# Horsepower pony or clydesdale horses



## SmithDoor (Nov 1, 2018)

FYI

This what 1 horsepower=1.5 ponypower. 
Never found clydesdale horsepower

Dave


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## MachineTom (Nov 1, 2018)

A horsepower is based of the amount of work an average horse could do in 10 hours. This by the horse walking along a capstan bar. 
So the result was a horse could raise a 33000 lbs load one foot in one minute.  Of course not every horse can do that but thats the number to hit.


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## velocette (Nov 1, 2018)

Therefore 1 Small horse on a long capstan bar and running very fast = 1 Large Horse on a short capstan bar plodding slowly.
Then 1 Small Horse = Eastern Treadmill Motor  @ high RPM and then Large Horse = 6 pole  low RPM motor European.
"Never found clydesdale horsepower"  Pound for pound Weight probably the most powerful breed ever.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 2, 2018)

Actually, I live in what was known as a 'Gin Gan or Gin Gang' which was was a roundhouse actually attached to a farm and where a horse would slowly plod around a central point pole and winnow the seeds from the corn 

Norm


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## Cogsy (Nov 2, 2018)

velocette said:


> "Never found clydesdale horsepower"  Pound for pound Weight probably the most powerful breed ever.


I'd have guessed exactly the opposite myself. Law of inverse squares, etc. with the extra size and mass relative power is diminished. Like how if you enlarged a human to 50 feet tall they wouldn't have the muscle mass to support themselves. This is why fleas have the power to jump 100X their own height and ants can carry 10X their body weight in their mouth. So I would expect the short, stocky little pony breeds to be more powerful, pound for pound (but not total of course).


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## goldstar31 (Nov 2, 2018)

Of course, this Clydesdale horse thing stems from being 'brainwashed' by recent advertising and that comes from the book and play called 'Warhorse' which stems from the Centenary of the 1914-18 War.


N


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## velocette (Nov 2, 2018)

Having seen a horse with fleas on his back but never a flea with horses on his back then best we compare apples with apples 
You would not get much land ploughed in a day if you had to harness fleas or ants as it would take all day to get them harnessed up.
Two clydesdales will plough 1 acre a day


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## dkwflight (Nov 2, 2018)

Hi
You have been talking about the old standard for a horse power.
As a kid my Dad tried to explain the differences. he talked a bit about SAE hp.  So long ago I don't remember much of the conversation.


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## mohavegun (Nov 2, 2018)

I have long been aggravated by the term, Brake Horsepower, which is what the SAE guys (Standard Automotive Engineers) cam up with to describe the power output of gasoline automobile engines.  The old National Standard horsepower goes all the way back into steam days.  Difference is that "_Brake Horsepower_" it the load that is put on an engine running at a given speed that causes it to slow down where "_National Horsepower_" is much more conservative, it is the load that can be sustained without slowing or causing the engine or components to be overloaded or overheat.  This country's SAE gang came up with "_Brake Horsepower_" at or around the end of WWII in an effort to outdo each other to sell shiny new cars to the soldiers returning from the war, everyone got on the bandwagon and this was the end of truthful HP ratings on automobile engines.  Before WWII Ford flathead V-8 engines were honestly rated at say 45 HP but just after the war the BHP on the same engines became numbers like 80 to 95 HP (they quietly omitted the "B") so as to make everyone think they were getting something bigger and better.  In todays world, a 360 V8 gasoline engine typically is rated at over 300 HP while a 360 Diesel inline 6 engine is rated at 205 HP.  The gas engine bogs down on hills when pulling heavy loaded trailer but a similar vehicle, pulling same trailer with the Diesel just rolls right over the hill.  Generally speaking, engines that are rated at high speeds do not really make oodles and gobs of power while engines that have a lower speed at peak horsepower do.  Back in the steam engine days, National Horsepower was  rated by actual load on an engine, usually a fluid pump or large fan to determine just how much power the engine could deliver _continuously _without overloading.  When Chrysler introduced the Diesel powered Jeep Liberty I got all excited until I went to the dealership to look at one, it was less than 150 CU IN displacement and they claimed 175 HP output.  Liars!  The Ram diesel truck I bought at the same dealership 5 years before was 360 CU IN and honestly rated at 205 HP.   I used to own a truck that weighed over 33 tons loaded and it had a 165 HP Cummins Diesel (without a Turbo) in it and it did quite well with loads on hills.  
Just my 2 cents worth and end of my rant!


