# Setting up my new shop



## Bogstandard

I am banging my head against the wall and chewing the bricks that fall out.
I have emptied my shop as much as I can, and hopefully next week the old machinery will be gone, and I will be able to start repairing the damage to the walls caused by all the shelves and bits and bobs I've stuck to the walls over the years. Then it will be just a matter for waiting for the new machines to be delivered and installed.

For the last few days, I have been ordering all the small machinery and all new tooling that will be required for the new machines. I am lucky that most of it will be paid for by kind donations, with a little bit coming from my own pocket. So I am lucky in that I have at least £10K ($20K) to play with. A model engineers dream, but this workshop will also have to keep the wolves from the door, so it has to be set up for small sized production runs as well. So now, instead of making do with bits I have around the shop, it has to be set up to allow me to do almost any job that comes thru the door.

I was expecting at least a week for delivery of most of the items, giving me a bit of breathing space, but the very efficient Arc Euro, Axminster and Chronos plus a few independents had me opening boxes for the last few days. 
A major problem has now occurred, I have nowhere to store all the stuff until my old machines have gone, as it will impair the removal of them.
So I am having to improvise, the pic below shows a few of the 5C collets and racks that I couldn't fit into the shop.







More bits are due tomorrow, so it looks like the wife will be sleeping in the bath.

John


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## zeusrekning

Very glad to here it John, just wish you had more room to strech out. Ever think of asking the wife to switch the house for the shop When we bought our house I was more interested in a garage than the house. So after we closed on it I was happy there was at least a house here for the wife and kids. Hadn't paid much attention before that 
Good Luck
Tim


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## Brass_Machine

I definitely understand the shopping for a new house Tim... When we bought ours I was more interested in the garage, or at least the room to rebuild the garage ;D

John, sounds like you are making headway. I am very jealous. Just stop banging your head against the wall... You don't need to be any more brain damaged than required!

Keep the pictures coming, I will live my dream of a new shop through you!

Eric


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## Bogstandard

Eric,

What it is, I have been machining for so long, even when I was partially disabled. 
Now I have been forced to stop, I am machining in my mind, making imaginary parts, and solving machining problems before I have even tackled them. I think I have built the Liney Halo at least a couple of times. It will be dead easy when I come to physically make it.
I keep saying to myself, only another couple of months.

John


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## CrewCab

John ...... just use your time constructively, perhaps you could write ........ 

_"An idiot's guide to home model machining"_

You could always dedicate it to me so you have someone to blame   ;D

Given your wealth of experience and sense of humour it should be a best seller, plus the ten follow up's to progress from the basics ............ then you can have a workshop any size you want and Mrs BS can have her bed back.

CC


PS: are you sure you aren't a collet or two short, I can only count 86 ........  









OK .............. getting mi' coat


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## Twinsquirrel

Looking forward to lots of lovely pictures of your workshop when it's finished John and all the wonderful "objets d'art" you will be producing. And very excited to see how you are going to bling up the Halo.

Oh and I'm sure I could find a use..  some storage space for some of that kit :big: ;D : 

David


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## Bogstandard

CC

I won't have time for writing for the next few years, I have a living to make, when I retire, maybe, but by then my brain cell will most probably be worn out. My last attempt is downloaded from here somewhere.

The collets you see are only the round ones, full sets of metric & imperial, the square holed ones haven't arrived yet. Not getting hex, as they can be easily and accurately held in standard round ones.

David,

This has to be a fully functional workshop, so all unnecessary items have all now gone. No electric hand tools except for a Dremel clone, everything will be air driven by a compressor that will be situated in the 'back room' of my shop. So it is designed in a slightly different way to my old shop. Less bench space, more machinery. You should be able to see it starting to progress in a week or two.

I have an old poppet valve engine that I have been promising myself to finish off before the Halo starts, this will let me get used to and fine tune the machinery. The Halo won't have any bling at all, as it is going to be a reference article that anyone should be able to use for building one. There will be a couple of optional inlet and exhaust mods that I have already built in my head, but that is about it.

John


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## Brass_Machine

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> ... I think I have built the Liney Halo at least a couple of times. It will be dead easy when I come to physically make it.
> I keep saying to myself, only another couple of months.
> 
> John



I can't wait to see the build progress.


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## CrewCab

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> when I retire, maybe, but by then *my brain cell* will most probably be worn out.



I suspect *"it"* will outlast us all John 

Good luck with the workshop renovations and I hope the new equipment is "in transit" ......... very much looking forward to the BS treatment of the Halo 8)


Now go take Mrs BS an extra pillow, the bath can't be all that comfortable 

CC


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## Bogstandard

Just to show what I am having to put up with. When normally I can drop my hands on almost anything I need.






Now I can't find anything. Even the dog is going thru stress, he can't find his bed which was normally on a shelf under my bench, which is now outside. I have to unlock the shop for him each morning, and he sleeps on my chair, and lock it up last thing at night.






There are boxes everywhere, and that is after I spent most of today getting all the bits packed into fewer boxes. I have even had to put the newly delivered benchtop power hacksaw on the floor, there is nowhere else to put it. It weighs well over 1 cwt.
I did have a play about with my new state of the art DRO that is going onto the mill.
I was very surprised when I saw that it reads to five decimal places when in imperial, and four in metric. But I don't suppose I will ever need that sort of accuracy. My lathe DRO's will be the same, as they are the same generation of readouts and slides.

Next time you see it, hopefully the lathe and miller will be gone, and I will be able to get some of the stuff put into more suitable storage places.

BTW, all the bubble wrap that comes in the boxes makes a great mattress and pillow for the wife. The only problem is, she keeps waking me up from my beauty sleep when she turns over, all those little 'pops' echo when they burst in the bath.

John


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## CrewCab

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> I have even had to put the newly delivered benchtop power hacksaw on the floor,



Benchtop Power Hacksaw  ............ John please tell me more 

CC


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## Bogstandard

CC,

I bought mine from Axminster

http://www.axminster.co.uk/sessionI...-Axminster-SIEG-G1-Powered-Hacksaw-366124.htm

This cost £240 ($480) including delivery, Arc Euro do them for around the same price when you add their delivery charge, just a different colour. Mine will go better with the colour scheme of my new machinery.

I was surprised when it arrived, I expected it to be a tin plate job. But no, it is a real solid bit of cast iron, and very well made indeed.

The overall length required for fitting is 31" (it grows backwards when the arm is lifted). This one can handle 5" bar. I tried it on a lump of cold rolled steel the other day, and it went thru it like it wasn't there.

I always prefer a hacksaw rather than a bandsaw as they tend to cut a lot straighter, they have a much more rigid blade (about £6 ($12) each). Don't know how long the blades last, but if you go by the ones I used in industry, a long time. When they do eventually go blunt or break, they can be ground up into great knives or scrapers.

John


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## CrewCab

That sounds interesting 8) ............ I'd been thinking about *This one* but the hacksaw, although dearer seems a better proposition. 

Cheers ;D

CC


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## CrewCab

John, looking through the specs I see it has an auto cut off switch, .... good thing  ....... in the bandsaw link I posted the info says it has auto cut off *but* Warco advise me it doesn't ...  ..... so anyone looking at this model, please take care.

Anyway, waffle over, another question though, in your opinion is it advisable to use a coolant pump for cutting steel?

Dave ............. errrrrrrrrrr  CC  :


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## Bogstandard

Dave,

I am contemplating making a small drip tray and putting coolant on it. It does tend to make the blades last a lot longer.

BUT then I thought, how often will it be cutting large billets of metal.

BUT then I thought, it should really have coolant on anyway.

BUT then I thought, ................................................................

Still undecided over that one, time, trouble and expense over a bit of blade life.

BUT then I thought, it is better to have coolant on a power hacksaw than coolant on a bandsaw, as the coolant isn't sent all the way thru the machine, as happens with a bandsaw.

My brain hurts. I wish people wouldn't ask questions like that.

John


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## Bogstandard

The start of a new era, a tearful farewell to the old.

I saw this afternoon, my old friends being carefully loaded into the back of a big van.
All the years of adventures untold, going to a new home, hopefully to start a new set of adventures for the new newbie owner. I hope he has the same liking for my old machinery as I did. If he does, he will be rewarded with many more faithful years that these two machines still have to offer.

So to the future. Now back up and running, firing on all cylinders. So my old avatar is back, and I have now got to make a decent workshop out of this echoing shell.






The left hand side shelves won't be touched, they are in the right position and what is on them will be given a good going over and anything that hasn't been used in the last ten years will be shown the way out.

My old little pedestal drill is destined for a new home, but its stand will be used for my new 8" buffing machine, that just so happened to turn up this morning, in the guise of an offhand grinder. An hour later, it is now my bright orange el cheapo polishing machine.

The surface grinder will be put on the opposite wall between the lathe and mill, with a screen to protect the new machines from abrasive dust. While the machines were in the process of being stripped, a friend turned up with some very large 10mm thick, brand new, polycarb sheet, with more to follow. So it looks like the screen idea is off the drawing board and almost a definite maybe.

So the new adventure is starting, plug all the holes in the walls, get them painted, and eagerly await the arrival of my new metal munchers.

I think I might go out tomorrow and treat myself to a small mig welder, I haven't had welding facilities for years, and I think it is now time to get some. That will also mean a trip to the scrappies to stock up a bit with steel tubing. 

Busy days ahead.

Bandit is still looking for his bed.

John


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## Cedge

John ain't got no tools!!.... John ain't got no tools!!.... Neener Neener Neener...LOL.

Steve


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## Bogstandard

Steve,

I would be very careful if I was you.

I haven't done a big tool gloat, YET, but any more of that sort of taunting, you just might get a few grands worth of piccies. With a lot more to follow as they turn up.

Boggy Bigbucks.


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## chuck foster

tool gloats are good :big:   ;D 8)  

let the games begin.................

chuck


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## Cedge

oooops... it's those darned annoying voices again... they aren't always controllable, ya know...LOL

Steve


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## rake60

You had better get it together soon John.

I certainly looks like Bandit's patience are beginning to wear thin there! 

Not to mention I'm looking forward to seeing come together...

Rick


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## CrewCab

Poor ol' Bandit thinks you've sold his basket as well as the machine's 

Neer mind John t'will all come reight soon, ......  8) ...... in the meantime you can keep busy counting collets .............. anyway, look back to the blast finger engine comp, all you need is a penknife, string and gaffer tape  ;D and you will probably still be streets ahead of most of us 

CC


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## MattMoore

I just thought I should post a message on this thread . . the big holes created my the missing machinery were caused by me ;D ;D
It's all waiting in the garage until I can get the workshop ready for them within a week or so.
It took 2 tries to come and collect the machinery, the first attempt resulted in a broken fuel pump on the van less than 5 miles from Johns house 
Second time though my Dad and I made it.
Thanks for the machinery John, and in helping load the van.
I just hope I can live up to the expectations created by owning this pair of machines

Matt


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## CrewCab

MattMoore  said:
			
		

> I just hope I can live up to the expectations created by owning this pair of machines



Welcome aboard Matt ;D ............. don't worry, your off to a good start equipment wise, no doubt you'll add the rest ;D

Look forward to seeing what you get up to 8)

CC


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## Bogstandard

Matt,

I didn't want to mention your name as it is a personal thing when deals are struck.

But now you are out in the open, I hope you are happy with the deal you got, and if you need any help, I am only a phone call or email away.

I really liked your attitude to the acceptance of old machinery. If looked after and cherished, they can better a lot of new machinery hands down. I showed you the basics of my (now yours) lathe, and you would be hard pushed to find the same facilities on new machinery costing thousands more. I hope you liked the demo of parting off under power, that impresses everyone.

Just enjoy every minute of your new, soon to be found skills, and you won't regret anything.

Be safe, be happy.

John


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## Bogstandard

Right, starting from scratch again, I had a mate round and he suggested a few things that might help with my congestion in the shop. Isn't it nice having input to help, I was really struggling on how I was going to fit everything in.

When I built the shop, I put a partition wall in, that gave me a small 4ft wide storage shed, to put all the dreaded garden equipment and other stuff. Last week the final bit of the garden was finished. The only things that will grow in it is weeds, it is covered all over in paving slabs and gravel. So all garden stuff is now out, except for the weedkiller sprayer and power washer. My garden maintenance is now 30 mins every couple of months spraying weedkiller and half a day a year, power washing down the paving slabs.

Anyway back to enjoyable bits. My man suggested putting the miller across the corner, the one on Bandit's left in the pic. I was going to do that anyway, but he also suggested I put my surface grinder across the other corner, on Bandits right hand side. Then, punch a doorway thru the partion between the two machines (on the wall behind Bandit), build a substantial high bench in there, put the new compressor under the bench with all my inside metal stash as well. Then on top of the bench put all my little used machinery, 3 in 1 roll, guillotine and bender, plus the heavy presses and everything else that I use very rarely. Most of my problems have now been solved.

The neighbour who I like, is a bit of a woodworker, so he has already had his instructions on what is needed, with payment being first choice of the things I am throwing out. Just got to get a few people organised to come down and pick up the things I said they could have for nothing, and all is set to start very soon.

Even though I have no machines, I still go down to the scrapyard to pick up some cheap materials. Went down yesterday and the place was devoid of almost everything. The price of brass has shot up to £3 ($6) a kilo, a month ago £2. So they got rid when they could make a real good profit. Anyway all I managed to get were four 6" diameter by about 1" to 1.5" thick brass bar end. Weighed in at 9 kilos (£27). They will make great looking flywheels.

Peter (HS93) sent me an email with a picture of I think Dick Dastardly & Mutley, and said I should change my avatar. I personally like to think I am a bit more like Wallace and bandit is Gromit. So until I cut my first piece of metal in anger on my new machines, I am changing my piccy yet again.

The big throwout starts on Monday, so I will start to show a few piccies of the progress.

Bogs


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## Divided He ad

I like the new avatar John....Very fitting :big: 

I see a message in there somewhere!...... P.M. incoming ;D 

Looking forward to the new shop then..... It is a little like working hard for your own Xmas prezzie! But at least you know you will like this one ;D 




Ralph.


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## Bogstandard

I wasn't getting at you Ralph, your earmarked bits are nothing compared to what has to go.

I think I have enough hand tools to start my own two bay garage, so if you need any, and see anything while you are visiting, just ask and it will be yours. 

A workshop, to me, should be like an old pair of slippers. Something you feel real comfortable in, with no hassles. My old layout was just like that, I could scoot about on my chair, and find and do almost anything I wanted with no problems. I am hoping this one will be the same. There is nothing worse than struggling with a shop layout when you are in the process of making something.

John


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## CallMeAL

Setting up a shop was/is great fun. I can imagine it is very enjoyable for you start from scratch and "do it right". I've been "setting" mine up for the last three years and it isn't even close to how I want it to be, I keep getting side tracked on some project I want to do. This is why I mentioned elsewhere, I like to put all my machines on wheels or portable stands so I can move them around if I need to.

I look forward to see your "final solution"


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## bretk

John,

 I like your new avitar, so long as you don't start building a rocket to take you and bandit to the moon to harvest some cheese ! :big: :big: :big:


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## Bogstandard

Bret, now that is a good idea, I am partial to a bit of Stilton.

The work now starts. The time has arrived to get my finger out and get it done, planned time, about a fortnight if all goes well. I am having to rely on other people so timescales can get lost.

So here is the primer, just to see what is to be done in the first stages.

This is part of my rear garden, it contains my shop. I have moved the bench base where it is easy to move around for when the machines come. I put Bandit's bed under it, and he seems happy enough now he has found his old place in the world.
Outside access is thru the metal door at the end of the shop, when the exercise is finished, it will be locked up from the inside and access will only be thru the shop. But if something nasty were to happen, I will be able to use this door as an escape route.
If you notice the large bushes at the back, that is where most of the wooden finger engine came from. I hate the chap that lives there with a vengance. I will tell you a story sometime, about when a gang of us took down a 30ft tree in his garden while he was at work.







This is a closer picture of the entrance door. If you notice at the right hand side of the door, there is a gate. This gives access, thru a narrow opening onto a concreted area behind the shop, and I think I will be putting a small plastic storage shed in there, so not everything has to be disposed of.







This now shows the problem I am up against, all this has to be removed before anything can be done. It is layers deep with tools, motors, metal and WHY. A typical garden storage shed.
If you look at the top of the ic, there is a red circle. I was putting the ladders back the other day and accidently hit the cement board roof, duly causing a nasty open crack. When I purchased the bits to make the shop, I ensured that a few spare panels came with it, as you do. So this can be repaired in about an hour, by unbolting the offending part, sliding the old out and new in, drill and rebolt. 







X marks the spot. This is where the new sliding door will be, hopefully self closing by putting a slight angle on the support runners.
I also have a fairly large storage area above the workshop ceiling, there is all sorts stored up there at the moment, but it offers a way out for lighter items to disappear into there.






So everything starts in earnest this evening, when it cools down a bit. It must be touching 70 deg F at the moment, a bit too warm just yet. I have got the yolk out for the wife, she can do all the heavy stuff, it really makes me sweat watching her struggling.

Bogs


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## Bogstandard

First tool gloat coming up.

Just ordered this a few minutes ago.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/sev11c-ol-air-compressor

This will be going into the first stage part of the shop rebuild.
I was going to put in a vertical compressor, but because the HP was too high for my normal mains supply, I have had to go with a max of 2HP, also this will fit under the bench, so taking up no walking area space.

There will be no electrical hand tools in my workshop at all, in fact I am thinking of making an air driven very high speed precision mini pedestal drill (40- 50K rpm). The die grinder motor to power it is under £10 ($20). A bit noisier than electrics, but much cheaper than a dedicated electrical one, and a lot easier to control the speed. It isn't as though it will be on permanently.

John


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## DickDastardly40

I look forward to seeing your 2 stage turbine running off that compressor John, and seeing how it goes ands sounds with 9 CFM to push it around and 100 litres in the tank.


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## Circlip

Was the 30 footer the beautiful Leylandi John? ? :big:
 I know how much you strive for precision so hanging a door to "Fall" must grate a bit, String, weight, pulley? We had one like this on the toolrooom sliding door when I was an underpaid slave(apprentice) Some of the "Lads" waited till the foreman went to his ab looshuns and added one or two lumps of tool steel onto the end. Oh there was a wrending of teeth and a gnashing of hair when he got back in. And verily he did chastise us.
 Regards Ian


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## Bogstandard

Al,

I think even the little turbine will have trouble emptying this one. better have have too much than not enough.

Ian, 

It was actually a 30ft Ash tree. My garden used to be like the black hole of Calcutta until it mysteriously disappeared.
Actually I am hoping the door will use gravity rather than weights.

