# #$%# Chinese tooling



## tmuir (Apr 24, 2008)

Before I start a flame war on the merits or not of Chinese tools I'm just talking about one tool I have not the quality of all of Chinese tools.
When I got my lathe I decided on carbide insert tools so I didn't have to sharpen them.
I bought a moderately priced set of tools and have used them for a few weeks.

Last night I was getting inconsistent results with one of them so I had a closer look and noticed the screw that held it in place had come loose. Didn't think much of this at first and just did it back up whilst in the tool holder and attempted to cut again but got terrible results.
So I removed the tool and had a closer look at it and went to tighten it up again and then I saw what was wrong.

The hole the screw threaded into to hold the insert in place was in the wrong place by a fraction of a mm.
This meant there was space on either side of the insert so when you did up the screw the last fraction of the turn, it actually rotated the insert by about 5 degrees, which also meant the cutting edge was now no longer supported.
Obviously when the insert was first put in it was held at the correct angle by some jig which is not possible when doing it up by hand.
So basically the tool is useless. 
I returned the tools to where I got them from today and the shop owner matter of factly stated, 'oh thats common with that cheap set, you just have to fiddle with it to get it right or maybe put it in your mill and mill it out a bit'
At which point I told him I don't have a mill (We won't worry about the fact that milling the tool wouldn't fix it and if I could do that I would just of scratch made one)
I asked him if he could replace it as it was useless to me and he said no he had to send it back to the supplier.
So now I have a long weekend and I don't have my main cutting tool. 

Needless to say when I get it back I won't be making future purchases from the shop.
When I bought that set he actually recommended them to me as the best tools for my lathe and as I was handing over the cash didn't say. 'By the way these are cheap Chinese tools that will possibly give you problems'
If he had I wouldn't of bought them.

Enough of my griping though, I guess this gives me an incentive to have a go at grinding myself a tool on my HSS blanks I have sitting in my draw.


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## zeusrekning (Apr 24, 2008)

I also won't go into the poor quality of Chinese work. Or how we are digging ourselves a hole , or how we should buy American. Because I would be a hypocrite. Traverse last sales flyer had sets of transfer punches, the import # sizes were approx. $7.50 a set and the TTC Made in America were approx $75.00  I just couldn't see justifying the price difference. Buddy at work just bought a 150cc import 4-wheeler new for approx $1000. He got it home Saturday. Sunday the exhaust studs had fell out and the timing had jumped. It was backfiring real bad and the exhaust was glowing red. 
Tim


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## DICKEYBIRD (Apr 24, 2008)

Sheesh, I just thought that's the way they are.

I replaced the screw with a good 2-56 socket head screw (had to turn a taper on the backside to match the insert) and added some shim stock to take up the "slack" between the insert and the toolholder pocket. Works a treat.


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## rake60 (Apr 24, 2008)

My 3/8" shank carbide insert tool set was made in India.
Same price as the China made tools. (Cheap)

The screw in the 60 degree tool worked loose and I didn't notice it
until I actually saw the insert moving while cutting the recess in a 
flywheel blank. By then the seat was already trashed. 
The tool is pretty much useless now.

I had the exact same thing happen with an American made tool that cost
7 times as much. Both cases were my fault. I know better then to start
cutting without checking the screw. When you get those little tools hot
that small screw expands with the heat. When it cools back down again
it's most likely going to be loose.

The American Manufactured set is $143.80

The set I bought from CME Tools was $19.80

When it's time to replace the whole set the order will probably be going to CME.

Rick


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## Stan (Apr 24, 2008)

I have found that Chinese tools are 'pay your money and take your chances'. I have usually been lucky and got tools that did the job I bought them for. Since Chinese tools usually cost less than 10% of the price of high quality European or US made tools, just throw away the ones that don't work and try again.

Most of the members of this board would not be in the hobby if they had to buy high quality tools. There would not be all the quality tools and tooling on ebay if not for the imports that are bought for commercial use. 

Rick: You type faster than me. ;D


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## rake60 (Apr 24, 2008)

It is impossible to keep this thread from becoming a "Why do we buy import"

I rattled a lot of cages on another forum about a year ago when I interupted a 
Pacific Rim bashing party. All I did was ask a few questions of the members.

To be perfectly exact the post was:

_"Who among us is willing to work for $4.00/Hr

Who among us is willing to pay more than $30,000 for a new 1/2 ton pick up truck, 
or more than $300 for a video game system for their kids?

We want to earn big, and buy for less.
And, keep that bottom line figure as blue as possible 
to please the stock holders. 
We'd make a little more if we'd out source a little.... 

So, who among us is to blame?

It IS all about the $$$$ We want MORE, but don't think it should COST anything?!?!?!?

Rick"_

It took *weeks* for the flaming to end. LOL
I was NOT trolling! I had typed a truthful statement in a forum where that was
not acceptable. It is just one of the many reasons this forum exists today.

