# Wet Grinder for Sharpening Drills?



## Arnak (Dec 5, 2011)

Hi Folks,

After seeing this drill sharpener for the Tormek http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/dbs22/index.php

I wondered if it would be possible to make a similar device for my Jet wet stone grinder as they are off a similar design.

The device looks good but very expensive. :'(

Leaving out the need to make 4 facet drills I would hope that a simpler device could be constructed?

I do have a Picador type sharpener and have see how to use a belt sander for sharpening but I would prefer something that relies less on my hand sharpening skills. 

Any thoughts?

Arnak


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## Lew Hartswick (Dec 6, 2011)

That Tormec thing looks interesting. I'd like to "see" (play) with one a bit. May take on 
the "copy/improve" job if it looks feasible. Just for the kicks. That is the kind of thing
I enjoy most. I wonder if Woodworkers Supply has one in their show room. Hummm!
Have to check that out later this week. 
 Thanks for the idea.
  ...Lew...


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## Arnak (Dec 7, 2011)

Hi Lew,

Yes, that's what I thought too.

There are several videos on using it here http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...48l4162l0l5583l13l13l0l6l6l0l196l1002l0.7l7l0

I can't see it being that much of a problem to make and it has the potential for 4 facet once the basic idea is correct.

Arnak


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## Lew Hartswick (Dec 7, 2011)

I wonder what idiot came up with that description of a "split point" drill geometry ?
They have been called split point for as many years as I can remember. I wonder if 
it was someone who had never seen a drill bit? Or at least a tool catalog. I certainly 
won't be a party to adding to the language butchering that has been going on. 
  ...lew...


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## Blogwitch (Dec 7, 2011)

At 227 UK pounds (about 300 US bucks), that is a lot of cash to fork out just to sharpen drills, plus you would require a fairly stable offhand grinder costing ????.

Not far over doubling those figures and you are into the realms of the Chinese copies of the Alexander tool and cutter grinder, which can sharpen almost anything in the home shop.


John


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## Arnak (Dec 7, 2011)

Hi Guys,

Lew, in Germany they call them 2 phase drills. 

John, yes I agree the price is ridiculous, given the cost of the Tormek to start with you are looking at £500 + for the complete kit. :

I'm sure that we could come up with a cheaper alternative.

Arnak


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## Lew Hartswick (Dec 7, 2011)

Arnak  said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> 
> Lew, in Germany they call them 2 phase drills.
> Arnak



Is that the liquid - solid phase or the gas - liquid phase pair ?? 
  ...lew...


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## Arnak (Dec 8, 2011)

Hi Lew,

It's pretty obvious, they start in the solid state then when you overheat them when sharpening they turn liquid and melt! :big:

Arnak


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## Lew Hartswick (Dec 8, 2011)

Arnak, Sorry that's my physics background leaking out. 
  ...lew...


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 15, 2013)

Greetings to all . First of all I know this is an OLD thread. the original poster has not been here for a couple of months and the the two responders have chosen to move on to other forums.I am choosing to continue this thread rather than start a new one.

You may also want to read here 

10" wet grinder

Grinding HSS  tools

I have pondered one of these jigs. I have watched the videos  and read the reviews.  The reviews are excellent.Four facet  drill bits stay cooler last longer and cut straighter. 

The only down side is the price . $272.00 seems like there are no bargain price they are shipped directly from tormek in many cases. 

The reviews say this is superior to the drill doctor . The other tough part of this route is you need a $250.00 to $500. wet grinder to put the thing on. 

I have already invested in the 10" Sheppach grinder

I have thought about trying to make one but there are many pieces and this seems to be well thought out. So could spend many hours tying to figure it out and fabricate.  

Has anyone here gone this route? Do you own a DBS 22 orhave you make one or found a cheaper viable substitute.? 

I have an older generation drill doctor and it works OK . I have thought about upgrading to a newer one they have good reviews as well. But if the DBS 22 is in fact superior I may go that route instead. 

Are these worth the money? are they in fact Superior to the drill doctor?  is four facet indeed superior to a good factory or DD grind?

I have read things like the tormek DBS 22 makes the drill doctor look like a kids toy . And the four facet geometry  lasts four times as long as a factory grind. so I am hoping someone can confirm this.   

