# High Speed Steam Engine



## windy

*To see a 14cc high speed steam engine at work have a look at this.*
*[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJBG7k3DIms&list=HL1375468978&feature=mh_lolz[/ame]After many years of frustration and development it is so gratifying to see ones model finally come to fruition.*
*As the video shows I was like a kid with a new toy when told the speed.*
*At the moment I am redesigning the valve seat and guide to correct a fault that developed after the second run caused by a worn out seat and stronger valve springs.*
*August 4th will be a time to prove if it works, as speeds approaching 135mph are a distinct possibility providing there are no mechanical disasters.*
*My main competitor should be there hopefully his copy of my burners would be a success as he told me things are getting hotter now.*

*Paul*


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## dmac

Hi pauls,

That's fantastic, it always gives me shivers (top fuel dragster type shivers) when I watch your videos.

Dave.


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## windy

*Sunday 4th August 2013 the new valve seat and guide was tried. After the runs they looked well but cylinder and piston were suspect and engine was not performing as well.*
*A problem with the stellite tipped cam follower had been cured as it was under great loading from high steam and spring pressure.*
*The solution was to burnish the stellite tip on the edge of the polished large lathe chuck backplate now there is just the faintest mark of cam contact.*
*There was a lap at 127mph but speed reduced.*
*Possable cause cylinder scored and ring not sealing.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__LghjAPYc&list=HL1375775501http://
*My main steam competitor had his hydroplane back on form but he had the same problem with the valve seat that I had at the previous meeting*
*UK Midland area championships next month is the next testing time.*
*Happy steaming. *
*Paul*


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## BronxFigs

After reading about this subject, I just ordered the drawings for a steam engine called the "PISCES-11" .  I have seen this engine before in some articles, and It reminds me of an old engine called the "Little Husky", but of course the 'flash steam' re-vamped design is a very different version of the original concept.

Thanks for the information.

Frank


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## windy

After the August runs and finding most engine parts were all right apart from piston and cylinder I have found another liner of correct bore diameter amongst my collection of spare liners (14 in total).
Apart from putting a very slight radius on the exhaust ports to prevent the narrow dykes ring from being damaged that is now put in place.
The exhaust timing has now to be checked and shimmed under cylinder base to adjust.
Then compression ratio it has to be as high as possible.
Many years ago I increased the C.R. and increased the speed by nearly 20mph.
I had locktited the cam after the 129mph run as it had twisted the locating key unfortunately when removing the main bearing was damaged due to the cam, which is now difficult to remove even with heat.
If locktite were used again I would have to redesign the whole assembly so an extractor could be used.
There are always things to do when pushing the speed limits.
I am keeping an eye on the proposed American steam car record attempts.
There are a number of steam car record projects but building a steam record buster have numerous problems.
Good luck is not in my vocabulary if the mechanics and conditions are correct these people will achieve their goal.
Happy steaming.
Paul


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## windy

Does anyone have any knowledge of tungsten disulfide (WS2) based dry film lubricant it looks a good alternative to the moly and graphite pastes that I have been using with moderate success on the flash steamers highly stressed parts.
http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/product.php/488/archoil-ar2400-nano-ws2-dry-film-lubricant

I have ordered some and will probably try it at the next speed attempt.
Paul


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## BronxFigs

Technical drawings for the high speed steam engine "PISCES 11" designed by R.B. Kirtley....just received from MY HOBBY SHOP in England.  A large, folded, single sheet of drawings approx. 30" X 40" showed representations of the various engine components, minus the con-rod, head, and valve parts.  The cut-away, side-view of the engine shows only general, assembled, relationships  between all the parts, but, no measurements.  So, I basically bought someone's (Mr. Kirtley) concepts, and cleaned up sketches.

This is the second time I sent for drawings, and as shipped, they were incomplete.  The Schilling V-2  came without drawings for the cam, piston, con-rod.  But I will say that VTH-VERLAG did note that the V-2 drawings were incomplete, but you had to really search out the site for this notation, and most of the site is written in German, and the translations into English were very little help, or could not be deciphered.

If I wanted to deduce and draw the missing parts, I'd design my own engine, and save my money for materials.  Is it not possible for sites that sell these drawings to note that these drawings are "Incomplete as Published" ?

Twice burned.....


Frank


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## BronxFigs

UPDATE:

E-mailed "My Hobby Shop" about them sending me incomplete plans.  They promptly replied with apologies, and an offer for a full refund of my money.  They said they'd make arrangements and get back to me.  That was almost one month ago, and I have heard nothing from them. 

Now, _I_ have to try to stop payments on my credit card.  Too much work for some drawings!


Frank


EDIT:
Attempted to contact my credit card Customer Service Dept.  What a joke!  20 minutes pressing this, and, pressing that, listening to menus etc. and,  I still couldn't connect to any human being to help me stop a payment!  Just computer-generated, robotic-voice, crap!!  Blood pressure at stroke levels.

Here's the kick in the butt... just opened my credit statement, and read that "My Hobby Shop" gave me credit for the drawings.  God forbid they would have notified me with an e-mail to tell me, and let me know that a refund was applied to my account.  

I'm sorry I ever sent for the drawings.


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## KBC

Frank,
 If the drawing that you have is No M72 it has never over the years been  advertised as a full detailed drawing of PISCES 11 engine.
 It does however give a twice full size cross section general arrangement of the  engine  and all the details of materials used in the engine build to  hold it all together at the tremendous pressures and heat that the  engine is subject to.
 Also the pump dimensions and the schematic arrangement of the flash steam generator.

 From the drawing you can lift the dimensions and check them all before  machining , I did this in 2002 and successfully built the steam plant  and ran it in a deep "V" with R/C steering and stop with the model boat  achieving 45 mph.
 This model is now out of the water as it was becoming very dangerous and a radio glitch convinced me to moth ball it.

 Mr Kirtley had a series of articles published in The Model Engineer Mag  of which I have them on file and if you would like a copy please send me  a P.M. and I will mail them to you.( 12 pages )

   Here are some pics of my engine which differs marginally from PISCES 11  in that the pump drive is taken from a stub on the main drive pin at the front of the engine and  the pumps mounted on the side of the engine.

 Regards 

 George.


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## BronxFigs

KBC/George:

Great looking engine, etc.

Yes, eventually, that's the engine that I would like to tackle one day...just the engine...for display/demonstrations, etc.

The "PISCES II " drawing, shows only a cross-sectional view of the assembled engine, no con-rod, no head, no valving, no dimensions. I'd have to take measurements directly off the drawing, and guess the rest, as you suggested.  I'm not as experienced, and certainly not as clever as you, and some others, when it comes to building engines from a picture.  

Thanks for offering to send me the series of articles regarding the building of this engine.  Maybe I'll finally get the information that I need.  I thought I would get this critical information from the "drawings" that I purchased from "MY HOBBY SHOP".  I didn't.  But, at least they refunded my money.

Thanks for the rescue.


Frank


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## BronxFigs

Just to update this thread:

George/KBC was nice enough to contact me and provided some articles and information regarding the Pisces II steam engine.  The operating pressures and the RPMs that this engine needs are beyond making a simple "hobby' type engine setup.  Far more than I care to tackle.  I would have thought about attempting to make the engine, but the articles showed few or no measurements for the components for the Pisces II.  That's OK.  I learned about this interesting, and highly specialized design.

Thanks, George, for all the kind help that you offered.


Frank


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## KBC

BronxFigs said:


> Just to update this thread:
> 
> George/KBC was nice enough to contact me and provided some articles and information regarding the Pisces II steam engine.  The operating pressures and the RPMs that this engine needs are beyond making a simple "hobby' type engine setup.  Far more than I care to tackle.  I would have thought about attempting to make the engine, but the articles showed few or no measurements for the components for the Pisces II.  That's OK.  I learned about this interesting, and highly specialized design.
> 
> Thanks, George, for all the kind help that you offered.
> 
> 
> Frank



Hi Frank,
It's always a pleasure to try and help out.

