# Anodizing..another expirement...larger part this time.



## deere_x475guy (Jul 4, 2010)

Today instead of going the the flywheels on the Siamese Twin I decided to try a part that I will most likely do more of and it is about the biggest part I plan on doing for now. This is just scrape now...many times over prototype.







I put it about 30 minutes ago...it was a bear trying to bring the acid bath from room temp of 84 degrees to 70 but I finally got it there. More pics to come..


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## T70MkIII (Jul 4, 2010)

Can't wait to see the result, Bob.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 5, 2010)

Richard, the results weren't so good. After 3 attempts I did finally get it to take color, but, somewhere along the line I didn't get it clean...touched it with my hand...or something...the finish is very blotchy.







This part takes a lot of current and it was a constant baby sitting job, switching out bottles of frozen water to keep the bath cool. I think this one is going to wait for a redoo untill the weather cools a bit.....we were at 92 today.

I might try some parts off of the tubing bender next before moving on to the any more parts on the Siamese Twin.


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 5, 2010)

It's all part of the learning curve. I'm sure in a few months your parts will be as good as the pro's. Keep at it!!

Steve


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 16, 2010)

Well...I have done several test parts and now I have had 4 good runs in a row. Here is the last one....it's part of the tubing bender I built a couple of years ago.











It's late and I will post more about what I am using and how I did it later.


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 17, 2010)

Looks Good!!

What did you do different that improved results?


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 17, 2010)

Thanks Steve, I am very pleased with it.

I am keeping my temperatures in the anodizing bath between 68f and 72f and am making sure the parts are absolutely clean before I put them in the lye solution and making sure I get a complete rinsing before they go to the next step. It has cooled down some this evening so I am sitting outside the pole barn with another part in right now. 

It's the carrier from the macro slide focusing rail I built for Pam two years ago. It is the top part that slides on the body in the pic below.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Ok..got the carrier assembly anodized.











And now I am ready this morning to anodize the rail. Here are some shots of the process.

First I scrubbed the part in hot soap dish water useing Dawn dish soap and wearing rubber gloves. I wore the rubber gloves all the way up to putting the part in the acid bath. This was done to make sure I didn't touch it and leave finger prints. After scrubbing the part I dipped it into my mix of Lye and distilled water for 15 seconds to etch the surface. The pictures below show how I hooked the part to the rail that will suspend it in the acid bath, dye solution and boiling water. The first picture shows an aluminum wire that I pounded one end flat so that I could screw it into the threaded hole to get a good solid connection.






This photo shows how I am using a second with to help hold the part horizontal. None of my tanks are deep enough to let it hang vertical.






This last shot shows the part suspended in the anodizing bath. The calculations I came up with called for 120.6 minutes in the anodizing bath. I have 9 minutes left before it gets pulled out, rinsed well in cold water and then left in the dye for 30 minutes.

After the dye bath it will be placed in boiling water for 30 minutes to seal it.

I will post more pictues as I progress. Also I will post more about how I am doing the calculations...I am running short on time right now.....


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Well the part has been through the dye process and is not in the sealing tank. I will bring this up to a boil and hold it there for 30 minutes to seal the part. 

Here is a photo of the dye tank and the part suspended in it.






While I am waiting here is a shot of what I am using for a power supply. It's just an ordinarly ATX computer power supply rated at 250 wats. I am using the 12 volt output rated for 10 amps. 

I got the idea from this link:

http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply

My setup isn't nearly as refined as he has done.






Here is a better shot of the ano tank. The two horizontal pipes in the bottom of the tank have holes drilled in them for air bubbling for agitation.. I am using the little airbrush compressor to supply air. The 6061 aluminum plate to the right is the cathode. The negative lead is connected to this. In the upper left corner you will see some aluminum wire shaped in a spiral...this is my method of holding the recycled peanut butter jar of frozen water to cool the bath.






The part is due to come out of the boiling water in about 20 minutes and I will post a follow up pic when it is done.....hoping all went well.....


