# My version of SandyC's 3" vertical boiler



## doubletop (Mar 13, 2010)

I am making SandyCs 3 vertical boiler http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item107 (all the other sheets are on the download page. Firebird suggested I post the progress.

For machine tools I have a 1930/40s Lorch lathe with a good selection of attachments and a pillar drill. I have a vertical slide for the lathe that allows me to do some limited milling. I do have a reasonable selection of hand tools. So here goes.

I started with rough cutting the 3 tube to length and finishing the ends on the lathe supported by a wooden former on a bearing in the tailstock. Not my idea it came from Martin Evans book Model Locomotive Boilers The former was easily turned on a mandrill using a simple rest and standard wood chisel.

Finishing the barrel ends







Nicely square






The former in the tailstock






Next was the end plates. I had only got through the first few pages of Firebirds  making a small boiler when I pitched in and produced my own dies out of aluminum. Later I see Firebird has dispensed with them and now uses a former and beats the annealed copper. As youll see thats what I resorted to in the end.

Turning the male die






Making it fit the internal diameter of the boiler barrel.






Using the male to size the female die. 	






Turning down the male to be 2x less the thickness of the end plates and using a home made forming tool to finish the internal radii. The form tool was hardened and tempered and ground sharp before using it.






The finished dies






On to the three end plates

Copper sheet marked to size dia + bending allowance + flange size.






Rough cut to size using jigsaw.






I then tried turning these down to the correct size a number of ways, including the double sided tape method used by Firebird and then realized it didnt matter. I just used the rough cut disks and annealed them. They'll get finished later.






In the end I also didnt use the male/ female dies in the manner I had expected. I just used the male die and beat the annealed copper in the time-honored fashion. However I did use the female die as a sizing tool to get the final diameter right. That probably wasnt necessary though.






Putting the finished plates in the three jaw chuck then finished the flanges to size. So no need to cut the disk with any degree of accuracy nor work out how much bending allowance was required. Just make it enough.






One end plate in place in the barrel






The three finished end plates






I now miss a whole lot out on making up and drilling the barrel, end plates and flue. I painted all the parts in engineers blue to assist the marking out and used the surface plate, scribing block to mark it all out.

Once marked out and all the openings centre punched I used a combination of the lathe, V blocks and pillar drill to drill the holes to size.

Centre drilling the holes in the flue for the cross pipes






One point to be made here; I saw positioning the plates in the barrel as a potential problem when silver soldering so elected to use rivets to hold them in position. As the design has components at 45degress around the barrel I added 8 rivet holes around the circumference of each plate, so the end result will look nicer. These rivets wont be riveted but will end up just being silver soldered in.

The turning of the 7 bushes was a relatively simple job although I did realize that the inventories of the steam fitting suppliers are varied so you have to order these components before you start to make the bushes. e.g you make the bush for the water gauge 1/4 x 40TPI and then find you preferred supplier only does ¼ x 32TPI. The same goes for the pressure gauge, safety valve etc. unless you plan to make all those yourself as well.

All the components after pickling






All the sub assemblies loose fitted






The whole thing loose fitted






The end looking from the base






The top






After I've made Firebirds water gauge alignment jig tomorrow is silver soldering the whole thing together. I'll let you know how it goes..........


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## SBWHART (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice start 

Seem to have lost some of the pics is that just my end ?

Look forward to watching your boiler progress.

Stew


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## doubletop (Mar 13, 2010)

Pics are sorted now


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## gbritnell (Mar 13, 2010)

Doubletop, 
Sir, I applaud you both with the size and scope of the machine you're using and also the excellent work being done on the boiler. Working at the limits of a machine takes a lot of extra thought and work.
Very nice work,
gbritnell


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## steamer (Mar 13, 2010)

fine bit of boiler making there! :bow:

It sure is nice to have the right torch for the job too isn't it.

Well done!

Dave


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## zeeprogrammer (Mar 13, 2010)

Great post and an excellent looking boiler.
I enjoyed reading this.


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## bearcar1 (Mar 13, 2010)

Terrific end results on those pieces, especially from the use of a machine on the upper limits of its capacities. Very well done. It'll be a real gem when it is finally soldered up and tested.

BC1
Jim


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## cogburn (Mar 13, 2010)

You wouldn't be interested in renting out those dies would you?


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## steamboatmodel (Mar 13, 2010)

It looks great, what engine are you going to use?
I found all the download for the 3" Vertical Boiler plus two for burners the vertical and a horizontal, Burner_for_3.5_in_horizontal_boiler.pdf
Does anyone know if the plans for the horizontal are on the web?
Also are any of his engine plans available?
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Blogwitch (Mar 13, 2010)

Plans for horizontal boiler. You would have to make your own holding cradle, but it doesn't need to enclose the whole boiler. Normally it would be wood lagged with a couple of brass straps to hold it down to the cradle.

Almost any twin engine up to 1/2" bore and running at around 25psi would be fine.

Bogs  

View attachment ACS Horizontal Boiler.pdf


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## tel (Mar 13, 2010)

That's one mighty nice piece of boiler work, congrats on your effort so far.


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## Shopguy (Mar 13, 2010)

Very nice. :bow:
Ernie J


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## Jtrain (Mar 13, 2010)

cogburn  said:
			
		

> You wouldn't be interested in renting out those dies would you?


Or make end plates to sell?


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## firebird (Mar 13, 2010)

Hi Doubletop

So glad you decided to post your progress.

Looking good so far. Its great fun isn't it.    

I used a punch and die on my 3 inch horizontal boiler because I was using fairly thick copper plate and I wanted to know (for future use on larger boilers) how well I could form the plates using this method. It worked quite well and is a method I will use again. The small vertical boiler used much thinner copper plate which was easier to work so didn't really justify making punches and dies.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers

Rich


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## Maryak (Mar 13, 2010)

DT,

That is a very fine piece of model boiler making :bow: :bow: :bow:..........I'm envious ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## doubletop (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks all for your kind words of encouragement. Its been an interesting journey over the past few months I only really started using the equipment in February this year just so I could see what I could do. My father had given me the contents of his workshop once he was past being able to use it and its only recently that I've set up my own workshop and had the time to try something. So 44 years since 'O' level metalwork failed, here I am 

So to answer the questions

"What engine will I be using?"

February had me building the Erik-Jan Stroetinga wobbler. I had it running in a month so then set about making a suitable boiler


 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUPQqlBvEVk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUPQqlBvEVk[/ame]

(great double acting engine, and the plans are on the downloads page as WobblerEJS.pdf)

"Can I rent out the dies?" I'm afraid not notwithstanding I'm in New Zealand, I'd be unhappy to let them out of my possession.

"Can I make end plates for resale?" - I'd rather not, I'm new to this and not geared up for production levels of construction. I had problems finding a source of copper sheet, the main supplier is local and could only offer me a full sheet for $900. I know that's a lot of plates. I eventually found an off-cut in Auckland and had it couriered to me. I would also be concerned that my end plates are made for copper tube I found in the scrap dealers, with "NZ 3501" on a sticky label, would fit tube sourced in another country.

