# I wish we'd team build a boiler now



## BobWarfield (Jun 28, 2008)

I was just looking at the parts I've gotten so far for the team build--getting ready to pack up the flyweels and con rods and mail 'em out. I'll be sorry to see them go, but putting them together with the crank and frame I was getting excited. These are going to be real nice little engines.

It made me start thinking about a boiler. I don't suppose anyone wants to team build some boilers? I don't know if it'd save any time or not, but I've got to hear these little beauties run on steam. They just don't sound right on air if you ask me. While we're at it we need to build some little whistles too, LOL.

Cheers,

BW


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## Powder keg (Jun 28, 2008)

I've been thinking that would be a great Idea. It might save a little time? Plus it would be fun)

Wes


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## Brass_Machine (Jun 30, 2008)

As much as I would like to do this... The issue of safety is bouncing in the back of my mind. I am not sure this would be a great idea.

I will tell you what I did. I bought a small wobbler kit that included a small boiler that runs off of sterno. I use that boiler when I want to run things off of steam until I get the courage to build a nice boiler.

Eric


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## Florian (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi Guys

Boilermaking can be quite easy, if you have certain information about. I have a small book about boilermaking and there are (almost) all the informations one needs to build boilers. There even is a plan for a nice looking boiler in this book. 
All the important things about safety is included, so the person consulting that book should be able to build a safe steam boiler.

Here an extract from this book:



 



 



 



 



 






It is very important, that the boiler gets silver soldered.
And of course, you need to make the pressure test

Florian


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## Florian (Jul 1, 2008)

On the fifth picture you can see what materials with a boiler can be made. All you need is having the wholes drilled, adding ferrules and soldering the boiler. 

Florian


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## Bogstandard (Jul 1, 2008)

I am not trying to say that people couldn't make a good job of it, but as Eric says, safety with boilers is paramount.

Just think of it this way.

Would you put your life in the hands of others for the sake of a hobby?

I am sure I wouldn't.

I would suggest, if you want one, build it yourself, or purchase one from a professional source, and if anything goes wrong, you only have yourself to blame. Plus there would be no massive lawsuits against the other team members.

Concerned John


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## Florian (Jul 1, 2008)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Would you put your life in the hands of others for the sake of a hobby?



Hi Bogstandard

Well... Safety first, thats what i agree, but that doesn't mean that you completely abdicate doing something. 
For example: there always is the danger of having an accident on the street. But do you stop driving your car because there is a danger? Normally No! You can minimize the danger if you drive careful and attentive. 

And that's the same with boilermaking. If you follow certain principles of boilermaking like:

-calculating how thick the sheet for the boiler has to be (And using a big enough security factor)
-soldering it with silver soldern (Even Wilesco doesn't silver solder their boilers...!)
-making a water pressure test 
-consult an expert for the project if you don't know anything about
-The person soldering the boilers NEEDS TO HAVE EXPERIENCE IN HARD SOLDERING!!

(and there are maybe some more) 

then you should get a quite safe boiler. 
Of course i don't want to instigate a (boilermaking-) newbie to do this.

I make my boilers by myself. And they are working quite well. I followed all these principles listed above and i think my boilers are safe. 

By the way: all the boilers working in 5" locomotives... they have been made by experts or by the locomotive-builders themselfs. But will you now get around these locomotives? 

Florian


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## Cedge (Jul 1, 2008)

Florian
Without trying to start any arguments, would you really trust me, sight unseen and having never seen me solder, to do so on a pressure vessel that you are going to stand next to? 

The board has a fair percentage of novices in the mix, many of whom do not have your skill sets nor access to your informative book. Getting in way over one's head can easily happen, even with the best of intentions. If an individual gets into trouble, only one person is likely to suffer. In a group build, that number goes up geometrically. I'd recommend that anyone who is interested in building a boiler, feel free to do so , but arm your self with enough knowledge to do it safely. It's just not a good idea for a group build on the basis of varied skill levels, experience, safety or personal liability. I can't blame the "powers that be" for not wanting to officially sanction the idea. 

I for one would feel quite bad if a fellow member was injured due to advice I gave while assuming "anyone can do it". Definitely not something I'd want shared with a jury of my peers.

Steve


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## Bogstandard (Jul 1, 2008)

Florian,



> then you should get a quite safe boiler



Why should, instead of would, and why quite?

I have been making boilers for most of my life in model engineering, and I am not saying you should not make boilers.

