# Werowance attempts Upshur Vertical Single



## werowance (Oct 29, 2019)

decided on the Upshur Vertical Single as my next engine,  bout the plans studied them a few days then got started last night.

ordered most of my material yesterday and last night the only thing I found that was close enough was the top plate for the engine.  plans called for brass or steel but I had a piece of bronze that I had made flat for the Webster engine gas tank but didn't use.  so milled it square and thinner, then removed the tool marks with a little sand paper on a sheet of glass.  I hope to have my aluminum plate any day now as it wasn't shipping from very far away.

some of these pics you may have seen in my Webster build where I heated and pressed the bronze bushing to make it flat.


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## werowance (Oct 29, 2019)

on my ordering of stock I do have a question.  the rod offers 2 different types. a split rod where the rod splits so it can bolt to the crankshaft - required if doing a 1 piece crank shaft and a single piece rod - no split no bolts that can be used only if you do a built up crank.  now in my opinion no matter the style of crankshaft I end up doing I still want the 2 piece rod.  either of the 2 style rods do not have a bearing in them in the plans.  on either end. 

so I'm thinking either 2024 aluminum as the plans only say "aluminum" as the material.  or a bronze or brass split bearing for the main and a round press in for the piston side.   how does one prevent spinning of the main bearing on  a split rod?  lock tight?  or will 2024 aluminum be fine without a bearing?


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 29, 2019)

On a rod with two piece thin wall bushings, you can always drill the rod and push in a short pin, then put a corresponding hole in the bushing half that sets in the rod. That will keep the half bushing in the rod from rotating, and in turn will keep the half bushing in the rod cap from turning.


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## werowance (Oct 29, 2019)

that's a good idea.  the pin could be bronze or aluminum and lock tighted in right


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 29, 2019)

Yes.---Brian


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## jlchapman (Nov 3, 2019)

I'll be watching this.  I have the plans, just have not got around to building it.


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## werowance (Nov 4, 2019)

got a little bit started last night.  Wife and I went out of town for our anniversary and got back home Sunday afternoon.  in the mail box waiting on me was some 1215 crs for the cylinder, some 6061 aluminum for the body and some ball bearings (an upgrade, the plans don't call for them) for the cam shaft.  plans just call for the shaft to ride in the drilled holes in the aluminum side plates.  got the aluminum cut up and glued/clamped together with locktight so I could machine as 1 piece and the 1215 cut to usable length and chucked up, faced and cut deep enough to be past the skin. (really wasn't much "skin" on the outer layer) and then had to call it quits for the night.


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## werowance (Nov 6, 2019)

got a little done on the cylinder.  outside major diameter cut and drilled just big enough to get my boring bar started last night


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## werowance (Nov 7, 2019)

last night got the minor outside dia cut as well as bored to about .726 which is what my plug gauge (a socket that measures .726) says.   ill switch to a real bore gauge tonight when I start back on it.
now when I say I got the minor outside dia cut,  the plans originally call for aluminum press on fins but I am going with a solid 1 piece cylinder.  so on the fins I should be able to cut them deeper - as deep as the minor diameter as the base of the cylinder is thus giving me more surface area for cooling.  fin depth would be the same outside diameter as the base outside diameter.  does this sound ok?

I don't know that I have ever used 1215 cold roled steel before but it cuts pretty nice - not as nice as 12L14 but I like it.  also leaves a finish as good as 12L14.  and its a lot cheaper.  I was going to use 1144 but they cancled my order stating that it was mislabeled in their bin and when they pulled it to cut it found out it was misslabled.  so he gave me a good price on 1215.  much cheaper than either the 1144 or 12L14 would have been.


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## CFLBob (Nov 7, 2019)

Just a comment so that I get the update emails and can follow your build.  That 1215 steel sure does look really beautiful, though.  That's worth a comment.


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## werowance (Nov 8, 2019)

and we have a cylinder now.  will lap it a little before soldering it to the top plate and then finish laping it afterwards just incase there is any residue or something left over from the soldering.

only had to grind my parting tool 3 times to get it right lol.  kept over grinding it to thin


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## awake (Nov 8, 2019)

Beautiful! I have never worked with 1215, so I looked it up. It sounds like it is alloyed with sulfur and phosphorous to make a free-machining steel - basically similar to 12L14, but without the lead, so it is just a bit less easy to machine, but far more machinable than 1018. And as you have demonstrated, finishes beautifully! I look forward to seeing this engine continue to take shape!


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## Johno1958 (Nov 8, 2019)

Good job and I must say the finish is fantastic.


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## Art K (Nov 8, 2019)

werowance,
I haven't been on this forum for a while but saw you were starting to build the Upshur Vertical single. This was my first engine. Mine has run great for years and I took it apart this summer to do a rebuild  on it.





I used the stock I had. This is what I found when I dissassembled it. I am planning to replace the bearings as well as the crank and rod. I am planning to use a bronze bushing this time. It's about .04 oblong and also the crank is undersized. I don't remember what steel I used but the new one will be 1144. Here is my earlier article on HMEM.
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/my-first-engine.18599/#post-245774
The way I had it set up it would spin 7500 rpm I used a fractional bearing for the cam and metric for the crank. Pulled out the inner seal on the inside and used splash lube.  I had a leaded steel sleeve in the aluminum cylinder. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Art


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## werowance (Nov 12, 2019)

Thanks Johno,  the rod you show is one I had saw earlier and why I questioned the non bronze or brass bearing for the bottom of the rod or whether I might should use 2024 aluminum for it?  what aluminum did you use?



Art K said:


> werowance,
> I haven't been on this forum for a while but saw you were starting to build the Upshur Vertical single. This was my first engine. Mine has run great for years and I took it apart this summer to do a rebuild  on it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 12, 2019)

Werowance--if you plan on putting a bushing insert in the big end of the rod, use 660 bronze. It machines well and can be purchased in round rods so there is very little waste. Don't use oilite bronze, as it will wear away quickly due to the reversing load on it.


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## werowance (Nov 12, 2019)

this weekend I didn't get much done, managed to make a lap,  first picture you will see I have it blued up and marked in quarters,  I drilled and taped with a taper tap then sawed it length wise to make the 4 quarters.  the taper of the threads end about mid way down the rod so as when a bolt is screwed down that far it start spreading the quarters out.  some 800 grit laping compound and the cylinder is almost finished - 2nd picture.  I will do the final lap once soldered to the top plate.  and third picture is where I got the hole bored in the top plate for the cylinder to be soldered into.  the piece of hss tool bit is just to hold it up for the picture.


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## werowance (Nov 12, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Werowance--if you plan on putting a bushing insert in the big end of the rod, use 660 bronze. It machines well and can be purchased in round rods so there is very little waste. Don't use oilite bronze, as it will wear away quickly due to the reversing load on it.




what about using bronze for the entire rod?  to much weight being thrown around maybe?  I just see it done a lot on steam engines but didn't know about this one.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 12, 2019)

Bronze con-rod will work well enough on a low rpm engine. Not good though on anything that revs over 1000 rpm. I used to machine bronze inserts for the big end of engines I built. I came to realize that if lubricated properly, a 6061 aluminum rod will last far beyond the few hours that any of my engines are actually ran. I have never seen a rod worn the way Art's picture shows.


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## Art K (Nov 12, 2019)

I have to admit to putting a lot of miles on my engine. You might say ran hard & put away wet. I usually change the oil in the spring before the NAMES show, and run it at the Badger Steam & Gas in August then the Zanesville show. I probably used 6061 aluminum originally. I also wasn't afraid to run it at high rpm for prolonged periods of time. I had an incident where I melted my Perry carb when I ran it for about 20 minutes at about 6000 rpm. Heat transfer from the head to the carb about 1.5 inches away did it in. In my next engine I used a sort of fiber reinforced plastic to isolate the heat. I never did have it overheat & seize up. In Brian's defense I think I did get it to idle down to 450 Romo's. I haven't gotten much done lately due to my mill computers death.
Art


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## Art K (Nov 12, 2019)

Sorry, I didn't notice that I was auto corrected. That should be 450 rpm's not romo's.
Art


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## werowance (Nov 14, 2019)

a little more progress.  top plate done and side plates started as a pair last night


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## werowance (Nov 18, 2019)

it was a wonderful weekend, warm and sunny for mid November in Virginia. so for that reason I didn't spend much time inside the shop, instead I helped my brother saw barn siding on the sawmill and did as much as I could outside.   that said I did finish up the side plates with the exception of the slot for the cam gear and the hole for the oil breather.  I will wait until I am a little further along to make those cuts incase I need to adjust them any.  the locktight held up well and both pieces were cut as one then heated to separate. I used the mini kant twist clamps to keep them held together as well during machining.  you will see the heated locktight on one side and the other piece I cleaned it up.

Art K,  I believe it was your build who said you moved the oil breather because of the mess it made?  do you  have some pictures of where you re-located it to or suggestions that I might consider on my build for relocating it?


Art K said:


> werowance,
> I haven't been on this forum for a while but saw you were starting to build the Upshur Vertical single. This was my first engine. Mine has run great for years and I took it apart this summer to do a rebuild  on it.
> I used the stock I had. This is what I found when I dissassembled it. I am planning to replace the bearings as well as the crank and rod. I am planning to use a bronze bushing this time. It's about .04 oblong and also the crank is undersized. I don't remember what steel I used but the new one will be 1144. Here is my earlier article on HMEM.
> https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/my-first-engine.18599/#post-245774
> ...


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## Art K (Nov 18, 2019)

I moved it back to where it should have been in the first place. I originally didn't like the location, thought it cluttered up the side of the engine and moved it behind the cam, the worst place I could have come up with I might add. All the oil the rod picked up went right up the breather. It does make an excellent oil change hole though.
Art


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## Art K (Nov 18, 2019)

Looking at the last photo, if your aluminum stock is thicker than Hamilton specs you might want to make sure the rod clears it. As my redesign, the crank cleared but not with the rod installed. It is quite tight inside there. The .040" oblong in the rod was enough that the rod didn't quite clear the cylinder and the cam, worn as it was.
Art


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## werowance (Nov 19, 2019)

Art K said:


> Looking at the last photo, if your aluminum stock is thicker than Hamilton specs you might want to make sure the rod clears it. As my redesign, the crank cleared but not with the rod installed. It is quite tight inside there. The .040" oblong in the rod was enough that the rod didn't quite clear the cylinder and the cam, worn as it was.
> Art



aluminum stock is the thickness the plans call for.  the top plate is within allowable thickness but not as thick as maximum thickness.  but the side plates are .250.

and on the note of side and front/back plates, last night I was squaring up the front/back and managed to get them wrong.  must have cocked in my vice or something. one side was 1.997 and the other 2.010  a very noticible difference when compared to the sides.  no saving those.  so I glued up 2 more and clamped them last night and went to bed. 

also I realized the oil drain hole which is labled breather side which I mistook for just breather was on the side plate which I could have done that drill/thread already.  so its the back plate that has the breather hole.  will have to read on and see how the breather is attached as there are no threads for that hole.  I guess just lock tighted in.


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## Art K (Nov 19, 2019)

If the breather is like mine it may just be pressed in with loctite as insurance.
Art


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## werowance (Dec 2, 2019)

Art K said:


> Looking at the last photo, if your aluminum stock is thicker than Hamilton specs you might want to make sure the rod clears it.
> Art



Art,  I stand corrected,  the side plates were .250 and the plans called for .125 as I discovered this weekend.  so I milled them down to the .125 as called for.  Thank you for pointing that out to me.  I thought the plans called for .250 all the way around.

I havnt had much time in the shop lately.  Truck repairs (still on going) and thanksgiving and such.  but this weekend I managed to get the front and back plates made, the side plates milled to correct thickness and a bottom plate cut and squared up.  on the front and rear plates I plan to drill and ream those while bolted together to the sides and top / bottom as if the crank case was built from solid.  I figure I will get a better line bore that way.  bottom plate is .313 thick where the plans called for .250 but said could be thicker.   my ball bearings from boca bearings arrived and for a pack of 10 was cheaper than I could order a single one on ebay from them.


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## Art K (Dec 2, 2019)

Yeah we had 13 people in our house for a good chunk of time Fri -Sat. It was good to have all the in-laws in town that we usually visit instead. It's also good to have the house back to normal. Good luck getting the truck sorted out, Its never fun to have vehicle problems.
I think I had some misconceived notion they were .157 I don't see a problem with the plates being thicker you just have to compensate for it. Were you going to use bearings on the cam and crank? or just the cam. I used an 8mm ID  bearing on my crank so that I didn't have to push it on the whole length of the shaft, and I could still use the .3125 shaft size. The beauty of this hobby is that you can modify it any way you want, or not.


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## werowance (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm using bearings for the cam and crank.  the boca are for the crank and for the cam I'm using the same rc car bearings I used for for the piston rod on the Webster that I did.  (which were not in the plans but I managed to find some small enough for).   truck is back together and at the alignment shop this morning and after that should all be done...  I hope anyway.  ball joints, tie rod ends etc.  then the change oil notice came on this morning on the way to the alignment shop.  guess Ill be back underneath it again this weekend for a little while lol.


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## Art K (Dec 3, 2019)

I have to admit that I've done that job before but on a 140 series Volvo more than 2 decades back. Were you planning to have splash lube and pull the inside seals out? I would suggest making up a tool to push in the seals especially the id ones on the crank & cam. I must admit to ruining the cam bearings on my Val engine and having to send for more from Boca. Mainly so you are only pressing on the appropriate bearing race. Vals cam bearings are 5mm ID 10mm OD so very small & delicate, It didn't take much to have them notchy and glitchy.
Art


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## werowance (Dec 4, 2019)

on the cam bearings I have already attempted to remove the seal on one of them and ruined it.  fortunately they come in 3 per pack on those.  I may test 1 of the crank bearings as well but if it doesn't want to remove ill just leave the seals in place. maybe pin prick  a few small holes in it to allow oil seepage?

on another note, I was shoping for some material to attempt my first 1 piece crank from.  seems 1144 is the material suggested in a lot of builds I see.  on that note I don't seem to be finding 1144 in flat bar stock on my initial quick shoping search for it.  if it doesn't come in flat stock - I don't want to mill down round stock to flat then what other material might be suggested as a substitution?


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## Art K (Dec 4, 2019)

I have to say that 1144 is the preferred choice for a crank. I made mine with round stock and rather than adding the woodruff key Hamilton suggests I machined it from round adding the counter weights.




This is a photo of my crank, connecting rod, piston. I had crankcase limitations so I needed the narrowed portion on the outside diameter. I think that if you do it in round with some counter weight you won't regret it.
Art


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## werowance (Dec 5, 2019)

drilled the holes in the base last night and started looking at the radiused corners.  not sure how i can do those?  i mean i can take this new to me used set of radius gauges and mark the radius in blue and use the sander to make them but thats not really a machined true radius.  now i realize that the radius are optional and purely for looks but how would you radius them in production if it needed to be precise?  normally i would have had the hole drilled exactly center of what the radius should be and just use a dowel in a plate and move back and fourth and mill it that way but the hole isnt center of the radius as per plans.   i guess what i am saying is yeah ill probably take the easy way and sand it till it looks good but what are the more profesional ways it should be done that you all can tell me so i can learn?


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 5, 2019)

I have a big stationary vertical belt sander that is used to make that kind of radius. It takes a bit of practice and a keen eye but all of my radiused parts are done that way. If you are looking for a true radius as per the drawing, use a drafting template with a 1/4" hole in it, position it adjacent to the two sides and use a scriber to mark the radius first.


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## werowance (Dec 5, 2019)

ah ok i see almost like drilling the hole dead center of the radius but using another sacrafical plate and attaching this part to that plate and drilling the hole in that sacrafical plate to pivit on the dowel


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## awake (Dec 5, 2019)

Radius could be machined precisely using a rotary table, but it would be a lot of set up - resetting for each corner. Alternately, some DRO's have the ability to guide you in approximating a radius using a series of cuts - or you can calculate the positions and do them manually, but again very tedious. The resulting approximation needs only a bit of filing or sanding to smooth out the ridges.

Of course, there's always CNC ...


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 5, 2019)

No, I do it freehand. I will post a picture of my belt sander and that may make things a bit clearer. I built this many years ago when I was building hotrod chassis, for cleaning up the edges of flame cut brackets.


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## werowance (Dec 5, 2019)

i wasnt saying free hand when i was describing what i took from your post Brian.  what i took from it is to make another plate just like the one im working with except on the corners move that hole to the center of that radius.  then bolt the real part to that plate using the other 4 screw holes.  then i have a plate i put in my mill vice which has a rod or dowel sticking up that i use to pivit on with that hole that is drilled dead center of the radius.  that way i get a precise enough radius.  ive seen you do it but i just cant find a picture to describe what im talking about.  i to also have a belt sander with disk sander on the side with a table that i have used before and also i can use the same type of setup with a pivit pin on it as well but its just easier done in the mill vice and do it there.  i hope i can find a picture soon and post it.


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## awake (Dec 5, 2019)

werowance said:


> i wasnt saying free hand when i was describing what i took from your post Brian.  what i took from it is to make another plate just like the one im working with except on the corners move that hole to the center of that radius.  then bolt the real part to that plate using the other 4 screw holes.  then i have a plate i put in my mill vice which has a rod or dowel sticking up that i use to pivit on with that hole that is drilled dead center of the radius.  that way i get a precise enough radius.  ive seen you do it but i just cant find a picture to describe what im talking about.  i to also have a belt sander with disk sander on the side with a table that i have used before and also i can use the same type of setup with a pivit pin on it as well but its just easier done in the mill vice and do it there.  i hope i can find a picture soon and post it.


Yes, that should work. Mind you, Brian can get all four corners finished on that monster of a sander before you or I could finish preparing the fixturing plate.


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## Art K (Dec 5, 2019)

I don't think its cheating if you get the desired result. I have a die filer at work that has come in very handy to make valve brackets. prior to that I was filing them by hand. If it was production it would probably be profitable to machine them but for a one off? Use a radius gauge scribe a line and sand to the line.
Art


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2019)

The "rule" in parts built for customers, and parts for our own home hobby use is " If its critical to making the part work, aim for dead nuts accuracy.---If it's cosmetic, make it look good." To spend countless hours setting up to make a purely cosmetic feature is a waste of your time. ---Brian


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## werowance (Dec 6, 2019)

yeah, hes pretty darn good with that sander, but my problem is that im not that good with lets call it coloring inside the lines,  i always go to far or not far enough lol thus none of the corners would probably look the same.  now where did i put my crayons


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## werowance (Dec 10, 2019)

slow going but a little progress.  locktighted the side and end plates together using 123 blocks and a square on my imporvisded surface plate and allowed to dry,  turned it over and repeated with the other plate.  once all dry i added some super glue for extra hold on the inside seams.  then used a transfer punch as plans call for to mark my drill holes.  then last night i drilled 1 plate and tapped the 4-40 threads on one side and called it a night.

the first photo shows me gluing the front plate on and the back plate held about half way up to keep the sides from falling in as the bottom was glued.


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## Art K (Dec 10, 2019)

I must admit seeing how that is going together that I'm sort of glad that I didn't have that stock on hand. That does seem like a complicated process.
Art


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## TonyM (Dec 11, 2019)

I would file or use a sanding belt. If you want to keep the corners the same you may want to invest in a small set of radius gauges or simply make a one off gauge to keep the corners the same


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## werowance (Dec 11, 2019)

TonyM said:


> I would file or use a sanding belt. If you want to keep the corners the same you may want to invest in a small set of radius gauges or simply make a one off gauge to keep the corners the same


I actually have a set of gauges but I just have bad luck with freehand sanding on the belt or disk table sander I have.  I often don't get matching results even trying my best to follow the scribed lines.  sort of what I was joking about "coloring outside of the lines" and the "crayon" joke I was making.  but if the jig idea doesn't work out for me I will probably just freehand it anyway and try my best at it.


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## werowance (Dec 11, 2019)

well heres 8 holes drilled and tapped.  no drill or tap was harmed in this operation.  although the drill did start to seize on one of the holes because I was hogging to much and not removing the drill enough to clear the swarf. 

only 8 more to do - 4 on top and 4 on the bottom.  then once all screwed together ill do the line drill it for the crank and cam shafts.


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## werowance (Dec 12, 2019)

not able to be in the garage machining right now but do have access to cad so I thought id draw the insulator block for the points and try 3d printing it since it needs to be made from plastic anyway.  its a small simple part and hopfully it will print good


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## petertha (Dec 12, 2019)

werowance said:


> I don't know that I have ever used 1215 cold roled steel before but it cuts pretty nice - not as nice as 12L14 but I like it.  also leaves a finish as good as 12L14.  and its a lot cheaper.  I was going to use 1144 but they cancled my order stating that it was mislabeled in their bin and when they pulled it to cut it found out it was misslabled.  so he gave me a good price on 1215.  much cheaper than either the 1144 or 12L14 would have been.



Where do you get 12L15 that is a lot cheaper than 12L14? I hadn't realized such an alloy existed.


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## werowance (Dec 12, 2019)

ebay.  lowcostmetals was the person.  I didn't realize it either.  I  just told them what I was doing and what I was looking for and they suggested 1215  (note there is no L in 1215)  its not leaded but to me it cut every bit as easy and the finish it leaves was definitely as good in my opinion as 12L14


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## Art K (Dec 12, 2019)

I didn't use his points set up. I made a cam to fit where his flat sided cam is. Then I  made a disc that I mounted mid 70"s Nisson points on. That way I  got the cam in the ball park and adjusted the disc with the points to fine tune. I dont know how close to Hamilton's design you are trying to keep it but, buying a set of points might simplify your life
Art


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## werowance (Dec 16, 2019)

well i gave the belt sander a try.  turned out ok.  didn't realize just how small of a radius it was.  marked it with my gauge and put it on the disk sander table
I then finished drilling and tapping then I soldered the cylinder on.
the photo of the cylinder appears to have not stuck to the steel however it did.  it just all ran down and made a nice ring on the bottom side as there was just a tad bit of a gap for it to pool in.  I made the soldering jig like plans called for and it was nice and flush against a smoothe block of aluminum so it didn't flow past and run all over the underside but just a full ring around the cylinder.   I used the stay brite solder as per plans instead of silver solder.    sill need to do some clean up on it though.


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## CFLBob (Dec 17, 2019)

Looks good!  

Don't know about you, but I find that trick is one where I get better with practice.    A couple of corners on a piece of scrap right before I do the real one helps.


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## werowance (Dec 19, 2019)

very slow moving. i cant seem to get more than 10 to 15 mins in the garage after work.  i cant wait for next year to get here and everything go back to normal.....   anyway i managed to get the crank shaft bearing holes drilled and reamed last night is all i managed to get done since Sunday.


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## Peter Twissell (Dec 19, 2019)

Cutters are available to create radii. I have a couple of them for small radii, but for anything above about 3/16" I set up on the rotary table.
I have also used the X/Z locii method for both milling and turning. I don't find it tedious, but then I only machine parts when I feel like it. That way, every cut on every part is done in the right frame of mind. Never forget, this is a hobby and as soon as it feels like a chore, it's time to walk away and make a cup of tea, coffee or whatever you prefer.


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## werowance (Dec 19, 2019)

i dont look at as a chore,  i really enjoy it.  but this time of year i am pulled in many different directions, some of those directions i do enjoy but most i would just rather be in the garage enjoying the peace and quiet - with the exception of hearing my equipment run is all.   but yes i understand what you are saying.  sort of like my rule of when i almost thorw a wrench across the garage in frustration then its time to step a way and walk for a while.  i live in the country and have woods, mountains etc all right off my back yard pretty much. so a walk is my cup of tea usually


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## CFLBob (Dec 19, 2019)

I read that "cant seem to get more than 10 to 15 mins in the garage after work" as " 'tis the season to be busy"  Pretty busy here, too.


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## werowance (Dec 20, 2019)

last night was much better.  got the rest of those holes drilled, reamed, tapped etc.  only 1 more hole to go on the side for the oil drain plug.


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## Art K (Dec 20, 2019)

Yes it is the busy time of the year, but you are making progress.
Art


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## werowance (Dec 23, 2019)

had part of the day Saturday to play in the garage and made the flywheel and rope start pully but before i went out i also 3d printed the insulator block.  the screws in the insulator block are just there to test fit only.  i am going to try to make the points as per plans instead of using off the shelf points like in the webster build.  also debured some of the drill / ream holes which left a large bur on the exit side of them.  6061-t6 aluminum is what the side plates were made out of.  seemed a bit gummier or softer than the same material i used on the webster. maybe just me and its not a problem to debur,  just an observation.