Anyway onwards and upwards. Today I made a new flue as the other one was too short. Take a look at the pictures, theres no 'meat' for a solder fillet onto the end plates. I made the flue to drawing forgetting the boiler barrel was 5/16 longer than drawing. Better be safe than sorry as I won't get a second chance at it once its installed and leaking. Next is Firebird's water gauge bush installation jig.

I'll let you know how I go but it could be next weekend before the next installment.


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## steamboatmodel (Mar 13, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Plans for horizontal boiler. You would have to make your own holding cradle, but it doesn't need to enclose the whole boiler. Normally it would be wood lagged with a couple of brass straps to hold it down to the cradle.
> 
> Almost any twin engine up to 1/2" bore and running at around 25psi would be fine.
> 
> Bogs


Hi Bogs,
That is just the one for the Horizontal Burner. I am looking for the Boiler.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Blogwitch (Mar 13, 2010)

Gerald,

There are five pages in the PDF file, you are only looking at the first page. :

I would suggest you try to scroll down. ;D

Bogs


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## firebird (Mar 14, 2010)

Hi Doubletop

I first used the alignment jig on my first (3 inch) boiler and it did the trick. Its made of steel by the way so don't leave it in the bushes then put it in the pickle, that makes a mess. However it was tight to unscrew it after silver soldering even using the alignment bar as a tommy bar. Before I used it on my second boiler I tightened the die its holder and ran it down again to cut a slightly deeper (looser) thread. That worked better.

Cheers

Rich


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## doubletop (Mar 14, 2010)

Rich

Thanks for the tips. I've made the jig but no pics right now. It had occured to me not to put steel into the pickle so avoided that mistake. I did read somewhere about using a graphite pencil on the threads before assembly. Maybe it was on your post. I just plan to use the first few threads of the jig so it doesn't lock up under heat. I noticed on your horizontal boler that the bushes were right on the lip of the end plate flange so needed the jig to align them. I'm just making sure, in my case the bushes are on the same line on the boiler barrel so are pretty well lined up anyway.

Planned soldering session didn't go ahead today, I may give it a go tommorrow otherwise it will be next weekend.


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## steamboatmodel (Mar 14, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Gerald,
> 
> There are five pages in the PDF file, you are only looking at the first page. :
> 
> ...


Right you are, I had looked at the first drawing and it had in the title block sheets 1 of 1. I then missed that there were 5 pages of the PDFs. Thanks Bogs.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## doubletop (Mar 14, 2010)

I went out today to start the silver soldering of the boile components.

Water Gauge alignment jig following Firebirds design







All the parts out of the pickle and dried off





Graphiting on the threads of the jig so they dont get soldered in inadvertently






All the components fluxed and assembled ready for soldering






First attempt was with the flue tube but it resulted in poor flow of solder around the joints. I've done plenty of plubing joints so my expectaion of soldering is apply the heat and when it is right the solder flashes round the joint giving a nice clean finish. That wasn't happening so I gave up on that that threw it back in the pickle ready to clean it up and start again. I was using 620degree C solder.

I then attempted to the three bushes in the top plate. Again the solder wouldnt flow and then disaster. I had plenty of flow as one of the bushes melted!






The melted bush






I can only assume that I had too much heat ??? and I hadnt enough flux on the spelter, and maybe the joint.

So back to the drawing board make a new bush and try to salvage the end plate by drilling out the collapsed bush. Otherwise a new end plate is required. 

A bit disheartened; but thats why we are here, to learn, so a few disasters are to be expected.


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## bearcar1 (Mar 14, 2010)

Oh my , what type of heat source are you using ??? 

BC1
Jim


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## doubletop (Mar 14, 2010)

I was using my Sievert torch on LPG. I have three burners for it and when the middle sized one didn't work I went for the big one






Which was probably a bit too much heat !

I can only assume ist a flux issue. I was using Sivaloy #1 flux and Easyflow 620C solder


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## Blogwitch (Mar 14, 2010)

DT,

It looks like you have two major problems, one is the technique, the other is material.

The golden rule with silver soldering is that you must try to keep the heat source away from the jointing material (silver solder and flux) as much as you can, and use conducted heat to melt the flux and solder by sneaking up on it.

Because of where you are in the world means that you don't have access to what I class as the best silver soldering flux there is, Tenacity #5.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Johnson-Matthey-Tenacity-5-Silver-Brazing-Flux-23460.htm

What can happen, and it looks like it has happened to yourself, the flux has been exhausted before the solder has had time to flow. Tenacity #5 doesn't suffer from that fault, as it is designed for silver soldering stainless steel, so keeps on working well after other fluxes have given up.

I would send you some for doing your job, but customs officers have great suspicion of little bags with white powder in them. But if you want to take the chance, if you PM me with your full name and address, I will get a little bag (enough to do your job) sent to you. 

Bogs


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## doubletop (Mar 15, 2010)

Bogs

Thanks for the offer. Before we incur the wrath of the customs people or get accused of shipping hazardous substance by air (if it is). Or if it has to come by surface mail it will take 9 weeks as it bobs around on various oceans on its way here. So I'll check around in NZ first. There's a lot of stainless work done here, probably as a result of the diary and wine industries. If it can be made out of stainless somebody is doing it.

If I fail I'll get back to you.

Thanks again


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## firebird (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi Doubletop

That's a shame but don't get disheartened, it definitely takes practice. Did you see my hydraulic pump build, I melted that!!! Everything John says above goes. If you look at my small steam engine build you will see I use silver solder wire. A ring of wire placed around the part in the flux and build the heat up till the solder flows around. That works well for me. Have a go with some scrap copper and brass before you try the boiler again.

Cheers

Rich


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## Blogwitch (Mar 15, 2010)

DT,

If you do change your mind, I have sent this flux to a few people in various parts of the world, and haven't had any trouble. It would most probably be with you in a week, but if you want to try your own way then that is fine.

I would just like to query something on your build. Are your bushes made from brass? The reason I ask is that all your bushes should be made of bronze. 

The reason being, at the temperatures your boiler will be working at, zinc will leech out of brass bushes and they will very quickly go porous. The same goes for stay rods in a horizontal boiler, they must also be of bronze, not brass. Coupled with the fact that if you are buying your fittings from a reputable dealer, they will be bronze based. If you then screw them into brass bushes, a galvanic action sets up, coupled with the de-zincing, very quickly the threads in the brass bushes will reduce to nothing and you then run the risk of the fittings being blown out of the boiler when under pressure.

I had this happen to me with a commercially made boiler, luckily, I spotted it weeping, and when the fitting was removed, there was very little left of the threads. I had to make all new bushings and rebuild the boiler, which I still have in the back of my shop, and have had no further troubles with it.

If they are bronze, then fine. 

I thought I had better mention it because when a boiler build like yours is ever shown, a lot of people want to build one as well, and they might not know about the brass/bronze bushing situation.

Bogs


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## doubletop (Mar 16, 2010)

Firebird/Bogs thanks again for your encouragement.

I had a look at the Tenacity spec and saw it had a tem range of 600-900 so thought this may be a good substitute so have some being delivered overnight. I'll do some practice pieces before the real job. I've got plenty of scrap parts now to try it out.with  

_Easy-flo Flux Paste a brazing flux suitable for use with silver brazing filler metals. *It has a working range of 575-825C* and can be used with silver brazing filler metals melting below 775C. Easy-flo Flux Paste *exhibits better life at temperature and greater overheat resistance than many other flux pastes*. Easy-flo Flux paste has a low melt viscosity and as such performs well when pasted onto vertical surfaces, and *can be useful when brazing stainless steel*. The molten viscosity of Easy-flo Flux Paste is such that it holds on vertical surfaces. It is therefore particularly useful when brazing joints in positions where other fluxes may have a tendency to run away from the joint._

Bogs; you are right pointing out the use of brass and I am probably using brass. That's what I had and I hadn't intended for this boiler to be used for much it was to be just a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Therefore I didn't see the de-zincification as a major issue. However, I hadn't realised that the electrolytic action between the bronze fittings and brass was an issue. So I'd better think again. I don't want this sitting on a shelf looking pretty and some years, to later fire it up to have all the fittings come flying out. Not good.

So I had already made the decision to remake all the messed up parts and the end plate is now re-done and back in the pickle






I also took the opportunity to make the flange larger so the plate sits outside the barrel slightly. I didnt like the look of the top and barrel end being flush, to drawing, it was odd.






I hope to get hold off more stock by the weekend so I can remake all my bushes; the flux is on its way so hopefully I can be back on track by the end of the weekend. 

One thing I do want to try to achieve is good clean soldered joints. I may have to end up resorting to Firebirds solder rings approach but I dont want to. I come from an electronics/ electrical eng background and a perfect soldered joint is a thing of beauty. Ive also done a bit of plumbing in my time and joints with globs of solder, however small, were a failure to me. I know that a good sound joint can be made when it isnt even apparent that any solder has been used. Get it right and the slightest touch with the solder and it rings around the joint and is done. Hopefully thats what can be achieved. 

Ill let you know how I go. if Im not successful Ill be back to take up the offer of the Tenacity export to NZ.


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## doubletop (Mar 16, 2010)

While on the subject of bronze bushes; maybe you can help with identifying this. When I made my wobbler on my first attempt at the cylinder I grabbed two bits of stock and machined them up and soldered them together. You can see that they are both different materials. The plate is definitely brass, is the cylinder bronze? If it is I already have some and can start the new bushes straight away






I eventually cocked this up to; so the final cylinder ended up being in brass.


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## Blogwitch (Mar 16, 2010)

DT,

It is very difficult to tell with the heat sheen on them. The darker one could just be caused by it not reaching the same temp as the flat plate.

When you come to checking between bronze and brass there are a couple of easy (but not infallible) checks. All because the brass/bronze alloys can run into each other and there are most probably hundreds of different recipes for each alloy, depending what properties are required from the final product.

Normally bronze will have a slightly redder hue than brass. The drill test is usually a good one. When brass is drilled or machined, the swarf normally comes off as either fine dust or very sharp needles, whereas bronze will tend to come off as a curl.

As a note, my problem with the purchased boiler was partially accelerated by myself, I had wrongly stored the vertical boiler with some water in it over the winter period, and the bottom site glass fitting was the one affected and showed imminent signs of failure. But on redoing all the other fittings, they were also showing signs of corrosion and de-zincing as well, so it would have happened sooner or later anyway. I do know that a few of the 'toy' brass boilers suffer from the same fate of de-zincing. A brass boiler made by Wilesco that I owned, ended up with areas on the central flue that were heavily perforated and tissue paper thin. That was consigned to the dustbin. So it is a well known problem in certain circles.

Bogs


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## firebird (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi DT

Bronze will often have a dark spiral around the bar like this,






Cheers

Rich


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## doubletop (Mar 17, 2010)

Thanks Firebird it looks like I may have some bronze then. There appears to be some remants of markings on this bar. I can now remake my bushes over the weekend. A set of indexable tipped lathe tools are on its way to me so I'll have some new toys to play with to make them.


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## SBWHART (Mar 17, 2010)

DT

Another thing you have to watch out for is that you're not using Aluminum Bronze as it just wont solder, bin there got the scrap, one way to tell ally bronze is with a strong magnet for some strange reason ally bronze is magnetic.

Hope this helps

Stew


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## doubletop (Mar 22, 2010)

Fortunately Stew it wasn't ally Bronze

OK Im back with an update on progress. I made a new end plate and a complete set of bushes out of the material that could be bronze, going on Firebirds spiral stripe identification.

End plate and central flue have now been successfully silver soldered but not without further issues.






I gave it a generous amount of solder on the water cross tubes as there is no way to get back into then to fix any leaks once the boiler is completed. The joints cant be seen anyway.

Eventually a degree of success with getting all the bushes installed but it wasnt as clean and tidy as I would have liked. A few globs of solder here and there.






Ive now moved on to the bottom end plate and now had about 4 attempts to get it soldered up. Once it fails its back into the pickle for an hour, quick clean with one of those green kitchen scoring pads (nothing drastic) rinse and a generous application of flux. (I now have some Easyflow paste).






Youll see I have tried Firebirds ring of solder technique hoping that the whole thing would heat up and flow nicely into the joint without any problems. No such luck, hence the 4 attempts.

LESSON LEARNED  Dont get your silver solder mixed up. I had had some Easyflow 620degC but in amongst it was some 840degC, no wonder the brass bushes melted before the solder when I tried to blast it with my biggest burner. I am heading towards throwing away all my silver solder and buying new so I know what I have. 

Im persevering with getting this thing soldered up, but I've had better success. But that's why I am doing this, to learn.

In the meantime, while all the pickling was going on, I used the time to make myself a safety valve based on a combination of the drawings from Firebird and BogS posted on Firebirds thread A small boiler 











That's it for now...


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## Maryak (Mar 22, 2010)

Dtop,

To help me with identifying which solder I pick up, I put a small piece of masking tape on one end and write the silver % in texta. The side benefit is it stops you grabbing the hot end, (ask me how I know :).

Great job on the boiler by the way. :bow:

Hope it helps.

Best Regards
Bob


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## ianjkirby (Mar 22, 2010)

Hi DT,

 As no-one else has mentioned the following, I will pass them on fyi, and anyone else interested.

 Most silver solder comes with a colour-coded tip (at one end only!) for different grades (eg, light blue is 245, or 45% silver content). Provided you are always careful to use the non-painted end first, it will always remain to identify the grade.

 Secondly, may I suggest you carefully check your flux compatibility. It often happens that some different grades of silver solder use different fluxes, and if you have the wrong flux, NOTHING will make a good joint. Always test on a small piece of scrap before attacking good material.

Regards, Ian.


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## tel (Mar 22, 2010)

Further to which .....

put a short 'U' bend in the colour coded end of the rod,

a: Stops you grabbing the hot end
b: Preserves the colour coding
c. Lets you hang the stick on a convenient nail.

Pretty much standard practice.


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## mklotz (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm betting my cynical mind has already puzzled out the answer to this question, but...

Is there any consistency in the color coding from one manufacturer to another?

If so, is there a chart detailing the code?


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## doubletop (Mar 22, 2010)

Maryak , ianjkirby and mklotz; Thanks for the useful tips, helpful to everybody. 

I have the masking tape labels but there's a bit of a story with my workshop. All my contents belonged to my father and when he couldn't see well enough to continue working on his projects we called in Crown Movers and they shipped the contents lock stock and barrel to me New Zealand. It's been in storage for a while and last year I finally built somewhere to house it all. I had some time and started work on my projects literally 7 weeks ago, with no previous experience to speak of. Firebird convinced me to post my progress, so here I am.

Anyway on the subject of silver solder; with all the contents I had a bag of labeled up rods some bound into bundles and some labels just dried and shriveled up in the bottom of the bag. I had thought I had worked out what was what, but apparently not.

On the flux I have EasyFlow SS 620degC and have obtained Easyflow flux paste so I should be good there.

Anyway for the avoidance of any doubt of what I may have I'm going to re-stock so I can then only blame the operator and not the materials.


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## firebird (Mar 22, 2010)

Hi DT

The ring of solder inside your boiler should have worked perfectly. I would have heated it from the outside until the solder flowed. You seem to be doing everything right so I can only assume that the solder/flux combination isn't compatible?? Nice looking safety valve though.

cheers

Rich


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## doubletop (Mar 22, 2010)

I've supposedly got easyflow flux and solder and it hasn't worked. Applying the heat on the outsides had the inside glowing red. Anyway been on the phone to suppliers and waiting for a call back on solder and flux availability. Hopefully I can pick it up tomorrow and have better news at the end of the week.

In the meantime it will be blanking plugs and your pump, ready for pressure testing when I eventually get it together.


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## ianjkirby (Mar 24, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I'm betting my cynical mind has already puzzled out the answer to this question, but...
> 
> Is there any consistency in the color coding from one manufacturer to another?
> 
> If so, is there a chart detailing the code?



Hi Marv,
 It will depend upon whether your country has national standards in place or not. Here in Oz, Standards Australia, the quasi-governmental outfit responsible for such things, has standards for all sorts of things, including colour codes for silver solder, and mfgrs here pretty well go along, in order to remain viable in the market. If I can locate the colour code, I will post it, but it might be different in your country, so check first.
 We even have a standard for miniature hobby boilers, but thats another story!
Regards, Ian.


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## doubletop (Mar 24, 2010)

The silver solder saga continues and I have tracked down a source in NZ and now have some on order. It appears all roads lead back to Johnson Matthey in UK or AGR Matthey in Oz.

I had (or thought I had) some Easyflow and it had been labeled 620degC that would have been Easyflow 45 or Easyflow 55, which later became known as Silverflow 55 and then Silbraze 55. The 55 is 55% silver I assume, and the more silver the lower the soldering temperature . (see attached)

I found Kendalls, www.kendalldistributors.com, are the NZ importers and a very helpful person there had my small order sorted in 5 mins. I have ordered the Silbraze 56. However, be ready for the shock its $1120/kilo ex GST. Approx 100gms or 8 rods 750mm x 1.6mm was around $100.

I went for the Silbraze because of its relationship to Easyflow and had sourced Easyflow flux last week. Kendall's will do all the fluxes as well.

When it arrives Ill let you know if they are colour coded in any way.

(here's a link to a preview of the relevant AU/NZ standard, which references AN, EW and ISO standards and covers identification and marking so there probably is a standard colour coding system but I'm not about to buy a copy of the full standard to find out. http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store2/PreviewDoc.aspx?saleItemID=440304)



View attachment SilBrazAlloy_range.pdf


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## firebird (Mar 25, 2010)

Hi DT.

That's very expensive. If you get a spare minute have a look at this site 

http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/c.do?category=26&page=1

Some very useful info there as well. (I have no association with this company other than a customer)

I copied and pasted just a short extract from their home page.

842

This is the alloy most widely used by the model engineer.
It contains 42% silver, cadmium and conforms to BS EN 1044 AG303
Melting Range 610 -620 °C
It is free flowing, offers excellent joint penetration and has the lowest melting range of all silver solders.
It is available as wire 0.5 & 0.7mm dia, rods 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5mm dia


842 Silver Solder Rod 1.5mm dia x 500 (5 rod pack) 	
842 is 42% silver, cadmium bearing alloy. Melting Range 610 - 620° C Conforms to BS EN 1044 AG 303 Price includes P&P. There is no VAT
Our price: £14.20

And the more you buy the cheaper it gets.

I don't know if they ship worldwide but that sounds a lot cheaper here in the uk.

Cheers

Rich


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## doubletop (Mar 25, 2010)

Firebird; thanks for the info a very useful website. 

My silver solder arrived yesterday and I had a successful evening. More on that in a later post. By the way it wasnt colour coded in any way.

The Cupalloys prices do look attractive however Ive just done some price comparisons of the 456 Silver Solder Fluxed Rod 1.5mm dia (5 rod pack) as I had purchased 56% from my supplier

Cupalloys 456 - 56% 5 x 500mm x 1.5mm = £20.50 GB

Kendals Silbraze56 - 56% 8 x 750mmx 1.5mm = $104 NZ

NZ Dollar exchange rate right now = £1=$2.104 NZ

£20.50= $43.13 

$43.13/(5rods x0.5 mtr) = $17.25/mtr

$104/(8rods x 0.75mtr) = $17.33/mtr 

Spookily similar, however my $104 did include shipping and GST (VAT equivalent) but I did manage to get some discount.

I dont have a price for the 46% and on a quick look I can't find anything on the Kendall's website

More on the boiler later with pics. Hopefully Ill have it all together by the end of the weekend. Only the last end plate to go. Looking for a local supply of O rings right now so I can make the pump ready for testing


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## doubletop (Mar 28, 2010)

Ive finally got the silver soldering sorted. The answer is obvious to all and no doubt features regularly on various posts. FLUX, FLUX and more FLUX.

I had read about it and was concerned about flux life and once it appeared to start deteriorating I had assumed it was done. In fact the deterioration was the state it needed to be in for effective soldering. The tips on the Cupalloy site, pointed to by Firebird, are useful http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/silver-soldering-tips-c25.html and when I re-read my copy of Martin Evans Model Locomotive Boilers it all became clear.

Anyway all the silver soldering is now complete, although not to the standard I would have liked but I am reluctant to try to fix it further at risk of messing the whole thing up. Ive lost count of the times Ive reworked this. Basically its been numerous cycles of solder. stop, cool, re-pickle, clean, dry, re-flux and try again.

This is the first end plate looking from the inside showing a clear ring of solder that has come through from the other side and with evidence the rivets are soldered in. These rivets only serve to hold the end plates in position during the soldering so are not riveted, in fact it would be impossible to rivet the second plate.







The finished boiler with blanking plugs for ready pressure testing.






During the regular cycles of soldering while the job was in the pickle I had the opportunity to make more fittings

Boring the smoke stack adaptor. The engineers clamp on the top slide allows me to measure the depth with my digital caliper between the clamp and the tool post, rather than miss count the turns on the feed handle. Poor mans DRO.






Finished smoke stack adaptor and top cap






Of course having got this far I had to see what it looked like with the fittings added 






You can see the globs of solder that have run down from the fittings. Ill clean those up and theyll disappear under the wooden cladding I plan to cover it with.

*Pressure testing. *

I expect that this may be a bit controversial but it did the job..

I was going to make the water pump based on the version Firebird did. But have had difficulty getting hold of the small O rings. I also needed a pressure gauge and was going to use the one from this pump as Ive got two of these things. 





They go to 300psi and are used for pumping the suspension on mountain bikes. They are fitted with a non return valve, pressure gauge and pressure release button (black button opposite the gauge.

I removed the gauge ready to make an adaptor for it to fit it to the boiler and in trying to work out thread types and sizes realized that the Schrader connector is 5/16 x 32 ME and would fit straight onto the boiler with a simple adaptor.

Ill say it before anybody gets concerned.* Never pressure test a boiler with air, its extremely unsafe*. Although trying to do that with this pump would take you a very long time.

I fitted the blanking plugs, filled the boiler with water ensuring no air was trapped, Unscrewed the pump barrel and filled that with water and pushed the plunger in to purge the air. Fitted the pump to the boiler pumped water through the pump and got rid of all the air bubbles and then fitted the boiler filler plug.

I put the pressure up to 50psi, if the pump plunger was getting to the end of its stroke I removed it and, topped up the water and replaced the plunger. In fact I didn't even bother screwing the plunger back into the barrel as there is no pressure against it. With the water in the system it doesnt take more than two strokes to get above 100psi

I had a minor leak from one of the blanking plugs, sorted with more ptfe tape and then did cycles of 50, 70, 90 psi for 15 mins and back to 0. The rated pressure for this boiler, supplied by SandyC with his design, is 90psi. I had reworked Sandys calculations with the materials I had used as was still well within his design margins. So I decide to go for 150psi for ½ hour. It dropped 20 psi over the ½ hour but I have no intent of running this for that long, nor at 90psi so it's good enough for me.






I believe I met the requirements of pressure testing and as long as water is used and not air, and if nobody has any other major issues with it I believe these bike pumps are pretty effective. They are $15US on ebay but no doubt can be purchased from your local bike store.


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## zeeprogrammer (Mar 28, 2010)

Beautiful looking boiler and a very good post.
I'm watching with much interest.


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## doubletop (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement Zee; more to come yet. 

Tonight I've made a right angle fitting for the pressure gauge so the U bend goes down and up to the pressue gauge rather than out perpendicular to the bush and then, down and up. If you follow. I annealed the pressure gauge pipe and bent it so now its in the pickle prior to soldering to the unions. While that is going on I've turned the gas tube for the burner.

Pics will follow when I've made up the pressure gauge pipework. I've also got a few bit and bobs on order which will hopefully turn up before Easter so I may get it steamed up over Easter, if only with the gas torch.


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## Blogwitch (Mar 29, 2010)

Looks like you have got that silver soldering cracked now DT. Very neat job.

Now you have got the correct materials and a little bit of practice, you will always wonder why you had such a hard time of it in the beginning.

Once you get the skill, you should never lose it.

I'm looking forwards to what is to come.


Bogs


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## doubletop (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks Bogs

It really is a case of how hot is hot enough. After the melted bush incident, the knowledge that the flux looses its life I was very (to) cautious. it's a case of learning the tell tale signs of when the job is ready for the solder. Stabbing away with with the solder rod with flux on the end only results in solder where you don't want it when the end drops off. Ideally should be a case of heat the job, remove the heat, apply the solder and move on. But when is the right time takes practice. I not there yet but its coming.


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## doubletop (Apr 3, 2010)

Ive been up to two things since the last post. The burner and a top hat for the boiler to cover the end plate and bushes to finish it off.

*Top Hat*

I am looking ahead to the stage when the finish it when I clad the boiler in hardwood. I had thought of doing a single brass sheet to cover the bushes on the top and the soldering of the end plate, but I only had some 0.5mm sheet and that would have looked odd as a flat plate. I did think about making another former and annealing the brass and making it like another end plate. However, languishing in the pickle was a piece of copper tube ¼ long that just fitted over the outer diameter of the boiler barrel. Id found it in the junk box in the early days and thrown it into the pickle thinking it may come in handy. It has.

What needs covering up.	






I turned the copper ring to finish off the rough ends, rough cut a brass disk and soft soldered them together. I decided on soft solder as I didnt want to see the sheet disintegrate and its at the top of the boiler so out of the heat and only decorative.

Finishing the brass diameter.






Holes for the flue, and three bushes






The finished Top Hat with fittings in place






This now gives me a point of reference to work to for the hardwood cladding.

*Burner*

I have been ignoring the burner until now. I needed some suitable copper tube to make the Sandy C burner and finally got hold of some from the local scrap dealer last week. Actually I only need 50mm but got a 2 meter length so a bit of scope for error!

Basic stuff now, cut the tube to length, into the lathe and finish off the ends. A disc of copper rough cut in with the jigsaw, Into the pickle and silver solder the two together. All went perfectly and a joint to the standard Ive been trying to achieve. Very satisfying.






Ive been looking at burner materials and the use of ceramic burner heads. Rather than go off and order some from Bruce Engineering in the UK I did a bit of digging around to see if people used plain old holes in metal, like my camping stove, barbeque etc. I found examples and decided to go that way first, so time for another aluminum former to shape the burner head.






While I was turning this down it occurred to me that it could be usefully used as an insert in the copper base so it didnt collapse in the lathe chuck as it was nicely annealed from the soldering.






I then turned it down to size for the former for the insert annealed the brass sheet and beat it into shape. A series of 1mm holes later I had my burner head. In was conservative with the number of holes I drilled as I could always drill more but would have to start again if Id done too many.






All the parts ready for assembly the burner tube and jet holder are to Sandys drawing






Remarkably these items are very similar to this in a burner I have for a Rob Roy 3 ½ inch loco, I believe this came from Bruce Engineering around 1993. Actually the jet holder fits the burner tube I have made. This proved very useful in testing as I used the Rob Roy burner as a point of reference and swapped the jet assemblies between both to check the results. The jet I was using came from an old Primus portable barbeque so I had no idea what size it was.

My burner alight






The Rob Roy burner alight, only noticeable by the ceramic glowing under heat






I then went back to the ceramics idea. One thing that NZ has is volcanoes and volcanic rock, pumice. Any tourists stopping by Lake Taupo will soon realize that the rocks on the beach are all pumice. Throw one in the lake and it will float until it gets waterlogged. The lake was formed 5000years ago by a huge volcanic explosion. Anyway everybody in NZ has one or two of these pumice rocks in the house somewhere, so I tracked one down.

I tested the pumice before I used it by blasting it with my biggest gas torched head for 30seconds. After another 30 seconds the pumice was cool enough it could be picked up by hand.

It is are cut easy with a hacksaw and can be sanded to shape






I drilled a number of 1.5mm holes (as thats the size in the Rob Roy burner) and fitted the pumice to my burner base as a push fit. Firing it up was successful, this is alight but the flame cant be seen, no glow on the pumice either. 






This is early days for the pumice burner head and Im afraid Im not a source of supply for other experimenters. I live 300 km from the lake and Im sure the local Iwi would have something to say about their pumice. _(if you are interested Google NZ, Iwi and politics)_


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## zeeprogrammer (Apr 3, 2010)

Fantastic post.
I enjoyed that.


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## doubletop (Apr 4, 2010)

We have steam !!!

With the burner working it was time to get some water into the boiler and see if it would steam up. It was difficult to confirm if the burner was alight when installed so I have drilled some additional holes in the base so it can be checked. They will also help lighting it and I also recall Sandy C had advised Firebird to add extra holes in his vertical boiler base so the burner would work more efficiently. I only used the "watering can" burner head and not the pumice version.

Anyway here is evidence of the results.






It only got to 25psi. The home made safety valve doesn't hold pressure. I tested it with the mountain bike suspension pump I had used for the bolier pressure testing and found my valve leaks all the time. (you'll recall I had said that the schrader valve connection on the pump is 5/13 x 32 so a standard safety valve with those threads fits without adaption). I compared the results with a commercial safety valve which holds pressure up to about 90psi and then drops back to about 25 psi. So more work required on the home made safety valve, in the meantime I'll use the commercial valve.

I've started a base for the boiler and the wobbler engine, I had made as my first project, so both can be coupled together. I used the vertical slide in the lathe, lathe milling style, and routed the recess for the flywheel using a router bit in the lathe chuck.






More to come when I get it all connected up and running. before then I do intend to do more work on the burner, getting the gas regulation working better I think the current setup is running a little low on gas pressure, make a reversing valve and maybe getting the cladding underway.


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## 4156df (Apr 4, 2010)

Congrats on the steam! 

I just got a look at your yesterday post. Well done. Using a bit of local pumice is just too cool.

Dennis


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## shred (Apr 4, 2010)

Woo! Steam! 

Getting the safety to fit well and not leak was a bit of a trial on my last boiler-- getting the ball seat just right was the key 

Hm... I have a little chuck of the Lake Taupo shoreline somewhere here in Texas... Great fun was had as a child to throw rocks in the lake, then throw other rocks at the one bobbing around.


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## Deanofid (Apr 4, 2010)

Great news on your successful steam-up, DT. 
Really an interesting build here. I find it so neat that you could just grab a particular piece of rock, cut it with a hacksaw, and use it for your burner. 

What is the lathe you're using?

Dean


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## slick95 (Apr 4, 2010)

DT,

Very Nicely Done :bow: :bow: :bow:

Just read the whole thread and really enjoyed all your efforts to document and share so we can all (me) learn from your challenges. I hope to build this boiler some day soon and I will certainly refer back to your build for direction.

Thanks again and Congrats

Jeff


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## doubletop (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks all for your posts over the weekend and to those others who have posted and I hadn't aknowledged directly. 

Today got the gas regulation sorted. I suppose a lash up to the 9Kg gas bottle for my barbecue, a regulator from a camping stove, hose from an old gas torch and the regulator that came with the Rob Roy burner was bound to have issues. Notwithstanding that using the words "gas" and "lash up" in the same sentence isn't PC, the problem I had originally was too much gas. The rig I had been using wasn't giving me enough, requiring the taps fully open. Anyway a trip to the camping store and a closer inspection of the gas canisters they had (by carefully removing the protective cap in the store) finally revealed that I can get the correct cylinders in NZ, for what I had thought was an odd European fitting. Anyway all sorted for the cost of an $8 gas cylinder and now full control of gas/heat.

I've now sorted my cladding and cut 3mm x 10mm strips of hardwood by rigging up a mini table saw on the lathe. Another lash up I'm afraid, so no pics for the safety conscious. But I mounted a 100mm saw blade on a mandrill in the lathe chuck. Cut a slot in a piece of mild steel as a table, mounted it on an angle plate on the vertical slide, which was in turn mounted to the top slide. A piece of 15mm ally angle held with engineers clamps was the fence. The 3mm strips were cut from a piece 10mm x 40mm and then sanded ready to be cut into lengths for the cladding.

I am fully in regard of safety when I do stuff, but part of this game is about innovation, and at times not going to the store and spending $300 on tools that will only be used once. Believe me I spent an hour in the store today looking for a suitable tool I could use and then found the 100m blade and DIY kicked in.

Deanofid asked what lathe I am using. Its a 1930/40s Lorch. I think its an LL looking at this site http://www.s1p.de/05_w/05_ix.html. It's a bit of a bitsa with non standard headstock, metric top slide, imperial tailstock, washing machine motor, cheapo import vertical slide etc. but I've got three chucks, collet sets and various other bits a bobs so it does the job. No thread cutting and milling is as minimum as it can be, but the top slide is spot on so small items are a breeze. Basically Lorch are watch/clockmakers lathes and the basic design had been around since the 19th Century. Also see http://www.lathes.co.uk/lorch/

So next will be finishing the base, its had its first coat of poly now and a second will go on tonight, I'll fiddle about with the cladding during the week, or make the reversing valve I've been putting off, and then plumbing it all up.


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## ss2fly (Apr 5, 2010)

Well done on the burner!!! NICE WORK.....

If the Pumice idea takes off, let me know, I have bags full of the stuff here.....all shapes and sizes... (stuff the IWI....)

Andy.


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## doubletop (Apr 5, 2010)

Andy

Now I've got the "watering can" producing steam I must go back and do some more tests with the pumice version. At least I didn't try it with green stone. That would have been problematic and I'm not talking technically.....

Have you done the capacity calcs, and had any luck with finding yourself a piece of copper tube?


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## ss2fly (Apr 6, 2010)

No I haven't yet sorry, been busy fitting the Motard wheels to the KTM, sorting the workshop, organising the space for my South Bend lathe I just aquiried....... finding room for a mill that is in the pipeline etc.... so the boiler has gone on the "back burner" so to speak....

I am still fooling around on the old 1909 Drummond Roundbed Lathe I have, making bearing spacers and collars etc fot the wheel conversion on my KTM so all is not lost..

I really need to finish some of my existing projects before I start new ones.

Andy


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## bearcar1 (Apr 6, 2010)

ss2fly  said:
			
		

> .....all shapes and sizes... (stuff the IWI....)




Hmmm, how do they taste? Are they any good on the grill? (barbie) LoL!

DT, well done man, That boiler will look like a million bucks when you get it all together, polished up and mounted. It'll be a show stopper.

BC1
Jim


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## doubletop (Apr 6, 2010)

ss2fly  said:
			
		

> .......... been busy fitting the Motard wheels to the KTM, sorting the workshop, organising the space for my South Bend lathe I just aquiried....... finding room for a mill that is in the pipeline etc.... so the boiler has gone on the "back burner" so to speak....
> 
> I am still fooling around on the old 1909 Drummond Roundbed Lathe I have, making bearing spacers and collars etc fot the wheel conversion on my KTM so all is not lost..
> 
> ...



I'd have thought that you'd have enough on your plate without adding a boiler right now. I'm looking at buying a mill but have deliberately avoided that until I get this boiler finished, otherwise I never will. As a newbie I've set myself the goal of doing something sensible with what I've got before spending money on new toys. Hence the wobbler and now the boiler. Once the wobbler runs under its own steam the order for the mill goes in. I've already got financial approval from head office.



			
				bearcar1  said:
			
		

> DT, well done man, That boiler will look like a million bucks when you get it all together, polished up and mounted. It'll be a show stopper.
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Thanks; It is looking good right now I've cleaned it up a bit and added the fittings so I can show off at the local model engineering club tonight. http://steammachine.com/hvmes/


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## doubletop (Apr 11, 2010)

I had not run the engine on the boiler as I wanted to make a reversing valve for the engine, and until Id done that I didnt want to waste tubing and nipples on a temporary plumbing of the steam pipes. I got stuck into the reversing valve first thing Saturday and had it finished by the afternoon.

Its pretty basic and just allows the inlet and exhaust to be swapped on the two ports to the engine.

The port plate







Milling the steamways in the lathe. I dont have a rotary table and dividing plate so a 6BA screw through the job and into a convenient 6BA hole taped into the vertical slide and diestock to rotate the piece did the job.






The parts ready to go






The assembled reversing valve.






Now time to put it all together on the base and get it plumbed up. I was looking around for something to protect the base from the heat of the burner. We have steel roofs in NZ and in the junk box I found a set of samples for Colour Steel roofing left over from having the house renovated. The Zincalume sheet was perfect; it only required two holes to line up with the boiler base. It was even the right size and already had the corners rounded. 






All that was required was to steam it up and see how it went. Although it ran it was pretty unspectacular.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkydCEOk8o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkydCEOk8o[/ame]

Issues are:

*1) Leaking safety valve, not holding pressure*, even the propriety one fails to hold pressure above 25psi. I'll start by searching for the thread on testing and setting safety valves.

*2) Not enough heat from the burner to be able to maintain steam pressure*. This is the "holes" version, I've not tried the pumice version. Also if I crank it up to high the gas jet ignites. I was told that it is best to use stainless rather than copper for the burner, as it doesn't hold the heat and warm up the gas, so making it susceptible to flash over.

*3) Leaking joints.* And one port on the engine leaks too much to be able to use it as the input port. So I'll just have to work through them.

The consequence of these points it only runs briefly, and only in one direction. 

Ill work on these points and I still need to do the cladding, but Id say thats about as far as this post needs to go for now I'll close it here

So

Thanks to Firebird for encouraging me to write this all up. Doing it made me keep going and make sure I did the best job I could.

Thanks to everybody who gave me tips and advice on the way, Firebird and Bogstandard come to mind in particular, but there were plenty of others as well.

And last but not least thanks to everybody else whose posts encouraged me to keep going 

Thats all folks.. at least until the next time.


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## Deanofid (Apr 11, 2010)

I do hope you'll show us more when you get the little diddles sorted out, DT. It looks good, and it steams up to run your engine. Don't forget us!

Dean


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## zeeprogrammer (Apr 11, 2010)

doubletop  said:
			
		

> Although it ran it was pretty unspectacular.



Not from my perspective. That was spectacular and deserves congratulations.
It's a great looking boiler and display.
I've enjoyed this thread.
Thanks for sharing.


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## steamer (Apr 11, 2010)

Sounds like normal debug to me. We've all had some to do

Great video and congratulations on a job well done!

Dave


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## 4156df (Apr 11, 2010)

Very nice engine/boiler set-up. I second the request for another video when you finish your final de-bugging. Thanks for posting.
Dennis


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## doubletop (Apr 12, 2010)

4156df  said:
			
		

> Very nice engine/boiler set-up. I second the request for another video when you finish your final de-bugging. Thanks for posting.



I do promise to post a final video when the engine runs well.

In the meantime I've also just had another run through this posting and now realize some of the icons on this forum who have taken the time to comment on my efforts. Some of you guys produce some outstanding stuff and there are some gems behind your postings. Only today I noticed this link in Deanofids footnote http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/projects.html

Its well worth a detour........


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## firebird (Apr 12, 2010)

Well done DT, nice job :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers

Rich


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## Deanofid (Apr 12, 2010)

Very kind of you, DT. Thank you.

I'm sure any more pics or videos you would like to put up will be well received. I always enjoy a boiler build, and this has been a darn good one!

Dean


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## doubletop (Apr 19, 2010)

I've had some success with the safety valve and made a new burner to get some more heat into the boiler. I can now get the pressure up to about 45psi. So here's the latest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNFx0TZUD54

Once face of the port isn't sitting properly so the steam is escaping from there and not going up the exhaust pipe. You can condensed water dribbling down the face of the engine.

Of course cladding the boiler and lagging the pipes will help with the heat retention. To (mis)quote somebody "These things are heat engines not steam engines"


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## Blogwitch (Apr 19, 2010)

DT,

Usually, where people go wrong when running an oscillator (wobbler) on steam is that they feed too high a pressure to the engine, and the spring and port faces on the engine act like another low pressure safety valve and release steam to atmosphere.

The cure isn't to tighten up the port face spring tension, as most people attempt to do, as all that does is to increase the friction of the engine, and so requires even more steam to turn it over, so the boiler very quickly can't keep up with the engine. A catch 22 situation can occur if you do that. 

You know that the engine will turn over freely, and run quite merrily on a low volume and pressure, so the easiest way is to put a small steam cock valve in the line from the boiler to the engine, before the control valve, so that you can easily control the maximum flow to the engine.

By fine tuning that steam valve, you can get it set so that the engine only gets the steam it really requires, no more, no less. 

You should end up with a well running, very smooth engine, which stays a lot cleaner, with the added bonus of the boiler should be able to easily keep up with the supply of steam to the engine, in fact, usually you will need to turn the burner down as the boiler will most probably be producing more steam than is really required.

This is an extract from the instructions I used to send out with my own built engines.



> I advocate the use of TWO steam shutoff/control valves, one near or on the boiler and another just before the engine lubricator. The one on the boiler should be used as a shutoff valve, it will allow you to build up steam without letting any wet condensate to the engine and also use as a shutoff to the engine to allow you to top up the lubricator without turning off the boiler. The second one near to the engine is used as a steam regulator, to allow the correct quantity of steam to the engine, and once set is never altered. How many times have you seen a model steam engine blowing steam from all its port faces, there is no need for this, adjust the steam control valve until the engine runs smoothly with no blowout, you will use a lot less fuel and water, the engine won't get as dirty. Many people think you will get more power out of the engine, you won't because it is running inefficiently.



At the bottom in the two pics, of two of my customers installations, it shows the valve I am on about. What they don't show are the control valves also on the boiler, as mentioned in the text extract.

Hope this helps.


Bogs


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## doubletop (Apr 19, 2010)

Bogs

Its as exactly as you describe it, and you may notice I have tried increasing the port face spring tension by the inclusion of a length of 1/4" copper pipe!! The steam valve I am using doesn't provide much control being just about on or off and nothing in between, but I did find it in the junk box. 

Your suggestion gives me an idea and I may look at modifying the port switch I have made and include an adjustable restrictor on the inlet port. Maybe just by using an Allen head screw turned to a taper. I'll look into it.

I do still have an issue with the way port faces align which I also need to look into. Currently it doesn't allow me to use the other port as an inlet as steam pressure just dumps.

Once again thanks for your advice. I have no idea what stage of my build would be at if it wasn't for this forum, probably "junk" and I'd be returning to electronics.

Pete


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## Deanofid (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks for the new video, Pete!

Your outfit sure looks good from where I'm sitting. You might need to do a light face job on the mating surfaces of the cylinder and main ports, keeping them square to the cylinder mounting shaft. There are always a couple of details to getting all the parts happy with one another, but it looks like you're close to having it licked.

Bogs' advice is right on about the spring pressure. Sometimes that detail seems counter-intuitive, but it makes a difference. 

Keep at it. I'd be happy to see yet another video of this neat steam plant. Very nice, I think.

Dean


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## doubletop (Apr 20, 2010)

The cylinder spindle wasn't quite square, one of my early days efforts, I've removed the 3mm spindle and drilled and tapped for 4BA and replaced. As Bogs suggested slacking off the spring pressure and lowering the output pressure of the steam and it runs a lot longer now. 

Current issues are:

1) The steam exhaust is fed to the flue. the first steam condenses on the way back to the flue and a the subsequent glob of water then puts out the burner! Current remedy remove the exhaust pipe from the flue.

2) The steam removes the lubrication from the engine so it sizes up after a while. Current remedy, include some lube holes here and there. change from 3 in 1 oil as its probably too light. Consider an oiler

3) minor leaks here and there in the pipework. Remedy strip down and fix.

So it all in bits, right now, and pipework in the pickle ready for re soldering.


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## Blogwitch (Apr 20, 2010)

Just to clear up a couple of your problems Pete.

1) If you had a vertical firetube boiler rather than a straight thru chimney, that wouldn't be a problem, but as you know, the straight down chimney will cause you a problem. But also there is a safety issue to contend with here, when first firing up the boiler and feeding steam to the engine, you must ensure no-one is near to the funnel outlet. I have seen plumes of steam and scalding hot water rising to about 10ft in some cases. But to get back to your problem of the burner going out, just feed the tube onto the outside of the chimney rather than inside, it gives exactly the same effect when running.

2) You really do need to fit an inline lubricator, and use the correct STEAM OIL. Normal oil is absolutely no use for running a steam engine on steam.

http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/faqs.htm#14

Go down the page on here, and it shows everything you need to make a working displacement lubricator. You can make either the inline or offset, they both work as well as each other. You could even modify it a bit and put a drain in the bottom, to save having to use a syringe to get the water out.

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic7859-0-asc-15.php

3) Only you can do that


Bogs


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## doubletop (Apr 20, 2010)

Once again thanks for the advice. I had come to the conclusion to run the exhaust away from the flue and had already removed the pipe and re-routed outside the flue. What I was considering was running the exhaust inside the flue but it being the full length up to the top of the flue, however I wasn't aware of the potential for jets of scalding water.

Again I had also realized I needed a lubricator (I'd called it an oiler). I know Firebird had made one but was skipping that step to getting it running. Thanks for the links, it needs to be next on the to-do list. They don't look to be too difficult to run up so it could be done soon.The 3 in 1 was the easiest thing to grab once I had steam up and realized the problem I'll try and source steam oil my local MES should be able to help. In the meantime I'll try some mountain bike oil its has a high water resistance and as I don't have a super heater carbonizing won't be a problem.


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## doubletop (Apr 25, 2010)

Ive not done an update on this for a few days as Ive been a bit distracted. On Wednesday I decided that I would buy the X3 mill Id been promising myself. So it was ordered on Thursday, delivered from Auckland on Friday (650kms away), stripped, cleaned, reassembled, installed and running by Saturday night. They do cover those things in a lot of gunk!

Anyway back to this; I have followed Bogs advice and made an oiler and a restrictor for my setup. 






The oiler is pretty much to Bogs drawing, but I made an inline version and used copper tube rather than brass to keep it simple, but also included a drain plug 

For the restrictor I modified the reversing valve I had made previously, by making a longer coupler for the inlet port. The coupler is drilled 2mm and a 3mm grub screw used as the valve. The tapping for the grub screw goes past 2mm bore so the steam can be completely shut off. The grub screw is installed with Loctite thread locker that makes it steam tight and allows initial adjustment.

By the way, the ball on the end of the reversing lever is a 1/4" torlon ball I had lying around and drilled 3mm part way through and a push fit on the 3mm lever.

Ive had it all together and running and both the oiler and restrictor work fine. Ill do a new video once Ive got everything cleaned up following making of new steam pipes. Currently its all stripped down again and in the pickle.

Pete


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## 1hand (Feb 22, 2011)

I realize this is an old thread but, Any Ideas on the max engine bore this boiler will run steady?


Thanks
Matt


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## doubletop (Feb 23, 2011)

Matt

Sorry I don't; but it would be fine for smaller engines. The engine I made this for was a 10mm bore and I have the safety set at 25psi which is good enough. It would run the twin cylinder french engine that has been made a few times on here. Getting up to 20mm bore may be pushing it, but that's a guess as I don't know. The trouble is vertical boilers aren't as efficient as horizontal boilers as the heat takes the shortest route upwards and out.

I'm sure somebody on here would have the full technical answer as it is possible to work out how much steam you need to produce for bore/stroke/speed/power output. These things are just energy conversion systems.

That probably didn't answer your question but if you were to suggest what size engine you were planning to use it on you could get a yes/no/maybe answer.

Pete


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