What I am saying, unless you know exactly what you are doing, and have total control over it, then you should not rely on someone else's workmanship to give you the raw materials and parts to make one out of. Professional boiler makers are covered by laws regarding manufacture, your model engineering buddy isn't.

If you have say six FULLY experienced boilermakers, then yes, maybe take a chance, and let someone make the parts for you, but even that would put me off making a boiler. It is my life that I would be risking, if I am going to take that risk, and it is a risk, then I would like to know no one else is responsible for any of the parts other than myself.

I might be classed as interfering and over cautious, I am still here, will you be after you have made your boilers?

Your decisions, your bodies.

'nuff said

John


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## BobWarfield (Jul 1, 2008)

Seems to me there is a lot of work to a nice boiler beyond the silver soldering. There is press work, for example, to form the domed ends or a steam dome. There is plumbing and turning work to make various bungs, valves, sight glasses and the like. There is an alcohol or other burner to be made.

One could assign every bit of the non-soldering to a team build, and then have each individual do their own soldering and pressure testing once they receive the full kit of parts. There is also silver soldering that has no pressure-bearing requirements that could be considered.

We could also start from a set of plans that have been vetted as working well.

If you're worried about the liability, I understand, but any team build whatsoever has liabillity. All machine tools are dangerous. Who is to say that someone who injures themselves building their part doesn't choose to sue the group for having dragged them into the build in the first place? And heaven forbid someone like Bog give anyone advice or show how he's making parts on a lathe or mill lest that lead to liability too.

I don't quite understand the view that boilers are inherently more dangerous than even a drill press, that most feared of machines in our shops.

In any event, if you don't want to do it, then you don't want to do it.

Cheers,

BW


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## rangerssteamtoys (Jul 1, 2008)

A small toy boiler 15psi- is quite simple. I built 2 so far, on from a midwest kit and the other from a piece of exhaust pipe. The steel one was wleded by my dad and we added pressure gauges and I even made a simple steam engine. There was no saftey valve :  but it worked. 

A small toy boiler like a 2" copper boiler with a few fire tubes would be OK. Add all the saftey features and I see no problem with it, we make the parts and YOU solder it. So if you mess up its your fault.

I believe that some of you do use too much saftey, on big things its OK to use quite a bit of saftey but on little things you dont have to use as much saftey as on the big ones. Example if you were going to build 2 boilers, on thats for a toy and goes to about 20 psi. The other for a locomotive and goes up to about 150 psi, would you use the same materials for both? No, a big boiler needs more metal than a small boiler.

Sorry if this is offensive to some but if you look at the forum alot of it is arguing about saftey.


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## Cedge (Jul 1, 2008)

Bob...
Pretty simple... my drill press isn't likely to explode in a scalding cloud of steam if I make a minor miscalculation.

No one is saying boiler building is verboten, just that the board owner/admin/mods don't feel comfortable in blessing a group effort for building them. Each time we power a machine, we each make a choice on how much risk is acceptable, because we control that aspect of the hobby within our own shops. That's a wee bit different from asking the owner of the board to accept a group assessment of what his own exposure should be. 

Unsanctioned builds are not forbidden, even among a group of members. It just wouldn't be an HMEM board organized project. Any individual can organize such a project... but it doesn't have to require board approval. The rest of us will even enjoy watching it's progress, just as we do with any build that is shared here. 

Ranger...
You might be confusing the terms safety and precaution. Material choices can be just as important to safety as remembering not to leave a chuck key in a chuck. The end result of ignoring either is an injury. At 14 you've not yet witnessed the blood and gore of a fatal incident brought on by moment of inattention to safety. I wish I were so blessed... perhaps I'd still feel invincible too.

Steve


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## Alphawolf45 (Jul 1, 2008)

Bob Warfield
 I'd do boilers with you. I have 100 ton shop press and cnc mills if need to make press dies..What size you hankering to build?...


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## rangerssteamtoys (Jul 1, 2008)

Steve-I'm just saying that we can do it with the right amount of saftey an precaution. Too much and nothing gets done and/or someone gets scared out of the hobby. I believe in enough saftey to not be injured/killed, I believe that I get this "saftey is not that big of a deal" from my dad.

When it comes to fire- I'm really safe, I have had a few explosions  and some strange things happen. I should treat steam almost like fire and I try.

Bob- Who are you talking about boilers too? Me or someone else?


