# Does longer lathe ways have any disadvantage



## hacklordsniper

Ready to order my new lathe, still need to clear one detail.

Its 410 mm swing (Chinese CM6241) and can be had in 1000 and 1500 mm center distance. Until now i had 700 mm center distance and was happy with it. 

I will never need long working distance as 1500 mm but im considering it because there is a tiny price difference. Is there some disadvantage in having so long ways and not needing them? Is lathe with longer ways in some way more unstable?


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## tms6401

In my experience, the longer the better if for no other reason than "parking" tailstock. I find that quite often I wish I had just a bit longer bed. They usually do take up a wee bit more floor space, but if that is not a concern then go for it.

tms


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## hacklordsniper

No, floor space is not of any problem. The workshop is quite small about 30 m2, but lathe has its reserved place and it does not matter will it be 50 cm longer or shorter. 

The only question is are shorter ways more stiff (stronger) or is there any disadvantage i should know. This is my 4th lathe and i hope final for rest of life so want to make it "perfect buy" (if that exists)


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## spinningwheels

It is a chinese lathe , so do not expect it to be your last .
Think that for bout the same price you can get a real nice used  ( east) european made lathe.
Even a older lathe ( like from the 60s) will last way longer than any Chinese.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello, sorry but that is not a point of discussion. I have a nice clean new workshop and like to keep it that way and there is no place for rusty old, beaten, oil dripping iron. This is why only a brand new lathe is considered, same as other my machines. I cant see why this lathe would not be my last, it has everything i could wish for + triple the size i need. I sold my last 11X27 lathe only because i got tired of changing gears for threading and feed speeds. 

Generally i have good experience with Chinese machines

 You can see how it looks from the lathe part:


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## rodw

If you have the room, get the longer one. As said, the tailstock on the bigger lathes takes up a fair bit oof room. Sometimes, I have taken mine off and mine only has a 320mm swing. 

I am glad somebody has put the case for a new lathe. Every time I buy something used, there is something that is not as it seems and requires fixing or eventually I discard it in favour of a new one. I am so glad to have had my lathe from new over the last couple of years and now it is set up the way I want it. Maybe in some countries buying used is an option but it does not stack up where I live.


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## Swifty

I'm with Rod on this one, this aversion that a lot of people have to Chinese machinery is misguided, sure the small bench top machines that are made by the thousands are often not up to scratch and need rebuilding, but the larger machines are quite OK. I have had a Chinese / Taiwanese lathe for over 10 years and it's great. My milling machine is made in Taiwan and it's as good as the Bridgeports, and it was a lot cheaper.

Unfortunately, some of our members still have the attitude that unless it's made in the country they live in, all the rest is rubbish. There is a whole other world out there and they are getting better at making things by the day.

Hacklordsniper, I googled the lathe that you are looking at, it looks like a very nice machine, as to the bed length, I can't see why the longer bed would be any problem. Invest in a machine level and set the lathe up properly, carefully checking all the way along the bed, then enjoy using your new lathe.

Paul.


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## Tin Falcon

You could lose some stiffness on a longer bed but I think given the choice most people would go with the longer bed. 
Tin


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## spinningwheels

a chinese looks nice when new, but what when you need parts after 20 years.
I have a 1960 Meuser lathe, so 54 years old now, got some new parts from  the factory , they even restore those older lathes themself.
It cuts 250 plus diferend treads , I updated it myself with a DRO and frequentie controll unit.
I will bet a six pack that a chinese wont last that long.
just a pic ol the oil dripping rusty old iron, 
this was half way the update, , now have just the controll panel of the frequenty controll , mouted next to the DRO


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## Tin Falcon

Spinningwheels : I think you are spinning your wheels here. You are entitled to your opinion. And the other guys are entitled to theirs. The question here was about bed length . I saw no question about what lathe brand to buy or anything about old iron vs import. 
So let it go.There is no need to try to get a argument or debate going about import lathes vs old domestic equipment. . This is one of those hot topics to be avoided. 

Some guys like new import equipment some like old equipment . I have some of each.  the best lathe is the one that is available at a price you can afford.  the cheap old lathe only works if you are standing in front of the deal money in hand and  have a way to get it home.  
Tin


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## hacklordsniper

Tin Falcon, that you for your support and i really have no intention to start any kind of China VS old iron. I checked old iron that is available prior to purchasing this big lathe (this is my 4 th China lathe, and i just ordered my second China milling machine). 

This is "old iron" that i can buy for China machine money:









And this is a machine i can buy new for same money:





I think they are not comparable. I know i will have to debur a hole or two, tighten a screw or two, clean some casting sand... But it is nothing comparable to  ~ 40 year old machine which has 40 years of machining on it, quite many abusive operators, lots of wear and that would require a year or two of work to look like a machine. I don't have resources, knowledge, time, will and tools to restore such machine and again in the end it will still be old machine. There is a high chance those Chinese model lathes will still be in production in 20 years, and if not and part is unavailable it can always be made by fellow machinists. Old iron was something in its days, but today is something else.

I really don't want to start any kind of war, but im searching only opinion on way length, not machine country of manufacture or year of production.


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## RonGinger

I will take a shot at prolonging this old vs china topic with a recent experience. I owned and old Clausing 8513 mill for many years. This is a highly desirable old American made mill. Over the years I replaced the screws, did some scraping, even paid a pro to do some scraping. But it was still an old machine, and a few months ago I got tired of its foibles and decided to sell it. ( Truth be know I just decided I wanted a new machine)

So I bought a Grizly 0704. Yes, it had some sharp edges along the dovetails, but it has tapered gibs, a larger table, slightly more travel in all directions, and its all bright and shiny. I think I will like it more than the Clausing as I get to use it more. I paid less for it than what I sold the Clausing for.

It is true that the Chinese make some junk, but they have also learned to make very good machinery as well. Remember when made in Japan meant junk? There are some very bright people in all of the world, not just here in the US.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello, i had this same lathe, not from Grizzly but clone (Optimum BF20L). I was quite happy with it for about 2 years and sold it now to buy much larger mill. What i missed on it is Z-axis power feed, little bit more power (i overheated the motor few times when doing 20 mm deep cuts in aluminum, but the machine is not designed for it anyway). All together i had positive experience, when recieving i disasembled to pieces and cleaned everything. Not much work except the x axis leadscrew which was covered in mix of cosmoline/grease/cast iron dust and swarf


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## Niels Abildgaard

Why not try?

