# V-4 Flame Licker, Vacuum engine, Avaleur de Flame



## BronxFigs (Apr 24, 2013)

You-Tube has a video showing this V-4 Vacuum engine, posted by a Mr. Josep MaFont.

I would like to find the plans for this model engine but can find nothing about it besides the rather sketchy information posted with the video.  Most of the comments are worthless.

Can anyone lead me to the drawings for this engine?  I'd like to purchase them, or possibly do a trade.

Please help.

Frank


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 24, 2013)

[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=21xyKBRO_A8[/ame]


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## BronxFigs (Apr 25, 2013)

That's it!  How can I get  the drawings for this version?  I know what it is, and how it works, and if you can do one, you can make three more....but I still want the plans.  I want to buy someone else's thinking and calculations.  It's easier that way.

Frank


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 25, 2013)

It appears to be a mod of duclos. Google "duclos flame eater"


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## BronxFigs (Apr 25, 2013)

JW....Ah....now we have a clue.  I'll look and and see.

Thanks,

Frank


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 25, 2013)

sorry for that last post... i did it from my phone.

That V4 appears to be a version some one did of Phillip Duclos' flame licker.  You can find prints for the single cylinder at johntom.com for sure.  It's the one that looks like a kid did for a school CAD project.

Hope this helps you on your quest.  That would be an interesting engine to build.  Good luck.


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## Canyonman (Apr 25, 2013)

If plans do become available for this engine I want a set too.

Also if the "Provider" would Please drop me a PM I would most appreciate it!

Ken


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## vridhisharma (Apr 26, 2013)

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your post.


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## BronxFigs (Apr 26, 2013)

Looks like two, 60 degree V-2s mounted back-to-back, sharing a common crank.  The adjustment mechanism seems to be grafted/borrowed from another model engine.  Did Phil Duclos use this set-up on his Flame Lickers?

I love these kind of engines because they are portable, simple to use, no boilers, no compressed-air source, no smelly gas fumes, no noise...nothing but a match, and, you got a working engine to show off.  Everybody wins.

Frank


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 26, 2013)

The only Duclos flame kicker I've seen was a single cylinder.

Many more here with greater knowledge of the sport than me tho.

This book is on my list to purchase:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0941653048/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Canyonman (Apr 26, 2013)

I think Bronx is on the right path.

If we had the "V" angle, a general look at the crankcase, and info on the angles/timing on the Crankshaft; I believe we could replicate the engine.

But if I had my druthers, I'd like the plans.

No sign of the builder yet??

Ken


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## Canyonman (Apr 26, 2013)

On further observation I noted he is not using a crankcase, only a Deck.

So, Deck angle and crankshaft should lead us in the right direction.

If you surf the posted YouTube links after the "show"

There is a Horizontal 4; and a V2 that looks very similar.

Has anyone tried to locate Mr. Josep MaFont?

Ken


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## BronxFigs (Apr 26, 2013)

I tried to find something, anything about J. MaFont, but reached a dead end.

Give a good look at the engine construction.  The frame looks similar to the "Hoglet" set-up, including the V-angle, which looks to be about 60 degrees.  I hate to guess about these important relationships, and geometry.

PLEASE!  Drawings...we need drawings.

Frank/Bronx


EDIT:  Opening sequence on the video states 60 degree V-angle between cylinders.  So the V-angle is solved.  Look at the lifters that work the sliding valves that regulate the flames.  Are the push-rods riding on a cam, or is there some eccentric on the cranks.  I think it's a follower-type setup.

What are those little pieces of metal attached to the tops cylinder heads?  Are these some kind of relief valves?  Are they pushed open by pressure as the pistons rise to TDC?

The more I watch this engine the more I want to make one.


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## BronxFigs (Apr 26, 2013)

Anyone want to speculate about the firing order?  What sequence of power pulses would be most likely on a 60 degree, V-4?

F


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 26, 2013)

johntom.com as stated.  Here is most of it except for the "V-ified" part.

see attachment.  It's an exact copy of the duclos engine.

You can get all the pushrod and eccentric info you want from the uploaded pdf.

Hope this gets you closer, I have never done a fire eater so I'm uselss on the valve advance/retard or whatever that adjustment is. 

View attachment FireEater.pdf


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## Woodster (Apr 27, 2013)

I've now made a couple of flame eaters. The critical thing with the valve/cam seems to be duration and timing. I have found that 110 deg duration, steep sides giving a very quick actuation of the valve, and timing it to close at 30 deg before BDC and open again at 40 deg before TDC work very well, even cold starting with just 1 flick of the flywheel. I've tried various durations and timing and these settings seem to be the sweet spot.


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## BronxFigs (Apr 27, 2013)

Approaching Nirvana.... Link shows construction for very, very, similar engine.  Thanks.

Video shows some kind of ??? "relief valve" on the tops of the 4 cylinder heads...I think.  Can someone explain?  How do they work?

Now we're gettin' somewhere.  But, still no drawings.  Do they exist?

Please!  Firing order information.....

Frank


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## jwcnc1911 (Apr 30, 2013)

I believe this video will give you a better idea of what the builder of that v4 has done:

http://clepz.com/video.php?vid=y_e3yjXSUPs84

And I just thought you might like this:

http://www.getaudiofromvideo.com/videos/flammenfresser-vakuummotor-5-zylinder-sternmotor/


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## BronxFigs (May 1, 2013)

Are  these engines really only curiosities, or, were larger versions ever designed to do useful work?  I can't imagine an open-flame, engine being used as a power source to work machinery in some old, dusty. turn-of-the-century, sweat-shop.  They _had_ to be a fire hazard.

