# British 0-4-0 Toy Locomotive: he said



## zeeprogrammer

I wanted to start this topic with 'When last we left our hero...' but when I looked at my avatar...I couldn't bring myself to it.

I've been trying to come up with a new avatar but to be honest...I think that little kid there has misled many of you to my advantage. ;D More about that kid later.

'The Improved British 0-4-0 Toy Locomotive' is the 3rd in the series from Elderberry Steam Engines.







As I mentioned in my last work in progress, I wanted to do this because it requires some new skills. Notably silver soldering and sheet-metal. It doesn't hurt that it's a loco. (More about that later too).

And so we begin...

Here's a pic of all the parts that came in the kit.






You have to purchase the drain extension tube that is used to make the boiler.

Much of what you see will end up on the 'Wall of Learnings'. But I'd like to think the cup and funnel will survive. Maybe the screws too.

When we finish this, let's remember to go back and see how it compares to the above pic.

And now a maudlin moment...

That avatar is a picture of me shortly after my family moved to Europe. Dad was in the Army and Mom is native German. So we did a lot of traveling and visiting of family. That meant a lot of museums...in particular the Deutches Museum in Munich when I stayed with my grandparents. Opi was a mechanic and I think that's where I got my first smell of a shop. During that time a number of dreams were born. In particular...locomotives. So looking at that kid is a reminder.

It's been 50 years. But one year ago I began the adventure. And a month later I found this forum. I knew virtually nothing about machining then...and what I know now...is in part all you people's fault. Thanks for that. (I leave an appropriate emoticon to you.)


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## b.lindsey

Looks like a great project zee. What scale is it...meaning will it run on O gauge track, HO or other? Also what will be used to fire the boiler? Looking forward to your progress on this one

Bill


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill.

The plans call out 027 gauge. Which seems odd. I would've called out O gauge.
I did a quick look on Google. 027 gauge is shorter (in height) and has a tighter circle.
Span is the same...so again, I would've thought O gauge. If anything, to go around with less chance of tip-over.

Thanks for the reminder...need to hunt up some track some time.

Fuel is 'Alcohol: Sterno Liquid Fuel for Fondues'. Something else I know little about...although I enjoyed many a fondue back when they were popular.


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## mklotz

The big box stores that cater to caterers and such (Smart and Final is one example) sell the liquid Sterno fuel for use in chafing dishes. My guess is that Coleman fuel or the alcohol sold at Home Depot as a shellac thinner would work just as well.

The plans I have for a steam roller employ the jellied Sterno cans as the heat source. I like that idea since it's unspillable.


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## 4156df

Carl/Zee,
Glad to see you're at it again. This looks like a very interesting project. By the way, one of my dreams is to visit the Deutches Museum in Munich. You were a lucky kid to be able to spend time there.
Dennis


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## arnoldb

I wish you well Zee ;D Will be watching this one closely!

Regards, Arnold

PS: I agree - Deutches Museum IS something to see!


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## zeeprogrammer

I've had some issues lately, some bumness if you will ;D but it sure felt good to run the lathe and make something today.

[EDIT: didn't mention that it's a bumper for the loco....not that any of you wouldn't know anyway.]






Sorry it's not closer/clearer. Wife stole my SX10 and gave me her old S2IS...I don't think the macro works. I've been interested in Marv's thread on that pocket camera...the macro is astounding. Maybe I can convince wife she forgot a Christmas present for me. Nah. Who am I kidding?)

Marv: Thanks. Shellac thinner eh? Good to know.

Dennis: I was a very lucky kid. Wouldn't trade with anyone.

Arnold: Deutches museum is certainly good to see. So is Munich. People are very friendly there. Those Bavarians enjoy a good time. (And I'm half Bavarian!) I had the opportunity to see it again last year. That was special...hadn't been in Munich in years. Managed to visit my grandparents' graves and see the old apartment building. Many thanks to them. They gave me a great Mom who attracted a great Dad. Sheesh...she's 83 and still bowling at various state tournaments. Oh right...uh...machining...

Someone (we'll just say he's in debt to me - you know who he is) asked some questions that got me to thinking...

Why wasn't the drain extension pipe included in the kit? Is it a way of avoiding litigation? Not at fault cause I didn't get the 'right' pipe?

And why can't I find a single example of this on the web?

Is this thing safe?

Ah well...I do believe in safety valves...let's get further down the road...

If anyone knows of someone who's built this, or seen it on the web, ...let me know.


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## b.lindsey

Uh...well, yep that sure looks like a bumper alright!! Have to agree though, for the price of the kit, it does look like they could have thrown in the drain pipe extension. I am assuming that this loco operates on relatively low pressure, though you are right to think of the safety consideratioins. Its still a boiler whatever the pressure.

If that thing about the wife forgetting a Christmas present works for you let me know. I may try that here !! That little camera has me realoly intrigued as well.

Bill


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## Artie

Looking forward to your build presented in your usual happy style. Bring it on....

Artie


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## bearcar1

Hey! I've been searching all over the house for that, it's the knob off the bi-fold doors to the pantry! Where ever did you find it Z'? Rof} 

Nice looking piece, do you have to duplicate it? Those are the worst pieces to make, you have to get them both pretty close or they look "wrong" That's where CNC machines shine it on, mount the blank, zero set the spindle, push the button and sit back and watch it do its magic. Kinda takes all the fun out of it. Tally HO with your loco, this should be another good ride to tag along on. 


BC1
Jim


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## shred

The Deutchesmuseum in Munich should be on every HMEM-er's bucket list. Truly a cool place for the mechanical-minded. I wandered into 'the history of power' exhibit, starting with neolithic man-power and came out the other end being able to design and build a jet engine or hydro-turbine with not much more than a formal dinner setting.  ;D

Friend of mine had a honeymoon in Bavaria. His wife gave him a full day on his own to run around the museum as a present.


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## Deanofid

Hi Zee! 
Glad you are back on a build. 
Your first bit looks just great, and I'm sure it's the start of a string of successfully built parts. Keep the M&M's handy.

I feel the need to mention something about fuel. Specifically Coleman fuel. It is basically naphtha, and has a fume and burn characteristic similar to regular gasoline. It cannot be used in an open container that has a fully liquid fuel supply. Just like naphtha, it will "wooof!" if you have any fumes near a fire. It makes the burn rate of alcohol look like a stick of wood. Too volatile to use as a fuel that is not fully separated from the atmosphere.

FWIW, I like young master Zee in your avatar. He's the guy I look for when I'm looking for you, and I'm always looking for your posts.

Dean


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## DavesWimshurst

Hey Zee,
Is this what you're looking for. I built two of them back in 1977 or '78, one for a friend. The plans were in Live Steam and the design was by James Senft. It's been a while since I have even looked at it but If I can help I'll try.




Dave


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## J. Tranter

Drain extention pipe is made from brass and from what I have read on here not good for boilers. But as I'm just a novice also maybe I'm wrong.

John T.


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## zeeprogrammer

Bill...the instructions indicate adjusting the safety valve until air escapes at 15 PSI. I'm thinking that's low pressure...but is all relative to me. On the other hand...there's nothing questionable when it comes to saying whether the Christmas idea works with wife or not. It won't. And you know it won't. ;D

Thanks Artie.

Jim...I do have to make duplicates. Actually...while I like making the one-off...I wouldn't mind having CNC to make duplicates once I know how to program it with the knowledge gained about metal. I know what you mean about making the pieces look the same. I'd be surprised to get all 4 looking the same..maybe I can get two and two...

Dean...thank you so much. Much appreciated.

Thank you John and Shred. Yeah...Shred talked about that boiler too when I mentioned doing this in my last thread. I talked to another fellow about using a copper pipe instead. We'll review when we get further down the road.

Dave! Yes! That's it! What can you tell me to look out for? Especially the boiler? That doesn't look like a drain pipe. What are the caps made of? Anything about running it? It doesn't have a throttle so does it take off like a banshee? Or run up to a speed that would make me yell 'run!' to my family?


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## Twmaster

Some how I have an image of Zee in my mind telling the family 'stand outside, I'm gonna light this sucker!'


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## mklotz

Here, hold my beer M&Ms and watch this!


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## bearcar1

"somebody call 911!" ............ uh operator, yes, I'd like to report a fire....
 :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


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## Deanofid

"Wake up, honey. You've never seen an explosion like this!"


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## tmuir

J. Tranter  said:
			
		

> Drain extention pipe is made from brass and from what I have read on here not good for boilers. But as I'm just a novice also maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> John T.



Brass can dezinc or become brittle with old age (read old age as 80 plus or more years).

Its not good for boilers that work at high pressure, or ones that see a lot of use.
But all the toy steam engine manufactuers still use brass for their boilers and a number of them still soft solder them.

SO basically brass is not goos for a 7/12 guage loco, but is ok for the boilers on small 'toy' steam engines, especially one that the safety valve lifts at 14.7 PSI or one atmosphere.
The 14.7PSI is set by legislation as this is the maximum pressure that is allowed to be held by a pressure vessel and be clasified as a toy.

One of my many hobbies is buying old broken to syeam engines (mainly Australian made ones) and fixing them. All of my toy steam egines have brass boilers.

What it boils down to is brass looks prettier when polished than copper, which is what helps sell the toys.

Good luck with the build Zee.
I was looking at that kit myself a few weeks ago. but figured I had enough projects already waiting for me to get to them.


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## DavesWimshurst

Zee,
After much searching I found the original magazine articles. Feb,Mar and Apr 1976 Live steam.
The boiler shell is specified as 1 1/4 inch od with a 0.035" wall. The end caps are specified as 1/32 inch brass. The brass ends are annealed and hammered into shape over aluminum formers using a soft faced hammer and working in several stages with annealing at each step. The safety valve is set at 10 psi according to the magazine article.
It's a very tame banshee, at least mine were. Of course I was a rank beginner when I made the pair.
The alcohol burner wicks can give some control over the speed and can be blown out to stop it (so the article says.) I guess now I'll have to get it going again, I think my safety valve is leaky.
I may remember more later. Ask if I'm unclear.
Have fun with it.
Dave


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## Seanol

Zee,
If you decide to go copper I have saved a link that will sell in small portions:

http://www.plumbingworld.com/rigid_copper_pipe.html

No affiliation, just planning on my own build in the near future.

Good luck, I can't wait to see how it turns out,

Sean


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## zeeprogrammer

Twmaster  said:
			
		

> Some how I have an image of Zee in my mind telling the family 'stand outside, I'm gonna light this sucker!'





			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Here, hold my beer M&Ms and watch this!





			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> "somebody call 911!" ............ uh operator, yes, I'd like to report a fire....





			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> "Wake up, honey. You've never seen an explosion like this!"



Make one little part and people start setting expectations. :big:

Thanks tmuir. Since this is a drain extension pipe for the boiler, it is clad in chrome. I have to remove it from the ends so the end caps can be soldered on. It will take some careful sanding.

Thanks for the link Sean.

Neat stuff Dave. For this kit, the boiler is also 1 1/4...when I get one I'll measure the wall - just to see how it compares. The brass end caps for this kit are turned rather than shaped.


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## PaulG

Zee, old super "O" track for your new, later loco, 31" radius...

ebay 140384079979

Paul


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## E Chris

Hi Zee and all,

I, like Dave, made one of the little steam locos back in the late 70's. Dickens is what they call it in Live Steam Magazine. If you notice on the photo I added a steam valve at the boiler outlet. I don't think the original plans called for one, but it is quite useful in taming the beast. Mine ran well, actually too well, on making a curve it tipped off the track and immediately burst in to flames. Luckily I was running it on a concrete floor, if on carpet, 911 may have been in order! Ten psig is plenty, I personally wouldn't press a brass boiler any higher. You have done a beautiful job, I love the polish. Mine on the other hand has that patina stuff (read neglected cleaning and polishing ) all over it. If I can be of any help (polishing excluded) please let me know.







Chris


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Paul.
Nice looking model Chris.

I'm glad to see a few of you have built this loco. I was beginning to wonder if it was real or not.

I made 4 more of the bumpers. I'm pretty happy with them. However, I think they indicate a problem in the lathe or my cutting. There are concentric circles on the disk. After polishing...they actually look pretty neat. (There is a problem with the lathe...speed seems to vary quite a bit without changing setting...we'll see what happens once I get my order of transistors in.)

I also made the doo-hickey that is used to attach a tire pump for hydro testing. Well..not finished...I need to get a 1/4-28 die to do the thread...and then it's finished.

No pics! Sorry. Camera is no good with Macro. Wife comes home this weekend and I can get my good camera back!


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## zeeprogrammer

Some progress...first the promised pic...

By the way...one should hug one's wife when she gets home from a two week trip instead of first saying "where's the camera?". ;D

Thought you should know. I got it backwards. So it took a while longer to use the camera.






The one brass part looks a little chattery. It's the dummy steam dome for testing so I wasn't real careful.

Worked on the frames today. All that's left is to cut the contour and clean it. I used my milling clamps as a stop and did each piece separately...a hole at a time. I worried that doing both together might cause one to pull up into chuck...not a good thing. Later I thought I might have been able to bolt them together.

You'll notice one of the holes seems 'burned'. I'm not sure what happened. It was apparent on the first bit I used that it was dull. I went to a second, and although it cut, I think it wasn't sharp enough. That's when the 'burn' happened. A third bit worked great.

For the pic, the parallels are in the 'start' position. You can the one under the slot. When I cut the slot I had the parallel at an angle with packing to make sure it didn't move.

The instructions talked about using a center drill then drill in a chuck, and then to change to a collet and end mill the slot by plunge cutting. I used the center drill and drill in a collet. That let me get closer just in case the column/head wasn't right.

But...they came out great. Everything lines up nicely when put together.


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## 4156df

Carl,
Looking good. This is a really interesting project. I'm not a fan of drilling stacked pieces either. Not only because of holding issues, but also because it's easy to have the drill bit wander.
Keep it up!
Dennis


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## Deanofid

Glad your missus is home safe, again, Zee.

The bits are looking good! Only problem I can see is, you have cooler M&M paraphernalia than I.

Dean


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## vlmarshall

Great work so far. I'm glad to see this loco going together. :bow:


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## ozzie46

Nice start Zee.  Will be watching in the wings.

  Instructions? Whats are those?  :big: :big: :big:

  Ron


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dennis.
Thanks Dean. It helps that I used to work for them.
Vernon...yeah. ;D
Thanks Ron.

I finished the frames...it took a change of pants, some dome scratching, a little help from a buddy (read rat)...

I'll show pics once I have them cleaned up...but I'm going to wait to do that as I expect to mar them up as I proceed.

I was so proud...I took them upstairs to show them off...

She said..."You should have known from the measurements you wouldn't be able to sit on it."

There was no point in trying to explain.


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## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I was so proud...I took them upstairs to show them off...
> 
> She said..."You should have known from the measurements you wouldn't be able to sit on it."
> 
> There was no point in trying to explain.



Now, that's a _Coke-out-of-the-nose_ snort 'n giggle if I've ever heard one. What a gal.
Excuse me while I change my shirt and clean up around here...

Dean


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## Jack B

Hi Carl
That's a nice project you picked to make. 
Yesterday I attended the NEMES show in Massachusetts. Many talented people there with great models. Last year there was a man there set up on a round table with a track. He was running a model like the one you are building. There were a bunch of children standing at the table watching with amazement as the little engine run around the track. I didn't see him there this year. I wish you luck with yours you seem to be off to a good start.   Jack B


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.
Thanks Jack...


			
				Jack B  said:
			
		

> There were a bunch of children standing at the table watching with amazement as the little engine run around the track.


Yeah...a lot of joy in that.

This kit doesn't have the blow-by-blow instructions that the prior two kits have. (Please keep the cheering down folks.) So I'm left to my own devices and what I've learned from those two kits and this forum.

That's not a bad thing.

Please point out better methods, incorrect technique, the right technique, etc. It is all very welcome. (Zeepster only learns from oopsters when they're pointed out.)

Today I made the 4 brass stretchers. I cut a piece of 1/4" bar into 4 pieces and milled them all together to length. A tad short but they should do.

Then it was holes and tapping. I did them in stages. First I drilled all the holes that were the same distance from the end. Then swapped out the chuck for a collet to hold the tapping tool and tapped them all. Then I did the center hole the same way, and finally the holes on the ends.

Here's a pic of my setup for the holes near the ends. The near parallel is stuck to the vise with double-stick tape. The far parallel was used to sit the part and then moved out far enough for drilling. Once the Y axis was set, I never had to change it. Only had to set X 3 times.






When I did the holes on the ends, I just pressed the part up against the stop. Probably not the most square but the distance for tapping is quite small so I didn't think the error would matter.

Here's a pic of the stretchers and the frames...I won't polish them them up until later...






And for fun I put what I had together...






I was real happy to have made the Z extension mod on my X2. The extra one inch sure makes a difference.

Whatever mistakes I may have made...I was real happy with today's work. I can tell that the investment you all have made in me is taking hold.

hm..looking at that last pic reminds me...

When I did the slot, I drilled a 3/16 hole and then switched to an end-mill and plunged cut the required distance. The problem is, the drill bit cuts a slightly larger hole so the slot isn't perfect. What would you folks have done? I'm thinking I should have used a 5/64 drill bit and let the end-mill clean it up. Thanks.


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## Twmaster

I would have drilled a smaller hole and done the cleanup with a milling bit. Taking your time and light cuts.

Well, that train is too small for you to ride on but the red M&M guy will be at home. Now you need to get him a ChooChoo Charlie hat...


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## Deanofid

The frame plates look good, Zee. They appear to be nicely matched up, and the angles and edges I can see look nice and crisp. The assembly pic is plumb full of promise!

If the slot problem you are talking about is where one end of the elongated hole looks slightly larger than the other, then I think you have the solution in what you already mentioned. Just take it slow when you go at a hole in that manner. 

End mills have a tendency to try to walk a bit when first starting a plunge cut, even if there is already a pre-drilled hole beneath it. Lock the gibs up tight, run the spindle fairly fast, feed down slow.  If you feel the machine shudder a bit, stop and find out why.
There are rotational forces at work when you plunge a cutter that has flat edges on the end, like an end mill. It's magnified somewhat on small machines, and even more when using a small diameter cutter. Just keep an eye on it.

If you have a proper sized counter sink, it will do the same job of starting a hole in a thin section, without the nerves that sometimes come with plunging an end mill. Just start it with the proper sized pilot hole.

Dean


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Mike and Dean. Your posts meant a lot to me.

I'm pretty happy with how well the frames match...and while I ended up with a good result..anyone else would have done a better job of getting there. But hey...next time it'll be better. The holes do match up well...as for the crisp lines...well...afterwards I took a file and went over everything. However, if that's what I was supposed to do...then ignore what I just said. ;D

Nice tip about the countersink Dean. Also, I knew about drill bits walking (figured that was part of the problem)...but didn't know end-mills could do the same (but I suspect not as bad).


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## Deanofid

It's a different kind of "walking" with an end mill and a drill bit, Zee. The drill bit wanders around because it starts with a point that isn't really a point at all. It's a small flat edge on the tip of the drill bit. You already know how to stop that by using a center drill.

The end mill is very stiff, compared to a drill bit. It also has those side flutes that cut, along with the edges on the bottom. When you first start a plunge cut, one of those edges can dig in pretty hard and pull the end mill in that direction.  It can be a pretty hard tug on the end mill, and sometimes something will give. Slop in the gibs can be a big problem in that case, and so can a little runout in the spindle. Sometimes it will jerk a piece out of the vise, or break the end mill. Usually, it will plunge cut like you expect. If you know the possibilities, you can do what is needed to prevent problems.

Dean


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## hobby

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Today I made the 4 brass *stretchers.* I cut a piece of 1/4" bar into 4 pieces and milled them all together to length. A tad short but they should do.




Well, if there a tad short, then s..t..r..e..t..c..h. em.

Aint that why there called ....."strectchers"... :big:

Your build is coming together quite nicely.

Keep up the good work...


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## ksouers

Nice work, Zee. I just might have to put a loco on my to-do list.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...as for the crisp lines...well...afterwards I took a file and went over everything. However, if that's what I was supposed to do...then ignore what I just said. ;D



OK, ignored ;D

Yes, you should break all edges after cutting. Any burrs will cause parts to not sit flat or to deflect in the vise. They cut fingers, get rid of 'em (the burrs, not the fingers!). Just confirming what you already knew to be correct. To my mind parts just aren't finished until the edges have been taken care of.


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## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> If you know the possibilities, you can do what is needed to prevent problems.



That's what I'm enjoying about this build. The experience is starting to catch up. (I like to think.)

Thanks hobby.

Thanks Kevin.


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## vlmarshall

Great frames! Man, I'm having locomotive withdrawal symptoms. :bow: Go, Zeepster!





			
				ksouers  said:
			
		

> To my mind parts just aren't finished until the edges have been taken care of.


Sooooooooooo true!


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## Maryak

Zee,

Nice start, if I e..........v...........e...........r finish the hit and miss I have promised myself I will, ..........yes I will,........ no I really mean I will............... make a copper boiler.......................................  :-\

Decisions, Decisions, Decisions. :'(

Best Regards
Bob


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon.
Thanks Bob...and yeah...I'd like to see that hit-n-miss...what's the hold up? ;D

Okay...I managed a part tonight. But first, please help me remember the following mantra by gathering together and singing with me...

'Do not rush', 'Do not rush'
'Double check', 'Double check'

Lest you end up posting your boo-boos like me...

A simple part...front of the frame...square it, trim off two corners, and drill 4 holes. It would help if you mill to the correct scribe lines. It also helps if you have sharp drills. It's even better if you know what you're doing.

A post or two ago I showed my frames. What I didn't mention was the amount of blue chips I created. So this time, I used a smaller mill (thanks Seanol), slower speed (thanks Vernon), and offset the cutter instead of going down the middle (thanks again Vernon). Much better. Until I tried going full depth. Ah... well...I can see some experience is sticking to me...played with speed control and feed...and it went better.

But...I went too far on one end, and cranked the wrong way on the other end...maybe you can't tell...but that's why the little guy is frowning...







And a fun fit...


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## vlmarshall

Wow, Zeep, that is looking great. :bow:


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## Seanol

Zee,

No problems. I made 3 side rails all to .020 smaller that what the plans called for. All at once!

I found that when I used the smaller cutter I went faster, not slower. But that was for the size of my machine.

I only took big cuts in aluminum. In steel I chicken out. Even with a stout setup I will never take more than .050 and on the edges of the frame I was taking .020 a pass. I remove the majority of my stock with a 4x6 harbor freight band saw so I don't have to spend all night cranking back and forth (all right, watching the power feed go back and forth... :big

Keep up the good work,

Sean


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## Seanol

Zee,
Using Bob Warfields GWizard program I get 1300 rpm with a 3/8ths 2 flute cutter (hss) cutting 3/16ths (half) width running at 1300 rpm with a feed rate of 4 inches per minute or .066 a second. (You were cutting mild steel right?)

How does that stack up to what you were running?

If you substitute a carbide 2 flute cutter you are at 2800 rpm with a feed rate of 11.4 inches per minute! 

This assumes 80% of the recommended production SFM and a rigid set up. Even at 50% you are at 1800 rpm and 7 inches per minute.

Hope that helps a little,
Sean


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## Deanofid

Thanks for the new assembly shot, Zee. I'm gettin' all impressed an' stuff.
I mean, I like it!

Dean


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## cobra428

Nice work Zeep,
Your moving along at a nice pace

Tony


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Vernon.
Thanks Seanol...faster/slower is relative...I think I was so fast...I had to go slower which might have been your faster. ;D
Thanks Dean. Careful...you still ain't gettin' my M&Ms.
Thanks Tony.

Well..got an hour in the shop (I can say 'in the shop'! that is so cool!) and made a simple part...the floor for the frame. Nothing special....other than I made it and it's mine. ;D






Some of the screws that hold the stretchers need to be shortened yet.

You might notice the little dude has a bandage on his knee. He's scheduled for arthroscopic surgery on Friday and that may slow him down. On the other hand...we're supposed to get 10-14" inches of snow tomorrow. Which might mean postponement...but he's going to be really bummed out cause there won't be the usual Friday pizza.

The knee is no big deal...but it'll be difficult getting into (yay! I get to say it again) 'the shop' for a while cause it's in the basement. Tore the meniscus hauling my horizontal band saw into the basement.

Happily I'll still be able to dance.

Now...how many of you thought 'happy dance' and how many of you thought 'ballroom'? hehehehehe...I enjoy both, but to be honest...dancing with wife is pretty nice.


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## cobra428

Nice Zeep,
I did the meniscus thing about 4 years ago. Ice on the knee and martinis in the face. :big:

Tony


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## Deanofid

When I hear "happy dance" I always think of Snoopy in the Charlie Brown cartoons. He looks very happy, indeed. 

You're little chugger is looking better with every shop session, Zee. I really enjoyed Arnold's "Fred", and I'm liking your little tank, too. What is it about small locos? I've never built one, but I'm getting an itch!

I hope your appointment with the saw bones goes well. Pizza and M&Ms are both known to help men recuperate faster. Mass quantities are even better. The more of them you eat, the sooner you'll be able to get back into _The Shop_. 
No, really!

Dean


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## Seanol

Zee,
Tore mine last year and still waiting to have it fixed!

Go slow and heal up, we need our "As the Workshop turns" fix! :big:

Good luck,

Sean


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## SAM in LA

Zee,

If you rig up a sled and come-a-long you can winch yourself up and down the stairs to the shop.

 scratch.gif

SAM


----------



## ozzie46

Coming along nicely there Zee. Hope to get more done on mine soon.

  Make sure the Nurses treat you well. ;D ;D

 Ron


----------



## arnoldb

Getting along nicely Zee ;D - Aren't you cheating a bit with milling and not filing though ? :big: :big:



> Nothing special....other than I made it and it's mine.


That's precisely what makes it special !

Best wishes with the medical stuff as well, keep a supply of M&Ms handy; I've heard the red ones are especially good pain killers...

Kind Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not expecting as much snow as they thought...so it may still be on.

First question to the doctor...."No. How are YOU today?"
Second question..."Did you have your Wheaties?"
Third question..."Why am I still awake?"
First beg to the nurse..."Please be nice to me."
Second beg to the nurse..."Please come home with me."
Third beg to the nurse..."Please...", well it pretty much just keeps going that way...

Tony...'martinis in the face'...yep...that's my usual remedy for all things unpleasant.
Dean...Build one! Build it! That would be great!
Sean..."As the shop turns"... Rof} That was great.
SAM...wife keeps threatening me with one of those stair elevators (like in "Up").
Ron...see above pleading. Never has worked but I'm an optimist when it comes to women. The alternative means to question life. ;D Wife don't mind...she's a realist...she knows I'll fail every time.
Arnold! Back from your trip. I hope it went well. What'd Grandpa Fred say? Ha...nice shot about filing. ;D [EDIT: I'm working from the past...just came across your post and Grandpa. That's great! Be sure to take photos of the 'veranda railway']

Thanks everyone. Very much appreciated. No worries here.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

As part of my therapy from arthroscopic surgery...I did do some work in the shop.
However, no prescription pain killers were involved (during shop time).
But I did play some music...a little '3 Dog Night'... ;D






Upper left is a spacer. This is used to mount the boiler to the cabin. Sorry...I forgot to include a coin for scale. The spacer is .20 OD, .13 ID, and .08 thick. I dropped it once. It is now embedded in a hunk of blue tack.

Next to that is the steam dome cover. That was a fun piece. But I was just a little off with the slitting saw.

Next is the 'orifice' safety valve'. Also fun and a better job with the slitting saw.

For those two pieces I took a piece of aluminum, tapped it 1/4-28, slit it, and used it to hold the pieces during slitting.

Next are two bushings. they're identical...one is for the steam dome and the other for the chimney. I used a 1/4-28 tap from a kit that includes dies better suited for cleaning up threads rather than making new ones. I think I'm going to go look for better taps too.

Next is the boiler mount stud. I do so enjoy working with brass.

Now comes the connector for a bicycle hand pump. It's used when testing the boiler for pressure. For this I used a 5C collet in a collet block. Marv's and Tel's earlier advice about mounting and using a stop was very helpful. (By the way...I think it was you Trout that talked about the 5C collet block...the wrench that came with my mill worked fine for tightening the collars).

However, it's actually the 2nd try. On the first try I milled off part of the collar. That would have been okay...still useful since it's not part of the final engine. But then I milled the side too far. Again still useful but I was discouraged and decided a second go would be good practice.

The next part is the filler tube. I was pretty happy with this..but it went awry just as I was almost done (a familiar story I'm sure). It might be difficult to see but there's a bit of chatter on the inside. It didn't help that I used a counter-sink that was some 30 years old and had been used to...well... you don't want to know...you'd kick me out.

In the center is a handrail stud with a 0-80 pre-made nut on one end. I'd never made a thread that small before. I was feeling pretty good until I ripped off the end of the next stud. In trying to get the piece of brass out I ruined the die. One thing I noticed is that by having the part sticking out further, I could feel the twist in the metal and back up. The rod is only 1/16 diameter. On the next part though it was held closer to the chuck...I couldn't feel the twist...and simply twisted it off. Having said that, I don't think I had the rod end at the right diameter for threading with the die.

Lastly, the two handrails. Kind/sorta happy there. The holes are not exactly centered though. And the bigger issue is I used a v-block to hold the part for drilling the hole in the end of the piece. As I am too often wont to do...I tightened the vise too much and crushed the rails. You can't tell from the pic...the dents are underneath. The ends were hand-filed.

For the most part...fairly easy parts. I'm working on two more sheet metal parts for the cab.

The score so far is 25 good pieces and two for the 'wall of learning'. And if you're keeping score, I only mentioned the one 'wall of learning' piece. We won't speak about the other. Mainly cause I can't remember what I did...but it's sitting here staring at me.

And now a personal note...well...two personal notes...

Dean...."nyah"
Vernon...didn't you get a lathe recently?

Now...where I'd put that Vicodin?


----------



## Seanol

Zee,

Wow. 

That is all I can say.

What an improvement in your skills. Beautiful parts that I would be proud to display on my loco.

Nice job again,
Sean


----------



## slick95

Great looking parts Zee 

Watching your build closely...

Jeff


----------



## Twmaster

Wowowowow!! Nice looking stuff so far zeeps....

You best git crackin or Dean will get the bug to build a loco and be running around the track before you get those bandaids off yer knee!


----------



## Deanofid

Great looking work, Zee. I'll see everyone's "wow" and up 'em a "gosh!". These really do look that good, to me.

I am working on sumthin', bud, so "nyah" back at ya. 
Glad you're mending!

Dean


----------



## PaulG

Nice looking parts Zee, I cant tell that their on drugs! 

Paul


----------



## Ken Bartlett

Great job so far. This may be an upcoming project for myself as well. I plan it to be a gift, so will be watching how you tackle the build with interest. Thanks for the well documented journey.


----------



## 4156df

Zee,
Very nice pieces. I particularly like the boiler mount stud. Going from thick to thin can be tricky.
Dennis


----------



## vlmarshall

Great work, Zeep! That's a bunch of nice-looking parts.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Sean, Jeff, Mike, Dean, Paul, Ken, Dennis, Vernon...thank you very much.

Much appreciation to the forum for helping me get here. Confidence is rising and trepidation is decreasing. (But then, I haven't gotten to the parts that require skills I haven't used yet. ;D )


----------



## ozzie46

Looking good Zee. 

 About the Vicodin, Doc gave me some once,I took it one time and never again. I could have got to liking that stuff tooooo muuuch.  Felt like I was floating for quite a while. No need for that. Besides the pain wasn't that bad as I remember.
 Just a personal aside.


 Ron


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Zee, I'm inspired to go out to my shop and make some threaded things now. Too bad I'm at work presently.  I'm really looking forward to the part where you make the boiler.

-Trout


----------



## arnoldb

Those are *really* great looking parts Zee :bow:



> But then, I haven't gotten to the parts that require skills I haven't used yet.


So when did you do sheet metal work before this and did not share ? :big:

Looking forward to the boiler build !

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## joe d

Zee

I'll join in on the "good looking parts". Have you considered weaning them off the pain killers and using steroids instead? Then you could build a BIGGER engine.....:hDe:

Joe


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Ron. Not to worry. While there was no floating for me (maybe I'm too big - or the martinis masked the effect ;D)...I just didn't like using the knee and not knowing if it was hurting me. The pain was never so terrible to warrant too much of the stuff.

[EDIT: I don't mean to make too light of this. Pain killer and alcohol do not mix. And neither do they mix with running equipment.]

Trout...looking forward to me making the boiler eh? I'm not. I figure that's when everything goes awry. Oh I think I'll get it to together...and it'll probably work...but it won't look good. But that's okay...people say the same thing about me...or used to. They don't refer to me having it together or working anymore.

Thanks Arnold...remember...you're the one who called me out on filing. ;D I've got more sheet metal to do...I'm expecting a story with at least two of them.

Joe...not a bad idea...but steroids tend to make other things smaller...and I'm still hoping to make use of them...or the one...as I'm sometimes reminded. ;D

Thanks all. This is fun.


----------



## Kaleb

Re your question about running characteristics, it should be manageable on a loop of track, The Bowman company used to make a loco similar to this mechanically, and look at the old Birmingham Dribblers and how successful they were.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kaleb.

This weekend was about the front wheels...meeting daughter #2's boyfriend...family...and dishes. The new boyfriend is okay...and he quickly coughed up his driver's license upon demand.

The tricky part for me was the trepanning. I'd tried it once before on a flywheel and...we'll just leave that lie there.

Anyway...went okay...a little trashy in the corner on my first wheel...second wheel went better. I used a boring bar. Having the center hole made that more possible. The instructions had you using an end-mill (progressively stepping up and then moving to a boring bar) but that resulted in a whole lot of chatter.

This shot shows the setup (well not much of it unfortunately) where I was turning the flange.







To do the 4 spoke holes, the instructions had you sit the thing on parallels in the mill. I saw that a 3/16 drill bit was called for and knowing I have tendency to crush things in the vise, I mounted my rotary table instead and used a 3/16 collet to hold the center drill and drill. That was a dream.

The wheels turned out pretty good for my first ones...although I seemed to have gotten a bit of swarf or two between the integral washer and something on the one wheel (you might be able to see it).

The other problem is that the 4 spoke holes are drilled from the back (even when you follow the instructions). This results in some crud around the rim on the front side. Because of the outer wheel rim, I couldn't get to it with the counter sink I have. I took a larger drill bit and twirled it by hand. Works...sortof...but you can see a slight amount of chatter.

Any suggestions for better methods?

Here's the wheels...






The little guy gets his stitches out tomorrow.


----------



## mklotz

Deburring jobs like that can sometimes be done effectively with a ball endmill. In extremis, I've ground an Xacto blade to the needed shape and used that.


----------



## Deanofid

The wheels look good, Zee. I can't see the boogering you mentioned around the holes. It may just need a little sandpaper on a small dowel to clean it up. Go at it gently and take your time so as not to round over any edges.



> meeting daughter #2's boyfriend



Naturally, when I read this, in my brain it came out "meeting daughter's #2 boyfriend". All I could think was, "Man... that boyfriend #1 must be a very understanding guy..."

No wonder I make so many mistakes.

Dean


----------



## stevehuckss396

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I took a larger drill bit and twirled it by hand. Works...sortof...but you can see a slight amount of chatter.
> 
> Any suggestions for better methods?



For small holes 3/16 or smaller I do what you did, use a larger drill bit. I also use razor blades for tough spots and 360 grit paper for square corners and places that are easily accessed.

Great build by the way. I have been following along from page one.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. What did you use to hold the bit...be it ball end or X-acto?

Thanks Dean...I was thinking sandpaper on a dowel...but have to be careful not to mar up the side of the rim. And I'd like to make the mistakes you make. (See next post.)

Thanks Steve...and thanks very much for watching.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Rats.

At first I thought the wheels were a press fit but they're not. The axle is a simple turning job (he said) so I thought I'd try and get that in before calling it a night (or rather, be yanked out of my hole).

1018 3/16 rod...my favorite metal. ;D

Faced the one end, turned it down to diameter, and then got out the center drill.
Busted the center drill.
Luckily...the end piece flew off somewhere.
I was pretty sure I was going too slow so I got out another, increased the speed, and everything was fine. Drilled and tapped 2-56.

Now for the other end. Faced to diameter.
Center drill...same speed.
Busted.
I'm thinking it wasn't true (i.e. off center).

This time the end piece was stuck in the rod.

Sadness. :rant:


----------



## b.lindsey

Coming along nicely Zee! As to the broken center drill in the axle...I feel your pain...hang in there.

Bill


----------



## stevehuckss396

Sorry to hear of the problems Zee. Was it one of those china brand center drills?


----------



## vlmarshall

Sorry to hear about the bit of bad luck, Zeep! It gets better with time... did I ever tell ya about the time 12 years ago when I BENT a .750" endmill? ;D


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Dean... And I'd like to make the mistakes you make. (See next post.)



You probably wouldn't!
Let me commiserate, friend Zee.  (Small pics, so as not to dirty up your thread too much.)







This little (#4) counterbore was one of a set I made some time back. You can see the broken flute, and if you look close, you can see the other flutes have blunt tips. I tested them all in a piece of 1018, and at the bottom of its first hole, this one was kaput. I missed the color on the temper for this one, and next day had to spend a few hours making up a couple more of them. Re-do all my setups and all that jazz for this size.

It happens to all of us. Some mistakes are really discouraging. 

Happy ending shot:






Your build is coming along great, and it seems to me that you progress in leaps and bounds.
I love your build threads, mistakes and all!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill, Steve, Vernon, and Dean.

And now I come crawling for forgiveness...

Certainly the center drill was not true but apparently neither is my eyesight.

I thought I'd see if I could 'pick it out'...well that booger wasn't going to be picked because it wasn't there. Then I got a magnifying loop and checked the center drill...both ends are still there. (Although I was right about the first one.)

[EDIT: loupe! it's a loupe you dolt.]

There's nothing much more maddening than the feeling of a booger that you just can't get to.

Hm. Maybe things were just not true. So I tried again. Success!
So I drilled. Success!
So I tapped...the last operation mind you...but success!

Put the wheels on. Rats! Too tight. No problem...a little sand...and off we go...

So here it is...






And mounted...






By the way Marv, I got those miniature nut drivers you suggested. Nice. $18 + $7 shipping from 'smallparts'.

Now to get my eyes checked. I did last December...got my first prescription for glasses...but it was a no go. Tried twice at Lenscrafters but still couldn't see. I think the prescription is wrong. Going to stick with the readers for another year but be more careful.

This might explain why I haven't been happy with my pics for a while.

Again, apologies for the wild goose chase...I know I'm not alone.

And many thanks to Vernon for his on-line support...he's been getting an earful (er...eyeful) from me on YIM.


----------



## Philjoe5

Looking good Zee. You've made a lot of progress since I poked my head in here a while ago. The parts look darn good and despite some of your online confessions about missing the mark they would never appear to be "off spec" to most (all?) of us.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## mklotz

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Marv. What did you use to hold the bit...be it ball end or X-acto?



My mega-pinvise for the mill and, for the X-acto blade... wait for it ... an X-acto knife handle. The mega-pinvise is nothing more than a 1/4" Jacobs chuck with a 6" hollow handle. Make yourself one. They're amazingly useful.

BTW, thanks for correcting the spelling of loupe. That's one of the (many) misspellings that really bugs me.


----------



## ozzie46

Looks good even though you had some missteps.

  Looking forward to next post.

  Ron


----------



## tmuir

Your flying along Zee.
Its starting to look like a real loco.
Nice work.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil, Marv, Ron, and tmuir. Very much appreciated.

To be honest Marv...I'd gotten a heads up that you would jump me on the 'loupe/loop'. So I did the 'EDIT' rather than actually correct it. ;D Just to see. ;D

Well a little something tonight...the FRAME MID-SECTION. I played with the idea of putting it in the rotary table and milling the corners...but I ended up filing them. I sanded the thing a little...just to clean it some. It looks like I wasn't careful enough with the vise and there's lots of little dents in it. I really need to cover the vise with something (like copper sheet) and be more careful to make sure things are clean.

I did the rear axle the other night. Another short-sighted piece of work. The stock I had was enough for the front and rear axle. Silly me thought they where the same length and cut the stock in half. It turns out the rear axle is slightly longer so I ended up short by .04". Shouldn't be a problem though.






Yep stitches are out. Knee was feeling pretty good up until today. Pretty painful. Any of you that had arthroscopic surgery have the same issue? Feeling good and then can hardly walk? Any truth to being related to weather? We're expecting rain. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

You're such a good little file-er, Zee. 
You really are going along on this quite well. Especially for a guy with a bum peg.

Looking very nice.

Dean


----------



## 4156df

Zee,


> arthroscopic surgery have the same issue? Feeling good and then can hardly walk?


Had the same experience with my knee. Everything was fine for awhile then knee and the backs of my legs started aching. I thought the pad on my chair had gone bad and actually went out and bought a new chair before I figured out what was going on. Not one of my brighter moves! Everything worked out in the end though.

Oh, nice work on the loco.

Dennis


----------



## arnoldb

;D That's looking great Zee!

OK, so now you've proved you can file nice round corners, you can use the RT again 
I know what you mean about marks from the vise - I also need to do the copper/aluminium jaw clip-ons for mine...

Hope the sore knee don't keep you from making the rear wheels for too long; that little loco is just begging to be on all fours now.

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Dean.
Thanks Dennis. Knee is better today...yet it's raining like the dickens.
Thanks Arnold...and because of the extreme pressure you're putting on me I decided to work on the axle and bearings...






First try at this kind of press fit. It got there but not without problems and some boogering. Axle didn't fit as well as before so had to do some sanding. Very light though.

Bigger issue is that this showed I do have a problem with the alignment of the tailstock. The first bearing fits more loosely than the second. I made them off the same piece of brass...sticking out about 1/2". Made the first and then the second without moving the stock. So the first one was out further. I think I've got taper.

I hope to do the drive wheels next. Also need to start on the cylinders.






I've been told by a number of people that I wear a tutu much better than the little guy there.


----------



## bearcar1

Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

yes but the pumps don't go with that outfit and you forgot the broach. ;D
BC1
Jim


----------



## vlmarshall

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> yes but the pumps don't go with that outfit and you forgot the broach. ;D



Don't encourage him!  :big:

Great LOCOMOTIVE PARTS, Zeep!


----------



## bearcar1

Yes, of course. You're right Vernon, I should concentrate more upon the machine work. *hrump*,nice bushings Zeep,*snicker*and your filing skills are becoming *chortle* honed. Bwahahaaaaa! I can't stand it anymore! That is just too funny. :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## Philjoe5

Good progress Zee. I know I'm going to see you run this loco at a Rough & Tumble show in Kinzers, PA, right 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Deanofid

It looks good, Zee. Loco is coming along nice too.

Dean


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee; nice axle & bushings.

No comment on the tutu though :big:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks all.

As for the tutu..the tease act is over. From here out it'll cost and the tickets are pricey. No trades...is cash only. It's too bad that none of you can afford it. However, for $5 I'll be glad to send that green tutu...free shipping! (Cash only, no warranty.)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Today was about the Rear Section of the frame...that...and a lot of good luck.

The rear section has a tab that gets bent 90 degrees. To do that, the instructions suggested a die block and blade in a vise. Sort of a miniature brake.

The next two pics show the die block being made. After cutting nearly to size, I flipped the part and took another pass.












The next pic shows the rear section, the die block and the blade.






To make the blade, I used the angle vise again. 45 degree...cut one side then flip and cut the other. You'd think the point would be at center of the blade. You'd be right if you were the one doing it. I must not have seated it the same way.

A few notes about the rear section. I hacksawed most of the corner and then used an end mill. This was after I drilled the hole in the tab and cut out the opening. This left very little support for the (now two) tabs...the end mill bent one out. I managed to straighten it out somewhat but you can see the bend depending on how the light hits it.

I also tried using a hacksaw to cut the tiny slots on either side of the tab. Also a mistake...no way to keep it straight. I went to a slitting saw. That went so well that I realized I should have use a slitting saw to knock off the corners in the first place...and probably before I drilled the hole in the tab.

Here's a pic of the 'brake' system...






As I'd said, I didn't get the center of the blade right but I adjusted for that when I set the height of the blade with parallels and shims. Still, disaster struck. Perhaps the rear section was cut too short, or the die block was wrong, but I could tell that I was going to get some interference. Still, I pressed on (sorry ;D couldn't help myself)...

I took it slow and this was the result...






Sorry it's so fuzzy. In any case, the bend wasn't occurring where it should. In fact, it was bending across the middle of two holes used to mount the thing. Some severe marks too.

I went to the vise and after some (imaginative) manual work I managed to straighten it. The machine marks are hidden by the stretcher...so I was lucky.

Here it is mounted..






I tried putting the one handrail stud on but the threads are crummy. Probably because I messed up the die. I've got one on order.

Well this was a long day...not a great part...but some good learnings.


----------



## mklotz

I hate to keep recommending tools for you to buy but, in this case, it's worthwhile...

These...

http://www.micromark.com/DELUXE-BENDING-DIE-SET-4-,8226.html

are available from many suppliers. They're cheap, easy to use and can handle many of the bending jobs you'll encounter making the small scale stuff we make.

You'll be doing a lot of sheet metal bending and there's no need to try to make a brake for each job that comes up.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. That looks like a nice tool and seems reasonably priced.


----------



## Artie

This looks to be going beautifully Zee, if you hadnt been mentioning the slight mishaps, no one would ever know. The finish looks great as well, keep it up...

and you know that as soon as you have a running loco you will need track, and lots of it, you wont be happy with just a circle... it'll be all over the house..... a monster..... :


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Artie...I like to mention the mishaps so anyone thinking about starting this hobby knows a lot of learning comes from making mistakes. And if anyone avoids making the same mistake because of one of my posts..well...that's a big win.

You're right about the track. ;D I've got the okay for outside track and inside track is fine too...so long as it stays downstairs...but all of that is a way off.

Which reminds me...I should start thinking about a test bed. Wow! The optimism!


----------



## Artie

Just a thought, you can then build a fleet (terminology?) of loco's and have switching gear and shunting sidings.... its endless..... oh:


----------



## bearcar1

Looking good Z', I do admire it when someone points out the shortfalls of steps that have been attempted and do not end in shining successes. However, seeing the results of all of your efforts is a reward onto itself. I thank you for having the courage and foresight to share. Well done indeed! BRAVO!



BC1
Jim


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee ;D

And credit to you for making up a bending brake; for me thus far bending brakes consisted purely of a vise and hammer :-[ 

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Artie  said:
			
		

> you can then build a fleet (terminology?) of loco's and...



My dream is to eventually build a larger scale loco...probably 'garden rail scale'. (The full dream is to build one that can pull me...but that's more doubtful.) A 'fleet' of garden rail would be pretty cool.

Thanks Jim. Much appreciated.

Thanks Arnold. I'll have another chance to learn how to use the brake when I make the fuel tank.

Here's this week's offering...

The two porting blocks, two gaskets, and the stretcher that the pistons and porting blocks attach to.






While the 1/16 rod that came with the kit was too large for the handrail studs...it was too small to be used for plugs in the porting blocks. The dimension for the holes in the blocks is .063 -0/+.003. I suppose I should have made the holes smaller. However, I had recently bought some .072 rod at the hobby shop so I sanded that down in the lathe and was able to press fit them in. I've only put the two plugs in that have been milled flush to the point you can't see them. The other two are used as keys...I could probably loctite the 1/16 rod in for those.

Now I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to turn the drive wheels. I have a 3" chuck...too small for the 1.5" wheel. I tried the reverse jaws but they are too big. If I set the part in further, I can do the trepanning but not the turning.

I'm thinking this calls for using the 4-jaw. I welcome any other suggestions.

"A bigger lathe." and "A bigger chuck.", has already been suggested but quickly dismissed. Her response of "Are you kidding!" is still reverberating off the walls. ;D I was smart to ask from down here.


----------



## ksouers

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> "A bigger lathe." and "A bigger chuck.", has already been suggested but quickly dismissed. Her response of "Are you kidding!" is still reverberating off the walls. ;D I was smart to ask from down here.



Never ask! Just do... then beg forgiveness later ;D
(don't forget to say it was on sale!)


It's really coming along great, zee! Shouldn't be too long before we see a test run, huh?


----------



## Philjoe5

Looks good Zee. Great progress. Starting to look like a loco.

Any chance you could "sneak" a new, bigger lathe into the basement? Once you get it down there, I found that the liberal use of sulfur containing cutting oil keeps most folks out of the man-cave. ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> "A bigger lathe." and "A bigger chuck.", has already been suggested but quickly dismissed. Her response of "Are you kidding!" is still reverberating off the walls. ;D I was smart to ask from down here.



Zee,

My better half and most women I know, will usually argue about a, (to me), unnecessary purchase after the fact.

It only took me 60 odd years and 2 marriages to grasp this particular nettle.

You could try gloves, body armour, or a whip and a chair, (like tiger tamers of old).

Good Luck

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kevin...but 'asking for forgiveness' later assumes one has the opportunity to grovel.

Thanks Phil....no...no chance I can sneak a bigger lathe in...she's still upset that I tore up my knee moving the bandsaw and has become vigilant. Right...now she's paying attention to what I'm doing. Rats. ;D

Bob...if I'm lucky to get in 3 seconds before she throttles me...a bottle of wine will usually get me a reprieve. I'm a lucky guy...don't need diamonds or flowers...and I get to share the wine. ;D

And now for the progress report...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Bum-ness paid a visit today...and spent the afternoon with me...

First up was a connector used for testing the boiler. (Did I say I hate 1018? I hate 1018.) All went well until it was time to mill the sides of the connector. I'm not sure what I did wrong...maybe taking too much of a bite...maybe speed/feed was wrong...but oh boy...did things go awry. Somehow the part got pulled out of collet so I was cutting where I didn't want to. On the second try, I couldn't understand why, for every change in Z...there was hardly any change in cut. Ah...been there...done that...I hadn't tightened the drawbar...(I'd like to blame my daughter for interrupting me). Eventually I got it done. Luckily...it's not a part that stays on the model.

Then I used my new 0-80 die to finish the handrail studs. This went far better than last time. I'm starting to convince myself that buying kits is worthless...at least 3 times now...a replacement tool has been better quality than when bought in a kit.

Also cut the tubing for the handrails. (I won't mention the fact that I cut the first piece off the wrong tubing and must now make a trip to the hobby shop. 'bum-ness' was reminding me that it came for coffee and cookies.)

So here's the pieces...hand rail studs (some shown with the nuts that came with the kit) and the connector...






Happy? Not yet. 'bum-ness' wanted more coffee...






I can not believe it...the holes for the handrail studs are in the wrong position. The near handrail is clearly too far away from the back of the cabin...the far handrail shows what I mean.

I have a few of options:

a) Stay with the far side hand rail....and not attach to frame.
b) Stay with the near side hand rail...and not attach to frame.
c) Hide the hand rails in the back yard and pretend they don't exist.
d) Take what's left of my marbles and go home. (But I'm already home.)
e) Drill some more holes in the floor and mount the hand rails properly.
f) Delete this post and pretend nothing happened.

Poo.


----------



## Shopguy

You could plug and redrill. Is the floor of the station to be painted? A bit of JB Weld can hide a myriad of sins. 
It's coming along real nice.
Regards
Ernie J


----------



## bearcar1

Heya Zeep, why not simply rotate the near one 180* so it is a mirror of the opposite side and call it a day. So it now becomes a rear entry ( ) cabin as opposed to one that gets stepped into towards the front. That or make up a pair of new handrails and move on. Too bad, those tiny holes are a son of a gun to drill. (don't you know it already)

BC1
Jim


----------



## vlmarshall

Yeah, what's wrong with the far handrail? You've improved it, in my ever-so-valuable opinion. ;D


----------



## ksouers

Zee,
I'd have to agree with BC1, just flip the near handrail and make it rear entry. Then the build will be uniquely yours.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Ernie, Jim, Vernon, and Kevin. That's exactly what I was thinking...drill some new holes in the front of the cabin and mount the hand rail like the far one in the pic.

I was having dinner with the family tonight and had brought up the loco to show them my progress and 'disaster'...all through dinner I was looking at it. And looking at it...and looking at it...something was bothering me...something wasn't right...

Darn it...'bum-ness' had paid an earlier visit and I hadn't noticed. Is probably why I got a second visit. If you look at the front of the loco...the plate that holds the front buffers/bumpers...it's mounted 0.1 too high!!! How can that be? (Don't answer that...I know why.) Rats Rats and Rats. ;D


----------



## vlmarshall

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...the plate that holds the front buffers/bumpers...it's mounted 0.1 too high!!! How can that be? (Don't answer that...I know why.) Rats Rats and Rats.



Heh,heh.


----------



## PaulG

Hey Zee, you could mount some "O" scale marker lights in the cab back holes...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Nice idea Paul! Thanks.

Vernon..."Quiet you."


----------



## bearcar1

Now wait a minute here Zeep, I've just been going back and forth between photos of your build and what if you removed the cabin floor and rotated it 180* and drilled new holes for mounting it back down, using now two holes in the rear  (man that doesn't sound good) and one in the front, just the opposite of what is there now. Then your handrail problem would be corrected at least. Sorry about the front fender, that one may take a bit of work. Maybe fabricate a new,deeper, brass cross member that would allow for the fender to be mounted using the same holes rather than re-drilling and having that scar showing.

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Yeah....thought about that Jim...but then I'd have 4 holes (two each side), very obviously wanting to be filled (man that doesn't sound good). I'm kind of liking the idea of reversing the hand rails. The two holes in the rear plate of the cabin can be left open or, as Paul suggested, used to mount some lights or something.

As for the front plate...I haven't checked if the boiler interferes with it...if not...then I'm leaving it alone...otherwise...I'll drill two more holes...move it down...and not tell anyone. ;D

Okay okay...I went and looked...Ah ha! 'Bum-ness' must have left the building! It looks like the boiler is mounted 'this' side of the front plate! I shouldn't have to move it! Well...we'll see.

I know 'Bum-ness' will return...but that's okay...we're old friends. ;D


----------



## joe d

Zee

You could use your extra holes at the rear for mounting some nice brass grab-rails. As to the front plate issue, just grind down your track by 0.1 :big:

Looking good so far, keep it up! We want MORE.

Cheers, Joe


----------



## Deanofid

Oh, Zee... "Bum-ness" does not play favorites. He's been to my house lots.  (IOW, my box of scrap is bigger than yours. Neener, neener.).
He's not getting you to make the same mistakes over and over!

Glad the front bumper/plate/thing will work out. For the handrails, I'd make the near one like the far one, and have it look like it's supposed to be that way. I mean, just flip that top rail, or make a second one, and leave the uprights alone. But, it's your potty.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

joe d  said:
			
		

> You could use your extra holes at the rear for mounting some nice brass grab-rails. As to the front plate issue, just grind down your track by 0.1



I was liking the grab-rail idea...and then I read the rest. You funny guy you. ;D Thanks Joe.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> "Bum-ness" does not play favorites. He's been to my house lots.



Well...that's a bummer. ;D
"Neener?" You made a "Neener" at me? No one "Neeners" me. I'll get ya...and your little 'Neen' too.

So I 'fixed' the handrails by just drilling a hole in the front of the cab and mounting them 'backwards' to the plan. However, I'm thinking this is the way they belong. Why would I step up into the fire side of the cab? I was just talking to someone...(the guy with the initials 'r', 'a', 't')...about the last scene in "Back to the Future III". The whole family comes up to the front of the cab where the firebox is. Hm.

