# Karl Benz engine 1886



## gg89220 (Jan 4, 2019)

hello
I bought the motor kit to scale 1/3 scale


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## joerom (Jan 4, 2019)

Hello,
   What is that motor kit, and what scale is it..I have always liked that engine......


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## gg89220 (Jan 4, 2019)

scale 1/3
https://www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen...nungsmotoren/verbrennungsmotor-karl-benz.html


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## joerom (Jan 4, 2019)

Thanks for posting..I really need to stop looking at all these things, because I could not possibly finish what I have now, and then see more things I need...……..


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## Barnbikes (Jan 4, 2019)

Wish they shipped to USA


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## gg89220 (Jan 5, 2019)

hello
 machining, cylinder, cylinder head, pulley, water tank


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## gg89220 (Jan 12, 2019)

hello
following the machining


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## Divingbob311 (Jan 12, 2019)

Looking great,  I will be following your build.  Do the plans call for the ignition and bevel gear arraingment to be like the original, like in the video you posted? I have seen some of these models built with a slight variation.


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## gg89220 (Jan 13, 2019)

hello
on the plans the ignition is fixed under the steering wheel


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## gg89220 (Jan 17, 2019)

hello
carburetor and muffler


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## Divingbob311 (Jan 18, 2019)

Nice job.


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## TonyM (Jan 19, 2019)

I shall be watching this one with interest. It looks like it might go well into a scale car.  Also that company might be of use to me with my latest project as they offer bespoke casting services.


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## gg89220 (Jan 24, 2019)

hello
finished engine


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## Taff (Jan 25, 2019)

Wow you’ve done a great job, beautiful looking engine.
About 6 months ago I made a Benz Patent Wagon, a static version out of scrap wood and copper wire, no plan just pictures.
Would love to build a working version like yours.
Well done sir .


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## k2steve (Jan 25, 2019)

I am looking for a finish for my next build, Is your Karl Benz powder coated or painted?


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## gg89220 (Jan 25, 2019)

hello


k2steve said:


> coated or painted?


painted
I planned to do the car 1/3


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## Divingbob311 (Jan 25, 2019)

Great job, looks great.  Did you make the bevel gears?  When are you going to post a video of it running?


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## gg89220 (Jan 26, 2019)

hello
yes I machined the bevel gears with a strawberry for spur gear, the video this weekend.


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## gg89220 (Jan 28, 2019)

hello
modified intake exhaust pipe       
  the video


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## Taff (Jan 28, 2019)

Excellent work, loved the video of the engine running.


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## Lozza1950 (Feb 1, 2019)

Barnbikes said:


> Wish they shipped to USA


Wish they would ship to Australia. I even arranged for them to ship to local address DHL who would complete all paper work they still wouldn’t ship


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## Divingbob311 (Feb 1, 2019)

Great job.  Video is awesome.  Thanks for posting.


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## Brian Hutchings (Feb 2, 2019)

I don't need another project, yet, but if  I did this would be it. Maybe in a year or so.
Brian


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## TonyM (Feb 2, 2019)

I decided to go for it. Unfortunately they are on back order so while I wait for the castings I decided to draw up a 1/3 scale wagon to fit the engine to. There is a huge amount of info on the web but not too much in the way of useful drawings. There seem to be a few variations with various reproductions and Mercedes aren't very forthcoming with info. Nevertheless this is the story so far.  I wont hijack this thread any more and when I start the project proper I will start a new thread.


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## gg89220 (Feb 2, 2019)

hello
car construction


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## TonyM (Feb 3, 2019)

Great job. You are more advanced with your build than I imagined.  I haven't seen the old photo before. There is a bit of detail there that really helps. Thanks.

Tony


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## gg89220 (Feb 9, 2019)

hello
progress of work


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## Wiff (Feb 9, 2019)

Bravo..wunderschön!


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## Divingbob311 (Feb 9, 2019)

Coming along very nicely.  Impressive work.


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## Antonio (Feb 9, 2019)

*Salve e stupenda, e possibile avere i disegni di questo meraviglioso progetto. Grazie attendo risposta in attesa saluti da ITALY. Antonio.*


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## gg89220 (Feb 9, 2019)

Non ho piani della macchina, solo un modello in scala 1/8 o alzo le dimensioni


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## gg89220 (Feb 12, 2019)

hello
Differential realization


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## gg89220 (Feb 16, 2019)

hello
machining sprockets,12 and 48 teeth


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## Divingbob311 (Feb 17, 2019)

Fantastic work.


