# 1/4 scale V8, first project.



## keith5700

Hi all, 
I recently started designing a small petrol V8 engine, as I've allways fancied building one. I discovered this site and read what people were doing, especially Stevehuckss, and decided my plans were rubbish. So I've designed a much more intricate engine, compared to my first attempt, and have been machining for about 6 weeks.

Whilst I have taken pics at every step I won't put all the pictures up, as Steve is doing an superb job of chronicling a V8 build. I will be happy to answer any questions in the future however. This is being built with manual machines only. I think CNC machines are great, but I haven't got one.

Going to try and upload some pics now, of progress to date.


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## agmachado

Hello,

The look is great !!!

Very cool your project... th_wwp

Thank you for share with us!

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## stevehuckss396

Looks like a great start!! Keep the pictures coming!!


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## metalmad

looks fantastic so far, those big end caps are a work of Art :bow: :bow:
will be watching 
Pete


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## gbritnell

Outstanding work!!! Your crank is a work of art. I see you have it drilled for pressure oiling. Are you using any particular engine as a basis for yours?
gbritnell


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## jpeter

Thats looking pretty sweet. What's the bore and stroke?


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## awJCKDup

Great looking start. Please keep us informed on the build, and as many pics as possible. I want a V8, and you guys are setting the bar realllllly high !

John


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## keith5700

Bore is 19mm, just realised I can't actually remember the stroke. Not at work today and everything is on CAD there. It's about 18mm.
George, it's loosly based on Chevy small block, but since starting I've decided I want 4 overhead cams. I'm struggling a bit at the moment though to design the cam/rocker arrangement, so it could well end up with a central cam.
By the way, your gearbox is another step on from my crank. Crank was fairly straightforward, if time consuming, but I think I'd struggle to make those g'box casings. They're incredible!
Cheers.


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## nfk

Amazing start for a first engine! 
Keep the pics coming! :bow:


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## Chaffe

very nice, loving the crank!


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## v8power

Great work i'v just started my v8project


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## agmachado

Hi Keith, is this your name ?

I don't have words !!! :bow:

Maybe one or two... beautiful and wonderful!!! th_wav woohoo1

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## keith5700

Well it's been a while. Looks like I'm not too hot on posting updates. I've been busy in the shed however. Here's how far I've got. 
I've gone away from my CAD drawings and seem to be making it up as I go along, making sketches and calculations on scraps of paper strewn across the bench. But from past experience that's how I work best because the look of the thing is as important as it's function, so I change things all the time to what looks best.

Anyway, some pics, can't believe how big it's going to be.


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## stevehuckss396

Looks great so far!!


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## steamin

Excellent job my man :bow: You sure have gotten a lot accomplished in 6 weeks. Your attention to detail is a great benchmark for a true model maker. I echo all the rest, please keep posting. We do learn so much from each other.


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## metalmad

I really need a V8 :big:
 :bow: :bow:
looking great buddy


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## willburrrr2003

My god that engine is beautiful!!! Very nice attention to detail, quality craftsmanship, fantastic all around!! I will be following the rest of your build with interest!

Regards,


   Will R.  Everett, WA.


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## keith5700

Thanks all. I'm making progress still, but believe it or not I've lost my camera so nothing to post at the moment.
I've just built a small pipe bender and am trying to do an exhaust manifold. 
Not that I'm ready for that, but I got a bit bored of machining so needed a break.
Also I've just set up a small anodising 'plant' ( 2 x plastic buckets and a battery charger)
Initial experiments have worked better than expected so I'll be incorporating some pretty colours on the engine where I can fit them in.

Will show progress when camera turns up.


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## stevehuckss396

I'll be here when you post them.


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## ShedBoy

th_confused0052 WOW that is an awesome looking engine will be watching this one.

Brock


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## keith5700

Ha!, found it.

First pic shows the tube bender I've just finished.
I wanted to do the tightest bends possible in 10mm stainless. They ended up at 16mm inside radius on the bends.
The tubes were filled with low melting point metal before being bent.
The bends are so tight that they still distorted slightly but most of the defects filed out.

The pile of bends is all the trials it took before pulling the proper bends. I started with copper pipe,to get the angles, then unfilled stainless to work out the distance between the turns, then pulled the filled tubes.
I polished them just for the hell of it, I know they'll go blue, etc. when (if) the engine fires up.

The 10mm jig plate was a great help as the pipes could be pushed in and tweaked slightly to get all 4 to line up with the collector.

Just got to make a mirror image set now for the other side!!

The vernier cam pulley was just another trial to see if they will look believable on the engine, although they do actually work. Not sure if the blue looks tacky or not. Maybe try some with a lighter depth of blue, (not so long in the dye after anodising). Wished I'd tried anodising years ago.


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## metalmad

That is just WOW
 :bow: :bow:
   Pete


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## cfellows

I'm blown away by those exhaust headers. What a beautiful job!

Chuck


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## stevehuckss396

What did you use to secure them together?


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## 90LX_Notch

Keith-

This whole thing is mindblowing! The header is unreal. I am also impressed with the anodizing. Any chance of a how to?

Karma away.

Bob


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## Blue_Rock

I've been lurking for months now and your project has flushed me out of the woods, I'm speechless ... almost. Your headers are a work of art, as is the rest of your engine. Keep those pictures coming. Thanks for the inspiration and for sharing. Simon


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## keith5700

Steve, they are just pressed into the collector at the moment, I'm not sure how to fix them. I was actually going to wait until you'd done yours first, and take it from there.
My mate reckons he knows someone who can tig weld hypodermic tubes together, so I'm going to follow that one up too.
This will be one job I won't mind farming out, if the claims of being able to lay perfect 20 thou' fillet welds are true.

Bob, I would be happy to do a how-to on anodising, but I need to play with it a bit more first. Have just got some red dye so I'm going to do a bit today.
Keith.


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## gbritnell

Your headers are outstanding. To get the double bend and still have them in the right place is extremely hard. This is going to be a beautiful piece of engineering. I watch each day for the next installment. 
gbritnell


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## Lakc

Wonderful job, especially on the collector. :bow:
If you weld them, you will need both the flange and collector ends secured against warping, then tacked. Preheating will definately help, and a good plan to quickly work opposite sides of the joints to minimize distortion.


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## keith5700

Well it looks at the moment that tig welding the exhaust flanges may be more of a problem than I thought.

However I wanted to see what the manifold looked like on the block, before I made the 2nd manifold.
I decided to make the individual flanges and then countersink the rear faces. The pipes could be pushed through, flushed off and then flared out into the countersink. Bolting the flanges to the heads should keep the pipes rigid, especially if I left the end of the pipes a couple of thou' proud of the flanges.

The hardest bit would be flaring the pipe over without it pushing back through the flange.
I decided to mock everything up and then cast it all in place with low melting point metal.

I have no pics of the flaring operation as I'm not used to documenting my work and keep forgetting to pick the camera up.
I've also roughed out a couple of cam covers.

The exhaust flanges look slightly out of proportion (too large) but as it took 8 hours solid to make 8 of them, I'm going to stick with them.


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## RManley

th_confused0052

amazing work - nothing else to add, just amazing


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## AssassinXCV

Incredible. Hope to see more.


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## keith5700

Time for a quick update.
Not got too much more done. I wasted a lot of time on an induction system, which sounded good in theory but it didn't look very nice, so it was scrapped.
I then went for a plenum type system, with a twin throttle body. It still doesn't look how I imagined, but it's not too bad so it'll do for now.
I'm playing with different surface finishes all the time, so this has different textures on various parts. I think I'll try shot peening the cam covers next, and anodise them black, with a centre polished cover for the plug grommets.

I ought to get onwith the internals really, but I want to make sure it's going to look the part first.

By the way, getting the second set of headers to fit right and be a mirror image of the first set was a nightmare.
Went through 18 feet of tube to get both sets right!


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## gbritnell

Any chance you could show us how you created the parts for your beautiful exhaust system?


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## metalmad

That is just Stunning :bow: :bow:
really really exceptional
nice and big too by the look of her!!
Pete


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## mgbrv8

That is a exceptional engine. 

David


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## ShedBoy

:bow: :bow: :bow:
That is a fantastic looking engine.
Brock


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## Lakc

Looks really good. I personally want to see the valve actuation.


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## ozzie46

*Amazing :bow: :bow: :bow:


 Ron*


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## keith5700

Thanks all.
George, I don't appear to have any more pics of doing the exhaust than what's already been posted.
I know at the start I wanted the tightest bends possible from 10mm tube, and I made the bender to suit.
One essential part is the protractor for measuring the angle of the pull.
Next essential was to clamp the tube tight between the rollers before pulling. This was done by having the wheel on the handle on an eccentric axle, so all the clearance could be taken out.

The handle wheel runs on ball races, which reduced the stretching of the tubes slightly.

The thick jig plate was invaluable for holding the tubes rigidly in place for alignment and for the final bits of tweaking/bending.

Lastly, the tubes needed to be filled with low melting point metal before bending. I tried some bends without this but they were awful.

Having done all this the outer radii of the bent tubes were still a bit knobbly, and each tube had to be filed round again after bending, which was the most time consuming part really.

Inevitably, the tighter the radius, the harder it is to get to look right, so the question for anyone wanting to do something similar is, how tight do you want to go?

Looking at my finished exhaust it would look better if the bends were even tighter, it still looks a bit clumsy in real life, but I think if I went much tighter than I've got, then the outer radius would be starting to split open with the stretching.

Lakc, I've drawn up the valve gear but I'm not 100% happy with it. The only doubt I've got is if oil managed to get under the bucket tappets and form a hydraulic lock on startup, as there's nowhere for it to drain away at present.
I'll try and get a pic posted, although the only way I can think to do it, in my non-computerized brain, is to print it off the cad and photograph it.

Cheers


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## lescad

Hi 
Have you tried "cute pdf writer"? (freeware) It installs as a virtual printer,just select it from the printer drop down dialouge, and you can save almost anything as a pdf file.

Cheers

Les


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## trumpy81

keith5700  said:
			
		

> Lakc, I've drawn up the valve gear but I'm not 100% happy with it. The only doubt I've got is if oil managed to get under the bucket tappets and form a hydraulic lock on startup, as there's nowhere for it to drain away at present.
> 
> I'll try and get a pic posted, although the only way I can think to do it, in my non-computerized brain, is to print it off the cad and photograph it.



Keith, excellent engine!!

For the hydraulic problem, machine a groove down one side of each bucket with a corresponding notch on the bottom. That way if any oil is trapped it can flow up and out of the groove.

To grab a photo of your CAD screen simply hit the 'prtscr' key (to the right of the F12 Key) on your keyboard then open Paint (start/all programs/accessories) and hit 'crtl + v'. Save the pic and your done.

What type of finish or process have you used on the Manifold, Intake etc.. ?


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## ewok

Wow ! this is looking great ! great to see you went down the quadcam road it will sound unreal! 

keep up the great work!


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## kustomkb

Man, what a stunner!

Some beautiful engineering and machining there Keith.


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## agmachado

Hi Keith,

How is your project? 

I need to see more pictures!!! th_wwp

:bow:

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## keith5700

Hello there.
Not much progress the last couple of weeks. Had a horrible mouth abscess so not felt like doing much. It's nearly cleared up so I'm back on it today. 
Thanks for your interest.


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## Smithers

Hi Keith,
I've being lurking and admiring a lot of really first class builds on here over the last couple of years, yours is up there with the best. Absolutely fantastic workmanship and eye for detail. Andrew


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## keith5700

Long overdue update:-

I've been messing around with surface finishes, and outside bits, rather than making pistons etc. but that's the way I work, and it all has to get done eventually, so..

The cam covers have come out weird, but I think I like them. They are alloy, glass bead blasted, then anodised, and dipped in black dye for only about 5 seconds. They have a sort of velvet look to them, although the finish is very hard.
The inlet manifold is blasted with a bigger diameter glass bead.
The water pump pulley is polished, anodised and dyed black for about 2 seconds.
The block is peened with 170 grade steel shot.
Throttle body bits are anodised and dyed various colours.
Throttle body is small glass bead peened and anodised, with no dye. Anodising seems to make the finish darker if surface is glass peened.

Some pics, hope you like...
Sawing the discs for the throttle body







Shaving bits off here and there with the dividing head in compound angle mode


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## keith5700

Steve, sorry I noticed you've just put your final pics up. I would have waited a few days if I'd seen yours first.
Apologies again. Yours looks great by the way.
Keith.


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## stevehuckss396

keith5700  said:
			
		

> Steve, sorry I noticed you've just put your final pics up. I would have waited a few days if I'd seen yours first.
> Apologies again. Yours looks great by the way.
> Keith.



No need to apologise. If you have updates, my all means post them. 

The cam covers look fine. Loving it!!


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## Lakc

I like that finish, looking real good.


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## trumpy81

GDay All,

Keith, that is one beautiful looking engine. The blasting and anodising look superb!

It would look right at home in a 33-34 Ford Phaeton if ya ask me.

I can't wait to see it finished and hear it roar to life.


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## ozzie46

Another truly amazing project. :bow: :bow: :bow:

 Maybe in another lifetime I will be able to make a V-8.  :big: :big: :big:

 Ron


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## AssassinXCV

So, are you going to put this in a go-kart or something? You'd be tearing up the streets with that. 

Maybe replace the engine in an ATV. 

Awesome, just awesome.


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## keith5700

Well, it's been a while. Been busy on other things. Managed to get a few bits done, mainly on the belt runs, spring tensioner, etc. Then I started the oil pump. The miniature Aeroquip fittings came out ok. The braided hose is 5mm dia. cycle hydraulic hose.
The pump seems to be a bit of a sticking point at the moment. I can't seem to make much headway. Everything is so small, and I keep mucking it up. Anyway, It'll get done soon and I can start on the internals.

I used the internals of a small motor for the alternator. It should generate electricity, but whether it'll be enough to be any use remains to be seen.

Some up to date pics....


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## Ramon

Keith, 
I have only just become aware of your project and would like to say how blown away I am by it .
It's brilliant, just absolutely breath takingly brilliant - even my wife agrees and shes a hard one to impress  I simply can't get over your speed of build with the quality produced either. You must be incredibly pleased with the result.

To be able to see work like this is total confirmation of just how valuable a forum can be to us lesser mortals. 

Thank you for sharing it, you're an inspiration :bow: :bow: :bow:

Regards - Ramon


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## blighty

to coin a phrase from my teenagers......... that's sick!

cant wait to see it running.


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## ///

Awesome stuff, love the anodising.


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## Lakc

Those baby AN fittings are just too cool. ;D


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## pcw

people with your skills are dangerous for the comon people and schould be locked away. preferbly in my workshop and you schould be punished by making at least one engine each month. you would be fed three times a day and allowed one hour off to mow my lawn............ th_wav

just kidding ofcourse.
that is some serious work of art you are making there.
Pascal


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## trumpy81

GDay All,

Keith I just gotta ask, where does the fuel feed into?

There doesn't seem to be any provision for it in the butterfly block, so how do you plan on feeding this beast?

Are the holes in the intake manifold a clue or .... ???

Can't wait to see this baby finished ;D


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## keith5700

Thanks for replies. All comments welcome, even constructive criticising ones. Any bits look slightly odd?
Personally I don't like the crank pulley. Looks like it came out of a meccano box.

Trumpy, the plan is to fuel inject it. I want to make 2 small injectors and hide them in the vee of the engine block. They will fire upwards through the base of the inlet manifold and feed 4 inlets each. 
I haven't done mega amounts of research into this at the moment, but this is what I'd like to do.

If it turns out to be too complex then I'll have to scrap the top plenum idea and go back to carbs, maybe 2 or 4, depending on what looks best.

Still working on the oil pump. Hoping to give it a trial today, if I can sort out a quick inlet connection for it.

Cheers.


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## nds213

Keith,

This looks simply amazing! I cannot believe you were able to get the range of surface finishes on one model, definitely adds the professional touch!

I am curious about what type of mill and lathe you have. More pictures too! I wish you had some more towards the beginning of the build when you were doing the block, it's just amazing!

-Nathan


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## steamer

Ramon  said:
			
		

> Keith,
> I have only just become aware of your project and would like to say how blown away I am by it .
> It's brilliant, just absolutely breath takingly brilliant - even my wife agrees and shes a hard one to impress  I simply can't get over your speed of build with the quality produced either. You must be incredibly pleased with the result.
> 
> To be able to see work like this is total confirmation of just how valuable a forum can be to us lesser mortals.
> 
> Thank you for sharing it, you're an inspiration :bow: :bow: :bow:
> 
> Regards - Ramon





Isn't it though!  Great Work Keith!

Dave


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## t.l.a.r. eng

keith5700  said:
			
		

> Thanks for replies. All comments welcome, even constructive criticising ones. Any bits look slightly odd?
> Personally I don't like the crank pulley. Looks like it came out of a meccano box.



It sort of looks as if the crank pulley was installed without the damper behind it.
Just my opinion, but a beautiful robust looking engine like this just looks as if it deserves a manly sized damper behind the pulley. May even help with crank and belt life?


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## keith5700

Another belated update.

I've been messing with the oil pump but eventually got it to what I thought would work. I cobbled it up to some pipework and gave it a whirl with the drill. It seemed to pump a reasonable volume of oil, so I rigged up a pressure gauge and tried again. 200psi! I suppose that's the power of hydraulics.
I then put a bleed valve in and ran it at 60psi. There still seemed to be a good oil flow, so, that'll do for that.

I then stripped it and anodised it, and made my common mistake of getting carried away with the dyes. 
Still, it doesn't look bad enough to warrant doing it again so I'll stick with it for now.

Then I drilled the block for some oilways, and made the screw on filter. This will be working but will probably just ouse a cobalt magnet to take the ferrous stuff out.

The pipe from the filter to the pump took more hours to make than I dare mention, but it was just about worth it.
The bends are really tight again, like the exhaust, and needed a bender making, and use of the low melting point alloy filler material.

I was fed up one day so I anodised the sump just for the hell of it, but it came out really well, much better than expected. and much better than the blue dye which doesn't seem to be working very well.

Next job is to make some more metal pipes and banjo fittings for getting the oil from the head to the block and the other head.

Someone asked what machines I had. Well I have an old manual Bridgeport, which is great, and a really old Union lathe, which is crap. Some pics of it at the end, with my incredibly untidy workshop. Believe it or not I know exactly where everything is!


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## ozzie46

My Lord!!!!! That is absolutely *gorgeous*! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
  You,sir,are an artist. Makes me feel like throwing my whole shop in the dump. :big: :big:


  Ron


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## steamer

I'd say something if I could find the words.....how's this?

 th_confused0052


Your shop is cleaner than mine at the moment....looking for a rusty axe to chop my hands off with....

 :bow: :bow: :bow:


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## gbritnell

Phenomenal looking engine. Everything is finished to a T. I can't wait for each installment to see what other piece of jewelry you've hung on the engine.
gbritnell


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## hobby

You do,
Amazing....amazing, work.

You pay attention to detail, which gives model engineering its flavor.
That is what stands out to me in this thread, the time and patience you have to take to chase the details, that is superb model engineering.

Just as the others who do the same chasing of finer details, you guys are excellent engineers, and inspirators.

That phrase "chasing the finer details" just came to me, as I was writing this, what it literally means is, the details can be overlooked and not bother doing them, is easy, to get a project done, but to go the extra steps to do the detail work, is like choosing to chase after the detailing, it means putting forth greater effort to make a model complete. 
 ......something along those lines...

Keep up the great work.


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## dsquire

keith5700

As you close in on the finish line the finer details all seem to stand out even more. How you address each of them is amazing. Thanks for letting us look over your shoulder and enjoy the build with you. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


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## ttrikalin

This is just superb. 

Unfortunately for me, and a credit to you, Anastasia (spouse) was not (speechless). I was showing her photos from your thread, keith, and she just said to me "Poor fella, what are you doing with your little machines -- You'll never even approach this... You'd better stop this hobby before you get too frustrated..." (in Greek it sounds better... even funny...)

Bravo!

take care, 
tom in MA


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## Admiral_dk

Hi Keith

I do not know how to express my admiration in a proper fashion to your superb work - so let me just say that I can't wait to see how you do the internal parts !!!!

The last picture of your workshop made me a bit curious seeing a Danish Nilfisk G70 vacuumcleaner - are you from South Africa ? - the only other contry I know of that they where sold ....


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## keith5700

Thanks for the replies, they spur me on to aim higher all the time. I'm still on a steep learning curve. 12 months ago I wouldn't have thought it was possible to make something like this. And if I hadn't seen Steve's V8 and George's gearbox then I wouldn't be anywhere near the standard I'm at now.
Hopefully this build will encourage others to get to the next level.

At the end of the day I'm just a bloke in a shed with a few old machines.

