# Learners Project - Simple Grinding Rest



## joco-nz (May 6, 2017)

Next little project that should result in a nice usable tool and progress general machining experience.

So the game plan is take these blanks




and turn them into this simple grinder rest as designed by Harold Hall (http://www.homews.co.uk/page146.html)






As you can see from the blanks I have lots of cleaning up and shaping to do.  The massive angle iron will get cut down to a circa 40x40 size with the cut-offs going into the steel collection bin for use at a later date.
I also have yet to cut off the round bar blanks but will get that done once I get some progress on rectangular parts.

Anyway, hope this little build and the resulting tool will be of interest to some people.  The plans are in Harold's book "Tool and Cutter Sharpening" which is #38 of the "Workshop Practices Series" if you are interested in dimensions etc.

Cheers,
James.


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## JCSteam (May 7, 2017)

Ive seen a couple of designs for file rest, this is possibly more complex than I've seen, but will be handy, due to the flexibility, most I've seen fix to the toolpost and consists of two ball bearings, I saw your toolmakers clamp in anther thread, and looking forward to seeing how this project turns out


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## joco-nz (May 8, 2017)

So to help me visualise how all the parts fit together and to allow me to convert some measurements to accomodate some slightly larger stock than the book plans suggest I have been modelling this in Fusion 360.  This also forces me to learn Fusion 360 as I see it as a useful tool for later CNC'ing of the Mill.  Since it can do both the CAD and the CAM parts of the process.  Anyway I digress.

This render gives a good view of how some of the parts below the table will fit together. The various screws etc are missing for clarity.




Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz (May 13, 2017)

Right - the start of a mostly sunny looking if cool Sunday down under in NZ.  Chips shall be made and the temptation to practice with my TIG welder will be ignored (repeat after me .... "it WILL be ignored").

So today will be trying to get as much metal shaped, drilled and countersunk as my slightly fried brain can achieve. renders of the rests top assembly (still missing a couple of bits) attached.   I'm quite looking forward to this tool being usable, its going to make shaping some HSS lathe tools I want to make much easier.


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## joco-nz (May 13, 2017)

The results of a whole lot of swarf - Some blanks all nicely machined to size ready to be blued and marked out.


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## Wizard69 (May 15, 2017)

Noce little project.  

Don't you just love Harold's; site so much information, knowledge and ideas.


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## joco-nz (May 15, 2017)

So the working week has started so just small steps over the next few days.  Got a couple of parts done tonight.  The two parts that form the vertical adjustment have been milled.  There is one lathe operation left to do but until I get the plastic ball delivered then no mad rush to do that.

Pic 1 & 2:
Chain drilling before finishing the slot with a 6mm carbide 4 flute end mill.






Pic 3:
The two parts side by side just to show I'm really making chips and not just doing model renders.


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## joco-nz (May 20, 2017)

Today was spent largely on another project needed to tidy up the mess of metal in the garage.  However after lots of TIG welding and a nearly equal amount of  :wall::rant:scratch.gifth_wtf1:redface2:  I hung up the TIG torch and played with the mill.

The result being I managed to get a couple more parts progressed.  The metal family is growing ...


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## kwoodhands (May 22, 2017)

James, I made the advanced grinder rest by Harold Hall. Turned out very well with a few changes. He calls for a slot cut in the shafts so a screw driver can hold the shaft while tightening the lever. I did this at first, then milled the round head to a rectangle .The shaft then fit between the slots in the arms and did not need a screwdriver to keep it from turning. Where Harold clamps a fence at the slots I dispersed with clamps. Instead I milled a small scrap . 249 wide and about .375 deep. I milled a .250 x .125 slot in the accessory plates. The scrap pieces were Loctited in the  accessory plates. No need to use a fence as the plate rides parallel to the slots.
The plans are in the Milling book by Harold Hall. So far I have also made the 4 facet drill grinding accessory. 
After screwing up a test drill numerous times I finally got it right. I changed the angles some what from the text to get it working for me. I ground about 10 drills from 5/16" to 15/16" with the 4 facet configuration. I tested each one in scrap steel. The 4 facet drills really bored quickly and was easier to start without a spotting drill than the two lip conventional way. 
I sharpen a few lathe tools too. I used the front of the wheel for lathe tools and the side for drills. Probably could have used the front or the side for both. I just followed the illustrations and pictures in  the book.
Making the parts was pretty straight forward. I work mostly in Imperial and converted the dimensions from metric. I did not have a variety of metric screws , thus converted to Imperial.
Only problem I had was the jibs. Finally tossed the jibs I made from steel and made new ones from brass. 
I used 6/32 cap screws for locking that I turned a sharp point on. The screws were turned by running them in  a drill against a spinning grinding wheel til the point was sharp. These screws dug into the brass jibs and when I backed them out left an impression. Took a bit of time to get the dovetails to run smoothly and keep the jibs from sliding out. 
You can probably grind everything on the original rest that I do on the advanced rest. 
mike