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## SmithDoor (Nov 2, 2018)

Clydesdale was KW truck of day
Poney worked in coal mines.
 The weight of clydesdale is 1,700 to 2,200 pounds

The weight of Pony is 500 to 900 pounds

Dave


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## Cymro77 (Nov 2, 2018)

The difference between a horse and a pony is determined by the height at the withers.  Ponies must be less than 14 hands. A hand equals 4 inches.   I have seen two horse hitches that could routinely out-pull a modern tractor. That is 2 horse power versus 40 or 50!


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## SmithDoor (Nov 2, 2018)

Do you information on draw bar pull of horses 

Dave 



Cymro77 said:


> The difference between a horse and a pony is determined by the height at the withers.  Ponies must be less than 14 hands. A hand equals 4 inches.   I have seen two horse hitches that could routinely out-pull a modern tractor. That is 2 horse power versus 40 or 50!


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## Cogsy (Nov 2, 2018)

velocette said:


> Having seen a horse with fleas on his back but never a flea with horses on his back then best we compare apples with apples
> You would not get much land ploughed in a day if you had to harness fleas or ants as it would take all day to get them harnessed up.
> Two clydesdales will plough 1 acre a day


Of course I have to agree the horses are a bit more powerful than the fleas, but you used the term "pound for pound". This allows the comparison of apples with oranges and is what the phrase was intended for (and the reason I assumed you used it).
What it means is that if we have, say a 500 pound horse that can pull 500 pounds (I like easy math) we get 500/500 = 1 pound of force per pound of horse. Now we can compare it to another horse that weighs 1000 pounds. If the second horse can pull 1200 pounds, then for each pound of horse you get 1200/1000 = 1.2 pounds per pound of horse, so pound-for-pound it is more powerful. However, if the second horse can only pull 900 pounds, we get 900/1000 = 0.9 pounds of force per pound of horse. The second horse is more powerful and can do more work, but pound-for-pound it's not as powerful as the 500 pound horse.
The reality is, because of the extra bone mass and larger musculature of larger animals which is required just to support and move the larger animal, pound-for-pound they are generally less powerful than small ones. I used the ant/fleas just to illustrate the principal. We use similar comparisons in engines, cars, motorbikes, etc. and just call it power to weight ratio.
Now if you used the pound-for-pound term in error and just mean the Clydesdale is the most powerful horse overall, then I have no idea - horses just aren't my thing!


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## velocette (Nov 2, 2018)

No facts claimed  just a little  word (((probably)))  in the first posting and an added aside "Having seen a horse with fleas on his back but never a flea with horses on his back then best we compare apples with apples 

Assumption is the mother of all misunderstanding


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## tornitore45 (Nov 3, 2018)

> So the result was a horse could raise a 33000 lbs load one foot in one minute.


  That translates to  lifting  76.09 Kg X 1 meter in 1 second.
In Europe High School 60 years ago 1HP was equivalent to 75 Kg x m /sec


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## ShopShoe (Nov 3, 2018)

Where are we going?  Perhaps this thread belongs in the  "Break Room?"

My Two Cents:

I have "heard," "read,"  or whatever that this kind of discussion about HP, at least in the USA, has lead small engines (lawnmowers and the like) to now be sold with displacement as the main "power" rating rather than the old "2.5 HP @3600 RPM" type description. So, now the unscientific can argue about whether a rating in cc is better than the same displacement described as Cu. In. As well, the marketing crowd likes to say "3.500" rather than "3.5" because there's more numbers in the first statement.

It's been too long since I was in school, but I'm sure someone here can chime in: Is the description of power as stated in other measurement systems or in other parts of the world moving to watts or some other mathmatically-derived or carefully-defined units?

--ShopShoe


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## nel2lar (Nov 3, 2018)

Shoes
I agree, a horsepower is a formula to be able to know what amount of power you need for your purpose. It really has nothing to do with breeds of horses.
Nelson


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## SmithDoor (Nov 3, 2018)

The formula came from horses

Dave 



nel2lar said:


> Shoes
> I agree, a horsepower is a formula to be able to know what amount of power you need for your purpose. It really has nothing to do with breeds of horses.
> Nelson


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## goldstar31 (Nov 3, 2018)

SmithDoor said:


> The formula came from horses
> 
> Dave



Perhaps a little reading about James Watt might not come amiss.

