? These could exert considerably more pressure on the clamp than hand-turning a knob, no matter how many bowls of wheaties or cans of spinach you might have consumed :big:

Joe


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> Your original sketch looks like you planned to leave the spindle in its home position and bring the indicator to the work. The spindle should follow a straight axes throughout its travel (there is a way to check this0 so bringing it down to the work makes the tramming tool design much simpler.



Not sure I follow. The idea was to tram the mill. I had an idea but also some questions. The idea was to have the spindle at top of Z (is that home?)...table at center X. Then use tool to set indicator to one extreme X of table. Rotate to other extreme of table. Tram as required.

You had mentioned some possible variability in X as the head went up/down. I have no idea what to do about that given the mill I have. Other than to adjust as best I can the Z gib.

One question was whether or not it was useful to move table to extremes of X travel. On one hand I can see how that would be even more accurate...but I don't know if it's necessary. And...what a pain...that's a lot of turning. Plus...I have a feeling I'll never find the proper adjustment if I move the table. (If the Y axis is not locked down, you can actually grab the table by hand and move it back and forth very significantly. There's a whole lot of play.)

Where to next?

Well...I really want to adjust the mill and the lathe and get started on the next engine. But I also want to continue this thread and try and get a satisfactory tool (or tools) out of it.

So far 1 for 1. I'm pretty happy with the stop and what I learned. This 'tramming' tool...as simple as it may be, is turning out to be a pretty good learning thread.

...

So far we've generated some 4 methods to do this. Joe's (the last post here) is another. Thanks Joe! (And I'll pass on the spinach.) Any idea why such notion isn't used on magnetic base indicator holders? Cost? Harder to produce? Or is it used on more quality equipment?

Thanks.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Not sure I follow. The idea was to tram the mill. I had an idea but also some questions. The idea was to have the spindle at top of Z (is that home?)...table at center X. Then use tool to set indicator to one extreme X of table. Rotate to other extreme of table. Tram as required.



So for this what is needed? and for this it is assumed that the spindle will bring the tool to the work.

Spindle attachment

Cross Bar

Indicator Holder

*Spindle Attachment:* depends upon the capacity of the spindle itself, want it to easily attach and stout enough to support the cross bar.

Possibles: A 1/2 dia inch piece of round sturdy steel stock length but lets say 3 inches long. Yours is an X2 variant so were not dealing with monster mills here.

*Cross Bar:* Given requirement to be able to sweep the tables extremes its max length to be determined by table width divided by two. The longer this piece becomes the more the requirement for robustness becomes.

_Question: is the requirement for full table width sweep necessary, would not the half way point from center out serve as well? I.e. 18 inch wide table condition using a 9 inch cross bar, why not use a 4 1/2 inch bar. It is understood that the farther out the sweep is the greater the accuracy upon results, but the shorter bar will still return results better than the accuracy of the machine of topic_

Cross bar needs to attach to spindle piece, again this connection point should be simple and secure.

Cross bar needs to be of such size to resist movement

Cross bar needs some method for indicator to attach

*Indicator Holder* Determined by indicator mount itself, round shaft type or dovetail type. Ease of attachment, firm grip without marring the indicator itself also needs to be considered.


Perhaps more but it is not really that complicated. Dont always catch all the words that fly out at a hundred miles an hour from mental pictures  Workings of a scatter brain, however you have any new design ideas?

You've re looked over the types in this thread, from simple to not so simple. Given the material you have and the new found lessons give us a sketch.

Genius is the simple solution to a complicated problem, bring the genius out 



> You had mentioned some possible variability in X as the head went up/down. I have no idea what to do about that given the mill I have. Other than to adjust as best I can the Z gib.



There is a way, I cant explain it, it is simple, it is not putting a piece of round stock in the spindle and running it up and down against an indicator, its like the other way around.




> So far 1 for 1. I'm pretty happy with the stop and what I learned. This 'tramming' tool...as simple as it may be, is turning out to be a pretty good learning thread.



Should be happy, you learned about levers, such a simple concept older than the hills yet effects virtually every thing mechanical




> So far we've generated some 4 methods to do this. Joe's (the last post here) is another. Thanks Joe! (And I'll pass on the spinach.) Any idea why such notion isn't used on magnetic base indicator holders? Cost? Harder to produce? Or is it used on more quality equipment?
> 
> Thanks.