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## werowance (Dec 23, 2019)

and the pulley/flywheel


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## Art K (Dec 23, 2019)

Did you make the flywheel in one piece?
Art


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## werowance (Dec 24, 2019)

no 2 piece.  plans call for it that way.  the flywheel and pulley get pressed on a bushing which holds the 2 together and then that bushing is reamed to fit the crankshaft.  i prefer to make a dbit reamer out of left over material from the crankshaft to ream the flywheel or in this case bushing so that i get a spot on fit with no wobble.  i usually take a piece of emory cloth to that dbit before its actually cut into a dbit so its diameter is slightly smaller thus making a tight fit reamed hole for bushing or flywheel so it doesnt wobble.


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## werowance (Dec 24, 2019)

thinking ahead here but in the plans,  the head is made of aluminum and the valve seat is actually cut right into the aluminum with a press in brass guide tube but the seat is part of the aluminum head itself. so i was thinking about this.  1. is aluminum acceptable for a valve seat?  if so great no problem.  if not then i have a very large chunk of bronze,  almost a firelog chunk size of it i picked up dirt cheap.  would bronze be acceptable to make the head out of thus having a bronze valve seat?  i suppose i could also cut a piece of brass and press it in to make the seat out of as well if the aluminum is not acceptable.


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## Art K (Dec 25, 2019)

I did use the aluminum as the valve seat. I had no problem with that, as I probably said earlier "run hard put away wet". I didn't see the point in doing the 3 part flywheel, so I did it one piece with taper lock mounting to the crank. I need to make a new one to incorporate a one way bearing for the starter & maybe a pulley to run a generator.
Art


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## josodl1953 (Dec 26, 2019)

I think it depends on the aluminium quality you are using. The original Edwards radial 5 design specifies both valve guide and seat to be machined directly in the 7075T6 aluminium heads. So yes, aluminium valve seats are definitely an option if you can machine them in one operation with the valve guides. However , I found it easier to use the valve cage construction with the valve seat and guide machined   in one operation from bronze as a separate insert mounted with Loctite or a shrink/press fit in the cylinder head. It is up to you to choose  whatever  suits you best.

Jos


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## werowance (Dec 27, 2019)

ok, so bronze is acceptable as a valve seat.  wasn't sure as I figured bronze may be softer than 360 brass ?  on that note I don't even have a chunk of aluminum large enough for the head but I do have a chunk of bronze large enough.  so I may use that for the head instead of aluminum.

ive not gotten much done but I did cut the cam shaft rod as well as part of the crankshaft rod. pretty much just had to use emory cloth to bring it down very slightly so it would slide into the ball bearings.  then I looked around for the square stock needed for the crank and found a stick of unknown steel that I picked up several years ago to make feather/wedges out of to remove some rocks in my yard.  it started out as a 20 foot stick and is now down to about 10 or 15 feet long.  I cut a couple slugs off of that and will glue them together to make final size cuts and drill / ream operations.   I was going to try a 1 piece crank but since I cant get stress proof in square stock and a chunk large enough make a square out of round would be costly and time consuming so since I had the square stock in hand I'm going to try and go that route with it.  the bearings in the pics are just barely pushed in.  ill do the final push in with some locktight when the time comes.


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## werowance (Dec 27, 2019)

and a question,  since I'm going to switch to a built up crank,  plans for the built up version call for silver solder which I am so so at doing but the high heat needed to do it concerns me about warpage. I saw a different build where it was pinned (as my plans say to do as well) but instead of silver brazed it was simply lock tighted and pinned. anyone have any good or bad experience doing it that way?  then another question, I know silver solder comes in at least 3 grades,  hard, medium and soft.  the soft is still hard compared to regular solder and still needs a lot of heat.  was wondering if there is a grade that is even softer and lower heat but not as soft as plumber solder that might work?


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## werowance (Dec 28, 2019)

today I did some experimenting with silver soldering and a built up crank.  this has probably been done before or is a bad thing I don't know but the experiment turned out well.  the grove in the rod is way to large and was just simply done as a quick and dirty test piece.   but here is what I want to do.  drill and ream all holes, insert rods and position to where they need to be.  cross drill like Im going to pin them.  then disassemble, cut grooves in the rods at the cross drill just enough to bend silver solder into.   flux (after all cleaning was done) and then insert rods back into the square stock with silver oring bent into the grove.  then into the cross drill hole where a pin would  be inserted I stick a piece of the silver solder into that hole.  hole was measured / drilled just for this silver wire.

results on test piece were great.   not runs or puddles.  everything  still nice and square etc.  I tried to cut an inside grove like an internal  snap ring grove for the solder and had problems so instead I cut the groove on the rod and all went very nice.  again this is a test piece and the grove and such will be cut  with a little more care and accuracy.

I cut a countersink in the outer hole to let a little silver pool up but I didn't put enough silver sticking out so it ran on down in the hole and filled the excess grove that I had cut.  that grove also had silver solder wrapped around  it but the groove was way bigger than it needed to be since I didn't bother to realy measure for a test.  so next time the grove will be cut more precise.  the countersink hole will have a little more silver solder sticking out of it to pool up and flow down through the cross drill hole and ring.
no puddled up solder around  the important edges to file or cut off and clean up.  just clean up the nasty flux.


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## werowance (Dec 28, 2019)

edited becuase of double post of previous one. something went wrong with my internet


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## werowance (Dec 28, 2019)

edited becuase of double post of previous one.  something went wrong with my internet


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## werowance (Jan 3, 2020)

so here we start with the crank, getting it ready to solver solder.  the 3 flecks of aluminum are just spacers to keep the width for the rod correct when clamped.  the reamed holes are very nice and tight.  was dificult to get them pushed through by hand,  i hope that keeps things straight when brazing.


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## awake (Jan 3, 2020)

Looking good!


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## Cogsy (Jan 3, 2020)

werowance said:


> so here we start with the crank, getting it ready to solver solder.  the 3 flecks of aluminum are just spacers to keep the width for the rod correct when clamped.  the reamed holes are very nice and tight.  was dificult to get them pushed through by hand,  i hope that keeps things straight when brazing.



STOP! Hopefully I caught you in time before you soldered it. If you clamp against the aluminum spacers you will have a problem with the spacers melting as you silver solder and your spacing will get all messed up. Yes, speaking from personal experience here...


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## minh-thanh (Jan 3, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> . If you clamp against the aluminum spacers you will have a problem with the spacers melting as you silver solder and your spacing will get all messed up. Yes, speaking from personal experience here...


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## werowance (Jan 3, 2020)

Thank you.  glad I put it up on the shelf last night and called it quits.  my thought was the solder wouldn't stick to the aluminum like a steel spacer would if I had any of it run out or something.  but ill change them to steel spacers tonight or this weekend before I solder.  I really appreciate it Cogsy.

been trying to think of an easy way to keep it all squeezed together when brazing.  what do you think about some steel rebar wire twisted around it in 3 places like where the spacers are?  do you think it would get to hot and break?  I'm sure copper wire would.

its so small but I could get a little bite on the bottom with the old drill press vice I often use just for brazing in but then the top would need something to hold it so it doesn't make a V shape from clamping at the bottom only.


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## CFLBob (Jan 3, 2020)

In jewelry making, steel wire is pretty commonly used to hold things together for silver soldering.  Stuff like this:
https://www.riogrande.com/product/stainless-steel-round-wire-for-handling-and-binding/503076gp
(just looked it up for an example - the stuff I have isn't stainless and was treated with something to leave a brown finish)


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## werowance (Jan 3, 2020)

Bob, thanks for that. now that I think of it I believe the wife has some stainless steel wire like that in the house. ill have to read the label and make sure what its made of and maybe even do a test run on something else with it.  since I posted earlier I also thought about some stainless steel zip ties I have.  they look like the kind you use for cv joint boot repair on a car that I used to re clamp down a heat shield on an exhaust pipe on the car.  might give one of those a test burn as well to see.


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## JohnBDownunder (Jan 4, 2020)

Hi Werowance,
    You said _"the reamed holes are very nice and tight. was difficult to get them pushed through by hand, i hope that keeps things straight when brazing."
My thought was if that is true where is the solder going to go? My understanding is that it needs a few thou clearance. I would possibly try a small chamfer on the hole ends and a few strokes with a small triangular file edge in three spots around the bore. Shouldn't affect the fit but give the solder somewhere to go.
  Others with more experience than I will guide you IF you have not already soldered.
Looks good so far though.
Regards, 
John B_


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## Art K (Jan 5, 2020)

I can't add much as far as silver soldering as all I have done is a brass muffler. But you do have to get it hotter than you would expect before it actually flows. Personally I didn't like the idea of a built up crank and avoided it. I also wanted counter weights and felt Hamilton's suggestion of bolting on counter weights was just asking for it to fly apart at the most inappropriate time(such as any time it's running). I tuned mine so that in it's prime it would run 7500 RPM. That being said, if your intention was to run it at a sedate pace you should have no problems with it. Mine did run as low an RPM as 450. You could make your flat stock longer and that would act as a counterweight.
Art


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## werowance (Jan 6, 2020)

hi John,  i dont have a pic of the real piece but here is one of a test run i did to see if it would work.  what i did was cut a groove right where the cross drill would be from the top and then in that groove i bent silver solder around most of it and cut in 2 halves so that i could still get a piece of wire straight down the cross drill hole. so basicly there was a oring of solder on the inside as well as instead of a steel pin i used a piece of silver solder in the pin hole.  below is a picture of the test piece without the solder and before pushing it together.  the result was a nice clean part that when hit with a hammer on the end to see if it would hold up.  it didnt budge.


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## werowance (Jan 6, 2020)

this weekend i got the crank web radius cut and all brazed together.  i put in the shops easy bake oven (yard sale toaster oven) for 400 deg F for 4 hours.  dont know if that was necesary but wanted to hopefully relieve any stress built up from the brazing before i cut the center dowel out.  no picture after the braze because i left it all clamped up and put it in the oven.  4 hours later it was bed time so i just turned it off and left it for the night.  im sure there will be alot of cleanup tonight on it.


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## werowance (Jan 6, 2020)

hmm  after my ios update on my phone my pictures arent working.  let me try it from the hmem iphone app instead of pc


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## werowance (Jan 6, 2020)

the last photo is all solder put in the grooves as well as some sticking out of the cross drill holes.  right before being clamped together with steel spacers.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 6, 2020)

Werowance--I wish you all the luck in the world with what you are doing. I have built one or two crankshafts that were made from pieces silver soldered together. The ended up with far more run-out than is acceptable. One piece crankshafts from 1144 stress proof steel are scary to machine, but have a far better chance of "running true"---and if they don't run true. you can put one end in the 3 jaw chuck and tap the other end around with a mallet until it does run true. Or---Make the crankshafts from pieces Loctited and pinned together. I found that the heat from silver soldering put stresses into the crankshafts that never come out even, and the cranks don't run true. Let us know how you do with that one.---Brian


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## werowance (Jan 7, 2020)

well so far not to good.  there was some seepage of silver braze on the piston rod dowel of the crankshaft which also stuck the spacers to it.  i managed to get them loose by spot heating the spacers but there is silver braze that will need to be cleaned up.  on top of that im out of emory cloth so i just put it to the side and quit last night.  its probably all wobbly to i dont know yet.  ill try to test it tonight and just see how wobbly it is before trying to clean it up which i dont know if i can or not without ruining the "true" of the dowel the piston rod runs on.  

lock tight and pinning does sound easier to me if that will hold up which sounds like it has for you Brian.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 7, 2020)

Werowance--I'm up to 30 engines now, and the only crankshaft to break was one of my very early silver soldered ones. Pinning and loctiting works. One piece works.  I have had a few crankshafts that had enough run-out to make visibly wobbling flywheels--(I hate that).


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## JohnBDownunder (Jan 8, 2020)

I do recall seeing the test piece photo thanks.
    Loctite does seem to be the model machinist's magic glue and as has been said it certainly avoids distortion and stresses from heating required for hard solder. 
      Seems there are many forms of Loctite and I have a loctite PDF of some 48 pages of what to use where and naturally I cannot find the download link for it or I would post it for those interested.
Oh Well,
John B


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## Cogsy (Jan 8, 2020)

Back when I sold Loctite products we were told 680 was to be considered 'permanent' assembly and was recommended for fitting bearings to shafts, etc. From the Loctite site:

"_High strength, methacrylate ester acrylic liquid designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where low viscosity is required.
LOCTITE® 680 is a green, high strength, methacrylate ester acrylic liquid designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where low viscosity is required. The product prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. It provides robust curing performance. It works on active metals (e.g. mild steel) and on passive substrates (e.g. stainless steel and plated surfaces)._"

This sounds perfect for assembling a model crankshaft.


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## werowance (Jan 9, 2020)

well I was going to use 638 green.  ill look up 680 and see if I can get some of that.

thanks all.

Bryan


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## werowance (Jan 15, 2020)

received the loctite 680 Monday as well as my 1/16 drill rod that i will use to cross pin with.  i glued the 2 pieces together with the 680 and clamped them Monday night so that i could drill and ream them as a single piece last night.  ill have to say that i couldnt tell any difference between the 680 and the 638 other than maybe the color was a little lighter.  but where it counts id have to say it was as strong or as weak as the 638 is.  they popped apart with hardly any effort after i removed the clamp.  now im not sure that 680 is designed for mating 2 flat surfaces together as i read the 638 was more for say a rod through a hole that was a tad oversize.  to be honest for 2 flat surface joining the red permetex locktite i get at the auto parts store works better for me.  

i do plan on using the 680 though for assembly once ready to cross pin and peen the pins though as i feel that it will work well in a situation like that.  

oh and once more note the 680 does have an advertised expiration date on the bottle - which mine expires next year.  whereas i dont see an exp date on my other bottles of locktite.

this is not bashing the 680 or anything cause i know each formula has its own special purpose,  just wanted to share my experience with it.  ill post back once i have the crank done.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 15, 2020)

Werowance--I pay close to $100 for a 1.69 ounce of #638 Loctite, so I use it for everything, and have had no problems with it.---Brian


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## werowance (Jan 16, 2020)

wow, 100.00?  I paid about 30.00 for it.  maybe the difference in US vs CA currency?


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## werowance (Jan 16, 2020)

actually I just looked,  it was 15.00 US for 50 ml which I'm thinking is equivalent to 1.69 ounces right?  and that was for the 638


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## awake (Jan 16, 2020)

weworance, where did you find it for $15? At that price, I'd be tempted. Thus far, I've gone the auto parts store option of Permatex thread locker in blue (medium strength) and red (high strength) - which have been working fine for me for a variety of projects, but I have not (yet) tried them in a model IC engine!


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## werowance (Jan 16, 2020)

ebay,  this is the seller I bought from last time


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 16, 2020)

1.69 ounces is 50 millilitres.  $100 Canadian is $76.62 American. I buy mine through Brafasco, a Canadian nut and bolt company.


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## awake (Jan 16, 2020)

werowance said:


> ebay,  this is the seller I bought from last time
> 
> View attachment 113426



Thanks!


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 16, 2020)

I just ordered the same from Ebay. Cost me $27.45 Canadian.   $10.50 of that is for shipping. That still ends up being far less than what I pay locally.--They seem to be taking Canadian dollar at par.---Brian


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## werowance (Jan 20, 2020)

Got some done on the crank. I don’t have a small enough counter bore for the weights yet but I’ll shop for one.  If u see the zebra stripes one one piece that’s jb weld where it got loose from me radiusing the tips and made some mess. Not enough to scrap. I just filled it like wood putty cause I wanted to


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 20, 2020)

It looks good. Put one end in the chuck and the tip of your dial indicator on the other end which is unsupported and turn the chuck by hand. Let us know what the run-out is.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 20, 2020)

duplicate post


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## werowance (Jan 21, 2020)

ill try to do that tonight.  but what about the runout already in my 3 jaw chuck?  would you put a pice of virgin stock in first and find the runout on it then compare it to the runout on the crank as well and subtract the 2 if there is any difference between the 2?


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## werowance (Jan 21, 2020)

im shopping for a counterbore for the 4-40 screws and not having much luck.  i find some kits that will go down to "#6".  any suggestions on what to search for?  tried #4 and 4-40 counterbore with no luck and just counterbore which gives way to many results.  didnt know if there was another search term or something i need to use.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 21, 2020)

If your chuck runout is greater than 0.003" total indicated runout, you have problems with your lathe. If it has less than .003" total indicated runout, don't worry about it. Just go ahead and measure the crankshaft the way I said.


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## petertha (Jan 21, 2020)

I have tried a few counterbores, good USA brands & crappy clones (the ones with pilot guiding stub on the end). Personally I get no-fuss results with an end mill. Just find the size that gives desired head clearance.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 21, 2020)

It gets even more complicated. You can buy the counterbore tool with two or three different pilot diameters. Look up what the standard clearance is for a #4-40 fastener, then make sure that you buy a counterbore tool with a pilot that fits that hole.  I didn't know about this, and two of the counterbore tools I bought had oversize pilots on them. Since the pilot doesn't do any actual cutting, I was able to mount my heavy duty air die-grinder on the toolpost of my lathe and turn the pilot down to the correct size. If you do like petertha suggests and just plunge with an unpiloted endmill, it will pull itself off center and the counterbore will not be concentric with the bolt hole. Do a web search for cap screw counterbore tool---I just did and there are a dozen different suppliers.


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## werowance (Jan 21, 2020)

Ok just measured crank and test rod.  Crank and test rod made from scanner slide shafts assuming somewhat precision ground

Both done with about half inch in the chuck to far length.  The crank has been made with about an inch overall longer than plans but centered on that for expansion of pulley or something else later

Roughly 3.25” hanging out of chuck 

Test rod measure right at chuck .0025. Results at end of test rod same length out .0035

Same test with crank at same positions. Right at chuck .0025 and at end .004. 

I have digital indicator that will only go .0000


Is this acceptable?


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 21, 2020)

That is excellent results.--Congratulations!!!


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## petertha (Jan 21, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> If you do like petertha suggests and just plunge with an unpiloted endmill, it will pull itself off center and the counterbore will not be concentric with the bolt hole.



Not sure what to say Brian. These are M3 counterbores of almost 0.5" depth, made with an endmill following the 3mm clearance hole. The bolts drop right in place with no off-center issues, the heads fit the cylinder bolt pattern & secondary fixtures. Similarly a 10mm EM was used to drill a concentric flat bottom counterbore for the valve cage, again concentric to the stem pilot drill hole. More material was pre-drilled before the EM in that case but interestingly the EM has to start its cut tangentially to the hemi combustion chamber shape, so one would think a worse condition for potentially setting a drift angle. Same deal with the inlet/exhaust port drilled at a weird angle to the head.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 21, 2020)

Petertha--I wasn't trying to be nasty. What I posted was my experience with using a non piloted endmill to make counterbores. I don't know why it happens, but it happens often enough that I always use piloted counterbore tools.


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## awake (Jan 21, 2020)

Interesting - I too have never had an end mill drift in this situation. Maybe a difference in the length of the end mills in question? Or rigidity of the milling machines? Phase of the moon?? 

I've also made piloted counter bores on two or three occasions, very q & d, by taking a spare twist drill bit and grinding down the last half inch or so to the pilot size while twirling it by hand - no precision at all other than by eye, and making sure the end of the flutes that remain are sharp. You'd think something so crude would chatter up a storm, but in fact they have cut smoothly and easily, giving a beautiful result. Needless to say, YMMV, as may mine the very next time I try this!


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## werowance (Jan 22, 2020)

well that's a relief.  I was concerned that was a lot of runout on the crank.

so I got to thinking about the counter bore last night.  I found the right size drill for the head of the screw,  I cant remember but I think it was a #4 might have been a #5.  its still on my bench so ill double check tonight.  I meant to grab it on my way to work so I could pick up a couple more today.   but what I was thinking was to just start a drill hole with the right size drill then take a sacrificial bit of the same size and make a flat bottom drill out of it.  I also considered using my tool post grinder (will have to pick up a new cut off wheel for it) and grind a pilot tip like suggested above by Brian and Awake.   but I figure a flat bottom drill with a hole already just barely started should give me enough to keep it from walking.   its not really that big of a deal for me to have it counter bored but I think it would look better.  what do you all think of the idea?


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## awake (Jan 22, 2020)

Might work, if the drill bit is short and stiff. If long and flexible, I'd worry about chatter. You could always give it a try in a piece of scrap and see what happens - and if it doesn't work, then grind a pilot on it and try again.


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## Art K (Jan 23, 2020)

I have regularly used an endmill to make the counterbore for holes I didn't have in that size. As long as your setup is relatively rigid, I have never had a problem with it.
Art


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## werowance (Jan 24, 2020)

i ended up using a flat bottom drill to do the counter bore.  i dont own an end mill of the right size.  
what i did is just start a hole with the correct size drill on both counter weights,  then took the same drill and ground it to a flat bottom.  it worked well i think.

also the cross pins,  they are peened on both sides, i had chamfered the holes on both sides to give them room to swell out on both sides.  they are also loctighted in place as well.  the pins were peened until they swelled out to almost double their size.  then any excess was cut off with wire cutters,  filed and then sanded on a surface plate until uniform with the rest of the piece.


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## werowance (Jan 24, 2020)

still waiting on my gear cutters to arrive which will almost complete my set of cutters.  so last night after the crank i started on the tappet guides.  which brings up a question.  the part that rides against the cam.  seems some call them tappets, some call them lifters and some call them cam followers?  am i correct in that all 3 names are the same thing?


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## werowance (Jan 24, 2020)

cant be in the shop right now so messing around with the possibility of 3d printing the gear cover. plans say can be made of brass or etc and epoxied on the outside case so i thought why not just 3d print it.  it really should be measured from the actual gear and slot cut in crank case for clearance but this one is more just to see if it can be printed and if i have to have supports and etc in the print.


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## werowance (Jan 24, 2020)




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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 24, 2020)

Tappets and lifters are basically the same thing. The lobe of the cam slides across the face of these tappets to lift the tappet against the pressure of the valve spring. A cam follower is round like a bearing, and the lobe of the cam makes the cam follower roll like a bearing as it is actuated.  There is a bit of voodoo involved with the cam design, depending on what type of tappet or cam follower is used. The cam lobe which interacts with a flat tappet should have rounded flanks, otherwise, if there was no rounded flanks, only flat sides, then the flat side of the cam can "slap" against the flat face of the tappet. Cams which interact with a cam follower can have flat flanks, since the cam follower is round and there are not two flat faces to "slap" together.  On older cars, the tappets or lifters were solid. This meant that the old engines would get noisy as surfaces wore and the valve lash became greater, requiring that every so often you had to adjust the clearances in the valve train. Then some bright spark had an idea---Lets make the tappets two piece, like a mini hydraulic cylinder. Then we can bleed some of the engines pressurized oil thru galleries to the tappets, and no matter how much slack wears into the valve train, the two piece hydraulic tappets will extend to take up the slack, thus doin g away with the necessity to manually set the valves.


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## ALEX1952 (Jan 25, 2020)

We were taught how to grind a drill for flat bottom holes, as the hole acts as a drill guide no pilot is required and chatter should not be a problem, this was a perfectly acceptable method then and I see no reason why it should not be used now.


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## werowance (Jan 27, 2020)

Just a few parts this weekend.  Breather tube, cap and the tappet guides


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2020)

getting close to cutting my gears for this,  i have made a few gears but always had trouble calculating the depth of cut.  i found this site   http://computers.martinchick.com/spur_gear.html with a gear calculator on it and seems everything corelates with what pic design says (the recomended place to buy the gears in the plans)   but when i do the calculator it gives me 2 depth outputs.

1 - working depth  (i assume this is the depth the mating gear tooth will go into the matching v groove ?)
2- whole depth (i assume this is the actual depth of the "V" that i cut ?)

if my 1 and 2 questions are correct then this calculator will be really handy for me.


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## awake (Jan 28, 2020)

You got it - the gear cutter has to cut a bit more than just the working surface of the gear teeth; it also has to cut some clearance. Thus, whole depth = working depth + clearance.

A word of warning, however. There are formulas (for example, in Machinery's Handbook) for each of the parameters of any given spur gear. For the most part, the formulas I have seen in different sources are identical as far as math, but sometimes differ with regard to abbreviations used. However, clearance is a calculation that often involves some slight differences in the formula - differences that may depend on the module or DP of the gear, but also differences in how the clearance calculation may be simplified. I've attached one chart of formulas that I have often used, but I will warn you that this definitely does include some simplification of the clearance for smaller pitch gears.

Fortunately, what we're fussing over is clearance - a little bit more or less clearance is not a problem, so long as it is enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter which formula YOU use to calculate the clearance (and therefore the whole depth); what matters is the formula used by the manufacturer of the gear cutter. If they have a bit of extra clearance, that needs to be included in the whole depth used for that cutter. Ideally, therefore, the whole depth should be marked on the cutter itself. If it isn't ... then do your own calculation, cut some samples, and see what you get.


