# Looking for boiler operating advice



## ghart3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Getting close to finishing a model steam tractor of Rudy Kouhoupts design. Have article from Feb. 1971 Popular Mechanics, the plans and the pages of instruction.
One problem is that Rudy makes no mention on operating instructions.
This is a water tube horizontal copper boiler of about 14 cubic inches. There is no sight glass or try cocks.  There is a inlet with valve that enters boiler at the center line. Rudy says This valve will double for checking the water level in the boiler and as a connection where you can pump water into the boiler  --- No mention of how much water to put in the boiler.

 Village Press is coming out with a book on this model.  Having finished making the tractor, dont think Im interested in buying the book when it comes out.

The boiler was hydro tested at 120 psi.  Relief valve is fully open at 30 psi and working pressure is recommended at 15 psi.

The fire is from dual wick burners fed from a fuel tank of about 5 to 5 and half cubic inches.  Guessing fuel to use is alcohol. There is no means to stop flow of fuel or easy way to put fire out.

Looking for advice on how to operate. 

Fill with water to water inlet level, half full?
Fill with fuel (alcohol?) and run till fire burns out?
Let cool off before refilling?


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 23, 2008)

How big is the fuel tank?
Was the Boiler Silver Soldered?
I would ;
Fill with water to water inlet level, half full
Half Fill with fuel (alcohol?) and run till fire burns out
Let cool off before refilling
Measure how much water to refill to half full.
Repeat increasing fuel amount until you reach a fuel level that will give you a good run without running out of water.
the Tractor looks fantastic, can you post more photos or videos of it running?
Regards,
Gerald.


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## steamer (Sep 23, 2008)

Ghart3,

Your roller looks great, but I have a couple of concerns that I would like to convey.
I mean them sincerely, and I am trying to be helpful. I have run a few boilers big and small, and would like to convey a bit of that..

In the spirit of being helpful, here it goes.

*I* would fit a gauge glass to the model.  They are readily available in small sizes.

If the bottom end is low enough, it can be the low connection.  Connect the top end to a/the steam line.

I wouldn't normally second guess one of Rudy's designs as the man was a genius, but I disagree with running a boiler without a sight glass....regardless.

I know we're talking about very low pressure....30 psi and below are off the regulatory radar all together.
But even if there isn't a burst problem,..and no I am not your mother so I won't preach either,
Building that boiler was a lot of work....I know I've done that.
I would hate to see it get damaged through a moments indiscretion......( low water)

As Gerald asked and rightly so, was the boiler silver soldered? or soft soldered?  I wouldn't run a boiler that was soft soldered...not on steam anyway. That would be a safety issue for sure.

Gerald, I agree with your procedure from there on. I think a proper glass will make it easier to determine a fuel load too.

I posted a broad list of does and don't with boilers in the safety section.  Ghart3, again I mean this most sincerely, if your not experienced firing and operating a boiler, I would find a Model engineering club in your area and ask for some assistance on this, at least the first time. I am sure many would jump at the chance to help. Your workmanship would appear very good  It's always easier to learn from someone else too...
In the end you Ghart3 are responsible for your boiler. Just Plan carefully and it can be a ton of fun!

Happy steaming, be safe, and warm regards! 

Dave

PS Where are you located?


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## ghart3 (Sep 23, 2008)

Gerald,  
The fuel tank is 1" high and about 2.2" by 2.5" and feeds two wick burners.
The boiler is silver brazed.  and no soft solder is used on any steam fittings.

Thanks for idea of filling boiler to half level and fuel tank half full will give that as my first try.  Maybe tomorrow as I finished the plumbing up today.  Will record water consumption.  Will try taking pictures and post.
Thanks for replying
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Dave,
Appreciate your concerns and suggestions.
Dumb excuse but I didn't study the plans before starting. Just started on drawing #1 and kept going.  It wasn't until near the end did I realize there was no sight glass or try cocks.  There is no simple way to add a sight glass now. There is no connections below the half level of the boiler. The boiler slides inside a hunk of 2" pipe. The pipe is the main framework for the tractor and this is what makes access to boiler for making sight glass installation very difficult.