Managed the drive wheels. 1018 steel. This went easier than the front wheels (aluminum) but I think it's because of the learning I got. I should have done the axle after the wheels. But a touch on it allowed a nice close fit. Again, I used the rotary table and collets to drill the spoke holes...but I had to remove the chuck in order to switch out to a chuck to drill the small hole for the crank pin.

The downside was deburring the spoke holes. I used a larger drill bit and tried to deburr by hand. Kind of choppy. I may go back with some sand paper and a dowel to make it look better.







Went by the hobby store and picked up one straight length of O-27 track.






Still a lot to do...fuel tank, pistons and cylinders, and the boiler! It wouldn't take so long if I didn't have to watch out for rodents or Neeners. And...now that the weather is improving...the basement seems to be attracting wild life again.


----------



## mklotz

Deburring small holes...

Save your small broken center drills. Make a handle to hold them (e.g., 3/8" rod). They work well.

Never discard any broken drill, endmill, tap. There's always something useful you can make from them. As another example, broken taps can be ground down to one remaining "tooth" and used for internal single point threading.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Good tips. I've been saving everything...even the drill bit that looks like a 'J'. ;D

Seriously though...to do the safety valve and possibly the burners...I'm thinking to grind one of the busted drill bits and use it as a...gasp...'D' reamer. Not sure yet...I haven't checked the dimensions...although that's the suggestion for making the safety valve.

Think I'm kidding about the 'J' bit? Here it is...






I don't remember the circumstances...but nothing was soiled.


----------



## bearcar1

Gees Z', The "M" guy looks like he's wielding a crowbar......... It's a RUMBLE!!!

BC1
Jim


----------



## Philjoe5

With the loco sitting on that piece of track it's official - it's a loco for sure.

But now I'm confused ??? Is the penny in the photo a real one or a bogus eBay blowup? :

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Troutsqueezer

All those steel parts, Zee. I remember you had some trepidation about machining steel. Looks like you're up the learning curve by at least two time constants. 

Next one twice as big?

-Trout


----------



## Deanofid

That looks fab, Zee. Sitting on the bit of rail, it's looking just as it should.. Very good.
I'm likin' it so much!

Dunno what kind of bits you bought there, but if you can bend one in that shape, it must not be very hard stuff. It shoulda broke!


neener!!

Dean(er)


----------



## Deanofid

OH, and you know what else?
The handrails really should be like you made them, so when you put your foot up, if you slip, you won't be right in front of the rolling wheel, what will cut your toes off. 'Course, if it's pulling cars, you're going to be in a bad way...

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jim.



			
				Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> Is the penny in the photo a real one ... ?



Thanks Phil. No...it's a photo of a real one. ;D (It's real...stolen from my daughter.)

Thanks Dean. Sure...let's all jump up onto a moving train. ;D
Yeah it does seem the bit should've broke! Hm.
Keep those neeners coming and those 3000 miles between us won't matter. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Couldn't stand seeing your thread drop to page two, Zee;


Neener.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Argh.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Couldn't stand seeing your thread drop to page two, Zee;



Nice way of saying I'm not busy? Well I am...planning. Remember?

Hey Vernon...you might not be the only one in your class. :big:

Can't complain about the pics though. Nice stuff. I hope you're the one that did them. ;D

Hey everyone...go visit Dean's website...leave a message...tell him "Neenee" sent you. Let me know if you need any suggestions for a 'message'.

Maybe we both have a little too much time on our hands? :big:


----------



## joe d

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Argh....tell him "Neenee" sent you.



Does this mean that when you're wearing your Tutu you are Ninette?

I'm scared. Really really scared. ( :big


----------



## zeeprogrammer

When I'm in my tutu...I'm in my fightin' garb...so yeah...be scared.

But I'm talking about 'fighting off'...not 'getting it on'. Unless you got money....you planning an untoward advance?

I look good! I do! 291 people thought so. (40 years ago.)

You know what I think this is about? I think Dean is after my tutu. But it won't help him.

By the way, whether in my tutu or not...it's 'Mister'.

Sincerely,

Mister Zee


----------



## Deanofid

Okay then; "Mister" Tutu. (Have it your way, sport). 
Things seem to be livened up a tad, so I got rid of all that junk cluttering up your nice little thread.

You know, putting me in the same class as someone who owes you beer is hitting below the... tutu. 
An' I'll tell you another thing or two, too; 
No... I'll save it for later.

Now, I've got work to do. There are other nice people here that I haven't harassed for far too long.

Dean,
one of the knights who says "neener".


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, that little loco is looking great sitting there on the track :bow:

 ;D - a different perspective on tutu... In Afrikaans we have a saying "toe toe" which which is pronounced exactly the same as tutu - and it means "hurry up & get a move on" 

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Was that your boot Arnold? Ow. ;D (And thanks for the compliment.)

Dean...that wasn't nice putting goodies (it wasn't junk) in my thread and then taking them away. You're still on my crumbs list. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Surly you don't want 'em back?
It was just a tease/taunt for one of the best/good-natured tutu men on the forum.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> for one of the best/good-natured tutu men on the forum.



So it's only the tutu that sets me apart from the rest of you?
We can fix that!
Care to join and increase the group? :big:
I saw your photo. We might wear the same size!

And thanks.


----------



## Deanofid

No thanks, fella. Would probably give a guy a rash.

Besides, rumor is you wear it so well..

Dean


----------



## Metal Butcher

Oh brother. Why did I click on this. :

http://tutugirl.com/


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Oh brother. Why did I click on this.



For you seek truth and, as your signature says...

"In Constant Pursuit of Perfection"

Is the problem color? Do you just need help choosing a color? Nah...can't be that...you choose well for your engines. Must be the material. I have the same problem. Maybe we can get Dean to offer up some helpful opinion.

P.S. Right outfit but wrong gender and age. You need to look for 'manly-tutus'. Marv knows what to look for...
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8152.30


----------



## Metal Butcher

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> For you seek truth and, as your signature says...
> 
> "In Constant Pursuit of Perfection"
> 
> Is the problem color? Do you just need help choosing a color? Nah...can't be that...you choose well for your engines. Must be the material. I have the same problem. Maybe we can get Dean to offer up some helpful opinion.
> 
> P.S. Right outfit but wrong gender and age. You need to look for 'manly-tutus'. Marv knows what to look for...
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8152.30



Thanks Zee, but I'll pass on the 'help'. My costume of choice is motorcycle riding gear. I play the role of a tough road warrior riding his Iron horse. 8)

The only problem I have is visualizing how you must look in your Tutu. My friends and I would really like to see you in person and wearing it, drop on by real soon. There is usually about 3000 (three thousand) of us that get together, so I'm sure you'll make at least a few new friends, and be the center of attention. We meet on Wednesday's at the following location. When you walk in just yell out loudly, "I'm here to see the Butcher," and start singing "Who stole the Kishka." (Kishka is a type of sausage). You'll get the 'Royal' treatment, and I assure you that it will be a memorable occasion! ;D

P.S. Also, I'm glad you and Marvin share the same passion, and I'm happy for the both of you! 

http://www.quakersteakandlube.com/qsl/promotions_events.cfm

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0vNhWf7ks[/ame]

-MB


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> P.S. Right outfit but wrong gender and age. You need to look for 'manly-tutus'. Marv knows what to look for...
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8152.30



Aye yi yi. So glad I'm not a computer geek. Wish I'd had a blind fold.

Dean

(so, who knows how to spell aye yi yi, anyway?)


----------



## johnthefish

Zee, don't you dare change your avatar,that is what you are and you can't change it.I remember when I was that age,you look the sensible sort of kid that I could have been mates with . Good thread.Watching closely ...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> and I assure you that it will be a memorable occasion!



For who? The bikers? Or that smear in the middle of the road? :big: If they're all like you MB...no problem.

As for visualizing...I have an idea...I can take Dean's picture...and a pic of the tutu...and....

Thanks 'johnthefish'. I see that's your second post. Did I miss the first? In any case...welcome to the forum. Please don't take this thread as representative of the fine workmanship of this forum. ;D

Speaking of 'thread'...does anyone remember what this one is about?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Anybody remember where we were? Let's see...
bikers...tutus...M&Ms...rashes...Ah! must be machining...







Managed to make the cylinders.

Not a great weekend...fell down the stairs for the 3rd time last Thursday. I really need to figure out a way to convince her I should move my shop from the basement to the living room. (Keep your own suggestions, like "Don't fall", to yourselves.)

Was fine until Friday when my back realized what had happened.
Getting up is painful but once up and about I'm okay.
Was a real lousy Saturday. Because of my misdeeds last year (I let the garden go to seed when wife went on assignment) I had promised to help prep the garden this year. This made the back even unhappier and the recently operated on knee made it's unhappiness known as well.

I'd probably be fine with all this if I knew the cylinders were good. But I suspect my tailstock is not true and the holes will be tapered.

Well we'll see. Oh I know how I can feel better! I'll increase my intake of M&Ms...which is another way of saying...I'll disregard certain persons' advice. :big:


----------



## ksouers

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Not a great weekend...fell down the stairs for the 3rd time last Thursday. I really need to figure out a way to convince her I should move my shop from the basement to the living room. (Keep your own suggestions, like "Don't fall", to yourselves.)



Quit drinking.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Well we'll see. Oh I know how I can feel better! I'll increase my intake of M&Ms...which is another way of saying...I'll disregard certain persons' advice. :big:



Start drinking.



 ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Quit drinking.



 Rof} Rof} Rof}

Did you say quit breathing?

I should probably give a few more details...

The first time I fell was when we moved into the house 15 years ago. It was dark, I took a right turn thinking I was walking into the foyer. At the bottom of the stairs the thought process was...
1) What happened?
2) Am I hurt?
3) Idiot.
The second time was last year shortly after I built up the shop in the basement. Daughter came home with a cat. I was trying to go downstairs and quickly closing the door so the cat wouldn't come downstairs. That time I knew what was happening so the thought process was...
1) Am I hurt?
2) Idiot.
The third time I was rushing to get on the forum before I had to go to work...
1) Idiot.

I'm sure you all see the theme.


----------



## Kermit

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm sure you all see the theme.



Yeah! You need a house without any stairs!  ;D


----------



## bearcar1

Rof} Rof} Rof} 


Am glad you are OK Zeep', and be careful with that knee, you don't want to screw it up really bad this time around. What is it that makes you think the cylinders have a taper? 


BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

Man oh man, Zee. Getting _to_ the shop has turned out more dangerous than all the sharp bits _in_ the shop. Take it easy, there. Maybe remove that tutu too, so you can see your feet going down the stairs. Try a leotard. 

Now, those cylinders sure do look the part, and very nice! I take it you reamed them? Probably just fine.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Yeah! You need a house without any stairs!



Not so far fetched! It's an important part of discussion with wife about next house. But we're both from the midwest...and a house without a basement is like a ship without a lifeboat. Even though we now live in Pennsylvania where they think these little dust-devils are tornadoes. :big:



			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> be careful with that knee, you don't want to screw it up really bad this time around. What is it that makes you think the cylinders have a taper?



Thanks Jim.

Well for one...the previous cylinders I've made (3) have exhibited a taper where the piston is loose at one end but tighter at the other. For another, after I center drill and then drill, the drill seems off center...you can see how it moves into the hole made by the center drill.

I've checked the true-ness with dead centers...I think the tailstock is a tad high. I'm not sure what I can do about that. It's a mini-lathe and I don't see a way to shim the headstock. Trimming the tailstock is beyond my skill set. I also suspect some sideways off-center. When I got my lathe I checked with an indicator and chucking reamer...but that was before I knew anything at all about what I was doing.

Another area of concern is the mounting of the lathe. It's bolted to a table I built. I'm wondering if I bolted it such that I've stressed the ways.

Lot's to look at.

Dean! I see you posted while I was typing. Well here's a picture for you...I wasn't in my tutu. It was first thing in the morning...I was carrying my first cup of coffee...and I was still in my pajamas (aka whites ;D and now that you know what I look like...ain't that a pretty picture?)

I did ream the the cylinders. In fact I'm wondering how I can polish them...or whether I need to.

[EDIT: You still trying to get me out of my tutu?]


----------



## Troutsqueezer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> after I center drill and then drill, the drill seems off center...you can see how it moves into the hole made by the center drill.



I get that a lot using my mini mill and have yet to figure out why that is. I'm thinking maybe the drill bit I follow up with doesn't have the point ground to center? In any case, once tilted into the center drilled hole it will drill at a slight angle which is frustrating.

Those cylinders sure look nice there, Zee-Meister.

-Trout


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Trout.

Today was one of those days that make you question whether you should change jobs or not. I came home pretty upset. Okay...stinking upset. I mean P.O.'d.

So I didn't think I'd be doing anything machining wise. But I was already bummed about wasting away last night so I went at it. And I'm glad I did...I'm still pretty pissed...but at least I managed to accomplish something on my own terms. You all know what that means.







These are the cylinder covers. They are a press fit into the cylinder. I was pleased that I managed to turn them to the required diameter.

The problem was the little vent hole (0.04). Initially I tried mounting the part in the vise. That was a mistake. Crushed the sides just a tad. You might be able to tell...it's the right one. Instead I fell back on the great teachings and experience of this forum...and made a split collet from aluminum. Then it was easy.

I'm running out of lathe parts and getting closer to doing the boiler. That should be fun. All according to plan! The weather will be warm enough for me to try my hand at silver soldering outside...or at least in the garage. I didn't relish doing it in the basement...not until I have some experience. And you all know how well I do with stairs so a fast escape can't be counted on. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

I hope making chips took some of the crumbs out of your day, Zee.
The caps turned out nice. 

Careful on those stairs, and chin up!

Dean


----------



## tmuir

Looking great Zee.
I hope tomorrow goes better for you at work too.


----------



## steamboatmodel

Hi Zee,
Silver Soldering and testing burners is best done outside even when mobility is not an issue. 
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I hope making chips took some of the crumbs out of your day



Thanks Dean...the chips did.



			
				tmuir  said:
			
		

> I hope tomorrow goes better for you at work too.



Thanks tmuir It didn't. ;D



			
				steamboatmodel  said:
			
		

> Silver Soldering and testing burners is best done outside even when mobility is not an issue.



Thanks Gerald. Yeah...outside is my first choice. 2nd choice is the garage near the open doors.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A little done today...the pivot pins and the piston rod ends.

I'm pretty happy with the pivot pins...nice close fit in two places...the cylinder and the porting blocks. Also happy that this time I got the screwdriver slot well centered. Used the 5C collet blocks and was happy again that I'd gotten them. (Thanks Marv!)

I was a little confused about the piston rod ends because the drawing didn't show the hole for the crank pins. I found that reference in an assembly drawing...the holes get drilled after they are pressed onto the rods.






Thanks for looking.


----------



## Foozer

Your moving right along on that. Looking First Cabin.

Watch them stairs

Robert


----------



## Philjoe5

Looks good Zee. Nice work on some small parts. Thanks for posting.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## arnoldb

WOW Zee, you're really stepping up :bow:
Great looking parts - you're definitely turning Pro now!



> Thanks for looking.


That's always a pleasure ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## RobWilson

Hi Zee 

WOW :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: looking great 

Regards Rob


----------



## bearcar1

Nicely done Z'. You have most definitely "come a long way baby" and I do not mean to reference nicotine ads either. (remember those? what brand?) : ;D

BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

Again Zee, you're making excellent progress, and things are looking so well made. 
Those screwdriver slots can be touchy. Ya done good, (on everything).

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Got nothing done today but I wanted to respond to everyone's kind words.

Thanks Robert. And I do watch the stairs...flying by. ;D When you change the units from 6 feet to 6 inches...you get a whole different perspective.

Thanks Phil.

Thanks Arnold. Long long way to Pro.

Thanks Rob.

Thanks Jim...I'm thinking Virginia Slims. I remember when they came out.

Thanks Dean. I enjoyed doing those screwdriver slots. Vernon was a big help some time ago with using a slitting saw.

Couldn't bring myself to do anything today. My mind has been on work work. That will change shortly (at least for a while)...both daughters are here, wife is home from Europe, and everyone is preparing a fantastic Easter dinner.

I'm starving.

Happy Easter everyone.


----------



## cfellows

Hey Zee, you're really doing a nice job on those parts, but I keep waiting for the boiler. When are you going to start the boiler?  

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

cfellows  said:
			
		

> but I keep waiting for the boiler. When are you going to start the boiler?



Ah...the plan is working. I figured I could keep stringing people along if I held out on the boiler. :big:

I could argue I've started. I have a bit of wood dowel I'm going to use to help support the drain pipe while I cut it.

Step 1 is to sand it down so it fits inside the drain pipe.
...darn...
Step 1a is go to the store and buy some sandpaper.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, how much is the dowel over size ? - it might be easier to just turn it down to size with a sharp toolbit in the lathe. From paste experience with sandpaper made for wood - even the high quality wood paper sheds a lot of grit when used...

Just my 2 cents...

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

The dowel almost fits. In fact it goes in about 1.5" before things tighten to the point I worry about getting it out. I've thought about turning it but I've never turned wood before and doubt I can support and center it well enough. Too much cut and there might be too much space between the dowel and pipe.

I think it's close enough to sand by hand so I don't need to worry about grit and the machines.

Thanks!


----------



## b.lindsey

Its coming along very well Zee. Can't wait to see this little guy run! Keep up all the good work

Bill


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill.

Well...in my last post I said I wanted to sand the dowel down rather than turning it because of the need to support and center it.

All day I've been thinking about that...

Well not that actually...

What I'd been thinking is I'd come home and find one of you fine fellows reminding me that I'd have to do that in order to trim the pipe. That's the whole point of having the dowel!!!

But aha...it's 'this' fine fellow who gets to say 'dolt'.

To late for you but keep your eyes open...I provide many opportunities.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, you need to go buy some solder and flux before you can start that boiler, right?
That will take most of an afternoon...

Just want to make sure you have enough rope.

Dean


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> To late for you but keep your eyes open...I provide many opportunities.



WE KNOW. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Philjoe5

> To late for you but keep your eyes open...I provide many opportunities.



We'll be watching very closely now. I'm keeping one of these oh: handy.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> you need to go buy some solder and flux before you can start that boiler
> Just want to make sure you have enough rope.



solder...check
flux...check
rope...check



			
				Maryak  said:
			
		

> WE KNOW.



Argh. Fortunately the basement fridge is 4 ft from me. I'll just go get some ice for my forehead after walking into that one. Ah...better yet...there's some cold ones in there I can use both externally and internally.



			
				Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> We'll be watching very closely now.



You weren't before? I'm bummed. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I had no plans to do any machining tonight...but it called to me.
Or was it you guys pushing me?
In any case...the work day was good...so I thought I'd have a go.

Here's the pipe mounted in the lathe on the dowel. I centered it as best I could but I wasn't too concerned since I all wanted to do is trim...







Here's the one end trimmed off...






As slow as I went...I stalled the motor a couple of times.

I had a whiff of something familiar...but it eluded me...for the moment. (And it's not what you think...I know that smell very well.) Here's the other end trimmed.






Ah...the smell...yes...very familiar...I was a kid...piece of wood...woodburning tool in my hand...burning pictures...wait...wrong hobby...

And the final picture of...what? Boiler? Pipe? Drain? More rope?


----------



## cobra428

That's looking great Zee

Tony


----------



## Philjoe5

Very cool Zee. Now I can go back to watching just closely. ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## bearcar1

Looking good Z', I do like the step-down in the tube, it lends itself to the look of one of the older locomotive boiler shells. Kewl 8)

BC1
Jim


----------



## slick95

Very Nice Zee

Following along closely   

Jeff


----------



## Deanofid

Looking good, Zee. You had me going with the smell thing.

Sy:
"Hey Gert, did you ever smell a clown?"

Gert:
"No Sy. What do they smell like?"

Sy:
"Oh, you know. They smell kinda... funny."

G'nite, folks.

Dean


----------



## Maryak

Very neat Zee, :bow: :bow:

I thought the burning smell may have been high speed flatulence. 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## SBWHART

Very nice Zee great finish on your engine,

As for burning smell in the shop:- I've been known to set fire/melt things when using my propane torch:- not recommended.

Have fun

Stew


----------



## tmuir

Cool, I love the look the chrome gives it.


----------



## kustomkb

Looking really good Zee.

Nice work!


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
I just thought about it but when tmuir said chrome.....I went oh s....t, I don't think you can solder to chrome plating. Maybe you can, I never tried. Watch out for the fumes if you try.

Tony


----------



## rickhann

Zee, I just happened acros this thread. Your work looks really good. I constructed a model of "Dickens" years ago. I used a piece of brass drain pipe for the boiler. It would run under steam while supported, but did not have enough power to pull itself. I don't know where I read it, but these small boilers are very sensitive to being over-constructed. By that, I mean a thicker boiler shell is not necessarily better. I came to the conclusion that I needed to construct another boiler using a thinner boiler shell thickness (thinwall brass tubing). That is still on my to do list. Hopefully, yours will steam O.K., but if you have problems with steam production, you may want to keep this in mind. Rick


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Carl Thm:

What did you use as cutting fluid ? - I see two tell-tale marks of spotted stripes behind the lathe on the wood... If it was oil and your better half's doing the laundry, she might complain :big:

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> Now I can go back to watching just closely.



Just happy that you're watching. ;D

Thanks Jim!

Thanks Jeff!

Ah Dean. So you're a stand-up comedian wanna-be eh? Stick to machining. ;D



			
				Maryak  said:
			
		

> I thought the burning smell may have been high speed flatulence.



No no. I'm very careful when it comes to that. I'm well acquainted with Newton..."for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

Thanks Stew.
Thanks tmuir.
Thanks kustomkb.



			
				cobra428  said:
			
		

> I don't think you can solder to chrome plating.



I think you're right although I have no experience there. But the instructions have me sand off the chrome at the ends. That should be interesting to get that right. Thanks for the warning about fumes. I'll be doing this outside.

Thanks rickhann. Oh I'm sure there will be many reasons why I don't get steam up. ;D Thanks for the warning though. The kit uses a purchased drain vent pipe. How thin is thin?



			
				arnoldb  said:
			
		

> I see two tell-tale marks of spotted stripes behind the lathe on the wood... If it was oil and your better half's doing the laundry, she might complain



Hey Arnold. Well then...I'm sure you see the big stain underneath from all the prior work! And regardless of what I'm doing...change 'might' to 'will' and you'll begin to understand her. Not to worry though! After 34 years of marriage...my grovelling is unsurpassed! I should write a book..."How to get out of trouble"...I'd make millions. And if you believe that...I also have this bridge for sale. (That relates to method 1: pay her off.)

Man I hope I get time in the shop this weekend. She's ordered 7 yards of mushroom soil that I have to help distribute...I have to till the garden...open the pool...babysit...

Doesn't anyone want to buy that bridge? Cheap!


----------



## cfellows

Aaahhh, and I was just about to ping you on a boiler status update! That looks suspiciously like a chrome plated brass drain pipe. Very nice! This is really getting interesting.

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Yep Chuck. It is a chrome plated brass drain pipe. Well not anymore. ;D




Stuck. Was going to start turning the end caps for the boiler. They're brass. But my chuck is too small. The jaws fall out when I try to move them out to diameter. I think the reverse jaws won't work either...the part will be to far inside.

The two alternatives I have is to go for the 4-jaw or buy a bigger 3-jaw chuck. If I use the 4-jaw...I'm thinking I can do the trepanning and then move to the 3-jaw and grip from the inside to turn the OD a touch and face the back.

I don't think I can get a purchase past my wife. I haven't paid the spring-time dues (gardening) yet.

Any other thoughts?


----------



## bearcar1

Howdy Z', I'm not sure what length of brass you have to work with but what about soft soldering a short stub on to the back side of what I assume is a disk and go on about your merry way. The trepanning could be accomplished and the part reheated and removed. Hope this is a help to you, I'd hate to see progress being held up due to a lack of equipment, not to mention the serious injury :hDe: that could befall such charming lad as yourself should the bride find out about a stray purchase. :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

Use the 4J. It will give you a better grip than you can get with the 3J.

In the (likely) event that the workpiece is thinner than the jaw thickness, back the wp with a ring or similar so that it is supported against the (axial) forces of a trepanning cut.

Aside: Whenever possible collect offcuts of various diameter pipe to make just these sorts of spacers. (I have a box with about a dozen different sizes.) 

One can unwittingly exert a lot of force with the jaws of a 4J. It's very easy to mark brass workpieces. Use some shims to prevent denting finished surfaces.


----------



## Deanofid

I think Marv has your solution, Zee. Or, make a split collet from aluminum, (or whatever) and use the outside three jaw, and have at it. That way, you won't have to concern yourself with jaw marks, either.

What are the dimensions of the caps?

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jim. That's a method I've seen in other threads but never think about on my own. I have some practicing to do with soldering before I can work on the fuel tank and boiler...so I've made a sticky note to remind me to try your suggestion.

Thanks Marv. That was what I did when I worked the drive wheels. I now have 3 spacers in my collection. When I made the space for the drive wheel I drilled a hole in the center so it was easier to drill and ream the hole in the wheel.

Thanks Dean. I've tried the split collet approach twice now with no luck (on other parts). Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I suspect the hole needs to be a closer fit to the part. I set the collet such that the split is centered between two jaws...I wouldn't think placing it closer to a jaw would help in anyway? (And I'm sure placing it under a jaw would be stupid. ;D )

By the way...if I made the collet it would have to be bigger than the part I'm trying to hold which I can't hold in the chuck because it's too big....see where I'm going? ;D Ah! I could cut a lengh off in the bandsaw and set it up in the mill to bore the hole then hacksaw the split. Hm.

1 and 3/8" OD, 3/8" long


----------



## Deanofid

I may have misunderstood this bit, Zee:

"I think the reverse jaws won't work either...the part will be to far inside."

I took it to mean the outside jaws wouldn't close down far enough, meaning they would be to big around. Maybe you meant the piece goes too far into the recess in the jaws?
Straighten me out!

I'll just put down here how I make a split collet. You might find something in it.
Usually start with a piece that is only slightly larger in dia than the work piece, but that changes a lot as needs are met for work holding limitations, and jaw opening.

Put the piece that will be the collet in the chuck, bore it through to where it will just take the work piece. I mean, a nice sliding fit, not sloppy. Talking about 2 thou for the work piece you describe, or even an easy push fit won't hurt. Then split it with a slitter or a hacksaw. You already know it will fit in the chuck, 'cause you made it there.

If the work piece is kind of thin, I make the collet the same way, but with a stepped bore, so the step will keep the working end of the piece proud of the collet, and can be use to locate for length if you have a number of the same pieces to make.

You have the slit in the right place, between the jaws.



> By the way...if I made the collet it would have to be bigger than the part I'm trying to hold which I can't hold in the chuck because it's too big....see where I'm going?



Won't your outside jaws take 1.375" plus a bit for the collet?

Dean


----------



## JimN

Looking good Zee, nice work.

JimN


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I may have misunderstood this bit, Zee:
> 
> "I think the reverse jaws won't work either...the part will be to far inside."
> 
> I took it to mean the outside jaws wouldn't close down far enough, meaning they would be to big around. Maybe you meant the piece goes too far into the recess in the jaws?



Yes. I meant the part goes too far into the recess of the jaws.

As for the collet..what I meant is that so far...whenever I've put a split collet into my lathe and tightened down...the part is still loose. I'm thinking the hole for the part is just too big. A slip fit (?) is needed. Rather, a hole 'just big enough'.

I like the idea of a step in the collet. Neat. Thanks.

JimN...thanks. I appreciate that.


----------



## mklotz

If your split collet doesn't close, perhaps it is too thick to bend easily under the pressure from the jaws. If this is the case, it can be remedied by cutting a blind slot in the exterior of the collet opposite the full depth slot. Make the slot deep enough to weaken the wall so the collet can clamp together more easily.

On the 4J, can you superglue a ring or plate to the back of the workpiece to make it stand sufficiently proud of the jaws to accomplish what you want to do? Remove the glued part after the work is done by heating everything to weaken the glue, then tap parallel to the glue line with a hammer. Superglue doesn't have great strength in shear.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> If your split collet doesn't close, perhaps it is too thick to bend easily under the pressure from the jaws. If this is the case, it can be remedied by cutting a blind slot in the exterior of the collet opposite the full depth slot.



Ah! Great idea. I'll try it. Thanks Marv.


----------



## DavesWimshurst

Zee,
Perhaps two extra slots so all the cuts are equally spaced between jaws.
Dave


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I admit it. This is a rank attempt to get my thread up a page. I got nothing to show.

I started on the front and rear sheets (end caps) for the boiler.
Which means the cap is in the chuck during trepanning.
Which means the boiler that needs to have chrome sanded off can't be in the chuck.
Which means I can't use the boiler to determine the 'right' size to bore the cap to.
Which means I'll make it too tight (no solder flow) or too loose (no solder fill).

I told you it was rank.

Ah...I'll get close enough. It'll be okay.


----------



## slick95

It Worked    

Still, I look forward to your progress Zee...

Jeff


----------



## Deanofid

Cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater.
When my build drops to the nethers, like yours, I'm just gonna bring it back with a story about the cat's latest hair ball episode.

Dean

(You'll do fine with the measurements, Zee!)
; )


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jeff!

Sticks and Stones Dean.
I'll pack a few with the bon-bons for you when I come visiting. ;D

So...I managed to do some work undetected. Turns out she'd gone shopping.

Finished the front and rear sheets (end caps). That was more fun that I thought it'd be.







That hole will have a 'bolt' soldered through it and is used to attached the boiler to the front of the cab.

Here's a mock-up...






Some poster blue-tack is holding the brass bits on top of the boiler.

Boiler is getting a bit scratched...maybe should have put tape all around?

She's back. Time to weed and mulch.

I hate weeding and mulching.


----------



## Foozer

Thats starting to look real Cute

Few hundred pounds of rock salt will take care of them weeds for ya

Robert


----------



## ozzie46

Looking good Zee. 

  I know what you mean about yard work. Its that time of year.  

 Ron


----------



## Deanofid

Ah, it's beautiful, Zee. Really is.

Now get back to work!

Dean


----------



## capjak

Hey Zee,

I live in a college town and it is amazing how many responses you get from an ad at the university offering $8.00 per hour for yard work. Fortunately for my wallet the kids don't know how much I would pay them to do the work.

Your project looks great as usual. You set a very high standard.

Thanks,

Jack


----------



## putputman

Zee, take Jacks advice. We won't squeal on you. That way we see that piece of art work running sooner.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hey Robert! Thanks. As for the rock salt...I'm sure it'll take care of weeds...and I'm sure my health will suffer as a result too. ;D

Thanks Ron.

Thanks Dean. I'm working! I'm working! She has roses and there's a holly tree in back. I'm getting poked enough. ;D



			
				capjak  said:
			
		

> I live in a college town and it is amazing how many responses you get from an ad at the university offering $8.00 per hour for yard work. Fortunately for my wallet the kids don't know how much I would pay them to do the work.





			
				putputman  said:
			
		

> Zee, take Jacks advice.



You guys got wallets? She took mine away after my last tool purchase. 

Thanks for looking Jack and putputman.


----------



## cfellows

Ahh, look at that. That's a fine looking boiler, sure you don't want to leave it chromed?

Yuk, yard work. When I lived in Arizona, we had a yard full of rock with no grass in sight. We also had a landscaping service who came out once a month to trim the shrubs and smooth out the rock (no kidding). Now that I've moved to Texas, we have grass, such as it is, shrubs, weeds, and fire ants. And, since I'm retired (I think), can justify getting a landscaping service. I thin I liked it better when I had a full time job!

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Chuck,

Actually, the plan is to leave it chromed. Just need to sand off the ends a bit so the end caps can be soldered on.

That's the plan.

Once I start soldering...reality will set in. I guess if there's any chrome left we can still consider it to be chromed? :big:


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hi Chuck,
> 
> Actually, the plan is to leave it chromed. Just need to sand off the ends a bit so the end caps can be soldered on.
> 
> That's the plan.
> 
> Once I start soldering...reality will set in. I guess if there's any chrome left we can still consider it to be chromed? :big:



Once its all soldered up, take the bride to dinner, the dozen roses for "Just thinking of ya Dear" always works to get the wallet back. Drop the boiler off at the chrome shop and run like mad.



Robert


----------



## Philjoe5

Wow Zee, it's looking good. :bow: I'll be hearing her chugging away here in Lancaster county before I know it ;D Just let me know what whistle pitch you'll be using so I won't confuse you with one of the Strasburg railroad steamers.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Swarf Rat

This is looking great!! I've been reading this thread since back when I was a lurker here.

So, what solution did you settle on for machining the boiler end caps. I think too much good brass got turned into swarf. Since it's a brass boiler anyway, I think I might have fabricated the end caps from the remainder of the chrome plated drain pipe - cut, anneal, shape, solder....

I think I might like to try building something like this some day


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Foozer  said:
			
		

> take the bride to dinner, the dozen roses for "Just thinking of ya Dear" always works to get the wallet back.



Hm...take bride to dinner...spend money.
Get a dozen roses...spend money.
Get wallet back that was taken away for spending money...

You're thinking that it makes a difference that I spent the money on her? No no. She's bright. There's no fooling her. I've never fooled her. Never. Can you hear the sadness in my voice? (But I haven't talked about the sunny side of life. ;D )

Thanks Phil! Strasburg! I've been in this area for 15 years and have yet to get to there! It's just down the road. I'm so ashamed.

SwarfRat! Thanks. You're right...the brass pieces that came with the kit were on the order of .375 thick...and had to be turned down to .16. All I thought about while facing them down was how much brass was being wasted. But I didn't know what else to do! On the other hand...if I do the soldering well...they'll look really good.

Thank you all for taking a look!


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, I love your project. 

I too have and lionel trane set, (that is a Lionel track, right) 

this may be a project to put on my "To Do" list.

Kel


----------



## arnoldb

You've quietly been making progress Zee - it looks great :bow:

Your little W&W man will soon have to go on a loco driver's course ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks kel and Arnold!

It's been a real struggle to get in the shop and do something...but progress is progress right?

I managed the pistons tonight. Two itty bitty pistons. We won't know for sure until later how well I managed...but for now I'm pretty happy with the fit. This is an area I've been particularly interested in improving.







Each piston was hand fit to its cylinder. Anyone want to bet I lose track of which is which? Too late!

Question...the cylinders are a 'tight' fit but you can push them in and out without any kind of 'real' strain. Kind of 'rough' too. Close enough that it seems like a bit of run-in will smooth things out nicely. Is this expected?


----------



## Philjoe5

Looking good Zee. If you can push those pistons through the cylinders and they don't just drop through, then you're right where you want to be. Put a little #30 oil on them and run them back and forth and they should run in just fine. BTW, they do look small, what is the bore? 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## ksouers

Looking good, zee.

Like Phil said, you're spot on. Just a little break-in is all they need.


----------



## Deanofid

They look good, Zee.

I don't mean to be contrary, and am not totally disagreeing with Phil and Kevin, but.. If you hold a cylinder vertical, and put the piston in one end, it should slip through. Not fall through, rattling about, but it should not stick. Should slide from one end to the other. If you have to push on them, they're too tight at this point. Running-in to loosen up parts that are too tight is really _wearing out_ to make things fit.

I looked back a ways and couldn't find if you bored the cylinders, or reamed them. One post I found said you used the tail stock, so, reamed? Usually that makes a finish good enough to let the right sized piston slide through nicely. If the reamer got really loaded up, you could have a number of tiny ridges in there. You can polish it up a bit with a clean split rod with very fine wet or dry, like 1500, through the split. Size the rod close to the bore, go at it slow. 
Then, you could have to make your pistons again.

I don't want my name on your list a third time for saying that last bit about pistons, but will have it there gladly if it gets you a nice running engine. 

Dean


----------



## Troutsqueezer

I wish it didn't look so good, Zee. I wish it turned out to be something I could turn my nose up at. Then I could be satisfied with focusing on my engine projects but no, because of you now I want to make a small loco. I was fine with the Horizontal Mill but now I'm think I'm going loco...  stickpoke  

-Trout


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil and Kevin.

The bore is 0.281 inch.

Thanks Dean. The cylinders were reamed...but you're right...I forgot I hadn't polished/sanded the inside yet. That may help (and should've been done before making the pistons). The pistons are only 0.19 thick and I haven't attached (pressed in) the piston rods yet. So I couldn't put the piston in very far for fear of not getting it back out.

As for the lists...remember I mentioned you're on more than one. There's 'mentor', 'good guy', 'another M&M eater', 'awesome machinist'...I see no conflict that you happen to show up on the 'crumb' list occasionally. ;D

Thanks Trout. We may all turn our nose up at this loco yet! It won't do me any good if it looks good but doesn't run. :big: Even if it runs I'll have plenty of opportunity to ruin the looks. I have a lot of soldering to do. Build a loco!

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.


----------



## b.lindsey

Its looking great zee. Nice to have you back on page one too...must have got all that mulch out huh?? The grooves in the pistons...will they be packed with anything? That could also influence the fit. When working with non-ringed pistons (albeit with air rather than steam), i usually use something similar to Dean's approach, though with the added provision that with one end of the cylinder closed off (like with finger) the vacuum created will stop the piston from sliding or slow its sliding to just a gradual motion, then slipping again once the finger (and vacuum) is removed. Not sure what exact fit that ends up being, but it works every time!


----------



## Deanofid

b.lindsey  said:
			
		

> ...one end of the cylinder closed off (like with finger) the vacuum created will stop the piston from sliding or slow its sliding to just a gradual motion, then slipping again once the finger (and vacuum) is removed. Not sure what exact fit that ends up being, but it works every time!



The way Bill says is the same way I check my own stuff. I noticed your pistons have a hole through the middle, and so, didn't mention it. Won't work.  If you plug that hole and try it, you'll find out what's what.

That sanding bit I mentioned, Zee. That's if you need it. I can't see the finish in your cylinders. I have a number of engines that have cylinders running just as they came from the reamer. They (reamers) usually do a good job. Your cylinders appear to be blind, so take some care if you sand them, not to bell the mouth, (much, at least).

Dean
On the list, and out to lunch.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

b.lindsey  said:
			
		

> ...must have got all that mulch out huh??



Sigh...no. 3 more yards coming this Saturday. That'll make 15.

Thanks Bill. The vacuum is exactly the effect I'm hoping for...but will find out later. Nothing was said in the instructions about packing the piston with anything. I did wonder about that. It does look ideal for a small o-ring or something. 

The other day, at work, I came across two aluminum tubes used to study the effect of sound waves. Both are blocked at one end. One happens to fit into the other. Putting them together was a nice sliding fit...and it acted like a shock absorber. Now that's what I want to achieve!

Thanks Dean. Right. The hole is for the piston rod...it's a press fit. And yes, the cylinders are blind (blocked at one end except for the 'valve hole'?).

Got the brake today that Marv mentioned in an earlier post! Looks pretty nice. I'll use it when I fabricate the fuel tank.

And now back to my regularly scheduled time for code reviews and documentation.

crap


----------



## ksouers

Zee,
Something you might try: wrap some masking tape around a rod or stiff wire to get a good friction fit through the hole on the piston. Bend the end of the wire so it'll catch the piston, this will let you pull it out if it gets a little stuck. Then use the the whole shebang as a feeler gage on the cylinder. Should tell you where any tight spots are.

Lapping with a piece of oak dowel and some Mother's wheel polish should take down any rough spots. Be sure to clean it really good before using the piston in it again.


----------



## Kermit

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Zee,
> Something you might try: wrap some masking tape around a rod or stiff wire to get a good friction fit through the hole on the piston.



If the piston fit is like you describe a few posts above, then just using the piston in the cylinder it will fit and lapping them together would be the way to go. Brass-o, Glitz, or the Mothers polish mentioned. All would work. Spin one and slid the other back and forth while the first spins. A minute or two of this should get you the vacuum tight fit being talked about.

Just Do It!  

 :big:

 :bow: Following in your footsteps,
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

To heck with the code reviews et.al.
I'm going to do more machining.

Rats. Maybe not. What am I doing wrong?

Went to make the piston rods. 1018 steel. The worst finish I can remember (I have no long term memory ;D)...came out groovy or rough. Tried several HSS cutters and a carbide. Made sure they were at the right height. Tried some cutting fluid and different speeds. The rod is sticking out about 1.5 inch. Too far? 1/4 diameter trying to get it down to 0.11 but I'm still at 0.2. It doesn't even look good near the chuck. Also tried power feed both forward and reverse.

Gotta be the cutters. Doesn't it? Well...could be the length. When I get back to it I'll setup a live center on the tailstock and see if that helps.

Time to stop when it gets to this level of frustration.

Kevin...thanks. Can you get Mother's polish at a local hardware store?

Kermit...thanks. And watch those footsteps of mine...if you look closely you won't see a right foot. :big:

Some would call this divine compensation when you don't do what you're supposed to be doing. ;D


----------



## ksouers

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Kevin...thanks. Can you get Mother's polish at a local hardware store?



Auto Zone carries it here, I would think it'd be same at all the stores. Most likely available at any chain auto parts store. It's a small white can with red label, advertised for polishing aluminum.


I can't get a decent finish out of 1018 either. I've gotten OK finishes, but never good. I usually end up with a bunch of galling. And they usually take lots of sanding. It's a good structural steel, but for something visible I prefer the leaded varieties or O1 drill rod.


----------



## Philjoe5

> The rod is sticking out about 1.5 inch. Too far? 1/4 diameter trying to get it down to 0.11 but I'm still at 0.2.



Zee,
I think 1.5 inch of overhang for a 1/4" rod going down to 0.11" is a bit much. I would do this in at least 3 - 4 steps letting about 3/8" extend out for turning down. Turn 3/8" down to 0.11", then extend the work out another 3/8" and repeat. 

Also, I've found when turning these small diameters I get better results with a hand feed on my lathe. Reason being, for turning a 1/4" piece, you want at least 600 rpm, but on my 9x20 the slowest autofeed is 0.0023"/rpm. That gives you too fast a feed rate for a decent finish. Just my experience FWIW.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The rod is sticking out about 1.5 inch. Too far? 1/4 diameter trying to get it down to 0.11 but I'm still at 0.2. It doesn't even look good near the chuck. Also tried power feed both forward and reverse.



Yes, way too far out of the chuck, Zee. Rule of thumb, (means not set in stone), 2-3 x diameter.
Think of a one inch diameter rod. Would be like having it sticking out of the chuck 6". Much too much.

But, bad near the chuck also says tool problem, spindle slow/carriage too fast, or loose gib.
I would take a quick check of the gibs, then sharpen the tool and re-center. With a sharp tool, small tip radius, so you can barely see it, then try slowest feed with a spindle speed of about 800-1300 rpm. Somewhere in there will get you right.
Like you said, center in the loose end.

Dean


----------



## Orrin

> I, like Dave, made one of the little steam locos back in the late 70's. Dickens is what they call it in Live Steam Magazine.



I dug out my old _Live Steam_ magazines. The Dickens is serialized in the February, March and April 1976 issues. It's a cute little rascal.

Orrin


----------



## Deanofid

No progress in days, Zee, and your thread is one stop from falling to page two. Thought you needed a bump to the top.
This might be _trashing_ your thread, but at least it will keep it from tumbling into the dump!

Almost as good as a neener moment...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrfSGeTsJGE[/ame]

Take that, my M&M tutu friend.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Orrin.
Your post reminds me of all the machining, model engineering, and railroading magazines I came across as a kid. They're a major reason why I got hooked on this. I was always amazed (and still am) by what people can do. I so wish I'd been able to keep all the stuff I came across.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Dean!

My first reaction was...

"you lousy, no good, stinking, Jelly Belly eating, happy you're in Idaho and not here to buy my M&Ms....did I mention stinking?...crummy, good guy, skilled, did I mention stinking?...Twinkie eating,..."

My second reaction was...

deja vu

My third reaction was...

"Rats...I can't believe I threw out all my cool M&M stuff. I'd show him."

But yeah...I'm really struggling to get into the shop. 3 weekends in a row of moving mulch makes for a tired zeepie...not to mention work work. And this weekend was especially tough. Daughter #2's birthday...and she wanted the pool ready. 

If you knew me...you'd all want to be my daughters. I never (rarely, maybe sometimes) say no. :big:

It's good to see you're back in form Dean. Or not.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I got the following link from a fellow member...
I was going to wait and see if he was going to post it on the forum...
Or, I was going to wait for an appropriate time and post it on the forum...
I decided to post it now...and circumvent any other low, under-handed, attacks at my ..ahem...personhood...

If I owned a bowling ball...it would be manlyhood...but that's another story.

http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/rWylZls5JLvtXhQ1

You all need to watch out for this guy. He's apparently capable of anything.
His name is Rick Martin...he goes by 'black85vette'...
Rick Martin. Remember that. 'black85vette'.
He's in Oklahoma and has apparently forgotten that I'm from Missouri. I'll be in Missouri in two weeks. If you don't hear from him after May 17th...think of me.

That's right Rick. Two weeks. Start exercising your neck...you need to look behind you.

 :big: He says.

I'd like to know how he got that film of me. Must be 30 years now.


----------



## mklotz

Kind of makes me sorry I own a computer.


----------



## Artie

oh that is absolutely hilarious..... almost had tears from laughing...... beautiful!! Rof}


----------



## cfellows

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Kind of makes me sorry I own a computer.



Yeah, disturbing on so many levels, but you can't stop looking... and laughing!

Chuck


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, up 'til now, your secret was safe. 
You should have put this in the Q&A section, 'cause I'm sure everyone now has questions, and really can't wait to hear your answers.
(Like, where'd you get them jeans, and do they come in a 40" waist?)


----------



## ksouers

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Yeah, disturbing on so many levels, but you can't stop looking... and laughing!
> 
> Chuck



Kinda like a train wreck, or a 40 car pile-up on the highway...


----------



## bearcar1

OMG!!!!!! That is just SOOOooooo WRONG. 


"If Grandma had wheels she'd have been a wagon" is how the old saying goes but Zeep, and I really hate to be the one to tell you this, but your wheels fell off a LONG time ago. Dude! Put some clothes on, you're embarrassing us. 


 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}


BC1
Jim


----------



## black85vette

Well so much for the blackmail idea!!! :big:

Zee; got my special rear view bicycling glasses so I will keep an eye out for you.  Actually we will be in Missouri about the same time as you so I am safe because you don't know where in MO I will be.

Then again maybe I will be there waiting for you to show up. Anticipatory retaliation.  Get them before they get you. That way it is not revenge.


----------



## Deanofid

black85vette  said:
			
		

> That way it is not revenge.



Right, it's Prevenge! From the vid, it looks like you already got a big pile of that, _Rick_.
What a stinker you are, in the best way. 


Dean


----------



## Kermit

Hey Zee!

Where's the Loco? I was going to see what progress you've made.  


This look's like a good book, but I didn't read all the prequels so I'm a little lost. I'll read it someday if they don't make a movie out of it.  :big:
But where's them thar loco pictures?

 :big:

(Everybodies a critic)
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

What we have to ask ourselves is...

How many of you watched until it was finished?
Worse...how many of you rewound?
Aha!

...bunch of sick people around here...sick...

 :big:

Kermit...sorry for the lack of progress...been a little 'derailed'...


----------



## bearcar1

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> ...bunch of sick people around here...sick...



Thank you my good man, I resemble that remark. And yes, I watched it in its entirety. I always was a sucker for a good bump and grind. ;D  ???


BC1
Jim


----------



## ksouers

I have to admit, zee, I watched it all the way through. But only once. Then immediately poured bleach in my eyes kissed my wife.


----------



## Deanofid

I only watched it once.. today.

Dean


----------



## Maryak

Oh for a body like that, (mind you the head could be better).


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Sigh and sigh.

The first sigh is for all you people that a) watched that sorry video (from Rick Martin...black85vette...remember...Rick Martin)....and b) owned up to it.

I'm really surprised by the level of jealousy on this forum. I mean...I may have looked good then...but I certainly don't now. (Actually...I do look pretty good. Well...good enough.)

The second sigh is for my feeble attempt to do some machining tonight. You just can't rush these things. If you don't have the time...don't even try.

Back to the piston rods. 1018. When last we left our 'idiot' he was trying to turn .25 rod down to .11 and it was sticking out some 1.5" inches from the chuck. 

Well, even though the rod was sticking out 1.5" inches, it was actually about 7" long. So I wondered if that length on the other end was causing the short end to wobble.

I cut if off...and it helped quite a bit. But still not good enough.

So I rechucked it so that only about a 1/2" was sticking out. Better...but I'm still not happy with the finish. And the part is getting hot. So I'm thinking the cutting tool needs some work. (I'm pretty happy with the cutting height.)

At this point I'm thinking it's not going to work. If I turn it down, and move it out and turn it down...I can't see how it will stay true. The rod has to go through the cylinder end and I don't think it will be a good sliding fit.

I'm still wondering if a better way is to use a center (dead or alive) to turn down the center of the rod (that goes through the end of the cylinder) and then rechuck to turn the ends for their press fits.

Ah well...I'm sure hoping to get some quality time in the shop.

Heads up for my fellow Missourians...remember OMD?
Guess away. All you'll get from me is...heh heh heh.


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
This would be a good place to use a collet chuck. But if you're like me and don't have one you can make a decent substitute. Take a piece of steel rod about 1 inch diameter and turn it true. Center drill and ream it 1/4" and drill and tap two 8-32 set screw holes. Rechuck the steel rod in a four jaw, get it true. Now put the 1/4" rod in the hole, tighten the set screws, turn a 1/2" length down to 0.11", repeat as often as necessary.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## kcmillin

Hey Zee, Phil has a pretty good Idea with the homemade collet. 

I have another, less professional, method to share. 

If you use the same method you tried by tuning it a little at a time and then re-chuck it and turn a little more. But instead of turning it to final dimension kepp it about .002" bigger. then when you get the length you want, *CAREFULLY* use a file to smooth the tooling marks (if any) and then using sandpaper 320 grit to 600grit between your fingers, and "pinching" it to the rotating shaft. I usually start at one end, and using a piece of brass with a hole the correct size for the fit as a gauge. When the brass goes the entire length of the part, your good, and it should still be concentric. This method will also give you that great finish your looking for.

hope this helps.

Kel


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, just throwing this out here. Is there any reason you can't use 1/8" drill rod for this piece, then make adjustments to what ever it goes through? For instance, turn down the end where it goes into the pistons, and open up what ever guide it goes through on the end of the cylinder.

Directly to your trouble, it sounds like you have tool sharpness issues, as you suspect. Show us pictures of what you're using shot from a couple of angles.
Making this piece can be done, but you have a kind of crummy material to work with for what they want. If the print simply says to use "CRS", that leaves you wide open to many materials. 1045, 1144, 12L14, 1117, 1215, 11L17, (and more), are all CRS. Pick one you can work with. 

Dean
stinky, crummy, Twinkie eating, stinking...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Phil, Kel, and Dean.

I woke up in the middle of the night realizing that using a center wouldn't work...there's no good way to fit the cylinder end.

All 3 of you (Dean a couple of posts back) have basically suggested the same thing. So I'll give it another go.

First I'm going to try and improve the cutting tool...then maybe switch to some 12L14 I have. I don't have any drill rod.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, just another thought... (Well not on the video clips that were going round :big

I don't know how much kit you have for your lathe, but for this kind of job the use of a traveling steady comes to mind - if you have one, it would be worth a try. You could cobble something together to make a temporary one if need be Thm:. That would allow you to make the entire length (and even longer) with single passes at the same size.

Oh yes, and a super sharp toolbit will help; get out the oilstone ;D

Good luck

Arnold 
(Who also has a dirty mind sometimes :big


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee , sticking my nose in but why not either use 3/32 or 1/8 stubbs [driil rod]or stainless as it looks like a single acting engine so should not effect anything and save a bit of ball ache if you used 1/8 and the pistons are finished just turn the ends to size.
regards Frazer


----------



## Antman

Wow Zee thats a really cute toy. 
 You started machining only about a short time before me. In the workshop is one place where I am convinced I live in another space-time relative to the people on your planet.


----------



## Jack B

Stick with it Carl you are bound to have success.
                               Jack B


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold, Frazer, Antman, and Jack.

Everyone's help is much appreciated.

I managed some shop time today. After playing around some more with the 1018 and different tools, I ended up switching to 12L14 and things went way better.

The pic shows one piston rod assembled up (press fits) with the piston, cylinder cover, and rod end. This may have been a mistake. I haven't drilled the hole for the crank pin through the rod end yet. But I think I'll be okay.

That was the first go. The second go was going even better...until the very end. I'd turned the piston rod down in steps and then turned the one end for a press fit to the end rod. Then it was time to turn the other end. Phooey. Fit, turn a little, fit, turn a little. I'm not sure what happened but a half thou more and the piston slips on with no trouble. Rats.

I either redo the piston rod or Loctite the piston on and hope for the best. What do you all think? Is Loctite good enough? There's about 0.19" of rod into the piston. The engine is supposed to be steamed and if things go well (ha ha he says) I intend to do just that.







I'm kind of limited to weekend work and next weekend I go to Missouri, down by Fort Wood, to visit the folks.


----------



## mklotz

Loctite might work but I don't think I would want to depend on it for a joint exposed to steam temperatures. After all, we heat Loctited joints to free them.

Can you solder it? Even soft solder would be better than Loctite IMO. The soft solder I use melts at about 400 degF and the steam will never raise an exposed part to that temperature.


----------



## bearcar1

Zee' could you knurl the rod to 'raise the grain' so to speak and then do your press fit into the piston? I believe it would work better than Loctite in that application, otherwise you might try soldering. Good luck mate, your getting close now.

BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, not Loctite, but high strength sleeve retainer. Auto stores have it, and it comes in small tubes like Loctite. Good for around 400 deg.
No shame in this. I would put it on both of them anyway to make sure they don't leak.

The parts look good!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv, Jim, and Dean.

I thought about using Loctite anyway...but I don't think anything is coming off the one assembly. I'd taken my little brass hammer to it to seat the ends. I used thick paper in between to reduce the risk of damage.

Jim, I like the idea of knurling. I'll try that. If it doesn't work then I'll probably make another rod.

Dean, I'll take a look next time I'm at the auto store.

Thanks everyone.

Yep...getting close. For turning I have the safety valve, two crank pins, the two burner tubes, and a seating tool. Then fabricate the fuel tank. And then it's time to silver solder!

Hopefully nothing will rust by the time I finish this. :big:


----------



## arnoldb

Good going Zee

 : It's a pain when that half-thou too much thing happens. Like Marv & Jim suggested - knurl it (or even a couple of good center punch marks around it will work) or solder it, or both; then it will stay put.

Kind regards, Arnold

PS: Remember to spray the parts in storage with some oil ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold. The center punch might have been the better choice. ;D

I did not knurl it. I tried to knurl it. 

The piston rod is only 0.11 thick. It had to stick out from the chuck about a half an inch in order to get the last 0.19 in the knurling wheels. Centered the knurler, slow rpm and slow tightening of the knurler...and tadaaa...a nicely curved piston rod.

Now if my cylinder were curved...I'd be a happy guy. :big: 
Well no...had the cylinder been curved...I'd have been really bummed out some time ago.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I did not knurl it. I tried to knurl it.
> 
> Centered the knurler, slow rpm and slow tightening of the knurler...and tadaaa...a nicely curved piston rod.



Now thats funny. Was it a scissors type knurler or the feed in via the slide type. Course I'm still wiping oil out of my ear after changing the oil in the truck.

Time for a shot and some watching mud dry experience.

Robert


----------



## fcheslop

Not to worry just part of the learning curve.
regards Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Robert. Scissor type. Was the ear squeaky?



			
				fcheslop  said:
			
		

> Not to worry just part of the learning curve.