Admiral, I can't quite remember where the Nilfisk came from. I've had it years. I'm in the UK.

All, I will try and post more machining pics rather than the finished bits all the time. Although the end bits are nice and pretty, it's not actually much help in seeing how they were created.

Thanks again.

Milling the oil filter mount....






Making the banjo fittings......











Squaring off the oil pipes whilst still full of low melting point alloy.....


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## hobby

keith5700  said:
			
		

> Hopefully this build will encourage others to get to the next level.
> 
> All, I will try and post more machining pics rather than the finished bits all the time. Although the end bits are nice and pretty, it's not actually much help in seeing how they were created.



Thankyou.


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## agmachado

Hi Keith,

I don't have words to say... your work is really incredible!!!

One question: Is it possible to buy this drawings ? I would like to buy! 

:bow:

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## Maxine

Awesome work!


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## ChrisB

Simply, incredible.

Hard to put it any other way really, such amazing work, and yes it is a great inspiration. Truly wonderful to see.

One day, one day. I have to tell myself that or I may break down.


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## keith5700

Alexandre, you are welcome to any drawings I have, but I don't work rigidly to my drawings. I'll draw so much of a part and then start machining, and I'll do little tweaks as I go along. My drawing file for the engine is just a mess of bits and bobs, and sketches and hand drawings etc.
I only get 1/2 hour at lunchtimes to design and draw, as I haven't got my own CAD system at home, so it's al a bit of a rush job. 
Anyway, you are welcome to anything I have, but I would only use it as a guide to design your own engine. Certainly the drawings are nowhere near complete enough to work to, and I know I will never have time to complete them properly.


Some pics I just found:-

Machining the water pump housing....


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## ShedBoy

WOW :bow: :bow:

Brock


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## 2CYL4STROKE

This is so beautiful piece of art


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## agmachado

Hi Keith,

I understand you... Let me help you to document your project. My workshop is not complete yet... I have only a small lathe and some tools, gradually I will buy a small mill and other tools to build my first I.C. engine... but now I would like to make something and maybe I could create the models in a CAD system and after, the drawings of each part.

I can start from your sketches or drawings and slowly we go clarifying the possible doubts. I can use SolidWorks 2010, because I have more facility to use.

Would be a pleasure help on this project.

The posted pictures are very cool !!!

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## LongRat

Great to hear you are in the UK. Your engine is looking more incredible by the day. I really hope you are planning to exhibit it at some of the UK shows.
May I ask where you get the low melting point alloy?


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## Brian Thomas

This thread is just too much to take in. Very nice work.


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## keith5700

Sorry about my slow responses, I get sidetracked all the time with other jobs.
Longrat, I acquired the alloy from work years ago, no-one can remember where it came from. It is available on line, but it looks quite expensive.

I've made the flywheel and ring gear. As I couldn't fit my original flywheel design in, due to the closeness of the headers, I designed a smaller one. I want this engine to have a slow tickover, and have a realistic overrun, so I needed a heavy flywheel, which the original was. With the small diameter of this one I made it out of tungsten alloy, which is very heavy. I think it's about 2.5x heavier than steel.
Before anyone asks, I don't remember how I got it, but it's been sat around for years waiting for a use.

It was horrible to machine, blunting the carbide lathe tools, and snapping drills. But it feels great when spinning on the crank. The pattern in the middle is for a starter drive before I get the proper electric start made.







Next pic is my lash up to bore out the camshaft bearing/seal holders.






This is a pic from today showing it's not all shiney bits and glamour. I've got bits of stuff all over the place at the moment. I have no overall plan,so I'm going in all directions at the same time.






This shows pickup pipe from sump to oil filter.






I've finished the pistons and made 4 liners so far. Need to figure out how the finish bore the liners, my lathe won't hold a thou' over 1.5".






Today I've been 'o' ringing the heads as I hate gaskets. The only gaskets I will use will be the head to block joint, as there's too many holes to ring.


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## suprspooky

Hi Keith,

I'm a new member and just wanted to say how incredible the Engine is , I've done a little machine work with a Bridgeport and it is astonishing to see such intricate work being done on a non-CNC machine. Truly amazing!

Have you thought of using a Brake Wheel Cylinder Hone to finish your liner bores?

Your humble admirer,

Dave


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## keith5700

Time for an update I think...
Been trying to sort out the cams and valvegear, and it's been doing my head in.
Think I'll make a vee twin next time!

I hogged the cams out on the rotary table, using cuts at 5 degree intervals, then blended the flats in with a file.
They didn't look too bad but I wasn't 100% happy with them, so I decided to grind the profiles to get them spot on.

After hardening the cams I started making a makeshift copy grinder attachment for the lathe.
This seemed to take forever, but the results were worth it.

I made a full size cam lobe and then designed the linkage to move at 1/4 movement.

Some pics of the grinder, coplete with novel belt tensioner (weight hanging off a bearing race)





















This is part of the full size cam follower, which is 4 x the diameter of the grinding wheel





Machining a valve






Valve components





Cams, before and after grinding






Fuel injector from Fiat Punto


----------



## keith5700

The valves may look a bit unusual. This is my solution to the problem of creating a hydraulic oil lock under a conventional bucket type follower. The valve stem is also the sliding part of the follower. The tops of the valves are screwed on after the springs are installed.

The fuel injector is quite small, and rated at about 20 hp per injector. I'm hoping one injector will run this engine. It came apart ok, and the coil is useable, if I can get some wires soldered onto it, after cutting the massive connector off.

The injector orifice is 18 thou' diameter.
Rather than trying to work out what orifice I needed, I decided to see what the smallest hole I could drill was. 
I bought some solid carbide circuit board drills, and tried to drill some silver steel (drill rod)
The smallest practical hole on my slow spinning lathe was 10 thou'

The drills worked perfectly, and the holes were spot on.
Took about 1/2 hour to get 2mm depth though.

More pics to follow on injector design later...

Dave, yes I will get hold of a cylinder hone and have a play with it.


----------



## Mosey

Keith,
As I learn more and increase my skills, I like to think I'm making progress up the ladder. Your engine has just shown that I am apparently much lower on the ladder than I imagined. Your work is spectacular! Keep it coming. If this thing sounds like I expect from the pictures, they will take me away quietly.
Thanks for sharing.
Mosey


----------



## gbritnell

The extra work on the cam grinder paid off. The cam looks great and with it being hardened it should last forever. Novel idea on the valve setup. I'll keep that in mind.
gbritnell


----------



## LongRat

Yes, I love that valve idea. When you say you made a full-size cam lobe, how exactly did you do that? Normally when people make these scale reducing copy grinders they use a commercial cam to copy.


----------



## keith5700

LongRat  said:
			
		

> Yes, I love that valve idea. When you say you made a full-size cam lobe, how exactly did you do that? Normally when people make these scale reducing copy grinders they use a commercial cam to copy.



My first idea was to copy a commercial cam, and I had a Chevy V8 cam cut up ready to mount in the machine.
Then it suddenly struck me that it wasn't going to work, because the Chevy cam goes through a 1.6:1 ratio increase, on the rocker arm, before it opens the valve.
My cam pushes straight on the tappet, so there is no increase.

So basically the lift from the Chevy cam is 1:1.6 too small, relative to it's base circle diameter.

I went back to the cam I'd drawn up, with the help of CamCalc, and just scaled that up 4x. This is a free online cam profile calculator, which gives lift figures at various angles.
The lift figures are of course the same figures which you would move the milling table when cutting a cam in a series of flats, using the rotary table method.

I will reserve judgement on the valve idea until I see it working, or not.
The only downside I can see at the moment is that there's no way to adjust the cam/follower clearance.
The initial setting will be fine as the tops of the valves will be cut to length. When/if the clearances increase, due to wear, etc. then it gets a bit tricky to reduce the gap.
I'm still pondering this bit, before I actually fit them.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

The tappet clearance will be adjusted just like any other bucket follower. Put shim washers between the follower and the valve stem, and reassemble. If you didn't see this as a option initially, it might not have been obvious to leave some extra clearance, so that a shim is required and allow you to enlarge the gap by fitting a thinner shim. I like the concept. Even though it makes for heavier valves, I doubt you'll be running fast enough to have problems with float. Camcalc from modelenginenews.org?

It will be interesting to see the injector.

Greg


----------



## keith5700

Greg, yes, the obvious method is to shim between the valve and follower. As I've been pondering it though I've been considering how I'm going to get small washers of, say, 1 and 2 thou' thickness.
The answer is, of course, set the valves to use a 20 thou' washer from the start, and then work from there in the future. Bit of brain fade on my part I'm afraid.

Yes, CamCalc was on that site, but I'm unable to open it now. Don't know if it still exists?

And as you say, the weight of the valve will not bother me. I want a low revving slogger. The top speed is of no interest to me really. My goal is to get it to tick over at a really stable 800-1000rpm?
Time will tell. That may be complete cobblers.

I'm starting the injector at the weekend. I'm also interested to see it evolve. I'll try and get a drawing up here, in case anyone has any thoughts before I start cutting metal.

Cheers, Keith


----------



## crankshafter

Keith.
If you need small dia. shims ask at a shop where they servicing dieselengine injectors ;D or I can send you some.
And here is a link to the CamCalk:http://modelenginenews.org/design/CamTable.html

CS.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks crankshafter, but I'll need the shims to be small washers, 6mm od by 3mm id by 20 thou' thick nominally.

Here is an assembly drawing of my proposed injector. The blue bit is the original coil, turned down a bit, and the red thing is the pintle. All the rest is new. It's about 28mm long overall.
Fuel will go in and under the coil, up inside the coil and through to the centre of the magnet, then down into the pintle.

The magnet thing is threaded into the outer cap so I can fine tune the gap between it and the pintle.
There is a spring, not shown, which pushes the pintle down to close the injector.

Second pic shows the pintle sealing end.


----------



## keith5700

Right, the injector is now finished.

The trickiest part was trying to get some wires soldered onto the coil.
The original coil was turned down a bit on the o/d, and this left 2 coil wire ends sitting flush to
the outer surface.
I had to cut away a bit of the plastic, under the microscope, to reveal enough wire to 
solder to.
If I make any more injectors I will wind my own coil. It will be a lot easier, and smaller too.

As I only need one or two injectors, and they will be hidden, the size is not important, apart from the height.
This injector is about half the length of the original, but about the same on diameter.

The other hard bit was making the orifice plate. I managed to snap 4 x carbide drills, .010" dia. 
My test drilling went straight through some 2mm plate, but this plate is 3mm. I got to 2.8mm then snapped the drills
trying to get deeper. I gave up in the end and thinned the plate a little.

The orifice plate was then hardened and polished flat, finishing with 3000 grit paper. Hopefully it will seal on the pintle ok.

The injector clicks away merrily under power, so I now need some high pressure pump setup to test the sealing, and the spray pattern.

I thought about using methylated spirit as the test liquid. Any better suggestions welcome.


----------



## LongRat

Being somwhat more polar than petrol I would think the surface tension properties of meths would be very different. I think it would be a safer bet to test with the actual fuel you will use. Very nice work on the injector by the way. I wonder though whether the injector will work properly passing such a small amount of fuel, I would have thought 1 of these injectors for the engine would have been more than enough?


----------



## keith5700

Not much to report.
Had a bit of time off to get some other jobs done.

Managed to get all the valve components done and sorted all the shim washers out for the tappet clearances.
Then I started some more machining on the valve covers, to get some clearance for the oil feed pipes, but managed to put the cutter through the side of one of them. That was when I decided to have a break.

I've now made 2 new covers, which look a lot better than the old ones, so everything turned out ok.

Here's a couple of up to date pics, taken in a small light cube, which look loads better than just sat on the bench with a flash gun.


----------



## gadabout

Oh My G0........!
You're not from this planet are you?

in awe
Mark


----------



## ozzie46

gadabout  said:
			
		

> Oh My G0........!
> You're not from this planet are you?
> 
> in awe
> Mark



  I'll second that !!

 Ron


----------



## LongRat

Utterly sensational.


----------



## rhitee93

Amazing!  :bow:


----------



## ShedBoy

Speechless :bow: :bow: :bow:


----------



## ronkh

I'll put in a milder word then the first one I used when I saw those pics that come up once I logged in .

"Bugger me that's amazing."

I've just picked my jaw up from the floor.
I also showed my 16 year old son and he asked "Is that a real one"?
You have my deepest regards,

Ron.


----------



## Smithers

Absolutely incredibe, can't stop looking at it :bow: :bow: :bow:

Andrew


----------



## Mosey

First build?
6 weeks?




I think he has the hang of it.


----------



## dgjessing

Mosey  said:
			
		

> I think he has the hang of it.



LOL 

Yeah, I'd say so - fantastic :bow:


----------



## Lakc

keith5700  said:
			
		

> I thought about using methylated spirit as the test liquid. Any better suggestions welcome.



If you plan on running it on gasoline, then Viscor seems to be the proper test fluid.

Some people use plain mineral spirits. If you dont plan on doing the math and actual flow testing, if your just trying to see that it works, that would work just fine. Just be careful with anything flammable.

Cant wait to hear this thing run.


----------



## dsage

All I can say is WOW !!

If it wasn't for the top view of the valve train I'd say we'd all been had because the last two pictures look like the output from a CD program. Your finish work is amazing and the light cube is doing a nice job.

I think someone asked before but I'll ask again. How do you get the nice satin finish especially on the (what appears to be) anodized coloured pieces. I use super fine glass beads for plain aluminum but it never looks that good.

Amazing.....

Will you be bringing it to any shows?

Sage


----------



## keith5700

Thanks all.
The satin finish on the cam covers was only arrived at after numerous trials with bits of ally in the blast cabinet and the anodizing tub.

The final method used on the covers was firstly to blend all the edges in with fine foam backed sanding pads, then polish on the buffing wheel.
Then into the hand cabinets for a blast of fine glass, then a blast of 170 steel shot, at low pressure, say, 16psi.

The surface is then rubbed with a rag, just to remove any sharp sticky-out bits.

Then degrease, and 30 seconds in the caustic soda bath.
Then a minute in the nitric acid, just in case there is any iron residue left from the peening.

Then anodise for an hour, both covers at the same time, so they match.

Wash in filtered water and then into black dye for about 20 secs. Then quick wash, before any dye left in the corners can stain those bits darker.

Then 10 mins in the boiling de-ionised water to seal the dye in.

Sorry, I wish I could say it was all a piece of cake and only took 5 mins!


Just making a new plenum chamber for the intake. Decided I don't like the one on it at the moment, it's a bit square. Looks like an elongated shoe box.

Really must get on with the internals and stop mucking about with the pretty bits.

Keith.


----------



## kye

Will the toothed belt you use to drive the cams cause any problems when it comes time to properly time the thing? id imagine the teeth would mean you can only rotate the cams X degrees at a time and if you need the position to be say 0.9X your going to run into trouble. 

how is this little problem overcome???

also keith, truly beautiful work!!!!!!!!! if seeing images of this engine dosnt inspire more people to start model engineering i really dont know what could. :bow:

cheers

Mackye.


----------



## keith5700

Mackye, the pulleys on the cams have +/-15 degrees adjustment built in. The 4 bolts run in slots on the pulleys.
Cheers.


----------



## LongRat

I really liked the way you did the pulleys. In reality they must be extremely small!
They have a passing resemblance to some of the nicest full-size camshaft pulleys on the market (HKS slide cam pulleys).







Thanks for the process tips on the finishing.
I have been experimenting myself and not using the nitric acid stage. I think I might be compromising a little on the result because of that.


----------



## gadabout

keith,
 How do you plan to "run" the injector/s, are you going to use a o2 sensor , maf and com etc?
thanks
Mark


----------



## keith5700

Longrat, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the nitric acid stage. I only did it with the cam covers as there was too much work gone into them to balls it up at the last moment, and as I'd used the steel shot to peen them.
We shot peen a lot of titanium at work, and most of these components get a nitric acid dip afterwards, or a glass bead decontamination.
I didn't want to use the glass afterwards as it makes the surface too porous for anodising, hence the steel shot stage, to 'seal' the surface.
It makes for a super finish after dying, but it shows fingermarks up something terrible, and is therefore unpractical for an engine.

Most of the other anodised bits on the engine haven't had the acid dip, or the caustic soda for that matter. I mostly degrease with washing up liquid, and then straight into the anodising tank.
My only tip would be once the part has gone into the anodising tank, don't let it ever dry out until you've finished the hot water sealing step

Mark, I haven't thought too much yet about the injector control. I am familiar with setting up stand alone injection ecu's and when I get that far, if I haven't had a brainwave I'll just buy a Megasquirt or similar and control it with that. I'll use a Map sensor, in case I get bored in the future and supercharge it, but won't bother with o2 sensor


----------



## gadabout

Keoth, 
 sounds like you have it all sorted out mentally anyway regarding the injection, I am really enjoying this and can't wait for more updates! especially the injection control.

in admiration
Mark


----------



## keith5700

Still can't quite get the idea of multiple carbs out of my head.
Made a new plenum last week but still not 100% happy with it.

Some random pics:-
















Injection mould for the plug caps......





















small fittings for fuel system.....


----------



## Mosey

4 Twin Weber DOE's??? Bitchin!

Whoops! DOE means D (doppio- double) O (orizontale-horizontal) etc. right? Would they be DVE? doppio verticale?
How about some help from our Italian friends?

I'm probably way off base here, but look up "Inglese" Weber carburators to see some fantastic units, including their fuel injection systems. The will fit right on your big-bore American engine.


----------



## dsquire

Keith

Are my eyes seeing what I think they are seeing or are they playing tricks on me? Dam. that is good work. Thanks for letting us look over your shoulder.

Cheers 

Don


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Keith,
Incredible work on your engine. Your detailing is amazing. I really like those mini AN fittings. I sure could use something like that for the radial I'm building. Do you have a source for them or are they home made? Even if they're home made what are you using for the braided line?
gbritnell


----------



## Swifty

Keith,

That engine is absolutely amazing, I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that I could come anywhere near your skill.

Paul.


----------



## keith5700

Thank you for your continued comments.

George, I made the AN fittings. the larger ones for the oil pump are made to seal on the tubing similar to the full sized ones, ie the conical bit on the fitting goes up the plastic bore, and the nut screws on to the outer braid to lock it on.

The tubing is 5mm o/d flexy pipe for cycle hydraulic brake lines. These lines come with a banjo fitting already on, but it's massive.

The smaller fitting is a bit different. The tubing is copper tube, 3/32" o/d. The end is swaged and the blue AN nut locks the swage onto whatever fitting it's going on. The braid is from the 5mm cycle line, with the inner plastic pulled out. The braid can then be stretched to reduce it's diameter from 5mm to nearly 3.5mm.
This slides over the copper tube, and the red AN nut locks the braid onto the copper.

The anodising is crap on the fittings and I've just realised that the ally I've been using is the free machining stuff.
I'll try some more with normal ally.

The red nut on the small fitting isn't long enough really, I think I've altered the drawing already.

I'll print some drawings off today and take a photo of them tonite if I get chance.

Cheers, Keith.


----------



## keith5700

This is the drawing of the smaller fitting, which is a 1/4 scale version of a 6AN fitting, the usual size for a full sized fuel line.


----------



## gbritnell

Thanks so much for the drawing and picture.
gbritnell


----------



## ddmckee54

Keith:

I think I'm missing something here. I understand how you're using the blue AN fitting as a compression nut to lock the flared end of the copper tube onto the male fitting, but I can't see how the red AN fitting is locking the braid over the copper tube. Is it just acting as a collar to cover the end of the braid? If not what am I missing, how does it lock the braid on the tube?

Confused in Iowa,
Don


----------



## Henry

I am wordless: your work, your attention to the details, the way that you solve problems, are astonishing :bow:.
If in any moment you want to do a CAD model, plans, analysis or a few renders realistic I think that I could help you with that.
I am working almost everyday with Rhinoceros, Bongo, Autodesk Inventor, Vray and Maxwell renders.


----------



## keith5700

Sorry, just been on hols for a week.

Don, on the large AN fittings the lock nut squashes the liner and outer braid onto a tapered alloy inner, similar to full sized practice.
On the small ones, pictured above there wasn't room for this, so I went down the nut and flare route. When the nut has tightened down on the flare the braid is slid over.The red nut has to be slid over the braid first, then the braid is slid over the copper tube.
I initially accepted that it would just be a cosmetic collar, and that's fine with me, but when screwing the red nut on it does indeed lock the braid to the blue fitting.
It may be that the inevitable frayed ends of the braid get mangled up it the thread slightly and jam themselves into the joint. 
Anyway, however it works it does seem to lock ok. I've not figured out how to get a fitting on the other end of the tube yet though!

Mosey, thanks for the Weber link.

Henry, thanks for the offer, I'll bear it in mind.

Cheers.


