# Mate diesel from Motor Boys plan book (long)



## ariz

hello guys
here we are again with a new engine
I don't like the premises, but few words are necessary here
I would like to document my bilds and publish them in the 'work in progress' section, but I discovered that I cannot do it for now: I have little time to work in the shop and mostly I'm too tired to take pictures, upload and explain them
for us who are not british/english speaking, it isn't so easy to write long post full of detailed explanations, expecially in the night, when one is tired after a working day
I browse the forum often and it is always a pleasure, but rarely I find the energy to post and interact with you, and this is a great worry for me, expecially when I see admirable masterpieces but I cannot find the words to express
fortunately there is the 'photos and video' section where I can put a brief summary of the build
hummm... I apologize for the premise, I don't like them! I had already said it?

well, I'm sorry for the quality of the pics too: I took them under a LED lamp and they are a bit too dark
in return, the flaws were very emphasized, maybe for the tangent light, indeed the engine isn't so bad

this is my 4th engine, and my second IC engine
I won the POM in august 2009 with my second steam engine, so in the last year I built two IC engine, the scuderi and this one
the scuderi still doesn't run ( :-\ ), hope that this one would be luckiest  

it is the australian mate diesel by david owen, and I took the plans on the 'model engine plan book' published by the motor boys (http://modelenginenews.org/), that I bought some time ago
well, now the pics...

the crankcase, aluminium

















the crankshaft, steel











the head and backplate, aluminium






the conrod and prop driver (aluminium) and the compression screw, steel











cylinder (steel), piston and contrapiston, cast iron: the inside and outside of the cylinder looks worse than they are











this pic of the head is to show what happens when the soft wheel that you're using to polish a part catch it and shoot it away (little signs at 9 - 10 o'clock) 






the spraybar, brass (here not soldered yet)






this is the setup to lap the piston, suggested in the book: very effective






the remaining pics are a sequence of the assembly































well, what else?
now I need to build a binding, something to secure the engine to the bench
some sort of tank for the gasoline (btw, what type may I use to start the engine?)
and a propeller... but I don't think to fly a plane with the engine, may I use something else instead of the propeller to start the engine?
or I need to buy a propeller, because I'm not able to build it :-\

that's all... I apologize if there are too many pics in the post, hope that you like them
thank you


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## kustomkb

Very nice work Ariz, your engine looks great!

Interesting set-up with the die handle for external lapping.

I look forward to see the engine running..


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## SAM in LA

Ariz,

Thank you for showing us your pictures.

Your engine looks great.

Show us a movie when it is running.

SAM


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## m_kilde

Ariz

Thank you for the story. A post like this can never have too many pictures ;D


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## GailInNM

Ariz,
Nice photo photo review of your engine build. Thank you.

For fuel you will need to blend your own if no commercial model diesel fuel is available. A discussion of the fuel requirements can be seen at:

http://modelenginenews.org/faq/index.html#qa1

I used to blend my own, but now use a commercial fuel as it is easily available. 
Bob (Maryak) has built two diesels in the work in process section and mixed his own fuel as no commercial fuel was available in Australia. 

You can run the Mate with a flywheel but only for brief periods of time as it will probably overheat without airflow over the cooling fins.

Gail in NM


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## thayer

If you can build that engine the prop shouldn't be any trouble at all. Here is a page with the basics. Just substitute hardwood for the balsa shown and cut from a solid piece.

http://www.gryffinaero.com/models/ffpages/tips/propcarve.html

Thayer


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## gbritnell

Ariz, very nice work indeed. I think the parts came out great. The crankshaft machining looks super. I hope you have better luck running it than your previous effort. As nice as it looks I should think you won't have any problems.
George


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## zeeprogrammer

No apologies please.
That's some fine work. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## ariz

thank you all for your kindly words, I appreciated them very much

thank you gail for the info about the fuel mix and the flywheel
I forgot to mention the Maryak's thread on the build of an aero engine, I drew it with both hands ;D

thanks thayer fot the link on the prop, but I think you overstimate my skills


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## ariz

*...and two!!!*

2 engines that don't run at all are a very depressing experience. I start to think that I'm simply not able to make IC engines. steam engines, or rather steam engines running on air, are within my reach, but anything more complex is out of my reach.
this is very sad, but it is a fact

anyway, I waited a couple of months for the ether and when finally I got it I mixed my own fuel: 1 part of ether, 1 of diesel fuel and 1 of castor oil.
I tried everything and more, but apart from some occasional pop (1-2 seconds, maybe 30-50 revs) , the engine didn't run.

