# The Spinster



## zeeprogrammer (Jan 4, 2011)

Well I've got my shop back and my machines adjusted and cleaned.
Time for a project.

It's a Saxony Spinning Wheel (aka Cinderella Wheel).
Hey! It counts! It's a finger-treadle engine and I've seen those on the forum. ;D

I got the plans for a full scale model and spent the holidays drawing a 1/4 scale version.
Paper and pencil...I still can't motivate myself to use a drawing tool on the PC.
I do enough mouse handling at work.

I chose this for a number of reasons:

1) Get more experience (better at machining) without risking a lot of work making a complicated part only to screw it up at the end.
2) Get some experience polishing (I want it shiny shiny).
3) Get more understanding of tolerances and sizes.
4) Make a gift for my daughter whose hobby is spinning (and as a bribe for the killer jams she makes).

The model will be made of aluminum and brass. Cost of materials is about $15.
About a third of that is in the pedal alone because it's brass.
Actual cost is yet to be determined. ;D I ordered several times as much just in case. Okay okay...I was wanting to build up some metal stock too.

mini-zeepster went west to stay with a buddy.
Allow me to introduce the new mini-zeepster.
I call him zeepee.
Don't confuse that with 'zippy'. I've been called that...but she wasn't too upset. ;D

Metal has been ordered. Now we wait.

What's the final goal you ask? Well I could use it to spin some thread and make a new tu-tu.
But I don't do sewing.







Gee zeepee looks a little naked.

P.S. The pic above is just an image I found. The one I'm making doesn't look anything like it. Nothing like it. It never would anyway.


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## tel (Jan 4, 2011)

Geez, that would make a lovely Mrs Tel soother but ... _I see no plans_ :shrug:


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 4, 2011)

Zee plans...

33 parts...some 33 drawings...
Not counting screws, bolts, string, chewing gum, and duct tape.


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## Troutsqueezer (Jan 4, 2011)

It's good to see you're breaking new ground, Zee-ster. It'll be interesting to see how you make the 5" flywheel. 

You might consider keeping a good amount of Borax-type soap handy for the polishing activity. The polishing compound tends to get all over the fingers and hands, depending on the type you use. 

Let's roll!


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks Pat. No problem getting oil and coffee stains on the plans. I worry more about them turning into confetti.

Hey Trout...you're the one I think about when it comes to polishing. Don't be surprised to get peppered with some email asking for help and advice.


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## Foozer (Jan 4, 2011)

A Zeenster? and I thought I picked a hard one to tackle

Will be watching

Robert


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## b.lindsey (Jan 5, 2011)

Nice to see you back in the shop zee. This should make for a nice project and one I'm sure your daughter will love. Those jams must be really really good too 

Bill


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## arnoldb (Jan 5, 2011)

Nice one Carl ;D

Hmmmm... Do you have a potential hubby aligned for the spinster ?

...We share the same sentiments on work time and CAD then, but at least your C-o-C looks a LOT better than mine :big:


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## seagar (Jan 5, 2011)

I like the look of this one,I'll be watching with interest.

Ian (seagar)


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## Maryak (Jan 5, 2011)

Zee,

Now that's original. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## mklotz (Jan 5, 2011)

How are you planning to make the wheel spokes identical?


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks Robert.
Thanks Bill. Yes...the jams are excellent.
Thanks Arnold.
Thanks Ian.
Thanks Marv. I'll have your answer in a moment. ;D

I'll start with the flywheel.
The flywheel has a 1/4 axle.
On either side of the flywheel will be a flange (hub?), each having 2 grub screws.
One screw to a flat on the axle, and one screw that...oops and drat!
That screw was meant to press against the flywheel but that would force the hub away from the flywheel. Hm...maybe I can tap the flywheel and have it screw in instead. I'll think on that...maybe just a pin loctited in...in the meantime...

See Marv? See? I'm learning! Develop the procedure then cut! I'll leave the quality of the procedure to your judgment. ;D

Here's my BTC of the flywheel and flanges...






As you can see (Marv)...there's no 'spokes'. ;D I quote myself from the first post..."P.S. The pic above is just an image I found. The one I'm making doesn't look anything like it. Nothing like it. It never would anyway."

First order of business is to come up with the procedure.
Here's what I'm thinking (I'm telling you all cause there's one step I'm not sure about - not that I'm sure about any of them.)

The flywheel is 3x16 with a 4.5 diameter.

1) Cut a chunk of 1/4 x 5 x 4.5+ of aluminum
2) Chop off the corners
3) Mount on a mill
4) Drill/Ream 0.25 in the center (for the axle)
5) Bore 1/16 (maybe 3/64) a 1/2 diameter around the axle hole
6) Flip and find center
7) Bore 1/16 (maybe 3/64) a 1/2 diameter around the axle hole
8) Make a mandrel
9) Using the mandrel, mount on RT and drill the 8 holes (this is the step I'm less sure about)
10) Using the mandrel (and maybe some tape), mount on lathe
11) Turn to 4.5
12) Turn the groove
13) Round off the tips (file and/or sandpaper and/or thumb...no, not the thumb)
14) Face one side about 1/32
15) Flip and face the other side about 1/32

That means there's about a 1/32 depression, 1/2 round on both sides...but they get covered by the flanges.

The purpose of the depression is to give me enough room so I can face the flywheel down to the hub.

Should I move step 9 (drilling of the spoke holes) to here?

BTC = 'better than cad' ;D

some of you might prefer 'better than crayon'

No doubt some of you will come up with other meanings....jerks. :big:


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## Deanofid (Jan 5, 2011)

Hiya Zee, and welcome to Zeepee.  ;D
Spending time hand drawing should surly have you familiar with all the parts! Should be a fun build.
BTC... Before the Crash? Bite the Cauliflower? Been to California? 

