# Edgar T Westbury's 15cc Petrol 4 cylinder engine - it could be a long post!



## Metal Mickey

Today I started on the building of a 15cc, 4cylinder, petrol engine from a design by Edgar T Westbury. I won't say the design is old but the construction article was published in the British magazine, Model Engineer. In fact it was over 62 years ago!

Having said that, it is a well known design, supported by comprehensive set of castings (available from Hemingway's in the UK http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_Seal___Edgar_T_Westbury.html

Since I have been a little unwell the total amount of work done today was to laminate the article pages, check castings over to see the tolerances (which are huge!). I also got to use one of my new Christmas presents, a granite surface plate. However I wouldn't call it a real start unless I turned some metal (that's not a true statement in my mind -preparation pays). Also I have been in correspondence with Steve Huck (camshaft fame) so thought that getting the camshaft made would get one large hurdle out of the way now.

So I turned down a steel bar to 0.500" for 5". Yup, that's as far as I got. I didn't trust myself to play with any castings but I have more than one steel bar. Anyway a couple of photo's are always usefull.........

Quite a large tolerance for the head and base cuts......







The start of the camshaft.........






However I have a couple of questions to ask of you...........

1) The granite surface plate seems to be scratching, however lightly......is this normal?
2) Would you fly cut the cylinder block on the milling machine or turn it on a face plate on a lathe?

Anyway....its a start.......


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## Maryak

MM,

Way to go Mickey, perhaps we can do a duet in WIP ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## stevehuckss396

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> So I turned down a steel bar to 0.500" for 5". Yup, that's as far as I got.
> The start of the camshaft.........



Just a little heads up before you cut anymore.

1. Make sure you are squared away on the fixture. I had to modify the Shores fixture to make sure it cleared my tooling. That way i could reach all the lobes with my right handed tool.

2. Make sure the tail end has some extra length on it so you can drill a hole in it for the pointer. Then you can part off the extra length after your done.


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## Kermit

I don't know what it is exactly but there is a product and a need to clean the granite surfaces. 

I've cleaned one several times but can't tell you what to use, I'll have to read the MSDS on our granite cleaning product. 

Kermit


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## ksouers

Mike,
I don't have a granite surface plate, exactly.
What I do have is a granite floor tile the seems to be pretty flat. There is very little distortion in reflections.
I don't know if it's the right thing to do but I'll put a coat of paste floor wax on the tile and buff it out real well.

I also _very lightly_ lapped the bottom of my surface gage. It's a cheap Chinese knock-off and was full of burrs that had to be removed.

The next thing is make sure the plate and gage are totally and completely clean of any chips or dirt. Even dust can cause scratches.

Hopefully someone will jump in and correct or confirm this before anyone else picks up my bad habits.


Cheers,
Kevin


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## speakerme

RE: Granite Plate Cleaning

Windex works fine, there is no absorption of the cleaning fluid in the plate and it gets off the fine grit and dust prevalent in a machine shop area. Clean the plate prior to any use of the height Gage or the base will drag those fine particles around and leave scratches.

Try to avoid laying spare tools and bits on the plate because it is handy....

Best Wishes

Chuck M


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## deverett

speakerme  said:
			
		

> RE: Granite Plate Cleaning
> 
> Try to avoid laying spare tools and bits on the plate because it is handy....



And make a wooden cover, lined with baize to keep it clean once you have finished using it.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## joeby

A recommendation from another site was to make the cover pyramid shaped, this will eliminate another flat surface to pile stuff on!

 A friend told me that I need to come up with folding workbenches that were light-switch-activated. That way when I left the shop at night and turned off the lights, the benches would automatically fold up and dump everything on the floor...thus clean workbenches the next morning!

Kevin


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## joeby

If I may make a suggestion on your planning stage, I would get a flat surface on the block casting that will be repeatable (skim cut if necessary) and lay out any/all hole locations before making any chips from it. Actually, three surfaces to use for references that can wait till the end to be finished.

 I had some experience with rough castings before I got into this hobby and thought I knew where I was going; but one engine I have is a result of not doing this. Almost everything is as it should be, but a couple of bosses cast on the side of the engine I neglected to lay out. The holes through these bosses are located from the crank, as they are supposed to be; but are a good bit off center in the boss. If I had done the layout work, I would have seen this and could have moved things around a bit to get a better looking job from it.

 After rereading your original question, I like to fly-cut the block surfaces. It makes it easier on me because I'm not dealing with the interrupted cut and the changes in surface speed when facing a large surface. I also think it's an easier setup job on a mill, and easier to see the progress of the cut.

Kevin


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## scoop

MM
 Have been looking at this engine as a project and would ask if I might pick your brain a little.
 1. Have you taken the "full material route",or "the castings only".
 2.The parts photo on the hemingway site shows what to me looks like a camshaft blank strapped into a fixture which does not look too dissimilar to the one described recently in the pee wee engine thread,if this is the case how much info is supplied for the cam manufacture?
  looking forward to this build, hope it goes well.
ps At my last engineering firm all the granite surface tables were cleaned with "fairy liquid" washing up detergent mixed with water,quite a thin mix if I remember,probably about 10 parts water to 1 of detergent.Not very high tech but worked perfectly.

 best regards Steve C.


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## NickG

Kevin,

Your points about flycutting rather than facing make good sense, I wouldn't have thought of those.

Nick


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## Metal Mickey

Maryak  said:
			
		

> MM,
> 
> Way to go Mickey, perhaps we can do a duet in WIP ??? ???
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



I am going to show my ignorance now and ask what WIP is.....but I will duet with you any time sir!


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## ksouers

WIP = Work In Progress


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## Metal Mickey

steamdave  said:
			
		

> And make a wooden cover, lined with baize to keep it clean once you have finished using it.
> 
> Dave
> The Emerald Isle


Hello Dave,

Many thanks, I am fortunate that it came in a ready made box although even with my dislike of wood I will be making a better one as the supplied one comes above the top of the surface plate so it has to be removed. I have some baize so will be taking that tip of yours on board, thanks.

Been to Ireland a few times, both North and South. Love Dublin and the South West coast in particular, though my traveling days are over I still have fond memories of the hospitality the Irish give. Lovely place.





			
				ksouers  said:
			
		

> WIP = Work In Progress



Doh!


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## Metal Mickey

scoop  said:
			
		

> MM
> Have been looking at this engine as a project and would ask if I might pick your brain a little.
> 1. Have you taken the "full material route",or "the castings only".
> 2.The parts photo on the Hemingway site shows what to me looks like a camshaft blank strapped into a fixture which does not look too dissimilar to the one described recently in the pee wee engine thread,if this is the case how much info is supplied for the cam manufacture?
> looking forward to this build, hope it goes well.
> ps At my last engineering firm all the granite surface tables were cleaned with "fairy liquid" washing up detergent mixed with water,quite a thin mix if I remember,probably about 10 parts water to 1 of detergent.Not very high tech but worked perfectly.
> 
> best regards Steve C.



Hello Steve, sorry for the delay......

I bought the castings only and from a member of this forum, although he no longer posts here...Bogstandard. If I was buying from Hemingway's I would have gone castings only as I have quite a bit of stock material. I suppose it depends on what material you have already really. I don't know the value for money of buying it all from them or buying separate bits. One advantage would be postage (or shipping for our US cousins) may be less than getting material from many sources.......

Regarding the camshaft question, I am in fact going to be tackling this aspect of the build first. There is an article covering this engines build but it is 62 years ago. It is interesting to read some of the comments about materials because of course this build was only 2 years after World War II and supplies of everything being in short supply. None of this though affects the quality of the design. There is also a good pictorial source of a build by a group of model engineers throughout the World for the Internet Craftsmanship Museumhttp://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/sealeng.htm during 2007 so its very current.

I am being helped by Steve who posts here as stevehuckss396. Steve has made a post on this thread as well. He is about to be published in a UK model engineering magazine but you can download a copy of Steve's excellent article from my website mikes-models.com. You can use this direct link if you like http://www.mikes-models.com/camarticle.html and Steve is both friendly and helpful if you decide to have a go. I will be covering the camshaft build on this thread as soon as I am well enough to get into the workshop again. You can email me for further information anytime using this forums email system.

Finally thank you for your advice re granite cleaning. Much appreciated.


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## T70MkIII

I'm very much looking forward to watching this build thread, MM, as I want to build a petrol engine myself in the not too distant...

I hope you get well soon.


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## Metal Mickey

joeby  said:
			
		

> If I may make a suggestion on your planning stage, I would get a flat surface on the block casting that will be repeatable (skim cut if necessary) and lay out any/all hole locations before making any chips from it. Actually, three surfaces to use for references that can wait till the end to be finished.....
> 
> .......After rereading your original question, I like to fly-cut the block surfaces. It makes it easier on me because I'm not dealing with the interrupted cut and the changes in surface speed when facing a large surface. I also think it's an easier setup job on a mill, and easier to see the progress of the cut.
> 
> Kevin



Hello Kevin, sorry for the delay in replying....Many thanks for the advice. I think your suggestions are excellent and may well go your route. thanks.


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## Metal Mickey

T70MkIII  said:
			
		

> I'm very much looking forward to watching this build thread, MM, as I want to build a petrol engine myself in the not too distant...
> 
> I hope you get well soon.



Many thanks Joeby.

I choose this engine for my first multi cylinder engine as it seems the design has stood the test of time, it is supported by castings and there is information on the net in addition to Edgar T Westbury's article. Also it will be used to power a Fairey Huntsman classic wooden boat being built by my brother (its his first major build as well) so it hopefully will have a purpose (even more pressure to make sure it works and works well!)

Just need to get out to the workshop! ??? Still it gives me chance to catch up on the computer work.......


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## Metal Mickey

I managed an hour yesterday so decided to attack the main cylinder block. The camshaft has been put on hold thanks to a very kind offer from Steve Huck to produce a cutting chart for me. The chart will be available to any other builder of the Seal in the future as Steve wants the information to be as open as possible. Thanks Steve. 

Anyway back to the cylinder block. I decided to mill the top and bottom using a fly cutter, rather than face it on the lathe. It really is interesting to read how model engineers went about things just after the war finished 60 odd years ago. All the comments made are still valid its just the machinery and metals available to us now are significantly more variable. 

It must have been very hard to even find metal in those difficult times. We really are fortunate. Imagine what Edgar T Westbury would have made of CNC!

I decided for the clean up to tackle the base first and held the casting away from the milling table by using 1,2,3, blocks.... Once the base was cut the casting was held securely to the milling table and the top surface fly cut as well. None of the milling so far is to measurement. I wanted to check if the two surfaces cut were indeed parallel to each other and using the digital height gauge and new granite surface plate, was pleased to see there was no recordable difference. As the height gauge goes to 0.0000 decimal places (although the last one only register 0 or.5) I was happy enough. 

