# New Holland Igniter Problem



## putputman (Jun 15, 2009)

I am just finishing up a ½ scale of a New Holland ½ HP model. This model is a little different than any I have built in the past. It uses an igniter for spark and the fuel mixer valve is at the back of the engines and connected to the cylinder with a series of pipe and elbows. I am having difficulty getting it started and keeping it running. It will fire and run for a 10-20 seconds and stop. I can not tell if it is an ignition problem, fuel problem, or timing problem.

1st off, I don't think I completely understand how a igniter works. Could someone explain this to me in terms that a nonelectrical person can understand?  ??? ??? ???

Can the coil be damaged by allowing the points remain closed for a short time?

I am not sure the igniter working once the engine gets up to speed. Is there a way to tell if it is still firing? With a spark plug, I can assume that if it isn't fouled it is probably working. With the igniter, I can tell if it is recharging or just floating. There are so many parts and springs involved that it could be malfunctioning. Until I am sure the igniter is working properly, I really can't concentrate on the fuel problem.

If anyone out there has built this engine, I would like to hear from them also.


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## putputman (Jun 16, 2009)

Geeeeeeeez, I can't believe I am the only one that has had trouble with a New Holland engine or an igniter.  :shrug: I think my post got buried so fast not many of you guys saw my "desperate cry for help".

I still have the problem. I have got some help on some other forums but no solutions yet. I'll listen to any ideas!!!


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## Kermit (Jun 16, 2009)

Have you checked the coil with a meter yet? A check for 'continuity as it is called.


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## Stan (Jun 16, 2009)

The part that sparks is the ignitor. It replaces the spark plug's function and the spark jumps when the points are mechanically separated. In order to give you any help I would need to know what kind of ignition system you have (I know nothing about New Holland engines). On old full size engines that I have worked on that had ignitors, most had magnetos, some had impulse generators, some used a buzz coil (like a model T) and I saw one with a battery and coil setup but it might have been a retrofit.

On low compression engines, the timing is not very critical and is set by adjusting the push rod so that the ignitor points kick just before top center.

If your engine will run for twenty seconds, I doubt it is timing. It could be something else in the ignition system (what kind?) but I would be more suspect of fuel problem.


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## putputman (Jun 16, 2009)

Kermit, I did check the coil with a multi-meter and got continuity. I don't really know how to read the resistance properly. Being the engine runs for a short time, I assume the coil is good.

Stan, the igniter is a simple (maybe not so simple) mechanical trip mechanism. The points are tunsten. A coil & and a 6V battery. I attached photos of the igniter.

The mechanical function seems to be working OK.

I am starting to lean towards fuel problems. The fuel tank & mixer valve is at the back of the engine. The fuel mixer has to travel through about 8 - 10 inches of tubing before it reaches the cylinder. This is the way the engine is designed. I can only assume that it has worked although I have only seen videos of one engine running, but it ran well.

Any suggestions on the fuel problem?


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## Maryak (Jun 17, 2009)

PPM,

I have this nagging suspicion you may have a air leak, or your fuel draw off point is misplaced or partially blocked, or is your engine flooding and killing the spark. ??? ??? ???. When it stops how quickly can you look at the igniter in the cylinder. ???

Just a few things that should keep you busy for a while. : :

Good luck in solving this frustrating bug.

Best Regards


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## Kermit (Jun 17, 2009)

The contacts have to close and complete a circuit for the battery through a coil of wire. The contacts are opened and closed which sends electricity to the coil for a short time. The battery current INDUCES a high voltage pulse in the secondary of the spark coil.

Are we SURE that the contact points which open and close are continuing to make good contact when the engine reaches speed.

Good sparks being made at slower speed and then losing all spark at higher RPM would point to your 'points'...possibly not tensioned enough and high speed is kicking it out or bouncing it off the contact to quickly.  

can you spark onto a screwdriver blade that is touching the igniter and watch the spark as the engine gains speed?  I don't know if such is possible, like it was on my first car(67 Ford Falcon). If your spark stays the same size and color as the engine speeds up then you have other problems, but if the spark gets reddish or just plain goes away I would look at the contact points and the tension adjust you are using. The other possibility is a short inside the coil that has effectively reduced the sparking power of your coil. Substituting in another known good one would be a proper test.