John


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## Twinsquirrel

Hi John, Those are a really nice compressor, I have just upgraded from a similar unit on 2 of my vans. I never really had any problems with them apart from replacing the auto cut off switch 3 times on 1 of the units ( I still have no idea why it kept failing), thankfully they usually fail safe.

I have been trialing these funny little recieverless units which are just incredible. They are twin cylinder oil-less 11.6 CFM. The only reason I am trying these is that there are rumours about new EU legislation on compressors in working vehicles but I have been really pleasantly surprised by the performance and they are so small!! 

http://gentilin.trustpass.alibaba.com/product/101226148/C330_03_Air_Compressor.html

not long now 'till you can start marmalising some metal!!

David


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## DickDastardly40

David,

What's the ball park price of that compressor please, not that I have a need but am terminally nosy.

Al


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## Twinsquirrel

Hi Al,

From memory they are around £350 trade probably a little more retail. My supplier is not far from you in Portsmouth www.smartexpress.co.uk...


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## kvom

I have a small 12 gallon unoiled compressor, and it's really noisy. I recently bought a 60 gallon oiled vertical that will go into the new shop when built. Much quieter.

I also have a 20 lb. CO2 tank that I use for offroading (i.e., re-inflating tires). I've also used it to run nail guns, inflate beach toys, etc., any place where the compressor won't go. I suspect I'll be using that for any model engines I eventually build as it's easy to regulate the pressure.


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## Bogstandard

David, 
They look a very nicely made bit of kit, unfortunately I have ordered mine now.

I also have to buy a second compressor, for when I go to shows to run my engines.
I am looking at this one, but they are so damned expensive to be used a couple or three times a year, and this is about the cheapest on the market for the size I want.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...mpressor-324/path/ultra-quiet-air-compressors

John


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## kvom

Wouldn't a Viair 12V compressor work for shows?


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## Bogstandard

Kvom,

I don't think it would be able to keep up with half a dozen or even more, hungry little engines.

John


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## CrewCab

I've got one of those compressors in the garage John (the one you've just ordered that is) : ............... had it about 2 years and it's been great, tad noisy but I don't tend to run it after the 11:00pm watershed . It copes very well with most of my air tools, even the 1/2" windy gun which my little compressor struggled to turn over.

The smaller one it replaced I thought about selling, but as I was unlikely to get much in return it stayed with me ............ and now sits under the bench in the workshop proving very useful .............. particularly for cleaning up the lathe and mill ......... much better than a brush 

Anyway, back to small compressors, isn't there a thread on here somewhere about building one ???

CC

Dave


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## Bogstandard

Dave, 
It isn't just a matter of just having a compressor, if it was that, it would be easy.

When you display at country shows, there is no air for engines provided, just electricity. So what you have to have is a silent compressor with a fairly large output.
I borrowed a friends one in previous years, but now that my display is growing, that will be running flat out continuously just trying to keep up. In fact last year, I had to wait for ten minutes between runs for the single turbine engine, just so that I stood a chance of getting it up to speed.

Just a little update.

Managed to get all the 'stuff' out of the back shed. I blindfolded myself while the wife dumped a load of it into the wheelie bin. A lot of it is being given away to needy people. I hate selling small items that I have had my use of, I prefer it to go to a good home with a little bit of goodwill.

So if all goes well, tomorrow the compressor will be in it's final position, and the bench can be built around it. 

John


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## Bogstandard

I how now gone past the point of no return. The suit is now in deep storage, and I am now again in scruff order, t-shirt and bib 'n brace.

Ralph came this morning and took away the last of the problem contraband, so now I have a clear run at the now almost empty 'bottom shed'. As you can see, the compressor is in its final position, but not yet piped in or wiggly amps connected.

After my always welcome visitor departed for home, I duly descended on the wall and hacked it out. It has worked out rather well. I can't put a full width door in there, because of machines on the other side, but the gap between the studs has worked out well and I can easily get my portly figure thru it.
Bandit (the sausage on four cocktail stick legs), really approves of the mods, but is always in the way, whenever I move anywhere, even outside, he is never more than a few feet away. At least it looks like someone enjoys my company.







Here is the hole from the workshop side, it looks more narrow than it really is, I can walk straight thru and my shoulders clear either side. I am not really worried anyway, it won't be a place I frequent often, only quickie cut up and forming jobs will be done in there.
There will be a machine on either side of the doorway, across the corner, surface grinder on the left, mill on the right.






So I will try to get the door finished for tomorrow, then a poke with a sharp stick to the neighbour, and he can come in and fit custom benches.

One thing I have noticed, since I opened up the hole and with both metal doors open, there is a lovely through flow of air, so no more sweating in the summer.

Time for a fag and a cup of coffee.

John

I forgot to mention, Ralph brought his new engine with him, it looks even better in real life, a real corker.


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## Divided He ad

Now that's a much bigger hole in the wall than there was this morning John!

I have yet to start to read my way through the huge wedge of 'contraband' but will spend a bit of time on some of it tomorrow... There has to be some usefull stuff in 100+ magazines!!! (I'll tell you how well the little puffer is received tomorrow  )

Summer..... Did I read that correctly.... Yep you said summer... do you know something I don't? :big: 

Well at least for 5 days a year you have natural air conditioning ;D 


Glad you liked the engine John.... Cut out and all :big: 

I'll have to start on my new one tonight ;D 



Ralph.


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## John S

David,
How quiet are those compressors ?
I have two stuck up in what used to be the hay loft, my front workshop is an old stable.
The first one is a direct drive 2 Hp 3 phase unit I bought a few years ago on a largish tank, maybe 200 litres ?

Only problem with this is that it's incredibly noisy, like REAL NOISY. Not too much of a problem during the day as it only had to fill the tank up for the odd blow down job.

Then I got the big CNC which has air clutches and tool changer so I bought a recon Hydrovane compressor as it can run late at night and still be quiet as the workshop is close to a neighbor.

I can swap between the two if I get problems and both compressors have had the tanks linked so it stores about 400 litres of air at a build up.

I don't want to run the direct drive unit again though unless I'm really forced due to the noise so it would be nice to know if there are other alternatives.

.


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## Bogstandard

Summer,

Sorry about that Ralph, I was reminiscing about a different century.

John


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## Bogstandard

Now we're cookin' with gas.

I got the neighbour involved this afternoon, to come and build the supports for the new benchtops. The hardest part was getting the holes thru the concrete walls to support all the weight that is going in here.

This is my offering, I managed to get the rough hole tidied up, an' put wood 'cross t'ole.
It looks rather narrow, but I can walk straight thru without my shoulders touching either side. Going thru sideways is a different matter. It seems I am thicker than wider.







Two and a half hours saw the framing for the benches in, the support legs will not be fixed to the floor until all weight is on the benchtops.
The bit across the door will be for my power hacksaw. I will be able to cut up to 12" long with the door closed, or with it open, a lot longer. Also I will be able to use the outside door for bringing in large metal lengths rather than smashing everything if I bring it thru the main shop.
The compressor can be pulled out sideways if needed, and brought out under the end bench, and thru the door. Just in case it needs a repair job on it.
As usual, the nose on legs is never far away. He is such a fixture, I didn't notice he was there until after I had got the piccy ready for uploading.






This shows the sliding door from the other side. It is amazing how easily it slides, and the space it saves over a conventional door.
I have decided against having it self closing, but have adjusted it for minuscule effort to move it.






So, take out a second mortgage to buy the benchtops, get a few wiggly amps into a couple of wall sockets and a florescent light, and it should be almost done for the time being.

John


----------



## JohnS

Ah yes John but don't forget to bung up that crack in the roof - a bit of cheese from Gromit should do it !

John S


----------



## Bogstandard

John, 

A bit of a change since you saw it earlier this afternoon.

The crack will be sorted very soon, I am expecting my mentor sometime this week, so he can get up there and fix it. I daren't get up there, if I did, expect a rather larger hole in the roof.

BTW, your engine now looks great.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

I keep going on about my storage problem at the moment. All should be fixed by tomorrow as the benchtops are in, just got to get the backboards for the shelves sorted and all my short term storage problems will be sorted.

This is what I have had to do, the cat normally sleeps in here at night, but he's had an eviction notice. This is about 10% of my problem. Every nook and cranny in my very secure garden is now stuffed up with bits like this. I couldn't leave getting them any later, as they will be required as soon as the machines are commissioned.






I have been told my lathe won't be in the country for another four weeks, so I am arranging to bring in the problem miller in about ten days time, so all modding work on the shop has to be completed by then.

The mill will take a couple of weeks to put into commission anyway, as I have to fit the new DRO system, plus get it set up and adjusted correctly. Also because John S has kindly made me one of his power supply boxes, I will be fitting a fourth el cheapo axis to the quill. Nice one John.

Bad Back Bogs


----------



## rake60

John I can't help but notice Bandit is beginning to look more comfortable
with the changing surrounding. 

It's shaping up nicely.
I'm certainly enjoying the progress pics!

Rick


----------



## shred

What's with the climbing rope? The occasional bit of abseiling off the scrapheap? ;D


----------



## Bogstandard

Rick,

Bandit is loving it, the only problem is, he can cope with normal doors, but can't get the hang of the slider. All you can hear is him banging his head against the door. Mind you, haven't we all been there at one time or another.

Shred,

As I have said before I am very reluctant to throw anything away, That is just another example. But it has helped me out a few times. What I found underneath it is the major thing. Two very thick wall copper pipe ends, perfect for making boilers for locos, not that I will ever make a loco, but they are there if ever I get the urge.

The shop has come on a bit now, work surfaces are on, main backboard is done, just a smaller one to fit. Most of the electrics are in and working, just got to wire in the compressor with a no volt release. Then I can start on the main shop.

John


----------



## shred

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Shred,
> 
> As I have said before I am very reluctant to throw anything away, That is just another example. But it has helped me out a few times. What I found underneath it is the major thing. Two very thick wall copper pipe ends, perfect for making boilers for locos, not that I will ever make a loco, but they are there if ever I get the urge.


I've got the same disease... in fact I happen to have a couple retired climbing ropes stashed on a shelf too...


----------



## Bogstandard

Another bit of the boring saga, but at least this bit is nearing the end.

I have blasted on the last couple of days and managed to get all the electrics in and backboards fitted, ready for shelving to come from the main shop. So this is the new layout for what used to be the garden shed.

This first pic shows the metal cutting area. With these three machines I will be able to do serious damage to anything that passes thru here. I have been relying on my little bandsaw for too long, it will now be able to take it a little easier.







Four machines in two. With this pair I can cut sheet, bend, roll and punch/assemble.
All machines are at a height specifically to myself, no bending or stooping for me from now on.







This shot taken from inside the main shop shows the main reason for the conversion. To house the larger compressor, which is controlled by the switch box on the left hand side of the door frame, this stops the compressor from overloading my workshop electrics if anything goes wrong.







Happy bunny bogs in his new rabbit hole. A big difference from when it was first shown to the public as a storage shed. The thing hanging up at the back is now the only bit of garden equipment I will need, and that will be located outside very soon.
You will notice a funny shaped marking on the base of the big saw towards the motor end. My mentor decided to put his thumb under the base of the saw, the saw won. So the new shop has been christened. All my mate was worried about was whether he could still roll a cigarette with a duff thumb.







This is the only real failure. Two of us couldn't lift it onto the bench (it weighs about 2 cwt), plus there was no room for it to go anyway. If anyone reading this is interested in obtaining it, I will be posting it soon in the for sale section. If it doesn't go, the sledge hammer man will turn it into bits for little engines. That reminds me, Ralph, I may have a little job for you.






So that is the first stage basically over, a few of the shelves from the main shop will be put in here, a few small shelves fitted under the bench, then all the tooling I have bought will be stored in here until needed. 

John


----------



## Metal Mickey

I can see your an Axminster tools man...........I have the bender, their branding on a RF25 milling machine and the hacksaw. I thought I was being clever and made a stand for it to sit on. To help keep the shop tidy and storage I put it on wheels. Big mistake! Moves forward and backwards nicely......... :big:


----------



## Bogstandard

Mike,

One of the main reasons I go for Axminster is not that they are any better than the competitors, is that what you see is what you pay. Everything up front, no hidden extras, no trying to make people think yours is the cheapest by putting vat or delivery or both in small lettering somewhere nearby. I only deal with those that do that is because I can't get it anywhere else. If I see a site with no prices on at all or phone for prices, they are history. 
On the other hand, touch wood, I have never had a single complaint about any of Axminsters tools and tooling I have bought.
A lot of others, supposedly catering for the model engineering fraternity, would do well to follow their lead. It only takes one miscalculation for a person to be put of a supplier for life. Why does VAT have to be added as a separate transaction if catering for the non business population. Maybe they think they can attract a few more buyers from overseas.
A good example was a supplier on eblay that would only take payment over the phone. I purchased a set of parallels for £19.95p buy it now. I phoned up to make the payment, by the time he had added vat and second class postage it came to nearly £30. I never read the small print. He was a major supplier from the shows, and he will never get any custom from me again.

Moan over

You now see why mine sits on the bench rather than wheels. After it has had a bit of use and the perfect position is found, only then will it be bolted down.

Bogs


----------



## CrewCab

Thanks for the tip about the power hacksaw John, I bought one from the same source as my Mill, same hacksaw but blue : ............. changed the blade and it's made a new machine out of it.

Dave


----------



## Bogstandard

Dave,

What you have to remember with power hacksaws, they usually cut on the backwards stroke for some reason (does anyone know why?), so you have to mount the blade with the teeth facing backwards.
Just another bit of useless info.

John


----------



## te_gui

Just a guess on why they cut backward but if memory serves that pulls the work into the fixed jaw of the vice. This seem more stable to me anyway, I know the continuous blade bandsaws all seem to run with the blade pulling the work against the fixed jaw as well, at least all I have run in the last 20 years.

Brian


----------



## Bogstandard

Thanks for that Brian, it seems very logical when you think about it.

Thats what comes with not thinking


John


----------



## Circlip

I never had any success pushing a piece of string :big: It's the rigidity thing John, same theory as climb millling.
 Regards Ian.
 PS. Most top wood hackers swear by the "Japanese" pull saws. Sadly it used to be an old apprentice trick to put the blade in "Backwards" in the hacksaw frame, much rending of teeth and gnashing of hair.


----------



## Bogstandard

Ian,

That was my favourite trick with apprentices, it took them forever to saw thru a thin bar. Then you got the ones who thought it was caused by a blunt blade, changed it, but put it in the same way the old one came out. No logical thinking some people.

John


----------



## Circlip

You little (big) tinker :big: :big: :big:


----------



## Divided He ad

Sorry about the late reply 





> That reminds me, Ralph, I may have a little job for you.


.... I've been camping (no that does not refer to dressing up and waving at strange men!!) 4 days of glorious British sunsine and 2 random hours of rain in the middle... Who could complain about that? Not me ;D (it's taking a while to wade through the missed posts!!) 


What little job is that then John? ...I may be interested in that 'super duper thumping thingy' myself.... If it isn't gone already? (don't know where the hell I'd fit it in but I'd sure try!! ;D )

I like what you've done with the place too ;D Looks like a shop is coming together  



Ralph.


----------



## Bogstandard

Ralph,

The little job would be putting a sledge thru that 2 cwt of 'super duper thumping thingy' . It is such a lot of cast iron to go to waste if I take it down the scrappies.
If you think the surface plate was heavy, even someone your size would have trouble going it alone.

By the way, that 'super duper thumping thingy' is in fact a toggle press and worth a rather large dollop of readies, even second hand. Great for punching holes in things, and putting together bits that shouldn't really fit, they have no option. Give me a call and make me an offer I can't refuse, and that doesn't mean taking bandits' head off.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

This is for Steve,

Now is the right time for a tool gloat. I ain't got no tools, but I got the tooling.

Today, I managed to get the storage shed to a stage where I could store tooling rather than junk. So all my little storage areas around the garden were nearly emptied, some things couldn't go in because they are too large or needed for the main shop.
This what it looks like now from the outside, very similar to what I started out with.








Now to start the listing, a full set of 1/64th 5c collets, a full set of 1mm 5c collets, a set of imperial square 5c, a set of metric square 5c. Hex aren't needed, that can be held in standard round if you are careful on placement.
Piled onto the bandsaw are sets of parallels, good quality replaceable tipped tooling for the lathe (all my tooling is now standardised, if you include the profile tool and parting off tool, to three tip types), magnetic v-blocks, plus other things that come in boxes.







This is a wide shot of other bits and pieces for the machines.
A lot of special stuff amongst this lot, an Arc Euro spin indexer, that accepts both ER32 and 5c collets, a lovely conversion job by them, very ingenious. A few new bandsaw blades for the old diehard Black and Decker, this has been an indispensable machine for more years than I can remember, and is as good today as it ever was, one of my best birthday gifts ever. The other bits I will do a close up explanation.







These bits are for the largest conversions on my soon to be delivered (hopefully) new mill and lathe. A 3 axis readout for the mill, plus a read head for the z axis knee (it comes with x & y already fitted). Also two read heads for the lathe, coupled with the two that will come already fitted, will give me 4 axis readout.







This is the first closeup shot. Amongst this lot are a 5" 3 jaw, a 5" four jaw self centering (both plus soft jaws), a ready fitted D1-4 5C collet chuck, 160mm 4 jaw self centering (plus soft jaws), plus all required backplates. The collet and 160mm chucks will be fitted to the lathe. The 5" ones are destined for my rotary tables and dividing head. I have decided to go for a standard fitting for my 5" chucks, that is standard myford, so both chucks will fit all RT's in a matter of seconds.
In the middle is a 3MT mandrel with a rotating disc fitted. This will be turned to accept an 80mm chuck, and is destined for the tailstock on the lathe.







This shot shows from right to left, a load of assorted pneumatic tools ranging from high speed cut off saw to powered screwdriver and file. Below them are rolls of emery that I have been picking up off eBay at ridiculously low prices.
The air tools are sitting on boxes of reamers, plus next to them are a new set of boring tools plus a range of mag bases for dti's and mill chip screens.
Next along are wheels and soaps for the new 8" buffing machine, followed by DTI's, more lathe tooling and parallels.







This shot shows a few of the drill sets in here (there are more at the back of the shelves) plus the head and readout for the quill on the mill and a kindly donated power supply for it made by our own John S of triple Halo fame.







On here are various sizes hand tightening drill chucks, to be used on the mill, and in the lathe tailstock, plus two that will be fitted onto a six head tailstock turret, that will also have rotating centre, tapping and dieing heads plus a centre drill head. The very small Jacobs chuck is going to be used for making a very high speed air powered drilling machine.
Also there, but not in full view is a set of very expensive expanding mandrels, that work on a reverse ER collet system. I have two more sizes of that to buy yet, then I will have the full set of 5.5mm to 25mm+.
Lots of mandrels and adaptors as well. Also on there are a high quality three head flycutter and a couple of new internal mic's.






