# Edwards Radial 5 Build



## LADmachining

Happy New Year everyone!

Following a request from another member, I have uploaded some photos of my Edwards 5 cylinder radial engine that has been an on-going project for a few years now.

Construction commenced in March 2004. Here is the starting point....







This was about £60 ($120 at the time) worth of material. I expect the material cost would have doubled in recent years.. 

I didn't proceed with the project in any particular order - just completed what I had the tooling for, and what would fit on the machines I had at the time.






4 x link rods completed.






Cutting the recess in the master rod. This pushed my Sherline mill to the limit for available space. The roatry table is mounted horizontally on the table, whilst the spindle is rotated through 90 degrees and is parallel to the table surface. Even with a long series end-mill, it was only just long enough, and had to be used with the minimum of the plain shank in the collet. I was glas when this part was finished!






MK1 version of the oil pump. After building it, I found some errors in the plans, which meant that the passages in the main body of the pump did not line up with the plunger. Bob Seigler corrected the drawings after I sent him an email querying the problem, and a new pump body was made.






Piston blanks, awaiting milling of the conrod clearance slot in the underside, and drilling/reaming of the gudgeon pin hole.






Facing off the mounting face of the inlet manifold block, after completion of milling operations.






Here is an action shot of a process that probably had the longest set-up time of all - about 3 months! I could not work out a simple way of cutting the complicated shape of the rocker arms with the equipment I had, so I set about converting my SHerline mill to CNC. That should do it.... ;D First part of the process is to cut out a rocker blank from a piece of 1/4" ali plate to the side profile shown in the drawings. This blank is then mounted in the milling vice, and the profiling work continues, forming the rounded ends of the rocker.






A before and after shot, showing the first stage blank in the background. Still a little more work to do before the part is completed - drilling/tapping for tappet adjuster and rocker tip thrust pad.






Oil sump completed - pretty self-explanatory! 






By this time, I had moved to a new house and had a much bigger workshop - this meant bigge rmachines! Here is the blank for the crankcase about to undergo machining.






Faced to length, then internal recess bored. Just completed boring for main bearing. Face of the case and bearing recess were turned at the same setting, so can be relied on being in exact alignment - this allows use of the face for future setups, knowing it will allow any subsequent machinging to be in line with the crankshaft/main bearings.






The case was removed from the chuck, and a piece of scrap bar turned to be a good fit in the main bearing recess turned above. The case was then mounted on this mandrel. Here, the gearcase end of the case is being turned so that the crankcase ends up the correct width, then the gearcase mounting recess is formed. I just worked to the plan dimensions, the gearcase ID will be turned to a good fit on this step.






Having completed all lathe operations, the part is moved to the mill, where it is clamped to the table and centred under the spindle. Various holes are then drilled and tapped by co-ordinate drilling.






Case now mounted on the rotary table (also converted to CNC) for milling of the cylinder mounting flats.

More to follow soon. In the meantime, here is a link to the Photobucket album where there are quite a few more photos.

http://s488.photobucket.com/albums/rr242/LADmachining/Edwards%20Radial%205%20Work%20In%20Progress/

Regards,

Anthony


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## NickG

Anthony, very impressive stuff. That sherline is coping well. It was my first milling machine. Wish I had kept it - was very accurate, but at the time it had to give way for a larger one.

Nick


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## GailInNM

Very nice Anthony.
Great way to start the New Year with a long term Work In Progress.
Nice set of photos on your Photo Bucket site. Nice to see both the progress of the engine as well as the progress on your shop equipment.
Gail in NM


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## vlmarshall

Awesome stuff. I really like seeing the unusual ways some machines are put to work...like that Sherline mill of yours. :bow:


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## gmac

Anthony;
Thanks for taking the time to post the build. Much appreciated by someone who "hasn't been there, hasn't done that..."
Cheers
Garry


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## LADmachining

Thanks for the kind words everyone. Here are some more photos...

*Cylinder Heads*

These parts involve probably the longest total build time of all the parts on the engine. A fixture was used which allowed any set-ups to be re-used for all of the heads in turn. This worked out well...

Firstly, the fixture was made from an offcut of 1/4" ali plate. It was mounted on the lathe and a spigot formed which was a good fit on the circular recess that will be formed on the underside of each head. The holes for the head securing screws were laid out by co-ordinate drilling, then tapped. Finally, the edges of the plate were squared with an end mill to provide to reference faces relative to the mounting holes. Two pins were made which were a good fit in the cylinder head screw holes, they were threaded one end to screw into the fixture plate, then cut a slot in the other end so they could be tightened with a screwdriver.






Another view of the fixture plate can be seen later....






Turning of the heads proper can now begin. Each blank was faced off, then the head recess formed by opening out with progressively bigger end mills. The top slide is swivelled round and a short boring bar is used to cut the angled face of the coombustion chamber. The cylindrical recess in which the cylinder liner seats is then cut to be a good fit on the head fixture spigot. Each had to be given this treatment in turn, which was a bit long winded with all the tool changes.






Cutting the combustion chamber.






Once the head mounting holes are drilled and counterbored, a holding fixture is made to enable the top of the head to be faced to bring the blank to the correct thickness.






The blank heads are now mounted on an angle plate, using the fixture plate made earlier. 






Angled cuts are taken to form the recess for the rocker arm bracket.






A 1/4" end mill, and a quick bit of g-code, cuts a .500" counterbore in each head by CNC. The largest end-mill the Sherline can use is 10mm (.400" approx) - although I have since made a 1/2" end mill holder.






Mounting faces for the intake and exhaust manifolds are cut.






Transferring the fixture back to an angle plate, we are now set-up for the most time consuming task of making the heads - cutting the fins! Each fin takes about 7 passes - 6 cuts of .5mm, then a final pass of .35mm to give a total depth of 1/4" (as you can tell, I am quite happy working in both units, even though I was only ever taught metric at school).






And this is about 45 minutes later..... About 1hr 10m to cut each head.






Here are some before and after shots.






Five completed heads - a sixth was made as a spare in case of 'accidents'.






This was the state of the mill after the operations were completed. The bare fixture plate can be seen on the angle plate.

That's all for now - but more will follow...! ;D

Anthony


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## Powder keg

I thought I was the only one to include chips in my pictures LOL Looking good!!! Where did you get the plans?


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## LADmachining

The plans can be downloaded FOC when you join the Yahoo group "R&R Engines" (radial and round).

The designer, Forrest Edwards, gave permission for his plans to be CADed and distributed freely. The CAD work was done by Robert Seigler - might be worth approaching him to see if the plans could be uploaded on this site??

Anthony


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## sourdoughsmitty

HI Anthony,
WOW!!!!!!!! nice do so far :bow: :bow: since I have been away from this sort of thing for 30 nyrs or so I was a bit confused in a few sheets of the drawings the first is how to lay out the final shape of the crankcase , I notice your heads must take a seaprate valve guide my drwgs show an extension above the head w/no separation making it to look like it was machined as one piece. there are afew other areas that seemingly do not have all the dims. or maybe I have forgotten how to interpret them ??? : :big:. I notice also quite a few holes in the crankcase flats that have no explanation dim or otherwise well gotta go study these some more thanx again smitty


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## rake60

Anthony,

I joined that *R_and_R_engines* group tonight to get a look at those plans.
I am a registered member of just about every Yahoo Group concerned with
model engine machining and didn't really need another distraction, but that
*IS* a great group. Thanks for pointing it out!

After looking over those prints I have to say that project is well beyond my 
personal home hobby skills. Seeing your progress to date, I am just as sure that
it is well within your skills. It has just made me more anxious to follow this thread
as it progresses. Please keep us updated as you go!

Beautiful documentation of the build.
Thanks for taking us along with it.

Rick


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## Seanol

Anthony,
Thanks for posting your work. It looks awesome! While above my skill level currently you make it seem like it is attainable eventually.

Looking forward to more when you have time,

Sean


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## SBWHART

Great work Antony :bow: :bow:

realy enjoyed following your build story board.

Thanks for showing

Stew


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## kvom

I also signed up on the group and looked at the plans. Having just made the little 5-cylinder air-operated radial, I can understand most of what this is about. I might consider this for a build in the future once my skill level improves. Please continue to post your progress.


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## LADmachining

Hi kvom,

I have followed the build of your Liney Halo engine - I think the skill level on that would be about the same as the Edwards, if not higher, due to the small size of the parts involved.

The only 'extras' on this engine compared to yours, which can up the required skill level, are the fits for the ball bearings in the crankcase and on the crankshaft, boring and fitting the gears, and producing piston rings.

I feel my skill level has increased *by* tackling the project. It hasn't been easy, by any means, but I have learnt and put to use a whole new set of skills. Coming up with some of the set-ups certainly got the grey matter working - looking back through the photos I have, I think it may have been mis-firing at some points! Some set-ups look decidedly dubious...

Anthony


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## deere_x475guy

Hi Lad, I am really looking forward to following your build. I have had the plans for this project since 2007 and have the cam almost done...!!! 

Oh and I still haven't finished the webster...although it is much closer to completion...


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## NickG

Wow, that is really nice work. More work in those heads than most of my engines!

Nick


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## steze48

LADmachining said:


> Hi kvom,
> 
> I have followed the build of your Liney Halo engine - I think the skill level on that would be about the same as the Edwards, if not higher, due to the small size of the parts involved.
> 
> The only 'extras' on this engine compared to yours, which can up the required skill level, are the fits for the ball bearings in the crankcase and on the crankshaft, boring and fitting the gears, and producing piston rings.
> 
> I feel my skill level has increased *by* tackling the project. It hasn't been easy, by any means, but I have learnt and put to use a whole new set of skills. Coming up with some of the set-ups certainly got the grey matter working - looking back through the photos I have, I think it may have been mis-firing at some points! Some set-ups look decidedly dubious...
> 
> Anthony



Co did you ever finish this engine?
Would like to see the finished engine...
I am gathering parts to build one and may buy the Harbor Freight 2 speed mini mil as it's on sale right now...
Steve


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## xjs

Anthony --

I've been reading this and other threads with great interest since I'm just starting on an Edwards radial 5 of my own.  Your work on your project looked first-rate, and I'm most curious to learn if you took it all the way.  I'm especially interested in how you might have solved the challenge of grinding the cams -- I don't have any cnc gear and am wondering if I may have to remedy that. Anyway, I'd love hear what you're working on now.  I really enjoyed your posts on this thread so far...


Best,


Michael


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all Forest Edwards Radial enthusiasts.
I have been poking around this site for a long time and have bitten the bullet and joined.
I have been building an Edwards radial for about two years and have completed most major parts except the heads. They are next.
The cam was not the hassle I thought it would be and I would be happy to communicate with you on this (and anything else) Michael.
Once I become more familiar with the site I could add some photos if anyone is interested. (most components and machining operation have been photographed)

Cheers all - Brian in South Australia:fan:


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## ozzie46

Welcome Brian.  By all means post photos. We are photo junkies here.

   I am very interested in how you did the cam as I plan on making this engine also.


 Ron


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## xjs

Hi Brian --

Great to hear from you, and especially your reassurance on the cam issue. Been giving me nightmares, that...visions of finishing this project but with all the valves just sitting there, fast asleep...

You're way ahead of me it seems, I've just been at this project for a couple of months...here's the story so far:





The oil pump assembly is also done, and I hope to be nibbling away at the cam cover this weekend, as long as some proper-sized slitting saws arrive in time. I've also been taking pics fairly frequently, and I'll try to organize a little w-i-p series over the next few days. Would love to see yours too.

Also can't wait to hear of your experience with the cam issue. A lot of potential discussion points come to mind, actually.

All best...

Michael T


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael,Ron and others.
Michael I managed to catch the image of your crankcase and manifold.
For some reason the image is now gone - removed but looked like great work.
I hope this goes OK as I am still learning my way around this site and I don't have a handy 10 year old to help me.
Anyhow this is how I attacked the cam.
1. Machined the blank as per plan (60 year old Hercus 9" lathe - Aussie made Southbend clone) from 4340 steel (tough stuff).
2. Removed chuck from lathe and mounted on 6" rotary table.
3. Mount rotary table on mill and check with dial gauge to make sure there is no run out over 360deg. and then centre in the mill so that measurements can be taken on a radius.
4. Using a 5/8" X 3/16" woodruff key cutter I removed the required amount of material from the start and finish points of the cam lobes as per plan.
5. The cam lobes were then cut a degree at a time as per the chart increasing the lift when cutting up the lobe and decreasing going down the other side of the lobe. This may sound tedious but only a tiny amount of material is removed at a time and it is not as bad as it might seem.
6. When completed you have came lobes consisting of tiny serrations. To remove and polish out the serrations I used 600 wet and dry carborundum paper wrapped around a ground steel rule lubricated with kerosine and finish polished with 1200 paper. Because the difference from one serration to the other is so small this does not take long at all.
I hope this makes some sort of sense and I will now have a go at uploading some images which I hope makes things a bit clearer.
Michael you mentioned you were working on the cam cover and are waiting for some slitting saws. Are they for cutting the slots for the cam followers?
For this task I made a simple fly cutter which worked a treat. If interested let me know and I will photograph it.
Cheers all. :wall:


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## ozzie46

Thanks Brian, Have it saved in my files for future reference.

 Ron


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## steze48

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Hi Michael and all Forest Edwards Radial enthusiasts.
> I have been poking around this site for a long time and have bitten the bullet and joined.
> I have been building an Edwards radial for about two years and have completed most major parts except the heads. They are next.
> The cam was not the hassle I thought it would be and I would be happy to communicate with you on this (and anything else) Michael.
> Once I become more familiar with the site I could add some photos if anyone is interested. (most components and machining operation have been photographed)
> 
> Cheers all - Brian in South Australia:fan:



Hello Brian...
I just finished the crankcase and working on the cam...
Oli pump is finished...Waiting on a 1/8" keyway cutter to finish up the cear case...
Please post pictures for all to see please...

Steve


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## xjs

Aloha Fans of Edwardian Radials --

-- and Brian, many thanks for the pics and narrative of your cam-carving. Most elegant and helpful. Now my dread has been replaced by hopeful anticipation.

Yes, the slitting saw I mentioned was for the cam-cavities in the cover, but your fly-cutter idea makes a lot of sense. Clearly I have a lot to learn. Neither the slitting saw nor your e-mail arrived before Friday evening, though, so I started hacking away instead at the cylinder barrels as my weekend project.

Sorry the pic I posted vanished...apparently my rummaging-around in the Photobucket yesterday afternoon upset something. This whole e-thing has me flummoxed most of the time. Let's try it again:









....and, if this is working so far, here are a couple of oil pump pics...one in pieces, one assembled:














Before anyone asks...the third capscrew on the front of the pump conceals a broken tap.  Shameless, I know.  And asymetrical.  I'll probably go back and make a new pump body.  But not till I've made that cam.

Michael T


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day again Michael, Steve, Ron and all,
I now realize I should have joined HMEM long ago - what a great way to communicate and exchange ideas with people involved in the same or similar projects.   
Great stuff Michael and amazing you have done all of that in a couple of months.You are obviously much more experienced than me and can work much faster. This is actually my first ever engine and I spend more time thinking about how to do something than actually doing it. It has also been a major incentive in purchasing much more equipment to do the tasks. No doubt they will be also put to good use in future projects.
I initially looked into purchasing a key way cutter to do the cam follower slots but could not find one the right size hence the reason for making the fly cutter.
The 1/8" square HSS steel bit is adjustable in the milled slot and clamped in place with the cap. Also a picture of the engine so far.
I have currently been working on the valve rockers (no CNC) and they are probably the fussiest part to make so far and are finished apart from machining the top angles (photo's later).
Michael in the background of one of your photo's is what appears to be a brass V4 or twin engine. What is it?
Cheers all- Brian in a currently hot and humid South Australia*beer*


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## metalmad

Hi Brian
I too have the Edwards plan set but have not done anything with it.
I'm told there was a spark ignition version as well, but Ive never seen one.
Why don't you start a build thread on your Engine, id love to see it 
Hi Anthony
Looking very nice, very nice indeed.
Pete


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## xjs

Beautiful pictures, Brian.  Let me join the chorus clamoring for you to start a build thread!  And if this is your first engine I'm really curious to see your second and third...a Merlin V-12?  A Saturn V booster?

The engine you asked about is a V-4 "wobbler", designed for marine use by a Scandinavian chap, Gustaffson I think.  It's designed in metric but I scaled it up a bit by making a millimeter count for a sixteenth.  Satisfying project, but not too practical for an airplane, which is what I'm hoping to do with the Edwards radial.  With apologies for including a steam engine in a radial IC thread, here's a pic:






Back to the Edwards:  I haven't made any of the crankshaft gear yet and I've been wondering about the link and main rods...is the bare aluminium really up to the task of being the bearing surface, or does anyone else think that maybe a bronze insert at each end might be a good idea?

I'm also curious to know if anyone has had any luck with finding or developing a spark ignition mod for this engine, as Pete mentioned.  I know that Mr. Edwards himself made a few sparked models, but I don't know if he ever released the design (as he did so generously with the engine itself!).

Michael


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## Brian-in-Oz

That's a real neat looking engine Michael - looks like something that could power a "Time Machine" in a 1940's sci-fi movie and no a Merlin or SaturnV
booster are not in my plans but did consider a jet turbine.
I have shelved that idea for now as I would probably burn down the workshop.
Now back to the Edwards, I must admit that it had crossed my mind as to whether bronze bushes may be better than the piston pins and big ends running on the aluminium but apparently Forests' engines had a good reputation for reliability and one would think any issues would have shown up in the 30 odd engines he manufactured.
I believe that that the British twin Triumph Tiger 100 motorcycles of about the 1960's era ran their aluminium alloy conrods direct to the crankshaft without using any slippers or bearing rollers so it may not be all bad.
Does anyone out there have any thoughts on this?
Michael, in the Edwards parts list an OS piston pin part#10893 is listed but this is discontinued and no longer available. I am using an OS piston pin part#44606000 available from Omni Models in Champaign Ill.
This is the same length with teflon end caps and is .5mm - 20thou. smaller in diameter. I don't think this will have any impact.
How does one start a build thread and what format do you think it take?
I have attached some photo's of the piston pin and master rod with conrods attached and pistons just sittin there. ( seems I am already on the way to a build thread)
Cheers - Brian*discussion*


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## steze48

xjs said:


> Aloha Fans of Edwardian Radials --
> 
> -- and Brian, many thanks for the pics and narrative of your cam-carving. Most elegant and helpful. Now my dread has been replaced by hopeful anticipation.
> 
> Yes, the slitting saw I mentioned was for the cam-cavities in the cover, but your fly-cutter idea makes a lot of sense. Clearly I have a lot to learn. Neither the slitting saw nor your e-mail arrived before Friday evening, though, so I started hacking away instead at the cylinder barrels as my weekend project.
> 
> Sorry the pic I posted vanished...apparently my rummaging-around in the Photobucket yesterday afternoon upset something. This whole e-thing has me flummoxed most of the time. Let's try it again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....and, if this is working so far, here are a couple of oil pump pics...one in pieces, one assembled:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before anyone asks...the third capscrew on the front of the pump conceals a broken tap.  Shameless, I know.  And asymetrical.  I'll probably go back and make a new pump body.  But not till I've made that cam.
> 
> Michael T



That is very nice work Michael!
I tried out my pump yesterday to see if it would pump with some caster oil and it did like a charm!
Just wish I had a decent camera to take pictures with...
I have a piece of 4140 on the lathe right now and turning down for the cam.
So far I have the crankcase finished with exception of drilling and taping for the cylinder screws...Oil pump is finished...cam housing is bored to the right demensions and waiting on the keyway cutter to arrive.
I ordered a piece 3/4" x 2" x 12" of 4340 for the crank.
I attempted to make a 3 piece crank from some pre-hardened 4140 but it is in the scrap pile now...

Steve


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## steze48

Brian-in-Oz said:


> G'day again Michael, Steve, Ron and all,
> I now realize I should have joined HMEM long ago - what a great way to communicate and exchange ideas with people involved in the same or similar projects.
> Great stuff Michael and amazing you have done all of that in a couple of months.You are obviously much more experienced than me and can work much faster. This is actually my first ever engine and I spend more time thinking about how to do something than actually doing it. It has also been a major incentive in purchasing much more equipment to do the tasks. No doubt they will be also put to good use in future projects.
> I initially looked into purchasing a key way cutter to do the cam follower slots but could not find one the right size hence the reason for making the fly cutter.
> The 1/8" square HSS steel bit is adjustable in the milled slot and clamped in place with the cap. Also a picture of the engine so far.
> I have currently been working on the valve rockers (no CNC) and they are probably the fussiest part to make so far and are finished apart from machining the top angles (photo's later).
> Michael in the background of one of your photo's is what appears to be a brass V4 or twin engine. What is it?
> Cheers all- Brian in a currently hot and humid South Australia*beer*



Excellent work Brian! Beautiful!!!th_wav


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## steze48

FYI...
The rod needle bearing JH57-oh-40 was replaced with  SCH57 from Boca Bearing and states .312 ID...
It is not! It is 8MM.
A 5/16" dowel pin fits too loosely into the bearing.
I had some 8MM stainless rod left over from another project and it fits perfectly.

Steve


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Steve and all,
Steve your comments about the fit of a 5/16" dowel pin into the BHA57 bearing had me rushing for my bearing also purchased from Boca and try a 5/16" dowel pin into it and indeed it does feel a bit of a loose fit although when the pin and bearing are perfectly parallel there is little or no discernable "slop".
I have made my crankshaft but so far not bothered with the crank pin or fitting the bearing to the master rod as I do not have a press to fit it (next purchase an arbor press).
The bearing I have is an IKO brand BHA57.
Being the worry wart I am I looked up IKO's own specifications for this bearing and they do indeed list a shaft size of 5/16" for it so no error from Boca.
One particular section in the specs. got my attention and this is it pasted.
2 In the case of Shell Type Needle Roller Bearings,
the correct dimensional accuracy is achieved only
after the bearings are press-fitted into the specified
housing bore. 
I guess sometimes we just have to decide whether or not to trust these boffins in the design room with their engineering degrees even though most wouldn't know which end to hold a spanner.
Based on this information I think I will still use a 5/16" pin.
What do think you will do and has anyone else had some experience with this? Now I am off to finish the valve rockers.
Picture of crankshaft minus crankpin.
Cheers Brian   :rant:


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## xjs

Brian and Steve, thanks so much for the pointers on pins and bearings.  I'm sure you've saved me no end of gnashing, not to mention precious time.  And your thoughts on the link rod bearing surfaces, Brian, are much appreciated.  I had no idea that the rods on the old Triumphs "went commando" and, you're right, it seems almost heretical to question the judgment of Mr. Edwards.

And may I say again (then I promise to stop gushing) how useful, even inspirational, I'm finding the photographs of your work.  Something to aspire to.  (The photography, as well as the superb craftsmanship).

I was struck by something you said a couple of posts back, about how you spend more time thinking about doing than actually doing.  I think that's a big part of the attraction of this business for me.  Getting lost in a good drawing, trying to figure out the setups and challenges (and pitfalls) ahead of time, and creating parts in my head is something I can carry around with me all the time, and adds tremendously to the pleasure gotten from the precious few hours I actually get to spend in the shop.

And, of course, head-time produces much less wear and tear on the machinery.

Glad you liked  my little adventure in steampunk, the wobbling V-4.  Bending those copper pipes was a pain, but satisfying, and I guess some sort of rehearsal for the intake tubes of the Edwards.

As it turned out there was infuriatingly little time available for the shop this weekend, though there are now five little rough-bored and drilled pieces of aluminium lurking on the bench that I hope will grow up to be nice shiny cylinder barrels in another few days.  

Then, by golly, I'm going to make me one of them fly-cutters.  

Just because.

Michael


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## xjs

By the way, Brian, the pic of your crankshaft suggests to me that a toolpost grinder has to be in my future...yes?   no?

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Thank you for the appreciative remarks Michael, it's nice as some of our friends come around and just say what are you doing that for and what are you going to do with it. I tell them it keeps the brain active and may stave off the onset of "Old Timers Disease". Sometimes I wonder though when I look at some of the jigs I made a while back and can't figure out what they were for. Oh well!
I take the photo's in one of those collapsable soft boxes - no harsh flash.
Yes! you were correct about a tool post grinder being used on the crankshaft.
It was particularly useful to remove metal from the end of the crankshaft and leave the raised 10 thou. clearance boss. I just turned the end of a piece 1/2" ground stainless steel shaft to fit through the crankpin hole, threaded it and clamped up tight with a machined washer and nut and mounted in the lathe chuck. Then using a cup stone on the tool post grinder finished to required dimension.
I also used the grinder to do the half circles on the counter weight - first roughly removed metal with a hacksaw and bench grinder and then ground one side of the counter weight on a surface grinder. The next part was to turn a shaft with a thin boss the diameter of the half circle and soft solder it to the counter weight. It was then possible to mount in the lathe chuck and finish grind by oscillating the chuck through 180deg. by hand using a drive belt - repeat for other side then surface grind both flat sides to dimension.
If you can't follow my description and want photo's let me know.
I purchased the grinder as a kit of unfinished castings and metal stock from Hemingway Kits in the UK - exceptional service and only took an unbelievable three days to arrive.
The end result is a very nice grinder and quite easy to machine - only thing is it came with a 240v motor where you guys are 120v but they may well also supply with a 120v motor.
The photo with sparks is grinding a cam follower.
And YIPPEE! - today I finished the valve rockers - still need a little hand work knocking off the sharp edges but generally I am pleased with them.
Very tedious work though particularly the way I did them - no CNC.
Cheers -  Brian  woohoo1


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## steze48

Brian-in-Oz said:


> G'day Steve and all,
> Steve your comments about the fit of a 5/16" dowel pin into the BHA57 bearing had me rushing for my bearing also purchased from Boca and try a 5/16" dowel pin into it and indeed it does feel a bit of a loose fit although when the pin and bearing are perfectly parallel there is little or no discernable "slop".
> I have made my crankshaft but so far not bothered with the crank pin or fitting the bearing to the master rod as I do not have a press to fit it (next purchase an arbor press).
> The bearing I have is an IKO brand BHA57.
> Being the worry wart I am I looked up IKO's own specifications for this bearing and they do indeed list a shaft size of 5/16" for it so no error from Boca.
> One particular section in the specs. got my attention and this is it pasted.
> 2 In the case of Shell Type Needle Roller Bearings,
> the correct dimensional accuracy is achieved only
> after the bearings are press-fitted into the specified
> housing bore.
> I guess sometimes we just have to decide whether or not to trust these boffins in the design room with their engineering degrees even though most wouldn't know which end to hold a spanner.
> Based on this information I think I will still use a 5/16" pin.
> What do think you will do and has anyone else had some experience with this? Now I am off to finish the valve rockers.
> Picture of crankshaft minus crankpin.
> Cheers Brian   :rant:



Brian...
I found my bearing on ebay and was listed as a IKO BHA57...
I received a no name bearing evidently made in China!
It is an SCH 57 and the 5/16" dowel pin is too loose in the bearings...
I may have to buy another bearing directly from Boca...
8MM shaft has just a slight amount of movement and not without wobbling it.
The 5/16" pin has at least .004" of movement.
Finished the rear cover today but messed up on the 2-56 screw holes! :fan:
Drilled for the tap too large...:wall:
SO... I ordered some 4-40 button head screws 1/4" long...
Went ahead and taped for 4-40.

