# Boiler Build For American LaFrance Engine



## steamin (Feb 10, 2011)

Greeting, I have a thread started about the La France engine build under "A Work In Progress". What I would like to share here is some thoughts and feelings about my approach to the boiler for the La France. I did read through many of the postings under this topic and they were very encouraging about what I have in mind.

Basically, I am building the boiler from "Pressure Vessel Quality" materials except for the flue tubes. They will be copper. The reason for the all steel boiler is my skills for TIG welding is far better than my skills for silver soldering such a massive assembly and having everything stay in alignment. 

The first picture shows a piece of 0.500" by 0.032" wall thickness that has been swaged into a piece of 0.250" thick steel that represents the flue tube sheets in my boiler. The hole in the 1/4" thick stock was reamed with a #1 taper pin reamer. The larger diameter of the hole would be on the none pressure side. The second picture shows the assembly next to a punch with the same amount of taper as the hole in the 1/4" stock. Next to the punch is a series of hardened steel balls that I had on hand; 0.625" dia., 0.875" dia., and 1.062" diameter. I used these balls in secession starting with the smaller ball first to flare the end of the tube outward. Then a small ball peen hammer was used to flatten the copper down to the surface of the 1/4" plate. I left 0.100" protruding from the 1/4" plate for this process. I do believe this process will work for my flue tube installation unless someone has any reservations.

The technical hurdle at this point is the punch. It was a bear to remove and I will not be able to remove it the way I did for this experiment when installing the flue tubes in the boiler assembly. So it is back to the drawing board on the punch. I am thinking along the lines of an expandable tool of some sorts ???

So please if you have any thoughts or question, fire away !


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## GWRdriver (Feb 10, 2011)

Hi steamin,
I don't have any reservations, but I do think it's worth noting that historically (and in the present day) copper tubes in steel boilers has been a very common combination which has always worked well. Also, historically (and presently) copper tubes were simply rolled (ie, expanded) in to straight reamed holes without further treatment and this too has worked well. Some builders follow this with silver soldering the flues but this is a matter of personal preference and the larger percentage of builders don't. If weeps occur the remedy is to re-roll the weepy flue. That being the case, for the labor involved, I would question whether flanging over as you proposed has a benefit beyond simple rolling in.


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## steamin (Feb 10, 2011)

Sir Harry, I do appreciate your comments. I was wondering if the flanging over of the end of the tube might be gilding the lillie so to speak. The only reason I chose to use a taper hole to swage into was that I do not have a tube roller that small available to me. So I thought why not expand a little bit into a taper hole. I guess I will put on the ole thinking cap and see if I can come up with something like you have suggested and go with the reamed straight hole concept.

Thanks again ;D


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## xo18thfa (Feb 10, 2011)

I've thought about trying it this way too. I've heard guys say it works. Bill Harris had a method to use rubber washers compressed with a nut and bolt to expand tubes into straight reamed holes. 

I would think there is more then one way to skin the cat.

A steel boiler experiment is in my future. I appreciate you taking time to do this write-up.

Thanks, Bob




"gilding the lillie" (??)


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## jthulin (Feb 10, 2011)

Would someone mind describing what a tube roller is and how it works?

Thanks


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## te_gui (Feb 10, 2011)

I can attest to Bill Harris's rubber washer method. When I expanded my tubes you could actually see the finish marks left by the reamer in the tube sheet holes, transferred into the I.D. of the copper tube. I have done probably 50 tubes this way and only had one leaker which was easily fixed by expanding it a little more.

Brian


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## steamin (Feb 10, 2011)

So I am guessing that some facet washers were stacked together with a nut and washer on either side and they were squeezed until there was no more to squeeze ???? The copper tube I have is half hard and may take something more rigid to really seal the tube in the tube sheet.

There are 2 pictures of a tube roller for 1/2" ID copper tubing. There are 3 tapered steel rollers captured in the body of the mechanism. A shaft runs length wise through the main body. The shaft has a mating taper in contact with the 3 rollers. The roller portion is placed inside the flue. The shaft is slowly turned by hand. The rollers are on a slight angle so as the shaft is turned the rollers turn and expand inside the flue tube and the main body rotates inside the flue tube. There is a steel collar that keeps the main body in place as the process proceeds.

I had to generate the outer shell of the boiler so I could mount the frame to build the suspension. When I get back to the boiler build I'll post some pictures.

"Gild the lily" is an old phrase pertaining to doing something in excess or going over board or doing more than what is necessary to accomplish a task.


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## jthulin (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks Larry for the pictures and description


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## xo18thfa (Feb 12, 2011)

Here is Bill Harris's method with a test pressure vessel for practice. This picture is from his 1.5" scale Steam Roller plan book. The rod that compresses the rubber washers is 3/8" diameter, turned and threaded for 1/4 x 28. Length, as needed.

{image gone}


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## steamin (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Bob, Thanks a lot. I do appreciate it. I will give it a try.


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## xo18thfa (Feb 12, 2011)

steamin  said:
			
		

> Hi Bob, Thanks a lot. I do appreciate it. I will give it a try.



Sometime this year I want to build the boiler Harris did for his steam roller. Purely for experiment and practice welding. It is from 4" Sch 40 steel pipe with 8 each, 5/8" diameter copper flues. I am going to try your method and Harris', 4 flues each.

Thanks for showing your method. Bob


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## steamer (Feb 12, 2011)

Hey guys,

Lets not post pictures from other copywrite sources OK......I suggest you take that on down please...Sorry.
If you can't let me know.

If you want to convey that idea then sketch it up yourself and post it.....but no copies....

Dave


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## xo18thfa (Feb 13, 2011)

steamer  said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> Lets not post pictures from other copywrite sources OK......I suggest you take that on down please...Sorry.
> If you can't let me know.
> ...



WILCO, done


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## steamer (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks Guys....

I'm looking forward to this thread.... ;D  I got a soft spot for pumpers!

Dave


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## Jasonb (Feb 13, 2011)

The catalogue pages on this suppliers site have cross sectional drawings of teh expanders which may help anyone wanting to build their own

http://www.wicksteed.com/Products.aspx?catid=1

Steamer have you seen the rest of the build of this "pumper" over on Smokstak some superb work.