George


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## windy

When I built my first engine it was based on the engine Bob designed.
I used his bore and stroke, cam timing and exhaust port opening that was in his Model Engineer article.
Over the years have modified that design with my own little tweeks.
Bob and I are in regular contact swapping ideas to develope more speed.

Paul


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## kvom

After seeing the videos, I'd hate to see what happens if the rope breaks.


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## windy

The rope is piano wire with a breaking strain of 600lbs and has to be renewed every year.


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## lohring

windy said:


> Does anyone have any knowledge of tungsten disulfide (WS2) based dry film lubricant it looks a good alternative to the moly and graphite pastes that I have been using with moderate success on the flash steamers highly stressed parts.
> http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/product.php/488/archoil-ar2400-nano-ws2-dry-film-lubricant
> 
> I have ordered some and will probably try it at the next speed attempt.
> Paul



How did this work out?  Is it a replacement for oil in the steam?

Lohring Miller


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## windy

I did not think it was any better than what I had been using before.
 The parts were sprayed with it but it hardly seemed to cover them maybe an industrial version might have been better?
 I still used steam oil from the lubricator.
 Having burnished the cam and stellite faced follower was successful even when lubrication is limited just using moly or graphite paste.

 Paul


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## lohring

It looked very promising.  I keep hoping there's a replacement for steam oil.  The Cyclone engine doesn't use steam oil, but they're very quiet about the details.  I think some kind of graphite rings are part of the solution.

Lohring Miller


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## robcas631

Paul, that boat is amazing! Started me a bit when it took off! Very fast! You should be proud of your accomplishment! Great video!


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## BaronJ

windy said:


> *To see a 14cc high speed steam engine at work have a look at this.*
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJBG7k3DIms&list=HL1375468978&feature=mh_lolzAfter many years of frustration and development it is so gratifying to see ones model finally come to fruition.*
> *As the video shows I was like a kid with a new toy when told the speed.*
> *At the moment I am redesigning the valve seat and guide to correct a fault that developed after the second run caused by a worn out seat and stronger valve springs.*
> *August 4th will be a time to prove if it works, as speeds approaching 135mph are a distinct possibility providing there are no mechanical disasters.*
> *My main competitor should be there hopefully his copy of my burners would be a success as he told me things are getting hotter now.*
> 
> *Paul*



Awesome !

My wife came in and wanted to know why I was holding my breath while watching that video...

Absolutely stunning.  Thanks for sharing.


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## barnesrickw

Is there a boat in that rooster tail?  Remember, the Stanley Steamer held a speed record for quite a while.


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## AnvilJack

OK, I'm late.  

But that was an exciting demo of steam at speed.

Well done, Paul.


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## BronxFigs

This high speed hydroplane, hobby is all new to me....is the goal, just to go the fastest?  These videos are the only time I ever saw these boats in action.

After the operator releases the boat...I guess the boat keeps going until it runs out of fuel?   What happens if there is a failure?  Is there any control over these boats once released?

                               ******************************************************************

I tune and often repair pianos.  The wire used for piano "strings" is high quality, heat treated steel.  The best "string material" used by piano builders used to come from Germany.  However, this piano wire can rust, and pit, and is heat treated so that the wire stretches.  This "stretch' allows the piano tuner to regulate the tension on the 233 strings of a piano, over the life of the piano, usually lasting decades.  However strings in a piano are under constant, high tension, and any potential weak point on a string, whether it be a speck of rust, or a nick in the wire, can cause that wire to suddenly snap.  When wire is brought up to working tension on a newly strung piano, the technician will place a heavy sheet of cardboard over the strings as protection in case a string pops.   You don't want to be anywhere near a piece of wire spring-steel when it snaps, and whips around!  Your eyes will not stop music wire.

I hope some kind of plastic covering/tubing is slipped over that tether wire.  Just saying.



Frank


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## windy

*On last leg of new cylinder head with valve seat all in one with head its all made out of en 24t.*
*Should solve valve insert leakage.*
*June will be the test, hopefully it wont be a flying steam engine with all the bits to repair.*
*A new hull has been made after 2013 crash.*
*Trying to keep the weight down but a new modification has added some extra weight.*
*Hopefully 135mph might be achieved but nothing can be taken for granted.*
*Competition could be interesting? *
*Development keeps the few brain cells working.*

*Paul*


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## windy

*Update on new 2014 steam hydro hull and engine modifications after a bad day in June at Kingsbury Water Park this Sunday July 13th after a bit of tweaking to the launch system on my second attempt managed 102 mph.*
*A problem I had a few years ago i.e. the prop jumping reappeared with some helpful advice angles on the prop skeg and front canards was changed.*
*The third attempt was very promising with an average speed of 122.5 mph but still prop jumping.*
*A test run was allowed at the end of competition but the launch was a disaster.*
*A problem appeared the water pump requires investigation as at times it stopped pumping on trying to fire up amazing what an engineers favourite tool can do i.e. a small hammer. *
*A friend took a video of the disasters and good runs so will try to supply a link when available.*

*Paul*


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## windy

Here is the video Bobs and my flash steam hydroplanes at work the first meeting in June was not very good for both of us but things are getting better at this regatta.
 [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-7yZXIZfqU"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-7yZXIZfqU[/ame]

I have to trim the hull and that is very critical to keep on the water or become an aircraft or submarine at the speeds  now being achieved.

The new cylinder head is good and cam follower OK trim is the key to going faster now

Paul


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## KBC

Hi Paul,
Many thanks for the Vid of you and Bob's running attempts, it has given me some encouragement to have another go at my Flashsteamer OOYAH although I will not run it on a club day but on one of our working nights.

Last year I had an incident when something hit the rudder and knocked it off 30 deg unknown to me so it was a struggle to get it back under radio control.
Hopefully I will get it to run and somebody can get a Video of it to post, it's so encouraging to see that even you guys have off days.

George.


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## lohring

Are you still running cast iron pistons with Dykes rings?

Lohring Miller


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## windy

KBC said:


> Last year I had an incident when something hit the rudder and knocked it off 30 deg unknown to me so it was a struggle to get it back under radio control.
> Hopefully I will get it to run and somebody can get a Video of it to post, it's so encouraging to see that even you guys have off days.
> 
> George.



 We both have had plenty of off days it's now into the experimental for both of us.
 My prop-shaft steady bearing has been running very hot probably needs more clearance?
 A bit of woodwork the rear wing half of it broke off when launched on the 122.5 run.

 Paul


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## windy

lohring said:


> Are you still running cast iron pistons with Dykes rings?
> 
> Lohring Miller



 Yes I have no problems with them running in a steel liner.

 Paul


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## windy

*After July runs now getting ready for Sundays blast have made some new rear wings of a better aerodynamic profile to keep the stern down at speed?*
*Might do some more alterations to prop angle but after 122.5 mph with half a wing off will see after first attempt.*
*Found a bit of minute black metal debris on the water pump bottom feed it looks as if it came from the steam generator possibly when releasing pressure as I am very strict about pump and tank cleanliness.*
*That was the problem with the pump at times when starting.*
*The 2014 EN24T cylinder head (one piece apart from cast iron valve guide) has proved itself after last years leaking head. *


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## lohring

Very nice looking head.  I'm getting ready to machine a cylinder and head and was wondering what hardness it could be tempered to.  From the colors on your head it looks like the maximum temperature might be below 800 degrees F which would allow a 45 Rockwell C hardness.  My stock is already heat treated to 35 Rockwell C.  What hardness are you running on your head and cylinders?  Are you still using a cut down automotive exhaust valve for your valve?

Good luck on your run.