Steve


----------



## steze48

Brian-in-Oz said:


> G'day Steve and all,
> Steve your comments about the fit of a 5/16" dowel pin into the BHA57 bearing had me rushing for my bearing also purchased from Boca and try a 5/16" dowel pin into it and indeed it does feel a bit of a loose fit although when the pin and bearing are perfectly parallel there is little or no discernable "slop".
> I have made my crankshaft but so far not bothered with the crank pin or fitting the bearing to the master rod as I do not have a press to fit it (next purchase an arbor press).
> The bearing I have is an IKO brand BHA57.
> Being the worry wart I am I looked up IKO's own specifications for this bearing and they do indeed list a shaft size of 5/16" for it so no error from Boca.
> One particular section in the specs. got my attention and this is it pasted.
> 2 In the case of Shell Type Needle Roller Bearings,
> the correct dimensional accuracy is achieved only
> after the bearings are press-fitted into the specified
> housing bore.
> I guess sometimes we just have to decide whether or not to trust these boffins in the design room with their engineering degrees even though most wouldn't know which end to hold a spanner.
> Based on this information I think I will still use a 5/16" pin.
> What do think you will do and has anyone else had some experience with this? Now I am off to finish the valve rockers.
> Picture of crankshaft minus crankpin.
> Cheers Brian   :rant:



Very nice Brian!!!Thm:Thm:Thm:Thm:


----------



## steze48

Well thought I would post a picture of my progress...
Cheap-O cameraand on dial-up::rant:
Crank case and rear cover are finished (with exception of taping for the 4-40 cylinder screws) along with the oil pump.
Cam housing, Waiting on the keyway cutter to arrive.
Once I cut for the lifters I will add the taper.
Working with a 7X10 mini HF lathe and attached a 3" rotary table to the cross slide.
Also have the simple milling attachment made from a 3" angle block and 1-1/2" milling vice.;D
An X2 is on my wish list!

Steve


----------



## xjs

Great stuff Steve! And all on a 7" lathe too!! (I needed that kick in the pants since seeing the pic of Brian's luvly 60-year old machine, an Aussie clone of a South Bend nine-incher, I think he said. I've spent a couple of years trying to domesticate a Chinese 9x20 and was coming down with Ironmongery Envy. You fixed that nicely!)

Thanks for the tips on piston pins, Brian...I've gone ahead and ordered a handful from Omni...though I may have to save a few more boxtops before going for the toolpost grinder. That's a great-looking setup. 

Michael


----------



## xjs

Brian, I took a look at the Hemingway site and that is a fine-looking grinder, better than anything I've seen elsewhere. I've got a query in to them about the 120 v. motor -- or simply the option of supplying it without a motor at all.

One question about your (again, most excellent) recipe for grinding the Edwards crankshaft...when you refer to surface grinding at verious points, is this something you were able to accomplish with the Hemingway's attachment, or are you in fact guilty of possession of a stand-alone surface-grinder?

And a bonus surprise on the Hemingway site -- they offer a Hall-effect package which, at first glance, seems as though it might be the answer to running this engine on sparks rather than glows, as discussed earlier.

Thanks again for all your help and illumination...

Michael


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Ditto to Michaels remarks - Steve it is absolutely amazing what you are achieving with that little lathe and no mill. When you have finished I think you should approach HF for an endorsement (for financial gain of course) so that they can show just what can be done with their 7" X 10".
I will be having a two or three break from the work shop as we are travelling to the east coast to catch up with our daughter, son in law and grandkids for Easter (1000 mile drive). This will give me some think time before tackling those heads.
I think I will make a list of the things I have yet to make and post it so that maybe I can get some tips from those that have.

Cheers - Brian  :hDe:


----------



## steze48

Brian-in-Oz said:


> G'day Steve and all,
> Steve your comments about the fit of a 5/16" dowel pin into the BHA57 bearing had me rushing for my bearing also purchased from Boca and try a 5/16" dowel pin into it and indeed it does feel a bit of a loose fit although when the pin and bearing are perfectly parallel there is little or no discernable "slop".
> I have made my crankshaft but so far not bothered with the crank pin or fitting the bearing to the master rod as I do not have a press to fit it (next purchase an arbor press).
> The bearing I have is an IKO brand BHA57.
> Being the worry wart I am I looked up IKO's own specifications for this bearing and they do indeed list a shaft size of 5/16" for it so no error from Boca.
> One particular section in the specs. got my attention and this is it pasted.
> 2 In the case of Shell Type Needle Roller Bearings,
> the correct dimensional accuracy is achieved only
> after the bearings are press-fitted into the specified
> housing bore.
> I guess sometimes we just have to decide whether or not to trust these boffins in the design room with their engineering degrees even though most wouldn't know which end to hold a spanner.
> Based on this information I think I will still use a 5/16" pin.
> What do think you will do and has anyone else had some experience with this? Now I am off to finish the valve rockers.
> Picture of crankshaft minus crankpin.
> Cheers Brian   :rant:



Brian...
As I mentioned earlier I attempted to make a 2 piece crank which was a bust:wall:
I have ordered a 3/4" x 2" x 12" (4140 steel annealed)
I was up most of the morning thinking about it...
Using my drill press drill out the rough "H" pattern and finish cutting with a hack saw removing the blue sections.
Set up 2 centers, one for the shaft and one for the crank pin.
turn the main shaft first on the lathe and them move to the crank pin centers
and turn.
Cut off the extra material from the prop end.
Set it up in my milling attachment and bring the 3/4" thickness of the throw down to .625
Attach the counter weight and turn to match...
Harden and grind to final dementions.
I have no way to harden and grind so may have to contract this out.
Here is a simple drawing as how I was thinking of doing it.
Could you please step me through how you turned yours up?
That is if you haven't left on holiday yet...
(Note: I have used my drill press as an arbor press)
Steve


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Steve,
I must admit it never occurred to me to machine the crank from a rectangular section piece but in your case it is probably a smart move as you will have a lot less metal to remove with that little lathe.I notice you are using 4140 instead of the specified 4340. The smallest diameter 4340 I could find from Australian suppliers was 4" (by the way where are you located) and I sourced some 2'' round 4340 from Online Metals in Seattle. 
To the best of my memory this is how I did mine.
1. Chucked the 2" stock supported with a live center.
2. Turned down the four diameters'  required on the crank a few thou. oversize with a carbide tool and then just a couple of a tenths of a thou. oversize with a high speed tool bit (better finish) and then cut thread.
3. Using a ground steel rule and fine carborundum paper polished crank to exact size.
4. Removed and reversed the crank in the chuck and skimmed diameter true and machined thickness a bit oversize to allow finish grinding of the web and clearance boss.
5. Removed the chuck from lathe and mounted on rotary table on mill and trued and centered then drilled and reamed hole for crankpin.
6. Milled web to rectangular dimensions and drilled and tapped holes for counterweight.
7. Remount chuck on lathe and using jig (see photo) and with back gear engaged and slow RPM so that out of balance is not an issue finish grind web to .355 thick using tool post grinder leaving the .625 diameter for the raised clearance boss.
8. Remove crank from jig and mount in chuck and grind the raised clearance boss to 10 thou. above web.
With regards to heat treatment I spoke with a most helpful person at a company in Adelaide and he said that my 4340 was close to Rockwell C35 hardness anyhow and that further heat treatment would almost certainly change the dimensions slightly and would not recommend it. I am confident the crank will be OK as is but I guess the lesson here is heat treat before final dimensions.
I hope this makes some sort of sense to you Steve and seeing what you have already done I know you will come up with a method that suits you equipment.
Remember there is no right way or wrong way just different ways!
In regards to the counterweight see an earlier post and also one to follow to answer some queries from Michael.
PS. I still should be contactable while away.
Cheers - Brian


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

xjs said:


> Brian, I took a look at the Hemingway site and that is a fine-looking grinder, better than anything I've seen elsewhere. I've got a query in to them about the 120 v. motor -- or simply the option of supplying it without a motor at all.
> 
> One question about your (again, most excellent) recipe for grinding the Edwards crankshaft...when you refer to surface grinding at verious points, is this something you were able to accomplish with the Hemingway's attachment, or are you in fact guilty of possession of a stand-alone surface-grinder?
> 
> And a bonus surprise on the Hemingway site -- they offer a Hall-effect package which, at first glance, seems as though it might be the answer to running this engine on sparks rather than glows, as discussed earlier.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help and illumination...
> 
> Michael



Aloha and G'day Michael,

Yes! Guilty as Charged - I was real lucky and managed to pick up this flat bed grinder from a deceased estate for 800 bucks. I don't think it had much use, just a little paint knocked off I suspect from handling. It is very heavy and we lifted it with a hydraulic crane on a tractor onto my trailer and off and into my workshop with an engine crane. It is a great bit of kit - nothing like it to get a smooth precision flat finish.
I used it to do the flat sides on on the counterweight simply for convenience.
Just clamp on the magnetic chuck and grind away. It could have been done with the tool post grinder on the lathe but would have taken longer to set up for grinding true (perhaps holding in a 4 jaw chuck).
Interesting about Hemingway's Hall Effect Ignition. I had a look and it may have possibilities in the future. I nominate you to research and design a spark ignition for the Edwards. Apparently Forests' spark ignition versions developed a bit more HP. Another inovation was a "fan" in the inlet manifold to better distribute fuel to the cylinders. Something to ponder about?
PS. let me know if Hemingway can supply a grinder kit with a 120v motor or whatever. I spent a lot of time researching and came to the conclusion that it is probably the best option available. I am not really all that keen about grinding on a lathe but made a tray to catch most of the grindings and I now cover the lathe bed and as much as possible with alfoil for protection. When finished the alfoil is carefully removed and I clean the lathe with a vacuum cleaner before finally dusting off with compressed air.

Cheers - Brian  Thm:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

metalmad said:


> Hi Brian
> I too have the Edwards plan set but have not done anything with it.
> I'm told there was a spark ignition version as well, but Ive never seen one.
> Why don't you start a build thread on your Engine, id love to see it
> Hi Anthony
> Looking very nice, very nice indeed.
> Pete



G'day Pete - I apologise for not responding sooner and thank you for your comments. I somehow overlooked it while communicating with Michael and Steve. Sorry!
 This thread has now really come back to life after sitting pretty much idle for 3 1/2 years. Maybe all the new activity will get you fired up and another Edwards Radial underway. I hope so. 

Cheers - Brian - me under the hammer *club*


----------



## xjs

Aloha everyone --

The quest to produce a mid-Pacific Edwards Radial 5 continues -- the cylinder barrels have been duly hacked at, providing my first taste of making parts for this motor in multiples of 5 (everything else so far has been a one-off). So here's one of the barrels...





...and here are five of them doing acrobatics...





...and here are the same five clinging to the crankcase, wondering what happens next...








I imagine the next attempt will be to finish off the cam cover, which will begin with a respectful copy of Brian's fly-cutter to carve out the recesses for the lifters. 

I've begun thinking that I'd really like to build some sort of engine cradle to put this engine together on, rather than just having it loose on the bench. I'd hate to see it go bouncing across the floor after all this. So that will probably come next, and it'll give me some breathing space before taking on the crankshaft and piston assembly, which has been keeping me awake nights. Especially since it now seems that building a toolpost grinder is going to have to be part of that process.

I've been keeping careful track of my machining hours on this project (first time I've done that, and now I know why) and have racked up 82 so far...but the head-time (daydreaming and figuring while doing something else I'm actually paid to do) must be at least ten times that.

With the several engines being built out there has anyone given any thought to actually strapping the finished motor into an aeroplane and flying it? I'd be most interested in anyone's thoughts about an appropriate model idea. I'm thinking so far about a biplane with about a nine-foot span, but I'm open to anything. (Except an ARF, RTF, or anything in the way of a too-detailed scale model. I've seen pictures of the plane Mr. Edwards built for the original (or was it the other way around?), but not too much else.

What a fun project this is.

Michael T


----------



## steze48

xjs said:


> Aloha everyone --
> 
> The quest to produce a mid-Pacific Edwards Radial 5 continues -- the cylinder barrels have been duly hacked at, providing my first taste of making parts for this motor in multiples of 5 (everything else so far has been a one-off). So here's one of the barrels...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and here are five of them doing acrobatics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and here are the same five clinging to the crankcase, wondering what happens next...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine the next attempt will be to finish off the cam cover, which will begin with a respectful copy of Brian's fly-cutter to carve out the recesses for the lifters.
> 
> I've begun thinking that I'd really like to build some sort of engine cradle to put this engine together on, rather than just having it loose on the bench. I'd hate to see it go bouncing across the floor after all this. So that will probably come next, and it'll give me some breathing space before taking on the crankshaft and piston assembly, which has been keeping me awake nights. Especially since it now seems that building a toolpost grinder is going to have to be part of that process.
> 
> I've been keeping careful track of my machining hours on this project (first time I've done that, and now I know why) and have racked up 82 so far...but the head-time (daydreaming and figuring while doing something else I'm actually paid to do) must be at least ten times that.
> 
> With the several engines being built out there has anyone given any thought to actually strapping the finished motor into an aeroplane and flying it? I'd be most interested in anyone's thoughts about an appropriate model idea.  I'm thinking so far about a biplane with about a nine-foot span, but I'm open to anything.  (Except an ARF, RTF, or anything in the way of a too-detailed scale model.  I've seen pictures of the plane Mr. Edwards built for the original (or was it the other way around?), but not too much else.
> 
> What a fun project this is.
> 
> Michael T



Very nice work Michael!
I did make the flycutter that Brian posted but these past few days have been a bust!:wall:
Cindy printed out the cam cover for me and the measurements were misprinted...
Instead of the undercut of 0.200 depth of the cut it came out as 0.400!:fan:
Also I had the cam cover mounted on my rotary with one 1/4-28 cap screw to the center and it let loose and spun on the table ruining the cam housing even further.
OK, Will start over and attach it better to the rotary table this time around.
I have also attempted to make 3 cylinders so far but 2 were unusable as the fin spacing was off...
The best one may be usable...
My problem here is getting the fin spacing equal.
I may purchase a pair of DRO's to help with both the cylinder fin spacing and depth of the under cut on the cam cover...
Steve


----------



## xjs

Hi Steve, and thanks for the feedback!

Sorry to hear you've been having a rough week of it. I've certainly had some of those...and then, just as I'm thinking of taking up knitting instead, something magic happens and I get sucked right back in.

I must say the toughest part of the cylinder barrels, for me, was getting the bore within specs for its whole length. As far as getting the fins consistent, I just relied on the width of the parting tool (ground to 0.040") and using the top cross-slide to back it up that much, plus the width of the fins themselves. Which, by the way, I took to be 0.080"...firstly out of mis-reading the drawing, but then I carried on that way just because it looked better, and at that point in the cylinder I think there'll be enough surface area for cooling anyway. Certainly, when I get to doing the heads, (which is where the main heat is, I guess) they'll have much thinner and more numerous fins.

The cam cover really is a challenge, isn't it? Your account of your 1/4"x28 cap screw letting go at an embarassing moment is a bit disturbing -- the setup I just began to use last night also relies on a 1/4" bolt (though it's 20 tpi, and a hex) through a clearance hole in a short plug turned to fit the 0.890" ID, and screwed tightly into a hex nut gripped in a 3-jaw. Here's a pic of it the last time I saw it:






As you can tell I'm just drilling the holes for the mounting screws so far, but now I'm getting a bit twitched about how it'll hold up when I start whacking away with my newly-hatched flycutter. It certainly seems solid enough, but if it's not you may hear the bang all the way from Oz. :hDe:

All best,

Michael


----------



## Lakc

I built a 2 cylinder boxer that used Edwards head bolt pattern. If I had to do it over again I would increase that base circle to give some more room between the bolts and cylinder for head gasket sealing surface. 
I did not make any attempt to fin the cylinders according to his plans. I left a good margin at the top and threaded and bolted directly to the cylinder, and used a 6 bolt pattern for an expanded bottom flange to mate with the engine casing.
I did not really intend to copy his design, it started out as a cad exercise to determine the Edwards valve seat area, as it bisects a conical combustion surface. Next thing I knew I had drawn an entire engine around it, and dared myself to build it.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael, Steve and all.
As you can see I am now back on line up in Newcastle on the east coast.
Sorry to hear of your bust with the cam cover Steve - work needs to be mounted as securely and rigidly as possible and we've all made measurement errors. I hope the next one works better for you. Please keep posting.
Mike those barrels look great. At the rate you are going you are going to finish way ahead of me. I purchased a really neat parting tool and holder from the USA that takes a 40 thou. parting blade and allows you to get really close to your work and was also great for parting off the piston rings. It came from a small company and I can't remember the name but can look it up when I get home and also take a photo if you are interested.
I should have given the dimensions of the fly cutter but I am pretty sure that the shaft was 1/2" and the head 1" dia. which only left 1/4" of the 1/8" squ. tool bit protruding. 
It looks like you mount your chuck on the rotary table much the same as I do.
When I undercut the cam follower grooves the tool really sizzled - no thumping and banging so hope it works the same for you. The last thing I want is to give a bum steer. 
Photo cutting slots - can't see much for the chips.

Cheers Brian            :toilet:


----------



## xjs

Just to reassure you, Brian, that the flycutter worked like a dream. Or at least, it has so far. I had to stop work after nine recesses last night because the noise was beginning to disturb some of the neighbors in the building where I have my shop (I share the building with a couple of artists' studios, a Korean church, a bordello, and an insurance agent. As you might imagine, the insurance agent is the biggest problem). Once the tenth recess is successfully excavated I'll suck out the swarf and take a pic.

Best.

Michael T


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

xjs said:


> Just to reassure you, Brian, that the flycutter worked like a dream. Or at least, it has so far. I had to stop work after nine recesses last night because the noise was beginning to disturb some of the neighbors in the building where I have my shop (I share the building with a couple of artists' studios, a Korean church, a bordello, and an insurance agent. As you might imagine, the insurance agent is the biggest problem). Once the tenth recess is successfully excavated I'll suck out the swarf and take a pic.
> 
> Best.
> 
> Michael T



Interesting mix Michael - at least you can brush up on things, cleanse the soul,insure against busts or ------------ no! not going down that path. - Brian


----------



## steze48

Here are the pictures of my cylinders...
The 1st. one is useless but for the second, I started cutting the cooling fins at the full 2" diameter.
I still have enough "meat" to re-cut the fins on that one.
I too have a small taper in the cylinders where the liner will slide in.
I will tackle this with my cylinder hone.
The #3 to the right is fairly good but will order enough 2" to make 6 more...
The largest bit I have to bore them is a 3/4" but I am going to order a 15/16" and 1" bit.
That will get me large enough with very little clean-up with my boring bar...
Maybe that will give me less of a taper...
I think I have figured out a way to space the fins...
I will make 2 .040 spacers, glue then together with one longer than the other...
Cut one groove move over insert the spacer in that groove and set the tool up against and cut the next...
I had an idea of making a fin tool that has 2 cutters .040 with an .040 space between...
That would give my spacing
I ordered a slitting saw blade 1/8" x 1-1/2" and made an arbor for it...
My lathe is so small that I was getting too much chatter and thumping by using the fly cutter.
It was shaking the gib screws loose!
The 1/8" slitting saw should be more easy my lathe.
As I said I had my cam cover mounted with 1, 1/4-28 screw through the middle which wasn't enough.
I only have a 3" rotary so I will make up 2 brackets that will slide in the T slot groove.
Thread them for screws and clamp the cam cover to that...
Maybe that will work...
I also found an .040 cut-off tool on ebay and may purchase it...
I am not a pro and my rejects are building up in the scrap pile! LOL!:rant:
Steve


----------



## kvom

Since you don't have a DRO, you can use a DI with a magnet to move the carriage the required spacing for the fins.  On my first lathe there was no DRO, but we had a "Mighty Mag" holder that secures the DI along the ways.  With the DI plunger depressed against the saddle, zero it, and then use the needle to move the carriage the needed distance.  You can get the holder and magnet on eBay for less than $30.  Or make your own holder.


----------



## xjs

Gentlemen --

So far so good with the cam cover, though I'm acutely aware that the more hours I put into it the madder I'm going to be with myself if I make an error and bust it. It's at the point where I'll sit and stare at it for ten minutes before removing the slightest amount of metal, even after checking all the numbers twice and doing a half-dozen mental rehearsals.

And then I have to remind myself I'm doing this for fun.

In that spirit, hang in there with those cylinders, Steve...what you've done so far is just amazing and you're going to be the proud poppa of five killer barrels in just a little while I have no doubt. 

Anyway here's the all-thanks-to-Brian flycutter with ten lifter recesses under its belt...breathing a bit heavily but none the worse for wear...





The cover is set up now for drilling the holes around the outside radius for the lifters themselves. Though that'll have to wait for tomorrow, I'm playing hooky from the shop today...a very unusual opportunity presented itself and I just got back from being hauled around the skies over Oahu by a real, live, honest-to-god radial engine...a nine-cylinder Pratt and Whitney, powering a 1929 Bellanca. It's the first-ever aircraft of Hawaiian Airlines, since sold, crashed, sunk, re-built, re-purchased and now fullly restored. Here it is on the ground:





...and, here's what it looks like from the rear when it's hauling you around.





But what I wish I could share with you is what it SOUNDS like. Probably you've had more experience with the real thing than I have, I'm coming late to this. But nothing, nothing on this earth, is as thrilling (to me) as the sound of a radial at full roar. It's just marvellous, majestic, magical. 

Building even a baby one from scratch, as we're doing, is an act of devotion.

I just don't understand what people see in football.


----------



## Maxine

xjs said:


> Gentlemen --
> 
> So far so good with the cam cover, though I'm acutely aware that the more hours I put into it the madder I'm going to be with myself if I make an error and bust it. It's at the point where I'll sit and stare at it for ten minutes before removing the slightest amount of metal, even after checking all the numbers twice and doing a half-dozen mental rehearsals.
> 
> And then I have to remind myself I'm doing this for fun.
> 
> In that spirit, hang in there with those cylinders, Steve...what you've done so far is just amazing and you're going to be the proud poppa of five killer barrels in just a little while I have no doubt.
> 
> Anyway here's the all-thanks-to-Brian flycutter with ten lifter recesses under its belt...breathing a bit heavily but none the worse for wear...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cover is set up now for drilling the holes around the outside radius for the lifters themselves. Though that'll have to wait for tomorrow, I'm playing hooky from the shop today...a very unusual opportunity presented itself and I just got back from being hauled around the skies over Oahu by a real, live, honest-to-god radial engine...a nine-cylinder Pratt and Whitney, powering a 1929 Bellanca. It's the first-ever aircraft of Hawaiian Airlines, since sold, crashed, sunk, re-built, re-purchased and now fullly restored. Here it is on the ground:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and, here's what it looks like from the rear when it's hauling you around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But what I wish I could share with you is what it SOUNDS like. Probably you've had more experience with the real thing than I have, I'm coming late to this. But nothing, nothing on this earth, is as thrilling (to me) as the sound of a radial at full roar. It's just marvellous, majestic, magical.
> 
> Building even a baby one from scratch, as we're doing, is an act of devotion.
> 
> I just don't understand what people see in football.




What a thrill.  That's GREAT!


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Steve, I am following your build with interest and as I am currently 1000 miles from my own workshop I have time to fill in " in other peoples workshops". I must admit I am at a bit of a loss to understand your issues spacing the barrel fins. Using a .040" parting tool why can't you advance .040" using the compound (top slide) and cut to the specified depth with the cross slide. I am not at all familiar with your lathe but did download the operating manual from HF and it did not say how the dials were calibrated other than to say "work tolerance .005". 
As for turning a taper in barrels have you turned a test bar to see if your lathe turns parallel? - and yes I agree the slitting saw will be a much better option for you and your equipment than the fly cutter.
Hang in there for when you are finished it will be all the more satisfying for doing it on the machinery you have.

Cheers - Brian      :bow:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike, - whew! I am as relieved as you that the fly cutter worked and what an unreal experience to actually fly in that beautiful radial engined plane. And yes - nothing but nothing sounds like a radial, I am sure that is one of the main reasons I am building one.I have flown over the "Big Island" in a light aircraft but unfortunately not radial powered. There are some guys here in Australia that manufacture new radial engines for aircraft (or a chopper motocycle if you are an American). Google Rotec Radial. On a sadder note one of our local residents who had a 80% scale Spitfire and was often seen buzzing the town crashed at an air show in Adelaide a week ago and was killed.
While I am here at our daughters place I have time the study the plans for the heads and work out how I am going to tackle them when I return home. That should add some stress to the holiday.

Cheers  -  Brian             :idea:


----------



## steze48

kvom said:


> Since you don't have a DRO, you can use a DI with a magnet to move the carriage the required spacing for the fins.  On my first lathe there was no DRO, but we had a "Mighty Mag" holder that secures the DI along the ways.  With the DI plunger depressed against the saddle, zero it, and then use the needle to move the carriage the needed distance.  You can get the holder and magnet on eBay for less than $30.  Or make your own holder.



Thanks kvom...
I do have a DI and a cheap-O magnetic base I use for centering...
The base is not so good as with the adjustments tight it still has a tendency to move around...
I had planed on beefing it up to hold a firm position.
I will attempt to fix it and try this...
Thinks for the idea...
As for the scales behind the hand wheels on the compound and cross slide, they are not so good...
What are your thoughts of making this 2 prong cut-off or fining tool?

Steve


----------



## steze48

My first experience with a radial engine was at McCord AFB Tacoma, Washington around 1960...
My Father was in the USAF and he used to take me out to the flight line to see the C-124's that he worked on...
He was a Recip mechanic...A&P
I can still hear it today and will always be with me...
There is no other sound in this world like it!

