# LaFrance



## xs4all (Aug 22, 2013)

i'm thinking of purchasing this very engine in the pic for 8000.00. would you guys say that's fair?

he's asking 16000.00+ yikes. he's biting at the 8000.00 i offered. what say y'all?

//frank


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## Shopguy (Aug 22, 2013)

Frank,
That is a lovely model.
Given the amount of time and effort that obviously went into this model maybe $16 k isn't too far out of line.  The big questions  being, does it work, how authentic is it, how well it's put together and whats the finish like.  Kinda hard to tell without actually seeing it in the flesh so to speak.  
One question you might ask, is it an estate sale? 
I've seen widows and families sell off Dad's stuff at fire sale prices and it just doesn't seem right to me.
My 2 cents worth.
Ernie J


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 23, 2013)

IMHO offering less than 60 % of asking price is low balling. and often considered an insult.  
Depending on who made it and the history behind it hard to say true value. 

I agree with Ernie the 16 K could be a much fairer price than your offer. 

Build one then you will have an Idea of worth and what goes into such an engine. 
Tin


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## canadianhorsepower (Aug 23, 2013)

If I was the seller and would get your offer
I would send you a full box of Exlax( laxative)
it would represent My feeling to your offerRof}Rof}


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 23, 2013)

This Item is being offered On ebay by mini steam a steam toy and model dealer. 

So I expect he bought it cheap relatively from someones estate and is trying to flip it or selling it for a fair commission . 



> Over 1,800 hours of machining went into making this model.



This a kit from coles a big model I see no pricing but say $500 for the kit. 

SOOOOOO  you think machinist wages should be valued at 4.16 an hour ??
Tin


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## kf2qd (Aug 23, 2013)

Once again it would seem that many here really don't understand how things get priced. If I want to sell something for price X and I only get an offer of 1/2 X then Either I have overpriced the item for the current market, or there is not much demand for the item.If I need the money, then I might be willing to sell for 1/2 X, otherwise i might choose to leave it on the shelf/in the box/ whatever. As with many items, just because someone put lots of hours into the making of it, it doesn't mean that it is worth any arbitrary figure for those hours. Perhaps the individual was overly anal retentive and every part had to be made three times to fit his personal reference of perfect or good enough.
Just like with machine tools. Just because something sold for Y 35 years ago really has little to do with the price today. And it is especially telling when some blighter obtains something at a very low price and then tries to preach to everyone else how valuable it is and then gets offended when no-one is willing to pay him $5000 because that is what it sold for new. New, it might have been worth it. But now, with different practices in the commercial shops, there is no demand for the item and if it doesn't sell for his price it is just a reflection of the current market.
If you have something for sale and no-one offers you your price for it, it probably means that the item is more valuable to you than it is to them. If you can get your 16,000 for an item like that, then more power to you. But if you can't it is no reflection on the desire for quality of the other person, it may just be that no-one has deep enough pockets to justify your price.
Kind of reminds me of the old cars sitting out in farm fields around the country. Farmers wouldn't sell them because someday they were going to be valuable. Over the years the cars rusted away from the ground up and eventually someone had to pay to have them hauled off as half the car was no longer there. Farmer thought they were valuable, but they were really junk. The price you may be offered today may be the best price you will ever be offered. And jsut because you invested 2000 hours doesn't mean that should affect the value. You might have also been piddling along and not getting much done because you had no need to get things done. That doesn't mean your hours are still worth minimum wage...


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## Philjoe5 (Aug 23, 2013)

I recently attended an auction (Cabin Fever) with model engines on the table  and saw some very nice working models sell in the neighborhood of $1000 - $1500 USD.  If you've ever built a model like one of these you also know that you might be able to make 2 or 3 of these in a year working full time.  So if you can manage to live on 3 x $1500 - expenses this all seems like a pretty easy way to make a lot of money:wall:

Let's face it, if you're doing this for the money, you're in the wrong place.  If you're doing it for self satisfaction, enjoyment, relaxation, mental challenge or just because you can then you'll never have a boring day.  What's better than that?

Today, I solved 2 problems in the shop that I've been dealing with for months - priceless!

Cheers,
Phil


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 24, 2013)

> Once again it would seem that many here really don't understand how things get priced


IMHO very unfair assumption. 

I agree supply and demand and current economic conditions can effect market price. 

Condition affects price.The better the condition of original item . The more value. 

