# Making a Boiler for a 3 1/2" Gauge Locomotive



## SBWHART (Apr 18, 2010)

Hi Chaps

I've been putting this off long enough.

But first a warning:- boilers are pressure vessel and are dangerous they are not to be taken lightly, if they fail they can cause serious injury, so due care needs to be taken when you build one. Make sure you understand the boiler regulations that apply to your part of the world, and if you have no experience of boiler building, find someone who is that can guide and mentor you.

I did a lot of research on boiler building, to some extent this was a mistake as I found a lot of contradiction in design and methods, to such an extent that I was seriously looking into buying a commercially made boiler, but this would have cost up to £1500, but I began to realise that methods and thinking have changes over the years and talking to club members and the clubs boiler inspector cleared a lot of the uncertainty up, and with encouragement I decided to have a go at building my own.

To help you Guys to understand some of the term used in the UK I've done a Crap-O-Cad of the type of boiler I will be making.







By way of explanation of some of the terms:-

Stays:- addition support given to flat services 

Supper Heater Tubes:- these are large tubes through which pipe work runs that takes "wet steam" collected in the steam dome back through fire box to give it an extra dose of heat.

Throat Plate:- front part of the outer fire box

Foundation Ring:- This fills the space between the outer and inner fire box

Front and Fire box Tube plate:- These are the plates that the Flue and Superheater tubes fit too.

I think the rest of the bits are self explanatory.

I bought a boiler kit for my Loco from Reeves it cost £290.

This is the kit of parts.






Everyone I've spoken to has given me the same bit of advise:- the key to good boiler making is in the preparation, so over the next week or two I'm going to spend time preparing for the build.

The adventure begins

Stew


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## arnoldb (Apr 18, 2010)

;D - I just hopped on the bandwagon; Looking froward to your build Stew!
Kind regards, Arnold


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## ozzie46 (Apr 18, 2010)

You have my utmost attention!

   Ron


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## tmuir (Apr 18, 2010)

Wow, that's going to be a serious boiler.
I'm still building myself up to make a pot boiler to run at 15PSI. :big:
Look forward to watching this progress


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## GWRdriver (Apr 18, 2010)

Stew,
I'll be watching with great interest as I will eventually have the same boiler to build.


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## slick95 (Apr 18, 2010)

Stew,

Very interested here   

I will be following close...

Jeff


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## bearcar1 (Apr 18, 2010)

Hey Stew, thanks for the CoC drawings, well done. Those copper pieces are just begging to be assembled and I am certain they will make a handsome pressure vessel when you are finished.'

BC1
Jim


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## zeeprogrammer (Apr 18, 2010)

I'm going to be watching too. And thanks for the definitions and labels!

By the way...does your drawing say 'MAY 2010'? I thought we were just a few hours behind...not weeks. ;D


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## SBWHART (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks Guys

Tmuir this kettle will have a 8o psi working pressure and be tested at 160 psi 

Zee you've spotted deliberate mistake No 1 it should read March at least I got the year right ;D

Thanks again for your interest

Stew


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## cfellows (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey Stew, this looks like an interesting project. For me, I think I passed the point of no return for building a locomotive when I turned 50. However, I still have hopes of building a small, low pressure boiler one day. Since I'm now 66, I guess I better get started soon!

Chuck


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## ozzie46 (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm 63 Chuck, and I'm trying it. Give it a go. It'll be fun.

  Ron


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## Dan Rowe (Apr 19, 2010)

This will be very interesting. It looks like the boiler tube is about 3" which is a nice size boiler.

Dan


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## doubletop (Apr 19, 2010)

Stew

Looking forward to this; as doing one of these has crossed my mind since I did my 3" vertical and got into bashing the cr*p out of copper sheets.

The plates look all clean and tidy. Is it a kit? or are you mighty well organised?

Have a you a copy of Martin Evans Model Locomotive Boilers book? A good read and full of usefull info.

Pete


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## SBWHART (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Guys

Chuck/Ron :- I'm a young 61 ;D

Dan:- The boiler tube is 3 1/2" and yes it will come out a nice size, small enough for a one man lift. 

Pete:- Yes the parts came as a kit with the end plates pre- flanged but to be honest the flanging is a bit rough full of hammer marks and not to tidy corners I'm going to make some flanging plates and tidy them up myself.

I have a copy of Martin Evans book and very interesting it is too, its only fault is that its not up to date with current practices, as you read up on boilers you find inconsistencies between authors that seem to get greater with time, it can get very confusing. The best current boiler information I found was an article in Model Engineer 9th May 2008 by Julia Old it describes how she used modern methods, with expert guidance to make her first boiler, its a very well written article, and she wasn't too embarised to explain her mistakes and how they were corrected, its a must read for anyone building their first boiler.

Stew


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## SBWHART (Apr 20, 2010)

OK Made a start not to exciting but every journey begins and ends with a step.

You may think I'm sad but I like to plan out jobs as best I can before I start, I use to make my living designing building and testing items that could be a bit hazardous, if you didn't get your preparation right:- I just can't get out of the habit.

So after much reading and talking to people and listening to advice, I made out a list of items I thought I may need I may end up not using everything but its better to be prepared than wanting. I started my To Do List I'll add to this as thing progress, and as putting a boiler together is complicated and the order of assembly is important:- I listed the order I would assemble the boiler, I may combine some of the operations or even change things round a bit as they go but the shear act of making the list helps make things clearer in your mind:- its all part of the learning curve.

Her's the lists






The first job I thought I would tackle was to make some clamps I want to leave them outside to go rusty so that the solder wont stick to them to easy so the sooner I get them made the better.

A rummage through the scrap box turned these bits of material up.






I burn the paint off the long bars and just squared the ends and sides up in the mill and drilled and tapped them as for toolmakers clamps, they will get a bit of heat so nothing too posh, as long as they will do the job.

The shorter bars again were squared up and a slot milled across and the end drilled and tapped M5, I rounded the jaws off in two of these so that I could grip the rim of the tube without the sharp edges damaging the soft copper.






I was going to make a pair of tongs but them I remembered these.






I bought them at a car boot sale many years ago, don't know why I just thought they would be handy one day, well their day has arrived ;D

Cheers

Stew


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## 4156df (Apr 20, 2010)

Stew,
Looking forward to the build. Glad to meet a fellow list maker! I've noticed the older I get, the more valuable the lists are.
Dennis


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## SBWHART (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks Denis I make lists of lists

 :wall:

Thing have been a little slow, bin on Gardening Duties and looking after our grand son.

Any way made some progress with a backward step thrown in, more about this later.

Made the former for the backhead plate you this former for the throat plate as well. First square it up so that you've got four good edges on each face, then blue it up and mark it out on the mill.






Then centre pop the line to give you something to work too.






Then mill out the shape I used the rotory table this time, it just fitted the clamping is not too elligant, but hay:- its effective.






Then it was just a matter of tidying up the plates on the former her they are all done with the formers.






Now to drill the tube plates now I know that "drilling soft copper can be tricky", :wall: I've seen lots of pics where guys have mounted tubes plates onto lathe face plates so that the holes can be bored because "drilling soft copper can be tricky" :wall: but for some reason I decided to do the drilling on my pillar drill, its not a bad pillar drill but its not as good as my mill for drilling, I clamped the smoke box tube plate onto a plank of wood and drilled the first 3/8" hole all was well, now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :wall: second ran out nearly into the first hole that I drilled, I stopped and tried rectifying it by drilling from the other side but this only made things worse:- strike one tube plate 

:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

OK it's a scrapper:- so decided to drill the rest of the holes any way to perfect the best method.

Over too the mill:- this is the set up, the plate was position over a slot for the drill to run into and clamping onto a chunk of wood in the middle, so the flange wouldn't be damaged.






That worked like a dream why didn't I do that to begin with :wall:

OK have a go with the 3/4" supper heater holes now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :wall: so similar set up, but this time I sat the plate on some parallels flat side on, as the 3/4" was to wide to fit between a slot,:-a 3/8" pilot drill then straight in with the 3/4" now I know that "drilling soft copper can me tricky", :wall: that one wandered off centre as well I should have used another pilot drill.

OK second 3/4" hole this time 3/8" followed by 1/2" followed by 3/4" perfect 

This is the scrap plate, the 3/4" hole on the left is the one that run out. you can work out for your selves which 3/8" hole went wrong.







Guess what I'll be buying at the Harrogate show, still I've got the formers know.

Stew 

Who knows that "drilling soft copper can be tricky" :wall:


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## GWRdriver (Apr 27, 2010)

Stew,
Eliminate the heartbreak and frustration of drilling copper with . . . the UNIBIT!! It did for me. I will now never drill larger holes, say 1/4" or larger, in copper with anything else. They work well in all common sheet metals.

PS - I use them at a rather low RPM (slowest drill press speed) with a drip of tapping fluid otherwise they can sqeal a bit in making the larger holes. ALSO (FYGI) . . . I like to put a slight chamfer on my holes in boiler copper for relief, to give the solder a place to run/puddle, such as in flue holes. When a step drill transitions toward its next larger step, before beginning to cut that next larger size, it will cut a very small chamfer, which I usually let it do and leave in place. Convenient how that works out.


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## SBWHART (Apr 28, 2010)

Hi Harry

Thanks for the tip with the step drill I do have one but its metric  I'll pic an imperial one up ay Harrogate.

Thanks

Stew


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## Ora Banda (Apr 28, 2010)

Stew... 

I agree entirely with Harry's approach to using a step-drill for making large(ish) holes in copper boiler plates... works a treat, well worth the investment. I use to cut the holes for bushes in the boiler barrel also. 

Very much liking the build... good stuff !


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## mklotz (Apr 28, 2010)

I should point out that Harbor Freight also sells stepless versions...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66463

of these extremely useful tools. These, of course, eliminate the need to be tied to specific Imperial hole diameters.


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## SBWHART (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks for the input Chaps we'll get this job cracked between us.

Picked up a nice bit of 2.5mm thick copper the drawing spec is for 13g 2.33mm so its on the safe side, while I was their they cut me a 2" lump of 15/8 phos bronze for the steam dome bush, and I also picked up a length of 1/8 phos bronze to make some closing screws, and a rod of Easy Flo No1 silver solder this has a slightly higher melting point than Easy Flo No2 that I'm going to use on the bulk of the boiler, but there are a couple of places that I want to use this higher melting point solder, as the joint will be subjected to high temperatures when I'm soldering additional joints close by.

Work on the new fire box tube plate first job mark out a circle 3 7/8 dia (3 3/8 + 2 * 1/4) the 1/4 is so that the flange can be formed.







Then mark a 3 3/8 dia circle so the former can be centred, then anneal the plate, clamp the disc in the vice with the former and start to fold the flanges over with hammer blows, the copper starts to work harden quite quickly you can feel the material stiffen under the hammer don't try and force it or the copper will split, anneal the plate again.

This is it after the second anneal.






In total I annealed it 7 times before the flange had formed over onto the former.

This is it complete after an hour in the pickle bath.






Well that me back where I started before I try drilling the plate again I'm going to have a bit of an experiment and make some kit that should make the job easyer.

This is going to be a bit of topic:- I want to grind a drill up specifically for sheet metal whilst searching my drill stash for a spare 3/8 and 3/4 drills I came across this sorry site:-






I must have picked it up out of the scrap where I use to work.

So I decided to give it some TLC, my Dad taught me how to grind drills up by hand when I was an apprentice many years ago, and like riding a bike its just something I can do, if you asked me to explain it I couldn't, I could show you but explain it no.

Any way this is the result.











And the proof of the pudding.






Still got the touch 

Stew


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## GWRdriver (Apr 29, 2010)

Excellent flanging work, . . . and a better drill point than I could make.


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## SBWHART (May 1, 2010)

Thanks Harry

Quick up date.

John has kindly given me a loan of some imperial step drills:- Thanks John

But I found a problem in using them three of the holes are right up against the flange and the drill will catch it.