Have had a little training with steam.  Took a steam class where we studied boilers and the operation of full size steam traction engines.  This was at Brooks, Oregon.  I do remember that the two things that are a must are never leave a boiler unattended and never let boiler get too low on water.  

Appreciate your advice, Thanks for replying.

Gary
Vancouver, WA


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## steamer (Sep 23, 2008)

Understood.

Best of luck to you.

Dave


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## Circlip (Sep 24, 2008)

Over here in good old Blighty we had a manufacturer who used to sell dangerous toys to those of us of a certain age, to allow us to burn our fingers and sometimes set fire to the living room carpet. AHHHH, gone are the days thanks to legislation and the HSE, but if your lucky, you can still get MAMOD models on freebay etc. and emulate our past tinkerings.
 The operation of these potential bombs was REALLY complicated cos it was ALL covered on an A6 (about 5" X 3") sheet of paper and would apply to your engine too as Rudy has done a pretty good "Simulation" of a MAMOD but has refined it slightly. With TOTAL respect to Steamers comments, and other posts will qualify MY outlook on safety, a sight glass would, although giving some indication of water level, be a bit of an over kill on this one as the only safe ones would have shut off cocks at both ends of the sight glass in case of breakage, and you're going to run out of space. The Mamods could be refilled via the safety valve hole at the top of the boiler, but you only filled to the level of the level plug at the end of the boiler.
 As has been stated, check how long the fire burns with respect to the water consumption, cos the Mamod ones were carefully calculated to run out of fuel (Meths, not the namby pamby "Tablets"- can't set fire to the carpets with those) BEFORE water. I suppose it was lucky that someone made a convenient sized circular tin as the fuel tank?
 Only Screamer is that you pressure tested to 120psi, why ? your only running at up to 15, OK 30 max. so you've got quite a factor of safety there, even 60 would have been good, Rudy has obviously done the calcs to give a totally safe job if the builders follow his destructions properly, above that it only stresses the boiler.
 Not going to wish you good luck on your first steaming, Luck has nothing to do with it, you've followed the rules so you shouldn't have any problems.
 Best regards Ian.

 PS. The new man made carpets are MUCH easier to light in comparison to Axminster's and Wilton's.


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## steamer (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi Circlip,

Didn't know the Mamods went without! The Jensens have them in the form of a porthole. They are still available and have many new products today! When I was eight ( about that age) I got one....sorry mambe pampe tablet I'm afraid, but it didn't stop me from running it with a propane torch. Beware of giving a steam engine to someone who's dad has tools! ;D  I still have it though I won't state the age to protect the innocent. :
Midwest sells a simple wobbler and boiler combo with the only feature for safety is the silicone tubing used as the steam line to the engine which doubles as a safety valve.  Been selling them for years. It's pretty tiny. I think the bore and stroke is about 5/16"....or about 8mm. So there is precedence

I couldn't tell size in the photo, so forgive me if I came off just a bit nanny. Rudy was a genius, and I am sure it was designed right.  Hard to tell via pixels is all. It's tough to give advice without all the information, hence my suggestion to find someone local to help out
Ghart3, Check here
http://www.modeleng.org/canclubs.htm
Safety first. Have fun Congratulations on a nice Minnie!

Dave


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## Circlip (Sep 24, 2008)

Dave, DON'T apologise for thinking you came over nanny, your experiences are proof that being "Nanny" pays off. A few years ago a guy who had vast experience of full size was tragically killed operating a Lake steamer, again full size, but even the little un's can blow yer bloody 'ed orft. Could be Wrong ( WHAT, a YORKSHIREMAN? ?) but can't remember Mamod ever putting sight glasses on, just doesn't go with burned fingers/carpets etc. whimps, stiff upper lip and all that.
 Seen the silicone tube "safety valves", the manufacturers should get a swift kick up the ****! same for the mag that allowed the publication of a"Boiler" using screwed fittings for its construction that we saw an example of on these posts recently.
 I reiterate, play safely, Regards Ian.