I know that you guys would like to help me but, believe me, save your breath... there is nothing to do. the timing is correct and the only possible cause could be a leakage or a poor compression. there aren't leakages (immersed the engine in a liquide), so the last candidate is the combination cylinder - piston (and contrapiston).
but I built another couple of pistons, more tight, and lapped the cylinder every time with the new piston... I don't have any more resource, and I'm downhearted too...
so, today I abandoned the project and placed the engine in a drawer, out of sight.
I don't want to see it anymore.

now I am uncertain whether to resume the scuderi engine to see if I can fix it (with the great risk of a new disheartening experience) or to start a completely new building
in this case I would like to build the most easy IC engine of the universe, so if I will fail again, I'll understand that this hobby isn't for me
time ago I dreamed to build a V2 or a V8... what a stupid arrogant!


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## Maryak

Ariz,

The diesel fuel for these engines is not diesel fuel but kerosene. Aviation fuel or power kerosene is better if you can get it but home kerosene is OK. A starting off mix is 35% Kerosene, 35% Ether and 30% Castor oil. Later you can reduce the Castor oil to 25% and increase the Kerosene to 40%. You can also add 1.5% IPN, (nitro) and a 1.5% less Kerosene. This is normally done after a run in period.

Hope this helps and good luck.


Best Regards


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## Kermit

Warm that cylinder up, however you can. Oven, torch, boiling water. Then give it another try.


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## krv3000

brill engine ;D


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## ariz

thank you
Bob I had heard that kerosene and diesel fuel are nearly the same...
Kermit I'll try what you have suggested (in a couple of days, because my right arm is sore for several attempts to start the engine ;D)

thanks again


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## Maryak

ariz  said:
			
		

> Bob I had heard that kerosene and diesel fuel are nearly the same...



Ariz,

I don't believe the above is correct - below are extracts from their specs to highlight the important differences.

Spec           Kerosene              Automotive Distillate.
Viscosity @ 40       1.25                    3.4
Flash Point C        43                      80
GCV MJ/l           37.1                    39.3

Also I forgot to mention that the order of mixing the fuel is relevant to a good mix. The ether and castor oil are mixed together before adding this solution to the kerosene. Then shake well. Don't mix more than 100ml at a time and keep in a sealed container or the ether will evaporate out of the mix.

Hope this helps a bit more.

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment PREPARATIONS FOR RUNNING.doc


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## ariz

hummm... the differences in the specs are very interesting...
so it is the order of mixing the fuel... hummmm

here I can find kerosene only in drum of 25 liter, but the desire to see the engine running is too much for stopping now 

ok, I'll give it another try
thank you Bob


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## cidrontmg

Ariz,
Another thing you might use for kerosene is known as Lamp Oil, sold for oil lamps. One common brand is Lamplight Farms, american, but readily available here in Portugal in DIY shops and camping suppliers. There are other brands also here. 

Lamp Oil is "refined" kerosene. It doesn´t soot the lamp glass as easily as ordinary kero. And it´s also less smelly (practically no smell at all). So it will be better in a diesel motor. It´s available in 1 liter plastic flasks (instead of 25 liters!), and costs next to nothing. It´s still sold, although Portugal is 100% electrified, not a single village relies on oil lamps. It will certainly be better than ordinary diesel motor fuel 
Ordinary kero is smelly, but in a small diesel, the smell comes mainly from burning castor oil anyway... And a nice smell it is  ;D


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## ariz

thank you too Cid, sure 1 liter is better than 25!!!

I'll report the news, if there will be any


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## quinette7

Ariz-

I only randomly visit this site, but when I saw your post today, I just had to submit my first reply here.

Don't give up on your "Mate" Diesel! It will run! Mine did! - but not at first. It turned into a true learning experience.