So I ground a 3/8 drill up as suggested by Rob but it cut too 0.020" over size but I found a 23/64 drill among my stash, most of these drill I inherited from my Dad and its a weard and wonderful collection, but don't knock it you can't beat weard . So I ground that up and it gave a hole that cleaned up nicely with a 3/8 hand reamer.






Had a practice with the scrap tube plate, I used a drop of milk as a cutting fluid as suggested by John:- Semi skimmed worked ok

And this is the result.






The bit of sheet is 0.5 mm thick

Top Job

I then drilled 3mm pilot holes in the former using the mill DRO this is the set up.






And made a stubby centre pop out of a bit of 3mm silver steel (drill rod)

And marked the position of the holes in the new boiler tube.











I decided not to drill the tubes just yet as I wont to ask the boiler inspector a couple of questions, I'm a bit concerned with the closeness of some of the tubes to the flange, the drill will just kiss the flange, and I was wondering if a should slightly reposition these holes.

So I'll get on with something else.

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 1, 2010)

don't forget to file your nicely drilled holes with a course rat tail file and to file a chamfer on each side . reason to give the SS room to flow though the joint ( you can only work from one side in some places ) the chamfer give a small filet space.

while I am on. when you do the stays on the outside counter sink the stay holes with a very blunt drill or use the drill in reverse . reason this will raise a small dam round the counter sink and retain the SS. try it on your test piece of copper first though

note you need about 5 thou clearance on all joint faces for the SS to wick in


BTW i you can get hold of the book by Alex Farmer it is a good read 


Stuart


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## kcmillin (May 1, 2010)

Very Nice project Stew. I will be watching with intrigue.

Is there a reason no one has mentioned using an end mill to finish the holes to size? I do this quite often on thin materials like 1/32" brass sheet, and get very good results. I have also made holes in thin walled cylinders of brass and steel using end mills. 

Kel


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## GWRdriver (May 1, 2010)

Kel,
I can't speak for anyone else but for me it's expedience. To mill the holes the heads will have to be securely set up and aligned, just as if you were milling, which one would be. Also, unless you were using a center-cutting mill, pilot holes would need to be drilled. Nothing difficult about this but this does take additional time and I've found I get no better holes and job than if I use a step drill. With the step drill I just mark out the head, deeply center-pop, plop it on the drill press, and have at it.


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## Deanofid (May 2, 2010)

Hi Stew;
Been watching this on both places, so, some questions here, some there.
When you banged up that last round plate, how do you keep it centered on the former as you turn it in the vise? Just eyeball it?

Thanks!

Dean


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## SBWHART (May 2, 2010)

Dean

When I started with the square plate I lightly put a centre pop where the centre of the disc would be, I then marked out a circle 3 7/8 dia and cut this out by saw and filed to the line, I then lightly marked another circle the same diameter as the former in the middle of the disc, I then lined the former up on this and gripped the two in the vice, hammered over a good 1/3 of the plate, then by hand held the two together and undid the vice with the other hand and repositioned them, hammered over another 1/3:- repeat. Once I'd got this first bend complete the former self aligned for follow on hammering over operations after annealing.

Hope this helps

Stew


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## doubletop (May 2, 2010)

The first plates I made I fiddled about getting the copper cut nicely round and then centered on the former. I then realized this was all unnecessary. I now rough cut the copper sheet to near round, in a series of straight cuts _(and have since found I can do this very quickly on my mechanical hacksaw)_. I then roughly center on the former and shape the annealed plates. When finished and still hard from the final beating I stick the plate in the 3 jaw chuck and skim off the excess. Its quicker in the long run. Of course this only works for round plates and if they are of a size you can get in your chuck, however even my little Lorch can do 3"plates.






BTW - If the step drill can't be used from the flanged side can't a pilot hole be drilled and the plate just be turned over and drilled from the other side?

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 2, 2010)

Thats a couple of good tips their Pete

Thanks

Stew


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## doubletop (May 2, 2010)

Stew

No problem. I'm looking forward to this build as well as everybody else. I know you said it was a kit boiler. Can you let us know which one just in case we have the drawings to allow us to follow.

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 2, 2010)

Hi Pete

The boiler is for a 3 1/2" gauge Mabel to the design LBSC reading through the Model Engineer article Currly says that he used the same formers as for the boiler of "Jeanie Deans". The serial for the Loco build In Model Engineer ran from April 1966 to May 1968, it was the last Loco LBSC designed he passed away before the serial was was finished and Martin Evens went onto complete it.

Cheers

Stew


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## doubletop (May 4, 2010)

Thanks Stew

I've got LSBC's "Shop Shed and Road" and Martin Evans "Model Locomotive Boilers" and I'll take a look to see if there any reference to it. However, from what I've read most of their boilers tend follow a pretty common approach. 

For example; I had been wondering why my safety valve didn't work so looked at all the information I had in various books, drawings, information from this site, examples of commercial valves etc and concluded that all those that worked semed to go back to the design Curly provided in "Shop Shed and Road" in 1929. _(Off topic but one observation I did make in that assessment was that for all the valves that "worked" the ratio of the area of boiler side bore and the cross sectional area of the ball was 64%-69% which may or may not be relevant.) _

Pete


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## lordedmond (May 6, 2010)

try and find Gordon Smith

He is the definitive source of working safety valves 


http://www.meridienneexhibitions.co.uk/uploads/doc4a9f834a18f5b.pdf


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## SBWHART (May 6, 2010)

Thanks for the good information Guys its information like this that can pull a job out of the mire. I've got an old copy of shop shed and road it's the must have book for loco building.

At the club night on Tuesday I took my scrap tube plate along more to get the Chaps talking and it really paid off, some of the old guys are have lots of experience building boilers, along with offers of help if I got stuck I got lots of advice and tips to get the job going.

Any way on with the tube plates:-

I clamped a chunk of wood to the mill table and drilled a hole though it to clear the drill and another for a clamp on the job.

This is the set up.






To drill the holes I started them with a centre drill then for the 3/8 a 8mm cone drill and then a letter U drill the guys at the club recommend not reaming to size but to leave it slightly under size and turn a small step on the boiler tube, this way it will have something to sit against and not fall through when you start to solder.

I used the cone drill for the 3/4 as this was giving a hole that was under size on the tube again I'll take a fine skim off the tube.

Here they are finished.






Next job skim the boiler tube square and too length.

So that the chuck won't damage the tube I turned up a wood plug a nice tight fit in the tube.











With one plug in the chuck end I couldn't get the tube running true at the steady end as the tube was oval so I turned a second plug up for that end as well, this pulled the ovality out of the tube.

This is the set up











I just could,t have done this with the 3 point steady as it was.

Cheers

Stew


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## doubletop (May 7, 2010)

Stew

It's looking good mate. You realise you are centre stage now so you have to keep going 'till it's done. Amongst the others I'm keen to see how you go as I'd like to do one of these one day. 

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 12, 2010)

Thanks Pete

Things have slowed down a bit on the boiler build I've got a paying job that will take up some of my time for the next couple of week.

Got a bit done drilled the holes in the Backhead sorry no pics and made a start on the boiler tube.

Marking it out used the mill table as a flat face.






In order to hold the tube steady for cutting I used this clamp I made it a few years back for another job:- can't remember what :scratch:
Just two pieces of wood with a coach bolt.






This is it in use






I used a junior hacksaw to do the business, this one has a sentimental attachment for me my father made it many years ago, I didn't want to use a 12" saw as the tooth space would be too wide for the tube and tend to rip also I wanted to take it steady so I got a nice clean straight cut. As the saw was cutting at an angle I didn't take it past the line I left a bit of metal holding the tube together whilst I did the next cut.

This is the next cut, the tool makers clamp is to to stop the cut ends from vibrating and making a farting noise.






The with a junior blade held in a bit of brass chim complete the cuts square.






This is the cut tube.






The cut will be bent out to form the wings of the firebox, I tried to bend them out as cut but the copper is quite hard so I'll anneal it as I didn't want to force it. As the annealed tube will need pickling I,m at a bit of a stop until I get my pickle bathe made.

I've collected one a two things together for the boiler build.






The black box is a case from an industrial battery fork lift truck or something like that, and will be part of the pickle bath, the bits of ally behind it will form part of my brazing hearth. At the Harrogate show I picked up some of these blankets, for the hearth.






I also have a collection of fire bricks.






Getting there slowly

Stew


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## doubletop (May 12, 2010)

Stew

Its looking good; and I know what you mean about paying jobs I'm between numbers myself at the mo' so have a bit of time on my hands.

With that battery box what do you plan to use for the pickle? Citric acid from the baking shelf at the supermarket works fine and is safe. Three $2 pots in a plastic storage bin half full of water worked fine for me. I dunked my bare hands in it to fish stuff out. It did sting a bit if I had cuts in my hands but under the tap and problem solved.

And for the hearth just get some Thermalite/Celcon blocks from B&Q and cut them up with an old rip saw. Those firebricks absorb too much heat. I had soldering issues but once I went to Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC) block my problems went away as the heat was then going where I wanted it.

Good luck

Pete


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## lordedmond (May 12, 2010)

I will second the thermalite bricks boy do they reflect the heat just keep them dry 

as I have posted on your other thread do not make the holes to good a rub with a rats tail file and a chamfer on both sides will allow the SS to flow into the joint


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## GWRdriver (May 12, 2010)

Agreed. I make a few (2 or 3) "nicks" in each hole also, sometimes with a rat-tail, sometimes with a triangular, depends on what I have in my hand at the time. Helps the solder get to where it needs to go. I use the same chamfering and nicking in a number of places, heads, mudring, firehole ring, anywhere I must be sure of good solder penetration.


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## SBWHART (May 12, 2010)

Wow guys some great information their.

I'm going to use dry acid salts from Chronos http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-local...=Dry_Acid_Pickling_Salts.html#aACD100#aACD100

I was wondering about getting some thermal blocks but didn't know where to get them from never thought of B&Q

I have chamfered the holes but I didn't know about nicking the edge this makes sense.

Thanks for pointing me in the correct direction.

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 12, 2010)

that stuff from chronos is nasty stuff

just get some citric acid powder from you local home brew place bigger jugs sell it for 3 quid for 500 gram http://www.biggerjugs.co.uk/


had some of that chronos stuff in a open container sent all the steel rusty not so with citric acid

here are some pics of my class 4 tank 5 inch gauge boiler















found out how to post a pic ;D


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## Bill Taylor (May 12, 2010)

Hi Stew,
Yes, boilers are very tricky things and have to conform to the local pressure vessel codes. I have built simple boilers back in my distant youth but as the boiler is really the heart of any engine (not just the bits that go round!) my preference is to have someone build it for you and get them to give you all the paperwork that goes with it! I have had a copper boiler built in the UK, could not find anyone with the skills required in Canada to build one!. The usual way over here is to weld up a steel boiler. Corrosion is then a major problem Glad to see you bought the kit from Reeves. At least you wont have to flange the plates. Your success will depend a lot on your skill with brazing and silver soldering, and that goes back to your skill with the torch. What are you going to use for gases. Oxyacetylene is perhaps the best but storing the gases becomes a problem (unless you have a nice outside workshop) The biggest factors I have found is to make sure the parts are clean and free from grease and oxides BEFORE you coat with flux;' and make sure you get a good fit, the brazing operation will be mush easier if you don't have to fill up holes! Then make sure you can get enough heat into the parts you are brazing. This means that the torch is big enough and that you have placed sufficient insulation (fire bricks) around the part. 
Good luck with your boiler - what locomotive are you building?
Regards,

Bill (Ontario)


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## SBWHART (May 12, 2010)

Ho I wish I new about the citric acid 12 months ago thats when I bought the acid crystals, as I've got them I'll use them, but for any future builds I'll go the citric acid way it makes a lot of sense a lot safer and environmentally friendly.

Great looking boiler Lordedmond if only my boiler will look half as good.

Bill thanks for your good wishes:- I'll be using silver solder and propane gas, guys at the club have built boilers of similar size using propane. It will be for a 3 1/2" 2-4-0 locomotive to the Mabel design by LBSC.