 Age may or may not and could affect the price either up or down  or not at all. 

I also know the price at a yard sale , a flea market, e bay and sotherbies auction house in NYC will likely be greatly different for the same item. 

Time spent on a model or project certainly does affect value. 
The skill level and efficiency of the builder also factors in here. 
The mean wage of a machinist in the USA is about $20 per hour. This varies from state to state and with industry. 

Does this mean if I buy a pm research kit for $ 72 and machine it in 10 hours  I can sell the machined kit for $272  no because anyone can buy a premachined kit from PMR for $140. 

Something like a lafrance or a locomotive is certainly worth a whole lot more than a simple single cylinder oscillator because of the complexity and the time involved not only in machining but assembly. 

Hobby time or no IMHO it is an insult to value a machinist time at a few dollars an hour. 

Gary of Cabin fever fame packed up from the Kinzer flea market early Saturday morning because he was tired of people trying to low ball his prices  and give insultingly low offers. 

Offers  are part of buying and selling and a wise seller of used goods of prices high to leave room for negotiation. An experienced dealer will have a good idea of value going in and not price too high.  

An I do agree with phil this is a hobby were are not here to make money . But I would like to think that my tools and models will not be treated or valued and junk , toys or run of the mill  consumer products. 
As far as the value of the lafrance IMHO the asking price is probably on the high end of value. IIRC a Louis Chenot american LeFrance went at auction for about what the seller is asking. And the offer made is on the low end.  Ultimately the market value is what the two agree upon.


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## Paulsv (Aug 24, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> Hobby time or no IMHO it is an insult to value a machinist time at a few dollars an hour.



True, but just because a machinist spent a lot of time on it doesn't mean there is a market for it at a price that would compensate him for his time.  I see this all the time in car restoration too.  Very talented restorers spend thousands of hours and dollars restoring a car, and end up spending twice what the restored car is worth on the market, even without valuing their time.  It doesn't mean that they are not extremely talented craftsmen, who could sell their time for a lot of money.  It just means that they chose to spend their time on the restoration project for reasons other than turning hours into dollars.  If someone offers them the market value for the car, they shouldn't be insulted because the offeror thinks their time is worthless.  If I spend thousands of hours making an exact recreation of a Briggs and Stratton 3 HP lawnmower engine, does it make it worth $16,000, even though you can buy one at the lawnmower shop for $300?  Personally, I think that even $8,000 is a very high price for the model in question.  It's worth what someone will pay for it, and apparently the seller doesn't have any higher offers, or he wouldn't be considering the $8,000 offer.


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## OrangeAlpine (Aug 24, 2013)

An item is worth what you think it is worth, no less, no more, unless you plan to sell it at a profit.  That said, there has to be a special place in Hell for a fellow that makes offers, then walks away when they are accepted.

Bill


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## xs4all (Aug 29, 2013)

he's a toy (steam) dealer of sorts, and he did accept the offer of 8,000.00. i wasn't trying to insult anyone as i knew he wasn't the builder. if the builder was offering this model at a given price, i certainly wouldn't have dared insult him w/ an offer of 1/2 the asking price, but i have a feeling this was purchased for much less than 16,000.00. i could be wrong, but i don't think so.

thanks so much for the replies gentlemen. i turned down the sale, as i'm in toronto and he's in ohio, and between the shipping and import charges it blew my budget (sadly).


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## xs4all (Aug 29, 2013)

believe me when i say, i would gladly pay 16k for such a working beauty if i had that kind o' money to burn (truly).


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 29, 2013)

This did turn into quite the debate. I would not be  able to justify the 8K for a model myself. 

but if one wants such a model you either need to buy the kit for some $$ and a lot of time or put out lots of dollars. 

IMHO do not make an offer unless you are planning to follow through and always count shipping and other costs . Auctions often have buyers premiums and taxes added in . 

In some ways on line auctions take location out of the equation in some ways it is still a factor.
Tin


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## xs4all (Aug 29, 2013)

IMHO do not make an offer unless you are planning to follow through and always count shipping and other costs . Auctions often have buyers premiums and taxes added in .

let us not draw too many conclusion here 

he was offering delivery while we were negotiating, so import fees weren't a concern. he changed his mind - perfectly reasonable given the geography, etc


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## xs4all (Aug 29, 2013)

...an' yes, quite a debate indeed


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