When you get your longbed lathe put a DTI from crossslide to something like you would a cutting tool and put some well defined force downward like cutting will do and se what movement.
If a shortbed gentleman does the same and results are not very different bedlength means nothing or otherwise.That would interest me very much more than the glory of old iron.n


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## rodw

I am sure you won't find any sand in the castings of  machine of that size. I couldn't. The only thing I spent some time on was to get one of the jaws in the 4 jaw chuck to spin freely. But then, after a hard workout, some swarf caused a bur in my 3 jaw which needed a quick stroke of a file to fix. My Chinese spindle has zero runout and all chucks are within normal specs.

Some of the Chinese lathes in this country have been on the market with the one distributor (that I used) for the last 10-15 years, maybe more. I have never had any problems getting parts. If not in stock locally, it is on my doorstep from interstate in 24-48 hours freight free.

So all in all, I think the Old Iron is a myth (certainly in a lot of parts of the world where used machines of any quality are like hens teeth!)

Anyway, my lathe has paid for itself making components 50% faster than my previous lathe so even if it dies totally (totally unlikely), I am not really out of pocket!


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## Brian Rupnow

There is no downside to having the longer bed lathe, other than a bit of space. Tailstock parking is a big issue. Being able to mount the topslide at 90 degrees to the saddle is a real benefit. but if you have the short bed style you may have to set the topslide at 30 degrees simply for clearance between it and the tailstock. i say, go for the long bed.


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## GWRdriver

"Sorry but that is not a point of discussion"

Frequently my sentiments exactly, but as for the lathe bed . . . in the USA, where then and now the live steam population contains a fair percentage of members with industrial backgrounds, and who also build in 7"+ga, the quick advice is always longer is better.  When I was just coming in (early 1960s) the advice to newcomers was always to get the longest bed available.

The curious thing I observed however was that none of the old hands whose workshops I visited or was mentored in ever made use of the extra foot or two or three of bed, except as a tool or tea cup shelf.  This told me that the extra long bed they said was a must-have was in fact something held over from their days at "the Works", where they might very well be called upon to turn long shafts, rather than what would be needed and used as a model engineer.

When I bought my "last" lathe (an 11" British toolroom lathe in 1984) a 500mm (short) and 750mm (standard) bed were available.  I knew the 500mm bed had the potential to at some point lack sufficient center length and be a problem.  On the other end of the scale, if a much longer bed, say 1000mm to 1500mm had been available I knew the probability was I would never make use of that length, so the 750mm bed was chosen and I have never regretted that choice.   Not to long, not too short, it has been an ideal length for my model engineering work.


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## Jos360

I've owned a lathe with a 4' between centers for about 5 years. It was an old machine. I always thought it would be profitable but I've never used it. I decided to get a smaller toolroom lathe with only 3' between centers and one of the first jobs that turned up was machining a 3.5' shaft. 
I got it done on the small lathe (you always will get it done) but I wish it had come up 3 weeks earlier, when I still had the big one.

My opinion: even though you hardly use it, if the price is OK and you have the room: get it.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello,

thanks for all advices and tips. In the end i ordered longer one, at this moment i can surely say i will never need it but the price difference is so small (little bit less than 200 $ to be precise) that i decided to take it. So 410 X1500 mm is starting to be built in far China, and i need to prepare how to move in trough steps, small door and my yard a 2 ton lathe.

And to remeber i started with 140X250 mm lathe 2 years ago...


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## Roy6126

hi I just had a quick look on the web to see what type of lathe you are considering. I until recently had a small commercial workshop with a long and a short bed version of what you are looking at. Firstly you need have no worries at all about rigidity with the longer bed and the previous comment about getting the tail stock out of the way is totally correct.
Plus if you are in my age range 60-70 yrs are you likely to live long enough to wear it out, I only sold mine because my shed workshop floor at home would not have taken the weight. They were real work horses. So if you have the room go for the longer one you never know that extra length may come in very handy one day.
Hope this helps and enjoy your new machine Roy


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## spinningwheels

When  i see on your pics , what you can buy  for the same money I total undrstand your choise  for china
I paid 1000 euro for my meuser lathe, here we can buy decent old iron for verry little . may I be so rude to ask you what a china lathe cost incuding transport and tax.

Remco


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## hacklordsniper

Roy6126 said:


> hi I just had a quick look on the web to see what type of lathe you are considering. I until recently had a small commercial workshop with a long and a short bed version of what you are looking at. Firstly you need have no worries at all about rigidity with the longer bed and the previous comment about getting the tail stock out of the way is totally correct.
> Plus if you are in my age range 60-70 yrs are you likely to live long enough to wear it out, I only sold mine because my shed workshop floor at home would not have taken the weight. They were real work horses. So if you have the room go for the longer one you never know that extra length may come in very handy one day.
> Hope this helps and enjoy your new machine Roy



Thats a comment i was waiting to hear, im 28 at this moment so i hope i will have time to wear it out


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## hacklordsniper

spinningwheels said:


> When  i see on your pics , what you can buy  for the same money I total undrstand your choise  for china
> I paid 1000 euro for my meuser lathe, here we can buy decent old iron for verry little . may I be so rude to ask you what a china lathe cost incuding transport and tax.
> 
> Remco



Im not sure howmuch my quote will help you since in different country but im in EU so it can help to some people atleast. I will speak about 1500 mm center distance model.

Depending on the manufacturer (some better, some worse quality) and reseller ( you should really buy from manufacturer, not a reseller) the pricing starts like this

1. Bare lathe, nothing special, 1800 RPM, 2.8 kW motor 3300 -4600 $, 4 jaw, face plate, follow and steady rest included

Mine is a little bit below 10 000 $, and here is what i got (keep in mind i have some special wishes) :

1. Lathe
2. 3 axis dro with constant speed cutting function
3. 5.5 kW motor
4. Frequency inverter Mitsubishi, single phase input, lathe speed variable
5. Geared headstock with 8 gears (usually variable speed lathes leave only H and L gear)
6. Little bits like leadscrew cover, work lamp, feedshaft clutch, toolpost cover... this are all extras
6. 40 position QCTP with 10 normal tool holders, 3 boring holders, 1 cut off tool holder
7. Upgrade to 3000 RPM model
8. 4 high speed steel chucks (3 jaw, 4 jaw self centering, 4 jaw invidually centering, 6 jaw)
9. Lots of bits like indexable tools, rotating center with replacable tips, bull live center, precision level, leveling feet, drill chucks various sizes, arbors... its a very long list, i cant remember all of it now but can post if needed

In the end, lathe is about 7000 $ and acessories are about 2800 $. I bought all acessoires now because they are cheaper, i can be sure they fit my machine perfectly. 