Went on the hunt to B&Q (great big hardware store) for some Thermalite blocks and picked up four half price 50p each as they were damaged, but for my use as a hearth that won't matter. 






This afternoon I've made a lid for the tank






Still got to put a lock on it just to keep the contents safe away from animals and children 

I spotted an oblong bucket at B&Q for keeping paint in for roller application looked just the right size to fit in the tank and take the boiler.






The acid will be in the bucket and the tank will act as a second skin containing accidental leaks and splashes.

Thanks to you all again for your support and interest

Stew


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## doubletop (May 12, 2010)

Stew

And there's no need to send off for citric acid. Just go to Tesco/Asda/Sainsburys, or what ever, and get it from the baking section.

Following the lead from somebody on the forum, its so innocuous you can store all your parts in the pickle ready for use. Fish them out rinse off under the tap, do the next job an throw them back in again.

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 13, 2010)

I'm having seconds thoughts about the acid salts I think I'll go the citric acid route.

Lordemond:- Is that a second boiler I can see in the background of your boiler test pic it looks the same type is it ?. Also noticed the pressure at 200 psi, was this an official boiler test as the gauge looks to have a calibration label on it, in the UK the test is twice working pressure usually 160 psi:- just an interested observation.

Thanks for your interest and advice chaps

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 13, 2010)

yes there is a second boiler in the pic I do not know what it is for but it much smaller . to give you an idea of the size of the thing its front tube plate is 5 inches dia and the boiler is 22 inches long and very heavy


as to the test pressure initial test for a new boiler is twice the working pressure, as the boiler is for 100 psi the test is 200psi  subsequent test are at 1 1/2 time WP 

Yes it is a certificated test by the manufacture of the boiler and he has issued a test certificate of that test ,which has you know our boiler inspectors in the UK accept as the primary test


As I told you in PM I do not make my boilers any more, I have done so in the past , but I cannot lug the big ones around due to my bad hips and ankle ( I now need wheels myself )

The boiler was made for me by Paul at http://www.ptmachining.co.uk/  only a customer no other involvement with the firm

BTW that £ 2.3 K of work you see before you


If these pics are considered a hijack of you thread I will remove them 


Stuart


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## SBWHART (May 13, 2010)

Stuart

Thanks for the information, no problem with the pics at all, they add to the general discussion and information thanks for posting them.

Just one more ? the lugs sticking out of the side of the boiler I guess are for fixing the boiler to the frame, on the drawing for my boiler I can't see any provision for fixing it to the frame ???, I'll have to read the words and music through again to see if I can get a clue.


Thanks again

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 13, 2010)

The lugs are not to fasten the boiler to the frame but are to fasten the side tanks to the boiler

see pic from mag 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The boiler will stand on two feet at the rear to give the required expansion but fixed at the smoke box end

Now you have mentioned it LBSC was a bit caviler with his fixings ;D

look at your drawings I will bet they show two angle brackets screwed to the outer wrapper one the straight sides , not a good idea . Instead before you stick it together try and work out were the boiler supports need to be at the rear and fix some pieces of 3/16 square copper with SS were the boiler will rest between the frames instead of screwing on some angle ,screws into the water space not a good idea

Here is a sketch


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## SBWHART (May 13, 2010)

Stuart

Thank you very much for that boiler fixing info, it looks a very neat method, I'm a lot clearer now.

Old Curly was undoubtedly a very cleaver guy when it came to model locos, I suppose his plans and instruction are a reflection of the time, I've come across one or two thing that to me are ambiguous and not clear at all, but I suppose I can't complain too much he was well in his eighties when he drew the plans up and wrote the build article in ME, which is not bad going.

Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 13, 2010)

Have you read the book about his life, his USA driving has Curly down as female 

a bit more info regarding LBSC designs , note I have built "doris" and a good performer it is we have pulled a combined load of 40 stone ,but a push off was required but thereafter we ran round the track no problem but I was full on with the regulator. Back on the info LBSC did not fit cleading or crinolines to his loco's so the space for lagging and cleading is at a premium at the front end 


Hope you have a leak free build , a quick water test can be done by using the mains water pressure normally 80psi so no pumps required


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## SBWHART (May 13, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> Have you read the book about his life, his USA driving has Curly down as female
> 
> Back on the info LBSC did not fit cleading or crinolines to his loco's so the space for lagging and cleading is at a premium at the front end
> 
> Mains water pressure normally 80psi so no pumps required



Stuart

Yes I've read his book, he certainly was a strange Guy.

I'm glad you mentioned the cladding as that is another thing I can't for the life of me work out how to do it.

Mains water thats an interesting tip.

Thanks

Stew


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## Kermit (May 13, 2010)

Mains water pressure can vary widely.

where I live 30-35 psi is the max found.


Kermit


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## lordedmond (May 13, 2010)

Kermit

yes I am aware that water pressure may vary but it is still useful for a quick test of a new boiler , it beats mucking about with pumps ,


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## Kermit (May 13, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> ... it beats mucking about with pumps ,




agreed. I offered the distinction in the interest of safety. Not wishing anyone to assume their boiler was 'tested' to a pressure of 90 psi by the water mains method.

I routinely hydrostatically test welded pipe as well as rubber hose for hydraulic uses. A common test pressure being 1500 psi.  Pump pump pump, pump pump pump.


Wears me out just thinking about it,  ;D
Kermit


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## SBWHART (May 15, 2010)

Thanks for your input and insight Chaps

Well yesterday was a case of best laid skeams and all that. I'd more or less got the afternoon free to get on with the boiler, but my daughter turned up with 2 month old grandson, now if theirs anything better than a grandson for keeping a grandad out of his shop please tell me :big: ;D:- so only manages to get a little done.

Cutting out the rad on the throat tube plate using jewelers saw and home made sawing table.






Throat plate having first fitting to boiler tube.






I annealed the boiler tube using a rough hearth pieced together with the thermalite blocks and the biggest burner I've got for my torch just to try it out, the blocks worked well but the burner scared the crap out of me talk about a roaring flame, not too easy to control, I've got two torches so using the next size burner down with both torches will give me more control when it comes to soldering.

As you can see from the pic the acid bath worked will, I ended up using the acid salts only needed to make up 3 liters to cover boiler and adding about two tablespoons of salts gave me a Ph between 2 and 3 (if I'm reading the indicator paper correct) 

Cheers

Stew


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## Blogwitch (May 15, 2010)

As I told you Stew, if you need another pair of hands and a burner, I'm only a phone call away.

Looking very good indeed.

John


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## SBWHART (May 15, 2010)

Thanks John

It look like I'll be doing the first soldering some time next week, need to make a joggling tool first and cobble together a hearth.

Stew


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## arnoldb (May 15, 2010)

Stew, that's coming along nicely!

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (May 16, 2010)

Thanks Arnold

Well yesterday was yet another case of "best laid skeams of mice and men all gang away". I could see the whole day in front of me in the shop, but I'd forgotten about the Boss, we'd booked seats for a Don McClane (of American Pie Fame) In Liverpool for the evening, but the Boss thought it would be a good idea to go early and have a wander around the shops visit the Tate modern art Gallery at the Albert Docks etc etc so strike one afternoon in the shop. Enjoyed the visit and concert though, and came across one interesting fact you guys across the pond will be interested in, theirs a very nice bronze statue at Albert Dock commemorating emigration donated to the city by the Mormon Church, it's plaque states that over 9 Million people emigrated from Europe to North America through the port of Liverpool:- just what % of the population are decended from those emigrants now :scratch: the mind boggles.

Back on topic:-

The wings of the fire box rapper need to be extended to do this I will have to make a joint, this can be a simple lap joint but this will take up some water space or a joggled joint, I'm going to use a joggle joint. First thing make a joggling tool, now this isn't going to be a fancy tool just dog rough and functional.

Mill a bit of flat steel (garage door thanks Ralph) flat and put a groove up it 1/4" + plate thickness + a bit for luck.







Then with the plate well annealed and a 1/4" square bar squeeze the plate into the grooves.






This will bend it out a bit wack it back square with a bit of ally bar and a hammer.






And thats the joggled joint formed.






Cheers

Stew


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## tel (May 16, 2010)

Coming along well Stew.

What did you think of Don McLean? I saw him live years ago and was rather disappointed. However, the venue might have had a lot to do with the quality of the performance.


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## SBWHART (May 16, 2010)

Thanks Tel

This was the second time we've seen him, the first time it was very good, this time not so good, some how this performance wasn't as polished, both times were at the same venue Liverpool Phili Hall, so guess it was just an off day.

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 16, 2010)

will it still fit between the frames with that joint ?

have you done the required calcs for the design alteration for that type of joint , better run it past the inspectors just in case 

Thats why they fit a internal butt strap

its bad enough to get the stays down to fit 

although yours looks OK but for others looking in not all copper pipe supplied is of a uniform wall thickness and can in some cases fall below the min section required for the SWP of the boiler , its worth checking


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## SBWHART (May 16, 2010)

Hi Lordemund

Thanks for the input

The joint actually fits above the frame, I've tried it in the frame and its ok in fact it would fit between the frame.

In the instruction Curly gives both options of joint for the boiler, the boiler inspector said he preferred joggled joints, but I need to ask him about stay position.


Tube thickness is certainly worth checking I'll do that tomorrow, I've had that sort of problem with tube when I was working in industry.

Now if you've got a nervous disposition look away now:- this is going to be cheap, nasty, and as rough as the proverbial Bears back side.

(If any of you guys have felt a Bears back side and lived to tell the tail I would love to know just how rough it is)  ;D

But It'll do the job 

Making the brazing Hearth.

Fist off cut a boiler size hole in the base of a large ally oven tray:- the reason for the hole will become apparent next weekish.






Then four bolts in each corner fastens it to the top of a work mate, and a bit of scrap ally sheet pop riveted to two sides makes the wind shield.







Now it was a great bit of advice that I got to use Thermalite block cut in half with an old saw for insulation. (You must keep them dry)
They cut like butter. 






And her we have it's all ready for the first soldering job and all for less than a ten squid, and build in an afternoon.






Stew


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## lordedmond (May 16, 2010)

If the boiler inspector is Ok then it will be fine

I am not trying to be a doom merchant but you cannot be to careful with pressure vessels just think where it will be placed when you drive the loco 


but I am trying to stop you making a very expensive mistake you need to be about twenty steps ahead its all to easy with boilers to forge ahead and cause you problems in the future


I cannot remember if LBSC included blow down valves , but do a quick count up of the number of bushes required for clacks, water gauges and manifolds

as a after thought think how you will fit the fire door and catch and provide a small tapped blind bush in the required positions 



Stuart


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## SBWHART (May 16, 2010)

Hi Stuart

I really appreciate your input I'm very much outside my comfort zone with the boiler build, most of my training was in machine shops, so once I step outside that I start to struggle. I can understand what you mean about forging ahead and causing an expensive mistake. I'm a little uncomfortable with how the throat plate fits to the boiler tube old Curly just says cut the tube half way across, once I done it and tried the throat plate I would have bean happier to have only cut 1/3 of the way, still I've done it know. One of the first things to solder will be the throat plate I just hope the inspector approves it.

The drawing does call for a blow down valve at the front left of the fire box, I was planning on soldering it in place at the same time as I do the foundation ring.

There are two different drawings for the Back head, that show different bushing arrangements Curley's drawing and one in Matin Evan's article on finishing the loco off, after he took over when Curley passed away. I've gone with Martin Evan's drawing as it meets the boiler fittings requirements logically. Two clacks, two water gauge, one regulator, one blow down valve, two stays, as well as bushing in the tube for a manifold.

With the fire hole door I'm still confused, Curley shows the backhead plate drilled and tapped for the door, but above the fire hole, I can't see how the door fixes ?, Martin Evans doesn't show any thing, I was going to have a read in shop and shed and have a word with the guys at the club how to do it.