Steve


----------



## xjs

Not much time for machining lately, a particularly busy time at work, but with the joyful noise of that Pratt & Whitney still ringing in my ears I can't seem to put this project down entirely. A stolen few hours here and there have brought the cam cover to a conclusion...









Next objective is to build some sort of assembly cradle for the motor, which I think may also be a way of postponing the crankshaft fabrication, which is the next piece on the list. I'm planning to make it out of plate, by the way, for the reason you're planning, to, Steve...I just don't want to subject my lathe to that much punishment. Also, Brian, I've sent a couple of e-mails to Hemingway about that toolpost grinder and its motor, by the way, and haven't heard anything back yet.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Cam - cover looks great Mike . I am looking forward to see what you come up with in the way of an engine mount - I have pretty much decided that will be the last thing on my list. This is just my thoughts on machining the crank from round versus rectangular section steel. 
Pro's :  much less metal to remove speeding up manufacturing time. 
Con's : Having to machine a square - rectangular section to round which initially means having intermittent edges banging against the cutting tool edge.
To me this is tougher on lathe and tool than removing more material at a constant even cutting pressure particularly with a tough steel like 4340. This is why I chose to grind the end of the crank rather than turn. 
Unknown: Grain structure of a round section compared to a rectangular section that could impact on strength. I have absolutely no idea.
Mike I am surprised that you have not received a reply from Kirk at Hemingway's. Personally I have found him a great guy to deal with - maybe your emails have not got through for some reason. If you have no joy let me know and I will try from my end on your behalf.

Cheers Brians     scratch.gif


----------



## varonicaleon

Great post I appreciate your post. Thanks for sharing I always search this type of post.


----------



## xjs

The last thing on my list, engine-mount-wise, will be an aeroplane capable of lifting this piece of ironmongery up in the air. It's the deal I made with myself -- it has to be able to fly to justify construction, so any ideas for a suitable vehicle would be gratefully received. 

This particular engine mount is simply a way of keeping the assembly in one place while I do all the fiddling about that I'm sure is going to be necessary with the cranks and the cams and the heads and all of that. I can't promise to be sober throughout the whole procedure and I want to minimize the chance of dropping the thing on a concrete floor.

The choice of material for the crank, round or flat, seems to be six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. I seem to recall actually ordering the plate material back in January, but will have to check next time I'm in the shop to see if this actually occurred. If not then I'll sit and scratch my head for a while. I must admit I'd never considered anything as subtle as the grain.

As for Hemingway, my e-mails have been sent to their "info" address...let's give them a couple more days to respond to my latest (yesterday) missive before taking you up on your kind offer, Brian, which I certainly would before giving up.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike and all - as you can see because I am currently away from my shop I have nothing better to fill in my time with but to annoy you all with more posts.
Mike I am constantly asked if I am going to fit my engine to a flying model but I have no experience flying RC planes other than messing around with a helicopter some thirty years ago, early days for model choppers with no gyro's or collective pitch. My reaction times have now probably slowed a bit but I think I may get a slow flying ready to fly plane and radio and see how I get on and take things from there and have also considered a RC computer simulator.
I would not put my engine in a plane and fly it (not myself anyhow) unless I was fully confident in being able to control it. It is one of those suck it and see situations. A prang would almost certainly damage the engine.
I must admit I would enjoy building a plane and my thoughts agree with an earlier comment of yours - possibly something around 1/4 scale with two wings for plenty of lift and as well many of those early period aircraft used radial engines. But hey! wouldn't a Corsair be cool.
I suspect an Edwards may finish up a bit nose heavy in a scale warbird - what do think?

Cheers Brian          *beer*


----------



## xjs

Exactly my issue with a super-scale plane, much as I love the Corsair.  Also a low-wing plane is harder to control, and I'd like to keep the odds in favor f not bending my shiny new cam cover. A biplane I think will be the thing...a Sopwith Camel wannabe, maybe?

It's all a ways off though...if I can just get this beastie built and running by years end ill be a happy duck.


----------



## xjs

Made a start on the assembly cradle, which had to start with a set of motor mounts...nothing all that fancy, but they do add a bit of a Flash Gordon flair to the assembly so far...





....and here it is from the rear, barrels attached and boldly going where no radial has gone before...





Next is something to attach the mounts to, then something to attach that to, and so on.

Happy Easter, everyone.


----------



## Trubble

I dunno.....personally I love the sound of radials ticking over  (that primal cast iron engine hot cam no muffler thing I guess !)


----------



## xjs

Brian ---

If you're returned from your trip and at leisure, and still have a mind to help, I'd appreciate your giving your contact at Hemingway a nudge...I've still not heard back...and all I want to know is If they can supply their grinder with a 115 v. Motor.

Many thx

M


----------



## metalmad

Hi Xjs
Looking fantastic, love your work Mate!
Pete


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike,
I have sent an email to Kirk at Hemingway's and will keep you posted as to developments.
I am now back home and will shortly be trying to get my head around "those heads".
Here is a list of the Edwards parts I have NOT yet done so the parts I HAVE done can be identified if anyone has any queries.
003 cylinder heads  -  003-1 rocker bracket  -  008-6 rocker button  -  008-7 valve adjusting screw  -  009-5 locating pin  -  010-1 cone  -  010-2 prop hub  - 011-3 plunger spring  -  012-4 idler bushing  -  012-6 idler shaft  -  013-1 gear spacer  -  013-2 cam spacer  -  013-3 cam bearing spacer  -  013-4 bearing spacer  -  019-2 valve spring  -  020-1 flange  -  020-2 intake tube.
As can be seen the heads and intake tubes are the only complex parts to make but at the rate I work I can still see the rest of the year taken up.

Cheers Mike and all - Brian   :wall:


----------



## xjs

Aloha Brian and company :

Thanks so much for sending up a flare to the Hemingway folks...I still have the money set aside for the grinder but I may squander it soon on going to see a Rolling Stones concert in Las Vegas. Might be my last chance while Mick and I are still on the right side of the dirt.

My little assembly cradle (this week's modest project) is done, and seems practical:





and, from the other side...





The motor mounts are pretty obvious, just carved out of 1/2" square ali; the circular mount is milled out from a 5" diameter 7075 billet, and the leftover center piece was used as the actual base mount (screwed to a Home-Depot-bought piece of 17" dia. circular piece of 3/4" ply), with a 3 1/2" length of stainless 1/2" dia. in between, screwed into the ali circle, and just sitting inside the 1/2" reamed center of the base mount. It seems secure, and rotates easily whenever shoved.

Glad your trip went well, Brian, and I hope it concludes safely and successfully. "Those heads" are waiting, and I'm a little envious...if for no other reason than, when I'm able to get my teeth into them, it'll mean that that *[email protected]# crankshaft will be behind me...as it is that slab of tool steel is just laying there grinning at me, and I don't know if I'm at all equal to the task.

If not, I suppose there's more steel in the world.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike,

I have received a reply from Kirk at Hemingway's and he says he wrote to you on March 29th. I guess you have some information coming snail mail.
I have pretty much decided to fit separate valve guides to the heads and am about to play around with some phosphor bronze and try to get an idea if this will be successful - will keep you informed.
By the way that stand is great and looks like it could be adapted to mount in an aircraft later.

Cheers Brian


----------



## xjs

Many thanks, Brian--I'll look forward to hearing back from Kirk. 

Yes, my imaginary heads have guide-inserts in them too...I gather both brass and bronze have been used successfully. 

My crankshaft is now in a state of becoming, though all it's become so far is a rough-sawn T-shaped piece of very tough steel, with some milled reference edges. My lathe has been looking at it nervously, and I've been wondering how to tactfully introduce them to one another when the time comes. It's going to be a bumpy relationship, at least in the beginning. I hope they don't talk among themselves when I'm not there.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike , Steve and all,

I spent most of today messing around working out how to do the valve guides. this is my prototype.
Machined from 5/16" 544 phosphor bronze with hex. cut for 7mm socket so guides can be firmly tightened in head (I will also use loctite). The other diameters are 1/4" with the thread end 32 tpi same as for the glo-plug. I tapped a scrap piece of aluminium as a test and the guide pulled up nicely in it. 
As I didn't have a 1/4" 32 die I had to cut the thread on the lathe but am going to purchase a die and grind one side to remove the lead in taper so that the thread can be finished with the die and cut right up to the flange.
Other alternatives would be to cut a thin recess next to the flange or use a thin precision ground washer to ensure the flange pulls up square in the head. 
Fingers crossed but I think this is going to work OK so that now I have figured out (I hope) the procedure to make them it shouldn't take to long to make the 10 required.
How is your project coming along Steve?

Cheers all  -  Brian   :noidea:


----------



## ozzie46

Excellent work Brian. 
I plan on building this at some point in time  so this thread is very helpful.

 On your valve guides, is there some reason you don't want to use valve cage assemlies? That is what I have in mind. It just seems an easier way to make sure everything is concentric. They could be put into the heads with locktite.

 Ron


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Ron - Evening actually, thank you for you accolades and comments.
I did actually consider a valve cage assembly incorporating the valve seat but somehow I seem to like the idea of the guides doubly secure in the heads. I don't anticipate any concentricity issues as I intend to make a valve seat cutter that fits into the guides ensuring the valve seats are perfectly aligned and concentric with the guides. 
Thats my story anyhow and I'm sticking to it (for now!) but as they say the best laid plans of mice and men are bound to go astray.

Cheers Ron and thanks again for your interest and comments - it is appreciated.*bang*


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day all - all ten valve guides are now completed but modified from the original listed "prototype".
On reflection I was a bit concerned that possibly the valve spring could bind on the nut area at the bottom of the guide as there was little clearance so redesigned them with as smaller diameter 5.5mm nut cut at the top of the guide. There is now plenty of clearance for the valve spring along the full length of the guide. The total length of the guide is .590" including the thread.
I have just started on the heads and can see that they will keep me occupied for quite some time.
Cheers Brian  -  scratch.gif


----------



## xjs

Gorgeous work Brian...several centuries ago I knew an elderly tool and die guy, all gnarly and beery and surrounded by smoke, who didn't hold with any of the newfangled theories of metallurgy and mechanics and such but lived (most successfully) by the creed "If it looks right, it IS right."

That final guide just looks right.

For my part I'm still hacking away at the crankshaft, making slow progress, but some. It's still the busy season at work, so not much shop time, but maybe I'll have something to photograph by next weekend.

Never did hear back from Hemingway, so went ahead and spent the money...booked the trip and seats for a Stones concert (in Anaheim, overall a less hazardous deal than Vegas). Grinders will keep. Mick won't, at least not as long.

m


----------



## petertha

Been watching the parts & assembly come together. Nice work. I don't want to impose on this nice build thread, so created a new post/question re Edwards lubrication system here. Maybe someone can help elaborate?

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f26/edwards-radial-5-lubrication-20687/#post217567


----------



## xjs

The crankshaft came out beautifully. Well, almost.






The rough-turning of the shaft from the sawn plate took a couple of hours, but with auto-fed twenty-thou cuts and a carbide toolbit it was pretty painless. Then, the last few thou with a HSS bit, down to the last couple of tenths, and the final finish (a la Brian) with emery cloth and a flat steel rule. Gorgeous, everything just the way it should be.

Threading the business end, where one day a 22x8 propeller will be proudly mounted...the first fifteen thou of thread depth on the lathe, finishing with a die...couldn't have gone better.

Then the final milling-to-spec of the rectangular end rotor, and the machining of the counterweight...all of this went as though blessed from on high. The counterweight nestled so nicely onto the rotor you'd have thought they were made for each other (which, of course....).



 
http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/mtitterton/media/Mic-ingfinish-milledrotor_zps1fc2cf32.jpg.html

Then, just one last thing before setting up to machine the crankpin bore in the rotor...drill and tap the holes to secure the counterweight. 

Two beautiful tapping-sized holes, a half-inch deep to allow plenty of room for 3/8" of thread...

Then....

H O W L ! ! ! ! !  H O W L ! ! ! !  H O W L ! ! ! ! 

...the 6-32 tap snaps off like a carrot, at its full depth, and just refuses all encouragement to vacate the hole. An attempt to repeat the operation on he other end of the rotor crashes and burns (after two holes ARE successfully drilled and tapped) when it is discovered that the diameter of the hole for the crankpin is greater than the distance between the first pair of holes...and the remains of the tap. No drilling to be done there.

Oh, woe.

Well, at least I can salvage the counterweight. And maybe, in the fullness of time, I'll find something to do with my beautiful-but-useless crankshaft. Paperweight? Fancy tack-hammer? 

So, I've ordered more steel (2" round this time, just to compare the two approaches) and another box of Kleenex. While I'm waiting for them to arrive I'm making some link rods. From nice, friendly aluminium.

Meanwhile, if anyone knows any magic spells I might use to make that broken tap vanish from that hole (Tappus Begonnus!!) I'm ready to boil up a newt or two. Just give me the recipe.

:wall:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Oh no! that is the worst thing that can happen when the :fan: at the end of the job not at the beginning. My heart bleeds for you Michael.
I am currently in a cold sweat working on a head - nearly finished one and hoping something similar doesn't happen to me. I decided to use a sacrificial head to test some of the procedures to see if they worked rather than risk stuffing up the actual job. 
Progress has been painfully slow but so far so good with only the inlet and exhaust ports and top fins to do. Photo is of job so far with valve guides temporarily screwed in and a valve shoved in for effect.
There is a lot of steps in the heads and I have made a brief to see me through with the remaining four so hopefully things may be a bit quicker with them. I tend to check - double check and then contemplate with a senior moment before moving on - all very time consuming.
Good luck with the revisited crank.
Cheers Brian   :toilet:


----------



## xjs

Lovely work Brian.  So painstaking.  If I'd known the value of taking "senior moment" pauses for reflection fifty years ago I probably would have gotten in a lot less trouble ever since.  Those guides are looking particularly good...can't wait to see your "sacrificial" head with fins and ports and glo-plug hole.  And, do I recall you saying you're going to fabricate the cutter for the valve seats?

Question:  anyone know anything about anodizing on a small scale?  I've been thinking I'd like to anodize my cylinder barrels before fitting them with liners.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all - just a quick note to apologise for being AWOL from the forum (and the workshop ) for a few weeks. I have been away playing golf and attending to a bit of other stuff but am back on base and have been working on the heads all day. I can see they are going to take me weeks to complete but will keep the forum updated. Michael I guess you have been off to LA to Micks' 
concert - how did it go. I can't help with the anodizing but a Google should bring up some information - I will be interested to see how you get on if you tackle this.

Cheers - Brian      *discussion*


----------



## canadianhorsepower

> Meanwhile, if anyone knows any magic spells I might use to make that broken tap vanish from that hole (Tappus Begonnus!!) I'm ready to boil up a newt or two. Just give me the recipe.


Sorry to hear this but you save your part. put your crank in hot water and put some ALUM on top of your tap
to form like "milky mud" keep it simmer , i use a coffe warmer, you'll have to add some water once a while
but it works. It's a long process giving you time to do other things in mean while



> Question: anyone know anything about anodizing on a small scale? I've been thinking I'd like to anodize my cylinder barrels before fitting them with liners.


 
Model Engineers Workshop had  very good article in the revue #194 "October 2012"


----------



## steze48

Hello all...I have put my engine on hold for now...
I feel it is nearly imposable to build this engine without a mill...
I am saving up for one...
Everyones work looks great!!!


----------



## mu38&Bg#

canadianhorsepower said:


> put your crank in hot water and put some ALUM on top of your tap to form like "milky mud" keep it simmer , i use a coffe warmer, you'll have to add some water once a while
> but it works. It's a long process giving you time to do other things in mean while



This works when the part the tap is stuck in is not made of steel. A steel part will dissolve along with the steel tap.


----------



## jwcnc1911

XJS, if you haven't found anything about anodizing send me a pm.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

steze48 said:


> Hello all...I have put my engine on hold for now...
> I feel it is nearly imposable to build this engine without a mill...
> I am saving up for one...
> Everyones work looks great!!!



Hi Steve - sorry to hear you have had to put your engine on hold but under the circumstances I am sure you are doing the right thing. There is absolutely no way I could build this engine without a mill and my only advice is to keep saving until you can get a decent size one and make sure it is a sturdy piece of kit. You will still be appreciating the quality long after you have forgotten the purchase price.
Please stay in touch with the forum - by the time you get your mill we will all have had enough busts and hopefully some solutions that we can help you along with your Edwards Radial.

Cheers and take care - Brian    Thm:


----------



## xjs

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Hi Michael and all - just a quick note to apologise for being AWOL from the forum (and the workshop ) for a few weeks. I have been away playing golf and attending to a bit of other stuff but am back on base and have been working on the heads all day. I can see they are going to take me weeks to complete but will keep the forum updated. Michael I guess you have been off to LA to Micks'
> concert - how did it go.
> Cheers - Brian *discussion*


Good to know you're back, Brian, though I had no idea golf was one of your vices. 

Those heads of yours looked fabulous last I saw. Looking forward to the next pics. I haven't yet re-attempted the crankshaft, though new material did recently arrive so it won't be very long now. I've been filling in the time with the Master Rod (done) and Link Rods (done), doing some long-overdue cleanup in the shop, and attempting the Pistons. I say "attempting" since my initial crop of five was reduced to two after a succession of three busted-off 0.043" drills in the holes where the oilways should be. The only thing that finally stopped the carnage was my running out of drillbits. That, and 1" dia. 2024 ... now there's more of both on the way. I really must be more careful, or at least change medications.

The concert was unbelievably fine, thanks for asking -- two and a half days of travel for a two and a half hour concert turned out to be a very good exchange indeed. Rock and roll worthy of the name. The last time I saw the Stones (in London, in the early sixties) they were the opening act for Ike and Tina Turner -- they've come a long way since then.

But then, so have we all.


----------



## xjs

canadianhorsepower said:


> Sorry to hear this but you save your part. put your crank in hot water and put some ALUM on top of your tap
> to form like "milky mud" keep it simmer , i use a coffe warmer, you'll have to add some water once a while
> but it works. It's a long process giving you time to do other things in mean while


 
Many thanks for the advice, but I must humbly ask...what is ALUM? A trade name, or chemical, or something else? I certainly love the idea no matter how long it might take...though I noticed that another correspondent has suggested that it might "melt" the surrounding steel? Either way I'd still love to know...I'm perfectly capable of breaking future taps in something other than steel....


----------



## xjs

steze48 said:


> Hello all...I have put my engine on hold for now...
> I feel it is nearly imposable to build this engine without a mill...
> I am saving up for one...
> Everyones work looks great!!!


 

Steve, as I think has been said before, it's just amazing what you've gotten done so far without a mill...I can't wait to see what you could do WITH one.  (In the meanwhile, while the piggy-bank is still inhaling, are there enough turning-only parts in the R-8 to keep you occupied, or d'you think you'll try something else entirely?)


----------



## Buchanan

XJS 

Have you managed to get that tap out your crank yet?

If you post it to me in Australia I will spark it out on my EDM machine. You only pay the postage.
Regards 
Deryck


----------



## xjs

Buchanan said:


> XJS
> 
> Have you managed to get that tap out your crank yet?
> 
> If you post it to me in Australia I will spark it out on my EDM machine. You only pay the postage.
> Regards
> Deryck



How can I possibly decline such a generous offer??  PM me with delivery details and it'll be on its way!!

m


----------



## canadianhorsepower

xjs said:


> Many thanks for the advice, but I must humbly ask...what is ALUM? A trade name, or chemical, or something else? I certainly love the idea no matter how long it might take...though I noticed that another correspondent has suggested that it might "melt" the surrounding steel? Either way I'd still love to know...I'm perfectly capable of breaking future taps in something other than steel....


 
Hi "ALUN" is aluminum sulfate and potassium mixe together you can get this
at the grocery store they use that to make pickle crisper when doing marinade or you can get it at a nutaral store product en some pharmacie.

As for it melting steel or metal never happed to me and it's been sucessfull
to many shop
good work on that motor


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Michael I don't know if this information is useful or not but I have not had that "guts in your boots feeling" when a tap breaks of in your work since using this device. When using small taps you can really "feel" what the tap is doing - when it needs backing off or out for cleaning or has bottomed in the hole. I have used it for all tapping operation on the Edwards and not broken a tap.
It is available from Shars  - they call it a Machine Tapping Guide part # 404-7347. Unfortunately it is supplied with a chuck that is "crap" so you need a decent chuck and a drill chuck shank also available from Shars.
1/4" 1JT drill chuck part # 202-5001 and 1/2" J1 chuck shank part # 202-1301.
You need to drive out the shaft on the original chuck and fit the new shank and chuck. The knurled hand piece slides on the shaft that can be gripped in the mill chuck or drill press etc. The brass collar fitted on mine fits in a 3/4" collet which allows more working space when using it with the mill. All up cost under $20.00. - use with Tap Magic and all should be well.
Are you backing out your drills often to clear them of swarf ?
P.S. have just set up to cut fins in top of head - will post photo soon.
Cheers Brian :idea:


----------



## xjs

canadianhorsepower said:


> Hi "ALUN" is aluminum sulfate and potassium mixe together you can get this
> at the grocery store they use that to make pickle crisper when doing marinade or you can get it at a nutaral store product en some pharmacie.
> 
> As for it melting steel or metal never happed to me and it's been sucessfull
> to many shop
> good work on that motor


 
That's great, Luc, many thanks. I had no idea about this technique, but it's now been duly entered into my Book Of Spells. I know it won't be long before I use it!


----------



## xjs

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Michael I don't know if this information is useful or not but I have not had that "guts in your boots feeling" when a tap breaks of in your work since using this device. When using small taps you can really "feel" what the tap is doing - when it needs backing off or out for cleaning or has bottomed in the hole. I have used it for all tapping operation on the Edwards and not broken a tap.
> It is available from Shars - they call it a Machine Tapping Guide part # 404-7347. Unfortunately it is supplied with a chuck that is "crap" so you need a decent chuck and a drill chuck shank also available from Shars.
> 1/4" 1JT drill chuck part # 202-5001 and 1/2" J1 chuck shank part # 202-1301.
> You need to drive out the shaft on the original chuck and fit the new shank and chuck. The knurled hand piece slides on the shaft that can be gripped in the mill chuck or drill press etc. The brass collar fitted on mine fits in a 3/4" collet which allows more working space when using it with the mill. All up cost under $20.00. - use with Tap Magic and all should be well.
> Are you backing out your drills often to clear them of swarf ?
> P.S. have just set up to cut fins in top of head - will post photo soon.
> Cheers Brian :idea:


 
If it works for you, Brian, then that's plenty good enough for me. The Incident of the Broken Tap occurred while hand-tapping, with a nice tiny tap-holder, plenty of cutting oil, and I was backing-off every quarter turn -- but it snapped just the same. I can only imagine I'd gotten too used to tapping aluminium and brass, and I didn't have as sensitive a feel as I thought I did. Anyway I love the look of that little gadget, and I'd never dealt with Shars before, so I've placed the order per your instructions and now can look forward to another catalog for bedtime reading. And a whole new tapping experience. 

Mahalo nui loa for the kokua. And may good fortune attend your finning.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

canadianhorsepower said:


> Hi "ALUN" is aluminum sulfate and potassium mixe together you can get this
> at the grocery store they use that to make pickle crisper when doing marinade or you can get it at a nutaral store product en some pharmacie.
> 
> As for it melting steel or metal never happed to me and it's been sucessfull



Can you clarify your method with a steel part? Any mention of taps and alum clearly says for nonferrous parts.

Greg


----------



## canadianhorsepower

dieselpilot said:


> Can you clarify your method with a steel part? Any mention of taps and alum clearly says for nonferrous parts.
> 
> Greg


 
I would prefer not to,not interested in an argument

all I will say is this LESS CARBON in your steel
less effect it's going to have
I usually get Liquid Alun and use a seringe to put it in the hole itself

I had read that to,(about nonferrous parts) and did test it on a regular 12l14 before, give it a try!!


----------



## mu38&Bg#

canadianhorsepower said:


> I would prefer not to,not interested in an argument



Thanks for the help.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Mike et all - I have finally finished all of the heads (except cutting valve seats - have to make a tool for that). As suspected they took a lot of work - multiple set ups and many, many tool changes all very time consuming but non the less very satisfying. I found the main challenge maintaining concentration - not the sort of task to tackle with mates hanging over your shoulder drinking beer. The inlet and exhaust flats and horizontal fins were machined with the work still in the chuck mounted on the rotary table. The ports and vertical fins were done with the head mounted in one of three positions on an angle plate attached to the rotary table. I drilled and tapped the angle plate to utilize three of the head mounting holes so that the valve guide and glo-plug holes could be through drilled with the drill passing through into the slot in the the angle plate. 
Just a word of caution - I would suggest drilling the holes (to be tapped 2/56) for securing the inlet manifold and exhaust flanges .213 deep not the .313 on the plans as it is way too close to breaking through into the recess where the top of the cylinder rests. I think .213 is plenty of thread for the task.
I may have a bit of a break before getting back into things (the Fun Police is on my back to do some plumbing) and I think it will be a more mundane part like the rocker mounts. OK that's about it - But more importantly how is your project coming along - Did you ever get to hear from Hemingways ?

Cheers all - Brian th_wav


----------



## xjs

Brian, those heads are magnificent, an art exhibit all on their own. They seem altogether too beautiful to be subjected to hundreds of explosions every minute, all that hammering and banging. 

But, a job's a job, I guess.  And just because you happen to be pretty doesn't exempt you from your calling. 

Thanks for the details on your set-ups...I'm keeping a file on all of these.  Progress on my own motor has slowed a little...I'm traveling on the mainland just now, so it'll be a couple of weeks before I get back to the shop, and even then it'll be intermittent -- a couple of special projects at work are taking way too much of my time.  Never thought I'd be looking forward to Retirement, but now I just see it as potential shop-time and it's taking on much more appeal. 

Finishing up the pistons are next on my list, and the rest of the related assembly, including the interrupted crankshaft.  In odd moments recently I've fabricated a few minor parts, prepared the idler gear assemblies, and made a few more tools for the shop -- including a ball-turner, something I've wanted for a couple of years, and could finally rationalize as being necessary for making the ends of the R5's pushrods.  I'll send pics when I get back to the Islands.

No, I never did hear back from Hemingway, mysteriously.  I did however follow through on your suggestion of a machine-tapping holder from Shars, and it's a real boon--I've had occasion to use it a couple f times and it makes the world of difference.  Suddenly I'm in control of small taps, realizing I never really was before.  Once again, sir, I am in your debt.