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## bmuss51 (Jun 17, 2009)

i just finished a 1 1/2 hp nh motor and had the same type of problem to keep it running.and after asking some ?'s i came down to a couple of items that got me to have a motor that would keep running.
first thing i found out was that the carb bronze has alot of sand holes in it. and was sucking air. so check the carb by putting air pressure to it under water to check for pin holes and then plug them with j-b weld or solder.   this was my biggest problem !
 second i had looked at the ignitor, witch was working and snapping open as it should except for the length of the trip. which was causing it it to do a double trip so to speak . this happened when the angle of the trip came up to high. so what i did was to make the skinny part about 1/16" longer and now have a good solid one time trip of the ignition.
 third thing i found was that the timing was off. and the way i set the timing was to set the highest point of the cam lobe and contact of the rocker arm together. and then adjust the crank to bottom center. and then adjust the exhaust valve first on the rocker arm to start to open just past bottom dead center and the screw should be adjusted so the valve stays open to almost top center. but be careful to make sure you have enough clearance at top center with the spring or you could bend the rocker arm.(found that one out the hard way, and had to rebend the rocker arm.) then when that's done go for the ignitor setting. which is set to trip about 3-5 degrees btdc. but with the setting you can adjust the motor to run slow by advancing the timing to past tdc and to get power , adjust it to before tdc.
 the way i found all this out was with a Friend the has scale model motors and helped me get mine to run and run and run.
 i figure you will have to play with the gov. as i did to get it to trip and miss as i did , but don't do that until you get the motor running good.
 hope this will help you !

right now i'm at the point of final finish assembly of the motor. and what i mean is that i put the motor together unpainted and got her running for about 25 hrs just to make sure everything was as i wanted . before i put a finish paint job and finial polish.


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## Kermit (Jun 17, 2009)

http://www.old-engine.com/magign.htm


found some tutorial pages on the ignitor.

Something you might consider unless you already know this. The sparks happens when the contacts seperate, not when they contact. Perhaps a timing issue that doesn't cause problems until the engine gets some speed up.


Kermit


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## Stan (Jun 17, 2009)

> Can the coil be damaged by allowing the points remain closed for a short time?



If I understand your system correctly, you are drawing coil current any time the battery is hooked up and the points are closed. The coil should be designed for this current and not be damaged.


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## Andrewinpopayan (Jun 17, 2009)

If these engines use a standard threaded spark plug, you could put a "Colortune" plug in and watch it spark while the motors running, you would also be able to see what the mixture is like.


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## putputman (Jun 17, 2009)

Well I spent most of the day trying to get that beast running. No luck.
Started out by mixing a batch of fresh gas. Coleman fuel & a little WD40. Wanted to make sure old gas wasn't the problem. It wasn't.

Next I attacked any chance of leakage anywhere in the fuel track. Bmuss51 and Maryak got me thinking about that. I disconnected the entire fuel system and made an adapter that would allow me to use my Jan Ridder designed vapor gas tank. I have use that system on several of my engines and it work good. To make sure it was working I hooked it up to one of my Red Wing engines and run it. I then hooked it up to the New Holland and left the carburetor set as it was on the RW. It still did not run. It would fire now & then but wouldn't keep running. This test should have eliminated the question of leakage being the problem as it is connected directly to the cylinder. It doesn't mean I won't have leakage when I go back to the original set up.

Next I took the igniter off and tested it by actuating it as fast as I could by hand. It had a good blue fire and didn't seem to miss fire. This obviously isn't as fast as it would be in a running engine but it is about the best test I could think of. I'll try to attach a video showing the actuator.





I guess I'll have to sleep on it for another night. 

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. Please keep them coming. I'm running out of ideas.


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## bmuss51 (Jun 18, 2009)

sense you put up the vid of the ignitor, which looks like it operating as it should. i think your problem is either in the fuel sys or timing.
 my thoughts are that you might want to do a movie of the short run your getting and post it. so we can help you look for the problem. 
 1.does the motor have good compression?

 2.is the timing set that the exhaust valve starts to open just past bottom dead center?

 3.is there any compression leakage at the valves or at the plugs going to the valve Assembly area?

 4. you might want to skip the timing a tooth or two. the reason i say this is i was off several teeth.


