# Tooling for the Newbie



## MattMoore (Jul 1, 2008)

Afternoon all,
Being as I've just collected my new lathe and milling machine, the only thing I need to purchase is cutting tools and material ;D
I'll start with the lathe, I want to use indexable tooling to start with, until I've found my feet and I know what I need to achieve when grinding HSS myself.
I've had a look at the Glanze tooling but I'm not too sure whether to buy a set of 7 of singles.
Are all 7 used often enough to warrant them?
I've got enough tool holders for them all, but I dont want to buy thing I wont need to use.
It's the same story for the miller really, am I best to buy a set of differing sizes end mills and slot drills until I find out which ones I use most and replace them with the better versions?

Many thanks

Matt


----------



## Brass_Machine (Jul 1, 2008)

Matt,

I bought my first stuff in sets. It was cheaper than if I bought everthing as a single piece. I figured it would stink if I needed something and had to wait to get it.

Eric


----------



## DickDastardly40 (Jul 1, 2008)

Matt,

There is a school of thought that you start with HSS, grinding your bits by hand and learning what shape the tool needs to be before 'graduating' to inserts and the faster speeds/feeds that they allow.

I'm a pragmatist in most things except getting married therefore I would say go for what you think you want, just be aware of what you don't get.

To choose tooling I would look at what I want to make and what material it's going to be out of, for a set of lathe tools without exception I would pick:

RH Knife
LH Knife
Parting/grooving Tool
Round profile RCMT

Any others can really be done without IMHO if you have the above. Threading tools can come a bit later and I'd say HSS for those personally. As Eric said buying a set might be cheaper even if you don't use a particular tool ever.

Mill tooling may be a little more awkward as a lot is sized, to start I'd go for a fly cutter, perhaps a boring head so lots of different sized holes can be bored with one tool and a selection of HSS end mills up to the biggest size collet you have.

If you know you need a slot 3/8" wide remember that you can make that with a 1/4" endmill so you do not need a full fractional set similar to drills.

Tooling is the thing you'll likely spend the next most amount on after your machinery and the expense continues as you use it. Lay aside a budget for a bench grinder and if you do go to HSS you'll be surprised at how many times a piece of HSS will resharpen or reshape to a new tool. 

A good mill vice and clamping arrangements are a must.

Enough from me for now, I'm sure others will have good suggestions.

Al


----------



## Bogstandard (Jul 1, 2008)

Al,

I think I gave Matt everything on your list except the RH and LH tools, and I forgot to give him a few bit of HSS tool steel.

Matt,

As Al suggests, get a few bits of tool steel, I think you already have a grinder, and have a play about grinding up standard shapes of tooling. A quick search on the net will give you all the shapes you will ever desire, you can also combine shapes to give yourself specials. As I said in my PM to you, when you asked if I used all the tools in the set, yes I do, but some more than others.

Just have a good play about, no heavy cuts and no climb milling and you will soon see what you really need and what you don't. That little pile of milling cutters I gave you should all be OK until you get a bit more experience, then make your decisions a little later.

John


----------



## SignalFailure (Jul 1, 2008)

Hi Matt

I'm pretty new to this too and here's my experience;

My mini-lathe came with a set of brazed-on TCT tools but no instructions as to use - I managed to destroy two of them before long (!). I bought a Glanze indexable boring bar but find it flexes too much and the tip became chipped in use - I must be a bit heavy on tools eh? ;D

I bought a set of HSS tools and within no time was able to re-sharpen them and then in a short while grind new ones (or use the opposite ends!) from scratch. It really is pretty straightforward; here's a link you might find helpful...http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Tool_grinding/tool_grinding.htm

IMHO being able to grind a tool from scratch is very satisfying!


----------



## Mcgyver (Jul 1, 2008)

SignalFailure  said:
			
		

> I bought a set of HSS tools and within no time was able to re-sharpen them and then in a short while grind new ones (or use the opposite ends!) from scratch. It really is pretty straightforward



way to go Signal, I don't know where newbies get the idea it's difficult. its about as difficult as tying your shoe - once seemed formidable but you got past it right?  For so many reasons as has been discussed at length, hss is for most home shop jobs the right tool for the job. Its good to see newbies instead of the just the old dogs encouraging others to have a go.

Remember, until very recently, everyone who ever turned a lathe on a home went and ground a hss tool bit and never thought twice about it. Couple of pages of reading, 1/2 an hour at the grinder and you'll wonder why anyone every made a fuss of over it ;D


----------



## Twinsquirrel (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm a newbie too and I'd go with HSS blanks, as has already been said it sounds much more difficult than it really is plus you have the advantage of having a few tools already which will give you a rough idea of what the finished product should look like.