The video links...nice.

Frank


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## Omnimill (Oct 9, 2014)

Digging up an old thread I know, but has anyone got any further with this? I've built a single cylinder Jan Ridders internal valve flame eater but would really like to build a Vee Four. Like others though I really need detailed plans.


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## MarioM (Oct 15, 2014)

Mr Font had built many versions of his engine.....in one, two and four cylinders.....as can be seen in his youtube page.  He does not seem  interested in sharing his plans.

I built one of Duclos, 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iMXJ24BXL4[/ame]

Actually his engines are similar to Duclos but I think are his own design.  It should be nice to be able to get those plans.

I can build from a plan but design one guess will be very hard.  I like his engines.


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## Omnimill (Oct 16, 2014)

That's a shame. It may be though that he does not have nice CAD drawings like Jan Ridders shares with others. Could be he works with paper and pencil.


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## BronxFigs (Oct 19, 2014)

Thanks for all the added information.  Since I first asked the forum members about the drawings for his "Flame-Licker" V-4 engine, I found additional videos of some other engines that this man built...i.e, the 4 Stroke, V2 Glow Motor... and his 4 Stroke, Inline Twin, Glow.

Wonderful engines, beautiful examples of machining, and, built from bar-stock....but, NO DRAWINGS!!!  

*******************************************************************************************

There are far too many dead-ends in the search for drawings in the model-engine world.  This practice of the builders/designers not sharing/selling drawings is a good way to kill a hobby. It discourages rather than encourages.  It's beyond annoying!  

I stopped going to shows like "Cabin Fever Expo" for this very reason.  You walk around, you see a beautifully machined, sometimes a "unique", model-engine, and ask if the drawings can be purchased, and the maker standing behind the table says..."Sorry, no drawings"....  So the secrets of the engine die along with the builder.  Great strategy?  Just saying.


Frank


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## Omnimill (Oct 19, 2014)

It is very frustrating Frank but what can you do? I have to admit though that some folks have asked me for drawings for a few bits of tooling I've made but I often only work from rough sketches which get binned after use so I don't have anything to pass on.

 I may attempt a Vee Twin if I can get my head around the construction...


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## GKNIPP (Oct 23, 2014)

Frank, I agree with you 100%.  It annoys me too from the standpoint that not sharing drawings or information seems like such negative attitude.  Now please understand that when I say sharing the drawings I don't expect them for free as I am willing to Pay their worth.  If they are free I believe it is a generous and great bonus.  It is like some of these builders want to keep their engine this big deep secret and an act of Congress won't make them budge.  I don't fully get it, but.......  Thank you so so much to those who have shared their works on this forum as well as to those who have made their hard work and efforts for salem


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## MarioM (Oct 24, 2014)

Omnimill said:


> It is very frustrating Frank but what can you do? I have to admit though that some folks have asked me for drawings for a few bits of tooling I've made but I often only work from rough sketches which get binned after use so I don't have anything to pass on.
> 
> I may attempt a Vee Twin if I can get my head around the construction...



I have been thinking about  a Vee Twin too.  Guess the difficult part will be the timing between the two....guess you need some theoretic principles to go with.  The engine I built from Phil Duclos is not horizontal.....and runs beautiful, the valve system is very simple and has got a fixed timing, butI do not think it is just a matter of building two and trying to join them......do you understand what I mean.....sorry for my poor English.


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## Omnimill (Oct 24, 2014)

Your English is fine Mario.  I agree, just linking two together without knowing what to do about the timing is beyond me. I can build from plans but designing engines is another matter!


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## Cogsy (Oct 24, 2014)

BronxFigs said:


> You walk around, you see a beautifully machined, sometimes a "unique", model-engine, and ask if the drawings can be purchase, and the maker standing behind the table says..."Sorry, no drawings".... So the secrets of the engine dies along with the builder. Great strategy? Just saying.


 
I doubt I'll ever have the skills required to design an engine (at least not anything worth copying) but I do know that of the various things I have designed and constructed over the years, I completely lack the ability to produce useful plans for any of it.

Even starting with a finished product, it must be an immense task to measure and record every pertinent dimension/radius/clearance etc so it can be reproduced by others. This is evident by the occaisional missing dimensions and inaccuracies/mistakes in published plan sets. I suspect many of the builders of these 'unique' engines don't have the skills to produce accurate, useable plans.

Still others may want to devote the time to creating more engines rather than plan sets - may sound a bit selfish but I know I value all the shop time I can get.


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## MarioM (Oct 29, 2014)

I guess you should have a very special perception  and ability to built an engine out of your mind with simple sketches....to many measurements to put together at the end......or might be wrong.....do not know..


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## Cogsy (Oct 30, 2014)

Again I don't know, I've never done it, but I assume you sketch the major bits and then trial and error determines things like radius's and clearances. I'd also think there'd be a reasonable amount of remaking parts that don't work for whatever reason as well. All I was saying is that just because you can build an engine doesn't necessarily mean you can draw proper plans for it.


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## MarioM (Oct 31, 2014)

Yes......you are right...I was just thinking about.


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