 :big: Nice pun.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, no doubt you'll get your own back when I eventually post :big: warts an all.Nice little loco are the plans available on the web?
regards Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Frazer. I got the plans with the kit of materials from LittleMachineShop. You have to buy the drain pipe separately. I don't know if the plans are available elsewhere...I suspect they are since a couple of members posted the engine in this thread (near the beginning).

The nice thing about the kit is you get nearly all the material you need which can be a chore especially the sheet stock. But if you're a newbie like me...you'll end up getting more material anyway. ;D Best to find the plans and buy the material separately.

Anyone who knows more about this is welcome to post here.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Cool. Two piston rod assemblies complete. Very cool.
Well...it will be very cool if they fit the cylinders.

I hope the old hands remember...getting a press fit is (for me) a sign of budding skill.

Now to drill the holes for the crank pins.
Severe bumness if I screw this up.

But I know bumness...and have made it a friend.

It's easy. Bumness likes vodka.

Slow going but going. Two piston rods in two weeks! But I'm going to have a loco!!!

P.S. Bumness has no taste. Any vodka will do. I keep the good stuff for me.

Man I enjoy this forum. Or the vodka does. Can you tell I'm celebrating?


----------



## Deanofid

Well, celebrate away, Zee. Every part is a project completed in itself.
You know...

There will be no bumness, by the way. You will do well!

Dean


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
We who are watching have no doubt that you will arrive at your intended destination. But, by golly, we sure do not always know what route you will take to get there :big: I myself have toasted many a shiny metal part at the end of the day. I'm doing that right now ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## mklotz

It might have been easier to drill the holes for the crank pins before they were removed from their parent stock, nicht wahr?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I drilled two holes! I drilled two holes!

Thanks Dean, Phil, and Marv.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> It might have been easier to drill the holes for the crank pins before they were removed from their parent stock, nicht wahr?



Marv...that's what I was wondering too even though the instructions show the end rod being pressed on the piston rod before drilling. In part I wondered about it because I couldn't see how the orientation made any difference.

However, I'm thinking now it might be to avoid crushing the rod end when it's pressed. When drilled, there's not much material left on the sides.

Anyway...I managed it. I had some .125 thick aluminum and milled it down to just under .1 and then squared it. This would be a miniature parallel to hold the piston rod horizontal. Then I cut two more pieces to act as a vise within a vise. The width of the aluminum was just right to fit between the rod end and the piston.

Here's one end. I used the edge finder to find the center and move to the needed spot.







Here's the other end. You can see the mini-parallel underneath. Sorry it's so out of focus.






And here's the end result. You can see what I mean about the amount of material on each side of the hole. I don't know if it would be enough to support the end while pressing it.






Ganz gut. Nicht whar? Ja. ;D

Ich könnte Mini-zeepster nicht finden. 

(I couldn't find mini-zeepster.)


----------



## Deanofid

Those look really good, Zee. I'm likin' it.

I see your point about the press job there. Maybe would have been okay, maybe not, depending on interference. You did fine, in the end. Good results.

Eh, wot? Can't cipher the garble at the end. Speek Inglesh, dood!

Dean


----------



## kcmillin

Good Work Zee, and the forward thinking of drilling the holes after pressing the parts was a good one indeed. No sense in risking it if you don't have to.

Kel


----------



## Kermit

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Cool. Two piston rod assemblies complete. Very cool.
> Well...it will be very cool if they fit the cylinders.
> 
> I hope the old hands remember...getting a press fit is (for me) a sign of budding skill.
> 
> Now to drill the holes for the crank pins.
> Severe bumness if I screw this up.
> 
> But I know bumness...and have made it a friend.
> 
> It's easy. Bumness likes vodka.
> 
> Slow going but going. Two piston rods in two weeks! But I'm going to have a loco!!!
> 
> P.S. Bumness has no taste. Any vodka will do. I keep the good stuff for me.
> 
> Man I enjoy this forum. Or the vodka does. Can you tell I'm celebrating?



Sometimes, just sometimes. You guys make me miss my drinking days. 


You're on fire Zee. Don't slow down now!
Kermit


----------



## mklotz

> Ganz gut. Nicht whar? Ja.



Stimmt, ja sicher. Ich bin erfreut.

Sei ruhig, Dean.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

If vodka will enable me to make nice little parts like those, I'm switching over from my Captain Morgan Parrot Coconut Rum. They're like little models all by themselves...

-T


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Stimmt, ja sicher. Ich bin erfreut.
> 
> Sei ruhig, Dean.



Doesn't matter how many letters you jumble together, it's still jibberish. Like a foreign language, or sumthin'.

Dean


----------



## arnoldb

> Ganz gut. Nicht whar? Ja.


Sehr Gut Zee :bow:

Dean, to quote Obelix: "Roman ?  Latin ? Its all Greek to me!" ;D

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Dean, Kel, Kermit, Marv, Trout and Arnold.

Kermit...I was lucky to get some time in the shop last night. It'll probably be a week and half before I can get back again.

Trout...Vodka doesn't ever help me make good parts. But I'll celebrate them. ;D It doesn't help to make bad parts either as I avoid drinking and machining.

Dean...From Merriam-Webster, jibberish...A language that is confusing or hard to understand. That's what I experienced when I first started this hobby and joined this forum. :big:


----------



## bearcar1

Well done Z'. Those parts are beauties and I do admire your tenacity to begin anew and succeed. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## Philjoe5

Nice work on the small parts Zee. :bow: Progress is being made, keep it up

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jim. Thanks Phil. Very much appreciated.

No pic. Stop here if you're looking for one.

Gee, everyone sure is busy. I didn't realize my thread was headed for 'old news'.

Unfortunately, I cannot offer 'new news'...I must begin this post with my oft mentioned...

Rats.

Stupid one thousands.

Crank pins. Simple. Turn it down to .09 for .4" so they'll slip into the piston rod ends and then .094 for another .12" so they'll press fit into the drive wheels.

He said.

Piston rod end slips on...nice. Or is it a hair too loose? Should be okay.
Now for the press fit.
Zip zip.
And the drive wheel...slips on.

It's the usual lesson. Don't rush.

Bright side...I kept it on the parent stock. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Well, at least they're not big boo boos, Zee. Easy to make again, right?
(We all do it.) I know you want it correct, but, Loctite is not a sin. I read the Bible 
regularly, and I can promise that much.

Oh, and it's 42
And on my list; Greer Garson.

People will have to read both our threads if they want to know what we're talking about.
Maybe that will keep you out of the archives.
; )

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

42 is the "Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life the Universe and Everything".
Not that anyone ever stated what the 'Ultimate Question' is. ;D

Greer Garson...very understandable...but your answer is incomplete. I look forward to seeing it in your thread. :big:

I wasn't happy saying 'rats' just once tonight. I needed a second opportunity.
So I had another go.

This time the slip fit was beautiful. Just right. No wobble.

But darn it. I totally forgot to turn for only .4".
When I trial fitted the drive wheel for a press fit...my opportunity was fulfilled.

I think I'm a day machinist (if I may be so bold to use that term). :big:


----------



## mklotz

> Bright side...I kept it on the parent stock.



LOL. Now I know how teachers feel when their students are admitted to good universities.

Loctite "bearing retainer", e.g.,

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=505-2679&PMPXNO=945163

is an essential part of any hobbyist's kit. Don't confuse this stuff with threadlocker - with this you could glue two electrons together.

For me, it's Rita Hayworth.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not a lot to show. I spent most of the weekend replacing our whole house fan and adding a wall switch for it. After finishing I had a choice...pay the bills or get some machining done. My debt increases.

Finished the crank pins. I just need to press them into the drive wheels.







A few posts back I mentioned my first attempt and how I took a little off the crank pin and the pin easily rotated in the wheel. I'm starting to suspect that I mistakenly put the pin in the center hole. Hee.

What you might also notice is that the pistons are inside the cylinders. I had also cleaned up (lapped?) the cylinders and pistons. I'm fairly pleased. When I close the inlet, I can feel a noticeable change in pressure as I move the piston in and out. Cool.


----------



## Deanofid

Oh, I just knew everything would turn out right, Zee. 
Your parts look down right impressive. You've made good progress,
both with this build, and improving your skills. You go in leaps and
bounds. 

Very nice, my good man.

Dean


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Those _are_ nice! You're getting closer and closer Zee. I hope you are planning out the video for this. I don't expect to see any cell phone camera quality stuff for this nice project. The video must be as nice as the work you've been doing, with a plot line and everything.  ;D

-trout


----------



## mklotz

> The video must be as nice as the work you've been doing, with a plot line and everything.



And tutus. It's gotta have tutus. Maybe hippos in tutus? I like ill-tempered, fat herbivores in tutus. They remind me of my ex-wife. 

Seriously, great work, Zee. It will be a childhood dream fulfilled and it doesn't get better than that.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> I hope you are planning out the video for this. I don't expect to see any cell phone camera quality stuff for this nice project. The video must be as nice as the work you've been doing, with a plot line and everything.





			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> And tutus. It's gotta have tutus. Maybe hippos in tutus? I like ill-tempered, fat herbivores in tutus.



Sheesh. A bit beyond shiny things aren't we?
Fantasia fan, eh Marv?

A preview of coming attractions (repulsions)...
It's really pretty silly stupid (yet somehow called for here).
But it was fun.
Anyone in Missouri should recognize these boys...





People will remember today as the day after yesterday's peak.


----------



## b.lindsey

That is too funny Zee !! But hey, it proves you have the wheel gage right at least 

Bill


----------



## ariz

:big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

you can always make me laugh...


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Yes, you're on the right track! :hDe:


----------



## Deanofid

Were you giggling when you did this, Zee?

I sure was.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you Bill, ariz, Trout and Dean.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Were you giggling when you did this, Zee?



I was indeed.

The downside though is that I haven't been able to get that song out of my head for two days now.

Chicken Train...running all day.
Chicken Train...running all day.
Chicken Train...taking chickens away.

Sigh. It doesn't help that my family is tired of my humming.


----------



## ksouers

Hey!
The Ozark Mountain Daredevils!

Yee haw!

Saw them live at Mississippi River Festival a couple lifetimes back :


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ha! Great. I thought you'd be one to recognize them Kevin.

I used to see them in the cafe at UMC...before they cut records.

'Country Girl' is one of my favorites.
Should I mention 'Standing on a Rock'?

Hometown boys. Saw a couple of them at the KMart when I worked the camera department.

Geesh it's easy to fall back into it...'the Kmart'?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Newbie question...

I'm trying to make the burner tubes. 1/4" rod, drilled with .22 bit for .8". Blind hole.

First attempt is a beautiful tube with a hole on both ends. Rats.

I'm thinking this calls for...drill to .8 with 7/32 bit, then end mill with 7/32 to flat bottom.

I don't have an end mill of that size.

Alternative 1: Make a D reamer out of drill rod. Don't have any.

Alternative 2: I have a junk 7/32 drill bit. Grind it flat...or rather...slight angle and use that after drilling with regular drill bit to depth.

Alternative 3: Buy a 7/32 end mill. Nah.

I have to use a similar process for making the safety valve. So why not?

Hm..actually...the safety valve calls for a ground drill bit at a slight angle. Maybe grind this one flat? Stock is brass.

Yeah. Alternative 2. Okay. If I'm wrong I hope someone is fast enough to stop me. ;D


----------



## joe d

First attempt is a beautiful tube with a hole on both ends. Rats.


Zee:

Since the parent stock is no doubt significantly longer than the final part, why not drill to a little more than required depth, do what you've got to do to the bottom of the hole, face the cut end AFTERWARDS to the correct length, then part it off at the correct overall length? 

Still following along, and enjoying the ride. Except for the chickens. Still hearing that danged train. 

Cheers, Joe


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Doesn't work. Obviously I'm doing something wrong.

I ground the 7/32 drill bit down...but it doesn't seem to do any cutting.
Also tried grinding it down at an angle. No difference.

I'm thinking the only sharp edge is on the flute...nothing on the end. That's why it's not cutting.

Makes me wonder if the safety valve is going to be successful.

My suspicion is that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong...so any hints, suggestions, 'you dummy you should...', would be appreciated...

Thanks.

Oh...and another lesson...

Using tape on the drill bit to set the depth...might work...but you really have to watch it. The tape moved by as much as 0.1" and I didn't notice. You really have to let the chips clear often near the end or else they push the tape back.

It's a great night. I have successfully drilled a hole. Just not the hole I wanted. Poo.

Thanks Joe. You posted while I was.

The problem is near/at the bottom of the hole, I have to drill a hole in the side for a smaller tube that carries the fuel. If the depth isn't right (or flat) then the side hole won't have enough clearance. I think. Although in thinking about it...I'm not convinced it needs to be flat.

Well...one tube is made...I still have to drill the side hole. I'm not particularly happy about the job...but it should work. Won't be seen anyway except by the eagle eye of you all. Right. That's all of you. ;D


----------



## joe d

Zee

Skin this kitty another way: dig the part with the through hole back out of the recycle box, and turn a close fitted plug with a flat face, solder in place, trim either or both ends accordingly. Wall-ah!

Joe


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## zeeprogrammer

Joe,

Thanks! I'm too quick to toss a part and try again. I still need to learn how to recover. Too late in this case...I went ahead and made the second tube. In part because I was curious why I found a little 'tire' around the 1st tube. It happened on the 2nd part too. I'm thinking the walls are thin enough and the drill bit I ground shoddy enough that it pushed the metal out.






If you look closely, you can see it better on the right part...near the bottom...a little bulge.

Ah well...they should work so long as I drill the cross holes right and solder the small tube in well. ;D

I thinking of using my 5C collet to hole the tube for drilling.

I may need to wipe that stupid little smirk off of mini-zeepster's face. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Used the 5C 1/4" collet to hold the tubes and drilled the through hole in one and the side hole in the other.






I hadn't noticed the little ring around the right one from the collet. No matter really.

It's going to be interesting to solder this stuff up. For one...I haven't done this kind of soldering. I've done plenty of electrical work and quite a bit of plumbing...but I didn't care what it looked like.

Those two flat sheets are the beginning of the rest of the fuel tank. Should be straight forward but I'm getting down to it. These two pieces and then two more to turn...

the chance of screwing up increases in direct inverse proportion to the number of pieces left to fab...which means....by the time I have just one more piece to make...I have a 100% chance of screwing it up the first time...

Which leads me to my next post...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

This post is about my do-overs, screw-ups, wall of learnings (and to some extent you all)....call it what you will...

Surprising as it may be...this is probably my most proud post.

I started this hobby a little over a year ago. A kids dream. No experience in machining of any kind. I've made...four engines...

On average, I think I remade each part for the 1st engine 3 to 4 times...subsequent engines...probably twice. At least.

But here's a shot of my wall of learnings [EDIT: thus far] in this thread...






And one of those parts hardly counts...I just cut the wrong diameter tube.

That's tremendous progress to me...so...

*Thank you all.* Your help, advice, and friendship has made this a most satisfying hobby. And I'm not just saying that because I have 3 martinis in me. ;D

I love you guys.

Now that's the martinis talking. :big:

This loco isn't running yet. I haven't soldered squat yet. Have I jinxed myself? Doesn't matter...I am so enjoying this road. (Or the martinis.)

Hm...I'm thinking I should delete this post. Nah. Should be some fun in a month or two. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Hey Zee;
The (burner?) tubes look just fine, to me. I can barely see the bulge you mention. I thought about that a bit last night when I first read yesterdays' post about boring the tubes. Didn't really come up with anything solid about the bulge, except that sometimes if I'm boring a small tube and let the tool stop in one place for a sec or two, it will make a bright line at that point on the outside of the tube. 
Also, that line will show up just before a tool comes through the wall of the tube.
Don't really know why you got them.

Anyway, they look nice.
I wonder if you have to hard solder these at all. Probably should do what the prints suggest, but these are not under pressure. They also should not get that hot if the wick is going to be sticking out of the top of them. They surely would not get to the 400-500° f that it takes to melt the solder. Probably wouldn't get over about 200°.  I have a couple of alcohol burners, and the tubes that hold the wicks get hot enough to feel hot, but won't raise a blister.

You're right about your mistakes, and a few of us have been happy to tell you so. 
The few shafts you have there are mistakes you probably won't make often in the future. The other
pieces look nice, even if they're goofs. You're even working to a good standard on your mistakes!

Thanks for the updates, mighty mulch man.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. But don't be calling me 'mighty mulch man'...that kind of thing can stick...and if wifey sees that...how do I explain that 'mighty' can also mean 'wimpy'?

I think you're right about hard versus soft soldering for the fuel tank...but, other than the cost issue, does it really matter? It's basically the same process. So from that standpoint...I've got the newbie jeebies.

To be honest..I worry less about the soldering process as I do about the preparation and ending process...proper cleaning, flux, citric acid and so on. And even then...I'm probably more concerned about the citric acid part...I have no experience at all with that.

...here's the part where I talk to the kids or newbies at work...a year from now you're going to be saying to yourself (i.e them, me) .."I've forgotten what I didn't know."

I just have the initial heebies-jeebies. We've all had them. ;D Reminds me of my first date.

P.S. That boy is growing on me. Sort of like a wart that won't go away. You just get used to it. :big: :big: :big: I crack myself up.


----------



## Philjoe5

Zee,
Good progress from my perspective. I have remade parts so many times I just accept that as the learning process. I'm coming from the same place that you are. Not so long ago I had never used a tap, or die, or lathe or milling machine. I have a four year degree's worth of education in my odds and ends scrap box...and hey no student loans :big:

Keep at it - you're doing some tricky stuff now.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, when you said "this kind of soldering", I assumed you meant you intended to hard solder it. If you just meant that you hadn't soldered something like this in brass, it soft solders very similar to copper as used in plumbing. 

The cost difference won't be much, either way. It's only going to take a few inches of hard or soft. Hard solder takes a lot more heat, and it's not quite as easy to see when it's going to flow as it is with soft solder. Otherwise, it's fairly similar. It's usually easier to put the hard solder on the joints in little pieces along with the flux, then heat it, as opposed to the way you would heat first then run soft solder on the joint.

The citric acid part is straight forward. I buy it powder in a half pound container and just dissolve it in water. I think that's how everyone does it. You can get it at a health food store, and sometimes the pharmacy. Probably many other places. Eight ounces makes about 3 quarts of pickle. It won't hurt your skin. I don't know how long you are supposed to use it. When mine quits working, I make a new batch. 

What do you intend to use, hard or soft?
If hard, practice on scrap. You're going to want to know what to look for and how long to expect to heat it. You don't want to learn that on your nice fuel tank pieces.

Hope the boy is a good one. Does he like engines?

Dean


----------



## tmuir

Your loco is looking great.
Silver soldering on small parts like this isn't too hard.
Actually the greatest danger is getting them too hot and melting them.

Get yourself some really fine silver solder for these little parts and cut them and put in place before you solder. Poking a stick of silver solder at the parts when its hot will just result in a lot of wasted expensive solder.

I just finished a burner last night that is for a toy steam engine I've just sold to partially cover a purchase of a Stuart 10V and 504 boiler.

If you interested how I soldered the small parts up look here.
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic29519-0-asc-15.php

I do have an update for my clock too which I hope to post tonight.


----------



## doubletop

Zee

Its sounds like you have a few failed parts lying around so practice stuffing up the soldering on them. You'll soon get better and find you are stuffing up less and less.

However, its not foolproof but the more wimpy you are at approaching it the more likely you are to stuff things up. You know I am well qualified to give you this advice as my boiler thread attests. Now I wonder why I ever had a problem to the point I am now happily using SS on 5/16" nipples.

Be a man and get stuck in. Practice makes perfect

Pete


----------



## SAM in LA

Zee,

Great progress. Like you, my learning curve is fairly steep. The best looking parts I have made are usually my second or third attempt. I look at them as being the price of tuition. Someday I would like to try to build something as complex as a locomotive.

SAM


----------



## arnoldb

Some good progress Zee 

The "wall" parts won't go away - it becomes part of the process :big:. They do get less if you treat every bit of material as though it's the last bit you have though (DAMHIKT : )

As to the solder - You know I aslo had problems with silver soldering, and now think nothing of it. Part was attitude; I dreaded it initially, and didn't get it right until I overcame that dread and just decided to really make a go for it. Like Dean and Pete suggested - practice on some scrap first to get a feel for the process.

And like Dean said, the citric acid is safe as houses - you can actually drink it if you want to taste something really sour  - maybe use some as a cocktail mixer for the lad that's courting your daughter :big:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you Phil, Dean, tmuir, Pete, Sam, and Arnold.

Phil...I know what you mean. No student loans for me either...but a huge debt anyway to my folks, wife, and friends. ;D

Dean...I intend to use hard solder. Even though soft solder may do the job...I want the practice. And yes...I'll practice on scrap first. Thanks for the info on the citric acid.

tmuir...thanks for the link. That was very helpful.

Pete...not to worry...I'll be a man...let's just not ask what kind of man. ;D

SAM...do it...build a loco. ;D Everyone knows you can.

Arnold...your progress has to be measured by leaps and bounds rather than my hops and skips. I remember your threads. As for the boy...neat idea...but I need to include daughter...she's to blame too.

And now...a word from the pit...

Drat.

But first...some pics...

This is about fabricating the fuel tank. I need to square up a sheet of 2.31 x 2.5. Instructions use some blocks and a C-clamp to stiffen the sheet. I also used some parallels to raise the thing. It's sticking out a bit because the C-clamp isn't small enough.







You can see the end mill isn't as deep into the spindle as one would like. But it was the only way to reach the sheet before the spindle head hits the top of the clamp. I'm cutting thin brass so I didn't worry too much about it.

Here's an adjoining side being done. I put the cut edge against the vise and used a bit of leather on the other side.






Does any one else find it interesting that the clamp has the word 'ADJUSTABLE' molded in? Would anyone think it was 'NON_ADJUSTABLE'??

Then I blued the other two sides, scribed them, and trimmed them.

Now it was time to cut two slots. The slots are used to 'hang' the tank on the bearings of the drive wheels.

I know the difference between 9/32 and 3/8. I do. It's 3/32. Duh. But my eyes apparently did not believe what they saw and told me 3/8.

So now I need to order some brass sheet. Are small sheets available from a hobby shop?

Did I say 'drat'? I meant 'rats'. :big:


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, you can find brass sheet at the hardware store is small chunks. I have got some at Ace hardware. in the back with brass tubes and balsa wood and such. You should be able to get it at the hobby store as well. 

And if all else fails, you can buy a brass kickplate at the hardware store, (This is what I have now, but I stole it off my backdoor) this will have a coating on it to prevent tarnishing, if you heat it up this will melt and create a smelly gas that you don't want to breath. So If you go this rout removing the coating is a must.

You are coming right along. I will be interested to see how your silver soldering comes out. I have never tried this either, and watching another "newb" can be very helpful. Judging by your perseverance in the past, I am confident you can do it. 

Kel


----------



## shred

Hobby / model stores and even places like Hobby Lobby (they're everywhere around here) carry small sections of brass sheet and tubing. IIRC it's something like 4"x10" at the largest sizes, and most don't have much thicker than 1/32". Brass kickplate is a pretty good source if you make sure to get real, 100% brass, not brass-finish or whatever... you also have to clean off the lacquer.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kel and Shred.
I'll check out the hobby and hardware store.


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## zeeprogrammer

Hobby shop has .015 and .032. I was looking for .02x.
I think I'll try the .015. Fuel tank is boxy and light so the flex shouldn't be a problem.

But I am wondering about silver soldering. Any cautions? Thanks.


----------



## arnoldb

Zee, you might have to be careful not to keep too much heat on a specific point, or it will melt the plate. Just move the torch (I presume you are going to use a butane torch or similar) around on the work edges to try and distribute the heat with a smallish flame.
You do like challenges though  - you might have been better off with the slightly thicker .032 for a start.

Give it a go though - there's nothing like trying !


----------



## Deanofid

I think Arnold has the right idea here, Zee. If you can, use the thicker material. 
You will probably need about a medium sized flame if you're using a hardware store torch,
like a BernZomatic. 
Don't know what size solder you have, or the silver content, either. If you have kind of fat diameter
wire, like 1/16", you can smash it flat with a hammer, if that will help you keep it in place while you 
heat. What kind of flux did you get? White paste, I hope?

Dean


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## mklotz

Is it really necessary to *silver* solder a fuel tank? Soft (e.g., 4% Ag) solder should be completely adequate and a lot easier to work with on such thin material.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold. Thanks Dean.

That's exactly what I was worried about.
I think then I'll work with the .032.
The bill of material actually called that out but they sent .022.

I have SAFETY-SILV(r) 45 and 56 kits so the flux came with.
Unfortunately I got the 1/16" and I'm thinking I'd rather have gotten the 1/32.

Darn...I just opened one of the kits and I can feel it's very very different from soft solder. It's like coat hanger wire! Much much stiffer than I'd imagined. I'd thought I might be able to trim lengthwise. I don't think so. At least not with the equipment I was thinking of. Any ideas?

I saw one of your recent posts Dean about sources for silver solder. I think I'll look around for 45 in a 1/32.

I also have a BernzOmatic kit...Power Propylene and torch.
The torch is marked TS4000. I have no idea how well this will all work...
but it will work well enough to do the job or teach me how to do better. ;D

Oops...pizza's here. Bye.

Rats...just saw your post Marv...pizza has to wait. No...it's not necessary to silver solder the fuel tank. I didn't see the harm and was thinking it would be good practice. Perhaps I should rethink? I'll rethink once I do some practicing.

Thanks Marv.


----------



## Deanofid

We tried to talk him into soft solder already, Marv. He's intent on learning the hard stuff! 
What a silly notion, that learning.

Zee, the 1/16" stuff is a little fat, but it will work okay. It won't hinder you much. The smaller diameter is just easier to position and keep from running. Runs won't hurt the piece, functionally.

You have the right stuff as far as solder and flux are concerned. Use the 56%. Melts at a lower temp.
Yes, it's hard wire. If you want to flatten it, you have to pound it pretty vigorously. 
Just use small snips spaced apart along your joint. If you put a continuous piece of it along a joint, it will 
end up all over the place. 

Ask more questions. Enjoy pizza! What a happy thing.

Dean


----------



## mklotz

I can't encourage you enough to practice soldering with a torch but there's no reason to make it unduly hard for yourself.

Practice on scrap. Practicing on something you hope to eventually be a part is bad psychology. Try as you might, you'll be worrying about the part and not concentrating on observing the soldering *process*.

It's highly unlikely that any model you build will *need* 0.015" material silver soldered. Most things that *need* silver soldering need it to withstand extreme heat or strong forces - neither an application where it's likely that such thin material will be used.

Get or make a small, smooth anvil and a small ball pein hammer. Clean both throughly so you don't embed dirt or foreign material into the SS. Pound the end of the SS flat until it's on the order of 1/32" thick. Then with dikes you can cut off small pieces (jewelers call them pillions) which are coated in flux and stuck into place at the joint - on the side opposite where the torch will be applied so they are not blown away by the torch.

Two joints you should practice...

Two plates flat against each other so you can watch the flow of the solder into the join when you reach the right temperature.

A butt joint between a large rod and a small rod so you can grok the need to heat the big piece and not the joint. Test the joint by trying to snap the small rod off. It should bend before the joint fails.

Dean types faster than I.


----------



## Kermit

I second the hammer and anvil approach put forth by Marv.

I used a large hammer held in a vise as an anvil. Start with a piece of wire long enough to keep your finger'nails' out of the way.  :big:

It(the coat hanger stuff) should spread out to almost 1/4 inch wide(6mm) and invariably will curve one way like a long flat banana. <--AFTER you beat on it and stuff, of course :

I'm loving the ride Zee, and the price of a ticket is right. 

getting railroaded,
Kermit


----------



## Maryak

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I can't encourage you enough to practice soldering with a torch but there's no reason to make it unduly hard for yourself.
> Get or make a small, smooth anvil



Zee a piece of railway line makes a great small anvil, (removing same from a working track is not a good idea :). 

Almost forgot - nice collection of parts. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow. What a great set of replies. Thanks Dean, Marv, Kermit, and Bob.

Dean...thanks...I was wondering about bits or strips of solder. My plan of experimenting has gotten larger.

Marv...'grok'...I had to look that one up...coined by Heinlein! "Stranger in a Strange Land". It's been years and years since I read that. A Martian word at that! Well that gives me yet another perspective on you.

Good advice on the types of joints to practice. Thanks. I was thinking along similar lines when I was reading Stew's boiler thread.

Thanks Kermit for the description of what to expect when hammering the solder. That's very helpful.

Bob...interesting...I've seen small lengths (a few inches) of track...now I'm trying to remember where. I think it was a friend...I could have stolen bought begged for it.

Well...don't get too anxious. I'm anxious enough. I have 4 more parts to make...and then some fixtures...and then I can embark on the 'adventure'.

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## dsquire

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Kermit for the description of what to expect when hammering the solder. That's very helpful.
> 
> Bob...interesting...I've seen small lengths (a few inches) of track...now I'm trying to remember where. I think it was a friend...I could have stolen bought begged for it.



Zee

Do this the easy way .Take about 12" of your hard solder wire and a roll of duct tape and go for a drive and find a railway track. When no one is looking take the wire solder and lay it on the center of the rail and tape it down with a piece of duct tape from end to end. Now go home and have a martini or whatever. Go back tomorrow or after the train has gone thru and collect you piece of solder. It should now be 1/4 to 1/2" wide depending on the weight and number of rail cars that ran over it. Sure beats swinging a hammer and you don't have to try and drag 6 feet of rail home. 

Cheers 

Don


----------



## Kermit

HEY that works wonders on a penny as well.

The only trouble was locating the penny afterwards.  :big:


----------



## bearcar1

Hi Zee, here's yet *another* : suggestion for you regarding the flattening out of your solder. Go to a jeweler in the area, or call, and ask them if they could/would be willing to do it for you. They have a roll and could set it up to do what you ask, whether it be reduce the diameter or flatten it into a ribbon, one would be amazed what they can do to a piece of metal. Of course some small *ahem* bribe token of appreciation might go a long way in helping persuade them, you know, like a full bag of M&Ms :big: That is of course if they make it to the store. ;D

Just an idea. Best of luck, oh, and be safe if you find yourself out and about walking the rails in search of short pieces of track, many people get hit and killed/injured every year by not paying attention and a train rolls through. That and you would be trespassing as rail right of ways are privately owned property.

BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

While a good anvil, conventional or ex-RR rail, is a valuable addition to any shop, you don't need anything that ponderous to flatten silver solder. A small chunk of 3/4 or 1" steel plate will work just fine and be a good bit easier to store and manipulate. Being unhardened, it won't last forever but, when totally munged it can be surfaced on the mill and restored to life. Drill a 1/2" hardie hole halfway through and you can mount all sorts of home-made hardie tools for doing miniature forging tasks.

More useful to me than a large anvil is what jewelers call a "bench block". Mine came from Micro-Mark...

http://www.micromark.com/TOOLMAKERS-BENCH-BLOCK,7597.html

It isn't obvious from the photo but the underside is hollow, i.e., the thing resembles an upside down, heavy-walled, cylindrical steel cup. This is a distinct advantage when using it to support a part while driving out a pin through one of the holes. Once freed, the pin is trapped in the well formed by the underside and doesn't fly across the room, never to be seen again.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Don, Kermit, Jim, and Marv. Some good suggestions...
and some I won't follow. :big:

Worked on the bottom part of the fuel tank today.

Success! ...of a sort.
And a surprise at the end!...but not for some of you. ;D

Took the recently purchased 4x10 sheet of 0.032 brass and chopped off a piece for trimming to 2.31 x 2.50. (Remember that. 2.31 x 2.50.)

Earlier post showed how I did that. When finished I removed it and measured. 2.31 x 2.50. yep. right on.

Marked where the slots would be and drilled and filed them. I think there was a better way to do that. I had the sheet in the vise with some support...but still, I had to be careful lest the sheet buckled or rotated. I probably should have clamped on scrap and drill through into that. Then milled the slots. That or wait for a 9/32 end mill. Anyway...here it is...







See those slots? Perfectly measured. (There's a hint for you.)

Now for bending. I bought the brake from Micro-Mark that Marv had suggested. It uses magnets to clamp to the vise. Too low so I shimmed up from beneath. A parallel and some measuring gauges.






Here's the first bend...






Then I rotated the thing and did the other side. I went too far though and the outer edge hit the top of the vise and bent the middle a little. I figured I'd be able to correct it.






To complete the bend I did the following...(this is all according to the instructions that came with the kit...I wouldn't have known how to do this)...






And here it is...a beautiful thing in my eyes...






Does it fit the loco?






Wow!

Wait.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

It's supposed to fit inside the frames. I put the slots along the wrong edge.

Let's apply some salt and measure how well I screwed up...

In order for the tank to fit the outside instead of the inside of the frames, the middle of the tank needs to be wider by twice the thickness of the sheet plus twice the thickness of the frame.

2*(.032 + .0625) = .189

2.5 - 2.31 = 0.19

I'm within a thou. A perfect fit. I know my government would buy that.

 :big: :big: :big:

It's Friday. I ain't waiting for 5 o'clock. ;D
My rule is to celebrate both the successes and the failures. I like to celebrate.

Oh yeah...and 'rats'.


----------



## ttrikalin

;D 

Nice!

Leave it outside! 

;D 

t


----------



## arnoldb

Rof} Rof} I'm not laughing AT you Zee; I'm laughing WITH you Rof} Rof}

That's a bummer; had my own one today, and laughing it off is the best. Some liquid high in alcoholic content helps at the end of the day -I'll join you on one *beer* ;D

Tomorrow's another day Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, great job bending the brass accurately. :bow: 

Is't it........ yeah I think it is Saturday, or at least in the Central Time Zone :big:.

Kel


----------



## mklotz

Damn, that's the prettiest silver soldering practice coupon I've ever seen.

Maybe you can solder a handle on it and make a nice little M&M scoop out of it.

What's that? Oh, you wanted sympathy. In that case...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0[/ame]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks ttrikalin. (I can't call you 't'...that's my wife's moniker. Teresa. Her family calls her 'tt' but I shortened it. No sense wasting time. IF you know what I mean.)

Arnold...thanks. I did see your post. I couldn't come up with anything meaningful to say. I'm just impressed with the work you do.

kel...oh crap! I think I'm more embarrassed about getting the day of the week wrong. I'm not embarrassed at all about the screw-up. That's just a sign of inexperience (that's right...inexperience). But getting the day wrong is...is...what do you call it...darn if I can remember now...it was just yesterday...man it sucks to get old.

Marv...Gilda...nice touch. I know you're older than me but your soul isn't. And yes...that part will be used.


----------



## kcmillin

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I think I'm more embarrassed about getting the day of the week wrong. I'm not embarrassed at all about the screw-up. That's just a sign of inexperience (that's right...inexperience). But getting the day wrong is...is...what do you call it...darn if I can remember now...it was just yesterday...man it sucks to get old.



Don't feel bad, After reading It, I thought it was Friday, and had to double check my measurements. (I usually dont work Saturday, but today I did, and I was off my standard schedule) It feels like Friday, but no, I have to work tomorrow, Sunday, darn. I will just pretend its Friday all weekend.

Kel


----------



## mklotz

> I know you're older than me but your soul isn't.



Too right! When the sense of humor goes, it's time to set up the rocking chair on the porch. I'll be 70 next year and, I swear, I don't feel a day over 85.

You could bend that brass into a snazzy clip, mount it on an oiled walnut base and use it to hold a card on which is writ, in large letters...

Mark all the assymetries
on the part
with a Sharpie
before cutting metal,
Dummy.

(last line optional)

My card like that says...

Check the algorithm
at ALL the parameter
extrema,
Doofus


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks kel. Sorry if messed up your day. :big:

Marv...dummy...doofus...doof...goof... 't' calls me 'idiot' or 'turd'...they all fit (me) at one point or another...as well as many others that I won't mention here. ;D 

Well...instead of the celebratory drink...I took a swim and spa with 't'. But only because she interrupted me as I headed for the fridge.

After which...






Sort of looks similar? But it ain't...






NOW I'll have that celebratory drink...but for success.

Thanks for watching everyone.

Oh..this time I drilled into scrap material and sure 'nuff...a lot less clean up.


----------



## Deanofid

Oh! This is such happy news after going to a wedding. Good for you, Zee. The correct one is just as pretty as the first one, and it even fits! What a bonus.

Enjoy the rest of your (Satur)day!

Dean


----------



## 4156df

Zee,
Looking good! I'm looking forward to the next step.
Dennis


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and Dennis. Very much appreciated.

Kept going...

Here's the top of the fuel tank...same process as the bottom...






This is what it looks like when put together...






The left end of the top is a little high but that's because I haven't rounded the corners at the bottom yet. Also, I haven't trimmed the .125 tube yet so it's long.

AND NOW I'LL HAVE THAT CELEBRATORY DRINK. YAY!

Happy Memorial Day everyone.
And many many thanks to those that have served.


----------



## bearcar1

Z, you have gotten quite a bit done today, including the *ahem* interruption from the mrs. Well done. The parts I tank parts I mean .. :big: 

BC1
Jim


----------



## tmuir

Thats got to be the most accurately made meths burner I've ever seen.
Most of mine are first measured with just a ruler or even just the 'squint one eye' method.
You folding also looks more professional that mine.

Have you got the wick material for the burner yet?
The best material to use I've found is the fibreglass rope that is used to seal slow combustion fire place doors.
You can find it on ebay.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Jim and tmuir.

tmuir...that's some high compliments. Thank you. I'll try and get better photographs ;D.

Some wick material came with the kit. I don't know what it is...but it looks like cotton braid...about 3/16" diameter, 15" long.


----------



## Deanofid

You really banged out some parts today, Zee. You get more done making mistakes _and_ good
parts than I do just making mistakes. Tank and burners look really nice!

Dean


----------



## SAM in LA

Zee,

Nice tank.

I enjoy reading about the journey that leads to your finished parts.

Good information and humorous to boot.

SAM


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and SAM.

I'm working on the safety valve today.

Print calls out a 1/4"-24 thread. Anyone know where I can get a die?
That's what I thought too. ;D

It cost me a little time looking for it in my die set until I remembered I'd done a couple of threads for the model already.
It's 1/4"-28. A typo that the vendor should have found had they built their own model from their own prints.

Also want to mention what a great idea it was to a get 5C collet set and some blocks so they can be used in the vise. This has saved me several times of switching out the vise for an indexer. Thanks guys.

The last operation on the valve is to drill to a depth and then modify a drill bill by grinding the tip at a 15 degree angle. The idea is to create a little hill that a ball bearing will sit on.

I did one part (well two...the burner tubes) using a modified drill bit as end mill. That didn't go so well. Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well all the parts are made.
Drilling the safety valve with the modified drill bit went well.

Here's some assembly pics. The safety valve and steam dome are held by poster tac...that's why they're at an angle.












Some areas need some cleaning up.

I discovered one of the port blocks doesn't perfectly line up with the cylinder. I don't know if that means a problem for the steam port...but I'll check that before soldering.

The pivot pins need to be shortened or the stretcher needs to be re-tapped.

Now I need to learn and practice silver soldering. Then make up some jigs. Then finish the model.

The instructions have you solder the steam pipe to the ports while the engine is assembled. I don't think I'll do that. I have to think I'll discolor the frame or other parts. That's one jig I have to make. Also a jig to solder the burner tubes. And another jig to solder the bushings for the safety valve and steam dome. I'm a little worried about the last...the bushings are pretty loose.

The other worry I have is that I can't imagine the boiler tube will survive the soldering. That's okay so long as it works.


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, that's looking as pretty as a picture :bow:

I don't know how the "chrome" plating on the boiler will stand up though. I'd be a bit cautious as well - don't know if silver solder will stick to it, so be safe and clean off any chrome where the end caps have to be soldered.

Jigs ;D - most useful things Thm: - now make them and get to soldering ;D - I'm keeping fingers and toes crossed for you!

Regards, Arnold


----------



## Deanofid

It's quite beautiful, Zee!
You and I have talked some about silver soldering, frame discoloration, etc. Hopefully, some of the other older hands at this will pipe up and advise you. I just don't know what to expect on the chrome tube.

On the bushings, you say "loose". How loose? (How many thousandths clearance between them.)

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold! I'll need them fingers and toes!

Thanks Dean. But I don't think I can accurately measure the looseness.

Instructions call for sanding the ends that the caps fit over. So I think that answers your question Arnold. As for the bushings...there's no sanding...I assume that the edge of the hole is sufficient.

Instructions have the end caps soldered first and then a jig used to hold the bushings while they are soldered one at a time. That's what concerns me...if the holes for the bushings are crap...then I may lose the end caps.

So...any thoughts about how loose is loose? I have a spare drain pipe...maybe I'll make that one up before I try soldering. At this early game (i.e. my limited experience) the 2nd attempt is almost always better than the 1st so I might have better holes for the bushings.

I figure the chrome is going to be toast. That's okay if the loco works...I mean gee...I've hardly started...if this works...well I can't express it.

Thanks again.


----------



## b.lindsey

Great progress zeep! At this rate it won't be long before you have that little beauty steaming up. Do they give you any idea how long it should run on a filling or water?

Bill


----------



## mklotz

I did a Google search on soldering to chrome pipe and the consensus seems to be that it can't be done.

So, now the question becomes, "How to get a neat band of chrome removed without farking up the rest of the pipe?"

Dipping it into a shallow pan of concentrated HCl might do it but that's not very homeowner friendly.

My suggestion is...

Make a wooden split collet to fit the pipe exterior. Cement emery paper into the collet. Mount the pipe in the lathe, lowest speed, and fix the collet to the pipe end. Clamp the collet so it can't revolve with the spinning pipe and so it can't move axially along the pipe. Turn on the lathe and grind away. Ensure that the ways are protected from the emery grit.

When done with this procedure, carefully remove the pipe from the lathe and throw it as far away as humanly possible. Get a proper piece of copper pipe and proceed with the construction of the boiler.

My biggest concern here is that, with the high heat required for silver soldering, you'll burn all the zinc out of the brass and be left with something too weak to withstand the steam pressure. At best you'll have a dribbler; at worst, a locomotive shaped grenade.

Are the commercial toy brass boilers (e.g. Wilesco) silver soldered? I'm betting they aren't. I'll bet they're put together with some form of soft solder.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Bill, thanks for looking.

Instructions say it should take 4 to 6 minutes for the boiler to come up to steam. Then I'm supposed to wait for the timer to have 1 minute remaining (from what I don't know) and repeatedly lift the engine off the track (holding it level) and spin the rear wheels in the forward direction by hand and let it run for a moment.

If the engine runs too fast, then I'm supposed to make sure the wicks are not too high or lift the engine to bleed off pressure.

When the timer's alarm sounds (I'm not sure when it was set) then reset for 20 minutes of loco run time. And top off. After 20 minutes it's supposedly 50% of the water down.

Hm. I think I'll get my son-in-law to run this. Or the other daughter's new beau. Better yet...I'll get them both involved. Yeah.

Obviously the instructions are a bit hit-n-miss. There'll be a lot of learning going on.

I just saw Marv's post...I'll respond to that separately. He makes a good question.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> When done with this procedure, carefully remove the pipe from the lathe and throw it as far away as humanly possible. Get a proper piece of copper pipe and proceed with the construction of the boiler.



 :big: Yeah. I do wonder. Mainly because I have yet to see an example on youtube or by anyone else using a chrome drain pipe.

See previous post about sanding the ends...still not convinced about the bushings though.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Are the commercial toy brass boilers (e.g. Wilesco) silver soldered? I'm betting they aren't. I'll bet they're put together with some form of soft solder.



I've wondered that. It just seems that for this kind of model...(Wilesco etc.) that most people (students, schools, etc.) would have used soft solder.

So I'm interested in what people think too.

Now I'm thinking of giving it a go with a drain pipe but some other experimental pieces. If it doesn't go well...then maybe get some 1 1/4" copper pipe.

I'd almost put this aside as unworkable except that I've seen some good examples...some forum members have posted them in this thread.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee,I think you will damage the chrome plate when silver soldering and as far as I know it will have to be removed from the areas you want to solder.In my humble opinion boilers should only be made from copper and bushes from bronze due to the fact copper has a greater strength and a lot better thermal conductivity and doesn't suffer from the zinc problem Ive experienced commercial brass fittings failing within 2 years use all be it heavy use.If you are not sure or worried about joints remelting on the second heat up why not use different grades of silver solder to assemble the boiler.Remember silver solder usually has a higher remelt temp not like soft solder.If you decide to purchase copper tube try to buy some of the same gauge as you already have as it will have a marked effect on the boilers performance if you go to far away from the designed gauge. Concerning Wilesco products I believe the gas fired toys are hard soldered and the others high melting point soft but correct me if wrong.Hope this makes some sense as I'm not a great communicator.At the end of the day why not have a go with what you have and should it not work out you've only lost a little bit of tube some solder and time and you will learn a good deal .I find silver soldering to be easier then soft.
regards Frazer


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, maybe write Dave Wimshurst and E. Chris, (pg 2-4, I think) and ask them what kind of solder they used on their brass boilers, and did the plans say what kind to use.

If you solder the ends on the boiler tube first, then do the bushings on top, it's very unlikely you will be able to heat the entire boiler enough while soldering the bushings to cause the ends to fall off.  It takes a lot of heat to remelt the solder a second time, and you will only be heating the top of the piece when doing the bushings.

How much is too much clearance? I dunno. I know I've easily soldered brass parts with .010-.015" gaps with 56% silver. 

Far as the zinc problem mentioned by Marv, I'm skeptical _in this case_. Zinc boils at over 1600°. Melts at about half that, but it's alloyed with copper, here. How will it get out? It is true that repeated high heating of brass weakens it by making it brittle, but you are not going to solder it every day. Normally, it's only going to be just above the boiling temp of water. 15 psi, right?

Dean


----------



## tmuir

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Are the commercial toy brass boilers (e.g. Wilesco) silver soldered? I'm betting they aren't. I'll bet they're put together with some form of soft solder.



Most are soft soldered.
Mamod are mostly soft soldered although they have made a few with brass boilers that are silver soldered. As far as I know all Wilescos are soft soldered.
But all Jensens are silver soldered with the except of their really early stuff (1930s) which had rivetted then soft soldered boilers.
I would never recommend making a large hugh pressure boiler from brass but smaller toy ones are ok. 
I have seen lots of old brass boilers that have suffered from dezinc that have pinholes in the end caps but never the boiler tube myself and most of these ruined boilers can be traced back to being stored away for years either in damp conditions or with water in the boiler.
I have an 85 year old Bing that I had to make a new endcap for due to someone stealing all the original fitting off it and when I opened up the boiler it was all good inside and since has been steamed several times.
I guess what I'm saying is for small 'toy' boilers running at low pressures that are only steamed occasionally and are emptied after use the brass boiler will last longer than us.
I look forward to seeing your loco running Zee.


----------



## Maryak

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Far as the zinc problem mentioned by Marv, I'm skeptical _in this case_. Zinc boils at over 1600°. Melts at about half that, but it's alloyed with copper, here. How will it get out? It is true that repeated high heating of brass weakens it by making it brittle, but you are not going to solder it every day. Normally, it's only going to be just above the boiling temp of water. 15 psi, right?
> 
> Dean



Dean,

Please don't be skeptical, it's a fact and it's caused by galvanic action as a result of temperature differences between various parts of the boiler as well as the fact that boiler water is seldom pure as it is usually treated with a compound to give a pH around 10.5.

Goodbye Zinc followed by goodbye boiler.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer, Dean, tmuir, and Bob.

Dean...yep 15psi.

Bob...I think Marv (and Dean) was talking about burning the zinc out while you're talking about leaching the zinc. I could be wrong though. I can understand the zinc leaching out and I'm not concerned about that. The current plan is for the loco to run (he said) a few times and then be placed on display. Plans change though.

I reviewed the instructions...they don't specify the type of solder to use. Not soft or hard...just '1/32 solder wire' and used like I do in electronics...that is, heat the parts up and touch the wire to it. (I don't mean electronic rosin-core solder.)

Is the stuff at Home Depot soft solder?


----------



## Kermit

Any solder that is around 1/3 or 1/2 lead is a soft solder.  Lead and Tin both melt at very low temps.  Tin lower than lead.

Adding silver up to 5 or 6 percent will raise the melt temp about 50 to 100 F, but it will still be a soft solder because of the amount of lead.

Kermit


----------



## mklotz

> Is the stuff at Home Depot soft solder?



HD sells hard solder via the web but in the store I've never seen anything other than soft solder. Some of the soft solder says "silver solder" on the packaging but, if you check the percentages, it's only 4% or so, thus soft.

This is California though; the situation may be different in Pennsylvania.


----------



## shred

mklotz  said:
			
		

> HD sells hard solder via the web but in the store I've never seen anything other than soft solder. Some of the soft solder says "silver solder" on the packaging but, if you check the percentages, it's only 4% or so, thus soft.
> 
> This is California though; the situation may be different in Pennsylvania.


Same in Texas. Can't buy 'hard' or 'real' silver solder at HD or Lowes in-store. Deceptively-advertised soft solders are available.


----------



## SAM in LA

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I reviewed the instructions...they don't specify the type of solder to use. Not soft or hard...just '1/32 solder wire' and used like I do in electronics...that is, heat the parts up and touch the wire to it. (I don't mean electronic rosin-core solder.)
> 
> Is the stuff at Home Depot soft solder?



Zee,

I just went through this exercise regarding Home Depot's solder.

They have "Silver Bearing" solder. I looked it up on the manufactures site and it has a negliable amount of silver and its lead free. I ordered some solder from a site that Dean mentioned in his reply to my question.

http://store.sra-solder.com/section.php/19/1

I ordered the 

WES5625 BAg-7 56% AG Wire Solder .025 Cadmium Free

and

FLS601 White Brazing Flux #601

I have not tried it yet.

I hope this is helpful.

SAM


----------



## bearcar1

All of this talk of solder brings me to inquire about a product that I have seen advertised as TIX solder. It is sold as short (3"?) pieces in a plastic tube and require a *special* flux during use. Anyway, it is advertised as having a relatively low melting point yet high strength. Can anyone comment as to it's usefulness or effectiveness in this type of application.

BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

This site...

http://www.shorinternational.com/Solders.htm

lists its melting point at 275 degF - not something I'd want to use around a boiler.


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, I cant help you with the Silver Solder, I'm learning here too.

However, I have used thin electrical solder in applications where I probably should not have. eg, I made a boiler and it was able to withstand 120 psi. It had a square box with over 4 square inches of surface area, and two sides soldered to it on the bottom of an old propane canister. Do the math on that, and it was well over 450 pounds of force pushing on this cobbled together boiler. I had it steamed many times at 30 psi with no problem at all, but when I increased the steam pressure to 60 + psi and about 325 degrees, disaster struck. I will not condone soft soldering a boiler, but I just had to share my experience with the suprising strength of soft solder. It was just standard thin 40/60 as far as I can remember. Most likely what you use for electrical work.

I have tested a soft solder butt joint with a 4 inch lever and a fish scale, it maxed out at 50 pounds and never broke.

Soft solder is some mighty strong stuff. but DONT Make Boilers out of it.

Hope this clears some things up. 

Kel


Oh ya, DONT SOFT SOLDER BOILERS

one more thing, Soft soldering boilers is not a good idea.

Don't 
Don't 
Don't.


----------



## bearcar1

Good Lord, I did not know that the TIX solder had a melting temp of only 275*. That definitely is not a good thing for boiler applications. Thank you Marv, I can scratch that stuff off of my list of products to try. It would however seem to be quite useful in jewelry making class ;D 

BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

I think that it was developed for use in jewelry repair work. At least that's what my wife used it for when she was doing that sort of thing.

I vaguely remember a TV ad where it was shown being melted with a common match. Great for field repair in the event of a bling breakdown, but not terribly useful in the shop.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

I just jumped in the truck, drove down to the local welder's supply store and viola! Silver solder and flux galore...

Kudos on the progress Zee. As always, your threads encourage more than the average amount of helpful posts and so make for good reading. 

-Trout


----------



## zeeprogrammer

This is great stuff. Thanks all.

I pulled out my Oatey silver solder from some plumbing work I've done. It doesn't mention what the silver content is. Nor does their site. The MSDS simply says 1 to 5%. You'd think that if something is called 'silver' they'd call out the content. A little googling seems to indicate 4%. (To be fair...I may not have looked hard enough.)

I'm thinking 4% will work. The wire is certainly stiffer than the electronic stuff is that I'm used to.

Remember...15psi.

I'm thinking I'll practice doing a bushing on the boiler tube I have. That should address many of my newbie concerns. Then I'll cut up the backup drain pipe and have a go.

And then I'll rewrite this post. :big:

Hm..actually...since there's two bushings...I think I'll try the soft solder and the 56 and see what happens.

Nothing beats 'book learning' than 'doing learning'. ;D



			
				Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> As always, your threads encourage more than the average amount of helpful posts



That's cause I need the help. :big: :big: :big:

Thanks Trout.


----------



## mklotz

> I just jumped in the truck, drove down to the local welder's supply store and viola! Silver solder and flux galore...



A welding store that sells musical instruments too. You really are lucky.


----------



## Captain Jerry

Marv,

Good shot. Almost slipped by me. I think it ought to be spelled "Wah-La" anyway.

Jerry


----------



## Deanofid

There's a lot of confusion here. Mainly, because us modelers, in the United States at least, don't call stuff what it is.

1. Solder is solder. It's defined. 

2. Hard solder is "no such thing". We use that misnomer because we do. 



			
				Kermit  said:
			
		

> Any solder that is around 1/3 or 1/2 lead is a soft solder. Lead and Tin both melt at very low temps. Tin lower than lead.
> Adding silver up to 5 or 6 percent will raise the melt temp about 50 to 100 F, but it will still be a soft solder because of the amount of lead.
> Kermit



Solder isn't defined by how much of something it has in it. If it joins two pieces of metal without melting the base metals, at a temperature of less than 840° f, it is solder. That's all. Doesn't matter what it has in it.




			
				shred  said:
			
		

> Same in Texas. Can't buy 'hard' or 'real' silver solder at HD or Lowes in-store. Deceptively-advertised soft solders are available.



There's no real "hard" solder. Solders that have low silver content, usually sold in hardware stores, aren't deceptively named. If they melt and join metals below that 840° f, and have silver in them, they are rightly named as silver bearing solder.

What WE call silver solder, or hard solder, is not solder at all. It's brazing alloy, and when we "hard solder" something, we are not soldering. We are brazing. Joining two metals with a filler metal that melts above 840° f, but less than the melting temperature of the base metals is brazing, not soldering.

If you buy something that says "solder" on the package, it's soft solder. All solder is soft solder, by definition. The people who make what WE call "hard solder" call it by its proper name: Brazing alloy. So, if you want what WE call hard solder, you need to buy silver brazing alloy. 

It's no wonder we get confused on what to buy. It's all our fault for calling it by the wrong name.
I do it, and I know better. It's less confusing to the confusion that way.

Dean


----------



## Troutsqueezer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> A welding store that sells musical instruments too. You really are lucky.



Hey, I might have found a welding supplier who also sells that particular genus of plant species and wasn't referring to musical instruments at all. Most likely though the "i" slipped before the "o" when I passed out from all the alcohol and my head slammed into the keyboard. *beer*

-T


----------



## Kermit

Columbia Encyclopedia: solder 
(s&#335;d'&#601;r), metal alloy used in the molten state as a metallic binder. The type of solder to be used is determined by the metals to be united. Soft solders are commonly composed of lead and tin and have low melting points. Hard solders (i.e., silver solders) have high melting points and are suited for use with ferrous and high-melting-point nonferrous alloys. Areas to be soldered are cleaned and coated with a flux (such as hydrochloric acid or borax) to prevent oxides from separating the solder from the surface. When brass is used in the solder or when brass surfaces are to be joined, the process is known as brazing, though the name is sometimes applied also to other hard soldering.