The great thing about working with HSS is that if you come across a situation where the tools in your box don't quite fit the job you just make some sparks on the grinder and "poof" you have the right tool for the job. 

David


----------



## tel (Jul 1, 2008)

I'm in agreement with the concensus here (must be coming down with something). jump in at the deep end with HSS. You'll save heaps of shekels during the learning curve.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Jul 26, 2008)

Mat:
 there are two schools of thought when it comes to HSS. Start with blanks and learn to grind them. 
I learned this way and agree. HSS is cheap versatile and give a great finish on hobby machines. after grinding stone/hone on an oil stone. It is not something I learned in tech school but it makes a world of difference. 

The second school of thought is start with a properly sharpened HSS bit and see how it is supposed to cut and then imitate the geometry.
I agree with this to a point. about 6 months ago I invested in a set of insert holders with HSS bits from Arthur Warner Co I have been very happy with there product Made in USA a family business and more than happy to deal with the hobbyist as well as the pro shops. The price is a bit steep but the set of cheap import insert holders I have were a waste of time and caused parts to be scraped. 

If the funds are available I would get a insert set or a profile tool from warner and learn to grind your own blanks a lot can be done with a box of a dozen blanks. 
If you get a Warner set you will see how nice a good sharp HSS bit will cut but you can not quite imitate the geometry on blanks.

PS not affiliated with The mentioned company just a satisfied customer and want to support American manufacturing as much as I can. 
As far as the mill pick up an inexpensive set of 3 fly cutters and the bits to go with them IMHO a import set works fine here If you can find afford an American made set so much the better. 
You will still need regular nill cutters for slotting and profiling. 
I find myself using the milll cutters I picked up here and there more than my set I do have a set and it is nice to have all the sizes covered if needed. 
Drills a #1-5 set of center drills and a 115 pc combo set of numbers letters and fractions. I use my drill set all the time maybe not every size but IMHO it is worth it not to go hunting for the right drill bit. I also have a coffee can if drill bits that I pick through from time to time. Like you said if you find yourself needing one size a lot or breaking one you can fill in the index as needed. Again USA is superior quality if it is in your budget. 
Tin


----------



## sanddancer (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi folks,

I too am newish to the site, but was trained with HSS as a youngster. One point that was always stressed by my instructor was to quench regularly when grinding HSS. At the time I didn't know why, but I found out the significance of this much later, as my education progressed. I hope that the more experienced machinists can confirm this, as it is a long, long time since I opened a technical book,

regards to all,

George


----------



## Tin Falcon (Jul 27, 2008)

I have heard some debate about the need to quench HSS. I learned the same thing ,keep it cool. Personally I hold with my fingers and quench when it starts to get to warm to hold. I do not like it when it starts to turn blue on me . The reason to keep it cool is the heat will temper or soften the edge. 
I have also heard that the better HHS will have a higher red hardness in other words will not soften with heat like a high carbon low allow steel. 
I picked up some 52100 for boring bars and such that is heat treatable and will soften /temper with heat. 
The keep the tool cool philosophy started in the days of hand forged carbon steel lathe and planer tools. And am not sure if it applies to modern HSS
When in doubt keep the tool cool 
A word of caution here for the carbide fans do not quench carbide if it gets hot it can fracture and break this also goes with coolant on the machine intermittent coolant on carbide can cause it to stress.
Tin


----------



## sanddancer (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi Tin,

if my memory serves me, (it doesn't very often) the reason for quenching it to keep the carbon steel below the critical temperature of 740C, so as long as there is above about 0.25% carbon the alloy will be softer if it passes that point, and is allowed to cool slowly. I remember having HSS cherry red & not quenching, but was just a kid, and would not have known the difference, as I just liked the sparks!! Now I have to pay for my own HSS I quench it! Oh, happy days, :big:

regards,

George


----------



## Kludge (Oct 7, 2008)

Just to add some "noise" here ... 

The Taig uses 1/4" tools for which I have HSS & Carbide. The Clisby uses 3/16" and I only have HSS tools. The various watchmaker's lathes use 1/8" and, again, I only have HSS. With all that, I have 1/4" and 1/8" HSS blanks. The carbide tools for the Taig are nice but I prefer to use HSS because I can make whatever I need from either existing tools or blanks. 

I don't have a big fancy grinder like most folks but rather have a couple 4" wheels that fit an adapter on one of the watchmaker's lathe motors (the one shown with the 8mm lathe elsewhere) but will be moved to a more accessible drive later on. But the point is that it doesn't take anything big and fancy to get the job done, just some common sense and "low peasant cunning" as my father used to say. (Safety falls under both, in case anyone wonders.) 

Just my tupence worth, subject to current market value.