Me and my friend are watching. 

Dean


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## mklotz (Jan 5, 2011)

One of the most distinctive things about a spinning wheel is that spoked flywheel. Holes in a metal disk is going to look too industrial, especially for a jamster who is familiar with the genre.

If you don't want to make turned spokes...

I've seen wheels in der Vaterland where the spokes were long flat pieces of artistically perforated wood, reminiscent of the gingerbread devices one sees on Victorian mansions. Making those would be easy. Superglue together eight pieces of brass shim stock, ventilate on milling machine, separate and, voila, eight identical spokes.

Make the hub of two pieces. One is slotted to accept the ends of the spokes, the other plain. Insert spokes, drop top piece on, silver solder and done. The flywheel rim could be done in two pieces but its probably easier to make one annulus and drill it to accept outboard ends of spokes. Fill the holes with brass wire to make the outer surface smooth for when you cut the V-groove.

Just some thoughts.

It's going to be a cool model and an ideal metal shop project for a female.


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## bearcar1 (Jan 5, 2011)

"I do enough mouse handling at work."  ??? ??? ??? (quote from your opening post)



I wouldn't spread that around too much Zeep, that's how rumors get started you know. ;D

Actually, this is going to be a cool looking project when you are done. I'll be watching these proceedings. It should be a fun build. Good luck Thm:

BC1
Jim


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 5, 2011)

Hi Dean. I know that friend of yours. I hope he's good company but keep an eye on him.

Thanks Marv. Your thoughts on the spokes are excellent. What I'm hoping is that this is 'Version 01.00.00' and if it goes well...that additional versions with enhancements will be made. I had thought about 'real' spokes but decided to keep it simpler for now. But crap...you got me thinking. No...I will resist. Stick to plan.

Thanks Jim. Rumors? I should worry about rumors? What with the tu-tu and the video from that dastardly Rick (black85vette)...nah...I'll take Alfred E. Neuman's philosophy..."What, me worry?"


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## lee9966 (Jan 5, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It's going to be a cool model and an ideal metal shop project for a female.



Hmmmm... I always pictured zee as... never mind.

Lee


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 5, 2011)

If it helps any...picture me as the male version Phyllis Diller.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha!. Ah ha ha ha ha ha!
But heavier...with a tu-tu...and better legs.
Oh...and less hair.
And no makeup. I don't do makeup.
You take me natural or not at all.
 ;D


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## Foozer (Jan 5, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> If it helps any...picture me as the male version Phyllis Diller.
> Ah ha ha ha ha ha!. Ah ha ha ha ha ha!
> But heavier...with a tu-tu...and better legs.
> Oh...and less hair.
> ...



I'm BLIND Blind I tell ya

Was at the shop getting the tires fer the brides car and this real cute as ya please 3 year old said I have Airy Hair, so cute when there young.


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## tel (Jan 6, 2011)

> I'm BLIND Blind I tell ya



Lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky you! It will take me years to get rid of that mental image - if at all, probably scarred me for life!


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## mklotz (Jan 6, 2011)

> I had thought about 'real' spokes but decided to keep it simpler for now. But crap...you got me thinking. No...I will resist. Stick to plan.



You'll be sorry.  I can see it now. Project all done and blinged to the point of eroding the metal. You're sitting there admiring your handiwork and, way in the back of your mind, there's this little voice, "But it would so much more realistic with spokes, just like Marv said."

It's OK though. Just ignore my good advice. Try really, really hard not to think about what I said.

Insert evil chuckle here.


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## Foozer (Jan 6, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You'll be sorry.
> It's OK though. Just ignore my good advice. Try really, really hard not to think about what I said.



He's on it Zee, really would look better with spokes, The nature of the beast just screams "Spokes" You've got the tools, the mental discipline, and plenty of talented folks here to keep ya on course.

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 6, 2011)

Sorry guys (Marv and Robert). There are a few aspects of this project I need to learn and to see working. I don't want to get hung up right away on the flywheel. Keep in mind, it may not even work.

But to your point, I do expect that if it works...I'll be sitting there with a big grin thinking..."oo! oo! How can I make it better?" and the first thought will be the flywheel. Just as you surmised Marv...except for that last bit...'just like Marv said' ;D

Another idea is to make it a two pedal.

So the whole idea is to get a base prototype from which I can (maybe!) do more with. (Most likely I'll get interested in something altogether different.)

As a side note...the flywheel is aluminum...I may need the mass. If I go with spokes...I have no idea whether it would work or not...even if I go to brass. (I'm thinking it's going to work anyway.)

As for you tel..."Methinks you doth protest too much". I'm flattered. ;D


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## tel (Jan 6, 2011)

oh: Must 'ave been the 5th 'lucky' that did it, I knew I should 'ave gone with 4.


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## seagar (Jan 6, 2011)

.......then hook it up to a steam engine !!!!! *beer*
 Ian(seagar)


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 8, 2011)

Some 'yippee' and some 'fooey'...

But before I get started...some qualifiers...

I am not a machinist and I have very little experience. Anyone reading my thread should understand that I may not be doing things the right way or the best way...but hopefully not an unsafe way.

Anyway...overall things went well. Better than I thought it would actually.

Took a hunk of 1/4 by 5 and chopped off about 4 1/2. Then chopped off the corners. Drilled and reamed the center for 1/4" then milled 1/2" about 1/16 deep. Flipped it and milled another 1/2" round about 1/16 deep.







