# Tiny Inline 4 Cylinder IC



## kcmillin

After Making the Tiny IC I have decided to make a 4 Cylinder Inline version using the same working dimensions. (Bore-Stroke-Valve Size and lift.) But one main difference is the intake valve will be controlled by the cam instead of Automatic like the Tiny IC

I am Going With an OHV design, I have not decided how to cool it yet, I did not leave enough material to cut fins in the block, and my water cooling design is still in the works, I may have jumped the gun making the block, well see how it turns out.

OK I have been talking about it long enough and now its time do some Millin'!!

I had to get creative with my design, Because the entire block HAS to come out of a 2" round bar of aluminum. (I have a bunch of it) 

I started by making a square shape, Although none of the sides are equal length.






Then I started to make the funky shaped bearing and oil pan surface. (It is shaped this way because the size of the parent bar was very limiting)





Here it is mated with the oil pan.





Now it is time to hollow out the oil pan and provide the necessary clearance for the crank.





The finished oil Pan.









And here it is on the Block





Drilling the camshaft tunnel.





Milling the crankcase.









Drilling the holes and finishing with a boring bar.





I used an end mill to rough the size out due to clearance. 





boring the holes. There are three different diameters in each cylinder. (To make pressing and fitting easier.









Drilling the push rod holes. (Most of this will be milled away.





Now its time to make the Bearing caps. I decided to just make the holes to the right size and distance, and then finish them while installed in the block.





















Drilling the crank journals.














Now it is time to finish milling the blocks.


























And here is the "Mostly" finished block.









And a bit of scale.






Thus far, I am two weeks into the project, and 50% of the engine does not even exist on paper yet, I got anxious to do some millin', and in my hast I forgot to drill the required holes for the water jackets. :wall:

Thats it for now, Going to get to work on the head, But I need to tram my mill first, the finish on the block is less than satisfactory due to out of tram condition. 

Kel


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## GailInNM

Kel,
Looks like fun.  Great start. I am sure that a lot of people will be watching.
Gail in NM


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## bearcar1

th_confused0052

You are killing me here! Kel, that is a great piece of work. This is going to really, REALLY be an interesting one to watch unfold. Has there been any thought to putting drawings together or are you using the old 'scribbles on the dining linens' approach that most of us use? ;D
I like your approach in carving out that c'case too. Thank you for sharing the images of what is surely to be a great running engine. Thm:

BC1
Jim


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## Troutsqueezer

What a cool lookin' little engine that is, Kel. I hope you will draw up the plans real nice so we can make one too. :bow:

-trout


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## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
Nice start on your 4 cylinder engine. As far as cooling it you can cut a pocket on the side of the block opposite the valve side. This will go in a little past the bores to provide water flow around the sleeves. You can then make a cover plate for the side of the block to seal it up. 
gbritnell


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## coopertje

Wow....thats some real piece of work! I admire your machining skills and for sure I will follow along your build. 

Happy machining, regards Jeroen


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## kustomkb

Great start Kel!

Looking really good. I'll be following along for sure.


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## SAM in LA

Kel,

You are off to a great start. You make it seem so easy, but I know better.

How about an evaporative cooling system. Build a catch pan below the engine and pump water over the engine and let it run down on the outside.

I will be following this build closely.

SAM


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## zeeprogrammer

Wow Kel. You're really moving along. Nice!


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## kcmillin

Thanks Gail, Jim, Dennis, George, Jeroen, Kevin, Sam, and Carl!!

Gail, Fun is an understatement, I am having the time of my life. I hope to complete them by Christmas, So there should be plenty of pics (Finger Crossed) That is quite optimistic, but it will be the longest build I have undertaken. I Still have a lot of design work to do, and I have been working on the block design for a month. 

Jim and Dennis, I have a Solid Edge 2D .dft file of everything I am building so far. It is quite messy and incomplete, but all the dimensions can be taken with the program. If you have solid edge 2D I can send you the file. If you dont have the program it is available for free, but they do make you fill out some consumer report form before downloading it, but it is a complete program given away by the company that created it because 3D is so popular. 

I love the program and virtually all of my X-Y co-ordinance used for milling and locating holes are taken with almost no math involved.

Sadly I wont have time till these are done to create a good set of plans.

George, Great idea, I was thinking something similar, plus this will add visual interest to the side of the engine.

Sam, Great Idea, that would indeed add some intrigue to the engine, however 
I may be putting these in some kind of R/C car/truck/tank/boat.

Thanks again everyone for subscribing to the Tiny Inline thread, I hope not to let anyone down. I may or May not meet my deadline, these could take awhile.

Kel


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## Deanofid

Really neat, Kel. This looks like it will be a great build!

Dean


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## putputman

Lookin great Kel!!!!!! This is really going to be a fun one to watch. 

It always looks so easy on that big computer screen but it looks a lot different in the milling vise.


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## cfellows

Wow, that's some nice work, Kel! That little engine should be a screamer!

I know what you mean about getting the itch to cut metal. I've been wanting to get started doing actual work on my hot tube engine, but, unlike other projects, I'm determined not to start until I have all the parts figured out (and drawn!). However, it hasn't stopped me from buying some material, which I may or may not wind up using!

Chuck


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## Lakc

Thats a great start! Cant wait to see the rest of it.


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## ariz

wow, this is another great thread that I can't miss
I was watching at the MLA diesel of quinette a minutes ago, and now I find another IC engine, a 4 cylinder too
too many treasures in this forum :big:
Kel your start is impressive, very good work: I'm hooked
I too hope that in the future you find time to organize your draws in a complete plan of the engine
but now concentrate on the build please, it's coming very well :bow:


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## kcmillin

Thank you for your interest Dean, Arv, Chuck, Jeff, and Ariz. 

Nothing done as of yet, This is just an update.

I am still looking to get them done by Christmas. I have a lot of work to do, and real work keeps getting in the way. stickpoke I am stuck siding a house by myself right now hope to complete it tomorrow, or maybe Monday, well see how badly I get the itch to machine these heads come morning.

I just ordered up some cast iron from Speedy Metals, and some 7/32 hex 12l14 for the spark plugs. 

This will be my first time machining cast iron in solid form. I have practiced on what I think is cast iron pipe from the hardware store. I have read that cast iron machines nice but is very abrasive, and protection of the lathe bed should be done. 

So, how do I "SAFLEY" cover my lathe ways to protect them from the shavings? I pretty sure a towel is out of the question, so what do I use. Or is this not necessary? 

Kel


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## cfellows

I'm not saying it isn't necessary, but I never knew cast iron was supposed to be abrasive. I've never covered the ways on my lathe...

I do, however, have to clean the soles of my shoes regularly when machining cast iron. The resident, clean floor police, gets a tad crotchety when I track black carbon from the shavings into the house!

Chuck


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## Metal Butcher

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I just ordered up some cast iron from Speedy Metals, and some 7/32 hex 12l14 for the spark plugs.
> 
> This will be my first time machining cast iron in solid form. I have practiced on what I think is cast iron pipe from the hardware store. I have read that cast iron machines nice but is very abrasive, and protection of the lathe bed should be done.
> 
> So, how do I "SAFLEY" cover my lathe ways to protect them from the shavings? I pretty sure a towel is out of the question, so what do I use. Or is this not necessary?
> 
> Kel



Nice project Kel. Any chance your plans will be made available to others on the forum? Not that I'm a capable enough candidate. :'(

I would cover The ways when machining mystery cast iron, or any CI. It may contain abrasive Silica Sand.
I've also heard that bearing bronze is very abrasive , so I use throwaway 'Paper Towels' to catch the chips when I machine CI or bronze. Its good to use If for no other reason than to lessen the horrific filth that machining CI leaves behind. Also, I found out the hard way that wearing a 'Particle Mask' is a good idea too!

Keeping my act clean is better than getting hit in the back of the head with a marble rolling pin, or 5-lb bag of flour! :big:

Chuck knows exactly what I mean! ;D

-MB


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## deere_x475guy

Very interesting build Kel, I will be watching with the rest of the gang.


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## bearcar1

I use aluminum kitchen foil to cover the ways etc. of the lathe when I work on CI, sometimes I use newspaper if I'm doing just a small piece as newspaper has a tendency to shred too easily, at least for the likes of a gorilla like me. ;D

BC1
Jim


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## hobby

Kel, 

Wow, that is very, very nice work, 
it takes patience to do work like that, and your moving along so fast at it,
A very enjoyable thread for inspiration on learning how to machine the details that go into a build.

Keep up the great work.


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## NickG

Wow, nice project and great engine block Kel :bow: you are certainly rattling these projects out at high rate and high quality!

Nick


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## kcmillin

Thank you everyone for your reply's, and your input. I got the CI yesterday and practiced with the end of it. I does indeed cut nice, and the swarf is kinda strange, like little pebbles of iron. Almost like cutting brass or bronze. I will use the cheap newspaper method to protect the lathe.

Kel


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## kcmillin

I have been working on the heads over the past few days. 

I am making it like the Tiny by using a completely solid brass head.

I started with a 3/8 x 1.414 x 3.5" block.






Here is what I am trying to make





There Is alot of holes so I summed them up on a dry erase board





Drilling and countersink for the head bolts.





The six valve cover screw holes.





And the valve and pushrod holes.









I made a tiny spot where the spark plug goes, this is so I can line it up when I need to drill the funny angles.





Okay, so here is the setup for drilling the spark plug holes. There is a 30 degree angle on the X and a 7 degree angle on the Y.













Then I flipped the head around to drill the thread holes for the spark plug. I used a 1/8" end mill to locate the holes.





Countersink with an endmill to create a flat spot.














Drilling the exhaust ports.





The intake ports line up under the surface of the head. So I had to mill a .055" deep slot before drilling the holes.






I visually lined up the holes.





Here you can see where the holes meet.





Next up was to make the rocker arm holder thingy's.
I used a dial indicator instead of a vice stop to drll the cross holes 





Then using an 1/8" end mill I profiled the parts.

















Here they are.





And a last minute design change.





















And that Is how I made the head

Thanks for looking.

Kel


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## rudydubya

Great work, Kel. And great documentary photos. I learn so much from builds like yours. Looking forward to the rest of your project.

Regards,
Rudy


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## hobby

Very Nice accuracy, 
and all around good visual documentation, 
with the pictures taken close up.

Great looking machined parts.


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## Jack B

Hi Kel: That is a spectacular project. Your machining is top of the line. Your photography is also first rate. I am enjoying your build.   Jack B


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## kustomkb

Great looking head Kel!

That sure is going to be a good looking engine.


