# Flame Licker "Jan Ridders" not working



## orangeray (Dec 11, 2014)

Hey, my name is Michael
A month ago I started working on my first  Flame Licker for a school project. This week I've finished it and saddly  it isn't running at all. I saw some trouble shootings for Flame Lickers  and read a lot about running this engine right, but there's nothing  that fits my situation, so I've decided to ask you guys.

I'm not  sure but I think the problem with my Flame Licker is, that the control  piston on the left is opening way to early because of the air pressure.  I' ve made a video where you can see my engine and how it runs, especially at the end of the video there's a SlowMotion shot which shows the cylinder movement slowly:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3OzK0dAcBk&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

Thanks for your help! And sorry for my English (I'm from Switzerland)

Here some pictures of my engine:


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## JLeatherman (Dec 11, 2014)

I believe it moves like that in the video because it is drawing in room-temperature air.  When you draw in hot air from the flame, that air cools after the valve is shut and creates a vacuum.  The motion of the control piston due to air compression won't happen when there is a vacuum in the cylinder.  I built a different style of flame licker, a "Poppin" but when you spin it without a flame nearby the compression of the piston returning to the top of the cylinder causes the flapper valve to be blown out slightly (similar to the movmement of your control piston) yet the engine runs happily along with a flame.  I suspect you have a more mundane issue with yours.  My biggest issue with mine was piston fitment.  I made mine from graphite rod, which I sourced and used at a nominal diameter.  Although it appeared to fit well it turned out that the OD was not perfectly round and it had poor sealing around the piston as a result.  I had to make a new piston and cylinder at a smaller diameter before mine ran properly.

Given that yours appears to have decent compression, by noting the movement of the control piston, and also it appears not to have an issue with excess friction, have you tried changing the timing?  It looks to me as though the timing should be more advanced, i.e. the control piston should close sooner.  This gives the gas in the cylinder more time to cool and contract.  If that fails I would check more fully the seal your control piston has both with regards to the cylinder bore and the flame entry window.


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## Swifty (Dec 11, 2014)

If it's any consolation, I made the twin cylinder version and can't get it to run properly either.

Paul.


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## orangeray (Dec 11, 2014)

@JLeatherman Thansk for your fast answer! Yeah I didn't think about this, until now I wasn't able to test the engine with a flame that is hot enough. What would you recommend should I use to burn the wick?
So you think theres not to much friction? I'm not sure because I saw some engines where the flywheel on it's own was moving for 1-2 minutes.

@Swifty The one from Jan Ridders? Yeahh at least I'm not the only one
Orangeray


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## Swifty (Dec 11, 2014)

Hi orangeray, yes mine is a Jan Ridders design. I tried different fuels in the burner, but it made no difference, so still use methylated spirits as the fuel.

Paul.


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## orangeray (Dec 11, 2014)

Alright, I'll try it with this fuel tomorrow, gonna post how it went.

Michael


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## JLeatherman (Dec 11, 2014)

I run mine with 99.8% pure methanol (methyl alcohol) purchased from Amazon.com.  I made the wick for mine by buying some premade wick for an oil lamp and cutting a strip off one edge.  It more or less unraveled when I did that, but once I had it twisted up and shoved into the burner it's been working fine.


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## portlandron (Dec 11, 2014)

I use Denatured Alcohol in mine. It can be found at most paint stores.
I have found that anything else creates to much moisture when it burns and makes the valve stick.


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## Cogsy (Dec 11, 2014)

I've built one of these and it was difficult to get it to run. I do think you've got a bit too much friction on the flywheel - it should spin a lot longer than that. Are you using unsealed bearings with all the grease washed out? A bit of graphite from a lead pencil is enough lubrication for them.

As for the engine, you need to make sure the valve cannot be drawn too far down the cylinder when it closes. It should seal the port and then be restricted from going any further. If not, precious vacuum power is wasted drawing the valve down the cylinder and then pushing it back up the cylinder, rather than pulling the piston up the cylinder (which is what you're after).