I built mine about 20 years ago from the aluminum extrusion kit. It was one of my projects, and my first attempt at an IC engine, so my skills weren't adequate. I too was disappointed when it didn't run, but I didn't know how to make it any better, and had no one to turn to for help. The compression was too low, and the connecting rod probably would have broken if it had run.

I must say that judging from your pictures, yours is much better built than mine is.

When it didn't run, I set it aside - for 20 years. Then I built a Stirling engine from an Andy Ross kit - and it didn't run. Too little compression and too much friction. Then it took me 14 years to complete a Young "Hit-n-Miss" engine. It RAN! Then I took a second at the Stirling, and with guidance from Andy Ross, I got it to run, too. After frustrations, but final success, with two more Stirlings, I figured it was time to apply what I had learned to the "Mate".

I got the "Mate" running just last month. I posted a 10 second video of it on YouTube. 

 [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZvmdtID2qY[/ame]

Maybe my experience will help you.

I found that I had too much leakage past both the piston and the contra-piston, so I made both of them over. The original plans suggested using Brasso metal polish for the lapping compound. That didnt work for me. After trying several other things, I found that diamond paste worked real well when embedded into an aluminum lap. Ive read that copper works even better, but I used the material that I had on hand. I re-lapped the original cylinder bore with an ID lap, and the pistons with an OD lap. I believe the cylinder had a slight taper, so as I lapped the power piston would fit incrementally further up the cylinder. I stopped when the piston was tight at the point it touched Top Dead Center. The contra-piston fits very tightly into the cylinder  that was a main leakage point previously. It wont retract when I turn the engine by hand, but it does when the engine fires. When I rotated the crankshaft with the power piston in the cylinder, but not the contra-piston, it turned freely except for a small but noticeable amount of friction at TDC. Fully assembled, there is a definite little pop when I spin the propeller.

I used a commercial model airplane diesel fuel sold by Davis Diesel Development http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/home.php because a local hobby shop had some on the shelf. I have not yet tried to mix my own fuel. I suggest that if you mix your own fuel to try to test IT first in a commercial model airplane diesel engine. I believe that ether is a key component, and if it evaporates too quickly, even commercial engines wont run.

In the video, you will notice that my engine has a spinner on the propeller. That is because it will not start by hand  even to restart when the engine is warm. I have to break RULE #1 of running model airplane diesel engines, which is. Never use an electric starter. I have to use an electric starter with my Mate. The danger with an electric starter is that if there is too much liquid fuel in the cylinder, you can damage the connecting rod or crank pin when the piston hits TDC. So I dont put priming fuel on the piston, and no more than a drop into the venturi. Mine will start without priming fluid, now that I have the settings dialed in. I suggest you flip the prop over by hand a time or two before using the electric starter, just to make sure.

My engine runs best when the contra-piston is backed off ¾ turn from the point that the two pistons touch, and the needle valve is 2 turns open. I used inch standard threads for these parts, and I expect that you used metric according to the original drawings, so your settings may be a little different than mine, but not too much. My engine responds well to adjusting the compression and mixture, but both have a wide range in which the engine will run.

Oh, yeah, wear earplugs when you start it. It will be pleasingly LOUD! Shivers went thru my body when mine finally ran.

Bob G


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## ariz

thank you Bob G
I'm honored that you made your first post in answer to my problems, and reading your experience with the Mate encouraged me to continue in the attempts to run it.
I'm just doing exactly what you did: today I started to make another piston, because I suspect that most of the problems are there... lack of compression
In some days we'll know if there will be another Mate running out there or not  

thank you again, a karma point for you (and everyone who replied  )


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## dsquire

quinette7  said:
			
		

> Ariz-
> 
> I only randomly visit this site, but when I saw your post today, I just had to submit my first reply here.
> 
> Don't give up on your "Mate" Diesel! It will run! Mine did! - but not at first. It turned into a true learning experience.
> .
> .
> ...
> 
> Bob G



Bob

Welcome to HMEM Bob. Thanks for dropping by and giving Ariz a hand. I am sure that he appreciates it.

I notice that you have been a member for close to a year now and have your first post under your belt. With your experience I am sure that you will fit right in to many of the forums on the board. When you have a chance perhaps you could post some pictures of a couple of your engines that you have crafted over the years. It would be nice to leave an introductory post telling a bit about yourself in the "Welcome" section of HMEM. I look forward to seeing more posts from you in the future. 

