# My Elbow Engine



## Bogstandard (Jul 26, 2007)

Hi All,
Now that I have been shown how to do it I should be able to show you a few pics of my build.
The flywheel was made from a lump of 1" thick ali plate that had been donated to me a couple of months back, just waiting for a job like this.

















The bearing blocks I made from cast iron, I find it is a much better bearing surface for brass rather than the steel that was on the plan. The cast iron came from old window sash weights, I find I can get about 12" of 11/2" diameter bar from one weight for a cost of 30 pence (about 50 cents US). I decided to use ali plate for the flywheel upright as well so this has a duplicate cast iron bearing bolted to it and upright location dimensions changed slightly.
You have most probably gathered by now that I don't use much full price material, most of mine comes from scrapyards and friends and I throw no raw materials away until it can be of no further use. This engine will cost less than £4 ($8 US) to make, and most of that was to buy the silver steel (drill rod)

John


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## tattoomike68 (Jul 26, 2007)

Thats beautiful , so nice I see it is the forum banner picture.


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## rake60 (Jul 26, 2007)

Now how did that get there? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Beautiful engine, and the work on your version looks perfect!
You have to give us a video when it's finished.

Thanks for the permission to use it as our current logo.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 27, 2007)

Got a lot further today, all assembled and running, will post a vid later.
First pic shows the bits including a few extra that I mentioned last time.
I used 0.005" PTFE sheet for all the gaskets
I also decided to make a front 'spinner', to cover up the mounting screws for the extra bearing, don't think it looks too bad. It only took about half an hour on the lathe and I used a piece of square tool steel as a graver to carve it to shape.
Nothing is really polished up yet, that will come later when I show all my engines at the local steam engine rally in September.





















The engine does need a fair amount of lube, and I think that it mentions on the plans that it throws it about a bit, in fact when finished running the engine is absolutely filthy with oil everywhere, so not one for running in the lounge to show off to friends, unless you keep the speed right down, which is what I will do when it is on display, looks a lot more impressive the slower it runs.

John


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## Bogstandard (Jul 27, 2007)

Tried to embed this vid but it didn't work, so here is the url

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZRKNlY7enM[/ame]

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5ZRKNlY7enM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed>


Now what to make next?

John

Edited to add video- mike


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## lugnut (Jul 27, 2007)

:shock: John that is the most exciting little engine I have ever seen!  I have to find the plans and make an attempt.  
Wish me some luck
Mel


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## Bogstandard (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mel,
Glad you like it, I can't stop turning it over just to see the operation of it, makes me go cross eyed.
The plans are already in the plans section, but here they are again
http://www.john-tom.com/MyPlans/Steam Engines/ElbowEngine.pdf

Just print them out.

John


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## tattoomike68 (Jul 27, 2007)

Thats fantastic, I was telling the guys at my brothers shop about it, I will have to make one too and show them.

As far as a next project I was talking with a friend and he told me I should build a little boiler that runs on barbecue charcoal. Its easy to find and burns hot and long. Something to think about.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for the good comments lads, if there is anything you need to help you with your builds, don't be afraid to ask, there is no such thing as a silly question, just a silly person for not asking.
I had no problems making this engine, just problems getting it to run, I think I made all the tolerances too tight for my own good.
I have seen plans for a five cylinder version but I just can't remember where I saw them. Thats a sure sign of losing your marbles, and I've only got a few left.
But please do remember I have been doing this for over forty years, so what is very easily done by me can be a bit offputting for you new to the art of making miniature engines, if you can't get something to run don't throw it away or lose your temper with it, put it away carefully and come back to it after you have got a little bit more experience, then I can guarantee that you will get it running in no time, you will be able to trace where you went wrong in the first place.
Still can't get the grin off my face seeing this running so well.

