# Manual or DRO



## Davewild (Apr 30, 2013)

Hi all

I have been lurking around here for a while now and took the plunge today,
First let me say I am amazed at some of the work you guys produce, I currently do not have any machines, a bit of background I work offshore, 3 month trips never in the same location, any way after doing some research of Unimat, Taig and Sherline I have decided to buy a Sherline lathe and mill, I will carry it offshore with me and learn to use it while I am away, we have a lot of down time and sometimes I have nothing to do for weeks, so this will keep me busy, I would like to ask should I go for the manual or digital readout? Advantages etc? I wanted to start a new post to ask these question but could not find the new post link!!!!

Thanks

Dave


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## lohring (Apr 30, 2013)

I couldn't live without the DRO on my larger mill.,  It makes hole pattern drilling, feature machining and even moderate precision operations easy.  I needed to machine two angle brackets yesterday with holes and slots that matched existing brackets.  Just laying out the pattern would have been close enough, but the DRO allowed the copies to be machined within a few thousandths of the original in the same time or less.

Lohring Miller


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## BillyHill (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm also a huge fan of DRO's but if you really want to "learn" to use these tools you should go with dials or at least not use the DRO until you've learned to work from dials. It's kind of antiquated (like using a vernier caliper, which I do) but it's good knowledge that will serve you more than you know.


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## schilpr (Apr 30, 2013)

Agree with Billy, good skill to have to be able to work without them.

I learned on non-DRO machines and non-digital calipers, and it's a good skill to have. Just bought my first mill with DRO and I'm looking forward to working with it, I think it will speed my work up, but I don't think there is anything I can do with DRO that I can't do without.

by the way, I prefer vernier calipers as well, it's great that many people are selling them cheap, I've been able to build up a very nice collection of quality measuring tools cheap.


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## 4156df (Apr 30, 2013)

Dave,
For the Sherline, my suggestion would be to buy the DRO for the mill and stick with dials for the lathe.  That gives you the opportunity to learn to use dials without the frustration of losing count as you traverse the longer distances on the mill.  I would also suggest the "Zero Set" dials for the lathe.

You should also be aware that the Sherline DRO senses the dial position rather than the table position.  As a beginner this isn't necessarily a bad thing because it teaches you to be aware of backlash.  Something that's very important to learn.  DAMHIKT

The Sherline should be a good choice for what you plan to do.  Don't know how often you move, but there are some nifty cases and tables for the Sherline if you do a Google search.

Dennis


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## kuhncw (Apr 30, 2013)

I agree with Dennis.  Definitely go with DROs on the mill, due to the long distances you will be moving the table.  Get the zero set dials on the lathe, but if budget allows, DROs on the lathe is a plus and I doubt you will miss not having manual dials.

Regards,

Chuck


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## lohring (Apr 30, 2013)

I agree with dials on the lathe.  I installed scales on my South Bend lathe.  The carriage travel scale has been very useful but the cross slide scale has not.  If the length of a cut is critical, a dial indicator on the carriage will often be fine.  I too learned with dials on a mill.  I would never go back.

Lohring Miller


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## Davewild (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone, I will go with Dro on the lathe, I will have to look at the mill again, the one I was going to buy does not come with a motor  or DRO and you take the motor from the lathe, I wanted to buy like this to save on weight as I will be carrying it with me each time I go to work, going to buy from Ebay, maybe I will talk to the seller and see what he can work out, I want to buy the best I can first time, from my research the Sherline seems like the best choice? It has so many accessories, my offshore work bag is going to get very heavy, thanks again.

Dave


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## Mainer (May 1, 2013)

You don't *need *DROs.  After all, we won WWII without 'em. But...they can certainly be convenient. As others have said, a big help on a milling machine. On a lathe, not so much. Unless the cross slide DRO is accurate to at least 0.0002" IMO it won't be much help because of the radius/diameter issue. An error of 0.0002" on the radius measurement (what the DRO is giving you) means a 0.0004" error on the diameter. If you're doing a piston and its mating bore, and the piston DRO reading happens to be -0.0004" error and the bore reading happens to be +0.0004" error, you could conceivably get a combined error of nearly a thou...and this with a 0.0002" resolution DRO scale. 

From what has been said, I gather that the Sherline DROs are basically just an electronic display of the dial readings. They aren't "real" DROs that independently read position using linear scales. While they may still be useful, they will not increase precision or eliminate the need to manually compensate for backlash (i.e. always approach all positions from the same direction) and that's a good skill to develop.


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## mwilkes (May 1, 2013)

Don't need DROs on a lathe, but I've just put some on my Taig and it's a lovely lovely thing - being able to measure along the lathe bed is especially useful.