Thanks again

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 17, 2010)

where he shows the backplate drilled for the door and catch, just drill the holes now and SS in small blind bushes tapped for the screws to hold on the hinge and catch

The best way is to side hang the door that way it will stay open when firing on the move


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## doubletop (May 17, 2010)

Stew

On this joggled joint; it occurred to me why not rivet the joint as well as SS it? The rivets will make it stronger and serve keep it all in place during soldering process. I would assume there's a whole lot of stay ends in this area as well so the rivets wouldn't be that out of place.

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 18, 2010)

Pete

I'm going to use rivets as you suggested, my plan was to start soldering yesterday the first job was to be the fire box extensions, I thought I had some 1/16 copper rivets but discovered they were steel  , so I'm waiting for the copper ones to be delivered, in the mean time I've started machining up the bushes for the boiler.

Cheers

Stew


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## doubletop (May 18, 2010)

Stew

On the bushes do make the mistake I did and do them in brass and then have to do them again. I only discovered my mistake when one melted due to the over exuberant application of heat.

No doubt to somebody with your skills you'll have them all knocked out before morning tea break.

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 18, 2010)

Thanks for the warning Pete

I,m making the bushes from Phos Bronze, I don't know about getting them done before tea, started on the bush for the steam dome, its got 12 holes on a pitch circle dia first attempt I got the PCD wrong I had to remake, so all I got to show for yesterday was that one, and a start on the stay bushes.

Stew


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## SBWHART (May 18, 2010)

Got some of the boiler bushes made whilst waiting for the rivets to arrive.






The bush on the left is for the safety valve, the drawing states 3/8"*26 thread, checked with Reeves what thread they sold their safety valves with 3/8*32 so thats what I made it, the middle two are for the regulator they screw into the end plates, the one with all the holes is soldered into the boiler barrel and the steam dome fastens onto it.

Stew


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## arnoldb (May 18, 2010)

Good going Stew Thm: - very nice parts!

Do you have taps and dies for all those unique (to me anyway) threads or do you single-point them?

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (May 18, 2010)

Thanks Arnold

My lathe is very unfriendly when it comes to screw cutting so I use tap and dies where I can, I've slowly put together quite a comprehensive set of ME taps and dies over the years, buying them when needed, bought 3/8 * 32, 3/8 * 40, 7/16 * 32 and 7/16 * 40 at the Harrogate show the other week. Some tome ago I bought some real cheap carbon steel tap and dies made in India they were real poor quality:- the taps chipped and the dies didn't cut a clean thread, since then I've only bought HSS or Carbon steel stuff made in the UK. ME thread sizes tend to be used mainly on brass parts so good quality carbon works just fine.

Cheers

Stew


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## Blogwitch (May 18, 2010)

Arnold,

I didn't want to take the wind out of Stews sails, but in the UK we have some standards that are normally used, and they are ME threads. That stands for Model Engineering, and when you order commercial fittings, they are usually cut with one of those, unlike on the continent, which usually uses metric.

These are standard ME threads, 40 & 32 TPI, but some coarse ones also come as 26 TPI. Have a look at taps/dies in wooden boxes.

http://www.tap-die.com/index1.html

I am just saving up to buy myself a full new set of taps and dies of most British normal threads. I have BSF & BSW arriving tomorrow, and worth every penny I paid for them.

Tap & die have special offers on at the moment, so I am going to take advantage of it, as I have found their taps and dies are second to none, especially on stainless.


Bogs


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## arnoldb (May 18, 2010)

Stew, Bogs - thank you both.

I was wondering, as for steam the finer threads seems to be a better solution than the normal metric I've used so far... My bad as well; I didn't check the ME size charts :-[ - I always forget that one as I've never worked with it.

Stew - nothing wrong with using taps & dies for making threads - even if your lathe is up to it ;D - much easier if you don't need single point accuracy!

Bogs thanks; that link has me both envious and approaching cardiac arrest; The prices do look very good indeed - just a bit above my budget ; though I'll admit the basic collection of metric taps & dies I have (good quality though) actually cost just as much to put together.

Kind regards, Arnold


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## Blogwitch (May 18, 2010)

Arnold,

Not so much in your metric empire, but one other advantage of the 40 tpi, that is what is used in an imperial micrometer, so you can easily make fine tune items with a thumbwheel graduated in thous, 0.025" per revolution.

Like Stew, I have used the cheaper carbon sets, because that is all I could afford at the time, but even though they cut well enough on non ferrous, not so with harder materials. 
They are not used everyday like metric or BA (which I already have in HSS), so I have come to a time in my life where good quality sets should last me the rest of my natural. Anything to make life a little easier.

John


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## SBWHART (May 19, 2010)

Thanks for the info John those tap-die prices look very good for the box sets top quality too.

This is where I get my Carbon stuff from http://www.tracytools.com/ the prices are for carbon but they do stock HSS they usually double the price up for the HSS stuff.

Avoid the unboxed sets they sometimes sell, these were the cheap Indian manufacture that were poor quality, rest of the stuff is OK though.

Stew


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## SBWHART (May 22, 2010)

Well this has been a very frustrating week, I ordered the 1/16 copper rivets on Monday on Friday I got a call from the supplier to say they were out of stock :-\ , so I've reordered from another supplier, in the mean time I've got on with some house jobs and earned a few brownie points, and made some more bushes, and bronze screws to hold the boiler together whilst its soldered.






I found that the boiler flue tubes varied in length by 1/8 they need to be all the same length or the sort ones will be at risk of coming adrift during soldering.






Skimmed one end square de-burred the bore and skimmed the Dia for 3mm for a lose fit in the tube plate.






Then found the shortest tube and set the hight gauge to that and marked all the other tubes off to that length.






Skimmed the length to the mark and turned OD same as the other end.

With all the tubes trimmed to length and a small step turned time to have a trial assembly to the tube plates.











The smokebox tube plate is the wrong way round, this is because I want the end of tubes to sit flat on a plate whilst I solder the tubes to the firebox, the smokebox tube plate will be one of the last things to be soldered so I must remember to turn it round.

My plan is to solder the wrapper extensions first then the throat plate and wrapper, but I need those darn rivets if I don't get them soon it will be plan B turn some 1/8 rivets down.

Stew


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## SBWHART (May 22, 2010)

Went to the club track to see if I could touch base with the boiler inspector, and find out if he will be around next week, he wasn't there but I was telling one of the members about the my lack of rivets, he said I've got some you can have just follow me home, People can be real nice:-
So looks like I'll be soldering next week.

Stew


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## arnoldb (May 22, 2010)

Good going Stew Thm: - it's really nice when one meets someone who is willing to help out, like with the rivets  Keep going - you have some very nice tips in your build Thm:

Bogs, thanks; my "personal little empire" depends on what I can get or make, so I don't care about the "metric" issue that much any more - in the finer threads I can't get that either. If I can't buy something locally or get it economically from overseas, I'll make it, and 40 tpi is just dandy, as I can easily turn it - easier than metric for me ;D Stew, my apologies for hijacking your thread; back to you now!

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (May 23, 2010)

Thanks Arnold

Well got the first joint soldered the fire box outer rapper extension:- the part to be joined were given a soak in the pickle for 1/2 hr then throughly cleaned with some wire wool, flux applied and the extensions were loosely riveted in place.







Then onto the hearth a piece of solder was cut the length of the joint and placed on the joint I did an outside and an inside joint at the same heating, and I bunged the thermal blanket up the tube to keep the heat where I wanted it. fed a little solder into the joint and onto the head of the rivets






I let it cool for five minutes then quenched it in water then into the pickle for half an hour, the pickle was then washed off in water, and the joint inspected, apply another dollop of solder to the joint, then with the boiler flipped over the other way and with less solder this time and the whole lot heated up again and a little more solder fed into the joint and on the other side of the rivets.

Back in to the pickle as before another clean and inspection not to happy with a couple of areas so again as before more flux and a bit more solder in the areas on concern.

Here we go outside.






And inside






Well thats me done for the day the rest of the day will be taken up with that great British institution:- the family barbeque, that is traditionally held on the first and often only dry sunny day of the year. The pleasant sound of birds song and smell of flowers will be replaced by the sound of male of the household cussing as he struggles to get the barbeque lit and the stench of charcoal, lighter fuel, and cremated sausages.

Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 23, 2010)

looking good ,glad you are in close contact with the inspector

you maybe did not get it hot enough the ss should have flowed though the joint , note it will tend to flow to the hottest part of the joint



BTW the burner you used for the boiler work will light the charcoal PDQ :

had to abandon the WS today to hot temp gauge said 30deg c


Stuart


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## SBWHART (May 23, 2010)

Thanks Stuart

I checked that the solder had flown through, it had, but thought a little bit more wouldn't do any harm.

Nipped round to the club track this afternoon to see if I could catch the inspector, he was their just about to steam up his own loco. Asked if he wouldn't mind looking at my first joint, gave me the thumbs up, lots of blokes were their I think the sunny weather had brought them out, just the site of my efforts got them talking:- more advice about boiler making came my way than I could take in at one time. Gave me confidence to keep going.

Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 23, 2010)

just think each stage out in you mind before you proceed do not rush into things ,as I have said before boilers can and go wrong very quick

with the tubes with such a small boiler you could assemble the fire box wrapper to the fire box tube plate and insert the tubes with a ring of SS around each one and do the lot with one heat from the water side

Stuart


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## SBWHART (May 24, 2010)

Thanks for the good advice Stuart thats worth remembering. I'm planning on doing the tubes and wrapper in one go but from the other side.


Well had a master class from John this afternoon on silver soldering, we soldered the throat plate up, and I learnt a lot in the process, it really is a two man job using propane on a lump of copper like this boiler.

First of all I gave the parts a good clean first in the pickle then with a wire brush, I loosely riveted the throat plate in place with four rivets one mid way on each side of the fire box and one each side of the boiler tube where the saw cut ended, closed any big gaps by tapping and pinching with pliers, and applied flux. One thing I learnt from Johns was you don't need a lot of flux I was lathering it on.

This was the first set up. Sorry didn't take a lot of pics it a process where once you start you can't keep breaking off to take a pic, so you'll have to put up with my description.

We placed a length of 3 mm silver solder down each side of the plate an along the back, then with me operating one torch for back ground heating and John adding the filler rod and controlling the heat with a smaller torch and instructing me where to direct the background heat and when to take it off, with the top once done we flipped the boiler on its side and soldered up around the boiler tube, flipped it on the other side and ditto , allowed it to cool and have 1/2hr in the pickle a carefull inspection showed a couple of areas that needed a bit more work, so same procedure but concentrating on areas as required.

This is what the job looks like.

Top






Inside






The fillet around the curve is on the other side and as its down the bottom of the tube it doesn't take a good pic, so you'll have to believe me:- its real nice.

I'll run this past the inspector.

Stew


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## SBWHART (May 25, 2010)

Didn't get anything done today except to try the boiler the boiler in the frame of the loco.






The frames somewhat stripped down, I've removed the front wheel and the connecting rod so that I could trial fit the water and oil pumps.

You can read the build log her http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=547.0

Thanks

Stew


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## kcmillin (May 25, 2010)

That looks amazing. Fits so well. 

Well Done! Thm:

Kel


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## doubletop (May 26, 2010)

Stu

Its going to be a stunner. 

And a nice rig for working on the engine. I assume it can be rotated in two axis to provide access with any damage occurring?

Pete


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## SBWHART (May 26, 2010)

Thanks Kel

Pete:- Yes it can be raised and lowered and the engine rotated, its based on others I've seen at shows, mine is over engineered as the stretcher along the bottom is not need, the frame has enough strength to support itself, once made it can be used for any loco assembly. I wasn't too fussy when I built mine just used stuff that I'd got:- ally angle, box section, screwed studding, 1" square mild steel, wood plank:- just as long as it does the job.

Her's a few more pics so you get the idea.











Cheers

Stew


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## doubletop (May 26, 2010)

Stew

That's great, I need one of those. The real reason I'm on this forum is so I can get my skills to a level that I am confident to finish this off, without stuffing it up. http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9516.0

As you can see why I am extremely interested in your thread.

