# need help with steam engine choices



## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 10, 2018)

hello, i am a newbee, i have a question perhaps someone could answer. I wish to build a Vertical Double Steam Engine with reverse gear. i have looked on the internet at at various plans offered for free down loading but non fit the bill, i cannot cast were we are living nore am i interested at this time. if i must cast then these would have to be custom made ,but from whom, i do not know. what i am looking for is a set of plans for a double vertical marine engine with drawings for reverse  gear. i wish a cylinder bore of 1 inch not 3/4the vessel is 8 ft. long, the stuart double ten as an example is too small according to articals i have read. i am looking for one that does not require castings. 

if not, can i increase the size of the vertical Jepson engine plans to a 1 1/4 bore, this engine is not a double its a single this the reason for a 1 1/4 inch bore asopposed to a 1 inch bore. i have another set of free plans also for a bigger engine the plan for this engine are exellent its a unit with a Lp cylinder and Hp cylinder but it requires castings or can i not use castings and instead mill solid material. this engine plan comes with no reverse gear drawings either which is a problem. also i cannot find any good books on amazon nor ebay on how to build a steam engine sadly, what is available is not according to people whom bought some of the few books available, not very helpfull. any help on the above would be appreciated very much. i have a mill and lathe but still must purchase some tooling. i wish to indicate how happy i was in ordering for the little machine shop, they are very good highly recommended.

thank you kindly
dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 10, 2018)

Stuart twin launch would do as that is a twin 1" bore vertical and has reversing gear. You could just buy the drawings from Stuart and fabricate / cut from solid.

How much machining experience do you have and what machines are available.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 11, 2018)

Hello Jason , Thanks for your imput, you say buy the drawings from Stuart, ok. I have several plans, i really don't want to buy plans from Stuart, i have one plan for a large steam engine but it has no reverse gear indicated its 8 inches long 7 inches in height, bore of the hp cylinder is 1 1/4 i think and the low pressure cylinder is smaller. i have another plan for a unit no castings required with a 3/4 bore but its limited to a five ft model.
regarding stuart i will consider it, i did not know they sold the plan for the engine. where would that plan be located on there website? No i have never used a Metal Lathe nor milling machine but have both one is on the way. Lathe Standard 7×14 100 mm three jaw chuck type. i am a model ship builder i can read plans but drawings for engines are a little different. I need to have understanding on how to covert the drawings to the production of the finished parts. i have a question why bother making a mould that is in wood the exact same dimentions as the part to be fabricated, for a cast when you can simply mill the part once in the selected material for the part? 
i have been looking for books on understanding drawings and also books on how exactly to build a engine and exactly how the lathe is used in doing so, and all the spacific tooling required to build an engine and how each tool is applied. but i cannot find a book or books. i want to build a steam on the first go, its just learning to connect all the pieces together in order to acheive that goal. question can lead steel be used for the cylinder, or how about brass , i don't want to use aluminum one scratch on this metal and you must start over.
i am hope full it will turn out just fine. tell me how much are the stuart plans would you happen to know? look forward to your response, thanks very much. dan.


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## minh-thanh (Nov 11, 2018)

Hi D&J Fitzgerald !



D&J Fitzgerald said:


> hello, i am a newbee, i have a question perhaps someone could answer. I wish to build a Vertical Double Steam Engine with reverse gear. i have looked on the internet at at various plans offered for free down loading but non fit the bill, i cannot cast were we are living nore am i interested at this time. if i must cast then these would have to be custom made ,but from whom, i do not know. what i am looking for is a set of plans for a double vertical marine engine with drawings for reverse  gear. i wish a cylinder bore of 1 inch not 3/4the vessel is 8 ft. long, the stuart double ten as an example is too small according to articals i have read._ i am looking for one that does not require castings_.



I also look for plans that does not require castings, but there is not
Maybe I will based on free plans, modify .... with separate sections and combine them together


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## Jasonb (Nov 12, 2018)

Stuart list the drawings in the "spares" part of their site, bottom of list

https://www.stuartmodels.com/products/spare-parts/compound-launch

Having said that with your total lack of model engineering ability I would suggest you choose a barstock design to start with and even then something smaller to practice on before your launch engine would be a good idea. Ray Hasbrook's book has plans and build descriptions for about 12 engines several of which will power a launch of teh size you are thinking of or the larger ones could be scaled down a bit, #5 and #8 would be likely candidates or two of the singles could be built onto the same base to give a twin.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0941653447/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you have  a Google for "Ray Hasbrook Engines" you should get plenty of results and maybe even find a build thread or two.

A solid piece of cast iron bar would be a good choice for your cylinder or bronze if being silver soldered together from several parts.

A Couple more drawing sets that will give you an idea of whats involved with a 2 cylinder marine engine, both these would suit, maybe scale the second down a bit, if you prefer imperial sizes then allow 1mm =1/32" which will bring it down from 38mm ( 1.5") bore to 1 3/16"

http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.c...ical-twin-compound-bob-middleton-09-03-10.pdf

http://www.vapeuretmodelesavapeur.com/telechargements4/bicyl-marin.-vertical.pdf


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 13, 2018)

hello , i thank all of you for your input,i will most certainly look ray up. I do plan on learning via some smaller projects, i will start by making some aluminum grooved pullys, i plan on also building a miniature search light out of brass or copper, drilling some precision holes, using messure instrments also some engineers scale rules, dial indicator, and vernier calibor which is in my order that i am still waiting for. i did find a cylinder steam engine drawing but the cylinder head diameter is not indicated. that really does not matter since castings are required. i checked out the Stuart Big Twin , plans thats perhaps the engine i will build but i will as your advice indicated , build something simple first before i tackle something larger, learning first is a must. i will ask again, this question, can i use Lead Steal for the Cylinder head, a machinist who's artical i read said that lead steel could be used and then heated to harden the block after the initial boring work is completed. another question i have is this, does the steamchest need to be milled as part of the cylinder head or can it be milled seperately and added to the cylinder head?  Also regarding a boiler, i wish to build my own boiler as opposed to buying one, i thought a vertical one would take up less space, i was thinking of one that produces a 120 psi max. pressure and understand that any boiler whom's operating pressure is over 50 psi will require brazing as opposed to soft souldering, is this correct?
i have seen some plans for  boilers already i prefer a Vertical boiler, please tell me what you think? were i lack, is in understanding the numbers on the blue prints and how i drill and tap holes in given locations and centering the holes in the exact locations indicated in the plans, i need to figure that out as well.  another question i have is can buy to sets of castings for a stuart no'7 build them and somehow connect the crankshafts together at the crank ends if i set the crank shafts to oppose the firing order would that also not work, the problem i do see in such a scheme is that while i could revers the front engine the rear would not reverse in order to reverse both the shift into reverse direction must be timed perfectly so both shift at exactly the same moment,well i must go.thank you all.
Dan.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 13, 2018)