Cost

Awaiting your new design

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer

Did a quick rig up...

1st rod in spindle.
2nd rod connected to 1st rod using clamps.
Dial test indicator connected to 2nd rod using clamps.

It's junk. Worthless for tramming the mill.

Big issue...as pointed out by DavesWimshurst...the 3/8 holes won't be round. Not a good hold between rod 1 and 2. A lot of play because only the end of the hole is clamping. Since this is a clamp issue...it's a kill as far as I'm concerned.

For that matter...I'm still not sure how I can get a good tram by moving the DTI from one end of the table to the other. I just don't believe that, even assuming the mill were in perfect tram, that the DTI would give me the same reading. I mean, you breath on it and it changes.

I also think the 3/8 is too small. Not that going bigger (whatever that is) would do any good.

So what to do? Well I'll think on it. But I pretty much know the first thing I'm doing is more research on how people tram their mills.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Did a quick rig up...
> 
> 1st rod in spindle.
> 2nd rod connected to 1st rod using clamps.
> Dial test indicator connected to 2nd rod using clamps.
> 
> It's junk. Worthless for tramming the mill.



Not a total loss




> For that matter...I'm still not sure how I can get a good tram by moving the DTI from one end of the table to the other. I just don't believe that, even assuming the mill were in perfect tram, that the DTI would give me the same reading. I mean, you breath on it and it changes.



Tram is just a fancy term meaning the table is perpendicular to the axis of the spindle, Thats all your doing, but you know that already.

Yup breath on them.. remember what we buy for this hobby are not liquid filled, diamond bearing versions with flux capacitor powered anti-gravity inhibitors. There gonna move if you look at em hard enough, nor are we attempting to achieve a surface flatness down to the millionth so a molecular bond can be achieved between parts. Hobby tools are what they are, we can only do the best we can with what we have.

The tool for checking the bed spindle relationship is nothing more than a right angle triangle. If the alignment is perfect than at every point within the triangles sweep (rotational axis) no gab between triangle and bed will be seen.

Tram tool is just a triangle with all the unnecessary bits cut away. One leg fits the spindle and the other is the cross bar. The stoutness of the cross bar serves as the 3rd leg. Indicator at end just measures any gap that may present it self from point "A" and point "B" So on the X axis you set thfirst point, zero the dial and then rotate the spindle 180 degrees to point "B" any change in dial reading gives the table tilt. Can do the same for the Y axis.

ideally you would want a ZERO deviation between all points, just aint gonna happen. if you can achieve a +/- 0.001 over a 12 inch swing, be happy. Milling that 1 or 2 inch piece at the center of the table you'll never see it. The error reduces towards the center of the swing.

Everyone makes stuff that just doesnt work. Got to keep that sense of humor about ya, just watch MaMa doing her knitting, how many times does an hour or two's worth of work gets the ol unzip do over bit? Just the way it is.

Where are we going daddy? Are we there yet?

EDIT: add

So after reading my own ramblings, I need to make a tool to square off the milling attachment for the lathe. A Monday project and will be using some of your findings in the process, see not a failure at all. Going to make it from the pieces in the photo, hunk of 3/4 inch round AL stock and a broken up end mill bit.


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Robert.

No not a total loss...as I'd said...I learned a lot. But the tool is just no good.

I think the design concept is still good too. Your idea of the slot for one. But I wonder if we're too small.


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## 90LX_Notch

Carl,

This has been a great thread. It inspired me to tram my mill. When you go to tram your mill use your tramming tool first to get the play out of all of the axis. I had my gibbs tight and I was amazed at the amount of play I still had. Z axis has to be tight or your just peeing into the wind. Z is affected in three ways the gibb screws, the big nut at the back of the column, and the three mounting bolts at the base. Any / all of these can be source for play in the Z axis on the mini mill.

I am attaching a photo of my setup and two of the holders I used. I am fortunate in that I bought a back plunger indicator years ago which made things very easy. If I didn't have it, I would have set up with my test indicator. The holders are commercial ones but since your in a remake phase I thought I would post them up. 

Bob


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Robert.
> 
> No not a total loss...as I'd said...I learned a lot. But the tool is just no good.
> 
> I think the design concept is still good too. Your idea of the slot for one. But I wonder if we're too small.