Methinks you have had enough by now, so I will leave the rest to a future time, maybe when I have them all by the new machinery.

Gloat temporarily over.

Bogs


----------



## Divided He ad

Been there, seen that.... Seriously I have been there and seen all of that!! ;D 
It was kind of all over the place in various nooks and cranny's! 

Good to see the place shaping up John ;D 

I really will have to earn a lot to be able to get half way to what you have there.... Better learn how most of it works first before I go trying to afford it though Ehh?? 

Just two loverly big machines to go in and your almost sorted! ;D 


Ralph.


----------



## CrewCab

Good to see things are progressing Bogsie  ........... any updated machine delivery dates, or at least do we know if the ship has left harbour yet ................ good luck with the "climbing wall" syndrome, ....... perhaps   try a modest application of alcohol if all else fails  


Anyway, back to important things, where's Bandit's bed going ;D

CC


----------



## Bogstandard

Ralph,

When it is all finished, you can come down and play as much as you like to learn how everything works.

Just a note here, a lot of this stuff is totally uneccessary in our little shops and doing what we do. Most of this stuff is for other work, that has to be turned around quickly, so time saving is the essence. Rather than making a mandrel to hold a part, I can just get one from a rack that will do the job straight away. For what we do on here, time doesn't come into it.

The offer to Ralph is also open to anyone who cares to drop in. I live just off the M6 half way up the country, so if you are on a long journey and fancy a break for an hour, just call in for a coffee. No charge, just good hospitality and chew the fat a bit.

If you need a bit of assistance with something, say your lathe isn't big enough to make the part you want, the offer is also open. In fact I will be having an open workshop most of the time. If you are going to be in the area, a quick call and you can just drop in for a chat. There is only one problem, once Bandit gets to know you, you will be licked into submission.

Dave,

I am hoping to bring the mill in some time next week, it depends how quick Chester UK can get all the mods done, the lathe comes into the country at the end of August.

Bandit will be having a special shelf made for under my bench, basically where it was before, just a bit more comfortable. He will be able to stretch out on his back with legs in the air, his usual pose when sleeping.

Bogs


----------



## CrewCab

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Bandit will be able to stretch out on his back with legs in the air, his usual pose when sleeping



Good to hear the lil' feller is in the equation ;D .............. he sounds a bit like one of my swarf magnets :






Dave


----------



## Cedge

John
It was terribly nice of Chester UK to let you wander around in their place with your camera...(evil grin). Well stocked shelves they have there... eh? I will be almost as happy to see you get back to work as your wife will be...LOL

It would appear you're going to have a shop to make any machinist salivate. The only problem is that you'll have so many toys that you won't be able to find the one you want, for the next couple of years.

Supremely jealous
Steve 

Who's $20.00 tail stock turret buy, today, suddenly pales to insignificance....LOL


----------



## Divided He ad

You know I'm going to have to come down to help you test the accuracy of your new machines John... How else will I get to see Marv's flywheel prog' working.... I'm sure that once I see someone do it then I will be able to pick it up quite quickly.... I've always been better watch and learn rather than read and translate!?! 
I will also have many other questions though... like 'whats that for' (the most common one!) and how did you do that? :big:

I bet your all excited now as the dawn of the mill approaches ;D 



Ralph.

(Steve... what's a tailstock turret.... do I need one  :big: )


----------



## Bogstandard

Ralph,

If you go down the page a bit on here, you will come across a tailstock turret.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathe-Accessories

Bit of a slow site, but if you wait all will be revealed.

John


----------



## bentprop

John,there will now be 1048 members drooling all over their keyboards :big:
I just hope that when you've got your shop up and running,you don't "burn out" the enjoyment of machining.Don't let stress get the better of you.
But if you're as laid back as your posts suggest,I don't think we need to worry.Then there's always Bandit to keep you sane .


----------



## John S

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> The offer to Ralph is also open to anyone who cares to drop in. I live just off the M6 half way up the country, so if you are on a long journey and fancy a break for an hour, just call in for a coffee. No charge, just good hospitality and chew the fat a bit.
> 
> 
> Bogs



That's handy, I am often up and down the A500 doing the Newcastle, Warrington, St Helens run.

.


----------



## Bogstandard

Bentprop,

I would in all fairness have loved to have gone with older, better quality machinery and tooling. But because I am on a budget for this exercise (£10k), I decided to go the Far Eastern route (or east European). It is no use bringing in large super quality machinery, if after it is all installed you can't move in there. Doing it the way I have, the machinery, because of such a choice, can be suited to the size of the workshop. It just means that I will have to spend a little more time fine tuning to get them to an acceptable level. 
Don't get me wrong on this though, a minute portion of the tooling is rather suspect, but I have also found that the majority of it is now well above good useable standards. If I had tried to do this using home grown tooling, my budget would have to be doubled at least.
But even through all this, my engineering prowess always comes back to my two favourites, my Starrett edge finder and my Verdict DTI. Get the little bits right and the big bits will follow.


John,

It couldn't be easier, as the A500 meets J16 of the M6 carry on for Crewe, and then follow the sign for the hospital, it takes you right past my house about 10 to 15 mins later. If no one answers the front door, ring the little bell above the side gate and you will be greeted by Bandit first, then me dragging my heels from the workshop.

John


----------



## John S

John, 
Thanks, I do a fair bit of traveling for these CNC machines. Horncastle, Ashbourne and Leicester already this week so it's handy to have break point built into a run 
Beats sitting in a cafe when you have like minded folk to share idea's with.

The guy who does a lot of my electronics boards is on the A500 at Newcastle but the J15 end.

BTW I'm pleased you liked my spin indexer.


----------



## Bogstandard

John,

The spin indexer mod you have carried out is really a bit of a triumph, simple, but will do the job admirably. Just the sort of mods I like.

I will in fact be taking it a little further. 
Like squaring it up on the outside of the base and cutting notches on the bottom of the base so that it can be dropped onto parallels in the vice. 
Another little thing that needs looking at is the disc fixing, not just on yours, but all of this mark. I think I will be pinning it into position before the tightening ring goes on, just to stop it accidently turning out of register with the actual spindle.

Now if those mods could be done at the factory, you would have hell of a lump of more accurate and easily set tooling, way ahead of anything else on the market.

Another one of Arc's products I am really impressed with is the straight shank expanding mandrels (quick release).

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Expanding-Mandrels

If they work as good as they look, they are going to save me hours on set up and machining times.


John


----------



## John S

Yes John those expanding mandrels do work well, I have a couple of sets for jobs I get repeats of.

I am also impressed with these expanding 5C's

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Collets/5C-Expanding-Collets

I have bought a few and turned them to fit special jobs with a known bore size and these are blind bores.
You can expand them from the allen screw on the end if you can get access but in blind bores the drawbar pulls the thread and the allen screw back so they expand.

I have now started getting a set of standard ones and using a split sleeve to get the size I want to save turning specials all the while.

This is also a handy bit of kit if you can hold 5C's

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=b01b4b54-5755-4cb3-8b34-e9dc6ca0180c

Gives you the means to use ER collets with more range.

To get back to workshop visits and calling in when on the road, I work from home doing emergency repair work and also CNC conversions. I'm just off the M1 at junctions 24 or 25 if anyone wants to break a journey anytime and get a coffee.


----------



## Bogstandard

John,

I have been using the 5c expanding collets for a few years now, and came to the same conclusion as yourself. Make split rings for them. I have done a few over the years, but unfortunately can't trace them at the moment, they were in a loose Lin-Bin, just hope the better half didn't think they were junk when she cleaned the shop out. She's already 'moved' one of a set of three cams on an engine I was prototyping, so another full set has to be made, as they were all made on a very tight, and I don't think, repeatable PCD.

Anyway, it was the making of 'extras' to tooling that made me go for the set of expanding mandrels. If all goes well I can just select and use rather than having to machine something up. I am expecting the largest two of the set to be delivered tomorrow. It looks like I will have to go to the 2MT sets if I need larger diameters.
My problem is, being a far eastern import lathe, the headstock starts off at 5MT, so stepdowns have to be used to get to the much smaller 2MT, so maybe inducing more tolerance errors, the straight shank ones will fit into my normal collet chuck.

John


----------



## John S

John, 
Is this any good ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-5-Morse-Taper-Drill-sleeve-fully-hardened-and-ground_W0QQitemZ220254173848


----------



## Bogstandard

I looked on his site yesterday, but could only find the 4 to 2, I will get one bought tonight.

Thanks for that

John


----------



## Bogstandard

To get back on track with this long winded post, I will give you a verbal update. I don't think you need to look at holes to be filled in, and me sitting there for hours sorting nuts and bolts into their new homes.

So basically the new bit is crammed full of all sorts, just so that I can work in the shop without falling over things. In seven hours today, all I managed to do was put up four bin racks, one small shelf and assemble two collet racks. The rest of the time was spent sitting down and sorting over ten years of misfiling. Nuts, bolts, springs, bearings are all now in their new correct slots. Just got to finish the ad hoc stuff tomorrow. Then I can fill the holes and give it a coat of paint (only in the parts that really need it).

My mentor turned up this morning and he came up with a good idea. I was going to use the 10mm thick sheets of perspex that I was given, to make screens between the machines. He came up with the idea of cheap washable roller blinds mounted from the ceiling. We are both owed favours from a chap that makes household blinds (we have made him some special tooling for doing the job), so it looks like I will be getting a few freebie samples to try out and see if they work.

If all goes well tomorrow, I will take a couple of pics of the main shop to show you how it is progressing.

BTW, all the time I have spent in the shop, Bandit was never more than a few feet away, so it looks like he really approves of all the shakeup. He was scratching at the shop door at 5.30 this morning, so I had to let him in for a look round before we went out for a stroll.

Bogs


----------



## Bogstandard

I know you all like looking at pretty pics rather than reading, so a few shots of the minuscule progress I have made over the last couple of days.

I have taken out most probably about two hundred metal drywall fastenings over the last couple of days. Where I have put up a shelf here and there, as and when required.
The only problem is, you end up with walls that look like Machine Gun Kelly has been practicing.








What you see here is only a small portion of the holes that have to be filled and painted over.







So a few long shelves taken down, only to be replaced with more holes. These racks are covering up a load of holes, but what the eye can't see.......
Under these will eventually be where my workbench will be, so all the items I require have been brought into one area, rather than being spread around the shop.







So this is what I have been sorting out for the last couple of days. This is my bearing rack, still have a few more to add yet. Sorted into type, small, medium and large, plus prepacked. They are a mixture of imperial and metric, but that causes no trouble, because I can measure in both.







I also sorted a few springs and small nuts and bolts. So at least now, I only have to select what type, compression or tension, instead of searching for hours for one that will do the job.







The little Herbert Jnr grinder is in its new position, across the corner. It will have to be moved again soon, as I need to get behind it to fill holes and paint the walls.
The box to the left will not be there in the final shop setup, there will be a retractable blind hanging from the ceiling in that position, in an attempt to keep dust from spreading too far into the shop.







As I mentioned in my previous post, the new room at the end is full of all sorts. I have mounted my inside stash boxes onto rolling trays. 







When my bench finally comes in, the stash boxes will be rolled underneath, to give me better access to the materials.






So basically, things are progressing, albeit slowly, aches and pains, plus coupled with finding I have more stuff than I thought I had, has delayed things a little, as I decide what I can safely get rid off. 
I think visitors will be going home with more than they came with.

John


----------



## JohnS

Its looking good John - you are now into the enjoyable part of the job. I particularly like the roller blind idea, could be a good solution in providing a non bouncing wall in the polishing bay. I still havent found one of the parts for my radial engine that went AWOL three weeks ago during polishing. 

I do think you should have a touch of Laura Ashley on the walls rather than plain old emulsion. I am sure Bandit would prefer it.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

John,

Laura Ashley my a**e. I have got gallons of the original paint, so Bandit will have to wear his shades for a bit.

How is this for service. Called up at just after 8 this morning, delivered just after 10.






Three roller blinds, custom made to fit. Cost - free samples, and they came with a smile, returning a favour.

It pays in the long run to help people out, they remember just who they can rely on, and who their friends are.

John


----------



## John S

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> I think visitors will be going home with more than they came with.
> 
> John



Please send spare engraving brass to :-

Poor John
C/O The Old Stable,
Hard up lane
Nether Hadany

.


----------



## Bogstandard

If that isn't begging John, I don't know what is.

In all honesty, if you need me to get you some, they do sometimes have it down at the scrappies I use. Not massive sheets but very useful sizes. Usually they have been cut very slightly off square, I also only take the bits that still have the protective coating on, saves hell of a lot of repolishing.

I managed to get Ralph some a while back, and I don't think he had any complaints at all.

You must remember though, scrap brass prices have shot thru the roof, but it still should be a lot cheaper than buying it wholesale or retail.

BTW, I took delivery of my 5 to 2 MT adapter yesterday, just got to cut the tang end off so that I can use a drawbar thru it. Thanks for that.

Another BTW, I am trying to get my mill brought in tomorrow, so it looks like I will be burning the midnight oil to get its location finished off.

John


----------



## John S

John, Just a wind up.

I am fortunate in that in a previous life I had 19 years working on commercial vehicles.
Because of the close knit community of scrappies, intermarriage etc we did most of the vehicles for all the larger scrap dealers in this area.

This got you on site and able to go anywhere in the yards even when H&S came into play.

Unfortunately many have sold out, been bought up and the fathers have passed away but I am still able to go round two of the larger yards in this area and still get reasonable deals given the current prices.

Nothing like the old days when they would 'weigh' a shoe box literally full of dial gauges in their hand and remark
"Don't weigh anything, you can have it "

The best one of which I became very firm friends with the two brothers who owned it and still are even though they have retired and sold the land off for building had the contract for Erricsons telephones, later Plessey.

These people had 7 tool rooms and made everything needed on site including their own taps and dies. Nothing was sold, everything went for scrap if not needed.
Two 32 tonners ran into the scrap yard every week with brand new offcuts of steel box, angle and bar.

When they moved off mechanical telephone exchanges onto electronic they started shutting toolrooms and just threw everything. You just had to be their at the right time. A mill might get thrown out for scrap and two weeks later all the tooling, vises, dividing head, rotab etc would get thrown out as well., many of them new and unused.

.


----------



## Bogstandard

You had me hook line and sinker there John, don't worry, my time will come.

It now looks like Steve's time might be here. 

Remember this backstabbing remark



			
				Cedge  said:
			
		

> John ain't got no tools!!.... John ain't got no tools!!.... Neener Neener Neener...LOL.
> 
> Steve



After a couple of hours frantically poking with a sharp stick, my first machine will hopefully be here tomorrow.

The area it is going in isn't finished off yet, but that will now have to wait. I will paint around it. 

Just watch this space.







Bogs


----------



## CrewCab

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Just watch this space.



Bandit's got that covered as far as I can see ;D

CC


----------



## John S

John,
Part of my metal rack if you or any of the UK guys get stuck.











The other rack holds the bars from 3" up to 8".

.


----------



## Divided He ad

John.... Bet you can't wait? Even less sleep than usual tonight I recon? 
We await the pictures of the new baby ;D 

Bandit looks like he is having fun.... He needs a sinister villan to be sitting in the chair stroking him :big: 

************************************

Well Mr Stevenson..... holy [email protected]#%      

How many scrap yards did you buy?!?!?!?!

And how much room do you have in that shop.... Shop envy it is then!! ;D 




Ralph.


----------



## Bogstandard

John,

That lot is absolutely obscene, no wonder there is a metal shortage, and I thought my stash was large.

BTW thanks for the offer, I will be over with an artic this weekend.
Freebies I hope.

John


----------



## John S

No room at all, the clear floor is only because that slotter was delivered the day the photo was taken.
At the moment it's all spoken for although the machines do move in and out as they are worked on.

This is my latest baby.











And not to be outdone by Bandit today I have been working on the headstock door flap which I feel is too big.






.


----------



## Bogstandard

AhA!!! Secret chinese weapon. 

Dual fuel, electric or kitty power.

Bogs


----------



## John S

John,
How did Kevin get on with the mill ?
Enquiring minds want to know ?

.


----------



## Bogstandard

I am a bit late posting tonight, two reasons, had to take the wife out for our aniversary, went for a nice meal and a couple of bevvies. The other reason was as you might have guessed, something turned up today that made me feel that the self imposed exile is almost over.

A flatbed truck reverses up my drive, with what I hope is an undamaged, fully working version of the mill I ordered, with all the accessories and modifications done. 








This joker here, turned up early this morning and gave the shop the once over, and kicked my a**e for suggesting I put the mill where I showed it was going in a previous post.
This is my best friend and mentor, Terry. If it can be drawn, he will most probably be able to make it. This is the man that has kept me from straying for about the last 20 years, and a phone call asking for assistance, will mean he will be there in about 10 mins, no matter what he was doing. The best mate a man could have. But a real task master when it comes to quality. He is the man who tests and inspects a lot of the turbine blades that go into R-R engines on commercial airliners.







Anyway, enough of his life history, he is here to work until he leaves to go to work himself.
Nearly down on my property.








Down onto the ground and stripped of it's protective covering, Tel has to go to work, so it is up to the expert to do his job.







This is Kevin from H&S Engineering, who said he should be able to get this machine into my shop without any stripping down, and also no need to take walls out or roofs off. At a price that was less than a third of the cost of quotes from other machine moving 'specialists'. This was a shot just before he dropped it over the edge of a step, using only a pallet truck with a pallet on it, a bit of dunnage and a few steel pipes, plus an engine hoist to take the weight. Only about 1" clearance either side of the machine.







Down, turned around, lifted up to get a length of ply underneath and pipes put in, ready for the assault on the doorway and it's six inch step up. One major problem was encountered during this installation. The paving slabs that covered my whole garden have a pattern on them that is called Riven pattern. This is like a corrugated effect, but instead of being regular is a random pattern all over, this was a major obstacle. The whole 800+KG could only be moved with a pry bar, one inch at a time.







After nearly two hours of inching along and getting it into position we finally got it thru the door, I forgot to take pics of the actual method, of swinging it in at an angle, moving the table fully one way, then swinging it straight as it was moved forwards. You end up with what is in this pick, just ready to go forwards into the shop.







This is the same position, but from a different angle. Just the back end to go in.







The whole machine is in the shop, sigh of relief. Just a matter of prying and rolling it into position.







This is it's final resting place. Hopefully, I will never have to see it moved again.






Total time, approximately 4 hours, including lunch a few fag and bad back rest breaks. In conclusion. Kevin did what he said could be done, I am a very happy bunny, and not one bit of damage to the machine or my property. In my opinion, a master mover.