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## Kermit (Jun 18, 2009)

Exhaust gasses can act as an insulator. There is the chance that your spark plug is not far enough into the cylinder and after one or two ignitions in the cylinder it becomes surrounded by the hot exhaust fumes and no longer ignites anything.

Are there any other spark plug types you could substitute?  

The spark, when checked outside the engine is always good. This sounds more and more feasible as I think about it.



Which means I'm probably wrong,
Kermit


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## kuhncw (Jun 18, 2009)

You mentioned in your first post that your New Holland will start and run for 10 to 20 seconds before quitting.

Does it come up to speed enough the governor will latch out to let the engine coast (miss), or does the engine just keep firing until it dies?


Regards,

Chuck


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## putputman (Jun 18, 2009)

Another long day in the shop and still not running.

I did some compression test today. Started out by removing the moveable igniter rod and checking compression through that hole. Got between 35 & 38 psi. Did several tests. 

I then made an adapter to screw into the fuel inlet. Connected an air line with a pressure regulator to it. Pressurized the cylinder with about 20 psi. There were some very slight leaks. A very slight leak between the head and cylinder block. I couldn't really tell if the fit between the exhaust casting & cylinder block was leaking. At any rate, I made gaskets for each area. I did the compression tests again and there was no change. There was a reasonable leakage between the piston and the cylinder and I feel that will decrease with time. The most leakage shown with the pressure test was around the intake valve stem. That has to have enough clearance to allow the intake valve to open under very little cylinder vacuum, so there is not much I can do about it. Besides when the engine is running that will be a very slight vacuum leak which should not hurt the performance that much.

I made a video showing the igniter operation. It may be a little different on this engine compared to other engines. There has been some suggestions to try different plugs. I think when you see the igniter system you'll see why that isn't that easy to do. It would require a new head, point system, and cams. Major changes. Maybe this will answer some of the questions. So far it hasn't run well enough to hit the governor.





On top of everything else, my ice crusher in the refrigerator went south so I had to back off on the martinis for a couple days. Got new parts and back in business now so maybe things are starting to look up.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jun 18, 2009)

putputman  said:
			
		

> On top of everything else, my ice crusher in the refrigerator went south so I had to back off on the martinis for a couple days. Got new parts and back in business now so maybe things are starting to look up.



I hope the new parts are for the fridge. Gotta keep the priorities straight.

Don't know what kind of martinis you're drinking...but stick the bottle in the freezer.
Ice just takes up space.

Wish I could help but I don't know anything about what you're doing. Watching with great interest though.


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## Maryak (Jun 19, 2009)

PPM,

I watched your videos and did some reading. 

How is the cylinder lubricated. ??? Why I ask is the blue smoke when it does fire. Maybe it's being over oiled. ???

Not much help, but worth a try without the cylinder lubricator.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Stan (Jun 19, 2009)

Re your comment on leakage around the intake valve stem. This would indicate a valve not seated properly. During compression and power stroke, the valve should be seated and during intake and exhaust, it doesn't matter.

As on car engines with worn valve guides, on intake stroke it will suck lub oil around the valve stem but otherwise does not affect engine running. HTH Stan


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## putputman (Jun 19, 2009)

Bob, so far I have not used the lubricator but have shot a few drops of spindle oil into the cylinder. That should be pretty much gone by now. You do bring up a good point about the blue smoke. I wonder if I am using too much WD-40 in my gas. I think today I will try a new batch of gas without any WD-40.

Stan, you are absolutely right about the intake valve leakage. I am going to try to lap the valve in today. I guess I wasn't thinking straight when I pressurized the cylinder. The only way I would have had leakage around the valve stem is to have leakage at the valve. :wall: :wall:

It's good to have more sets of eyes looking at these problems. Sometimes after a person works on these engines for a long time, you look right past the obvious. That is what makes this forum so great.


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## Stan (Jun 19, 2009)

One other thing that I found on these atmospheric valves is that the sealing on the valve appeared to be less when the pressure was applied by a slowly rising piston compared to dumping air in suddenly from an air tank. That is; no leak with a pressure test but still low compression when trying to start.