----------



## keith5700

Blimey, doesn't time fly?
Some more pics and an update.
I've been finishing the liners and pistons etc. so the internals are just about done.
I then decided I had to have some inlet pipes similar to some full sized ones I had on my old Chevy motor.

Not really a job for a manual mill, but I thought I'd give it a go.

It's going ok so far........


----------



## NickG

Just found this and can't believe what I am seeing! Absolutely incredible skill. :bow:


----------



## keith5700

Finished one side. 
The other side will have to wait a bit till my blisters heal up!


----------



## stevehuckss396

HOLY CRAP!!


----------



## arnoldb

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> HOLY CRAP!!


  Couldn't put it better myself! 

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## metalmad

you took the words right out of my mouth Steve.
awesome, just awesome :bow: :bow:
Pete


----------



## steamer

Humina humina humina th_confused0052

OK....tell us about the passages.....please :bow:

Dave


----------



## vcutajar

OMG, this is really depressing. From now on I am going to collect butterflies instead. ;D

Jokes apart, that is really awesome. Please tell us how you did that.

Vince


----------



## kustomkb

That's pretty amazing Keith!

How do you keep track of the depths and step-overs for something like that?

How long does a piece like that take you?

A time lapse video of that being made would be so cool.

Awesome!!


----------



## dsquire

That is nothing short of amazing.

Cheers 

Don


----------



## keith5700

You're all too kind.

Hope these drawings make some sense. I used a ball nosed cutter, and worked out the x,y and z measurements on the cad. The other variable was the dividing head angle. It started off veryslow but I soon got into the swing of it.
I reckon30 hours to make one set of pipes. 
The other side will take about 20 hours at a guess.

About 15 sheets of drawings in total. I must be nuts!


----------



## keith5700

To go with the inlet pipes I also need a new inlet manifold and plenum chamber.
I kicked myself first for all the wasted work on the existing ones, and then got on with it.

I try and use the dividing head wherever possible these days. It's ideal for these sort of jobs with odd angles allover the place......


----------



## Tin Falcon

Truly amazing work . You have set a new standard for first builds. a v-8 is not for the faint of heart or self trained novice. You definitely have more than a little shop experience. You are an artist my man.
Tin


----------



## keith5700

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Truly amazing work . You have set a new standard for first builds. a v-8 is not for the faint of heart or self trained novice. You definitely have more than a little shop experience. You are an artist my man.
> Tin



Hi, yes I have a bit of shop experience, but I am 95% self taught.
I have been meaning to clarify the title of this thread. It should be called 'first engine project', not 'first project'
as in the first time I've ever made anything at all.

Cheers.


----------



## Tin Falcon

Most peoples first engine is a wobbler or a kit build.
WOW
Tin


----------



## kustomkb

> About 15 sheets of drawings in total. I must be nuts!



I'd say brilliant! but I guess being a little nuts never hurt.

Thanks for the insight. Still way over my head though.


----------



## keith5700

Some random photos....then I reckon I'm fully up to date.

When I was trial fitting the rods recently I got so frustrated messing about with the split bearing shells that I decided to rivet them to the rods and caps. I used some 1/16" copper tube so it's nice and soft if any touches the journals. A few of the rivets wouldn't seal up fully after peening the ends over, so I filled them with epoxy resin.

The piston pins are hardened silver steel tubes with ptfe buttons pressed in, as per some full sized practice, rather than using locking washers etc.








Full set of pistons, liners, rings, pins and rods ready to go.






Some of the special tools/jigs made for this project so far.






The intake pipes fitted with new plenum and new inlet manifold. Just got to make a set for the other side.


----------



## Tin Falcon

A work of art indeed. 
tin


----------



## Henry

I can look at this post with my mouth closed, my jaw is on the floor, some real engines look a like crap if you compare with this one at scale.
I can not wait to hear it running!!


----------



## LongRat

That is an ungodly level of skill to make those inlet pipes like that. I am massively impressed.
All I can say is that I look forward to being able to do things like that when I have a couple of decades more experience under my belt. Please don't tell me you are 25.


----------



## kustomkb

Amazing, if it weren't for the mag base, you'd never know.

Keith, have you got any pictures of your non-engine projects?


----------



## RManley

Totally amazing, that has to be one of the best looking and most convincing models i've seen. 

 :bow: This is what I aspire to.

Rob.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

The mechanicals are looking excellent. How is the EFI coming along?

Greg


----------



## doubletop

Rather than lurk, I'll front up and say this is truly amazing _(just saying that doesn't seem to do it justice)_

Pete


----------



## keith5700

Longrat, I'll be 23 next birthday, and I've had my lathe and miller for nearly a year now! ;D

(53 really)

KustomKB, I've spent too many years messing around with cars before getting down to some proper machining.

My last 2 projects were, a 16" binocular telescope, and a 1/8th scale helicopter.....




































Greg, I got the injector working dry, but it didn't want to work with full fuel pressure. I left it then as I still wasn't sure whether to go EFI or multi carbs. After making the inlet pipes I'm now committed to injection so I'll be back on it soon.

Keith.


----------



## ShedBoy

:bow: :bow: :bow: 

Nothing more to say, speechless.
Brock


----------



## gbritnell

After seeing the work on your engine I would expect nothing less with the work on your rotor mechanism and landing gear. Truly outstanding! I don't know much about telescopes but what I do see is magnificent.
gbritnell


----------



## steamer

Keith

Please do post about the EFI!

Dave


----------



## kustomkb

If somebody showed me the close up picture of the rotor, I would have said it was CGI.

Perfect.


----------



## sandman

did you make the blades yourself on the helicopter? is there a video on youtube yet of the helicopter running?


----------



## camnefdt

any more updates?


----------



## ELM6061

Would not have believed it if I had not seen it, that is simply outstanding work. After seeing that helicopter, do you plan to add a transmission, diff etc to that engine and put it into a car ?

Amazing stuff.

Eddie


----------



## robcas631

Doubt I could create that in my lifetime.


----------



## keith5700

Well, nothing to report really. I got a bit bored with it after finishing those inlet pipes. they were the hardest things I've ever made, and I'm glad I did them, but everything else seems like a bit of an anti-climax now.
Obviously I need to get the engine running at some point but can't be bothered with it at the moment.

Playing with the telescope now the nights are drawing in.

Cheers, Keith


----------



## LongRat

I'm sure the fuel injection will offer up some proper challenges.  I'm looking forward to seeing how you tackle that.


----------



## Henry

LongRat said:


> I'm sure the fuel injection will offer up some proper challenges.  I'm looking forward to seeing how you tackle that.


Also will be great to hear some noise for that jewel!


----------



## The NewGuy

th_confused0052 My God......This is mind boggling for me.
   I haven't started a first build yet, and will probably be embarrassed when I show up with some cheesy oscillating steamer. 

   This is a truly amazing piece of work! Can't wait to hear this thing run.

Jordan


----------



## crankincraig

WOW , I am truely at a loss for words. 

 amazing!!!!!!  ( jaw still on floor )


----------



## keith5700

Some pics to bring me up to date:-

Awkward counterboring op on water outlet...







Valve assemblies gapped and ready to fit....






Tool for screwing in valve assemblies...






Valves fitted in head..






The valve assemblies are sealed into the head on a ptfe washer.
This means though that they can't really be torqued up tightly to lock them in.So I'm using a hardened collet type thing which is bolted down and cuts into a small bit of the guide, and will stop them undoing.
Hope this is clear from the pic.


----------



## keith5700

Water pump impeller machining on the rotary table











Water pump parts






i've tested the pump, and it does work, but I couldn't call it a very fast flow.
It's fine at, say, 2000rpm+ but below that it's a bit of a dribble.
Trouble is most of the time it will be below that speed.

I'd try a gear pump next time.

Crank, rods,pistons, rings and liners finally in.


----------



## lee9966

Good to see more posts, really beautiful work.  I have to keep reminding myself how small this is, the detail tricks me.

Lee


----------



## Lesmo

Subject: Be prepared to be astonished.



I have just emailed the following, complete with a picture a of your masterpiece and a link to your build, to all of my buddies.  


Whether you have any interest in model engineering or not, this is well worth looking at, if only to see what it is possible for one man to achieve.  

The further you get through this build of a model V8 engine, the more incredible it becomes, I have never before witnessed such skill and craftsmanship, absolutely mind-blowing. Think I will give in and take up flower arranging instead.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f31/1-4-scale-v8-first-project-13548/

Cheers 

Les  (lesmo)


----------



## propclock

This is depressing. I was proud of my Hoglet and other engines but this work makes me think I am in the stone age.
The finish is amazing and the shop pictures show it was done in a mortals environment.
Do you use Caswell dyes for you anodizing? 
Words fail me. absolutely fabulous.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks for replying...
Luc, there seems to be as many pics of impellers out there where the paddles continue to the middle, as there are like mine.
When I've got time I'll try the other type.

Propclock, the anodising dyes are from Gateros Plating, in the UK.


The camshafts are now nearly installed...






Trying to time the camshafts. Setting the vernier pulleys was a pain, but it was nice to have some adjustment between teeth centres...


----------



## bronson

Well i just spent the last two days reading through this thread and i was totally amazed at the quality of work detail that you achieved using manual machines, good work. There are so many awesome machinists on this site.


----------



## keith5700

Luc, the water pump is the type where the inlet is into the centre of the impeller, see pic.






Some more pics, this is a simple water pipe for joining the water outlets from the block.....






...which fits here.....






Latest underneath view...


----------



## lee9966

This just makes me drool 

I need to go back and see how you made those beautiful exh pipes

Lee


----------



## G91

my first post on this great site and im going to use it to say howdy to everyone and tell you how much i've enjoyed following this just amazing piece of craftsmanship,im just blown away by this and all the other builds on this site.Retired years ago..mid 90's.. as an automotive master tech,no longer valid though...things have changed...i hear they run on eelec.tricity now? ,and i've been cnc machining for the last 12 years...and i gotta tell you this is the most inspiring thing i've seen in a long time,i luv the way
you have been flexable with the design challenges and willing to stop and go in another direction to reach perfection,this is what all great artist do and you sir certainly are one....that manifold would be a challenge on a cnc, i would not have thought it possible on a manual....im always humbled by great machinist...must be alot of them here from what i've seen...just luv it...thanks,Kev


----------



## Art K

Keith I am amazed at what you are doing manually on this engine, I have a Tormach mill and I couldn't do that. Chalk it up to different life experiences. about your water pump problem isn't the solution to make the pump go faster ie. larger drive pulley.

Art


----------



## keith5700

Thank you, all comments gratefully recieved, even if I don't reply straight back.
Art, I will run it as is firstly. It may be that gearing up the pump 30% may be enough. However, it may need 10x more flow, in which case a different pump will be required, so I'll try it first.

Bringing myself up to date now. Missed this photo showing the spray on head gasket and ptfe cylinder liner gaskets. The ptfe will crush up 4 thou with the heads on, so time will tell if they stand up to running.
I was planning on using full head gaskets, but there was no room for water bores in the new inlet manifold, so the plan is to rely on the cylinder cooling to cool the heads too.  To make this work better though I wanted the head to contact the block without any insulation between.

Please don't copy this idea until I've tried it, it may be rubbish.






Exhaust header flange. More pics later on this..





Spark plug caps, polyurethane mouldings. Not managed to cast a bubble free one yet!






I decided to try an cast the dizzy caps at work. We have some hard polyurethane stuff which looks perfect for the job. Turned out to be more difficult than I thought.
This is the mould..






And this is the result so far. I need to re-design the mould and inject the poly under pressure,(syringe).






Actually I'm not too bothered with the bubbles as I don't really like these shaped dizzy caps on the end of the heads. I'll try and draw up a  side mounted ht lead version.






Thought I'd try them for looks though...






Got bored with the caps so had a go at a spark plug.











I found some ceramic tube on ebay, 3.5 o/d and 10mm long. This is pushed in to the hot end and the rest is ptfe tube. Can't really afford the macor, although that would be ideal.Cut the M6 thread with a die but the pitch was half a thread out in 20mm so won't go in the head.
Need to threadcut these then.
Also got no mechanical way of keeping the electrode in so need some high temp adhesive. 
Given up for the day!


----------



## gbritnell

Keith, 
Here's what I do to retain my center electrodes. My plugs are 14-32 and use Teflon as the complete insulator. When making the insulator I thread the upper end 3-48 for about .100. The electrode has a threaded brass cap soldered to it and is screwed into the insulator. I never had a problem with just pressing the electrode through an undersized hole in the Teflon but I thought this way  would have added safety. Attached is a drawing of my plug design.
gbritnell 

View attachment 4 CYL OHV SHT N.pdf


----------



## AssassinXCV

Props to you and your machining capabilities. Very motivating to beginning and experienced machinists alike.

Looking at your Valve Components (Post 87 page 9) I noticed I came up with the same setup for my 8 cyl radial engine. I was wondering what diameter the rod is and where you would suggest finding suitable springs, or home made with spring steel quenched and tempered? I have 3/8" dia valve head (1/4" big stem) valves and I have yet to find or make springs.

Ian


----------



## keith5700

George, thanks for your drawing. I'm going to re-design my plug and see if I can get some sort of bush soldered to the end. High temp adhesive isn't going to work very well in ptfe I suspect.
You are more organised than me looking at your drawing!

Ian, the valve heads are 8mm dia, and the stem big dia is 1/4".  
I happened to have the springs already, but they originally came from Entex Springs in Nottingham, UK. Whereabouts are you?

I would be wary of giving you the exact spec at the moment as I have no idea if they will be strong enough for the job.
Valves take 1.3kg (2.9lbs) to just start to open. I suspect the valves are going to bounce at high rpm but I'd rather start off
too soft than too hard.
Cheers.


----------



## keith5700

Just taken some full view pics as a lot has change since the last ones.

It doesn't look much different to last time really, but nearly all the front is new, as well as bits and bobs elsewhere.


----------



## rythmnbls

Those full view pics remind me of publicity shots of F1 engines published by the likes of Ferrari or BMW, simply exquisite.

Regards,


Steve.


----------



## camnefdt

hi keith

would love to see/hear this beauty running!!  hows the build coming?


----------



## keith5700

Hello strangers!
For the last 6 weeks I've been hoping to post some news on how the engine sounds when it's running, but I'm still struggling to get it to start.
Note this is with a simple Walbro carb and not the injection.
I figured that if it won't run anyway then there's no point spending 6 months on the injection system.

So, I wired up the ignition system, or 'bodged' is a better word and fitted the surface discharge plugs.
Then spent 2 weeks over Xmas trying to get it to run.

I can honestly say I never got a single bang out of it the whole time. This is on petrol, propane and even Easy Start.

Eventually I decided it had to be the spark plugs which were the problem.

The Powerspark ignition system is quite handy in that if the plugs aren't firing then it shows up on it's display.

With the plugs on the bench they sparked fine, but I already knew that it is harder to fire them once they are under pressure.
So I made a small pressure tester from some clear acrylic bar.
The upshot was that the plugs wouldn't fire over about 20psi. During testing I knew the cylinders were generating about 60psi during cranking.











Then I made a 'normal' type spark plug, like George Britnell described in an earlier reply.
This managed about 35psi, whatever the gap was set to, or wherever the spark energy was set to on the Powerspark.

I'm guessing that when fuel is added then the spark can jump easier than in dry air? otherwisw there's no point carrying on.

I'm just making 8 more plugs at the moment.

Took a week out and made a big wing sump tho, just to keep my interest up!


----------



## trumpy81

Keith, that is disappointing for sure. But keep at it, you'll crack it sooner or later.

Any chance of running glow plugs and methanol/nitro? Or maybe ditching the Powerspark for something else? You can't beat a transistor assisted Kettering System 

What version of Powerspark are you running?

What's that noise I hear in the background Keith, it sounds like a real motor .... lol


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

Sounds more like a weak ignition coil.


----------



## vcutajar

Keep at it Keith.  I am sure that eventually you will manage to get it to run.  Looking forward to hear it rumble.

Vince


----------



## alihureiby

amazing :bow:


----------



## keith5700

The ignition system is Powerspark Rci-200. This is their twin cylinder version. I reckoned if it will run a twin cylinder 2-stroke at 30000rpm then it would be fine for mine. I think now that I should have gone a bit more basic just to get the engine running, as this is another unknown really, but then again it should be more than up to the job.

Another unknown is the crappy carb I've fitted. The donor assured me it came off a running 50cc engine. Even if it's not 100% suitable I would have thought I'd have got a few pops and bangs at least by now.

Poor old engine looking a bit bedraggled:-





Ignition set up with 2 x cheapo coils





New spark plugs, gapped at 20 thou'





If anyone knows for sure that any part of this set up is rubbish then I'm quite prepared to junk any of it and seek alternatives. Apart from the engine!


----------



## keith5700

Luc, I've had a vacuum gauge on it. This was in place of the carb, not from a manifold tap with the carb installed. It pulled just over 2"hg, which is 3-4psi, at around 1000rpm.
I realise a 50cc V8 won't pull anything like the vacuum a single cylinder 50cc would, but I don't know if that vacuum will pull any fuel through that carb.
Or if that's a normal vacuum for this size of engine.
Then again, it won't even bang once with an ether based fuel, which leads me to think the problem is ignition based.


----------



## trumpy81

Keith, for starters that carb looks way too big for this engine. A rule of thumb is that the venturi size should be roughly equal to the size of a single intake valve.The reason for that is because there is only one intake valve open at any given point in time.

Luc's suggestion of a wet plug test is also a good indicator, but I suggest you flood the tip of a plug with a drop of motor oil, enough that it covers both electrodes. If the plug still sparks whilst it is flooded with oil then it is definitely not ignition problems, except for timing perhaps.

What are the coils you are using?

They look to be a good small size for model engines. I might try one of those myself.


----------



## Lakc

Sometimes life was easier back in the days of points. 
If you loose spark at that little pressure, Your either short of ignition energy (coil size, coil primary voltage) or short of insulation and the spark is finding an easier way home. Swap the coils out if you can, use a big old fashioned oil filled automotive type.


----------



## trumpy81

Keith, looking at the first photograph again, I think your cam timing may be a little off. It could be just the angle or parallax error on my part, but cylinder 1 looks OK, but cylinders 3,5 & 7 look to be off a little, particularly cylinder 7. Cylinder 7 appears to have almost 180 degrees of separation but this could just be my interpretation of the photo. Might be worth checking though?


----------



## trumpy81

Luc, I don't quite understand what you mean?


----------



## keith5700

Ok. 3 or 4 psi is vacuum not positive pressure.
Cam timing is spot on, I must have checked that 20 times, each time hoping to find something amiss, but have not.
Lobe separation is 110, inlet full open 106 after tdc.
I swapped the plug centre electrodes tonite to copper. They were steel, but no change.
The power spark keeps going into sulk mode, even with the plugs on the bench.
With full sized plugs it fires them fine. I put some 6k resistors in series with my plugs to copy the full sized ones, but no difference.
I,m ready to junk the power spark and get some points set up, and a big fat coil.
Meanwhile I'll look for a smaller bore carb too. Maybe a small rc plane one?
Thanks, Keith.


----------



## trumpy81

keith5700 said:


> Ok. 3 or 4 psi is vacuum not positive pressure.
> Cam timing is spot on, I must have checked that 20 times, each time hoping to find something amiss, but have not.
> Lobe separation is 110, inlet full open 106 after tdc.
> I swapped the plug centre electrodes tonite to copper. They were steel, but no change.
> The power spark keeps going into sulk mode, even with the plugs on the bench.
> With full sized plugs it fires them fine. I put some 6k resistors in series with my plugs to copy the full sized ones, but no difference.
> I,m ready to junk the power spark and get some points set up, and a big fat coil.
> Meanwhile I'll look for a smaller bore carb too. Maybe a small rc plane one?
> Thanks, Keith.



Thanks Keith, I guess it's just the way I am looking at the cams in the photo, which is what I suspected.

There's no reason you can't make a temporary carb. Use a sewing needle for the main jet and a simple barrel as the throttle. Don't forget to include a proper venturi in the barrel though. It doesn't need to be fancy as long as it meters fuel. I can do a plan for a simple carb if you like.

If the Powerspark is indicating problems then maybe points is the way to go, or at least another ignition module. The coils should be OK though, a simple test would be to wire them straight to a battery and simply touch the - negative lead to the terminal quickly and watch for corresponding sparks from the plug. You may need to reduce the spark gap a little when in use though.