J


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## steamin (Feb 13, 2011)

Sir JasonB, thank you so very much for the catalog link. It has given me one point of very valuable information. The tube OD I was planning to use is to large for the thickness of my tube sheets. I was going to use .500" OD copper tube with a wall thickness of 0.032" in a .250" thick steel tube sheet. The chart for a "C" Type 900 Series has indicated that a .375" OD is the maximum one should go for the .250" thick tube sheet. The diagrams also show that the tube ends are flush with the non-pressure side of the tube sheet unless you do plan to bead the end of the tube. So, again I do appreciate the information.

I hope I am not confusing folks with my posting of this build on 3 different threads. Yes, I have been posting on Smokstak about this steam pumper since I started this project over 16 months ago and will continue to do so. I was also encouraged at the recent "Cabin Fever Expo" to share with you folks within this forum. So there is a thread of this build in the "A Work In Progress" section. I jumped over to this section because of "Boiler" specific questions that I had. I plan to keep the boiler build within the confines of this thread and will post the overall build in the other two threads that I have going.

I do appreciate your comments, support and interest.


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## Jasonb (Feb 13, 2011)

They do make expanders for projecting ends, have a look at the second one down, All the boilers I have seen with expanded tubes have a small projection but not flared out. Personally I can't see the point in flaring the ends with copper in a steel boiler, it won't add to the staying as the copper will have expanded more lengthways than the boiler barrel when its hot.

This thread shows a boiler being tubed.

J


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## steamer (Feb 13, 2011)

What an awesome build! Thanks for the direction Jason. 

 I really like your solutions to some of the part problems.  The lathe set up for the spokes is quite inspiring.

Keep it coming...I'm loving it.

Dave


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## steamin (Feb 13, 2011)

Hi JasonB, My only concern about a flue tube protruding, especially on the fire side, would be the end of the tube over heating and causing some damage to the tube. The protruding portion would not be in contact with the tube sheet which would act like a heat sink back to the water. In my way of thinking, flush, bead or no protrusion at all.

Jason, would you have any idea what the cost would be for a tube roller that I mentioned earlier or is that a taboo thing to do on this forum.

Dave, sure thing !


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 13, 2011)

No need to get a tube expander from the UK unless you live there. Google tube expander for US sources. McMaster & Carr has them but only down to 1/2" OD. 

Here is a link to US firm with an 800 number.
http://www.usaindustries.com/heat_condensers.htm

I drew 2 boilers for Shay locomotives with copper fire boxes and brass tubes that went to Australia. The detail inset shows the tube end rolled and belled at the firebox end. Steel ferrules also with a belled end were inserted to protect the tube ends from the the effects of hot gas. The boilers were built to the Board of Trade Rules of 1905 and 1907. 

Dan


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## Jasonb (Feb 13, 2011)

This should give an idea though they are not teh type c

http://seddonandblack.co.uk/boiler-tube-expanders/cat_301.html

I'm sure an e-mail to Wicksteed will get you a price and US dealer.

BTW did you see the amount of tubes in that video on Wicksteeds site :

J


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 13, 2011)

Jason,
Thanks for that link. That type-e expander has a very small head and will work better close to the edge of the tube sheet.

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 13, 2011)

Dan, I also thank you for the link to a US dealer for the tube roller. I will give them a call Monday AM. I just had a good feeling that I came to the right spot with my questions. You guys are awesome.

JasonB, I got so excited about the tube rollers that I forgot to mention thank you for the link to the Fowler engine construction. The boiler is one beautiful piece of workmanship.

Thanks again for all your help !


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## steamin (Feb 15, 2011)

I called the folks at USA Industries today. They are on central time. I quiz them about the Series 900 tube roller they had listed in their online catalog. That one is no longer available. They suggested the "AN" tube roller that is for 3/8" OD by 21 gauge. the cost was around $211.00. At this point, I may try something on my own.


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## xo18thfa (Feb 15, 2011)

Dumb question here: Do you weld the end plates with the flues in and expand after or weld in the plates and run the flues thru the holes to the other end?


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 15, 2011)

Larry,

They recomended 3/8 21 gauge flues but what questions did they ask?

My question is this, what is the distance between the tube sheets and what fuel are you planning for this vertical boiler?

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 15, 2011)

Thanks for the photos on the tube roller. It is similar to what I had in mind. I was thinking of trying to use tapered pins for the rollers and then machine a tapered rod to work in the middle of the cage as shown in the pictures. But a s I type this reply I am thinking the angle on the tapered pins may be to great. They are 1.2 degrees per side. ???? 

The folks at USA asked what size of tube I was going to use. They did not recommend any particular size or gauge. I selected the 3/8" diameter per a chart they had. It listed 3/8" OD as the largest diameter to use with a 1/4" thick tube sheet. I selected the 0032" thick wall instead of the other choice 0.062" wall.

To answer the other questions, the fire will be fired with wood and the flue tubes will be 4-1/2" from the grates.

Thanks for the help


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## steamin (Feb 16, 2011)

I forgot to add the distance between the the tube sheets is 5 and 1/8".


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 16, 2011)

Larry,
The only thing I have seen on the relationship between the length of the tube and the inner diameter of the tube is Martin Evans formula. I found it on the web with some other basic design information here:
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=34610

If we work the problem from the direction of the tube you selected the tube length for the middle of the range of 50 to 70 times the tube ID squared is 0.3112 X 65 which gives 6.29" as the tube length.

Tube data chart: http://www.usaindustries.com/tube_gauge_chart.htm

If we work the problem from the tube length of 5.125 then we divide that by 65 and take the square root to get 0.28" for the tube ID.

Now smaller tubes are more efficeint for heat transfer but they will plug up quicker, so does anyone have any data on a vertical wood fired boiler with say 5/16" ID tubes?

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 17, 2011)

Dan, great information ! I have heard of the L/D ratio. The details I never pursued. I have marveled at some model boiler makers that brag that they have just as many tubes in their boiler as the prototype and then can not understand why the boiler will not draw a draft. I will have to do some tube sheet layouts with the 5/16" OD and the 3/8" OD tubes. I am not so concerned with the amount of tubes, but would like a nice balance of firing time and boiler water capacity.

Firing time, I am not to concerned about because I am retired :big: Just some of my silly humor.

I do appreciate your input and what you have shared will make me a better model maker. Thanks


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 17, 2011)

Larry,
I have been thinking about boilers for quite some time now and collecting information and tools. I checked my 3 tube rollers and they are all commercial ones with straight rollers caged at a slight angle so they are skew on the tapered mandrill and are parallel to each other.

