# Line shaft



## Powder keg (Dec 1, 2009)

Hey Everyone,

This summer I bought a post drill and I ran across a bench grinder that require flat belts to run them. I've been cleaning my shop and I have a spot for them to live\0/ I found a 1/2 horse industrial motor that I think will run them fine. My problem.....

I was born about 100 years too late :shrug: I am having a bunch of trouble finding much info on the subject. I found a book that I think will get me by. But I thought It would be neat get the info from people that have actually seen/used equipment ran with overhead belts. 

I'm planing on fabricating brackets to mount the motor and shafts on the wall behind the equipment. I haven't decided if I'm going to cast them or build them up from bar stock. I've heard that cast iron bearings will outlast bronze bushings many times over. 

The drill press has had liberal doses of WD40 applied latly and ticks over like a Swiss watch. The power feed will be nice. The grinder has a broken piece and a couple of pieces missing. They will be easy to fab up from pictures I have. 

Thanks for any input, Wes

 wEc1


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 1, 2009)

The cast iron vs bronze bushing is an interesting issue. ???I Might be wrong but I think that bronze bushings would out last cast iron. The only knowledge I have as a basis for my opinion is that cast iron is usually bronze bushed, like the 'rear blade wheel' on my H/V band saw.

I have heard that bronze bushings are best greased, so I drilled a 'L' shaped passage in the shaft and added a grease fitting to its end. Been using the saw for a few years with no noticeable wear on the bushing. ;D

-MB


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## hammers-n-nails (Dec 2, 2009)

it was always my understanding that the reason for using dissimilar materials was so only one part would wear, that part being designed so as to be easily replaced. so in that same line of thinking i would say yes ci berings may last longer but your line shaft will wear also. another thought, 1/2hp seems to be a little on the small side when you consider the power losses you may have in a line shaft system, but i may be wrong about everything ive said.


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## Powder keg (Dec 2, 2009)

I was thinking 1/2 might be a little small. But It was free and I can always scrounge a bigger one from somewhere) I'll try and get some pictures of my post drill and grinder up here.

Thanks for the input, Wes


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## tel (Dec 2, 2009)

Way back when ..... it was common practice in this country to run line shafting in wooden (River Red Gum) bearings - trouble was the red gum acts like a lap and will wear a 2" shaft right through. given enough time. Cast Iron will be OK as long as you fit oilers, bronze, fit grease nipples and, in either case, tend to them regularly.

For belt dressing common old cow molasses works fine but does tend to make a mess.


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## Deanofid (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi Wes;

Cast iron bearings will last for a long, long time. I've seen some old, fairly large lathes that used only the cast iron of the head stock as the bearing for the spindle. I don't know how old they were.  Old.
Then, think about all the 50-75 year old jack shafts still in use on a lot of older lathes today. Many of those have no bushing material. Just the cast iron bores that the shaft runs in, and they usually run pretty fast.

That said, I would use bronze bearing stock. Your shafting will last longer, and someday, when the bearings do wear out, they'll be easy to replace. It may also be easier from a manufacturing point of view. You can buy some types of sintered bronze bearing stock already made to the size of your shafting. Depends on the size of the shaft.

This is not a suggestion, but something you may find interesting. There was a machine shop here in town that still had overhead shaft and leather belt drive for a couple of their machines. The bearings in them were oak. No one in the shop could remember replacing them, and there were a couple of pretty old heads there.

Dean


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## coldte (Dec 2, 2009)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> The cast iron vs bronze bushing is an interesting issue. ???I Might be wrong but I think that bronze bushings would out last cast iron. The only knowledge I have as a basis for my opinion is that cast iron is usually bronze bushed, like the 'rear blade wheel' on my H/V band saw.
> 
> I have heard that bronze bushings are best greased, so I drilled a 'L' shaped passage in the shaft and added a grease fitting to its end. Been using the saw for a few years with no noticeable wear on the bushing. ;D
> 
> -MB


Hi,many years ago i purchased a very large planer (24 inch blades) that had cast iron bearing surfaces , on stripping it there was very little wear considering the age circa 1925 the motor to run it weighed about 160 lbs plus and was only 1 1/2 hp total weight of machine close to 450 lbs + so they have been used for some heavy machines early in the 20th century.
regards coldte


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## Toyman01 (Dec 2, 2009)

The drive system bearings for my lathe and the bearings in my lathe are cast iron and have no wear even though they are 50+ years old. That said, seeing as how you are building the brackets, why wouldn't you use ball bearings.


