# Should we preserve our heritage.



## Bogstandard (Apr 10, 2008)

I am not going to tell you about the battle that is happening on another website, of which a couple of members on here are involved. Not nastily, but in trying to persuade someone to do something. After I have a few comments I will tell you exactly what is happening.

How would you feel about this scenario.

An important part of a country's heritage is being cut up and sold to whoever wants it. Just to make a few bucks.

These parts allow historic machinery to be restored or repaired.

It doesn't matter where you come from, how would you feel about it, if it was happening in your part of the world.

John


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## Bernd (Apr 10, 2008)

John,

Don't what to say. I have mixed feelings about something like that. 

The first sentence seems to say they are doing it for a buck. The second sentence seems to state the parts are going for a repair or restore of historic machinery. A bit confusing to say the least.

If the original machine could not be brought to working order then why not us it's usable parts to restore or repair another historic machine. This would be OK with me if the scenario played out like that. But just to cut up a piece of heritage to get a few bucks, NAW.

Bernd


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## Bogstandard (Apr 10, 2008)

I should have made it a bit clearer, say they were almost irreplaceable casting patterns.

Now how would you feel.

John


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## Cedge (Apr 10, 2008)

John
I'm quite aware of the story. The young man who has these patterns is well know to me and many others in the live steam community. I was offended by the fact that someone of your stature would dare accuse him of a lack of morals after I've watched this kid agonize over the loss of the Marshall plant, for more than a year now. I've long watched him document the destruction of living history and his efforts to salvage whatever he could. I saw no one in any of those photos but a sad eyed kid with mud covered clothes and very dirty hands. Where were all of these heritage minded folks back then?

The casting moulds he is in possession of were scheduled to be burned due to a lack of interest by anyone but one kid who took the initiative to save any and everything he could manage to get permission to remove from the demolition site. Now that the hard work is done, it's hypocritical for those shouting "heritage" to try to decide how he disposes of his good fortune. If you're going to tell the story... tell it in context. No one cared much until the kid did all the hard work. Now everyone wants him to give them up for free or at best for a small pittance.

The board over there isn't very likely to ask you back after playing the "I quit" card. Especially after the scurrilous guilt trip laid on a history loving 15 year old boy. He is twice the preservationist when compared those who now want to dictate how he disposes of these artifacts. I'd be pleased if he made up the whole of his college funds from them. 

Steve 

Steve


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## rickharris (Apr 10, 2008)

Anything suitably documents can be recreated. It all depends on your view of restoration/preservation. In the main any old patterns/plans/machinery is very fortunate to have survived but that doesn't make them valuable/important or critical.

I guess the answer is market forces, If the objects are valued enough, someone will give them a home, at a price. Museums are full of unloved and none working historical machinery, is it more or less valuable than something that works?

I guess the bottom line is document as much as we can so if needs be it can be replicated. Save as many books/drawings as possible - ideally in digital form, as paper is so vulnerable, and make it available to a wide audience.


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 10, 2008)

John: 
 It is hard and sometime wrong to judge another mans motivation. As for preservation I am all for it but It in many cases takes large sums of money. Money that is often not available. 
only a few miles from me is an endangered industrial historic site. 
Ferracute site
There was an excellent book written about the site 20 years ago
Ferracute: The History of an American Enterprise. By Arthur J. Cox and Thomas Malim. Bridgeton, N.J.: Arthur J. Cox (P.O. Box 411 08302), 1985. .

I have a couple copies of the book have read it and present parts in lectures. The place build industrial metal working presses. Presses that helped Henry Ford set up mass production of automobiles and presses that helped the US win WW 2. the place is all but forgotten and I would venture that at east 9 out of 10 of local residents if asked would have no idea of what the factory was what it made or its historical significance. with the exception of the book, photos of old machines that are still in existence and patterns scattered about the country and a couple of sets of microfilm the place is barely known.
Tin


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## compound driver 2 (Apr 10, 2008)

HI
Im fully on johns side on this one. Old patterns may not be the most difficult things to replicate given lets say a chimney saddle thats rotted out. Any decent pattern maker can re make the pattern from the remains.

The big issue here is the scarce nature of the engines envolved. In many cases there are no drawings and there are no examples of parts, in these cases having a genuine pattern can make the difference between a restoration taking place and not.

I have read and followed this one on a few sites and to be honest I am disgusted with the way its gone on. I agree let the kid make a littel money but not at the ex[ense of spreading this lot of historical patterns across the globe. 

If there was any real interest in the history of the Marshal company I would think a donation to the Museum of rural history would be in order. John had the idea of the kid being paid a royalty each time one of the patterns is used. I for one think this is a superb idea.

Cheers kevin


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## ChooChooMike (Apr 10, 2008)

A good book on the rise & fall of Burgmaster - another American machine tool manufacturer. Good read and lots of historical information on the history/development of automated/CNC machines from one of the originators of such.

