# Newest project--A Flyball Governor



## Brian Rupnow (Nov 29, 2008)

This will be my interpretation of a Muncaster flyball governor.


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## crankshafter (Nov 29, 2008)

Brian.
Your my man :big: when will it be finished and up running? With your progress I assume to morrow night ;D.
 :bow: CS


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## ChooChooMike (Nov 29, 2008)

Geeeeez, Brian, you are sure one productive guy !! Keep going !!


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## tel (Nov 29, 2008)

;D ;D ;D I see you've allowed for a spring!


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## Bernd (Nov 29, 2008)

Brian,

Do you actually plan on controlling the speed of the engine with the governor or is it just cosmetic? I'm interested to see if this will work on a model. Reason I ask is I just got a book from Lindsay about Steam Engine Governors and from what I've read so far there's quite a bit of math involved in designing one to fit a particular engine.

regards,
Bernd


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

Bernd  said:
			
		

> Brian,
> 
> Do you actually plan on controlling the speed of the engine with the governor or is it just cosmetic? I'm interested to see if this will work on a model. Reason I ask is I just got a book from Lindsay about Steam Engine Governors and from what I've read so far there's quite a bit of math involved in designing one to fit a particular engine.
> 
> ...



I do indeed plan on using it to control the speed of the engine,


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## kvom (Nov 30, 2008)

In looking at the plan and dredging up recollections of college physics, it seems that the main issue is balancing the weight of the balls with the strength of the spring, plus regulating the linkage to the throttle.

Obviously the throttle should be completely closed when the balls are fully extended horizontally and open when the balls are at the lowest position.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

I think I'll start with this peice 

View attachment Part3.PDF


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 30, 2008)

> there's quite a bit of math involved in designing one to fit a particular engine.


I was thinking the same thing. Not that i am worried about brian and the math. 
Don Sandler has working ones of that type on several of his engines the governor is only about the size of an American 1 cent piece. 
Tin


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## crankshafter (Nov 30, 2008)

Brian.
Looking great.
Oh my... wish I have had a tiny bit of your CAD- skills :
CS


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

Chuck F has just volunteered me a couple of brass balls. Thanks a million, Chuck. ---The brass monkey is safe again for a while.---Brian


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## tel (Nov 30, 2008)

crankshafter  said:
			
		

> Brian.
> Looking great.
> Oh my... wish I have had a tiny bit of your CAD- skills :
> CS



I agree CS, brilliant work - he just doesn't like drawing springs


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## mklotz (Nov 30, 2008)

The math is pretty straightforward...

http://www.hep.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/governor.pdf


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

Man, this thing is going to be tiny. I got this far with the top peice, and had to quit because I don't have a 3/32" reamer, nor the drill that goes with it. I will buy one tomorrow. The extra long stem on the bottom is just there to give me something to hold onto in my mill. I started out with a peice of 1/2" cold rolled round rod.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

Looks like this peice will be next---


View attachment Part5-MODIFIED.PDF


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## compound driver 2 (Nov 30, 2008)

Brian I wouldnt worry about a reamed fit on the govenor. in truth your going to need a bit of slop to let it work. A reamed fit will be too close.


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## Powder keg (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm with Compound Driver. I always make things to tight and have to rework everything, most of the time;o)

Wes


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> Brian I wouldnt worry about a reamed fit on the govenor. in truth your going to need a bit of slop to let it work. A reamed fit will be too close.


I machine to two sizes--#1--Too damn tight and #2--Too damn sloppy loose!!!! At least with #1 I can play with it a little bit and make it fit and/or slide. With option #2, its away to the scrap bin.


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## compound driver 2 (Nov 30, 2008)

Plus 5 thou and your on the right track for the bore.


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## kvom (Nov 30, 2008)

I took a look at Marv's referenced link on the math. The gist is that given a governor with a given mass and arm length plus the rotational speed, you can calculate the angle the arms will make relative to the shaft. The discussion ignores the presence of a spring or any frictional effects.

What was interesting to my mind was the fact that the balls should theorectically oscillate slightly up and down like a pendulum, rather than attaining a stable equilibrium. In reality I am sure that friction would quickly damp out this osciallation.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

Although there is a lot of sophisticated math to calculate governors, (or anything else mechanical for that matter), they give a guideline to a theoretical "perfect frictionless scenario". This project is going to be based on "seat of the pants" experience and mechanical accuity gained over 50 years of messing with all things mechanical. Yes, the secret will be in the spring (The one I didn't show, Tel.) I plan on test driving this thing in my variable speed 3/8" drill.


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## kvom (Nov 30, 2008)

You need the spring only if the mass of the balls is insufficient.


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## Philjoe5 (Nov 30, 2008)

Interesting project Brian. This will go on my projects list. I noticed every time I read one of your WIP's, my project list gets longer. :'( :'(

Cheers,
Phil


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 30, 2008)

kvom  said:
			
		

> You need the spring only if the mass of the balls is insufficient.


According to what I have read on the subject, the spring helps in a large way to dampen out the oscillations.


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## Bernd (Nov 30, 2008)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Don Sandler has working ones of that type on several of his engines the governor is only about the size of an American 1 cent piece.
> Tin



Hey Tin, does he have a web site? Would like to see those.

Bernd


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 1, 2008)

Bern: Do not think don has his own site. there are a few of his engines in the NEMES photo gallery. I do not see any photos of the tiny FB Governor but here is a photo of one of his engine with a working governor. 





