# Sidney 16 or Does anyone use big lathes here?



## nsfr1206 (Nov 12, 2011)

My neighbor has a 16x40 Sidney for sale. It has herringbone gears and is about 10 feet long. My question is will a lathe this large work ok for small steam and ic engines? It has a round a 14 inch 4 jaw chick on it. Another thing is it's top speed is 562 rpm. Is this too slow? I have posted this elsewhere and get both answers on it as far as speed.


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## Stan (Nov 12, 2011)

If your model engine needs a 18" flywheel, it is not big enough.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 12, 2011)

That size of machine is both too large and too slow for model work.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 12, 2011)

depends on what scale you want to do. also do you plan on taking your models to shows in the future. I hear the old guys complaining about hauling 80 and 100 lb models to show. 
just keep in mind the laws of scaling. Take a model with a two ince fly wheel . Make it a 6 inch fly wheel say the original model wieged two pounds the scaled up version now weighs 54 lbs.
Hmm
Tin


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 12, 2011)

Not gonna build em that big! Can't I do precision work on one this big? I understand that the rpm is a little slow for carbide on a small item.


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## ShedBoy (Nov 12, 2011)

I have a 9 x 36 I think (dam imperial) and it is border line too big for model work but I also do alot of jobbing work so need the room and weight. Big machines require bigger tooling which equates to bigger costs. As Brian said it is too big. I need a smaller machine with more speed to go with my current machine 1500rpm is not enough really small bits. If you can get it for a decent price sell it on and get a smaller machine with tooling.

Brock


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 12, 2011)

Would you use a 5 pound sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack, or perhaps a chainsaw to sharpen your pencil?


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## steamer (Nov 12, 2011)

Well generally I agree it's too big....but mostly because it's so slow

My 12" Logan goes to 2000 which is plenty fast enough.....but the tooling can be expensive

I usually say go for the bigger lathe....but maybe not this big.

Dave


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## Jeremy_BP (Nov 12, 2011)

My opinion is that you can do fine small work on a lathe of that size. The only issue is that top speed. You'll need to be faster.
I've made some of my smallest parts on a 24" cincinatti, but it went up to 2500rpm.


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok. I'll probably pass on it. So what is too big? The way I understand it the size isn't an issue just speed.


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## steamer (Nov 12, 2011)

Yup the old adage is you can do small work on a big lathe , but not big work on a little lathe.


but 500 rpm........geez that's slow.

Dave


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## steamer (Nov 12, 2011)

nsfr1206  said:
			
		

> Ok. I'll probably pass on it. So what is too big? The way I understand it the size isn't an issue just speed.




Well  9" anyway, should be good  but 1500 - 2000 rpm top speed ought to be the low end ....I think.

There are 12" lathes out there that will go that fast.  You could do worse.  5C collets are cheap but the chucks get pricey at that size range though.

Even a SB 9 is a bit slow in that regard at 1500 
What say the rest of you

Dave


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## Sshire (Nov 12, 2011)

As a new, first time lathe owner I'm just beginning to get a sense of feeds and speeds. When is the 2000+ rpm used. Is it because of the small parts diameter?


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## steamer (Nov 12, 2011)

Sshire  said:
			
		

> As a new, first time lathe owner I'm just beginning to get a sense of feeds and speeds. When is the 2000+ rpm used. Is it because of the small parts diameter?



Yes.


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm going to jump in here and offer up my advise. This is not advice from a professional machinists perspective, but from someone who has been machining for about 4 years now. I have built 10 air/steam engines, two gasoline engines, and 4 novelty devices to power with my engines. 90% of the material I work with is less than 1/2" diameter, and 90% of it is either brass or aluminum, with the remaining 10% being cold rolled steel. My lathe is a 9" x 18 Craftex Chinese unit from Busybee tools in Canada. I very seldom use carbides, because of the inability to get good surface finishes. I do occasionally use them when turning steel, but never on brass or aluminum. I sharpen my own HSS lathe cutting tools from 3/8" square blanks. My machine has 6 speeds---115, 210, 350, 550, 970, and 1620. I only use the 115 speed for parting off with an HSS .094" wide parting off tool. I never use the 210, or 350 speeds. I use the 550 for turning heavy cuts on steel, and take my finish passes on steel at 970 RPM. On brass and aluminum I generally do most of my turning at 970 RPM and take a light finish cut at the 1620 RPM. For drilling with a tailstock mounted chuck I use either the 550 or 970 RPM settings depending on the diameter of the drill and the material being drilled. I have only done a very little single point threading, but found that the lowest speed of 115 RPM is still to fast for me to consistently engage the half nuts and prevent a double start thread. -----Brian


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## steamer (Nov 12, 2011)

I think we agree Brian

25 - 2000 rpm or perhaps higher

Most small lathes really prefer HSS.  They usually are not rigid enough for carbide.