Aint touching that one 

Dum De Dum OK that thought is gone,

Hole in clamp is too big, just a simple sketch that illustrates, I know! The hole in the clamp has to be as close to the rod size as feasable. Going oversize reduces the points of contact so much that with a, say 0.390 hole its probably just the burrs on the hole surface doing the gripping. Hard to really tell from sketch but one at 0.390 when closed down shows little if any contact with rod, one at 0.375 has full contact.

Have you tightened down one of those 10-32's yet to snapping point?

Ill show you later the bonehead move I did on my cylinder yesterday. had the sketch right in front of me and still, well, would make the bride laugh if she knew


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## zeeprogrammer

Hi Bob (90XL_Notch): Thanks for the compliment! And thanks for the pics. Most especially...thanks for the tips. That will be very useful.

Robert (Foozer): Yeah I paused over 'enter' but sent it anyway. ;D

The problem is that the hole is tapered...not just out of round. The only grip is at one end. The rod just flops at the other end. (There...another opportunity for you.)

No...the half joints are just no good. Going to have to redo and figure out a way to use the reamer. (Not that I'm going to do anything right away...but eventually.)


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hi Bob (90XL_Notch): Thanks for the compliment! And thanks for the pics. Most especially...thanks for the tips. That will be very useful.
> 
> Robert (Foozer): Yeah I paused over 'enter' but sent it anyway. ;D
> 
> The problem is that the hole is tapered...not just out of round. The only grip is at one end. The rod just flops at the other end. (There...another opportunity for you.)
> 
> No...the half joints are just no good. Going to have to redo and figure out a way to use the reamer. (Not that I'm going to do anything right away...but eventually.)



I know what you mean about the reamer, get things set up and WHOA, the reamer is too long, why didnt I check that first? Do I cut this 15 buck reamer down so it will fit or just drill the hole. Yup, know that one, worse is I still do it!

I'll go bang head on wall for a while, flopping around just makes her laugh 

EDIT Added:
So after the physical abuse time to make a little gizmo, took lots of photos but rather than bore shall just keep to the end.

Dont have a mill so use the lathe with an attachment for the cross slide to do some mill task. Limited but . . . So normally I just chuck up something in the little vise and square it off to the chuck jaws. Works, but with this thread going got to do more than draw perty pictures.

End result, the parts. Hunk of round stock drilled and reamed for a DI with a spud made from old busted up end mill. So as not to mar the DI with the set screw I fashioned a little brass plug, one side flat the other with a 0.375 radius cut to match the hole size. 

At the DI end I used a Heli-Coil thread insert, serves two purposes. First as this set screw will see more usage the thread insert will keep the threads intact for much longer than just plain threaded AL. Second it acts as a trap for the little brass bit that will apply the actual clamping force to the DI shaft. No little ding marks 

Not a big deal but for my usage it should work fine. Principal is the same, vertical or horizontal usage.

And of course its not done till it has a home


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## Foozer

Just a tidbit on how I made the little brass plug to squeeze against the DI shaft.

The thread insert called for a 0.320 hole to allow for the heli-coil tap so I turned a piece of brass to 0.320, tad under. Frilled a 0.320 hole into some scrap stock, set the brass plug into this hole and cross drilled thru the stock and plug.

As the cross drilled hole was 0.375 the process chopped the plug in two nice and clean leaving me with a perty little radius bit that i just slit sawed off the stub. Couple wipes with sand paper and she was good to go. 

Threaded the hole, set in the plug, set the insert and called it good. Plug can be removed thru the DI mount hole but its a real PIA to get it back in.

Robert

Was fully clamped in the home made jig, removed for photo op


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## AlanHaisley

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The problem is that the hole is tapered...not just out of round. The only grip is at one end. The rod just flops at the other end. (There...another opportunity for you.)



Carl,

A rescue may be possible. If there is enough material to drill and tap holes for setscrews to lock the rods, even though the holes ended up with a taper, setscrews will jam them tight. I made something similar once but used 10-32 SHCS to lock the rods. Obviously even smaller screws should work similarly, perhaps 6-32. To protect the rods, I drilled slightly into the end of each screw and soldered (Locktite should work) little brass plugs into each.

In your case, just drop a small aluminum plug in beneath the screws to gain some protection for the rods.

Of course if there is not enough metal to drill and tap for setscrews this idea becomes a non-starter.

