# Small metal shear



## phildlight (Mar 9, 2013)

Hi,  Newb to the forum here.

Can anyone suggest a small (maybe larger?) metal shear for cutting brass (in the .016 inch thck) and thin aluminum (maybe 22 gauge)?  Ideally with some sort of table to assist in squaring.  I've been looking at the little chinese 3 in 1's and the 8" brake/shear machines but I'm skeptical about accuracy and durability.  I've seen the throatless shears and that seems interesting but I haven't seen any method of squaring on those.  I don't know though, is there a way other than scribing and trying to stay on the line to get a square shear with a throatless shear?  I've never used on before and have no idea how to fixture one to get more precise cuts out of one.

I was considering getting the little 8" break/shear (chinese harbor freight etc.) and then stripping it down and trying to get it tightened up.  I've got mills (cnc and manual) and lathes and can custom build parts to upgrade/improve one.  I don't really need the brake function since most of what I want to do will be flat pieces.  I just need a method better than tin snips to get square cuts out of brass and aluminum.  I'm not really interested in designing/building one from scratch unless there are plans out there that produce a proven machine that is better than a modified/improved import version.

All of this is just what I've gleaned from web searches.  If I'm off base or missing something please tell me.  Any advice/info/pointers would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Phil


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## S3MIH3MI (Mar 9, 2013)

I have the 12" 3 in 1 and the shear is the best part.
The rollers are good too but the break is so so. It uses leafs like a box pan bender and on longer or wider pieces the bend is not uniformed along the whole length.


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## johnmcc69 (Mar 9, 2013)

Check out "Woodward Fab", they have a throatless rotary shear that cuts up to 1/8" that has an adjustable 
stop. Looks like maybe it could be used as a "guide" of sorts. They also have some other fab tools.
Looks like some nice machines.

John


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## Tin Falcon (Mar 9, 2013)

Phil: if you are close enough you may want to take a ride to grizzly .

I have one of these. thave not used it a lot but a sturdy 3 in one imho a good bang for the buck and space it takes up

T21320 12" Sheet Metal Machine $295 if you pick it up at the show room  + tax weighs about 114 lbs
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Sheet-Metal-Machine/T21320







they do have a stand alone shear for Ten bucks less:
T10051 12" Bench Shear
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Bench-Shear/T10051







they do carry the 8" shear break combo as well.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Mini-Shear-Brake/T23109
Tin


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## phildlight (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks guys!  It seems like for the price, the 3 in 1 is probably the way to go.  Shouldn't be stressed too much w/ softer thin sheet.  Basically getting the slip roller and brake for free compared to the cost of some stand alone shears.  I like the smaller size.  I hadn't noticed they had the 12" version.  I was looking at the 12" brake/shear from HF and their 30" 3in1.  The griz is the same price including shipping as the 30" HF version but I really have no use for one that size.  Realistically, 8" wide capacity is about the max that I'll need.


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## RonGinger (Mar 9, 2013)

I had one of the 36" 3 in 1 machines and got rid of it. The shear was useless- it would bow back away from the fixed blase with anything thicker than tin foil.  The brake was very near useless to make anything besides a 90 degree. I dont recall trying to use the roll.

I bought a Jet 24" box brake which as worked well for bending things like boxes for electronic parts. 

I got a 12" bench shear which has worked well enough.

I built a 12" roll to the George Thomas plan in a very old ME magazine.

I am convinced any multi-use or 3 in 1 machine does nothing well.


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## Mosey (Mar 9, 2013)

I have been thinking about this a lot, needing to cut brass sheet into square and angular crisp little pieces, and decided to mill the edges. It takes quite a bit of planning and making little jigs, but gives me nearly perfect pieces. Braking is the other side of the problem, so I will watch and hopefully learn from you.


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## phildlight (Mar 9, 2013)

RonGinger,  What you say seems to be inline with a lot of other forum posts and reviews I've read.  It makes sense.  Usually machines that are built to try to tackle multiple jobs don't do any of them well.  Especially at the low pricepoint.

Mosey, you're doing exactly what I'm doing.  Like you say though, it takes a bit of setup time to cut a simple rectangular/square piece but you get a perfect cut and clean edges.  I've been saving up little parts that need to be cut and I gang them together in one cnc job and cut all the parts out at once which helps offset the setup time.  It's just a bit crazy though.  Like killing a housefly with a bazooka!  For me, with brass and aluminum it's maybe not a huge deal, but you're also putting fairly unnecessary wear on your endmills for such a simple task.

I keep reading that the throatless shears are the way to go for shear specific tasks.  I keep bouncing back and forth on the idea of a 3 in 1 or a dedicated bench shear.  That 12" bench shear from grizzly or the woodward fab ones are probably a better bet for shearing only.  For me, the rollers are not a huge benefit and the brake is even less important.  Since the 3n1's probably don't do any of those 2 tasks well or at a high enough precision it's probably better to ignore them.

