# Steam Donkey



## Captain Jerry

Well, I'm at the boat this weekend, getting her ready for sale. So I can't stop poking around the American Hoist & Derick steam donkey that is displayed at the marina. I'm taking lots of pictures and making lots of notes. The thing is mostly complete but rusted solid. I can't help thinking what a great project it would be, but I don't know if I have enough years left in me to get to it. I think I have seen a model on line somewhere but can't find it. 







If anyone is interested, I'll post some of the detail photos and some drawings from time to time. If anyone knows of a set of plans for this let me know.

Here is the first drawing. This is the big end of the con rod and is exactly the same as the cross head end. What do you call this type of connection?






By the way, as rusted as it is, I found about half of the two dozen grease cups could be unscrewed by hand and still had grease in them.

Jerry


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## cfellows

There is a similar engine modelled by Steve Peirce at 

http://www.floridaame.org/

Click on Gallery, then click on External Combustion Engine Models. The donkey is in the third row down on the left.

Chuck


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## Jeff02

You might give this a look.

http://www.powells.com/biblio/9780941653695

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1229


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## Tin Falcon

I have a copy of the vp book if you have any questions . 
If you want to build one well worth the $12 
Tin


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## Jeff02

Also "Donkey Engine by Roy Ozouf" started in the 1988 issue of Modeltec magazine, I have all issues of this series.
Roy's has a piston dia of .592 compaired to the 1" of the above mentioned engine. Just more FYI.

Another thing on my ToDo list, It never ends!


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## gbritnell

I believe Live Steam also ran an article many years back.
gbritnell


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## metal89

HI,
take a look at http://plan-ahead-designs.us/
I bought the plans they are well made.

Patrick


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## Tin Falcon

Patrick welcome
please post and intro in the welcome area tell us about yourself your shop and your interests aspirations and accomplishments in the hobby.
Tin


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## Harold Lee

Jeff02  said:
			
		

> You might give this a look.
> 
> http://www.powells.com/biblio/9780941653695
> 
> https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1229



This is incredible!! In November I was visiting my daughter and her family in Hillsboro, Oregon and we took a ride to the coast on highway 26. There is a place called camp 18 and they have a lot of steam and gasoline powered logging equipment. I was very impressed and intended on going back and getting some detailed photographs and build one. I did not realize that VP had a book on one. I am going to order it and start it after I complete my steam tractor and my Topsy Turvy and..... well you get the point. I would sure love to see someone decide to build one and post their progress during the build cycle. This board is the richest source of information and I cannot express how much I have gotten from others posts during their build. Takers???


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## Bernd

Another book that would be of interest to those that want more info on steam donkeys is a hard cover book by Merv Johnson, "In Search of Steam Donkeys" Logging equipment in Oregon. It's put out by Timber Times, Inc. P.O. Box 219 Hillsboro, OR 97123.

Bernd


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## Captain Jerry

Here is a pic of the grease cup open.






I'm just trying to figure this thing out. All of the steam piping is gone. There is no governor, no regulator. How did the operator run the engine? There is this. The lever seems to open stopcocks at both ends of both cylinders at the same time. I first thought thus was just to drain accumulated water but it sure would stop the engine at the cost of a lot of steam. If its just a drain, why does it need a control at the operators position? Is it an emergency pressure release? Here is the pic:






The pivot shaft goes through the frame and drives similar linkage on the other cylinder.

Jerry


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## Jeff02

Just found these on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Live-Steam...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45f1a8135c

http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Scal...wItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item53e0113b1f


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## BAH101

I have CD books on Clyde Iron works and American Hoist and all thier donkey engines have those drains and linkages. I do have pics of a Donkey engine made by Tyee Machinery Co out of Vancouver BC, (it is on display at Ladysmith on Vancouver island) and it does not have them. 
My guess it is the fastest way to stop the piston if the cable get fouled. Steam is cheaper than cable.


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## Captain Jerry

Jeff02

Thanks for the ebay links. Who woulda thought that there would be to online at the same time. Now I don't have to build one. I can just enter a bid!

