# Experimental Engines



## arborpress (Feb 27, 2013)

Has anybody built any experimental/ prototype design engines? I'm just curious because I'm very interested in all the concept rotary/super efficiency/crazy claims engines and I'm currently in the process of designing my own. (which I swear I will actually build) ;D
But anyway, from seeing so many conceptual videos of cool engine ideas, but very few running prototypes, I wonder what these people are waiting for. I mean, everyone here could probably build them in a matter of days by simply looking at the conceptual animations and seeing how it works.
Has anybody done anything like that? Some examples of the concepts I'm talking about are the Scuderi, libralato, Liquidpiston, Rad Max, astremo, Revetec, Ox2, Star Rotor, Anroon, Hefley, or even the Wankel engine. Some of these are truly fascinating mechanisms.


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## Brian Rupnow (Feb 27, 2013)

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/brian-builds-atkinson-engine-18313/


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## dman (Feb 27, 2013)

arborpress said:


> Has anybody built any experimental/ prototype design engines? I'm just curious because I'm very interested in all the concept rotary/super efficiency/crazy claims engines and I'm currently in the process of designing my own. (which I swear I will actually build) ;D
> But anyway, from seeing so many conceptual videos of cool engine ideas, but very few running prototypes, I wonder what these people are waiting for. I mean, everyone here could probably build them in a matter of days by simply looking at the conceptual animations and seeing how it works.
> Has anybody done anything like that? Some examples of the concepts I'm talking about are the Scuderi, libralato, Liquidpiston, Rad Max, astremo, Revetec, Ox2, Star Rotor, Anroon, Hefley, or even the Wankel engine. Some of these are truly fascinating mechanisms.



i dunno about the others but wenkels are tough because of the geometry of the housing is complex. it's not just 2 ajacent circles that overlap with a radius. it has to do with how a point on a cirle rolls around another. it's a hard thing to make and a hard thing to measure to know if you got it right.


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## stevehuckss396 (Feb 27, 2013)

Personally I have no interest in experimenting. My main focus is building working MODELS of the engines that are a part of my past. Usually the engines that were the most fun for me. My Chevy V8 that made 1225 horsepower. The engine that was on my mini bike. The engine that is in my 1928 ford. Not the 4 cylinder in my 2009 ford focus.


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## myrickman (Feb 27, 2013)

Here is one I made a few years ago. It uses epicyclic gearing to operate the exhaust valve. The idea came from Hiscox book on gas engines. I made patterns for the gearing, had them cast and finished them on the rotary table. It is a hit and miss but in this video, it is running on the cock only. The steam frame is an old Orr and Sembower which was missing the cylinder and links.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPTtiTCesQY[/ame]


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## arborpress (Feb 27, 2013)

I forgot about the Atkinson cycle! What a pretty engine.



dman said:


> i  dunno about the others but wenkels are tough because of the geometry of  the housing is complex. it's not just 2 ajacent circles that overlap  with a radius. it has to do with how a point on a cirle rolls around  another. it's a hard thing to make and a hard thing to measure to know  if you got it right.



Yeah, that's true, and probably almost impossible to mill a complex  curve like that by hand. I've seen someone use a cnc to build one, but  if I recall correctly, he never got it running. Couldn't get the seals  to work properly. 



stevehuckss396 said:


> Personally I have no interest in experimenting. My main focus is building working MODELS of the engines that are a part of my past. Usually the engines that were the most fun for me. My Chevy V8 that made 1225 horsepower. The engine that was on my mini bike. The engine that is in my 1928 ford. Not the 4 cylinder in my 2009 ford focus.



 I do mean small scale models, by the way. But yeah, I understand completely. I've been preparing for a 1:4 Cosworth DFV build  but just wondering about some other less traditional internal combustion engines


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## old-and-broken (Feb 28, 2013)

Looks doable  (by someone) probably not me


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## windy (Feb 28, 2013)

In the UK there are bands on the tethered hydroplane scene that build homemade competition engines of IC and Steam power units.

We are always trying to push the limits for the love of speed.

Bob Kirtley designed his Flash steam engine that mine is loosely based on but with my own little tweaks.

Many engine designs have been tried in the past (steam) but with more modern materials etc. they have been given more power and are competitive with IC designs.

Myself I would like to try chemical produced steam to increase power but chemicals like concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide are not a thing the man in the street can purchase.