Tin


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## Jasonb (Dec 1, 2008)

If you thread the tube inside the spring and fit a nut it is possible to adjust the compression rate of the spring and therefore the tick over speed of the engine. That I what I understood the main reason for the spring was.

If you look at my stuart beam you can see the nut and locknut which are threaded 3/16x40tpi.

Jason


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 1, 2008)

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> If you thread the tube inside the spring and fit a nut it is possible to adjust the compression rate of the spring and therefore the tick over speed of the engine. That I what I understood the main reason for the spring was.
> 
> If you look at my stuart beam you can see the nut and locknut which are threaded 3/16x40tpi.
> 
> Jason


Jason--Very interesting. Can you make the adjustment while the engine is running? Can you take a digital pic of the governor from closer up and post it please.---Brian


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## Jasonb (Dec 1, 2008)

You need to do it with the engine stopped as you have to get two spanners for the nut & lock nut between the arms which would be whizzing round if the engine were running. Though you can grab hold of it a sthe spring steel drive belt tends to slip easily

Pics as requested, the balls are 5/8" dia to give some idea of size. The linkage works a butterfly valve in the inlet to the steam chest











Jason


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 1, 2008)

JasonB---Thank you very much---Brian---You will see that the drawing in the very first post has been changed to incorporate the spring and a couple of hex nuts. This is a definate improvement to the design, and the fact that the spring is shown will make Tel very happy. ;D ;D


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## tel (Dec 1, 2008)

Onya Brian! ;D ;D ;D


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 1, 2008)

Today I worked on the part of the governor that the lower set of arms attach to. One of the things I find with small stuff like this, is that it becomes a real problem to hold it in the milling vice without it turning or trying to run away from me. Yesterday when I made the top peice, I drilled and sawcut a peice of scrap aluminum and after sticking the round shank of the part in the hole in the scrap aluminum, I was able to mount it in the vice (with a good squeeze). Even so, when I was milling it, it turned from the pressure of the milling cutter. Not enough to ruin the part, just enough to annoy me. Today when I made this peice, I stuck the shank into the hole in the aluminum scrap peice, then cross dowelled it and put a 0.125" pin through it to keep it from turning when I machined it. This time it didn't turn on me, so I guess I was successfull. I am still learning a lot of this machine shop practice, as I only started last March. I guess that one of the most important things to learn is how to hold the friggin material still while machining it.---Brian


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Hey Brian, 

"I am still learning a lot of this machine shop practice, as I only started last March"

Coulda' fooled me ;D

Cheers,
Phil


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## tel (Dec 2, 2008)

Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> Hey Brian,
> 
> "I am still learning a lot of this machine shop practice, as I only started last March"
> 
> ...



Yeah, you've come a long way in that time Brian!

Now here's a bit of history - the first governor I made, 25 odd years ago, was purely ornamental (non working), it looked the pert tho', spinning around on the mill engine.

Now do you see anything missing here?


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 2, 2008)

Tel--Very nice for something "ornamental", and yes, there appears to be SOMETHING missing.--Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 2, 2008)

The next part I build will be the upper arms for the governor. Those of you with sharp eyes will see that I managed to make a mistake on the bottom part that I machined yesterday. The flat area which has the pivot holes in it for the two lower arms is supposed to be 0.188 high, as per the drawing. I never noticed untill I had the darn thing completely finished that it ended up as .31 high on the peice I machined. Since this will not impair the function of the governor, I will use it anyways, as it can not be fixed and I do not want to take the time required to machine a new bottom part.--I have 44 years experience at making this type of drawing, but only 10 months practice at reading them to create parts, I guess. ;D ;D ;D


View attachment PART-1-MODIFIED.PDF


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 2, 2008)

As always, thanks for sharing these drawings :bow:

Cheers,
Phil


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 2, 2008)

Lord, but I hate making these tiny little parts. Can't half see them, have difficulty holding them, grumble, grumble, grumble!!!   ??? I have to stop now, because I have to go up town and try to buy a small chuck, which I can hold in my big chuck, on both the miling machine and on the lathe. I bought a 3/32" reamer and a 5/64" drill yesterday, but have nothing small enough to hold them. I bought one of those cheap Chinese pin chucks, and the drill wobbles so bad in the damn thing that I'm afraid to use it. A plague on the people who manufacture cheap stuff that never was any good right from their factory---no matter where their factory is!!!


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## kvom (Dec 2, 2008)

Totally agree! Time for a quadruple scale engine plan. ;D


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## Maryak (Dec 2, 2008)

Brian,

I think it's an accessory, but the drill chuck from a dremel may be the answer. I had a similar problem until I realised that my pin chuck was 4 jaw. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 2, 2008)

Maryak---The pin chuck I had was cheap Chinese crap. It was a 3 jaw but extrememly poor quality. I just went down to Canadian Tire and bought a replacement 3 jaw chuck for a 3/8" drill. This chuck has a 3/8"-24 fine thread in the back of it. I screwed a 3/8" bolt with the head cut off into the back of the chuck, chucked up a peice of 3/8" cold rolled round stock in the jaws, then mounted the 3/8" cold rolled in my lathe and turned down the shank of the 3/8" bolt to 11/32" diameter. It works perfect now, as a pin chuck when mounted in the big chuck on either my lathe or my mill. It will hold drills down to 0.040" dia. anything smaller than that, I don't want to work with anyways.---Brian


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## Maryak (Dec 2, 2008)

Brian,

Glad you got it sorted, another way to skin the proverbial cat. ;D ;D :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep, yep, yep!!! Just like pickin' fly poop outa pepper!!!


