# Newbie To Steam Engines



## craig00747 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hello Gents. I just joined this site and am very interessted in building a steam engine,to power a RC boat. The boat which I am interessted in,is the African Queen and the model will be sratch-built. I assume that the length of the model,would be approximately 1,2 m (4ft.)

I`ve been building model gas turbine engines for RC jets and have a Myford ML7 lathe,which has a milling attatchment on it. So it is possible for me to do milling work. I`ve looked at various drawings of engines and noticed that there is a lot of milling work,which has to be done. I have got brass,aluminium and stainless steel material on hand and just need some "coaching" to put me in the right direction. Have also mastered TIG welding for stainless steel and silver soldering.

Now for the questions:

Can anyone recommend a steam engine plan/drawing which can be built without requiring any castings?

Should I go for a SINGLE or DOUBLE cylinder to power the African Queen? I assume that the DOUBLE cylinder would look more "scale-like".

The Boiler - This is the most important stage of the whole build and where can I get a drawing of a very reliable unit? I`m aware that the boiler is a dangerous thing and can cause serious damage if things go wrong.

Any advice from you guys will be much appreciated and I`m asking this,because I`ve got no experience with steam engines.

Regards

Craig


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## mklotz (Feb 7, 2010)

> Should I go for a SINGLE or DOUBLE cylinder to power the African Queen? I assume that the DOUBLE cylinder would look more "scale-like".



I'm almost certain that the engine pictured on the boat in the movie was a one lunger.

IIRC, the boat is in some hotel in Key Largo, Florida. A web search may turn up some useful photos of the boat and/or its engine.


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## Tin Falcon (Feb 7, 2010)

Something like the Rudy Kouhoupt marine engine. The beauty here is that it self starts . it is twin cylinder double acting so a fair amount of power you may need to scale it up for a 4 foot boat not sure on that one. Check the download area here IIRC there are plans for a couple of nice boilers. 
http://www.livesteamsupplies.com/livesteamsupplies_062.htm
Welcome to the board.
Do the plans have any recommendation for an engine ? that could be a starting point. 
Tin


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## craig00747 (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks Guys. I see that I have got a lot of research to do as this is a totally new project for me. 

Regards

Craig


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## b.lindsey (Feb 7, 2010)

Hi Craig and welcome. You may want to check out www.pmresearchinc.com as they offer a vertical boiler kit which may be about the right size for the scale of boat you mention. If you already have good silver soldering skills it shouldn't be a problem to construct and they have done the engineering and parts sourcing for you.

Bill


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## Richard1 (Feb 7, 2010)

The African Queen also know as the S/L Livingstone is located at 99701 Overseas Highway in Key Largo, Florida. It is recorded on the National Register of Historic Places NRHP reference no 91001771. The boiler is vertical I don't know about the engine and it must be 30 years since I saw the movie but I think it has a single cylinder slide valve don't recall seeing a reversing gear on it so maybe loose eccentric maybe I just don't remember. This boat looks similar http://www.steamboat.org.uk/register/html/afri0014.htm

Regards
Richard.


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 7, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Craig.
I sure hope you post a thread of your build. I have a high interest in building a boat someday with a steam engine.


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## ironman (Feb 7, 2010)

African Queen had a single cylinder vertical engine. http://ibistro.dos.state.fl.us/uhtb...em_type=PHOTOGRAPH&searchdata1=Marine engines are pictures of it.


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## Maryak (Feb 7, 2010)

Craig,

Welcome to our forum. wEc1

Ironman's photos show it to be Stevenson's Link reversing with 2 eccentrics and the steam chest shape suggests a D valve, the column configuration suggests a double guided crosshead. The spoked wheel on the crankshaft is, (I think), to give it a flick should it stop on top or bottom DC. There is a mechanical cylinder lubricator driven from the link arm. Also, looks like a Worthington Duplex feed pump between the engine and the boiler. Anybody know whats under the cover for the drive, gears or belts ??? I suspect belts as there does not appear to be any lubricator.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


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## GailInNM (Feb 7, 2010)

The single cylinder would be best for scale appearance but since you are planning to radio control it you need to be aware that no single cylinder steam engine will be self starting reliably. If the engine stops on or near top dead center or bottom dead center it will not start with the application of steam. 

A twin cylinder with double acting cylinders and the cranks set at 90 degrees will self start and is much more suitable for radio control. Not scale of course so you have to pick what you want.

On the African Queen there was a human operator. If the engine stopped on one of the centers the operator could rotate the engine by hand to get it off center so it would start when the steam was applied. You can see the flywheel/handwheel in the the photo just posted.