Found lots of entries like this one, but couldn't find mention of that set of facts you threw out there. Where is such information hidden from us mere mortals? Inquiring minds have to know.

Edit, found a mention of definition by temperature. 427 C. Above is brazing and below is soldering.


----------



## mklotz

Dean,

I've read and heard of a 800 degF (427 degC) distinction between soldering and brazing before but I've never encountered an explanation of why that particular temperature was chosen. Can you provide any information on that point?

Such a nice round number sounds suspiciously arbitrary. It makes it a bit difficult to believe it's based on some physical transition.


----------



## mklotz

Just to further confuse the issue, this reference...

http://www.uniweld.com/catalog/alloys/silver_brazing_alloys/intro.htm

seems to indicate that the 800 degF breakpoint is indeed arbitrary although it doesn't explain how it was selected.

Dean's 840 degF breakpoint is supported by this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

Wikipedia article which contains the following puzzling quote...

Colloquially, the inaccurate terms "silver soldering" or "hard soldering" are used, to distinguish from the process of low temperature soldering that is done with solder having a melting point below 450 °C (842 °F), or, as traditionally defined in the United States, having a melting point below 800 °F (427 °C).


----------



## joe d

Hi

Machinery's Handbook gives the 800 degrees F break-point between soldering and brazing. (pg 1249 in the 24th Edition)

Joe


----------



## Deanofid

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Found lots of entries like this one, but couldn't find mention of that set of facts you threw out there. Where is such information hidden from us mere mortals? Inquiring minds have to know.
> 
> Edit, found a mention of definition by temperature. 427 C. Above is brazing and below is soldering.



Kermit, the "facts I threw out there" come from the AWS. That's the American Welding Society. They are the people who assign specifications to such things as welding rod, brazing alloys, and also the definition of solder. The U.S. Government takes their specifications seriously, and uses them in military construction. The AWS also provides inspectors (to the gubment, and to private business) to maintain all types of metal joining standards in the United States. They are the word when it comes to this.

Marv, the temperature break between soldering and brazing, as specified by the AWS is 840 deg f. I don't know why they picked that point. Same as they also set the spec for 45% non-cad silver wire as BAg-5. Don't know why they picked that number, but that's the spec for that wire.

From the same page you linked to earlier from Uniweld, their product page that has what we call hard solder does not have the words "hard solder" anywhere on it. They properly call it "silver brazing alloy". See link;
http://uniweld.com/catalog/alloys/silver_brazing_alloys/silver_brazing_alloys.htm

The Harris Calorific Co., one of the largest manufacturers in the States, gives the same AWS specs I mentioned earlier on this page;
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/faq.asp

The Harris site is a wealth of info. Just remember if you want what we call hard solder, they don't have it. They have silver brazing wire. 

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/alloys.asp?id=30

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/FillerMetalChart.asp

Some larger library branches may have this book:
Modern Welding by Althouse, Turnquist, Bowditch & Bowditch. It will tell you most things you would want to know about AWS welding, brazing, and soldering specs. 

I'm not making this stuff up. I was in the trade for a good long time, and had to know it for certification. Some of it actually stuck with me.

Dean


----------



## mklotz

Dean,

I'm certainly not suggesting that you are "making this stuff up". I've always been aware that above 800/840 the process is termed brazing and the material used is brazing alloy, not solder. 

My interest has always been in the temperature. I had fondly hoped that it was associated with some physical phenomenon that might cast insight into why the experts felt it necessary to use separate terms above and below the transition temperature. That doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## Deanofid

Sorry Marv, I didn't mean to sound as though _you_ were accusing me of something. Not at all!
Only meant to be clear that this blabber I'm putting "out there" is founded by an actual authority.

I also didn't mean there was no reason for the 840° f temp difference point. I just don't know it. 
I do know that some numbers for alloys are picked out of thin air. For instance, a welding electrode, e7018, has two numbers that definitely mean something in the physical world. The "70" is minimum tensile strength in thousands of pounds. The "1" and the "8" are simply picked and adhered to for maintenance of the code. The "1" means the rod can be use in all positions, and the "8" tells the flux composition and polarity particulars, though you have to look up the AWS chart to find out what that is, (or memorize it).  

I looked in a couple of books I have here, and didn't come across the reason for 840° f. I expect it's a point that means _something_ to them.

Zee, sorry for the tangent in your thread. 
I would like to hear more about your boiler, someday..

Dean


----------



## mklotz

Yes, Carl, I apologize too for dragging your thread so far off course.

How is the silver brazing practice going? Have you set anything important on fire yet?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Zee, sorry for the tangent in your thread.





			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Yes, Carl, I apologize too for dragging your thread so far off course.



No worries. It's all information...can't complain about that.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I would like to hear more about your boiler, someday..



You will, someday.. :big:

I hope to run by HD tomorrow...if I find what I think is suitable silver solder and firebricks or hearth material...then that's the way I'll go. I think the 'hard' solder approach is over the top. The instructions don't call for it...and tmuir and Marv's comments seem to support the 'soft' solder approach.

I could be wrong here...but it also seems that most everyone who use hard silver solder...cut it, flatten it, form it, etc. Maybe for small jobs they poke with the wire...

If I'm trying to keep the chrome plating (sanding off where the joint is though) then it seems 'difficult' to form the silver solder properly.

I also think I'll redo the boiler. I'm not happy with the holes for the bushings. So I'll use the one I have with some scrap brass and practice. That'll answer a lot of questions.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, Now I'm confused(not a difficult thing to do) it must be a difference in terminology but if your looking for info try Reeves2000 site or Johnson Mathey as theres plenty of info on melt temps etc.When I drill for boiler bushes I drill in small steps to prevent me from rediscovering the lost art of hexagonal holes and finish with a reamer and then make the bush to fit the hole.Best of luck with the trial


----------



## mklotz

If you can get the type of fire "brick" that can be cut with a hand wood saw, get it. (Ask the clerk.) Makes it a lot easier to 'tailor' the hearth to your specific requirements - now and in the future. I have some that I've bored holes into (using well-abused drills) to support structures.

I noticed Dean using wire to hold the base of his Stirling together prior to brazing...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8902.msg104451#msg104451

Perhaps he could chime in and tell us what type of wire he uses. In the past, I've used the soft iron wire that florists use because the solder won't adhere to it. Some of the wire used by bonsai artisans to form trees is aluminum. I've never tried it but that might be worth trying too. (I think they use iron wire too.)

Between wire and solder-won't-stick-to-it-aluminum, one can usually cobble together some method for holding the parts while you join them. Graphite (soft artist pencil) can be used to control where you don't want the solder to go.

I use solder pillions even with soft solder. It's just so much easier to control where the solder will go and the amount deposited.

Remember that everything must be free of oil. I use carburetor cleaner in an aerosol can (also great for removing Dykem) but acetone or paint thinner will probably work too.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes. Like single-point threading and tool grinding, it's one of those things that looks much harder than it really is.

Afterthought: Cone drills are the tool of choice for making neat holes in thin sheet metal such as boilers.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

fcheslop  said:
			
		

> When I drill for boiler bushes I drill in small steps to prevent me from rediscovering the lost art of hexagonal holes and finish with a reamer and then make the bush to fit the hole.



Thanks fcheslop. That's exactly why I'm not happy with the current boiler. Not sure about making the bush to fit the hole. That would mean making the parts that go onto the bushes afterwards so they fit?

Marv...cone drill! I'll look into it. Stepped? If tapered, how do you determine how far to go? What would the spindle speed be?

I'll try to have pics of each setup. The instructions have suggestions for setups, none that include wire but I think one setup would benefit by it. I have some solid picture handing wire.

Funny you mention Dean's wire...I thought the same thing when I read his post...

What kind of wire did you use Dean?

Thanks all.


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, Just a thought..FWIW... You could use an end mill to make the holes. Use the end mill you have that is closest to the right size and then make the bushing that size too. :shrug:

Kel


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Afterthought: Cone drills are the tool of choice for making neat holes in thin sheet metal such as boilers.



Yes, cone drills, Zee! Also sold as Unibit. I have a couple I use in brass sheet. Stew has also shown them to good use in his boiler build.




			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> I noticed Dean using wire to hold the base of his Stirling together prior to brazing...
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8902.msg104451#msg104451



That stuff is just small gage steel tie wire. Don't know the specifics, but it has a light gray coating. Just Ace Hardware stuff I bought for hanging pictures at a local art show. 

I used to use it single strand, but after reading Dennis' wire-up job for his "Rudy" tractor boiler, decided to use his method of twist braiding the wire. It helps the wire stay where you put it, and how you bend it. Much better than single strand.  Unless you flux it, you shouldn't have any problem with the solder sticking to it. Stainless wire will work too, as it usually needs a specific flux to solder it, though it is very stiff to work with.

Also, Dennis got some stuff called Solderite to use for his hearth. Don't know if it's a local hardware type of thing. The stuff Marv is talking about is a building material, but can't remember the name of it either! I know nothing! At least it may be something HD carries.

The hearth stuff won't matter so much for "soft" soldering, but it's nice to have a fireproof substance to set your work on.

Oh, Zee posted while I was. Cone drill-- has steps at certain diameters. Standard sizes along the "cone".

Dean


----------



## steamboatmodel

Just to add to the confusion, when I buy silver brazing wire at ether the jewelry supply or the welding shop they call it silver solder! As for using soft solder I have repaired toy boilers with Stay-Brite solder http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/alloys.asp?id=32
Which Harris says is stronger than brazed (I still braze when possible).
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## mklotz

Cone drills - stepped and smooth...

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/?category=&q=step+drill

Every shop needs some. They're slicker than deer guts on a glass door knob for making *round* holes in sheet metal - trust me on this one. (Great for making holes in electronic enclosures too.)

For the stepless ones, I just stick them into the appropriate hole in one of my drill gages

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=17046481&PMT4NO=86705049

and Magic Marker the part above the hole. Drill until the marked area meets the top of the hole.

Check at HD. I think they sell various types of wire - brass, stainless and, tada, aluminum.


----------



## Kermit

Let me throw this out there as well.

Whatever someone may think I said, I sure hope they remember what they heard may not be what it was interpreted to imply.

Written word has limitations of inflection and emotional content and its hard to tell sarcasm from stupidity without knowing the personality behind the written words.

Take offense at what you see written as you are your own master, but know I have no disrepsect for anyone here and intend only to add to my knowledge and the knowledge of others as well.

Now by all means, Zee get this thread back on track. I'll once again tread lightly within it, since, it takes pages of diatribe to defuse such delicate devilery I deny ever devising!  :big:

Really, I love all you guys!
Whatsomatterme?!! Whatsomatteryou?


----------



## Deanofid

Kermit, reading a certain one of my replies a couple of times, I can surly see how it would come off overly
defensive. Sorry for that, really. (..and, if you weren't thinking of me, chalk it up to my guilty conscience..) No offense meant.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Group hug everyone. Group hug.
What? Don't need it?
Darn.
I mean good. :big:

Kel...bushings are already made. Not that I couldn't remake them...but if the diameter changes then all the stuff that goes on top of them changes too! I think it'll be fine.

Dean...Unibit! Believe it or not...I have one. Says so on the side. I used it to make holes in enclosures (as Marv said) and mounting boards. I doubt it's any good for metal. Looks pretty abused. Wrong size anyway. I'll probably go for undersize drill and ream to size.

..................................

Think about the group hug. I'm told I give good hugs.
High and tight or low and snug.
Wait...'she' says that.
Forget it. I like you guys but...
I don't know what you look like.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not a good shopping day.
HD didn't have the small diameter silver solder.
They didn't have any firebrick either.
Got some polyurethane for a table but realized later I needed some stain.

Thought I'd have a win by getting the bamboo poles that wife wanted but she preferred the 'sticks' she found behind the fence.

Foo.

[EDIT: And I forgot to pick up some 1/4-28 bolts. Argh.]

[EDIT: And I looked at some Unibit cone bits. $34. $17 a hole. Nope. Not yet.]


----------



## Deanofid

Well shoot, Zee.
At least the bamboo things are good for beating yourself on the bean. Sounds like that kind of day..

Since you are going to use regular solder, the diameter is even less of an issue than for brazing (hard, silver solder, etc.) wire. As you know, it smashes very flat just using the smooth part of the jaws on pliers. Then snip it and put it where you want it.

Really, when using regular solder, I just get the joint hot enough to turn the flux a bit brown and wipe solder over the joint right off the wire. That stuff goes so easy.

PM Research sells a "soft" silver bearing solder in a kit with a really good flux for $10. It's 96/4 tin/silver, 430° f flow temp, 1/16" dia. Same thing Harris sells as Stay-Brite, and easy to use, (I've used it a lot). Works for copper, brass and steel, and any mix of those. 
If you order it tomorrow morning by phone and ask them to put it in a priority box, should have it Sat or Mon.
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=32
I'm almost certain I've see the same at HD under the Harris brand. Stay-Brite.

Hope things go your way tomorrow!

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

And...I tried to mill the bolt holding the vise to the mill table.
Criminy.
Going to bed.

Wait.

I foresee a toe stub.

Solution...martinis. Then neither I nor the toe will care. :big:


----------



## shred

Step Drill & boiler tube: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2049.0;attach=1556;image

The cheap HF bits do ok on copper pipe.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Zee, I got tired of looking for fire brick locally and decided to see if the rumors about HardiBacker board were true. This is sold at Home Depot for cheap. I picked up a piece with a small section broken and the guy sold it to me for 2 bucks. I cut some smallish pieces and made a small hearth. I blasted it directly for quite awhile with my MAPP torch. I then proceeded to braze a number of parts on it, no prob.

It looks like it but no, it's not sheetrock.







-Trout


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Shred. I'll check them out next time I visit HF.

Thanks Trout. After I left the store I realized I'd forgotten to ask about that.
Not a problem though. Since this trip involved a home improvement job, there'll be two more trips to make. ;D


----------



## mklotz

The cone/step drills from Harbor Freight are like $10 for three - see my link above - and they work just fine.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The cone/step drills from Harbor Freight are like $10 for three - see my link above - and they work just fine.



They're on my shopping list next time I visit HF. Thanks Marv.

Got the Hardibacker board today. Thanks Trout.

I don't think I need the citric acid (instructions just use a sponge) but I'll check for some.

Haven't made the usual 3rd trip to HD so I'm thinking I've forgotten something. Well it'll come to me...about two minutes before closing time.


----------



## Philjoe5

> [EDIT: And I forgot to pick up some 1/4-28 bolts. Argh.]





> Haven't made the usual 3rd trip to HD so I'm thinking I've forgotten something



The bolts Zee, the bolts

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Bolt back to HF......... 7 times........... (1/4 of 28). 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> The bolts Zee, the bolts





			
				Maryak  said:
			
		

> Bolt back to HF......... 7 times........... (1/4 of 28).



Rats Rats and Rats


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Got the 1/4-28 bolts!!

Hm.








Nuts


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Got the 1/4-28 bolts!!
> 
> Hm.
> 
> 
> Nuts



Washers?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Another of my feeble attempts to keep my thread alive...

Not a lot of progress lately. Got the Hardibacker board. I'm a little surprised. It cut like wallboard. A quick slice down the center, a dowel underneath, and snap. I'm hoping to cut pieces to size this weekend...but T may have other ideas.

In the meantime I made up one of the jigs for soldering...







(The boiler isn't completely prepped yet. I have to sand the edges down and remove the chrome.)

The instructions had a 'U' shaped piece. Instead, I cut some 1/2" square stock and put it together. The legs may be a bit long but I don't know yet. The idea is to strap the boiler down onto some scrap board...and then strap (wire) the jig over that. I'll try to remember to take pictures of the setup before I burn the house down successfully solder.

Oh...and no...things did not go as hoped even when making the jig. The 1/4-28 bolt? The only one I needed is the bolt in the middle for holding the bushings. The others are 10-24 for holding the legs. Naturally, I drilled all 3 holes for a 10-24 and had to go back to redo the middle hole.

But they look good.
You can't see them...cause of the bolts.
But they look good.
Incredibly good.
 ;D

The only other jig I'll need is something to solder the pipe to the ports.

Speaking of which...I still need to test whether I got the holes in the ports (or cylinders) right. While eyeballing it seems to indicate everything is in the right place, I tried blowing into the cylinder and rotating the ports and listening or feeling for air. Not sure I got it right. Having smoked for 30+ years didn't help. (2 days ago was my 2nd anniversary of quitting.) Neither does the tinnitus. Maybe I should turn down Spongebob.

I'll figure something out to test it. No point soldering the thing up if the holes don't line up.

Practice on scrap? Nah. I've done similar soldering...I say let's go for it.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, if you want me to give your thread a bump without looking conspicuous, send more money,
just like last time. No one will know. 

Glad you found time to get into the shop!

Dean


----------



## b.lindsey

Hmmmmm....how much you charging now Dean? :big: I need to get my a$$ back in gear before I fall off the cliff completely.

Zee, maybe you can get HF to start making a daily run to your house. ;D The little fixture looks good though and I feel sure the soldelring job will be successful too.

Bill


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and Bill.
Dean...didn't you look under the porch mat?
....
and so it begins...sort of...maybe...well something did...

I broke up the Hardibacker board into some manageable pieces and cobbled together a small hearth held together by brick. Some day I'll figure out how to get a proper one made with some sheetmetal backing. But this should work for the the little jobs this loco needs.






As my 'practice' piece I decided to solder the boiler mount stud to the rear boiler sheet. (Don't get too excited about the terms...I looked them up from the drawings.)






I took some HD silver solder...(bigger than 1/16...measures .08)...hammered a bit flat, sliced it in half, and wrapped it around the stud along with some flux.

Then used the MAPP burner.

Then the surprises began. I grabbed the flame lighter thingy - the thingy you squeezy to make sparky. I didn't realize the torch had a built-in piezo. So I had flame-age before I was ready. I hopped a little but my feet stayed on the ground.

Then I was looking for the flame adjusty thingy. I don't see one. But the flame looked good as is, and I was 'ready' to go anyway.

So I grabbed a bit of hanger wire so I could push the stud down as the solder melted and applied the flame.

Well that was quick. Job was done nearly quick as a blink.






The solder moved out quite a bit. Is it possible the flame pushed it?











I haven't gotten the citric acid yet. I'll be interested to see how this cleans up. Part of the reason I chose it is that the only part you'll see is the outer edge.

Clearly though I need smaller diameter wire. This stuff will be way to big.
The torch was way hotter than I expected. I've used propane before and don't remember that. But then...I've never soldered something this small using a torch. I probably need to approach it a little slower too.

I also prepped the boiler. I put the boiler sheets on, placed masking tape on the boiler, removed the sheets and put the boiler back on the dowel in the lathe. Then sanded down the edges.






That one bushing a hole is right up against the one boiler sheet. Should be okay though. (I'm hoping.)

Very slow going this time of year with everyone home. But progress is progress.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.


----------



## tmuir

Sounds like you bought the cheaper of the two MAPP gas burners.
I did the same but exchanged mine.
There is another model up that costs just a few dollars more that lets you control the flame.
Its well worth the extra $20 or so as you can turn down the torch and o soft soldering with it too then.

A little trick to stop the solder going where you don't want to is to draw a line with lead pencil. The solder won't cross that line


----------



## steamboatmodel

"The torch was way hotter than I expected."
Did it bring the parts up to a nice cherry red?
Where did you have the flame aimed?
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tmuir. I'll look for that (the burner). I knew about the lead pencil trick but didn't think it was needed for this since this is the inside of the boiler. Now I wish I'd done it just to see the result.

Thanks Gerald. I don't recollect perfectly...but I do remember it changing colors. Even got some hot spots of bright red. It's just surprising because it took no time at all. I brought the flame in from the outside up to the stud. Kind of quickly. The solder was already in place and ready...it wasn't a matter of heating up and touching solder to it.

I'm kind of happy with the result...it's my first time not counting plumbing...so I have to be. ;D

Just found out from daughter that citric acid is also used to set dye in yarn. She enjoys spinning.

I'm 'this' close to convincing T that we should put off that home improvement project till next year. Wish me luck. It needs to be done...but it conflicts with shop time.


----------



## Deanofid

Good luck, Zee. Good luck!!
I'm sure T will believe you when you tell her that next year will be much better for home
improvement projects. I sure hope so, for you!

Out of curiosity, which wire did you use for this? 45%, 56%, etc?
Can we see a pic of your torch sometime? I might want one..

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

Here's a pic of the torch. I think I got it at Lowe's. Included is the solder. I picked that up at Home Depot. I looked for the silver content but it wasn't clear. I think it's on the order of 4%...if that makes sense. It's plumber's silver solder.

For this project I don't think the harder stuff is necessary...but I didn't want something as soft as electronic solder either. The instructions weren't clear other than they mentioned 1/32 wire.

Having said that...I'm going to order 1/32 or smaller (if there's such a thing) and get whatever I can find that's at least as hard as the plumber's stuff.


----------



## BMyers

Looking good ! ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Hey, the fuel cylinder has my name on it.. 

See, I'd forgotten which way you were going with the solder. Regular solder melts very fast, and you could hold the torch quit a way from the piece, especially with MAPP. 
That's a good torch, and will do hard silver on things that aren't too big, when you need to. 

Dean


----------



## doubletop

Carl

I still suggest you practice on some scrap before you turn all your good work into scrap. You'll learn what works an what doesn't and have less of a "what the....?" moments on the parts that matter. When it goes right its quite a nice feeling when it goes wrong you'll hate yourself.

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks BMyers.
Thanks Dean.
Thanks Pete. You're quite right.

Ordered some .025 silver solder. That should be small enough. If not, I also got some .031...mainly for comparison sake.

A bright note...you may recall I worried about the port holes matching up...

Tonight I put the cylinder/port assembly under a faucet so that the water would hit the port block's exhaust and inlet holes. I was pleased to see water coming up out of the cylinder when I twisted the block either way to align the holes and the water would stop otherwise.

So I'm good.
I mean the part is good.
I mean it looks good so far.
 ;D

The only downside was that T was trying to make dinner at the same time and I delayed her. It's the weekly roast chicken...a favorite. Now I have to wait.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hm. Would I be jinxing things if I went ahead and started breaking down my mini-lathe for a good clean before the project is done?


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hm. Would I be jinxing things if I went ahead and started breaking down my mini-lathe for a good clean before the project is done?



Not that I'm superstitious .................AAAGH don't clean nothing till you've finished.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Deanofid

You've got it, Zee. You're good, like you say.

Leave the lathe setup for a few days. If you tear it down, the dumbest thing is sure to happen.
I don't mean you will make a mistake. I mean, you will drop a small part into the nethers during
assembly, and need to make again. 
If you leave the lathe ready to work, there will be no mistakes... It's a proven fact, mostly.

Dean


----------



## b.lindsey

I have to agree zee...leave the lathe alone for now...it kinda like carrying an umbrella on a cloudy day...its a sure bet it will keep the rain away!

Where did you order the solder from if I may ask?

Bill


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Not that I'm superstitious ..



Well I am. I believe in 3rd time's charm...but have to admit it hasn't held up in this hobby..4th try...5th try...6th try....



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> If you leave the lathe ready to work, there will be no mistakes... It's a proven fact, mostly.



Ah. As Bugs would say...You don't know me very well. Do you?



			
				b.lindsey  said:
			
		

> I have to agree zee...leave the lathe alone for now...it kinda like carrying an umbrella on a cloudy day...its a sure bet it will keep the rain away!
> 
> Where did you order the solder from if I may ask?



Good point Bill. T watered the garden today. So we got rain. It's why I never wash my car.

I ordered the material from SRA. Dean put me onto them. I'll try to report on their service...but I'm sure it'll be fine. I also ordered the 601 flux from them.

This way it'll be all Dean's fault. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Went by 'The Great Pumpkin' today...a local health food store.
Found Citric Acid in 4 oz size. $5.

I don't recall anyone saying so...but apparently it's also used to 'help sprouting'.

I don't need anything more to sprout. :big:

I need something that 'rejuvenates'.
Even better...something that 'improves on the original design'.

IF...you know what I mean.


----------



## mklotz

$1.25/oz! At that price you should be putting it behind your ears.  

43 cents an oz here...

http://www.americanspice.com/catalo...acid&_ssess_=d0bd318390fa4f8d1a783f4b3562b47a

I know you needed it NOW, but for future reference... They have alum, too.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> $1.25/oz! At that price you should be putting it behind your ears.
> 43 cents an oz here...
> but for future reference... They have alum, too.



And probably $1 an oz for shipping. :big:
Thanks Marv.
You did make me think I should have checked T's source for spices...Penzeys...but it turns out they don't carry any.
Alum is readily available at the grocery store. I bought some early last year but have yet to use it. That's not to say I didn't need to use it.


----------



## Deanofid

Wait, wait. I have an issue with this poo-poo.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Well I am. I believe in 3rd time's charm...but have to admit it hasn't held up in this hobby..4th try...5th try...6th try....



You're such an exaggerator when you're not telling the truth! You make lots of parts in one go. I know. I saw some. You're getting kinda good at this. You can't fool us, sometimes.




> This way it'll be all Dean's fault. ;D



Alright. This part might be true enough.




> Found Citric Acid in 4 oz size. $5.
> I don't recall anyone saying so...but apparently it's also used to 'help sprouting'.



With all the mulch you've been spreading this season, (and getting on a more earthy topic) I think you need anti-sprouting stuff. Round Up works wonders..



> IF...you know what I mean.



Huh?

Dean


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, Just done a descale on my espresso machine and happend to notice that the descaller is Citric Acid and is made by an American company might be worth a try they are at www.everpure.com and they do 1.75oz,7oz and 2.2lb packs you may have to buy a box but some of you guys may be able to club together and split it.I use this as a pickle for my small boilers and it works well.Good luck with the rest of the build I have really enjoyed reading about your escapades.Oh nearly forgot its called ScaleKleen in the U.K and the part number is EV9796-50
regards and best wishes Frazer


----------



## Philjoe5

Looking good Zee. I shall use your photos, explanations, trials and tribulations as my personal tutorial to try silver soldering. My first and only attempt some time ago was a dismal failure. I've since picked up much more information about it so when the need arises I'll jump into it. Keep on keepin' on, ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## kustomkb

Your loco is looking good Zee!

Lots to learn from this thread,

Thanks all.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you Dean, Frazer, Phil, and Kevin. Very much appreciated.

It's been 24 hours in the sprout food citric acid...improved...but I'm not sure it'll get better.

I'm sure the solder will remain...but I'm surprised by the discoloration on the other side.

I have a couple of questions...

Should a soft brush be used? Like a toothbrush?

I mixed 4 oz to 1.5 quarts of water. Any reason not to make it stronger? My fingers mind this less than when I peel an orange.

I'll give it a couple of more days (well...most likely until this weekend when I have more time) and take a picture so you all can compare.

I'm glad I didn't break down the lathe for cleaning...I forgot I have a jig to make to hold the burners in place for soldering.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Should a soft brush be used? Like a toothbrush?



Yes Zee, but not your own.



> I mixed 4 oz to 1.5 quarts of water. Any reason not to make it stronger?



That's about the ratio I use. I don't measure very carefully. I think I mentioned 8 oz for two to three quarts of water. You can make it stronger, or you can warm up the solution. It will work faster if it's nice and warm.

You used regular soft solder, and if you used regular flux (not white paste like for silver soldering) it may not come off as well in citric acid, though the brass should still get clean. For regular soft solder, I just use soap and hot water to get the flux off, then put it in the pickle to clean the brass.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. I'll leave it set for a few days. Maybe strengthen it later.

I managed to make the jig for soldering the burners...







The instructions just had you set a piece of stock on top of the burners for soldering. If I had more experience I might have gone the same way. Instead, I turned down some 'pins' to fit inside the burners to hold them.

I'm not worried about the heat being sucked away by the pins. The parts are small and I'm sure the burners and feed pipe will heat up well enough.






The burners are straighter than they appear in the picture. I'm quite pleased.

When I get ready (I have some practicing to do first), I'll wire the setup onto a scrap of Hardibacker board before I solder it.


----------



## Deanofid

You make a nice jig, Zee. It looks like it really holds things lined up very well.
Good work, and good thinking on the way you made it.

Do these get soft, or hard?

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

I think this calls for very small diameter solder. All I'll have is hard (Bag-7, 56%).


----------



## b.lindsey

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm glad I didn't break down the lathe for cleaning...I forgot I have a jig to make to hold the burners in place for soldering.



See there, we told you so :big:

Nice job on the fixture too!!

Bill


----------



## arnoldb

A very nice Jig Carl Thm:

And like you said, you need just enough solder to close the gaps. On the end one, too much might cause the solder to run in and fill the hole in the feed pipe. Are you going to cross-drill the feed pipe for the middle hole before or after soldering?

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill.
Thanks Arnold.



			
				arnoldb  said:
			
		

> Are you going to cross-drill the feed pipe for the middle hole before or after soldering?



I'm not sure I understand the question but let me try explaining what I'm (supposed to) going to do...

Once soldered I'll take that modified drill bit (as an end-mill) and drill/mill into the middle burner enough to take the top off the feed pipe.

Wish me luck.

Hm. Actually...I won't use that modified drill bit...I'll use a regular bit...it just needs to cut a hole.


----------



## Deanofid

You know what, Zee? Probably don't use a regular bit unless it almost fills up the tube that will hold
the wick. Otherwise, it's going to hunt all over the place on the little radius that is the outside of the
long feed tube. Very well might cause an ugly problem.

If you have a transfer punch the same size as the ID of the wick tube, drop it down in there and tap
it a couple times to give the bit a fighting chance. If you don't have one, it's a five minute job on any
kind of steel rod.  You don't need to do any hardening on it for this one thing, 'less you want to. 

Just a suggestion, you know.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Oh thanks Dean!
I hadn't thought about that.
(I'd like to think I might've when it came time...but I suspect I wouldn't.)

Now you have me thinking...

I think a center drill can reach. Certainly enough to put a divot in it.
Wouldn't that be better?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Got the Bag-7 56% silver solder today.

This is about $75 worth of stuff...






.025 in the back....031 in the front.

Don't mind mini-zeepster's frown. He's feeling a bit low for me due to today's earlier adventure. ;D

Maybe this weekend I can do some more soldering (practicing).


----------



## bearcar1

And here I just thought Lil' Zeep just had a glass of milk with his cookies. Man, I am glad that you are OK Z', this afternoons adventure could have been "The BIG One". ;D

Tell T, that she will just have to try harder next time. :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## ksouers

Zee,
A couple years ago I came across a silver solder ribbon at McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#solder/=7kbvpv
Part number 7617A14, $32 per ounce. The ribbon is 1/2 inch wide and about 6 feet long. At .005 thick it is easily cut with scissors and formed around any shape I need or cut into little squares. I've used maybe 2 inches in the past 2 years, so I fully expect the coil to outlive me!

Since finding the ribbon I've pretty much given up on using wire except on "big" jobs.


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> This is about $75 worth of stuff...





			
				ksouers  said:
			
		

> A couple years ago I came across a silver solder ribbon at McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#solder/=7kbvpv
> Part number 7617A14, $32 per ounce.



Sorry to state the obvious but it is *silver *solder with 56% silver and the silver price right now is $18.5/oz. I nearly fell off my chair when I was quoted $1000 for a kilo, I ended up buying $100 worth. We established at the time firebird was paying just about the same price in the UK.

Just don't tell her indoors what it is and what you paid. 

Pete


----------



## tmuir

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Got the Bag-7 56% silver solder today.
> 
> This is about $75 worth of stuff...



If you think thats bad go to a jewellers supply shop and ask for 1/2 gram each of 18K yellow gold hard, medium and soft solder, then you will really fall off your chair at what that costs and when you drop that 1mm square you just cut off it you do get down on your hands and knees and look for it. :big:


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, I think you understood my question correctly, and Dean beat me to answering the concern about opening the hole after soldering.
Its not a big issue though; you could even use a small center-cutting end mill to open the hole after soldering instead of the modified drill or center drill.

Man, am I jealous of your silver solder wire... The thinnest I can get locally is 1.6mm (1/16"); I guess I'll have to start trusting some serous money to the Internet...

Regards, Arnold


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, a center drill should do great. Didn't know if you had one long enough. 
Looks like you got all the right stuff in you silver order. That .025" will be great for making
small rings.  SRA has flat .005" strip in that same alloy, too, for $29 per oz.

Pete, the price of silver wire still isn't all that much when you figure an oz of .031 is about 
20 feet long. It goes a long way.

Dean


----------



## doubletop

Dean

It does go a long way, I think I'm about $9 into my $100 investment, and it doesn't take much to fill a 2thou gap. Probably most of us beginners waste more solder in other places than the joint we are soldering. I was just empathising with the shock we've all had the first time we've bought the stuff.

Pete


----------



## b.lindsey

Ooooooh....silver solder envy here. It looks like they did a quality job of packing and labeling too Zee. I have the site bookmarked in case in need to order some which I probably will here shortly. Good luck with your practice 

Bill


----------



## Kermit

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Got the Bag-7 56% silver solder today.



I know at least one person here has suggested using a pencil to color where you don't want the solder to go. I would second that suggestion. Perhaps even go so far as to mix a thin paste of charcoal powder and apply with a water color size brush. Use a solvent that evaporates completely(like naptha or acetone or alcohol)

(Hint: burnt wooden matches make a quick source of wood charcoal. And a spoon applied to the bottom of ceramic or glass bowl makes a quick mortar and pestle device.) 

Kermit


----------



## Deanofid

Burnt matches. Good tip, Kermit! Thanks.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I wasn't complaining about the cost of the silver solder...I expected as much after having done a little research...

My intent was to show you (or rather, others) what you get from SRA and what the cost is. $29 to $32 an oz seems pretty normal.

To some extent...it's not the cost I was demonstrating but what you can get. You can't just go to the local corner store (HD or Lowes) and get this stuff...you pretty much have to order it. In this diameter. At least in my area.

I was surprised by Dean's post. .005" strip. That's small and I'm thinking the smaller the better in this hobby.

I'd be interested in seeing the difference in cost due to packaging...SRA sent their stuff in a simple baggie. Why would I spend more for a blister pack? But then..am I? A lot of cost is due to volume/demand.

I am so looking forward to experimenting. I'm especially interested in using pencil lead to try and control the solder.

The one boiler end sheet isn't cleaning up as much as I'd like. It's okay because you can't see it...but still...I wish it were more controlled.

Ah well...experience will come.

I'm not as concerned about how well the loco looks as much as it runs. Looks will come with experience.

Just take a gander at my pic of me in Trout's thread. I look better than I run. :big:

But there may be those who wish for the opposite.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A little practicing today...

I wired up a bit of brass sheet to another. Fluxed it...then heated it up. I had the solder wire in my hand. I went at it too early. Hot enough to melt a bit of wire off but not hot enough yet to wick. So the solder bit fell on the part and laid there a while. Happened twice.

Then it got hot enough and like magic the solder wicked into the corner.

You can see the two small areas where the solder first pooled.

On the left is the boiler end sheet I did last weekend after pickling. The stud looks kind of funky but it's the lighting.







Here's the back sides.






You can tell the one end got more heat than the other...but the solder is all along the joint.

I was somewhat surprised how bright the brass got from the flux melting/burning off. I have no idea how well that will clean up.

I'm thinking the parts on the loco are going to get pretty discolored. I'm less concerned about how it ends up looking...I really hope it runs. Still...it'd be nice to keep it as good looking as I can. (That way if it doesn't run...it's good to look at. ;D -- yeah yeah...I hear you...it'll run.)

Next run I'll try forming the solder wire instead of poking with it.

By the way...the flux seems a bit more liquidy than the stuff you used Dean. Not that it should matter once it gets hot. I imagine I can the stuff I got from Harris as well.

Is it worth hitting the boiler sheet with some brasso to see what cleans up?


----------



## mklotz

Just to show yourself the difference, you should now try the following...

Clamp two pieces of sheet brass together as for your practice piece. Put in a wire frame so the joint is facing up like a V-block (each piece of brass at 45 deg to horizontal). Flux the joint and lay some small pieces of solder in the joint. Use less solder than you think you need - most novices use too much solder. Now, heat both pieces from below waving the torch back and forth along the length of the joint constantly. Watch for the flux to turn transparent and soon after, watch the solder melt and flow like water.

I'm betting you'll get a damn near perfect joint with a minimum of sloppage.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, the flux changes consistency over time. It has water in it, and as you open and close the container a number of times it goes from being fairly watery to quite thick. That will take a few months. When it starts to get too thick to spread easily, put a little distilled water in it and mix it up.

What Marv says about using less solder is true. After you've done it a number of times, you'll get it pretty well figured out.
The test piece looks to be about 4" long. Using .031 wire, if you put a 1/4" piece at each end, and 3 to 4 more pieces spaced evenly between them it should probably be plenty.

In the first pic, it looks like you got a nice fillet along the complete length of the piece. On the back side, it's a little dark in the left corner. Can't quite see if it's in there, but it looks pretty darn good, overall.

Which wire did you use for your new test piece?

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I used the 1/32 wire.
Yeah...left corner looks dark but the solder is there.
It's a very tough joint. Played with it and it doesn't budge.

Next practice is the .025 wire wrapped around a tube. Most of my soldering for this engine will be that way...only the fuel tank has some straight edges.

Maybe two more practices and then I think I'll go for it. One on the cut off drain pipe and see what happens to the chrome.

I suspect I won't be able to prevent a lot of discoloration...if that happens I'll just swap the pic for the one that starts this thread. :big:


----------



## GailInNM

Looking good Zee.

By now you have noticed that the silver solder wire is quite stiff and springy. It is work hardened from being drawn to the diameter you buy. If you are going to make small diameter preforms for some of the tubes you can anneal it so it can be formed around a mandrel. You have to be careful so you don't melt it. I do a foot or so at a time by hanging it over an edge horizontally and playing a propane torch over it from one end to another. You can watch it go limp when it anneals.  It does not get as soft as annealed copper, but it does get soft enough to be able to wind on a mandrel and then snip out little preforms.

After annealing I wipe it with a bit of Scotchbrite to remove any oxidation but it probably is not necessary as the flux will take it off when you make your joint.

If you accidentally melt a little bit, it will ball up on the end of the wire and you can use these little balls as preforms also for other joints.

Gail in NM


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Gail. That's really good info. I did notice the springiness on my last two runs and was wondering how I might be able to do it better. Your post was very timely. Now I need to try it.

Here's a pic of the last two tries...






On the left is a bit of round brass on top of sheet. I'd made a ring of solder using the .025. Probably still too much. But a pretty nice fillet.

On the right is the drain pipe on top of sheet. You can see a gap...it was on the backside and I didn't get to it very well. I'll have to watch out for that when I set up for the real thing. On the other hand...this was just sitting on top...no overlap.

Well I'm thinking there's no way the drain pipe and brass bits will look like the pic at the start of the thread. I have no idea how they did that...although I have a suspicion that they didn't use silver solder.

If you hear a dim wail from Southeast PA....


----------



## bearcar1

I dunno Z', when I was riding motorcycles the exhaust pipes were chromed. The heat from the engine would discolor them just like what you are experiencing on your test part. I used a paste polish by the name of SimiChrome and it seemed to reduce the discoloration down quite a bit. Although one had to spend some time with a terry cloth towel buffing it out. Try doing something like that on your test piece and see what happens to it, don't use any abrasives. The sheetmetal workers use purple scotch brite pads to buff up stainless steel after it has been welded.


BC1
Jim

*** Modified *** in order to correct spelling of product (thanks Marv)


----------



## mklotz

Are you sure you're not talking about Simichrome (note spelling) polish?

http://www.competitionchemicals.com/

I've used the stuff and I believe it is mildly abrasive (although I fail to see how any polishing agent can not be a bit abrasive).


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I can certainly do some experimenting.
As you would expect, I don't have any Simichrome on hand.
This is what I have...

Mother's Aluminum
Brasso
Various polishing sticks (that waxy stuff for buffing)
Toothpaste

I can try things as I work the loco.

Thanks Jim and Marv.


----------



## Deanofid

I meant which silver content wire, Zee, but I think I have it figured out looking back at what you 
bought from SRA.

It's looking very much like you've about got this sorted out. If you have a few spots where the 
wire doesn't flow you can put it in the pickle for a while to clean it, rinse it off, re-flux and do it
again. It won't hurt the joint you've already done.

You can mix two different wires, too. If you have to do a heat in two or three stages, you can
use 45% for the first heat to get things stuck together, then use 56% for subsequent heats and 
know that your piece won't fall apart. The 45% melts at higher temps.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ah sorry Dean. I thought you knew it was the 56% and was wondering about what size I was using.

I'm hoping tomorrow will be a good day to start doing the 'real' thing.


----------



## Deanofid

No need for "sorry", Zee! Gee whiz, all I had to do was look at the earlier post where you got your
Hunt Bros. stash. 
'Course, if I ask dumb questions, it keeps your thread on top, where I want it.
 8)

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Quick update...pics will come after I successfully or unsuccessfully overcome what could be a serious disaster...

How's that for a teaser?

Soldered on one end cap. As expected, lots of discoloration but otherwise I have to say I'm pleased. I'd preformed the solder.

Soldered on the other end cap. Same result.

Then went onto the two burners..The jig worked wonders. Originally I was going to set it up so that the block was on top and I would wire it down. It was much easier just to use the jig as a stand and set it upside down.

Not too happy about the result. This time I just poked at it with the wire...I should have preformed the solder. Kind of crummy. And there appears to be a hole on one side but I can't tell if that's a problem. I think it's going to be okay because the tubing goes through.

Disaster still to come...

Went back to the boiler and set it up with the jig to hold the bushing. Preformed the solder. Soldered and stuck the thing in the citric acid.

I was very pleased with the result. And then I noticed the stud on the one end cap.

Disaster.

It had come loose. Luckily I was able to prevent it from falling into the boiler and I managed to get a nut on it. The question is...how to fix it?

I'm thinking I could tap a hole in a length of 1/4" square aluminum...screw the stud into it (holding onto it so it don't fall into the boiler), set the bar on some brick, and hang the boiler from the bar. Then resolder.

If you think more solder is needed from the inside...then I could try to get the stud out the remaining bushing hole...wrap solder around it, tie thread around it and fish it back to the hole...then do the above.

Rats.
Let us hope this does not turn into 'foo'.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A couple of pics...

You can see the nut holding onto the stud. The nut is just big enough. I'm thinking I should repair that before I solder in the last bushing. Otherwise...

The chimney is just there so I can see what it looks like (and remember what nice brass the rest of it used to be) ;D When I do the other bushing though I have the chimney on there so I can eyeball it vertical.

The fuel tank went well except the inlet fell further into the hole. I had a clamp on it so I'm not sure what happened. For that matter...I don't why they didn't design a shoulder on it so it you wouldn't have to clamp it from above.

It doesn't fit the loco. I can either trim the tab on the loco so the fuel tanks sits on the lip...or try and heat and lift the nozzle up. I'm inclined to trip the tab. It's not much of a holder anyway.

Oh...and the tube coming out is just a little bit crooked. I just bent it. You can't see it.







Here's the back side.






No foo yet. No dim wail yet. But I'm not done yet.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee,just an idea could you fit a blind bush instead of the stud ?.looking good best of luck with the rest of the build.
regards Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer. Unfortunately I don't know what a blind bush is.

In any case...I went to repair the stud. Luckily I thought about it a little bit more. Hanging the boiler off the bar could likely result in the end cap coming off.

So instead I took a smaller length of 1/4", drilled and tapped the hole and then shimmed the two ends against the end cap.

A better method would have been to drill/tap 3 holes and use the two outer ones to 'draw' the stud out. But I didn't think of that until later.

Either way...I couldn't see the back side very well...I'm waiting for it too cool off and then we'll see. Boy oh boy...I'm hoping this works.

Trying avert the 'foo'...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

foo





Didn't catch at all. Stud fell in boiler. Stud is bigger than the bushing.
Screwed.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

But wait!

A little pin, some fiddling, some luck...and the stud is sticking out again.
Sort of like those stupid little games where you try and roll a bunch of little balls into their respective holes.

Now the question is...how can I make sure the thing is clean enough for another try?

Looks like it didn't get hot enough. Poor lighting made me think one side was done...but the solder hadn't even melted around the rest.

Probably too late today to continue...kids are over...they want food.
Well...so do I. Hamburgers and hot dogs.

Let me take back the 'foo' for now....'oof'


----------



## Deanofid

Hi Zee;

Just spit balling here. Get a piece of wire. It needs to be stiff. Bend it something like this:






Make the round part so it bumps against the flue fitting before it goes too far into the boiler.



Squeeze it together and snake it into the flue hole:







You may have to use some clips or a clamp to keep it positioned, but then you should be able to 
set the boiler on end and re-solder the stud. You could make up a simple aluminum disc with a
hole tapped the size of the stud. Then you can leave it on the last few threads while you solder
the stud in case you need something to grab (with pliers) while you're working. 

Put a ring of wire around the outside opening of the stud and just keep your heat in that area. Then
you won't have to worry about the whole end coming loose.

You'll get it! Enjoy your BBQ.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Nice idea Dean. Thanks. I worry a little bit about the wire moving ever so much and the stud falling down again.

I was working on the 'better idea' of a clamp...and learned a lesson after getting burned pretty badly...

Today's lesson...

I was drilling the holes for a new clamp to try and fix the boiler stud issue. 3/8" square stock. Apparently I hadn't tightened the drill bit well enough and saw that the chuck was spinning but the bit wasn't.

Turned everything off...grabbed the drill bit. I hadn't thought it was spinning that much. It didn't occur to me that it would have gotten hot.

I have a pretty good burn between my thumb and forefinger. Hurts like the dickens even now. I'll be peeling that skin off in a few days.

Man it hurts.
Boy was that stupid.
Gee I'm glad it was a cheap lesson.

[EDIT] T got me some aloe vera...wonderful stuff. Gosh I like her. What a friend.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, sorry for the delay in replying for some reason my PC has decided to show print very very small and I'm visually impaired at the moment(some say mentally) so can hardly read.I think the problem SWMBO has slunk of to bed ha.I just thought if you can remove the stud(bolt) and make a bush a bit like the outlet bush but not drilled right through and tapped the same thread as the stud bit like a top hat it could be soldered from the outside . Hope this makes sense


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer.

I can't get the stud out anyway. I'm assuming your method requires that?

Ow. Time for more aloe vera.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Nice idea Dean. Thanks. I worry a little bit about the wire moving ever so much and the stud falling down again.



That's why I mentioned the aluminum disc tapped for the stud. Make the disc larger than the hole and it can't
fall in. Put it on the last few threads of the stud so it isn't resting against the boiler cap, and you have room
to solder.

Sorry about the burnt fingers. Why do these things have to happen to something you use so often?
If it were on your elbow, it would hardly bother you! 
I guess the gist of the story is, use your elbows to change drill bits...

Dean


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, thought it may have come out through the other hole sorry.Keep that burn cool try wrapping them round a long cold drink :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. Hm...I wonder if the women like elbows with such flexibility. I'd ask T but I know the answer..."You're such an idiot."

Frazer...you got that right. Aloe vera for external application...3rd martini working the internal. It's down to a low hum right now. But the "I don't care anymore" is quickly catching up. :big:

Darn it....my biggest disappointment is not getting as much done on the loco as I'd hoped. And it'd be foolish to think I wouldn't have some set backs.

It'd be nice to have this running by the time T's parents and mine arrive next month.

On the other hand...they don't have a lot of appreciation for this. You all know what I mean. "Uh huh..nice...what else can you do?"...

I'd better stop now...that 3rd martini is hitting pretty good. u no wht i meen?


----------



## fcheslop

Ah well a least the anesthetic working it will look better in the morning .Finally sorted out PC funny how they say computers are friendly Iv never found that.All the best


----------



## bearcar1

Hiya Zeep, 

*ahem* I hate to bring this up and I do hope that I am wrong, but doesn't the boiler plate with the stud go towards the rear  (you know what I mean). If so, then would that not put the flue in the other location? :hDe: Please tell me those plates aren't bass-ackwards. 

 **edit** upon further review, please disregard that last transmission

Hmmm, flexible elbows. Now that might be a unique quality and of some use, I can see the headlines now, "American Idol winner plays piano recital with elbows while sipping martinis :big: :big:


BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

> On the other hand...they don't have a lot of appreciation for this.



I usually get something like, "What does it do?".
I feel like, "What do you mean, what does it do? Can't you see it running?".
But, then the _little man in my head says_ "Forget it. They're not mechanical geniuses, after all".

'Bout then they say, "Did you say something?"

Huh?


----------



## Troutsqueezer

I get that nearly every time I show my engines to someone. "Now you just need to get it to do something!" Apparently, if it ain't "doing" something, its just taking up space......Arghhh.....

-T


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Frazer...I'd like to find the fellow who said computers are friendly...I'd like to introduce him to mine. :big:

Jim...you're absolutely right. The chimney goes on the other end. As for the elbows...I'm not a big believer in multi-purpose tools...but there are exceptions. :big:

Dean and Trout...exactly that...it's difficult to find the balance between those who know nothing at all to appreciate what you're doing and those that know so much not do appreciate what you're doing.

...geesh...this took about 15 minutes to type...but I'm celebrating with the kids...

always a nice reminder...family first...

Now let's see if I can stick a song in their head...

The worms crawl in...?
A hundred bottles of beer on the wall...?
Chicken train..running all day...?
Somewhere over the rainbow...?

Oh they're going to kill me regardless...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Aw rats.
I'm going to bed.


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Could you turn the bolt thing into a stay bolt soldered to both end caps and still have your threaded end poking out. ???

Boilers of any size are a PITA in that to repair a bad bit, you usually have to remove 3 times the amount of good bits, just to get at it. 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Groomengineering

Hey Zee, looking good! I'm sure you'll get that pesky stud problem straightened out in no time.  Anyway, as to polishing the chrome you might check into this http://www.blue-job.net/ , I've never used it but remembered seeing it advertised back when I rode.

Jeff


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob. Very interesting idea. I'm going to have another go with the jig I made to hold the stud...and if that doesn't work then I'm going to try it.
Very slick and would look just fine too. Thanks!

I'm tempted to go for that anyway. Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem? Hm..if I go this way I can just make the hole on the other end big enough to get the stud out and make the 'cap' of the stay big enough to cover it. Cool. Hm...put a shoulder on the cap and the round nut so it centers in the holes of end sheets. Oh yeah...I'm liking this.

Jeff. Thanks. I may try that if the rest of the parts actually clean up well enough to put the chrome to shame.

Now watch...the one bushing is going to fall out. If that happens...


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem?



Provided you use the correct material of the correct diameter for your working pressure - No problem.

i.e. your stay should be copper or cupro nickel, (400 monel, R405 monel), and around 3/16" dia. Bigger is not a problem.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Do you think leaving the stud inside the boiler would be a problem?



If you mean, if the stud thing falls inside the boiler, can you leave it there and just seal it inside, shouldn't hurt a thing. It will be a 'stud mummy', forever sealed in it's tomb.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob and Dean.

Bob...copper stay? That'd be a problem as I have none large enough. Brass wouldn't do?

Dean...'stud mummy'...nice one. :big:

Just about to have the last go at fixing the stud...we have 3 possible outcomes...listen for...

1) Hooray! It worked!
2) Rats! On to Bob's idea.
3) A dim wail...the bushing fell out.

I'm surprised I started the list on a positive note.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

"Hoo"...uh...what?...yeah...I think so...yeah..."ray".

Well...it seems to have worked. A bit of a scare though.
I was heating it up...heating, heating, heating...waiting for the solder to melt and wick.
Worried that the bushing would let go.
Working it front and back...waiting for the wicking or the bush to let go.

Just as it wicked...the aluminum bar holding everything together...melted and fell over!!!

Turned off the heat...got the needle nose pliers and managed to knock most of the aluminum off.

Dunked it in the pickle...sizzle pop.

Looking okay. But there's a blob of aluminum sitting on the stud.
But I'm thinking...I bet it'll come off easy...two dissimilar metals like that...it ain't melted to it.

Aha!







It may not look like much...but I'm a happy guy.
Now I just have the other bushing to do...that one should go well...he said.

I'm almost (almost) disappointed. I thought Bob's idea was great.
I'd still like to know if it has to be copper or if it could have been brass.

Thanks guys!!!


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Sorry but brass is a no no. It will de-zinc and crumble.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Bob,

I've read that on the forum. But I'm not sure how it applies here.

The end sheets, bushing, and stud are all brass. Even the boiler is brass covered in chrome. In fact, the only copper in this model is the tube coming from the steam dome to the porting blocks. (And I'm thinking that's only because I have to bend it.)

I remember the earlier discussion about brass and de-zincing. It wasn't clear to me whether it was a problem over time...or if the brass was overheated.

If brass being overheated is a problem...then I may have indeed done that.

Perhaps that's why there's been a question about using silver solder or plumber's solder for this toy.

Thanks Bob. I'll be interested in your thoughts.

P.S. Not that I'm concerned. I'll be happy if it runs a few times. Depending on my success...I'll never do this again...or I'll have moved on to more substantial models...hopefully the latter. ;D


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Some of the small toy, (Mamod etc.), boilers were/are made from brass and operate at very low pressures, (<15psi). As your boiler appears to fit into this category then I guess a brass stay would not be amiss.

The de-zincing of brass is a function of time. temperature and environment. The time is reduced as temperature is increased. The more the environment enables an increase in potential difference to occur, the more rapid will be the loss of the zinc and structural collapse of the alloy as a whole. Well at least that's my take on it.

IMHO the choice of silver solder v plumbers solder is more related to temperature, i.e. if the boiler runs low on water the potential for failure is far greater with low melting point soft/plumbers solder, not only does silver solder have a higher melting point, (as you found out when it melted the aluminium bar, next time use a rusty iron one), it has a much higher bond strength. There could be some differences in X Ocean terminology of soft, plumbers and silver solder. On this side of the pond plumbers solder is a lead/tin 70/30 or sometimes 60/40 soft solder. The other consideration is the choice of flux and the potential for residual flux to cause corrosion, e.g. killed spirits. (muriatic acid), commonly used with soft solders.

Sorry to prattle on like a frustrated chemist, believe me you are at if not over the limits of my knowledge. Despite that I hope I have helped a little.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## tmuir

Zee brass on a toy low pressure boiler such as you are making if looked after will last more than your life time as long as you empty the boiler after each use and store it with the safety valve out to allow it to dry out.
If you store it in a wet locaction or leave water in the boiler, it may only last a few years.
I've got brass toy steam engines over 80 years old that are still sound with no dezinc as they were stored in dry locations.

As you won't be steaming this every week for hours at a time don't worry about dezinc.
Avoid using deionised water in it though, distilled water is the best thing to use.


----------



## b.lindsey

Am still following along Zee...and the boiler looks great, despite the few hiccups. As always the discussions of various issues or techniques is a help to many of us I'm sure. Keep up the fine work.

Bill


----------



## fcheslop

Congratulations Zee one more hurdle out of the way.Bet that congratulatory drink tasted good :big:.As to the brass boiler I have a couple nearly 90 years old and as Tmuir mentions they are fine as long as they are stored correctly. Best of luck with the rest of the build


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the explanation Bob. I mentioned plumber's solder but was referring to what they call 'silver solder' at Home Depot. I think it's less than 4%.

Right or wrong...whenever I hear 60/40 I think of solder for electronics. Very soft. But that's because I've used that for 30 years in my job and prior hobby.

Thanks tmuir. And thanks for the reminder to use distilled water.

Thanks Bill. Yeah this forum is the best for helpful information.

Thanks fcheslop.


Dreamed all night about soldering on the last part (bushing) to the boiler. A nightmare or two about the other bushing falling out...but I don't think it'll happen.