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## joco-nz (May 23, 2017)

Wrap-up from as at the end of the weekend ...
I was all gungho to do the dovetails thinking I could use an angle plate set in my vice at the correct milling angle then clamping the parts to this against a fence for reference.  The fence idea being that I could get one part all correctly aligned, clamp some steel as a fence on its base so I could mount the other parts for dovetailing in the same spot.

Anyway, it all came apart when I discovered the angle plate will not fit my vice.  Its 12mm to big.  So looks like I need to get a smaller one or come up with another method for accurately and repeatably mounting this stuff.

However no to be completely daunted I went on to do some other needed operations, some that needed to be done before putting angles on things.   So ... drilled and tapped some M5 holes and set up one of the risers that will clamp the 25mm plastic ball on the lathe faceplate (first time ever using this) and got the 30 degree chamber needed to clamp on the ball.

The pics ...

#1: Setting up the part and using a 6mm drill to help align the 6mm hole.  It wasn't perfect but for what it will be used for it should be fine.  Clamped this as best I could and given its not the most beautiful clamping job set about running at slow speeds (200rpm) and stopping between each cut to check everything was holding.



#2: The result.  While not the most polished lathe work it should do the job and to be honest a less than mirror finish on this clamping surface is probably a good thing.



#3: The M5 holes in all their glory.  These were drilled then power tapped on the mill at the slowest speed I have (60rpm).  Got to love gun taps.



#4: A little bit of a repeat but a nice closeup of the riser arm with the big 30 deg chamber at the top.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (May 28, 2017)

First off was setting up an angle plate with a reference fence to allow for the two outer dovetail blocks to be created exactly the same.

Setting the angle.



A pic to give a clearer view of the little fence I made to allow repeat setting of the blanks for the outside dovetail blocks.  I will also use the same setup with no movement for doing the inner dovetail block.



Getting the first part all clamped up and ready for milling.   Since the angle plate is a little "in the air" I am taking small nibbles from the top using a 10mm carbide end-mill at 0.3mm per cut to get rid of about 5mm then a final 0.1mm finishing pass to get to size.


Showing the clamp up using my toolmaker clamps.  These are starting to prove to be very useful little items.  I am going to need to make some more of these.





The cutting in flight, a nice little pile of swarf appearing.



The cut all finished in the clamp setup.



The two outer dovetail blocks finished up.



The two parts "nose to nose"  and looking nice an symmetrical.  But just how good was the setup for repeatability?



The two parts on a flat surface with 60 degree faces matched up to see how tight a fit they are ... don't know about you but these look pretty dang good  for something straight off a mill to me.


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## joco-nz (May 29, 2017)

The final part of the dovetails components is the sliding center piece.  This part will have the plastic ball attached which will form the main pivot point for the rest.
On the whole the fit between the parts is pretty close and things slide very smoothly.  Which is important as the recommendation is to NOT lubricate the dovetails due to all the grinding dust they is going to be about.

Pics attached.


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## h7eh7e (May 31, 2017)

Tell me please what kind of lathe you have.
As it is called.


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## ACHiPo (May 31, 2017)

Nice work and very well documented James.  Thanks!


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## joco-nz (Jun 1, 2017)

A small update since the garage is freezing tonight.

Completed the slot on the table top.  Pretty standard process of marking out the ends of the slot, chain drilling the slot then finishing it with a 6mm carbide end mill.

The picture shows the slot and the the dovetail parts placed in position on the underside of the grinding rest top.