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## Kludge (Dec 2, 2008)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> According to what I have read on the subject, the spring helps in a large way to dampen out the oscillations.



It will still oscillate. Think about a car with bad shocks - same idea. If you put that dampening disk I mentioned on another thread somewhere on your part #5, so it's riding against the center shaft, it should do the trick. 

Best regards,

Kludge ... who's gonna hide before he gets into more trouble. ;D


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 3, 2008)

I finished machining the second upper arm this morning. I am still messing around with this new camera, trying to figure out the best way to position and light still shots. It works really good for videos, but doesn't want to focus very well under low light conditions. This shot was taken over by the window in my little machine shop.


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## mklotz (Dec 3, 2008)

Brian,

Your new camera will probably have a means of setting the ISO number. In the old days, film was rated with ASA numbers and the higher the number, the more sensitive the film, i.e, the better able it was to capture images in low light. ISO numbers are numerically equivalent to ASA numbers (just a different standards organization).

It's not clear to me how the sensitivity increase is accomplished in a digital camera (photo experts feel free to chime in here) but, increasing the ISO value your camera is using will allow you to take pictures in low light conditions without flash. Higher ISO values will also increase noise sensitivity but Canon does a good job of managing this in their cameras.

Check your camera manual. If it's like most of the Canons with which I'm familiar, you'll need to use the 'P' setting on the mode dial and then the 'FUNC SET' menu to change the ISO setting.


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## Jasonb (Dec 3, 2008)

Also try using a darker background then the camera won't darken everything to compensate for the bright background, I use a mid blue background but grey or green work just as well.

Jason


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## shred (Dec 3, 2008)

If you're not already, kick it into Macro mode (universally symbolized by a Tulip for some reason) and then keep an eye on the display where it tells you what the focus distance is for whatever zoom you're at and try to stay inside that.


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## spuddevans (Dec 3, 2008)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It's not clear to me how the sensitivity increase is accomplished in a digital camera (photo experts feel free to chime in here) but, increasing the ISO value your camera is using will allow you to take pictures in low light conditions without flash. Higher ISO values will also increase noise sensitivity but Canon does a good job of managing this in their cameras.



I'm no expert, just an avid enthusiast. I stand (or sit) to be corrected, but I think this is how it works.

The little device, either a CCD (Charge Coupled Device) or CMOS (Complimentary Metal Oxide Silicon) chip is what converts the light into a digital output onto your memory card.

The CCD or CMOS has literally millions of photo-detectors (pixels)or sites that will convert light into a voltage, the brighter the light the greater the voltage. ( when I say greater voltage, I'm talking about milivolts)

When you select the lowest or standard ISO (sensitivity) you are using the minimum amplification from the CCD or CMOS chip and thus giving you the best picture quality that your camera can give.

However, if you are wanting to take pictures in darker conditions you can on most camera's increase the ISO (sensitivity) and that then amplifies the output of the CCD or CMOS sensor to produce the same output as when you have normal light conditions. 

So why not use higher sensitivities all the time and be able to take pictures in the dark? Unfortunately when you use the higher sensitivities ( ISO's ) you also amplify digital noise that is present in the CCD or CMOS chip. Normally the noise is so low as to not be noticed, but when amplified using higher ISO's it becomes visable especially in shadowy or dark areas of the picture.

I hope this is understandable.

Tim


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2008)

Thanks for all the camera tips guys. I will definately try them all. In the meantime, here is a picture taken with my old Sony, of the initial assembly of all these tiny parts. Excuse all my temporary drill bit pivot pins---I have a length of 3/32" (0.094") drill rod on order. The action on this thing is fascinating. At one level I know how it works, and I know it will work, but that is nowheres near the same as holding the finished peices in your hand and pushing/pulling the stem post to see the ball support arms move in and out.--It works great.


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## mklotz (Dec 4, 2008)

Brian's in luck on the increased noise at higher ISO numbers issue.  Much of the noise is due to thermal agitation and so, lower ambient temperatures mean less noise.

I'm told that the folks in Canada have a real lock on low ambient temperatures.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2008)

No machining this morning. I have been designing the valve mechanism that the governor operates, and making the lever a little mor machining friendly. I made the valve block and inlet/outlet tubes transparent, so you can see how it works. At very low speed or when stopped, the governor has a 'balls in" attitude, and the valve is completely open, giving no restriction to the passage of air or steam into the cylinders. As soon as the engine revs up, centrifugal force begins to move the governor into a "balls out" attitude. This causes the valve to progressively close the air/steam port untill at full "balls out" the valve is completely closed. I have also attached 2 "blown up views" of the steam port totally open and totally closed, as it is hard to see in the bigger view.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2008)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Brian's in luck on the increased noise at higher ISO numbers issue. Much of the noise is due to thermal agitation and so, lower ambient temperatures mean less noise.
> 
> I'm told that the folks in Canada have a real lock on low ambient temperatures.


Marv---Come on, my better half is getting old like me. I don't get that "thermal agitation" thing near as often as I used to!!! ;D ;D ;D


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## kvom (Dec 4, 2008)

The "full balls out" position would be with the balls at almost 90 degrees. If the spring/jam nuts allow them to get higher than down in the drawing you might have a situation where the pivot collar can escape. Obviously something that's easy to check.