Lohring Miller


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## windy

lohring said:


> Very nice looking head. I'm getting ready to machine a cylinder and head and was wondering what hardness it could be tempered to. From the colors on your head it looks like the maximum temperature might be below 800 degrees F which would allow a 45 Rockwell C hardness. My stock is already heat treated to 35 Rockwell C. What hardness are you running on your head and cylinders? Are you still using a cut down automotive exhaust valve for your valve?
> 
> Good luck on your run.
> 
> Lohring Miller


 
Material is en24t no other heat treatment
 In the past it has gone over the colour temperature range depending on pump settings etc. this head has hardly been run yet expect it all to change colour soon.
 Valve has to be one piece (no welded head) and at least 21/4n material or better. 

 Paul


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## waynes world

Very interested in the propellers  could you tell about them, are they hand made or readily available to buy, where from etc , I know about the web site on the wire but no real info on technical side.


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## lohring

http://www.prop-shop.co.uk/index.php?id=40&section=store&sub_section=products
Click on more info to find what the numbers mean.  For a general understanding of propeller operation you can read my articles on propellers in the NAMBA Propwash; propeller theory in part 1 and propeller geometry, measurement, and manufacturing in part 2.  Part 3 will cover what is done to convert a casting into a high performance racing propeller.

Lohring Miller

PS  Paul, thanks for the material information.


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## windy

waynes world said:


> Very interested in the propellers could you tell about them, are they hand made or readily available to buy, where from etc , I know about the web site on the wire but no real info on technical side.



Some tethered hydroplane competitors buy the cast props and tweak them but have seen them bend.
Many of the high performance competitors make their own out of steels like EN24T.
Mine is 4 inches in diameter out of HT steel I start by milling the root angle then twist the blade with something on the lines of a large tap wrench to the angle I require.
A template of the blade shape is then scribed on the rough blade.
With a series of angle gauges I proceed to hand finish with power and hand tools the required angles at various diameters on a jig I made.
Cupping etc. is then done, rear angle is critical to how it runs in the water the rooster tail give various clues when flat out.
My props are highly polished and razor sharp so extreme care is required to avoid injury.
Have been told that some of the fastest full size racing props are hand finished for that extra speed. 


 Roughed out prop on jig


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## waynes world

Thanks gents, lohring  these props have similar lines to the jg Jim gale props in some ways?  Yes have read most of your articles . Tether boats seems like most components are hand made to the greater percentage.


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## windy

*Sunday was very good with Bob Kirtley doing his personal best at 123.33 mph. *
*On my first run 128.29 mph with laps at 130mph.*
*Second attempt I fitted an air scoop for the burners it accelerated very fast but a fire ball melted water, fuel pipes and annealed a valve spring plus heat reflector melted it still did 117 mph.*
*With Bobs help he had some bacofoil and replacing damaged parts with just minutes before the last run it ran round at 128.87 mph with very little speed difference on the 5 timed laps.*
*Now I have got the engine on form the cylinder head must have been just below red heat near the inlet and the valve guide has a grey scale on it now.*
*There is a month before my next trial so back to the workshop to repair the fire damaged hull and try to find that extra mph.*

*Paul*


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## windy

windy said:


> *Sunday was very good with Bob Kirtley doing his personal best at 123.33 mph. *
> *On my first run 128.29 mph with laps at 130mph.*
> *Second attempt I fitted an air scoop for the burners it accelerated very fast but a fire ball melted water, fuel pipes and annealed a valve spring plus heat reflector melted it still did 117 mph.*
> *With Bobs help he had some bacofoil and replacing damaged parts with just minutes before the last run it ran round at 128.87 mph with very little speed difference on the 5 timed laps.*
> *Now I have got the engine on form the cylinder head must have been just below red heat near the inlet and the valve guide has a grey scale on it now.*
> *There is a month before my next trial so back to the workshop to repair the fire damaged hull and try to find that extra mph.*
> 
> *Paul*


 
Here are the days runs.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABS5gDOBkYA[/ame]


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## Swifty

That's some pitch you have there on the propeller. Never seen one as coarse as that before.

Paul.


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## lohring

Thanks for posting the video.  Have you always used a Scotch Yoke pump drive?  It's very compact.  Are there any issues compared to a connecting rod drive?

Lohring Miller


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## windy

lohring said:


> Thanks for posting the video. Have you always used a Scotch Yoke pump drive? It's very compact. Are there any issues compared to a connecting rod drive?
> 
> Lohring Miller


 
 I used to use a con rod like Bobs but the Scotch Yoke is more compact I am also running pumps at 4.8 engine speed compared to Bobs 6 to 1.

 There has been no problems apart from renewing the bronze block at times.

 The pump rams supporting bushes are also longer.

 Stroke can also be set very fine compared to a series of holes at different diameters.


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## windy

Swifty said:


> That's some pitch you have there on the propeller. Never seen one as coarse as that before.
> 
> Paul.



The engine has a great deal of torque once at race speed.
The start can be awkward if the prop is too deep in the water or you don't launch it level.
Amazingly it recovered from this bad launch and did 119 mph the engine was on form on the previous run it did 129 mph.
 On stripping the engine found the cam for steam inlet had twisted locating key and retarded the timing also a leaking cylinder head which now has been resolved for 2014.


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## windy

At last Sundays runs of 128plus mph a slight problem has to be solved.
The prop UJ a simple pin and slot that was replaced for these runs is experiencing excessive wear on the slotted body 0.5625" diameter with 0.375" bore the pin out of piano wire is very good.
Have used case hardening steel, en24t, air hardening steel and others as can be seen it's like an impact wrench with the loads that's involved.
Ideas on a simple UJ design capable of taking the loads and speeds involved from a high torque engine and keeping to the dimensions quoted.


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## lohring

We stopped using that type of propeller drive a long time ago.  Most boats use a flexible cable drive that allows a lot of variation in strut angle.  The gasoline engined boats run 1/4" cable.  I've never broken one, but you develop more torque.  The other drive system is a wire drive.  There a solid shaft running in ball bearings is slightly bent as needed.  We considered running as large as 3/16" music wire on our gasoline engined boats, but stuck with the cable.  Wire drives are very popular with electrics.  They can have huge starting torques like steam.  Check out this site for both types of drives.  
http://www.rcraceboat.com/Storewiredrive.html

You will need a heavier duty version of either type. The 1/4" cables might work.  They can attach to the engine with either a square or collet.  I've used both and prefer the collet for ease of removing the shaft.  The cable runs in a stuffing tube that can be Teflon lined.  I use a piece of brass tube between that tube and the prop shaft as a bearing.  See the list below for parts:
Drive Dog - http://www.insaneboats.com/mm5/merc...ategory_Code=Driveline-Parts&Product_Code=D13
Collet (engine end for Zenoah engines) - http://www.insaneboats.com/mm5/merc...ategory_Code=Driveline-Parts&Product_Code=D17
Prop shaft bushing - http://www.insaneboats.com/mm5/merc...ategory_Code=Driveline-Parts&Product_Code=D22
Cable & prop shaft - http://www.insaneboats.com/mm5/merc...iveline-Parts&Product_Code=34-WeldedPropCable

You would need a length of brass tubing that the bushing slides into for the stuffing box.  A cable drive absorbs the cylinder pulsations and is pretty tough.  The big advantage is the range of angles for engine and strut setup.  Aeromaring makes a lot of collets for various engine crankshafts.
http://aeromarinerc.myshopify.com/collections/collets/products/nitro-flex-collets

Lohring Miller


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## windy

Here is the steamer in take off mode at 120plus mph at last weekends 2 days regatta at Rowden.
 Picture courtesy of M Biddle


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## AnvilJack

Great photo, great project.

What a brilliant engineering experience.

Well done.