Pete


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## lordedmond (May 26, 2010)

By gum Stew there is plenty of space between the frames on that loco

at the moment mine is tweezers just to get a bolt in had to fit some fitted bolts for the pony truck support today, and that is with frames that are 4 foot long and getting heaver by the day
it got all the stretchers as per full size all fabricated up

I must get some pics posted some time when all the wheels are on , what would you like top and bottom shots , but I will start a thread if I do post


Stuart


BTW boiler looking good so far but as you have guessed you are doing the easy heats wait till its altogether , eg foundation rings and back head then the fun will start 

the big burner in the pics should be OK looks to be a 73 kilo watt one , as the build progresses make sure you have enough fuel gas to complete the heat as running out is not fun


----------



## SBWHART (May 26, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> By gum Stew there is plenty of space between the frames on that loco
> 
> at the moment mine is tweezers just to get a bolt in had to fit some fitted bolts for the pony truck support today, and that is with frames that are 4 foot long and getting heaver by the day
> it got all the stretchers as per full size all fabricated up
> ...



Yes things can get a bit tight, when I was setting the valve timing on mine it took an age to take the valve cover off and put it back on again and as for getting the linkage in place, I must have lost a good few BA nuts and pins on the shop floor.

We've got two part used tanks of propane on the go, they have both bin used for quite some time so not sure how long they will last for, so we have a spare tank available. 

Also we have another 73 kilo watt burner available so we can run both torches with that size, also available is a pair of bigger burners, so hopefully we should be able to get enough heat into the larger mass of copper as the boiler nears completion.

Yes I would be interested in seeing some pics of your loco, if you've got an assembly rig Peter may find a pic of that useful also.

Peter I'm very interested in your Rob Roy thread as well.


Got a little more done today forming the firebox rapper:-

The rapper was cut to the correct size so first job was to anneal and pickle it then mark the middle and using the end plate former get it bent roughly to shape with the help of the vice, just by hand.






It was annealed and pickled again

Then using the tube plates as formers and bits of woods as bats it nocked to shape.






Tomorrow's job is to solder together the flue tubes the fire box tube plate and the rapper.


Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 26, 2010)

Fire box looking good glad you have though about the gas supply

no I do not have an assembly frame , the WS is quite small , with a Myford connoisseur , SX3 mill , band saw and cutter grinder its crowded, now that I need wheels myself I have to be careful. 

I have used one in the past but this one is very heavy and I worry about the stability.

over the assembly bench I have a 250kg electric hoist on a very heavy door track ( rated at 600kg ) , as the loco has lifting points in the design I use a lifting frame with the hoist. if that will not suffice the whole thing is rolled over.

what I try to do is to do all the work under the frames first

As I have said its 4 foot long tank engine and the tanks do not have a straight line in them the sides have a large radius inside and out

I have to find a way of reducing the pics as they are 18mp and soon expand to 50 mp if they have been edited


----------



## SBWHART (May 26, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> I have to find a way of reducing the pics as they are 18mp and soon expand to 50 mp if they have been edited



Thanks Stuart I appreciate the size of you loco better now.

I use Faststone Photo Resizer if you google it you can get a free down load.

Hope this helps

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 27, 2010)

thanks has to work on a mac tho


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## SBWHART (May 27, 2010)

Another master class from John on silver soldering.

This is the set up for soldering the flue tubes to the firebox tube plate, stepping the tubes worked great in prevent the tube plate slipping down, I cut a bricks to length to give a bit of support.






Some rings of solder were made by simply wrapping the rod around one of the tubes and snipped them off, the tube ends and tube plate were fluxed, and the solder rings placed over each of the tubes.






One things John has taught me is that you don't directly heat up the solder you start by adding background heat to the job slowly bringing the flame up to where the joint is to be formed this way you gat a uniform heat in the joint. We worked with two burners one each side of the job as the solder started to melt we moved the torch slowly around so that each ring of solder was melted in turn.

With the tubes fixed and after a spell in the pickle the rapper was soldered to the tube, this time the job was flipped over so that the tubes were on top, again lengths of solder were placed along the joint, and additional solder fed into the joint as it melted.

Here's the job before pickle.






And after

















Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 27, 2010)

looking good , now for the fun bit getting that lot inside the other bit and lined up.

as its a LSBC boiler I am assuming girder stay on the top of the fire box wrapper to the outer wrapper ;D they are fun to solder up


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## Blogwitch (May 27, 2010)

Very nice indeed Stew, I couldn't have done it any better myself.

BTW, I had to leave before the final pickle, so hadn't actually seen how well it turned out.

The hard bits are yet to come, but at least you are learning as we go along.


For when you build a bigger one. :


John


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## GWRdriver (May 27, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> . . . I am assuming girder stay on the top of the fire box wrapper to the outer wrapper ;D they are fun to solder up


They ARE fun to solder up . . . or at least were. I was having so much fun soldering the girder stays on larger fireboxes I felt I needed to do something to take some of the fun out of it. So I decided I would drill a couple of small feed holes in the shell over each stay flange, at least at the most inaccessible sections, and feed solder to those areas from the outside. I finish up by making sure there is a puddle of solder left in the feed holes. That did the trick and now I'm not having any fun at all.


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## SBWHART (May 28, 2010)

Yes it does use girder stays:- :-\ 

Talking to the inspector last week he said it would be acceptable to use a couple of rows of round stays, they would have to be 1 3/4 " long I can't find a source of rivets that long so I was wondering about making them from 3/16" copper rod I can thread this and screw them through the outer fire box into the inner that way they will stay in place whilst they are soldered, I've put the decision on hold until I talk it over in more detail with the inspector at the weekend.

Thanks for you input and comments Lads

Stew


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## lordedmond (May 28, 2010)

easily solved

use some bronze rod and squash the end ( a good old clout with a hammer) that will stop them falling out

no need to thread them at all SS as per normal

Stuart


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## SBWHART (May 30, 2010)

I like that idea Stuart.

Well the soldering is on the back burner (pun)  until I gat the work done so far, checked out by the boiler inspector. So did a bit of shop maintainance.
Nocked this tooling rack up, 







This frees up some space which in my small shop is at a premium.

Then did one or two machining jobs for the boiler first up the "Fire Hole" no not the sort you get after a night down the pub and a curry, the sort they shuvel the coal through.

Its made from a bit of thick wall copper tube:- a short step turned on each end so that you've got a 1/4" collar, a quick anneal and a soak in the pickle.






Then a squeeze in the vice to make it oval and here it is on the backhead.






Next up the bush for the water gauge, for some reason there is no dimensioned drawing for it, just a note saying 1/4* 32 thread. So this is my interpretation of what's required.

Using a chunk of Phos Bronze mark it out and rough it out.






This is one of those awkward jobs where if you don't machine it out in the correct order you'll end up not being able to grip it to finish the job.

Then as its got to fit on the 3 1/2 " dia boiler tube, set up the boring head to cut that dia. The body of the head is 50 mm so (88.9 - 50) / 2 = 19.5 thats what the tool has to stand out above the body to cut a 3 1/2 " dia.











With that set, pop the job in the vice, centre drill for the 1/4*32 zero up the DRO swap to the boring head and cut the rad.

















Then back to the zero position and drill for the thread.

Flip it round and drill the joining hole.






A clean up with a file and this is it on the boiler tube.






Stew


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## zeeprogrammer (May 30, 2010)

Wonderful thread Stew.
I really appreciate all the helpful tips and techniques.


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## SBWHART (May 30, 2010)

Thanks Zee

Showed the boiler to the inspector today big thumbs up . ;D

Stew


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## SBWHART (May 31, 2010)

Got a little bit more done today, cut the fire hole in the firebox back plate for the, just making it a nice fit just a little bit of movement from the fire hole ring.






Then soldered the ring in place, and while I was at it I solder some of the bushes in the backhead.











Thats a little more done.

Stew


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## Maryak (May 31, 2010)

Stew,

I have been quietly following along and this is going to be a really nice boiler. :bow: :bow:

A boiler is on my list but first I must finish the hit and miss. :

Best Regards
Bob


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## SBWHART (Jun 8, 2010)

Thanks Bob.

Things bin a bit slow as we had a short holiday in London.

The guys at the club and the boiler inspector advised me to use crown rivet stays as they are far easyer to put in and just as effective, as the girder stays specified in the drawing. I couldn't get any rivets long enough so decided to make some out of 3/16 copper rod, I made a little upsetting jig this is simply a 3/16 hole in a chunk of steel, split through so that the rivet can be removed. To make the rivets I cut some 40mm length of copper bar, annealed them then put one in the jig with a short length protruding grip it tight in the vice and give it a good wallop with a hammer to upset the head. You can get the idea from the pic.






Another bit of advice was not to try drilling rivet hole through both plates at the same time as the drill just wonders and the stays end up crooked, best to carfully mark the two parts out and drill them separately, this is the boiler tube marked out.






And the set up to hold the boiler on the mill table for drilling.






Drilling the stay holes, and safety valve hole






Drilling the hole for the steam dome.






for some reason the steam dome hole was going off line so finished the job off with a file.






Steam dome bush fitted.






Steam dome bush soldered to the boiler.






Drilling the stay holes in the firebox.






And a trial fitting of the parts the stays are not fully assembled in place.






John was coming over this afternoon to help solder the stays but it was raining so we,ve put it off until Thursday.

Cheers

Stew


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## arnoldb (Jun 8, 2010)

That's good going Stew Thm:

This looks to be quite a complex boiler! I did a bit of digging on the 'net, and found it is! :bow: - Great job!

Kind regards, Arnold


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## lordedmond (Jun 9, 2010)

Stew 

I am sure you know this but do not cut the stays off until you have SS the stays and pressure tested the boiler , they are needed to transfer the heat to the stay when soldering



Stuart


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## SBWHART (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks Guys

Stuart as you said I will leave the stays long as they help conduct heat into the silver solder joint, but I never thought of leaving them long until after the pressure test, as it will make any rework required easyer, good tip thank you.

Stew


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## lordedmond (Jun 9, 2010)

Stew

I assumed you knew about the stays , but as we are all aware these topics are read by others and as such postings may help others

I note you have done the dome bush a belated tip jig the bush into the correct position level both ways then scribe round were it meets the boiler shell then drill four 1/16 holes just above the line at the points of the compass insert four copper rivets and balance the bush on these on top of the tube and SS, keeps it level


its your pressure tests not the inspectors that I mean when doing the stays

Stuart


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## 78ths (Jun 9, 2010)

Hi Stew 
Thanks for taking the time to post this ongoing series. Looks really good so far. 
Thanks again
Ferd


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## SBWHART (Jun 9, 2010)

lordedmond  said:
			
		

> Stew
> 
> I note you have done the dome bush a belated tip jig the bush into the correct position level both ways then scribe round were it meets the boiler shell then drill four 1/16 holes just above the line at the points of the compass insert four copper rivets and balance the bush on these on top of the tube and SS, keeps it level
> 
> ...



Thanks Stuart I scratched my head about getting the done bush level in the end I resorted to rack of eye, but that's a real good tip for the future or any one else doing building a boiler, hopefully my eyes were in good form.

I was thinking when I've watched boilers being tested the stays have always been cut off, I just put it down to a different custom and practice at another club. For my test I was going to use a bicycle pump to put some pressure in the boiler and dunk it in the bath, if thats Ok, I was going to couple it up to my boiler feed pump and take it up to working pressure, if that OK then it will be over to the inspector. What routine have you used ?.

Thanks for your interest Ferd, I noticed this is your first post so welcome.

Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (Jun 10, 2010)

well as I have sated before , use your pressure gauge and check the mains water press. it should be about 80 psi , then use that for first test.

then I use a loco hand pump to twice the WP in your case I bet its 80 psi wp then 160psi test.
just make up the hand pump early 

under NO account pressurise the boiler with water and leave it to sit outside on a sunny/warm day. The sun is plenty hot enough to expand the water and put the press. us to very high levels . These pressures will/have over pressurised a new boiler to destruction ( no safety valves fitted for testing you are the safety valve )

Stuart


Ps got the non platform side valve gear fitted up yesterday now to make a scale wakefield lubricator about 1 x 3/4 x3/4 with a scotch bridle pump inside ( double O ring adjustable )


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## doubletop (Jun 10, 2010)

Stew

This may be unconventional but take a look at this option (scroll down) http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8687.msg95234#msg95234. These pumps are now cheapish ($15 on ebay) have a pressure gauge that go up to 300psi and the schrader valve thread is 5/16 x 32 so with a simple adaptor can go straight on the safety valve bush. It also allows you to bring the pressure up and down on steps so you progressively work harden the boiler that has been annealed through soldering. *. Note: This is about using the pump with water in a boiler completely filled with water not air*

Of course if your mains pressure is 80psi its an easier option but that can't do the 200psi you'll need to eventually test to. 

Pete


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## lordedmond (Jun 10, 2010)

Pete as Stew as not told us to the WP of the boiler we can only assume the test pressure its an LBSC ( Curly )so I assumed it to be 80 in keeping with his/her designs


it is first test to twice the WP and thereafter 1.5 time WP


my boiler is designed to work at 100psi therefore the initial test was 200 psi see my avatar


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## SBWHART (Jun 10, 2010)

The working pressure is 80 psi so the inspector will test it at 160 psi.

The rain kept off today so manages to get the crown stays done.

The parts were given a good clean and the rivets assembled as the rivet passed through the water space I threaded a ring of easy flow solder onto it, the parts were then fluxed and another ring of solder added to the outside of the boiler tube that way the solder between the plate fed the joint with the fire box and the outside solder fed the boiler tube: so that we did the outside and the inside at the same heating. 

The boiler was placed on the hearth firebox down, and with a large torch in the firebox and one smaller torch on the end of the rivet, on a roving mission, the solder soon melted all looked good, so after 1/2 hr in the pickle this is what we got.

Inside






Outside






In between






All the joints had a nice fillet of solder 

Before I do some more I need to get a few more rods of solder.

The next job will be the throat plate stays and the side stays:- 54 in total.

Cheers

Stew


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## lordedmond (Jun 10, 2010)

You are having to much fun with this.

keep up the steady progress as has been mentioned by others the heating now will get harder



Stuart


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## arnoldb (Jun 10, 2010)

Nice progress Stew :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (Jun 14, 2010)

Picked up some more silver solder yesteday I recon I will have put about £30 worth into the boiler by the time its complete. Got on with drilling the rest of the stays after carfully marking out started by drilling the holes in the throat plate, its a a real awkward position up underneath the boiler tube, so that I can reach made up a extended centre drill with a 1/8" drill at the other end:- this is the beast.







Drill a hole in the end and stuck them in place with Loctite.

They ran out quite a bit so had to get them running as best I could with a perswader :hammer: also centre popping the hole helped because of the length it was quite flexable so it found position for itselfe.

This is the set up first all the holes were centre drilled.






And drilled 1/8 right through throat plate and fire box.






And her it is with the stays assembled.






Called it a day at that and went in to watch the footie.

Stew


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## Paolo (Jun 14, 2010)

Whaoooooooo :bow: Very clean work....!
Best regards
Paolo


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## doubletop (Jun 15, 2010)

Its certainly looking good and I like the improvisation.

Pete


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## Blogwitch (Jun 15, 2010)

That's looking great Stew.

Get the others drilled and stays fitted, and we'll have a soldering session Friday morning, weather permitting outside, or even inside the garage if not.

Can't wait.

John


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## SBWHART (Jun 15, 2010)

Cheers John

Bit confused I thought we were on for Friday afternoon, probably me got my knickers in a twist again, morning will be fine though if that Ok with you, I'll give you a bell to confirm.

Got some more prep work done today for the next soldering campaign.

Drilled the holes for the side stays, 28 each side right through outer wrapper and fire box wrapper.
This is the set up the well annealed soft copper needed some support from Jacks, centre drill first then 1/8" drill, every fourth hole I pooped a rivet into to keep everything lined up






Gave the stays a trial fit, it looks like a hedgehog.






When it comes to soldering I'm going to thread a ring of solder over each stay as it passes through the water cavity, and one ring around the head of the rivet in the fire box that way each stay will get two rings of solder one to fill the fire box wrapper and the other to fill outer wrapper.

Made the rings by winding the solder around a length of 1/8 bar then snipping them off to make the ring.






And her they all are all 130 they used up 4 lengths of solder at 2 squid a length.






Cheers

Stew


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## mklotz (Jun 15, 2010)

> every fourth hole I pooped a rivet into to keep everything lined up



ROTFLMAO. That's an image that will haunt me the rest of the day.

Proofreading is a virtue.


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## SAM in LA (Jun 15, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> ROTFLMAO. That's an image that will haunt me the rest of the day.
> 
> Proofreading is a virtue.



You have to remember, its potty engineering.

 :big:


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## SBWHART (Jun 15, 2010)

:big: :big: :big: :big:

Whoopps fat finger syndrome.

 Still it raised a laugh.

Its a poor slip that doesn't raise a smile.

Stew


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## Blogwitch (Jun 15, 2010)

Marv,

You must have heard of the naval 'golden rivet' term, well these are copper ones, most probably for lower ranks and bilge rats. 

So in reality, they could most probably be 'pooped' in.

Bogs


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## zeeprogrammer (Jun 15, 2010)

I am really enjoying this thread Stew.
A boiler is in my future and I'm learning a lot.
Thanks.


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## SBWHART (Jun 18, 2010)

This soldering is getting to be routine with Johns help and guidance soldered the rest of the stays as for the crown stays we put a ring of solder in the water cavity and a ring on the head of the rivets positioned the boiler with the end of the rivets sticking down applied heat to the ends with the big torch and used the little torch for background heat and to locally boost heat where required, all went well, just a couple of stays needed a second heating and a bit more solder applying on the outside, the inside (fire box) all soldered well.

Here a few pics
















Taking it along to the inspector this Sunday whilst there I'll buy yet more solder.

Stew


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## lordedmond (Jun 18, 2010)

keep up the good work 

more copper to heat up now

I used to recon £50 for SS for a 3 1/2 none belpire boiler

just think of the SS to do the one in my avatar


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## SBWHART (Jun 26, 2010)

Bin away for a few days with my 85 year old Dad just to give him a bit of a holiday did him a world of good. 

Soldered the fire box back plate in place, couldn't get hold of John at short notice so press ganged my wife onto the job, she was a bit wary of the roaring gas torch at first, but she soon got the idea and carried out instruction faultlessly with no arguments, which for a strong minded woman must have bin very difficult.

This is the result











Started to mark the back head out for the fire hole and ran into a problem, The drawing for the fire box back plate is wrong it doesn't match up with the position shown an the back head, it positions it too high, I'm stuck with what is a wrong part assembled to the boiler, at the moment the fire door will foul the water gauge.

It looks like I'll have to juggle thing around to get things to fit, still thinking the problem through.

Stew


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## Blogwitch (Jun 26, 2010)

Nice work on the soldering Stew, looks like I will be made redundant soon.

My recommendation would be to cut the firehole out, or flatten it off on the inside and out, there is no way you are going to get it out of there without damaging all your previous solder work (if you remember, you used that hi temp solder on there). Then rivet (countersunk) and plate the hole over, larger than what is needed, and put a new fire hole in the correct position. There should be enough room for one thickness of plate. 

Don't struggle, I have a power belt file and plenty of flap wheels if needed. They would make very short work of it.

Just a suggestion.


John


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## SBWHART (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks John

I Nocked up a fire door this morning so I could 3D the problem :scratch:






Spent a bit of time down the club talking the option over with the guys, the best option would be to have the hinges at the bottom of the door, apparently on small gauge engines this arrangement is easy for driving, also did a bit of on line searching and found an engine the same as mine with the door hinged from the bottom it looks like the builder came across the same problem as me. Just to make sure I'm going to make the bottom end of the water gauge and the feed clacks so that I can check they won't foul the door, if they do only option will be to make a new back head and position the clacks under the door.

Stew


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## SBWHART (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks Guys

Made enough of the fitting so i could try the fit out, for those interested this is how to fabricate small boiler fitting up, this is for the clacks.

First turn up the parts drill a cross hole in the body 3mm, on the union leave a small boss 3.05 mm dia and drill a pilot hole in the other end part way through, press the boss into the body and solder the bits together.

These are the bits






Bits prepped for soldering parts fluxed and a small nugget of solder put on the joint.






When you solder the bits together don't direct the flame on the job you'll just blow the nugget off sneak up on it with the heat when the flux will go white then black then it melts when it melts it will hold the nugget in place give it more direct heat untill you see the nugget melt and flow into the joint, pickle, then drill through the pilot hole into the body, thats it job done






Now this shows the problem with the fitting in the boiler the door fowls them.











I arnt half glad I made the the fitting as anothe problem materialised, you can't fully screw the bits into the back head they clash with each other.






I'm going to make a new back head but I'll leave that till next week as I'm starting to get brassed off with it, and when that happens I make mistakes.

I may have said before that this was the last engine Curly designed before he passed away the drawing and ME article was finished off by Martin Evans and apparently the two didn't get on, the boiler fitttings are Martins designs they are obviously not what Curly intended, I wonder how many other builders have fallen at this hurdle.

Cheers

Stew


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## 4156df (Jun 30, 2010)

Stew,



> for those interested this is how to fabricate small boiler fitting up,


I'm definitely interested in how the small fittings are fabricated. The more detail, the better. Please keep posting about them. 

Sorry about the interference problem. Now's a good time to find it though.

Dennis


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## fcheslop (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi Stew, just a thought I wonder if Curly was going to use a banjo fitting for the gauge.


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## HS93 (Jun 30, 2010)

how about a Pair of elbows on the Gauge to off set it away from the fire hole. you could make a nice neat all in one elbow combining the gauge

just a thought, but I may be wrong about what goes there.

Peter


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## lordedmond (Jun 30, 2010)

LBSC did not use bushes on his/her boilers they where just screwed into the copper and soft solder run round to seal, as we now have to use bushes problems occur.

he/she did not lag the boilers at all , which causes problems with the smoke box dia , no room for lagging , I have mentioned before that the Doris drawings are also flawed with the longitudinal stays lower than the fire box crown.


If you are doing another back head plate lower the clacks below the fire box door and you will gain more room


as to Martin Evans he was no better than LBSC his drawings are full on errors parts that foul ect , the fitting he as quoted will be his standard ones


As a side note I wonder how many of the designs were actually built by the designers given the amount that they produced and the length of time it takes to complete the builds, I believe that they only built the mock up for the "new" bits for each one
I quote from one source " this part may be tricky to machine " read impossible

The nearest boiler part that had me stumped for a while was on Didcot ( 14xx) a 1 inch long bush with a 3/16 hole through it , but then machine a 'O' ring grove half way down the hole ( it is possible and it did not leak ) it was for the regulator shaft

Keep up the good work/problem solving Stew


Stuart


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## SBWHART (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks Stuart/Peter/Fcheslop

Peter thats not a bad idea I'm going to draw the back head up in cad and try out different options, and that will be one.

PS visited John today thats a neat hoist you left him.

Fcheslop:- Curlys engine is still knocking about I've posted a help ? on the ME site to see what it turns up you never know the owner of Curlys engine may answer my SOS.

Denis:- Thats no problem I'll add more details on the fittings when I get to them, I'm not to happy with the water gauge I had problems getting a tight thread the die was cutting small, I've got to grind a bit off the OD of the split die to allow it to spring open a bit more, with the adjusting screw in the die holder. The clacks are OK so I'll probably finish them off next week I'll tell how to seat the ball and adjust the lift.

Stuart

Your observation on drawing errors regardless of designer is spot on I think you must treat them with suspition and treat them only as a guide. I've got a copy of Martin Evans book "Manuel of Model Locomotive Construction" and the water gauge for Mabel is exactly the same as the one in his book, I think he must have just taken it from his drawing file and said this is it, and not given any thought about it fitting.

