# Coming along nicely



## Fingers (Dec 10, 2010)

My half built flame eater waiting for me to finish.




















Cleaning and polishing will follow later


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## ozzie46 (Dec 10, 2010)

Looks real good Fingers.

 Ron


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## Fingers (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks Ron


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## Peter. (Dec 10, 2010)

Nice chunky flywheel!

I like the finish you're getting on your chassis parts there Fred. For a shine like that I use a flycutter and then a quick attack of the polishing wheel.


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## IronHorse (Dec 10, 2010)

Looks good, is it your own design?


IronHorse


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## Fingers (Dec 11, 2010)

No lads not my design I got my plans of Jan ridders, thanks for the comment on the finish on the Chassis parts I just used a standard fly cutter with the head on the mill clocked for squareness


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## NickG (Dec 11, 2010)

Looks great fingers, looking forward to this as I haven't seen one of this sort.

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks I should have some more pictures to add tomorrow, I'm looking forward to getting it all finished


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 11, 2010)

That's looking good! Finish it! Finish it! ;D


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## Fingers (Dec 11, 2010)

Made good progress yesterday nearly finished my lathe work now just some milling and fitting left, here are a few more pics
J


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## Fingers (Dec 12, 2010)

Hi just another update i will try get the top of my cylinder and the shafts to start assembling it made later.


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## robwilk (Dec 12, 2010)

Very impressive fingers . Looking forward to seeing it finished :bow:

Rob....


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## NickG (Dec 13, 2010)

Looks great Fingers,

It looks a really solid design as Jan's usually do, looks a bit of a beast actually, could you remind us of the size of it? / Bore, stroke etc?

Thanks

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your kind comments, the cylinder is 79mm with a 24mm x 36mm piston and a stroke of 40mm. I finished assembling all my parts Just need to a few more pieces, the springs being my downfall as I cannot get any spring steel handy, I wonder if I could use a 1/16 welding rod it's just a straight spring with one loop ?


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## Omnimill (Dec 13, 2010)

Very nice work, I got the plans for this from Jan a while back but have yet to decide whether to attempt it or not ...

I'll be watching your progress!

Vic.


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## Fingers (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks pat il have to keep scavenging something will turn up, il let ye know what I find. Will try and get some more done today fingers crossed. Il have some new pictures aswel if you do decide to make it omnimill any questions I can help you with just ask .
Regards j


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## Fingers (Dec 14, 2010)

Really is getting close to trying my first run, just 2 little springs holing me up, not to worry wont be long.


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## Fingers (Dec 15, 2010)

Hi just wondering if anybody knows do I need to balance this flywheel? Also when I spin it by hand now the way it is, it dose about 12 revolutions is this free enough. I do not have the valve attached yet.
Regards j


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## cfellows (Dec 15, 2010)

Lovely work, Fingers. From your descripton, it sounds like the engine spins over freely enough. Of course, the next question is, how is the fit between the piston and the cylinder? I wouldn't worry about balancing the flywheel at this point. These engines don't typically turn over fast enough for vibration to be a problem.

Chuck


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## Fingers (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks chuck
Well if I cover the slot in the cylinder with my tumb it won't turn over even with plenty force so I'm pretty confident the fit is good, at least untill the brass wears out. If I get it to run I will strip it all down and champher all my edges and a good polish, I was even picking some timber for a base today I got a slice of rose wood about 1" thick with bark still on I'm thinking of varnishing it all up for a base, or should I just put it on some plained teak ? 
Regards j 








Please bear in mind i only cut it with chainsaw today so it will look better when thinned and sanded, or is it silly.


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## NickG (Dec 15, 2010)

Looking good, I quite like the base - it's different.

Jan has some trouble shooting tips and guidelines on his website about how free running it should be with and without piston / valve assembly on the other flame licker that I made but this has an even lower power output so reducing friction is more critical. Still, might give you some pointers, look at the video on top right too.

http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_happer_inw_schuif/inw_schuif_frameset.htm

also look at the 2nd video on the page for your version - although I still wouldn't recommend it, somebody has used brass for the cylinder there, he has a vid of it spinning with valve attached and no cylinder head.