Then I took a 3/8 and turned about 1/8 of it down to 1/4. Tapped it for 6-32. Took a 1 1/4 round (biggest I had), drilled it to 3/8 and faced both sids.
Took a 1/2 round and made a 1/32 washer.
Then mounted the plate.

The idea was that the 1 1/4 round would help give some support to the wheel while I turned it instead of placing the wheel straight up against the chuck jaws.

This shot shows the 1/14.






This shot shows the 6-32 through the washer into the 3/8 round.






This shot shows the rim turned down. That went pretty well.






One side faced. A little difficult. Rang like a bell and had some bad grooving. Playing with speed and feed made it better. Sanding will take care of it.






Here's where things went awry. Unfortunately the pictures came out pretty fuzzy. This next one shows the grove along the rim. It looks good and the sides are even. But in fact, the plate wasn't true and when you look 180 degrees away, the left rim is quite thin.






Basically, when I flipped the plate around, it was no longer true. I don't know what I could have done to help. The 1 1/4 collar was supposed to help (and maybe it did). Certainly it would have been better to use a bigger collar and give more support to the plate but that wouldn't have helped keep it true.

Still, I'm pretty happy with the results...I had expected much worse or at least more trouble. The next round (if/when) should be better. But this lets me continue.

It's quite possible my chuck isn't running true and the more distance (radially) the more this would be accentuated. I'm 2 1/4" away from center. The error would be on the order of 0.4 degree not counting whatever the collar contributed. So to some extent I'm not surprised.

One question I would have...
As you know I'm going to drill holes around the center. Would you bling the flywheel first? I'm thinking I can shiny it up on the lathe but having holes around the center would make it difficult. I thought I might bling it first then put some sticky paper on it to protect it...then drill the holes.

Oh...as for the possibility of the wheel wobbling on the axle...I'm not too worried about that. The hub (flange) on either side of it should prevent that. I just needed the 1/4 center to seat it on the axle. It doesn't matter if it's thin. What's important is that the wheel is flat. The question for me is whether a built-up wheel would be better.

Thanks for looking.


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## Foozer (Jan 8, 2011)

Thin stuff, sure there is a way other than what I'm thinking. Once the material is rounded I'd switch to a, lord I'm using one and cant think of its name, a backplate? faceplate 6 inch dia and skimmed over for flatness. Slap on one of them sticky sand disk and use the tail stock center to hold the material against the sandpaper while facing the surface(s). Full support should keep the material from flexing.

Bogs post about flywheels, worth the read
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=871.msg6640#msg6640


Robert


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## Seanol (Jan 8, 2011)

Zee,
I have seen posts where you just put the plate against the chuck and bring a live center up to the plate and friction turn it. Should you need more umph you can use double sided tape.

What I think happened is that the hole had enough clearance for the bolt so it probably had a small amount of run out.

If you go the friction turning way you will want to get closer to a circle on the bandsaw. It will help with the interrupted cut.

Good luck,
Sean


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## Troutsqueezer (Jan 8, 2011)

As for the bling before drilling, Zee; if you drill then bling, the polishing wheel will tear (maybe not the right word) the metal away from the side of the drill hole that the polishing wheel (sisal/spiral type) goes up against. Hmm....need a better way to describe that. One side of the hole will show a dip in metal thickness in the direction the polish wheel is turning. Anytime you go up against an edge with the polishing wheel that edge will wear unevenly against the wheel compared to the flatter part of the work piece. If you use a harder felt wheel its less likely to have that affect. Experimentation might be in order. 

I would polish and drill afterward.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks Robert and Sean. The reason I didn't want to use a dead/live center to hold the plate against the chuck (I have used that method before) was that I didn't think I would get the clearance I needed to face the plate. If you look at the 2nd to last picture you can see that the tool post would have collided with the center.

Maybe there was another way...but as it was...I had just enough travel to get the cutter to move from 2.25 down to 0.5. Even then, on my first try I bumped into the screw and had to readjust my cross slide and tool holder.

I should have spent more time verifying that the faced side was true and tried to adjust it. I should also have checked to see if the faces of the chuck jaws were square and even to each other.

Thanks for the link Robert. Very interesting.

Thanks Trout...that's exactly what I was worried about. I'll try polishing first.

The wheel turned out to be a simpler job than I'd thought. If the project goes well then another wheel (maybe even a different type ;D ) is likely.


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## Foozer (Jan 9, 2011)

Have had that out of room facing problem, what I did, and it did make me a tad nervous (safety disclaimer) was to take a piece of 3/8 round stock 'bout 3 inches long. put a 60 degree point on one end and center drilled the other. Set that between the stock to be faced and the live center, which in effect moved the live center to the right 3 inches to give me the room needed. Its one of those you hold the nail and Ill swing the hammer, but it worked.

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

Nifty idea Robert and would make me nervous too.

But what I mean is that in order to cut out at 2.25", I had to turn the tool post and set the cutter on the side closest to me. That means the tool post holder crosses the center axis of the chuck as I move the cutter from the rim to the center.


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## ozzie46 (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi Zee. 

 Interesting choice of a project. Us wannabes should learn a thing or 2 here. Thanks again. You have a knack for upping the learning quotient in your posts,

 Ron


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## bearcar1 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ah, blame it on the mouse Zeep, he'll never be able to rebut the accusation anyway. :big: You may want to consider the fact that if you bling up the part first and then go back and drill holes in it, you are running the risk of scarring up what you already have polished etc. Perhaps it would be a better idea to do all the machine work and then sit down for a serious fireside polishing session. (ahem) .... you, the piece, some wine, the mrs., the mouse, more wine .... ah yes, a good time. :big: :big: 

 Too bad about the plate getting skewed when you changed sides :-[ Foozer I think has the right idea about the usage of a faceplate but like so many things in this sport, there are numerous ways of accomplishing the same ends, it's just a matter of what one has available on hand at the time. You're off to a good start at least and I'm sure the finished product will have rewarded us all with entertainment and educational value. Carry on!!

