# DraftSight - Free 2D CAD



## shred (Oct 6, 2010)

I got a heads up on this from a contact in the CAD business--

The Solidworks people (Dassault) have released a free 2D CAD/drawing program (in Beta now) 

I've not messed with it, but it could be worth a look if not too crippled. www.draftsight.com


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 6, 2010)

Shred-

I downloaded Draftsight and loaded it.
The info given warns that Beta programs can be unstable and should not be trusted with production drawings.

I loaded the most complicated drawing I could find into it, about a 5 MB drawing, and tried everything I could to make it lock up, but the program operated perfectly.
The screen layout is very good, and no jumpy cursor movement or other annoying things like the cheap programs.
I used it first time no problem without reading any instructions.
I just loaded it and started drawing. No problems whatsoever.
Very intuitive program.

It does ask you for an email address for registration, and then send you an email that you have to respond to just by pressing the link, but nothing else, no quart of blood or first born or anything.

I must say, I am very impressed with this 2D product. It is not an el-cheapo. It is obviously a part of a larger very well designed interface.

I did not figure out how to use "press-and-drag" with it, but other than that, it seems to do everything I want, and do it well.
Press and drag eliminates having to click twice to select an object. You just window an object with press and drag and it is automatically selected. Much faster.

It appears that the keyboard shortcuts can be customized easily, which is good since I use custom shortcuts extensively. I draw with two hands drawing, never taking my hands out of position, and never looking away from the screen. I use the left hand on the keyboard with custom keyboard shortcuts such as E for line, D for delete, F for move, C for copy, V for mirror, T for trim, S for save, A for match properties, R for rotate, B for block, X for explode, etc. The idea is to group the commands that are used most frequently under the left hand index finger, otherwise you can end up making some awkward hand movements trying to reach frequently used keys. The worst thing you can do is arrange your shortcuts so that you have to move your left hand out of position to reach a commonly used command, and worst of all, a key stroke that requires you to look away from the screen.

I have to make a living using 2D CAD, so time is money for me. I even built custom key extensions for the ESC, F3 (snap to grip) and F8 ortho lock keys.
The key extensions look like Rube Goldberg stuff, but they actually work, and keep my left hand in position. I also have to be careful for carpal tunnel syndrome, so less hand movement is better when you do it all day every day. It is amazing to me how may people put the keyboard and mouse up high so that you have to be like Moses holding up the tablets all day, and also put the screen up really high, so you have to crane your neck back all day to see it. Talk about a painful job when you have poor computer ergonomics.

The program seems to have excellent grips, which is what I use constantly, and the thing that I have seen other programs fall short on. The grips seem to match the other commonly used CAD programs, ie: center, midpoint, endpoint, etc. Without a good set of grips in a drawing program, you are really screwed (pardon my frankness). This program has good grips.

This program also allows you to "save-as" to a wide variety of formats such as version 2000, 2002, 2004, etc., and I think even to PDF, but I did not try the PDF feature.
This program would be a useful conversion tool to change from 2010 drawings to 2000 version drawings.

I use a few diesel routines, and some custom fly-out toolbars and scripts, but I think I could probably use Draftsight almost for production work, assuming they get it past Beta and can guarantee that it does not have any serious bugs. I could not find any bugs in it.

I did try a variety of things to try and lock it, and it passed the test very well, no problems at all.

It also has right click for repeat command, or other selections on a pop-up menu, and pan by holding down the wheel on the mouse. These are also two items that you don't want to try and do CAD without.

Photo below is of my Rube Goldberg keyboard.

Heck of a 2D CAD program.
It is anyting but crippled, this appears to be a real winner.
Normally you would pay about $750.00 for a 2D program like that.

The other 2D CAD companies will be crying in their beer over this one (and probably brushing up their resumes).

I assume it is a lead in to their 3D products.
Most of the 3D programs are out of my reach cost-wise, and the ones that are within my reach, I would not consider using for production.
I have heard good things about Solidworks, but have not seen it in action or used it.

Thanks Shred, it appears to be a really good and really free 2D CAD program.


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## shred (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for the review. I could spend all day working with something like this and not pick up half what an expert would in five minutes. 

I may pass it back by my guy and see if he'll spill any more beans


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 7, 2010)

Pat. J :
thanks for the review. Getting a write up from from a CAD professional means a a lot . I am slowly getting used to Alibre 3-D and some 2d for mods. I am starting to draw at a decent pace but Am making mistakes that it takes me too long to find. one little glitch can don extrude. 
I may still download and try this program and I need something for work we have nothing. Sometimes C.O.C v 1.0( Pen paper and ruler) just does not cut it. 
Tin


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## lazyman (Oct 7, 2010)

Hi All
Bin lurking for awhile now and havn't got round to an intro as yet, I second Pat J's review of draft sight I normally use Acad at work and i now prefer using draftsight so much so I've removed acad from my home pc.

Its also got a "steering wheel" like acad2011 only they call it mouse gestures, hold right mouse button down and drag.


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## cfellows (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for the review, Pat. I'm assuming that Dassault Systems will eventually market this program? More to the point, do you think the Beta will stop working at some predetermined date? I would hate to get used to using it only to have them pull the rug from under me.

Chuck


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## bearcar1 (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, I DL'ed the file for the MAC version but it will not mount or install on my laptop. I am currently running OS X (latest version). I would like to break into the world of CAD for my simple uses but find it difficult to hack over the big dollars for a program that will be entirely too complicated or possess far more bells and whistles than I will ever need or want. I was hoping this product would help me solve at least some of those obstacles. No luck again. :redface2:

BC1
Jim


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 9, 2010)

Chuck-

My guess is that Dassault will offer this 2D program either for no cost or very low cost in order to get you warm and fuzzy with their 3D packages.

The 3D packages they offer are (way) out of my financial range, although I certainly could use a good 3D package, and if I did 3D production, I would use them.

The 2D program is so similar to AutoCad 2D that I did not have to read any directions or do anything appreciably different than I normally do in Acad in order to use Draftsight, I believe you could transfer anything learned to another 2D program.

If there are HMEM members that would like to learn 2D, I can put together a tutorial that is geared towards drawing model engines.

It was very difficult for me to learn 2D CAD, but part of the problem was that the tutorials are too generic, and special applications can really benefit from special configurations.

I will thing about the best way to set up a 2D tutorial.
Certainly many know 2D, but I am sure some may not.


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## joe d (Oct 9, 2010)

Pat

I for one am completely unlearned in any drafting that requires more than a piece of paper and pencils....
I will be an eager student of a tutorial that actually makes sense to my late 1960s appreciation of three views on an 
a,b,c, or d sheet!

Cheers, Joe


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

Ok, I have loaded Draftsight on my main machine at home, and am going through it.
It is basically just like AutoCad 2D, a clone basically.

I will detail the steps further, but the steps I take to set up the program include:

SET UP THE PROGRAM TOOLBARS AND OPTIONS:
1. Turn on the toolbars that you want/need/commonly would use. Drag them around into a position that you prefer. ( I will detail this more later).

2. Set all the variables such as units, cursor size and type, and a few other options. (More details later).

GENERAL PROCEDURES - DRAWINGS:
1. I like to keep the drawings as simple as possible. I have found that many drafting people are of the opinion that if you are given 10,000 options, then you are a better drafter if you actually use all 10,000 options, and they feel better when they mix and match the options randomly so that only they can figure out what they did. I cannot emphasize enough....LESS IS MORE in 2D cad drafting.
Keep your drawings simple and then you and anyone else can use your drawings without having a PHD in 10,000 options. Don't force other people to have to reverse engineer your cad setup just to be able to use your drawings. Simple drawings are also much easier to import into other programs, or to change versions within the same program.
KISS (Keep it simply simple, it really pays off in the long run).

2. Consistency is everything in CAD drawings. One should almost always draws a line or entity by snapping to some fixed point on an object that is already in the drawing. Never draw "floaters". Floaters are objects that just float around in space, and are not attached to or referenced to any point. A drawing full of floaters will prohibit you from having accurate measurements.

3. Don't draw more than you have to. For most objects, you can draw just 1/4 of the object, and then mirror the remainder into place. The mirrored objects will be exactly identical to the original, and you only have to draw 1/4 of the object.

4. Remember the UNDO button. Many times, I will have drawn a number of lines, only to remember that I started the first line wrong. Don't erase the drawing, just UNDO back to the correct point, and then start again.

5. Either use the AUTOSAVE option so that the program automatically saves your drawing every so many minutes, or toggle this command OFF and do a manual save every so often. I toggle off the AUTOSAVE option, but I manually save the drawing after every command is completed using the customized keyboard keystroke "S". Whichever works for you. If you are not religious about saving, then by all means use the AUTOSAVE option. There is nothing worse than working on a drawing for an hour, only to have a power bump, and poof, it is all gone.

6. Every day I do major work on a drawing, I save the file with a new Rev number, ie: ENGINE-NO-5-Rev-01.dwg, ENGINE-NO-5-Rev-02.dwg, etc. That way, if the file happens to get corrupted (which happens rarely, but it happens), then you can drop back to the previous rev number. Or if you realize you have made a massive error on day 5 of drawing, you can just drop back to the drawing created on an earlier day, without loosing the entire drawing.

7. I never use grids (grids are a series of tiny dots that you can toggle to show up on the screen), and I find them very counterproductive. If you have a specific application that would lend itself to the grid, by all means use grids. If you do use grids, the F7 key toggles them on and off. If you see a bunch of dots appear suddenly that you were not expecting, you may have hit F7 accidently. Just hit it again and toggle the grid off.

8. Get a text and scale chart (I will post one here). It is the CAD equivalent of a tap and die chart. Don't CAD without a chart.

9. Draw EVERYTHING exactly the size it is in the real world. If you measure a screw 6" long with a ruler, then draw it 6" long. If you have a piston 2" in diameter, then draw it 2" in diameter. If you fail to draw things the same size as they are in the real world, then your will have endless trouble with dimensions, etc., etc.
NEVER SCALE A DRAWING UP OR DOWN. That is a serious no-no, but it is so easy to do. Scale titleblocks up and down all you want, but not the drawing itself.

10. I have a series of pre-drawn titleblocks for all the common scales, and I insert the whole bunch of them into whatever drawing I start. It is then a simple matter to just pick the one you want and the one that fits around your drawing. This eliminates having to scale titleblocks up and down. The titleblock that fits around your drawing will determine your scale factor. For small models, I like to stay with a 8.5"x11" sheet, and plot everything at a ratio of 1:1, ie: a 5" line in CAD plots on the paper 5" long.
If you include correctly scaled text below each titleblock, then just copy the text that goes with the size titleblock you select, you don't even need the chart for that.

11. I generally draw a horizontal and vertical centerline first, and then any mirroring uses the intersection of these two lines. Other lines can get trimmed, etc. and may not reflect a true center when mirroring.

12. I use shortcut keys for the most frequently used commands such as "C" for COPY, "M" for MOVE, "R" for ROTATE, "T" for TRIM, "S" for SAVE, "M" for MIRROR, "O" for OFFSET, "E" for DELETE, "L" for LINE ( I actually have my own key shortcuts to minimize hand/finger movements, but many people stick with the stock shortcuts that come with the program, since it is easier to rember). Shortcut keys are keys on the keyboard that can be programed to start a particular command using your left hand using a single keystroke. (Remember to hit ESC to stop drawing a line, unless you want to continue to draw segment after segment.)
Generally, a fairly consistent shortcut key arrangement will be as follows:

E = DELETE
R = ROTATE (you will have to set this in Draftsight)
T = TEXT (I use T for TRIM)
U = UNDO
I = INSERT BLOCK
O = OFFSET
A = ARC
S = STRETCH (I use S for SAVE)
D = DIMENSION STYLE (I use D for DELETE)
F = FILLET
H = HATCH
L = LINE
X = XPLODE
C = CIRCLE (I use C for COPY) (remember, you can keep selecting additional points and dropping copies all over the drawing once you start the COPY command, ESC to stop copying).
B = BLOCK (makes a block) (Making a block means that you select a number of unrelated lines and objects, and create a single entity such as a "CylinderHead". Once you have created the cylinder head, all of the objects in the cylinder head move as a single object when you select and move the block. Exploding the block returns the items to their original unrelated form.)
M = MOVE

I use custom shortcut keys designed to keep the left hand in place at all times, and to group the most frequently used commands under the left index finger, as mentioned above, but that makes for some odd shortcuts such as F = MOVE. Since most keystrokes seem to be are COPY, MOVE and ROTATE, then I can pick any of these with my left index finger easily using the F, C and R buttons. 

13. I use the OFFSET command frequently when drawing engines. Generally I establish a base line, and then offset from that baseline. The effect is to create a copy of the line at the offset distance that you specify. ie: Draw a line, offset it 1", and you have two lines representing a cylinder with the bore of 1". Offset the lines again, and you have the outer cylinder walls, and offset again, and you have the outer flange dimensions.

14. I have seen a number of programs on the forum that calcuate hole layouts and similar things. You don't need most of those programs since you can easily create symmetrical patterns of holes in either a rectangular (rows and colunms) or polar (circular) pattern. For instance, for a cylinder flange, just draw one hole in the flange in the appropriate location, and then array the number of holes you want around a 360 degree pattern.

15. AutoCAD has a very useful tool called DIVIDE. If Draftsight does not have this option, they need to have it. It allow you to draw a line, and then divide it into any number of segments. This is extemely handy in laying out holes in steam chest flanges, etc. where you have placed the holes at either end of the chest, and want for instance 4 holes in between these two. Just draw a line between the centers of the two holes, and use DIVIDE with a quantity of 5 (4 holes have 5 spaces). Remember that if you use the DIVIDE command in AutoCad, it apears as if nothing happens after you finish the command. What AutoCad actually does is insert nodes (nodes are just dots) beneath the line, and you cannot see them. You can carefully select the line only and erase it to see the nodes, or turn on the snap to node option to allow the cursor to snap to the nodes. Most people keep the snap to nodes off, and so they wonder why the heck the line they are trying to draw will not snap to the node.

16. Using the F8 key toggles ORTHO mode on and off. With ORTHO on, the cursor moves only in the X or Y direction. With ORTHO off, the cursor moves in any direction.

17. A nice feature that Draftsight has is if you start a command such as CIRCLE, and pick your first point, you can select the F1 key, and a help screen will pop up and tell you all about how to draw a circle. Seems to work with any command. Close the help screen at any time and continue your command.

18. There are several ways to select an object or objects. One way is to just pick it with the cursor. Another way is to hold down the left mouse button and drag a window around the object from left to right. The objects selected when you window from left to right have to be completely within the window, or they will not be selected. If you draw the same window, but from right to left, you will see a dashed window (called the marching ants), and anything that this window touches, whether it be partially inside the window but hanging outside the window, or completely in the window will be selected. The windowing options between solid window and marching ants are extremely useful when your drawing gets complicated, and you want to select certain items and exclude others.

19. Often people select items using one of the window types, but get more objects selected than they wanted, and thus they hit the ESC (escape) key and start all over. You do not have to hit the ESC key if you have selected too many objects, just hold down the SHIFT key and pick any items you want to remove from the selection set.
Sometimes it is much easier to select a large group, and then deselect a few items with the SHIFT key.

20. When using the COPY command, you first select the object you want to copy (preferably select a grip on the object like the endpoint or midpoint), and then select the location where you want the copy to go. If you want to copy a line over to the right 2" and up 4", use COPY, select any point in the drawing, and then type in @2,4.
The @ symbol means copy the object relative to the first point you picked. I often forget the @ sign, and the copy goes flying off the screen, since it is referencing the 0,0 point in the drawing. No problem, just select UNDO.

21. This is really rule No. 1. If you complete a command, and you do not see the result you anticipated, immediately use the UNDO button. I have seen people use a command which draws an object off the screen, or draws an object exactly under another object. Since they do not see anything happen after the command is complete, then they figure the command did not work, and so they repeat the command a number of times. BIG MISTAKE. Never proceed if a command does not yield the results you are anticipating. Stop for as long as it takes, ask questions, whatever, but figure it out before you move forward with the drawing. One time at work, I saw one object that had been copied on top of itself 255 times, and then that object was copied all over the drawing. "My goodness" I exclaimed after trying to use the drawing. "I erase things and they don't go away, and this little drawing has a huge file size".

22. You can keep repeating the same command by right clicking the mouse and selecting "REPEAT COMMAND" in the pop-up dialog box. The right mouse button can also be used as ENTER. ( I have not completely figured out the mouse button options in Draftsight yet.)

More to follow:


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## modeng2000 (Oct 10, 2010)

Is there a printed book version of the instructions? Google didn't find one.

I have been using TurboCad V12 but my version is now fairly dated, no updates anymore.

John


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## John S (Oct 10, 2010)

modeng2000  said:
			
		

> Is there a printed book version of the instructions? Google didn't find one.
> 
> I have been using TurboCad V12 but my version is now fairly dated, no updates anymore.
> 
> John



http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/learning-resources/

Turbocad is now up to V17 but it's getting really bloatware now.

John S.


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

The Draftsight manual is a good one.
For the beginner, it still overloads you with too many options, many of which have no importance.

The manual says set the boundaries for the drawing. I have never set the boundaries for a drawing in 25 years of drafting. This is not necessary. I commonly copy drawings all over the screen, and boundaries would just get in the way.

Layers is another example, people get too complex with the layers, and freeze some, thaw some, lock others, and do all sorts of unnecessary things with layers. I leave all layers on at all times, and never turn off layers or freeze them. If you start turning layers off, sooner or later you will forget what is on and what is off, then you have a problem. As I said KISS.

I don't use lineweights, I use colors to designate the weight at which lines are printed. Using lineweights can get messy, and it is not immediately obvious which line is which weight.

The beginner only need be concerned with a few simple commands used to draw the basic shapes, lines, circles, arcs, etc. and needs to know how to manipulate these shapes such as copy, move, rotate, trim, array. Let the rest go for now and just start drawing some simple things.

Manuals are great, but learning is doing.


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## itowbig (Oct 10, 2010)

pat i would be interested in learning that stuff as i have absolutely no experence in cad work at all but i do enjoy seeing others post stuff that they made with it so i would like to learn . ill down load and play with this on here. just so i can at least say i tried anyway even if i cant learn it. (but i dont beleave that word (CANT)
 really exist does it)


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## modeng2000 (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks Pat, I'll just have to get stuck in and get some experience with DraftSight.
Thanks to Shred for letting us know about it.

John


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

Hey Itow-

I will give the short story on how I learned to draw. I started with a drafting class in 1978. We had drawing boards with new parallel bars, but still had a few of the old boards with the arm and "L" shaped drawing tool you see in the dinosaur photos.

My drawings looked terrible, and I was making poor grades, so I notices this little Korean guy in front of me making straight A's (I forget his name, Sun maybe). I asked him "How the heck do you do that", and he said "Don't do anything they teach you. Do it like this." and he showed me how to draw. I made an A in every drawing class I took after that. In a later class, I was drawing in lab one day, and my instructor came up behind me and noticed that I was "doing it all wrong".  Then he looked at my work, and was so impressed that he went and found several other instructors and had them come and look at the guy drawing not by the book, but doing well. True story.

When I started drafting for an engineering firm, everything was pencil and vellum, or ink and vellum (vellum is linen or cotton based paper, very durable and erasable). We drew everything by hand, and it looked great, but was very difficult to change after it was drawn.

Then came along mylar drawing film and the nice jewel-tipped pens of various widths. The mylar was heavy but waterproof, but don't erase a hole in the rough surface matt or you had to use a permapoint pen, and it looked bad.

Then we went to the "slick" system, which was a clear plastic film material, and you could lay your mylar over the floorplan which was on the slick below, and erase your drawing without erasing the floor plan. You had to have a "pin bar" at the top of the sheets, and the sheets had a series of holes along the top for the pins to go through to align the sheets. The slick system did not last long because the sheets were too difficult to stack and print, and the sheets slipped when fed throught the traditional ammonia reproduction "blueline" machine.

The basis of the slick system was transfered into the first CAD program, which was the layer system. The first 8086 and 8088 IBM and clone machines did not even have hard drives, and could be rather slow. The IBM AT machine was when my company got serious about CAD, and purchased two machines. CAD systems floundered at my company for many years since they brought in computer jockies to run the CAD machines, and the computer jockies had never learned drafting. The drawings looked like someone drew a stickman with a broken crayon.

CAD systems improved with faster computers, and when they fired the computer jocks and taught the manual draftspeople how to use the CAD programs.

The first plotters were pen plotters, and a plot typically took 45 minutes to complete, and invariably as the machine was making the last few pen strokes the pen would dry out and stop writing, thus ruining the sheet.

We were (and still are to some extent) in a Tower of Babel phase, where each draftsman is prone to come up with her/his own unique and totally incompatible scheme for setting up drawings. There were no CAD standards in the beginning, and no good CAD books either. The drawings tended to be all of the same lineweight, and the art of drawing got lost for a long time.

Then our company created a "CAD committee". I cannot think of a more counterproductive way of doing CAD than to have a committee create the standards. Three committees and three standards later, we had a big pile of cr*p, and still no good CAD setup. Committees are political things, and are about power and control, not effective CAD drawing. So each discipline basically went underground, and did what made sense, and ignored the committees and the worthless CAD manuals. The way we finally reached a department standard was when someone would leave, we would erase everything on his machine and load the standard we had developed. Eventually, everyone in the department was using the same symbols, layer names, line types, details, text sizes, etc. but it took a while, and was completely below the radar screen of our boss, who was right out of the Dilbert comic strip (but dumber than Dilbert's boss if you can imagine that).

I moved to another company and took over a department, and we had several drafting people all using different CAD setups, different symbols, etc. Nightmare. We got that straightened out, and in the process added some very good automation to the process.

The dirty little secret of CAD software is that most of the tools you want and need in a 2D CAD package were included almost from the very beginning. 99% of the tools that have been added since CAD became popular in about 1989 are designed by people who have nothing better to do other than think up new bells and whistles that we don't need, and things that can be used by the marketing people to justify you upgrading your software every year. To add injury to insult, these companies then sell you "advanced training" which is another way of saying that you pay them large amounts of money to learn usless gimmics. These companies seldom improve the core of the product, but just add "features" which are generally marketing talking point and little else.

The 1% of the features added are golden, if you know which features these are and don't fall into the trap of making your drawings senselessly complictated with large numbers of features. A test for an overly complicated drawing is to take a drawing you made in 1986 and open it using a recent CAD program. Then take a new drawing that you have recently created and do a "save-as" to AutoCAD version 2000. Can you still open and use the drawing in AutoCAD 2000 or has your drawing become boated with things you don't need. Drawings should be about clearly displaying the required information, not about computer gimmics.

I use AutoCAD 2004 for production and have not had the need to upgrade since the most modern 2D software available is still years behind what I have customized in the 2004 version. Most people do not realize how you can customize CAD, and how you can integrate spreadsheets into drawings dynamically.

The 3D CAD softwares seem to understand that the power of spreadsheets needs to be included in CAD software, but the 2D folks never seem to have understood this point, and so its just individuals who have modified and highly customized their own 2D CAD programs to not only draw lines, but to complete very complex technical calcuations, and link the data automatically into the CAD drawing.

Anyway, in my opinion, the hardest part of learning CAD was sorting out which parts are useful and critical, and which parts and features are marketing fluff.

I am writing towards the guy who has never used CAD before, or just slightly, but has done some manual drawing and sketching.
There is a tremendous amout of design power in CAD, and you can harness that power with the right guidance.

Lastly, the biggest mistake I made in trying to learn CAD was to learn a little, and then wait a week, then learn a little more and then wait a week or two. Not good.
The way to learn CAD is the same way that you learn machining. You master one skill at a time, and don't move to another skill untill you master the first one.
Print out each item that you master, and make notes about what you did. Put your printouts in a binder next to the computer and tab them, so that 6 months from now, when you want to do an array command, and have forgotten what you did, you can pull out your binder and remember quickly from your notes.

I recommend from 10 to 30 minutes of CAD practice every day. Don't practice too long or you will get frustrated, but make a little progress every day, and try and master one new item each day. At first it takes 10 minutes to draw one small item, then 5 minutes, then 1 minute, then you find yourself doing some very complex and time saving things very quickly. Expect a few disasters and setbacks. Your first drawings will be crap, but then that is also the way it is in machining.


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

LESSON NO.1: Load Draftsight and set up the toolbars, units, shortcut keys, cursor size, etc.

1. Download the program from here:
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/#vid1

2. Go through the setup proceedure, and then start the program. I think when you do your first "save", it will ask you for your email address, and they send you an email with a link that you have to click on to active the product. You don't have to do anything after you click the link, your software is ready for use.

3. Most people set up their CAD for their own personal preferences, and you get a feel for this over time. I only know my own preferences, so I list them here, not that they are perfect for everyone, but a starting point.

4. Open the program and move the cursor to the unoccupied gray area on one of the toolbars (See Attachment #1). Right click on the gray area and select "Toolbars".

5. Attachement #1 has already been set up the the toolbars that I would commonly use. Attachments #2 and #3 show the toolbars I selected from the list. Click the checkboxes for the toolbars DIMENSION, DRAW, ENTITY SNAP, INQUIRY, LAYERS, MODIFY, PROPERTIES, STANDARD, STYLES, TEXT and ZOOM, if the these toolbars are not already on. You can drag the toolbars to the top, bottom, right or left side of the screen by picking the dots on the end of the toolbar and holding down the left mouse button and dragging and dropping the toolbar where you want it. You can slide it side to side using the same method, and also stack one toolbar on the end of another, assuming they both fit on the same line.

6. Attachment #1 shows a typical screen layout that I use. The "PROPTERTIES" toolbar on the right takes up a lot of screen space, so I often toggle it off unless I need it to select an item and change its properties. For now, just leave the PROPERTIES toolbar on.


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

LESSON NO.1 (continued): 

7. When I first started using CAD, I printed a copy of the toolbars, and labeled each button, and then posted the printout next to the computer screen. Soon you will have the most comonly used tool buttons memorized. If you move the cursor over a tool button and hold the cursor still, a label will pop up, so if you don't know what the tool button is, just hover over it until a label pops up. In actual use, I seldom use the toolbuttons, but generally use the programmed shortcut keys, ie: "C" for COPY, "R" for ROTATE, etc. 

Also don't let the large number of toolbuttons intimidate you, many you never use, and many are holdovers from bygone days, such as when computers did not have mice, or when the wrong type of zoom could create a 15 minute regeneration of the drawing (we had a lot of coffee breaks in the old days, but did not get much drawing done).
Attachements #4 and #5 are the sheets I made up for a quick reference to the toolbutton names.

8. In addition to the toolbuttons, there are also a series of pull down menus at the top of the page (FILE, EDIT, VIEW, INSERT, FORMAT, DIMENSION, DRAW, MODIFY, TOOLS, WINDOW and HELP.  Many of these menus contain duplicates of the toolbuttons, and the reason for this is that initially, CAD programs were text-based, and there was no such thing as object graphics and toolbar buttons. In the old days, the entire program was operated from the pulldown menus only.

9. To set the program properties (you only have to do this setup once). Here are the items I set from the pulldown menus:

a. TOOLS, OPTIONS, SYSTEM OPTIONS, GRAPHICS AREA, POINTER SIZE, use the arrow button to make this value 100.
(Note: Making the pointer size 100 makes the cursor crosshairs span the entire screen. I find this very helpful when I am checking alignment with objects located on opposite sides of the screen. If you like a small crosshair, do not choose this step.)

b. In the same OPTIONS, SYSTEM OPTIONS dialog box, unde AUTO-SAVE & BACKUP, you may want to "Enable Auto-Save" and set a time period. If you 	are a proficient saver, you can leave off the auto save feature.

c. In the same OPTIONS, SYSTEM OPTIONS dialog box, under DRAWING SETTINGS, UNIT SYSTEM, ANGLE, use precision of 0.0000 for angle, set your units (I use inches), LENGTH TYPE comes stock set as DECIMAL which is what I use.

d. For text style, I generally use either ROMANS, or more recently ARIAL. I will have to look at that further to determine how to set that correctly for text and dimensions.

e. In the same OPTIONS, SYSTEM OPTIONS, OPEN / SAVE AS, you can select the version that the program will use as the standard file format, ie: dwg version 2000-2002, 2004-2006, 2007-2009, or 2010. I use version 2004-2006, since not everyone I know has the very latest version.

10. The program initially appears with a "HOME" box on the left side. You can close that.


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

LESSON # 2: 

(Remember, to pan around on the drawing sheet, hold down the mouse wheel and drag the drawing around where you want it. To ZOOM in and out, use the wheel on the mouse. About the only ZOOM command I use on the toolbar is ZOOM FIT, which puts the entire drawing within the boundaries of the screen.)

1. Draw one of each object from the DRAW toolbar. Attachement # 6 shows these shapes. If the command is not working as you expect, start the comand, and then hit the "F1" key. A help menu steps you though the command. Close the help menu at any time, or reduce it in size and set it off to one side as you draw. I had to use the help key for the polygon, since I have been making polygons using a six sided array.

The POLYLINE is used when you need a thick line, but I generally do not use polylines since they can be hard to control.

The SPLINE can consist of just three points, which would look like an arc, or multiple points, which is what I drew. When you finish picking the last point for the SPLINE, hit enter three times to end the command.

The RECTANGLE can be stretched in any direction, and can also be exploded using the EXPLODE command to create four separate lines.

2. Be sure to download the handbook that goes with this program.
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/learning-resources/

3. Attachment # 7 shows all of the objects that I drew after I selected them, either by picking them one at a time, or by using a window around all of them at the same time. Note that each object has blue squares at strategic locations on it, called grips (Draftsight may call these SNAPS.) For the line object, you can move the line by pressing and dragging the center grip, or make the line longer (stretch the line) by pressing and dragging a grip on either end.
The other shapes can also be manipulated using the grips. You can experiment with that.

Remember, you can try any command, and then select UNDO, and repeat that process indefinitely by trying other options.

4. Attachement # 8 shows the one of the lines has been selected, and then the pulldown box is being used to change the color of the line. Each of the object's colors were changed in this fashion (Attachement # 9).


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

LESSON # 3:

1. For lesson #3, start a new drawing, and draw a couple of lines on the drawing at a 90 degree angle to each other, and touching at the end. After you draw one line and begin the next, you will notice that as you move the cursor near a grip, it will light up, and if you pick that grip, the line will start exactly at that grip. Generally, any line that you draw after the first line should begin at a grip or some other exactly defined point.

2. Go through the MODIFY toolbar one item at a time, and try the DELETE, COPY, MIRROR, MOVE, OFFSET, (we will do the PATTERN later), ROTATE, SCALE, STRETCH, CHAMFER, FILLET, TRIM, and EXPLODE commands. (You will have to draw a rectangle to try the explode command). Note that the DELETE key on the keyboard works the same as the DELETE button on the toolbar.

3. After trying each command, you can do the UNDO command (multiple times if necesary) to get back to the original object.

Remember, you can toggle ORTHO at any time during a command to either lock the cursor movement vertically and horizontally (ON), or allow the cursor to move in any direction (OFF). You can also ZOOM in and out with the mouse wheel and pan by holding down the mouse wheel and dragging, at any time during a command.  

Note that the COPY command is a sticky one, ie: it keeps on copying as long as you keep selecting additional points.
You can copy an object by just picking any two points in space, but that gives a random spacing between the copies. A better way to copy is to pick the object, start the COPY command, select any point in the drawing, and then type in @Number X, Number Y, ENTER.

For instance, to copy two lines 6 inches apart horizontally from each other, draw the first line, select it, start the copy command, pick any point in the drawing, and then type in @6,0. Then hit ENTER.
To copy two lines 4 inches vertically from each other, do the same but use @0,4.

You can copy and move items in the positive or negative direction, and in the X axis only, the Y axis only, or move in both the X and Y axis at the same time with a command like @6,4.

Once you have made one copy of the object the exact distance away from the original object, you can use the COPY command again to easily create any number of objects spaced the same distance apart by selecting the second object, start the copy command, and then pick a grip on the first object, then pick the same grip on the second object, and pick the same grip on the third object, and keep going for as many exactly spaced copies as you need.

4. The CHAMFER command keystroke sequence is: start the CHAMFER command, type D and hit ENTER, enter a number for example 2, hit ENTER twice, select the first line to be chamfered, select the second line to be chamfered, hit ENTER.

5. For the FILLET command, the keystroke sequence is: start the FILLET command, type R and hit ENTER, enter a number for example 2, hit ENTER, select the first line, select the second line, hit ENTER.

6. For the TRIM command, I drew a line at an angle over the other two lines. There are multiple options with the TRIM command, but the sequence is you select the cutting edge first (the line that would represent the path of a cutting edge), and then hit ENTER, followed by the lines that cross the cutting edge that you want to trim off. You can select all of the lines for cutting edges, and then trim all the lines, or any combination. You can continue cutting as many lines as you wish. Use UNDO if you cut the wrong line.

(Don't you wish there was an UNDO command when you are machining and you cut a part too small?)


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 10, 2010)

If you are going to master the program, you must use it at least 10 minutes a day.
The commands soon become second nature, and you no longer have to think through every step. If you practice once a week, you will not get it.

For me learning to machine (I started seriously trying to learn to machine after finding the HMEM site about a year ago) is just like learning to draw in CAD. First you have to learn what tools you have, then you have to learn how each tool is used. Then you make a lot of mistakes and butcher your first few items. Only then can you start to get a feel for it and start to make some decent stuff.

I can absolutely relate to the frustrations of trying to learn something new like this. It takes time and persistance to get it.


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## tel (Oct 11, 2010)

This is great stuff Pat, as one old dinosaur tryin' to drag 'imself, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century, I'm finding it really useful.


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## John S (Oct 11, 2010)

Pat J  said:
			
		

> (Don't you wish there was an UNDO command when you are machining and you cut a part too small?)



It's called a welder ;D

John S.


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## ozzie46 (Oct 11, 2010)

Pat I'm enjoying this thread very much. I've struggled with cad in the past so this should help a lot.

 Thank you for the time and effort you are putting into it. 


  Ron


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## tel (Oct 11, 2010)

John Stevenson  said:
			
		

> It's called a welder ;D
> 
> John S.



 Rof} .. or a knurling tool!


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## joe d (Oct 11, 2010)

Pat

Thanks! Keep it coming, Please Thm:

Joe


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## cfellows (Oct 11, 2010)

Pat, thanks for your efforts with this. It's well written and offers insights that vendor tutorials don't typically include. It's very helpful.

Chuck


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## chucketn (Oct 11, 2010)

Anyone having trouble getting DraftSight to work? I have downloaded it twice, installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, rebooted, and it still crashes right after opening. Running on Vista. It sends an error message to Dassault each time. No information is presented to determine what is causing the problem.

Chuck in E. TN


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 11, 2010)

1. I do not use TABBED drawings, but just put all the drawings on one tab. I use tabs extensively in spreadsheets, but CAD is not spreadsheets, and just because tabs are a good idea in spreadsheets does not mean you have to use them in everything.

2. The titleblock for my original AutoCAD drawing is XREF'ed into may main drawing (XREF is external reference, ie: the titleblock is a separate drawing that shows up behind my main drawing, but is not actually part of my main drawing). The graphic scale is drawn on the titleblock. For the attached file, I inserted the titleblock into the drawing in order to make one single drawing that I can post here, but normally I would not insert the titleblock into the drawing.
When using external references, you can change something on the master XREF drawing and it automatically changes in every other drawing that references it.

3. I preface each XREF file with "XR...", ie XR-BERNAY-TITLEBLOCK.DWG. You need to be able to immediately identify which drawings are base drawings and which drawings are XREF's (Draftsight probably uses a different term than XREF.)

4. If you select any of the text in the drawing that also has a leader, you will see a grip on one side near the leader (be sure to select the text only, not the leader).
If you select the center grip on the text and drag it, the text will move and the leader will redraw itself to the new text location automatically when you stop moving the text (called an associative leader). This feature saves much time.

5. Typically, the things that are placed on the titleblock XREF sheet are things that do not change, or things you want to change on every sheet such as the Rev. date in this case. The things that change with each drawing such as the sheet number and the sheet title are actually contained in the base drawing, not in the XREF, so that I can individually modify these items for each sheet.

6. The purple line located near the top of the titleblock is in the layer "DEFPOINTS", and I use it just as a guideline since I normally punch holes in my printed sheets and place them in a 3-ring binder. You can place anything on the DEFPOINTS layer and use it for reference only, since the DEFPOINTS layer never plots. If you accidentally unintentionally place an item on the DEFPOINTS layer, you will be highly confused since you see it on your drawing, but when you plot your drawing, the item vanishes mysteriously.

7. I try and use somewhat consistent color schemes, ie: all the tap information notes are in red. Brass items are typically drawn in a brass color. Dimensions are a light blue to stand out from any other item. Base metal is generally drawn in green since it seems to stand out well on the screen. Be as consistent as possible in your color scheme. For this drawing I have totally ignored all layers except DEFPOINTS. All objects are "color-by-entity", as opposed to objects that can be "color-by-layer". When you set up your objects as "color-by-layer", you can change the color of the layer, and all of the objects on that layer change color at the same time. For very complex drawings at work, I use color-by-layer for all objects, and toggle layers on and off to be able to sort out everything. I don't think that level of complexity is necessary for an engine drawing, but if you like complexity, go for it.

8. The hatching is associative, ie: if I stretch the boundaries of a hatched object, the hatching flows with the resized object.

9. Typically I use 3-views, front, top and side. If necessary, I sometimes use a bottom, top, left and right side.

10. The isometric drawings are just 2D items. You can draw them easily if they are not too complex just by making two copies of an object, and then drawing lines between the two objects at a 45 degree angle, and then trimming out the lines that would be hidden from view. I can generally draw a simple isometric drawing faster than I can open and begin a drawing in a 3D program, and the isometrics I draw are part of the 2D drawing and can be modified in 2D, which is not the case in a 3D drawing.

11. Almost everything in this drawing was drawn by establishing an X and Y base line and then offsetting a given defined distance, and trimming. Holes are mirrored or arrayed into exact places. (Note: The isometric drawings are not exact, but just used for illustrative purposes.) The total commands used to create this entire sheet are generally LINE, CIRCLE, ELLIPSE, ARC, COPY, MOVE, ROTATE, TRIM, ARRAY (name differs in DraftSight), MIRROR, DIMENSION, TEXT, TEXT with leader. (Not many commands were used.)

12. Most lines are simple lines, no polylines or other things that can be tricky and problematic. I use an occasional SPLINE on a shape with a compound curve. I draw one side of the object with the SPLINE, and then mirror the spline, since you will never draw two splines exactly the same.

13. General text is ROMANS. Titles are ARIAL.

14. I use the graphis scale because if you do not plot the drawing at a 1:1 scale, then the drawing will be the wrong size. You should be able to lay a ruler (a scale in the drafting world) on top of your printout, and the inch marks should match the ruler exactly.

15. The light gray tick marks at the lower left of each sheet are guides for inserting additional copies of the titleblock XREF sheet.

16. I have started a few standards at the top of the sheet. I try all all times to draw to standard stock material and fastener sizes.

17. I did not use a CAD chart for this drawing since all text is 3/32" tall. I did have to size the arrowhead for the first text with leader that I drew.

18. All sheets plot at 1:1 on a 8.5" x 11" standard sheet.

19. You can also assign pen widths to colors, and save the pen information to what is called a pen table. I use pen tables for work drawings, but use all PEN2 for engine drawings just to keep it simple, and to allow me to use colors for other then pen information.
I do not use line widths to maintain simplicity, but feel free to assign line widths if you think you can control them.

20. I typically draw the front view first, then project lines up for the top view, and right for the side view. By projecting lines from the exact endpoint of the front view, you get the exact dimensions on the top and side views. Always keep the side and top views exactly lined up with the front view.

21. You can copy and recycles items in the drawing such as copying the steam chest to make the steam chest gasket, and copying the hole pattern for the top cylinder head to make the bottom cylinder head bolt pattern. You can copy the top cylinder head and modify it for the bottom cylinder head.
By copying things that have to fit together, you guarantee that the hole pattern is exactly the same for both objects.
I only created one text with leader. All other text with leader are a copy of the first one, with the color of the text and leader being changed as required.

22. Reference the cylinder on sheet B-3D. As I recall, I only drew the left half of the cylinder, and then mirrored it to the other side.
Never draw both sides of a complex piece since with each step you add to the drawing, you have the potential to introduce errors.

23. I used the MIRROR command extensively when creating this drawing since there is a great deal of symmetry in the Bernay.
I use symmetry to great advantage when drawing engines.

24.  Something that I started doing this year is copying the parts over to one side off the drawing sheets, and making blocks of each assembly.
I then assemble the blocks into a somewhat complete engine at the bottom of the page, for top, front and side views.
I have caught a number of errors this way with parts that have to align in an exact way, which is most parts.
There are some tricks to the assembly method, and I will detail those later.
Notice that if you select things in the assembly drawings, most items are blocks, and blocks can be moved as a single entity.

25. Dimensions are associative, ie: if I resize an object, the dimension updates automatically to the new size. If I move the endpoint of a dimension to a new place, the dimension automatically changes to reflect the new endpoint position.

26. I used the ARRAY function in AutoCad to make all the hex bolt heads. For Draftsight, just use the POLYGON command and input 6 sides.


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## chucketn (Oct 11, 2010)

Well, got it to stop crashing by disabling the video adaptor. Now, it stays open, but cusor is really jerky on the drawing window, but moves smoothly around the menu areas. I will try checking for uppdated driver software for the graphics chipset.
I, also learned Drafting with pencil and paper 40+ years ago. Got to use a drafting machine on my first couple of jobs. Then life interupted and I spent 22 years in the military. Now a hobby machinist and working as a computer tech, I want to merge work and play by learning CAD. 
Thanks, Pat for taking the time to write up this tutorial. I've tried Alibre, AutoCad 2000, and 2007(available through the school I work for) but had given up as there is not much "Drafting for Dummies" info available.
As soon as I get my display issues worked out, I will go through this tutorial setep by step.

Chuck in E. TN


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## bearcar1 (Oct 11, 2010)

Has anyone else that uses a MAC attempted to install the DraftSight platform on their machine? I have several times and the response I get back is that it will not run on this machine but I have no idea what the required machine specifications needed are. Does this program need Tiger to function?

BC1
Jim


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## walnotr (Oct 11, 2010)

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Has anyone else that uses a MAC attempted to install the DraftSight platform on their machine? I have several times and the response I get back is that it will not run on this machine but I have no idea what the required machine specifications needed are. Does this program need Tiger to function?
> 
> BC1
> Jim



I have Mac Book Pro and just downloaded it. It seems to be working ok but I haven't really tried it out. I am more of a 3D guy. The machine is running OSX10.6

Steve C.


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## bearcar1 (Oct 11, 2010)

Aha! Thanks Wal', I am on a Powerbook G4 only running v10.4.11. Sounds like I had best get the next version and have another go. Of course a new laptop is NOT in the near future so if it doesn't work I'll just have to schlep through with a pencil and paper some more.  :-[ :'(

BC1
Jim


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## kuhncw (Oct 12, 2010)

Hello Pat,

Nice job on the DraftSight tutorial.

You've made me curious with your comment about your drafting class and how the Korean fellow pointed you in a different direction than what was being taught in the class. Briefly what was the big difference? Thanks.

I have memories from the drafting classes I took years ago. some still bring a smile, but others don't.

Regards,

Chuck


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 12, 2010)

Hey Chuck-

That class has been a long time ago (about 1978 maybe?) or a little later.

As I recall, the Korean guy told me the following:

1. Use a thick high-grade vellum, not the cheap thin stuff.
2. Start with a base line, and draw it in with a heavy wide pencil, and grind it into the paper by going over and over it many times.
3. Always make your lines darker than they need to be, since when you clean the drawing with the cleaning powder, all the lines get lighter.
4. Go over the line several or in some cases many times when you draw it. Never draw a line with a single stroke as the books tell you to do. A single stroke line gets washed out when you clean the drawing.
5. Rotate your pencil as you drew to keep the line width consistent, otherwise the line would start out thin, and end up wide, since the lead would wear off as you drew.
6. Don't use cheap pencil lead.
7. He showed me his angles that had the recessed edge which allowed you to do ink work without having to worry about the ink getting drawn under the edge of the angle.
8. He also had a nice flexible curve drawing device that was much easier to use than the old curve templates.
9. Seems like he had some nice ink pens too.

Those were the things that stand out in my memory. Simple stuff really, but not what the books recommended.

The other thing that I did was to draw on the bottom of the parallel bar, not the top as the book recommended. Drawing on the top of the parallel bar puts your wrist in a bind since you have to reach over the bar and then down to the paper, and it is awkward to control the pen or pencil if you cannot control your wrist. I always drew with my wrist planted on a scrap piece of vellum (to prevent smudging) below the parallel bar, and this allowed me to control the pencil pressure and the angle of the pencil, and allowed me to see where the pencil point was at all times. The line you draw depends on where exactly the pencil lead touches the parallel bar, and how you control the angle of the pencil once you touch the bar.

I think I remember him talking about being systematic with the way you draw, and doing one view at a time completely and correctly, working from bottom to top.

It was basic stuff, but it did not occur to me at age 18 to do any of the above until he pointed this things out, and they made a big difference in my drawings.

The heavy vellum allowed you to draw very dark lines without cutting through the paper. The thin vellem had a bad habit of puncturing and tearing too easily.

I still recall my German instructor (Bruno) who had to have been an ex field marshall or something. He was as straight laced as they come. His favorite expression was regarding guidelines and using a "seeeks aaaaach shaaaappp" (six H sharp) pencil (in his heavy German accent). He would march around the room inspecting everyone's pencils and lead, and heaven help the poor sucker that did not have his 6H sharp clearly marked in a separate lead holder from his 2H, or the guy who did not have all of his pencils and templates arranged neatly to one side, complete with the cleaning pad.


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## kf2qd (Oct 13, 2010)

Sounds like the instructor thought the process was more important than the product. 

When i was pencil drafting I used HB almost exclusively. Hard enough to hold a point, soft enough to leave a good line. Learned all about the various line widths in drawing class, on the job all they really wanted was a blueprint so they could make a part and get another machine out the door. If you could get a good print off teh drawing, then the drawi8ng was good. And then the drawing was stuffed in some drawer and the blueprint was trash...


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 13, 2010)

I needed to learn the process as much as I needed to learn how to draw.
I was very disorganized, and did not have a methodical approach at all, so from that standpoint the instructor was good.

It was like one of those sayings "I really appreciate your instructing attitude, but not nearly as much as I resent it".

I never liked the iron fist guys, but he was ok.

Some of the most impressive drawings I have seen were created by Roebling for the Brooklyn Bridge. There was an article about a guy who in recent years was working in a wood shop in New York, and came across the original drawings by Roebling for the Brooklyn Bridge. They were old and stained, but he appreciated the quality and significance of them. His boss told him to toss all the old drawings, but he kept them until a museum could display them.

Many were in color, and they are works of art.

Here is a link to a site I found. I don't know how to access the drawings.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/collections/collections_brooklynbridge.shtml

The article was by David McCullough, "The Treasure from the Carpentry Shop: The Extraordinary Drawings of the Brooklyn Bridge," American Heritage 31 (December 1979): 19-29.

I found the American Heritage site, but can't get the article to come up.


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## minerva (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi Pat
just reading through your posts brought the memories flooding back. in the 50's The conventional draughting teachings at technical school for G.C.E and then into the world of the drawing office training school under the the eagle eye of a 75 year old Mr Black (who I suspect must have taught your Korean gentleman) He advocated indeed insisted on most of the techniques you mention and yet on moving on to the drawing office proper we were promptly told to forget all we had been taught as he (Mr Black) was regarded as somewhat as an eccentric. His unerring accuracy with a wooden blackboard rubber guaranteed your attention and I must say I learned a lot and remember those day with pleasure.
I have duly downloaded the draftsite software and after but two days playing lost the cursor! which as you can imagine makes life awkward. The community web site is aware of this problem and provides a workaround if anyone experiences the same annoying problem.
Please keep up the good work as i would so much like to be able to use my computer to carry out my 2D drawing needs and relegate my double elephant drawing board + accoutrement to the skip 
kind regards
Terry


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 14, 2010)

Terry-

Thanks for the feedback.

As I look at the various options for CAD drafting (2D, 3D), some of the things that keep coming up are:

1. 2D CAD is a very economical way to draw and design engines, if the engine is not too complex, and if you don't need to make major changes after most of the design is complete. For the price of a good 3D package, I could buy a room full of some pretty good machines to make models.

2. I don't miss having to store all the paper drawings, and having to make room for a 36" x 60" drawing board. The PDF scans, and the DWG files are easy to transport on a flash drive. I can carry a laptop wherever I go, and both read the old books, and design with CAD wherever I am. 

3. The learning curve is quite steep for me trying to go to 3D, and at this point, any time saved by using 3D is lost in the 3D training.

4. The 2D drawings can be set up exactly like a drawing board, and that is appealing to those of us who came up using the manual method.

2D is a powerful tool, and I am not sure how many use all the power that is in 2D CAD. If the manufacturer's would add the parametric features from 3D into 2D CAD, there would not be as much need for 3D, since the real power is in the parametric data. The pretty renderings are just window dressing. The animations are powerful tools in 3D since you can use interference detection, but you can animate in 2D also.

As a matter of fact, there has been a great deal of power in 2D CAD, and most are not aware of it, but you can dynamically link some 2D CAD programs to Excel (tm) spreadsheets, and if you draw an object in CAD, you can link the parameters to the cells in the spreadsheet. Changing the spreadsheet values automatically changes the size of the object in the drawing. By using a spreadsheet, you can introduce the extensive mathematical tools from Excel into CAD, and Excel can be easily programmed in Visual Basic for Applications (now being phased out by MS) to do almost any type of complex programming calculation.

I will attach a 2D file that was used to create an animation.
I drew a paddlewheel oscillating engine from an old engraving, and then created a block, and copied the block 16 times, rotating the block 22.5 degrees for each copy. I plotting each of the 16 drawings to a JPG/GIF format, and used the free shareware program Polyview to create an animated GIF, which can also be used to check for interferences as the parts rotate.





View attachment Web-Oscillator-0a1.dwg


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## rleete (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry, but some of your assertions are inaccurate.

#1: Yes, 3D can be expensive, but in some cases it's worth it. For just a hobby? No way. But I use it for _everything_. I saved thousands making my own drawings for the front porch addition, which would have paid for the package right there. The fact that I got it for free from work is a major plus, but there are much cheaper packages out there than the ones I use.

#2: 3D drawings take up no more physical space than 2D drawings. One 2 Gb thumb drive holds all the CAD I have done for personal stuff over the past several years.

#3: I could have just about anyone up to speed in 3D in less than 3 weeks, and I'm talking in an engineering environment. For home use, and since you already know 2D, I could have you working in 3D in a matter of hours. You'd not be very fast or proficient, but you'd be making parts.

#4: Drawings in 3D look exactly like what you'd expect a drawing to look like in any engineering dept. Multiple views, orthographic projections, etc. The difference is, in 3D it does most of it for you. If you make your models correctly, the dimensions are already there, and pop in automatically. Very little additional work is needed to make a decent drawing.


Worth the cost? That's a personal decision, but I'd say not for most people. But there are lots of choices out there. I'd personally never go back to 2D unless I absolutely had no chioce.

Also, the linked spreadsheet thing is _built in_ to most 3D programs.


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## minerva (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi Pat
The example in your last but one post has set me thinking at a rather basic level and the answer to two basic questions would help clarify things.

1.) In the modern world of manufacturing/ production is it still common practice for each project  to have a series of 2D drawings, delineating ,component detail, Layout, assembly etc. or has this model been superseded by 3D parametric models which may be animated or no as the need be felt?

2.) In the 3D world as I understand it the word "Parametric" enables a drawing entity to be defined and dimensions allocated at
  the time of its creation. 
  These dimensions may be subsequently changed at any point in time thereafter, the effects of such changes are reflected 
  throughout the model. Is this the same effect that you refer to when using a spread sheet with a 2D drawing?

As you may gather like Tel I am a bit of a Dinosaur still following the old tried, tested and understood ways (I still use a slide rule much to the amusement of my grandson) and any project follows a similar pattern, Idea, Sketch, Detailed drawing, before any work is carried out, but having so said I have grown up with computers, they hold no great fears for me and in recent times I have tried most of the freebie 2D packages. More recently my wife bought me Alibre for my birthday and this in common with most of the aforementioned 2D packages falls down in the tuition dept. Having so said I have had some success and will stick at it as the package is obviously very powerful (once mastered) Your comments on practice are gratefully received and it is to be hoped that "Patience is "still" a virtue"
regards 
Terry


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## aussie bruce (Oct 14, 2010)

minerva  said:
			
		

> Hi Pat
> 1.) In the modern world of manufacturing/ production is it still common practice for each project to have a series of 2D drawings, delineating ,component detail, Layout, assembly etc. or has this model been superseded by 3D parametric models which may be animated or no as the need be felt?
> 
> 2.) In the 3D world as I understand it the word "Parametric" enables a drawing entity to be defined and dimensions allocated at
> ...



1 No for example in solidworks i use Pack and Go to export the complete model direct to my supplier who then up loads my model items complete and then does the conversion to tool paths for CNC milling turning engraving the works. this example works fine when for example all faces are to be ground / fine machined and all tolerance are generally +/- 0.02 mm 

The exception to this is when i need to add additional info for example i am using a supplier that has a plasma / CNC mill drill machine 12 meters long x 4 meters wide i need plates that are a combination of milled holes milled datum edges drilled and tapped mounting holes plasma cut details and then wash ground. This is where i will provide additional info ie a PDF Drawing in 2 D

2 Yes all modelling software on the market today 2 d and 3 d has some style of spread sheet embedded in the background ie change data or scale easily from your design.
for example i will model an item and insert a design table for example custom tube lengths from that basic model i have the option of referencing any in a model.
But with the toolbox open i dont need to model bearings gears or fastners i just pick and insert the item into my assembly.

Bruce


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## JorgensenSteam (Oct 14, 2010)

Terry-

There is a parallel thread going on about 3D drafting software, and it discusses which 3D programs are preferred by model builders.

( I appologize for the length of this, but I am still trying to map it all out myself.)

From what I am hearing, some of the big (big = expensive) players are AutoDesk Inventor, Solidworks and ProEngineer. Many appear to be using the reasonably priced Alibre with good results.

Different packages can suit different needs, and many modelers are quite happy (from feedback on this forum) with Alibre in its various packages from about $100 to $1,000.

The type of 3D program that you need depends on what you intend to do with it, but for me, I need several things as follows:

1. I need a software package that I can use for both hobby work, and potentially for future design projects at work. I have found that when you are trying to produce production drawings at work, generally the more expensive program is the least expensive in the long term. In my opinion, and the opinion of a few who do 3D for a living, a good $4,000 3D CAD program will more than pay for itself very quickly, and a poor 3D program can cause problems if it does not perform as expected.

2. I need to import a large quantity of complex 2D drawings and convert them to 3D, and I need an import function that works extremely well, without a hitch. I am getting reports that Solidworks wins this category and is by far the best in this respect.

3. I need to be able to see all the grips on the surfaces at all times, and I have not figured out how to do this in my inexpensive 3D program. I use grips constantly, so I have a hard time if they are not present in the expected places such as midpoint, endpoint, quadrant, etc.

4. I need a program that can generate very clear 2D drawings from the 3D model without any problems with dimensions not aligning correctly or overlapping. The tutorial videos I saw for Solidworks yesterday show its dimensions automatically moving themselves and re-aligning themselves as the model changes.

5. For modeling work, I need to be able to easily associate parts in a 2D sketch such as piston, piston rod, crankshaft, valve, valve rod, with each other as far as their movement, and then quickly rotate these parts in the 2D view to check for clearances, collisions, alignment problems, etc. Best I can tell, after watching a tutorial for Solidworks, you can just pick the parts in sketch view (2D view), and use a fan belt or chain command to make these items quickly revolve. Very powerful stuff.


Using 3D to draw models has been a radical departure from 2D drafting for me, and the reason for that is that 3D drafting is really not drafting, but building a database that defines and links the parameters of your model (thus the word "parametric modeling") in a dynamic and interactive fashion.

For me, trying to change from 2D to 3D has required a significant amount of time, as well as a total change in the design/drawing thought process, and the whole design approach in general. Much of my 3D training time seems to be wasted trying to do simple things that should function well and be intuitive, but are neither.

Learning 3D has been harder for me than learning 2D, because 2D is just like drawing by hand, and 3D is like something altogether different.

The capabilities that a 3D modeling program can provide are very extensive, depending on the exact options that you purchase with your package. The more options you purchase, the more the software will cost.

3D programs can generally produce the following items, and it is these features that make 3D so desirable by many, if you want or need the added complexity of 3D. It should be noted that some modelers will never need the complexity of 3D, and can put a 2D program to good (and free) use.


The benefits of 3D parametric modeling over 2D drafting are as follows:

1. The 2D drawing is a collection of non-associated entities such as lines, circles, rectangles, etc. Changing any entity has no effect on any other entity. 

2. 3D modeling uses a database to define a three dimensional model, and once the model has been constructed, then any change to a part of the model can be automatically reflected though the entire model. The entire 3D model includes the 2D drawings that the 3D program automatically generates, plus any isometric views that the program has generated, plus the bill of materials that the 3D program generates. All these items are part of the database, and changing any part of the database updates all other related parts, sizes, views, shapes, dimensions, quantities, etc.

3. You do not have to draw 2D drawings in a 3D program, since those are automatically generated from the 3D model.

4. You can very easily and quickly create a sectional view through any part of the 3D model, and like everything else in the database, any changes are automatically updated in all the sectional views.

5. You can apply mathematical formulas to relationships between the dimensions of parts. For instance, you can define that the connecting rod length is 2.5 times the piston stroke. Any changes to the piston stroke automatically change the connecting rod length. This is the same method that is used in spreadsheets, where you can define cell A1 to be cell A2 times 2.5.

6. One of the downsides of using 3D CAD is that you cannot leave any object open, no matter how small a gap the opening may be. Some 3D programs are extremely intolerant of very small drawing errors, and the auto-correction features may or may not solve the problem. Without the 3D program accepting the shape as a closed figure, you can do nothing.

7. 3D programs can generate photorealistic renderings of 3D views of models. Sometimes it is hard to tell what is a photo, and what is a 3D rendering. This is just window dressing, and has nothing to do with whether or not you can produce a usable set of 2D drawings to build from.

A modeler like myself needs to have 2D drawings with dimensions in order to start cutting metal.

The 3D views are very helpful in understanding complex relationships between parts, and you can make some surfaces translucent so that you can see though the cylinder wall of an engine, and see the piston and rod inside the engine.

3D models can be rotated into any orientation, so the effect is like holding the engine in your hand, and being able to spin it around to any view, and zoom the view in or out. Being able to spin a model around the X, Y or Z axis is extremely useful from a standpint of visually understanding the model and its parts.

8. Once the model is complete, some 3D programs can create an exploded isometric view of the model, complete with a label on each part that relates to an item in the automatically generated bill of materials. Solidworks seems (among many superb features of Solidworks) to be especially adept at dragging the exploded view around to adjust it as needed.

9. One of the big features of 3D (and also sometimes an expensive addition) is the kinematics part of the program, which is were you can actually operate the machine and see all the parts in full motion as you spin the model to any view. When you add the ability to make any part translucent so that you can see through it, then you can see inside of the engine while it is running and see valve gear, valves, pistons, crank, etc. in motion.

There are a large number of example engines and tutorials for a variety of 3D programs on YouTube. By closely studying the tutorials, you can get a better idea of what the programs will do, and whether or not they will be useful for your specific application and budget.


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## minerva (Oct 15, 2010)

Bruce , Pat
many thanks for going to so much trouble with the explanations. Life in the world of manufacturing has obviously changed beyond recognition since my formative involvement all those years ago!
Having so said the old fashioned way still work (for me) in the home shop and forays into the wonderful world of 2D/3D will provide further challenges to the thinking processes as well as facilitating whatever the current project happens to be. I will persevere with the tutorials on both draftsite and Alibre in the hopes that both will become useable tools in the box as it were.
Once again, Many thanks for your effort
regards
Terry


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## SignalFailure (Nov 18, 2010)

For information...

The latest Beta fails virus scanning on ClamWin:

C:\Documents and Settings\Paul\Desktop\DraftSight.exe: Heuristic.Trojan.SusPacked.TMS FOUND


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## SignalFailure (Nov 18, 2010)

Ignore that, it's a false positive.


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## kvom (Nov 19, 2010)

I have found this thread to be very interesting, and I may try DraftSight myself.

Up until a year ago, my only experience with drafting dated to a middle school class in the 60s, where I had to draw a 3-view u-joint trunion using a drafting table.  

Then I started a CNC class where we needed to use MasterCam to draw parts and generate g-code. Here we were taking existing 2D drawings and duplicating them. I found it quite intuitive to learn a basic set of operations needed to produce these drawings. Subsequently I acquired some other 2D CAD programs for home use, and while the keystrokes/menus are different, the basic operations seem to be universal. That said, some programs are more intuitive than others, so potentially DraftSight may be the best.

Now I am not trying to create design drawings or draw parts, but just to take published plans and create DXF files for CNC. Doing this also allows me to verify the dimensions.

Currently I am taking a self-study course in blueprint reading, and I have found this valuable in understanding parts of machine drawings that I didn't know before. I am using the book, "Blueprint Reading for the Machine Trades" by Russ Schultz. I found a used copy online for about $4, and I can recommend it to those of us who are relatively new to CAD.


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## JorgensenSteam (Nov 19, 2010)

2D/3D CAD update:

I have used 2D CAD programs for 22 years, and learned manual drawing on the drafting board in school, and as stated before, 2D CAD is very much like having a drafting board on the computer screen.
The toolbar buttons are similar to the old circle, ellipse and triangle templates/tools we used.

I am new to 3D and still struggling greatly with it.
I have yet to produce any significant 3D drawing.

As I try and come to grips with 3D, I have to ask myself what are the differences between 2D and 3D, and why does 3D feel totally different and strange, unlike 2D.

Ultimately the things that I use to build engines in 3D are the same thing I use to build engines in 2D, which is the 2D drawings of front, top, and left side views.

I will use Brian Rupnow as a case study (sorry Brian, but you are one of the HMEM folks who use 3D all the time). You can see that many of Brian's ideas begin as pencil sketches, and then get input into the computer via 3D models, only to be converted back to 2D construction drawings. So it begs the questions, what is so good about the 3D process since it ultimately produces the same old 2D drawings that the 2D program makes, and who should and should not use 3D programs.

Drawing in 2D for me is a "what you see is what you get" type affair. You hold a part in front view and just draw the lines you see. Same for the right side, top, bottom views, etc.

Drawing in 3D is much more like throwing a large chunk of modeling clay up on the tabletop, perhaps in a large rectangular block. As you need features, you either cut things out of the block, or add chunks of clay onto the part.

As you are working on the chunk of clay, you are rotating it around in 3 dimensions, and can look at it from any angle. The trick in 3D when you modify the part is knowing which side to spin the model to, and how to attach and size a part. You can attach a piece to your part not only in the X and Y direction, but in the Z direction also.

The Z component is what gets things confused, since you never have to deal with that in 2D.

Many modelers would benefit from skipping the 3D altogether and just drawing in 2D like the good old days. If you just need some sketches, and don't want to save the world, just draw in 2D.

For the Brian Rupnow's of the world, Brian uses 3D at work anyway, so he already has the knowledge base of the program, and can take advantage of what 3D can do for you.

I have struggled to put into plain words what 3D can do for you.
As I understand it now (which is not too good), in 3D, you sculpt this block of clay, cutting holes here, extruding out flanges and parts here and there, and then having made this 3D thing, you can almost immediately and very easily make the top, bottom, right, left, and isometric views of the object, as well as a section at any point or angle (at least in Solidworks it is easy to do this, I am not sure about other programs). You just sort of point at the 3D model, and then drag and drop windows for the front, top, and side views, sections, etc. and the views just appear like magic.

One big obstacle I have in converting to the 3D mentality is that I tend to think of an engine as one entity, and if you use 3D, you really must draw one part at a time, and then assemble the parts into a complete assembly. When you draw in 2D, you can draw a complete part, or a piece of a part, or half a part, and half of another part, the program does not care.

For 3D, you must draw one shape at a time, and it must be a complete and closed shape. 3D is totally intolerant of any open ends or partial pieces, which is frustrating, since in 2D I often rough out the end of say a connecting rod, and then draw the other end later when I get to the other end of the geometry for that piece.

Changing the dimensions of a part in 2D is simple, you just stretch the part to whatever size you want, and the dimension updates automatically. The downside is that if you change a dimension in 2D on the front view, the other views do not update to that dimension, so you have to change the same dimension in every view.

For 3D, to change a part dimension, you have to know exactly which piece you want to change, and figure out how to access that exact piece in 3-dimension. The good thing is that once you change a part size in 3D, all of the 2D views and sections update automatically.

The other thing I have noticed about learning 3D CAD is that it tends to be so different from 2D that you really need a video tutorial for much of it. 2D is easy to learn just by reading a book. The good thing is there are a number of good video tutorials for 3D on YouTube, as well as at some of the software sites.

I get the same feeling trying to learn 3D that I got when I first went from driving a car to flying a twin beech. In a car, you just turn the wheel whichever way you want to go, and it goes left or right, two pedals, go and stop. A car has a few simple instruments, a speedometer, gas gauge, sometimes a tach. Flying a twin beech with the engines low on the wing and a neutral center of gravity is tricky. It feels like you are driving a car and your steering wheel comes off in your hands, and is attached to the steering column only by a thin rubber band. The steering wheel moves in any direction and rotates as it is moving, and to complicate matters, the two pedals need to be used in conjunction with and coordinated with turning the wheel, but not when the wheel is pushed only forward or back. An aircraft has lots of instruments, and so you get distracted trying to read the instruments, and also to look out the window and watch where you are going.

Gets confusing real fast, and you go into information overload quickly, which is where I am on 3D right now. I have started using Solidworks 2011, and although it is not perfect (I understand the files are not backwards compatible), it is an impressive package. Steep learning curve, but at least it is a stable program and like my poor and abused Grizzly lathe, somewhat tolerant of a new user's blunders. The full Solidworks package does give one the feel of stepping into the cockpit of a modern jetliner. You can't help but gasp at the number of gauges, levers and actuators in a modern jet. Using all the power of all the add-ons in a full blown 3D package (I have the simple basic and least expensive package which does not do simulations, but does do animations) makes me wonder "what the heck have I stepped in, holy cow".

I have newfound respect for the guys who designed the moon rockets and other complex things using a pencil and paper, and who had to do all the 3D visualization in their head.
The only other thing that comes to mind is that CAD systems (2D or 3D) are only a tool, and the real power is in the mind of the person using the software. If you can't conceptualize what you want to try and make in your head, then you can't draw it no matter how powerful the CAD program is. The real power is in the mind of the model builder, but using 2D CAD is akin to having a lathe and knowing how to use it. Using 3D CAD is akin to having a good CNC machine.


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## cl350rr (Nov 19, 2010)

I started drafting when autocad 14 was being taught and the school I went to had just dropped it's last pencil drafting course. 

3d drafting is alot like machining in space: if you create a cylinder in space you have a crude piston. make another cylinder the size of a piston pin and then remove it from the first cylinder and you have a piston pin bore. the steps to creating the 3d object are very similar to the machineing steps you would use to create the real object.

the reason I like 3d drafting is that once the opject is correct, all of the side, top, end and orthographic views can be instantly created from the 3d object. if the object is drawn correctly all of the views will be drawn correctly.

also the 3d object can be rotated in space to see any angle which helps visualize how parts fit together.

$.02

Randy


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## kvom (Nov 19, 2010)

I did download DraftSight today and spent the afternoon in learning mode. I was able to duplicate several of Kozo's A3 part drawings, save them as DXF, and then load them into my CAM program. I also watched some of the tutorials on the website. Pretty impressive for a free program.

As for 3D vs. 2D, here's my take.

3d Cad is superior for designing a machine, or for drawing from an existing part. Even when the result is 2D drawings (such as what Brian gives us), having the orthogonal picture alongside is a great plus. However, that assumes that you want to spend the money for the software.

In my case, I have only built stuff from 2D drawings. Since I have a CNC mill, I want to get 2D drawings in DXF/DWG format for input into the CAM program. To do this, I just need a good 2D CAD program to copy the lines from the printed plans and generate the files. 3D would be overkill in most cases. It's true that printed plans often have errors, and redrawing in 3D can detect these.

So for me, Draftsight is superior in most respects to the CAD programs I've been using before at home, so I'll likely adopt it (unless I find a free copy of MasterCam ;D). Thanks for pointing this product out, Paul.


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## putputman (Nov 19, 2010)

I have been using CADRA from ADRA for many years. The program was given to me by a former employer so I could do some consulting with them after I retired. My consulting days are over so I have been using the program for my model building. I am happy with the program and am licensed for it until 2020. There are three problems I have with the program.

1) It is a DOS based program and will not work on Windows XP or newer.

2) It requires a "dongle" be plugged into the printer port in order for the program to be used. If that dongle ever gets damaged or lost, the program is gone.

3) ADRA no longer supports the program in any way.

For this reason I have a computer with Windows 2000 in the shop with CADRA loaded. The computer is not nor will ever be connected to the Internet for fear of any chance of contamination that could damage the program. I have the program loaded on my lap top, with Windows 2000, but I have to transfer the dongle each time I use it. This is where damage or loss could get involved.

Today I decided I would try DraftSight, so I downloaded it and installed it. When I went to run the program, the program screen came up and the drawing screen had the download screen on it in an upside down and backwards screen. Within about 5 seconds, it shutdown my computer and rebooted it. 

I tried to run the program again and the same thing happened. I then un-installed the program and downloaded it again, thinking that something might have happened during the download. I installed it again and tried to run the program. The same thing happened again this time.

Has this happened to anyone else? Any suggestions as to what I should try next?

This is the way it looks just before it shuts the computer down.


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## kvom (Nov 19, 2010)

It is classified as a Beta release. I'm running Win7. If you're still on W2000 that might be the issue? or the graphics card might be causing issues.


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## putputman (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear on my info. I am running XP on the house computer where I am trying to load. I am on DSL which isn't very fast.

I believe Pat J said he was using XP and it is working fine for him.


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## mh121 (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks for all the tutorials, I am a complete numpty when it comes to CAD, give me a pencil and a cigarette packet any day!!. I have been trying extra hard and have managed to get a few of the basic parts for the pump I am doing as cad drawings. 
The problem I cannot grasp is all the parts are now on one sheet. Should I be doing each part as a seperate drawing? and how do you get the outline of the drawing sheet for A4 with the title block and parts to look the right size when printed?

cheers,
MartinH


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## JorgensenSteam (Nov 28, 2010)

Martin-

For a small engine, I generally draw one part, or a related group of parts on one 8.5"x11" sheet, and use multiple sheets in a single drawing file. Below is an overall screen shot of my preliminary Bernay drawings, and an enlarged shot of part of that same screen.

I use 3/32" (0.09375") tall text for most items on the page, with the sheet titles about three times larger than 3/32".

I plot each 8.5"x11" drawing at a ratio of 1:1, ie: a line drawn one inch long in cad prints out 1" long on paper. You can verify the sheet has been printed the correct size by laying a ruler on top of the printed graphic scale that is located on the left of each sheet. The inch marks on the ruler should line up with the inch marks on the printed graphic scale exactly.

You can also download the Bernay drawing file attached to the Oct. 11 post and open it with Draftsight to see how my titleblocks are set up on a typical model engine sheet. You can actually copy the titleblock and graphic scale from my Bernay drawing to your drawing and edit and reuse those items if you wish to save time.

To draw your own titleblock, just draw a rectangle in your drawing that is 8.5"x11" in size (assuming you want a standard A4 size sheet). You can copy your 8.5"x11" rectangle around in your drawing, and add any text you want to it.

I hope this clarifies your question. If not, let me know and I will try to come up with a better answer.



P.S. - Should you need a drawing larger than 8.5"x11", you will need a larger titleblock with larger text, and I will need to add a separate explanation for that.


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## mh121 (Nov 29, 2010)

Thats excellent thanks Pat. Will give it a go later this evening and let you know how I get on. I am starting to enjoy using this program, think it`s because someone has given pointers on the way to go with it , rather than fumbling around getting nowhere fast.

Cheers,
MartinH


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## JorgensenSteam (Nov 29, 2010)

Martin-

Glad to help. As I stated before, just a few years ago I paid $750.00 for a program that was almost identical to Draftsight (an Autocad clone program).
Draftsight is a very solid tool, and the fact that it is free makes it an unbeatable value.

Of course some day they would like you to upgrade to their 3D program Solidworks, and so they are paving the path, but for so many casual users, Draftsight will be an excellent and useful tool, and will completely suffice as a drafting tool for the modeling hobbyist.


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## kvom (Dec 4, 2010)

I've been drawing parts for my A3 build in DS for the past couple of weeks, and find it pretty easy to use. There are features I like better in mastercam, but for free who's complaining.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jan 18, 2011)

I had a question about how to create circular pattens of holes, for instance for a cylinder head bolt pattern.

*Photo No.1:*
Draw a vertical and horizintal line to establish a centerpoint for the cylinder.
Draw a circle with a radius equal to the bolt pattern you want.

At the intersection of the vertical line and the circle, draw a small circle the size of the tap or clearance hole that you want to create a pattern from.
If you are drawing the cylinder, use the tap hole size.
If you are drawing the cylinder head, use the clearance hole size.

*Photo No.2:*
You can select the tap or clearance hole first, or start the "PATTERN" command, and then use the "Select Entities" button to select the tap or clearance hole.
Start the "PATTERN" command, enter the number of holes that you want, ie: 4,5,6, etc. under "Total Number".

Select "CIRCULAR" pattern type.

Select the "Axis Point" button, and pick the intersection of your vertical and horizontal lines.

If you have not already selected the tap or clearance hole, use the "Select Entitiy" button to pick it.

Hit "OK".

If you do not get the pattern you want, select the "UNDO" command from the pulldown menu "EDIT".


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## Twmaster (Apr 11, 2011)

This was exactly what I needed to draw two sets of holes spaced 120 degrees around a circle! Perfect! 

Now, how (or can) I delete the circle I drew to lay out the bolt holes?


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## JorgensenSteam (Apr 11, 2011)

To delete an object, select it, and then use the "delete" key on the keyboard.

I generally hit the "Esc" key several times before I pick and delete an object so that I don't accidentally have two or more items picked at the same time.


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## Twmaster (Apr 11, 2011)

Yea, I figured it out. It was not letting me get to the point where I could click on and select it.

After a few choice words I managed to get my drawing done. It did not turn out too bad. 

I still have a lot to learn about Draftsight. But so far it's not made me mad enough to delete it. QCAD got deleted....


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## Twmaster (Apr 12, 2011)

I've been working with Draftsight again today. I'm starting to get the hang of things. This is pretty nice stuff. And it also runs on my Linux workstation!


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## Mayhem (Dec 15, 2011)

Hello BigOnSteam,

I have just read this entire thread and I am extremely grateful for the time and effort you have put into posting the material. 

This is my first attempt at using any CAD software and I have found this to be very useful, have picked up some info that I did not do so in completing the exercises in the 'Getting Started with DraftSight' manual offered by DS. I note an earlier link to what was described as a user manual but it links to their resources page and I couldn't see anything other that that which I already have. Is it the same thing or have they perhaps changed their page?

I am curious as to whether you are planning on posting any more lessons or practical pointers. 

Thanks,
Mayhem


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 15, 2011)

Mayhem-

Welcome to HMEM, glad to have you here with this great bunch of guys.

I struggled for a long time to learn 2D CAD, and had some help on it, but found the standard manuals were not very good for drawing engines.

I have recently transitioned into 3D, and that again was a very difficult process for me, but I have finally mastered it.

I like 3D so much that I don't do much 2D any more, but for many 2D will be perfectly useful, and there is something to be said for using 2D for the simplier designs.

I can support anyone here for as long as necessary who is trying to learn 2D or 3D. I got some good support on HMEM when I was learning 3D and I have always appreciated that, not to mention the machining support and support in general that I have received here.

I will see where I left off on the 2D stuff and see if I can't continue with some useful ideas.

Pat J


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## Mayhem (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks Pat,

I would appreciate that if you have the time to do so. 2D will more than meet my needs. Creating title blocks is something I would like to learn more about (i.e. how to create them).


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## JorgensenSteam (Dec 16, 2011)

Learning 3D modeling has been a long journey for me, and while 3D is not for everyone, if you happen to have a spare year or so to learn 3D, you can make some cool models with it.

As far as titleblocks, I don't like the stock titleblocks that come with many drawing/modeling programs, and I find that they are overloaded with too much information.

You can look at the simple titleblocks I used for the Bernay engine in the Downloads section of this forum, which I think is a dwg file (or maybe a PDF, I can't remember).

I starte by just drawing a rectangle, either in portrait or landscape mode, the exact size of the sheet, say 17" wide and 11" tall, then offset that inwards maybe 0.75" for a new rectangle. The outer rectangle I put on the defpoints layer so that it does not print. Generally you don't want to draw too close to the edges of the paper since printers often clip off 1/4" or so at the edge.

I just use the offset and trim command to make a few boxes for the sheet number, title, date, etc. Nothing fancy, less is more in my opinion.

Pat J


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## Mayhem (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Pat,

I downloaded the two Bernay Steam Engine CAD Drawings but they return a damaged file error in Acrobat. Never mind, I'll just jump right in and see what I can do. After all, what is the worst that can happen - a deleted file and a second try!


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## FanParts (Mar 5, 2013)

If you use Draftsight, you will be interested by the new cad parts library powered by TraceParts that give an access to millions of free 2D drawings! 
http://www.tracepartsonline.net/ws/draftsight


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## dman (Mar 9, 2013)

i just noticed they have a linux install (great for linux cnc) so i installed it on my home pc. oddly as a plus i didn't need to do anything weird, the ubuntu .deb file worked without issue on my debian install. i thought it was odd they had .deb packages but non labeled for debian use but it works. seems good. i like it.


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## mikeb185 (Apr 20, 2013)

can anyone tell me how to draw a precise rectangle? i want an 8mm x 13.5mm 1 and when i type 8,13.5 its coming out huge! cheers and hope you can help


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## kvom (Apr 20, 2013)

mikeb185 said:


> can anyone tell me how to draw a precise rectangle? i want an 8mm x 13.5mm 1 and when i type 8,13.5 its coming out huge! cheers and hope you can help



Hopefully you set your units to metric.  You can verify the size by drawing a linear dimension on each side.

To draw it with the rectangle tool you need to type the coords of two opposite corners, e.g. 0,0 then 8,13.5


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## mikeb185 (Apr 20, 2013)

sorry to sound dumb but how do i know what the co ords are? there isnt any measurements etc on the page? cheers


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## johnmcc69 (Apr 20, 2013)

The co-ords are "invisible" locations on your screen. After you enter your 1st corner location X & Y & enter, if you move your mouse, you should see a rectangle drag across the screen. Enter your second corner location X & Y location, & you're done.

John


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## mikeb185 (Apr 20, 2013)

thanks for your help, i can draw a rectangle but im not grasping how to draw 1 to my precise requirements! i can draw a circle to the exact radius i require but am struggling with the rectangle. can someone give me step by step instructions please


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## kvom (Apr 20, 2013)

1)Click on the rectangle tool button
2)Type 0,0 when prompted for the first corner, then enter
3)Type 8,13.5 when prompted for the opposite corner, then enter

Alternate:

1) Click on point tool
2) enter 0,0 for first point
3) enter 8,13.5 for second point
4) Click on rectangle tool
5) Use cursor to snap to the 0,0 point and click
6) Use cursor to snap to the 8,13.5 point, then click

Your can also draw the 4 sides separately using infinite lines and then trim.

You draw two adjacent lines and then copy each with the displacement option.

The point is, there are some things you just cannot do easily with just the mouse; you have to use the keyboard entry at times.


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## mikeb185 (Apr 20, 2013)

top man thanks very much


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## kf2qd (Apr 20, 2013)

2 lines at right angles - from a point anywhere on the screen where you need the rectangle. 
The use the offset tool and offset 1 line 8 and run the offset toll and use an offset of 13.5. Then use the champfer tool with both offsets set to 0 and clean up the other 3 corners. 

Personally, I don't care for the rectangle tool as I don't generally work from coordinate 0,0.


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## johnmcc69 (Apr 20, 2013)

That was probably the hardest concept for me to grasp moving from AcaD to Pro-E 3d.
No cross hairs? No coordinate system? This can't work!
But wait, instead of entering coordinates, I click "Rectangle", drag a rectangle to wherever..enter.
then..double click the dimensions created, change to whatever I want, all is good.

Started out in AcaD, & spent MANY years running it & still do. Sounds like Draftsite is a cool little program. I'd like to see some of the stuff you folks do with it. Does it use modelspace/paperspace like AcaD?

John


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## kvom (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't use the rectangle tool either.  I use the same technique as kf2qd, starting at a point of one corner and generating two orthogonal lines and then copying each with the displacement option.  As I usually just do drawings for CNC milling purposes, rectangles aren't necessary as I can create a closed polyline in CAM afterwards if needed.  And if it's imported as a polyrectangle I would need to convert to polyline anyway.

I first learned CAD in MasterCam class with step-by-step tutorial examples, and Draftsight's tools are very similar.


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## oddcarout (Aug 17, 2013)

This is a great post and I was hoping that someone might be able to help me, in DraftSight. I have a shape like the following:

|
|--
|
|---
|
|--
|

I would like to draw a curved line from the top point to the bottom point that touches the three horizontal lines. I would like it to follow the horizontal lines. An arc does not work because it uses a radius.

Thank you so much for your help already.


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## Mainer (Aug 18, 2013)

I think you want a spline. Look up spline in the help and see if that will do what you want.


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 18, 2013)

I have a copy of the program but have not used it. But most drawing programs allow you to draw circles and arcs in three ways one option is intersecting three points. so check for that option. 
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 18, 2013)

oddcarout:
first of all please post an introduction in the welcome sub fora. We love helping people but it really helps us help you if we know a little about you. 
so please tell us about you, your home shop, and your interest in model engines. 

Ok back to the question .
I opened the program  and tried a ARC  i clicked on points put three points on the screen went to arc clicked on each point and like magic it made an arc connecting all three points . took about 30 seconds. hope this helps. 
Tin


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## kvom (Aug 18, 2013)

Use can use a circle if all the points fall on the circle.  Click the circle tool icon, type "3P", and then select 3 points with the mouse.

If that doesn't work, choose the spline tool under Draw and click all the points to connect in order.


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## Mainer (Aug 19, 2013)

I thought the OP said an arc was not what he was looking for. Or did he just not know how to draw an arc through 3 arbitrary points?


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## Jopo (Aug 22, 2013)

_thanks for your help, i can draw a rectangle but im not grasping how to draw 1 to my precise requirements! i can draw a circle to the exact radius i require but am struggling with the rectangle. can someone give me step by step instructions please_

I find the rectangle command very simple and fast to use in Draftsight - exactly the same as autocad. Click the bottom left start point (anywhere you wish - use 'snap' to if you need) enter @xx.xx,xx.xx Y first X second and hey presto. Enter negative (@ -xx.xx,-xx.xx if required
If your rectangle exceeds your screen size go fit to screen.

Jopo


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## pkastagehand (Aug 26, 2013)

I down loaded v3.2 this summer and my cross hairs are gone.  Doesn't seem to matter what colors I use for background and for cross hairs.  I have a mouse cursor everywhere else on the screen  but when I mouse into the graphics area in either model space or on the sheets I loose all cursor indications.  Anyone else have this happen?

I've sent a note to tech support email address at Dassault but so far no response.

Paul


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## RichD (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi,
I use a real old DOS version of AutoCad (version 11), but I think other programs have similar features.

To draw a curve intersecting all of the horizontal "endpoints" in your example, use the 'pline' (polyline) command and have your endpoint "osnap" (that's an object snap feature) on. When finished, issue the 'pedit' (edit polyline) command. Select the polyline and choose "fit" to produce a curve that uses the line segments "endpoints" to change the straight line sections into a fitted curve. The 'spline' option produces a similar result but the curve may not be exactly on the points you specified.

By the way. That's a method you can use to manually draw an involute gear tooth curve. In the picture below I think you can see the basic idea behind the tooth curve.

Old timers used to hammer nails into a wooden gear pattern, then attach a string and pencil to "unwind" off the circumference of the nail pattern. The pencil would draw the correct involute curve for that pitch diameter.

Good luck,
Rich


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## jimmeyer (Feb 4, 2015)

when the second entity is selected the first one gets deselected?


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## ddmckee54 (Mar 16, 2015)

jimmeyer:

Not sure what you're referring to by the entity getting deselected, I'm guessing that you are fairly new to CAD?

Like RichD suggested, use the "pline" command and select the 5 points that are shown, this will initially give you a poly-line consisting of 4 straight line segments.  You're not really selecting or deselecting anything, you're telling Draftsight where the endpoints of each of the line segments that make up the poly-line are located.  Be sure that you select the points in the order that you want the line drawn.  When you have specified all 5 points, exit out of the "pline" command.  Then use the "pedit" command and select the poly-line that you want to edit.  You'll either have to use the command line and type in the option you want to select or you might get a drop-down menu, I don't have Draftsight in front of me right now so I'm not sure.  If you use the command line, one letter of each of these options will be capitalized - type in this leter and hit the ENTER key to select that option.  If you get a drop-down menu, just select the option you want.  When you select the "Fit" option of the "pedit" command, you are telling Draftsight to draw the smoothest curve that it can that touchs all the endpoints in the poly-line.

If you want to experiment, try selecting the points in different orders and see if you get the results that you expect.

Don


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## nel2lar (Mar 16, 2015)

Pat
Thank you for your explanation of Draft Sight. I installed it years ago and tried to learn it but for someone that has no idea of CAD operation and getting no where fast. I use your info and give it another try. I would like to have a 3D  but if I can not use 2D why pay out all the bucks.
Thank you again
Nelson Collar


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