# Kerzel is finally running



## jimsshop1 (Nov 27, 2016)

Hi all,

   I started the Kerzel almost 2 years ago. After machining all the parts and assembling it all, I tried for months to get it running. It would fire with a drill running it but as soon as the drill was removed it would stall. I even wore out one of the crank bushings from trying everything I knew to get it to run on it's own. Finally I put it away and moved on to rebuilding a couple of full size hit miss engines. In doing these restorations I realized that the flywheels were massive and heavy on both of them. This got me to thinking about the Kerzel. Maybe the flywheels were not heavy enough to keep the engine running so I turned a couple of Brass Rings and heated them up a bit and dropped them over the original flywheels. Then I trued them up in my trusty South Bend 9" and put them back on the Kerzel. Guess what? The thing ran like a top! Problem solved. I now have a beautiful running engine and would like to post a video of it running for you guys to see. I have uploaded the video to youtube but can't figure out how to post it on here. If someone could help me do this I will show it on here today.

BTW I have been on here for a couple years under a different name as 65arboc but for some reason I lost my account and had to re register as a new user. Thanks for all I have learned from this forum. What a great bunch of people on here!::thumbup:

Jim in Pa


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 27, 2016)

Congratulations on a running engine. Start your you-tube video playing. Up at the very top of the screen in the title line, right click--that will hi-lite the entire title line. That opens up a sub menu with the option to "copy" click on :copy: then come back to the forum, start a new post under this existing thread and right click, then accept "paste". That should be all there is too it.---Brian


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 27, 2016)

Thanks Brian, hopefully this will work.

https://youtu.be/8fTa-4WJY5M


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 27, 2016)

Jim--You have done a lovely job. The only comment I have to make is that it is not going in and out of hit and miss mode very much, it is running more as a conventional 4 cycle engine. If you run slightly weaker springs on the governor arms you will get it to hit, then miss 4 or 5 cycles, then hit again. Nonetheless, it is a great achievement to have a lovely and running engine.---Brian


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## Cogsy (Nov 27, 2016)

Nice job, great work. 

With your YouTube link, use the one from a 'normal YouTube watch page rather than from your account dashboard, that doesn't have YouTube split (not youtu.be) and has the word "watch" in it and it will display within your thread itself.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTa-4WJY5M&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Jim--You have done a lovely job. The only comment I have to make is that it is not going in and out of hit and miss mode very much, it is running more as a contemporary 4 cycle engine. If you run slightly weaker springs on the governor arms you will get it to hit, then miss 4 or 5 cycles, then hit again. Nonetheless, it is a great achievement to have a lovely and running engine.---Brian



Brian,

Thank you for the kind comments. Actually the hit miss mode is not working at all in this video. Besides getting the perfect 14:1 fuel ratio with the vapor (carb), the hit miss mode is the most difficult part of this build. I have made that little trip lever at least 3 times and if I fiddle with the governor settings I can get it to do the hit miss thing but can't seem to achieve the ideal rpm to keep it running. I will keep trying though. Yes it is a great feeling to finally get this engine running! My friends are amazed and some have asked me if it is a kit. But when I tell them that I made every part except the gears and the spark plug, they are even more amazed. It was a fun but sometimes frustrating project and I want to especially thank you Brian for the inspiration to build this beautiful running engine. Before I started back on the Kerzel, I built the Webster just to see if I could build a running engine and it was much simpler to build and started first thing. What I didn't like about the Webster was that it got very hot if run very long and I would have to keep replacing the O-ring. With the Kerzel I have run it steady for over an hour and the water in the hopper only gets to 160 degrees. Thank you again for the help. I only wish I could be as great a machinist as you are!:thumbup:

Jim in Pa.


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Cogsy said:


> Nice job, great work.
> 
> With your YouTube link, use the one from a 'normal YouTube watch page rather than from your account dashboard, that doesn't have YouTube split (not youtu.be) and has the word "watch" in it and it will display within your thread itself.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTa-4WJY5M&feature=youtu.be



Cogsy,

  Thank you for the kudos. I'm not sure what you mean though about youtube and does it really matter how I present the video?

Thank you,

Jim in Pa.


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## Cogsy (Nov 28, 2016)

jimsshop1 said:


> Cogsy,
> 
> Thank you for the kudos. I'm not sure what you mean though about youtube and does it really matter how I present the video?
> 
> ...


