# Model sized nuts



## oldengineguy (Oct 14, 2021)

Where can you buy model size nuts that look right on small engines? I am looking for 4-40 &6-32 in particular but could use other sizes if available. Thanks  Colin


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 14, 2021)

Go to mcmaster carr's website and search for nuts. They have nuts in many different styles like hex, square, acorn. There are nuts that have a smaller hex than standard. Also they have thinner than standard. all kinds.


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## Gordon (Oct 14, 2021)

McMaster Carr has narrow hex nuts which are smaller than the standard hex.


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## joerom (Oct 14, 2021)

American Model Engineering – Godshall's Custom Machining & Live Steam (godshallscustommachining.com)


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## trlvn (Oct 14, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> Where can you buy model size nuts that look right on small engines? I am looking for 4-40 &6-32 in particular but could use other sizes if available. Thanks  Colin


You might want to check Spaenaur in Kitchener, ON.  They have an extensive selection of hardware.  For example, they have 4-40 hex nuts in steel, brass, stainless steel and aluminum with 2 sizes (across the flats) and 2 thicknesses.  Although not all combinations and permutations:



			https://spaenaur.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Hex-Nuts-C2-C15.pdf
		


I believe they sell small quantities at their counter but I've never actually done that.

Craig


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## GregNixon (Oct 15, 2021)

If you really want nuts to look authentic then look at the BA range. Unfortunately these are now being or have been phased out.  The nice thing about BA is it scales up and down by a fixed fraction.  That means a 0BA screw/nut will have the same look as a 2BA screw nut. 

I have seen charts that attempt to replace BA with metric, unc, unef etc.  It just doesn't work well.  If you have the plans for Westbury's Whippet, have a look at where the head bolts are.  BA fits nicely but substitutes run very close to the water jacket.

BA was a metric based. OBA is 6x1.0mm.  I used to have the Whippet modelled up in Inventor, I'll have a look for it.


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## methuselah1 (Oct 15, 2021)

Shipping shouldn't cost too much. BA is still very much alive in England, and Reeves 2000 sells fasteners of this type. They are made on sliding head automatic lathes, and their quality is a cut above what you can usually buy. They also sell "model engineers' special set screws" which are bolts with a hex head one size smaller.

Taps and dies can be bought readily from many suppliers here; I use a firm called Chronos. They sell high speed steel as well as carbon steel threading tackle; I use the latter, and I can buy a set of three taps and a die for less money than a pack of cigarettes. Carbon steel, if it doesn't get hot, is actually harder than HSS, and as a bonus, it's cheaper, too.

Reeves have been established since the beginning of time, and are the "go to" source for the majority of model locomotive builders in the UK. Chronos started up in the mid 1980s, and I remember when their shop was two garden sheds hidden behind a backstreet. They have since gone from strength to strength, in no small part due the the owners attention to customer service. Dispatch from either of these companies is PROMPT.

Usual disclaimers, of course.

Andrew UK.


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## davidyat (Oct 15, 2021)

*I've gotten most of my bolts and screws from Bolt Depot. 

boltdepot.com

Grasshopper*


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## GreenTwin (Oct 15, 2021)

I have purchased model bolts in the past, but the supplier went out of business.

I bought some hex stock, and started making my own bolts and nuts.
I generally make the bolt head or nut significally taller than a store-bought nut, because the old fasteners were quite a bit taller than modern ones.

STANDARD HEX STOCK
3/16"  0.1875"
7/32"  0.21875"
1/4"  0.250"
5/16"  0.3125"
3/8"  0.375"
7/16"  0.4375"
1/2"  0.50"
9/16"  0.5625" 
5/8"    0.625"
11/16" 0.6875"
3/4"     0.75"
13/16"    0.8125"
7/8"     0.875"
15/16"    0.9375"
1"   1.0"

I mount the hex in the lathe, drill with the appropriate tap size drill, tap deep enough for two nuts, and then part off, rounding the top slightly before parting.  The bottom of the nut is flat.
Its pretty easy.

In the second photo, the nut on the far left is a commerical unit.












My hex stock.
I seem to recall it is free-machining material, which I guess means it has lead in it.


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## GreenTwin (Oct 15, 2021)

I made some bolts from the same hex stock by turning a blank the desired length of the bolt, threading the blank part, and then parting off the bolt head in the same fashion as parting off the nuts.
Bolts are also pretty easy to make.

Here are some nuts installed.
The taller nuts with the flat bottom give an old-school look to a model, if you are after that sort of look.





.