Now to the machine itself. The only cleaning that it required was the oil protection on the table, which came off very easily. While Chester UK were doing all the mods, they totally cleaned the machine down and reset everything to a very useable standard, Well done Chester UK. It is now up to myself to fit the third and fourth axis DRO's and fit a power supply for two of the power feeds, Chester couldn't quite be pushed enough to supply that as a freebie.
I did a quickie hookup to check everything out, and all runs perfectly. In fact, the cooling fan in the supply box is noisier than the machine running at full wack.

A good day. 

And to John, I hope all the above explains just how well Kevin did, and how happy I was with his service.

A very tired Bogs.


----------



## Cedge

Damn.... it did fit....LOL. Could you move it to the left just a wee bit more....(grin)

 Your guy sure earned his pay with that move. Congrats John!!

Steve


----------



## Divided He ad

Good stuff John, 4 hours!!!  but at least no damage ;D 

Glad to know it's all falling into place.... Now how's your new floor plan panning out?

I bet you can't wait to get it all working now ehh? ;D




Ralph.


----------



## Bogstandard

Steve,

In fact you are spot on, the machine needs to go over by about 3 or 4 degrees to the left, but that will be done on final levelling, after I have fully finished the fitting of extras and commissioning.
As I mentioned about Kevin, a master at his work. Where anyone else would be driving nails into their forehead, he just quietly came up with solutions as we came across them.

Ralph,

The floor plan took a slight shock with the lathe and mill swapping places at the last minute, but everything else that is planned is staying as is.

So that is it basically, until the lathe comes in. For the next few days I will be sorting out the mill, then putting up the necessary racks and shelves to support it (covering up more holes).
I won't be showing any of that as it isn't major workshop work, so this post will now be a bit quiet until nearer the time the lathe comes in. Unless anyone asks a question that needs answering.

John


----------



## bentprop

Congratulations,John.That's a serious looking bit of kit.I wondered if I was going crazy,or you had reversed the photo of the empty space :big:
But I'm glad to see it all panned out.Don't forget a spot for Bandit's bed! 
Regards from a cold,miserable NZ.Hans.


----------



## Bogstandard

Hans,

It had me confused at first.
Don't worry, Bandits' shelf is already earmarked. 
I would like him to have a least a bit of eye protection when he is in there, but like most animals, anything alien around their head soon ends up on the floor. 
A bit of a poser really, as I don't want to ban him while I'm working. At the moment he spends more time in there than I do, I suppose he is checking to see if his bed is ready yet.

John


----------



## JohnS

What a brilliant day and a fantastic result John. Congratulations - it sure is going to look the business in there and I bet Bandit is mighty pleased too, his masters back in business - well almost. Keep the piccies coming. 

Oh BTW, what I want to know is, when you yawn does Bandit yawn too ? According to this mornings Daily Mail pets do it all the time.

John S


----------



## HS93

Can you not hang a net in front to stop stray bits going his way. ?

Peter


----------



## John S

When I'm hogging big lumps of alloy on the bridgy it throws them everywhere and it's a pain to clear up afterwards.
Recently I got two pieces of conduit, slid two old shower curtains on the tube, knocked two nails in the roof joists at strategic points and rested one end of the tubes on the ram.
the other ends are supported from the nails by two old fan belts.

The chips hit the curtains, drop to the floor where they form two piles and are easy to clean up.
When done they can be rolled up and stood in a corner, not too good to look at when working but they do the job.

.


----------



## DickDastardly40

Looks good John, ya lucky B*gger. 

Got it thro' the door in much the same way as the thread I posted from Practical Machinist then!

Are you going to bolt it down with anchor bolts or leave it free standing once levelled and grout in? If there's a gap underneath when you sweep up, chips will get pushed underneath. I guess there is a drip tray to go on, or to be made of not.


----------



## Bogstandard

Lots of questions and replies to do.

John S,

No he doesn't yawn when I do, but he does have a good trick. 

He can do blacksmithing.

When I break wind, he makes a bolt for the door.


Peter,

The problem is, he is such a nosy little devil, he can be almost anywhere in the shop when I am machining. I just might have to make a lightweight pair of glasses up, and quote H&S at him. He is such a bright little thing, he might just understand.


John St,

I thought of a shower curtain, but because of the size of the place it was not feasible. If you look back a few posts, it shows I have a few retractable blinds that will be fixed permanently to the ceiling. I can get more if needed. Also the machine comes with a large semi circular interlocked guard, I am going to see if it is an effective chip blocker before going any further.


Al,

I showed Kevin the pics from that posting, and the info was duly absorbed. The mill was taken in that way. But in all honesty, the way he carried out the manoeuvre, I think he may have done it a few times like that before. But thanks for the link anyway.

I won't be bolting it down, as the floor is a little uneven (not a lot) and so might twist the main castings. So after levelling, it will have silicone mastic piped all around the base.

There are loads of bits to be fitted yet, including a largish drip tray. That is my job for today. Only after all the bits are fitted can it be levelled then have the DRO bits fitted.

Just a little note about the machine. I have given it a real good dose of looking at this morning. Had to change my overalls because of all the drool.

Except for the paint finish, which is slightly matt, this machine is very well built indeed, no shortcuts or suspect bits anywhere. Maybe it is not really aimed at the hobby market, but at the small production setup, hence the much better quality. I will shout out if I do find anything I don't like, but at the moment, I haven't found anything.

John


----------



## applescotty

John,

Perhaps I missed the answer in the posts above (I did read them), but why the change in the mill's position (besides Terry saying so)?

Scott


----------



## kvom

I visited an extremely well-equipped shop (Randolph's) with Cedge/Tim/George Seal last month. Randolph has the base of all of his machines surrounded in Quikcrete to seal them in and prevent anything rolling undrneath. He stated that he levels a new machine and lets it "settle in" for a few weeks before sealing it that way.

Seemed like a good idea.


----------



## thezetecman

How different in size is that mill from a bridge port ? (short bed maybe)

Looks very very nice. Machine moving is an art.

Both my lathe a horizontal mill are in my ownership because they got damaged while being moved. My pack of cast iron welding rods for £2 has come in very handy.

I think you going to make lots of good stuff in your new work shop, I look forward to your next post


----------



## Bogstandard

Scott,

The decision to relocate was for two main reasons, the first one was because of access to my new storage metal prep area. Terry's statement was 'how the hell are you going to get your gut thru that door while carrying a box', I took the point rather well. The other was even though it doesn't look like it, access to the main electrical box will be a lot easier, and seeing I will be doing a bit in there at the moment, why not make it a permanent thing.
Moving it did cause an issue with the lathe, but that will easily be solved by putting a hole thru the wall into the storage area, to allow me to put long bars thru the headstock. It is OK preplanning, but you can never really think of all the issues involved. Problems are there to be solved, and really I will only get one chance at it, so we solve them as we go along.


Kvom,

That is my usual technique, waiting for everything to settle before fixing permanently. I don't like the concrete method, it is a little too permanent for myself. I can guarantee when I do the silicone fix, nothing will move, unless I want it to.

I will be levelling up either later today or tomorrow, then I can tram up the head to get it ready for setting up the vice.


Now just a little writeup to satisfy Zetec's query.

This isn't a tool boast, but a quickie once over to show everyone what this machine is like. If you wanted to go for a larger machine, but not as large as a Bridgeport.
I have only been able to do a quick run around it, the next few months will tell me just how good or bad it really is. At the moment and with what I have seen, it looks very promising.

This machine is generally classed as an 836. This means it has an 8" wide and 36" long table.
It varies from supplier to supplier what features the machine has, mine is the only model of this size from Chester UK, and seems to be to top of the range with regards to features, but of course it is rather more costly than that from other suppliers, especially ones from the States.
The main difference from this model and a Bridgeport seems to be that overall it is physically smaller and lighter, the head doesn't tilt forwards or back and there is no powered quill feed. The first difference in my situation was the main reason I went for this model, the other two features I can definitely live without.


So here are a few features that come as standard, plus a few that I had fitted.

This machine came with a 2 axis DRO as standard, I am upgrading it to 3 axis, and I have already replaced the readout head. The already fitted read heads are very well protected with aluminium covers and seals to prevent the ingress of swarf and fluids.
The main motor is driven by an inverter, so gives fully variable speed up to 2k RPM, fwds and reverse (I have never used reverse in my life, so I don't know what I will use it for).
It has a spindle brake at the top near the drawbar, and the quill is R8.
On the control box is the switch for the built in coolant system. 
The machine also comes with a waterproof 12volt light.
As I said before, it doesn't have power quill feed, but it still retains the usual drilling handle, and the selectable quill fine downfeed, it also has the usual micrometer depth stop. This area has the only feature I can find fault with. The fine feed has a plastic handle screwed onto a normal metal 3 spoked design. that will be replaced at the first opportunity. 
It has the normal features of a head that can swivel side to side and the turret can move fwds/back on the y axis, plus full turret rotation in the horizontal plane. 







Just a few features on this shot. It comes with an interlinked guard system that actually looks like it may work. It is in the flycutting mode that chips seem to go everywhere, and this screen looks like it will be able to be used rather effectively.
I had to fit the neoprene swarf bellows at the front and a catcher sheet at the back of the table. These really look like they are up to the job, unlike some I have seen before, that may have been made out of paper for as much use as they were. Underneath the neoprene protectors are sliding metal plates to prevent swarf entry to any of the slides or leadscrews. This is one area I think they have really got their act together.
The vice on here is one I managed to negotiate an upgrade, and is a standard Vertex 6" vice. The machine also came with a ER32 chuck and collet set.
All the electronics and electrics are housed in a control box on the side of the machine, what my tools and rag are resting on.







This is the other major part of the machine, and I negotiated rather well for a few extras.
The basic machine comes with X axis power feed, I have had fitted at the factory power feeds for the Y and Z as well. This was for personal health reasons, and normally an X axis feed will be sufficient. All the feeds are fitted with electrical limit switches. 
Another safety feature of this machine are freewheeling handles on all the power driven leadscrews, not a nice thing to be hit by a knee handle turning at a high RPM.
The machine is fitted with a one shot auto lube system that lubricates all the slideways. There are only two other points on the machine that requires an oilcan to lubricate it.
The last main bit is the cutting oil storage, this is cast into the base of the machine. The used oil is fed by gravity pipes from the table into the large drip tray, where it passes thru two swarf filters and back into the tank to be reused.






I would just like to reiterate about why I went for this machine, I will be using it for production work as well as making little (or big) engines. Normally for what we do on this site, something this large is not really needed. But is still nice to have.

I hope you enjoyed this writeup, and if you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask.

Bogs


----------



## Metal Mickey

High John, nice to see the mill has arrived. I am very interested in your experiences with this mill as its the one I aspire too. One question though, and bear in mind I am a novice........with the head how do you 'tram' it up?

On another issue, I have got plans for a Fairey Huntsman (at 1.5" to the foot) for the castings I had from you.....haven't built a model boat for well over 45 years! Need to make the engine work...if I can get it to work!

Mike


----------



## Bogstandard

Mike, 

To do the boat bit first. If I remember rightly, there were Huntsman plans that gave a model of 46.5" long, that is ideal size for a deep 'V' hull for that size and type of engine. For a shallower hull, like the Riva Aquarama, maybe a little larger, say 50" to 54" but keep the build as light as possible by using lightening holes in all the frames.

For tramming, all you are doing is realigning the head to the table, to ensure you are at a perfect right angle. Machines that have a fixed head are not usually 'trammed' because they are supposed to be set up square at the factory, but are very rarely so. It is a matter of using shims in that situation.

Anyway back to this question. Because the head can be swivelled either way from vertical, when you have finished you need to reset the head. I do it with nothing more than a DTI on a right angle bar that is held in the mill collet. Say you have a bar that puts the DTI at 3" or further from the centre axis of the head, you just swing it to one side and feed down until you get a reading off the table face, then without making any adjustments, swing it thru 180 degrees and see if it measures the same on the other side. If it doesn't, adjust the head and try again. Clear as mud he says, so here comes a crap -O - cad sketch.

Bogs


----------



## Metal Mickey

Hello John, thanks for the swift reply. Whats worrying though is that I think I understool that. However i will still be printing out a copy of the engineering drawing you did....... :bow:


----------



## kvom

I learned to tram the head of a Bridgeport that way a couple of weeks ago at my class. While simple in theory, the "trick" is to maintain enough tension on the lock bolts so that you can get a fine adjustment using the worm gear.

I think you can adjust closer to the final position using a machinists square than relying on the degree dial on the machine, prior to checking it with the DI.


----------



## CrewCab

As regards Tramming, John, how long would you expect it to take you it take you to do both X and Y .......... roughly that is : ......  To be honest, I ain't tried it yet but I have visions of being re-discovered in my workshop in the year 2210, still "tramming"  ............... so .... please ........ "save " me 

kvom, I'd always trust a decent square (or one I'd checked) over pre marked dial's, at least till I'd established a reliable datum.

CC


----------



## Bogstandard

Kvom,

This will be the first time I will have trammed this machine, so I will do it to perfection, even if it takes me an hour. When it is done, I will then tap and bend or relocate the register pointer so it aligns as best as physically possible. Then when I come to do it again, I can use the machines scale for initial setup. I do this on all things that have pointers and scales, rotary tables, rotating bases for vices etc. They are there to be used, so why not make them as accurate as possible.

Dave, 

Because this machine is only adjustable on the head in the X axis, there is no reason to tram the Y, unless of course you want to know how far out it is. But on this machine I can't put it right anyway. On a Bridgeport, that can be moved in the Y axis as well, then tramming and adjustment can be done on both X & Y.

I would expect, when I am used to the machine, to take no longer than ten or fifteen minutes at the most.

In fact on my old mill, the X was out by a very small amount, and could only be put right by using shims under the column to kick the head totally upright. I left it as it was, and used the induced backcut on the cutters to give me a better finishing cut.

I won't be doing any of this until the mill has been perfectly levelled. So if you are still in doubt, I will do a post in the hints and tips on how I do it, plus when the ordered clamp bolts come for my vice, I will show how I set that up as well.

When commissioning a machine, it is no use rushing thru things, the better you can set the machine up initially, the better results will come from your efforts. I spent an hour this afternoon just looking at the machine, not drooling, but trying to plan out how everything is going to be set up and in what sequence, so the best results will be obtained.

Bogs


----------



## Bogstandard

I hit a major problem today with the mill.
My own fault really. Because I had all three axis fitted with power feeds, plus the machine came with two axis DRO, and I will be upgrading it to 3 axis DRO.

The problem is, because of all the extra bits for controlling these things all take up space and because crucially, everything is attached around the knee casting, there is no easy place for me to attach the read head for the z axis, as the auto shutoff bar for the z axis power feed sits just where the read head should go. That will teach me for being greedy.

Anyway, me sitting down on a chair, staring at the problem, smoking fags and supping coffee, with Bandit on the other chair, chewing his recently obtained bone, and thinking of pink poodles, we came up with an idea that just might work.

There is one major problem. I need machines to make some of the bits. So with a storeroom full of machines, that I can't use because it will take me hours to get to them, and a miller that I am working on that hasn't even been commissioned, never mind having a vice bolted to it. Not even a vice bolted to a bench. I am up to the challenge to do it with what I have.

I start the assault tomorrow, first thing. So I will take some pics to show if I get around it or not.

Bogs


----------



## lugnut

That's pretty bad when you need a milling machine to set up a milling machine :big:
Mel


----------



## DICKEYBIRD

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Not even a vice bolted to a bench. I am up to the challenge to do it with what I have.
> 
> I start the assault tomorrow, first thing. So I will take some pics to show if I get around it or not.


 Dangit! Wish you weren't so far away. I'm out in the shop at 5:00 AM on a Sunday morning with a fresh pot brewed. You could just bring said stubborn bits along with you and we'd bash 'em into shape in no time!

Bandit could wake up Amber, the sleepy shop cat and chase her around for entertainment as well.


----------



## Divided He ad

If needed John I'm only an hour away! Minimum I could possibly make the part you need and bring it over? 
Just need a crap-o-cad drawing with the dim's on (metric! ;D ) 

offers there if you need it  Will be away from next sat for a week so you'd need to tell me quick!
Then again knowing you, you'll probably make a fully operational one out of your neighbours tree!! :big: 


It's all looking good other than that, by the time you have this all done it should surely be time for the arrival of the lathe? 
Keep us posted,



Ralph.


----------



## John S

Same here John, There's a whole workshop most sitting idle all the time as I can only use three mills and one lathe at the same time ;D

It's actually given me an idea though and I'll do a new post later slabbing the south 40 calls 

.


----------



## Bogstandard

Thanks for all the offers lads.

I am about half way thru it, and up to now I am coping.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

Welcome to one of the most boring posts you will ever encounter, but if it just helps one person solve a problem, it was worthwhile.


I actually reset the first two pics because I was so eager to get started, I totally forgot to take piccies.
This is the problem, the factory had fitted the auto shutoff for the Z axis power feed in the only place available to mount the Z axis DRO read head.








So first things first, get rid of the initial problem, I will come back to that later.
They had already used some DRO mounting brackets, so I decided, if it is good enough for them, it will do for me. 







I am fitting a very rigid cover to the head, so that needed machining. So I quickly bolted the vice to the table, found a couple of cutters to do the job, and duly put the uncommissioned machine to work. WOW!! totally different to my old machine, this took metal off as though it wasn't there. Even though the vice wasn't square and no parallels. V-E-R-Y rigid machine. If this is what it is like now, what will it be like when I get round to setting it up in anger?







This very rigid bar was then screwed to the original brackets, out came my DTI mounted onto a new mag base, that I could just reach in the storage area. By running the Z axis up/down I adjusted the bar to run perfectly true.







I then did the same on the second face.
Now that it was true all round, I could fit the read head onto it knowing that the head will be in perfect position as well.







'Well, what do you think of it so far Bandit?'

'Ruff'

Dog does a quick getaway before a size ten catches up with him.
You might ask the question, why not fit the reader to the bracket and the larger head onto the machine column. Well the destructions say, you should if at all possible have the head mounted onto the moving bit and the reader should be fixed to the rigid part of the machine. The other reason is, that only by doing it this way, will the supplied cover protect the bits correctly from swarf and liquid pentration.







The head and reader come joined together with plastic clips that set everything at the correct spacing within.
I then found the bag that came with all my DRO stuff, so I have a load of brackets I can play around with. So I screwed a flat mounting plate onto the head and used a transfer punch to mark the column in the right place.
The column was then put on the mill table and drilled. Just joking of course, I drilled them with an electric drill and tapped out the holes.







If you look very closely at the mounting plate fixed to the head, I drilled and tapped four holes and fitted jacking screws into them. The reason being, the area of the machine that this plate attaches to is tapered in all sorts of directions, so shimming just will not work. All I did was get everything into the correct positions with the holdown screws located but not tight. Then each jacking screw was screwed in until it just touched the machine frame, then given an extra quarter of a turn, once all four jacking screws were set, the main screws were then tightened. The head also uses four jacking screws and they were given the same treatment. Everything ended up spot on. The plastic holders could then be removed, the protection cover was fitted and the system checked out.







