# horizontal bandsaw doing a slow hip-hop



## zeeprogrammer (Oct 31, 2009)

I have one of those import horizontal/vertical bandsaws that you can get from Harbor Freight. (Pretty happy with it thus far.)

Up to now...smooth cutting action. Today, I put a 3/8" bar of brass in and noticed that every second or two, the arm bounced up a little. Much slower rate than it takes for the blade to rotate completely.

Has anyone else seen this or know what it is?

I haven't investigated more yet...kinda want to work on the part I chopped off. I've been out of the shop for the LAST SIX DAYS! Heck...I don't even want to be taking the time to type this. ;D


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## Metal Mickey (Oct 31, 2009)

If it happened once per rev then the weld sometimes can do that on a worn blade, however in your case I would have a look at the teeth since some may have gone in a couple of places.....for what its worth.......MM


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## vlmarshall (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah, you've broken a tooth or a few.
It'll eventually get worse, as the saw bounces up and comes back down on the following teeth, it'll break them off as well...


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## mklotz (Oct 31, 2009)

Preemptory hint here...

If you must buy a new blade, spend the money to get good bi-metal blades. They'll last much longer. Buy at least two so you have a reserve when one breaks at a most inconvenient time.


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks all. Thanks too for the tip. Well...now I have another excuse to go shopping.

I'll check the blade before I go and make sure.

Thanks again.


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## black85vette (Oct 31, 2009)

Agree with Marv. I am done with cheap blades. Also, get a couple of blades with different teeth per inch. More TPI on thin material and less TPI on thick.

I ordered my Starrett bi-metal blades from Travers. They have a page to help you select the correct blade. As I recall they are about $30 each but the cut great.


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks black85vette for the tip.

And I agree...should get better quality.


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## Metal Butcher (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree to agree with all the the previous posters that agreed!

Cheepo blades were a place to start that became a nuisance for me.

Seemed like they were welded together by some one with a bad eye for straightness.

A new blade would make the saw head jump like a jack rabbit on steroid's!

Here's where the very best you can buy is a good choice.

-MB


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## Cedge (Oct 31, 2009)

Zee...
Spend the money to get either Starret or Lenox Bimetal blades. They cost a wee bit more but they are worth it for the increased longevity. A local Lenox dealer turned me onto what is called a "variable tooth" blade that makes even more of a difference. It is designed for use where a range of materials will be cut..... like say... model building? Again.... a little more than the cheap stuff until you realize you are going to buy a lot fewer blades over time.

Steve


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## bentprop (Oct 31, 2009)

I used to buy the cheaper carbon blades,and braze them back together when they broke.
But life's too short,and I got sick of the frequency with which they needed fixing.Since I bought 2 bi-metal blades,I've only broken one through stupidity,e.g. dropping the blade when starting.


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## jwsvandr (Nov 2, 2009)

Ill add vote for buying best quality blade you can afford and using variable tooth blades. I have never had success with the cheapo blades.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I've just been using the blade that came with with the bandsaw.
As I said, I'm pretty happy with the saw.

I'll be getting good replacement blades. The 'variable' teeth is a good tip too. I'd come across that back in February when I first started this little hobby and was learning about cutting metal. (Uh...well...I'm still learning.)


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## mklotz (Nov 2, 2009)

Some more preemptory hints...

Before removing the old blade, note the direction in which the teeth are pointing. I know you're not dumb enough to install the new blade backwards but I know of several old hands who have done so (and, no, it wasn't me).

Try to get a feel for how much tension is on the old blade. These blades like to have beaucoup tension - more than seems at first reasonable. Too little and you'll break the new blade on the first cut.

I get my wife to help me. She has near perfect pitch and can, by "twanging" the blades, tell me when I'm in the right tension regime. I, on the other hand, have near imperfect pitch - people actually ask me not to sing along when the national anthem is played.

Putting a new blade on can look like it requires another three hands. Put the blade in the blade guides first and lash it in place with those "twisty-ties" from the supermarket. Then get the blade seated on the wheels while you crank the adjustment to put on enough tension to hold everything in place. Remove the twisties before using the saw. (Did I need to tell you that?)