A couple of images should help.......


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## Maryak

Way to go Mike  

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Thanks Bob.

Today I only managed an hour or so, and decided I would clean up the two ends of the casting by mounting it on an angle plate (see photo). I made a couple of aluminium washers to protect the top of the block (although I have another 50 thou or so to take off -easy to make a dig or two). Using parallels to give space The top was soon cut to dimensions. the casting was then reversed and the same actions taken. 

Now come a request for help or guidance. When checking the casting for overall length against the plan it was more than 1/4" too long still. You can see the difference with the unmachined cylinder head lain on the supposedly finishe block (only in length).

Now the question is, do I machine off one end to get the block to length and loose the shape of the casting end? (If I tooks some off each end I would loose the overall shape on both!) Or do I remove as much as I can whilst still retaining the shape, and then measure the difference between actual block and the plan, then making the extra onto the camshaft and crankshaft etc.

The second option is my favoured but am I letting myself in for more problems. I also have the difficulty of the block being bigger than some of its attacnments in width as well as length. i.e. the sump and the cylinder head (only in length).

I thought it better to raise the issue here and sleep on it before taking off metal that would be difficult sticking back on with blue tack!

Here are a couple of images.......







and the difference in castings......






and finally................


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## Maryak

Mike,

I assume the 3 bumps in the centre of the head casting and the bump at each end are for head bolts ???

If this is so, maybe it's an idea to determine how these line up with the block and set a central datum on both castings that maintain this relativity and the position of the cylinders, also from these central datums.

Hope this helps. ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Hello Bob, I was using the cylinder head to show up the amount of 'extra' casting I have with the cylinder block really.

*Update today.*

I needed to bore two 1 1/8th holes at either end of the main cylinder block casting on the Seal 15cc 4 cylinder engine. So it would be a simple job of bolting the block to the angle plate on the mill wouldnt it? Well the first thing I checked for was the length of the longest boring bar, which of course was too short. Ok I would make one, a little more time but not a big problem. Just in case I thought I would check the amount of travel on the Z axis (downward travel) of my mill and yes, you guessed, not enough!

After a cup of tea and a ponder I decided I would have to use the method Edgar T Westbury himself used 62 years ago and bore the holes between centres on the lathe cross slide. So the tool post would have to come off. Something I had yet to do so it was with a little apprehension that I started to look to see how to do it. In the end it was quite simple. With the tool post removed the cylinder block was then put between the two centres using the blanks to position the casting (see photo below).

This allowed me to measure the distance between the base of the block and the top of the cross slide. The packing required was then sourced and some machining will be required to get it so the casting can be bolted down securely. Thats where I will be picking up the job next time.


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## Metal Mickey

Today I managed to get back into the workshop and having received the camshaft fixture plans and the cutting chart from Steve Huck (thanks Steve) I decided to leave the casting I have been working on and return to making the camshaft.

The first job is to make the fixture and after locating the nearest sized steel, it was a case of squaring up the base and two upper blocks. It never ceases to surprise me how much time is spent in setting up compared to actually making swarf! I now I have to concentrate more than most and this must add some time, but it is still catches me out.

So the sum total of my work today is to get the base to size and the two upper blocks cut roughly to size. More work tomorrow will be required before the fixture is completed. I have time on my side however, as the material I was going to use, then harden, will not now be used. Instead I will be trying Steves recommendation of using silver steel (drill rod in the USA I believe) instead without hardening. Time will tell but Steve has built, and run successfully, several cams in his engines this way.

So I will need to buy some material for the camshaft. Between its arrival and starting to cut the cam lobes, I will go back to the main cylinder block and carry on with boring the crankshaft aperaures.







Also I received some great service today from a supplier in the UK. Arc Eurotrade stock the bearinsg I need for the engine so I ordered them yesterday afternoon (Friday) and they arrived this morning! Now thats impressive!


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## steamer

Nice build mike!

Keep it going! I was reading about your lathe challenge.....Hang in there!

Dave


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## Maryak

Mike,

Good to see you back on the engine.

Where is the full and glorious technicolor video of the beautifully refurbished Myford  ??? ???

Just Joking ;D ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Edgar T Westburys Seal 15cc 4 cylinder petrol engine  update 3rd March 2009

Looking at the plans as supplied I cannot get my head around the dimensions given regarding making the camshaft blank. Feeling a little under the weather I thought that the best way forward would be to make up a machining aide memoir and try and make sense of the drawing. Eventually I thought I was there and would check my dimensions against a broken camshaft given to me by the seller of the casting's set. 

I intend to make two camshafts initially. The first from stainless steel and used to see if I can get away without hardening the shaft as recommended by one or two HMEM forum members. The second would be made from steel which I would subject to the powder hardening process. I fully intend to make other camshafts for this engine later on when trying to improve performance. I hope to learn a lot more about small/miniature cams and their performance over the coming years. Don't ask me why but the subject does rock my boat as they say. 

Anyway I chucked a length of ½ diameter stainless steel which measures 0.499 and since I am working to a tolerance of +/- 0.001 I will not take a surface cut. Because of the tolerance limit I have set myself I thought I would take time to check that the Turner lathe I have has the tailstock in line with the chuck. You may ask why I haven't done this before and the simple answer is lack of experience. I also believed (wrongly) that the accuracy would be as good as it got when leaving the factory so leave well alone, in case I mucked it up. Its only the rebuilding of the Myford lathe that has given me the confidence and perhaps techniques, to check something I should have done as soon as the lathe was received.

I have always suspected something could be out of line from some long cuts done earlier. When using 2 DTIs to check alignment I couldn't believe it was over 4 degrees out over about 7 inches! The remedy was simplicity itself, with the tailstock moved to the correct position by using the adjusters, before being locked off. I decided to run the lathe up and move the saddle up and down a couple of times and recheck, finding everything now running true. 

I kicked myself for not doing this earlier. If I am fortunate enough to ever buy a new milling machine I will carry out checks on everything before even switching it on! Fear of the unknown has a lot to answer for!

With the confidence that the set up of the bar was running true in the 4 jaw chuck and in line with the revolving centre in the tailstock, I set too turning down one end to the 0.250 diameter required. So I allowed enough over to clear the centre with the turning tool, then using the DRO, moved to what I thought would be the correct position to cut the gap between cams. All was going fine if slowly, until it came to cut the second inset, leaving the cam blank alone. Checking before I made any cut something did not seem right. I checked the measurement and compared them the broken camshaft and whilst the width of the cam was correct, the gap between them was not.

No matter how hard I tried, I kept tying myself up in knots. I got so confused that I gave up and decided to call it a day. It was only when laying down this afternoon that, by using graph paper to scale, I worked out what the dimensions should be.

Blonde moment over I have made a new aide sheet, so when I fell well enough to have another go, I should at least know where I have to cut!

 I don't say I will get it right, but I now know what needs doing, the I thought the same this morning, so don't get too excited! 

_To be contd._ :-\


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## Maryak

Mike,

Why not make a test from free machining steel and the for real from drill rod which can be hardened without messing about with powder. ??? ???

It's easy to say and I hope it's helpful ???

Best Regards
Bob

Edit - In ETW's time they all seemed to be obsessed with hardening cylinders pistons cranks etc. - Like they were going to run for 100,000 hrs. For model hours I'm not convinced it's necessary but others may be better informed than me.


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## stevehuckss396

Gee Mickey, I'm sorry you had to go thru all that. If you had emailed me, I still have the drawing i made of the seal camshaft. I could have dimentioned it any way you wanted and sent you the PDF.

Hope all goes well.


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## Metal Mickey

Thanks Bob, your not the first to say about the need to harden. I just fancied seeing how it worked since I bought the powder 12 months ago and have never used it!

Steve, that's very kind re the PDF. Its more of a problem I had in the head rather than the plans.......today added to the 'learning' experience.......

I thought yesterdays brain clogging problems were over. However, whilst I managed to sort out the dimensions for the camshaft by use of graph paper, when it came to machining I was still unconvinced it was correct.

I thought I would help myself by marking, in permanent marker pen, the general location of the cams, so I could see if I was going wrong somewhere. In the event these marks caused me even more difficulty! I did a dry run as it were and ran through the sequence written on my notebook. Whilst it finished where it should, the gap between cam blanks seemed too large. So I got the defective camshaft (it broke in the middle) sent by a previous owner of the castings, and when comparing the marked out bar with the camshaft the spacing was fine, but the gaps seemed to large [see photo].






In the end I was so confused I just gave up and thought I would cut the cams as per my dimensions. You may have guessed that after cutting the first two cams everything was as it should be and the cutting of the remaining blanks went without a hitch. I do not know why I got so tied up with the layout (I suspect its my medication!!) but it was not only time slow, but also confidence sapping. I just didnt believe my own workings and it didnt even look right on the dry run but right it was. Some optical illusion!

After cutting the camshaft blank I did compare it with the broken camshaft and there is a little variation on the damaged camshaft which may have also disrupted my approach to the work.

My next session will entail making another cam blank but in steel that I will try and harden. I may also need it if I make a mess in applying Steve Hucks cam turning technique. Now I have done the first blank I am sure the next one (and future camshafts) will be done much quicker. My aide-memoir worked even if I didnt believe it and I will write it up properly, laminate it and put in the Seal box of bits for the future. I dont want to got through the last couple of sessions again. No point in learning a lesson if you dont remember it.

My next task was to stick the 360° paper template onto the cam turning fixture and then I called it a day. One surprise was the variation in dimensions on the broken camshaft.....and looking at it it had been in use....mind you it did break.........Hmmm.....


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## Maryak

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> One surprise was the variation in dimensions on the broken camshaft.....and looking at it it had been in use....mind you it did break.........Hmmm.....



Maybe too brittle from the heat treatment. ??? ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer

Interestingly enough, Jerry Keiffer does not harden his camshafts. He makes them from 4340 and leaves them "soft". If you've worked 4340, you'll know it is not real friendly.

Dave


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## chuck foster

looking good mike............i had a chance to buy one of these engines half done and i turned it down thinking i would never finish it.......after reading about your build so far i now wish i had bought the engine...........oh well i can have fun reading about your build.

thanks for taking us along for the build.

chuck


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## Metal Mickey

Been a little unwell but back in harness now....



			
				aermotor8  said:
			
		

> looking good mike............i had a chance to buy one of these engines half done and i turned it down thinking i would never finish it.......after reading about your build so far i now wish i had bought the engine...........oh well i can have fun reading about your build.
> 
> thanks for taking us along for the build.
> 
> chuck



You never know when the next set of castinsg comes along....I bought these on an off chance although the engine was marked down for a future build when I had a bit more experience.....but when is that? So now must be the time? Hope you get another chance as it is a nice little engine. Hard to believe its 62 year old design!


