# A Reply to Lurkers



## Kludge (Jan 12, 2009)

Gentles, we all started somewhere. Trust me, no one here was born with no less than 30 years experience on every shop machine known to mankind, and some that haven't even been invented yet. (They're elsewhere and are welcome to stay there.) Instead what's here is a bunch of old friends who for the greater part have never met and are highly unlikely to do so, and everyone here - including you and you and you - is part of the party. We're about enjoying the hobby and not taking ourselves too seriously.  

We pass information back and forth. We use our experience to help those with less experience, and listen when someone can help us. Everyone, beginner or not, has _something_ to offer. (Fer instance, I serve as a bad example. ) It may not even be directly related to machining but may be something that comes up in conversation that can help. Never be afraid to speak up! _Never!_

If you've never made swarf & chips yet, so what? You're here which says you have an interest. Ask questions if nothing else. As Rake60 stated in Marv's thread, there are no dumb questions ... though I admit sometimes the answers get a bit strange. (Witness what happened in Artrans' thread about rude people when someone (*ahem*) asked about why one would want to catch flies.) You may never turn anything in your life but as long as the interest is there, who cares? Actually, you're stuck here even if you lose interest ... kind of like Hotel California. 

So, speak up. Enjoy. Ask questions. Make observations and/or jokes. (Added points for doing all three at the same time.) 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Kermit (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm kinda sure that I am not the one to whom this post is directed.

But I agree with you one hundred percent Kludge. The NET ain't no place to be all shy and stuff. 

Well, that's my philosophy at least. I may never be famous but I act like I am every minute of the day. ;D 

Kermit


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## itowbig (Jan 13, 2009)

(quote)
(We're about enjoying the hobby and not taking ourselves too seriously. ) 

this is it on the money :bow: well put


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## tel (Jan 23, 2009)

*ONYA Cludgex!!!!*


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## baldrocker (Jan 24, 2009)

Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here!

There is no antidote once bitten by the latheing bug

A yatcht is a rich mans toy for poor men to play on,
a lathe is a way of making the rich man poor and
keeping the poor poor.

There is the right way, the wrong way, and the machinists way.
Anonymouse


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## Brian Rupnow (Jan 24, 2009)

Notice how all the answers are from the same 3% that always post----


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## Loose nut (Jan 24, 2009)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Notice how all the answers are from the same 3% that always post----



And?


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 24, 2009)

You can talk to yourself all you want but you get better answers if you talk to someone else. 

Jerry


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## jlmanatee (Jan 24, 2009)

Let us be silent, that we may hear the whispers of the gods.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Silence is true wisdom's best reply.

~ Euripides 

It's good to shut up sometimes.

~ Marcel Marceau ;D


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## Kludge (Jan 24, 2009)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Notice how all the answers are from the same 3% that always post----



Good point. So a challenge to the lurkers: *SAY SOMETHING!!!!!*

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## seagar (Jan 24, 2009)

O.K. Kludge I will say something !!!

I have now found the on/off switches on my new lathe & mill and now reading all the interesting info. in here every day so as to learn how to make something with them.When I do make somthing I will let you all know LOL. :big:

Ian


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## artrans (Jan 24, 2009)

you no I don't think there is a cure for this problem I have been in many clubs and it is always a certain group that seems to do and say more. I guess as long and what gets said helps someone it really does not matter. I for one get attached to certain members such as Brian and dreeves,and shred and captain Jerry to name a far of the more poplar ones.I look forward to there posts because for one thing I will learn something and there offer great wisdom and no how to the site. So really I do not see lurkers as a problem.


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

I think you misunderstand, artrans. Lurkers are NOT a problem. Not now, not ever. We'd just like them to speak up and let us know something about them. They are part of the family. They are that silent 97% that Marv tried to get talking in his related topic. 

Jerry said it well - "You can talk to yourself all you want but you get better answers if you talk to someone else." The 3% Brian mentioned would be more than happy to talk with that 97%, help them with issues, listen to ideas, learn from them (Yeah, folks; we do NOT know everything.), and just generally join in the madness. 