If I get my steam turbine finished I would need vast amounts of steam to be equal in power to my steam piston engine.

There are no limits to what can be thought of but cutting materials and running a finished product can be daunting after all the effort.

If we did not have an enquiring mind we would not progress.

Paul


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## arborpress (Feb 28, 2013)

old-and-broken said:


> Looks doable  (by someone) probably not me


Scuderi Cycle. It looks very doable, and it reminds me of the "twingle" engine. I don't know much about that one though.




windy said:


> In the UK there are bands on the tethered hydroplane scene that build homemade competition engines of IC and Steam power units.
> 
> We are always trying to push the limits for the love of speed.
> 
> ...



Here in the U.S. I think the highest concentration of hydrogen peroxide commonly available is 3%. Maybe 80-90 cents for a 16oz bottle. But from what I understand, you can slowly heating it to just under 100C, just until you see bubbles form on the bottom, which will evaporate the water out (apparently H2O is slightly more volatile than H2O2) and you will end up with a higher concentration. You would end up with a much smaller amount, but hey, its relatively cheap.


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## Philjoe5 (Feb 28, 2013)

When a solution of hydrogen peroxide is warmed up, this reaction occurs:

 [FONT=&quot]2 H2O2 =[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2 H2O + O2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the gas bubbles you see are pure oxygen gas.  They are the oxidant part of the combustion process.  As soon as they find a fuel, the reductant, and some amount of energy (heat, spark etc.) away she goes.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You can't get a solution of hydrogen peroxide to be more concentrated by heating it.  
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Phil
[/FONT]


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## Lakc (Feb 28, 2013)

arborpress said:


> But anyway, from seeing so many conceptual videos of cool engine ideas, but very few running prototypes, I wonder what these people are waiting for.



Often, thats your first clue. If you can build it someone can measure it, and then, most of those fancy claims of a better idea meet cold harsh reality. Its much easier to cover up friction and physics with CGI and unrealistic FEA data. 



> I mean, everyone here could probably build them in a matter of days by simply looking at the conceptual animations and seeing how it works.



I am sure *some* people here can build some impressive things in a matter of days. I think most of us that have been through a complicated engine build probably quote a more realistic time frame in months, if not years.
A recently retired guy who eats his wheaties and has an unlimited budget  would probably put us to shame, but thats a rare combination, and the reason you should all root for me to hold the winning lottery ticket.


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## arborpress (Feb 28, 2013)

Philjoe5 said:


> When a solution of hydrogen peroxide is warmed up, this reaction occurs:
> 
> [FONT=&quot]2 H2O2 =[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2 H2O + O2[/FONT]
> 
> ...



That may be true, but we are trying to concentrate a dilutted mixture of H2O and H2O2 by removing some of the water, not start a chemical reaction. By heating it to a point below it's boiling temperature, we are simply evaporating some of the water out of the mixture, not altering the H2O2. A chemical reaction does not occur. 
At least that is my understanding of the situation. I very well may be wrong, but I have found a few youtube videos demonstrating the process and it seems to make sense. But again, I could be wrong. I am not a chemist after all.


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## Philjoe5 (Feb 28, 2013)

> we are trying to concentrate a dilutted mixture of H2O and H2O2 by removing some of the water, not start a chemical reaction.



You may not intend to start a chemical reaction but that is exactly what will happen.

If you heat a solution of common salt water, the water will evaporate and the salt will increase its concentration.

Heating a solution of hydrogen peroxide will destroy the hydrogen peroxide and it will not be more concentrated.

Education by youtube videos will often lead to false assumptions IMHO.

Phil


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## arborpress (Mar 1, 2013)

Philjoe5 said:


> You may not intend to start a chemical reaction but that is exactly what will happen.
> 
> If you heat a solution of common salt water, the water will evaporate and the salt will increase its concentration.
> 
> ...



Ah, ok I understand now. I find Youtube to be a great source of education. For instance if I wanted to know how to replace the front brake calipers in a 2003 BMW 325i, I could easily find a video with sufficient information to do the service. I know now that that isn't necessarily the case for chemistry haha


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## Philjoe5 (Mar 1, 2013)

Arborpress,
Of course, you are right.  I find youtube vids pretty helpful myself.  Just sayin' if that's all you are relying on for info, Buyer Beware.

