# HM45 help needed



## Cogsy (Sep 4, 2012)

I have recently purchased a used Hafco HM45 mill/drill from a deceased estate and I have almost no idea how to use it (it didn't come with a manual).

It's got a drill chuck mounted in it at the moment, but I need to change it out for the collet chuck. The problem is, I don't know how to remove the drill chuck. Hopefully someone has some experience with these units and can shed some light.

I'll have some other questions soon too, as some of the assorted accessories that came with it are a mystery to me as well.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## metalmad (Sep 4, 2012)

Hi Al
I have a similar HM48 with a m3 taper 
I find I have to undo the draw bar at the top a couple of turns and then give it a tap to separate and then remove the draw bar.
make sure you hold the drill chuck when you undo the draw bar 
The top of the draw bar may be covered with a plastic cover held on by two screws.
Pete


----------



## ELM6061 (Sep 4, 2012)

G'day Al and welcome to the forum, only a new Aussie member as well.

Not sure if the HM45 is the same (re how your chuck is mounted) as my HM50 but assume they will be.

The chuck is held in place with a "Draw Bar". The draw bar passes all the way through your spindle and into the top of of your tapered arbor that the chuck will be attached to.
To  remove look/feel on the top of your machine, above the spindle (machine turned off) and you should find what appears to be the top of a large bolt (the "draw bar"). Holding your chuck tight, begin to loosen the draw bar about 1 to 2 full turns and then give the top of the draw bar a tap with a soft mallet/hammer and that should loosen the tapered arbor from the spindle taper. Once the arbor tapers have separated, just finish unscrewing the draw bar until the tool drops completely out (of course hold on to your tool so it does not drop possibly causing injury or damage).

Supply photo's of your mill and gear, and I am sure you will soon find names and uses for all your stuff. Some darn smart blokes on here (wink).

Eddie


----------



## Cogsy (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks for the help guys. It turns out it's exactly as both of you described, except that I didn't get the draw bar with the machine. I used a bit of ally bar to knock the drill chuck out, but I'm not sure I should be using any chuck without the draw bar, so I won't be doing any more milling til I source one.

Cheers for the help anyway.


----------



## ProdEng (Sep 4, 2012)

Cogsy, Hare and Forbes in Belmont should be able to supply a drawbar.


----------



## metalmad (Sep 4, 2012)

hi Al
you can make a make a draw bar by welding a nut onto a length of booker rod of the needed thread,
glad u got it sorted 
Pete


----------



## ELM6061 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yes glad you got it sorted, took me almost a week to figure mine out. Felt such a dill that it was so simple.
I know very little about these machine's but would definitely say; No do not run your machine without one holding the arbor tight and in place.
Could not see why you could not use some all thread and weld a nut like metalmad mentioned, think hardening may help in longevity. At least it would do until you got the real ma-coy.

So what other goodies did you manage to get with this little beauty?

Eddie


----------



## tomrux (Sep 4, 2012)

pretty sure if you contact Hare and Forbes/machineryhouse they will be able to supply you a copy of the original manual. have always found them easy to deal with and most helpfull.
their site has downloadable manuals for the current model stuff. dont know how different your machine is

Tom R


----------



## Cogsy (Sep 5, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. Not sure if I'll make or buy a bar yet.

I had a long day at work today so I didn't get into the shed at all, but I'll take some photos of my milling goodies tomorrow so ya's can help me identify them.

Cheers


----------



## Cogsy (Sep 6, 2012)

As promised, some pics of my new drill/mill and accessories, and a pic of the bits I'm not sure of.

First, a collet chuck set and gravity coolant system (with 2 bottles for some reason).






Next, a dividing head (I think) and a work holder set.





Dial Indicator with mag base, adj. hand reamers, micrometer, bore gauges, tilting vice, slotting saw, boring head, keyless drill chuck (to fit my lathe), drill chuck, end mills, centre finder and thingies for lining up holes (that's the technical name for them right?)





Now for the ones I'm not sure of...help would be appreciated.





And finally, a big picture of the whole lot together with the mill, and a couple pieces of stock that got thrown in as well.





Thanks for looking and please feel free to correct me on anything I've got wrong. Ta.


----------



## kvom (Sep 6, 2012)

The round things in the green holder are called transfer punches.  The doodads in the blue box appear to be metric countersinks;  the smooth round part is the pilot and goes into the drilled hole, and the flutes cut a larger centered hole for the screw head or nut.  The 6 fluted cutters are also countersinks for taper headed screws (and can also be used for deburring holes after drilling).  And the round black thing is a face mill, but needs an arbor to be useable.