I use methylated spirits to run mine and it burns hot enough and clean enough to run.

Your engine looks well made. I'm sure you'll eventually get it to run.


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## Naiveambition (Dec 12, 2014)

I second cogsy. There must be No friction at all. These motors have almost no power so, when friction is even minimal , it's robbing the motor. 

I built the Poppin, and went thru switching fuel, remaking parts and so on,but when it rolled over freely, it started right away. My particular issue was figment between the crank and piston rod.   

With just flywheels on their bearings I would average 30 revolutions. With piston and no valve I would get somewhere around 10 and with valve maybe 2 to 5  revolutions. 

Mine is cast iron cylinder and piston, and runs great. After every few runs I will take it apart and clean, and also oil with graphite or pencil lead. As of now not showing any signs of wear.


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## orangeray (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks for your answers!

I'm using a sealed bearing, any tips how I could get rid of the sealing? Where could I get bearings which are already unsealed?

Picture of the bearing:





Orangeray


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## Swifty (Dec 12, 2014)

Easy to pull the seals out, I just use a small jewellers screwdriver and hook it on the inside diameter and flick it out.  Make sure that you wash out the grease with a solvent.

Paul.


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## Cogsy (Dec 12, 2014)

I use either a small screwdriver or an o-ring picker. If it has metal shields it can be a little tougher than rubber seals but still do-able, there will be a small gap between the metal shield and the inner race to get a thin probe in. Metal shields are not actually seals and do not contact the inner race, so they don't add any friction, but the grease inside is what is creating the drag. Once you wash the grease out completely they will spin a lot more freely.

Open bearings can be bought almost as easily as sealed bearings in most sizes, but watch out in the smaller sizes as the width of the bearing is often thinner for the open variety in miniature sizes. Depending on your plans this can be critical (although normally where a bearing of open width is designed and you buy a wider sealed bearing and it won't fit).


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## orangeray (Dec 13, 2014)

I just washed the bearings, but I'm still not sure if it is enough. I'm gonna upload a video when I try running it the next time.

Thanks for your answers

Michael


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## Blogwitch (Dec 13, 2014)

Personally, I wouldn't worry much that you can't get a long free running time on your flywheel.
I was discussing that with Jan a few years ago and was told as long as it turns over a few times it will be OK.

The critical bits are 

NO lubrication at all on the cylinder and piston
Make sure your flame is exactly in the right position and at the correct length
I tried the bent type of actuating rod, but found the original design of a right angled one much better. Have a look at the picture.

http://s202.photobucket.com/user/bogstandard_photos/media/Bogs%20pictures/Boxergulp2.jpg.html

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyrWRBoC-2c[/ame]


John


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## orangeray (Dec 14, 2014)

Blogwitch said:


> The critical bits are
> 
> NO lubrication at all on the cylinder and piston
> Make sure your flame is exactly in the right position and at the correct length
> I tried the bent type of actuating rod, but found the original design of a right angled one much better. Have a look at the picture.



I'll try to run it tomorrow if I can find a wick, which is going to work. So should I remake my actuating rod?

Michael


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## Blogwitch (Dec 28, 2014)

Hi Michael,
I have found a better picture of the operating rod I made.






As for position of the flame.
Just to the side of the inlet hole towards the head.
Wick length, about the same length as the inlet hole, but place the wick start, where it exits the holder about 5mm (3/16") below the hole bottom edge, wick diameter, I tried all different sizes of diameter, but found that 1/4" was about ideal.
I did at one time make a couple of gas burners, but because I couldn't get them to run very cleanly, they eventually gummed up the cylinders, requiring a good clean out, which you need to do after any decent run anyway.
There is a bit of a knack to starting, I used to warm the cylinders up for about 30 seconds with a blowtorch, then let it soak the heat for about another 30 seconds, then light your wick and try again. It really is an art to get them running, but once you get the sweet spots for the wick, try moving it around by about 1/16" in all directions, you can do it every time. I actually had the wick resting against the cylinder, that way, no cold air can get drawn in.