Of course, he was friends with Adam Smith who wrote the Classic 'Wealth of Nations' and both were at the time of what probably was the end of the 7th Agrarian Revolution(?) and the birth of the Industrial Revolution when steam became master. Watt certainly did the calculations of 'horsepower' as a measured force.

Of course he and the Clydesdale Horse came what was then Clydesdale and not 'Glasgow' but as a Sassenach and not a Gael, I'll leave the further research to enjoy.

Slange Var

Norm


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## lennardhme (Nov 3, 2018)

Hi all,
Wow, this is a subject I had not thought to see on this forum, one that brings back fond memories.
As a child in London, my first paid job in life was to brush down my Uncles two Shire horses on the way to school. Shires are the British heavy horse [& most 'old 'countries have their own breed.]  My next paid job was  to lead barge horses over a humpback bridge, then harness the horse to an endless rope to haul the barge  under the bridge. These were mainly Clydesdale horses [the Scots heavy horse]  I was about 8yo then. Then came a long break from horses till my final business before retirement which was conducting horse drawn carriage tours around Raymond Island. An island in the Gippsland Lakes area of Victoria Au.  which was inhabited by a large colony of Koalas, which attracted a lot of overseas tourists. A great occupation & one I would hardly call work.
So, to correct a few misconceptions.....
Warhorse . The horse featured in the film was, I think, a Waler [or similar]. Not a heavy [ or drought] horse at all; but quite stocky.
The term HP  was derived from a CLYDESDALE horse raising a given weight vertically over a given distance & time.These figures have been mentioned elsewhere.
My interest in horses these days is minimal - I have an interest in a stud breeding Percherons, a French breed of heavy horse, but only as a part owner. Carriage building & repairs, farrier work & forging were all part of the occupation & added to my knowledge base. A great time in my life.
cheers,
Lennard.


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## Entropy455 (Nov 3, 2018)

One beagle-power is equal to lifting 7 pounds, 1-foot, in one second. . . .


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## Entropy455 (Nov 3, 2018)

On a more serious note: one horsepower is lifting 33,000 pounds, one foot, in one minute. In rotational power, a 33,000 pound rotation about a circle (i.e. 2*pi radians) is where the 5252 is derived within the rotational horsepower equation (i.e. take 33,000, and divide it by 2*pi).

The original horsepower value, as defined by Watt, was very conservatively rated - for the purpose of selling more steam engines. . . If you worked a horse at one horsepower, it would likely die within an hour.

Small gasoline engines in the US are rated for peak horsepower (i.e. take rated power, and multiply by square-root of one-half, to get actual power). This is very irritating. Electric motors however are rated for actual RMS power. I still like the idea of beagle power (tough little dogs. . . .)


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## Cogsy (Nov 3, 2018)

ShopShoe said:


> Where are we going?  Perhaps this thread belongs in the  "Break Room?"
> 
> My Two Cents:
> 
> ...


You're right, the break room is a better fit for this thread so I've moved it.

Here in Australia, cars are advertised in kW, although it's rarely mentioned at all, except for the ultra-high performance cars. Electric motors are always sold by kW rating. Small engines like fire-fighting pumps and the like are still sold in horsepower ratings though, and things like lawnmowers just have their displacement in cc's mentioned but no other power info at all.


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## velocette (Nov 3, 2018)

Hi Dave
I believe your question has been answered in many roundabout ways that 1 Clydesdale = 1 Horse Power but you knew this all along.
In my distant past I had the pleasure and the pain of using a pair of Clydesdale Horses side by side and one in traces and one in heavy harness between the shafts.

Thanks lennardhme for the trip back down memory lane when Interweb  and it's many experts and their biased opinions abound  with myself included now did not exist.


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Nov 4, 2018)

Now we come to the difference between "Horse Power", Brake Horse Power and Nominal Horse Power.
Nominal Horse Power was introduced by the makers of traction engines when Farmers or Hauliers wanted
to know how much work could the new fangled machines do compared to a horse. An "Alchin" or a "Fowler" 
or "Marshall" were rated at 4-9 nominal horse power to give the country yokels an idea of just how much the traction
engine could actually do. So now i have thrown another "H.P." into the ring lets make something out of it.


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## ARUP (Nov 4, 2018)

Funny thread! Now... let's steer it to 'torque'! lol
P.S.- Beagles are great!


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## Cymro77 (Nov 6, 2018)

SmithDoor said:


> FYI
> 
> This what 1 horsepower=1.5 ponypower.
> Never found clydesdale horsepower
> ...



Dave,
Recorded 8,000 pounds pull single horse, 24,000 pounds in two horse hitch.


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## Entropy455 (Nov 9, 2018)

The early high-demand need for steam engines was for mining ore. Prior to steam engines you had teams of horses lifting ore-bucket from mineshafts.

Then comes the steam engine - where a 10 horsepower unit will lift 5500 pounds one foot per second, 24 hours a day, non-stop - an effort that would likely kill 10 horses, 100 times over. . . .


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## goldstar31 (Nov 9, 2018)

Entropy455 said:


> The early high-demand need for steam engines was for mining ore. Prior to steam engines you had teams of horses lifting ore-bucket from mineshafts.
> 
> Then comes the steam engine - where a 10 horsepower unit will lift 5500 pounds one foot per second, 24 hours a day, non-stop - an effort that would likely kill 10 horses, 100 times over. . . .



Of course James Watt was manufacturing steam engines precisely for that need. Of course, steam power was also need to pump water out of coal mine workings.  I recall my father and uncle worked in a colliery that took all the underground water for what people knew as the Great Whinsill Dyke that  formed the Roman Wall from
Carlisle to Wallsend on the River Tyne and  which inevitably became the Farne Island and the Holy Island or Lindisfarne.  Oddly, George Stephenson of Locomotive fame lived only yards from where to outfall of water was made into the river.

Naturally, there were lots of ponies living underground for 51 weeks a year pulling 'tubs' of coal to the coal shaft bottoms and taking the empty tubs 'in bye' driven often by boys of 12 or 13. A pony would stay as the boy's friend until he retired at 65.

So I did know a lot about ponies and as a small boy worked on the local farm during the war.
Somehow, I think that these seemingly large numbers of 'Clydesdales' is a bit exaggerated. I never saw one  but at one point there was perhaps no more than 200 in total in the UK ans as such was a dying breed.
We are celebrating the Centenary of the Armistice of 1917 and at the end of the Great War, few horses were brought back from France and Belgium.  They were simply slaughtered and the French still import worn out old nags and eat them.

We, that is the UK, simply ate anything which was edible in WW2. I recall eating whale meat in pies and I have no doubt that horses simply supplemented our meagre rations.  I do recall that as a Goldstar that we virtually lived on  Australian Jack rabbit and ships biscuits from lifeboats.

My experiences- others may have other experiences.

Norm


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## lennardhme (Nov 9, 2018)

Hi Goldstar 31.
these seemingly large numbers of 'Clydesdales' is a bit exaggerated
Certainly not the case here in Oz;  in the  early 1900's more than 70,000   Clydesdales were recorded as working horses, plus no doubt as many more that were not. A high no. considering the human population at the time.
Clydies built this country [being mostly rural based in those days] & at present I an looking at a pic. of a team of 42 hauling the largest steam boiler in Australia at the time, over some very precarious dirt roads, up to the great gold mining town of Walhalla.
Clydies are very well regarded here; & 2 things will still draw a crowd..... a steam locomotive & a team of Clydesdales, of which we have a particularly famous brewery team.
I commiserate with your memories  of rabbit. I still cant stand the things even now!
cheers.
Lennard.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 10, 2018)

Lennard,
                 I'm indebted to you as my knowledge of OZ is quite limited. 
So I have a date to go over the Tasman in 2020 and probably stopovers in HK and 'Oz'.
I might actually see a Clydesdale in the flesh.

Cheers and Thanks

Norm


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## lennardhme (Nov 10, 2018)

Norm, stay in touch, perhaps we can meet up.
We have a Clyddie about 1-5 k's down the road who clip clops past  our place & my wife & I often go for a ride in their carriage. Can certainly arrange to get  you up close & comfortable.
We live in the Strezlecki ranges  [Victoria] & the scenery around here is rural & quite spectacular.
cheers from Lennard.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 10, 2018)

Thanks for what sounds a great idea.

Norm


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