Using copper for the electrode should have indicated whether or not it's the insulation breaking down, or it could indicate that there is too much resistance in the electrode, given that it is a very long electrode. I would think that it would be unlikely, but anything is possible ... lol


----------



## trumpy81

canadianhorsepower said:


> the firing order if like a GM is
> 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
> knowing that the cam is 2;1 ratio with the crank
> so it fires the fisrt 4 ( 1-8-4-3) ten start all over
> with ( 6-5-7-2) in other word take a cam shaft data for the firts
> four cylinder and off set it for the next4 by 180 degree and your in business.
> how can I explain this in a simple way:idea:
> if you would use a piece sign (two finger) and your cam lobe would point
> at 10:00 and 2:00 for number 1 cylinder then the 5TH cylinder cam
> would point at 8;00 and 4:00 180 degree apart
> this goes for a 4 bagner also
> hope I wrote it properly:fan:



Luc, if I understand you correctly, then what you say is true.

However, I was referring to the lobe separation between the intake and exhaust cam lobes of cylinder 7 (the last cylinder on the right of the photo), I thought the photo showed them to be at 180degrees apart and not 110 degrees as they should be.

It's OK though as Keith has checked this and all appears to be correct. It is just the way that I am viewing and interpreting the photo.


----------



## trumpy81

Luc, that is completely untrue in regards to the capacitor. The purpose of a capacitor is too suppress the arcing across a set of points. It has nothing to do with the actual operation of a basic ignition system. 

BTW I was not offended by your statements.

Luc, parlez-vous français?


----------



## Lakc

trumpy81 said:


> Luc, that is completely untrue in regards to the capacitor. The purpose of a capacitor is too suppress the arcing across a set of points. It has nothing to do with the actual operation of a basic ignition system.
> 
> BTW I was not offended by your statements.
> 
> Luc, parlez-vous français?



Yes, but any primary energy used to sustain the arc at the points does not contribute to inducing the energy you need in the secondary (spark plug) side.



> With full sized plugs it fires them fine. I put some 6k resistors in  series with my plugs to copy the full sized ones, but no difference.


The extra distance between the electrode and shell in the full size plug adds a ton of dielectric strength. Its possible, or even probable, that your spark is finding an easier path somewhere along the plug. 
What material are you using for an insulator in the plug?


----------



## trumpy81

Jeff, you are correct, but that is not sufficient to prevent the coil from firing. We are simply testing for operation of the coil which, depending upon the coil itself, should operate down to as little as 5v with a corresponding decrease in spark intensity. The absence of a capacitor affects this in no way, so the statement that it will not work without a capacitor is false.


----------



## trumpy81

Obviously Luc, you have never tried what I suggested. Please don't take my word for it, walk out to your car and try it yourself. Disconnect the coil completely from the vehicles wiring first then add your own wires to the positive and negative terminals of the battery and the coil. Touch the negative to and take it away from the battery terminal. It works doesn't it?

Nobody said anything about fine tuning, I merely suggested that Keith test the coils for operation, nothing more. Please read and understand what is written before making comments.


----------



## steam58

the coil worked for me then i did that


----------



## trumpy81

Thank you Steam58. It confirmed that the coil was working correct?


----------



## keith5700

Lakc, the insulator material in the plug is plain PTFE. The plug bore is 3.5mm and the centre electrode is 1mm, so that gives 1.25mm, or .050" of insulation inside the plug. I have wondered myself if the spark energy is going through the ptfe inside the plug, out of site.
I have had the ignition running in total darkness to try and spot any sparking/earthing problems, but have never seen anything.

It would certainly explain where the voltage is going, if it is earthing inside the plug, but doesn't really help with a solution, unless those machineable ceramics have a higher dielectric strength than ptfe. I'll have a look.
Cheers.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Alot of people here including myself have good luck with Corian counter top material. See if there is a cabinet shop near you that would be willing to give you a scrap piece of white.


----------



## Lakc

Macor does seem to be the material of choice but at $70+/foot for 1/4" I am not getting to play with it anytime soon. 
If you have a timing light with an inductive pickup, or want to make an inductive pickup, it may tell you if the spark is actually going through the ignition wire or finding ground back inside the coil.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks Steve, I forgot about that stuff. I'll try and ebay a chunk.
Jeff, Thinking about it the timing light does go off when the spark dies. I need to try some different coils maybe?
My mate's coming round tonite with a Chevy HEi dizzy. Going to see if I can pirate that for bits.
Keith.


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

keith5700 said:


> Thinking about it the timing light does go off when the spark dies.


 
If using an induction type timing light, the light won't trigger for two reasons, either the secondary is grounded or there is no voltage output from the coil.

What happens when you shrink the plug gap to .015?  Then under pressure?

What happens if you try a standard plug under pressure?

Having made plugs with questionable insulator materials, some fire inside and can't be seen. Work great on the bench, but they won't run the engine.

Electrical diagnosis is just a matter of process of elimination.


----------



## Bynne

Just on a side note,
PTFE dielectric constant 2.1
Sintered Alumina dielectric constant 10

Sintered Alumina is usually the insulator material for spark plugs.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks for replies. It all gets absorbed into the brain-box, even if I forget to reply to specific points.
I certainly will try the standard plug under pressure, when I can sort a suitable tap out.
My current thinking is that the coils are crap. They were no-name ones of ebay, a bit cheaper than the Powerspark ones.

I have the Chevy distributor and will be stripping it tonite to see if I can cobble it to the front of the engine.

I've scrounged a smaller carb. Will put a pic up tonite for comments.

Bynne, my research shows ptfe to be about 30% more insulating than sintered alumina, rather than 5 x worse.
Everybody seems to use different units but I suspect if alumina constant is 10, as you said, then ptfe will be 21?

Cheers, Keith.


----------



## Lakc

keith5700 said:


> Bynne, my research shows ptfe to be about 30% more insulating than sintered alumina, rather than 5 x worse.
> Everybody seems to use different units but I suspect if alumina constant is 10, as you said, then ptfe will be 21?
> 
> Cheers, Keith.


I looked that up too, and the answer seems to be "it depends". Plain PTFE lists at 600-2000v/.001", glass filled PTFE 330-600, and Roulon 100-1100. I found an even wider range for porcelains.


----------



## Bynne

Ah now I see, we are talking about different things. I was talking about dielectric constant, which has meaning on terms of capacitivity. The other is dielectric strength, which has meaning in terms of insulation breakdown (arcs).
There ptfe seems to be better than alumina. Perhaps the problem with the powerspark is the capacitance of the plug?


----------



## keith5700

Well, it seems there's nothing wrong with the plugs. I wired the Chevy dizzy up and tested my plug. It showed a really fat spark.












So then I put the plug in the pressure tester and wound the pressure up.Got up to full pressure with still a nice fat spark.





This is the guts of the sender unit. The plan is to get the trigger wheel and outer magnet (reluctor?) on the flywheel and then have another go at firing the engine.





Back in a few days....


----------



## keith5700

Yes, good point. I'll file 4 of the points off the ring and the inner wheel, not shown in pic. Cheers.


----------



## Lakc

Thats the factory GM module, you can lick one finger and put it on the battery positive and touch your other hand to one of the reluctor terminals and it will spark. For a good test you can just move an electric engraver next to the reluctor coil and it should spark all day. If you do decide to do some heavy testing with that module. you need to have it mounted with heatsink compound as it sinks from the bottom.

Thats one of the first generation electronic ignitions, and one of the best ever made. It only needs 5 connections, B+, ground, negative side of the coil, and both sides of the pulse generator (reluctor). It takes about a volt and a half to trigger, and only pays attention to the positive pulse, so you can literally run it off a hall sensor if you like. 

When a coil misfires or arcs internally because of too high external resistance it will start to carbonize the materials it jumps across. This carbon tracking will eventually look like a short to a spark and of course it takes the easiest way to ground. Your ebay coils were probably half shot through, and when they needed to fire under load the existing carbon tracking was an easier path.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Check amazon for coils. Someone was dumping coils brand new in the box about 3 weeks ago. I needed a duel coil and scored one for 35 dollars. They are mostly for single and 2 cylinder snowmobiles and wave runners from the early 80's and 90's. Most likely someone clearing the shelfs at a dealer or repair shop.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks all. Some good points raised. Funnily enough I was lying in bed last night after saying I'd file off 4 of the pointy things and thought 'hang on a minute, that might not produce enough voltage'.
Then I thought even if it did work, how am I going to split the sparks between 2 x dizzys.

My conclusion at the time was to keep all 8 points and feed both dizzys with 8 sparks per rev. Hopefully the spark would then take the easiest route, which would be whichever of the 2 rotor arms was in line with a cap contact at the time. I think I'll call this invention 'wasted spark!'

Then I wondered if I could junk all the GM trigger magnet stuff and just trigger the module with something else, as has been suggested above.
I have a GM crank trigger somewhere so I'll give that a whirl tonite. 
Mounting the GM stuff on the flywheel means I won't be able to get my starter on it in it's present form.

Jeff, the 2 x coils I have are new. Might be Chinese copies though.

Cheers.


----------



## sandman

so one question i have is are you planing on having 2 cylinders fire at once, since you have 2 dizzys, or are they off-set? if you are going to supply 8 pulses to both dizzys at the same time then you are going to get firing in between the terminals, in that case the spark might jump to the closest terminal and might fire the cylinder wile it is on the wrong stroke, which would lead to backfiring out the exhaust or the carb. maybe im wrong but thats what i forsee.


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

As the GM pole piece is nothing more than a coil of wire around an armature with a poled magnet running inside, why not just use four magnets in the flywheel and a small coil of wire for the pickup?
This could make it a simple crank trigger system, and the pickup coil could be slotted for timing adjustments. The GM ignition module has an advance curve built into it but that is a whole new subject.


----------



## Lakc

t.l.a.r. eng said:


> As the GM pole piece is nothing more than a coil of wire around an armature with a poled magnet running inside, why not just use four magnets in the flywheel and a small coil of wire for the pickup?
> This could make it a simple crank trigger system, and the pickup coil could be slotted for timing adjustments. The GM ignition module has an advance curve built into it but that is a whole new subject.


The modules with advance curve have additional pins attached to them, and you usually wont find them in distributors with a vacuum advance. 
With two distributors, and only one coil to feed them, you may be able to use a Y coil wire. One distributor should lag the other by 45 degrees and the spark should travel to the side with the least resistance. It may work as a demo but I wouldnt design something like that on purpose.


----------



## stevehuckss396

If 2 distributors is a problem why not convert one of them to 8 cylinder and plate off the other?


----------



## keith5700

I want to keep the 2 x distributors, at least on the final engine. For now though anything goes.
The twin dizzys aren't a problem for the Powerspark, as it will fire each one in turn, so hopefully it will turn out to be the coils which are the problem and not the Powerspark.
If the Powerspark is the problem then I can just fit 2 x ignition systems.
For now tho the task is to get it to fire up with minimum expenditure.

It may be that the spark will follow the path to the correct plug, as that will have the rotor arm in line, but the other dizzy's rotor arm will only be 45 degrees off, and the spark may find it easier to jump the rotor arm gap and fire a plug at atmospheric pressure, than trying to fire the correct plug at 60-70psi.

The other option would be, as Steve said, make an 8 way dizzy, although just a temporary thing, just to get it started.
I can't get on it for a few days so I'll report back when I have done something.
Cheers.


----------



## dsage

Keith:

Sorry I haven't gathered what it is you are using to trigger your ignition module. I built a V8 - pictured below. I used a rotating brass disk with 8, 3mm magnets inside the distributor (well below the high voltage stuff) to trigger a hall sensor and then used the CDI ignition module available here.
http://www.cncengines.com/ic.html
Pictured in the middle of the webpage and labelled as the "single spark CDI". The unit is about 1-1/2" square. No coil required - it's on the board. It runs on 3.6 to 4.8 volts. It runs my V8 fine. If you do the same for both distributors you'd have no problems.

Ditch all that other stuff and use the CDI unit. You won't be disappointed.

Just be careful you don't operate with an open circuit on the HV side. Although the newer modules I believe have a built in spark gap to protect the coil it is never a good idea on any ignition system to operate with a gap much larger than a spark plug.


PS> The engine is about 7-1/2" long. It's my V8 version of Jerry Howell's V4. The ignition module is hidden between the rails behind the rad along with a NiMH cell phone battery for power. I hate to see huge coils and stuff external to the engine and not in the proper scale of the rest of the engine.

I'm amazed at your workmanship. Keep up the good work !!

Sage


----------



## keith5700

Sage, thanks for that. Don't think I've seen your V8 anywhere before, looks nice.

I did think about those cdi ignitions early on, but couldn't figure out where the coil went, so discounted them. Seems like the coil is built into the unit then.
I will have a look and see how much these are in the UK.

At the moment I have rigged up a full sized crank sensor to trigger the Chevy HEI ignition system.
I only have 2 magnets fitted to the flywheel, so I wired the engine up to run just as a 4 cyl for now, just to see if it would start.
I used one dizzy to fire plugs 1,4,6 & 7.
I tried both carbs, propane gun and Easy start, but still not a murmer.

Some testing shows that the spark is going into the dizzy but not coming out.
It does not seem to be arcing inside, but obviously the voltage is draining away somewhere.

I am going to make a single dizzy for 8 plugs, and try that.
Firstly though I have decided to finish off the oil system so I don't wear the crank out even before it's fired up properly.


----------



## JLeatherman

I just wanted to say that I love this picture.  Really drives home the scale of the engine.  






keith5700 said:


>


----------



## Lakc

keith5700 said:


> Some testing shows that the spark is going into the dizzy but not coming out.
> It does not seem to be arcing inside, but obviously the voltage is draining away somewhere.


The HEI system is notorious for having enough spark energy to shoot through its own full sized rotor right to the distributor shaft. You may want to switch to a plastic shaft in your distributor, and or increase the distance inside. Also, make sure its vented as well as possible, first couple of sparks can ionize enough of that atmosphere in a tiny cap to make it inevitable the spark will go to the shaft or base. 
Unfortunately, you cant scale electrons.


----------



## LongRat

Keith, if you want to get one of those CDI systems, check out either Just Engines or the Hobbyking UK warehouse.  Both sources sell them, and they are not expensive.  I am planning to go that route with my engines.
Dsage, it is great to hear that this system works on your V8.  I haven't seen a simpler system and to my mind, simpler is better when it comes to ignition.


----------



## dsage

Longrat:

Yes, the CDI unit from the site I quoted seems to work fine but I rarely rev the engine higher than about 5,000rpm. Probably a good thing.

My carb is too small for the engine so that also contributes to not being able to rev it - Also a good thing.

I wasn't aware that the CDI ignitions were available from Hobby King. I know the guy from the website I quoted in the US. As I understood it he had them made to his specs in China (possibly Hobby King) but I'm not sure if they would be the same.

Keith:
Yes the coil is very tiny and is on the board. It can be so because the primary voltage is boosted to 350v or so from the battery 4.8v.

I would be careful using the GM HEI ignition. With a typical coil it can produce as much as 50kv at the plug. More IS NOT better. That kind of voltage will fly all over the place inside your cap and between leads. The HEI distributor cap is large for that reason.
You will likely not need much more than about 7kv to do the job.

If you go with 1 dizzy remember it will probably need to be bigger in diameter to increase the space between spark towers.

You say that the spark goes ito the dizzy but does not come out??

If you temporarily add an extra gap in the path to the spark plug about the same as the sparkplug gap you should see the spark jump that gap at the same time as it jumps the plug inside the engine. Perhaps by leaving a sparkplug boot loose with a small gap to the plug cap or make a stable jig with two fixed points.
(Remember - no large gaps or you could damage your coil)

I'm sure you probably did this but confirm once again.
Piston TDC on compression stroke
Valves closed properly with compression.
Spark is triggered at TDC (as a starting point) and is nice and hot.
The contacts in the distributor are pointing at the correct tower and plug and there is no large gap anywhere in the path from the coil secondary to the plug. (minimal spacing inside the cap).

If you have all that then it's probably a fuel issue.

Re carbs:

A lot of folks use the Walborough  (sp?)carburetors commomly found on weed-wackers. They are about the right size (CFM capacity). Be aware though that many of them are designed with an integral fuel pump that requires the crankcase pressure pulses present on two stroke engines to operate properly. There are 4-stoke versions that are just the carb and require either an external fuel pump or gravity fed fuel. Have look on line for the Walborough (sp?) website or visit your local small engine repair shop. They should have them in stock. They are VERY common although quite expensive. Another alternative is one of the carbs from one of the newer 4-stroke model airplane engines from your local hobby shop - also expensive (perhaps borrow from a modeller)

If the carb is too big you will likely not have enough vacuum capability to make it atomize fuel properly.
If the carb is too small you will have no problems other than not being able to reach high RPMS.
So.. better too small than too large.

You should be able to feel a distinct vacuum if you put you palm over the intake manifold while cranking. If not you may have valve issues (timing or leakage)

 Good Luck

Sage


----------



## e.picler

Hi Keith.
In order to know if it is carb problem, I would do a quick test spraying gas on carb intake and crank the engine. If the ignition is OK the engine will show just a quick response and dies.
Don`t get mad nor disapointed it for sure will wake up soon.
Congratulation for the quality of your finishing work, it is amasing.

Hey Sage!
One of this days I was waving on the internet and found that someone was doing a V8 version of Jerry Howell's V4, so now I know that you are the man. How is the engine running? It must be something to watch it making noise. Do you have a video of this little beast running?
Did you make drawings of your V8 version?
Congratulations your work look very good.

Edi


----------



## alihureiby

th_wwp.........


----------



## dsage

I don't want to Hi-jack this thread. 
My V8 is on my website (along with other things I've built) at www.davesage.ca there is a video of it running but it's a very early video and was not running very well. It's not a screamer by any means.

It is also on Jerry Howell's website under the Howell V4 topic.

Thanks for the interest.

NOW - PLEASE back to the really impressive V8 we're all supposed to be talking about.

Back to you Keith......

Sage


----------



## keith5700

Well finally I got it running. I had to cobble the insides of the HEI dizzy to the font of the engine to get some decent sparks.
I bought a simple small rc type carb to try. It has a 5mm venturi. 
After another week of trying with this setup I started to get some signs of life, and eventually today I got it to run constantly.
The setup is extremely sensitive to throttle position and only runs at one position.

There are 2 adjusting screws on the carb but neither of them seem to do anything. The carb was only £14 and is very basic. So, next question is does anyone know anything about this carb? It came with no instructions.
And, does anyone know of a reasonably priced carb which would be any better than this. I know there are plenty of more expensive small carbs, but I'd like to know if they are actually any better.

Engine makes an awsome sound by the way. Got a video but couldn't put it up anywhere as the engine is such a mess at the moment as you'll see.
Cheers.


----------



## Lakc

Just a guess but it looks severely under carbed. If thats the throttle position it takes to stay running it probably lacks enough signal to the fuel to draw it into the motor. Those carbs are extremely sensitive to fuel tank height and level, as they dont have much venturi effect. Try raising the fuel tank until its just shy of running over into the carb. Too long a fuel line is drag on the fuel flow as well.


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## vcutajar

Yes, that is great news Keith.  At least now you can put your mind at rest that the engine actually runs.

Vince


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## trumpy81

Keith, that is great news that you got it running. The carb is pretty simple and the only adjustment you have on it is the needle jet (black knurled barrel with clicker spring/retainer. Think of it as an adjustable main jet). Adjusting it can be an art form in itself but as you have confirmed it's good enough to get the engine running which was the goal right?

The trick to using this carb is to 'tune' it with the throttle at around 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. Once you have the engine running well at that throttle opening you should not need to adjust the needle much at all. Usually only a click or two in or out depending on the atmospheric conditions, engine temperature and the fuel quality. You'll need to confirm the settings at full throttle, but don't expect a good idle from it.

Keep in mind that the carb you are using was intended to run methanol so the needle taper is probably not ideal for petrol if that is what you are running?

Anyhow, now that you have confirmed it is running you can fine tune/rebuild the ignition system and get that side of the equation sorted, then you can start work on the fuel injection. At the very least you now have a datum to work from.

I'm also going to assume that you don't have any ignition advance system so it may be worth experimenting with different advance settings. Again, you wont get perfect results, it will either run well at full throttle and poorly at less than half throttle or vice-versa.

P.S. If you would like, I can post the video on YouTube or host it on my website for you?


----------



## Henry

Awesome sound? I am eating all my nails waiting for that "noise"  Great news... also I am sure that you are able now to pinpoint each different area, ignition, timing, and carb and finish this marvel.


----------



## dsage

First off !! Great effort Keith" I'm glad you got it running.

I generally hate the ads on this site but did anyone notice that in the last post (at least when I looked) there was an ad for "how to find Techumseh carbs". Amazing how the bot's can figure out what ads to post.

Anyway. I too think this carb might be too small. If you are looking for larger ones, I suggested a while back that a lot of guys are using Walborough (SP?) "weed whacker" carbs. (Also on chain saws and the like).
They are very common. Your local small engine repair will have them in stock (or perhaps your local home improvement store). As mentioned before, they are usually for 2-strokes and include a pressure pulse requiring fuel pump in them which will not work. But there are version without the pump which will work so be careful choosing. Alot of them should be about the right size for your application.