Something I learned a while back was that the person who sits back thinking about a problem rather than jumping in immediately is probably the one who has the best ideas. (Or, stated another way, if an idea sounds dumb but it works then it's not dumb ... and there's only one way to find out if it works.) I know that there's a lot of thinking going on but we never know about it. 

By the way, I've had more than my share of dumb ideas. Trust me on this. Not all worked, and a few of those that did shouldn't have, but they were worth trying anyway because I was out of "smart" ones. 

So ... anyone NOT part of the 3% care to speak up?

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## baldrocker (Jan 25, 2009)

Loose nut.
I second your "and"
BR


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

Loose nut  said:
			
		

> And?



And the idea of the game here is to get the lurkers out of lurk mode, even if it's just to recite the entire battle order of the former Soviet Union. Backwards.

And, since that's not happening, I would ask the moderaptors to lock, or preferably delete, this thread.

Thank you. have a nice day.

Kludge


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## Majorstrain (Jan 25, 2009)

96.999999999999999999999% now
I was enjoying lurking on this thread, until Kludge's reverse physiology drew me out ( lock the thread indeed) :bow:

Nothing to report , I've only made a 3" boring head and a replacement part for the Bridgeport so far. 
There's plans for a 1/3rd scale 9 cylinder Gnome monosoupape rotary in the draw ;D, I'll have something to say when that gets underway.

Well back to sit on the 3% - 97% fence Rof}

still enjoying the thread

Phil

P.s Any members in Perth, Western Australia? PM me, I'd like to find out about clubs and workshops here.


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## Kermit (Jan 25, 2009)

DON"T kill the thread. I love these kind of posts by members.

all the information is totally off topic for the club and that gives you a much more complete picture of WHO a person is. I know everyone here is a better machinist than me right now since I have yet to apply power to my lathe. When it comes to the other things in life, I'm even with the lot of you.

One post is not enough to be considered a member of anything ( my opinion).

When I was in school, taunting was all the rage!   Come on Men. Post something.

Are you SKEERED of the internet, or just afraid of your keyboard?  ;D

Perhaps you think you have nothing of interest to add or that we will not like it for some reason. WELL, those reasons never stopped me.


Mouth in gear and Brain out of Gas,
Kermit


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## artrans (Jan 25, 2009)

you no kludge you take one word i said and did not read the whole statment I agree it is fine how ever the site is used some people look some people post thats fine. as far as lock out the subject that is just childess avoid a subject it stead of dealing with. Kludge the point is someone will always how something to say sometimes good sometimes not so good . I do not care what subject you post try china lathe vs old american iron like sb you will have so many good and bad responses its a opinion for the most part. You take someone that has a 10ee which to me is a dream machine and then compare it to a grizzley or worse habor frieght and see the response but its the person using the machine that really makes the differnce. nothing against hf just using for a point.


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## terry1769 (Jan 25, 2009)

I'm a lurker. 

I'm in the process of building my shop. My tools have been in storage for almost four years now. Until I have the shop operational, I don't really have anything to contribute to the discussions. I am reading and learning though and look forward to actually getting started again so I'll have questions to ask and useful things to say. 

Until then, back to my dark corner. 

Terry


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## Cedge (Jan 25, 2009)

Kludge
An internet truism...
Lukers is lurkers until they ain't. Some will come into the light, but not until the light becomes irresistible. Others will forever stay in the shadows where things are safe and comfortable. Either way.... it happens for their own personal reasons.

Former and sometimes still a Lurker
Steve


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

Majorstrain  said:
			
		

> There's plans for a 1/3rd scale 9 cylinder Gnome monosoupape rotary in the draw ;D, I'll have something to say when that gets underway.



Oooh, do tell! Like in the Plans area. Inquiring minds want to know!