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## NickG

This does look fantastic Kel - way too bloomin complicated for me but your ports and stuff have turned out spot on.
 :bow:
Nick


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## tel

Very impressive indeed! Made my head hurt just looking at the pics.


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## Omnimill

NickG  said:
			
		

> This does look fantastic Kel - way too bloomin complicated for me but your ports and stuff have turned out spot on.
> :bow:
> Nick



Me too! Fantastic build Kel, another must watch series.

Vic.


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## krv3000

HI I can not wate to see this completed brill work  :bow:   regards bob


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## Lakc

Flipping the part over a dozen times, multiple angles to the drilling, it must be a cylinder head your working on.  Brings back memories.


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## putputman

Looks great!! That is really going to get crowded when you get all those push rods and linkage in there. 

Are you going to make your own distributor?


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## kcmillin

Thanks Rudy, Pat, Hobs, Jack, Kevin, Nick, Tel, Vic, Bob, Jeff, and Arv. WOW!

Thank you all for the kind comments, it really keeps me going on the projects, and the quality goes up when so many people are watching. These pictures are a far cry from when I started with HMEM. All I had were blurry cell phone pictures, and I am now just learning the picture taking part of the new cam.

I gotta say I think I lost about a million hairs scratching my head, I did not want to make the spark plugs a compound angle, but the exhaust ports were just to darn close to the plug holes, so I had to incorporate the 7 degree offset in the Y.

Arv, yes I am going to make the distributer. I will have an aluminum flywheel disk with two magnets to "Time" the engine, and the distributer, run off the cam, will only "Distribute" the spark. Still scratchin the old noggin though, I don't want it to be to big. I was hoping to keep the OD of the distributer below 7/8, but 3/4 would be better.

How small can I make the thing before the spark starts jumping around willie nillie?

Kel


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## cfellows

Impressive build, Kel. Lotta work figuring the position of everything on those little multicylinder engines. Looking good.

Chuck


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## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> How small can I make the thing before the spark starts jumping around willie nillie?



Thats where the real fun begins.

For DC voltage, its close to 900v per ten thousandth of an inch, or 3000v per mm, higher under pressure like inside the cylinder. If you add a sharp edge it gets lower. 

One trouble is that the higher the rpm, the more DC voltage is acting like AC voltage. Then it becomes a *lot* easier to jump any gap. 

I suggest making it as small as you dare, try doubling (rotor gap+plug gap) and dont fall in love with it you may have to make it a bit bigger.


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## kcmillin

Chuck, You can say that again :big:

Jeff, thank you for your advice on the distributer. I am about 8 times more than the "Plug gap+rotor Gap" formula. Does that mean I can make it smaller?

Kel


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## kcmillin

Okay, I got some more work done the last couple nights. Working on the valves.

I started With a 3/16" peice of drill rod. I stuck it out past the chuck about 1 inch.





I cut it down to plus .001 in about .2" at a time. I stepped it to decrease deflection.










I then stepped down the area above the valve seat to increase air flow.





Each valve was finished with 1000 grit, then 1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper. It took me about 12 minutes to get each valve to this point.





I got this Poland indicating micrometer of Ebay for $30USA. It was a priceless tool to have when making many parts to close tolerances.

I simply cut each valve to the same setting on the dial, then finished with sandpaper and only using the indicating micrometer to measure it. I would highly recommend an indicating micrometer if doing any repetitive procedures.





I then made a brass collet to hold the valve. 

I first cut the keeper slot with a cutoff blade.





Then I setup the lath to a 45 degree angle using some angle blocks, magnets, and a dial indicator.










I first cut the valve seat cutter blank.





Then the valves.





Here they are.









Then I cut the valve seat cutter.





here it is in use.





The valve seats.






I sill need to lap the valves. I used auto store lapping compund.





using a drill chuck I held the valve for lapping.









I decided to keep them all in their respective places after lapping.





Then I taped the head to protect the valve seats and head surface.





I used a vacuum gauge to test the valve seat. This is actually testing the valve seat and the valve guide for leaks.

I think this is good enough. You tell Me.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqGOqqePejw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqGOqqePejw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Thats all for now. Time do design the valve rocker arms.

Kel


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## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I am about 8 times more than the "Plug gap+rotor Gap" formula. Does that mean I can make it smaller?



Kel,
I have only gone at this conceptually so far, I have no practical experiance to back it up yet. As there are a lot of factors like atmospheric pressure, and how sharp an edge is between potential voltages, its anybodies guess. The good thing is the smaller you make it, the less material gets wasted if it doesnt work.


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## hobby

A Master Craftsman, indeed.

Nice work on the whole project so far, as I said before, I like your ingenuity on the setups, also nice looking valve seat cutter tooling.


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## NickG

Great technique on the valves there Kel, I'll definitely be looking back at this post when I make my first i.c. valves.

Only problem is, you made it look easy but I bet it isn't!

Thanks.

Nick


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## kcmillin

Thanks Jeff, Hobs, and Nick. 

Well, what good are valves without keepers. 
These little guys were surprisingly easy to make, so I made a few extra because they are so tiny (I will probably loose one) 

Basic Lathe work. I turned to OD to .166" and drilled a 1/16" hole about an inch deep.






Then I moved it to the mill. A 1/16" end mill was used to make the slot.






Back over to the lathe and with a 3/32" end mill I countersunk the end for the valve. This will "Keep" the keeper in place.






Then part the peice off, it is about .040 long. 






And here they are.










I think these are the smallest parts I have made so far, I was apprehensive at first, but it was so easy I made 27 of them.

Kel


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## deere_x475guy

Kel, nice job on the keepers and construction description. For a guy that has only been in this a short time you are amazing me. I have to get over my mind block with small parts....


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## cfellows

I like the way you made the keepers, Kel. Pretty inventive!

Chuck


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## dsquire

Kel

Very nice work there. It is hard to realise just how small the parts really are looking at them until you see them all sitting there on top of the penny. Thanks for posting this log. :bow:

Cheers 

Don


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## kcmillin

Thanks Everyone for your kind words.



			
				deere_x475guy  said:
			
		

> For a guy that has only been in this a short time you are amazing me. ..



Bob, I owe it all to HMEM (and my machines)

Chuck, Thanks! I was not sure how els to make them efficiently. It got a little hairy parting them off so far out from the chuck, If I did it again, I would only go 5/8" max instead of 1.

Don, I am going out to purchase one of those Lights with the magnifying glasses on them. Oh ya, a clean shop is a pretty good idea, I have already lost a valve and 2 keepers to the "Swarf Pile" 

Kel


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## kcmillin

Some more work done this morning.

I am trying to come up with some ways of making multiple parts efficiently and accurately. These rocker arms are another example.

I started with a 1/4" thick by 5/8" wide brass barn and milled it down to .156" thick.

I Drilled the necessary holes for the pivots and rollers.





Then I flipped it and milled the profile. I used a 1/4" ball end mill to "Kiss" the edges to get a final thickness of 1/8".










Then I flipped it once more and milled the 1/16" slot for the rollers.





Now it is time to "Part" them off.
Once again using a dial indicator to locate the part, I used a 1/8" end mill to cut them off.








Here is the "Almost Finished" rocker arms. I still have to make to half holes for the pushrods.











Now on to the rollers and finishing them off.

I am thinking about making a tumbler to polish the parts, or at least take down the sharp edges.  What type of medium should I use? Anything common and cheap would be great.


Kel


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## GailInNM

Really like your keeper method, Kel.
I am going to have some keepers coming up in a few weeks and will do them your way, or at least similar. It looks much easier than the way I made my last ones. It's a winner. Thm: Thm:

I think that I may try using a 1/16 ball end mill and put a slot in 5/32 brass stock with it so I won't have to drill the stock.

You are making great progress on an impressive build.

Gail in NM


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## deere_x475guy

Kel, check Mcmaster carr and do a search of finishing media. The ceramic will probably work well to remove the machining marks and deburr....you will need something like walnut shells for polishing afterward.


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## kcmillin

Thanks Gail and Bob. 

I am going to check the gun shop for some tumbling media.


Here are some follow up pics. I had to remove a little material from the rocker arm holders to provide clearance for the rockers.

I also milled a little material away from the top side of the rocker arm to make it a little less blocky.


























Thanks for lookin!

Kel


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## shred

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Thanks Gail and Bob.
> 
> I am going to check the gun shop for some tumbling media.


Go to the pet store... lizard bedding is ground walnut shells and corncob is also available there. Much cheaper than the gun store and works just the same.

If you need mass quantities, then hit up a sandblasting supply place.


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## kcmillin

Thanks Shred. To the pet store I shall go. 

I have completed a very crude tumbler and am currently "Tumbling" the tine rocker arms and holders. They still have machine marks on them so I am starting out with glass beads from my blast cabinet.
-
I also added some small steel washers to aid in the de-buring. I will check every few hours to make sure it is not over doing it. 

More updates later.

Kel


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## putputman

Kel, I would really like to see some before & after photos of those brass part you are tumbling. Also a photo of the tumbler. You sure put one together in a hurry.


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## kcmillin

Arv, I cant show you the parts yet, they are not done yet. (This tumbling sure takes awhile)

I do got some vids of it running.

I am using a mixture of glass beads, aluminum oxide, sleel washers, and a couple big bits to break up the parts when they get stuck together.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7EKQkVrV3EI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7EKQkVrV3EI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

And what would it be without an action shot.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y54PPcXfRuM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y54PPcXfRuM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Kel


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## zeeprogrammer

Very neat Kel.
What's the purpose of that 'screw'? in the side? I see it poking in but was wondering if it could cause unwanted marks.


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## kcmillin

Zee, that screw was there to stop the barrel from moving forward in the fixture and detaching itself from the motor shaft. 

This tumbler was a complete failure,(No surprise there, it only took me 15 minutes to make) although it did tumble, it did not do it reliably. 

I have since made a new tumbler. I used a coffee can this time, it was places in a "Cradle" of roller blade wheels, with a motor turning one of the wheels to rotate the can.

I have not had good luck with my mix of glass beads, aluminum oxide, washers, and bits of ceramic tile. The tool marks were not even changing after 24 hours of tumbeling. They are very light marks too. I think the sandblasting agents were a bad Idea.

So I decided to try the walnut shells. I mixed in some shavings from a stick of polishing rouge and let her go for two days.

The parts were polished but the tool marks remain. I am thinking about crushing up some more ceramic tiles and not using the glass beads and aluminum oxide.

