# 3 BALL GOVERNOR



## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2010)

In response to Crankshafters request----A few years ago I designed, built, and posted a thread about building a 2 ball governor. I am posting the link that will get you (hopefully) a download of it all in .pdf files.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nw4ryqtqdu5/BRIANS FLYBALL GOVERNOR.zip
 Someone later requested that I design a 3 ball version of it. I did, and they posted their finished project. I can't remember who it was now. I have never built it (the 3 ball version) myself. Only a few of the parts change. I am going to make one now, so I will post about it as I go.---Brian






View attachment BRIANS FLYBALL GOVERNOR-3 BALLS-DRAWING.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2010)

These are the parts I am working on today---The yoke with the round part on is used on the bottom, the one on top is different in that it doesn't have the round part on it . I am making two at one time here---I got a tad confused and started out thinking that the top and bottom yokes were identical.---They're not!!! I'm kinda making this up as I go along, machining wise, so I have turned all the diameters first, but left everything attached to the main peice of 1 1/4" round steel, to give myself something to hold onto when I take it over to the mill.



















View attachment BOTTOM YOKE-3 BALL-DRAWING.PDF


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## johnthomp (Aug 7, 2010)

and ill be watching evry move from over my mentors shoulder verry closely as i have just started with the 2 ball governor 
  just one question before i start with the school of hard knocks is it possible to drill and tap the ball bearings out of a large ballrace or are they too hard as i have a lot of those left from replacing the front bearings on my car the other week just thought id save them for this project 
  by the way i loved your last thread on the two ball governor especialy the video of it working 
 i cant wait to see this build and wish the best of luck 
 regards john


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2010)

John---Don't even think about drilling and tapping a bearing ball. That way lies heartache. Buy some brass balls from McMaster Carr.


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## johnthomp (Aug 7, 2010)

cheers fella i might just get some brass ones from the local gun shop he sells them in packs of 30 for £5 for use in catapult's atleast ill have a few to go at if i get it wrong 
  :big:
regards john


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## cidrontmg (Aug 7, 2010)

If you heat bearing balls to cherry red, keep there for some hours, and let cool slowly, they can be drilled just fine. I put my bearing balls to a tin can (ex-sardines), into the central heating oven (works with wood), and let them stay there overnight. Btw, it´s 00.30 hours atm, it´s 38C out- and inside my shop, so I won´t be doing that another time, for prolly some months. But I´ve got plenty of soft balls left...

I´ve drilled + tapped holes to lots of balls from bearings when I´ve made ball handles for various things. Here´s some I made to my lathe: the top slide (G. Thomas mod) and carriage locks. Though a bearing ball, the big one of the carriage lock (24 mm) never actually was in a bearing. But it was also glass hard. It got the same heat treatment, and afterwards was a joy to drill and tap, as were the rest. And many others


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 7, 2010)

And how many did you drill and tap for 1/8" diameter threads????


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## johnthomp (Aug 7, 2010)

nice idea and method but i think ill try that another time might try and anneal some balls while ive got the wood fired furnace going with a shovel of coal it stays hot all night but i think ill settle for brass ones for me first attempt at this mate 

brian i am pleased to announce that ive finaly made a viable pattern for the main frame of the 2 ball governor and it works in the kids sandpit all i need to do now is get it cast although ive done it 1/3 smaller than the drawings coz i stuffed up trying to convert the imperial measurements to metric :wall: im still going to carry on with it though as its me first time building a governor and i dont particularly wish to spend another 8 hours straight filing down another lump of maple floorboard 
  best regards john


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## doc1955 (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm thinking as Brain either buy some or turn up some brass balls but to go through annealing process and drill a bearing ball seems like a lot of extra work. 
But then I some times get some thing in my head and I just have to prove to myself I can do it myself. :big: :big:


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## cidrontmg (Aug 7, 2010)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> And how many did you drill and tap for 1/8" diameter threads????