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## Cedge (Jul 1, 2008)

Ranger
I don't have to go much further than your avatar to see that Dad is keeping his eye on your safety issues. He's old enough to make well reasoned decisions on what you are allowed to do and what he draws the line at. You're safety is monitored much more than you realize. Dad is just brave enough to allow you room to run with your ideas. You can bet he's balanced the equation before you embark on your adventures. He isn't going to let you do anything that will take you from him.... bet on it.

That being said, I still envy you your world and the exuberance with which you are exploring it.

Steve


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## Brass_Machine (Jul 1, 2008)

rangerssteamtoys  said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Sorry if this is offensive to some but if you look at the forum alot of it is arguing about saftey.



I don't agree with this... Take a closer look, the big issue that we have been having about safety revolves around the boiler you are building because members do not wish to see you hurt. 3 or 4 threads do not equal "A Lot"

At 14 years old, you do not have the real world experience that most of us have here. In time you will, I hope it isn't bad experiences.

Considering in your avatar, you are wearing gloves and a shield... I doubt your father thinks of safety as no big deal.

Eric


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## Bogstandard (Jul 1, 2008)

I didn't want to cause any uproar with my post and subsequent answer.

What I did want to do is inform members that the safety issue should be theirs and theirs alone, not someone else making critical parts for you.


Ranger, wrong attitude I am afraid, and it is now time to put you in the picture, without destroying your eagerness to try different things. As long as you keep to the safety rules.

What you don't realise is what sort of time bomb you are handling.

Imagine one of your 'toy' boilers, say 3" diameter by 6" long, working at your supposedly 20PSI. To you it is the 20PSI you go on about, saying it is a 'safe' sort of pressure, just because it is a low figure. That means absolutely nothing, just read on.

The PSI means in laymans terms, POUNDS OF PRESSURE ACTING ON EVERY SQUARE INCH OF THE BOILER'S SURFACE.

Surface area of the boiler skin - approx 115 square inches (in fact just over 113)
Multiply that by 20 = 2,300 lbs (over a ton) of total surface pressure. A rather large amount of stored energy to let loose at any one instant. Not a thing to be played about with. If you are lucky and you get a minor rupture, you just might get a bit of scalding water chasing you, if you are unlucky, I wouldn't bear to think about it. So why take the chance. You can't be lucky all the time.

Now you see why a lot of people go on about safety when working with boilers, if you can't grasp it, and play safe, you shouldn't play with it.

We don't want to find out you have had a nasty accident, because you have ignored all the warnings, and taken things into your own hands.

John


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## zeusrekning (Jul 1, 2008)

I'll step in here as a bystandered. I have no knowledge (absolutly 100% ignorance of the subject) or at the present time interest in steam boilers. I have really enjoyed watching firebirds build and learned a lot through his learnings. But they are not a thing I feel comfortable with. And that is something I never can say. Almost everything interest me and I usually have no hesitation jumping into something feet first. 
I plan on getting around to casting stuff one day. I understand the caution needed and I want to hear of what can possibly go wrong. I'm not one to sit down and read a bunch of books on the subject. I need to learn from someone that i can ask questions to when I don't understand. I don't know how to contact the authors . 

Anyways, Point being....
Steve(Cedge) so kindly, gave my son a small Osilatting steamer that had cosmetic flaws but runs great. I was playing with it and unscrewed the saftey release valve. Needless to say Very HOT water went every where. Luckily my face was not near. 


So lets say I'm lurking here (like I did for so long). I want to build a bolier cause I seen a steamer on You Tube.(I would do this). I come across this wonderful HMEM site where some guy is building a 150psi boiler. Looks cooool. No one post, but he seems to know his ****. So I mimic his build. Something goes wrong and I get hurt, my children watching with my wife get hurt. 

This is all hypothetical but could happen. If you don't feel a need to heed the saftey warnings, ignore it. You and I are not the only people reading this. I do often read bits and pieces online trying to figure out a subject before jumping in. It is what I enjoy. But there are people who read less. The saftey topics are there for them. For the guy who signs up only to look at the pics (done that too). The more times it is mentioned that you MUST be careful the more chance someone who needs to see it will.
Tim


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## BobWarfield (Jul 1, 2008)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> Bob...
> Pretty simple... my drill press isn't likely to explode in a scalding cloud of steam if I make a minor miscalculation.