Am I wasting my time with the ceramic tiles? Should I get some "Real" tumbling media. (For removing tool marks) 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Kel


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## ddmckee54

I think you're trying to do at least two steps at the same time which is probably why your results are less that satisfactory. Try removing the tool marks using an aggressive media. If you know anyone that does sandblasting see if you can talk them out of a cup or two of their blasting media, the coarser the better. Then after the tool marks have been removed and you have a matte finish you can polish the parts with the glass beads or walnut shells.

Long time lurker.
Don


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## kcmillin

Pat, I have had one of those sanders on the wish list for quite some time, I really need to get me one.

It has been awhile since my last post, but nI have been working. I made the 8 spark plugs I need, and then I received the 74 pieces of white corian pen blanks from e-bay, so I will make 8 more the way that Gail did for the "Tiny"

I also made the cylinder liners. I have yet to hone the little guys, it is going to be quite difficult to hold onto when honing so I might need to make a clamp style holder for them. Not sure yet though, I bored them undersized then used a .374" reamer to make the final bore, then I will hone it (Somehow)

Kel


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## Maryak

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I also made the cylinder liners. I have yet to hone the little guys, it is going to be quite difficult to hold onto when honing so I might need to make a clamp style holder for them. Not sure yet though, I bored them undersized then used a .374" reamer to make the final bore, then I will hone it (Somehow)
> 
> Kel



Wooden clothes peg ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## coopertje

Hi Kel,

Very nice job on the engine  :bow:

To hone the cylinders I use a hone that garage shops use for the small cylinders for the car braking system. They are cheap, in Holland you can buy them at a car part shop for a few Euros. It works really well, if you want I can post a picture of the tool.

Have fun, regards Jeroen


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## kcmillin

Thanks Bob, and Jeroen.

Thus far I have tried to lap them using an alumium bar, but alas all I got was a smaller aluminum bar, and using a needle I can still feel the small ridges made by the reamer. In the past I have used sandpaper on a split wooden mandrel, but in the 3/8" size it is very fiddly and uncooperative, not to mention incredibly difficult to hold on to. The outside of the cylinder liner in only 1/2", I am still healing from the cuts I got whilst holding onto the cylinders. I did not want to use a clamp because I thought this might crush the cylinder slightly and create and elliptical bore, which would make it difficult to machine the pistons ;D . Perhaps I should install he liners and then hone them.

Bob, your talking about the one piece cloths pegs split down the middle? Would I use the split end? I have some maple I could turn down, I assume that the wood would hold the lapping compound well.

Jeroen, I have a brake cylinder hone, but it is much to big to fit the 3/8" bore. I was also thinking about using a ball style hone, they come in much smaller sizes.


Kel


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## stevehuckss396

Would it be easier to press the liners into the block. Then you will have alot more material to hang onto.


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## coopertje

Hi Kel,

sorry, missed the 3/8 bore.... brake cylinder hone definitely too big! I agree with Steve, first mount them in the block and then run the reamer through (mounted in the mill). I did a trial on a 4 cylinder block some time ago and just got a good result with reaming when I had it swimming in the lubrication fluid. With too little fluid or non at all it didn't work. Also important to keep the reamer rotating while pulling it slowly back out of the cylinder. 

Regards Jeroen


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## Maryak

Kel,

If you are going to make a holder attached is a suggestion for one:







Apologies for the C-o-C.

Best Regards
Bob


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## kcmillin

Thats a great Idea for a holder Bob. :bow: Simple and effective.

Steve, I will be using the press in first then hone method. I figure I can use the drill press for this. I have just ordered a 240 grit ball style flexi hone. For use on valve stems. I think this will give me a great surface finish, I could not find anything finer. But I'm sure I will get decent results.

  I am still designing the water jackets. I have just made a keyway cutter out of some 3/8" drill rod. I will be making a fixture for my Rotary Table to hold the block while I mill out the water jacket. Just a matter of determining where the inlet and outlets should be. this is becoming quite a challenge to design, The water pump is still in my head and not on the computer screen yet, I am not even sure where it is going yet. 

  My original deadline of Christmas is getting closer and closer, perhaps I was a little too optomistic. But I still got my fingers crossed. The majority of the parts are in the heads of these engines and there are out of the way. Now all I have left is everything else that makes an engine run. :big:

Kel

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> My original deadline of Christmas is getting closer and closer, perhaps I was a little too optomistic. But I still got my fingers crossed.



Well, no need to rush. That will give us something to look forward to after Christmas has passed.


----------



## BlakeMcKee

Anybody else notice Maryak just gave the triple-x world a new idea for an easy-access pair of pants?  :big: I only joke! .


----------



## Maryak

BlakeMcKee  said:
			
		

> Anybody else notice Maryak just gave the triple-x world a new idea for an easy-access pair of pants? :big: I only joke! .



I know you're only saying that because of the leather. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## kcmillin

I finally pulled the trigger and started milling the water jackets. 

I decided not mill them from the side and instead use Steve's Suggestion of using a key cutter.

I had to make the key cuter since I did not have one to fit the bore.

It is made from 3/8" drill rod. You can see it below.





Next was to com up with a quick way to locate each bore on my rotary table.
I made a tooling plate for it awhile ago, so it was a matter of getting the R/T centered to the spindle, then locating each bore.

I made a slug out of aluminum with a 3/8" shank and a .5" large end.





I stuck that in a collet in the mill and put it in the bore of the first cylinder, while it was still in the bore I then clamped it in place.





Here is the setup.





I used a small cordless drill to make turning the rotary table easier. I had to make 4 passes in each cylinder, at 72 cranks per revolution that would be 1152 cranks of that small wheel for each block. (No Thanks) the drill wil be nice.






I now need to decide where to Drill the holes. 

I was thinking about drilling a hole from the back of the engine at the bottom of the water jacket (This would be the inlet) and then drilling a second hole from the front at the top of the water jacket (This would be the outlet) I was thinking this way the water will flow in from a low spot, travel around all the cylinder liners and then exit at the top, hopefully removing all the air in the process.



Kel


----------



## kcmillin

I got the cylinders honed and locktited in place. So that is one more step closer to a finished project.

I also finished designing the timing cover/distributer mount. It was easy to design but hard to decide. There was a lot to think about and I hope I fingured for everything. I suppose well see when I get the rest of the engine designed. For now it is just one (or two ) parts at a time.

This piece started like all others, a block milled to final total dimensions. From there it was as simple as drilling a few holes and using end mills to create flat bottomed pockets.






Then I drilled a half inch hole for the distributer and finished the bottom with a ball end mill to create a nice rounded pocket for the gears.











Then I milled the angled sides to the correct length. give or take.






Then the fun began. I milled the front of the cover to expose the tunnel in which the distributer will go.






I then used a corner rounding bit to get a nice radius on the corners.






Then my favorite tool was implemented to get the radius's around the bottom and sides, I also rounded off the bottom of the distributer tunnel.






And the mostly finished part in hand.






Check a couple more parts of the list.

Kel


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hi Kel. Your projects looking real good! It takes a lot of hard work, and even more patience to blend milling marks on a complex shape like that. 

Great job. :bow:

-MB


----------



## ozzie46

It is shaping up nicely Kel. One piece at a time. 

 I must keep saying that to my self.

 Ron


----------



## kustomkb

Nice work Kel!

Nice job on your little key way cutter too.


----------



## cfellows

Really nice work, Kel. I'm sure envious of guys like you, George B and others who turn out such nice shapes in metal!

Chuck


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks everyone for your compliments. It really means a lot.

I got some more work done today. 

Valve covers.

pretty much the same setups as the oil pan, so I will limit my pictures.

Started off by milling out the inside. and rilling the holes.






Next up was to make the reliefs for the sparkplugs.

I used a 1/4" ball end mill 






Pretty boring writeup I know, but this is all basic machining.

here it is with the cad drawing in the background.






on the head.






and with the rest of the engine.






I am not as far behind as I thought I would be, I still have quite a bit to go, but vacation time is nearing, that should give me a few solid days of machine time. That is assuming I can design everything in time.

I am finding that designing the parts is relatively easy, the toughest part is deciding weather or not if that is what I want. I am in a war with myself, I have to think like an engineer and a machinist at the same time. Form or Function, a never ending battle.

Kel


----------



## NickG

Oooo, looking very much like an engine and it's living up to it's name Kel, it is certainly Tiny! Well done :bow:


----------



## gbritnell

Nice work Kel. It's really starting to take shape. I like the detailing on the rocker cover with the spark plug reliefs. I have reliefs similar to the ones you have for the hold down screws on my 302 v-8 so I made extension bolts with T handle tops for ease of removal.
gbritnell


----------



## ttrikalin

respect to the master
 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

anxious to see how it evolves. Can't wait until the holidays are here 

t


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Nick, George, and T!!!

George, your 4 cylinder and Steve's V-8 are a constant source of inspiration, you will see that in my distributer design, or should I say, your design :big:

T, I am hardly a master, but I can imitate quite well :big: 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

OK, for this weekends work I decided (FINALLY!!!!) on a design for the distributer.

It is for the most part a smaller version of George's inline 4. However I will be using screws to hold the distributer cap on.

I started by getting a basic shape from a 1 inch bar of aluminum.







I left it large on the shaft so I could fit it in the collet all the way to the large end.

I then bored out the inside of the top.






Next I put a 1/2" collet in and turned down the shaft to a more pleasing 3/8"






Then off to the R/T to drill the holes for the cap and magnet bracket. 

also, I milled out the screw tabs on the outside of the distributer, this way I can get it closer to the engine block.






here is the rough distributer.






Here is the hole/slot for the hall sensor. along with the screw holes.






Now I need to make a strap to hold the hall sensor in place.

I first made a cup of sorts on the lathe with the ID and the OD to spec.

I then put in in the chuck in the R/T and freed the little straps which were hiding in the stock.











Here it is holding the sensor in place.






and the inside. The sensor just fits snug and wont fall through the hole due to the tiny bit of ally left from the cut.






Next I made the brackets which hold the magnets in place.





















and here it is installed in the distributer.






only 5 more parts for each one and I'm done with the distributors. 

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Slick work Kel! :bow: :bow:

I suspect you have a bottlecap type shutter to build next, thats the way to do it! ;D


----------



## checkedout

WOW


and


WOW


Beautiful work! I can't wait to see it run...


----------



## gbritnell

Very nice work Kel. I think you'll be very happy with this design. It's simple and effective. The only other thing you might do is enlarge the holes enough to be able to move the magnet holder a little although I found you can be up to .06 away and still get a good magnetic signal. 
George


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Jeff, Checkedout, and George!!