Gail in NM


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## SAM in LA (Feb 7, 2010)

Our large recip. compressors have a hydraulic jacking device that rotates the flywheel, perhaps an electric one could be used on your boat.

SAM


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## ironman (Feb 7, 2010)

Wanting to go with a 2 cylinder with reverse, a good one is Ray Hasbrouck Number 7. I have almost completed one. Link is here. ironman  http://hasbrouck.8m.com/eng7.htm


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## steamer (Feb 7, 2010)

As of 10 years ago, the African Queen had a compound in her.....I helped remove it and diagnose it's problems....mostly operator induced. The owner seemed to have a penchant for a ball peen hammer... 

She's sitting in a parking lot in Florida now.....last I heard anyway.

Ironman...looks like she might have a "Shipman" single in her now....

Dave

....and PS...in the movie the steam engine and boiler were fake...there was a little diesel in the boiler case....

I think "San Pebbles" was a much better movie.....but that's just me...


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## steamer (Feb 7, 2010)

How big a model are you building?  That will drive the advice given.

I would keep it simple for the first steam model.....they are a lot of work.

A 2-3 foot model of the "Queen" could be driven by a 5/8 x 5/8 single or a 3/8 x 3/8 double simple with plenty of power to spare on as little as 40-60 psi.  

Let us know.

Dave


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## Maryak (Feb 7, 2010)

Dave,

Yep, "Sand Pebbles" was better, except for the poor Chinaman who ended up getting biffo in the crankpit.

PS Whereyabean ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## Tin Falcon (Feb 8, 2010)

FYI there was a post that Ron Ginger a member here will be handling Ray Hasbrocks plan sets. There was a post on this. 
Ray has passed to the big workshop in the sky . 
Tin


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## craig00747 (Feb 8, 2010)

GailInNM  said:
			
		

> The single cylinder would be best for scale appearance but since you are planning to radio control it you need to be aware that no single cylinder steam engine will be self starting reliably. If the engine stops on or near top dead center or bottom dead center it will not start with the application of steam.
> 
> A twin cylinder with double acting cylinders and the cranks set at 90 degrees will self start and is much more suitable for radio control. Not scale of course so you have to pick what you want.
> 
> ...


 Hello Gail. I`m aware that the single cylinder engine,will give a "scale" like appearance and I definately want to use it for radio control.This makes me want to build the 2 cyl. version as the starting process is much easier. I also want to Scratch-Build the boiler,if this is possible?

Regards

Craig


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## craig00747 (Feb 8, 2010)

steamer  said:
			
		

> How big a model are you building? That will drive the advice given.
> 
> I would keep it simple for the first steam model.....they are a lot of work.
> 
> ...


 Hi steamer. The model which I want to build,is going to have a length of 3 - 4 ft. I actually would prefer to make it 4 ft. due to the dams which we have available,here in South Africa. When the wind is blowing,it does cause quite a few "ripples" on the water and I feel that a bigger boat would handle it better,than a smaller one would. There again,the wind does not always blow,BUT when I want to fly my models or sail my yacht,the wind shows up.


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## craig00747 (Feb 8, 2010)

Hi Guys. I just want to thank all of you,who have replied to this thread. The information has helped me tremendously and I will post pictures,as I go along.There is a few things,which I have to decide on,before I venture into this project and once I`ve got a "go ahead",I`ll get going on it. Any further support,would be much appreciated.

Regards
Craig


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## joe d (Feb 8, 2010)

craig00747  said:
			
		

> Any further support,would be much appreciated.
> 
> Regards
> Craig



Craig; First of all, a belated "Welcome"! As you will see as you go along, further support is just a question of asking a question... there's pretty much always somebody who can answer pretty much anything around here :big:

There are a number of us with an interest in boats as well, so maritime type questions should not be a big problem either.

Looking forward to following along once you get going.

Cheers, Joe


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## steamer (Feb 8, 2010)

Hi Craig,

4 feet is fine.  A double simple would be my choice, say 3/8 x 3/8 x 3/8 or bigger. Easy and positive starting and reversing.  A vertical firetube boiler would be best in keeping with the "real thing" and it would be easiest to build. I believe there is a plan set in the download section for a vertical firetube boiler that just might fit the bill....It would lend itself to gas firing also.....check it out!

And engine driven feed pump and a manual hand feed pump would also be on my list of musts...to say nothing of the mandatory gauge glass and safety valves mind you.

You might also consider a pressure controlled gas valve to control the fire.

All of these items exist on the open market and there are enough plans floating around that you could make all of them if you so desired....the world is your oyster.

Hey Bob, good to hear from another San Pebbles fan....shame the chief cooly didn't put the jacking gear key back when he overhauled her huh : ;D

Been busy with a new job......58 hours last week...with two hours of driving every day........cutting into my steamboat time.