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2020)

Thank you for that.  i did read that depth should be marked on them on another site but mine do not.  just the module number, the teeth it can cut like 31-36 (made up number just for example) and the 20deg for the PA of the gear is all that is marked on mine.


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## awake (Jan 28, 2020)

What's the module? Let's say it is module 1. My simplified chart calls for a clearance of 25% of the addendum, which for metrics gears is conveniently the module. So we are talking about a clearance of .25mm = .010". If that changes to, say, 20% clearance, .2mm = .008 - a whopping difference of .002". Probably within the fudge factor that you might use anyway ... I think you are safe to use the numbers that the calculator gave you.


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## werowance (Jan 28, 2020)

module 1,  and thank you so much.  that calculator really simplifies things for me.  have 1 gear blank ready and will get the other one ready hopefully tonight so I can cut gears this weekend.  only other set of gears that actually got used were in the Webster.  they turned out pretty good though.  I think I just got lucky though on those  

on the blanks, I'm making them long enough to get a few spares out of one gear cutting session.


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## stanstocker (Jan 29, 2020)

Greetings,

The depth calculation for module based spur gears is 2.25 * module.  While most US folks commonly deal with "pitch" (10,12,16,32 etc.) the ISO specifications using module based cutters can sometimes make the calculations nice and easy.

A nice summary of ISO spec cutting of many gear forms is found at:
https://khkgears.net/new/gear_knowledge/gear_technical_reference/calculation_gear_dimensions.html

Fortunately the spur gear part is right at the start, some of the more complex forms require a bit more complicated math. 

You may encounter some weird numbers when looking for information on using module cutters as these are very common in clock work.  Clock gears usually have cycloidal rather than involute teeth.  Many antique clock gears were not cut to any standard other than the cutters made in the shop and you start getting depths, tooth thicknesses, and addendum/dedendum ratios all over the place.

In clock work depthing tools are often used to check gear mesh.  When dealing with gears mounted on shafts the tool starts to get harder to make with sufficient accuracy, when you have just the gears simpler methods work fine.  As the center distance of the gears is already defined, you might take a few minutes and press two pins into a small plate with this distance drilled carefully.  Add a couple bushings or make the press in pins stepped to fill the center hole of the gear and you can test the mesh of the gears as they rotate without having other parts limiting your sense of touch.  A nice smooth rotation through a few complete turns is what you are after.  A posh adjustable flat depthing tool is show at:
http://www.clickspringprojects.com/pinion-head-depthing-tool.html

It's looking like a nice project, I've enjoyed following it!
Stan


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## awake (Jan 29, 2020)

I have gear specifications from gear manufacturers that state the clearance for this size of gear as 25% of addendum (conveniently, addendum = the module for metric gears) ... or 20% ... and in very old editions of MH, 15.7%. Which is to say, the whole depth could be anything from 2.25 * module to 2.157 * module. But again, the net effect in a module 1 gear is a maximum of .004". So if you cut them at a whole depth of .085" (=15.7% clearance), you might find that the gears bind a bit ... and if you cut them at a whole depth of .089" (=25% clearance), you might get a bit more backlash than you wanted ... but in either case, the actual result will also depend on how precisely you locate the gear axes.


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## werowance (Feb 3, 2020)

Gears turned out good this weekend.  But I did mess up the first 30 tooth.  Math was all correct but I must have hit my indicator or something before I locked everything down to cut it.   First cut was way to deep.  I made a couple extra passes just so I could see how bad it was then reset everything back up this time double checking everything and finished cutting the gear just so I could test the fit before making a new one.  It fit great.  The 60 tooth came out just fine.  I cut a few extras of each while I was at it


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## awake (Feb 3, 2020)

I've made a few gears that look like that first picture. 

Good work on the rest!


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 3, 2020)

Nice work on the gears. As you found out, you have to really pay attention to the math and set-up, and you really don't want distractions. Gears are a milestone for model engine  builders, and you've done good.---Brian


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## CFLBob (Feb 3, 2020)

Add me to the impressed - nice looking.  What did you cut those in?  I think it looks like steel but that's not saying much.


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## werowance (Feb 3, 2020)

I cut them in 12L14 steel


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## bobden72 (Feb 4, 2020)

Nice job on the gears.


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## werowance (Feb 5, 2020)

well all I can say is CRAP!  day before yesterday I went home and was planning on marking the side plate to cutout a slot for the gear to clear and low and behold I had made a mistake.  I reamed the holes in the gears for the opposite shafts they were to ride on.  in other words the cam gear was reamed for the crankshaft and the crank gear was reamed for the camshaft.   I tried to enlarge the one gear to fit the crank but it turned out off center.  oh well both gears are junk for this project.

so with that I am taking a few days off from machining so I can as my wife calls it pout about it.
maybe Ill have my head out of my rear end after a few days off and can cut them correctly.


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## awake (Feb 5, 2020)

Oh, I feel your pain. This is when I pull out the old proverb ...

I've cut it three times, and it's still too short!


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## John Antliff (Feb 6, 2020)

What a shame - I'm glad I'm not the only one.  I offered to shave off an 1/8th from the bottom off my friends door only to find out when re-hanging it that I had actually taken an 1/8th of the TOP.  How could I do that?


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## werowance (Feb 19, 2020)

I haven't gone away or anything.  just took a week off then had multiple failures when I started back, then a round of the stomache virus for about 4 or 5 days....

I over shot the mark when turning down the gear blanks at least twice,  then when cutting the 30 tooth gear my draw bar came loose and my chuck dropped.  some how that ruined the teeth on the 30 tooth gear cutter (fortunately the machine was not damaged).  that cutter was an oddball brand that did not match the rest of my mod 1 set anyway.  I have ordered another one of a matching brand from Australia and in the mean time the 60 tooth came out just fine and meshes with the original 60 tooth really nice as a test.  I have not parted it off yet though.  hopefully Ill have the new 30 tooth cutter any day now and when I get it cut ill part both gears off.  my lathe is a combo lathe mill so I don't want to switch back and fourth until I have to.  in the mean time I have started thinning down some bronze I had for the rocker arms that was close to the right thickness to begin with.


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## werowance (Feb 27, 2020)

gears go round and round now on the correct shafts this time.....


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## werowance (Feb 27, 2020)

now i was looking at the rocker arms and have the material down to .125 but looking at the tip of the rocker arm in the drawing it doesnt give any type of radius or anything.  i guess just file or sand it till it looks nice?


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2020)

Glad to see that you are still in the game. I know just how discouraging it can be when halfway thru a build you find that something has gone awry. Keep on truckin' Werowance.--As the rocker arm rocks, it does actually swing in an arc on top of the tappet and on top of the valve. You need the adjustment as shown on one end so you can set the valve lash. The other end should be formed with an arc as shown, but it's not critical.-Brian


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## Art K (Feb 27, 2020)

I would echo what Brian said, that it wasn't critical. The arc is just so the tip of the rocker follows the valve.
Art


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## werowance (Mar 2, 2020)

starting to look like an engine.  just got the slot done for the gear clearance and then mocked things up.  the tappet guids are just barely inserted is why they are crooked


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 2, 2020)

Looking very good. I am following your progress with interest.---Brian


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## werowance (Mar 3, 2020)

Got a start on the gear cover.  took a piece of scrap brass cutoff about 3/4 inch long and bored it to size and cut the outside to size.  then parted it off.  I will take a piece of square brass tube to make the sides / flanges.  plans say to glue it on but I hope I can fit some 2-56 screws on the flanges.  if not ill cut the flanges off and just glue it on like it says.  sides will be soft soldered to the final half moon shape. 
I also got some stock cut close to size and locktighted together so I can cut both rocker arms at the same time.  left it to cure and went in for dinner.


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## werowance (Mar 4, 2020)

i don't think I'm going to be able to attach it with 2-56 screws.  this is as far as I got last night.  just roughed in on the flanges to see how much room I would have.  hope to get the flanges squared up and closer to size tonight.  maybe I can get a 2-56.  if not ill just epoxy it down like the plans say to do


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## werowance (Mar 5, 2020)

could not do the 2-56 screw idea so fell back to what the plans say.   I trimmed the tabs mostly off the sides.  left a little bit for the glue to adhear to.  also had to cut a little relief out so the screw holding the aluminum plate down would clear.  then cleaned it all up.   on the note of cleaning up.  is there a common on the shop shelf cleaner that will remove dikem?  don't like running in the house with dirty hands getting the wifes acetone fingernail polish remover.  she probably doesn't like me doing that either lol.  I guess I could just buy a bottle for the shelf but was just curious of there were other common things that will bring it off.

and I saw Brian R say on one of his threads yesterday that he likes to make at least 1 part a day....im lucky to get a part done a week    this simple part has been almost a week.


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## Sprocket (Mar 5, 2020)

I think plain acetone is the usual solvent. Two universal (almost) solvents, acetone and water. Besides, there is other stuff in nail polish remover you might not want to have on your surface.
Acetone will de-fat your skin, can be absorbed through the skin, other health risks, but a really good straight solvent and degreaser.


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## Ghosty (Mar 5, 2020)

werowance,
This is what I use, works well, go's by different names in other country's., hope this helps.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 5, 2020)

Go to your nearest hardware store and buy laquer thinner. It removes dykem easily.


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## CFLBob (Mar 5, 2020)

I was going to suggest denatured alcohol, which is what I've used.  That's called methylated spirits in other places.


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2020)

denatured Alcohol,  now that's something I have a big jug of in the garage.  bought it to run the flame eater with which doesn't use very much.  and only about 7.00 us for a gallon of the stuff.

I also have some laquer thinner as well in the garage.  rarely get it down because I don't do much painting.

thank you all for those suggestions.

so for todays question.... or at least the first question of the day   I have been studying about cam making and over the years have watched / read many tutorials from many different sources.  I'm leaning toward the rotary table on the mill method but I just still don't understand how to arrive at the correct measurements to obtain the egg shape of a cam.  I realize its just move a tad, rotate a tad and then cut but how much to move and where to start the cut etc - how to calculate the measurements of each move?

do any of you know of a good post or tutorial I could read or watch that might explain the method a little bit better?  something that shows how they figured out how much to move the part in before the first cut?  seems each cut is rotated about 1 deg before the next cut and once all done finished with a  file or sand paper.


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## L98fiero (Mar 6, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Go to your nearest hardware store and buy laquer thinner. It removes dykem easily.


Brian, lacquer thinner is a nasty solvent, it's very flammable, the toluene component has a flash point of 0°F and a lower flame limit of just 1.2%, pretty comparable to gasoline and the Methyl Hydrate/methylene/methyl alcohol/wood alcohol component breaks down into formaldehyde when absorbed through the skin. Acetone/dimethyl ketone/propanone absorbs through skin easily too and while it can be toxic, it is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes.
The other thing to consider is that your new TIG welder might not like the possible additives in the lacquer thinner when you clean the parts to be welded while acetone is the 'cleaner of choice' for many years, and it removed layout dye, too!


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## awake (Mar 6, 2020)

Weworance, are you looking to make cams with flat flanks or rounded flanks?

I have vast experience in this area, having cut a grand total of two - count 'em, _two_! - cams. Actually only needed one, since the intake valve is atmospheric, but I cut these as part of a gear, and it turns out, to my great surprise, that a 40-tooth gear does not work when the plans were based on a 48-tooth gear.

Ignorance usually stops me from offering an opinion, but since I _have_ been thinking about this recently, I'll throw in my $0.02 and then sit back, waiting for someone who actually knows what he/she is doing to correct me!

*For a straight flank cam*, which is what I recently cut (twice), it is quite simple. Turn the cam blank to the maximum outer diameter. Set up the rotary table so that the cam blank is centered on the table and the table is centered under the spindle. Move the Y-axis so that the cutter clears the cam blank. With the rotary table locked at 0° (or whatever setting you want to start at), start making passes along X to cut the flank, moving in the Y-axis to take however deep a cut you feel comfortable taking each time, until you reach the radius of the base circle of the cam (where the cam is not activating the valve).

At this point, lock the Y-axis. Index the table however many degrees you want to do at a time, and make another pass. Index the table again, make another pass. Continue until you have indexed the table through the appropriate number of degrees. Since the shape has been generated by a series of straight cuts, the curve will consist of tiny facets; lightly file to smooth these out. File to round over the points where the straight flanks meet the maximum outer diameter.

Note that I have described this with the cuts happening along the X-axis, but there is no reason it can't be done with the cuts on the Y-axis instead (swap X and Y above). It can also be done with the rotary table in the vertical position (or even using a spin indexer), adjusting the Z-axis to get to the base circle.

*For a rounded flank cam*, there are two options. One is to do the same procedure as above, except that you will need to calculate the Y-axis settings for each index of the rotary table to give you the rounded flank - rather a pain, and more likely to succeed if you have DROs on your mill. This approach does allow using the rotary table in either horizontal or vertical positions, as suggested in the previous paragraph.

Option 2, which will only work with the rotary table set horizontally, is to set a boring head up to cut an outside diameter, either by turning a standard boring bit 180° to face inwards rather than outwards (this requires running the boring head backwards, which further requires that the boring head will not unscrew itself in the process), or by making up an inverse boring bit. Set the boring head up to cut the radius called for on the flanks of the cam. Set up the rotary table and the cam blank as above, and lock the Y-axis on 0 (i.e., centered on the rotary table). Move the X-axis to 0 as well. Lower the boring head and check to be sure the boring bit will clear all around the cam. Move the X-axis slowly until the bit just contacts the cam blank. Note the setting on your DRO (or re-zero it). Now you will take a series of boring cuts (e.g., using the auto-feed if you have it, or a fine feed, or so on), moving the X-axis each time to take the depth of cut you are comfortable taking each time, until you have moved the X-axis the distance between the radius of the flanks and the radius of the base circle. This is now one flank. Begin indexing the table however many degrees you want to do each time, making a boring pass, until you have indexed around through the appropriate number of degrees. The final pass establishes the other flank. Once again you will need to smooth out any small facets with light filing, plus you will need to round over the nose.

*Okay, let the corrections begin ...* those of you who actually know what you are doing, did I get close? Completely wrong? Somewhere in-between?


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2020)

wow,  that's a whole lot of info and not sure I understand it all but ill say this.
I believe I need option 2 for this engine as it has tappets.  the Webster was easy and I used option 1 method for that cam with flat flanks.

option 2that  you describe I believe is the one that I saw Chuck Fellows do a post on with video.  which I never could understand.  when I get home and can get my hands on the mill and eyes on these instructions it may make better sense to me
here is a picture of the cams I need to make, Mr. Upshur used a method on the lathe which used an offset arbor to do it and that's another method I have seen and also still don't understand lol.  but I figure rotary table / mill method would be easier since no need to make the arbor or holding tool or fixture  whatever you want to call it thingy majig


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2020)

ok in option 2 you say to "Set the boring head up to cut the radius called for on the flanks of the cam"   a lot of plans I see do not specify a radius for the flanks,  but just the tip and the base circle only.

here is the written description in the plans for making the cam using the fixture.  and I don't see how I can calculate the flank radius using it?  I'm sure there is some math that I could use to calculate the flank radius by taking the blank diameter,  the final cam base circle and then tip radius but I don't know how I would do that math or what the formula would be.  I failed 2 years worth of pre-algebra in high school but if I know what the formula is then I can certainly do the math using the formula.  I think I will spend some time looking to see if there is a formula for it out there somewhere online


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## werowance (Mar 6, 2020)

ok, im borrowing this image from Brian Rupnows thread -   https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/quick-way-to-cut-a-cam.26315/#post-288291

and it makes sense on the setup that you (Awake) described in option 2.  but how to get that flank radius circle that i need is what puzzles me most now


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## awake (Mar 6, 2020)

As it happens, I just read the chapter in Malcom Stride's book,_ Miniature Internal Combustion Engines_, on cams. He suggests that the rule of thumb for the flank radius is 2 times the base circle radius - but also indicates that this is a parameter that can be experimented with to adjust the acceleration of the valve as it opens/closes.


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## Cogsy (Mar 6, 2020)

The Chuck Fellows method being talked about is the one I use for single cams and it's very easy and fast. For the flank radius, which is determined by the arc the boring head is describing, for smallish cams like these I just set it at around 2" and see how it looks. We're not after maximum theoretical power or anything so I don't think it matters too much.


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## minh-thanh (Mar 6, 2020)

I don't care much about flank radius, I make cam for "approximate " to close and open valve.


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## werowance (Mar 7, 2020)

ok, diameter of base circle is .334 so x that by 2 to get the radius which is .668  then x that by 2 to get twice the size of the radius of the base circle and I get 1.336   so 1.336 would be my flank radius correct?   yes I don't mind to experiment but would like  to have a close idea of what I need.


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## awake (Mar 7, 2020)

Wait, something doesn't sound quite right. Radius is half the diameter, not the other way around. So, let's assume the radius of the base circle is .334, with a diameter of .668. The flank radius suggested by Stride is 2x the base circle, so a radius of .668 and a diameter of 1.336. Here is a diagram, with the smaller circle represent the base circle (r=.334, d=.668), and the larger circle representing the curve of the flank (r=.668, d=1.336):







Using these circles, we can construct the cam - just have to duplicate and rotate the larger circle to get the desired angle during when we want the cam to act on the valve:






Now we need to find the largest dimension of the cam, i.e., the circle with a radius that represents the lift. In this case, I randomly chose the lift to be .125, so the green circle has radius .334+.125 = .469:






We now have the pieces to draw the basic shape: base circle (radius = .334), flanks (radius = .668), and nose (radius = .469), giving us the super-imposed cyan outline:






But of course, we need to round off the nose so that we don't have the sharp transition between the flank and the nose. So let's take the basic shape and put in the largest circle we can that will be tangent to the flanks and to the nose:






Use this "nose circle" to refine the shape, and now we have our final cam:


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## Chuck Leininger (Mar 8, 2020)

I like your post very much . Thanks !


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## werowance (Mar 8, 2020)

ah ok, yep I went the wrong direction.  .334 Is my diameter per the plans so  basicly once I convert that all I have to say is .334 radius is my flank size.

.334 diameter divided by 2 = .167 radius   but since we are going to double the radius size x2 just skip the division since my plan was already in diameter we are back to.334 but say radius now.


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## awake (Mar 8, 2020)

Yep, there you go. But remember that this is a "rule of thumb," according to Stride. Based on what I was seeing as I was making the diagrams, plus Cogsy's post above, I wonder if this rule of thumb is more towards the lower end of what the radius should be, with room to go much larger.


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## werowance (Mar 9, 2020)

didn't get to try to cut the cams got short on time and honestly still feel a little uneasy doing it.  I'm going to watch more videos and read more tutorials until I feel more confident that I do fully understand it. 

all the help I have received so far has cleared up many things that I didn't understand before when I was watching the videos and reading the tutorials so hopefully now that I have more understanding of it they will make more sense to me.  

I really appreciate all the help given.

but I did get the cam blanks cut (valve and points) - made them from I think tool steel.  didn't have any drill rod but I did have an old broken 1/2 breaker bar that's been on my scrap shelf for a while.  it cut ok and left a decent finish.  spark test showered sparks so its likely high carbon (chamfered the part off edge with my table sander is why the sparks).

and my wife informed me that her fingernail polish remover was 100% acetone and was also nice enough to pick me up a bottle Friday when she was at the grocery store.  so now I have a shop bottle of it


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## awake (Mar 9, 2020)

Every man should have some nail polish remover on hand!

I buy mine this way: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Jasco-128-fl-oz-Fast-to-Dissolve-Acetone/50298085


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## werowance (Mar 9, 2020)

and ding ding ding the light went on in my head.  watched all the videos and read the tutorials again and it makes good sense to me now. 

I want to make up some disks or blanks of the right sizes so I can adjust the boring head a little easier but other thank that I think I get it now.


again thank you all so much for all the explanations.  It never would have clicked without them.  cant wait to get home to try it now.


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## minh-thanh (Mar 9, 2020)

werowance !
Just a wonder, do you want to do more engine ?
If you want to do more .., make an cam grinder similar  as  link :
https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/simple-cam-grinding-jig.31731/


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## werowance (Mar 9, 2020)

i dont think im up to making a cam grinder just yet. 

re-read my plans and description and the jig Mr Upshur called for to cut the cam was 1 inch diameter and says could be larger  so that right there tells me now that i understand it that i need to set my boring head for about 1 inch.

now looking at the drawing, it gives an offset for the pin from centerline to be .312 add half the base circle diameter to that and i get .479   x that by 2 i get .958 as the diameter i should set my boring head to cut and i was going to guess at 1 inch after all i read.   can anyone check my math to make sure im looking at that right?  i know its not critical but still wanted to ask.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 9, 2020)

Werowance--When I first started making i.c. engines, I tried the lathe method as described by Mr. Upshur. It may have worked well for him, however I found that it didn't work at all well for me. The method described by Chuck Fellows  is much easier and faster. It's a bit hard to get your head around , but when you do it's marvelous. ---Brian


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## werowance (Mar 9, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Werowance--When I first started making i.c. engines, I tried the lathe method as described by Mr. Upshur. It may have worked well for him, however I found that it didn't work at all well for me. The method described by Chuck Fellows  is much easier and faster. It's a bit hard to get your head around , but when you do it's marvelous. ---Brian




Hi Brian really I was just using his method to get the flank radius.  I’m setting up to do Mr. Fellows technique but wanted to double check my math


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## awake (Mar 10, 2020)

Weworance, sorry that I didn't have a chance to look at this until now. Yes, I'd say your math is spot on. His diagram suggests .958 diameter for the boring head, close enough to 1" in round figures, particularly since everything above is suggesting that larger is just fine.

The one thing that I don't see in the diagram is the angle of action - is that in the notes somewhere?


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## werowance (Mar 11, 2020)

awake said:


> Weworance, sorry that I didn't have a chance to look at this until now. Yes, I'd say your math is spot on. His diagram suggests .958 diameter for the boring head, close enough to 1" in round figures, particularly since everything above is suggesting that larger is just fine.
> 
> The one thing that I don't see in the diagram is the angle of action - is that in the notes somewhere?




Awake,  thank you for confirming the math.  that makes me feel better.  I held off on actually cutting the cam last night wanting to see if my math was right. 
I don't see anything about angle of action in the plans.


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## werowance (Mar 11, 2020)

here is the planned setup for me to cut the cams.
I cut 2 disks to use a reference points to set the boring head cutting diameter and the other smaller disk to set the offset of the boring head to reach the base circle diameter.  I used a pin in the already reamed center of the cam blank to hold the disks or thick washers if you will in place.  I moved the boring head into place until it would just start to drag on a piece of receipt paper (I don't have cigarette papers as most suggest for finding the edge).  the receipt paper is thinner than printer paper so I used that.  once  I had the boring head cutting diameter set to .958 I then switched disks to the smaller one to set the .334 base circle by moving the mill table over until the cutting tip would just start to grab a piece of recipt paper and then locked it all down tight.

I guess I should say that at the start I centered the rotary table to the mill head and then set the .958 cutting size of the boring head and also had the RT rotated until it was on 0 deg with the pointer on the side so I had a good starting reference point.

tonight I cut.   I hope anyway.


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## werowance (Mar 12, 2020)

just had time to get started last night.  man that first cut I could feel the chatter in my feet.  made about 10 more cuts after that and they were fine.  giving my RT 1 full crank of the handle for each cut.  I hope to get off work early today so I can finish this one up today.  but ill have to say its looking just like all the tutorials did so far


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## awake (Mar 12, 2020)

Weworance, I neglected to say that you should work your way down to the base circle in a series of cuts (each of which consists of a series of cuts as the head descends vertically). Once you get to the base circle, then you can turn the RT and the amount being cut is small enough that you can do all further cuts at the base circle setting. If I understand you correctly, you did the first boring cut at the base circle diameter, so you were taking off a relatively large amount - but it looks like you succeeded, so all's well!

What did you decide on the angle of action / lift (or to ask another way, what will be the total amount of rotation used on the RT)?


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## Ghosty (Mar 12, 2020)

I have been doing cams this way for a while, I use a 1.5" dia for the boring head cutting diameter. This is a cam for a twin cam, 4valve head that I have been working on
Cheers
Andrew


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## werowance (Mar 13, 2020)

Awake,  I was doing one turn on the handle per cut which was close to 2 deg per cut.  I hope I understand your question right.

have made it almost to the tip and I stopped as it was getting late.   but I do have a question.  the plans say to radius the tip to .025 (not critical) it says.  now I have only used my radius gauges once since they were given to me and they are stamped in fraction.  just so I don't go the wrong direction with the math I'm double checking.  .025 radius x 2 =.050 diameter right?  3/64 as the picture shows is the closest gauge I have to it which is .04687  - close enough you think?  ill have to hand file it anyway so it definitely wont be perfect


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## awake (Mar 13, 2020)

Mmm, maybe not. Here's how I understand the process:

Center RT with blank; lock the Y axis. Adjust boring head to appropriate radius. Move the X-axis until the boring head just makes contact with the blank. Raise the boring head, move the X-axis another .010" or .020" (or however much you want to take off each time) and "bore" down the blank (actually, the inverse of a bore since you are cutting the outside). This will shave a little off the flank, but not yet down to the base circle. Move the X-axis another .010" or .020" and "bore" again. Repeat until your X-axis setting is at the point that the boring head is cutting the blank right up to the base circle. Now lock your X-axis. NOW you rotate the RT a couple of degrees, and "bore" again, and repeat until the full shape is reached - you don't have to work your way down to the base circle after the first time, because only a little bit has to be cut with each couple of degrees of rotation.