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## joco-nz (Jun 1, 2017)

h7eh7e said:


> Tell me please what kind of lathe you have.
> As it is called.



Its an AL320G sold by Machinery House:  https://www.machineryhouse.co.nz/L141

Looking at the manual it looks like it is also referred to as a: CQ9332


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## joco-nz (Jun 3, 2017)

Some progress today with getting the dovetail blocks mounted on the underside of the rests top. The rest top is 6mm mild steel nominal value, actual size being 5.9mm after cleaning off the mill scale.  The M3 threaded holes are drilled 5.3mm deep and then threaded using a bottom tap.  The challenge here (per Harold's build instructions) is to get good thread engagement with the bottom tap from the start so as to maximise the amount of usable thread.  With the shape of the tap it looks like effective thread depth is about 4.5mm to 4.8mm.

So to solve this problem make a simple tapping jig that contains an M3 tapped hole which the M3 tap goes through.  Clamp it to the work and use the fact that the M3 tap will fed down into the hole at the correct rate to ensure a positive threading start from the beginning.

So now for the pics, cose we all want pics right?     th_wwp

Pic #1:
Shows the tapping jig and the Irwin tapping attachment I used to get a grip on the tap.  Given how thin the M3 tap is this is just turned by hand with no handle and that gives a really good feed for how much tension is on the wee tap.
In the background is the first stage of the process I am describing done with the back M3 screws in place.



Pic #2:
After referencing off the actual hole in the dovetail block the resulting hole drilled to 5.3mm depth and ready for tapping.



Pic #3 & 4:
The tapping jig mounted and ready to start.  You can see the nose of one toolmakers clamp used to hold things.  Really starting to love these wee clamps.  So useful.





Pic #5:
Moving on to the final hole and tapping operation pretty much done.  You can see the tapping oil around the hole.   The general approach was a drop of oil into the hole before putting the jig in place and some oil on the actual tap itself.



Pic #6:
The final product.  Dovetail blocks all mounted up and a nice clean sliding movement from the central block with the M6 screw protruding from it.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (Jun 4, 2017)

A little more progress, a lot of learning and fixing some alignment issues on the lathe.

Today was doing the other half of the ball clamping system and after liking the result cleaning up the original clamping part to be a better finish.  I also started some of the threaded rods that adjust things. Learning to turn such small diameters (6mm turned down to 5mm) was ultimately successful but the threading using my Frost dies was a failure as the first 5mm just got chewed up until the rubbish dies started to bite properly.

I also discovered quite a bad taper was being turned on the lathe.  Some checks showed things were not very flat.  Out by between 0.3 to 0.6 degrees in left-to-right and front-to-back respectively.  This was resulting in a taper of over 0.1mm across a very short distance.   Some adjustments with the digital level and I got the taper down to 0.01mm.  The only way I will get things better is to start using some shims between the lathe and the bench top. I'm quite keen to try and get this as good as I can so time to get some aluminium drink cans and start making some shims. 

Anyway on to the pics.   th_wwp

Pic 1:
Shows the underside with the plastic ball mounted and the (to be replaced) threaded rods in place.  If nothing else it has acted as a proof on their function and I know exactly how to go about making them for the next crack.



Pic 2:
Shows the setup for the final ball clamping part.  I figure out a way to get it clamped and not move about plus using the boring bar gave me the reach I needed to avoid bolt heads.



Pic 3:
The original clamping part in place and cleaned up using this clamping style. You can see a few slimmer clamps that are the beginnings of a low profile clamping set.  There is also a lone mill-clamp on the edge which was needed to balance out the weight on the face plate.



Pic 4:
The two clamping parts and the dovetail with plastic ball mounted.



Pic 5:
Simple "dry" assembly to show how things will get clamped.  Still need to make the spacer that will go at the base of the shorter clamp.



Cheers,
J.


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## Cogsy (Jun 5, 2017)

joco-nz said:


> was ultimately successful but the threading using my Frost dies was a failure as the first 5mm just got chewed up until the rubbish dies started to bite properly.