Well, none. I don´t have 1/8" taps. But I did several for 3mm. In 8 and 15 mm balls. In the picture, they´re 15 mm balls, all have tapped 3mm holes, and two have 3mm screw stubs in them. And there are many more.
I just chucked them in a 3 jaw, started with a center drill, drilled and tapped. Put in a 3mm threaded stub, and (slightly) polished. 
Even so, I think brass balls would look nicer in a governor. In a ball handle, steel balls might last longer without dents.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Timely thread. I've been thinking about a governor the last few days. No idea what I'll do with it...but I think they look cool. So I'll be watching.


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## johnthomp (Aug 8, 2010)

just a thought if i had 3 balls flying round in appose to 2 woult the governor require a stronger return spring in respect of the extra weight under cantrafeugal force to get a little more concistancy from the action as its run at different speeds


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

John---The whole reason for using a governor is to maintain a constant speed. Not to "Run at different speeds". What that final speed is will be determined by the strength of the spring, the weight and quantity of balls, the speed the governor is driven at, and the length of the levers involved. My original 2 ball design only moved a small peice of 1/4" diameter rod with a steam port in it back and forth in a guide, so it didn't have to generate very much "power" to move that small peice of rod. This 3 ball unit may ultimately be used to hold an exhaust valve open on an I.C. engine, so I want it to be able to generate a bit more power.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

I hope you fellows notice that the 3 drawings I have posted keep changing and evolving as I make the parts. They are now shown in their final form, and the parts are finished. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I got a little confused and thought that the top and bottom yokes were identical. Thinking this, I went ahead and roughed out two bottom yokes on the lathe. On closer examination, I found that the top and bottom yokes were different, ---The top yoke which gets soldered to the stempost didn't need any round part on it, so my second machining operation was to machine off the unneeded round part from one end.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

I then cut off about 2 1/2" of the 1 1/4" shaft I started out with (still attached to the parts) and walked it over to the milling machine where I set it up vertically using one of my home made V-blocks in my milling vice. I drilled out the three 3/16" diameter holes at the end of the arm slots, and used a 3/16" two flute end mill to plunge cut and open the slots to the outside of the peice. I then set up my boring head set for a 0.9" radius and cut away the outside of the body in 3 places.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

With that operation finished, I flipped the part onto its side and using another homemade V-block I drilled and reamed the six 3/32" diameter holes. I then put the part back in the lathe and turned the 1/8" radius on the ends of the arms. (If I did this again, I would have put the rads on before the milling operation, to avoid all the interupted cuts.)


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

I didn't take any pictures of drilling and reaming the part in my lathe for the 3/16" center hole, nor did I show cutting the outermost peice off with my bandsaw. I would have parted it off, but it was out quite far from the chuck jaws, and I didn't want a disaster at this stage of the game. I did part off the second peice which was still attached to the 1 1/4" diameter shaft.
 The parts were then cleaned up a bit on my 1" belt sander, and Voila'---The upper and lower yokes are finished.


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## bearcar1 (Aug 8, 2010)

Terrific looking set of drawings Brian, and thank you for sharing with us. How was it you were able to index the slots and the large radius cutout between the arms? 


BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 8, 2010)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Terrific looking set of drawings Brian, and thank you for sharing with us. How was it you were able to index the slots and the large radius cutout between the arms?
> 
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Jim--I'm not exactly sure what you mean. My vice has a swivel base with a degree scale on it, and the 3 large outer radii are directly in line with the 3/16" slots. Of course, nothing is simple, and the center of rotation of the vice was offset quite a bit from the center of the darn part, so every time I swivelled the vice I had to "Find center" again on the part. Perhaps If I did it again I would use my rotary table with the 3 jaw chuck mounted on it. That way the centers would stay constant and save me a lot of time finding center between machining operations. Is that what you meant?---Brian


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## bearcar1 (Aug 8, 2010)

Oh yes, now I understand it, Duh! It never occurred to me that you were using a swivel vise. Gees. I agree with you about using a RT for this piece, yours turned out rather well I might add. It is going to be exciting to see the finished product in use on your engine. Thanks,

BC1
Jim


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Those are good looking parts. This is interesting.


