# Taking responsabilty for you actions.



## kd7fhg (Mar 20, 2010)

Next time you have an aw S**T moment and get hurt on you lathe, Mill or any power tool Just sue the manufacture for not providing the correct safety guards.http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/sawstop_saw_brake_safety_devic.html

Have a great day

Rex


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## bearcar1 (Mar 20, 2010)

It's amusing to me to have read the major businesses and opposition groups claim that these devices would lend themselves to the operators becoming too complacent in observing safety. What a crock of **** that is. Most machine operators I know of, including myself, are always scared of getting hurt. It is when the mind gets overloaded or distracted that things get ugly. (that is if one isn't attempting something that is so very obviously stupid to begin with) I would love to have peace of mind knowing that if I did (and I have) get into one of those situations that the machine would be smarter than I and respond accordingly so that I could count to ten using my fingers the next day. Also, that same opposing group complains about the devices would add another $100-$150 to the price tag. Yeah, so? When your talking several thousand to begin with what makes the difference to them, they will have to pay some poor slob in China another what, $.03 a day? Give me a break. I apologize for the ranting but at my age I am becoming less tolerant to these special interest groups and their croonies in Washington dictating what can/can't-should/shouldn't be done in order for the average Joe Schmo to do his job (that is provided he still has one but that is another rant) It would be interesting to see this device in use on a mill spindle don't you think? Ah technology, the more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. 

Cheers ;D

BC1
Jim


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## Kermit (Mar 20, 2010)

Introducing- "Bullet Stop"! The all new technology that senses when a bullet is about to enter the flesh of a living person and STOPS that chunk of lead, dead.

Now let's sue Smith & Wesson, and Remington.  :


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## Blogwitch (Mar 20, 2010)

Are ladies or even gents to be denied the use of sharp needles for sewing, just in case one in a billion was to prick themselves, get tetanus and eventually die. 

Maybe cutlery manufacturers shouldn't sell sharp knives and forks, just in case we hurt ourselves. 
If that was to happen we would most probably end up with professional feeders, with an operators 'licence' to cut up our food and feed us, or maybe we should all take to sucking soup thru a straw. 
Just wait a minute, do straws have sharp edges? Amend the above to rubber tubes. Just wait a minute, do rubber tubes have any toxic contents in their make up? Amend the previous statement. Everyone, just stop eating and drinking, it is safer for you.

As can be seen, these are stupid examples, but by using the examples of the lawsuit cases going thru the courts, examples like this could very easily be filed and won.

The world is going mad, with no common sense being shown at all.

Bogs


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## steamer (Apr 30, 2010)

How right you are Bogs...



Dave


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## putputman (May 1, 2010)

I don't know if there is any truth to the story, but I have heard that wood with any moisture in it would stop the saw. That would mean you couldn't cut any green wood or even treated wood.

If you have seen how the blade is stopped so fast, I wonder if the blade is even usable again. When the moisture is detected, the blade immediately drops down and an metal object is jammed into the blade to stop it. That could make the cost of operating the saw pretty expensive.


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## mu38&Bg# (May 1, 2010)

The $70 for a brake is probably less than most medical deductibles. This concept is great. Basically it uses GFI outlet tech. Wet wood and blade reuse is talked about in the FAQ on their website. I think it's an excellent product. If everyone was using it, they wouldn't cost twice as much. As soon as the patent runs out, they will be everywhere.


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## itowbig (May 1, 2010)

me likes good thing to save fingers. we have way to many lawers that are willing to sue anybody PROB #1
PROB #2 there are people that just dont have a clue hence they get hurt.
i really do like that teck stuff its great but some dummy will still get hurt im sure about that just because there not very smart about things like KEEPING YOUR FINGERS AWAY FROM SHARP STUFF.
as a side note they do make gloves that you can not cut your hands or fingers maybe those would be in order.
what do u think?