BC1
Jim


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## shred (Jan 9, 2011)

Seanol  said:
			
		

> Zee,
> I have seen posts where you just put the plate against the chuck and bring a live center up to the plate and friction turn it. Should you need more umph you can use double sided tape.
> 
> What I think happened is that the hole had enough clearance for the bolt so it probably had a small amount of run out.


Agree-- bolts are not precision locating devices, even with a very close-fit hole. Took me a few to learn that.


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## Foozer (Jan 9, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Nifty idea Robert and would make me nervous too.
> 
> But what I mean is that in order to cut out at 2.25", I had to turn the tool post and set the cutter on the side closest to me. That means the tool post holder crosses the center axis of the chuck as I move the cutter from the rim to the center.



What type of tool-holder did the lathe originally come with. I use the rocker post when cross slide travel range is at a premium. More than once have I applied the "Fudge!" language when tool travel ran out afore part dimension. 

Flywheel V2 coming up?

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks Ron. It's good to know it has some value.

Thanks Jim. You've described what should be an excellent time. Careful with the wording there. :big:

I have a faceplate but have never used it. (I was scared but I'm a tad less scared now.)

Here's the spindle...






The yarn or thread is inserted into the orifice. It's at the bottom of the spindle and you can't see it.

The wide diameter section is where you insert a little wire to retrieve the yarn that was inserted into the orifice.

The upper (fine) thread will be used to hold the flyer.

The bottom (coarse) thread is used to hold the drive pulley. It looks like I only have 2 or 3 threads so a finer thread would have been better. I can loctite if necessary.

A couple of other changes...

The upper (fine) thread was originally 8-32. But such a die won't clear the 1/8 rod that extends from the thread. So I went with 10-32 and am hoping I don't have to enlarge the flyer. I don't think I will.

For the same reason, the 1/4-20 thread meant I had to reduce the diameter of the rod leading up to it from 13/64 to 11/64. But that still works fine. I had chosen 13/64 for more meat around the orifice but it turns out I have plenty.

Still needs to be blinged but like most of the parts I have to make...that'll be towards the end.

I have difficulty understanding (i.e. seeing and feeling) how the size of a part will turn out...even if the plans are to scale. This model is turning out a bit bigger than I'd thought. But that's okay too.

Just saw your post shred. Thanks.

There wouldn't have to be much error at all to result in some significant error at the rim of the wheel. The rim is 2.25 inches out and I was trying to cut a 2/16 groove out of 3/16...leaving 1/32 for each rim.

The error could be in several places. If the collar wasn't faced true, if the milling I did on the flywheel for space wasn't true, if I had a bit of swarf someplace...that would have been sufficient.

I don't think it was a good way to go. Worth a try...learned some things...and it was fun...but if I repeat this type of flywheel (quiet Marv ;D) then I need a much better method.

Geez...now Robert has posted while I'm writing this. ;D

It's a QCTP. I don't know what a 'rocker post' is. The original holder was that kind that look like square plates with bolts around the perimeter.

We'll see about V2 Flywheel sometime down the road. ;D


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

Rats. I was looking at the picture and realized a major boo-boo. The large diameter section with the hole in it is 5/16 diameter. It's supposed to be 5/16 long too. But it's about an 1/8 too long. Hm...same length as the thread for the drive pulley....hm.

Ah well. Easily fixed without having to redo the entire part.

Could even modify the maiden and leave the spindle as is.
Nah.

The maiden...like all maidens...shall be perfect. ;D

This project has too many opportunities for gutter-talk. I should just move there.


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## hobby (Jan 9, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> One side faced. A little difficult. Rang like a bell and had some bad grooving. Playing with speed and feed made it better. Sanding will take care of it.



I like the idea of turning the compound slide, so as to reach and machine the side of the disk.

That should make for a more rigid setup, then traversing the compound from the front.

Nice project choice, and nice work on your parts so far.


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## Foozer (Jan 9, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> It's a QCTP. I don't know what a 'rocker post' is.



Don't want to HJ your thread, Rocker or lantern post, same same. In the mock up photos the faceplate is 6 inches in diameter. using the lantern toolpost is the only way i can skim the surface. To do your flywheel which is about as large a diameter that this lathe could manage using a tailstock center would require some shifting of the cross slide, hence the reduction of working area. It may say 6 inch but some times 4 inch is more than she can handle.

Ya I know

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks very much hobby. Much appreciated.

Thanks Robert. It hadn't occurred to me to think about the other tool post. I'll look at that.

In the meantime I've realized two more (well 1 really) boo-boos.
The hole going through the spindle needs to be chamfered. Otherwise the yarn/thread coming through it can snag.
Similarly, the orifice and front maiden needs the same.

I'm already thinking the scale can be 1/8 instead of 1/4. But that would make for a very small bobbin with a 1/16 through hole.
The hooks on the flyer would be fun too. The holes on the spindle would have to be 1/16 too.
Big problem might be the various screws.

Hm...not too late to think about this. I'll look at the plans when I get home.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 9, 2011)

So I got home and looked at the plans.
The biggest issue is the spindle.

The drive pulley would be 3/8 diameter and 1/16 thick. Maybe make it an integral part of the spindle but that means turning 3/8 down to 1/16 for the rod. The rod would be about 3/4 long...so maybe not bad.

But the flyer would be 1/8 square and the rod goes through it. Original plan was to thread the flyer on but that's just too small. A press fit might be the way to go.