Jeff, you are correct, It will be about the size of a bottle cap too.

Checkedout, Me too :big:

George, In my design I have less that .005 between the magnet and the indide of the trigger wheel. I was doing experiments with the "Tiny", and I had it running with a .1" gap between the 1/8" magnet and the sensor. In my distributer I have about .035" of gap, well see if it works I guess.

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> In my distributer I have about .035" of gap, well see if it works I guess.



I think I read somewhere that the sweet spot was about .040 so you are right in the ball park. Looking good!!


----------



## cfellows

Geez, Kel, you make me feel like a blacksmith! I measure tolerances in increments of 1/16". :^)

Chuck


----------



## ozzie46

Watching and learning here. Nice work Kel.

 Ron


----------



## kcmillin

I got some little odd jobs done on the engine over the past few weeks. 

I made the smallest distributer cap and rotor I have ever held in my hand.

The rotor was a simple plastic bit with a brass contact across it.






Next up was the cap.

I made it out of delrin. I started by making the blank then locating the part on the mill, all standard opertions.






I needed to get the five nipples on the top of the cap somehow.

I seen a post from Hobby where he made a plug cutter to make spouts.

Here is my cutter. It was incredibly simple to make.

First I drilled a 3/16" hole in a piece of drill rod, then milled all but a little bit away to form two straight flutes.

here it is.,





I made the cap nipples square first





Then using my new plug cutter I made the nipples round





and here it is, the smallest distributer cap I have ever seen. (it is .85" round.)






after pressing some brass plugs in, she was done.











I also decided to make some sparkplug cables. I will need these for testing soon. the boots are made from delrin with shrink tubing on them. The sparkplug boots are r/c model gas line.






And here is a part that brought a smile to my face, the smallest Equal Length Header I have ever held in my hand. 







And the progress so far.






Some fun stuff done will help me get this engine finished.

However I am thinking about making a single cylinder version so I can play with cam and carb design. I think there will be less variables with one cylinder as opposed to two when troubleshooting design issues.

Kel


----------



## hobby

Way to go Kel,
Nice fabrication on that distributor,
I'm glad the plug cutter worked out good for you.

Your engine is coming together real nice.

Keep up the excellent work.


----------



## ironman

Kel, really enjoy this build. I like the distributor cap and rotor. The single cylinder sounds very favorable to me. Will be glad to follow that along. Keep up the very good work. Thm: ironman (Ray)


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Very cool Kel.
And yeah...that header is sharp looking.


----------



## NickG

Brilliant! :bow:


----------



## agmachado

Absolutely fantastic!

Very nice work.

Alexandre


----------



## kustomkb

Awesome job on your engine Kel! And all the tooling to build it.

 I am really digging the equal length headers. It's going to pay major dividends when we get it up on the dyno!

All the best on the final stretch.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the compliments guys!

Todays installment is bevel gears for the distributor.

I used what I learned in this thread to get the job done. 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10416.0

First up was making the blank






Next I setup the mill to cut on a 45 degree angle on the R/T






Here is the close up of the cutter and blank. I started by making the first twelve cuts on dead center.










Each gear required 36 cuts to create the correct profile. It was a slow, but exciting process, I enjoy seeing gears being made.

Here is one finished gear.






and both in mesh with each other.






Here is one of them installed on the distributor. 






Not making much progress, or as much as I would like, but I am still hopeful to finish by spring. I am getting the itch to build another engine, and another, and another............but for now I must concentrate on the task at hand.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Very pretty!
For some reason, making gears seems one of the more rewarding jobs. It looks like you have a pair of good ones.


----------



## cfellows

That's just frickin' impressive. Nice work, Tel!

Chuck


----------



## agmachado

O trabalho continua muito bom !!!

Ops... sorry... Is the emotion... ))

The work remains very good!

Cheers,

Alexandre


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks guys, these were fun to make. I just hope my calculations are correct to get them to mesh. (*Fingers crossed)

Chuck, When I decided to make this engine it was a toss up between making bevel gears, or using your method of helical gear cutting. I would still like to try it, just need to make a milling attachment for the lathe first. I think helical gears would have been a better choice. 

(Oh ya, it's Kel) :big: :big: but I don't mind :big:

Kel


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## NickG

Wow, this project is getting even more amazing now! I've got my fingers crossed but am sure it'll be right!
 :bow:

Nick


----------



## kcmillin

If I have learned anything from this web site it is that making a multi cylinder crankshaft if a very difficult process.

My intentions were to make a built up crankshaft, but my attempt at that failed horribly. After I pressed in the pins the whole thing was out of whack, to make matters worse, I accidently cut one of the crank journels off when removing the unwanted bits, so it was scrapped.











So I finally decided to make it in one piece. This is where the fun begins.

Since this is my first attempt I decided to use what I had on hand. Mystery Steel.

It was center drilled for the mains and throws.





I am using the mill away then turn method.















Here are the spacers which will stop the crank from crushing when clamped between centers.










Back to the mill for the mains




















Cutting the first main.













Up to this point everything was going OK, except for the chatter I was getting from the cut off bar, but I figured it was from the interrupted cuts.

Well, as I started to cut the second main journal a horrible noise was heard, the cut off bar caught up on the part and turned my crankshaft into a banana. I was't even hungry. I let out a quite @#$%, and said to myself, "Self, that wasn't to bad for your first try", and quietly shut the lights off and went upstairs to contemplate what I had done, aside from loosing 7 hours shop time.










I am thinking that a proper indexable cut off tool is in order, but I am not sure.

I tried to give the crank a little twist, and even with 3/16" journals it is incredibly stiff, and will not be bent back into shape, every throw is twisted and out of line. 

I really liked making this part, even though I failed, it is not a failure.

Any suggestions on how I can change my setups, or the order of machining operations?

Kel


----------



## ironman

Kel, that was great photos and documentation and good method and machining until "it" happened.   You weren't turning that with those C-clamps on the chuck end. Were you?

With the experience you have now, the next one will be a breeze. I hope.   Good luck.

ironman (Ray)


----------



## GailInNM

Kel,
I have done a few and this is what worked the best for me.
First machine the throws as you did.

Then machine the shafts on each end to size. You can use a proper turning tool here so it is easier.

Then chuck one end with a minimum of overhang. I use a collet, but you can do it in a 4 jaw leaving just enough room to get an indicator in to adjust to run true.

Now cut the center main journal. It is the hardest one as it is the most flex. 

Then cut the journal nearest the chuck.

Reverse the crank, indicate if using a chuck, and cut the last journal.

Gail in NM


----------



## steamer

Phil Duclos recommended milling the throws and journals round and to slightly oversize. He had them mounted between centers to do this.  It would be the way I would go, and then do the final turning to size.

I would superglue blocks into the journals that your not machining...much like you have in the photo's

If you wave a propane torch at them, the glue will let go.

The end mill will be much less likely to grab during a cut than a parting tool, and the forces will be lower.

Then make a bifurcated turning tool...very thin. and finish turn the last .005" or so off the diameter.

That's what I'd do anyway.....Good luck to you!



Dave


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Ray, Gail, and Dave.

Ray, I am in desperate need of a bigger lath dog. I will be making one BEFORE my next crankshaft, It went well, but thats not to say it wasn't sketchy, I had a full face shield on and stood to the side, just in case. I am glad you pointed that out.

Gail, Thanks for the advice, I will be using the collet method as you described, sound like a better choice.

Dave, I was thinking about something similar, perhaps using the R/T to get the journals oversize. 

Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Kel,
That was a great job on the crank, discounting the outcome. Dave and Gail gave some good advice about turning the mains on the ends and chucking up as close as possible. Also the use of a bifurcated tool helps immensely. 
I don't mean to hijack your thread but here is a link to my build of the Holt crank. Maybe this will give you a few more ideas.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=26132&highlight=holt+crankshaft
George


----------



## Lakc

Congratulations Kel! Its kinda a rite of passage to have one pretzel hanging up on the wall 8) Sit back, have a beverage attack it again tomorrow.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hi Kel. Don't let it bother you. It happens sooner or later to all of us, and in my case time and time again!

My last OOPS was a valve stem. I hooked the head with my cutter and pulled it clean out of a collet.

It looked like the business end of a well made cork screw!

Although you will probably want to make a new one, your crank dosen't look all that bad.

-MB


----------



## kcmillin

Round Two.....

I started over this morning with the crankshaft. All the procedures are the same until one point.

This pic shows the crankshaft main getting turned down on one end.









Next I turned it around and put it in a 1/4" collet, as per Gail's recommendation.

I made the other end round.





Then I proceeded to cut the canter main journal, and WOW what a difference, there was very little chatter, and everything went swimmingly. Thanks Gail.











Then it was off to the mill to remove the excess material from the throws.





And here is the finished part, somewhat.





As with most things this seemed harder to think about than actually doing, it got a little hairy at times, but with patience it can be done. This is now my preferred method of making a crankshaft, maybe now I will try to make a single throw :big: :big:

One more pic with the inspection crew, they noticed a bit of a concetricity issue with one end of the crank, it seems to be off center, If I can't fix it, than it is yet another scrapped part. ???






Kel


----------



## Lakc

Looks real good! Ill bet it didnt take half the time the first one did.
Even factory crankshafts get "tweaked" for concentricity at times, if all your bearing clearances are fine, it might not be anything to sweat.


----------



## jpeter

I question the collet method cuz if your collet isn't dead nuts your mains won't end up colinear. You won't know that though until you try to bed it in the bearings. Just for fun set the end mains in v-blocks then dial indicate the center main just to see how lucky you've been.


----------



## agmachado

Hi Kel,

Very good !!! th_wav

Cheers,

Alexandre


----------



## doc1955

Nice job Kel! Only cranks I have ever done have been single throws I have yet to build a multi cylinder IC engine.
I know what your saying when you say you stood to one side I have done that a few time in the past. :big:


----------



## NickG

Great result and a good tutorial for anybody else doing it. I was well impressed when I did my tiny stirling - all be it a lot shorter than yours but it had 1/16" dia journels!

Nick


----------



## compspecial

You have great patience KC and it paid off! A real challenge too doing a five main bearing shaft, wonderful to watch.
                        Stew


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Everyone for your replies.

Unfortunately this crank is also destined for the scrap bin. I checked it in the block and it rocks back and forth between the three middle bearings, and the end mains are completely off center, I used an indicator and ther are between 5 and 20 thou out, so it is hopeless to fix.

I am thinking about getting rid of two or all three of the middle main bearings, and going with a different crank design where the crankshaft only has two journals and an angled web of sorts between throws, instead of a journal. I will get a drawing up soon to describe it better.

