# A Question



## Flynt (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi

I currently have an old Emco Unimat SL, picked up second hand and still working nicely however the time has come to upgrade. I don't have a lot of room in my workhop, filled up as it is with bike parts, trike in parts and the assorted rubbish that collects in a garage come workshop over the years, so although i don't have the room for them i would like a separate lathe and mill but space being at a premium and my machining ambitions modest i thought one of these would do the job, now i know its a 3 in 1 but what do you think ,


http://www.warco.co.uk/WMT500-Combined-Metalworking-Lathe-and-Milling-Machine-B1B382B787.aspx

I know that they are not considered the best option but since i never intend to do any heavy engineering i thought it would suffice as all i ever wish to make are small engines and some of the smaller bike parts.


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## rake60 (Feb 9, 2010)

I do not own a three in one machine, but I have played with a few of them
that are owned by friends.

There is an age old quote that reads:
*If you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all*

That is just my personal opinion.

Rick


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## stevehuckss396 (Feb 9, 2010)

One of the problems with a machine like that is every time you want to switch from the lathe to the mill you have to break it down and change tooling. You have to setup the vise and indicate it in every time you switch. On a seperate mill you just walk up to the mill and start cutting. Then to switch back you have to break down the latch and reinstall the tool post.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 9, 2010)

Flynt  said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> i know its a 3 in 1 but what do you think ,



I faced the same questions before making a final decision. Quite a few machinists (not on this forum) told me that a 3 in 1 machine would fall short of doing either very well and said better to buy a lathe first and add a mill and tooling as time and funds become available. I've heard that switching the machine back and forth gets old very fast, such as pulling the vise on and off. There are also limitations due to table size. After hearing all that and a lot-lot more I dropped the idea of the 3-1 as being a cheaper and better way to get started. 

I looked at the link and the 3 in 1 is about 1500. Not bad.

A) A big R-8 mill/drill is about 1000.

B) A -240 v-speed lathe is 780.

C) A -250 lathe is 980.

A+B= 1780., that's 280. more not bad for a better set up. 

A+C= 1980. I don't know how much larger this is, but its 480. more.

Sorry, but you may regret the combo in short order.

If you buy 2 machines and pay, say 280. or 480. more that only about 30% more money or so. After one year of use this choice may prove to be a wise one.

If you make a choice, make it for a life time. A big investment like this needs careful consideration. Buying with a thought of replacing with better before the purchase is even made is a clue.

Sorry if my honesty sounds brutal and my attitude is steering. I'm really just trying to help you make a decision that you can live with for a long time. As the old saying goes "Haste makes waste". Be careful not to waste your money, instead of "investing" your money.

But its only you that can make the decision, and it needs to be 'right' for you, and only you!

-MB


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## mklotz (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, what Steve and MB said (and Rick left unsaid).

Try an experiment. Pick a small size engine project and build it on your Unimat (fine machine - I have one). While you're doing this, keep track of how often you're annoyed by having to break down the lathe/mill configuration to set up the mill/lathe configuration for an operation that can't be put off until the next time the machine is set up in the required configuration.

This will give you some indication of how well you'll be able to cope with the primary detraction inherent in every 3-in-1 machine.


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## Richard1 (Feb 9, 2010)

It can be done I have in the past done quite a bit of milling set up with odd setups on the cross slide you just get everything just about set up and remember you need a turned part for something and have to tear it down again. It gets annoying very fast. If you can afford 2 machines and have the space for them then look seriously at this option. Of course I am just a gadget freak so what do I know.

Richard.


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## Tin Falcon (Feb 9, 2010)

I personaly dislike changing setups and tooling. I upgraded to a south bend 9" from a 7 x 10. I have kept and use the 7 x 10. I am converting the X-2 mill to CNC and at times wish I had a second mill. The shaper keeps me from going crazy. 
IMHO I would get absolutely no where if I just had a 3 in 1. I seem to be in the building fixing upgrading machines mode right now rather than building models . Oh well. 

What about getting a mill or lathe you like then use the unimat for the other machine, mill or lathe then store the unimat on a shelf under the bench when not in use. Then when you have the funds and space buy another machine. 
Tin


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## Maryak (Feb 10, 2010)

Flynt,

I understand space is at a premium in your circumstance. If you can find the space for a small lathe and a small mill then I think you will be much more satisfied in our hobby.

IMHO a 3 in one is a compromise at best and like all compromises, something/one suffers.