So its 9800 $ FOB (free on board China) and there recieved by my agent. There is about 50 $ manipulating fee in harbor and some LCL (less than container load costs) which can be up to 350 $. 

Price of sea freight will be arround 790 $, little bit more expensive because i requested acessories separate crate packaging ( last time they put a faceplate in box with lathe and it damaged many things),

10990 $ when it arrives to my port + 5 % customs. 11540 $ ready for pickup in port, since we have trucks at work i will not have any costs from port to my home as some driver will pick it up "by the way". On that add 25 % of goverment tax, but if you own a company like me you get it back. So total cost is 11540 $, which is amazingly cheap for equipment and acessories it comes with.

Enjoy some factory photos, i have many more, even some from casting department  . Please note, pictures come from different manufacturers.


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## hacklordsniper

Just a little update, due to the spreadsheet error on proforma invoice, machine is actually 1000 $ cheaper, so remove about 1500 $ from price for total, so about 10 000 $us


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## Niels Abildgaard

Hard time for european and usa lathe manufacturerers ahead,but I want one:


http://czdm45.en.busytrade.com/selling_leads/info/1203547/Sell-Bench-Lathe-CQ6133.html


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## spinningwheels

So about 7350 in euro. with all the options and tools.
I must admit that when I had a budget like that  it would be tempthing to go chinese.
I realy like the controll for the frequentie controll  on the dro .
I did about the same , took the frequentie controll unit apart end mounted the display and the controll next to the dro.

Recmo

PS I´m also in europe, 
The Netherlands


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## SmithDoor

I did not know  import lathes vs old domestic equipment is a hot topic. I use both domestic and import. They both need work and just fix both.

 Dave



Tin Falcon said:


> Spinningwheels : I think you are spinning your wheels here. You are entitled to your opinion. And the other guys are entitled to theirs. The question here was about bed length . I saw no question about what lathe brand to buy or anything about old iron vs import.
> So let it go.There is no need to try to get a argument or debate going about import lathes vs old domestic equipment. . This is one of those hot topics to be avoided.
> 
> Some guys like new import equipment some like old equipment . I have some of each. the best lathe is the one that is available at a price you can afford. the cheap old lathe only works if you are standing in front of the deal money in hand and have a way to get it home.
> Tin


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## Tin Falcon

> I did not know import lathes vs old domestic equipment is a hot topic. I use both domestic and import. They both need work and just fix both.
> 
> Dave



Dave: I agree that almost any Lathe or mill one buys for the home hobby shop will likely need work. The imports of lack the quality fit finish  we expect and old machines may have excessive were or have been abused and or neglected. 

as far as it being a hot topic  yes it can be and has been in the past. 
What folks fail to realize is this hobby is a journey of a thousand paths. 
whether one chooses a big lathe small lathe old lathe new lathe..... is going to be affected by many factors. Some of these factors are experience and age, income level geographic location etc. Some people get the my way or highway attitude. or my tools(toys) are better than yours. 
I have been involved in on line machinist forums  a long time ,about 10 years. I have had to deal with people that got into verbal altercations about old vs new iron. 
Tin


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## Lathejack

Hacklordsniper.

I think you've made a fine choice of new lathe there, those particular Chinese lathes have a good pedigree as they are based on the old original Colchester lathe design of the 1970's such as the Student 1800 and larger models. Some of the castings are the same, with similar headstock controls and the same screwcutting gearbox controls including the joystick type lever.

 Although it could be argued that the shorter bed version is potentially more rigid than the longer machine, you won't notice any problems as the longer bed is still more than rigid enough for anything the lathe is capable of. The Chinese also tend to pour plenty of iron in their castings, particularly the bed, which are usually quite a bit thicker and heavier than similar machines from Taiwan and Korea. The lathes are also bolted to a very hefty one piece cast iron stand which makes the whole thing even more solid.

 I have also been thinking about getting one of these lathes as well, over here in the UK they are sold by the Chester Machine Tool company, they call them the Bristol Lathe, BSA machine tools also sell them. I have also been unable to decide whether to go for the 1000 or 1500 version, not because of any concerns about rigidity but because of trying to house it in my workshop, and possibly moving it in the future. I know if I go for the shorter one then not long after I will get a job to make a new shaft or axle that is too long to fit in the lathe.

 One of the main reasons I have for possibly going for that particular machine, apart from its Colchester design, is that it is more of a proper industrial spec compared to some other similar sized new Chinese lathes. The headstock spindle is supported on three bearings instead of two, they have a larger diameter corse pitch leadscrew, larger guideways on the bed and a slideway oil pump on the carraige, very nice.

 The photos you posted are very interesting, hopefully you will post some more, particularly of the manufacturing process if you have any. Good luck with the lathe and keep us posted how you get on with it when it arrives.


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## rodw

I gotta say, I am very jealous. I wish I had the room for something like this when I bought my lathe. It was my second so I went for the biggest I could fit in my (little) shed.


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## hacklordsniper

Well my workshop is quite small, but i will push it in somehow.

Here is some more pictures to enjoy. I have more at my work


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## hacklordsniper

Lathejack said:


> Hacklordsniper.
> The headstock spindle is supported on three bearings instead of two,



I checked this, the spindle is supported on two bearings


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## Lathejack

Oh no, that's a bit of a disappointment. Grizzly do a version of it and that shows three bearings and I checked with Chester machines quite a while ago and they claimed three. But if you are speaking to the manufacturer then I would think the info you have is the most reliable.

Regards.


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## hacklordsniper

Lathejack said:


> Oh no, that's a bit of a disappointment. Grizzly do a version of it and that shows three bearings and I checked with Chester machines quite a while ago and they claimed three. But if you are speaking to the manufacturer then I would think the info you have is the most reliable.
> 
> Regards.



Here is a quote from their website "&#9679; With 2 precision D degree taper roller bearings on the spindle.", 


but i also sent an e-mail to check, could take a while since the sales guy is on vacation in France for a week.


