# Torch for silver solder.



## Iampappabear (Feb 20, 2021)

Planning ahead on my "Farm Boy" build, I plan on using silver solder to assemble the crankshaft, will I be able to do this with a regular propane torch or move up to something larger?  Oxy acetylene would obviously best but I don't really want to go there.  I will be procuring some fire bricks to build some sort of partial enclosure to keep the heat confined to a smaller area.

Thanking you in advance.

Colin


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## kwoodhands (Feb 20, 2021)

Victor torch is a good investment. The hose connects to a propane tank used for barbecues. Lowes among others offers  a $19.00 fill up. I do not recall what the initial cost of the tank is. You get two torch heads, the smaller one is about the same size as a Bernzomatic torch .The larger head is about 1" or more in diameter and is good for heavy duty hard soldering ( silver solder).
Actual fire bricks are a heat sink. They are fine for a base but what you need are insulating brick. These brick reflect the heat back on the part. They are very light in weight white in color and break easily.
Broken bricks can be cemented together with a special cement used to make molds of refractory cement.
I would buy 6 fire bricks and 6 insulating ( refractory) bricks. I bought my firebricks at a brickyard, the refractory bricks I bought online as there was not a single supplier in my area.
mike


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## stihl1master (Feb 21, 2021)

I did get a set of the from Amazon at 3 time the price.
Then I saw these SAME thing on Bangood. Got a second set.
I'm in love with them,


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## Steamchick (Feb 22, 2021)

I have used fire-bricks (Broken pieces from a coal fire back) without any problems for making a local hearth around the part. These sit in a larger hearth which is simply a few old bricks from electric storage heaters sat on the bench. (They have been there 30 years or so!).  2 make the base and 4 make walls around the outside. Great for small jobs with a single 2kW blowlamp. DO NOT USE HOUSE BRICKS _ THEY CAN EXPLODE WITH HEAT!
In fact I have another 10 storage-heater bricks that I use on a "temporary" bench for larger jobs. (model boilers mostly), where I have the space to use up to 4 blowlamps to develop a decent heat for the silver soldering of larger heavier items. I also have some large tins for filling with sand around 3/4 of a boiler for insulation. That also holds the job very securely. pieces of firebrick are used to localise the heat around the working part of the job.
I use 2 or 3 Paraffin blowlamps for "warming" the job, and a second-hand Sievert Blow-torch for larger jobs - from a 7Kg. Propane cylinder with regulator to 20psi. I also have a decent sized Swedish petrol blowlamp, as storing petrol safely is easy in my motorcycle... and Petrol is relatively cheap for fuel. (Paraffin ~£2/litre, Petrol £1.20/litre, Propane £3/litre! Disposable Canisters of Butane ~£7/litre).
I know the storage heater bricks "soak" a lot of heat, but the dense refractory seems to get hot on the surface and does not appear to penetrate far. For my boiler work, I like to cover the whole job in the hearth after doing some silver soldering, to allow the heat to soak and de-stress the job with slow cooling. Otherwise the huge contraction forces can break the job just joined.
the most important things I would stress:

Ensure you have a safe work-place - free from other flammable materials, etc. 
Have a fire extinguisher to hand. I heard of a guy that "did a quickey" without his regular safety checks in place, dropped a red-hot lump of metal from the tongs onto his foot, and while he attended to his burnt ankle (much hopping and cursing!), the metal ignited the wooden floor - and it cost the whole garage/workshop!
Check ventilation (soldering flux fumes are toxic!) and free access/egress from the hot-work zone.
WEAR WELDERS' Leather protection. - I have an apron, gauntlets, and even a sleeve if I think I may need it. A job in a hearth gives off a lot of infra-red heat as well as a lot of gas exhaust heat. - 8kw into the job means you have the equivalent of 3 domestic room heaters within arm's reach while you are working. You will get hot! Even use aluminium foil to reflect heat from fingers of gauntlets, etc. - the backs of you fingers holding the flux applicator, solder and blow-lamp will over-heat and stop you from finishing the job properly otherwise.
Wear safety glasses! Occasionally a speck of dirt or something can "pop" and send very hot particles into you eye otherwise. Can be VERY painful.. I know someone who lost an eye that way once. 
You need more heat than you think. If you get the job hot, but not quite hot enough, you have to stop and start again. Very frustrating. So use the biggest and best heating arrangement, as you can turn down the heat input, but can't turn it up more when working. Butane can be frustrating as the pressure drops noticeably with gas container temperature below 10 degrees C. It may be OK at the start of a job, then when you try to get the "red" heat, it just fails to get hot enough for silver solder to flow, because the canister has cooled itself! - So I use that gas blow-lamp to light the petrol blow-lamp for a proper job. Flame is slightly bigger, hotter and much more reliable. The large Propane blow-lamp is for use when I need to get the cylinder out of storage for a multi-lamp job. (Quick to turn ON or OFF and adjust when in use, while the paraffin lamps do the pre-heating.).
Ensure you have a sensible secure set-up. Nothing worse than finishing a job to find it has slipped in joining, so you have a crooked crank or something! Often a vertical set-up will point gravity in a direction that holds the job right, without sag when red-hot and everything is loose. I use spare lumps of cast iron as "steadies", to wedge smaller lighter jobs to keep them from moving while soldering.
Oh, and "Cleanliness, cleanliness, cleanliness" in the joint. (Plenty of flux - it washes off afterwards).
Correct selection of fits (0.002~0.004" clearance for silver solder, NOT a close fit!), selection of solder grade and flux for the job and materials.
Conclusion: Done properly, this is a very satisfying process, and one I enjoy. Hope you do too!
K2


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## Steamchick (Feb 22, 2021)

There are some sensible Blow-lamps on e#@y, etc. not too pricey.








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But I use: something like this: T3 NEW HEATING TORCH SET PROPANE GAS BLOW PLUMBER ROOFING SOLDERING REGULATOR  | eBay
etc.
K2


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## terryd (Feb 22, 2021)

Iampappabear said:


> Planning ahead on my "Farm Boy" build, I plan on using silver solder to assemble the crankshaft, will I be able to do this with a regular propane torch or move up to something larger?  Oxy acetylene would obviously best but I don't really want to go there.  I will be procuring some fire bricks to build some sort of partial enclosure to keep the heat confined to a smaller area.
> 
> Thanking you in advance.
> 
> Colin


Hi Colin,

The best torch depends on where you live, here in the UK sievert are thought to be the Rolls Royce of propane torches.  I wouldn't touch oxy/gas torches as they can provide far too much heat unless you are making large boilers needing 3mm copper and above, and then use a large setup which allows a 'soft 'flame.  In over 50 years of silver soldering I've never needed anything bigger than a propane torch, occasionally with forced air, I've only ever used oxy/gas when welding steel and grey cast iron.

I personally wouldn't use 'fire' bricks as they are designed to absorb heat whereas specialist refractory bricks are intended to reflect heat which increases the heat back on to the job in hand, bricks such as those in space heaters are intended to absorb heat for later use, this means that less heat is available for the silver soldering and you use more gas.  I had this discussion on a forum some years ago and was supported by a specialist supplier of materials and hardware for silver soldering.  It is much better to make the relatively small investment in proper refractories than using any old 'fire' bricks.

TerryD


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## Steamchick (Feb 22, 2021)

Thanks Terry. While I have used old firebrick from scrap fireplaces, and ex-storage heater bricks (and never had a problem), I can see the point of the expert advice. When I manage to get some proper refractories I'll consign my old stuff to the hardcore tip!
Do you have any names or re fences for the correct refractories? I'll  be scrapping an old electric muffle furnace soon. Does that have the right stuff? The rectangular chamber brick would become red hot when in use. It is surrounded by small blocks of refractory brick.
K2


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## terryd (Feb 22, 2021)

Hi K2,

As you are in the UK there is a company who sell vermiculite blocks for this purpose which I have used in the past (a friends brazing hearth) called CuP alloys but there are lots of jewellers suppliers who have similar., I've soldered small jobs on a specialist compressed charcoal block.  I use the white refractories which I recovered from an old professional brazing hearth which was scrapped and they have lasted me many years.  I suspect that your furnace refractory is the same type of stuff, they do glow red hot as that is the heat being reflected.  

Once you have the blocks from your muffle furnace a good test is is to heat one end and carefully feel the other end, you should be able to pick it up while the hot end is red as the proper materials are poor conductors of heat unlike firebricks which absorb heat throughout - but do be careful of course.

Start here: - Shop All Products | CuP Alloys | www.cupalloys.co.uk

But do research for the best deal.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## kuhncw (Feb 22, 2021)

You might consider an air/fuel torch such as the   Smith Air/Acetylene Handi-Heet Outfit NE835A.  You  have to deal with acetylene,  but not oxygen.

I've found this torch and an array of tips to be very well suited to silver brazing over a wide range of part sizes.  The torch can give a very soft and quite flame, unlike the roar of my propane Turbo Torch.

Chuck


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## peterfalm (Feb 23, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> I have used fire-bricks (Broken pieces from a coal fire back) without any problems for making a local hearth around the part. These sit in a larger hearth which is simply a few old bricks from electric storage heaters sat on the bench. (They have been there 30 years or so!).  2 make the base and 4 make walls around the outside. Great for small jobs with a single 2kW blowlamp. DO NOT USE HOUSE BRICKS _ THEY CAN EXPLODE WITH HEAT!
> In fact I have another 10 storage-heater bricks that I use on a "temporary" bench for larger jobs. (model boilers mostly), where I have the space to use up to 4 blowlamps to develop a decent heat for the silver soldering of larger heavier items. I also have some large tins for filling with sand around 3/4 of a boiler for insulation. That also holds the job very securely. pieces of firebrick are used to localise the heat around the working part of the job.
> I use 2 or 3 Paraffin blowlamps for "warming" the job, and a second-hand Sievert Blow-torch for larger jobs - from a 7Kg. Propane cylinder with regulator to 20psi. I also have a decent sized Swedish petrol blowlamp, as storing petrol safely is easy in my motorcycle... and Petrol is relatively cheap for fuel. (Paraffin ~£2/litre, Petrol £1.20/litre, Propane £3/litre! Disposable Canisters of Butane ~£7/litre).
> I know the storage heater bricks "soak" a lot of heat, but the dense refractory seems to get hot on the surface and does not appear to penetrate far. For my boiler work, I like to cover the whole job in the hearth after doing some silver soldering, to allow the heat to soak and de-stress the job with slow cooling. Otherwise the huge contraction forces can break the job just joined.
> ...


Very useful info thank you. Just going through the trials and tribulations of getting enough heat to solder my boiler.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2021)

peterfalm said:


> Very useful info thank you. Just going through the trials and tribulations of getting enough heat to solder my boiler.


In the years when Dodos existed, I qualified as a Certified Welder and it is so long ago that I would not dare to tell people how to suck eggs now.
One thing did emerge was the use of preparing the joints with silver solder paste.
Hope this helps 

Norman


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## Steamchick (Feb 23, 2021)

peterfalm said:


> Very useful info thank you. Just going through the trials and tribulations of getting enough heat to solder my boiler.