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## Tin Falcon (May 1, 2010)

I think this is a great invention to save fingers. It is a bit pricey but cheap compared to an emergency room visit. and a great investment to prevent loss of down time do to to hand injuries. I also think this is a last line of defense when it comes to shop safety . It is not a substitute for any other safety practice it is not a substitute for keep you hands clear of turning saw blades it is not a substitute for common sense. 
As far as gloves I do not think even kevlar would protect your hands from a spinning saw blade and gloves around machine tools are the cause of injuries and not a prevention. 
Tin


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## chuck foster (May 1, 2010)

there is an old saying "make some thing idiot proof and they will make a better idiot"
but i agree with tin and others it is cheap compaired to the loss of fingers and down time.

chuck


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## Deanofid (May 4, 2010)

I don't need a nanny in my shop. Make this thing an option, if they want, but let normal people who actually know that a saw is a _cutting tool_ decide what they want to buy.

Let this camel get its' nose in the tent, and soon no one but rich people will be able to enjoy anything but sitting in front of the boob toob. Before long, that $499 mini lathe will cost $1200 and you'll have to get a permit to use it.

People need to be responsible for themselves, and their fingers. Not the gubment and the lawyers.

Dean


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## steamer (May 4, 2010)

Actually, the inventor of saw stop has demonstrated it with his own finger...on camera...talk about believing in your product!......I agree with Tin though...last line of defense.  

Kevlar won't cut with a saw blade, it needs to be sheared.  What would happen, and I have seen this happen with kevlar in a band saw, is it will hook around a tooth and pull into a saw with the tooth.  You will not like the out come if its a glove

Kevlar in an epoxy matrix will cut with a saw....but not by itself.

Dave

Here's a link to the video...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMD3agP5hv0[/ame]

I would try this at home kids.......


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## Omnimill (May 4, 2010)

I've seen this device before and think it's a great idea.

Vic.


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## kd7fhg (May 4, 2010)

When I started this post, I was not looking at the Saw stop device as being a good or bad idea, I was looking at the fact that the guy that sued, had a choice, he could have bought the Saw equipped with a Saw Stop but he chose not to, he bought the cheaper saw, (which did not have the stop feature) than ran his fingers through the blade and mangled his hand (As a side note I would like to how much Beer was in his system at the time of the "Accident"). Litigation such as this forces more and more restrictions on the manufactures as well as us. If this device or any other device of this nature became mandatory on all machinery, it could render all the old machinery as unsafe so its only value would be scrap iron. I don't feel that would ever happen but I hope you get my point.

Have a great day


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## mu38&Bg# (May 4, 2010)

Grandfather laws are there for a reason. If I ran a wood shop I would have these saws in my shop. Down time, medical insurance, etc. it would all pay for itself. I occasionally use a table saw and have a lot of respect for that blade.

This could be compared to ABS brakes, airbags, and now stability control in cars. Braking with ABS in 99% of situations is incredible. There are times it won't help, but most of those times it's your fault for putting yourself in that situation. It became standard in the auto industry because it is safer and people don't take the time to learn how their cars react in specific situations. I remember when people complained about ABS cost and how they could stop just a fast and some could. Who complains about ABS these days, maybe some systems are louder and more intrusive than others, but nobody complains about the performance or questions the safety benefit. Some people are incapable of mastering an emergency stop without ABS. The only difference is that everyone has a car and you are not the only that might put yourself into an accident.


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## kf2qd (May 4, 2010)

What ever happened to the user/worker being taught some safety procedures and being expected to be inteligent enough that he actually uses the safety instruction? While some of these safety devices may be "wonderful", they still don't take the place of a brain between your ears. Its just like the legislation to limit the toys in Happy Meals and set federal limits on salt and a multitude of other elements in our diet. Mybe you got fat because your to stupid to push away from the table. So I have to conform to your diet event though i have enough self control to not eat that stuff every meal. The problem with that device is when it fails to work and winds up doing even more damage. I don't trust the safety devices because they were created by folks just like us, and its the detail they forgat that scares me.