Phil


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## BronxFigs (Mar 26, 2013)

What about Hydrogen Peroxide that women use to bleach their hair?  Is it more concentrated?  It works on men...

Frank


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## Philjoe5 (Mar 26, 2013)

Frank,
That stuff is usually a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide in water.  

Concentrations of hydrogen peroxide at the 30% level are used in laboratories as a strong oxidizing agent.  At that concentration nasty things happen to the skin.

But as a fuel oxidizer in (rocket) engines, concentrations need to go higher than 85%.  Then it's referred to as high-test peroxide.

Phil


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## old-and-broken (Mar 29, 2013)

The MSDS of hydrogen peroxide warns of the following: 
_"Soluble fuels (acetone, ethanol,  glycerol) will detonate on a mixture with peroxide over 30%  concentration, the violence increasing with concentration. Explosive  with acetic acid, acetic anhydride, acetone, alcohols, carboxylic acids,  nitrogen containing bases, As2S3, Cl2 + KOH, FeS, FeSO4 + 2  methylpryidine + H2SO4, nitric acid, potassium permanganate, P2O5, H2Se,  Alcohols + H2SO4, Alcohols + tin chloride, Antimoy trisulfide,  chlorosulfonic acid, Aromatic hydrocarbons + trifluoroacetic acid,  Azeliac acid + sulfuric acid (above 45 C), Benzenesulfonic anhydride,  tert-butanol + sulfuric acid, Hydrazine, Sulfuric acid, Sodium iodate,  Tetrahydrothiophene, Thiodiglycol, Mercurous oxide, mercuric oxide, Lead  dioxide,_ 
_Lead oxide, Manganese dioxide,  Lead sulfide, Gallium + HCl, Ketenes + nitric acid, Iron (II) sulfate +  2-methylpyridine + sulfuric acid, Iron (II) sulfate + nitric acid, +  sodium carboxymethylcellulose (when evaporated), Vinyl acetate,  trioxane, water + oxygenated compounds (eg: acetaldehyde, acetic acid,  acetone, ethanol, formaldehyde, formic acid, methanol, 2-propanol,  propionaldehyde), organic compounds. Beware: Many mixtures of hydrogen  peroxide and organic materials may not explode upon contact. However,  the resulting combination is detonatable either upon catching fire or by  impact. 
EXPLOSION __HAZARD: SEVERE,  WHEN HIGHLY CONCENTRATED OR PURE H2O2 IS EXPOSED TO HEAT, MECHANICAL  IMPACT, OR CAUSED TO DECOMPOSE CATALYTICALLY BY METALS & THEIR  SALTS, DUSTS & ALKALIES. ANOTHER SOURCE OF HYDROGEN PEROXIDE  EXPLOSIONS IS FROM SEALING THE MATERIAL IN STRONG CONTAINERS.__UNDER  SUCH CONDITIONS EVEN GRADUAL DECOMPOSITION OF HYDROGEN PEROXIDE TO  WATER + 1/2 OXYGEN CAN CAUSE LARGE PRESSURES TO BUILD UP IN THE  CONTAINERS WHICH MAY BURST EXPLOSIVELY._I went and found the MSDS for concentrated hydrogen peroxide.   :0  

In some cases it can be detonated, just like nitro-glycerine, by a sharp impact.   I wouldn't want to mess with it at all for any reason in the home hobby/shop environment.


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## lotsasteam (Mar 29, 2013)

wasn't hydrogen peroxide a propellant used in the Russian sub which exploded because of a dropped torpedo during loading ,a micro crack let water+ oxygen enter the torpedo and developed into a time bomb?  

Manfred


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## ProfX (Nov 13, 2014)

Hei arborpress did you got any advance on your idea of building a non conventional engine?

I have been always interested on the Revetec design, and I think building one is probably quite doable for someone with the right skills.
I'm "only" a powertrain engineer, so I have the technical background but no real experience building anything like this, but I would like to help design something based on the Revetec ideas.

I think the simplest way would be to star from an 2 stroke boxer glow engine, and from there evolve to an revetec type of engine.


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## Longboy (Dec 15, 2014)

You will find in the world of Stirling engines great opportunity for original one off design. Not to alter or improve on the principle of operation but the many varied layouts of framing, linkage and placement of cylinders. Also the relative numbers of parts compared to I/C and steam ease the prototype process.


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