This is my point. The drill press or any other power tool in your shop is just as likely to cause injury, if not more likely because they're being used for a lot more hours. A piece slung out of any kind of rotating machinery may as well be a bomb, it's at least a gun. 

You fellas have made your choice about the board, and that's fine. I just think you're viewing a boiler as wildly more dangerous than the rest of what's here on these boards and I'm not too sure that's the case.

Let's not belabor it though. I can deal with putting together my own boiler. I just want a smallish thing to run my little steam engines properly. Something maybe twice the size of the little German toy I had as a child.

Cheers,

BW


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## Bogstandard (Jul 1, 2008)

I won't put this to sleep just yet, just in case someone hasn't understood the implications of home boiler building.

This is from Bob's previous


> You fellas have made your choice about the board, and that's fine. I just think you're viewing a boiler as wildly more dangerous than the rest of what's here on these boards and I'm not too sure that's the case.



Just answer one question,

Why do governments of the civilised world put restrictions on the building and use of boilers, and not onto machine tools? You can also add Insurance companies to that as well.

Do they know something you don't.

John


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## Brass_Machine (Jul 1, 2008)

Everyone has valid points here. I see both sides of this.

I understand what Bob is saying about this hobby being inherently dangerous. I think the key here is that when you are in your shop... you and you alone are responsible for the safe operation and maintenance of your machines. It is not anyone's fault if you leave a key in your chuck but your own.

When you add in the aspect of other people building parts for a boiler, then you are relying on someone else. While yes, more than likely everyone here can build the accessories for a boiler with no problems (bungs etc...) that is the possibility of a problem. Even the tiny boilers can be a bomb. Why take the chance? 

I don't think anyone here is viewing a boiler as wildly more dangerous, it's the introduction of unknown variables to the boiler building process. We all know boilers are and can be dangerous, why add to that?

If people want to get together and build parts for a boiler, more power to you. It may work out just fine. I won't however be involved nor will I officially endorse a team build for it.

I foresee this thread taking a turn for the worse. We have all been civil up to this point. Remember, we are all friends here and lets keep it civil to prevent locking of this thread and worse yet, bad feelings among members.

Eric


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## firebird (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi

Well Iv'e just read all the posts about 3 times now. Very interesting. I imagine most of you have been following my boiler making project. Firstly I read as much as I could on the subject until I was happy that I could attempt a simple boiler. I particularly studied the safety side of things as I quickly became aware of the possible dangers involved. I stated right at the start of my post that it should be considered experimental and not a set of plans to follow. Before I started I figured out a way to hydraulic test it and intend to get it re-checked by a club inspector with the view of running at shows. I have recieved a lot of help and advice along the way and my thanks go to all that have joined in, John and Sandy C to name just two. I want to make a small boiler. What I do in my own workshop I consider is down to me and the risk is all mine but I make every attempt to stay on the right side of safety. If I'm not sure about something I will ask and heed the advice given. There is a vast amount of knowledge here on this forum and I take on board all I can get. I have to say though, even with my limited knowledge, that I'm not sure about a TEAM BUILD. Doing everything myself I have full control over the build so can only blame myself if anything goes wrong. Having said that I doubt that one man at the professional boiler builders makes all the parts and then solders them together himself. I think for us model makers doing it all yourself would be the best option. Just my opinion for what its worth. 

Cheers

Rich.

P.S.

I haven't posted anything for a while re A SMALL BOILER because I haven't been in the shop for a while. I hope to get on with something next week.


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## Divided He ad (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm not trying to stir things up again.... I just remembered seeing this and thought it very poignant to this thread.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R348vGkjyw[/ame]


If you watched this to the violent end and took note of what the inexperienced builder and friends were saying then you will now know that some people do very stupid things with SAFTY/PRESSURE RELEASE valves!!!

I'm not saying that anyone here would tighten the pressure release to the point that it may as well just be a bolt! But it does certainly happen.

I for one will take great care in future when I do decide to make/run boilers. (and yes I will make one or more at some point.)


Ralph.


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## Brass_Machine (Jul 1, 2008)

Point proven. That video shows even the small "hobby" boilers can be dangerous. I hope no-one was hurt with all the flying metal.

Granted that boiler looked like hell and they were heating it with a torch... but still.