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks for the tips Marv.
Yeah I was going to check everything before replacing.
I knew about 'twanging' the blade...but if you could tell me what note I'm looking for then...like you...I'll get my wife to help.


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## mklotz (Nov 2, 2009)

Plunk your magic twanger before dismounting the old blade. Then try to get a note close to that with the new blade.

It's an admittedly inexact process. They make tools for measuring blade tension but they're overpriced and overkill for our purposes.


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## putputman (Nov 2, 2009)

Marv, I have been in this game only a couple years longer than you, but I never thought about using "twisty ties" to help me install the blades in my band saw. Thanks a million. It will probably save me a million "not so nice words".


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 2, 2009)

I guess you could use an electronic tuning device to measure the pitch of the tang IIRC you can pick one up for around $ 20. You can even use it to tune your guitar etc.
Tin


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## mklotz (Nov 2, 2009)

putputman  said:
			
		

> Marv, I have been in this game only a couple years longer than you, but I never thought about using "twisty ties" to help me install the blades in my band saw. Thanks a million. It will probably save me a million "not so nice words".



Glad to be of help. Now, if I could just figure out something to do with those little plastic things on the bread wrappers.

Be careful with the stored up epithets. They can build up pressure until you erupt into spontaneous Tourette-like outbursts.


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## Kermit (Nov 2, 2009)

The blade should deflect about it's own width when lightly pushed. It will deflect to almost any degree but you have to push hard to do it. A light push that is comfortable on the finger tip doing it should get a slight deflection, if you don't then it's to tight!

I found my little bandsaw to be very picky about blade tension. To much and it will derail itself when I lift it off a cut. To little and it will derail itself when I let it down completely on a cut. 

This will probably turn out to be a quirk with my saw only !  

Muddying the waters just a little more for ya Zee,
Kermit ;D


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## Cedge (Nov 2, 2009)

Marv
Thanks for the twisty thing idea. That one will make blade changes a bit less stressful although I'm gonna miss having a valid excuse to express myself so freely...(grin). I definitely won't miss the scratches on my hands and arms. Blood thinners are a *****.

Steve


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## black85vette (Nov 2, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Plunk your magic twanger



Marv; I think there were a number of people who missed that reference. :big:


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 2, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Plunk your magic twanger before dismounting the old blade.



 Rof}

I did miss that. But it's better if you quote the whole thing.

Good one. Bunch of old....


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## retrodyne (Nov 2, 2009)

Hi Ho Zeeprogram

Here is a tip that might help installing a new blade. Get at least 2 cheap metal spring clamps, fairly strong. Woodworkers use them for holding flat wood while gluing. With saw standing up install blade in the guides first then rotate or push blade back and surrounding the pulleys. I usually put both clamps on the bottom or drive pulley to hold the blade where it belongs. Now your hands are free to install on the top pulley and adjust enough tension to keep it there while you check everything before removing the clamps.

Good luck 

Retrodyne


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks retrodyne and welcome to the forum.

Hit the Welcome thread and tell us about yourself.

If you've been reading the forum you already know we like pics and videos. If you just started...well...we like pics and videos!


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 2, 2009)

Oops. Just found out where the phrase 'Plunk your magic twanger' came from. Just a little before my time. I do remember Andy Devine though.


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## Kermit (Nov 2, 2009)

Glad I could help then.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 3, 2009)

Glad you said something kermit. I had missed your post. The tension tip is helpful.

I wouldn't be surprised if my bandsaw has the same quirks...if I remember right, we have the same one.

Maybe a silly question...do you turn on the saw and then bring it down to cut or do you bring it down and then turn it on? I suspect the answer is not what I've been doing. ;D

Thanks.


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## Kermit (Nov 3, 2009)

I've had lots of luck with turning it on first and letting it go around a bit, before putting it to the metal. SO much luck in fact, that I've never even tried it the other way.  


Mine does the sine wave wiggle as well when I saw something. It is due to the weld, but has a few more smaller wiggles that are just oscillations of the one the weld spot sets up.  The weld passes the cut and the saw jumps a bit, then jumps a little smaller with each bounce till the weld comes back around and starts it off with a big bounce again. Perhaps mine is not as "jumpy" as yours is, but it depends on the blade I use as to how much the bandsaw bucks.  Gotta be those welds. Some blades are cheap ones and if I checked I bet it is those that are the 'bumpier' of the bunch.