Alan


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## zeeprogrammer

Hey Robert and Alan...thanks.

I've seen a couple or more tools used to tram the mill...that's the way I'll (try to) go.
As for the 'tool' we were working on...not quitting it...but not at top of list.

I only started this hobby (or any kind of machining) a few months ago. It's very much a challenge and if I get hung up too much...I'll stagnate...and who knows when I'll continue. I know my history. I don't want that to happen. I have enough risk over the next few months with some upcoming life-changing events and there's already been some recent intrusions from 'life'.

So...let's see what I can do...hmm...this forum is about engines...


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## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ... if I get hung up too much...I'll stagnate...and who knows when I'll continue. I know my history. I don't want that to happen.



I'm the same way, as soon as I lose momentum, I'm sunk. 

I'm working on getting past it, but I'll set a project aside when it gets to a point where I need materials that I can't find, or afford. There's so much stuff I want to build...


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hey Robert and Alan...thanks.
> 
> I've seen a couple or more tools used to tram the mill...that's the way I'll (try to) go.
> As for the 'tool' we were working on...not quitting it...but not at top of list.
> 
> I only started this hobby (or any kind of machining) a few months ago. It's very much a challenge and if I get hung up too much...I'll stagnate...and who knows when I'll continue. I know my history. I don't want that to happen. I have enough risk over the next few months with some upcoming life-changing events and there's already been some recent intrusions from 'life'.
> 
> So...let's see what I can do...hmm...this forum is about engines...



Starting to wonder if you went out and sat on the railroad tracks you been so quiet. Good to see your return.

Stagnate? never, and Ive got the barn full of unfinished projects to prove it Ha!

Square up tour mill, you could make a simple tool ,cough cough, like the one I popped out for my lathe/mill/drill press/boat anchor above, and get to building that next engine. You seem to really enjoy the challenge and it shows. You get others to thinking and participate in the conversations. Dont stop now.

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer

I'll be a happy guy if I can get to half your skill level Robert.
Thanks.


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'll be a happy guy if I can get to half your skill level Robert.
> Thanks.



Dont knock yourself, you followed a plan and carried it to completion, all I do is avoid cutting my fingers off, then stand in the kitchen so tall and proud, saying "Look honey at what I made!" cant repeat her comments.

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> then stand in the kitchen so tall and proud, saying "Look honey at what I made!" cant repeat her comments.



Yeah, always a mistake to think the better half is interested in 'everything' you do. I'm happy that she's interested in 'anything' I do. Real happy.

I mean 'my' better half. I'm not saying your better half is interested in what I do...or that I'm not happy she's interested in what you do.....I'll shut up now. You know what I mean.


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## zeeprogrammer

For grins I rigged up a couple of 1-2-3 blocks on the mill. One on top of the other and clamped to the table. Then a DTI in the spindle.

Moved the spindle up and down and clocked the top block. Can't reach the bottom block but that's okay.

As someone else said on the forum...breath on it and it changes. I don't see how I'll ever get this adjusted well enough.

Anyway...over the 1st top half of the block, the DTI changes by about +/-2 to 3 thou. As I go further down, the DTI 'suddenly' moves by nearly 15 thou.

That tells me there's something in the way in the dovetail/gib that is pushing the head to the side.

Will I ever be happy with this?

Anyway...someone somewhere talked about using brass strips for gibs. Also, shims to tram in Y. Anybody know where I can get more detailed information? How to make the gibs? Where to put the shims?

And then there's the lathe. The compound slide...if you push on it, the near side will lift up. I've tried adjusting the gib screws but anymore and the slide won't move. Thoughts? Another new gib?

I think I'm going to break the machines down completely and try another clean up. Any suggestions?

How often do you break a machine down? The only thing I seem to see people doing is tramming the mill.

I sometimes think that when people say they get a machine adjusted to .001, that's when they're standing 10 feet away, doors and windows closed, no wind, novibrations. Otherwise, on these (granted, little) machines...there just ain't no way.

When I was in robotics...repeatability was more desirable than accuracy. Once you were repeatable, you could compensate more easily for accuracy. What's the story here?

Ah well...


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## zeeprogrammer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> the DTI changes by about +/-2 to 3 thou. As I go further down, the DTI 'suddenly' moves by nearly 15 thou.