BAH101

I think that's right. If it were just a maintenance item it wouldn't need all that linkage and convenience to the operator. I don't think it would be used for a fouled cable though. The drums are controlled with a clutch and brake and I would think the operator would just disengage the clutch if the cable fouled. If the clutch failed to disengage or other mechanical problems like a busted drive pinion happened, you might need to dump steam quickly.

Another couple of thoughts on this engine. Brunswick is a port city on the Georgia coast so this engine may have been used to handle lifting with a stiff leg derrick, either at the port or aboard ship. It is slightly different than either of the logging donkeys shown. The drum clutches use four segments rather than the two segment clutches on these models. Also the clutch levers and the foot brake levers are at least twice as long so I think it may have handled heavier loads. 

Strangely, with all of the moving parts so close to the operator, this hoist has guards over the hoist gears and there are bolts around the gear that appear to have held guards over the clutch mechanism. The guards are now gone and I suspect that they were pitched early in the life of this machine. They probably would have pitched the gear covers as well but they served to support the brake bands.

Jerry


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## steamer

Cylinder Drain cocks to let condensate out of the cylinder at start up.  Threre's four of them, two on each cylinder on both sides of the boiler, so running around turning them on and off while your trying to pay attention to the load your lifting/moving would be problematic.  Hence a central lever.


I suspect you will find it is connected to the cylinder drain cocks on the other side as well.

Nice piece.....savable too.... a little blue wrench persausion, clean up and some new hardware and the engine would run again.....I doubt the boiler would though.

Do take lots of pictures from all sides and some key dimensions with a tape measure.  That would be a great model subject.....though Bill Harris has done it, but not like that one....

Dave


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## Captain Jerry

Steamer

Thanks for the answer. It has the ring of first hand knowledge. You are right about the link to the other piston. All four drain cocks operated simultaneously with one lever. I think it would take more than the blue wrench to free up the works. This marina was built in 1995 and this was dragged out when the channel was dredged. Since then, the only attention it has had was to be hoisted up on the concrete piers in 2002. Thirty plus years submerged in salt marsh and fifteen years exposed to the atmosphere has taken its toll. With the steam pipes gone, the inlet ports on top of the cylinders are open. The drive pinion between the two hoist has been reduced to flakes. 

There are a few things that move. There is a gate valve with the stem intact that seems to be in working condition. The clutch lever on the main hoist moves a few degrees. This let me figure out how the shaft that the lever turns is driven against the shaft that forces the clutch pads to expand inside the drum. I am not sure if the operator had to hold pressure on the lever to keep the clutch engaged or if the clutch linkage knuckled over center. If it knuckled over, I don't see how it was disengaged.

I have taken lots of pictures and measurements and I have easy access if I need more. Another difference I have noticed is that the base of this unit seems to be made from castings bolted together instead of a welded fabrication from steel channel.

The main base is 8" high, 65" long, and 48" wide. The casting for support of the front drum adds another 15" in length.  The cylinder OD is 10" but I have no idea what the bore is. The stroke is 10" as measured at the crank (5" throw)

Jerry


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## BAH101

These 2 pages look like that Donkey engine. The 3rd I had to add
Bryan 

View attachment AmericanHoist.pdf


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## steamer

I headed up the team that restored this doctor engine.....it was dredged up from the Missouri..... IIRC.

http://www.neme-s.org/Mystic_Seaport_2008/DSC04187.JPG

Runs well....needed a lot of work.

Dave


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## Captain Jerry

Brian

Thanks for the pdf. I clears up a few things, mainly the steam controls which are clear in the picture. It would seem that this is a model 26 hereafter referred to by the telegraph code "EAGLE". This is based on the drum dimensions plus the fact that this unit has the brake bands at the same end as the clutches, and the chart says that on engines larger than this, the brakes are on the opposite end. so the bore is 6.25". The smaller engine has an 8" stroke and I have measured this one to be 10" so "EAGLE" it is.

I think I will build it in Alibre'. In the real, it is beyond my present skills. It is always great to have something to aim for.