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 22, 2011)

Dan, I went to ebay and bought one of the flue tube expanders that you flagged out for me. It is the 3/8" x 17 ga.. It arrived today. The OD of the mandrel is 0.252". The rollers actually sit a little bit below this od. McMaster-Carr has some alloy 122 copper tubing in straight lengths. The size I am looking at is 3/8" od x 0.062" wall. This will give me a 0.245" id on the tubing. Now, my thought is this; dismantle the tube expander and turn the mandrel down about 0.008" to 0.010", just so it slides very nicely into the tubing. Reassemble and then roll away. Like I mention earlier, the rolls sit below the surface of the mandrel now and I think I can steal 0.004"-0.005" per side to make this tube expander work ! I thought I might go ahead and purchase a 6' length so I can turn the mandrel to the exact dimension I need. What do you think ?


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 22, 2011)

Larry, the only issue I can see is the rollers might fall out of the cage if the OD is reduced but the head on that roller is adjustable and it can slip over the end of the rollers to help keep them restrained.

I was thinking a 5/16" OD 20 gauge tube which should work with no modification to the roller. I can find them in short lengths in the UK and OZ but I can not find any hard drawn 5/16" copper tube in the US. May be another reader has a good source.

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 22, 2011)

HI Dan, I understand what you are saying ! I spent the last hour or so looking for 5/16" od copper tubing. Check out this link.

http://www.redmetals.com/tube_pipe/roundcoppertubing.htm 

It is a company in Waterbury, CT. They list 5/16" od x 0.016" to 0.065" wall thickness. I will give a call Wednesday, 23rd to see what they have available.

In my search I found another source for small shape pieces in brass, copper and steel that will be of use in model making. That link is:

http://www.lewisbrass.com/


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## steamin (Feb 22, 2011)

I just pulled my Coles Power Models Catalog #26 out and they list a 5/16" od by 22 ga. copper tube. That is a 0.028" wall thickness and would give us a 0.256" id. PERFECT  I will call them Wednesday 23rd to see if they have any.


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## steamin (Feb 23, 2011)

I just touched base with Coles Power Models about 5/16" OD x 22 ga. copper tubing. They do have some in stock and will be glad to cut my flue tubes to length. So I placed my request with them. Thank you Dan for all your input. As I get back to the actual boiler build, I will post some pictures of the progress. Because the boiler is an intergal part of the chassis, it will be awhile before I get back to the boiler build. I have a few more things I want to do to the chassis before I do a major disassemble to continue work on the boiler.

The other possible source I mentioned in the previous posting has 5/16" OD tubing available, but only with 0.017" and 0.032" wall thickness.


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## sunworksco (Feb 23, 2011)

What is the operating working pressure of your boiler?
I'm building a vertical 7.5" diameter x 4.5" height boiler and need similar sized fire tubes.


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## steamin (Feb 23, 2011)

Hi Giovanni, I plan to operate the boiler around 60 psig or less. I am not going to see how high and how far I can squirt water. Just want to have some fun and blow the whistle.


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## sunworksco (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm going to have 100psi.
Do you think these tubes would have a thick enough wall thickness?
The thin walls of the fire tubes will exchange heat more efficiently.


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## steamin (Feb 24, 2011)

Giovanni, I am not sure. Maybe some others can jump in here to answer that question. I did silver soldered a copper boiler yet to be pressurized. The flue tubes specs for that build was 5/16" OD x 0.032" wall. It is suppose to be able to carry 100 psig. I figure a wall thickness of 0.028" should be able to carry the 60-80 pounds I would like to have for the LaFrance. 

On a different note, how do one edit their post within this forum ? I have looked high and low, what am I missing ? Thanks !


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## JorgensenSteam (Feb 24, 2011)

Use this button


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## steamer (Feb 25, 2011)

Hi,

Like Pat said its under the "Modify" button..I believe you have 24 hours....


Dave


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## steamin (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank you gentlemen, if it were a snake it would have bitten my right pinky off. Try as hard as I can to proof read before I post, there seems to be a mistake in content or just plan wording.


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## Jasonb (Feb 26, 2011)

giovanni  said:
			
		

> I'm going to have 100psi.
> Do you think these tubes would have a thick enough wall thickness?



Giovanni we have said on numerous occasions to do proper calculations for your boiler not just hope someone elses choice of tubes/plate/barrel will suit your boiler. If you were overhere you would have to show these calcs to the boiler inspector as its an unproven boiler design (in model terms)

J


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## Jasonb (Feb 26, 2011)

Steamin you may find this interesting, we don't usually bead over the tube ends though.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCz3dK0tC-A&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

J


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## steamin (Feb 26, 2011)

JasonB, thanks a lot for the video link. Yes, it was interesting. About 5 years ago, my wife and I went to a steam school at the Denton Farm Park, NC. We had the opportunity to plasma cut some tubes out and then go through the process on installing new ones.

I totally agree with you on boiler calcs. I had to furnish them to the state of North Carolina Board of Labor for the build of my 1/3 scale CASE 65. I found some great stuff at the state of Maryland Boiler Division for calculating everything but the flue tubes themselves. I have gone through my two booklets on building "model" copper boilers, but found no mention on how to properly size flue tubes or how to calculate the other boiler parameters. I have several drawings for model copper boilers that specify a certain size of flue tube but I have no idea how they came to that size. 

For the LaFrance, I am making an all steel welded boiler, which is inherently stronger than a copper silver soldered boiler. Instead of steel flue tubes that I have used in 4 other boiler fab jobs, I want to roll in 5/16" x 0.028" thick wall hard copper seamless tubing into 0.250" thick tube sheets. The original plans called for 3/8" x 0.035" wall copper flue tubes. Dropping down to 5/16" diameter with a slightly thinner wall does not give me a great deal of concern. If I should be concerned, please someone wave a RED flag.


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## Jasonb (Feb 26, 2011)

Those tubes should be fine, my current traction engine has the same size though soldered into 0.128" copper plates and rated at considerably more than your 60psi (don't want to say what as others need to do calcs).

Harris's book gives some advice on size & number of tubes, if you don't have it there is a link to it on-line in the other boiler fab thread. My only thoughts may be with you wanting a wood burner they may soot up a bit faster in teh smaller sizes but it not as though you want to run it all day so a good sweep after each session will be fine and not too much resinous pine.