Looks like a lot of "fiddly parts" for someone like me who doesn't like them either.  ;D


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 4, 2008)

Great job Brian. Again, thanks for the very clear drawings. I've read through a lot of material on how these work, but this thread is really clearing up a lot of the mystery for me :bow:

Cheers,
Phil


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 5, 2008)

Since the main supporting block is aluminum, and there is a (lot?) of wear from the revolving stem post and the sliding valve rod, I have opened the bores in the aluminum out to .3125" and put in a full length brass bushing in both places. I also noticed that by the time I was finished that I had an air lock at the bottom of the sliding valve, so I have extended a bleed hole down and out thru the side of the main body. In theory, pressurized air should never reach that bleed port (except for any leakage past the end of the valve), but it will keep the valve from "air locking" when it moves down in the bore.


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## tel (Dec 5, 2008)

'ang on Brian, the way I'm seeing that, when the governor goes 'balls down' that bleed hole is open to the air/steam passage. Or have you got some tricky bit in there I can't see?


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 5, 2008)

Tel--There is a tricky bit you can't see. The valve has a slot thru it, with a solid peice between the slot and the lower end. See the blow ups in the previous posts.


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## tel (Dec 5, 2008)

OK, now I'm with you - the bottom of the valve is always below the passage! It's early here mate, make allowances for me!


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 5, 2008)

Going to end up something like this---


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2008)

Its Saturday and I'm playing. I have started to figure out that not everything has to be milled. Much of what I do goes 10 times faster if use the bandsaw and a good file for surfaces that are not critical mating surfaces.---Case in point---The main support body for the governor. There is only one "critical" mating surface on the entire part. The rest of the surfaces are "open" and need to be cosmetically finished only.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2008)

And another one bites the dust---


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2008)

Holy Cow!!! Its starting to look like the model---


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## CrewCab (Dec 6, 2008)

Blo*dy H*ll Brian ............ have you bought a job lot of 3/32" drill bits ;D

But on a more serious note : ...... great progress ......... I have trouble keeping up with your posts, never mind the machining .... keep up the good work feller :bow:

CC


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2008)

CrewCab  said:
			
		

> Blo*dy H*ll Brian ............ have you bought a job lot of 3/32" drill bits ;D
> 
> But on a more serious note : ...... great progress ......... I have trouble keeping up with your posts, never mind the machining .... keep up the good work feller :bow:
> 
> CC



Well Actually----I was overcome by an attack of flagrant stupidity!!! Last summer, while building something, I bought a pair of small drill bits. I have been laboring under the assumption that they ware 1/16" diameter. Last week when I phoned my tool guy to order a 3/32" reamer, I said---"Oh yeah---When you bring over the reamer, bring me a couple of the right sized drills to go with it."---(His shop is on the other side of town, but he lives near me.) And then---I went to get one of what I thought were the 1/16" drill bits, and damned if they weren't 5/64"---the same size as I had just bought.---Don't get old. die young!!! When ya get old, ya get stoopid!!! :'( :'( :'(


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2008)

Check this out!!!


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 7, 2008)

I'm new around here and have just gotten around to following this thread. Really neat project. It will really add something to the appearance of that engine.

Just wandering if anyone has given any thought to the failure modes and the consequences of failure. At the speeds and loads involved here I'm sure there is no danger, I'm just thinking. How does it go in full scale steam engines driving a load, what happens?

1. If the upper pivot pin fails the spring drives the collar to the bottom and the valve is wide open - overspeed.

2 If the middle pivot pin fails, same as above.

3. If the lower pivot pin fails, same as above.

4. If the collar escapes the control fork, I'm not sure which way the valve would go.

5. If the drive belt parts or jumps the groove, rotation halts, the balls fall and the throttle goes wide open.

Other failure modes, say the loss of a weight or bushing failure or failure of any part of the linkage the the consequences would vary. What happens? I have no real world experience but it seems like it would be a good idea to design some linkage with a "fail safe" limit that would close the valve and become locked out until reset if the engine exceeds a safe speed. I'm thinking of this as some kind of mechanical intelligence that is getting its signals crossed. It is seeing a need to open the throttle when it should be doing the exact opposite.

Is this a problem in the real world of steam power?

Jerry


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## tel (Dec 7, 2008)

According to the old timers around this way, broken drive belts were a common failure - it meant a quick jump to the shut-off valve.


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## Maryak (Dec 7, 2008)

CJ,

Here's what we had in my day or variations on the theme. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

Should the eccentric fail to fly out and trip the machine, things could get quite exciting and more than one engineer/stoker has been chased round the engine room by lumps of generator or found in a quivering heap under the condenser surrounded by the remains. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










The was one particular boiler feed pump which had a nasty habit of overspeeding and shedding its turbine blades through the casing - Admiralty solution a bloody great strap 1.25" solid semicircle over the casing, when they failed the blades only got as far as the strap, mind you the steam sure gave you a run for your money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	












Best Regards
Bob


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## joeby (Dec 7, 2008)

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion; but this http://www.rustyiron.com/literature/Flywheel_Explosions.pdf is an interesting look at what happens when a full size steam engine overspeeds.

 Kevin


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## shred (Dec 7, 2008)

joeby  said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion; but this http://www.rustyiron.com/literature/Flywheel_Explosions.pdf is an interesting look at what happens when a full size steam engine overspeeds.
> 
> Kevin


That's a fascinating article, especially the parts on flywheel design and how the max speed of a flywheel is entirely determined by the material it's made of, not thickness or anything else.Well-made wooden flywheels can run safely faster than cast iron ones.