Jerry


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## BAH101

The rest of the book I have has a lot of detailed drawings on it, most of their engines were the same basic parts, they just added more or larger drums and stuff. 
The disclaimer I had to add on pg 3 only says I cannot charge a fee for them and distribution is ok as long as that page is there, so... my take on that is you could borrow them if you would like
Bryan


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## Captain Jerry

Brian

That's the way I read it too. I would really appreciate seeing the rest of the drawings. Thanks for the offer. Can you email them? [email protected] 

Jerry


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## BAH101

Email sent, it is a very big file and that is only 50 pages...yikes, the whole book is 163 pages.
Bryan


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## Captain Jerry

Brian

Thanks for the e-mail. I really appreciate you efforts. The stuff is great. I went to the Cabin Creek site and found lot of great stuff. Thanks for pointing me there. I'll download from there.

Jerry


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## BAH101

Your welcome . I didnt relize how bir that CD was until I tried to print it. It is a total of 163 pages and 454 meg's of info. I could only print to PDF those 13 or so pages to get it below 10megs to send.
The rest of the cd is great, lots of drawings of how they used the Donkey engines etc...  

View attachment AmericanHoist1.pdf


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## Jeff02

Fuel for the fire!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyEuTXPXOxU[/ame]


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## Dan Rowe

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> This is the big end of the con rod and is exactly the same as the cross head end. What do you call this type of connection?



Jerry, 
That is a strap bearing with a cottered joint. The flat taper pin or cotter in some designs was used to take up bearing wear. These were very common for all types of machinery in the days of steam for reciprocating or stationary joints.

Cheers Dan


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## zeeprogrammer

That was a great video! A great engine!
I want to make one of those.


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## Captain Jerry

I have lots of pictures, lots of measurements, and lots of doubts. This is a very enticing project but I have not fully committed to it yet. Having the bones of this old engine so close at hand makes it all but impossible to ignore but the obstacles are many.

1. Plans. I would like to produce a model of THIS engine and while I have seen some plans offered, they are not this exact engine as far as I can tell. Close but not quite. This engine is one of the smaller models produced by American Hoist. Bore of 6.25", Stroke of 10" makes it a model 26 "EAGLE". There was a smaller one with 5.5" x 8" bore and stroke, the Model 24 "HABIT". These two models were unique in that the clutch and brake are on the same side of the drum. Larger models had the brakes on the opposite end of the drum for improved cooling. All plans and actual models of steam donkeys show the brakes and clutches separate.

2. Scale. If I make this model large enough to faithfully reproduce all detail would require a bigger shop and a bigger lathe. If I make it too small, some details will be compromised.

3. Complexity. I have never cut a gear. I have never cut a square thread. I have never cut a double start thread. Left hand double start square thread screw and nut, HA!

4. Live Steam. Maybe as a second phase.











I think I'm beginning to get serious about this. Here is the results of some Alibre modeling I did last night. This is pretty accurate as to actual dimensions. I'm thinking of using a 1/10th scale. I haven't cut any metal yet, but I'm getting close. Suggestions are welcome

Jerry


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## Maryak

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> Complexity. I have never cut a gear. I have never cut a square thread. I have never cut a double start thread. Left hand double start square thread screw and nut, HA!
> 
> I think I'm beginning to get serious about this. Suggestions are welcome
> 
> Jerry



CJ,

In some ways a left hand thread is easier than a right hand thread because you finish the cut in fresh air, (just watch for the tailstock centre).

The other thing to watch out for with a double start square thread is the helix angle. My way is to make a round toolbit holder and using a round piece of HSS grind the bit with 5 deg side clearance, then angle it in the holder to match the helix and grind the top parallel to the lathe bed and to the correct width. This keeps the strength in the bit.