It's also got me thinking that, when time permits, I'd like to make me a micro drill press, along the lines of the machine designed by the late Jerry Howell.  It's helped me put a higher premium on sensitivity and delicacy.  Sounds stickily New-Age-y, I know, but perhaps I'll end up spending a lot less on broken drills and taps, and less time howling at the ceiling after screwing up a part.

All best...looking forward to seeing what you come up with along the lines of a valve seat cutter.

Aloha nui loa,


----------



## aarggh

Fantastic work Brian! I'm amazed at how good a job the slotting saw did on them, very nice!

cheers, Ian


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

aarggh said:


> Fantastic work Brian! I'm amazed at how good a job the slotting saw did on them, very nice!
> 
> cheers, Ian



Thanks for your comments Ian - this project is the first time I have used (even seen) slitting saws and was pleasantly surprised at how nicely they cut. The heads were done with a 40 thou. 60 tooth saw running at 1450 RPM in the mill with one pass 150 thou. deep on the horizontal fins and two passes 125 thou. deep on the vertical fins. I kept the blade well lubricated with CRC while cutting. More challenging was cutting the six 15 thou. slots in the oil rings (see photo) but the blade also cut the cast iron like butter (cut dry this time).
I have been working on the Forest Edwards Radial for a bit over two years and the end is at last in sight. Thank again for your interest.

Cheers - enjoy the weekend  Brian  *beer*


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## Brian-in-Oz

xjs said:


> Brian, those heads are magnificent, an art exhibit all on their own. They seem altogether too beautiful to be subjected to hundreds of explosions every minute, all that hammering and banging.
> 
> But, a job's a job, I guess.  And just because you happen to be pretty doesn't exempt you from your calling.
> 
> Thanks for the details on your set-ups...I'm keeping a file on all of these.  Progress on my own motor has slowed a little...I'm traveling on the mainland just now, so it'll be a couple of weeks before I get back to the shop, and even then it'll be intermittent -- a couple of special projects at work are taking way too much of my time.  Never thought I'd be looking forward to Retirement, but now I just see it as potential shop-time and it's taking on much more appeal.
> 
> Finishing up the pistons are next on my list, and the rest of the related assembly, including the interrupted crankshaft.  In odd moments recently I've fabricated a few minor parts, prepared the idler gear assemblies, and made a few more tools for the shop -- including a ball-turner, something I've wanted for a couple of years, and could finally rationalize as being necessary for making the ends of the R5's pushrods.  I'll send pics when I get back to the Islands.
> 
> No, I never did hear back from Hemingway, mysteriously.  I did however follow through on your suggestion of a machine-tapping holder from Shars, and it's a real boon--I've had occasion to use it a couple f times and it makes the world of difference.  Suddenly I'm in control of small taps, realizing I never really was before.  Once again, sir, I am in your debt.
> 
> It's also got me thinking that, when time permits, I'd like to make me a micro drill press, along the lines of the machine designed by the late Jerry Howell.  It's helped me put a higher premium on sensitivity and delicacy.  Sounds stickily New-Age-y, I know, but perhaps I'll end up spending a lot less on broken drills and taps, and less time howling at the ceiling after screwing up a part.
> 
> All best...looking forward to seeing what you come up with along the lines of a valve seat cutter.
> 
> Aloha nui loa,



Thanks Michael - today I started making a tube bender for the inlet - exhaust tubes ( a Hemingway kit I purchased some time ago). I will keep you informed.
Say G'day to my relatives in Philomath Or. and friends in Amarillo Tx. while you are on the "Mainland".

Cheers Brian  *discussion*


----------



## ///

For our friends in the US, let me say that the Aussie 5 cent coin in Brian's photo above is a smidge over 3/4" diameter.

Brian, amazing work mate!
I keep coming back to this thread for inspiration.

As photography is also one of my hobbies, I feel I must commend you for the use of a backdrop and the overall quality of your photo's.


----------



## Lakc

Brian-in-Oz said:


> The heads were done with a 40 thou. 60 tooth saw running at 1450 RPM in the mill with one pass 150 thou. deep on the horizontal fins and two passes 125 thou. deep on the vertical fins.


Brian, what diameter was the saw? How deep were the teeth?


----------



## metalmad

WOW those heads really are a thing of beauty Brian 
Pete


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## gbritnell

Outstanding work on the heads. I too resorted to using a slitting saw for applications like yours. It sure beats the nail biting trying to do it in the lathe. I look forward to the completion. I'm sure it will be as nice as the heads are. 
gbritnell


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Lakc said:


> Brian, what diameter was the saw? How deep were the teeth?



G'day Jeff - saw used on the heads is 3" in dia. and depth of teeth .100" . I purchased it online from an Australian supplier and was advertised as " quality Polish made product not Chinese". It is however branded MAXWELL which is an Indian manufacturer - none the less it performed faultlessly and is still nice and sharp. Heads are 7075 aluminum.
The slitting saw used for oil ring was 2"" dia. X .015 thick with 150 teeth. I could not find one this size from a local supplier and sourced direct from Thurston's in Smithfield RI. They were most helpful.

Cheers Brian Thm:


----------



## jwcnc1911

Brian,

Have you made the cam plate yet?  I was considering this engine just before I got hooked on Stirlings.  I even had a little trouble just modeling it in Solidworks which put me off a little more.  Do you have CAD/CAM software?  I'm interested to see how you make the cam.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

jwcnc1911 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Have you made the cam plate yet?  I was considering this engine just before I got hooked on Stirlings.  I even had a little trouble just modeling it in Solidworks which put me off a little more.  Do you have CAD/CAM software?  I'm interested to see how you make the cam.



G'day JW or rather G'late night for you in Alabama. Yes I have made the cam and have posted a description and some photo's on page 3 of this thread. I do not have any CAD/CAM software or any CNC equipment. If you have any other queries please do not hesitate to ask as I will attempt to answer to the best of my abilities.

Cheers Brian  Thm:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

/// said:


> For our friends in the US, let me say that the Aussie 5 cent coin in Brian's photo above is a smidge over 3/4" diameter.
> 
> Brian, amazing work mate!
> I keep coming back to this thread for inspiration.
> 
> As photography is also one of my hobbies, I feel I must commend you for the use of a backdrop and the overall quality of your photo's.



Thanks for your comments Simon - as you have probably guessed photography is also one of my other interests. I take the photo's in one of those collapsable light boxes with a daylight balanced light bulb each side - gives a nice diffused lighting effect. Stay tuned.

Cheers Brian wEc1


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Today I finished making the tube bender. It is basically a Hemingway kit project but I modified it to give more secure clamping of the tube. Hopefully this will enable bending the brass tube inlet and exhaust pipes without deforming the tube to much. I intend to anneal the brass and fill with Woods Metal before forming. To help with obtaining the correct angles of 45deg. and 115deg I scribed these angles on the former and will keep all informed as whether or not this tool works or finishes up in the scrap metal box.

Cheers Brian :shrug:


----------



## xjs

I'd resolved not to post anything until I had something to show...still haven't finished all five pistons though I'm almost there, having scrapped seven along the way...but just had to compliment you on that bending arrangement, Brian.  Lovely stuff, and I've ordered the same kit from Hemingway. 

I've also ordered a cheapie light box from Amazon. If I ever get these pistons finished I want to be able to photograph them properly, just as if they came from Oz.  

I'm beginning to seriously wonder if i'm actually going to finish this project this year as planned. But you must be looking at a light-up date sometime soon, yes?

m


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

xjs said:


> I'd resolved not to post anything until I had something to show...still haven't finished all five pistons though I'm almost there, having scrapped seven along the way...but just had to compliment you on that bending arrangement, Brian.  Lovely stuff, and I've ordered the same kit from Hemingway.
> 
> I've also ordered a cheapie light box from Amazon. If I ever get these pistons finished I want to be able to photograph them properly, just as if they came from Oz.
> 
> I'm beginning to seriously wonder if i'm actually going to finish this project this year as planned. But you must be looking at a light-up date sometime soon, yes?
> 
> m



Gd,evening Michael - great to see you back on the job. First light up time (hopefully) is still a bit into the future even though there is light at the end of the tunnel I am a slow worker. I would appreciate your opinion on a few issues remaining in the build and how you intend to tackle them but first the bender. In the Hemingway kit plans there are measurements for several formers but none are for a 1/2" radius one to suit the required OD of the tube. I have only made one former of 1/2" radius to do the job and will make them if and when required for any future projects.
1. Valve springs and oil pump plunger spring. I notice you have a spring on you oil pump plunger. Have you managed to source off the shelf springs - had them specially made or wound them yourself? I have not been able to find any off the shelf springs the right specs. in Australia although there is a company in Perth that will apparently make them. I do actually have an unmade spring winder kit (also Hemingway - I think we are keeping them solvent) but am unsure what path to take. What do you reckon?
2. Gaskets - the plans show no gaskets under the barrels or heads and these will be essential. I have ordered some 1/64" gasket material from Omni Models which I hope will be OK but this will have some effect on compression ratio. the plans call for machining an amount off the top of the cylinders to adjust compression ratio on all cylinders to 8.5 to 1. I believe this is necessary anyhow to compensate for the fact that the master rod and link rods in the Edwards Radial are equally spaced where as ideally some compensation needs to be made for the fact that the non articulated master rod has a slightly different TDC than the link rods. ( the math is way beyond me).
What did you plan on re gaskets?
3. Have you had any thoughts on a glo driver - it is likely it may need one especially at low RPM - and lets face it - that's where these things really get the pulse racing?
Well that's probably enough to churn around for now - the only thing I have done since the bender is make the idler shaft and bore and recess the pinion gear. Looking forward to photo's of the pistons taken in the new light box.

Cheers for now - Brian   scratch.gif


----------



## xjs

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Gd,evening Michael - great to see you back on the job. First light up time (hopefully) is still a bit into the future even though there is light at the end of the tunnel I am a slow worker. I would appreciate your opinion on a few issues remaining in the build and how you intend to tackle them but first the bender. In the Hemingway kit plans there are measurements for several formers but none are for a 1/2" radius one to suit the required OD of the tube. I have only made one former of 1/2" radius to do the job and will make them if and when required for any future projects.
> 1. Valve springs and oil pump plunger spring. I notice you have a spring on you oil pump plunger. Have you managed to source off the shelf springs - had them specially made or wound them yourself? I have not been able to find any off the shelf springs the right specs. in Australia although there is a company in Perth that will apparently make them. I do actually have an unmade spring winder kit (also Hemingway - I think we are keeping them solvent) but am unsure what path to take. What do you reckon?
> 2. Gaskets - the plans show no gaskets under the barrels or heads and these will be essential. I have ordered some 1/64" gasket material from Omni Models which I hope will be OK but this will have some effect on compression ratio. the plans call for machining an amount off the top of the cylinders to adjust compression ratio on all cylinders to 8.5 to 1. I believe this is necessary anyhow to compensate for the fact that the master rod and link rods in the Edwards Radial are equally spaced where as ideally some compensation needs to be made for the fact that the non articulated master rod has a slightly different TDC than the link rods. ( the math is way beyond me).
> What did you plan on re gaskets?
> 3. Have you had any thoughts on a glo driver - it is likely it may need one especially at low RPM - and lets face it - that's where these things really get the pulse racing?
> Well that's probably enough to churn around for now - the only thing I have done since the bender is make the idler shaft and bore and recess the pinion gear. Looking forward to photo's of the pistons taken in the new light box.
> 
> Cheers for now - Brian scratch.gif


Yo Brian --

Light box hasn't arrived yet but...Hallelujah!!...I've finally managed to bring five serviceable pistons into the world.  Actually, six, since I've finally learned to make some spares when making multiples, just in case. Such a silly thing to do the same setups over and over again, even if practice does make perfect.  Here they are, photographed the old-fashioned way...




....and, here's the sad little graveyard of piston-wannabes that just somehow stumbled into blind alleys along the way, never to make it out again...



This little pile will certainly come in useful if I ever do a casting project. Meanwhile it just serves to keep me humble.

There have been other little bits and pieces that have gotten done over the last month or so...the master rod...




...some Link Rods to keep it company...



...a few Valve Spring Retainers, just on the off chance I may one day get around to machining some Cylinder Heads...



...an Idler Shaft with some relevant Gears...



and even a Ball Cutter for eventually turning those tricky ends on the Pushrods.  (It's first and only product so far has been the ball on its own handle).




It still seems like an awfully long way to go, but an inch at a time, then another inch...

Brian, the best source I know for springs (and for most hardwatre, come to think of it) is McMaster-Carr. The spring for the Oil Pump, as well as the valve springs, are stock items from them. On gaskets: Yes, I'd assumed that they would be necessary, but hadn't got around to sourcing them yet, or thinking much about how to reconcile that with the compression ratio issue. Haven't even figured how I'm going to even measure the CR...is there a gadget for that, I wonder?

You're also way ahead of me on concerns about the glo-plug at low RPM's, thpough I have been nursing an idea that I'd like to investigate a spark mechanism rather than a glo.  Hemingway's Hall Effect kit seems a possible candidate.  That's as far as I've got.

Got to run...SWMBO calls.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Brian,
In regard to your response in post #118 here is what I did for my master rod/slave rod placement when I was building my radial. Although I had read information on the subject many years ago in one of the issues of SIC I couldn't remember exactly what it said nor did I want to go through boxes of magazines to find it so I did my own layout. 
The layout plan behind my thinking was that each cylinder is equally spaced about the crankcase so they are on 72 degree spacing. The master rod was drawn with the proper length and throw sizing. In picture #1 starting from the right I have the sequence of master rod/slave rod pin positions for each TDC point of the appropriate cylinder. I figured that by rotating the crank 72 degrees (cylinder spacing) and drawing a line through the center of the cylinder until it intersected with the throw circle this should give me the correct pin spacing. Quite naturally the camring is going to be equally spaced relative to TDC  so therefore  each of the cylinders should be at TDC at the same time. 
When I started designing my engine the basics for it were taken from the Morton M5 radial engine. Their pins were equally space about the master rod. Knowing that there should be some compensation I did the layout. As can be seen by the 2 bottom views there is a difference between the 2 spacings. Whether mine is totally correct or not I can't say but it should be much closer than than just equal 72 degree spacing. 
gbritnell 

View attachment ENGINE RADIAL ROD LAYOUT.pdf


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

gbritnell said:


> Hi Brian,
> In regard to your response in post #118 here is what I did for my master rod/slave rod placement when I was building my radial. Although I had read information on the subject many years ago in one of the issues of SIC I couldn't remember exactly what it said nor did I want to go through boxes of magazines to find it so I did my own layout.
> The layout plan behind my thinking was that each cylinder is equally spaced about the crankcase so they are on 72 degree spacing. The master rod was drawn with the proper length and throw sizing. In picture #1 starting from the right I have the sequence of master rod/slave rod pin positions for each TDC point of the appropriate cylinder. I figured that by rotating the crank 72 degrees (cylinder spacing) and drawing a line through the center of the cylinder until it intersected with the throw circle this should give me the correct pin spacing. Quite naturally the camring is going to be equally spaced relative to TDC  so therefore  each of the cylinders should be at TDC at the same time.
> When I started designing my engine the basics for it were taken from the Morton M5 radial engine. Their pins were equally space about the master rod. Knowing that there should be some compensation I did the layout. As can be seen by the 2 bottom views there is a difference between the 2 spacings. Whether mine is totally correct or not I can't say but it should be much closer than than just equal 72 degree spacing.
> gbritnell



Thanks for the info George (have I got that correct?).
They are nice drawings and when I find time I will try to get my head around the rod spacing theory. Forests' solution to adjust the compression ratio by trimming of the top of the cylinder liners must work OK in a small engine as his were work horses that were actually flown in RC planes and not just display engines. What my engine finishes up doing depends on how, when and if it runs. This is my first engine (pretty much first anything) and if nothing else it has forced me to have a much better equipped shop than when I first started. When my Dad passed on he left me his 9" Hercus (Southbend Clone) lathe that he purchased in 1949 and a nice mill which sat around unused in my garage until I retired two years ago. I couldn't bear to see them just sit there so got my act together and built a shop on the end of the garage, started the Edwards Radial and as they say "the rest is history".

Thanks for your interest - Cheers Brian Thm:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael  - you amaze me at the rate of knots that you can turn stuff out and really nice stuff too. I am particularly interested in that ball turner and can you give an idea of its actual size. I bought a ball turner from the Little Machine Shop some time ago and it works fine on balls around 1/4" or so and up but performed poorly on the tiny balls for the end of the pushrods. Maybe I didn't persevere long enough but it seemed that the work speed was to slow at such a small diameter even with the lathe running flat out. Anyhow I shoved them to one side waiting for someone like you with the balls to come up with a solution.

Aloha ahiahi - Brian :bow:


----------



## ozzie46

Great work Michael.

 This is going to be my next project, so I am greatly interested in your trials with the pistons. Are they particularly hard to machine or was it a matter of learning the proper technique?

  Ron


----------



## ///

xjs said:


> Haven't even figured how I'm going to even measure the CR...is there a gadget for that, I wonder?



Hi Michael,
Compression ratio is simply the total volume of the cylinder(+head gasket +combustion chamber etc etc) with the piston at BDC, divided by the total volume with the piston at TDC.

Not sure about non-metric countries, but here in Australia on full size engines the measurement of the volumes is known as "CCing" (seeseeing) and isn't really that difficult, tho it does get tricky when you have high dome pistons that protrude above the block deck at TDC  (tho there are relatively simple work-arounds for this situation)

There should be plenty of guides on the process on the net, i found a basic one here: http://www.diyporting.com/cc.html

Edit: I noticed in that guide the "_Dispenser Pump_" without a graduated scale.... forget this. 
Any decent Chemist (Drug Store) will have accurate Syringes with a scale printed on them in all sorts of sizes down to around 1cc for about 50 cents each.
These are much preferred with great accuracy:


----------



## xjs

Brian-in-Oz said:


> G'day Michael - you amaze me at the rate of knots that you can turn stuff out and really nice stuff too. I am particularly interested in that ball turner and can you give an idea of its actual size. I bought a ball turner from the Little Machine Shop some time ago and it works fine on balls around 1/4" or so and up but performed poorly on the tiny balls for the end of the pushrods. Maybe I didn't persevere long enough but it seemed that the work speed was to slow at such a small diameter even with the lathe running flat out. Anyhow I shoved them to one side waiting for someone like you with the balls to come up with a solution.
> 
> Aloha ahiahi - Brian :bow:


Brian -- The Ball Turner in question is based on Steve Bedair's -- he's the guy with the site dedicated to the domestication of the Chinese 9x20 lathe that so many of we lesser mortals use. It's an interesting site, even if you have a real, grownup lathe. To give an idea of scale, the HSS toolbit in the pic is 1/8" square, and the ball on the end of the handle is 1" dia. I seem to recall that the round brass piece is about 3 1/2" diamter (I'm not in the shop just now so I'm guessing). I have no idea how effectively it will produce the pushrods...I just know that's the plan. Now I'm working on the link rod retainer; once I get it done perhaps I'll give the pushrods a go, and see what happens. stickpoke


----------



## xjs

ozzie46 said:


> Great work Michael.
> 
> This is going to be my next project, so I am greatly interested in your trials with the pistons. Are they particularly hard to machine or was it a matter of learning the proper technique?
> 
> Ron


 
Aloha Ron, and thanks for the encouragement. Please know that the pistons are by no means the most challenging part of this project (unlike, say, the crankshaft or the cam), and that my difficulties with them have been very largely self-inflicted and/or bone-headed. Breaking 0.043" drillbits unnecessarily, drilling holes bigger than the reamer, making a milling cut exactly 90 degrees in the wrong direction, that sort of thing. Nothing a bit more focus couldn't have avoided. 

I'm so glad to hear you're going to take this project on. The world will be a better place with more Edwards Radial 5's in it, not to mention more people who have built one. The process seems to require patience but is enormously satisfying...especially for those of us with so much to learn...and if it were any more fun I'm sure they'd make it illegal.

wEc1


----------



## ozzie46

Thanks Michael.

 Ron


----------



## xjs

/// said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Not sure about non-metric countries, but here in Australia on full size engines the measurement of the volumes is known as "CCing" (seeseeing) and isn't really that difficult, tho it does get tricky when you have high dome pistons that protrude above the block deck at TDC  (tho there are relatively simple work-arounds for this situation)
> 
> :


 
Many thanks, Simon, that's a great help. Takes me back to the days when we'd do something similar to measure combustion chambers on race engines so we could make sure they were all exactly the same size, part of the whole "balancing" ritual.

As has been noted the only corrective adjustment for compression ratio with this motor is the removal of small amounts of material from the top of the cylinder liner. I'm guessing that measuring the combustion chamber as per your recipe, and then measuring the volume of the cylinder at BDC in the same way, would provide the necessary numbers for computing the CR -- after making the adjustment for the pointy top of the piston, of course. The swept volume is still only about a dozen cc's or so, so the same instruments should work?

Love your choice of quote as a signature. I guess "Cheap Chinese" has been my version of "CC-ing." It makes it all possible.

Aloha,


----------



## xjs

xjs said:


> Now I'm working on the link rod retainer; once I get it done perhaps I'll give the pushrods a go, and see what happens. stickpoke


 
Brian -- Unable to report on efficay of ball turner for now -- I discovered that the 3/32" stock for the pushrods is too small for my lathe's 3-jaw; then I discovered that, to make the special collet I'll need to grip the stock, I'll need to do a milling setup that requres a piece of equipment I don't currently have -- a toolmaker's vise small enough to mount to an angle plate while using a slitting saw along the length of the collet to provide the necessary squeezability.

Pant, pant.

So, while waiting for the new vise to make its way out here I've started hacking away at the Cam Ring, which looks to be a challenge. So, even if they choose to deliver the vise by hot-air balloon, there's lots to keep me busy till it gets here.

Cheers! *beer*


----------



## jwcnc1911

Do you have a tap handle you can pur in your lathe chuck to hold the 3/32?  You can buy pin vises very reasonable.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Michael - this is my solution to hold tiny pieces of work that a standard lathe chuck won't grip. I think most lathes have a morse taper in the spindle (mine is #3) so I just use this drill - mill chuck which grips to zero. It has a #2 morse taper so in my case I need to use a #2 to #3 adaptor. I have taken some inspiration from your ball turner and am thinking of adapting the design to hold my die grinder to grind the tiny .125" radius on the hardened rocker buttons and may also work for the balls on the end of the pushrods. My tool post grinder is to bulky to adapt to this delicate task. Making tools to do a job usually takes longer than the actual task at hand.
I will dutifully keep you informed as to any progress or otherwise.

Cheers Brian:wall:


----------



## xjs

jwcnc1911 said:


> Do you have a tap handle you can pur in your lathe chuck to hold the 3/32? You can buy pin vises very reasonable.


 
Both great ideas.  Many thanks.

oh:


----------



## xjs

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Michael - this is my solution to hold tiny pieces of work that a standard lathe chuck won't grip.


 
Thanks, Brian. This has to be my biggest "Duh!" moment for a while, but it's worth it just to see another great pic. As I mentioned I've started carving my Cam Ring , but I'll give this a shot when I get through the turning and boring. 

Also, I'll get a few pin vises on order...can't imagine how (or why) I've gotten by without any so far.

Glad my ball-turner proved muse-worthy, even if it hasn't actually produced anything yet.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'd evening Michael and all - after taking inspiration from Michaels ball turner I have come up with this contraption to enable (I hope) to grind the .125" radius on the hardened steel rocker buttons. The principle is the same as for the ball turner but substitutes an air die grinder in place of a cutting tool. My die grinder has a female threaded section in the front where a cover normally fits so I was able to make a threaded holder to screw the die grinder on to.  The turntable body fits in place of the compound slide on my Hercus (Southbend clone) lathe and will accomodate a ball diameter up to 2 inches however I doubt I will ever want to grind a ball this large. The knurled pin can lock the turntable square to the chuck so it can also be used for cutting off, grooving and facing etc.  I only finished making it today and as yet not had a chance to try it - I intend to do that tomorrow and will report as to the success or otherwise and post a picture of the results.
This turned out to be a lot of work to make a tool to manufacture such a small part but I could think of no other way to do it.

Cheers Brian - will report back soon   :shrug:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael and all - today I turned up a rocker button from silver steel (drill rod), hardened it and put the ball grinder to the test. It looks like it will do the job even though it doesn't "sizzle" like the tool post or flat bed grinder - a problem when working so close to center with such a small radius which reduces work and grinder effective speed. The lathe was run in opposite direction to the grinder. Having gone to all this trouble and looking at the finished item I wonder whether a bit of careful work with a fine file to produce the radius then polish, harden and polish again wouldn't produce a satisfactory item. None the less I am happy with the results and will go ahead and grind up the remaining nine and press fit them to the rockers. 
The actual size of the rocker button is 1/4" long and 1/8" in dia. - see photo.

Cheers Brian  :wall:


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## xjs

Aloha Brian and Company --

Didn't mean almost the whole month of July to slip by without posting, but life's been getting in the way a bit. A few stolen hours here and there, though, have allowed the Quest to inch forward, and I'm pleased to report that the Cam Ring is now a quadra-lobed reality:





The prospect of making this cam ring was the whole reason for getting into this thread in the first place, and I still don't think I'd have been able to pull it off without all the help and advice. It's been a great experience, though, and I've learned a lot. 23 hours from start to finish, one little nibble at a time, but here it is. And, here it is from the other side:





The oil pump cam should be made and shrunk-fit in place in the next few days, and then I'm not sure what gets tackled next. I'm itching to get my hands on those heads, but should probably get the valve train out of the way first.

Brian, that setup you have for grinding those teeny-weeny rocker buttons is amazing, and produces a beautiful product. I've been trying to think of other small hardened thingies with hemispherical ends that need making by the dozen so you could get some more use out of it...if any occur to me, I'll pass them along. And oh yes, the tube-bending kit arrived from Hemingway a little while back. Looks like fun. Perhaps I'll take a break from The Motor to make a special tool or two.