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## Sshire (May 1, 2013)

I guess if you "grew up" with dials that would be your choice. As a relatively new chip maker, I wouldn't be without DROs.
I first put a DRO on the mill. The accuracy, repeatability and built in functions (Bolt Hole Circle, center find and multi-position memory,etc) are excellent.
At first, I didn't see a need for a DRO on the lathe. Why did I add one? The problem is that my Grizzly G0602, as do most Chinese mills, has dials that are supposed to be .001 per mark. Almost. The lead screws are metric. Tiny error per mark between imperial and metric but boy does it add up.
My procedure was turn, measure, turn, measure, etc.
The DRO has a .00005 resolution scale on the cross slide. So with the DRO set to display in diameter mode, my displayed resolution is .0001.
My procedure now is make one pass. Measure the diameter. Set that diameter on the DRO and then turn until the DRO sez I'm at the desired diameter. Bang on every time.*
I started with a Sherline mill (with DRO) and learned a lot with it until I got a bigger mill. It is very, very nicely made. Once you calculate how much backlash you have, you enter that as a compensation factor into the
DRO and it's pretty much a non-issue.
My 2 cents.


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## Bastelmike (May 1, 2013)

Sshire said:


> I first put a DRO on the mill. The accuracy, repeatability and built in functions (Bolt Hole Circle, center find and multi-position memory,etc) are excellent.
> At first, I didn't see a need for a DRO on the lathe. Why did I add one? The problem is that my Grizzly G0602, as do most Chinese mills, has dials that are supposed to be .001 per mark. Almost. The lead screws are metric. Tiny error per mark between imperial and metric but boy does it add up.


 
IMO, the usefulness of DROs on lathes and mills is different.

I do not see a necessity for a DRO at my lathe. For turning exact diameters, many cheaper DROs are hardly precise enough. They may have some value for measuring the length movement. But longitudinal dimensions on typical workpieces for lathe work don't have small tolerances.
I don't have a DRO on my lathe and no plans to install one.

The problem with metric screws in the imperial world is a different situation, but as I'm living happily in the metric world, thats not an issue for me.

The situation on mills is different. DROs have high value for positioning for drilling/boring, finding the center of a workpiece...
I own a bridgeport copy with DRO now and find it very nice to have it. Since I have this bridgeport with DRO, I miss a DRO a lot on my other horizontal mill. I have noticed that I now do operations on the bridgeport which I have done on the horizontal Biernatzki before, just because of the DRO.
Of course I could install one on the Biernatzki mill, but a good 3 axis DRO is a significant investment with X travel over 1000mm. With that old mill and the possibility of trading it against a newer mill eventually, I avoid this expense:hDe:
But I miss it regularly when I start working on the horizontal mill 

My advice, buy the mill with a DRO; and go for a DRO that gives exact positions - without backlash.

Mike


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## Tin Falcon (May 1, 2013)

Call me old fashioned but I do not own DROs. 


In USAF trade school none of the  machines had DROs some of the instructors would have liked them on the mills. 
the biggest down side I see is cost. advantages are many especially the newer ones that can calculate a bolt circle pattern. 
I though about dros for the mill but did the cnc thing instead. in hind sight may have gotten more machining done in the last few years with the dro. 

I agree with others a DRO is more useful on the mill but not bad to have on the lathe. 


Please please post pic of your portable workshop when you get it together.  
Tin


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## Mike N (May 1, 2013)

lohring said:


> I agree with dials on the lathe.  I installed scales on my South Bend lathe.  The carriage travel scale has been very useful but the cross slide scale has not.  If the length of a cut is critical, a dial indicator on the carriage will often be fine.  I too learned with dials on a mill.  I would never go back.
> 
> Lohring Miller


 Do you get a stiff neck looking up at the readouts?  I have a set like these to install on my little lathe this weekend.


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## Sshire (May 1, 2013)

Ideally, I'd like an Optivisor with a DRO heads up display.


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## Davewild (May 3, 2013)

Hi all, 
Again thank you all for your input, OK so I have decided to buy the lathe with DRO and the mill attachment, I am not buying the mill as a separate item because it weighs to much to carry to work with me, below is a lists of what I am going to purchase as a start, I may buy a sherline mill as well for use at home, could you help me again by looking at the extra,s/ tooling I will buy and let me know if I have missed something I cannot do without.

Dave

Item to Purchase	Qty.	Price after Options	Ext. Price	Remove
4400C-DRO/4410C-DRO - 3.5" x 17" Lathe Package with DRO 
Item#: 4410C-DRO 
Options: 4410C-DRO (metric): $1,515.00		$1,515.00	 $1,515.00	
1185-DRO/1184-DRO - Vertical Milling Table w/ DRO handwheel 
Item#: 1184-DRO 
Options: 1184-DRO (Metric)		$150.00	 $150.00	
3050-DRO/3053-DRO - Vertical Milling Column w/DRO 
Item#: 3053-DRO 
Options: Vertical milling column DRO-3053-DRO(Vert. Mill Column, metric)		$181.00	 $181.00	
Subtotal:	$1,846.00	 
YOU SAVE $75.00 over the price of these items purchased individually.