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## GreenTwin (Oct 15, 2021)

I was looking for the exact numbers that I used to make nuts and bolts for the above engine, and I am not positive of the exact numbers, but I think it was as follows.  You can play around with the bolt head size; it is not critical, and also play around with the bolt head/nut height to suit your tastes.
Check me on these numbers; I can't find my official sheet.

_5-40,  0.123" diameter shaft  (I use 3/16" stock hex, 0.188") (not sure of the head height)

6-32, 0.134" diameter shaft, 0.10" head height (I use 7/32" stock hex stock, 0.218")

8-32, 0.166" diameter shaft, 0.125" head height (I use 1/4" stock hex, 0.25")

10-32, 0.186" diameter shaft, 0.147" head height (I use 5/16" hex stock (0.312").

  #12  bolt/nut,  I use 3/8" (0.374").

1/4" bolt/nut, I use 7/16" (0.436").

Edit:_
For some of the bolts/nuts, you could probaby vary one hex size, if you want a slightly larger or smaller nut/bolt head for a given shaft size.

.


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## RandyK (Oct 15, 2021)

Try Micro Fasteners


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## comstock-friend (Oct 15, 2021)

Here is a chart I put together for bolts and washers. The hex size and height is from Godshalls (dimensions in inches):

*Model Hardware*​
*Model Hex Cap Screws*​*Scale Washers*​*Drilling*​

SizeHex UsedHead HeightWasher LandOutside DiameterDecimalThicknessClearanceTap DrillPercentage#0-803/32”0.04001/8"0.1250.015"1/16"3/64"97#1-727/64”0.05505/32"0.1560.020"485390#2-561/8”0.06403/16"0.1880.025"435085#3-485/32”0.0750.0037/32"0.2190.030"384680#4-4011/64”0.0840.0041/4"0.2500.035"334385#5-403/16”0.0930.0059/32"0.2810.040"303887#6-327/32”0.1040.0065/16"0.3130.045"283583#8-32¼”0.1250.00611/32"0.3440.050"192983#10-329/32”0.1400.0073/8"0.3750.055"112484

And yes, I've replaced BA hardware that came with my Stuart kits with hardware based on this chart. They look better (to me).


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 15, 2021)

I think you might have to make your own if you are looking for an exact scale nut or bolt. They can be easy to make and you will be much happier when finished.


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## oldengineguy (Oct 15, 2021)

Thank  you all for reply & suggestions. Unfortunately Mc . Carr ,Spae- Naur  et.al. only supply nuts that are min .187 af and to look right they need to be .170. I have made nuts & bolts in the past and had hoped to avoid doing that in this case. I need 50. I can't find 11/64 hex rod from the usual suppliers anyway. The only lead  that has panned out is joerom  American model Engineering, they list what I need. By the time I get them here in CDN.$ they will cost about a buck apiece! It may be time to re-think this project. Thanks again,Colin


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## petertha (Oct 15, 2021)

If you reside in Canada, 99% chance you can stroke McMaster Carr off your list anyways. Its awesome for our American friends but their out-of-country policy for many years has been to ship only to businesses & institutions, not hobbyist mortals. Not even if you say I'm after $500 worth of whatever. They say they cant be bothered with the customs paperwork. There are some I've heard of who have mitigated this, but my guess is some form of oversight &  just a matter of time.

I've heard good things about Spaenaur in Canada. They have an extensive catalog. But it seems to be a somewhat convoluted ordering process. There does not seem to be the equivalent of populating an online shopping cart & click buy. I think its forth & back emails which is about 20 years behind the times. I thought this maybe result of pandemic conditions, but actually could be their sales model. If I'm wrong, please somebody correct me. I'd love to give them business.


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## oldengineguy (Oct 15, 2021)

petertha : I am fortunate enough to live 30 KM. from Spae Naur and have dealt with their counter staff for years,but don't know about their shipping first hand. They deliver locally next day ,and I know they ship to U.S.  I order by phone for pick-up ,always ready on time, no hassles. BUT this time around they don't have what I need. I have a friend with a business that deals with Mc Carr but they also cannot supply needs. Godshalls American model Engineering has all the stuff Ineed , I just have to decide if I need it badly enough. $$$$$  Colin


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## abby (Oct 15, 2021)

Finding the correct steel hex stock for small scale nuts and bolts is becoming difficult because mills no longer produce the exact sizes , you could try hex socket keys , anneal them and use the steel. As already said the BA range will provide most scale requirements but even these are becoming more expensive for the reason I mentioned.
I recently talked with a well known UK manufacturer and they are using hex steel that has been milled to size rather than cold drawn.
Dan.