They're just so darn tempting because of the price.  Oh well.  Good topic for discussion though.  I'd still like to hear from others who either have both and can compare or have other suggestions for a solution to cutting fairly precise square cuts in thin sheet.

Phil

PS, regarding brakes.  I may in the future have a need for a small brake and I plan to build something similar to one of these when/if that time comes: http://www.micromark.com/mini-bending-brake,6702.html  They really don't look all that difficult to make and that's about the only size brake I would need.  I'm modeling smaller scale stuff so even a 12" brake is just a waste of money.


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## Tin Falcon (Mar 9, 2013)

The  8" and 12" mufti purpose machines are like any value priced chinese machine. they are a pre - assembled kit. They are only as good as the cleaning adjustments lubrication and in some cases upgrades given by the owner/operator.  
I do not recall hearing much good about the 30" machines they are just too long to be strong/stiff  enough to do the job. IIRC the display model at HF I saw was broken. 
And the advantage of a single use machine is you can adjust it to do the one thing right.  the break and shear on the 3 in 1 are interdependent to some extent so adjusting to do both well is harder. 
I will say my 12" machine is beefy for the size at 140 lbs. the 8" machines only weigh 40 lbs.  I know machine weight is not everything but it is a factor I consider. 
Tin


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## S3MIH3MI (Mar 10, 2013)

This is a piece of 20g sheet metal about 10" long.
very little effort. I have owned this 3 in 1 for over 3 years with no issues.
The cut is very clean with no bur. I know it's Chinese and it's a crap shoot
if you get a good one or not, but I'm happy with it. The bender could be a bit better
but if I took the time, I'm sure I could make it better.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~fileme/vids/2013-03-10.wmv


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## Jtrain (Mar 10, 2013)

This is an interesting thread topic.  I've been pondering on the 12 inch 3 in 1 machines.  Looking good enough for me and my little useage.  I would expect it to need alot of adjustment first out of the box


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## Wizard69 (Mar 10, 2013)

phildlight said:


> RonGinger,  What you say seems to be inline with a lot of other forum posts and reviews I've read.  It makes sense.  Usually machines that are built to try to tackle multiple jobs don't do any of them well.  Especially at the low pricepoint.


I don't think trying to tackle multiple jobs in one machine is an automatic failure.   However most of these 3 in 1 machines do seem to fall in that category.  

Your post is timely here because last week I was at my local HF store to see about spending the little bit I had left from my tax refund.   In this case I was looking at the Hossfeld (sp?) style benders and frankly couldn't believe that they would seriously try to sell such junk.  It wasn't just one bender that was crap but both  display models they had there.  The holes where so poorly aligned that you could see the pins sitting at an angle from across the room.  I looked over some of the other sheet metal machinery and was not all that impressed.    I left the store with a right angle grinder and money in my pocket.  

Now obviously some stuff HF sells isn't that bad, the problem is you really need to either inspect it first, trust the evaluations of others or gamble.  I'm tired of gambling so I won't spend big dollars at HF on machinery that doesn't have a good reputation or pay off.   


> Mosey, you're doing exactly what I'm doing.  Like you say though, it takes a bit of setup time to cut a simple rectangular/square piece but you get a perfect cut and clean edges.  I've been saving up little parts that need to be cut and I gang them together in one cnc job and cut all the parts out at once which helps offset the setup time.  It's just a bit crazy though.  Like killing a housefly with a bazooka!  For me, with brass and aluminum it's maybe not a huge deal, but you're also putting fairly unnecessary wear on your endmills for such a simple task.
> 
> I keep reading that the throatless shears are the way to go for shear specific tasks.


I'm not sure why you believe that.   It is certainly true that every machine has a task it excels at.    However a throat less shear isn't the type of machine that you expect nice square cuts from.   


> I keep bouncing back and forth on the idea of a 3 in 1 or a dedicated bench shear.  That 12" bench shear from grizzly or the woodward fab ones are probably a better bet for shearing only.


Have you considered Pexto?   


> For me, the rollers are not a huge benefit and the brake is even less important.  Since the 3n1's probably don't do any of those 2 tasks well or at a high enough precision it's probably better to ignore them.


It is all in the implementation!    Just because HF sells crap doesn't imply that everybody does.    


> They're just so darn tempting because of the price.  Oh well.


It is what you get for the price that counts.    If you could find one of these 3in1 machines that worked well then the price might actually be a bargain.  


> Good topic for discussion though.  I'd still like to hear from others who either have both and can compare or have other suggestions for a solution to cutting fairly precise square cuts in thin sheet.


If you are looking for precise; open throat machines are the wrong choice.  