Also there's this bit-- I never knew before why flywheels had 'S' spokes--


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 7, 2008)

This morning, I built the lever. I am just about finished the fiddly little bits, thank God!!! You will see that I have cut away part of the main body that I made yesterday. I started out to do this because it looked too "heavy" through that area. Then as I proceeded with it, I realized that it will serve a real purpose rather than a purely cosmetic one. I need to put a shaft collar in that cut out area to keep the entire shaft and governor from dropping down when it is in a balls up attitude. The hub on the o-ring pulley will keep the shaft from trying to move up, but I had notheing in the design to keep the shaft from dropping down. so---form does not always follow function. This time it was reversed!!! Now---off to build the link and a valve.


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## crankshafter (Dec 7, 2008)

Brian.
Only one thing to say: Just amazing


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 7, 2008)

Well Sir!! Now if I can just get the .094" drill rod thats on order, and Chucks brass balls (Well, not his, the ones he put in the mail for me,) then I'm almost in business for a test run in the variable speed electric drill. Actually the lever, link, and valve seem to work very well together, with no binding, but I won't really be able to tell untill I get some drill rod shafts into those pivot points that are now occupied by all my drill bits.


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## tel (Dec 7, 2008)

Lookin' real good Brian - you have been hard at it.

Now here's a little tip re all those pins - I bash the flux off a suitable sized welding electrode, polish 'er up with a bit of fine emery, and make my holes to suit that.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 7, 2008)

Very happy to anounce that the first test is a big success!!! I finished everything to do with the lever, link, valve, and body. I ran my airline thru the valve body and started the engine under a much higher pressure than I normally would. The engine just about took off and flew around the room, but when I operated the lever it shuts the engine right down to a very slow idle--and this is in a "no load" situation. If the engine was driving something and had that extra resistance to overcome, it would stop completely.This engine runs great on about 8 PSI of air. When I have 40 PSI on the regulator there is enough air escaping around the valve to keep the engine running at a very slow idle. When I move the link into what would be a "balls in" configuration of the governor, it takes off like the devil was after it. It takes very little pressure to move the lever, and I'm glad that I put the air bleed hole in the bottom of the valve chamber, because there is enough air escaping around the valve that it will actually shift the lever if I plug that bleed hole with my finger!!! The valve travels about 1/4" from full open to full close, and the effect on the engine is that it speeds up or slows down in a very "controlled" manner. There is a 2:1 ratio built into the lever, so that the bottom collar of the governor has to move 1/2" from "balls in" to "balls out" to move the valve thru its 1/4" of travel. This is all very encouraging, and makes me think that the governor is actually going to work as I intended.


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## ronm (Dec 7, 2008)

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> I'm new around here and have just gotten around to following this thread. Really neat project. It will really add something to the appearance of that engine.
> 
> Just wandering if anyone has given any thought to the failure modes and the consequences of failure. At the speeds and loads involved here I'm sure there is no danger, I'm just thinking. How does it go in full scale steam engines driving a load, what happens?
> 
> ...


Somewhere, don't know where, I saw a setup on a mill engine that had an idler pulley that ran on top of the gov. belt. Pulley was mounted on an arm connected to the throttle valve, so if the belt broke the arm dropped down & shut the engine down...overspeed situations are nasty & scary on any kind of engine...


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## JMI (Dec 8, 2008)

Engines generally have an overspeed trip that is separate and works independently of the governor that will shut off the steam/fuel/air etc... to the prime mover in the event of an overspeed.

Jim


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## dsquire (Dec 8, 2008)

Sounds great Brian. :bow: :bow:

Now we just have to wait till it gets cold enough to freeze the [email protected]!!$ off the brass monkey and you can finish this portion of this project up. It definitely looking good Brian. Keep up the good work.

Cheers 

Don


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 10, 2008)

Now if I just had Chucks brass balls-----Damn--Its been a week now since he sent them, and Toronto is less than 100kM away.-Hope some postal worker didn't think they were gold and rip me off---


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## kustomkb (Dec 10, 2008)

Pretty cool!


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

Chuck---The brass balls finally showed up today. They're beeutifull---I didn't know they would be polished. Thank You, Thank You!!!


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## tel (Dec 11, 2008)

Well Brian I must say it - 'You've got balls'.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

The fun is about to begin----


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!! I'm not sure how this is going to work on the steam engine when I get it mounted, but is it ever cool to see it operate when driven by an o-ring ran off the electric variable speed drill. you can see the balls fly out and see the valve shift, and see how the different RPM ranges affect how far the balls actually fly out from the stem post. I will endevour to make a video to post.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

As promised--Here is the video of the first run.


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## rake60 (Dec 11, 2008)

Brian I have to say this...

I have been a machinist all my working life.
I am very familiar with the prototyping process of a new design.
It's full of blaming the next man in the process for it's problems.

Watching one man take it from idea to manufacture and then to operation 
is a very refreshing view!

No one to pass blame to, just a will to make it work.

I'm loving it.
Great test video!
Looking forward to seeing it in operation.

Rick


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## chuck foster (Dec 11, 2008)

excellent video brian 
glad the balls got there............next time i think it would be better if i delivered them myself :

chuck


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> Brian I have to say this...
> 
> I have been a machinist all my working life.
> I am very familiar with the prototyping process of a new design.
> ...