John


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## orangeray (Jul 9, 2016)

Hey guys

So I've been away for a long time due to stress in school. Now I have finished my apprenticeship as a polymechanic and I though I'd give my little engine another try as I was not able to get it to work until now.
I think I figured out what the problem is. The piston that should close the hole is opening way to early and I'm not 100% sure why it's moving like that.

Video of the Piston movement:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q96Yw5Zklg&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

I hope you guys can help me with my problem so I can get that little engine running 

Greetings from Switzerland
Michael


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## Blogwitch (Jul 9, 2016)

Michael,

I suspect that it is the operating rod causing the problem. When you push on the operating rod to cover the flame hole with the smaller contra piston, does it try to open the inlet to atmosphere when you let go of the operating rod?
Maybe you haven't got enough vacuum in between the two pistons. 
A flame licker works by the hot air cooling down in the cylinder, forming a vacuum and pulling the main piston back up the cylinder, so if the contra piston is moving back, then there will be no vacuum formed.
It is the vacuum that sucks both pistons together on the return stroke and keeps the cylinder sealed until the main piston operates the rod and breaks the seal, allowing the cycle to repeat itself.

John


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## orangeray (Jul 10, 2016)

Hei John

I think the operating rod is working fine, if I let go it doesn't move so that should work. As for the pistons they should form a vacuum, if I cover the hole with my finger and try to move the flying wheel, it is blocked and can only be moved with "force". Maybe I used the wrong material for the pistons, I used normal steel, same material as the cylinder, might that be a problem?

Michael


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## Blogwitch (Jul 10, 2016)

Michael,

If you see my previous posting, showing the two cylinders and a bit of brass bar, well the cylinders are made from cast iron, and the same material is used for the pistons. The brass bar was the lapping bar I used for the cylinders, ended up with both cylinders and all four pistons EXACTLY the same, and with a piston at the top of the bore, just past the flame hole towards the bottom, I could put my thumb over the bottom of the bore and not one of the pistons moved unless I took my thumb away, the pistons were less than 0.001" than the bore.
There is a reason for this, no lubrication is allowed so cast iron is self lubricating because of the carbon it contains and both the cylinder and piston expand at the same rate, so hopefully the gap between the two stays constant as well.

I think it all depends on which version you have built. The first version (mine) calls for cast iron cylinder (or stainless steel) and piston whereas the later version calls for a stainless cylinder with graphite piston. Which version is yours?

A quote from Jan about the first version.

*[FONT=&quot]Some specifications.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-The piston and the internal head valve are made of cast iron. The most important reason is that that this material has a low coefficient of expansion. This avoids jamming of the piston and/or the head valve in the cylinder. Furthermore, cast iron is more or less self-greasing, even at high temperatures caused by the high degree of carbon, it is wear resistant and working out is rather easy. For the cylinder I used cast iron to, but one can use good and rust free steel as well. The bore in the cylinder must be exactly cylindrical and smooth. The diameter of the piston as well as the head valve must be very little smaller than that of the cylinder bore, so that they can move without friction and yet sealing well against the open air.
- The pusher for the head valve is made out of two pieces steel wire with a diameter of about 2 mm. They are silver-soldered together, sharp squarely. This rod can simply move in a bore through the entire length of the cylinder wall. The short part of the rod drives the head valve with some space in the pin that is screwed in the head valve. This to avoid possible wriggling. On the opposite site of the pusher the small accessory is attached against which the piston strikes in the utmost right position to close the hole in the cylinder. I call this "the striker" (?) further on. This striker can be adjusted and fixed with a 2mm screw. This screw has a small knob on it so it can be easy untied by hand. With that it is easy to dismantle the rod, the piston and the head valve, f.i. to clean this parts and the inner surface of the cylinder.