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## CFLBob (Feb 18, 2019)

Beautiful work!  

I'm wondering how I missed it up until now.


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## gg89220 (Feb 27, 2019)

hello
the last parts before dismantling and painting


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## gg89220 (Mar 8, 2019)

hello
painting and final assembly


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## Cogsy (Mar 8, 2019)

A truly outstanding job.


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## TonyM (Mar 9, 2019)

Wonderful job. I can't wait to see it running. 
I am still waiting for news on the castings. Extremely grateful to Torsten for sending me the drawings while I am waiting.


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## ZAPJACK (Mar 9, 2019)

Great job Gégé. Like usual...
LeZap


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## minh-thanh (Mar 9, 2019)

Great !! waiting to see it running.


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## Lloyd-ss (Mar 9, 2019)

Very nice work, and thanks for the video.  This sort of thing is inspiring!


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## Divingbob311 (Mar 9, 2019)

Beautiful!


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## gg89220 (Mar 16, 2019)

hello
here is the video


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## gunner312 (May 12, 2019)

I really wish the company that makes this would ship to the US. I'd buy a kit in a heartbeat. 
I was stationed in Mannheim, Germany and I've seen the one in the museum there. I wish I could even get the plans for it. I can understand enough German (I think) to make one. I contacted the company and they won't sell just the plans. -Sigh.


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## Antonio (May 12, 2019)

salve vedi www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen.de/shopping in Germany saluti da Antonio Italy.


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## gg89220 (May 12, 2019)

hello
kit motor to be machined  270€


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## gg89220 (May 12, 2019)

hello
https://www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen...nungsmotoren/verbrennungsmotor-karl-benz.html
270€


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## lalith (May 12, 2019)

gunner312 said:


> I really wish the company that makes this would ship to the US. I'd buy a kit in a heartbeat.
> I was stationed in Mannheim, Germany and I've seen the one in the museum there. I wish I could even get the plans for it. I can understand enough German (I think) to make one. I contacted the company and they won't sell just the plans. -Sigh.




They ship to USA. I wrote to them in English and they replied in German. Used the google translator to translate the message. It takes about 3 to 4 weeks once the order is placed to make it ready. I ordered the full kit with accessory package. The cost is Euro 470 shipped to GA, USA. You pay once the kit is ready. The payment is through a direct bank transfer. They don't accept PayPal. The replies were very prompt and courteous. The web page can be viewed in English using the google translator tools.
https://www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen...nungsmotoren/verbrennungsmotor-karl-benz.html


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## TonyM (May 13, 2019)

I bought the castings a couple of months ago. I had to wait a while for them as he was out of stock but as you said very courteous and responded promptly to emails.
While I have been reorganising the workshop and waiting for tooling I have checked the drawings and castings. I found are a couple of errors on the plans so far but nothing that would cause major problems in manufacture.
Also if you intend to make an accurate scale model of the car as I do, then these plans show the bevel gears reversed from the engine shown in the videos in post 3 and post 25 which are as per the original. I think this has been done to utilise a standard gear set.  In these plans the gear is shown next to the pulley facing away from it. There will be a bit of modding to do to the mounting plate and associated parts or to the bevel gear.  I haven't got round to checking these yet. Also the crank should be extended a bit to reach the lower support bearing if putting the engine in a car.


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## MrMetric (May 28, 2019)

OK... I've got a thought.  If I were to arrange the purchase of five engines to be shipped to the US, would there be sufficient interest to justify this?  I am guessing that the cost would be between $450 and $500 when all is said and done (tariffs, shipping, etc), excluding shipping within the US itself to people interested in the engine.

If there is no interest, then I won't pursue it.

EDIT:
Well, that was fast... Apparently I didn't see the message about them shipping to the US.  But, I guess the question changes to... I might be able to reduce the cost of shipping by aggregating the expense across the pond.  Or... perhaps it isn't worth the effort.


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## Edward Perera (Apr 18, 2020)

Hi, GG89220,
I am writing to you from Sri Lanka.
I had been going through your thread quite a number of times, and got inspired by your excellent workman ship.
Already I have purchased the kit and nearing completion.
I would really appreciate if you could enlighten me on the following:

Does this engine require a petrol vapour (surface) carburetor, along with the carburetor designed for it ? 
I realize that this engine has a very low compression ratio. Is it correct and OK ?
Could you please send me some instructions on starting the engine ?

As the supplied documents were in German, I had some difficulty when translating.