Eric


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## Mcgyver (Jul 1, 2008)

Poor old Darwin, food supply chains of the western world have arrested natural selection (if you need proof watch the Jerry Springer show) and now you guys want to reduce the chances of the feeble minded blowing themselves up? hows the species to evolve? ;D



> Firstly I read as much as I could on the subject until I was happy that I could attempt a simple boiler.



that imo was the best thing written in this thread. When one sets out to build a boiler, from knowing nothing, it necessitates a lot of reading and investigation ....whether this research is targeted at safety or not matters not...the proponent picks it up through the process. In other words to go from being clueless to being ready to build generally involves enough self education that the inquisitive gets the finer points of safely designing and construction (unless they're a Darwin award candidate, and thats beyond our ability to stop).

There persist though a lot of misunderstanding about the dangers and where they come from. John, the danger isn't the 2500 lbs, thats simply a force (ie a boiler under steam has magnitudes more potential energy than a boiler under hydrostatic test yet both have at 2500 lbs force)....the force becomes lethal if there is enough energy to maintain the force for some length of time/distance.... In the case of a boiler theres a lot of potential energy stored as heat in the water and ready to instantly release on a sudden pressure drop. 

As far as I'm concerned, its all good if it makes people more aware of the issues and dangers.....unlike most things we make where the risks are operational within our four walls (leaving the chuck key in), a boiler is not an operational risk, its potentially a risky product to leave our shop and can involve innocent bystanders are exposed if we are negligent. A small boiler at 125 psi letting go isn't like getting burned by some steam, its a small stick of dynamite. Very different from leaving the chuck key in, imo


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## BobWarfield (Jul 2, 2008)

Here is a fascinating paper for the very safety-minded audience we have here:

http://lib.hpu.edu.cn/comp_meeting/PROGRESS IN SAFETY SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY VOL.V1/1369.doc

Nice little model to estimate relative explosive power of your boiler if things go south. I set up a spreadsheet to do the calculations they offer and plugged in parameters similar to my desired boiler:

4" diameter by 10" long
It blows when it is 7/8 full of water (the saturated water being much more dangerous than the steam on top)
188 psi (well above anything I'd remotely want to run at--assumes the relief valve is not working and we heated the little sucker way too hot until it blew

This model says that's 1/4 stick of dynamite right there. An M80 from my childhood, 1/4 lb of TNT, or not quite half a pound of gunpowder. If you leave the pressure and the relative water to steam ratio the same, the model scales well with volume.

Just thought you'd like to know!

Best,

BW


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## Circlip (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm surprised Sandy hasn't made a comment on this one John B? Oh dear, this one is a case of wishes and capabilities.
 A few years ago on this side of the pond, many of the "Depot" type stores were doing a bouncing trade supplying the "Do it yerself" dummies. "What is your hobby?" Do it meself. Fortunately (Although some still try it on) legislation was passed so that a certificate is required (even by people that had been doing it for a living) to prove to the owners/insurance companies that the person who had installed a gas appliance was qualified to do so and followed ALL the regulations. Up until that time any idiot could do this whether they were capable or not and boy oh boy have I seen some c4ap and I'm not CORGI registered (Qualification). A few years later, the sparks (Electricians) got jealous and got the same sort of thing passed for electrical installations. Luckily I installed ALL my own services before this became the law. Why? Cos I'm not a qualified gas fitter or sparks but would put my work up for inspection by the relevent authorities without fear of rejection. (Had to do this when I laid some drains to connect to main system,and was complimented by the inspector who had a quick look at all the other services I'd put in and was dumbfounded that I "Wasn't in the trade"
 OK, boilers, make yer own? why not. Make bits for someone else? Are you prepared to get TEST CERT'S for ALL the metals you're going to use? No, you're not allowed "Look what I found at my local scrap dealer" Cos in the event of a BANG, someone from the insurance company is going to ask for them. How many people do we trust to help us make a potential bomb? And before you jump in Ranger, SHHHHH and chill. We're not trying to nanny you, just trying to ensure you reach your 15th birthday and many more with ALL your bits intact. Full size boiler makers (There are still one or two left over here) don't make all their own fittings etc but there is TOTAL traceability of parts. Would I make my own? YES, but I would make sure that it was PROPERLY tested and certified before eventhinking about warming it up.
 Play safely, Regards Ian.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 2, 2008)

Sandy is having personal issues at the moment, so I would suggest no one tries contact. He will be back when ready.

John


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## chuck foster (Jul 2, 2008)

bogs, if you happen to chat to sandy give him our best.

chuck


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## BobWarfield (Jul 13, 2008)

Fellas, FWIW, I am tending towards the water in tube designs. This puts the high pressure bits inside the firebox, which seems like an extra margin of safety if it goes *BANG*. 