Nick


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## cl350rr (Dec 15, 2010)

your base... silly? I think not. It personalizes your engine in a way that makes it look unique. great idea and a really good looking engine.

R


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## Fingers (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks again everyone i must go now read all about troubleshooting I never saw this link before ;D will come in handy for tomorrow, hopfully the day i will try firing it up for a first run.
Regards J


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## Fingers (Dec 15, 2010)

Just after reading the troubleshooting guide from above ,I must say my engine dose not run nearly as free as Jans horizontal type :-[ 

View attachment Testing for friction.mov


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## NickG (Dec 16, 2010)

I wouldn't let it put you off at least trying it though. As I said, on the page for the type you are building there's a video of somebody elses engine he's put on. He does a test with and without valve and it doesn't run for nearly as long as the horizontal. I'm sure the vertical with the more traditional valve will have more power, having said that, it'd still be good practice to get the friction as low as possible.

Is your movie with the valve attached? Your type of engine has some noticable compression, or vacuum! The valve shuts before bottom dead centre presumably?

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 16, 2010)

Well Nick, no in my video the valve is not attached yet, I must be going blind also I can't find the video with a vertical type giving a demonstration. If you can explain where it is I would love to see it
 many thanks 
J


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## NickG (Dec 16, 2010)

J,

the vid is on the right hand side, 2nd one down. The top one is Jans.
http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_happer_marc/happer_marc_frameset.htm

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks Nick 
For some reason that video dose not appear on my iPhone but checked on my laptop and there it was brass cylinder included lol I think it might be free enough fingers crossed, I managed to get some 1mm steel wire today for my valve springs. I'm hoping to make them and the final 2 bushes to connect the springs to the valves. All going well I will be trying for my first run tonight ,if I can figure out how to time it. Should the valve be at top centre while the piston is at the bottom of the stroke or is it a 90 degree offset like on a Stirling engine ?
Any help greatly appreciated regarding this timing 
Regards J


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## NickG (Dec 16, 2010)

not sure why they don't work on the i phone!

Can't wait to see it run, usually the valve should close just before bottom dead centre and open just before top dead centre on engines of this type.

I'm sure Jan will have better instructions on his website though.

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks nick 
Iv just spent the last 8 hours playing with this trying to get it to run, still no joy ???
ARrrrrrrrraghh!!!


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## NickG (Dec 17, 2010)

J,

It's annoying, I had the same thing with mine as have many other people, but persevere!

You need to systematically go through the trouble shooting tips as for the other engine, it's a little different with yours though.

First step is, as we've discussed to ensure friction is as low as you can get it. Without the valve on there is no disruption to the airflow in and out of the port, it is a restriction but it should still do quite a few revolutions (I would aim for at least 15-20 with a strong flick of the flywheel.)

You don't want the valve to be a large source of friction either, your springs need to seal but with the least pressure possible to keep it flat against the port face - that's all. If it's flat, the vacuum will suck it against the face anyway.

The other thing with yours is the timing. The valve should be open as the piston is travelling down but should be fully closed a few degrees before bottom dead centre. If you've got the shape of the cam right, you shouldn't have to worry about anything else.

Then there's the burner - that port is very large and because it's horizontal it doesn't lend itself to getting a flame that will cover it. Make sure your flame is large - use a flat wick the same size as the port or fray your wick out a lot and leave quite a bit sticking out, you'll need a large flame as you can't afford to suck in any cold air.

Study the videos again and videos on u tube for any tips. Look in particular at the flames on the type I made, the internal valve version - they are massive!

You'll get there, hope this helps.