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## rudydubya (Jun 19, 2009)

PPM, I'm a novice at engine building, but when I was first trying to get my hit and miss engine started, I was having both fuel and ignition problems. I could tell when I was finally getting fuel by the mist coming out of the exhaust when it didn't fire. Do you get a fuel mist leaking out of the exhaust when you crank it for several seconds with the drill? My ignition problems turned out to be arcing from the high-voltage wire to the head, not applicable in your case, and the fuel problem was an intake valve spring too strong (too large music wire). There was enough leakage around the piston and head so that the flywheel would turn over a few turns when I flipped it, but there wasn't enough suction to open the intake valve with that spring. When I made a weaker spring things started working.

Good luck.

Rudy


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## bmuss51 (Jun 22, 2009)

i told you in past posts that i was final finishing a nh motor myself. and when i got the motor to the point ready to fire, i had sort of the same problem as you described. i checked the fuel, ignitor for spark and rechecked the timing. and what i found was that after painting i was not getting the spark into the cyl..i did check the voltage at the switch and that showed a complete circut, but i was not getting the voltage to the contact point when assembled. so i had to clean off alittle more paint around the stud head holes ( i am using a head gasket) and then assembled holding the head and twisting against one of the studs and now she fires and runs just like i had it running before the paint job.
 just thought i might be something for you to check !


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## putputman (Jun 22, 2009)

Since my last post I have tried quite a few different trial & error processes trying to eliminate some of the possible problems.

My compression testing has dropped to about 30-32 psi. It has remained pretty consistent for a long time. I feel that it is lower than it probably should be. Most of my engines have run between 45 & 65 psi.

First I connected with an electric motor and v-belt and drove the engine at about 150 rpm for an hour and then at 500 rpm for an hour. 

Second thing I tried was to lap the intake valve. I also relieved the contact area by changing the valve angle by 3 degrees less that the seat. Try softer & heavier springs. ---  No change.

To check for leakage in the head area, I made a new aluminum cover, 3/8 thick, & a gasket to replace the head with all it's holes and moving parts. Had a hole in the middle to check compression. ---  No change.

Next I made a cover & gasket to replace the exhaust valve & casting. ---  No change.

Next I put a real light spring in the exhaust valve to make it operate like an intake valve, and put a real heavy spring in the intake valve so it sealed tightly. --- No change.

Next I made a new piston with two O-rings instead of the 3 cast rings.. This should show if it is the piston rings that are the problem. ---  No change.

I decided to check the compression ratio for this engine. It is 3.2 - 1. That seems very low to me even for a model. Some of my engines figured at about 4.6 -1 and they run pretty good.
I think I figured it right. Stroke + head gap / head gap.

Rudy, yes I do get a mist out the exhaust at times. I usually close the jets a little until that quits. It seems I have a medium knurl on the adjustment screw. I move it one knurl at a time. That is a very fine adjustment. 

My intake valve is working. I can see it move and hear it vibrate when turning the engine over with a drill or by hand. 

Bmuss51
This is the first of many engines that I have built that I painted before I tried running it. This has been a difficult engines with less than the best castings & prints. I started building it last fall and have walked away from it several times during the build. In fact I built three complete engines and have a 4th almost done while building this one. This last time it sat for two months without working on it. I finally decided to paint it and since then I have been trying to get it running.

I am considering removing the piston & connecting rod and turning the engine over with a drill to see if the igniter has a consistent spark. I will be able to look right down the cylinder from behind the engine.

Does any one feel it is just my attitude towards this engine that is the problem.


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## Kermit (Jun 22, 2009)

Wetting the spark gap in the plug with fuel spray?

see if it trys to 'go' with some butane or propane from a torch near the intake without fuel?


It's a mystery that has my attention, but you could probably do without the aggrevation. :-\


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## Maryak (Jun 22, 2009)

putputman  said:
			
		

> Does any one feel it is just my attitude towards this engine that is the problem.



With the perseverance you have shown todate - Absolutely NOT.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Stan (Jun 23, 2009)

Arv: To avoid the frustration of trying t get your engine running, come to my place and work on three sitting on the bench that I haven't got to run. None are i/c so it should be a rest for the brain.

Right now, I can only offer two suggestions. Try some soap solution around the intake valve stem to see if the valve is seating when cranking. One of the tests with the old garage spark plug testers was to check for firing when under pressure. Some plugs that fired fine in free air stopped firing when the pressure was increased. The remedy was to file the gap on the underside of the ground electrode.