This is a rubber meets the road kind of tool. drilling is the most common matching task and a properly sharpened bit has no substitute. I have not problem investing in tools but do not want to waste money. 
Tin 


Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 15, 2013)

http://www.tormek.com/en/reviews/pdf/the_woodworker_november_2010.pdf

http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/dbs22/pdf/instruction_dbs22_en.pdf

some info on the product.

Tin


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## Wizard69 (Sep 16, 2013)

Here are a couple of links that might help:
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/choose-the-best-drill-point-geometry
http://www.newmantools.com/machines/drillpoint.html
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html. This guy has an extensive site.   
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0007850607609998    You need to be willing to pay for it. 
http://stusshed.com/2010/08/29/drill-bit-sharpening/.   This guy covers the fixture you are talking about but maybe doesn't answer a lot of questions.  
http://homews.co.uk/page360.html.   Harold Halls point of view.  

A lot of links, but the subject is interesting and well studied.    I'm sure you have seen some of them, there are probably more that can be added to the list.   



Tin Falcon said:


> Greetings to all . First of all I know this is an OLD thread. the original poster has not been here for a couple of months and the the two responders have chosen to move on to other forums.I am choosing to continue this thread rather than start a new one.
> 
> You may also want to read here
> 
> ...


The technology certainly has its advantages and frankly some disadvantages.   For most people, in this case home shop owners, you need to ask is the additional complexity worth it.   Frankly if you are doing a lot of stuff in brass or other alloys the grind may be more trouble than it is worth.  


> The only down side is the price . $272.00 seems like there are no bargain price they are shipped directly from tormek in many cases.


I've always have been of the opinion that the Tormek is over priced.     On the other hand all of the DIY four facet fixtures out there for more conventional grinders pretty complex.    For that price you could buy two of the cheap Drill Doctors or one of the better ones and have a dedicated machine.    So you have to ask what will you gain for that high price.   


> The reviews say this is superior to the drill doctor . The other tough part of this route is you need a $250.00 to $500. wet grinder to put the thing on.


Conical drill points have been around forever, they are a general purpose solution.    The Drill Doctor is actually a fairly innovative low cost solution to grinding conventional drill points.    The thing here is that you will find that depending upon the materials to be drilled, four facet drills can be the worst choice relative to conventional grinds.   If you are drilling materials where the bits tend to corkscrew or grab you really need a different approach yet again.  

A tool and die maker once showed me an entirely different twist drill grind he uses when drilling sheet metal.    This grind kinda looked like a brad point.    The point here (yes a pun) is that different uses benefit from different approaches.  

Beyond all of the above, I believe that a conventional grind with a split point gives you much of the benefits of a four facet grind for far less trouble.  I'd seriously consider a split point grind if you are having trouble with a drilling process right now.    I could be wrong but I believe most Drill Doctors support this.   If you look at the geometry split points seem to be a compromise that is almost a four facet grind.  


> I have already invested in the 10" Sheppach grinder
> 
> I have thought about trying to make one but there are many pieces and this seems to be well thought out. So could spend many hours tying to figure it out and fabricate.
> 
> Has anyone here gone this route? Do you own a DBS 22 orhave you make one or found a cheaper viable substitute.?


Not me!    As I've said above the buy in on a Tormek is too high for me right now.   Might I go that way in the future - hard to say, I'm just short too many other important tools in the shop right now.   Further it would seem to be more constructive to save up for a more conventional tool grinder.  


> I have an older generation drill doctor and it works OK . I have thought about upgrading to a newer one they have good reviews as well. But if the DBS 22 is in fact superior I may go that route instead.


Four facet grind does appear to be superior for demanding uses but you need to ask yourself is what you do that demanding to justify the added expense.  


> Are these worth the money? are they in fact Superior to the drill doctor?  is four facet indeed superior to a good factory or DD grind?


If it was absolutely superior I think you would see more factories shipping drills with the grind.  I have a hard time seeing it as a general purpose grind.  


> I have read things like the tormek DBS 22 makes the drill doctor look like a kids toy . And the four facet geometry  lasts four times as long as a factory grind. so I am hoping someone can confirm this.


I wouldn't call the Drill Doctor a toy.   It really is in a class of its own for what it can accomplish at the price charged.   As for how long things last, the first thing I'd ask is are you having huge problems right now.  