Rick


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## BobWarfield (Apr 25, 2008)

A couple of thoughts I have:

- If you care about the metallurgy (e.g. cutting tools), the "feel" (e.g. the way a nice set of Mitutoyo digital calipers feel compared to the $12 imports), ultimate precision ("I need tenths, not thousandths"), or if the thing is complex/failure prone (Tig welder), don't buy a cheap import. For all else, save a buck. It's pretty surprising how good a lot of import stuff is.

- The idea that it all comes out of the same factory and there are just different paint jobs and markups is wrong. There really is a difference in these tools. Make it a point to scout them out a little bit unless you don't care.

- There are some "Made in USA" things that are as cheap or cheaper than the imports and very good! MariTool is making great stuff. Their R8 shank ER collet chucks are cheaper than Bison and just as good or better. How does he do it? When you're fighting labor costs, you have to get ahead with automation, e.g. CNC. The Chinese are not far behind on that, but there is still a chance and it minimizes the labor cost advantage.

- We want to call ourselves machinists. To me, that means we can fix it if it ain't quite right. Doesn't mean we necessarily like to have to do that, but it is something we ought to be able to do. Witness the stuff I did to get my El Cheapo collet chuck to a high degree of accuracy. If I had just slapped it onto a loose fitting backplate, I would have been very disappointed. But, I "fixed" its warts with quite a lot of effort at my end and got a collet chuck with 2 or 3 tenths runout for circa $160 versus what Bison wants for an Adjust-tru or heaven forbid something even more expensive. Just the darned Royal collet closers have gone out of sight. So if the tool isn't quite right, tune it up. You can't do that for everything (I'd hate to try to tune up a tenths DTI in my shop!), but you have to consider it. That and making your own tooling too.

Rick and others have also given us the "real machinist's life" stories about lathes that are expensive iron, but have been in production so long or don't have the right soft jaws that it's up to the machinist to make them perform to tolerances. Choose your poison: a not quite right new machine or a really superbly made but worn out old machine. Either one can be just your cup of tea or your nightmare. It's up to you to choose which is which.

Cheers!

BW


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## bob ward (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm as guilty as the next person of buying cheap, but I have figured out that when it comes to inserts and insert holders it is best to buy name brands, Kennametal, Sumitomo, Sandvik etc.

$3 no name inserts v $7 Kennametal inserts? It goes against the grain but I go for the $7 ones.
A set of 6 no name holders for $90 v one $90 name brand holder? I grit my teeth and buy the name brand.
If it doesn't work its not cheap!

***************************************
Re the dud holder you returned to the supplier, there are Australian federal and state consumer protection laws to the effect that goods have to be fit for the pupose for which they are sold, ie they have to perform.

Getting a refund or a replacement for the defective item is entirely at your discretion, it is a matter between yourelf and the seller only, the supplier does not come into it. The seller will be fully aware of this and is stalling you by involving his/her supplier.


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## tmuir (Apr 25, 2008)

bob ward  said:
			
		

> Getting a refund or a replacement for the defective item is entirely at your discretion, it is a matter between yourelf and the seller only, the supplier does not come into it. The seller will be fully aware of this and is stalling you by involving his/her supplier.



Thanks,
I am aware of my rights via law and have used that big stick in the past for other defective items I have bought (Not machining related) but always save that as a last resort. The tool has been sent back to the supplier so should get a replacement next week.
I was just annoyed with him as when I bought them he recommended them as the best tools for my lathe and then when it went faulty I got the. 'What do you expect when you buy cheap tools'
Probably about 70 or 80% of all my machinery are Chinese made and I can see the difference in quality between them and the more expensive stuff but the Chinese made ones were all that fitted my budget. I can live with them not being as accurate as ones that cost 3 times as much because I didn't pay the extra to get that accuracy it was my choice. But a tool not working for its job I won't put up with.

Pretty much only my jewellery making tools and the tools I inherited from my grandfather and my great grandfather are not Chinese made. When your playing with $700 worth on gold at scrap value in a bangle the extra $50 spent on those soft nylon pliers or hardened and polished hammer seems like a good insurance policy to stop you damaging an expensive item.


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## John S (Apr 25, 2008)

It's purely down to cost.

If one holder from say Kenametal costs $80 why do you think it's possible to buy a set for $20 ?

Somewhere someone is taking a shortcut. Now whether that's acceptable and livable with is another matter and requires more investigation.

Personally I feel that a simple holder, because that's what they are for $80 up to $200 is excessive when you consider it's just a piece of steel, mass produced with a hole and pocket and hardened. Compared to say a drill chuck arbor that hardened and ground on two accurate tapers and cost $8.

Often if buying mail order you can't compare or inspect but the obvious give away on the no good cheap tooling is the pocket.