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## 90LX_Notch (Jun 23, 2009)

Arv,

I'll throw some stuff into the mix. Just brainstorming here.

Valve timing events: cylinder pressure has a lot to do with valve timing. ie: High performance cams for cars allow the valves to stay open longer (duration) which allows more air in to be compressed on the compression stroke thus yielding higher PSI. If I understand this right, this engine only has an exhaust lobe and the intake opens based on vacuum. I would at least degree the exhaust lobe as if I were installing a cam in a car. ( piston stop, degree wheel and indicator) and make sure they are happening where they are suppose to are to spec. Also, while doing this I would check the ignition timing as far as the points opening and closing in relationship to piston. I would also check for leaks with compressed air right when the ignition would fire.

Did you try different spring tension for the points?

6 volt ignition system- What would happen with 12 volts to it. 

What about putting a vacuum gage on it while cranking it with the drill? May at least yield some type of clue as to what is going on.

Along the lines of Kermit's thinking- I don't know how hard it is to pull the ignitor off, spray some Starting Ether in the cylinder, and put it back on and try to start it. Or, you can always spray it down the carb, but I've found that on power equipment a direct shot into the cylinder works better.



Like I said, I'm just throwing stuff out there. I've never built or worked on this type of engine.

Bob


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## putputman (Jun 23, 2009)

Bob, thanks for your vote of confidence. Sometimes we all need that.

Been following your hit & miss build with interest. I bought that book with the intensions of building that engine, but decided to cut mine out of aluminum bar stock instead of fabricating in steel. Turned out to be one of the better running engines. 

Stan, I'll give the soap solution a try. I'll have to block off the fuel intake port with a pipe plug to be sure.

As far as the igniter firing under pressure, I certainly hope that 30 psi isn't too much pressure for it. This is the lowest compression pressure of any of my engines.

What type of engines do you have that are giving you problems. Maybe there is something I/we can help with.


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## kuhncw (Jun 23, 2009)

Arv, you probably know this, but I'll mention it. An analog volt meter across the ignitor terminals is a handy way to see if the ignitor has continuity as you are cranking. If the points are making good contact the voltage drops to zero as the contacts close. 

Earlier I'd asked if your governr was latching out. I've found on my hit & miss engines that if the governor latches after one firing, the engine seems to run better as rpm stays in a more narrow band. These simple mixers are best in a narrow rpm range. I've noticed on my engines that if I let the engine keep firing so the rpm is increasing, I get to a point where the engine misfires which I believe is due to the mixture being off at that rpm. At least that is my guess. This doesn't help at this point with your New Holland though.

Kent Smith (K & J Machine Shop) in PA, has a New Holland model on his business card so he may know some of the secrets of getting the New Holland to run. He is a vendor at Cabin Fever and his contact information is on Cabin Fever's vendor list. http://www.cabinfeverexpo.com/vendor.html

What type fuel mixer is on the New Holland? Is it a spray bar type or maybe an air valve type like a Lunkenheimer?

Good luck and I think you have a good attitude toward this engine. I am sure you will get it running. 

Regards,

Chuck


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## Stan (Jun 23, 2009)

Arv: All three of the engines have been through the usual remake, redo and swear without any good result. One is a Mizer type Sterling that needs the heat of a 60 watt bulb to make it run instead of the heat from your hand. Another is the test tube with steel wool type Sterling that another board member and myself were sharing notes on. He eventually got his to run but I wasn't pig headed enough. The third is a six cylinder elbow engine that requires fairly precise positioning of parts. After making all the parts twice, I found that my Chinese machinist square, used for layout, was not square. The engine and square are now somewhere in the dark reaches of my shop, hopefully to never see the light of day. 

I like Sterling engines and fire eaters and I have gone through the frustrations of getting them to run properly but sometimes I just run out of patience.


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## putputman (Jun 23, 2009)

Stan, I have never built any of those engines or any sterling, but I did purchase the Mizer plans, bearings and graphite from Jerry Howell. I also bought 12" of 6" O.D. acrylic from McMaster Carr. I planned to start after I get the New Holland running. Looks like it may be farther away than I planned.