Hope this helps and more importantly I hope you will be satisfied with your decision.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Deanofid (Feb 10, 2010)

There are a few folks here who have similar machines, and I definitely do not want to offend those owners. A person can do a lot of things when he has no alternative but to use what he has. I did, for about four years. 

I bought this type of machine over 15 years ago. It wasn't this exact brand, (it was blue, and had a name that started with an S). 

I made some money with that machine doing piece work for a company that needed a great gob of bushings, and that work lasted about three years. I also made a few fun things for myself, but it got un-fun very fast. I'm not going to say anything about the accuracy of the machine. You can make most any machine accurate enough to use if you have the time. It had to be kept after all the time, but I did get good work out of it, or that company wouldn't have keep sending me their work.

I bought it only because it was all I thought could fit in my 6' x 8' shop at the time. I would have been better off buying a 9" lathe and using a milling attachment until I could fit in a dedicated milling machine. The 3in1 machine was so cumbersome to setup when changing configurations that it was just flat unpleasant to use. You need to look _way_ ahead on your setups, or you will end up repeating previous setups. 

After nearly four years of using that machine, I sold it. I made it pay for itself, and for a number of other things, but I had to dedicate myself to it. I had the feeling it was not my machine, but that I was it's person. I don't remember another time that I was so glad to unload something. I told the buyer why I was selling it. Explained to him the setup problems, the milling head that wouldn't stay put, the need to babysit it, the other things I disliked about that machine. I didn't want him to hate me a month after he got it home. I'll bet he still does, though. 

Think twice, and then think twice again. Get a lathe and milling machine, if at all possible. 

Dean


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## Flynt (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi 

And thanks for all the replies, to be honest its is abt what i expected i know the 3in1 route is a compromise and one i am not really sure i want to make.... so it looks like its going to be a 920 and a small milling rig then. I will just have to work out the space problem, and cost wise there is not that much difference.

The problem is its always hard finding unbiased advice , its one of the reasons i joined this forum after finding it, i have been trawling the net for weeks looking for product and performance reviews on 3in1's and found next to nothing, Yet its almost in information overload with details performance/improvement/modding of standard rigs. not sure if this is a sign of how few 3in1's are sold and used or how hard they are to manage.

Still the replies here have given me the nudge i needed to drop the combo machine idea and go for something more main stream so many thanks all.


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## BigBore (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi Flynt,

I was going through the same mental process that you are now. I think I am going to go with a 9X20 myself. Did you try Yahoo Groups? 

http://groups.yahoo.com/

If you "search groups" for "3 in 1" there are several groups. If nothing else, it gives one a feel for what's going on in their world. A lot of reading, but hey, all knowledge is good if it doesn't warp your brain, right?

Ed


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## SAM in LA (Feb 10, 2010)

Flynt,

I have a ShopTask 3 in 1 that was manufactured in 1994.

I received it with a lot of tooling for next to nothing.

I have done a lot of work to it trying to tighten it up and improve its accuracy.

It doesn't help that I am also trying to learn how to operate it.

I agree that it is a real pain to switch from using the lathe to using the mill.

The biggest problem I have is that the mill is not rigid enough in my opinion.

In the future I would like to buy a toolroom type lathe and a good, heavy vertical mill.

I am amazed by the quality of the machining that the craftsmen on this site achieve with the small lathes and mills.

After saying all of that, if I was buying new equipment, I would buy the very best standalone machines that I could afford.

Good luck,

SAM


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## capjak (Feb 10, 2010)

I have a Smithy 3in1 machine that I picked up for $250.00 at an estate sale last year. I have since put about $500.00 more into tooling. I agree that the mill function barely functions. I can get acceptable results if I take a lot of time. The lathe function works fine except for threading. I have found it easier to use a die when I have to thread a piece. You do have to plan ahead when you are working and after making the same mistake a couple of times you learn to think about six times before you cut. I hope to upgrade to individual machines when the finances allow. I expect to be able to reuse most of the tooling on the new machines. I don't regret my purchase or the work needed to improve the functions. Based on what I have read on this forum and others, very few of the machines presently available are ready to use out of the box. I previously had an Atlas/Craftsman 618 lathe and am more satisfied with the Smithy.


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## xr6t (Feb 10, 2010)

8)It would seem that a great number of us newbies have the same problem.

I am trying to set up a neat little workshop at the end of my garage. (Neat - now my wife would like to see that!) the room I have is 6'x7'. I have managed to place the new 9x20 lathe lengthways along the garage wall and the car parks about 12 inches from it. A bench under the window and a hot water service alongside. I have just ordered a small mill and was surprised how much room is needed to fit this in. 