Rick--Thats been pretty well the story of my life for the last 44 years. I love to design machinery, love to see it built, and love to see it run. And the lions share of the time, there is no "blame" and "finger pointing". I'm human.---I do make mistakes occasionally. And I have no trouble admitting it. People like that attitude, and it helps them to conduct themselves in the same way.---Brian


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## artrans (Dec 11, 2008)

Brian that's great. You have a great voice also and would make a good narrator. My hats off to you great job on the gov. Do have plans. I would love a copy to try and make one my self. thank you and god bless you.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 11, 2008)

Tech problem fixed---Hang on----


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## rake60 (Dec 11, 2008)

Excellent!  :bow:

Rick


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## cfellows (Dec 11, 2008)

Great project, Brian. You've absolutely outdone yourself!

Chuck


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 11, 2008)

Brian

That is absolutely beautiful. A work of art. 

The spring that you point out that controls the speed. Does it need to be on the vertical shaft. It seems that if it acted elsewhere on the linkage, you could modify the speed setting without stopping the engine. I don't know if that would be useful or not but it seems that you could then easily set any no load speed within the engine's range and the governor would maintain that speed under varying load. 

Jerry


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## jimmybondi (Dec 12, 2008)

Brian

very nice work - very well done

one question:
when you like to change the regulated speed - what has to be changed ?

the spring ?

or is it possible to change the length of the the valve rod ?
(that one you pull up in the video) 

my idea was to change the regulated speed on the fly ...

Frank


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2008)

There are 3 ways to change the regulated speed. A weaker spring will let the balls fly out sooner, which will choke off the air/steam supply sooner, thus causing the engine to run slower at its regulated speed. Larger/heavier balls would fly out sooner and accomplish the same result.---Or I could change the pulley to make the stempost on the governor rotate a bit faster. There were ways to vary the spring tension "on the fly" on some full size steam engines, but the mechanics of doIng so are just to complex to recreate in a miniature scale. I will probably just take my side cutters and remove one coil at a time from the spring untill it slows to the regulated speed I want. I don't think a spring elsewhere in the system would have the same effect.


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 12, 2008)

Brian

I may not be so good at describing my thought in words and I may be all wet anyway but a quick and dirty drawing is attached that may make my ideas clearer. (Or maybe not) Either the Red or the Green option or several other possibilities would seem to have the same effect of attenuating the governor's reaction. This is only conceptual and would obviously have to be engineered more carefully as to spring tension and lever arm lengths. In fact a screw could be added to the tension spring for fine tuning and the handle could be used as the operational control.

This is not meant to be critical of your design. In fact I was so captivated by your project and it's execution that I spent a fair amount of time thinking about it. 

Jerry 

View attachment Governor Speed Control.pdf


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 12, 2008)

Brian

Additional thought. The original spring would remain in position. The tension spring would just provide an offset against it.

Jerry


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2008)

Jerry---You could well be right. I will think on that one.---Brian


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## artrans (Dec 12, 2008)

Well first off let me say I wish I could build someting that nice that quick and work that well out of the box.Thinking about it I would think that when the balls are fall out that would be no air so the engine is forced to slow for the gov to drop down. or have it set so lets say your working presure is 75 psi the balls out psi is 50 psi and that will set the speed. I think
again I mean no disrespect just thinking out lot I wel shut up now thanks art would like the plans though brian everytime I spell brian I type brain first I guess that works also very good job


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## potman (Dec 12, 2008)

Brian, You want something to put a variable load on your engine so the new governor does it's job? 

How about a shredder for ping-pong balls, fun to show off with, or 
a nut cracker, build up stress and then relieve it, or 
a geared down water pump, more force required on lifting stroke than on return, or
such?

earl...


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2008)

potman  said:
			
		

> Brian, You want something to put a variable load on your engine so the new governor does it's job?
> 
> How about a shredder for ping-pong balls, fun to show off with, or
> a nut cracker, build up stress and then relieve it, or
> ...



Earl---I've been way to busy to give this much thought. Whats perking in the back of my mind is something similar to the slinky machine, but with two different loads, one heavy and one light on the pads that the slinky attaches to---


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## kustomkb (Dec 12, 2008)

My vote goes to the nut cracker!


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2008)

I am quite pleasantly surprised at just how responsive this governor really is, and how well it does control the speed of the engine. It does operate just as I had anticipated. On the initial rush of air when I turn on the main air supply valve, the engine self starts, begins to revolve, and very rapidly begins to ramp up to what could be a run away engine. The governor balls rotate faster and faster untill centrifugal force begins to move them into a "balls out" condition, and the valve in the governor begins to close and choke off the incoming air. It stabilizes very quickly, with the ball position and the speed of the engine become constant, with no visible oscillating. I know that the governor is controlling the engine speed, because if I override the position of the valve, the engine begins to rotate much faster, then if I let go of the valve, it settles back into its constant speed. When I impose a load on the engine (at high air pressure, around 60 PSI) by holding my thumb against the rim of flywheel, the engine begins to slow down, the valve opens, and the engine picks up speed again, even with the load imposed, trying to hold that constant RPM. I hooked it up to the slinky machine (which really requires very little torque to move it). By sliding the engine on top of the table untill the o-ring belt went slack and the slinky machine was not working, then pulling the engine back untill the belt tightened up and the slinky machine began to work, I can actually see the lever working to open the inlet valve wider and hold the constant speed. There has to be some change in the engine RPM to initiate movement of the balls, so as soon as the load comes on, the engine dies just a little. Then as soon as they move the engine begins to get more air and the RPM picks up to where it was previously. I have discovered that it doesn't respond all that well to rapid changes in the load, but when the changes are slower it responds very effectively.