And then the next fun part...soldering the tubing to the porting blocks and steam dome. It's supposed to be done in situ but I'm concerned about the scorching that will occur to the frames and how to mount the blocks without the cylinders (although the manual shows the cylinders installed too).

I'd been thinking of making a jig to do this...probably out of aluminum. After yesterday's adventure I will rethink that. ;D In situ is looking better all the time.


----------



## mklotz

Re not melting out the first bushing while soldering the second...

I'm just winging it here but could you make a close-fitting aluminum "plug" for the first bushing that would act as a heat sink to draw heat away from the bushing while the second bushing is heated? Similar to using a heat sink on a delicate transistor lead while soldering?

If said heat sink were larger in diameter than the bushing hole and mechanically attached to the bushing at worst it would prevent the bushing from falling into the boiler. A wet rag wrapped around the heat sink would help it to lose heat faster.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ah you were reading my mind Marv.

I was thinking of screwing on the safety valve (chimney), or the tire hose connector, or the other thingy used for testing (can't remember the name of it but I think it's used for testing pressure).

One is brass, one is steel, and the other may be aluminum or steel (I'm at work and can't remember).
If it's aluminum...I'll use it. 

I was also thinking of wrapping a wet rag but around the entire boiler on the bottom half. The bushing left to do is very near the other end.

Thanks.


----------



## mklotz

No, Carl, I was reading *my* mind.  (And a horrible, cynical and slightly pronographic miasma it is - like a travelogue written by P. J. O'Rourke.)

If it's feasible to solder the bush with the boiler standing vertically, it might be possible to simply stand the boiler in a pan of water such that the already-soldered bush is submerged. I've done something similar on a couple of things and it worked.

The risk, of course, is that the heat sink may work too well and prevent you from bringing the bush to be soldered to temperature. However, the boiler is thin-walled so it can't conduct heat away too effectively.

Whatever you try, ensure that the boiler interior is vented to the atmosphere while soldering. DAMHIKT.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

So how does one express it?

The boiler is ruined.

The bushing ended up with a leak.

First attempt to fix resulted in a smaller leak.
Second attempt resulted in still a leak and solder running down the side.
It looks pretty shoddy.

Maybe I got a little scared too. Once the front end got cherry red...I was afraid of the cap falling off. I think the bushing was too close to the front end.

I don't think it's repairable...even if it is...it just looks like crap. I have no idea how they can make one to look like the prototype.

1st choice...do it again...end caps, bushing, stud, and drain pipe. Possible.
2nd choice...trash it and go on to another project. Very appealing.
3rd choice...try again and wrap even more solder on it. Least palatable.
4th choice...set it aside for a few days and reconsider 1st and 2nd choices.

I'll go for 4th choice. Then I'll probably go for 3rd choice...I mean...if it's ruined anyway...

And oh yeah...


RATS!


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Zee, I'm sorry to hear about this. 

Please don't take this wrong but it was realized at the outset that once you got on to making your boiler that the entertainment and educational value of your thread would likely increase in magnitude. Sorry it had to be at your expense but darn, I am sure am enjoying it, but in a good way. :bow:

-Trout


----------



## Artie

Deep breath Carl, deep breath.....

Hard soldering isnt as easy as it looks (sometimes it is), it can bite you though, just like you have been now. Its a skill that takes practise, in fact I would have ben surprised had you been 100% successful first time out.

I know by your posts and results that you have set high standards for yourself, but how about just 'patch' this boiler up for now, get the beast running and later build your own.

Cheers Rob


----------



## mklotz

Sorry to hear that. It can be depressing. Take consolation in the fact that it's a pretty complex job for a first foray into the dark world of brazing.

I would add to your list...

1.5th choice...Redesign the boiler/bush assembly for ease of fabrication.

End caps held in place by longitudinal copper stay, threaded end of which forms securing stud. End of stay that protrudes at front of engine covered with decorative 'headlight' or somesuch. Bushes made with shoulder so they can't fall into boiler. Bushes silver soldered after end caps have been soldered. Maybe boiler held upside down while soldering bushes so solder run can't flow over boiler surface. (Use less solder and there won't be any runs.)

Now that you know some of the things that can go wrong, redesigning for manufacture should be a walk in the park.

And finally... cheer up, this isn't the worst disaster you'll ever experience. I know that isn't very cheery but it puts things in perspective. Have a martini. In a fit of empathy, I'll have one too.


----------



## ozzie46

Sorry to hear it Zee, But I know you will come back strong and end up with a boiler to be proud of. 

  We have confidence in you. Your inner self won't let it beat you.

Have a rest, take a walk, kick a cat er can down the road. Then come back swinging.

  Ron


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

S$$T POOP CRAP and BOTHER.    

You have my sympathy and I like item 4, sit back, relax with your favourite substance of abuse and contemplate your navel until......................... inspiration strikes. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## bearcar1

Relax Z', there is always piano lessons ;D :big: Of course you'll have to limber up those elbows a bit more. Sorry to hear of your troubles and it sucks big time. However, perhaps a bit of time away from all of this, a day, day and a half. Maybe think about how to rescue this one, even to a certain degree just for the experience of having done so. You may even surprise yourself and bring it back from the brink. At least you will have tried. Please do not give up, I have thoroughly enjoyed seeing and hearing of your journeys and absolutely enjoyed your sense of humor along the way. A couple more cups of 'olive soup' should cure what ails you and in the morning you'll wonder "what the Hell am I doing this for?" ;D

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hey thanks everyone. And I mean *Thanks Everyone*.

Let's back up a sec...yeah I'm bummed...but gee...this project has a lot of success associated with it. I mean think about it...3rd (4th? 5th? few) major machining project in my life...I'm pretty happy with the (untested) cylinder work...and the sheet metal work (one of the reasons I wanted to do this)...and there's been some success...at least some experience...with soldering. It's not over yet.



			
				Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> the entertainment and educational value of your thread ...Sorry it had to be at your expense



Not me. I get a lot of satisfaction out of those two reasons. Thanks.



			
				Artie  said:
			
		

> how about just 'patch' this boiler up for now, get the beast running



Thanks Rob (Artie? Just who are you?). Thinking (albeit groggily) about it.

Thanks Marv. *A* martini? I'm working my third but maybe it's not just because of the boiler. ;D

Thanks Ron. The cat came to mind but the daughter would kill me.

Bob...I had to laugh about the navel contemplation. Let's remember that that was a reason why I started this hobby. ;D I was scared that I'd up end up old doing nothing but contemplating my navel. (It's a pretty nice navel though. It's got this little curve and small...oh.)

Thanks Jim. I tried piano...I'll leave it to wife and daughters (they're good!).

Again...thanks everyone. Bummed but not out. Still thinking about trying to plug the hole and not worrying about what it looks like. I'm not going to let this setback take away from what I accomplished on this build. A little over a year ago I couldn't imagine even getting this far.

Now it's time for supper. A good idea considering I'm on my 3rd dose of 'darn it drink'.


----------



## Deanofid

Shoot, Zee. All through the last 10 posts or so I was saying the 'darn' word, and even popped a pain 
pill in the spirit of commiseration. Then your last post came up and I see you're not yet suicidal after all. 
Well.. GOOD. 

I'm feeling no pain, right along with you. Here's what I'd suggest; Tomorrow, make something unrelated 
to the boiler/loco. Something that offers simple success. A plunge center for your tail stock, a free 
spinning tap holder for your mill, or turn up a nice little stylus from drill rod and harden and temper the 
tip for doing tiny center pops.
Something like that. 

Then go back and fix your boiler.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

It's tough to be too hard on oneself when the daughter decides to make chocolate chip cookies! Here's a tip everyone...chocolate chip cookies! They'll put a smile on your face regardless of shop results. (I haven't told her that I wish she'd add pecans though.)

On a related(?) subject...

I pulled the fuel tank out of the citric acid pickle...

I notice a lot of 'green' in the corners. I associate 'green' with copper patina but this is brass and silver solder. Any ideas?

I'd post a pic but my picture taking finger is wrapped around tonight's local commiseration. Don't ask how I'm able to type this...

I'll try another day...maybe it's the light.

Anyone feel like a song? I feel a song coming on. Let's see...
No...I'll spare you. I know how these things get stuck in your head...
like..."Found a Peanut...Found a Peanut... Found a ....just now...Just now...I found..."

hee hee hee...if I suffer...everyone suffers.

DARN THAT BOILER!


----------



## bearcar1

Do you know the words of the Fighting Irish school song? You don't? Good. Let's keep it that way ;D


BC1
Jim


----------



## Philjoe5

> I notice a lot of 'green' in the corners. I associate 'green' with copper patina but this is brass and silver solder. Any ideas?



Zee - brass has lots of copper in it and if you throw chemicals and heat on it the copper patina will show up.

I have empathy for your troubles with the boiler but I agree with the others. Take a day or two and then come back at it. There are a number of options you're looking at now and a few more may materialize in the next day or two.



> 2nd choice...trash it and go on to another project. Very appealing.



When you solve this problem you'll look back at this option and laugh at how miserable this part of the project made you feel.

Keep on keepin' on.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## ksouers

Commiserations all around, Zee. Have another cookie, and a 'tini.

I gotta pile on with everyone else. Give a rest for a few days. Let your noggin' work on it while you're not thinking about it. Solutions will come to you, if you don't force them.


----------



## tmuir

Bummer.
When I first got my lathe I decided to make a very simple 'Heros' engine.
I made it all out of copper and being it would only have a table spoon of water in it and to open tubes on it I just butt soldered the boiler endcaps.
I silver (hard soldered / brazed) it all up.
I then decided to mount it in my lathe to trim up the uneven edges on the top endcap as I had already done the bottom side.
This is where I learnt why most people hate machining copper.
Half way through the cutter bit into the copper, stove in the side of the whole little boiler (It was only 40mm long), it ripped it out of the chuck and hurled it across the room.
I never did make another Heros engine. :big:

Good luck on attempt two


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Once the front end got cherry red...I was afraid of the cap falling off. I think the bushing was too close to the front end.
> 
> ..........I don't think it's repairable...even if it is...it just looks like crap. I have no idea how they can make one to look like the prototype.
> 
> ...........I mean...if it's ruined anyway...



Zee

 I missed this run of posts for some reason and sorry to hear of your troubles. So look on the bright side, if it is ruined anyway it can't get ruined further so an opportunity to do something you were trying to avoid. Clamp it down heat it to cherry red and yank the troublesome end plate off. Throw it all back in the pickle and go for a beer.....

Then re-assess the situation. It may just be a case of remaking the end plate with a bush that stays put.

You've been in electronics so you'll understand the concept of a tinned joint. The end of the boiler will be tinned so the new plate won't fit straight away so stand the barrel on its end heat it up and jam the new plate on. It may not go fully home first time but a subsequent clean up and second reheat may get you there.

Nothing ventured nothing gained and if it doesn't work you no worse of than you are now.

Pete


----------



## b.lindsey

Sorry for this turn of events Zee. I second (or third or whatever) Marv's advice. Now that you have done this once...and parts of it WERE successful to be sure... set the little boiler on the workbench, stare at it, go over it in your head (with or without liquid consolation elixer)...what worked well and what didn't... and change the design in whatever ways you think will solve the main issues. As we all learn, machining is more about planning, set-up, and what order to do things in than it is about making chips (or in this case solder joints). The more experience we gain, the more productive will be that mental part of it and you have gained (and shared) a lot of that in this thread. Bu all means don't give up on it...just give it some time and reasoned thought...and when you least expect it... that "ah haaaa!!!" moment will come.

Bill


----------



## ariz

Zee, I'm sorry to hear what happened, but... hey, you were building a boiler and that isn't an easy task
at least when you deal with it for the first time
I didn't build one till now and I'm sure that my attempts would be even worst than yours

so, follow the advices of these great fellows and take it easy 
I also toast your success with a martini


----------



## Captain Jerry

Zee

I'm surprised at all of the empathy expressed. Most of us know only success and know nothing of setbacks, great or small. Maybe a nice relaxing day at the office will help take your mind off.

Jerry


----------



## fcheslop

Sorry its gone pear shaped.As you said earlier its all a learning curve it just gets a little grizzly at times . Out of curiosty has the chrome survived and is the boiler beyond saving?.
regards Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks guys.

Jerry...


			
				Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> I'm surprised at all of the empathy expressed.
> Most of us know only success and know nothing of setbacks, great or small.



Ah...a fisherman. How big was that one that got away? :big:



			
				Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> Maybe a nice relaxing day at the office will help take your mind off.



Uh...it's supposed to be the other way round. :big:

Hey everyone...I'm not that down. Like I said earlier...there's a lot of successes in this project (and a lot of fun).
Including the boiler...I've never done this and I'm feeling pretty good I got this far considering where I started from.
Things could have gone a whole lot worse. ;D

Then again...things could have gone a whole lot better. :big:


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, your experience is pure Déjà vu - aluminium melting, solder going where its not supposed to et al , and it still does for me!


> I have no idea how they can make one to look like the prototype


Rather simple really; it wasn't one of their first attempts at silver soldering ;D



> Hey everyone...I'm not that down. Like I said earlier...there's a lot of successes in this project (and a lot of fun).
> Including the boiler...I've never done this and I'm feeling pretty good I got this far considering where I started from.


That's the spirit - as you have shown in the past as well!

There's more positives than negatives in your build. Just tackle the problems head-on. In my limited experience that works; a set-back is merely a moment in time to sit back and evaluate "What did I do wrong ?" and "How can I do it right" or alternatives to do it right. If needed, choose an alternative. Then make a positive decision to go for it again and, well, GO FOR IT !

Sorry; not much useful info here... I think I may have had one too many *beer* :big:

Arnold


----------



## Artie

Poor Carl.... classic denial.... *bang* with support from us all he just MAY pull through.... will take some effort from the collective though.... Rof}


----------



## zeeprogrammer

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> Sorry; not much useful info here... I think I may have had one too many *beer*



Just posting is a help. Thanks. Read on...



			
				Artie  said:
			
		

> with support from us all he just MAY pull through...



the wringer? :big:

Tried option 3 tonight (try to fix it). Tried 3 times. My lucky charm has gone bad. Thought I had it the first round...but no. The hole seems to be getting bigger.

So...options 1 (do it again) and 2 (do something else) still open. I'll continue on option 4 (think about it).

Option 1 is drawing me...

In the meantime I'll join Arnold from afar. I'll stick with the vodka martini though.

Here's some alcoholic blasphemy though...I drink my martinis from a jelly jar. ;D


----------



## SAM in LA

Sorry about all of the opportunity's that keep popping up with your hard soldering. I have decided that term "Hard soldering" does not just mean it has an elevated silver content, it also means it is "Hard" to do. I have now made 4 cylinder assemblies for the piston valve on my wood beam engine. :wall:



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Here's some alcoholic blasphemy though...I drink my martinis from a jelly jar. ;D



Jelly Jar? *beer*

It sounds to me that perhaps your martini is moonshine with an olive. Rof}

Sorry, couldn't resist.

SAM


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Here's some alcoholic blasphemy though...I drink my martinis from a jelly jar. ;D



It sounds to me that 'T' doesn't trust you with the stemware...

Very un-007-ish, old boy.
Oh well. It still gives you a license to chill.

Dean


----------



## bearcar1

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> It sounds to me that 'T' doesn't trust you with the stemware...
> 
> Very un-007-ish, old boy.
> Oh well. It still gives you a license to chill.
> 
> Dean



Dean, she probably got tired of picking up all of the sippy cups he was leaving all over the place Rof} Rof}


and "a license to chill"..... *_groan_* ....


BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

Well, we do what we can, Jim. 
Sorry for the groaner. Pretty lame, I know. Been using my hacksaw all day and was
too tired to think up a good one.

Dean


----------



## ksouers

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyhtLmQTPpA[/ame]


----------



## bearcar1

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Well, we do what we can, Jim.
> Sorry for the groaner. Pretty lame, I know. Been using my hacksaw all day and was
> too tired to think up a good one.
> 
> Dean


 



;D

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> It sounds to me that 'T' doesn't trust you with the stemware...





			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> she probably got tired of picking up all of the sippy cups he was leaving all over the place



And here I thought you all were getting to know me and my conniving ways...

A glass of what appears to be ice water raises fewer eyebrows from those who don't know me.
And a 'small' glass (jar) raises fewer questions from those who do know me. ;D

'license to chill'...sheesh.
'sippy cups'...that day will come.


----------



## bearcar1

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> 'sippy cups'...that day will come.


 :big: :big: That is good to know Z', I'm getting to the point where elbow straws aren't doing much for me anymore......... but a Mason Jar? 
(somehow flashes of a young Burt Reynolds and banjos comes to mind) 
That stuff will make you go blind you know...... Honey, is that you?.......


whew! I'm OK now

BC1
Jim


----------



## Maryak

All very interesting but....................................are they shaken or stirred ??? : ??? : (the martinis that is)

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Maryak  said:
			
		

> All very interesting but....................................are they shaken or stirred ??? : ??? : (the martinis that is)



Poured.

Anything else is a waste of time. :big:


----------



## bearcar1

Rof}

BC1
Jim


----------



## Maryak

*"TOUCHE"* :bow:

Now......... _about that boiler_................................................... ???

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Kevin, somehow I'd missed the 'License to Chill' video. Nice.
...................

Time to end Option 4. That leaves:
Option 1 (do it again)
Option 2 (do something else)

No doubt you all knew where I'd end up.

Option 1.


----------



## tmuir

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> No doubt you all knew where I'd end up.
> 
> Option 1.



Maybe just use some copper or brass pipe without the plating, that way you can just W&D it once finished to clean it all up and give it a polish.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tmuir. I'll leave that decision off for a while.

Marv is probably sitting there snickering to himself..."sure, sure he will...zeep will diverge from his path...sure he will"



I made the two bushings today.

That's four bushings so far. If I keep this up I'll get good enough to go into business. So long as it's .34 x .34 and 1/4-28.

Or thereabouts.


----------



## mklotz

Titter. Snicker.

Yeah, but will he depart from the construction notes? Will he design it the way it should have been designed in the first place?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Titter. Snicker.



Aren't those different genders? :big:

Woke up several times last night thinking about one thing. (Okay...two things but we won't talk about that.)

The stud (aw gee...this is bad timing)...

You'll remember that it fell out when the solder softened from a later operation.
In, what I like to call wisdom (but you might call inevitability), I had bought extra material should a desire to duplicate a part (hee hee) overcome me.

So I have a hunk of 1 3/8" round by 1.2" brass that I bought to 'duplicate' the end sheets. If I were to 'follow the construction notes' I would cut this in half and be back at the same starting point as when I received the kit.

When I do that, I'll have two (less than) 0.6 pieces of brass that will get trimmed to 0.16. So what I'm thinking is...

Make the stud an integral part of the end sheet. That is...when I go to turn (face) the part down to .16...turn it down to the 'stud' and then thread it. No soldering necessary.

What do you think? It's waste brass anyway. The alternative is to use 45 silver solder for the stud and hope that I don't melt it when I solder the end sheet on with 56.

Another question...as I said, it's only 1.2" long (the stock material). That will make it an interesting exercise to bandsaw cut. Do you think I can hacksaw this? (You know me...and I won't take offense.) Or what about parting it? Too much? (If I did I'd part close to center and then break it off.)

Oh...and something else...tmuir (as well as others) have suggested using copper or brass tubing instead of the drain pipe. I'm not ready to give up on that. I'll probably take the (yes...I did get a spare) drain pipe and see if I can work it better than the last one. If I can...I'll go for it...if not...I'll..I'll...cry first and then think about it.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee,instead of turning all that brass to dust why not make the flange plates by forming sheet material ? much cheaper and far quicker.All the best


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi fcheslop. It's a great idea but I'm more inclined to do that on another project.

It's not that it couldn't be done here...but I want to try and stay true to the kit. My hope is the next person to buy this kit will learn something here. (Even if it's..."I ain't doing what Zeep did!")

Perhaps more importantly though, I'm learning some things here that I wouldn't or would learn differently if I formed sheet metal. That day will certainly come though.


----------



## mklotz

> If I were to 'follow the construction notes'...
> 
> ...but I want to try and stay true to the kit.



Haven't we had this discussion before? You know how I feel about following instructions written by some grinning idiot. 

Rather than wasting all that brass (and time), I would make the stud threaded on both ends with a thin shoulder section separator. Screw it into a threaded hole in the boiler end cap until the shoulder seats and silver solder in place. Don't use the 4% solder.

Go with the chromed pipe - you know you want the bling - and exercise better solder flow control. If it still turns out too messy, slather it with black barbecue paint and call it stylish. Put shoulders on the bushes - they will keep them from falling in as well as acting as a place for the solder to wick to, thus keeping things neat.


----------



## Deanofid

I had suggestions, but then I read Marv's last post and see he's been reading my play book. 
So, my advice this time is, "Whut Marv dun sayd awreddy". 

Dean

post script; Oh, and if I were doing this the way those jokers who wrote the instructions actually did it, 
I'd be using regular soft solder, same as they did. I know in my bones they didn't use silver brazing 
wire on this thing.

Dean (again)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Haven't we had this discussion before? You know how I feel about following instructions written by some grinning idiot.



Why yes we have. And why yes I do. ;D



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Rather than wasting all that brass (and time), I would make the stud threaded on both ends with a thin shoulder section separator. Screw it into a threaded hole in the boiler end cap until the shoulder seats and silver solder in place.



Seems a neat idea. Always interesting how many different ideas can be generated to solve the same problem.

The end cap is only .04" thick. Does that provide enough support? And, does this prevent the issue of unsoldering when the main piece is soldered to the boiler?



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> Go with the chromed pipe - you know you want the bling - and exercise better solder flow control. If it still turns out too messy, slather it with black barbecue paint and call it stylish. Put shoulders on the bushes - they will keep them from falling in as well as acting as a place for the solder to wick to, thus keeping things neat.



Yeah I have to admit I want the bling.

Shoulders on the bushes sounds sensible. I'd have to think about how to do it. The tube is round...wouldn't a flat shoulder leave too much of a gap? How would I make it?



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I'd be using regular soft solder, same as they did. I know in my bones they didn't use silver brazing wire on this thing.



Yeah...this was brought up before. I agree they didn't use silver brazing. But is there a good reason not to? I suspect that even using soft solder the stud unsoldering itself would still be an issue.

I'm not worried about the 'waste of brass and time'. I figure the brass bit I have won't be used for much else. But I am concerned whether silver soldering (brazing) rather than soft soldering is appropriate or can be successful. Am I wasting my time trying to silver solder?


----------



## ozzie46

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> But I am concerned whether silver soldering (brazing) rather than soft soldering is appropriate or can be successful. Am I wasting my time trying to silver solder?




 E-Gads man never! look at the experience you're gaining! But I know you were not serious.  ;D ;D ;D

 Ron


----------



## mklotz

0.040 is a bit thin to thread. So, make a stud with a thread on one side of the shoulder and a tenon that fits the end cap hole in the other.

Silver solder the end caps and then soft solder the stud and bushes in place. Doing the soft soldering last means you don't need to worry about previously soldered stuff coming undone. If you're worried about the integrity of the stud joint, just make it flat on one end and solder it to the exterior of the end cap. A scratched circle during the machining of the end cap will tell you where to locate it.

[Aside: My STEAMT program tells me that at 20 psig water boils at 260 degF so that's about how hot your solder joints will get - well below the melting point of even soft solder.]

You've seen folks here describe the making of curved bushes to fit a cylindrical boiler. Basically, you use your boring head to carve a radius into the end of the stock to match the boiler OD radius. It's dead simple.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> make a stud with a thread on one side of the shoulder and a tenon that fits the end cap hole in the other.



I had wondered about that some time ago but (having no experience to know better) was worried whether the solder would hold against the pressure. I'm sure this would not be approved at higher pressures.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> just make it flat on one end and solder it to the exterior of the end cap.



I like that. I'd have to figure out a way to keep the stud in place while soldering. Probably wire it. But I have to admit...I'm still thinking about the integral stud. What? Did you just sigh? ;D



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> well below the melting point of even soft solder.]


We're talking about the same stuff you can buy at HD right? 4% silver? Or that 96/4 that Dean mentioned in his thread. That's probably what I'll go for. Have to order it as I want 1/32...the stuff at HD is too big.



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> You've seen folks here describe the making of curved bushes to fit a cylindrical boiler. Basically, you use your boring head to carve a radius into the end of the stock to match the boiler OD radius.



Yes. I figured the boring head but was stuck on cutting the shoulder. Rather silly once I thought more about it.

Use the boring bar in the mill and cut the radius.
Then put the bar in the lathe and turn to diameter then turn the shoulder.
Drill and tap and then part off.

I've never used my boring bar.

However...when it comes to soldering it...

The boiler is chrome plated. The only part that is brass (edge of hole) would be underneath the shoulder. Do I place a ring of solder around the shoulder prior to placing the the bushing in the hole? Will the solder get to the brass on brass?

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## mklotz

Holding the stud while soldering it...

Folks make a "third hand". Picture a long, heavy steel wire with one end bent at 90 deg. Fitted with two legs on which it pivots so the end of the bent portion can bear down on something that is being soldered. An integral weight near the bent end provides downward force. The tip of the bent portion is turned to a blunt point to minimize heat transfer.

I have an old lab stand - the sort of thing used to hold a Beatrice flask over a Bunsen burner while you cook your latest chemical concoction. It supports a vertical sliding rod with a pointed end that has a weight on the upper end - same principle as above but different support. The type described above is slightly more flexible since it has greater reach.

"Soft solder" =? 4% HD stuff...

Yes. If it's too thick pound it flat on a clean anvil of some sort and cut off slender strips to approximate thinner solder. It doesn't need to be cylindrical to work.

Bushes...

With a base curved to fit the boiler OD, you would be soldering the curved base directly to the boiler exterior. I'd use an aluminum plug to align the bush to the hole. Remove the chrome plating under the curved shoulder. Apply flux and flattened solder. Turn boiler upside down so bush at bottom. Heat until solder flows.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv. Good ideas.

I have to think about it. I had 'success' putting in the one bushing..not sure what happened on the second. The proposal represents a 'first time tried' which always seems riskier to me than doing it again.

I was also concerned about screwing up the finish by taking the chrome off around the hole that the bushing would seat on.

However, I may not worry so much about that now. I just trimmed one end off the pipe and a large chunk of chrome came off. I think most of it will be hidden by the end cap and I can also turn the boiler such that the blemish is on the bottom.

Ha...not that any of looks will matter.


----------



## mklotz

> I had 'success' putting in the one bushing..not sure what happened on the second.



Solder is really bad for spanning gaps. It may have been that you had a (tiny) gap of sufficient width that the solder couldn't close it. If I understand the design correctly, you're soldering the edge of the boiler hole to the OD of the bush - sort of like a butt joint. A small deviation of the fit of the boiler hole to the bush OD might have created a void that the solder has difficulty bridging.

That's one advantage of the curved-to-fit-the-boiler flange. You're soldering two fitted *surfaces* so minor local irregularities are less critical. Not to mention it's impossible for the thing to fall into the boiler.

Whatever you eventually decide, I suggest you make up a procedure sheet and publish it here before starting. Give us a chance to critique it for your benefit. You need not follow our criticisms but at least you'll know what risks you may be taking and can be prepared.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It may have been that you had a (tiny) gap of sufficient width that the solder couldn't close it. If I understand the design correctly, you're soldering the edge of the boiler hole to the OD of the bush - sort of like a butt joint. A small deviation of the fit of the boiler hole to the bush OD might have created a void that the solder has difficulty bridging.



I think you're exactly right. And I think it was caused by the bit wandering...in part because of the brass but given today's experience, the chrome cladding. When I trimmed the pipe today I tried to take it even slower than last time. I'm talking a feed rate on the order of fractions of a thou over several seconds. I noticed that when I got past the chrome, the cutting became easier. Still...it's not like cutting the half hard brass I have.

It's why the shoulder idea you proposed is so appealing. I have my doubts that it will look good...but like I said...I'm more interested in getting it to work.

You'd mentioned turning the boiler upside down so the bushings are at the bottom. Is the solder placed around the bushing (only to fall off) or between the shoulder and the pipe and some pressure applied so seating is achieved.

Oh and silly me...I'd mentioned earlier about (the unfounded) concern that the boiler pressure would pop the stud out. Well doh...what about the bushings? So it's no longer a concern (even though the stud is smaller).

The procedure sheet...hm...not sure what you're looking for...

The pipe is currently on a dowel held in the lathe with a live center. The ends have been trimmed off.

a) For each end, place tape around the boiler to keep a straight edge while the chrome is sanded off. Tape the other end to the dowel so the pipe doesn't spin. Protect the lathe bed with paper towels. Take it slow and use short lengths of sandpaper to lessen the chance of it grabbing. Coarse paper.

b) Move to the mill and drill/ream the two bushing holes. Use v-blocks in the vise. 11/32. I don't have a unibit yet and don't even know if they come in 1/32 grads.

c) No one has answered my question about parting of 1 3/8 brass. I'm thinking about using a small vise to hold the brass and having the bandsaw hold the small vise. I have to give that more thought.

d) For each end sheet, trepan, flip it, hold it by the inner surface, and face to length. Still thinking about making the stud integral in the one...that's just a turning job followed by threading. ('just' he says.)

e) Then it's soldering. The end sheets went very well last time so I'll do the same thing here. Stand the boiler on end, ring of silver solder and flux, and heat.

f) As for the bushings...either same as before using the jig or try the shoulder idea. Pipes are easy to get so I'll probably see what it would take to sand the chrome off around the edge. Successful or not, I want to try the boring bar.

Making the shoulder bushings...
Mount rod in a collet in the vise of the mill.
Use boring bar to cut the radius. (Calculate needed radius and use pipe to fit.)
Put bar in lathe (may not be exactly square anymore but close enough).
Turn bushing diameter.
Turn shoulder diameter.
Drill and tap.

AHA! I need (would like) to keep the bushing diameter as it is now. Otherwise the other bits that thread into it won't look right. That means the shoulder is a smaller diameter...and that means the hole I drill into the boiler is smaller. So it can't be 11/32.

How much shoulder is enough? 1/4-28 has a major diameter of 0.25".
(0.34 - .25) / 2 = .045 wall thickness.

.015 shoulder? leaving .03 wall thickness?

Thanks Marv. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Hi Zee;



> c) No one has answered my question about parting of 1 3/8 brass. I'm thinking about using a small vise to hold the brass and having the bandsaw hold the small vise. I have to give that more thought.



If it's 360 brass, that's the kind called 'half hard leaded brass', it will part off easy enough. You may not be able to get to the center of the piece with your parting tool. Do the last bit with a hacksaw, (protect lathe bed). I've parted off larger diameters than this on my little Taig. Set up good and square and run your lathe about 1/2 the speed you would think right for regular turning of that diameter.

If it's cartridge brass, and it's probably not in a piece that diameter, you can still do it easier than steel of the same size.


As to making shoulders on the bushings; The shoulder doesn't have to be large. Not even large enough that you could really notice it. It only needs to be a tiny step that will keep the pieces from falling into the boiler. Even .001" over the size of the hole in the boiler will prevent it from going inside.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. It is 360 brass. I was going to go in far enough to simply break it off but I can also hack saw it. I'll see once I get there.

As for the shoulder thing...goodie...that means it's do-able...try-able...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> As for the shoulder thing...goodie...that means it's do-able...try-able...



Oh really Zeep? And just how are you going to do that?
Once the radius is cut so the thing sits on the boiler...how do you cut the shoulder?

I'm thinking I missed the intersection at Primrose Lane.


----------



## Deanofid

I didn't take the radius into account, Zee, and actually wasn't even thinking of it when
I mentioned the shoulder thing. On my part, can't easily recover on that one.
I guess if you're going to do the radius, you need to get clamps large enough to hole the pieces
on while soldering.

I can think of another solution, but it may seem like a lot of work for the piece.
After the radius is cut, make a shallow cut on the ID of the piece, turn up a short hollow
spigot for a tight press into the cut in the ID and the same diameter as the hole in the
boiler. Press it in and you will have your shoulder to keep the piece centered in the boiler.

Thought about this later, but you probably don't even need the shallow cut in the piece. Just
push a bushing in.







The proportions are out of whack, but maybe you can see what I mean.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean,

That does seem like a lot of work. Plus, there's a 1/4-28 going through there and that doesn't seem to leave a lot of room.

I'm thinking I'll go back to the original plans. This time though I'll be a little more careful making the holes in the boiler. If I miss, then I can make the bushing a little larger...at least the part that goes into the hole. A little step wouldn't look that bad.


[EDIT: The bushing is .34 diameter and the pipe is 1 1/4". Without a radius and the bushing just sitting on top of a shoulder, that looks just under .024 gap between the edge of the bushing and the pipe on the sides. Too big? I'm thinking yeah.]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

rats and fooey

Front end cover of the boiler went well.
Rear end cover flew off the lathe and is ruined.

Now I have to order more brass.
I can't justify ordering a half an inch of 1 3/8 round brass.

Guess I have to think about what I need for the next project and order that too.
Guess I have to think about what the next project is.

And no...please don't offer to send me any brass. Allow me to revel in the fact that I have to order material for another project. ;D


----------



## mklotz

How about sawing the end off boiler #1, machining the residual boiler material out of it on the lathe, and using it on boiler #2?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> How about sawing the end off boiler #1, machining the residual boiler material out of it on the lathe, and using it on boiler #2?



Sounds very sensible. I suspect I'll have a lot of fun trying to get whatever kind of brass the pipe is made of removed from the end sheet. Then there's getting it true in the 4-jaw chuck (it doesn't fit the 3-jaw) and getting it cleaned out but still fitting the boiler. I'd also have to get the stud hole cleaned up but that looks pretty easy.

If I had more experience and knowledge so that I'd know the possibility of success...I'd go for it.

On another note...I've decided to go for your idea of soldering the stud from the outside. And I would do it last. This means I can set up a jig to do both bushings at the same time and have an outlet for the air inside the boiler.

I think a big reason why the one bushing failed is that it was too close to the front end sheet. Soldering the end sheet I think caused an issue for the hole used to hold the bushing.

Thanks Marv.


----------



## dsquire

Zee

I am sure that if you could centre up in a 3 jaw (if you had one big enough) that you can center it up even better in a 4 Jaw. Either that or I've been reading a bunch of ?? in your posts. You have thought each step through first then went ahead and performed it. Do the same thing with the 4 jaw chuck. There are many other posts on the forum here about setting up work in a 4 jaw. Some would rather use a 4 jaw than a 3 jaw even for round bar stock. Now get that hacksaw out and give those arms some exercise. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


----------



## mklotz

Reread my treatise on centering in the 4jaw. It's another thing you have to waste time learning so that you don't spend a lot of time wasting time. (Now, there's a sentence of which any grammarian would be proud.)

If the process of removing the residue of boiler #1 leaves the end cap slightly oversize, you can flare the end of boiler #2 slightly by driving in a sized bung made of aluminum or hard wood.

Won't the bushings ventilate the boiler interior themselves? They have holes in them, nicht wahr? Regardless, you can soft solder the stud. The exterior of the boiler will never reach 400 degF.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Oh yes...centering the 4jaw. I've gotten good okay with that...still...

As for flaring the boiler...well now we're talking about making a tool (and that's not what I mean) and possibly learning how not to do it (the flaring). ;D

This just seems to be going off-track from what I'm trying to accomplish. I understand I need to learn these things...I just don't want to right now.

I'd like to finish this by the time I have some visitors in a few weeks. So I'm more inclined to do things that I feel represent the lowest risk or the greatest chance of success.

Not that I'm saying the suggestions should stop...they're very interesting and worthwhile to me and I'm sure others.

As for the ventilation...if you recall the jig I made to hold the bushing...it uses a 1/4-28 bolt to hold the bushing in place. Doing one at a time would leave the other hole available for venting. But I'm thinking of doing both at once...that means both bushings will be 'plugged' by a 1/4-28 bolt. The end sheets will have been soldered in place before that. So where does the heated boiler air go? Having the stud hole would be an advantage.

Now to get the credit card out...I have some ideas for the next project but no idea of what material is needed...so I'm just going to have to get the minimal stuff.

Thanks Marv!


----------



## bearcar1

Drill a hole through the center of the bolt axially, that would then allow the heated air to vent. Or did I miss something in the translations?

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Drill a hole through the center of the bolt axially, that would then allow the heated air to vent. Or did I miss something in the translations?



Hadn't thought of that. Can I? It's a socket head cap screw. Are they soft enough to drill?

And yes...I could answer that myself by trying it...but gee.


----------



## bearcar1

C'mon Zeepster, you can do this. :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> C'mon Zeepster, you can do this.



Ah yes...but something troubles me about you Jim. ;D
Gonna keep a Zeepster eye on you.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A real nice guy is helping me decide what other material to get when I order my 1" piece of 1 3/8 brass.

In the meantime I'm tempting fate and cleaning shop.
Or just tempting fate.
Or just moving things around.

Nah...I'm going to bed.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Missed your post dsquire. Thanks for looking.


----------



## dsquire

Zee

That's OK. That just shows that you go back the next day and reread the posts to see if you missed or miss interpreted anything.

I have been following along for 500+ posts or so. Just don't say a lot but read most all. 

Keep plugging away and it will all come together when it is ready. 

Cheers 

Don


----------



## bearcar1

Uh oh, not the Zeepster Eye!!!! :big: :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

:big:

Wrong eye Jim. It's the other one.

---------------------------------

It would be silly not to give Marv's suggestion a try. So this weekend I will hack off the end sheet from boiler #1 and see if I can machine it for boiler #2.

Maybe we shouldn't name them #1 and #2.
Implies the possibility of a #3. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

_THE_ boiler, then.  Yes?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> _THE_ boiler, then. Yes?



 :big: Great idea. Runner up would be 'THAT' boiler.

over there

that one

you know which one


----------



## seagar

Now I'm really confused. :shrug: :wall: Rof}


----------



## zeeprogrammer

:big:

Here's some pics of 'that other' boiler...

Sorry the pics are so bad...they looked good in the finder...
Ever since she stole my camera...gosh darn it...
Anyway...

The original...note the glob of solder...





You can also see how crappy the bushings line up. Well that's after the 3rd try...I'm not surprised they're off.

Just to see...I took a Scotchbrite and a little sandpaper to it...





So they either used soft solder and was able to clean up easily...or they lied.

Decapped...





You can also see how the bushings ended up. They're supposed to be at the same height.

But I don't apologize to anyone! I wielded fire! I may not have won...but I didn't lose.

Aw okay...it's pretty lousy. I'll take any opportunity to say 'ta-daaaa'.

This post is for all newbies.."You too can be a machinist..."

I crack myself up sometimes.
Not a good thing. The looks I get...


----------



## Deanofid

Well Zee, look at it this way; With the end cut off, you have a fine opportunity to check
out the flow of your solder. 
And, the shined up "other one" doesn't look bad, I think. This particular camera work
is a teensy deceiving, maybe..

Dean


----------



## ksouers

Zee,
It's a fair bet that the display model they show doesn't even function. It was probably put together with super glue. It's all show and no go.


----------



## Kermit

;D

That looks like the work I was doing AFTER I had a few years of practice. You are doing well enough (in my opinion)to ease up on the hard time you are giving yourself.

At least the solder is sticking to the metal!  8) When I first began, I tried a half dozen times before I discovered that I was using axle grease instead of flux. It was in my dad's tool box, and for some reason he had put grease in the tin can that used to have flux in it. So I grabbed up the torch and the little roll of solder and applied a little flux. It just balled up and rolled off, so, I put on a BIG blob and turned up the torch and quickly dropped it all and started throwing dirt on the massive grease fire on the floor of the family garage.  :-\

So, uh, like I said. You doing good!
I'll fade back into the shadows now, 
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and Kevin.

Well I couldn't wait...
So I chucked it up. Used a spacer I'd made some time ago. It was wonderful.
Centered it on the 4-jaw. It was wonderful.
Started turning. It was wonderful.
Probably the best finish anyone has ever seen.
You couldn't pay someone enough to have that kind of finish.
I mean it was a wonderful job. Beautiful.
You can't imagine how happy I was with this turning.
I can't even show you. It would be too intimidating.

Just knowing it was me was probably enough for you to know where this went. ;D

I was waiting for the boiler piece to go away. It never did.
It didn't occur to me that it was hanging on by the solder on the lip of the end sheet.
The result being a bigger diameter than the boiler. Way bigger. But what a finish.

Tomorrow I place an order for brass.

Thanks Marv for the suggestion. Had I taken it a little more carefully and slowly, in particular with more size checks, I think it would have been successful. The learning experience was well worth it. And Dean, you're right...it was interesting seeing the soldering on the inside of the boiler. Not bad!

Kermit..you posted while I was writing this. That's a great story. Classic. And thanks.

P.S. I can't help but give myself a hard time. Mom trained me well. That training got me 'T'. No complaints.


----------



## mklotz

Sigh.

Measure twice, cut... Oh, never mind.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Measure twice, cut...



"twice"

What? Did you forget it was me? It's 'once' for you and 'twice' for me. :big:

Yeah a bit disappointing. On the bright side (not that I'm always successful at staying on)...I was surprised how easy it was. I was figuring I'd see/feel a change as I went through the brass, chrome, solder, to brass. But it cut like butter.

Oh and guess what I ordered along with the bit of brass? Drill rod. Yep. I have removed the excuse of not having the material. Not to worry though...I have replacements.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Been cleaning up the shop (basement) a little.

Decided to take apart a wood shelving unit I'd built so I can use the wood for something else.

I'd made that thing about a year before I got married. It's 36 years old.

The kids are bummed about it. But gee...it's college student quality.
It brought back a lot of memories and made me nostalgic (thanks again Mom). 

So I looked at my welcome thread. It was 13 months ago I made my first engine. 16 months since I started this adventure of machining and metal working.

Thank you all.

(And no...I'm only on my 2nd martini. Now I'm being called to dinner...time for wine.)

 :big:


----------



## Deanofid

You've come a long way, Zee. Keep it up, Drill Rod Man!



Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Finished preparing the boiler. A better job than the last one but I'm not too sure about the holes for the bushings. I moved them away from the end sheets a little and was more careful drilling them. So we'll see.

I also modified the jig to hold the bushings in place for soldering. The idea is to do them at the same time. I couldn't do that before (unless I drilled through the bolt) because the hot air inside would have no place to go. This time there'll be a hole in the rear end sheet. In addition, instead of a through hole through the aluminum, I tapped it. That should give a little more control in placing the bushing's height.

As you can see, the boiler will have to be raised relative to the jig but that's easy with a bit of Hardibacker board. More importantly, I need to shim the front end of the boiler relative to the rear.







I discovered that I've been violated. I found a cobweb on the top of my mill between the pulley and the cabling. Can you imagine? A cobweb on my equipment? I can imagine some equipment...but not my mill.

Now I must wait until the brass arrives.

Dum de dum de dum...
Twiddle twiddle twiddle...

Oh yeah! I could dust my equipment off. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

Your jig looks pretty neat, Zee. Kind of like a little crane you see at the dockyards.
A little loco lifter.

So sorry to hear about your violation! That's just so... wrong!

Dean


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

When dusting off your equipment, another must is..............."Polish the knob" :

I like the jig a jig a jig etc.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Philjoe5

Good work on the jig Zee. Someday that will be the beginnings of another project I think. I like Dean's idea - a dockyard crane.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean, Bob, and Phil.

I remembered I still had the stud to remake...using Marv's idea to mount it from the outside. That went well.

Then I remembered I still had to drill out the feed tube from the inner burner. I wasn't too worried about that part of it...but I was suspicious that the soldering job of the burner to the tube was less than satisfactory. I could see what looked like a pinhole between the tube and the burner on the bottom side.

Drilling was successful and sure enough...my suspicion was confirmed. I'll try resoldering it. If that doesn't go well...then I'll be remaking the burners. I won't remake the fuel tank. I should be able to make a sleeve and solder the fuel tank tube to the new tube/burner assembly.

I also thought I'd see how well the fuel tank system could clean up. The silver soldering really did a job on it...but no way it can look like the prototype at the beginning of the thread. I used a little sandpaper and scotchbrite. Enough to tell me that I think I can make it look passable with a dremel sized buffer. No?

Overall, not bad. I've spent longer times in zee-pit.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Heads up. I've got the new parts made for the boiler.
Time to solder (again).
Wish me luck.

The fork in the road is just up ahead...

To the left is 'A Work In Progress'.

To the right is 'Mistakes, Blunders and Boo Boos'. (I've been down that road.)

Behind me is 'Welcome'. (I'll go back if I have to. I'm used to 'do-overs'.)

I can always blame the sign post. "Did some funny guy move it?"
 :big:


----------



## mklotz

I shall be telling this with a sigh	
Somewhere ages and ages hence:	
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Welcome back Zee.

Air leak on the front bushing.
Solder went down the side of the boiler.
It looks like crap.

I don't have a good feeling about this.

This is the lowest I've been.

I'll give it one more try.
If that fails...I'll probably finish up the other soldering work (for the practice) and then put the project in the trash.

First I need to calm down.
Getting tired from the angry dance.

[EDIT:

Turn around Zee. Roller coaster is going back up hill.

Here Marv...let me do it for you. SIGH.

]


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, I can empathize with you at this point.

If I may offer a suggestion... Don't worry about the looks; I know you want a nice & shiny chromed boiler, but IMveryHO, that's adding a layer of complexity you don't need at first. Sand down all the chrome - and I do mean all of it - to a good depth. Then solder things again; use a soft pencil (or Tipex) to draw rings around the joints (about 1mm / 40 thou) away from the holes or bushing outsides - that will help keep the solder from going all over the place.
Once done, check for leaks, re-flux and solder again if needed.

When there's no more leaks, sand the lot down again, and paint it with heat resistant paint. The rest of your loco has more than enough shine!

But whatever you do, DON'T GIVE UP! - By all means do calm down - and then tell yourself you can do it and JUST DO IT!

Personally, I think you CAN do it Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.

You're right about the looks. I wasn't so worried about that. I'm happy to look amateurish at this point. But a stream of solder going down the side looks worse than amateurish.

I think you were posting while I was editing my last post...so you might have missed the reversal of fortune.

Got the stud, a' la Marv, soldered in. Here's a pic of the thing (showing the 'good' side)...






Too much solder? I used a single strand of .031 for the end sheets and the stud...but I doubled it for the bushings.

I put the chimney and air hose connector on to see the look. I don't think you can tell in the picture but there's a slight rake to them. I either didn't have the boiler shimmed right or something moved. Actually gives it a slight look of speed. ;D

Thanks for everyone's support.


----------



## 4156df

Zee,
From what I've read on this board and from personal experience, boilers always leak on the first few go rounds. Personally, I want to see your loco running on a track. Hope you'll hang in there.
Dennis


----------



## mklotz

Sigh^2

Did the bushings have flanges? Was there a pencil lead or typewriter erasing fluid dam around the flange to contain the solder? Were the bushings hanging down from the boiler when you soldered? Did you use less silver solder than you thought you needed?

Arnold's advice is spot on. You gotta finish it. If you don't, it will haunt you, you'll take to (more) drink and develop an ulcer, and require (more) therapy. DAMHIKT. Abrade the worst of the errant solder and paint it with barbecue paint, preferably something with a bit of texture. After all, have you ever seen a steam locomotive with a shiny bright brass boiler? Bling is for basketball stars and pimps. Engines should look functional. Think Craftsman period furniture, not Art Noveau. 

The stud looks great.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dennis. I don't know about the track though. No room for one. I need to think about a stationary thingie with idlers.

Marv...

No flanges. I don't know how to cut them. You'll see some previous posts about that.

I admit I forgot about using pencil...not sure it would have worked though in this case. The way the solder moved (away from the joint) I think it would have just pooled on the 'dam' (below the joint).

Not sure I could have put the bushings hanging down. I think the solder rings would have just fallen off.

As for less/more solder...I can't say until I get more experience. I used .031. I have .025 but I don't think it would have made a difference. On the other hand, for the bushings I think I used too much. As I said, I wound the wire twice...in part (and probably erroneously) thinking that the hole was still not a great fit for the bushing.

I'm going to try and clean it up the best I can and see what I think before I consider painting it. It's possible it'll look fine as is...considering.

By the way...there will be two direct flames under the boiler. Can the paint deal with that?



			
				mklotz  said:
			
		

> After all, have you ever seen a steam locomotive with a shiny bright brass boiler?



No. But there is that chrome one at the start of the thread. :big:

Thanks Marv.
And thanks for helping me spend another $17. I gotta get those mics you mentioned.
 :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Hi Zee;
From my point of view, that is, looking at the pic, the brazing/hard/silver solder looks like a solid job.
Have you got it to where it doesn't leak?

I know you had wanted it chrome, as in the propaganda picture, but what Marv says about finishing
it off in 'boiler black' makes sense. And then, it won't just be a copy of how someone else did it! 
I get a 'gob' now and then when silver brazing, too. Carefully file off the lumps, and sand things smooth
for painting, or for a brass surface.



> Bling is for basketball stars and pimps.



Eh... Yes, what Marv said, again. 

And yours;


> Too much solder? I used a single strand of .031 for the end sheets and the stud...but I
> doubled it for the bushings.



Yes, probably too much. Doesn't hurt the structure, but as you see, it can get away from you.
"I don't know if that will be enough" is usually just right.

EDIT: Just caught your last message asking about paint, Zee. I think it will be fine with the two burners.
Think of a wood burning stove. Inside is a couple thousand degrees roaring away. Paint still stays on. 
Engine headers, same thing. Get glowing hot at times and paint stays. 
Try it, I guess. 

Dean


----------



## doubletop

Zee

It looks good to me these things always tend to look like crap after they've come off the heat. Clean it up and you'll be amazed how much better it will look.

Chin up matey

Pete


----------



## mklotz

See attached COC of what I had in mind relative to flanges, etc.

With only a small amount of solder, capillarity should confine it to the surface of the flange adjacent to the boiler shell.

The flange, being thicker, should be heated by the flame. By the time the flange reaches brazing temperature, the boiler shell will be hot enough.

BTW, I hate to admit this but I love Art Noveau decorations.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. I'm less worried about how it looks than if it runs. Just look at me!

But no...my point was...there's a level where it doesn't 'look good' that I can live with...and then there's the level where it looks like crap. But we can put all that aside for now...I'm happy that the boiler seems to be okay.

Thanks Pete. You're right. I played with 'boiler #1' and was surprised how well it cleaned up. Even the fuel tank. Still...I need to get better so the 'clean up' isn't so hard.

Marv...I had wondered about the flange. The CoC helps a lot to understand.

Art Noveau eh? Floral...organic...ah! I get it. Nice shot. ;D

.....................

I can tell today's bit of work got the adrenaline (fear) going. I stink! I'll be glad to have more experience.

Four more pucker jobs (solderings) to go and a bit of drilling...


----------



## shred

If you really want the bling, you might be able to take a piece of shiny chrome tube the appropriate length, cut appropriate holes, slit it lengthwise opposite and pop it over the functional boiler once all is complete as 'cladding'. It's traditional, albeit not in chrome. The gap at the bottom will be for better heat transfer ;D ;D


----------



## bearcar1

Zee', sorry to hear you speak of your tribulations. Perhaps you could do as Marv suggested, that is make up the bushes with the small flange. The bushes could then soldered to the shell as he describes from the inside, before proceeding to the end caps. To me it would eliminate the problem of solder 'globbing' down the sides as you have encountered thus far. Have an Olive Soup and relax, think about it. Tomorrow is yet another day.


BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

For Marv's method to work, you have to make an egg shaped boiler.
Pointy end down.
Then you will have bunnies hiding your boiler at Easter time.

Dean
I'm tired.


----------



## mklotz

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> For Marv's method to work, you have to make an egg shaped boiler.
> Pointy end down.
> Then you will have bunnies hiding your boiler at Easter time.



Smartass! What is it about CRAP-o-cad you don't understand? Consider this though: my drawing talents are far better than my singing. Watch out or the next time I post a sketch, I'll provide it with a soundtrack.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Watch out or the next time I post a sketch, I'll provide it with a soundtrack.



Not my thread. Please. Not my thread. :big:

Thanks Shred.
Thanks Jim. Darn it...now I have to learn the difference between 'globbing' and 'dribbling'.
Dean...you need more casserole. ;D


-------------------------------------------

I have a ~7" piece of 3/32 OD copper tubing I need to bend into a 'U' shape with a 1.6" ID. I have a piece of 1.25" wood dowel that I'm going to tape to get to the 1.6 or thereabouts. The pipe needs to go through the steam dome before I bend it so I'll drill a hole (dimple) in the dowel to let the steam dome have a place to sit. The ends of the tubing have to bend back out a bit.

Question:

Should I anneal the copper before bending it? (I'm thinking yes.)
And if I do...how do I know when it's been annealed? (I'm thinking I don't know.)

Thanks.


----------



## arnoldb

:big: I second Zee on the not singing bit Marv!

Zee, Yes, you do need to anneal the pipe.

Heat it up red hot and drop it in some water; then you can be 100% sure it is annealed ;D

When you start bending it, it will harden up very quickly. If you feel it getting tougher to bend, stop and anneal it again.

Be careful while bending; the copper will want to collapse or go flat.

Hope this helps a bit


----------



## mklotz

You really need a tubing bender but we won't get into that now. I would use your cutoff tool to make a groove of 1.6" diameter in a piece of wood or aluminum. The groove will help to keep things aligned so the two ends of the bent tube end up parallel.

Yes, definitely yes, anneal it. It makes a big difference. Cu work-hardens easily.

Heat it to red heat and then let air cool or dump in water if you're in a hurry. (Cu doesn't act like steel. The water quench won't harden it.)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold.
Thanks Marv.

If the only reason to make the groove is to keep the ends aligned then it's probably not needed. There's about 3" of tubing from the steam dome to the port block so there shouldn't be an issue moving the tube to the port block hole.

I'm more worried that the tubing reach the porting block. Better to be a little long and file it down. If it's a tad short then the tube would have to be bent at a smaller radius.

Would the groove help prevent collapsing? If it does I'd think the diameter of the tubing would make a difference. Is that true?

I wonder how late the hobby shop stays open. :big:


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, the groove Marv mentioned will also keep the tube from collapsing - and if you make it, it needs to be a close fit to the OD of the pipe.

I don't know how thick the wall of your tube is; the thinner it is, the more likely it will collapse if bent without some form of support.
I've bent thin tubes without the use of tubing benders by tamping them full of sand and temporarily soldering the ends closed, but that might not work on tube this thin - you'll have a hard time getting sand in there. You could try filling it with water and plugging the ends and then freezing it (Anneal it first though!) if you want to try without a former. I don't think you'll have to re-anneal it while bending - just bend it in one move and don't fiddle around too much with corrective bending.


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Smartass! What is it about CRAP-o-cad you don't understand?



Everything. Obviously!!
Though, you performed well on the 'crap' part, just from my novice point of view.
Forgive me, Marv. I keep forgetting you're just a simple mathematician. 

Zee, I have nothing to add to the answers you already received concerning annealing. 
They sound exactly right to me.
I'm just here to spar with Marv, maintaining the entertainment value of the thread.

Dean
Awake at the moment.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well the road I was going to take to bend the tubing just seemed too much of a short-cut. Too risky.

The instructions provide another way but I didn't have the material to make the jig. Or thought I didn't.

I needed a disk 1.61" in diameter. The largest rod I have is 1.5". I remembered several threads last year that talked about using plate to make a disk (as in EZ Build).

So I went for it and it went surprisingly well...







While the instructions don't show it...I drilled a hole for a 1/4-20 so I could mount the disk on another plate. The hole was handy for the live center. I put some double tape on the back and had a go.

The instructions say nothing about annealing (nor collapsing). I suspect it's because the radius is so 'large' (or lousy instructions.) So I'll go ahead and anneal in the belief that this will reduce the possibility of collapse.