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 18, 2010)

Looks like things are going very well.
Thanks for the detailed shots and explanations.
I hope to do this someday and I'm learning a lot.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Your welcome Carl, I have having a great time doing it also. The part came out great. I am going to run up to the cabin to get something to eat and will post pics when I get back.


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## Babba (Jul 18, 2010)

For over 3yrs I have been making a selling parts for motorcycles in my home workshop. I never dreamed that I could anodise & dye them in pretty much the same environment as well until I came across Caswell's forum.

Anodising aluminium can be very cheap & very easy if you follow the established rules, all the experimenting has been done before.

Why are you bothering (& ultimately confusing everyone else) with primitive power supplies?

The success of the whole process revolves around a constant current source of power. I'm getting proffessional results from equipment that can be sourced from a home environment but my constant current power source cost me £150 new.

It has paid for itself many times over, I buy my prototype products & clone them at a much cheaper price, no one who's inspected both can claim that mine is inferior.

Battery chargers & PC power supplies aren't worth the time it takes to experiment to get a good anodise that will take dye evenly, all it takes is to follow the established rules & use a constant current source.


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## ksouers (Jul 18, 2010)

Babba,

While I can appreciate your concern, I think your comments are a little off base. Bob is not trying to operate a production shop, but simply wants to anodize a few parts he makes. I too am interested in the process. I have several PC power supplies laying about taking up space, if I don't have to spend 150 GBP (~300 US dollars!) I'm not going to. Furthermore, PC power supplies are hardly "primitive" but quite "intelligent" in being able to adjust the current available depending on demand.

From what I've seen, Bob has not confused the issue at all. He has followed all the established practices that I have read about.

Remember, this is a hobby. It is all about experimentation and making do with what is at hand. Perhaps even recycling items that otherwise might make it to the trash bin.


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## Babba (Jul 18, 2010)

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Babba,
> 
> While I can appreciate your concern, I think your comments are a little off base. Bob is not trying to operate a production shop, but simply wants to anodize a few parts he makes. I too am interested in the process. I have several PC power supplies laying about taking up space, if I don't have to spend 150 GBP (~300 US dollars!) I'm not going to. Furthermore, PC power supplies are hardly "primitive" but quite "intelligent" in being able to adjust the current available depending on demand.
> 
> ...



All the experimenting has been done, why is anyone bothering to experiment any further?

The rules of anodising are established, all the times, temperatures, concentrations etc all exist & all their flexibilities are known & very well documented.

If Bob wants to go back to the beginning & drain a car battery into a Tupperware box & connect up his battery charger/PC power supply in order to anodise his widgets then fair play to him. To some people it's all about experimentation.

However, when it's all about anodising cheaply in a home environment, we shouldn't confuse what's already been tried & tested with our own experimentation.

I never dreamed I could anodise in my home environment, I thought I would always have to pay the proffessionals £umpteen thousands of $ to do it for me. If I happened on this thread whilst in the discovery process I'd still be wasting my time in the shed trying to get an old PC power supply to anodise a part that should be earning me money.

Perhaps Bob works for a proffessional anodising Co' & he's not letting on !


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## ksouers (Jul 18, 2010)

Babba  said:
			
		

> ... why is anyone bothering to experiment any further?



Because we can ;D

Just reading about something in a book or article does not make one an expert on the subject. Reading will not give real experience in applying the knowledge, that takes practice and even making mistakes along the way. We, as humans, often need first hand experience to see what does and does not work. Reading about it is not good enough.

As far as "wasting time" fiddling with a PC power supply, his results look pretty successful to me. He is happy with the results and the effort expended. That's all that counts.

I'm glad that you are making money with your professional anodizing equipment, but this forum is not about setting up production environments. Your comments about "production" and "making money" are simply in the wrong context here. It's about having fun, not making money.


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## Babba (Jul 18, 2010)

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Because we can ;D
> 
> Just reading about something in a book or article does not make one an expert on the subject. Reading will not give real experience in applying the knowledge, that takes practice and even making mistakes along the way. We, as humans, often need first hand experience to see what does and does not work. Reading about it is not good enough.
> 
> ...