From your description, I'm wondering if you skipped the part in red above - went straight to where the boring head would cut right up to the base circle, and "bored" down. If so, you would have been taking off a rather big bite on that boring pass. After that, as noted above, when you were at the base circle and turning the RT a couple of degrees each time, you were only taking a small "bite" each time.

Again, even if you skipped the part in red, you succeeded and nothing broke, so no harm done. If your mill and boring head can handle that big a bite in one go, it certainly would save time!

On your last question, it sounds like you are deciding how far around to go with the RT based on the nose radius. I can see that this is the way the plans are written, but I would say ultimately it is not the best approach. What you really want to do is to figure out how long (how many degrees of camshaft rotation) you want the valve to be lifted, and by how much. That said, let me see if I can reverse-engineer what you've got on the drawings. Here's a diagram that reflects the known parameters from the drawing - base circle is .334"; the blank is cut to .480"; the nose radius is .025"; and the flanks are cut using a jig with a .958" cutting diameter. The heavier cyan line shows the cam that results from these parameters:






Now we can work out the resulting angle of duration and the lift. Presuming that the blank (diameter = .480") is to represent the outermost part of the cam, the lift can be calculated as the difference between the base circle radius and the radius of the blank: (.480-.334)/2 = .073" of lift. With the help of a CAD package, we can easily find the lines that are perpendicular to the point where the flank circles are tangent with the base circle - or to say it another way, the point at which the shape starts to follow the flank outline rather than the base circle outline. Furthermore, the CAD package lets us measure the angle between these lines:






So, if all of my assumptions are correct (probably a dangerous assumption in and of itself!), then the duration of the resulting cam will be 124.42°. Let's round it up to 125° just to make life easier. This will let you set the valve timing for something like opening 20° BTDC and closing 15° ATDC, which seems reasonable based on my limited knowledge and experience.

But here's the key thing: the best way to cut this is not to keep on rotating the RT until you can fit the .025" radius gauge; rather it is to rotate the RT the desired amount to achieve the 125° of lift duration. So, 360° - 125° = 235°; if you rotate the RT a total of 235° (a couple of degrees at a time, "boring" after each turn), then the resulting cam will be correct, and you will only need to file the nose round (IOW, smooth out the transition around the nose) and smooth any slight irregularities around the rest of the cam introduced by the steps in cutting.

Clear as mud?!?


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## werowance (Mar 13, 2020)

awake said:


> Clear as mud?!?




lol,  yeah clear as mud.    i am glad that i made sure the rt was on 0 when i started.  ill check to see how close to 235deg when i get home.

and you are correct i did skip the text in red above and went for a direct bore down to hit the base circle.  plenty of rapid tap cutting fluid and a very very slow going downward.  i got through it and everything survived.  i think next time i will start further out and work my way in with mulitple down feeds until i hit the base circle radius and then start rotating a degree or 2 at a time.  i did not like all that chatter on the first pass down.

Thank you to all of you for helping with this

when i get them cut and get ready to lock tight them in place on the camshaft i was thinking about just printing out a degree wheel on paper, poking a hole in the middle so i can set the location on the cams.  plans say about 101 to 102 degrees from each other.   is that how you all do it?  you all probably have professional degree wheels or protractors but i dont.  figured a paper one would work on the cheap.

or do you set the first cam at full lift on the lifter and then rotate 101 degrees and set the second cam at full ift on the other lifter?  either way i will need a degree wheel.


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## minh-thanh (Mar 14, 2020)

werowance said:


> l
> when i get them cut and get ready to lock tight them in place on the camshaft i was thinking about just printing out a degree wheel on paper, poking a hole in the middle so i can set the location on the cams.  plans say about 101 to 102 degrees from each other.   is that how you all do it?



I don't know how others do it, but the way you describe how you're going to do it is almost the same as I used to be and it worked for me
I don't know the engine drawings you are making, but before you  lock tight them , review their design position carefully.


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## werowance (Mar 16, 2020)

although the pictures i have dont really look that great,  still needed some cleanup when i took them.  the cams came out really good.  and Awakes measurements were spot on, i put the radius gauge up to it after cutting to 235 degrees and it was right on it.  thank you all for all your help on this.  learning to do it was the hardest part.  now i feel like i can do this again without to much trouble.  everyones patience was above and beyond and you have taught me how to make a cam now.

the cams are just pushed up on a shaft for the pics.  lower cam in first pic especially needs deburring after parting off which i have already done but the pics dont show it.


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## werowance (Mar 16, 2020)

also did the points cam while i was at it.  on this pic its also just pushed up on a scrap shaft to hold it for the pic. wasnt much to do in its construction


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 16, 2020)

You've done well Werowance. I know all the steps in making cams that way, but since I only do it about 3 or 4 times a year I have to read thru all of my old posts and learn it all over again each time. I will be making cams for my engine sometime in the next couple of weeks using that method.---Brian


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## awake (Mar 16, 2020)

Well done!


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## werowance (Mar 16, 2020)

Going to take few days off from the build to play with / assemble my new toy that just arrived.  A cnc 3018 pro cutter/engraver with 15w laser attachment


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## werowance (Mar 16, 2020)

Alright no instructions and no link sent with kit however plenty of YouTube videos for it. Here it is as I stop for the day with it.  Nothing square and not tightened up 






Also no USA power cord however I have plenty


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## CFLBob (Mar 16, 2020)

Looks like a fun diversion for a few hours or days.  

I've been meaning to figure out how to put a laser on my Sherline mill instead of it's headstock (90 W motor; less than 1/10 HP).


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## werowance (Mar 19, 2020)

last night i started on the tappets and after i made one i realized i may have made a mistake.  plans in the lower right say material drill rod,  but on the tappet guide it says brass.  it does not specify for the tappet itself.  i think the lower right is refering to the cam lobe which is also on the same sheet.   
so my question is,  should the tappet also be steel ?  it will be riding on the steel cam lobe so i originally assumed it should be brass for wear reasons then thought about briggs and strattons and other small engines, they are all steel on steel.

easy enough of a part to make.  just want to make sure i use the correct material.


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## Brian Rupnow (Mar 19, 2020)

I make my tappets from 01 drill rod, than heat and quench it to harden it. The cams should be the same. The tappet guide can be bronze or brass. There is tremendous "wiping" motion as the cam rubs the tappet to open the valve.---Brian


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## werowance (Mar 19, 2020)

ok, i can remake then.  i thought after i made it that i may be wrong in my material choice.

thanks for answering Brian.


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## werowance (Mar 30, 2020)

not much progress lately.  in fact I think I took a step backward even.  I made the tappets in steel and that went well,  started making spacers for the cam shaft to space the gear and the cams.  used brass and cut it to a thin walled tube.  then woops I dropped my cams in the floor.  I also re did the solder job on the cylinder to the plate which went well also.  found a neat trick to remove the heat bluing on the fins after soldering.  muratic brick acid mixed with water.  about 50/50 mix.  just a little on a qtip and rubbed on the fins only lightly and they were back to shiney brite again.  I was careful to keep it off the solder joint or the inside of the cylinder as I am told it will leach the solder and weaken it.  but figured I was safe cleaning the fins back up with it.  then rinsed with water, dried it up and oiled it really good.

but the step backward part is I dropped my cams in the floor.  I could only find one of them last night.  I was so agrivated with my self.   hopefully I will find the other one tonight.  

I didn't think to take pictures of anything yet.


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## CFLBob (Mar 30, 2020)

werowance said:


> but the step backward part is I dropped my cams in the floor. I could only find one of them last night.



How many times have you dropped something or put something down and it disappears, then the next day or two days later you go back and it's exactly where you looked?  It happened to me at least once last week.  A friend of mine said the thing you dropped time travels and goes into the future and you don't find it until you catch up to that time.  

You'll find it in a day or two.


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## awake (Mar 30, 2020)

No, no, you only find it AFTER you have made the replacement. Or at least, that appears to be the rules of the universe in my shop!


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## werowance (Mar 30, 2020)

I fear that will be the rules in my shop as well......  and my floor is a mess right now anyway just to make things worse....


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## CFLBob (Mar 30, 2020)

awake said:


> No, no, you only find it AFTER you have made the replacement. Or at least, that appears to be the rules of the universe in my shop!



I know for sure that's the law if you have to buy the replacement.  I can't tell you how many times I've proved that law.  I hadn't thought of what happens when you have to make it.  Hmm.  I bet it depends on how much of a pain in *** it is to make the replacement.


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## awake (Mar 30, 2020)

Oh yes, absolutely. Easy to make parts are also easy to find - that's the rule. Parts that are fiddly and take forever spend a proportionate amount of time* hiding.

*I believe the proportion is, for every hour it took to make, it spends a week in hiding.


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## werowance (Mar 30, 2020)

Well I’m happy to report the second cam was found an I treated it like finding gold.  I hope this pos works ok as it’s from my iPad and I can barely read the print.    But yayyyy. Canm located!


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## werowance (Mar 30, 2020)

Right up against the trash bin in the floor sweep compound right up a against it


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## awake (Mar 31, 2020)

Yay! Now you can come and find some of misplaced parts in my shop!


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2020)

now you know we are supposed to be social distancing..... (not playing down the real importance of that)


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## werowance (Mar 31, 2020)

actually looking at your profile widget you are probably not that far from me.  I'm in VA, near Bristol.  not that it means we are really close but one state below me is all.


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## awake (Mar 31, 2020)

According to Google Maps, it looks like you are right in the "corner" of Virginia, right next to NC and TN. Yes, not all that far - about 4-5 hours from here, but we get up to Boone, NC from time to time, and it looks to be only 1.5 hours from there. Maybe once this pandemic is over we can plan a western NC/VA model engine fest!


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## werowance (Apr 2, 2020)

just some pictures.  really not much new yet


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## werowance (Apr 3, 2020)

still working on spacers,  I cut them close then finish them with sand paper on a marble tile to the right thickness.  gear to bearing spacer is where it needs to be (hopefully) and the gear to first cam is still a little thick in the pictures below.  and after I took the pictures I realized I probably should have waited until I could shim the crank shaft and its gear into the proper position before I did the cam.   oh well I will adjust if necessary (wont locktight anything until all parts are mocked up)  I cant shim the crank until I have a rod and piston.  I think it will be ok as there will be some wiggle room to move the gear on the crank back or fourth if need be.

on the points cam,  I wish I had put just a little lip on it to keep it from running against the outer race of the ball bearing on the outside.  making a shim washer that thin is difficult and usually requires loosing a little skin from my finger tip on sandpaper / laping plate to thin a brass washer down


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## awake (Apr 4, 2020)

Weworance,

What is the thickness of the cam shaft gear? It looks like the cams and tappets are around twice as wide as the gear, right? I'm asking because I've been playing around with a design, and wondered how wide the cams should be.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 5, 2020)

The cam only needs to be as wide as the tappet. However, if you are attaching the cam to the shaft with a set screw, then your cam will need a round hub about 1/4" long on one side to accept the set screws.


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## awake (Apr 5, 2020)

Okay, that confirms what I was thinking. Thanks!


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## werowance (Apr 6, 2020)

plans say .230 wide for the cams as typical.  I did go just a little wider just because I could and there was clearance.  the gear is .125 wide.
thanks


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## awake (Apr 6, 2020)

Ah, very helpful, thanks. I was thinking maybe the gear was .25" wide, and the cams would then be in the vicinity of .5" wide - and that was seeming to get rather larger than what I had in mind for the design I'm playing with!


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## werowance (Apr 7, 2020)

spent last night cutting through a slab of 2024 aluminum to use for the piston rod and just started turning a piston as well.  took a while to get through that slab of 2024 on the band saw.


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## werowance (Apr 9, 2020)

more work on the piston.  will do the final part off after I have the wrist pin hole drilled and reamed.  saw on another post the other day on this forum about leaving the extra on to make the piston easier to hold for that drill procedure.  should make it much easier to hold in my collet chuck that on my Webster where I barely had enough protruding from the chuck to clear for the reamer.  I plan on making (attempting to make) my own rings so they will be lapped to fit the grooves instead of me cutting the grooves to fit store bought rings.


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## werowance (Apr 10, 2020)

managed to cross drill and ream last night is all


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## awake (Apr 10, 2020)

"... is all" -- but that is far more than I have managed for the past several nights! Continuing to follow with interest!


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 10, 2020)

The second counterbore in (the one in the same location as the wrist pin) is supposed to be a slot, not a round counterbore. Did you do something wrong or am I just seeing it wrong?---Brian


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## werowance (Apr 10, 2020)

i thought the same thing at first but nope.  the Upshur is just 2 holes bored at different diameters large enough to clear the rod according to the drawings


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## werowance (Apr 10, 2020)

doesn't even use set screws to hold the wrist pin.  just rounds over the ends of the wrist pin with an inserted brass or aluminum plug


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 10, 2020)

Okay--I haven't seen it done that way before, but it should work.


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## werowance (Apr 10, 2020)

but I am glad you are watching and looking out for me as I will make plenty of mistakes as I go along so its much appreciated.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 10, 2020)

Werowance--I do keep an eye on your builds, and I admire the way you go about doing things. I can see you learning with every new post. I too make mistakes, as it is all part of the learning process.---Brian


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## Art K (Apr 10, 2020)

Brian,
Mine is the same way. It's just got two bored diameters inside. The piston end of the rod is round as well. The rod has the end cap mounted then the holes drilled & reamed. The rest is then turned in the lathe & the excess on the piston end is cut off. Hope that's helpful.
Art


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## werowance (Apr 13, 2020)

i actually saw another engine builder use brass for the wrist pin.  he says it holds up just fine for him.  he was talking about it in one of his posts concerning how to hold the pin in place so as to not score the piston walls and his solution was to use brass and not worry about it.  was thinking about doing the same but wanted to hear if anyone else had tried it and what their results were.


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## Mow (Apr 15, 2020)

I  am attempting to build this same engine.  I have started but I'm not nearly along as you are.  I do have a question about the gears.  Would it make a difference if 14 1/2 pressure angle cutters were used instead of the 20 degree cutters? I have access to 14 1/2 degree cutters.  

Hopefully I can make a little progress on the engine in the next few weeks.  Thank you for posting all this information on your build.  It has spurred me into building mine!

Mow


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## werowance (Apr 15, 2020)

i really couldn't say for sure if the PA would matter.  but in my opinion as long as the ration was 2 to 1 and the diameters were the same then it really shouldn't matter about the PA.  id say give it a shot since you have the 14 1/2 cutters already.  the gears he recommends if you buy them are PIC Design part numbers J1-30 and J1-60.  not sure if that's a 1 or an L after the J  so maybe its JL-30 and JL-60 as the plans appear to have been typed with an old timey typewriter like I had in high schools instead of a word processor or pc.

hopefully one of the more experienced ones can answer for sure on the PA question.


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## werowance (Apr 15, 2020)

Mow said:


> I  am attempting to build this same engine.  I have started but I'm not nearly along as you are.  I do have a question about the gears.  Would it make a difference if 14 1/2 pressure angle cutters were used instead of the 20 degree cutters? I have access to 14 1/2 degree cutters.
> 
> Hopefully I can make a little progress on the engine in the next few weeks.  Thank you for posting all this information on your build.  It has spurred me into building mine!
> 
> Mow


 

Also,  have you posted any of your build logs yet?  id like to see them if you have.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 15, 2020)

The pressure angle doesn't matter as long as it's the same on both gears. The important thing is to have an exact 2:1 ratio between the two gears. The center to center dimension given in the plans is based on adding half the pitch diameter of the two gears together to get a perfect center to center distance. If you use different gears, then you have to adjust the center to center distance to suit the gears you use.  The cam runs on the same shaft as the large gear, and probably if the cam position doesn't change too much +/- 1/16" it should still work okay.


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## Mow (Apr 15, 2020)

Thanks Werowance for the information...   I really just started on it but I have to figure out how to post pictures.  This will be my first IC engine.  I'll have to swallow my pride and be embarrassed because of my weak craftsman ship compared to other engines I see here..LOL

And thanks, Brian.  Changing the pressure angle may change the pitch diameter to accommodate the required necessary 60 teeth.  I think I have it now.

Looks like the best thing would be to buy the correct cutters.  

Thanks for the help


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## awake (Apr 15, 2020)

Mow said:


> Changing the pressure angle may change the pitch diameter to accommodate the required necessary 60 teeth.



No, actually changing the PA does not change the pitch diameter for a given number of teeth. (Changing the DP or modulus of the gear is what will change the pitch diameter.) So if your plans call for, say, 30 and 60 tooth, 32DP, 20PA gears, you could instead use 30 and 60 tooth, 32DP, 14.5PA gears without changing anything else.


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## Mow (Apr 15, 2020)

Ok, I will try with the 14 1/2 cutters and see what happens.  I will post the results when done.

Thanks for all the help.  I don't want to interfere with Werowance's build thread..


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## L98fiero (Apr 16, 2020)

Mow said:


> Ok, I will try with the 14 1/2 cutters and see what happens.  I will post the results when done.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.  I don't want to interfere with Werowance's build thread..


Larger pressure angles are for added strength and less undercut on small diameter pinions. According to Boston Gear,
"While 20°PA is generally recognized as having higher load carrying capacity, 14-1/2°PA gears have extensive use. The lower pressure angle results in less change in backlash due to center distance variation and concentricity errors. It also provides a higher contact ratio
and consequent smoother, quieter operation provided that undercut of teeth is not present."
and
"On 14-1/2°PA gears undercutting occurs where a number of teeth is less than 32 and for 20°PA less than 18. Since this condition becomes more severe as tooth numbers decrease, it is recommended that the minimum number of teeth be 16 for 14-1/2°PA and 13 for 20°PA."


			https://www.bostongear.com/-/media/Files/Literature/Brand/boston-gear/catalogs/p-1930-bg-sections/p-1930-bg_engineering-info-spur-gears.ashx


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## werowance (Apr 16, 2020)

I am getting close to getting into the real work on making the piston rod.  been milling down a piece of stock to roughly the right size.  this will be my first 2 piece rod ever and I know I have seen some people making 2 piece rods out there in the past but when I do a search for 2 piece rod I'm really not getting any good hits.  anyone have a post they have done with details about how to do it?

here is what I think I will try if I don't find any more information on it:

start with a piece of stock about .005 or so thicker than what I need.  square the end of it.   then drill the holes where the cap screw will go and tap the holes.  then slice off enough of that end and square it and the cutoff piece back up.  then the cutoff piece which I will call the cap from here on  I will clearance drill those holes.   then from there I will mount the main piece of stock in the vice laying flat,  find the edge where I cut the cap off from and then bolt the cap back on and drill /ream  through the cap and rod stock together.  then tram over and get the hole for the wrist pin side of the rod.   the rest of the procedure is no problem for me to do as its like making a single piece rod from there.

and the reason for leaving .005 extra was just incase the cap was a little offset one side or the other when bolted back together and drilled.  that way I could just lay the rod on a belt sander and bring it all down to correct thickness with both parts bolted together.   what do you all think about this setup?  will it work?  is there easier better ways? - without CNC lol

thanks in advance.


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## awake (Apr 16, 2020)

weworance, I haven't made a two part rod yet, so take this with the appropriate grain of salt, but what you describes sounds like a good plan to me.


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## Cogsy (Apr 16, 2020)

That's pretty much exactly how I make them.


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## tjmatx (Apr 17, 2020)

I have had good luck with this process on my Upshur.  I did, however, add one step;  after cutting off the cap, I "folded" it over and placed it on the larger piece of the rod so the two cutoff surfaces were on the same plane.  Then I milled off a few thou so the surfaces became  exactly parallel (my description isn't very good here).  Then I had very good matching surfaces when the cap is bolted to the rod and ready for drilling/reaming.


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## werowance (Apr 17, 2020)

not sure I understand the folded over part


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## tjmatx (Apr 17, 2020)

Yeah, that part I'm having trouble describing...  Imagine the top surface of the rod if you lay it flat.  Then, after cutting off the cap, lay the rod flat again, place the cap back where it was before cutting it off and flip the cap toward to wrist pin end of the rod so that the two, former top sides are together.  (I expect there is a perfect technical name for this but it is beyond my hobby-level of expertise) The two sawn-off surfaces should now form one surface, twice as thick as the stock.  Hold the two pieces in the mill in this position and mill the surfaces together to form one perfectly flat surface.  Then when you flip the cap back to its permanent position you will have to very well matched surfaces to bolt together.  The assumption being that milled surfaces will be better matched than sawn surfaces.  If your sawn surfaces are really good, then none of this is worthwhile.  (wow, the writing is very lacking here).


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## CFLBob (Apr 17, 2020)

werowance said:


> not sure I understand the folded over part



Glad you said that - this lost me several posts ago.  I need a picture of what the finished one looks like.  Does two part mean that it's split at the crankshaft?


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## werowance (Apr 17, 2020)

oh I get what your saying.  essentially you are milling / squaring the large piece and the small cap piece edge at the same time thus its matched.  now what I was going to do is one at a time mill the ends flat,  then surface plate them just slightly to remove the mill marks but I'm thinking your idea might work better.  at the least it would mean milling the 2 parts at the same time thus saving time.


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## werowance (Apr 17, 2020)

CFLBob said:


> Glad you said that - this lost me several posts ago.  I need a picture of what the finished one looks like.  Does two part mean that it's split at the crankshaft?


  yep,  split at the crank since the crank shaft is built up the only way to get a rod on it for it to be split.  like a briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine would be.


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## wthomas (Apr 18, 2020)

tjmatx is right about the folding over.  If you do it and the mill head is off one degree it will not matter as when you fold it back down
the angles match.  The only thing I would do different is I would not drill clearance in the cap.  I would ream the cap to just .001" or .002" 
over the bolt size at the same time I drilled and tapped the rod.  This should give an exact match of bolt holes.


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2020)

Last night i got the stock cut down and squared in the vice to drill and tap the 2-56 holes and evidently the shop gremlins hid my pack of 2-56 taps after i finished building the webster engine.  them little buggers.  that pack also had my #50 drill for the tap as well.  hopefully a local supply place will have some i can pick up today if i am lucky,  but i stopped after i spot drilled for the first screw since i didnt have the proper drill or tap for it.

also the plans say to use a shcs for the caps which i dont have in 2-56 but i do have 2-56 threaded rod.  which makes me wonder if studs would be better for the rod cap vs shcs?


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2020)

oh, and on top of the question about doing studs instead of shcs for the cap screws,  i did a little work on the homeade points for the engine.  instead of mounting premade auto points from the car parts store this engine has you make your own - which is something i want to try instead of mounting pre bought points.  so the plans say to take the points contacts out of pre purchased points and solder them into the homeade points assembly.

so a few questions on that.
1.  do they make just the contactors (for sale) so that i wouldnt have to remove them from pre-made points, if so where to look or whats a better search term than just "points"
2.  arent the contacts just tungsten steel?  could a piece of tungsten steel rod be purchased easily and turned down to correct size using carbide tooling?  (i have no idea how hard tungsten is or anything here)
3.  if i can just buy a piece of tungsten would there be any heat treating or anything needed here after cutting to size?


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## awake (Apr 23, 2020)

Weworance, I'll take a stab at the questions you raised, but please note that I am answering based on what I have read, not what I have personally done.

As I understand it, the contacts are indeed simply tungsten. According to one book, they are available for purchase ... but if so, I have no idea where. I had thought about, if I ever try to make my own points, getting a 1/8" TIG electrode and cutting it to size.

As far as machining the tungsten, I don't think carbide will cut it (if you will forgive the pun). You can grind a TIG electrode using an aluminum oxide wheel, but not quickly; diamond is the "correct" choice. If I were to attempt this, I would think about getting a thin diamond cutoff wheel to cut it, and then hone it to size on a diamond "stone."

I don't think there is any heat treatment needed (or even possible??). The book that I referenced above talks about silver-soldering the tungsten in place.


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## tjmatx (Apr 23, 2020)

Interesting:  my plans show 4-40 screws for the connecting rod cap.  You might want to consider those if it's not too late.