 
No worries Jim, you can post any link you want to of course, but if you use the type I used the video shows up in the forum rather than opening on the Youtube site. Personal preference and it really doesn't matter.
It is a bit difficult to explain, but if you look at the link you posted and the one that shows up in the quote you did of my post , you can see the subtle difference.


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Cogsy said:


> No worries Jim, you can post any link you want to of course, but if you use the type I used the video shows up in the forum rather than opening on the Youtube site. Personal preference and it really doesn't matter.
> It is a bit difficult to explain, but if you look at the link you posted and the one that shows up in the quote you did of my post , you can see the subtle difference.



I see the difference but still don't understand how to do it. Computer illiterate I guess


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## Engine maker (Nov 28, 2016)

Is it my imagination or is your engine running backwards??????


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 28, 2016)

There is no "backwards" to these engines. Rotation is determined by how you set the exhaust valve to open when setting the valve timing. The intake valve is atmospheric, so needs no cam. You can set these engines up to run either clockwise or counterclockwise. I set my engines up to run clockwise when viewed from the starter hub end, because that way the chuck on my variable speed drill which I use as a starter doesn't loosen off.


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Brian Rupnow said:


> There is no "backwards" to these engines. Rotation is determined by how you set the exhaust valve to open when setting the valve timing. The intake valve is atmospheric, so needs no cam. You can set these engines up to run either clockwise or counterclockwise. I set my engines up to run clockwise when viewed from the starter hub end, because that way the chuck on my variable speed drill which I use as a starter doesn't loosen off.



Thank you Brian for explaining that. That is exactly why mine is running the direction it is.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 28, 2016)

Jim--I had to open my 3D model of the Kerzel to confirm this--You have two choices when it comes to making the kerzel go into hit and miss mode. You can try and find a pair of weaker tension springs that hold the governor arms together (which is what I did, finally having to wind my own springs from 0.013" guitar strings)---or---you can play around with the weight of the governor weights. From what I see on my solid model, it should be possible to drill and tap both of the governor weights with something like  a #6-32 thread, and add washers to each weight until your engine starts to go into hit and miss mode. (the springs are not shown on my model, because they are such a bear to make a model of)---Brian


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## pkastagehand (Nov 28, 2016)

Brian Rupnow said:


> There is no "backwards" to these engines. Rotation is determined by how you set the exhaust valve to open when setting the valve timing. The intake valve is atmospheric, so needs no cam. You can set these engines up to run either clockwise or counterclockwise. I set my engines up to run clockwise when viewed from the starter hub end, because that way the chuck on my variable speed drill which I use as a starter doesn't loosen off.



since I came from 1:1 scale hit and miss engines.  Most if not all of the ones I'm familiar with did run the other way.  Obviously doesn't matter I suppose though there may have been logical reasons at one time.  Thrust angle on con rod when firing maybe to reduce forces on main bearing caps?  Who knows....


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 28, 2016)

Full size hit and miss engines were "general purpose" engines, used for everything from buzz saws to water pumps to industrial machinery. I have only had experience with one or two full size hit and miss engines back when I was a kid, and I don't remember now which way they ran. Jim--a question--were you using a Viton o-ring in your Webster, or just a normal black rubber o-ring? I run Viton rings, which are a heat resistant compound, and I have never had one melt.


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Full size hit and miss engines were "general purpose" engines, used for everything from buzz saws to water pumps to industrial machinery. I have only had experience with one or two full size hit and miss engines back when I was a kid, and I don't remember now which way they ran. Jim--a question--were you using a Viton o-ring in your Webster, or just a normal black rubber o-ring? I run Viton rings, which are a heat resistant compound, and I have never had one melt.



Brian,

I was not using viton in the Webster because I could not find the correct size, however I am using a viton ring in the Kerzel. I'm having too much fun with the Kerzel right now and will get back to the Webster later!

Thank you,

Jim


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## Engine maker (Nov 28, 2016)

That's correct, you can make it run in any direction you set it up for, but in the hundreds of engines I've seen I've only seen one other run counter clockwise. Depending on the timing  may have been why it wouldn't run. Nice build though!

