# 1/2 inch by 11 thread bolt   ????



## werowance (May 11, 2020)

someone asked me if I had a 1/2 inch by 11 thread die that I could make a new bolt for an antique grist mill.  I have not seen the bolt but I cant find that is even a normal thread.  I cant imagine they would have custom made the threads for a weird count in a piece of farm machiniery. 

so guess my question is am I wrong that its not a normal thread if it really is 1/2 x 11?

and I'm not about to single point thread cut it on my lathe as I am terrible at that.  usually just start a thread enough to make it easier to run the die on it.


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## werowance (May 11, 2020)

and the more I think about it,  he said the head was a 3/4.  I'm wondering if it would be 5/8 x 11 with a 3/4 head?


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## BaronJ (May 11, 2020)

If its antique then it could possibly be, or 9/16 unc.


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## Charles Lamont (May 11, 2020)

5/8" x 11 TPI is a Whitworth size. Heads went smaller after a while so unless it is really old it would likely fit a spanner marked 9/16 W 5/8 BSF.


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## mortimer (May 12, 2020)

hi the head of bolts in the UK went down a size during the second world war to save metal


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## chrsbrbnk (May 13, 2020)

some of the antiques have fasteners that were before the unified standards   always sorta throw you for a loop .  where I used to work we had a customer that made grain sorting machinery  , designs that were pre WW1 and  alot of their production tooling  had bolts that were pre unified !!! (this was just  2 years ago)  have to rebore the head reliefs and stuff like that to use new bolts


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## William May (May 13, 2020)

If you have a Machinery's Handbook" you can look under screw threads and find the wide variety that are actually in the tables. 
I do a lot of work on antique cars (Before 1916, NOT used cars like 1965 Mustangs!) When I run across an odd thread, I usually order a tap and a die for whatever work I am doing. If you use one (the tap.) you will eventually need the die)
My 1/2" taps and dies currently range: 11, 12, 13, 18, 20, 24, 32 tpi. Also, I have the L/H taps and dies for most of those. 
If you are working on old equipment, you need to be VERY careful to identify the thread you are working with. Use a caliper  to determine the actual major diameter, and then a thread gauge to determine the actual thread. 
A lot of people say "Oh, there was no thread standard in the old days, so they are all odd!" This is NOT true.  The U.S. 60 degree thread was well-established BEFORE the Civil War.  Virtually  all U.S. manufactured equipment since the Civil War uses the 60 degree thread. It is just the pitch that can be odd.  Although some manufacturers picked odd pitches for technical reasons, or to make their equipment less tamper-prone.
The ONLY place I have seen REALLY odd threads is in antique magical equipment.  Magician Machinists used nearly all special threads, made with screw plates, instead of dies.  Why they did this, I do not know. It may be because they were typically using the same threads as watchmakers. (I found this out from a club member who is renowned for his magical equipment. He also restores antique magical equipment as well, and he has a HUGE collection of screw plates and is always buying more.) 
A good example of an odd thread that was commonly used is 1/4-24. This was known as the "Harley Bastard Thread".  But actually, it was a common standard thread in the early part of the century. If you look at a Harley part number, there are 2 digits that tell you the year the part was first used on a Harley.  The oldest part I have found on my 1961 Pan Head is the clutch operating shaft, which shows it was put in production in 1903


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## Bessemer20 (May 13, 2020)

Some manufacturers used proprietary threads so you had to go back to them for replacement parts.   Quite common in the early 1900s.


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## Wizard69 (May 30, 2020)

This has already been covered well but it is worth pointing out that Unified Threads came about after WW2 due to the need for compatibility with US and British standards.   There where standards before that but lets put it this way far too many standards.   What isn't also well known is that not all of those standards where of English measurement, very small watch and instrument screws where metric.   Before WW2 in the US the most common standard was the Sellers thread which evolved into USS.   It would take over 34 years from the advent of the Sellers standard until the first standard metric thread form was established in 1898.

When I mention most common in the USA it liteerally meand just that.   The Sellers thread became the standard by adoption by the US government, Pennsylvania Railroad and the Locomotive manufactures.    This highlights just how much power and influence the railroads had at the time as they where instrumental in Sellers thread rise in acceptance.   That doesn't mean there where not dozens of other thread forms floating about from the mid 1800's on.   

I did a lot of reseaarch on threads a few years back because I was considering buidling a app for the iphone.    The app never really happened because frankly a better solution beat me to it.    However it is fascinating to look at the history of screw threads and realize how long it took for industry to see the value in standard threads.   It took WW2 to get the English based countries to knock heads together on a common standard.    If it wasn't for the railroads we would have an even bigger mess these days.


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## SmithDoor (May 30, 2020)

I have only seen one 1/2" 11 bolt and nut
I do not know why it was made but it was a odd ball for bolt and nut
I try find out and used books on threads dating back to 1910 and was not listed

Dave



werowance said:


> someone asked me if I had a 1/2 inch by 11 thread die that I could make a new bolt for an antique grist mill.  I have not seen the bolt but I cant find that is even a normal thread.  I cant imagine they would have custom made the threads for a weird count in a piece of farm machiniery.
> 
> so guess my question is am I wrong that its not a normal thread if it really is 1/2 x 11?
> 
> and I'm not about to single point thread cut it on my lathe as I am terrible at that.  usually just start a thread enough to make it easier to run the die on it.


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## William May (May 30, 2020)

Have them send a drawing to me, and I can make if for them. No problem. I have that die in my tapping desk.


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## werowance (Jun 1, 2020)

William May said:


> Have them send a drawing to me, and I can make if for them. No problem. I have that die in my tapping desk.




Thanks William, I will ask them if they still need it,  they probably do.  it about 1.5 inches long and 3/4 inch head.

where did you come up with a 1/2 x 11 die if you don't mind me asking?


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## William May (Jun 1, 2020)

I have been ordering special taps and dies for the last 30 years or so. If I see one, and the price is reasonable, I will buy it. Like some people have a toolbox, I have a tapping desk, with a "Universal Pillartool" mounted on top for tapping, and then drawers below for all the taps and dies, in sets.
As I said, I do a lot of work on antique cars, and I also do a lot of work on scale steam locomotives. 
Taps and dies are kind of like mice. When you aren't looking, they seem to multiply. So I had to do something to keep them organized.  
If you google the "Universal Pillartool" you will see a tool very similar to an industrial "hand tapper" but much more useful and with many more applications. It was designed by the late George Thomas.


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## werowance (Jun 2, 2020)

William May said:


> I have been ordering special taps and dies for the last 30 years or so. If I see one, and the price is reasonable, I will buy it. Like some people have a toolbox, I have a tapping desk, with a "Universal Pillartool" mounted on top for tapping, and then drawers below for all the taps and dies, in sets.
> As I said, I do a lot of work on antique cars, and I also do a lot of work on scale steam locomotives.
> Taps and dies are kind of like mice. When you aren't looking, they seem to multiply. So I had to do something to keep them organized.
> If you google the "Universal Pillartool" you will see a tool very similar to an industrial "hand tapper" but much more useful and with many more applications. It was designed by the late George Thomas.




