# Making lathe from scratch and using mild steel plate? Why use cast iron?



## PeterA

Why are all lathes and mills made from cast iron?

Could I weld up a structure out of mild steel plate to use a a lathe base and frame? Then just face mill or fly cut the surfaces in a mill?

I think you would need to flame stress it right? So you weld it, machine it then flame de stress it. Then will it need to be machined again after the flame treatment?
If that is all that needs to be done, as opposed to using cast iron. I guess it is then possible to make a machine that would hold an okay tolerance then yes?

Any ideas how hot you have to get mild steel to stress relieve it? and for how long?

Peter


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## steamer

Welcome Peter,

Lots of good questions Peter.  The construction of a lathe can be done many ways. The best for our purposes is to use gray cast iron. It absorbs and dampens vibration the best.  Steel would be second.  I've designed lathes that have been made of other materials such as granite!.  We can wax poetic about the various ways, but for our shops, the first thing you need to answer is ....what is the problem we are trying to solve?
If your project is to make a lathe, by all means have at it.

If your project is to build a miniature engine....well...that's different.

In that case I would just buy one. The hundreds of hours you will spend building a lathe could be better spent learning to use it properly, and you'll get more enjoyment out of it. Additionally, at the cost of the Asian imports...I don't think you could make one as cheap as you could buy one.

OK.  So where ya from? What are your interests? We like to know something about the people we bring into our home.  If you could Peter, would you please post a quick post in the welcome thread and tell us about yourself. I know the members would very much appreciate it.

And again Welcome!  wEc1

Kind Regards,

Steamer


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## PeterA

Right, intro post done.

Well I'm thinking that I can get an old mill rather than a new one and it will be cheaper. Then I could use mild steel to weld up a lathe
frame and machine it out. Then use the linear ways for the X and Y axis etc. The idea is to get the most from your dollar.

Still don't know if I will have any funds to purchase anything as yet so I guess I'm in the dreaming/planning stage.

So many people say the chinese units are rubbish, I read this online. I spoke to a few engineering shops today and they
say that the ones from HAFCO www.hareandforbes.com.au here in Australia are not too bad. Good enough to machine items for press fits
etc.

Anyway, then I think why buy new when you can get some good old iron....
Then I think what if it is clapped out...
Then I think get either a good new mill or a good old mill and make a CNC lathe using the mill. 

Decisions decisions....


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## steamer

The question remains though


What is the problem you are trying to solve?  The answer to that will set your course.


Regards,

Dave


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## Davo J

Hi Peter,
I bought my 300 x 900mm lathe from Gasweld (toolex brand) and after looking at the H&F's range afterwords, they are not as good in the fit and finish. Saying that plenty of people own them and are happy with them.

You should be able to pick up a used lathe from around $400 up if you keep your eye out and ask around. This would be much better than almost any home made lathe.
Some guys get lathes given to them, but they are the lucky ones, the rest of us have to save up.

If you are around the Newcastle area you are welcome to drop in and talk tools and have a look first hand.

Dave


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## GeorgeGreek

Dear Peter,

am afraid that Steamer is right in general terms without going into the specifics, i.e. the make of the main shaft housing, the necessary special conical prestressed bearings,the lining up of it relative to the prism or whatever short of ways you would decide to make, the many lathe errors that make the difference between a lathe and a useless contraption. I believe that a medium quality Chinese lathe would be much better and definitelly much cheaper than anything one could make, unless one aims to a small model without any demand on accuracy and such. 

Have a nice time anyway,

George.


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## rleete

Where are you located? Plenty of machinists would love to show off their shops, and answer questions in person.


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## cfellows

As George and others have said, the chinese lathes out of the box are probably better than anything you can make unless you want to invest hundreds of hours. You can buy a Chinese lathe and with a little work, can make improvements to it and learn something about it at the same time. There are also a number of attachments you'll probably want to make such as quick change tool posts, carriate locks and carriage stops, etc. The popular 7 x 10 lathes have a nice size hole through the spindle which you will quickly come to appreciate. I have a Harbor Freight 7 x 10 and have turned it into a very nice, accurate lathe. I use it more than my Logan 11 x 24 these days. It comes with a variable speed, dual range, reversible drive. The modifications I made were to install tapered gibs on the carriage, tapered roller bearings and metal drive gear in the headstock, cam lever lock on the tailstock, and my own designed quick change tool post. I also made a couple of adjust tru chucks and now have less than .001" runout. I think paid about $350 at Harbor Freight about a year ago on sale and with a 20% off coupon. I might add, that the lathe was very useable out of the box and I was able to make the improvements at my leisure.

While the basic lathe is important, the tooling is of equal or greater importance. You'll likely need a number of different cutting tools such as boring bars of different sizes, thread cutting tools, cutoff and grooving tools, and a variety of facing and turning tools. You'll likely want several types of work holding chucks such as 3-jaw, 4-jaw, perhaps a collet chuck and set of collets, and maybe a faceplate. A vertical, adjustable vice is also handy for holding work and/or odd shaped cutting tools. For the tailstock, you'll need a fixed center, perhaps a ball-bearing center, and a drill chuck. Ideally the tailstock should have a morse taper socket, with #2 being one of the more popular sizes. 

Building a lathe has always sounded appealing to me, but in the end, buying a commercial lathe has been the better decision, at least for me.