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

I may have just discovered something.

I indicated my collet chuck, and it showed .003" out. This had to be wrong, when I made it it had .0001" out. I also checked a 1/4" piece of drill rod and it was 5 thou out.

Hmmm, so I took off the chuck and noticed there was a bit of gunk in the threads and the register, so I meticulously cleaned the whole works, and reinstalled it. Checked it again, and BAM, Dead on, or at least much closer, with a drill rod it measured .0004" 1" away from the chuck. Much better.

I am still contemplating the new crank design without the middle journals.

Kel


----------



## compspecial

aaaaaargh!! how maddening Kel, all your good work sabotaged by a faulty piece of tooling. So glad you found it though!!
                          Stew


----------



## Lakc

Thats tough Kel, but you paid the price of that experience, doubt that problem will ever bite you again.

Before you scrap it, and while you have your measuring tools out, why not try to straighten it. Metal flows, much like putty, and in that it gives out its secrets.  Start with a little nudge or tap with a hammer here and there, you will be surprised how easy it moves.


----------



## agmachado

Hi Kel,

No more news for us...

This a very cool project!

Cheers,

Alexandre


----------



## kcmillin

Alexandre, I am still thinking everything through. I have been busy in the shop on other projects though. I hope to get back to this soon, I still have quite a bit of design work to get everything in place, and some significant parts to be made.

 I am currently doing an extensive search for a CNC solution. Alot to grasp the old noggin around there. I am about to go mad trying to decide on what to do.

Kel


----------



## agmachado

Hi Kel,

Okay... thanks!

Certainly, I'll be here ... hoping to enjoy!

Alexandre


----------



## Zadch

Hi Kel, 
I realise that your thinking about crankshafts but do you have a plans for the block? Thanks.
Zach


----------



## kcmillin

Zach, no plans as of yet. Hopefully once I get her running though. Things are still a little sketchy. 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

UPDATE:

Milestone achieved.

Been working on the crankshaft this past weekend. 

Started Saturday morning off with some milling to get the blank to size, after three crank journals things were going great until BAM pretzel time. So I quietly shut down the shop, went upstairs to contemplate what went wrong. Still not sure as everything was identical with the previous two, so I brushed it off as a fluke.

Sunday came, I decided to have another crack at it. This time was much better and I managed to make the entire crank. 

Now the moment of truth. I checked it with a DTI and the three middle main journals were 5 thou out, and the end mains were 2 out. 

So, I managed to screw it up again, but this time much less. So I tried to fix it.

I mounted it between centers on the lathe again and decreased the journals size from .250 - .240". Not much different, this would mean that I would now have to bore a bushing instead of using a reamer, but that is no big deal. 

So again, the moment of truth, I checked it and all the journals are now within .001 TIR. Good enough for me. 

Now that I have finished what is probably the most difficult single part of the engine, I am getting the motivation back to finish the little guy. I am also considering changing the bore from .375" - .5" but am not too sure yet. This would almost double the displacement and give me a square bore and stroke. (a little secret for those who read, I have made two of each part so far, except the crankshaft. So I can use the second block to experiment with a bigger bore. I also have 16 valves and rocker arms, 20 some keepers, and a bunch of springs.)

Also, I tested the distributor and it indeed 'distributes' the spark without any stray sparks. Horray!!!! I was worried about it for awhile.

A few more worries. 

The Head. The ports are quite small, .094", but I have no room for bigger holes, so I might end up redesigning the head to 1/2" thick instead of 3/8"


Thanks for lookin in. Now I suppose I should get to work figuring out the camshaft design and mapping out a machining chart.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Way to go Kel, crankshafts are the hardest part.


----------



## jpeter

Sounds like its coming along. Its nice to have the crank done.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the comments guys. 

I have been working on this motor quite a bit recently. 

I was not able to get many 'in process' shots of a few of the parts, but I just copied what I seen on this website.

All I had left to build was 
connecting rods and pistons. 
The bushings for the crank. 
Some really tiny nuts for the valve adjustment. 
Pushrods
Intake manifold

I still have yet to make 
a carb, 
water pump and radiator
a stand

But................................IT RUNS!!!!! IT RUNS!!!!!!! IT RUNS!!!!!!!!!

I just had to get her on the test stand (vise) and see if I could get her to pop. It took some tweaking, and I still don't think I am running on all cylinders, but I am getting about 5-6000 rpm out of her before I shut her down. EXCITED I AM

I think the neighbors are wondering what is happening, I yelled at the top of my lungs WOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO repeatedly. :big:

I used a carb from the tiny IC I made last year, I really need to get a better carb with a good throttle.

Anyway, I am curently downloading the pics and VIDEO (No, I did not forget to pick up the camera)

More to come!!!


A very Happy,

Kel


----------



## seagar

Great work Kel,I cant wait to see the video.
Ian(seagar)


----------



## kcmillin

THanks Ian!

The vid is still uploading.

Here are some pics of the connecting rods and pistons connected to the crank.










I also forgot to mention I made the Cam. But most of you may have figured it out.

I did manage to photograph the process.

I started with a 3/8" bar of drill rod.

I made it to the correct length and made the threads and register for the gear.









Then I turned out the lobe blanks on the bar.,



















Then it was off to the mill to make the lobes to shape.





I though I had it all figured out but the number 2 and three cylinders got swapped somewhere along the line. Luckily these two cylinders are in phase. I am not to sure what happed though.

So, I milled both flats on the lobe





Then I set the cutter on the center line and turned the rotary table. this milled out the bottom side of the lobe, and created the necessary radius.






Here it is finished.









Here are a few more pics.




















Here are the valve adjustment nuts.





this video sure is taking awhile to upload.

Coming soon though.

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

And the video

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ngaGpyR6v8Q?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ngaGpyR6v8Q?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

Kel


----------



## kuhncw

Congratulations!! The little critter really sounds good. 

Regards,

Chuck


----------



## ironman

Hey Kel, That is a humdinger of an engine. Congradulations. Great sounding. You did a super job on it.
ironman (Ray)     Build log is good to.


----------



## slick95

Very, Very nicely done Kel :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

You persistence has certainly paid off. I really Dig it!!!

Jeff


----------



## stevehuckss396

Great job man!! I see you like to make more than one like me. Pair of the little buggers would look awesome in a little boat of some kind.

Congrats!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Dave G

Very nice Kel. I like the sound of it. Dave


----------



## agmachado

Hi Kel,

That's great !!!

Very, very cool !!!

Congratulations from Brazil !!! :bow: :bow:

Cheers,

Alexandre


----------



## Deanofid

That's great, Kel! You did a grand job there, and you have proof of it.
Thanks for the vids. I'm pretty jazzed seeing it run. : )


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the Great Comments guys! It really Means a lot.

Ray, the build of your Tiny IC is what litl the fuse on this project, and provided some necessary information. Thanks you for that.

Steve, I learned it from watching you :big:. The second engine will be bored out to .5". I figure why not, I got the room. I am also contemplating making a turbo, but I think that will do funny things with the small carb.


 I plan on tearing down the little guy, cleaning everything up, adjusting the bevel gears, make a new carb, polish the valve stems, and re-lap with jewlers rouge. Among other things.

Thanks again everyone.

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

here is another vid.

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----------



## seagar

Congrats Kel, that is something to be real proud of. th_wav

Ian (seagar)


----------



## GailInNM

Thanks for the great journey Kel.
A wonderful project comes to a great functional conclusion and the window dressing will just make it more special.
Gail in NM


----------



## NickG

Kel, absolutely amazing! What an achievement :bow: Sounds like it's on all 4 to me!

Nick


----------



## awJCKDup

Another great build Kel, and an inspiration to the rest of us to start thinking multi cylinder multi builds!-----congratulations

John


----------



## Lakc

Great job! It must be a heck of a feeling to finally hear it run.


----------



## kustomkb

Congratulations Kel!

You have done a great job and should be very proud.

Thanks for sharing the journey, up's and downs.


----------



## arnoldb

Congratulations Kel - well done indeed :bow: :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## dreeves

What a great running engine. Well Done

Dave


----------



## compspecial

Absolutely amazing Kel, and sounds amazing too, what an achievement!
           Stew


----------



## ozzie46

Great job Kel. :bow: :bow: :bow:
 Love the sound.

 Ron


----------



## Swede

Beautifully done! I know well the great feeling when an IC engine is running well. Steam is always great, but an IC engine presents challenges a bit beyond a steamer.

I especially like your nicely engineered ignition - the distributor and cables. I very likely missed it, but where did you get (or make) those spark plug cables? I am constantly looking for nice, scale-looking rubber boots for the spark plugs.


----------



## cfellows

Wow, I am truly impressed! Runs and looks great. Very nice work indeed.

Chuck


----------



## kcmillin

Thank you everyone for for kind words. I could not have done it without the help from the members on this forum. The feeling of getting an engine running is better than any drug. I am already Jonesing for another fix. :big:

Swede, the spark plug cables were from S&S. I made the boots from silicone R/C fuel tubing, then wrapped it in heat shrink tubing. The wire is just bunched up inside the fuel tubing, and makes contact with the top of the plug.

Well, I took the engine apart and mt suspicions of a foul cylinder were correct. There were indeed carbon deposits on three of the cylinders, and one was completely clean. I found that the intake valve was not sealing. So I relapped both valves in that cylinder. I will be resembling the engine later today. For now I want to remove a little material from the head around the pushrod holes. The rods are showing wear already. So I will decrease the length of the pushrod guide from 3/8" to about 1/4" or less. 

Still Happy,

Kel


----------



## 90LX_Notch

Kel,

Awsome! Truely impressive!

Bob


----------



## bronson

The engine runs and sounds great. Nice Job. :bow:


----------



## jpeter

Can't be beat. Now you'll have to start it after work every night for the next year just to hear it run. It'll become an obssion if it already hasn't.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Congratulations Kel! :bow:

That's a sweet running four you built. I just love the sound, and all that rocker action! Simply beautiful!!! :big:

-MB


----------



## hobby

Kel,

Congradulations, on a very impressive build, the parts that you designed, and built, that went into that engine, is fantastic work, and a great loking engine as well as a great runner too.

This was a very informative and enjoyable thread, especially seeing that it was designed from scratch, that's impressive designwork, and build workmanship.


----------



## RManley

Very nice. When I first started modelling I was totally against petrol engines and thought them to be just very noisy and not that interesting, steam _was_ the way to go. 
Since then I have taken more of an interest in petrol models (probably when I could drive and ride a motorbike), but its projects like this that get me really hooked. All I need is more time (and retirement...anyone want to fund me?) and something like this is on my list of things to do.