Jim


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 28, 2016)

Engine maker said:


> That's correct, you can make it run in any direction you set it up for, but in the hundreds of engines I've seen I've only seen one other run counter clockwise. Depending on the timing  may have been why it wouldn't run. Nice build though!
> 
> Jim



Engine maker,

Thanks for the kind words . I have 2 full size Hit-miss I restored a while back. One is a 3hp Economy and the other is a 2hp Jacobsen made in my home town around 1920. They both run clockwise. While re-assembling the Economy I realized how important the heft of the flywheels was so I added more weight to the flywheels on the Kerzel and away it went, running great without changing any of the timing.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 28, 2016)

It is considered ill mannered to post a video of your own stuff in somebody else's thread, so I won't do that. However---although I was able to get my Kerzel to pop in and out of hit and miss mode quite nicely, I was never able to get one good, definitive pop, and then a series of misses followed by another good "pop" It runs and it hits and misses, but nowhere near as nicely as many other builds I have seen. I have always put that down to the fact that my Viton ring gives more drag on the piston than a cast iron ring would. I suppose it is possible that the flywheels as per original design are simply not heavy enough. Hmmmm----makes me wonder---My flywheels are currently 3 1/2" diameter, with an aluminum center and a brass outer rim but I could probably find room to put 4 1/2" outer rims on my centers, if I put a riser under the engine base. What diameter are your flywheels? My Kerzel is built to the original scale.--Also--when I look straight down the top of your water reservoir, I can see a flat bottom in there. Doesn't your water jacket go all the way around the cylinder liner? When you look down the top of the water reservoir on my engine you can see the round surface of the cylinder liner.


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## jimsshop1 (Nov 29, 2016)

Brian Rupnow said:


> It is considered ill mannered to post a video of your own stuff in somebody else's thread, so I won't do that. However---although I was able to get my Kerzel to pop in and out of hit and miss mode quite nicely, I was never able to get one good, definitive pop, and then a series of misses followed by another good "pop" It runs and it hits and misses, but nowhere near as nicely as many other builds I have seen. I have always put that down to the fact that my Viton ring gives more drag on the piston than a cast iron ring would. I suppose it is possible that the flywheels as per original design are simply not heavy enough. Hmmmm----makes me wonder---My flywheels are currently 3 1/2" diameter, with an aluminum center and a brass outer rim but I could probably find room to put 4 1/2" outer rims on my centers, if I put a riser under the engine base. What diameter are your flywheels? My Kerzel is built to the original scale.--Also--when I look straight down the top of your water reservoir, I can see a flat bottom in there. Doesn't your water jacket go all the way around the cylinder liner? When you look down the top of the water reservoir on my engine you can see the round surface of the cylinder liner.



Hi Brian,

I added a 1/2" ring of brass 3/4" wide to my flywheels so now they are 4" in dia.. To answer your question about the way I did the water reservoir, I was not sure I could seal the head end of the cast iron sleeve the way I machined it. I only milled enough into the top for about an ounce of water. It still only gets up to about 160 degrees when running for long periods of time. I think adding weight and overall dia. to your flywheels will help your hit miss problem. I got mine to hit miss last night for a while but it still doesn't sound like a real full size engine. Perhaps the compression being so low in these small models has something to do with it. My full size Ecomomy Hit-Miss makes several revolutions before firing and when it does it will surprise you with a very loud bark. Of course that's coming from a 1-1/4" x 3' straight pipe! I love to hear that thing run but my dog hates it!

Have a good day,
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 29, 2016)

The reason that hit and miss engines run so cool, is that during the "miss" cycles they are pumping ambient temperature air through the cylinder, carrying off the heat. Many people build model hit and miss engines and run them without any water in the reservoir. However, if you run your engine for any period of time without the "miss" cycle being activated, chances are pretty good that the engine will be damaged. I'm not sure what the effect will be of having water present only in the reservoir but not all the way around the cylinder.


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## PCT (Feb 16, 2018)

jimsshop1 said:


> Brian,
> 
> I was not using viton in the Webster because I could not find the correct size, however I am using a viton ring in the Kerzel. I'm having too much fun with the Kerzel right now and will get back to the Webster later!
> 
> ...


I'm almost at the point of making the piston for my Kerzel engine build, and am debating whether to make cast iron rings per the plans or to use an o ring.

Question:  Did you cut the piston groove for the o ring on your Kerzel near where the plans show iron rings or in a different place?  How about the width and depth of the groove to fit the o ring?

Thanks


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 16, 2018)

It was a long time ago that I built my Kerzel. I put my o-ring groove 1/4" down from the top of the piston, 0.058" deep x 0.093" wide.--However, a word to the wise. The Viton rings create a lot more "drag" in the cylinder than a cast iron ring. So much so that it interferes with how many revolutions the engine will coast thru in "miss" mode. If I ever made another hit and miss, I would try really hard to make cast iron rings.


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## PCT (Feb 18, 2018)

Thanks Brian, I think that I will take your advice and make cast iron rings.  I will learn more that way anyway.  

Paul


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