EDIT: I think i see where is a problem, here is parts of Grizzly manual, lathe uses 3 bearings, but 2 tapered and one ball bearing




free upload pictures




how to print screen on pc


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## SmithDoor

This is good size for most work 16x60 inch The only draw back is space if you room long is better if do the work. 

 Dave  


hacklordsniper said:


> Ready to order my new lathe, still need to clear one detail.
> 
> Its 410 mm swing (Chinese CM6241) and can be had in 1000 and 1500 mm center distance. Until now i had 700 mm center distance and was happy with it.
> 
> I will never need long working distance as 1500 mm but im considering it because there is a tiny price difference. Is there some disadvantage in having so long ways and not needing them? Is lathe with longer ways in some way more unstable?


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## gustavus

hacklordsniper said:


> Ready to order my new lathe, still need to clear one detail.
> 
> Its 410 mm swing (Chinese CM6241) and can be had in 1000 and 1500 mm center distance. Until now i had 700 mm center distance and was happy with it.
> 
> I will never need long working distance as 1500 mm but im considering it because there is a tiny price difference. Is there some disadvantage in having so long ways and not needing them? Is lathe with longer ways in some way more unstable?



Had similar problems with my brand new King 14x40, King Canada supplied all new parts for the headstock.

CM6241 -- [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d5gRRVj9jk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d5gRRVj9jk[/ame]


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## Lindo

Bought my Real Bull lathe from Amadeal (UK) and a Weiss Mill some 6 years ago.
Yes there are a few fine tuning jobs to be done and stylise to how you want it to work,for the price versus quality,I like the Chinese machines.

John
Spain


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## TinyTool

Personally I am siding with Spinning Wheels, on the traditional European lathe.

However, his take on the subject, is just a little too lacking in traditional leanings, and thus not only is the Chinese lathe total garbage, so is the "late period" European lathe, that he is so fond of.

He is a photograph of me using my lathe, sure it's a classical, Kodak moment - with quill and ink, but it's still as fresh as the day it was drawn.


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## Swifty

I've got a 14 X 40 Chinese made lathe and I couldn't be any more happier with it. I've had it for 10 years and not one problem.

However we are all getting a bit off topic, the original reason for this topic was whether a longer bed lathe was a good choice.

Paul.


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## dman

there may be long term advantages to american or english machines such as long term parts availability. southbend still stocks some parts from when they got started and has all the old records to know what you need based on your serial number.

but i'm sure a chinese lathe of decent size will last the hobbyist quite a long time. and a new lathe won't have bad spindle bearings, or worn out lead screws. and hopefully the ways will be decent and parallel.. i know muelernick has some scraping videos of a chinese lathe and he doesnt seem very fond of it, but if you go around looking at "old" machines you are likely to find a lot of wear that can cause big problems.

a larger machine has a bigger need for leveling. i've worked with large surfacers for engine blocks and cylinder heads as well as seat and guide machines (aka "head shop" machines) and they need to be leveled at both ends as well as down the length because they will twist or corkscrew if all the corners heights aren't set the same. on a lathe or surfacer this will cause he carriage to rock and leave marks in the parts. on the seat and guide machine the fixture won't float on the air cushion.

really the only disadvantage to a longer bed is the time spent on the initial install with a precision level.


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## neptune769

I have worked in the past as a machinist for 13 years. I have run many types of machines. But primarily manual lathes. So my thought is the bigger the longer you can afford and have space and power for get that. You can always make small items but you can't make large ones. But you also have to consider the cost of tooling on larger machines. But since your mainly concerned with the bed length get the longer one. As one person said earlier. you can park the tail stock further out of the way. My lathe at home is 18 inch centers and I wished it was like 25 inches. 

Dennis L.


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## TinyTool

After all, you might get the urge to do some wood turning and make up some bed posts and similar.

At least you won't look as ungay as you would, if you were turning a 1.5 meter bed post, on a band saw.

Personally - I'd be requesting a lathe with a 5 meter bed - just to be sure.


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## hacklordsniper

That broken headstock surely looks sad. Does someone understand what are they saying? Is there a reason this happened (tool post driven in chuck jaws)? I would really like to know more, it seems quite strange.

I will definately show this video to my manufacturer and ask for comments what could have happened?


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## gustavus

The beginning of my disaster, I was turning a heavy piece in the headstock using the foot brake to stop rotation.

The splined shaft which supports the sliding change gears inside the headstock is not splined but merely has a long keyway milled into the shaft, the key is made from soft metal which was skewed from the inertia of the extra weight in the chuck being slowed by the foot brake. The gears now misaligned self destructed over the next two months with the filings eventually taking out the bearings.

King Canada is very good to honour their product but it would have required me transposing the lathe back to Winnipeg a 4 hour drive one way for me which I did not want to do as a compromise KC sent the replacement parts direct to my home address.

The lathe after replacing all the bearings and gears has performed well these past four years.

The brass inserts used on the steady rest is another joke, also the Chinese should add a bit of nickel to their castings, for example the older chevy small blocks designated 010 had a high nickel content and the british used I believe some addition of chrome to the casting alloy.

I agree always get the longest lathe bed you can house.


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## hacklordsniper

Tinytool, i dont understand meaning of your posts on this topic? They seem somehow offensive or insulting?


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## Tin Falcon

Agreed the post was deleted  this type of humor or whatever does not follow the goals of this forum. 
Tin


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## Lathejack

Oh dear, oh dear, I am loosing confidence in these particular lathes more and more.

Gustavus.
That was a mighty disaster your machine suffered there, is the headstock casting actually cracked as a result as well?

I am stunned that they are still cutting costs by using single keyway shafts in the headstocks of these heavier type of 14x40 machines instead of splined shafts, are any of the shafts in there splined?

I have owned a Chinese 13x30 geared head lathe for around ten years now. Although it has heavy rigid castings the eight speed headstock uses single keyway shafts throughout, so it is definitely still only a light duty machine. The spindle brake is used strictly for emergencies only, and a VFD I fitted gives a gentle start up to lighten the load when it's turned on.

I do hope the 16 inch swing version that I was considering does use splined shafts throughout the headstock, perhaps Hacklordsniper would be good enough to ask the factory that he is dealing with if they do or not.

Kind regards.