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## CrewCab (Dec 12, 2008)

Well I think it's a load of Balls ;D ............. never thought I'd get away with saying that on a family forum :

Brian .......... I've been watching this thread with interest and, as usual, it has rocketed along ........... from conception, through design, manufacture, completion, commissioning and having a running model in very short time ......... congratulations are in order :bow:

First class sir 8)

CC


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## BobWarfield (Dec 12, 2008)

That was highly entertaining!

Thank You,

BW


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2008)

I just posted a complete set of engineering drawings for this governor in the uploads section, in .pdf format. You are welcome to use them--if you download them I would appreciate a karma point. Its a fun project.---Brian


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## Paula (Dec 13, 2008)

Brian,

Thank you for a wonderful thread! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 You have a remarkable talent for taking a concept, running with it, and bringing it to fruition. I am humbled.

Is anyone else here amazed at what the internet has done as far as being able to share our work with others -- in "real time"?

And on the subject of flyball governors, it's worth noting that these were sometimes used on IC engines as well. Not long ago, Shelf Pet Models came out with a highly interesting 1/3 scale model of a the 2-1/2 horsepower Red Devil hit/miss engine. It uses a flyball governor on a gear-driven vertical sideshaft:






An absolutely beautiful engine, in my estimation, but alas at the very outer limit of my machine capacity, if not exceeding it. :-\

Once again, Brian, thanks for sharing your project with us.

Paula


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 13, 2008)

Thanks Paula.--I enjoy documenting and videoing the builds that I do.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 16, 2008)

I have decided that I would like to slow the optimum speed of the engine down a little. I tried clipping a bit off the end of the compression spring, and although this did slow it down a little, it did act as if it might want to oscillate when the spring got weaker from shortening it. I then tried to buy some 5/8" brass balls from McMaster-Carr, and was informed that they no longer ship to new customers in Canada. Chuck Foster, (a neighbour in Ontario) who GAVE me the first two 1/2" diameter brass balls for the governor has informed me of a fellow on Ebay who sells to Canada. He goes by the name "Toolsupply" on Ebay and his email address is "[email protected]" . i just went on Ebay and put "brass balls" into the search engine and very quickly found him. His prices are reasonable, and he does accept Paypal and ships to Canada.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 16, 2008)

I have done a rough sketch of a machine which would apply cyclical varying loads to the steam engine to make the governor work. The load applied would vary over a fairly long time period because of the gear reduction, first from the engine pulley to the driven pulley, then because of the gear reduction at the machine itself. As the cantilevered end of the track slowly lifted up , that would be the load side of the cycle. When it began to descend, that would be the non load side of the cycle. The bearing, which would roll back and forth, is just eye candy.--It doesn't actually have to be there for the machine to apply a varying, cyclical load.


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 16, 2008)

Brian

I followed Kevin's thread that leads to Google Books and was paging through the handbook re Corlis engines and spotted some interesting text. On page 16 of that book, the following quote: 
  "We should also see that the oil, or dash pot, is in good working order, with a constant supply of oil to gently retard any sudden fluctuation in the movement of the regulator"

The following page shows a governor with the dash pot labeled as "Water Pot". 

A dash pot might make an interesting project and help with the governor fluctuation. Check it out.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xL...building&lr=&as_brr=1&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA16,M1

Jerry


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## Kermit (Dec 16, 2008)

Let me try making a link

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gb...tomatic&lr=&as_brr=1&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA344,M1

This actually starts as math, and I would seriously have to sit down with some books and some paper for about a week to get everything he's postulating with them thar numbers. But by the middle of page 345 he gets to the meat and potatoes he was cooking up.

Best translation I have. The rotational motion of the balls is inherently unstable with a tendency to destructive excesses. But with the addition of a spring(my interpretation) that closely matches(reacts to) the FORCES created by the momentum of the spinning MASS the whole whirlygig is returned to Ballarina like balance and perfection(my embellishments as well )

 I assume from the shape of his equations the action of the spring will be very NON linear. 

Anyone ever make a spring (or found something) that has a non linear response? I know in electronics we use linear taper and log taper potentiometers based on the control response needed.


I'm new so I don't know if this helps the group of people here or not. (Still lots of juicy tidbits in the book though) ;D


Goodnight to the bookworms,
Kermit


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 17, 2008)

Kermit

I'm not much on electronics, but don't you use something like resistors to dampen voltage oscillation. That's what a dash pot does. It dampens the oscillation of a spring or other physical input.

Jerry


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## Kermit (Dec 17, 2008)

Thanks Jerry

That "Dash Pot" is gonna be the object of inquest for me today. Actually it was the word pot that got me thinking electronics, because pot is our shorthand for a potentiometer, also called a variable resistor.  I'll probably feel silly about my comment once I learn more.