John


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## lugnut (Jul 27, 2007)

John, the Little Maching Shop has the plans for the five cylinder one and they want  :shock: $11.00 for them.  Would five cylinder run smooth than a 3 cylinder?  I can bet it would put more years on ya!
Mel


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## tattoomike68 (Jul 27, 2007)

lugnut said:
			
		

> John, the Little Maching Shop has the plans fot he five cylinder one and they want  :shock: $11.00 for them.  Would five cylinder run smooth than a 3 cylinder?  I can bet it would put more years on ya!
> Mel



As cool as 5 cylinders would be I dont think the folks around here would need a print.

Most of the members here are wizzards and the rest are folks picking thier brains.    (im picking brains myself)  :wink:


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## Hal (Jul 27, 2007)

John

How tight did you fit the 90° rods.  And did you build a jig to bend them all the same??

NICE work by the way.  Fun to watch it run.


Hal


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## rake60 (Jul 27, 2007)

John your build of that engine is one of the best bar stock works I've ever
seen, and the video is perfect!  

*EXCELLENT!*


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## wareagle (Jul 27, 2007)

This is a very interesting engine.  The Snow is another, but I think this one takes the cigar.  This is in the list of "someday" builds! 

Thank you for sharing!  Outstanding craftsmanship!


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## Bogstandard (Jul 28, 2007)

Hal, The rods were standard 1/4" silver steel, and the holes were reamed 1/4", so the running fit would be approx.0.0005". But I think that is too tight, as the engine is getting better the more it runs, but if I did another one I would do the same again, without trying to change the fits.
As for the bending, I just machined up a couple of steel bars with a hole reamed in the end of each one (make them about 12" long, I only made mine about 4" and my fingers were burning, had to hold them with wet cloths), heated up the middle bit and bent it something like, do NOT quench them to cool them down, they will go hard as rock and brittle. After that I just 'tweaked' them using the steel bending bars until they were truly square. A word of warning, don't try and force the engine to turn, it will knock the pistons out of square again. I found thru trial and error that the mounting holes in the baseplate on the horizontal bearing should be made a sloppy fit to allow the engine to find its own centres then gently tighten the bolts until it will rotate both ways by gently turning the flywheel. Oil used for running was Diesel multigrade, only because I had a gallon left after my last oil change, but it does have detergents in it and tends to keep the engine a bit cleaner by supending all the dirt in it so that it wipes off easily (in fact I use this oil for everything in my workshop, for at least the last ten years, on the understanding that if it can keep the insides of a filthy running diesel engine going, it will have no trouble doing the same for my machinery).
Would this engine suit a total beginner, No, but if you have a couple of wobblers under your belt then no problems, there are so few parts you can concentrate on getting a good fit on all pieces, just take your time. If I was to build another one I could most probably do it in about a couple of days, now that the learning curve is over.
Rake, I am not doing this for praise, but it is appreciated, I just wanted to share my experiences with like minded people and hopefully get a few beginners started on the way to making their first engine and getting 'hooked'. Manual machining is becoming a dying art, and it is definitely an artform, (I try to change just a little thing on each engine to make it personal just to me), so anything we can do to promote it to be carried on is definitely for the good. All the kids I show my engines to think they have been made in the far east and want to know where to buy one from, they don't believe that beautiful little things like this can be made by people in their homes, sweating away, swearing to themselves, with grimy, cut and gnarled hands, striving to produce a new life from lumps of lifeless metal. Ready to leave behind for the next generations to admire, and hopefully carry on the tradition.
Wareagle, I would just love to make something like the Snow engine, I too think it is a work of great beauty, but something like that is a very long term project, and to put it bluntly, I don't think I would be able to finish a very long term project like that, so I concentrate on engines that I know I can finish to a reasonable standard within a couple of months.
I have rambled on a bit here, but if it has encouraged just one person to go out and do it, that is enough for me.

John


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## Cedge (Jul 28, 2007)

John
While I have not yet built an Elbow Engine, I've had the pleasure of putting one into running shape after a failed attempt by another collector. It's an amazingly elegant design in its simpicity and as mentioned, rather hypnotic when running.  With only 5 moving parts, it's almost mind boggling to realize it's a 6 cylinder machine. 