hello again out there, i have looked at Rays book and some video's on some of his engines. there are apparently 12 sets of plans for his different engines, question, in one video i saw a small one 12 inches in height , are some of the vertical designs small units for a 7 foot tug? or must i scale one of the 12 down, are all his plans for real boats?
please reply.
thank you Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 14, 2018)

You would be better off using Cast Iron or Bronze bar to machine your cylinder from.

Yes silver braze the copper boiler

Steam chest can be done either way, separate makes it a bit easier to get at the port face to get it flat and machine the ports.

With the No7 pair you would be better off making a single crankshaft, the reverse lever usually has a bar that allows it to control the reversing linkages at both ends of the engine from one place on a twin or triple.

Rays book has small engines as well as ones that will do upto a 20ft hull, you could make one of  the small engines as a practice piece then the larger. Big ones will be fine in a real launch


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 14, 2018)

Hello out-there,Thanks very kindly. i located the Book on Rays engines and will buy one for christmas i am sure my wife won't mind. i had a issue with my lathe chuck sticking, but found the corresponding numbers ,1,2,3 on the inside of the chuck i had the chuck claws in wrong, this happened because i could not find the numbers on the chuck it self, i have fixed the problem. i have a14×7 lathe and a small milling machine its a Seige clone. i have not run it yet, i have tested it it works fine , i ordered some aluminum round and brass round to make some simple precision parts as I already noted. Regarding Stuart that double with a one inch bore is a real nice piece, i will conider it. I looked at rays engines on Video, i commend Ray on his designs and those that have built them, fine work,i hope my first effort turns close to as perfect as theirs. In one video i think its a number 5 or was it a 3, it was 12 inches tall a single,i saw it run on yutube at 1 psi and i think thats the engine for my giant tugboat. i should before jumping headfirst into a Stuart Double, build one of Rays first. I could also build the crank shaft in three parts, the Chinese have built successfully big diesel engine's with crankshafts were the Journals actually can be dismantled individualy, for individual replacement , these engines run at 2000 rpm max. i may there fore not mill a solid crankshaft but rather mill it in three pieces then press fit all three then check for true, please tell me your thoughts on this?

For those of you whom are model ship builders,i have ordered a set of plans for a Steam Winch, this also will be used as a training build for me, before i attempt a steam engine.

i had asked about lead steal for the steam engines cylinder case hardened via heat before or after the boring,i thought after but then realized that, heat after the bore may alter the bore it self due to expantion. i guess lead steal is not recommended? it is apparently easy to mill but cannot be welded or brazed.
question, does rays plans come with reversing gear plans? 
I also need a 4 and 1/2 inch Dia three blad prop, i saw some for sale but i am going to build my own prop, another test for training myself on precision messurements . i waslooking at four Jaw Chucks as well, this is recommended for precision work by a home machinist in the UK whom has a Myford Metal Lathe he has an artical on google, i thank him for presenting the the required tools to build model engines , in particular. i bought a book on lathes for the home machinist but i bought the wrong one, as it is for machinists that already have the basic understanding,i require a complete beginners book you" no like the old Dos for Dummies! i have learned many things because of the kindness of other home machinists whom took the time to share what theyknow, i thank all of you very kindly.

regarding rays engines, i would like to see if he has a small single with a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 bore a single of this size it all i need for my 7 ft tug. thank you for the info on the Stuart no"7 also still in the consideration phase. i will start by buying a absolute beginners book on metal lathes, and will buy Rays book as well.
thank you very kindly all of you please send me photos of your engines i would love to see all of them.
Dan.


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## packrat (Nov 14, 2018)

A full size steam engine and a Stuart 5A


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 17, 2018)

Hello again, Thanks for the Photo's.  Stuart 5A both engines look real. i have a question or two, i cannot find Ray Hasbrooks descriptions of all the engines indicated in his book, unless i buy a copy, which i am going to do. My question is, in the book, is there a set of plans for a small double Vertical say with 1 to 1 1/4 bore, or a single with a single with a 1 1/4 bore that would fit my 7 ft. tugboat? could someone please answer this question thanks. i ordered a few sets of plans as beginner projects on my Lathe, the first a scale steam ships winch, the second, a hobbyist table saw, third a set of plans for a model outboard lower unit, designed for a 049  . the table saw is for a 4 to 5 inch blade, i need this to cut flat brass and other metals, all the componets for the saws drive system are contained in the drawings, made of metal rounds. the mini outboard lower unit i wish to perhaps produce say five of them, keep one sell the rest, the steam winch, again build five keep one, sell the rest, i might make five table saws, keep one sell the rest, i will use the profits for more tooling for my lathe and mill, i wish to someday buy a bigger lathe say one that is 8 by 20 or something like that!