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## gustavus

Lathejack said:


> Oh dear, oh dear, I am loosing confidence in these particular lathes more and more.
> 
> Gustavus.
> That was a mighty disaster your machine suffered there, is the headstock casting actually cracked as a result as well?
> 
> I am stunned that they are still cutting costs by using single keyway shafts in the headstocks of these heavier type of 14x40 machines instead of splined shafts, are any of the shafts in there splined?
> 
> I have owned a Chinese 13x30 geared head lathe for around ten years now. Although it has heavy rigid castings the eight speed headstock uses single keyway shafts throughout, so it is definitely still only a light duty machine. The spindle brake is used strictly for emergencies only, and a VFD I fitted gives a gentle start up to lighten the load when it's turned on.
> 
> I do hope the 16 inch swing version that I was considering does use splined shafts throughout the headstock, perhaps Hacklordsniper would be good enough to ask the factory that he is dealing with if they do or not.
> 
> Kind regards.



Replaced everything March 10/2010, King 14x40 metal lathe. I got an ear once I had posted a video clip to the web complete with sound.The lathe sounded like a worn out thrashing machine.

No the machine did not lock up or break any of the castings, just full of metal filings, making a horrible noise.


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## gustavus

On the King website the largest lathe they post a parts list is for the 1440ML-6, one other problem I've had with my 14x40 the tail stock quill is secured from turning with one very short key called a stop pin which is prone to shearing off.

Check out part number 483 on page 8 of the parts list.

Before laying out hat hard earned cash on the 16 inch lathe ask for a parts list, this way you'll know if the shafts are splined or keyed.

http://www.kingcanada.com/Files/KC-1440ML-6_service_manual.pdf

The bed castings are far from perfect do not be surprised to find large pockets of porosity filled with auto body filler before the machine was painted for export.

Would I purchase another Chinese lathe - NO.


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## Lathejack

Gustavus.

Thanks for posting the photos, the shafts look to be the same as in my 13 inch lathe. Is the lathe in the video clip you posted on this thread your lathe that was damaged?

Some of the Chinese 14x40 lathes are simply stretched versions of my 13 inch type with the same external components and the same internals. But the one in your video is one of the heavier type with all different components and I have seen these advertised as having splined headstock shafts, so I am a bit puzzled.

Hacklordsniper.

Do you have a delivery date yet for your new lathe? Did you say you have got to move it down some steps to get it in your workshop? I would like to come and give you some help, but I think you are a bit too far away.

At work we have a long bed Colchester Triumph 2500, this is also about 1500 between centres. It was bought new around five years ago. This lathe is really a modern Harrison design simply badged as a Colchester and is also made in China. Despite some problems it has had it is as solid as a rock and machines superbly. This also sits on a one piece cast iron stand similar to your new lathe.
It has a three speed geared head plus variable speed.

Regards.


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## gustavus

Lathejack said:


> Gustavus.
> 
> Thanks for posting the photos, the shafts look to be the same as in my 13 inch lathe. Is the lathe in the video clip you posted on this thread your lathe that was damaged?
> 
> Some of the Chinese 14x40 lathes are simply stretched versions of my 13 inch type with the same external components and the same internals. But the one in your video is one of the heavier type with all different components and I have seen these advertised as having splined headstock shafts, so I am a bit puzzled.
> 
> Hacklordsniper.
> 
> Do you have a delivery date yet for your new lathe? Did you say you have got to move it down some steps to get it in your workshop? I would like to come and give you some help, but I think you are a bit too far away.
> 
> At work we have a long bed Colchester Triumph 2500, this is also about 1500 between centres. It was bought new around five years ago. This lathe is really a modern Harrison design simply badged as a Colchester and is also made in China. Despite some problems it has had it is as solid as a rock and machines superbly. This also sits on a one piece cast iron stand similar to your new lathe.
> It has a three speed geared head plus variable speed.
> 
> Regards.



Your welcome for the pictures, unfortunately my 14 x 40 Youtube video from 2010 is long gone.


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## Lathejack

Gustavus.

I have just looked at the link in your recent post and I see that the King 14 inch lathe you have that is shown is the type that I mentioned previously, the same as my 13 inch lathe but with an increased spindle centre hight. That's why your headstock internals are the same as mine. The lathe on the video you posted here isn't the damaged one you described and is a different machine that is the same as the type that Hacklordsniper is buying and that I am considering, I feel a bit better now.

Best regards.


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## hacklordsniper

Lathejack, you are correct that machine is completly different. However i have some good news.

This lathe contains splined shaft, possibly some other cheaper manufacturers (there is some) uses keyway shafts. He will send me pictures od headstock soon. I will also recieve comments from engineers what happened with lathe from video, and under what conditions could it happen. Its first time they see something like this.

Also there is more variants of this machine, my type is Heavy industrial engine lathe, and higher pricing reflects some changes that cheaper manufacturers dont have.

Here is a picture of headstock




forum image hosting

Also Gus, thank you for nice comments. The production of machine lasts 60-90 days after recieving deposit + ~35 days on ship + 7 days customs procedures... it can be up to 150 days from order to moving it in. You are free to come to help, we will find some nice fishing cabin for you to sleep over


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## Lathejack

Hello Hacklordsniper .

Thanks for the photo of the headstock, it confirms what I thought all along, that they use three spindle bearings and splined shafts. These are some of the reasons why I have been considering one of these industrial spec machines for so long.

My offer to come and help you install your new lathe is wishful thinking on my part, I would if I could but severe commitments at home would prevent me. It would have been good to be there when you unpack it.

The interesting video posted by Gustavus was a bit confusing at first. It seemed to be of his own damaged lathe, but I now see it was not. It looks like the headstock has been damaged after the lathe was dropped or hit by something.

The very sloppy fitting gearbox input shaft is a bit of a worry. The Chinese made Colchester lathe we have at work has exactly the same problem which appeared at an early stage. The problem is that they use plain bushes on this shaft instead of simply using ball race bearings which would last far longer.

All the best.


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## spinningwheels

for a  Heavy industrial engine lathe, It looks a bit light to me.
How are the bearings getting enough oil.
Maby I´m wrong but i don´t think that it wil last for 50 years.
Here is a pic of my 54 year old meuser headstock, and this is just the smalest lathe they build with just 4 kw.


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## hacklordsniper

This is an industrial lathe, but its not a lathe for heavy industrial machining 24/7, for that that is different machines. 

You are half wrong, it would surely not last 50 years in 24/7 of heeavy work, but in my hobby shop it will last enough to be used by next generation.