I have used tools all my life, and I have more injuries from manully powered tools than from power tools. My dad on the other hand has had several sets of stitches from power saws. As with a lot of things in life it still comes back to the loose nut on top of your shoulders. Do you ever think safety? or do you wait for someone else to do that for you?


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## Blogwitch (May 4, 2010)

DP,

Look at it in a different light.

Can the manufacturers guarantee it will work EVERY time?

If they can't, they are onto a hiding by lawsuits if one ever fails in someones workshop. Not just from the maybe injured person, but every purchaser would demand their money back.

There is no test that can be done on it without destroying or badly damaging the machine it is fitted to. That is the utter failing of their system when put before a thinking population. People will require it to work 100% of the time, then it needs to be resettable so that the machine can continue to be used, just as before.

Would YOU trust a manufacturer when he says it is guaranteed to work, without fail, 100% of the time? 

Beancounter figures are no use in a situation like this. Unless they have actually tried physically say a million times to test it, and got absolutely 100% success rate. Even then there is no guarantee it is foolproof, and do as they claim.

Manufacturers aren't in it for their health, there is only one thing they are interested in.

It will be very interesting to see this product in five years time, to see whether they have conned enough people into buying one, having not read the very fine print first.

'The manufacturers can take no responsibility if this safety feature fails to work'


Bogs


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## mu38&Bg# (May 4, 2010)

I always think about safety, but know a lot of people that don't. I also take responsibility for my own actions but know some who deny everything, and others who refuse to teach their children to be responsible for what they do.

Nobody guarantees anything today. That's why insurance in is such high demand.


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## zeeprogrammer (May 4, 2010)

I'm more of a "sometimes there's a place for it" kind of guy.

I can imagine my kid in shop class...with an inexperienced substitute...or a distracted teacher...or an incompetent teacher (they exist!)...

Sure...you could sue the school, or the manufacturer...but I'd rather the kid kept all his parts until some sense got in his head. I don't know about you...but me and 'sense' didn't meet up for quite a while.

You can argue that some of it didn't take hold.

And it seems I'm losing parts anyway. ;D But that's more to age than injury.

Reminds me though...when I was in high school (pre-litigation era)...the baseball backstop fell. It was hurricane fencing with 3" pipe all around. I was playing catcher and everyone started yelling. If I'd managed one more step my head would have been crushed by the top pipe.

As it was...they picked me up and I could hear everyone behind me gasp. My back looked like a red hurricane fence. (By the way...I know what it feels like to be a fly and swatted.)

The coaches (and I have to call them idiots here) had simply propped up the backstop with a couple of pipes. A lean-to.

Had it happened a few years later...I suspect my folks would be the proud owner of a coach or two.

I'm all for litigation...keeps the idiots a bit more careful and (one hopes fairly) compensates the injured. What I can't stand is the outrageous awards, the outrageous fees, the waste of time, and the greediness it fosters.


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## bearcar1 (May 4, 2010)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> Nobody guarantees anything today. That's why insurance in is such high demand.




That is not exactly true although it may seem so to many people. Insurance is so high because of all of the numb nuts morons that haven't got enough sense to perform a task safely and we all know of at least one in our lives and read about them and see them constantly on the airwaves, suing for huge sums of money because of their ignorance, carelessness, and or greed. Plain and simple. If folks ceased in the practice of suing companies as has seemed to have become the social standard in the last 35yrs. and started being consciously aware and responsible in their day to day lives the country would be a better place as a whole and perhaps insurance would not have to be so outrageously high to companies. 

BC1
Jim


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## rake60 (May 4, 2010)

These things always remind me of a law suit that was settled in the early 1980's.

Some intelligent man in his 30's was trimming his hedges.
He was holding his rotary lawn mower by it's deck moving it back and forth over
top of the hedges to trim them flat. His grip slipped and the mower tilted badly
mangling his right arm. 

He sued the manufacturer of that rotary lawn mower and won a $5 Million settlement.