It sounds great too ;D


----------



## doc1955

Very nice Kel!
They do sound great :bow: :bow:
Good job!!


----------



## Swede

Kel, you'll find that the pushrods, tappets, and cam interface will wear (alarmingly) at first, and you'll be adjusting valve clearance for a while, but then suddenly everything seems to calm down, and you'll not have to mess with it so much.

I made my radial engine so that clearance was done by having adjustable pushrods rather than rocker arms, but the principle is the same. The engine breaks in, and then there is much less adjusting of these components.

The problem with IC engines is that every time you run them, you'll find something that needs tweaking. Worst is the phenomenon of a cylinder no longer firing, along for the ride, with the others powering the engine. VERY annoying, and you'll stop at nothing to fix it!

Enjoy!


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the tips Swede.

I currently am uploading a new video. I changed the distributor design. I was having trouble with stray sparks and hall sensors burning out. So I put an insulator between the cap and distributor body, and changed the rotor design to help isolate it. I have pictures that explain it but photobucket is down for the moment.

It is now running on all four cylinders, uncontrollably I might add, things get a little crazy no throttle. I always have a hand on the off switch for when she rev too high. I am waiting for some reamers for the carb, so a good one will have to wait till this weekend. I purchased plans for the Howell 2 jet throttle and am scaling it down 1/2. 

According to the formula of [carb venturi hole = 25% of the cylinder bore] I should be using a .094" venturi, but that is a bit small, so I will be using 1/8" instead. Any comments on this would be much appreciated.

BTW do you think I can get 5/32 OD O-rings at the hardware store? 

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

Error on the side of smaller. You would be suprized how small will work well.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Steve, I have not yet completely designed the carb yet. I am currently using a .094" venturi, I know Gail went even smaller with his Tiny. So I will keep it at the small end. 

At this scale the Howell carb might get difficult. Any Ideas on an easy idle circut? I have made a throttled carb this small, but no idle circut, and it did not work very well in the idle mode.

Here is the new vid.
"http://www.youtube.com/v/cloqXrp4ws8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US
I love this hobby!

Kel

Edit: If you watch closely at the 47 second mark you can see one of the rocker arms popping off. The valve cover is designed in such a way that it holds the pivot pins in place, but as you can see, without it they fall off. Or at least that one does all the time.


----------



## stevehuckss396

If you are going with the drum style carb you could drill an air bleed hole for a leaner idle.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
I have built the Howell 2 jet carb. It has some small drilling to do so if you scale it by 1/2 it might be quite hard to make. I'm not saying that it couldn't but it will be tricky.
Why not go with the more simple model airplane air bleed type carb. These can be made any size. If you have built one in the past the only thing you would need to add is the air bleed circuit as Steve mentioned. This consists of an air port that is drilled from the side of the carb at the centerline of the bore, not the barrel. It needs to be just slightly forward of the barrel centerline (toward the inlet). The flow of air through the bleed port is controlled by a screw that intersects it, nothing sophisticated just something to control how much air bleeds into the carb. 
The purpose is to reduce the amount of vacuum, and therefore the amount of fuel, that that is drawn through the carb at idle. Without it the engine will go rich and die out or load up the plugs. I'm attaching the drawing of the carb for my 4 cylinder engine. For yours I would scale the bore down but you could probably get away with using the other dimensions.
George 

View attachment 4 CYL OHV SHT J.pdf


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks a lot Steve and George. The drawing you included cleared up quite a bit for me. This design can be easily made and can be scaled down quite nice.

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

Now that photobucket is back up I though I would post a better pic of the engine.

So here it is.






Kel


----------



## kuhncw

Kel, your little 4 banger really looks nice and the valve cover really adds to the look. 

I enjoyed following your build.

Regards,

Chuck


----------



## Sparticusrye

Excellent build, fine looking engine.

James


----------



## awJCKDup

Kel, 
  Nice engine and build, I especially like the "equal length" header, although a collector on the end would look sweeeeeet! Any chance you can instruct us on bending small tubing in small radius?
Good job!
John


----------



## GailInNM

Beautiful photo of a
Beautiful Engine resulting from a
Beautiful build and thread.
Gail in NM


----------



## ironman

Kel, how about a picture of the other end and other side of the engine in a close up like the one above? Thanks
Sure is nice.

Ray (Ironman)


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks A lot for the compliments fellas. This really makes it all worth it.

John, the header is K&S brass tube which is bent with an off the shelf tubing bender.(which is sold by the same company) I had to anneal the tubing before I bent it, but that was pretty easy to do with a torch. I am going to be making another one in the next few weeks and will post pics or even a video of bending the tubes.

Ray, I should be able to get more pics of the engine up tomorrow. Photobucket doesn't seem to like a few of my pictures, they upload fine and then it fails, but not with all the pics, so its kinda weird. 

I do have quite a bit of work to do yet, but I could not help getting it running once I realized I made everything I needed to make it functional. :big:

Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Very, very nice work Kel. The engraving on the rocker cover gives it a professional look to go along with the rest of the engine.
gbritnell


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the kind words George. 

As promised (although late) I got a few more pics this morning before I tore it down for inspection.


























Kel


----------



## ironman

Thm: Thanks Kel for adding those pictures.
You have probably heard this before (like a hundred times), you sure did a nice job on that 4-Banger.
ironman (Ray)


----------



## kcmillin

I made a test carb this weekend, it seems to work alright, but the needle could use some work.

Here is the video of the new and improved Throttled and Revving Tiny 4

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Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
It sounds pretty good to me. The proper way to adjust them is to run the engine at high speed first and adjust the needle until it runs as fast and clean as it can. Now back the needle out ever so slightly (rich). This will prevent it from being too lean at high speed. Now close the throttle down to the idle position and adjust the air bleed screw until it runs as well as it can. If the engine stalls with the air bleed open just start closing a little. If it gets too rich open the air bleed up a little. If you get no response then the air bleed needs to be enlarged a little.
gbritnell


----------



## agmachado

Hi Kel,

Very cool your job... congratulations!!!

What do you still will to do in this project ?

Cheers,

Alexandre


----------



## ironman

Thm: Kel, I watched and listened to that video 3 times and all I can say is WOW, you got some sweet sounding engine there. Are you going to make a hotter cam for it and experiment or let it ride as a job well done? What's next? What carb design did you go with?
Enough questions. Great engine.

ironman (Ray)


----------



## kcmillin

Alexandre, I plan, no need, to build a water pump and radiator. Also a nice stand would be cool. I still have some work on the carb, some tweaks are in order.

I spent some time today running the engine, It is getting smoother and smoother, I just had a scary moment though, as I was running the engine it all the sudden really wanted to rev high, so I grabbed my trusty mechanical tach and proceeded to take measurments, as I was testing full throttle rpm the engine took on a life of its own (almost like when a diesel runs away) the tach was pegging at 9,500 RPM!!!!!!! Holy Crap, I shut her down with a HUGE smile on my face. I am not sure why it decide to rev so high, on my previous runs I was maxing at 6,000 RPM, but I am not complaining. 

I was under the impression that the CDI I purchased from S&S had a max of 12,000 sparks per minute, but at the reading I got (and I am sure of this) it was running 19,000 sparks per minute. I have not yet tried to duplicate my results, but an update will come soon.

I decided to re-post this video, it got buried on the last page.
(This is NOT the 9,000 rpm run)

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqBh0ORf4h8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AqBh0ORf4h8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

Kel


Ray, Thanks, You should have heard it today, I thought it was going to explode! :big:

I would like to experiment with a hotter cam, I am currently running 220 degree duration, I seen that Steve is going with 280 degree, so I might try a 240-250, well see. A choppy Idle would be pretty cool though. 

I went with a scaled down version of what George posted, I am using a .082" venturi, and the jet hole is .016". It seems about right, but some experimenting is in order.

Kel


----------



## doc1955

Boy she is sounding good!
This has been a nice build! :bow:


----------



## T70MkIII

Superb, Kel!


----------



## kustomkb

Nice work Kel.

Sounds like she really screams!!


----------



## coopertje

Wow, its really running well Kel and the sound is great. Much more agressive then expected for such a small engine, really love it!

Regards Jeroen


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks the compliments guys, it really means a lot. 

I made a proper flywheel for the engine today. It is 2" round steel, .650" wide. I used a split collared bushing design from Chuck Fellows. The flywheel weighs about 8oz. There are no spokes, it is mostly just a chunk of steel. I am just copying what I see, so I am not sure why most multi-cylinder engines use such heavy yet small flywheels. It does run a lot smoother now than it did with the spoked flywheel from my Poppin Flame Eater, but than again it is balanced a lot better too. 

Kel


----------



## hobby

Bravo,  th_wav

Beautiful job on your engine, and the real cool thing about it is, you can watch the video, and then go back into the build thread and be mesmerized seeing how the parts were individually being made, and to see all those parts come together to form a excellent running machine.

That's just so neat, it really gives inspiration, to want to learn how to design and build internal combustion models too, as well as air compressed models.


----------



## Marius

Fantastic sound  
Bravo


----------



## NickG

Kel, It's a mini beast!!! :bow: Just love it so much you must be very proud!


----------



## kcmillin

It has been a while since my last post on this project, been pretty busy with work, but I have managed to get some little parts done. I have made the base, nothing fancy just a black acetal (I think) 1" thick, with brass feet. I have also checked the radiator, water pump, fan, and bracket off the list. I also made a new header, I never was quite satisfied with the original, plus it was interfering with the water pump feed tube. I hope to get time to put up some pictures up in the next few days.  

During my experimental trial runs I am experiencing difficulty with the shaft on the water pump leaking. I am using unhardenend drill rod 3/32" for the shaft, and a brass bearing/water pump cap. If I were to switch to a bronze bushing this would help with wear, but I am thinking that it would still leak.

Any suggestions on getting the water pump drive shaft to seal? Water is so thin it loves to leak. 

Kel


----------



## cfellows

Very nice engine, Kel. Runs great and looks great too. Now I need to go back and look at the thread to see what the parts look like!

Chuck


----------



## steamer

Jerry Howell sells a magnetic drive water pump kit...now, I won't pretend it will fit on that engine Kel...far too big , but It might give you some ideas.....

Great looking engine Kel!