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## spinningwheels

I should have wrote it in a other way, sorry for that.
But I´m a bit suprised that a lathe that is sold as a industrial lathe , has the internals like that.
Sure for a hobby shop, or as a training lathe , it is more than enough.
Do you also have pics of the screw cutting gearbox?
In a earlyer reply ,  it was says that it is a colchester copy, is the colchester the same internal?
I had a colchester student for a lot of years , but that was indeed a student lathe, it did OK  but not made to do heavy work.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello, unfortunately i dont have internal pictuers of screw cutting gearbox. 

I will try to find some


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## hacklordsniper

No lathe news until now, it will be finished in one month so pictures to follow. But milling machine is ready and being packed and loaded to boat at end of this week.


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## hacklordsniper

Time for some updates... Few weeks ago i got pictures of my 1.5 m way length in factory. I had some concerns about what i did not think, and that is i cant bring inside trough my small door this lathe easily. Also considering my work and i definately tought anyway 1.0 m center distance lathe is much more rigid and better for me. I admit i was carried away by thinking "get the biggest you can" this time, and asked my manufacturer to buy a 1000 mm instead. This wasnt a happy news for them since the machine was allready built, but they did it for me and canceled this order to start building me a new smaller lathe.

Here is the 1500 mm center distance in the works, i wonder where in the world it will be used instead of my home...


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## hacklordsniper

And here is my new smaller lathe in the factory. Due to the Chinese hollidays comming now, it will be finished and shipped in about 20 days.

I requested some special details, a VFD, smaller power motor and to keep all standard headstock gears (usually they insert only 2 gears with VFD, HIGH and LOW and that needs 5.5 kW motor)

I was amazed they even printed a new speed chart for headstock since this is the first time they build this type of headstock, motor and VFD combination. Weiss is one of the best manufacturers i ever worked with!


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## Lathejack

Hello Hacklordsniper.

I'm surprised you changed your mind and decided to go for the smaller machine, but I don't blame you, I think I would have done the same.

I have been considering buying one myself from one of the importers here in the UK, and couldn't decide whether to go for the 1000 or 1500. There is a company called BSA Machine Tools over here who import a 1250mm version, which is an even closer copy of the original Colchester design. So I may take a look at this but I suspect I will settle for the 1000 model, the same type as yours.

The 1500 version is a big machine and a bit daunting for the home workshop I think. The shorter one will be less of a worry to take on, and should be easier to sell on should you ever need to. It must have taken a bit of courage for you to contact the factory and tell them you had changed your mind so late in the build of it, but they seem to have taken it well.

I am impressed with the fact that you have this guy Alex Stone at the factory who is keeping you updated with how the machine is progressing, and who is ensuring the quality is to a good standard.

However, when the lathe arrives I still think it would be a good idea to lift the headstock cover to check all looks ok, and to at least drain and replace the oil in the headstock, gearbox and apron as soon as possible. To simply run it and use it straight out of the crate for a prolonged period of time without checking would be a mistake. I base this on past experience with many of the enclosed oil filled gearboxes on some of these lower priced Chinese machines, and some Taiwanese.

Thanks for the very interesting set of photos.

All the best.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello Lathejack,

even a 1000 mm center distance is more than i will ever need, even my last 700 mm was enough except machine was not enough rigid and i wanted a more simple way to cut threads than to spend 30 minuttes changing gears for every pitch and feed speed. Since my entry hall to my shop is only 2.4 m long, we would have serious problems to move in 2.6 m long lathe trough small, one man door. First order was more made with heart than with brains, and im so glad manufacturer was so kind to help me out. They dont sell many 1500 mm center distance lathes and for future buyer they will need to repaint it (since every reseller wants his own colors) and machine included many custom things (large electrical cabinet, VFD, DRO, QCTP...). So its a question how long they will have to stock this machine to sell it.


i will definately check all that details, i always do it like this, open all covers and clean it. I never run the machine out of the crate. Mr. Alex Stone job is to agree all details with buyers, order machine production and arrange payment and shipping. First time my smaller lathe had some defects (and its also manufactured at other sub contractor of theirs than this large machine) but i can say they were fair since they sent even heavy parts like gearbox with DHL. And even after warranty problem they replaced the milling machine spindle (it was a combination machine) without any questions asked.

But this time it should be ok, since every screw, nut, washer, gear...  and paint is triple checked by this guy. I will have more pictures on 08.10.2014, i will keep you updated guys


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## hacklordsniper

The lathe is finished, also a bandsaw i ordered with it. Unfortunately lathe has some problem with constant cutting speed function so im awaiting from my contact to check it and do final quality control. 

Im waiting pictures in a day or so, but i recieved the bandsaw pictures today (not so interesting)


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## hacklordsniper

Here is some news, some bad, some good.

Lathe is completly finished. Unfortunately on last quality control they determined the 2.2 kW singlephase motor is too weak for this lathe. It can spin the lathe only to 2500 RPM and work ok, at 3000 RPM it does not have enough power anymore. I was faced with decision to change the motor to 3 phase 5.5 kW or keep it as it is (without any additional payment)

However to get 3-phase power i would need to pay a 3-phase fee about 3000 $ + all installations, work, cables...

I recieved some photos of cuts, and you can see the first picture is a face cut, second shows a cut done in one pass, and third one shows a finishing cut. Considering the work im doing, and considering i dont have any need or interest for very heavy cuts and the price of 3 phase installation i accepted it.

So i accepted my max speed is 2500 RPM, maximal speed for heavy cuts is 1800 RPM. The lathe is cleaned and prepared for shipping and hopefully will sail in a day or two. I will send more pictures when they arrive.

I was impressed manufacturer and the test guy clearly notified me about problems they faced, they offered me to upgrade to 3 phase motor and VFD without any charge or fully refund my money if im unhappy with any of offered solutions. From all Chinese manufacturers i worked, Weiss is absolutely amzing and i somuch regret i did not buy a mill from them


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## Lathejack

Hello Hacklordsniper.

The lathe is looking good, I didn't realise it was equipped with Constant Surface Speed as well, very nice.

Your band saw looks quite good, it looks like the 7x12 capacity saw. I have the same type, I've had it for a few years now and they are quite good with only a few irritations, but nothing serious.

As is common the oil filled worm and wheel gearbox on mine contained dirty and contaminated thick pasty oil. 

The blade guides are not quite in line with each other, so they can move the blade slightly out of square the further they are extended.

