# Leaded steel



## Rudy

I have access to some "leaded steel". I'm told it's easy to machine, but not weldable. Would this be an alternative to cast iron for cylinders?


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## Charles Lamont

Rudy said:


> I have access to some "leaded steel". I'm told it's easy to machine, but not weldable. Would this be an alternative to cast iron for cylinders?


Cylinders for what?


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## Rudy

My next (seccond) project will be a Farm Boy hit and miss engine. I'm also thinking general material compatibility. If leaded steel was compatible with aluminium pistons for instance.


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## doug11k

Rudy,
It's fun to machine bt has little corrosion resistance. Not sure how it would react to combustion products.


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## WOB

If you are talking about 12L14 leaded steel or similar,  it makes good cylinders for IC engines of all types.  I have made many in the last 15 years and have had no problems.

WOB


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## tornitore45

If coupled with an aluminum piston the piston must have cast Iron rings.
The piston should have enough clearance to have a sliding fit (about 1/1000 per inch diameter) after accounting for the differential expansion.

Aluminum 21-25  ppm/*C
Steel   15 ppm/*C


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## pickleford75

12L14 leaded is very acceptable for IC cylinders.... that what is specified in Lee Hodgens radials which use 2024 aluminum for pistons


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## Rudy

Thanks guys. This is really usefull information.


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## Wizard69

Consider yourself lucky!    Leaded steel is well known for good machining characteristics thus is used widely where better grades of steel are not needed.


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## tornitore45

Leaded steel easily finish to mirror, to me it feels "slippery" like lubricated in line with the fact that the chip slide easily over the tool edge. This property makes if desirable for cylinders BUT it rust as you look at it which makes it undesirable unless is kept coated with oil, most probable with an internal combustion engine.


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## Engineeringtech

I work with leaded steel a lot.  It has spoiled me.  I don't want to cut anything else.  It doesn't rust that fast, if the surface finish is fine....  And besides, your cylinder is going to be lubricated, is it not?


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## Rudy

Since I posted the question I have done som parts with leaded steel my selves. I agree. Very nice to work with.
However, I have only some 75mm round pieces and have to work a lot to make smaller parts.
This is my Farm Boy cylinder.
Rudy


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## werowance

i love working with 12L14  you are lucky to have free access to it.  

don't know about welding it,  but it silver brazes just fine.  or at least it did for me.

if you hold the heat on it for a long time you will see it start to sweat a little.  pretty sure that's the lead in it starting to melt but that never caused any issue with me on brazing it.

and the stuff seems to rust faster than cast iron will,  but also seems to polish back back up quickly for me.  but ive never left the stuff out in the rain or anything.   probably wouldn't use it for say a water cooling jacket or anything -  but air/oil cooled i would think it would be fine for in that case.


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## jayville

Hi all,,back many years ago I used to weld bright leaded steel with arc...the electrodes where called sulphur rod here in oz perhaps they have a different name elsewhere.if we didn't use these rods we would end up with a lot of porosity,I would weld required items for the machinists and they would machine them up with no problem...cheers clem


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## kiwi2

Hi,
     I'm also a fan for leaded steel because of the fine finish you get on the lathe. I haven't welded it but I have successfully brazed it using bronze with no problems.
It really does corrode. I used a piece of 1" round as an axle for the wheel on my wheelbarrow which is stored outside. After a year or so, there was less than 1/4" left - it was really spectacularly bad.
Regards,
Alan


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## Engineeringtech

I don't think most people know most of the small threaded fasteners used in electronic devices, watches, etc. used to be made of leaded steel, precisely because it machines so well, including the fine pitch threads.

McMaster sells 12L14, and 41L14 "free cutting" steels.   The latter is as easy cutting leaded version of 4140, and is stronger than 12L14.   They also sell 1215 alloy which is a non leaded "free cutting" steel.  Does not cut as easily, or leave as nice a finish as the leaded steels, but worth a try if you're bothered by the very minimal amount of lead alloyed into 12L14 and 41L14.  I should note that free machining brasses also contain lead.

As for the corrosion, I wasn't advocating using it in an outdoor application.  It does not rust any faster than non-leaded steels, and the fact that you can put a better finish on it delays the corrosion.  Less surface irregularity, the less opportunity for rust to start.  

You CAN case harden leaded steel, but it doesn't absorb the carbon as readily as some unleaded steels.


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## Herbiev

I always use leaded steel for anything requiring machining   A real pleasure to work with


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## Engineeringtech

Just for the reference... If you are concerned about the lead in leaded steel, you can get 12T14, a free machining steel with tin in it.  Very hard to find though.   I got a sample years ago.  Was from a company in Canada I believe.