 
I have similar issues and find that cutting a gentle chamfer on the end of the rod to be threaded helps a lot. The die is allowed to gently and progressively engage and by the time maximum cutting force is needed there is enough engagement of the die to allow it to continue cutting. Once it's done I then clean up the tapered end. Some parts don't allow this method but for making bolts and the like it works just fine.

The other thing I do is turn the major diameter of the blank a little smaller than nominal. Say a 5mm 'bolt' I would turn the blank to 4.92ish, then run the die over it. Seems to make life a bit easier for the die and the results are acceptable (to me at least).


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## joco-nz (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks Cogsy.   I did put a pretty hefty 45 degree chamfer on things but not a taper.  I'm going to borrow a mates good HSS M5 die and try that while I wait for my own button die order to arrive. But the sacrificial taper could be a viable option on these parts.

Cheers,
James.


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## Cogsy (Jun 5, 2017)

I like to leave just a little of the taper unless thread engagement is going to be low, just for looks - not that anyone can see when the engine is assembled anyway. Here's the head bolts on my Rupnow Vertical, somewhat styled after red Holden head bolts, these are M5 as well:


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2017)

James
           I notice that you have 'discovered' the failings of dies which are really designed to re-furbish worn threads.   Ah well?

Probably the only wise solution is to screwcut and then use the incorrect die.

It does beg the question of whether your intended tool and cutter grinder will correct the small taper lead on dies or grind the proper cutting edges to worn dies.

If I recall, I DID suggest that you read Chaddock on his Quorn which deals with such matters. Of course, there are other solutions that come to mind.

Laughingly, I'm one of Imperial guys and  metric screwcutting on an imperial lathe with an imperial gear box is- well, a so and so.  Yea, got a 63 tooth and a pair of 21's and a metric banjo-- and no music for it:hDe:

Norm


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## joco-nz (Jun 5, 2017)

Norm -  The game plan is to get some proper button dies not these crap die nuts I have.  That should help solve things.  The grinding rest is not going to be of the capabilities of the Quorn, the casting for such a machine being rather pricy.  But it should do well for the bulk of what I am looking to achieve in the tool grinding/sharpening space.

In the area of screw cutting, fortunately I have a metric lathe so metric threads are pretty straight forward.  Imperial on the other hand seems to be a bit more approximate.

Cheers,
James.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 5, 2017)

joco-nz said:


> Norm -  The grinding rest is not going to be of the capabilities of the Quorn, the casting for such a machine being rather pricy. But it should do well for the bulk of what I am looking to achieve in the tool grinding/sharpening space.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Surprisingly, the Quorn has been fabricated many times and in addition, the Bonelle is designed to replace the Quorn which is expensive- for what it is.

Probably( ?), the trick is to make up a Quorn  spindle or failing this, the one for the Bonelle, or the Stent or in deed the Kennet.
All are a nominal 1" and will interchange--- and no castings!!!

Years before all this, I made up a tool post grinder which I had bought as a wood router. Further examination revealed that Robert Bosch had actually produced it as a tool post grinder. I'm not always unlucky!

Writing on a bit, there are several home made  t&c's which have/had a router as the motive power.

It's an interesting subject

Regards

N


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## joco-nz (Jun 5, 2017)

Norm - thanks for that as I was unaware of the Bonelle.  Now I sourced metric plans and a build guide.  Another project on the "must do as it's interesting" list.  :thumbup:


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## joco-nz (Jun 6, 2017)

I managed to borrow an nice HSS M5 button die from Bruce and decided to redo the last two threaded rods which had the nasty stripping of the  thread on the first 5mm or so of the thread.

So here a series of pics of the first one I re did.

Pic #1:
Setup of the 6mm stock with support to be turned down to 5mm.



Pic #2:
Turned down and ready for threading.



Pic #3:
And a threading we will go.



Pic #4:
And the results.   You can see the new part on the left.  Nice clean thread with a good start right from the beginning. The one of the right is the original and you can see how rubbish the first ~5mm is.  Stripped and just yuk.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (Jun 8, 2017)

The final threads in all their glory.   :thumbup:

Finished the long one tonight with my brand new HSS M5 button die. But after some TIG practice it just got too dang cold in the garage. So have to wait until tomorrow night for the next lot of stuff.

j.