Side note: I cut a 1.8" square plate from 1/4" thick 3" wide sheet. First cut was on the band saw. After a while it just seemed to quit cutting. This happened last time with plate. No problems with bar. I used the hacksaw for the 2nd cut. I should've used the hacksaw for both...it was easy.

I just realized they have you solder the tubing in the steam dome before you do the bending. Once bent (around the boiler) they have to be 'bent' again at an angle to reach the port blocks.


----------



## mklotz

> Forgive me, Marv. I keep forgetting you're just a simple mathematician.



Better a simple math physicist than just plain simple. 

Come on, Dean, help us out here. Carl needs something bent and we all know you're the most bent guy on the forum. 

Carl,

Does that disk have a groove to fit the tubing? Is there a recess in the disk to accept the steam dome and lock it in place while you're bending the tube? (Be warned. You probably know already that I have an inexhaustible supply of I-told-you-sos.)

In your photo at upper right is an illustration that looks as if they're suggesting that, once the tubing is soldered in place, you remove the tubing inside the steam dome with a drill. Drilling copper is always a recipe for disaster. I think that job would be better done with an endmill. Maybe others could comment on that.


----------



## walnotr

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Well the road I was going to take to bend the tubing just seemed too much of a short-cut. Too risky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just realized they have you solder the tubing in the steam dome before you do the bending. Once bent (around the boiler) they have to be 'bent' again at an angle to reach the port blocks.



Funny how the illustrations don't show the boiler as chrome. Their illustration of a tube bender seems overly optimistic to me as well.

I agree with Marv, Dean and others about a groove (or better yet, a radius equal to the tubing radius) in the bending block. Having bent more than a small amount of tubing in my day using everything from hand benders to large hydraulic machines, I have never had success simply bending around a form. The best machines have mandrels with articulating balls that fit the ID of the tube, wiper dies that support the in-feed side of the tube and follower blocks to support the outer diameter of the tube. 

This gives a fair idea of some of the tooling used to make difficult bends:

http://www.summo.com/tube.pdf

Certainly more than you need to do but explains some of the basic principles involved in tube bending and what is happening when a hollow round tube is bent around a form.

Good luck, it's not as hard as it might seem.

Steve C.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv and Steve.

No groove in the disk. If this turns out to be a problem then I'll have to remake the disk since the groove will have to provide the correct diameter. Get those 'I-told-you-sos' ready. Hobby shop is just down the road. I hope they carry 3/32 copper tubing.

There is a recess for the steam dome...but no lock. If this turns out to be a problem I can easily make one.

You're right...they suggest a drill bit. Diameter is .250 and I have an end-mill that should work. Might be interesting to get the set up right.

Hm...I've just discovered that there's no way for the steam or air to get out. ;D Apparently I forgot to drill the other hole in the steam dome cover. And darn...it's a #60 bit.


----------



## Deanofid

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Better a simple math physicist than just plain simple.



Sorry Marv! It just keeps getting worse for you all the time.



> Come on, Dean, help us out here. Carl needs something bent and we all know you're the most bent guy on the forum.



M'kay, but I'm the straightest guy you will ever know. 'Cept for my vertebra.

Zee, a groove in that disk would be good, but if you can't manage it, work it the way you have it.
Cut (mill) a notch in the perimeter that will fit the bushing for the boiler. Kind of like this:






Solder the tubing into the bushing first, put the bushing into the notch and clamp it tight. If you have a
small piece of flat bar, hold the end of it tight against one side of the bushing, and roll it around the disk.
Repeat for the other side.

I'm hoping what you have for tubing is refrigeration tubing. It's very soft. If it's rigid tubing, then 
anneal it well. Heck, anneal it no matter what kind it is.

When you get it bent far enough around the form, anneal the points where the straight part of the 
steam supply tube is supposed to start, and bend it to point down. To do that, put a piece of rod 
about 3/8" or 1/2" diameter, into your vise, and use it as a form to bend the tube back. Lay the 
tube against it, and push gently. If you have to try more than once to get it right, anneal each time.

Oh yeah.. Mill out the piece of tube inside the bushing when you're done. No drilling. It will come to
tears. Don't worry about using a #60 hole for steam to get out. It probably won't care if it comes
out of a slightly larger hole!

I know the drawing is crummy, but at least it doesn't look like an egg.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Dean. Thanks.

This is what I have so far. You can see the notch at top. I also have a rectangular piece at the bottom that determines the 'width' of the 'U'. It doesn't matter that it's 'cock-eyed'.






From the instructions it looks like they take 1" rounds and 'roll' down the sides to bend the tubing. Maybe that'll work. I suspect though that I'll do most of it by hand and then use the 1" rounds near the bottom third to finish off. There might be an anneal or two in there...mainly cause I just don't know. This is a first for me.

Even if I screw up it's no biggie. Not like the boiler where a lot was invested when the last operation screwed everything up.

I don't know which is worse...
Marv's "I-told-you-sos", or
the Nun's ruler when I was in grade school. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Good grief. I guess I ought to look at your pictures before telling you to do what they already
told you to do. I didn't notice that notch in the round piece on your print. At all!
Well, I feel silly.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not to worry Dean. It gives me more confidence in the drawings and instructions when people are telling me the same thing.

Going back to the drilling of the hole I missed...

The drawing says a #60 (.04). Steam comes up from the boiler through the #60 to feed the hole drilled perpendicularly at .06. That in turn feeds the two tubes.

Why would that hole (the #60) be so much smaller?

I ended up drilling with a #54 (.055) cause all the smaller bits were broken. ;D


----------



## ksouers

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Why would that hole (the #60) be so much smaller?



Zee,
There are three kinds of steam: superheated, saturated and wet.

Wet steam has some condensation in it like what comes out of a boiling pot, that's what they are trying to avoid.

The purpose of the dome is to collect saturated steam. Some condensate will form on the sides of the dome and drip back into the boiler.

If you get too much condensation in the steam lines then your engine will behave more like a hydraulic ram.


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The fork in the road is just up ahead...
> 
> To the left is 'A Work In Progress'.
> 
> To the right is 'Mistakes, Blunders and Boo Boos'. (I've been down that road.)
> 
> Behind me is 'Welcome'. (I'll go back if I have to. I'm used to 'do-overs'.)
> 
> I can always blame the sign post. "Did some funny guy move it?"
> :big:



No,

But I wish he'd leave the bloody goalposts alone. 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## ksouers

Zee,
I just re-read my post and realized I gave an incomplete answer. Sorry, I'm blaming it on being late and tired.

I guess some definitions are in order.

Wet steam: Steam with significant amount of condensation in it. Usually ignored because it's not a factor except in very low pressure/temperature applications.

Saturated steam: Steam at or slightly above boiling temperature for a given pressure.

Superheated steam: Steam at significantly higher temperature for a given pressure. Usually reserved for higher pressure applications. Only occurs outside the boiler.

Inside the boiler steam is always at the saturated condition.


The rest of the answer:
Superheated steam is hotter (has more energy) than it should be for a given pressure. Or to put that another way, is at a lower pressure than it should be for a given temperature.

By having that small orifice in the line to let steam in it will have a lower pressure in the steam lines, thus somewhat superheated steam. With your low pressure boiler there isn't much distinction between the two, but it becomes significant on high pressure equipment.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Not to worry Dean. It gives me more confidence in the drawings and instructions when people are telling me the same thing.



Oh my. If I'm thinking the same way as the guys who wrote those instructions... Well, I've
lost the rest of my mind.

I'll just have to live with without it.

Happy Monday, Zee.

Dean


----------



## mklotz

What's astounding is the fact that he thinks it's a good thing to have confidence in the instructions.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> What's astounding is the fact that he thinks it's a good thing to have confidence in the instructions.



Rats. Not what I intended. What I meant was..."it gives me more confidence in my thinking about the instructions".
How about that? Do you buy that? Is cheap.

------------------------------------------

I will be visiting the hobby shop this week. ;D

Soldering the tube to the steam dome resulted in a melted blob of brass steam dome.

I think it's my eyesight. It didn't look like the silver solder was melting so I kept at it.

It's a keeper though. I gotta tack that one to the wall. :big:

On a side note...having annealed the tube the other day made it somewhat touchy putting the silver solder rings on without bending the thing up. It is very very soft.

The bright side...another day without an "I-told-you-so". :big:


----------



## bearcar1

"I told you so"





Does that count? ;D


BC1
Jim


----------



## mklotz

This just in ... Zee hard at work ...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Jim...uh...what to say...oh yeah...what I said before...gotta watch you.

Marv... :big: Good one. Now you need a pic of Chaplin from Modern Times and you get an idea of me tightening down anything with a bolt.

Kevin...thanks for the explanation on steam.

--------------------------------------------------

Well...since I had a nicely annealed bit of tubing...I thought I'd go ahead and form it...






I was very pleased!

You can also see how the pickling went...that was just after an hour or so.

And...you can see how the brass collapsed.


----------



## Deanofid

Well, it's obvious that your torch has enough heat for this job, Zee!
You WILL have this brazing/hard soldering thing down pat, soon. You're a pretty quick study,
really. Mostly 'cause you're a Tom Edison in the persistence dept.

When you head to town for some brass, have a look in the Ace Hdwe store to see if they have
some refrigeration tubing in the size you're using, just to have a few feet on hand in case you 
need it. It will come in a coil. (You don't have to buy the whole coil. They'll cut it to length.)

You know how it looks now, this brazing. When you put the torch to it, first, the flux boils for a few 
seconds,then settles down and just sits there. A while later the flux starts to get liquid again, kind of 
looking like syrup. Not long now, and the solder gets slightly shinier than it was. It's almost ready to 
go then. When you see that, try hitting it directly with the torch flame for a few seconds. Sometimes
it takes a little nudge to get it to go liquid and flow.
That might help. I don't know for sure, since I don't know exactly what you're seeing.
I have a video where I think you can see it. Will upload it and send you a PM.

Dean

EDIT: Just saw your post on the bending. Looks great!


----------



## mklotz

Hey, the bends look GREAT. Just to be fair, I'll take back one of my I-told-you-sos. (The one that said you needed a groove in the bending form.)

In fact it looks so good that I would be tempted to hack off the melted dome and make a new, two-piece one that could be soldered to the tubing.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.
Thanks Marv.

Interesting idea about hacking off the tubing...if I can't find the tubing at the hobby shop I may just try that. I hope to avoid it though...the jig needed to keep everything in place seems difficult.


----------



## Kermit

Zee, next time you are at the hobby center store. Look for and purchase some modeling clay. Nothing fancy, just simple clay like we used to make ashtrays and flower pots out of in school years back.

It works very well as little props that form into shape and hold pipe and such in place quite well and also resist the heat very well for the short time it is applied.

Poor mans universal jig - sort of.

Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Very neat idea Kermit. Thanks for that.

I only go to the hobby shop during lunch hour. Gives me just enough time to get exactly what I'm looking for. No time to hunt around. I'd spend more money.

It helps that the (backup) wine store is two stores down. That cuts down on shopping time too. I'll spend money but I won't get in trouble for it.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Life is a roller coaster.

Went to the hobby shop.
They got 3/32 tubing!!
Got 3 feet out the door when I remembered it was copper tubing I wanted..not brass.
Went back in.
They don't have 3/32 copper tubing!!

I have 3 brass tubes...so I can experiment. Any thoughts on that?
I can also hack the copper tubes I have and try that.

I also got the clay...anybody feel a need to recommend green, red, yellow, or blue? ;D
I'm thinking red or yellow...might be easier to see things. :big:


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee.Nice to see its coming along if you reused the copper tubing would it be possible to reuse you're jig to straighten it up after soldering just a thought.
best wishes Frazer


----------



## bearcar1

Yes but how many boxes of wine did you procure on this outing? :big: You must have a decently supplied hobby center, everytime I go in to the place close by they are out of what I need or they have one and I need three of an item, etc. There is one store in NW Chicago that has been there for years on end and have everything known to man on the shelves. I know what you mean about spending the $$$$ in those places, I have the same problem in the metal supply places.

BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I also got the clay...anybody feel a need to recommend green, red, yellow, or blue? ;D



Whatever.. Long as it matches the M&Ms!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer. I'm (re)making two steam domes tonight. (That's right...two. Just in case.) I'll try one with the brass tubing I got (for the experimentation.) If that doesn't work (experiment fails) then I'll try re-using the copper tubes.

Darn it Jim. I talked about the wine store but clean forgot! I was so hoping for the tubing. I was also distracted by the adjoining grocery store and went to pick up a bread pan to hold oil. I want to blacken my machinist clamp and I don't think I want to use the ceramic pot I had. I was surprised how warm/hot it got when I blackened those half joints I did some months ago.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Whatever.. Long as it matches the M&Ms!



That constitutes a recommendation. ;D Thanks!


----------



## T70MkIII

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Yes but how many boxes of wine did you procure on this outing? :big: You must have a decently supplied hobby center, everytime I go in to the place close by they are out of what I need or they have one and I need three of an item, etc.



The trick, clearly, is to procure wine prior to visiting a hardware store. Share with proprietor. You should soon find a noticable improvement in inventory 

Forgetting the wine in favour of engineering supplies, Zee? Perhaps evidence of a shift in priorities. Moi? I'd still be getting the wine first, but I haven't started building an engine yet...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

T70MkIII  said:
			
		

> Forgetting the wine in favour of engineering supplies, Zee? Perhaps evidence of a shift in priorities.



Very dangerous. The priority is her. If I run out of wine...there will be no machining. Luckily I had stocked up a few days ago.

----------------------------------------------

Turned down the flamethrower ;D and soldered the brass tube to the steam dome. Then heated up the tubing and dunked it in water.
Then put it in the mill, eye-balled the 1/4" end mill and milled out the tube.
Then bent it in the jig.

It seems to have worked. As you would suspect, it was harder to bend than the copper...but it did. I don't know how well the solder joint is but it looks like the solder made it from the inside to the outside.

No pics right now...upon successful trimming and setup for the final soldering...I'll get one in.

Ah...being called up to dinner...she wants me to bring up the wine...
What happened to the wine?
Where the heck is the wine?
I'm dead.


----------



## mklotz

French horns are visible proof that brass tubing can be bent. I'm glad to hear that it went well. You deserve to have something go well.

A nice Cabernet on Bastille Day sounds appealing. I must look into that since tonight is our night to eat out.   A votre sante.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Finally found the wine. I survive.

-----------------------------------

Thanks for the toast Marv.

Prost!

French horns. One of my favorite instruments. My Dad played it in the army band. Lots and lots of memories.

Happy Bastille Day from me too!

------------------------------------

You all might remember my recent trip to get a bread pan for oil. The reason was to blacken my machinist clamp that I made early last year. It was perhaps my 3rd or 4th project and I'm somewhat proud of it. It looks 'good' but it wasn't good machining...it was good elbow grease and lots of sandpaper.

Anyway...here it is...







And then blackened...






And here it is put together with a shot of the steam dome with tubing...






I left the tubes extra long. I figure I'll assemble what I can and see where I need to make the cuts.

Two more solder joints!!!

I still need to figure out how to pressure test the boiler...but I've been getting some help from a forum member and I have some ideas.

---------------------------------------

So what's for dinner Marv?


----------



## bearcar1

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Very dangerous. The priority is her. If I run out of wine........



Sure. Sure. Get her good and liquored up *beer* so you can sneak off and play. Nice guy. : ;D


Hey, it worked on my wife on many occasion, well done.  Thm: :bow: :big:



Stop 'looking' at me like that Zeep, *knuppel2* you're making me nervous. 


BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Sure. Sure. Get her good and liquored upso you can sneak off and play.


Uh no. At my age...I ain't sneaking off.



			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Stop 'looking' at me like that Zeep, you're making me nervous.



What? Are you pretty? At my age...


----------



## bearcar1

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> What? Are you pretty? At my age...




What, Me? Naw.... I'm just a pig's end. At least that's what they say, or was it a horse's arse? I dunno, you're right, at my age it really doesn't matter anymore :big:


BC1
Jim


----------



## larry1

ZEE,  I have always though that your work looked the best. Really like your clamps, Imade some but they were destroyed in a very hot fire, several years ago. Anyhow I like to see your posts, and see. your work.  Larry1; southeastern Kansas; USA


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow. Thanks larry1. Very much appreciated.

Now if I can make things fit better... :big:


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Yes, Zee...I agree with larry1 (larry2's brother, I think). You've been pretty hard at it learning this stuff and it shows in your work, so before long you're going to have to shed that "newbie" label, dude. If you were on a crab boat, we'd be moving you from baiting the pots to crab sorting. 

-Trout


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks very much Dennis.

Any advice I can give is limited to 'what not to do' and much of what I know is 'book learned'.


For now I'll keep that newbie security blanket. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I met Dave (dreeves) today for lunch. Real nice guy.

He picked the place to meet...West Chester Diner...one of my favorite places for breakfast any time of the day. So I knew he'd be a good guy to know.

Unfortunately, he has some things to learn...he had a burger. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I got a little packet of 'fire proof fabric' from Dean yesterday.
Thank you so much Dean.

This will (should) let me solder the steam tubes to the port blocks while they're on the engine without discoloring the frame.

If it doesn't work...I can blame Dean. Wrongfully it is true...but I have enough blame to share. :big:


----------



## kvom

A 45 page thread and you're not done yet?  ???



J/K ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kvom  said:
			
		

> A 45 page thread and you're not done yet?



Sad isn't it? :big:

Sure...there's my posts...but let us consider the quantity, nay, the quality of the various responses. ;D

But it's all part of the plan...people will see a grand beginning and, hopefully, a grand ending...and won't bother with all the crap in-between. :big:

Speaking of endings...I'm afraid to say it's still a bit way off...

Here's comes yet another post...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

As I just mentioned...I'm a way off from getting this done.
Anyone want to predict the final page number? :big:

I put it together to see how it looks so far. You can see I played with the front end sheet a little. It cleaned up decently. But I haven't pressure tested yet so there's little point in doing more right now.

I've also come across several issues that could give me some serious grief...






Nothing turns easily. Several very tight spots.

I pressed the drive pins into the drive wheels. One isn't perfectly square but a little tapping seemed to help. Still, it's going to be a problem.

I press fitted the cylinder covers. This is a real problem. While the pistons slid very nicely, as soon as I did fitted the covers, it's tight to the point you can hardly move the piston rods. Certainly this means the hole in the cover is not true to the cylinder. Some fiddling has loosened things up but it's still real bad.

There is a stretcher that goes inside the frame between the two porting blocks. I apparently did not tap it deep enough and the pivot pins don't screw in well enough. That should be easy enough to fix...even if I have to redo the stretcher.

You can see how the fuel tank doesn mate with the tab. That's because the funnel fell in. The tank is pretty tight so I'll just open the tab.

The boiler is a bit higher at the front...but that's not a real issue. Just looks odd.

I'm hoping to solder on the steam tubes to the ports tomorrow. The ports are at a fixed angle due to a pin that fits to the frame. I should just have to remove the cylinders, bend the tubing to the port, mark it for cutting, and be good to go. He said. The idea is to replace that green gasket with the fire blocker stuff that Dean gave me and go at it. I hope you have more flamethrower pictures Marv.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee,I'm not trying to tell my granny how to suck eggs but just thinking it may be better to rework the tight spots before the pipe work is all soldered up.
regards Frazer


----------



## Deanofid

I think Frazer has a good point, Zee. Egg suckin' or not.

I'll bet, (and hope) that the crooked drive pin has something to do with the troubles. Every
time it goes 'round it's going to try to push the con rod sideways in the cylinder bore bushing.
Really, I think you already know what your other problem is, too, with the pistons getting tight
after pressing in the cyl covers.

You're a hand at this now, Zee. You know how it is with all the fiddling at the end of a build.
I know you'll get it. 

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer. Yes I'll be working things out more before soldering although I don't know how the steam tubes being soldered would make a difference. They're soldered to he ports and can be removed from the boiler. None of the tightness (that I can tell) is associated with them.

The worst tightness is between the piston rod and cylinder cover, there's some between the piston and cylinder, and there's some either between the drive wheel axle and bushings or the drive wheels and the axle. All of which can be removed and fiddled with.

There's also a big difference depending on the angle (rotation) of the piston rod and cylinder.

The biggest problem is the fact that the cylinder covers aren't true. I think the problem goes back to my tailstock not being true. That is, I think the cylinder covers are probably right...it's the cylinders that are wrong...deeper bore and all that.

Thanks Dean. Jury is out on the crooked drive pin. I did straighten it some but it's hard at this point to say how much (if any) it contributes.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Zee, keep in mind Trout's First Postulate as posted in Trout Learns a Thing or Two:

_When it comes to finding out which part is making the mechanism stick, Occam's Razor principle (the simplest solution is usually the correct one) almost never applies to model engine making. In other words, the hole you open up to relieve stress is not what was causing the stress.
_

 :shrug:

-T


----------



## mklotz

I'm with Dean - fix the drive pin first. Otherwise you've got two competing sources of error and you'll be chasing your tail trying to get them both fixed simultaneously. At worst, you can drill out the existing pins and make new pins to fit the existing holes. If the holes are munged, drill them out slightly larger, ream, and then make a pin to fit the hole. Turn down the projecting part of the pin to fit the connecting rod. Rather than pressing them in I'd use Loctite - pressing straight is harder than it looks.

Next step is to get the cylinder pivot pins sorted. That sounds relatively straightforward and I think you grok how to do it.

If the cylinders are single acting (don't remember) you may be able to remove piston/crod and drill the hole at the bottom of the cylinder slightly larger to accommodate the misalignment of the "cylinder covers" (sorry, don't know that term - I presume it refers to the cylindrical thing sticking out the bottom of the cylinder). Maybe a CoC of the cylinder assembly is in order. I'm beginning to feel as if I don't understand the geometry.

Don't lose heart now. You're soooo close. And, remember, this is the satisfaction of a childhood fantasy. Once it's running you'll feel a twitch of pleasure every time you walk by it.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> (the simplest solution is usually the correct one) almost never applies to model engine making. In other words, the hole you open up to relieve stress is not what was causing the stress.



Oh so many similar rules...

It's never so easy as it looks...
It's never what you first think it is...

I've (almost) developed the habit at work of saying "I know what it is" when a bug is discovered just to get the first round of "It wasn't that" out of the way. :big:

Thanks Marv.

There's really two engines here. The left side and the right side. The crooked crank pin is on one side. (Although I can't tell that's it crooked anymore.) So I can go ahead an play around with the other side. You and Dean are right...if the crank pin is a problem, it needs to be fixed before I can hope to fix the issues with the cylinder.

I tried drawing a CoC of the cylinder...but it's worse than the actual cylinder. (Maybe cause it's late for me...and we've been celebrating T's birthday.) Just look at the pic. The piston rod goes through a cylinder cover to the piston. If the hole in the cover isn't true to the hole in the piston and cylinder then as the piston moves back and forth, the rod will want to move from center.

All I can do at this point (I think) is keep fiddling and playing in hopes that it 'works itself in'. Failing that then I'm reworking the cylinder assembly.

This generated some discussion earlier with T. Whether to switch to more accurate machines (I'm thinking Sherline) or get better at adjusting/fixing/learning my current machines. The plan is to stay the course.

It's worthwhile learning how to fix, adjust, and learn from my machines. And she said no anyway. ;D


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I still need to figure out how to pressure test the boiler...but I've been getting some help from a forum member and I have some ideas.
> 
> ---------------------------------------



Zee

I use one of these. 






Its a mountain bike shock pump which goes to 300psi. $20 on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mountain-Bike-High-Pressure-Fork-Shock-Pump-w-Gauge-/230488288176?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35aa2c2bb0

You'll need to make an adapter with a schrader valve (from an old MTB inner tube) It has to be used with full of water but you'll have seen the threads on that. I fill the boiler with water, screw in the valve adapter unscrew the pump handle and piston and fill it with water insert the piston and pressurize the boiler. It has non return valves so if you aren't up to you test pressure remove the piston top up and do another stroke.






Of course you only be using it to about 50psi I'd imagine otherwise you'll be starting again...

Pete


----------



## bearcar1

Zeep', all of this time I thought that you did have Sherline machines. I remember the thread about you setting up your work space and for some reason had it in my mind that you had bought Sherline equipment. What is it that you are operating? It can't be too out of whack. Although, now that I begin to actually think about it, The tailstock of the Sherline's provide no means of off-setting the ram, it remains fixed. I had the same problem you encountered when I first got my SB, it took me some fiddling around for a couple of sessions before I finally got the beast dialed in and I still have to tweak it every once in a while. New machines!! Man oh man! Now "T" is a keeper for certain. :bow: Maybe you could get her another box of wine and she would allow you to purchase the CNC set up, wouldn't that be a gas!


BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Pete. The request has been put in. (Please T? Please?)

MTB = mountain bike. So maybe I can get some valves at the bike shop near here.

I knew about filling the boiler with water. I'm glad you mentioned filling the pump with water as well. I suspect there's still some air in it but with your setup the air would remain in the pump. Am I right?

Jim...

I have a 7x12 (5278) Mini-Lathe from ToolsNow and a Mini-Mill (44991) from Harbor Freight.

I think the issue with the lathe is that the tailstock sits a tad high. And I can't shim the headstock. For lack of experience (knowledge) and not being sure whether that's the problem, I haven't tried to fix it yet. As I get to know the machines more, I'm more able to make modifications. I've run across some threads/sites that talk about this.

I'm not suggesting that by moving to Sherlines I can avoid these kinds of problems. When I started this hobby I was unsure that it was for me, that I would continue, and if I did, what I wanted to do in the future.

Well I am going to continue...and I want better equipment...and I don't think I need bigger. ;D

As for 'T'...she's certainly a keeper. But the price in honey-dos to support my hobby can sometimes be quite high. I like to think she doesn't use the fact that she's a keeper against me...but then I'm an idiot. She often tells me so. :big:


----------



## deere_x475guy

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> You all might remember my recent trip to get a bread pan for oil. The reason was to blacken my machinist clamp that I made early last year. It was perhaps my 3rd or 4th project and I'm somewhat proud of it. It looks 'good' but it wasn't good machining...it was good elbow grease and lots of sandpaper.
> 
> Anyway...here it is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then blackened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is put together with a shot of the steam dome with tubing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I left the tubes extra long. I figure I'll assemble what I can and see where I need to make the cuts.
> 
> Two more solder joints!!!
> 
> I still need to figure out how to pressure test the boiler...but I've been getting some help from a forum member and I have some ideas.
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> So what's for dinner Marv?



Zee, I have been following your build on this and am very impressed. Nice job so far. Also...in regards to your blacking, I haven't tried this yet....but...I need to do some of the parts on the macro focusing rail....I have just about completed all the anodizing and should have it warped up today....thanks for posting your blacking pics...they look great.


----------



## ozzie46

Zee: Have a look at this, 

http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/tailstock-modifications.html 

 it may explain your tail stock woes.

  Lots of good info on this site. These lathes are all about the same just badged with different names.


  I know when I drilled with mine I could visibly see the tailstock ram lift up.
 Can't drill concentric holes that way.

  Ron


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee,My train of thinking was that without the pipes soldered in you can work on each side seperatly.As you already mentioned a bit like two seperate engines but not being familare with the model not sure.Am I right in thinking its a single acting cylinder but there is a guide bush fitted at the bottom of the cylinder ?
best wishes Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the link Ron. Very helpful information there.

Frazer...yes. I've been calling it a guide bush. You can see the finished example of the loco at the beginning of the thread.

The following picture should help show why I don't think soldering the port blocks matters whether the cylinders are tight. (Although I've gotten things loosened up a lot more now.) The pivot pin would go through the cylinder, through the port block, and into the stretcher. (I need to retap or remake the stretcher.)






The white sheets is the stuff that Dean was kind enough to give me. Hopefully it'll help prevent the frame from getting discolored.

See that gap between the tube and the hole in the port block? I worry about that.

You'll also notice the gasket at the steam dome. I wondered whether I should leave that or not. But I have spare and wanted to keep the spacing right.

Well folks...I'm about to do the last first time machining/soldering operation. Soldering the tubes to the port blocks. If this goes awry...it's new port blocks and the thingie that everyone here is telling me looks like a part to a lampshade. :big:

Wish me luck.


----------



## fcheslop

Thanks Zee the penny has dropped.The pipes loose in the cylinder could they be expanded with a tapered mandrel
regards


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Frazer. I thought about expanding the tube but didn't have a tapered mandrel. It didn't dawn on me until later that I should be able to make one.

In any case, I think I was successful. I think.






The frame got scorched but I think it's from the fabric. I expect (hope) it will clean up just fine.

The porting blocks look bad and fuzzy but that's because the fabric stuck to it and is torn up. I'm going to put it in the pickle and see how it cleans up. So far it looks good.

I am concerned about the pivot pins. They got pretty scorched and were difficult to get out of the porting blocks. Can those be pickled? I've only seen copper and brass get pickled. If not then I'll clean them up with some paper as best I can. I can always remake them.

So far so good. He said.


----------



## Deanofid

Shoot. I sure wasn't expecting that brown stuff from the fabric, Zee. Like you said, blame Dean!

You can put the pivot pins in the pickle for a while. Wash them after about an hour and dry well. They
may flash rust, but that will go away with light oiling. 
Some say that putting steel and copper alloys in the same pickle is not good. I don't know why,
and do it as needed without ill effects.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. No blame to you...I'm quite happy with the results...thanks again for the help.

I'll try pickling the pivot pins. Worse thing that can happen is to remake them.

I'd wondered cause I saw what happened to some aluminum that was pickled when I was doing the boiler...the aluminum looks pretty badly etched. No problem for this because the aluminum part is only used for testing the boiler.

I suspect the brown stuff is a combination of oil and fabric. I'd kept the frames lightly oiled so they wouldn't rust.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, another step foreward she will clean up OK.Not far to go?
all the best


----------



## zeeprogrammer

fcheslop  said:
			
		

> Hi Zee, another step foreward she will clean up OK.



Thanks Frazer. Yeah...it does seem to be cleaning up okay. Here's where I'm at so far...






I'm still working on the boiler but I'm happy with it even now. I'm a little worried about that pitting in the steam tube (to the left of the upper port block). But I think it's going to be okay.

I did some water tests and all the holes are still clear!

The picture actually makes it look better than it is. I'll have to remember than...learn the de-focus setting on the camera. :big:

Haven't worked on the frames yet...but I'm sure they'll be fine.



			
				fcheslop  said:
			
		

> Not far to go?



Yeah...I'm afraid there's still a ways to go. After all...I need to get to page 100 and keep kvom happy... :big:

'T' ordered the pump that Ron mentioned. (Thanks Ron...er..I mean...thanks T...I mean Ron...ah..you understand don't you Ron?)

But it sure is starting to get exciting!!!

I don't have track to run the thing on...so I need to make up a stand with idlers. I'm looking forward to that actually. The downside is my folks are coming to visit this week...and then I'm on vacation (doing T's bidding). The upside is...my folks are coming to visit this week...and then I'm on vacation (doing T's bidding). :big: :big:

This was a great weekend. Thanks guys.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Not that this weekend doesn't have its bummers...

Anyone thinking they can make this loco look like the model in the first post...and have it run...think again. Certainly not if they've only built 3 or 4 engines in their life.

And no way you can apply heat to melt solder (hard or soft) and have it look like that. I consider that false advertising.

The kit comes with small screws for which I bought Acu-Min 58-0150 drivers. They don't fit. I don't know if it's the screws (did they get a deal on them?) or the drivers (shoddy quality).

Anyway...still at it. grumble mumble grumble


----------



## zeeprogrammer

IT'S NOT DONE!!! But I wanted to share some pictures of the loco put together after cleaning up a bit. It's going to be a while before I can get back to it.






I'm kind of pleased with the boiler and the front end. Looks good. We'll see if it runs.
Here's another shot from the side.






The above is the 'good side'. The other side looks similar except for a blob/glob/dribble of solder going down the side from the rear bushing.

Again, the pics don't do it justice. It looks worse that it does in the pics. Quite the opposite effect when looking at pics of me. ;D

At least I can show it off to the folks and friends at work.


----------



## cfellows

I think it's looking pretty sweet, Zee. I know it's been a bit of a tough haul for you, but the results are sure pleasing!

Chuck


----------



## ozzie46

Uuuhhh, Can't take credit for the pump Zee.

  That was Pete AKA doubletop.

  Ron


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Chuck.

Ron...thanks. You're right. Sorry Pete. Both you guys gave me good help and I got confused.

Hee hee. I'd emailed the pump link to 'T'. She likes to do the eBay thing. I went upstairs later and started to ask 'T' if she'd seen my email...but before I could finish the sentence she said "yeah yeah..I ordered it".

I don't ask myself why I've been married 34 years. I'm a lucky ____ (fill in the blank).


----------



## larry1

Zee, Really a great looking locomotive, I have really enjoyed this post, even if you don't make a 100, it has been a great ride. larry1


----------



## Deanofid

Oh! It looks like it cleaned up very nicely, really. Bravo, I say!

And, nearly 700 posts. Whew! Dash the page count.

Dean


----------



## Troutsqueezer

So nice...so very nice. I'd be popping buttons if it was mine. 

I remember, Zee, when I was approaching done-ness on my Trout's Twin, you were the first one to ask me, "what's next?"....well....what's next? ;D

-Trout


----------



## TroyO

What an astounding thread! Thank you, Zee for letting me "Look over your shoulder" at the whole process. I ended up reading through all 700-ish posts in one shot I was so hooked.

I learned a lot I hope to remember.... and a few things I hope to unlearn. (Tutu?)

I guess as someone who goes to the RenFaire in a traditional kilt I can't say much. ;-)

Anyway... looks good! (The engine.... not the tutu... tho I'm sure you have great legs! ;-)


----------



## Deanofid

The Tutu! Heh, that was a while back. No one's going to forget, Zee.

Dean


----------



## metalmuncher

Hi Zee, Its been a long haul for you but its nice to see it finished, though I think it would have been easier having a baby lol. I have put this on my to do list but it will be a long while before it gets done, I have a big ossilater to build after I get done with my currant build. All the best mate you crack me up with some of the stuff you write, do you wear the tutu when you are machining? Regards Keith.


----------



## doubletop

Zee

It looks great, I don't know why you were so worried. 

Burners can be a real pain so if you haven't got the pump yet and you haven't tried it remove the steam dome or pop out the pistons and try out the burner to see it at least boils the water. 

Then get it pressure tested and show us the video of it running. You know that's the only reason we've worked through 46 pages of posts with you.

Pete


----------



## seagar

Zee I think it looks great and thanks for the ride along the build track. :bow:

Ian (seagar).


----------



## bearcar1

The awaiting of your test pump to arrive will give you plenty of time to put together another one of your unique happy dances as well ;D I take my hat off to you Z', for your ever present tenacity and fortitude to continue blazing through unforeseen obstacles and to get back up in the saddle and try again (and again?) until success is achieved. BRAVO!! I think your loco is quite charming despite what you may feel are warts, but that is what gives it the character and appeal magnetism. It draws on the memories of our childhood and returns us back to that time once again, so joyous and yet just out of reach. Your house guests will be thrilled to be a witness to all of your hard work and I am confident that the first steaming will be a success for you. Well done indeed. :bow:

BC1
Jim


----------



## arnoldb

Carl, it looks very nice Thm: - congratulations!

I can't wait to see you fire it up; that first live steam run is as much a buzz as getting the first engine built 

Regards, Arnold


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hey thanks everyone.
Like I said...it's NOT done. It needs to run and I need to put together a video.
It'll be a while though. Folks visiting, vacation, and then I'm expecting a business trip to Mexico.

Thanks larry1.

Thanks Dean. Yeah I'm pretty pleased how it came out.

Thanks Dennis (Trout). I don't know what's next...got some ideas though. Marine engine with boiler and a boat. Probably too much to chew but I can't get it out of my head. I'll probably do something else first though.

Thanks TroyO. I really appreciate that.

Thanks metalmuncher. No I don't wear the tutu when I'm in the shop. It would get ruined.

Thanks Pete. Nice idea. I'll see if I can get some fuel and try it out.

Thanks Ian.

Thanks Jim. I'll try my best for a satisfying dance. (No I won't.)

Thanks Arnold.

I took the engine to work today. People were suitably impressed.
Or good liars. :big:

I hope I thanked everyone by name...if I missed someone...it's my mistake.


----------



## putputman

Carl, that is a piece of work to really be proud of. It is a terrific feeling when you finally put all the little pieces together and you end up with something as nice as that locomotive. Congratulations. :bow: :bow: :bow:


----------



## tmuir

Great work Zee.

Now we want to see a video of it steaming down a trak.


----------



## deere_x475guy

Carl, your humor and writing style has always kept me both interested and amused...... I think you should compile your project posts someday and publish a bedside reader.....It will put on smile on anyones face.!!...Nice looking loco....really nice.


----------



## joe d

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> Carl, your humor and writing style has always kept me both interested and amused...... I think you should compile your project posts someday and publish a bedside reader.....It will put on smile on anyones face.!!...Nice looking loco....really nice.



Whilst in agreement with the basic sentiments expressed here, I think Zee would have to edit out the bits about his tutu or the book would be on the naughty shelves of the bookstore.... ;D ;D

This project IS looking good, Zee, I've been enjoying following along.

Cheers, Joe


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, Great job on this entire process. Your openness on this forum is very admirable and the reward has been sweet indeed. You have accomplished everything needed to complete this project and your first try at silver soldering went great. Everything cleaned up real purdy like. You should be very proud.

And WOW!! 1st and 2nd most replied too topics, and by a landslide I might add.

Wait, upon further research, number 8 too!!

Aren't we the popular one :big: :big:

I'm a stickler for stats.

Once again, Well done and congratulations on a great build.

Kel


----------



## T70MkIII

Good job, Zee - a really nice looking locomotive.

So, carriages next? Kaboose, Kimosabe?


----------



## IronHorse

I used the alternate method of testing the boiler from the article "Testing Model Boilers" and it worked very good. Basically you plug all the holes, attach a pressure gauge and fill it completely with water and make sure there is no air inside. Heat the boiler slowly with a propane torch on low heat. It will take a few minuit's and the pressure will start to rise. Continue to slowly heat and watch the gauge until you reach the test pressure. I did it this way because I broke my pump testing my last boiler  It sounds a bit scary, but I think it is as safe as using a pump.

IronHorse


----------



## b.lindsey

You've made a lot of progress Zee and it all looks great. Have a great vacation and visit with the relatives. Since I'm going to be gone for a bit too, maybe I won't miss too much.

Bill


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, That is one fine loco looking foreward to video.Iv enjoyed reading the posts and have enjoyed your style of writting and openness when the going became challenging :bow:
Now the big question WHATS NEXT
Best wishes Frazer


----------



## Kermit

Yes yes. What's next? 
 :bow:


I need something new to check in on everyday since I'm not making anything but dirty dishes and dirty clothes at the moment.  ;D
Kermit


----------



## Philjoe5

Congratulations Zee. You suffered through all the obstacles to get there - lesser men would have quit :bow:

Looking forward to the video

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks putputman.
Thanks tmuir.
Thanks Bob. A bedside reader eh? Yeah I can put them to sleep.
Thanks Joe. Edit the tutu? No...must always remain true to oneself.
Thanks Kel. It's very easy to get a large number of replies on this forum...you can either ask for help...or do something that offends the nature of the machinist.
Thanks Ironhorse. That seems a workable way. Especially once I get some pressure gauges. I really want to build firebird's water pump.
Thanks Bill.
Thanks Frazer. Don't know.
Thanks Kermit. Don't know! Sheesh.
Thanks Phil. Can't quit. Put a lot of money into this the last year. She'd kill me.

I got the pump that Pete suggested. At first I was a bit wary. For one thing the price seemed too low. $18. For another, there's no a label/etching/sticker anywhere on it indicating 'Made in ...'.

But I tried it on my bike and it did pump it up. I was real surprised. At first I couldn't tell it was doing anything...pumping away provided no/little resistance. Then I felt the tire. Nearly hard as a rock. A few more pumps and I could see the pressure gauge had definitely moved. I stopped at about 30psi.

Then I read the instructions...an excerpt...

"6. It may be heard leaking sound when unscrew. but it wasn't leak from shock. All the leaking air is come from hose area."

Okay. Now I know where it was made. I've never understood why they don't just hire a native English speaking person to write the documentation. I'd be happy to be hired for that and spend a little time over there.

No slight on the manufacturer. I see lots of references to the makers of our mini-lathes etc but they're catching up fast. Remember the first transistor radios from Japan? Junk. You can't say that now.

Now that I think about it...I can hand that instruction to the doctor the next time I see her. :big:

Here's another excerpt...

"4. Non-scratch rubber sealing system."

I don't like rubber that scratches.


----------



## bearcar1

Oooooo! a latex fetish as well ;D ;D ;D you dog.


BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Oooooo! a latex fetish as well



 Rof} Rof}

But you're wrong. ;D
Mostly.

Sheesh...slow down at all on this forum...and threads can take a completely different road.


----------



## Deanofid

> It may be heard leaking sound when unscrew.



I remember things like this from Japan. I had a motorcycle once, long ago. The owner's manual
was some of the best comedy I've ever read. It had a caution in the event you passed a pedestrian;
"Tootle the horn melodiously and yell the warning: Hoi! Hoi!"
And on a gas powered saw; "Do not pull the cord to terminal".
I guess they wanted you to stay away from airports.


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I got the pump that Pete suggested. At first I was a bit wary. For one thing the price seemed too low. $18. For another, there's no a label/etching/sticker anywhere on it indicating 'Made in ...'.
> 
> But I tried it on my bike and it did pump it up. I was real surprised. At first I couldn't tell it was doing anything...pumping away provided no/little resistance. Then I felt the tire. Nearly hard as a rock. A few more pumps and I could see the pressure gauge had definitely moved. I stopped at about 30psi.
> 
> Then I read the instructions...an excerpt...



Zee

These pumps are not for pumping up tyres they are high pressure pumps for the air suspension shocks that take 100-250psi. It would take you a week to pump up a tyre from flat. But you'd get there eventually. Take your 2" mountain bike tyre to 80psi and you'd have a seriously loud bang at some point.

Be careful doing your boiler don't ram the piston in hard, with no leaks you'll be at 100psi before the end of the stroke and your little boiler will look like The Fat Controller 

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Pete.

That explains things. I didn't know about the shock absorbers.

I was testing the tire tube frequently...I remember a blow-out when I was a kid. Took my bike (bicycle) to a service station, aired up, drove a couple miles back home, got off the bike, took 3 steps, then blammey.


----------



## TroyO

Hehe, the best instruction manual "Gotchya" I ever ran across was American, and intentional.

It was a universal battery charger for Nic-Cad/Nimh cells (For Radio Control) and buried toward the end was this nugget of information: (Slightly paraphrased... my memory isn't that good, LOL).

"Reverse polarity: If you reverse the polarity of the connection it will reverse the flow of space time, resulting in the destabilization of the universe as we know it and destroying all life on earth. It will be all your fault."


----------



## Deanofid

Well then, we'd all better make sure we have our towels with us. Someone is bound
to try that!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Got a question.
You can think of this as my usual blatant way to keep my thread afloat.

I have some old bicycle tires. Any reason why I can't pull a Schrader valve out of one and use it to for pressure testing? (This newbie assumes it's a Schrader valve.)

What is the thread on it?

I'm sure that testing to 30 psi should be no problem but what is the limit? Are all same-sized Schrader valves equivalent when it comes to that?

Thanks.


----------



## PaulG

Internal thread (to accept the threaded valve core)

  * Metric: 5.30 mm OD x 0.706 mm pitch
  * Imperial: 0.209 in OD x 36 tpi.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Zee, why not remove the valve assembly from the tube complet and solder it to an adapter to fit the safety valve bush.
regards frazer


----------



## Deanofid

Or, go to a tire store that does truck service and buy a brass valve stem for big truck wheels.
You can cut off part of the brass stem (they are about 3" long) and solder it to an adapter that 
will screw into the threads for one of the top bushings.
If you do that, take the valve out of the stem before you solder. There are often plastic parts in the
valve.

You have plenty of pressure leeway with Schrader valves. Some tires take 120 psi, or more.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks PaulG, frazer, and Dean.

More soldering eh? Ah hahahahahahahahaha.

Actually, I didn't think you could do that. The stems on my bicycle tires are encased in rubber (if I remember correctly). I didn't know you can get something else.

Sounds like a trip to auto parts store is in the making.

Thanks again.


----------



## Deanofid

Something like this, Zee. For truck tires. Most car tire types are rubber, or chromed for fancy
wheels.





(Photo credit Tiger Sourcing Parts.)

You should have no trouble if you just want to use regular solder for this.

Dean


----------



## doubletop

I would have thought that the barrel from a bike or car tube woud do. Hack the rubber off, clean up with a wire brush and you'll find brass underneath. Remove the valve and solder into a bush. And replace valve prior to use.

Pete


----------



## TroyO

Dean, LOL... I always have my towel. Well, almost always... I forgot it this morning because my brain felt oddly like it had been smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

Zee.... so when does construction start on the life size locomotive? I went back and read the first two threads in the "series" and found them every bit as educational and entertaining. Not to repeat anyones earlier mistakes, I owe you A beer if ever we meet. :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Something like this, Zee. For truck tires. Most car tire types are rubber, or chromed for fancy wheels.



Oh har. Oh har de har har. Prior to seeing your post Dean, I went to Pep boys today (mainly to get away from work). They had a valve stem encased in rubber...and a valve chromed for fancy wheels. Darn it. $5.99 for chrome. $2.99 for rubber. The guy said there was metal under the rubber. I'm thinking "Can't I get that off? I got a lathe gosh durn it." So I went for the $2.99. I have no idea if this will work.

Like Pete said. I'll try hacking it off. Well we'll see.

The folks just left but I'm off to California this Friday (pleasure) and then probably Mexico (business...well pleasure too). Not much in the way of machining time. As it is...I see that I fell behind by more than 100 posts.

My folks...he's 84 and she's 82. They still bowl in the leagues...and go to state championships. I wish I hadn't smoked and drank as much as I did. (No I don't.)

TroyO...thank you so much. That means a lot to me. And since you confess to having read my other threads...you know I will hold you to that beer....where-ever you are. Just where are you?

............

So as I said...off to CA. Napa...San Fran...Sonoma...Carmel. Anything 'home machinist' related close by? Not that it helps...I'm going to be with family...they have their own plans. Wine, trees, wine, museums, wine, restaurants, wine...hm...maybe I won't miss machining as much as I think.


----------



## larry1

Zee, Have a great time in Calif. really sounds like you know how enjoy Calif.anyway lots of luck. larry


----------



## Deanofid

There is metal under that rubber, Zee. It's vulcanized on.  I'm sure you can get it off, but I'd just get
a brass one so you can spend more time working on your engine instead of working on valve stems.
If you want to mess with the rubber one by turning it down, cut off all you can with a knife, then freeze
it before turning. Abrasives might be easier.
Brass valve stem easier yet.

Have a great time going places and goofing off!

Dean


----------



## walnotr

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> So as I said...off to CA. Napa...San Fran...Sonoma...Carmel.



The Monterey Aquarium is worth going to. Carmel is just a few miles down Highway 1. Well worth the visit if you like fish and other aquatic animals. If you pass through Pacific Grove wave to my grandkids as you pass by. 

Steve C.


----------



## TroyO

I'm in Denver, CO. Known as a Cow town and for skiing..... hmmm, I don't ski, or have a particular fondness for cows (Except on a plate... med-rare, thank you. I love food that used to Moo.) 

So I'm not real sure WHY I'm in Denver.... but there I be, anyway. ;-P


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Larry.
Thanks Dean. You can bet I'm going to keep an eye peeled for machining goodies...where-ever I go.
Thanks Steve. I'll be sure to wave.

TroyO...Denver eh? Then you're well within reach. Moo, Cluck, Oink...I'll eat it. No Woof or Meow. It has to make a noise though...fish is not my favorite...well except for Shrimp. Love shrimp. We'll discuss brand of beer once you serve it. ;D

And yeah everybody...I know shrimp is not a fish. Sheesh. I meant seafood. Ha! I bet more than one of you started to reply before you read this last sentence. Eh Marv? :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Shrimp make noise. So do lobster & crab. I just can't hold my breath long enough to make
out what they're saying. Something about "butter".


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> CA. Napa...San Fran...



If you hit SF, only thing worth doing that's not tourist trap related is walk across the Golden Gate Bridge. If ya like Artichokes bout 20 miles south of SF is Half Moon Bay, where I grew up. Nice 30 years ago, too darn busy now-a-days.

Have fun on yer trip, 'member CA has a 10 percent state income tax, nice place to visit but nada to live.

Robert


----------



## Kermit

I'm not able to recall the street, but downtown SanFran, many moons ago, I visited a place called Rooks and Becords. I went for to find me some nice music on vinyl, but they have lots of books there as well. If you get the chance to stop in, I'm betting you might find something worthwhile in the book section. Google can get you the street address.

Have fun Zee,
Kermit

P.S. There was a nice Pub a few doors down as well--in case you need further enticement.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean...I knew I'd get another opportunity to say 'sheesh'. :big:
Thanks Robert. 10%! 'T' is interested in moving to CA. This might dampen that a bit.
Thanks Kermit. If we get downtown...I'll look for it.

Hopefully I can pop in the forum once in a while...that should help 'shop withdrawal'.

I'll soak a little comfy rag with WD-40 so I can hold it to my nose while I suck my thumb.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Just a quick note..but wanted to thank Steve C for the suggestion on Monterey Bay Aquarium. Everyone enjoyed it. Even the 11 month old Sydney. And yes...I did wave to your grandkids. I could swear they waved back. ;D

Having a good time. The down side is my back went out just prior to the trip. Upside is I have a wonderful excuse for pain killer (wine) and no one is denying me...that.

The other downside is I haven't been able to keep up with the forum...I'm missing a lot and very sorry for that.

But the wine helps me forget. :big:


----------



## walnotr

Glad you enjoyed the aquarium. There are so many things to see. Too bad the BIG sunfish died before you got there. I swear it was almost the size of a bus! Only the little one now. It's only about as big as a Volkswagen.  :big:

Thanks for giving the grandkids a wave. They probably were wondering who that strange programmer was.

Steve C.


----------



## xo18thfa

Very nice work Zee. You should be proud. It's an heirloom piece.

It's not a "toy", it's a live steam locomotive.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Zee--I took time this morning to read through your entire thread. I am impressed!!! To paraphrase someone else, "You've come a long way, baby!!!!"---Great work.----Brian


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob.

Brian! That really means a lot to me. Thank you! Very much appreciated.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

So I got this brass valve stem while on vacation. (We were in St. Helena CA...family headed from the olive oil store...I headed for the auto parts store across the street.)

The other end of it is threaded. The package states 1/8" MNPT.

NPT = National Pipe Thread Taper
I'm thinking M is Male.


I'm thinking this is what my tap kit says is 1/8-27 or 'pipe'.

So I can then just make an adaptor and thread this thing on for the boiler pressure test.

He said.

[EDIT: Oh...drill tap size is 'Q'? 0.332"...I can't find Marv's equation.]


----------



## mklotz

You're supposed to have memorized that equation by now. You haven't been doing your homework.

Here's what you need. Copy it and put it in your notebook. It will be on the final. 




		Code:
	

PIPE THREADING DATA

S=NOMINAL PIPE SIZE (in)
T=THREADS PER INCH
D=DIAMETER (in)
TD=TAP DRILL

S		T		D		TD
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMERICAN STANDARD TAPER PIPE
1/16		27		0.3125		D
1/8		27		0.405		R
1/4		18		0.540		7/16
3/8		18		0.675		37/64
1/2		14		0.840		23/32
3/4		14		1.050		59/64
1		11.5		1.315		1-5/32
1-1/4		11.5		1.660		1-1/2
1-1/2		11.5		1.900		1-47/64
2		11.5		2.375		1-7/32
2-1/2		8		2.875		2-5/8
3		8		3.500		3-1/4
3-1/2		8		4.000		3-3/4
4		8		4.500		4-1/4
4-1/2		8		5.000		4-3/4
5		8		5.563		5-9/32
6		8		6.625		6-11/32
7		8		7.625
8		8		8.625
9		8		9.625
10		8		10.750
12		8		12.750

AMERICAN STANDARD STRAIGHT PIPE
1/8		27		0.405		S
1/4		18		0.540		29/64
3/8		18		0.675		19/32
1/2		14		0.840		47/64
3/4		14		1.050		15/16
1		11.5		1.315		1-3/16
1-1/4		11.5		1.660		1-33/64
1-1/2		11.5		1.900		1-3/4
2		11.5		2.375		2-7/32
2-1/2		8		2.875		2-21/32
3		8		3.500		3-9/32
3-1/2		8		4.000		3-25/32
4		8		4.500		4-9/32
4-1/2		8		5.000		4-25/32
5		8		5.563		5-11/32
6		8		6.625		6-13/32


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You're supposed to have memorized that equation by now. You haven't been doing your homework.



slap slap slap :big:

Interesting chart...

Taper shows 'R'.
Straight shows 'S'.

The chart I looked at on the net shows 'Q'.

I'm thinking I want straight.
And I'm thinking you always give the right answer.
So it's 'S'.

Thanks Marv. You'd make a good bad nun. ;D


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Marv...

I found your equation...

TD = MD - .013*DOT/P

MD = .405 (from the net...I measure .4)
P = 27

If I want 75% DOT then I get 0.3689...call it .368 or a 'U'.
I'm a programmer...sometimes we truncate rather than round. ;D

To use 'S' the equation gives a DOT of 118%. For 'T', 97.6%.

I drilled 'S' and when I tap, it tightens to the point I can't get more than a few threads.

From the above it would seem I should have drilled with 'U'.
I'm considering re-drilling with 'U'.

Your thoughts, comments, rulers are most welcome.


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, my chart says if it's a straight thread, the nomenclature is "NPS". For that, use an "S" drill.
Also says for NPT use "R".

If you're tapping a tapered thread, it does get tight after a few turns. Won't be like a regular tap, that 
gets easier as you tap through a piece.



> I'm thinking I want straight.



I'm thinking you want to tap it for the thread on the valve stem you got, which sounds like a taper.



> And I'm thinking you always give the right answer.



Oh... You were talking to Marv, then.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean. (Another guy always with right answers - but a softer ruler. ;D )

Then I'll leave it as is.


----------



## mklotz

> Thanks Marv. You'd make a good bad nun.



ROFL. Good one. It's nice to see that Dean, the mother superior, agrees with this novitiate.

The equation isn't really meant for pipe threads although I guess it could be used for straight pipe threads. It doesn't apply at all to tapered threads.

If memory serves the taper in tapered pipe threads is 1/16 in/in. With care you should be able to measure your part to determine if it's tapered. (I bet it is.)

This chart may help...

http://www.sizes.com/materls/pipeThrd.htm


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Dean. (Another guy always with right answers...)



Oh gosh.. Have you ever read anything I've written? 

Do I know you?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Do I know you?



Sure! You're the guy in Gobler, Missouri.....aren't you?
Or are you that guy from ID that's been a pain in my side?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

mklotz  said:
			
		

> With care you should be able to measure your part to determine if it's tapered. (I bet it is.)



No takers. I did. You're right.

Now if I can get rid of the guests...I might be able to do something around here...
like....clean cobwebs and make parts.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Guests went to bed early....

Newbie question alert! Newbie question alert!

So I made an adaptor to fit a valve stem to the boiler.
Just for fun, I attached it to the boiler, plugged things up, attached the pump, and pumped away.

I had no expectations this would work. And it didn't. Initially it wouldn't hold hardly anything. After tightening (by hand) the various joints, I could pump it to 50 psi but it would quickly leak out.