The Z axis readout works perfectly. Even when I push on the read head, it only deflects by 0.0002", and when let go, returns to the previous reading. That will do for me.







Now the main item is up and running, I now had to sort out the problem cause. Luckily, everything I had done still left the mounting holes for the stop bar fully visible.
So I hacked about with some thick walled ali tube and made a pair of spacers so that it could be mounted above the DRO read head.







By hacking about with another bracket and some longer bolts, I got the limit switches into the correct position. The top and bottom stops were then set to suit where I wanted the table to auto stop under power feed.
The cables were tidied up, job finished. 






This looked like a quickie fix, but it has taken most of the day to sort out the problem completely, mainly due to lack of machine tools.

Bogs


----------



## Divided He ad

Innovation at it's best! 

Looks like all is well then John? 

Not long now and you'll be milling away quite happily ;D 

Nice fix and a worth while write up IMO.



Ralph.


----------



## ksouers

Very ingenious fix, John. Well done. :bow:


----------



## Bogstandard

Thanks for the comments lads.

I forgot to tell you about an important bit of information if you want to site a reading head in this position.

I wanted to take the cable 'over the top' to the box.

A problem can occur if you have the cable coming out of the wrong end of the read head.
The armoured cable that comes with these units is almost indestructible in normal use, but they are made by spiral winding. So any liquid falling on the cable will automatically screw itself down the spiral.

I have done one of my rough sketches to show the effect.

As you can see, if you mount the cable coming from the top of the head, any liquid will easily be transferred around the read head. By having a loop at the bottom, the liquid just drips off from the lowest point. You can't stop capillary action running uphill, but this stops most of the problems.

This is true of any cabling that comes into contact with liquids, just putting a loop in the line can prevent liquid ingression.

Bogs


----------



## Bogstandard

The saga of the mill is nearly at an end (thank gods, and cheers from the crowd).
I went over it all with a fine tooth comb and a spanner, and could only find a couple of small niggles. Not one loose screw or bolt, so all seems set fair.

I can honestly say that Chester UK have done a wonderful job with this machine, seeing that they only had two days to prepare and modify it, then get it ready for shipment. 
I can't wait to get my hands on the lathe, if it is up to this standard, I will be well pleased.

After that, I set onto finishing it off. I did the final touching up and is described in this post.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2641.0

These are the only bits wrong that I found.

I mentioned about this before, the plastic handle on the fine feed. Well Arc Euro did it again. A nice polished chrome, internally rotating handle, just under £4 ($8).







It looks good, and matches perfectly with the other handles on the machine.







The plastic handle went into the box earmarked as 'destined for future use'. I'm at it again, saving junk for the sake of it.







This little 'accident waiting for somewhere to happen' I think came about because of the third party upgrade of power feeds. Sometimes the handle would catch and spin over when the power feed was engaged, the gap between the castelations was too close and was occasionally touching. A painful moment if certain unmentionable body parts were in the way. Anyway, a strategically placed washer cured it permanently.







So five days gentle work (and sometimes not) and it is ready to be used.






Time to get a bit of it's tooling out of storage.



Feeling better Bogs.


----------



## ksouers

John,
I hope it's just an illusion, and I trust that it is, but it looks like that X axis handle on the left side could interfere with the wall. I know you wouldn't make a silly mistake like that, but I sure would!!

It's nice to see the spaces filling up properly with machinery. Thanks for sharing this experience with us. I, for one, am enjoying it as if it were my own.


----------



## Bogstandard

Kevin,

It is an illusion, when traversed fully both ways there is still a six inch gap.
One thing I did have to set rather critically was the Z fully up shutoff. At full lift, you can get the table to just reach the quill, I now have it set so it stops just before the vice top. But easy enough to change back if I need it.

I am glad you are liking the post. I didn't do it for posing, I did it so that my time until it is ready will go a little faster, and it also might give some members a few ideas they hadn't thought of.

I think I have mentioned it before, but this shop can be used by almost anyone. If they have a problem making a piece, maybe because it is too big for their machine, they will be welcome to do it here. A bit far for maybe you to come, but within striking range of a few of the UK members. 

I am not experienced enough to solve all problems, but I know a man who can.

John


----------



## Metal Mickey

Looks like its all coming together John, well done. All this to make a little steam engine........we are all mad! But its great..........................................


----------



## Bogstandard

Mike,

These machines are being installed for one major reason, and you will never see any of that. Unless I decide to do some production runs of my own. I haven't done any for a while, so maybe some time soon, I will turn out a few engines for cash exchange, just to keep the workshop topped up with consumables.

But in the spare time between jobs, they will be used to the full to make little engines. But these will allow me to do no more than I could have done on my old machines, except slightly faster. I have said before, big isn't necessary, but nice to have.

Bogs


----------



## malcolmt

*big isn't necessary, but nice to have*
I bet you say that to all the girls !!!

Joking aside, John it's so good to read this sort of write up, as you know i am quite a newish returner to machine work and my budget is minuscule so i can't run to the bigger machines also having to work in my kitchen limits things. But by reading your stuff i can easily understand the importance of correct set up and can strive to set my tools up to a much higher standard than i would before, allowing me to improve finishes and accuracy beyond what my little machines would normally deliver. I am waiting with baited breath to see and read about your lathe set up.
Kind regards

Malcolm


----------



## Bogstandard

Malcolm,

It is years since I've seen my feet, never mind about anything else.

I'm glad you like how I am showing a few things.

I know what it is like working in a very small shop. Before I built this one, I used to have a small back upstairs bedroom to work in. My old mill used to sit on a large 5ft x 4ft sheet of 3/8" stainless, to spread the weight so that it wouldn't go thru the wooden floor, and of course the whole house used to vibrate if I was cutting a bit of rough stuff. You manage with what you have, and always dream of more space.

My shop looks large, but in fact I am very tight for space, and everything has to have its own place. I am just working on the tooling for the mill at the moment and I think I have got it down to a fairly good sized and safe area. 

John


----------



## John S

What is a floor ?

.


----------



## Bogstandard

I know exactly what you mean John.

Farmers are the worst, you go into their workshops in the middle of winter, to find the tools and machines frozen solid into the muddy floor. In the summer you see the remnants of tooling poking out of the dried out earth.

I suppose yours is built onto a clay floor then.

John


----------



## John S

Somewhere I do have a concrete floor but it's disappeared over the years.







This is an old photo of the back place, since this was took I have managed to shoehorn another full sized CNC in there.
At one time we were under the approach path to East Midlands Airport but they have diverted the planes now as it's affecting the compass's on the aircraft coming in to land :


----------



## Bogstandard

John,
Oh! dear me, when did the bomb go off?

How do you get around H&S with that lot? You are liable to get the a**e ripped out of your jeans just by walking thru there. Or is it classed as a private workshop?



But before going any further, I have something to tell you.
I have been banned from painting the insides of my shop. A long story, but my own fault. Just leave it at that. So I have to look at ugly walls for the rest of time.


Now onto what I have been up to.
When I put a new machine in, I like to have the tooling for that machine in the area around it. Other tooling, like mics and verniers and shared tooling, goes into an area between them. By doing it that way, it saves having to root thru boxes to get what you need to do the job.
So I selected a safe place, very close to the machine, got what tools I need, and made a shelf and fittings to fit it all in. Plus a little room for expansion if needed.
Everything has it's own little place, and all are within easy reach.
All my normal cutters will go into the rack below the collets.

Heavyweight tooling, like RT and dividing head etc goes into a steel roller cabinet on the other side of the machine, complete with their related bits and bobs.







So this is what it looks like when viewed from a distance, notice how little space is really needed if a bit of thought is put into it.

This system worked very well in my old shop, so I have stuck with it.







This shows how the area is protected from flying swarf when the machine is in operation. 
Before anyone mentions it, no the handles won't hit the screen, and yes, I need to recast my lead hammer.






I think the thing hanging under the DRO screen is for putting tooling into, the holes are just the right size for collets or tooling mandrels, but I don't like that idea. It will be a perfect place to put a clipboard for holding drawings, save having to use bench space to do that, and I hope it will keep them a bit cleaner.

Now going into the shop to sulk a bit more.

John


----------



## John S

No problem with Health and safety, there something living in the coolant tank under that big lathe that loves H&S guys.
Last one that came in, there was a big rustle, a belch and no more problems.


----------



## NickG

What sort of vice is that you've got John?
Also, the boring head looks good, can you do things like loco cylinders with that? Was thinking of one for that purpose.

Many people do them bolted to the lathe cross slide with a boring bar between centres, however, my harrison doesn't have a slotted cross slide.

Nick


----------



## Bogstandard

Nick,

It is a standard Vertex vice, it came as a freebie upgrade with the machine, but they are available from places like Chronos in all sorts of sizes to suit your machine from around £50+ upwards.

The boring head again, is available from most tool suppliers, and can be bought as a full kit of mandrel to fit your machine, plus a set of boring bars for around £40 for the 2" one, which will bore from about 1/2" up to about 3.5" diameter, or even larger if you fit a boring bar in the horizontal fixing holes. These are designed specifically to be used with a mill.

John


----------



## NickG

That's just the sort of vice I was thinking of getting., think I may go for a boring head too. I've seen them used in the lathe tailstock too, although I guess it's better and more rigid to have one in the tool post.


----------



## Metal Mickey

John, I know I am a novice but I think you have overlooked one very important item. I hope you don't mind me pointing it out but where oh where is the support for your tea cup! You need to consider this item soon.......... :big:


----------



## John S

The problem with vises on milling tables is most of the time they hang off the table, no a big problem if you are machining dry but when using flood coolant it fills your boots up.

I have a series of sheet metal trays made up to fit different jigs and vises depending on how they want to fit the table and on what machine.
They have thru holes for the T bolts and also extra holes that line up with the tee slots for drainage.






This is not a staged shot but an actual job on the big horizontal with full coolant, not the bed and surround are clear of chips.

If you get a job where flying chips are a problem then it's easy to file side screens to collect all the crap.






This was taken to show a speed increaser but it also shows the screens fitted to another of the trays.

Last pic probably shows better what would have gone into your boots ;D






This is a pair of flywheels for a vintage JAP vee twin being machined out.

.


----------



## Bogstandard

Now that the mill has had a good going over, the final part of its checkout was due. How accurate are the slots in the table. This is a major factor when using a machine, because if they are accurate, it can save a great deal of time on your setups.

The first thing I did was to check each slot in turn, as far as I could, because the vice was still in position. Basically, there was no detectable runout over the whole length of the table, on all six slot sides. Looking promising.







Then I measured the width of the slots all over the place, all the same reading, 0.625". Very, very promising. 
I am really starting to be overwhelmed at the quality of this machine.







While I was at it, I checked on the table clamps, and what effect they had when tightened up. On the Z axis, when tightened the DRO reading dropped by 0.0002", Y axis gave an increase of 0.0001" and there was no change on the X. These were all checked at different positions and all gave basically the same readings. So they were duly noted down for future reference, to be double checked with a DTI. The reason it is good to know these figures is that you can allow for the movement when setting up the cut.
It might seem stupid to a lot of you, to take such a long time and do so many checks on a machine. 
Within ten days, I have this machine set up to the best of my ability, and I now know how it should behave when I start to use it in earnest. I took the opportunity to do it now, rather than make many mistakes over the comings months, and fixing it as I go along.

________________________________________________________________________

I am now happy to start using the machine. 
I will start on something soft and work my way up.
So a lump on nylon in the vice, ground up my flycutter to my favourite shape and got ready to cut. 
Again I will use this time to see how the machine performs with regards to speeds and feeds, what are the vibration levels like etc.







First cut, 0.050", spindle speed at 2k and a fast feed on the power feed. Slight vibration coming from flycutter, but final finish and size were spot on. The semi circular guard works very well with the flycutter and managed to keep most of the chips around the vice area, with a few being thrown out the back. 
Time to step it up.







An 8" long lump of brass, this is for a job, so needs to be made exact on size. 5/8" minus 0.001" width, doesn't matter about he depth.
Same cut, speed reduced to 1600, same fast feed. Mirror surface finish obtained.
The bar was then squared up all round, and brought to width, 0.624", no detectable difference end to end.
Machine was now showing what it could really do.







This is what it made, and it was made for a specific reason. To be a nice push fit into the slots on the table. Which it did perfectly.






This bar was made for doing a specific job, and that was started today.
I will hopefully be finishing the project tomorrow and it will be posted under the appropriate heading.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

My journey into the outlands is almost over.

Just had a phone call (we did away with drums and smoke signals years ago) to tell me my lathe will be delivered on the 28th of this month.

So about two weeks after that, as long as nothing major goes wrong, I will be operational again.

So look out all you with wobbly bling crowns, I will be back.


Back to tiling John


----------



## Cedge

Let me see if i have this right.... Wife won't let you paint the shop.... so you are on your knees laying tile? Yeah... that works here....LOL

Steve


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## Bogstandard

She is weakening.

My mate Tel and myself nearly had her agreeing this morning.

A few more tiles and we should have her eating out of our hands, she might even paint it for me.

Am I living in a dream world or what.

Boss Bogs.


----------



## Bogstandard

The third major part of my shop upgrade arrived at lunchtime today.

Luckily, my friend Tel was here visiting, and without him my new lathe wouldn't have made it. The delivery came on a curtainsider, and it must have been loaded by forklift from the side. The pallet was too long to be handled with the pallet truck the driver had, in the position it was sited on the wagon, so Tel took over and and had it off in ten minutes, the driver didn't have a clue. It was also listed as only weighing 200kilos, in fact it is 450kilos. Someone has been cooking the books.


So anyway, after having signed for it as 'unchecked because of packaging' (covers me if anything is found damaged as it is unpacked). The first two bits came in stout cardboard boxes weighing about 30 kilos each (about 65lbs). These boxes contained the main lathe stand, no pressed steel here, welded up out of 1/4" plate, with a plate on the top that must be at least 1/2" thick, with the top faces machined level. The left hand one is the storage cupboard and access to the emergency stop foot operating pedal linkage. The one on the right is actually showing the rear face, and this contains a very solid suds pump and tank.







Whenever you receive something like this, if possible cover yourself by taking photos of any damaged areas on the outside of the box, and at each stage of unpacking. Just in case there is damage, so you can prove that it was done prior to the final unpacking stage.
So the top was removed first. It came off fairly easily, so the box had been opened before.







Protective packing peeled back and the first look at the new bit of equipment. It was given a full dose of looking at without touching anything, no damage as far as I could see. The whole machine is covered in a protective gunk that will eventually be removed.
In the bottom of the box was a very comprehensive toolkit, in a nice plastic toolbox, of the same type as came with the mill. Lots of bubble wrapped bags in there as well, all the bolts and fittings like DRO head, plus a load of extras I had ordered. Each bag was checked against the inventory and all was found OK, except I had ordered 20 standard tool holders and only 8 in there. On checking paperwork, the have back ordered another 12 for me.







Once the loose bits were checked, time to check all the bits that were advertised to come with the lathe. 
Under the lathe, bolted to the crate was a 10" face plate, again, fixed to the bottom of the box, in bottom right hand corner was an 8" four jaw independent. QCTP was in position already, as was suds pump pipework and DRO read heads.
I also noticed that only one chuck key was supplied, but on checking it out, it fit both supplied chucks and the camlock chuck locking, so it looks like someone has been doing their homework.







The other half shows travelling and fixed steadies plus 6" 3 jaw, halogen lamp (including expensive bulb) and micrometer saddle stop (looks like a few mods needed on that, I like at least 3 stops).
Also note below the chuck on the bed, this has what is called a gap bed, where a section can be removed to allow much larger parts to be swung if needed. Not a thing to leave out permanently, as the lathe can easily twist out of shape, but OK if done occasionally for that 'special' job.







So it looks like no damage as yet, and all bits are present.
Time to unpack a bit further.







No sooner had I taken the front off, the nose on legs was in there, checking for nasties.
I was there soon after checking for damage. None at all found. So no phone calls yet to the supplier.







Now this is one of the main reasons I went for this special model. Almost everything I need is on this front panel. The two top levers with arrows give me 18 speeds, the other one gives me leadscrew fwds/rev. I also have motor fwds/rev controlled by a handle on the bottom of the three shafts. The middle one is for cross feed and the top is the standard leadscrew.
The four knobs on the bottom control the speeds to both the top shafts for screwcutting and feed.
A full set of charts are provided on the front for speeds and feeds plus metric and imperial screwcutting. A set of change gears are supplied to change the machine between the two.
One thing I don't seem to be able to adjust to is the squareness of everything. I have always used machines that have voluptuous curves and rounded corners. I will have to see if I can get used to this minimalist approach to machinery.







Another point I liked about this machine is the fact it has dual met/imp resettable scales on all controls, including the tailstock. So really it can be used as a machine for both standards, even without using the DRO.






I have never been able to get close to one of these machines before now, as they never had any in stock, and I had to pre order this one three months ago. And they still have a backlog of orders.
I think the reason is, and Chester UK admit to this. The machine is grossly over specced for the price. They reckon it should be £500 dearer, and I would agree with that. In fact I got this at a much lower price than is shown on their website. Cash talks.

A had a good look thru the test report that came with the machine and found them very encouraging, from the tailstock being only 0.0015" higher than the spindle, to the 0.001" runout at the end of a 1ft long test bar sticking out of the spindle. To me, well within acceptable tolerances. But only time and tweaking will tell.

So now it is boxed up again. My mate Tel refused to get it on his back, and carry it into my shop, so I have now to wait until my machine moving man comes to do it for me. Hopefully sometime next week.

John


----------



## CrewCab

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> My mate Tel refused to get it on his back, and carry it into my shop



Tell him 200 angry forum members are currently on their way to "have a chat" :   ........... though ......... looking at the weight I can't really blame him 



			
				Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> so I have now to wait until my machine moving man comes to do it for me. Hopefully sometime next week.




John, it will be just as long a wait for "us lot" as it will for you ............. not that that helps ;D

anyway, Bandit looks to have given it his seal of approval ;D




Good to see things are progressing, whatever happens, have fun and keep us updated ............ daily ....... OK ....... hourly 8)

CC


----------



## rake60

Nice looking machine John!

Rick


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## Bogstandard

Tel,



> Tell him 200 angry forum members are currently on their way to "have a chat"



Methinks if you knew which family from the smoke he is related to (clue : they made a film about the twins), I don't think threats would bother him. I will just say, it was nice to have him on my side at certain times a few years ago.

I was going to do a bit of 'upgrade' work while it was still in the box, but I have decided to wait until it is fully assembled but not levelled.

I want to get started, but I just have to wait like everyone else.

Rick,

I just hope I have made the right choice, I only have one go at it, because of space and cash limitations. Only time will tell.