I don't belong on this forum. That, or I need to see the eye doctor.
Rechecked the DTI. It's in tenths of a thou.

I was a whole decade off. That's pretty significant.

10 years ago I could do things I can't do today.
10 years ago my body had things it doesn't have anymore.
10 years ago my body didn't have things it now has.
but...10 years ago I had 10 years less knowledge and life.

On the upside...this has renewed my excitement.
On the downside...if anyone wants to tell me to 'get off'...I wouldn't blame them...but I won't get off. They'll have to deal with it...or get a moderator/administrator to knock me off.

For Vernon...drat, darn it, fooey, rats, crap, and gee whiz.


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## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Rechecked the DTI. It's in tenths of a thou.
> For Vernon...drat, darn it, fooey, rats, crap, and gee whiz.


All I'm gonna say is "Congrats on buying a great DTI." 
Tenths indicators are all I use, at work or at home... great for making (the appearance of) a mountain out of a molehill.



One one hand, they're fussy, fidgety things, and half the shop asks me why I use them. On the other hand... the other half of the shop comes to me to borrow one. ;D


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## vlmarshall

SO... what engine are you building? ;D


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I don't belong on this forum. That, or I need to see the eye doctor.
> Rechecked the DTI. It's in tenths of a thou.
> 
> I was a whole decade off. That's pretty significant.
> 
> 10 years ago I could do things I can't do today.
> 10 years ago my body had things it doesn't have anymore.
> 10 years ago my body didn't have things it now has.
> but...10 years ago I had 10 years less knowledge and life.
> 
> On the upside...this has renewed my excitement.
> On the downside...if anyone wants to tell me to 'get off'...I wouldn't blame them...but I won't get off. They'll have to deal with it...or get a moderator/administrator to knock me off.
> 
> For Vernon...drat, darn it, fooey, rats, crap, and gee whiz.



Whats a decimal point anyway? The bride moves it over to the right every time she wants a "Ten Spot"


So what did this tell you about your machine, a ten of a thou movement is but a fly poop. Tap the spindle with your finger, see it it changes. And if you got but a thou and a half max change, the question is "Can you live with it?"

I'd be tickled pink if those numbers were mine on the lathe, there not, I aint, boohoo me 

You can chase that thousands of an inch all over the shop, find it, kill it, and his cousin will awake, and then his cousin, and then . . . Does it really have an effect upon what your doing today? 

As with all equipment their is a margin of error to be dealt with, the operator knowing the machine can workaround those deviations.

Me ranting, turning itty bitty pieces, even a thou seems to be too much off ARRG!

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer

Vernon  said:
			
		

> SO... what engine are you building?



Darn you.

The main project is the Elderberry Mill. That will be a thread similar to (but hopefully better than) the Launch Engine thread.

At the same time...I've gotten hooked on that Rockin' Engine. Primarily because I've been looking for something that I can blow ;D. It's small and I must heed Marv's warnings. I'll be watching Foozer.

Also, going to take another run at the indicator holders. I don't like giving up on things unless I'm paid to or realize no one else cares anymore.

It's slow going right now...life's intrusions. It may not be until September when things loosen up.



Ah....Robert...speak of the Newbie. Just saw your post. Yeah exactly. I've been a bit paralyzed lately but getting past it. (And, as I mentioned, life's intrusions aren't helping.)

Thanks all.


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## zeeprogrammer

Time to clip a loose thread...

While waiting for some stuff to continue on the mill engine...I thought I'd 'finish' this...

As some of you may recall...I went about trying to make some half-joints.
A lot of help from Robert (Foozer) got me a good design...but a good execution eluded me. Mistakes included using aluminum (despite Marv's warnings) and using drill bits rather than reamers (cause my mill didn't have enough Z).

So here's another go. This time I used 12L14. I still had a problem with Z on the mill so I put them in the 4-jaw on the lathe and did my best to indicate them in. Difficult since I had nothing that would fit in the hole nicely to indicate on. But I got close enough and reamed them. Reamed them good.

I also made the nuts from 12L14. Chopped two pieces and used each one to make two nuts. Put them on the rotary table of the mill to cut the indents (two nuts at a time). I don't know what I did wrong (although Marv will be quick to remind me of poor skill at measuring) but the cuts didn't result in the distance between cuts as I had figured. Then parted the nuts off. That went really well now that I had re-adjusted the lathe. (See lessons below.)