That little bugger had me muttering to myself and I had it a part and back together dozens of times before finally grokking what the combined malfuntions were. I figured out very quickly that the 90° bends had to be dead spot on, but the darned thing would run 4 or 5 turns and stop. This happened over and over until the process of elimination narrowed it down to one piston set.  The solution was to remove about .020 from one end, preventing it from striking the bearing surface.  Such a simple design, so few parts, but a very dickens to trouble shoot without drawings....LOL

You've done yourself proud with the execution on what has long been one of my favorite designs, and one which is  very quickly coming to the top of my project list.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi Cedge,
I have visited your site many times, and keep going back to see if there is anything new, you are doing a wonderful job of bringing engines back to life and displaying them how they should be, a real credit to yourself.
I took special interest in the Krick marine. I had one of these a few years back, lovely engine, totally no power in it (leaks everywhere) but it was the boiler that really hit me as the bad design. They used a gas burner with a brass boiler. The gas, while running dezinc'd the internal surface of the chimney and after a few months started to leak water thru minute holes on the inside, where it had been 'eaten away' by the gas fumes. Put my finger up the chimney to check where the water was coming from and pushed a hole thru with my finger, so the boiler was duly sent to that place where old boilers go, the trashcan. 
I mentioned in another post about the pistons being overlength after being bent, and about them having to be totally square, in fact because they are difficult to check for squareness because of the round profile, I had a friend double check them for me.
My dog learned a whole bunch of new words that he had never heard before. But isn't that what it is all about, the making is fairly easy (for me at least), getting them to run afterwards and spotting your mistakes is the fun part, and the final elation and cheshire cat grin that you get when it finally comes to life is priceless, at my age better than sex any day. And because I try to do a project every couple of months, I have a permanent grin.

John


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## Cedge (Aug 2, 2007)

John
Thanks for the kind words on my site. I've enjoyed sharing my collection with others and have met some darned intersting people in the process. Saving the engines and putting them back in shape has been a tremendous amount of fun, but you've managed to change my direction a bit. 

I've been on the long learning curve for a couple of years now and I'm feeling fairly confident in my ability to get out of tight corners while avoiding disaster. I fell in lust with the Elbow engine when I did the repairs on the one I mentioned above, but I kept putting it off "until I know what I'm doing".  Your's is the 4th such engine I've seen in action and it's time I got off the pot and put one together.  

I'm doing my own freestyle interpretation to the basic Elbow. It's already coaxed a bit of bronze from much the horded stock, so I guess it's "in for a penny in for a pound....(grin). I began the project last night and I'm blaming you for the anticipated loss of sleep...LOL.  Wish me luck.

Steve


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## tattoomike68 (Aug 2, 2007)

I see you have a page on the lewiston Idaho high school. I used to work in Lapwai, Idaho where many of the guys there went to Lewiston high school and took the machine shop class. The guys all loved that class.

At my brothers shop there is one of the engines that they bought from a hobbie store in lewiston, one like this one.






http://www.cedesign.net/steam/lewiston.htm

There needs to be more high schools with a class like they have at Lewiston.


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## Cedge (Aug 3, 2007)

Mike
I had the pleasure of speaking with the teacher of their shop class. Not only should more schools have classes like his, they should all have infectiously enthusiastic instructors like him. Sadly, I've long forgotten his name, but not his positive attitude.  Lewiston High School breaks the shop class stereotype of "only dorks, dweeps and low apptitude types take metal shop".  He obviously attracts many of the brightest students and its not hard to see why.

I watch with concern as so many school districts, nationwide are dropping, vocational training from their budgets.  If you aren't college bound, they offer very little to help you get a solid footing. It's showing its effect in a lack of domestically trained skilled tradesmen and a lack of self sufficiency among those of this and the coming generation. Honorable skilled labor is now pretty much the domain of  our immigrant population.  We're poorer for it, I'm afraid.

