# What is Craftsmanship to You?



## phlegmatic (Dec 16, 2009)

I love as all here I presume to look at the pics of models displayed here, and elswere on the net. But often when I discover who made it im a bit dissapointed, because often he´s really a professional playing with his work equipment! I have no intent of saying this sort of man is a bad craftsman or machine operator, but it can maybe make the normal ME (HSM) a bit intimidated when he tries to live up to this standard of work. 

My background is toolmaking and gunsmithing as a professional. With the types of tools I had acces too in those days, making engine models would be a breeze! We had all the abbrevations there from EDM to Cad/Cam...

I have decided on my own standards as a craftsman: No computer or electronically (via fluid or gas media) guided machines with two axis being able to work in unison. That is not sporting to me!

What is your standard?


----------



## John Rudd (Dec 16, 2009)

To me its the subtle difference of being able to hand/eye co-ordinate movement to produce a finished machined part compared with the ability to write and implement the necessary code to make a machine to do the same task....

I like to be able to say 'I made that' and without the aid of a computer.....


----------



## gbritnell (Dec 16, 2009)

Over the years this discussion has come up in conversation many, many times. There's always at least a couple of points of view and as with every other topic it's hard to convince one or the other that theirs is not correct. Here are several examples I've run across. I am also an artist and sometimes exhibit my art in shows. At the show they will have art and photography displayed and judged equally. I feel that photography is definitely art but the same amount of work doesn't go into it that a hand drawn or painted piece does. Next up, I also build plastic models. On the modeling forums the question has been posed, "is modeling art"? Personally I don't think it is. I think it's craftsmanship. Sometimes craftsmanship to the highest degree but not art. Remember were talking plastic models not scratch built items. Now on to the machining hobby. I for one feel that 'craftsmanship' is the term that's applied to the finished product, even radii on parts, lack of tool marks, attention to detail, innovation etc. Having worked in a shop with sophisticated CAD/CAM programs I can appreciate the learning curve that goes into using this technology. A lot of times people will see some of my models at a show and say "did you use CNC"? First of all I can't afford it but secondly it's just a way of removing metal. It requires knowledge of setups, fixturing, how to mill into a pocket with a small cutter so that it doesn't chatter and gouge the corners out and many other things. It's also not practical for many parts unless you're making multiples. If you can use the technology and have access to it by all means do it. Like I said it's just removing metal. Does it make the finished piece any more craftsman like, I don't feel that it does. This topic kind of relates to rant about the guy bragging about his equipment. The vast diversity and budgets of this machining hobby allows for many different processes of metal removal but to me, as I stated earlier, it's the finished piece that separates the men from the posers.
gbritnell


----------



## black85vette (Dec 16, 2009)

I think craftsmanship involves at least 4 issues:

1. The mind. It must have acquired the knowledge of how to do things and solve problems.
2. The hands. Must have acquired the skill of doing the tasks.
3. Artistry. Using the first two to not just replicate but to create.
4. Excellence. The high standard to which the first 3 are done.


----------



## Cedge (Dec 16, 2009)

George...
The best compliment I ever got on my work was when a couple of old time machinists said, "That can't be done manually.... that was done on CNC". 

As for Craftsmanship.... paraphrasing Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall when asked how he defined pornography.... "*I Know it when I see it*". 

Steve


----------



## gbritnell (Dec 16, 2009)

That's good Steve, I like it.
gbritnell


----------



## mklotz (Dec 16, 2009)

Alternatively, I believe it was Frank Zappa who defined pornography as, "anything that gives a judge an erection".


----------



## vlmarshall (Dec 16, 2009)

Ok, I get it, using CNC equipment is cheating, 'cause it's too advanced.

I'm sure that there were people at the end of the Bronze Age who thought iron weapons were unfair too.


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 16, 2009)

Steve's quote is what may bring out our differences regarding craftsmanship.

Some will feel that setting up a machine to cut at specific feeds, speeds, and spindle rotation, along with choosing the right tool and writing code is a kind of craftsmanship. I would say that is a skill, (a valuable skill), but that it does not display craftsmanship. 
It is just a way of removing metal, as George points out, but it removes something else, too; The tactile involvement of a human being. Without that, I believe there is no craftsmanship, although there may certainly be a job very well done. I would be tempted to say that automation negates craftsmanship, although it can be a means to express art, if you are willing to separate art from it's associated craft process. 