I really wanted the long bed version of this one.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/charger_lathe.htm

40ft between centres, but the garden isn't long enough. Plus there is no nuclear power stations nearby to keep it running.


John


----------



## mklotz

> One thing I don't seem to be able to adjust to is the squareness of everything. I have always used machines that have voluptuous curves and rounded corners. I will have to see if I can get used to this minimalist approach to machinery.



You may come to appreciate some nice flat, square surfaces once you begin to make accessories which attach to the lathe. A flat tailstock top is especially nice. 

I hope that you and Gromit enjoy your new acquisition.

BTW, does your therapist know that you consider machine tools "voluptuous"?


----------



## Bogstandard

Marv,

I think we have had the discussion about 'curves' on machinery before. There is no need for therapists in the UK, we are ALL bent and twisted, so why bother.

I have already noted the flats on the tailstock and topslide, ideal for DRO read head mounting.

I have noticed one thing though, no saddle lock. That will be one of the first things to be added.

John


----------



## rake60

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> 40ft between centres, but the garden isn't long enough. Plus there is no nuclear power stations nearby to keep it running.



Well now John if you ever need a large part or two made, we at 
*Femco Machine* may be able to help you out.

This is out 2ed largest manual lathe.





Our largest CNC lathe isn't nearly and big as that.
It's Max Swing is only 36" and 160" between centers.





Then again, Tel may refuse to carry either of those in for you. 

Rick


----------



## ksouers

John,
The new machine looks great. Lots of room to work with.

Also looks like there's lots of little fiddly bits to get lined up, tuned in and persuaded to work the Bogstandard way.


----------



## Bogstandard

I will say this again, this isn't a posing post. 

I needed machines to do a definite job and a little more, I am just showing how I got around my problems and why I eventually chose them.

It took me many many months of searching to find the machines that would suit me, with my physical abilities. These are the last ones I will ever buy, so they had to be right (almost).

Even if I had a great wedge of cash, I am sure I would have still gone for the two machines I have ended up with, because they came very close to MY ideals of what was required.

It is no use rushing out and buying the first machine you see. It takes time to select the right one, get it wrong and you will be unhappy. This is why I am showing my shop build, and why I chose each machine, neither are perfect by any means, but with a few mods here and there, they CAN be made into my ideal machines.

Many years ago, when I met my mate and mentor Tel, he showed me all the controls for a Hardinge collet lathe, so that I could make some bits for the project I was working on. Now even though that was a high precision and very expensive machine, there were some things on it that I wouldn't accept if I was to buy one. So it goes to show, expensive doesn't mean perfect for what you want.

It can be very difficult for a person beginning in this hobby to get the right machine for them, and it all boils down to experience. I hoped that by showing what I look for in machinery would make their decision a little easier. Every machine has 'potential', and the lads on here have shown that you don't need big and expensive to get superb results, just a bit of learning, tweaking and modding works wonders.

Rick,

Up until a few years back, in my town, they had a foundry and machine shop that made the rollers for metal roll mills. The rolls were actually cast in the vertical position, half in and half out of the ground. But the lathes in there were something else. 4" square toolbit, the operator sat on a seat fitted to the saddle and travelled along with the cut, tweaking and adjusting as it went v-e-r-y slowly along the cut. Start the cut at the beginning of a shift and finish it off during the shift after. The mic's for measuring were slung above on a small crane. A lot of places are only playing at heavy engineering, but it seems like what you do comes very close to it.
The ones shown in the pic are tiny compared to the size they used to make.

Wouldn't it be nice to get the bar ends off a few of those rolls.

John


----------



## NickG

Looks very nice John. When I was looking for a lathe I found this http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-SIEG-Axminster-SIEG-CQ6230B-910-Metal-Turning-Lathe-570771.htm the same lathe from axminster and thought it looked a bargain, however couldn't justify spending that much money! I can't understand people that buy for example a new ML7 with nowhere near the same capability as yours at more than double the cost. I think a basic one is around £5k now, unbelievable!

Can't wait to see it set up and in action!

Nick


----------



## Bogstandard

Nick,

I had seen that lathe, but I think they haven't had it advertised long. It is basically the same as mine, except the one I went for has 18 gears and a higher top end speed. If I remember rightly, that one has a 9 gear setup. I also paid a lot less for my one than Axminster wants.

There is one thing that is annoying me slightly and is mentioned in the Axminster write up. Thread cutting, even though it can do both standards, is only perfectly set up for metric. But because of the ease the machine can be reversed, either motor or leadscrew, it is just a matter of making a retracting threading toolholder and all will be fine.

I tend not to compare machine to machine too much, as it upsets a few people. Each one to his own.

John


----------



## NickG

True, personally I'd be extremely upset if I'd bought a myford when things like this are on the market! 

I'm sure it'll do a fantastic job for you, like I said, looking forward to seeing it in action and can't wait until your projects are revealed!

Nick


----------



## Divided He ad

Glad to see that it is all getting in to shape there John. Nice looking machine ;D 

Not long now and you can relax at the helm again  

We all like to read how you set your machines up.... some of us have no clue whatsoever!! : 

Keep us posted ;D 



Ralph.


----------



## pelallito

John,
Everything is looking great. :bow: I don't want to go into my shop after seeing yours. :-[
I did a search for power hacksaws, because I liked the one you got, and could not find any. I don't think that they are imported to the US very often. Are the Chester named machines sold here under another name? 
Please continue to tell us about this project.
Regards,
Fred


----------



## Bogstandard

Fred,

Please don't go on a tool envy trip because of me. Your shop suits you, mine will suit me. If we all had the same, what would the world be like?

The mill is a standard 836 (table 8" wide by 36" long) and is available in a variety of flavours to suit your pocket in the US. You pay more cash, you get more add ons.

The lathe as far as I know is a standard, you would have to look for 12" swing (17" in gap bed) by about 36" between centres (mine is a metric machine). Chester have done a few of their own mods on the gearbox and drive belt arrangement to enable lower and faster speeds (from 65 to 1800 on Chester compared to 75 to 1400 on standard), plus double the amount of gear steps, from 9 on a standard machine to 18 on the Chester version. 

In my next post I will be giving a run down on my findings and shortcomings in the last 24 hours on this new machine.

John


----------



## Bogstandard

While the weather has been fine, I have taken the opportunity today to give the machine a good looking over.

My findings are what I consider my own personal views, and no way should they be taken as gospel. Different people have different expectations.

Machine build quality. IMHO this machine has definitely been made in China in a high production regime. The quality of finish on this machine is nowhere near the very high standards that I found on my new mill.

It is a machine that will do the job well, all running fits seem to be spot on and slideways are a nice ground finish. Where it is really let down is in the Chinese method of assembly. Normally the machine parts would be machined, masked and painted, then assembled. On this one, that has been done in places, in most others it has been assembled into a subassembly then painted, even all the cap screw bolt heads. Some parts, such as the gearbox operating knobs and handles have paint overspray on them. This isn't a big deal, as it can soon be cleaned off, but a little more care and the machine would look a 100% better.

I also noticed where Chester UK had done their upgrades in their own factory in China. Paint chips and dirty fingermarks on the areas where the mods had been done.
I think this machine was assembled at speed to clear a backlog, maybe later machines will have a little more care taken.

Now onto the bits that came with the machine, this time I am concentrating on the chucks and faceplate.

All nose fittings on this machine go onto a D1-4 camlock mount. A small industry standard that has proven itself over many years of use. So no problems with chucks unscrewing or falling off, so the machine can safely be used in fwds and reverse.
It has a 5MT 'up the spout' but a 5 to 3 MT converter is supplied to use standard sized tooling. By going this large, 38mm (1.5") spindle bore, large bits of bar can be fed thru the spindle, this is a definite plus point on my part.


This is the first bit that will fit, a well made and solid faceplate, 10" diameter. Only one problem, my Keats angle plate won't fit the slots in it. So this will be one of the first things to be machined up. I will drill sets of holes in strategic places. Plus, before first use, the faceplate will be faced off on the lathe and marked so that it goes into the same position each time. Hopefully this will save me having to skim up each time.







Here is the four jaw independent. 8" diameter and a monster of a chuck. It is nearly 4" thick, including backplate, but not the jaws. A definite hernia producer. I think I will be investing in a lighter weight, slightly smaller one.







Now the workhorse of most peoples lathes, the 3 jaw self centering.
A standard 6" supplied with inside and outside jaws. As usual, with all my self centering chucks, I buy sets of soft jaws. In this case, as the photo shows, they are just the basic variety. To allow me to machine much smaller parts, I will machine 60 degree angles to allow them to come much closer into the centre of the chuck, just like normal jaws.






I will also be fitting a 5" 5c collet chuck and a 6" 4 jaw self centering, again with soft jaws. For precision reasons, the collet chuck is ready to fit straight on, not on a backplate, but machined into the chuck back as a unit. The four jaw will have to wait as I need the machine running to machine and fit the backplate.

I had to contact the suppliers today as the 'Chinglish' manual supplied was a bit vague on what lubrication to use. It just said lubricate with 'machine oil', which means absolutely nothing. It turns out for the three gearboxes (top, bottom and carriage), use a 32 grade hydraulic oil, and for bedways and all sliding surfaces, standard 68 grade slideway oil, luckily I have both in stock in large quantities, I also have the recommended 'anti throw grease' for use on the very small gear train quadrant. A few hours running and an oil change will be carried out, followed by another one a few hours later. That should remove any 'nasties' that are lurking in there. Because this machine is classed as a light industrial, they recommend oil changes on a very regular shift basis. I will carry them out as and when I feel it needs it.

I will keep plodding around and letting you know as I come across anything, as it seems a few are interested in the write up.

John


----------



## chuck foster

congrats on all the new tools 8) and john...........anything you write about is of great interest to myself and i would dare say just about everyone else that calls this place "home". keep the post com'in and i for one can't wait to see your first project with all this new tooling ;D

chuck


----------



## pelallito

John,
It isn't as much tool envy(although there is a little bit of that), as admiring the way it is coming together and getting organized. I need to go into my shop and sit there and see how I can clean it up and organize it. 
Thanks again,
Fred


----------



## Bogstandard

Fred,

Over the years, I have become very lazy. So anything that reduces workload scores big smartie points with me. Nothing could be simpler, put the bits used on the machine by the machine. If it is used on two machines, put it between the two.

I am taking this opportunity to have a clear out, and get rid of items I have either never used, or have been superceded by later equipment. Visitors usually go away with a lot more than they expected.

When the going gets tough, my workshop usually ends up like a bombsite, bits and pieces and tools everywhere, but because everything has a place, it is easy to get back to normal. Put tools back from whence they came, recycle materials, sweep and clean up, done. Then start the mayhem all over again. Problems always arise if you don't do the highlighted bits between jobs.

John


----------



## pelallito

Fred,

Over the years, I have become very lazy. So anything that reduces workload scores big smartie points with me. Nothing could be simpler, put the bits used on the machine by the machine. If it is used on two machines, put it between the two.
I am doing some of that. At first it did not feel right, leaving tools close to the machines rather than putting them away in the tool boxes.  

I am taking this opportunity to have a clear out, and get rid of items I have either never used, or have been superceded by later equipment. Visitors usually go away with a lot more than they expected.

I need to do that. I am a collector (pack rat) of all sorts of stuff.

When the going gets tough, my workshop usually ends up like a bombsite, bits and pieces and tools everywhere, but because everything has a place, it is easy to get back to normal. Put tools back from whence they came, recycle materials, sweep and clean up, done. Then start the mayhem all over again. Problems always arise if you don't do the highlighted bits between jobs.

The highlighted bits is where I get into trouble. Sometimes family obligations pull me out of the shop in the middle of something and it takes me a few hours/days to get back in there and complete what I was working on.  

Thanks for the advice and help. I appreciate it very much, but I did not mean to hijack your thread.
Regards,
Fred


----------



## Bogstandard

Got a few more shots of the lathe bits while it is still in its box. Within the next couple of days, it will be moved onto its stand in the shop, then I can get to work on it.

I mentioned in an earlier post that some toolholders were missing and were on back order. Well they turned up this morning, so the order is now completed in full.







This is the suds tank that sits inside one of the stand cabinets. Welded up out of 1/8" steel plate with internal baffles and micro filters in the baffles, so no big bits should get to the centrifugal pump, plus there is a definite settlement area for sludge to collect. It looks about 1 gallon capacity. All in all, a very robust and well thought out unit.







This is the DRO unit that came with the lathe and is the standard high quality unit that Chester uses, unless those with deep pockets specify the fabulous Newall system. This one is for measuring saddle and crosslide travel. I will also be fitting an identical one that came off my mill, that will measure compound slide and tailstock.







A standard sort of Chinese tailstock, it has imp/met resettable scales on the handle, and the quill is marked up in imp/met as well. It has a camlock to lock the tailstock to the bed and the usual quill lock as well. Basic adjustment is provided for taper turning, and a couple of lube points on the top. I gave the spindle a real good shake, and no noticeable slop was encountered. 
One thing I definitely don't like, it has no internal lock for an MT tang. This can cause problems when drilling large holes as the drill can turn in the taper. Also, you tend to lose a bit of working stroke on the ram, as it has to be extended before the length of the tang is taken account of. There is a quick cure, cut the tang off, but that then negates its use in equipment with a tang locking feature. A real minus point, and an area I just might have to make a fix for.







A large permanently engaged threading dial is fitted, and marked up slightly differently to the norm, but still very useable once I get used to it. This is different to the one I was shown pictures of, which had a very weird scaling setup, So it looks like someone has come to their senses, and fitting one that could easily be used.







The halogen lamp looks to be a good quality unit, with plenty of adjustment. It is mains fed to the head, then a transformer takes over and converts it into 12volts. A switch on the actual head rather than on the machine makes it easy to use.







Now to the saddle. I stated in an earlier post that it didn't have a saddle lock, well after a bit of searching, I found the cap screw that controls it, this is a prime candidate for putting a handle on, as I use the saddle lock a lot.
I have also shown a thing I mentioned before, paint overspray. A bit of care and attention could have prevented it.
All dovetails on the machine use tapered gibs, adjusted by a screw at either end, I really like this type of adjustment as you tend not to get tight spots in the slide action, as can happen with badly adjusted sidescrewed gibs.
As you can see, it has a half nut select handle and the top leadscrew is housed inside a protective spring casing to keep swarf off the leadscrew.
The middle handle controls the power to the crosslide, both fwds/rev. This gets its power from a dedicated power shaft, the middle one of the three.
The big red knob operates the bottom shaft and gives motor fwds/rev and off in the middle. 
The apron has its own gearbox running in an oilbath.







This is the D1-4 chuck mount. I gives the chuck very accurate alignment onto a tapered spigot using a positive locking system, but like all chuck fixing, the area has to be kept scrupulously clean to avoid any misalignment. There is one slightly smaller than this, a D1-3, but a lot that are much larger. It is a standard for chuck fixing on larger lathes in the engineering community.







The fixed steady is a well made cast unit with individual arm friction screws and a screwed feed to the arms, very similar to the feed on a tailstock. The arms look to be PB or brass tipped. Also supplied is a travelling steady made to the same standard as this one.







The next shot shows the setup charts for the leadscrew and power shaft rates.







Setup chart for thread cutting.







Drop in numbers for the threading dial for each pitch of screw thread. I have yet to study them closely as there seems to be a few blank spaces that need to be understood.






I am a bit annoyed because these charts are not duplicated in the machine manual, so I will have to take some decent pics and get them printed and laminated, so the charts can be scrutinised when working at my bench.

So that's it basically, the next bits will be when I get to put a few mods on it when I get the machine inside the shop.
Then the fun really starts.

John


----------



## BobWarfield

Very nice looking lathe, I can see why you chose that one. Very solid, and looks to have some nice features.

Pity about that nasty yellow color. I'd have been happier if it were all cream colored. Fixes the overspray problem too.

I may have missed, but what's the spindle bore on that lathe? 

Cheers,

BW


----------



## Bogstandard

Bob,

Spindle bore is 1.5".

There is nothing on the lathe up to this time that can't be put right. I have even had a look at the tailstock a few minutes ago, and it looks like the MT tang problem will be a simple mod.

John


----------



## Divided He ad

Well you haven't even commissioned your lathe yet John and I might need to ask you to chuck up a part for me!!! ;D 


I've been sitting here this evening designing a few different bits, A small fun machining project, got that covered.
A display project.... not required just yet (got to build all the engines first!!!) 

Then a machining mod.... Now here's where I need much larger capacity than my lathe....I don't fancy trying to make a 12" pulley on my 9x20!  

No rush mind, it's probably the last part I'll need .... that gives it about 12months the speed I work at!!

I'll talk to you about it before I ever make the first part anyway.... Then you'll probably tell me that I'm crazy.... and I'll make it anyway :big: 



I do like all those tooling bits... ENVY! ;D .... I do have the same type lamp however  



Ralph.


----------



## mklotz

> There is nothing on the lathe up to this time that can't be put right. I have even had a look at the tailstock a few minutes ago, and it looks like the MT tang problem will be a simple mod.



Couple of setscrews or pins through the TS spindle? I'll look forward to hearing of your solution since I need to do this on mine one of these days. I haven't yet done it because I haven't puzzled out a way to remove the pins should the tang twist and bend them.

I'm intrigued by the threading dial. I believe you said the leadscrew is metric yet the dial has the traditional eight divisions. On the indicator table, what does the "T" column (0,14,15,16) refer to?

It's also curious that it can't be disengaged from the leadscrew. I'm wondering if that is a requirement so that it can be used for both Imperial and metric threading.

I'm hoping that, once you sort it all out, you'll write one of your expert treatises on how the threading dial functions. For me it's mainly a matter of curiosity but for current and future readers who have the same or similar lathes, an expert explanation of this often misunderstood mechanism would be very valuable.


----------



## Bogstandard

Ralph,

No problems making your little bit, as long as you do a job for me, make me a 12" diameter ball for a little job I have in mind. :big: :big: :big:


Marv,

I am a little baffled by the screwcutting dial myself, and as far as I know, for me to cut imperial it isn't required, as it needs the permanently engaged half nuts technique coupled with machine reversal. That is why I am looking for plans for a retracting toolpost. All numbers for metric cutting are used, as it shows as such on the third threading chart. I have yet to find out what the 0, 14, 15 & 16 mean.
I tried to disengage the screwcutting dial but it was locked solid. Normally they just swing away. It didn't explore any further because I have seen larger machines with permanently coupled dials. Maybe there is something hidden, like I found with the saddle lock, that will release it. Once I get it out of the box, maybe then it will start to reveal it's secrets a little more. Maybe it has to be slid sideways to disengage, I will give it another dose of looking at tomorrow if I can find the time.