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## Shopgeezer

What constitutes “stressproof” steel?  Is it an alloy or a temper?  Is it also leaded?  Our old instructor would use nothing but “stress” for projects and considered only one version of it the best. It was only available from one place in the US.


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## Cogsy

The only stressproof I'm aware of is an 1144 alloy but I believe it is also tempered. So (as far as I know) not all 1144 is stressproof but all stressproof is 1144. The actual term 'stressproof' might even be a trademark on a particular alloy from one manufacturer. Last time I looked it was not available in Australia, but it is fantastic stuff to machine.


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## kquiggle

OnlineMetals has a good description:

https://www.onlinemetals.com/productguides/steelguide.cfm

Here's an excerpt:

*1144 (Stressproof-equivalent) steel*
This material is actually pretty cool, at least for steel. It is a higher-strength alloy than 1018 or A36, but in addition has improved ductility as well. The chief feature of 1144 steel, however, is that it has very low distortion or warpage after machining due to a combination of its chemistry, method of manufacture, and heat treatment. Finally, 1144 is relatively easy to machine, with a machinability rating of 83% of AISI 1212 steel.​


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## Charles Lamont

In the UK an 'Emergency number' for steel grading was introduced during WW2. It numbered steels from 1 to 58 in increasing alloy content. A 1955 revision of the original 1941 British Standard, BS 970, introduced postscript letters to the series.  In spite of this standard being long since obsoleted, several times over, steel grades in the UK are still widely referred to by En number, becauses the system is simple. Low-carbon, low-alloy, free-cutting, leaded mild steel is En1A.


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## rmd55

A specialty steel product produced with an innovative process. StressProof® is produced using a proprietary process that draws the bar through a special die under heavy draft, then stress relieves it in a precisely controlled furnace.  Trademark of Niagara LaSalle, may be why it is not available down under.
If you look at the micro-structure of leaded steel  you can see the lead dispersed as small pockets of free lead much like carbon in cast iron. Not dissolved in the iron so it acts as a dry lube
Richard


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## DJP

Stress relief by controlled heating is still required after welding. I doubt that for hobby machining there is any stress induced but if there is a weld, removing stress before final machining I thought was common practice. When welding a sub assembly there isn't a stress proof steel at least not one that you would bet the company on.
A friend owns a business making jigs for the automotive assembly process. He removes stress after welding and before final machining.


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## harborfreight8x12

My personal experience with 1144 StressProof steel.  Years ago, my brother-in-law broke the drive axles in both of the motors in his bariatric power wheelchair.  I needed a material that meet the requirements for drive axles.  1144 StressProof was the fit.  It machined well and the motors served until Medicare replaced them with new motors two years later.  So, JMHO, go with 1144.


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## GailInNM

1144 is also available as TGP (Turned Ground Polished) for use in Swiss style CNC lathes.  It costs more of course but can save considerable time when making  some parts as the OD is accurate  enough for bearing fits with out any additional work.
Gail in NM


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## mohavegun

My favored screw machine stock is 12L14 and I do my own centerless grinding when necessary, I operate 3 Brown & Sharpe screw machines and a Royal Master centerless grinder in my shop.  I also like 1045 stress proof.


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## mohavegun

Has anyone out there tried PEEK plastic as a material for making piston rings for steam engines?  This is an interesting plastic, machines like brass and when burned the chip more resembles glass chips than ash.  Wear qualities are off the scale for plastic and it is good with the heat in steam engines...   
PEEK is polyetheretherketone.


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## Shopgeezer

Where do you get it?


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## john futter

Any proffessional plastics supplier will get it for you
It makes Teflon look very cheap


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## karlw144

Just googled it.PEEK 2” diameter rod, 12” long. $273 plus s&h


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## Shopgeezer

Ouch!  Pricey. Teflon is cheaper.


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## rmd55

That's why McMaster sells it in 3", 6", 9"as well as foot lengths to 8ft


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## mohavegun

Shopgeezer said:


> Where do you get it?


Hello,
The shop I worked for bought it from "McMaster Carr" corporation in Santa Anna California, they ship worldwide and carry all sorts of things, find them at Mcmastercarr.com .

We made big pump rings out of it, the pumps were working in a steel mill in Kingman, AZ.  The PEEK rings outwore the silicon bronze rings by a factor of two times life.  The environment was the pumps handled cooling water for the rolling line, the water was heavily contaminated with acids, chemicals and steel particles from the steel, rust, dirt and sand!  Some of these pump rings or lantern seals were more than a foot in diameter.  Yes, the material is expensive but it is extremely durable, makes Teflon look like butter!