Dave


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## steamer (Feb 8, 2010)

Oh and I have run my sons 14" harbor tug in "REAL" 20 knot winds...not without difficulty, but it wasn't impossible!..if you take off the awning , you will have a great deal less windage


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## ChooChooMike (Feb 9, 2010)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Yep, "Sand Pebbles" was better, except for the poor Chinaman who ended up getting biffo in the crankpit.



The engine used in the Sand Pebbles movie is now sitting in one of the museum holds of the S.S. Lane Victory cargo ship in San Pedro, CA (Los Angeles harbor). 






Vid of it turning (electric motor geared to crankshaft) :

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kz3HVS7ips[/youtube]

Since I volunteer on the ship, I've seen the engine many many times. Gene Allen (the one who makes/sells the locomotive kits/castings) built a small sale model of this engine - WOW !! and brings it on our cruises for the public to see. He also volunteers as a docent for the engine during our day cruises.

http://www.lanevictory.org/laneVtour_museum2.php

Mike


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## Blogwitch (Feb 9, 2010)

If you download this

http://jpduval.free.fr/Moteurs_vapeur_simples/MV deo 10x20.pdf

With a little work, it can be made into this (not the v twin)






It will run on 30 psi and easily power a boat up to 5ft long like this











Same type of engine, different installation.






Blogs


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## GailInNM (Feb 10, 2010)

The movie, "The African Queen ", will be shown in the US on Turner Classic Movies (TCM) at 10 PM Eastern on Feb 14.
It's enough of a love story that you might get away with watching it with SWMBO on Valentine's Day and convincing her that you are giving up your precious shop time just to spend it with her. ;D

Gail in NM


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## steamboatmodel (Feb 10, 2010)

steamer  said:
			
		

> As of 10 years ago, the African Queen had a compound in her.....I helped remove it and diagnose it's problems....mostly operator induced. The owner seemed to have a penchant for a ball peen hammer...
> She's sitting in a parking lot in Florida now.....last I heard anyway.
> Ironman...looks like she might have a "Shipman" single in her now....
> Dave
> ...


Hi Dave, 
Not only did he like to use a ball peen hammer, he didn't like steam oil and when it was up here he was running it dry. I think the diesel was under the green wood box. The Steam Engine was defiantly not connected in the movie.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## craig00747 (Feb 10, 2010)

Hello Blogwitch

Thankyou for the info and the photos. I had already downloaded that drawing of the engine,while surfing the Net and havn`t decided if I`ll build it or not.

I`m going to attatch a drawing of a 2 cylinder engine,which I found very interesting and I would like you to give your opinion on it. Actually,anybody can decide whether it would be a good one to try out or not? It also does not require any castings,which makes it easier.

After you guys have viewed the drawing,could you tell me what else needs to be built,EXCLUDING the BOILER? A CONDENSOR or what?

Regards

Craig 

View attachment MarineEngine.pdf


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## charlesfitton (Feb 10, 2010)

I think "San Pebbles" was a much better movie.....but that's just me...
[/quote]

Live steam.... dead steam... main steam stop valve...

All that and using a big bejesus hammer to straighten out the engine alignment....

Fantastic movie.

Better book...


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## Blogwitch (Feb 10, 2010)

Craig,

That sure is a large engine. If you were contemplating putting that in a fair hull like the African Queen, the hull would need to be around 6ft long., not only to stay to almost scale proportions to the engine, but to be able to support the weight of the engine and boiler. In say a cargo ship, with a bluff bow and large displacement hull, you might get away with 4ft length.

The engine has the advantage that it is a piston valve, so could be controlled with just a two channel radio. One channel for rudder on the boat and the second for fwd/rev/speed control on the engine.

The only extras you would need to make are a good fwd/rev/speed control and a simple displacement lubricator. 

This should explain the hull differences and carrying capacity. Both of these hulls are the same length, just under 4ft.


A fair hull, designed for steam, similar to the AQ. It was perfectly trimmed by carrying just a small engine like the plans I sent you to, and a 3" diameter vertical boiler (1pt capacity). Total weight of steam plant, as a guesstimate, 5lbs max, including water.







This is a bluff bow displacement hull, that not only took a 24AH lead acid battery (like in an invalid buggy or golf cart), but also 3 gallons of water into ballast tanks, just to get it down to a stable sailing level. I should think a total weight of ballast around 50lbs.






Hull choice is fairly critical, otherwise you can easily either overload, or at the other end of the scale, be carrying around excess ballast.