Chuck


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## PeterA

I'm in Australia, Qld, Toowoomba.

Yes I had wondered about the alignment between the bed and the headstock etc. Next question. How accurate is a face mill or fly cut to get
the surfaces square? Would it need to be then surface ground?

The head stock you would weld up, machine the bottom and even surface grind it? Then even get the head stock spindle hole cylindrically ground. Then
you would put in some high precision bearings to reduce the run out etc.

No that it can not be done, but I can see the implications everyone is saying. Here is a machine that was built with mild steel welded plates. 
Looks pretty cool. 

Video: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1IDHIcyHLY[/ame]
Build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/51688-slant_bed_cnc_lathe_scratch.html

So it can be done. I wonder what the accuracy on it is. I might have to read through the thread again.


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## John Hill

There is aYahoo group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/?yguid=473405516 related to making concrete machine tools.

I dont know how practical or useful the idea might be but does have some appeal. I presume a lightweight welded steel structure would be more rigid when filled with concrete, I got plenty of advice about stability of concrete when I built my concrete machine bench both dire warnings and other advice that indicated whatever changes there might be would be beyond by ability to even measure them.

As for aligning the spindle to the ways, I expect there is some ancient and recognised procedure for doing this. Just thinking for a moment, maybe you could start with a small diameter spindle set up as accurate as possible then use that to turn a test bar adjusting until the alignment is right then using that same spindle to enlarge the holes to take the bearings, food for thought there?


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## ShedBoy

I have a hafco lathe and it is accurate as. I looked at the toolex site and all the parts look the same, gear levers, tailstock headstock ets but back to the question in hand anything is possible but I reckon a lathe built your way will cost a lot more than buying one. You still need to buy alot of parts that will need to be turned by someone on a lathe. I would buy one then make one as a project, this way you won't have to pay for turned parts, unless you can borrow a machine. Make sure you post the progress, I would like to see how it turns out.

http://www.shawmachinery.com.au/UsedEquipment.html#Lathes

Brock


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## barney_leadhead

There is a book "Building A Small Lathe' by L.C.Mason (TEE Publishing reprint) which is very useful for ideas on building a lathe and it uses lots of stock materials for the main components; however you still need access to a lathe to machine a lot of the parts that Mr. Mason describes and his design may well be too small for what you are planning.
Despite this the book is a thoroughly good read and is full of hints and techniques that may help guide you should you pursue the home construction route for your machine.

Again whilst small the Peatol/Taig lathe uses an aluminium/aluminum extrusion filled with concrete for stability that carries the ground bed.

Whilst on a very small scale the Fonly lathe uses a mini-drill to produce a lathe capable of high accuracy; given your lateral thinking the idea could be adapted and scaled up then used to produce the components for the lathe you want to build.
Just Google 'fonly lathe' for full details on the 2mm Association site.


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## steamer

That slant bed is pretty cool!  and I bet a LOT of work.

But....if it solves the problem before you..it's perfect!

Dave


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## ShedBoy

I was trying to design a small CNC lathe one day and tried linear bearings for ways. Hardened round shafts and plates tacked together to bore all the important holes (spindle and ways) then seperate them and slide them on the shaft to where they are needed. Linear bearings are quite cheap through ebay from China. Don't now how accurate they are though. Doodling a shaper at the moment using fully supported linear shafts for the sliding bit. I recall seeing a website on the net of a chap in Queensland who had built his own lathe with linear slides, and they are used alot in CNC machines today. They are in use on that machine you posted the video of (that is what reminded me of my previous idea.
Brock


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## Entropy455

For marine vessels, its a common practice to fabricate machine components/foundations out of plate steel. When close dimensional tolerances are required, the components are typically stress-relieved prior to machining, at 1150 degrees F for several hours, then slow cooled.

If very tight tolerances are desired, the fabricated components are stress relieved, then rough-cut to near final dimensions, then stress relieved again, then machined to final tolerances.

If you weld a lathe bed together from steel plate, and machine it without prior stress relieving, youll have significant and unsatisfactory creep during the machining operations. The bed will not hold true. The results will be completely unsatisfactory. However if you properly stress relieve, you can obtain a nice lathe bed.

The next question becomes how to harden the ways. Mild steel cannot be appreciably hardened  theres not enough carbon. It is too soft, and the ways will eat themselves after a few months of use. I suppose it would be possible to weld in some high-carbon steel to form the ways, stress relieve the assembly, machine it, then induction harden the ways, and then grind them.

Its a whole lot of work  which is likely why the preferred method for lathe construction is to cast the bed out of a heat-treatable iron.

FWIW  theres a foundry out in Washington State that does almost daily pours of ASTM-A536 nodular iron. This stuff is tough, strong, heat-treatable, and is reasonably priced. About one dollar per pound, the last time I checked. The pattern making fees can be a lot, if you have a complex casting  like an engine block with lots of internal passages. Nonetheless, the cost to have a lathe bed custom cast by a professional foundry is not as expensive as most people would think.

The down side is that it takes VERY large equipment to properly machine, induction harden, and grind the ways, on anything but the smallest of lathes  which is why I purchase my machines instead of making them from scratch.