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## Powder keg (Dec 4, 2009)

A buddy of mine told me about when he was a kid his dad ran a Case thrashing machine. he said a lot of the shafts on it had wood bearings on them. He said that it was pretty impressive because they were going full speed all the time trying to get the job done. 

I've decided to try wood for my line shaft bearings. I can always change it later if it doesn't work. I've done a little research on wood bearings. There is a company that still makes them. Who would have thought? It turns out that oil soaks into the wood. When it starts to warm up a bit the oil gets runny and comes out of the wood to lube things then is reabsorbed as the bearing cools off. Anyway, I have some Oak that I'll fashion into bearings for my lines haft. I have them drawn up. I'll start on them as soon as my bench in clean.

Why not just by some ball bearings? Anyone can do that. This is just for fun\0/ Pictures to follow.


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2009)

Oak will work fine for lineshaft bearings in a non industrial setting. Better yet, once you have the bearings finished, soak them in a container of heated oil for a couple of hours to soak the oil into the pores in the wood. A 1/2 HP motor will be too light to run a lineshaft set-up because of frictional losses unless the machines being driven turn at a low RPM.


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## Alan J. Richer (Dec 4, 2009)

Brian, I will not argue with your expertise as you are far more knowledgeable than I - but I would personally have not recommended oak for a bearing. It's too open-pored in most subspecies, and tends to burn at high speeds.

Personally I would have gone for maple, which was a very common wood for bearings in textile machinery. If one visits the Slater Mill in Pawtucket, RI, you can see textile machines there that are mostly wood, with metal only where absolutely needed.

Maple well-saturated in oil will run for a very long time in a lineshaft setup. I used to see lots of that in the mills my Dad worked in as a mechanic (there called a "fixer") lo these many, many years ago. 

         Alan


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## jabezkin (Dec 4, 2009)

Lignum Vitae. It was good enough for our first Nuclear Sub on the prop shaft. 

There is, or was a couple of years ago, a Blacksmith shop in Tustin Ca that ran overhead shafts. It was a big shop and they might be a sourse of info. 

Sorry I don't remember the name.

Rob


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2009)

I have used oak as bearing material with no real wear issues. In my part of Ontario, native maple is more porous, but will wear much quicker than oak. I use oak as the slider bars on the power hacksaw I built 40 years ago and it is still in great shape.---No signifigant wear is visible, and that old saw has cut a LOT of steel in the last 40 years.------- On a side note, when I was a kid my mother wanted hardwood floors put in our dining room. My dad had a lot of maple on our property, so he cut down a few of the trees and had them sawn and planed into appropriate sized boards to make a hardwood floor. It was the custom at that time (about 1958) to put the floor down, then sand it in place with a large belt sander. He had a local contracter with a lot of experience in sanding oak floors come in and do ours----And he promptly ruined the floor. The contractor told us that the maple was so much softer than the oak he was accustomed to sanding, that the sander dug in all over the place instead of "skating" on the surface like it would have on an oak floor.


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## jabezkin (Dec 4, 2009)

jabezkin  said:
			
		

> Lignum Vitae. It was good enough for our first Nuclear Sub on the prop shaft.
> 
> There is, or was a couple of years ago, a Blacksmith shop in Tustin Ca that ran overhead shafts. It was a big shop and they might be a sourse of info.
> 
> ...



Tustin Blacksmith Shop.........................ADHD is a terrible thing to waste.


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## jabezkin (Dec 4, 2009)

Really slow today. Go to the Machinists' Bible "Machinery Handbook" They used to give specs for using wood bearings, don't have a new copy but in the 90s they had it. (Yes the 1990s also!)

Just checked the 25th ed, its there. 2000 PSI and 2000sfpm. Not half bad.


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## Powder keg (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the stories and tips fellas. 