To start use a parting tool and make a groove to depth and slightly wider than the thread, then cut the 1st start with the angled bit taking small cuts, (0.002-0.005) at the slowest speed and always engaging on the same number on the dial. My dial has six divisions so 1st start use 0, 2nd start use 3 as an example. The other way is to move the compound a distance equal to the pitch for the 2nd start in a two start thread remembering now to continue engaging with the # used for the 1st start. For my money, if you have a threading dial on the leadscrew that's the way to go, less chance of a boo boo. Also if your lathe has a high, (more than 60 rpm), minimum speed, I would turn the chuck by hand and isolate the power to the lathe.

Hope this helps and I hope you decide to pin the tail on this donkey.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Captain Jerry

Bob,

Thanks for the encouragement and the tips. Turning the chuck by hand makes it a lot less intimidating. I think I'll give it a try. I need both a RH and a LH screw. The LH presents more of a problem because my lead screw doesn't reverse. The are plans on the net for building a reverse mod but since I only need to do this once, I am thinking of two methods. I could either mount the tool upside down or mount the tool post on the back side of the work and then turn the spindle in reverse. What do you think?

The other problem is scale. What do you think is the smallest possible diameter? This will determine the overall scale of the model. This screw is used to engage the clutches. RH for the main hoist and LH for the front hoist.

Here is a pic.






Any thoughts on the nut?

Jerry


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## Maryak

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> I need both a RH and a LH screw. The LH presents more of a problem because my lead screw doesn't reverse. The are plans on the net for building a reverse mod but since I only need to do this once, I am thinking of two methods. I could either mount the tool upside down or mount the tool post on the back side of the work and then turn the spindle in reverse. What do you think?



I think he easier way would be to mount the tool post on the back side of the work and then turn the spindle in reverse. 



> The other problem is scale. What do you think is the smallest possible diameter? This will determine the overall scale of the model. This screw is used to engage the clutches. RH for the main hoist and LH for the front hoist.



Looking at the photo the thread looks to be about 1 diameter so to have some meat left in the shaft I think the minimum shaft size is around 3/16 with a 1/64 square thread. Scale would then be 1: 5 or 1: 6



> Any thoughts on the nut?



Yes and its the real challenge  3/16 shaft = 5/32 bore so the absolute maximum shaft of the boring tool is 1/8. All in all this starts to become impractical, so a work around is to make taps from silver steel, (drill rod) at the same time as the shafts are threaded. I would also compromise and make the threads single start.

Finally the ultimate compromise is to use standard V form threads.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob


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## Captain Jerry

Bob,

Thanks for the input. The screw measures 1 1/4" and the lever that turns it makes an arc of not much more than 45 degrees so the thread pitch is very steep. The pitch looks like about 1 tpi. Single start thread probably not suitable. This particular part could be made as much as twice the overall scale of the model without affecting appearance. AT a scale 1:10 double for this part would be .25" 10 TPI double start. Possible? Acme thread form might be better. 

Making taps? Now I am intimidated.

The length of the nut is fairly long, 2.5" actual or .25" at scale. This could be cheated to .3 without adverse appearance. I am thinking of making the nut a smooth bore to the OD of the thread form and then drilling holes that intersect the bore at the helix angle tangent to the thread root and inserting hardened pins. I think I could get four pins, two on each side of the bore. I would do a crap o cad here but I don't have the latest version. I'll try an Alibre model.

Jerry


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## Maryak

CJ,

I took some measurements from the photo and with a SWAG for parallax I came up with this:

Thread OD 1.250
Thread Pitch 0.500 = 2 tpi
Thread Lead, (2 start), 1.000 = 1 tpi
Thread 0.250 square thread.

Operating lever movement 45 deg

Therefore the distance of advance = 1 x (45/360) = 0.125 which does not seem sufficient if it is a dog clutch unless there is a further lever to multiply the travel to around 1

Scale down 1:5

Thread OD 0.250
Thread Pitch 0.100 = 10 tpi
Thread Lead, (2 start), 0.200 = 5 tpi.
Thread 0.050 square thread.
As there will be 60% core shaft thickness I think it should be OK but gut feel suggests its on the limit.

Operating lever movement 45 deg

Therefore the distance of advance = 0.200 x (45/360) = 0.025

An acme thread form would be easier as you can allow a fiddle factor by reducing the size of the tool tip. However the pins you suggest would be a PITA with this thread form.