J


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## steamer (Feb 26, 2011)

steamin  said:
			
		

> Thank you gentlemen, if it were a snake it would have bitten my right pinky off. Try as hard as I can to proof read before I post, there seems to be a mistake in content or just plan wording.



Ahhh no worries ...wait till you've done it a couple dozen times and becomes old hat! ;D

Dave


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 27, 2011)

steamin  said:
			
		

> I totally agree with you on boiler calcs. I had to furnish them to the state of North Carolina Board of Labor for the build of my 1/3 scale CASE 65. I found some great stuff at the state of Maryland Boiler Division for calculating everything but the flue tubes themselves. I have gone through my two booklets on building "model" copper boilers, but found no mention on how to properly size flue tubes or how to calculate the other boiler parameters. I have several drawings for model copper boilers that specify a certain size of flue tube but I have no idea how they came to that size.



Larry, yes I agree that finding a formula for sizing a model boiler flue is not easy. I assume you read the thread on this topic. It is a complex problem because tubes with external pressure do not fail in the same mannor as with internal pressure. External pressure causes the tube to buckle and that is why hard drawn tube is used as it needs to be as round as possible to resist the buckling forces.

The model boiler books by Harris and Evans both have a list for tube sizes. Kozo did not address the issue of flue tube sizes in his article on the safety of copper boilers. The AMBSC has a table for flue sizes very similar to Harris and Evans. I did notice also that the Maryland Code does not have anything on flue sizes.

When you showed your calcs on the 1/3 Case how was the flue tube issue handled? 

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 27, 2011)

Dan, I poured over the thread covering 'Flue Tube Calculations" late last night. I copied the formulas and transferred them to a word document that is on my laptop desk top right now. I hope to run some numbers in the next day or two. I understand with what is being said about external pressure vs. internal pressure. It has also been my understanding that a seamless round tube is stronger under external pressure (compression strength) than internal pressure (tensile strength) due to the geometry involved. I suppose if I had looked a little deeper in the Boiler Thread I could have seen my original questions had already been answered. Sorry for going down the same trail again. I do appreciate your patience ! Hopefully I can present some pictures of the fabrication of the boiler fairly soon. There are some items I want to finish with the frame while it is still all assembled. Then I plan to do a complete disassembly and then work on the boiler. 

Dan, what I presented to the NC Board of Labor was based on the formulas that I gleaned from the Maryland Board of Labor. Yes, there was nothing about flue tubes and the NC boiler inspector never questioned the size or wall thickness that I used in my 1/3 scale CASE. He was more concerned about the materials used. I was able to hand him copies of the specs of the materials I used in the boiler. The inspector looked over the calculations, gave a visual inspection and we fired the engine and ran it up so he could see that the pressure gauge correlated with the setting of the safety valve . The inspector gave me a tag with a number on it after the test. Later I received a bill and upon payment received paper work designating my boiler a "Special Boiler".


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## Dan Rowe (Feb 28, 2011)

Larry, no worries about bringing this up again. 

The other thread was was interesting but it really did not cover what is needed to show a State boiler Inspector in the United States. I do not think a reference to a thread on HMEM will do. I was startled when I realized that Kozo did not cover this in his article. I have to admit that I had not even noticed that fact until this was brought up and that is a bit embarrassing.

I did a search of the MacMaster & Carr hard copper tube and compared it to the AMBSC Part 1 Copper Boilers Table 3.10.1. Some of the copper tube I can buy does not meet AMBSC specs. Now I know that the AMBSC is not a legal code in the US but it has standard model practice which is a good place to start if nothing else can be found.

I think the place to look for code rules in the United States is the ASME code. Kozo referenced some places to start looking in that code and it is on my list to get down to the U. of TX to read the ASME code to see what it says about copper for boiler flue tubes.

You mentioned the specs that you showed the inspector. What did they include was the tube type L copper pipe?
You also mentioned the specs for the steel for this boiler did that information come from the Maryland boiler code?

Thanks for helping explain what it takes to get a State Special boiler cert.

Dan


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## steamin (Feb 28, 2011)

HI Dan, The Maryland document gave me the formulas for calculating the working pressure, ultimate bursting pressure, stay bolt size and pitch. I did not pursue what Maryland spec out for materials. I just went to my local boiler fabricator and purchased the necessary plate materials. I purchased the steel flue tubes from Kilsby-Roberts Tube Sales. In both cases they provided the material certifications that I could share with whomever to show that I used PVG (Pressure Vessel Quality) materials throughout the boiler.

North Carolina does not have any "Model Boiler Codes" in place. They have been very gracious to work with those of us who wish to go the inspection route. A few of us modelers were trying to start the procedure for establishing model codes in NC, but it met a lot of opposition from the vast majority of model steam participants. They had no kind words for inspectors and an inspection process, so the movement has died.

I have mounted my boiler tag in a prominent place for all to see when we are belted up to the sawmill. It has helped the show sponsors to realize that I have jumped through some hoops to make the 1/3 scale CASE as safe as possible. worst case scenario is that I have to do a hydrostatic test or fire the engine and pop off the safety valve to prove that it works at its set pressure.

The only place I have been denied to run my CASE was at the Rough and Tumble show in Kinser, PA. They said I was welcome, but leave my CASE at home.

The LaFrance boiler is my first experience using copper for flue tubes and especially doing the rolling process. But with your words of wisdom and supportive information from others, I feel that the method I have shared with all of you will be a success. 

I have ordered my copper flue tubes from Coles Power Models. I do not know the specs of the copper. I assume and we know what that could mean, that it is of the proper grade for miniature boiler fabrication. 

Again thank you for your interest and support.


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## GWRdriver (Feb 28, 2011)

steamin  said:
			
		

> A few of us modelers were trying to start the procedure for establishing model codes in NC, but it met a lot of opposition from the vast majority of model steam participants. They had no kind words for inspectors and an inspection process, so the movement has died.