They came out pretty good...






So...since I was experimenting...I thought I'd try blackening them.
I poured some oil in a ceramic planter I had (don't tell wife!).
Used stiff wire to hold a part and used a propane torch to get it bright red.
Then dropped it in. (See more lessons below.)

Wow! I'd never done this.






Well...that was cool. Now I'm going to have to do the machinist clamps and jacks I made a few months ago!






Some new lessons, some lessons relearned, some lessons reinforced

1: Find the sweet spot on lathe speed when parting off. When its foundparting is less of a sweet sorrow. Often is slower than you think.
2: Dont loosen draw bar completely and then use mallet to bash it and release the collet. Instead, loosen it a littlethen bash itthen loosen it completely. Less damage to threads.
3: Don't use a ceramic pot. The oil gets hot because of the hot parts being dropped in. It could crack on you.
4: When first starting out (i.e. no machining experience like me) it is very worthwhile to break-down and readjust the lathe/mill between projects. I've gotten a lot happier with the lathe and am looking forward to doing the mill over.
5: Keep rethinking the process...I missed some opportunities to knock off sharp edges...not a problem this time...but need to remember in the future.

[EDIT: I used clean oil by the way. Thanks VM for asking.]

We now return to our irregularly scheduled programming...


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## steamer

Looks great to me Zee!....feel free to wip up another set.....I'll send an envelope ;D


Dave


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## ariz

zee you are becoming a skilled machinist day after day 

and I'm starting to be a little envious 


joking a'part, well done job


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dave and ariz...your comments mean a lot to me.
Yep...making progress slowly but surely and this forum helps a lot.


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## arnoldb

Well done Zee Thm:


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## Kermit

Looking good Zee. ;D

When you dropped the hot parts in the oil, were they still glowing red or had they cooled back down to invisible by that time? Trying to get an idea of how hot you had the metal.

Kermit


----------



## tmuir

I do like blackening parts, they look so much nicer black.
I only ever heat my parts to blue hot and that seems to do the trick for me.
Is there any benefit to heat to red hot?

All I use to hold the oil is a round tin that used to hold baby formula.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

Kermit...When they got red (or mostly red) I immediately dropped them in. They still looked red as I put them. However, I can't say I got the entire part the same color. I figured when at least half of it was red...the rest couldn't be far different. (But truthfully...I was a bit nervous as this was the first time.)

tmuir...I don't know the benefit...I suspect part of it is like boiling water...you know the temperature by looking at it. I can't say I saw blue hot. The parts darkened a bit when heating them...but I would have no idea what the temperature is.

Thanks all.


----------



## Noitoen

I've heard that gunsmiths have some kind of chemical in "spray form" that blackens parts without heating them up. It's difficult to obtain here in Portugal.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Noitoen,

I've seen some posts where members have talked about chemically changing the color but I haven't gotten to the point of learning more about it...yet.


----------



## tmuir

Noitoen  said:
			
		

> I've heard that gunsmiths have some kind of chemical in "spray form" that blackens parts without heating them up. It's difficult to obtain here in Portugal.



You can buy liquid or cream to wipe on to chemically blacken guns.
I bought the cream as its meant to be better as I plan in the future to make a clock that will have a mild steel frame that will be too big for me to oil blacken and I don't want to risk warping the frame with heat.

I haven't tried it yet so I don't know how good it will be.


----------



## Kermit

Tryin not to veer offtopic too much. Tmuir, and anyone else interested in steel finishing. Passivation -I'm aware that almost all of the equipment at my company which doesn't receive paint or a coating of some sort, gets passivated. Most often this is a special mixture of proprietary ingredients in a base usually of Nitric acid, but always some type of acid bath. Special corrision inhibitors blah blah blah. But what I'm getting at is a process called simply "passivation" by the guys at work is used when nothing else is put on the metal. 

Anyone else have more experience with the process I'm refering to?


----------



## Kermit

Never mind. Passivation is for STAINLESS steels only it seems.

SOrry for the offtopic, 
Kermit

from here: http://www.iftworldwide.com/solutions/passivation.htm


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## zeeprogrammer

No problem being off topic...I'm usually off myself...

But this looks like an interesting topic and worthy of its own thread...anybody care to start it?

Kermit...just saw you posted while I was typing.


----------