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 12, 2011)

well maybe I was taught to be a bit conservative. when I was in tech school we had to calculate speeds and feeds IIRC about 1000 rpm for aluminum 1 in diameter. but then we set the rpm to 5oo. i probably tend to run slow on my south bend lathe 9". 
My 7 x10 has a speed range from 250 -2500 
my little 5" bench lathe 250 - 4000
and the SB I am thinking 60 - 800 or so 
You do have to be careful though large chucks have speed limits run them too fast and ugly things happen. 
Tin


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## lathe nut (Nov 12, 2011)

nsfr1206, if the price is right get it, you can make do, you can do little work on a big lathe but you cannot do big work on a little lathe, course don't take my advise, this is coming from Lathe Nut, I will buy ever lathe I find if the price is right and the wife is in the mood.


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## shred (Nov 12, 2011)

Once you get above 12-14" swing (US measure), then the chucks and such start to require hoists and rigging equipment to change...


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 12, 2011)

Wow. Lots of great advice. And I appreciate every bit of it. :bow:

So if a lathe is hard to thread with at 115 rpm and certainly want one slower than that.


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## Pappy Frank (Nov 14, 2011)

I have two lathes, one is a South Bend that was made in 1928 and originally was a 16 inch swing. Someone put 2 inch riser blocks on it and it now swings 20 inches. It runs on a flat belt and a cone type step pulley and I have rigged a motor on it with an intermediate shaft so I can get the RPM down to 40. Top speed for it is about 600. I use it a lot but hardly ever over 200 rpm. I wish it could go slower. When I get the back gear replaced, and put it on its slowest speed, I have never done the math, but it will be very very slow. 

My second lathe is a 14 X 36 and it is a modern lathe and its slow speed is 70 and top speed is 1200. I use the 70 rpm a lot, and seldom go over 360 rpm. When I do, I have only once gone over 800 rpm in the 6 years I have had it. I wish it could go slower at times, but I have never had need for a faster speed. I could easily still use it if the top speed were in the range you are talking about. 

One thing to consider is that large lathes usually mean larger diameters, and when you get larger diameters it means slower speeds. So sometimes the need for slow speeds is a good thing. You can turn a small diameter part at slow speeds, but you cannot turn a large diameter part at fast speeds.

If the price is good, I would encourage you to grab it up. If you do not like it, you can sell it later. 

I had no real need for my large lathe when I got it, but about two weeks ago I needed to have my flywheel from my pickup reground, and I was able to set it up and do it myself, saving me a lot of money. 

Pappy Frank


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## sncf141r (Nov 15, 2011)

(Hey, I used to have an old pre-Sidney lathe (Sebastian Machine Tool Company), that, from what I read years ago, was at least 100 years old. I found this out from the Sidney archivist. I'll have to dig out old 35mm pics sometime... The name rings a bell, anyway)

Have two lathes - British made 11" did swing x 24", and an Austrian 8" swing x 18??".

Both have their uses. If I had to choose one, it would be a hard choice - depends on other circumstances, like *why* I'd have to choose one over the other. :-\ 

I've had lathes kicking around 40 odd years now; agree slightly bigger is better. While I'd agree that faster is better; rigidity over slop rules. 8)

Your Sidney with herringbone gears is going to be smooth, I'd expect. They were a respected maker. If the price is right, and you have the space and right electrical connections, it might be great.

JohnS.


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## AndyB (Nov 15, 2011)

Hi Brian,

115 revs as the lowest speed, that is really fast!

I am surprised that you don't have a backgear; my old Drummond Ms run 12 speeds from 25 revs to 900 and the Myford S7 has 16 from 27 revs up to 2100 (though you should not run backgear on the two highest speeds).