Dave


----------



## gbritnell

Once again Kel, great job. I know you follow other peoples postings and read about their trials and tribulations with getting engines to run. The satisfaction of overcoming those problems and getting yours to run so well I'm sure has you overjoyed. 
 I don't know what you have your ignition timing set at but here's something odd that I have found. When I first got my 4 cylinder engine running I was using the original point ignition with a 12 volt battery, 12 volt automotive ignition coil and some ballast resistors. Being as my distributor is tied to my carburetor linkage and advances when I open the throttle I had set the low speed advance to about 15 degrees BTDC and the wide open throttle advance to about 30 degrees. It always seemed to run well enough so I was happy.
 When I went to the electronic ignitions (Jerry Howell and S&S) I set my timing about the same as when I used the conventional ignition. It seemed to run and rev pretty well. I noticed when I built the Hall distributor for the 302 that I had to keep bumping the timing up to make the engine run better and better. The timing is fixed but is in the neighborhood of 42 degrees BTDC. 
 Before I go any farther here is how I set my timing. I have timing reference marks on the flywheel of the 4 cylinder engine and on the damper pulley of the 302. I hook everything up with a plug sitting on the bench. I turn then engine over until I get a spark at the plug. I do this several times just to be sure. Now I adjust my timing to where I think it should be. Seems to work fine. The only thing is when the engine is running the engine seems a little lazy, not bad but like I said I had to keep bumping the timing up on the 302 to the point where it seemed almost to far advanced, by automotive standards. 
 Now back to the 4 cylinder engine. I had taken the engine to the NAMES show and it was starting and running fine when all of a sudden it quit. Being that I had 3 other engines on the table I just let it go and figured I would look at it when I got home.
 Upon testing at home I found that the Hall sensor was bad so I replaced it. I then reset my timing to what I had stated previously. The engine started and ran ok. 
 I got to thinking about the timing on the 302 and how far advanced it was so I thought about playing with the 4 cylinder to see what would happen. I reset the low speed advance to almost double of what it was, 15-25 degrees and therefore the the full advance went up around 45 degrees. WOW! I'm here to tell you that this thing runs like it has never done in it's life. It's almost to the point that I'm afraid to rev it up because I don't want pieces all over my bench. 
 The point I'm trying to make is that it seems with the electronic ignitions there is a minute amount of delay in the spark from when the static timing is set to when the engine is actually running. 
 If you should want to experiment a little, advance your timing in small increments and see what happens.
 George


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for sharing your timing method George, I agree, these do seem to love the advance. I know what you mean about shedding parts, this little guy revs pretty high sometimes, I have held it at 8500rpm for at least 10 seconds, just to see if anything would give way, gotta get the weak links out somehow :big:

What I have been doing is setting the distributer while the engine is running, I leave the screw just a little loose so it will hold, but I can still turn it. There is a very wide range where it will run, but only a few Sweet Spots where she really hums.

I am still open for Ideas on the water pump shaft seal. Dave, I have been thinking about that, but as you said it is much to large, and to fit that in such a small space would be difficult, but it may be the only option for a good seal.

I am going to try to make a new shaft bushing out of bronze, I might even try some tiny rubber sealed ball bearings.

Kel


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Have you tried an o-ring seal? I've not looked for normal shaft seals in that size so I'm not sure if they are available. Sealed bearings may work, IF, they are a full contact variety. Most do not use contact seals and would leak anyway. Check bearing manufacturer literature for details of seals offered.


----------



## Admiral_dk

This is the smallest size oil seal I could find :

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=19_4463

Smaller than that will have to be O-rings as previously suggested.


----------



## steamer

For small sealed ball bearings, you might try the R/C car parts stores....you would be amazed

Dave


----------



## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I am still open for Ideas on the water pump shaft seal. Dave, I have been thinking about that, but as you said it is much to large, and to fit that in such a small space would be difficult, but it may be the only option for a good seal.


3/32 is a bit tough. Mcmaster has some spring loaded lip seals for shafts in 1/8.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the leads guys. 

Jeff, great find on McMaster! They are a little pricy in the smallest size, but the slightly larger ones are reasonable. 

Kel


----------



## Rustkolector

I have used O-rings on gear type water pump shafts on a couple of relatively high run time pumps and they work fine. I used one on an impeller pump immediately behind the impeller and it also seems to work, but I have very little run time on it. 

Jeff


----------



## Dave G

I used an o-ring behind the pulley on my Silver Bullet water pump back in 01 and haven't touched it since. I pushed the pulley on the shaft until the pulley just made contact with the o-ring, the o-ring is sandwiched between the pulley and pump housing. I also used a 1/8" SS dowel pin for the shaft in a brass housing. This engine sits on a shelf in my bedroom and is taken out a few times a year and run at shows, No problems so far. Oh yeah, by the way, I really like your engine, Dave


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Jeff and Dave. I will give the o-ring behind the pully a try. I just made a new bronze bushing and the leakage has gone down significantly, however it does mist a bit. 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

A bit of an update. 

I finally got success with the water pump. By milling a 1/4" recess around the shaft behind the gear inside the pump, then installing an o-ring. I am happy to say the it does its job quite well. Before incorporating the cooling system the engine would be incredibly hot, even the distributor would be untouchable. Now with the radiator installed the distributor remains quite cool. 

Sorry for the lack of pictures the batteries went dead as soon as I turned them on. I will get some 'Glamor Shots' up tomorrow. 

Also, I made new spark plugs, which are working like a champ. I still have the odd trouble of a few not working and shorting out inside the distributor though. I can see a spark jumping from the center of the distributor to a working cylinders cable. It seems to correspond with the no spark condition in certain cylinders. What is strange however is that it seems to work better on the forward cylinders, and fail more often in the rear. :shrug: 

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

What size plugs are you using. I am going to work on the #8-40's today and the thing I did when testing was crack the insulator when rolling the steel over the insulator. It usually cracked above the step. I made a die that goes into an arbor press that will get the first run today. Had good results not cracking them as long as I dont crunch them to hard.

I also made insulators for a #6-56 plug but have no plans to assemble them any time soon.


----------



## kcmillin

Steve, I am using a 1/8" spark plug, with 10-32 thread. They are just a bit smaller than the Tiny IC, which I based this off of. 

I used epoxy to hold everything together, so as far as I know there is no cracks in the insulator. I have had one or two which did crack, and yes, that did creat a short, but this new batch of plugs is ship shape. What is funny is a working plug in the number one cylinder turns into an intermittent problem in the number 4 cylinder. I may have issues in the distributor, as that seems to be where the short is, the spark does not even make it to the plug.

I took apart the distributor and found there to be quite a bit of corrosion on the contacts, and the white delrin is turning green?? I am using brass contacts inside the cap and on the rotor. I cleaned it all up and will try it again today. Why would the delrin turn green? I was able to wipe it off.

Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 To answer some of your questions here is what I've found. 
 First as to why the Delrin is turning green. With the inside of the distributor being sealed from outside air when it heats up from the engine running it forms condensation (cold to hot). This condensation, however minute corrodes the brass and this gives off the green film. I remember when I was a kid and they would have dime store rings or rings from Cracker Jack boxes that were made from brass. If you wore them they would turn your finger green, same thing. I have experience this on my Holt. To alleviate the problem I drilled a small vent hole in the cap.
 Now the seeming problem with the spark in the forward cylinders and not the rear. If the cap is clean of any carbon paths, something that would give erratic spark, then the problem could be with the compression being different in the cylinders. 
 A spark plug will 'spark' in the open air even with a fairly weak ignition but when you put it in the engine, no spark. This occurs because it takes more power from an ignition to spark the plug under compression. The more compression the hotter the spark needs to be. To have a plug work in one of your front cylinders but not so well in the rear ones I suspect that this could be the problem. 
 Another problem could be fuel delivery to the cylinders. On a couple of my engines the wire ends on the spark plug don't have boots over them. When a cylinder gets wet and fouls the plug the spark will look for the easiest path to ground. I have found that if I flood my engine, hit and miss or other, that the spark will jump from the top of the plug down the side of the plug or to some other close grounding source. Once the engine clears out and starts to run the external spark will go away. 
 With these small engines we are trying to keep most of our ignition components within the scale of the engine they are being use on. Herein lies the problem. It' all to easy for the spark to go wherever is the easiest path. There's a reason that the ignition components on a full sized engine are the sizes that they are, spark plug wires, distributor caps, etc. It's to prevent the problems that we are having with our small engines. If you look back at pictures of early multi-cylinder model engines like the Challenger V-8 they have oversized distributor caps on them. I'm sure the designers of these engines went through the same things that we are. They knew the distributors and caps were way out of scale with the rest of the engine but this was done to help prevent cross fire and other problems. 
 I know that the instructions for the S&S and Jerry Howell ignitions say never to have a gap larger than say .030 but I have seen the spark jump from my distributor cap or wire end almost .350 at times. It's probably not good for the ignition but what I'm saying is the ignition is hot enough to deliver this kind of power so at times the spark can go anywhere. 
 I'm sure if you ran your engine in the dark you would see all kinds of sparking going on. 
 I know when I was a kid working on car engines with bad spark plug wires you could see this happening especially when the engine was damp. 
George


----------



## Rustkolector

Kel,
I am just catching up on your build after a long absence. You have done a great job on this engine probect. Unless I missed it somewhere in your build postings, I have not seen reference to a lubrication system for this engine. Could you explain the internal lubrication system you are using for this little engine?

Jeff


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the great information George. A vent hole sounds like a good idea. I seems to get it to run nicer now, at least all cylinders are firing MOST of the time. The rear cylinder still has problems with flooding, I should try to check the valves, perhaps there is a sticky one.

Jeff, it is a splash lubrication system, with wd-40 in the gas for the valves. 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

Well as promised, here are the pictures.

Still no gas tank or air cleaner yet.






























































Well, thats about it. I can pretty much call this one finished. 

Thanks everyone for looking in and giving your advice. It is very much appreciated. 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

George, In response to your great writeup on model ignition systems. What can I do with the gap on the spark plug? I have it at its max of 25 thou, which is only slightly more, a few thou, than the side of the ground strap, and un-coincidently the same as Gail is using on his Tiny IC.

  I should have tried this already, but would decreasing the gap make it more likely to operate correctly? Or would I experience more 'flooding' conditions? I never quite understood gap on spark plugs.


Kel


----------



## Admiral_dk

The spark gap is a compromise. You would like it to be as big as possible, in order to get a bigger surface on the spark and therefor a more efficient ignition of the gas mixture. This requires a higher voltage from the coil than with a smaller gap and increases the chance that the spark jumps some where else.

A small gap can be the solution for a weak ignition system (can't count how many times this got one of the mopeds of my youth running), but there's a big chance that this will stop the engine running from time to time if there's any oil in the gas (carbon buildup).