John


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## Richard1 (Feb 10, 2010)

Nice looking engine I think i will have to build one of those one day.
Things you will need lubricator either a simple displacement type or a mechanical one. You don't need to run condensing just exhaust up the stack but IF you do want to run condensing then you will have to make a condenser, circulating pumps (maybe not with a keel condenser I don't know enough) wet air pump to keep up the condenser vacuum, if you are going to use this water for boiler feed you will need an oil separator and of course a feed pump to shove it back in the boiler. I'm sure there is other stuff I have forgotten.

Richard


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## craig00747 (Feb 10, 2010)

John,thanks once again for your help.I thought that the engine was a small model,but now realize that its actually too big for the AQ.Proves to me that I have got a lot to learn.

If I build the engine,which you sent a photo of,would the 3" boiler in the downloads section work for it? I`ve got a 9 channel transmitter,so have the extra channels.What extra items needed to accompany the engine?

Richard,thanks for your reply.Yes,I would also like to build that engine,because it looks fairly easy to build.Its just the other items,which is required,that makes me wonder what I need?

Regards
Craig


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## craig00747 (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi John

I`m attatching a drawing of the Pinasse steam boat and this would be my second choice.My Boss at work can enlarge this to whatever size I require and the drawing gives quite a lot of info.I believe that the little 2 cyl. engine will be sufficient for it?

Regards
Craig 

View attachment SteamBoatPinasse.pdf


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## Blogwitch (Feb 10, 2010)

Craig,

I have just been looking for Sandy's 3.5" horizontal boiler in the plans section but I don't seem to be able to find them, just the burner for it.

If that hull could be built to something like 40" to 42" long, a 3.5" diameter by 6.5" to 7" long horizontal boiler would be perfect, and even though it is a 'beamy' type of hull, with it having a round bilge, the displacement wouldn't be too much, and so should require very little lead ballast, if any, to get it to waterline. 

Those French engine plans do have a major flaw in them. The steam fwd/rev/speed control valve at the top of the engine requires the operating arm slot to be machined 90 degrees around the disc from where it states it should be. I would recommend, if you do make it, to put the cylinder to face holding springs how I mounted them on mine, it simplifies the whole cylinder build. All you would need extra is a simple displacement lubricator.

That engine is a 10mm (3/8" approx) bore by 20mm (3/4" approx) stroke, and as such, is a long stroke, slow runner, but very powerful for it's size, and could easily cope with a hull that size. I know for a fact that it can turn a 4" 45 degree pitch prop by direct drive at a fair rate of knots.

It is very difficult to guarantee that everything will match perfectly, but looking at what you require, the combination of what I have said does look to be a well balanced set up. A lot will depend on how well you can make the engine, boiler and hull.

My other passion throughout my whole working life, other than engineering, was making and sailing radio controlled model boats. I had to give up the boating bit as I couldn't carry them down to the waters edge and safely launch them after I had an accident, but I still take an avid interest in all things model boating. 

I hope this has helped, but please take notice of what everyone else is saying, they could easily come up with an easier and better solution than what I have offered.


John


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## steamer (Feb 10, 2010)

steamboatmodel  said:
			
		

> Hi Dave,
> Not only did he like to use a ball peen hammer, he didn't like steam oil and when it was up here he was running it dry. I think the diesel was under the green wood box. The Steam Engine was defiantly not connected in the movie.
> Regards,
> Gerald.



As told to me on the "shake down" cruise with the now rebuilt engine, he was asked why he hadn't lubricated the engine....I was told he took a plastic bottle of automotive engine oil out...opened it and proceeded to dump the contents over the engine somewhat like basting a chicken.  When empty, he tossed the bottle overboard. When told that that was a $5000 fine if caught, he just shrugged his shoulders........Sounded like more money than brains..

I saw what he did with the ball peen hammer first hand.....mind boggling....

Dave


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## craig00747 (Feb 11, 2010)

Hello John.Sorry for the delay in my response.I had to work late,to get the fishing vessel ready to sail.The 1500 Hp Caterpillar engine had a headache and needed some attention.

I took the drawing to work and it was enlarged to obtain a 42 inch length.The ink in the machine was low and it didn`t print clearly.As soon as it has been replaced,I`ll know if the enlargement process was successful or not?

Thankyou for the advice about the Forward/Reverse system on the drawing. I`ll have a go at building this engine as it seems to have sufficient power.

I managed to download the drawings for the 3" boiler.This should work for this engine - shouldn`t it?

Regards
Craig


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## Blogwitch (Feb 11, 2010)

That should be fine Craig, it will be more than enough to continuously supply that engine with 30 PSI (2 BAR). In fact, most of the people running my engines run at around 25 PSI, and the engines give out more than enough power.

I can't remember if I actually showed a few shots of that engine build on here, or it might have been on another site, I will have a root around the old posts.

John


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