# TB2 - Elmer's Coomber #46



## Brass_Machine (Jun 29, 2008)

Team...

The next build will be the Elmer's #46. Since we have some relative new people, I want to keep this one simple... so to Elmer's scale it will be.

My current build team consists of:

1. Bob Warfield
2. JMe - Jacques
3. Bretk - Bret
4. Myself
5. te_gui - Brian
6. PowderKeg - Wes
7. Joe D - Joe
8. ksouers - Kevin
9. kustomkb - Kevin
10. GailInNM - Gail
11. zeusrekning - Tim
12. kvom - Kirk
13. Dick L. - Dick


We will be doing the parts assignments in the next couple of days. You can get the plans from this LINK.

Eric


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## te_gui (Jun 29, 2008)

So is this where we start chiming in as to what parts we would like? I would volunteer for the bases, I have some aluminum tooling plate that is crying to be used. Also I see we are going to stick with the "stock" size, are there going to be any other mods made to the plans to perhaps improve performance, ie bushings, ball bearings, etc.

Brian


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 29, 2008)

We will be building 16 engines. 1 for each team member (total 13). 1 for HMEM to display at shows. 1 to sell for charity and then 1 as a gift for our fearless leader (Rake60) as a thank you for the board.

Parts break down:

Base (16 Each) - te_gui
Bearing Block (4 Big 4 Small) - joe d (and wood sub-bases)
Bearing Block (4 Big 4 Small) - Dick L
Bearing Block (4 Big 4 Small) - Bob Warfield
Bearing Block (4 Big 4 Small) - Zuesrekning
Cylinder Shaft & Piston (8 Each) - ksouers
Cylinder Shaft & Piston (8 Each) - kustomkb
Cam Ring (16 Each) - GailinNM
Fly Wheel (8 Each) - kvom
Fly Wheel (8 Each) - Brass_Machine
Head (32 Each) - PowderKeg
Piston Rod & Fork (16 rods & 32 forks) - bretk
Rollers & Pin (32 rollers & 32 Pins) - JMe

Gail, since you have built this engine before... does this seem like a logical break down?

Eric


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 29, 2008)

To help us keep organized in here, when posting about the build... please use the following in the subject:

for the Elmers OC:

TB1 - "insert your subject here"

and for the 2nd team build:

TB2 - "insert your subject here"

Many thanks
Eric


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

I'd like to do the heads. 

Wes


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## GailInNM (Jun 30, 2008)

Eric. 

Looks OK to me except that you need 32 heads instead of 16. I will look at it again in the morning (after coffee) when I am a little more awake. The bearing block that acts as the valve block will need to be a close fit to the valve part on the cylinder, but I think that if we use a 1/2 inch end mill shank as a gauge pin to make the bearing block we will be OK if they are being bored. If they are reamed, then we should be able to just tolerance the mating part as it is easy to measure. Just a little coordination effort for the different people making them. 

This only loosely relates to the team build, but I have been asked about the cam layout by people who are just interested in how it could be done manually easier than Elmer's way. I posted a zip file in the downloads section that has a Excel XLS file in it that can generate the cam coordinates for any size Coombers engine and a text file withe the coordinates for the Elmer's # 46 cam along with two ways of making it with out CNC. This is only for reference for the people who are interested in how it all works. Later I will post about how to draw them in CAD and to do them CNC if there is any interest.

Best wishes to all and looking forward to a very successful team build.
Gail In NM,USA


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

GailInNM  said:
			
		

> Eric.
> 
> Looks OK to me except that you need 32 heads instead of 16. I will look at it again in the morning (after coffee) when I am a little more awake. The bearing block that acts as the valve block will need to be a close fit to the valve part on the cylinder, but I think that if we use a 1/2 inch end mill shank as a gauge pin to make the bearing block we will be OK if they are being bored. If they are reamed, then we should be able to just tolerance the mating part as it is easy to measure. Just a little coordination effort for the different people making them.
> 
> ...



Gail,

Thanks for the input! And thanks for uploading the XLS spreadsheet!

Eric


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm interested in how you draw them in CAD Gail. So please post)

Wes


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## JMe (Jun 30, 2008)

Hi
i propose to make rollers and pins
Regards from Belgium
Jacques


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

I'd like either Bearing blocks or Flywheels, your choice. ;D I have 6061 for the bearings blocks and I might have enough yellow brass for the flywheels but I need to check that out.
              Thanks,
               Dick


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## kvom (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm thinking the flywheel might be doable by me with a bit of coaching.

Kirk


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## ksouers (Jun 30, 2008)

I'll take a set of cylinder-shafts and pistons.


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

I'll take the piston rods and forks

-Bret


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## kvom (Jun 30, 2008)

Any preference on the material for the flywheels: steel/brass/al?


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

kvom  said:
			
		

> Any preference on the material for the flywheels: steel/brass/al?



Added a poll for it.

Eric


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

Ok, I checked and I have 2" Brass for 16 flywheels I'll donate to the build if that's the way we go. It's made up of end cuts but the OD isn't marred up much.
                 Dick


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## te_gui (Jun 30, 2008)

Let the modifications begin. While we are on the subject, I am thinking about changing the overall thickness of the base to 1/2" and increasing the footprint slightly so I can run a radius around the top edge. The additional thickness will allow for counterboring for socket head rather then flathead capscrews (hate them with a passion) as well as additional mass under the model which is never a bad thing. The outer dimensions will only increase enough for the radius so as to leave the bearing boys their original real estate. Any objections?


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

Sounds OK to me. What do the rest think?

Wes


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Agree on the thicker base, I would also like to propose moving the flywheel outside of the second support, thus making it easier to see the piston movement and allow the flywheel and cam ring not to appear so cluttered and close. What does everyone think?

-Bret


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

te_gui  said:
			
		

> Let the modifications begin. While we are on the subject, I am thinking about changing the overall thickness of the base to 1/2" and increasing the footprint slightly so I can run a radius around the top edge. The additional thickness will allow for counterboring for socket head rather then flathead capscrews (hate them with a passion) as well as additional mass under the model which is never a bad thing. The outer dimensions will only increase enough for the radius so as to leave the bearing boys their original real estate. Any objections?



Done!

I think that is a good idea.

Eric


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, I decided to see if I could figure out this crazy cam ring. It took me a bit to get my head around it and figure out how to draw it. But I think everything turned out OK? I printed it out and scanned the image. Here it is. From this I have a piece of aluminum plate that I can make one of these 3X bigger)







I just have to scale it up and do a toolpath on it. I drew it up with Mastercam. The hard part was the line that the rollers roll on. I had a heck of a time getting it tangent with the rollers. 

Later, Wes


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

Dick L.  said:
			
		

> Ok, I checked and I have 2" Brass for 16 flywheels I'll donate to the build if that's the way we go. It's made up of end cuts but the OD isn't marred up much.
> Dick



I believe we are going to go with brass ;D

Eric


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

Thicker base sounds good. Regarding the flywheel ,if we move it outside we could extend the hub slightly for a set screw to eliminate the threaded hole in the rim. Might need to extend the shaft slightly as well. We will also need a collar to keep the load off the forks and cam. Has anyone ever done a flywheel with different metals, like a brass hub and stainless rim pressed or shrunk on? 
        Dick


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

On the small end bearing we could use a flanged oilite bushing to carry the thrust and load better. I expect it's light but less drag is better right ? 

     Dick


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

bretk  said:
			
		

> Agree on the thicker base, I would also like to propose moving the flywheel outside of the second support, thus making it easier to see the piston movement and allow the flywheel and cam ring not to appear so cluttered and close. What does everyone think?
> 
> -Bret



I wonder how hard that would be? And will it effect the performance of this engine?


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## ksouers (Jun 30, 2008)

If the flywheel is moved outside the bearing, then the bearing can be moved closer to the cam.
I was thinking about making the shaft an add-on instead of removing a whole lot of brass. Moving the flywheel out and the bearing in a bit will allow more meat on the cylinder for a stronger mating of the shaft. Maybe even a larger diameter, like 1/4 inch instead of 3/16?

Any thoughts on the add-on shaft?


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## zeusrekning (Jun 30, 2008)

Looks like this may turn into a design build after all. I high suggest we work up some drawings with all the changes so everyone makes parts to fit and to the same design.
Tim


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

zeusrekning  said:
			
		

> Looks like this may turn into a design build after all. I high suggest we work up some drawings with all the changes so everyone makes parts to fit and to the same design.
> Tim



Hmmm.

I don't want it to turn into a design build. I think that will come a little later. At this point, I would like to see the modifications only be cosmetic or simple. I think at this point we should leave the flywheel where it is.

Give me a little bit of time to get the Team Design going and it will be intersting. Sound good? 

Eric


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Eric, 

As far as the flywheel thing goes, can we just make the shaft a little longer and let people put it where they want, I don't think its that big a deal. 

As far as moving the support in and using a setscrew on a hub as opposed to having a hole in the flywheel rim, well yes that would be a design change, but not a big one?

-Bret


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

I have been looking over the plans... 

Is it me or does the flywheel help keep the rotating cylinder in place by not allowing it to slide out?

Eric


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

I think the roller forks do that? To bad this engine can't be taken apart after it's done. The forks are soldered to the shaft(

Wes


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## GailInNM (Jun 30, 2008)

Kevin,
On the one I built, I drilled and reamed a hole through the cylinder/valve for the shaft and soft soldered a length of 3/16 12L14 in. The shaft was center drilled before soldering in. Then I turned the valve and faced the cylinder with the one end of the shaft in a collet and supported by the center in the other end. Milled the sides and ends and then drilled and reamed the bore after putting in the steam passages. there was no problem going through the 12L14 in the middle of the cylinder as it cuts much the same as brass. If that was a concern you could use a 3/16 brass rod for the shaft. I also extended the shaft through the valve by about 3/8 inch so I could put the flywheel on the back side of the engine so I could see the cylinder action. The flywheel helps it run slower, but if you watched the video of mine you saw that it runs fine with out a flywheel. (I had "borrowed" the flywheel)

Dick,
I put a brass bushing in my outboard support. I have noticed that there is some wear at that bearing, probably from the unbalanced mass moving about as the piston moves. It can't be balanced as things move about. I think a oilite bushing would be a good idea. They are cheap and easy to obtain. 

Gail


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

Yes Eric , that is why I said we need a collar if we move the flywheel outside the bearing. Without it the forks will rub on the cam ring and cause excessive drag for sure as well as the cylinder floating out of it's valve alignment. 
We could still get a tapped hole in the hub with the flywheel inside but it will need to be on an angle with a brass pellet under the set screw to distribute the forceand not burr up the shaft.

    Dick


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

It sounds like all we have to do is make the shaft a bit longer then? That should be fine. Then the owners can decide which side of the bearing to run their flywheel. Also would leave extra to run an accessory with)

Wes


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Eric,

If you look at the video of it running, he doesn't even have a flywheel on it.

-bret


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## Powder keg (Jun 30, 2008)

I had a question Bretk. Will it run slow with the flywheel? Just wondering)

Wes


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## Dick L. (Jun 30, 2008)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> It sounds like all we have to do is make the shaft a bit longer then? That should be fine. Then the owners can decide which side of the bearing to run their flywheel. Also would leave extra to run an accessory with)
> 
> Wes



I agree ,I would leave the bearing where it is so we don't have extra holes in the base. Flywheel size won't change. Location would be up to the assembler.   We would need to add the collar though in the event the flywheel is used outside the bearing.

  Dick


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## joe d (Jun 30, 2008)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> It sounds like all we have to do is make the shaft a bit longer then? That should be fine. Then the owners can decide which side of the bearing to run their flywheel. Also would leave extra to run an accessory with)
> 
> Wes



We'll have to change the print to add a second set of mounting holes for the alternate bearing position? Or is the idea just to add some sort of spacer and use the original location?

Joe

Dick: you answered this while I was typing! You're too fast or I'm too slow!


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Wes,

Yes, the more mass, the more momentum to help smooth out the uneven power strokes inherant in a steam engine, the reasomn this engine runs without one is the cylinder acts as a sort of flywheel. I would hope it would run slower with more rotating mass.

-Bret


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

Ok... So we use Gails method and do the shaft longer. I say we leave the bearing mount points alone and design a collar.

Sound good?

Eric


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Eric,

Fine By me, Make the collar a pulley and you can use it inside or outside if you want to drive an accessory 8) Now were cookin' with gas !

-Bret


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## joe d (Jun 30, 2008)

Sign me up for bearing blocks, either one, Query: Ali or brass?

If the team is interested, I am willing to provide wooden bases (I've got a nice piece of mahogany that's been seasoning for about 30 years now, I think it my be stable!)

Joe


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

joe d  said:
			
		

> Sign me up for bearing blocks, either one, Query: Ali or brass?
> 
> If the team is interested, I am willing to provide wooden bases (I've got a nice piece of mahogany that's been seasoning for about 30 years now, I think it my be stable!)
> 
> Joe



That will be the next poll!

And the wood sub-bases... yes please 

Eric


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## ksouers (Jun 30, 2008)

Ok, does anybody have a preference for shaft material?

I already have some 12L14 on the way, but I'll have to place an order for the cylinder stock anyway.


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## bretk (Jun 30, 2008)

Polished ali would be a nice counterpoint to the brass flywheel and cylinder, from a bling perspective 8)

-Bret


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

bretk  said:
			
		

> Polished ali would be a nice counterpoint to the brass flywheel and cylinder, from a bling perspective 8)
> 
> -Bret



Gotta agree on the aluminum for bearings. I love the look of brass (I mean really, see my nickname) BUT I think it looks better with contrasting materials... IE aluminum and wood (for the sub bases).

Eric


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## chuck foster (Jun 30, 2008)

i was going to offer the making of the wood bases but someone beat me to it 

if you want me to make them just give me a shout.........and a drawing to follow.

chuck


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## chuck foster (Jun 30, 2008)

i forgot to say that i would be willing to build the bases and i don't want an engine in return.
i would just like to help out as others have helped me many,many times.

chuck


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## Brass_Machine (Jul 1, 2008)

chuck foster  said:
			
		

> i forgot to say that i would be willing to build the bases and i don't want an engine in return.
> i would just like to help out as others have helped me many,many times.
> 
> chuck



Chuck,

Save the bases for the IC build ;D

Eric


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## BobWarfield (Jul 1, 2008)

Bearing block, small end for me?

BW


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## Dick L. (Jul 1, 2008)

Good morning, Looks like bearings for me. I don't have a preference so either is fine, but sign me up for one the suspense is killing me. ;D
PM the address to send each lot of brass and I'll get them out .

      Thanks 
        Dick


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## zeusrekning (Jul 1, 2008)

Same as with I! I'll take what is left. I'm going to try and model this engine up this weekend. Hopefully this will help if anyone needs more clarified DWGs. 
Tim


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## BobWarfield (Jul 1, 2008)

Since I assume we're doing aluminum for the bearings, folks ought to consider MIC6 plate. The finish is very close to polish. If you want more bling, it's a wonderful starting point. And it saves you squaring 2 sides anyway. You do have to take some care not to mar it with clamps and such.

Cheers,

BW


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## kustomkb (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi, I have been out of town, cylinder shafts and pistons look they need some attention. Sounds good.


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## Dick L. (Jul 1, 2008)

BobWarfield  said:
			
		

> Since I assume we're doing aluminum for the bearings, folks ought to consider MIC6 plate. The finish is very close to polish. If you want more bling, it's a wonderful starting point. And it saves you squaring 2 sides anyway. You do have to take some care not to mar it with clamps and such.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> BW


 
 I haven't ever used the MIC6 grade aluminum. A quick search told me it is precision ground +/- .005 cast aluminum plate. Besides the ground finish to start does it have any other qualities that make it a better choice then 6061 plate? I have no problem with getting some if it will fit better with the build and appearance. Just looking to learn about it. 
              Thanks 
               Dick


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## BobWarfield (Jul 2, 2008)

No other qualities I am aware of. If you watch eBay closely you can get it relatively cheaply. I've never paid list for it at any rate.

Something else I'm wondering about is matching the look of the small and large bearing blocks. For example, the diameter end mill used will impact the radius of the blend on top. If we don't use the same diameter end mill on both bearing blocks, I think it could look funny as the two wouldn't match.

You guys know what I'm talking about?

I was scheming a fixture for these blocks on my way into work today. I'll have to fulminate some more on it. I'll start a thread to get your thoughts on it. 

Meanwhile, what about matching the end mill diameters? What do you guys want to use? Smaller is better looking? 1/4"? Smaller still?

Cheers,

BW


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## BobWarfield (Jul 2, 2008)

Okay, couldn't go to sleep tonight without posting the blasted fixture plate that's been going through my head all day. See the related thread that will be my build thread:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2357.0

I'll let this thread get on with the main purpose. Comments over on the other thread welcome.

Cheers,

BW


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## Dick L. (Jul 2, 2008)

Would there be an advantage for those of us doing the bearings to do pairs (2 big +2 small) so that we get a matched set? Thoughts please.
          Dick


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## Brass_Machine (Jul 2, 2008)

Dick L.  said:
			
		

> Would there be an advantage for those of us doing the bearings to do pairs (2 big +2 small) so that we get a matched set? Thoughts please.
> Dick



Not a bad idea. You would do 4 big and 4 small...

Everyone up for that?

Eric


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## Dick L. (Jul 2, 2008)

Ok ,hey it was early ;D 4 big 4 small . If it's ok with everyone else let's do it.
                      Dick


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## joe d (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm good with that, make lots of sense to me.

Joe


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## Powder keg (Jul 2, 2008)

I think the oillite would be a good idea. 

Wes


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## joe d (Jul 2, 2008)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> I think the oillite would be a good idea.
> 
> Wes



Never worked with that before. How is it to machine? Would this be a straight bearing or flanged?

Joe


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## GailInNM (Jul 2, 2008)

Standard SAE841 oil impregnated bronze bearings are only about $0.60 each in that size range. No machining necessary. A flange would not be necessary as they are made to press fit into a hole. Flanged ones are available, but are only necessary if you have a high axial load. You might want to press in a bearing that is slightly longer than the material is thick so it could act as a spacer to keep the flywheel hub from rubbing the bearing mount.
Gail in NM,USA


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## BobWarfield (Jul 3, 2008)

Brass_Machine  said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea. You would do 4 big and 4 small...
> 
> Everyone up for that?
> 
> Eric



Well darn. That means the fixture I'm building only works for 4 parts and I have to figure out a new fixture for the other 4. No worries, we'll git 'er done.

BW


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## Dick L. (Jul 4, 2008)

I'm going to try some 6061 tool plate for the bearings I'm making. The print calls for hard aluminum or brass. I will be sure to get a good finish so that a polish can be easily achieved. Might even drag the camera out to the shop to document some part of it. I know now how much you all like pictures ;D
                  Dick


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## kvom (Jul 5, 2008)

Looking at the pics in Divided He Ad's engine build thread, I see he made an arbor for turning his flywheel. I am wondering if this is necessary for our flywheels. Areas in which I am ignorant are:

1) Once the flywheel is cut off from the bar, how difficult is it to mount a 3/8" disc in a chuck and get the face square? 

2) If the outer perimeter is polished before being parted off, will the chuck jaws mar the finish when machining the reverse face?


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## Dick L. (Jul 5, 2008)

I think it really depends what you have on hand for tooling. If you have soft top jaws you can approach it totally different . This flywheel doesn't have a full radius rim so it can be done with just the chuck but will take some fudging to get it true. If your chuck isn't dialable you might need to make a stub arbor to hold by the bore for the final OD truing. Faces shouldn't present to much trouble to get parallel. You could leave a slight shoulder on the OD to register the jaws against.Then slip it on a stub arbor and take a final cut to true the OD up.I would save the final polishing for the last step. I'm sure there are others who have crossed this bridge many times and can offer suggestions with yet another and possibly much simpler approach.
        Dick


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## Bogstandard (Jul 5, 2008)

Kvom,

Speaking thru experience, you do all your flywheel truing up first, then do the polishing at the end.

If you look at these two previous posts, they should give you some ideas how to do it.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=1809.0

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=844.0

Hope this helps on your journey

John


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## Dick L. (Jul 5, 2008)

Great idea John, I've never used that tape method but I'm sure it will work very well! I'm learning something new already! ;D Kirk my only suggestion to this would be to face one side of each one to get better adhesion with the tape and surface contact against the jaw faces because the stock I sent is sawcut both sides. Straight but sawcut none the less.
             Dick


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## kvom (Jul 5, 2008)

John,

I had read those posts before but ithe idea didn't stick. I think that's the way to do it. In any case I was plannimng to turn one face before parting off.

On another topic. I was wondering what the mathematical description of the cam would be, so performed the following "analysis" this morning.

Define _L_ as half the length of the piston rod + fork/wheel, _S_ as the stroke the piston makes from either side of the center, and _D_ as the distance of the cam from the center of rotation. Using standard notation, where 0 degrees is the positive X axis and angle increases counter-clockwise, we see that at 0 and 180 degrees D=L from the center of rotation. At 90 D=L+S, and at 270 degrees D=L-S. So the arc formula should be D=L+S*sin(angle).

Looking at the drawings we see that L=1+1/16" and S=1/4".

Given this it would seem possible to draw the cam using a good protractor and rule (i.e., plot points and join with a french curve).


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## te_gui (Oct 3, 2008)

OK, folks. I have 16 blocks cut and drilled ready for profiling. As best I recall that covers the number of folks participating. Can someone confirm please? Also there was some discussion early on about putting a tag on the bottom, that would require a recess to be machined in. I don't recall the consensus but speak now or never. I haven't seen much chatter on this lately, either everyone is done or procrastinating even worse then I. 

Brian


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## GailInNM (Oct 7, 2008)

Brian,
It does not look like anyone really cares about any form of name plates. I was waiting for some response, but we did not get any response the last time you and I asked about it. I guess just leave them off. 

The cam rings have been finish machined for a while, but I still have to polish them and then fill the logo in the billboard on top. Only an evenings work to do that. I will wait until there is a movie I want to watch on TV and do it then. That is when I do most of my mindless type hand work. I turn off the TV when I turn on any power tool. 

Gail in NM,USA


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## Brass_Machine (Oct 7, 2008)

I wouldn't mind name plates... but for some reason I thought Powderkeg was doing them ???


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## GailInNM (Oct 7, 2008)

Brass-Machine,
It could be that Powder Keg was going to do some. I don't remember it, but some days I don't remember my name until after the first pot of coffee. 

Brian and I had gotten off topic discussing them in the cam ring thread starting about post #9.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2714.0
Wrong place for the discussion to be, but it happened. 

In any event, I am game for anything that anyone wants to do that way if it is helpful. I suspect that Powder Keg still has his hands full on the domestic front.

Gail in NM,USA


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## ksouers (Oct 7, 2008)

Has anyone heard from PK lately? Hope everyone is doing well


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## Cedge (Oct 7, 2008)

Kevin
Just spoke with him and the guy just hasn't enough hours in his day. He said he'd drop in when he can and let everyone know he and the wife are doing fine.

Steve


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## ksouers (Oct 7, 2008)

Steve,
Understood. Having been through it myself the year after was, well, not pretty. Lots of ups and downs emotionally. 
Thanks for the update.

Glad to hear everything is fine.


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## BigBore (Dec 18, 2009)

Has this thread been moved or has the project been halted. Just curious. That #46 looks cool.


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