For my part, craftsmanship starts coming in where the capacity of the machine limits are met. You can see it in the work of certain individuals. Phil Duclos, Rudy Kouhoupt, W.R. Smith, along with George and Steve, to name just a couple of our own here. They are people who do not let the machine dictate their results, because they are craftsman. If you should look at some of the things that Phil, Rudy, and W.R. made, and notice the machines they are using, you can often come to the conclusion that what they made could not be done with what they had. They didn't do without simply because their mechanical tools were of limited capacity or accuracy. They pressed on using the two most valuable tools in their shop; The mind and hands, (along with skill acquired through practice). Their product was craftsmanship, which happened to take the form of the pieces they made.

All totally subjective, but my opinion.

Dean


----------



## Artie (Dec 16, 2009)

Taking this line of thinking one step further... is anything more than a hacksaw, hand drill and a fileset cheating?

Not in my view but, if we need to draw a line, where is that line in the sand? I have no idea.... the idea of a skillled tradesman wanting to continue to create at home is a worthy one. If I had CNC capabilities I would certainly use them... thats just another skillset.... 

Professionals working 8 til 5 doing this activity and then presenting it to us as a hobby is different.... not sure where I stand on that (or even if my opinion matters)...... I think its a matter of motivation ie; financially driven or passion driven....

As long as we have model engine bling to look at my needs are satisfied.....

(a satisfied) Artie


----------



## Artie (Dec 16, 2009)

oh... a post note.. Intimidation? Nah... I do what I do for me..... I do hope others enjoy the ride but at the end of the day my standards are met, it all works and Im happy.... ;D


----------



## chillybilly (Dec 16, 2009)

I even enjoy looking at the scrap parts ,and there is plenty of them !!!!!However you get there CNC or manual ,its all about making bits that fit together,that in itself is craftsmanship .

"Everyday is a school day "


----------



## Cedge (Dec 16, 2009)

Vernon
I'm certainly not anti-CNC, but the added separation from the tactile experience of manual machining simply has no appeal for me. I can make a computer sing and dance, but I'd much rather be at the controls of my lathe or mill than sitting nearby sipping a belly washer while my computer has all the fun. That's the hobby machinist side of me.... with one or two repeat parts to make..

If I've got a hundred duplicate parts to mill, drill and get to the shipping department, I'll take the CNC and hug that damned computer like a long lost love. 

CNC hobby guys can and do create beautiful stuff, but as someone mentioned earlier....so does a good camera. No beef with their talents, but I really like the old fashioned skills it takes to do it all manually. One day I might even be good enough to be considered a Bio-CNC, like George....LOL

Dean....
It feels a little awkward to be mentioned along side those honored names. I aspire to someday meet their levels of accomplishment, but they've paid one hell of a lot more dues than me.

Steve


----------



## Powder keg (Dec 16, 2009)

I used to think that stuff made on a CNC was crap.

Then Work bought a couple mills and a lathe and I had to learn how to be a machinist over. It is not as easy as it looks! it still takes skill. Just another skill set I had to learn. CNC's let me build things that would take way too long to build by hand. I can build things the way I see them in my head and not have to compromise. Here are a couple of flywheel patterns. They only took 2 0r 3 hours a peace to mill out. Does that make them crap? The profile of the finished spoke is round and they are tapered. It would be very difficult to make these on a manual.







This part would probably be better on a manual lathe. A guy I went to school made a couple of these. They were still pretty difficult. I started sweating just watching him)










I don't know the exact words here, but. Some items are cheapened just the way they are made. Maybe not the way they are made, but the way they look/function when they are done. Take a bolt for instance. If you want a 1/4"-20 bolt 1" long, You could buy bolts made by 100 different places. Some would be top of the line and others would be crap. But, They would still all be a 1/4-20 bolt. Now take the top two or three manufacturers. If one place made theirs on a screw machine, one place made theirs on a fancy CNC lathe, and the last place had a old machinist hid in the back room making their bolts one at a time with a file. Which would be better? Who's to say? My opinion on this has changed over the last few years. The final result is what we are after. As long as the quality is there. I'd say It was made by a craftsman.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Dec 16, 2009)

> I think craftsmanship involves at least 4 issues:
> 
> 1. The mind. It must have acquired the knowledge of how to do things and solve problems.
> 2. The hands. Must have acquired the skill of doing the tasks.
> ...