I got the plans from the Upshur site about a year ago.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 23, 2020)

It won't make any difference if you use socket head capscrews or studs and nuts. Either will work fine. As far as ignition is concerned--I made up a set of points and it gave intermittent results. After screwing around for a whole day, I used automotive points and the engine ran immediately.---Brian


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2020)

tjmatx said:


> Interesting:  my plans show 4-40 screws for the connecting rod cap.  You might want to consider those if it's not too late.
> 
> I got the plans from the Upshur site about a year ago.


that's interesting,  I double checked mine and its 2-56 with a smaller diameter or width of rod as well as shorter.  I got my plans emailed to me from some of his family as the site is and was down.  but he shared them with me for free however I did make a paypal donation to him for his trouble.

was yours the vertical or the horizontile farm engine model?

your drawings are dated 1977 but mine are dated 1996.  with the smaller width as well as how close the hole already is to the edge I don't think 4-40 will work and I already started the drill


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2020)

and I take that back,  UpshurEngineWorks.com is back up and running.  wasn't a few weeks ago when someone else was asking me about it.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 23, 2020)

Werowance--I just checked---The head of a #4-40 shcs is 0.180" diameter. The width of the narrow part of your con rod is .312-(.047+.047)=0.218. Going in the other direction, 0.330-.244=.086" which is very very close to 1/2 the diameter of a #4 shcs. A #2-56 thread is smaller than a #4-40 shcs, so you should be able to redrill the holes and use a #4-40 shcs. the head doesn't have to be counterbored.


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## werowance (Apr 23, 2020)

ok, sounds like a plan.  ill shoot for 4-40 threads.  worse case ill turn the part around and try again from the other end if its to wide.

and one more thing.  and I know I ask this a lot.  but I get it wrong a lot.  if it calls for a .09 radius then I need to use a .18 drill (#15) correct? and offset by .09 up and left to mark for center punch so to speak.  right?


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## tjmatx (Apr 23, 2020)

To be honest... on things like the general shape of the rod, especially the shaft, I didn't worry much about the plans specs.  I just kind of winged it and used my Harbor Freight 1" belt sander to shape it.  Part of the reason for that is I don't have a lot of specialized tools that would help, like a rotary table.  One thing I noticed about these plans is he doesn't have a notation for tolerances, or maybe I missed it.  It seems like there are some places where he specifies down to 100th or 1000th when it doesn't really matter a lot except for beautification.   Example is the valve seat cutting tool.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 23, 2020)

Yes, your calculation should put the radius where it needs to be. Tjmatx---On the issue of tolerances--there is a set formula for tolerances, and in general, they are a pain in the arse. On something like one of these small engines, there are probably only 5 or 6 dimensions that really need to be toleranced to make the engine work correctly. People who design hobby engines assume that anyone clever enough to build their own engines will know which dimensions should be held to very close tolerances and which dimensions are 'open', meaning they are +/- .030". I make plan sets all the time, and I just set my drawing software to dimension to three decimal places. ---Brian


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## fabricator (Apr 23, 2020)

It is actually completely against any known laws of physics how a small part can gain enough energy from a short fall to roll under the exact center of the nearest most inaccessible piece of heavy machinery.


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## tjmatx (Apr 23, 2020)

Brian.   Good to know and makes a lot of sense.


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## Mow (Apr 24, 2020)

werowance said:


> that's interesting,  I double checked mine and its 2-56 with a smaller diameter or width of rod as well as shorter.  I got my plans emailed to me from some of his family as the site is and was down.  but he shared them with me for free however I did make a paypal donation to him for his trouble.
> 
> was yours the vertical or the horizontile farm engine model?
> 
> your drawings are dated 1977 but mine are dated 1996.  with the smaller width as well as how close the hole already is to the edge I don't think 4-40 will work and I already started the drill



The Farm Engine uses the 4-40 cap screws and my plans are dated 1977 but the Vertical uses 2-56 cap screws and the plans are dated 1996.


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## werowance (Apr 24, 2020)

fabricator said:


> It is actually completely against any known laws of physics how a small part can gain enough energy from a short fall to roll under the exact center of the nearest most inaccessible piece of heavy machinery.


well put.  it is amazing how that always seems to be the case


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## rsholl (Apr 24, 2020)

Individual Tungsten points are available here:     S/S Machine & Engineering, LLC

Left hand column, first item listed in "NON CDI IGNITION SYSTEMS"


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## werowance (Apr 24, 2020)

rsholl said:


> Individual Tungsten points are available here:     S/S Machine & Engineering, LLC
> 
> Left hand column, first item listed in "NON CDI IGNITION SYSTEMS"


Thank you for that.  I just ordered the contacts as well as a spark plug for them.


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## tjmatx (May 2, 2020)

fabricator said:


> It is actually completely against any known laws of physics how a small part can gain enough energy from a short fall to roll under the exact center of the nearest most inaccessible piece of heavy machinery.


I completely agree.  I would even add that in my cramped shop, there is something going on where the fallen part is most likely to end up hiding behind a bench leg or cabinet wheel.  I am constantly astonished by how often that happens, way beyond the laws of chance.   I suspect it has something to do with quantum tunneling, which is a total mystery to me.


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## fabricator (May 2, 2020)

Exactly, it has to be something like that, what's that other one called? Quantum tangelment? Has to be involved too.


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## Art K (May 2, 2020)

I think you just have shop elves, they jump out and grab things out of midair and drop them in the most unlikely places.
Art


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## fabricator (May 2, 2020)

I'm fine with that, sneaky little busterds.


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## karlw144 (May 3, 2020)

I call it “lateral gravity”, you drop it and almost before it hits the floor, it’s going sideways! Often easier to make another part, and 3 days later the dropped bit is laying in plain site.


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## fabricator (May 3, 2020)

Well yeah but, I think the shop elves fits the observations better. The lateral gravity would have to be intermittent or something and that would need a whole new line of study.


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## RonW (May 3, 2020)

fabricator said:


> Well yeah but, I think the shop elves fits the observations better. The lateral gravity would have to be intermittent or something and that would need a whole new line of study.


And they're all named Murphy. As in Murphy's third law: why be awkward when with a little bit of effort you can be plain bl__dy obstinate!
There endeth the lesson. RonW


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## fabricator (May 3, 2020)

I live and learn.


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## JohnBDownunder (May 4, 2020)

Them there Shop Elves and in my case Gremlins got a whole lot to answer for if ever somebody catches em.     Not sure which one most resembles the little monster that seems to inhabit my playpen.


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## werowance (May 4, 2020)

well after the third attempt i finally have the start of a 2 piece rod after this weekend.  i broke 2 drills.  the slitting saw left a really nice finish that required almost 0 touch up. you could hardly see the parting line when bolted back together.  now i need to figure out how i am going to scribe and cut the 1.75 deg angle on the rod.  i just cant think of an easy way to lay that out.  ill do some reading of other posts for ideas before i start and i will probably waste a lot of dykem marking and remarking multiple times until i figure out how im going to do it.   but here are some pictures of the start of the rod


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## werowance (May 4, 2020)

and i like the lateral gravity idea.  that seems to explain alot


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## Brian Rupnow (May 4, 2020)

Regarding the 1.75 degrees on the rod. If you have a cad program to work by, or even if you can lay it out on a piece of paper, the center of the radius at each end is the center of a "hole" twice the diameter of a radius. So--best way is to start with an over-width piece of stock, determine where the four holes should be, and drill them thru. Then take a short piece of round stock the size of the hole and press in two short pieces about 1" long. Now set the con-rod up in your vice with the two pins resting on top of a parallel setting on top of the vice jaw. Tighten the vice and then remove the round rods and the parallel and the tool path will be truly horizontal. And it will be 1.75 degrees from the centerline of the rod. The problem with using a narrow piece of material to start with is that you can't drill a hole which is only partly on the stock.


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## awake (May 4, 2020)

werowance said:


> now i need to figure out how i am going to scribe and cut the 1.75 deg angle on the rod.  i just cant think of an easy way to lay that out.



Weworance, will you be using a rotary table for any of this, e.g., for rounding the small end? If so, if you set up your fixture to hold the rod such that you know where it is straight, then you can dial in the 1.75° on the table. (That doesn't help with marking it, just with cutting.)


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## werowance (May 4, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Regarding the 1.75 degrees on the rod. If you have a cad program to work by, or even if you can lay it out on a piece of paper, the center of the radius at each end is the center of a "hole" twice the diameter of a radius.


well my problem is that the piston end of the rod does not give a radius there.  but yes I have seen you and others do it the way you describe and leave drill bits in the holes and let the rod be supported by the vice jaws with the drill bits thus you have your slope from one end to the other.  but I'm just not seeing it on these drawings.  and on top of that the plans call for it to be turned length wise in the late to make it some what of a cylindrical shape lengthwise.  maybe that's how I'm supposed to achieve the 1.75 taper.  use my compound set at 1.76 when turning the cylindrical shape of the rod?  I think the whole engine was designed to be able to be done on a lathe only but if I can figure it out id rather do the area between crank and piston holes on the mill.

in the shot below on the crank side he does give a radius on both edges but on the piston side he doesnt


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## Brian Rupnow (May 4, 2020)




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## CFLBob (May 4, 2020)

Brian - how does someone know where to measure the rod to get the 0.349"?  That number is only valid at one point along the length because of the taper.  The .359 measurement appears to be where the .09 radius curve into the base starts while the 0.349 appears to be some distance left of that radius.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 4, 2020)

That number is a "resultant". It is actually a "result" of using hard, solid numbers and a "true" 1.75 degrees. If you look at the original drawing it says "about 1.75 degrees". "Hard" numbers are given numbers that I arbitrarily use to develop the geometry.


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## Cogsy (May 4, 2020)

werowance said:


> and on top of that the plans call for it to be turned length wise in the late to make it some what of a cylindrical shape lengthwise.



Bear in mind that the radius on the outside of the rod might be needed for clearance to the cylinder skirt at half stroke. I don't know about this engine but on some the rod will foul if left 'square'.


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## werowance (May 5, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


>


now that is very much appreciated.   with this I can drill the radius holes on both ends and mill it out.  then if I need I can still turn it for piston skirt clearance if need be.

question,  how did you arrive at the r.211 at the piston end of the rod?  best guess or was there something in the original drawing that allowed you to calculate that as I was trying to figure that part out as well last night.

thank you very much for this


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## Brian Rupnow (May 5, 2020)

Post #422 shows a note calling for .244" spherical diameter.


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## werowance (May 5, 2020)

well smacking my forehead and shaking my head in disbeliefe of my blind ignorance.  I'm going to say you meant post 249 but yeah,  the plans sure enough plainly state .244.   I hate when I ask and do stupid things like that.

but I really do appreciate the help.  cant wait to get back to the shop and start laying it all out.  hopefully there will be enough room to drill those radius without breaking through the sides but if not I will clamp some of the cutoff leftovers of the same thickness so when I do the drill it wont walk off center on me.

thank you until you are paid better as my mom used to say.


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## werowance (May 5, 2020)

yesterday I received my points contacts as well as a 1/4 - 32 spark plug from the same place.  ill have to say that plug is a lot smaller that a cm6 plug like I used in the Webster.  I wont be able to use a regular spark plug cable like I did with the cm6 either.  thought about enlarging the port for a cm6 but I kind of like the look of that little bitty plug so I'm going go with that since that's what the plans called for anyway.  a US penny just for size reference


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## Brian Rupnow (May 5, 2020)

If you go that from Roy Sholl, he also sells boots and cable that work with that size of plug.


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## CFLBob (May 5, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> That number is a "resultant". It is actually a "result" of using hard, solid numbers and a "true" 1.75 degrees. If you look at the original drawing it says "about 1.75 degrees". "Hard" numbers are given numbers that I arbitrarily use to develop the geometry.


I saw that it came from the different angle because of the note where you explained it.  My question was that the dimension appears to be 1/4" to the left of the of where the other width is stated to be 0.359".


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## Brian Rupnow (May 5, 2020)

On the original drawing and on my drawing also, that dimensions is taken at the point where the side of the con rod begins to transition into the radius.


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## werowance (May 6, 2020)

just double checking before I clamp on some extra material and drill these holes for the radi that what I have circled in red is truly the center mark for the drill?   the reason I ask is I recall having a devil of a time finding the center mark for the radi on the Webster engine on the support frame because the angle was not an exact 90deg  more of a 60 deg angle and thus my center mark was not coming out right because I was not taking that into consideration.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 6, 2020)

Yes, you have it right.


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## werowance (May 11, 2020)

finally managed to get a rod made.  third attempt and its not perfect either.  after a test install I found that the wider than plans called for cam lobes are likely going to interfere,  Ill be able to say for sure after I get a wrist pin made for the piston and can do a trial assembly.  but oh well if it does ill then them down to per plan specs and re do my spacers.  I'm glad I hadn't lock tighted the lobes in place yet.


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## werowance (May 21, 2020)

not very much progress lately but I did manage to get the wrist pin made with brass insert tips on both sides.  hope to do a mock up assembly now that I have the wrist pin and verify if the rod really is going to hit the cams or not.


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## CFLBob (May 21, 2020)

werowance said:


> I did manage to get the wrist pin made with brass insert tips on both sides.



Very nice looking touch.  I might have to copy that on my Webster.  I read "brass insert tips" as rounded pieces of brass attached to the ends of the wrist pin?  Was that with a pin on the back to locate them or something?


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## werowance (May 21, 2020)

the wrist pin is center drilled all the way through.  then 2 pieces of brass round stock is turned down to match the size of the wrist pin,  then a little tit is cut on the tip of the brass to fit the drill hole.  it is pressed in with lock tight.  plans said aluminum, brass or copper would work,  plans also said an aluminum rivet would work well as well.  

this piston has no retaining method of holding it in place like the Webster.  short of lock tight when you assemble it so the brass tips are to prevent cylinder wall scoring in the event the lock tight fails and the pin moves to one side or the other.


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## werowance (May 21, 2020)

maybe it was in the written portion he says copper or maybe I just dreamed that up or something.  at any rate drawing portion says alum or brass.  doesn't mention copper so strike that one


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## CFLBob (May 21, 2020)

That's sort of what I was envisioning.  Take a small piece of brass, turn it down to a pin, then turn it around and use the pin to hold it while gently making a dome on the end.  Drilling along the length of the wrist pin is an easy job.


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## werowance (May 21, 2020)

well,  how I did it was press and lock tight the over length (longer than need be)brass pieces with the tits on them  in the steel wrist pin.  then after the loctight had time to dry I chucked the wrist pin in and faced the brass off down to the proper size and thought about using a form tool to dome it,  even my ball turner came to mind,  but in the end it was such a thin piece I just used a file and hand formed the dome shape to it.  polished with a little fine grit sand paper and steel wool


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## ALEX1952 (May 22, 2020)

HI
PTFE used to be used for buttons in model aircraft engines, probably because most had hard chrome liners, still may be of use in builds such as this.


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## Tim1974 (May 23, 2020)

I’m wating for these for same job and so cheep


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## werowance (Jun 1, 2020)

so not much progress happening.  i have been working through clearance issues with the piston rod.  1.  it hits the brass spacer between the two cam lobes (spacer not part of the drawings) so i am making a new spacer that is super thin walled, also thinning the cams down to close to drawing thickness as it hit those as well.  surface plate and sand paper to do that.  i want the spacers just to make it easier to stack everything up. the spacer blank is so thin walled i pushed the cam shaft into it to keep it from colapsing when thinning it down  2. then the side of the rod is hitting the bottom of the cylinder wall.  to remedy that i spent hours filing and sanding, test fitting and repeat.  it now clears like it should.   3.  on the tappet guides.  plans say to locktite them in place but since my top plate is bronze and the guides are brass would it be better to solder them in place?


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## minh-thanh (Jun 1, 2020)

*werowance !*
I think it has no effect on the cam lobe,  if it is only partially cut or shortened by 0.5 or 1 mm






If you are sure everything is ok, you can solder.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 1, 2020)

I wouldn't take a chance on putting more heat into the top plate. There is no real loading on the tappet guides. I would use Loctite.---Brian


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## werowance (Jun 1, 2020)

minh-thanh said:


> *werowance !*
> I think it has no effect on the cam lobe,  if it is only partially cut or shortened by 0.5 or 1 mm
> 
> View attachment 116779
> ...




Mihn Thanh,  i actually did thin or "cut" the cams as you show.  they were wider than per plans anyway so what i did was surface plate sand them down thinner like you show the cut.  i just sanded instead of cut.  started out with 220 grit then on up to 800 grit to get rid of the side marks that no one would have seen anyway.   now that brass spacer in between the 2 cams needs to be longer and also smaller diamater because the rod actually strikes that as well.

thanks for the suggestion though.


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## werowance (Jun 1, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> I wouldn't take a chance on putting more heat into the top plate. There is no real loading on the tappet guides. I would use Loctite.---Brian




Thanks Brian,  i actually was thinking about the heat and maybe re-melting the cylinder solder when i was asking.  you just confirmed my fear of that.

i appreciate the feed back on that.  ill locktite them when comes time for final assembly then.


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## werowance (Jun 15, 2020)

well very little progress this month so far.  real work and home work both are a lot busier than normal.  garden, yard and sawmill at home have need a lot of attention this month.  at any rate I managed to get everything to clear and rotate.  then started on the points brass pieces.  one of the brass pieces called for .025 brass shim stock which I didn't have so I started sanding some thicker stock down to the right thickness.  was having a hard time holding it then I remembered seeing a trick on this website of super gluing the stock to a larger parent stock (aka an old cutting bit) and man does that make a world of difference when trying to thin down shim stock on a surface plate.

the mock up photo with the gear cover on it is just hanging there not really glued on yet so if you see the gap at the top of the gear cover its just hanging on a gear tooth just for the picture

and then last a few pics from my yard/garden work lately


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 15, 2020)

Very nice progress and pictures.---Brian


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## werowance (Jun 16, 2020)

another spacer made last night.  this one to keep the points cam from rubbing the outer race of the ball bearing.  if I had thought about it I would have machined a little lip or something on the cam to prevent that but I didn't so a teeny tiny thin walled brass spacer was made.  and then a partial mock up of the points setup.


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## werowance (Jun 22, 2020)

finished up the points this weekend.  threading that 4-40 brass rod was a concern of mine but it came out good and didnt bend on me.  on the capacitor,  plans call for a .2 or .3 micafarrad rated for 300 or 400 volts.   what it doesnt say is electrolytic, ceramic disk or etc...  any recomendations for this?  a regular points condensor would probably look large and out of place on this engine but that may be what i have to do...

guess next will be the flywheel sleeve and ordering some cast iron to make some rings out of


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 22, 2020)

Looking really good Werowance. I made up a set of points like yours for one of the first engines I built---Might have been the Webster. I got such intermittent results  from them that I took them off and bought a set of Dodge car points from the local auto supply store. I have used Dodge points on my i.c. builds ever since.---Brian


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## rsholl (Jun 22, 2020)

What coil are you going to use? I use a .1uf 400 volt poly cap for my 6 volt model coil. I also have .22 in 630 volts but they are slightly larger. Panasonic ECW-FA2J224J .22 @ 630 volts. The .1 is the smallest at 400 volts but I don't have a part no. handy. Let me know by email and I will send you one or both.
Roy


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## werowance (Jun 23, 2020)

12 volt ford coil,  thank you for the part numbers.   Roy id like to purchse one or 2 from youif that's ok,  with your permission ill pm you?

Brain,  on the points I considered using store bought points like I did on the Webster but I just wanted to give this a shot and see what it was like and how to do it.  honestly if this one works any future builds will be done with electronic hall effect ignition just for the ease of it.  less hasell, less space taken up on the side of the engine etc..  but then again the only experience I have on electronic iginition is when I changed my old farmall from points to a pertronix iginition.   no more dead points after that.


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## werowance (Jun 23, 2020)

is "CL 40" acceptable for cast iron piston rings?  i normally look for the words pearlitic gray cast iron or Durabar but cant find any at an acceptable cost.  but CL 40 is available at reasonable pricing.


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## rsholl (Jun 24, 2020)

Use my S/S Machine email and send me your address so I can get a couple of the .22's in the mail to you.


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## werowance (Jun 24, 2020)

rsholl said:


> Use my S/S Machine email and send me your address so I can get a couple of the .22's in the mail to you.



Email sent.  and THANK YOU for your help.


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## werowance (Jun 24, 2020)

last night I worked on the flywheel busing.  made from steel and press fitted into the string starting pully hub and flywheel.  had to make it twice before I got a press fit.  and its a tight press fit as well.  put the shaft in a container of ice to shrink it a bit then some green locktight and the arbor press put it in its place.  I left excess material so I could easily re chuck it and cross drill for the set screw and then ill part it off.
on the set screw,  plans call for 1 screw but what do you think of cross drilling all the way through so I could do a set screw on both sides?  wouldn't that be better?

then on the cast iron question again,  anyone know if CL40 is acceptable for piston rings?


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## ironman (Jun 24, 2020)

werowance, where did you get your 60 tooth and 30 tooth gears?  Did they have hubs on them?


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## werowance (Jun 25, 2020)

ironman said:


> werowance, where did you get your 60 tooth and 30 tooth gears?  Did they have hubs on them?





I made them my self.  messed up a few time doing it as well.

But the plans suggest they can be purchased from PIC design at 800-243-6125 Part Numbers JL-30 and JL-60 hubless.  that may be J1 instead of JL as the plans were done using a type writer so the L and The 1 looks the same.

what I did was looked up the part numbers and looked at the spec pdfs for the gears then cut my own from those specs.


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## werowance (Jun 25, 2020)

finished up the 3 piece flywheel lastnight.  made the executive decision to do 2 set screws, one on each side.


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## werowance (Jun 25, 2020)

oh and in one of my tool boxes I found a piece of store bought Cast Iron.  I kept trying to remember where / when I bought it and then remembered its left over from my failed BJ cicada build.  it was pealitic gray cast iron so should be exactly what I need for the rings.  thank goodness cause the PG CI listings were very expensive.  I assume due to the covid virus or something.  I know 1 lb pack of hamburger was 7.00 US at the grocery store yesterday....


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## L98fiero (Jun 26, 2020)

werowance said:


> finished up the 3 piece flywheel lastnight.  made the executive decision to do 2 set screws, one on each side.


Generally, setscrews shouldn't be on opposite sides, look at any hub with 2 setscrews and they'll be at 90° to each other. My understanding is that the idea/engineering behind it is that the two setscrews create a stable triangle with the line contact between the shaft and the bore that prevents rocking and subsequent loosening of the screws. Two setscrews on opposite sides aren't better than one and the problem is that if the fit isn't tight already, it allows the hub to rock on the shaft, one screw would probably be better as there would be a wider contact 'line' opposite the screw to prevent the rocking.


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## werowance (Jun 26, 2020)

ok not a problem.  ill just use 1 screw on once side or the other only.  but good info to have.  thanks for that.


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## werowance (Jun 29, 2020)

Capacitors received and THANK YOU Mr Sholl.  I really appreciate it.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jun 29, 2020)

Set screws should be 90 degrees apart, not 180. I must have put that note on about ten thousand shaft and hub drawings. "Set screw and set screw on quarter".---Brian


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## werowance (Jul 3, 2020)

well build on hold for a week or so....    maybe I can 3d print a stand or base or something in the mean time


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## minh-thanh (Jul 3, 2020)

What happened ?


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## werowance (Jul 3, 2020)

got burned.  even blistered the tip of my nose and the corner of my lips.   hand is just one giant nasty liquid filled blister....

had a bag full of greasy oily and gas soaked shop rags from cleaning out the metal form the stearing box on my farmall when repairing a broken retaing clip.   threw them in the outdoor wood boiler which I use for hot water this time of year.  shut the door.   came back about 10 or so mins later and threw a stick of wood in it for the night.   the gas had fumed up inside and when the stove wood hit the smoldering coals it sparked up and goes boom with may arm half way in the fire box and the side of my face in the path of the fire ball.   

now I know better than that but I just didn't think....   stupid me and a good reminder,


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## minh-thanh (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm sorry to hear that.
Take a rest !


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 3, 2020)

Jaysus Boy--Keep the fire in the stove where it belongs!!! You have my sympathy--I've had a couple of nasty burns over my working life, and I know how it hurts.---Brian


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## awake (Jul 3, 2020)

Ouch! Glad it wasn't even worse - but looks bad enough!


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## CFLBob (Jul 4, 2020)

Yow!  Looks like at least a week without use.  Hope you're not left handed.


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## Art K (Jul 4, 2020)

Hey, do what the doctors tell you to do and don't push it. Heal up fast!
Art


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## SmithDoor (Jul 4, 2020)

That photo looks painful.
I hope you have fast recovery.