Hi Peter: For a 4" diameter Cornish boiler, 8inches long, I use this set-up: 
Set the boiler on at least 1 inch of sand, in a steel container so I can fill with at least 1 inch on sand all around, an d only 1/4 of the boiler is sticking-out for working-on. Then some bits of fire-brick around 1/2 of the exposed boiler to act as a shield / heat-reflector. 2 wet-fuel blow-lamps (about 2kW each) on the exposed sides, with flames wrapping around the curve of the boiler from front to sides - one lamp each side. These flames finally imping on the firebrick at the back. This whole is inside a 3-sided hearth made from the large firebricks I use. Actually touching the large steel sand-tin. These walls come about 2 or 3 inches above the top surface of the boiler. I then use the large propane burner (another 2 or 3 kW?) on the top exposed face to heat and do the silver soldering. You have to be careful that the exhaust from one flame does not affect another burner. All 3 need fresh air to breath! - As do I. 
It may seem a lot of clart to some, but it is a formula that means I don't need someone else's hands holding blow-lamps, as the paraffin lamps give me a half-hour or so of flame from something I can set in place and it won't be dragged-off by hoses, or risk overheating the fuel canister! I keep the brass pressure vessels polished to help them reflect the heat and keep the paraffin cool. (Sometimes "Old" technology is really good!). I'll try and get a photo next time If I can find my third hand... Must have put it somewhere...
When the silver solder has flowed as it should, I stop and put a cover (metal saucepan lid) over the whole hot assembly to reflect heat back down and keep the job from cooling rapidly. Actually, I'll leave it for at least 1/2 hour as there is a lot of heat to dissipate - slowly - so as not to stress anything and crack newly made joints. Just a final word, the hand-held blow-lamp needs to play inside the flue tubes so they get nearly as hot as the outside, otherwise differential heating of flue tubes versus outer-shell can cause cracking of joints when cooled. I did this a few time when quenching a "hot" job! - Before I learned from the bad experience!
Because of the heat radiated from the hottest jobs, I use a leather welders apron, welders leather gloves, sometimes with aluminium foil wrapped around fingers - especially on the hand with the blow-lamp where the back of the gloves get very hot from the hand close to the job and not moving. It is a nuisance to have to stop and remove a hot glove because the fingers holding the blow-lamp are getting burning hot, usually just when the solder is about to flow... so you have to re-set foil on the gloves and start again!
I also wear safety glasses. - Wear for 10 minutes or so to warm them "in situ" before starting as otherwise they may fog with the moisture from the flames' exhaust. Embarrassing when you can't see the job or flames!
Enjoy!
K2


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## wazrus (Feb 23, 2021)

Iampappabear said:


> Planning ahead on my "Farm Boy" build, I plan on using silver solder to assemble the crankshaft, will I be able to do this with a regular propane torch or move up to something larger?  Oxy acetylene would obviously best but I don't really want to go there.  I will be procuring some fire bricks to build some sort of partial enclosure to keep the heat confined to a smaller area.
> 
> Thanking you in advance.
> 
> Colin


Silver solder with LP gas torches is fine with LPG-air torches as sort of ancillary heat sources. For many years, I have always had an oxygen supply and used oxy-propane as my main heating source at point of application. Oxy-propane is often the choice in industry for cutting and indeed I have flame-cut many steel wheel blanks from mild steel, usually of 20-25mm thickness. Of course, thicker steel can be cut and I have cut up to 50mm on odd occasions. 
The extra heat of the oxy-propane flame I find indispensable when soldering copper. Standard oxy-acetylene brazing tips can be used and they may be little bit difficult to light, but there are specialised tips, which seem to differ from the oxy-acetylene tips by having a small recess, or counterbore at the tip.
Besides the usual tips, I also use an oxy-propane heating tip, which has a flame of around 25mm diameter and a stem around 300mm long. very handy when working close to a very hot lump of copper. I have also 'made my own' heating tips, with still longer stems, primarily, of course, to keep my distance from that very hot surface. I have also made some long -stem air-LPG torches for the same reason and these often have very large flames, with enormous gas consumption, but also have very high heating capacity and sound like a 747 at takeoff. As others have mentioned, the answer is heat, heat, heat and I do use three or four or so 'stationary' LPG torches around the job, with another in my left hand, keeping the right hand for the oxy-propane torch. It's a noisy, hot, job!
By the way, my oxy supply is from an 'E' size cylinder: plenty for more than one or two biggish jobs. Refills are years apart.
Some will say that the type of flame is unsuited to some tasks and this is quite true if you contemplate bronze welding of steel. The bronze weld will be brittle and easily cracked, but for silver brazing, the oxy-propane flame is the ants' pants.
Good luck with it all and heat, heat, heat!

Wazrus


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## mecanotrain (Feb 23, 2021)

salutous,
J'ai travaillé 40 ans à Motorola - Toulouse (France). La sécurité des personnes était une priorité pour l'entreprise.
Aujourd'hui à la retraite, je continue à l'appliquer chez moi dans mon atelier.


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## goldstar31 (Feb 23, 2021)

mecanotrain said:


> salutous,
> J'ai travaillé 40 ans à Motorola - Toulouse (France). La sécurité des personnes était une priorité pour l'entreprise.
> Aujourd'hui à la retraite, je continue à l'appliquer chez moi dans mon atelier.



Thank you for your greeting and we  or I note that you worked for 40 years at Motorola in Toulouse until you retired.
I guess that you knew about 'Soudure' in the course of your work.

Sadly, I have lost most of my French but my son studied French in Bescancon on the Jura but occupied out pied a terre in the Savoie and then went on as a stagiare in  Momtlelier until he came back to Englang after buying  house in the Dordogne.  
Like yourself, I am in 'lockdown' depuis 13mois


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## peterfalm (Feb 24, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Peter: For a 4" diameter Cornish boiler, 8inches long, I use this set-up:
> Set the boiler on at least 1 inch of sand, in a steel container so I can fill with at least 1 inch on sand all around, an d only 1/4 of the boiler is sticking-out for working-on. Then some bits of fire-brick around 1/2 of the exposed boiler to act as a shield / heat-reflector. 2 wet-fuel blow-lamps (about 2kW each) on the exposed sides, with flames wrapping around the curve of the boiler from front to sides - one lamp each side. These flames finally imping on the firebrick at the back. This whole is inside a 3-sided hearth made from the large firebricks I use. Actually touching the large steel sand-tin. These walls come about 2 or 3 inches above the top surface of the boiler. I then use the large propane burner (another 2 or 3 kW?) on the top exposed face to heat and do the silver soldering. You have to be careful that the exhaust from one flame does not affect another burner. All 3 need fresh air to breath! - As do I.
> It may seem a lot of clart to some, but it is a formula that means I don't need someone else's hands holding blow-lamps, as the paraffin lamps give me a half-hour or so of flame from something I can set in place and it won't be dragged-off by hoses, or risk overheating the fuel canister! I keep the brass pressure vessels polished to help them reflect the heat and keep the paraffin cool. (Sometimes "Old" technology is really good!). I'll try and get a photo next time If I can find my third hand... Must have put it somewhere...
> When the silver solder has flowed as it should, I stop and put a cover (metal saucepan lid) over the whole hot assembly to reflect heat back down and keep the job from cooling rapidly. Actually, I'll leave it for at least 1/2 hour as there is a lot of heat to dissipate - slowly - so as not to stress anything and crack newly made joints. Just a final word, the hand-held blow-lamp needs to play inside the flue tubes so they get nearly as hot as the outside, otherwise differential heating of flue tubes versus outer-shell can cause cracking of joints when cooled. I did this a few time when quenching a "hot" job! - Before I learned from the bad experience!
> ...


Very many thanks for that info


Steamchick said:


> Hi Peter: For a 4" diameter Cornish boiler, 8inches long, I use this set-up:
> Set the boiler on at least 1 inch of sand, in a steel container so I can fill with at least 1 inch on sand all around, an d only 1/4 of the boiler is sticking-out for working-on. Then some bits of fire-brick around 1/2 of the exposed boiler to act as a shield / heat-reflector. 2 wet-fuel blow-lamps (about 2kW each) on the exposed sides, with flames wrapping around the curve of the boiler from front to sides - one lamp each side. These flames finally imping on the firebrick at the back. This whole is inside a 3-sided hearth made from the large firebricks I use. Actually touching the large steel sand-tin. These walls come about 2 or 3 inches above the top surface of the boiler. I then use the large propane burner (another 2 or 3 kW?) on the top exposed face to heat and do the silver soldering. You have to be careful that the exhaust from one flame does not affect another burner. All 3 need fresh air to breath! - As do I.
> It may seem a lot of clart to some, but it is a formula that means I don't need someone else's hands holding blow-lamps, as the paraffin lamps give me a half-hour or so of flame from something I can set in place and it won't be dragged-off by hoses, or risk overheating the fuel canister! I keep the brass pressure vessels polished to help them reflect the heat and keep the paraffin cool. (Sometimes "Old" technology is really good!). I'll try and get a photo next time If I can find my third hand... Must have put it somewhere...
> When the silver solder has flowed as it should, I stop and put a cover (metal saucepan lid) over the whole hot assembly to reflect heat back down and keep the job from cooling rapidly. Actually, I'll leave it for at least 1/2 hour as there is a lot of heat to dissipate - slowly - so as not to stress anything and crack newly made joints. Just a final word, the hand-held blow-lamp needs to play inside the flue tubes so they get nearly as hot as the outside, otherwise differential heating of flue tubes versus outer-shell can cause cracking of joints when cooled. I did this a few time when quenching a "hot" job! - Before I learned from the bad experience!
> ...


Very many thanks Steamchick. Interesting about the sand and paraffin blow lamps. I have a few of those including a huge one if I can get them working.


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## bluejets (Feb 24, 2021)

At the risk of having missed it in all the above, I'll add another "must do" for a satisfactory finish.
Use cadmium bearing silver solder.
Still available in Aus at least in a range of differing melting point temperatures.


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## nealeb (Feb 24, 2021)

The world seems divided into two - those who insist that only the old and generally banned Cd-bearing solders ("the only way to get the stuff to flow into a joint properly") should be used and those who are happy with modern, widely-available, non-Cd silver solders. Personally, I've used Easiflo grades in the past (in a well-ventilated space) and although I still have the odd stick or two used for small jobs, I generally use non-Cd silver solders. Even as a fairly inexperienced silver-solderer, I have had no problems with the newer formulations except with one particular lump of phosphor-bronze from an unknown source and which might well have had some lead for free cutting - and leaded materials are notorious for being "difficult," not to say nigh-on impossible to silver-solder.

My only heating equipment is a Sievert propane-air torch with a range of interchangeable burners from "needle flame" to "small dragon" which have been sufficient to date. When I eventually get round to my 5" loco boiler, I suspect that I shall be calling on fellow club members to help me with the heating... The Sievert kit isn't cheap but it does work well.


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## terryd (Feb 24, 2021)

nealeb said:


> The world seems divided into two - those who insist that only the old and generally banned Cd-bearing solders ("the only way to get the stuff to flow into a joint properly") should be used and those who are happy with modern, widely-available, non-Cd silver solders. Personally, I've used Easiflo grades in the past (in a well-ventilated space) and although I still have the odd stick or two used for small jobs, I generally use non-Cd silver solders. Even as a fairly inexperienced silver-solderer, I have had no problems with the newer formulations except with one particular lump of phosphor-bronze from an unknown source and which might well have had some lead for free cutting - and leaded materials are notorious for being "difficult," not to say nigh-on impossible to silver-solder.
> 
> My only heating equipment is a Sievert propane-air torch with a range of interchangeable burners from "needle flame" to "small dragon" which have been sufficient to date. When I eventually get round to my 5" loco boiler, I suspect that I shall be calling on fellow club members to help me with the heating... The Sievert kit isn't cheap but it does work well.


Hi Nealeb,

I agree with your sentiments entirely.  I have too few years left to mess about with heavy metals such as cadmium and the Sievert kit that I have has never let me down and well worth the investment.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## bluejets (Feb 24, 2021)

All I can say is, when you get to the 5" boiler, you will find out the crappy non_-cadmium simply will not flow and you will find out at the worst possible time.
Phospher-bronze rods are an entirely different system.


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## nealeb (Feb 24, 2021)

To clear up any misunderstanding - my problem was silver-soldering a machined phosphor-bronze component to another brass component. I just could not get the SS to flow on to the bronze. I wasn't using phosphorus-bearing rods - as you say, a different kettle of fish.

The problem with learning from someone else's experience comes when two different groups of people have such different experiences! Should I listen to someone who says "no way - doesn't work" or someone who says "don't know what they're complaining about - works fine for me." On the non-cadmium-bearing issue, there are enough people who say it works that I'm inclined to believe them - and my only small-scale boiler work to date bears that out. I can't believe that a large boiler will be using some magically different kind of copper, so except for, maybe, heating requirements it's not obvious to me why my experience to date won't scale.

There seems to be a whole bunch of beliefs around silver-soldering that, in my experience, just don't seem to be true. Like, must degrease surfaces and avoid touching them with your hands thereafter. Nope, not true for me - I might give parts a quick wipe over with kitchen paper if they are particularly grubby but the brass I was working with a couple of days ago didn't even get that - after handling, I assembled the two pieces together, fluxed, heated, and the SS flowed beautifully into the joint. Similarly, read the model engineering magazines from many years back and the recommendation seemed to be "ream the holes accurately to fit the tubes, file three or four nicks around the edge to let the SS flow through." Well, maybe, but the more modern recommendation of aiming for a 3-4 thou gap all round (which does, to be fair, mean that you need to look at clamping arrangements to keep everything in place) gives perfect joints. Well, it does for me using non-Cd silver-solder!