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## PeterA

Okay 1150 F is 621 degrees Celcius.
I reckon I can get that with a few bottles of propane gas, yeah? Make up a bit of an oven and cook it for a few hours. Should be easy enough.

For the ways, I'd just bolt down and shim some hiwin type square block type ways????


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## Entropy455

The trick to stress relieving is maintaining the entire work piece at an elevated and uniform temperature, for several hours (12 hours is pretty standard). The heat causes the lattice structure of the steel to slip in a slow and controlled fashion, which is the mode of stress relieving.

It will be very difficult to maintain a uniform 1150 degrees F for 12 hours, with a propane torch. Youll need an oven  and not the kind you cook with. Youll need an industrial oven. Trying to maintain 1150 degrees in a home cooking range is dangerous to say the least. Im pretty sure most ranges have a thermal safety device that prevents sustained operation at high temperatures. Another option is to use a pottery kiln, however most pottery kilns have difficulty maintaining steady heat at lower temperatures.

General stress relieving rules: never place the work piece in an oven hotter than 500 degrees F. Maximum rate of temperature rise is not to exceed 100 degrees F per hour. Cool down is limited to the same rate. Do not remove from oven until work piece is 500 degrees F or less. Always convection cool. Never force cool. Important note: the rate of temperature rise is based on the core temperature of the steel being stress relieved  not the oven temperature.

Im not trying to discourage you. But you should know that rapidly heating up the piece to a dull red for a few minutes will not stress relieve the component. If anything, the high temperature gradient will further increase stresses. Proper stress relieving is a SLOW and controlled process, requiring precise temperature controls.

If you are serious about it, I recommend finding someone with a pottery kiln large enough to accept your work piece. Or take it to a heat-treating shop, and pay a few bucks to have it done right. Dont try and use a torch.


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## PeterA

Yeah I was thinking of the pottery guys, there is a large mod that have a pretty big kiln they use to make pavers and fire bricks etc.

I will have to phone around and ask them.

I should ask the specialists too how much to properly stress relieve.

I should ask the foundry up town how much they can cast me a block iron for. I have heard they do one offs.

If I got them to make me a solid chunk of cast iron, then I machine it. Will machining it cause to twist and buckle? meaning I'd have
to get it flame treated anyway?


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## Entropy455

Hardening the ways only affects the iron near the very surface. The bulk of the casting remains unaffected by the heat treating process  thus distortion is minimal.

If you are having them make you a casting, then have them make you a casting. Simple molds are not that expensive, and there is no need to pay for material that you intend to machine away anyways.

Iron castings are normally fully stress relieved at the foundry, and undergo some sort of minimal inspections  visual inspections at the least. Depending on the contract, castings can also be MT inspected, UT inspected, and/or RT inspected. Normally the extra NDT is reserved for high-reliability castings only. Quality foundries will not give you a junk casting - theyve got a reputation to maintain.

Even though the castings are stress relieved at the foundry, they can still creep if you hog out a lot of material. For example, if you machine a lathe bed from a sold chunk of iron, youll likely want to approach the final dimensions, and then re-stress relieve prior to machining for final dimensions.

If you cast it close to final dimensions, youll likely be just fine with the foundry stress relief  as is typically done within the industry.

Note: you will NOT be saving money on this project. It will most certainly be cheaper for you to purchase a complete lathe, then to build your own.


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## PeterA

Yeah the more I think about it just getting bought lathe seems like the more sensible idea.


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## Entropy455

It will be cheaper for me to purchase a lawnmower engine, than to build a hit-and-miss engine from scratch. Purchasing an engine would also save me a significant amount of time. Nonetheless, Im still in the process of building a hit-and-miss engine from scratch.

If your interest is in constructing a cool metal lathe from scratch, then go for it. Just make sure that youre building it for the hobby aspect, and not the money saving aspect.

And its not a bad idea. . . .


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## PeterA

I think they say it is about the journey not the destination, hey...


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## steamer

PeterA  said:
			
		

> I think they say it is about the journey not the destination, hey...



Yes it certainly is!







I made this mill from scrap about 20+ years ago...It's got 4" tube for the column welded to 1" plate for the base welded by a friend at work. The tube was then filled with hydraulic cement and tension rods in the form of 3/8-16 threaded rods put in.  I shimmed the cross slide table after the fact.
The spindle was from a clapped out Sherline lathe. The vertical slide came from a Warner Swasey #5 turret lathe boring attachment that had the foot broken off. I had the broken part machined flat at the local trade school...I did the rest myself with a Dunlop 109 lathe....It worked within it's limitations, made some of my boat engine parts with it too!

It can be done.

Can you weld?

If you stiffen the structure, coat the inside with greast and use hydraulic cement as it expands slightly when it cures.  It will add a lot of mass and stiffness to the structure as well as a good bit of damping.  I mixed up the cement in the kitchen of my apartment....make sure you put the newspapers down first.

Dave


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## PeterA

I was thinking using say 19-20mm plate (3/4") thick. Make a big webbed base section and fill with epoxy resin and sand/pebble mix.


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## Tin Falcon

> I think they say it is about the journey not the destination, hey...




I also tell folks the Home hobby machine shop is like a college or university lab. No mistakes
 just learning experiences. You also get to pick the projects and the course material cool huh. 