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## dazz (Oct 16, 2021)

petertha said:


> If you reside in Canada, 99% chance you can stroke McMaster Carr off your list anyways. Its awesome for our American friends but their out-of-country policy for many years has been to ship only to businesses & institutions, not hobbyist mortals. Not even if you say I'm after $500 worth of whatever. They say they cant be bothered with the customs paperwork. There are some I've heard of who have mitigated this, but my guess is some form of oversight &  just a matter of time.


McMaster is worse than that.  I use a freight forwarder that has a US address.  Sellers ship to it without needing to know that the item will be exported to my country.  That worked great with McMaster until I went to pay with my credit card.  McMaster refused to accept it (their right), so the excuse they give about customs documentation is just that, an excuse.


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## OscarII (Oct 16, 2021)

GregNixon said:


> If you really want nuts to look authentic then look at the BA range. Unfortunately these are now being or have been phased out.  The nice thing about BA is it scales up and down by a fixed fraction.  That means a 0BA screw/nut will have the same look as a 2BA screw nut.
> 
> I have seen charts that attempt to replace BA with metric, unc, unef etc.  It just doesn't work well.  If you have the plans for Westbury's Whippet, have a look at where the head bolts are.  BA fits nicely but substitutes run very close to the water jacket.
> 
> BA was a metric based. OBA is 6x1.0mm.  I used to have the Whippet modelled up in Inventor, I'll have a look for it.


While 0BA is the same size as 6 x 1.0mm, the thread profiles are different so they are not interchangeable


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## dazz (Oct 16, 2021)

BA Fasteners were widely used, especially in electrical equipment.   They are still readily available. 
BA tap and die sets are still available new.


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## Nick Worrall (Oct 16, 2021)

Kennions, Stuart models and EKP are all based in the UK. They all stock really good quality bolts etc. and their shipping is quite fast.


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## petertha (Oct 16, 2021)

dazz said:


> I use a freight forwarder that has a US address.  Sellers ship to it without needing to know that the item will be exported to my country.  That worked great with McMaster until I went to pay with my credit card.  McMaster refused to accept it (their right), so the excuse they give about customs documentation is just that, an excuse.



Been there, done that. And even with a USA based CC, I've heard of cancelled order/account by them checking web domain origin. Who knows what the real reason is. Maybe reduced profit on foreign orders or maybe they got their knuckles wrapped with customs. Bottom line is its their decision. Frustrating because they are such a good 1-stop shopping resource. I'm surprised in the modern, hungry world of passive income, drop shipping, Ebay/Amazon fulfilment, yada-yada some enterprising individuals hasn't figured out an opportunity here. If Joe sends me a bag of MMC bolts, there is no customs issues. If MMC sends me the same thing, apparently that's an issue. My engine design is metric so actually solved a lot of problems when it came to fasteners, bearings, gears, materials etc. That means alternative sources from Europe, Asia, wherever. Money flows to where its most appreciated.


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## TubeTech (Oct 16, 2021)

methuselah1 said:


> Shipping shouldn't cost too much. BA is still very much alive in England, and Reeves 2000 sells fasteners of this type. They are made on sliding head automatic lathes, and their quality is a cut above what you can usually buy. They also sell "model engineers' special set screws" which are bolts with a hex head one size smaller.
> 
> Taps and dies can be bought readily from many suppliers here; I use a firm called Chronos. They sell high speed steel as well as carbon steel threading tackle; I use the latter, and I can buy a set of three taps and a die for less money than a pack of cigarettes. Carbon steel, if it doesn't get hot, is actually harder than HSS, and as a bonus, it's cheaper, too.
> 
> ...


And in Australia the go to place is EJWinter.com.au. They have a good online catalog and they ship fast.
DF


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## Harglo (Oct 17, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> Where can you buy model size nuts that look right on small engines? I am looking for 4-40 &6-32 in particular but could use other sizes if available. Thanks  Colin


Mico Fasteners in Easten PA 800 892-6917. They offer a vast supply of small quantities from 0-80 up up. Encluding the scale model nuts your asking about. Are you in the US?
Harvey


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## L98fiero (Oct 17, 2021)

petertha said:


> Been there, done that. And even with a USA based CC, I've heard of cancelled order/account by them checking web domain origin. Who knows what the real reason is. Maybe reduced profit on foreign orders or maybe they got their knuckles wrapped with customs. Bottom line is its their decision. Frustrating because they are such a good 1-stop shopping resource. I'm surprised in the modern, hungry world of passive income, drop shipping, Ebay/Amazon fulfilment, yada-yada some enterprising individuals hasn't figured out an opportunity here. If Joe sends me a bag of MMC bolts, there is no customs issues. If MMC sends me the same thing, apparently that's an issue. My engine design is metric so actually solved a lot of problems when it came to fasteners, bearings, gears, materials etc. That means alternative sources from Europe, Asia, wherever. Money flows to where its most appreciated.