Today I moved my work bench away from the wall. The east wall had insulation, but that was it. I bought some OSB and a buddy of mine came over and helped me install it\0/ In the morning I'll start painting. I also bought a post to hold my new drill press. As soon as I get my bench back, I'll start making parts and pieces for my line shaft setup. I've also been trying to find a bigger motor. I'd like a 1 or 1.5 horse motor. That should be plenty. 

I've been doing some research on the belts. I think I'll buy the leather and make my own. I can't decide if I should glue them together or lace them? I haven't found a recommendation on what kind of glue would work best. Probably doesn't make that much difference? If I glue them I'll probably make a jig to plane down the lap joint and hold and clamp it while the glue dries.


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## Kermit (Dec 4, 2009)

Have you considered a chain drive connection from motor to shaft? 

Might get better transmission of torque for sudden loading.  And no slip.


Just a thought,
Kermit


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## Powder keg (Dec 4, 2009)

If set up right, I think the belts should run fine. I am mainly trying to have a later 1800's setup with these tools ;D I like the old stuff. I might even learn something  

Thanks


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## Powder keg (Dec 5, 2009)

Here is a quick picture of the grinder and drill press. I have a post now to mount the press to\o/







More later.....


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## Deanofid (Dec 6, 2009)

Oh, that's a nice bit of ol' machinery, Keg. I like it.

Dean


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## Powder keg (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks. I can't wait to see her ticking over under power. I have my wall painted and the bench back up against it. this week I'll try and get the post mounted. I need to order some belting and find out what to use for glue? And a few other things)


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## rustranch (Dec 6, 2009)

Well I see we have been shopping in the same type of supply "junk" pile. Here's my treasures from a few weeks ago. You just surprised me with a picture of a similar post drill. I have the little one cleaned up and waiting on an idea of where or what to so with it. The larger ones patina still has it stuck fast. Hum it has a hand wheel not a drive pulley.


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## Mutley (Dec 6, 2009)

My uncle has a lot of vintage machinery, (stationary engines, tractors, thrashing machines etc) he also has a couple of old line shafts kicking around, (he used to use one, running from a crossly 2 cylinder diesel engine, i am sure that had bronze bearings) the belts that was on the shafts are made from canvas and are joined by a metal connector which looks like a really fine finger joint you get in wooden boxes, this clamps into the canvas webbing and is joined via a pin going through like the pin in a watch strap.

Also, once up and running, the belt would stretch, we used to pour water on it to cool it and make it shrink again.


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## bearcar1 (Dec 6, 2009)

Here is a photograph I shot at an annual steam show. It is of one of the overhead line shaft hangers used to power the original Ford engine factory tooling. Although this may not be suitable for home shop use, I thought it would give a idea of the hangers overall construction.

BC1
Jim


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## Powder keg (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for the pictures. I found this earlier It has some Really nice looking hangers.






I like the way people cared about the way everything looked in the old days.


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## Mutley (Dec 6, 2009)

This may help http://leatherdrivebelts.com/index.html


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## bearcar1 (Dec 6, 2009)

Those are some elegant hangers, I wonder if the more ornate units were from powering the early ceiling fans that were employed in mansions and civic buildings.

BC1
Jim


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## Powder keg (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for the link Mutley.

I found an old book on the net that has some info on leather belts. It says the best joint is glued and pegged. After you glue it, you poke holes in the leather with an awl and insert wood pegs through the leather. Then you trim them off flush with the belt. Sounds like fun to me)

I think I'll give the 1/2 horse motor a shot before I get a bigger one. I'm planing on gearing it down pretty slow. I might run a jackshaft to speed the grinder back up.


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## Powder keg (Dec 6, 2009)

Well, I started taking the grinder apart for a clean and paint. It looks like I'm going to have to make a couple more parts than I originally thought\0/ The ends of the shafts take a tapered flange that has an integral boss to center the wheel. One is missing. It had a flat pulley and a V pulley installed on the shaft. These originally had a loose and a tight pulley. The tight pulley is missing. I'll have to make one of those. That and two tool rests need to be made. The originals are long gone. 

I found a tool catalog from 1920 that has this grinder for sale. It was pretty versatile. There were a couple of attachments that you could sharpen discs and sickles with it. 