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## cobra428 (Jun 23, 2009)

Hey Putputman,
It took me over a month of "playing" with my hit and miss to get it going. I'm feeling for ya buddy! I never messed with ignitor style ign. but here's a few things I noticed. If the engine is in the least bit flooded forget it... pop and spit (smoke from exhaust) compression drops,but no run. I need to clean the plug continuously because it would get wet, carboned up and fowled trying to start "wet". Take the plug out and unplug it hold the wire near but not touching the frame you should see a good spark. Turning the engine faster you should see a "continuous" spark just about. The best runs I had where on High Oct Gas no oil mix (timing 2~3 BTDC). No oil in your car gas! Just be sure to lube valve guides and other mechanics prior to running. 2 cycle oil doesn't belong in a 4 cycle eng. It will fowl the plugs.

Good Luck
Tony


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## bmuss51 (Jun 25, 2009)

i saw in one of your posts that it sounds to me that your ignitor is open and then closes as it is being tripped. but if i found out the point contact should closed all the time except when it is tripped. and the opening of the points is what causes the spark.
 i have not built the 1/2 hp yet, but on the 1 1/2 hp a way to check the spark would be to on do the access to either valve and look into the cyl to see that it sparks when the piston is at top dead center.
 if the engine gets to much fuel it will not fire either. so i had to make a second needle with a lot longer point to make it easier to adjust. because the print needle was way to touchy and it only had to be opened about 3 clicks on a very fine knurl. and sense i lengthened the point i can now open the needle all the way to a 1/4 turn and 2 clicks of the needle either way makes it run lean or floods the engine and that's with a knurl of about 150 notches on the dia. of the knob.


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## putputman (Jun 26, 2009)

Made a little progress over the last few days. I removed the intake valve so I could see into the cylinder. Turned off the shop lights and turned the engine over with the drill motor. I could see almost a constant blue flame even when I run the drill at 600 rpm. This says that the igniter is firing, but is it hot enough to ignite fuel on a continuous basis. The engine only fires intermittently when I try to run it. Is that ignition or fuel?

To check out the ignition problem I decided to mount a set of points and another cam and run it with a buzz coil like my other engines use. I made an aluminum mount that fits on top of the bearing block. . (I didn't have the cam gear for 4 cycle so I had a waste ignition on every stroke) Took a set of points off an Atkinson Cycle engine that I am building. Set it to fire on top dead center. Hooked up the buzz coil & battery. Turned it over and it took off. I made a very slight fuel mixer adjustment and that was all. The engine ran for over ½ hr and seemed to run smoother as time went on.







This kind of answered a lot of questions I had about this engine. 
  1) It had enough compression
  2) The fuel mixer wasn't that bad. I think a finer needle & seat might be an improvement.
  3) The intake and exhaust valve were seated good enough.
  4) The intake spring was the correct size & weight.
  5) The exhaust timing was fairly close. I might be able to improve on it.
  6) I must concentrate my efforts on the igniter from now on.

I still have questions about the igniter that must be answered. 
  1) Is the coil strong enough.
  2) Is a 6 V battery enough or should I go to 12 V.
  3) Are my points OK. I used 3/32 dia tungsten from a TIG welder for points. 
  4) Do I keep the points open until just before I'm ready to ignite or do I keep them closed all
    the time except when I am ready to ignite. I have heard comments both ways.


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## joe d (Jun 26, 2009)

Arv

Way to go Thm:

You've GOT to be happy with that... looks good, and sounds great.

Figuring out the ups and downs of your ignitor should be a little less frustrating when you at least know that that is where the problem is.

Cheers, Joe


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## georgeseal (Jun 26, 2009)

On a automotive coil, points are closed and current as flowing. When points break the low voltage field inside the coil collapses induceing a high voltage on the high side causing the spark

You could test your points by having them closed (no voltage applied)
and use ohm meter should be close to 0


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## Stan (Jun 26, 2009)

I would say that a blur flame (spark) should be hot enough to fire the fuel mixture. That leaves the question if it is firing at the right time. Is it possible to use a neon bulb or old style timing light to see if the actual spark occurs at TDC? You can also hold onto the hot igniter lead and turn the engine over slowly and get a very close idea of the firing point but you do get a substantial shock.

Your last post indicates that you are feeding the voltage from the buzz coil to the open igniter points. That is similar to the igniter engines that use a magneto that is generating a constant voltage to the igniter and the timing is determined by when the igniter is tripped mechanically.

