# Magic Coins



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi guys,

I was in a magic store (an ordinary store selling magic tricks) and saw something called an expanded shell coin. In essence it is a silver half dollar (they had quarters and other coins too) that somehow has been cut out and then stretched so that it fits over an ordinary silver half dollar. With some clever manipulation and misdirection feats that look like miracles can be shown.

Now I am not a magician (neither am I a machinist) but I was wondering, how would one make a coin like that?

The outside of the coin was still knurled yet it was larger in diameter so that it fit over a regular coin. 

I can figure out the "cutting out" part, but how do you "expand" a coin?

Any ideas how this is accomplished?

Curiosity is killing me.


Here is a link to one of those - there are literally hundreds of manufacturers.

http://www.johnsonmagicproducts.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=44


Thanks

excelfreak


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't think its a modified coin, but rather a fabricated coin.


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't think it is fabricated - the coins looked perfect - and they had numerous varieties, quarters, Kennedy halfs, Walking Liberty, Morgans - it would take a real expert to copy a coin. Casting doesn't produce this fine detail, e.g. you could clearly see each feather on the eagle. Very very fine detail.


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 24, 2013)

I can think of no manufacturing process that can uniformly stretch the existing surface contour of a coin.

If they look perfect, then they are probably stamped out of Cu-Ni plated copper sheet, just like regular coins are. . .


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

I agree - I cannot think of any manufacturing process either, hence my question. However, I am convinced they were modified. Since they have different coins you would think they all cost the same, but they don't! A Kennedy half from 64 (which is silver) costs more than a quarter (accounting for using an actual coin as raw material). A silver Morgan costs even more as the base coin is more expensive.

Wouldn't it also be cost prohibitive (and unlawful) to make those dies to stamp the coins? Given that this is a magic gimmick and they will not sell 100,000's of them?


Perhaps someone knows.


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 24, 2013)

Silver coins are very malleable.  Take a look at these coin rings:

http://www.etsy.com/shop/SpiritualFlyer

I'm thinking that with a plastic faced hammer, the right dies and a bit of practice, it wouldn't be too difficult.


----------



## John Rus (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't think they are modified coins, and I'm pretty sure that's illegal anyway. But don't quote me on that.

But to scan a coin and enlarge it a hair and stamp out one doesn't seem that hard. It would be interesting to know how they make them.

I googled a couple of videos and they can pull off some pretty slick tricks whith those!

John.


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't wear finger jewelry, but those rings are cool. All the detail is still preserved, that's pretty amazing. I would have thought by deforming it to such a degree it would be just plain metal at this point. 

Damn, now I want to know how they make those too.... ;-) although the engravings kind of give it away. They probably drill a hole and then pound it on a tapered mandrel. 

But how would you stretch a coin?

If you hammered the coin flat - which would make it increase in diameter - its thickness would be less. So if you subsequently cut out something so that it could slip over another coin it would not cover the coin completely. The ones I saw did. These "shells" where larger in diameter and height to conceal a regular coin. 

Mysterious......


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 24, 2013)

I just did some googling of expanded shell coins and how to make them. It's pretty clear that they are real coins that are, indeed, expanded.  There is one person I found who is selling plans, and says a lathe is required. I'm guessing that they hollow out the coin first, machine an anvil to be a press fit in the machined hole, and then give it a whack with a plastic or leather faced mallet.  May have to repeat a few times with slightly larger diameter anvils, and may have to anneal the coin to get it to expand without ripping.  Very similar process to how the coin rings are made.


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 24, 2013)

oh, and as to legality, I researched this when I was doing coin rings.  Not illegal to modify a coin unless you are doing it to defraud someone.


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 24, 2013)

If they are modified coins, someone knows how to make them. . . .


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

hopefully someone who frequents this forum.... ;-)


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 24, 2013)

There are some magic forums too, where people discuss these things, but they are all so dang secretive and proprietary.


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 24, 2013)

Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, section 331 of the US Code states:


"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or 
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened&#8212; Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."


I'm not a lawyer. That being said, I see two ways to read this.

(1) you cannot fraudulently mutilate a coin
or
(2) you cannot mutilate a coin.

Either way, you can bet I'd be seeking legal advise prior to modifying any US coin for profit. . . .