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## Cedge (Aug 8, 2010)

Brian
Glad to see you working on this project. The governor on the Victorian Engine gave up the ghost by self destructing the "lower" pivot points. I always wondered if I'd made them a wee bit too thin....(grin). Something quite similar to your design is going to replace it, so it's nice to have you plowing the ground ahead of time.

Seems once I installed the new vapor foam carb, the engine was no longer fighting a mixture problem and will now literally run away once it's warmed up. It produced enough force to crack the hinge points. Luckily the expansion arms held or things might have gotten a little exciting. 

Now... I need ya to speed things up a bit, as the engine is due to be at a show in about 3 weeks....(grin). Nice work!!

Steve


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## lathe nut (Aug 9, 2010)

Brian, thanks for another great project and the photo's of how to, so good to see you back in action, thanks again, Lathe Nut


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 9, 2010)

See posts number 16 and 17 in this thread for the details of the upper and lower 3 ball governor arms.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3559.0

The drawings of the top and bottom 3 ball yoke have changed from what was shown in the old thread. Reason being, that when I went to machine them using the original drawings shown in the old thread, I realized that I had designed something that would be difficult to build. Not wrong, but difficult to machine. (I never built the 3 ball version---only the two ball.)

Everything else stays the same as the details of the 2 ball governor which are in the download.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

Tonight I made a start on the upper arms for the 3 ball governor. I am using a peice of cold rolled 5/16" diameter, because thats what I had. First step was to turn down the ends to 1/8" diameter and thread them to #5-40 unc with a die in my lathe. I purposely made the threads 1/2" long which is 3/16" longer than the .313 called for in the drawing. I did this because I like to use a file while the part is still in the lathe to put a bit of taper on the end of the turned section, so that the die will start easier. I will trim them to exact length in a later step. This is something that I have learned by making parts to "exact length" and then screwing up the first 1/8" of thread trying to get the die to start properly. I recently purchased a small 3 jaw chuck to mount on my rotary table during my gear cutting exercise, so now I'm hoping to use it when I put the flats on 4 sides of these round parts.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

Okay---I set the rotary table with the 3 jaw chuck up on the mill table and set the degree scale to "0" (I was using the top edge of one of the rotary table clamps as a "witness mark" to locate the "0" mark, because you can set "0" mark on the table anywhere in a 360 degree circle. Then I started feeding the 1/2" milling cutter down in 0.010" increments and set the table stops so I could "mill to the line" along the left to right axis. I also set the digital scale on my spindle to "0" when the cutter was just "kissing" the top of the steel, so that I would know when my total depth of cut was reached.---One side completed on the 1/8" square section.--And please don't warn me about holding a milling cutter in a chuck.--I am aware of all the inherent dangers.---If you want to be safe, then don't you do it.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

With the first cut completed, I rotated the rotary table 90 degress, locked the clamps, and machined the second side.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

Then on to the third side---


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

And on to the fourth side---I was getting a bit concerned by now, because the cross section of the part being machined was growing steadily smaller and smaller as I progressed, and I was hoping it wouldn't bend from the forces applied to it by the milling cutter. It didn't. Fourth side finished.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

I reset the table stops, reset the digital travel indicator on my spindle feed to zero on the large diameter (again), and proceed on the first of the four larger surfaces.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

That went fine, so I rotated the table 90 degrees and milled the second side-


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

Then on to the third---


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

And finally to the fourth and final side. It went well!!! I have never used a rotary table like this before, so I was looking foreward to the experience. It sure as blazes beats trying to do a whole lot of set-ups in the milling vice.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 10, 2010)

A final note---I know that there is a lot of "stick out" beyond the jaws of the chuck. If the part had been slightly larger in diameter, I would have set up the other peice of tooling that looks similar to a lathe tailstock and placed the pointed end of it in a c'bore in the end of the part to "steady it up" while milling. As it turned out, I got away without using it, which proves either that I didn't need it, or more likely that the Lord takes pity on fools and amateur machinists!!!