Some information now on my.monitoring Drill Press Conversions to milling machines an interesting subject for those interested. ok i know some will Mock the very suggestion, but i have watched a few( what i refered to as a poor mans milling machine) the question i had was, can it actually be done? well yes and no is the answer, one fellow tried a year ago or so and failed completely, but the reason is that he did not have a Lathe to build the modification parts required. Vertical drilling with a Drill Press is fairly accurate, but any sideways loads and the drillpress Quil goes out of alignment, i have watched several people try with only two success stories reported recently. one of these, the fellew that successfully modified one, made some changes to his drill press, he indicated that a standard drill press quil bearing cannot take side loads and has alot of run-out when attempted, so he removed the quil and removed the bearing he then enlarged the hole the bearing sits in and he installed a wider bearing, the problem was that the clearence between the bearing and quil was not close enough in tollerence he ended up with a run out of 000.5 according to his dial indicator once the modification was completed. he also installed a threaded bolt to lock the unit and also added a worm gear with dial wheel, he seemed quite pleased with the results that is all i know for now. i will not comment on these conversions, accept to say that a milling machine is very expensive, and the cost for one has never come down here on ebay the cheapest is 1000.00$ .

i was looking a stuarts websight at the No7 yes two of these would be wonderfull, but unless i win the lottery, i will stick with the Ray Hasbrook option, the 7's are 245.00$ pounds Stirling which is about 400.00'$ Canadian plus taxes, duty and postal costs for each units castings. now finally some bad news, i found out that the manufacture of my lathe did NOT bolt the motor in place, its sitting in its small cavity loosely,i have decided that i am going to tear the lathe apart and rebuild or clean the entire thing up, i could send it back but thats more trouble then its worth, and as small as it is 7×14 its so heavy i can hardly lift it, mine has a 100 mm. three jaw chuck and 100mm centre height, its a nice lathe. i do not like the two plastic wheels one of which is on the tail stock , i also do not like the metal bracket holding the tailstock on the bed with a rediculious nut and bolt alignment method,also mine came with no wrench at all to remove the Chuck the instructions with the unit were simply garbage consisting of very little information and the parts schemetic required a magnifine glass to even read it, but when i finally went out and bought a magnifine glass i found out that the motor in the unit was not the motor indicated in the drawings of the parts schemetic that is on page 8 of the manual. mind you i only paid 500.00$ for the lathe apparently a new one. I could have bought the real mini lathe from china that has a 60 watt motor centre distance of 100 mm. but that will not build u a model engine. the lathes bed is very accurate, mine has all the features of the bigger lathes and a 550 watt motor of which does appear to be very heavy built, it has a small toothed belt their are some very plastic gears and spares that came with it, i think i will eventually convert it to metal gears and also a independant four jaw chuck is coming as well. 
i still have Not received my tooling package i ordered from the little machine shop, but hopefully next week or the week after. 

 Regarding the mini outboard plans, These plans as far as i know are the only ones in existance, and this unit has solid bevel gears in the lower gear case, i guess i could make bevel gears for it via what is known as gear hobbing. or buy them they are in-exspensive. I am saddened that single cylinder diesel engines are no longer manufactured. i have noted a few modelers attenpts to build real diesel engine minatures, interesting? well must go, one other question i have is it true that a three jaw chuck is not as accurate as a four jaw. Thanks again for the two photo's some photos of Ray Hasbrooks engines would accepted as well.
Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 17, 2018)

http://www.livesteam.net/into-steam-need-a-project-pass-along-email-8-13/

gives the contents

This is a barstock one I designed, couple of similar engines side by sid eon a common base "casting" would do you. 24mm bore. I have got rid of the knock now


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 17, 2018)

Hello Jason, thanks for writing, and sending the photograph, real nice single, you indicated  that you took care of the engines Knock, please tell, what caused knock? nice base casting, i cannot make a casting were were we are residing thats is impossible, i have the ability to make wooden plugs with my wood lathe which i also have in my collection of tooling, but i cannot cast with a furnace here that is the problem. you say the engines bore is 24mm. but the engine you show, running is that the engine you built that has the 24mm bore i only ask because it seems smaller in the video?  that engine would work for my tugboat if it had a 24 mm. bore with a added reversing gear and lever, but again for me ,i cannot cast the base, maybe i could make the mould and a outside sourse for a casting  of the base and cylinder. i need to know, what tools do i need to transfer the dimmentions from the plans to the metal and accurately align the lathe and tooling to do the milling work? is there a book help with this or do i need several books, one on lathe mill operations and usage, another on understanding how to take dimentions off of the plans and accurately transfer those dimentions onto the metal with pin point accuracy. please share with me what you know, if your willing? I have some good plans down loaded into my phone, but practically all of them require Castings and some of the plans do not give some dimentions of the cylinder for creating an accurate wooden plug. the best of the bunch is two plans of the same engine this one is big 8 inches long 7 inches high with hp and lp cylinders of about a under two inch bore its a real nice engine the details in the drawings are the best i have found yet, i could avoid the castings and use bar stock if i so chose to do so including the base, my problem here first is that i found that this engine has no reverse gear indicated, but i will recheck that to make sure, second i can read the plans as i have built model ships for 35 years and have a complete understanding of ship blue prints, but in the case of working model engine plans i do not know how to take the messurements from the plans and apply them to the metal with accuracy, this is where i am a little lost, i will learn but need some help with the right books on topics such as how too use a lathe and mill set up and how to use messurement tools and a list of what exact tools are required and how to operate these machines successfully in the building of engines.

question for you Jason may i ask you how many hrs it took you from start to finish the engine in the video. look forward to hearing from you, and thats a real nice piece of work, thanks for sharing.
Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 18, 2018)

I did put the word casting in inverted commas, there are no castings used for that engine all fabricated or cut from solid. For the base I started with 4 bits of aluminium





After a bit of milling it starts to look more like a casting






Engine is just under 7" tall, about a month to 6 weeks work weekends and the odd evening






This is the naked engine where it is easier to see the materials used



The knock was just a loose pin in the cross head.