I understand I need to do this with water. And the leaks (I'm hoping) are just poor joints that should be fixable with a bit of pipe tape (teflon).

But I'm not quite sure I understand why water rather than air to test the boiler.

Certainly air is more compressible...but are there other considerations?

Having asked that...this is the mountain bike pump that was suggested earlier in the thread. If the boiler is sealed properly...what should I expect? Pump it to some pressure (e.g. 50 psi) and the gauge should sit at that? Or will the pump itself leak and the gauge is worthless for this purpose?

Thanks.


----------



## larry1

Zeep,  No answers to your questions ,but a really big welcome back from travels, hope all went well for you. larry


----------



## cfellows

The reason for not using air is this. When you pump any kind of enclosed tank up to 100 psi of air, you have a very large amount of potential energy stored in the compressed air. If the tank fails catastrophically all that potential energy is released at once and you get an explosion that can do a lot of damage.

When you pump the tank full of water, it doesn't compress so there is very little or no potential energy stored. Once the tank is full, you add very little additional water to bring the pressure up to 100psi. If the tank fails, just that small amount of "extra" water is released and it doesn't explode.

Chuck


----------



## rcmadness

If I understand what you are doing correctly. It is safer to pressure test with with water because it does not compress, you want very little air space when you pump it up. If it leaks the pressure dissipates rapidly and it typically a limited release. Imagine a water rocket, the red and white ones that you pumped up with a hand pump, pulled the red keeper back and it took off with great force. Now if you ever fired one of those you know that if you filled it nearly to the top with water if wouldn't do anything. It might have enough power to jump off the holder and fall to the ground. 1/2 full of water would having you trying to find it in the air before it came back down and hit you in the head.

Same principal here.

If you were to test it with air only you would need to submerge it in a water tank (weighted down and body parts way back) and apply the pressure. If it were to fail the water around the tank would keep the metal fragments from getting plumb out of hand.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the 'welcome back' Larry1.

Thanks Chuck and rcmadness. Very helpful explanations.

......................

Uh oh...I see 'bidness' wasn't taken care of in OK. Well...they did say they didn't have a car and it might take a while. ;D


----------



## steamboatmodel

rcmadness  said:
			
		

> If I understand what you are doing correctly. It is safer to pressure test with with water because it does not compress, you want very little air space when you pump it up. If it leaks the pressure dissipates rapidly and it typically a limited release. Imagine a water rocket, the red and white ones that you pumped up with a hand pump, pulled the red keeper back and it took off with great force. Now if you ever fired one of those you know that if you filled it nearly to the top with water if wouldn't do anything. It might have enough power to jump off the holder and fall to the ground. 1/2 full of water would having you trying to find it in the air before it came back down and hit you in the head.
> 
> Same principal here.
> 
> If you were to test it with air only you would need to submerge it in a water tank (weighted down and body parts way back) and apply the pressure. If it were to fail the water around the tank would keep the metal fragments from getting plumb out of hand.


The Largest "metal fragment" is apt to be the boiler itself. Back to your water rocket analogy you can launch them from underwater and it does not slow them down much. The only safe way to do a Hydrostatic Boiler test is to do it with the water in the boiler.
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well...I might have a boiler.

Thanks to Pete's suggestion (as well as everyone else's help on the valve etc.)...I got the mountain bike shock pump set up with the adaptor I made last night.

Pumped to about 57 psi or thereabouts. Boiler will (should) operate at about 15 psi.







It's been nearly 10 minutes now and so far no leak. I thought there was up by the gauge (which is not a problem for the boiler) but that might be just drips.

Just saw your post Gerald...thanks.

..............

As a side note...I went out yesterday looking for liquid sterno. But the sporting goods store has gone out of business. Went by KMart and saw some Coleman liquid fuel. Will that work for the fuel tank?

Marv has suggested some 'varnish remover?' but I need the name of the brand. This is very different from what I'm used to and I don't want to get the wrong stuff and 'experiment'.

..............

As another side note...I saw Bogs' reference to the 'Tutu brigade'. I've never heard of a 'brigade of one' so I must not be alone. Better 'out than in' they say...so fess up.

And remember the old saw...'Methinks thou doth protest to much'.
Eh Rick? Jim? Dean? How about you Marv? :big:


----------



## mklotz

> Marv has suggested some 'varnish remover?' but I need the name of the brand. This is very different from what I'm used to and I don't want to get the wrong stuff and 'experiment'.



I think what I said was that (methylated?) alcohol is sold as shellac thinner in some of the big box stores. At OSH, you can't find cans of "alcohol" among the cans on the shelf but you can find shellac thinner. I use it in all my alcohol lamps and it works just fine.

If you can find a clerk in the store who looks to be over 50 years old and has no tatoons or piercings, ask him.

Occasionally I've used Coleman fuel in an alcohol lamp and it seemed to work well.

Liquid Sterno may be available from commercial restaurant supply houses, such as Smart & Final. That's where I find the large cans of Sterno - the napalm style.


----------



## Dan Rowe

Congratulations on a successful boiler hydro. ;D :bow: :bow:

There is usually a time limit on a hydro but most often it is the length of the inspectors attention span. For a boiler that small 10 minutes is plenty of time.

That is a nice feather for your cap.

Dan


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, I'm going to push against Marv a little bit here, (and no offense, Marv!). Don't use Coleman fuel in your burner. It's almost pure naphtha, very much a gasoline type substance. If you use it as a fuel, the body of liquid fuel needs to be fully contained, as in a camp stove, or Zippo lighter. If you spill a little naphtha while you're running your engine, it will flash, and "woof!" just like if you were to throw a match into a puddle of gasoline. Too volatile for a wick burner with tank not sealed from the atmosphere.

Just get some alcohol! A paint store will sell the purest kind as shellac thinner, called denatured alcohol. You can also use rubbing alcohol, if that's all you can find. Check the drug store for it, and try to get 91% rather than 70%. The higher percentage point, the cleaner and hotter it will burn. Any of the ones I mentioned will work in an alcohol burner/lamp.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Marv.
Thanks Dan!
Thanks Dean. Rubbing alcohol will work? The kind sold in the pharmacy of grocery stores? I got that.

Boiler was tested for 35 minutes...mainly cause T came home with groceries in the middle of the test and I had to clean out the fridge and help put away...and munch a little of the goodies she brought home. ;D

PSI went down from ~57 to 50 but no evidence of leakage. This is the first time I used the pump so I'm wondering if there was some spring back or something.

So I'm a happy guy. And everyone likes me when I'm happy. ;D


----------



## shred

It's always nice to have a boiler test out. For grins, when you're done, instead of bleeding pressure off or whatever, remove a plug-- you'll then see what happens if there's a leak and why we use water instead of air..


----------



## Kermit

Isopropyl -aka rubbing alcohol will work, but you would be better off with the shellac thinning kind. Iso doesn't burn as well and leaves a god awful smell that seems to penetrate everything it touches.

Home depot sells the stuff in quart cans for about 5 dollars or so.  

on another track places like Hobby Lobby/Micheals and walMart sell some stuff called lamp oil. The real name of it is liquid paraffin sometimes its called Kerosene.  It is the same stuff as J&J BabyOil only not so highly refined and without the baby powder scent and other things in it.  :big: Look for an "oderless" type, they are much nicer on the nose.  The draw back with paraffin is insufficent air for the burner can cause black soot deposits.

I would recommend that instead of alcohol. Alcohol fires are almost invisible and alcohol vapors can gather in closed areas with still air and create safety issues. Either one you choose has its drawbacks and good points.  

Congrats on the good test results,
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks shred. I did pay attention when I released the pump. Anticlimactic. ;D Thankfully.

Thanks Kermit. The smell is certainly something to consider. Lamp oil is a good idea too.

Now if I can just get these guests out of here. Wait...burning iso stinks you say? Hm.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Question...

The pump was filled with water. I see some water got into the gauge.

Should I throw a bit of oil down the cylinder and pump it out?
Is there anything I can/should do about the gauge?

Thanks.


----------



## Dan Rowe

Zee, the gauge will be fine it most likely has a brass Bourdon tube and I can see a brass connection. If you plan to use the rig for boiler hydro work oil would be a bad thing because the boiler could be contaminated with oil and that is not a good idea. 

Dan


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Congratulations on your successful hydro. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dan.
Thanks Bob.
.......................................
If I recall correctly, this thing is supposed to run for 20 minutes or so.

It's not permanently mounted to the loco. It attaches to the cab with a nut and the steam dome is mounted with a bolt.

I'm thinking I can build a base of some kind and use this boiler to drive some of my other models. However, it's supposed to generate only 15 psi and I know the quality of some of models require more (even much more)....hm...maybe the rocker...I can run it on lung power. But then...there's no throttle.

I'm thinking I've got more to learn yet.


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm thinking I've got more to learn yet.



Sounds a lot like what the Bride says to me daily

Doing good Zee, enjoying riding along on your Loco adventure

Robert


----------



## Deanofid

Hiya Robert! Haven't seen you around for a couple of weeks. (Glad you're here!)

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Robert! How are you?


----------



## Foozer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Hiya Robert! Haven't seen you around for a couple of weeks. (Glad you're here!)
> 
> Dean



Dean, Zee

Doing fine, think, err, sure moving was a mistake, cant find anything and the idea of redoing a workshop in what is now a clutter trap is GRRR. But a few dozen more trips to the dumps and all will start to take shape. Funny how much JUNK one collects over the years. Need a 300 gallon water tank left over from the Y2K days? It'll be on the corner with a FREE sign on it 

Robert


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Well I went and tried the isopropyl alcohol...

It worked great. A short video...





I also have lamp oil and denatured alcohol. I may get some bunsen burners and do a comparison, but don't count on it. ;D

No smell to speak of until the wicks died. Even then it wasn't bad.

This is the 2nd burn. The 1st burn lasted about 5 minutes and then went out. I thought I'd filled it enough as there was alcohol leaking out of the burners. But I think I had the wicks wrong and it just wicked out.

The 2nd burn last 22 minutes. That should be well enough.

Good old physics reminded me of a few things I need to consider...

If you look at the video, the burners are level with, if not just higher than the bottom of the tank. So not all the fuel could get to the burners. (After the video I put it at more of a slant and that helped.) I can bend them down a bit too, but have to be careful if the tank level is higher.

Secondly, you might recall that the funnel is too low. As a result, it sticks into the fuel tank too far so you can't fill it all the way. I could fill from one of the burners but I'm thinking of drilling a small vent hole in the top/rear for air that I can plug before firing.

I haven't done the research yet, but I'm wondering which of the mentioned fuels burn hotter.

Still a long way to go. I need to build a stationary track with idler wheels so I can run the loco in one place. I also need to fix the one stretcher that the pivot pins attached to. And there's still quite a bit of fiddling to get it to run smooth.

Woo woo.


----------



## Deanofid

Fire!
Yes, woo woo, Zee.

In my burners, the denatured seems to work best, and will get water boiling faster than 91% or the 70% iso. Probably because it doesn't have to evaporate away all the water that is present in the other two.

Keep your denatured caped. It will pull water out of the air, or anywhere else it can get it. I'm not certain, but I suppose the other kinds will too.

I forget, what kind of wicks did you use? (They work well!) 
I have some cotton round type, and some flat kerosene wick. The flat kind, cut in half and rolled up works very well.

Dean


----------



## mklotz

Comparative enthalpy of combustion figures...

Methanol - 22.7 kJ/g
Ethanol  - 29.7 kJ/g
Propanol - 33.6 kJ/g (Isopropyl is 2-propanol)

So *pure* isopropyl has a bit more heat content but the off-the-shelf stuff is diluted with water.

If the denaturing is done by adding just enough methanol to easily-made ethanol to make it poisonous, it's very likely that the mix has more heat content than the diluted isopropyl.


----------



## Deanofid

So, it kind of looks like the 91% iso and the denatured could well put out a fairly similar amount of heat.
Wonderfully inaccurate Wiki says denatured is generally made of 90% ethanol, 10% methanol,
but may have trace "other stuff". 
It would seem that denatured would be hotter, because it is all some kind of alcohol, but the 91% iso is 
hotter before they put the water in.

One plus for the 91% iso is it's available almost any place that sells pharmacy items. You don't have to 
hunt up a paint store. 

Whatever it may be, alky lamps work really well for boiling water!

Thanks for the comparison, Marv.

Dean


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Zee---Back in the day, I used to make a little moonshine. It burned with a clear blue corona---no yellow to the flame at all. I'm not sure what "proof" it was-----bet it woulda ran your train in fine style.---Brian


----------



## Kermit

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Comparative enthalpy of combustion figures...
> 
> Methanol - 22.7 kJ/g
> Ethanol  - 29.7 kJ/g
> Propanol - 33.6 kJ/g (Isopropyl is 2-propanol)
> 
> So *pure* isopropyl has a bit more heat content but the off-the-shelf stuff is diluted with water.
> 
> If the denaturing is done by adding just enough methanol to easily-made ethanol to make it poisonous, it's very likely that the mix has more heat content than the diluted isopropyl.




I'm surprised Marv didn't include the Calorific value of the Paraffin fuels.  Which are pretty close to twice the value of the Methanol.  Lot's more heat per unit volume, just be sure it gets plenty of air to the wick or you'll get a nasty black soot. And if you get the cheap not fully deodorized stuff, your nose will certainly complain.


Can't wait for your first completed run, after all the trials are finished.
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the information and support...Dean, Marv, Brian, and Kermit.



			
				Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Back in the day, I used to make a little moonshine. It burned with a clear blue corona---no yellow to the flame at all. I'm not sure what "proof" it was-----bet it woulda ran your train in fine style.---Brian



Maybe...but somebody else would have to run the train. I'd be in no shape.


----------



## tmuir

Hi,
the best stuff I've found for wicks is the fibreglass rope that is used to seal the doors on slow combustion fire places.
You can get it with a woven core that makes it thicker, or without which makes it easier to stuff it in.
I've got some of both types and they both work equally aswell as each other and best of all the ends don't burn or melt when the fire starts to die out so they last a very long time.
You can pick the rope up off ebay.

Look forward to seeing the loco running.


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Well...I might have a boiler.
> 
> Thanks to Pete's suggestion (as well as everyone else's help on the valve etc.)...I got the mountain bike shock pump set up with the adaptor I made last night.
> 
> Pumped to about 57 psi or thereabouts. Boiler will (should) operate at about 15 psi.



Carl 

I'm not sure whats happening, notifications seem to have dried up for me so i missed this.

Glad to see the pressure testing method worked for you. Cheapest test rig I'm aware of. 

You must be one the home straight by now

Pete


----------



## Deanofid

tmuir  said:
			
		

> Hi,
> the best stuff I've found for wicks is the fibreglass rope that is used to seal the doors on slow combustion fire places.



Tony, will this stuff work in a spirit burner, too? I mean the kind of burner that looks like a rectangular
block with a screen in the top part. 
I'm working on one for one of my boilers, and need a suggestion for what to put under the screen. Seems like cotton would work, but if it gets dry I think it would make a mess.

Dean


----------



## xo18thfa

Playing with fire, huh Carl? Looking very good.  22 minute burn time is super, they don't get much better then that. Alcohol wick burners are kind of an art. Getting the wicks to the correct height and shaped properly. Also how tight the wicks are packed in the burner tube. All things to practice. 

What are you using for wick material? I use ordinary candle wick. Cut several and pack them in the burner tube. Candle wick works fine, but you can't let the tank run out of fuel. Other wise the wicks burner away.

A lot of Gauge 1 loco guys fire their engines with denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol from Home Depot or Lowe's works very well.

Most Gauge 1 live steamers put food coloring in their alcohol. 3 or 4 drops of red food color per gallon of fuel. Just enough to tint it. In the excitement of a run you don't want to accidentally fill the boiler with alcohol and the fuel tank with water. The engine won't work.

Another thing to think about is how to put the fire out. The best way is with a CO2 bicycle tire inflator. You can get them at any bicycle shop. They use regular BB gun CO2 cartridges. Give the fire a little shot of CO2 and out it goes. A regular BB gun cartridge give about 5 or 6 "toots".

It's looking real good. Can't wait to she her on the pike.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tmuir. The kit came with cotton wick. As you point out, it burns up as it runs out.

Thanks Pete. A bit more yet to do.

Thanks Bob. I'll be trying the denatured alcohol too.

Hey Dean! Watcha working on?


----------



## xo18thfa

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks tmuir. The kit came with cotton wick. As you point out, it burns up as it runs out.
> 
> Thanks Pete. A bit more yet to do.
> 
> Thanks Bob. I'll be trying the denatured alcohol too.
> 
> Hey Dean! Watcha working on?



You are fast too Carl. You caught me in the middle of an edit.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Hey Dean! Watcha working on?



Oh, I have a brass boiler that I made years back. It works alright, but the three wick burner I have
for it has never done that good of a job. I'm just making what they usually call a meths burner for it.
They work like the lamp you made, on alcohol, but instead of wicks, they have an open slot with a
grate inside the opening. Under the grate is some kind of fabric that soaks up the alky, and it vaporizes
through the top slot. These burners look like a long narrow box, with a slot in the top.
I'm trying to figure out what other guys use for the alky soaker-upper fabric.

Dean


----------



## doubletop

Remember this from Firebird?







Rich then went on to make one. It maybe just what's needed here. And after 20 mins of searching found the thread _(lots of good stuff can go missing very quickly on here)_

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9262.msg100469#msg100469






Gravity feed meths which heats the coil to help vaporize the meths and improve the burn.

Pete


----------



## njl

Dean, I think you can use cotton wool for this task. If I recall correctly I think that it what my Mamod steam engine used under the mesh.

Nick


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Glad you're busy Dean. ;D

Bob (and others): I'm using some cotton rope that came with the kit.

Thanks for the link Pete.

Nick: 'cotton wool'...hm...cotton from a plant, wool from sheep...so I had to look that up. The English language is so great. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> The English language is so great. :big:




Which English language?


And, thanks Nick and Pete.


----------



## doubletop

njl  said:
			
		

> Dean, I think you can use cotton wool for this task. If I recall correctly I think that it what my Mamod steam engine used under the mesh.



I'm going back 50years now but I'm sure it was layers of felt and not cotton wool in the Mamod burners

Pete


----------



## Deanofid

Felt I got, too. Thanks Pete.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Finally got some quality time to do something...

Worked on the stand for running/testing the loco. I can't say I knew what I was doing...but it seems like it's going to work. Couple of boo-boos but that's okay.

Here's the parts...






Here it is put together...





And 'most' of the loco...
Seems like it'll work sufficiently well for the job.





Thanks for looking.

Oh...the boo-boos...

Messed up some of the grooves on the rollers...but that shouldn't matter.
The steel bushings were meant to be pushed into the rails and the bolts to spin within them...but I drilled the rails too big. So there's slop in the screw to bushing and slop between the bushing and rail.


----------



## Deanofid

That's a pretty neat idea, Zee. Kind of like a dynamometer without the mometer part, or something
like that. Looks like it should do what you want.
I'm anxious to see the first steam up.

Dean


----------



## dreeves

Come on Zee lets see some action :big: :big:


----------



## Troutsqueezer

That's pretty cute Zee. I'm looking at it and thinking, is that four wheel drive? Because I see you have a set of rollers for the front wheels. Are they going to turn?

-T


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

Patience Dave. You know what happens when you hurry. Could mean stitches. ;D

Ah you caught that Trout! Yeah, I was in the middle of making the rollers and realized the front didn't move...but I thought...ah what the heck...practice is good. As it turned out, I messed up those rollers anyway. :big:

Now to fix the stretcher...


----------



## doubletop

Zee

I like it, neat idea. You are an IT guy so there's a challenge for you to add 'mometer' bit

Pete


----------



## tmuir

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Tony, will this stuff work in a spirit burner, too? I mean the kind of burner that looks like a rectangular
> block with a screen in the top part.
> I'm working on one for one of my boilers, and need a suggestion for what to put under the screen. Seems like cotton would work, but if it gets dry I think it would make a mess.
> 
> Dean



Sorry missed this post.
Don't know how good the rope would be for a vap burner that has mesh on it.
But something that would be good is Carbon felt.
This was only recently discovered by a member of another forum I'm on and he likes it.
Its actually for little hiking stoves you carry in your backpack
I've never used it yet, but it has had good reports so far.
http://minibulldesigncult.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1231911


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Pete.
Hiya tmuir.

Just a quick update...

At first I thought it was the stretcher. But it turned out the pivot pins don't fit the frame. I've measured everything several times...all looks good...could be a typo in the drawing (there's been a few of those).

Got the pivot pins improved but now the problem IS the stretcher. I may have to redo both.

On the upside, the cylinders and pistons are working much better. Still a little to do but they may work.

On the downside, my main computer (PC-Vista) has caught a very bad cold and I can't do anything with it. I'm working on my Mac. I don't like it as well (for this application). And for some reason, the net is noticeably slower.

Been at work yesterday and today and I expect to keep doing that for a while. It's that time of the project. So my shop time is minimal. I'm managing to read everyone's posts but would sure like to comment more. There's some good stuff going on!!


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> On the downside, my main computer (PC-Vista) has caught a very bad cold and I can't do anything with it. I'm working on my Mac. I don't like it as well (for this application). And for some reason, the net is noticeably slower.



Gee, I can't imagine anything ever going wrong with a Winderz machine. You must have done 
something terrible to it, like hit it with a sledge hammer, or pushed the 'on' button.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Success! Sort of. Kind of. Mostly...well not really...
Small 'rats' anyway.

So...

I fiddled and fiddled and got the cylinders running 'pretty' smooth.
And while I fiddled and fiddled I could tell there was a good fit (resistance whenever I covered the port hole).
I fiddled and fiddled and got the drive wheels to turn 'pretty' smooth.
I fiddled and fiddled and got the pivot pins and stretcher connected 'pretty' well.

Air! Let's try some air!

Maybe 30 psi.

Right side tries to turn. Gets half-way round...then sticks.
But that means air got to the cylinder and pushed the piston!!! Yay!!
Left side spins...maybe a dozen or turns...then the nut holding the drive wheel falls off and everything stops.
But that means air got to the cylinder and pushed the piston!!! Yay!!
Did it twice. Yay!! Yay!!

I'm figuring the right side needs a bit more fiddling. I suspect the crank pin.

But the nut...those troublesome nuts. I'm always getting into trouble for those.

What can I do to prevent the nut from spinning off?
If I tighten it too much...the wheel gets stuck. I'm thinking the axle may be a tad short (somewhere). I should be able to tighten the nut and still have the wheel turn. That's probably the issue. No big deal to make another axle...but I'll see if anyone has other suggestions.

Man I'm close. I could be steaming this weekend!!!

Oh! Another question...for anyone who has built a similar loco...

What is the relationship of one cylinder to the other?
Working in sync?
180 degree out of phase?
Don't matter?

woo hoo!!!!
woo hoo!!!!
I mean...woo hoo!!!!






woo


----------



## kcmillin

Congratulations Zee!

Awesome to hear you got some life in her Thm:. It's all downhill from here, or up, depending which way the tracks take you :big: :big: 

IMHO I would think for these single acting cylinders you would want them to be 180 degrees off. This would make it run smoothest.

Kel


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> But the nut...those troublesome nuts. I'm always getting into trouble for those.
> 
> What can I do to prevent the nut from spinning off?



Nope not going there


Loctite


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kel. I have no expectations for a 'smooth runner'. Just hoping it runs. ;D

Robert! Watcha been up to? Did I understand one of your posts that you've moved?

......................

Well gee...if that nut keeps falling off...let's see if it still runs.
It does!
A little bit of work on the other side...and it runs too!
I've been told nuts aren't worth much...

So for quite a while I had both cylinders pumping away!!!
It was at 30psi (too much) but it was running.

So I wired the air hose shut and grabbed the camera.
Rats.
Wheels fell off when I wasn't looking.
Can't get it to work again.

Darn it...got to get to bed.


----------



## Kermit

You could try one of those self locking type with the nylon bit inside that keeps it from backing off.








Another choice is to cross drill through the nut and shaft and put a pin in it.







Living vicariously through other HMEM members projects,
Kermit


----------



## tmuir

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> What is the relationship of one cylinder to the other?
> Working in sync?
> 180 degree out of phase?
> Don't matter?



In theory it should be 180 degrees out of phase, but I know that with single acting oscilating toy steam enegines a lot of people have found they run better just slightly off 180 degrees. Its just a matter of tweaking it until it runs the smoothest.

Glad to hear its almost ready to move under it's own steam.


----------



## Deanofid

Your news is getting better each post, Zee!

Just a teeny dab of Loctite on the nut threads will do the trick for those. Use the blue kind, and just a
little bit. Then they'll stay, but you can still get them off.

Dean


----------



## arnoldb

That is sounding good Carl 

Like Dean said - a dab of "weaker" thread retainer should hold those nuts at bay and keep you from going nuts.

I agree with the others - 180 degrees apart will give you the most even spread of power strokes on the single-acting cylinders.

30 psi seems a bit high though, but that's a good way to use your "rolling track" that you wondered whether you needed (in another thread)... Oil all the moving parts well, stick the loco on the rolling track, and let it run for half an hour or so on the rolling track - that will help it to run in most of the moving parts - except for the front axle - and soon it should require less pressure to run well Thm:

Regards, Arnold


----------



## swilliams

Well done Zee, looks like you'll surely win now


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Kermit...that nut is too big. :big:
Thanks tmuir, Dean, Arnold, and swilliams.

I should be able to tighten down the nuts without the axle binding. I suspect the distance between the wheels is a tad short and the wheels are up against the bushings. 

The nuts should tighten down such that the wheels don't spin on the axle. (The axle should spin in the bushings.)

I do worry about the amount of pressure needed to run this...but it's still early and there's more fiddling to do.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

I was going nuts trying to nut out your problem.........................forget about the nuts and make a screw in pin with a collar in place of the dreaded nuts.

Lateral or for both wheels bilateral nutting it out.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## njl

Zee, If you haven't got lock tight a dab of super glue will do just as well.

BTW sorry if the name "cotton wool" foxed you, I don't know any other name for it, so what do you guys call it then? Over here it comes in various formats.

Nick


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob.

These nuts are real small...OD maybe .25 or less. But what I'm wondering is that the nuts are supposed to tighten the wheel against the end of the axle. I'm thinking if I pin it...the nut won't move...but the wheel will turn on the axle rather than the axle turning in the bushing? No?

Thanks Nick. I was thinking 'aha...maybe superglue' on my drive to work today. Thanks for the confirmation.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Picture a twelve year old, the first day of summer vacation, running out the door with all his goodies and toys for a fun day, and the biggest smile in the world, yelling "yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaahhhhh"

Now picture a 57 year old 240 pounder, hobbling up the stairs, with the biggest smile in the world, trying to find his wife so he can show off his engine', yelling "yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhh"

They're actually very similar feelings.

Anyway...

So I was thinking about the axle today and thought...maybe I just need to shim it so the wheels don't pinch against the frame.

So I made some washers. They're 0.17 OD, 0.125 ID, and .005 thick...(or thereabouts).







I was pretty surprised I was able to make them!!!

Everything seemed to go together pretty well. Here's a video of the thing running on air...





It runs...but as soon as I put it on the tracks...it stops.
I have my doubts it will run on steam. But we'll see once it's run in a while.

And yes, T (wife) came downstairs. I got the usual 'uh huh...looks nice...I'm happy for you'.

I couldn't ask for more. :big:

 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1


----------



## joe d

Hey Zee...

Yippee for you! :bow: :bow: Knew ya could do it. All the rest is just tweaking!

Cheers & congrats, Joe


----------



## kustomkb

That's awesome!!

Congratulations Zee!!

You'll get 'er rippin' 'round in no time.


----------



## Philjoe5

Congratulations Zee. Now we can add you to the long list of locomotive manufacturers from Pennsylvania ;D

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## larry1

Great work Zee, glad to see those first runs. larry


----------



## Deanofid

That's great news, Zee! But, arrrrghh! The video I want to see most in the whole world right now
is not available because Pbucket is doing maintenance! 
I'll have to wait 'til tomorrow.


The washers:


> I was pretty surprised I was able to make them!!!



I can't imagine why. You know how to make stuff! You know?
Of course you could make them!

I'm so excited to see the vid. Won't be able to sleep!

Dean


----------



## tmuir

Congrats.
Steam oil is your friend.
I have a toy loco made around 1948 tha at first it would oly run with the wheels off the ground.
I put some steam oil on the port blocks and cylinders and then I had trouble stopping it from derailing on the corners.
I put 4 wagons behind it and it would spin the wheels on take off and still derail on the corners.
Just keep tweaking and it will run on steam.


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

Maybe the reason it stops when you put it down is because there is no flywheel and hence no inertia. My gut feel is that the wheels should be locked to the axle with the cranks at 180 deg and the axle should turn in the frame. that way when one finishes the other starts and the power cycle is more continuous. At the moment it appears that each driver is completely independent of the other and so there is no control over how they interact with each other.  :-\

I wonder what you and others think ???

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## doubletop

Carl

Well done a major moment.

I'm with Bob the wheels should be fixed to the axle so both pistons assist each other on the return stroke. And plenty of oil and let it run free for half an hour. 

Back off the pressure at some point when it loosens up. As Bogs will tell you too much pressure with these wobblers and the steam ports get blown apart and you have more leak than power.

Pete


----------



## njl

Looking good Zee. I'm sure it will just be a small step to getting it running on the track now. 

I think joining the two engines together as Bob says would defo help the running. But it might also cause a problem going round tight corners as the wheels will be turning at the same speed, assuming your wheel rims are flat and not cone shaped. Maybe that won't matter on a small engine, some experimentation required I reckon.

BTW I have the same issues with my Mrs not getting the same buzz out of my hobbies as I do, maybe that is a good thing as at least I don't have to wait for her to finish up using my tools before I can get going 

Nick


----------



## ozzie46

Well done Zee. Thm: Thm: Thm:

 With your pluck and tenacity I knew you'd get it going.


 Ron


----------



## Groomengineering

Hey Zee, great lookin' little loco!!! Looks like Engineer M&M Man will be zooming around in no time! :big:

In RE the rear wheels, I don't know what the provided plans say but I checked Dr. Senfts' original article in Live Steam and he shows the wheels tight on the axle with the pins 180° apart as suggested by Bob and Pete.

As they say, the light at the end of the tunnel could be a train..... Rof}

Sorry, couldn't help it. ;D

Cheers

Jeff


----------



## tmuir

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Zee,
> 
> Maybe the reason it stops when you put it down is because there is no flywheel and hence no inertia. My gut feel is that the wheels should be locked to the axle with the cranks at 180 deg and the axle should turn in the frame. that way when one finishes the other starts and the power cycle is more continuous. At the moment it appears that each driver is completely independent of the other and so there is no control over how they interact with each other.  :-\
> 
> I wonder what you and others think ???
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



Yes just noticed this.
Both wheels must be locked to the axle as they are only single acting and need the other piston to push the wheel back round so it can do another power stroke.
I have 6 single acting oscillating locos and on all of them the wheels are locked to the axles at 180 out of phase with each other.
I did have one once have a wheel come loose on the axle so it shifted position relative to the other wheel and the loco would not run until I loktited it back at 180 degrees out of phase with the other wheel.


----------



## mklotz

That's really great, Carl. I knew you could do it. I'll lift one to your achievement as soon as the sun is over the yardarm.

I'm with Bob and everyone else on advice about cylinder phasing. Lock the wheels to the axle, which turns in the bearings, and arrange the engine power strokes to average out over one revolution of the wheels.

Do the instructions say anything about wheel phasing? 

If you look at Elmer's #2, you'll see that he has the two oscillators connected to the common crank with the crank pins 180 deg out of phase, just as Bob suggests. He uses a separate flywheel but your engine wheels assume that role in the loco.

Good luck with it. You'll be on your hands and knees on the floor making "choo choo" sounds soon. Sure hope they'll have wifi at the sanatorium.


----------



## arnoldb

Great going Carl ;D

I agree about locking the wheels to the axle as well. 

Just a thought - When the loco is run on a track, the entire loco's weigh provides momentum to carry it on past strokes, hence no flywheel is needed. On your rolling track you don't have the momentum - so it might be worthwhile to add a steel "flywheel" to one of the rollers on your rolling track to provide some momentum...

Cheers - I'm already lifting a glass to you *beer*

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## fcheslop

Congratulations Zee,looking forward to the big steam up.Know what you mean about the knowing look from she who must be obeyed but its always nice when the child within escapes. Now the big question whats next :big:
regards and best wishes Frazer


----------



## Troutsqueezer

When you get the video camera mounted on the loco to record the train engineer's view as it goes around the track, well...that'll give it some more momentum too. 

I'm lucky, my wife gets excited when I start up my engine. She likes my model steam engines too.

Super job, Mr. Zee.


----------



## black85vette

Very nice Zee!! There is just another level of cool about something that moves under its own power. I have yet to do that. Someday, maybe.  For now seeing yours will have to do.  Thm: 

BTW; My wife is also good about coming to look at my stuff. I have broken her of using the word 'cute' when she comments on anything. :big:


----------



## Deanofid

Hey, now I can see it go! You're not far off from having it smoothed out, Zee. 
What the other guys said about the axle, dood.

What's for supper? Beer and M&Ms! We're celebratin'!

Dean


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Zee--Congratulations are in order!!! You have done well indeed. I'm not a train kind of guy, but I like yours. I know you will get past the annoying "dialing in" part of the build and have a sweet runner soon.---Brian


----------



## SAM in LA

Carl,

Way to go.

I have really enjoyed following your build.

It sure feels good once you get them running.

SAM


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow. Thank you everyone!

I'd posted this morning...but apparently failed to see that someone was posting at the same time...so mine didn't take. Anyway...

Yes. I need to lock the drive wheels 180 degrees apart. I hope to get some blue Loctite tomorrow.

Oh...I remember one of the questions I'd had in my missing post...."What's the difference between steam and cylinder oil". I'd bought some cylinder oil a long time ago but forgot I had it. I had used just 'regular' oil.

I could have sworn there was instruction about 180 degrees apart but I don't see them now. Maybe I saw that on the internet. There is, however, one single assembly drawing that shows the pistons 180 degrees. Ah...wait...I took another look...it's not where I expected but there is a paragraph about setting the wheels. I can use a dowel through the wheels to set the 180...then tighten. But I don't trust the nuts to hold...never have for me. I'll get the Loctite.

I am surprised by the number of replies. Thank you all very much for watching and tagging along. Still a bit more to go. Actually, my biggest worry now is, if I can actually steam it, coming up with a suitable video. Don't get your hopes up. It may just be a..."Yipee. Lookie. It runs." But I'll try to make it something more.

Thank you all again.
Wonderful forum.

[Edit: Just had to come back and thank you all again. I really appreciate all the help, teachings, support, ribbing, etc.]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Would I wait for Loctite to play? Of course not.
I managed to tighten up the wheels at 180 degrees and made another run.

Here it is at just under 40 psi (way too much)...on my 'track'!!!





And now at just under 20...getting there...





This is unbelievable for me. I'm sitting here with the engine running behind me. Man I wish I had a better air system...the compressor keeps turning on and scares me half to death. I know I have some leaks too...so I'm sure I can make it btr (there...it went off again)...better.

Wow oh wow oh wow. This is so cool.


----------



## Maryak

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> "What's the difference between steam and cylinder oil". I'd bought some cylinder oil a long time ago but forgot I had it.



None.

IMHO the more correct term in UK/Oz is cylinder oil. The basis of these oils is a type called brightstock, it is highly refined and has a high viscosity so ltr for ltr it's more expensive than the common paraffinic oils which make up the bulk of lubricants base oil production.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## dreeves

Zee,

Looks great. Looks like the endless track you built worked.

DAve


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Now you've proof that a locozee can maka zeeloco. ;D ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob and Dave.

Hey Trout...funny how those front wheels aren't turning. I mean, gee, they're sitting on idlers just like the rear wheels. :big:

I took the loco off the stand and set it on the table. It took off! But it takes too much air still. I'm not sure steaming it will work. The safety is supposed to limit it to 15psi (we'll see) and so far it don't go at that pressure. But it's still early!


----------



## larry1

Zee,  congratulations, looking great,the engine really look good on the rollers, great work Zee. larry


----------



## black85vette

Zee; My wife and I have computers next to each other so I turned to her and had her watch your video.  Sad to report to you that she said; "Oh how cute".  Sorry man. Thought she knew better.  :big:


----------



## tmuir

I don't know all the technical terms, but basically normal oil will get washed out of the cylinders easily by the steam while steam oil will stay and lubricate for longer.
Use engine oil on your axels and crank pins and steam oil on the piston and portface.
A little will go a long way.


----------



## Deanofid

Wow oh wow! At 40 psi it goes like stink. At 20 psi it looks like it would go around a track nicely, Zee.
I think you're not far off having it pushing itself along at 15 psi. Remember, a day back it was just 
ticking over. It's gonna be fine!

For the times while you're running on air, just use regular oil, like 3in1 and the like. For air, it will be fine 
putting it right in the air line or cylinder holes, and on the port faces.

When you are going to really steam it, use steam oil (in the engine parts). It stays longer in the cylinder 
when steam is in there. Like Tony says, regular oil will get washed out fast.

The steam oil I have is called steam cylinder oil. I don't know if steam oil, and cylinder oil are different
things, or just different names for the same thing. The specific type on mine is 460 steam cylinder oil,
but it doesn't have a brand name. It's kind of thick, like heavy motor oil, but made for steam engines. 

Happy for ya, Zee!

Dean


----------



## arnoldb

You're certainly not far from it now Carl 

You might be surprised when you try it on live steam - the engine will behave completely differently, and will actually run better than on compressed air. Don't try your first run on steam over a fancy surface though - expect some sputtering and water and oil drips; especially while the cylinders are still cold ;D

Man, am I happy for you; that first run on steam gives the same feeling as building one's first engine ;D


----------



## njl

Looking great Zee, 

If you want the front wheels to turn too whilst the locos on the test track put an elastic band between the rear front roller and front rear roller, that should sort it. Make a small grove for it in the middle of each roller if you want to be really flash.

Happy steaming,
Nick


----------



## doubletop

Zee

Come on; you are at that 99.9% stage in your project. Get it oiled up and run in on air. Then just get that fire lit, you'll be surprised at the difference smoother, quieter and a whole lot nicer with the steam........................

Steam/cylinder oil is the right advice but even 3 in 1 will do. I've been using mountain bike 'wet' lube on my small engines, it may not be the stuff the professionals use but believe me it sticks well enough for engines this size for short runs. We know you've got track so then let's just see it go!!!!!

Hold on, just had a thought; have we seen anything on the safety valve before you fire it up?

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks guys.

Hey BV...was she talking about the loco...or that cute guy next to it?

Thanks tmuir and Dean about the explanation on cylinder oil. I'll be sure to use it. The oil.

See Trout, Nick knew why I had the front wheels on rollers. :big:

Pete...the safety valve has been made but I haven't seated the BB in it yet nor tested it.

The idea is this, mount the safety valve on one bushing of the boiler. Mount the mountain tire pump on the other. Pump up to 15psi (if the valve holds). Adjust the screw in the safety valve that holds the spring that holds the BB until air releases at 15psi.


----------



## tmuir

Looks like you are ready to give it a go with steam.
Now go for it!!


----------



## steamboatmodel

If its not too late may I suggest you set the wheels at 90deg rather than 180. 90 will make it self starting, 180 will give smoother power, but it can stop with one cylinder at TDC and the other at BDC.
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## Dan Rowe

Gerald,
Your advice is good for a radio controled steam engine with reverse, but this loco is the steam equalivent of a clock work loco. Just wind it up and let it go and in this case it might need a tiny shove if it is at dead center, but then like the clock work it just runs untill it is out of energy.

Zee nice job, for the steam test note where the safety valve vents...having your face near it can be a bit startling. Ask me how I know. 8)

Dan


----------



## Troutsqueezer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> See Trout, Nick knew why I had the front wheels on rollers. :big:



Oh sure....easy for Nick to say because he's not the one who will be taking off the Locktited nuts and disassembling the drive train to get that rubber band on there. 

I would like to see that rubber band scenario however, Zee. Could you do that tonight and take some videos?  *beer*


----------



## bearcar1

Zeep, I'd think you would want the crank pins 180* from one another, or just a little out. If they were set to 90*, I believe the motion would become too 'hurky-jerky'. I could be wrong, and as commented on already, so you have a dead center condition, walk over and give the loco a small assist. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Pete...the safety valve has been made but I haven't seated the BB in it yet nor tested it.
> 
> The idea is this, mount the safety valve on one bushing of the boiler. Mount the mountain tire pump on the other. Pump up to 15psi (if the valve holds). Adjust the screw in the safety valve that holds the spring that holds the BB until air releases at 15psi.



Not wishing to rain on your parade, good luck with this. I've tried the test you are planning and never been successful in getting the ball seated. I've faithfully copied the Kozo article in Live Stearn, made D bits for Africa and never been happy with the results. _(I always ended up using a commercial valve for steaming up)_

Of course you'll do it first try

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks tmuir.
Thanks Gerald.
Thanks Dan for the safety note. It IS steam after all.



			
				Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> I would like to see that rubber band scenario however, Zee. Could you do that tonight and take some videos?



Nope. :big:

Thanks Jim.

Pete...you're right...I do have to try it. I have no alternative. What did you do to make yours work well? I'll have my umbrella ready...along with a fire extinguisher...and kleenex.
The 'other paper' is always available. Never without it.

...........

I was still wondering today if the stand with the idler rollers was worthwhile. I mean, why not just set it on blocks? Ah...because there'd be no weight on the wheels. So I'm thinking this is a good test. Whether I put rubber bands on the front wheels or not. ;D


----------



## fcheslop

Looks like its nearly time to run her on steam .
All the best Ive got a dram or two waiting to celebrate :big:
Best wishes Frazer


----------



## doubletop

Zee

The problem is I didn't manage to make mine work very well at all. But as you know don't even think about firing it up until you have made it.

Not sure who suggested it but my understanding of the post was to put the rubber band between the rollers not on the engine. Engine drives back wheels, back wheels drive back roller, back roller drives front roller, front roller drives front wheels.

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Drat Drat and Drat.
I lost my ball...
the BB for the safety valve.
But I found it!
Put it on the worktable next to me.
Turned to the lathe.
Grabbed something and set it to the side...on the worktable next to me.
Heard a ping.
I lost my ball...again.
But I found it!
Nope...it's a dead roly-poly.
Drat Drat and Drat.

[Edit: I found it! Hiding under the drip tray of the mill. It is now in a hermetically sealed envelope in a #2 mayonnaise jar. My porch will have to do though. I have no idea where Funk and Wagnall is.]


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Quick test...

I seated the BB and put the safety valve together.
Hooked up the mountain shock bike.
Works well at about 40 psi.
Opens and closes.
Less than that though and the valve leaks too much.

I'm thinking I need to try reseating it again.

'reseating'...putting the BB in the valve, put a dowel on top of that, and bang it with a small hammer. The fact that 40 psi is 'good' tells me (perhaps wrongly) that I'm close. There's enough spring pressure to hold the ball down enough...but any irregularity in the seating shows up with less pressure. Any confirmation? Any 'you idiot'?

[Edit: Also...as I let up on the screw that holds the spring down to reduce the psi needed to left the valve...that screw gets pretty loose. I'm thinking it's going to vibrate where I don't want it to go. I'm thinking teflon tape. ]

.................

Thanks for the PM Pete.


----------



## doubletop

Carl

 It looks like you are having a similar experience to me, hopefully the info I sent over will help. Although as 40psi SV would have done me. It's all about getting the ball seated well and getting the right spring pressure.

On my thread there was a bit of a discussion about the validity of using air to test SV's as steam has different characteristics. You could try that suck test but don't swallow the ball or you'll be waiting most of the weekend before you can finish the job.

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Pete.
I can't tell if I have the ball seated properly. I may have hit it too hard.
As for the spring, it came with the kit. Do people trim them?
(I'll wait a bit for the suck test.)

..........................

Disappointment of sorts. I had a go at steam. First time for me so I didn't know what to expect. Steam was coming out of various places as well as water. Tried spinning the wheels forgetting that fuel would drip. So a few flames here and there.

I think one mistake I made was to take the thing apart after running in with air, then putting it back together and going for steam. Putting it back together has (re)tightened some things.

The bigger disappointment is that I'm running out of time. The project at work is at a critical stage so I'm working weekends. If I can't find the time soon, I should be able to have Labor Day weekend.

Just so I have something to show...


----------



## bearcar1

Man that sure is a handsome little bugger Zeep. Looks just like the one in your opening post (well pretty close anyway) It truly reflects all of the attention to the details. Get the track laid out, it won't be long now. ;D Thm:

BC1 
Jim


----------



## 4156df

Zee,
Your engine is really looking great! That first shot at steam is pretty exciting, isn't it. From personal experience and from what I've been told, steam leaks, stray flames & hot parts are pretty normal the first time around.
Regards,
Dennis


----------



## arnoldb

Your loco looks great Carl.

Just a thought as I'd not seen it mentioned - Did you use a different ball from the one you used to whack the seat with on your safety valve ? - nearly all I've read and from my own limited experience with it the safety valves needs 2 balls; one to whack the seat with & tossed away and a new one for use afterwards in the SV. I also had some issues with Fred the loco's safety valve when I tried to use the same ball; after replacement, no leak.



> From personal experience and from what I've been told, steam leaks, stray flames & hot parts are pretty normal the first time around


:big: - I fully agree with that!

Regards, Arnold


----------



## bearcar1

You might make that three balls, one that gets bashed on to make the seat and disposed of, one that is to become the sealing ball in the valve, and one to replace the one that was to become the sealing ball in the valve but it rolled off the bench and to God knows where and is hiding.  ;D


BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid

I sure like the looks of it, Zee.

I don't think you mentioned this, and it will make some difference to your steaming. Don't fill the boiler 
too full. For this, probably about 1/2-2/3 full. If you fill it too much, you'll just get a bunch of water
coming through the pipes. 

Also until the cylinders get hot, they are going to spit water for a while. At first, when they are cold, all 
the steam is immediately condensed back into water as it goes into them. When they warm up, it
will start steaming properly, provided nothing is binding.

The advice you got about the SV ball is correct, in my experience. Especially the part about one of the
"good" balls rolling under the bench.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

heh heh heh heh...

Thanks Dennis. Your description is a perfect match.

Arnold...I was waiting for someone to mention that. The kit came with only one ball. I'll have to get its dimension and see what I can find/buy/steal. I'm pretty sure that roly-poly I found won't do.

Thanks Jim. Sorry to let you down though. I don't think we'll be seeing this run on track. I'll be happy to have it run either on the stand or on blocks. I just don't have the place to set up. Running it on the stand in the basement is okay...but on track...if it got away from me...I could be in a world of hurt. That leaves the garage...but it's about to go through remodeling.

Thanks Dean. That's exactly what happened and your explanation for what to expect with the pipes is very helpful. I did fill too much.

I'm at work right now...maybe I can try again tomorrow. Oops...gotta go... :big:


----------



## SAM in LA

Zee,

Looking good.

Be careful so you don't burn the house down while playing with your Choo - choo.

I want a train too.

SAM


----------



## doubletop

Zee

If you need more balls _(OK we'll skip the innuendo)_ just go to your local bike store. They'll have heaps of new ones in all the standard sizes. I think I paid $3 for a bag of 20. That may or may not be cheap but its a convenient source.

Pete


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, you referred to the ball as a "BB" a few posts back. If it really is a BB, then it should be .177" dia.
Of course, then you could get a few hundred of them for a few bucks. You won't have to worry about
what ends up under the bench. 

I sure wish you'd get done working all the time. It's really eating into your project schedule, and frankly,
I'm getting tired of it.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks SAM.
Thanks Pete...I'll check it out.

Dean...I just used BB generically as 'ball-bearing'. Perhaps I shouldn't to avoid confusion. The ball in the kit is quite a bit smaller.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I sure wish you'd get done working all the time. It's really eating into your project schedule, and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.



Working is my investment in the future so I can continue this hobby (and make you tired of that). :big: Thanks for the thought Dean. Now I have to...go...to work. 

[EDIT: The steel ball is 5/32 (I measured .155 with my mic), 100 grade - whatever that is.]


----------



## steamboatmodel

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> [EDIT: The steel ball is 5/32 (I measured .155 with my mic), 100 grade - whatever that is.]


For all you want to know (and more) about steel balls
http://www.steelmedia.com/dispenser-pumps.htm
Here is one on EBay
http://cgi.ebay.ca/100-5-32-302-stainless-steel-bearing-balls-/310231715226?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
Regards,
Gerald.
PS I have been told that if you can make the seat removable that burnishing it with a ball (which you discard) on newspaper gives a better seal.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks for the link Gerald. That explained a lot for me.

A little update...

Played with the loco and found two issues...

One is that the left drive wheel isn't square to the axle. I don't know why but I suspect the washer I made.
The second is that the diameter of the crank pins varies a little. A bit thicker the closer you get to the drive wheel. Depending on where the end of the piston rod is sitting...it can bind.

The axle though is freely moving. If I disengage the pistons and roll the loco...it just zips along with a little push. It'll roll off a slightly uneven table.

I'm not sure if the wobble in the drive wheel will stop the engine from working (although it can't be good)...but I worked the crank pins and piston rods and that seems to be a whole lot better.

Running on air right now. This time I used cylinder oil...and even that made a huge difference from the motor oil I was using. It sounds so much better. Listening to it in the background...it almost sounds like a choo-choo. Well...to me anyway.

Gaining confidence that the engine will steam. Losing confidence that I can have a 'memorable' video. Work is really in the way. ;D


----------



## fcheslop

Best of luck Zee, it looks like theres only a few small hurdles to overcome.
best wishes Frazer


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frazer.

..................

Got it put back together and running on air again. Looks like it's running at about 18 psi but if I do anything with it...it stops.

So on a lark, I set it on the table. Off it went. Hm. Apparently, the stand I made is a little too much for it. It can overcome it's own weight...but the additional resistance of the idlers on the stand makes it more difficult..

So here's a little video...15 psi (or thereabouts) which is the target.

You gotta wait for it.

The first time it hung up on the air line.
The second time it hung up again...but I was a bit excited.





I repeat...

Wow oh wow oh wow.


----------



## bentprop

I wouldn't worry too much about the crank pins,Zeep,they'll "wear in".
If it's too perfect,people will think you bought it! :big:


----------



## dreeves

Looking good Carl. Keep it up and keep the videos coming

Dave


----------



## bentprop

Just watched the video.Cute as a button!
Give that man a cigar! :big:


----------



## xo18thfa

Carl: Grade 100 means the ball has a spherical error less then .0001". They are hard, but you want to change the ball after seating.

Steam condenses quickly when it hits cold cylinders. Water comes out of the exhaust (and everywhere) big time. Just keep turning the wheels and pumping steam/water thru. Eventually the cylinders warm up and it will take off on its own. And it will go like a gun shot at first, but will settle down and find it's way.

Don't worry about the wobble, just make sure there are not binds. Let it "wear in"

That's a really nice looking machine. Great job.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Having you guys watching and posting means a whole lot to me.



			
				bentprop  said:
			
		

> If it's too perfect,people will think you bought it! :big:



So true. As it is, whenever I show my stuff at work...the 1st question seems to be "Did you make all of that?" And I get torn...well yes...but I didn't make those little screws...but I made the others...and yes I machined everything...but I didn't make the raw metal. ;D I'm moving towards "Why yes I did. And I'm thinking you wish you could do that." ;D

Thanks Dave. I saw you got the stitches out. I hope all the feeling is there. The feeling in the finger. ;D

Thanks bentprop. 'Cute as a button' eh? Hm...Well that's okay this time. But I'm thinking the next project has to exceed 'cute'. :big:

Thanks Bob. Considering the locomotive you're making...that means a lot to me.

..........................

Found a leak. It's at the steam dome. But I haven't determined if it's the gasket (which has been re-used now a few times)...or the pipes going into the steam dome. Next time I'll try replacing the gasket and see.

I hope I can get some more steel balls in the next day or two. But my options are limited. If I have to order them...I have to wait to steam. That would be a bummer. So you can guess what I'll do anyway. ;D


----------



## Deanofid

:bow:

 ;D ;D ;D

It goes, Zee!! I think it's great, and I want to see more.
Can't wait to see it puffing along on it's own steam.

Just for kicks, this is a quote from the first post I made to this build thread, after
you had done the first parts for this loco, (one of the bumpers):



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Your first bit looks just great, and I'm sure it's the start of a string of successfully built parts.



I love being right.  

Dean


----------



## bearcar1

Way to go Zee! I had to chuckle to myself just a bit when I saw the first part of your video. Somehow the song "Wreck old 97" began running through my mind, and I don't know why. :big: :big: :big:

Good on ya' brother, you're at the finish line now Casie. ;D

BC1
Jim


----------



## shred

FWIW, my little loco runs far better on track than it does on a flat surface. I'm not completely sure why, but it'll barely roll across the floor on steam, but zips merrily around a track.

Pro tip: Sit in the middle of the track circuit while testing on air if you'll fit.


----------



## doubletop

Away you go Carl

Working safety valve or not, have you tried boiling the water with the burner installed (without the valve out of course)

Running on steam by the end of the weekend I'd guess

Pete


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean!

Thanks Jim. Yeah, I thought with the right music I could have a comedy. Maybe Harold Lloyd or the Keystone Cops. :big: But I suspect there's more comedy to come.

Thanks shred. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the effective diameter of the drive wheel is different on the floor than on rail. (And no...I wouldn't fit. ;D )

Thanks Pete. No I hadn't tried boiling water without the valve. What am I looking for?


----------



## T70MkIII

Great to see her running, Zee. Won't be long before she's off the umbilical and running strong.


----------



## black85vette

Woo Hoo!! ( or should I say "Choo Choo"?) Keep repeating; I think I can, I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.


----------



## mklotz

> Wow oh wow oh wow.



I love it. A childhood dream realized. Been there, done that, know the feeling. Savor it.

As Dorothy Parker said when her friend gave birth...

Congratulations, we knew you had it in you.

The test stand may need some (light) oil on the bearings. Perhaps some masking tape on the rollers under the drive wheels would create more grip and allow it to run on the stand.


----------



## steamboatmodel

Its looking good. I would have posted you some 5/32 ball, but you picked one of the sizes I don't have. The fellow on E Bay is usually fairly fast I have got stuff from him in four days.
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## Phantom0_1

Hi Zeeprogrammer

I have just read through your build, superb work you have a really nice little loco there, congratulations on a wonderful result.

Regards
Tony


----------



## stevehuckss396

Awesome!!

Are you going to set up a circle track with a air hose that swivels around from the center and feeds the little loco? Would be cool to see it crusing around.

Great work!


----------



## Deanofid

Oh, I remember a couple of things I was going to mention, but forgot 'cause I was too
jazzed with the test run.
When you go to steam it, use distilled water. Keeps deposits out of the boiler and your
little steam lines.
Start with hot water in the boiler, and it will steam up faster. I put a cup of distilled in the
microwave for a minute, then pour it into my boiler(s). Then the water will boil in just a
minute or two.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I got balls!
and track too!
but I'm still on air (literally and figuratively).

Thanks for the tip Pete. Local bike shop was very helpful to get the 5/32 balls.

Thanks Richard.
Thanks Rick (BV)...and darn it...lousy family.
Thanks Marv.
Thanks Gerald.
Thank you very much Tony. That means a lot.
Thanks Steve...stay tuned. ;D
Thanks Dean. Darn you. I completely forgot about using distilled water. I used tap water...but I used hot water from the...can't think what to call it...little heater under the sink that provides instant hot water for my morning coffee. Well that's yet another trip to a store.