I really like the Yarrow-style marine boilers, though it would be a lot of trouble to make one. They seem less fussy than the monotubes because they can contain a bit more water. A monotube is what ranger is building. They're dead easy. The Yarrow will take a bit of doing. I'm finding that stainless tubing is cheaper than copper, so that'll likely be the material of choice. Will need to make a tubing bender as well, so I won't start the boiler until I've got my mill CNC"d and we're done with TB2 in all likelihood.

FWIW, here is a link to a site that has a very cool Yarrow boiler for a steam launch:

http://www.steamboating.de/list/li-main.html

I'm not planning anything nearly that big! Mine will likely be a desktop size. Suppose it was something similar that fit in a firebox 6"x6"x6" or so. I may draw up some 3D models of it beforehand. It'll be a good silver soldering project for sure.

I'm thinking of a boiler similar to that Yarrow with some sort of alcohol burner arrangement like what Firebird has been fooling with and a vertical stack. I think that should work out well.

FYI, John Bentley (The Engineman) also has a Yarrow-style design on his steam tugboat. Apparently water in tube boilers were more common in Marine and stationary applications than in locomotives.

Cheers,

BW


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## Dick L. (Jul 13, 2008)

Hi Bob, have you seen this Roberts design built to power one of Ray HasBrouck's engine designs? The boiler looks similar to a Yarrow. 
           Dick

http://plsntcov.8m.com/stmbot.htm


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## Bernd (Jul 13, 2008)

I've just read the all of the posts on the boiler building subject. I have not built a boiler yet, but wish to build one in the future. I've read many books and magazine articles on the subject. Also my dad has built several boilers to run steam engines on. I am by no means an expert on the subject.

What I would like to add to this discusion is the fact that water under pressure boils at a much higher temperature than 212 degrees F. So when the boiler ruptures the pressure drops and the super heated water turns to steam instantly, thus a explosion. 

I saw a TV program of people in an under water habitat that had a hole in the floor for divers to enter and exit. I could not understand how the water did not come in until they explained that the vessel was under a certain pressure ( I do not recall at what pressure they were). But what caught my attention was that they had to use a thermometer to check the temp of the water for there coffee because the water would boil at 350 degrees F.  Way to hot to drink.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here. 

Bernd


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## Bogstandard (Jul 13, 2008)

You are exactly right on that assumption Bernt.

It also works the other way around, mountain climbers will boil water, but because of the reduced atmospheric pressure, it is only warm when it is boiling.

John


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## bentprop (Jul 13, 2008)

I haven't had the courage to get involved in team builds,and because of my geographical location I probably never will,but I certainly would NEVER EVER use any boiler I didn't know the history of without a very thorough pressure test.
Divided's video is a timely reminder to be cautious with anything involving pressure vessels.
There is also the small matter of cost.Have you seen the price of copper sheet (or tube,for that matter)?
Even a small boiler can easily run into $300-$400 in materials.Being heavy,it will also be costly in shipping anywhere.
Sorry to rain on your parade,Bob,but I think you may have to go it alone on that one.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 13, 2008)

Bernd  said:
			
		

> I saw a TV program of people in an under water habitat that had a hole in the floor for divers to enter and exit. I could not understand how the water did not come in until they explained that the vessel was under a certain pressure ( I do not recall at what pressure they were). But what caught my attention was that they had to use a thermometer to check the temp of the water for there coffee because the water would boil at 350 degrees F.  Way to hot to drink.
> 
> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.
> 
> Bernd



The pressure inside the diving bell or habitat would be determined by the depth the divers are at. 33ft of water =14.5 psi or one atmosphere. so 99 ft of water would be three times the pressure as compared to the air at the surface. 
If one looked at charts the pressure could be determined by the 350 degree boiling point. 
regardless of the details point well taken. 
Tin


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## BobWarfield (Jul 14, 2008)

Thank you Dick L., that's quite a nice Yarrow-style boiler.

I'm going to quit posting to this thread though. It's too depressing. Should have been renamed "The exploding boiler train wreck thread."  ;D

Cheers,

BW


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## tel (Jul 14, 2008)

Don't give up on it Bob, I've built and steamed a bunch of boilers over the last 30 years & I'm still around to tell the tale. Just a matter of procedure really, same as anything else.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 14, 2008)

I think you have the wrong end of the stick Bob.

No one is saying 'don't make one', the general consensus is do make one, but do everything yourself, rather than relying on someone elses build qualities.

John


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## Circlip (Jul 14, 2008)

And just to rain on your parade a bit more Bob, a watertube boiler is potentially far more dangerous than a Flash steamer.
 Regards  Ian


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## Divided He ad (Jul 14, 2008)

I have to agree with John here Bob.

I have never made a boiler, but will do so some time soon. 
If I used one of my manufactured ones (Mamod/SEL) I would expect them to be reasonably safe (as long as I had kept them well serviced) But I would wonder and worry a little about the home made boiler that I had little to do with. I would worry even more about the possible consequences of a failure to a boiler that I had supplied to another party!

My posting of the video was not to say don't! It was just to say do it safely.... Not crank down the safety valve and use a blowtorch etc etc.... 
You can and probably have watched and read it.

I think if you look back over this thread there is a mine of very usefull information about boilers, building and their testing etc.... IMO it has been very informative and will be referred to (all the bickering removed and just the usefull facts kept) when I take up the boiler building challenge. ;D



Ralph.


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## Cedge (Jul 14, 2008)

It might be redundant, but I'll second John and Ralph on their comments. No one has yet to say building a boiler is a bad idea, in and of itself. The main concern is the team build aspect. There are just too many safety variables to such an endeavor for comfort, from a group stand point. It's blindly trusting the unknown skill levels and knowledge of overly eager participants that has been the major point of concern voiced throughout the thread. I'd really hate to learn that I'm the reason they call her the "Widow Warfield". 

My advise is to educate yourself very well on the subject, FIRST and THEN build one. Many a successful boiler has been built in the past and many more will be built in the future. 

Steve 
Who is more than a little confused by the apparent anger caused by prudent concerns being voiced for the safety and well being of Bob and other board members.


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## Bernd (Jul 14, 2008)

Ralph: That video showed me 2 problems right off the bat. One, I didn't see a pressure gage. Two, you don't use a torch to heat a boiler. It was heating in only one spot. Right in the middle. This would weaken that part of the boiler. Would a proper burner under that boiler have caused it not to blow up? I won't know. Many variables. The persons that made that video were very irresponsible in what they did as far as I'm concerned.

Bob: In our sue happy society your best friend could turn on you if you made a mistake on something like a boiler and it exploded injuring his family. One of the problems I see in a team boiler build is a person using scrap material of unknown origin. For example, if somebody used a piece of pipe that had been previously used to contain pressure. That pipe may be unusable due to small fractures. You use it to build a boiler. Then going through several heating and cooling cycles could make the boiler weaker. The next time you fire it up, BANG. If and when I build a boiler I would only use new material for construction. I see the problem of a team build as a quality control issue of material used. 

Bernd


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## Bogstandard (Jul 14, 2008)

Bernd,

Using a blowtorch isn't dangerous, if used in the correct manner. In fact before gas fired ceramic came along, and after self pressurising liquid burners, the main source was just to wack a blowtorch into the flue. 
In fact I used to use a generally accepted method of boiler testing using a blowtorch instead of a water pump. But I will not give details about that, as it could be dangerous in the wrong heads.

John


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## Bernd (Jul 14, 2008)

John,

I would have thought that using a blow torch such as they did and heating only the middle of the boiler would not be a wise way of doing it. But, as they say, live and learn. Thanks John. 

Bernd


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## Bogstandard (Jul 15, 2008)

Bernd.

Conduction and convection come into play on a boiler. The heat will not remain localised for very long. 
In fact I use conduction to good effect when silver soldering, you can get the solder to flow where you want it.

You are perfectly correct in asking questions about such things, I ask my mentor things all the time. You are never to old to learn something new. In fact, young Ranger shows me things in his posts that I have never seen before, so you are never too young to teach old dogs new tricks. Everyone knows something that can be of use to someone else.

John


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## kvom (Jul 15, 2008)

> It also works the other way around, mountain climbers will boil water, but because of the reduced atmospheric pressure, it is only warm when it is boiling.


I have trekked at high altitudes in both Nepal and Tibet. To cook at these altitudes it is useful to have a pressure cooker, which in some respects is similar to a boiler. I do know that my grandmother's pressure cooker was built like a bank vault, with a simple pressure relief valve on top.

I have no desire or intention to build a boiler.


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