All best,


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,
first congratulations on the cam Michael - looks really great and it wasn't as bad actually doing it as thinking about it was it? Also looks like your light box is in action - great photo's. The funny thing about these projects is that some things that look like they are going to be difficult run smoothly while others that appear to be simple turn out to be problematic - e.g. those damn pesky little rocker buttons.
It turned out that my radius grinder didn't really work as planned once I started to grind more buttons. Problem was that working so close to the centre axis and with low actual cutting speed despite 25,000 RPM the stone wore very quickly and started producing inconsistent radii that became more cone shaped than a nice smooth curvature. So - back to the drawing board and the end result was to resort to that ancient hand held tool called a file. This turned out to be surprisingly successful with very little effort - filed hardened and polished with the finished result in the photo below. The saving grace is that the tool may be versatile enough to find some use in future projects.
I did have more immediate success though with the rocker pins and a spot cutter to recess the valve seat area prior to cutting the actual valve seats.
The hardened 1" X 1/8" dowel pins were cut to length and grooved with a 1" X .012" diamond coated disc mounted on my tool post grinder running at 20,000 RPM - cut through them like butter and the circlips fit into the .004" deep grooves a treat.
I have also made a tool to spot face the valve seat area to make it flat before cutting the valve seats. The cutter itself is actually made from grinding down a cutter from a household tap (faucet for our American friends) reseating kit. I have so far only cut a trial in my sacrificial head but it cut by hand with very little effort but this time will make no claims of success until all ten seats are cut. I still haven't decided how to actually make the valve seat cutter but will keep information flowing in this area.
Sorry! this post seems to have become a bit long winded so will terminate for now.
Cheers Michael and all - take care - Brian :toilet::shrug:Thm:


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## Lakc

Just for comparison, here is a square Edwards cylinder with O1 steel valve seat inserts.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Jeff - thanks for your interest. I am fascinated as to the reason for the square adaption of the Edwards head design. Have you used the basic design on  a different engine or one of your own design? I also considered inserts but in the end decided to run with aluminium valve seats as per the Edwards specs. but incorporate phosphor bronze guides.
Cheers Brian. ???


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## Lakc

The valve seats were not called out real well in the original drawings, so I drew it in cad and came up with that. Used the square cylinder heads on an engine of my own design. 
Square made a lot of things easier in the workholding and machining department. I believe the 6061 square stock was a little cheaper then the larger round stock as well.


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> ... today I turned up a rocker button from silver steel (drill rod), hardened it and put the ball grinder to the test.


 
Hi! Nice work! I'm glad to see your real life parts because I've always wondered about these particular ones justlooking at the PDF plans. 

- the rocker has a short & long side. Looks like the rocker button insert goes to the long arm side & valve adjusting insert to the short side, correct?

- is the short (only) side tapped 4-40 because thats where the gap adjustment is made? (ie. and the button is fixed)

- on long side of rocker, hole dia = 0.089" vs.> button OD of 0.093. So how are these parts mated?

- dumb question, but why does the rocker button need to be a ball end vs. just rounded off? I assume its rocking in the same angle plane as the valve? So if itwas just rounded off (vs. spherical) wouldnt a line contact against the valve be better than point contact for wear etc? Maybe its threaded in too, but I dont see that detail.

Thanks, your progress is awesome!


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

petertha said:


> Hi! Nice work! I'm glad to see your real life parts because I've always wondered about these particular ones justlooking at the PDF plans.
> 
> - the rocker has a short & long side. Looks like the rocker button insert goes to the long arm side & valve adjusting insert to the short side, correct?
> 
> - is the short (only) side tapped 4-40 because thats where the gap adjustment is made? (ie. and the button is fixed)
> 
> - on long side of rocker, hole dia = 0.089" vs.> button OD of 0.093. So how are these parts mated?
> 
> - dumb question, but why does the rocker button need to be a ball end vs. just rounded off? I assume its rocking in the same angle plane as the valve? So if itwas just rounded off (vs. spherical) wouldnt a line contact against the valve be better than point contact for wear etc? Maybe its threaded in too, but I dont see that detail.
> 
> Thanks, your progress is awesome!



G'day there in Calgary and thank you for your interest in my project. I will try to give a coherent answer in order of your questions.

The answer to your first question is simple - yes you are correct!

Question two is also easy as you are correct again. If you look at my photo on the previous page of rockers mounted on a head you will notice no adjuster is fitted. I have the adjusting screws ready and are using Allen cap screws rather than the slot screw shown in the plans as I think they look neater and are less prone to wear (i.e a socket compared to a slot) but am waiting for some .080" spherical diamond burs to arrive to grind the bottom of the socket the pushrod locates in.

Question three is not dumb but very relevant. The photo of the rocker button you are referring to was my first test of the ball grinder and while it ground one button OK if quite rounded it was not really satisfactory when I started a production line because of rapid wear on the grind stone. (see explanations in previous posts). In the end I just finished up making them by hand filing and hardening and polishing and you will notice that the curvature is less severe than in the first example. The actual movement or "sliding" of the button across the top of the valve stem is tiny and I doubt the curvature is critical as long as it is enough to stop the effect of raising onto an "edge". As to the fit of the buttons into the rockers they are an interference force fit. I must admit I thought the .004" difference a bit severe but I tried a test button into a scrap bit of 7075 and it pressed in nicely so that is how I did them all with no problems. Obviously Mr Edwards knew what he was doing.

Thank you for your comments and it's nice to hear from a fellow colonial.

Cheers Brian   Thm:


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## petertha

Thanks for the reply. Re the profile, maybe this sketch will clarify. You made your part with a ball type end. I was wondering if the radius could be profiled, but cut in a 2D plane. The ball would make a point contact on the valve stem as it slides. The 2D profile would make a line contact. 

Of course, the 2D radius button only works right if its plane was set absolutley in line with the rocker pivot plane. And thats what got me wondering about how it was retained in the rocker which you answered. But now that I look at the drawing more close, I think the little line accross can only mean 'ball'.

'colonial', thats funny. Yah, I've been called worse, Eh?


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all,
I would not have known this 45deg. cutter existed if I had not stumbled across a post by RWO. I managed to source one from a gun smith tool supplier here in Australia and it arrived yesterday after a two week wait (my reason for not doing much recently). Today I made a pilot guide 1/8" for the valve guides and 3/16" fit into the cutter and a knurled knob (the cutter has a 1/4 X 20 thread on the end to attach a knob or handle) to turn it with and anxiously fitted it to my spare "sacrificial head" and cut a trial valve seat. 
To my great relief it worked beautifully and cut a very nice seat with not a trace of "chatter" and requiring little pressure and effort to cut.Tomorrow I will cut the seats in my five heads. 
The actual diameter of this cutter is 1/2" and I had to grind down the nose diameter to a little over .400" using my tool post grinder on the lathe so that it would fit into the valve seat recess.
Personally I think this tool is a godsend for model engineers wanting to cut valve seats from around 1/4" to 1/2" providing they can grind the nose if necessary for their application.

Thanks RWO  :bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow: 

Cheers all  Thm:


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## Brian Rupnow

Brian in Oz--Regarding the 45* valve seat cutter you show in the previous post---which you found in a post by RWO--was that a purchased piece of tooling or a home made piece. Could you please tell me a bit more about it.---Brian Rupnow


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## Brian-in-Oz

Brian Rupnow said:


> Brian in Oz--Regarding the 45* valve seat cutter you show in the previous post---which you found in a post by RWO--was that a purchased piece of tooling or a home made piece. Could you please tell me a bit more about it.---Brian Rupnow



Hi Brian - Yes it is a purchased cutter. It is 2" long, 1/2" in diameter with a 3/16" pilot hole in the cutter end and a 1/4" X 20 thread on the other end to attach a handle. It is available from gunsmith tool suppliers and is actually designed to cut a 45deg. recess in the muzzle of rifles to protect the muzzle from damage if the end of the barrel is knocked. I purchased mine here http://www.shooters.com.au/ and the cost was A$44.05 plus postage. The brand is PTG and the part # 519840. It is very nicely made and nice and sharp and as it is designed to cut barrel steel it should have a long life when used in model engineering to cut valve seats. To suit my need I had to grind the cutter end to a smaller diameter as can be seen in the photo.
I hope this info. is helpful - if you need to know more please ask.

Cheers Brian to Brian *discussion*


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Brian--That's good information to have. I have a couple which I built myself, based on a design by George Britnel, and they work amazingly well. I wasn't aware that they were an item which could be purchased. What I have found, after building half a dozen small i.c. engines now, is that it is better to NOT cut the seats at 45* in the lathe. I have much better results if I drill and ream the valve stem guide holes in the engine head, and then cut the seats by hand, using the valve seat cutting tool with a guide that is a "good sliding fit" in the valve guide hole. I keep my seats to .010" to .015" wide x 45*, and cut the valve faces at a 92* included angle, then lap them into the seats with #400 grit, then #600 grit lapping paste.---Brian Rupnow


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> It is very nicely made and nice and sharp and as it is designed to cut barrel steel it should have a long life when used in model engineering to cut valve seats.


 
Nice tool. 

- are your valve seats the stock aluminum head, or did you modify with some sort of inserted hard seat?

- did you initially leave the valve hole unfinished (meaning no attempt at 45 deg pre-chamfer, just the passage hole edge) so the entire seating action/ depth is done with the tool? Or is this more to dress an existing chamfer to the tool 45 deg angle?


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## Brian-in-Oz

petertha said:


> Nice tool.
> 
> - are your valve seats the stock aluminum head, or did you modify with some sort of inserted hard seat?
> 
> - did you initially leave the valve hole unfinished (meaning no attempt at 45 deg pre-chamfer, just the passage hole edge) so the entire seating action/ depth is done with the tool? Or is this more to dress an existing chamfer to the tool 45 deg angle?



Hi Petertha - valve seats are cut directly into 7075 aluminum head as per Forest Edwards plans.
Prior to cutting the valve seats I cut a recess deep enough to square up the seating area otherwise due to the curvature of the conical combustion chamber the valve seats would not have a consistent width around their perimeter. If you go to the previous page you will see how I did this and the tool I made to do it with. I have now cut all the valve seats and included a photo to try to show the result.

Cheers Brian;D


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day all - it suddenly dawned on me that I was actually starting to put some bits together. I wanted to check that the gear assembly from crankshaft to idler gear and cam gear was all in alignment and with no binding but did not want to press fit the front bearing in until final assembly so made a temporary brass bearing for this purpose. Everything rotates beautifully - would not know any gears were involved so I am very pleased with that. I still have to organise the valve springs - I am going to have a go at making them - if that doesn't work I have found a spring manufacturer who will make them and then after assembling the engine proper will have a go at the the inlet and exhaust tubes.
I can see hours and hours of work there.
This will be my last post for a few weeks as I am taking a bit of break before getting into those springs and tubes.

How is your project coming along Michael?  

Cheers all.*beer*


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## xjs

Aloha y'all --

Brian, that motor of yours gets more beautiful with each posting, a work of art from rocker to shining rocker. If ever a group of exceptionally talented engineers decided to get together and start their own country, that last picture could be their flag. 

My motor, on the other hand, has been a little more arrested in its development. You may recall my last posting included a picture of a cam ring, all gleaming and glistening and perfect. Oh, how proud I was! All I had left to do was to shrink-fit the oil-pump cam and Bob would be your uncle. Well, fact is, I'd never shrunk-fit anything before, and it turned out not to be nearly as easy as I thought. In fact, I screwed it up royally. I heated the cam, slipped it onto the cam-ring boss, and...it stuck halfway down. No problem, I thought...I'll just add a little heat...a little pressure...then a little more heat, a little more pressure...all blissfully ignorant of the simple fact that now the boss is expanding just as much as the oil cam, receiving equal treatment from the blowtorch and is of course jammed on tight and jamming on more tightly evry second. Finally, in all the excitement of the moment, sufficient heat and pressure has been applied that, although the oil pump cam hasn't moved a micron, this burnt and bent piece of wreckage is the result: 





Sad, but educational in several ways. 

First, some fundamental laws of physics are indelibly impressed on memory, and future shrink-fitting tasks are given a much greater chance of success.

Second, the difference between frustration (like when you scratch a surface, or turn a few too-many thou off a billet) and !!!RAGE!!! (like when you do something as dumb as this to an otherwise-perfect part) becomes really apparent. 

Frustration makes you say a few naughty words, sometimes quite loudly. :rant: 

!!!RAGE!!!, by contrast, makes you go all quiet...you just stand there, staring at the carnage disbelievingly, amazed that that you ever had the audacity to even touch a machine tool in the first place.  If there's music playing somewhere you turn it off, so you can be alone with your trembling thoughts. You know that any move you make has to be very carefully considered, especially in a room with so many sharp and pointy edges. Finally you very carefully pick up your keys, turn out the lights, and leave. You drive home very slowly.

Then, if you've made it this far, you sit down in front of the computer and order up some more material so that, a few weeks later, you have not one but two cam rings...one Hyde, one Jekyll:





You find that you've learned how to properly shrink-fit the oil-pump cam:





Then you think back to the last time this happened...remember the Great Crankshaft Screwup, when a tap got snapped in an almost-completed crankshaft, reducing it immediately to paperweight status? Well, I got as far as ordering new material, but didn't take it any further...in fact, the Cam Ring was taken on for the sake of corrective therapy as much as anything else. Well, the final lesson of the Parable of the Second Cam Ring proved strong enough for a new chunk of 4350 to be hacked away at, this time with much better results:








It turns out the new crankshaft even fits where it's supposed to, and has made clear that the next few projects all have to do with finishing out the "bottom end" of this motor:





So after getting all the spacers and gears running right, it'll be all about making the cylinder liners and piston rings (and, never having machined cast iron before, I'm assured of lots more fun and games) and getting pistons and rods and bearings all working and dancing in harmony. After which I can FINALLY get around to the business of the heads and valve train.

Something else I've learned, by the way, is the importance of having another project going along at the same time, something to turn to at times of great exasperation, or simply while waiting for materials to arrive; I've started slowly building a micro drill press, which I've begun to realize is a very desirable thing to have around for the drilling of anything less than 1/16". This one's based on a design by Jerry Howell. Not in a real hurry for it, but it's a fun project to turn to when confronted by what seems for the moment to be a brick wall with the Radial 5. (And they're never really brick walls of course, just thickets to be scambled through). 

But eventually, down this road somewhere, I'm still convinced, there's a 5-cylinder radial, and it'll be a runner, and a source of great pride and joy.

Thanks, Brian, for your continued inspiration.

Michael T


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## necchiom

Hello Michael and all of you folks. Unfortunately I cannot find any plans, or useful infos on the web, concerning ignition(s) and carb for the Edwards Radial 5. Suggestions? Regards - Moshe


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Moshe,

As far as I know Forest Edwards only made his plans for a glo ignition engine available to the public forum although he made spark ignition versions. Hall effect ignition kits are available from the likes of Hemingway Kits in the UK. 
I purchased my carby from Gary Conley at Conley Precision Engineering. I described the engine I was building and he made a recommendation. Unfortunately I am currently on vacation in Queensland and don't have it in front of me to give you the model number. Gary Conley owns Perry  Carburettors and he is a most helpful guy. If you like I can post the model number when I return home in 2 weeks. Are you building or plan to build an engine ?

Cheers Brian. Thm:


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## Brian-in-Oz

Michael - I can't believe how you felt when that cam ring jammed (well actually I can as we've all "been there - done that".) You are an inspiration to all model engineers in the way you treat it as a learning experience and just get on with it and make a new piece. You also have a wonderfully poetic way with words that make your descriptions so entertaining. I am afraid mine seem to come out a bit clinical by contrast - guess that why I failed English class - all I was interested in was hands on craft classes. That new cam compete with oil pump cam attached looks just great. I am currently doing this post on my wife's iPad as we are on vacation visiting family in Queensland - about two thousand miles closer to you than normal so this post should get to you a bit quicker. 
You mentioned getting into the cast iron cylinder liners soon - I wouldn't worry to much about this as In my opinion cast iron is quite nice to machine apart from the fact it can generate a bit of a mess. Machine it dry as the graphite in it provides lubrication. A while ago I machined up a chuck back plate and couldn't believe the amount of black dust that had settled on everything in the shop.
I recently purchased a three ton arbor press for the press fits required on the Edwards and it was just perfect for fitting the liners to the barrels. The fit tolerances provided in the plans seem just right as the amount of force required to get the cylinders into the barrels felt just right. When I get back home I'll have a go at making some valve springs.

Keep up the good work - Cheers Brian  :toilet: then Thm:


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## xjs

Thanks, Brian, for your kind words about my words.  Words, actually, are how I make my living, but machining these engines is how I know I'm here from day to day.  Once you've made a part, right or wrong, it's going to be just as right or wrong the next day. Words are more flexible, and not so trustworthy.  A piece of metal can't be argued back into a different shape after the deed is done.  It's not forgiving, and so totally rewarding. 

Sorry to get all metaphysical, but it's why I love this hobby.

I'm getting set to make those cylinder liners, but might make a little more progress on that little drill press first. 

Enjoy Queensland. I hope to see it one day. 

Best,

m


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## LADmachining

I am amazed at how this thread that I started all that time ago has progressed.  Following Michael and Brian's progress has been a great way to spend a couple of hours, and has prompted me to try and get out to the shop and make some more progress...    You have both made a great job of your respective builds. Thm:

Since my last post, I have had some other long term projects that have been taking up my time - and she is three years old now, and very curious about all of the strange machines in 'Daddy's garage'. 

I have managed to complete some more of the radial since the last photos were posted. The crankshaft and cam drive gearing are now complete, plus odds and ends like collets and valve keepers.  Still a lot of the small parts left to complete, which makes the '% complete' figure on my build spreadsheet remain annoyingly on the wrong side of  50%  I must get my finger out and get the engine finished.  I started it in March 2004.  Is nearly 10 years the longest anyone has taken to build an Edward's Radial, I wonder?


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Anthony and a big welcome back to your forum.

It was your original postings that inspired me to have a go at building an Edwards Radial in the first place. I often wondered if you had completed your engine and had it running but now know you had the best reason of all to put it on hold for a while. I could not have contemplated a project like this when my kids were little.
I am sure everyone visiting the forum looks forward to hearing more about your build as you get back into it. I know Michael and myself certainly will.

Cheers for now.  wEc1 BACK


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## xjs

Thanks, Anthony, for letting us use your thread for so long! I'm sooo glad you're back...all this time I've had the vague feeling of camping out in someone else's living room.  

Along with Brian I have you to thank for getting me started on the Radial Trail.  Well, mostly anyway.  Truth is I originally built my little shop a couple of years ago to help me with a robotics project I had going on, and then happened to build a couple of small motors (one steam, one Stirling) as a way of developing my machining chops, and then just happened to spend a couple of stray hours last December in the Air & Space Museum in D.C.  While my wife was off inspecting the uniforms of the dashing airmen of WW's I & II, I found myself pulled toward the engines of the twenties thru the forties, especially the radials. A week later, at a dinner party, a chance conversation with a garage-owning friend led me to believe that I hadn't built a REAL  engine until I'd built an I.C. engine.  Later that night I googled "model radial engines", and at about four a.m. found your thread.  I think you had me with that first picture, the one of the pile of raw stock, waiting to become an engine.  If not there, then your description of how you machined your heads.  

Anyway I've barely had a discretionary moment since that hasn't been radially-oriented, for which I thank you.  (My wife, not so much).

Looking forward to new pictures.

Warmest aloha,

m


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## xjs

Greetings Comrades --

Time to send up a flare lest anyone think I'd moved on to macramé.

Slow but definite progress on the old Radial. Like you, Brian, I was well pleased with the way the whole gear train works -- just enough backlash to let my fingers know that things aren't packed in too tightly, and a softly satisfying whirr from inside the cam cover when a prop is mounted and spun. Of course, there aren't any finicky pistons or link rods to get in the way yet. Here are pics of the bottom end assembly from front and from back, sans prop, sans rear cover, sans cylinders, sans everything.








Day job's been hell lately, and such shop time as there's been has gone mainly into the micro-drill-press project (maybe I'll start another thread for that one) but the cast iron for the cylinder liners and rings has just arrived and so it might be time to start making a mess. Certainly, it's an excuse to put off laundering my shop coat, there's just no point with all that cast iron dust in its future.

Aloha,

m


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## xjs

Cylinder liners are done and luvly. The rings are more of a challenge, but once I get the hang of parting them off at the right thickness -- the first few have been four or five thou too fat -- I'll be sure to make at least a double quantity for spares...they just seem so fragile. 

Meanwhile, Brian, I confess to covetous thoughts concerning your surface grinder. It just seems it would be so much easier to make 'em fat and then slap 'em onto that magnetic chuck for a quick shave to size...

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,

Unfortunately I have not done any shop time for nearly two months having been away for 1 month and on returning home seem to have had things on and some jobs to do around the house. The good news is they are completed (for now) and I will be back in the shop in the next few days
 having a go at making some valve springs.
I am really impressed with your prop boss Michael, it looks fantastic and no spinning off a prop there. Just out of interest I am thinking of drilling and tapping some holes in the front of the cam cover and making a puller to suit in case of the need to dismantle at some stage as there is not much to grip on the cam cover. With the front bearing being an interference fit in the cover and onto the crankshaft it would be a pity to damage it while try trying to dismantle.
Unfortunately I did not take many photo's when making the piston rings but I was able to part them off accurately with a 40 thou. parting tool on the old Hercus (read Southbend). I did find a photo of parting the oil rings however.
I did not have my surface grinder when I made the rings but I think it would a good way to make them as you suggested. It would be easy to do them in a batch and have a lovely finish on the flats. I also made a few spares.
I will keep information flowing as to how I get on with the valve springs. The owner of a local engineering shop has taken an interest in the radial project and is using it to inspire his apprentices. He also has a heat treatment oven and has offered it to me to use to heat treat the springs.

Cheers Brian -  Thm:


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day all, 
            on Sat evening I was at a function and seated opposite me was a gentleman who has a business located at our local airfield. Naturally we started talking aircraft and he informed me there was a 1938 Stinson Reliant in a hanger at the field that had limped in with engine trouble five months ago.
Why don't you come out for a look he said. Nah! I said, not interested can we go now. Good idea he said - but I'm not sure I could afford the divorce settlement he said so why don't you come out Monday. So that's what I did today.
Apparently one cylinder overheated and the motor started spewing oil on the windscreen and misfiring and was lucky to get down in one piece.
This particular Reliant is fitted with a 7 cylinder Wright R760 radial and the engine had to be shipped to the USA for repair. Other versions were also fitted with a Lycoming radial. It is due to be fired up shortly and they are going to let me know so I can go out to the airfield and get high on the radial sound.
I am back into my own Edwards Radial and have successfully made one valve spring but I want to heat treat it before making them all just to be sure all is OK. I will post some pictures when complete.
Meanwhile enjoy the Stinson Reliant Radial pictures.

Cheers Brian  :bow:


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## xjs

Greetings Brian and each --

That's quite an exotic visitor you have there, Brian. I'm sorry it got sick, but most happy it got down safely. Can I assume they just shipped the faulty cylinder off for repair, or did they send the whole engine? Quite a Fed-Ex bill if that's the case.

Since last we spoke I think I got the knack of making those piston rings -- here's a pic of the first faultless five, and hoping to knock out twenty or so by the end of the week.



Then, onward to the oil rings (already got a 0.015" slitting saw standing by). After that I'll probably go back and twiddle with my micro-drill-press project a little more before the New Year.

I'm most interested in your valve springs...did it turn out that nothing available commercially was suitable? 

Brian, I share your frustration of never having enough shop time. I just got back from a weeklong business trip, and in another three weeks SWMBO and I will be off on our holiday for this year, which will probably last till Christmas. So, any dreams I may once have had about firing up my radial to compete with the firecrackers on New Year's Eve are destined for dust.

No matter. I may not have a radial after a year's work, but I do think I'm a better machinist.

Cheers all...


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,

I'm glad those rings are working out OK now - they look great. 
With regards to that Wright Radial I believe the whole engine was shipped back to the States - and yes it would have been a tidy FedEx freight bill. With regards to my valve springs I scoured McMaster-Carr and other websites and couldn't find any at the exact dimensions. In the end I decided to have a go and make them myself. I wound them out of piano wire as per plan on a mandrel in the lathe and set the travel at 10 threads per inch to correctly space the coils. A bit of experimentation was required to get the mandrel diameter right as the spring expanded when the winding pressure was released but all in all they weren't that difficult to make. They were then wrapped in steel wool and then parcelled up with alfoil and heated at 500deg.F for 30 minutes in an oven and then allowed to cool.
I have now assembled all the heads and the valve spring tension feels how I think it should and all the valves appear to be sealing fine. I guess the truth will  appear at start up.
See below a bunch of valve springs (the slightly smaller ones are for the oil pump and I made a few spares) and a completed head.

Cheers for now - Brian  :hDe:


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> They were then wrapped in steel wool and then parcelled up with alfoil and heated at 500deg.F for 30 minutes in an oven and then allowed to cool.



Nice springs. Dumb question but what is role of the steel wool? Do the basic dimensions of the spring change much after heating cycle? I assume this is to stress relieve from the coil winding operation?


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## necchiom

Hi Brian. One more question about your awesome home-made springs: any special reason because you winded them left hand? Cheers; Moshe.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha, - I remembered reading this somewhere in an article on making small springs and I believe the idea of the steel wool is to provide even heat around the springs and also retain some heat and help slow down the cooling  process.
You are correct in assuming that the heat treatment process is to relieve stress induced by winding. Piano wire does reduce slightly in size during heat treatment. I wound the springs 15 thou. oversize ID and they finished up pretty much right on the .310 thou. as stipulated in the plans. This was more good luck than good engineering as the only way to come up with what you want is by trial and error.
There is an excellent article on making all sorts of springs here.
http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/springs.pdf

Cheers Brian


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Moshe - the reason I wound the springs left handed was so that the jig I made to feed the wire and maintain tension moved away from the lathe chuck thus avoiding the chance of a nasty coming together. Right or left hand compression springs will perform the same. (this does not apply to all springs though). - see link in above post.
Below is a photo of the jig I used - pretty simple.

Cheers Brian


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all - I spent most of today closeted in the shop making some dies to punch out some head gaskets. I made an outer die to cut the outside diameter and an inner die that slips inside of the outer die to cut the inner diameter. An arbor press provided the required force to cut the 1/64" gasket material. I machined a piece of nylon for the dies to press against to lessen the chance of damaging the cutting edges. 
The outer die is used first and this leaves a wad of gasket material inside then slip in the inner die and cut out the centre wad - and presto - a nice neat gasket and some spares.

Cheers Brian - :idea:


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> An arbor press provided the required force to cut the 1/64" gasket material.



 Hi Brian

 - what is the gasket material you have chosen?

  - I take it you are using this gasket more as a seal vs. a CR shim & they will be identical across all cylinders?

 - I saw on the Edwards drawings that he leaves the cylinder liner top flange a fixed dimension (0.175") with a footnote "_note at assembly check compression ratio & adjust to 8.5:1 by trimming top of liner as needed_". This finally clicked with me because the Edwards has uncompensated (equal 72 deg) radial divisions for its link rods, so this must be the tweak to match unequal CR's across all cylinders. What I haven't quite figured out is how one would go about doing that with conic topped pistons. Angle the head & fill-up fluid to the glow plug flange, drain & measure cc's maybe? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this because it always puzzled me.

 thx/Peter


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## xjs

Gobsmacked. Simply gobsmacked. 