You may get better finishes at that top speed but it frightens the hell out of me, everything hums like it is trying to take off! I rarely work above 600/700 but then I am chicken :big:

I can't imagine trying to thread at that speed, I would worry that the thread would run up the headstock! :big: :big: :big: :big:

Maybe it is time I got the girls wound up and see what I can do then!

Andy


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## kvom (Nov 15, 2011)

Assuming it's got a 3PH motor that you'd control via a VFD, you could ramp up the speed by 50% or so without doing any harm, assuming the bearings are good. I'd also suggest looking for a small chuck when doing so.

I find turning at 500 rpm works for steel pretty well, although for smaller diameters or drilling that might take some care.

A VFD would also allow slowing down for threading.

If the lathe can hold tolerances pretty well, it could work for you, esp. if the price is right.


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 15, 2011)

I have an RPC. Slowest speed on the lathe is 14 rpm IIRC. Wouldn't need much slower than that. :big:


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## bezalel2000 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hi Brian

There is clearly a consensus here that a lathe for model work needs a wide speed range (slow for threading and fast for the little bits) but little in the way of explanation that would enable you to work out for your self what you might need.



			
				Sshire  said:
			
		

> As a new, first time lathe owner I'm just beginning to get a sense of feeds and speeds. When is the 2000+ rpm used. Is it because of the small parts diameter?



The slow speed for threading is almost obvious - you don't want to crash the tool into the headstock. it takes only 1/2 a second to cut 1 inch of 10 tpi thread at 1000rpm.   

The fast speed, is based on best cutting result for the materiel being cut,
expressed in surface feet per minute (100 SFM for mild steel is the easy one to remember) 

So if the main purpose of the lathe is turning 1/8 inch Mild Steel spindles then a high speed of 3000 rpm would be preferred.

calculated by 
rpm=cutting speed in SFM/ circumference of the spindle in feet

circumference of 1/8" = 0.033 feet
MS cutting speed = 100 SFM
rpm = 100/0.033 = 3300 rpm

Material Average Tool Speed HSS (S.F.M) 
Magnesium              300 
Aluminum, 7075          300 
Aluminum, 6061          280 
Aluminum, 2024          200 
Aluminum, Cast          134 
Brass                  400 
Bronze                 150 
Copper                 100 
Cast Iron (soft)            80 
Cast Iron (hard)           50 
Mild Steel               100 
Cast Steel                80 
Alloy Steels (hard)         40 
Stainless                60 

Bez


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## Maryak (Nov 15, 2011)

Hi Guys,

IMHO it is the low speeds which are far more important for hobby work and small machines. The cutting speeds and feeds listed in most publications are for production work with machines correctly mounted and possessing the necessary rigidity to achieve a good finish. 9 times out of 10 problems with surface finish chatter etc. are overcome by slowing down the speed/feed, (occasionally the reverse is true).

A larger amount of metal removal, (depth of cut), is better achieved by a slower speed and a higher rate of feed. Do the calc if you don't believe me. Again bearing in mind the size of the machine and how it is mounted.

For lathes so fitted it is amazing how much of a model is built using the backgear. With my current lathe I have not yet changed the belt to provide the upper six speeds of the twelve available in 4 years of operation.

Just my thoughts and probably worth what you paid for them.

Best Regards
Bob


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## 8ntsane (Nov 16, 2011)

Hello Guys

Seen this post on the Sidney lathe, and didnt think anyone on this board used such equipment. Now to start with, I will say that I dont build micro tiny parts, small engines like most on this site do.

I do how ever, own and Run a 41 Sidney Lathe. I started out with a 12x37 Busy-Bee lathe that topped out at 1200 rpm, that was yrs ago, back arourd 1984.

The OP, has asked about a 16X Sidney, and the top speed seems to be a issue. The Sidney,s of that size were available with a low & Hi range spindles. The one the OP mentions is the low speed set up.. The hi - speed runs up to roughly 1000 rpm. 

Another thing that is noteable with a Sidney, is they were allso available with 1200, or 1800 rpm motors. I would think the lathe mentioned has the 1200 rpm motor. So, if he wanted a faster spindle speed, he has options. First, change out the motor sheeve, and get up to 1000 rpm. Not fast enough? Use a VFD to bring it up to a higher speed. Or, swap the motor out for a 1800 rpm model.

So this machine is a 16X , there is nothing stoppin him from installing a smaller chuck on that machine. I run 6 to 12 inch on my 14X30 Sidney. The machine can use what ever chuck he see,s fit really. Most likely has a L-1 spindle, so adapting up for any chuck is easy.