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 24, 2013)

they are allowed to be secretive about their craft and their illusions
this is purely a "how do they make this item" kind of question

Paulsv - where did you find the guy that sells the plans? I have been googling this for days and not found anything but retailers and tricks. Do you have the link? I would like to look around there.


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 25, 2013)

Entropy

I'm no lawyer either, but I think the "fraudulently" applies to all subsequent words. 

Making a ring out of a coin is not a fraud - but art. Similarly making a trick coin for a magician is not fraudulent either. I think what they meant is - don't melt coins down for metal value - or shave stuff off - or take a silver slug and imprint a higher denomination.

Furthermore, all these folks are still in business - i.e. have not been shut down - so I guess its ok.


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 25, 2013)

But what happens to the metal that is machined away from the expanded shell? Wouldn't it be unlawful to recover and profit from that shaved away silver?

Just playing devils advocate :hDe:

An expanded shell coin has been defaced - in that one face of the coin was literally removed.

An expanded shell coin has been lightened - in that a significant amount of material was removed. 

An expanded shell coin has been scaled - in that the size of the coin has been enlarged.

It's reasonable to say that an expanded shell coin has been mutilated.

You could also say that the coin has been impaired, and diminished.

Here's where it gets interesting - you could even make the case that the alteration was done with the intention to commit fraud - aka to deceive -as deception is the root of all magic tricks, right?

After giving it more thought, I agree with your assessment - in that modifying a coin for a magic trick is probably legal. Mainly because the coin is being sold for significantly more than face value - it is not being spent for a false value.

Also consider those penny smashing machines that you see at science museums - those appear to be factory manufactured legal devices, intended to deface US coins for profit. . . .


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 25, 2013)

now that we got the legality clarified lets refocus on the puzzle at hand ;-)

how do they make them


----------



## Entropy455 (Oct 25, 2013)

Here&#8217;s how I think it&#8217;s done.

Step 1: machine socket into back of coin.

Step 1.1: heat coin and quench to anneal.

Step 2: place coin over an expandable mandrel. (similar to what&#8217;s used to expand exhaust tubing &#8211; however this mandrel is made to grip within the shallow depth of a coin.)

Step 3: slowly expand coin.

Step 3.1: heat coin and quench to anneal again, if unable to reach desired diameter with one plastic deformation (cracking).

Step 3.2: continue expanding coin to achieve new diameter.

Step 4: touch-up machine the socket for a final fit.

I think we&#8217;ve got it!


----------



## abby (Oct 25, 2013)

The lost wax casting process is easily capable of reproducing coin detail , the "secret" is how to make a pattern that is larger than real.
There are pattern plasters that expand on setting , this is one method that could be used. Injecting wax under pressure into a flexible mould could also be used.
I have some experience in the latter and it does work.


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 25, 2013)

Here is a website of a machinist of magic appliances.  He sells some plans, including a "scotch and soda" coin set.  Now that I look at it again, I'm not sure that set includes an expanded coin.  

http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/JamesRiserMagic.html

Entrpy, I think your last post is right on or very close. I had thought of expanding mandrels, but suggested a series of press fit mandrels that the coin would be struck onto with a plastic mallet.  I was thinking that the metal would be easier to stretch by striking, but then again, ring stretchers work well with just pressure.  Multiple annealings would ce important to prevent cracking, and to make the metal easlier to move, just as when making a coin ring.  Once the coin has been stretched in diameter, it could be put onto a close fitting mandrel, and the sides could be stretched in height by striking with a plastic mallet.  

If you can't find plans, spend a few afternoons in the shop experimenting.  Nothing to lose but a few coins and a little time. When I did coins, I had a hard time learning how to anneal the coins without. Defacing them. It takes a deft touch with a torch.  

Finally, on the legal issue, I am a lawyer, and have been for 40 years. When I read that statute, I take it to mean that the prosecutor would have to prove that you had an intent to defraud someone.  Defrauding someone is more than just tricking them. You have to be tricking them into giving you money or some other advantage that they wouldn't otherwise have given. A magician performs illusions for entertainment. The audience pays for the entertainment, and thus gets what it intended to pay for.


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 25, 2013)

Paul

thanks for the link

Paul & Entropy

thanks for the conceptual rundown of the process

I don't know if I'll make one - seems like a lot of work and specialized tools that would have to be made, especially the "stretcher". For the little price they charge its way easier to just buy one. Mostly I just wanted to know how it could be done as I had no idea how one could/would expand a coin.