Some time, in a thousand years or so, once I've managed to bring some cylinder heads like yours into being, I shall refer back to this example of how Proper head gaskets should be made, so they'll have something comfy to sit upon. 

Well done that man. 

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Peter - the gasket material I got from Omni Models described as a heat resistant rubberised compound and I am using it hopefully to provide a perfect seal between barrel and head.
There are plenty of online tools to help calculate compression ratio.
On the Edwards The piston dome and combustion chamber have the same geometry except for a small 20 thou. step under the conical combustion chamber. A compression ratio calculator takes into account the total volume of the combustion chamber, the volume of the piston cone and the slight cavity under the gloplug can be added in if you want to be absolutely accurate. All volume calculations are either the volume of a cone or a cylinder - plenty of online calculators to help with as well. The thickness of the head gasket (compressed) is also taken into account. Of course bore and stroke are also entered.
By entering a figure for the piston edge to deck level (top of cylinder) a compression ratio will be calculated. It is easy enough to "fiddle" with this number to arrive at the desired compression ratio - in the Edwards case 8.5 to 1. 
Once the piston edge to deck measurement is known each cylinder can be measured at TDC from the top of the piston cone to the top of the deck (barrel)
and this measurement is then deducted from 172 thou. which is the height of the piston cone. For example if 60 thou. of the piston was above the barrel the piston to deck measurement would be 112 thou. and if the calculated piston to deck clearance was say 80 thou. an amount of 32 thou. would need to be machined from the top of the barrel. In fact it looks like an 80 thou. piston to deck clearance will be around the mark.
Repeat procedure for the  other four cylinders to obtain an even compression ratio on all cylinders.
I don't know if I have explained this very well but have a look here and have a play with the compression ratio calculator as I think this will be a big help.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

Cheers Brian    :wall:


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> The piston dome and combustion chamber have the same geometry...


 
Ah, of course. The matching domed piston/chamber profiles simply things. Ive made this out to be more complicated than need be. Carry on! 

Its interesting how different designers went about addressing this issue. Some tweak the link rod geometry on the master rod & try & keep the cylinder lengths the same. Other engines reduce the combustion bowl footprint over the piston (to raise CR). The Edwards piston dome within a dome is yet another method. Maybe other advantage is lining up with valve action axis without intefering with (flat) piston top.


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael/Peter and all,

the closer I have got to assembly the more I became worried about disassembly particularly the cam cover as this is bound to be required sooner or later. The cam cover has a bearing in the front that is an interference fit in the cam cover and onto the crankshaft and I could see no way of getting it off again without the risk of damaging it. If the crankshaft was pressed out of the engine from the front an interference fit on three other bearings comes into play - two on the cam disc and the rear crank bearing.  
I have spent the day coming up with a solution - drill and tap the front flange of the cam cover and make a puller that bolts on and and the pointed end of the bolt presses into the centre drilled recess on the end of the crankshaft applying (hopefully) enough force to pull the cam cover with bearing off of the crankshaft.
I think the photo's are probably self explanatory.
The next job is to assemble crank, rods, barrels and pistons (without rings at this stage) and measure piston to deck height and machine the tops of the barrels as required to give an equal compression ratio of 8.5 to 1 on all five cylinders. I will report as to how this process pans out.
I am looking forward to seeing your mini drill press Michael - that should be a real handy bit of kit. A lot less "clunky" than using the mill or a large drill press when you are working on mostly small parts.

Cheers Brian   :idea:


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## xjs

That's a peach of a puller, Brian, and I think I need to come up with an excuse to make one. It hadn't occurred to me before...I've had the cam cover and bearings and crankshaft assembled and disassembled a few times now (great therapy) without incident...though now I've begun to wonder if, after a few thousand air miles have been clocked, things might get a bit stickier. And the thought of having to pry this particular motor apart with a hammer and screwdriver makes me come over all wobbly.

Meanwhile, I'm happy to report a full double-stock of compression rings and oil rings. Many more than I hope I'll ever need. (Although a proper Hoard of the Rings, perhaps?) They were a great deal of fun to make, but I'll be happy not to be dealing with cast iron for a while. You were right...it's a delight to machine, but the dust gets everywhere.

That success seemed to merit a couple of hours working on my little Howell drill press as a reward. (Funny how as you get older your guilty pleasures get less, well, dramatic...). Here's a pic of progress so far:





Sorry about the glare, the pic was taken as a hurried afterthought as I was running to be somewhere else. 

That mild steel base ( about an inch thick) contains an electromagnet (complete now except for the winding), and is the reason for the brass sleeve in the middle. So I'll finally have my very own magnetic chuck. And I just took delivery of an exquisite little Albrecht drill chuck...0"-1/16"...for the business end. Beautiful thing.

Just a couple more days left before we take off for a drinking and dancing interlude over on the Other Side, so the Radial will be tucked up for a little while.

All best everyone...

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi everyone - have a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous 2014 littered with new engine projects.
The Edwards Radial is assembled with only the inlets and exhausts to do.
All appears OK and will update in the New Year.

Peace and Goodwill - Brian *beer*


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## Swifty

Hi Brian, I have been quietly following along, the build is outstanding. I already seem to have enough projects to fill up next year, anyhow, Merry Christmas and have a great New Year. I am looking forward to more posts in the new year.

Paul.


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## xjs

All the best to you and yours for the holidays, Brian, and to all model engine fans everywhere!!

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all - Happy New Year and good modelling in 2014.

I only got back into the workshop a couple of days ago after the Xmas - New Year festivities and decided to tackle the dreaded brass tube bending required for the exhausts and inlets. I decided to do the exhausts first to practice on as they require a simple half inch radius right angle bend where as the inlet tubes require two precise bends to fit between the heads and inlet manifold. I followed some instructions found on the net and have to admit that I am more than pleased with the end results and am now confident of doing the inlet tubes. In fact I now reckon the fifteen mounting flanges will be the fiddliest part.Web page here - thanks guys http://www.hitechalloys.com/hitechalloys_005.htm
This is the procedure I followed :

1. Cut brass tube to length and heat a dull red and quench in cold water to anneal.
2. Plug one end of brass tube (I turned up a small slightly tapered wooden plug).
3. Fill tube with cooking oil (I used olive oil) then drain out. This leaves inside of tube lubricated.
4. Melt a small quantity of Woods Metal (I did this in a beaker in a bath of boiling water heated on a small gas burner).
5. Place a small funnel (I made one for the purpose) into the open end of the brass tube and pour in the molten Woods Metal.
6. Now this is the really important part. Immediately plunge the tube into cold water (I placed a few ice cubes in the water to chill it down) to anneal the woods metal. Apparently if you do not do this the Woods Metal solidifies with a coarse brittle granular structure and breaks when trying to bend it.
7. Clamp the tubing in the tube bender I made previously (see in an earlier post page 12)
and make the required bend. The tube bent smoothly with very little force required and to my delight almost no distortion.
8. Finally place tube in boiling water to melt out the Woods Metal. While still hot I pulled through a small piece of wet rag hooked on the end of a length of thin  piano wire to remove any droplets of Woods metal remaining in the tube. On cooling the Woods Metal can be reclaimed to use again. 

And dah - dah - see results in photo.

PS. I will not be venturing into the shop in the next few days despite it being air-conditioned as we are currently experiencing a heatwave with with temperatures of 46 deg.C or 115 deg.F. - forecast is for cooler by the weekend.

Cheers for now - I"m off to *beer*


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all,
       I recently received a private message from HMEM member lantain1982 who had been following our Edwards Radial builds enquiring if I may like to contact him as he had a similar interest in model internal combustion engines . It turned out he only lived about an hour away so we promptly made arrangements for me to visit his workshop. I spent a very interesting morning with a tour of his very well equipped worship and much chat about various engineering aspects but the highlight was to see and hear running his beautifully engineered Bentley rotary engine - similar to a radial but the whole engine rotates while the crankshaft stays still. To see those nine cylinders whirling around and the radial like sound was a wonder to behold.
With lantain82's permission I have posted a couple of pictures of his Bentley.

Cheers all and thanks to lantain82  :bow:


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## necchiom

Very impressive! With compliment to lantain1982.


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## xjs

Aloha everyone --

All the best intentions here in Hawaii to get back rolling with my Radial. Just having to knock a little Reality back into line.

Lantain82, whoever you are, that's a magnificent piece of work. Brian's a lucky lad to have you as a neighbor. I've marveled at those Bentleys for a while, trying to imagine just what they must sound like...also trying to picture what must be going on with all those gases flowing around inside, with all that centrifugal force going on. Don't they mind at all?

Brian, thanks so much for the step-by-step of the pipe-bending. As you may recall I got one of those bending machine kits from Hemingway, but it's still in the box, and will be until it's bending-time.

As things are I'm happy enough now with the bottom-end assembly to move on to the Cylinder Heads. Of course I hadn't ordered enough material to follow Brian's sensible example and make a sacrificial head, just to get the hang of things, so of course I trashed one immediately (by over-turning the combustion chamber) so now I'm waiting for a re-supply of 2" 7075. In the meanwhile I've been fabricating the head-milling fixture so successfully developed by the original LAD (founder of this thread):






It's made per The LAD, just 1/4" aluminium plate screwed to a small angle fixture, with a nub turned on its face the same diameter as the recess cut into the bottom of the heads and some tapped holes to correspond to the head/cylinder screws. So of course now I'm really excited about getting all those fancy angles cut on the head blanks using this device, but I shan't start that part of it till my new supplies arrive, and I can get a couple more blanks cut. That's maybe the biggest drawback of living out here, where shipping doubles the price of stock, and quadruples the time it takes to get ahold of. Not that I'm complaining mark you -- I've been painfully aware of the extremes endured lately by HMEM correspondents in, say, chilly Ontario and warmish New South Wales. Honolulu may be a scruffy sort of place (road maintenance is as yet an undiscovered art, for example) but we're not too often inconvenienced by weather. 

Brian, whatever became of that radial-powered plane that landed in your 'hood?

Happy chipping, everyone.


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## Brian-in-Oz

G'day Michael and all,

Great to see you back into the Edwards Michael - have you finished your micro drill press yet? I would like to see the finished product.
Interestingly I to faced the same situation with the supply of 2" 7075 Aluminium.
I first purchased from Speedy Metals as I could not find a supplier of 7075 in Australia (everyone has 6061) but the freight is the killer. I needed some more 2" 7075 (read sacrificial headS - as in plural) and after much searching found a supplier in Melbourne. The catch was though that they didn't cut and would only supply in a three metre length however it only worked out at about the same price as importing 2 X 1 foot lengths from the States when freight was included. Yes! you guessed it - I now have plenty of 2" 7075 for future projects.
Unfortunately I never did get to see the Stinson Reliant start up as it happened on a Sat. (my golf day) but it did do some passes over the golf course while I was playing and sounded very sweet.
It's funny how some of the seemingly most simple parts of a project can turn out to be problematical and those pesky little inlet and exhaust flanges had me worried. Doing them individually would drive you to drink so I had to come up with a plan to make them all at once. This is what I did.
Turned a piece of 1" brass bar to .900" and drilled a centre hole to fit the brass tube and then parted off 20 odd "washers" .060" thick. I decided to make the flanges of brass instead of the steel as shown in the plans as brass is much easier, quicker and safer to part off than steel but to make them .060" thick rather than the .040" as per plan. I am confident this will be OK. I then placed all of the "washers" onto the mandrel I made as shown in photo and did the nut up real tight so it acted like a solid brass bar and drilled the mounting holes and then milled to shape using the rotary table to give consistent angles. The end and side radii were achieved with a good old fashioned file - undo the nut and presto - a bunch of flanges all at once total time about two hours.
The next step is to make some jigs to hold the tube and flanges in alignment while they are silver soldered. The exhausts will be simple enough but the inlet jig will need to be very precise.
Some years ago my wife and I drove around the perimeter of O'ahu and I don't remember the roads being that bad - what I do remember though is being lined up by the local kids as we approached any bridge over a river - creek and they jumped en-mass into the water to make a huge splash to drench us. We were in a rented convertible (Pontiac Sunbird I think - gutless) so we were fair game but all good fun.

Cheers for now - Brian  Rof}


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## xjs

That's a terrific approach to making the pipe flanges, Brian. So much better than making them one at a time and I'm sure making them of brass instead of steel will make for a prettier result. 

On this end, 7075 reinforcements have arrived and a couple more head blanks are waiting to have their combustion chambers scooped out. Then it'll be fun and games on the mill for the next thirty-odd years (all those set-ups!). Brian, I recall that you made your screw-in valve guides before machining your heads. The way I'm going I'll probably finish the heads before turning the guides...unless there's a problem with that?

The micro drill press is coming along, but even more slowly than the Radial...remember, it's just a therapy project to help stop me taking a hammer to the Radial in those too-passionate "DUH!!!" moments. That said, a few more pieces have been added, and I should have the quill assembly done by the weekend. I'm also looking around for a suitable brushless motor.

So sorry you missed the Stinson. Every now and again I'll spot the radial-powered Bellanca in the sky over Honolulu taking some other lucky bugger for a ride...but I always hear it before I see it. Beautiful thing. I'm sure if Beethoven had lived just a little bit later he'd have written a Concerto for 9-Cylinder Radial and Orchestra.

Here's a pic of my partially-assembled puppy...five rods, three pistons, one cylinder. Most of the other bits are around somewhere, and the heads are in a State Of Becoming...





More soon I hope.

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all Radial Engine Worshippers :bow:

Edwards is looking great Michael - how are the heads coming along.
I am currently away baby sitting the grand kids so no workshop for a few weeks.
When I get home I hope I can finish my Edwards Radial in a few weeks as I only have the inlet tubes ( I think these are going to be real fiddly ) and prop. boss to do. Then I will have to organise an oil tank and engine mount and glo driver before finally seeing if it will run.

Cheers Michael and all  -   :wall:


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## xjs

Aloha Brian & Radialeros all --

Anything anyone has ever said about the labor-intensiveness of the Edwards' cylinder heads wasn't exaggerating. Very time consuming process, which gets even more so as you get more cautious, not wanting to waste the investment made so far. But -- so far, so good. All the boring and counterboring and tapping and scooping seems to have been accomplished to specs, so now it's all over bar the fin-nishing.





 Making 0.030" cuts with a 0.040" slitting saw seems to produce a nice result. After much deliberation I decided to space the fins 0.080" apart, same as those on the cylinder barrels, not because I think it'll aid the cooling -- which I'm sure it won't -- but, just because I liked the look of it. So there.

Here's an in-progress piece, still a little rough around the edges...





 Next stop, of course, will be cutting the fins on the top of the heads, then fabricating the valve guide inserts (bronze or brass, haven't decided yet), making some valves, and fashioning some sort of cutter for the valve seats. 

As one of the sages on this site says, every day a little piece, sometimes the same little piece...

Brian, I'm sure you're a terrific grandfather, but you must be going crazy playing tiddlywinks with toddlers when a completed Radial 5 is just a few pieces of piping away. I know I would be.

All best everyone...

m


----------



## xjs

First head actually achieved, fins and all. Others on the way within days, I expect, since their short back and sides is the only operation left. But then I'm afraid there has to be a short interlude while I overhaul my little Grizzly lathe...as soon as I started setting up to make some valves it became apparent how out-of-true it's become. Less than perfection on this little engine will never do. Anyway, here's Head #1:





More soon I'm sure.

m


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## gbritnell

Michael,
You're absolutely correct on the amount of time it takes to make a head, or in your case 5 heads. When I made the heads for my engine I went through all the same processes that you did, roughing, finishing, finning, guides and seats. Before you know it you'll have them finished and you can take a deep breath and relax. 
gbritnell


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## Brian-in-Oz

Your heads are coming along nicely Michael - and yes I am going crazy not being able to get stuck into bending those last few bits of pipe.
As for playing tiddlywinks with the grandkids these modern kids wouldn't know what they are. They don't seem to be happy unless they've got an iPod or iPhone within reach and Gramps duties is more like chasing an out of control RC helicopter across the neighbourhood rooftops. When I get home my workshop is going to be like a temple of utter serenity.
Anyhow -  keep at those heads - I am looking forward to seeing all five completed. 

Cheers Michael and all.   :rant:


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## xjs

Five heads, all kitted out with valve guides and rocker supports. Valve train is next -- pushrods, rocker arms, cam followers, valves, all that -- before the last rough assembly to make sure everything works when it's supposed to in relation to everything else. And oh yes, a valve seat cutter, I'll be needing to make one of those too. 




Then, it should be down to things like gaskets and carburetion and some sort of ignition, and see how many places the oil squirts out. Hmmm. Shouldn't take more than another eon or two.

Something that's puzzling me...I bought a set of Fox "long" glowplugs, as specified, but they seem so tiny when I put them in place. The thread's ok, but the business end of the plug is at least 3/16" shy of the end of the threaded hole when screwed all the way in. Also the plug body just seems so titchy in that great big countersunk hole, like a fire hydrant at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Do I have the wrong plugs I wonder?

Hope you've survived your babysitting duties, Brian. How's them pipes?

All best,

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,

The heads look great Michael - when I looked at the photo of them I couldn't help thinking they looked like five faces with ears pricked up, eyes boggled and a mouth exclaiming ohww! I'm glad that's over. I know just how you feel now that they are finished.
I also purchased the Fox long gloplugs (with idle bar) as specified in the plans and I know what you mean when you say they they look a bit lost when in position but I am am sure this must be OK. I intend to purchase an automatic glo driver that provides current to the plugs only when needed. I guess when we actually get to the point of trying to get our engines to run we will enter a whole new area of problem solving.
I am still on baby sitting duty in Newcastle but head for home on Friday with even less hair (a two day drive) and intend to spend 24/7 in the workshop next week and will keep information flowing as to success or otherwise with the inlet tubes.

Cheers for now Michael and all from Brian in Oz.  :big:


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## petertha

xjs said:


> ..I bought a set of Fox "long" glowplugs, as specified, but they seem so tiny when I put them in place. The thread's ok, but the business end of the plug is at least 3/16" shy of the end of the threaded hole when screwed all the way in. Also the plug body just seems so titchy in that great big countersunk hole, like a fire hydrant at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Do I have the wrong plugs I wonder?
> m



I'm kind of intrigued by this. I don't have any Fox brand plugs to measure myself, but I seem to recall 2 basic lengths, long & short. Eyeballing what I think is a long plug picture & using ~1/4" diameter thread as a visual measurement guide, guessing the threaded apportion is ~0.25" long as well <less> the copper washer & maybe [plus] idle bar? The Edwards section view looks like it calls for 0.25" threaded length? But I guess that's the minimum distance relative to piston because the combustion chamber is a cone. So the fore/aft edges of the plug would be inside the cone by some amount. Is this what you mean? 

 Or maybe I'm misunderstanding & you mean the 0.5" counter bore to accommodate the socket wrench over the hex to tighten/loosen plug?


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## xjs

Gentlemen --

Brian, its always a temptation to anthropomorphize our little creations (stroking the aluminum, "how are you this mornin' Sadie, a little less snarly perhaps, ready to take a drop of kerosene coolant today without spittin' at yer ol' man...?")  But I just loved your descriptions of what my heads were saying to you.  So animated and human and needy. But then I'm in downtown LA just now, and I've seen any number of faces  jUst this evening that could fit that description. 

Petertha, thanks for your observations...I'm going to measure up .that whole cast of characters when I get back, and let you know.

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all of HMEM

after a month of looking after the grandkids I am finally back in the sanctity of my workshop. First job was to make a jig to hold the exhaust pipe and flange in the correct alignment while silver soldering them. All went well and the things that hopefully will produce that lovely radial symphony are now bolted in place.
Perhaps the German language anthropomorphises (now you've taught me a new word Michael I can't help but use it) our engines as there is no direct translation for radial engine as they call it a sternmotor i.e translated -  a star engine. 
The inlet tubes are next and an accurate jig will be need as they have to fit precisely on both ends not like the exhausts that just have to bolt on and can point almost anywhere.
In case anyone is wondering the round boss in the middle of the engine is just to hold it while working on it - this is where the inlet manifold bolts on. 

Cheers all - Brian  scratch.gif


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## LADmachining

That is looking excellent Brian - I am inspired to get out in the workshop and get working on my one! 

Anthony


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## xjs

Welcome back to the Land of Swarf, Brian, and congratulations on your (as always) first-rate work. Your collection of parts is beginning to take on a most engine-like appearance, and pretty soon I expect to be able to hear it roar from here.

My collection of parts still looks like a collection of parts, however, and I haven't been adding much to it lately since I've got my lathe torn apart for tuning, and in between things I've been nibbling away at my micro-drill press project. Which makes your creation all the more humbling.

BTW I'm not sure if this shows up on your screen but, as one of the by-products of HMEM's recent expansion of advertising activities, both of your pictures have interesting captions: the second is headlined "Brain Training Games," and urges us all to "challenge [our] memory and attention with scientific brain games." Pretty appropriate, I thought. But the first picture is captioned "The Fountain of Youth," which struck me as well-intentioned though perhaps a bit of an exaggeration. 

Best all,

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Anthony - thanks for your comments and interest.
It was your original posts that got me going on the Edwards in the first place.
If Michael and myself can inspire you to get back into your workshop and finish yours that would be great, however as much as we love making swarf Parenting (and Grand Parenting) comes first.
 Cheers and keep us in touch with your progress - Brian   Thm:


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and Edwards Radial fans one and all,

I have just put in a solid few days in the shop and the inlet pipes are now complete and mounted and it has hit home to me that the engine is almost complete, only the prop. hub and breather tubes on the back of the crankcase to go. It is a bit of a strange feeling really, after spending three and a half years on the project and I am sure I can hear voices in the back of my head saying what next! - what next!.
There is still a bit to keep me occupied for a while making the oil and fuel tank, 
engine mount and a stand to hold all the bits together so I can (hopefully) get it to run. I will also need to source a glow plug driver as well.
My posts will continue with reports on success, failure or otherwise in my attempt to get the Edwards to run successfully. Undoubtedly some mods or re-maching of some parts may be required.
Below the picture of the inlet pipes is the simple jig I used to orientate the flanges to the pipe and hold them in place while silver soldering. Because a different  amount is machined off the top of each of the cylinder liners to adjust the compression ratio each inlet pipe is slightly different so a separate jig is required for each one.
I hope the HMEM members who have been following my build have enjoyed it as much as I have had in sharing it with them and I thank you all for your interest and comments. 

Have a Happy and Safe Easter everyone.

Cheers - Brian      woohoo1    woohoo1


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## xjs

That's a beautiful thing, Brian. I'm sure it's impossible to take your eyes of it for a moment, which makes me wonder how Mrs. Brian feels about the three of you sitting at the breakfast table every morning?

A couple of questions:

What did you end up using for a carburetor?

Are your pipes thinwall 9/64" a la Edwards, or did you substitute?

When you say you needed a different jig for every inlet pipe, presumably you meant you incrementally adjusted the one in the pic?

My Edwards isn't looking quite so grand, but is still very slowly coming along. It's now sufficiently re-assembled that I can sit for hours twirling the prop mount and watching the lovely do-si-do dance of the crankshaft and master rod and link rods and pistons in that special way that can only happen in the Radial Ballroom...








In between reveries I've managed to finish a dozen or so valves, and am currently nibbling away at a set of pushrods. Terrifically tedious, and I'm so happy right now I'm only dealing with five cylinders. But...it is giving me an opportunity to think about something else, namely making the valve seat cutter, the next project on the list.

Oh, and I solved the mystery of the glo-plug that seemed oddly placed...for reasons I can only put down to senility I simply didn't make the counterbore in the top of the heads deep enough...so I had 3/8" of threaded bore rather than just 1/4". Better than the other way around I suppose...at least it's something I can fix.

All best all....

m


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael -  I'll attempt to answer your questions coherently and in order.

The carburettor that I have is a Perry 2100.
The Perry #302 and #205 carby's are discontinued. I emailed Conley Precision Engines who now own Perry with the details of the Edwards Radial and received an immediate reply from Gary Conley himself recommending the model 2100 as being a suitable and newer alternative. I gave him the OK to send me one and the whole deal was done in about half an hour  including Gary saying it was packed and ready to post. Fantastic service!
Now the pipes, och the pipes. I used 7mm thin walled K&S brass tubing which is about 5 thou smaller than the 9/32" (not 9/64" I think you had a typo) listed in Edward's plans. I didn't think this small amount would matter.
As for the jigs for the inlet tubes I did make individual ones for each cylinder. To make and adjustable jig for the precision required would be (for me anyhow) much more time consuming. The main part of the jig is 2" X 1/8" aluminium angle with the end milled dead square as this is used as a reference point for taking measurement with an edge finder. The distance from the centre of the inlet port to the crankcase backplate where the inlet manifold is bolted on can be calculated from dimensions on the plan and thus be proportionately drilled to accept a flange on the side flat on the alum. angle. The other part of the jig is made from a milled down piece of the same alum. angle and also drilled proportionately the same as one flat on the inlet manifold to accept a flange. A hole is drill exactly in line with the centre of the flange and .500" away from the face the same as the actual inlet manifold.
Depending on the distance calculated to adjust the compression ratio's ( i.e. the height of the barrel plus the distance from where the head sits on the barrel taking in to account any head gasket used plus the radius of the crankcase where the barrel sits and the relative position of the inlet port ) a hole is drilled and tapped in a position on the adjacent angle face at what would be the cylinder centre line. 
The part of the jig representing the inlet manifold is then set at 72 deg and firmly bolted in position.
I don't know if you can follow my description but I think the jig is pretty self explanatory in the photo  apart from actual dimensions which I am sure you can calculate ( I did mine with a calculator and didn't write them down) and while on the surface of it it may seem tiresome to make individual jigs ( the inlet manifold part is reused as dimensions don't change here) they didn't really take long at all to make .
I have just read through my description and have come to believe I have a God  given talent for making something very simple appear indescribably difficult.
Anyhow I can only hope I may have been of help.

Cheers Brian    scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif

P.S. I love the photo of the Edwards from the rear with the innards exposed. This really exemplifies the heart of a radial engine.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Easy! make it out of titanium.