William, I spoke with the gentleman who wanted the bolt last night and he is interested,  would it be ok if I pm you some information and ask about cost etc?


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## William May (Jun 2, 2020)

werowance said:


> William, I spoke with the gentleman who wanted the bolt last night and he is interested,  would it be ok if I pm you some information and ask about cost etc?


Soitenly!


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## William May (Jun 2, 2020)

Has he seriously thought about just running a 1/2" -12 tap through, and calling it a day? Much cheaper, and the problem is over with. 
It it's just one bolt, it would probably be about $10 total.  I need a drawing with all the dimensions. Also, what kind of material? if this is an old bolt (which I would think it IS, based on the obscure thread) then probably mild steel would be fine. But it is hardened? or made of some special steel, as far as he knows?


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## werowance (Jun 2, 2020)

pm sent William,  I appreciate it.


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## Wizard69 (Jun 11, 2020)

William May said:


> Has he seriously thought about just running a 1/2" -12 tap through, and calling it a day? Much cheaper, and the problem is over with.
> It it's just one bolt, it would probably be about $10 total.  I need a drawing with all the dimensions. Also, what kind of material? if this is an old bolt (which I would think it IS, based on the obscure thread) then probably mild steel would be fine. But it is hardened? or made of some special steel, as far as he knows?


Please no.   This likely an old iron casting that might not take kindly to thread abuse.   With a little gogglig you can find a vendor like: High Speed Steel Special Pitch Taps | HSS Special Thread Taps   which lists at least one tap.


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## William May (Jun 11, 2020)

Wizard69 said:


> Please no.   This likely an old iron casting that might not take kindly to thread abuse.   With a little gogglig you can find a vendor like: High Speed Steel Special Pitch Taps | HSS Special Thread Taps   which lists at least one tap.


NAH! If this thing is as beat-up as he says, it will probably not even notice  a 1/2-12 tap going through it, much less stress over it. I'd be amazed if he even gets any real tapping action out of it, other than removing a few high spots.  This idea was slanted towards him minimizing the money and future trouble this little detail is going to cost him.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 12, 2020)

William


Is your UPT to Geo Thomas's  design please?  I'm having to unearth the mine to stamp the numbers on the Worden tool grinder. Apparently George had a hand in the machine design - or perhaps it was it the earlier Kennet?


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## William May (Jun 12, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> William
> 
> 
> Is your UPT to Geo Thomas's  design please?  I'm having to unearth the mine to stamp the numbers on the Worden tool grinder. Apparently George had a hand in the machine design - or perhaps it was it the earlier Kennet?


Yes, it is a George Thomas design! I understand he did some simpler, commercial units earlier in his career, but I don't know enough to say which brands he designed for.  The "Kennet" name rings a bell, but I can't say for sure.  For me, the Pillartool is a genius design, and George Thomas was a truly exceptional engineer. I have his book on "Dividing and Graduating" as well. I am looking for his "General Workshop Practice" that he mentioned planning to put out, but I don't know if he ever got to it. But I am in Tucson, Arizona, and info here is pretty sparse.  .


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## goldstar31 (Jun 12, 2020)

Sadly, George was too ill to  produce both books . He did the Universal Pillar Tool and Dividing and Graduating as two books. 

When George died, there was an effort from well known British associates, to complete the whole task.

Dr W.A. Bennett BDS( Dunelm) a classmate of my late wife Dr Christine Wennington Atkinson( nee Alder)
FRCS( Edin), BDS( Dunelm), Dip.Orth, FRCS( England), B.A.(OU), tool on the task to amalgamate what appeared in Model Engineer in the past which had not appeared in the earlier 2 books.
This cbecame his Model Engineers Workshop Manual.  However, there were modifications and additions to the earlier two books and Bill created 'Workshop Techniques' which embodied the Mark2 Universal Pillar Tool( new castings) and Jim Batchelor's of Leeds modification so that the UPT and drill could go onto the saddle of a lathe. In this case, for the Myford Super7B PXF( which I have).

At present, the kits for most of the projects from George are sold by Hemingwaykits now owned by Kirk Burwell.

So, as best that I am able, brings you and other interested readers --- up to date.

So my kind regards

Norman


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## William May (Jun 12, 2020)

So the book is available, as the "Model Engineer's Workshop Manual"? That is the correct title I should search for? Is it under George Thomas' name? or is it under some other authors, who compiled the work from George's notes?
IF this is all correct, I will begin my search for this book.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 12, 2020)

Both are under George's name but edited by Bill Bennett.
Hemingwaykits and RDG Tools had the Manual. I have 'both' books but can't help on the second book at this time.

HTH

Norman


Edit
-------Amazon has both listed

N


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## William May (Jun 12, 2020)

Thank you very much!
I search a lot on ebay.uk, and will look there to see if someone has a copy for sale. I doubt I would find it on the U.S. Ebay, but I will look there as well.  You never can tell. 
BIll


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## William May (Jun 13, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Both are under George's name but edited by Bill Bennett.
> Hemingwaykits and RDG Tools had the Manual. I have 'both' books but can't help on the second book at this time.
> 
> HTH
> ...


Just checked on Amazon. ! copy for $500 U.S.  One of his other books for $125 U.S. and one other for $89 U.S. I guess I will keep looking.


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## terryd (Jun 14, 2020)

William May said:


> Yes, it is a George Thomas design! I understand he did some simpler, commercial units earlier in his career, but I don't know enough to say which brands he designed for.  The "Kennet" name rings a bell, but I can't say for sure.  For me, the Pillartool is a genius design, and George Thomas was a truly exceptional engineer. I have his book on "Dividing and Graduating" as well. I am looking for his "General Workshop Practice" that he mentioned planning to put out, but I don't know if he ever got to it. But I am in Tucson, Arizona, and info here is pretty sparse.  .




Hi William,

Re: "Model Engineer's Workshop Manual".

The book is still in print in the UK and the main publisher is called TEE Publishing.  They will post to the USA I believe the cost of Postage is based on weight.   Probably worth asking how much postage is The book costs £29.95 ($38.00 at the moment. 



			https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/in-your-workshop/model-engineers-workshop-manual/
		


His other book which describes the universal pillar tool among other projects is "Workshop Techniques" also still in print and available at the publisher above for £26.95 ($34.00).  I have had both for many years and they are an excellent read - they are still the same price as I paid around 15 years ago.  I just looked up the cost of a small parcel from the UK and it would be around $20.00 for both.

TerryD


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## goldstar31 (Jun 14, 2020)

I bought my original copy in 1992. It's virtually oil stained and 'tatty' so when I was at ' Ally Pally' again after  my RAF Goldstar days at Hendon etc, I bough a new one


With my 'new' Myford, I'm still renewing  bits after the sale of my old lathe. My really old mate- he's 94 still thinks that there is little today to compete.