The operators manual did *NOT* state *ANYWHERE* in it's contents that you should 
not use that machine to trim your hedges.

Take a look at the users manual for your lawn mower.
Somewhere in there you will find a notice that mower should not be used for any other
application.

That notice was inspired by $5 Million lefty.

*IDIOT!*

Rick


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## Captain Jerry (May 4, 2010)

Opinion from an oldtimer.

Industrial safety standards should be improved and improvements should be adopted without the need for financial justification. Financial justification ultimately results in some silly equation of life and limb vs profit. When that silly equation hits the nightly news headlines, everyone is appalled!

Industrial safety standards need not apply to non-industrial use. I do not wear steel toed shoes in the shop. I do not wear a back support brace. I do not wear a hard hat. I do not wear ear plugs. I do not have yellow lines on the floor marking hazardous areas.

I do wear safety glasses and I do have current fire extinguishers in the shop. Because I work alone in a remote location, I have installed a telephone with autodial that can be reached from the floor. I think about safety and understand that I can be injured if I do something stupid.

Which statement is closer to the truth?

  1. The table saw hurt me.

  2. I hurt myself with the table saw.

If you answer #1, you are more likely to be hurt by your table saw, your drill, your lathe, your telephone, your toothbrush or your coffee cup than if you answer #2.

Wow, it feels good to get that off my chest!

Jerry


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## mu38&Bg# (May 4, 2010)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> That is not exactly true although it may seem so to many people. Insurance is so high because of all of the numb nuts morons that haven't got enough sense to perform a task safely and we all know of at least one in our lives and read about them and see them constantly on the airwaves, suing for huge sums of money because of their ignorance, carelessness, and or greed. Plain and simple. If folks ceased in the practice of suing companies as has seemed to have become the social standard in the last 35yrs. and started being consciously aware and responsible in their day to day lives the country would be a better place as a whole and perhaps insurance would not have to be so outrageously high to companies.
> 
> BC1
> Jim



And I suppose those lawsuits aren't being paid by the liability insurance the manufacturers carry?


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## rake60 (May 5, 2010)

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> And I suppose those lawsuits aren't being paid by the liability insurance the manufacturers carry?



I am quite sure they are paid by the insurance companies.
That is what keeps the premium rates climbing.

Rick


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## mu38&Bg# (May 5, 2010)

That's exactly what I meant.


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## doubleboost (May 5, 2010)

Hi
Many years ago i did a lot of shooting ,i was an active member of a gun club.
I can recall on more than one occasion after a accidental discharge the guilty person saying "the safety catch was on"
As far as i am concerned if the chamber is loaded or the bolt closed it can fire.
I adopt the same attitude to my machine tools (if they are wired up they will run)
You do not need a guard or a notice to tell you not to poke your finger in to a running gear train,
Don't get me wrong guards should always be in place ,but common sense plays a big part in being safe


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## Blogwitch (May 5, 2010)

'Common sense' DB?

I think that word was dropped from the English language about 20 years ago.

Most of the kids nowadays have absolutely none, it has been replaced by 'couldn't care less' and arrogance.

Looking at a lot of them, if they went to pick their nose, I would hate to think where their finger would end up.

Finger up their a**e and brain in neutral springs to mind.

This is the honest truth. When my mid twenties son-in-law came to help me with building my covered way a few weeks ago, I asked him to screw some small woodscrews thru a bracket. A couple of minutes later, I looked at him, and there were screws all over the ground. 'They won't screw in', he said. 'Show me', says I.

He was only turning the screwdriver the wrong way. 

I very quickly gave him a crash course on how a screwdriver, adjustable spanner and a hammer worked. When I questioned him as to why he didn't know the basics, his reply was, 'I've never had to do it before'. Thank goodness I taught my daughter how to be self sufficient when it comes to doing jobs around their house.

If I can find one that quickly, there must be millions of them out there, walking around in pure ignorant bliss.