You are probably better off watching some you tube videos and reading some good build threads to see what is needed to make an engine and how to use your machines. I have not written that one up yet but this is the build of a horizontal engine that will give some idea of how I do a simple engine.  http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5820.0.html


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 18, 2018)

Hi" Jason got your information ,hey thanks. i have a plan for single similar to yours, it indicates that the standard must be casted, the Vertical Single is basicaly the same as the Stuart no"7 with the same standard and the base plate is the same as yours in design. the Standard has two drawings ,each representing one side and legs. i would much rather mill both the base plate and standard which is what iam going to do. the design i have has a 1 1/4 inch bore . The plan comes with a reversing mech; as well. the builder indicates the design is a Heavy Duty one. There is a builder from the UK on Google who has an artical on all the tooling required, he states that a lathe and drill press are all that is needed. and a number of chuck tools are also indicated and messuring tools. i will use my milling attachment on the lathe and face plate to accomodate the milling process, my milling machine. I will build the single i have desided, but your right some simpler projects must me build first for experience. tell me what kind of lathe do you have, and do you a attachment for a milling machine and centre plate or do you have a seperate milling machine. Do you use a four jaw chuck or three jaw for building steam engines, if four, is it a independant chuck. what other metals can i use for the engine outside of aluminum if iam not sandcasting. i mentioned lead steel, or mild steel ,gun metal....? please tell me, what other engines have you built? as well.

which book do you think would of help to me in building my first Vertical single steam engine, do you have any recommendations? i have seen a few books on both ebay and amazon, there is a TubalCain book, and a few others. i am going to buy the ray hasbrook book for sure for christmas. and another book on metal lathes for beginner ( a dos for dummys) like me. I am not in any rush, also i plan on making my own 4 1/2 inch three blade prop out of brass plate as well. my Biggy tugboat is 3/4 quarters planked, i am working on that too. sorry i have no photos that i can send you. Tonight i will go into google and copy all the tooling i need for model engine building listed. by this builder in the UK.

another question i have is why did you choose aluminum for the base plate? i better go now listen thanks very much for all the information.
Regards
Dan.


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## Cymro77 (Nov 18, 2018)

Dan,
If you will PM me with your email address so that I can contact you - I have two books by Stan Bray I can send you.  One is Marine Steam Engines for Model Boats.  The other is on the construction of model steam engines and boilers.  Both are excellent and can be used as a starting point.  His designs and explanations are excellent in Metric and US measure and could be scaled as needed.
DW


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 18, 2018)

Hi there i just received your message and thank you very much that would be great please let tell me Mr. DW when you have time the kinds of steam engines you have built. and thanks very much for your help.

my email address is [email protected]
regards the apprentice


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 20, 2018)

Dear DW. I received your email, did you receive mine? You indicated that my building a eight ft. tug was hard to fathom, i had the plans enlarged by the Office Depot, originally i wanted it to be enlarged to Ten feet, as i wanted to put in a five hp briggs and Stratton engine in it modified for marine applications but i did not since the weight and transport to the water would have been difficult. so i opted for a 2 ft smaller version. right now the tugs hull is almost finished withbit first planking i am going to Double plank it, no fiberglassing will be resorted too at all. i was debating a steam engine for it, its certainly big enough, but i wanted a steam engine that would push the tug to seven knots with 1/3 in reserve , and power enough so that it could tow anything with out resistance i also decided on a Vertical Boiler. but now need the right engine either a big heavy duty single steam engine with reverse gear or a big double running a max of 120 psi. also i wanted to build a steam engine i could sell and would build four at a time, further i bought a set of plans for a steam winch and a mini outboard motor leg and i bought another set of plans for a home built small table saw. i have a vertical nine inch bandsaw already but do not know were to find metal cutting blades for it.
i want to and will marketing a line of scale Search Lights exact replacas of real ships search lights of yesteryear milled from solid brass and sell these as well , to off set the costs of tooling for my lathe and other stuff, i want a bigger better lathe at some point a 20 by 8 or 9. i have indeed the skill to produce both steam and ic engines my problem as stated is simply learning to use the lathe and mill and how to messure off the plans which most are two dimentional . I prefer steam engines over gas engines, the Stuart Sirus really interested me, but has no reversing capability. but the steam engine i love the most is the vertical twin or big single like the Stuart 7 or the next  one up. castings are no real problem its the two dimentional parts on the plans for the Standard that are throwing me off, i have a 36 inch wood lathe that is very capable of producing the molds and quite quickly i might add but, i cannot produce castings here as i cannot run a furnace here. making Rays designs thus far my best bet. i also have a set of plans for  Fairmile B also enlarged to 120 inches why big, simple they are easy to build. I thank all whom have given me advice and i have seen some real engineers here and there great work they have done and i am proud to be part of this forum.
Dan.
​
​


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## Cogsy (Nov 20, 2018)

D&J Fitzgerald said:


> i have indeed the skill to produce both steam and ic engines my problem as stated is simply learning to use the lathe and mill and how to messure off the plans which most are two dimentional .



This statement is somewhat contradictory. You need to learn the skills of mill and lathe use (as well as plan reading) to be able to build these engines. It can be quite a bit more difficult than it seems. Starting with a casting is an even bigger challenge, though it may seem to be easier at first glance. I recommend you start with the tried-and-true method of a simple oscillating engine and build up your skills from there.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 20, 2018)

hello, thank you for your sound advice, generally speaking, your advice would  be correct, I actually do plan on some lessor projects but not engines, but the same rules do apply. i have found a way to practice using a plan with out risking a error that could cost me a new engine,i do not have a issue with understanding dimentions there is way to take the dimentions off the plans and build a accurate prototype, the secret methods homemachinests have obviously learned. i do accept a trial and error approach to this problem with out the cost of ruining parts of a new engine. so i will make instead make wooden molds and use these at a loss until i have contructed my vertical steam engines casting molds, most of the plan i understand with some confusion simply on the standard, it has two legs and four sides two of which include the legs. i beleive that the standard must be molded into two parts or a whole part, made slightly larger as the plans indicate the finished sized, 3 /32nd extra for machining seems reasonable, so my first build will be a single cylinder vertical with reverse gear. molds by the way are a easy build, molding and casting is to me easyest. my problem is that i cannot run a furnace here. I will use a Drill Press and milling attachment with face plate, you do NOT require a milling machine for a steam engine build. Now unlike in past more and more people are able to and have developed ways to convert a drill press to s milling machine, the problem initially for the conversion was that the quill in a drill press could not successfully cut horizontally, the quill moved from side to side to the degree that accurate milling could not be acheived. Then enough people decided to figure out why and created a solution, and two people were successfull, but you need a lathe for the attempted conversion to mill the parts for the conversion. one issue that was found was that the bearing in the standard press was not high enough to take the side loads and arbour was not tight enough this caused the mill to go out on side load cuts way out, you place a stop bolt into the press to keep the quill from falling out. its a bit of work but any successfull machinest whom can  build a engine should be able to covert a drill press into a milling machine. Milling machines do not seem to decrease in cost per unit, they are way over priced. the smallest one on ebay is 1000.00$ or more plus 500.00 or less for shipping, hardly worth it. i will attempt the conversion. regarding your advice my understanding is that a steam engine is not hard to build its the set up on the lathe that requires the most time. i have been building model ships off plans for thirty five years this helps me to understand.
thank u.
Daniel.


