# Little Adept lathe for my 5 year old



## JCSteam (Sep 1, 2020)

Hello all, 

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on starting them young?

My little boy will be 5 in a month or so. I was given this little adept lathe by my partners dad, been a bit small for me, I thought that it would be nice to get sorted out for Josh who's a natural builder fix it kinda lad. 




As you can see in the pic he is very pleased to have his own small sized lathe to learn basics of turning. I've started stripping the lathe down, to clean up and repaint it. Currently it has a sewing machine motor driving it, which will probably be sufficient power for what he is going to use it for. 

I'm going to make a new face plate, or at least true up the existing one, as it is a very wobbly setup. I also want to make a little layshaft for it to help gear it down and provide a little more torque. This will probably be a cantilever type with the motor hanging off the back to aid belt tension. 

As it is it's stripped down to its components and the paint stripper was applied last night. So tonight I'll get the first coat of paint on it.


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## IanN (Sep 1, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm wondering what your thoughts are on starting them young?
> 
> ...



Hi,

My five year old grandson uses my Drummond 3 1/2 inch B type flat-bed (that is 3 1/2 inch UK nomenclature - it would be defined as 7 inch in “the colonies”)

He stands on a box (due to height compatibility issues) between me and the lathe, with me looking over his shoulder and in a position to intervene quickly if things go wrong.

He has made a screwdriver (which involved a knurled handle, some taper turning and single point cutting a 12mm external thread) and an oscillating steam engine with boiler (he used the torch for the soft soldering, but I did the brazing)

My six year old grand daughter shows no interest in the workshop at all...

If I were you, I would get him involved in the restoration.

Ian


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## JCSteam (Sep 1, 2020)

Hi 

I couldn't reply earlier as I was working and only quickly read your reply. 

I will get him involved in reassembly hopefully then he'll know how it goes together. Where oil is put ect.
For the paint stripping part and painting it, not so much, as painting is not his fortay and the whole thing including the bed and slides will be covered.

See how far we get tonight. 

Regards
Jon


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## Apprentice707 (Sep 2, 2020)

Good to see the youngsters being encouraged to use their hands and minds to produce things.
My Father gave me a Super Adept when I was about 10 years old and I still have it ( I am 74 years young).
During this time it has traveled with me to the USA and Holland and other postings I had during my service with the Royal Air Force. 
It sustained some transit damage once and I had to replace the mandrel with a new one, in this process, I also beefed up the item, but retained the nose thread. 
These days it has semi-retired, but does get outings to my model engineering clubs' open days and is always met with comments like "I remember those" and "That's like my first lathe"
It is powered by my mothers' old sewing machine motor and if used "gently" can achieve some nice work.

Good luck with the restoration.

Here is the item in original colour:-


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## JCSteam (Sep 2, 2020)

Nice, what is the little 3 jaw from? Also could I trouble you for faceplate dimensions/drawing for the OD and slots, The one I have is just made (badly) from some plate steel. Id like to make it as original with the slots and make some clamps to keep with it. Most likely using something like coach bolts shortened, and a small angle plate for the faceplate also.  

I note that your tailstock is different to mine. Yours having a bolt to the top, mine has a lever to the rear.

Regards
Jon


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## Richard Hed (Sep 2, 2020)

IanN said:


> Hi,
> 
> My five year old grandson uses my Drummond 3 1/2 inch B type flat-bed (that is 3 1/2 inch UK nomenclature - it would be defined as 7 inch in “the colonies”)
> 
> ...


Just to chime in: my degree is psychology--You ARE CORRECT more than you can ever know!  One should always interact with little kidz as much as you can stand (might needs someone else to take over at some [point, might wear out an adult!)--gets their brain cell connections going and creates brilliant kidz.  However, one of the harder parts in this is that you yourself will need to branch out into other subjects to interact, ones you may not have experience with yourself.  Called an enriched environment.  You might also show the kidz how to draw by hand the things they build and connect numbers to the dwgs.  Many many other things too.

I could write a book on this, don't get me started, I have too many other things to do.


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## JCSteam (Sep 2, 2020)

Richard,

I have to get him to count properly first, that's without going into the decimables, and fractures of numbers. He gets all the right numbers but in the wrong order. 

I have shown him some plans before, and although he couldn't understand them, he could work out what shape the part should be which is a good start, and took a real interest in them. My partner is a much better teacher of academic things, she is a TA in a school after all. Me I was around average at best. 

I do think getting him to draw something to make will at least give him some idea of what he wants to make, and engage a lot with him, the way to make it is down to me to show him. 

Jon


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## cadsculptor (Sep 2, 2020)

Hi JC, I agree - as early as possible, given that they understand how to operate the equipment safely. My son started with a small cordless drill at about 5 - he had a blast drilling random holes in any scrap I could find.
Forget about the counting thing - show him how to not hurt himself, give him some easy-to-machine stock and let him go! 
Don't let the refinishing project take too long - you want to get him going while his interest is high - a week max for a 5 year old.
I would definitely put a guard over that belt drive...
Good Luck and enjoy watching what he does on his own - I learned more than a couple creative solutions from my kids.
Paul


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## JCSteam (Sep 2, 2020)

Well a second coat of red in-between the bed, and on the pulley, then paint the rest of the bits Green, its taken me longer to mask off the slides than it will to paint. Also a quick visit to the oven while the missus is in bed and fabreeze afterwards to hide any smell and the paint should last a long time. 

Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 2, 2020)

I am a bit chary as it seriously hints at Ignatius Loyala. One of my studies at 14 after an Education Commtee tried to turn me into a Young Communist. I lived a stone's throw from a place in County Durham  dubbed as "Little Moscow'
I was very lucky eventually and got a classical education. Not enough but I had finally a superb headmaster. I sort of owe it to him for my maths and - oddly, aftr all those years, becoming a Freemason. 
As for my two children, they were educated 'in the arts and sciences' and were free to make up their own minds. Both had IQ's beyond my relatively average of 135 and one became a fluent Francophile whilst the other became a consultant orthodontist but both had all sorts of hobbies, swimming, sub aqua, skiing, sailing, music-- and finance and such with extra properties.
Both have more than manual dexterity as daughter plays piano, clarinet, saxophone recorder and flute whilst son is happy to take a Lotus to bits- and borrow my tools


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## JCSteam (Sep 2, 2020)

Funnily enough my missus echo'd the same, but while he shows an interest in any mechanical bits, I will continue to encourage. But rest assured Norm he will be having an education, this is I guess play. Ive always found that the kids learn better (certainly I did) if there is something that is of interest to them, So for example he will have to learn his numbers right to know how many turns of the handles he needs to get to the right dimension, I'll also show him basics of measuring, even if he isn't actually doing the sums, Hopefully he will see how its done, ill talk through how its done, and he'll learn. I can but hope, if all else fails I have a little lathe to do decorative pieces on.  He is incredibly bright lad, a problem solver, so should suit engineering well. But ultimately what he does in later life is up to him, and his choice. 

Jon


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## Richard Hed (Sep 2, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Richard,
> 
> I have to get him to count properly first, that's without going into the decimables, and fractures of numbers. He gets all the right numbers but in the wrong order.
> 
> ...


Even if kidz don't understand, they still should be exposed to it earlier than one might thimk.  It is well known that they LITERALLY (and I am using this word PROPERLY) CANNOT do certain things till their neurons have formed to a certain degree--HOWEVER, being exposed to it before the neurons are formed properly, they STILL record the information and when their brain is ready, they are 10 steps ahead of kidz without the enriched environment.  So, the theory (again proper use of the term) is that the kidz should be exposed to more than they are capable at any one time of absorbing.  Not too much tho' and no lectures about it. KISS, keep it stupid, simple.


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## Richard Hed (Sep 2, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Funnily enough my missus echo'd the same, but while he shows an interest in any mechanical bits, I will continue to encourage. But rest assured Norm he will be having an education, this is I guess play. Ive always found that the kids learn better (certainly I did) if there is something that is of interest to them, So for example he will have to learn his numbers right to know how many turns of the handles he needs to get to the right dimension, I'll also show him basics of measuring, even if he isn't actually doing the sums, Hopefully he will see how its done, ill talk through how its done, and he'll learn. I can but hope, if all else fails I have a little lathe to do decorative pieces on.  He is incredibly bright lad, a problem solver, so should suit engineering well. But ultimately what he does in later life is up to him, and his choice.
> 
> Jon


Be very careful what you say, education is a very sensitive subject with me--what we get in the schools now is not education--it is training for factory work (and not very good at that).  Read John Taylor Gatto's books, (one is enough) but be sure to find out WHO JTG is and what he's done.  Then if you wish to find out WHO we are all working for (really now, you should insert the word 'slaving for') read "Kill Zone".  You'll read something that should outrage you.  What YOU, Jon, are doing with your son is education.  Be sure to give the SAME education to your girls, that is, teach them men's things, and your boys, teach them women's things as well as men's things.  These are all fake classifications anyhow.


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## Apprentice707 (Sep 3, 2020)

Apprentice707 said:


> Good to see the youngsters being encouraged to use their hands and minds to produce things.
> My Father gave me a Super Adept when I was about 10 years old and I still have it ( I am 74 years young).
> During this time it has traveled with me to the USA and Holland and other postings I had during my service with the Royal Air Force.
> It sustained some transit damage once and I had to replace the mandrel with a new one, in this process, I also beefed up the item, but retained the nose thread.
> ...


Hello,

I can do better than a drawing of the faceplate, I had a look in my bits and pieces and came across a spare faceplate (a pic is attached) you are welcome to it please contact me on ???????????? and we can arrange to pick up or delivery depending on how far we live apart. I also attach photos of a hand rest and angle plate I have, I don't wish to dispose of these but you are welcome to the dimensions.

The 3 jaw lever scroll chuck came from Harbor Freight in the States, cost $12,50 + tax. Don't think that is repeatable. It works well and is quite accurate.


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## JCSteam (Sep 3, 2020)

Superb, many thanks, email on the way  may be an idea to edit your post and remove your email before scammers or phishing types find it, I have it copied. 

Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 3, 2020)

Hi Jon, Norman, Guys,

Nice to meet you and the family the other day.  I've just got back from visiting granddaughter in Birmingham.
I've yet to have a look at the box of bits from Norman but will get around to that Tomorrow all being well.


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## JCSteam (Sep 3, 2020)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Jon, Norman, Guys,
> 
> Nice to meet you and the family the other day.  I've just got back from visiting granddaughter in Birmingham.
> I've yet to have a look at the box of bits from Norman but will get around to that Tomorrow all being well.


The pleasure was mine, hope they are a lot of use to you. 
Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 5, 2020)

Hi Guys,

Just a quick update !  I've been looking at a Parvalux motor that Norman (Goldstar)  kindly gave me.  Having tested it and got it running Ok,  I've removed the rightangle double ended gearbox that was bolted to one end along with the worm that was pinned to the motor shaft.  I had to make a 2 mm diameter punch with a 1 mm diameter spigot on the end so that the punch located in the through hole of the Sellok pin holding the worm onto the shaft..  The motor runs at 2880 rpm and the gearbox reduced that to 540 rpm.  Just a little bit slow for a grinding spindle !









Pictures of the motor, now minus its gearbox !


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## JCSteam (Sep 5, 2020)

An update from me too. 


Lathe is now painted up to match daddies myford. I forgot the tool clamp though so will have to paint that separately. Masking take and blue tack to bung the holes up.

Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 5, 2020)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just a quick update !  I've been looking at a Parvalux motor that Norman (Goldstar)  kindly gave me.  Having tested it and got it running Ok,  I've removed the rightangle double ended gearbox that was bolted to one end along with the worm that was pinned to the motor shaft.  I had to make a 2 mm diameter punch with a 1 mm diameter spigot on the end so that the punch located in the through hole of the Sellok pin holding the worm onto the shaft..  The motor runs at 2880 rpm and the gearbox reduced that to 540 rpm.  Just a little bit slow for a grinding spindle !
> 
> ...