----------



## AussieJimG (Sep 6, 2012)

Hi Cogsy, I have an HM45 mill just like yours and I must say that the tooling that came with it looks pretty comprehensive. I think you will find that you need more collets to cover the range of work. And some cutters as well.

I have recently purchased a number of solid carbide cutters from CTC Tools ( http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/StoreFront  ) on the recommendation of somebody on one of these forums and I have very happy with them.

The other thing I have found useful is an angle plate (right angle).

It's good that you are asking coz I am watching and learning from the replies as well. 

Jim (Bywong, near Canberra)


----------



## ELM6061 (Sep 7, 2012)

Struth Cogsy, that is some nice kit that came with the mill.
@Kvom 

Curious what the "transfer punches" are used for? Are they to transfer alignment from a hole to center the head? I don't get the "punch" bit.

Not having very many tools, has been such a set back for me, more for what I wanted to do. The cost of new, even second hand, is so expensive. You have to be real careful and now your "new" prices looking for used stuff on the online auctions. I have found going to site auctions, but non engineering (just someone with a "bit" of stuff) has been the best, but they are hard to come across.

While a Dividing Head would be nice, I am pretty sure I could get by with just some index plates (want to do some gear cutting), to suit my Vertex rotary table. My lathe had a 4" 3 jaw chuck, inside one of it's cupboards, but it does not fit anything. I thought I could make a back plate with a MT3 taper, so as to get a true center to the rotary table, but then I just could not get the taper perfect. Need some more stock so i can try again. My lathe excepts a proper taper turning attachment, but again the cost is so high, even if I did have the money, I cannot justify the expense (specially to the Minister of Finance)(not sure just how they work either).

Would also love a boring head, a must have I think and will probably be my next purchase. I did see some photo's of a bloke taper turning on his lathe, using a boring head in the tail stock as the taper index and a lathe carrier for holding the work piece to a back plate. Not sure where I saw it now.

Anyway, I have digressed away from what this thread is all about, your kit Cogsy.

Very nice and a very good start to a great hobby.

Ed


----------



## Swifty (Sep 8, 2012)

Ed and Al, the transfer punches are used to spot the centre position from a block with existing holes to another that has to have matching holes drilled. For example, you may have a block with clearance holes to suit a certain screw size and need to transfer the positions to a mounting block where you want to tap a thread to suit. Just clamp the 2 together and use the correct size transfer punch in the existing holes, then give it a tap with your hammer to leave a centre mark ready for drilling and tapping.

Paul.


----------



## Diversion900 (Sep 8, 2012)

Carefully, one of the cutters seems to be inserted wrong way around on the face cutter.


----------



## skyline1 (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi Cogsy

You sure got a well packed goody bag with this one

Regards Mark


----------



## ELM6061 (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks Swifty, make's sense now, pretty handy too I would recon.

Ed


----------



## peter2uat (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi Al, just read your post, (a tad late...) but there is a real nice idea I found on youtube - [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_54ToadfFU0[/ame] - it does away with hammer and spanner.
Wish I had that amount of workshop place you guys have !

Peter


----------



## gus (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi ElM6061.
Devices like fixed steady,rotary Table,boring head cost an arm and a leg to buy.
Made my steady for US10 and rotary table for US$45. Both iteams were urgently required to make parts for "American Pop Corn Engine.With a mini Japanese Sakai Vertical Mill enabled me to expand scope of work. Boring head is next but  a "Dovetail End Mill " is required.
See fotos.Without the steady ,I could not long machine the cross head slide.W/O the rotary table,I could not machine the speed governor frame and sphereical weights.Making your tooling can be very satisfying.


----------



## peter2uat (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi Al,
and here is the user manual to the Rong Fu 45, which should not be too different from the Hafco 45.
Found it on  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mill_drill/files/Manuals/ 

Peter 

View attachment RF 45 Mill-Drill manual.pdf


----------



## Cogsy (Sep 9, 2012)

Excellent info Peter. Thanks heaps!

I do think I'll make a similar drawbar, just got to work out the thread now (but it's probably in the manual anyway)

Cheers,


----------



## ELM6061 (Sep 9, 2012)

@Peter, that slide hammer/hand-wheel looks brilliant, though it does raise a couple of questions/concerns when you run the mill. It sounds as though there is quite a bit of vibration, which I think would be the shaft spinning inside the slide hammer. 
(1) Is there really any vibration?
 and if so;
(2) does this transfer down through the spindle, to the work piece being detrimental to fine finishes?
(3) hard on the bearings?
What are your thoughts and findings?
At the end of the day, as long as the shaft and hand wheel are balanced enough, the slide hammer can just be removed and replaced when needed. Doing this would also save any future wear between the slide hammer and shaft.