Good luck !!

Sage


----------



## doubletop

Time for one of the lurkers to front up. We'll done Keith, greta job.  I can imagine getting it going has been bugging you for a while now with so many variables to deal with and no luck. No doubt a few of the things you are about to try now will be a step  backwards and you'll wonder what it was that allowed you to get it to go  in the first place. So time to baseline so you can get back to working engine if you need to. 



trumpy81 said:


> ....................... If you would like, I can post the video on YouTube or host it on my website for you?



Trumpy; I think the point was he didn't want to post it on YouTube because it was a mess and a video at this point would not do it justice.

Pete


----------



## trumpy81

doubletop said:


> Trumpy; I think the point was he didn't want to post it on YouTube because it was a mess and a video at this point would not do it justice.
> 
> Pete



Pete, I was thinking of an anonymous posting in an obscure place like my YouTube channel which has 0 files on it and my website which has a similar number of visits ... lol

I should have made that a bit more clear I guess. Of course the video would be deleted the moment Keith gave the nod.

Most of us just want to hear it so there is no reason we couldn't post the audio only


----------



## gbritnell

I use a similar carb on my 302 engine for running while I have replicated the internal features into a miniature copy of the actual carb for my engine. The carb you are using is commonly referred to as an air bleed carb. As was already stated the main needle is adjusted for high rpm running while the air bleed screw is to reduce the vacuum signal at idle so it doesn't pull as much fuel and go rich. 
While experimenting with different carbs on my 302 I ended up with this type. I'm not saying that others won't work but this type proved to be the best of the bunch. As far as venturi size, my 302 has a bore of 1.00 and a stoke of .900. My venturi size is .200 and the engine runs fine. It's easier to start with a small hole and work up then the other way around. 
gbritnell


----------



## Lakc

Audio is what everyone is waiting for, I am sure. 

 Keith, good job, especially for a freshman effort. Take your time to get things sorted out before you let the gallery pressure you into anything.


----------



## trumpy81

gbritnell said:


> I use a similar carb on my 302 engine for running while I have replicated the internal features into a miniature copy of the actual carb for my engine. The carb you are using is commonly referred to as an air bleed carb. As was already stated the main needle is adjusted for high rpm running while the air bleed screw is to reduce the vacuum signal at idle so it doesn't pull as much fuel and go rich.
> While experimenting with different carbs on my 302 I ended up with this type. I'm not saying that others won't work but this type proved to be the best of the bunch. As far as venturi size, my 302 has a bore of 1.00 and a stoke of .900. My venturi size is .200 and the engine runs fine. It's easier to start with a small hole and work up then the other way around.
> gbritnell



George, the carb that Keith is using is NOT an air bleed carb. Looking at the photos you will see a small screw with fibre washer on the bottom left, this screw simply holds the barrel in place, it is not an air bleed adjustment screw. You will also notice an absence of the air bleed hole in the carb body.

The only adjustment on Keith's carb is the needle valve.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Andy,
I guess I didn't look close enough. That's probably why he's having so much trouble running the engine. 
gbritnell


----------



## trumpy81

gbritnell said:


> Hi Andy,
> I guess I didn't look close enough. That's probably why he's having so much trouble running the engine.
> gbritnell



Yeah it does explain the limited throttle response for sure. But then this is a get her running carb and is not intended for the final engine.

Keith could add an air bleed and screw to it but I think it would be a waste of time all things considered.

I love that carb of yours


----------



## keith5700

So how about this carb?
I bought it a few months ago purely for testing purposes. It's a Walbro 'type' carb according to the ebay description, but again no instructions.
I've no idea if it needs pressurised fuel feed, or what the screws do.
The bore is just under 11mm.

I tried to start the engine again yesterday but it didn't want to know. Eventually it blew the ptfe centres out of 2 of the spark plugs. Still haven't found one of them.
I'll be gone for a while now as it's time to get the oil system working, before the crank wears out.
Also it could do with the cooling system working, even crudely, as it got hot really fast when it was working.

I think the main requirement in getting these things to run is some decent fuel atomisation. I'm still hoping the single fuel injector will solve a lot of problems, if and when I get that working.
Cheers.


----------



## dsage

Keith:

Are their any model numbers on the Walborough. I have the specs (or a link) for many of them around here somewhere. I'll have to search. They either have an integral pump that requires crankcase pressure pulses ala 2-stroke (which won't work) or they are just a "standard carb" and I believe have a float bowl with needle and seat. Those should work with gravity fed fuel supply or fed with a fuel pump.

Let me know. I'll see what I can find.

Sage


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## keith5700

Sage, there is a number on the carb, but I suspect it isn't a genuine Walbro number, not at the price I paid.
The no. is NFI35286.

Luc, the carb is like you said, and needs some positive,(or negative?) pressure pulses to pump fuel.
Unfortunately my crankcase isn't sealed yet so that won't work.
I can rig up a pressurised fuel feed, from 1psi upwards, but I suppose the advantage of the pulse system is that when the engine stops, the fuel feed also stops, whereas a pressurised external fuel feed would just carry on and flood the engine.

I guess I need a carb with a fuel float bowl and needle. I don't mind buying one now I know the engine will run.
Luc, that big carb in post 195 is just a big worn out pile of junk really so don't want that back on.
I have a bit of time now to sort a decent carb out, as I have to make all the other stuff mentioned earlier.

Thanks everyone for your continued advice. 

Made a couple of silencers yesterday. They have adjustable internals as I want to tune them to get a nice deep rumble if possible. I may put a balance pipe between the manifolds and see if that smooths things out. Never got round to trying them as the engine wouldn't start again.


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## jixxerbill

That is one big mountain motor, thats what we call'em down here in my neck of the woods..


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## aonemarine

I suddenly feel very very small....


----------



## dsage

Keith:

The carb you have certainly "looks" like a Walbro carb. The Walbro's that look like the one you have all have "W" model numbers. It's difficult to tell looking at the Walbro carbs externally which ones have the pumps although it may be that extra tube shown in Luc' s diagram is the give away. Some are listed as for 2 or 4 stroke some specifically for 4 stroke so that's all very confusing as well.
Read more about the pumps below.

Here is a link to the ones that look like yours

http://www.walbro.com/media/8260/Rotarycarbs8-16-12web.pdf

Walbro also has stand alone pulse pumps and the explaination on how they work is here:
http://www.walbro.com/media/5980/FPC pump 8-20-12.pdf
Apparently they can be made to work by connecting the pulse tube to the intake manafold on a four stroke rather than the crankcase in a 2-stroke. They mention something about a spring that needs to be added. Others tell me that connecting to the intake does not work but I think it will be less effective the more cylinders you have since the pulses will e bevened out and reduced by more cylinders.

There are service manuals here which may help identify which ones have pumps also.
http://www.walbro.com/servicemanuals.aspx

An explaination on how the pump works is here.
http://www.walbro.com/techtipsmetering

Bottom line, as Luc pointed out, you probably have a pressure pulse operated version but hey - give it a try.

Walbro sure makes a lot of nice looking carbs, but they are not cheap. Seems they start at about $60 and can go as high as a full sized carb for a car !! The prices are in the spare parts listings on the site.


My friend who is familiar with them more than I has not responded to my email yet.

Not sure if this is of any help but good luck.

Sage


----------



## Lakc

There are ways to obtain the pressure pulses that may work with that carb. Tapping into the exhaust is one of them, crank blowby is another.


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## keith5700

Thanks again for replies. I'm having a bit more luck getting it started, still with the small rc carb, but it won't rev over 2000 even at wide open. I think I need a rethink on the spark plugs first. I have kept the ptfe in place by crimping over the top of the plug, but it doesn't seem to work with ptfe, with it being so slippery.
I can't see the pulse system working myself, either inlet or exhaust, as the pulses are all smoothed out by there being 8 cylinders instead of one. As Sage has already hinted at. What I really want is a nice Walbro carb that can work with just, say, a 2 psi fuel pressure feed, like a normal carb.

Still googling to see if anyone has done this, but drawn a blank so far.

The engine is too quite with the exhaust by the way. Fairly deep sound, but not enough of it! The cam timing belt is louder than the exhaust. 
The flywheel is also too light so I'm making another this morning.
Not all doom and gloom tho'. I'm still very happy that it runs at all!


----------



## Lakc

Far enough downstream, with a good header design, the pulses are a bit smoothed out but still present. However, you can tap off a single cylinder easily enough.
If your more prone to hide the plumbing, an eccentric or wobble plate type pump off the back of a camshaft would do the trick as well.


----------



## keith5700

Well, some mixed success. I figured out the revving problem. Just a stupid electrical fault of my own making. I was just getting the mixture right at higher rpm when it stopped suddenly. Turns out the HEI ignition module has bit the dust.
I've had it now with electronic ignition systems. I'm going to find a mini set of points and go down that route.
Presumably the HEI coil will be ok to run off points?
Anyone know of any points which are a bit smaller than the normal type, which I could pick up from Halfords in th UK?


----------



## keith5700

Oh, forgot to mention, this morning I suddenly got loads of smoke out the back. Turned out to be a head gasket ptfe ring had gone. I replaced it and carried on but this needs a different material too.


----------



## dsage

Keith:
A few items.

Other than confirming what we already figured, my one friend said he thought your carb looked like a Walbro "W" model with a pump and that the service manuals are on the Walbro site. If that helps.

I forgot all about a second friend who I believe uses a Walbro carb on his Challenger V8. I emaild hom a few minutes ago and asked him about what will and will not work re pumps and things. I'm sure he's been through it all before.
For what it's worth I have seen lots of them used on models at the shows around here.

Suggested ideas about picking off one exhaust pipe or a cam excentric might work. But by the time you arrange some sort of pressure transfer arrangement (from exhaust pipe or cam excentric), it's probably going to be the same work to use a Walbro without a pump and gravity feed or a small electric pump fuel.

A standard O-ring should work on your heads. I have them on mine. There should not be excessive heat there - at least no hotter than your head gets - water temperature . And the pressure should be well within the specs of a well chosen O-ring. In any case I think you're going to need something other than hard plastic (which I assume your PTFE is). Something that crushes more.
I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at in the pictures of your block but obviously an O-ring is going to need to be in a steel O-ring groove right in the head (or block top). Where are the PTFE seals in the picture??
Looks like black O-rings on something in the background.


Sage


----------



## keith5700

Luc, Sage, I didn't know what you meant about an O ring, but now the penny's dropped.
At the moment there is no groove in the liner, just a 15 thou' step. The white ptfe washer is 20 thou' thick, so gives 5 thou' of crush.
I never considered using an ordinary, Viton?, o ring in a full groove in the liner, but is worthy of consideration.
I'll dig out my drawings and see if I could fit one in.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Hello Keith!

If it helps any I have made gaskets from .020 teflon sheet. They have not failed me yet and the ones in Peewee have been in service for many years. Maybe you could fill the step with an aluminum washer and make an all teflon gasket. 

This one is from the Demon.


----------



## hammer2100

Keith,
     Your engine is awsome, hear is my Two cents on your gaskets. Cut them out of copper than anneal them. This has worked 
for many high proformance engine builders for years.
                            Hammer


----------



## dsage

Keith:

Sorry I missed the obvious gap burned from the PTFE seal. 
It doesn't surprise me that it burned up since you have it right in the combustion chamber and plastic isn't much good at getting rid of heat. You'll need to have the O-ring out some distance from the bore. Not sure of scale but, could a ring be put in groove centered of the top edge of the liner.? That's about where it should be so it has metal on both sides. It could perhaps be put out in a new groove milled in the junction of the liner and block. If the ring was large enough in diameter it would seal to both pieces. Might be iffy though. If it doesn't seal properly compression might tunnel under the ring (like it did with the PTFE), and get behind the liner. 
As Luc mentioned a 1/16th O-ring should technically be large enough to take the compression. I usually allow for about 10-15% crush.
Whatever you do, your going to have to fill the old step with something or you'll have a great deal of compression reduction. Maybe just a steel ring like the PTFE ring to take up space. Not sure how you would hold it in place from rattling around.

As mentioned, a copper head gasket might be the best idea. Same problem filling the step though. In that case the copper gasket might hold the step filler in place for you too.

I think you mentioned waaaay back that the heads are not water cooled so a teflon (or other insulating gasket) would be out in order to get good heat transfer from the head to the block.


Hmmm 

Sage


----------



## LongRat

I like the idea of the annealed copper sheet.  Conducts well too.
In your position Keith I would go with that but simply make replacements for your current Teflon washers out of the annealed copper.  It would then just be a case of swapping parts out, rather than any more machine work on your block.  If it doesn't work out you can always try something else later.


----------



## dsage

Keith:

I received a response concerning the carbs with pulse pumps.
You may have heard of this Gentleman. His name is Ron Colonna and he is one of the Masters over here on this side of the pond (in the USA). http://www.ronsmodelengines.com/
You'll see the Challenger V8 under the Gasoline engines section.

<quoted sections from his email>

.....I have a diaphragm carb on my (Challenger) V-8, but it is a Tiliston from a weed whacker that I picked up as scrap from a guy that used to fix them. Walboro carbs are about the same.....

....The bore on this carb is around 5/8", way too big for a four stroke of the size of the Challenger....

...I had to put a reducing bushing in the bore. (to reduce it to) 1/4" bore ...

....There are several ways you can go with the internal fuel pump. This pump needs to be pulsed. The two stroke engine from which it came produces pressure pulses in the crankcase in its normal cycle. So a tube from the crankcase to the inlet of the pump serves to pulse the pump just fine. On a four stroke V-8, the crankcase pressure remains almost constant because as one piston is going up another is coming down and the pulsation s cancel. The diaphragm carb needs the fuel to be under pressure to function. The vacuum at the Venturi acts on the diaphragm to open the fuel monitoring needle. If there is no pressure on the other side of the needle, no fuel will flow into the engine. Paul Knapp built a small diaphragm pump that runs off the cam in the distributor to pulse the internal pump in the carb. This pump was made to look like the vacuum advance diaphragm controlled system attached to the early engines in full size. I simply built a fuel tank with a pressure pump that works like the Coleman lanterns. I put in fuel, seal the tank with a screw in stopper, and pressurize the tank with a few pumps. The pressure remains fairly constant throughout until the tank is empty. The west coast guys use an electric fuel pump to supply the pressure. A gravity feed will not work because the pressure is too low. Also, since a two stroke as used on a chainsaw or weed whacker moves so much air, it produces a high vacuum at the Venturi which as I stated, serves to open the fuel needle. The airflow though the V-8 is much less, so the needle will barely open or not open at all as carb is supplied. The diaphragm works against a spring which holds the needle closed when the engine is stopped and not producing a vacuum. For four stroke use, this spring needs to be shortened a bit to put less pressure on the diaphragm for the vacuum to overcome. As you can see, with a standard two stroke diaphragm carb, a whole can of worms is opened when you decide to use one. Having said that, there are carbs of this type made for small bore two strokes, that will work as is. The key is small bore. A carb from a chain saw or weed eater needs to be modified, but one from a model airplane engine for example would not need any reworking.

<end quote>

I'm sure you've probably already decided what direction you're going and perhaps none of the above is going to be of much use to you.

But I include it because it is all excellent information for everyone.

After all that IMHO it might be best to go with a Walbro without the pump and use an electric pump.

Sage


----------



## keith5700

Thank you all. I would like to use this Walbro type carb if I can, although once I'd sorted out the electrics the small rc carb seemed to rev well. It got to about 6000 rpm when the Chevy ignition module expired. I will get the Walbro stripped and see if I can identify the spring in question. It would be easier to just pressurise the fuel supply and then that's another variable sorted.
Walbro bore is 11mm. Engine is 19 bore x 18 stroke, from memory anyway.

I will have to try the copper sealing ring too. I'm not sure how much 10 x m3 cap screws can compress 4 x copper rings, but I'm sure it won't be as much as 5 thou'. I can't put a normal o ring at the top as I have another o ring in the sidewall of the liners, near the top, to seal the water system.

Steve, I need to have ally to ally contact with the head and block to cool the heads, since I had to take out the water jackets out of the head, as Sage has mentioned.
I'm having a few days off the frustrating stuff now and making a small supply of mini AN fittings, ready for piping the oil pump up.
I've also ordered some good old reliable points, so we'll see if I can blow them up!
Cheers.


----------



## dsage

Keith:

Not sure how high you want to rev the engine. I know it's impressive to rev it up for show but don't push your luck. Better it survive for a while than throw a rod, float a valve into a piston or otherwise break something. A small carb is good insurance against over-revving accidents.
Another piece of advise - don't deccelerate to quickly either (i.e slam the throttle shut). Again - sounds cool but flywheel inertial has been known to break things as well.


BTW if you insist on going to points AND you want to rev it up, consider a dual point distributor (like the big boys used to use back in the day). Twice the headaches but will give you a better spark at high RPM.s (longer dwell).

Sage


----------



## mayhugh1

I'm building a 9 cylinder radial and am planning to use a Walbro on it. Here is what I've done, though I haven't yet tested it. (I've finished all the parts for the engine and am now assemblying it.) I made an adapter between my intake manifold and the Walbro that also included a "carb bowl". This 'bowl' has an input line running into it fed from a fuel pump and a spring-loaded pop-off requlator built into it inside that feeds pressurized fuel to the carb. The pressure regulator is set at 5 psi and the excess gas in the bowl is returned through an outlet tube to the fuel tank. I made an electric fuel pump by robbing the internals of an RC model fuel-filler that I bought at a local hobby store for $12. I also modified the carb by removing the two check valve flaps under the the carb's pump cover, but I don't think this is necessary because it turned out that 5 psi was enough to push the fuel through them. Like I said, it isn't yet tested, but it looks pretty good. Since my carb doesn't have a choke or a priming system, I may have to prime it for initial starting by pushing down slightly on the diaphragm with a toothpick with the fuel pump running. I drill a tiny hole in the center of the diaphragm cover for this. - Terry


----------



## dsage

canadianhorsepower said:


> not if your free running, the ONLY way (or two) to stop an over rev
> #1 a rev limeter
> #2 a tune pipe witha steep angle on the baffle
> ooppssss
> #3 your right footRof}Rof}Rof}


 

LUC:
Hmmm. I'll take your word for it. I would have thought a small carb wide open BUT unable to deliver enough air and fuel would be the same as a larger carb with the throttle only partly open. So what you're saying is that with a little carb wide open the engine will eventually rev out of control ?



Hey Terry:
Nice to "see" you again. 4 cylinders of the Howell wasn't enough for you . Have you posted any progress on your 9 cylinder on line? I'd like to see your (usual) great work.
PM me some time.

Dave Sage


----------



## dsage

Not to get too far off topic here but how does an engine ever idle?
The throttle plate is just restricting the air through the carb (and therefore the amount of fuel it introduces into the air) and therefore the speed. Why isn't reducing the maximum air due to too small a carb the same thing. I can't figure out why an engine with the throttle held slightly open and not altered doesn't run-away.

BTW. Every model engine I've ever seen just sits on the bench running. We don't normally put loads on them - other than their own friction. So why don't they all rev out of control?

I need to understand this. 

Anybody else want to weigh in here?

Sage


----------



## Cogsy

I'm with you on this one Sage. If the carb is small enough, it will restrict the RPM of the engine to a low range, even when wide open. Of course, such a small carb wouldn't deliver anywhere near enough power to run a proper load, but as you say, model engines don't normally have any load on them.

All I can think of is that a small carb that limited the max RPM may not have appropriate throttle response. I know if I had a sweet little V8 like this, I'd want to be able to blip the throttle and have the engine roar instantly...


----------



## dsage

Re: Blipping the throttle.
I'm with you on that one, That is very cool to hear an engine with instant throttle response. 
My V8 has too small of a carb (sized for a V4) and you're right, it accelerates pretty slowly and only revs to about 5500. Not very impressive. I was considering it a safety feature that it would not over rev. (My original point). I stretched Jerry Howell's V4 to a V8 and considering the 12 piece built-up crank I'm am concerned with it's durability.
I guess to be impressive one needs to have a light foot and be careful  as Luc suggested.
I hope Keith gets it sorted out so we can all hear an impressive performance. It sure looks impressive.

Sage


----------



## keith5700

Luc, you're just confusing people again. Maybe you could start your own thread for your engineering theories? 5250rpm isn't a magic number, it's just where the hp and torque curves cross each other on an engine printout. It will be the same for a lawn mower and an F1 engine, but nothing to do with whether an engine will rev out of control with no load.

The limiting factor for revs will probably be the valves bouncing, or more likely, floating, which will be related to the valve spring load. The carb inlet size wouldn't normally restrict a full sized engine from revving under no load, as the bore will have been  sized to allow full revs under maximum load. So under no load the carb is way too big to restrict rpm.