So a pound a year for each book? Need I say more?

Norman


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## William May (Jun 14, 2020)

terryd said:


> Hi William,
> 
> Re: "Model Engineer's Workshop Manual".
> 
> ...


Thanks very much, Terry! I will be looking them up today! 
I am a annoyed that the "global web" will only show results from the U.S. when a particular product is easily and widely available from the U.K. I notice this as a very common situation., and it irks me a LOT!


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## RonW (Jun 15, 2020)

If you want to buy books on the web my go to is Aebooks.com . If they don't have it they seem to have contacts who do. Prices and postage from all over the world seem reasonable. 
Some prices on amazon are absolutely outrageous and shipping is often more than the object. 
Tee publishing are good at prompt delivery of new materials.
RonW


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## terryd (Jun 16, 2020)

William May said:


> Thanks very much, Terry! I will be looking them up today!
> I am a annoyed that the "global web" will only show results from the U.S. when a particular product is easily and widely available from the U.K. I notice this as a very common situation., and it irks me a LOT!



Hi William,

I ditched Google and most of the other common search engines due to lack of privacy and data collection.  I now use DuckDuckGo and it is an excellent open-source search engine that claims not to collect data.  Anyway, DuckDuckGo has a switch on its search page which allows me to choose UK sources only or international sources. There is also a drop-down list (small arrow head nest to switch so that you can choose All regions or individual countries, most useful - and it's free.  Here's a part screenshot







Best regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Jun 16, 2020)

RonW said:


> If you want to buy books on the web my go to is Aebooks.com . If they don't have it they seem to have contacts who do. Prices and postage from all over the world seem reasonable.
> Some prices on amazon are absolutely outrageous and shipping is often more than the object.
> Tee publishing are good at prompt delivery of new materials.
> RonW




Hi Ron,

I found only 1 on Abebooks.com and it was $494.00 +$15 delivery and it is used.  A bit pricier than the $37.00 +$20 delivery New from the publishers in the UK,

Regards
TerryD


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## terryd (Jun 16, 2020)

[/QUOTE]


RonW said:


> If you want to buy books on the web my go to is Aebooks.com . If they don't have it they seem to have contacts who do. Prices and postage from all over the world seem reasonable.
> Some prices on amazon are absolutely outrageous and shipping is often more than the object.
> Tee publishing are good at prompt delivery of new materials.
> RonW



Hi Ron,

I've used Abebooks almost since it began in the mid-90s.  They act like Amazon Marketplace and don't have stocks of their own, just acting as a repository for other sellers. 

Now for the really bad news, I just found out that they are now owned by Amazon.  I became suspicious when I saw the same picture of a used book on both sites in the same setting so I did a bit of rooting around.  Sad but true,

TerryD


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## Richard Hed (Jun 16, 2020)

RonW said:


> If you want to buy books on the web my go to is Aebooks.com . If they don't have it they seem to have contacts who do. Prices and postage from all over the world seem reasonable.
> Some prices on amazon are absolutely outrageous and shipping is often more than the object.
> Tee publishing are good at prompt delivery of new materials.
> RonW


I NEVER use amazon as they simply are a middle man operation--they simply ARRANGE transactions and take a cut.  to me, that is dishonest, it just raises the prices of items.  I am not sure if you meant "ABEbooks" which is one of the places i go to.  Also, Alibrisbooks and Powellsbooks.  Powells is rather expensive but is goo to check prices.  All of these guys are also middlemen but they are not gorillas like amazon.  I hate the gorillas as the end of their game is absolute domination of the market and that ALWAYS leads to higher prices.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 16, 2020)

terryd said:


> Hi William,
> 
> I ditched Google and most of the other common search engines due to lack of privacy and data collection.  I now use DuckDuckGo and it is an excellent open-source search engine that claims not to collect data.  Anyway, DuckDuckGo has a switch on its search page which allows me to choose UK sources only or international sources. There is also a drop-down list (small arrow head nest to switch so that you can choose All regions or individual countries, most useful - and it's free.  Here's a part screenshot
> 
> ...


Yes, I use duckduck too.  I used goggle back in 1995, as it was the best there was for about 6 months.  But I got sick of their bragging that they got 600trillion hits in .57 seconds.  Be real, 99% of those hits were the same 10 or 20 hits and you woujld have to spend something like 100 lifetimes without sleep eating or any other activity to search all those so called millions billions trillions of hits.  I used to use Momma.com and it would come up with up to 600 hits without repeating any.  They were really goo but then they remodelled or sold to someone else, I'm not sure what they did and it went downhill to ZERO.  There are a couple engines that may be better than duckduk but I don't know what they are.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 16, 2020)

Hi Ron,

I've used Abebooks almost since it began in the mid-90s.  They act like Amazon Marketplace and don't have stocks of their own, just acting as a repository for other sellers.

Now for the really bad news, I just found out that they are now owned by Amazon.  I became suspicious when I saw the same picture of a used book on both sites in the same setting so I did a bit of rooting around.  Sad but true,

TerryD
[/QUOTE]
Oh, God, I am going to kill myself.  That is how gorillas grow by sukking up the smaller companies and thus reducing competition.  That really suks to find that out.  Thanx for letting us know.  I'm going to Alibris.  Makes you wonder if our government knows the definition of "monopoly"


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## William May (Jun 16, 2020)

RonW said:


> If you want to buy books on the web my go to is Aebooks.com . If they don't have it they seem to have contacts who do. Prices and postage from all over the world seem reasonable.
> Some prices on amazon are absolutely outrageous and shipping is often more than the object.
> Tee publishing are good at prompt delivery of new materials.
> RonW


I assume you meant "Abebooks". Yes, I use them a LOT. I like them because they are like a federation of small book stores, so they give the power of 3


terryd said:


> Hi William,
> 
> I ditched Google and most of the other common search engines due to lack of privacy and data collection.  I now use DuckDuckGo and it is an excellent open-source search engine that claims not to collect data.  Anyway, DuckDuckGo has a switch on its search page which allows me to choose UK sources only or international sources. There is also a drop-down list (small arrow head nest to switch so that you can choose All regions or individual countries, most useful - and it's free.  Here's a part screenshot
> 
> ...


I had never heard of them, but I will give them a try the next time I am looking for something! Thanks!.


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## terryd (Jun 16, 2020)

William May said:


> I assume you meant "Abebooks". Yes, I use them a LOT. I like them because they are like a federation of small book stores, so they give the power of 3
> 
> I had never heard of them, but I will give them a try the next time I am looking for something! Thanks!.