I personally do not know any professional boiler-makers but I don't think that any of them in the UK will be using Cd-bearing SS. Now, their heating capabilities might be different - more likely to see oxy-propane or oxy-acetylene (as per Alec Farmer's classic book from many years ago) - but I see that as a learning opportunity. What I just don't know - yet, and it's not that easy to find out - is how much heat is going to be required for my "big" boiler. I've read some useful info in this thread so far re protective clothing and that's something that I have not really needed with my smaller projects to date. A good chance to learn from other's experience!


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## terryd (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi Bluejets,
and all *I* can say is that is not my experience,

TerryD


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## awake (Feb 24, 2021)

Yes - all we can safely claim is what we ourselves have experienced! Whether or not someone else's experience will match ... well, that's why they came up with the acronym, YMMV.


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## wazrus (Feb 24, 2021)

My next boiler, if I live that long, will be of 7" diameter out of 4mm copper. I've done three others, around 5" diameter, two in 4mm copper and one in 3mm. Mostly, I have used 45% silver, with some attachments using tobin bronze, where there might be a likelihood of 'de-soldering' with subsequent heats. The 7" diameter job is right at the limit of the AMBSC specs - or I think it was - beyond which the boiler became a certifiable pressure vessel. Like others, I have had  difficulty with cadmium-free silver solder and _always_ make sure I've got cad-bearing. I've bought the stuff both in Australia and in Hong Kong and the prices, although some years apart, were comparable. But heat and more heat is the operative term: copper has amazing conductivity, as we've all found out. Yes, I have a hearth with firebrick lumps and some coke and this works well, but it's a nuisance when a larger lump of copper, at near red heat, has to be manipulated, so my 'rig' is often the stationary LPG torches on surrounding stands with, as I've said, the oxy-LPG wand at hand. I'm usually a one-man band, so too much fumbling is not allowed. For model boilermaking information, I would strongly recommend the Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee's (AMBSC) codes. i believe that the AMBSC codes have become a sort of (de Facto) 'standard'.


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 25, 2021)

Recently I had a lot of success with 55% silver... but when I tried 35% silver found it to be completely different... as you say, it doesn't  flow so well. worth the extra cost of 55% stuff to finish my 4 inch boiler!
But we can't buy cadmium in the UK.
K2


----------



## chrisv (Feb 25, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi Nealeb,
> 
> I agree with your sentiments entirely.  I have too few years left to mess about with heavy metals such as cadmium and the Sievert kit that I have has never let me down and well worth the investment.
> 
> ...


Hi Terry,
             Is the kit you use one with flexible tube/s to the gas canister or does the burner part screw direct onto smaller gas canisters, there's so many types to choose from!?!
Chris.


----------



## willray (Feb 25, 2021)

Mostly a lurker here to absorb the occasional trick I've not heard of before, but as someone with a few years of silver soldering and brazing under my belt, a few points I don't believe I've seen made, at least not as emphatically as I would make them to a new practitioner:

First - the two most frequent reasons I see for people failing to get their silver solder or braze to flow out, are insufficient flux, and insufficient heat.

For the flux, too much is just enough.  Add flux, and add flux, until the surface is covered with a nice thick layer of syrupy fluxy goodness and you're absolutely certain that you've added more than enough - that's your sign that it's time to add more.

For the heat, pretty much the same thing.  I cannot count the times I've seen people (both others and myself as well) fight with trying to get a nice joint, finally in desperation crank up the torch, and suddenly have everything flow out beautifully.   The tendency, especially for folks new at this, is to try to baby their way up to soldering/brazing heat.  This is usually a mistake.  Spend too long getting up to heat, and you'll exhaust the oxygen-scavenging chemistry in your flux, somewhat counterintuitively risk "burning" the surfaces you're trying to solder, and to add insult to injury, you'll melt a million balls off the end of your solder poking at the joint trying to find out if it's ready.  You are far more likely to be successful if you go at it like a madman or woman, than if you're timid.

Next, if it's within your means, don't be afraid of Acetylene, or Oxygen/Acetylene systems.  True, they are a whole 'nother ball of wax compared to propane (or our dearly lamented MAPP), but they also completely change the game when it comes to silver soldering, brazing, and a host of other things.  I absolutely wouldn't be without an O/A setup in the shop.   Since the OP is interested in silver soldering together a crankshaft rather than copper tubing, they're going to be needing a lot more deep-heat than tubing wants, and O/A will get them there much easier than propane.

And finally, if you have the option:  More torch, not more pressure.  Increasing heat by going up a torch size, rather than by opening the valve(s) more, usually keeps everything more controllable.

Best of luck!


----------



## terryd (Feb 26, 2021)

chrisv said:


> Hi Terry,
> Is the kit you use one with flexible tube/s to the gas canister or does the burner part screw direct onto smaller gas canisters, there's so many types to choose from!?!
> Chris.


Hi Chris,

Yes mine is a larger torch connecting to a 7kg propane tank.  ait is much more versatile than the small what I call 'plumbers' portable torches although I still use one of those for certain work.  The larger tank of propane is much more economical and versatile in teh long run The Sieg has a great range of nozzles to fit the basic torch handle from a fine needle point for fine jewellery work up to a roaring flame thrower, I have a range of them for different purposes.  The torch is capable of running at up to 4 bar gas pressure which a large tank can provide.

This is the basic kit I started with and you need to add the initial cost of a propane tank. You can have a look at the range of nozzle/burners and accessories also on this site:









						Sievert General Purpose Gas Blow Torch Kit
					

The Sievert General Purpose Gas Blow Torch Kit is a professional and powerful torch kit ideal for preheating, soft soldering, brazing, melting, metal work, paint stripping and other heating jobs. It comes complete with a 2941 standard burner, 3511 neck tube, 3486 handle, 4 metres hose and a...




					gasproducts.co.uk
				




Stay safe and Healthy ,

TerryD


----------



## terryd (Feb 26, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Yes mine is a larger torch connecting to a 7kg propane tank.  ait is much more versatile than the small what I call 'plumbers' portable torches although I still use one of those for certain work.  The larger tank of propane is much more economical and versatile in teh long run The Sieg has a great range of nozzles to fit the basic torch handle from a fine needle point for fine jewellery work up to a roaring flame thrower, I have a range of them for different purposes.  The torch is capable of running at up to 4 bar gas pressure which a large tank can provide.
> 
> ...


  Hi,

I forgot to say that I have also used my Sievert torch for bronze welding tubular fabrications as well as soldering silver jewellery (another hobby).

TerryD


----------



## terryd (Feb 26, 2021)

nealeb said:


> To clear up any misunderstanding - my problem was silver-soldering a machined phosphor-bronze component to another brass component. I just could not get the SS to flow on to the bronze. I wasn't using phosphorus-bearing rods - as you say, a different kettle of fish.
> 
> The problem with learning from someone else's experience comes when two different groups of people have such different experiences! Should I listen to someone who says "no way - doesn't work" or someone who says "don't know what they're complaining about - works fine for me." On the non-cadmium-bearing issue, there are enough people who say it works that I'm inclined to believe them - and my only small-scale boiler work to date bears that out. I can't believe that a large boiler will be using some magically different kind of copper, so except for, maybe, heating requirements it's not obvious to me why my experience to date won't scale.
> 
> ...


Hi Neal,

I agree with you, cad bearing silver solder is not necessary (I like to keep heavy metals out of my body as much as I can), If it will flow on a copper 3" boiler it is only a matter of scale with larger work - you just need more heat.  I also agree with the need to not necessarily clean meticulously before silver soldering despite all the 'advice' to the opposite. I use plain borax as a flux - it's cheap and effective and a cone and dish to grind it into a paste with water is available from jewellers suppliers - and it cleans the metal when heated as well as helping the solder to flow and protecting the joint from freezing after soldering, I've been carrying out the processes of silver soldering and bronze welding both for a hobby and professionally for nearly 60 years and cannot remember a failed joint even as an apprentice.

I wouldn't use oxy/propane for silver soldering or bronze welding though, it gives a dirty carbon rich flame which may contaminate the joint,  I have no proof of that only a hunch, but many years ago when I used to use oxy/propane for flame cutting up to 2 1/2" thick mild steel plate it was a very dirty flame unlike the nice relatively clean flame that you get with acetylene.  My boss would let us only use oxy/propane for cutting as it was cheaper than acetylene and he was a real cheapskate.

Just my personal experiences,

Stay safe and healthy.

TerryD


----------



## nealeb (Feb 27, 2021)

Getting back to the original question! TerryD pointed to the basic Sievert torch, which is fine, but particularly if you are going to be using the larger burners, the 3488 handle is worth considering. The separate pilot control and trigger for main gas flow is useful to avoid having to hang the torch up for a moment with an enormous flame coming out of it! You can also start warming up and drying the flux with gentle heat on the pilot setting before quickly gripping the trigger for full heat without having to fiddle with the control knob.

I'm also a fan of the "cyclone" burners. They have two advantages which are sometimes very useful - they give a different flame pattern which tends to circle round tubular components, giving more even heating, and the air inlet ports are down near the handle, which means that in a confined space, the flame doesn't go out. Which is, at best, embarrassing when it happens...

I have no idea, though, if Sievert kit is easily available in North America - but it is very popular in the UK.


----------



## terryd (Feb 27, 2021)

nealeb said:


> Getting back to the original question! TerryD pointed to the basic Sievert torch, which is fine, but particularly if you are going to be using the larger burners, the 3488 handle is worth considering. The separate pilot control and trigger for main gas flow is useful to avoid having to hang the torch up for a moment with an enormous flame coming out of it! You can also start warming up and drying the flux with gentle heat on the pilot setting before quickly gripping the trigger for full heat without having to fiddle with the control knob.
> 
> I'm also a fan of the "cyclone" burners. They have two advantages which are sometimes very useful - they give a different flame pattern which tends to circle round tubular components, giving more even heating, and the air inlet ports are down near the handle, which means that in a confined space, the flame doesn't go out. Which is, at best, embarrassing when it happens...
> 
> I have no idea, though, if Sievert kit is easily available in North America - but it is very popular in the UK.




Hi Neal,

I agree about the 3488 handle, it is very useful to be able to just let the pilot burn between soldering/heating tasks.  I haven't really found that a problem though but I may add the 3488 to my setup and possible move the 3486 on to a new owner.  At the time I bought my kit I was a bit strapped for cash and couldn't afford the 3488 and have managed to doa wide variety of work with it.

Stay safe and Healthy,

TerryD


----------



## chrisv (Feb 27, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Yes mine is a larger torch connecting to a 7kg propane tank.  ait is much more versatile than the small what I call 'plumbers' portable torches although I still use one of those for certain work.  The larger tank of propane is much more economical and versatile in teh long run The Sieg has a great range of nozzles to fit the basic torch handle from a fine needle point for fine jewellery work up to a roaring flame thrower, I have a range of them for different purposes.  The torch is capable of running at up to 4 bar gas pressure which a large tank can provide.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much Terry that is most helpful. 
I'm gathering pure Propane will give a hotter flame than the Butane/Propane mixed DIY store cans that I'm used too. Also that you can order gas itself online for home delivery. I was looking at the Flo Gas website and thinking a 3.9kg cylinder would suit as I'm not normally a heavy user, it would be lighter weight to move around and smaller to store. Something I'm stumped on though is it says it takes a 21mm regulator. Different size cylinders seem to have different size regulator fittings, so do you have to either make sure you get the right size regulator when you buy the torch, or does what you get with the kit dictate which size of cylinder you can have?
Cheers
Chris.