So you should be aiming for 7000 rpm's.

I ordered a set of grinding wheels from Hemingway's mine were a bit( read helluva a lot) old.
Not cheap but the Quorn does most things. Then I got a wheel to fit the Worden i the kit. Tried it on my Kennet at about 70000 rpm and was impressed with the finish although it only 60 grit----- and said, to Hell with the Children's Inheritance-- and bought another one for the kennel itself.
I maybe doing something right or wrong but I got the hss lathe tool from it to cut vastly better than the CCMT 6020 carbide insert.

As no body has - or seems to have made  a comparison, I'm for the home brewed 'Norman' efforts.
Surprised


Norman


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## BaronJ (Sep 6, 2020)

Hi Guys,

The couple of wheels that I currently have are rated for a maximum speed of 5500 rpm.  However its not difficult to adjust pulley sizes to get higher or lower speeds.


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## BaronJ (Sep 6, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> An update from me too.
> View attachment 119114
> 
> Lathe is now painted up to match daddies myford. I forgot the tool clamp though so will have to paint that separately. Masking take and blue tack to bung the holes up.
> ...



Hi Jon,

Nice job.

I bought a 2.5 Ltr tin of supposedly Myford green, its much darker !
Anyway its not stopped me from using it on just about everything I built or refurbished.  I've got a few scratches that could do with touching up but the colour difference stands out like a sore thumb !


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## goldstar31 (Sep 6, 2020)

As one says

Green is a fugitive colour.

Methinks it is now time to paint my accessories for the new-ish Myford

Best Wishes

N


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## JCSteam (Sep 6, 2020)

The green enamel I've got I bought at 50p a tin, the red hasn't gone on too well, too much thinners but the green paints lovely and leaves a nice smooth surface over even the rough castings of the Adept. I decided not to fettle them smooth before painting as that's how they came from the factory so retains its cheap and ready charm. Others may disagree but still none the less it's for my little boy. At the moment he won't notice the difference. (I hope lol).

On with assembly today.
Jon


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## L98fiero (Sep 6, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> I maybe doing something right or wrong but I got the hss lathe tool from it to cut vastly better than the CCMT 6020 carbide insert.


Have you tried the CCGT inserts? Yes, I know they are for non-ferrous but I've used them, at the appropriate speed, for 304 and 316 austenitic stainless where they work well for finishing cuts and boring and low power lathes should benefit from the reduced forces because of the top rake, they perform much like HSS.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 6, 2020)

Can these be bought through  UK person/firm, plese?

I don't do payments  to ''abroad' having been done before

Thanks

Norman


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## L98fiero (Sep 6, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Can these be bought through  UK person/firm, plese?


If your asking about the inserts, they'll definitely be available pretty much anywhere. Just a quick Google search shows Chronos has a package of 10 inserts for £20


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## goldstar31 (Sep 6, 2020)

L98fiero said:


> If your asking about the inserts, they'll definitely be available pretty much anywhere. Just a quick Google search shows Chronos has a package of 10 inserts for £20


Thank you- I got my 8mm set of tools from Chronos. I'm very happy  though with high quality hss tools-- driven by a Quorn etc


As you say, it will be worth an experiment 

Thanks you, Best Wishes

Norman


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## JCSteam (Sep 6, 2020)

Well, after an eventful day, involving my two boys, and the cat, and an even more eventful drive to drop the kids all home. I can finally get around to posting a pic.
Taken a test cut with the tools that came with it and not surprisingly the cut wasn't great, so I think a grind tommorrow and get a sharp tool. It was shiny but not cutting right. As for me long day, (+4hour drive) so turning in for the night.









Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 6, 2020)

Jon

 Are the spindle and the cast iron bearings worn ?   Perhaps,  you do with a pair of Oilite bearings.
Regards

N


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## JCSteam (Sep 7, 2020)

I'm going to sharpen the tool and cut slowly, plus get it on centre height correctly, seemed to cut better when slow, but seemed to chatter when faster. So first make sure the tools sharpened right, set right then look at new spindle ect if i still have issues.
Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 7, 2020)

If and I wrote 'if' the bed is flat--- and the tailstock is parallel to the bed, you could successfully use a boring tool to remove the wear and provide a new bearing surface. Then-- and 'Then' you make a new mandrel to fit.

i don't think that you have a hope in Hell of boring it held at 90 degrees on your Amolco.

My thoughts of course

Cheers

Norman


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## JCSteam (Sep 7, 2020)

The bore seemed good to be honest, spindle maybe worn a little. But considering the tools are an unknown I'll see what it's like after that. Needs a layshaft for more torque at low speed. It'll let the motor run at full RPM too which should mean less likely to burn stuff out.

I do take your point on the spindle boring, and there isn't a hope of boring it on the mill I have.

Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 7, 2020)

Jon

          The snag with old age is that one finally throws out a lot of information-- and then neding it.
I DO recall David Lammas writing in Model Engineer about the ML4 restoration and illustrating the two types of wear etc on a plain spindle.

I have forgotten  which was which.

Sad- isn't it

N


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## JCSteam (Sep 7, 2020)

After having a quick think, it may be possible to bore the spindle, IF the bed is flat, by turning the milling head 180° and hanging it off the back of the ML4 bed, by bolting an angle plate to the tailstock end of the bed, would be a bit of a precarious setup though on a cantilever bed. 
I'll look up the articles if I can.
Regards
Jon


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## modeng2000 (Sep 7, 2020)

Hi Jon,
I wondered if you would like to see the Wizard lathe I am just restoring. It is very similar to the Adept as you can see.
I've been following your posts with interest and they have been helpful to me in deciding about layout, motor etc. I have been wondering if there are any benefits from having a countershaft. Perhaps the motor speed could be higher for a given spindle speed and so more torque for the machning.

The 8mm square shank insert tools seem to be made for this size of lathe.
John


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## JCSteam (Sep 7, 2020)

The countershaft works as a gear train, a lot easier to drive your car up hill in 1st or 2nd gear than 5th. By reducing speed the torque is increased. The other benefit is there is less electrical resistance, so brushes last longer  and potentiometer switches are under less load. So easier on the electrics for benefit of more torque to remove metal.

Your lathe looks very nice. Is it a brushless motor your using?

At the moment I've got some 1/4" tooling and packing. Which a larger tool would mean less packing but not so much in the range of adjustable centre height. Once I've tried the lathe with a known sharp tool then I'll be better able to gauge if it needs work elsewhere.

Jon


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## modeng2000 (Sep 7, 2020)

The lathe was given to me many years ago together with an Adept but the Adept needed much more work to make it serviceable.

The motor is just a normal 100w sewing machine type obtained via the internet. I understand that a reasonable upper spindle speed is around 1000rpm. so with a reduction pulley ratio of about 3:1 the motor is not near its max revs of 7000. The speed control is a triac phase angle type, not very sophiscated and I have also a no volt-release switch as a safety precaution. The use of a countershaft increases the lathe footprint quite a bit which is why I haven't used one so far.

I'll continue to watch your progress with interest.
John


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## BaronJ (Sep 7, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> After having a quick think, it may be possible to bore the spindle, IF the bed is flat, by turning the milling head 180° and hanging it off the back of the ML4 bed, by bolting an angle plate to the tailstock end of the bed, would be a bit of a precarious setup though on a cantilever bed.
> I'll look up the articles if I can.
> Regards
> Jon



Hi Jon,

I wouldn't even think about boring the bearings for the spindle until you are absolutely sure that it is needed.

Make sure that your tools are as close to center height as you can get them.  Check and adjust the cross slide gib for minimum play whilst still being able to move it smoothly.  Do the same for the saddle !  Check the saddle at both ends of the bed, it will get tight as it moves towards the tail stock.

There are other things you can check but the ones I've mentioned should get you in the ball park.

Whilst I remember did you try the speed control ?


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## JCSteam (Sep 7, 2020)

Hi John,

No I've not tried the speed control yet, although it is sat with the lathe. I only finished getting the lathe back together yesterday, before all hell broke loose with the boys and the cat. Then the afore mentioned 4 hour drive, which included two children feeling travel sick, an unplanned toilet stop, a diversion, and lack of a good meal beforehand meant a bit of a grumpy driver. I finished putting it all together late last night after getting home, and the pics above are as far as I got.

The Gibs for the slides were all adjusted, and although a little stiff, there is no movement of the compound now. The saddle moves the full length of the bed easily without getting tighter, so signs are good for little wear. Need to get a bottle of oil with one of those blunt syringe needles fitted to make lubricating the oil holes easier, I used a cocktail stick and just let a drip into all the holes. the oil dispersed gradually, in the spindle, so I imagine the spindle is fairly good fit. overall the strip down clean and paint has improved the finish of the work no end from my initial test cut with no work done, so I'll grind some tools, dig the feeler gauges out, and set it up and see if it works better a second time around when I aren't so tired and have more patients to try trouble shooting the poor finish.

Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 7, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Hi John,
> 
> No I've not tried the speed control yet, although it is sat with the lathe. I only finished getting the lathe back together yesterday, before all hell broke loose with the boys and the cat. Then the afore mentioned 4 hour drive, which included two children feeling travel sick, an unplanned toilet stop, a diversion, and lack of a good meal beforehand meant a bit of a grumpy driver. I finished putting it all together late last night after getting home, and the pics above are as far as I got.
> 
> ...



Hi Jon, Guys,

Good to hear that the gibs are sorted.  As far as oil is concerned I have a number of plastic bottles, about 150 - 200 ml that have a nice spout.  If you want a couple text me somewhere to send them to.  As long as there is no bronze or brass bushes SAE 5 engine oil is good for general use.  I mention brass/bronze because some oils have additives that attack those metals.







As far as lathe tools are concerned, I was under the impression that 1/4" (6 mm) HSS tool stock was the correct size for that lathe.  I bought 200 mm lengths of 3, 4, 5, 6, and 12 x 2 mm HSS from Aliexpress for about £8, post free, good value for money, the only down side is that it took 4 weeks for them to arrive here.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 7, 2020)

I'm having n old fashioned thought about 'boring'

If the worn bore is notionally 1/2", why not make a D Bit from a pice of 13mm silver steel- and ruduce the part that goes through the tailstock and say- use a drill to rotate the cutting. Then make up the new slightly larger mandrel.

It's Sparey- not my idea

Norman


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Well after sat at the dining table working on the little lathe, messing around with the HSS tool, I was just about to set away on another cut to test what id done, when the magic smoke got out the foot pedal..........At first I thought it was a stone caught in the fish tank pump, then the crackle started and I realised. quickly unplugged from motor and wall. Thankfully nothing damaged externally. Though my cat sniffed at the foot pedal quite cautiously after hearing the crackling and coming to investigate. I believe the motor is undamaged but brought it into work to check before plugging it in again to any other power source.
Cut is better though before it packed up



So that's that, on with electrics before much more experimenting with tools, as I don't fancy a crank handle for the lathe lol.

Kind Regards
Jon

PS John text on the way thanks.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 8, 2020)

Jon
        Probably the foot controller is from a swing machine and if so, the repair kit((??) is under £4.

My thoughts for the day

Fingers crossed

Norman


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Hi,
I was a bit sceptical about using it to be honest, and also for me, let alone Josh. Is hard to control a constant speed at the spindle. So I think some form of speed controller knob would be better for usability. I've brought the motor into work today to ask the advice of some of the electricians on site, see if the dimmer switch John B gave me would work, or if I need something else. So waiting for one of them to get back to me. I've seen a little 240v controller on ebay with a cooling fan, which may be handy, for around £11. LINK
Which I think for the Wattage is overkill (4000w), but when the motor is under load will likely be pulling more current than the footswitch can handle hence overheating and letting the magic smoke out. The controller on ebay would also be very easy to set up and install within a box. I need to figure out which wires control the motor, then run some new cable from the motor, and attach an earth to it somewhere on the casing. I opened the motor casing up and there was four wires, two of these go to an isolator contacts, so that a small plastic piece is removed from the motor housing, with metal pins in, and presumably kills the flow of electricity to the foot pedal much like a blade fuse in your car. But have asked the electrician to figure out what Id need, and what would work.

The other option, if the dimmer switch cant be used, and the item linked above cant be used. However very costly (for a little adept), is to buy a 350w 24v motor, a 240v to 24v power supply, and a simple speed controller. This totals around £100, and is a last resort. Though would be much safer for Josh having only 24v instead of 240v as the power supply can be concealed away from curious hands. 

Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 8, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Hi,
> I was a bit sceptical about using it to be honest, and also for me, let alone Josh. Is hard to control a constant speed at the spindle. So I think some form of speed controller knob would be better for usability. I've brought the motor into work today to ask the advice of some of the electricians on site, see if the dimmer switch John B gave me would work, or if I need something else. So waiting for one of them to get back to me. I've seen a little 240v controller on ebay with a cooling fan, which may be handy, for around £11. LINK
> Which I think for the Wattage is overkill (4000w), but when the motor is under load will likely be pulling more current than the footswitch can handle hence overheating and letting the magic smoke out. The controller on ebay would also be very easy to set up and install within a box. I need to figure out which wires control the motor, then run some new cable from the motor, and attach an earth to it somewhere on the casing. I opened the motor casing up and there was four wires, two of these go to an isolator contacts, so that a small plastic piece is removed from the motor housing, with metal pins in, and presumably kills the flow of electricity to the foot pedal much like a blade fuse in your car. But have asked the electrician to figure out what Id need, and what would work.
> 
> ...



Hi Jon,

If you have a browse around the local scrap yard you might find a discarded shower pump !  Most of these motors are induction types and cannot be speed controlled.  However they are nearly all 1/2 Hp and 2880 rpm so you would need belts and pulleys.

Some of these shower pump motors are universal AC/DC brush motors and tend to run at 5K or more off load, and again are usually in the 1/2 Hp range, but they can be speed controlled quite easily.  Some I've found even have a speed control built into the connection box, so you can adjust the shower head water pressure.  All the way from dribble to stings like a swarm of bee's. DAMHIK.

That controller I gave you is rated at 800 watts or about 1.3 Hp, so it should easily cope with that tiny sewing machine motor.


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Thanks John,

So connect terminal C to the live from the plug, then connect either of the outlets (but not both) L1 or L2 to the live to motor, Then a neutral from the motor back to the plug, earthing the lathe and any countershaft setup I do. I take it that a no release switch could also be fitted along side to give quick cut off, of power if it was needed. 

I am not clued up on electrics at all, hence why I consulted one of the electricians at work. I can wire a plug and a twin socket outlet, but beyond that i'm a bit lost. 

These were some of the ebay items that I had looked at.
No volt release switch
PMW controller
Box for the electronics

Regards
Jon


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## modeng2000 (Sep 8, 2020)

Jon, this is what I used, 

The no-volt release switch is eBay (193540659522) 250v KJD17 £10.64
The speed control is Amazon Wingoneer AC220 4000w £6.99
The box is RS Stock number 174889 £6.25 plus vat.

I hope this is helpful, it may be possible to get a better price at other outlets. The box is really good quality and was the only one I found that would let me fit the parts as in the photo. It is possible to fit an IEC mains socket in the side of the box but I realised this too late so it is gromets for the cable entries.

For the switch use the two connections at the edge of the switch for live and neutral input and the two connections in the middle of the switch as the output to the speed controller etc. If you feed the middle conections you get a buzzer, dont ask how I know :-(

John


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## Richard Hed (Sep 8, 2020)

modeng2000 said:


> Hi Jon,
> I wondered if you would like to see the Wizard lathe I am just restoring. It is very similar to the Adept as you can see.
> I've been following your posts with interest and they have been helpful to me in deciding about layout, motor etc. I have been wondering if there are any benefits from having a countershaft. Perhaps the motor speed could be higher for a given spindle speed and so more torque for the machning.
> 
> ...


Whoa!  That's some lathe!  Do you know what year that is?


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## modeng2000 (Sep 8, 2020)

Richard,
I don't have a real idea save that it was advertised from 1946 on to the earlie 1950s.
There is some information here :- Wizard Micro lathe

John


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## BaronJ (Sep 8, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Thanks John,
> 
> So connect terminal C to the live from the plug, then connect either of the outlets (but not both) L1 or L2 to the live to motor, Then a neutral from the motor back to the plug, earthing the lathe and any counter shaft setup I do. I take it that a no release switch could also be fitted along side to give quick cut off, of power if it was needed.



Yes exactly that !  If you do decide to fit a no volt relay, it needs to be on the mains side of the speed controller. Though I personally wouldn't bother.



> I am not clued up on electrics at all, hence why I consulted one of the electricians at work. I can wire a plug and a twin socket outlet, but beyond that I'm a bit lost.
> 
> These were some of the ebay items that I had looked at.
> No volt release switch
> ...



Hi Jon,

Now I'm going to throw a spanner in the works !  Its your choice whether you catch it or not, no obligation.















I took a drive to my local scrap yard this morning and came back with this motor.  I've stripped it and serviced it, done a little repair and its in good condition bar a few very minor bits of rust.

Bear in mind that it is a shower pump motor !  It has a built in soft start, about a second and a half.  Its rated at 390 Watts with a 20 minute rating.  All the electrical connections are screw terminals under that cover.  Its 2880 rpm and has a 10 mm diameter shaft at each end.

It is not able to be speed controlled !  So you will have to make and use a counter shaft to drive the lathe.  I think that it will be ideal for the size of the Adept.

Its yours if you want it


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Thanks John, 
Can you provide external dimensions, as I was going to make a countershaft but I can't see how that motor would screw/bolt to a plate. Also need to do some maths now on pulley reduction diameters. 

Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 8, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Thanks John,
> Can you provide external dimensions, as I was going to make a counter shaft but I can't see how that motor would screw/bolt to a plate. Also need to do some maths now on pulley reduction diameters.
> 
> Regards
> Jon



Hi Jon,

I didn't actually measure the size, but roughly 5 inches cube plus the wiring box on top.  As far as mounting, I didn't bother to take them both.  If you look at the last picture the bottom of the motor has grooves on each side for clamp plates, they were just screwed with wood screws into the timber floor.  Easy enough to make with a bit of flat plate or bar.

I'll make a point of measuring it up tomorrow.  

The pumps on this one were both seized, particularly the hot side. The seals had leaked as you can see from the rust on the bottom. I'm keeping the two bronze impellers, but the pumps were plastic bodied on this one, they are usually brass or bronze.  

I normally return this material to the scrap yard.  Part of the deal for getting the motors.  He gets the valuable stuff back and I get to keep the motor if its any good.  Saves him the cost of taking them apart.


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Just sat with the lathe and talking Josh through what does what, and where not! To put your hands or fingers. I think I may have just figured why it wasn't cutting as good as I'd hoped. I had the topslide retracted, so there would have been movement there, also the tool clamp doesn't seem able to hold the tool secure, with it tightened I can still move it with pressure on the far end of the tool. So again movement, I don't want to tighten the toolpost bolt any more as I think I'd strip the thread, (I am a big Yorkshire lad after all). So any suggestions for increasing grip on the tool?
Regards
Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 8, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> So any suggestions for increasing grip on the tool?
> Regards
> Jon



As you haven't got a surface grinder or a T&C, you are into buying shares in a tin of Engineer's Blue and a scraper.

Go and add a bit of float glass from your local glacier- sorry-- glazier

This reference to th late David Lammas is still valid.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments to Richard especially. There seems to have been a battle about Wizard lathes- there was TWO and Lane of Houghton  le Spring lost and subsequent lathes were called 'Lanes'

My old neigbour who lived in Chester le Street had one. When I moved to more exootic things, I gave him my old Round Bed Drummond .  I had bought it for a vast £9
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The back history- if you believe Tom D Walshaw  was many castings were bought in from perhaps single casting firms and the so called 'manufacturers' did the machining and then assembly.  So a lot of bits were interchangeable
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rather like multiple firms in copying the one design- only the other way about LOL

Laughingly, there were few of the cheaper lathes which had more than 'fine milling'.
In fact, when I stripped a Myford ML7 for overhaul, the  Numbr 4 Shear was fine milled as  it 'floated' in th air- because the early models were from the 'Narrow Gide principle. Then Martin Cleeve or correctly Kenneth C Hart came along 

A bit more that isn't in the book!

Norman


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

I've got a nice bit of plate glass, 10mm thick. But only small, 60x300mm. The corner edges are broken off which is why it's been replaced as it was for a vacuum system on one of the production lines at work. The chipped edges means it starts to loose vacuum.

I was thinking to file the clamp underside so it's stepped, then with a triangle file cut grooves in it to increase the grip. Also a fag paper or two may also be an option.

Interesting to learn where "lanes" comes into it all with the wizard lathes. Didn't know they were built in Chester le street.

Jon


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

I need to get my ML4 put together and up and running, there seems to be quite a market for lathe tooling for these small lathes. I've seen another adept pop up on a fb group, needing jaws for a chuck, also on the same post, another person asking if anyone has a tailstock. I've probably got enough tooling to carve the bits from cast iron helping out and make a few bob along the way. 
Jon


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## goldstar31 (Sep 8, 2020)

So 'pin back your lug holes' and a slurry of wet sand and a circular motion and then ack and forwards.
Remove the detritus and see what is bright--- and ugh-- what is not.

Probably your hole down bolt has already 'pulled and raised and arris- which means that the mating surface doesn't mate. I DID an old Enox moons ago.  As you know, I'm hop;ess now with terrible ;one eye that isn't much good.

When I had a villa in the Balearics, I regularly scrapped the mouldy white Snowcem equivalent before repainting.
Now that was a job. 

I am beginning to think that I was made of stern stuff then.
No files, you'll only make things worse.  I had a razor sharp scraper and constantly re-honed it.

The sand treatment, incidentally, is to cut through the inevitable case hardening of the cast iron.

One aims to get 25 spots per square inch.


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

Ok Norm, 

Here s a few pics, you can see where the tool has been and where it's making contact. Also the toolpost bolt, seems upright. Maybe a good wet and dry as you say and a bit of blue see where would need scraping if any. 







The camera struggled to focus on that last pic so I hope it's picked it up, a slight lean on one side.

And set up as it was for machining, the feeler gauges been used to get on centre height.




Jon


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## JCSteam (Sep 8, 2020)

The paper has done the trick though, no movement with my finger now on the far end of the tool



Well using arm power alone to flick the chuck around, and the smallest of small cuts, I've got a finish that I think I'd be happy with, much less chatter, and a shiny finish, so tool isn't a problem. The paper has held firm too. 


The 1cm of cut brass furthest from the chuck was just now, the 1cm closest to the chuck was last night before Snap, Crackle, and POP.


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## BaronJ (Sep 9, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> The paper has done the trick though, no movement with my finger now on the far end of the tool
> View attachment 119194
> 
> 
> ...



Good morning Jon, Norman, Guys,

I know of at least one person that has made a "Norman Tool Post" for an Adept lathe.  I supplied him with my drawings, though they are sized for the Myford and would have to be scaled and sizes re calculated to suit the Adept.  Certainly it would be much better than messing about shimming to get the center height correct.






This is the drawing I made based on the original patent and other information derived from Myford and RR.


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi John,

Nice, so does the tool, clamp onto an increased dia toolpost? from the drawing i'm not sure how it connects for height adjustability.

Essentially its half scale id need for the adept. as the tooling i'm using is 1/4". 12mm is near as dammit 1/2".