> Phil
> 
> PS, regarding brakes.  I may in the future have a need for a small brake and I plan to build something similar to one of these when/if that time comes: http://www.micromark.com/mini-bending-brake,6702.html  They really don't look all that difficult to make and that's about the only size brake I would need.  I'm modeling smaller scale stuff so even a 12" brake is just a waste of money.



I honestly believe the DIY route for things like brakes and rollers is the way to go.    Especially when we are talking smaller sizes that can be built with home shop equipment.   A home built shear might be slightly more challenging.    As to specific solutions just remember that every machine has its forte.   I'm thinking seriously about building a Hossfeld type bender because that type of machine is a good low cost fit with my desire to work with some iron.  That is not to say it is perfect or is the best solution to my bending needs.  

So what I'm saying is basically this, don't be surprised if that bending solution needs to supplemented with something else down the road.


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## Wizard69 (Mar 10, 2013)

phildlight said:


> Phil
> 
> PS, regarding brakes.  I may in the future have a need for a small brake and I plan to build something similar to one of these when/if that time comes: http://www.micromark.com/mini-bending-brake,6702.html  They really don't look all that difficult to make and that's about the only size brake I would need.  I'm modeling smaller scale stuff so even a 12" brake is just a waste of money.



Upon taking a second look at that little brake I'd have to suggest going a bit bigger.   It may look alright to you now but I'd find it very limiting.  For one thing it isn't really a box break so folding up some structures would be problematic with that unit.  Maybe you haven't had the need to form sheetmetal with tight corners, into pans or boxes but it will likely pop up in even small scale stuff. 

Just a suggestion but before going to all the trouble of making your own machine scour the model engineering magazines, books and the like for past solutions.    More than a few have turned up over the years.


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## phildlight (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for the video S3MIH3MI!

Thanks for the replies Wizard!  I happened to go to HF the other day for their sidewalk/parking lot sale so I could look at the sheet metal stuff.  Wow is it junk.  That larger 30" 3 in 1 is an absolute joke.  I wouldn't pay $50 for it because I really don't see how it would actually work for anything.  Probably just result in frustration.

I'm starting to lean more towards building my tools now too.  I saw a nice home made bench shear w/ a guide/square the other day on a forum and it's exactly what I want.  I would post a link to it but apparently their database is broken this morning and the forum wont load.  Wizard, you're right on the brake and I had planned on using the micromark design as more of a starting point than completely copying it.  It is a bit small.  I'll look for some existing designs.

That's really why I thought I would start a thread.  I thought maybe something already existed in the smaller hobby size but I'm guessing not.  I'll start looking for plans and messing around in cad/3d to design something.  I'd like to add an indexer of sorts to the table/bed to help in advancing sheet into the shear.

I'll start looking for replacement blades to start and see what might be the best option.


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## Lakc (Mar 12, 2013)

Frankly, for cutting sheet that thin, I have been well served by a medium duty paper cutter my father purchased back in the 70's from an office supply store. Its not overly heavy duty, but it does a good job. I have cut soft .032 aluminum, and even circuit boards with it.


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## phildlight (Mar 12, 2013)

Lakc,  I was wondering about that myself.  I know I've used some of the old heavy duty paper shears before and thought they might work for the thin stuff I need to cut.  .016 brass and .020 aluminum is probably the top of the thickness range I would need to cut and it wouldn't be that often.  Most of the stuff is .005 to .010 brass.  I might try to find an old paper shear on craigslist etc. and try it out.  If it's cheap enough, what could it harm?


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## Lakc (Mar 12, 2013)

This one of mine will cut that easily.


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## Gordon (Mar 12, 2013)

I have an Enco shear which works well. $69.95 for 6" or $119.95 for 12" No table but easy to add one. Also free shipping.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMKANO=346&PMPAGE=6&PARTPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01

I have found that for the most part combination equipment does several jobs poorly.

Free shipping use Use Promo Code: MMRS for Free UPS Ground Shipping* on Orders of $99
or More. Hurry! Offer ends 3/31/13.


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## phildlight (Mar 12, 2013)

Gordon said:


> I have an Enco shear which works well. $69.95 for 6" or $119.95 for 12" No table but easy to add one. Also free shipping.
> 
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMKANO=346&PMPAGE=6&PARTPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01
> 
> ...



That's funny.  That's exactly what I ordered earlier today (12" version).  I came here to post an update that I bought one and then of course I see the free shipping promo.  Oh well.  That shear seems to get really good reviews and it looks like I could build a little table to go on the side of it for indexing.  I like the compound linkage design to give a lot more leverage.  Most of the bench shears I've been looking at have the blade attached directly to the handle.  Sounds like adjusting the blade on the enco model is pretty easy and works well.