I can only suggest that you experiment with the gap in a systematic fashion - E.I. : Write the results of plug inspection down for each gap size, starting with .02" and working your way up to .06" in .01" increments or for us metric guys .3mm. to .7mm. in .1mm. increments (not quite the same, but close enough).

I will admit that the fact that your Tiny isn't really working (having a load) isn't going to make it run better - quite the opposite. It will look stupid, but in order to make it run better, you could temporary mount it in such a way, that you can mount a propeller as a load and run it close to max. revs - alternatively, have a dynamo or generator in a propper size with a lamp as a load. This should make the sparkplug inspection a lot more accurate.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 To be honest I've never experimented with the spark gap. When I make my plugs I machine the ground strap in place as opposed to bending it over, so I try for somewhere between .025-.030. I would think this would give you an adequate gap to prevent fouling and at the same time provide a healthy spark. 
 As with carburetion, at least from my perspective, I have a basic design for a carb, from there I play with the air bleed and when I get the engine to run to my satisfaction I don't go any farther.
 When I first got into motorcycle tuning and repair there was a gadget called the color tune spark plug. One of my buddies bought one and we all checked out our bikes, more for the novelty of it than anything else. As I'm writing this I opened up another window and did a search and son-of-a-gun they still make it. I'm attaching the link to it.
http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm
What I'm getting at here is I make my plugs following automotive principal, except smaller naturally. I use different sizes of plug wire, some quite small that I get from S&S. Although it has a high KV rating it doesn't have much insulation as compared with full sized practice. I use some Jerry Howell ignitions and some S&S ignitions, I even have my old standby automotive type. As far as experimentation I don't have the electrical background, or tools to do this kind of work. Who knows what' going on inside these little engines. Surprisingly with these diminutive ignitions we don't have more problems than we do. 
 There's only a couple of things that should be followed when building an engine with a distributor, first make it as large as possible, and second if you're using an electronic ignition make sure that you provide a 'good' ground connection when using a Hall setup. As I mentioned earlier they seem to like more advance too. 
 I have heard fellows talk about trying to put the Hall sensor in the distributor and continually burning them out. One way to get around this is to have a crank trigger which gets the Hall sensor completely away from the distributor. I made mine like yours with the sensor mounted outside and down away from the rotor and cap. I have had very good results with this setup. 
 Just make sure everything is clean and hooked up well. You can also rotate the engine by hand an feel each cylinder as it comes up on compression. Each one should feel about the same. If one of your rear cylinders seems low that could account for the wetness and missing from that cylinder. 
 George


----------



## kcmillin

Hello All. 

I am still working the bugs out. I made a new camshaft with a 260 duration on both, the original was 220. This made the engine breath better and decreased the compression ratio. I also made a dished spot in the top of the piston to accommodate the slightly longer spark plugs. This combination seemed to help alot with the spark issue. 

Now when running the engine I can get it to idle for extended amounts of time and still have decent throttle response. Something neat now, after revving the engine up it seems to high idle for a few seconds then it drops another 800rpm or so and stays at that idling. It Idles around 2500 to 3000, kinda high but it don't want to run any slower, and it revs routinely to 7800rpm, and with tweaks to the ignition timing and mixture it will rev to 9000 rpm. I can run my finger on the flywheel and give the engine a significant load for a period of time without loading up the engine and flooding out. 

All and all I am very pleased with its performance. It seems to like Coleman camping fuel and gasoline, but if I try pure naptha or alcohol it does not run very well. Perhaps I should try some of that racing fuel like George 

I am also thinking about increasing the duration on the exhaust valves to 280, and leaving the intake at 260. I would like to exhaust valve to open a little sooner. This would give it a louder, throatier, chopier sound. 

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I made a new camshaft with a 260 duration on both



Now your talking!!

I made a 300/300 for the blown V8 and a 280/280 for the carbed V8


----------



## Kermit

air is an insulator to electricity. The higher your voltage the bigger the gap which it can 'jump'.

The resistance of the air DECREASES with an increase of pressure, meaning that a spark can jump at a lower voltage in engines with higher compression ratio's

Roughly speaking, for the same voltage, you need a wider spark gap in a high compression engine than you do in a low compression one to keep the timing identical.

Conversely you need higher voltage for the same gap size in a low compression engine.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kermit,
I was always taught the opposite. The higher the compression, the more spark power is required. 
http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/spark_plugs/s_plug_faq.htm
gbritnell


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Kermit  said:
			
		

> The resistance of the air DECREASES with an increase of pressure, meaning that a spark can jump at a lower voltage in engines with higher compression ratio's
> 
> Roughly speaking, for the same voltage, you need a wider spark gap in a high compression engine than you do in a low compression one to keep the timing identical.



As pressure increases the voltage required to jump the gap in the cylinder increases! Add rich mixture and dirty electrodes and even more voltage is needed. The voltage rise in the ignition is extremely fast. I'd like to see how many degrees it takes for the voltage to rise twice as high as typical. Racing engines (high compression, rich mixture) need high power high voltage ignition systems.


----------



## Kermit

That means my physics texts are lying to me?

Quote: 

Sea level air resistance = 4 x 10^13 Ohms
@12Km above sea level = 1.3 x 10^16 Ohms

A much higher resistance at 12 Km above sea level, which indicates TO ME at least, that resistance DECREASES with increasing pressure.


----------



## GailInNM

Kermit,
Your physics texts are correct, The problem is that breakdown voltage for a spark to occur in gas has nothing to do with the resistance between the electrodes. 

With a voltage between two electrodes, the volume around the negative electrode (cathode) will become ionized and the free electrons will be accelerated generally toward the positive electrode by the electric field. But along the way they strike other gas molecules and if the energy is sufficient they in turn have an electron stripped. Some of these electrons will head toward the anode, but some become diffused. The higher the pressure the more the diffusion because of the increased number of molecules that are between the anode and the cathode. Only when a complete conductive ionized path is constructed does a spark occur. 

This is a simplified description, but is just to show that the mechanics of a spark are very different from the resistance between two electrodes. 

Gail in NM


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Refer to "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals" John B. Heywood, pg 427. There are probably online references, but this is one of my most used engine references.


----------



## Lakc

GailInNM  said:
			
		

> This is a simplified description, but is just to show that the mechanics of a spark are very different from the resistance between two electrodes.
> 
> Gail in NM



That also explains that if you research early avaition engines they wound up pressurizing the ignition wires to prevent misfire at altitude. It took a long time for me to make sense of that, but as Gail points out, the mechanics of spark follow their own rules.


----------



## kcmillin

Well, with all the great information, I have managed to make the spark plugs more reliable by increasing the gap.

There is another bug which I cant get figured out. Ever since installing the cooling system the engine can take quite awhile to start. It requires the assistance of the dremel until it gets warmed up. Then it will run all day long. The whole time I am trying to start it I am playing with the timing and needle setting, so there are many variables. I am going to try eliminating the cooling system somewhat by removing the belt for startup. Any other ideas on cold starting?

 The engine runs more freely when it is cold, then when it is warm. Which seems strange, because when it revs, it revs smooth and can rev very high. I am still seeing the 8400+ RPM spikes, and can hold the engine at a 7800 for 15 seconds. (I know, I know, why would I do this? Because I built it, thats WHY! :big 

Kel


----------



## mu38&Bg#

If you are burning gasoline, it needs a substantial enrichment to start and run cold. A choke might make this easier.


----------



## stevehuckss396

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> If you are burning gasoline, it needs a substantial enrichment to start and run cold. A choke might make this easier.



I never adjust the timing after it is set. I unscrew the fuel screw an extra 1/4 turn and choke with my finger just for a second. Usually works with little trouble. As it warms up, screw back in slowly.


----------



## kcmillin

Well, I may have found a problem. I was adjusting the valves, and noticed that one of them was not adjusting, it just kept getting deeper and deeper in the valve seat. Upon removal of the head I noticed that valve's seat was completely gone, and the valve was getting close to going past the intake runner. This undoubtedly was causing problems. So I will be installing a couple new valves.

I also noticed again that 3 out of 4 cylinders were sloppy on the crank journals. I just fixed this! (I thought) perhaps it don't really like to rev. One of the bronze bushing was completely gone, and the rest were quite worn down. There is a layer of bronze powder in the bottom of the oil pan. Darn these crank journals are a PIA. I will now be doing some design work to help solve the problem. I plan on making the bushing larger, and reducing the bolts from 2-56 to 0-80. This will give me more room for bushings. The entire time the engine is running I like to keep it oiled, if it stops smoking, I add more. Since the main seals were an afterthought, they don't work so well, and leakage is an issue.

Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
I'm confused by your explanation. You said that the valve was going deeper and deeper into the valve seat so why would you be making a new valve? It seems like the seat would need to be repaired.
On my 4 cylinder engine I use split bronze bearings for the crank with a splash oil system and I've never had to replace them. Now the big end of the rods is another story. I have had to refit them several times because of wear. Not bad but they were still a little loose. 
George


----------



## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I also noticed again that 3 out of 4 cylinders were sloppy on the crank journals. I just fixed this! (I thought) perhaps it don't really like to rev. One of the bronze bushing was completely gone, and the rest were quite worn down. There is a layer of bronze powder in the bottom of the oil pan.


What did you use for the final finish on the crank journals? I usually take that last 1.5 thou off with progressive grits of emery cloth 180-320-400 grit, and make sure the crankshaft is rotating the same direction as it would in final assembly, so the "hairs" of the crank lay down in the correct direction.


----------



## kcmillin

George, the valve itself has been hammered smaller. The valve got quite thin during machining, and was delicate to begin with. The other valves are a bit thicker on the big end and subsequently stronger. The valve seat on the worn out valve is in good shape still, I will need to make a light pass with the valve seat cutter, and then burnish the new to its seat with a jewelers rouge concoction. 

Jeff, I used sandpaper up to 600 grit. I also inspected each journal with a magnifying glass. They are quite smooth, but may be out-of-round. I used emery cloth and sandpaper to get the journals back to round, then using a blade micrometer as a gauge slowly worked them to a true round. But because I did not do this on the lathe, it may not be perfect. My last resort is to make yet another crankshaft. I am surly getting my practice in.

The bushings I originally used were .005", brass shim stock. These probably wore down immediately. My second bushing were made from a bronze bar. They were .010 thick, these were better, and the crank was much less worn after inspection, but alas they did not last. So, my third option is to make .020" bushing from bronze. I am currently half way through fitting them. They physically appear to be much larger and perhaps better at handling the impact. