# Electric car plant



## stevehuckss396 (Jul 19, 2022)

I was plugging along at work trying to get the factory zero GM plant finished and I realized I am working  less than a mile from where the anderson company made the Detroit electric automobile starting back in 1907. 115 years later here we are less than a mile away trying it again. The picture was takin out of the loading dock door. The old building on the right is the old anderson complex.


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## GreenTwin (Jul 19, 2022)

Plant start-ups can be a white knuckle experience.

You get to find out all the design and installation issues.

I recall many days of very heated meetings, and enough finger pointing to last a lifetime.

Good luck.

Pat J
.


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## rklopp (Jul 19, 2022)

Tesla just announced the 2-millionth car out of the Fremont plant. Pretty mind-boggling what they've done, and they've got huge plants in Texas, Berlin, and Shanghai.


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## lohring (Jul 20, 2022)

I've owned a Tesla Model 3 performance version for 4 years and 67,000 miles.  It's been the best car I've owned in 60 years of car ownership.


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## Shopgeezer (Jul 21, 2022)

I have a dozen or so small gas engines around the farm and I am very keen to replace them all with battery electric tools. I want one battery system though so have to wait a bit longer for yard and garden manufacturers to bring out a complete line of electric  outdoor equipment. A friend bought an electric chain saw and I was interested in how well it would work. Lots of power but even the extended duty (expensive) batteries did not last long enough to do any useful work. He ended up trading it back for a gas saw. As with all our electric ambitions, it is all about the battery.


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## bluejets (Jul 21, 2022)

Shopgeezer said:


> He ended up trading it back for a gas saw. As with all our electric ambitions, it is all about the battery.


Yes, it's not all glory glory when it comes to battery power.
One rarely hears the downside or in fact, the dust to dust effect of all the lithium waste that will appear in time to come.
We do get a good run out of 4 and 5Ah Dewalt originals in out power tools except for the vacuum cleaner.
It sucks the guts out of each of the above in no time flat.

Your friends chain saw may well be a cheapo and most battery powered gear uses a combination of 18650 cells in varying capacities.
There are stories all over about junk 18650 cells both in their internal makeup and in their highly overrated capacities.
As for a chainsaw, I'll have a good old 2 stroke smoke spewing engine anyday. 

Just saw images of exploding stars in our galaxy where the smoke and dust is thousands of light years across.
A little old 2 stroke outputs contribution is well down on any above effect.


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## swarf (Jul 21, 2022)

Not sure if true or not, but I've heard EV batteries last 8-10 yrs and are in the neighborhood of 10 to 20 grand to replace.


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## Steamchick (Jul 22, 2022)

Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years  won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5  years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
All the cells are recycled into "Domestic storage batteries" (to link to your solar panels), and other applications. Any shorted cells are re-cycled so the minerals (Lithium can be Highly Flammable - so do not open up a cell!) are recycled anyway. I think Lithium comes from sea water? So can be returned? But cheaper to recycle - apparently?
But I don't know how accurate my "education" has been on the subject. I just "plugged the batteries into the Nissan Leaf!" as a part of the test work.
The biggest risk to mechanics is Electric Shock. 380V DC will lock you solid and kill you in a minute or so. You can't scream with locked muscles. So don't risk it. It probably hurts like hell as well.
K2


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## ajoeiam (Jul 22, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
> But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
> Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
> You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years  won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5  years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
> ...


This post has me wondering about how to find a connection in my part of the world. 

I am working on modifying my current power service. 
Am on 240V 200 A single phase. 
Looking at adding a 240 to 480 V (single phase) transformer. 
Also adding a 480 single phase (better 2 phase) to three phase electronic converter. 

I want to be able to run 240 single phase, 230 and 460 V (at least 460 V) three phase motors and systems. 
Looking at a complex (tri-gen) power system and this is where a large storage battery (at reasonable cost) is a crucial component. 
I am wondering about filter any power I produce not from solar, ie from wind - - maybe, or biomass combustion - - quite likely, so that I have clean power. 

Please - - - - does your connection have knowledge of similar entities on this side of the water (hopefully mid continent too)?

TIA


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## Shopgeezer (Jul 22, 2022)

The friend’s chainsaw was a major brand and quite expensive. Supposedly intended for serious users. As disappointed as I was with its performance I can’t help think that we are in a major technology change and all the solutions are ahead of us. I can imagine all the complaining about smokey noisy gasoline powered buggies in their day. It took a lot of years to develop that technology. 

I can’t imagine being without my battery operated tools. Same for the pneumatic nailers although I am converting over to battery power there too. Far easier than hoisting an air compressor up a ladder. In small to moderate current draw applications lithium batteries are great. But we need a better battery technology for high draw applications like vehicles and that is on the way. Huge research and investment in battery technology right now. I suspect most of us will see it in our lifetimes, old and crotchety as we are. 

I can’t help but wonder where we would be now if the old Anderson company had continued making electric vehicles.


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## ofaf (Jul 22, 2022)

Several years ago, Lowe's came out with their own brand "Kobalt" lithium powered garden tools.  I bought a blower, hedge trimmer and string trimmer.  They all used the same battery.  I got two batteries so that I always had one charged up.  I'm still using these tools and they have worked flawlessly for at least six years.  They met every expectation I had.  I do not like storing gasoline and oil in my garage or dragging a power cord all over my yard.


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## ofaf (Jul 22, 2022)

ofaf said:


> Several years ago, Lowe's came out with their own brand "Kobalt" lithium powered garden tools.  I bought a blower, hedge trimmer and string trimmer.  They all used the same battery.  I got two batteries so that I always had one charged up.  I'm still using these tools and they have worked flawlessly for at least six years.  They met every expectation I had.  I do not like storing gasoline and oil in my garage or dragging a power cord all over my yard.


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## swarf (Jul 22, 2022)

GreenTwin said:


> Plant start-ups can be a white knuckle experience.
> 
> You get to find out all the design and installation issues.
> 
> ...


Just came off a quasi cogen project and you are 100% spot on, finger pointing, head games, will the turbine spin lol  etc


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## swarf (Jul 22, 2022)

My 40yr old Homelite 50cc two stroker chain saw still going strong. My 25 yr old 4hp tecumseh mower never misses a beat. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
All this electrical conversion because of "climate change"
I find (in my opinion) the idea of "man made" climate change a little more than misleading, especially when the earth has done more harm to itself over time than we ever have.


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## Shopgeezer (Jul 22, 2022)

Yeah but no excuse for us doing the harm. We know better. I mostly want to get rid of 10 oil changes and hauling gas all summer. I’ll take a solar cell and charging station any day. Way more efficient and I don’t get yelled at for gas stains in the car carpets.


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## swarf (Jul 22, 2022)

"Yeah but no excuse for us doing the harm" in your opinion.


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## Bentwings (Jul 22, 2022)

swarf said:


> I think you connected both ends correctly. Just look ATTHE 535 AD ERUPTIONS  they were the last really big deals excep for mt St. Helens . Man has don very little to the earth for climate change nor can it undo much.  The dems just don’t believe science because it doesn’t fit their agenda.  Hopefully many of us will vote them out and we can get on with real world things. I hope I live long enough to see this start to happen .
> 
> I better step off  my portable podium  so I don’t upset the moderators
> 
> ...


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## Apprentice707 (Jul 23, 2022)

I am very split on this matter, I have had a hybrid car (Lexus RX450h) for the past 8 years, it is now 11 years old and still performs well. The last service indicated that the batteries are still achieving 98% charge retention.  
Last week I went shopping for a new car for my wife to replace her 16-year-old Mercedes SLK 200, an excellent car that returns over 40 miles to the gallon. A small hybrid SUV at a reasonable trim standard costs over £40,000 and this brings into play the government's latest revenue earner the increased car tax for 5 years after purchase. Although the road tax may be £0 because of the additional tax it then becomes £330, this really doesn't encourage electric/hybrid ownership. On the matter of all-electric cars, I am concerned about the range of these vehicles and what happens when a 5-hour jam occurs on the M25 on a boiling hot day and the users have their a/c on (or heater in cold weather)? How do they recover scores of vehicles with flat batteries or even worse people with medical conditions? 

On the subject of Lithium, I thought I would have a punt on some Lithium mine shares, these were for a Canadian company mining in Arizona so I bought some, they did well for a while until Obama took the reins in the USA and condemned the mining of Lithium, the shares fell overnight so once again the public end up with the bill.

Incidentally, the solar panels on my UK home work well and are as advertised, but they are only economical because I get the larger FIT that was prevalent 10 years ago. I don't think they are as good now unless the system has a rechargeable battery bank (Costs £5000 +)

What are other members' thoughts on this subject?


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## terryd (Jul 23, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Just been looking at "hybrid" replacement batteries... A guy from a company that refurbishes these, and larger traction batteries for Battery only cars, says that it is all down to duty cycle. A Taxi, (24 hour town use) will probably need a hybrid battery replacing after 5 years, for £2~300. A Nissan Leaf, £3000-ish, A Tesla (Huge money!).
> But a domestic user, commuting, etc. so the car is parked for 23 or 24 hours a day, will get between 8 and 12 years use, before the warning lights say "Use-by-date exceeded". But the battery may be "re-furbished" for less than that. And the industry is getting more recycled batteries for second use anyway, so prices are coming down year on year.
> Suppose you do 10,000miles per year, saving 10p per mile on "liquid fuel" by using electricity from the grid.
> You have saved £1000 per year, = £10,000 in 10 years, so £3000 for a replacement battery after 10 years  won't worry many customers who do not keep cars for more than 5 years from new. But some are replacing after 3~5  years for "latest technology and more range"... so I read somewhere.
> ...


Hi,
Regarding use of batteries to link to solar panels for power storage for when the sun don't shine.  I have solar panels and considerd the advantage when a friend explained that he had a 5kW battery installed in his system.  last time I looked 7kW was about the maximum available - things may be different now - then I looked at the costs involved v rewards.  My friends 5kW battery cost around £5000 to install and will last around 8 years.

My electricity per kW hr cost me around 31pence (A high cost as there is no service charge with my supplier on top of energy price, but it was less than 20p before the latest price hike!) so to fill my supposed battery costs £1.55p per day i.e. £565 or so per year ('cost' = amount of electricity saved per day when paels not charging assuming I use the full capacity per day) and at that rate it would take me 8.8 years to cover costs of battery and insulation not such a good investment as the battery fails in 8 years and we know that battery function detriorates as the y get older so it would probably take much longer to recover costs - not such a good bargain then.  Another problem is that during the winter months in the English Midlands when I need more storage due to cold and dark days/nights, I find that I only charge at around 1 - 4 kWhr for several weeks so my battery will never get fully charged thus theoretically taking much longer to pay back the original investment perhaps a 1/3rd again so possible 11  -12 years to recoup my costs.

There is of course another downside.  As an incentive to install panel our goverment invented the Feed in Tariff (FIT) which an energy company pays direct to me for every kW I feed into the electricity grid and I have a special meter for that.  I had the system installed when the tariff was at it's height just before it started reducing and was paid 44.1p for every unit (kW hr) I fed into the grid.  however they assume that _*every *_unit generated goes ito the grid even when we use it as the separation of the two i.e domestic use and grid supply is expensive and difficult. with inflation at perhaps 11% this year my FIT will increase to around 68p per unit so I'm quids in but in future but they may seperate domestic and grid feed  and I will lose some income on my investment, but also I lose the 5kW I store at a cost of £1.55p but lose the approx £4.00 FIT of those units.  Not a good bargain.  

So you can see why I opted not to invest in battery technology at the moment.  By the way, my panels paid for themselves within 8 years and I have the increasing income from them for the next 18 years (25 year contract)

TerryD


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## Robsmith (Jul 23, 2022)

bluejets said:


> Yes, it's not all glory glory when it comes to battery power.
> One rarely hears the downside or in fact, the dust to dust effect of all the lithium waste that will appear in time to come.
> We do get a good run out of 4 and 5Ah Dewalt originals in out power tools except for the vacuum cleaner.
> It sucks the guts out of each of the above in no time flat.
> ...


The good ol lithium battery hates the cold.  My vacuum goes flat in minutes unless I sit it in the sun for 20 minutes then recharge it (from supposedly full) After15 minutes of more charging, the vacuum will run for 30 minutes.


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## Jules (Jul 23, 2022)

swarf said:


> My 40yr old Homelite 50cc two stroker chain saw still going strong. My 25 yr old 4hp tecumseh mower never misses a beat. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
> All this electrical conversion because of "climate change"
> I find (in my opinion) the idea of "man made" climate change a little more than misleading, especially when the earth has done more harm to itself over time than we ever have.


Everyone can have an opinion but I find it hard to believe any intelligent human, finds it hard to believe that burning millions of tons of fossil fuels, wouldn’t warm up the planet.
Most of the energy from the gas you put into your engines, is turned into heat.
The rise in temperature since the industrial revolution is far faster than normal climatic change.
This heat would normally escape but the CO2 prevents it.


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## Robsmith (Jul 23, 2022)

Jules said:


> Everyone can have an opinion but I find it hard to believe any intelligent human, finds it hard to believe that burning millions of tons of fossil fuels, wouldn’t warm up the planet.
> Most of the energy from the gas you put into your engines, is turned into heat.
> The rise in temperature since the industrial revolution is far faster than normal climatic change.
> This heat would normally escape but the CO2 prevents it.


What about Volcanoes.  There's heaps of them going off around the world at the moment.  Nobody counts them into the big picture.


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## terryd (Jul 23, 2022)

bluejets said:


> Just saw images of exploding stars in our galaxy where the smoke and dust is thousands of light years across.
> A little old 2 stroke outputs contribution is well down on any above effect.


Hi bluejets.

Those exploding stars, even while in our galaxy are still billions upon billions of kilometres (one lightyear is about 5.8 trillion miles - 9.46 trillion km and our nearest star, Alph Centauri is 4 light years distant) away from our atmosphere whereas greenhouse gases and dust from our and natural activity is 50 -60 km above your head.  Imagine a town 50km  (30+ miles) away and that is how close the greenhouse layer is to you.

A Swedish  scientist - Svante Arrhenius - forecast greenhouse gas heating in 1896 saying that the effects off CO2 being poured into the atmosphere by industry would make the world uninhabitable for humans in 10,000 years, but since then those gases have increased and the amount of CO2 added in 2020 was over 320 billion tonnes, yes billions, and increasing, and there are other greenhouse gases worse that CO2 which are also increasing due to our activities so yes, your, and hundreds of millions of other 'little old two strokes' worldwide are indeed adding to the problem.  Below is an extrac from teh 1902 Selma Times:








And again from a 1912 US journal:







Terry D


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## terryd (Jul 23, 2022)

Robsmith said:


> What about Volcanoes.  There's heaps of them going off around the world at the moment.  Nobody counts them into the big picture.


Vulcanologists and scientists have ideed been studying this effect for many years and the conclusion accross teh scientific community is that they have a negligible effect on global worming.  In fact the sulpuur the emit acutally ha a cooling effect.  To Quote:

"Carbon dioxide (CO2) has built up in the atmosphere over the last 200 years from human activities, not from volcanoes. According to the *Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)*, “the emissions of CO2 from volcanic eruptions are at least 100 times smaller than anthropogenic [human-caused] emissions, and inconsequential for climate on century time scales."

And:

"Another way to look at this is to consider how often a large volcanic eruption would need to occur in order to match human emissions. Consider, for example, the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo in 1991, which was one of the three largest volcanic eruptions of the 20th century. Scientists estimate that Pinatubo’s eruption released about 50 million tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in 9 hours. To match human emissions over a year, the planet would have to experience a volcanic eruption like Mt. Pinatubo’s _every 12.5 hours!"

Furthermore volcan activity has been around since the earth began and is settling down slowly.and here is a chart of CO2 levels:




_

Sure there were ups and downs, but not to the scale of the last couple of hundred years.

Al refereced from here - Are Volcanoes Causing Global Warming?


Needs action

TDx


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## Rocket Man (Jul 23, 2022)

I put a fork lift electric motor on a go-kart once push the switch is was instant full power, it would spin the tires until it picked up speed to 30 mph.  Going down the street at 30 mph it was very quiet sounding.  It only had 2 speeds, zero and 30.  LOL.   It was FUN.


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## Bentwings (Jul 23, 2022)

Apprentice707 said:


> I am very split on this matter, I have had a hybrid car (Lexus RX450h) for the past 8 years, it is now 11 years old and still performs well. The last service indicated that the batteries are still achieving 98% charge retention.
> Last week I went shopping for a new car for my wife to replace her 16-year-old Mercedes SLK 200, an excellent car that returns over 40 miles to the gallon. A small hybrid SUV at a reasonable trim standard costs over £40,000 and this brings into play the government's latest revenue earner the increased car tax for 5 years after purchase. Although the road tax may be £0 because of the additional tax it then becomes £330, this really doesn't encourage electric/hybrid ownership. On the matter of all-electric cars, I am concerned about the range of these vehicles and what happens when a 5-hour jam occurs on the M25 on a boiling hot day and the users have their a/c on (or heater in cold weather)? How do they recover scores of vehicles with flat batteries or even worse people with medical conditions?
> 
> On the subject of Lithium, I thought I would have a punt on some Lithium mine shares, these were for a Canadian company mining in Arizona so I bought some, they did well for a while until Obama took the reins in the USA and condemned the mining of Lithium, the shares fell overnight so once again the public end up with the bill.
> ...


I’m not a green new deal person at all science does not agree. Look at yhe 535AD eruptions. They were the biggest climate things since dinosaurs.  The earth has healed itself from this completely we are doing little or nothing to affect climate the latest gear waves are created by solar storms predicted years ago   All the electric car thing does is create local
Messes recycling mining with child labor and other local things     Dinosaurs gave us a gift let’s use it . If clean is the word neuclear energy is thevonlyvwavyongo . As for taxes our idiotic politicians can be thanked for that we have one very powerful weapon for that……. Our votes get then the h….. out of office permanently.


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## Bentwings (Jul 23, 2022)

terryd said:


> Vulcanologists and scientists have ideed been studying this effect for many years and the conclusion accross teh scientific community is that they have a negligible effect on global worming.  In fact the sulpuur the emit acutally ha a cooling effect.  To Quote:
> Nice reply why can’t our stupid politicians see this . They are supposed to be highly educated . They must have skipped physics and math .
> 
> I have a 40 yr old classic car that gets 30 mpg starts every day heat and Sv on demand never more than 10 minutes at the  gas pump  license is 50$ Insurance is 300$ per year  for agreed value not pro rated  rated. If it’s totaled I get the agreed value something on the order of twice what I paid for it goes up every year . An appreciating asset.
> ...





Bentwings said:


> I’m not a green new deal person at all science does not agree. Look at yhe 535AD eruptions. They were the biggest climate things since dinosaurs.  The earth has healed itself from this completely we are doing little or nothing to affect climate the latest gear waves are created by solar storms predicted years ago   All the electric car thing does is create local
> Messes recycling mining with child labor and other local things     Dinosaurs gave us a gift let’s use it . If clean is the word neuclear energy is thevonlyvwavyongo . As for taxes our idiotic politicians can be thanked for that we have one very powerful weapon for that……. Our votes get then the h….. out of office permanently.


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## Shopgeezer (Jul 23, 2022)

I was a long time climate skeptic and trotted out all the arguments about volcanoes and solar cycles and all the other arguments about nature causing the warming we see. And it does. It’s just that human effects are being piled up on top of that. CO2 is a natural product and cycles in relative balance in the atmosphere. The problem is that we are digging up coal and oil and gas and pouring thousands of tons of fossilized carbon into the atmosphere that overwhelms the natural cycle. The amount of carbon we are releasing is scary. What is really frightening is the amount we are going to release. India is building hundreds of new coal plants and has no plans to reduce carbon emissions. Same with China.  Despite the Paris agreements the world output of human sourced carbon is increasing at an astounding rate. Even a dyed in the wool old skeptic like me has to admit that this is not going to end well.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 23, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I’m not a green new deal person at all science does not agree. Look at yhe 535AD eruptions. They were the biggest climate things since dinosaurs.  The earth has healed itself from this completely we are doing little or nothing to affect climate the latest gear waves are created by solar storms predicted years ago   All the electric car thing does is create local
> Messes recycling mining with child labor and other local things     Dinosaurs gave us a gift let’s use it . If clean is the word neuclear energy is thevonlyvwavyongo . As for taxes our idiotic politicians can be thanked for that we have one very powerful weapon for that……. Our votes get then the h….. out of office permanently.


NO, no, no.  The way to go is to use GEO!  Geo is cheap and powerful.  the reason so many people thimpfk "nuke" is because the poweers that be want nukes simply for the reason that they cost LOTS MORE to build.  they are over price by aobut 100 times.  I Know,  I live in the soviet of Washington where the nuke industry cheated, lied, cheated, defrauded and cheated more on they building cost.  Wshen the nukes were priced 40 years ago at 5 billionUS$, they ran the price up to 15B by having the men slow down the work, buying supplies from the highest bidders, hiring more men but making sure no more work was done--yhou thimpfk this is a jhoke?  You want to know why they did this, of course.  They did this because the contracts are all cost + 15%!  They also pay their people far more than normal for the same kind of work that is NOT in the nuke industry.  

Geo is cheap to build, stable, and not in the least dangerous.  The liars will explain to you many reasons why it is not feasible, however, never forget "cost plus".


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## Bentwings (Jul 24, 2022)

Shopgeezer said:


> I was a long time climate skeptic and trotted out all the arguments about volcanoes and solar cycles and all the other arguments about nature causing the warming we see. And it does. It’s just that human effects are being piled up on top of that. CO2 is a natural product and cycles in relative balance in the atmosphere. The problem is that we are digging up coal and oil and gas and pouring thousands of tons of fossilized carbon into the atmosphere that overwhelms the natural cycle. The amount of carbon we are releasing is scary. What is really frightening is the amount we are going to release. India is building hundreds of new coal plants and has no plans to reduce carbon emissions. Same with China.  Despite the Paris agreements the world output of human sourced carbon is increasing at an astounding rate. Even a dyed in the wool old skeptic like me has to admit that this is not going to end well.





bluejets said:


> Yes, it's not all glory glory when it comes to battery power.
> One rarely hears the downside or in fact, the dust to dust effect of all the lithium waste that will appear in time to come.
> We do get a good run out of 4 and 5Ah Dewalt originals in out power tools except for the vacuum cleaner.
> It sucks the guts out of each of the above in no time flat.
> ...



Nice ost at lest a few are thinking  of what is really going on. Yes E vehicles are very expensive 
Untill Biden and his entire staff getvelictrified then biden has a huge home in delegate yet ionot one solar panel or wind mill.  Since he is so green how come he doesn’t have an electric limo and his security cars the mighty suburban s need to be electrified  then we can talk but only with science atvtge table   This latest climate disaster is not that at all science predicted this years ago that there would be big solar storms that would affect us .  All he wants us to keep us poor while they print more money and fuel the high cost of living  if he wants green he has to show he cares , show some green grass he takes care of  he is like some idiot that just lets his dog run pooping in other peoples yards .   Looking at his great record over 50 years of politics , not one thing he has been involved with has been successful . It’s been on Fox News numerous times. Other news forget about them .    The administration forgets that electric energy has to come from somewhere …. Yep power plants , guess what fuel they burn fossil fuels  natural gas oil and coal. China is just starting about 150 new coal plants using Mongolia coal , some of the dirtiest coal on the planet that will negate everything done in this country . Our money wasted .  
Here is a good one the grocery store I go to put in 20 EV charging stations . Guess what. They all have heavy bags over them with a sign NOT IN SERVICE.   My sons wife works at another grocery store they have charging stations . She said it costs over 10  times the local cost per KWHOUR  to use them . Few get used. 


So when operating your EV you need to look at cost per mile not mpg as normal  you can or should do this anyway .  My big one ton diesel dualy 

 Has 450 K on it over the time I drove it it was the least cost per mile including the purchase loan of any car or truck I ever had going back to 1960.    At one point I had a spread sheet of costs for each car I ever had so I could look at bottom line where I was at in personal transportation costs .    I’ve seen a couple pictures of EV with portable gas generators in either back seat or trunk.   That shows what people think about these things.  


We were talking about job market at car breakfast one day  way back when I was starting engineering school coming from the machine shop I saw the cnc machine as the future and automation as the new engineering direction I followed this through the first electronic drafting then 3D modeling and into paperless manufacturing . I did lots of automation too . Now the job market is in for a second revolution. More automation robotic assembly . So who is goingvto design this and main twin this .  Forward thinking education will help kids learn this stuff it’s not just guys women can design and work in the shop really old timers remember Rosie the riveter.   So  just yesterday I heard on news that the job market was in for big changes as we go through the rediculous  recession jobs are disappearing already as companies cut back. The jobs created vs jobs lost number is going to really change .


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## Shopgeezer (Jul 24, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> NO, no, no.  The way to go is to use GEO!  Geo is cheap and powerful.  the reason so many people thimpfk "nuke" is because the poweers that be want nukes simply for the reason that they cost LOTS MORE to build.  they are over price by aobut 100 times.  I Know,  I live in the soviet of Washington where the nuke industry cheated, lied, cheated, defrauded and cheated more on they building cost.  Wshen the nukes were priced 40 years ago at 5 billionUS$, they ran the price up to 15B by having the men slow down the work, buying supplies from the highest bidders, hiring more men but making sure no more work was done--yhou thimpfk this is a jhoke?  You want to know why they did this, of course.  They did this because the contracts are all cost + 15%!  They also pay their people far more than normal for the same kind of work that is NOT in the nuke industry.
> 
> Geo is cheap to build, stable, and not in the least dangerous.  The liars will explain to you many reasons why it is not feasible, however, never forget "cost plus".


 Well that isn't quite true. Have a look at this:


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## L98fiero (Jul 24, 2022)

Shopgeezer said:


> I was a long time climate skeptic and trotted out all the arguments about volcanoes and solar cycles and all the other arguments about nature causing the warming we see. And it does. It’s just that human effects are being piled up on top of that. CO2 is a natural product and cycles in relative balance in the atmosphere. The problem is that we are digging up coal and oil and gas and pouring thousands of tons of fossilized carbon into the atmosphere that overwhelms the natural cycle. The amount of carbon we are releasing is scary. What is really frightening is the amount we are going to release. India is building hundreds of new coal plants and has no plans to reduce carbon emissions. Same with China.  Despite the Paris agreements the world output of human sourced carbon is increasing at an astounding rate. Even a dyed in the wool old skeptic like me has to admit that this is not going to end well.


An additional problem is we are also getting into positive feedback loops with arctic permafrost warming that releases huge amounts of methane which is multiples worse than CO2


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## swarf (Jul 25, 2022)

Jules said:


> Everyone can have an opinion but I find it hard to believe any intelligent human, finds it hard to believe that burning millions of tons of fossil fuels, wouldn’t warm up the planet.
> Most of the energy from the gas you put into your engines, is turned into heat.
> The rise in temperature since the industrial revolution is far faster than normal climatic change.
> This heat would normally escape but the CO2 prevents i
> ...


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## swarf (Jul 25, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> I put a fork lift electric motor on a go-kart once push the switch is was instant full power, it would spin the tires until it picked up speed to 30 mph.  Going down the street at 30 mph it was very quiet sounding.  It only had 2 speeds, zero and 30.  LOL.   It was FUN.


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## Steamchick (Jul 25, 2022)

Safe places for Nuclear power are 1 - The sun, 2 - the core of the Earth. Everywhere else has to be risk managed  by the "Mankind" that devised the thing.
OZONE layer depletion is real. CO2 warming is real, and CFCs Methane pollution, (including people and cattle emissions) also real and measurable. So if we were a non-fossil fuel burning species that numbered 1 billion instead of 8 billion, we would be OK. But to sustain 8 billion souls takes the technology we have developed... or we stop it now and kill 7 of 8 people. (starting with everyone over 40? - to go back to pre-industrial norms?). It is a global problem.... not something we can resolve in an Engineering and Machining forum?
K2


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## awake (Jul 25, 2022)

Clearly there are sharply different opinions on this topic. Those opinions tend to bleed over into political discussions. I think the latter is not allowed by the forum rules - ? If so, may I respectfully request that this thread be closed?


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## Steamchick (Jul 25, 2022)

I agree Andy.
K2


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## ofaf (Jul 25, 2022)

Amen!


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## ajoeiam (Jul 26, 2022)

Maybe the ancillary branches could be shut off - - - I had asked about connecting to some more local recycled battery (large automotive size) location but haven't seen any information on such - - - - or is that question also 'political'?


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## terryd (Jul 26, 2022)

awake said:


> Clearly there are sharply different opinions on this topic. Those opinions tend to bleed over into political discussions. I think the latter is not allowed by the forum rules - ? If so, may I respectfully request that this thread be closed?


Hi,

I don't necessarily think that an interesting thread should be closed, however I do agree about the politics.  Rather than close the thread perhaps the moderators could delete some of the more overtly political diatribe if they have the ability so to do, if not I agree with you about closure more's the pity.

TerryD


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## awake (Jul 26, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Maybe the ancillary branches could be shut off - - - I had asked about connecting to some more local recycled battery (large automotive size) location but haven't seen any information on such - - - - or is that question also 'political'?


Not political at all in my opinion. I'm with the others that suggest a moderator deleting the political posts and letting the rest continue. Alternately, killing this thread and starting a new one ...


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 26, 2022)

Yeah I kinda saw this ad an opportunity to discuss automotive history and maybe get some folks interested in some of the antique engines of the teens, twenty, and thirty. Swing and a miss!


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## awake (Jul 26, 2022)

Not your fault, Steve, and I wouldn't suggest that anyone is "at fault" per se - sometimes a thread starts heading in a political direction, just with an off-hand comment, but once started it can be difficult to get back on track.

And of course, I am just one voice; others may disagree about what is appropriate here ...


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## Rocket Man (Jul 26, 2022)

I want to buy a garden PLANT that will grow an ELECTRIC CAR..


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## william_b_noble (Jul 26, 2022)

an interesting discussion is whether it is more efficient environmentally to use a device (like the lawnmower up thread) that pollutes more than a new one but is already built (and therefore has no marginal cost of construction) versus replacing with new.  it is more than a dollars argument if you are willing to consider externalized costs, such as the impact on the air, e.g. if your lawnmore pollutes the air, that affects your neighbor (me) and that is a cost which you don't pay but I might (through increased doctor bills or a shorter life).  Our "free market" system is not really free, but it's sort of free, and the key defficiency in that is what was first referred to as "the tragedy of the commons". The concept originated in an essay written in 1833 by the British economist William Forster Lloyd, and it is not getting any less tragic in these days.  The basic idea is that if something belongs to everyone, it belongs to no one and it therfore is treated as having no value, with signigicant adverse effects.  We have seen this throughout history, it is documented in the Old testament (read about the cedars of Lebanon), it is seen on Easter Island, in the extinction of species and in our problems with pollution and climate change.   So, if you take your old tool and you factor in externalized costs, it may or may not be benneficial to change it.  If you fire up the old hit and miss engine for 10 minutes every few months to saw a piece of wood, the externalized costs are minimal.  If you run it 24X7 powering a generator, not so much.


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## william_b_noble (Jul 27, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> I want to buy a garden PLANT that will grow an ELECTRIC CAR..


to riff on that interesting concept, start with Hieronemous Bosch's Tryptich,  garden of earthly delights- add seed money since trees grow from seeds, add blood and toil to represent the labor, the painting represents clearly the marketplace, and the tryptich is painted on wood, so there's your tree.  Add some sparks from a nearby tesla coil and the metaphor is complete.  and it was all painted in the late 15th to early 16th century.  A wonderful piece that you can see in the Prado, it's small but powerful.  sometimes it is amazing to look back and wonder, isn't it?


----------



## Bentwings (Jul 30, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi,I could go along with that. . As within my own family opinions vary and have a way of getting heated.
> 
> This being a highly technical group I YHINK real fact  finding might emerge.  Most of us have come through science classes in schools so when we see the real facts vs hearsay we can say , you know I was incorrect about that   I’m following facts, that’s reality thinking not guessing or wishful thinking . We all have seen the lies and just plain dumb thinking politicians  in action . I’m sure there are plenty of use who have been involved with research and development. Here we see tests very well document then retests . A couple times maybe more before a solid conclusion can be made.  It doesn’t take long to see our current situation is not based on factual science.  It just what someone wants to happen . Well we know that when we can see multiple tests  that disprove wishful  thinking. . Reasonable people can make the correct choice.  Contrary to “ wishful thinking” American people are not dumb or stupid. We all can do even simple math  things are just not adding up, subtracting out, multiplying, or dividing.  Now we all need to make obvious choices.  . Do we be like lemmings and go over the cliff and into the ocean or do we turn around and go for safety.
> 
> ...





terryd said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't necessarily think that an interesting thread should be closed, however I do agree about the politics.  Rather than close the thread perhaps the moderators could delete some of the more overtly political diatribe if they have the ability so to do, if not I agree with you about closure more's the pity.
> 
> TerryD


----------



## Bentwings (Jul 30, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> an interesting discussion is whether it is more efficient environmentally to use a device (like the lawnmower up thread) that pollutes more than a new one but is already built (and therefore has no marginal cost of construction) versus replacing with new.  it is more
> 
> than a dollars argument if you are
> 
> willing to consider externalized costs, such as the impact on the air, e.g. if your lawnmore pollutes the air, that affects your neighbor (me) and that is a cost which you don't pay but I might (through increased doctor bills or a shorter life).  Our "free market" system is not really free, but it's sort of free, and the key defficiency in that is what was first referred to as "the tragedy of the commons". The concept originated in an essay written in 1833 by the British economist William Forster Lloyd, and it is not getting any less tragic in these days.  The basic idea is that if something belongs to everyone, it belongs to no one and it therfore is treated as having no value, with signigicant adverse effects.  We have seen this throughout history, it is documented in the Old testament (read about the cedars of Lebanon), it is seen on Easter Island, in the extinction of species and in our problems with pollution and climate change.   So, if you take your old tool and you factor in externalized costs, it may or may not be benneficial to change it.  If you fire up the old hit and miss engine for 10 minutes every few months to saw a piece of wood, the externalized costs are minimal.  If you run it 24X7 powering a generator, not so much.



I’m having this very argument with my son who has landscaping  mowing service.  

He just bought 5 new mowers.    So I said ok so a big area takes,  what? 5 gallons of gas per mower so $5x5 equals $25 gas cost. And each mower runs say 5 hours a property.   So what the it takes one hour of weed trimming . Te stroke are not very efficient  so figure one gallon of mix fuel each 

Now a law comes along and says no more gasoline portable equipment allowed. So 5 brand new 10k$ mowers have to be taken out and replaced with 5 new electric ones . Based on electric car prices  figure 50 grand each . Now we all know electric cars take charge time so now the shop needs 5 new high power charging station so the mower can be ready the next day  these can cost 5 grand each . 

Now we go out in the morning to start the day.  We mow the first property but only get had way through and the more is dead, battery runs down . Do we load up and head for some EV charging station  duuuuuh . It’s an hour drive  then takes nearly an hour to charge . This isn’t going to work out. So what’s the alternative? Finish mowing with another mower? Fine now we have used two mowers to one property we have 5?to do today  . Looking atvthe trailer we see. Oh no. Not enough mowers we have to split up so we can get a couple recharged this takes one guy of the crew to go to the  the charging station then wait around for at least a couple mowers to be charged . We haven’t done weed trimming yet. The electric trimmers run less than an hour on a battery . Fear not we have at least 20 batteries on the trailer for these . Except the truck and trailer  at some charging station. But planning ahead we have a pile of trimmer batteries on the sidewalk .   You can quickly see the result.  We did add one job . Not high paying barely above min wage  as no real skill involved . 
A relatively simple operation has now become a monumental task    One solution offered.  Local power equipment company has just added high efficiency generator . Runs on natural gas available at special gas station. It cost nearly double what gasoline cost. But the station does not have EV power plug ins .   The local truck dealer offers a solution. He has a new truck  with built in extra battery in the bed for portable charging .  He will make a deal  give 50 % credit for new old truck on the special. 150 grand  less  50 grand for old new truck .  Now we can just plug mowers in during the day more or less on the job . So we offer the new guy acraisevifvhecwill manage the charging station and keep the new truck filled with nat gas .   I haven keptvtracknofcwhstvelectric power costs but I just saw a comparison of a gas truck towing big Vs EV TRUCK PULLING IDENTICAL TRAILER  gas tuck made the trip non stop . EV had to make a charging stop . Cost of gas was almost a wash vs cost of on the road charging . KW hours is very expensive apparently . 

It easy to see the tangle being caused here. Wishful thinking vs practicality we haven’t even thought of what happens when these trucks an monster batteries need to be recycled, nor what energy cost to produce them in the first place. There have been countless studies presented on YouTube in these regards    Our infamous politicians simply don’t look this far before opening mouth and using the wrong opening to expel waste. 

Byron


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## Bentwings (Jul 30, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I’m having this very argument with my son who has landscaping  mowing service.
> 
> He just bought 5 new mowers.    So I said ok so a big area takes,  what? 5 gallons of gas per mower so $5x5 equals $25 gas cost. And each mower runs say 5 hours a property.   So what the it takes one hour of weed trimming . Te stroke are not very efficient  so figure one gallon of mix fuel each
> 
> ...


 I’m sorry I spent half an hour editing this post . What ever this spell check and context fixer is or does is just a mess . I wish I could just turn it off. Idvonlybhavevtobfix thingsvonce instead of constantly editing . It’s hard enough with vision issue but this is really bad . I hope y’al can wade through this . I spend more time fixing and editing than creating .


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## Steamchick (Jul 31, 2022)

So I worked in a car plant where we made a car called a Leaf.... Everyone who drove it loved it, very few had worries about recharging or getting stranded, because they used some common sense to use it for relatively short journeys, like 70 mile round trips (a guy with a 1 hour commute) then recharge overnight. But I would not have one, as my "town-car" struggles to do just over 300 miles on a tank of petrol,  but I regularly go on weekend trips of nearer 400 miles.... so need to refuel to get home. The leaf would not get me the full trip out or back, in winter, with all the heater, lights wipers etc. necessary.
But there is a place of battery stuff.... We have both battery and propane powered fork-trucks at work for different applications.
C'est la Guerre?
K2


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 31, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> We have both battery and propane powered fork-trucks at work for different applications.
> C'est la Guerre?
> K2



In the Chrysler Jefferson plant the fork trucks have all been fitted with hydrogen fuel cells. After 8 weeks the construction  was complete and I was sent back to factory zero. Having left before production resumed I never got the chance to see how they perform.


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## WisJim (Aug 1, 2022)

We've been driving electric cars for 15 years or more, and are currently driving a 2017 Nissan Leaf.  We have never had a problem charging as we charge at home, and my bookkeeper wife says we save about $150 a month compared to our previous gas powered car which got over 40 mpg (Chevy Metro).  We have enough sense to borrow or rent another car if we have to drive farther than the Leaf can reasonably travel.


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## justintime (Aug 2, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Nice ost at lest a few are thinking  of what is really going on. Yes E vehicles are very expensive
> Untill Biden and his entire staff getvelictrified then biden has a huge home in delegate yet ionot one solar panel or wind mill.  Since he is so green how come he doesn’t have an electric limo and his security cars the mighty suburban s need to be electrified  then we can talk but only with science atvtge table   This latest climate disaster is not that at all science predicted this years ago that there would be big solar storms that would affect us .  All he wants us to keep us poor while they print more money and fuel the high cost of living  if he wants green he has to show he cares , show some green grass he takes care of  he is like some idiot that just lets his dog run pooping in other peoples yards .   Looking at his great record over 50 years of politics , not one thing he has been involved with has been successful . It’s been on Fox News numerous times. Other news forget about them .    The administration forgets that electric energy has to come from somewhere …. Yep power plants , guess what fuel they burn fossil fuels  natural gas oil and coal. China is just starting about 150 new coal plants using Mongolia coal , some of the dirtiest coal on the planet that will negate everything done in this country . Our money wasted .
> Here is a good one the grocery store I go to put in 20 EV charging stations . Guess what. They all have heavy bags over them with a sign NOT IN SERVICE.   My sons wife works at another grocery store they have charging stations . She said it costs over 10  times the local cost per KWHOUR  to use them . Few get used.
> 
> ...


Fox News ? ?  =  negative truths ! !


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## terryd (Aug 2, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> .......   This latest climate disaster is not that at all science predicted this years ago that there would be big solar storms that would affect us . ..........


Solar storms are nothing at all to do with global warming - which is a fact whether you like it or not.  Solar storms are bursts of geomagnetic radiation which normally are reflected around the Earth by our own magnetic field - hence the North and South Borealis' caused by the interaction of the two (that's why Mars is not a viable planet to live on comfortably, i.e. no magnetic core to deflect the geomagnetic radiation).  However it is possible that extra large bursts (or 'storms if you like) of radiation can penetrate these magnetic fields but will not affect the climate as fossil fuels do, but they could interferee with or even knock out satellites such as GPS, internet, telecommunications etc, all of which modern life depends on.

TerryD


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## terryd (Aug 2, 2022)

terryd said:


> Solar storms are nothing at all to do with global warming - which is a fact whether you like it or not.  Solar storms are bursts of geomagnetic radiation which normally are reflected around the Earth by our own magnetic field - hence the North and South Borealis' caused by the interaction of the two (that's why Mars is not a viable planet to live on comfortably, i.e. no magnetic core to deflect the geomagnetic radiation).  However it is possible that extra large bursts (or 'storms if you like) of radiation can penetrate these magnetic fields but will not affect the climate as fossil fuels do, but they could interferee with or even knock out satellites such as GPS, internet, telecommunications etc, all of which modern life depends on.
> 
> TerryD


Deflected, not 'reflected' - sorry.

TerryD


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## chrsbrbnk (Aug 3, 2022)

I suppose if you had a really really big solar storm and managed to strip off part of the atmosphere........


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## terryd (Aug 4, 2022)

chrsbrbnk said:


> I suppose if you had a really really big solar storm and managed to strip off part of the atmosphere........


Hi Chrsbrbnk,

An interesting thought.  Yes I suppose that IS possible but the chance of that is so negligible as to be zero in practice.  Mars started losing it's amosphere around 4 billion years ago, give or take a few million according to research by NASA scientists and it took around 500 million years to wipe away most or the atmosphere (so it's not a 'one off' or fast process) - there still is a little of it left and the process is ongoing.  Another factor is that the Sun was much more active in that period with much larger and more frequent Coronal Mass Eruptions (the originators of 'Solar storms') and was spinning faster, but now at it's middle age it is much less active.  

So in answer to your hypothesis I think we should be concentrating on human activity as the driver of present climate change, we are powerless in controlling the Sun.


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## hanermo3 (Aug 4, 2022)

Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.

The tesla can get charged for free at hundreds of supermarkets around spain (they make a profit at it),
or for free during the day from our 10 kW solar PV array.
About 5 hours at 0.8 cop == 40 kWh or so.
== 40% == 240 km range, for free.
Under 0.01€/kWh.

In any emergency need, the tesla can be charged at 25 kW at home, and will be full in 4 hours.
At peak charge .30€, the cost will be 30€ - solar, approx 15€.
Charging during the night, the EV costs about 2-4c/kWh, == 4 € for a full tank.
Difference about 35x.

The volvo costs 130€ to fill 65 liters.
The difference is 4.5x in favour of EV, worst case, and over 20x in favour of EV, typical use.


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## hanermo3 (Aug 4, 2022)

Furthermore, re EV, in distress I could charge any EV at 25 kW in any of a hundred points near me in Barcelona, paying maybe 40€ for it at most.
IF the 20 or so municipal free charging points and the carrefour free charging points were full.

So any EV owner does not really *need* their own fast charging, nor *need* their own large PV array.

Anyone buying a premium car at 50k€ and up is losing most of the money over 10 years.
Weather EV or gas.
But a good EV car also saves almost as much or more than the depreciacion in fuel costs.

Good EV cars with a large battery will start to arrive in about 2023 - from about 20-200 manufacturers.
The "tesla lesson" is that an ev needs a large battery.
Short cycling-longevity-thermal conditioning-peak power-etc.
Any EV with a small battery is doomed. So are hybrids.


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## Steamchick (Aug 5, 2022)

Lots of debate here. 
From my "car plant" experience, (Obsolete since retirement). the Regulations are written so the standard test for driving is the same for wet fuel and electric cars, and hybrids of the 2 technologies. The total wet fuel consumed is calculated to determine the "mpg", and therefore CO2 emissions value from that, but when there is some Battery energy used (as well or instead of wet fuel) then that is measured during the test drive and a conversion from kWh to "CO2" is made according to the latest government figures for "grams of CO2 per kWh" . These Government figures are based on the previous 12 months of burning stuff, (including Nuclear), wind, solar, hydro-, tidal, etc. generation. It doesn't include the "solar panel" generation from domestic homes, because they don't know really what was generated that way. But I think there is some estimate in there... 
So ultimately, when you buy a car, be it a gas guzzler or total battery electric, or anything between, the Manufacturer has to quote the "equivalent" CO2 generation per mile/km. And we are taxed on that!
As an aside, I think a human generates around 40~45 gms of CO2 per mile, but the food absorbed to power the human is totally recycled and not "fossil fuel" - so the net effect on the planet in the life of the human is zero CO2. A car at the same 40-45gms of CO2 per mile would be FOSSIL FUEL CO2. - Which is the stuff that will affect our grand-children's lives...
It was just a thought FYI.
K2

P.S. I may be wrong... but all generating utilities must declare to the Government how much fossil fuel they use p.a. - including the fuel oil deliveries for their vehicles, stand-by generators, etc.  Hence there is not just the Coal/Oil burned in boilers... but even Nuclear plants consume some fossil fuels. e.g. in disaster happens (3-mile island, Chernobyl, etc.) and a nuclear plant is shut-down, then stand-by generators kick-in immediately to power pumps to cool reactors, etc. to keep us safe.... and these are not small generators. They must be run at intervals to confirm the rapid start-up to full load, etc. so they do use fossil fuel in Nuclear plants. Coal plants have had such things as Diesel locomotives hauling coal from adjacent coal mines to the Power station site, Diesel powered Dozers, etc. to move the coal to the conveyor pick-up points to feed the boilers, etc... 
Hence ALL fossil fuels are accounted...


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## ajoeiam (Aug 5, 2022)

hanermo3 said:


> Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
> A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
> Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmmm - - - so if I bought the Tesla today $100k here. 
I don't buy vehicles that expensive. 
Say I compared buying that to an older Mercedes diesel (similar quality inside the car). 

Even if I bought the Mercedes new - - - - same price - - OK. 
Then it might be worth getting the Tesla - - - except - - - here - - - cold weather means that range SUCKS. 
Battery life will also not be wonderful!!!!
Changing a $35 to 40k battery every 5 years isn't my idea of 'wonderful'. 

So if I compared buying a car like I prefer to drive - - - say something like a Toyota Yaris. 
Well Tesla - - - cheap for fill up and cost per distance - - - sorry - - - - EXPENSIVE. 
My choice - - - - not my idea of cheap for fill but cost for distance - - - - - - almost reasonable (fuel is far too expensive imo!!!). 

I've been hearing about reasonable EVs for what - - - about 4 years now. 
I do follow battery technology and upcoming technology. 
I'm not seeing that silver bullet yet for even reasonable EVs never mind for honest to pete cheap transportation. 
Where I live  - - - everything has been designed around car travel - - - - likely would be very very difficult to change. 
No EVs that I can see in my future. 
(If you look at heavy equipment - - - - even less likely!!) 

So - - - maybe if you want to even talk about low cost - - - perhaps you should work from the viewpoint of cost per distance traveled. 
Please - - - don't forget to include ALL costs (insurance, repairs, maintenance, depreciation and not just fuel(!!!!!!!!!)).


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## terryd (Aug 6, 2022)

hanermo3 said:


> Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
> A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
> Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.
> 
> ...


Hi Hanermo, 
An interesting read from someone with actual experience.  just a couple of questions for someone who lives in a more notherly latitude and putting aside for a moment the climate costs of burning fossil fuels.

Firstly you say that the Tesla has a 600km range (Tesla quoted figure), how is that affected by real driving conditions such as here in the UK where for a part of the year we need to drive with headlights, windscreen wipers, heater (or climate control).  Is there a temperature cost as we often have freezing weather during winter.  I often drive long distances at night so range is important for me.  It would be even more important perhaps even further north where sunlight is reduced during for half of the year and much driving is in the dark unlike sunnier climes.  One of our Motoring organisations points out that:

"At a speed of 31mph, a temperature of 15 degrees C and on 15-inch wheels, the Renault Zoe should deliver 278 miles of electric range. This drops to 190 miles if you increase the speed to 56mph, and 185 miles if you use the heater.The range falls even further if the temperature drops below freezing. It’s why EV drivers find that they can’t travel as far in the winter. That, and the increased reliance on the blowers, heater and accessories like heated seats."  On top of that of course a more aggressive driving style will reduce range especially if the most is made of the impressive acceleration and top speed.

Secondly a Tesla S with the maximum range you quote costs upwards of £95,000 here in the UK whereas a Volvo V60 can be bought for around £43,000 a difference of £52,000 (both new), so over say a 10 year life it costs £5,200 a year extra which surely must be part of the running costs, or, if I bought the car for cash I would have the difference earning me interest of say 3% here in the UK that's over £1500 a year lost.  If I buy on credit the more expensive option (i.e. the Tesla) would cost me in more expensive interest charges.

There must also be an infrastructure cost, albeit small, in having a 10kw solar pane array installed. My 4kw installation cost me £12,500 here in the UK just over 10 years ago but it is less efficient than say if I were in Spain where the annual sunshine is greater.  If I didn't have a solar array I don't think that it would be cost effective to install one and would have to pay normal electric prices for charging but so with the Tesla S 100kwh battery a full charge would cost me around £32 at home at current energy prices (and rising).

TerryD


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## lohring (Aug 6, 2022)

In the beginning of this thread I stated that I've had a Tesla Model 3 for 4 years and 67,000 miles.  I live in a moderate climate (Oregon, USA).  I've been involved with IC engines since high school where I won awards for a 10 cc model engine I designed and built in shop.  I've built dynamometers to test 26 cc engines we used to set model boat records.  However, there has been a shift toward electric power in today's model boat racing.  The fastest model boat is electric powered.  We used this technology to set a full sized kilometer record in 2008 for electric power that still stands.  All this has been about performance, not the environment.

My lessons from Tesla ownership:
The car is quicker than nearly any other non Tesla vehicle.  It's really easy to accelerate to 100 mpg while passing.
The car is a lot less expensive to operate.  I didn't drive much last month, but electricity cost $41.  Gasoline would have cost $148.  Usually it costs twice that for electricity with equivalent gasoline cost approaching $300.  On top of that there are no tune ups or oil changes.
The lifetime power use averaged 300 watt hours per mile or almost 120 mpg.
The car has needed one warranty repair that was performed at the local service center.  They were wonderful and gave me a Model S loaner for the week it took to get the part.
Usable range is around 200 miles from 90% to 10% battery.  That will go down some if it's cold, but that hasn't been a noticeable  issue for me.
Trips are not a problem due to Tesla's Supercharger network.  I need to stop every 2 to 3 hours for meals and rest stops.  Charging takes around the same 15 to 30 minutes.
Normally home charging takes no time compared to an IC vehicle where you need to drive to the gas station, wait in line, and stand around to pump gas.  All you do is plug the car in and wake up in the morning with a full "tank".
On top of all that, Autopilot makes driving a lot less stressful.  You still need to pay attention.

Lohring Miller


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## Steamchick (Aug 7, 2022)

I am enjoying this debate. I am a member of a "Model Engineering club", where some members have steam and/or electric locos to run on the 1/4mile fixed track. We give free rides to Joe Public, on high days and Holidays, maybe 20~40 days a year? Every weekend in summer, for 3 or 4 hours. A good chance to run Steam Locos. But for Passenger hauling we use battery electric locos, mostly. We have recently reduced from 2 x 4 adult bogies to 1 x 3 Adults bogie, for track and rolling stock wear and safety reasons. But notice that the batteries are lasting longer as the electrical loads are reduced. 
The comparison - used to argue the right tool for the right application - is simple: 
   # A steam loco takes 30mins to prepare for passenger hauling. A battery electric 5 mins. 
   # A battery electric "goes to bed" in 5 mins, but the steam loco takes about 1 hour, to drop the fire, cool down/blow-down, clean and put to bed. So most favour electric hauling of passengers: - the others just run steam because it is so interactive (and rewarding?) - but always attracts most passengers, old and young!. 
Hence Ford et al sell many "every-day cars" and relatively fewer "fun" cars.
All I can say on the "road use" of battery electrics versus "Wet" fuel IC vehicles, is that we made way from horse power to electric vehicles FIRST (1895-ish?), then chemical powered vehicles, as IC engines were developed to be practical in vehicles, and fuelling became readily available. (except on railways, where horses gave way to coal a century earlier, before electrickery was invented.).








						EARLY ELECTRIC VEHICLES - Classics World
					

Electric vehicles have been around ever since the rechargeable battery was invented and in ten years’ time this type of propulsion is currently set to replace the internal combustion engine.




					classicsworld.co.uk
				



120 years on... Re-fuelling electric vehicles is still seen as a BIG handicap for NON-electric vehicle users. e.g. If I visit family 170 miles away, I can easily buy petrol every 20 miles or so en route. BUT re-charging a battery car (except Tesla's huge battery) would mean an 8 hour stop at my relations house and plug it into their mains, with a trailing lead across the public footpath. Just so I can return home in a single trip. So my 360mile trips to visit Mother and friends is not an option. So I would have to factor in the cost of about 12~20 hires p.a. of IC engined cars for weekends away, with the "fuelling freedom" I currently enjoy...
A pity, as I am a fan of electric cars - but IN THE RIGHT APPLICATION. If "like many" I just used it locally (within 50 miles) and could afford a second car, then it would probably be a "bettery" electric town car. My next car is a mild hybrid... more suited to my needs. Town economy and weekend long trips = "hybrid" use!
If you can afford and want a Tesla, "well done", as you have a successful money stream, as no doubt paying so much for a car is a real luxury for the majority of Brits. We Brits typically buy cars for £20~25K... not £50~100k, and that single fact precludes electric cars for the majority.
But a good debate, 
K2


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## lohring (Aug 7, 2022)

My experiences are in the US.  However, looking at a map of England shows quite a few Superchargers, especially in southern England.  To travel to your family you would need to recharge at the Supercharger that's nearby.  That would take about 30 minutes.  You then should have more than enough for a return trip.  It's a little inconvenient, but when I make a similar trip I leave early in the morning and eat breakfast at the charge stop.  

As I recall England has 240 volt outlets standard.  If you spend much time at your family's home, that should charge the car more quickly than 8 hours depending on the current available.  I can go around 200 miles on a charge so you wouldn't need to add a full charge to get home.

The Chinese have several high quality electric cars that will cost a lot less than Teslas.  Of course you need to add tariffs to the base price.  In the US that's 25% compared to 1/10 that for Japanese cars.  Tesla is starting to allow other brands to use their chargers and other companies are starting to build charging networks.  My experience has been that non Tesla chargers are slow and may not work.  Tesla's navigation system tells how many chargers are available and working at the next charge stop.  Despite the emphasis on charge networks, the vast majority of charging will be done over night at home.  That results in a big cost and time saving.

Lohring Miller


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## rklopp (Aug 7, 2022)

We've had a VW eGolf since 2016. It is a great car for trips for groceries, school, work, and the airports. We just charge it overnight off a normal 120-V outlet. It can easily burn rubber. I am really getting used to not having to go to the gas station and worry about oil changes. I also like the idea that I am moving less carbon from the ground to the air that I, my kids, and grandkids will have to deal with. We looked at an original Leaf at the time, but found the Leaf cheesy and tinny compared to the VW. The latter is a lot more consistent with what I expect from a German car.

I am itching to replace my '08 BMW wagon with a longer-distance electric, but want to wait until the market settles. The BMW is starting to nickel and dime me, but is still very drivable.


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## terryd (Aug 7, 2022)

lohring said:


> ...........................  Despite the emphasis on charge networks, the vast majority of charging will be done over night at home.  That results in a big cost and time saving.
> 
> Lohring Miller


Hi Lohring, 
As for home charging many homes in the UK are terraced or flats (small 'apartments') usually with no designated parking places as houses are more expensive here than in the US due to the shortage of building land.  In fact almost exactly 50% of our homes are like this.  I recently spent almost a year living in Edinburgh and rented a relatively new flat and after a days work often had to park my car some distance away  there are also many city centre apartments with only street parking.  It would take a huge communal investment to provide suitable charging points at these properties with some method of arranging payment for the electricity used, but at the moment there is no mention of that from any authorities despite our government aiming to ban the sales of ICE vehicles from 2030.  Despite there being as you say many 'supercharge points' around in the south of the UK;  in our area - more rural and small town - the only public chargers available are a couple at two of our local supermarkets, none are 'superchargers' and the car parks are usually nearly full with up to 100 cars at each store.

I am a fan of electric cars but apart from the high price of EVs at the moment,  often have to travel long distances and also like to tow my touring caravan for holidays in Europe as well as here in the UK which reduces range of EVs drastically so my possibilities are limited right now.  I also care about climate change and have a solar panel array, my electricity is provided by a renewable energy supplier and my house is heated by an air source heat pump but I don't see EVs as a viable alternative at the moment.





Flats






Terraced

TerryD


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## terryd (Aug 7, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> ...........
> 120 years on... Re-fuelling electric vehicles is still seen as a BIG handicap for NON-electric vehicle users. e.g. If I visit family 170 miles away, I can easily buy petrol every 20 miles or so en route. BUT re-charging a battery car (except Tesla's huge battery) would mean an 8 hour stop at my relations house and plug it into their mains, with a trailing lead across the public footpath. Just so I can return home in a single trip............
> K2


Hi Steamchick,

And using a trailing lead across a public footpath is an open invitation for a scammer to trip and have an 'accident' in order to claim damages, and you probably can't insure against that!  It's a major problem with terraced housing with no dedicated parking.  Even if there were public charging facilities in those circumstances, such as the proposal to install them on lamp posts, how long before hooligans begin to think it 'fun' to unplug a row of charge cables at night leaving residents with flat batteries.
Perhaps I'm too pessimistic about human behaviour?

TerryD


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## davidyat (Aug 8, 2022)

*I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?*

An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:

“As an engineer I love electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT BE PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you will face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.


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## HMEL (Aug 8, 2022)

hanermo3 said:


> Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
> A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
> Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.
> 
> ...


So cant resist doing the math-- Lets say my gas auto is 20 % efficient.  Its probably higher.  But a 6 times greater for an electric vehicle is 120 % efficiency.  Now that number is a bit questionable.  My experience is a kw cost 15 cents and its going up another 14% due to rate increases.  I wonder how long it will be before these economics fail and we come to the realization it is not what they say it is.  I suspect it will be when they discover they cant find enough, copper, lithium and acids to build all these cars.  Not to mention when the thermodynamics catch up with the calculations.


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## Steamchick (Aug 9, 2022)

Hi Terry, Of course you are right. I lived in a flat on the 5th floor, and had a garage at road level, so when doing maintenance at night needed a 50ft cable out of the window down to the garage /van where I was working... I can't see that working to charge cars from the 27th floor of a tower block!
I don't know who can legislate for the 20% or whatever of mis-behaving population... Car companies have to have super clever security to stop people taking most of the cars ad lib, and to prevent fuel theft... And people will try and steal cables to sell the copper for scrap! (They manage to steal 25kV overhead lines from railways!).
And putting charging boxes on every lamp-post will only serve 1 in 5 or 10 vehicles parked on the street.... If you can park and find a spare socket!
The original "National" idea was to do a few things: 
 # Reduce a country's dependence on importing/burning oil fuels, (I.E. Generate solar and wind, except at night or in calm weather... Then you use Batteries that people have in their cars!)
 # Utilise people's car batteries to absorb the "surplus" electrical energy from overnight generation, now we have stopped using large steel plants, and other 24 hour industry for Base load. (We had street lighting all night - just to keep the reactors cool - until we changed to "Energy efficient" LED lights! WHO needs the lights ON when we are all off-the streets - asleep in bed?)
 # Keep commuting pollution down by using stored electricity for the cars carrying Harry and Josephine to work and back, that could charge it all day charging from locally installed "Solar" generation, and at night on "cheap metered" power from utilities... (Who would invest in either of those without wanting to make a hefty profit?).
 # And the "used" vehicle Batteries (<80% original storage capacity) can be re-cycled into "Domestic" batteries so your solar array can charge buy day, then light your home by night... = 5~10 years in cars, another 10~15 years in the house, while we develop commercially effective disposal/recycling of the cells).
Despite the added fire risk of cells having a thermal incident while charging or discharging when 25 years old! - And where in your apartment block can you put "your" Solar array, and storage cells?

 A lot of random "market" exploitation is going on with a lack of Government "joined-up thinking". - Probably because Politicians do not "connect" ideas the way Engineers must... Politicians simply pamper to the wants of money-men and voters, without any consideration of making a "good place to live and be happy" - and take HUGE wages from us in doing so! We should burn them instead of fossil fuels! Apparently they make plenty of hot air.
K2


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## DKGrimm (Aug 9, 2022)

Interesting to read all these comments.  Diverse opinions, to be sure, but I get a sense that everybody has a pretty good idea of the plusses and minuses.  I leased and drove a Nissan Leaf for three full years in the midcontinent US environment.  I loved the car in many ways:  fun to drive, practical for in-town use, cheap to run, no oil changes, etc., etc.  But I don't own it any more.  A couple of main reasons:  First, trips of 500+ miles in rural US are just not possible, both because of lack of recharge stations and because of the huge time waste to sit and charge if you can find one.  Second, when the temperature falls below 0 F the car is just not a reasonable way to get around.  Range falls below half.  And the straw that broke the camel's back, no useful cabin heat from the heat pump cabin heater, and totally undriveable in any kind of freezing rain because of lack of windshield defroster at that temperature. I reluctantly turned the car in at the end of the lease and bought one with really good gas mileage and a heater.


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## ofaf (Aug 9, 2022)

Government will never give up the tax revenue it gets from fossil fuel usage.  As more people go electric, government will find ways of maintaining the revenue stream probably by a tax on EV recharge.


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## Bentwings (Aug 9, 2022)

terryd said:


> i only had two 6 week excursion to Central Europe . I saw exactly what you describe . Your picture of sidewalk filled with cars we had a guy park a 1/4 million dollar Ferrari’ right in front of our door to the hotel. EV WERENT EVEN A DREAM THEN however I can see that a 100 foot supercharger cord would be a real problem to roll up when it’s pouring rain or blowing up a storm. I live in a small senior home and even a short cord would be a problem . When it’s -25 deg f and a foot of snow it certainly would not be fun trying to cool up a stiff cord each home does not have big yards enough space for two cars that’s it I have a 6?car parking lot in front of my place but how would I ever get that black stuff snake rolled up in the morning then un roll it at night . It’s hard enough to plug in a block heater I used to have a small generator for my big truck but that was a pain to move qaround too plus it needed to be inside in the winter  The areas we stayed in nearly everyone rode bikes. We though this very unusual, but we think nothing of spending an hour in traffic in the morning then another to go home .  Frankly I don’t think EV  IS THE WAY Of the future I think this green new deal is nonsense . It simply does not follow science  there were local smog yes but ironically I YHINK diesel caused this, and I’m a diesel fan  diesel emissions have been dramatically reduced   I just saw a test of new Ford EV truck towing a 6000 pound RV  trailer vs new  chev truck towing identical trailer , both traveling the same route and distance . It was about a wash cost wise as the supercharge RV cost more than gas  time wise the chev was far ahead as his gas stop was about 10 min max where EV. Was hours   GM is on track to use lease batteries on new EV WHEN CHARGE LEVEL GETS TOO LOW YOU SIMPLY GOBTO YHE DEALER AND SWAP BATTERIES  if “gas” stations and cars are made so you can just swap out charged batteries then EV. WILL BECOME MORE PRACTICAL  however the fact that the electric power has to come from somewhere. So instead of nat gas or coal neuclneuclear  power has to be developed your distant neighbor France has lots of his . Locally the big plant was shut down several years ago . I go to a small grocery store they have ten supercharger stations . All are covered with weather bags. Not in service  my daughter in law works in a large grocery store the charg cost to use the chargers is over ten times home electric power  so EV  is not imaginary power  to measure costs you need to look at cost per mile driven. I used to keep excel spread sheets for all my cars and truck including my street hot rod . By far my one ton diesel dual heavy duty truck was the lowest cost per mile . I gave the truck to my son who has restored it. It has 450000 miles with virtually no major repair cost . I lost a wheel bearing and spindle so that was 3-400$  100k miles on tires . It still has the original rear brakes gets 18-20 mpg towing 12k pound trailer easy new trucks are lucky to get that not towing .
> Hi Lohring,
> As for home charging many homes in the UK are terraced or flats (small 'apartments') usually with no designated parking places as houses are more expensive here than in the US due to the shortage of building land.  In fact almost exactly 50% of our homes are like this.  I recently spent almost a year living in Edinburgh and rented a relatively new flat and after a days work often had to park my car some distance away  there are also many city centre apartments with only street parking.  It would take a huge communal investment to provide suitable charging points at these properties with some method of arranging payment for the electricity used, but at the moment there is no mention of that from any authorities despite our government aiming to ban the sales of ICE vehicles from 2030.  Despite there being as you say many 'supercharge points' around in the south of the UK;  in our area - more rural and small town - the only public chargers available are a couple at two of our local supermarkets, none are 'superchargers' and the car parks are usually nearly full with up to 100 cars at each store.
> 
> ...


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## Shopgeezer (Aug 9, 2022)

All the detailed cost calculations above only use the pump price of gas in the cost per mile for gas cars. There is no consideration of the costs to society of the CO2 produced. As the island nations of the Pacific have recently told us, this will be countless billions of dollars. Strapping on blinders and only seeing the sharpened pencil for costs isn’t getting at the problem. Of course there will be huge technical and societal challenges. Let’s role up our sleeves and get at them.


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## dungeness58 (Aug 9, 2022)

As an owner of a 2014 fully electric Leaf, I have to comment on the reply by Davidyat.

1: WA State charges EV owners $150.00 per year for road tax, which, at our electricity rate in WA State, is more than the electricity we buy to run the car per year.

2: I, as many have, calculated the cost of electricity to operate an EV.  It is quite low.  Why?, because there are little losses in an electric car.  The Leaf, as with most EV cars, gets 4.5 miles per kWh of electricity.  The national average for electricity is $0.13 per kWh.  So you are looking right at $0.03 per mile.  That is 3 cents.  So yes, the REAL cost has been discussed.

3: Because 75% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is lost to heat, electricity is the most efficient way to power a car.  After climbing up a 5200 foot mountain, the motor on the Leaf is barely warm.  Very little losses, and did I mention that we get back all that potential energy on the drive down as the motor charges the battery?

4: There are many chargers that can be installed in a home.  We have a 240V 20 amp Level 2 bought on ebay for 200 bucks that charges at 18 miles per hour.  Fine for home use.  Level 2 chargers are up to 70 amps for more money.  The average home has a 200 amp service.

5: Electrical infrastructure...  The idea that the grid can't handle the additional electrical increase is nonsense.  I track our usage and about 8% of our home electrical usage goes into charging our car, which is driven a lot.  Electrical companies would be more than delighted to have to increase capacity to sell more electricity. 

6:  They are called wind turbines, not windmills.  The are not expensive but cheap.  Wind in the US has passed up Hydro.  See chart below.

7: Your "Eric test drove the Chevy Volt" is a version of a story that has long been passes around and is full of intentional mistakes.  Here is one big one.  No one pays $1.16 per kWh for electricity.  The author of this story has moved the decimal place.  It should be $0.116, which would be close to average price in the US.

8:  Why would ICE drivers complain about people driving EV's?  We EV drivers are reducing the demand of gasoline which will reduce the price of gasoline for them.

9:  Oil is not used to make electricity in the US, well, a bit.  Really.  Please study this chart.  Flowcharts
Of note is the small amount of oil that is used to make electricity, think Hawaii.  Also the minuscule amount of electricity used for transportation.  I thought it was a mistake so contacted LLNL and asked it that included all of the electric trains and busses.  They said yes.  Electricity is very efficient because of the low losses, both in generation, transmission, and use.

My view is this.  Do everything we can with electricity, save the oil for air travel, coal for antique steam engines, and maybe save gas for cooking.


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## ajoeiam (Aug 10, 2022)

dungeness58 said:


> As an owner of a 2014 fully electric Leaf, I have to comment on the reply by Davidyat.
> 
> 1: WA State charges EV owners $150.00 per year for road tax, which, at our electricity rate in WA State, is more than the electricity we buy to run the car per year.
> 
> 2: I, as many have, calculated the cost of electricity to operate an EV.  It is quite low.  Why?, because there are little losses in an electric car.  The Leaf, as with most EV cars, gets 4.5 miles per kWh of electricity.  The national average for electricity is $0.13 per kWh.  So you are looking right at $0.03 per mile.  That is 3 cents.  So yes, the REAL cost has been discussed.



Hmmmmmmm - - - - and you haven't noticed that both the fees for consumption and the flat fees on electricity have been growing - - - in my experience by far more than inflation amounts  - - - its called a total lack of competition and monopoly systems love their flat fees (its a great profit stream!)



dungeness58 said:


> 3: Because 75% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is lost to heat, electricity is the most efficient way to power a car.  After climbing up a 5200 foot mountain, the motor on the Leaf is barely warm.  Very little losses, and did I mention that we get back all that potential energy on the drive down as the motor charges the battery?



Losses are actually higher than 75% but then not all of the losses are heat there are a few other factors there (heat is the major loss though). I prefer diesel engines - - this point showing one of the major reasons. Diesels are, imo anyway, far easier to trouble shoot issues on. 

You would not be able to harvest "all that potential energy" - - - battery charging systems are never 100% efficient.



dungeness58 said:


> 4: There are many chargers that can be installed in a home.  We have a 240V 20 amp Level 2 bought on ebay for 200 bucks that charges at 18 miles per hour.  Fine for home use.  Level 2 chargers are up to 70 amps for more money.  The average home has a 200 amp service.
> 
> 5: Electrical infrastructure...  The idea that the grid can't handle the additional electrical increase is nonsense.  I track our usage and about 8% of our home electrical usage goes into charging our car, which is driven a lot.  Electrical companies would be more than delighted to have to increase capacity to sell more electricity.



Hmmmm - - - I have read far too many studies regarding the extreme fragility of the grid as we have it today. 
Just last summer we had a major wind storm blow though, our electrical entity specializes in ignoring preventative maintenance so a couple sections of main line were blown over. Posts within 5 miles of me. We were some of the fortunate ones - - - -we were only without power some 18 hours. Others within less than 3 miles of us were without power for some 44 hours - - - - that's getting to be a serious outage - - - - an electric vehicle in that time becomes a huge liability very very quickly! 



dungeness58 said:


> 6:  They are called wind turbines, not windmills.  The are not expensive but cheap.  Wind in the US has passed up Hydro.  See chart below.



Might not be too expensive in your terms - - - have you ever looking into the costs for siting?
The permitting process is crazy complicated and expensive!!!



dungeness58 said:


> 7: Your "Eric test drove the Chevy Volt" is a version of a story that has long been passes around and is full of intentional mistakes.  Here is one big one.  No one pays $1.16 per kWh for electricity.  The author of this story has moved the decimal place.  It should be $0.116, which would be close to average price in the US.
> 
> 8:  Why would ICE drivers complain about people driving EV's?  We EV drivers are reducing the demand of gasoline which will reduce the price of gasoline for them.



By that logic gasoline should also cost less because the refinery has been long paid for. (Most refineries are either approaching their terminal design date or are past it. There have been no new major builds in a very long time. ) 



dungeness58 said:


> 9:  Oil is not used to make electricity in the US, well, a bit.  Really.  Please study this chart.  Flowcharts
> Of note is the small amount of oil that is used to make electricity, think Hawaii.  Also the minuscule amount of electricity used for transportation.  I thought it was a mistake so contacted LLNL and asked it that included all of the electric trains and busses.  They said yes.  Electricity is very efficient because of the low losses, both in generation, transmission, and use.



Every back up generator does NOT run on electricity. 
For better information on the costs of using electricity for transportation I would opine that you need to investigate what is being done in Europe where there is a serious amount of electrically operated transportation. 



dungeness58 said:


> My view is this.  Do everything we can with electricity, save the oil for air travel, coal for antique steam engines, and maybe save gas for cooking.


California has said not to gas - - - - for anything. 
Of course they buy their electricity from anywhere else but local and then who cares how that is made. 

Presently there is a shift moving the coal plants to firing from natural gas. 
Not really an improvement imo - - - -but its a cheap move for the electricity generators. 
Coal can be burnt so that it produces even less pollution (of any kind afaik than even the best gas generation systems). 
Look into ultra super critical power plants - - - - the technology has been available for some over 50 years already - - - have you heard of its use?

Electrical could work for automotive use - - - still more than a few issues though. 
For heavy use - - freight and such - - - still not even close to usable. That largely because rail freight has become almost incidental in use (and far too expensive!). 
There are a lot of issues that still need to be worked out and as quickly as the researchers are working - - - - well the results just aren't piling up - - - at least not that I can see.


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## dungeness58 (Aug 10, 2022)

The cost of electricity in the US has been increasing, but just look at what it was per kWh decades ago and what it is now.  Not your bill, the rate per kWh.  Compare that to your house, car, food, etc.  Electricity is a bargain.

Well of course not, there are losses in charging back the battery, but the losses are just small.

Backup generators are not used much.  Look at the chart, oil use to make electricity is very very small.  The historic LLNL charts can be found on that site and in the past, more oil was used but never very much. 

Yes, events such as hurricanes and ice storms can damage power lines.  Hopefully you saw it coming and charged you EV to 100%.  Before hurricanes we would fill our tanks too because without power, stations can't pump.  Now some are installing backup power.  Bet those lines would be long.

Texas has the highest wind generation, three times that of the next state Iowa, then OK, KS and IL.  Wind turbine installation is cheap and fast compared to building a coal, gas, or nuke plant.  The farmers in TX love them as the checks just roll in.  There is a lifespan, but that is only the blades, hub, and generator.  Just for a moment, think about the bearing for each blade.  Wind Energy Installed Capacity by State

I had to go look it up.  The electrical use in the EU for transportation is higher than the US.  A whopping 0.94%.  I too thought it was higher.  European Energy Flows Sankey – Sankey Diagrams

Should I get a Mach-E or wait for the fully electric Vette?


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## Bentwings (Aug 10, 2022)

Shopgeezer said:


> well you see the issues of EV  ESPECIALLY IN THE COLD ZONE   Ii disagrees-disagree on others seeing the issues. Most have no idea of manufacturing as they have never seen the inside of auto making . I’ve been there been part of the engineering teams  designed mfg equipment studied production costs an records operated the machinery.    You have seen the road costs and tip of ice berg problems . The only way EV will be possible is nuclear energy  all else fails  the earth can well take care of itself . There has not been a climate issue since volcanoes of 539 AD  earth has recovered from that and half a dozen other  eruptions . What China is doing will completely negate anything we can do add Russia and there is a negative effect . Why should we pay for their mistakes?   Take care of us first. They can go to He double chopsticks in a hand bag.  Bring our mfg back to the home land   We can get along just fine . I see Ford just raised the price on their new pickup trucks many thousands of dollars to cover mfg costs . Trucks will now be 100 grand more
> All the detailed cost calculations above only use the pump price of gas in the cost per mile for gas cars. There is no consideration of the costs to society of the CO2 produced. As the island nations of the Pacific have recently told us, this will be countless billions of dollars. Strapping on blinders and only seeing the sharpened pencil for costs isn’t getting at the problem. Of course there will be huge technical and societal challenges. Let’s role up our sleeves and get at them.


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## lohring (Aug 10, 2022)

Tesla Model Y and Model 3 become the two best-selling cars in California
					

Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 have become the two best-selling models in California, and have helped drive the state's




					www.realmicentral.com
				



Change is coming whether you like it or not.

Lohring Miller


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## justintime (Aug 11, 2022)

davidyat said:


> *I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?*
> 
> An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:
> 
> ...





davidyat said:


> *I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?*
> 
> An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:
> 
> ...


Numbers are not at all correct.


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## ofaf (Aug 11, 2022)

If it makes sense, change will come w/o government involvement.  If government is pushing it, it probably does not make sense.

Switching to electric to reduce reliance on fossil fuels makes sense if it is allowed to proceed at a pace that does not disrupt our economy.  When it is forced by government there will be all kinds of unintended consequences, most of them disrupting and harmful.


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## terryd (Aug 11, 2022)

davidyat said:


> .................. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.
> 
> The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.


Hi Davidyat,

I should check your figures or chase your electricity suppplier.  The average cost of electricity in Canada (where I presume you are as you are railing against that government) was $0.179 in 2021 per kWh so your charge would cost $2.87 and your 25 miles costs around $0.206 per mile , not exactly seven times as much.  Of course there are few maintenance charges with an EV compared with a ICE vehicle and far fewer parts to fail and replace. No oil, filter and air filter changes etc.

 Yes the W in kWh should be a capital as it is the initial of one man's name - James Watt and the convention is that if there is an initial of a name it should be a capital for respect, so Ohm, Volt. Amp and Watt even Diesel etc, are named after actual people so should be represented with a capital.  Sorry to be a bit pedantic but I think respect is important.

I agree that the difference in cost between the vehicles is important.  If I kept the say $20,000 dollars difference in a good investment account I could get a return of around 5% pa, i.e. about £1000 dollars pa or around $84 per month, this is a cost of owning that EV so should, in my opinion, be taken into account as a running cost.

TerryD


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## ofaf (Aug 11, 2022)

Don't forget that around 70% of the electricity used to recharge is generated from fossil fuels.  So, when discussing energy efficiency, remember that the energy conversion from BTU in the ground to BTU at the charging station is around 50%.  Then, there is the loss from electric to chemical to mechanical energy at the vehicle.  

If man-made CO2 emissions are a major accelerator of global warming and an existential threat to the survival of mankind, then nuclear energy is the answer.  This is especially true for modern nuclear energy and breeder reactors.  The only CO2 emissions-and these are minor- from nuclear come from the mining and refining of uranium and the transportation of nuclear waste to underground disposal facilities.  And the electric grid system necessary for distribution of nuclear generated energy is already in place.  Also, nuclear waste is minor compared to particulate matter emissions and ash from fossil fuel power plants.

Ah, yes.  There is Chernobyl and a few other nuclear accidents involving antiquated nuclear plants.  Modern nuclear plants are another animal.   Accidents at fossil fuel plants happen all the time but get little press coverage.  Fossil fueled plants also emit health-threatening air emissions and huge amounts of solid waste that has required the evacuation of whole communities. 

So, I say go nuclear and scale back on fossil fuels at a reasonable pace. At the same time, move at a reasonable and economically feasible pace to wind and solar as determined by market demand.


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## Bentwings (Aug 12, 2022)

ofaf said:


> Don't forget that around 70% of the electricity used to recharge is generated from fossil fuels.  So, when discussing energy efficiency, remember that the energy conversion from BTU in the ground to BTU at the charging station is around 50%.  Then, there is the loss from electric to chemical to mechanical energy at the vehicle.
> 
> If man-made CO2 emissions are a major accelerator of global warming and an existential threat to the survival of mankind, then nuclear energy is the answer.  This is especially true for modern nuclear energy and breeder reactors.  The only CO2 emissions-and these are minor- from nuclear come from the mining and refining of uranium and the transportation of nuclear waste to underground disposal facilities.  And the electric grid system necessary for distribution of nuclear generated energy is already in place.  Also, nuclear waste is minor compared to particulate matter emissions and ash from fossil fuel power plants.
> 
> ...


i agree with you ive been on the neuclear bandwagon for many years our country tuns on energy, regardless of where it comes from I see solar farms that have totally wiped it all vegetation excep a few weeds around the edges taking the green vegetation out is shooting yourself in the foot . You have taken a natural material thtst cleans the air completlynoutbifvthevpicture. As for wind farms. Just how do you dispose of tons of carbon fiber blades each is a disaster of non recyclable material  not counting all he metal and concrete parts they kill countless birds that eat lots of nasty insects  no to mention the scavenger bus that Clem up other dead animals  what happens when there is little wind or a storm other way you either get nothing or another mess to try and recycle. Cost? I don’t even want to go there 

Gm is about to turn the table on EV batteries with their leased batteries you run your RV until the battery gets to where it won’t charge enough then head to the dealer they install a rebuilt battery and update your lease .  You still have to provide charging but you get as good as new battery . Cuts the amount of recycle materials by a bunch .  I’ll walk or pedal before I ever buy an EV


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## ofaf (Aug 12, 2022)

I had a friend who worked hard and long to develop a method for economically recycling lithium batteries.  He was not successful.  I'd like to know more about the process GM plans to use to rebuild them.  How much and what kinds of waste will be generated and how will it be disposed of?  What materials will they need for the rebuilds and where will they get them?


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## Bentwings (Aug 12, 2022)

ofaf said:


> I worked in earlynlithium battery mfg plant it was apparent then 20!years ago that recycling lithium batteries would be difficult at best
> I had a friend who worked hard and long to develop a method for economically recycling lithium batteries.  He was not successful.  I'd like to know more about the process GM plans to use to rebuild them.  How much and what kinds of waste will be generated and how will it be disposed of?  What materials will they need for the rebuilds and where will they get them?


 I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer  to run them  looking like magic  I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .


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## Bentwings (Aug 12, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> If they think 100 grand for an EV  is goingvto be standard , they better look at jobs that pay a bunch more . Next they need to rethink education and personal development . I see kids running around doing nothing . I was already working and paying taxes by this age  I have grand kids who do nothing but play video games . My kids did not get away with this. They still talk aboutvthevtime I took the brand new TV set and cut the plug off then took it to good will because they would not stop playing video games at the expense of school.  I was a bad parent. But all of them have good jobs or own their own businesses now and thank me for the push and shove that got them  going . I get asked how I did things like this. I don’t take kindly to “no” and I don’t like being forced to accept a decision I had no choice in .
> I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer  to run them  looking like magic  I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .





Bentwings said:


> I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer  to run them  looking like magic  I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .


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## Bazzer (Aug 13, 2022)

Don't worry about EV's their batteries and charging infrastructure as it is just a temporary blip on the technology landscape.

Read below.









						BMW and Toyota to partner on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles
					

The U.S. network of public hydrogen stations is concentrated in California and not yet developed for mass adoption




					techcrunch.com


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## terryd (Aug 13, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> ........... they kill countless birds that eat lots of nasty insects  no to mention the scavenger bus that Clem up other dead animals  what happens when there is little wind or a storm other way you either get nothing or another mess to try and recycle. Cost? I don’t even want to go there


Hi Bentwings,
it is estimated that there are around 1.7 million birds killed by wind turbines in the US which represents 0.016% of the bird population in the country.

However there are somewhere between 100 million and 1 billion birds killed by flying into glass such as glass skyscrapers every year, no one is sure of exactly how many but the numbers are huge. Plus the fact that those same towers use enormous amounts of concrete, steel, glass, copper, plastics etc much of which is non recyclable and of course given the amount of land in the US there is no real need for them they are more of a prestigious project (such as Trump tower) which the rich and Corporate bodies use to show us mere mortals how rich and powerful they are.  At least wind turbines contribute to us all.

By the way, insects aren't nasty they outnumber us by factors of trillions and are some of the most useful creatures on Earth.

TerryD


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## Shopgeezer (Aug 13, 2022)

Sadly the greatest threat to birds are cats, both domestic and feral. Millions of birds are killed by them every year. If you have a cat get it de-clawed immediately. Between cats and glass buildings we have lost over 3 billion birds in N. America in the last 20 years. I am staggered by that number. Even the researchers doing the counts couldn't believe it. We are heading towards a huge wildlife extinction just as fast as we can.


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## Bentwings (Aug 13, 2022)

Bazzer said:


> Don't worry about EV's their batteries and charging infrastructure as it is just a temporary blip on the technology landscape.
> 
> Read below.
> 
> ...


I suspect gm’s new leasing plan will lead to the drive in gas station where you will just drive in ande a fresh recharged repaired battery will be installed . Time frame only a few minutes longer than conventional “gas” fill up   You will pay for electricity used on your “trade in “ battery “  at this point EV  will become more practical. This will create a new style of “ gas station” maybe som jobs .  I YHINK I read there are about 800k gas station now so that a lot of infrastructure not even thought about yet  it will still cost you 100grand to get a new car but maybe it will be more reliable and durable . My dad told me man many years ago that once you buy your first car it will cost you $100 per month   Ill tell my grand kits it will be a factor of 10 more than that , try $1000 per month, so better plan on getting good education so you can get that high paying job . Don’t forget you will have a house to purchase too,  might as well start today by tossing x box in recycle bin .


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## terryd (Aug 13, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi Davidyat,
> 
> I should check your figures or chase your electricity suppplier.  The average cost of electricity in Canada (where I presume you are as you are railing against that government) was $0.179 in 2021 per kWh so your charge would cost $2.87 and your 25 miles costs around $0.206 per mile , not exactly seven times as much.  Of course there are few maintenance charges with an EV compared with a ICE vehicle and far fewer parts to fail and replace. No oil, filter and air filter changes etc.
> 
> ...


Hi all,

I hand my head in shame  and have to apologise as my arithmetic calculation was way out. I said that your charge cost would be $2.87 for your 25 mile ride and represented a cost of around $0.206. I'm shocked that on a forum full of engineers it was not picked up that the cost per mile is actually approximately $0.115 not so far away from the cost of gasoline in an ICE vehicle but not accounting for the extra costs of servicing, oil, spark plugs changed and filter changing etc on a conventionally powered vehicle. Fortunately having worked in the auto manufacturing industry here in the UK before retiring I am able to carry out my own repairs and servicing at the minimal cost of the parts 

TerryD


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## DKGrimm (Aug 13, 2022)

Lifetime cost per mile for 3 years driving a Leaf from 2016 to 2019 was about $0.06 using electricity priced about $0.18 per KWH.


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## L98fiero (Aug 14, 2022)

Shopgeezer said:


> Sadly the greatest threat to birds are cats, both domestic and feral. Millions of birds are killed by them every year. If you have a cat get it de-clawed immediately. Between cats and glass buildings we have lost over 3 billion birds in N. America in the last 20 years. I am staggered by that number. Even the researchers doing the counts couldn't believe it. We are heading towards a huge wildlife extinction just as fast as we can.


Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?


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## Bazzer (Aug 14, 2022)

My guess is that the problems of deploying the charging infrastructure (from point of generation to power being pushed into the EV battery bank) will defeat the EV juggernaut.

The reason that I think that Hydrogen will succeed is that there are multiple options to get the hydrogen into the car, it could be produced in small home hydrogen plants, it could be pumped into the vehicles at fuelling stations. Existing fuelling stations could be more easily adapted to hydrogen storage than running huge cables many miles to remote locations as is required for EV charging.

The problem is that we have become wedded to a high energy density fuel system.

What ever happens, the authorities had better get on with building banks of nuclear powers stations because we need electricity either for direct charging or for producing hydrogen.


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## L98fiero (Aug 14, 2022)

Bazzer said:


> My guess is that the problems of deploying the charging infrastructure (from point of generation to power being pushed into the EV battery bank) will defeat the EV juggernaut.
> 
> The reason that I think that Hydrogen will succeed is that there are multiple options to get the hydrogen into the car, it could be produced in small home hydrogen plants, it could be pumped into the vehicles at fuelling stations. Existing fuelling stations could be more easily adapted to hydrogen storage than running huge cables many miles to remote locations as is required for EV charging.
> 
> ...


Towards the end of providing hydrogen, I recall seeing somewhere that there have been significant advances in 'relatively' low temperature autocatalytic H2O dissociation to produce the hydrogen, I don't recall what that relatively low temperature was but any reduction would decrease the amount of energy required to produce the hydrogen. Home refuelling would still require high pressure compressors.


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## Bazzer (Aug 14, 2022)

L98fiero said:


> Home refuelling would still require high pressure compressors.


Honda were playing around with a Hydrogen fuel car pilot programme in California about 10 to 12 years ago and their hope was that one day they would provide a home hydrogen generation plant as part of the vehicle package.

I don't see any reason that this would not work given the will.


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## terryd (Aug 14, 2022)

DKGrimm said:


> Lifetime cost per mile for 3 years driving a Leaf from 2016 to 2019 was about $0.06 using electricity priced about $0.18 per KWH.


Hi DKG,

I was repling to a poster who claimed that calculated costs for electricity for an ev was way above the cost of an ice vehicle.  The price of electricity he quoted was out by a factor of 10, i.e. $1.89 instead of $0.189, but in my original post I was embarrased by getting simple arithmetic wrong 

TerryD


L98fiero said:


> Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?


 
I quite agree declawing a cat is one of the most cruel practices. Cats use their claws not only for hunting (how many birds are killed by human 'hunters' every year), they use them for defence, for climbing, for sprinting and for grooming as well as being part of the character and dignity of a sentient being.  As I pointed out in a previous posting far more birds are killed by glass buildings than by any other cause than natural deaths. about 500 million are killed each year by feral cats, not domestic, but around 1 billion are killed by flying into glass buildings and a substantial number by high tension cables (200 million), not to mention farming pesticide residue in the insects they eat. The number killed in acidents with wind turbines is relatively miniscule despite what the politicians claim - you know who.

TerryD


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## Bentwings (Aug 14, 2022)

L98fiero said:


> Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?


my in home nurse showed me something about cat claws. She has claw caps on her cats . They are tiny little plastic caps that fit on kitty claws. She showed me a picture and indeed you can buy them.  I would not put them on out door cat. They need claws for their protection. Just keep them clipped  and trimmed. My son has 3 kittys one is a rescue that has been dev clawed  one is by far the toughest . If a little swipe of foot is not enough to move the other cats it’s full tooth and kick. It’s like a miniature kangaroo .  It got the neighbors dog and pealed it nose wide open so it had to go to the vet. My kitty has her own cat clawing carpet plus the bathtub mat  she is very gentle and rarely claws anything else  even her toys get more chewing than clawing.


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## CaneSelvatico (Aug 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi Bentwings,
> it is estimated that there are around 1.7 million birds killed by wind turbines in the US which represents 0.016% of the bird population in the country.
> 
> However there are somewhere between 100 million and 1 billion birds killed by flying into glass such as glass skyscrapers every year, no one is sure of exactly how many but the numbers are huge. Plus the fact that those same towers use enormous amounts of concrete, steel, glass, copper, plastics etc much of which is non recyclable and of course given the amount of land in the US there is no real need for them they are more of a prestigious project (such as Trump tower) which the rich and Corporate bodies use to show us mere mortals how rich and powerful they are.  At least wind turbines contribute to us all.
> ...





Shopgeezer said:


> Sadly the greatest threat to birds are cats, both domestic and feral. Millions of birds are killed by them every year. If you have a cat get it de-clawed immediately. Between cats and glass buildings we have lost over 3 billion birds in N. America in the last 20 years. I am staggered by that number. Even the researchers doing the counts couldn't believe it. We are heading towards a huge wildlife extinction just as fast as we can.


If you count the total bird killed by wind turbines that's a very small number, compared  to other factors(skyscrapers and cats). Unfortunately if you look at the species of birds in that number the pictures get darker, as mainly big and endangered bird (that have very low reproduction rate) are killed by turbines, birds that cats don't hunt.


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## lohring (Aug 15, 2022)

Electric Vehicles Are Way, Way More Energy-Efficient Than Internal Combustion Vehicles
					

Only a relatively small fraction of gas actually, you know, moves your car around. The rest is wasted.




					www.motortrend.com


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## HMEL (Aug 15, 2022)

lohring said:


> Electric Vehicles Are Way, Way More Energy-Efficient Than Internal Combustion Vehicles
> 
> 
> Only a relatively small fraction of gas actually, you know, moves your car around. The rest is wasted.
> ...


The problem with this type of calculation is the boundary conditions when comparing these systems.  There is no way electricity is produced and distributed at 100 percent efficiency. Even windmills have theoretical losses as they can not totally extract all of the wind energy.  On a side note not one of the wind installations I have seen stand economically on their own without subsidies.  ( Tax Dollars).   Electric cars are getting a free ride on the grid at the expense of all who use it.

Anyone who makes such claims never puts the calculations on paper.  Economic arguments can be made some based on thermodynamics.  But the arguments that are driving this are based on effects on the climate real or perceived.  The ice and ev are two separate energy systems and not comparable on efficiency alone.  The components and materials for electric vehicles can not be extracted without massive amounts of fossil fuels.

So unless numbers and assumptions are stated when making these statements of efficiency they are basically worthless for use in any type of economic comparison.


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## L98fiero (Aug 15, 2022)

HMEL said:


> The problem with this type of calculation is the boundary conditions when comparing these systems.  There is no way electricity is produced and distributed at 100 percent efficiency. Even windmills have theoretical losses as they can not totally extract all of the wind energy.  On a side note not one of the wind installations I have seen stand economically on their own without subsidies.  ( Tax Dollars).   Electric cars are getting a free ride on the grid at the expense of all who use it.
> 
> Anyone who makes such claims never puts the calculations on paper.  Economic arguments can be made some based on thermodynamics.  But the arguments that are driving this are based on effects on the climate real or perceived.  The ice and ev are two separate energy systems and not comparable on efficiency alone.  The components and materials for electric vehicles can not be extracted without massive amounts of fossil fuels.
> 
> So unless numbers and assumptions are stated when making these statements of efficiency they are basically worthless for use in any type of economic comparison.


As with any system, when you consider the total cost, efficiencies get a bit different, oil is cheap only if you assume there will be no significant environmental costs and the costs of rectifying the damage or the destruction of, in the worst estimates, 80 - 90% of humanity. I doubt we will solve the problems here and a Princeton University study shows that what we say or think will have no statistical significance on how policy is made but it is something to think about.