Nick


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## Omnimill (Dec 17, 2010)

One of the things I noticed with this design is that the piston is very much longer on the vertical engine than the horizontal one. I noticed on my own internal valve engine that the piston binds in the cylinder if it's orientated vertically and suspect Jan noticed something similar before he designed the Marc vertical engine. I do wonder therefore if there is more chance of excessive friction using such a long piston. I also wonder if the full diameter of the piston has to run the full length or whether it could be relieved somewhat in the middle section?

Vic.


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## NickG (Dec 17, 2010)

That sounds a good idea vic to relieve it in the middle, strange that it would be any difference vertically though, if anything there is less sideways force as the mass of the piston doesn't account towards the friction on the vertical.

Nick


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## Omnimill (Dec 17, 2010)

Nick, I think the piston on the engines we built are a bit "too square" - the diameter is too large for the length.
If I spin mine over held vertically with the cylinder downwards it spins nicely, if I try the same thing with the cylinder pointed upwards the piston binds in the cylinder! scratch.gif This seems strange to me for an engine that runs nicely under flame. When I first saw the "Marc" plans I gave a the piston dimensions a nod as I figured it needed a long piston but the friction must be quite high if you're not careful. If I were building it I'd probably "modify" the design a little to make things easy for me! ;D I'm actually wondering if I can build an internal valve version in a vertical format? ??? - think I'll wait for you to try Nick ... :big:

Vic.


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## Fingers (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks guys
I think I have found the source of my problem, my brass! Cylinder seems to expand to much in the heat causing to much friction which I don't have when it's cold. I know it's the wrong material from listening to alll of your answers but I dont have time to make a CI one just yet so later on today I think I will try lap the cylinder out a bit more to try and compensate for expansion hopefully if I'm careful I can get them to work together. If I don't it will be the new year before I get back to make a new one :-
Thanks all, will keep ye posted 
Regards J


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## mklotz (Dec 17, 2010)

When the cylinder expands, the bore diameter *increases*. I fail to see how this could increase friction.


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## Fingers (Dec 17, 2010)

Ok I'm listening carefully
This is where I stand I must be thinking wrongly, before I went to bed last nite when I was trying to get it to run it was turning nice and freely but now the piston is tight in the cylinder any ideas


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## Fingers (Dec 18, 2010)

Hi everyone
I stripped down my engine last night and honed a little off my cylinder as i think the fit was to closeI still cant get it to run, I dont seem to be able to get the timing correct according to the plans. I am on my second cam now still no luck !
This is definitely not going to plan lol ,I'l just have to keep plugging away and troubleshooting. 

View attachment friction 2.mov


View attachment testing friction.mov


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## Fingers (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks Pat 
Persevere i will i just got my first run there now 8) it only lasted about 5 seconds but I know I'm on the right track  ;D
.I have a question regarding my fuel 'methylated spirits' when i took the top of the cylinder after that little run it had what looked like a lot of water, anybody any idea why this would happen?
Kind Regards 
Jamie


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## Fingers (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks for that Pat i taught maybe there was something wrong with my spirits ie water inside it


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## cl350rr (Dec 18, 2010)

If by "spirits" you mean methyl alcohol, it will entrain water from the air if left in an open container

R


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## Fingers (Dec 18, 2010)

I must remember to always put the cover back on so thanks


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## Jasonb (Dec 18, 2010)

Try warming the engine before you actually fire it up with either a hot air blower or hair drier, it should start easier and the moisture in the air is less likely to condense out onto the cold metal.

Jason


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## Fingers (Dec 18, 2010)

HEY HEY
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Here we go my first fame licker I managed to get it running today I gave the cylinder bore a quick polish with some fine diamond paste mixed with WD40 on a piece of paper, wrapped around a wooden dowel.After this i checked still had good compression but was turning beautifully. I also put back in the original cam that i made ???.It took me a long time to get the spring tension correct but when i did o boy, I was'nt expecting such Ooomph!
Thanks everybody for all your encouragement and advice it was greatly appreciated .
Regards Jamie


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## cl350rr (Dec 18, 2010)

Congratulations!

Looks and sounds awesome

Randel


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## swilliams (Dec 18, 2010)

Awesome little engine Jamie, very well done. :bow: :bow: :bow: I think I'll have to put one of those on my to build list 

Cheers
Steve


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## ozzie46 (Dec 19, 2010)

Yeah another runner!

 Nicely done Jamie, nicely done. :bow: :bow:

 Ron


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 19, 2010)

Congratulations!

I've never seen a flame licker like that. I like it.


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 19, 2010)

Nice runner Jamie. Congratulations and thanks for sharing your work.  :bow:

Cheers,
Phil


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## CaptSensible (Dec 19, 2010)

Beautiful work sir. Fascinating technology as well. Modern industry generates allot of heat and I am interested in harnessing it in different ways to return energy to the system. I think there is a place in the future for this technology.


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## Omnimill (Dec 19, 2010)

Nice runner Jamie, well done!

Vic.


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## robwilk (Dec 19, 2010)

Well done Fingers it is a great runner and looks good :bow:

Rob ........


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## cfellows (Dec 19, 2010)

Beautiful engine! A running flame sucker is always a great accomplishment.

Chuck


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## kcmillin (Dec 19, 2010)

Awesome Job!!!

These engines can be a challenge, you have done a great job on getting it running!

Well Done Thm:

Kel


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## Fingers (Dec 19, 2010)

Hi everyone I am chuffed by all of your comments and kind remarks, 
May I say a big Thank You to everyone here at HMEM who helped along the way either by encouragement or answering my questions and giving me advice.
This little flame licker was my first and I'm sure it won't be the last I love the sound . I know that I made some wrong choices along the way. Foremost probably being the choice of brass for my cylinder, as now I am sure from what I have learned from others that it probably won't last as long as CI but for now I am happy while it runs ;D, secondly I made the error of not choosing rust free steel as recommended for the cylinder valve that is exposed to the flame, That was something that just slipped my mind, for now it is ok. Other then that I can say my biggest problem was just trying to get it to run, between the timing, which I taught I was doing wrong. Then there was the spring tension which as it turns out is very critical. Also when setting the valve to cover the hole at top dead center you must leave the very smallest of a gap just a couple of thou as recommended on Jans website . Now its just left to finish my base.
Cheers Jamie
If I can find my proper camera and not my phone I will try post a better video.
Jamie.......


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## NickG (Dec 20, 2010)

Jamie, well done - it runs superbly. :bow:

It is the first one of this type I've seen except for Jans and the one on his site. It goes at a fair rate. Now you have a feel for everything the next should be easier. I love them too, that's why I started making poppin straight after my success with the other.

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks Nick, It is the only time I have seen one aswel hence the reason why I chose this design, something a little different mind you I have never even saw any flame kicker before except on the Internet


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## Maryak (Dec 20, 2010)

Finger lickin good, (as the colonel would say)

Congratulations. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Fingers (Dec 20, 2010)

Very good lol
Thanks
Jamie


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## compspecial (Dec 20, 2010)

It works on vacuum Pat, the hot air drawn in as the piston moves down, cools, contracts and creates a vacuum because the valve is now closed, this returns the piston to TDC and the cycle repeats. doesn't it? Fingers?


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## Fingers (Dec 20, 2010)

Yes It dose compspecial thank you ,I couldn't of explained it Better ,Infact I couldn't of explained it at all before the other day ,You have summed it all up in a short paragraph nicely done.
Regards Jamie


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## kustomkb (Dec 20, 2010)

Congratulations Jamie. Very nice job, it runs great!