In my case, with a 5mm carb then under no load it probably will rev till the valves bounce, but the carb will be far too small if I asked the engine to produce, say, 3bhp at 6000rpm.

If I put a 2mm bore carb on there then full throttle might be 1500rpm at a guess, so the carb is restricting the rpm, as it does when a larger carb is at pert throttle.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Keith, its great to see progress on your engine.

Re: carb size. Like Sage suggests there is no difference between a closed throttle and a small carb. If the carb is small enough to limit no load RPM to 5000 or 8000 RPM it will never run any faster without load. It would be the same to remove the throttle plate and install a restictor plate with a .250" hole or whatever. If you never intend to run a load, use a small carb, if you will do dyno testing size it accordingly. Too large a carb might leads to poor vacuum signal and poor carb performance. Walbro carbs can be tricky to pick because they are individually tuned for the application by Walbro. if you get too far out of the intended volume flow range, performance will be poor(not tunable via the needles).

Re: Walbro fuel pumps. The built in Walbro fuel pumps in W series carbs make about 5 PSI. If you feed fuel under pressure to the fuel inlet of one of these fuel will flow through and the fuel pump need not be connected to a pulsed pressure( two stroke crankcase or single cylinder four stroke intake). In the RC hobby world we have Cline regulators which work with a pressurized fuel tank using a check valve on the exhaust or crankcase. These are simply the metering portion of the Walbro carb which you add to an existing carb. These are great for their application. Some commercial radial RC engines use a crank driven fuel pump to pump through the stock Walbro carb. A pulse connection to a sinlge intake port may not provide enough pressure because the runners are connected to each other via the plenum(rather large volume compared to a single cylinder engine).

Re: RC glow engine carbs These are simple carbs like a Mikuni, but even simpler. The main jet is adjustable via the main needle. This must be set at WOT close to where it needs to be to get the low end set right. Any changed on the main needle will influence the low speed needle. The tapered needle closes toward a seat as the throttle is closed, this provides midrange and idle metering. Either the seat or the needle position is adjustable relative to each other, and this adjusts low speed and mid-range mixture simultaneously. The idle needle taper is designed for air fueal ratio of 4-6:1 and with gas needing 12-16:1 to run, they can be tuned with perfect WOT and idle settings, but will result in a fat midrange. The only remedy is a different needle taper, which you can't buy. Often a suitable setting can be found with a slightly rich mid, but carbs taken from car or boat engines should be avoided as they run vary rich air fuel ratios due to high percentage of nitromethane in the fuel.


----------



## canadianhorsepower

> Luc, you're just confusing people again. Maybe you could start your own thread for your engineering theories?


 
*wow that was really uncalled for*,
but it's a good idea, it would help you getting this thing running


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## keith5700

Hi Diesel. So can I assume that the rc carbs would run fairly well if a new needle was made with the same small and large diameters, but the middle was fattened out a bit to lean out the midrange? Or doesn't it work like that?


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## petertha

I dont beleive there are many, but here is an example of RC model 4-stroke gas walboro style carb. Sorry I dont know details.
http://www.aerobertics.be/productDetail.php?prod=7247&cat=3&brand=140


Lots of walboro style used on 2-stroke & 2S multi-cylinder variety. Again, sorry I dont know much about how they are plumbed and/or pulsed.

http://www.desertaircraft.com/engines_detail.php?Page=DA-170


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## mu38&Bg#

Chances are pretty good if it was from an airplane engine, the RC carb will run just fine. Many glow engines have been converted to gas and spark using stock carbs. If you really wanted to get the tuning just right you could consider making a low speed needle with less taper. Finding the running settings is going to be the tricky part, but if you've managed to get it to run off and prime and run on the carb, you're pretty close. I'd set the main needle 3/4-1 turn out and open the low speed needle incrementally until it fires on the carb. Use a small fuel tank and mount it just below the spraybar.

Peter, the Walbro carbs used on four strokes are no different than the two strokes, except that some have a spring pushing against the pump diaphragm to assist the pressure pulse from the intake. If you use an external pump it doesn't matter. WT-456  is an example of a Walbro used on four stroke engines. It has an  acceleration pump and pump spring. We use these on converted glow to gas  and spark 20CC single cylinder engines like OS FS-120 making about  2.5HP at 8000RPM. The accel pump allows a slightly leaner low range and still gives a good transition from idle to full throttle. There are engines out there using regular two stroke Walbro.

Greg


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## keith5700

OK the points ignition system is in and working. It's a bit crude at the moment as I wanted to see if it works ok, and indeed it does. I can't believe all the time I've wasted with the 2 electronic crapnition systems so far. Now I know it works I need to source some smaller points and fit 2 sets, so I can run each dizzy off it's own set.
The engine started almost straight away, and will keep on revving till I get scared and back it off. At low revs there is a very realistic burble from the silencers, but at high revs the noise from the points is very overpowering. I can sort that out with a slower ramp up and down on the points cam.

I now really do need to get the oil system and cooling system working, before it seizes up!


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## Gazzaleach

Well done that man


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## RManley

Such an amazing engine with so much detail.  I cant wait to hear & see it run (hint)

I still cant get over your exhausts. 

Rob.


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## keith5700

Update time! This is a short version as the first reply got lost in the ether somewhere.

I've been working on the pipework for the oil system. This includes a fine mesh filter for inside the sump, for the pickup pipe, and an adjustable pressure regulator for the oil return pipe.




















This has caused a problem with exhaust smoke, after running the engine with a sumpfull of oil. I have 2 compression rings but no oil ring.
I was hoping to get away without one, but apparently not.
I need to strip it down now and see if I can squeeze a George Britnell style oil ring into the existing pistons.











Random shot of milling out the side pockets of the big wing sump


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## Lakc

Smoke is a good thing, it means it is running. 
Sticking an oil ring in is more then just tricky, you have to have a place for all the scraped oil to go. Smoke may get better with some runtime, or it may not. I personally would not worry about re-engineering the pistons at this point, I would concentrate on baffles and crank scrapers, and save the oil rings for the next design. However, thats me, you have to do what makes you happy.


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## keith5700

hi Jeff, the engine's got to come apart anyway to get rid of the ptfe head seals so I'll assess the ring job then.
I did consider a crank baffle so I'll look at that at the same time.
MY next engine, which is being slowly drawn up at the moment, will have a dry sump. I decided this a while ago, purely because it will look better, but it may now be a better choice for oil control too.

Next engine is 1/3rd scale V10 if anyone's wondering. Can't remember if I've mentioned this before. The V8 is just turning out to be a test bed for the REAL engine.


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## propclock

O.K.!!  Smoke is a good thing. Small engine combustion is not trivial.
I have been following the post since the beginning. I Still can't 
believe the realism. And you have smoke.
You have a distributor and ignition system you are happy with?
Looks like an O.S. carb for now?
Spark and fuel / air is the hardest part of this hobby in my opinion.
These are the lessons that are the hardest to learn and the most valuable to 
others. 
When you are desperate to hear a pop most do not take notes. 
The failures are just as important as the successes. 
An absolutely gorgeous engine please tell us what you finally found out that 
worked and just as importantly, didn't work.
I have read the entire post over time and truly appreciate all your posts.
The final solution still has me wondering ? How did you make it run?  
Again please document now, before you forget. The  lessons learned.
Just my 20 cents.


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## dsage

Yes. I agree. We'd like to know what happened.
Unless I missed something, last I noted you were still trying to decide which carb to use and how to make it work and what to do about spark. You had rigged up a GM HEI but it quit and you were going to go to a conventional points ignition. Inquiring minds want to know  

As far as your oil issue. A few items you might want to check:

 How did you make your rings? I don't think I caught that part of the build (unless it was way back). Rings are a stumbling block for a lot of modelers.  Oil rings are not a necessity. If the compression rings are working properly you should have minimal smoking. I have no oil rings in any of the engines I've built and they run (sometimes disturbingly) smoke free. A little smoke is a good sign though. It shows the upper parts like rings are getting oil.
I recommend the Trimble method of making rings. Seems to work well for me.

How much pressure do you have on the mains. Could you have free flowing oil (due to excessive clearances somewhere) that is being excessively thrown about in the crankcase and being thrown up into the cylinders?

Is the engine running well? Do you have a nice push from each exhaust pipe. i.e no suction. (oops I guess you can't tell with the collectors and mufflers).
 You might consider some straight pipes for a while. It might just be one cylinder in each bank giving you issues. (i.e bad rings).

Improper intake valve timing (excessively early closing) can cause a vacuum in the cylinder which will pull air up past the rings from the crankcase - and oil vapour with it.

I'm still amazed at the engine. It's a piece of art. 

Thanks for sharing it with us


Sage


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## keith5700

Maybe it is time for a recap. The ultimate plan is, or was at he start, to build a fuel injected V8. Although I have started designing my next one, I still intend finishing this, even if only to sell it on.

This is the injection bit, but no injector yet. 


















So, on the carb side I'm not too interested now, my little RC aero carb was just intended to get the engine to run. It won't rev through the range with this carb, the mixture screw has to be set for low, mid or high rpm manually.
It turns out it is a good carb from an atomising point of view, probably because of it's small bore. This is all that's required at the initial fire-up stage, to reduce the number of unknowns. I would use this carb again next time.

My particular issue with getting the engine to start was almost entirely down to a not strong enough spark. The simple pressure chamber tester showed this up very clearly, that just because the plug will fire in free air doesn't mean it will fire in the cylinder at, say 90psi?

For what it's worth I would probably test run my next engine with points initially, as again it reduces the number of unknowns. You can't really go far wrong with points, condenser and coil.
Now I know the engine runs I need to re-visit my first electronic ignition system and find out why that didn't work. I suspect he coils are crap.

The way I would look at it from now on it if it won't fire with a little rc carb and points, then there's something else wrong.

One other must on initial fire up would be to pre-heat the engine, to 60c at least. This helps to get fuel vapour into the cylinder, rather than just droplets.

I'm going to follow straight on with piston rings, but will post this before I lose it.


----------



## keith5700

On the smoking issue, the engine will run with just a bit of smoke when there is no oil in the sump. As soon as I filled the sump the engine smoked, badly. I did put enough oil in initially so the crank would pick some up and fling it up the cylinders, but this was stupid. The opposite is what is required, so the next time the sump is off I will try and fit a baffle, or wiper plate. Or windage tray, whatever it's called.

Having had a look at my piston drawing there is no room to fit an oil ring, either above or even below the pin. I really don't want to make new pistons and rings. I'm hoping the lower ol level and windage tray will keep the smoke acceptable.

The pistons have 2 x comp rings.
After talking to my metallurgist mate I decided against the heat treat method of making them. From memory I parted the ring off, split it with a saw, filed the ends square and then slid them into a dummy cylinder bore.
The ring was then clamped up in this position and the cylinder removed.
The cylinder bore was a few mm oversize from the engine bore, to give the tension.

I'm not explaining this very well but it is documented on here somewhere because this is where I got the idea from.

The clamped up rig was then turned to the engine bore size.
This seemed to be a better way of ending up with a circular ring as opposed to heat treating to set the ring tension. I figured when a ring is forced open manually then it must deform into a slight ellipse, as the bending moment will be more in the middle of the ring than the ends. So conversely 
if 'set' in an open position then it must be  a slight ellipse when squashed into a round bore.

This could be rubbish of course, but I'm happy with it. There were only a couple of rings with any visible light round the edge when I made them.
The gaps were only a couple of tenths, and I didn't use those anyway.

I suspect the initial ring force is only needed to get the engine to start anyway, the gas pressure when running must cause the vast majority of ring load onto the cylinder wall.

I'll go now 'cos I've forgot what my point was going to be, but that's how I did the rings.
Next engine will definitely have oil rings.

Soon be starting the injection...............that's when the real fun starts.
Cheers.


----------



## Banjoe

Like a lot of folks here, I've been watching this incredible build in absolute amazement. 

I do have to say that, as remarkable as the build developed, what truly amazed me is the group that adopted this project when it ran into trouble. What an truly impressive group on this web site - I have my hat off in honor of the group for their support of a fellow in need.


----------



## dsage

Keith:

Thanks for the update and for covering the questions.

Your method of making the rings appears sound. And perhaps better than the Trimble method. I'll have to take note of that.
The most important point is to ensure the rings are round and you've done that - best I can tell.
 I guess you could tell with a leak down test per cylinder if you need to figure out if there is a weak cylinder.

I think you might be on to something with the excessive oil in the crankcase causing issues..


Keep us posted.

Sage
http://davesage.ca


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## keith5700

Crikey, 4 months have just gone. Back on the engine then!

The plan is, modify a standard fuel injector, bodge that in a makeshift manifold, operate it with a manual microswitch, see what happens.
If it works then get the throttle body working, then get some electronics to fire the injector.

I used a Fiat Punto injector. This flowed 150cc/min. The orifice is 18 thou' diameter. The smallest drill I could get hold of is 10 thou' so I stripped the injector and made a new orifice plate. Getting the sealing face flat was a pain but I did it eventually. The new injector flows 75cc/min. at 40psi.

I then had to make new injector internals to halve its overall length.

The injector is mounted upside down to fire up into the plenum. I made a temporary central tube just to see if it worked. The tube has a pin across the bore, against which the injector fires the fuel jet. This seemed to atomise the fuel quite well.

I'll put the pics up first as my computer keeps crashing and I hate losing posts.





















Next post following straight on.............


----------



## keith5700

To be honest I never thought this was going to work, so I just lashed it together.
I warmed the engine up with the carb and then swapped over to the injector setup.
The garage filled up with smoke inside 1 minute on the carb, as usual.

I turned the engine over and gave the injector a squirt with the microswitch. It fired up straight away. There is no throttle of any sort, just the open tube. I could balance the revs with the microswitch. It was wierd.  Hold the switch down longer and the revs built up, then revert to small taps and it ticked over quite slow. 
It was interesting to note how long the engine would run after a squirt from the injector. Probably about a second, which doesn't sound long, but it shows that I'm not going to need a super small injector firing every rev, but this one should be fine firing every 10 or so revs?

Another interesting observation - hardly any smoke. So the smoke is mostly fuel and not oil.

So, next job is to get the throttle body working and see how this works with the manual switch, which I know is crap, but it's all I've got at the moment.
Anyway I'm all fired up again, so we'll see how the next month goes.
Cheers.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Sounds good keith, i'll be watching and waiting.


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## metalmad

Hi Keith
Looks like you got your mojo back Mate
Good one!
Pete


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

keith5700 said:


> I turned the engine over and gave the injector a squirt with the microswitch. It fired up straight away. There is no throttle of any sort, just the open tube.
> 
> Another interesting observation - hardly any smoke. So the smoke is mostly fuel and not oil.


 
With no throttle there is no intake vacuum to pull oil up past the rings into the combustion chamber.

Beautiful engine, can't wait to here and see it run.


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## moya034

Holy cow, just saw this thread for the first time. Great work Keith! Looking forward to seeing it finished.


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## keith5700

t.l.a.r. eng said:


> With no throttle there is no intake vacuum to pull oil up past the rings into the combustion chamber.



Darn it! I think a little test for tonite then.
I will fix the carb on top of the tube and use it as the throttle.
I know whereabouts the carb throttle was set, so I can just fix it at that position and adjust the injector to that amount of air.

Hope you're wrong but the more I think about it, the more likely it sounds.
Thanks.


----------



## John Rus

A V10, that would be sweet! Growing up my dad had a triton V10, smooth as butter and great throttle response. I will have to wipe the drool off the keyboard every time if you start that build thread!

John.


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## Lakc

Looks good Keith. I think your about to venture into that land of pulsewidth's and square waves. A simple 555 chip driving a transistor would be a start.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Keith,
I've been following along with some of your problems but to  this point haven't offered much as I really had no answers, until now.  First lets have a go at the ignition. When I first drew up and built my  V-8 I went with a point type distributor. This was mainly because there  was no model electronics around at the time, mid 80's. In trying to stay  close to scale with the distributor I naturally had to make a tiny set  of points. I found that they worked but due to the small size of the cam  I couldn't get enough dwell time so although the engine would start and  run the higher rpm's were limited. Some time after that I took a whole  different approach, still using points but with a totally different  design. I won't get into the details but suffice to say that the  improvement was marginal. Since I have gone to the Hall type trigger I  have had no problems. At first I had some blown Halls but that was due  to poor grounding with which I'm meticulous about today. I would  recommend you go with whatever system works best for you but I sure  wouldn't rule out the electronic route. 
Now to the next issue, the  smoke. Having followed you build since day 1 and knowing the detail and  and precision you have built into your engine I was really baffled by  this problem. Would an oil ring help, I can't say for sure but if both  compression rings seal good it shouldn't be that big of an issue. I do  notice that when I lose a plug on my V-8 that I will get a little fuel  smoke when I rev it up. It runs so clean that this is my indicator that  there is something else wrong. I have a wet sump with a full pressure  oil system. When the engine was originally built it would hold about 30  lbs. of oil pressure. Where it is now after countless hours of running I  have no idea. I hasn't frozen up yet and it makes no noises so I  suspect that it's still oiling. In a conventional push rod engine the  oil goes through the lifters and the pushrods to get to the rocker arms.  Not having hydraulic lifters I had to come up with another way of  getting oil to the top end. In the lifter valley I tapped holes into  both lifter oil galleys and ran an oil line up through the head into my  rocker shafts, my rockers are on a shaft. When I first got the engine  running well I had more smoke than I wanted and like you thought about  the rings but after running the engine for some time and the smoke  didn't go away I started looking elsewhere. What I found was that the  top end was getting too much oil and without any type of valve seals it  was being pulled through the valve guides. I do have oil return passages  in the heads and block. I put little restrictor plugs in the feed lines  but I could never get the smoking down to where I wanted it. I ended up  unhooking the feed lines and now I just put a squirt or two into the  shaft via the breathe caps before running. 
I know your engine has  overhead cams so my pushrod valving system is only to point out that  maybe your smoke is coming from your top end. I know from your pictures  that you have oil feed lines to the heads to lubricate the cams but  maybe you are having a similar problem to what I was having. With a bath  of oil slinging around in the upper end it doesn't take much for it to  be sucked into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke, even with  tight tolerances. Find an old engine with dried out valve seals and they  will puff oil all the time. 
I can't say for sure that this is your  problem but it's just food for thought. With all the work done on this  engine I personally would want to correct all the it's deficiencies  before jumping into another, otherwise you're going to go through the  same frustrations. 
gbritnell


----------



## smpstech

Lakc said:


> Looks good Keith. I think your about to venture into that land of pulsewidth's and square waves. A simple 555 chip driving a transistor would be a start.



555 timer would work excellently. You could affix a small potentiometer to your butterfly's and use that to control the frequency of the injector pulse.

Something like this:

http://www.555-timer-circuits.com/low-frequency-555-oscillator.html

Using a 1uf capacitor with one of the resistors being a potentiometer would give pretty good results. Idle would be firing the injector about once every 2.2 seconds if you use two 100K resistors. You can slow it down by using a larger value capacitor. Depending on how much amperage the injector pulls, you may be able to run it directly off the 555 timer. It can only deliver about 200ma, and at that point it would need to be well heatsinked.


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

Agree with gbritnell, anything that sees a vacuum from the cylinder can draw oil if there is oil present. If the piston rings are seating and compression is good, I would look at the upper engine first. Intake manifold gaskets are often overlooked as a source of oil consumption as the bottom of the manifold on most v-8 engines are open to oil in the lifter galley. Even too loose exhaust guides can lead to oil smoke.

Your problem may well be from the excessive oiling of the top of the engine. Maybe a metered restrictor in the top end oil feed would help.


----------



## LongRat

Superb progress here!  This is what I have been waiting to see.
Keith, what made you fit the tube in the path of the injector?  I wonder how it would run without that.  Seems to me that there is sufficient runner surface and intake tract for fuel to stick to (and keep your engine running for many revolutions after the injector pulse), that adding this tube in the airway might only serve as an air restriction and the extra atomisation might be of little consequence.  Or I might have completely misunderstood, what to you think?

Also, how are you pressurising your fuel?


----------



## keith5700

Just done a progress report but lost it again before I could click the button.
Will try later. Is it me or this forum??


----------



## ///

keith5700 said:


> Just done a progress report but lost it again before I could click the button.
> Will try later.


Damn! I'm always hanging out to see news on this build.
Really looking forward to the new update.


> Is it me or this forum??


I have lost a couple of posts too. I have now started highlighting and copying the message before hitting submit. If it fails I only need to paste in the copy and then try submitting again.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Keith,
There's something wrong with the forum. Yesterday I wrote a long answer to some of your questions. I made sure that I was logged in before doing so. When I got ready to post I thought "better copy this because I've had trouble before". Sure enough when I hit the reply button it said I wasn't a registered user but yet at the top of the page I was logged in. I had to relog in before I could post the message. This has been happening since the changeover and nobody seems to have an answer. It sure is frustrating to have to copy everything you want to post just to make sure you don't loose it, especially when it doesn't happen anywhere else. 
gbritnell


----------



## happykingkong

I'm surprised at you step by step to complete the engine manufacturing,Shocked me !