Many small lathes have been built over the years. for various uses. Various fabrication methods have been used. 
research what has been done places like http://www.archive.org/ and lathes.uk
read this article. http://machineshop.olin.edu/resources/documents/Prison%20Camp%20Lathe.pdf
and remember most lathes were designed for production . sometimes a one of concept build is a bit different. 
If one of you hobby goals is to have a lathe you built yourself. And or learn how to build machine tools go for it man. 
Tin 
I have pondered casting a lathe base from polyester or epoxy filled either iron powder or fine crushed granite and have a light steel skeleton embedded in it .Uses steel fro ways. etc.


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## steamer

Many are made that way Tin....

www.nanotechsys.com

Dave


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## Swede

Not much more to add other than that the cost of the materials alone would take you into the used Chinese lathe regime.

Making an advanced tool like this is both a lot of fun but also a fairly advanced project, and doing it usually requires one to have the tool in question already just to make the parts. In other words, one would need a lathe and a mill to make a lathe, or a mill. Not always, but 99% of the time.

Guy Lautard wrote in one of his "Bedside Reader" books about some British POWs who made a lathe from scratch with hand tools and a lot of scraping. It's inspiring to anybody interested in the process.

Light machine tools can also be made by combining heavy structural aluminum extrusions and recirculating linear slideways, like the THK SHS series of linear trucks. My CNC mill build along those lines: http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm

Whatever you do, enjoy! Good luck.


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## bob ward

PeterA  said:
			
		

> Why are all lathes and mills made from cast iron?



Casting is a very cost effective way for industry to produce the heavy rigid & complicated metal shapes that are required for lathes and mills, once the patterns are made, a mould can be prepped and poured in 30 minutes or so. 

Compare that to the many hours required to cut the necessary shapes from steel plate then weld them all together.

You can definitely weld up a steel lathe or a mill that will work, but unless you have access to suitable free steel and machining, do some costings before you jump in.


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## ttrikalin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Many are made that way Tin....
> www.nanotechsys.com
> Dave



This reads to me like the ... encabulator thingy

http://www.nanotechsys.com/machines/nanotech-350fg-freeform-generator/


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## steamer

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> This reads to me like the ... encabulator thingy
> 
> http://www.nanotechsys.com/machines/nanotech-350fg-freeform-generator/



I can assure you its not
check out the drum lathe.  I might know a bit about that....

Dave


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## vedoula

Oh, I do see its for real... I just have too many unknown words... 

tom in MA 
(from anastasia's account)


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## Robsmith

Didn't Tubal Cain write some books about building a lathe from scrap; then other books about making a mill with the lathe and so on !
Or was it Dave Gingery ?


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## Rocketcaver

Dave Gingery.


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## SmithDoor

Yes you can build a lathe from mild steel. I have but the size was 72" swing and 20" CC. It was made to make wood and al patterns and fit in the shop. After all that just buy one new or used unless you just doing for the fun only

Dave

Photo at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendmanual/photos/album/547955360/pic/list




PeterA said:


> Why are all lathes and mills made from cast iron?
> 
> Could I weld up a structure out of mild steel plate to use a a lathe base and frame? Then just face mill or fly cut the surfaces in a mill?
> 
> I think you would need to flame stress it right? So you weld it, machine it then flame de stress it. Then will it need to be machined again after the flame treatment?
> If that is all that needs to be done, as opposed to using cast iron. I guess it is then possible to make a machine that would hold an okay tolerance then yes?
> 
> Any ideas how hot you have to get mild steel to stress relieve it? and for how long?
> 
> Peter


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## goldstar31

Robsmith said:


> Didn't Tubal Cain write some books about building a lathe from scrap; then other books about making a mill with the lathe and so on !
> Or was it Dave Gingery ?


 
Martin Cleeve certainly did in Model Engineer whilst L C Mason wrote a book 'Building the Small Lathe' \both were from steel.

Regarding the mill, Ned Westbury built a mill from his own castings which were sold by Woking Precision Models. I built one from castings done in my local college apart from the head . the column was a solid steel bar.

Then Ivan Law and Arnold Throp made the Dore Westbury whichh was a vast improvement. Professor Dennis Chaddock made one and designed his Quorn tool and cutter grinder to do up the homemade tools for it.

As an alternative to the Quorn( which I built as well) there was and is a Stent tool and cutter grinder( from Blackgates) but mine is entirely fabricated from welded steel sections( no, I didn't do it)


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## bazmak

Hi I would not even consider making a lathe from scratch,fabricated from steel.I have just bought a sieg 7 x 16 and almost finished all the mods. A seriously accurate piece of kit for $1000.SEE MY THREAD DIARY OF A SIEG LATHE Next cheaper option would be a cheap 2nd hand lathe maybe in need of repair.
Far more interesting and you would have all the main parts in cast iron to refurb or modify Strip it down refurb and paint job satisfaction
Regards Bazmak


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## Omnimill

I have wondered about making a miniature lathe myself. Ground flat stock is available in sizes big enough for a small Lathe so I'd use that for the bed together with ballscrews, linear guides and ground gear racks. It's a nice idea but finding the time is the biggest problem!


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## Tin Falcon

To build a lathe  is one of those horse cart chicken egg dilemmas in this hobby . 