----------



## chrisv (Feb 27, 2021)

nealeb said:


> Getting back to the original question! TerryD pointed to the basic Sievert torch, which is fine, but particularly if you are going to be using the larger burners, the 3488 handle is worth considering. The separate pilot control and trigger for main gas flow is useful to avoid having to hang the torch up for a moment with an enormous flame coming out of it! You can also start warming up and drying the flux with gentle heat on the pilot setting before quickly gripping the trigger for full heat without having to fiddle with the control knob.
> 
> I'm also a fan of the "cyclone" burners. They have two advantages which are sometimes very useful - they give a different flame pattern which tends to circle round tubular components, giving more even heating, and the air inlet ports are down near the handle, which means that in a confined space, the flame doesn't go out. Which is, at best, embarrassing when it happens...
> 
> I have no idea, though, if Sievert kit is easily available in North America - but it is very popular in the UK.



Hi Neal, sounds like you use the 3488 handle with separate pilot, how big is the pilot flame? I had in mind it would be really small say an inch or so, but you mentioning warming and drying the flux suggests its more substantial?

Chris.


----------



## Steamchick (Feb 28, 2021)

H ChrisV: I have a few notions on fuel: Very simply, the hydrocarbon content doesn't define the temperature of the flame: The amount of oxygen (air) mixed with the gas does affect it greatly. I thought Paraffin was cooler than petrol - because my paraffin blow-lamps would not braze, whereas my petrol blow-lamp would. But recently, I rebuilt a paraffin blow-lamp and the flame was MUCH better - as good as the Petrol one.
Butane carries more carbon in its molecules than Propane, so more (denser) fuel. But as the pressure is lower, needs a different matching of sizes to get enough air into the flame for fast (= HOT) combustion. The last few weeks have been too cold (below 10C) in my garage for canister butane blow-lamps to be hot enough on small jobs! - The "reduced pressure" causes the flames to be bigger, more "wooly" and just don't give the focussed heat I need. Propane doesn't worry about temperature above -30C, so is much better in "cooler" climates. The 30% mix canisters you are using will loose most of the propane initially, so the pressure will still drop as the the cannister empties. But initially there won't be the problem I have been having with low-pressure butane canisters in the cold. I only use canister fuel for jobs that will go in a "closed fist" - as the "power" (not temperature) of these blow-lamps is too small for silver soldering anything bigger. Last week I soldered aluminium on the end of a small length of 1 inch channel - but this week I can't solder aluminium on a 5 inch can I am making. The blow-lamp isn't big enough. But I know it is OK when the weather is hotter in summer! (aluminium solder is at about 100 degrees below aluminium melting point. Not the 700 degrees you need for silver solder!).
Propane blow-lamps - because more pressure is available - use smaller jet sizes than Butane blow-lamps - and utilise the higher pressure to get higher velocity gas from the jet - which in turn sucks in MORE air and leads to faster combustion and a hotter, more focussed flame - Ideal for silver soldering. Attached some pics (mock-ups) of some set-ups I use to best apply heat for silver soldering boilers. (I had a problem that the cup-washer on the paraffin blow-lamp fell apart before I got full pressure on this lamp for the demo! - Only 40+ years old! These things are "servicable" items though! - I'll have to cut some leather from a welders gauntlet to make another cup-washer).
Using a horizontal tray of sand and fire-brick, using a vertical tin of sand and fire brick. You can see the 2 types of blow-lamp I use (not hand-held) for pre-heating and that gives me space in the middle for the Propane blow-lamp - using a regulator at 20psi (more and the flame blows-out!). Note the readily available fire extinguisher (To extinguish me if I catch fire!) and the use of extra fire-bricks to enclose the hot job and slow the cooling after soldering.. Both the petrol and paraffin blowlamp will normally get the sides of the boiler a dull red colour, while the Propane blow-lamp applied to the appropriate zone between will get a patch of boiler a decent red to melt silver solder easily. It can't do that without the insulation and 2 extra pre-heating lamps providing more heat. But my left hand cooks inside the leather gauntlet holding the propane blow-lamp! - from the radiant heat from the exposed hot-end of the job. I wear a welder's apron so I don't cook as well!
Watch out that the exhaust from one blow-lamp does not get near the air intake for another blow-lamp, as the flame of that one will be extinguished - with gas going everywhere until it ignites with a WHOOSH! - and sets your clothes on fire. It hasn't happened to me - yet - but I keep the extinguisher handy in case...(!?)
Work safely.
Hope this helps?
K2


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## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

chrisv said:


> Thank you very much Terry that is most helpful.
> I'm gathering pure Propane will give a hotter flame than the Butane/Propane mixed DIY store cans that I'm used too. Also that you can order gas itself online for home delivery. I was looking at the Flo Gas website and thinking a 3.9kg cylinder would suit as I'm not normally a heavy user, it would be lighter weight to move around and smaller to store. Something I'm stumped on though is it says it takes a 21mm regulator. Different size cylinders seem to have different size regulator fittings, so do you have to either make sure you get the right size regulator when you buy the torch, or does what you get with the kit dictate which size of cylinder you can have?
> Cheers
> Chris.


Hi Chris,

The screw fitting for the screw fit propane cylinders is standard as far as I know  (21 mm LH), but there are also 'clip on' regulators used for leisure purposes (caravans, barbies etc).  You need the 0.5 to 4 bar adjustable regulator not the 37 mb fixed one - most burners are intended to be used at 2 bar.  The pro 86 or 88 bought as a kit is cheaper than buying separate parts and you can add on later.  The kit I referred to from Hamiltons as an example has the regulator included as does the 88 pro torch kit. You appear to be in the UK and Hamiltons appears to be just about the cheapest supplier out there,  I bought mine from a local supplier in Leicester who had it for a decent price, or so I thought and was miffed when I found H's kit cheaper and included the regulator which I had to buy separately.

On reflection, personally I don't consider the advantages of the pro86 burner are worth the extra cost for my use.  I think that they are intended for professional users who are working continually during the day and the saving in gas would be considerable.  Plus I occasionally use my torch held in a dedicated stand pointing at the work leaving both hands free and I don't think that would be easy with the need to hold the lever.  In normal use if I need to put the burner down I simply turn down the flame to a minimum and hang the torch on a dedicated hook where it can do no damage - but that is not very often necessary in my model engineering work - more for my other hobby - jewellery making.  That, as I say, is just my personal judgement for my circumstances.

As for drying flux, the sievert torches can all produce a very small soft flame and anyway you can simply keep your torch further away from the work just 'stroking' it with the heat, that has never been a problem for me even on delicate jewellery (I studied jewellery and silversmithing for two years at Loughborough University in the early '70s following my early '60s engineering apprenticeship).

Here is the Hamilton kit as I showed earlier the pro 86 is nearly £69 and they offer free delivery over on purchases over £70:









						Sievert General Purpose Gas Blow Torch Kit
					

The Sievert General Purpose Gas Blow Torch Kit is a professional and powerful torch kit ideal for preheating, soft soldering, brazing, melting, metal work, paint stripping and other heating jobs. It comes complete with a 2941 standard burner, 3511 neck tube, 3486 handle, 4 metres hose and a...




					gasproducts.co.uk
				




*Update*, I have just checked the supplier I use for precious metals and jewellers supplies here in the UK and was surprised to find that they sell Sievert products and are just about the cheapest I can find. Well worth a look even though you might buy seperate items to make up a system. As an example I have just bought a needle point burner for my kit from Cousins at £16.40 including delivery and vat, it is priced at £26.90 on Amazon and eBay and £25.95 at Reeves 2000, so worth a bit of research.






						Search - Sievert torch
					

Cousins UK Search Results for Sievert torch




					www.cousinsuk.com
				




Examples of the type of regulator I use are here on eBay, I bought mine from Flogas:









						Propane Regulator Adjustable Pressure (0.5-4 Bar Gas Fitting Torch Appliance)  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Propane Regulator Adjustable Pressure (0.5-4 Bar Gas Fitting Torch Appliance) at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




I also use Flogas as a propane supplier, I fell out of love with Calor when they closed a local supplier and B.Oxy. as they charged an annual tank rental for my tank of MIG welding gas and was costing a fortune, I went with another supplier and bought a tank for the approximate equivalent of 1 years Calor rental and now just pay for refills.  I use the Flogas 6kg, tank, it is the same diameter as the 3.9 kg just taller and I find it more economical even though I am now like you a light user, plus it doesn't seem to run out on me at inconvenient times

I apologise for the long winded tract but I felt the need to explain my thinking as fully as I could.  Aren't you glad to have a fulfilling hobby in these (hopefully soon to be over) lockdown days, I feel sorry for those who just have the TV and social media to pass the time.

Dammit, my tea has gone cold so am now off to the microwave,

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## nealeb (Feb 28, 2021)

The torch handle has two controls - main gas flow and pilot flow - so you can adjust according to the burner fitted. For example, if I'm using the needle flame burner, I'll probably just use the pilot control as it is a bit more delicate and there's no real point in a separate pilot flame. For bigger burners, you need to adjust the pilot flame size to suit. Bigger burners need a bigger pilot or the gas flow drops to the point that they go out.


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## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

chrisv said:


> Thank you very much Terry that is most helpful.
> I'm gathering pure Propane will give a hotter flame than the Butane/Propane mixed DIY store cans that I'm used too. Also that you can order gas itself online for home delivery. I was looking at the Flo Gas website and thinking a 3.9kg cylinder would suit as I'm not normally a heavy user, it would be lighter weight to move around and smaller to store. Something I'm stumped on though is it says it takes a 21mm regulator. Different size cylinders seem to have different size regulator fittings, so do you have to either make sure you get the right size regulator when you buy the torch, or does what you get with the kit dictate which size of cylinder you can have?
> Cheers
> Chris.


Hi Chris,

It will burn no hotter than your small torch, however it supplies more heat energy.  There is a difference between temperature and heat.  for Example a single spark of metal at about 1300°C from a grinder may sting a little but will cause litle damage to the skin because it contains only a small amount heat, however a cup of scalding water at100°C will cause a serious scald as it contains much more heat energy.  Having said that if you stand in the stream of sparks from a grinder it will burn - msny years ago it was amusing to see a fellow apprentice once leaping about beating his groin - he had straddle the length of steel channel he was grinding with a large offhand grinder and the concentrated stream of sparks had set fire to the crotch of his boiler suit

A larger torch will produce more heat energy than a smaller one obviously, the problem with the smaller torch is that you get to a point where heat is being lost from the job than the source (blowtorch/lamp) can provide - hence the need for insulation of some kind (insulation bricks, ceramic heat blankets etc), a larger burner will produce more heat energy but not higher temperatures.  The advantages of a torch system such as Sievert or Bullfinch is that it is more versatile than a hand held torch using gas canisters you can change nozzles from a very fine flame to a flame thrower with triple nozzles for roofing and weedkilling plus it is much more economical to use refillable bottles than disposable canisters.

An advantage of propane is that it has a much lower boiling point (-42°C) than Butane (-0.4°C) so you can work at lower temperatures.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## firebird (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi
I'm a bit late replying to this, so not sure if this has been mentioned above.
For years I managed with the cheapo Machine Mart torch but when I started on my first loco boiler I bit the bullet and bought a Sievert torch kit. Bought it from Cup alloys at one of the model engineering shows.
Back home I was keen to try my new torch so connected it to my propane bottle and had a go. I was a little disappointed, I expected to notice a big difference.
It was some weeks later when I did a full set up and changed the regulator for the one supplied in the Sievert kit. 
Now there was a noticeable difference. To prove a point I changed back to the cheapo regulator and there was big drop in power.
I haven't done any research into it but suspect the cheapo regulators do not let as much pressure through as the Sievert regulator.

Cheers

Rich


----------



## chrisv (Feb 28, 2021)

Wow thank you all for so much help...my brain hurts! (-:
Steamchick, some great points there, some I am familiar with but just didn't understand why, now I do and can refer back to this, so thank you. I do have a fire extinguisher for just in case! 

Nealeb thank you, that confirms the pilot varies so not as useful as I thought.

TerryD sorry your tea got cold (-:  I thank you very much this is all invaluable advice. I will check prices at Cousins. 
Its all looking like I should be going for the Sievert kit (without the pilot) for the silver soldering and good to hear someone else uses flogas, and I take on board about the taller cylinder.

One issue for me still to tackle in my mind. Two other uses/jobs I have in mind for this. 
Firstly annealing, I sometimes have to anneal 1.5mm sheet brass pieces around 10" x 7". Using my two GoGas cans of butane/propane one in each hand and a base and back screen of Thermalite bricks I struggle to do a decent job, ie thoroughly soften it.  I'm gathering the Sievert would cope with this on its own, with a bigger burner, if so what sort of size would be appropriate?