The 4400C/4410C deluxe longbed lathe can be ordered with a selection popular accessories. Included are a 3-jaw and drill chuck plus a selection of the most often asked for accessories to outfit your shop.

This package includes a DRO and the "A", "B", and "C" accessory packages.

The "A" accessories include:

3.1" 3-jaw Chuck
3/8" Tailstock Chuck
The "B" accessories include:

1074 Steady rest
1191 Live Center
3002 Cutoff Tool and Holder
3007 3-pc 1/4" HSS Cutting Tool Set (LH, RH, Boring)
3020 5/32" T-driver
3021 3-pc Center Drill Set
5327 Sherline Accessories Shop Guide Book
The "C" accessories include:

1270 (1280 metric) Compound Slide
3100 Thread Cutting Attachment
Available in your choice of inch or metric handwheel graduations.


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## lohring (May 12, 2013)

Mike N said:


> Do you get a stiff neck looking up at the readouts?  I have a set like these to install on my little lathe this weekend.



The readouts are about at eye level.  They're lower than the one on my mill's DRO.  You could mount them on the headstock, but the cabinet was very handy.

Lohring Miller


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## Davewild (Jul 15, 2013)

Hi all

Well it's been a while, I eventually bought the Sherline lathe with the milling attachment without DRO, I am offshore nor with the lathe and have built my first engine, I was really pleased withThe the result for my first engine until I tried to get it to run, it will not do anything!!! No matter what I do, I have tried everything and nothing, I built it as best I could, it is a version of Jan Ridders design with some changes because I had to use whatever I could find onboard to build it with, any clue what I am doing wrong? Hopefully there is an attachment of the engine with this message, Internet is very poor onboard and not sure that it has up loaded.


Dave


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## Davewild (Jul 15, 2013)

Here's a view of the rear,


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## kvom (Jul 15, 2013)

Flame lickers can be hard to get running as they produce very little power, and you need to have very little friction as a result.  On mine I needed to hone the cylinder bore and then lubricate it with graphite powder.  The engine can be finicky about the position of the flame too.


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## Troutsqueezer (Jul 16, 2013)

kvom said:


> Flame lickers can be hard to get running as they produce very little power, and you need to have very little friction as a result.  On mine I needed to hone the cylinder bore and then lubricate it with graphite powder.  The engine can be finicky about the position of the flame too.



Agree. I would have started with a small steam engine where tolerances are more forgiving.

Dennis


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## deverett (Jul 16, 2013)

Davewild said:


> Hi all
> 
> _snip_...  a bit of background I work offshore, 3 month trips never in the same location, any way after doing some research of Unimat, Taig and Sherline I have decided to buy a Sherline lathe and mill, I will carry it offshore with me and learn to use it while I am away, we have a lot of down time and sometimes I have nothing to do for weeks, so this will keep me busy, I would like to ask should I go for the manual or digital readout? Advantages etc? I wanted to start a new post to ask these question but could not find the new post link!!!!
> 
> ...



Dave

I used to work in the offshore oil industry.   When I thought I was going to be based on one rig for quite a long time, I took a Unimat lathe + a basic selection of tooling with me.  Needless to say, bits and pieces accumulated over a short time, so imagine my horror when I was told at home that I would not be going back!  Quite fortuitously, I went back to that rig about a year later an there were all my bits and pieces exactly as I had left them.  I flew home from Muscat with everything distributed between my hold and carry on baggage - in the days when the airlines were not as strict with baggage allowances as they are now.

If you plan to take a machine with you: 1. make sure it is well packed, 2. be very careful with your total weight (clothes and tools, etc.),  3. be aware that what you take home will more than likely be heavier than what you start out with, 4. make sure you do not upset the security ghouls by carrying anything in your hand baggage that could be construed as 'Dangerous'. 

Unless you are on a much better weight allowance than I was on, I think you will be struggling to take a lathe and milling machine with you.  A DRO will only add to the bulk, but if you insist, take a pair of electronic digi verniers that can be adapted as readouts on your machines.

Good luck in your efforts and let us know how you get on, both with the machines and their transport!

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## pkastagehand (Jul 16, 2013)

This has probably been beat to death, but I hear of all the gee-whiz stuff a DRO will do and keep thinking it would be nice to have.  

I keep looking at how much money to equip the mill with 3 axis worth of slides and the device to hook it together and do readout and think manual is still looking pretty good.  