Cheers 

Don


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## quinette7

Ariz -

I am sitting here admiring your helical knurls on the prop driver of your Mate Diesel. The knurls on my Mate don't look anywhere near that good. I'd like to emulate yours on my current MLA diesel construction. How did you do that?

Bob G


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## 777engman

Hey there, just wondering if you ever got the mate and the other engine running?
Dean


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## Mechanicboy

ariz said:


> I'm just doing exactly what you did: today I started to make another piston, because I suspect that most of the problems are there... lack of compression





To create tapered cylinder: Piston create tapered piston when the piston is lapped into the cylinder at final stage. 
To test fit is correct: Dry piston/cylinder ---> tight to enter into cylinder. Oiled piston/ cylinder ---> The piston is loose fit in BDC cylinder and tight in TDC.


Lets take a look at a typical lapping job - that of producing a fine finished bore and piston for an IC engine. In fact, piston and bore are both lapped in separate operations (NOT both together). All of these operations will be carried out in the lathe (and I need hardly mention the importance of keeping lapping compounds off the machine, particularly the chuck and slideways). For the bore an expanding lap is ideal, and this should be some 3-4 times the total length of the bore. The first grade of abrasive would be mixed with light machine oil (10W or lighter) and liberally coated on the inside of the workpiece. Similarly, the slurry would be added to the outside (and inside assuming it is of the ventilated type) of the lap. The lathe would be started at about 300rpm (for a nominal 1" bore) and the lap passed rapidly through the bore, keeping it moving back and forth without it coming out the bore. How to hold the lap? well, perhaps the best way is with a 'floating' tailstock holder, and failing this holding with the hand is a method as good as any. Be careful when holding the lap by hand as it's possible it may jam, hold it lightly and expect the unexpected. Remember also that unless the lap is maintained dead parallel with the bore (an almost impossible task) it will tend to bell-mouth the bore a little - hence the reason for making the work a little longer than finished size and trimming to length later. When the inside of the bore has achieved an all-over grey appearance, with the fine scratches appearing even and criss-crossing both ways, and with no evidence of any deeper scratches (as might be left by the reamer) it's time to move onto the next finer grade. The work will have to be removed from the chuck to clean it properly, and this should be done with clean paraffin oil followed by hot soapy water. The same procedure applies to the lap and all traces of the abrasive must be removed. The process continues until you reach the 'flour' grade of abrasive by which time the finish on the workpiece should be very fine indeed. A final polished finish, should this be deemed necessary, can be achieved using metal polish (diluted Autosol, or some liquid chrome cleaner). The lap should be a separate 'finishing' lap so there is no chance of contamination with the coarser grades of abrasive which might be embedded in the main lap. The piston is treated in a similar way except of course the lap is female. Work will continue with the coarse abrasive until (using the un-trimmed bore as a gauge) the piston will not *quite* enter the bore. At this stage finer grade abrasives are used and work continues until the piston will just enter the bore tightly. At this stage, it is usual to finish mating the two parts by using metal polish and briefly using the piston to lap the bore directly. Great care needs be taken but this method ensures that the fit is good for the entire length of the bore.


About fuel,  I had never had problem to use diesel from gas station in model diesel engine. The model diesel engine is not self igniting diesel by heat of compression. Also it is ether who is self ignited by heat of compression and then the main fuel such as diesel, kerosene, lamp oil or Jet-A1 will be ignited by ether in same time. Ether has self ignition about 188 degree celsious/370.4 Fahrenheit while the main fuel has high self ignition about 250 celsius/482  Fahrenheit.


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## Brian Rupnow

If at first you don't succeed---then build a Webster i.c. engine. Just about everybody in the world has built one, they always manage to get them to run, and the plans are a free download off the internet. The Webster is a four cycle engine with valves, and there are about a billion well documented build threads on any forum you go to. I have built both two cycle and four cycle engines, and contrary to what makes sense, four cycle engines with valves and cams and all that tricky stuff are much easier to get running than two cycle engines which are about as simple as it gets.---Brian


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