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

I know, Steve, but it's still worth a try. Heck, I'm a major lurker in several fora, though never quite 100%. If nothing else, if something is unclear, I'll ask one of my typical questions borne out of pure ignorance and ultimate stupidity (or idiocy, dependent on whose POV you prefer) - you know, the ones for which I have an exceptional level of talent. 

Anyway, point taken.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Cedge (Jan 25, 2009)

Kludge
Back when I traveled so much, I used a similar trick to get a conversation going at nearly any hotel bar I where I made an overnight stop. I sedlom meet a stranger and very few people intimidate me, so I hate sitting alone and drinking in silence.

Ask a local Bostonian (or wherever) the name of the local baseball stadium and he'll look at you like you have two heads. He will however give you a short answer. Cool... a live one and articulate. Where you got them going full tilt was to ask if was still called "The house that Ruth built". From there they simply couldn't resist giving you the area history, which often lead to hearing who was doing what in the local body politic.

After a bit it became apparent that I was playing up my ignorance a wee bit and an admission would follow. That was usually good for a laugh and before long you had a nice local sitting with you and enjoying the drink you just bought them. Admittedly, some places were tougher to break so the ignorance level had to be a bit more outrageous, but those are other stories for other times.

Steve


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## rake60 (Jan 25, 2009)

OK here's a management view of lurkers based on real time.

HMEM has 2128 registered members to date.
1564 of those members have never posted, or have posted and been deleted 
because we don't need to grow more hair, lose weight, extend an appendage
or care to see some teenager doing something strange. : 
The numbers are a little deceiving in that aspect.

Lurkers are as welcome here as active members.

Rick


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

rake60  said:
			
		

> we don't need to grow more hair, lose weight, extend an appendage
> or care to see some teenager doing something strange. :



Speak for yourself! Okay, I wear my hair shaved skin tight but I still need to lose 60 more pounds (if not more), would love to have at least one arm another 8" or so longer after failing to quite reach something that fell under the bench, and strange is the norm in Waianae. ;D



> The numbers are a little deceiving in that aspect.



Number lie! Or, that's the excuse I tried during an IRS audit. Somehow it didn't work. :-[



> Lurkers are as welcome here as active members.



I know. OTOH, I bet at least a few (Majorstrain, as an example) have something cool going on or can add to the pool of knowledge we have. But, as I told Cedge, point taken.

On the other hand, how will we gather statistics on the important questions in life such as their preferences vis-a-vis Scots vs Irish whiskey? Pepsi vs Coke? 

BEst regards,

Kludge ... still looking for the question the answer to which is 42.


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## Kludge (Jan 25, 2009)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> the ignorance level had to be a bit more outrageous, but those are other stories for other times.



Okay, so the ignorance level had to be something approaching what mine is normally. I can deal with this. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## ChooChooMike (Jan 25, 2009)

Kludge  said:
			
		

> And the idea of the game here is to get the lurkers out of lurk mode, even if it's just to recite the entire battle order of the former Soviet Union. Backwards.



I don't know an easy way to play it in reverse :big:

USSR/ Soviet National Anthem - Red Army Choir

[youtube=425,350]8MS2vZLW9Xk[/youtube]​
  :big: :big:


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## rake60 (Jan 25, 2009)

Oooo
That borders on politics.
We don't allow that here.

This is an American based site.
I believe Bill Murry's character in the movie Stripes put that into prospective with 
these words:

*"Our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. 
We are the wretched refuse, the underdog, we're mutts... 
but there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, 
that's more lovable than the mutt." * 

That is about as political as we are allowed to be. 

Rick


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## gmac (Jan 25, 2009)

Lurker reporting for duty.....

I'd comment here more often but as a noob to machining, model engineering and this forum I've encountered two major problems;

a. information overload; and
b. every time I force myself to make swarf I run into the old "but first I need this tool or this material" ..... skunked again

So if I'm not posting a lot it's because I'm suffering from what my best friend refers to as "butt lock". I'm by nature a person who collects and loves researching material, having started this new hobby by hording literature on the subject. 