Secondly I have on occasion to forge 1/4" round brass bars, and I have this job upcoming. About a dozen of them which will require several reheatings each.
Currently it would be a DIY can in each hand, once hot enough put these down still burning on their stands on the bench and start hammering on my small anvil, wasting gas of course but lighting them up again each time dosent work out. 
That's where the pilot torch handle appealed but since i'd likely have to adjust the flame down i'm not sure i'd gain much. I did look initially at the Bullfinch torches and they have the instant Pizza ignition, but generally they don't look like they have the build quality of the Sieverts, and most kind folks are pointing me towards the Sieverts.

Does this info change the recommendations?

Chris.


----------



## chrisv (Feb 28, 2021)

Update, for Cousins you need to add VAT so works out £5 more.
There is a Sievert Promatic 3366 handle with Pizza ignition, possibly great, just costs more £££ !
Chris.


----------



## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> H ChrisV: I have a few notions on fuel: Very simply, the hydrocarbon content doesn't define the temperature of the flame: The amount of oxygen (air) mixed with the gas does affect it greatly. I thought Paraffin was cooler than petrol - because my paraffin blow-lamps would not braze, whereas my petrol blow-lamp would. But recently, I rebuilt a paraffin blow-lamp and the flame was MUCH better - as good as the Petrol one.
> Butane carries more carbon in its molecules than Propane, so more (denser) fuel. But as the pressure is lower, needs a different matching of sizes to get enough air into the flame for fast (= HOT) combustion. The last few weeks have been too cold (below 10C) in my garage for canister butane blow-lamps to be hot enough on small jobs! - The "reduced pressure" causes the flames to be bigger, more "wooly" and just don't give the focussed heat I need. Propane doesn't worry about temperature above -30C, so is much better in "cooler" climates. The 30% mix canisters you are using will loose most of the propane initially, so the pressure will still drop as the the cannister empties. But initially there won't be the problem I have been having with low-pressure butane canisters in the cold. I only use canister fuel for jobs that will go in a "closed fist" - as the "power" (not temperature) of these blow-lamps is too small for silver soldering anything bigger. Last week I soldered aluminium on the end of a small length of 1 inch channel - but this week I can't solder aluminium on a 5 inch can I am making. The blow-lamp isn't big enough. But I know it is OK when the weather is hotter in summer! (aluminium solder is at about 100 degrees below aluminium melting point. Not the 700 degrees you need for silver solder!).
> Propane blow-lamps - because more pressure is available - use smaller jet sizes than Butane blow-lamps - and utilise the higher pressure to get higher velocity gas from the jet - which in turn sucks in MORE air and leads to faster combustion and a hotter, more focussed flame - Ideal for silver soldering. Attached some pics (mock-ups) of some set-ups I use to best apply heat for silver soldering boilers. (I had a problem that the cup-washer on the paraffin blow-lamp fell apart before I got full pressure on this lamp for the demo! - Only 40+ years old! These things are "servicable" items though! - I'll have to cut some leather from a welders gauntlet to make another cup-washer).
> Using a horizontal tray of sand and fire-brick, using a vertical tin of sand and fire brick. You can see the 2 types of blow-lamp I use (not hand-held) for pre-heating and that gives me space in the middle for the Propane blow-lamp - using a regulator at 20psi (more and the flame blows-out!). Note the readily available fire extinguisher (To extinguish me if I catch fire!) and the use of extra fire-bricks to enclose the hot job and slow the cooling after soldering.. Both the petrol and paraffin blowlamp will normally get the sides of the boiler a dull red colour, while the Propane blow-lamp applied to the appropriate zone between will get a patch of boiler a decent red to melt silver solder easily. It can't do that without the insulation and 2 extra pre-heating lamps providing more heat. But my left hand cooks inside the leather gauntlet holding the propane blow-lamp! - from the radiant heat from the exposed hot-end of the job. I wear a welder's apron so I don't cook as well!
> ...


Hi Steamchick,

What a nice pair you have.  I like the one on the left,  I presume it's an American one, with it's offset handle for right handed workers to hold in the left I suppose, what make is the other one?

I also like to use paraffin blowlamps occasionally.  Here are a couple I bought from car boot sales (remember those?).  The one on the right cost me £1.83 as it was all the change I had in my pocket at the time and the seller accepted it!  I'm just in the process of cleaning them up ready to use - my last couple were destroyed in a fire - not caused by the blowlamps I might add.  I find them convenient and cheap to run and there is a certain satisfaction in using such a simple piece of technology. I stopped using my heating oil (paraffin) in them as the nozzles kept blocking so now I only use grade 1 paraffin intended for indoor heaters which has a much cleaner burn.  I made new leather cup washers from an old pair of my shoes when renovating them.







Stay safe and Healthy,

TerryD


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## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

chrisv said:


> Update, for Cousins you need to add VAT so works out £5 more.
> There is a Sievert Promatic 3366 handle with Pizza ignition, possibly great, just costs more £££ !
> Chris.


 Hi Chris,

I'm and old timer and still use a flint striker which I've used for years, originally for lighting oxy acetylene torches. 



chrisv said:


> Wow thank you all for so much help...my brain hurts! (-:
> Steamchick, some great points there, some I am familiar with but just didn't understand why, now I do and can refer back to this, so thank you. I do have a fire extinguisher for just in case!
> 
> Nealeb thank you, that confirms the pilot varies so not as useful as I thought.
> ...


Hi Chris,

The standard burner supplied with the kit would easily manage the brass bar I think, but with sheet annealing it may be difficult to get an overall heat in one go,  with 16g sheet I have to apply the heat to an area until red hot and then move the flame  slowly across the sheet with the red heat following until the whole has been annealed, I start at the rear working across and forwards so that the sheet is effectively kept soaking.  I find that this works well as I often roll my boilers from sheet rather than using tube as I have a good supply of copper sheet in stock.

May I suggest that you make yourself a small furnace for heating bars.  I have one made form a commercial size food can lined with fireclay. a through hole runs axially through the centre (can bottom was removed before fireclay added, and there is a radial hole which accommodates a burner for the heat. I should add that the burner is held in a imple support bracket which directs the heat into the furnace and not inserted into hole.  Very simple, effective and cheap idea from somewhere on YouTube.  My previous one burnt out and I've just made a new one a few weeks ago ready for use when need arises.







Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


----------



## chrisv (Feb 28, 2021)

Thank you Terry, yes indeed that sounds like a great idea. Just been watching them being made online. I wonder as its only 1/4" bar whether a standard size bean can with smaller inner chamber would be more efficient, or whether there may be a lack of oxygen to work properly...hmmm
Chris.


----------



## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi Chris, 

I think that you would be better off with the larger size like mine.  If you know anyone who works in say a school, pub or cafe etc (our local pub in the village is still open for takeaway meals for example) where they prepare meals you could scrounge a can.  I asked the ladies in the local Morrisons restaurant to save me  three or four and they were more than willing.  You could aways roll some thin sheet into a tube and pop rivet it at a pinch.  I have the remains of an old stainless rubbish bin that I salvaged the sheet from and that would be excellent.  A pity that you don't live closer I could help out.

The reason I suggest the larger size is that you get a better insulation and can make better use of the heat available as well as ensuring a good flow of air, plus once you use it you may find more uses than you think.  I used plumbing waste pipe as a former (coated in soft soap for easy extraction) to make the holes and a hole saw was used in my electric drill for the burner hole in the can before casting the fireclay.  The bolts for the legs and handle were also added before casting the fireclay which I scrounged from a local wood burner/stove shop, mixed with horticultural perlite for extra insulation but fireclay for pizza ovens is cheap in small quantities on eBay where you can also source perlite.  

If you do make one, apply gentle heat initially and gradually increase it over a couple of days afterallowing it to thoroughly dry out in order to condition the insulation - if you go full blast straight away you are likely to ruin it.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


----------



## chrisv (Feb 28, 2021)

Thanks once again Terry. Yes I'm sure you are right about the size, I will source one somehow. One video I watched used 1/2 & 1/2 sand/plaster of Paris for the insulation. I thought this was interesting as I think I have some sand and tomorrow for work I have to make some plaster castings, no doubt I will have some left over, though I suspect this would not provide such good insulation. 
A comment suggested was to angle the burner hole towards the blocked off rear which might produce a more efficient furnace? Presumably not having the heat source entry hole pointing directly at the metal is a good thing? Or others including yourself would have done so?
And or not to have the rear open at all, ie leave the tin can base intact, though I can see issues with withdrawing the drain pipe former. Whichever I do it cancels out my main desire to have a torch that turns on and off instantly, so this furnace is likely to save me a fair wad of £, So thank you again!
Cheers
Chris.


----------



## terryd (Feb 28, 2021)

Hi Chris,

glad to be of assistance.  I made the hole in mine all the way through as it means that I can heat a section of bar at a distance from the end if I need to bend it ,which is what I did when making some holddowns for my woodworking bench.  They were made from 15 mm steel bar, bent at past 90° at around 200 mm from one end.  The end needed to be flattened to hold down the timber being worked on.  I made the burner tube so that it was at 90° to the main tube so that maximum heat could be focussed on a relatively small area of the metal being worked which is the point of the exercise, after all a blacksmith uses the fire directly to heat the metal,  he doesn't direct the heat away from the work, I think that is the more efficient use of heat.

I've never used plaster of paris in a furnace but obviously it must work however I would still recommend using perlite and not sand as a filler as it is a great insulator and reflects heat back on to the work, it is often used in furnaces for melting aluminium and brass as it is such a good insulator and helps to conserve heat making the process more efficient, besides, it is relatively cheap.  It is the same principle as in my use of insulating firebrick rather than normal firebrick.  You can see these in my pictures of my paraffin blowtorches, I can heat the surface of one end of the brick to red hot (which means that it is reflecting not absorbing heat energy) but am still able to hold the other end which means that heat energy is not wasted heating the bricks, the same principle applies to a furnace lining and I fear sand would tend to absorb, therefore waste, heat energy.  That is a theory not based on experience just intuition.

As for removing the plastic pipe, a good coating of soft soap and a twist back and forth occasionally while the compound you use is hardening wil make the removal a breeze.

Anyway, let us know how you get on,

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


----------



## Iampappabear (Feb 28, 2021)

Many thanks to all the amazing input, I now know that propane is hot enough to silver solder with and the torch output has to be proportional to the mass of the part to be soldered.  I believe I have a Sievert torch lurking somewhere in my garage as I used one to shrink wrap my boat a few years back but that is another story.  If I can find that torch, my only issue will be adaption to current BBQ cylinder fittings as they changed the design a few years back in Canada.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

Colin


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2021)

The Chinese seem to make every form of adapter you may ever need, so you can connect standard cylinders to almost anything now. And very cheap... but as always "caveat emptor" - (is that "buyer beware"? Or "sieze the day"? Or "empty cave"?).
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2021)

Terry, the blow-lamp you like is a Sievert 0.5 petrol model I bought mid-1970s. Primus and Optimus paraffin blowlamps are very common and cheap. But the Swedish are masters of petrol blow-lamps, providing you use unleaded pertrol. Until the 1990s I was always making new wicks and de-leading the white compound from my petrol lamps and stoves. The advantage being that when camping, the fuel (petrol) was carried in my motorbike tank and easily withdrawn using a hose on a fuel tap, instead of the hose to the carburettor. Old petrol blow-lamps sometimes become available second hand, usually because they need dismantling and de-leading, and new wicks and leather cup washers. Otherwise they truly last a lifetime! And give quick light-up using a Butane blow-lamp to pre-heat, and the best flame of all.
Really my favourite hand-blow-lamp.
On cup washers, the washers I have made only last 5 years or so, but bought ones are pre-shaped and don't fail after more than 20 years. So I buy if I can find a good supplier of the correct part. It means I can use a blow-lamp after it has sat in the cupboard for a year or 2 and not have to make a new washer half-way through a hot job. Also, it means I don't have washer sized holes in my gauntlets!
Cheers,
K2


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## terryd (Mar 1, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Terry, the blow-lamp you like is a Sievert 0.5 petrol model I bought mid-1970s. Primus and Optimus paraffin blowlamps are very common and cheap. But the Swedish are masters of petrol blow-lamps, providing you use unleaded pertrol. Until the 1990s I was always making new wicks and de-leading the white compound from my petrol lamps and stoves. The advantage being that when camping, the fuel (petrol) was carried in my motorbike tank and easily withdrawn using a hose on a fuel tap, instead of the hose to the carburettor. Old petrol blow-lamps sometimes become available second hand, usually because they need dismantling and de-leading, and new wicks and leather cup washers. Otherwise they truly last a lifetime! And give quick light-up using a Butane blow-lamp to pre-heat, and the best flame of all.
> Really my favourite hand-blow-lamp.
> On cup washers, the washers I have made only last 5 years or so, but bought ones are pre-shaped and don't fail after more than 20 years. So I buy if I can find a good supplier of the correct part. It means I can use a blow-lamp after it has sat in the cupboard for a year or 2 and not have to make a new washer half-way through a hot job. Also, it means I don't have washer sized holes in my gauntlets!
> Cheers,
> K2


Hi Steamchick,

Mine are both Monitor, a No 126 (1 pint) and a No 32 (1/2 pint) both paraffin only models.  I've never tried a petrol one but will keep an eye open for when one comes up.  Thanks for the advice.