Bogs


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## doubleboost (May 5, 2010)

That sums it up .
Lots of them cant Even cross a road ,they just wander out as if the world owes them a living.
Mind you there are some good kids out there that want to work and learn.
I had a young lad come in to the garage a couple of years ago wanting a job , we were quiet at the time so i could not help him .
He kept coming back ,eventually saying he would work for a month without pay , and if he was no good i could tell him to p%$£s off .
I gave the lad a chance ,after half a shift you could tell he was different ,he could even use a sweeping brush.
He is now a valued member of staff.
Sorry for getting of subject
John


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## tmuir (May 5, 2010)

kf2qd  said:
			
		

> What ever happened to the user/worker being taught some safety procedures and being expected to be inteligent enough that he actually uses the safety instruction?



I think the important words here are 'inteligent enough'
A while back I was getting a small cable pit replaced in the carpark at my work.
My national safety manager had flown over and was going to audit my building.
I went out that morning and had a 'toolbox meeting' with my contractors and reminded them my national safety manager was coming so be extra sure they are wearing safety vests, have the pit guarded and wear all appropriate PPE for the task they are doing.

So of course when we went outside so my manager could do a on the spot audit we found one of the contractors using a petrol powered hand held brick cutter in the middle of the carpark with no guarding to keep the general public away, no hearing protection and no safety glasses. When we stopped him he had the gaul to say he know what the reguations were and if he didn't want to wear safety glasses or hearing protection he didn't need to.
I complained to that companies manager and he had him removed from my site and gave him a talking to. He fired him the next week when he went out to another site and saw the guy doing the same thing.....................

Some people just don't listen or want to learn..........


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## bearcar1 (May 5, 2010)

tmuir  said:
			
		

> Some people just don't listen or want to learn..........




Amen to that statement T', amen indeed. That is one of THE biggest annoyances that I have about anybody, the fact that they quantify some lame excuse to justify there actions.

BC1
Jim


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## mu38&Bg# (May 6, 2010)

I have this theory that human evolution has stopped and humans are devolving. Portions of the gene pool that should be removed by Darwinism are not due to technology and medicine. The human race is getting weaker. You don't have to fight to survive anymore. You don't even have to be responsible to survive.


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## Artie (May 6, 2010)

A few posts back Blogs used the term "common sense"..... it would seem that this elusive creature isnt so 'common'....

Also the term 'common sense' fits into the same category as 'military intelligence'. Some would say that they both are examples of oxymoronic speak.

I completely agree with Zees coments, anything that makes my children safer is ok with me. As for me? Yep I have a nasty scare on my finger from a close encounter with a bandsaw blade. It wasnt my machine and I never entertained the thought of suing the owner over MY stupidity.

I still have the finger (and it still works) but it took a bit of surgery to make it 'mine' again. This was a day when 'common sense' wasnt so common..... 8)

Rob


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## BAH101 (May 6, 2010)

Mr. Common Sense

Mr. Sense had been with us for many years.
No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such value lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early 
bird gets the worm and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable Parenting strategies 
(adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school 
for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Mr. Sense declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student; 
but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; 
and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense finally gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, 
she spilled a bit in her lap, and was awarded a huge financial settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; 
and his son, Reason.

He is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

If you still remember him, pass this on; if not, join the majority and do nothing.


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## rake60 (May 6, 2010)

Oh, I'll be passing that along!

Rick


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## rake60 (May 6, 2010)

It could be worse!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAIHeGHi5yM[/ame]

Rick


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## Blogwitch (May 7, 2010)

That isn't worse Rick, just normal reactions nowadays. 

Just wait until a 'modern day' workman's batteries run out in his portable screwdriver. The job stops until they are recharged again, because according to his thoughts, there is no other way of doing the job.

That is why the 'mexican wave' was invented at soccer matches, they are passing around the crowd's only brain cell, the one who ends up with it gets to think for a while, until the next wave starts.

Bogs


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