It hasn't helped that the answers and guidance I've received here is so good, and the site is such a resource.....so I've resolved to stop researching and just mangle more metal, when I'm stumped I'll just bug you guys..... ;D

You can blame Kludge :big: :bow:

Garry


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## PhillyVa (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, the problem is where to start. I have been sitting here for 5+ days of lurking...my how time flies when your having fun. I have been on disability and recovering from cancer for the last 2.5 yrs. The company that I worked for 39 years decided to shut down :rant: on the last day of my chemo treatment ;D. My recovery is too slow but improving. I was the Headfiler there and got a nice package.

I have bought a CQ 6125 9X20 Chinese lathe...got a smokin' deal $599.00 can. a few months back. I'm waiting for our weather to warm up some as one of the sideaffects is I'm sensitized to the cold...my feet get like ice blocks. This has not changed much :wall:.

Anyhow when I get in to making chips I'm shure there will be questions and I know that there will be awnsers of all kinds.

I would like to comment on the workmanship here...*OUTSTANDING*

Thanks to Kludge for pulling me out of the woodwork.

Regards

Philly


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## Majorstrain (Jan 26, 2009)

Kludge said:
			
		

> (Majorstrain, as an example) have something cool going on or can add to the pool of knowledge we have.



Not gulty Kludge, I'm still learning from you guys and hanging over the shoulder of the guys in the workshop at work.
I haven't built an engine yet, just converting a plan for a beam engine into metric that was listed in another post.
That will be my first and I'll post the Metric plans when done. 



			
				Kludge said:
			
		

> Oooh, do tell! Like in the Plans area. Inquiring minds want to know!



Love to but can't - The plans are copyright to Stephen Wessel.
Below is a small excerpt from his construction notes
Attached is a pic he sent me.



			
				Stephen Wessel - A 1/3 scale model of the Gnome Monosoupape 9 cylinder rotary engine said:
			
		

> Introduction
> 
> By comparison to the later, much modeled Bentley BR2 or the contemporary 80Hp Le Rhone engines, the Gnome Monosoupape 100Hp is a relatively straightforward build. No castings are needed, nor induction pipes and there are fewer valve components. If modeled to 1/3 scale or larger, the sound of the engine will be very realistic and its speed similar to that of the full size version. The prototype of this design has flown a scale Sopwith Pup very successfully and continues to do so. (See articles in Engineering in Miniature Dec 06 & Jan 07)




Cheers Phil


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## Kludge (Jan 26, 2009)

gmac  said:
			
		

> Lurker reporting for duty.....



_Suck in that gut, sailor!_ Oh, wait. That's a mirror. Sorry! 

Anyway, you've come to the right place for information overload and sympathy regarding things still missing from inventory - tools, materials, beverages of choice, companions of choice (which is actually more my problem than anyone else's), shop heat or a means of reducing shop heat. 



> I'm by nature a person who collects and loves researching material,



That's butt lock? I'm in deep doodoo then, 'cuz I have far more research material than I could ever read in ten lifetimes. As I've mentioned elsewhere, my favorite "required reading" is the eBook versions of text books and the paperwork from patents, all prior to 1920 (Don't ask why that year; I don't know!) with the exception of some material on electronics that was printed as late as 1950 or so. But those are also the source of ideas that lead to some really cool things or questions that just might stump the experts. 

On the other hand, I'm at a standstill on research for my book since I can't get to the Smithsonian, National Archives, Wright-Pat AFB et al, and I can't afford anyone to go for me. I mean, it's not like I want them to go to Edwards AFB or Nellis AFB (more specifically to Groom Lake) or anything! 



> It hasn't helped that the answers and guidance I've received here is so good, and the site is such a resource.....so I've resolved to stop researching and just mangle more metal, when I'm stumped I'll just bug you guys..... ;D



That's the spirit!