You are giving my grey cells pre-ignition I just hope I don't blow a clacker valve or head gasket. :big:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Captain Jerry

Bob

Easy on the clacker. Snuff out the cigarette, a big splash of Kentucky corn spirits in a cup of de-caf and put your feet up. That's my remedy.

Here is the nut with pins I described. The pins could be round or square section.






This is not a dog clutch. When the lever turns, the screw advances and presses on the end of a pin fitted in a bore in the winch gear shaft which is turning with the drive pinion. This pin engages a spider that forces 4 friction blocks outward where they contact the clutch drum. The linkage actually reduces the travel of the motion but increases the force. The linkage does not knuckle over center. When the operator releases the lever, the springs visible in the pic force the friction blocks away from the clutch face. This is a really interesting mechanism and is probably what interests me most.

Here are a couple of pics of the motion. I'm working on modeling it now.














Thanks for your thoughts and efforts. I am in way over my head here.

Jerry


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## Captain Jerry

OK. I don't think I can do it that way. The LH square thread rod and nut are too much at 1:10 scale. What I need is a way to move the rod axially a distance of about .010 when the rod is rotated 45 degrees. 

I think I can do it this way:






I know, the above is a RH thread but doing it this way, the LH version is just as easy.

It should be fairly easy to build and although it probably wouldn't meet industrial standards it ought to do for modeling. The tube will probably be bronze, 3/16" OD, 1/8" ID. The rod will be 1/8" drill rod and the pin will be 1/16" drill rod.

I'm getting closer to a decision. When I get a little shop time this week I'll give it a try.

Jerry


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## Maryak

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> Bob
> Easy on the clacker. Snuff out the cigarette, a big splash of Kentucky corn spirits in a cup of de-caf and put your feet up. That's my remedy.



I really like the Kentucky and feet up but no fags and decaf    that's more than I bargained for.

For someone way in over their head that sir is one very elegant solution. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Captain Jerry

I gave up nicotine when I was 40. I gave up caffine after breakfast when I was 60. I'll give up spirits when I give up the ghost... or maybe a few years after, just to be safe.

Jerry


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## Jasonb

I still think it would be easy enough to cut a double start 1/4" square thread. I've done single start without any problems, did the nut as best I could with a lateh tool then chassed it with a home made tap.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...onstruction/?action=view&current=braketap.jpg
Tap is the black bit at the bottom.

Jason


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## zeeprogrammer

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> I gave up nicotine when I was 40. I gave up caffine after breakfast when I was 60. I'll give up spirits when I give up the ghost... or maybe a few years after, just to be safe.



Safety first. And no one on this forum will argue with that. ;D


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## Captain Jerry

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> I still think it would be easy enough to cut a double start 1/4" square thread. I've done single start without any problems, did the nut as best I could with a lateh tool then chassed it with a home made tap.
> 
> Jason



Easy for some but too much for me at this point, but thanks for the encouragement. I may try it just for laughs.

Jerry


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## Jasonb

That was actually the first thread I had ever cut using a lathe, give it a go, you won't know until you try it.

Jason


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## Captain Jerry

I'm getting closer. I think I've identified all of the sticky parts. This is a model of the hoist mechanism, complete with gears, clutches and brake drums. I'm trying to work out the gears now. I intend to make the gears as a separate rim on the drive. That will let me fiddle with the clutch mechanism without worrying about messing up the gears which can be pressed on after the clutches are working. 

Right now I'm trying to work out the gears. The hoist gears are about 2.5" OD and the pinion is about .6" OD with a .5" face on each. I'm thinking 20DP, 20PA with 50 teeth and 12 teeth but I could be wrong. I would prefer to use steel but I could resort to brass if necessary. Having never cut a gear, I need to see if I can grind a suitable cutter. 

Suggestions and recommendations are welcome.