My understanding is that a couple of decades ago McMaster-Carr got a 6 figure fine for not filling out the required paperwork for export, the result was that they stopped shipping to anything but registered businesses and educational institutes though there may be other exceptions.


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## SmithDoor (Oct 17, 2021)

FYI
If you do tapping 2-56 is about smallest you would want to tap.
Below 2-56 lead screw tapping work the best.

Dave



oldengineguy said:


> Where can you buy model size nuts that look right on small engines? I am looking for 4-40 &6-32 in particular but could use other sizes if available. Thanks  Colin


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## oldengineguy (Oct 17, 2021)

Smith Door:  2-56  is HUGE. I have built Doug Kelleys Snow that has 0-80 tapped into steel. 32 of them. Never broke a tap. Harglo  : Micro fasteners does not list model size nuts in any listing I could find .  Thanks Colin


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## OscarII (Oct 18, 2021)

To add to the list of suppliers of BA nuts, bolts and washers, Hobby Mechanics  (hobbymechanics.com.au) have a very large range. 
Their range is larger than E J Winter, mentioned in earlier posts.


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## nealeb (Oct 18, 2021)

If you are ordering from Europe anyway, these guys are good for model-size (i.e. reduced head) items.


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## Harglo (Oct 18, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> Smith Door:  2-56  is HUGE. I have built Doug Kelleys Snow that has 0-80 tapped into steel. 32 of them. Never broke a tap. Harglo  : Micro fasteners does not list model size nuts in any listing I could find .  Thanks Colin



They call them small pattern nuts. Not sure what a scale model nut should be vs a normal size.
Harvey


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## ozzie46 (Oct 18, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> My understanding is that a couple of decades ago McMaster-Carr got a 6 figure fine for not filling out the required paperwork for export, the result was that they stopped shipping to anything but registered businesses and educational institutes though there may be other exceptions.


I get orders from them and I have a residential address.
Live in Colorado, USA
Ron


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## L98fiero (Oct 18, 2021)

ozzie46 said:


> I get orders from them and I have a residential address.
> Live in Colorado, USA
> Ron


The issue is in them exporting to Canada, etc. 
I can order them from a Canadian residential address too, but then I run a registered business from home.


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## SmithDoor (Oct 18, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> The issue is in them exporting to Canada, etc.
> I can order them from a Canadian residential address too, but then I run a registered business from home.


I have never problem ordering. 
But I have found lower cost suppliers. 
From Amazon to Surplus Center
Even auto suppliers too.

Dave


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## Richard Carlstedt (Oct 18, 2021)

You can't go wrong with this supplier
Godshalls , American Model Engineering Supplies , and they will be at the Cabin Fever Show 
_





						American Model Engineering
					

1.6



					godshallscustommachining.com
				



_Go to page 4 
If you or some of your friends will be in Pennsylvania for the show in January , they can pick up some screws and nuts for you 
I gave them an order for a friend of mine  and picked up the screws at the show, the next day .
I have met quite a few fellows from Canada when I was there 

I make my own,  in fact have made hundreds in steel and brass  ( to 1 mm ) but
I have two Geometric Heads and a home made bolt maker  so it's fairly easy for me , along with a 
supply of hex stock bought years ago 
Rich


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## ozzie46 (Oct 18, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> I have never problem ordering.
> But I have found lower cost suppliers.
> From Amazon to Surplus Center
> Even auto suppliers too.
> ...


Didn't know you ran a business, I don't run a business.
Ron

Ooops meant for L98fiero.


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 18, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> I have never problem ordering.
> But I have found lower cost suppliers.
> From Amazon to Surplus Center
> Even auto suppliers too.
> ...



Yes there are cheaper but some of the lower cost places sell cheaper hardware. They are often soft and the heads strip out much easier. Most of the stuff I purchase from them meet specific specs and are higher quality in size tolerance and material. They have to be abused for a while before they strip. Simply put, the hex key fits better, the material is harder, and the threads fit better. I would rather spend 3 bucks a hundred more and not have to try to drill a stripped screw out of a part I just spent 11 hours making.   