The back stop guide bar is also badly mounted on some versions, these are the ones with the hydraulic ram that is mounted diagonally. On these the bottom of the ram is fitted where the back stop guide bar was originally intended to be located, which is in a thickened area of the base casting. With the bottom of the ram fitted there they simply drill another small hole to one side through the thinner portion of the base casting and pass the now threaded end of the back stop guide bar through there with a nut at the back.

The end result is a rather sloppy and fragile back stop, so I have never used mine and plan to modify it one day. Originally the hydraulic ram was intended to be fitted vertically with the bottom of the ram mounted to a bracket bolted to the cabinet. This required the coolant tray to be shaped to fit around the ram, so to avoid this a bit of cost cutting has crept in on some of them. Some versions do still have the ram mounted vertically and with the back stop guide bar fitted into its intended position.

Only small faults and it is only a saw bought to take the hard work and drudgery out of workshop activities while I do something more interesting on the lathe or mill, but it was certainly worth the money and I wouldn't be without it.


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## hacklordsniper

thank you for all this new information. I have no experience in band saw-s but i definately know i need one. I somehow managed to get away with angle grinder until now, but im too tired of it. After cutting my material with angle grinder i need 1 hour of machining just to straighten or square the piece. Sometimes i even cut alluminium pieces from 50X50mm stock with a roughing end mill making a mess and wasting material.

I will remeber all of your comments and check them when it arrives. There are 2 models of this size, with and without worm gear. I just took the worm gear one since it was more expensive for 50 $, not knowing any advantages or disadvatages. I still did not recieve pictures of lathe, i asked but i got an answer they are improving paint, parts and so on for it to be perfect for me. Lets hope it will really be like so


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## hacklordsniper

The day has come, lathe completly finished, packed and shipped. Its sailing from Shanghai port on 24.10.2014 towards me. It can be seen they painted some details just now, as pallet and cables have traces of spray paint.

Can someone comment that leveling feet, i did not see such type until now?

Now the waiting...


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## hacklordsniper

More pictures


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## hacklordsniper

More pictures


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## hacklordsniper

Ok, the lathe is here. Time to move it inside (that will be fun) and then i will let you know how did it go


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## Swifty

After watching it being built, it will be interesting to see final pictures and your comments once it is set up.

Paul.


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## hacklordsniper

Swifty said:


> After watching it being built, it will be interesting to see final pictures and your comments once it is set up.
> 
> Paul.




Haha, that is funny. I usually have bad luck, but hoping this time it will be better. Still preparing move in logistics, i hope it will be in until tuesday.


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## hacklordsniper

Ok, its in. It was a 6 hour struggle. The garden trough which we had to pass is wet from rain that is pouring last 2 weeks or so. Altrough we placed heavy wodden construction soon the forklift fell in the soil up to its chasis. Then we got a tractor and spend 2 hours getting the forklift out. After it we called a friend with huge 4x4 bobcat machine that has hydraulic arm. After getting the machine in we managed to move it inside on manual forklift. While we were celebrating the machine is inside we heard a loud sound. The operator forgot to pull hand brake on bob cat and it slowly rolled away trough my garden, trough my fence, across the road to a 3 m deep water drain. Then we called the largest 4x4 tractor to pull him out. Luckily his back is just a cast iron weight and no damage was done.

The move in started at 17:00h and ended little before 1:00 in the night. The lathe looks spectacular at this moment, quality looks amazingly good. This lathe really made it up to my standards. All my remarks have been noted (using a machined spacers for mounting dro scales, not just bunch of washers, and so on). 

Tomorrow i need to cut out the wodden flooring and put alluminium plate and put lathe on place to clean it. So far, quite happy!


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## Swifty

Glad you managed to get it in position, the machinery needed to shift things was getting bigger and bigger. The lathe certainly looks very nice, wish that I had a nice clean workshop like yours.

Paul.


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## Lathejack

It's home at last! Very nice and I'm very envious. 

I see it has a guard to stop lubricant from being flung off the geartrain onto the drive belts, a neat touch.

Does it have an adjustable counter weight at the rear of the headstock spindle to balance it, as some versions do, or is that a spreed sensor I can just see on the end?

I recently enquired about the same type of lathe from Chester Machine Tools here in the UK. The current price is around £7800 with tax. That includes DRO, two chucks, steadies, face plate and coolant plus tools. They have some in stock but I don't no who in China assembles them, and they won't have the same attention to detail that yours has.

Anyway, more photos please when you get the chance, and let us know how it runs and cuts the metal, and how much noise it makes.

I want one!


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## hacklordsniper

Hello,

im still cleaning the machine and its tools, unfortunately the lathe has caused me great sickness. I was cutting out floor to install alluminium floor plate i had to open door and window for smoke to go out, and me geting really sweaty and -2 celsius draft trough the workshop got me the worst cold i had in last few years so im tied to bed currently.

Yes, there is a simple but  clever protection from gears spitting the oil on gears, and yes there is balance weights on the spindle. I cant tell you how it cuts since i have still not came to this step. Until now i only run it about every gear combination for 30 minuttes to test gears, it is very, very silent. 

At first i would like to glorify my contact in Weiss, mr. Alex Stone for taking care of this lathe. For three days im trying to find casting sand, cast iron swarf, loose bolts, broken bolt heads or anything wrong, but there is none! I even checked the gearboxes but they flushed them and put new oil before delivery so there is nothing bad inside. Furthermore they used such quantities of anticorosive agent even if lathe fell in sea it would not rust. There is really nothing to fix or modify, everything works "out of the box".

In process of shipping and moving in there were 2-3 small ( about 10x10 mm) paint damages which i repainted in minute or two (and that is simple since they use RAL colors i can buy them in any color shop). 

However there is some small problems, but nothing about the lathe:

1. They forgot to ship me a 4 jaw invidually centering chuck. It did not fit in machine crate and they forgot to load it in ship separately. However they have apologised and will imeadately send me the chuck by DHL  at their cost (ouch that will be expensive...)
2. They forgot to order and ship me a mounting plate for 6 jaw chuck, it will be shipped with DHL immeadately at their cost, and i will need only pay for plate (because they assumed the 6 jaw chuck does not need adapter plate)

The bandsaw is great, it did not work out of the box, but it seems one fuse during shipping broke to pieces and fell apart. I cant blame manufacturer for that, and it was a 1 $ repair. After replacing the fuse, work excellent.

*Suprisingly, this is a first machine from China that did not need any spare parts or fixing!