I think that boils thing down quite well.
the short video that was posted on the cad/ cam thread of the female torso being machined was amazing. 
the same type of sculpture could be crafted from clay then a mold made and wax copies made and then bronze art cast . Or a "craftsman" could carve it out of stone or wood. 
I will not get long here I think the bottom line is to make the best use of what you have whether it is a hacksaw and file or a 5 axis cnc. There is a tremendous learning curve with either one. The skill set may be a bit different but there is still skill involved .
Tin 


I think there is a bit of confusion when it comes to craftsmanship. People are used to things made to factory standards. ie interchangeable parts.


----------



## shred (Dec 16, 2009)

Unless you make all your own screws and smelt ore to make barstock, a computer's "made" some of the parts. The craftsmanship is that part that's more than the sum of the parts. CNC just raises the bar for those that use it.


----------



## Twmaster (Dec 16, 2009)

I think this was said in another thread.. "Man makes the machine. Machines do not make the man."

To my thinking craftsmanship is about the finished item. Whether you are making the fender for a Rolls Royce or the valve for an Elmer #43. If you -care- about what you are doing and do the very best of your ability to create whatever it is you are working on (either for hobby or pay) you are a craftsman.

Some folks may look at a statue chiseled out of a solid blob of rock with nothing more than a chisel and hammer or look at the result of a CNC machine spitting out a similar statue in bronze...

Both are the brain children of a person. Both can be worthy objects made by a craftsman.


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 16, 2009)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> The final result is what we are after. As long as the quality is there. I'd say It was made by a craftsman.



Keg, if that's all we were after, we could just go and buy an engine.

Steve, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. Just calling 'em how I see 'em. It's only worth the price of my opinion.

Craftsmanship is a personal pursuit, rather than a manufacturing process. Though it is often measured along with the yardstick of quality, the two don't really fit on the same scale. 
I had a feeling that the seeming perfection or quality of a CNC manufactured part would be laid against or interpreted into the term "craftsmanship" in some way, or that it would be taken as a slight against manufactured parts if they weren't included as some part of it.  

Craftsmanship usually means a quality item, for it's purpose, but quality itself doesn't necessarily mean craftsmanship. 

Dean


----------



## Tin Falcon (Dec 16, 2009)

In days of yore a simple metal spoon was made buy a craftsman, a blacksmith. Then guys like Oberlin smith came along and invented a machine a drop press and dies made buy skilled craftsman to make many spoons buy unskilled labor. So you do not need a skilled craftsman to make the spoon but you do need one to make the press and dies. 
Tin


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Dec 16, 2009)

Well gee...I'd like to add my penny's worth...

This thread is less about trying to convince anyone what craftmanship is than it is about trying to describe what each person thinks it is.

We all have different backgrounds, different skills sets, different goals, and different likes. This forum is unlike local clubs. Local clubs tend to attract people who, not only have similar interests, but are like-minded to a great extent. This forum differs in its diversity even though we take great pains not to let our diversity get in the way (politics, religion...all the great relationship breakers are avoided).

So it's not surprising there are so many different views...and there should be. And thank goodness there is.

Making a quality tool can be craftmanship. Using a tool (like a CNC machine) to its greatest potential can be craftmanship. Skills can be developed to the point of craftmanship.

For me, craftmanship exists when people other than the craftsperson recognize it as such...whatever it is.

It's never simple.

For me...when I see an excellent piece of work...I don't just think about the end result. I think about the care, attention, skill, quality, knowledge, love, fun, you name it, that went into it. That, for me, is craftmanship. It's not even the specific tool...it's that, whatever tool it is...that craftsperson knows how to get the most out of it and often in the most imaginative ways.


----------



## Cedge (Dec 16, 2009)

Dean...
Trust me it was not insulting... AT ALL..... LOL. I was just a bit taken aback that anyone would toss my name anywhere close to that heady bunch. I'm very much of the mind that they are among the heros of this particular hobby. I still consider myself to be a relative newcomer and very much the novice.... a novice with more balls than brains.... but a novice, none the less...LOL

I'm always pleased when my work is considered as showing my "craftsmanship" and making something truly unique has its own thrill. The problem with the pursuit of craftsmanship is that I'm not sure I'll ever really know when I get there, in my own mind. It seems to be a constant chase to do better, next time. Maybe I'm just confusing the goal of perfection with craftsmanship, but it does keep me going. 

Hint... 
Never adopt the mental mantra "*One perfect part at a time*" unless you want to become a bit obsessive with your own personal performance.

Steve


----------



## Powder keg (Dec 16, 2009)

So you don't build things for results? I'm confused. What does buying an engine have anything to do about what craftsmanship is to me? If I'm using the tools I have on hand to create something beautiful, in my mind. Pushing myself to figure out how to make an oddball part. Be it on a CNC or manual or with a file. I think that would make me a craftsman? Maybe not? I love doing it and that's what counts for me.

Later, Wesley


----------



## GWRdriver (Dec 16, 2009)

With respect to CNC, and accepting that CNC has a place and is one of several ways to do it, and that each of us will choose our own way . . . here is how I look at it. Let's say you have two guys building the same project, and those two guys show up at a meet with their latest component, also identical and of approximately the same quality of workmanship. One guy has done his CNC, and other one has done his all-manual (ie, hacksaw, plain lathe, files, etc), and both are asking me to lookie here at my work. All else being equal the guy who has done the work manually gets my admiration. The CNC guy, well . . . not so much, because although I acknowledge his work took skills, they aren't skills I admire as much as I do manual skills and I get to choose what I admire, for my own reasons.

Right about here is where someone usually jumps on me and throws in a red herring about CNC and manufacturing and of course CNC is essential in manufacturing . . . but the conversation is about amatuer shop craft, not manufacturing. Different kettle of fish entirely.

Otherwise I also kind of like black85vette's list of four issues for craftsmanship.


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 16, 2009)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> So you don't build things for results? I'm confused. What does buying an engine have anything to do about what craftsmanship is to me?
> 
> Later, Wesley




Wes, I didn't mean for it to be taken as a confrontational statement, but rather, an observation.  I'm sorry if it sounds otherwise. 
You're right, what craftsmanship is to you, is what you decide it is. 

I do happen to think that how the final result is produced dictates the difference between quality, and craftsmanship, and that I can't be the judge of whether I'm a craftsman or not.

Dean


----------



## Powder keg (Dec 16, 2009)

No worries Deanofid :bow:


----------



## mu38&Bg# (Dec 17, 2009)

black85vette  said:
			
		

> I think craftsmanship involves at least 4 issues:
> 
> 1. The mind. It must have acquired the knowledge of how to do things and solve problems.
> 2. The hands. Must have acquired the skill of doing the tasks.
> ...



I have to agree. The toughest part for me is artistry. I can come up with functional mechanical design, but making something look just jawdropping is not my thing. My designs are rather agricultural( a mid 90's BMW is much more my style than anything since) but that suits me fine. Gail's V-twin project just blows me away. I can see art and beauty, but can't create it and won't copy it. A photograph is the only art I can create.

CNC is just another tool. I love it. There is plenty of mental challenge involved. It makes some tasks easier. It can also make scrap very quickly. It always boggle my mind how some things were made 50-100 years ago by hand without it.


----------



## phlegmatic (Dec 17, 2009)

Lots of good input here! I really got alot food for thought now!! 

I dont think that its the result we´re after; its the road there that counts! Kinda like like cycling though Patagonia Vs. Driving a Tank with air support. If we look at what HSM/ME ppl produce, its not general machinery, they are display items, used as ornaments (E.g. art). Producing art with automation is not interesting to me... :-\

I´ve had many guns, the ones that showed what we call imperfections from the use of hand tools have allways been the ones most dear to me! It just a personal sentiment! 8)


----------