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## Metal Mickey

The single 4 cylinder Westbury Seal engine is no longer a projet to fit a classic boat. No, instead I have purchased another set of castings and it will now be a twin engine with contra rotation props! Mad or what!

At last I felt well enough today to get back out into the workshop for the first time for a while. Nothing feels better than a successful or even semi successful session. It even gets better in that I was working on the Seal engine for the first time since the start of the Myford refurbishment.

It took quite a while to sort out the turning fixture for the camshaft with no parts fouling each other. I had to reduce the diameter of the front disc that registers the degree of rotation of the camshaft. Then there was a problem of getting the cutting tool to have sufficient travel without fouling anything. This all took time but eventually everything went around without anything going bang!

The cam blank I am using now was not made to match the fixture (my mistake) so I am going to complete the machining as a practice and confirmation piece. Confirmation that the process I am using will produce the correct camshaft. 

To help me avoid mistakes (since I am cutting 6 cams at a time) I decided to mark which cam was which, on the offset turning fixture. This, together with the cutting charts produced for me by Steve Hucks meant I had a chance of cutting the right cams in the right order. As an added safety measure I also marked all of the cams with a permanent marker. If those cams which had to be left remained covered with permanent marker ink, I wouldnt have a problem!






For those of you who have read Steves cam article in both Model Engineering in the UK and Model Engine Builder in the USA you will realise that the first cut is the deepest, as the song goes. Initially I need to remove 0.078 from all the Cam blanks, but in order. After that its a case of revolving the camshaft by 5° and making the cuts on the chart. I had printed out a set of charts already and filled the x boxes with a highlight colour then laminating them. However I decided to print off a new set and use a highlight pen to colour in the section that was being cut, so I could keep count. 

I need this amount of organisation since there are 47 rotations with cuts for the exhaust and 49 rotations and cuts for the inlet cams. So as you can see there is a lot of work to be done. Now multiply that by the 3 cams I will be making (this practice one then two engines) and you will see this is not going to be quick!

More importantly though is the fact that Im back!


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## Maryak

Mike,

Good to see you are back on the job and the time spent getting organised for your cams I am sure will pay huge dividends doing the cuts. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## stevehuckss396

Go Mickey Go!!


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## steamer

Looking Good Mickey!

I Wish I was that organized! :

Dave


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## Metal Mickey

Today I managed to get the practice cam turned enough to satisfy myself that the system will work so a start has been made on the first of the two real camshafts.

I was hoping to make faster progress but I got distracted by the arrival of another set of castings. When inspecting them I was very surprised to see quite a bit of difference between them. My first set always seemed a little out, especially the cylinder block and head






Seeing the second set has confirmed that the size difference is not the same with the second set. Also the sump casting is a lot bigger compared to the rest of the first cylinder block and hen comparing the two sump castings (photo) you can see just how much difference there is.






I don't know if there is another supplier of castings for the Seal other than Hemingways, [link]but if they come from the same source there must be another set of patterns! At least I now know the differences between the both sets and what work I have to do to put them right.


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## Jasonb

Looks like they came from different paterns, on the sump the corner fillets are diagonal on the left and radiused on the right. Also the webs on the mounting lugs are different, one curved one straight.

I'm not sure how long Hemingway have been doing them but they may have been part of the range they took over from Woking Precision Models.

Jason


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## Maryak

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> Looks like they came from different paterns, on the sump the corner fillets are diagonal on the left and radiused on the right. Also the webs on the mounting lugs are different, one curved one straight.



Mike,

I agree with Jason. No way were they from the same pattern. That's a lot of faffing about for you. My commiserations.

Best Regards
Bob.


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## Kermit

If you look even CLOSER ;D 8) 

Sorry; QC humour!


Really though look at that photo again. Those two blocks are Mirror Imaged of each other. 





My Condolences on the Bad News,
Kermit


Set them in a launch as Port and Starboard motors with props that rotate opposite of each other??? Hey just trying to find one of them there silver lining thingies.


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## Cheshire Steve

Mirror images ? Are you sure its not just that one is turned around ?

I have just registered, as I have just bought a part built Seal and spotted the forum while hunting for info. I was curious about the different castings. The original castings were by Craftsmanship Models in the late 40's and early 50s - my grandfather was one of the partners in the business. They made the Seal as designed by Westbury, and I think it was David Braid who made an upsized version, the Seal Major, of 30cc. 

My grandfather died early in my life, and sadly all the records of those days seem to have vanished, but I have been thinking of collecting and or building the range of model kits made by Craftsmanship models (I started making models only about 18 months ago). Many of the kits are still in production by Hemingway, but if anyone has any original Craftmanship Models drawings I would be very interested. I was lucky enough to buy a Craftsman Twin complete with original 1948 drawings the other day.

Right now I am waiting for my new purchase to arrive. I might find I need to start from scratch ! Thats the trouble with buying a half built model unseen - you never know if it was a master craftsman who died half way through, or someone else who screwed it up so badly they decided to get rid. We shall see.

Steve


----------



## Metal Mickey

I agree Jason, thanks and thanks to everyone else for their comments. I have a couple of options though, I can try for replacement castings or have fun sorting them out. The only replacement I would go for though is a sump but I will leave that until I see how my fix turns out. Plenty of time for that though........On with the build says I!

Well today was a good day. The first of many I hope. I wanted to complete at least one blank camshaft in steel. I expect I could have made 1 ½ blanks if I hadn't made a mistake with the taper end of the camshaft.

I had completed all the fussy bits and then took too much off the 1/8th tail. So that was parted off and will be kept as a comparator piece (scrap really!). I was a little miffed that I managed to get all the parts within 0.001 only to make a silly mistake at the end (literally).

At least the structure I put so much time into for machining seemed to work. Indeed the time I took to make the nearly completed camshaft blank [see photo] was much reduced for the second attempt. This particular camshaft is made from BMS (bright metal steel) and will be for my hardening experiment. I have another two blanks to make over the next couple of days but these will be turned from stainless steel. Not sure if it's the best material but it is surely harder wearing than BMS.







The only task remaining to complete today's example is to drill the small hole in the opposite end from the taper. This is to allow a small steel pointer to be used when turning the camshaft in the fixture designed by Steve Huck (thanks again Steve!). I will drill the hole when I have all three blanks machined to the same point to make use of the set up time involved.

I decided that the best way to approach the task of producing the cam blank was to machine the awkward part first. The first job was to centre the bar in the 4 jaw chuck with the minimum showing. Then the bar was turned down first to 0.250 diameter. Using the digital readouts the start and end of the taper was lightly scored on to the bar, along with the measurement of the length for the thread.

It was then another turning job to bring the diameter down to suit the 2BA thread which was then threaded by use of the die held in the tailstock holder. Once this was carried out the thread was then reduced to size. The next procedure was to turn the 10° taper just in time noticing that the tap setting should be only 5°. I must admit to a little apprehension when sizing the job up especially blending the taper to the threads. In the end though there wasn't any difficulty and the thought was far worse than the deed (as I have found with many engineering tasks done for the first time).

Once the tapered end was completed the 4 jaws were released and the bar drawn out, centered again, and then parted off with sufficient length to make a complete camshaft blank.

The bar was reversed in the 4 jaw with only enough bar showing to allow the dti to be used to centre the bar. After facing off the end was centre drilled so a live centre could be used in the production of the camshaft. This was the first time that I thought about how I was going to turn the cams in the next stage. In particular because the taper end was very small and certainly too small to centre drill and use against the live centre, but likewise I couldn't grip the nice taper end in the 4 jaw chuck. So I decided to produce a brass bush that would protect the shaft with the taper [photo] leaving the larger diameter faced end to be held with the live centre.






Once the bush was drilled and reamed, it was parted off and the bush and shaft placed in the 4 Jaw chuck, using the dti again to get it running true. I decided (with fingers crossed) that I better check the shaft was true across its length and I was really pleased to find no discernable difference between ends. Now the test would be if my new chart with the dimensions on (chart is too posh a term for the scrap of paper) would work.

Starting with the end nearest the chuck, the digital readouts proved there worth as I set the position of the saddle into the correct position. With a new insert in the parting off tool I took the cut to depth. Set the y axis reading to zero and moved the saddle to the end position and cutting to 0.005 of the finished size. This left a middle piece to be removed, again to within the 0.005 of finished size. I now carefully moved the saddle between the two cam edges using the parting tool to turn down the last 5 thou to finish across the gap.






Then the saddle was moved towards the tailstock and into position for the next cut to within 0.005 before cutting the end position, removing the centre part last. This was repeated until all 8 cam blanks were cut. The tool was changed and the end nearest the tailstock then turned to finished size using the half method. Since learning about the half method I can nearly always get to the 1 thousandths of an inch allowance I give myself. Well unless I go stupid as I did earlier on in the day, but that wasn't a failure of the methodology, rather the stupidity of the operator!!






And that was enough for me today. At least I made progress. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to produce another blank (I would like to get both done really but that depends more on health issues than time )


----------



## ozzie46

The tool was changed and the end nearest the tailstock then turned to finished size using the half method. Since learning about the half method I can nearly always get to the 1 thousandths of an inch allowance I give myself.




 Uh sorry, but what is the "half method" ?

 Great info by the way, I am learning quite bit :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


  Ron


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## Metal Mickey

Hello Ron, I picked that tip up from this forum in answer to a post (can't remember who answered) but basically when you get to say 0.020 from the finished size you half whats left to cut, so your next cut is 10 thou. After that cut half whats left, say 5 thou, measure again then half whats left etc. It is easier to do than explain but it really works, I use it all the time and its improved my accuracy no end.
 ;D


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## mklotz

The problem I see with that approach is that you are making a different depth-of-cut (DOC) each time. This means the stresses and consequent deflection are different for each cut. Also, your last cut may be very fine - ok with HSS but not so good with carbide.

I try to plan things out so my last two cuts are both the same DOC. That way, I can measure after the next-to-last cut, determine how much I'm really taking off with that DOC and, hopefully make only a minute adjustment to the last cut to arrive at the target size.

Using your example, I would, at 0.020 oversize, take a 0.005 DOC to reduce the oversize to 0.010, then take a 0.0025 cut to reduce the oversize to a nominal 0.005. If measurement showed the true oversize to be 0.005, then another 0.0025 cut would get me on size. If measurement showed 0.004, then 0.002 DOC for the final cut or 0.003 if the measurement showed 0.006.

If your technique works for you, by all means continue to use it. I'm only offering this method for folks who may want to try alternate ways of getting on size.