With this loose and tight pulley arrangement, Do you have to have loos and tight pulleys on the line shaft as well?

I'll post a couple of pictures tomorrow. My paws were too messy to touch the camera ;D


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## Deanofid (Dec 7, 2009)

Keg, I have a SB manual that says if you want a glue joint use airplane dope or acetone cement. 
You can still get airplane dope, but I'm not sure how to use it to splice a belt. 
For the acetone cement, try Pliobond. I know this stuff will glue leather. On a three to four inch overlap for 1 1/2" wide belt, you won't be able to pull it apart.

Dean


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## Jared (Dec 7, 2009)

I got here a little late and the topic seems to have moved on, but I thought I'd put in my two cents worth on bearings. Jabezkin mentioned lignum vitea. The 82-year-old fishing boat I work on still has the original lignum vitae propeller shaft bearing that has lasted though the boat has worn out three engines and is on it's forth which isn't exactly new. And both the prop and shaft are massive chunks of bronze, so there is a considerable amount of weight resting on the bearing.


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## Alan J. Richer (Dec 7, 2009)

Re: Lignum Vitae:

That's in a water-lubricated environment, unless I miss my guess. Lignum will run forever that way as long as there's liquid around it. Not sure how it will do in a dry or oil-lubricated environment, but it would be interesting.

Re: Maple: 

Lots of different species of maple...not sure what one you're talking about when you're getting material that soft (ruined in sanding).

The one I am familiar with in bearing use is called rock maple - this stuff will dull high-speed-steel saw blades when it's being cut once seasoned. It's also commonly used in lab bench tops and other high impermeability/high durability applications.

Let me have a dig through my books when i get home over the next day or two and i'll bring some numbers to the discussion.

Re: Leather cement:

Get thee to the nearest Tandy leather or good hardware store - there is a cement that is highly recommended for leather goods and belting called Barge Cement (it's the brand name). This stuff works really nicely for scarf joints in belting - scarf back the belt ends , apply cement, align, clamp between wood blocks and then allow to cure. A bit of waxed paper between the blocks and the belt wouldn't be a bad idea, or you might be one of the many who has glued the clamp blocks to the belt with the squeeze-out... 


            ajr


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## Powder keg (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the story Jared. That is amazing that it is still running after 82 years!!!

Thanks for the tip on the leather cement!!! Also on the waxed paper)

I'll get some pictures tonight of the parts I need to make.


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## Powder keg (Dec 9, 2009)

Been busy around here. Here is the top of the grinder. It shows the busted ear on the bearing cap. Someone had "fixed" it before and busted it again. I ground off the "fix" and cleaned up the casting. 






Yeah!!! The bolt holes still line up ;D A little file time and some paint. no one will know that it was busted.






I've never seen or used a grease cup before. I must be a "young sprout" ;D If you look really close there are two in this picture. They still have a protective "coating" on them.






This is the warsher with a tapered bore. It also pilots the grinding wheel. I need to make one of these and two of warsher's that go on the other side. 










I have most of the metal for my flat pulleys. The big ones will be around 12.75. I'm going to build them up from bar stock and some tube.


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## Mutley (Dec 11, 2009)

I used to make high voltage cable a few years ago, and the machines used to have those grease caps on, they work really well, just fill up at the start of shift, then every hour or so, just give them a quarter turn.


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## Powder keg (Dec 12, 2009)

Made some more progress today\o/ I managed to get the outer warshers made for my grinder. The originals were long gone.






I had a chance to bend the spokes today for my flat belt pulleys that I need to make. Worked on these this morning. I turned the taper on the shaft and then heated and bent them on a cheesy jig that I made. But they turned out pretty good I think. I now need to make the hub and the rim's and weld the lot together.






A buddy is coming over to help me install my post for my drill\o/


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## Powder keg (Dec 12, 2009)

Here is the tapered pilot warsher that I made next to the original. I left the finish a little rough to match the original. A couple of interesting things that I noticed. The original was made from a casting. The roundy shapes on the outside were made with a form tool. They cut the whole end all at once. You can tell by the chatter lines that match up on the end. They probably then used some enery paper to clean it up a bit.