You are wrong, you are very wrong. My anodising is not proffessinal, I'm just getting proffessional results by following the established rules. My equipment cost me £peanuts, it's nothing that can't be found in any home environment. The power source is VERY important to any anodising experience, if you choose not to use a constant current power source then every attempt at anodising any size part will be an experiment.

Why is anyone still playing around & experimenting with home anodising, it's all been done before & the results speak for themselve's, they don't wish to make a profit & they actively seek others to follow them.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Why am I not using a $200 dollar plus power supply? Simple...I am not doing 10 to 20 parts a week that you claim you are doing, and I am assuming you are selling your parts....so you should be using the best equipment and setup possible. You also mention in the post below "A simple battery charger / cheap PS set up may work well for occasional one offs after a bit of experimenting", but now your making a big deal of my experimental setup...and BTW, I no longer consider it experimental....my results have been consistant for the last 6 pieces...I do have a method developed for my setup.

And don't go on about how my results could change....because I already know you are right...and you know what....have a look around the Caswell forum and any number of others and you will find shops that suddenly are no longer getting consistent results...with their professional setups....and to solve the problem they are experimenting to find what changed...

Now, with that being all said, I am going to make another post with my last results and next parts that are soon to go into the anodizing tank. I am waiting for the acid bath to cool it down to 70 degrees with my free....non high tech, non professional method.....a peanut butter jaw full of frozen water.. ;D ;D ;D

Oh...and btw....I did change your quote slightly...I fixed your spelling and gramar mistakes....no offense...I make them also... 

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6856.msg73756#msg73756

Quote from message #3.

_I use the Caswell LCD method to anodise 10-20 parts per week & I'm currently enjoying GREAT results.

A simple battery charger / cheap PS set up may work well for occasional one offs after a bit of experimenting but investing in a constant current PS, agitation & something to keep the acids temp constant at 20deg C (68f) & you can look forward to consistent & professional results.

The only failures I have sufferred using the LCD method have been down to too low a temp (+/- 2 deg makes big a difference) & losing the connection during the process by using alu wire instead of titanium.

Give it a go, if you can assemble the kit cheaply enough you have nothing to lose._


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Ok..we go....another succesfully home anodized part.






And the next parts up are:






A 2fer this time....


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## ksouers (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob,
The slide looks great.

Are you going to do other colors, as well?


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

I plan to Kevin, I just haven't made up my mind what yet. I am looking at the colors available through Caswell and few others this evening. I will have the flywheels ready to take pics of in a hour. They are in the dye bath now.


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## Blogwitch (Jul 18, 2010)

> Why is anyone still playing around & experimenting with home anodising, it's all been done before & the results speak for themselve's



I can assure you, in ten years time, people will be saying the same thing about your methods. There are new discoveries every day, by people doing experimentation.

Experimentation is what keeps us all going, if Bob is happy to do it his way, then no one has any right to tell him he should not be doing it his way. 

You can suggest that he could improve his methods, but NEVER tell anyone he is doing it incorrectly if he is obtaining the results he is after.

Why do I manually machine everything rather than going out and buying a CNC machine? 

Because that is what I want to do. It is called personal choice.

Great work BTW Bob.


Bogs


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks John!!!
Stay tuned the flywheels for the Siamese twin are about to come out of the boiling water...


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't know Bob. Those flywheels look so good I would've hesitate to anodize them. :big:


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Well here they are. Lots of screw ups along the way on these but they came out just fine anyway. Now I need to decide what I am going to do the rest of the engine and base in. I might try powdercoating some of the other parts.









Also I need to get some smaller aluminum wire for holding the parts. You can see on each one a hole that is not completely anodized. This is because that's where I had the wire pinched in the holes to hold them and get a good connection.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I don't know Bob. Those flywheels look so good I would've hesitate to anodize them. :big:



Crap Carl......now you tell me ;D.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 18, 2010)

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> Crap Carl......now you tell me ;D.



 Rof} Rof}

Well don't listen to me!