Cheering for you!~

Greetings from China
                                            happyKK


----------



## johnny1320

did you get your smoking problem repaired Keith?


----------



## keith5700

I had it running again tonite. It starts so easily with the injector.
All the top plenum is now fitted so the twin butterflys are restricting the airflow.
There is quite a bit of smoke still!
The reason isn't clear yet though.
George, only one side of the engine has the top oil pipe working yet, for the cams.This side does smoke more than the other.
but also one cylinder doesn't seem to be working on that side too, as the exhaust pipe is a lot cooler than the others.

So at the moment it could still be either oil or fuel.

I am using a full sized Walbro pump for the fuel. It is running at about 40psi.

I'm not sure a 555 timer type trigger would be much better than using a microswitch off the points cam?
What it needs is a trigger off the crank, or off a cam, to fire once every 2 revs, and then a potentiometer off the throttle shaft to vary the 'on' time of the pulse.
Of course this is the basic operation of some full sized engine ECUs, so that's no surprise.

I have no idea how to wire this up, so I'm currently trying to sell the Rivett lathe, so I can buy a Megasquirt ECU.
I am familiar with setting up and programming full sized car ECUs, so this seems to be the best way to go, for me.
It will also control the spark advance curve, etc.

I tried to purchase a 38g/min. injector from MBE motorsport, but they are out of stock.

Thanks for all the replies since my last posts, I take it all on board.
Cheers, Keith.


----------



## johnny1320

Hi Keith, if the side that has the oil feed connected is smoking, is it possible that oil is getting under the tappet and is being injected past the guide by the down force of the tappet? I am not sure of the clearance you are running around the tappet. The injection system sounds promising, when are we going to see a video of this jewel running, I don't care about a little smoke.
Cheers 

John


----------



## gadabout

Keith have you seen this site?
http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=about_this_project

regards
Mark


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## keith5700

John, when I designed the tappets I came up with a way which didn't hydraulic any oil down into the intake. I'll try and get a drawing up.
Mark, I came across that site a while ago and contacted the person involved. His name is Roger, and we have been in contact ever since. He's a proper nice bloke, and I believe he is a registered user on this site.

Some of his machining makes my effort look like I belong in the Stone Age, so I hate him really!

Keith.


----------



## gadabout

Keith,
 Ah good, thought he might be able to assist with the injection side of things, his workmanship is superb isn't it? Much like yours for sure!
regards
Mark


----------



## keith5700

Well I managed to sell some bits (not the lathe) and have bought a Megasquirt ECU MS2 Extra, which will control the injector,
and also, as a nice by product, will provide full spark control, rev limiter, etc.
I've just about got my head round the instructions, and have got the laptop talking to the ecu.

I am going to get all the sensors working on a dummy engine, (electric drill) before installing it all on the engine.

i have got the crank sensor working off an 8 tooth trigger wheel so far, although the coil packs don't seem to want to fire yet.
The built in MAP sensor works ok, so I need air and water temp sensors and throttle position sensor.

I have a narrowband O2 sensor but don't think that's worth installing on a small, smokey engine?

Hopefully some progress at last.
Cheers.


----------



## Lakc

Its not likely that the O2 sensor will ever stay at the constant high temperature necessary for proper readings. Plus, you have to have an absolutely leak proof exhaust path as well. 
Looks like you have a whole lot of fun ahead of you.


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## FannBlade

Even the engine stand is awesome!


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## jwcnc1911

This is over the top for a first project.  Wow!


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## LongRat

Keith, please post a video soon!  This looks absolutely amazing.  And very neat and tidy.  Personally I have never seen a model engine properly controlled with a real ECU and I think it may be a first.  This is the way to go, it will be the first of many.  Great achievement!


----------



## keith5700

Jeff, the O2 sensor is heated, so it may work, but judging by the amount of oily crap in the exhaust boxes I think it may bung the sensor up. If the ecu works well and I start to like the engine again then I'll strip it and make new pistons with an oil ring,
And maybe try and seal the valve guides a bit better.

Longrat, I am definately going to do a video, when its all together properly.
Hopefully in the near future.
I would like to see if its been worth going the injection way first. It may turn out to be an expensive waste of time!
If it works like it does in my head, then my next engine will have individual injectors and fuel rails, etc. that should look really cool.


----------



## Lakc

keith5700 said:


> Jeff, the O2 sensor is heated, so it may work, but judging by the amount of oily crap in the exhaust boxes I think it may bung the sensor up.



I think that heater is more of a "helper" rather then providing 100% required temperature, but your really into uncharted territory here.  

If you want to test it, plug the heater in on the bench, and hit the sensor tip with some argon or helium or any gas that has no oxygen in it. (propane?(be careful)) It should produce 1 volt based on the difference in oxygen between the pipe side and outside. 

If it works, great! Feel free to carefully remove the metal shield and squeeze the sensor into rather a long and skinny oval cross section of exhaust pipe. Thats going to be one seriously odd looking weld bung, however.  
Remember, absolutely no exhaust leaks allowed. Even the smallest leaks on full size motors always seem to wisp a little atmosphere right across that sensor. I think they were designed by gremlins....:wall:


----------



## robcas631

Terrific engine!


----------



## keith5700

Well, it was going ok till I powered up the coil packs. As soon as the sparks are working the laptop loses communication with the ecu.
After loads of searching and a few e-mails it turns out I need to be using resistor spark plugs, otherwise there's too much interference for the ecu to handle.
I've changed to carbon ht leads, which are 13k ohms, but these made no difference at all.
If I could figure out where to connect my oscilloscope leads I'd see if I could see the voltage spikes, and try and reduce them without having to somehow make resistor plugs.

I'm still trying to find out why you must have resistor plugs, which seem to be all around 5k, when I already have 13k leads.
Maybe the resistor has to be physically next to the spark?

Anyway, at the moment I'm so disappointed with this Megasquirt I really wished I hadn't bothered with it. It seems they're mega sensitive to voltage spikes, after reading the never ending pages of internet questions on the same subject.

I've no idea how I'm going to make resistor plugs, but at the moment it looks like either make the plugs, or sell the ecu and try and make some crude injector controller, and re-fit the dizzys.
What I don't want to do is spend ages designing and making new plugs, if they still don't work. That would be the last straw and the ecu would probably get a hammer through it.

You can probably tell I'm a bit hacked off with it all.
I think trying to see the spikes on the oscilloscope may be the best next step, and then try and cobble up a quick resistor plug and see if it reduces the interference.

Cheers.


----------



## Lakc

With coils like that you dont need to hook the scope leads up to anything, just lay them nearby and set the scope voltage gain. The early GM HEI ignition used a tin can formed to the top of the coil as an inductive pickup. 
*Resistor plugs are not going to help*, its the coil primary kick at around 400v mixxing with the secondary kick thats putting voltage across every wire within 3 feet. You have a classic RFI problem here, time to put on your electrical engineer thinking cap. 
The insulation on the plug wires looks good, grab some metal (brass preferably) screen and wrap the coils up with the plug wires sticking out the top. Ground the screen. Same with the coil drivers (CDI coils?). What your making is called a Faraday cage.
Fit all the powers and grounds to the ignition with several different sized small capacitors, 1nf, .01uf, etc. Dont bother ordering a bunch, scrap them from that old VCR your never going to use again. 
Make sure your grounds all go to a good mains ground. Use a 12v lead acid battery instead of any mains transformer or voltage supply. Batteries can suck up RFI really well if given a chance.
Next, get some ferrite beads from anywhere (like aforementioned VCR) and wrap the cable to the laptop in them. You can also wrap some grounded screen around the cable as well, it might help. 
If it still doesnt work, dont fret, they can be tricky but solvable, with more ingenuity then coin. Know any ham radio operators in your area?  They can be a great source of help if they have ever fought the "RF in the shack" battle.


----------



## keith5700

Thanks Jeff.
I'll see if I can get the scope to pick anything up just from the lead.
The stuff I've read elsewhere had a trace of the 12volts supplying the ecu. When the spark fired there was a spike of 80volts going up it.
I don't know enough about it at the moment to work out if the spikes are being generated from RFI in the airspace, or being generated in the actual engine and then being fed back to the ecu via the earth wires.

I'm going to try caging the coil packs tonite. Cheers.


----------



## doubletop

Keith

Still tagging along in the background watching this in awe. I saw your post from yesterday and for some reason woke up this morning thinking about it and Faraday cage and good earths came to mind. Looks like Jeff has beaten me to it and some more. 

As you won't be able to afford the gold sheet baking foil will do, (in fact I was told of a case of baking foil making into space....) Not on this though..







Anyway back on earth I did also think all that wiring could do with a bit of a tidy up. It could be adding to your EMC woes.

Pete


----------



## propclock

Just my 1.414 cents use and old cheap radio for your troubleshooting.
You will get instant feedback with your hands free to try new stuff. 
Just use your ears.
Much easier than looking at scope traces.
Resistor plugs were only made to stop am radio interference, I think.
Just have the radio going during any testing. 

Ferrites are my favorite solution for the tough ones.
But the radio has helped me many times with rf interference
even servo motor tuning. All pwm systems are broadcasters . Of course a coil
is a single pulse 

For what it's worth.

Protect your electronics until you have down to a reasonable noise level.


----------



## nfk

Hi Keith,
I've 'megasquirted' an old (1980!) Honda Accord a few years ago (and still running!) and found the same spark resistor issue you'r having right now.
After months of lecture and head scratching, I end up installing an EDIS 4 ignition controled by the mega ECU.
The RFI noise went away only after using the modules. (and i've tried all)
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm
For your application you would need an EDIS 8.

One of the benefits of using it is you won't need a distributor.

I can share i few notes about the megasquirt if you need any help, i've spend quite a lot of time troubleshooting and setting it for my car.
Fuel maps could be a pain!

Cheers,
Norberto


----------



## keith5700

Ok, one last go to get a post up without it getting lost!

I've tried the foil shielding, and ferrite rings, and capacitors on the ecu +ve, and 8k resistors on the plugs so far, but nothing will make the ecu communicate with the laptop when the engine starts turning.
Those of you who have had any dealings with stand alone ecus will know how difficult it would be to program fuel and ignition tables when you can't see where on the table the engine is running!

From my research so far, and talking to the seller, it seems the interference is ground based, ie feedback into the ecu, from the engine to ecu earth wires. ?? I've no idea.

Anyway, I got fed up with that and so put some best guess maps in for ignition and fuelling, and after an hour it started.
At the moment it runs at around 2000 rpm, regardless of where the throttle is, so it's obviously still a mile out.

On the plus side I now have a working electronic fuel injected V8. On the minus side, I wish I'd never bought the Megasquirt ecu.

Norberto, thanks for your post, I'll look into the Edis module. It would be great if this resolved the issues, although I'm still a bit skeptical that anything is ever going to cure it.
The ecu will control the engine, but it won't show any live info on the screen, which, really, is the whole point of it.
Then, to change any settings I have to reboot the ecu and restart the tuner program on the laptop.
This starts to wear a bit thin after a while.

A few pics, notice the ptfe spark plug doesn't look like it's going to last very long.


----------



## Lakc

Well, progress is progress, you have at least proved your concept of getting an electronic fuel injected motor running. 
There are nearly an infinite number of ways to tackle RFI problems, and most of the solutions are very dependent on the actual situation. I once used a ground rod in a well watered potted plant, so its difficult to tell much beyond the basics without "being there". 
Take a break and celebrate your success!


----------



## propclock

Those sure look like inductors and not resistors to me. I am probably wrong though.


----------



## doubletop

keith5700 said:


> Ok, one last go to get a post up without it getting lost!
> 
> ......................., and talking to the seller, it seems the interference is ground based, ie feedback into the ecu, from the engine to ecu earth wires. ??



Keith

I think we are all suggesting a similar thing here. Get everything that should be at ground 0V well strapped down to one common point, including the foil. Don't daisy chain things together and use decent sized cables and make sure of good connections.  When you've got say 25Kv in the system even a few milli ohms of resistance in a connection can have a good few volts across it when most of your PC components are running on  just 3v. 

You'll get there

Pete


----------



## doubletop

Well there's me being a smart arse and then I looked at your post again












Pete


----------



## Lakc

propclock said:


> Those sure look like inductors and not resistors to me. I am probably wrong though.


On the sparkplugs? They seem to be the old 1/4 watt resistors, although they may be wire wound type and still have some inductance. Not something you want to put on a tuned circuit in a sensitive radio receiver but for this purpose probably not an issue. 
The two round whiteish components taped together appear to be coils or capacitors for a CDI type ignition?


----------



## keith5700

The spark plug resistors are ordinary carbon 8k type. The 2x capacitors are connected between the live feed to the coil packs and earth. The Megasquirt manual recommends putting them on, as per full sized practice, although I'm wondering if they should be electrolytic type.
They are non polarised, 25uF 400 volt type off a motor.
The resistors made no difference so they are now off.
The caps make no difference whether they're on or not.
I've seen an edis 8 for £60 so may try that, but haven't got money at the moment, so I'm just making a bench for the Rivett lathe.
Cheers.


----------



## keith5700

Well, I finally got it to work, by using a different laptop. I've just put a video up on youtube so hopefully this link will work - 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGXo5HwIHk&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGXo5HwIHk&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]


----------



## John Rus

Beautiful engine! Glad you were finally able to make it run properly. 

So what is your next project, the throttle I guess for now?

Cheers,
John.


----------



## dsage

Very nice. Sounds really good. (although I'm partial to the un-muffled sound myself)
SO get us up to speed here Keith.
What about the smoke, carburetor, plugs, burned head gasket (or whatever), ignition coil, points vs electronic, fuel injection etc. etc. etc. that you have been writing about.
Seems you jumped a few chapters somewhere. Maybe I missed something.
Inquiring minds need to know how all that was solved.

Good work.

Sage


----------



## LongRat

How stable is that idle?!  That machine is butter smooth, it runs amazingly Keith!  Plus I got the first comment on your Youtube vid! 
Now I'd also love to hear the technical parts about how you solved your problems.


----------



## keith5700

Hi all, there's not much missed out, I gave up on it for a while after the Megasquirt problems, and did something else for a while.
Last week I got my old laptop out and tried that on the Megasquirt, and amazingly it worked, ie. no lost communication between Msquirt and laptop.

So then I just carried on from where I left off, put some approx fuel and timing maps in and fired it up.

It still puts a lot of smoke out, but that's only going to get fixed with different pistons and rings.

Oh one thing I changed was to control it by throttle position sensor instead of manifold pressure sensor. There's nowhere near enough manifold vacuum to use the map sensor option. There is a small trim pot on the throttle shaft acting as the throttle pos sensor.

I've learnt a lot along the way, and when I've got a bit more time I'll put all my thoughts down on here, like what worked ok and what I would change next time around.

I'm starting the V10 at the moment. Just roughing out the pistons first. I'll start another thread for that when there's something to show.

I need to do some fine tuning on the v8 next, but I need a fuel cooler first. The engine dies after a few mins as the fuel heats up from the pump, and starts to aerate and thus drops the pressure.
Cheers.


----------



## FannBlade

WOW! i can't stop watching the video. Sharing it with everyone I know.

Keep up the great work!!!!!


----------



## Art K

Keith,
Longrat wasn't kidding when he said it ran butter smooth. This is an amazing accomplishment. Stock cars around here used to have the fuel line run through a can filled with ice, good luck with the fuel cooler.
Art


----------



## doubletop

Keith

What else can I say? - Outstanding!!!

Pete


----------



## Henry

That is symphony! I love the sound, I am been checking every day only to see this, I have been all the time along with you and your art, this is not a normal work, it is a jewel! My deepest congratulations for this amazing piece.


----------



## Lakc

A hearty congrats to you!
Well done, looks absolutely beautiful and runs the same. A lesson in perseverance you have taught us all!:bow:


----------



## Niceonetidy

More than words can say, wonderfull

Well done

Colin


----------



## hadifarnoud

wow, I wish I could buy a 1/4 scale V8 engine like this  how many horse power does it produce?


----------



## John Rus

Well actually you can buy one from Conely Precision,  but it's goin to run ya a pretty penny. But for the amount of work it takes to build one its not bad. He has power figures for his engines to give you an idea what the best reliable power you can see. But power is realy secondary for model engines, beauty and sound come first. And self expression.

Cheers,
John.


----------



## jgilmoreco

I too am building a V-8, however, I'm new to this site and haven't figured out how to post pictures yet.  Would be very interested in your procedure for making the crank.  I'm working on rods and pistons right now, but hear nothing but horror stories from members of my club on making the crank.  Keep up the good work.                 john


----------



## John Rus

Hi there John!

It would be great if you could to tell us a little about yourself in the welcome section and we would LOVE to see your progress on your V8! We just can't get enough of them around here.

And as aways with a build thread th_wwp Thm:


At Keith, 
I said it before and I'll say it again, your V8 is simply a work of art and an insperation to us all! I can't wait to see the start of your V10!

Regards,
John.


----------



## dsage

Hi John:

Welcome aboard.
When you get to making cams and, if you are equipped with a CNC mill, I'd be glad to have to as a tester of our new CNC cam grinding program. See the thread here:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f26/grinding-cams-cnc-program-beta-test-21127/

The program is working really well now but we're having a problem finding people to try it out so we can get some feedback on the operation.

Let me know if you need some help.
I'm looking forward to your build. Keep us posted with a link when you start your build thread so we can follow along.

Thanks

Sage


----------



## jgilmoreco

Hi Dsage:  Sorry, but I have a manual Bridgeport.  However, I do have a tabletop CNC machine made by DYNA, that I am just starting to try and learn.  My CAD and CAM programs are Geomagic, (Formerly Alibre). I plan on using it for the rods, pistons, rocker arms, and anything else that I have to make a bunch of.  I'm going to try and upload pictures of mine so far tonite.


----------



## dsage

I assume you mean a desktop CNC mill?

We have one guy grinding cams on a Sherline (which is pretty small) so that shouldn't be a limitation. Keep it in mind and if you'd like to try it out, join the Yahoo group and let me know if you need any help.

Sage


----------



## johnny1320

Hey Keith, I just saw your engine on the discovery channel, way to go!


----------



## stevehuckss396

johnny1320 said:


> Hey Keith, I just saw your engine on the discovery channel, way to go!



What show was it on?


----------



## johnny1320

Discovery Canada Steve


----------



## johnny1320

It's a science show and they mentioned it trending on you tube and talked about his next project the V10


----------



## keith5700

Blimey, that was quick. I only finished their questionnaire midday yesterday.
Hope I didn't come across as some sort of weirdo? Some of the questions they asked were a bit odd. No £££ tho.

Yes V10 next. I'll start a new thread soon for that one. Cheers.


----------



## johnny1320

No you didn't come across as a weirdo, lol, it was a nice short bit. Looking forward to the V10.


----------



## FannBlade

Be sure to post a link to the build when is goes live.

Congrats on the TV blitz!


----------



## keith5700

Right, just a couple more pics and then I'll wrap this one up.
As some of you will have picked up on, I'm doing a V10 next, which means I probably won't get much more finished on the V8, unless things change.

I've obviously learnt a lot over the past 3 years, and I'll pass everything on during the V10 build.
Thanks for the help, and, more importantly,the encouragements along the way.

Pics show the fuel feed and vacuum pipes and the 24 tooth trigger wheel and crank position sensor. Cheers.


----------



## crazytoon666

i wish i was as good as you 
where abouts in the uk are you?


----------



## jgilmoreco

Hi Crazytoon:  Sorry, I don't live in the UK. I live in the US near San Francisco.


----------



## Graybeard1952

I think I've just had an involuntary emission listening to that sweet engine !!!
th_confused0052


----------



## doubletop

johnny1320 said:


> Discovery Canada Steve



Did anybody up there record it? Is the clip posted to Youtube (or elsewhere) so those of us down here can see it as well? Otherwise Keith will have finished the V10 before it gets on to our Disco channel.

Pete


----------



## johnny1320

Keith nadir posted to YouTube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7EGXo5HwIHk


----------



## doubletop

Thanks Johnny; I had seen that clip, I was asking if the clip from the Discovery channel had been posted anywhere.

Pete


----------



## AlaricoA55

Buona giornata a tutti ,vorrei realizzare il V8 descritto in  pagine, e un modello stupendo realizzato con molta passione e moltissimo ingegno realizzativo. Vorrei realizzarlo e possibile avere il progetto. In attesa di una risposta saluti dall' ITALIA ALARICO A.