Has it been milled with a normal cutter and has vertical sides ? if so then reject these out of hand. You need a pocket with a tapered side to match the cutter. [edit ] should read insert.
Second thing to take into account but this can be altered, is whether the pocket allows the insert to sit too deep.

The insert needs to be slightly proud so that any movement / load / fretting is taken on the side and not on an unused cutting edge.

Those very cheap sets have a straight sided and deep pocket so the inset load is all taken on a line contact - the next cutting edge.

This leads on into my next part of the post.

The TPUN type triangular inserts with 3 cutting edges at 120 degrees are about the cheapest insert to buy so why not make your own.

Some tears ago a customer of mine who makes oil rig boring machines was moaning that everytime he sends a machine out he supplies 5 tools with it, all quality ones and when they come back they are all missing. Now these are chargeable so no big deal but he was just moaning that probably 4 unused ones went missing and it was a costly waste.

With this in mind I copied these holders and CNC'd the pockets, had them hardened and blacked and still got a good price for them. Now CNC makes it easy but a simple TPUN pocket can be done on a rotary table without much work.
You can buy the tapered sided cutter from J&L, off the shelf.

Once you work out a sequence for doing a pocket suck as this then any shape tool is at your disposal. Boring bars, left hand, right hand, chamfering etc.






.


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## IanN (Apr 25, 2008)

Hi,

Regarding the amount paid for items it is important to remember that the sale price is simply set at the highest level that the manufacturer can get away with.

In the UK electronic equipment is sold at a far higher price that the same items are sold for in other parts of the world, because people in the UK are willing to pay.

The current price of diesel fuel on the forecourt in the UK is about £1.10/litre - that translates to $8.31/US gallon. A lot of that is tax, but it is the same stuff that is pumped out over in the USA for about half the price.

While people are prepared to pay high prices, manufacturers will be only too pleased to charge high prices.

Ian.


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## tmuir (Apr 25, 2008)

True which is why I seem to be buying more and more items from overseas vis the internet, it seems we pay a premium in Australia and quiet often for smaller items its cheaper to get them from the US or UK than buy them locally even after postage.


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## Stan (Apr 25, 2008)

I found a "What the market will bear" this week. Wanting to bid on an ebay item in the US. The ad said the seller shipped international and international buyer should get shipping quote prior to bidding. I requested a shipping quote to my address in Canada. My reply was to go to UPS.com and get price. I had to send a second request to get the weight (53 pounds). UPS.com counter rate came out at US$63.80.

I called my local UPS Store which handles various carriers and asked for the cheapest rate she could get. She phoned me back and said UPS was the cheapest at Cdn$110.00 from my home to the seller. I questioned her if it was the same from the seller to my home as from my home to the seller. She said it should be the same but she would confirm that and call me back. When she called back she didn't want to give me the US price but eventually conceded that it was much cheaper in the opposite direction.

I then noticed that the UPS site states that the rates quoted are based on the origin (ship from) country. This item is in the North-East US and I am in Western Canada. UPS has the option of running west across the US and then jumping north or jumping north and running west across Canada. No matter how you do it, how can the price double?


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## Julian (Apr 28, 2008)

Hi All,

Forget all the tool holders. Buy decent inserts and make your own. I made six for my Denford fo less than the price of a new "decent" one. If it gets trashed or is no good I just make another one. I will not buy any more. I just buy the inserts.

Julian


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## rake60 (Apr 28, 2008)

Julian  said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> Forget all the tool holders. Buy decent inserts and make your own. I made six for my Denford fo less than the price of a new "decent" one. If it gets trashed or is no good I just make another one. I will not buy any more. I just buy the inserts.
> 
> Julian



Now that's a point to consider.
I have a page from Steve Bedair's 9 X 20 lathe site bookmarked. _"Indexable Turning Tools"_
I've never attempted it, but it's on the "to do" list now.

Rick


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## BobWarfield (Apr 28, 2008)

Yep, can be done and it's even pretty easy. Here's an indexable dovetail for the mill I made:






Turn that little booger on the lathe, make the cut shown on the mill, and presto:






Indexable dovetail cutter. 

Worth researching the literature on commercial holders. They'll often give you all the geometry info you need. That and a little time on eBay to see what inserts are easy to come by and which ones are expensive and you are ready.

Cheers,

BW


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## wmf138 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hi all 
a interesting thing happened today I was playing around with some indexable carbide tips trying differant things as for lube goes
and a mate of mine jokeing around said to try useing the polish wax I use on the buff so I grabed the block (grey one) I use for the first polish when polishing alloys with he lathe spinning slow rubbed a coat over it and the done a cut and the finnish was better and there was no mess 
so if anyone would like to try this please let me know if the results are better or worse
the other thing to the tip seemed to be cooler

Cheers 
Wayne


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