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 11, 2010)

Kinda looks like Inky Dinky spider, doesn't it. I had design work to keep me busy this morning, but ran out of work at noon, so I spent the afternoon in my machine shop. I finished the other 2 upper arms (Love that rotary table!!!) and drilled and tapped three 5/8" diameter brass balls I had left over from my first governor a couple of years ago. (Minimum order of 5 at the time.) At least I have proven to myself that the drawing of the upper arms is correct. Next thing will be to machine 3 lower arms.


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## lathe nut (Aug 11, 2010)

Brain it does look like a spider, best looking one that I ever saw, Lathe Nut


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## Blogwitch (Aug 12, 2010)

I know it is a bit late into this post, but as Brian has just drilled his balls (no sarcasm please), and it has already been mentioned at the beginning, but I will just mention that I drill ball bearings a fair amount.

I don't go to great troubles about heating and cooling. Just using a couple of firebricks as a makeshift hearth, gang 'em up and heat to cherry red (I have found bright orange under fluorescent light to be ideal), then put another firebrick over the top to allow to cool down a little slower, or you could drop them into very dry sand and let them cool for an hour.

Yesterday, I processed 8 X &#8541;" hardened steel ones, and drilled and tapped them 4 @ 4mm and 4 @ 4BA with no troubles at all, all to nearly full diameter depth. It is just like working with unhardened silver steel (drill rod), a bit tough, but do use plenty of high pressure tapping fluid for drilling and tapping (only use HSS tooling, NOT carbon steel).

The hard bit is today's job, removing the black scale off the balls to get them back to original lustre.

They work out very cheap if you buy say 50 in a pack, and to me, they look a little more realistic on a ball governor, but that is just me.

Sorry to interrupt this very good post.




Bogs


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks Bogs. Everything I have read prior to this argued against trying to drill bearings, Even after heating and annealing them. It said they were still too tough and would eat taps and desroy drills. I have fallen into the trap of "Heard it on the internet but didn't try it myself." Sorry about that. I stand corrected.----BRIAN


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## mklotz (Aug 12, 2010)

It's not worth my time to mess around annealing bearing balls. ENCO sells carbon steel balls very cheaply...

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=240-2439&PMPXNO=4837960


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks Marv---I like the shiny brass balls, but for someone on a tighter budget, or for those who prefer the grey steel look, they would be just the ticket.!!!----=Brian


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## mklotz (Aug 12, 2010)

For brass balls, you'll have to go to MSC...

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1649484&PMT4NO=91575952

I realize you've already got what you need, Brian. I'm adding this info to this thread for the benefit of North American folks who may read it in the future.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2010)

Here is the drawing of the lower arm for the 3 ball governor, reposted with no changes except for a couple of added reference dimensions. I can certify it as correct now, having actualy built the part from this drawing. And--I had to sneak in at least one shot of the rotary table set-up machining the arm from 3/8" brass round stock. Man, I don't know how I lived without that rotary table and chuck combination!!!










View attachment LOWER BALL ARM-3 BALL.PDF


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## radfordc (Aug 12, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It's not worth my time to mess around annealing bearing balls. ENCO sells carbon steel balls very cheaply...
> 
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=240-2439&PMPXNO=4837960



Dang...those things are still over 60C Rockwell hardness!


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2010)

And here we have it all assembled on a tenporary stempost, in both raised and lowered positions. I don't plan on doing any more to this now. Someday in the future it is going to hold open the exhaust valve on an I.C. engine to create a hit and miss action. What did I prove here?---Well, nothing much, except that the drawings are correct, and the 3 ball governor can be built from the drawings. I hadn't machined anything for a while, and it filled in a couple of otherwise boring days.---Brian


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## Blogwitch (Aug 12, 2010)

radfordc  said:
			
		

> Dang...those things are still over 60C Rockwell hardness!