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## bazmak (Jun 8, 2017)

years ago I had a lathe I bought at home in the shed specifically to do 
jobs for the co I worked for on the side.Paid for the lathe in no time
One particular repeat job was to put an M6 thread x 30mm lg on pieces 
of 6mm round bar nom 400mm lg.Tried all ways to get good consistent threads
With a dieholder in the tailstock I pushed on the job and let it pull the die and tailstock the reverse and push off.Also tried with the die holder in the toolpost
and fed on to the bar at the correct screwcutting feed then reverse off.The carbon steel dies did not last long before stripping threads.Had to use HSS dies
which lasted longer.Learned very quickly the difference between Carbon steel dies and HSS. Now where possible I use HSS but for limited work CST sometimes suffices


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## joco-nz (Jun 10, 2017)

A short update of some of the fiddly bits.

Pic #1:
Shows the threaded rods with their retention sleeves in place.  These now need to secured properly in place.  A mix of loctite and a pin should see these being pretty solid.  Although I do have a half formed idea that a little TIG Brazing on the threaded side will hold stuff in place forever.  But we shall see I'm probably at risk of over engineering things again.  oh:
You can also see the locking rod with its little brass cap.  That was a pain to make.  Its 4mm wide with a 2.4mm shaft that inserts into the rod.  The other rounds are the beginnings of the knobs that will go on the ends of these shafts.



pic #2:
This is a close up of the locking shaft with the brass insert installed.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (Jun 10, 2017)

Okay I just couldn't stop. The knob blanks were sitting there in a very accusatory way.  "Machine me ... machine ME ... MACHINE ME DAMMIT!!!"

Pic #1:
This is the setup used to machine the knobs.  The toolmaker clamp provides a stop so I can turn the ER32 Hex block and reposition in exactly the same spot. The mill tool is an 8mm bull nose HSS bit. The knob blanks are 1215 engineering steel, 19.90mm round.



Pic #2:
The knobs all done other than the set screw holes.  Things were getting a bit dang cold in the garage so that can be a tomorrow job. You might notice that the indents don't go all the way down the sides. There is a 3mm band still left intact, The idea is that at some point I will have the setup to put marks on the knobs.  Given the threads is M5 x 0.8mm which means if I put 40 divisions on this I get 0.02mm travel per division.



Pic #3:
"Dry" fit up of the knobs with the various shafts. Starting to look more and more real. :thumbup:


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## joco-nz (Jun 12, 2017)

Okay an update with the latest parts made.

This pic shows:
[1] The equal angle which will be the base. 32x32mm angle with a 110mm slot cut in it using standard chain drilling approach to remove the bulk of the material.

[2] three washes that are 3mm thick

[3] The M3 set screw visible on the knob

[4] The spacer between the black plastic ball and the central dovetail.

Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz (Jun 17, 2017)

A little bit done over the course of the week and today (Saturday).  Progress while a bit slower than I would like, blasted work has a lot to answer for, but my learning curve hasn't helped either.  Anyway on to the pics.

Pic #1 Setting up for drilling the cross pins to hold the 7mm retaining ring in place on the threaded shafts. The rings have been secured with loctite as will the pins be.



Pic #2: WIN - 1/16" holes drilled ready for the 1/16 Piano Wire I'm using to make the pins.  



Pic #3: The raw pins in place



Pic #4: Pins ground back ready for a proper sanding



Pic #5: The bearing blocks that will hold the long fence feed screw in place.



Pic #6: The bearing block that will secure the dovetail feed screw positioned and ready to locate the drilling position of its securing screws.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (Jul 2, 2017)

Managed to get some nice progress on the transport block that the fence will be mounted on and which will allow small adjustments of the fence position. Todays achievement was to get the blocked drilled and tapped to run on the M5 lead screw.
General process was:
[1] to get the block mounted in the mill vice vertically then aligned for drilling
[2] drill with 11/64 all the way through (total hole depth is 45mm)
[3] drill 25mm at 4.5mm to a depth of 25mm
[4] ream to 5mm to 25mm depth
[5] tap M5 all the way through on the remaining 11/64 sized hole using a tap wrench

The setup was not changed through the entire operation to ensure no alignment issues.

Pic 1 & 2:
Dry assembly showing the transport block on the lead screw with the knob and mounting blocks.