Look up ASTM A574


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## SmithDoor (Oct 18, 2021)

The company name is Smith Door. I sold the company in 2004.
When buy parts I had to look everywhere. 
The odds place I purchased was Pep Boys buy the front wheel bearing on Ford car. They had sale with no limits and cheaper than my supplier. 

Dave



ozzie46 said:


> Didn't know you ran a business, I don't run a business.
> Ron
> 
> Ooops meant for L98fiero.


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## L98fiero (Oct 19, 2021)

Richard Carlstedt said:


> You can't go wrong with this supplier
> Godshalls , American Model Engineering Supplies , and they will be at the Cabin Fever Show
> _
> 
> ...


A home made bolt maker? Can you elaborate a bit?


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## Richard Carlstedt (Oct 20, 2021)

Tool I made 20 years ago. It was based on a friends project  after he saw one which
I think was  in Modeltec magazine  Here are some pictures.  The unit is a box tool of sorts

















By having different bushings, I can do hex stock, Square stock  ( for sq bolts ) or round stock
In the picture you can see some threaded sq stock.

In operation, I feed stock into the tool and it reduces diameter to thread Size and length .
Then I withdraw the tool while the Lathe is still running  and place the die holder ( and die) on the
front boss and feed the tool back into the stock while holding the knurled die holder.
The stock is quick threaded  and I release the Die holder when the thread needed is achieved.
My hand being a clutch . Stop Lathe and reverse  and I pull the die holder off.
Now I can use a Parting tool to separate the finished bolt, but I prefer to do it in "sticks"
That is, do both ends of the stock  and maybe do 6 sticks that way .
Then set the Lathe for parting off a bolt -one stick at a time ...much faster
The square stock in the picture is a "stick"
Rich


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## maybach_man (Oct 20, 2021)

Tracey tools is excellent for all types of taps and dies in the uk.


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## L98fiero (Oct 20, 2021)

Richard Carlstedt said:


> Tool I made 20 years ago. It was based on a friends project  after he saw one which
> I think was  in Modeltec magazine  Here are some pictures.  The unit is a box tool of sorts
> 
> View attachment 130179
> ...


Thanks for the pictures and description, that's a nice tool and would definitely make bolt making a lot easier and with the depth stop, more productive, now the issue would be to find the hex stock of the correct size.


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## Richard Carlstedt (Nov 11, 2021)

I forgot to mention in my earlier post, That when I am using round stock.
I make my 'Sticks" threaded on both ends and do maybe 6 sticks.  Then I mount
the stick in a 5 C  collet Block ( Hex )  and then use the mill to cut a flat. leave the mill height locked
and do not change it, just drop the block in the vise, (clamp) and feed the table in/out and then rotate and repeat. That way I can do custom head sizes for 12 bolts pretty quickly . then I pass the stick against a Scotchbrite wheel to clean up the flats and remove any tool marks and that puts a micro radius on the Hex corners.  Then part in the lathe 
Rich


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## dnalot (Nov 11, 2021)

I get most of my fasteners from McMaster Carr but when I need really small nuts or machine screws with hex head i go to Micro Fasteners. Just ordered some 1-72 nuts and needed a 7/64 wrench, McMaster had the wrench and Micro had the nuts and bolts.

Mark


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## David Morrow (Nov 20, 2021)

oldengineguy said:


> Where can you buy model size nuts that look right on small engines? I am looking for 4-40 &6-32 in particular but could use other sizes if available. Thanks  Colin



I see that you are in Canada; me too. I live in Vancouver and we have a local company called Pacific Fasteners in Burnaby. They specialize in stainless steel hardware but I believe they have other metals. I order all of my model sized hardware and larger from them. I do it all by email. They don't have a current catalog but they have never told me that they didn't have what I have requested. I usually order 50 to 100 of just about everything so I'm never short. It's way cheaper than buying ones and twos or those ubiquitous packages of 5 at the retail store. I have several drawers full of #2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 nuts, washers, set screws, socket head and button head cap screws. I do everything by email and they just give it to Canada Post and saves me a trip across the city. Contact Keith : [email protected] . I just email my list in point form and be as explicit as you can and he'll get back to you within a day or so.


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## portlandron (Nov 21, 2021)

If you don't want to make them yourself then second vote for American Model Engineering.

Have tried Mcmaster and MIcro and they are not to a scale that looks good.
American are scaled and look good.


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## David Shealey (Nov 22, 2021)

I have ordered BA screws and  nuts from:  BA Fasteners, Imperial Fasteners, Micro Metric Stainless, Small Screws, UNC Square Nuts, Ba Screws, Ba Bolts,
Very reasonable postage costs, ship quickly, and great variety. They also have imperial sizes.


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