*

Here is some pictures i make just now, if you want some specific ones, please say so. Cool thing is that dials and leadscrews are metric, but you can flip it over for imperial view (altrough not needed with DRO). I have also checked headstock with bore camera and they really use splined shafts, not keyway like some cheaper manufacturers. All together, they have not lied me any detail!


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## hacklordsniper

Little update, i have opened the headstock to check how it looks inside. There was absolutely not a grain of cast iron inside, casting sand or anything, its so clean like its washed in some part of production. I replaced all oils with high quality Shell Omala, ISO 100. All gears and splined shafts look like excellent quality, and everything looks so massive it will surely last a lifetime. I did not reuse old gasket as it did not look like something worth saving, instead i used Loctite quick gasket, it always worked for me. 

The only thing i noticed the original oil was quite thin and seemed like not a high quality oil. But on the other hand even the manual says to break in the lathe and change oil, so why put in there some expensive oil that will be drained anyway or it could be some special oil for first filling.

The headstock is amazingly cleverly engineered, except the drain hole which is on the worst place. I will turn a M16X1.5 adapter to fit a 1/4 BSP ball valve there, so future drains will be easier. I took pictures and will post them. After placing the new oil, lathe is even more silent and now sounds like a swiss watch. I lost one plug screw somehow, and i made a new fine thread screw in less than 5 minuttes (including cutting it from stock on band saw), its such a joy to have this gearbox, any thread or feed takes just few seconds to set up.


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## Swifty

I use hydraulic oil in the headstock and apron of my lathe, it's rated at ISO 46 and it's fairly thin. You will find that a lot of people use this oil. Perhaps this is the type of oil that was originally in your lathe.

Paul.


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## hacklordsniper

Ok, so here is the picture of headstock gears. 

Furthermore there is pictures of tailstock DRO i installed today. I used a display i found on ebay and igaging scale. You will notice i modified the scale to be screwed to tailstock from inside, and cut M3 threads in scale head, drilled the casing trough so i can assemble scale from outside (before the screws holding the case were screwed from bottom). Its nicer and simpler then using brackets. 

And thankfully to 3D printer and ABS i had a quill adapter ready in 1 hour.


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## Lathejack

Hello Hacklordsniper.

Thanks for the photos, the lathe looks great and I am oozing with envy. A nice sturdy, heavily built and well made machine. Its Colchester heritage is obvious.

It's also good to see the proper efforts some Chinese manufacturers make to clean out gearbox castings before assembly, as they usually always have done on their industrial rated lathes. A far cry from the staggeringly appalling new Warco 1330 that I bought.

Your bandsaw is just about identical to mine. As I mentioned a couple of months ago, the ones with a diagonally mounted hydraulic ram have a rather badly mounted backstop guide bar. The guide bar was intended to be mounted in the place that they have put the bottom of the ram.

I plan to extend the ram mounting to include the backstop guide bar. So that lengths of steal can be quickly pushed up to the backstop without the risk of bending or loosening the guide bar, or possibly breaking the thinner casting through which it is currently fitted, like yours.

I am sure you will, but it is also worth removing the worm and wheel gearbox cover to check the cleanliness of the internals and the lubricant. Mine was pretty bad and was thoroughly cleaned and refilled with EP90 gear oil.

I also extended the slot in the casting of the adjustable blade guide, the longer one furthest away from the motor. This was so the distance between the blade guides could be reduced when cutting smaller bar. Some versions of these saws do have a longer slot allowing closer adjustment.

Although the blade on my saw is pulled slightly off square when the guide is moved through its full travel, it doesn't appear to cause much of a problem on the cut metal. I also have the smaller version of this bandsaw which does the same, but I used it for years before I finally checked and noticed it.

As Swifty says, hydraulic oil is widely used in lathe headstocks, and without problems. I did however, once try hydraulic oil in my lathes headstock but then quickly removed it when I noticed it just frothed up excessively almost instantly. It was ISO 68 I used though, so it may have not been the most suitable grade. I refilled with light gear oil of 75-80 weight which has worked fine.

All the best.


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## hacklordsniper

Thank you for all nice comments. The blade guide can surely be extended and the original one has enough leftover to be milled, but wondering will it help? I allready cut 10 mm stock on the bandsaw and i had no problems.

I drained the oil from worm gear and checked it now. I didnt think about it before because its not in such priority list like lathe. There was nothing bad in there, but good thing to check. Not sure howmuch oil to refill now?


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## hacklordsniper

Semms there is a problem to be found sometimes. The manufacturer made a mistake and mounted wrong QCTP to my machine, it is too small for swing of my lathe. So im packing the toolpost and 14 tool holders and sending them back to China, and they will send me a new larger QCTP. Guess no turning will be done for next month or so...


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## Lathejack

Hello. 

Your saw gearbox seems quite clean. Mine contained a foul thick paste like goo with traces of sand. Mine also had a badly formed washer with an oversize centre  hole fitted under the bolt that holds on the bronze worm wheel.

The reason I extended the adjusting slot in the blade guide bracket was because bringing the two blade roller guides as close together as possible holds the blade more rigidly. This keeps the blade cutting squarer for longer as it wears, particularly on thick flat bar gripped vertically in the vice, as well as lengths of angle.

It's a shame about your lathe toolpost, I would be very impatient to do a bit of machining as soon as possible. I was hoping to see maybe a video of the lathe running soon.


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## spinningwheels

What toolpost do you have, is it a multifix clone,
And what type.


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## hacklordsniper

The lathe came with TOOE5 and proper one is TOOB2.

Yes it is a multifix clone. I just packed all the holders and toolpost, it will be quite an expensive shipping package. Manufacturer was honest and said if returning this toolposts will be too high charge for us, to leave them as "free spares". But i dont want to keep something i did not pay for, so i will send them in monday.


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## DJP

It's not uncommon to have shipping costs much higher than the value of the part. The manufacturer's mistake will be fixed and he is offering you the old parts as compensation for the inconvenience. 

It's the new world of low cost parts and high cost shipping. I would keep the parts as spares even if only a portion of them will fit the larger holder.

With your new machines you can make a taller holder.... you have options and the manufacturer is offering you his goodwill.


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## hacklordsniper

Hello,

thank you for nice comments. I shipped the wrong QCTP and holders back, the package was little more than 20 kg. They are worth about 650 $ (in China) so i guess the price of shipping is still small compared to value


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