Hi William, 

I don't know if you saw my earlier post but AbeBooks is now owned by Amazon.  I prefer to deal with individual booksellers if I can find them.  In the UK for my engineering titles and suchlike, I use places like TEE or Camden supplies.  I even use eBay as there are independents on there as well.  I bought a couple of the 'Workshop Techniques' from a seller off there which I couldn't find elsewhere and they were good prices and free delivery.

TerryD


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## terryd (Jun 16, 2020)

[/QUOTE]
Oh, God, I am going to kill myself.  That is how gorillas grow by sukking up the smaller companies and thus reducing competition.  That really suks to find that out.  Thanx for letting us know.  I'm going to Alibris.  Makes you wonder if our government knows the definition of "monopoly"
[/QUOTE]

Hi Richard

Don't do that, they're not worth it!!!

Be safe
TerryD


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## William May (Jun 16, 2020)

terryd said:


> Hi William,
> 
> I don't know if you saw my earlier post but AbeBooks is now owned by Amazon.  I prefer to deal with individual booksellers if I can find them.  In the UK for my engineering titles and suchlike, I use places like TEE or Camden supplies.  I even use eBay as there are independents on there as well.  I bought a couple of the 'Workshop Techniques' from a seller off there which I couldn't find elsewhere and they were good prices and free delivery.
> 
> TerryD


Well, I know it now.  But even owned by Amazon, ABE gives smaller booksellers the muscle they need. ABE is still a good group to belong to, if you are a small bookstore. Anything that preserves the small bookstore is viewed by me as a friend.  But I will now look for more independent sources as well.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 16, 2020)

Oh, God, I am going to kill myself.  That is how gorillas grow by sukking up the smaller companies and thus reducing competition.  That really suks to find that out.  Thanx for letting us know.  I'm going to Alibris.  Makes you wonder if our government knows the definition of "monopoly"
[/QUOTE]

Hi Richard

Don't do that, they're not worth it!!!

Be safe
TerryD
[/QUOTE]
OK, you've convinced me.  I'll stay alive just in order to buy books from smaller stores.  I buy a LOT of books which include basic topics such as machining, steam engines, telescope making (anybody make telescopes here?), and Ulysses Grant and Civil War stuff. and actually quite a few other subjects too but in smaller amounts.


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## lkrestorer (Jun 17, 2020)

I see this post has evolved from threads to books but I have a thread question.  Does anyone use Acorn dies in their hobby work? I stumbled across them on Ebay and impulsively bought a couple 5-40 size just because I wanted to try them out.  The dies were inexpensive but the holders are a larger investment. There is a company or two still making them but it almost looks like a special order situation. They do pop up on Ebay frequently

They worked so well that I have built a fairly comprehensive collection (from 1-80 to 1/2-20 with 1/8" and 1/4" pipe dies thrown in for good measure).  I have to admit that I'm not an expert on their original purposes but they were apparently used in the older (before CNC) screw machines. Also, they are supposed to be easily sharpened with a stone in a Dremel tool (I haven't tried that yet). I have seen listings for some very unusual sizes - like 1/4-100.

I use them by mounting the holder in a drill chuck in the lathe tailstock and run the lathe at it's slowest speed. They are very good at self-centering as the holders are not totally rigid and have sliding parts designed to be self-releasing at the end of the thread length that you choose. All of mine cut extremely well and are adjustable for thread depth with a wrench on the holder - very quick and easy. The operation is much simpler than using "normal" round dies.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

terryd said:


> Hi William,
> 
> I ditched Google and most of the other common search engines due to lack of privacy and data collection.  I now use DuckDuckGo and it is an excellent open-source search engine that claims not to collect data.  Anyway, DuckDuckGo has a switch on its search page which allows me to choose UK sources only or international sources. There is also a drop-down list (small arrow head nest to switch so that you can choose All regions or individual countries, most useful - and it's free.  Here's a part screenshot
> 
> ...


tHEre's another reason I don't use anything that collects info:  I want to get MY share of revenues!


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

lkrestorer said:


> I see this post has evolved from threads to books but I have a thread question.  Does anyone use Acorn dies in their hobby work? I stumbled across them on Ebay and impulsively bought a couple 5-40 size just because I wanted to try them out.  The dies were inexpensive but the holders are a larger investment. There is a company or two still making them but it almost looks like a special order situation. They do pop up on Ebay frequently
> 
> They worked so well that I have built a fairly comprehensive collection (from 1-80 to 1/2-20 with 1/8" and 1/4" pipe dies thrown in for good measure).  I have to admit that I'm not an expert on their original purposes but they were apparently used in the older (before CNC) screw machines. Also, they are supposed to be easily sharpened with a stone in a Dremel tool (I haven't tried that yet). I have seen listings for some very unusual sizes - like 1/4-100.
> 
> ...


I can see this quite well but my mind cannot fathom it.  I have never seen this before.  I can't even imagine how it works.  Maybe because the threads this cuts are small?  what does the cutting?


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## elcid (Jun 17, 2020)

I've ditched  Google for most of the time through the use of the Host file, trouble is that you don't realise how much google has infiltrated the internet today, there are far to many websites that rely on nothing but google's software so I have to revert to the basic host file to some access websites/information and using Google or the likes of Bing  searching for information throws up page after page of advertising something that I don't think the web was originally design for., even Linux and my raspberry PI has been infiltrated by Google's all consuming goal of domination.
Amazon's prices have shot up of late, while Ebay and Gumtree are trying to reinvent themselves before i's too late.
For me it's back to my books or buying new books, even my TV's had a  splash a screen telling me that a lot of it's functionality would be impeded if I didn't agree to their new security and data/voice collection terms.
Where is it going? full CCTV coverage with facial recognition is on it way here in Scotland by 2025 and deployable cctv, drones for local councils and the police. Big Brother helped by Google and Facebook. 
Best thing though is with the shed door closed I'm in my own world.


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## lkrestorer (Jun 17, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> I can see this quite well but my mind cannot fathom it. I have never seen this before. I can't even imagine how it works. Maybe because the threads this cuts are small? what does the cutting?


The two components at the bottom of the picture are the Acorn dies. They mount in the nose of the holder above them. This assembly "attacks" the rod to be threaded head-on.  Each of the four segments you see in the lower left of the picture has internal threads that do the cutting. They are not just for cutting small threads. I've seen them advertised to cut threads well over 1".

In hind sight I should probably take my question and start a new post so that it will be a question on it's own.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

lkrestorer said:


> The two components at the bottom of the picture are the Acorn dies. They mount in the nose of the holder above them. This assembly "attacks" the rod to be threaded head-on.  Each of the four segments you see in the lower left of the picture has internal threads that do the cutting. They are not just for cutting small threads. I've seen them advertised to cut threads well over 1".
> 
> In hind sight I should probably take my question and start a new post so that it will be a question on it's own.


Part why I am so confused is this LOOKS like copper.  It must be something else.  On the "acorn" on the left, with the four casellations, there must be a hole in the middle?  Is that right?  Then the rod being threaded into the hole (obviously), it's just that I cannot tell from this photo.  If this works so well, how come it is not in production any more?  someone else made something that overwhelmed it in production or cost ?