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 24, 2008)

Since its Silver soldered you should have no problems with it, just make sure the fuel runs out before the water. Also make sure you lubricate everything, I don't know if it has a Steam lubricator, it if does only use steam oil in it.
Regards,
Gerald


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## ghart3 (Sep 24, 2008)

Did done the first steam up. Wahoo, it ran.
Filled fuel tank half full with alcohol.
Filled boiler half full with water, measured 7 oz. by volume.
Lighted the fire,  it burnt for 20 minutes.
Highest steam pressure got was about 10 psi. Had leak at pressure gauge fitting.
Think need to fan out wicks to get more heat out of burners.
It took 3 oz of water by volume to refill to half way.
So guessing full tank of fuel and boiler half full will leave 1 ounce of water in boiler when the fire goes out.
Will put extra half ounce of water in boiler on next try using full fuel tank.

Gerald, it has lubricator but I don't have any steam oil. Is there a substitute oil I can use?

Gary

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/ghart3/Models/?action=view&current=1ststeam013.flv


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## Maryak (Sep 24, 2008)

Congratulations on your first steam up and a very nice model. :bow:

Any straight mineral oil, (ie no additives such as in engine oil), will do, the heavier the better.

Bob


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## Florian (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi together

for steam models, olive oil works quite well.  (before there were all these technical refined oils, watchmakers used olive oil to lubricate the clock's bearings.
The advantage of olive oil is, that it isn't very viscous if its cold. And its a lot cheaper than special steam oil. 

By the way, its nod quite true that any mineral oil will do. What's important is, that the oil does not get whashed from the surfaces by the steam. If you use any oil, you may have a cylinder damage. 

Florian


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 24, 2008)

I disagree with Bob " Any straight mineral oil, (ie no additives such as in engine oil), will do, the heavier the better."
Steam Oil has tallow in it and is made to emulsify with the steam, ordinary mineral oil doesn't. Try your local oil distributor you may be able to talk them into a sample. Some of the G1 Live steamers use Lucas upper cylinder oil, I haven't tried it as Steam oil is not really hard to find. In a pinch I would try air tool oil.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS if there is a hobby shop around that sells Mamod they may have some.


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## CrewCab (Sep 24, 2008)

ghart3  said:
			
		

> Wahoo, it ran.



Congratulations 8) .............. very well done ......... got any pictures by any chance, sorry Gary, but pictures are "almost" mandatory here 

CC


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## steamer (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey CC,

God man go check his photobucket....Ghart3 is quite prolific!

Beautiful stuff there. And the Minnie is nice too!  I really like the Simplex.

Go look go look go look!

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/ghart3/Models/?action=view&current=1ststeam013.flv

Dave


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## ghart3 (Sep 24, 2008)

Florian, I have some olive oil in the shop. So will give that a try.  Not sure how lubricator works, guessing steam condenses in chamber pushing oil out.  Does draining lubricator and finding water give enough evidence that the cylinder is getting lubricated?

I didn't have a piece of bronze in my scrap pile for making the cylinder.  So made cylinder out of brass and put in a sintered bronze bushing as a sleeve. Got no idea if that was a good move or not.

CC, got all the parts finished that were on Rudy's drawings. Will try get them put on tomorrow and take a picture.  Would rather show a picture then try explaining.

Gary


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## Maryak (Sep 25, 2008)

Steamboat model,

A reference to the lubrication of steam engines, compounded oils, ie those containing vegetable or animal fats are not recommended for use in steam cylinders because of the rapid oxidation which can occur at elevated temperatures, leading to the formation of gums and resins in the cylinder. More important where piston rings are fitted.

Compound oils were designed for the "open" parts of reciprocating steam engines, (mains, bigends, crossheads, slippers and guides), where a non conpounded oil may be washed away by interaction with condensate leaking from the engine, particularly during the warm through period.

Attached is a reference from the British Admiralty which gives a brief explanation of oils used in Naval Machinery at the time when main propulsion was 90% by steam engines, both reciprocating and turbine.

Hope this helps
Bob 

View attachment Oils.pdf


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Bob, 
In my copy of Plant Engineeting Handbook published in 1959, under Steam-Cylinder Lubrication they have the following; 
"STEAMCYL1NDER LUBIUCATION 
Steam-cylinder oils must be of comparatively heavy body and possessed of high wettability in order to ensure that the lubricating film will cling to the valve seat and cylinder walls, withstand washing off by the steam, and resist the wearing or scraping effects of valves and pistons. 
Viscosity or body is attainable by suitable refining. 
Wettability is obtained by judicious treatment of the cylinder stock and the 
addition of certain fatty oils to obtain an emulsifying effect. 
An oil having a viscosity range of between approximately 100 and 220 SSU at 
210°F is generally required according to 
The steam pressure and temperature involved 
2. The type of steam valves 
3. The means of application available 
Cylinder oil may be classified according to viscosity as follows: 
1. Light_bodied_ to 120 to 120 SSU at 210°F 
2. Medium-bodied_120 to 150 SSU at 210°F 
3. Heavy_bodied_150 SSU (or above) at 210°F "
This is in section 26-25. I have worked and played around steam for over 40 years and all steam oils I have seen have had fatty oils usually tallow in it, normally about 4%.
Could you post page 155 of the book you scanned, as it just mentions clyinder oil OM750 at the bottom and is continued on the next page.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Maryak (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Gerald,

Attached is the next page as you requested.

The statement therein that these oils will not separate readily from water does indeed suggest some form of emulsifier.

This is at odds with page 154 - OM -Oil Mineral. and OC - Oil Compounded.

Your information appears to be much more definitive than mine.

Thanks for sorting me out :bow:

Regards
Bob



View attachment Oils2.pdf


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 25, 2008)

That is what is confusing me Bob, usually Naval engineering publications are pretty good. What is the full title of the book? and who is it published by and in what year?
Regards,
Gerald


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## ghart3 (Sep 26, 2008)

Played around with some olive oil, as suggested by Florian, today.
Put some olive olive oil on some sheet metal and heated from below with propane torch.  They didn't appear to make an emulsion but the water and olive oil seemed to get along together.  The olive oil got thinner with heat and spread a film of oil on the metal.  After the water evaporated the oil film stayed thin.  Put the torch flame on top of the olive oil to see if it would oxidize and get gummy.  About 5 seconds of flame pointed at oil film didn't seem to bother it.

Thinking in my low pressure, low temperature engine if just might work good. Or, am i thinking wrong?

Didn't get Rudy's tractor done today. Decided to make some changes in linkage and things didn't go so good.  So took no pictures......... gary


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## Maryak (Sep 26, 2008)

Gerald,

The name of the book is BR 2007 Naval Marine Engineering Practice Publisher HMSO 1955.

Regards
Bob


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## Maryak (Sep 26, 2008)

Gerald,

Our discussions re steam cylinder oil really started me thinking, (a very unusual event fraught with peril) ???

Some 5 years ago I was asked to fill in as engineer in a paddle steamer on the Murray river, (big event special paddle steamer weekend), as the regular engineer was suddenly taken very ill. I agreed as long as there was room, (cabin and bunk), for SHMBO. This was sorted so off we went.

The engine was a simple twin mounted on top of a loco type boiler, fired by wood at 125psig.

The main lubricator for the cylinder was a displacement lubricator, this particular one was fitted with a sight glass to show level of oil v water in the main chamber and hence when it was time for a top up.

Thinks I, how well would this work with emulsified oil? Conclusion maybe not very well. Now what was the name of the oil? another long pause whilst the gears changed and up popped Castrol Cresta.

Cresta comes in various grades but of particular interest is that it is supplied both compounded and as a straight mineral oil, particularly for superheat and condensing engines.

The engine on the paddler was non condensing, the exhaust being used first for feed heating and second for draught.

Attached is the Castrol data sheet.

Regards Bob


View attachment Oils3.pdf


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## ghart3 (Oct 26, 2008)

Finally finished, well almost the steam tractor.  Added couple more gears to get more speed reduction to the wheels.  Could of used more reduction for my likings.
Added more wick to the burners and it was a little too much as relief valve was open when below half throttle. 

Took almost 10 minutes to get steam and then ran for 23 minutes before the pressure dropped below 5 psi. Other then trimming the wicks some,  think will add a valve to vent boiler at the pressure gauge fitting so it will be easier to fill and drain back the boiler.

Giving a first try at You Tube and see if can insert a video.

This was my first completed pressurized boiler and would like to thank ya all for the advice given.     gary

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI3VzYbfjQ[/ame]


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## Maryak (Oct 26, 2008)

Gary,

Congratulations :big: :bow:

Regards
Bob


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