Jon

Edit scaled to 1.5times smaller will need to measure centre height. But as I have a boat load of 20mm x 100mm mild steel kicking about in my garage, I can see quite a few toolholder been made.


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

Still not clear on how the toolpost clamped, I did some googling and came across a thread on another forum that yould commented on, and shown pics of your post. Seeing it off the post, inside the bore it all quickly became clear, and I think four of those would be a good starter set for him. R/H, L/H, round nose, and parting tool, to me are the most commonly used for plain turning operations. 

Hope you don't mind me posting the pics of your toolpost, as it may be useful reference in the future to someone else. 








Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 9, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Still not clear on how the toolpost clamped, I did some googling and came across a thread on another forum that yould commented on, and shown pics of your post. Seeing it off the post, inside the bore it all quickly became clear, and I think four of those would be a good starter set for him. R/H, L/H, round nose, and parting tool, to me are the most commonly used for plain turning operations.
> 
> Hope you don't mind me posting the pics of your toolpost, as it may be useful reference in the future to someone else.
> View attachment 119200
> ...



Hi Jon, Guys,

No not at all !  But I do have some suggestions.  First you only need one tool block.  I have two that are interchangeable, but that is only because I use one as a rear parting tool holder.  So far I've not had or seen a need for more than one.

Now using your drawing !  Whilst I know that you have scaled it, there are a couple of gotchas.  Looking at the bottom drawing,  You show an 8 mm square cutout for the tool, but when the tool block is resting on the surface of the top slide, the top of your 6 m square tool needs to be just below center height.  So the thickness of material below the tool is whatever is needed to achieve this. 

You say you have plenty of 20 mm thick material, I wouldn't bother trying to meet the 16.5 mm that you have scaled it to.  20 mm will be just fine.  Remember that you have a height adjusting screw to go through it as well.

Next the tool block needs to stay within the area of the base on the side where the tool is mounted.  I doesn't matter if the back edge overhangs.  The tool location should'nt overhang.  M4 cap screws are fine for 6 mm square tools.

The post wants to be as large as you can make it, but allow 6 mm between the back of the tool slot and the diameter of the post.  This will set the post diameter.  The post also needs to be square and flat on the bottom.  It must not rock, when fastened down it must be solid and not able to twist.

Now onto the split clamp !  The diameter of the split clamp pin has a bolt through it, so the hole for the split clamp pin needs to be far enough away from the post so that the diameter of the post doesn't intrude and catch the bolt through it.  So again I would stick with 12 or even 14 mm diameter.  I bored the post hole in mine using the lathe four jaw chuck and secured the pin with a screw at each end. 

The post hole and the split clamp are machined at the same time.

Right this motor !  Its basically a 5 inch cube with a 2 inch high terminal box on top. The spindle is a 65 mm center height and 10 mm diameter.  The fastening slots are 3 mm wide and 15 mm deep. The foot thickness is about 4.5 mm, but it varies slightly along its length.

I think that covers the motor details !


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi John,

Thanks for the pointers. I had worked out that the split clamps and holder should be bored as one item, and the scaled drawing as you suggest was just to see what size roughly it would work out as, there probably isn't very much material to the bottom of the tool if I'm honest. I've a 40mm x 200mm length of mild steel bar which should suffice for the post.
The reason for looking at more than one, was to try and simplify things for Josh, one holder out and one holder in, no adjustment ect to worry about in between. As with all of it I'm trying my best to think how to make it as easy to understand and learn on as possible. The tool holder is brilliant, as it would kinda side track the centre height issue for another year. I could just set it up for him and he change them as he needs.

The top of the compound measures 1.1/2" square, with the post exactly centred, so that's 3/4" from the edge. From top of compound to centre height is 5/16" so not a lot of material left for the 1/4" (6mm) tool.


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## BaronJ (Sep 9, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Thanks for the pointers. I had worked out that the split clamps and holder should be bored as one item, and the scaled drawing as you suggest was just to see what size roughly it would work out as, there probably isn't very much material to the bottom of the tool if I'm honest. I've a 40mm x 200mm length of mild steel bar which should suffice for the post.
> The reason for looking at more than one, was to try and simplify things for Josh, one holder out and one holder in, no adjustment ect to worry about in between. As with all of it I'm trying my best to think how to make it as easy to understand and learn on as possible. The tool holder is brilliant, as it would kinda side track the centre height issue for another year. I could just set it up for him and he change them as he needs.
> ...



Ooo, that not a lot to go at !  Give me chance to draw something up.


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

BaronJ said:


> Ooo, that not a lot to go at !  Give me chance to draw something up.


Yes it's quite small isn't it! Especially if the tool isnt allowed to overhang. 1/16" bottom, and the post itself can't be more than 1/2"-5/8" dia.


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

One other thing I've been thinking about with reference to the shower motor is surface speeds, and pulley sizes for reduction.
The following I've found as a guide for recommended cutting speeds, (SFPM).
Mild steel 100
Tool steel 70
Cast iron 60
Aluminium 250
Brass 300+

I've found the formula for converting to RPM which is (4xSFPM)/Dia. Now using this formula, the recommended speeds vary from 480rpm for CI, upto 2400+ for brass on a 1/2" dia.
For larger dia such as 1.5",as slow as 160rpm for CI, and 800rpm for brass.

Now I'm fairly certain that 2400+ would destroy the cast iron bearings on the spindle quite easily. So what range of speed should I be aiming at for the spindle. I'm inclined to think 500-1000rpm is where I need to be for good clean cuts. Which could be achieved by using a double pulley on the motor spindle to layshaft, then a reverse of the two pulleys on the spindle.

Never really looked at it before but I guess with a smaller lathe everything needs to be just right to make a good cut, including the speed that the tool is travelling across the surface of the work.
Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 9, 2020)

JCSteam said:


> Yes it's quite small isn't it! Especially if the tool isnt allowed to overhang. 1/16" bottom, and the post itself can't be more than 1/2"-5/8" dia.



Hi Jon,

Yes it is very small, hard to visualise !