The bigger issue is having something to hold onto while turning the orifice end. The center part is 5/32 round by 5/32 long. Kind of small. Don't have a collet for the lathe and I'm wondering if that's enough to hold onto anyway.

I could make my own collet...haven't had the best luck doing that...and having enough material to grab might still be an issue.

Worth a go.

Drat. Now I'm excited to make it smaller. It would be much cooler...more miniature and less toyish.

This is fun.

But it's time for my 'thinking juice' and I'm starting to ramble.

'go' will have to wait.


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## fcheslop (Jan 9, 2011)

Stick to you're guns on that fly wheel don't let that little niggling doubt win :big:
best of luck with the build was thinking about it today seeing one of my fathers spinning wheels at my mothers
best wishes Frazer


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## Deanofid (Jan 9, 2011)

I like the spindle part, Zee. Even if you end up having to re-do it, still looks neat.

For turning big flat things, here is something that may make it easier. Called a super glue arbor:







I use these frequently for turning gear blanks, and other largish flat things that are other wise hard to grip. Each of these has two diameters, giving me options of a 1.25", 1.5", 2" and 2.5" faces for different sized blanks. 
The face of each has a number of grooves turned in which lets the super glue cure quickly. Each also has a small bore and a set screw going into that bore. A small shop made center can be run into the bore to aid in centering a work piece.
In use, a few dots of super glue are spotted around the rings of the chosen face, and the work piece is held against the arbor while the arbor is held in the chuck. To release the glue after the work is done, gentle heating with a propane torch does it. Take care not to vaporize the glue. Then the residue can be cleaned off with acetone.

These are equivalent to a face plate, but being smaller, you can still easily do work on the OD of your piece.

Dean


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks Frazer. I got old guns but I'll try.

Thanks Dean. Nice idea but the faces are a bit large. I needed 1/2".

Question about press fit.

I may need to press fit a couple of small parts together. Brass on brass...maybe aluminum on brass.

Let's say I want to press fit a part that has a hole that measures 0.625 (1/16). What would the tolerance be on the mating part? 0.625 + 0.0005?

Would that be true if the parts were 0.125?

I looked at the plans for the loco. They called out 0.94 + 0.0005 for the piston rod. What was interesting was that the piston and rod end were called out at 0.94 -0.000 +0.002.

I'm guessing that if they had been drilled/reamed to 0.942 then the piston would need to be 0.9425 for a press fit.

While I'm here...if I go to 1/8 scale instead of 1/4...then the hooks for the flyer are really tiny. I figure on taking some spring from a pen and cutting off some bits that would form a partial eyelet. Think of the shape of a question mark. How to put them into the legs of the flyer? It would take a tiny tiny drill I know, but press fitting I'm thinking won't work. Maybe loctite...or better...superglue? I'll experiment...but wondered if anyone worked this small.

Thanks again!


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## Foozer (Jan 10, 2011)

For your Spinner? Loctite is your friend, close fit, dab of the magic stuff and done. 

Looked round site and found some info on fits http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=11875.msg128907;topicseen#msg128907 

Robert


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## fcheslop (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi Zee ,I usually work on one thou to the inch for press fits
best wishes Frazer


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## mklotz (Jan 11, 2011)

Zee,

1/16 = 0.625" ?? Wanna try that one again?

For your benefit (and that of others who might be reading this), there's a program on my page called, appropriately enough, FITS, which will answer questions like this for eleven classes of fits. Here's a sample run of your case...


SHAFT/HOLE FIT COMPUTATIONS

Number of data items read = 11
 1 Shrink
 2 Force
 3 Drive
 4 Push
 5 Slide
 6 Precision Running
 7 Close Running
 8 Normal Running
 9 Easy Running
10 Small Clearance
11 Large Clearance

Fit desired [4] ?
Nominal diameter of shaft [1 in] ? 0.0625

Diameter of shaft for Push Fit = 0.06233 in


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## bearcar1 (Jan 11, 2011)

Zee here is a spreadsheet that I believe one of the members here put together that covers the various clearances of mating parts. I've never had reason to use it as yet but keep it in the archives just the same. 

BC1
Jim



View attachment fits.xls


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## Deanofid (Jan 11, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Dean. Nice idea but the faces are a bit large. I needed 1/2".


 
Half inch? I was talking about if you had to re-make or re-work the wheel, Zee. It looks to be well over 1/2".  

I think Marv has a good program for your fits. Just to address your specific size question, .0625" + .0005" for a press into a 1/16" hole will work, assuming the hole is really 1/16" (.0625").
If you plan to drill and ream the hole to hit size, you will probably want to do a couple of test pins in scrap of a similar material to allow that the reamer may cut a little over size. Means you may have to experiment on a few sizes of pins to press into the test hole.

I would probably just Loctite the thing.


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## mklotz (Jan 11, 2011)

I'll echo Dean here and recommend Loctite as well. Even if you can get the hole and pin size dead nuts on you've still got the problem of driving/pressing the pin home. With a pin that small, bending/deforming it is almost guaranteed.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks Robert, Frazer, Marv, and Dean.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> 1/16 = 0.625" ?? Wanna try that one again?



Oops. I was stuck in the 10x universe. I sometimes go there and daydream about when I was younger...and things worked...and nothing had shrunk yet.

Right. Back to reality. 0.0625.

Thanks for the FITS Marv.

I'm with you all when it comes to the Loctite.

Dean...I was wondering how I would do the facing from 2.25" from center down to less than .375 from center.

Wait...no I'm good...I'm still in the 1x universe. Sigh.


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## Deanofid (Jan 12, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Dean...I was wondering how I would do the facing from 2.25" from center down to less than .375 from center.
> 
> Wait...no I'm good...I'm still in the 1x universe. Sigh.