But the rickety little baby will make an amazingly straight cut, so I'm leaving well enough alone for now... 


Kermit


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 3, 2009)

Well now I can tell you NOT to try it the other way ;D.

Kinda stupid now that I think about it. Probably broke one or more teeth every time I started the thing.

I don't think the weld had anything to do with it...the hop seems a lot slower than the rate of rotation...besides...it started rather suddenly.

Thanks kermit.


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## rake60 (Nov 3, 2009)

The manufactures manual does make a few suggestions.











Rick


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 3, 2009)

My manual doesn't have that chart. That'll be useful...thanks.

It also didn't have as clear instructions. It was 'somewhat' buried. Step 9 in fact.

Still...I apparently need to change my glasses and read the manual thoroughly. ;D

I was rereading and came across a one-liner that said a too slow speed can cause teeth to break. I'm thinking that also contributed. Things were fine until I cut a somewhat large piece of aluminum that seemed to take forever. It was after that that I noticed the problem. Checking further, I believe the speed was too low for aluminum.

Thanks Rick.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

I could start a new thread or open an old wound...
I've made my choice...

Against everyone's advice...I bought a cheapo blade. Not having replaced a blade before, I figured I had a pretty good chance of damaging it. So I decided I'd learn on this one and then switch to something better.

Now...at the risk of the answer being..."You dolt! It's the cheapo blade"....

Backing up just bit...
I had busted some teeth due to incorrect usage in applying the blade and the wrong speed. This gave a slow hip-hop action to the system as the blade bounced off the material. Shortly thereafter, the blade snapped.

Today I went about replacing the blade. Here's my observations and what happened...(nothing bad...but I have questions)...

I couldn't believe the amount of aluminum crud all over...so I spent some time cleaning everything out and figuring out what's what. Instructions mentioned some parts by number...but the illustration didn't contain them.

I checked the clearance between the blade guide bearings...supposed to be less than .001" clearance between them and the blade. I used shims to check that. The gap was slightly bigger. However, instructions talked about using a hex key to loosen the nuts to make adjustment. Hm....no hole for a hex key. And I couldn't see how I could adjust the bearings closer. So I didn't do anything (for now).

I suspect I just have to loosen the nut with a wrench...put sufficient shims between the bearings, squeeze them together, and then tighten it up again. Is that right?

I was surprised by how the blade gets twisted as it comes off the drive wheel, through the bearings, and onto the idler. I can see now why Marv suggested using twist ties. Sheesh that was fun.

Got things tightened up and 'twanged'.

Then it was time to check blade tracking. I was surprised it was so far off. Is that unusual? I followed the instructions and adjusted the screw until I saw the blade track the idler 'properly'. However, I noticed the blade was a little further out on the drive wheel. I don't see any way to adjust it better. While adjusting the blade I could hear a light click every few seconds. I think it was the weld going by. Changing the tracking made it come and go. Is that unusual?

As I said...cheapo blade...the weld spot seems weak. It looks like you could bend it back and forth two or three times and it might snap. When I unwound it I discovered the teeth were facing the wrong direction. It took me a while to realize what happened and that I needed to twist it inside/out. Luckily I had discovered the weld issue. I put the blade in a vise (with the weld in the jaws), and twisted the blade inside/out. That went very well and I have to admit I was bit proud of myself. ;D

Now for the part I'm unhappy with. I set it up to cut a bar of 12L14. Although it cut very well and much more quickly than I had expected, the blade pops up every 2 and half seconds or so. (I was running at 200. It's a 64" blade.) And, when it comes down...I get a little bit of smoke from the cutting oil as the blade grabs.

So that's the part I don't understand...and the part that's (I hoping) is most likely...the cheapo blade...maybe the weld.

Any thoughts...good or bad...are welcome.

Thanks. Sorry it's a long post.


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## Cedge (Dec 16, 2009)

Carl
It's not unusual for cheapo blades to have some amount of mismatch at the weld point. That will give you the hopscotch thing you've got going on. The blade will cut great... for a little while, then it goes down hill pretty rapidly. The jumping will eventually weaken the blade at the weld and it will fail due to the beating it's taking.