Tooling, I dont see any reason why he can use a elcheapo AXA tool post like most of you guys commonly use. I use a AXA with a spacer under it on my Sidney, and a CXA for bigger work. So I dont see why some are telling him the tooling will be expensive. He can use the same stuff you guys do, with a spacer under the tool post of coarse.

The Sidney you are referring to is the Herringbone geared head stock. These puppys are one of the smoothest gear head machines ever made. One word of caution be for yo buy it. Run the mache at all the speeds, and make sure its quiet and smooth. Pull the top cover, to check the gears for missing teeth, chips or any damage. If you get that far with out any issues your looking good.

The Herringbone Sidney is a machine that is built for heavy work, not like most are doing here. But make no mistake about it, That old Sidney will be around making chips long after a import machine that was built today craps out, and is remelted into something else.

If you are only building very small items, maybe the Sidney is too big for you. But in most cases, you can deal with it. The Bigger machine can get good surface finishes, just use HSS cutters in lew of carbide. I would get that machine to run atleast 1000 rpm though.

I have not had a lathe any smaller than a 12X37 @ 1200 rpm, But I will say this, The bigger stuff is more ridgid, and that old saying. You can machine small parts in a large machine, but you cant do large parts in a small .machine.

Making chips since 1984, and Id still perfer the big machines over the tiny not so ridgid machines.


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## f350ca (Nov 16, 2011)

Hi,
Im not a full time model builder, some day hope to have the time, and I've never ran a micro lathe but I've built a few models and done lots of fine work on big machines. Yes the bigger machines are more cumbersome to work around (bending over the apron of my 18 x 80 to watch a 1/4 in boring bar or internal threading gets hard on the back) but you can't beat the rigidity of 7000 pounds of cast iron. 
If you have the room go for it, you can always speed it up by changing pulleys if you need it. You should never have problems with chatter or parting with that machine.
If smaller is beter for modelling why do most want a Bridgeport mill but may not have the space.
Just my thoughts for what they're worth.


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 16, 2011)

Alright folks. I am very thankful for all the replies. I was just over there looking at it and the owner hooked it up to power for the first time in years. Ran it and checked it out and that big old thing is awesome. Power feed in forward and reverse, lots of thread choices, and power slide on the cross slide. The low speed of 14 is SLOOOOOOOWWWWWW. And top speed of 562 is not real fast. But it seems to run real smooth. For some reason the oiler made a big mess on the floor though. The owner bought it at an auction at Mississippi State college and had never hooked it up. Looks like it will take up residence in my shop!!! ;D


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 16, 2011)

BTW, what kinda spindle does this thing have? Its got 6 square head bolts going in toward spindle behind chuck. The bolts are like what the chuck takes to tighten. Can't think of proper term here.


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## lathe nut (Nov 16, 2011)

What, no pictures, you cannot do that to us, come on where is the picture, give it up, hope you get it, I love lathes, Lathe Nut


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 25, 2011)

The man brought the lathe over today and put it in my shop. I hooked it up and ran it. It has a 4 jaw 12 inch chuck on it and it wobbles . Not sure why. He had a chain down between the ways and up behind the chuck. Is there any way he could have put enough side or end pressure on the chuck to bend it or worse, bend the spindle?


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 25, 2011)

> He had a chain down between the ways and up behind the chuck.


probably not the preferred way to move it. 
how bad is the wobble is the chuck possibly a bit loos on the spindle nose
how is it attached?
Tin


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## ShedBoy (Nov 25, 2011)

th_wwp there worth a thousand words. Remove the chuck and run it up see if the register wobbles.

Brock


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 25, 2011)

Think the chuck is a d-1 6 camlock. That make sense? It has 6 half inch square drives behind chuck. Haven't taken it off so don't know what that looks like. And I don't even own a dial indicator. Yet. And the lathe has no tool post. Need to buy a QCTP also.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 25, 2011)

with the d type they are not bolts but cams that lock on cutouts in pins. so loosen everything up remove the chuck check everything clean and remount. 
the way I learned to mount and dis mount was similar to a car wheel 
loosten the cam then return so it catches but not tight work your way around then loosten each one completely. the same with mounting tighten then back off a bit work all of them then tighten them all. 
IIRC I worked with D1 4s
Tin


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 25, 2011)

Just went out to shop and looked at it. And realized this thing has a tailstock on it for a 14 inch lathe. How could I have missed that? Good thing the man is letting me try it before I buy. I have little hope of finding a 16 inch tailstock. Riser blocks anybody? Opinions????