When I was young and a dreamer and wanting to get started in the metal working hobby I read the gingerly books and dreamed of making my own lathe. It is doable and as worthy a project as building a complex steam engine. I then had the opportunity to learn machining on real tools USAF paid for by Uncle Sam. I ended up with a small seig 7x10 for a first machine I would have gone 9x 19 if I had the money at the time. 

So it comes down to what  machining knowledge you have and how you want to gain it. also do you spend time and money building a lathe . or do you buy a lathe and spend the time learning to use it and building engines. 
I have spent way more time building and fussing with CNC conversions than making engines the last several years.
The right answers is the one that each person makes.  

If you want to make a lathe google Japanese prison lathe IMHO a must read. for all
Tin


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## gus

1984.Attended a CNC machine course.That is how to programme CNC lathe,Set up the tools,tool off set etc etc. The course started off teaching us how the lathes are inspected and tested for alignment. Head stock--------tail stock alignment. Test shaft in between centres to test parallelism.Diameter check at head stock and tail stock. Difference should read in very minute microns.I was also told al lathe beds are not flat but minutely convexed. I am not aware if the Chinese mini lathes comes with an Inspection Certificate giving vital readings.May I guess Myford Lathes would leave factory with inspection report giving vital alignment readings.

If one wants to make his own lathe,he must convince himself if he can turn a test shaft with diameter difference of both ends within microns or thous.That is how many thous.

Bought two lathes from our neighbour------Leblond Lathe Plant,Singapore. True enough .I was invited to witness vital inspection readings. The Scrapers did a fine job scrape fitting the slides,
Head stock alignment and levelling and the tail stock alignment.

To build your own lathe to perfection or at least to conventional standards will take too long.
How many of us can scrape fit to mating surface to 80---90% contact?
The bed will require a long planer. Machineshops with planers are usualiy booked for long periods. How about the bed way grinding??
I have respect for the pioneers who build lathes and spent years to perfect their skills.

Just my two cents worth!!!


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## Cogsy

Tin Falcon said:


> If you want to make a lathe google Japanese prison lathe IMHO a must read. for all
> Tin


 
What an amazing read. Made me think of 'Hogans Heroes'. Maybe that show wasn't as far fetched as I assumed. Radios concealed in chair legs and precision machines built from scrap. Awesome.


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## n4zou

Build it using concrete. 
*Rediscover Lost Knowledge &#8211; The Concrete Lathe*


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## Niceonetidy

n4zou said:


> Build it using concrete.
> *Rediscover Lost Knowledge  The Concrete Lathe*



I know a company that made a lathe from granite, and used air bearings running on the granite, the tooling was diamonds for precision machining, very good method,


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## dman

the bed has to be pretty rigid. a weld up frame might be doable but would be better if filled with concrete, at that point you may as well make it from concrete and save some welding. i can see a few ways of that working and maybe you can just use minimal steel and welding. depends on what you want to buy, what you want to make and what you want to salvage. if you get a decent surface plate you can make precision ways by hand scraping. look up mullernicks youtube channel. i imagine you can fix metal slideways to the concrete with epoxy or you can purchase linear bearings. you need to decide what yo use for a spindle but i will say many modern cnc machines have alignment adjustments on the spindle. the whole head is a seperate casting and it can be turned slightly to help make things square. i'd probably use cast iron on the slideways so they can be scraped into alighment, i'd make box ways rather than dovetails for ease or perhaps i'd have cast iron or mild steal pads that can be scraped into a perfect plain for a perfect surface to mount linear bearings to.


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## wildun

Most of us who have considered building a lathe have also considered using all these alternative materials and of course they can be done. As someone has already mentioned, can it be done without already possessing a lathe or having easy access to one? 
I once considered using large 'free cutting" (leaded) mild steel  square material which I guess is still obtainable, - it seems to have similar "dead" and stable qualities as Cast Iron and it is easy weldable, as opposed to cast iron.
Also I considered building it out of SG Iron (if obtainable in large enough stock) and bolting and dowelling it together!
Usually what happens is that most of us just end up buying a good secondhand 'normal' lathe and modifying or adding to it to suit ourselves and getting on with it - you can sell it much more easily too!
*N4ZOU*, who is the manufacturer of the lathe in the picture you posted in  another thread,  ie. the one on the Boeing mobile cabinet? - it is almost identical to the one I just sold last year in order to move into a smaller home. 
Mine was badged "Husky" made in Taiwan (circa 1980). It was a very accurate little 6" lathe - it wasn't perfect by any means especially in the headstock seal area, but I have regretted allowing myself to lose it ever since!


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## boxcarmj

http://www.lathes.co.uk/elffers/
Mike.


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## Tin Falcon

mike nice home built lathe. interesting though the origial poster that stated the thread has not signed on hear in over a year. wonder if he purchased a lathe built one or moved to a different hobby.
tin


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## Wizard69

I'm a new member here and just finished reading this entire thread.    I'm not sure if the thread starter ever did build the lathe but I'm rather shocked at the discouragement posted in this thread.    Most of the members posting here are focused on model engines which by enlarge are often more complex than a lathe.   I say that due to part of my career being focused on supporting many small CNC lathes at a manufacture.  

Now I would agree that one shouldn't do it to save money though that isn't an impossibility.   One should do something like this for the same reason that people build model engines which is because the have an interest to do so.   