I did do some research on building one and found that good blades cost as much as this shear.   That's what sealed the deal for me.  I figure the blades on that one will be good enough for the soft metals I need to cut.

Hopefully problem solved...


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## Wizard69 (Mar 12, 2013)

phildlight said:


> Thanks for the video S3MIH3MI!
> 
> Thanks for the replies Wizard!  I happened to go to HF the other day for their sidewalk/parking lot sale so I could look at the sheet metal stuff.  Wow is it junk.  That larger 30" 3 in 1 is an absolute joke.  I wouldn't pay $50 for it because I really don't see how it would actually work for anything.  Probably just result in frustration.


If you could pick one up cheap, like yard sale cheap, if might make a good donor machine to make a sheet metal roller.   Most likely though you will find suitable materials new cheaper.  

I wouldn't recommend HF for anything that costs more that $50 anyways.  Do realize that just because HF sells crap not everybody does.   A small shear might take a bit of time for looking for as you might get lucky at a sale or something.   


> I'm starting to lean more towards building my tools now too.  I saw a nice home made bench shear w/ a guide/square the other day on a forum and it's exactly what I want.  I would post a link to it but apparently their database is broken this morning and the forum wont load.


Doing a DIY solutions is one way, the other is to make a point to hit every auction and sale you can find where commercial metal working equipment can be found.  For some reason I imagine that a home built shear would be the hardest of the 3 to pull off.  


> Wizard, you're right on the brake and I had planned on using the micromark design as more of a starting point than completely copying it.  It is a bit small.  I'll look for some existing designs.


The concept is interesting but also fiddle if you ask me.   Having to crank the screws would be very tedious if you need to do a lot of bending.   Taking the idea a bit further with a cam or toggle based approach might be more useful.   


> That's really why I thought I would start a thread.  I thought maybe something already existed in the smaller hobby size but I'm guessing not.


It doesn't hurt to look a bit harder.   There are interesting ideas for benders floating around the net including one that uses electromagnets in place of the usual clamping mechanism.   If you DIY a machine scaling to fit your needs should be rather easy.  Some of the basic designs where new early in the last century, there is little ground breaking with respect to bending, shearing and rolling.  


> I'll start looking for plans and messing around in cad/3d to design something.  I'd like to add an indexer of sorts to the table/bed to help in advancing sheet into the shear.
> 
> I'll start looking for replacement blades to start and see what might be the best option.


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## Wizard69 (Mar 12, 2013)

phildlight said:


> Lakc,  I was wondering about that myself.  I know I've used some of the old heavy duty paper shears before and thought they might work for the thin stuff I need to cut.  .016 brass and .020 aluminum is probably the top of the thickness range I would need to cut and it wouldn't be that often.  Most of the stuff is .005 to .010 brass.  I might try to find an old paper shear on craigslist etc. and try it out.  If it's cheap enough, what could it harm?



Paper shear will certainly work, you can even cut sheet meet a with regular old desk shears in a pinch.   Most paper shears will also help you with keeping things square.   The big problem with paper shears is the safety aspect, especially if you are putting your back into it to cut metal.  I would tend to discourage people from doing so regularly simply because those old paper shears are known hazards.   Considering the thickness you are talking about a rotary paper shear might do the job, I have not tried that approach though.  

So to answer your question what harm could it do, you could end up with short fingers.


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## Lakc (Mar 13, 2013)

Wizard69 said:


> So to answer your question what harm could it do, you could end up with short fingers.



Thats certainly possible, as it is with almost every tool we use in this hobby. You have to have respect for your tools, and expect them to try and cut off appendages at every opportunity.


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## phildlight (Mar 13, 2013)

Lakc said:


> Thats certainly possible, as it is with almost every tool we use in this hobby. You have to have respect for your tools, and expect them to try and cut off appendages at every opportunity.



Yeah, gotta agree there.  I think some of my other tools could do a lot more damage than a guillotine!

Good point from Wizard though.  Hopefully the enco 12" shear does what I need and that'll be the end of it.


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## Alchymist (Mar 24, 2013)

I've had pretty good luck on thin brass and aluminum by scoring it with a sharp scribe or even an x-acto knife and just snapping it. Using a steel ruler quite straight edges can be done.


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## Wizard69 (Mar 24, 2013)

phildlight said:


> Yeah, gotta agree there.  I think some of my other tools could do a lot more damage than a guillotine!


It is the likely hood that the paper shear will do damage that is the problem!   Sheet metal and other shim stock like materials are very slippery relative to paper on such machines.  If you are careful nothing will happen.  


> Good point from Wizard though.  Hopefully the enco 12" shear does what I need and that'll be the end of it.


It should.   There are actually many ways to go about cutting shim stock like materials.   Such a shear though ought to make square cuts a snap.


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