I went to a local machine shop for some advice and he pointed out to me that you have to have access to either side, room for the table to slide each way and still get to the handles. Well, there goes the bench. I will try and make some bench space somewere. It is really an exercise in space management.

As I said to the wife last night, this will force me to have a good clean out of all the junk in the garage.


Incidentally, the mill I was able to purchase at a great price included the stand is a Optimum BF20L Vario. Apparently made in China to German specs and design. Should arrive next week.

Good luck with your choices.

KenM


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## mklotz (Feb 10, 2010)

Is there a possibility of building a foldup bench? Perhaps something hinged to the garage wall that can be folded down when in use? Obviously, it would only be suitable for light duty work but that describes a lot of what we do when making small engines.

My shop occupies the excess space in a garage that still houses two cars on a daily basis. While I have a sturdy permanent workbench, I made two smallish (~ 2 x 3') folding tables that attach to it and provide room for many sit down tasks such as using the Unimat, layout, filing, assembling, etc.. Since they have to be folded and stored away (vertically along the garage wall) in order to park the cars, it's impossible for them to become repositories for the inevitable junk accumulation - they're always uncluttered when I need to use them. They fold and store quickly so the annoyance of having to unlimber them when I need to use them is minimized.

In my less sane moments, I've considered building a "drive over" light duty workbench. This would be a fold flat table with its width somewhat less than the distance between the wheels of the car so that, when folded flat on the floor, the car could be parked over it.


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## SAM in LA (Feb 10, 2010)

xr6t  said:
			
		

> 8)It would seem that a great number of us newbies have the same problem.
> 
> I am trying to set up a neat little workshop at the end of my garage. (Neat - now my wife would like to see that!) the room I have is 6'x7'. I have managed to place the new 9x20 lathe lengthways along the garage wall and the car parks about 12 inches from it. A bench under the window and a hot water service alongside. I have just ordered a small mill and was surprised how much room is needed to fit this in.
> 
> ...



My space managment plan was simple.
Park+50K cars outside to make room for my $1K machine tools.


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## xr6t (Feb 11, 2010)

Hey Marv,

How come the simplist solutions are the most difficult to figure out? ???

Now, why didn't I think of that?? :

Folding b%&$#@y workbenches and under the car type. Thanks for ANOTHER project, as if I haven't got enough already. :

KenM


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## mklotz (Feb 11, 2010)

Another thing I did was build a light duty electronics bench that bridges the hood (bonnet) of one of the cars. It's become a storage area now but in its day it was quite handy. I could sit at the bench with my feet on the car's front bumper and build circuits all day. During our winter when it can get chilly it was especially pleasant to work after having driven the car. The engine heat kept me toasty warm.


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## Metal Butcher (Feb 11, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Another thing I did was build a light duty electronics bench that bridges the hood (bonnet) of one of the cars. It's become a storage area now but in its day it was quite handy. I could sit at the bench with my feet on the car's front bumper and build circuits all day. During our winter when it can get chilly it was especially pleasant to work after having driven the car. The engine heat kept me toasty warm.



That's ingenious Marv! Reminds me of an interesting fellow I observed when I was working.

The guy that unloaded inbound freight at work would bring a ham and cheese sandwich wrapped in foil. Twenty minutes before lunch he would place it on top of the hot manifold of the lift truck he operated, creating a hot ham and cheese sandwich without having to walk a half mile to the break room. We found it very entertaining!

-MB


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## 4156df (Feb 11, 2010)

> My space managment plan was simple.
> Park+50K cars outside to make room for my $1K machine tools.



SAMinLA...

My solution exactly and I'm sure I've got my priorities in the right order! 

Dennis


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## mklotz (Feb 11, 2010)

This is an old picture...







but you can see the bench in the background.

Before anyone asks, the 'thing' in the foreground is my 'IV stand', another of my hare-brained contraptions for utilizing every cubic inch of space available in Garaj Mahal.


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## Troutsqueezer (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm guessing your wife designates you as the one who pulls the car into the Taj Garage...

-t


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## mklotz (Feb 11, 2010)

No way, Trout. We both park our cars ourselves although there are some parking aids not visible in the photos.

Ping-pong balls suspended from the ceiling just touch the windshields when the cars are perfectly positioned fore and aft.


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## kellswaterri (Feb 11, 2010)

I guess its the local ''Bourbon'' in the ''I.V.s'' ;D


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