Steve


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## gilessim (Aug 4, 2007)

Having noticed John saying that the elbow engine chucks oil all over the place, I wondered about using teflon or graphite "cylinder liners" with a flange on the bottom to keep them in place?.Also can anyone tell me what advantage bronze has over brass for the cylinders? apart from it being harder, as I have a chunk of 30mm bar that I've never tried turning. One more thing, what about free turning stainless for the bases-bearing surfaces? as I don't have any cast iron..Giles


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## Bogstandard (Aug 4, 2007)

Hi Steve, 
Don't blame me for your loss of sleep, you're the one who's making it, I had enough sleep loss when I made mine.
I too put my own stamp on mine, I profiled the front standard and put a 'spinner' on it to make it look a bit more menacing.

Giles,
I only used cast iron for the bearing because I used brass instead of bronze for the cylinders. The plan I think calls for mild steel for the bearing block and bronze for the cylinders. So your bronze bar will be ideal. Be carefull when machining your bronze, if your tools aren't sharp enough and it 'rubs' instead of cutting, it will form a tough skin that is terrible to cut thru. Drilling is the usual time it happens, let the pressure off a bit and let it skid and you will find you won't be able to drill any more.
For turning I always use a razor sharp HSS cutter. There are of course many types of bronzes, I'm just starting to use a lot of aluminium bronze which if I try to cut with tipped tools just skids, but use sharp HSS and it cuts like butter.
By the way, you will not be able to stop the oil from going everywhere, it comes from the bearing faces on the piston blocks, if you try to seal them any better to stop the oil, the engine just locks up, it needs a running clearance. Mine is about 0.001" to 0.002", if you can get it any better than that, best of luck.

John


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## 1Kenny (Aug 4, 2007)

One thing I have noticed between the yellow brass and the more reddish bronze is how they differ it cuts. The yellow seems to have finer little chipps where as the more reddish will curle into long strings.


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## Bogstandard (Aug 4, 2007)

Steve,
I noticed further up the page about you talking about loss of vocational training.
It seems now that everything we buy will be made in the far east, mainly because we don't have apprenticeships in the UK any more (for about the last 10 to 15 years) so no one is being taught the ways to make or repair things. I don't know whether it is the same in the US, but at one time a person was recognised for his skills and abilities and got the respect that that commanded. 
Nowadays a person is judged by how much money they have (usually got by working the lowest paid to an early grave) not by their abilities, and we are becoming a country of money pushers and grabbers, rather than one of the world leaders in engineering design and production, as we used to be.
A very sorry state indeed, and it is getting worse, because all the people who have the skills are getting older with no one to replace them as they retire or snuff it.
Thank God I won't be around when they fly a service engineer half way around the world to change the lightbulb in a billionaires bedside table lamp.
You think I am joking, I used to work for an American company in the UK and had to drive 120 miles round trip to a trade fair to show the boss how to put on an english electrical socket plug. It was beneath him to ask for help from the people in the trade stands around him (1. He had lots of money & 2. He came from NY and had the worst attitude I have ever seen in a fellow human being).

John


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## Ralph (Aug 8, 2007)

Well John, you certainly encouraged me to give it a try. Heres my results after about three days of trial and error. Will it ever run ? Dont know, but am having a great time learning. Thanks for all the tips and tricks. Still plugging along.

[/img]


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## tattoomike68 (Aug 8, 2007)

Nice. I cant wait to try one for myself


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## rake60 (Aug 8, 2007)

It's a simple engine to make parts for.
Here's mine.




It doesn't work!   :? 
Now it's time to go back and check all the parts  for square and parallel.
One of the guys at work made the statement "You are bull-headed and
anal enough to get it to run"  
Was that a compliment??????