I'm not in production.  Time is not money (for me) it is time; so it takes me a little longer.  So if someone were upgrading and gave me an old unit that was still functional I would install it.  But I don't think I'll be buying a new setup anytime soon.  Maybe after last kid is out of college...

Paul


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## tornitore45 (Jul 16, 2013)

Davewild, you chosed as first project one of the most difficult types of engines.  The look and workmanship looks eccellent, so do not get discouraged, fiddle with the flame licker and see if you can reduce all frictions. The piston must seal but be super polished.

Regardless of your success with this firs project, move forward on a more conventional path of learning
In order of increasing difficulty
Oscillating steam/compreed air
Single Action Steam
Dual action Steam
Two Strokes IC  glow
Two Strokes IC  autoignition
Four Strokes IC  spark
Stirling
Radial  IC

Somebody may argue with the order but this is the one I am following and each step sets a new level of preision requirements.


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## Davewild (Jul 16, 2013)

tornitore45 said:


> Davewild, you chosed as first project one of the most difficult types of engines.  The look and workmanship looks eccellent, so do not get discouraged, fiddle with the flame licker and see if you can reduce all frictions. The piston must seal but be super polished.
> 
> Regardless of your success with this firs project, move forward on a more conventional path of learning
> In order of increasing difficulty
> ...


Thanks everyone, I am now realizing that I probably choose the wrong engine for a starter project,  I want to remake the cylinder but don't have the materials here, I will get this thing to run!!!

Dave


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 17, 2013)

Your engine visually looks pretty good. Have you contacted Jan about timing?  If it is precise and turns over VERY easy you may have a timing issue.  You want the piston absolutely free in the cylinder.  It can actually more gap in the piston/cylinder fit than it can friction.  I've heard of flame lickers running with .004in smaller piston.  What kind of sandpaper do you have?  Google and try to rig up some form of lapping out there on the rig.


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## Davewild (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi all
So I decided to make a small wobbler engine, I done it from my head and not drawings, do any of you work like this, it seems much more difficult. Any way I have a question I don't seem to have any trouble getting external dimensions bang on, it's the internal hole I'm really struggling with, a lot of the time a shaft as example will not fit in a bored hole, I take another minute cut and its to loose, how do you guys measure internal dimensions of bored holes?


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## Mainer (Jul 24, 2013)

It may be easier to make the hole first then make the mating piece to fit. You can ream a hole with a reamer and get a reasonably accurate hole.

It's also a question of how good a fit you need. If you need a "really good" fit, you'll probably need to lap the parts to size. At least, that's what I do. Note that lapping is NOT simply running the parts together with abrasive and hoping for the best. It's a precision machining operation. For an internal hole you'll want an expanding barrel lap, and a ring lap for an external surface. Also some lapping compound, maybe #240, #320, and #600.  You want to leave AT MOST about 0.001" to remove by lapping.  Don't overdo the quantity of lapping compound. When lapping internally, excess compound can contribute to a bell-shaped hole. It's a slow operation, so be patient.


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## Wizard69 (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi Dave


I just dropped in on this thread, a very interesting read to say the least with the focus on portability.  

Before I got to the entry where you indicated that you have purchased your Sherline I was going to suggest going the DIY route.  That is make a small lathe directly suitable for your travels.   The idea being to power it with something commonly on a drilling rig, a drill motor maybe.   Since the motor represents a considerable fraction of the total weight of the machine this might save you some travel difficulties. 

Well it is too late for that suggestion!    It looks like you are off to a good start though.   Don't let the flame licker beat you.   

While the discussion about DROs seems to be over I might suggest that there is a half way solution that might appeal to you.   That is to use linear scales on each axis of interest.   The scales I'm talking about here are the ones that look very similar to digital calipers made for the purpose.   I've also seen guys cut up cheap import digital calipers for this use.  The nice thing here is that the scales are useful without a display / control module.  Here is a sample page: http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Digital-Scale/H8133, there are many importers besides Grizzly.  This group may be of interest too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShumaTech/, there was also a web site: http://www.shumatech.com/ that doesn't work at the moment.  (Hoping that is not a bad sign).  

Now all of that stuff above about Chinese scales, I wouldn't bother unless you where to go all in with a display unit.   DROs really become useful when the display unit can do things for you.   As others have indicated often DROs are of limited use on a lathe.   Well maybe that is the correct way to state it, DROs are more versatile on a mill.


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## Engineeringtech (Jul 29, 2013)

lohring said:


> I agree with dials on the lathe.  I installed scales on my South Bend lathe.  The carriage travel scale has been very useful but the cross slide scale has not.  If the length of a cut is critical, a dial indicator on the carriage will often be fine.  I too learned with dials on a mill.  I would never go back.
> 
> Lohring Miller


Nice installation!   Regarding the question, DRO or manual, I would suggest they put DRO on the mill and leave the lathe manual if they are short on money.


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