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## Peter_A_Lawrence (Nov 21, 2018)

Dan,  get a copy of Kozo Hiraoka's "The Pennsylvania A3 Switcher", the subtitle of the book is "The first project for the beginner" which is very apt. I have a collection of similar books, and without a doubt Kozo's is the very best. There's more to learn in this hobby than you can ever get from the interweb. Even if you never build this loco the book is worth its weight in gold in that it takes you through all the necessary machining, forming, finishing, and silver soldering, techniques required for any and  all steam engines regardless of application. After building this loco according to the book I was able to build a matching "Baldwin American" 4-4-0 (think classic western loco) from scratch with no plans. And to repeat what others have said, don't make your boat engine first, start on something you can put on a shelf if you make too many mistakes (most of us have boxes full of throw-away parts!). And don't start with something too small, too small comes with its own set of challenges. 3/4" to 1" bore is a good place to start for steam, and 1" for IC engines.  Peter Lawrence.


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## Jasonb (Nov 22, 2018)

Forget using your drill press for milling. Get a "vertical slide" to fit your lathe and then your lathe becomes a mill on it's side. This gives you a suitable spindle and the ability to position the work to 0.001" using the lathes handwheels. Mill is certainly easier but as you say a mill is not needed provided you can develope the skills to use the lathe. This was done without a mill but I would not want to go back to that method again.







I would also forget about making your own patterns and find designs that are made from barstock, even a lot of castings can actually be either cut from solid or fabricated. For example you mention cast standards but with 3 bits of steel and some silver solder plus some machining you can make a "cast" standard
















Post the link to the engine you are thinking of doing so we can see if what you are proposing is a good option or not.


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## minh-thanh (Nov 22, 2018)

Hi Jasonb !
If possible, you can provide some more image of section  in picture :


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 22, 2018)

Greetings all, thanks Jason for your advice, and also Peter. Ok, I am not going to build Locomotive that is out, I have nothing against trains, but I am a Titanic type, but thank you for trying, the book ,yes thank you I appreciate the advice, and yes steam is really all the same whether a Train, ship or tractor or what ever. I am sorry I am a dummy when it comes to building a engine, but more a dummy when it comes posting photos. I can look up were I down loaded the single vertical I am going to build and then you all will know. Thanks for telling me not to build casting, yes yuck,I don't want to either.

I want to my steam engine out of a softer metal choice, other then hard as rock steel. Could you fellow friends please give some material options and types for example 6061 . I like aluminium but do not want to use it I prefer heavy stuff as my tug needs all the weight it can get. 

I asked you all about Lead Steel but no one answered me on that, does lack of response mean No? Please kindly let me know. Ok no drillpress, Roger that; but I am buying one anyway since I need one as I do a bench belt sander for my model ship building.

You that live states side, your lucky you no, because you pay about half what we have to pay up here for a vertical milling machine , I will never ever pay 1500.00$ cad for a milling machine no way . I will stick to a lathe milling attachment and face plate. Jason you do great work thank you for the photos . 

I do no how to Braze there you see, one thing I am good at. Ha ha. Boilers, yes will build that too boilers are no easy task neither , but again buying one is expensive. My plans for the condensing steam engine are nice, I was told that I should not attempt it ever, that these are two complicated perhaps so. In going to buy a independent four jaw chuck, but have noted they do not come with a back mounting plate. My chuck is 100mm. I will now go look up the vertical I want to build and indicate where the plans are, which were free to down load.
Thanks again all.
Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 22, 2018)

Well if you don't want to use steel or aluminium and you don't seem to like spending money you could be in problems as the only alternatives would be brass and bronze which are considerably more expensive, cylinder could be cut from a block of cast iron bar.

For Minh


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 22, 2018)

Hello Jason, no it's not a matter of spending it it's a matter of what I can afford, I do not mind aluminum after all you did aluminum and it looks great. I cannot afford a milling machine the cost in Canada is astronomical even for a harbour Freight one. Those that have one are very lucky. Some asked exactly which engine am I going to build as my first, here is the answer, anyone wanting to look will have to download the plan I cannot supply it, if anyone wants to take the trouble then come on the forum and give me there over all opinion on the plans and articial included ,by all means ,please do so.

It's on Google's website, the name of the site on google is , steam engine plans - for everything plan number 43down from the top or third from the bottom of the first page. Aphoto of the engine is there and the description simply states" small vertical engine, so please take a look and tell me what you think.

I figure that some items like the Slide valve according to some people I have communicated with, is too tricky for beginners on the first go, but I had a look at the plan and desided that it is not that difficult to build based on the drawing. I will not use castings. I for me, figure that I my as well start with the engine I wish to build as long as I understand the instructions and drawings. I have had another member , help me with the standard question, and I have some books on there way, thanks ever so kindly. I think that many engines are have some hit and miss or have some requirements that require the builder to make ajustments and in testing the finished unit there are ajustments some settings and torque settings are not indicated for example in the case of my engines SlideValve the author of the plan indicated that the nuts for the SlideValve must be fairly tight when screwed on to the threaded part of the SlideValve how tight is guess work by the builder, since the tightness is not specified. It was suggested, that I not build the condensing version, but I may in the future. I will probably end up building a ray double for my tug later once I have enough experience. Which takes time. Mild steel is certainly an option and yes I do know how expensive bronze and brass actually is. But so is aluminum depending on what grades you buy the same as steel. We have had a problem with a screen hacker on our tablets, he is hacking my key pad and my wife and I have big case against Canada right now with the ICC, alot people out there no not Canada at all. I am a Religious Human Rights person which is someone who fights against the scum of the earth , this has led to hacking of our communications, I do not generally speak of this, but since the hacker is currently in here with me, I figured I might as well tell, maybe he will leave. Please don't bother commenting friends we will stick to the engine things. Regards Dan &Jen.