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## lugnut (Aug 9, 2007)

In the little spare time I had today I started laying out the stuff to make the "little elbow engine".  Now when you guys say "It won't work" bothers me.  But I won't let that stop me from trying.
I have never seen a project that has got me so fired up about building something as this silly (maybe not so silly) engine.
My neighbor is a Hot Rodder and when I told him I was going to build a six-cylinder engine with only five moving parts, well he still looks over the fence and shakes his head.  Im not going to tell him how it works until I get mine running
Wish me luck
Mel


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## lugnut (Aug 9, 2007)

Ken, does it turn freely?  Is there a timing problem? Can there be a timing issue?  I need to know all the pit falls.  Let us know what you do to make it run.
Mel


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## Bogstandard (Aug 9, 2007)

Hey lads,
Thats great, really started something here.
Just keep trying to get them to run, the satisfaction is amazing.
Tips for getting to run.

Don't worry about the timing, if you have made to drawing, the timing is right, so you can ignore that.
The verticals should be checked for squareness.
The cylinder blocks need to rotate with very little or no up and down and side to side movement.
Make sure the pistons are not too long and are totally square. For length use the drawing measurement and take off about an extra 0.020" for running clearance.
Make the mounting holes for the bottom bearing very slightly adjustable (open them out a bit). 
Plenty of lube and GENTLY try to turn engine by turning both the bottom block and flywheel at the same time, don't force it, you will knock the pistons out of square. Slacken off the bottom bearing mounting and see if it will then turn. If it does get it to a turning point and very gently tighten up, if it tightens up again just nip the bolts and tap with a plastic screwdriver handle to get it to a turning point, 1 or 2 thou  the wrong way is all it needs to lock up. Just go very steady.
Mine took 3 days to get running, so don't despair, put it away for a bit, make another bit for another engine then come back and try again.

John


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## Cedge (Aug 9, 2007)

The other place where binding can sneak into the system is the flywheel support coumn. There is just enough play in the peice to allow a bit of shifting about. The trick is to move it around a little and see if the friction level is decreased. The other place it's easy to run afoul is if a piston end is a little long. This will cause binding in both cylinders and dead stop the motor.  It's mostly a "feel" adjustment.

The one that I repaired had me ready for a stiff drink more than once, until I spotted the over length end on just one of the 3 piston sets. Like John said... removed about .020 and she was off to the races.

Steve


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## Ralph (Aug 10, 2007)

Well after many mis-steps and broken drill bits and taps and bolts, were making some progress. All I have left is the pistons, and the tweaking. This thing is just too much fun.






[/img]


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## Bogstandard (Aug 11, 2007)

I can see another build coming on here, but slightly different.
Just to see if it was a fluke that I got mine running.

John


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## 1Kenny (Aug 11, 2007)

This is an interesting engine. The only thing I don't have is the drill rod. 

Ralph,

Your engine is coming along real nice. It is a joy to watch it being made.

John,

Wich surface did you use as your datum line?

Also,

Square seems to be the majic word on this engine. Would it be in order to true a surface finish on the base plate before starting to make the other parts?

Kenny


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## Bogstandard (Aug 11, 2007)

Hi Kenny, 
The datum face has to be the top face of the baseplate. The upright has to be totally square to this. If everything else is made square and parallel no major problems should appear.
Before profiling the tapered sides to the upright, if you can't get it square on the miller, mount it into your four jaw chuck and face the end in the lathe, it's almost guaranteed to be square then. Then use that square face as a second datum to get your upright dimensions.

Ralph,
Looking good, the best part is yet to come.


John


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## Cedge (Aug 11, 2007)

It appears my elbow engine project is to be delayed, at least until the heat index here falls back under triple digits. I suppose this will give me time to model the modifcations out to true scale, but I'd really rather be out in the shop turning a bit of metal into chips

I lost about 8 pounds just standing in front of the lathe earlier this week. I'm looking darned svelt and trim, if a bit soggy....(grin). Hopefully I'll be back at it this week, if I can get the saline I.V. bottle installed so I can stay hydrated.

106° F (41°C) at +96% humidity will separate the men from the boys and old men from all polite company. 

Steve


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## tattoomike68 (Aug 12, 2007)

Cedge said:
			
		

> 106° F (41°C) at +96% humidity will separate the men from the boys and old men from all polite company.
> 
> Steve



I know how that feels when spray arcing 1.5" plate or changing weights and jackets in a foundry.