----------



## ozzie46

Thanks Metal Mickey, I have been doing something similar and didn't realize it.

 Marv,  
 No wonder my carbide cutters are crap now! Learn something everytime I get on here.

keep it coming.   
 Ron


----------



## Metal Mickey

Well other than loosing an hour because of British Summer time, and watching Jensen Button win the Oz GP (well done to both Jensen and Lewis Hamilton for a great drive in a poor car - amazing from McLaren!)at 0600 hours, I managed to get out into the workshop for a second successive day! Brilliant.......

Onto the build though........ I managed to get both stainless steel camhaft taper and threaded ends done, and also cut out the blank cams completing one piece. So tomorrow I hope to complete the cutting of the cam blanks out of the second. Completing this phase before profile cutting the cams. The second photo below shows where I got to before stopping for the day .....ignore the left hand side of the shafts since they have yet to be cut to final size. Also there will be a cross drilled hole in the left hand side to accommodate Steve Huck's idea of a marker when I profile the cams. 

When the camshafts are finished to size the left hand side is much reduced (and loosing the cross drilled hole).











I think that when I have managed to make the cams that will be a big psychological problem over. The next 'big' job will be the crankshafts but I may have a go at bringing the castings to size first before making the crankshafts. After that its all down hill! Only 16 valves, 8 cylinder liners, 8 conrods, 8 pistons................oh *&^%% hell what have I done!!!!! :big: Great though ain't it! Ho ho.

p.s. how do you post the smaller images that you click over to see a bigger picture? It looks nicer those that do it, so help please......


----------



## Metal Mickey

mklotz  said:
			
		

> The problem I see with that approach is that you are making a different depth-of-cut (DOC) each time. This means the stresses and consequent deflection are different for each cut. Also, your last cut may be very fine - ok with HSS but not so good with carbide.
> 
> I try to plan things out so my last two cuts are both the same DOC. That way, I can measure after the next-to-last cut, determine how much I'm really taking off with that DOC and, hopefully make only a minute adjustment to the last cut to arrive at the target size.
> 
> Using your example, I would, at 0.020 oversize, take a 0.005 DOC to reduce the oversize to 0.010, then take a 0.0025 cut to reduce the oversize to a nominal 0.005. If measurement showed the true oversize to be 0.005, then another 0.0025 cut would get me on size. If measurement showed 0.004, then 0.002 DOC for the final cut or 0.003 if the measurement showed 0.006.
> 
> If your technique works for you, by all means continue to use it. I'm only offering this method for folks who may want to try alternate ways of getting on size.



Thats interesting your comment with carbide because I cant get on with them I just bought another one recently but I get a better finish with HSS. Like you say if it works for you...and it does for me but nice to know there are other methods. I cannot claim ownership of this cutting methodology it came from the forum.


----------



## mklotz

I'm no authority on cutter technology (hopefully someone who is will chime in) but my experience is that carbide doesn't like to take fine cuts (say <0.005") whereas HSS will happily shave off the proverbial frog hair if properly sharpened. It may be that, due to the metallurgy, carbide simply can't be sharpened to a razor edge - as I said, I don't know about the cause but the result is very apparent. Nevertheless, don't take my word. Do some experiments on your own and decide for yourself.

Carbide may be the weapon of choice in the industrial arena but I find it much less useful in the hobby modelmaking venue. HSS is cheaper, easier to form to the job and produces better finishes in the common modelmaking materials. Carbide is great for getting through mill scale and hard spots but is always my second choice for fine finish work.


----------



## Metal Mickey

Thanks mklotz,

I can live with that. Learn't something else today....great. :bow:


----------



## Metal Mickey

Not much work over the last two days so no photo's but I have turned up 6 bushes for the fixture. Looking at the ones that came out after the practice cam cutting I thought it best to pus a new pair of bushes to each camshaft. That way I will not be tempted to re use a damaged bush.

I have also managed to drill the three holes for the pointer and today set up the lathe to turn the first crank proper. This is the steel one I want to have a go at hardening. So if anything goes seriously wrong it wont be a total disaster. 

I was hoping last weekend that by the end of this week all three cams would be finished and the castings machined. Never going to happen now and that's with me making allowances for the 'unexpected'. I will be lucky to get one done this week and it will be at least mid week next week before I start on other allegedly simpler tasks.....


----------



## Metal Mickey

I finished the first camshaft over the weekend and found a problem. To cut a very long story short with the help of Steve Huck (of HMEM fame) we found out where I went wrong but the good news is I actually (by mistake) produced a camshaft for the second of the two engines which will run contra to the first.

So a public thank you Steve for the many, many emails and getting the final solution sorted. If anyone wants to build the Seal camshaft I certainly recommend Steve's methodology for producing multiple cams at one time. Just don't do as I did and revolve the cam blank the wrong way! Steve made it clear in his article what to do....I read it several times, but still it solved a problem!! :big:

Thanks Steve :bow: :bow:


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## Maryak

MM,

The camshaft was obviously not a mistake - the learning experience just goes to show that there are Caspers in the system. ;D ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## stevehuckss396

I'm just glad the part was useable. I made a similar mistake with the Peewee cam but being a "V" instead of an inline engine, my mistake was only useable as a display part. Cant counter rotate a "V" engine.


Oh hey Mickey! Where's the pictures?


----------



## Metal Mickey

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> I'm just glad the part was useable. I made a similar mistake with the Peewee cam but being a "V" instead of an inline engine, my mistake was only useable as a display part. Cant counter rotate a "V" engine.
> 
> 
> Oh hey Mickey! Where's the pictures?



Steve,

Here are a couple of photo's as requested......

Bob, can you see Casper without any walls in your bungalow?

The Camshaft has yet to be finished with a small file and wet 'n'' dry paper.





The wrong, but now right, camshaft alongside the next one to make. You will see that I have marked out the scale I used wrongly the first time (but now rightly for the other engine!).






Today I managed to get about a 1/4 of the way through cutting the camshaft, but stopped because concentration was going......Decided that the rest if he time would be used setting up one block to bore out the 4 cylinders and 8 valve holes. 

The new sheet for cutting the right profiles. I highlight the one I am working with.


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## RobWilson

Great looking Cam MM :bow: :bow:


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## Metal Mickey

Many thanks for you kind remarks Rob. Just shows that the camera can lie!!!!

Today I managed to finish turning the second camshaft and a photo below shows it as I left it about 1/2 hour ago. The end of my session. I have yet to complete the cleaning up and the camshaft is only held in the chuck to allow it to be filed and sanded. It is not unsupported for turning, just a very expensive vice!

The second camshaft took a lot less time than the first but I did annoyingly catch one of the lobes with a nick. I blame SWMBO who came in at a very inopportune time! I managed to keep my muttering under my breath until she left. Then I said a loud tut tut. Fortunately most of the mark was removed with further cutting but part of it is still there, and I know its still there!

Hopefully tomorrow will see an end to cam turning for a little while although I still have one more to make. At least I now have a pair of camshafts that should allow me to tackle the main castings, namely the cylinder blocks. for a change Anyway here is the photo of the latest camshaft half way through tidying up.


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## cfellows

Top notch work!

Chuck


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## Shopguy

You make beautiful camshafts. One can aspire to be able to do such good work. Keep it up! :bow:
Regards.
Ernie J


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## cobra428

Shopguy,
Really nice job on the camshaft! I bought the Whittle Aero V8 from Hemingway about a month ago (next project). I've been going to school on this thread. I don't no why I picked that engine for my first multi cyl. I guess I didn't realize exactly how small it was. The camshaft rough stock is about 5/16 OD x 3L. Keep the cam info coming I need more school
Tony


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## Maryak

MM,

Fantastic Cams. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## GailInNM

MM
The cam shaft looks great. :bow: :bow:

Tony(Cobra428)
Be aware that the Whitlle cam shaft drawings were WRONG.
I don't know if the published drawings were ever corrected.
There is a Yahoo group for this engine and there is info on this both in threads and the files section.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WhittleV8/

Gail in NM,USA


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
I found that site and look it over occasionally. I have a little time yet to start that project. I also found a site where a guy drew all the parts in CAD to check out the mistakes (don't know if he'll share yet). I didn't look into this project to deep before I jumped in. Worst case I've been doing CAD for 25 years so I can make 3d model too. I do that in work I'd hate to go home and do it somemore!! :'(
Tony


----------



## stevehuckss396

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> Hopefully tomorrow will see an end to cam turning for a little while although I still have one more to make. At least I now have a pair of camshafts that should allow me to tackle the main castings, namely the cylinder blocks.



If you can stand it, You might think about making the third cam while you are still in the groove. Everything is setup and the process is in your head. Your chances for a quick, smooth, mistake free piece are about as high as it can get right now.


----------



## Metal Mickey

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> If you can stand it, You might think about making the third cam while you are still in the groove. Everything is setup and the process is in your head. Your chances for a quick, smooth, mistake free piece are about as high as it can get right now.



I am going to make the third over this Easter with a bit of luck and your right Steve, 'in the groove' is a good point. The cylinder casting work today is a small diversion (but a nice one) before going back into the fray as it were........

Thanks for your support Chuck, Earnie, Tony, Bob,Gail and special mention to Steve again. He has been a lot of help, like so many others on this site. 

From all the praise the photo's must hide the faults! Good camera.....good camera....... :big:


----------



## Metal Mickey

Today I spent quite a bit of time on working out the coordinates for drilling then reaming the holes in the cylinder block for the 8 valves and 4 cylinder liners. It's critical that measurement should take place from a machined surface and I choose the right hand side face when looking at the photo of the cylinder block on the milling table. I had previously set the casting parallel to the X axis by using the two plugs centre drilled previously.

I normally use my electronic edge finder that lights to show contact, and therefore the edge (after allowance for ½ the diameter of the end) of the part being measured. However the overhang on the edge finder would not allow measurement and I do no possess any slip gauges or the like so I made use of the 'wiggler' set I used before buying the electronic edge finder. It was quite nice to revisit an old friend as it were and the edge was fed into the digital readout, after allowance for the ½ diameter.







Because the cylinder block is a substantial casting and the critical nature of making sure the valves, cylinders, camshaft etc. line up, I made several movements to see that the end coordinates looked correct. It was during this exercise that I found the coordinates wouldn't work in relation to the 4 holes already there for the pistons.






When checking the dimensions against the other recently bought set of castings, I found yet again that my casting was significantly larger. So I decided to center the mill over the nearest cylinder hole to the datum face and confirmed the extra distance. 

So after recording the measured difference in case it is needed later, I reset the DRO to zero and carried out the checks for the coordinates again. This time everything worked out fine and I decided to center drill the 8 valve stem holes. Then it was the turn of a 15/64 drill before reaming with a ¼ reamer.

The remainder of the session was spent adjusting the belts of the milling machine to reduce speed for boring and a start made on the first cylinder bore. However at the beginning of the next session I will make a plug of the correct size to use as a set standard for all four bores. Whilst each cylinder liner can be 'adjusted' to suit I would like to get them as near as possible to the correct size so I can produce the 8 cylinder liners as a batch. After all I should seek to increase my engineering skills, and accuracy is a measure of progress is it not.






Ignore the surface finish, there is several thou to come off yet, honest!

Overall a good session with the many checks proving of worth, even if there was not a great deal of swarf made!

p.s. can anybody tell me how to put small pictures in that can be clicked on?


----------



## Cheshire Steve

Hi Guys,

Well I now have a Seal too, on the production line. Mine came with most of the block machining done, and the crank done, but in many respects still a kit of castings, and no camshaft, pistons, valves, valve cover, but I seem to have the major castings. The machining looks good as far as it goes. It came with a single Westbury drawing of the main items (no electrics/carb on this drawing), plus I have acquired some of the appropriate ME magazines with the 'words and music' (i.e. how to machine it).

Clearly your camshaft machining details here are of great value - I will sure need them !

So maybe I can help in terms of the odd sizes of your castings. For example I can take dimensions of my castings, the Westbury drawings, and the drawings in the 1947 ME magazines - which are also dimensioned. Let me know if there is any way I can help - as what you have put on this forum has certainly helped me understand how to go about sorting the camshaft. I really appreciate it. I will be following in your footsteps - but probably quite a distance behind !

Steve


----------



## Metal Mickey

Cheshire Steve  said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> 
> Well I now have a Seal too, on the production line. Mine came with most of the block machining done, and the crank done, but in many respects still a kit of castings, and no camshaft, pistons, valves, valve cover, but I seem to have the major castings. The machining looks good as far as it goes. It came with a single Westbury drawing of the main items (no electrics/carb on this drawing), plus I have acquired some of the appropriate ME magazines with the 'words and music' (i.e. how to machine it).
> 
> Clearly your camshaft machining details here are of great value - I will sure need them !
> 
> So maybe I can help in terms of the odd sizes of your castings. For example I can take dimensions of my castings, the Westbury drawings, and the drawings in the 1947 ME magazines - which are also dimensioned. Let me know if there is any way I can help - as what you have put on this forum has certainly helped me understand how to go about sorting the camshaft. I really appreciate it. I will be following in your footsteps - but probably quite a distance behind !
> 
> Steve



Hello Steve, please feel free to email me through this forum if you like or via my website www.mikes-models.com and we can chew the fat as it were. There are several problems with the plans and one major one relates to the camshaft with firung order and diagrams wrong! Thats not including the famous 2 9/8" dimension!

I may be able to help you out with the remaining bits to your article as I have a complete master set. Also I will check if I have a spare second sheet plan, but I am a little less confident on that one. I could always photocopy mine but it will be in several A4 sheets........

If you do decide to make the camshaft I can let you have a copy of the cutting chart and information given to me by Steve Huck. He has an article on camshafts in Model Engineering and MEB and is a very active and helpful member of this forum.

Any here to help if I can. I would be interested in your dimensions for the main cylinder block casting, cylinder head and sump. It would be interesting to see if there are three patterns out there!


----------



## Metal Mickey

I had a great Easter holiday with both my daughter Vicky and son Adam, with their respective partners Justin and Jemma, down for Adam and Jemma s engagement party. Whilst it is very nice to see them it does take me three or four days to recover after they have left, so workshop time has been nil until today.

I started by trying to work out where I had gotten to with boring the second Seal cylinder block casting. Previous experience had led me to leave a note on the milling machine the last session, saying it was all set up for the next cut. However the reading on the digital readout did not match my setting when double checking everything. I do not know where I went wrong but the y axis setting was incorrect. Looking through my scribbled note book I saw the reading I was on for the Y axis, but no workings on how I got there.

Whilst it was only a few thousandths out, it meant twice the error before getting to a round bore again. I could either go with the mistake for all 4 cylinders or make the first cylinder larger than it should be, but in exactly the right place. Since the error was contained inside the recess needed for the cast iron lining, I decided to alter the Y axis reading to what it should be and accept that the liner would have to be slightly oversize on its outside diameter, to accommodate the error. At least it would be in the right orientation.

The rest of the morning was taken up with completing the 4 bores for the cylinder linings, including the top recess (see photo below) followed by drilling out the top of the eight valve bores, reaming to finished size. The penultimate task involved using a 3/8 diameter slot drill to make the recess required by the valve guides. Leaving me with the final task of the day, that of milling away the side of the casting alongside the valves. I wanted to get the casting squared at the same setting as the bores for both valves and pistons, although the final finish will be carried out when the casting is held on an angle plate at 90 degrees to its present position. 






It will need to be faced properly on the angle plate, after having the inlet and exhaust ports machined, along with various stud holes. However by taking a cleaning cut now, I would have a good face to make sure the casting was set up as true as possible. That was enough for me for the first session back and it is progress at least.


----------



## arnoldb

This is really a magnificent example of engineering & machining ! :bow: :bow:


----------



## Metal Mickey

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> This is really a magnificent example of engineering & machining ! :bow: :bow:



No no, I did this........


----------



## Metal Mickey

Todays session - the end of the beginning but not the beginning of the end!

Making the last camshaft proved the adage that practice make perfect. Not that I am in any way saying that the camshafts are perfect, far from it! But the last camshaft (I hope) took the least amount of time and for a change very few problems. Each time I nearly made a mistake I managed to stop myself from continuing, which is not an insignificant result believe me!

I needed to mark the cams to be cut with permenant marker towards the end.....just in case.......(thats experience!)






I now have a camshaft to harden as an experiment, and a completed camshaft for each Seal engine. Their production was not without incident and a little heartache at times, but I must go on record and thank Steve Huck for all his considerable help with cutting charts and giving me confidence when I had doubts, so thank you Steve.

The issue of errata on plans is something I have mentioned before. If you consider the fit for purpose test as in the UK then the Seal plans I have would not pass. If the plans were new then an error or two may be expected, however this design by Edgar T Westbury is over 60 years old. Is it too much to expect some obvious errors to be removed from the plans SOLD to the public? Let alone some major issues over the camshaft design. I know I lost some sleep over what was right and what was wrong. One thing I hope to come out of the Seal build is a comprehensive list of issues relating to the plans and they will be posted on my main website as well as my Blog for future builders. Additionally a copy of errata will be sent to the publishers of the plans, with a hope they amend their plans. We shall see.

The camshafts are not complete as yet, since as they have some finishing left but the machining is completed. A bi-product of completing this stage of the build is the much diminished fear factor of producing camshafts, since the 3 completed camshafts and the 50% practice camshaft (on a blank I corrupted early on) has given me some experience.

So its now onwards and upwards, with the next major items being the two crankshafts.ohhhhhh..noooo........


----------



## stevehuckss396

Good for you mickey! You have completed , in my opinion, one of the hardest parts of building the engines. Get past the crankshafts and you are home free. . . . . except for all the other stuff.

Sounds like you are glad you finished the cams at this point.


----------



## Maryak

Mike,

Bravo Zulu :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Metal Mickey

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Good for you mickey! You have completed , in my opinion, one of the hardest parts of building the engines. Get past the crankshafts and you are home free. . . . . except for all the other stuff.
> 
> Sounds like you are glad you finished the cams at this point.



Couldn't have done it without you Steve. I actually enjoyed making the last one strange as it may sound. yours is a good system Steve and I recommend it to anyone. Thanks. I may well tackle the crankshafts next, but via a saw
table to hold carbide tipped saw blades. Working on the drawings now. I know you use Alibre and must say I am a convert, even if its still a case of much to learn. Its the price I like!

Hello Bob, I am really glad to see you may be on the mend, I wish you well. Must have a look and see if you have got all your equipment in that building you have convinced the wife is your new home. Good one that Bob, good one!


----------



## Metal Mickey

Well I'm back....At last I have been able to continue work on the pair of Seal engines. Today I managed to drill, then tap the oil filler holes on both cylinder blocks of the Seal engines. The set up time for any machining task is normally much longer that the metal removal and today's task was a fine example of the little extra effort in making another engine.
The first job was to set the adjustable angle vice up on the milling machine. The plans call for the oil dipstick filler hole to be at an angle of 20 deg to the engine blocks head. The way I set this angle was to use the digital angle meter I have. A much valued tool and a recommended addition to any workshop. It was first zeroed on the milling table then with the casting standing on a pair of parallels, the meter placed on its top and the vice adjusted until the correct reading was seen.
I decided that I would reduce the speed of the drill and use three different sized drills before starting the tap. This method ensured that the threads would be cut in line with the drilling. However I find it easier to move the casting to the bench and finish the thread, BUT only after it has been started in the same position as the drilling.
Here are a few pictures that will make the text clearer....


----------



## joe d

Mike

Looking good. I'm glad to see you back at it, we've missed you around here!

Cheers, Joe


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## Maryak

Welcome back Mike

Best Regards
Bob


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## zeeprogrammer

welcome back Mike!!! I hope all is well.
Looking forward to seeing more on this thread!


----------



## Metal Mickey

Many thanks for the welcome. More to follow on Wednesday I hope......


----------



## CrewCab

Well, I've just spent quite a while catching up here, nice work :bow: ................ and welcome back MM ;D

CC


----------



## Metal Mickey

Thanks CC. Laid up at the moment but hopefully will resume end of the week. Will be trying to finish the cylinder block castings ready for making the cylinders and valve guides from next week onwards. MM


----------



## NickG

MM,

Looking very good. :bow: It scares me this project ... 1 little mistake looks expensive!

Nick


----------



## Metal Mickey

I have started to in line bore one of the Seal main cylinder block castings and some 6 months later than expected, used my tool setting fixture for the boring bar (the making of which is on the forum and the plans for the fixture were/are on the downloads page) which I am please to say works well. I was a little apprehensive that the movement and positioning of the fixture each time could cause an error but each time I mounted it for the next tool advancement, it read the previous setting exactly.

I have long hankered after a set of slip gauges and have scanned eBay for many a month and was fortunate enough to get an imperials set there recently. So I brought these into use when sorting out the packing required between the cross slide and the casting base. You may well laugh but I had to get my digital calipers just to check whether there marked dimension was width, length etc. Putting that to one side I was able to make two stacks up for the casting to sit on whilst I compared the tapered centre in the headstock with the scribed line on the front of the casting.

Armed with this information I then sort out material for the casting to bolt to, giving me the least amount of work. I nearly came a cropper though when I was using a piece of aluminium I thought was the same width only to find on checking it was quite a bit out so it was fly cut in the mill and an extra piece of material sought (ended up as some sheet copper I have) before it was bolted down and the position checked.

After that it was just a case of making sure it was in line (used a dti to make sure) and then mounted the boring bar between a live centre in the tailstock and a half centre (only other MT2 I had) in the headstock. The bar is driven by a dog and home made brass pillar bolted to the faceplate.

After checking that I had sufficient movement on the cross slide I had to reverse the bar to allow the full travel. My next error was forgetting to make sure the tool was in the right orientation (it cut, but not cleanly!) and after I got over the disappointment of the quality of cut, I saw my mistake and put the tool the right way around. From then on (I have yet to complete the task....) everything went as I had hoped and the tool advanced by a known amount. I may live to regret this, but I think it should work fine. Fortunately Edgar T Westbury tells us the diameter is not too critical................we shall see.....

Some photo's................


----------



## Metal Mickey

Well its been a while and for various reasons Iv'e not been posting, but prompted by Maryak I have updated this post to show I have made some progress (not enough) on the pair of Seal engines. So I thought I may as well update you with a few photo's and today's work. In reverse order then here is today's experiences in starting to make the valves (which are very very small!!) 

This morning I made a start on the valves for the pair of Edgar T Westbury's Seal engines I am building. Its been a while since my last work on this pair for various reasons but at least I managed to make a start on the valves.

I still have to finish the two flywheels but I seem to have had a bit of a block turning these and instead of ruining the good one I am leaving it alone while I start on something else. The valve stems are very small at only 3/32nd " in diameter (about 2.4mm in dia) and with a little apprehension I made a start by first making a pencil drawing from Edgar T's plans. I find this helps as I at least once have had to focus on the dimensions. Also it helps to clarify my approach to machining order.

I decided it would also be useful to refer to the 1947 Article in <a href="http://www.model-engineer.co.uk">Model Engineer</a> for guidance as well as several articles published in <a href="http://www.modelenginebuilder.com">Model Engine Builder</a> (American Magazine) but in the end I felt more confused with the different approaches and fixtures shown. So a 'trial' valve was the order of the day (my excuse in case it goes wrong.....then it turns into a 'trial' piece!).

I started by chucking some 3/8" diameter free cutting stainless steel before facing it off then centre drilling. Once done I decided to run a couple of light cuts to check the tailstock was in line. After the first cut I found it to be out about 2 thou over the short length so adjusted it until it ran true.

I first brought the length of the valve to the outside diameter of the valve over its length (except for approximately 1/4" at the live centre/tailstock end) to the design size of 9/32nd" (just over 7mm in diameter). Then working back from the chuck, using the digital readouts, I came to the point where further reduction of the stem was required.

Because of the thin stem I made light cuts (many many light cuts) but whilst it was more work at least I hoped to reduce the possibility of the valve stem doing its own thing and perhaps wrapping itself round the cutting tool! When getting close to the finish size I again checked it was parallel and was disappointed to find about a thou and a half of an inch difference! However running the tool along a couple of times brought everything back to where it was.

I decided to change the disposable insert for the final cut and was glad I did since it gave a nice bright surface. I then decided to try some of the micro mesh sanding pads I bought for my pens finishes and was really pleased with the results! Will definitely use these for metal as well now. They did work better with a little lubrication (WD40 sprayed on).

The next task was to cut the 45 degree face and to do this I set my top slide over to 45 deg. I used the DRO again to scribe a finish line on the outside of the untouched bar and when repositioning the cross slide to the face end simply kept cutting until reaching the scribed line. Checking the distance again with the DRO's (and magnifying glasses!).

Because of the small diameter of the stem I used my Proxxon tool with its Dremel quick fit cutting disc to cut the tailstock end but oversized. Once this was done the tool was changed to the parting tool and using the DRO to set the point I parted off the valve with the depth of the head a little oversize.

Next time I am going to make a fixture that will allow me to cut the 8BA thread on the end of the valve and also to face off the valve head to dimension, so not quite there yet but I must admit to being pleased at the first attempt! No doubt there are many failures to come with the next 17 needed (or even this one!) so I must not smile too much yet!


----------



## Maryak

Mickey,

Welcome back, nice progress with the seal. :bow:


----------



## ksouers

Mike,
Good to see you back in the shop. Hope all is going well.
Also glad to see you back working on the Seal. I was afraid it had fallen off to oblivion.

Nice work on the valve. Hopefully the rest will go just as well.


----------



## Metal Mickey

Thanks Maryak and Ksouers, 

Yesterday was a bad day! The plans have another error in relation to the threading of the valve stem with 8BA thread. When checking the diameter for a 8BA thread the valve stem is oversized and no mention in his build article (model Engineer 1947) so in my clumsy (I knew I shouldn't be out there) attempts to thread the end of the now 'practice valve' resorted in a bent end, very painful!

However I am not too despondent since I have now established my method of production and ironed out any little snags....

I have written it up on my blog http://www.mikes-models.com/blog

The photo of the bent valve is below.....


----------



## ANIMATE

Great work mike .looooooooooooking good :bow: 
 i have 4 sets of the westbury craftsman twin 10 cc in the shed .. looks like my next project after my hand folder project . thankz mike keep it comeing awesome job 

 Gordy


----------



## Blogwitch

Hi Mike,

I might be able to shed some light on the castings for you.

As you know, you purchased your first set from myself.

They came from the now defunct Woking Precision many years ago, complete with all the bits to go with it. You also know that Hemingway took over the Westbury range from Woking and supposedly 'remastered' a few of the bits (if not all), so that will account for all the differences you are finding.

I do know that under Woking control, the Westbury range of castings were definitely suspect, and I think their quality control wasn't really up to it as it was a one man band. 

In fact, it was a set of Woking castings for the 'Whippet' that put me off making from castings for many years, and even though I have had it running, it was never completely finished off. Hemingway also released these castings as well, and it looks like they are still using the crappy out of register moulds for it, as they tried to build a pair over on The Model Engine site, and looks to have died a death because of the problems encountered.

I don't know if Hemingway have corrected the Seal castings and plans to cure the most obvious mistake on the originals of the inlet/exhaust studs cutting thru the head mounting studs, or vice versa, depending which were done first. Definitely a thing to be checked.


John


----------



## Metal Mickey

Many thanks for your comments Gordy, they do spur you on (well they do to me!).

Hello John, nice to see you back posting. Your information re the castings does ring true against the info I have been able to gather. I am aware of the stud issue bit thanks for the heads up. Since the design is over 60 years old you would think the bugs were out now but they are not! The plans still have many mistakes, my favourite at the moment is the 2 9/8" measurement. More annoying however was the drawing of the valve not showing any reduction to allow the 8BA threading!

Still, some progress was made the last couple of sessions with the valves. I now have a good methodology for turning the valves that works for me so its now a case of producing the 16 I need for both engines. I have decided to make the valves in two stages. First complete all the turning and secondly to thread the valve stem 8BA then face the valve off to length. 

So far I have one completed valve and a further two completed to stage 1 (i.e not faced or threaded yet).

I think it will be a good weeks work for my session length, but I am taking it one step at a time etc. Anyway a couple of photo's


----------



## Jasonb

Good to see you are back in the shop and making progress. Now get these little engines out of the way and get on with that Fowler  

Jason


----------



## Metal Mickey

Jason, I really love the work you are doing with your and get the latest pictures. The trouble with the Fowler is as soon as she is finished I will sell her since I am a builder not a runner as it were, well that's my excuse! Also now that your ahead of me I have someone who has sorted all the problems! Just don't steam her yet!

Mike


----------



## Blogwitch

Hi Mike,

Seeing those valves brings back memories for me, I loved making them.

Are you using the 'modelling' technique for the valves, that is both valve and seat cut to 45 degrees, or the usual full size practice of one degree difference, IE seat at 45 degs, valve at 46 degs, or valve at 45 and seat at 44 depending if you cut or ground the seats initially? 
For larger valves, I always used the one deg split, it allowed you to achieve a much narrower seat and a better seal. I will be using that method when eventually I get to making my new R&B engine from castings.

Keep up the good work, you are making very good progress, despite the problems you are encountering.

John


----------



## Maryak

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> Since the design is over 60 years old you would think the bugs were out now but they are not! The plans still have many mistakes, my favourite at the moment is the 2 9/8" measurement. More annoying however was the drawing of the valve not showing any reduction to allow the 8BA threading!



Mike,

Glad you sorted the valve problem. Funny but IMHO if a model engineering project has mistakes in the drawing or in the associated castings they are rarely corrected. My 1st ICE was the same, the design was 1934 but the drawing bought in 2007 still had the original errors and required a rework to allow the engine to fit together. If it was your lathe, mill, drill etc. you would be seeking compensation from the manufacturer/distributor. 

I guess we modelers like the challenge of working around the problem more than we do the challenge of compensation from those who are in effect charging money for goods which are not fit for the purpose.

Apologies for the rant and the hijack.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## the engineer

i had the same problem with the inlet studs on the sealion then i saw the modification someone did cant remember if it was on this site but it sure worked out all right in the end.
 the sealion was the first engine casting set i procured re deseased estate
and doing a multi cly engine as a first led to lots of stupid mistakes and frustrations .so back in the box it went for a few years.
 got a few simple ones under my belt before bringing it to completion.
also in the box with it was two kittywake sets or so i thought it now appears that one is the lesser known kitty hawk a larger scaled version of the kitty wake but what i wanted to say was that i found the castings for the kittywake and the sealion to be very brittle and ended up helicoiling the sealion headstuds into the block it may have been the age of the castings but the overall finish was quite poor and definatly not to the standard of the E T westbury we read of
 its good to see the work you have done on these seal engines and thanks for the insperation you have given me to get back and re start on the kittywake which is now nearing completion
 thanks to ebay i found the plans for the carb which i lacked and have also found a source for the plans of the kittyhawk so if little brother works ok it may end up with a big brother to sit beside 
so thanks again regards john


----------



## Metal Mickey

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Hi Mike,
> 
> Seeing those valves brings back memories for me, I loved making them.
> 
> Are you using the 'modelling' technique for the valves, that is both valve and seat cut to 45 degrees, or the usual full size practice of one degree difference, IE seat at 45 degs, valve at 46 degs, or valve at 45 and seat at 44 depending if you cut or ground the seats initially?
> For larger valves, I always used the one deg split, it allowed you to achieve a much narrower seat and a better seal. I will be using that method when eventually I get to making my new R&B engine from castings.
> 
> Keep up the good work, you are making very good progress, despite the problems you are encountering.
> 
> John



Hello John, I must admit I wasn't aware of a 1 degree difference method. I was just going to make them the same and then try and seat them similar to full side valve grinding.....Now I will have to have a thunk. The good news is I haven't made any of the valve guides to the stage of cutting the mating seating. 

Is there anyone else who would like to pass comment on Johns method?

Managed to make another two valves this morning (excluding the threaded end and facing to size) and have decided that I will carry out the final stage when I have made the first 8. Next session after that will be to machine up the valve guides but that will not happen until next week (fingers crossed).

Bob, I have to agree with you! The words uttered after I made valve one when the problem arose were a little more than 'oh bother'. Its a funny thing but I really like the little valves, more so than other items I have made in the past. I suppose its because they are so small. The stem diameter is less than 100 and their overall length is only 1.25" long. I didn't know I could make them especially to the tolerances I am achieving.



			
				the engineer  said:
			
		

> .......... to get back and re start on the kittywake which is now nearing completion......... regards john



John is your build on this forum (Sorry for not knowing..) as I would like to see your build....


----------



## Maryak

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> Is there anyone else who would like to pass comment on Johns method?



IMHO, Bogs is spot on a thin seat is a good seat and a 1o difference is the best way to achieve this.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## the engineer

hi thanks for the question on the build of the sealion the answer is no its not on this site as i only found this site after the finish time but i will dig the camera out and take some photos 
you guys would soon get sick of me if i did a build thread as i tend to do a bit then do something else on another project and then come back later and do more again
regard john


----------



## Metal Mickey

Thanks Bob, good job I haven't cut the valve guides angles yet!.

John you are not alone with having more than one job on the go. I suspect the majority of us operate the same way although I do admire the single item approach and wish I was in that grouping. I just find that a problem goes away when on another project and always seems less when I return.


----------



## NickG

I know someone that's building a v twin aero engine from hemmingway and he's had 3 cylinder head castings, 1 with blow holes and the other 2 with bosses in the wrong place for valve guides etc. He ended up making the heads from solid and producing a far better job.

Nice work Mike, looking good.

Nick


----------



## Metal Mickey

Hello Nick, I agree. The sets of castings I have purchased have been disappointing in finish especially. I did toy with making my own head including overhead cam when I got the first set but skill overcame ambition! However I am in the midst of designing my own engine which is a long term project. I was put onto Alibre and Its a great program. I have even used it to design before build recently to make some brackets, and it worked!

Today I managed a session in the workshop and completed (other than cutting a screwdriver slot in the valve faces) the first set of 8 valves. Last night I thought I would change my plan and get something to revolve to spur me on! To that end I ma going to get the valve side completed i.e. the camshaft fitted and working on one engine. To that end I drew up machining methods for the tappets, nuts, valve inserts, and camshaft bearings so that side of the engine works!

So after completing the valves the next items I was going to tackle was the two 1/4" hex nuts per valve. That was until I found I didn't have a suitable drill for the tapping. According to my charts I needed a 1.8mm No. 50 or 0.0709" drill. When going to my numbers drill box the only one missing is ............yep No. 50. So that job was put to one side and instead I decided to make the two camshaft bushes. The first went well enough and was reamed 0.250" and was pleased when it fits the camshaft nicely. 

The second bush however produced another problem when checking the main block casting. This one was bought second and had some work done by the previous owner. All the work when checked previously was of a high standard, however the two holes bored previously were not the same. One, the timing end was spot on but the second was slightly oval! So worked stopped on the bush because it will need to be oversized, and the casting set up on my angle plate on the mill and the hole bored circular. When the finished 'round' hole was measured the bush will need to be some 35 thou oversize.

I can't see this will cause any problems yet, but will keep my fingers crossed. I will be using some hardening powder for both the nuts and the tappets, for the first time so that will be interesting. I have had it for a couple of years now and never used it before so if anyone has any tips additional to the 'normal' instructions I have, that would be very helpful.


----------



## lordedmond

I assume you have Kasite /sp

what I do for small parts is to dip the area you require to harden in water then dip that into the powder , then heat to red and quench in water.

Stuart


----------



## Metal Mickey

Hello Stuart, My powder is shown in the picture below. Its a different name and the instructions vary from your method. Did you develop your method? or is it modified from the instruction similar to those recommended with my powder Eternite?

1. Heat metal to 900 to 1000 degrees.
2. Place in container under powder and agitate making sure item completely covered.
3 Leave for 30 minutes then remove and quench with oil or water.
4. Repeat the process at least once. (may take more goes depending on metal)

It then gives a warning regarding fire hazard if left uncovered.

Mike


----------



## lordedmond

yes I have developed the method

the reason is that the method with my powder resulted in the powder being blown off , eg it would not stick to small parts ( small rod eyes and links ) 
it is very economic with the powder and causes less cleanup

I would recommend that you test with some of the same metal and test the results using both method ( what works for me may not work for your parts )

Stuart


----------



## Metal Mickey

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> yes I have developed the method
> 
> the reason is that the method with my powder resulted in the powder being blown off , eg it would not stick to small parts ( small rod eyes and links )
> it is very economic with the powder and causes less cleanup
> 
> I would recommend that you test with some of the same metal and test the results using both method ( what works for me may not work for your parts )
> 
> Stuart



Will do Stuart, I will let you know the results.

Progress over the last couple of days has seen 8 tappets made and another valve guide. The tappets went well enough and here are a couple of pictures. One little point of interest maybe is the depth stop tube I made for the slot cutter. This was yesterdays solution to ensuring the same depth, today.....used a dial indicator resting against a clamp made to go over the tailstock tube. Reason for two methods? Forgot I had the clamp! Tunnel vision strikes again!

The photos are 

1st: One of the camshaft bushes being turned.
2nd: Angle of oil hole found from plans using digital angle rulers.
3rd: Vice set to same angle.
4th: Current progress on the Port engine.


----------



## lordedmond

One point that is of interest to me is why you made the reverse direction camshaft?

I thought the normal marine for small craft was to drive one prop from the flywheel end and one from the fan pulley end thus putting the engine exhaust to the outboard side of both engines

Stuart


----------



## Metal Mickey

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> One point that is of interest to me is why you made the reverse direction camshaft?
> 
> I thought the normal marine for small craft was to drive one prop from the flywheel end and one from the fan pulley end thus putting the engine exhaust to the outboard side of both engines
> 
> Stuart



Hello Stuart, rightly or wrongly I decided that since the engines were designed to run in either direction I would have them run contra rotationally which should help in straight line steerage and manoeuvrability. I have only named the engines port and starboard at the moment to ensure that the parts made match. When completed which side they go in relation to routing exhaust should be sorted then........unless of course I have made a big error? Both camshafts turn in opposite direction to each other (with a massive help from Steve Huck's I may add). 

Hope that clears up any confusion. If not I may have the exhausts running up a funnel! :big:


----------



## lordedmond

Thanks for the info

when I was at work about 13 years ago we had 6 16 cylinder diesel engines ( 96 litre 1000Hp ) they had the option that you have done to be provided with a alternate camshaft so you are in good company , keep up the good work

Stuart


----------



## Metal Mickey

Those were a little larger than my engines Stuart!

Today I managed to complete the remaining bronze valve guide blanks for one engine. For the valve side of one seal I only have the 8 sets of twin nuts to make (then harden with the tappets.) and bore out the valve guides. Once those are done I am going back to the Fowler traction engine to do some plate work for a change, and continue making the tender.


----------



## rockets

Looking good MM. What kind of vessel are these beauties destined for? (Model boat fanatic!)

Rockets


----------



## Metal Mickey

rockets  said:
			
		

> Looking good MM. What kind of vessel are these beauties destined for? (Model boat fanatic!)
> 
> Rockets



Hello Rockets, the boat is a Fairey Marine Huntsman around 48" long. A picture below shows a full size version. It is supposed to be being built by my brother (I challenged him but I suspect I will be finishing it when the engines are finished).


----------



## lordedmond

e bar gum that brings back a few memories

I used to have one of those fitted a single veco 61 glow plug motor and fitted a tuned pipe ;D to it , had to put about 4 pounds of lead in the back end to correct the water line , but by ekk did it shift

a friend fitted a OS 80 to his but it would not perform not sure why tho

I should go well with those two motors

Stuart


----------



## rockets

Thanks Mike, I can't remember if I asked you before, memory's not what it was!

I can't wait to see the end result, I really like the Huntsman. I'm a big fan of the Westbury designs, hopefully I'll hone my skills enough to have a crack at one myself. My choice would be big Vic Smeed boat like the Vivacity.

Rockets.


----------



## Metal Mickey

Well its been a stressful last 10 days or so....why? because I have been working in wood! As some of you may remember I ***&^^% wood! If it wasn't for our new granddaughter of 6 months old these 'projects wouldn't have taken place.

So after finishing them what would I work in next? ....yes wood! I have been working on making some wooden patterns for the Seal. The two engines being built are to run contra rotation propellers so I will be taking advantage of Edgar T Westbury's design that allows the engines to run in reverse. However that means I need two castings to be handed so a phone call to http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_Seal___Edgar_T_Westbury.html
was made. Kirk Burwell had a look around and it seems that whilst this design feature allowed for reverse running, no one had ever ordered any castings, so no patterns exist.

Kirk did say that if I produced the patterns and 'lent' them to him he would get some cast. Being a novice pattern maker, and worried about producing good enough quality, I am going to cast some myself. If they come out well enough, then they can go. If not, then adjustment or Mk2 versions will need to be produced. I hope to cast some over the next few days at the latest.

One of the benefits of making the wooden toys was that I made use at long last of a bearing set for a 'lazy Susan'. It may be simple but really does help when spraying parts. 

Below are a few photo's but please bear in mind they are not finished! I also decided that since I was going to fire up the furnace I would cast other items set aside for just such a session. So a table for my bandsaw, a pen stand for displaying....pens....and a coupling for my power table feed (not sure it will work as a pattern). I want to produce a good table for the bandsaw to fit in with an idea to cut my expensive HT steel in two for both crankshafts.

Well that's me up to date. If you want to see the wooden toys (nothing special believe me!) then they are on my blog website http://www.mikes models.com/blog


----------



## HS93

this may be of interest I help a pal out with his Huntsman 28 its 42 " long and is powered by a brushless motor I made and installed the belt reduction for it and the running gear.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/user/pmdevlin1#p/u/3/VObcKxNWh_c[/ame]
not the best of video's

Peter


----------



## Metal Mickey

Lovely boat! Watched the video and that's some performance! Now I am a little worried how ours will perform with twin petrol engines!


----------



## HS93

I had the same 42" Huntsman when I was very young with a 15 cc gannet in it(petrol) and it went well, when you get to prop positioning give me a shout as you have to be very carfull with this boat, is yours wood of fiberglass and is it a kit as I may be able to give you some advice.

peter


----------



## Blogwitch

Mike,

I think I have already mentioned it to you, around 60" would be ideal for a single Seal, for two Seals, you would need to add about another 6" to 9" inches at least.

When I was going to build it, I was looking at the Riva Aquarama with a Seal in it, with the engine mounted in a scale position, in the rear 1/3rd. You have to build that large to be able to accommodate the vertical layout of the engine, as because of the wet sump, it can't lay on it's side like you can do with a glo engine.


Bogs


----------



## Metal Mickey

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> I think I have already mentioned it to you, around 60" would be ideal for a single Seal, for two Seals, you would need to add about another 6" to 9" inches at least........
> Bogs



Thanks Bogs, I must admit to being concerned with building the engine and not the boat but when I saw that 42" Huntsman running on the electric motor I was shocked! So I will look again nearer to time to see what to put it in. A scaled up/down RAF second world war rescue craft may be a thought........



			
				HS93  said:
			
		

> I had the same 42" Huntsman when I was very young with a 15 cc gannet in it(petrol) and it went well, when you get to prop positioning give me a shout as you have to be very carfull with this boat, is yours wood of fiberglass and is it a kit as I may be able to give you some advice.
> 
> peter



Hell Peter, the boat is off a plan and not part of a kit. Bearing in mind what Bogs, has said I may need to review the model to use.......luckily Steve my brother who was having a 'go' at building the boat has slowed to 'slow' speed so a change of model would not be a great problem, getting into the workshop to build the engines is!!!! However I would be grateful to take up your help offer when we get nearer to that phase of the project.

Thanks for the interest.

Mike


----------



## HS93

if you decide to build a RAF crash tender I can help, I have a lot of info on the full size boats and have built a few. one I am building at the moment, you can get a hull for a 46" version in fiberglass and I am shore two engines would fit, I have a mate with one and i can get him to measure the space available, they where a high speed boat as well twin screw,sorry to the non boat people.

peter


----------



## Metal Mickey

HS93  said:
			
		

> if you decide to build a RAF crash tender I can help, I have a lot of info on the full size boats and have built a few. one I am building at the moment, you can get a hull for a 46" version in fiberglass and I am shore two engines would fit, I have a mate with one and i can get him to measure the space available, they where a high speed boat as well twin screw,sorry to the non boat people.
> 
> peter



Hello Peter, re the measurements, that would be a big help in deciding. So if you can get the measurements that would be most useful.

Mike


----------



## Metal Mickey

Pleased to get out into the workshop and carry on with the Seal build. Today I spent my time boring out the previously made valve guide blanks. Once this was completed I reamed all the guides 3/32" to match the valves and decided to press all the guides and cylinder liners into place. Before pressing them home using the Myford face plate and tailstock, I checked the depth of recess and the amount of clearance on the cylinder liner or valve guide. Then I measured how proud they were so ensuring they were pressed fully home. 

The next task will be to face the block off to size (allowing 5 thou for the base to be cleaned up) so I spent my last time setting the block on mill ready for tomorrow. I did a test running the new power feed and am wondering whether the control of speed has a wide enough range...... Will see the next time....

A few pictures the help.....





[/img]


----------



## stevehuckss396

Good to have you back Mickey!!!!


----------



## Maryak

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Good to have you back Mickey!!!!



Likewise Mike. ;D ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Thanks, you lot keep me going!! ;D


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## joe d

Wot they said... good to see you back, Mike! 

Cheers, Joe


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## Metal Mickey

Today I managed to get the surface fly cut back and also the base but have left 3 thou for final lapping of the top and bottom. Hope its enough! The home made power feed worked great and certainly helped me with the physical side of turning x axis. So that was some good news!

Fitted the valves and couldn't resist trying a couple of springs just to see...don't know why we do it...get ahead of ourselves...anyway I will now sort out a cutter to cut the valve seats.

Decided to test out my idea for cutting the HT steel in half bought for the two crankshafts. My method is to tap the end of the bar (within the allowance of the finished length of the cranks) and secure two pieces of flat bar to it. These are then clamped to the saw table. This will allow both to be secured and remain there once the cut has been made.

Decided to try and make the two from one bar of HT (its very expensive in the UK) bit have left it for the next session when I will be fitter (don't want pieces flying around he workshop!

If it works all right I will start to make the crankshafts next.


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## kustomkb

Nice work Mike!

Good to see you back at it.


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## Metal Mickey

Sorry again for such a long delay but I have been able to some limited progress shown below. I did start on the con rods but to be honest felt I over elaborated the work. I made a fixture to machine the top of the con rods using a small 3" rotary table and tried to use it as I did when making the chess set. However, whilst the top radius worked very well working out the angles seemed to take more time than if I just profiled the blanks! Because I was using some aluminium from the scrap box I reviewed the whole process and have ordered some bar to a known specification.

I have therefore started to make the pair of crankshafts and adopted a simpler system (or I hope I have!). I ordered two blanks from Hemingways (they supply a kit of parts and also materials) and decided just in case to normalise the bars. 

The it was over to the milling machine to remove the waste and then on to the lathe where I have turned the first end to overall size before continuing with the others, but at least its a start! For a more detailed write up have a look at my website www.mikes-models.com


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## Maryak

Hi Mickey,

Good to hear from you.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Thanks Bob,

It seems Australia and New Zealand are having a rough time lately. I hope you and your family are ok.


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## Maryak

Mickey,

We are fine and we have been very lucky this year, apart from some very localised flash flooding during January, some 50km NE of us. I don't want to push our luck as Adelaide is an earthquake prone area.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Metal Mickey

Good to hear, keep safe!


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## agmachado

Hi Mickey,

This project is very cool!

When do you will have new news for us?

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## Metal Mickey

Hi, due to Health, the odd wooden toy for my first grandchild, and sorting out a wooden shed (workshop now I have insulated it) for all things wood (and I hate wood! - Well I must admit I like turning wood though) then getting tendinitis on my left hand its been very very frustrating re metalwork!

However the end may be in sight.....I am hoping another week should see me back into the workshop and finishing off the two crankshafts and I can't wait! You take your health for granted when you are fit, my advice is don't.......its a gift.....

Thanks for the interest though. I will be adding details when I can get some work done.....

Mike


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## agmachado

Okay Mike... I understand!

I hope your health better soon and I will be here to see your progress!

Best regards,

Alexandre


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## low1200hd

Metal Mickey said:


> I agree Jason, thanks and thanks to everyone else for their comments. I have a couple of options though, I can try for replacement castings or have fun sorting them out. The only replacement I would go for though is a sump but I will leave that until I see how my fix turns out. Plenty of time for that though........On with the build says I!
> 
> Well today was a good day. The first of many I hope. I wanted to complete at least one blank camshaft in steel. I expect I could have made 1 ½ blanks if I hadn't made a mistake with the taper end of the camshaft.
> 
> I had completed all the fussy bits and then took too much off the 1/8th tail. So that was parted off and will be kept as a comparator piece (scrap really!). I was a little miffed that I managed to get all the parts within 0.001 only to make a silly mistake at the end (literally).
> 
> At least the structure I put so much time into for machining seemed to work. Indeed the time I took to make the nearly completed camshaft blank [see photo] was much reduced for the second attempt. This particular camshaft is made from BMS (bright metal steel) and will be for my hardening experiment. I have another two blanks to make over the next couple of days but these will be turned from stainless steel. Not sure if it's the best material but it is surely harder wearing than BMS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only task remaining to complete today's example is to drill the small hole in the opposite end from the taper. This is to allow a small steel pointer to be used when turning the camshaft in the fixture designed by Steve Huck (thanks again Steve!). I will drill the hole when I have all three blanks machined to the same point to make use of the set up time involved.
> 
> I decided that the best way to approach the task of producing the cam blank was to machine the awkward part first. The first job was to centre the bar in the 4 jaw chuck with the minimum showing. Then the bar was turned down first to 0.250 diameter. Using the digital readouts the start and end of the taper was lightly scored on to the bar, along with the measurement of the length for the thread.
> 
> It was then another turning job to bring the diameter down to suit the 2BA thread which was then threaded by use of the die held in the tailstock holder. Once this was carried out the thread was then reduced to size. The next procedure was to turn the 10° taper just in time noticing that the tap setting should be only 5°. I must admit to a little apprehension when sizing the job up especially blending the taper to the threads. In the end though there wasn't any difficulty and the thought was far worse than the deed (as I have found with many engineering tasks done for the first time).
> 
> Once the tapered end was completed the 4 jaws were released and the bar drawn out, centered again, and then parted off with sufficient length to make a complete camshaft blank.
> 
> The bar was reversed in the 4 jaw with only enough bar showing to allow the dti to be used to centre the bar. After facing off the end was centre drilled so a live centre could be used in the production of the camshaft. This was the first time that I thought about how I was going to turn the cams in the next stage. In particular because the taper end was very small and certainly too small to centre drill and use against the live centre, but likewise I couldn't grip the nice taper end in the 4 jaw chuck. So I decided to produce a brass bush that would protect the shaft with the taper [photo] leaving the larger diameter faced end to be held with the live centre.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once the bush was drilled and reamed, it was parted off and the bush and shaft placed in the 4 Jaw chuck, using the dti again to get it running true. I decided (with fingers crossed) that I better check the shaft was true across its length and I was really pleased to find no discernable difference between ends. Now the test would be if my new chart with the dimensions on (chart is too posh a term for the scrap of paper) would work.
> 
> Starting with the end nearest the chuck, the digital readouts proved there worth as I set the position of the saddle into the correct position. With a new insert in the parting off tool I took the cut to depth. Set the y axis reading to zero and moved the saddle to the end position and cutting to 0.005 of the finished size. This left a middle piece to be removed, again to within the 0.005 of finished size. I now carefully moved the saddle between the two cam edges using the parting tool to turn down the last 5 thou to finish across the gap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the saddle was moved towards the tailstock and into position for the next cut to within 0.005 before cutting the end position, removing the centre part last. This was repeated until all 8 cam blanks were cut. The tool was changed and the end nearest the tailstock then turned to finished size using the half method. Since learning about the half method I can nearly always get to the 1 thousandths of an inch allowance I give myself. Well unless I go stupid as I did earlier on in the day, but that wasn't a failure of the methodology, rather the stupidity of the operator!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that was enough for me today. At least I made progress. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to produce another blank (I would like to get both done really but that depends more on health issues than time )


Hello, I have a question. What is the half method?


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## lovemanop

Ask let successfully.


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## mohavegun

Can anyone tell me where in the 1947 series of Model Engineer magazine the construction article for E T Westbury's "Seal" 15 CC petrol engine started and ended?


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## mohavegun

Hello,  I posted that I needed info on the whereabouts of the construction articles on the Seal engine,  I found them on line this evening.


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