Cheers

Stew


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## GWRdriver (Jun 30, 2010)

> I've got a copy of Martin Evans book "Manuel of Model Locomotive Construction" and the water gauge for Mabel is exactly the same as the one in his book, I think he must have just taken it from his drawing file and said this is it, and not given any thought about it fitting. - Stew


Stew,
I've never studied his designs this closely or comparatively but one of the recurring criticisms I've heard of Martin Evans was that his designs contained recurring components cobbled from previous designs, valve gears are an example, and then not changed in order to better apply to the new design.
Cheers,
Harry


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## doubletop (Jul 1, 2010)

GWRdriver  said:
			
		

> .....................his designs contained recurring components cobbled from previous designs............



Don't we all do it, and anyway isn't it a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it.? I was having trouble getting a safety valve to work so dug out all the information I could get from the books on hand LSBC, Martin Evans, a sketch from Bogs etc. I came to the conclusion there were only minor evolutionary changes from LSBC's 1920's designs to modern versions. I had started to tabulate the dimensions to see what was common and noticed trends. It was only when I got a copy of the Kozo Hiraoka article on safety valves in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading Vol41 Issue 1 that confirmed there is a direct relationship in all the dimensions. So not much scope for variation and you can see why these guys would stick to what worked. Go to all the fitting suppliers, there's not much between all their products either, no doubt LSBC or Martin Evans copies. If you see Bogs Paddleduck engine it contains components from the French reciprocating Marine engine and Bogs makes no bones that he's copied the bits, even the Regner offerings have a striking resemblance to the French design.

I suppose the point is ensuring that the bits you use are fit for purpose, and probably a case of make the boiler fit the parts and not the parts fit the boiler.

_Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading Vol40 Issue 6, Vol41 Issue 1 and Issue 2 are a must have from Village Press in the US. They have articles by Kozo Hiraoka that are truly excellent (Safety of Copper Boilers, Safety Valves, Tube Joints, O rings for live Steam, Small Hex Head Screws)_


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## tel (Jul 1, 2010)

T'were me Stew, I'd relocate the clacks into the boiler barrel, up toward the front, and just blank those two holes off.


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## HS93 (Jul 1, 2010)

how about again small elbows to separate but then have in lin clacks.?

peter


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## GWRdriver (Jul 5, 2010)

> It was only when I got a copy of the Kozo Hiraoka article on safety valves in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading . . . that confirmed there is a direct relationship in all the dimensions.


Kozo is rather a latecomer. Among the good articles on making true "pop" safeties is a comprehensive article by Gordon Smith which appered in Engineering in MIniature Feb-Mar-Apr/2001. This is not everyone's cup of tea but articles published some years ago in Model Engineer by Roy Amsbury and Basil Palmer detail the building of working fittings in fine scale.


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## Dan Rowe (Jul 5, 2010)

doubletop  said:
			
		

> _Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading Vol40 Issue 6, Vol41 Issue 1 and Issue 2 are a must have from Village Press in the US. They have articles by Kozo Hiraoka that are truly excellent (Safety of Copper Boilers, Safety Valves, Tube Joints, O rings for live Steam, Small Hex Head Screws)_



Yes those articles by Kozo are very handy and they are all included in "Building the New Shay"



			
				GWRdriver  said:
			
		

> Kozo is rather a latecomer.



Interesting statment Kozo's first loco design was in Live Steam from 1974-1977.

Dan


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## SBWHART (Jul 6, 2010)

Over the last couple of days I've made the Turret or Manifold to none steam people.

But first to finish off the clacks, the balls need setting down to do this take a new 3/16 stainless ball bearing put it on the seating, and with a brass drift give it a sharp biff with a light hammer, throw the ball away as you've distorted it, replace it with a new one. Now make the cap first measure the depth to the ball and calculate the length of thread required to allow the ball to lift 1/32 ".

Here we are one done No two measured for the cap.







Now for the turret this is made from phos bronze I've bin using calphos which is a leaded bronze that machine very nicely. The body of the turret is made from a length of 3/8" dia material:- drill 1/8 27mm deep and drill and tap 3/16 * 40 ME 5mm deep the body uses a 1/8 steal ball valve for the whistle so the bottom of the 1/8 hole needs to be square and accurately depthed, so I made a flat bottom drill and set it to depth to the chuck face against a steel washer, and just kissed the bottom to bring it to the correct depth.






3/32 hole drilled right through the bottom for the plunger.

Keeping the job on the bar transfer to the mill in spin indexer, and drill the cross holes 3.5mm to locate the fitting for soldering.






Back onto the lathe part off to length flip it round and drill and tap the back end 3/16 * 40 ME

The fitting as there were 4 to make 1/4 * 40 turn up a length of bar enough to make all four and thread it with a die.











The turn up a 2mm long boss for a tight fit on 3.5mm hole drilled in the body part off






repeat repeat repeat.

Then flip them round in a collet:- face centre drill and drill a 3mm hole part way through.






Turn up the other 5/16 fitting

Here they are assembled to the body.






And fluxed with a little nugget of silver solder waiting for some heat.






Again sneak up on it with the heat the flux will go white then black then it will melt more direct heat until the solder melts, pickle for 1/2 hr.

Then set up in the mill and with the aid of the 3mm pilot holes drill through into the body. If you stick a bit of wire down the hole you'll feel/see the drill start to tickle it when it breaks through.






Set the ball down on the seating as for the clacks.






Then make the whistle lever thing sorry this is the only pic I took.






And her we are turret finished.






With the bits made I can now see the best way to fit them on the back head, I think I'm going to black the bush up on the left next to the water gauge and move the boiler feed clack to the top right hand side.

Like this






Cheers

Stew


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## ChooChooMike (Jul 6, 2010)

sbwhart  said:
			
		

> If you stick a bit of wire down the hole you'll feel/see the drill start to tickle it when it breaks through.



What a GREAT tip !! 

It's really PITA shining a flashlight down a similar hole and trying to see when the drill bit is breaking through and not have it come out the other side 

Thanks !!

Mike


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## SBWHART (Jul 15, 2010)

Cheers Mike 


Well I slowed things down a bit after the problem I had with the position of water gauge and clack bushes being 1/4" too high, I wanted to give the problem some thought before I jumped in. Just to recap I decided to hinge the door from the bottom, blank one of the bushes off and move one of the clacks to the side of the boiler, on Monday I opened up the hole for the fire door and drilled the holes for the 6 front stays, I was now in a position to solder the back head in the boiler but first I tried the fit of the longitudinal stays, they wouldn't fit they fouled on the fire box, the penny finally dropped the error wasn't with the drawing but with me.

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

I'd only gone and positioned the fire box 1/4" too high.

Nothing for it but to make a new backhead with the holes for the longitudinal stays 1/4 higher.

Here's the old backhead with the new one cut out ready for bashing round the former.






I spent Tuesday making the new backhead, sorry no pics

Today another master class from John soldering the back head into the boiler:- her we have it
















And the top boiler bushes for the turret and water gauge.






I'll take it along to the inspector this weekend for him to have one final look before I close everything up next week with the final soldering session, fingers crossed.

Stew


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## lordedmond (Jul 15, 2010)

don't forget to put on the small square strips on the sides for it to sit on the frames 

glad you have fitted the bushes for the door fixings


Stuart


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## larry1 (Jul 15, 2010)

This is a great looking boiler. Sorry to see the other backhead, but this one is a great looker too. Larry1


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## Blogwitch (Jul 15, 2010)

What Stew didn't mention was that as this is getting towards the end of the build, we had to use some usually no no things to get the job done.

Like putting the flames directly onto the solder and flux side of things, and hence the rather large spread of solder over the surface. But other than that, I think we were both suprised at how well it turned out, especially as the wind was cooling everything down, and so took a lot longer to get up to working temperature.

Not much to do now Stew, and it will be ready for pressure testing.


John


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## arnoldb (Jul 15, 2010)

;D Alls well that ends well Stew. At least you could recover, and your boiler's coming along really well :bow: - I'm rather envious!

Bogs, I was wondering how some bits could go together without doing the direct flame - ;D - thanks for the "how not to 'duit' unless absolutely necessary" bit.

I'm holding both thumbs for the boiler inspection Stew - I want to wish you good luck, but I'm sure its not "luck" that will make the boiler pass - just a lot of hard and careful work Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## Blogwitch (Jul 15, 2010)

Arnold,

I don't want to take anything away from Stew at all, he has worked wonders making this boiler, especially as he had never built one before.

I am only there as an adviser and helper, just showing Stew a few techniques that are needed at times like this, and I am sure, the next one he builds will be under his own steam and guidance.

BTW, what you are seeing now, with the solder all over the place is only cosmetic. The boiler will look great when it has it's spikes cropped and a good brushing off with a brass wheel.

John


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 15, 2010)

Best of luck Stew.
Very interesting build.
I'm learning much for the day I build a boiler.


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## arnoldb (Jul 15, 2010)

John, thank you, I know and fully appreciate that ;D - maybe my wording was a bit "wrong"; I have to work at that.
Stew's doing a GREAT job and I didn't mean to detract from that at all. You just offered a "golden howto tidbit" on what is sometimes needed, and I took a personal note as a student myself.

 ;D From my very limited experience of making a much simpler boiler, Stew's doing a much better job than I did - much less solder all over the place than I had ;D - like I said : GREAT job Stew Thm:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for your comments lads much apreciated.

Got the last bit of soldering done this morning with John.

First up the foundation ring which is made from 1/4" square copper rod, just cut and file to fit, to stop the bits falling into the boiler when evering expands on heating we simply drilled 1/16 through the outside and into the ring and put some copper rivets into the holes, you don't hammer the rivets over just place them in so they act as pegs. Everything was given a short pickle and clean and a good fluxing and rods of solder placed over the joints with a double dose at the corners, and some flux on the solder, the fire box was filled with thermalite block to keep the heat on the foundation ring. I had a pic of this but deleted it by mistake :doh: . Then with two butane torches we applied the heat it took quite a while for it to get up to temperature then as the solder melted we added more solder to fill the joints, when it looked OK let everything cool a bit then a quench in water and a pickle, this is the results.











Next we did the two bushes on the side of the boiler for the feed clacks, sorry no pics.

And the last soldering job for the boiler was the boiler tube plate, similar procedure as before this is the set up before soldering, rings of solder arround the flue tubes and arround the outside of the plate.






Two torches again with more solder added as melting temerature was reached.

We had to reheat and resolder two of the flue tubes as the solder had failed to flow into the joint.

This is the final result.






Well hopfully that all the soldering done, I've got to make some blanking plugs and fit the longitudinal stays before I do a pressure test, that will be in a couple of weeks as I'm still waiting for a calibrated pressure gauge.

Fingers crossed for the pressure test.

Stew


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## SAM in LA (Aug 4, 2010)

Stew,

Looks like your boiler is coming along well.

I have a new found respect for the effort and skill required to build a boiler.

Good luck on your pressure test.

Regards,

SAM


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## lordedmond (Aug 4, 2010)

looking good

I told you would need a lot of heat as things progressed 

what about the wet header bush and the stays in the smoke box?

good luck with the 2x wp test the joints look fine but until the pressure is up you never know


Stuart

just spent all day fitting out the smoke box plenty of dummy bolts and rivets to put in now I have to make up the working vacuum ejector for the side of the smoke box not looking forward to the ejector steam and vac cones


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## doubletop (Aug 5, 2010)

Stew

Looking good; and an excellent reference thread for those of us who've never done this before. Not for the feint hearted I'd say. I've found I have all the parts for one of these in my stock as it appears my dad bought the whole Rob Roy kit and then had the boiler built professionally. So I may give it a go sometime.

The only thing I don't have in my toolkit is a John Bogs. Must do wonders for your confidence with one close at hand.

Pete


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## Blogwitch (Aug 5, 2010)

Pete,

You are quite right, it is not for the feint hearted.

We were really a little under torched, but it is a very close thing between having too little heat and too much. It is very easy to undo previously soldered areas, and planning the stages and boiler position were the main issues, plus working as a team to get the heat and solder in the right place.