As for washers, I may go proprietary as I'm fed up of my feet getting wet in the rain due to the number of holes  I usually treat my cup washers with boiled linseed oil as it is a good preservative and doesn't go rancid and they seem to last well.

stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## jack620 (Mar 3, 2021)

I use a MAPP gas torch like this one for most silver soldering jobs: MAPP torch
I break out the oxy-acetylene for heavy materials that require a lot of heat.

I use this solder: stay-silv 56% silver solder
It's expensive, so you don't want sloppy joints. But it flows like water, so you don't NEED sloppy joints.

I use this flux: stay-silv black flux


----------



## terryd (Mar 4, 2021)

jack620 said:


> I use a MAPP gas torch like this one for most silver soldering jobs: MAPP torch
> I break out the oxy-acetylene for heavy materials that require a lot of heat.
> 
> I use this solder: stay-silv 56% silver solder
> ...


Hi Jack,

I thought that the original MAPP - methylacetylene-propadiene propane - gas was phased out in 2008. Most so called MAPP gasses here in the UK are called MAP-Pro, (hence MAP-P or MAPP) a substitute for the true MAPP gas and has a different composition e.g. - Propane,  propene, dimethyl ether.  MAP will burn hotter than Propane but not as hot as the original.  Are you still able to get true MAPP in Australia?  I note that the cylinder in the torch example you gave said MAP.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## Steamchick (Mar 4, 2021)

Hmmm... I'll stick to Paraffin, Petrol, Propane and Butane: Is that PPPB?
K2


----------



## terryd (Mar 4, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Hmmm... I'll stick to Paraffin, Petrol, Propane and Butane: Is that PPPB?
> K2





Stay safe and healthy

TerryD


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## Murph (Mar 4, 2021)

Years ago,  I decided to be done with second-rate wanna-be torches, went with air/acetylene swirlfire torch heads, and never looked back.  No sodding about with preheat torches, firebrick and the like, just light the torch and get 'er done.

Now, for those of you in the UK still buggering about with paraffin and white gas (panel wipe) blowlamps or torches, you can get replacement jets, pump leathers and the like here:  https://fettlebox.co.uk/vintage-stoves-lamps-blowlamps.html

Murph


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## terryd (Mar 5, 2021)

Murph said:


> Years ago,  I decided to be done with second-rate wanna-be torches, went with air/acetylene swirlfire torch heads, and never looked back.  No sodding about with preheat torches, firebrick and the like, just light the torch and get 'er done.
> 
> Now, for those of you in the UK still buggering about with paraffin and white gas (panel wipe) blowlamps or torches, you can get replacement jets, pump leathers and the like here:  https://fettlebox.co.uk/vintage-stoves-lamps-blowlamps.html
> 
> Murph


Hi Murph,

One reason I'm buggering about with paraffin petrol and propane is that they are efficient, convenient relatively safe and have worked for all my needs large and small for almost 60 years, having said that I admit that a good level of skills are needed to get the best from these products.  I also began buggering about oxy-acetylene welding and flame cutting when I began my Engineering apprenticeship in 1963 and taught the safe use of it and used it in the workplace for many years and have undertaken courses in with British Oxygen (BOC) and agree that it is easy to use.  It can be quite unstable and even a hard knock can set the stuff off, one of the earleist things the guys taught me when handling the large industrial cylinders was that if dropped while changing them their advice was to "run like the devil is on your tail".

However there are a couple of reasons I don't use it at home. the first one is that if not declared it can invalidate my home insurance (I suggest that you check with your company) and secondly when I had my garage/workshop fire the firefighters who attended were only worried about the possibility of acetylene cylinders.  After the fire the firefighters told me that if there had been acetylene they would not have 'fought' the fire but just contained it from a distance to prevent spread and it would have been allowed to burn down completely.  They were not concerned with paraffin, LPG gasses or even the 2700 litres of heating oil in it's tank inside the building.  They were determined not to bugger about with acetylene.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## jack620 (Mar 5, 2021)

terryd said:


> Are you still able to get true MAPP in Australia?



I guess not Terry. I just assumed it was MAPP because it was a yellow cylinder. I didn't realise MAPP had been phased out. The cylinder I have is >95% Propylene and labelled as "MAPP Replacement". Burn temp is quoted at 1982 degrees C. Apparently the old MAPP burned in air at 2020 degrees C.


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## Steamchick (Mar 5, 2021)

Interesting Jack. I didn't know they could quote "temperature" for combustion, as (in my un-educated stupidity) I thought the gas burned the Hydrogen in the first part of the reaction, then C + O = CO and finally CO + O2 to CO2 in the final stage of combustion. So in my mixed-up mind all hydrocarbon fuels are different calorific values but temperature is a product of how the gases mix and how fast each reaction occurs at each stage..?
Thanks Murph. I'm trying to get a UK supplier to supply the cup-washers I want. Fettle-box came back with "closed for a week". I'm cutting washers from my welding gauntlets at the moment - but the leather only lasts a few years compared to bought cup washers.
As I have inherited 5 paraffin blow-lamps, fuel is relatively cheap and easy to manage, and for my jobs the Propane and Petrol Blow-lamps are powerful and reliable and adequate heat sources, I'll not be trying any other fuels for a while. I did have a problem this last week trying to do a titchy little aluminium soldering job with Butane. So cold (below 3 degrees in my garage) that the butane canisters just failed to boil enough gas to feed the blow-lamp! But it was just enough to pre-heat the petrol blow-lamp which easily did the job (almost too much heat - high risk of melting the aluminium!).
Stay safe! - and warm.
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 5, 2021)

Terry, Like you, I enjoy the "buggering about" with old but good tools and techniques that can sometimes be a bit of a challenge. That's part of the fun of the hobby to me.
K2


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## terryd (Mar 5, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Interesting Jack. I didn't know they could quote "temperature" for combustion, as (in my un-educated stupidity) I thought the gas burned the Hydrogen in the first part of the reaction, then C + O = CO and finally CO + O2 to CO2 in the final stage of combustion. So in my mixed-up mind all hydrocarbon fuels are different calorific values but temperature is a product of how the gases mix and how fast each reaction occurs at each stage..?
> Thanks Murph. I'm trying to get a UK supplier to supply the cup-washers I want. Fettle-box came back with "closed for a week". I'm cutting washers from my welding gauntlets at the moment - but the leather only lasts a few years compared to bought cup washers.
> As I have inherited 5 paraffin blow-lamps, fuel is relatively cheap and easy to manage, and for my jobs the Propane and Petrol Blow-lamps are powerful and reliable and adequate heat sources, I'll not be trying any other fuels for a while. I did have a problem this last week trying to do a titchy little aluminium soldering job with Butane. So cold (below 3 degrees in my garage) that the butane canisters just failed to boil enough gas to feed the blow-lamp! But it was just enough to pre-heat the petrol blow-lamp which easily did the job (almost too much heat - high risk of melting the aluminium!).
> Stay safe! - and warm.
> K2


Hi Steamchick,

talking about gas freezing I have a couple of anecdotes.  I used to crew a sailing boat on the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads/river complex for a friend who owned the boat, a lovely ex hire boat of the Leading Lady class of Herbert Woods, Potter Hiegham, 32 ft long, 12ft beam and 400 sq feet of bermuda rigged sail - but that's beside the point.  We often went in the winter months when the wannabee sailor holiday crowd were sparse or non existant and huge flocks of starlings would entertain us with their sky dances  (aka murmurations).  the gas cooker in the galley was powered by Butane which often froze, as did the Broad itself, (as well as my sleeping bag which would get soaked by the evaporation dripping from the cabin roof overnight).  To combat thfrozen gas, Dave - the boats owner - could only get a faint flame from the burner and would then place the cylinder on that flame until the gas started to boil and produce a decent pressure.  Fair gave me a fright the first time he did it in the cramped galley but I got used to it eventually.

Another time some workmen were doing something in the village to do with footpaths and using one of those triple burner heads, again in winter and the propane froze due to the cold external temperature and the rate of evaporation of the gas with the high consumprtion burners.  The outside of the bottle was white with frost at that stage.  Their solution was to get hold of bbq charcoal and buit a fire on the verge on which to warm the cylinder and noncholantly carry on with their work.  as for cold workshop I've only managed to stay out there for about 30 minutes at a time and had to retreat to the house for a defrost on several days recently.

Stay safe, healthy and warm 

TerryD


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## nealeb (Mar 5, 2021)

I remember a sailing trip with a bunch of us on board. For a good breakfast fry-up, we had three burners the butane stove cooking while the fourth boiled a kettle. When hot, I took it out to the gas locker and poured it over the butane bottle. Hose wasn't long enough to bring it into the cabin!

I'm inspired by other comments to date to find my old paraffin blowlamp - the idea of preheating with the propane torch makes sense and avoids a lot of messing about.


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## Murph (Mar 6, 2021)

I'd worry less about acetylene tanks then butane or propane,  acetylene tanks have a plug that melts at 100 deg C, venting the tank to avoid a explosion,  can't say the same for propane or butane.

I remember one winter, it was so damn cold, my sister-in-law, the sparks apprentice, came in to borrow the acetylene torch to warm the oil pan on her service van to get it started!


----------



## terryd (Mar 6, 2021)

Murph said:


> I'd worry less about acetylene tanks then butane or propane,  acetylene tanks have a plug that melts at 100 deg C, venting the tank to avoid a explosion,  can't say the same for propane or butane.
> 
> I remember one winter, it was so damn cold, my sister-in-law, the sparks apprentice, came in to borrow the acetylene torch to warm the oil pan on her service van to get it started!


Hi Murph,

That's a lot of gas to burn at a high temperature.  In my garage fire, which the firefighters estimated a temperature at it's peak of 8 - 900°C (the main roof support beam, a 200 mm deep I beam joist, bent under the temperature) there were two Butane cylinders one 7kg Calor Gas and one 4kg Camping Gaz plus one 6kg propane, no tank exploded or released gas.  I'm sure that the very professional firefighters understood the dangers involved, they obviously have a lot of experience of this kind of thing which I don't.  I'm still not interested in buggering about with acetylene in a domestic environment.  In most organisations in the UK Oxy acetylene bottles are stored in a seperate, attached and ventilated shed.  There has to be a reason for that:

Quote:
_"Acetylene has a wide flammability range in air and, being only slightly less dense than air, mixes very easily with it creating an explosive atmosphere.Therefore it is advisable to store these cylinders outside or in well ventilated areas, away from other flammable materials and sources of ignition_"  (Air products - "Safety in Fires"

I'd rather not mess about with that unstable stuff with all of it's hydrogen content.  I had plenty of experience with the stuff over the last 58 years welding, bronze welding, Cutting steel plate up to 65mm thick and instructing in it's use and safety.  But at home, no thanks - each to their own.