Dave


werowance said:


> well build on hold for a week or so....    maybe I can 3d print a stand or base or something in the mean time
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 117555


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## werowance (Jul 14, 2020)

well hand about healed up enough to get back in the garage with it.  hopefully i will get some piston rings made over the next few days.  i plan to use the method on this web page to do it as it seems to be the most common way to make them.  http://users.tpg.com.au/agnet/make piston rings.html

ill just be carefull with the torch when expanding the rings lol


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 14, 2020)

Oh No---Godzilla fingers!!!


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## Art K (Jul 14, 2020)

Well, that's not a pretty picture but presumably they all wiggle and bend where they aught to.
Art


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## werowance (Jul 15, 2020)

well started picking up where I left off last night and 1.  I couldn't find my big adjustable wrench I use for the er32 collet chuck as well as the qctp so I had a time getting the er32 removed so I could put the 3 jaw on.  shop faries must have hidden it while I was out.

then remembered that I still had a spacer or 2 to make to center the crank over the cylinder.  which brings a question,  I see no easy way to measure to get the rod centered in the cylinder so what I did was to rotate the crank until the rod found where it wanted to ride in the piston on the wrist pin which appeared to be by eye to be centered and that's where it wanted to move to when running it by hand.  after that I used feeler gauges to measure the gap between the gear anf crank web and the gear and ball bearing and made 2 spacers.  the last spacer on the other side will be easy once I have the opposite side spaced where it needs to be.   does this sound ok?  other suggestions?

then I made a dew quick cleanup passes on some cast iron to start making rings.


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## Art K (Jul 15, 2020)

When I originally made mine, I had no CAD or CNC mill and I made shims to center the crank. In my rebuild I did everything in cad to the center line of the case. Hopefully it will come out as expected, Dead center. I still haven't heard from my nephew about the computer rebuild for my mill.
Art


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## werowance (Jul 22, 2020)

on vacation this week and am doing all sorts of canning and garden work.  did find time to get some rings done.  started to install them but plans say "do not install at this time"  so im holding.   
the technique i used said the rings would fall when hot enough.   they do not.  not unless i melt them.  but i heated to a bright red and held them there for a bit.  then let them naturally cool.  they held the shape and springyness (technical term).  i filed the gap on one of them and tested it in the cylinder.  i think the technique works great.    i used a dull file handle which happened to be the right thickness for spreading the gap as per plans.  4 rings and only 2 needed.  so i have some spares just incase.

last photo was before snaping them and heat treating them.  all but the first one which was my test but was successfull.


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## werowance (Jul 30, 2020)

while waiting on some more stock to arrive so I can start on the head I decided to start on the rocker arm post.   not much to it really.  didn't have any brass square stock so I used a piece of round,  turned down the shaft portion that will insert into the head.  left it a bit long so I can put it in the collet chuck currently attached to my rotary table,  then I will mill the large end into a square shape.  all I got done was making the small shaft end last night and test fitting it in a reamed hole in a test plate I use for that.


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## werowance (Jul 31, 2020)

last night switched my combo lathe over for milling and put the rotary table down and squared that up then started milling the larger end down to a square end.  only got 2 side started which i will end up taking each side down a little at a time until i hit the mark.

22 full and then 10 holes rotation to get 90 degrees on my 20 hole indexing plate.


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## werowance (Aug 3, 2020)

almost done with the rocker post.  also should have the stock to start the head this week


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## werowance (Aug 11, 2020)

finished the rocker post (will cut off the shank when i have a head to see how long i can leave it) and started on the head.  plan to leave a "handle" on the bottom of the head so i can hold it in the rotary table in an er32 chuck so i can drill the 4 head bolt holes and such


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## werowance (Aug 14, 2020)

still working on the head but im trying to figure out the cooling fin situation in the plans.  drawing says to use a .312R cutter as well as a .531R cutter.  appears to be a slitting saw however it does not say for sure.  the instructions page also does not clarify this either.  width is .090 typ for the cut and instructions page does say that a more common .093 cutter can be used if spaced properly.  that part i do understand but my slitting saws as well as any slitting saw i find for sale are of the proper diameters.  so looks like maybe he used something else to make these cuts?   looking for how others did it.  did they use end mills or what?  or perhaps these are common size diameter slitting saws and i just am not looking at the right place to buy them or something.

any help, suggestions or tips are appreciated.


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## werowance (Aug 14, 2020)

so ive been thinking about this alot and maybe have some possible solutions i wanted to throw out there and see what you all think.  1 was to do the fly cutter type method.  sort of like some use to cut gears with in the hobby,  where you make a flat bottom instead of angled bottom fly cutter and grind a hss blank to the profile of the gear tooth or in this case grind it to a parting tool shape to make the grove.  i wonder if the chatter and beating would be to much to make a grove that long?  the head is just aluminum though so soft cutting.

2 i though of cutting a couple of steel disks to the correct diameter and thickness with a hole in center for an arbor.  then while mounted on an arbor put it in the rotary table and use an end mill to sort of cut some teeth all the way around?  problems i see here is it would take alot of experimenting to find the right height to set the end mill at and how deep to make the cut.  and how many degrees in between each cut.  this seems like a whole lot of work for a cutter that probably will not last long and possibly the aluminum would gob up the teeth of the cutter?

does anyone happen to have coppies of strictly ic magazine.   issues 63-66 ?  im hoping he gives more information about how he did it in those articles.  i looked at sic's website and looks like i have to mail in an order and then wait for hard coppies to come back.  which im not opposed to doing or paying for but just would take some time and is a risk that it may not even have any info on that part of the engine build.


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## CFLBob (Aug 15, 2020)

FWIW, let me emphasize that I'm not sure I understand the drawing, BUT, that .531 R feature is 1-1/16 diameter and could be cut with an end mill.  I was surprised to find they exist:








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				



Kinda expensive.  Hopefully someone else will have a better idea. 

I've never seen an Upshur Vertical Single, so I went to look at them on YouTube and see if I understood what the drawing was saying, and through six videos, I didn't see one with features like this on top.  Some of them didn't even have fins on top, let alone sculpted with cutters.  I'm guessing that means it's not essential to operation.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 15, 2020)

Werowance--A lot of guys who make engine plans make the plans based on tooling they have in their shop. There is no set "rule" for cooling fins. Use whatever tooling you already have to make the fins. A .093" cutter or a 0.100" thick cutter will work fine there. Just do a bit of math first so they come out at an even spacing.---Brian


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## werowance (Aug 19, 2020)

so the other day i decided to start making a "woodruff" cutter much like explained how to do here:





__





						Milling Cutters
					





					home.iprimus.com.au
				




i didnt have any silversteel / drill rod so i looked around my junk pile and decided to use an old drag link that i had replaced on the front of my truck a while back.   seemed to be forged steel,  spark test indicated it was hardenable so i cut a piece off and heated it with the torch and quenched it in used motor oil.  file test shows that it is able to be hardened afterwards.  its about 1.5" dia before i started cutting on it

so with that i started cutting it down to the right size.  it doesnt cut very nice so i am going slow with it.  seems that a hand ground hss tool does better than carbide with it.  but hopefully in a week or so ill have a cutter to test with .


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## awake (Aug 20, 2020)

You might try annealing a chunk to see if that improves the machinability (sp?). I have some "reclaimed" stock that I have to do that on. Even after annealing it is still hard, but machinable - before anealing it is not machinable, at least not with the tooling I typically use.


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## Sprocket (Aug 20, 2020)

awake said:


> You might try annealing a chunk to see if that improves the machinability (sp?). I have some "reclaimed" stock that I have to do that on. Even after annealing it is still hard, but machinable - before anealing it is not machinable, at least not with the tooling I typically use.


Yeah, try heat but don’t quench, just cool in air


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## L98fiero (Aug 21, 2020)

Sprocket said:


> Yeah, try heat but don’t quench, just cool in air


Better yet, bury it in Floor-Dri(kitty litter), it insulates better and let it cool overnight.


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## werowance (Aug 21, 2020)

i actually did aneal it before starting - or actually i got started and made a few cuts and then unchucked it annealed it and that's what I'm cutting on now which is better than when i started.  its not awefull but its not fcs either.  

usually when i anneal i start by heating it on a bed of sand which heats up with the steel,  hold the heat on it for a good long while at the color i want to hold it at then take a spoon and rake the already hot sand over top of it and let it sit hours or over night.  until the sand and everything is back to room temp.

the closer i get to the center the better its cutting.  I'm close to the major outside diameter i need for the small cutter now and the finish is improving a lot.  just wish i could get a little more shop time than what ive been getting lately.


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## werowance (Aug 26, 2020)

nothing much very interesting finished,  but thought i would give proof that i am still in the game so to speak.

got the blank for the small cutter ready to mill the teeth and started on the blank for the large cutter.  decided i would go directly from heat to easy bake oven (aka yard sale toaster oven i use in the garage) set to max heat which seems to be around 400 - 425f by the thermometer instead of covering in sand and allowing to cool over night.  left it in the oven several hours and unplugged it / left it when i went in for the night.  picture from this morning after it had cooled   anxious to see if that works any better for annealing it.  this oven is used for nothing but shop projects thus all the crud in the bottom.


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## CFLBob (Aug 26, 2020)

werowance said:


> decided i would go directly from heat to easy bake oven (aka yard sale toaster oven i use in the garage) set to max heat which seems to be around 400 - 425f by the thermometer instead of covering in sand and allowing to cool over night. left it in the oven several hours and unplugged it / left it when i went in for the night



Sounds like my toaster oven.  I originally took it out of the kitchen to cure powder coat paints, but I've heat treated some stuff.  

Can't tell how big it is, so maybe the chunk o' steel doesn't need this, but I put springs or other small pieces in some steel wool to increase the thermal mass, then wrap both with alu foil.  Turn off the heater and just leave it alone for a few hours.


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## werowance (Aug 27, 2020)

well, last night I got to cut the roughly 1.5 piece I had heat treated the different way.   cutting down to about 1.062 dia.  
the first face cut and center drill to support with my live center was nice and easy.  but when I went to cut it down to the right diameter it was hard as a rock,  using a carbide cutter and cutting fluid.  it was loud smokey and all that bad stuff.  finally I put a lot of presure on the cutter and it bit in and once I took that little bit of "skin" off of it,  then it was nice.  so I switched over to my hss bit and was hogging a lot of metal at once.  would bring off a full continuous piece of swarf without strain or smoke or bad noises and wasn't red hot when it came off.  I know that a spinning spiral of swarf is dangerous so I would stop the power feed every little bit to allow it to break off so I didn't have spinning razor blades of death flopping around.

but point is - other than the skin being extremely hard, after that it is cutting really nice and leaving a pretty good finish.  much better than the first one of the same steel I annealed.  so I guess letting it cool in the easy bake oven at 400 degrees is a better way of doing it.  or I got lucky.


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## werowance (Sep 1, 2020)

its been raining cats and dogs the last few days so got to play in the garage a while.
mostly finished the large cutter,  heat treated it last night.  its hard as a rock.  makes that "tink" sound like a drill bit would make when dropping it on say the base plate of the drill press.  so I'm wondering if I should temper it?   maybe draw to a light straw color?  or what would you all do?
on the diameter,  I forgot that I would have to cut past the center line for the teeth which reduces the diameter of the cutter just a tad so to compensate I made the shaft a little smaller so It would clear when cutting to depth on the head.  I will have to do the same with the smaller cutter as well.   so note to self,  when making these you have to go larger than the cutting diameter you want to end up with.  

last picture shows the rain starting to end.  it was a double rainbow but by the time I got my phone out and unlocked it the 2nd rainbow was about gone. taken from my garage bay door


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## werowance (Sep 3, 2020)

i decided i would test the cutters last night.  i did not temper them nor could i find my diamond hone so i did not hone the teeth any.  so the cutters are as they were after heat treating and cleaning off the burnt oil on them.

results i think were great.  cutting noise / vibration was almost 0.  felt and sounded like cutting with a slitting saw.  the small cutter i did not make the teeth as deep so they were filling up with oil/aluminum sludge so i kept blowing it out with the air nozzel while cutting (safety googles on doing this).  on cutting feed rate - i pushed them as fast as they seemed to want to go which was also about as fast as a slitting saw.  i even made a cut at full depth in a single pass and they handled it just fine.  also i was concerned that aluminum would start hard cakeing on the teeth like it does on carbide insert cutters when hogging aluminum without cutting fluid.  you have to chip off the i guess its melted on aluminum off the tip of the cutter.  but on these cutters it didnt stick on.  i just blew them clean when finished and wiped them off.

finish is pretty good as well.  the side walls of each cut are really smoothe but the bottom has lines in it along the path of the cut as well as some slight what looks like chatter marks.  im sure after i hone it then then at least the lines along the cut path will dissapear and it might even get rid of the chatter marks.  but honestly i can live with finish as is.  

so all in all im really impressed that how easy it is to make these.  if i had used drill rod instead of mystery steel then i believe it would have been even better and easier.  i made these with 10 teeth.


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## JohnBDownunder (Sep 4, 2020)

Isn't it great when you test a DIY tool and get good results first up!
Good Job,
John B


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## werowance (Sep 8, 2020)

I had high hopes of making a head this long weekend however it didn't happen.  as I was going to lay out all the cutters and drills I would need I discovered I do not have the correct size reamer for the valve holes nor the correct size counterbore for the head bolts.  so today I ordered both and hopefully will have for next weekend.   

but what I did do was take a diamond file and a diamond hone and worked the teeth a little on the homemade woodruff cutters.  this significantly helped them.  the grooves in the bottom of the cut went away and is now throwing chips instead of an aluminum / cutting oil slurry.  I still have slight chatter marks in the bottom but that was also reduced.


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## Ken I (Sep 8, 2020)

Drag links and similar suspension parts are usually high tensile but dead soft and malleable - if you crash (been there done that) you can typically pretzel them without snapping. 
So stuff like EN8 or EN30B etc. - it hardens but doesn't hold an edge well - but for limited use - go for it.
Regards, Ken


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## werowance (Sep 16, 2020)

i received the counterbore and once i have the reamer in hand i can start on the head.  question on the counterbore.  i have to purchase or make the pilot for the tip of the counter bore however my question is if i am using this in the mill,  drill my hole then change from drill to counterbore i shouldnt need the pilot tip right?  the pilot is more for drill press or something thats not firmly clamped / not already dead center of the hole its boring right?  or is there a deflection issue i need to be worried about?   not that it would be hard to make the pilot but i just dont see the need for it, but i have only used counter bores one other time and i did use the pilot on that one in the drill press.


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## Ken I (Sep 16, 2020)

I normally don't bother with counterbores - I have a set of flat ground drill bits - but they don't start well against a flat surface - so I always pre-drill the counterbore with a normal drill point before using the flat bottomed drill.
A counterbore bit without a pilot will also have a tendency to jink around as you start the cut - leaving visible reminders beyond the finished hole.
Regards,  Ken


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## werowance (Sep 16, 2020)

ok, so if I start the counterbore hole with a regular drill of the same size that would eliminate the "jink" around or deflection as I was wording it - I like your term better though.   I have also used hand ground flat bottom drills before with the same results you give but figured the counter bore was a little stronger and also 4 flute instead of 2 flute like a drill would be.   if the pre drill trick will work then that's the route ill go with otherwise if you don't think a pre drill will suffice for the counterbore then ill just start making a pilot tip tonight.


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## Ken I (Sep 16, 2020)

Werowance, I typically drill so that the 118° drill point just breaks the edge of the predrilled clearance hole (at depth) - in other words as deep as possible - but it doesn't really matter - I just want to give the flat bottomed drill as much support as possible and as little work to do as possible.
Drill the pilot hole - bring the  normal point counterbore sized drill down until it breaks the edge - feed to the depth you want your counterbore - follow with the flat bottom drill until the 118° point land vanishes (while working to depth if you want to be precise).

The first time I did this was as an apprentice (on a pretty big hole) - my journeyman told me to drill all the clearance holes and then follow with the counterbore sized drill - then grind the drill flat bottom - then counterbore all the holes to depth and then resharpen the drill - I thought he was playing one of those "long weight" type pranks and checked with the foreman first - who unceremoniously told me to get on with it.

I've pretty much done it that way ever since - but I keep a set of flat bottom drills (in the regular sizes) rather than resharpening them all the time.

A multiflute counterbore with pilot is obviously better.

Regards - Ken


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## werowance (Sep 21, 2020)

made the counterbore pilot and got started on head.  so far so good.


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## werowance (Oct 2, 2020)

got a little further.  not overly happy with the cooling fins, still some clean up to do and drill the hole in the bottom for spark to reach cylinder,  but it'll do i guess....

one thing im posting just incase it could help anyone.  i needed a way stop or bump stop to controll how far in i cut each fin from outer edge to center but i didnt have one.  so i took a piece of plate aluminum and a c clamp and clamped it to my slide and then in the tail stock chuck i used my led edge finder.  everytime i got close i slowly advanced until it touched and the lights lit up.  so that was my "stop"  at least that trick worked out good.  dont guess you could do that with a conventional seperate mill / lathe setup but on the combo mill/lathe that was good to have.


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## ironman (Oct 2, 2020)

Great work on the head.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 2, 2020)

Looking very good. I was wondering what had happened to you.---Brian


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## werowance (Oct 3, 2020)

i have to get the push rods valve and such done before i can align the head on the cylider and drill the holes.  i have already messed up one set of rocker arms.  i really wish the plans would just give a radius or something on the valve striking tips of the arms but they dont.  so im asking for guidence.  i dont like guessing and the plans nor writtten instructions give sizes or guesses on this little tip - the curved tip that strikes the valve.  or am i missing something?


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## Sprocket (Oct 3, 2020)

If the overall thickness of the piece is .140", the radius of the curve at the end would be .070". It isn't clear, but it probably isn't critical either.
If you thin that end to .125", .156" back from the end, and file the remaining protrusion to round, I'd bet you would have a radius of .070". Don't know how you would measure that, but maybe turn a piece to  .140" and compare. Or, if you know the math, calculate the radius when a chord of .156" is .015" from the arc
segment. (.140" - .125" =.015") I don't know if I ever knew how to do that.....
Doug


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 3, 2020)

As the drawing shows---the underside of the radius on the tip is directly in line with the horizontal centerline of the pivot.


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## werowance (Oct 5, 2020)

Thanks Sprocket and Brian.  ill give it a shot


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## werowance (Oct 5, 2020)

last night i only had a little bit of time to have fun.  so i turned the pin that the rockers ride on.  its a piece of 1/8 inch drill rod center drilled to a clearance fit for a piece of 2-56 all thread.  

i had remembered Brian talking about drill rod usually being a bit undersized so i undersized reamed the hole in the brass post so it wouldnt be wobbly.  and sure enough it was a little tight but nothing i couldnt push in with my finger so i was happy about that.

the drill rod just slide through the center hole in the pin and is held in place with a 2-56 nut on both sides.  its held in the post with a set screw in the top - which is not in place yet.  ill trim off the excess all thread once i have rockers in place and decide whether or not to use a washer between them and the nuts.  plans dont call for one but im thinking it would be better than letting them ride against the nuts.

hope to give the rockers another shot this week.  the last set has already been scrapped.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 5, 2020)

You got it backwards.--Drill rod is generally dead nuts on size. Cold rolled rod is always .0005 to .001" undersize. That is why you can't fit a 1/2" drill rod into a 1/2' bearing without sanding the o.d. a bit first.


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## werowance (Oct 5, 2020)

well then my undersize reamer must be a tad bit larger than advertised then.  but happily its a tight but not over tight fit.  but thank you for telling me the difference . I had thought it was just the opposite.


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## werowance (Oct 8, 2020)

the motor on my lathe is making a really loud jack hammering noise.  at first I thought it was the head stock making it but I kept listening and moving around and decided it was coming from the motor.  I put my hand on it and it and it changed the pitch a lot so that confirmed it is the motor.  a couple of years ago the plastic cooling fan and slipped on the shaft and started rubbing the metal cover,  I fixed that back then and checked to make sure this was not what was happening again.  its not.  under normal operation when you turn it off it makes sort of a ratcheting sound as it stops.  this ratcheting noise is what I am hearing while running but its extremely loud now.  I'm probably going to pull the motor and check it out but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on it?  its a Bolton tools at750 but its the same thing as a smithy midas 1220ltd  which is who I buy my parts from instead of Bolton - smithy is really easy to work with and nice people on the phone.

but the noise is not like the fan rubbing noise was.  its more of the motor shut down noise just amplified and doing it while running.  ill try to get a recording of it but in the mean time any suggestions are appreciated.


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## Cogsy (Oct 8, 2020)

At a guess I'd say it was a bearing. Hopefully it is as they're not difficult to replace and reasonably cheap (buy a good quality replacement though, not a cheap no-name brand, NSK is the best in the world, SKF is also very good).


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## werowance (Oct 9, 2020)

well, i am very happy to report that after contacting smithy, even though my lathe iis actualy a bolton tools lathe of the same casting.  i have learned that all my parts and anything else come from smithy now.... but back to it, they quoted the motor - which i had given explanation of why i was quoting it he replied back with a quote and then a second email with a photo and probabiliy of what was going on, which was the pully being loose.  which it was and that solved the problem.   long story short smithy could have used this to sell me an expensive part but chose to recomend i check this before i did.  they had no reason to support my lathe but did so i will say that i really appreciate smithy for this and once i am back to a point i can email them i am going to order some parts that i caused the failure on but just havent fixed yet.

now on to build,  i have started back trying to make rockers (thanks all for the tip help)  i am past the milling ponit which caused the last failure where the mill dug in and took off like a climb cut.   so - so far so good


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 9, 2020)

Glad you got it sorted. A loose pulley can make some very strange noises. A loose flywheel on a small i.c. engine can do that too.---Brian


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## werowance (Oct 16, 2020)

Rockers pretty much done.  i dont have any 2-56 shcs for the push rods to engage in so i think ill just make up something similar and thread them 2-56.  one question i have is that in the drawings it says as an option in can drill "HD #40" so that i dont have to make a taper on my push rods.  what its saying is to enlarge the socket of the cap screw where the push rod rides in to a #40 drill.  but what i dont get is what does "HD" mean?  Half Deep? heavy duty etc?   and im going to look on line to see if i can find dimensions of a 2-56 shcs so i can make something to the same size with the exception of a hex socket ill just drill that #40 to what ever depth im supposed to .


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## Misterg (Oct 16, 2020)

werowance said:


> what i dont get is what does "HD" mean? Half Deep? heavy duty etc?



In that context, I would take it to be a contraction of 'head'  (as in SKT HD for 'Socket Head')


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## werowance (Oct 16, 2020)

well yes of course.  that makes perfect sense.   why I didn't think of that I don't know but yes that I believe would be right.  thank you very much.


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## werowance (Oct 19, 2020)

another question,  plans say to use "ducco" cement to glue the head on so that you can mark your holes for the head bolts.  goes on to say apply some heat to set the cement.   I have never used ducco cement but I do see that I can order it.  can ducco cement be easily removed?  or is it more of a permanent bond that is fuel resistant?  id sort of like to be able to remove it once I mark my drill holes.  ill use red locktite if ducco isn't removable because I can break that loose fairly easily with a pencil butain torch and then the residue usually just flakes off with my fingernail after that


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## CFLBob (Oct 19, 2020)

I used to use that building fishing rods and for lots of things.  I went and looked up a tech data sheet and it said to use acetone on cured cement to remove it, if on metal.


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## werowance (Oct 21, 2020)

so on my homemade shcs the threaded portion had warped when I threaded them so last night I was working on straightening them a bit and as I was looking through my box for a piece of scrap brass I could use to assist with that straightening I found that I had a full bag of ss - shcs in 2-56 never opened.  covered in dust so I don't know how long ive had them.  so I pitched my homemade ones and drilled the heads of these.  much better results.  

next off to the push rods.  tried (for just a few mins) to turn a piece of .140 drill rod down to a size that would fit the hole and failed so that's where I stopped last night and decided I would see if I could just order some drill rod already the appropriate size and just round over the ends.   not sure if that's going to be possible.  I don't see in the plans where it gives the major dia of the rod,  but it says to drill the shcs to a #40 drill so I'm assuming that means the major dia of the rod should be .098?  havnt looked yet but I bet I don't find .098 drill rod.


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## werowance (Oct 21, 2020)

Looks like .098 music wire is available and .094 round rod is available.  what do you all think?  what would you use if you were building?  and is .098 the right choice of size?


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## olympic (Oct 22, 2020)

Bicycle spokes make good push rods; ask anyone who's built a Holt 75 engine.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 22, 2020)

.094" diameter round rod works just fine. It can be mild steel. This engine will never log enough hours to begin to wear mild steel push-rods.


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## werowance (Oct 22, 2020)

thanks on both replies.  I think I have some old bycycles in the barn at my moms home.  ill have to take a look this weekend and see If they are still there or not.  if not .094 it will be.