All known attempts to create a US Model Code in the last 50 years, and there have been a number, have been squashed by two attitudes. Those would be the _"Ain't nobody going to tell me what I can or can't do with my train"_ folks, who always quote something about "freedom" or "rights" or some such, and then there are the _"A Model Code is great, as long as the person dictating what's in it is ME."_ folks. Then some of the objections are about dollars, people don't want to have to do things right because doing it right might cost them more money or be more trouble. I understand that, but one boiler done on the cheap or carelessly, resulting in one injury, is all it would take to bring unwanted Gubmint scrutiny down on our heads. I've been shouted down in more than one forum for speaking in favor of a US national model code - it's a very touchy subject. One thing some model code objectors don't seem to be willing to accept is gaining legal standing under a state code by an exclusion. This can protect live steamers far more than we are hurt by it. There are number of states where operating an amateur built miniature boiler was once illlegal, a felony, and might still be if it hadn't been for the foresight and work of live steamers in gaining an exclusions in their state boiler codes. But there is a tradeoff for legal standing which is that we must abide by the terms of the exclusions, which can vary widely from state to state, but in retrospect exclusions seem to me to be a more workable solution than herding cats (ie, creating a national model code.)

I do think the percentage of boiler builders, or potential boiler builders, who want to do it right is on the rise as people recognize the benefits to all of us of making things as safe as possible and go on to lead by example, as Steamin is. As a curious addendum to the boiler safety issue, based upon several occurrences in the last ten years or so, and in the experience of my own club with our insurers, the insurance companies aren't particularly concerned with little boilers. Their #1 concern these days is loss and liability due to personal (passenger/rider) injury, public or private, and that's where the most changes in safety precautions and operating procedure have come from in the last five years or so. We haven't done enough as clubs, apparently, to police ourselves (so we can be free to do what we want, etc), and common sense doesn't apply in liability cases, so the insurance companies have stepped in and are issuing ultimatums, either do what we say to help us insure you, or there will be no insurance. So if the insurors aren't concerned about boilers why should we? The reason insurers aren't concerned is that so far we've given them no reason (no losses) to be concerned. I hope we can continue giving them no reasons to be. We occasionally see mentioned here the AMBSC (Australian) code and then there's the Federation Regs in the UK, but I believe I am right in saying that neither of these model Codes were the result of Gubmint intrusion or instigation. These were driven by insurance issues first and then subsequent development was done in cooperation with Gubmint agencies.


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## steamin (Mar 1, 2011)

Yes, we scale steam modelers face a lot adversities with the different rules, regulations and the lack of the same from state to state concerning boiler design, fabrication and the materials to be used. This is why I support forums such as this; it helps and/or provides information that will help others to build a safe working boiler and steam equipment.

Since I do not see anything such as a national scale model boiler code on the horizon, I encourage anyone who is around steam operated models and even the full size counterparts to question anything that they feel is out of place or being operated in an unsafe manner. We need to step up to the plate and take charge of our surroundings. I have done it several times and the owners were not aware of the situation at hand and appreciated my input. I am sure there will be a time that I will be told to go fly a kite, but at least I will have done my part to help keep the hobby a little more safer. 

GWRdriver, I understand exactly what you are saying and there was a long discussion about this very topic on the SmokStak forum. Maybe if you start a thread devoted to this topic it may reach more individuals and provide the fuel needed to start a movement for a "National Model Boiler Code". 

What I was trying to say in my last posting was; the NC Board of Labor was willing to work with me. As I showed them kindness and respect, it was returned with their services to help me to be a better informed steam engineer and boiler fabricator.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 1, 2011)

Larry a karma point for the extra effort to keep the hobby safe and building a State Special.

I do not think there is much hope for a National Model Boiler Code but with out reasonable dialogue on the subject there will never be any reason to hope for such a code. I started a thread on US State Boiler Code and located the online link for most of the state boiler codes. http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8846.0 That might be a good place to start the discussion or another separate thread if that seams the best. 

I have been thinking about the flue tubes for the boiler this thread it about. It might be a good idea to give space for a future retube with 3/8" tubes. It was not easy to source 5/16" tubes in the US and that most likely will not change. The roller could be modified for the 3/8" tube you found by only turning down the first 1/4" or so of the cage. There is no reason to stick the roller in any further than that.

Dan


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## steamer (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi Dan et al,

I agree with the concept of a code.  It may be more palatable if it were based, where possible on the section 1 code, or the existing model boiler code.  JMO.

Let me explain.

If we could distilled into say, re-enforcement curves, such as found in the section 1, it may be easier to convince....No I'm not volunteering... ;D

I'm just talking out loud.....Thoughts?

Dave


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## JorgensenSteam (Mar 1, 2011)

I have not heard of anyone getting hurt from a tube collapsing.
It seems like when the end of a boiler fails is when the problems get big.

My problem is a boiler without an inspection hatch.
How do you look at the bottom plate and figure out the level of corrosion.

Endoscope maybe through one of the fittings?

Seems like a water tube boiler would have an advantage in the ability to inspect it, but I don't see many water tube types used.

Edit:
The other problem I see is that there are no standard boiler designs.
It seems like they could approve a couple of standardized horizontal and vertical sizes, an then you could build to an approved standard design, and would only have to worry about assembly, not the design itself or the material, since all that would be approved and tested.


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## Maryak (Mar 2, 2011)

BoS

Ultrasound is your friend here, especially if you can borrow one with a graphic trace and memory. That way you can provide your inspector and yourself with the evidence as to thickness and suitability for continued service.

I say borrow because we are talking megabucks here; definitely not for a one off unless your Rupert Murdoch.

NATA registered metallurgy laboratories are a place to start combined with huge amounts of grovelling and show and tell.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob

Edit......... Another option is Xray


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## steamin (Mar 2, 2011)

Sir Dan, that has a "Knightly" ring to it, thank you very much for the comment.

That is a great idea about the 3/8" OD tubes. I will stick to the original flue tube hole pattern on the drawings. I was looking at the drawing the other day. I don't think I could have added any more tubes anyway. As it is, I am eliminating 2 tubes. The exhaust pipe from the cylinders ran over the top of them. I do not like the idea of flue tubes blasting the exhaust pipe with hot hot gases and/or flames.


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## steamin (Mar 10, 2011)

I have been monitoring several postings in this section. The wealth of information is tremendous. Thank you to all for sharing. In a newly started thread, a gentlemen was requesting some modern day boiler wrap type insulation for his recently acquired Stuart Boiler. It has the dreaded asbestos on it and he wants to replace it. Someone suggested Blackgates or Reeves2000 for possible boiler wrap material. I checked out both web sites and did not see anything offered.

So, my fellow miniature boiler gurus, where do you and what is it that you wrap your boilers with to insulate them before you put an outside cover on it ? I will need something in the near future for my LaFrance boiler.