Jerry


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## Jasonb

If those are the OD sizes then you will need to run 48/9, but your 50/12 will be right for the PCD of the gears at 2.5/0.6

Jason


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## Jared

I love steam donkeys, yarders, winches, hoists, cranes, derricks, draglines, well, you get the idea. I started a triple drum yarder of my own design a few years ago but it has been languishing. I'm hoping you'll build this so it'll inspire me. I'm gonna be following this.


			
				Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> I think I can do it this way:


My dad has an ancient small double-drum hoist on a boom truck he uses all the time for his welding business. It uses almost the exact same lever mechanism but without the pin between the two halves, and it slides the drum sideways against the rotating clutch made of wedge-shaped hardwood blocks. If you like I can get some pictures for you. You should be able to eliminate the pin and let the two halves slide against each other. It will have more bearing surface than the pin will give.


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## Captain Jerry

Jared

Thanks for your interest in this project. When I finally gave up on the idea of a 2 start square thread per the original, my first idea was exactly as you describe without the pin but as i worked out the details when I separated the two halves of the bushing, the slots appeared and the use of a pin seems more close to the original concept. It could go either way when I get to the actual part.

Your dad's truck must be a real antique. I thought wooden clutches disappeared with the end of steam power.

Jerry


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## Captain Jerry

:wall: :wall: :wall:

RATS!!!  @#$%@#$%!!!

I just spent two hours trying to explain a really slick way I came up with to grind a gear tooth cutter and when I went to photobucket to get a link, I accidently closed the reply window before it was posted. That hurts more than messing up a part. :'( :'( :'(

I disheartened. I'm going to bed! Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

Jerry


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## Jared

Jerry,

 The truck itself is a '70 Chevy 2-ton, but I wouldn't be surprised if the hoist is '20s,'30s, or '40s vintage. It was used on a piledriver on a barge for use on the Columbia River, back when nobody cared how many pilings you drove in the water and you could do all sorts of other neat stuff. It's fairly small; the drums are about 18" wide and 8" in diameter, which may account for still using the wood clutch.
 :wall: I drove by it twice today and managed to remember exactly zero times to snap some shots of it.
I do know of two similar trucks that ARE antiques. A shipyard in Astoria, OR uses a 90 year old chain drive Mack and a 100-year-old Doane every day to handle lifting duties. A 70's vintage truck with a hydraulic crane sits in the weeds. 

 I'm curious why you're selling your sailboat. A man without a boat is a man in chains, as the old Norwegians used to say.


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## Captain Jerry

Jared:

Thanks for your reply. A picture of your dad's truck and would be interesting, but I enjoy neat old equipment. In my younger days, I was in the mining and earth moving equipment business and I have sold my fair share of Caterpillar, Komatsu, American Hoist (draglines), Mack (off-road mining trucks, LeTorneau, and Euclid equipment and have toured all of their factories (and museums). I've driven a chain drive Mack and I've pulled the levers on an electric Marion dragline. I won't say I "operated" the Marion, just pulled the levers through a few cycles under the VERY watchfull eyes of the real operator. That may explain the natural interest in building this steam donkey.

 I'm curious why you're selling your sailboat. A man without a boat is a man in chains, as the old Norwegians used to say.
Posted on: April 17, 2010, 01:06:05 AM

I'm selling the boat because it has served it's purpose, which I only recently decided what it's purpose was. It eased my transition into retirement and gave me focus and confidence that I was not "over the hill". Sailing has been a big part of my life for the last ten years. It has kept me healthy and interested in life. I will miss it but I can do other things now.

I never touched a metal lathe until I was 70 and now I do things that I never did. I think I have a good handle on 3D CAD with lots more to learn. I may make a set of gears soon. My son-in-law asked me if I wanted to attend a welding course with him and I will. My wife starts talking very fast and tries to distract my attention when we drive by the Harley dealership and If I start to miss the boat too much, I have a big teak deck box which isn't going with the boat, so I can take it out in the hot sun and varnish it. That will let me miss th boat less.

Jerry


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## Captain Jerry

The project is started. It now is a work in progress so a new thread has been started under that topic. Thank you all for encouraging me to undertake this. Watch the progress at 

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9212.msg99807;topicseen#new

Jerry


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