One shouldn't engage in such a project without a clear understanding of what's involved though, just like you don't build a model engine without first understanding the workings.     However lathes are very simple machines and there are very well documented approaches to building such a machine.  Will you beat a cheap Chinese import on costs, probably not initially but you might after rebuilding that Chinese machine into a working tool.   You can certainly do a CNC effort at a reasonable cost DIY.   No matter what you build you will learn a lot, expand your skills and gain a new tool.   I might advise against welded steel plate for example but that shouldn't imply poo pooing the whole concept.

I guess what I find perplexing in this thread is that this is a forum dedicated to building complex machines that finds building a simple machine to be an outlandish adventure.    Makes no sense.    Pursue your dreams if it is a hit and mis, gas turbine or a lathe.


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## Wizard69

boxcarmj said:


> http://www.lathes.co.uk/elffers/
> Mike.



Nice!

I attended NAMES a few years ago and remember a scale model of a Hardinge HLV.    Unfortunately I can't remember the gentleman's name but he Did one heck of a job on a fully functional model.   It was scaled to the size that it would compete with watch makers lathes but it just highlights a range of possibilities here and that such projects are doable.


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## Entropy455

I am one of the guys discouraging home lathe construction.

The typical hobbyist on these forums likely operates his lathe in excess of 100 hours, for every hour of respective model engine run-time.

Point being - unless one can properly harden & grind the ways, the lathe is going to have a short working life &#8211; even a small bench-top lathe. . . .


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## Tin Falcon

Personally : I think the real issue here is time. If someone wants to spend the time to build a lathe it can be done . But with a little shopping one can find a suitable lathe for a few hundred dollars . can a lathe be built cheaper than buying one maybe maybe not . add the labor value doubfull. 

but like I said earlier if that is the branch of home engineering you choose why not we build engines for fun why not a lathe. 
Tin


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## Wizard69

Entropy455 said:


> I am one of the guys discouraging home lathe construction.
> 
> The typical hobbyist on these forums likely operates his lathe in excess of 100 hours, for every hour of respective model engine run-time.


I don't dispute that, in fact it sorta supports my position.   People spend far more time building their model engines than it would take to build a lathe.  


> Point being - unless one can properly harden & grind the ways, the lathe is going to have a short working life  even a small bench-top lathe. . . .


Well this is highly debatable and depends upon many factors including just how the lathe is designed.  

But let's consider the issue of the ways.  Lets say you do need to have them ground, what is the difference between taking your custom machine to a machine rebuilder for a grind or a person rebuilding an existing lathe that needs a bed reground?    People doing engine builds often buy casting kits because they aren't interested in casting themselves and nobody blinks an eye.   Like wise friends are often engaged to handle operations a builder might not have tools for.  

I would totally agree that a DIY lathe is a terrible idea if the reason is solely to try to save money.   It is very hard to compete right now with the low end Chinese iron even if you need to rework it upon arrival.   However trying to save money isn't the only reason to build your own machine as it can be an educational endeavor in and of itself or a person simply might be interested in the technology.  

The discussion becomes far more interesting when the design is not run of the mill or a CNC effort.   Here I believe you can save money and get better results going the DIY route.   At least for a lathe you can, as most low cost commercial CNC efforts seem to be focused on milling machines. 

So in the end I believe if done for the right reasons why not?    I've read enough model engineering magazines over the years to realize that hobbyist build far more complex machines to aid in the manufacture of their engines.   There are more that a few tool grinders and cam grinders out there that make the average lathe look simple.


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## Wizard69

Yes these are the reasons, for fun or the educational value.   The economics of doing so is of course highly debatable.  Just like building an engine based on centuries old technology is not wise if you simply need an engine. 

I follow some of the Gingery sites and frankly these guys are building their machines with eyes wide open.   They realize that the expense of the build process means that they won't save money on their lathe build.  However that isn't why most pursue Gingery builds.   It is more about the learning process than about the finished lathe.    That being said you can build a Gingery mill and end up with a machine that really has no analogue in the commercial market.  Or you can build a shaper that can only be had used these days.  



Tin Falcon said:


> Personally : I think the real issue here is time. If someone wants to spend the time to build a lathe it can be done . But with a little shopping one can find a suitable lathe for a few hundred dollars . can a lathe be built cheaper than buying one maybe maybe not . add the labor value doubfull.


If one acknowledges this reality then they are apparently going into the project with open eyes.   If so why not?    


> but like I said earlier if that is the branch of home engineering you choose why not we build engines for fun why not a lathe.
> Tin


Exactly!    I would not suggest a DIY lathe is a good idea for everybody, but if your interests lay in that area and you understand the realities, I say have a good time.  Considering how many tools and fixtures get built to support a hobbyist shop, a lathe shouldn't be looked upon as excessive.  Especially in the smaller sizes.


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## goldstar31

I thought that people would know L.C Mason who wrote books on building miniature steam engines but seemingly not. So he also published a book called 'Building a Small Lathe'

I seem to have  owned the book at one time and   recalling  that this was constructed from steel. 

But having said that, I suspect that some of the Holzapffel lathes had wood beds.
Again, somewhere in Model Engineer that someone built a lathe from concrete.
For those who have heard of the early Unimats, they had steel bed bars in zinc alloy castings-- and they are still about.

At this juncture ,the surface is barely scratched- because I have a brass one!