I see nothing wrong with making at least one trial with a 12 volt battery to your coil if you are sure the spark occurs at TDC. At east you are down to one problem!!


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## Maryak (Jun 26, 2009)

Arv,

Congratulations, "He who dares wins." :bow: :bow: :bow:

Now all you have to do is ignite the igniter. :

Best Regards
Bob


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## zeeprogrammer (Jun 26, 2009)

Arv,

Very very enjoyable video. Loved the sound too. Got my body moving...oddly...but moving.

Very happy for your progress.


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## bmuss51 (Jun 27, 2009)

on my nh engine the points are closed except when it fires. and when the points open is when the spark happens. that's why they have a spring on the trip to cause them open with the snap and you only need about a 1/32" gap to cause the spark.
 i use a 12v battery and a "universal" magnetic ballast pt#200h200i which cost me $6.     the upc code is 768386133650 and it probably can be purchased at any electronic supply house.


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## Kermit (Jun 27, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> http://www.old-engine.com/magign.htm
> 
> 
> found some tutorial pages on the ignitor.
> ...




LOOK at the link.  It explains the coil and how it operates


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## putputman (Jun 27, 2009)

bmuss51, I sent you a PM. I've got some questions about your engine.

Kermit, thanks for the heads up on that site. I have looked at it and I think I am following all the rules. One thing I am trying to find out is the recommended voltage input for this coil. I have to contact the mfg. to find that out. I purchased it from the guy that sell the casting kits so I can only assume it is the right coil for this engine. 

One thing I found out today is that I didn't have a real good ground connection through the engine. I run a wire directly to the igniter and it improved the running somewhat. Still not where it should be.

I wish I had your electrical background -- even just a little of it would help. I can struggle through 110/220 house wiring but anything that involves a coil, filter, condenser, transistor, resistors, and all that other stuff, I am totally lost!!!!!!!


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## Kermit (Jun 28, 2009)

It could turn out to be something as simple as the battery being 12 volt or 6volt.

Find out from the maker to be sure. 6 volt was common for all those engines, but 12 volt is king today and parts for 12 volt are cheaper to make and therefore much more commonly used in the lower voltage setups. Not saying they should be but when stuff is sold - things happen 

Sorry for sounding so 'bossy' about the link.  I had to squeeze in my replies today between grandkids and the drive back to Houston. (so what's my excuse for the rest of the time  )


Keep after it brother. You'll get it all right as rain soon enough.


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## putputman (Jun 28, 2009)

> Sorry for sounding so 'bossy' about the link.


Not a problem Kermit. No offense taken. Hope you had a good weekend with the grandkids. As you get older, you just can't see enough of them.

I know what the coil & igniter is suppose to do, I just don't know why it isn't doing it. :wall: :wall: :redface2:


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## putputman (Jul 1, 2009)

Well boys & girls , it's RUNNING!!! woohoo1 woohoo1





 woohoo1
I finally got impatient waiting for confirmation on the recommended voltage for this coil and hooked it up to 12V and the engine took off. I didn't have to change timing, fuel mixer, or anything else to get it running from when I used the 6V buzz coil. It was a good feeling knowing that everything I had built and assembled in the past was on target. It was just my ignorance of electronics that stood in my way. I felt the coil to see if it was getting warm or hot and felt no change in temp. I don't know if this is a reasonable test or not, but with my knowledge of electronics etc. it is all I could do. The worst that can happen is that I will have to replace the coil. I think there has always been an imaginary wall between us mechanical people and those "spark chasers". ;D It finally caught up with me. :wall:

I would really like to thank all the people that encouraged and helped me on getting this engine running: Kermit, Stan, Maryak, Andre, Kuhnew, Zee, Rudy, 90LX, Chuck, Joe d, George, and especially bmuss51 who helped off line with many photos and good info. I hope I didn't forget anyone. That is the danger of trying to thank all the people for their special help.


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## Maryak (Jul 1, 2009)

PPM,

Congratulations :bow: :bow: :bow: That is one very fine looking and running engine.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Stan (Jul 2, 2009)

Arv: According to your description of how the coil is only energized momentarily, then the duty cycle is very low and overheating would not likely be a problem. The risk with doubling the input voltage is that the higher output voltage could cause insulation breakdown inside the coil. Your attitude reflects what i suggested earlier. Try it and see what happens. If it blows up you have to get a new coil. 