The anodized parts look great too!

Looking forward to learning more about powder coating too. Blaze the trail man.


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## ksouers (Jul 18, 2010)

Very nice, Bob. 
I really like that bronze color, quite different from the usual blacks and reds.


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## SAM in LA (Jul 18, 2010)

Bob,

Great thread.

Your parts are looking real good.

I may have to try this out some day.

Regards,

SAM


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Carl...will do.
Kevin, this was suppose to be black ??? ???
As you can see not even close.....I have read where black is a tough color to come out right. I will probably order some from Caswell as I can see myself using that a lot.


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 18, 2010)

Sam, thanks so much.

My introduction to do this came a little over a year ago when Weston Bye offered to anodize a part I had made. A friend went with me and we spent most of the day there. My intentions were to get anodizing right after that....but...well...you know...things happen. Anyway I have bugged Weston on and off over the past couple weeks and he has been very helpful. I do have one particular web site that Weston pointed me to that I want to share with members here that may not be familiar with it.

http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html

Ron has a nice site and also sells power supplies and chemicals. I can't locate one type of acid recommended after the lye bath so I think I will order some from Ron.


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## ksouers (Jul 18, 2010)

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> Carl...will do.
> Kevin, this was suppose to be black ??? ???
> As you can see not even close.....I have read where black is a tough color to come out right. I will probably order some from Caswell as I can see myself using that a lot.


Oops!

I've read about black being difficult, especially when using Rit dye.


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## stevehuckss396 (Jul 18, 2010)

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> Well here they are.



Them flywheels look very good. . . . for a guy who does it wrong!!!

Haahahhahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## deere_x475guy (Jul 19, 2010)

Thanks Steve...


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 1, 2010)

Just an another update. After struggling with room in the 4 gallon bucket I was using I decided to use a cooler instead. It should heat up less and be easier to cool. Here is what I was using for the anodizing tank:






Here is what I have set up this evening. I have added another cathode and will probably need to add two more runs to the bubble. As you can see there is a lot more room. I picked up 6 more quarts of battery acid and will use about 4 quarts tomorrow and 4 quarts of distilled water when I empty the solution from the smaller tank to the larger and bring the level up. 






Here is the tumbler I am using for final polishing of the parts I want a shinny finish on. I have the cylinder block from the Siamese twin in right now and the gear gauge I built in there also.

Zee the lighter is there for scale 






Here are the parts I hope to do tomorrow. Some will be in black, and I picked up some REIT liquid Scarlett dye I want to try out on the gears.


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## stevehuckss396 (Aug 1, 2010)

I thought about mentioning the cooler. I had planned to do this same thin about 2 years ago with a cooler but I chickened out. I was a little nervous about storing a big vat of acid when not in use.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 1, 2010)

Steve there is definately cause for caution. I have 5 gallon pails that were used for pickles and the lids seal tight. The solution will go in one when I decide to store it for awhile.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 7, 2010)

I finally got the Rit scarlet and the black dye to take last night. The black always came out a bronze color and the scarlet never took well at all. I think getting the votage to stay between 15 and 16 volts and have the amps fall between the range recommended for the surface area helped with this color.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Wow. Those gears look great!


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks Carl...I think I am getting close to being able to make a complete post with all the steps I am using. It was bugging me that these two dyes were giving me trouble and others are able to get them to take fine so I held off. The green and blue seemed to work fine.


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## Babba (Aug 8, 2010)

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> I finally got the Rit scarlet and the black dye to take last night. The black always came out a bronze color and the scarlet never took well at all. I think getting the votage to stay between 15 and 16 volts and have the amps fall between the range recommended for the surface area helped with this color.



The dye isn't taking because the pores aren't deep enough or have formed incorrectly. To get a deep black you need at least 0.75 - 1.0 mil deep pore that has grown correctly. You need to be able to control how the anodise is formed.

In order to control how it grows & by how much it's vitally important that you keep the amps steady, the voltage will rise & fall to give you an indication that the process is going OK but it's the AMPS that are important.