Thanks and Regards,
Edward Perera


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## gg89220 (Apr 18, 2020)

hello
I made the carburetor as on the plan no problem.
compression is sufficient
I start by launching the steering wheel by hand, plug the carburetor with a finger for 1a 2 turns to suck up the petrol.


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## Edward Perera (Apr 18, 2020)

gg89220 said:


> hello
> I made the carburetor as on the plan no problem.
> compression is sufficient
> I start by launching the steering wheel by hand, plug the carburetor with a finger for 1a 2 turns to suck up the petrol.


Hi,
Thank you very much for your prompt and encouraging reply.
I think that it will be possible to try out starting the engine soon.
In the mean time I will take some pictures and start posting as soon as possible.

Edward.


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## TonyM (Apr 19, 2020)

Edward. If you want something nearer to scale I made a more realistic spark plug.








The ceramic plug I got from  ignition electrode connection M4 L1 35mm 10343 | horecatiger  I just ground down the bottom part of the ceramic to 5mm Dia. with a diamond wheel on the dremel. The 4mm thread is screwed onto a 2.5mm thread. The electrode sits well down into the combustion chamber. Just not sure what to use to seal everything when it's bolted in place.

I will be using a surface carb similar to the benz but with my own internal design. A quick general question I have made a float. It is soldered both ends. Obviously the flux can't be removed from the inside. Does anyone see any problems with that or is there a better way to make a float.


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## Edward Perera (Apr 19, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> Hi,
> Thank you very much for your prompt and encouraging reply.
> I think that it will be possible to try out starting the engine soon.
> In the mean time I will take some pictures and start posting as soon as possible.
> ...


My first attempt in starting the engine was not very successful, mainly I think due to the incapability of the ignition units used.
The ignition units were meant to be used in my model rc aircraft. The firing was intermittent to nothing at all.
I believe a strong thick spark is essential in this particular engine, that is why I could see a large HT coil illustrated in the TS site.

Please advice.


TonyM said:


> Edward. If you want something nearer to scale I made a more realistic spark plug.View attachment 115536
> 
> View attachment 115537
> 
> ...


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## Edward Perera (Apr 19, 2020)

Your spark plug is very tempting. I will also build one after solving my present problems. 
How is the work on the wagon proceeding. I have temporarily stop the work on the wagon due to lack of material, and have to wait till  the Lock Down is lifted.
Sorry, I am unable to comment on the floater that you are making at the moment.
When are you going to start your thread on building the wagon?


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## TonyM (Apr 20, 2020)

I am struggling to get materials these days so everything has slowed right down. I am making the surface carb just now and when I know it works OK I will start a new thread. You are way further ahead than me with both the engine and the wagon..


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## Edward Perera (Apr 23, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> My first attempt in starting the engine was not very successful, mainly I think due to the incapability of the ignition units used.
> The ignition units were meant to be used in my model rc aircraft. The firing was intermittent to nothing at all.
> I believe a strong thick spark is essential in this particular engine, that is why I could see a large HT coil illustrated in the TS site.
> 
> Please advice.



Hi gg89220,

Good news. I got the engine running. The main problem was in my ignition unit. It was replaced with an automotive ignition coil and the engine ran nicely.
Made a few short runs with butane Gas, and with petrol using a Jan Ridders universal vapour  carbeurator.  The carb mentioned in plans was not very successful 
in today's runs. May be I will try later.

Pictures and a video clip will be posted in the near future.

Thanks very much for your support.

Edward.


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## higbyrichard (May 28, 2020)

Edward Perera said:


> Hi gg89220,
> 
> Good news. I got the engine running. The main problem was in my ignition unit. It was replaced with an automotive ignition coil and the engine ran nicely.
> Made a few short runs with butane Gas, and with petrol using a Jan Ridders universal vapour  carbeurator.  The carb mentioned in plans was not very successful
> ...



I too am looking at making this engine. Any chance of seeing your video of your final product.
Many thanks
Richard in Tasmania


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## Edward Perera (May 29, 2020)

higbyrichard said:


> I too am looking at making this engine. Any chance of seeing your video of your final product.
> Many thanks
> Richard in Tasmania



Hi, Richard,
Happy to hear the you are also interested in building this engine.
Most of the work with the engine is getting almost completed.
The link for the final video will be posted soon.

Edward.
Sri Lanka.


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## johwen (May 29, 2020)

joerom said:


> Hello,
> What is that motor kit, and what scale is it..I have always liked that engine......



Here is at translated description of the  engine casting set etc.
This model engine is a model-like replica, the engine that Karl Benz installed in his first motor car in 1886. This is a water-cooled single-cylinder, four-stroke engine with intake valve. The exhaust takes place via an exhaust valve inserted in the cylinder head. The slide as well as the outlet valve are driven by a control shaft. The motor vehicle was driven by a pulley, also wedged on the control shaft. The dimensions of the engine correspond to a scale of approx. 1/3. This model engine is for operation with commercially available mixed gas
(Propane / butane). As in the original, the cooling takes place with water, which circulates in the cylinder due to the temperature difference. Due to its small cooling surface, the engine is not designed for higher speeds in continuous operation. The cast part set of this model motor contains 7 unprocessed cast parts in cast aluminum and gray cast iron, one piece of cast round for the liner and the drawing documents.
Parts still required for assembly such as piston rings, spark plugs, ignition coils and etc. can be found under "Engine accessories" and can be ordered at the same time. The price nominated on the web site is 290Euro plus postage
From JohnSamphier member.


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## johwen (May 29, 2020)

If you have trouble translating, Google have a built in translator that you can post script or just single word for translation into English.

John Samphier


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## wrench1973 (Oct 23, 2020)

HI group, is anyone still on this thread. I am wanting to embark on a very slow journey of building a full scale replica of this amazing car, but am struggling to find any specificate plans, drawings and dimensions etc....I even tried finding the dimensions on a scale model but can not get any help. Is there anyone on here that has full scale or 1/3 scale numbers on size, dimensions etc etc that could help me out. Thanking you all for any help. Cheers from Australia  Oct 2020


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## gg89220 (Oct 23, 2020)

hello wrench 1973
rear wheel Ø 1140 mm
front wheel Ø 720 mm
wheebase  1450 mm
track width 1190 mm
Mercedes-Benz: Benz Patent Motor Car.


			https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/course/24-681/handouts/mesh-based%20modeling/first-car.pdf


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## wrench1973 (Oct 23, 2020)

gg89220 said:


> hello wrench 1973
> rear wheel Ø 1140 mm
> front wheel Ø 720 mm
> wheebase  1450 mm
> ...




gg89220....Sir you are a LEGEND...thank you so very much for that information, I really do appreciate your help. 

Thanks again 
wrench1973


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## Swenjoy (Dec 16, 2021)

gg are you able to give me the bevel gearing sizes  i believe one is module1 30 tooth  but the other i have no size for.  also the diff gears are you able to give me details of
thanking you in anticipation
Swen


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## Swenjoy (Dec 16, 2021)

Wrench, i am in Australia also, way down in sunny Vic perhaps we could share info


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## jamesmattioli (Dec 17, 2021)

johwen said:


> Here is at translated description of the  engine casting set etc.
> This model engine is a model-like replica, the engine that Karl Benz installed in his first motor car in 1886. This is a water-cooled single-cylinder, four-stroke engine with intake valve. The exhaust takes place via an exhaust valve inserted in the cylinder head. The slide as well as the outlet valve are driven by a control shaft. The motor vehicle was driven by a pulley, also wedged on the control shaft. The dimensions of the engine correspond to a scale of approx. 1/3. This model engine is for operation with commercially available mixed gas
> (Propane / butane). As in the original, the cooling takes place with water, which circulates in the cylinder due to the temperature difference. Due to its small cooling surface, the engine is not designed for higher speeds in continuous operation. The cast part set of this model motor contains 7 unprocessed cast parts in cast aluminum and gray cast iron, one piece of cast round for the liner and the drawing documents.
> Parts still required for assembly such as piston rings, spark plugs, ignition coils and etc. can be found under "Engine accessories" and can be ordered at the same time. The price nominated on the web site is 290Euro plus postage
> From JohnSamphier member.


Ciao , io sono interessato a questo modello,  mi sai dire dove si acquista?  Sito internet o link. Grazie


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## gg89220 (Dec 17, 2021)

hello
a conical torque of 15/30 teeth module 1 for the motor


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## gg89220 (Dec 17, 2021)

hello





						Verbrennungsmotor "Karl Benz"
					

Kraftwagenmotor "KARL BENZ"  		 			Bei diesem Modellmotor handelt es sich um den Vorbildähnlichen Nachbau, des Motors, welchen Karl Benz im Jahre 1886 in seinen ersten Motorwagen einbaute. Hierbei handelt es sich um einen ...



					www.ts-modelldampfmaschinen.de


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## mrehmus (Dec 18, 2021)

Here is the first model I've seen. Centerfold in issue #25 of _Model Engine Builder_ magazine. It does run and is strong enough that his grandaughter could sit in the seat.


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## Swenjoy (Dec 20, 2021)

gg thankyou so much for the bevel gear info, i suspected it was a 2:1 ratio.    do you have the details of the differential gears.
thankyou
Swen


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## jamesmattioli (Dec 21, 2021)

gg89220 said:


> hello
> machining, cylinder, cylinder head, pulley, water tank


Ciao,  hai le foto della lavorazione del albero motore?  Sono un po in difficoltà per questo lavoro!  Come l'hai fatto?  Grazie mille


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## gg89220 (Dec 21, 2021)

hello
the crankshaft is produced by attached, pinned components, cut the through axis last. for the differential I put 4 bevel gears, 15 teeth,


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## jamesmattioli (Dec 22, 2021)

gg89220 said:


> hello
> the crankshaft is produced by attached, pinned components, cut the through axis last. for the differential I put 4 bevel gears, 15 teeth,


L'albero motore ha solo perni di fissaggio a pressione?  O anche saldatura a ottone?


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## gg89220 (Dec 22, 2021)

fit tight pins plus chamfer for brazing if necessary


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## jamesmattioli (Dec 22, 2021)

gg89220 said:


> fit tight pins plus chamfer for brazing if necessary


Ok grazie mille


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## Swenjoy (Mar 7, 2022)

i have been thinking about how to make the wheel rims, can anyone offer me any suggestions


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## Eccentric (Mar 16, 2022)

Saw this yesterday at the Petersen Automotive Musuem.  Cool. (This is a replica)


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## William May (Mar 17, 2022)

Eccentric said:


> View attachment 135131
> 
> Saw this yesterday at the Petersen Automotive Musuem.  Cool. (This is a replica)


I think Mercedes built about 50 replicas a few years back. I went to an antique auto swap meet in Chickasha, Ok every year, and one of the treats was seeing some of the fabulous local car collections. One man had one of the Mercedes replicas of the Benz Motorwagen. He told me he had never driven it. it was just for show. (This individual has since passed away, and his entire collection has been sold off)  As far as I know, these replicas were fully functional and designed to be driven. The original Benz vehicle was taken on a fairly long trip by Benz's wife, to visit her mother, and I think the length was about 25 miles round trip. She did it by herself, and had no trouble during the trip.  So Benz built a good car, and the engineering was certainly sound. I would LOVE to drive one of these replicas one day. You can't get any further back in motoring history than that!


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## MIKE4444 (Mar 17, 2022)

EX MODEL


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## TonyM (Mar 17, 2022)

jamesmattioli said:


> Ciao,  hai le foto della lavorazione del albero motore?  Sono un po in difficoltà per questo lavoro!  Come l'hai fatto?  Grazie mille


 I only have a photo of the part finished crank but this is how I made it in one piece on my Warco 240.
 I roughed out the two end diameters leaving +2mm for cleaning up. Then holding the long end in collet chuck mounted in the four jaw to get the throw.  I machined the centre and inside faces of the flanges to width and to the large diameter. Patience is key here.  I then did the conrod dia to size.
I made two adjustable pieces to maintain the gap between the flange faces. (These were also used when profiling the flanges.)  A small alloy block drilled and tapped 6mm plus a 6mm bolt and backnut to lock. I superglued this between the flanges. Put the long end in the collet chuck and centre in short end and turned short end to size. Reversed and turned long end to size.


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## TonyM (Mar 18, 2022)

I found a pic of the finished crank too.


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## jamesmattioli (Mar 21, 2022)

TonyM said:


> I only have a photo of the part finished crank but this is how I made it in one piece on my Warco 240.
> I roughed out the two end diameters leaving +2mm for cleaning up. Then holding the long end in collet chuck mounted in the four jaw to get the throw.  I machined the centre and inside faces of the flanges to width and to the large diameter. Patience is key here.  I then did the conrod dia to size.
> I made two adjustable pieces to maintain the gap between the flange faces. (These were also used when profiling the flanges.)  A small alloy block drilled and tapped 6mm plus a 6mm bolt and backnut to lock. I superglued this between the flanges. Put the long end in the collet chuck and centre in short end and turned short end to size. Reversed and turned long end to size.  View attachment 135158


Grande bellissimo lavoro complimenti


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