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## fcheslop (Nov 22, 2018)

For my marine engines I prefer bronze or gun metal for the cylinders as theres no rust problems when laid up
As most of my model boats spend more time collecting dust than in the water it makes life simpler for me
A horizontal boiler would be my choice as the weight is low down in the hull
If you look on Model Boat Mayhem for the late Pattern Makers build of  Wide Awake you may get some info and the boilers designer may chip in
Would it not be possible to simply double up the French designed Soumard twin with reversing gear just below the engine you refer to
http://www.plans-for-everything.com/hen_steam_engine_plans.html
Have you seen this site
http://members.dodo.com.au/~sjbatche/making_rudders.htm


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## minh-thanh (Nov 22, 2018)

Thanks Jasonb !


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 22, 2018)

Hello Jason, thanks for your message, no I am not interested in French Designs as they are metric and I am not good with metric, yes up here everything is in metric. I prefer imperial measurements they're easy to work with. And I prefer a first engine to be a single, I am going to build one of Rays doubles I am sure for the tug. Props thank you for sending me some websights, I am going to build my own props it's actually not hard to build a prop, left or right either direction will work, having a lathe to.mill a brass hub is a big plus, but in order to place the blades in correctly you will need guides and the hub in the middle, exact middle, a jig for three or four places is required in order for the angle of each blade offset . The jigs are easy to make out of solid brass squares. The engine I referred to is number 43 from the top down or third from the bottom, did you not find it, it's a single vertical.? Must go.
Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 23, 2018)

To save you having to convert everything from a cast design to fabricated have a look at Brian's vertical Steam Engine which is basically a barstock version of a D10, just make half of it for a single.

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/back-to-steam.27057/

Assume its on John Tom but can't find the one you refer to, page layout may be different on your phone to PC what is the engine called

http://www.john-tom.com/html/SteamPlans.html


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 23, 2018)

Hi Jason ,you can't find it, that's weird, it's not at Tom, it's in "Steam Engine Plans -  For Everything,  its title is (Small Vertical Engine) it looks just like a Stuart. It's also on eBay under Steam engine plans. It's the same on my phone as it is on your PC, or it should be.
Regards
Dan. Let me know, there should be 45 designs in the list mine is 43 down from the top or third from the bottom.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 23, 2018)

Hello all, and Jason, I went into Steam engine plans, again, and the engine is there, I emailed them to ask why you cannot find it, or why on your system it's not being shown. I also want to Thank DW for all his help and wish him and all a happy thanks giving in the U.S. Jason I suggest perhaps you email ,Steam engine plans and ask them as well because there address is in Huntington Beach C.A USA my mobile view is the same as your PC, because generally if the site is not applicable to mobile tablets I will get a notification at the bottom of my screen asking me if I want to switch to a mobile friendly site, I never have in that site. I have to go with my laptop to down load the plans so I can print them off and some others I have as well , I cannot down load off my phone for ? Some myst. Reason, my phone is going back to Motorola it was hacked programs changes were made, I can no longer do a Hard reboot from outside the phone, as a result of this filthy hacker. Anyway please try and access those plans since I could really use some advice regarding the drawings.
Again Happy Thanks Giving to all States side and thank you very kindly for all your help.
Daniel


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## Jasonb (Nov 23, 2018)

You had mentioned Toms site earlier but I can see now it is the Woodson engine from Popular Science.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 24, 2018)

Hi Jason sorry for my late reply, you found it, that's great it comes with the build artical which helps. The drawings are fairly straight forward.

I was checking out milling attachments for my 7×14 lathe many say that it's not a good idea,one reason is the stresses placed on the Saddle, in others, they stated that when using a vertical milling attachment that lights cuts can only be made. Apparently the Milling attachment that the little machine shops sells it not meant for hard bore drilling. I have seen a milling attachment on eBay but it's for a Myford. I have seen some very good four jaw Chuck's, these are not a problem. But the milling attachment is a problem.

I thank you for your advice and the drawing with the bar on it.good set of drawings I see. Others have recommended a Oscillating engine as well , I want a big vertical twin for my tug but must first build the single, but not just one, my first engine shall be four in total .

Ok had a look at that double that other machinist did on his computer,ya I was thinking the same thing ,make the legs separate but he said that the legs perhaps would brass, but the rest of the standard in steel, question how do shoulder brass legs to a steel standard? 

Regarding Castings, I would mine out of hard wood if the case then the rest of the parts my as well be casted as well, perhaps for a one off engine, matching all the parts are the way to go, but if you plan on making several of the same engine, then molds you went to great trouble to make can be re-used  for a number of the same engine. 

Regarding milling items, it would be nice if some company would offer a conversion kit, to change a drill press into a vertical milling machine, I do know that some company's are producing some machined parts for drill presses so that they can mill and take side loads. That's the number one problem with drill presses then no 2 is keeping the quill locked in place so that it does not fall out. You actually can drill out a bore with a press I have been informed, I will check on this further. Well must go.
Regards
Dan


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## Hopper (Nov 24, 2018)

You are better off to use a vertical slide on a lathe for milling. It is more sturdy than either a vertical milling head attachment or a cobbled up drill press. Many many model engines were made this way in the 100 years or so before cheap Chinese milling machines became available. 

Avoid the double-swivel type vertical slides as they are not as robust as the fixed type that has just the single pivot on the base. More sturdy for larger model work. You only need the double swivel type for cutting special gears etc.


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## Jasonb (Nov 25, 2018)

You said you can braze so that is ideal for joining brass and steel.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 25, 2018)

Thank you kindly for all  your advice. I was not sure if Brazing was to hot for brass, I have not welded for 25 years, now age and memory are the other half.