Pic 3:
Dry assembly on the underside of the grinding rest.



Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz (Jul 4, 2017)

A nice evening distressing in the garage.  Decided to stop once it got to the point each breath was a puff of steam.   

Pic #1:
The holes drilled, tapped M3 and the everything mounted up properly.



Pic #2:
The top of the table.  You can see the transport block pocking through the slot.  It now needs to have the fence mounting holes drilled and tapped.



Pic #3:
This shows how much the transport block is sticking through. This is intentional.  I need to blue the sides and run a scrip along the sides flush with the top of the table.  I can then mill down to that line and have the block nicely flush and ready for the fence to be mounted.



Cheers,
J.


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## joco-nz (Jul 8, 2017)

Bit of an update from the last few days of making chips.

Basically we have the fence transport completed having the mounting holes for the fence drilled and tapped.
The full assembly of the grinding rest.
The completion of the fence other than the needed M5 screw to mount it to fence transport that I had forgotten to order but are now on their way.
The locking thumb screw on the fence that I made today.  Just turned down from 10mm round then grips made with a 4mm end mill.

Pics 1 to 4: The grinding rest assembled. Still in need of a cleaning bath to get all the blue off.  But that will happen soon enough.









Pic 5: The basic blank for the fence.  You can see the M3 screw on the side at the front which acts as a stop.



Pic 6: The fence cleaned up and the locking thumb screw in place.



Pc 7: Close up of the thumb screw to try and show off the milled grips.  Could probably do with a final cleaning facing pass to really clean up the top.  But its perfectly functional and smooth as is.



Cheers,
James.


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## joco-nz (Jul 8, 2017)

Oh and the ball clamping stand-off is currently getting "right sized" as at the moment it is clearly to big.


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## joco-nz (Jul 10, 2017)

And here is the completed fence mounted on the grinding rest.   Next will be nice mounting of the bench grinder along with the mounting positions for the grinding rest.


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## joco-nz (Jul 17, 2017)

These are mockup pics of the grinding station.  The base is 16mm thick melamine board cut to 600x600mm and a sandwich of two sheets glued together.  The grinder is raised up by 18mm to get a better position for the rest and to allow more options on the vertical adjustment.  Next will be to finalise the position, market for holes  and the threaded inserts.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 17, 2017)

Hi James 

Not seeing anything in your last posting either in Windows7 or my Mac.

My thoughts are about what can be deduced suggest that you will be frustrated with the nuts and bolts clamping which could be improved.

Meantime

Regards

Norman


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## bruedney (Jul 17, 2017)

Yes I can see them


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## joco-nz (Jul 17, 2017)

goldstar31 said:


> Hi James
> 
> Not seeing anything in your last posting either in Windows7 or my Mac.
> 
> ...



One of the recommendations has been to source two of those switched magnetic bases and use them to clan things down.   That's still an option.  Just rather expensive.  It will cost me close to $80NZD to source the two holders I will need.  Where as a selection of holes with threaded inserts can be done for about $5.  Guess I will try the hole model and see how things go from there.  I had been thinking of a pattern of holes and making milling table style clamps as a way of getting more flexibility.  Use wing nuts for easier lock/unlocking.

Cheers,
J.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 17, 2017)

I once lived in the dread of having to make a million - or so it seemed, ball handles for a Quorn. Today, there are the two types of Adjustable Handles which I got with the Acute  Tool grinder kit of parts. What a nice and simple alternative to bloody nuts and bolts and  making ball handles.

Again, I live in that dreadful Never Never Land  swapping between Metric and Imperial tooling. Penance for my many sins!



Cheers

Norman


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## joco-nz (Jul 18, 2017)

Tried a different way to get the links to the google photos. Hopefully that improves things.


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## joco-nz (Jul 23, 2017)

Well its all drilled and bolted to the top now.   It basically looks the same as the dry fitting pics I have already posted so I won't do another pic as the delta is just some bolts into wood.

So this is it.  Done.  I hope its been of a little interest for a few people.

I have some of the accessories to do next. various holders for square and round stock, the end mill sharpener and anything else that I end up determining is needed.   As I complete those holders over the coming months I'll post a pic of them.

Cheers,
James.


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