 [/FONT]*
John


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## Journeyman (Jul 11, 2016)

Perseverance is the answer with this engine. I built one over a year ago and on seeing this thread I tried again to start it. I found it needs to be hot, the flame large and the wick set some way towards the rear of the engine (see end of video). When I first finished the engine it refused to run for more than a few seconds. My original pistons were from cast iron which rusted and gummed up very quickly. I remade brass pistons and these seem to work well with the stainless steel cylinder. 

I made a quick video (first effort with iMovie) which proves the design works, even though my flame port is too big (mixed up centre distance with overall length). There are some close ups at the end which may help with burner placement. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJBlCyv66nA"]Jan Ridders Vacuum Engine[/ame]

Cheers John


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## orangeray (Jul 11, 2016)

Blogwitch said:


> with a piston at the top of the bore, just past the flame hole towards the bottom, I could put my thumb over the bottom of the bore and not one of the pistons moved unless I took my thumb away, the pistons were less than 0.001" than the bore.


Okay I tried to do the same with mine and the pistons started slowly running down and falling out, even though my thumb was covering the hole.


Blogwitch said:


> I think it all depends on which version you have built. The first  version (mine) calls for cast iron cylinder (or stainless steel) and  piston whereas the later version calls for a stainless cylinder with  graphite piston. Which version is yours?


What is the difference between the first and later version, despite the material that is used for the cylinder?



Journeyman said:


> There are some close ups at the end which may help with burner placement.


Beautiful little engine you've got there!  What kind of fuel did you use, until now I tried it with "burning sprit" which I think isn't the right choice is it?








What do you guys think about the position and length of my wick? And by the way thanks for your answers:thumbup: It really helps me because I'd love to get that engine running!

Michael


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## Journeyman (Jul 11, 2016)

Hi Michael
Looking at your burner I would guess that the wick tube is too high and that some cool air is entering the port from the bottom. All of the engines I have seen, there are loads on U-Tube, seem to have a long wick that starts something more than 6mm below the port and extends the same distance above. The wick needs to be straight and fit flat to the port face. It is very temperamental about positioning. It took me ages to find the sweet spot.
The fuel I use is Bio-Ethanol, which I got from Amazon. Sold by garden centres as well. Claims to be 95% Denaturized Ethanol. It is clear, no dye, and burns very cleanly you can hardly see the flame. As you can't see in the video! Notice that every time I move it the speed alters as the flame moves about.
Good Luck, John


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## Cogsy (Jul 12, 2016)

orangeray said:


> What is the difference between the first and later version, despite the material that is used for the cylinder?


 
I think the bore size was originally 18mm but the second version has a 22mm bore. Not sure about the first version but for the second it was recommended to use graphite for the pistons, which is what I used. Here's a video of mine. It was my first engine build. See how the speed changes from a very slight adjustment of the flame about halfway through the video.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsqjzybN9Pc[/ame]


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## Blogwitch (Jul 12, 2016)

Like everyone else has said, you need to lengthen your wick and get it lower and closer. The killer for these engines is allowing cold air to be sucked into the engine, you need to smother that flame inlet with flame, and nothing else.

BTW, I use glass fibre for my wicks, it lasts much longer than cotton wicks and can usually be obtained from department stores that sell the spirit based garden lights.

John


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## orangeray (Jul 18, 2016)

Hey

So it finally happened, yesterday I had time to run the engine again, I remade the pistons with brass and adjusted the wick as you said and it worked on its own for some time:thumbup: (The position of the flamme really is all this engine's about)
Afterwards I wanted to show it my dad but I couldn't get it to work anymore, so I guess from now on I'll have to do some fine adjustements here and there but I hope I'll get it to run smoothly as yours do.

Thanks again for your help, I'll post a video as soon as I'll get it to run smoothly.

Michael


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