Anyway here is a drawing






Based on the information that I have, the the post would be 14 mm, 16 mm maximum if you reduced the tool slot wall thickness by 1 mm.  Which only allows for an 8 mm securing stud diameter, indicated by the green circle.

I've used 12 mm diameter for the split clamp with an M4 screw through it. There is only 1 mm clearance there, so if you increased the post size to 16 mm you would have to move the clamp pin another mm further away.

The other thing is I don't know how much material is under the tool slot, so I've just shown it centered.


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## BaronJ (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi Jon,

Yes I'm inclined to agree that 1000 rpm plus could be a bit hard on the spindle, certainly good lubrication would be important.

I'm not happy about only a 1/16" under the tool, I would want at least three times that, preferably 1/4" inch.  You might need to consider just how much meat is in the top slide, and whether raising the headstock a little would work.  Of course you would need to raise the tailstock as well.


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Jon,
> 
> Yes I'm inclined to agree that 1000 rpm plus could be a bit hard on the spindle, certainly good lubrication would be important.
> 
> I'm not happy about only a 1/16" under the tool, I would want at least three times that, preferably 1/4" inch.  You might need to consider just how much meat is in the top slide, and whether raising the headstock a little would work.  Of course you would need to raise the tailstock as well.


Hi John,

Thanks for the drawing, you drew that quicker than I could in Fusion 360 lol.
The bed casting is solid one piece, no raising of headstock without major surgery.

Unfortunately there just isn't enough there in the top slide to machine that down, maybe 1/16" then you have 1/8"-3/16 of casting, so only 1/4" overall max before your into the bottom of the casting.
At least I know I'm looking at +1/16" to get on centre height. I did read an article in ME about a guy who had separated a feeler gauge set, and punched a hole in the end for them to be fed onto a key ring, using only certain gauges a full range of centre heights could be quite conveniently arranged, the side of each tool was then marked with a number with corresponded to the depth of feeler gauge stack needed. As one of my feeler gauges has been raided this will be dismantled and used as described above. Tip ex and a marker pen providing the indicative number. I'll make another clamp with a screw to the rear, meaning I can adjust the height of the rear of the clamp without packing. I'll keep the original one original.
I'll certainly pinch your, (sorry Van Norman's) idea on the toolpost for my ML4.

I really like the design. I was offered a quick change toolpost but at nearly 50mm square would drawf the little lathe.
Jon


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## JCSteam (Sep 9, 2020)

Ok, i took your dimensions John, and drew it up in fusion to see what it would look like, (i forgot the screw adjuster), however i think what you say about the thinness is correct. It looks too feeble, especially as it will be only 1/16" supporting those cutting forces. 
Follow the link and click play.




__





						Norman Toolpost for an Adept lathe | Search | Autodesk Knowledge Network
					






					autode.sk


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## John Antliff (Sep 9, 2020)

I notice from your photos that you are not ensuring that the top of the tool clamp is level i.e. parallel to the ways.   This is necessary for the nut to bear down onto the tool clamp with even pressure around the nut's circumference.  If this is not adhered to then the nut will press down on one side and introduce a bending force on the bolt which could, and probably will, encourage the tool clamp to move when pressure on the tool tip is present.  All clamps should be parallel to the clamped surface if movement is to be minimised - applies especially to milling machine setups.  To make the use of the tool clamp easier remove the cast leg and replace it with an adjusting bolt and nut of a similar size or slightly smaller to the main clamping bolt.  Where the leg was, drill and tap a hole perpendicular to the surface to take this adjusting bolt and a suitable spring can be added under the clamping plate to assist in the setting up.   I hope this is clear, I don't have a picture at hand but could supply one if you need it.


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## JCSteam (Sep 10, 2020)

That's contrary to what I've learned about clamping, whereby the clamping force is increased if there is a downward angle towards the part that is been clamp. If the tool clamp was parallel, there is a chance that it will only be clamping on the inner edge only and the tool could be spat out as it were. I do concede its a little excessive of an angle but this was what was at hand to set the tool up to prove all was good elsewhere. The fag papers worked well for grip on the tool, and the downward angle has increased the pressure on the tool, ie less surface area greater pressure exerted.

I would like to keep the existing clamp as it is, so I feel a little metal work coming on to make a new clamp with a hex bolt to the rear to adjust the rear height. Since the lathe appears too small for the quick change toolpost. 

Regards
Jon


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## BaronJ (Sep 10, 2020)

Hi Jon,  Guys,

Thank you for your Fusion link.

I agree the 1/16" under the tool is way too thin, though I like the rotating shim idea.

Myford supplied the Norman tool post with the ML4 lathes.
Later they went back to the same clamp style that you have on the Adept.  Probably a cost cutting measure.


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## JCSteam (Sep 10, 2020)

The other option is to make it and see, it seems thin, but considering that the adept isn't capable of 20thou cuts on material, the pressure if sharp tools are used, exerted on the bottom of the tool holder, is reduced significantly. It rather depends on ham fisted owners who tighten the M4 bolts down with a stilson grip lol. For Josh of course this wont be much of an issue. Plus the materials to do it are sat there. 

Regards
Jon


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## Apprentice707 (Sep 10, 2020)

Originally I had an Adept countershaft and motor for my Super Adept. I changed these for the sewing machine motor set up when I was posted to Germany during my RAF service. I left the motor and countershaft in storage in the UK, unfortunately, the warehouse burnt down in 1980, and along with many household items the Adept parts perished.

As I remember them the motor had a  double-ended armature and was a fifth horsepower. The countershaft was a simple pedestal design made of cast iron. The large pulley was about 6 inches diameter and the output pulley was the same as the headstock pulley. Simple but adequate, the belt was a round leather one with a single bent staple coupling. Hope this helps you to build up a picture.


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## JCSteam (Sep 15, 2020)

Hello,

Just wanted to say a thank you to John and Brian for their little gifts for the Adept, the oil bottles, and faceplate (respectively) got here safely, thank you. 

Just need to sort out picking up this little motor from you in a couple weeks John. 

Regards
Jon


----------