Untill you can control the amps then every part will be differant, you may hit upon a method that gives you a good result but it will ONLY ever be a method for that one part. Keep experimenting in this way & you may be able to judge/guess to get good results quicker but are you considering that your acids & dyes concentrations are constantly changing with every part you attempt, even your cathode is a gradual variable which will screw up your next results & have you scratching your head.

When you have a way of controlling the amps then all the hard work is done before the part hits the baths, when you know what to control & how to control it then any part takes no longer than the time it takes to grow those pores & every part comes out perfect.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 8, 2010)

Babba,
Thanks for your input on this. I am now using a variac for a power supply.





The pc power supply box you see mounted to the top of it is gutted and I have a full wave bridge rectifier mounted to a vary large heatsink inside this. Note that I am only using one transformer out of the gang of 3. It will output around 140 volts and up to 10 amps. The thing is huge and heavy and I will be separating the other two transformers from it soon..


Once I am ready to begin the process I use an anodizing calculator that I downloaded from the net (see sample output below). I input the surface area, after a couple of minutes I get my amp reading that the part is drawing at 15 to 16 volts. In this case it would be 1.8 amps. What I am doing throughout the process now is making small adjustments to the variac to keep the amperage at that initial reading of 1.8 amps throughout the 66 minutes. I read that the voltage must be at least 15 volts to get the pore size correct and the amps control how deep they are. With the battery power supply, and the pc power supply my voltages were always to low, at best maybe 12 volts but the amps were within range...however as you pointed out the amps would drop off and it was a constant recalculating process for the time in the tank. So yes, to get the best possible repeatable results a proper power supply is needed. 







The anodizing bath was first mixed at a 1 to 1 ratio. 6 quarts of battery acid to 6 quarts of distilled water. At this ratio and setting the variac to 15 - 16 volts my amps were always higher than what the calculator called for so I was reducing the time needed in the bath by the percentage the amps were over. Last week I added another 2 quarts of battery acid and that seemed to lower the amperage that the parts are drawing at the 15 - 16 volts enough so that I can go by the calculated time.

I am heading to the shop right now to get this next part in. We have some storms moving in our way so I hope we don't loose power when I am half way through the process. 

Again thanks for you input. BTW what power supply are you using? Does it allow you to set the voltage and amps separately? Do they stay to your setting throughout the process?


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## Kermit (Aug 8, 2010)

A hobby/lab type power supply, on which you can set the amperage to a steady value runs about $100 up to almost $1000. 

It all depends on how many amps you desire. I have a small 32 volt 3 amp supply, which costs about $150. For an output around 8 amps you will pay about twice that or more. Approaching an output of 20 amps will put you way up the pay scale.

A VERY pricey item. If you have gotten good results with your method keep at it. Occasional/hobby use means you are probably there to make tweaks to the settings and will be able to maintain a reasonably steady current flow. I understand what babba is saying, but personally think such a rock steady amp flow is only required for commercial size operations.

As long as you are watching and adjusting as things progress,you will get fairly repeatable results.


Secret admirer,
Kermit


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks Kermit, I have a friend that is into ham radio and he is looking around for a used power supply someone might have laying around...cheap...for now this is working and I have very little invested in it.


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## Babba (Aug 10, 2010)

My power supply is a Skytronic ? ? ? which can output up to 10amps. I'm absolutely hopeless when it comes to Lecktronics so forgive me if I can't be more specific, when I read about technical specs like regulated & ac/dc all I see is #@$$% & @#//*.

I have 2x dials with 2x displays, it's possible to dial in a value for the amps & that then remains constant while the volts do whatever is needed to keep that value steady (& vice-versa with the volts).

It can definately be described as a 'constant current' type power supply but I discovered there are far too many vague definitions & descriptions of the various types of power supplies available during the buying process.

I DO know that it cost me £150, which I consider horrendously expensive for anything with such low numbers but a nephew (who knows about these things) went "wahey" when he saw it & borrows it regularly for various reasons I don't fully understand.