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

elcid said:


> I've ditched  Google for most of the time through the use of the Host file, trouble is that you don't realise how much google has infiltrated the internet today, there are far to many websites that rely on nothing but google's software so I have to revert to the basic host file to some access websites/information and using Google or the likes of Bing  searching for information throws up page after page of advertising something that I don't think the web was originally design for., even Linux and my raspberry PI has been infiltrated by Google's all consuming goal of domination.
> Amazon's prices have shot up of late, while Ebay and Gumtree are trying to reinvent themselves before i's too late.
> For me it's back to my books or buying new books, even my TV's had a  splash a screen telling me that a lot of it's functionality would be impeded if I didn't agree to their new security and data/voice collection terms.
> Where is it going? full CCTV coverage with facial recognition is on it way here in Scotland by 2025 and deployable cctv, drones for local councils and the police. Big Brother helped by Google and Facebook.
> Best thing though is with the shed door closed I'm in my own world.


Don't get me wound up on this, it is far worse than soviet or nazi techniques of spying on you--the soviets used fear to keep their citizens in line, the nazis used hate and torture so what is the "modern" west doing?  Fear they will take away your freedom to shop?  It ALWAYS boils up to $$$$--ALWAYS.  ANd Yes, I have bought some product in which, having already paid for it, and being non returnable, I find that if I don't agree to their illegal use of terms, the machine will not work.  (Try using a microsux product without agreeing--even when you already paid for it and cannot return it!)


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## lkrestorer (Jun 17, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> Part why I am so confused is this LOOKS like copper. It must be something else. On the "acorn" on the left, with the four casellations, there must be a hole in the middle? Is that right? Then the rod being threaded into the hole (obviously), it's just that I cannot tell from this photo. If this works so well, how come it is not in production any more? someone else made something that overwhelmed it in production or cost ?


Click on the picture to get the full page enlarged view. The copper color is due to the lighting and my phone camera. And, yes, that is part of my question - why aren't they made and used more? They were replaced by CNC threading but on the lathe in my backyard shop they do an absolutely fabulous job.

I started a new post with this as the topic (which I should have done first). It's named "Acorn Dies". Hopefully that will catch the eye of someone who knows more than I.


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## kinggt4 (Jun 17, 2020)

I just used DuckDuckGo and ordered the Model Engineering Workshop Manual for 43.57 pounds from Tee Publishing in England.  They were about the third link in the list.  Sorry to hijack the discussion, but if anyone is looking for the book it's much cheaper than the $4-500 price for a used version.

George


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

kinggt4 said:


> I just used DuckDuckGo and ordered the Model Engineering Workshop Manual for 43.57 pounds from Tee Publishing in England.  They were about the third link in the list.  Sorry to hijack the discussion, but if anyone is looking for the book it's much cheaper than the $4-500 price for a used version.
> 
> George


I don't consider it hi-jacking--if it were, I'm sure the fbi, men in white, men in black, mossad, mi6 , kgb would all be after me.  I consider it a discussion you or I or someone else wants to talk about.  What's wrong with that?  fooey on always having to start a new thread--threads are for cutting on a lathe!  If I don't want to read it, I can skip it--easy.  IN this particular discussion there are two or three threads, and I enjoy reading them ALL--it reminds me that I still woke up this morning and could still make a cup-o'.  Life is too short to whine about tiny details like "whose thread is this?  Am I allowed to post my thots on something related but not exactly on form?"  Or even unrelated sometimes.


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## William May (Jun 17, 2020)

Just because something may be "technically unrelated" DOES NOT mean it is actually unrelated. This thread evolved based on the questions, concerns, and contributed information  that were raised on a particular subject, and they are ALL interrelated. If you want to understand this thread, you need to read the WHOLE THING in order to understand how the conversation evolved.  And if you do that, you will understand the complete thread. So there hasn't been any hi-jacking on this thread. Just because the angle of inquiry changes, does not mean the thread has changed. 
And, typically, if ONE person has raised a point, then there are probably 100 or MORE other people who have the exact same questions. The road to knowledge is rarely a straight line.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 17, 2020)

William May said:


> Just because something may be "technically unrelated" DOES NOT mean it is actually unrelated. This thread evolved based on the questions, concerns, and contributed information  that were raised on a particular subject, and they are ALL interrelated. If you want to understand this thread, you need to read the WHOLE THING in order to understand how the conversation evolved.  And if you do that, you will understand the complete thread. So there hasn't been any hi-jacking on this thread. Just because the angle of inquiry changes, does not mean the thread has changed.
> And, typically, if ONE person has raised a point, then there are probably 100 or MORE other people who have the exact same questions. The road to knowledge is rarely a straight line.


Absolutely!  Thankyew.


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## RonW (Jun 18, 2020)

kinggt4 said:


> I just used DuckDuckGo and ordered the Model Engineering Workshop Manual for 43.57 pounds from Tee Publishing in England.  They were about the third link in the list.  Sorry to hijack the discussion, but if anyone is looking for the book it's much cheaper than the $4-500 price for a used version.
> 
> George


I just checked on Hemingway's site and they're advertising George Thomas's book at #23.95. Granted the latest catalogue is dated 2012 but when I queried a few weeks ago they assured me the prices still stood. I now see they've updated part of it, the catalogue,  so not sure where that stands. Anyone wanting that book it might pay them to investigate Hemingway's before they update any more.
RonW


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## William May (Jun 18, 2020)

Thanks!
I tried buying a copy of "Workshop Practices" from TEE publishing, but couldn't complete the transaction. When you clicked on the country to ship to, it would take you back to the beginning of the order form, and you had to start all over. After doing it 3 times (My name is Bill. People call me Bill) I gave up. I will check out Hemingway!.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 18, 2020)

RonW said:


> I just checked on Hemingway's site and they're advertising George Thomas's book at #23.95. Granted the latest catalogue is dated 2012 but when I queried a few weeks ago they assured me the prices still stood. I now see they've updated part of it, the catalogue,  so not sure where that stands. Anyone wanting that book it might pay them to investigate Hemingway's before they update any more.
> RonW


I just chekt HemingwayKits which is British and the cost was 27pounds plus 13 pounds shipping.  Is there a Hemingway in the US?  I have gotten things from Britain before and the price of shipping is a lot lower.  I personally don't do business with companies that charge excess "shipping and handling".  My view is that "shipping" can be charged for, naturally, but handling is part of the sale and if they don't charge enough to pay their employees for "handling"  then they lose my business.

Also, it seems there are three books by Geo. Thomas.