Drink lots of water, eat a_ little_ salty chips so you have salt and take breaks in a cool place. the heat run me out of my shop for a while but thank goodness it passed.


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## Ralph (Aug 13, 2007)

Well its all together and turning freely. Had to use a little shimming to get the upright square, but that can be squared away after it runs. It cant be said enough, this thing has to be parallel and square. Only a few adjustments left to make and we should be off to the races. Hope the patience keeps pace with the frustration. 






[/img]


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## Bogstandard (Aug 14, 2007)

Well done Ralph, looking good.
Hopefully you will have the success grin very soon.

John


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## Ralph (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks for the words of encouragement John. Without seeing your build first I dont think I would have tried this one. You made it all very easy to understand. You should have been a teacher. Just goes to show, even a rookie with no experience can accomplish good things with some guidance. I'm sure the "grin of success" will be here soon enough. 

                            Thanks
                               Ralph


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## Bogstandard (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi Ralph,
It's very nice to be referred to as a teacher, because since I erected my new workshop a few years back, it is an open house to people requiring help in making parts on their lathe and miller. Mainly in the evening and weekend and also geared towards making fixtures and fittings for model boats.
Starting in the near future is a friend who is a builder and landscape gardener, who is building a chopper, and wants to be shown how to make all the glittery bits out of stainless and aluminium. The first job is a pair of top yokes for the forks, then somehow we have to get the rigid frame on to the miller to have the rear end machined. The plus side is that he is going to landscape my front garden for free. A fair exchange is no robbery.
By the way, I notice you are maybe using 3 in 1 oil for lubrication on your engine. I think you will be better on this engine if possible to use a little bit of multigrade, 3 in 1 and WD40 are both lubricants but do have a lot of cleaning agents in them and are really designed to get things moving rather than continuous running, door hinges have slightly different lubrication requirements than these little engines we make.


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## rake60 (Aug 14, 2007)

Well I finally got mine to the point that I thought I should try putting the
pressure to it.  It runs, but not well.

<embed src="http://www.rake60.com/photogallery/Elbow_First_Run.mpeg" autoplay="false" hidden="false" loop="false" type="application/mediaplayer" wmode="transparent" width="350" heigth="425"></embed>

or http://www.rake60.com/photogallery/Elbow_First_Run.mpeg

Still some fine tuning to do yet, but I am happy to see that it will try! 
Can't do much more with it tonight.  It's 10:30PM.  If the halogen light in
the driveway to take the video didn't disturb the neighbors the 
compressor kicking on surely would.    

Rick


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## Bogstandard (Aug 15, 2007)

Well done, always knew you would succeed.
I fine, fine, fine tuned with a plastic handled screwdriver, just tapping with the plastic end with the bolts only just nipped, all of a sudden it went off like a banshee.
It's coveralls on now, oil will fly.

John


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## lugnut (Aug 15, 2007)

That is neat Rick.  I'll bet that you was happy with your results.  I was a little surprised at how much noise it makes.  I just started lining up one of the Cylinder pieces for mine in the RT for drilling.  Never used a RT before so I'm a little slow.  I post some photos when I made a little more progress.  Havent made the pistons as yet.  
Mel


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## Bogstandard (Aug 21, 2007)

Here is another tip on making this engine, it might help a few of you to get them running.
On the plans it shows no pictures of the bolts that the cylinders rotate around. These are most probably the most critical parts on the engine because if these aren't perfectly upright or the correct length you will have air leaking from everywhere and the engine just won't run correctly.
If you look at the part built engine in my posts it shows the bolt heads not yet finished and a bit further on you will see the bolts in the picture with all the bits ready for assembly. These are stepped and shoulder bolts, designed to be perfectly upright and when tightened they allow easy modification to allow nice close fits.
The attached sketch should explain it all.







This type of bolt can be used anywhere where a part needs to rotate around the bolt.
Please excuse the quality of the sketch, my right arm doesn't work right most of the time.

John


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