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## windy

Sadly John Benson has passed away he was co writer with AA Rayman of experimental flash steam.
He was still competing this year with his Son helping him.
His book gave me inspiration and was a Bible to me when I started building a flash steam hydroplane.
A link to his life with model hydroplanes.
**LINK**
Paul


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## KBC

windy said:


> Sadly John Benson has passed away he was co writer with AA Rayman of experimental flash steam.
> He was still competing this year with his Son helping him.
> His book gave me inspiration and was a Bible to me when I started building a flash steam hydroplane.
> A link to his life with model hydroplanes.
> **LINK**
> Paul



Paul,
Thanks for the update on John, it's sad to hear of his passing, like you EXPERIMENTAL FLASHSTEAM was an inspiration to me as well.
Without the book and the help from R.Kirtley I would never have managed to get my project of the ground.

He must have been in his 90's and Alan Rayman can't be far behind, a great book for anybody contemplating a Flashsteam plant.

George.


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## windy

*2015 test at P.E.E.M.S. club of repaired steam generator after last years burst plus checking redesigned piston.*

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwb6gyV2i2I[/ame]

Paul


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## lohring

Have you considered loading the prop by submerging it in a closed can of water?  I believe Jim Bamford used this method in a simple brake dyno.





Lohring Miller


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## windy

lohring said:


> Have you considered loading the prop by submerging it in a closed can of water? I believe Jim Bamford used this method in a simple brake dyno.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lohring Miller


 
It has been tried in a pond but needs forced air as well to get efficient combustion.
I have a powerful leaf blower but matching air speed and prop loading needs very fine tuning.
The slightest variation on many things related to hydroplanes at 130mph upsets all the settings i.e. weight, CG, prop depth in water when running at speed, angles of skeg, engine settings and type of load on engine.
Too much load and engine plus generator can overheat.
Light load and excess fuel and water cools it all.
Matching bench tests even with a dyno to actual competition speeds and conditions is not easy.
IC engines do not have as many problems compared to high speed flash steam power plants.


Paul


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## lohring

I obviously have a lot to learn, but that's what makes it fun.  Could you explain what changes you made to your piston?  I was considering a two piece aluminum with a cast iron top, but decided proven construction was a better place to start.

Lohring Miller


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## windy

lohring said:


> I obviously have a lot to learn, but that's what makes it fun. Could you explain what changes you made to your piston? I was considering a two piece aluminum with a cast iron top, but decided proven construction was a better place to start.
> 
> Lohring Miller


 
Dimensions of original piston is based on Bob Kirtley design after just breaking Bobs record for the following year the piston became a slipper type an increase of over 6mph with laps in the 130mph bracket.

The problem for a long running engine would be loss of lube through the uniflow exhaust ports.

I use mainly solid lubrication and get a run of about 19 100 metre laps depending on the hydroplane performance.

The 2015 slipper piston has to be tested in competition as there could be problems it is more of a design of a early F1 piston.



Paul


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## windy

I'm rebuilding all my damaged steam generators that because of overheating and bursts made them too short for efficient steam production.
Now having a Tig Welder decided to try to reclaim them as the stainless tube is getting expensive.
The prove of the pudding will be when they are under competition conditions with heat and pressure.
Sorry some of pictures not that clear.


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## KBC

windy said:


> I'm rebuilding all my damaged steam generators that because of overheating and bursts made them too short for efficient steam production.
> Now having a Tig Welder decided to try to reclaim them as the stainless tube is getting expensive.
> The prove of the pudding will be when they are under competition conditions with heat and pressure.
> Sorry some of pictures not that clear.



Paul,
Do you feel that a butt joined T.I.G. weld will hold at the high temp and pressure of competition speeds.

I could only find 6m lengths of St/St tube so to get the 32ft length of coil It was tig welded but I made a sleave about 1" long and had it T.I.G. welded at both ends with the tube inserted 1/2" from both ends and never had any trouble but then I was not running at the speeds you are, I have no knowledge of what my Temps and Pressures are.

Best wishes on your quest for speed.

George.


----------



## windy

KBC said:


> Paul,
> Do you feel that a butt joined T.I.G. weld will hold at the high temp and pressure of competition speeds.
> 
> I could only find 6m lengths of St/St tube so to get the 32ft length of coil It was tig welded but I made a sleave about 1" long and had it T.I.G. welded at both ends with the tube inserted 1/2" from both ends and never had any trouble but then I was not running at the speeds you are, I have no knowledge of what my Temps and Pressures are.
> 
> Best wishes on your quest for speed.
> 
> George.


 
They are swaged into a top hat configuration and fuse welded into the tube outer diameter it is a test.
The 3/16 inserted into the 1/4 diameter tube was fuse welded on 3 of my original generators including the 129mph one with no problems by a race car Tig welder when using filler rod on test pieces we found inclusion into the internal diameter.
Admittedly competition will decide if OK but has been hydraulically tested to over 300 bar which is no way near the pressures of competition but heat might be the downfall?

Paul


----------



## lohring

I can't find any tables for 316 stainless tubing at temperatures above 1000 degrees F.  At that temperature the burst strength is about 3/4 that at room temperature.  The tensile strength of 316 stainless is around 1/3 the room temperature value at 1500 degrees and 1/50 the room temperature value at 2000 degrees.  I bet the tubing failures are mostly over temperature problems since the strength falls off a cliff much above 1200 degrees.

Lohring Miller


----------



## windy

Know doubt high temperatures are the downfall of the tubing if you reduce water feed the tube at a hot spot will balloon and burst.

After a pressure fault last year the 321 tubing degraded with the intense heat and when the pressure fault was rectified tubing failed with little pressure.

Paul


----------



## windy

Had the steamer out for my first meeting of 2015 at Kingsbury Water Park trying various modifications after last years trials and tribulations.
First run did 121 mph I was personally disappointed thinking the repaired steam generator was a possible culprit or the redesigned piston not up to expectations.
On inspection found the pump drive screw had worked loose it is normally locktighted but thought it was tight enough as it is awkward to adjust the stroke when locktighted.
2nd run it did 124mph but was slow accelerating if timed a few laps later 130 mph was a possibility.
Final run under bad weather it did 127.8 mph average speed on stripping the engine found the retaining pin was missing that stops the curved cam follower rotating a part that I diligently check is tight.
For July meeting will redo that pin to be fool proof the repaired steam generator that I had Tig welded (my first attempt at stainless tube Tig welding) was successful I now have a few reclaimed ones now as spares.
The shortened slipper piston was OK apart from some carbon near the ring gap at top of cylinder bore.
The next time out I will have competition from Bobs steamer which is good for development.


----------



## windy

Have been sent this picture of last Sundays run courtesy of 
http://www.onthewire.co.uk/
Probably 130mph plus not long afterwards it went vertical as you can see very little flame when under load a sign of good combustion.
An estimate 135mph when it took off the mods I did to the engine worked but has brought aerodynamic problems at this faster speed something I had and cured when doing 120mph it's a new ball game now.


----------



## Blogwitch

A bit of a catch 22 situation you have there, you need the aerodynamics you have now to get you through the 120 barrier, but you then need to change it by the time you hit 130, as starting out with a 130mph setting might not allow you to get to and through the 120mph barrier.

Can you mount some sort of mechanical sensor on the hull to change the aerodynamics as you speed up even further?

As you can most probably guess, and even though we have met and talked for a fair time at the midlands show many years ago about this subject, I have no basic working hands on knowledge of this type of powered hull, but I do take a great interest in their workings.

John


----------



## Silvergoose

Windy, thank you for posting, this is a very interesting hobby. Each time I read your posts I walk away with more questions, Can you suggest a site or publication that will start at the lowest level of flash steam power plants? You said that you used a solid lube, what would that be and how does it work at such speeds and pressures? Keep posting, please.