> You can blame Kludge :big: :bow:



Garry, I'll take the blame for this quite willingly. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Jan 26, 2009)

PhillyVa  said:
			
		

> Thanks to Kludge for pulling me out of the woodwork.



My pleasure, Philly. 

We have an area for folks working with disabilities and you may want to check in there. GainInNM started it and it is gaining some love. 

On the questions vs answers issue ... I have a belief that there are answers here to questions no one has bothered asking. There are also answers that can satisfy a great number of questions, answers like "duct tape."

By the way, while the cause is different, my daughter also has the side effect of "icicle feet". For someone like her who used to be quite happy as a snow bunny, that is not a good thing. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Jan 26, 2009)

jlmanatee  said:
			
		

> Let us be silent, that we may hear the whispers of the gods.
> - Ralph Waldo Emerson
> 
> Silence is true wisdom's best reply.
> ...



But do you know the question the answer to which is 42? :big: :big: :big:

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Jan 26, 2009)

Majorstrain  said:
			
		

> Not gulty Kludge,


Guilt by association, Phil. No way around it. :big:



> I haven't built an engine yet, just converting a plan for a beam engine into metric that was listed in another post.



That in itself could be discussed in the Plans area since the metric-Imperial conversion isn't always pretty and 'tweeners show up in threaded items with unpleasant frequency. But then, Imperial in itself has both fractional and number sizes which adds to the fun. 



> Love to but can't - The plans are copyright to Stephen Wessel.
> Below is a small excerpt from his construction notes



Actually, you can post on it - observations, questions regarding how to build it, how a rotary engine works, etc. See? Lotz of kewl stuph!

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## hitandmissman (Jan 26, 2009)

OK, OK, I know the question for the answer 62 my waist size!! Oh Oh wait a minute that was 42. See that why I am a lurker. Eye sight going along with a lot of other things.


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## Kludge (Jan 26, 2009)

hitandmissman  said:
			
		

> OK, OK, I know the question for the answer 62 my waist size!! Oh Oh wait a minute that was 42. See that why I am a lurker. Eye sight going along with a lot of other things.



ROFLMAO! We're in the same boat, and it's taking on water fast! That 60 pounds I mentioned elsewhere that I need to lose ... that's an absolute minimum. Trying to balance that against my love of "local kine grinds" just isn't working as well as my doctor would like. Ah, well.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## jlmanatee (Jan 26, 2009)

Another lurker here. I thought I'd jump in again. 
 I have a situation and want to know if this happens to you all too. I start a project, then find that I need to make some tool for the project, then find I need to make an improvement to the mill or lathe before I can make the tool, then find I need to make a fixture for the improvement before I can use the mill or lathe, then ................
 Pretty soon I'm months behind on the project. Heck, I can't even remember what the project was. Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun. But I find it ironic.

- Jack


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## 1Kenny (Jan 26, 2009)

Well Jack, 
I don't think that will ever go away. The spot I am in is about how you described. My mill and lathes I had were just way too big to do smaller work. I sold them with the intent to get smaller machines as nothing was in my shop that would hold a #40 or smaller drill bit. Anything I did took more time to compromise or make a workholding fixture to get things done. So now I have a smaller mill/drill that fits my needs better than the old mill. Found a rotary table that will fit it with out having to make T nuts to fit the table. Haven't found a small lathe that excites me yet. The biggest thing I look for in the plans is the part that that says " this is a fun weekend project". When I read that I have to chuckle. My mind is telling me I should be able to make it in a year or year and a half.

 :big:

Kenny


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## cfellows (Jan 26, 2009)

jlmanatee  said:
			
		

> Another lurker here. I thought I'd jump in again.
> I have a situation and want to know if this happens to you all too. I start a project, then find that I need to make some tool for the project, then find I need to make an improvement to the mill or lathe before I can make the tool, then find I need to make a fixture for the improvement before I can use the mill or lathe, then ................
> Pretty soon I'm months behind on the project. Heck, I can't even remember what the project was. Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun. But I find it ironic.
> 
> - Jack



A common problem Jack. Gotta make a tool to make tool to make a tool to make a part for the project!

Chuck


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## rleete (Jan 26, 2009)

1Kenny  said:
			
		

> ...the part that that says " this is a fun weekend project". When I read that I have to chuckle. My mind is telling me I should be able to make it in a year or year and a half.



Heh. I'm glad I'm not the only one!


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## mklotz (Jan 26, 2009)

jlmanatee  said:
			
		

> Another lurker here. I thought I'd jump in again.
> I have a situation and want to know if this happens to you all too. I start a project, then find that I need to make some tool for the project, then find I need to make an improvement to the mill or lathe before I can make the tool, then find I need to make a fixture for the improvement before I can use the mill or lathe, then ................
> Pretty soon I'm months behind on the project. Heck, I can't even remember what the project was. Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun. But I find it ironic.
> 
> - Jack



Some of that is unavoidable but it's important to take note of your personal psychology when you encounter it.

For most people, motivation is most inflated by completing something. If a project languishes too long, there's a very good chance it will never be completed. The resulting effect on the psyche is not good. The project does not need to be perfect (or made in perfect adherence to established shop protocol) to be satisfying and motivational. 

I keep two project lists. One is actual engines and models I want to build and the other is production items - tools, jigs, fixtures and tool mods that will help to make future tasks easier or more accurate.

While building a model, I will divert to make a tool or jig that is *essential* to the job but, before doing that, I will try hard to "work around" the absence of the item, put it on my second project list, and just soldier on. (Actually, "working around" can be as creatively satisfying as making the missing item.)

Since I build mostly small models, when one is finished I'm ready for some less finicky work before I go back to single-pointing 0-80 screws, etc.. So, as a breather, I knock off a few items on the production project list. This approach works well for me since, with no model project waiting on the item, I'm motivated to spend the time to design and build the production item properly so it becomes a truly flexible addition to my tool arsenal.

After a few years of this regimen, I find now that most of the kit I need to make something is already in the arsenal and there is much less diversion while making an actual engine or model. Put another way, the number of "work arounds" diminishes and the craftsmanship level on the models increases. Both effects bolster the motivation level.


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## gmac (Jan 27, 2009)

Marv;
Thanks for your post - it's gold to me. This was the guidance I've needed for the past year of fumbling in the dark trying to get this hobby "over-center". Someone sticky this post for us noobs where we can find it first.

regards
Garry


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## mklotz (Jan 27, 2009)

Garry,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad it was of some help.

One of the satisfactions of this hobby is what it will teach you about your own mentality and personality quirks. If you're to do well, you must come to grips with your personality and adjust your work habits to fit with it. It's a process that's simultaneously frustrating and revealing but nonetheless essential.

It's much more fun than psychoanalysis but only (arguably) a bit cheaper.


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## gmac (Jan 27, 2009)

"but only (arguably) a bit cheaper"

not by much......but then I've only just started - the hobby not the analysis...!

Garry


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## putputman (Jan 27, 2009)

Marv, if you are like me, there is as much enjoyment in making tools & fixtures (that works) as there is in making some of these engines. I haven't found many of these tools or fixtures that haven't been used over & over.


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## baldrocker (Jan 27, 2009)

Majorstrain
For many years I could not get my head around how
rotary? engines worked. As they say a pic is worth a
thousand words.
BR


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## itowbig (Jan 28, 2009)

shoot im starting to like making tools more then the engines even though i have not made that much. alll the tooling ive made so far brings me much enjoyment. im not that good with my equitment but im sure one day i will be.


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## Artie (Feb 1, 2010)

Kludge  said:
			
		

> But do you know the question the answer to which is 42? :big: :big: :big:
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Kludge



Heya Kludge.... Im not sure but could the question relating to your answer be "what is the meaning of life?" Not sure if that is the correct question but its answer surely is '42'.... i just checked it with my slide rule.... :


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