BEst regards,

Kludge


----------



## macona (Oct 7, 2008)

You can grind HSS into the red and not have it loose its hardness. Only time I quench when grinding is when it gets too hot to hold!

Red hardness was one of the big selling points of HSS when it came out. They could turn at much higher speeds than old carbon steel.


----------



## dampy (Oct 7, 2008)

macona, sorry mate, I'm having difficulty on what you are trying to say, are you saying that you can grind HSS till the tool you are forming is a red colour due to heat build up? 

bill


----------



## mklotz (Oct 7, 2008)

dampy  said:
			
		

> macona, sorry mate, I'm having difficulty on what you are trying to say, are you saying that you can grind HSS till the tool you are forming is a red colour due to heat build up?



Supposedly one can but I've never had the cojones to go that far. I generally stop when the color changes.

Quenching is not a good idea since it can cause microcracks, or so I'm told.
I keep a copper bar next to the grinder and lay the tool on that when it becomes too hot to hold. After a short break to uncramp my fingers, the copper has absorbed enough heat to allow me to carry on.

The ideal is to save up your grinding jobs when possible. Then you can cycle tools between the grinding wheel and the heat sink allowing one to cool while you work on the other.


----------



## rake60 (Oct 7, 2008)

I've never had a problem with quenching HSS tool bits.
When they get too hot to hold onto I drop them in a tray of water I keep
next to the grinder and check to see if I have any fingerprints left on the
burnt fingers and thumb while it cools. 

If grinding a brazed carbide bit you have to keep it from heating up.
Too much heat can weaken the brazed bond that holds the carbide in place.

As Tin already stated here, thermal shock to any carbide is a death sentence 
to the tool or insert. It can cause it to shatter like glass.

When grinding HSS or carbide a dust mask is in order.
Airborn dust contains some pretty nasty stuff.

Cobalt is a known carcinogen.
Tantalum Carbide and Tungsten Carbide can cause permanent respiratory problems.

The dust masks are 15 cents each when you buy a case of them.
Looking fashionable wearing one... Priceless!  :big:

It's worth BOTH of those things!

Rick


----------



## dsquire (Oct 7, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> I've never had a problem with quenching HSS tool bits.
> When they get too hot to hold onto I drop them in a tray of water I keep
> next to the grinder and check to see if I have any fingerprints left on the
> burnt fingers and thumb while it cools.
> ...



To All

While the .15 cent mask is better than nothing you can do better.

Wear a .15 cent mask, paint a car blue or green. Now using a white napkin, blow your nose. Hack and cough and spit this into the other corner of the napkin. If you can't tell what colour you painted the car from this then you have better cheap masks than I have ever seen. On the other hand if you can see any colour on the napkin then you have not got a good enough mask. It would have let Cobalt, a known carcinogen, Tantalum Carbide and Tungsten Carbide which can cause permanent respiratory problems into your lungs.

We have no problem spending several thousand dollars for equipment and tools. Why do we have such a problem spending 50 or $75.00 on a piece of safety equipment that will allow us to live in good health so that we can use the equipment we spent our money on. What you should be using is a canister type face mask. They fit better and can be fitted with different types of filters for dust or chemicals.

 Don


----------



## steamer (Oct 7, 2008)

Building my boat I needed to paint the outside with Epoxy Barrier Coat.

The Pro's call this stuff "stink paint"!  Guess why?


I had on tyvek and a 3M organic cartridge respirator....usual precautions with epoxy and paint in the shed.

I was shleping about a gallon of this stuff on.  Miserable stuff.

I was about half way down the boat and a moth flew into the shed.  He immediately starting flying erratic.  15 feet into the 30 foot shed he fell out of the air and on to the ground...dead. Elaped time of exsposure....about 5 seconds.....

This with a large window fan on at full flow and the 8 wide doors of the shed open!

I stood there sounding like Darth Vader comfortably breathing through my respirator and said to myself

Self....Holy *(#$&^(@# !  Am I glad I bought this respirator!

Twenty minutes later, I started not feeling so good. My exposed skin was absorbing the vapors and it was making me sick.  I quit and left the area to get some fresh air. Never got a drop on my skin mind you...just the vapors!

I won't use the stuff anymore.  I find KILZ exterior latex primer works just fine in it's place.


BUY THE RESPIRATOR!

Dave


----------



## rake60 (Oct 7, 2008)

Well said Don!

I agree 100% 
But, how many will do it?

When I was 18 years old working at my very first machine shop, there was a 60
year old man there who was the company's form tool grinder.
He had a constant hack and would have his handkerchief crimson red with blood from
coughing into it all day, EVERY DAY.

I was horrified by it!

He told me: 
*"It's all part of the game kid. If you want to make the big bucks it
comes at a cost."*

*That's BULLSHIT!*

Safety and health are *NOT* for sale to the highest bidder any longer!