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## blighty

wheres that can of worms........ i've just started getting the bits together for a home built lathe and the main "lathe" bit is made from Granite.


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## aarggh

I don't think (at this stage anyway) I would want to build a lathe, but I can certainly understand others wanting to. And the mention of cost savings come up quite a bit, but I think that quite often people simply use that as a crutch to more or less justify the activity in the presense of others, even though they know it's most likely going to uneconomical. My mates at work think i'm completely and utterly mad doing many of the things I do, but I enjoy it, and at the same time, I can't fathom how they spend 4 years building a Linux based control system for their cars! Or spend $1000's replacing a perfectly good engine with another larger engine to get that little bit extra horsepower, on our congested roads!

Horses for courses. Whatever floats your boat, and however you have to justify it, fine! I'm just glad I've managed to wear down my wife (took me many, many years), to the point so I don't have to justify anything for the sake of it, so long as it doesn't impact bills or shopping, it's okay.

Oddly enough, one thing that has little use nowadays, that I would really, really love to buy or build, is a shaper! I'd be absolutely stoked if I had one, I just love the whole concept of them, but many would consider that bizarre! My wife however would just roll her eyes!

cheers, Ian


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## ZipSnipe

Well I didn't build my own lathe but I did build my own milling machine and by the time I was finished I spent $700.  This was at a time I could have went to Harbor Freight and picked up a Mini Mill for $400.  Also as soon as I was finished there was a deal for an rf 30 mill drill $200. So yeah had aI waited a lil and looked around I would have found a deal or two.

The two reasons why I built my own was economics and therapy. Therapy being the main reason.   If I could do it over, I would have bought a Mini Mill

Now I am dropping another $500 into it but it will make the machine well worth it.

If you need the therapy go ahead and build ya a lathe.  But honestly I would hunt for deal somewhere, auctions , garage sales.  Speaking of garage sales, right after I bought my 9x20 chinese lathe for $500. I stopped by a garage sale that had a Atlas 9x30 lathe, with the works for tooling ,milling attachment, quick change tool post etc.  all in pristine cond. and all for $300, needless to say I cried when I got home.


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## Traian Dumbrava

Hi everyone  maybe not the right post here,but need some to give me a quick help regarding about grey cast iron 250 grade or ductile cast iron 500-7(sg). 
My intention to build my own milling machine and I'm in stage to build the head for it but not sure what of the top cast iron to use. Any help? THANKS


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## Robsmith

G'Day Pete,
                     I'm in NSW and about 20 years ago I bought a "SMITHY  CB-1239 XL   Lathe-Mill-Drill"     Imported from Anne Arbour  Michigan USA.    It was very reasonable priced, three in one that wouldn't take up much space  ( about 6 feet long)  and Good ole USA American made quality.    Imagine my horror when the giant crate arrived with  MADE IN CHINA  stamped all over it.    ha ha .     Well after 20 years of use it has a little wear.  all which is repairable.   So I reckon that if you went the Hare and Forbes way … you won't go wrong.  I've looked at them and they are a slightly better quality and finish than my "smithy" plus technology is up there as well.        Just my 2-bobs worth.


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## Ironmanaz

I recall   reading about the world's largest engine lathe maybe 40 years ago.  It was a steel weldment. bolted together for transport on 6 semis,
They moved it to powerplants for overhauls to turn the 50 ton rotors. The design allowed placing metal exactly where needed,and it was very
stiff.


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## SmithDoor

You at one it was cheaper to use cast iron. Some types tools like shears and brakes have been manufacturer for 100 years.
The mache tools (lathes & Mills)  I saw was in the 1970's made to look like castings.

I think for holding back steel is cost of making look like castings.
The will look different want the manufacturers dope the casting look.

Cast iron and concrete is same for ridges. Steel is about 2 1/2 x more ridge (modulus of Elasticity of cast iron is 11,600 {note some high grade cast iron will go to 19,00 not what use in machine tools} and steel is 29,600 )


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## TSutrina

n4zou said:


> Build it using concrete.
> *Rediscover Lost Knowledge &#8211; The Concrete Lathe*


The design use to be on www.makeprojects.com    concretelathe   Which is founded on lathes built during WWI when cast iron was not available.  Machinery June 1916 page 877 - 879.  Patent 1154155  Yoemans, the stiffness of the design is lowered since the  concrete is at the ends supporting the ways which are pipe.  

I suggest looking at the lathes others have built.  https://www.vintageprojects.com/lathe-milling-plans.html
The Turret and Hobby lathe are good choices for starting point.  Another site with a concrete Milling machine on the list is: 
http://packratworkshop.com/lib13.htm


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## threesixesinarow

Traian Dumbrava said:


> Hi everyone  maybe not the right post here,but need some to give me a quick help regarding about grey cast iron 250 grade or ductile cast iron 500-7(sg).
> My intention to build my own milling machine and I'm in stage to build the head for it but not sure what of the top cast iron to use. Any help? THANKS



What kind of machine?

On my little, non-model, bed-type mill (and sometimes-lathe) the major parts are just gray cast iron, but it’s really little! Like 4” x 3” x 2” travels, so forces and overhanging distances are very small, and more weight from extra material at weak points isn’t really a problem. That is, I guess, until I want to move it.

- Clark


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## john_k

Good day,

I understand that both cast iron and concrete have the desirable attribute of damping out vibration. In the 1970's George Fischer - a Swiss company making state of the art CNC production lathes were using concrete beds to exploit  this characteristic. As far as strength vis a vis steel - just make it a bit thicker.


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## TSutrina

I actually covered lathes from hundred Horsepower to down to jeweler's lathes with the web site and patents provided above.  

 "I suggest looking at the lathes others have built.    https://www.vintageprojects.com/lathe-milling-plans.html
The Turret and Hobby lathe are good choices for starting point. Another site with a concrete Milling machine on the list is:
http://packratworkshop.com/lib13.htm  "

I suspect no one looked at the options provided.  I opened those sites today.   The both the sites list designs of lathes, and milling machine that are bench top and smaller sizes.  Concrete is used for a lathe (6 inch turret lathe) on the vintage site and a mill on the packrat site.   V. J. Romig design one of each and many others including a 6 inch powered all metal shaper Nov. 1928 Popular Mechanics  where Walters turned it into a horizontal mill, and turn the concrete horizontal mill into a shaper.   All steel lathes are provided on the vintageproject site.   These all come from magazines like Popular Science and Mechanics.    I have found that these magazines published shapers also, both hand and powered.   April 1959 Popular Mechanics has a small bolt together lathe from bar stock.    "A metal turning lathe for Model makers" by W. R. Bell is from an earlier article, all metal, article is yellowed.  "Hand shaper for your shop" by S. S. Miller in Oct 1955  didn't have the magazine at the bottom.


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## SmithDoor

I have used concrete in round Mill tube .
It works great for milling steel on lite weight Mill.

I have posted in photos in the down section

Dave



john_k said:


> Good day,
> 
> I understand that both cast iron and concrete have the desirable attribute of damping out vibration. In the 1970's George Fischer - a Swiss company making state of the art CNC production lathes were using concrete beds to exploit  this characteristic. As far as strength vis a vis steel - just make it a bit thicker.


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## jackary

You could build this from Cast Iron and Mild Steel sections.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/stepperhead/
Alan


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## Wizard69

For DIY with simple tools I really think the way to go is with cast composites.   That is epoxy granites.  The material still requires the use of steel for thread inserts, exoskeletons or in other areas where the qualities of steel can be leveraged.   There is a massive thread over on CNCZone that goes into the “mix”.  

why consider epoxy granites?   The primary reasons are to avoid foundry work or the cycle of heat treating and machining steel weldments.   Plus done right you put a bit of mass in the lathe bed right where it is needed.   Produce a decent bed and you could even put a commercial head stock on it like a Sherline.  

by the way the mention of Sherline is important here as feasibility goes down as lathe size increases.   Consider a large lathe build requires proper shop equipment just to handle it.  That means cranes or other material handling equipment.  So in the context of a DIY project in a home shop the size of the lathe is a big factor considering such a build.  

this is an old thread and I can’t remember if it was mentioned previously but Dave Gingery publisher what is perhaps the best series of books on building shop machinery.  The problem is it is from the ground up using cast aluminum.  It is worth considering but for a lathe bed I would expect that one could do epoxy granites far faster especially if optimized for epoxy granites.  Of course you would still need to fab everything else that goes on top of the bed.   In any event Gingery’s books are a must read for a DIY machine tool builder.


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## TSutrina

Epoxy or Portland cement are both great binders for the filler and reinforcement steel.   Epoxy is expensive which is why the concrete lathe is made of cement.   Prof. Tyler Lay (www.tylerlay.com) and on youtube provides information on making good concrete.   I suggest you see his youtube on curing that is recent and on post tensioning since concrete is an order of magnitude stronger in compression then tension.  Both curing and tensioning will keep the concrete from cracking.   I would consider the fiber filled concrete for making such things as the head of the lathe and the other smaller parts.  Lot stiffer then aluminum and can be bigger.   

Gingery and every cast metal machine I know are made up of pieces bolted together.   Need to make the lathe bigger yet manageable them make it out of multiple parts.   You can use the methods use to make plaster casting to insure alignment  The first half is cast with dimples manually put into the mating face.  The next half creates the mate.   I would use some of those tensioning steel cables or rods to clamp the two parts together.   Even a long lathe bed can be made with multiple segments that are stacked like you would bricks.   The key to stiffness is lots of tensioning with many also clamping the segments together.   

Tensioning fasteners should even be use in the  smaller components with fiber as part of the fill.   It will be harder to cover all the load directions with tension rods which is why fiber is used.  At least the primary load points can be covered.   Some steel mounting surface will be needed since concentrated loads can not be avoided.  Each tension rod should have a steel load spreader.

Your worried that the accuracy of the lathe bed will be compromised by segmenting it?   Once the concrete is properly cured which from Tyler the majority is achieved in 3 days so if your in a rush wait a week to get more then 90%  of the compression strength.  Then tension up the steel.   Creep should only drop the tension in the bars a little, both the steel and concrete will creep but if your well away from the yield strength this should not be a problem.   And I assume your design will not even come close to loads causing the assembly to get close to the yield strength.   Thus nothing should move more then the bending deflections that you have set at well below the tolerance you designed.  Add a sealer to the concrete and you home.   Epoxy is a good choice.


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