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## bezalel2000 (Nov 26, 2011)

nsfr1206  said:
			
		

> Just went out to shop and looked at it. And realized this thing has a tailstock on it for a 14 inch lathe. How could I have missed that? Good thing the man is letting me try it before I buy. I have little hope of finding a 16 inch tailstock. Riser blocks anybody? Opinions????



That ought to be fine - All you gotta do is design everything to have a taper  :

oh and rig up your lead screw to drive the height adjust on the QCTP

The perfect project for the Christmas break - Just kidding :big:

Bez


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## steamer (Nov 26, 2011)

nsfr1206  said:
			
		

> Just went out to shop and looked at it. And realized this thing has a tailstock on it for a 14 inch lathe. How could I have missed that? Good thing the man is letting me try it before I buy. I have little hope of finding a 16 inch tailstock. Riser blocks anybody? Opinions????




Walk away from the lathe.....would be mine...it seems it's been hacked 12 ways to Sunday.....

Dave


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 27, 2011)

I am going to let a machinist friend look it over next week and see what he thinks. Maybe put a riser in there somewhere. Problem is I would like a good heavy lathe and they are few and far between around here. Don't want to drive many miles after buying one off Ebay and find it's wore out. I suppose I will end up with a Grizzly or some such lathe if I want something larger than my 7x if this one doesn't pan out.


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## MachineTom (Nov 28, 2011)

Don't run away too quickly, check out a few things first. Look at the ID tag, what size does it list, does it state 14/18, that would be a factory dual height machine, then look at the bed/headstock joint does it have a 2" spacer, how about the compound rest is there a block there? If so they can be removed. if not you can go tailstock hunting. It is not that tough, this forum would not be the ideal place, but Practical Machinst antique forum, and the Monarch Forum would be the place to go. The price should change if the tailstock is wrong. A riser for the tailstock could be made, an involved process for someone starting out though.


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 28, 2011)

It is a 16 inch. Built 6/14/44. My friend came over today and is going to try to find a tailstock. Failing that, we will machine one or get rid of lathe.


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## kuhncw (Nov 28, 2011)

I suspect you can get the tailstock issue sorted out. Did you find the reason for the wobble at the chuck? This sounds like a good old machine and worth some investigation.


You might post a photo or two when you have a chance.

Regards

Chuck


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## Tenn_blue59 (Nov 28, 2011)

Just wanted to weigh in on this, since I asked the same questions a while back. I have 2 lathes (actually 3, but 2 that run...). A small 7x14 chinese clone, and a 16"x6' Hendey. 
Had the 7x14 and wanted something bigger. Got the Hendey CHEAP, and that helped. But moving a 6,000 lb machine is an adventure! Been using the Hendey for about a year now. 
I need to preface this by saying I haven't built a model engine yet, but have worked on lots of small parts and fixes. For truely tiny stuff, i still use the small lathe, but as size increases, the Hendey is much more fun to use. For roughing work, it takes MUCH bigger bites - things that would take forever on the little lathe can be done in a few passes - no chatter. 
The Hendey is the old style lathe with speeds from 16 rpm - about 900 - power feed and crossfeed. Also nice to have the big lathe features - like the emergency brake.
Everything is bigger and heavier - chucks weigh 30 pounds or more,, and tooling is bigger and more expensive. I also have a big shop so the footprint wasn't a problem, but if you have limited room, a big lathe takes up big room. Mine is also 3 phase, so needed space for the 10 horse rotary converter.


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## nsfr1206 (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks for the comments! Haven't figured out wobble. Took chuck off today and doesn't look as though spindle is messed up. There was a dirt and such between there. I think the chuck just moved when it was hauled. I ordered my first dial indicator and stand today and we'll know very soon if spindle is ok . 

Tenn-blue, I like to hear stuff like that. I had a rotary phase converter already and although my shop is fairly good sized, it is about full. I have pretty much a complete woodworking shop in there also. I also have a 7x10 and will probably buy the 14 inch bed from LMS to extend it. 10 inches is a little short.


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