Hi all - a while back a friend gave me a piece of titanium bar 10'' X .750". Originally it was a hydraulic ram on the Sydney to Hobart winning yacht Wild Oats X1 which is one of the boats he works on. I must have been in an adventurous state of mind today as despite all the horror stories I had heard about machining titanium I decided it was time to put that exotic looking piece of metal in a chuck.
With sweating palms I decided the first thing I would do is attempt to cut the 5/16" X 24 thread. I had some nice HSS taps (mid taper and plug) and set about the task. First drill a hole with a I letter drill. It soon became apparent that this light weight and rather pretty metal is some tough customer. Despite using a liberal dose of tap magic as cutting fluid quite a bit of heat was generated but with a bit of patience and care a hole was drilled without delegating a spare hole in my letter drill case. Next step was to load the mid taper tap in the tailstock chuck and have a go at cutting a thread. Once again it became immediately apparent that this stuff was not remotely related to brass but non the less by repeatedly and very carefully cutting a bit and backing off I managed to get to the bottom of the hole without breaking the tap. I then finished with the plug tap with no further drama.
The big surprise was that on cleaning and inspecting the thread I would have to say that it was one of the nicest looking threads I have seen. Not the slightest sign of pickup, just a beautiful polished looking thread.
So far - so good, now to turn the nut and nose diameters. For this I used a slightly rounded nose sharp carbide insert and cut 10 thou. at a pass. While it was obvious once again that this is tough stuff the swarf peeled off cleanly leaving an excellent finish.
To mill the flats of the nut I ran my mill as fast as it would go and used a four flute HSS end mill cutter taking cuts of .2mm (my mill is metric) and sprayed CRC while cutting.
No problems were encountered and the finish was excellent and the cutter remained sharp. I was sure my ball turner would not take the stress of cutting the rounded nut nose so I did this with a coarse file first progressing to a fine file and finally polishing with carborundum paper.
And so ends my first encounter with titanium, admittedly on a small component.
Does it deserve its horror reputation? - in my opinion no.
Is it more difficult to machine than most metals I encounter? - definitely, but with solid rigid machinery and sharp tools and patience it is quite do-able.
Will I be using more titanium in future projects? - almost certainly not unless it is particularly specified - it is simply very time consuming (not to mention the cost) at least with the tooling most home shops possess.

I guess a bonus of having a titanium propellor nut is when someone asks what my Edwards Radial is made of I can say oh! titanium -uh- and a bit off other stuff.

Cheers all - Brian    th_bs


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## xjs

Yo Brian --

Many thanks for the detailed information on pipe production. It's now in the same file as all your other excellent advice on How To Cook A Proper Radial.

Don't think I'll ever be able to top a titanium prop nut though. A platinum fuel tank? Diamond-studded motor mounts?

I know when I'm beat.

Best,

m


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all,

       Tinkering continues in the quest of hopefully getting the Edwards to run. With Michaels permission I have plagiarised his design for an engine mount and have tried to keep dimensions with weight in mind so that it could actually be used in an aircraft. Wether this will actually happen is debatable as I am petrified at the thought of the engine coming into an uncontrolled contact with terra firma but you never know.
Next step is to mount the engine and go over it, adjust tappet clearance and check that all is OK with compression etc. and attempt to remedy any defects that may show up. I am also still researching glow plug drivers and will need to make a purchase soon but all in all "attempt to start day" inches slowly closer.
On the subject of machining titanium I have just watched a "You Tube" video on making the Lockheed Joint Strike Fighter Plane and they spent five months machining just one of the main airframe bulkheads. Sort of puts into perspective the challenges this material has for the home machinist !
How is your Edwards coming along Michael?

Cheers all - Brian   *discussion*


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## birdii16v

Hi everyone. This is my first post on this forum! I have really enjoyed reading about this Edwards radial build, certainly got my interest light on!

I should introduce myself first, I live in Lincolnshire England and I am an engineer by profession. I have worked through an apprenticeship machining and fitting then after a break of a few years I went to university and studied for a degree in mech eng. Now that I am just about desk bound the garage is a real sanctuary where I can still get my hands dirty!

I am also a keen aeromodeller and the pride of my collection is my Gilmore red lion racer fitted with an SC 400 5 cylinder radial! This engine is also glow allot like the Edwards (but nothing like the quality) and is 64cc. 

So I approach the Edwards from a slightly different path, I have the planes and can fly them but now I want to build my own engine!

I absolutely love my radial and fly it whenever I can, the sound is superb although I have to confess to being a full throttle freak. If it isn't doing 7k revs then I'm not enjoying it!&#128512;.

I wondered if I may be able to offer advice on the actual running of a beast that is the 5 cylinder glow radial in return for all of the fantastic machining tips that I have already gained from you guys?

Firstly, glow plugs. I have always been a big fan of the os f type plugs in 4 stroke glows. They have served me very well and still do in the SC. It will idle very well with these plugs without a glow system however for security I do run an on board glow system. My engine was actually 2nd hand. The previous owner had given up on it as it wouldn't run well. I tested it after purchase and agree it was rubbish. I made one change and it cured everything - the glow plugs!

There aren't many glow systems on the market for 5 cylinders. Sullivan make one but I can only find bad reviews on this. My approach was to use three twin cylinder drivers from HobbyKing. This isn't the neatest approach but they work brilliantly. My radio is set up to switch the glows on to half power below 1/3rd throttle. Above this I don't use any power. The spare lead is just tucked away and causes no issues.
Here is a link to the drivers that I have used:

www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__35848__Two_Cylinder_Engine_R_C_Glow_Plug_Driver.html

I will continue to follow your thread with great interest and hopefully some day soon I will start a build of my own! Thanks
Dan


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## petertha

Nice meeting you birdii16v

 Coincidental you should mention the SC400. I was just looking at that engine ad recently, more specifically what appears to be a ignition harness offered. They only show the plug boots, not the business end. Do you know much about it or used it?
http://www.allelectricrc.co.uk/sc400-64cc-5-cylinder-radial-256-p.asp


 Re the HobbyKing glow harness, good score there. 
 - its designed for 2 cylinders, so 3 harnesses = 6 plugs for 5 cylinders so 1 odd connector remains un-connected. I assume it must not 'overdrive' (overheat) that single plug as a result? 
 - How about your battery configuration? They say *3.2V~8.4V (1~2S LiXX)*Do you run 1S or 2S lipo ? One pack feeding all harnesses? How much maH capacity? What kind of current draw do you see at the plugs? I'm guessing by this input range the board must have the equivalent of step down regulator. 

 Sorry for the non-Edwards post. Maybe if this has interest, re-post under a new multi-cylinder glow ignition title. This topic comes up often & I'm interested myself.


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## birdii16v

Hi. The leads shown in the picture are supplied with the engine. The instructions show these to be connected to a 2 volt battery. This works but gives full glow power so you need a large battery to get good duration. If I remember correct the current draw was around 10 amps.

I now use a 4 cell NiMH 5000mah with the glow driver's, this gives me enough power for a days flying.

The reserve (sixth) glow lead hasn't caused any problems and I get 5 very equal glows. Its a cheap solution that has been very practical for my application. 

Apologies if I have gone off topic!

Dan


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Dan - welome to the forum.

Your experience with a running radial could be priceless to Michael and myself.
My Edwards Radial is virtually "finished but not finished". I am not completely happy with the evenness of compression and want to sort this out before even attempting to get it to run. I was never very happy with the method described in the plans for making the piston rings - turn up an oversize tube of cast iron and mill a slot along its length then compress in a chuck and finish bore and grind.
The slot compresses OK at the chuck end but remains slightly open at the other end and there is the possibility of distortion.
Anyhow I have decided to spend more time and effort on the rings and make new ones by the Trimble method and a spare set while I am at it before even attempting to get the engine to run.
I have also been looking around at glow drivers and this one caught my attention as it comes in twins and singles so you can daisy chain two twins and a single together for five cylinders. http://www.southhertsmodels.co.uk
Do you have any knowledge of this product.
There is an Australian distributor for South Herts Models.
Looking forward to seeing you make some radial swarf.

P.S. petertha definitely not off the thread - right on the money in fact.

Cheers Brian   wEc1


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## xjs

Hello all --

Xjs back again, feeling a bit of an underachiever.  You'll have perhaps heard that work is the curse of the drinking classes?  Well, I'm here to tell you it's also the curse of the swarfing classes...just far too little shop time the last few months, and now I find myself (not TOO unhappily, I must admit) on holiday, on the other side of the planet from my poor, neglected Radial.

Most all of the valve train is now done...valves, pushrods, lifters, retainers, springs, even mostly done with the rockers.

I've run across a bit of a snag with the heads, though...just before leaving town I pulled off a head to try out my recently acquired valve seat cutter.  Wasn't at all happy with the result...it seemed the screw-in valve guide didn't line up exactly with the valve seat, producing an asymmetrical result I didn't like the look of at all.  Pulled another head...same result.  Then, had to rush away and haven't played with it since.  I'm rather hoping this doesn't mean I'll have to make a new set of heads from scratch...now I won't know for sure till I get back to HI in a couple of weeks.  

Brian, your motor looks ready for prime time...all that pretty pipe work, and those motor mounts look better than the originals!  Sorry, butl instructive, to hear about your reservations about the rings though. I suppose if these radials were easy, everyone would be making 'em!!

And Dan, great to have you aboard!  Thanks for starting the discussion on glo plugs, and I know Brian is as exited as I am at the prospect of having another build going.

Aloha all,


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## birdii16v

Hi Brian,

I haven&#8217;t come across  South Herts Models or that particular glow driver however after reading the literature it appears to be a sophisticated system and very likely well up to the job!

If you need a simple method to test the engine then a 2v lead acid battery will do the trick. A very functional (but not tidy) method of attaching the power supply to the glow plug is to use an electrical terminal block with the plastic stripped off. My leads are now attached using this method however they are out of sight in the cowling.

I'm interested in the method you will use to measure the compression. This is something that i have thought of doing on the SC engine as it has suffered with cooler cylinders at the bottom of the engine. This may be simply down to fuelling but i thought it may be worth a compression check.

My idea was to make an adaptor to use an automotive compression tester however I&#8217;m not sure that the gauge scale will be adequate. It would be simple enough to make so may be worth me having a try.

Dan


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Dan,

sorry for being so slack in answering your post - I have been spending most of my spare time recently putting together a rather complex itinerary for a planned overseas trip of three months. I have seen small compression testers listed online that screw into the glow plug hole but I don't think it would be to difficult to make one. Many years ago (like nearly fifty) I made a tester to keep an eye on the compression of my Cooper "S" (the proper one) that got thrashed within an inch of its' life. To do this I simply attached a compression gauge to a tube and on the end of the tube attached the valve and teat cut from an inner tube that pushed this into the spark plug hole which sealed while cranking the engine. Pressing the valve released the pressure and so a reading could then be taken on the next cylinder - simple but it worked a treat. I am sure something could be done on a smaller scale.
       On the Edwards front I have decided to make a whole new set of piston rings and heat treat them in a temperature controlled oven (kindly loaned by a friend with a very nice commercial machine shop) and am working on a jig that can be returned to the lathe accurately between centres and individually grind the rings for each cylinder. I will post some pictures of this soon.
       Unfortunately it does not look like i will have the engine running before we leave - ah well, looks like Xmas is the new deadline.

Cheers Dan - Michael and all  -  Brian      :hDe:


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## LADmachining

I have the plans somewhere for a small engine compression tester that was designed by the late Bob Shores.  They were made available from the floridaame.org website.

The tester used a small pressure gauge with a 1/8"NPT that are typically used on pneumatic fittings, and a non-return valve to keep the accumulated pressure within the gauge (and maintain the reading) until reset.

Will dig them out and post them.

** EDIT ** Here is a link to the drawing - http://floridaame.org/HowTo_files/image002.jpg


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi All,
        thanks for the link on the compression tester Anthony.
Once I come to grips with making piston rings properly I will probably make one.
After being dissatisfied with the Edwards method of slot, clamp and machine piston rings I had a go at the Trimble method and was not satisfied with the results here either. I believe that heat treatment by this method is not precise enough for consistent results and I also found the ring not contacting the bore at all points around the circumference. 
In my mind the only way to get a perfect ring fit is to grind it to the exact bore size after the ring has been wedged open and correctly heat treated in a temperature controlled oven.
To this end I have made a jig to hold heat treated and correctly gapped rings in a compressed state while grinding to size. I have made the jig to operate between centres driven with a lathe dog so that it can be easily and  repeatedly removed and replaced in the lathe and be dead true each time which is not possible with a chuck. 
I have decided to make the rings 10 thou. oversize and they are then loaded into the tube of which the bore is also 10 thou. oversize and is a perfect sliding fit onto the jig. The tube with the rings loaded is pushed onto the jig until they contact and are concentric with the ridge and then the neatly fitting clamping cap is mounted and tightened. The tube is then removed leaving the rings clamped in a compressed state ready for grinding with the tool post grinder.
Another advantage of this jig is it will fit a high precision grinder graduated in microns that a friend with a machine shop has and he kindly offered the use of.
When I have machined up some rings and ground them I will report as to the success or failure of this method. If nothing else this exercise with piston rings has been a great learning curve.
An extremely in depth article on piston rings as well as a similar diagram to the jig I have made can be found here -   http://www.model-engine-plans.com/engineeringtips/pistonrings.htm
Pictures below should give some idea as to operation.

Cheers All  -  Brian   :wall:


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## ozzie46

Brian, I think you will be disappointed again with your method.

I'm sure you just over looked this but here goes.

 If you grind the rings to the bore size after heat treamant and gapping, there will be no out ward springiness or pressure to force the rings against the bore and they won't seal bore to build compression. 

  The rings should be made to a stiff push fit in the bore,THEN gapped and heat treated so they will exert the required pressure on the cyl bore.

Ron


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## Cogsy

I think he's compressing the rings, then locking them in a compressed state and grinding to the bore size. When released they will again expand but they won't be a truly round shape until they are placed into the bore. Then they should be a true full contact ring, with the required pressure against the bore.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Thanks for your interest and comments Ron and Al.

Ron the rings will have tension against the bore as they will have "springiness" after being heat treated in a wedged open state. The purpose of the tube is to hold the rings in a compressed state and keep them perfectly concentric prior to assembling and tightening the cap that holds them in position for grinding to the bore size.
Al correctly grasped the idea in that on removal from the grinding jig the rings will expand but after fitting to the pistons will be compressed to fit the cylinder and should be a perfect fit on their whole circumference with the correct pressure against the cylinder walls. When I mentioned gapping the rings I was referring to the very small (about 4thou.) clearance at the "break" that allows the ring to compress minutely smaller than the bore so that binding cannot take place and tension is maintained against the cylinder walls and there is only a tiny gap where blow by can take place.
I have to source some more cast iron so it will be a week or so before I get to actually make some more rings but will post a report on how I get on.

Thanks again for your interest guys - i hope this better explains the principle.

Cheers Brian   Thm:


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## ozzie46

Ok. I see now.

Ron


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## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> ... and I also found the ring not contacting the bore at all points around the circumference.



This is great stuff. I hadn't realized there was any subsequent information or opinions subsequent to the Trimble methods.

 1) I'm curious when you say 'not contacting', how did you determine this & quantify it?

 2) Just for kicks, have you similarly tested a so-called commercial ring like any typical RC 4-stroke of similar bore inside the liner & compared how they fare against your shop made effort?

 3) Does the cast iron machine (grind) any different once its been heat treated to gap open state? What kind of stone or abrasive grit would be appropriate here?


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha - thank's for you your interest in my piston ring making attempts.
I'll try to satisfactorily answer your questions.

1. It was easy to determine the rings were not contacting on their whole circumference. When heat treated by the Trimble method they take on a blue colour like rifle blueing and this tends to rub off at contact points exposing the "high spots". I also placed a ring in the bore and blocked off its' centre and placed a bright light in the bore behind the ring and in a dark room you could actually see a tiny sliver of light peeping through where the ring was not contacting.
The high spots were at the gap and exactly adjacent just as described in the article in the link in my first post on rings.
2. I don't have access to a commercial engine for comparison.
3. I am not a metallurgist so I cannot speak with any authority as to the effect of grinding or skimming after heat treating other than to assume it has little or no effect as commercial cast iron rings are usually made from pre heat treated blanks and then ground. Any heat generated in the grinding process would be absolutely minimal as only a fraction of a thou. will be removed at a time and the jig would quickly dissipate that.
If I resort to using a friends commercial grinder think in microns not thousandth of an inch. 25.4 microns to one thousandth of an inch. I should be able to get a nice fit working with those tolerances - just makes us home modellers realise how coarsely graduated the equipment most of us work with really is.
None the less I am first having a go with my tool post grinder (3 " white aluminium oxide wheel - not sure of the grit size, it was supplied with the kit but is fairly fine) as I would like to complete the Edwards using all my own equipment.
You can call me pedantic because I am but I prefer the idea of the rings evenly contacting the bore and not potentially wearing the bore unevenly while waiting for the rings to "bed" (i.e wear in).
Of course until I actually make some rings with this method everything is hypothetical so will post results good, bad or otherwise.

Cheers Brian    :


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## Swifty

Hi Brian, I'm following your post with great interest and enjoying the pics. I had a great Jones and Shipman cylindrical grinder at work, that too was graduated in microns on the fine feed dial and was dead on accurate. I get the impression that some people think that heat treating cast iron rings actually hardens them, it's only to set the gap at the correct sprung size.

Your method of holding the rings for grinding sounds like an excellent way of doing things, if I recall correctly, most of our cylindrical grinding was done with a 60 grit wheel, both hard and soft material.

Paul.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Paul - just out of interest I will find out what make of cylinder grinder is in my friends workshop - it is his temperature controlled oven I am going to use to heat treat the rings. I have just had a phone call from Surman Metals in Adelaide to say some cast iron and 2024 aluminium I had ordered will be in in a couple of days so I should be able to get into making some rings by the weekend.
I have a stack of grinding wheels for my flatbed grinder and I had a look and they are 60 grit and look about the grit same as the one on my tool post grinder.
Just for fun I took a picture of the cross feed dial on my "oldy but a goody" Hercus lathe. The dial is only .970" in diameter and and the graduations .001" which means advancing just one graduation mark removes a whopping .002".
To be able to accurately machine with 25 odd more graduations jammed in between those tiny graduations is something for us hobby guys to just dream about. 
None the less I still work between those graduations when needing the accuracy - I tighten up the way gibs a tad so things don't move too freely and creep the feed forward with as steady a hand as possible.
What sort of work did you do Paul - we need people like you with a practical machining background to to keep us hobby hackers on track.

Cheers Brian   *knuppel2*


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## Swifty

Hi Brian, I've seen those Hercus lathes with the tiny dials, makes it very hard to be accurate. I'm a toolmaker by trade, most of my work was specialising in complicated follow on press tools for electrical and automotive components. The last 10 years of my working life also included the manufacture of tooling for transfer presses, assembly stations for companies like Bosch etc. I've only worked at one place all my working life, however I did end up owning it for 10 years before I retired, due to me having to eventually go on dialysis. I employed 10 tradesmen and I was also very hands on. I sure could use the equipment that I had now, it would make it a lot easier.

Paul.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi again Paul,

thanks for the info and I hope your health is under control to allow you plenty of shop time. Maybe a future project would to make some larger dials for the Hercus with more space between the graduations - I wonder if any members have done this to their Hercus or Southbend lathes?

Cheers - take care and stay tuned - Brian  Thm:


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## xjs

Aloha Brian and all Radiaphiles --

Just a note to assure that Radial production here in the Islands hasn't ground entirely to a halt, but it did suffer a bit of a setback when it was discovered that the set of finished cylinder heads, so lovingly machined, photographed, and celebrated, were just pretty pieces of junk.

Somehow or another I'd managed to get the valve seats out of whack with the centerline of the valve guides. This became horribly apparent once I acquired a valve seat cutter and began to chamfer the seats. All of you who have gone through the arduous process of producing these heads know how much time gets invested in those babies. So, for the last couple of months, another seven heads (two spares) have been very slowly brought into being. So v-e-e-r-y slowly, partly because of the extreme caution, and partly because of a taxing travel schedule, keeping me out of the shop for weeks at a time.

So they're not quite done yet, but they're well on the way, and mistakes have been learned from. So far, they seem perfect in every respect (he says, reaching to touch the largest piece of wood available).

As I've been creeping along with this re-make I've been meticulously keeping notes along the step-by-step way, and this really seems to help. For all I know this is common practice for everyone here, but I'm very much in the business of picking up good work habits as I go along by trying (and then discarding) all the bad ones first. Anyway, taking notes seem to help keep my flaky mind organized. 

In between bouts of despair I've been keeping up with the thread, and continue to be astounded by the quality of workmanship and the abundance of ingenuity.

So, all's well out here, just a bit slower than we'd like.

All best everyone.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and All, 

that's really bad news about the heads and I wonder if I may even be at least partly responsible for suggesting the screw in method for securing the valve guides.
I also had some misalignment with the inlet ports to the valve seats but it was only very small and could be corrected by reaming the ports a little before cutting the valve seats. Despite this I think if I was making the heads over again I would 
make a guide and seat cage as one and insert into the head maybe even before machining the combustion chamber and drilling the side entry inlet and exhaust ports. Are you doing the guides differently this time?
      On my home front I am continuing the quest for the perfect piston ring. I have made two new complete sets of oversize rings that are slipped onto a jig to
hold the gap open at 080 thou. while being heat treated (see photo).
They are off to a temperature controlled oven in the morning to sweat it out at
600deg.C for about twenty minutes after being raised to this temperature from ambient room temperature and then allowed to air cool. 
       If all goes well they should have then taken a new "set" to provide tension when closed. They will then be compressed and placed into the alignment tube of the grinding jig (see earlier post) and gapped to .004 thou. and tightened in position and ground to exact cylinder size. This is about the last thing I am going to be able to do on the Edwards for about three months.
      I will post the outcome results.

      Cheers Brian  :toilet:  *bang*  *club*  *beer*


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and radial fans one and all,

Today I heat treated my batch of piston and oil rings in a temperature controlled oven thanks to the generosity of a friend with a machine shop. The rings on the gap spacing mandrel were placed in the cold oven then switched on with the thermostat set at 600deg.C. Once this temperature was reached it was maintained for 30 minutes before switching off and opening and the rings left to air cool.
It would be an understatement to say I am happy with the results. The rings have taken the gap "set" beautifully and are nice and "springy" and show not the slightest sign to bend and loose the gap set when closing them. Now "fingers crossed" and just one step to go - fit the rings to the grinding mandrel and carefully grind to bore size. I will try and achieve this with the tool post grinder but if accuracy is a chore my machine shop pal has offered me the use of his commercial cylinder grinder graduated in microns. ( oh! I would kill for one of those).
Just out of interest I tried the grinding jig I made on the old Model A 9" Hercus lathe on this high precision cylinder grinder and checked it for any "run out" and was delighted that it ran dead true even by the high standard set by this machine. Not bad for a 65 year old lathe.
God bless your soul Fred W Hercus.

Cheers all - stay tuned for the grinding 

Brian        Thm:


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## xjs

Brian, I'm learning so much from your experiments and experience with those rings. As you know I made a quantity of rings using the Edwards' recipe, and I was well pleased with them at the time -- but then I hadn't planned to install them until the final assembly stage, and they've just been snoozing in their Altoids tin, waiting. Now at least I'm prepared for a nasty surprise if they aren't as perfect as I've imagined (the way I thought my heads were at one time), and I'll know how to detect their faults, and I've got a good idea of how to make better ones. So, thanks for your research and industry, and for passing along the results.

And, please don't worry about suggesting the screw-in valve guides. I'm using the same guides in the new heads, and expect them to perform beautifully. The mis-match of axes of valves and guides in my first set of heads was gross human error, pure and simple. I'm making the second set with a caution and technique that could only have been born of experience. Screwing up every now and again is how we learn not to. And, unlike life outside the shop, all it costs is a chunk of metal.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,

Here are the rings (two compression with oil in center) all clamped up in the mandrel ready for grinding to bore size.
Runout around ring circumference is only 1 1/2 thou. and I have 5 thou. to play with so the only stuff up now would be to grind undersize. Be careful Brian.

Cheers Brian     *knuppel2*


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and all,

Today was the day of reckoning as I very carefully ground the rings to exactly bore dimensions. I managed to do it with the tool post grinder on the lathe so have had the satisfaction of doing it with my own equipment.
Am I happy with the result?  You bet! The rings now have no option but to fit the bore precisely when compressed and none of my previous concerns are evident.
A lot of rings have gone down the drain to get to this point but certainly in my own mind I feel this the only way to get a truly precise ring. Not rocket science when you think about it - correct temperature control for heat treating - make rings slightly oversize - compress tensioned rings in a true running jig and grind to size. I think it would probably be OK to turn the rings to final size but more care would be needed in regards to getting a nice finish.
The rings have been fitted to the piston and piston to the cylinder and tomorrow I will re-assemble the cylinder and head to the Edwards crankcase and report on the compression results compared to previously. 

Cheers from the Happy Edwardian Brian    ;D


----------



## petertha

That's really neat, Brian & they look great. I was waiting for your pic before my follow-up questions. 

 So now you have a (single) set of perfect OD rings. Was that a proof of concept operation & you can re-use the exact same jig holding elements (blue bar & red bar) chunks for subsequent ring set grinding operations? Or are these clamping chunks kind of sacrificial elements to each pair/set? ie, the fact that the jig stubs are now = finished ring diameter, doesn't matter, they will continue to do their job & clamp oversize rings for subsequent grinding.

 Could you stack up more rings in the same jig, or you are concerned about a slight taper yielding slightly different OD's?


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha,

Thank's for your continuing interest in the radial engine project.
I could stack a few more rings in the jig and any taper grinding would not be an issue as I am fortunate in that my old Hercus lathe does turn nice and parallel.
The reason I am only doing three at a time is (two compression - one oil ring) is that I am fitting each of the five cylinders individually. I gave each cylinder a light lapping with a brake cylinder hone which gave a nice finish but a tiny difference in  bore diameter. Only a few tenths of a thou. across the five cylinders but I want the rings for each cylinder to be as precise a fit as I am capable of making them.
You are correct in your assessment that the jig can be used for subsequent grinding of the other four sets of rings. The alignment tube for centring the rings prior to clamping them up tight fits along the entire length of the jig so that the small over grind past the rings is of no consequence.
This whole exercise has been a huge learning curve for me but I guess that's what this hobby is about. At least I will know how to make piston rings for the next engine.

Cheers Brian  :idea:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all - after three months touring the World I am now back in the workshop and keen to put the finishing touches to the Edwards Radial. Today I ground another set of piston rings and now have two cylinders with nice bouncy compression.
A highlight of my trip and as a direct involvement with HMEM was personally meeting with Michael  in Honolulu and spending a few hours in his very nice workshop discussing our mutual Edwards Radial projects over a few beers. Thank you Michael, that was a great evening.
My engine is now virtually finished apart from three sets of rings so most future stuff will (hopefully) revolve around things like glo drivers, oil and fuel tanks and trying to get the engine to run.