Rod


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## mohavegun

mohavegun said:


> My favored screw machine stock is 12L14 and I do my own centerless grinding when necessary, I operate 3 Brown & Sharpe screw machines and a Royal Master centerless grinder in my shop.  I also like 1045 stress proof.


  Just a further comment about 12L14,  it was originally designed for screw machine production for the automotive industry.  It is in the 100% machinability index for steels, most others are compared to it!  I buy for my shop from FRY steel corp in California...  They generally only sell in specific quantity lots but will sell small units, expect to pay for packaging and handling on small orders.  I stock it in my shop in .130 and .343 diameters and produce parts which are .125 and .312 diameters from it.  I centerless grind this material and will sell small quantities if you are interested.  I do not want to make a business of it but it is something available in my shop.  I also have 1/4" 6061 aluminum and 26o series brass HEX barstock and can supply that as well if anyone is having problems finding such.


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## kquiggle

McMaster Carr has everything - but you pay top dollar. If you shop around the Internet at the "usual suspects" you can find it much cheaper. I found 3/4" Diameter PEEK 450G Rod (12" length) for $25 without looking too hard. Just search ebay or amazon for "peek rod".


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## Johno1958

Here in Australia I can not seem to get 12L14 steel but can get S1214 which I believe to have sulphur instead of lead in it. I have yet to use it but wonder at the difference
in machining of the two. I also bought some 12mm PEEK of Ebay,  15 dollars per 200mm from China .Unfortunately I could not get white it is the natural color which is
a very light tan color.
John


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## Cogsy

mohavegun said:


> The shop I worked for bought it from "McMaster Carr" corporation in Santa Anna California, they ship worldwide and carry all sorts of things, find them at Mcmastercarr.com .


Unfortunately McMaster Carr will only ship internationally to their "established customers" (meaning something like companies that had an account prior to them making this decision) and refuse all orders from new, non-account, international customers. They won't allow new international customers to open an account either. I'm pretty sure they won't even ship to Canada let alone the rest of the world. It's a pity, they seem to have a good range of stuff.


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## Johno1958

I am finding that a lot with US gear even on Ebay. A 10 dollar item and they charge 150 bucks or more to post it. I think they have got such a large domestic market we 
would not be worth the hassle down here in Australia not to mention the amount of times they must get ripped off by parcels not delivered or damaged.
Its a shame because of the lack of variety of tools and materials specially if you live in a regional area.
John


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## SailplaneDriver

You can get 12L14 from Hobby Metals in small quantities.


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## Hopper

Herbiev said:


> I always use leaded steel for anything requiring machining   A real pleasure to work with


Herbie, where are you buying leaded steel in Australia? My local supplier never heard of it.


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## SmithDoor

To weld you need to per heat very hot 
I have used 12L14 works great 

Dave 



Rudy said:


> I have access to some "leaded steel". I'm told it's easy to machine, but not weldable. Would this be an alternative to cast iron for cylinders?


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## Iampappabear

McMaster does still ship to Canada, purchased some items this week, however, we are an established customer and have been for about 4 years.  It must be a real pain to live in Australia when what is easily available in Europe and North America becomes almost a specialty item.  We have this issue to a degree in Canada but obliviously nothing like you do in Aussie.


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## hanermo3

I have welded lots of 12l14 parts ..
and it is technically semi-weldable -- aka can be done but won´t be good, pretty or structurally 100% sound (in theory).

Heavy heat works better.
My parts are massive, like 30x100 mm sections 2 m long.
7018 rod is better than 6011.
Thicker rod is better. 
4mm +/-, better than 3 mm, given enough amps on the welder.

I "feel" a hot preheated haz is probably much easier to do than a cold steel part.

The welds are not pretty and get inclusions - less with more heat.
They hold well and are structural, but with inclusions.


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## DJP

I get good results welding stainless when using stainless 310-16 or 316L rods. The slag floats to the top and is easily chipped away in big sections without inclusions. SS is a good conductor of electricity and heat which is why I like to weld with SS rods.

They also work well on cast iron when I have had to make repairs.

I suggest trying stainless rods.


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## john futter

stainless is an extremely poor conductor of heat and electricity which is one of the reasons why it is such a pleasure to weld
to prove my point try fusion welding of copper, gas or tig to see what I mean


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## DJP

Perhaps it's also the clean surface that makes it a pleasure to weld. I stick weld so that too may make a difference.


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