As for vehicles I remember, before diesel was de waxed, in deep winter lorry drivers often had to light fires under their Fuel tanks in order to heat the diesel and get it to flow.  They would sit by the fire to warm themselves up.  I remember my dad doing it quite regularly in the cold winters of the 1950s and early '60s.  I'm not sure he would have used oxy acetylene as the flame is so concentrated.







Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## Richard Carlstedt (Mar 7, 2021)

My Brother-in-law  had a Mobil Truck Repair Van with Oxy and Acetylene tanks and some 
gasoline used for cleaning parts caught on fire . I arrived at the fire scene  a few minutes later , just when the Fire department  found out there was Oxy-Acetylene tanks in the van and they pulled back and let it burn - 

There was NO explosion -Instead the tanks vented and I saw the biggest cutting torch I have ever seen . The entire truck was burning  , but in the middle of the flames was a solid cone of yellow/blue flame that was 4 feet tall and 1 foot wide  When the fire was out , the metal roof had a 2 foot diameter hole right where the tanks were . The tanks vented and made a cutting torch and cut the roof. The tanks were still chained to their supports

Rich


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Talking of heating stuff... My colleague used to have a haulage business... collecting bitumen from the refinery (Very hot!) and taking it to the road-mender who mixed it with hard-core for road surfacing. Apparently... One day a driver stopped en-route for a longer than scheduled time... (Maybe he had  nice girlfriend?). And the Bitumen cooled and wouldn't tip out the back when he got to the delivery site. So he got a can of DERV and some rags and wood and lit a fire beneath the trailer to warm the bitumen and allow it to drain out of the back.... The Fire Brigade used 3 appliances to contain the fire to prevent the rest of the yard from going up in smoke. And 30tons of burning bitumen makes a lot of smoke! - There was nothing to be salvaged from the trailer except some scrap steel, and asbestos brake linings.
Take cars!
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Incidentally perhaps? Maybe Regulations differ in various countries - after all we are all human and our governments decide what is appropriate and Enforceable... - so get the local Regulations from your GAS supplier, check with your Insurer, then do what the hell you think suits you...!! It's your life, belongings, family, hobby, etc. that can be destroyed if you get it wrong. Gas cylinders are all made and tested to meet regulations for SAFETY. - BUT don't rely on them - Look up BLEVE on the web, ask the fire-brigade, etc. and they will tell you that even "safe" cylinders can have faults - but you only find out when you need the "safety aspect" to work. Best not to go there in my HUMBLE opinion.
K2


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## goldstar31 (Mar 8, 2021)

Could we start this discussion again, please?

 The simple answer to the problem is that :=

THERE IS TOO MUCH HEAT
                     &
And in the WRONG place.


----------



## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Oh, and a tragic tale from my Brother-in-law. (Seems we all have family, friends, acquaintances, etc. who have known "fire" tragedies?).
Hi best mate built a long-boat for the canal. He used to go there sometimes - maybe monthly - to run the generator to charge the battery - warm the cabin with the heater - etc. But one day he was found dead (lights ON, no gas in the generator, Book in hand) because it had been especially cold and he had taken the generator into the cabin to help warm-it while he waited for the battery to charge. He had done it before, apparently, and had been warned of dangerous exhaust gases. He had died from CO poisoning from the generator exhaust. - Not a fire I hear you say, but controlled combustion.
Firemen will tell you CO inhalation is by far the commonest cause of "death by fire". Please take care and use a CO monitor and a WELL VENTILLATED SPACE when firing blow-torches, boilers, Jet burners, etc. - You may be surprised how often a CO alarm will sound if close to the "Blow-lamp job"... e,g, clipped to the top pocket of your boiler suit! (close to your mouth!).
Stay safe and keep writing!
K2


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## terryd (Mar 8, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Oh, and a tragic tale from my Brother-in-law. (Seems we all have family, friends, acquaintances, etc. who have known "fire" tragedies?).
> Hi best mate built a long-boat for the canal. He used to go there sometimes - maybe monthly - to run the generator to charge the battery - warm the cabin with the heater - etc. But one day he was found dead (lights ON, no gas in the generator, Book in hand) because it had been especially cold and he had taken the generator into the cabin to help warm-it while he waited for the battery to charge. He had done it before, apparently, and had been warned of dangerous exhaust gases. He had died from CO poisoning from the generator exhaust. - Not a fire I hear you say, but controlled combustion.
> Firemen will tell you CO inhalation is by far the commonest cause of "death by fire". Please take care and use a CO monitor and a WELL VENTILLATED SPACE when firing blow-torches, boilers, Jet burners, etc. - You may be surprised how often a CO alarm will sound if close to the "Blow-lamp job"... e,g, clipped to the top pocket of your boiler suit! (close to your mouth!).
> Stay safe and keep writing!
> K2


Hi K2,

my heat treatment facility is at the front corner of my garage workshop, and for the reason you state I only ever use torches etc, no matter what the weather is when the double door is raised, if too windy I just put off the job until conditions are right.  

Hi Norman,

With all due respect to your wisdom, rich experience and age which I envy by the way, I don't think that safety is *ever* off topic, and personally if I don't like a topic I don't follow it and read on elsewhere. Reading any topic/thread is not compulsory on any forum I have ever been on.  I won't use capitals to shout out of courtesy for other readers.



Richard Carlstedt said:


> My Brother-in-law  had a Mobil Truck Repair Van with Oxy and Acetylene tanks and some
> gasoline used for cleaning parts caught on fire . I arrived at the fire scene  a few minutes later , just when the Fire department  found out there was Oxy-Acetylene tanks in the van and they pulled back and let it burn -
> 
> There was NO explosion -Instead the tanks vented and I saw the biggest cutting torch I have ever seen . The entire truck was burning  , but in the middle of the flames was a solid cone of yellow/blue flame that was 4 feet tall and 1 foot wide  When the fire was out , the metal roof had a 2 foot diameter hole right where the tanks were . The tanks vented and made a cutting torch and cut the roof. The tanks were still chained to their supports
> ...


Hi Richard,

I take your point, In the confusion after my fire I was possible confused and misinterpreted what the firefighter was saying to me.  I was understandably very emotional and confused at the time having lost all of my tools and machinery, my sailing dinghy, two classic Triumph sports cars and a lot of my life's work
 not to mention a large amount of valuable materials which the insurance didn't cover fully.  However he may also have been concerned that an acetylene cylinder, not properly secured in a domestic environment may fall over/get knocked over and the contents become unstable as is common with acetylene and who would want to deal with "the biggest cutting torch ever seen" in a fire.

Stay safe and healthy all,

TerryD


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Thanks for sharing that Terry. I'm sure we would all be quite distressed at that experience. We (irrational and emotional) Humans get all screwed-up about silly inanimate things when they are destroyed. I have had "pride and joy" motorcycles stolen - and the insurance money doesn't compensate. Maybe because the objects are a part of our personal history, so when we loose them we know we only have our (joyous) memories?
Anyway, we all read what we choose - for fun and to learn. Because we are human, curious, and "that's what we do".
K2


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## terryd (Mar 8, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Thanks for sharing that Terry. I'm sure we would all be quite distressed at that experience. We (irrational and emotional) Humans get all screwed-up about silly inanimate things when they are destroyed. I have had "pride and joy" motorcycles stolen - and the insurance money doesn't compensate. Maybe because the objects are a part of our personal history, so when we loose them we know we only have our (joyous) memories?
> Anyway, we all read what we choose - for fun and to learn. Because we are human, curious, and "that's what we do".
> K2


Hi K2, 

As far as off topic goes.  Threads such as this often if not always do that once the original poster's questions have been answered satisfactorily and fully,  it keeps up what is often friendly and sometimes instructive conversations which would not necessarily happen elsewhere (not always just 'hot air'  which some very frequent posters are guilty of and then accuse others).  It's not as if this is an instructive project based thread such as the V8 Whittle engine, it was merely someone asking for advice which was freely given by many contributors and I hope has fulfilled his needs, any more could be as confusing as helpful.  
And like you I'm always curious, exploring, discussing and experimenting.  As you say, it's what we do and it's what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

"Goodonya" mate. (sometimes I go so far off-thread I don't remember the original post!- thanks for keeping me "on track".).
K2


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## willray (Mar 8, 2021)

terryd said:


> I'd rather not mess about with that unstable stuff with all of it's hydrogen content.




Just a technical note as an aside - it's not the hydrogen content of Acetylene that's the problem - it has fewer hydrogens, as well as fewer hydrogens per carbon, than any other (common?  I can't think of any that would beat it) hydrocarbon.   For acetylene it's that nasty Carbon triple bond, and that fact that if it breaks, there is absolutely nothing in the soup that it can hold hands with to make itself feel better, while it goes on a hunt for a friendly Oxygen.


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Clever stuff. 
Acetylene is also "old fashioned" - Carbide - made by burning coal and chalk - is dry, and easily makes acetylene when wetted. - My Grandfather had some in a tin - for his old motorcycle lamps - and threw a piece on the wet grass, then dropped a lighted match and we watched it burn! - So learning from him I bought an old acetylene lamp, and use it for gas for an atmospheric gas engine... The nearest to the coal gas the engine was designed to use.
And a couple of my old paraffin blow-lamps were his - and still in use - just last week!
Nostalgia ain't what it used t' be!
K2


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## willray (Mar 8, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Acetylene is also "old fashioned" - Carbide - made by burning coal and chalk - is dry, and easily makes acetylene when wetted. - My Grandfather had some in a tin



If you were on our side of the pond, I'd drop a tin of carbide in post for you.  I've still got 5 pounds or so from my caving days in a tin in the garage (ironically for today's discussion, it, and the Oxy/Acetylene tanks were in a different out-building when /our/ shop burned).


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## Steamchick (Mar 8, 2021)

Please don't drop it in the post - it may bring a new meaning to "hot-mail"! - Seriously, the rules for posting it are beyond the need to post it. My old tin will last my lifetime.
But thanks for the thought!
Maybe use it for lighting the barbecue? I.E. Sprinkle some carbide, sprinkle with water, light it and use more water to extinguish your beard, then add wood or charcoal for the barbecue....
K2


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## Canyonman (Mar 8, 2021)

Hi,
If you want to get into some new fangled stuff; My son taught this old dog some new tricks.
  I use an HHO generator for Browns Gas or hydrogen oxygen gas (hence HHO)  It runs on 12VDC - 24VDC at an amperage dependent on the size of your generator. I use a battery charger or if no "mains" a 24VDC battery (or two 12's depending on how you do it).
I use a jewelers' torch. It produces an extremely hot flame! Hot enough that it will cut metal if you are not paying attention! Temp can be lowered by adding an inert gas i.e. Nitrogen to vary the flame down to 1600 deg. F, with 5000 deg F as the top end (straight and under pressure.) My set-up runs around 2600 deg F. under the pressure of the generator itself.
  Not a large "wash" flame, more like a pinpoint to pencil thickness type flame, of course depending on your tip. You can even get it down to a hypodermic needle for very fine work. I use it mostly for silver soldering front sights on M1911 .45's and revolvers. And trust me, any silver solder will flow! But I wholeheartedly agree, Flux is your friend.
  Now before someone goes off on the "Bomb" theory; I use a one way valve between the generator and the "Bubbler" and another just after the "Bubbler", which acts as a flashback arrestor itself,  into a flashback arrestor with another flashback arrestor at the torch handle; and I get razzed for having too much protection. But better to be safe than sorry. The only by-product you get is water.
  This would require you to go around each tube rather than heat the whole thing. Which I would think would cause tempering or brittleness problems. But I admit I am ignorant in boiler making so I may be way off base.
  This I guess would fall under a "works for me and my type of work" thing. But I thought I would throw it out there under a FWIW


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## goldstar31 (Mar 8, 2021)

I lived half a miles from a 'non-gassy coal mine, It was called the Catherine pit and was- before it  was closed and before it was nationalised before that in 1947, it was part of the. Stella Coal Company and to bring things into reality it was a mile or so from  Steamchick's  family place on the banks of the river Tyne.
Being a  'non- gassy pit the workmen could use calcium carbide lamps which they knocked out the remaining contents after the end of a shift.  We as little urchins collected the stuff/ I'll come back to that.<y father was the blacksmith/farrier at Greenside a mile away.  My father had a carbide generator to use with the Oxygen bottles which were used in the construction of ;tubs; which were under ground little  coal carriers and Dad would replace the boiler tubes in the 'Dilly' which pulled the coal  in larger trucks  and after screening.  Dad used to lecture me on removing the weld impurities called 'Dottle' from the residue left in clay pipes.  The mines locally were not  gassy but the deputy overmen would do safty checks by taking canaries down with them .  If the birds died
, then  the miners would use either Davy Lamps or Geordie Lamopps  named from the local lamp invented by George Stephenson, the inventor of locomotives  like 'The Rocket' That is why people on Tyneside are called Geordies!