Amazon link :
When the Machine Stopped: A Cautionary Tale from Industrial America



> *From Library Journal*
> Journalist Holland, whose father has worked 29 years for Burgmaster, has produced a history of that machine tool manufacturer by blending accounts of major events with descriptions of key individuals and machines. Holland covers the 1944 founding of Burg Tool, its transformation into Burgmaster Corporation, the Houdaille takeover, the 1979 leveraged buyout, the campaign for protection against Japanese competition, and, finally, the auction of Burgmaster property in 1986. This book is more than an excellent company history; it also tells why the industry and American manufacturing in general has declined. Highly recommended.
> - Leonard Grundt, Nassau Community Coll. Lib., Garden City, N.Y.
> Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc.
> ...


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## Powder keg (Apr 10, 2008)

Does anyone have a link to what John is referring to? I'd like to read it. 

Thanks for your time, Wes


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## Bogstandard (Apr 10, 2008)

I would prefer it not to be given at this time.

I stirred up a bit of a hornets nest, and there might be delicate negotiations going on.

John


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## zeusrekning (Apr 10, 2008)

If this kid had not acquired these patterns whose property would they be in? This is another one of those delicate issues. I have a C3 corvette and corvette guys hate it. It is not original. I lik ecustomizing and prefer resto mods. (Mine is parked waiting resto). But I shed a tear everytime I go to a junk yard and see a car being scrapped. I am a collector of Junk (my treasure). I would have more if I could afford it. But if it were me I'll tell you what I would do. Again, I know nothing really of what is going on, and know nothing of patterns. If there is this much interest then someone must be willing to buy them. I would sell them to someone who shows interest and money. There is no reason this kid can't make an honest buck if something he has is of this much value. 
Tim


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## rake60 (Apr 10, 2008)

This kid put forth an effort to preserver something that no one else had an
interest in until they found out a _KID had put forth an effort to...._

There are people who are accusing him of being an opportunist.
Where were these people when this young man was busting his balls to 
to keep these patterns from being burnt.

I have NO PACIENCE for the kind of condemnation that has gone on over this 
topic on the unmentioned forum. It was just junk until it belonged to
a kid. 

In my mind it was NEVER junk. The young man knew that as well.
He was the only one with the insight to see that.
His efforts made him the owner of those patterns...

Since there was no effort made before that time the patterns are HIS!
Where it goes from there is *HIS * choice!

The people who sat back to see what would happen next have should
have no right or reason to even express an opinion.
If they had lost a battle to conserve the patterns and some young kid
came and stole them away, there might be a reason for all of this.

If they had made no effort on their own to preserve the patterns for their
historic value they should just.......
(Well I had better not finish that statement.) 

Rick


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## Bernd (Apr 10, 2008)

I see there is more to the story than I will probably know. So at this point I will keep quiet since I can't read the whole of the issue myself. Can't make a decent decision if I don't have all of the story.

Bernd


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## Lew Hartswick (Apr 11, 2008)

I seem to have missed this thread or it's not on one of the 4 others I read. But from what has been 
written here I have a question. Just WHOSE heritage are we talking about? Some of the posters here
are in USA, some in Canada, some in England, and I'm sure there are some in other parts of the world.
So heritage is a somewhat ambigous term.
  ...lew...


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## rake60 (Apr 11, 2008)

The original discussion was on a UK based site that it owned and administered
by the young man who is in possession of the patterns that are for sale.
He came by them honestly and should be allowed to do with them as he
sees fit. If they were not in his possession they would have been burned as trash.

As I said before it's a tough call on the heritage issue, but I don't see any
major historical preservation groups making any offers to acquire them.

Rick


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## 1Kenny (Apr 11, 2008)

The young man has preserved the heritage. Now, if some people don't like the way he is doing it, then it is up to them to quickly pull the money out of their pockets and do it their way. If the _some people_ don't have the money then they need to stay out of his business. Money talks, BS walks.

Kenny


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## tmuir (Apr 12, 2008)

I'll also add this has been an ongoing story for nearly a year now and during all that time when he posted photos of the demolition and saved items, every time saying there was still alot more to save I didn't see any of the people who are now condemning him offer to help him save the items by either assisting in removing them from the bonfire piles or offering him a few pounds to pay for the fuel used by the vehicles to remove the gear but now he has saved all he can and has offered the patterns for sale you all are getting high and mighty at him now.
Too little too late, if you had offered to help save the patterns then you would have right to complain but you didn't.

It's funny I buy Model Engineer and occasionally flip through Old Glory and I don't recall any letters in them asking them to help save the Marshal patterns from the fires and I wonder how many of the outraged people have found out who the developer of the site is and approached them about helping to save them as a PR exercise. Or maybe even just simply writing into the local paper about it because I'm sure if any of this was done the patterns would of been collected catalogued and saved by some organisation rather than just one boy. But as no-one did that I say the person who put the effort into saving them can do what he wants with them.


Enough said.
I apologise to everyone else on this forum as it was wrong for this issue to boil over to this forum.
I am still very much a novice model engineer and hope I can continue to learn from and partake in this forum.

Tony


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