Seeing as how Brian has now finished with this post (unless more questions come along), this is what the heat treated bearings look like, after treating as I told you in my post.

Here are some softened ones in comparison to an original. Can you tell the difference?







And here they are after drilling, tapping and polishing. The 4BA are finished, and I am part way thru the 4mm. They take about 10 minutes each to get back to lustre, first a brass wire brush on the buffing machine, followed by a hard sisal mop with heavy cutting soap (these first two remove the black scale), then a stitched mop with heavy cutting soap, and finally an unstitched mop with a very fine buffing compound.






I don't re-harden them, so they will never regain that super high lustre, but I think that these are acceptable.


Bogs


I forgot to mention, you do lose something like 0.002" off the overall diameter, as when you heat them up, the surface oxidises (the black scale) and when you remove the oxidation, they are smaller.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 12, 2010)

That looks real good Brian.
It's on my 'looks like fun to do' list.
I also appreciate the additional information in this thread about using ball bearings.

When you were milling the arms, would it have been advantageous to put a machinist jack or some other support under the arm for milling?


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 12, 2010)

Zee---I'm not really sure. I'm "feeling my way along" with this whole machining business. I didn't notice any undue deflection in the parts while I was machining them, but on the steel parts I was only cutting 0.010 at a time with the side of the end mill. I was feeding the end mill parallel to the long axis of the part, not crossways.On the brass arms, I got really bold and cut a full 0.090 depth and it didn't seem to want to deflect. I think the proper way would have been to support the free end with the part I mentioned before that looks like the tailstock from a lathe. However, these parts are just so darn small that I didn't bother. I'm not sure a machinists jack would have helped, because the force applied from the cutter wasn't down towards the table, but rather sideways as I fed the cutter along the length of the part.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks Brian.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 18, 2010)

I've been doing a lot of thinking on how to marry the 3 ball governor to my Webster engine to make it a true hit and miss engine. In my previous expererience with the two ball governor, the pins in the lever fitted into a groove in the bottom yoke which was constantly revolving. It seemed to work just fine, but I can't help but think that there must have been a lot of wear on these stationary pins. I expect to see a lot more friction when the governor is used on an internal combustion engine. To eliminate the wear on these engagement pins, I have made a much wider slot in the bottom flyball yoke, and put a pair of 6mm sealed ball bearings on the lever. Ultimately, I am looking at putting an external adjustment on the governor which will let me vary the load on the governor compression spring thus changing the engine speed while the governor is running. Of course, this will have a 'feed-back" effect thru the lever and the bearings, so they have to be more durable and more anti-friction than the two ball governor which I used on the steam engine a couple of years ago.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 18, 2010)

Thinking---thinking----


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## tel (Aug 18, 2010)

That should work Brian, as long as the governor can overcome the spring tension on the exhaust valve. An easier way might simply be to make the pivoted arm short out the spark plug.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 18, 2010)

Tel--trouble with shorting out the sparkplug is that the valves still function and you end up "deadheading" a compression load in the cylinder, which would really cut down on the coast time.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 18, 2010)

Take a good look at the size of the exhaust valve spring on this engine. A good size bumblebee landing on it would hold the valve open.


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## tel (Aug 18, 2010)

Good point, it was just a thought. Looks like it should be fine.


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 19, 2010)

Here we have the govenor in its final form with all the required linkages. There is more information on it, but any further posts will be over in my thread about redesigning the Webster engine as a hit and miss. Those miter gears do actually mesh--Its just that I don't have the gears yet, and there is insufficient information in the gear catalogue for me to model them correctly.


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## Cedge (Aug 19, 2010)

Brian
Only one thing left to add to your design. You'll need a spring and adjuster collar to make it all work. Easy to do if you just place it all on the central shaft. The spinning balls won't collapse all by themselves, trust me....LOL

Steve


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 19, 2010)

Steve--Thanks. Yes, I know that, but I haven't shown the spring yet. Springs are a rather nasty thing to model, and I'm still not 100% sure of all my finished sizes yet.


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