So back to the Catherine pit. We collected the suff in lemonade bottles and  excited the gas by urinating in it and made cork guns.   No body had any money- it was part of  life.


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## packrat (Mar 9, 2021)

When I went to welding school back in early 1960s the trade school had a calcium carbide acetylene generator as we spent a lot of time learning how to gas weld
with the oxy-acetylene torch. glodatar31 we also would have some fun with the calcium carbide but we just used water.


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## goldstar31 (Mar 9, 2021)

packrat said:


> Goldtar31, we also would have some fun with the calcium carbide but we just used water.


 'You are in' for an experience


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## BaronJ (Mar 9, 2021)

Hi Guys,

Norman you are aging me   I well remember the carbide lamps from when I was a youngster and the blacksmith round the corner illuminating his workshop with them.

I also recall a small factory going bang when someone set fire to the acetylene hose, at least that is what I was told.  I have no idea which bit went bang, but it made one hell of a bang !  Part of the roof ended up in the street.


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## goldstar31 (Mar 9, 2021)

John- Thanks but some bits of the [email protected] for me were fun.
 We were ill or un0educated and  left school at 14 officially,  I stayed on to become an apprentice  millionaire  selling spinach. 
We had a guy in the class( joke) called Ronnie Raper who was thicker than the proverbial Pig Poo and  went on to a youth prison to answer for his well chosen surname.  Seriously, folks- she was a bus.
 conductor.
So we ran out corks and Ronnie turned up with a screw top bottle.  Nothing happened as with the corked variety and he shook and shook it!  And finally it shattered in his hand.


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## BaronJ (Mar 10, 2021)

Hi Norman, Guys,

When I look back at some of the things we/I got up to as youngsters, its frightening !  We risked injury and quite probably death with some of the things we did.


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## terryd (Mar 11, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> H ChrisV: I have a few notions on fuel: Very simply, the hydrocarbon content doesn't define the temperature of the flame: The amount of oxygen (air) mixed with the gas does affect it greatly. I thought Paraffin was cooler than petrol - because my paraffin blow-lamps would not braze, whereas my petrol blow-lamp would. But recently, I rebuilt a paraffin blow-lamp and the flame was MUCH better - as good as the Petrol one.
> Butane carries more carbon in its molecules than Propane, so more (denser) fuel. But as the pressure is lower, needs a different matching of sizes to get enough air into the flame for fast (= HOT) combustion. The last few weeks have been too cold (below 10C) in my garage for canister butane blow-lamps to be hot enough on small jobs! - The "reduced pressure" causes the flames to be bigger, more "wooly" and just don't give the focussed heat I need. Propane doesn't worry about temperature above -30C, so is much better in "cooler" climates. The 30% mix canisters you are using will loose most of the propane initially, so the pressure will still drop as the the cannister empties. But initially there won't be the problem I have been having with low-pressure butane canisters in the cold. I only use canister fuel for jobs that will go in a "closed fist" - as the "power" (not temperature) of these blow-lamps is too small for silver soldering anything bigger. Last week I soldered aluminium on the end of a small length of 1 inch channel - but this week I can't solder aluminium on a 5 inch can I am making. The blow-lamp isn't big enough. But I know it is OK when the weather is hotter in summer! (aluminium solder is at about 100 degrees below aluminium melting point. Not the 700 degrees you need for silver solder!).
> Propane blow-lamps - because more pressure is available - use smaller jet sizes than Butane blow-lamps - and utilise the higher pressure to get higher velocity gas from the jet - which in turn sucks in MORE air and leads to faster combustion and a hotter, more focussed flame - Ideal for silver soldering. Attached some pics (mock-ups) of some set-ups I use to best apply heat for silver soldering boilers. (I had a problem that the cup-washer on the paraffin blow-lamp fell apart before I got full pressure on this lamp for the demo! - Only 40+ years old! These things are "servicable" items though! - I'll have to cut some leather from a welders gauntlet to make another cup-washer).
> Using a horizontal tray of sand and fire-brick, using a vertical tin of sand and fire brick. You can see the 2 types of blow-lamp I use (not hand-held) for pre-heating and that gives me space in the middle for the Propane blow-lamp - using a regulator at 20psi (more and the flame blows-out!). Note the readily available fire extinguisher (To extinguish me if I catch fire!) and the use of extra fire-bricks to enclose the hot job and slow the cooling after soldering.. Both the petrol and paraffin blowlamp will normally get the sides of the boiler a dull red colour, while the Propane blow-lamp applied to the appropriate zone between will get a patch of boiler a decent red to melt silver solder easily. It can't do that without the insulation and 2 extra pre-heating lamps providing more heat. But my left hand cooks inside the leather gauntlet holding the propane blow-lamp! - from the radiant heat from the exposed hot-end of the job. I wear a welder's apron so I don't cook as well!
> ...


Hi Steamchck/K2,

Following our discussion I bought a petrol blowlamp to try, I've always been wary of them before.  It's a sievert and very similar to yours on the left of the photo you showed in the post above. However it is a later model with a different handle and no pressure pump.  I've attached a picture to show you.  before I fire it up I'd be grateful for some advice, I'm wary as I have already had one workshop fire as I recounted earlier  and I'd prefer not have another.

Do I just fill her up fasten the bungs and preheat with Meths as with a paraffin blowtorch.  I presume that it will self pressurize with the heat from the main flame when running?  I remember having a small petrol camping stove many years ago which comprised a container with a loop of copper tube on top, the flame was from a tiny hole in the lower part of the loop which heated the petrol vapour in the upper part of the loop hence self pressurizing.  Am I correct in my assumptions?

Oh, and what is the






 bracket on top, obviously to hold something, but what?


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## terryd (Mar 11, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi Steamchck/K2,
> 
> Following our discussion I bought a petrol blowlamp to try, I've always been wary of them before.  It's a sievert and very similar to yours on the left of the photo you showed in the post above. However it is a later model with a different handle and no pressure pump.  I've attached a picture to show you.  before I fire it up I'd be grateful for some advice, I'm wary as I have already had one workshop fire as I recounted earlier  and I'd prefer not have another.
> 
> ...


  Hi, Steamchick/K2

The last question should say ' what is the bracket on top for, obviously to hold something but what, an igniter of some sort?'

Stay safe,

TerryD


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## L98fiero (Mar 11, 2021)

terryd said:


> ' what is the bracket on top for, obviously to hold something but what, an igniter of some sort?'
> TerryD


If it's like the ones I remember the bracket is for heating a soldering iron


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## terryd (Mar 11, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> If it's like the ones I remember the bracket is for heating a soldering iron


Hi fiero,

That sounds a very convincing use, specially when used by a plumber,  thanks,

Stay safe and healthy,

TerryD


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## willray (Mar 11, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi fiero,
> 
> That sounds a very convincing use, specially when used by a plumber,  thanks,
> 
> ...




Yup, and that's what the loop/hook, in combination with the little "raccoon ears" on top of the business end of some other varieties, is for as well.


By the way, I believe your Sievert may have had an (optional) little portable pump to pre-pressurize the tank slightly as well.  That filler cap looks a lot like the ones on contemporary Optimus and Svea stoves, for which a pump like this was available:


Optimus Mini Pump


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## terryd (Mar 11, 2021)

willray said:


> Yup, and that's what the loop/hook, in combination with the little "raccoon ears" on top of the business end of some other varieties, is for as well.


Hi Will ray,

Thanks for the confirmation it's always better to have at least two corresponding comments,




TerryD


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## willray (Mar 11, 2021)

terryd said:


> Hi Will ray,
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation it's always better to have at least two corresponding comments,
> 
> ...



You have no idea how tickled I was, when I figured out the purpose of those features while casting about trying to figure out where it was safe to set down a hot iron...


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## terryd (Mar 11, 2021)

willray said:


> You have no idea how tickled I was, when I figured out the purpose of those features while casting about trying to figure out where it was safe to set down a hot iron...


Hi,

I can imagine.  I occasionally have those eye openers, rather like a Euraka moment - perhaps that's how Archimedes felt,

Stay safe and healthy

TerryD


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## Ken I (Mar 12, 2021)

Here's a thread on blowlamps some 10 years back :-
Blow lamps
I also went through starting procedures etc (Page 1)




Avoiding "flamethrower" mode and photos (Page 2)




Yes the clip is for a soldering iron :-




My homemade heavy duty soldering iron - mostly I heat it on a gas ring nowadays.
A blowlamp puts out prodigious amounts of heat and can be useful for large objects - my butane / propane / oxy-fuel etc. torches are still my weapon of choice for silver soldering as you can keep the flame slightly reducing (fuel rich) which helps to consume  any stray Oxygen - which you want to keep away from your prepped area while soldering / brazing.

Regards, Ken


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## terryd (Mar 12, 2021)

Ken I said:


> Here's a thread on blowlamps some 10 years back :-
> Blow lamps
> I also went through starting procedures etc (Page 1)
> View attachment 123756
> ...


Hi Ken,

Many thanks for the link and confirmation.

Stay safe and healthy 

TerryD


Ken I said:


> Here's a thread on blowlamps some 10 years back :-
> Blow lamps
> I also went through starting procedures etc (Page 1)
> View attachment 123756
> ...


P.s.
Hi Ken, 

Having seen that old thread on Blowlamps I must respond, to most folks of a certain age in the UK at least, if you just sing "dum, dum, dum, dum..."the response is almost certain to be  "...Esso Blue".  Probably one of the simplest and best advertising jingles ever.

Stay safe,

TerryD


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## Steamchick (Mar 13, 2021)

"Get your Esso Blue from your Esso Bloo-dealer". I remember asking my Dad what a Bloo-dealer was? We got it from our local iron-monger for our Rippingille room heater. - So he became known as the "Bloo-dealer" after that! The people opposite always use "Pink Paraffin" - but their rooms stunk of the fumes - I reckon now that it wasn't the fuel, just the maintenance of the wick... - Turned-up too high? - They had some yellow flame, which we never had on our Rippingille.
I think that's where I first learned of some principles of combustion. My Dad explained the pre-heater was the reason the heater could draw-in lots of air and mix with the paraffin vapour to burn cleanly - and by heating a wire gauze in front of the reflector the heat was radiated - not just convected exhaust. (A whole physics lesson before I even knew "physics" existed!
I later used a wick paraffin room-lamp on my Brother's boat that was not the typical Hurricane flat wick type. It had a tall glass chimney to develop the draught and had a mantle over a small circular wick with central air intake so a blue flame was created that heated the Mantle to incandescence for the light. The best "wicked" lamp I have seen. My Brother said it was "an American lamp" - of the type used in Westerns by the Cowboys' wives when they returned home at night after weeks away...., or whatever. But rarely do you see the type with a proper mantle.
Having owned Tilley pressure lamps, various fuelled burners, and more recently studied a bit about burner design, I am back (almost) to the Rippingille radiant wire mesh with making a wire-mesh Propane burner for a loco fire-box. This is my target... (see pdf). 200kW/sq.m.

K2


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## willray (Mar 13, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> ...
> I later used a wick paraffin room-lamp on my Brother's boat that was not the typical Hurricane flat wick type. It had a tall glass chimney to develop the draught and had a mantle over a small circular wick with central air intake so a blue flame was created that heated the Mantle to incandescence for the light. The best "wicked" lamp I have seen. My Brother said it was "an American lamp" - of the type used in Westerns by the Cowboys' wives when they returned home at night after weeks away...., or whatever.
> ...



There have been a number of manufacturers of variations on this idea, but at least in the US, the overwhelming majority of these are Aladdin lamps.

Current owner of the Aladdin product line

Great lamps.  Roughly 60 Watts of warm-white lighting, almost zero smoke/smell.  We light the living room with a couple of these quite often.


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