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## Fingers (Dec 20, 2010)

Cheers I'm just looking at it running beside me : , nobody home all day the cylinder felt very cold so naturally I wanted to see if it would work, first flame and of it went, excellent design yet again by Jan ridders.
Regards jamie


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## winklmj (Dec 20, 2010)

Good job...that a nice sounding and looking engine. :bow:


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## Fingers (Dec 22, 2010)

Hi I have a qustion about my flame eater, It runs pretty good but if I leave it for a few hours after running it, I will have to remove the piston and wipe clean the cylinder and piston, the engine will remain free then until after I run it again, my question is should It always be cleaned afterwards , can I use any lubricant on the piston or is it best run dry as I have been doing.
Or maybe I have a problem I have not even considered?
Regards
Jamie


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## NickG (Dec 23, 2010)

Jamie,

Mine was the same, but then a few of the boys that had made 'poppin' (small cam operated valve flame licker) suggested that I try oil. Some use sewing machine type oil as it is very thin but I use car engine oil (thin stuff 0 w 30 if possible) It takes a while to get to temperature but it stops the nasty stuff from the meths adhering to the piston and cylinder so lets you run the next time.

The oil causes too much drag on some peoples engines and stops them from running if they have very tightly toleranced cylinder and piston but yours seems to have loads of power so think it'd be ok. Give it a whirl, the worst that can happen is you'll have to clean it off.

Nick


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## Fingers (Dec 23, 2010)

Thanks Nick
I shall try that with some light engine oil aswell, see how things go. I"ll keep you posted how it works out 
Cheers


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## Longboy (Dec 23, 2010)

........that nasty stuff inside of flame lickers is water vapor. Running with motor oil you will experiance a drag on the engine cuzz now you have sludge ( water and oil). A couple things you can try to dry out the cylinder between runs. WD40 rejects water. Spray into cyl from the con rod side and leave piston at the bottom of cyl. Rubbing alcohol in the top side thru the flapper valve will evaporate the water. Leave the valve open. Starter fluid. Does same as the alcohol real qiuck. Jets out of the can alittle quick too but leaves no residue and leave the valve open.


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## Fingers (Dec 23, 2010)

Thanks longboy
I taught maybe it was a problem with my engine but if this naturally happens in all flame eaters I am not to bothered. I will follow both of your advice trying a few different oil types and see which suits best, also I can easily remove the cap from the cylinder after use and wipe the cylinder clean with alcohol :, after all the time I spent getting it to run I wont complain about a little cleaning regime cheers lads 
Jamie


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## MikeR C (Dec 24, 2010)

Fingers,
I have a poppin with CI cylinder and CI piston. After it was finished I ran it a couple of times and like you I would have to take it apart and clean the brown "stuff" that the alcohol left in the cylinder. I discussed this with with Mr. Senft via e-mail and he said that with metal cylinder and piston I should be using oil (it shows an oiler in the plans). So I built an oiler and have tried several types of oil and the one that works best for me so far is 0W-40W Mobil1 synthetic.
i don't try to flip it all the way over. I just turn the flywheel so it sucks the fire in then let it bounce back. This warms the cylinder up to allow the condensation to evaporate. After flipping it this way for a while it begins to oscillate on it own and after a bit of that if you flip the flywheel so it makes over center it will start.
There is a tiny bit of oil left from the previous run and I don't turn on the oiler till it is running by itself. The vacuum sucks the oil up past the piston and it is ejected through the flame port taking the "stuff" with it. I have not had to clean it since using oil.
I burn "Everclear" which is almost straight ethanol.
When I build another one I am going to try a stainless steel cylinder (no rust) and a graphite piston. According to Jerry Howell using a graphite piston you won't need oil and the film of graphite on the cylinder will prevent most of the "stuff" from sticking


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## Fingers (Jan 5, 2011)

Cheers for the info mike
I have not had much time the past few weeks to try any of the above. I have since purchased mobil 0w-40w fully synthetic oil. 20 euro for the smallest I could get what a rip off lol. Anyway I have tried a few different amounts and it seems that it only like the very smallest amount just a smear from my finger . After this if will stay free from residue for longer maybe a full day lol, I might look into an oiler that will suit a vertical piston ???
Jamie


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