Cheers all and stay tuned - no more big trips planned.

Brian  th_wav


----------



## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> I am continuing the quest for the perfect piston ring. I have made two new complete sets of oversize rings that are slipped onto a jig to hold the gap open at 080 thou. while being heat treated (see photo). They are off to a temperature controlled oven in the morning to sweat it out at 600deg.C for about twenty minutes after being raised to this temperature from ambient room temperature and then allowed to air cool.



Hi Brian. I'm just completing an Excel spreadsheet that replicates the Trimble method. I think the math is working & I'll post once its all ironed out. I've also been inserting dimensions of a few existing engines just to see how the parameters compare, interestingly including a commercial RC (OS-56-4S) piston/ring assembly of identical 0.945" bore.

Anyway, the Edwards rings have me baffled. I was hoping you could elaborate. Attaching plans excerpts, assume this is the latest version. The way I read their machining sequence is:
- rough OD & ID turning
- slot a ring gap = 0.080"
- close the ring gap (in chuck)
- turn to finish OD = 0.944" & ID = 0.875"

... so no heat setting AFAIK. The radial tension is presumably achieved 'cold' by radially closing the slot & machining to final size?

Now onto your procedure. Did you snap the ring (meaning break as opposed to slot) & then heat set to the same 0.080" gap? Reason I ask is the Trimble calculation suggests 0.142" dowel pin diameter (=recommended heat set opening). That's 0.062" wider than 0.080" & prior to post-heat-set gapping. The article goes into substantial detail as to what is trying to be simultaneously achieved: 30 psi wall pressure + max installation & operating stress etc.

Turns out the OS-56 ring has a smaller gap too, but not to this same proportionate degree. Which leads one to wonder if the commercial RC engines are happy with what must equate to less than 30 psi. 

Anyway, I wont further divert your build thread, but if you could elaborate on your method so I can hopefully compare apples & apples, I'll do my best to show the results in a dedicated post on this subject along with some plots that re-create the original article graphs.


----------



## xjs

Welcome back Brian!! It sounds as though you had a perfectly wonderful trip, and it was a great honor to have you come visit my little chip-shop. It was a special pleasure to have you explain your ring-making ideas & practice, which finally began to make sense to me. Seeing all the pics you took of your process helped a great deal, and I'm sure there would be others who would appreciate seeing them posted.

Now that you're through racking up the miles though I'll bet you're happy to be re-united with your Edwards, especially since it's so close to coming to life. As you've seen my motor isn't quite as well-developed, but I have great hopes for the New Year. Let's continue to compare notes, and maybe we'll have that R/C radial race yet!

All best from the Sandwich Isles,

m


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha - your interpretation of the machining sequence as described in the Forest Edwards plans is correct. No heat treating is involved nor is any necessary  because as you stated tension is achieved by closing the slot. I have no issue with the theory of making rings by this method but rather not being able to get the precision I desired with the equipment I have at hand. My chuck is a little worn and the jaws tended to splay a little at their extremities and I could not get the slot to close perfectly along its entire length. It was a little open at the end and I was also concerned at the possibility of movement in the chuck while machining resulting in less than perfect rings. I also don't much like the idea of parting off when there is a slot in the workpiece that could catch the parting tool and let all hell loose. If I had a new high precision chuck I may be telling a different story.
After turning the rings 5 thou. over bore size I snapped the rings in a splitting tool (see photo) I made and placed them on jig to hold the gap open by 80 thou. and then heat treated them as in previous post - photo. The heat treating process simply relaxes the molecular structure of the cast iron to its "normal" state so that there is now tension when the gap is closed as opposed to having to apply force to open them to put them on the heat treating mandrel.
After being heat treated (I was fortunate to have access to a temperature controlled oven) the rings were held in a closed state in in the 5 thou. oversize tube of the grinding jig and the precisely fitting tube slid onto the jig and a clamping cap tightened up to hold them concentric and compressed ready for grinding to exact bore size as shown in an earlier post. After grinding they are placed in the cylinder and carefully gapped with a feeler gauge to a clearance of 4 thou. As far as wall pressure etc. is concerned I would not have a clue as I have no engineering training and tend to look at things in practical sense and apply what I think will work (rightly or wrongly) to the problem at hand.
There is no denying that of all the components of the Edwards it is the rings that I have spent the most time on but I have now finished grinding all the rings and have assembled the engine and have excellent compression on all five cylinders.
The compression is so bouncy I think it is going to need a fairly gutsy electric starter to spin the engine over. I am confident that if the engine won't start it won't be from lack of compression but because of screwing up something else.
I know plenty of people seem to get their engines running with rings made by the Trimble method but to my purely practical way of thinking it has two major drawbacks being imprecise temperature control for heat treating and machining rings to size then opening the gap and heating which has the potential for creating slightly out of round rings.
Anyhow! I guess the method that works for the individual is the best.

I hope you can understand the ramblings  - cheers Brian


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

*beer*Hi Michael - that was a fun and informative evening in your work shop. I still owe you a couple of beers and hope I can repay you with a visit to my shop at some future time. Thank you so much for your hospitality.
     I have now finished all the rings and assembled the engine and it suddenly hit me, it is finished, the Edwards Radial is actually finished so what on earth am I going to do now! Well actually there is still a bit of tinkering - make a test bed - organise oil and fuel tanks - source a glo plug starter and find a nice gutsy electric starter. I don't fancy trying to start it by hand because even just flicking it over the prop will bounce back on compression and crack the knuckles so I don't dare think what a backfire might do to the digits. And of course who knows what lies ahead when the crunch comes to seeing if it really will run.
     It doesn't seem much to do but with family commitments at Christmas and some grand kid minding in January time will slip by again. Retirement has been so busy I don't know how I ever found time to work! 
     I know this has nothing specific to do with the engine but my daughter gave me a radio control transmitter and receiver for my 70th Birthday and I bought Aerofly RC7 flying simulator software and loaded it on my computer and have mated it to the actual control transmitter and it is amazing how it is actually like flying a RC plane. It will be great for honing flying skills if I eventually get around to having the intestinal fortitude to put the Edwards in a plane. In any case it is great fun and I will probably get a slow cheap plane to practice actual flying on.

Cheers from Downunder - Brian  Thm:


----------



## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Hi Petertha - your interpretation of the machining sequence as described in the Forest Edwards plans is correct...cheers Brian



 Thanks for taking the time to explain & all the best on your successful start-up. Let me digest this info into my comparison. Look for a separate post on the Trimble calc I'm still messing with. As mentioned, I suspect your HT opening distance is proportionately quite similar to a commercial (OS) 4S engine I had access to, so hopefully your 'bouncy compression' feel will yield equally good results.

 Last question - did you replicate the ring axial thicknesses that the plans called for? (example 0.030" thickness for compression rings). And ditto question for thickness & V-recess profile of oil rings?


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha, I made the rings as per plan dimensions. The only slight adjustment was to cut the circumference groove around the oil ring 2.5 thou. deeper to adjust for the amount of cast iron removed during grinding. 

Cheers Brian


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all - just a quick note about the Edwards progress.
Getting to attempted startup has been delayed by being side tracked with assorted family commitments and the usual overload of all sorts of social and important trivia that retirees seem to be subjected to.
Non the less start up should not be to far away. My involvement in building a test running bench seemed to get way out of hand and has finished up almost as involved as the engine itself. What could have been a simple plank of wood has turned out to be hours of milling and drilling and tapping some 8mm aluminium plate.   I have purchase a glow plug driver and have 5L of methanal just waiting to be ignited.
I will post some photo's of the finished setup in the near future.

Cheers Brian - :wall:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all radial engine fans - well after a little over four years of on and off turning, milling,tapping, grinding, tube bending and jig and tool making my first ever engine is complete and hopefully ready to run. Behind the aluminium cover on the mount are two 4.8v NiMH batteries and a glow plug driver. One battery is for the driver electronics and the other (a higher capacity one) lights the glow plugs.
The socket on the panel is for pugging in another 4.8v battery to provide extra capacity during starting (it is then unplugged) and the red led indicates when the glow plug driver is on. Behind the round hole is the switch on the glow plug driver to switch it on and off. It should only need to be on during starting and low RPM running. The mount itself will be bolted to a piece of wood that can be clamped or bolted to bench. The lever at the rear is the throttle so that I don't have to get to close to the propellor to adjust RPM. The large tank is for fuel and the small one for oil.
All that remains before attempting starting is a trip to Adelaide to purchase some nitro methane and suitable synthetic oil and an electric starter. I have already sourced some methanol. Recommended percentage of nitro methane in methanol is 3% to 5%.
If startup is successful I will try and post a video if I can figure out how to do that.

Cheers all - :big:  see attached pics.


----------



## xjs

Brian, that is a fine, FINE looking engine. It looks as though it's doing 5000 rpm when it's just sitting there and imagining the way it's going to sound is a pleasant way to spend time. That's a terrific and sturdy-looking test rig, too.  just as soon as I know it's fired up I'll be raising a glass or two in your direction. Four years and a lot of patience well spent!

My own Edwards has some catching up to do -- life, and it's partner, has been a bit distracting since last we met. But I'll be back to the bench very soon, and that Anglo/Aussie air race is still in the cards. 

Meanwhile, thanks for setting such a great example. 

Cheers,


----------



## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> ... to purchase some nitro methane and suitable synthetic oil and an electric starter. I have already sourced some methanol. Recommended percentage of nitro methane in methanol is 3% to 5%..


Beautiful work. You likely already know about all this but just in case... 'grades' of both methanol & nitro-methane very important for successful starting & running of glow engines. When its off-spec, it can make for very frustrating experience. I've even experienced this with good commercial RC fuel gone bad over time because the recipe is quite hydroscopic. What complicates matters is subjective labelling: industrial grade, fuel grade, premium garde.. So try & delve into what you are buying if its off the shelf. You can google some of the RC fuel manufacturers because they typically cite their ingredient specs as example below. Ifthey could get away with lower purity, then they would... but they can't & therefor don't 

http://www.odonnellracing.com/about/

I know the Edwards is primarily 'methanol' fuel because the oil pump takes care of lube as opposed methanol/oil premix RC fuel. But another issue to think about is compatibility of the small% oil in your methanol with your choice of circulating oil (if I understand your plan).

IMO a safer solution, maybe just until the engine is running & dialed in, is to buy a gallon of RC fuel. Its available in 0% - 40% nitro-methane & yes will have some typically synthetic and/or castor oil. But if you do the volumetrics & add methanol to this, you will arrive at the target specs. This gives you a bit of latitude if you want to tweak the nitro content which helps with starting & idling particularly. If you can find a supplier of 'FAI' fuel, that has no nitro in it, but takes care of the quality issue. There may well be a cost add, but you'd be surprised. We used to do homebrew mixing & basically threw in the towel because the cost differential just didn't make sense anymore (and nothwithstanding storage danger etc).


----------



## petertha

Not sure how close Bruce is to you, but at least on the same side of the planet. He knows all about F3D racing which consumes 'FAI' fuel (no nitro) & other racing classes at typically 15% nitro. He could likely direct you to some suppliers close to you. Hopefully there is a solution in there for you.

http://bigbruceracing-public.sharepoint.com/


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha,

Thank's for the fuel info. I had a look at the O'Donnell Racing site and we have a business running an almost identical model in Adelaide only an hours drive away. They are a specialist motor sport supplier and also have a hobby section dedicated to model fuel and oils and claim their methanol is extremely pure and so fresh it is never more than a few days old as they are almost next door to the manufacturer. They have nitro methane available in 1 litre lots and are also a distributor for Coolpower oils. I was aware of Big Bruce Racing who appears to have a nice little niche for those who "have a need for speed". I have one of his models on my flight simulator and it requires lightning fast reflexes just to keep it in sight and from being imbedded in the ground. Good training though!
Future developments will be posted.  

Cheers Brian


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all radial enthusiasts,
Finally the Edwards is firmly bolted to his very own folding, portable test running bench. All that is required now is to fuel and oil up and get a starter motor, cross the fingers and see if I can get him to run. I have a very busy schedule this week but this should all happen if not this week certainly next. I have posted some photo's of the set up and next post will report as to whether a successful run has been achieved or otherwise.

Cheers all - Brian     scratch.gif


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## petertha

Looks great. Best of luck & keep us posted.
ps - when I first saw that gloss finish on your test bench, I assume the was the 'castor oil mist' finishing system from some extended bench running already


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## xjs

Wow.  I've slept on less comfortable benches than that.  What a beauty.  And the motor is a jewel.  I trust the Australian media has been properly alerted that something very special is about to happen in Murray Bridge.

All best, Brian -- and keep your fingers clear.

m


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Michael and Petertha and all - thanks for the good wishes - they worked

On Friday I purchased an electric starter but the flexible cone would not engage the prop. hub so I had to machine up a spinner (see pics). The thread is left hand so that it is being tightened when starting.
This morning was spent going over the Edwards checking valve clearances and filling the fuel and oil tanks and setting the carby to manufactures recommended positions for needle valve and throttle opening for starting. By now it was lunch time and after a very quick lunch it was back to the Edwards to see if it was going to run.
With the starter engaged on the spinner my head was full of teenage memories trying to get small single cylinder Taipan diesels and Glo-Chief engines to run with more often than not the only result being cut fingers from backfiring propellors.
With emotions running high it was with much trepidation that I pressed the starter button and wonder of wonders the Edwards started immediately and almost scared the sh-t out of me. Gathering my senses I checked that the oil was being pumped to the engine and scavenged from the sump - all OK there so proceeded to run at various RPM settings for about five minutes including just ticking over at idle and nothing but nothing sounds like a radial particularly at low RPM.
By this time some neighbours had come over to check things out and I got side-tracked talking to them and forgot to switch off the glow driver (duh!) and flattened the batteries so could not restart it for them. The batteries are on charge now so should be able to have another run tomorrow.
I will post some pics. of the Edwards running and a movie when I figure out how to do that.

Cheers for now - more to come - Brian  woohoo1


----------



## Swifty

Well done Brian, the engine looks very impressive. Isn't it funny, we put in a lot of work and care into building an engine, make sure everything is set up correctly, but are still surprised that it runs  I'm looking forward to the video.

Paul.


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## petertha

Congrats. That must be a thrill. Well deserved & way to go.
(And what a unique spinner solution!)


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## Brian-in-Oz

Thanks for your interest and comments Paul. I see you are well on the way with a Howell V4 and I will be following with interest. It looks great. Once the novelty of playing with the Edwards has worn off (if it ever does) I will be looking for another engine to build and the Howell looks like being on the short list. I wouldn't mind doing a flat four either if I could find some good plans for one.
The Edwards was actually my first engine build and I feel I have learned so much from the experience and now feel much more confident than I did when starting on it. Keep up the good work.

Cheers Brian  Thm:


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## ozzie46

Oh man! What an accomplishment! Can't wait for the video.

  Ron


----------



## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> I wouldn't mind doing a flat four either if I could find some good plans for one.


 
Here is an option. I have some of Jungs plans & they are quite complete, metric, suspect off 3D cad model & appear to have 'it runs' track record.

http://www.cad-jung-shop.de/epages/62479729.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62479729/Products/00-Z0004-0

http://www.cad-jung-shop.de/epages/...729/Categories/Baupläne/Bauplane_Modellmotore


----------



## Swifty

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Thanks for your interest and comments Paul. I see you are well on the way with a Howell V4 and I will be following with interest. It looks great. Once the novelty of playing with the Edwards has worn off (if it ever does) I will be looking for another engine to build and the Howell looks like being on the short list. I wouldn't mind doing a flat four either if I could find some good plans for one.
> The Edwards was actually my first engine build and I feel I have learned so much from the experience and now feel much more confident than I did when starting on it. Keep up the good work.
> 
> Cheers Brian  Thm:



Brian, you certainly pick a challenge for your first engine, but it was executed with great skill. 

The links that Petertha has mentioned are the engines that I have been looking at for the next build.

Paul.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Thanks for the link info. and accolades guys.
I have had a look at the Modelltechnik link and some real interesting engines there. I was particularly taken by the 165cc OHC V8 with reduction gear drive to the prop. What a lovely looking low profile design but no mention of what 
type of ignition. I guess glow would work and if you want a gas engine with spark ignition sort it out yourself.

Addendum: Had a better look at the parts list and Glow plugs are listed so it is glow plug ignition. 

But calm down Brian, you haven't even run the Edwards for ten minutes yet. First things first.

Cheers Brian   :shrug:


----------



## Stieglitz

Hi Anthony,
               Very interested in your build,top skills and yes more pictures please.
Cheers and Thanks.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi all radial fans - here is a link to a video of my recently completed Forest Edwards Radial running. This is only the second startup and I am still using oil in the fuel and have not yet played with the slow running carby settings. I won't bother with this fine tuning until run in and no oil in the fuel.

Cheers and enjoy - Brian

https://youtu.be/nvmaAWSJdRI


----------



## jimjam66

Man that sounds sweet!  Well worth four years of slog just to hear that, I'll bet!


----------



## Swifty

Very nice Brian, if that bench had wings, it may take off.

Paul.


----------



## petertha

Beautiful radial soundtrack, Brian. Its a keeper. Congrats again!

- assume this is your glow plug drive battery? What did you end up using for cells? Is it on all the time or just for starting?

- any idea how the heads are comparing in terms of relative temperature to one another, or is it still just settling in? I often hear the lower cylinders run a bit richer & cooler all thing equal if there is no diffuser type device.


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha - I am using a McDaniels glow plug driver which is contained in a compartment in the side of the engine mount you can't see. Two batteries are also in this compartment. One 4.8v pack the same as the one you can see in the video and another smaller capacity 4.8v receiver pack that powers the glow driver. In a RC plane the driver can be powered off of the receiver to switch on when it is most required (i.e. at low RPM) and this could be triggered from the throttle servo or even when landing gear is lowered. In bench running it can be manually switched on or off.
The battery you can see in the video is another 4.8v pack which plugs in (as recommended by McDaniel) and acts in parallel with the onboard glow plug battery just to provide extra battery capacity for starting - it is then un-plugged. Helpful if the engine was reluctant to start I guess. I made up all of the battery packs myself from tagged Sanyo eneloop cells and so far have not had to recharge them.
As regards to cylinder temperature I have noticed that after running the lower ones are a little cooler than the upper ones. Apparently some of Forest Edwards later engines were fitted with a fan diffuser in the inlet manifold (also spark ignition).
It has crossed my mind as to the possibility of trying to add a diffuser some time in the future. Maybe a magnetic coupling - anyhow something to think about.
Thanks again for your interest and input to the project.

Cheers Brian    Thm:


----------



## Foozer

All I can say is - - Wow - -


----------



## petertha

Brian-in-Oz said:


> Hi Petertha - I am using a McDaniels glow plug driver which is contained in a compartment ...The battery you can see in the video is another 4.8v pack which plugs in (as recommended by McDaniel) and acts in parallel with the onboard glow plug battery just to provide extra battery capacity for starting - it is then un-plugged.Cheers Brian


 
By 'McDaniels', do you mean their pre-packaged 5-cyl glow driver like link? Or do you mean you rigged a multi-plug harness to a more conventional McD glow driver unit + added extra maH capacity pack?

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Toys/On-Board-Glow-Driver-System5C-McDaniel-RC-Electronics/0716416247518


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Petertha - it is the dedicated five cylinder one purchased direct from Sonictronics. Hank at Sonictronics was extremely helpful in explaining the system and how it worked before I made the decision to buy. It works exactly as he explained.

Cheers Brian   ;D


----------



## petertha

Thanks. Now I'm glad I asked. I didn't even know these beasts were offered. 
http://www.sonictronics.com/xcart/home.php?cat=308

I've heard of do-it-yourself circuits floating around that a
accomplish something similar (what looks like high speed voltage switching among plugs), but the price seems reasonable to me for multi-cylinder plug & play box.

They are every insistent about 4.8v Ni* round cell technology which is a bit unfortunate with all the cheap & high maH capacity Lipo's out there, but it is what it is. 4.8v puts it right in the middle of too-low 1S-3.7v & too-high 2S-7.4v lipo. There's probably a workaround, but Ni cells are still kicking around.


----------



## gus

Hi Brian,

Great engine.
Gus dreaming about building this superb radial engine. Evaluating my current skill level and patience to check I can qualify to build this engine. Meanwhile will buy the plans to drool and dream at. Please advise plan source.After the current Howell V-2,may take a peek at V-4 plans.
You are my hero!!!th_wav


----------



## petertha

gus said:


> Meanwhile will buy the plans to drool and dream at. Please advise plan source.


 
You don't have to buy the plans Gus. They are  available for free (legitimately) to download as PDF. I got mine from Yahoo Groups R&R (radial & rotary) which, I believe has the latest revision# (A08a). You do have to join or subscribe to the Group to grab them, but there is no cost to that either. Maybe someone knows of a similar alternative resource, but if you are stuck we can probably upload somewhere accessible. Its 2.04MB in size. They are drawn by Robert Sigler in 2D, but my understanding was 'proved out' in 3D cad.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R_and_R_engines/info


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Gus - first time in my whole life I have been anyones hero but thank you for your comments and interest. If you have any problem sourcing the Edwards plans as described by Petertha let me know and I will email them to you or post a memory stick with the plans (no charge). I am currently in New Zealand (no, not Marlin fishing) and will be back home in Oz. on July 7th. The plans are on my home computer not on the laptop I travel with.

Cheers Brian       :idea:


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Hi to anyone still reading this post.

I have now started the Edwards many times and consider it "run in".
No longer mixing any oil with the fuel and is running nice without spewing any oil out of the exhausts messing up my running bench.

Current project is a cam grinder with future engine (s) in mind. This is pretty much a do as I go project but if anyone is interested I could start a post.

Cheers all and keep those projects rolling along.Thm:


----------



## Buchanan

Yes  I have been following your thread all along, very pleased for you thar it runs so well.


----------



## michael-au

I would like to see a build log for a cam grinder
It is something I am interested in building as well 

Thank you
Michael


----------



## Maxine

Great build log.  Thanks for posting!


----------



## Brian-in-Oz

Many thanks to all who showed interest and made comments and suggestions during the building of my Forest Edwards Radial and to Buchanan, Michael-au and Maxine for their recent posts. 
   Particular thanks to LADmachining for starting this thread and I apologise for jumping in on it. At the time I was brand new to HMEM and somewhat ignorant of protocol.
   And to Michael in Hawaii also building a Edwards Radial for extending such wonderful hospitality when we visited in late 2014. Several hours was spent in his immaculate workshop discussing different aspects of an Edwards build over a few cans of the local nectar.
   Now it is time to move on to another project and I will start a new thread under the title of Cam Grinder on The Go as the design is mostly in my head and I will be sourcing bits and pieces as I go along.

Cheers and thanks for the support. th_wav


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## daddio

do you have any pics of the valve assembly? What material did you use to make the guides/seats?


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## Stieglitz

Hi Anthony, Thanks again for the photo updates,looking forward to completion and runup.
Cheers
Allen.


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Daddio - valve seats are cut directly in 7075 aluminium heads and valve guides are phosphor bronze.
Page 8 of build has pics of valve guides.
Page 14 & 15 valve seats and valve seat cutter.
Page 17 head and valve assembly.
Cheers Brian  :thumbup:


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## hammerhead2825

Hi all I'm looking for an appropriate carburetor for my Edwards 5 radial that I'm building. Brian's thread mentioned a Perry 2100, but I cannot find one. I think that model was discontinued. Any help is greatly appreciated. Ken


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## mayhugh1

Hi,
Check here:

http://www.perrypumps.com/prod01.htm#super

It's listed in the top application chart.
Terry


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## Brian-in-Oz

Hi Ken,
when I discovered that the Perry # 302 or #205 listed in the Edwards plans were no longer available I emailed Gary Connelly at Perry Carbs. and described the engine I wanted to use it on and he recommended the Perry 2100. Gary was extremely helpful and within a couple of hours emailed back and said it was on its way to Australia and I received it in a few days. In my experience this carby has proved ideal for the Edwards Radial.
As Terry says the 2100 is in fact still listed.
Good luck with the Edwards - it is a very satisfying project.

Cheers Brian:thumbup:


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## hammerhead2825

Thank you Terry, I've been following your threads on the T-18 and Merlin engines. Beautiful work on both! You sir are a master craftsman!


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## hammerhead2825

Thank you Brian; Have you started any more projects since the beautiful Edwards 5? So far I've got the majority of the main engine done from the crank to the rockers. Started on the intake /exhaust tubes this weekend. The tube bender works well. I copied yours and added a round rolling die as the follower. The Woods metal works amazing, I never even knew this existed. Just place in boiling water and presto! Thank you for all your helpful tips, someday I'll work up the nerve to try the piston rings. Ken
P.S. I'd send pics of my progress if I could figure out how.


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## hammerhead2825

I think this might work as a photo sharing site.


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## hammerhead2825




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## hammerhead2825

Hi Guys! It's been a busy year at work and didn't have a lot of free time to build on my Edwards 5. I'm currently into final assembly of the crankcase, and was curious as to how to get oil to the crank pin bearing. The bearing has an oil hole in the side, so possibly a hole in the master rod just below the oil tube coming thru the top of the crankcase? A little oil is better than none, right? Any input on this would be helpful and appreciated


hammerhead2825 said:


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hammerhead2825 said:


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## hammerhead2825

A shout out to Brian -in -Oz, Thanks for the "like"! Been trying to upload pics, with great difficulty (techno inept). It makes a great trophy on the stand I built for it, but alas it still doesn't make noise. My e-mail is [email protected] if anyone has any input or revisions on this engine. Thank you!


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## Brian-in-Oz

Reply for hammerhead 2825

Hi Ken (I guess that's your name from your email address) and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I wouldn't be to worried about oil supply to the crankpin and big end bearings if you have built your engine exactly to the plans.
The crankpin bearing is a needle roller and as such has plenty of space for oil to penetrate. Also the oil galleries in the crankcase supplied by the oil pump spray oil over the workings in the crankcase.
On my engine I am amazed at the amount of oil the pump circulates. I have opened the crankcase on my Edwards after running it for a while and there was plenty of oil covering the parts.
Unfortunately I don't have a build on the go at the moment as I got very involved with DIY house renovations after finishing the cam grinder but will get into something soon.
Your engine looks great and I am looking forward to seeing it run. 

Cheers Brian


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