Good luck


----------



## windy

Silvergoose said:


> Windy, thank you for posting, this is a very interesting hobby. Each time I read your posts I walk away with more questions, Can you suggest a site or publication that will start at the lowest level of flash steam power plants? You said that you used a solid lube, what would that be and how does it work at such speeds and pressures? Keep posting, please.
> 
> 
> Good luck


A good starting point about flash steam is Experimental Flash Steam by Benson and Rayman the design by Bob Kirtley which is the basis of my engine with a lot of mods that Bob is trying now i.e piston design.
When I stripped my engine after Kingsbury it did do a lot of laps before VTO the condition was as if it been plodding serenely along.
Cam follower a part that takes intense loads was very good.
My 2015 short slipper piston with new ring (gap 0.003") exhalent.
Could do with new gudgeon pin and maybe big end. Making a new manifold as the intense heat when it became an underwater missile hardened it out and it smashed when tightened.

 Also after on site repairs the last run the generator burst the new section I had tig welded and joint was OK it was part of the old stainless that had degraded.
the dry moly paste on the cam and follower adheres to them more than the oil, Grathos on piston, cylinder and valve guide are used as I have my suspicion moly at intense heat causes more problems.
The potential for a new record is there but from my experience of my younger days when attempting motorcycle records with my scrap yard specials in 1971 and 1974 you can never take anything for granted.
A long reply for me but will have to get back to metal munching soon as will be going to Newby Hall Classic Car Show on Sunday to drool over real cars not modern tin cans.
The motorcycle speed record bug has never left me and you never know a high speed steam motorcycle might suddenly appear on the scene.
After a local young lad of 85 wins Classic TT http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-22201823 I remember him from my youth there's hope for me yet.
By the way I never believe in luck if machine and conditions correct you will achieve your goals.

Paul


----------



## lohring

Blowing off is a problem with high speed hydros.  We didn't go as fast as you, but we did a lot of testing to get to 110 mph with a similar size gasoline engine powered RC hydro.  A quick fix was an airfoil on the front sponson tube.  It can be deflected to give down force.  Your tubes are short so you may need a spoiler on the hull as well.  We used spoilers on the wing section of a sport hydro to kill the lift.  That allowed the boat to exceed 100 mph.  It blew off at 75 mph without the spoiler.  I'm not sure our sponson design would help in a tether boat.  They were designed to track straight.  Below are some pictures.  The last picture is a larger hydro for a 35 cc engine.  Note the holes in the sponsons for different positions.  The forward position shown was what was used.  

My former partner, the brains behind our record, now lives in Poole.  He runs a kart business, but is still interested in model and full size boating.  At one time he wanted to build a steam powered boat.  You might contact him at Bontoft Kart Engines.  He is a great mechanic and has an intuitive feel for high speed boat design.  At the least, he probably could be persuaded to watch you run.

Lohring Miller


----------



## windy

lohring said:


> Blowing off is a problem with high speed hydros. We didn't go as fast as you, but we did a lot of testing to get to 110 mph with a similar size gasoline engine powered RC hydro. A quick fix was an airfoil on the front sponson tube. It can be deflected to give down force. Your tubes are short so you may need a spoiler on the hull as well. We used spoilers on the wing section of a sport hydro to kill the lift. That allowed the boat to exceed 100 mph. It blew off at 75 mph without the spoiler. I'm not sure our sponson design would help in a tether boat. They were designed to track straight. Below are some pictures. The last picture is a larger hydro for a 35 cc engine. Note the holes in the sponsons for different positions. The forward position shown was what was used.
> 
> My former partner, the brains behind our record, now lives in Poole. He runs a kart business, but is still interested in model and full size boating. At one time he wanted to build a steam powered boat. You might contact him at Bontoft Kart Engines. He is a great mechanic and has an intuitive feel for high speed boat design. At the least, he probably could be persuaded to watch you run.
> 
> Lohring Miller


 
When I had the steamer doing 120mph in 2011 here are some of the notes at that time.
Perfect 1st run, no prop jumping, sponsons just clear of the water. My fastest recorded speed of 114.91 mph. I asked how can I make it go faster? 2nd run going faster then takes off. With the help of FS convert Fred Reeve we repaired it and altered the skeg angle to try to keep nose down. 3rd run it took off again. Observers thought at about 120mph. A new dykes ring had been fitted for the previous Kingsbury meeting but had been unable to launch so think when ring bedded in it went faster. Hull has got to be repaired as it has split. 

The following year 2012 canards with gurney flaps were fitted between the sponsons and were an instant success just breaking Bobs record.
2013 speed record increased to 129.33mph.
The hydro has lapped stably at 131mph at Kingsbury many times.

Might increase their area now that speeds well over 130mph are achievable there are other things that could be tried but that adds more complication which might be a step backwards

Paul


----------



## aonemarine

What about shifting the c/g forward a bit?


----------



## windy

Moving C/G is not that simple due to engine, generator, fuel and water tanks plus the weight limitation.
In an ideal set up the fuel and water tanks would be at the C/G but then fuel flow to pumps would be limited and these type of pumps would be no use if tanks were pressurised.
Then the boat with tanks at the C/G would make it wider which is a major problem and causes a lot of lift if air flow gets wrong.
Like all speed increases new barriers have to be overcome and all suggestions are welcome.
I would like to do what some aircraft do with there fuel and distribute it in flight to get the correct balance.
No doubt the tanks are a most likely cause of the take off increasing the front canards might help to reduce lift at the cost of drag.
It's all a compromise as the full size hydroplanes with all there technology have found they regular flip.

Paul


----------



## lohring

aonemarine said:


> What about shifting the c/g forward a bit?



You need to keep enough weight on the prop otherwise the prop lift will blow the prop out.  The hull acts like a wing in ground effect.  This effect can be magnified with air traps (skirts) on the hull.  All Mike's hydros were designed to be wings so as little of the boat would be in the water as possible.  However, too much lift or lift in the wrong place causes problems.  

The last picture above and the pictures below show his latest thinking.  The little outboard hydro below went 86 mph with a 3.5 cc engine.  At first it had too much wing area and blew off.  The wing was trimmed to give the right amount of lift.  

By the way, the rear wing used on full sized hydros for stability, isn't effective enough on models.  Another of Mike's designs with a large rear wing is below.  It is a 1/4 scale model of an electric hydro that was never built.  It was over powered and went over 90 mph initially.  We could deflect its rear wing up to 30 degrees with little change.

The forward sponson position helps stabilize these designs.  As the wing lifts, it loads the sponsons which prevents diving.  The sponsons are actually little wings in ground effect as well.  When they lift, the main wing increases its angle of attach to counter.  The tiny sponsons also loose lift very quickly with height.  Video shows that they seldom touch the water at speed.  On our boats only the rudder and part of the prop are submerged.

All wings in ground effect quickly loose lift with height.  The problem is the center of lift movement.  As the wing moves out of ground effect the center of lift moves forward from around 3/4 of the cord to 1/4 of the cord from the leading edge.  This is what causes all hydros to blow over if they bounce up enough.  We tried to use the loss of lift with height on 3 wings in ground effect to counter this center of lift movement on the main wing.  

Lohring Miller


----------



## windy

At my last runs of 2015 127mph  this run was with prop nearly riding on it's boss.

Photos from previous faster runs at 130mph + the prop tip is just in the water and still accelerating.

A new larger wing on front this time (told it would take off) made it stable instead of flipping.

Sponsons  are off the water

Bobs large tail fins on his 120mph plus hydro has an stabilising effect on his hydro and reduced flipping with smaller ones it takes off.

Here is a video of 3 flash steamers at last Kingsbury of 2015

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09kV1kxVgHk[/ame]


----------



## nemoc

WOW I love this video.  Been showing it to everyone I know.


----------



## windy

nemoc said:


> WOW I love this video. Been showing it to everyone I know.