Bimetal... variable tooth.... gotta trust me......LOL

Steve


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## black85vette (Dec 16, 2009)

Repeat after Steve over and over again.....

Bimetal... variable tooth, Bimetal... variable tooth, Bimetal... variable tooth.


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## black85vette (Dec 16, 2009)

BTW; first time I bought a new blade and went to put it on, it uncoiled "inside-out".  I cussed and spit and fumed about those idiots selling me a blade that ran the wrong direction. Finally figured it out and calmed down, but it did mess with me for a bit. :big:


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks guys.
Actually pretty happy. Learned quite a lot about the bandsaw. The cheapo blade was small insurance to get that learning without ruining a more expensive blade.

black85vette...yeah...that was my first thought too..."What? I got the wrong one?"

For other people like me (and I know you're out there as I happen to be at the bottom of the heap)...

Wear gloves and glasses.
It comes folded up and tied. Be real careful when removing the ties. The thing will spring on you.


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## vlmarshall (Dec 16, 2009)

Be careful with the OLD blade too. Dull, or broken, it'll bite.

When I'm changing blades, I'll usually fold the old blade and break it in a few places so it's not such a springy monster, waiting to jump out of the trash and grab someone.


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## Deanofid (Dec 16, 2009)

I'll second Vernon's advice about breaking up that old blade, but save some short pieces. You never know when you will need a short piece of really thin tool steel.

Dean


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

Excellent advice Vernon and Dean.
Thanks very much. I'll be sure to do that.


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## ksouers (Dec 16, 2009)

zee,
I have the same bandsaw.
This may seem a little odd, but how much weight is being applied by the blade to the work? I don't expect a number.
At the back of the saw is a handle that looks like one side of a bicycle handlebar and grip. It's connect to a spring through a piece of all-thread and a hook or loop. Turning that grip will change the weight that bears down on the piece being cut. If it's too light the saw could bounce.

Might want to try adjusting that spring to see how it cuts.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks Kevin...I'll look into it.
Would changing the blade affect that tension? It was cutting fine before.
I just went through the manual...nothing about what to set the feed rate (tension) to. Any rules of thumb?


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## ksouers (Dec 16, 2009)

Blade tension should not affect the weight.

Sorry, I don't have a rule of thumb. I suppose there is an optimum weight but I don't know what it is.

For me, it's one of those "feely" things, I just adjusted it till the blade was settled in and not bouncing, and then a bit more till I got a steady cut.

The motor counter-balances the saw fairly well so it's not that heavy and you should be able to lift it easily, but if it feels like it wants to come up on it's own you've probably got too much tension on the spring.

I'd guess it feels somewhere between 5 and 10 pounds when lifting by that little cast loop handle.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks Kevin. That gives me a good idea.


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## Seanol (Dec 17, 2009)

Zee,
The bearing guides should have a hex flange behind the bearing. When you loosen the nut holding the bearing you put a thin wrench (should have come with the saw) and rotate the bearing. It is an eccentric and will move in or out depending on how much you rotate it.

I did mine with a square on the vise bed as you can move the blade forward and backwards enough to put it out of alignment. Move the saw up and down against the blade to check for square. This drove me nuts for a while with crooked cuts!

Also, use a straight edge and check that the 2 drive pulleys are in line. Mine were out and once I aligned them I had no more issues with different blades needing a different alignment.

Hope that helps,
Sean


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 17, 2009)

Thanks Sean.
I'll look again. Get more light on it. Maybe I was looking at the wrong place.
Thanks!


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## Seanol (Dec 17, 2009)

Zee.
No problem. You may have a different type. That type has a swiveling base that the bearings attach. On this type I believe you set them perpendicular to the table but I am not sure.

Try this site for more info: http://www.mini-lathe.com/Bandsaw/Bandsaw.htm

Worked for me in the past.

Let me know if you need anything else,
Sean
(who is getting a new blade made tomorrow and can't believe how lost he is without it!)


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 17, 2009)

Thanks Sean.

I took a look at the mini-lathe site. I was surprised! I didn't know it had info on the bandsaw.

Same bandsaw...so I'm just not looking carefully enough.



			
				Seanol  said:
			
		

> Let me know if you need anything else,



hm....you betcha!


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