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## Dan Rowe (Mar 10, 2011)

Hi Larry,
Go to McMaster & Carr and type ceramic insulation in the search engine. Several types should work well for your project.

Dan


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## Jasonb (Mar 10, 2011)

Kaowool, I've answered in teh other thread

J


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## steamin (Mar 10, 2011)

Thanks Dan :bow: I just checked out what they have. I think I will get the 1/16" thick by 3" wide material. This way I will not have to cut holes in ONE BIG piece.

I can not say I am looking forward to making the otter wrap from the sheet steel that all the other LaFrance engines have. It is one of those operations I have not been able to see my way through. So, I am thinking of using the the ceramic insulation you so kindly guided me too and covering that with vertical red mahogany boards. Then hold them in place with the typical brass bands. Any thoughts and/or comments ?


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## Jasonb (Mar 10, 2011)

Put the insulation material under teh cleading steel, its the way full size engines were done but they used timber. Exposed boards were mostly on stationary engines nor traction engines or pumpers.

I've just spent the last 2 weekends doing the brass clading and boiler bands on my Traction engine

J


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## steamin (Mar 10, 2011)

Yes, JasonB, deep down in my heart I know that steel cladding is the thing to do. I will probably will do just as you say. I'll save the wood cladding for the stationary boiler that is sitting on the shelf. But I had to ask. Thanks !


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## steamin (Mar 22, 2011)

I did receive some copper tubing from Coles Power Models a few weeks ago. It was not what I ordered. I wanted 5/16" OD by 22 gauge (0.028") wall thickness. They sent me what the print called for instead, 3/8" OD by 20 gauge (0.035") wall. So I called them and requested what I needed again and why. I sent the 3/8" tubes back for a refund. I received a package a few days ago with 5/16" OD by 18 gauge (0.048") wall copper tubes. I called again and the lady who takes the orders was highly disturbed to say the least about my order. I can not believe that someone would take tubing off the rack and just blindly cut and send out without measuring first. It boggles my mind 

Anyway, the bottom line is; I do not believe they have the exact size I need. I plain to call back in a couple of days to check for sure. So I am planning to use a 0.250" diameter drill through the entire length of the tube (6.0"). I will drill from both ends. Then I will use a Letter"F" (0.257") reamer for at least 1.5" to bring each end to size for my tube roller. The minimum diameter for the tube roller is 0.254"

I am open to any thoughts or suggestions !

I have rough cut the two tube sheets from 1/4" plate. The attached picture show the first one in the lathe. I do something that I call pressure turning. I run the jaws out fairly close to the finished diameter of the work piece. Then I use the live center to hold the plate against the jaws.


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## steamin (Mar 24, 2011)

I talked with the folks at Coles Power Models this morning. They did confirm that they have the copper tubing I have requested twice, but for some reason they seem to be unable to follow through. Since they indicated that they would not be able to sell what I have, if I returned them, I decided to make do with what I have. I will proceed to drill out and ream the tubing to the size I need. I hate to see good materials go to waste. It takes about 1-1/2 minutes to do one tube.

On with the build ;D

Picture #1 shows the results of the turning I started in the last posting. Left to right; boiler top tube sheet, mud ring and then firebox tube sheet.

Picture #2 shows the last hole being drilled and reamed to size in the top tube sheet.

Picture #3 shows a mock-up with the mud ring on the bottom of the firebox and the tube sheets in their basic location with each other. In the foreground is a drilled and reamed flue tube with the tube roller partial inserted. The outer shell needs to have some tabs welded on it for other attachments. I need to remove a couple of bushings at the mud ring area. They are in the way of the coal bin. Then I need to locate the fire box opening. The fire box will be welded in place and then the hole for feeding the fuel into the firebox will be made in both pieces. 

Picture #4 shows the tube sheets in their respective location.


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## steamin (Mar 26, 2011)

Good Evening, been busy all day TIG welding boiler pieces together. For those of you that are not familiar with TIG welding, let me give a brief explanation. TIG stands for "tungsten inert gas". 

Picture #1 shows a typical TIG torch head. The handle and head portion is water cooled. The pink colored item is a ceramic cone or nozzle. There is a tungsten electrode with a sharp point barely sticking out of the nozzle. The work piece is grounded as in any typical welding process. When you activate the foot pedal to start the welding process, argon gas starts to flow and floods the immediate area to be welded. Then the current is applied to the electrode generating a plasma arc. As the current is increased the metal starts to melt and pool very much like when soldering with a tin/lead solder. There is two basic processes in TIG welding. The first is fusion welding. This is when you melt the metal of the pieces you want to join together without any filler material. The second process is a fillet weld. Same process as the first one mentioned but a filler material is added to the pool that has been generated to increase the amount of material at the weld joint. There is no smoke, splatter, scale or fumes generated with TIG welding. It is a very controlled and clean process and you can see what is taking place all during the process.

OK, on with the build; Picture #2 shows the pieces for the fire box entrance way. Beside the pieces is a "slugger cutter". It is the same diameter as the outside radius of the firebox entrance pieces. I will use the slugger cutter to make the penetration into the outer boiler shell and firebox. I will post some pictures of this process later.

Picture #3 shows the pieces mentioned earlier tack welded together. Again, all I had to do was to place the tungsten electrode over the joint and apply the current. Both side melted together.

Picture #4 shows the beginning of what I call the 'root" weld. This is a fusion weld as described earlier. After the work piece cools, I will come back and add filler material to complete the welds. 

Continued to next posting.


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## steamin (Mar 26, 2011)

Continued from Reply #67

Picture #1 shows the mud ring in place with the beginning of the root weld. I like to do short sections opposite each other to help distribute the heat evenly throughout the work piece. After completing the root weld, I will let the piece cool down completely before doing the filler weld.

Picture #2 shows the completed root weld of the firebox tube sheet. Beside it is the firebox entrance assembly ready for machining.

Picture #3 shows the firebox with the tube sheet and mud ring welded in place. The 4 ears are for keeping the firebox on center with the outer shell during the welding process of the mud ring to the outer shell. 

Continued to next posting.


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## steamin (Mar 26, 2011)

Continued from Reply #68

Picture #1 shows some of the threaded studs that protrude into the pressure side of the boiler. What I do is to take the TIG torch head and hold it vertical over the stud, apply the current and slowing melt the stud material down to the inside of the boiler shell. All the while I am doing a slight circular motion. 