----------



## AlaricoA55

Nuova IMAIL [email protected]


----------



## jsmcortina

Keith,
when you were having Megasquirt problems did you ask for help on the Megasquirt MSEXTRA support forum?

If I'd known about your problems and your unbelievably amazing engine, I might have been able to come round and help.

James


----------



## 18loganmiller

would you mind sharing these plans im only 15 and i would like to build my own rc ford svt raptor with a real working motor in it


----------



## bobden72

Great work, be proud.


----------



## keith5700

Hello Strangers.

This may be of interest. shows the V8 again, with different silencers, and progress on the V10.
Turned out the V8 was only running on 7, so sounds a bit rough.
Cheers, Keith.

http://youtu.be/RUv1hv7g7WA


----------



## LongRat

Top work Keith, that V10 looks tantalising.  Love the subtle anodised highlights.


----------



## lion_china

Hello I am a CNC technology professional teachers, very interested in my students to your work, could I have detailed drawings of works for you gave me? From China


----------



## keith5700

Sure, no problem. Give me your e-mail and I'll send all 250 sheets of drawings and calculations straight over.


----------



## aonemarine

keith5700 said:


> Sure, no problem. Give me your e-mail and I'll send all 250 sheets of drawings and calculations straight over.



 Hey since your just giving it away, send me a set, but imncrease the font size to about 3/8" letters, make sure to include full color pictures perferably 8" x 10"
Oh and some material...yep going to need some material....Oh parts,  yes send all the parts too, perferably assembled...and fuel, going to need some fuel to run it...maybe a gallon or so.  Im going to need to borrow your computer too, so if you can send that, yep that would be great!!  Thanks in advance, ill go sit and stare at my mail box now and wait for it all to arrive...
  You are going to use same day shipping right?


----------



## belief

Very much like your model to provide a complete set of drawing it? I want to come out, installed on the remote Tank.This is my email: [email protected]


----------



## belief

aonemarine said:


> Hey since your just giving it away, send me a set, but imncrease the font size to about 3/8" letters, make sure to include full color pictures perferably 8" x 10"
> Oh and some material...yep going to need some material....Oh parts,  yes send all the parts too, perferably assembled...and fuel, going to need some fuel to run it...maybe a gallon or so.  Im going to need to borrow your computer too, so if you can send that, yep that would be great!!  Thanks in advance, ill go sit and stare at my mail box now and wait for it all to arrive...
> You are going to use same day shipping right?



Hi, friends. You received a sketch?;&#65289;


----------



## mu38&Bg#

The sarcasm is lost in translation.


----------



## Tin Falcon

> Yea Im Chinese engineer will take 2000 hours of work from american hobbyist, for flea and make huge profit for mine boss.




I work here for free and can make Chinese free loaders disappear from the forum.
Tin


----------



## jason-H

HI,KEITH,  are you online ?
  nice to meet you .  I'm  jason.
I&#8216;m a student  and i very intertested your V8 , but  i didn't finsh my V6 engine yet ,so could i have detailed drawings of works for you gave me?
my english not good..!
I hope you understand me .
FROM  CHINA. 
my  email [email protected]

I HOPE receive your  reversion&#12290;
Thanks&#12290;                                                   2015.4.2


----------



## mecadam

keith5700 said:


> Sure, no problem. Give me your e-mail and I'll send all 250 sheets of drawings and calculations straight over.



Hy, im a french machinist, and im a builder engine model hobby.
do you have draw or cad model of your engine please? (SOLIDWORKS)
TANKS SO MUCH! 
[email protected]


----------



## keith5700

ok, whilst I am getting all the drawings together, could you send us some links to your previous model building projects, to see if my plans would be suitable for you?
Cheers, Keith.


----------



## Swifty

Kar, I would love to see a picture of the CNC milling machine that you made, I'm always thinking about making one as well.

Paul.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

The fun never ends.


----------



## mecadam

Hi' my 3 cylinders radial , &#9786;
and i have a flat-twin but no photo now....


----------



## keith5700

I have had a look through my drawings and sketches, and realise that it would take far too long to get them into a state where someone else could make a working engine from them.
I'm afraid I don't have the time, or incentive, to sort it all out, so, apologies to the genuine posters, but there are no drawings available for this engine.
Cheers.


----------



## canadianhorsepower

KAR said:


> Started wit blower



Just curious why don't you start your OWN thread instead of Hi Jacking someone else :hDe:


----------



## ICEpeter

KAR,
if you want your posts removed, why don't you do it yourself?

Peter J.


----------



## Swifty

Kar, 

"OUCH", I don't know what upset you so much, I cannot see anything wrong with the suggestion by a long standing member that you start your own build log. I went back through your previous posts and cannot see the reason you said was there for posting.

Paul.


----------



## OldRon

belief said:


> Hi, friends. You received a sketch?;&#65289;



Is your dog's name Stew?


----------



## belief

OldRon said:


> Is your dog's name Stew?


My dog, its name bandits. It is very cute, very clever. I like it very much.
I have not received the drawings, friend, if you have, please reply to me, thank you


----------



## belief

KAR said:


> my cobra


Great project, awesome


----------



## johnny666

Hello Keith5700:
   My name is Johnny.
   Im so like model engine,when I saw your V8 model engine,I'm very interested.
   So,I decide to made a V8 model engine.
   But,When I was in the design of the camshaft, I have some difficulties.
    Can you tell me your e-mail address? because I can't insert image at here.I hope you can teach me.
   Thank you very much.
   Best regards!


----------



## johnny666

Dear keith:
    I'm so interested your V8 model engine.and I've start build my V8 model engine.
    Could you give me your all 250 sheets of drawings and calculations straight over?
     I'm so appreciate,and I really hope you can teach me made my V8 model  engine.
     Here's my model engine some drawings.
     Now,I have some difficult,I can't completed,I need you help.
     Thank you so much.
     Best regards!View attachment ImageUploadedByModel Engines1440169258.891020.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByModel Engines1440169283.989630.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByModel Engines1440169306.623309.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByModel Engines1440169326.234901.jpg


----------



## keith5700

Johnny, I haven't got a full set of drawings available to send out I'm afraid.
I can send you some cad drawings of specific areas of the engine if this would help.
Can I suggest you start your own build thread, where you can tell everyone who you are and whereabouts you are in your project?
I'm sure myself, and others, will be very willing to help if we can.
Cheers.


----------



## johnny666

Dear Keith:
         I'm from SHENZHEN,China.
         I'm appreciated you can give me CAD drawing.
         My email address:[email protected]
         Thanks so much.
         Have a nice day!


----------



## kolinmayne

Hi there, I see that the build is complete on many websites. Is there a kit you can buy to make this or anything? Really interested in owning one myself. Thanks, Kolin

[email protected]


----------



## DiegoVV

kolinmayne said:


> Hi there, I see that the build is complete on many websites. Is there a kit you can buy to make this or anything? Really interested in owning one myself. Thanks, Kolin
> 
> [email protected]



First message and asking someone to send you the result of his efforts!

Are you going to participate or once you get what you came for, you ill run away?

I hope no one  gets offended by my message, but as a machinists community there are some behaviours I am not comfortable with.


----------



## deboom_j

DiegoVV said:


> First message and asking someone to send you the result of his efforts!
> 
> Are you going to participate or once you get what you came for, you ill run away?
> 
> I hope no one  gets offended by my message, but as a machinists community there are some behaviours I am not comfortable with.



I'm not offended, I agree totally.  People are always asking "where can I buy one" etc, etc, especially in thecomment sections on youtube.  

I'm always tempted to say getting an engine is simple really, just go to a community college or a technical school and take a machining course for 1-2 years.  Then buy 10k or 20k or more of machine tools, and spend the next 10 years getting good at using them, and all the support equipment that goes along.  Then simply spend a 1000+ hours building yourself an engine like this (at this point, you have an "engine kit").  It really is that easy.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who gets offended when some rich person whips out there wallet, credit card, check book, whatever and starts trying to offer something so impersonal, for such a personal object.

End of rant

John

Edit:  Just to provide a little help to the guy looking for a V8 kit, I'm not aware of any right now.  In the past something may  have been offered, but since this is not a high profit business, small start up companies have a tendency to come and go, mostly go. If you want a complete engine, go talk to Connelly, who's been building engines for sale for quite a while now (his engines are very under valued imo, (I mean he's not charging enough for them).


----------



## keith5700

I think the last two messages sum it up quite well.
Most of the requests for plans seem to come from China, although I can't imagine what they'd do with them!

I would happily sell the V8 and probably the V10 for the right price, but the most I've been offered for the V8 is £200 and the chap seemed quite put out when I declined.


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## stevehuckss396

Thats $292 USD  What are you waiting for!!!


I feel your pain. I had the same reaction for a 50 dollar set of drawings.  Thats only 57 cents a page. The people who don't build seem to have no concept of what it takes. 

Shake it off knowing that your undertaking was huge and the outcome was spectacular.


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## 1dbweldor

Don't you just love, The free enterprise entitlement attitude of the modern world.


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## RiekieRhino

People always would like to have everything.  But not willing to do what it takes. Yes I want one of these. But that is why I bought the set of drawings which in my eyes are very good. Although I have to do it over in metric.  Yes I have not started my actaul build yet as I am only saving to buy my machines now. I have machines at work. But don't want to rush parts off on them just to be able to say I have done something.  This engine is a work of art and you need to spend the time and do it right. Once I can finally start my build, I will start a thread to give you my progress

Thanks to all of you who inspires me with your builds


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## FannBlade

stevehuckss396 said:


> That's $292 USD  What are you waiting for!!!/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Great price!! Now I can start my 1/4 scale 6 engine pulling tractor!
> Oh yea I will need 3 dual bell housing units with input and output on the middle one....another $50 each should cover those. :hDe:
> 
> Seriously keep up the great work,I'm really intrigued with the mini bike build.


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## Hammerdon

I think this is my first post here but I lurk alot. 
I bought Steves plans and have the block and 
one head almost done. The only reason I haven't 
got more done is that I got a new G4003g lathe 
and I'm still setting it up. I think what Steve charges 
for his plans is a very good price. People need to 
set down and look at the time it takes to draw these
and even more , think them up. 
  I've also been looking at this v-8 project on a daily 
basis and if someone had offered me that kind of 
money for what has been put into it I would have been 
very offended. This engine is beautiful. 


   Don


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## michael-au

Hammerdon said:


> I think this is my first post here but I lurk alot.
> I bought Steves plans and have the block and
> one head almost done. The only reason I haven't
> got more done is that I got a new G4003g lathe
> and I'm still setting it up. I think what Steve charges
> for his plans is a very good price. People need to
> set down and look at the time it takes to draw these
> and even more , think them up.
> I've also been looking at this v-8 project on a daily
> basis and if someone had offered me that kind of
> money for what has been put into it I would have been
> very offended. This engine is beautiful.
> 
> 
> Don




Hi Don
I have also got Stevens plans, I'm currently building the peewee, but when it's done I will start on the V8
Would be nice to see a build log of your engine, if you wanted to start one that is

Michael


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## ///

michael-au said:


> I have also got Stevens plans


Same, the plans are worth every cent at twice the price.
I got in early with the idea to 3D model and convert to metric (I hate imperial sooooo much) life got in the way ..... will get around to it eventually 

EDIT: Wish I could condense Steve's build thread (weed out all the noise) into a PDF for my reference when I do get around to building, just in-case the thread dies or the photo's go missing, but man what a job.


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## DickInOhio

absolutely beautiful work.


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## neil_1821

Lovely build. I always find myself coming back to this thread thinking, once my hoglets built I will take the plunge! Although I foresee many problems milling given the minimal travel on the machine bed we have.

I also find the attitudes of the modern world rather frustrating. Although I'm of the younger generation many people seem to have the attitude of "I want it and I want it now". Many products are mass produced giving inferior quality at a cheaper price, thus when they break they'll throw them away. Given that society seems to revolve around the throw away attitude it applies to everything from the engines we craft to relationships with others and everything in between.


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## rodolfobouzon

Hello keith5700, I have long wanted to make a mini v8 engine but I do not know how to start, I suppose a general plan helped me a lot. Can you give me a hand so I can start?
Greasy


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## OldRon

keith5700,

Your project is very inspirational. I have always wanted to build miniature V8 but I don't have clue for how to do it on my Harbor Freight drill press. Would it be asking to much if I was to ask you to just give me your engine? You can always build another one for yourself. The engine must be running and you must have all of the bugs worked out of it. I want to tell people that I built the engine so you must agree to not expose me as a fraud. I will pay for the shipping. 

Ship to:

Freddy Freeloader
12345 S. Deadbeat St.
Lazyville, Koontucky 76849


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## Shipdisturber

Purrs like a kitten, thanks Kieth!


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## e.picler

Hello Keith 5700!
I followed your build of the V10 and V8 closely. It is a spectacular craftsman work as well as the design. Congratulations you are an artist.

I have purchased the plans for the Steve`s V8 but did not started on it yet. I`m getting good projects for when having available time to build all these piece of Jewelry. I`m currently building the Tiny 4 in line from Kelly design in a very slow pace. 

Do you have the V8 on carburetor version? I would be glad to purchase the plans from you on `carburetor` version, I do not have enough knowledge do build it on fuel injection.

Thanks,

Edi


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## jason-H

keith5700 said:


> Hi all,
> I recently started designing a small petrol V8 engine, as I've allways fancied building one. I discovered this site and read what people were doing, especially Stevehuckss, and decided my plans were rubbish. So I've designed a much more intricate engine, compared to my first attempt, and have been machining for about 6 weeks.
> 
> Whilst I have taken pics at every step I won't put all the pictures up, as Steve is doing an superb job of chronicling a V8 build. I will be happy to answer any questions in the future however. This is being built with manual machines only. I think CNC machines are great, but I haven't got one.
> 
> Going to try and upload some pics now, of progress to date.





keith5700 said:


> Johnny, I haven't got a full set of drawings available to send out I'm afraid.
> I can send you some cad drawings of specific areas of the engine if this would help.
> Can I suggest you start your own build thread, where you can tell everyone who you are and whereabouts you are in your project?
> I'm sure myself, and others, will be very willing to help if we can.
> Cheers.





keith5700 said:


> Johnny, I haven't got a full set of drawings available to send out I'm afraid.
> I can send you some cad drawings of specific areas of the engine if this would help.
> Can I suggest you start your own build thread, where you can tell everyone who you are and whereabouts you are in your project?
> I'm sure myself, and others, will be very willing to help if we can.
> Cheers.


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## jason-H

？


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## jason-H

Your work is great! I also like this job very much. I had some problems designing the intake valve. Can you help me? Can you send me an intake valve drawing? I hope you can reply to me


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## rodolfobouzon

Hello Friend, your work is admirable, you are a teacher.
I have been wanting to make one for a while but I can not get the plans, can you tell me where I can find information?
Many thanks in advance and congratulations.


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## jason-H

keith5700 said:


> Luc, I've had a vacuum gauge on it. This was in place of the carb, not from a manifold tap with the carb installed. It pulled just over 2"hg, which is 3-4psi, at around 1000rpm.
> I realise a 50cc V8 won't pull anything like the vacuum a single cylinder 50cc would, but I don't know if that vacuum will pull any fuel through that carb.
> Or if that's a normal vacuum for this size of engine.
> Then again, it won't even bang once with an ether based fuel, which leads me to think the problem is ignition based.


Hello! I like your engine very much. Can I give you the angle drawing of the four camshaft of this engine?


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## keith5700

hello everyone.
This thread gets weirder all the time.


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## jason-H

keith5700 said:


> hello everyone.
> This thread gets weirder all the t
> 
> ime.


Is the cam angle like this?


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## QSRP

Keith
What a great job you did.  I just ran across your build thread and also watched your video.  I am very interested in knowing more about your copy grinder attachment for the lathe that you used to make the Cams.  Did you find plans somewhere for this on how to build one or did you just come up with it on your own.  Can you explain in a little more detail as to how it works and maybe a few more detailed pictures?  I keep trying to picture it in my head on how it actually works but I can't seem to figure it out.  Again, you do very excellent work.  I look forward to checking out your V10 build thread next.  Have a great one.

Cheers
Pat


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## retailer

You've done a great job on that motor Keith it look fabulous and I'm a little envious. Building a working V8 miniature is something I'd dearly love to do and the obvious thing would be to purchase plans such as those offered by Steve Huck but there is something bothering me, I believe Steve used some CNC machinery and I do not have or intend to to have any type of CNC  machines in the future - is the Little Demon do able with out CNC gear.


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## stevehuckss396

Bob Shutt in Ohio built a running Demon using nothing but manual machines. Some parts were made less ornamental but it is  nice looking engine that runs well.


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## keith5700

QSRP said:


> Keith
> What a great job you did.  I just ran across your build thread and also watched your video.  I am very interested in knowing more about your copy grinder attachment for the lathe that you used to make the Cams.  Did you find plans somewhere for this on how to build one or did you just come up with it on your own.  Can you explain in a little more detail as to how it works and maybe a few more detailed pictures?  I keep trying to picture it in my head on how it actually works but I can't seem to figure it out.  Again, you do very excellent work.  I look forward to checking out your V10 build thread next.  Have a great one.
> 
> Cheers
> Pat


Hi, let me dig the drawings out, as I can't remember what I did at the moment. It was something I came up with on my own. It worked great though, I remember that.


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## keith5700

Retailer, I wouldn't let lack of cnc put you off Steve's plans. Just work round the problems as they occur. Most things can be made without cnc, although it is a lot trickier sometimes. I've never used any cnc.
Look at the complex shapes George Britnell creates using manual machines.


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## retailer

Keith and Steve thanks for the words of encouragement, I'm 2/3rds through a Quorn cutter grinder at present, I've had the castings for almost 30yrs sitting under my bench and am hesitant to start another metalwork project until the Quorn is finished in case it spends another 5 yrs sitting under the bench, but once it's done I think I'll make a V8 my next major project.


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## QSRP

Keith
Thanks for responding to my post.  I wasn't sure if you would since the thread is so old.  Any information you could share on your copy grinder would be appreciated.  There is no rush though because I have 2 unrelated projects I need to complete before I can start any engine build.  When I get ready to start my build I will start a new build thread to document everything.  I know I will not be able to come close to the level of work you do.  Your work is just superb.
Thanks and have a great day
Pat


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## doc1955

I built the Demon and I'm pretty sure it could have been done without an NC machine. The NC just made things a little less repetitive on some of the things but I don't see anything that could not be done on a conventional mill and lathe.


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## baomingming

Hi KEITH
I am Bao Mingming, I am also an engine enthusiast. Can you give me a copy of the V8 and V10 engine drawings? Email: [email protected]. look forward to your reply. Thank you.


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## doc1955

No they are copyright but you can purchase them from 
https://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Demon-V8-Working-Model-Engine-PLANS-Printed-Demon_V8_Plans_P.html


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## JohnH

Keith5700,

Hello, I'm new to this site and only joined to ask you some questions about your 1/4 scale V8. I was going to build the little deamon, but I saw your build on YouTube and was hooked. My issue is the only plans I can find to purchase are for the little deamon. 
Would you consider selling me a copy of your plans or models? It would be built in my garage and displayed proudly lol. 
My email is [email protected] if you would like to talk further.

Thank you!


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## JohnH

After exploring this site for a while I'm really glad i joined, some amazing models here and lots of knowledge in the community. I think I'll go ahead and build the little deamon first afterall and then, hopfully I'll find a way to contact you Keath5700 and buy your engine plans. 
Anyway looking forward to years of fun here!


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## stevehuckss396

I don't think Keith has plans available for sale. If i remember correctly he sold the V8 engine. He has been working on a V10 in an RC vehicle. He pops in from time to time.


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## JohnH

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info.
I'll have to get a hold of him and see what he has avalable for the V8. I have seen the compleated V10 on you tube and its awesome. 
The little deamon is also a great engine, I'll probably scale it up a bit but I hope to start building it soon.


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## stevehuckss396

I have seen 2 builds at 1.5X scale and a completed at 2X. The 2X was huge.


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## JohnH

That 200CC is a work of art! Is that the 2X scale version? That's about the size I want to make.


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## stevehuckss396

Yes that's the 2X. The block is almost 10 inches front to back. Its a monster.


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## daz59

stevehuckss396 said:


> I have seen 2 builds at 1.5X scale and a completed at 2X. The 2X was huge. View attachment 116161



Nice looking engine. How did the 2x scale sound? Ive just started a 2x myself.

Darren


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## JohnH

I'll start with the 2X but I'll add the blower. Love that look!


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## stevehuckss396

It sounds great. Next time I see him i'll try to get some video. We live about 4 hours apart. We were supposed to meet up last weekend but was canceled for obvious reasons.


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## Art K

Hey Steve,
I think I can help with that, I've got a video from the 2019 Zanesville show.

Art


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## stevehuckss396

That's it! Look how big it is.


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