I have a 7×14 Chinese lathe, but again I ask you which kind of vertical slide should I buy. I saw some on eBay, each is different ,some have a vertical vice on the slide with a adjustment wheel at the top some just have the slide grooves in them but no clamps to hold work or a mill to it.

Could one of you go on eBay and have a look then let me know your suggestions. There is one there for a Myford 7 it says it applicable to other lathes as well, they give very little information on what they are selling or applications for that matter. They never indicate that a certain product will work on a 7 by 14 or any other lathe.its just Myford seven indicated. I have a nice four jaw independent chuck but comes with no backing plate ? I must go, advice is well accepted. 
Regards
Daniel.


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## Cymro77 (Nov 25, 2018)

I asked you all about Lead Steel but no one answered me on that, does lack of response mean No? Please kindly let me know. Ok no drillpress, Roger that; but I am buying one anyway since I need one as I do a bench belt sander for my model ship building.


Dan.[/QUOTE]

What you are calling Lead Steel, is probably 12L10 which I find easy to machine.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 25, 2018)

Thanks again for the lead steel information could you please indicate what you milled with this material.
Regards
Dan.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 25, 2018)

Thanks again for the lead steel information could you please indicate what you milled with this material.
Regards
Dan.


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## Cymro77 (Nov 25, 2018)

The steel is 12L14 (not 12L10 sorry for the error) - either way it has multiple uses, is fairly cheap and easy to mill.  I have used it for many Steam engine components.  It finishes quite nicely.  I have made cylinders, shafts and other components, even used it for a very small crankshaft. You can get it cold rolled in multiple shapes and forms.


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## D&J Fitzgerald (Nov 25, 2018)

Regarding Lead steel cold rolled , thanks kindly, regarding cylinders, my understanding of lead steal as it is called ,is that, in order to harden it you must bore then when finished, this material must be heated red hot then quenched in order to harden it, but with heat there is expansion then shrinkage, so question , when making a 1 1/4 cylinder bore,should this steal be heat treated , and if so, after or before drilling a bore hole?

At this point for me, I guess it does not matter to some extent, but I still must know. A milling anything has become an issue , I do have a cross slide to attach a milling attachment my cross slide has a middle slot so the toilet can be adjusted in and out. I would to buy a milling attachment that is bolted through my saddle and directly sitting on the saddle as opposed to the toolrest cross slide which is sitting on my saddle. My friend DW thank you for the photos of your cross slide and everything else you have been so kind in giving as well other home machinists I thank you very kindly. If you go on eBay and simply type in the words Verticall Milling Attachment a number of them will pop up. Now my chuck is 100 mm and 100 mm from centre to saddle I believe. I think my best bet is a saddle mounted mill with out the base plate if if such a thing exists? The one at the little machine shop, thank you DW is too expensive please have a look at eBay some are their and someone please make a recommendation to me. There is one there for a MyFord seven and is apparently adoptable to other machines but which machines remains a mystery, I just might make my own cross slide for a vertical mill probably not since it needs a adjustment wheel. Could modify my cross slide by knotching it I guess not.

My tailstock sits on the saddle and has a bolt and plate the bolt tightens and the little plate grips under the saddle to hold the tailstock in place, I must admit that I am not happy with that kind of cheesy arrangement on a Chinese low cost lathe, but it does work. I wish I wish I wish I had a 1000.00 $ now then I could by a milling machine but I do not. Ok now most say no do not try converting a Drill press Dan, it will not work or will it? I prefer the milling attachment as well. Tell you what, I will buy a milling attachment, if it does not fit then I shall make it fit some how. Must go getting late. Thanks all.
Dan.


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## Jasonb (Nov 26, 2018)

Might as well be talking to a brick wall. Look at post#8 just after you asked about leaded steel and SEE WHAT I SAID TO USE FOR YOUR CYLINDER

You have also said that you don't want to machine steel so why are you asking about using it for your cylinder?

A block of iron (you do not have to cast it) will be a better material for the job and easier to machine than steel.

If you did use leaded steel it does NOT need to be hardened and your description of hardening would do nothing to this low carbon steel


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## goldstar31 (Nov 26, 2018)

Dan
Perhaps you should re-read specifications of steels. Frankly, I would be loathe  to use EN1A which is what we old Limey B******* called the stuff. Having said that, it is wonderful to machine to a high finish but it is terrible stuff to weld although it will silver solder really well. However, it is low in carbon and you will have the Devil's luck if you can  harden it. It will case harden OK. There are differences and the last thing that you should do is expect it as 'the answer to a maiden's prayer'. Essentially, it is a MILD steel.

Regarding the choice of a vertical mill, I agree with the comments that a fixed slide is more rigid but there are times when a one wants to machine angles etc. As for versatility of Myford vertical slides, they are now quite ancient and usually Imperial. I have one which will take a vice or a rotary table( amongst other things) but even at that, it really needs to have the gib strip 'pinned'. Again, I have still one slide which came from an old Perfecto lathe- probably made by Maudsley or Da Vinci. Mine still works and both have lived on various lathes other than Myfords. Importantly, it is the ability of the user and NOT the machine. They merely make some tasks easier- nothing more!

Whilst I have Four lathes- not counting my little watchmaker's pair of turns(tours) and a couple of mills  and a heap of tool and cutter grinders, I still use lots of simple jigs  and either bolt them together or stick them with a weld or drill and tap holes ad nauseum to get the job done. Somewhat harshly, you might be surprised what can be done with a bloody big chunk of metal bolted to the cross slide and peppered with holes, tapped and otherwise. The old brigade has them and usually gets to forget to mention them- because they are so NORMAL.

My advice is probably spend more money and time reading the classic books which were written 50 or 100 years ago instead of writing screeds to someone  out on the internet somewhere with qualifications and experiences which may not be all that great but who will freely copy what probably have come from the ancients- and lost a lot in the telling.

So go get yourself that bloody big chunk of metal-- and exercise your 'engine-u-ity'

Norm


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## Jasonb (Nov 26, 2018)

> Perhaps you should re-read specifications of steels. Frankly, I would be loathe to use EN1A which is what we old Limey B******* called the stuff.