 
Thank you we have to keep these minority hobbies and sports alive otherwise they die.
I have another full size flash steam project in the wings but unless I can sort the personal competition medical red tape sorted out it will be a dead duck.
The help that enthusiasts from my previous life has been tremendous but the modern competition health rules might kill it a thing that was minimal in 1970.
At the moment if I get the medical all clear it might be interesting to pure speed buffs but will not say too much till built if I get the medical OK.
I should know next week but feel doubtful which will disappoint many genuine supporters of my proposed project.
A challenge is what I like and this would certainly be that if allowed.

From Windy a pure speed nut despite the appearance. 

Windy


----------



## windy

Not the best of days at Kingsbury Water Park the water was high which makes for difficulty launching my hydro.
My main flash steam opposition Bob his crankshaft broke and caused a steam generator burst.
My first run looked promising and the valve modifications worked but disaster raised its head and my generator popped.
A spare was fitted but maybe damage had been done to engine or pumps and it was difficult to keep the burners alight.
It's last attempt managed an average speed over five 100 metre laps was 116 mph and one lap at 118 mph.
I had my friend John shoot the video at close quarters in the water and it looks very fast close up but have lost over 11 mph.
Strip down today to see what's up.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sooiFdfNztw"]**LINK**[/ame]


----------



## Mark Rand

Two dumb questions:-


Is the line from the outside of the hull/sponson at the start a safety cutout or to ensure that the boat can't turn inwards after release?
Has anyone thought about compounding a uniflow engine along the lines of the Willans Centre Valve engine?
Regards
Mark Rand (at the Willans and Robinson works in Rugby)


----------



## windy

Last week spent 3 glorious days at Coniston water speed record attempts the weather was first class.
My model and full size boat friend was trying to break his old record for flash steam boats.
As what is not unusual in most record attempts first time out there are gremlins to sort out for next years attempts.
Even so the satnav showed an increase in the record speed if only for a short distance before the generator cooled. The V twin engine has desmo inlet valves and uniflow exhaust the prop goes at twice engine speed. 
We were involved in a minor way with Miss Albatross Gem Turbine powered boat team they also had problems.
Roger my young friend who brought me to the record attempt had to get his hands mucky trying to fit an igniter in the Gem Turbine

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq992YNT9RE[/ame]


----------



## james_III

So ermmmm wow  Did not know these thing exist in large scale as well, that would be fun project.


----------



## windy

james_III said:


> So ermmmm wow  Did not know these thing exist in large scale as well, that would be fun project.


 
There are many engineering potential speed record projects being made in various sheds and workshops in the UK.
Some I have seen being made and near completion one makes my steam model look so tame it's a full size steam propelled machine capable of extreme speed.
I have seen it run just on high pressure compressed air and was very impressed.
When it has been tested on the track and have been given permission by it's professional race engineer builder I will show pictures or video of it.
So watch this space it should if time permits be running next year.


----------



## windy

Temptation got started in the workshop just got fed up of being stuck in a bed at the hospital and playing with the laptop there.
Would like a lathe with a bit more grunt but will get there in the end.
Just removed the scale off my EN24 T crankshaft billet.
Back in my little heaven knob twiddling again what with the full size project and the model hydro to rebuild time is in short supply.


----------



## JCSteam

Wow windy, that's impressive!!! I knew that there was flash steam RC boats, but I've never seen them like this before, fantastic to watch:thumbup:


----------



## windy

JCSteam said:


> Wow windy, that's impressive!!! I knew that there was flash steam RC boats, but I've never seen them like this before, fantastic to watch:thumbup:


 
Health problems has raised it's head and will certainly not be able to run it again till later in 2017 if I can improve.
Apart from that there's new cylinder head to make, Propeller, generator and a lot of minor things to repair.
At moment can potter about in the workshop but a bit dodgy going any distance.
I've my full size project that's taking a lot of head scratching that consumes a great deal of time on the PC.


----------



## JCSteam

I hope your health improves windy, as I'd very much like to see more of this 

All the best


----------



## lohring

At one time you were looking for an alternative cylinder lubricant.  I found information about this Teflon coating in another steam forum.  

Lohring Miller

"I picked up this great Teflon coating spray from Grainger that works  really well. These sprays were originally marketed for non-stick  cookware resurfacing...but due to the toxicity of Teflon fumes when  overheated, they now call it simply &#8220;dry lubricant&#8221; for liability  reasons. It actually bonds to metal surprisingly well...but takes  several days to coat and re-coat it sufficiently. I plan on coating both  the cam and lifter contact surfaces with it to keep the friction  down...I did this to hydraulic gear pump components with good results,  using it as a high pressure water pump"


----------



## windy

lohring said:


> At one time you were looking for an alternative cylinder lubricant. I found information about this Teflon coating in another steam forum.
> 
> Lohring Miller
> 
> There are many coatings for IC engine now here are a few


----------



## Anatol

Back at the beginning of this thread, there is a discussion about a "piscesII" engine, and "George" KBC posted some pics of a very interesting looking engine in for a flash steam boat. Can anyone  tell me  more about this engine ? I assume its a single cylinder poppet valve uniflow, and assume the great driven apparatus on the side is a feed water pump? 
thx!


----------



## fcheslop

You can contact George aka Ooya on MEM or Model Boat Mayhem.He did a thread about flash steam and that engine on the RC groups site
He no longer posts on this site I believe
The pumps are for water and fuel
The engine is based on Mr Kirtleys design Piscese  as for the rest George will know


----------



## dkutzner

BronxFigs said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> E-mailed "My Hobby Shop" about them sending me incomplete plans.  They promptly replied with apologies, and an offer for a full refund of my money.  They said they'd make arrangements and get back to me.  That was almost one month ago, and I have heard nothing from them.
> 
> Now, _I_ have to try to stop payments on my credit card.  Too much work for some drawings!
> 
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> Attempted to contact my credit card Customer Service Dept.  What a joke!  20 minutes pressing this, and, pressing that, listening to menus etc. and,  I still couldn't connect to any human being to help me stop a payment!  Just computer-generated, robotic-voice, crap!!  Blood pressure at stroke levels.
> 
> Here's the kick in the butt... just opened my credit statement, and read that "My Hobby Shop" gave me credit for the drawings.  God forbid they would have notified me with an e-mail to tell me, and let me know that a refund was applied to my account.
> 
> I'm sorry I ever sent for the drawings.


stop paying your credit card bills and see how fast they get in touch with you


----------



## ericohara

An old thread, but I have been enjoying reading through as I contemplate a venture into flash steam Hydroplanes.
Thank you for posting and inspiring..


----------



## windy

ericohara said:


> An old thread, but I have been enjoying reading through as I contemplate a venture into flash steam Hydroplanes.
> Thank you for posting and inspiring..


Depending what you want to use a flash steam power plant for if model hydroplanes have a look at On the Wire website.
At moment have made a full size version of my model flash steam engine to put in a two or 3 wheel hopeful record attempt vehicle.
If serious about building flash steam hydro I have still a lot of advice on record.
Use high tensile steels for cranks etc. don't over complicate that simple Westbury engine updated is a good start the generator and pumps are the key to high power.
Have you seen an earlier video of my big boy test


----------



## ericohara

"Windy", I have been watching / stalking you for a little while. You have been great inspiration, I am glad you answered.
I am slowly gathering toward making a reverse engineered 20s hydro to gain a little experience whilst hopefully capturing something historical in spirit. On the Wire has been my main inspiration.
As for the record vehicle... again I suspected as much! I do look forward to developments... you are an inspiration. Thank you.


----------



## windy

I was at my spiritual home today to observe various speed addicts.
Was fortunate to be shown a photo taken in 1973 of my scrapyard special at a 1/4 mile sprint at Topcliffe.
9.593 seconds with terminal speed of 153.8 mph and is a course record.
No doubt smoking is addictive did eventually give it up when doing flying attempts.


----------



## ericohara

Spectacular! That is very impressive performance, thank you for sharing.