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## Steamchick (Aug 16, 2022)

Reading these posts, about electric "100% efficiency" etc, is not the whole story. Battery electric car manufacturers have to declare the "equivalent CO2" figures for comparison with ICE fuel burners, so e.g. the leaf is about 45gms/km compared to a small ICE car at 95gms per km of CO2... So in terms of poisoning the planet with FOSSIL FUEL CO2, the battery cars go twice as far on the same pollution.
(My data is not up-to-date, just approximate = what I remember before retiring from the business).
The kW/km to CO2/km figures have to be converted using a GOVERNMENT figure for electric generation. (Based on the previous year's data for fossil fuel consumption by generators versus total electric generation of the country).
But possibly not everyone wants to use all the facts, Politicians almost never do.
K2


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## Mosey (Aug 16, 2022)

CaneSelvatico said:


> If you count the total bird killed by wind turbines that's a very small number, compared  to other factors(skyscrapers and cats). Unfortunately if you look at the species of birds in that number the pictures get darker, as mainly big and endangered bird (that have very low reproduction rate) are killed by turbines, birds that cats don't hunt.


My cat is completely indoor and no the threat to the birds. My neighbor's cat is a free roaming killer. Nothing I can do about her. She is owned by a former Director of Environmental agency.
I keep hoping my resident Redtail Hawks get her.
Seems to me that this discussion as humorous and full of vacuous rhetoric as it is should be better on another forum.


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## Ken I (Aug 16, 2022)

To quote the skeptical environmentalist Bjorn Lomborg - cats kill non-endangered species like sparrows, Jays etc. They do not kill large raptors (they actually kill cats) - wind turbines are a major threat to the larger and more endangered species.

Large soaring raptors can be seen to “suicidally” circle wind turbines for no apparent reason. It is thought that the raptors pick up on the wingtip vortices and cruise around in them looking for a free “lift” as they do for thermals. Clearly seen in the video link below…..

https://www.youtube.com/watch/na6HxKQQsAM

Theoretical wake vortex of a wind turbine.





Actual wake vortex made visible by unusual weather conditions.




Glider pilots will tell you they share the airspace with soaring birds (modern gliders have better “sink” rates than birds) and you can watch them adjust their flight to remain in the thermal and the glider pilot following his variometer finds himself flying the same course as the birds.

A soaring bird crossing the downwind vortex trail would, on exiting an area of lift will turn back in to it and on subsequent crossings reverse the direction of turn – by this navigation method it zig zags or circles up towards the turbine. Once the bird passes the turbine it turns once again to find the “thermal” it was using. This then becomes the “suicidal” behavior we see.

Clearly the fatal footprint of a wind turbine is very much larger that the physical space it occupies.

It has recently been discovered that birds flying in typical “V” formations do so for reason of energy conservation – stealing a little bit of lift from the wing vortices of the bird diagonally ahead – this behavior was previously thought to be a line of sight issue.






This behavior is typical for large migratory bird species – also at risk from the presence of wind turbines.

Migratory birds travelling over water typically adjust their flight paths to fly over islands to gain the benefit of any thermal lift. An offshore wind turbine would look like a tree, obviously must be supported by an “island” – so they adjust their flight path – through the rotating turbine which in most cases are large enough to transect the typical flight altitude of migratory birds. Again birds adopt these altitudes to best make use of thermals and conserve energy.

The above behavior patterns explain the disproportionate mortality for larger birds, particularly large soaring birds like raptors and migratory species.
Wind power is endangering species that have survived numerous ice ages, sea level changes etc - Global Warming poses no threat to them - Wind Turbines are positively lethal - refer the following link that suggest that environmentalists are in a state of denial over this inconvenient truth.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8807761/wind-farms-vs-wildlife/

This by an Oxford professor of ornithology and an expert on species extinction.

Refer to the following article in which windpower companies are using bird mortality figures and sampling guidelines for 50-60m high wind turbines on 100-130m wind turbines in order to “gloss over” the damage being done to bird (and particularly raptor) populations. They also indulge in wishful thinking such as 30 day periods between surveys when they know from other studies that most carcasses are removed by scavengers within 10 days thus underreporting avian mortalities by anywhere from 2 to 10 times the real values.

Wind turbines kill up to 39 million birds a year! - CFACT

The Irish Sea is festooned with offshore wind farms and sea bird numbers have fallen drastically – the greens are in denial and are trying desperately to find some other plausible cause – preferably finding some way of blaming man/climate change as the cause.

Admittedly causality remains unproven but a drop of 50 to 80% in some seabird populations, concomitant with the growth in offshore wind farms, is certainly alarming.

As Wind Farms Overwhelm The Irish Sea, Isle Of Man Seabird Populations Plummet

There's always more to any argument than that propounded in the sales brochures.

And yes this topic is probably better on another forum - so that's it from me.

Regards, Ken


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## dungeness58 (Aug 16, 2022)

Energy Subsidies?  Everyone might want to look at this data.  








						Energy subsidies in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Just remember that Oil and Gas has been subsidized way before Wind and Solar.  Like 1916 so over a century.

Here is another historical link about energy subsidies.   https://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i51/Long-History-US-Energy-Subsidies.html


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## HMEL (Aug 16, 2022)

L98fiero said:


> As with any system, when you consider the total cost, efficiencies get a bit different, oil is cheap only if you assume there will be no significant environmental costs and the costs of rectifying the damage or the destruction of, in the worst estimates, 80 - 90% of humanity. I doubt we will solve the problems here and a Princeton University study shows that what we say or think will have no statistical significance on how policy is made but it is something to think about.


What is said and what is thought is the basis of established policy.  It goes back to the fundamental principal that laws are based on society mores.  Princeton University should know this and too accept the fact what we think has no significance ignores the fact that we vote for those who establish the policy.  To think otherwise is defeatism. 

Policies are political and they fail either because the people who establish them are removed or because they are unworkable. 

80 to 90 percent of humanity loss due to climate change has no calculated basis and can not be calculated nor estimated.  Why not use the number 100%.  Much greater fear factor.

In the case of this energy policy and climate change it will probably fail because Its based on poor science , poor economics, and very poor engineering. Much will be learned as we are now entering the first phase of the Grand Solar Minimum  cycle.  It will be interesting to see how this goes.


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## Steamchick (Aug 17, 2022)

re: "80 to 90 percent of humanity loss due to climate change has no calculated basis and can not be calculated nor estimated. Why not use the number 100%." 
Sports people (and TV commentators, etc.) oft quote "120% performance", etc., and I wonder if some politicians would even go so far as that?
We (engineers) may appreciate the use of numbers and statistics, so killing "120%" of the population "sounds worse" - though impossible, so it is quite likely that some politicians may do so! I heard a headmaster quoting that he believed "100% of his pupils were above average. We don't agree with statistics in this school!", when a reporter suggested that average meant 50% were below average?
The ONLY statistic that makes sense is that, "100% of people die". I once added up all the percentages of deaths by smoking, car accidents, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and a few other things and got well over "100%"! 
Maybe James Bond had the answer? - "You only die twice"?
So who can talk sense and make decisions?
K2


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## terryd (Aug 17, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> re: "80 to 90 percent of humanity loss due to climate change has no calculated basis and can not be calculated nor estimated. Why not use the number 100%."
> Sports people (and TV commentators, etc.) oft quote "120% performance", etc., and I wonder if some politicians would even go so far as that?
> We (engineers) may appreciate the use of numbers and statistics, so killing "120%" of the population "sounds worse" - though impossible, so it is quite likely that some politicians may do so! I heard a headmaster quoting that he believed "100% of his pupils were above average. We don't agree with statistics in this school!", when a reporter suggested that average meant 50% were below average?
> The ONLY statistic that makes sense is that, "100% of people die". I once added up all the percentages of deaths by smoking, car accidents, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and a few other things and got well over "100%"!
> ...


Hi K2,

A similar comment was made by an education minister a few years ago - I forget who it was - who reckoned that the education system was to be improved by his government so that every pupil would be above average!  It says something more about politicians than education.

TerryD


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## Gordon (Aug 17, 2022)

It is possible to be above average in relation to a larger group. Your family can all be above the average weigh of the average weight of your country.


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## terryd (Aug 17, 2022)

Gordon said:


> It is possible to be above average in relation to a larger group. Your family can all be above the average weigh of the average weight of your country.


Of course that is simple statistics,

But not everyone can be above average in a particular group such as the whole school population of a country which was my point.

TDX


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## lohring (Aug 17, 2022)

Wind power is providing more than 9% of total U.S. electricity
					

The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) released three reports Tuesday showing that wind power remains one of America’s fastest-growing energy sources and a generator of high-quality jobs. Wind power accounted for 32% of U.S. energy capacity growth in 2021, employs 120,000 Americans and now provides...




					www.windpowerengineering.com


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## terryd (Aug 17, 2022)

lohring said:


> Wind power is providing more than 9% of total U.S. electricity
> 
> 
> The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) released three reports Tuesday showing that wind power remains one of America’s fastest-growing energy sources and a generator of high-quality jobs. Wind power accounted for 32% of U.S. energy capacity growth in 2021, employs 120,000 Americans and now provides...
> ...


Wind power contributed 24.8% of UK electricity supplied in 2020, having surpassed coal in 2016 and nuclear in 2018.....









						Wind power in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Steamchick (Sep 15, 2022)

That "24%" is probably better than the efficiency of your car... (and mine?). But (like my car!), as winds only blow for part of the time it cannot make "100% of the supply" - unless we create HUGE storage of "electricity" to buffer the wind dwell periods. - Maybe flood Yorkshire with a pumped storage system? - That's about the size of it. - Or dam the Bristol channel from Cornwall to the Pembrokeshire coast?
K2
My tongue-in-cheek just got bitten in my enthusiasm!


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## Steamchick (Sep 15, 2022)

Oh, I just remembered, If ALL the cars, lorries buses etc. had huge traction batteries, we probably could store enough wind electricity to feed our homes etc. for a couple of hours until the wind starts again? - So, the Consumer will carry the bill for the "Energy storage" required... as long as he doesn't drive on calm days...
K2


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## Steamchick (Sep 15, 2022)

More thoughts.. 
When the batteries are so worn that they are less useful for vehicles, we can stuff them in our homes, just when the fire risk of self-discharging cells is starting to increase above "car safety" levels, so from the newly created "flammability risk" of Lithium-ion batteries as they age, our house insurance will increase disproportionately. (?!)
Did you know that on a road car transporter of maybe 7 or 8 cars you can only carry 1 battery electric car? Or on a railway transporter of 20 cars or so, you can carry 2 (max) battery electrics? That's (International?) Government regulations for you... 
So how can we deliver all the battery electric cars they want us to own?
The consequences of Smart phones becoming aflame was one thing, but the risk / consequence of a LARGE and aged lithium-ion battery becoming aflame in your house is really a lot worse....
I think?
Maybe we should keep them in a bomb shelter at the bottom of the garden?
K2


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## Longboy (Sep 16, 2022)

The near term quick development of electric vehicles, most likely because our carbon footprint is being used by nature to stomp us down, will make a progressive advancement by this familiar phrase: "Two steps forward and one step back". Here is an example this month of the one step back!  Chevrolet Volt Owner Charged $30,000 For New Battery


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## Bazzer (Sep 16, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Maybe we should keep them in a bomb shelter at the bottom of the garden?


Damn it, I only fairly recently demolished the air raid shelter that is in my garden, I should have taken notice of a 1964 letter from the government to a previous homeowner prohibiting the demolition of air raid shelters.


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## davidyat (Sep 17, 2022)

*I would like to see the electric supply grid be upgraded to handle the extra load of electric cars before the cars are forced upon us. And do you think the oil lobby in Congress is going to let laws be passed to take away money from them???*


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## ajoeiam (Sep 17, 2022)

Well as California is becoming quite adept at moving their energy pollution to other locales I would bet that such is only going to increase. 

Now as to powerlines - - - here the turkeys built a new line for power export - - - last I heard the demand on the far end didn't happen yet. So the public purse got to spend some 3ish billion to move power from a hydro system that still isn't completed yet and may never finish - - - at least at the rate its going at. 

One of my beefs is that they keep building more lines and a paltry number of cables on each. 
I haven't seen any towers here with more than 9 cables (some have some serious big cables though) - - - north of Stuttgart Germany I saw towers with 40 (!!!!) cables - - - I guess because we have some more space here that we need to pollute out crop land with more towers - - - its the sensible thing to do you know!!!!!!!! (idiots!!!!!!).


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## maybach_man (Sep 17, 2022)

There is a certain symmetry that, here in the UK, during the last Labour government it was proposed to construct some Nuclear power stations to make us pretty self sufficient in Electrical generation. This was vigorously opposed by Greenpeace, who took the government to court and won an injunction to stop the scheme. These power stations would have all been commissioned by now, so we would now have had 'clean energy'. Because of their actions, we are not only still using oil and gas for heating, we are i am sure, going to see a major increase in open fires and stoves in domestic houses causing far more harm to the environment....


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## Lloyd-ss (Sep 17, 2022)

I have noticed that with all hot-button issues, where you have a small number of hardcore extremists at each end of the controversy, that the hateful arguing between the extremists, wastefully consumes all of the energy of the discussion, and all hope of compromise or a common-sense pragmatic solution is handicapped to a fatal level. 
Usually, the majority of the population are somewhere in the middle and want to learn enough about an issue to make an educated decision, but the continuous repetitious yelling of truths, half-truths, and lies, by the extremists at both ends make that impossible. 
Human nature makes it inevitable that an answer that pleases everyone is a fantasy. But a sensible solution that might be grudgingly ok for almost everyone, could be found if the loud mouth extremists, on both sides, would shut up and let the majority in the middle have its time at the podium. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
5% of the people cause 95% of the problems.
Electric cars are not evil, nor will they solve all of the problems of the world. But, they will help improve many things, if approached in a sensible manner. Just my 2 cents worth of podium time.


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