Are you sure Norm, I call leaded steel EN1A Pb as that is the leaded one, EN1A is not leaded


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## goldstar31 (Nov 26, 2018)

Jasonb said:


> Are you sure Norm, I call leaded steel EN1A Pb as that is the leaded one, EN1A is not leaded



Jason
I confess to 'Don't Know'. My experiences were that when I went to buy 11 foot lengths of 'round',  I asked for EN1A and quipped 'leaded' and got it. Chopped it in halves and  handed one half to an even older old mate who was like me an aficionado of the late George Thomas of immortal memory.

I do, realise that the specification names have changed since and would be happy to be further advised.

Recently with diminishing stocks, I bought a load ( £40) of useable lengths of steel for home use. I had a limit of £100 and laughingly, the supplier said that my little car would break with that amount on board. 

What I got seemingly will machine, silver solder and weld with my Mig. 

Conclusion, £40( 40quid) was less than the diesel in the car tank. Priorities still in place- I hope

Regards

N


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## Jasonb (Nov 26, 2018)

By asking for leaded you would have got EN1A Pb as Pb is the chemical symbol for lead.

Basic EN1A is a free cutting mild steel but the addition of lead into EN1A Pb enhances the machinability and is what makes it really nice to machine but does put the cost up.

These are old descriptions but any steel tockholder will know what you want but modern would be as shown on this chart, but you will see that even the latest codes put Pb at the end for leaded.

https://www.parkersteel.co.uk/media/pdf/standards/colour_chart.pdf


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## goldstar31 (Nov 26, 2018)

So my thanks for adding to my small fund of knowledge.
I would guess that my recent car load of 'offcuts' will 'see me out'

This supply was Jenkins Steel in nearby Cramlington, Northumberland with a walk around  and me saying , I'll have that and that and at the eventual costing got my stock at 'scrap prices'.

Going back to our OP, I wonder whether he has read how Martin Cleeve bought half a Myford ML7 new and without anything more than  a faceplate and 4 jaw chuck went on to make -- his own nuts and bolts, a drilling machine, a set of micrometers, a grinder, a book called 'Screwcutting in the Lathe' and --- a vertical slide.

He didn't whinge or claim poverty but my researches discovered that

oops

N


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## Bentwings (Aug 29, 2022)

D&J Fitzgerald said:


> hello, i am a newbee, i have a question perhaps someone could answer. I wish to build a Vertical Double Steam Engine with reverse gear. i have looked on the internet at at various plans offered for free down loading but non fit the bill, i cannot cast were we are living nore am i interested at this time. if i must cast then these would have to be custom made ,but from whom, i do not know. what i am looking for is a set of plans for a double vertical marine engine with drawings for reverse  gear. i wish a cylinder bore of 1 inch not 3/4the vessel is 8 ft. long, the stuart double ten as an example is too small according to articals i have read. i am looking for one that does not require castings.
> 
> if not, can i increase the size of the vertical Jepson engine plans to a 1 1/4 bore, this engine is not a double its a single this the reason for a 1 1/4 inch bore asopposed to a 1 inch bore. i have another set of free plans also for a bigger engine the plan for this engine are exellent its a unit with a Lp cylinder and Hp cylinder but it requires castings or can i not use castings and instead mill solid material. this engine plan comes with no reverse gear drawings either which is a problem. also i cannot find any good books on amazon nor ebay on how to build a steam engine sadly, what is available is not according to people whom bought some of the few books available, not very helpfull. any help on the above would be appreciated very much. i have a mill and lathe but still must purchase some tooling. i wish to indicate how happy i was in ordering for the little machine shop, they are very good highly recommended.
> 
> ...




Blondie hacks on you tube has a really nice steam build  she is a very good machinist snd designer  . Here YouTube videos are excellent . Her steamer build was from a set of castings  she details every step of the way . Even when accidentally crashed her lathe she detailed the repair exactly   It probably came out better than it was new .


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## packrat (Aug 30, 2022)

Blondie hacks has moved to Canada and setting up a new shop..Bentwings is right on, Blondie hacks is very good, I have learned some
lathe and milling tricks from her....


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## n8hfi (Aug 31, 2022)

D&J Fitzgerald said:


> My question is, in the book, is there a set of plans for a small double Vertical say with 1 to 1 1/4 bore, or a single with a single with a 1 1/4 bore that would fit my 7 ft. tugboat? could someone please answer this question thanks.
> Dan.



I have Ray's book, the engines are:

A One-Cylinder, Double-acting Open Column Steam Engine, 2.25" bore, 3" stroke
One-Flea-power "Little Boy", 1/8" bore, 3/16" stroke
A Horizontal Mill Steam Engine with oscillating rotary valve, 1" bore, 1.375" stroke
A Simple, Single Column Steam Engine, 5/8" bore, 1/2" stroke
A Two-Cylinder, Double-acting Marine Steam Engine with Stephenson reverse gear, 2" bore, 2.5" stroke
A Two-cylinder Single-acting Steam Engine, 5/8" bore, 1/2" stroke
A Two-cylinder Steam Engine, with reversing by port exchange, 5/8" bore, 5/8" stroke
A Two-cylinder, 90° Vee Marine Steam Engine with Stephenson reversing gear, 1.875" bore, 2" stroke
An Oscillating, Two-cylinder Reversing Steam Engine with feed pump, 3/4" bore, 3/4" stroke
A Reversing Column Steam Engine, 2.25" bore, 3" stroke
The text references #1 being used for a 16' launch, and there are photographs of #10 powering two boats, one a catamaran made of a pair of canoes, the other an 18' launch.
Rudy Kouhopt has a twin vertical compound engine, 1.125" and 1.5" bore, reversing, which is all bar stock.


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## Johan Maritz (Sep 5, 2022)

My advice would be a bar stock engine as a first, rather than a casting set. Casting sets are expensive and so easy to do something wrong. Daunting in the beginning to plot your dimensions on a rough casting. With a bar stock, if you made a mistake, cut another piece of metal and start again, speaking of experience here.


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