----------



## windy

When you decide to build a flash steamer here are a few pictures of what could happen.
This happened Hull 25 June 2006 and did a rebuild for the next meeting at  Kingsbury 30 July 2006.
Last picture is the new boat it had many aviation problems then my last hull in 2013 was good up to about 135mph then take off after that.
Had made  it very strong and survived many high speed crashes with it with superficial damage.
Maximum weight dry has not to be more than 16lbs.

This is the autopsy notes on the disaster.
New piston ring. New gudgeoned pin. New valve spring(music wire, same size as SS higher rate) 1st run 105.87 mph 2nd run 89 mph 3rd run going very fast when prop broke and boat totally disintegrates. I had fitted the 16Pitch prop by mistake, thinking it was the 14Pitch. With the 16p and 9+mm stroke it may be ideal.


----------



## Steamchick

Oooops!


----------



## windy

I know this is a model engine Forum and hope am not offending anyone by posting my full size interests.
Before being involved with motorcycle speed attempts I was model engineering and made a Westbury horizontal mill engine at school.
Then played about making a gauge 1 steam engine that never was finished.
Motorcycles interests then took hold and was interested in resurrecting a Rudge basket case for vintage sprinting but frame was rotten and beyond my limited knowledge to repair.
The blown Triumphs for sprinting eventually were built and made my own frames that had to be bronze welded outside as had no workshop apart from a few square feet of shed space.
Workshop got updated and was a 6ft x 8ft still frame making outside.
When I called it a day with full size speed attempts started model engineering again.
Started on a traction engine but speed was my first love and seeing Bobs article on his 100 mph flash steam hydro that had me hooked.
Am a fisherman so I swallowed the bait after many enjoyable years developing my now record breaker had to retire.
It's now in the good hands of a past steam record breaker just hope he can go faster than me as engine has the power to do that.

Back to that earlier post of mine in 1973 here is a report on it.
You don't always need a state of the art workshop and a mountain of money in those days to do well.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Windy, I enjoyed that! Keep posting stuff, as I reckon others will enjoy as well.
K2


----------



## Steamchick

lohring said:


> At one time you were looking for an alternative cylinder lubricant.  I found information about this Teflon coating in another steam forum.
> 
> Lohring Miller
> 
> "I picked up this great Teflon coating spray from Grainger that works  really well. These sprays were originally marketed for non-stick  cookware resurfacing...but due to the toxicity of Teflon fumes when  overheated, they now call it simply &#8220;dry lubricant&#8221; for liability  reasons. It actually bonds to metal surprisingly well...but takes  several days to coat and re-coat it sufficiently. I plan on coating both  the cam and lifter contact surfaces with it to keep the friction  down...I did this to hydraulic gear pump components with good results,  using it as a high pressure water pump"


Interesting! Did you know modern diesel engines can have molybdenum coated skirts on their pistons for scuffing resistance and low friction = more power at the crank? ( My wife told me " every girl needs a little black skirt!").
On that thought....
K2


----------



## windy

Steam record dreams.
Think the following was to be in 1988 at Elvington something put an end to its attempt.
Does anyone know what happened to the car?


----------



## ericohara

Windy, thank you for the close up pictures of your boiler and engine although it is a shame to have such a good "internal" view after the accident! 
I would like to introduce myself to flash steam hydros by reverse engineering something like the "Evil Spirit" very early hydroplane. My reasons are also to give me an historic piece to enjoy. I have never made an engine before and so reverse engineering in the spirit of those early craft would be a good starting point and with the help of people like you and this forum, not too complex. Do yo have any thoughts on a "old style" single cylinder set up please?
By the way, your article on the sprint bike and in a shed is brilliant, thank you


----------



## Steamchick

An excellent engine is this one from Brian Rupnow: He sells his plans
*1" Bore x 1" Stroke Vertical i.c. Engine *
K2


----------



## ericohara

Steamchick said:


> An excellent engine is this one from Brian Rupnow: He sells his plans
> *1" Bore x 1" Stroke Vertical i.c. Engine *
> K2


Steamchick, thank you for your reply, this looks like a really nice engine, I will study more..
I am sorry, I should have made it clear in my post, I meant a little single cylinder steam engine in the spirit of the early 1900s flashsteam hydroplane period.
Thank you for your help though.


----------



## windy

*ericohara*
Thank you for the comment on the sprint bike you don't always need all the bells and whistles to do well the main thing to me is enjoy what you are doing.
My flash steam engine is not that different than the Westbury Sparton.
Bob Kirtley who was the incentive for me to have a go his engine looks like an updated Sparton.  
Some of the early flash steamers had to me very complicated valve gear the poppet valve and uniflow exhaust are simple to make.
Don't be worried about making your first engine it's a very interesting learning curve.
I am not an engineer but enjoy machining and always willing to learn despite being 79.
Look at other interests and sometimes you can find useful things for your projects.
Don't be blinkered.
A few pictures of my 2000 engine later on did my drawings with cad.
Westbury flash steam booklet and the Sparton .


----------



## ericohara

Ah, Windy, your drawings are so helpful and I have just recently got hold of the Westbury book where the Sparton caught my eye. Now I have something to begin work on... Brilliant!
Thank you very much..
Eric..


----------



## ericohara

Steamchick said:


> An excellent engine is this one from Brian Rupnow: He sells his plans
> *1" Bore x 1" Stroke Vertical i.c. Engine *
> K2


, thank you for your reply, this looks like a really nice engine, I will study more..
I am sorry, I should have made it clear in my post, I meant a little single cylinder steam engine in the spirit of the early 1900s flash steam hydroplane period.
Thank you for your help though


----------



## windy

ericohara said:


> Ah, Windy, your drawings are so helpful and I have just recently got hold of the Westbury book where the Sparton caught my eye. Now I have something to begin work on... Brilliant!
> Thank you very much..
> Eric..



If you require my cad drawing will gladly let you have them might have to post them as so much also burners generator, pumps and hull.
Things were altered on them when I started munching metal


----------



## ericohara

windy said:


> If you require my cad drawing will gladly let you have them might have to post them as so much also burners generator, pumps and hull.
> Things were altered on them when I started munching metal


Hello Windy,
That is a very kind offer, I would very much like to see them, but I don't want to trouble you and I would not like to risk you sending any original drawings.
I will make a start with the engine drawing / sketch that you sent to me and then if you didn't mind my progressively asking for help or information perhaps that would be better and safer than sending the drawings to me. Initially, I would like to make a little used and under stressed early hydro with your engine and a small steam generator. 
As you say, I can see that it will become addictive and I will want to make something a little quicker, especially as I step back a little from my work and hopefully have more free time in the coming years.
With many thanks.
Eric..


----------



## windy

ericohara said:


> Hello Windy,
> That is a very kind offer, I would very much like to see them, but I don't want to trouble you and I would not like to risk you sending any original drawings.
> I will make a start with the engine drawing / sketch that you sent to me and then if you didn't mind my progressively asking for help or information perhaps that would be better and safer than sending the drawings to me. Initially, I would like to make a little used and under stressed early hydro with your engine and a small steam generator.
> As you say, I can see that it will become addictive and I will want to make something a little quicker, especially as I step back a little from my work and hopefully have more free time in the coming years.
> With many thanks.
> Eric..



Eric
I don't mind could send stuff on a dvd disc only problem to open the drawings might be a problem if you don't have a suitable CAD program.
Message me if you require settings etc. or any advice.
As Westbury states that design of engine needs a lot of pressure to overcome CR.
My full size version have had to retard inlet valve and use a head pressure release to be able to run on compressed air.
I need at least 300psi and a lot of it to run on air with my correct valve timing.
Keep it all simple you can if not careful come up with thinking using  variable valve timing and other ideas and the engine does not get built.