Since I'm not sure which universe I'm stuck in, this may not make any sense. If you use something like those super glue arbors, you can face from the OD right down to dead center of the piece.  It's glued to the arbor so you don't have a center from the tail stock in the way. Does that make sense?

Maybe this will help, (or I'm barking up the wrong galaxy..).


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 12, 2011)

Ah thanks Dean. That helps a lot. I understand now.
For whatever reason, I thought one of them was on the cutter side.


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## kustomkb (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Carl,

Just want to say I think this build is a great Idea and you have done some nice work.
I'll be following along.

Cheers.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks Kevin.

The proof will be in the 'putting it into practice' ;D


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm still struggling with whether or not to stay with this scale or go smaller.
In any case, there are several pretty small parts and I'm thinking I could use a set of soft jaws for the milling vise.

I figure on milling the side faces, mounting it, face it, flip it and and then face it and mill a small ledge. And maybe that's not the right procedure.

I don't know how to place the mounting holes.

I looked around for some threads on making them but didn't find it.
If anyone has a quick link I'd appreciate it.

I'm pretty sure I'm going smaller. Then I can commiserate. :big:


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## Foozer (Jan 17, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm still struggling with whether or not to stay with this scale or go smaller.
> In any case, there are several pretty small parts and I'm thinking I could use a set of soft jaws for the milling vise.
> 
> I figure on milling the side faces, mounting it, face it, flip it and and then face it and mill a small ledge. And maybe that's not the right procedure.



Universe 10X and wondering at the first moment of the Big Bang where laws of physics were non existent, speed was infinite, mass zero negative, all countered by our law bound reality. . .  What Piece(s) are you thinking of? Goes from plural, (soft jaws) to singular (it). Way to early for me to be confused, thats an after lunch affair.

Robert


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## bearcar1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Zee', I'd think it might be easier for you (?) to make your model the scale you started with in order to get the bugs worked out and then move on to the task of downsizing the beast once the larger version has been perfected. 

Spindles! .... yes!.... must have spindles! he says, mmm? 

BC1
Jim


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## tel (Jan 17, 2011)

Wot Jim said - do both! And when you're done, take the smaller one and scale it down by half and ......


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 17, 2011)

Hey Robert. To give you an idea, if I scale it down, the uprights (holding the spinning wheel) are 3/32 x 7/32 x 1 and 35/64. The crank becomes 5/64 x 7/32 x about 5/16.

Hey Jim and Tel. I hear what you're saying...that's in part why I hesitate to go smaller. Still...

In any case, some soft jaws for the vise would be good to have.



			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> in order to get the bugs worked out



'bugs'? Is that what they're called in this hobby?
I get enough of bugs at work.


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## Foozer (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh NO too small, stick with the larger version, get that one hammered out then try for the little sister.

Robert


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## bearcar1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Drat!


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks guys. You've helped me make up my mind. ;D


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 5, 2011)

Shop time is virtually non-existent and machining has come to a crawl.
It took nearly two weeks just to make a couple of soft jaws for my vise.

I'd had hopes that with the new year and new project (at work) I'd start having some time. But I'm still putting in weekend hours and business travels are becoming more frequent. I was out of the country the past week and wasn't even able to get on the forum. The company is on a push for new products by end of year. Good news in the scheme of things (employment) but it's going to be costly in time and stress.

Even though I've been married for 35 years...what little time I have at home I like to spend with warm soft things rather than hard cold metal. Or think of it this way...You guys? Or her? (I admit one of you makes the choice difficult.)

When I can, I'll pop in with a part. This hobby isn't going away for me. And the tu-tu is protected from moths.

Five years ago I told people I was retiring in 12 years. I'm still retiring in 12 years. :big:

Who knows when I can come back to this project...in the meantime I end with how many of my posts begin...

Rats rats and crap.
Sigh.


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## mklotz (Feb 5, 2011)

Hey, Zee, concerning retirement... You really want to take a look at the table in this article...

http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/coe/gutub/english_misc/retire1.htm

Retire at 55, live to 83

Retire at 65, live to 67

I retired on my 55th birthday (literally) and if I don't make it to 83 I'm going to sue.


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## Foozer (Feb 5, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Even though I've been married for 35 years...what little time I have at home I like to spend with warm soft things rather than hard cold metal.
> 
> Five years ago I told people I was retiring in 12 years. I'm still retiring in 12 years. :big:
> 
> Sigh.



35 years? Good for you, my folks still at it after 58 years, hmm, thats how old I am, we wont discuss the short over lap period, me I've gotten to the point of "There's my Future Ex Wife" Only thing I kept from the first one was the kids, so a heartfelt :bow: to you.

But after 35 years still warm and fuzzy? Oh boy you got it bad.

As Marvs chart shows, retire, get the house paid for and just do it. I did at 55, actually took a pre-retirement leave of absence at 54. Sure the income drops, you adjust. Pop retired at 50 and is now pushing 87, still flirts with the ladys and ducking Moms watchful eye;

Retire and the warm and fuzzy will go away. Nothing better to motivate one into a hobby is to actually spend day after day, week after week, month after month with the lovely bride, Oh Lord what have I done. . . 

Robert


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## Deanofid (Feb 5, 2011)

Get retired, Zee! Someone else needs that job. ; )

I retired early, too. Worked 6.something days a week for decades. I'd rather have little money and
time to use it doing what I like than a bunch of money in the bank and be dead. 

Whatever, you know when you've got it good with the warm one at home. Many men would say
you have it all when looking from that perspective!