On cars that use a dropping resistor to the coil (12 volt start and 6 volt run) if you bypass the resistor, you burn out the spark plugs, not the coil. Since you were so marginal with six volts on the coil I don't expect you will have any problem.

Congratulations on your success.


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## Kermit (Jul 2, 2009)

putputman  said:
			
		

> I finally got impatient waiting for confirmation on the recommended voltage for this coil and hooked it up to 12V and the engine took off. I didn't have to change timing, fuel mixer, or anything else to get it running from when I used the 6V buzz coil.





 ;D   Impatience is a universal constant,
Kermit



P.S.: Nice running engine. Congrats.


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## putputman (Jul 2, 2009)

Wow, the only thing I can think of that tops seeing your engine run is being nominated for "engine of the month". Win, loose, or draw, it is a real honor.

I'm sure that most of you out there are like me, pretty much alone with your hobby. The only ones that you can share it with is your family and a few close friends. It is a forum like this that allows you to share the ups & downs, ins & outs of the hobby with the entire world. Many times it is the help that I receive from this forum that keeps the projects moving.

Thanks to all of HMEM for sharing.


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## RobWilson (Jul 2, 2009)

putputman  said:
			
		

> Wow, the only thing I can think of that tops seeing your engine run is being nominated for "engine of the month". Win, loose, or draw, it is a real honor.
> 
> I'm sure that most of you out there are like me, pretty much alone with your hobby. The only ones that you can share it with is your family and a few close friends. It is a forum like this that allows you to share the ups & downs, ins & outs of the hobby with the entire world. Many times it is the help that I receive from this forum that keeps the projects moving.
> 
> Thanks to all of HMEM for sharing.


Never a truer word said , great engine putputman :bow:


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## 90LX_Notch (Jul 2, 2009)

Congrats on getting it running and congrats on POM nomination.


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## kuhncw (Jul 2, 2009)

Glad to see you got the New Holland running. I run 12 volts on my ignitor engines with no problems. I also had poor luck with 6 volts. My coils are simple ballasts for fluorescent lights.

Regards,

Chuck


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## rudydubya (Jul 3, 2009)

That is one fine engine PPM. Glad to see it running so well. Congratulations. :bow:

Rudy


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## gbritnell (Jul 3, 2009)

That is one of the finest running New Holland engines I have ever seen. From the day that Breisch sold them I had heard how temperamental they were to get running but you have overcome all of those bugs. Great job!!
gbritnell


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 3, 2009)

Very nice. I have to admit, 'hit-n-miss' engines had never grabbed my interest but this one and the others I've seen on this forum are changing that. I like the sound too.


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## putputman (Jul 3, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments. I am really pleased with the engine myself. There are more moving parts on this engine than any I have built before.

I have seen videos of the N H 1-1/2 HP running but I have never seen a 1/2 HP running, so George, your comment is especially appreciated.

Chuck, you are the second guy that mentioned using ballast. Do I understand it right that this is used instead of a coil? If it is, it is certainly cheaper than the $45 I paid for this mine.


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## kuhncw (Jul 3, 2009)

Hello Arv,

The ballast is just an inductor, a coil of wire around an iron core.  There is no secondary winding. I find these ballasts at hardware stores or places like Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Usually they are $5 to $6 or so. Just two wires leads and no electronics inside. They may be called a magnetic ballast.

Here is a link with a photo:

http://www.goodmart.com/products/956789.htm

They vary in appearance depending on manufacturer.

I've found, for hit and miss engines, I really prefer an ignitor. 

Which coil are you using?

Regards,

Chuck


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## putputman (Jul 3, 2009)

Chuck, This is the coil I am using. I bought it from Kent Smith at K & J Machine, the same place I bought the casting set. I have it tucked up under the engine so it can't easily be seen.






Do you use the ballast with another coil or is that in place of the coil like I am using???


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## kuhncw (Jul 3, 2009)

Hello Arv,

I just use the ballast. There is no other coil. Looking at the photo of your coil, I'd say we are both using the same type of coil, it's just that you coil looks "old time" because of the way your coil is constructed. Both our coils have only two terminals, wire wound around a steel core, and no secondary winding.

Again, contgratulations on getting the New Holland running so well.

Regards,

Chuck


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