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## William May (Jun 18, 2020)

As far as I know, there ARE 3 books by George Thomas. I have been guided by people who knew all about George Thomas and his writings. 
A. "The Universal Pillartool"
B.  "Dividing and Graduating"
C. " The Model Engineer's Workshop Manual"
The last one was completed after his death. 
Shipping from Great Britain is HUGELY expensive.  I use to just order a casting when I was ready for it, but not anymore.  I plan my purchases, and check with the vendors to see if I am over a postage limit, and into the next (and more expensive) category. Sometimes I will hold off on buying a casting, because it would put my current order in a much higher cost bracket, and just wait and combine it with the next order. It's a general PITA.
    I go to Hershey, Pennsylvania every year for the Fall Meet, which is the largest antique car swap meet in the world. I ship a lot of my purchases from there, using the USPS flat rate boxes.  That is the way I ship magnetos, which typically weigh about 15-30 lbs. each.  I can ship up to 70 lbs. weight for about $20.  You would be lucky if you could get a 1 lb. package from England for $20, forget about a 15 lb. package. .   
But most of what you pay for "posting and packing" goes for the postage. That is what is expensive. Most places don't charge much, if at all, for the packing.  They aren't making any money off of the shipping charges.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 18, 2020)

William May said:


> As far as I know, there ARE 3 books by George Thomas. I have been guided by people who knew all about George Thomas and his writings.
> A. "The Universal Pillartool"
> B.  "Dividing and Graduating"
> C. " The Model Engineer's Workshop Manual"
> ...


Do you happen to know when these three books were printed?  Last year, I ordered a "used booK" from someplace and it turned up to be brand new--the difference was that it was a SINGLE book printed.  They can do that now, print a SINGLE book for very cheap.  so I am wondering why the books cannot be printed in the USA now and sold for reasonable prices.  Scarcity, of course, raises the price but also demand when high lowers the price.  I imagine that there is not really enough demand to lower the price.  Even tho' there are probably thousands of us who would buy the books for a lower, reasonable price.  I would.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 18, 2020)

Richard
 To come into the 21st Century,  I have read and built many of the projects  of George Thomas. They were edited and still appear in TWO books. 
The projects were written for the then most popular lathe in the UK i.e the Myford 7. Since all this happened, Myford as we knew  went into liquidation and  was taken over by RDG Tools. The latter provide a service for spares and also sell reconditioned - but NOT new Myfords.
 The reconditioned machines sold bare of any accessories from £3000 to some staggering £8000. 
Make no mistake Myfords are a cult and if you follow my 'drivel' I am a fully paid up member
I have the latest - and possibly last model. Obviously, they are much sought after.
Arguably,  the nearest NEW lathes are the Siegs at a fraction of the price but the contents of much of the content has to be converted into Metric dimensions and the chapters of the latter book 'Workshop Techniques' on Dividing and Graduating is primarily written for those owners who have 'bull wheels' in neither 65 teeth for the ML20 and the ML7 and 60 teeth for the Super7.  Here is the task of factorising- beloved of small grandchildren.  In my opinion, the only tool for other than Myfords, is the Small dividing head and if you want all the bells and whistles( like me) you go on to extra Acme thread- di dah, di dah!
Even it that, there is a need to change the Myford type spindle to one to take the Chinese accessories for the Siegs and suchlike.

Then comes the real crunch. You enter into copyright!  I did speak to Kirk at Hemmingwaykits  about the editor i.e. Der Bill Bennett BDS( Dunelm) as I hadn't seen him since the 50th Anniversary of his and my late wife's graduation.  Doing a bit of cockeyed arithmetic, my wife had she lived would have been 82 but Bill did two years National Service before dentistry and will or might be 84. 

Finally( I hope), there is a sort of comparison with GHT's friend Professor  Dennis Chaddock who designed the Quorn and had Ivan Law of  Gear Cutting fame supply the castings etc. Model Engineering Services no longer exists and a American supplier Martin Models has only a few castings which he has made left.

Digressing somewhat, Hemingwaykits has developed a Quorn Mark 3.  The price of the kit and drawings will frighten you. Having a Mark1, I bought the new drawings to update things and the price was- without postage anywhere, about the same as GHT's two books.

My thoughts but I hope that they are not ones gazing into the East and expect another miracle to happen.

Norman at 90 years


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## Richard Hed (Jun 18, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Richard
> To come into the 21st Century,  I have read and built many of the projects  of George Thomas. They were edited and still appear in TWO books.
> The projects were written for the then most popular lathe in the UK i.e the Myford 7. Since all this happened, Myford as we knew  went into liquidation and  was taken over by RDG Tools. The latter provide a service for spares and also sell reconditioned - but NOT new Myfords.
> The reconditioned machines sold bare of any accessories from £3000 to some staggering £8000.
> ...


So does this mean that I should only try to obtain the two edited books, or is the third one a goo one too?  I haven't lookt into the Sieg, but that is German for "Victory"  (Hail Victory and all that), so is Sieg a German model?  I am looking into a Chinese one, There are litterally hundreds of companies in China making lathes.  Unfortunately, one does not know which ones really hold up, have all the bits one needs, are reputable, back up the product, have spare parts, and all the bells and whistles to buy for it, without hassle.  They obviously have SOME reputable companies, but the thing is, their prices REALLY ARE very cheap.  I'm thimking, since it is so close to Philippines I could travel there and check out the stuff in person.  (the chinese are really impressed by that.)  There is one company "Siecc" obviously trying to masquerade as "Sieg", even using the name with something not quite understandable in English:  "
*sieg lathe machine oil pump for lathe machine*
  ".  I don't know what that means.  This machine is 5000$US, 2000mm long between centers a 3 " spindle, has the usual bells and whistles and is 10HP!  Well, it's too big, unnecessarily big.  there are others that are only 1000mm for about the same price which is much more in line with what I require.  so my other option is to buy from Grizzly, a company that sells Chinese stuff, backs up their stuff with no hassle, immediately and has access to spare parts, accessories and etc.  Shipping is a bit less with Grizz but not really all that much.  The thing is, that 3" spindle has me dazzled on the Siecc

As far as converting to metric, AutoCAD, and I don't know about other CADs , has a feature that allows you to put in metric measurements in brakets [ ] right next to the inch dimension.  As far as Hemingway Kits, goes, I periodically look at their stuff and, you are correct, it is frightening prices, I just close it.  the thing is, that if the company does not make enough off their product, they have no choice but to go out of business.  So they are caught between trhying to reduce prices but keepin g up enough to survive.  As for my cheap self, I look at the product, say castings, and I thimk to myself, I could make that for a tenth the price, so why would I buy it?  If I can make somethign for a tenth the price, then anyone in business who has to pay for machines, labor, sales and all that, should be able to make and sell for less than what they sell it for and STILL make a profit.  the Economy of scale is such that the crappy tools I use would be outclassed (and a much higher price, of course that has to be paid for) means they can produce the same item that I can in onesey, twosey but the hundreds they can make are barely any more cost than my one or two!  Obviously it is more complex than that but the princi-ple, in my not so humble opionion is still correct.  so I'm always wondering why good companies go out of business.