I took the ram out of the tailstock to have a look at it, and it has a replaceable threaded bush in the end, looks like bronze. I came up with two ideas straight away (see sketch), but both will require slight modification to the leadscrew length to have the MT self ejecting. Again, once I can get it in the shop and do an accurate measurement, things might become a little more difficult than envisioned.

If I can sort out the threading mysteries, I will definitely give you an update. If I can't, Chester UK will be getting a pupil for the day, for them to explain it to me.
The manual contains absolutely nothing about it.

John


----------



## rake60

I'm very anxious to see an experienced operators review of this lathes 
performance. I've been looking at them ever since Seig first announced 
their upper end *"White and Blue"* line of machines.

It's not yet available painted Grizzly green but as soon as it is, I'll be driving
to Muncy, PA to play with one! 

It sure looks great from here!

Rick


----------



## ksouers

Rick,
These guys are in your neck of the woods.

http://precisionmatthews.com/index.html

And it looks like they carry this machine.

http://precisionmatthews.com/PM1236Lathe.html


----------



## rake60

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Rick,
> These guys are in your neck of the woods.
> 
> http://precisionmatthews.com/index.html
> 
> And it looks like they carry this machine.
> 
> http://precisionmatthews.com/PM1236Lathe.html



Damn!
That's only a couple hours away!

You know it's been some time since I took the wife to Pittsburgh for a shopping trip.
All of the sudden I'm feeling guilty about that! 

Rick


----------



## ksouers

You can thank TaxPhd (Scott).

He raised a question about the Precision Matthews machine. I noticed it was the same as Bogs, so I pointed him over here. Thought you might want to know about it.


Sorry, John. Didn't intend to hijack.


----------



## Bogstandard

Rick,

I seems these machines come in all different flavours, and the one I have purchased is one designed for us 'mad hatters' who tend to use more metric than imperial.

I think, from the chuck mounting to tailstock they should all be basically the same, except for a few mods done by the suppliers.

Where the main changes occur is in the gearbox heads. As far as I can make out, there are three different versions, then mine that has been modified on the input side to give that little extra.

Mine is geared (excuse the pun) towards a combination of mainly metric with imperial as a side order, whereas in the US I would suspect it to be the other way around.

This is my first far eastern lathe I have ever bought, and going from a US made Atlas with more documentation than you could read in a lifetime, to one that comes with a manual that has about six lines on screwcutting, and all it tells you is look at the charts on the machine. It is like going from a bed of roses, to up to your neck in a pile of s**t.

I am in no way saying the machine is bad, in fact, except for their little cosmetic problems and a few niggles (tailstock tang lock), it looks to me to be a very well made, hopefully accurate, and a robust machine. Which once I have got used to it's little foibles, I will come to love just like my old lathe.

Where they fail is total and utter non information in the manual, and for what use it is, it may as well be hanging up in the outhouse, for when you run out of toilet paper.

The only problem with that is the paper is the type that will spread it around, rather than wipe it off. You just can't win, they get you all ways.

I want to know how to cut weird and multistart threads. The information must be out there somewhere, or else I am in for a rather long and laborious learning curve.

There should be a lot in this post that can help people understand what this type of lathe is about, that is why I am showing it, warts and all.

If you can live with the warts, great. If not, look for something that has no imperfections (but expect your pocket to suffer). By taking on the warts, I hope to have a machine that will suit myself with regards to what it can do in the size department.

I have said this before and repeat it again, I will be using this machine for a certain type of work, model engine making is an added bonus. This machine cost just under $4000, but that was with a lot of extras added, like 18 spindle speeds and a good quality DRO fitted. To get it to where I can use it for doing the work that is intended for it, the same amount has been spent on tooling (the toolholders came to nearly $500). That puts this lathe about equal in price with the mill I have just bought. These machines fit my shop, home grown expensive ones wouldn't.

To put it bluntly, there are a lot of different models of this lathe out there, if you can live without a few of the bells and whistles, they can be obtained for very reasonable prices.

John


----------



## Stan

John: I have an 8" 4 jaw threaded chuck that is also a hernia generator but with your mount there is a simple solution.
Mount a davit at the back of the lathe with a turnbuckle hanging down. Swing it over the chuck, screw the turnbuckle into a tapped hole in the chuck, take the weight with the turnbuckle, unlock the chuck and swing it out of the way. Just leave it hanging on the davit until needed and then reverse the procedure.


----------



## applescotty

John,

I, like others, have really been enjoying this thread. I have found it extremely interesting to see what tool choices you've made, what changes you're making, etc. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you're outfitting your shop for a particular purpose. Have you elaborated on this purpose in another post? I'm not wanting to pry, and certainly don't feel compelled to say more than you wish to. I'm just curious (as I'm sure others are, too).

Scott


----------



## Bogstandard

Stan,

Your idea of the davit is already being pursued by my mentor, I am leaving it up to him to get it all organised. Many thanks for the suggestion anyway. It is always nice when someone does their best to help.

Scott, 

It is being set up for doing some rework and prototyping jobs for an old company I used to work for.

John


----------



## Divided He ad

A 12" ball ehh?! .... Not wanting to point out the obvious but, if I could make that John I would be able to make the pulley!!!  ;D 


What purpose could you have for such a sphere? .... you planning on some demolition?!! 


I'll explain all the covert plans at the weekend.... Your bound to call me mad!!  




Ralph.


----------



## Bogstandard

Yet another bit to add to this epic saga.

My moving man drove from the other side of the country yesterday afternoon and got my lathe into the shop. By the way his hoist flexed, there was no way Tel could have carried it in on his back. Kevin the man reckoned on about 350kg (just over 700lbs). So even with Tel on the heavy end, the wife on the other, they still would have struggled, made me sweat just thinking about it.

Anyway, here it is, in the centre of the shop, so that I can get all around it to do any assembly that is required.
A thin layer of silicone sealant was put between the tray and bases and then between the lathe and tray. This will stop any stray suds getting into the cabinets underneath.
By the time I took this photo I had already connected up the machine stop/footbrake and connected and fitted most of the electrics. By this time I was just wiring in the suds pump.








This is the business end, a 240volt (single phase) 2HP motor connected to the main gearbox by twin belts. 
It is this area I am really disappointed with. To swap the belts over to give another speed range entails undoing the motor bolts to slacken the belts to allow the changeover. This shouldn't matter to most buyers of this type of clone as the twin pulley, as far as I know, is one of Chesters own mods.
I can see a perfect place between the belts and the lower mounting stud for the cover, to be utilised for a belt tensioner quadrant, to save having to slacken the motor off.
To counteract the disappointment about the belts, I noticed when I was poking about, the main gearbox is a separate unit, and it has it's own horizontal jacking screws. That means, if I have a sideways taper after it is all set up, that will be able to be adjusted it out with a bit of fine tweaking.







This shot shows the footbrake linkage coming up to a shutoff microswitch and a fair sized pair of brake shoes mounted into the back of the drive pulley that goes to the back of the main gearbox.
You can't help but notice the gaping hole thru the spindle, a very handy 1.5". It is also threaded into the end, but I don't know what for, maybe a collet closer.
Below the spindle is a very robust gear quadrant, fitted with all steel, well made gears. These are for changing over from metric to imperial and the ratios on the lead screw.







Away from the machine tour now. This is the first mod I will be doing to the machine. Fitting a second double DRO.
So I have got the topslide off and trying the read head for fit.
You might say that it is a little too long for the slide. Before I ordered the DRO heads I had already noticed I might run into problems getting things into the right position. Chester didn't have one of these lathe in, so when I was in their showroom, I had a look at similar type lathes and measured the topslides. This proved to be the right thing to do, because if I had ordered the shorter head I would have been in major trouble getting it to fit where I wanted it.
If you notice the jib lock screw in the side, and the nut for holding the topslide down. This meant the actual read head couldn't be mounted centrally, but at the rear. If I had bought the shorter one, I would have run out of read area on the scale before the topslide had reached its limits.
The aluminium bracket for the scale will have new slots machined into it, and the read head will have a purpose made ali mounting block to get it into the right position.
It really does pay to plan well ahead.






Now for a little bit for Marv.

If you remember, I said that the screw thread gauge was mounted solid. Well on closer inspection (I couldn't get to it properly to see before) it does pivot out. I removed it so that I could see a little bit of the totally enclosed leadscrew. After measuring it, contrary to what the manual said, it has an 8TPI leadscrew. So that makes it even more confusing when cutting threads. Do you believe the charts or not? I suppose the only way to do it, is to try cutting a few.

Now back again.

This post has now been suspended awaiting confirmation from Chester UK about a question asked of them.

Please do not ask why.

Sorry, but normal service will resume as soon as possible.


John


----------



## mklotz

If you don't mount a collet closer on the aft end of the spindle, you can do what I did with the threads there. Make a mini faceplate to go on there and fit it with three adjustable fingers to (roughly) center long stock and prevent it from whipping and clanging at low speeds.

An 8 tpi leadscrew certainly explains the eight marks on the threading dial. But now I'm even more confused. How can one use that dial when threading metric? The plate on the front of the lathe [shown in one of your previous photos] seems to indicate it can be done, but I surely don't understand how. If they've puzzled out how to do that, there will be many folks, myself included, anxious to know the procedure.

We anxiously await further revelations.


----------



## Bogstandard

That is a very cunning idea Marv, I just might make one.
Because this lathe is going to within 10" of the far wall, I will be cutting a hole thru the wall, to take long bar into my back room. One of the requirements for my jobs.

Now you see why I am confused as well Marv. But all answers should be here soon.

John


----------



## John S

According to the metric chart it's driven by a 127 gear wheel.
That means it's an imperial lathe hence the 8 tpi screw and when in metric mode you have to leave the half nuts engaged.

I have an all metric TOS and it's a genuine all metric and on this one you have to run the 127 to get imperial and leave the 1/2 nuts in.

.


----------



## crankshafter

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Couple of setscrews or pins through the TS spindle? I'll look forward to hearing of your solution since I need to do this on mine one of these days. I haven't yet done it because I haven't puzzled out a way to remove the pins should the tang twist and bend them.
> 
> I'm intrigued by the threading dial. I believe you said the leadscrew is metric yet the dial has the traditional eight divisions. On the indicator table, what does the "T" column (0,14,15,16) refer to?
> 
> It's also curious that it can't be disengaged from the leadscrew. I'm wondering if that is a requirement so that it can be used for both Imperial and metric threading.
> 
> I'm hoping that, once you sort it all out, you'll write one of your expert treatises on how the threading dial functions. For me it's mainly a matter of curiosity but for current and future readers who have the same or similar lathes, an expert explanation of this often misunderstood mechanism would be very valuable.


Marv.

I have the same lathe and I can tell you that the 0,14,15,16 on the indicator table refers to what size of gear you have to put on the threading dial.
CS


----------



## mklotz

I suspect that John Stevenson has nailed it. It's really an Imperial lathe that has the necessary transposition gears to turn metric threads. This despite what Bogs said earlier to the effect that it's a metric lathe that can turn Imperial.

But John S's remark about leaving the half-nuts engaged is at odds with the chart for using the threading dial when cutting metric threads. This is further bolstered by Crankshaft's remark,



> I have the same lathe and I can tell you that the 0,14,15,16 on the indicator table refers to what size of gear you have to put on the threading dial.



Bogs, have you looked through the bits that came with the lathe and found any small gears that look like they may fit the threading dial?


----------



## Bogstandard

Gents,

This little bit we have been discussing has really started to bring the problems I am encountering to the fore.

As I said, half a dozen lines in the manual basically said, to cut screwthreads, refer to the charts on the machine. No other explanations of what does what was given. The charts are your only reference. 

One part of the jigsaw has kindly been supplied by crankshafter, but as Marv said, this raises further questions. 

Can metric threads be cut on this machine by dropping in on the right index mark?
What is done about Imperial threads? No threading charts.

I have only had this machine into a position where I can see everything for a day. So until I can get to play with it, a few questions might have to remain unanswered.

Chester have said that they have sold a lot of these machines. Well it seems that a lot minus 1 don't cut screwthreads.

I have a lot of issues with Chester over this machine, and I have asked them to explain. Hence the stop on the lathe at this moment.

Damn, I thought the little gears were all sent by mistake, and was designing an engine around them.



> This despite what Bogs said earlier to the effect that it's a metric lathe that can turn Imperial



Because I didn't have physical access at the time, I could only go by the information supplied in the terrible manual. That info changed when I took the indicator off.

John


----------



## John S

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Gents,
> 
> 
> What is done about Imperial threads? No threading charts.
> 
> 
> John



?? Not sure what you mean by this, there is a chart under the metric one that presumably links to the knobs on the gearbox.

.


----------



## Bogstandard

John,

I fully understand where you are coming from, the charts are there, but no info on how to use the given info.

The metric drop in chart is now sorted, since I now know that you have to change the gears on the drop in dial.

There are imperial charts supplied, but no mention of what gear to use on the dial or what drop in numbers, or as I mentioned before, do you keep the half nuts engaged to cut imperial. Which seems a bit weird now that I have found it has an imperial leadscrew.

If all this info was supplied at the beginning in the manual, these problems wouldn't have arisen.

This info will have to wait for a while now, as this machine is being swapped out by Chester UK because of some of my unmentionable findings. When, I don't know, that is up to the supplier.

John


----------



## Twinsquirrel

Sorry to hear that you are having issues there John, I hope that Chester have another machine in the UK to swap out, I'm sure that they will look after you. On the bright side you have found the "unmentionable" problems early on, it would have been much worse if you had fully commissioned the machine only to find a show stopping issue.

I'm sure it wont make you feel any better but my speed controller board went up in a puff of smoke on my mini lathe yesterday but a quick call to the supplier and he says he will pop one in the post today. It certainly seems that with all my dealings with suppliers in this hobby everyone they all have a great attitude and bend over backwards to help.

David


----------



## Bogstandard

David,

They do have a replacement machine for me, they have just phoned requiring to know what will be required to do the swap over.

I have no complaints at all with Chester, they are doing a great job to sort the problems out.

It does pay to go over new machinery with a very fine toothed comb as I have done. I could have just wacked it in, levelled it and started to use it, then at a later date things would have gone pear shaped. Doing it my long winded way gets the problems sorted (and proveable) before it gets out of hand.

I suspect someone on the Chinese side will get a real good a**e kicking over it.

John


----------



## mklotz

> If all this info was supplied at the beginning in the manual, these problems wouldn't have arisen.



I suspect that these importers of Asian machine tools could halve their phone bills and support staff if they paid some literate hobbyist a few dollars/pounds to write a concordance for their woefully inadequate manuals.


----------



## John S

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I suspect that these importers of Asian machine tools could halve their phone bills and support staff if they paid some literate hobbyist a few dollars/pounds to write a concordance for their woefully inadequate manuals.



Yes I fully agree with you. That's why the Sieg's KX CNC mill manual was written in the UK and support is also from the UK.

.


----------



## Bogstandard

Marv,

I downloaded a couple of machine manuals from Grizzly, not for this exact machine, but a similar clone. 
The manuals were 1000% better, but a lot of the required information is still missing.

If I can get all the required and correct info together, I just might knock up a manual and wave it under Chester's nose.

My relations with them has been getting strained of late, because I am asking questions and making statements that they don't like on their own website. But it has to be asked and said.

http://www.atfreeforum.com/chesteruk/viewtopic.php?t=290&mforum=chesteruk

A lot of harumphing and chuffing and flapping of wings going on in the background.

They don't seem to like people throwing spanners into their works.


John


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## CrewCab

Sorry to hear things are not quite going to plan John, ....... dam shame after the excellent start with the mill as well ??? ............. good luck mate, hope you get it sorted soon.

I'm on the Chester forum as well, and as you know it's pretty quiet ...........you'll probably get a quicker response by driving down there 

CC


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## mklotz

> Please bare (sic) with us as you have a very nice machine in the Crusader, don't be put off by a bad manual



I love that. Typical managerial codswollop. What exactly should you be put off by? I'm afraid I wouldn't be nearly as polite as you, Bogs, with this demonstrably illiterate dingbat.


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## Bogstandard

I have to remain very neutral and a bit restrained at the moment Marv. Things that have come to light since making the posting about screw threading.

They can't wait to get this machine out of my hands, just in case my further examinations reveal more issues. I have photos that I have taken, that if made generally available, would very seriously damage their reputation, and is a thing I don't want to do, because I have had many good dealings with them over the years.

I am waiting on them now, to see what sort of package they can come up with to keep me happy, and less nosey.

John


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## Twinsquirrel

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> I have to remain very neutral and a bit restrained at the moment Marv. Things that have come to light since making the posting about screw threading.
> 
> They can't wait to get this machine out of my hands, just in case my further examinations reveal more issues. I have photos that I have taken, that if made generally available, would very seriously damage their reputation, and is a thing I don't want to do, because I have had many good dealings with them over the years.
> 
> I am waiting on them now, to see what sort of package they can come up with to keep me happy, and less nosey.
> 
> John



You haven't found some illegal immigrants in the suds tank have you John?  :big:

David


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## Bogstandard

Dave,

No, but when I took the lid off the box, it definitely had signs that people and yaks had been living in there.

John


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## Bogstandard

Just to give Marv a bit of indigestion, I have a bit more info on the threading bit.

When I first measured the leadscrew (2" visible down the bottom of a long tunnel) it contradicted what the manual and what I said initially.

8 TPI and a 3mm pitch look very close when measured at a distance, but now that I have full access to the leadscrew (being nosey again), it is DEFINITELY METRIC 3MM PITCH.

With information gained over the last few days, I have eventually figured out how to cut metric, and hopefully imperial threads.

Now just one little poser for all you wizzkids on threading.

On this machine, I will have to carry out imperial threading (and some metric ones)using the permanently engaged half nuts method. No problems with that, I have done it too many times before.

Because I have never had to do it before (I have always had the use of a threading dial, which makes it easy), has anyone any idea on how to cut multistart threads whilst using permanently engaged half nuts? Or isn't it possible?

John


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## John S

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Now just one little poser for all you wizzkids on threading.
> 
> On this machine, I will have to carry out imperial threading (and some metric ones)using the permanently engaged half nuts method. No problems with that, I have done it too many times before.
> 
> Because I have never had to do it before (I have always had the use of a threading dial, which makes it easy), has anyone any idea on how to cut multistart threads whilst using permanently engaged half nuts? Or isn't it possible?
> 
> John



Say you want to do a 3mm two start, set the pitch for 6mm and cut one thread to 3mm specs [ width, depth etc ]
The advance the top slide 3mm and cut the second thread. This assumes top slide is parallel to work.
If you work with the top slide offset to use as a 29 degree infeed then this won't apply unless you do some trig.

In this case another way is to put a 3mm spacer behind the tool and remove it for the second pass pushing the tool 3mm further in the holder.