Picture #2 shows the results of the welding process as described.

Picture #3 shows the firebox in place and the root weld has been performed. At this point I am letting it cool down to room temperature before doing the fillet weld.

Picture #4 shows the completed weld joint of the mud ring to the outer shell.

The next thing to do is to set the assembly up in the milling machine and make the opening for the firebox entrance way.

Thank you so much for your interest.


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## sunworksco (Mar 27, 2011)

Very nice work and interesting tutorial!


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## steamin (Mar 29, 2011)

Giovanni, thank you very much for your kind comment.

I had a little time to spend in the shop today, so I made the hole in the boiler for the firebox entrance way.

Picture #1 shows an aluminum block with four 5/16-24 bolts in each side. The bolts have a slight crown to them so they can be tightened against the inside surface of the work piece. The center hole was drilled exactly on center of the block. I change out the bolts as needed for other sizes of tubing and pipe. The block is very tight inside the firebox. It will not move !

Picture #2 shows the boiler set-up in in the indexer and the slugger cutter ready to do its thing. I did add a parallel to the underside of the boiler on the centerline of the cutter for more support.

Picture #3 shows the results of the first pass of the cutter through the boiler and firebox. The round disc sitting just to the right of the hole is the slug that was generated from the boiler shell. The slug from the firebox fell into the firebox as the cutter went all the way through. I then moved the boiler 0.210" off center in each direction on the "Y" axis to get the hole I needed as shown in Picture #4


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## Jasonb (Mar 30, 2011)

Thats comming along well. How do you propose to weld the firehole ring to the inner firebox?, looks a tricky one to me.

J


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## steamin (Mar 30, 2011)

Jasonb, you are absolutely right, it will be tricky and will take a lot of patience on my part. I will have to leave the coffee alone prior to welding the inside. :big: A bevel will be ground on each mating piece generating a "V" at the weld joint. The surfaces will be flush with each other. But having the "V" will give me a good visual to follow through the welding process. The TIG torch has a long hollow top to it to accomadate a 6" long piece of tungsten. That piece can be replaced by a small cap and then only a 2" long piece of tungsten can be used. This allows for the torch head to be shortened a great deal and allows for access into the proverbial "Tight Places". I did a little practice with the torch head inside the firebox and I feel it will be a doable process. I have been in tighter situations at the college where I use to work where we made a lot of high vacume chambers out of stainless steel. 

I will post some pictures shortly and give an update on the process.


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## kvom (Mar 30, 2011)

How about a closer look at the tailstock for the dividing head. Looks interesting.


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## Jasonb (Mar 30, 2011)

kvom  said:
			
		

> How about a closer look at the tailstock for the dividing head. Looks interesting.



Looks like a couple of 1-2-3 blocks, vee block, clamp and a bit of rod to me


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## steamin (Mar 30, 2011)

You are exactly right ! The rod is a 0.250" diameter hardened steel dowel pin that has a point ground on the end. It was then inserted in the center hole of the aluminum block. Sorry, but I tore the setup down before reading your request for more pictures. Jason, I find setups almost as challenging as the actual machining process. Sometimes it can take hours to make a setup and then only minutes to make the cut. It is a lot like Thanksgiving dinner. It takes all morning and early afternoon to prepare the feast and in less than 20 minutes it has all been consumed :big:

Thank you for your interest and comments. I truly am enjoying looking at your Fowler Engine :bow:


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## steamin (Mar 30, 2011)

Well the deed has been done. The firebox ring is in and welded. YEH !

Picture #1 is a view of the interior after welding.

Picture #2 is view of the outside just prior to doing the root weld.

Picture #3 is the boiler standing tall and proud and anxious to make steam.

Next is installing the steam stand pipe inside the boiler. Weld the top tube sheet in place. Prep the flue tubes and install them. Make the fire box door, hinges and latch. Then maker a lot of little MTP plugs for the hydro test.


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## steamin (Apr 2, 2011)

Well the top tube sheet is welded to the boiler shell and I have started to work up the copper flue tubes. A brief recap; I am drilling out the copper tubing that was sent to me to 0.250" diameter and then reaming 1-1/2" into each end with a Letter"F" (0.257") reamer. This makes it just the right diameter for the tube roller I have.

Let me pass on a couple of machining techniques for you. When drilling into an existing hole, Chamfer the hole first so the drill does not have a sharp edge to start on. This will eliminate the chatter and give a truer hole. The same thing applies to reaming the hole. Generate a chamfer for the reamer to start against. I bring the reamer right up to the tube and apply a little pressure via the tail stock hand wheel. Then I turn on the the spindle and the reamer starts to cut immediately. This eliminates the chatter that is associated with a multi-edge cutting tools. 

Picture #1 shows the tube roller being inserted into the copper flue tube for the rolling process.

Picture #2 shows the tube roller inserted all the way to its adjustable stop. I use a 5/16" 12 point socket with a "T" handle to rotate the tapered shaft that expands the rollers out inside the flue tube. As you turn the "T" handle clock wise it feeds itself into the tube roller main body and thus expanding rollers that in turn expands the tube into the hole of the tube sheet. Rotate the "T" handle counter clock wise and the tapered shaft retracts allowing the tube roller to be removed from the flue tube. I will not know what kind of job I have done until I do a hydro test. It should be very interesting to say the least.

Picture #3 shows the top tube sheet with four flue tubes in place and rolled. YEH! Now I only have 38 more to go.


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## Dan Rowe (Apr 3, 2011)

Hi Larry,
Nice work you should be ready for a hydro soon. I am glad to know the drill and ream the end worked for that tube roller as I have one just like it in the drawer.

Dan


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## sunworksco (Apr 20, 2011)

Being a plumbing contractor for 34 years now, I have known that it is not a good practice to mix dissimilar metals due to electrolysis.
How is this different with boilers?
What pressures can your boiler be operated?
Since I am building a vertical 7.5" diameter x 4.5" height boiler, would it be practical to build it with your methods or fabricate the entire boiler out of copper?
BTW, your craftsmanship is superb!
Regards,
Giovanni


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## steamin (Apr 20, 2011)

Hi Giovanni, Yes, you are probably exactally right with your assessment. I chose this particular method of construction because of my lack of equipment to silver solder an assembly as large as I have. My boiler is 5.5" OD x 11.75" tall. The fire box is 4.2" ID x 5.0" tall. Much bigger than I wanted to tackle for a silver solder fabrication. Plus my success of welded steel joinery is on the plus side. As far as electrolysis is concerned, well, I may not live long enough to have to worry about it. I do plan to put a fire in the boiler and make steam, but most of the time it will be ran on air at shows. 