I can remember my Dad coming home from the coal mine construction he worked at
for most of his life with the only visible flesh tone color being around his eyes and
mouth and nose where his respirator fit.
Other guys on that crew didn't have those clear areas around their mouth and nose.
Ask them why they took the respirator off and they would all give the same answer.
*"The damn thing kept plugging up and I couldn't breath so I took it off!"*
Good Answer? ???

Rick


----------



## wareagle (Oct 7, 2008)

As far as I am concerned, those cheap paper dust masks are useless, and should be taken off of the market. I haven't every seen one that fits right, and certainly can't see any other uses for them. Too many folks over the years (my dear wife included) have worn those things thinking they were keeping themselves safe. Once taken off, the nostrils are covered in the substance that they were trying to avoid.

My wife was in our bathroom going at the shower with some sort of chemical, and she kept coming out saying she wasn't feeling good. I told her to get a respirator before she went back in (I offered to finish, her answer was no, but hell no). I went to check on her a short bit later and discovered her wearing a cheap paper dust mask. I asked her how it was working and she said she wasn't able to tell a difference. : I politely took her to the shop and fitted her to a cartridge respirator and told her to see if that did any better. It did.      Funny thing is, I never got that respirator back, but that's okay by me. She uses it religiously, and that's all I could have ever asked for!


For my $.02 on grinding tool bits... I avoid letting the tool bit get hot when grinding. I will quench the bit in water every few seconds or so. One thing to keep in mind is that the thinner the tool bit is, the less time it takes to heat up. As the others have said, I do not let them change colors and have yet to have any problems with a ground tool bit.


----------



## Cedge (Oct 7, 2008)

A good friend of mine works/worked for a company, here in town, as a heavy equipment mechanic. Part of his job was to prepare retiring equipment like trucks and cranes for sale. The company pre-sold several large items to a company that wanted them repainted and ready to work when the took delivery.

They specified a high tech multi part paint. When he got the order to begin prepping the machines, Doug pulled up an MSDS sheet on the paint and very much didn't like what he read. He protested to management about the safety issues and was bluntly told that his job depended on doing as he was told. 

Doug is a large strapping lad... the kind for which heavy mechanic work is very well suited. He had no health problems of any sort and often spent his day pulling wrenches and then put in a full shift keeping his farm going, with no ill effects. He's always been bull strong and a total outdoors sort who reveled in physical challenges.  

Doug also gives a damn about his people. Rather than have his crew paint the equipment, he took on the job himself, after hours when no one would be about. He asked for a closed breathing system and was told to use the respirator he normally used. He did so.... along with a Tyvec coverall. About an hour into the job he began to experience trouble breathing. By the time he managed to drive home, his lips were blue and his color ash gray.

He made it to the hospital where they discovered his lungs were blistered, much as if he'd been exposed to mustard gas. We almost lost Doug that night, except for some real heroics from a dedicated medical staff and lots of luck. He spent a week in intensive care and another week convalescing in bed at home.

The company accused him of gold bricking and began to rumble about letting him go. They denied the paint had caused his problems and hinted he had probably exposed himself to something at home while doing his farming chores. That all ended when he dragged himself to work the next day and promptly collapsed a lung while sitting across the desk from his boss. 

The damage to Doug's lungs is permanent, as is the numbness in his feet and hands. He is now required to carry an inhaler and has been told oxygen tanks are in his future. The company is now on the hook for some large dollars, none of which will restore a man to his former good health.

No job is worth the cost he paid and no supervisor worth his salt would have ever put him in such a position. Doug felt he had no choice, but rather than put his normal paint crew on the job, he took on the risk, personally. I kinda like having friends of that caliber, but I wish he'd have quit before he lost so much.

Bottom line... if the label says it's got nasty tendencies.... take it to the bank.... it might even be worse than they were forced to admit. All it takes is once.

Steve


----------



## macona (Oct 8, 2008)

Basically HSS retains it hardness up into it turning red from friction or cutting. Back in the days of carbon steel tooling if you got the tool anywhere close to red the tool would anneal itself into a piece of keystock. Thats one of the reasons you will that small lathes even up to the 30's did not have very high RPM spindles. There was no tooling that could handle the SFM that a fast machine would need. My old Artisan 12x24 has a top speed of about 600 RPM.

When HSS came on the market you started to see lathes with higher speed spindles, and after carbide came out there was a jump again in spindle speeds to the machines you see today.

I have never had an issue with quenching HSS. But I use so little of it. I tend to pick up inserts on ebay or swap meets for cheap.

My tool grinder has a built in vacuum system. I have been trying to figure a way to pipe that to my other machines as well.


----------