Standard way is to disengage the drive train, turn round 1/2 a turn and remesh but looking at your pics it doesn't look like you have access to the spindle drive gear, only a driver off it so that method may not work.

John S.


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## Bogstandard

John,

This is one of my problems, being an old fart, I have only ever owned lathes that have full access to the gear trains, then I could fiddle about with them and get whatever I wanted. Bit of paper and a pencil, et voila, all worked out.

Your method strikes a light somewhere in my single brain cell, so it might be a method to be explored.

We will have to get all this threading stuff into one package on the site, for general reference, because I am sure there are a lot of people out there will need this info sometime in the future.

Thanks

John


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## mklotz

I keep the compound parallel to the bed and seldom swing it to 29.5 for the small threads I turn. Thus John's technique is what I almost always use for multi-starts.

And yes, Bogs, we do need to get this information organized for future members once you've got it all worked out. I can't believe that leadscrew is back to being metric again. Now I'm even more confused about the eight marks on the threading dial.


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## Bogstandard

Yes Marv, definite 3mm thread AND 8 positions.

BUT

This machine is being swapped out, and I don't know what the new one will have in it, as the manual says 8TPI/3MM so it could be either. Only time will tell.

Bogs


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## mklotz

I surely hope that this isn't a case of the Chinese thinking that 3 mm (0.118") and 0.125" are "close enough" to call them "equal".


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## John S

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I keep the compound parallel to the bed and seldom swing it to 29.5 for the small threads I turn. Thus John's technique is what I almost always use for multi-starts.
> 
> And yes, Bogs, we do need to get this information organized for future members once you've got it all worked out. I can't believe that leadscrew is back to being metric again. Now I'm even more confused about the eight marks on the threading dial.



Marv,
I think I've cracked it.
they are imperial marks with metric spaces . 

.


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## steamer

Hi John,

I suspect you were half kinding and being sarcastic but....

To cut a double without opening the half nut is possible.

You will need to index the work 180 degrees. This can be done by:

A  
Making an indexing faceplate with multiple accurately located driver dog slots.

B
take a piece of stock and mount in a 4 jaw. Turn a 60 center on the end of the stock. mount the work between centers.  Drive the dog by jaw 1 for the first thread and jaw 3 for the second thread.  Watch your lash and a piece of leather shoe lace is a good thing to keep the dog in contact with the chuck jaw at all time!

I do hope that solution C presents itself....in the form of a replacement machine with an imperial leadscrew!

Best of Luck,

Dave


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## kvom

We were discussing multi-start threads in shop class last week, and the method of driving the dog with opposite jaws was the "recommended" way of doing a 2-start thread. Of course you can also use a 3-jaw chuck to drive a 3-start thread.

What was missing for me was WHY you need multi-start threads. The explanation was that it allows the nut to travel further on each revolution with a smaller thread depth. So if you need a 4 TPI thread but cut double, the individual threads will have the depth of an 8 TPI form, and hence the screw will be stronger. Thought I would post this in case any other newbies were wondering the same thing.


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## Bernd

Steamer you beat me to the punch with the index plate. IIRC one of the Bedside Readers has a setup written up on that. I'm going to have to check that out.

Bog's

You interested in this method. I could send you the info if and when I find it?

Bernd


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## steamer

Please no punching, Im an Engineer not a fighter ;D


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## steamer

Here is A referance though I have seen this before in Colvin's books.







This is from " Machine Shop Methods" by Lorus J Milne

Reprinted by Lindsay Publications. Great book!

Dave

PS it will print out readable if you save it as a photo


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## Bogstandard

I will take any information and experiences that is going on the subject, on the understanding that it can be read and understood by a total beginner. I don't have the time to read everything and convert it into understandable newbie language, so if it can be pulled and inserted as a going concern it is a lot better.

With regards to the chuck jaw and driveplate methods, they are perfectly acceptable, above a certain size. You have to remember we are usually working with bits that are usually 1/4" or finer, and as such, usually need to be supported in a chuck or collet.

I really do appreciate all this information, and hopefully, one day it can be turned into a masterclass on easily understood threading, where everyone can add their little bits of info and experiences. But at the moment I am rather tied down with this damned hunk of metal, to get stuck into a large project such as I have mentioned.

I now know that I can turn threads of a sorts on this lathe. I now need to get back to the major issues with it, and get me up and running, so I can get the shop finished (it has been at a standstill for nearly a week) and some engines made.

So I will bypass on the lathe for the moment, and carry on with a few bits that can be done without the lathe in position.

BTW, the tiling and grovelling didn't work, NO PAINT (as yet), a very, very hard nosed woman my missus. She would make a great 'Godfather', offers you can't refuse - or else.

Bogs


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## Bogstandard

Lathe byepassed and getting on with the job in hand.

One of the major bits in the shop, the blinging machine.
I bought this 8" grinder, brand new and cheap off eblay, and stripped off all the crappy bits to what is really needed, a motor with a spindle either side.
A couple of pigtails, et voila, 8" of pure bling power.
I just so happened to have some real nice quality conveyor belting in my little shop of horrors, so a chunk was cut off and hung behind the machine as shown. It was mounted a little bit away from the wall and a bend in the bottom forms a catch tray.
I am hoping that if I lose a bit because of having to let go, it will hit the 'soft wall', cause no damage to the part, and fall into the catch tray. It might work, it might not, but it will sure as hell keep all the crap off the non painted walls, and it is wipe clean.







Here is a shot taken from over the now rejected lathe. 
When I eventually get a lathe installed, the pigtails will be shortened slightly.
I also have to cut a small hole thru the catch channel to allow the mains cable to be routed into a safer position.






I can't wait to get my grubby little digits going on this bit of kit. 
Watch out all you stand in 'Blingmeisters', Sir Boglet the Bling will be back, with a vengeance. No prisoners taken.

Bogs


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## steamer

Hi Bog,

Had me thinking about this during my drive in to work.

If I had to cut a double thread, in the chuck, without releasing the half nut, I would turn the compound over to parallel with the lathe bed, zero the dial on the compound and make sure all the lash was taken up in the compound feedscrew by turning it to advance toward the lathe chuck. Now lock the compound slide gibs so it won't move. I would chuck up a piece of stock, prep it for threading, and then make my first thread. Back the tool out using the cross slide. I would be threading by the plunge method or cutting on both sides of the tool . I wouldn't want to do this with a coarse thread, but with the threads found on the average ME project, this should not be a problem

Now release the lock on the compound and advance the compound a distance equal to the pitch of the thread toward the headstock ( not the lead of the thread mind you, the pitch of the thread which is for a two start equal to one half the lead). 

Now back up the carriage, advance the cross slide and cut the second thread by the plunge method. You should be 180 degrees out of phase from the first thread.

Example:
A 1/4-20 pitch 2 start screw will have a lead of .100

You would cut the first thread, move the compound 1/20th of an inch or .050" or .100/2 ( lead / 2) and then cut the second thread.

It would be useful to have a 3 phase motor on the lathe to make stopping the spindle easy. However, with a spindle crank, as has been detailed ad neausium in ME and MEWS, you can hand turn the spindle to cut the thread just as easy and those with single phase machines will have less anxiety coming up to a shoulder or the chuck.

If the thread has a oddball pitch with a fractional thousandth or so, you may want to use a dial indicator to track the movement of the compound instead of the compound feed screw in case the screw has some wear or is sloppy.
It is important to move the compound the EXACT amount. This is important!

Cut the screw long and make half of it into a tap to make the nut. Or make two if double length is too woobly.

This should work a treat with fine threads ( 20 or less per inch).

Hope that is clear, If I can explain something better let me know.

Best wishes,

Dave


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## Bogstandard

Dave, thanks for that.

I will eventually go thru this post, and cut and paste all these bits of offered wisdom out and turn it into a post in its own right.

John


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## Bogstandard

Due to some thoughts that this is an elitist type of post, no further posts will be added to this.

John


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## pelallito

John,
I hope that we can help change your mind. I have enjoyed reading about your new shop.
Regards,
Fred


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## CrewCab

I've enjoyed it too, as I am sure have many others, plus I've found it informative; I'd be disappointed not to follow it through to it's conclusion.

CC


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## Brass_Machine

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Due to some thoughts that this is an elitist type of post, no further posts will be added to this.
> 
> John



You know as well as anyone else the whole board enjoys reading your posts. I know for a fact that people have joined the forum because of your posts. 

There is no reason to stop posting in your thread, so cut the [email protected] and keep up the great work. ;D

Eric


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## malcolmt

Hi John
I do hope we can change your mind on this one, as a new returner to home engineering i find that your explanations are so easily understood and the fact that you also explain your reasons for what you are doing so clearly, Make it possible for me in particular and I'm sure many others to share your vast knowledge in a way that i could not imagine being more easy to understand. (i.e. for a dope like me) although not all of us have the wonderful tools that you have I'm sure we all appreciate that you have earned them, we may all do the tool envy thing from time to time but i promise it is entirely in fun.
Please re consider your stance on this John it really does mean so much to all of us.

Kind regards

Malcolm


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## georgeseal

........


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## steamer

Yes John, I too would like to see your shop.  We all struggle with shop set up, it's nice to see how others do it.


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## applescotty

Ditto. I've really enjoyed watching how you're putting together your 'new' shop. Even the troubles you've had with the lathe have been interesting, although I wish for your sake that everything had been smooth sailing. Most of us probably won't get a chance to completely re-quip our shops like you're getting to do, so we get to do it vicariously through your experience.

Scott


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## Metal Mickey

John, you have helped me personally on several items. I have a website which acts as a little therapy and fills my horizontal day. On that I recommend this forum as a great place for beginners as a friendly site. I am sure that the way the CNC debate and the reasons for your ceasing posting here can be overcome, can't they? It is a resource that I value extremely highly whatever the subject and I really hope you will resume this post John. If both parties could turn the other cheek as it were, posts could resume.....

There have been important lessons in how to set up new equipment and perhaps more importantly, safety issues highlighted for all to benefit from (chuck guard).

So it would be nice for you to reconsider. After all we all have to, so my wife says!


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## Peter Neill

Nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned tool gloat at all (I know it's not supposed to be one..).
If anyone has just shelled out loads of dosh on some nice brand new facilities and tooling, then why shouldn't they have a little gloat about it?

It's not willy-waving and it's not elitism, it's just human nature to want to shout "come and have a look at what I've just got!", in just the same way that people want to shout about the latest model or piece of tooling they've made, (or what CAD system they've got.. ;D)
Apart from that, posts of this nature are ALWAYS interesting to anyone who has an interest in model engineering or HSM pursuits.
Face it - even the professionals amongst us like a bit of new tool porn.

On the subject of lathes from Chester, you have my sympathy as I cant say the two words in the same phrase without spitting feathers.
I had the misfortune to buy a new lathe from them several years ago. Unpacked it, set it up, started it up, re-packed it and asked them for another one. A new one came out fairly promptly, and went through exactly the same procedure. I then had to argue with them for a week about getting it picked up and money refunded. If you're really interested in all that was wrong with it I'll dig out my old e-mails and put the list together, but I don't think I'll ever buy from them again.
Good luck with getting things sorted out on yours.

When everything comes together in the new workshop I'm sure you'll be a happier man.

Peter


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## Mcgyver

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Due to some thoughts that this is an elitist type of post, no further posts will be added to this.
> 
> John



I don't even know what that means??? ???

there must be a lot of back room conversations stressing everyone out cuz I don't why there's always this concern about being to little or too much elitism or safety or whatever. don' like something? say it in the thread, no one's going have a conniption...its just an opinion after all. I liked seeing veterans shops when i was newbie 

its the internet, not everyone is going to agree on everything or see it the same way...and when they don't, who cares? you can still be pals and clink glasses without agreeing on everything, right? 

as to this elitism charge, the very notion is BS imo. We work, we make decisions, we allocate resources, we save, we end up with stuff. Is there anyone here who could honestly say that over the next 20 years they couldn't have the best shop of all of us if that was singularly what was most important to them? sheesh it doesn't even have to mean one has money, in the long run its how each individual prioritizes - the most elaborate shop on these pages isn't out of any one's reach if that was the most important thing to them.

keep going John


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## dparker

John: I for one very much enjoy and have learned a lot from your posts on your update on your shop. The things you write to think about and look for are a great help to anyone that is contemplating a addition to, or even building a new shop in the future. 
I hope to be building a new shop in a couple of years (God willing) and was reading each post. I will be keeping the same tools that my Dad had and adding my collection to it. The setup and forward thinking about placement and tuning up of the machines was, and is, a great help. 
These tools will be new tools to me but I don't know much about many of his tools as I had to move 600 miles from home to make a living. I don't even know how the chuck is mounted on Dad's floor mount lathe among many other things, I need to know several things that you have mentioned or hope you will mention in the future that would be of great help to myself and I'm sure many others on this forum.
Your experience and abilities are a great asset to this forum and as far as I know, we all look up to you as a mentor that knows what you are talking about.
Please do not leave us with a story unfinished that is so interesting, we as a group would like to have the chance to do what you are doing.
don


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## rake60

Please allow me to assure all of you that there has been* NO* backroom
talk here.

If John feels it is best to not continue his posts on the progress of his
new shop, it is by his own choice.

Personally, I've looked forward to each new progress update.

*No one* here will ever be pressured or *begged* to contribute a post.

That is a choice to be made by the individual member.

It is John's call.
If his decision is to terminate it, I accept his opinion.

Rick


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## Cedge

John
Get your knickers untwisted from between your cheeks and get back to posting to the thread. Your sad saga has been about as elite as the bar room in the local bowling alley. Pedestrian and pale though it might be, there are a lot of guys waiting on your next installment. You can't help it that you got skinned by a fancy talkin' second hand machinery maven. He was just talkin' faster than you was listenin'...(grin)

Rick... well said, but this torch lit mob is gathering and we're headed to Bog's place for a beer.... HIS warm English beer. When we leave we're takin' Bandit with us and we're leaving Bogo with only a second hand Harbor Freight mini mill. That should skeer the old sod. 

Steve
Official Throwing Rock Supplier to this Mob


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## dsquire

John

Do I have to use the rest of my investments that hasn't disappeared in the last few months to hop a flight to get over and join the rest of the lads when they all show up in your new shop. I may not have enough funds to get back so you might be stuck with me.

I have enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a lot. I do want to continue reading and learning so please John, pull out the keyboard and lets get on with it.

I know you really want to do this John.

Cheers

Don :bow:


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## steamer

OK Bog,


Cut the *#^$^.

Would you PLEASE tell us about your new shop?.....with sugar on it.....

 ;D


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## Bogstandard

Gentlemen,

I have been accused of all things in my life, but never of being a hypocrite.

This isn't to do as some suggest, spite, malice, pouting because I didn't get my own way, or any other thing you can come up with.

Wareagle contacted me over this issue, and I gave him the full issue.

To give you an abridged version.

I have very deep personal morals.

I accused someone, rightly or wrongly in your eyes, of being elitist. From that thread I also was accused of the same thing. I realised my post was actually partially elitist, so MY PERSONAL MORALS meant that I could not continue with this post, without being both a hypocrite in not only your eyes, but in my own moral eyes as well (and my personal beliefs are a lot more powerful than yours).

My personal morality issue caused great friction last year, when certain things were happening on this site, and I don't want to go thru all that again.

If I am wrong in my own eyes I will apologise publicly, as I have done in the past. If I am right in my own little world of morals, I stick to my guns tooth and nail to support my beliefs.

Would you have someone go against their own personal beliefs and way of life, that they have stood by for many many years?

Please leave it at that.

John


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## Cedge

Okay... I give up. John, go ahead and sit in your little shop and sulk on your superior morals all you like. Truth being told.... both parties to that argument took boneheaded stances and need to get a grip. However, you no longer are authorized to use the word "elitist" in any context, whatsoever. 

keep moving folks... nothing happening here to see 

Steve 
Going to water his scruples, since morals are out of season.


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## Bogstandard

> John, go ahead and sit in your little shop and sulk on your superior morals all you like.



I actually resent that, and in my eyes well out of order. They are not superior morals at all, just my beliefs and way of life.

Don't you or anyone else reading this have morals as well? 

How would you like to be criticised for the way you live your life?



> However, you no longer are authorized to use the word "elitist" in any context, whatsoever.



Very sorry to disappoint, but if it rears it's head again, I will speak out and take the flak. One of the major rules on here is no-one is above anyone else. It is help that should be given, not one upmanship.

'nuff said.


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## Cedge

John
You make my point brilliantly. You are one hundred percent correct in saying no one's morals are superior. Then you go on to finish making it even more clearly. This is a place for help given freely. This one thread alone has covered perhaps the broadest spectrum of down to earth dirty fingernail information of any I've read on the board. You've covered negotiation, you've covered delivery, you've covered rigging and installation, you've covered inspection, you've covered trouble shooting, upgrading, setting the machines up and dealing with a bad product problem and getting around machine and physical limitations to get it all done.

I'm not quite sure how that all equates to being hypocritical but if it does then we sure need more of it. Yep... I stepped on your toes and I did it intentionally. You responded just as I figured you would, with the added bonus of making my point even better than I would have. Now... if your conscience is still beating the elitist horse, put the damned poor thing back in the barn.... it's already a dead animal.

There are still more crisis to come that you'll need to cover in this thread and the loyal crew camping here is not going to let you off that easy. Get back to work.

Steve


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## Bogstandard

Not BS Steve.



> There are still more crisis to come that you'll need to cover in this thread and the loyal crew camping here is not going to let you off that easy. Get back to work.



I will continue with such posts as you have mentioned, and hopefully this time it will be totally unbiased (in everyones eyes), but not on this one. 

So please put it to rest.


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## zeusrekning

??? I wish I could find the head shaking smiley. This kind of crap is very dissapointing to read. Especially from a group of such old farts, Uh I mean mature gentlemen. John, I respect you much more than you know, but the elitism thing really is .... BS for lack of a better term. I can't figure out why this term gets thrown around so easily. I think not documenting what you are doing takes away from what this forum is about. All this and I havent seen compound in a while. ???
Tim


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## kvom

Just start a new thread, "Building my shop chapter 2". Problem solved :

I am getting fairly close to getting my shop built, so I hope to have a similar thread myself. Reading yours has been very useful. I hope to get the same sort of feedback as well. Being such a newbie, I doubt anyone will call me elistist ("old fart", maybe).


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## Bogstandard

Kvom,

Thank you, that is exactly what I was going to do, but people on here wanted me to carry on with this one, against my beliefs.

John


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## wareagle

Gentlemen,

Let's stop asking Bogs to continue on with this thread. He has made his wishes clear. Whether any of us agree or disagree is irrelevant to the issue. He has made his decisions based on his beliefs and values.

From this point forward, any nudges, even with the best of intentions, will not help the situation. Let's all give him due respect and move on.

Thank you,
W/E


----------