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## Ken I (Oct 22, 2020)

Go to any "bike nut" shop that services bikes - they will give you handfuls of old spokes.

When they re-spoke a wheel for one broken spoke, they replace them all.

Also Slotcar racers use 3/32" drill-blank rear axles - if you have a Slotcar club in your vicinity you can probably scrounge up "bent" axles - I've got lots - you can barely discern the bend (because at 20000rpm, 0.001" TIR is way too much).

Or just buy from a Slotcar parts supplier - they're pretty cheap.

Regards, Ken


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## werowance (Oct 26, 2020)

found one of my old bikes in the bottom of the barn rusting away.  every spoke I cut off warped once the tension was removed.  easy enough to straighten though.  drilled through a small piece of brass and egg shaped it and lock tighted it on the end of each spoke because the tappets are drilled .125 this keeps them centered.  I thought I took a photo of the engine assembled with the push rods but evidently I didn't.  also glued the head on with locktight and then transfer punched for the head bolts.  a little bit of heat and the head came right off and locktight just flaked away with my finger nail. all went well with what little I got to do this weekend.


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## werowance (Oct 27, 2020)

some pictures partially assembled.  no bolts in the head right now so its a little crooked but shows the push rods pretty decent.  started on the valve guides last night.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 27, 2020)

That looks really good!!!---Brian


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## olympic (Oct 27, 2020)

Good lookin' push rods, I say!


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## CFLBob (Oct 27, 2020)

Looks really good.  

I'll have to remember that idea of bike spokes.  I'm sure I've got a couple around here left over from building a wheel at some time.


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## werowance (Oct 27, 2020)

i know i have already discussed and asked about this some but some time has passed and i have read and watched alot of others do this so now i think i didnt have it correct.  so on setting the degrees between the cam lobes,  here is my plan.  probably sounds like i said it earlier but earlier i wasnt going to do it the way i am thinking now.

anyway,  locktight one cam lobe let it cure and set it so that it is pushing the tappet as high as it can.  ill call that top dead center for that tappet.  with a degree wheel attached to the end of my cam shaft (not crank as i had envisioned) and with a bent wire attached somewhere on the body of the engine as a pointer on the degree wheel - pointing at 0 then rotate the degree wheel to 101 degrees as per the stationary bent wire pointer on the rotated degree wheel i then set the second cam at top dead center of the tappet and lock tight it in place - maybe using some tape or something to hold the degree wheel which will be attached by screw to the end of the cam in place so it doesnt rotate while rotating the cam lobe .  hopefully i can do this quick enough before the locktite starts curing.


*


*


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## werowance (Oct 29, 2020)

valve guides done and pressed in place.


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## Art K (Oct 31, 2020)

Werowance,
I must admit with work and other stuff going on I am only now getting caught up with your build. I have to say I am glad I did my cam as a one piece unit and not assemble it. In post 392 you have the print showing where the cam is to be located. My suggestion would be if you loctite the first lobe then make sure the other is 101-102 degrees apart. Then you should have no trouble running it.
Art


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## werowance (Nov 2, 2020)

Thanks  Art


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## werowance (Nov 2, 2020)

got started on the valves


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## werowance (Nov 4, 2020)

valve seat cutter tool and valve seats done.


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## werowance (Nov 5, 2020)

a little further


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## werowance (Nov 5, 2020)

now for a question.  pans say i can use a Eclip or cross pin the valves.  i have some experience on crosspinning a valve so thats the route i plan to take.  
the question - i have a lot of 1/16 .0625 drill rod that i use for pinning other things.  the valve stems are about .095 so do you think .0625 is a bit to large to use?  any recomendation on a drill size hole if that is to big?  what i can do is drill with whatever is recomended and  then cut the drill shaft to use as the pin material. which i have done before as well.


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## CFLBob (Nov 5, 2020)

It does seem big to me at just about 2/3 of the diameter.  

FWIW on my Webster with its .094 pins, I used .040 pins.  That's 18 gauge wire, which is convenient.  I had some lying on the bench from something I had fixed so I have little copper pins.  If you don't have any, you could probably get a few inches or a foot at Home Depot or some place like that.   I bet 20 ga., which is .032, would work.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 5, 2020)

I use a 0.039" drill for the hole, which is 1 millimeter, and use a piece of 1 mm drill rod to fit in the hole. A 1/16" hole thru a 3/32" valve stem is not a good idea.---Brian


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## Sprocket (Nov 5, 2020)

Agree with Brian.. 1/16" is too big. I've used .040" safety wire in 1/8" valve stems and it looks as though it fits there. But hey, try it on a scrap and see what you think.
Doug


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## werowance (Nov 6, 2020)

thanks all for the suggestions.  found several partial packs of wire size drills from when I used to etch and design a lot of my own circuit boards.  have a bunch of 65, 66 and 67 drills some dull which would be nice to use as the actual cross pin and the good one to drill the hole with.  but I'm going to make a few test drills and just see what looks right much like sprocket ssaid


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## werowance (Nov 9, 2020)

just 1 keeper left to go.  its in the chuck about half way done....


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## werowance (Nov 9, 2020)

and the second one is done.  asside from a couple set screws the head is done and time to move on to the carb


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## werowance (Nov 9, 2020)

now about the carb,   im not a big fan of its design,  alot of sliding fit parts not tight and i feel vibration will be a constant issue with keeping it adjusted, or even keeping it attached.  i was wondering if anyone had some good suggestions on another type of carb?  the bore of the carb is .187 and i hav looked at chuck fellows which is much larger,  so is the store bought carb i used on the webster.


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## werowance (Nov 10, 2020)

i found a version of Chuck Fellows carb with a .15625 bore.  thats closer than some of the versions i have seen which were much larger or smaller.   do you think .15625  is close enough to .187 to run the engine ok?  i like the design much better than the upshur one


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## werowance (Nov 10, 2020)

and no sooner did i post that i found Chucks original post that said it works well for engines 3/4 to 1 inch bore.  which the upshure is 3/4.  so i guess question answered - but will gladly accept any advice anyone has as well.


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## olympic (Nov 10, 2020)

Looks good to me


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## awake (Nov 11, 2020)

FWIW, I too found two different versions of Chuck's carb ... and I wound up splitting the difference and using a throat opening of .140. It has been working well on my Webster, with a .875" diameter cylinder.


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## Art K (Nov 12, 2020)

What I have found on my Upshur after using 2 Perry carbs and the single jet carb in the drawings. The stock carb was fine but. If you ran it at a higher rpm you had to open up the jet, then close it to idle. A .198 Perry was to big, yes it ran but, if you opened the throttle to fast it would die. Same if you opened to far. Perry's .178 carb ran the best. But then you probably aren't going to try for 7000rpm either so the stock carb may work just fine.
Art


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## werowance (Nov 17, 2020)

so i havnt given any updates lately and unfortunatly i dont have pictures to show any progress.  

but here is where im at.  

1. realized i needed to know the inside dia of the intake tube to make the carb to match
2. found a roll of aluminized steel brake line that was the perfect size hanging on the wall from fixing my old farm use truck
3. found out that this stuff doesnt bend easily, doesnt solder at all guessing from the aluminum content idk.  but the very best tightest bend i got was from packing sand in it and sealing off with hot glue.  learned that one fromm utube.  but it made a good bend without caving in.  i was using a brake line bending tool as well. 
4. ended up using the best brake line bend to mae an exhaust header.  ill post a pic before i commit that as a permanent change -  aka lock tight it in place. for recomendations but i felt it look sort of "right" for the engine but not convinced
5. since the brake line wouldnt work and since i didnt have brass tube or copper tubein the right size i had to make it, then solder the end cap on as well as both tubes together to make a 90deg pipe.   sounds simple but took 3 tries and spilled acid on the shop concrete floor.  not much maybe a 1/4 of a small chipped beef jar from armour worth but i used a box of backing sodda to neutralize and rinsed thouroghly.  it was just muratic acid so no a major deal. cleaned the floor pretty good even. - use the muratic for just a min or 2 to clean flux as per manufacturer sheets. not supposed to use for a long time
6.  all pipes and pluming are done with exception to some length trimming to be done once carb is done.  
7. carb body had a pretty good start on it.  tried doing it on the mill part of my combi machine with a boring head but that didnt work,  switched to 4jaw and spent a long time getting that hole centered and then cut the intake neck as well at cut the taper on the intake cause i already had the dbit to do it


and last but not least.  im using awakes in betweeen version of chuck fellows carb. pretty much the same as both of his version but sized in the middle. so awake- thank you for sharring

hope to have more pics and less words soon


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## werowance (Nov 17, 2020)

oh and should add 8 or actually the first thing of it all i did  was square up a small piece of brass for the carb body.  which took some time,  my band saw blade has develiped a crack in it so had to go slow and easy on the scrap part.  in the end it all worked and all fingers and toes and such are still good.  then milled it square.


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## scottyp (Nov 18, 2020)

I reviewed your Webster thread as before I built my Webby and since I am starting an Uphsur Vert I thought I should check in here.  Yours is looking good and you are getting close.


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## werowance (Nov 20, 2020)

some pics of he progress,  do you think the exhast pipe looke wrong?


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## CFLBob (Nov 20, 2020)

I think the upswept exhaust pipe looks pretty cool!


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## stanstocker (Nov 21, 2020)

I'd say the upswept exhaust looks "unexpected" but sort of cool.  Heck, it's your engine, if it makes you happy and works well that's all that matters.  It isn't as though this is a museum model seeking perfect accuracy to some original.  If folks can put tuned chromes pipes and flappers on a wheelhorse mower for yucks you can do whatever you please   After living with it for a while you can change it if you decide it's not right, or that you're glad you added your own little touch and leave it alone.


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## olympic (Nov 21, 2020)

We'll get some purple French tail lights and thirty inch fins, oh yeah!


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## werowance (Nov 21, 2020)

well on the exhaust pipe,  its leftover from trying to get a tight 90 deg bend for the carb,  but the plans call for  a straight out of the head pipe.  rememering back to a move i saw when i was young,  cheech and chong "twice pipes" lol

well im thinking the leftover attempt of the carb up pip from brake line doesnt look right,   but i dont like the straight unbent pipe of the plans.  maybe some flared chrome tips  lol.  or a big black smoke stack out of the truck  bed....   some of you may not get that joke as i dont know how far that fad had spread out into the world....  aka putting a stove pipe in the bed of you diesel truck.


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## werowance (Nov 21, 2020)

awake said:


> FWIW, I too found two different versions of Chuck's carb ... and I wound up splitting the difference and using a throat opening of .140. It has been working well on my Webster, with a .875" diameter cylinder.
> 
> View attachment 120762



i should say that if you have a stove pipe  in your truck bed,  no problem with except they rust out really quick.


next i have a few questions.  Awake, on your drawings as well as Mr. Fellows plans, on the jet, the holes appear to be flat bottom. im hopeing not.  i realize most plans draw it like that but dont really mean flat bottom.  

NEXT AND A ROOKIE QUESTION - SORRY,  but when measuring a blind drill hole that is not flat bottom.  do you measure from the sharp point of the bit or from when the flutes start?  assuming from the tip?

and then on the needle.  we have a large assortment of darning needles here at werowance mansion estates (just kidding) but none of them give a # like a drill would.  closes i have is .048 untill you hit the thread hole where it spreads to what i can best tell is between .050 and .051.  

my question is since i cant seem to find a pack of darning needles labled as a number #18.  where would i need to measure the .050 dia at?  mid shaft?


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## Sprocket (Nov 21, 2020)

Mid shaft sounds right. There is a section of the needle where the sides are parallel that is going to be soldered into the cap. The eye gets cut off, and the tapered tip is used for adjusting fuel flow, so the midsection is all you can really measure.
Also, looking at A.Wakes plans, are there really any flat bottom holes? It looks like there are always through holes with a smaller drill, which pretty much takes away the tip, so you could measure from the lip, or edge of the flute because the pointy part is going to be drilled away. Maybe I'm not looking at the same places you are.
Doug


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## werowance (Nov 22, 2020)

well, im looking at the jet tube,  .040 is the thru hole,  but then followed by .052 on one side and then .063 on the other side.  which both appear to be depicted with flat bottom holes.  and since its such a small part i wanted to make sure that the .052 and the .063 were not flat bottom as well as where on the drill did awake  start at. hoping not flat bottom and that he measured from the point of the drill which will make life much easier


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## Sprocket (Nov 22, 2020)

That's what I was looking at too. Truly, they are not flat bottom but what remains of your drill point angle for a distance of half the difference in drill diameters. It is too small to show up in a drawing. It's good to try to hit the dimensions exactly, but the difference between the point and the lip of a .063" drill is only .019"
for a 118 degree point. Less for a 135 degree point. The important thing here is that you don't drill through, and the plans show .100" of .040" hole. The .063" side is gas inlet, and probably not too critical. the .052" side needs to be past the spray bar hole a little, but again, the difference between .052" and ,040" doesn't show up as an angled end to the hole, but it is, slight as that may be. But what the plans show as a measuring point is the intersection of the drill lip (flute) with the side wall, so if you really want to hit the measurement, start when the lip hits the surface. Hope that makes sense.
Doug


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## werowance (Nov 23, 2020)

sprocket,  "when the lip hits the surface" is probably the best description I have heard.  I appreciate that very much.


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## awake (Nov 23, 2020)

Oops, sorry - I missed the questions until now. No, the only flat bottom is the one I have been sitting on for too long!  I blame the person who drew up the CAD plans ... oh, wait, that was me.

In general, I start measuring from where the drill tip ends and the full body diameter begins. But let me hasten to say that 1) we're only talking a few thousands difference - there's not much tip length on a .051" or .040" drill bit; not much even on a .0625" - and 2) there is some wiggle room in the design, especially at the bottom. The .0625 hole in the bottom of the jet is really there just to keep from having to drill the whole length at .040". I confess that the decision on how long the .040" section should be was based on highly sophisticated TLAR engineering - That Looks About Right! Certainly when I made it, I did not attempt to be overly precise with measuring the depth of the holes - I expect I was within .010" to .016" of the designed depth, but that's as much as I can promise when drilling on the lathe.

I also can't promise that the upper section of the jet that I made matches the design as drawn; basically, I bought a pack of needles off of Amazon and picked the one that seemed closest to what I needed, then drilled accordingly.

on edit: Sprocket said it perfectly!


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## werowance (Nov 24, 2020)

i went to hobby lobby yesterday and found some darning needles - an assortent pack that  had a #18 as its highest number in the pack.  i measured each needle in mid shaft moving up and down a bit to make sure i was on the straight section and not on taper or swelled eye end of the needle.  the 2 closest needles were .048 and .055 mid shaft and the largest was .06something which was way to big.   so with .048 and .055 as my choices which would be the best to use? or should i just pitch those and try to find one closer to the right size?


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## awake (Nov 24, 2020)

As best I recall, the needle I used was in the range you are talking about ... but I don't remember which. I don't know if it would matter between those two sizes - ?? Just drill the hole the needle goes in accordingly to give an easy sliding fit. Or at least, that was the assumption I made. But keep in mind that I have built a grand total of ONE carburetor. It worked ... but was that sheer luck, or clever TLAR engineering??? I need to move on with my second engine so that I can double my experience.


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## werowance (Nov 24, 2020)

Thanks Awake,  one more question,  do you remember what your base needle setting was when starting your webster on this carb?  might make starting mine a bit easier having a "rough" sarting setting.


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## werowance (Nov 24, 2020)

well, all i can say for tonights work is grrrrrr.
im on jet tube number 6 now.  first one was a simple mistake,  started from the wrong end before i thought about it but the rest is i keep botching the 8-32 threads on the tube.  it just wipes them out like i was just cutting it round with a lathe and not using a die.   ive had this before and its usually because im going to big with the stock, not putting enough preasure on the die or not using cutting fluid.  but i just cant seem to get it tonight so i quit for tonight and went inside to eat the japanese yakanikanu (beef) my wife brought home for me for supper and now im stuffed and searching for proper outside dia of 8-32 when cutting with a die.  may just go measure an 8-32 bolt tomorrow idk..  but tonight its time to quit and pout about it lol. 

and for anyone reading this, the carb jet tube should start on the end that the needle sticks in so that all the drills and threads on that side are exact, the opposite side of the jet tube isnt as important as its just the fuel inlet side.   ( first failure but only a .250 loss in stock is all)


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## Sprocket (Nov 24, 2020)

Make sure you are starting from the right side of the die. 
You may wonder how I know....
Also, make the part 1/8 or so long and file a little taper on it to get started, then trim that later if you need to.


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## werowance (Nov 24, 2020)

well,  i was always told to start the die on the sharp side however i have always had better luck starting the die on the tapered end of the die threads.  that said i tried both.  on the 1/8 or so longer,  yep did that and usually take a bastard file wile lathe running to taper / angle the tip for easy starting but tonight i think im just beat and needed to walk away.   that said am i right on the starting a die on the sharp side instead of the tapered side?  even though i always have better luck the opposite way?


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## Sprocket (Nov 24, 2020)

They often say “start from this side “ on the die and that’s the tapered side to make starting easier. Then you can turn it around to get more complete threads further up the part. You could also turn a short section to the minor diameter ( tap drill size) and that can ease starting too.


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## werowance (Nov 25, 2020)

Thanks Sprocket,  thats how i normally do it.  start with the tapered end of the die,   run it up,  when im as close to the end as i can get then i back it off turn it arround and run up the non tapered end of the die which normally gives me better threads as well as threads all the way to the end with full threads that way.

makes me feel better that my technique is right.  its got to be the outside dia i am starting with plus a build up of frustration.  i hope i get a chance to try again tonight.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 25, 2020)

I do it the same way--start the die on the tapered side, and if I'm threading up to a shoulder then I turn the die around and use the untapered side to get in tight to the shoulder. If the treaded part is screwing into something that the shoulder must bear against, then I will go in with a 1/16" wide parting off tool and undercut the thread a little bit. If you are having trouble getting the die to start, then turn a small 60 degree included angle on the end of the part to be threaded.---Brian


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## awake (Nov 25, 2020)

werowance said:


> Thanks Awake,  one more question,  do you remember what your base needle setting was when starting your webster on this carb?  might make starting mine a bit easier having a "rough" sarting setting.



For a cold start, I close it all the way, then open it up about a quarter turn - maybe a bit less. I'm sure the specific shape of the needle used will have some influence on this setting. I open the throttle (air passage) half-way or more. Most of the time I can hand-start it, though sometimes it is recalcitrant and I have to resort to the drill starter. I usually run with a few degrees of advance on the timing.


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## awake (Nov 25, 2020)

Interesting on the use of a die - I almost never use a die to create a thread; instead I virtually always single-point it. Sometimes I may use a die to finish it off, especially if I need to get as close as possible to a shoulder. My practice may reflect the fact that the vast majority of the dies that I have on hand are the cheap carbon steel import specials that I bought at the very beginning ... or maybe the fact that I've never upgraded to better dies reflects the fact that I always single-point. Hmm, chicken or egg ...


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## Sprocket (Nov 25, 2020)

Actually, I always single point to start ,too. I finish with a die just to get it as close as I can. I didn't try single pointing with my old lathe because minimum speed was 150 RPM and I found that scary, but with the South Bend I have now, I can thread in back gear at 50 (?) rpm and it's very controllable. I don't know what Werowance is using, so didn't suggest it. It is definitely a skill worth learning.
 Doug


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## werowance (Nov 25, 2020)

well, single point threading  is something i suck at.  i almost always use a die.   but GOOD NEWS.  the problem was found.  the new die that i had never used in my kit was awefull.  inspection under a magnifying glass (my eyes are getting bad at 46 - ugh) shows horriible threads.  i pulled out a very old northern tool and equpment tap and die set i bought over a decade ago before i even had my first lathe.  they were rusty, hex dies but first attempt on a few test pieces gave nice deep threads.  ill try to upload some pics of the bad die and the cheap rusty one.  at any rate i still failled on now attempt 8.  but this failure was my fault as i was drilling the clearance hole for the needle.(already drlled the .040 hole) i drilled it to the correct depth but then just to check it i put the drill back in and said, hey this isnt the right depth.  then as i was drilling deeper i realized i was trying to do a "thru" drill like with the .040 drill.  thus i went to deep. in my defense there is a lot going on at my home today and a whole lot of poping in the garage door quietly then realizing i have equipment running and thus yelling my name which i just about jump thru the roof from the startle.... at any rate im happy its just a bad die which is going to the trash and im very(post edit) experienced now after multiple attempts in the cuts leading up to the die and can get to that point pretty darn quick now....


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## werowance (Nov 25, 2020)

first pic,  cheap working northern tool die that worked.  second pic,  my higher end kit that i had never used the die before until this brass jet tube with bad threads on it.  last pic is the jet tube threads


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## Sprocket (Nov 25, 2020)

Don't know if it matters, or would make it easier, but I usually drill the largest diameter hole first, then only have a little way to go with smaller drills. 
They are going to center on the point of he other drill anyway, and I don't like drilling any deeper than I have to with tiny drills.
Doug


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## werowance (Nov 25, 2020)

Sproket,  thank you for that   i have always done it oposite  start with the smallest drill and work my way up.   yes i agree i get "up tight" when drill a long hole with a .040 drill..  didnt know it was acceptable to do it oposite.  would probably reduce my drill breakage alot.


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## Richard Hed (Nov 26, 2020)

awake said:


> Interesting on the use of a die - I almost never use a die to create a thread; instead I virtually always single-point it. Sometimes I may use a die to finish it off, especially if I need to get as close as possible to a shoulder. My practice may reflect the fact that the vast majority of the dies that I have on hand are the cheap carbon steel import specials that I bought at the very beginning ... or maybe the fact that I've never upgraded to better dies reflects the fact that I always single-point. Hmm, chicken or egg ...


I learned a long time ago to use taps and dies when the threads are small and to use taps and dies also if I have quality ones for the larger threads.  Single point when one doesn't have a die or they are too expensive to buy.  In my opinion it is better to use the tool made for the job but if it is too expensive, find another way.


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## Ken I (Nov 26, 2020)

If I need to thread up to a shoulder, I'll normally "cheat" by tapping a hole and locktiting in a stud - gives you the benefit of being able to use a high tensile rolled thread stud (grub screw or cut from a cap screw or threaded rod).

As in this example of a clevis pin (M2 thread) which is much quicker and easier to make as parts :-






It's also a lot stronger than undercutting and uses an off the shelf nut rather than having to machine a hexagon.

Regards, Ken


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## werowance (Nov 27, 2020)

Well carburator is done.  not  much more drama after i found the bad die.  only issue was the solder from the needle did stick the the main needle part to the jet tube.  re heated that used my welding gloves and got it  back apart.  then cleaned all that up and sooted everything with accetaline soot and tried again.  success and all done.

moved on to the head where i blued it to see if the push rods would rub, they just barely did,  filed and sanded the cooling fin just a tad and thats all good.

next is a gas tank.  mocked up several pieces of round stock and it seems 1 inch to 1.25 is going to be  a good size for it.  unfortunately i dont have anything in that size in copper or brass so ill be going to the hardware store tomorrow. (i have solid stock brass but im not going to waste that)
\














the next pic shows it on the intake tube which is over length right now. i still have to shorten it






and this pic show where the push rod was rubbing.  it was just faint but i scribed a line across the top as a file to line then gave a little relief to that area,  filed, sannded and it looked better than it did before.


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## Sprocket (Nov 27, 2020)

I went to the hardware store looking for fuel tank parts, and by the time I'd found a couple of iron pipe end caps and a short nipple, I thought, "holy crap!  it's a pipe bomb! hope the checkout guy doesn't call the police." But really, a couple of copper end caps make a very tidy looking fuel tank, and easier than trying to put flat ends on a piece of tube.
Your carb looks good.
Doug


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## awake (Nov 28, 2020)

Beautiful work!


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## awake (Nov 28, 2020)

Sprocket said:


> Don't know if it matters, or would make it easier, but I usually drill the largest diameter hole first, then only have a little way to go with smaller drills.
> They are going to center on the point of he other drill anyway, and I don't like drilling any deeper than I have to with tiny drills.
> Doug



Yes, I should have mentioned this - the point of having the larger diameter (.0625") hole in the fuel feed side was precisely to avoid having to drill that whole length in .040". I drilled the .0625" first, then just had a short ways to go with the .040" drill.