Always putting the mouth in gear without starting up the brain,
Kermit


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## shred (Dec 17, 2008)

You may want to search on "dashpot"-- I usually see them without the space and it will cut down the smokeable unrelated hits considerably.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 17, 2008)

A mechanical "dashpot" is generally an enclosed cannister with a membrane closing off one side of the cannister from the other. A mechanical "piston rod" when pushed on from outside the cannister causes the membrane (diaphragm) to flex, and pressurize air on the other side of the cannister. There is a very small air release hole in the side of the cannister, on the side opposite from the push rod, called a "controlled orifice"----It lets the air out slowly. So--basically, its a kind of shock absorber, which is used to make a mechanical linkage move slowly during the last bit of its travel. Back when the earth was young, and cars still had carburetors on them, you always would see a dashpot on the throttle plate mechanism, to prevent the engine from slowing down too rapidly and consequently stalling when you slowed down from a higher speed.---Brian


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## mklotz (Dec 17, 2008)

Airpot is a major manufacturer of these devices. Check out their applications page:

http://www.airpot.com/html/damp_motion.html


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 17, 2008)

The shiny thing that the black arrow is pointing too is a mechanical dashpot on the carburetor of my hotrod.


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## Kermit (Dec 17, 2008)

basically an inertial damper then!  allows full range of motion but slows the reactions of the governor down?


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 17, 2008)

The dash pot that I envisioned is just a small double ended cylinder with a hole in the piston that allows oil or some other fluid to flow between the chambers. The size of the hole controls the damping effect. A simple lathe project.

Jerry


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 24, 2008)

Finally, in yesterdays mail, the 5/8" brass balls I ordered 2 weeks ago off e-bay showed up. Very nice quality, as good or better than advertised. I am now thinking about buying a digital non contact tachometer, so that I can get some accurate, real time RPM values, to know what difference they will make in the engine speed, once installed.


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## artrans (Dec 24, 2008)

brain about that tach not sure if you no it or not . Go to a hobby shop that sells r/c planes
they have great tachs and cheap and work very well for what you trying to do and they will usually have both types contact and optical and you will pay a lot less then getting it from a supply house.If you do not have a hobby shop near you then hobby lobby or tower hobbies
also carry them and the work very well I have used them over the years and are great.
also merry Xmas and your posts are great and a joy to follow that's a gift in it self thank you art
.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 24, 2008)

Thanks for the Christmas wishes Artrans. I lucked out this morning. Went over to Princess Auto Supply (A purely Canadian thing) and picked up a nice Laser tach for less than half price. They are listed at $66 and were on today for $28!!!


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 27, 2008)

Okay--Here is some good information for people who have been following this thread. At a constant regulator setting of 50 PSI, with 1/2" diameter brass balls, the steam engine ran at a very consistent 500 RPM. When I switched over to 5/8" diameter balls, the engine ran at a consistent 375 RPM. Since the 5/8" balls are heavier, they fly into a "balls out" configuration at a lower RPM. I noticed that when running with the 1/2" balls, the shifter fork that runs from the bottom slider on the stem post over the pivot to the valve link was setting almost level when the engine was running. When I put the heavier balls on, running at the same PSI, the shifter fork is tipped at almost 15 degrees, which of course shuts the air/steam flow into the cylinders down quite considerably. Also, with the larger balls, the governor seems more sensitive to load on the engine, and has more of a tendency to "dither" (oscillate) a bit before it settles into a changed configuration when more load is applied to the engine. This concludes my testing of the flyball governor, although I will probably add more information about its reaction to varying loads when I complete the build of the Varying Load machine.---Brian


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## mklotz (Dec 27, 2008)

Brian,

That's interesting.

The 0.625" ball is 1.95 times heavier than the 0.5" ball. Now, the force needed to hold the balls in a given orbit is proportional to the square of their rotational speed.

If I take the square root of 1.95, I get 1.4. Your speed ratio, 500/375 yields 1.33.

Considering that I've ignored friction, the angle of the arms and a few other nasty real world effects, that's a pretty good corroboration of the laws of physics. Newton would be pleased.


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## ChooChooMike (Dec 27, 2008)

Of course this semi-scientific ball study brings up ALL kinds of jokes/puns/chucklers, but I'll leave those to your imagination  :big:


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## AlanHaisley (Dec 27, 2008)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> There are 3 ways to change the regulated speed. A weaker spring will let the balls fly out sooner, which will choke off the air/steam supply sooner, thus causing the engine to run slower at its regulated speed. Larger/heavier balls would fly out sooner and accomplish the same result.---Or I could change the pulley to make the stempost on the governor rotate a bit faster. There were ways to vary the spring tension "on the fly" on some full size steam engines, but the mechanics of doIng so are just to complex to recreate in a miniature scale. I will probably just take my side cutters and remove one coil at a time from the spring untill it slows to the regulated speed I want. I don't think a spring elsewhere in the system would have the same effect.


Brian,
I'd think that the easiest flexible way to vary the speed would be with a pair of step pulleys. While this would not allow for on the fly speed setting, it would certainly let you select different speeds for different model loads.
Alan


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 27, 2008)

Alan---Take a look at Captain Jerrys earlier post in this thread, the one with the attached .pdf file. I have done a bit of experimenting with a rubber band, and it seems that Captain Jerry is correct.--I can modify the speed of the engine "On the fly" by using a spring at some other fulcrum point in the governor linkage train to either offset or add to the compression of the spring on the main stempost. I haven't explored this fully, but with just a rubber band looped around the end of the lever which runs from the moving bottom slider over to the valve linkage, I was able to modify the engine speed by pulling different tensions on the rubber band.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 15, 2009)

I have added the drawings necessary to make this governor as a 3 ball unit to the following thread. 15-jan.-2009
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3559.0


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