Question: I'm putting together the track and I find that the track is so tight that the rails move rather the pins getting fully inserted. Is there a trick? Lionel O gauge (scale?).


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Grease the pins----


----------



## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Pete. No I hadn't tried boiling water without the valve. What am I looking for?



That you can boil water? It's one more step on the journey! 

Pete


----------



## ozzie46

Nice going Zee. You"ll walk on solid ground again. It might be a while but you will. :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:
  No adult beverage beats this kind of high. No sir.


  Ron


----------



## kcmillin

Awesome Job Zee.

 I loved the vid of the loco running 'loco' across the table, seems like 18psi is plenty of juice.

About the track, When I was a kid we had a Loinel train set. I remember we always had to pull the pins with a pliers to get them out, and to get them in we had to tap them in pretty hard, (Pretty hard for a ten year old that is.) We had to keep them tight so the electricity would flow, but you might be able to widen the female part of the track the pin goes in, not too much though. 

Another thought, If the pin don't fit, you have the equipment, and knowledge, to make one that does.

Kel


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Brian. I thought about that...later. I tapped the track together with my little brass hammer...on the rail, not the pin.

Pete..."so I can see if I can boil water"? sigh...but not a far-fetched idea. Can't be too different from boiling eggs. :big:



			
				ozzie46  said:
			
		

> No adult beverage beats this kind of high. No sir.



Ain't that the truth. Thanks Ron.

Thanks Kel.

And now for the next post...a disappointment perhaps for some...but not for me.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Got the track put together.
Time for another 'air' run.
You can skip the first two...they are 'disasters' but I put them here for 'posterity'.

I got too excited in the first one.
I think my tutu got in the way of the second one. Thankfully, you can't see that.
For the third...the engine is running faster than I expected.
Next installment will be, must be, hopefully is, the steam run.

I had some things I was going to say during the videos...but I was dumbstruck.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> but I used hot water from the...can't think what to call it...



The water heater?...
 ;D










A demand heater. I knew what you meant. 


Nice run(s)!! Successful. Successfuller. Successfullest!
Man, it really scoots, too. Much, much fun. I really want to come over to
your house to play, now! 


Dean


----------



## kcmillin

WOW!!! She really cooks. Running smooth now too! I hope no one was hurt in the de-railment. :big:

Have you tried it at a lower PSI?

Kel


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I really want to come over to your house to play, now!



Any time Dean. Bring a casserole though. ;D
And your shop. You got better toys.

Thanks Kel. No injuries. I thought it was set at 18 but I just looked at it and it appears it was running at about 25. I did another run at what is supposed to be 15. It ran around the track, slowly, but it ran. Not sure about the psi though. I set the regulator to 15 but when I got back to it after the run...it indicated 20. It dropped to 15 when I applied pressure.

I think there's a leak at the steam dome...I'm hoping it's the gasket. Next run (when I can get to it) will tell.

Wow oh wow oh wow.
Did I say that before?


----------



## shred

COOL! Ain't it fun seeing something you made go trucking around a track like that?? Just wait until it does it all by itself.  :big:

btw, if you run into troubles with the steaming, you might find something of use in here:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2049.msg35957#msg35957


----------



## swilliams

I've really enjoyed watching you build this Zee

It really does scoot along in that movie. Glad to see it working out so well


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Any time Dean. Bring a casserole though. ;D



Tater Tot sound good?



> And your shop. You got better toys.



Not anymore!

Dean


----------



## walnotr

It looks really good Zee! Next you need to install a reversing valve so you can unwind the air hose once in awhile!  :big: :big:

Steve C.


----------



## SAM in LA

Zee,

I have enjoyed the journey which resulted in a great build and successful run.

Perhaps you can make a coal tender, freight car or caboose to pull behind it.

As always, looking forward to the next episode of "British 0-4-0 Toy Locomotive: he said".

Regards,

SAM


----------



## mklotz

How about that! A control line locomotive. The airplane guys are gonna be sooo jealous.

Re distilled water...

Around here they sell mostly de-ionized water and one really has to look for distilled water. Since most of the mineral impurities in water are going to be in the form of ions, I suppose that de-ionized water is an ok substitute for distilled in a boiler but I'm willing to be corrected on that point.


----------



## steamboatmodel

I use the water from the dehumidifier in my boilers.
Regards,
Gerald.


----------



## spuddevans

mklotz  said:
			
		

> How about that! A control line locomotive. The airplane guys are gonna be sooo jealous.
> 
> Re distilled water...
> 
> Around here they sell mostly de-ionized water and one really has to look for distilled water. Since most of the mineral impurities in water are going to be in the form of ions, I suppose that de-ionized water is an ok substitute for distilled in a boiler but I'm willing to be corrected on that point.



I would avoid using De-Ionised water in your boiler at all. The reason for this is that the De-ionised water will leach the ions out of what it is contained in, namely your boiler, gradually weakening it.

I am a Clear Wall Maintainence Engineer ( a window cleaner ) and I use the "Brush-on-a-Stick" method of window cleaning and that uses gallons of de-ionised water which I produce myself via various filters and, finally some de-ionising resin.

What some of my fellow window cleaners have found in their water purification and filtering setups is a problem that came to light sometime after their installations. They had a short length of copper pipe going thru a wall that joined the de-ionising resin stage to the filtered water-storage positioned outside. What happened was that they noticed that after a couple of years of use the copper pipe developed several pin-hole leaks.

This was caused by the de-ionised water leaching out from the copped pipe. 

Now this is not water under pressure, just under gravity. 

Ok it took a couple of years for the copper pipe to leak, but imagine the risk to your precious boiler.




Tim


----------



## spuddevans

I forgot to mention, If your windowcleaner uses the same sort of pure-water system, you could ask them if they could give you some RO (reverse osmoses) water ( obviously before it goes through the Deionising resin ) for filling your boiler. Basically it is tapwater that has had almost all minerals and chlorine ect removed from it, but it is not de-ionised.

I know I'd be glad to give anyone a few gallons of my RO water if they wanted it for steam purposes ;D 

Another source of RO water is your local tropical fish shop, they use RO water to fill their tanks.


Tim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

shred...that's a great list of commandments. I am a sinner. Times 4.
Thanks Steve (swilliams)!
Dean...Tater Tot casserole sounds good! We can get veggies from the garden.
Thanks Steve (walnotr)!
Thanks SAM. Coal tender, freight car, and caboose...I'll save that for the 3.5" I hope to build some day.
Thanks Marv.
Thanks Gerald.
Thanks Tim.

Distilled water...I bought some at the pharmacy. 1 gallon for $1.29. All it says is 'Steam Distilled'. I figure that's good enough for this.

I have to use it soon though. It's stamped to expire May 13, 2012. Wow. Down to the day. :big:



distilled water


----------



## deere_x475guy

Jeez Carl, I don't check this thread for a couple of days and you have it completed and running on tracks...very cool :bow: :bow:..

Congratulations and thanks for taking the time to post such a great build thread.... :bow:


----------



## tmuir

Just snuck a look at your thread at work.
I'cent watch videos at work. Now I've got to wait 8 hours until I get home to watch the video. 

Congrats on getting it going on a track


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bob and tmuir.

.................................

Sorry to say...my attempt to steam failed. Well...I got steam...just no movement.
Giving it a bit of a push you could tell it wanted to...but no.
I'm thinking the problem is that it's still not 'loose' enough. Too much friction/binding to overcome. No leak from the safety valve or the steam dome. Got water dripping from the port block/cylinder.

Maybe I need to go to confession. ;D

Many of you will remember the discussion (a long time ago) regarding the hand rails. My little mistake that ended up with the handrails on the firebox side rather than the rear of the cab? Well...I now know the reason why they were mounted on the rear of the cab. If you mount them on the front of the cab...they get hot. ;D

By the way, (hack) lighting up with (cough) isopropyl alcohol does result in a (koff) bit of a smell (wheeze)...but it's not too bad. Should vent it though.

This may never go but it's a big success as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't given up yet.

Just a grumble. No phooey yet. No 'rats'. But maybe a 'darn'.

 :big: I love this stuff.


----------



## Kermit

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> By the way, (hack) lighting up with (cough) isopropyl alcohol does result in a (koff) bit of a smell (wheeze)...but it's not too bad. Should vent it though.



Really?  Who'd have guessed?


 :big:

Congrats on the successes so far Carl. I'm hoping to get back to hobby-ing soon.  Wife is again gainfully employed(she starts monday) and we'll have enough fund$ for daddy's "stuff" once again. I don't think I'll be a quick to master these things as you have proven to be.  If you can't tell, I'm just a little bit jealous. In a good way. 

 :bow: 
Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Really?  Who'd have guessed?



Sorry about that. I'd meant to mention that I was warned about this earlier. 



			
				Kermit  said:
			
		

> If you can't tell, I'm just a little bit jealous. In a good way.



That's a big compliment. Thanks.

But no need to be jealous...failing is pretty easy. :big:
And I'm not so fast...this project started last February...I just post a lot so it seems so. ;D


----------



## ksouers

Hey Zee! Congratulations!
Sorry to be a little late to the party, busy as heck and just catching up.

That's gotta be a blast watching that thing run around the track. I know you'll get the steam problems worked out. It'll just take a little time.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Maybe I need to go to confession. ;D



Uh, isn't that what HMEM is??  ;D


----------



## bearcar1

Way to go Zee!!!! That is WAY COOL! 8) Could it be the fire isn't hot enough to develop good pressure? Man that will be so neat to see when you can lose the tether. WAY COOL it is now.


BC1
Jim


----------



## ariz

congrats Zee, sorry for the delay, but yesterday I was hit by car and I spent all afternoon in the emergency room

a very exciting video, although it is running on air, I'm sure that you can solve the problems with steam
a great success anyway :bow:


----------



## Artie

obviuosly you are home.... any long term stuff? Are you ok? Hell Ariz, bad way to spend an afternoon! Recover well and quickly mate.

Rob T


----------



## Artie

Hey Carl (not hey you), you are doing an amazing job and looks like you have learnt heaps from it as well ( I know I have), the result looks damn fine! Im looking forward to it steaming its way around that track... that will be an achievement and a pat on the back headin your way, well done mate. :bow:

Rob T


----------



## zeeprogrammer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Maybe I need to go to confession.





			
				ksouers  said:
			
		

> Uh, isn't that what HMEM is??



 Rof} Can't be. I've never received penance here. Although I have gotten the knuckles rapped a couple of times. Eh Marv? :big:

Thanks Jim. Hot enough fire? How would I tell?

Thanks Rob. You must have a long arm. ;D

Thanks ariz. I hope there was no serious injury and that recovery is quick. Take care.


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Jim. Hot enough fire? How would I tell?



Assuming you've tested the safety valve to open when it should, when you put your burner under
the boiler, let it set for a few minutes and watch the safety valve. It will start to "sizzle" when
the fire has got you up to operating temp/pressure. If it never lets off steam, you need to change 
the wick length, or use a fuel with more alcohol content. 
(Get some denatured. Besides being hotter, it won't soot up the bottom of the boiler.)

Dean


----------



## shred

What Dean said. Make sure your burner can pop the safety in reasonable time. If it won't, you're not getting enough heat to the water.

Also try running it up on blocks-- not even the rollers but everything in the drive train hanging free. You can also judiciously apply a small torch to aid in heating.

...and, rig a pressure gauge  ...

- Roy


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean and shred.

Safety valve was tested by means of setting it with the mountain shock pump. It has a pressure gauge. Adjusted it so it would go at about 30. Previous pressure test was at 50. I can probably lower the setting.

I was thinking earlier today that the wicks are too close to the boiler. I'm going to adjust them. If I still have trouble...I'll try the denatured alcohol.

I did think about helping the heat with the small butane pencil torch I was using to light the wicks. I may try that too.

I tried holding the loco and spinning the wheels...similar to being on blocks (but a bit warmer).

I also think more adjustment is in order. If I still have issues then I may be looking at shred's commandment #2...

"Thy Wobbler Faces Must Fit and Be Flat"

Still confident!

Thanks


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Looking for any modicum of redemption...

It's running on 5 psi air on blocks.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

But my sins must be near unforgivable.

2nd steam attempt has failed. Less apparent leakage...but it won't run on blocks and no pushing helps. No pressure behind it. I don't think it's the safety valve. I couldn't see or detect any leak around that.

Tomorrow I hope to try again. I'll recheck the safety valve and try the denatured alcohol.

Remember...this is not a failure in my mind. To have gotten this far is beyond what I'd hoped for a year ago. (Not that that will stop the phooeys, rats, and darns. I should really combine those. 'phoodrat' or 'dratphoo'...nah...each has it's own particular 'flavor'.)

Kind of curious though. When connected to air, the drive wheels spun more easily (without air on) than they do when filled with water and the safety valve in place. Or seemed to. Any thoughts?


----------



## bearcar1

Zeep, I know you are anxious, like the rest of us to see your loco run on steam. I still believe that the fire is not hot enough to generate enough steam at pressure to drive the wheels. Using a fuel that burns hotter (denatured alcohol etc.) and/or adding another burner to your arrangement I 'think' will solve your problem. That isopropyl stuff (the stuff used to disinfect paper cuts etc. contains quite a bit of water and although is combustible, does not have the BTU rating that some of the other liquid fuels have. Does the safety valve fizz when you steam your boiler? If not it isn't getting hot enough and is not producing steam of the quantity required to propel the engine. If the mechanicals run free of binding this is the only thing I can possibly think of that would prevent the engine from moving under its own power, unless there is a huge air leak at the valve faces and even then you should see the steam blowing out in those locations. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## Artie

Hay Carl, not Hey You Carl......

I have NO experience here just running this though the grey matter... so take these musings with a grain(bucket) of salt... the air can supply PRESSURE and VOLUME.... one doesnt always equate to the other... is the safety valve now exhausting steam?

Pressure will make the wheels try to move but in doing so if this reduces the pressure significantly (as in lack of volume - low temp on boiler AND low capacity in boiler) they wont go any further. Further if the system *is* trying to supply low volumes, then leaks could stop any 'get up n go'. The point is these problems wont exist with air, as even at low pressures it can supply large volumes.

It may come back to getting rid of those leaks and getting more pressure up...(more heat as the guys are suggesting). I would have thought that the pressure relief valve should be blowing off merrily with the wheels stalled.... as per the real thing sitting at stations....

then again I could be entirely wrong... that would be no 'first'.... good luck mate....


----------



## Maryak

Zee,

With the boiler 2/3 full of water and the safety in place when the pistons go down operated from the wheels they are trying to pull a vacuum in the boiler and with this small air space you may be feeling the resistance of the "SUCK"

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Jim, Rob, and Bob.

I don't see any 'steam' leaks. But after a while I get water coming out of the port blocks and/or pistons. So I'm thinking two issues...one is not enough heat and two is that the cylinders are too leaky. But if the cylinders are too too leaky then I'm thinking it wouldn't have run as well as it did on 5 psi air. What water I'm seeing may be condensation.

Sounds like everyone is saying there's not enough heat. In support of this theory, shortly after I lit the wicks, my little butane pencil torch ran out of fuel. ;D Thus punishing me for my prior (recurrent) sins.

Thanks!


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, I don't know how many times you tried spinning the wheels, but here's something else to ponder;

Remember when we said the water from the boiler will condense in the cylinders? That will go on for some time before the cylinders get warm enough to start working on steam.

On some of my engines, when running on steam, I'll have to spin the flywheel many times to pump out
all the condensate that has formed in the cylinder. You just have to keep doing that until the cylinder(s) 
get hot. If you are expecting it to start going after a couple of turns of the wheels, or a few pushes 
along the track, it's probably not going to happen. Lift the whole thing off the track, and spin the wheels a bunch of times (after you know you have steam!).

Again, boiler not too full. Again, use denatured. Again, hurry up! And take off that tutu.
They're flammable. 

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean.

I did some spinning and even more rolling. Difference?

I'll be using denatured alcohol next time and my pencil butane torch is refilled.

No worries about the tu-tu. It's protected with 'Retard-All'. ;D

Unfortunately, the first can I used was 'Repell-All' and I had it pointing in the wrong direction.
Stuff doesn't seem to come off.


----------



## joe d

Hiya Zee

A thought...(I know it's dangerous ;D) maybe hit the cylinders BRIEFLY with your pencil torch to pre-heat them a bit? Be sure to stop short of un-soldering anything.....

Keep at it, you're pretty much there!

Cheers, Joe


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Joe. I was thinking the same.

I forgot to mention that prior to steaming, I ran it on air again. Got it down to 5 psi according to the pressure gauge and so long as I gave it a spin and started it before I sat it down, it tooled along the track. So I'm thinking it's a heat issue...unless I got some of the tu-tu's 'Retard-All' on it. :big:


----------



## joe d

Zeepster

I thought the flame retardant was you clutching a pink frilly fire extinguisher..... :big: :big:


----------



## bearcar1

Retard-all ............. Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}



Just remember Zee', Saint Peter don't count the number of times... ;D

BC1
Jim


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, when using a torch to heat the boiler you should have no safety problem. as far as the boiler goes. Just watch out for the burners filled with flamable liquid though. 

There is a simple explanation why your soldered joints will hold up. 

Water boils at 212 degrees F give or take. Your soldered joints melt at nearly 1000 degrees F. The water will act as a heat sink and take away heat from the joint. 

Have you ever tried to soft solder a wet copper pipe. It don't work.

To prove this there is a simple science experiment you can try.

Take a 20 oz plastic pop bottle and fill it up about 1/2 inch with water. LEAVE THE CAP OFF!!!!!!!!

Then carefully take your torch to the bottom of the bottle, making sure that you are only torching it where the water is.

What will happen is the water will boil, IN A PLASTIC CONTAINER!!

This works because the bottle melts at 400 degrees and the water will not allow it to get above 212.

This can be use in a survival situation when you need to sterlize water.

Kel


EDIT: This is assuming your saftey valve works of course.


----------



## SAM in LA

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Zee, when using a torch to heat the boiler you should have no safety problem. as far as the boiler goes. Just watch out for the burners filled with flamable liquid though.
> 
> There is a simple explanation why your soldered joints will hold up.
> 
> Water boils at 212 degrees F give or take. Your soldered joints melt at nearly 1000 degrees F. The water will act as a heat sink and take away heat from the joint.
> 
> Have you ever tried to soft solder a wet copper pipe. It don't work.
> 
> To prove this there is a simple science experiment you can try.
> 
> Take a 20 oz plastic pop bottle and fill it up about 1/2 inch with water. LEAVE THE CAP OFF!!!!!!!!
> 
> Then carefully take your torch to the bottom of the bottle, making sure that you are only torching it where the water is.
> 
> What will happen is the water will boil, IN A PLASTIC CONTAINER!!
> 
> This works because the bottle melts at 400 degrees and the water will not allow it to get above 212.
> 
> This can be use in a survival situation when you need to sterlize water.
> 
> Kel
> 
> 
> EDIT: This is assuming your saftey valve works of course.



A bit off topic, but this is something we do with new Boy Scouts.

I take a paper cup, fill it with water, put a raw egg in the cup and set it in the fire. The cup will only burn down to the water level and the egg will be boiled. 

SAM


----------



## mklotz

The same thing is happening in your boiler. The metal in contact with the water can't get any hotter than the boiling temperature of the water. This temperature is strongly influenced by the pressure in the boiler. The higher the pressure, the higher the boiling temperature.

The Clausius-Clapeyron equation relates the pressure and temperature. If you want to use it, it's implemented in the STEAMT program on my site.


----------



## bearcar1

I wonder also, what the heat conductance of chrome plating is? Hmmmm.... ???

BC1
Jim


----------



## shred

If it'll run on 5 PSI air, the mechanism and fits should be ok. To me it acts like the burner isn't generating enough steam. 

I would hit the bottom of the boiler with a propane torch instead of the burner as an experiment. If that does it, then all you need is more heat.

Btw, you will need to flip the wheels several times to get condensed and aspirated water out of the steam lines and cylinders, especially if you fill the boiler all the way up with water (2/3rds full is good).

Check for leaks when it's running on air by spraying soapy water around all the joints and bushings.

Of course if you rigged a pressure gauge, you'd know what pressure steam your burner was giving you...


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks all.

Well, it's still a no go.

Denatured alcohol, preheated water, added a bit of butane pencil torch.
Easy to push...but just wouldn't spin...either on or off the track.

That 'Retard-All' is tough stuff.

I'm questioning the pressure gauge showing 5 psi and running on air. I'm thinking the cylinders/piston...or the interface between the cylinders and porting blocks. Not sure where to go from here...worse...I'm running out of time.

I'll probably (i.e. will) give it another go but at some point I'll have to set it aside...more projects are waiting (and not just machining).

poo :'(


----------



## Kermit

Water is a very heavy substance. Perhaps this is just a problem of insufficient horsepower. The pistons in your cylinders are quite small, and the considerable increase of weight when filled with water is probably just to much for such small pistons. It seems to run ok with air power, no?

Any chance you could make a little larger cylinder and pistons for the Loco? I think that would all you would need to get 'er steaming.




Kermit


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kermit. If the pistons are too small, then the design is flawed and no doubt, other builders of this kit will be as disappointed as I. I may be willing to rebuild the cylinders to spec...but I won't build them to a different size/design when I don't know enough nor whether even that would work. If the design is flawed...then I'll take the success I have and go on to something else.

I ran it on air again and if the gauge is right, it's around 5 psi. Call it 6. Certainly, when I cover the air nozzle...there's not a whole lot.

But the 2nd attempt tonight at steam was still a failure. So I'm thinking something else is working against me.

One thing I noticed is that when running on air, or when I spin the wheels, they seem to turn pretty easily. But when I try to steam...it looks like they're binding.

I'm wondering if I still have an issue with the crank pins. I notice that I can pull the cylinders to an angle relative to the porting block. The springs on the pivot pins don't seem very strong. So I'm wondering if the steam is pushing the cylinders out to an angle and that's causing binding down at the crank pins. I'll take a look at that next time. Why not air? Maybe because it happens only at a certain psi?

If I start sounding like I'm grasping at straws...let me know.

Did I mention 'poo'?


----------



## shred

How loose are the springs holding the cylinders on? If you have to run them loose to get the thing to work, then the ports don't line up.

Running on steam will heat things up, which will change dimensions some, but usually towards the 'looser' fit.  Slather the cylinders and pistons in oil too.

Have you ever popped the safety valve with steam? I still think you aren't making enough or it's leaking out as it's made. Anchor the loco down, disconnect the steam line to the cylinders and heat until it pops. This will scare the bejeebers out of you even if you have a pressure gauge rigged. If you don't, you should feel like a bomb disposal tech trying to see his way around an ammo dump by the light of a cigarette lighter.

Here's what it looked like for me (btw, several minutes of heating-time was edited out of the beginning of this video): http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2049.0;attach=1603

Another thing to try-- I forget what design your safety is, but there ought to be a way for you to manually open it (grab the end of the stem with some pliers is what works on mine).  Run a fire for a few minutes and then pull open the safety to see what comes out (wearing appropriate safety gear, of course). No hiss, no steam.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks shred.

That video was very interesting!

I have no adjustment on the pivot pin springs. You just tighten the pivot pins down until the end seats against the frame. Having said that...no one can accuse me of having perfectly concentric pivot pins that fit the perfectly concentric holds in the cylinders.

I can't manually open the safety valve. And I suspect it will never pop on the loco. Primarily because the cylinders will move out from the porting blocks and whatever leaks through the cylinders.

This weekend I'll take a closer look at the pivot pins and the connection to the crank pins. When I was trying to run tonight...I had the distinct feeling that it was fighting itself. And, whenever the wheels stopped (after I push the thing a bit), they stopped very suddenly...as if they suddenly bound.


----------



## doubletop

Zee

A whole heap of good advice and I know you'll do this because being in the intangible world of IT you do this every day. Stop, think analyze and be methodical. I know from my recent experience that I started chasing the next idea and had no record of how many variables I'd introduced by way of messing up a perfectly good setup. Make changes in a way that gives you a route back to where you started and take notes on the way.

It will reduce hours of frustration and you'll end up knowing what fixed it in the end.

Sucking eggs maybe...............

Pete


----------



## spuddevans

Keep at it Zee, we're all routing for you.


On my Paddleducks build, when trying to get it running I found that the key for me was to identify and cure as many points of friction as I could.

I know you will get it going, just stick at it a little at a time. 


Tim


----------



## hobby

Succesfull build so far never the less, when I built my first engine, I had no idea what was binding or why, it didn't feel like anyuthing was binding, it spun freely, and the timing was set on, but a last ditch effort, I took 3in1 oil, and lubed everything that was making contact and every concevialble pivot point, and then it began to work more aqnd more smoothly to the point that it actually started running, if I knew that, I wouldn't of had to rebuilod the valve 3-4 times. 

Did you give everything a good oiling?


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Pete, Tim, and hobby.

I've used oil...different types at different times. Maybe sometimes too much.

So long as there's a question to answer, I'll keep at it. (Well...up to a point. If I have to machine new cylinders and pistons...I'll probably put it aside. Heresy I know but I just don't have the time and my anxiety to move on is starting to boil over. ;D )

I certainly see steam...and there's been improvement each step of the way.
No 'good' reason why it can't go.

There are 3 areas I'm looking at next...

Safety valve. Least likely. But maybe there's a leak that's preventing pressure to build. I don't see anything coming out though.
Phasing of the drive wheels. Possible. It's not near enough to 180.
Binding at the crank pins. Most likely (I can sometimes see it as the wheels stop).

Sorry for the plodding...thanks everyone for hanging in there with me.


----------



## kcmillin

Zee, 

have you tried putting less water in it?, giving it more space to store the steam that is being created.

Kel


----------



## shred

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I have no adjustment on the pivot pin springs. You just tighten the pivot pins down until the end seats against the frame. Having said that...no one can accuse me of having perfectly concentric pivot pins that fit the perfectly concentric holds in the cylinders.


I was thinking the springs that hold the cylinders to the port blocks, sorry.

Anyway, in the spirit of step-by-step debugging, step 1 should be "how much steam pressure is there?". If the answer is "enough", then you can move to debugging motion problems. If there's not enough, you need to fix that before the motion parts will even try to move, no matter how perfect they are. Any old hardware store pressure gauge can work, just put a loop or u-trap in the airline so it doesn't get blasted with live steam.

I know, it's a pain in the rear to faff around with gauges and plumbing when all you want to do is run the thing, but after resisting and pulling my hair out for days, I finally broke down and did it, it turned out to be vital to getting my little loco running.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kel. What I need to do is fill the boiler full, then dump it into a graduated flash so I can measure how much it holds. (Really Zee? Couldn't you just calculate the volume? It's just a cylinder. Sheesh.)

Shred...right...the springs that hold the cylinders to the port blocks. But the pivot pins only go in so far. The pivot pin has a head to it that is larger in diameter than the part that goes through the spring and then the diameter drops further to get through the port block. Then it ends with a screw for going through the frame into the stretcher. That last diameter I mentioned is larger than the hole in the frame so it stops there.

What I was referring to was the head. It's only about 1/16 thick. If there's too much play between it and the cylinder then I think the cylinder can 'wobble' against the port block. That would create a space between the port block and the cylinder and let steam leak. Why I don't have this problem with air (if it is a problem), I don't know.

If I get a chance, I'll run by the hardware store this afternoon (while making a wine run).



			
				shred  said:
			
		

> just put a loop or u-trap in the airline so it doesn't get blasted with live steam.



Ah! I had wondered why I see loops on pipes feeding a pressure gauge. Thanks for that.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

A little video showing the cylinder to port block and crank pin.

Thanks to Costner for lending the voice...but he got the script wrong. First reference to 'crank pin' should be 'pivot pin'. :big: That's what happens when you pay in beer.


----------



## Deanofid

I thought it was William Hurt..

I don't know why it would make a difference on that part in the binding department, whether it ran 
on air or steam. (I mean I really don't know.)

I can't help thinking it just hasn't got up to steam pressure, but I've lost track now. Has it made
enough to pop the safety in your testing yet?

Dean


----------



## bearcar1

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I thought it was William Hurt..



 :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

Frazier Thomas ? ! ? ;D

Z', were you able to obtain a pressure gage on your 'refreshment run'? I have to agree with Dean, it just seems like there isn't enough 'poop in the chute' (as they say in farm country)


BC1
Jim


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Hi Jim n' Dean...heh heh heh




			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> I thought it was William Hurt..





			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Frazier Thomas ?



I said who it was. But thanks...that should cost me less beer next time. :big:

.................

Yes...I got the pressure gauge...not that I needed to. (re: Shout).
But I lack tubing. Fittings I can probably make. But I haven't taken the time to figure out how to connect everything so there may yet be a surprise for me. (Goodie...I like surprises. Don't you? ;D )

Tried looking for some tubing at HD today...but diameter is too big I'm thinking.

Celebrating grand-daughter's 1st birthday tonight. Tomorrow, 'she' has me going to a tile store. Then it's off to work work.

This is not going as planned...


----------



## doubletop

Zee

I'm on the 'you need to check the pressure" team If you've got a digital thermometer you could use that to measure the pressure. Maybe make a modified steam dome with a gland to get the probe securely inside the boiler.

Steam tables

Temp - PSI
Deg F
212.00 - 0.0
216.32 - 1.3
219.44 - 2.3
227.96 - 5.3
240.07 - 10.3
250.33 - 15.3
259.28 - 20.3
267.25 - 25.3
274.44 - 30.3
287.07 - 40.3
297.97 - 50.3

If your meths burner isn't chucking out enough heat somebody has already suggested you could give it a hand with your gas torch and get the safety to blow.

Those pivots look free enough you are going to be able to rock them like that, its the way they work. The crank pins not being exactly 180 out is a red herring I'd say 180ish should be fine. Put the wheels with the pins at top and bottom and not at the end of the strokes. If its got enough pressure they should at least kick a bit.

So more heat required

_(it occurred to me do you have Meths in the US? That denatured stuff sounds like its been neutered and has no lead in its pencil.)_


----------



## Deanofid

DT;
Denatured alcohol is what methylated spirits is called in the U.S. Denatured doesn't mean "neutered".
I don't know where that idea came from. It means it's been made un-drinkable. Ethanol with enough
methanol to make it poisonous. 

Dean


----------



## doubletop

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> DT;
> Denatured alcohol is what methylated spirits is called in the U.S. Denatured doesn't mean "neutered".
> I don't know where that idea came from. It means it's been made un-drinkable. Ethanol with enough
> methanol to make it poisonous.
> 
> Dean



Dean

Sorry was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek but that must have got lost somewhere across the Pacific ;D

Pete


----------



## Deanofid

Ha!  I thought you were serious, Pete. -Natured.. neutered. Kind of sound alike.
Good joke, once it soaked into my tiny brain!  ;D

Dean


----------



## Blogwitch

Zee,

When you build engines, most will run on air quite merrily. Put steam to them and things go bottoms up.

The first things that I adjust or look at when that happens is the pivot points.

Everything has to be perfectly square, say the crank pin to the wheel, the big ends to the crank pin, is the hole thru the big end exactly square?, is the cylinder face square to the big end hole?, is the port face exactly square to the crankpins? Another major thing, when the port faces are working together, the angles can change as the port faces separate slightly during normal running, so you have to build in a slight allowance for that. The way I do that is give a couple of thou clearance on the big end to crank pin, in other words, a slightly sloppy fit.

You will find that these things are not really super critical when running on air, but as soon as the hot stuff is introduced, even a tiny deviation from square will cause untold problems.

I had the same problem with a batch of engines I made, they ran fine on air, on steam they locked up. It was eventually traced to the big end holes being about 2o out of square. It was then that I made a jig that guaranteed squareness, and remade 12 big ends. The engines then ran perfectly.

Just a suggestion.


Bogs


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I'm assuming we're talking about setting a gauge to the complete system. Right? Not just the boiler. If just the boiler then I'm testing the safety valve. I did that with the mountain shock bike and placed the boiler under water so I could check for leakage. (That's not to say I messed up since and the valve needs rechecking.)

So if the gauge shows insufficient pressure...then it's a leak(s) or insufficient heat. 

If it's a leak then it could be the safety valve, the port block to cylinder junction, or the piston. But if it's a leak...then I think air at low psi wouldn't have run the engine.

If it's insufficient heat...then I'm thinking flawed design and I'll be ***.

If the gauge shows sufficient pressure...then it's binding. And the most likely culprit are the crank pins. Maybe pivot pins...



			
				Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Another major thing, when the port faces are working together, the angles can change as the port faces separate slightly during normal running, so you have to build in a slight allowance for that. The way I do that is give a couple of thou clearance on the big end to crank pin, in other words, a slightly sloppy fit.



That's where my thinking has been the last several days.
Thanks Bogs.


----------



## shred

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm assuming we're talking about setting a gauge to the complete system. Right? Not just the boiler. If just the boiler then I'm testing the safety valve. I did that with the mountain shock bike and placed the boiler under water so I could check for leakage. (That's not to say I messed up since and the valve needs rechecking.)
> 
> So if the gauge shows insufficient pressure...then it's a leak(s) or insufficient heat.
> 
> If it's a leak then it could be the safety valve, the port block to cylinder junction, or the piston. But if it's a leak...then I think air at low psi wouldn't have run the engine.


What you're really wanting to test is the steam generating ability of your burner versus the leaks in the system.

Not only can it make steam, but can it make it faster than it gets used or leaks out. Air from the compressor is about infinite, so it can refill what leaks out almost instantly. Getting it to run on low pressure is the first step- the second is running it on low volume.

The meths burner is pretty tried-and-true, so I think there's probably not a fundamental design problem. I suspect you'll find a leak/fit problem somewhere, but this debug flowchart starts with 'is there enough steam?'.

You might also try putting 5psi air into the system and sinking the whole mess in a bucket of water and seeing where air leaks out as well.

Another thing to try would be hosing down all the joints with soapy water once you have a fire up for several minutes.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

shred  said:
			
		

> Not only can it make steam, but can it make it faster than it gets used or leaks out. Air from the compressor is about infinite, so it can refill what leaks out almost instantly.



That makes it clear for me. Thanks shred. I think I knew that but didn't pay it sufficient attention. If it's leaks, it's the safety valve, port faces, or piston. I sure hope it's not the piston.

Is it also possible that I'm too quick to make it run? By spinning wheels and rolling on track could I be letting the steam out before sufficient pressure builds? I had noticed at one point that after letting it sit a while I was getting good steam (leaking from the ports but by that time I was afraid I was running out of water and shut things down).


----------



## arnoldb

> Is it also possible that I'm too quick to make it run? By spinning wheels and rolling on track could I be letting the steam out before sufficient pressure builds? I had noticed at one point that after letting it sit a while I was getting good steam (leaking from the ports but by that time I was afraid I was running out of water and shut things down).



That sounds like what you could be doing wrong Carl. Fire it up and let it sit a while - till you hear the hiss of steam coming from the ports or the safety valve. Then push it slowly forward and backward - just two or three inches at a time; at that point you may get water coming from the exhaust because of condensation in the cylinders. Once the water clears from the cylinders it might take off and run.

Good Luck!

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## kcmillin

I agree with Arnold 100%.

That water you see is normal, as far as my experience that is.

When the boiler is reaching temperature there is condensation in the steam lines and cylinders, along with the splashing water in your boiler there will be some water.

How much water are you putting in the boiler? Don't quote me on this but I think there should be at least 40% of the boilers volume reserved for steam storage.

Think of your "Little" air compressor's tank, and then compare it to your little Loco's boiler, then think of how quick your air compressor cycles when your running it on air.

That little boiler has a big job to do.

Perhaps someone with more experience in the matter can "Shred"  some light on the water to air ratio of the boiler.

Kel


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Arnold and Kel.

I can't wait to have another go!

For the pressure gauge...is the 3/32 OD brass tubing I got for the steam dome okay? I was looking for 1/4" but there is none at HD. I haven't made it to the hobby shop to look there.


----------



## shred

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Thanks Arnold and Kel.
> 
> I can't wait to have another go!
> 
> For the pressure gauge...is the 3/32 OD brass tubing I got for the steam dome okay? I was looking for 1/4" but there is none at HD. I haven't made it to the hobby shop to look there.


You may have trouble making a loop in brass tubing, but pretty much anything should work. Plastic too if it can be kept from melting.

It is possible you're trying to flip the engine over too soon. It takes quite a while to get steam up. Water will start leaking from every orifice, and then that water will start to boil away once it's ready to go. If you don't have any water seepage, one thing I do is drip a little water on the outside of the boiler.. if it doesn't boil as it runs off, the water inside isn't at boiling temp either.

I sometimes overfill my little loco since it has a Goodall valve and no sight glass. In that case, water comes oozing up out of the safety and valves and what all as it warms up, and the first few flips of the cylinder squirts hot water around the place.

Although it's poor practice, and can be fatal in larger sizes, running a tiny boiler like this dry for a brief period isn't the end of the world. You may have to repaint, but think about the soldering temperatures that went into making it and they didn't hurt it any.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I still don't have the appropriate material to make the pressure gauge system. But I'm thinking the problem is not pressure.

It may be that I'm not waiting long enough to get pressure...but it could be something else. When the loco is filled with water and fuel, a little push will have the loco move many inches. It rolls pretty easily. But when I steam it, and I do get steam, the drive wheels seem to lock up. I'm thinking the previous suggestions by some of you may be key here. I have the pistons 180 degrees out of phase. Perhaps they are fighting each other.

I've tried two more times today with no success but some improvement. (I took my Fat Boy torch to it.)

Tomorrow I'm going to change the phasing of the drive wheels and give it another go.

Successful or not...I'm going to have to make a decision. I need to get moving on.

Oh...right...I guess I made that decision. :-\


----------



## Deanofid

Zee, when you think it's time to set it aside, it's time. It runs, and you know it. It looks good, and we all 
know it. You want to do other things in your shop, and the neat thing is, the loco won't mind! Play with
it on air now and then, and work out the steam bugs another time, whenever you feel like it.

You did a great job. I had a lot of fun watching and commenting to this thread. I even liked the wrecks. 
Thanks!

Dean


----------



## Troutsqueezer

I'm with Dean on that one Zee. You've climbed a mountain with this build. You've built a foundation that will serve you well as you expand your activities. That loco is gonna look real fine up there on your mantel. When you retire, it will be there, waiting for you to give it those final tweaks, taking your own sweet time.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you Dean and Trout.

"So...this is it...we're all gonna..." 'say drat'.
(Think Hitch-Hiker's Guide.)

Time to put it aside.

I changed the phasing this morning and it did help. But it still wouldn't go. This afternoon I set it in a vise so that the wheels would be more free to turn. Still better but it wouldn't go. There's heat and steam but not enough pressure. I'm sure it's the cylinders and piston fit. That's what I've always had trouble with and I was expecting the same here.

It's my inexperience and insufficient attention to the true-ness of my lathe. It's one of the things I want to work on. (Er...both things I guess.)

Although a somewhat disappointing end...this has been great fun and has given me the knowledge that I can and will do better as I gain experience. Many many thanks to all of you for following and contributing to this thread. It has meant a lot.

I did manage to learn something about sheet-metal, silver-soldering, and boilers along with a whole slew of things from all of you.

And it did run on air!

As for the next project...it includes:
Gears. How to cut them. I want to continue learning different aspects of this hobby.
Finger-treadle engine. Something I saw when I first joined this forum.
Governors. Always liked them and Cedge, Brian and Firebird have awakened that interest.

So a finger-treadle engine, driving some gears that I hope to cut, that drives a governor. (An issue will be the variable finger speed.) If that works...I got some other ideas.

A 'small' project because I have other things I'd like to do. My garage is getting finished this fall and I want to empty the rest of the basement and set up some woodworking stuff. I want to make bases for the engines, picture frames, and small boxes which is an interest I've had for a long time. (I'm hoping there's room to set up a train set.) I may do a video of the current digs for reference.

Time is a problem. The project at work is going to beta and that will require long hours. In addition, it looks like I'm going to be making several trips to our manufacturing plant in Mexico.

Say....any reason why I couldn't use that boiler with another engine?

Apologies for the disappointment. I hope you all found it entertaining. I certainly did and am very grateful for all the help and interest.

Once 'mini-zeepster' stops crying (he so wanted to ride the choo-choo) I'll get started. :big:


----------



## hobby

Great thread,

And a great running locomotive.

A lot of new machining techniques and learning curves you achieved.

A lot of detail machining on the parts.

All this adds up to a Succesful build....

Congradulations on a well built project...


----------



## SAM in LA

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> So a finger-treadle engine, driving some gears that I hope to cut, that drives a governor. (An issue will be the variable finger speed.) If that works...I got some other ideas.



Zee,

When the governor detects an overspeed condition, have it trip a switch which will energize a taser. That will get your attention and I'll bet the engine will slow down too.

 : :big:

SAM


----------



## Artie

Mate, its been a great ride. And im very glad I caught this train.

its not over, it never is. I also take breaks from projects, its how I maintain my enthusiasm for longer ones. There is not law saying you cant pick this up in 3 months time and have a light bulb light up over your head, inspiration spraying all over the place.... I look forward to that day... and another dancing puppet....

I enjoy several things about your build. The topic was great but mainly your writing style is good, I enjoy the journey as much as the subject....

So my point is.....

Revel in what you have achieved.... you will achieve more....

P.s. if you want to see woodwork, just ask, its my 'other' love..... and Ive just been on a pic frame production line.... having a break from them to!

P.s.s. I do understand about the work infringing upon your leisure time... I'm glad my kids are grown and flown..... 

Well done, 

Rob


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thank you hobby, SAM, and Rob. I very much appreciate your comments.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

And so the tour...

My kids accuse me of sounding like a doofus when I do this kind of thing. And I must admit, it's not how I usually sound (I think). I tell them it's the kid in me trying to get out. So I shall remain true to myself and post it anyway. ;D


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the tour Zee. 

Your right, it does look like alot of computers :big:


The machines look good sittin on such clean benches, not a bit of swarf in sight........ Sheesh....are you making parts for NASA on the side and not telling us ;D

Kel


----------



## Troutsqueezer

That's a nice wrap up video to your exploits so far, Zee. It's nice to get a peek behind the scenes after reading so many posts from members. Truly a comfortable-looking man cave. I've never seen a phone mounted so close to the floor. Is that because the beer and wine storage is nearby? You don't have to answer that... ;D

I'm gonna give you a pass for using a Mac since they use Intel processors now. :big:

Like you, I love my mini mill but I can take or leave the 7x10 lathe. If I get the opportunity I may switch that out for a better one. I'd better do that before I retire.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Kel. The swarf is there. I just didn't take a close up. I do keep it off the floor...wife and kids tend to come down here and I don't want them stepping into it. They don't visit me...it's the fridge (beer) and cabinet (wine) they're after. (I say kids...but they're 26 and 23.)

On the other hand, I now have a 1 year old grand-daughter. I've failed to have my own daughters see the joy of engineering...maybe Sydney will spend time with Poppie.

Thanks Trout. I know what you mean about the Mac. I've been playing around with apps for iPhone...there's no other choice for a development system. As much as I get aggravated with Windows...the Mac too often represents 'being different' for the sake of 'being different'. But that's a whole 'nother forum. ;D And I never got over the early Macs being a closed system and not allowing you to play with the hardware...as little of it as there was. (Except the Apple II...that was a great machine.)

The reality of the phone placement is that it was convenient. Not enough desk space. But it's right next to me. The joke is it's close should I break a leg during machining. :big: Or, as you've alluded to...

I'm looking to go for a Sherline when I've proved to 'T' that this is a real thing (hobby) for me. She seems okay with that...just not the right time.


----------



## Deanofid

I really enjoy the shop tour, Zee. I like hearing a voice put to all your writing, too.
Your place looks nicely laid out, to me. Tools are pretty handy, enough space , and the
grinder well, well away from your precious machine ways! You get an 'A' for that.
The table where your projects set represent a gift you've given yourself in the way of skills.
Well done.
The location of the phone and first aid kit seem to represent forward thinking in the case of
an unhappy event, like if you end up on the floor.  Good preparation skills.
Nice shop all around, I think! You have everything you need to make everything you need.
Many folks would be quite at home there. I sure would.

Thanks!

Dean


----------



## fcheslop

Thanks for the tour Zee really enjoyed it and thanks for sharing you're build it has been a great journey with its ups and downs .I am sure that the problems will be overcome at a later date
Best wishes Frazer


----------



## njl

Yep thanks for shop tour Zee, your shop is just so tidy, are you sure your a programmer? 

I'm sure you'll get the engine sorted for steam soon enough when you pick it up again. Meanwhile you could make it into a nice static on your rolling road and run it in some more.

Thanks for sharing your build it has been a great thread to follow.

Nick


----------



## SAM in LA

Zee,

Very nice shop.

How do you use that phone with it tied to the wall with wire?

 :big:

SAM


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Dean, Frazer, Nick and SAM.

Glad you enjoyed the tour.

Nick...there's more than one kind of code monkey. I'm not one of those Frito eating, Mountain Dew drinking, Jolt slogging monkeys. I'm a Pepsi drinking, Nacho Dorito eating monkey. Well actually, these days it's a coffee monkey. Except in the evenings...then it's my jelly jar. ;D No more Doritos either. 'she' won't let me have any 



			
				SAM in LA  said:
			
		

> How do you use that phone with it tied to the wall with wire?



Reliably.

Oh...you'll remember the fridge in the tour. My brother-in-law is here for a visit. Gave him a tour of the shop. This is the 2nd time a visitor said..."Cool...What's in the fridge?"


----------



## Deanofid

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> No more Doritos either. 'she' won't let me have any



Well, there's a simple solution. Eat puffy Cheetos. Isn't that 'puter geek food, too?

What IS in the fridge. Missed that part on the vid.

Dean


----------



## kcmillin

*1000th POST!!!!!!!*

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Kel


----------



## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> And so the tour...
> 
> My kids accuse me of sounding like a doofus when I do this kind of thing.



At least you have to do something for the kids to respond such. . . 

Good job on the Choo Choo, followed the whole process and your stick to it attitude is a goody. Makes me really miss my little lathe thats buried somewhere in the moved-sort-organize-50 some odd dump runs later-when I find the time pile.

Not the same as doing one myself but ridding along on your travel comes close.

Robert


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## doubletop

I can't believe this is all over; 7 Months, over 1000 posts, nearly 30000 views and you are 99% there. Grab one of those off-limits beers, sit in the couch, think about it for 10 mins. And then get it finished please.

Pete


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## Deanofid

See Zee? Toldja!


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## zeeprogrammer

Dean...if I remember right...I'd said the fridge was "mostly empty". That I couldn't keep beer in it because of daughter. Later I worried that she'd see the video and think I had called her an alcoholic. She's not. She just enjoys a beer now and then. Other than that, the fridge has left-overs and the occasional melon. ;D

Puffy Cheetos...I love them. But pity the idiot that eats those at a keyboard.

Kel...wow. 1000 posts! 

Robert! Thanks for following along. Get your shop together and make something.



			
				Foozer  said:
			
		

> At least you have to do something for the kids to respond such. . .



No effort at all.

Pete. I'm thinking I'm thinking. It's just 10 parts to redo (cylinder, piston head, rod, piston end, and pivot pin..times 2). But I'm going to be busy for a while and the lathe needs to be adjusted. I have no idea how difficult it will be to true the lathe...or if it can be done (by me). For one thing, the tailstock sits high and I can't shim the headstock. I don't have the skill to grind the tailstock down. On the other hand, most of the error in the parts is due to me...not the lathe. So maybe adjusting the lathe the best I can, and being more careful and precise in cutting...I'm thinking I'm thinking.


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## doubletop

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm going to be busy for a while and the lathe needs to be adjusted. I have no idea how difficult it will be to true the lathe...or if it can be done (by me). For one thing, the tailstock sits high and I can't shim the headstock. I don't have the skill to grind the tailstock down.



Sounds like drastic action for a relatively new lathe. Not that I'd have any suggestions for remedy but are you sure? Maybe a picture or two showing the problem may elicit some suggestions for you.

Pete


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## zeeprogrammer

doubletop  said:
			
		

> Maybe a picture or two showing the problem may elicit some suggestions for you.



Funny that. I've been thinking about it all day. Just now came downstairs with a bit of kerosene to clean up the lathe with the intention of taking various pics showing the problem (er...problems) with the alignment of the lathe.

I remember when I joined the forum several posts about twist in the lathe bed and how to mount the lathe on a bench. Being the ham-fisted, twist it/wrench it/hammer it until it submits kind of guy (which is not true...if I say 'dear?' and get one raised eyebrow...I'm outta there...two eyebrows is something else), and more importantly, now that I have some 'experience', I'm interested in seeing how I can improve the lathe.

Keep in mind...the lathe might be fine. I may just need to be better at machining.

You're not going to let me go, are you Pete? :big:


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## doubletop

No I'm not; you've got your audience on the edge of their seats and you are just going to walk off the stage? I don't think so....


Pete


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## zeeprogrammer

doubletop  said:
			
		

> No I'm not; you've got your audience on the edge of their seats and you are just going to walk off the stage? I don't think so....



Kind of a long show. And I ran out of popcorn...I don't want people resorting to what's under their seats. :big:

Thanks Pete.


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## doubletop

OK so lets just call it an intermission. Audience can go to the bar and the main act can freshen up.

..............then its back into it for the finale

Pete


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## zeeprogrammer

doubletop  said:
			
		

> OK so lets just call it an intermission. Audience can go to the bar and the main act can freshen up.
> 
> ..............then its back into it for the finale
> 
> Pete



Okay. Gives me a chance to repair the stage and adjust the lighting.

It'll be a long intermission. I'm manning the bar. :big:


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## hobby

If what you find is the tailstock, way out of alignment, then work can be done on the bottom of the tailstock, but if it's too much of a factory defect, then littlemachineshop.com has all the spare parts, for your lathe.


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## SAM in LA

hobby  said:
			
		

> If what you find is the tailstock, way out of alignment, then work can be done on the bottom of the tailstock, but if it's too much of a factory defect, then littlemachineshop.com has all the spare parts, for your lathe.



If it is a factory defect and the parts do not meet the published specifications, shouldn't you go back to the manufacture for warranty?

SAM


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## zeeprogrammer

SAM in LA  said:
			
		

> If it is a factory defect and the parts do not meet the published specifications, shouldn't you go back to the manufacture for warranty?



Bought it a year and a half ago. At the time I wouldn't have known if it was out of spec. Since then, I've banged it up pretty good and even modified it (said modification not working too well).

And, given the manufacturer/vendor, I suspect I could get something the same or even worse. If it comes to it, I'll get a replacement from Little Machine Shop. They're a good vendor and if I need to swap out a new one...I'm sure they'll be a big help.

Thanks SAM.


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## b.lindsey

What a great tour Zee. Wow, you have lots of space too...I am envious  If you do eventually go the route of Sherline, I don't think you will be disappointed though you might lose some size capabilities. The accuracy is there though!! Just factor in some extra $$ over time for accessories.

Thanks for sharing the shop video.

Bill


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## doubletop

doubletop  said:
			
		

> Zee
> 
> If you need more balls _(OK we'll skip the innuendo)_ just go to your local bike store. They'll have heaps of new ones in all the standard sizes. I think I paid $3 for a bag of 20. That may or may not be cheap but its a convenient source.
> 
> Pete



*DON'T DO THIS IT'S A BAD SUGGESTION *- SORRY

Bike ball bearings aren't stainless and if you use them in safety valves they rust and seize. How do I know? got my Rob Roy up to 80 psi and had nothing from the 2 safety's. Gave the plunger a tug with some pliers and a gush of rusty steam came out. 

If you've used bike shop ball bearing in your safety valves take them out and throw them away. Please.

Sorry about that

Pete


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## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Bill.

Don't be sorry Pete. I had no idea. Thanks for that.


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## zeeprogrammer

My sad state of affairs...







As you all know, I'm in the midst of some renovation and a bunch of stuff has invaded my shop. Including, squash and tomatoes everywhere.

I hate squash.
But she makes a killer salsa and tomato soup. (That's a 'neener' to you know who you are.)

Unfortunately she doesn't do a good job of rotating recent harvests. Something smells down here...and it's not the well known fragrance of 'me'. I know 'me' and prefer it (although others may not).

It's nearly November and tomatoes are still coming in. But she's having to fight off the wildlife as they prepare for winter.

Sometimes I put a dab of oil on my hands...just to get the smell. (I mean really, I like 'me' but there are times...)


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## bearcar1

A dab of oil on your hands ??? ??? ???

Are you certain it is just for the smell *ahem*   



 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

(sorry Z') extra ripe veggies can get to be a bit on the aromatic side. My wife has a thing for tomatoes and every once in a while one will become fragrant, I can tell as soon as I come into the kitchen. She usually is very good about checking each one over alomost on a daily basis, I find it amusing. "has it changed color or position in the last 12 hrs" is my normal comment. But hey, it makes her happy so what am I to say anything.

BC1
Jim


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## arnoldb

Rof} Rof}

Carl, better spread some of that oil on your lathe and mill as well; tomato vapor will make your tools rust....

And NO - don't try decorative machining on the squash - there's stuff in the kitchen to make it into pumpkin pie


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## Maryak

A wee drop too much Martini and you end up with a wee drop of oil on your hands. 

Ah Zee my friend, how can we help but admire you and your dedication. ???

Popeye, tools and Olive Oil keep nagging at the back of my mind.

Best Regards
Bob


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## zeeprogrammer

Rats.




And thanks Arnold...you may have given me a way to get these veggies out of here.


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## mklotz

The only way to make squash edible is to feed it to a pig and eat the pig.


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## Brian Rupnow

Mklotz--I agree 100%--And Zuchinnis are up ther with them!!!


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## Foozer

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Rats.
> 
> a way to get these veggies out of here.



Looks like yer misses is encouraging the building of a veggie cannon.

Robert


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## bearcar1

Or a smaller version to shoot say olives? But then there would be nothing left for those occasional(?)  cocktails. If you did, would those be with pimentos or with the pit? hmmm. decisions, decisions.

BC1
Jim


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## mklotz

The only proper thing to do with squash is to "chunk" them...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4JUZHiiNWQ[/ame]

and, appropriately enough, it's the punkin chunkin season right now.


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## zeeprogrammer

Bob and Jim...takes more than a 'wee drop' or 'dab'...or used to. 

No arguments about the squash.
You can keep cooked zuchinni...but she makes an awesome zuchinni bread.

Hm...if I start taking a few of veggies out at a time...I wonder at what level she'll notice.
What am I saying? She's got favorites. If I pick the wrong one...
If my posts suddenly stop, you'll know I did not 'choose wisely'.


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## bearcar1

I can just see the headlines in the morning newspapers

"His body was found, lightly oiled and under a pile of zuchinni and tomato. It is believed he fell victim to an angry mob wielding mass amounts of pesto sauce. If witness any such activities or have any information pertaining to such events, remain inside, lock your doors and contact your local authorities at 1-800-wherethehellaremyveggies" 

 :big:


And who would have thunk you could chuck a pumpkin so far? Ah the things we dream up just to entertain ourselves. ;D

BC1
Jim


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## Deanofid

'

Oh my gosh!
You're awash
In Squash!




			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> But she makes a killer salsa and tomato soup. (That's a 'neener' to you know who you are.)



Hmmm... ?
Nasty vegetables. We hates them!


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## Troutsqueezer

If you had something like...oh...I dunno....a toy steam loco in there with boxcars or something like that, you could load them up with vegetables and watch them go round the track. :hDe:


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## zeeprogrammer

Bums.
You're all bums.

You should be ashamed pickin' on a poor wanna-be engine modeler who just wants to get in his shop and make something.

And I'm such a nice guy! And pretty! Once I've had my coffee...and I'm dressed.

Bums. All of you.

 :big:

Stinkin' bums.


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