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## Cogsy (Jun 18, 2020)

William May said:


> Shipping from Great Britain is HUGELY expensive.  [SNIP]
> But most of what you pay for "posting and packing" goes for the postage. That is what is expensive. Most places don't charge much, if at all, for the packing.  They aren't making any money off of the shipping charges.



Think yourself lucky that you live in the US and don't need to get anything shipped overseas from the US. Half the companies just refuse to sell to overseas customers and most of the ones that do want an absolute fortune for shipping. As an example, 2 oilseals 1/4" ID 1/2" OD (so could fit in a normal envelope) $30 shipping, or (the worst I ever had) 1 foot of 1" 1144 stressproof bar, ~$25 for the steel and $255 shipping! These are all in USD. 

Even stuff off eBay has prohibitively expensive shipping if coming from the US, more so if they use the eBay 'Global shipping' method. I just checked a random 2-56 tap from eBay and it had $22 shipping on it! Rant over


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## Richard Hed (Jun 18, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> Think yourself lucky that you live in the US and don't need to get anything shipped overseas from the US. Half the companies just refuse to sell to overseas customers and most of the ones that do want an absolute fortune for shipping. As an example, 2 oilseals 1/4" ID 1/2" OD (so could fit in a normal envelope) $30 shipping, or (the worst I ever had) 1 foot of 1" 1144 stressproof bar, ~$25 for the steel and $255 shipping! These are all in USD.
> 
> Even stuff off eBay has prohibitively expensive shipping if coming from the US, more so if they use the eBay 'Global shipping' method. I just checked a random 2-56 tap from eBay and it had $22 shipping on it! Rant over


If that is all true, I hope you didn't buy it.  They must have hired a jet for 4 hour delivery.  There is no real reason for that.  Shipping by sea is very cheap.  Any item can be put in a container that is being shipt to where ever with other items just like a truck of mail being delivered to any destination and then distributed from a central distribution center.  If they are not doing that, then there is room to build a shipping company.


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## BaronJ (Jun 19, 2020)

Hi Guys,

The Chinese are getting cute over postage, carriage and shipping charges.  Everywhere used to advertise "Free Postage" !  Not any more.  The free postage is quickly vanishing.


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## L98fiero (Jun 19, 2020)

I automatically dismiss anyone on eBay that ships only with the Global shipping, especially on small, light parts, if it's shipped by USPS and is under $200 CDN, it usually doesn't even go through customs and when it does, the brokerage is $5. If it's couriered, it makes little difference in cost but shipping will take longer.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 19, 2020)

L98fiero said:


> I automatically dismiss anyone on eBay that ships only with the Global shipping, especially on small, light parts, if it's shipped by USPS and is under $200 CDN, it usually doesn't even go through customs and when it does, the brokerage is $5. If it's couriered, it makes little difference in cost but shipping will take longer.


I occassionally have to shiip somethign by LBC to or from the Philippines--I had to send some papers very quickly from Phils to USA --it cost 20$  which horrified me, but it got there in less than 48hrs.  There are other small shippers, some who ship anywhere in the world a package of a certain size and shape with ANY amount of weight for 100$ per box (the price may have gone up, don't know) and if you ship 4, you get one free.  Problem is that it might take 3 months to get your package.  If no hurry, then fine, else. . . .

I really hate when some manufacturor or distributor gets you all hookt on someting, then charges what I KNOW is an outlandish shipping fee.  I've had small, flat items that could be shipt in an envelope in USPS but was shipt some other method costing more.  I'm retired--I can't afford ANY excess price.  I've cut them off many times.  For those of you who don't know, it's a FACT that the "hinge that squeaks, gets the grease"--that is, if you don't complain, then YOU are part of the problem.  You shoulc complain to these naughty vendors who, some of them don't give a damn, others do.  If they learn of their bad behavior, sometimes they do somethign about it.  Naturally, the smaller they are, the more theyshould and usually do, care.  One thing you should know about this process is that the first time there is a complaint ANYWHERE, it is dismissed.  The second complaint gets a "hmmph" and the third complaint often gets lip service or a small amount of action.  It is the complaints that come after the third complaint that starts getting action.  For small to medium companies, they know they have to respond or lose business and occassionaly even go out of business because of their bad practices.  (I bought a whirlpool oven last year and it is a total piece of KRAP).  the large companies don't care--they're too large to care.


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## NickP (Jun 19, 2020)

William May said:


> As far as I know, there ARE 3 books by George Thomas. I have been guided by people who knew all about George Thomas and his writings.
> A. "The Universal Pillartool"
> B.  "Dividing and Graduating"
> C. " The Model Engineer's Workshop Manual"
> ...


We have friends in the States (we live in England). Went to send our friend her birthday present and they post office wanted to charge over £50  because the package was over 2kg (2.2ib). Needless to say the parcel was repacked and some candy removed to get it under 2kg which brought the cost down to about £18 just for the postage never mind the extra for the poly-bag. I dread to think how much castings or materials would cost. Wonder if couriers like UPS are any cheaper?


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## Richard Hed (Jun 19, 2020)

NickP said:


> We have friends in the States (we live in England). Went to send our friend her birthday present and they post office wanted to charge over £50  because the package was over 2kg (2.2ib). Needless to say the parcel was repacked and some candy removed to get it under 2kg which brought the cost down to about £18 just for the postage never mind the extra for the poly-bag. I dread to think how much castings or materials would cost. Wonder if couriers like UPS are any cheaper?


One good thing about private enterprise is that WHEN there is real competition, prices drop.  I have seen times when FEDEX has goo prices and times where I consider them absurd, the same with UPS which I consider to usually be better, and the worst of all, USPS, actually has some goo prices sometimes esp. for a box of a certain size no matter what is in it.  I bought a lot of materials for making a telescope mirrors last year which was shipt from the mid west and the shipping was a very goo price.  Other times, I really thimk, the sender is cheating because the shipping seems to vary widely from places very nearly the same.


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## terryd (Jun 20, 2020)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> The Chinese are getting cute over postage, carriage and shipping charges.  Everywhere used to advertise "Free Postage" !  Not any more.  The free postage is quickly vanishing.



I find that most Chinese stuff is still post-free and when they do charge the cost is nominal.  Postage costs from the US to the UK are horrendous as I found out when renovating a Honda CB 350 which are as rare as hens' teeth in the UK but plentiful in the 'States.  On small plastic items such as nameplates in a 'jiffy' bag, the postage was several times the cost of the part. It is the same on most eBay items from the 'States to the UK the postage is very high. for example, a 2-56 tap mentioned by Cogsy above on eBay a Chinese one is £3.50 (2 for £6.47) Post free, From the 'States it costs £9.60 each plus £14.58 postage.  You can get a tap and drill set from the US for £5.43 but postage is £11.15.