Windy


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## ericohara

windy said:


> Eric
> I don't mind could send stuff on a dvd disc only problem to open the drawings might be a problem if you don't have a suitable CAD program.
> Message me if you require settings etc. or any advice.
> As Westbury states that design of engine needs a lot of pressure to overcome CR.
> My full size version have had to retard inlet valve and use a head pressure release to be able to run on compressed air.
> I need at least 300psi and a lot of it to run on air with my correct valve timing.
> Keep it all simple you can if not careful come up with thinking using  variable valve timing and other ideas and the engine does not get built.
> 
> Windy



Thank you so much Windy, this is brilliant. 
I had not thought about the CR, had completely overlooked this and have just re read Edgar Westbury's remarks on this, thank you for pointing it out. If I make a version of your sketch, do you have an approx idea of a CR I should aim for, considering this is an engine to represent the early period of hydroplanes and a early style single burner steam generator?.
I am not sure how to private message on this forum, perhaps I have to become a full member? I should be able to handle files as we have several CAD programs including Autocad. I will of course pay any costs you incur.
With very best wishes.
Eric..


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## ericohara

Windy, I think I might have found how to message, have just sent a test...


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## lohring

Below are a series of articles on Bob Kirtley's flash steam hydro; the precursor to Paul's hydro.

Lohring Miller


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## lohring




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## ericohara

Lohring, these are perfect, thank you very much!


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## windy

ericohara said:


> Lohring, these are perfect, thank you very much!


A good series of articles for starters I updated the crankshaft to two piece instead of three.
Bob had crank breakages it did not like a lot of jumping on the water.
I have a few tips to stop breakages on cranks of similar design.
Have been there and know reasons on my few breakages of overhung cranks.
A few pictures of a breakage on an experimental crank designed to make cam setting easy another disaster would have been ok if crank had been supported on big end side.
I started on a V twin to power a model flash steam car as could have run at Elvington full size speed meetings using the hydro top ends.
To run at flash steam hydro meetings keeping the weight within the required limits can be a slog.
When I ended with a reasonable reliable design I made many spare parts like pistons, rings, con rod assemblies, cylinder liners etc. so could do rebuilds at a meeting if disaster struck.
My motto never give up have rebuilt the hydro despite going up in flames or crashing its all fun of experimental engineering.
Keeps the brain cells active a bit like sprinting when after that fraction of a second.


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## ericohara

They are great pictures, I can imagine it is an enormously destructive environment. The V twin looks very elegant, it is nice to see the close up detail of the ports and the way you secure the cylinders. I am like a sponge at the moment, soaking up all the info I can gather. Lohring's Pisces articles were a great help too. Thank you for the details.
Looking quite a way into the future, would you recommend a lesser class to start with (following my making of an early period flash steam hydro recreation that I am just beginning). Am I right in thinking there is a class B which is less weight and a little more manageable?
B W.
Eric..


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## windy

ericohara said:


> They are great pictures, I can imagine it is an enormously destructive environment. The V twin looks very elegant, it is nice to see the close up detail of the ports and the way you secure the cylinders. I am like a sponge at the moment, soaking up all the info I can gather. Lohring's Pisces articles were a great help too. Thank you for the details.
> Looking quite a way into the future, would you recommend a lesser class to start with (following my making of an early period flash steam hydro recreation that I am just beginning). Am I right in thinking there is a class B which is less weight and a little more manageable?
> B W.
> Eric..



You will have the same amount of work if you build A or B class FS a B class will be difficult to keep the weight down.
Jump in and build the A class unless you are fortunate you will start at low speeds learning as you improve things.
I have a video of my first attempts at Hull East Park and another with another old codger testing his steamer at my home.
That one was like Last of the Summer Wine the other chap raced homemade successful hill climb 3 wheelers.


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## windy

This video was my second year with the Flash Steamer my main problem was the launch. 
My first attrmpts were in 1993 and after many DNR did 63.64mph
The Hull course was 100yds a lap Kingsbury is 100metre a lap


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## windy

Here it is Last of the Summer Wine flash steam model hydroplane version.
We both left a mark on our earlier full size speed attempts Fred and his Son were successful at 3 wheeler hill climbs.
A 30min video of two happy bunnies a few tips there for Eric


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## ericohara

This is such a nice video. As well as an education, it really makes me smile. How yours and Freds live are enriched by this work  I was amazed at the steam feed pipe glowing. There are so many pointers for me to think about.
When was this video made Windy?


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## windy

ericohara said:


> This is such a nice video. As well as an education, it really makes me smile. How yours and Freds live are enriched by this work  I was amazed at the steam feed pipe glowing. There are so many pointers for me to think about.
> When was this video made Windy?



It was about 2017 the steam line was shrouded on mine and Bobs.
I have a photo about what happens when using a steam inlet manifold of wrong material and boat takes off on full power and dunks.
Another of my test session on De Laval nozzles for a steam turbine might just see the red heat at the manifold.


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## ericohara

Wow, I would have been guilty and thought nothing of using EN8. Is the embrittlement due to the heat cycles alone or do you think it is due to the sudden quench of entering the water? Please excuse me if I made a nonsense statement!


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## windy

ericohara said:


> Wow, I would have been guilty and thought nothing of using EN8. Is the embrittlement due to the heat cycles alone or do you think it is due to the sudden quench of entering the water? Please excuse me if I made a nonsense statement!


You are right the sudden quench I had used en8 for years but had nether had such a high speed dunk.
Manifold needs to be tough due to being dismantled often I used to heat my stainless pipe nut then tightened very hard.
All future manifolds were made of en36


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## ericohara

Thank you Windy,
I am going to spend some time gathering my information together this weekend and get some engine details noted and hopefully begin making the crankshaft. I have quite a bit of customer work to do also but will make sure I can have some machining time 
BW.
Eric..


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## windy

ericohara said:


> Thank you Windy,
> I am going to spend some time gathering my information together this weekend and get some engine details noted and hopefully begin making the crankshaft. I have quite a bit of customer work to do also but will make sure I can have some machining time
> BW.
> Eric..


Any advice you may require just ask will tell you the materials I used for starters my crankshaft is en24t with big end linear bearing shaft and pinned to stop it maybe coming adrift.


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## ericohara

Thank you Windy,
Would you taper pin the big end journal after press fitting?
I think my first engine is going to be smaller than yours, perhaps 7/8 bore. A little like the Spartan and your drawings but scaled down as this is intended for the retro early 20s hydro build. But at the same time, I will make notes and sketches from info such as yours to compile a sketch for a bigger engine for an up to date Hydroplane.
With best wishes.
Eric..


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## James Barker

This is a fascinating thread. I find it quite interesting to hear of the details in learning from previous attempts and also the tribulations during the same trials. 

BC1
Jim


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## windy

James Barker said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I find it quite interesting to hear of the details in learning from previous attempts and also the tribulations during the same trials.
> 
> BC1
> Jim


Jim,
This is the fascination of experimental engineering especially when an amateur with a passion for all things mechanical.
My full size sports and my branch of model engineering is what would be classed as a minority interest.
A shame if all the trials and tribulations of eventually becoming a record breaker become lost.
Especially when doing my fastest motorcycle UK one way run on my scrapyard special it shows what can be achieved with limited machine tools and not much money.
Suppose if a book was wrote of my misdeeds it should be called How Not to Break Speed Records.
Some years ago Bob Kirtley a past steam hydro model record holder a person who I have a lot of respect for his article in ME was the cause of me having a go mentioned about us doing an updated book on flash steam.
Apart from the serious side of record attempts despite disasters some have been painful to my body  I have a smile and joke about it.
Enjoy the speed attempts challenges and never give up.
Couple of shots of some major disasters they have been posted before also had a phone call this morning to arrange getting my lathe and mill knob twiddling hand sorted at the hospital.
A pain in the arse no my hand.
Have been spending too much time on the computer hopefully can get back to knob twiddling when hand sorted.


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