I went through pretty much the same process as you're going through, spent a lot of time fiddling with this & tweaking with that whilst all the time jotting down times & temperatures in as scientific way as I'm capable of. 

All I know is non of it made sense untill I was able to control the amps. Once that was in place everything else began to make sense. I can now work out the surface area & do the calc's, bung the item in the bath & 90mins later I have a perfectly anodised prototype which takes the dye like a child takes sweets.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 10, 2010)

Babba,
Thanks for getting back to me. Just one more question if you don't mind. Are you saying that if you set your amps to 2 and your voltage reads lets say 10. You would not be concerned about the lower voltage? I only ask this because I read someplace that 15 volts is recommended. As I recall, I believe the voltage is responsible for the shape/size of the layer...and I believe the abrasion resistance.


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## Babba (Aug 10, 2010)

deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> Babba,
> Thanks for getting back to me. Just one more question if you don't mind. Are you saying that if you set your amps to 2 and your voltage reads lets say 10. You would not be concerned about the lower voltage? I only ask this because I read someplace that 15 volts is recommended. As I recall, I believe the voltage is responsible for the shape/size of the layer...and I believe the abrasion resistance.



I use a '720 rule' calculator I got from somewhere, I tell it the surface area & desired depth of anodise & it tells me what amps to give it for up to 90mins, it also gives me a peak voltage to expect.

What the volts are doing is an indication of whether you're doing it right, the amps are important let the volts do what they want to maintain the amperage.

I have a part that I do 4of at a time regularly, the calculations are 2.2 amps for 90mins with a peak voltage of 16v, I don't bother to monitor the volts unless a batch goes wrong (rare), but if I did, then the voltage 'might' indicate what was wrong. On the few occasions that it has gone wrong it's been down to acid bath temp or loss of connection, what the volts were doing can often point to what went wrong & when. If all's gone well then 'who cares' what the volts were doing?

I also have read that the voltage is important to the growth of the pore, all I can say is that by the rules I'm following, the LCD 720 one, then if the AMPS are OK & everything else is within the boundaries, then the volts will behave themselve's accordingly.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 10, 2010)

That calculator description sounds familiar. I believe I have it bookmaker on my laptop. I will check when I get home this evening.


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 10, 2010)

Babba,
I think this might be the calculator you are using.







Very similar output to the one I am using.





One thing I hadn't thought of before is the one on the top allows you to input a desired thickness for the coating. That might come in hand sometime.


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## Kermit (Aug 10, 2010)

The simple law for voltage and current.

Volts divided by Resistance(Ohms) equals Current(Amps)

When you desire to keep the Amps steady, then Volts or Resistance or both can change and as long as the 'math' works out the same the Amps will stay "rock steady".

The resistance of the part you are anodizing is constantly changing by small amounts, so, by the mathematic rules. Voltage will have to change to keep the same Amps flowing.

If the resistance goes up the amps would go down - UNLESS the voltage increases enough to offset the change.

V/R = I  That's all these power supplies do. They constantly monitor voltage and amperage and will keep one or the other steady and allow the other to vary to accomplish it.



MORE info:
The acid bath temp and concentration, also the size and spacing of the electrode paddles in relation to the part will have a big effect on how many amps you can push at the low voltages being used.  If you have two feet between the electrodes and a part that is one foot long. The ends of the part will receive more electricity(amps) than the middle of the part. Simply because it is farther away from the electrodes and therefor has more resistance to overcome due to the longer distance to the electrodes.  Likewise, parts with lots of surface area would benefit from an increase of electrode surface being used.  Lower current density on the electrodes than on the part is a good thing(within reason)  

The above is my condensed version of all the tech rules I've read on this subject over the years.
Kermit


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## deere_x475guy (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks Kermit, lots of variables come into play with this and you have helped to pull a few of them out for this thread so others reading it can understand also... My current setup allows me to manually adjust so that I can keep the current steady. I couldn't do that before and while it worked for the most part it was a bit of a guessing game to determine when the anodizing was complete. I tried to pay attention to when the amps started to climb figuring I was at PAR. This didn't always work for me.


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