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 6, 2011)

That's an interesting article Marv. It seems incomplete though. I wonder how many of those people who continue to work, work because that's all they have or know how to do. One of my great fears was retiring and not having a hobby or interest. That's why two years ago I made a concerted effort to find or develop additional interests. After creating lists of hobbies, interests, and childhood dreams...machining popped out as a 'common thread'.

My work can be stressful and long hours are sometimes called for...but I thoroughly enjoy my job (embedded programming). It too was an interest I developed in high school when keypunch machines became available and then robots. I think that's another aspect missing in the study. Do you like your job?

One other aspect that needs mentioning is being alone. I haven't seen a study but I suspect people who lose a long time spouse don't last long themselves. At least those who don't have many other relationships such as church, volunteering, etc. (A personal worry of mine for my parents.) I think forums such as this one can actually contribute to one's longevity by providing relationships and common interests. (Although some of the awesome work on this forum might give me a heart attack.)

Point is...gotta stay busy.

But just in case...could I have the name of your lawyer?

Robert and Dean. A good suggestion but not my decision to make. ;D

The company I work for has a set of principles by which they operate. One of them (to paraphrase) is 'profit means freedom'. Or to paraphrase further...having some money so my wife can pursue her interests...means I can pursue mine. :big:

Dean...Yes. With respect to my family...I'm a fortunate man. As I've said before...a man...but not a manly man. I still need a grill, lawn tractor, and bowling ball. (But son-in-law's father gave us an old bowling ball for Christmas. Half a bowling ball is progress. But it's in son-in-law's possession. Now that I think of it, son-in-law also has a lawn tractor and grill. This is not good.)


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## Foozer (Feb 6, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of those people who continue to work, work because that's all they have or know how to do.



Seems that us males form self worth thru the job, the hunter that provides not only for his own family but also for those less fortunate is respected. Now to balance that against bonehead pride, never said us dogs in the pack were smart.



> One other aspect that needs mentioning is being alone. I haven't seen a study but I suspect people who lose a long time spouse don't last long themselves.



Nothing should be so important, so dependant upon, that you can not live without it.
Easy statement, hard reality.



> Robert and Dean. A good suggestion but not my decision to make. ;D



Yes it is



> The company I work for has a set of principles by which they operate. One of them (to paraphrase) is 'profit means freedom'.



Your labors, their profit, your working weekend, their Tee time. I know, I know, but the time comes when it a "So long and thanks for all the Fish!" is due.



> With respect to my family...I'm a fortunate man.



You've hung in there for all this time, your right up there with the best of em, and ya you don't like the pat on the back so you turn to humour in your responses. Its a give away.

Life will provide for your needs, wont give you what you want, well sometimes, but point is too many confuse Needs and Wants. I want a lot of things but have everything I need.

Now to get this back on subject Hows the Spinster doing?

Robert


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 6, 2011)

Just last Friday, the wife and I met for dinner at a local restaurant and I was telling her that I was still sharp enough to ascertain that I had lost the sharpness I had when I was 30. I described how it was becoming more and more difficult to stay on the cutting edge of developments in chip technology at my place of employment (Intel Corp.). Most of my coworkers are in their 30's and they thrive in the fast-paced, ever-changing environment. I'm doing well to remember where I stored the information I might be needing at some future point. She assured me that she thought those "kids" had nothing on me but I knew better. Finishing the conversation, I told her I will be very glad when I retire beginning of next year (she always tries to convince me to work until 65 but I shot that notion down from the git). 

Reading the article that Marv links to only reinforces what I already suspected. I showed it to the wife. She reminded me of the old saying I'm fond of reciting: There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. This time, I'm sticking with the statistics. Thm:


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## Deanofid (Feb 6, 2011)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> As I've said before...a man...but not a manly man. I still need a grill, lawn tractor, and bowling ball.



That junk doesn't make you a manly man! The lawn tractor is just a machine to let men mow the lawn 
and drink beer at the same time. The grill is just a thing to let men cook and drink beer at the same time.
The bowling ball is... stupid, and another beer drinking prop.

Heck, I go and kill my own food now and then. Blood up to the shoulders gutting large four legged
creatures. That doesn't make a "manly man" either. That just means I don't have to go to the meat
counter at the supermarket, (and one can drink beer at the same time).

You're all the man your wife says you are. If she's happy, I reckon you've done your bit for the manly men.


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## Foozer (Feb 6, 2011)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> You're all the man your wife says you are.



Thats Right!, The Bride always tells me what a Good Man I am as I do the dishes, of course she mispronounces Man, from her lips it comes out as boy. 

Self Delusion, tis a wonderful thing.

Hows the spinster ?

Robert


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 6, 2011)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> You're all the man your wife says you are.



An assumption! :big:

And Robert...sometimes it's better to be the 'boy'.

T's pronunciation usually comes out as 'idiot'. ;D I can live with that.

As for decisions...when it affects the family...it's a family decision.

The spinster...gotta fix the soft jaws. I realized tonight it will be easy. I had cut a groove for a step using a 1/8" mill then realized some of the parts are only 1/8". Might be difficult to hold. All I have to do (isn't there a thread somewhere about last words?) is mill down the faces a bit.

Have no idea when I'll get to it. I'm in product development hell right now.

Trout...don't short change experience. We've got some young'uns at work and hiring more. Being the gray-back has advantages. I get to make the decisions. ;D

Experience tells you when to side-step. And if you can't run faster than the other guy when chased by a bear...you learn how to trip them.


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 7, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Hey, Zee, concerning retirement... You really want to take a look at the table in this article...
> 
> http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/coe/gutub/english_misc/retire1.htm



Dang Internet. Surf around long enough and stuff like this pops up. :big:

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/empinfo/benefits/pension/seminars/Rumor.pdf

Sorry Zee, I know this has nothing to do with a spinning wheel but we're just keeping the thread alive until you get back to business.