What used to surprise me was that from different suppliers in the US postage prices on the same item could be as much as double between the two.

TerryD


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## L98fiero (Jun 20, 2020)

terryd said:


> What used to surprise me was that from different suppliers in the US postage prices on the same item could be as much as double between the two.
> TerryD


And then you will see a $50 item listed for $5 with $45 shipping, it's just a way to catch the unwary or the inattentive, you are buying at a 'good' price after all!


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## RonW (Jun 20, 2020)

NickP said:


> We have friends in the States (we live in England). Went to send our friend her birthday present and they post office wanted to charge over £50  because the package was over 2kg (2.2ib). Needless to say the parcel was repacked and some candy removed to get it under 2kg which brought the cost down to about £18 just for the postage never mind the extra for the poly-bag. I dread to think how much castings or materials would cost. Wonder if couriers like UPS are any cheaper?


I'm in the process of importing to Canada from UK, two sets of castings for steady rests for my Myford ML 7. In round numbers castings #59 and shipping by courier #38. Sorry about the # symbols but my phone doesn't run to, or I haven't found, the proper symbol for UK pounds. The up side? Delivery in four days instead of four months.
RonW


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## RonW (Jun 20, 2020)

RonW said:


> I'm in the process of importing to Canada from UK, two sets of castings for steady rests for my Myford ML 7. In round numbers castings #59 and shipping by courier #38. Sorry about the # symbols but my phone doesn't run to, or I haven't found, the proper symbol for UK pounds. The up side? Delivery in four days instead of four months.
> RonW


An add on to my last. Just had a call from FedEx and they want $12 for our illustrious HST and $10 for clearance PLUS 13p/ c tax on the clearance fee. Now makes another $24 and change. No wonder no one wants to deal with UK companies. I've imported hundreds of dollars worth from China and am yet to be charged clearance or taxes. Go figure. It's beyond me.
RonW


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## rmd55 (Jun 20, 2020)

I work for a small business that made tungsten carbide. when the owner retired and sold out to a much larger company our UPS shipping rates dropped by almost 1/2. The Chinese global mail was to the US was being subsidized by the USPS.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 20, 2020)

I was looking at taps and you still buy 1/2"x 11 tap 

Dave


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## wthomas (Jun 21, 2020)

Hi Richard:
     One of the reason people cant stay in business is the cost of taxes and insurance.  The last year I manufactured special tools my insurance cost more
then my gross income.  I worked a side job to live on.  And my tool I sold was safer the a pair of pliers as the jaws could not be closed down tight.  
Just from my experience.
                                             Bill Thomas


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## SmithDoor (Jun 21, 2020)

Why would get insurance that that mush???

Dave


wthomas said:


> Hi Richard:
> One of the reason people cant stay in business is the cost of taxes and insurance.  The last year I manufactured special tools my insurance cost more
> then my gross income.  I worked a side job to live on.  And my tool I sold was safer the a pair of pliers as the jaws could not be closed down tight.
> Just from my experience.
> Bill Thomas


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## wthomas (Jun 21, 2020)

Dave:
     I sold the tools to a wholesaler that required $2,000,000.00 Lib. ins.  The tool was for auto repair,
had the tool been for the medical field it would have cost five to ten times as much.
                                                                                           Bill


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## Howder1951 (Jun 21, 2020)

Buyer beware, those low shipping costs and production costs from China are step one in corporate strategy, once they have destroyed the competition, they can charge what they wish and they will!


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## melgump (Jun 21, 2020)

William May said:


> Thanks very much, Terry! I will be looking them up today!
> I am a annoyed that the "global web" will only show results from the U.S. when a particular product is easily and widely available from the U.K. I notice this as a very common situation., and it irks me a LOT!


Just saw today: gandmtools.co.uk , have a copy for £12,00 + p&p.
Cheers,
Ray.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 21, 2020)

Howder1951 said:


> Buyer beware, those low shipping costs and production costs from China are step one in corporate strategy, once they have destroyed the competition, they can charge what they wish and they will!


THat's exactly what Japan inc. did.  Remember?


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## Richard Hed (Jun 21, 2020)

SmithDoor said:


> Why would get insurance that that mush???
> 
> Dave





wthomas said:


> Hi Richard:
> One of the reason people cant stay in business is the cost of taxes and insurance.  The last year I manufactured special tools my insurance cost more
> then my gross income.  I worked a side job to live on.  And my tool I sold was safer the a pair of pliers as the jaws could not be closed down tight.
> Just from my experience.
> Bill Thomas


I know.  there is a lot more complication to this but What you say is true.  Thing is, we simply MUST pay taxes for roads, sewers, electric, water etc.  Even defense--just not for constant wars which are really only an enterprise (with people's lives at stake too) for the super super super rich--those rich persons who you never hear of but they own the Deutche Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, the Bank of England and one in Paris and some others.  These monsters thrive on war materiel and don't give a damn about your sons and daughters and yourself.  We have to have research for military engines of destruction, but be don't needs to be constantly going to war with them--that has a great deal to do with why our taxes are so exorbitant.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 22, 2020)

Richard
The super super super rich are not interested in what you say and the super super poor super poor are equally clueless.

The really rich always save some money, the rest of people not only have debts and actually increase them .

There was  a snippet this morning on 'the Goggle box that the  average wealth of UK is only £1900.
During this pandemic people are going further into debt whilst another set are actually 'saving money' as they are prevented from taking holidays or eating out or whatever.
I had a look at my bank balances- need I say more?
Well perhaps a bit. The super rich are not the people who have stocks and shares but own one of the factors of production called LAND.  I might have a teeny bit, fully paid and a bit in a brace of banks and a brace of pharmaceuticals as we all are either going to need medicines - or an undertaker.

People with land- and that is not me- don't talk about it.
Laughingly, there are a couple of old codgers who have come out of their respective gutters, who regularly have their noses in a drop or two of decent malt whisky but we may be couple of old wrecks but we watch people who spend  money which they can't afford to spend.

A thought or two- before one sets off to buy that bit for the workshop that they really can't afford.


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## L98fiero (Jun 22, 2020)

Howder1951 said:


> Buyer beware, those low shipping costs and production costs from China are step one in corporate strategy, once they have destroyed the competition, they can charge what they wish and they will!


FWIW, that is not restricted to China!


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## Richard Hed (Jun 22, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Richard
> The super super super rich are not interested in what you say and the super super poor super poor are equally clueless.
> 
> The really rich always save some money, the rest of people not only have debts and actually increase them .
> ...


Oh that is absolutely correct, the super (cubed) don't give a damn about what I say, and yes, they buy land, pharmaceuticals and BANKS.  They are invisible.  They use their wealth and status  to milk wars, start wars and sell guns to both sides.  They are extremely evil people and yet if you met one you would thimk him/her an upstanding responsible citizen.  they needs to be hung.

As far as my work shop goes, I am working in the feilds earning enough to pay cash for mye new toys.


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