> This is a rubber meets the road kind of tool. drilling is the most common matching task and a properly sharpened bit has no substitute. I have not problem investing in tools but do not want to waste money.
> Tin
> 
> Tin


You are correct that a properly ground bit makes all the difference in the world.   The problem here is that different uses benefit from different sharpening techniques.   For example drilling Lexan and other plastics can benefit from a zero rake on the cutting edge.    In industry you might see guys with more than one set of drill bits if the mix of materials they work with justify different grinds.  

In the end there are no easy answers!


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## ShopShoe (Sep 16, 2013)

It's what works for you:

"You are correct that a properly ground bit makes all the difference in the world."

Since I moved from wood to metal I have been constantly working to improve my drill sharpening skills and improve the quality of the drills I buy. The one constant thing I have learned is to inspect even new drills from quality makers to make sure they are straight and that they are ground evenly. It's surprising what gets by quality control these days. I can touch up drills that are beginning to get dull, but those that are really trashed need to be in the trash.


"In industry you might see guys with more than one set of drill bits if the mix of materials they work with justify different grinds."

Following many posts on this forum and elsewhere I made a decision several years ago that is working for me:

I have a set of quality black-oxide-coated 135-degree pointed drills for steel and I have a set of bright HSS 118-degree drills for aluminum. If faced with critical work with brass I stone the cutting edge of a 118-degree drill as has been mentioned before so that it does not "dig-in" so bad.

I also have a set of drills that live by the drill press for rough drilling of wood and unknown metal. The "machine-shop" drills will not be broken and bent drilling out rivets, etc.

I have a drill doctor as a future purchase, but meanwhile I buy quality drills, small ones as disposable supplies, larger ones to be sharpened if I can do it with any success.

Works for Me.

--ShopShoe


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 17, 2013)

> Four facet grind does appear to be superior for demanding uses but you need to ask yourself is what you do that demanding to justify the added expense.



Well demanding probably not but There appears to be many advantages. Accurate holes so when you drill a hole to be reamed there will be a soother hole.

less force no need to push the drill in . longer lasting. once you have an accurate grind  less time to maintain.  the ability to grind for a specific material.  


> If it was absolutely superior I think you would see more factories shipping drills with the grind. I have a hard time seeing it as a general purpose grind.



maybe maybe not the gp factory grinds work and I expect they are faster and cheaper to grind. 

I like the idea of multifaceted bits . Now it is a matter of the most economical way of getting it reliably. 


Tin


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## Omnimill (Nov 22, 2013)

I read ages ago that the "standard" grind used on normal drill bits is simply "adequate" no more no less. As long as folks buy them, and we do by the million, why on earth would suppliers bother to produce anything else? I've also read that four or more facet drills do work better but sadly I've not seen any studies done on it. It would be very easy to prove the point (pun intended!)  if you have a decent tool and cutter grinder to make consistent grinds for testing.


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## Wizard69 (Nov 23, 2013)

Omnimill said:


> I read ages ago that the "standard" grind used on normal drill bits is simply "adequate" no more no less. As long as folks buy them, and we do by the million, why on earth would suppliers bother to produce anything else? I've also read that four or more facet drills do work better but sadly I've not seen any studies done on it. It would be very easy to prove the point (pun intended!)  if you have a decent tool and cutter grinder to make consistent grinds for testing.



Many drill bits now come with the so called split point grind that does some of the same things for us as the multi facet grinds.  In any event I think you are right it is what they can offer up cheap on drills.   I've seen some grinds so bad on American made drills that I'm almost certain they assume you will grind to fit the task.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 23, 2013)

I am still pondering a solution here. I think the biggest obstacle is holding the drill bits. 
there seems to be two ways to do this. one is the finger double v block clamp. Used on the tormek dbs22 and Other professional grade sharpeners. 
the other approach is purchase a er collet set and make a square holder. 

It comes down to Home much money spent vs how much time. 
And will the end results of the time spent be as good as the factory engineered and made tool. 
Im thinking....
Tin


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## Omnimill (Nov 23, 2013)

I started to make one Tin to work on my belt sander but didn't get round to finishing it.   I planned to use the square collet block I have with ER32 collets.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures

Not too expensive if you already have ER32 collets.

I should add the ER32 collet system is brilliant. I have a chuck for my lathe, another for the mill, a spin indexer and square and hex blocks. They have a better clamping range than 5c collets as well.


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