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## Foozer (Feb 7, 2011)

Thats why I left Boeing at 55, too many co-workers dying on the job. Now I worked body structures so shooting thousands of 1/4 inch rivets weekly, trying to contort an old decrepit body into places a 20 year old would baulk at, not to mention the perils of constant exposure to ketone (fingers are still kinda tore up) doesn't exactly lead to a long and healthy life.

That chart tho, sure reminds me of the "Flavor of the Day" speeches they were so fond of giving.

I do remember the first few months after retirement thinking "No wonder people die so soon after retirement at 65. So wound up from the work routine, that the transition to a new day to day was hard on the body. Wide awake, wide asleep, jittery, depressed, which way is up? Took a good 6 months for the new routine of ducking the bride to settle in.

Robert


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## seagar (Feb 7, 2011)

Retirement is the best job I ever had.I had to have 2 heart attacks to make me realize it was time to retire ,now life is great .

Ian(seagar)


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 25, 2011)

:shrug:  stickpoke th_wwp *knuppel2*


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 3, 2011)

Hi everyone!

I don't mean to bubble this old topic up but it seems a reasonable place to get back in touch with everyone.

I can't believe it's been over 3 months. This topic began with, and I quote...

"Well I've got my shop back and my machines adjusted and cleaned.
Time for a project."

What a lie. The machines have been under wraps for some time now...and it still doesn't look like I'll be touching them soon.

Some of you know why I dropped out of sight for while. It was a combination of medical and job issues. The medical stuff is finally getting straightened out. A little procedure in a couple of weeks and I should be good to go. It's not good to have a stricture in a bile duct.

Unfortunately, the job issues won't go away for at least 6, if not 9 months. I go to Mexico to visit part of our development team every month. (The food is good and the people great.) And we have a major show to meet in January. I pretty much work every weekend. Sorry guys...it may be a while before I can break out the tu-tu.

And then there is 'T'. Who know who she is. The 'when can you do this' list never shortens. She's got me going on vacation in September and tells me it will be good therapy. Well...we know what therapy is good for us don't we?

Having a job is great...having no life is not. But the money will keep me in machining when this is over and that's why (in part of course) I do it.

In any case, I sure hope I have at least some time to catch up with everyone's builds and posts. But give me a while. And forgive me if I miss anyone. And forgive me for being lax. Yeah yeah...let's just say "forgive me for being me...as we all do for any one". ;D 

Ahhhhh....it sure feels good.

Time to refill my jelly jar.


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## Foozer (Jul 3, 2011)

Good to see ya back, heck, might even tip up a glass to your home coming


Robert


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## arnoldb (Jul 3, 2011)

;D Zee, you're *unconditionally* forgiven IMHO ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


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## ozzie46 (Jul 3, 2011)

Zee! Howdy bud. Nice to see you back for a spell.

 Get the medical stuff fixed and get back in the shop.  stickpoke

 Ron


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## mklotz (Jul 3, 2011)

Welcome back, Zee. Bile buildup, huh? My wife often accuses me of that condition but, unlike you, I have no medical excuse. With me it's just pure crystallized cynicism.

Anyway, it's great to have you back. I'll be looking forward to a bit of verbal fencing interlaced with machining.


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## ksouers (Jul 3, 2011)

Hey Zee!!!

Welcome back. Sorry to hear about the medical problems. That is no fun at all.

Also sorry to hear about the workload. I'm in a similar situation. Had a bunch of computers from a sister company dumped in my lap when all the system admins decided to up a leave in very close time. 6 to 9 months, that's what "they" keep telling me as well...

Anyway, welcome back.


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## Maryak (Jul 3, 2011)

Welcome back Zee

Best Regards
Bob


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## Troutsqueezer (Jul 4, 2011)

I knew you'd be gone for awhile Zeep, but after some time passed and you hadn't checked in I thought maybe you were caught in a Tsunami or a tornado or maybe even had a new hobby like Keeping Up With the Kardashians.

Six to nine months, huh? That falls right into the time frame for my retirement from the working life. Then I'll have more time as well to peruse this forum and see if I can't totally corrupt it.   Thm:


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## ttrikalin (Jul 4, 2011)

Good to hear form you, Zee! Hope the medical and other issues will be resolved for the best. 

Take care, 
tom in MA


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks very much everyone.

It sure is (a very enjoyable) chore trying to catch up on things.
Looks like there are several new members. (We won't mention the possibility that I just don't remember all of you.)

Lots of good stuff going on!!


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## steamer (Jul 4, 2011)

Welcome Back Zee.....good to hear from ya!

Dave


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## Deanofid (Jul 6, 2011)

'

It's about time, my friend! So good to see your happy little face up on the board again.

Glad you'll be getting that plumbing problem fixed. I know it's been giving you the biz.
(If you'd kept on that M&M diet like I toldja, it would have cleared up on its own.) ; )

Welcome back, Zeep!

Dean


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## lazylathe (Jul 6, 2011)

Welcome back Zee!!! ;D

Great to hear that you are back around again!!!

Andrew


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## compspecial (Jul 6, 2011)

Its great to have you back Zee, we were worried about ya! Hope you get all your medical problems fixed soon
                  Stew


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks again everyone. Very much appreciated.

Time is flying. I'd meant to try and get on every day...at least for a half hour...and here it is two days gone already.

So much to read. So many nifty projects.

Oh Dean! Don't you have some email to read?


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## larry1 (Jul 6, 2011)

Zee, Really great to hear from you again, glad everything is looking good. larry


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