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## Powder keg (Dec 12, 2009)

I welded up the pieces for my bracket today. A buddy cut them out for me)






My Bald headed friend grabbed the hammer drill first) 






We got the post drill mounted for now. There are a couple of things that I want to fix. Then It will get painted.






Now back to my grinder. I have some pulleys to make)


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 12, 2009)

Hey!!! You must go to the same barber I do!!!


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## Powder keg (Dec 12, 2009)

That's not me Brian. That's my buddy Lee. I'm about 20 years younger)


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## Powder keg (Dec 12, 2009)

Had a great day in the shop today!!! I chucked up a piece of shaft today and on the inside of it was an old style flat pulley!!! I still have to cut the crown on it though.







Here Is what I have thus far. I need to make a couple of set screws for the tight pulley and clean some more.






I need to get some flat bar for the tool rests. The originals are long gone now( That will be a fun lathe project!!!

Now on to the pulleys for the line shaft\o/


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## Deanofid (Dec 13, 2009)

That post drill is the cat's meow, Keg. I think you are required to have a handle bar moustache to run one of those things.


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## Powder keg (Dec 13, 2009)

Could a 6" beard substitute the mustache? Rof}

I got started on the rims for the pulleys. They are about 12" sch 80 pipe I think? I had to put on the 10" 4 jaw and twist my tool post a little to get enough room. Kind of a big project for a little lathe) But very doable.






More later today)


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## Deanofid (Dec 13, 2009)

How much fun was that, truing up that flame cut end? Whack, bump, hiss, whack, bump, hiss.. 
Eeeyow.

Keep us up to date. It's a neat project, Keg.

Dean


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## Powder keg (Dec 13, 2009)

You could hear me cussing couldn't you? ) I got it though. I had to run pretty slow. 2 more and I'll be ready to start welding. I have the second pulley rim nearly done. There will be a 1" a 2.25" and a 2.5" pulley. 






While the pulley was running, I had a chance to rough out my wooden bearings\o/ I cut them out on my band saw. Then I milled then square. 






I'll set up my vise stop to drill the bolt holes. That way they should all lign up fine. I need to get some metal for my bearing hangers next week to. 

Wes


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## rake60 (Dec 13, 2009)

Looks great Wes!

I have to ask.
Did that set up hold to true up that flame cut face?
I most likely would have picking that up off the floor 
at least once.

I'm looking forward to more updates on the progress. 

Rick


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## Powder keg (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick, It got a little Wonky, but not bad. We machine pipe at work a LOT!!! I hate it!!! But I guess I'm used to it enough to know how to do it without much trouble? I took pretty small cuts. You have to hold onto it tight enough that it won't end up on the floor, but loose enough that you don't turn it into a square)


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## Powder keg (Dec 15, 2009)

Just thought I would Update this.

I have been roughing out the rims for my pulleys. I'm making three of them. All I have left is to face two of them to legnth. It will take me about an hour to set them up and face them off. Then I can start on the hubs. Those will go faster\o/

This bench grinder is becoming a fun project. I have never restored anything before. It makes me want to do more) I have an old Buffalo Forge drill press. I am thinking of ways to fix a couple of problems it has. Sun, I was looking at old tools on Ebay. I ran across a smallish wood lathe made in 1932. I got it for $27\o/ It will be fun to make some file handles on it. A few years ago, I bought a BIG surface grinder. I'm going to start working it over this winter. 

More pictures soon)


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## SBWHART (Dec 16, 2009)

Hi been following this thread with interest hope you don't mind me postinga couple of pics of line shafting I took at the Blis Mill industrial musium of line shafting.











When I first started my apprenticeship we had a line of small 1/4 ton presses driven by line shafting, making steel links for machine guns, the presses were operated by young girls a women, being on the shy side they scared me to death, but that soon changed :big: :big:

Cheers

Stew


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## Powder keg (Dec 16, 2009)

Post all the pictures you want\o/ ;D

Tonight I didn't get much done. I try to get something done every night, so, I pushed myself to go out and do "something". I thought I could mill the oil galleys into my wood bearings. So I marked them out and did that\o/






More tomorrow....


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