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## werowance (Nov 28, 2020)

went and got a state inspection sticker on the vehicle this morning then stopped by the local non chain hardware store.  one of the last few in America left i would say.  got a 1.25 sinc or similar drain pipe.  chrome plated but brass core.  got a start on a fuel tank.   roughly 2.25 long and 1.27 dia  more like 1.26 after sanding  found a very thin piece of scrap that had just enugh meat to make one of the ends.  still scrounging for the other end scrap

kind of wanted to do this one different but i may change my mind after i keep looking around the scrap but what i was thinking of is that both the fill cap and the feed nipple feed out from the side cap.  on the filler neck maybe a 90 or 2 - 45 to make a 90. maybe even use copper tube and bend a 90?  make an external threaded bung to solder on that tube?   i dont know still thinking on it.  id really like to do  cap that was a direct 90 deg to the tank but a milled piece of solid stock maybe .376 with something like a 30 deg angel on it.  then drill a hole down a hole into the tank at right angles.   ill do a crude paint image further below what im talking about.  doubt i end up doing that.

so here is what i bought





What i cut out of it and cleaned up with a rough cap on one side






then kind of what i was thinking of how to do the filler cap into the side instead of into the tank body -a crude pant drawing.


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## werowance (Nov 28, 2020)

i also should say that i want to mount this one on a vertical rod to make it adjustable as i saw another member here do.  said i was going to use that one in a future project so i plan to do it n this one.  but point here is why i want everything on the edge instead of the middle.  the other members if i remember right had a split hole with a clamp screw to secure the tank and a hole and set screw to slide it up and down the tank (very crudely described.  the members  finished tank looked awesome)  but if i remember right the fill neck was center of tank thus the clap had to be off center.  figured a edge or at least offset filler neck and pickup / andor sump on the far left or right would do better for that clamp


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## werowance (Dec 4, 2020)

gas tank on a stick is done.  had originally planed to use a bored piece of aluminum plate with a split to make a clamped part for it as i saw another user do this year on this site (and said i was going to steal that idea) which is why i wanted a side fill neck and feed nipple.  but just before i started driling the aluminum plate i found  little square chunk of brass in the tool box and it was almost the right size to solder on to the side of the tank thus eliminating a whole lot of extra work making the aluminum clamp.  but still happy to have explored the side fill and side feed tank.

so the base plate is temp,  its just my swiss cheese test drill/thread scrap plate for now.  the fly wheel of this engine extends beyond the base plate of the engine so i will need a second base plate with a cutout or use a wood base with a cutout. i have a huge piece of scrap aluminum plate. i think it was part of the base of a large gas station sign or something  roughly 1 inch thick, about 19 inches x 19 inches square and 4 very large bolt holes in it.  spent a couple hours sawing a chunk out of it and started squaring it up in the mill.  at any rate just know that the tank base plate is just for testing and the rod on the tank is still a bit long at this point.

not a beutiful job but hopefully ill be able to polish it up with the dremil and hand sanding/polishing


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## werowance (Dec 4, 2020)

all that said.  once that extra base plate is done then ill be ready to do the final fits and lock tight and silicone the crank case plates. all sorts of adjusting and such then try to start it.  im thinking the machining is done after the extra base plate.  if not it wont be anything major unless i find something wrong.


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## ironman (Dec 5, 2020)

Super nice gas tank.


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## werowance (Dec 6, 2020)

got the base squared up and cut out for the fly wheel.  spent the rest of the day rough sanding it to get the pits and scrapes etc out of it.  needs a progressive rough to smoote sand from here but good enough for now.  guess its time to start fit clean and finish?   

a question on finish, it appears Mr. Upshur painted the cylinder/plate in a gloss back.  i know mine needs pain cause its  staring to just surface rust between the fins.  what paint would you use on a hot cylinder?  regular high temp engine paint or a higher temp?

ill drill for the gas tank rod once everything is fitted up a bit more.  will hopefully sand and polish it a bit more as well.

if you notice the off set drill holes for the engine,  that threw me at first to when measuring where to put them.  i realized the cylinder/flywheel is not center of the base.  its offset a bit to allow for the cam and tappets so thats why the base holes arent center to the cutout for the flywhell


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 6, 2020)

I don't really have a problem with rust here, so it's a bit hard to answer your question. Painting a cylinder will interfere with it's ability to radiate heat away, but I would try stovepipe enamel. Two choices, black or silver. Normal engine paint will not withstand the heat from an air cooled cylinder.


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## werowance (Dec 7, 2020)

finishing up is going ok so far.   the locktight doing as expected,  about 5 mins to seize up on steel to steel (the first cam lobe)  and about 2 mins for brass to steel (the spacers or for tonight the first spacer) will test run clocking the 2nd cam lobe a bit hopefully tomorrow and see if any issues come up with a fake locktighting / clocking session before i put the green stuff on it.

other than that, im eye balling a ultrasonic jewelry cleaner similar to what i have seen a few users on this site use but thought i would ask,   will the ultrasonic cleaners damage the green locktight after its cured? (dont know about the ultrasonic or chems damaging the locktight) anyway looking at one on amazon.com and thought id ask.

then on a very un related note.  i need to change oil on my old farmall super a (c113 engine) and originally the oil plug had a copper crush washer/felt in a groove sealing washer.  which has pretty much decentigrated since 1946.  i have used oring and then ruberized gasket material as possible replacement.  any sources to get the copper/felt or maybe leather (not sure) washers for an oil plug? ill fire up another thread in the tools or misc forrum if we need to.  just looking for a vendor or website is all.  and of course i can ask on the farmall forrum on another site but i have learned that many on this site know where to get these older types of gasket washers.  many even know how to make them but im just wanting to buy a few for the toolbox  and the tractor


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## gartof (Dec 7, 2020)

I put copper gasket in Amazon search and got many hits


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## werowance (Dec 8, 2020)

thanks Gartof,  but the hits i got were not what i was looking for,  but only spent about 30 mins looking.  was hoping someone had already been through it.   before spring i will likely travel for work about 200 miles north to one of our locations and there happens to be a dealer there.  but ill need to call ahead so they order the right part number for my tractor.  unfortunatly the local international/farmall dealer shut down and they are the next closest one.  but directly across the street.


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## werowance (Dec 8, 2020)

i hope i got the cam lobes clocked properly.  printed off and resized a degree wheel to do it.  last night i set the first lobe and then tonight i set the second and its curing now.  in once sense the cold is working to my benifit.

the lock tight doesnt cure nearly as quick when its cold so i have more time to work with it.   once it set enough to move it i brought it back in the house to cure at a better temp.

pic of the degree wheel setup - the copper wire is my pointer


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## werowance (Dec 10, 2020)

i need some help please.  in the assembly instructions below,   im not sure i understand it.  if i represent each cam lobe with a \ or a / depending on the lobe which if i show it like this " \ /" would mean both cams pointing upward in an even fashion.  and if i say "/ \" would be both cams pointing down in an even fashion. and this "  |  " would be the piston rod and piston at top dead center.  then in the instructions below is it saying i should orient the cam shaft in a position like this  "   \ | / "  ?
it also says to un mesh the gears and rotate until you can get what i assume is this " \ | / " but the crankshaft gear is 30 tooth and if i do my math correct (Brian R showed me this on my webster build) that you take 360 divide it by the number of teeth 30 and you get 12 degrees per tooth that you move it.  well thats alot to just try to time it by the gear teeth.  i havnt locked the cam gear yet so i hopefully can get it exact but its brass to steel which the locktight will sieze in just a couple of mins.  then it says to favor the rear follower rising early if you cant get it exact - well wouldnt that mean the cam on the oposite end of the fly wheel side? im thinking yes but just double checking






and a picture to show what i mean by \ | /  below
by the written instructions,  would this how i need the cam shaft to be set with the piston tdc?


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 10, 2020)

Rotate the engine in whichever direction you want it to turn with the piston on it's upward stroke and stop it at about 20 degrees before top dead center. Loosen off the set screw on the intake cam and turn it in the proper direction until all the slack is taken out of the valve train and it is ready to start lifting the valve if it goes any farther. Lock that cam in position. Rotate the crankshaft in it's normal direction until about 25 degrees below bottom dead center. Loosen the set screw in the exhaust cam and rotate it to the point where it is ready to lift the valve and lock it there. that should be all there is to it.


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## werowance (Dec 10, 2020)

unfortunately the cams are already locked in 1 solid piece with locktight as per plans / instructions,  which I guess Is why he is saying the cam timing is done like he's describing.

so I cant loosen the cam lobes,  they are solid 101deg appart.  only thing at this point that is not tight is the gear on the cam.  that's last freely rotating part.


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## werowance (Dec 17, 2020)

still slowly making progress.   had to re-do the cam as one of the lobes did not setup on the lock tight.  must have had oil or somthing still on the shaft.  but i cleaned everything and this time the lobes arent moving.  locktighted in the carb to the intake tube,  dissasembled and cleaned the head and cylinder,  replaced the springs with lighter weight ones as i was not happy with the first ones i had, painted the clyinder,  cut a bunch of screws to length dropped many of them in the floor when sanding the end clean after cutting thus redoing several screws.  also made the oil drain plug screw out of some brass hex.

still have to make 1 busing on the crank and remake 1 busing on the cam as it split on me.  after that i think its go time


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## scottyp (Dec 17, 2020)

Looks great!


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## CFLBob (Dec 17, 2020)

Looking good!  But when did that cylinder and the top plate turn black?  Is that engine paint?


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## werowance (Dec 18, 2020)

its vht header paint.  good to 2000 deg f I figure if the cylinder gets that hot it will melt the solder holding it to the base plate.  the 1215 steel almost like 12L14 rusts really easily.  the fins were picking up surface rust just from the air in the garage so It needed something to stop it.  the pictures in the plans of the engine show it black like I did mine.

Last night I got the bushings done from brass tube.  had to expand the tube by pressing a piece of steel rod through it in the hydraulic press.  kept it hot while slowing pressing it through.  that worked really well.  locktighted the counterweight/screws for them so they don't vibrate lose.  I hope to day to get the piston, rod and rings all installed and then points and timing after that.


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## werowance (Dec 18, 2020)




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## werowance (Dec 18, 2020)

Well I keep breaking piston rings.  I wonder if I anneal them in the oven for a bit they will be less brittle


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## Sprocket (Dec 18, 2020)

If you are heating them to red, then cooling in air, I'm not sure the oven would improve on that. If you are breaking them trying to put them on the piston,
it could be technique. Try pressing the side away from the split into groove (or against the piston) with your thumbs as you spread the split open just enough to clear the top of the piston. In theory, when you let it go, it should have the same opening as when you started, if not, you are spreading the opening too much.
Doug
(if you can find the George Trimble articles from Strictly I.C about making rings, he explains this very well. It also might give you a different size rod to open your ring, a ratio of the bore, which might make installing easier.)


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## CFLBob (Dec 18, 2020)

I also find that smearing the piston with SAE 30 oil helps.  I always wonder how I got the rings onto the piston, but I've gotten them on four times so far.  

Getting them off is another question.  Tried it twice, broke them both.


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## werowance (Dec 18, 2020)

Sprocket,  i appreciate i will see what i can find on George Trimbles articles.  but that said:

a few things,  i have some experience installing rings,  be it 454's, 350's or on the blue side 351 clevelands.  then briggs and stratton and techumseh.  and the more recently on the webster engine.  these rings i am making - which i have never made before are brittle.  i know all rings are somewhat brittle but not like this.  i just finished making a test ring using a somewhat different method.  not nearly as hot,  a medium to low red heat spread to the exact specs outlined in the instructions.  i then slowly let the heat come down.  this time on this ring i was using a plumbers soldering torch.  once i hit the red i kept it there about a min,  then slowy brought the torch off of it.  then even after that i went to the toaster oven and it had a soak in 400 deg F for 1 hour.

this ring was better,  but not like store bought better and it split to.   i question my cast iron

i am using perlitic grey cast iron.  im wondering if i might need to try some dura bar cast iron?  and what is ductile cast iron?  anything like described above?

edited ad on,  if i just compare to the store bought webster rings,  they would spread much easier without as much force needed to try and spread them and they also seemed more springy i guess is the best way to describe it.


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## aka9950202 (Dec 19, 2020)

When making my piston rings from the Mini break cylinders I made the rings,  used a pair of side cutters to split then. Put the rings on a small  rod using the split  ends to hold themselves on the rod. Heated until red hot. The rings simply fell off once they reached the correct temperature.  Then squared the ends, lapped to thickness. 
I used the "professor Cradock " method.


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## werowance (Dec 19, 2020)

Thanks AKA,   that was actually the first procedure i folllowed,  with the exception of using side cutters to split,  i split them by using 2 clamps and gave just a little tweak to split.  

now on the rod and heating,  they would not fall off.   in fact i could  heat the iron till it would start to melt and it wouldnt  fall off.


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## aka9950202 (Dec 19, 2020)

That is strange. I had the rod horizontal across the hearth (5 fire bricks to form a temporary hearth) which worked for me. I found the rings that were heated with Oxy/Mapp failed with the slightest touch when installing. I tried again with a large wide flame Propane torch which worked for me.

Cheers,

Andrew in Melbourne


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## werowance (Dec 20, 2020)

closer to success,  heated the rod first to red a little before were the ring was positioned,  let the heat draw up the rod and start coloring the ring to different colors,  blue staw etc. then brought to the dull red.  afterwards soaked the ring in 450 f for 1 hour then 400 1 hour then 375 1 hour.    this morning the ring was much better than all the rest but still no joy.  last night while all this heating was going on i started cutting some unknown piece of i guess farm equipment down.  the powder it leaves is much finer and also blacker than the continuos cast perlitic gray cast iron store bout rod i had.  cuts easily with a dull cracked bandsaw blade as well.  did a little 1/8 slice off the end and then broke it between to chanel locks and the grain appears finer as well.  so as i type this i have this test ring in the easy bake oven as well just as a trial.

im having trouble with the pics so next post will be  from my phone with just the pics of the scrap cast iron i am testing with


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## werowance (Dec 20, 2020)

Pics below


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## Sprocket (Dec 20, 2020)

Try splitting the rings some other way. I've seen them sawed, chiseled, side cut as AKA, but not broken with clamps. You may be stressing the opposite side of the ring as you break it, and that makes it just enough weaker to break on installation. Mark (dnalot) showed a neat way with a chisel in a mill or drill press and a little divot in the support piece. Maybe one of the engineers can explain, but often ring structures break in two places when stress is applied.
(Mark's method is on page 6 of his Holt thread, post #119)
Doug


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## werowance (Dec 20, 2020)

sprocket,  actually on this test i did it with side cutters. amazed at how well that worked.  ring is just now about ready to come out of the toaster oven.  450, 400, 375, 350, 325  all but the last for an hour per setting.   

hope tommorow is a success......


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## werowance (Dec 21, 2020)

now thats  MUCH better.  this test ring made from the piece off scrap farm equipment cast iron works SO much better.  first ring installed without problems.  its "springier" and more flexible than the store bought iron rod i bought.

now wish me luck  on the 2nd one whch i still have to split, spread the gap and heat, then slowly bake in the toaster oven.  which im not sure that helped any but im not going to jinx it by not  doing exactly the same thing i did on this one.


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## Sprocket (Dec 21, 2020)

Now try one with this technique and the old material to see which made the difference.
 Change one variable at a time or you won't really know what worked.
Doug


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## werowance (Dec 22, 2020)

ok, the ring saga is over,  i have success and am now breaking in the engine slowly.  the piston rod is a bit to tight on the crank and the rings at first were giving resistance.  at this point the rings are moving good and the rod is getting there.

what i have learned.  the number 40 continuous cast perlitic gray cast iron just wasnt as good as the scrap farm iron i had.  now dont get me wrong - i do not recomend you go out and get say window weights (tried that before and they are aweful)  but this iron gave finer filings and were blacker than the store bought was.  and when i say finer - cast iron doesnt make spiral swarf like steel or the other,  it just makes nasty powder like sand.  and the old farm iron made very fine sand and very dark in color as compared to the store bought.

now next things.  first go round on the farm iron rings was a failure.  why - because i made mistake on the bore hole size.  a signifigant one.  the rings went on but were way to thick to compress to the piston diameter.  measured them against my original ones and imediately found my mistake.  

so fortunatly i had not unchucked the farm iron and i bored it on further to the proper size..


Final results - farm iron was much more springier,  better cutting better grain etc than store bought which surprises me.  on second set of farm iron rings i did not do the toaster oven heatings of 450 etc.  but that said i could tell a big difference of not doing the toaster oven.  the rings did not want to spread like the previous set of farm iron rings did.  so that said i would recomend using the easy bake toaster oven for several hours to aneal the rings.  but  last  set i wanted to try without and the worked ok. and the toaster oven comes after the spread gap and heat to dull red or just until it wants to drop.  the toaster oven is not for setting the spreaded gap.  just to keep it from cracking afterwards


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## werowance (Dec 29, 2020)

almost ready to try and start it.  had to make a spark plug adapter, some solder tabs for the wires and condensor,  a wirel hold down lug which i used a piece of brass and a piece of drill rod and pressed it to make the half moon in the center.  all thats left is to set the points cam timing and adjust the valves. (will lock tight the carb and exhaust pipe in once those are set so its easier to work with having  them removed right now)


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## werowance (Dec 29, 2020)

welp.   it runs

December 29, 2020 - YouTube 

hope the video works.  its a horrible video i know.  and at the end i dont know if you can hear my wife say "eww it stinks" lol.  it need alot of work and i need somthing better on the spark plug deffinately.  but after 4 pulls with each i had pops it started up enough to adjust while running.  the video was after that which still needs adjustng and work but wanted to capture it incase i blew it up or something.


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## werowance (Dec 29, 2020)

not sure the first one works


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 29, 2020)

Marvelous!!!  Congratulations.---Brian


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## Sprocket (Dec 29, 2020)

Nice! sounds good. I think that exhaust gives it a good sound


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## werowance (Dec 29, 2020)

one thing i would like to share with new builders.  on the fuel tank,  DO NOT do a side fill tank.  sure offset the fill inlet to the left or right top but a side fill with 90 deg inlet is horrible.  i like to have never got it filled even with a syringe.  (turkey injector)  i even cut the injector tip so the side holes were gone and it was just spraying out the tip only.  

proplem is that it gets air locked.  might see about getting one of those syringes with the plastic tip thats curved about 90 deg or so.  i could also replace that end plate with another one and drill a fil hole and pipe on top to the side.   much later work of course but didn want to forget to tell eveyone just how bad the sidefill is


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## minh-thanh (Dec 29, 2020)

Nice engine, ! sounds good. Congratulations !


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## CFLBob (Dec 29, 2020)

Runs good, looks good, sounds good!  

Congratulations!


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## ZebDog (Dec 30, 2020)

congratulations. Sounds and runs great


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## Ken I (Dec 30, 2020)

*It's alive !*  What a great feeling when the finished project actually runs.

Runs and sounds perfect - great runner.

Regards, Ken


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## cheepo45 (Dec 30, 2020)

Congrats!
There is nothing like the feeling you get when the engine that you worked on for so long comes to life!
 Scott


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## ShopShoe (Dec 30, 2020)

It's nice to see that running.

As far as I can say, It's a wonderful thing.

--ShopShoe


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## scottyp (Dec 30, 2020)

Awesome!  I need to get going on mine!


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## karlw144 (Dec 30, 2020)

Great feeling when your new engine fires up. Great sound too! Congratulations !!


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## werowance (Dec 30, 2020)

Thank you all for the good words.  i appreciate it.

give it a couple more runs today for longer time and have an issue.  the green locktight holding the exhaust pipe as well as the carb intake pipe is getting "greasy" when it heats up.  once it cools it re-sets and is tight and hard again.  both are sliding fit with just a little bit of a twist action to get them pushed in without lock tight.  i went ahead and pulled the exhaust tube and cleaned it up and re-locktighted it.  pulled it while it was hot and "greasy" feeling.

i hope i just did a bad job on the previous aplication but if not do you think jbweld would hold them in place?


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 30, 2020)

Loctite really doesn't take much heat to give up it's "bonding" abilities. J.B. Weld sets and cures thru a totally different chemical reaction, so it might work for you. Don't use the J.B.Quick Weld. Use the original formula that takes 24 hours to fully cure.


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## olympic (Dec 31, 2020)

Very nice, indeed. Do I see in the background the valiant bicycle that gave up its spokes for your project?


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## werowance (Dec 31, 2020)

Thanks Brian,  im going to give it another run after work and see if it holds before i do the lock tight.   its had over night for the 2nd  aplication of locktight to cure.


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## werowance (Dec 31, 2020)

olympic said:


> Very nice, indeed. Do I see in the background the valiant bicycle that gave up its spokes for your project?


thats the one.  from my childhood.  been in the bottom of the barn in the dirt and mud for decades


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## werowance (Dec 31, 2020)

here is another video,  better lighting  you can actually see the valves moving in it.  still no a great video but better than the first one.


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## jlchapman (Dec 31, 2020)

Very nice job.  Sound is awesome.


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## awake (Jan 1, 2021)

Wow - runs and sounds great! Congratulations!


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## Art K (Jan 1, 2021)

Hey, congratulations on building a running engine! Its much easier to sort things out when it does run.
Art


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## werowance (Jan 2, 2021)

tore it down to clean it and then seal the crank case.   the plans said to not bother sealing it until you had it running.  also made a cover for the cam shaft on the flywheel side.   the plans said that was optional but figured it was an easy part and the fewer leaks the better.

while i had it apart i used engine parts cleaner spray to clean it up and all the black paint on the cylinder ran  off.  i read the instructions on the vht paint and DOH its a ceramic based that has to be baked on.  so basicly its like powder coat that wasnt cured yet.  and i cant bring it up to 600 deg to cure it so ill just clean what little didnt  run off and find some pot belly black as Brian suggested.  another lesson learned

but while it is appart i inspected the break in wear.  everything looks great.  just a little shiny spots on the tappets,  no wear on the crank or rod and the cylinder looks good.


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## Steamchick (Jan 2, 2021)

werowance said:


> not sure the first one works



I had a BSA B31 sounded much the same! Made me smile just to hear your engine. Well done and thanks for the extra effort of posting the build. It is much appreciated! (Especially as daytime tv is so poor during pandemic lock-in time).
K2


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## werowance (Jan 2, 2021)

No thanks needed on posting the build.  i need to thank everyone for helping me build it here.

thanks for the good words


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## werowance (Jan 10, 2021)

so i have been preparing  for this weekend to attempt to andodize the large base plate.  .... i failed.  it did in places turn gold/yellow/orange.  whatever that base uncollored anodize finish is on aluminum. but it did not cover it all. 2 hours and extremely degreesed didnt cut it.   right now i plan to paint the base plate black insted of anodize id.  but i have saved the electolite for learning on another date.   that said the base plate is polished up alot more than it was and should  take paint better now after the acid bath.

next thing i want to do is a pull cord handle.  i want to cross drill half way through and then from the end dill through to that hole and tap to a set screw   i will actually drill through the end and ream enough to put a piece of small drill rod through to tie the rope onto and then partially drill and tap that same end to put in a allen head screw into to keep that rod in place.  that way i wont have to cross drill all the way through and can have a hidden hole on the rope side.  guess if it works ill have to post a pic to show what im talking about


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## werowance (Jan 25, 2021)

pull cord handle made


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## werowance (Jan 25, 2021)

engine all sealed up and finishing up on paint, reassembly and such.
lasered a name plate for it.   a few more screws back in and such and then on to finishing up a better spark plug wire connector for it.


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## olympic (Jan 25, 2021)

That has turned out very well.


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## CFLBob (Jan 25, 2021)

Very nice looking, Bryan.  I admire your dedication to take it apart and put in the effort to "pretty it up".  Black and brass is an excellent combination.   

Does the pull starter work?


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## werowance (Jan 25, 2021)

The pull start works extremely well. or at least compared to the Webster with the rubber wheel. when I recommended the rubber wheel to you I had not finished this one up.   its awesome easy to get it started.  a couple of light pulls to prime it and a couple pulls to start it.  just a little annoying to wind the cord but I recall doing it on weed eaters and such in the early 80's and how much I hated doing it then.   but in this case I was happy to do it but  I don't know if it will work on the Webster or not.  3/4 vs 7/8 bore but I would think it probably would.


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## werowance (Jan 29, 2021)

finished up the spark plug adapter,  in the video it gets loose because i put a lot of dielectric grease in it.  after i cleaned it up that stays put as it should.
last pics and video before i post it in completed section and then put it on the shelf


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## werowance (Jan 29, 2021)

and final un edited video which shows the plug adapter getting loose. which is fixed after cleaning out the dielectric grease.  and i should say the jb weld took care of the loose exhause and carb after getting hot.

the spark plug adapter is made from a vacume line conector with a ball point pen spring in it screwed onto the brass full size spark plug tip duplication i made from brass.  dont fill with dielectric grease,  it makes it fall off.  once dry of grease it hangs on great

January 29, 2021 - YouTube


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## werowance (Jan 29, 2021)

and on the poor video i do like the fact you can see the points arcing.  not sure thats a good thing but i have seen points arc like that before on other full size engines when working on them.  but lighting was just right so it will show it later in the video


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