I plan to do a hydro test up to 200 psig. This is twice the max operating pressure I plan to use. This is typical for the first hydro. There after it is 1.5 times the operating pressure if another hydro is needed. I plan to operate in the range of 60 - 80 psig. 

Yours sounds like a more doable situation completely out of copper. If you have the heat and it sounds like you have the experience, go for it.

Thank you for the interest and comments. Many heads are better than one anytime.

Right now, I have 6 more tubes to drill, ream and roll and that phase will be done. I have a couple of plugs to make and an adaptor to make to hook my hydro pump up to the boiler for the hydro test. I will take pics and post the results soon; I hope.


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## sunworksco (Apr 20, 2011)

I do not weld but have been silver soldering for a lifetime.
The problem that I am coming up against is that the scale model boiler shell is 7.5 inch outside diameter x 4.5 inch height and copper tube is not made in this size but steel pipe is.
I can have 1/4 inch copper plate laser cuter with dove-tail joinery and then rolled for a strong silver soldered joint but steel pipe is looking better all the time with a lower cost in materials.
I'm building 6 boilers at one time.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## JorgensenSteam (Apr 21, 2011)

You would think that electrolysis would be a problem with a copper tube rolled into a steel end plate, but I have run one for 10 years without leaking a drop, and I know of three other individuals with the same copper/steel type boiler, and they have not had problems either.

If it were a problem, it probably would have shown up over a 10 year period in at lest one of these boilers.

Pat J


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## sunworksco (Apr 21, 2011)

Wouldn't an all-copper boiler be faster to boil and the water PH is not critical ?
I'm planning to use distilled water, too.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Jasonb (Apr 21, 2011)

Copper is certainly a better conductor of heat so should be easier to bring upto pressure but you should do this with caution as too rapid heating can cause the tubes to expand at a faster rate then the barrel. Maybe not such an issue with the proportions of your boiler but can be on a loco or traction engine boiler.

Jason


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## sunworksco (Apr 21, 2011)

Could I possibly hybridize the boiler construction by using a steel shell with copper plate bulkheads and copper tubes all silver-soldered together ?
Why can't the traditional steel boiler shell and welded bulkheads be galvanized before installing the copper tubes ?
Regards,
Giovanni


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## Jasonb (Apr 21, 2011)

Galvanizing contains zinc which will leach out and eventually you will have no coating inside, this is why you should not use brass in places that will come into contact with the boiler water as the zinc degrades and the part will fail.

Jason

PS may be worth moving this to your 7.5" boiler thread to save hijacking this one.


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## sunworksco (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks!
Regards,
Giovanni


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## steamin (Apr 23, 2011)

Well, I reached a major mile stone with the boiler tonight. All the flue tubes are in, the holes were plugged and compressed air applied to the boiler for an initial check. I had a lot of blow by on the flue tubes; mainly because I did not know how much to crank the tube roller. Well, I do now. I still have a few hisses and I will need to chase those down with soap and water. The air pressure was at 180 psig. After the hisses are all gone, I'll try the ole water hydro test and see what that produces.


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## sunworksco (Apr 24, 2011)

She's a real beauty!
Great build!


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## Jasonb (Apr 24, 2011)

Thats comming along nicely.

Just a safety note for the less experienced builders when testing a boiler it should really be filled with water before being presurized as a liquid is far less explosive than a compressed gas should there be a major failure.

J


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## steamin (Apr 24, 2011)

Jasonb, I never realized nor have I ever heard of that safety issue. Thank you for bringing that to my/our attention. I must say you are a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing.


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## steamin (Apr 27, 2011)

A couple of days ago I finished putting in all the flue tubes. The holes were plugged and a small amount of air was applied to the boiler. There was a lot of blow by on the flue tubes. I rerolled the obvious ones. Then I applied soapy water to the tubes and tube sheets. You could see little tiny bubbles where the air was leaking. So I rolled just enough to stop the leak. After going through all the tubes, the air pressure was increased and the tubes rechecked. After doing this process a couple of times and re-rolling a couple of the tubes, they held 180 pounds of air pressure without making any bubbles.

I must say I am very disappointed in my welding of the studs in the outer shell. There were 4 of them leaking pretty bad. So to seal them, I floated silver solder around them. I went ahead and silver soldered all 16 of them.

Tonight I did the hydro test. The initial test showed a very small weep hole at one of the frame mounting bushings. A light touch of the TIG torch sealed the weep hole and the second hydro went without showing any more leaks or weeps. The boiler was pressurized to 200 pounds plus. The boiler weighs 17-1/2 pounds with 3-1/2 pints of water in it. The boiler should work very well with my operating pressure of 60-80 pounds.

I do believe this brings the boiler build to a close. I do want to extend my thanks to all of you that have been following this thread and to those that have contributed a great deal of time with their thoughts, comments and suggestions. I have learned a lot and I hope some of you have been able to glen something from this build.

Since the boiler is done I will be continuing my postings about the LaFrance in my original posting under "A Work In Progress".


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## Dan Rowe (Apr 27, 2011)

Nice work on the boiler :bow: :bow: :bow:

I will be looking forward to the updates on the build thread.

Cheers Dan


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## Jasonb (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for posting the build, its been interesting and informative. Hope it will hold up in the steam test as the heat may move the tubes slightly and the odd one could need a bit more rolling when it settles down, though as the length is relatively short there should not bee too much differential movement of the copper/steel.

Just one point looking at the last photo, you may find it steams better with the firebox at the bottom 

J


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## steamin (Apr 28, 2011)

You mean I have it upside down ??? If I do, I sure have a lot of rework to do :

Jason, I started to laugh out loud when I read your last comment. My wife was sitting next me and had to ask what was so funny. I read your comment to her and she said you must have gotten your sense of humor from breathing to much steam oil :big: :big: :big:

She did appreciate your comment, because she fires the 1/3 CASE while I play sawyer. So she is very familiar with the process.

Larry


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## sunworksco (Apr 29, 2011)

Hope to see a video of the finished engine.


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## steamin (Apr 29, 2011)

The good Lord is willing and the tornados don't blow everything away, I will be glad to post some video.


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