You are completely wrong when you say I am a necessary item in Stews toolkit, it was a combined effort, and Stew had just as much input as myself.

It was such a shame that we didn't get a couple of the tubes on the first firing, it is very difficult to see when the temp is on there and so much flux about. The first firing looked perfect, then we had to do the local repairs, which didn't come out too neat as we were afraid of remelting previous joints. But it is only cosmetic and should easily clean off with a little elbow grease.

John


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## Paolo (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi stew
this is an excellent reference thread all of us. I'm following your post with particular attention, you know why, fingers crossed for your pressure test!!
Best regards
Paolo


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## SBWHART (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for your good wishes Guys.

I spent the day making the blanking plugs for the pressure test, when it came to the steam dome I found that I was short of a couple of 8BA screws so they ar on order, I did notice that one of the backhead stays inside the firebox doesn't seem to have have any solder around it, so that causing me some concern, it's at the front so it can be got at. Don't know how it was missed because everything was carefully checked, but its not always easy to see what's going on, and I think repeated heating and pickling show things up.

We will see

Stew


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## doubletop (Aug 5, 2010)

> You are completely wrong when you say I am a necessary item in Stews toolkit, it was a combined effort, and Stew had just as much input as myself.



John

I wasn't saying a necessary part of the toolkit. Just that knowing you have the tools helps, but you may never need to use them.

_EDIT

Actually that's all you guys. The online toolbox of knowledge_

Pete


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## SBWHART (Aug 7, 2010)

As it will be a couple of weeks before I can pressure test for real I was bitting at the bit just to do a low pressure test.

Before I go on just a warning so that no one gets the wrong message:- DO NOT CONNECT A BOILER TO A COMPRESSOR IT IS VERY DANGEROUS.

Ok what I did was make a connector for a bicycle pump, immersed the boiler in water and with a few strokes of the pump just enough to raise the pressure by a few PSI to see if there were any leeks, the only leeks I had were from the screw plugs for the regulator and the longitudinal stays which are easily fixed, there was nothing from any of the soldered joints:- so far so good.







Stew


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## lordedmond (Aug 7, 2010)

get your self a bottle of Glenfarclas 105 to celebrate  

http://www.whiskyshop.com/Shop/Detail.aspx?whisky=Glenfarclas-105-Cask-Strength-Whisky&pid=2569

beware though its about 140 degrees proof drink with care ;D


Stuart


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## Blogwitch (Aug 7, 2010)

Stew,

I hope you made sure Dot wasn't anywhere nearby when you took it into the house to test it in the kitchen sink. 

But thinking about it, you must have, you are still alive to post about it. :big:

Nice one.

John


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## SBWHART (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks Stuart/John

Dot was still in bed when I tested it, by the time she got up everything was cleared away ;D

Stew


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## arnoldb (Aug 9, 2010)

Stew, that's good news from your test 

Best wishes for the tests with the boiler inspector!

Regards, Arnold


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## SBWHART (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the good wishes Arnold.

I've had this on hold for a few weeks, as I've been waiting to have some pressure gages checked out I'd acquired them over the years and was not sure if they were working OK and I didn't want to test the boiler with them not being sure if they worked. The guy who was going to check them let me down somewhat so last weekend I retrieved them.

After giving it some thought I thought the best thing to do was to make a manifold so that I could compare the gauges one with the others (I've four to choose from) that way a faulty gage would be eliminated by the other three.

I connected them to the boiler feed pump I made, like this looks a bit heath but it worked.






I couldn't get the gauges to tighten so that you could see both faces.

But this is what I got.











They were all different scales but I was able to detect that one gauge was reading 20 PSI light so that was dumped the other three were Ok and gave similar readings with each other.

Tomorrow will know be the big day:-I'll fix a couple of leeks i've got with the screw coupling on the regulator and one of the screwed longitudinal stays, then it will be fingers crossed.


This will be own test if all goes well I'll cut the end off the stays off and submit the boiler for official inspection.

Stew


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## Blogwitch (Aug 27, 2010)

Good luck Stew.

If you need a hand, just shout out.

John


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## SBWHART (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks John


Well I sort of tested the boiler yesterday, I took it up to 40psi there was a leek from the inside of the hollow blower stay, so I gave the nut a tweak, when ping the bloody thing broke.






 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

So did a bit of investigating the drawing calls for 5/32*22g copper pipe I was supplied 3/16*22g pipe as part of the boiler kit which I turned the end down and threaded 5/32 * 40 which had the effect of thinning the wall of the tube down that and being one turn short to tighten the nuts down resulted in overloading and the break. So I've got to order some 5/32 pipe next week before I can conduct the test again. On the positive side as 40 psi there was no signs of any other leeks.

Stew


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## lordedmond (Aug 29, 2010)

looking good so far, don't forget take it to say 40 hold for ten mins let off pressure ,then take it to say 80 for ten mins then let it off



this is to work the copper a bit as its in a fully softened state at this time this will put some strength back into the copper


Stuart


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 29, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the pipe.

Neat idea with the pressure gauges.


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## Blogwitch (Aug 29, 2010)

Stew,

If that is standard 5/32" (4mm) copper tubing, I have a load in the back of my shop.

I thought I had given you some, but if you want to call round, you can have a goodly length.


John


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## SBWHART (Aug 29, 2010)

I thought that was 1/8 John ??? :- I'll check it out before I order any.

Thanks

Stew


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## Blogwitch (Aug 29, 2010)

No Stew, it was 1/8" I gave you last week, I thought I had given you some 5/32" many moons ago, or it might have been someone else, the brain cells aren't too retentive nowadays.

But if you don't have any, there is plenty here for you to be going at. I will never use all I have.

John


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## SBWHART (Sep 12, 2010)

An update:-

I've now tried two more blower tubes using tube from different suppliers, John and maccmodels, Johns tube was 5/32" I don't know what the wall thickness was, the macc tube was 5/32 * 22g (0.028 wall thickness) they both went ping when I tried tightening them down, now you're probably thinking I over tightened, but this is far from the truth, as a rule I'm what you would call a gentle engineer, some times I would admit I'm too gentle, and having one tube break I was extremely careful. The drawing calls for 5/32" tube it doesn't say what gauge. To put some numbers around the problem in the UK the standard gauge for 5/32 pipe seems to be 22g (0.028" or 0.71mm) this has to be threaded 5/32*40 ME that will leave a wall thickness less than 0.015" or 0.38mm no wonder it's breaking. 

I'm left with a number of options:-

Find some 3/32 tube with a thicker gauge, I've located a supplier who has some 20g (0.036" or 0.92mm) tube but I think he will only be interested in supplying a couple of tons which is out of the question I'm going to call him on Monday and see if he will supply me a small sample (don't ask don't get)

I can get 3/16 * 18g (0.048" or 1.2mm) tube, I would have to increase the thread in the fitting to 3/16 * 40 ME this would leave me a wall thickness of 0.032" or 0.81mm or more than twice what I've got know.

Fit a solid stay and rout the blower around the outside of the boiler.

I think I'm going to go for the 3/16 tube unless any of you Guys can suggest anything else.

Stew


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## Blogwitch (Sep 12, 2010)

Stew,

Make up a bronze fitting for either end, with a goodly amount of strength in it, then silver solder say a piece of 1/8" tube between the two. That should be a lot stronger than actually threading the pipe itself.

See C-o-C.

Or you can come around and root thru what pipe I do have. I think I have some 4mm stainless, but it is only thin wall, also, I think I have some 3/32" thick wall, But you would have to root thru my stocks to find it.

John


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## lordedmond (Sep 12, 2010)

as posted on the other site

fit a solid stay and run the blower feed external ( you can then size it as required without messing with the boiler )

this will save you much grief

Stuart

ps I would not recommend stainless pipe SS into the boiler as a regulator part yes , but part of the boiler construction no


Stuart


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## SBWHART (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks John/Stuart 

Well today i took delivery of a solid stay, it didn't break but a I still had difficulty getting the threads to seal I tried ptfe tape but the joints just kept weeping, next try I'll use copper slip to seal the threads as suggested.

But I did get it up to 160 psi a couple of times and it held pressure long enough for me to check out all the soldered joints and they were all good, I'm now going to cut off the spikes and book the boiler in for a test with the inspector.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D






Happy Stew


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## Blogwitch (Sep 14, 2010)

As long as you have it sorted Stew, that is all that matters.

Well done on getting it up to pressure with no leaks.


John


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## lordedmond (Sep 15, 2010)

Stew

If your Boiler inspectors are like ours they will tolerate a weep on a fitting as long as the structure is sound , as most weeps will take up when steamed a bit of lime gets in and does the job


well done you will have learned a lot about copper smithing during this build



next thing is set fire to it and do the steam test


Stuart


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## SBWHART (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks John/Stuart

I repeated the test this morning using copper slip to seal the threads it worked great.






I then cut off the spikes and cleaned the boiler up with a brass wire brush.

Then I couldn't resist seeing how it looked between the frames






Starting to look like a proper loco now.

Stew


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## arnoldb (Sep 15, 2010)

> Starting to look like a proper loco know.


Indeed it does Stew - great job! :bow: :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


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## SAM in LA (Sep 15, 2010)

Stew,

Great job!

I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Regards,

SAM


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## kustomkb (Sep 15, 2010)

It's looking great. Congratulations on the pressure test.

Looking forward to more.


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## Maryak (Sep 15, 2010)

Stew,

Absolutely Fantastic boiler. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## SBWHART (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks for your kind comments Guys

Stew


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## doubletop (Sep 16, 2010)

Nice job Stew I'm sure you are pleased with it.

Good to see you are painting as you go. The complete dismantle I'm doing so I can paint mine is slow going. Having to take apart something that was working well is hard. When you've done it three times because something isn't quite right or doesn't work as well as it did, is painful. 

Pete


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## compspecial (Dec 14, 2010)

Stew, you are a true perfectionist


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## SBWHART (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi Compspecial thanks for your kind comment I don't know about perfectionist I just try and do my best.

Peter

Sorry about the long wait fro the reply, I've put the loco build away for a bit but I'll be starting again some time in the new year, when I intend to strip it all down give chase and wheel a final paint and put it together correcting all my little mistakes that I know are their as I go and then start on the smoke box and the plate work.

But before that happens I've a bit of shop maintenance work to do and I want to build a stationary engine like this






I'm about 1/2 way through the drawing pack and will make a start when the weather gets better.

Then it's going to be a single minded effort on the loco.

Stew


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## doubletop (Dec 15, 2010)

Stew

Had thought it had gone a bit quiet on this thread. I've just noticed that the valve gear is in place so it really is a case of plate work and fittings.

I look forward to the restart at some point

Pete


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## GWRdriver (Dec 15, 2010)

Stew,
I was about to post you off board to ask "ow's it going?" but I can see that it's going very well. Nicely done.

You don't give this as a reason for setting the project aside but I've found that I need to take an occasional break (sometimes involuntary) from my long-term project and do something else for a while. I find this not only renews my resolve to complete the project but cleanses and clears the mind and makes decisions easier to make and problems easier to solve. I'm about to return to work on my current project (with renewed vigor) after a long involuntary break. I look forward to seeing how you come along on what looks to be a wall engine, or a horizontal mounted in the vertical.


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## shoey51 (Dec 17, 2010)

I am also looking forward to the restart on the project
great work as usual Stew 

cheers Graham


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## SBWHART (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks Graham Harry

Harry as you I find putting a long term project like the loco build to one side helps when you pick it up again, you may not be working on it physically but your mind keeps running over it and I find I make mental lists of thing I want to do and bits of kit and material I need to get round me for the next stage.

I've nearly got the set of plans drawn up for the wall engine, sitting in a nice warm house doing drawing is far better than standing in a cold workshop 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I'll post the drawing when I've got them done for comments and input from you guys, I'm currently having a good think about drawing up a Governor for it, but can't get my head round how you vary the speed it operates at.

Thanks again

Stew


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