# Ponder this



## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Hydrogen 1 proton +ve  and 1 electron -ve 

Why doesn't the electron just zip into the proton, afterall aren't opposites suppose to attract. ???


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## kcmillin (Feb 19, 2011)

Perhaps it is the Higgs Boson, or maybe the bottom quark that prevents the transfer of electrons :big: :big:

Actually I have no Idea.

Kel


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Kel.
Ah the Higgs Boson effect - not to sure   

Dave


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 19, 2011)

Lots of time on your hands huh. ;D 

 Electrons orbit around Protons. They have radial accelleration that is keeping them away from the Proton.

 "Bill Gruby"


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Bill,
Perpetual motion, eh! - What about when electons move in conductors - shocking :big: :big: :big:

Dave


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## MachineTom (Feb 19, 2011)

They are kept apart by the neutrons, or the result is Fusion-boom +++++


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Tom,
May be,- but hydrogen doesn't have a neutron :-*

Dave


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 19, 2011)

That is correct, Hydrogen atoms are made up of only 1 Proton+ and 1 Electron -. I don't know the answer in a conductor as the Electrons move more freely in one type of conductor than another. I do maintain however that they do noy smash into each other because of the orbit the Electron is in around the Proton. The mass of the Electron is much less that the mass of the Proton. This is about as far as I can go with this. 

 "Bill Gruby"


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## rake60 (Feb 19, 2011)

Hummm, I'll have to ask my son about that one.

Rick


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## AlfrowD (Feb 19, 2011)

What it all comes down to is the fact that the two cannot exist in the exact same place. The act of the two things sitting in the same position would violate the definition of matter (don't forget no matter how small these things are they are still particles). If you were to calculate the probability density of the electron using quantum mechanics you will find the density at the proton (the origin) to be zero. Also, the speed at which the electron moves is so fast compared to the proton that the proton is effectively sitting still and comes out similar to the orbit of a planet (but not)... In other words without deriving the calculations on here I cannot show you but only describe it.

Also, I am by no means a P-Chemist they could do a much better job explaining this I'm sure.

Andrew


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## Foozer (Feb 19, 2011)

I just wonder where that electron is headed to in such a hurry. Like you chill it down and bring it to a near halt, let er warm up and its pedal to the metal again. Just where was it headed off to in such a rush . . . 

Robert


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 19, 2011)

Don't know where it's going or why it's in a hurry but you wouldn't be here if it was not headed somewhere. :bow:

 "Bill Gruby"


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Andrew,

I agree with your answer (except I don't understand it).
The proton and electon don't have to occupy the space, just be attracted to each other. So why don't they attract each other?

Dave


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## Foozer (Feb 19, 2011)

Earth and moon, gravitational rather than charge based. Gravity (charge) tries to pull them together, orbital speed tries to separate them. They are attracted, the electron seems to be an unwilling companion tho.

Force them together and ah ha metallic energy

Robert


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Hello Robert wondered where you were.

Wishing upon a star by the sounds of things.

Still not convinced 
Dave


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## AlfrowD (Feb 19, 2011)

Dave,

I don't actually have the words to say it myself. It comes down to the fact that the way that most of us visualize atoms it seems like it should be possible; however, the way that we visualize things is in a way that we can understand them. The derivations and math behind proving this is very messy. Yes, opposites attract, however in that very same way they attract one another they can become "too close" and then repel. This concept yields a energy potential diagram (energy on the y axis and distance on the x axis) that when they are "too close" the energy is high (lower energy is better in the universe) and too far away the energy is zero. There is an energy well that is observed between these distances in which the electron would be close but not sitting in the center which describes the electron's orbit.

I found another forum that you may want to check out and that may give you a little more insight than I can.
http://focusfusion.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/790/

Cheers,
Andrew


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Andrew,
Gee wiz, gets worse, and it seems it that the electron could actually be right next to the proton. Now there's a thing.

I did a few years back ask a Physicists this "question" - He said this is quantum theory and quantum mechanics, the bits that make up the atom do not behave or comply to Newtonian mechanics. ;D

What a fiddle 
Dave


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 19, 2011)

I must stand corrected on this. I did what some do and called an orbit the same as in a planet. Upon further searching some of the above info this is not at all true. The electron in its motion gives off EM-radiation to conserve energy. This will cause the electron to slow down and come, as you say Dave, crashing into the proton. Now I'm lost ??? ??? ??? ???

 This thread is getting very interesting.

 "Bill Gruby"


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## bearcar1 (Feb 19, 2011)

Save those questions for the science fair Dave.

BC1
Jim


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## Majorstrain (Feb 19, 2011)

Gravity is a myth!

The EARTH really SUCKS.  :big:

Back in my box now.
Cheers
Phil


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## DaveH (Feb 19, 2011)

Bill

It's may be interesting, I find it damn right scary.

Dave


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 19, 2011)

DaveH  said:
			
		

> Bill
> 
> It's may be interesting, I find it damn right scary.
> 
> Dave



 Scary, yes, because it defies all logic. Every time I read something new it contradicts what I read before. Hence my being lost. ??? ???

 "Bill Gruby"


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## Foozer (Feb 20, 2011)

AlfrowD  said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I found another forum that you may want to check out and that may give you a little more insight than I can.
> http://focusfusion.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/790/
> ...



"we may just create new particles out of the vacuum that can do unexpected things."

Probably a good thing we cant generate the energy needed for that, yet

Robert


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 20, 2011)

You could ask Heisenberg but he's never certain and usually all over the place.


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## Foozer (Feb 20, 2011)

I just ask the Bride, she's ALWAYS certain and I know my place

Robert


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## DaveH (Feb 20, 2011)

I am now wondering why all these protons are able to stick together I thought likes repelled!! ???

Dave


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## picclock (Feb 20, 2011)

Two hydrogen atoms out for a stroll, one asks the other "Are you OK ?" 
"Not feeling very well - I think I may have lost an electron"
"Are you sure ?"
"Yep - I'm positive"

Apologies to all who read this ;D

picclock


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## DaveH (Feb 20, 2011)

Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}


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## steamer (Feb 20, 2011)

He's here all week! Try the meatloaf and tip the waiter...

 ;D

Dave


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## DaveH (Feb 20, 2011)

I am sure some of you are a bit perplexed at what I am doing sitting here, (or not) so I will tell you.
A few weeks ago I downloaded Alibre Design, so I am sitting here plodding my way through trying to learn how to draw in 3D.

So with my one good eye on Alibre and the other good eye on HMEM my thoughts do often wander, hence my silly posts

Nothing sinister I'm just a little nutz

Dave


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## steamer (Feb 20, 2011)

No Worries,

Alibre is a good package...I have it also.

Keep pondering.....

Dave


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