I may just try this on my HM50.

@Gus, They are some nice tools you have made Gus and looking at how you have fixed your chuck, has given me an idea on how to fix mine, thanks so much. Shame Al is in WA, those counter sinks in the blue box would be handy.

Ed


----------



## petertha (Sep 10, 2012)

I was also going to chime in that it looked alot like my King RF-45, which was Taiwanese made, at least at the time. The current model looks like this, mine is '98 vintage but I think almost the same.
http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=36&ID=21734

The RF-45 uses R8 spindle tooling though, the HM45 is MT3 did you say?

My z-axis (downfeed) was uselessly innaccurate, I think most everyone with these mill/drills eventually adopts some sort of digital readout gizmo with a vernier retrofit (which I did) or full DRO. The X&Y axis dials were pretty good for accuracy but I ended up putting readouts on that just for sanity. Mine is also a bit of a noisy gearbox rattler. I'm told thats normal but I don't have others to compare against. I just hope its not bearings or gears because I dont feel like digging in there.


----------



## AussieJimG (Sep 10, 2012)

Hi Peter, when I saw your link to a scheme to do away with the spanner/hammer, I thought "Great - I have been looking for something like that", and followed the link to find me demonstrating one of my daft ideas.

It seemed to work and might still be ok with a bit of fiddling. The problem was that the spindle accelerates so rapidly that the handwheel acts as a flywheel whose inertia unscrews the drawbar. When the spindle stops, it tightens up again. Meanwhile, the chuck is loose and wobbling around.

Because it tightens again, it took a while to figure what was going on. When I twigged, I gave it away and went back to spanner/hammer. Sigh!

Perhaps it just needs a handwheel large enough for the hand to apply sufficient torque while having minimum moment of inertia. Something with a thin aluminium ring on the periphery and most of the web removed might do it.

It was a bit of a shock to meet myself coming back though.

Jim


----------



## Swifty (Sep 11, 2012)

Peter's idea is great so long as you are only drawing up a collet holder or drill chuck, would not work on R8 collets as these need to be spanner tightened to hold the cutters.
After over 40 years in the same toolroom, every one used a spanner to unlock the drawbar on the bridgeports and then used the same spanner to hit the end of the drawbar to release the collet. No swapping over to a hammer, and no broken spanners in all that time.

Paul.


----------



## petertha (Sep 11, 2012)

Swifty said:


> ..R8 collets as these need to be spanner tightened to hold the cutters...every one used a spanner to unlock the drawbar on the bridgeports and then used the same spanner to hit the end of the drawbar to release the collet. No swapping over to a hammer, and no broken spanners in all that time.
> Paul.


 
Interesting comment. I have recently been noticing my RF-45 R8 drawbar threads seemed to be sticking just a bit lately as I hand screw it in. It has not had a hard life & I don't tighten it much harder than I have to.

It concerned me because I didnt want it stripping or buggering up a more expensive collet tool. I thought maybe a chip got inside the threads but it was clean. Then I got thinking about the 'knock' disengagement treatment (hammer, spanner or otherwise). One would think just the repeated jolt of this action would degrade threads. If I visualize hitting a 1/2" bolt engaged in a nut 1000 times, it would have to start degrading, no? Maybe my drawbar is just soft offshore iron & I should replace it before it takes out more expensive tooling.

On this note, I thought I could make one easy enough, but noticed what looks like a shear pin in the upper hex nut portion. Would this be a failsafe for the machine during running, or more for overtightening?


----------



## ninefinger (Sep 11, 2012)

petertha said:


> On this note, I thought I could make one easy enough, but noticed what looks like a shear pin in the upper hex nut portion. Would this be a failsafe for the machine during running, or more for overtightening?



I think what your referencing is the undercut at the head of the drawbar?  If so its likely not for over torque as it would still require lots of force to break, and it won't protect the machine at all in the event of a crash (ask those who know...:fan: )

I believe its simply a stress reliever to prevent a crack from forming at a sharp corner, or to provide clearance for a sharp edge on the inside of the spindle, or both...

Mike


----------



## Swifty (Sep 11, 2012)

petertha said:


> On this note, I thought I could make one easy enough, but noticed what looks like a shear pin in the upper hex nut portion. Would this be a failsafe for the machine during running, or more for overtightening?



I think that the pin is just a method to hold the hex section onto the shaft. You will probably find the shaft is manufactured from 2 parts, the main drawbar and the hex head. This saves on machining and material when making the drawbar, use a shaft of the right diameter and put a thread on one end, then pin a hex head on the other.

Paul.


----------