----------



## Forestgnome (Oct 28, 2013)

I've had lots of magic coins in my hands, and can say with certainty most of them are made from real coins.


----------



## Henry (Oct 28, 2013)

Tho deform the coins is pretty easy, I have been done that with my children like a way to start learning jewelry.... They learn how to use the saw, the torch, annealing, dies and the stretcher.

Example: the rings are done cutting an inside circle .... you keep the letters and numbers, then you start to deform them with this tool   if it is done carefully the letters and number still clear.
You will finish it with the rings stretcher, every step annealing and quenching. is a great way to teach to the children and them get something cool.

Other "cool " thing with coins is to do a little jewelry box, two coins (quarters) become half spheres with the first tool, with a piece of tube you do the hinge and a smaller coin (dime) made also half sphere welded under the other two up side down for a foot. Then you can get crazy... an eagle for a coin, a head for other..... 
*
*


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 29, 2013)

I got started on coins by making "dished nickel" drawer pulls for a toolbox.  Dish some Indian head nickels ( I used a steel ball and a die I made on the lathe, and dished them with a single hammer blow) then cut and thread a stem from nickel silver rod, and silver solder it to the back of the dished nickel to make a drawer pull. Can be done with silver quarters for a larger pull, or a cabinet door knob.


----------



## John Rus (Oct 29, 2013)

Entropy455 said:


> Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, section 331 of the US Code states:
> 
> 
> "Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
> ...



It seams to me that you cannot do any of the above wether fraudulent or not. The second part does not state anything about fraudulentcy and it implies that you will get fined, jail time or both for basically messing up a coin. The penny smashers that I have seen don't use real pennies but copper blanks the size of pennies for you souvenirs.

Just my two cents,
John.


----------



## mcostello (Oct 29, 2013)

Here in the USA, if one would go to a State park,they might find a machine that squeezes a penny down into an oval shape(for a quarter). If it was illegal to do I don't think the machine would show up there.


----------



## Alchymist (Oct 29, 2013)

John Rus said:


> It seams to me that you cannot do any of the above wether fraudulent or not. The second part does not state anything about fraudulentcy and it implies that you will get fined, jail time or both for basically messing up a coin. The penny smashers that I have seen don't use real pennies but copper blanks the size of pennies for you souvenirs.
> 
> Just my two cents,
> John.



This has been hashed over many times in the jewelry and coin forums - as long as there is no intent to alter a coin to make it worth less than face value and pass it off... or to make it appear worth more than face value ( ie, altering date or mint marks), it is legal to alter coins to make something in the way of jewelry or other "decorations".


----------



## Paulsv (Oct 30, 2013)

"*Whoever fraudulently* alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or

*Whoever* *fraudulently* possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened 

*Shall be fined* under this title *or imprisoned* not more than five years, or both."


It's pretty clear.  The statute describes the people who can be fined or imprisoned as "*Whoever fraudulently*" engages in certain actions.  If you do not *fraudulently* do those things, you can't be fined or imprisoned.


----------



## excelfreak (Oct 30, 2013)

Guys,

I wasn't aware that there are so many who are concerned about the legality of this endeavor. Surely none of those posting paragraphs of legal gibberish have ever gone over the speed limit or, god forbid, operated a vehicle after having a glass of beer or wine after dinner. Or worst taken some creative deductions on their tax return. 

While I appreciate all your concerns about my pending incarceration I just want to know how it is made and not how legit it is. Purely for educational/machining purposes.

Can we please put the legal aspects to rest. 

So far we only have "hypothetical" approaches how to accomplish the expanding coin. Has anybody actually made one and can share his methods?


----------



## Mad Jake Jr. (Oct 20, 2018)

First, it is NOT illegal to manufacture coins for magic purposes.  This has been going on since the 18th century until present. You must possess some sort of engineering skills, a precision lathe, and for the stretching I created and machined my own tool to expand the coin in 3 easy moves.

Scotch and Sodas generally don't use an expanded shell, but an easier process that enables a locking method.  Nesting coins are even easier to make.

Mad Jake Jr.
MJJ Magic Mfg.
www.airshipmagic.com


----------



## corky (Oct 20, 2018)

Here you go


----------

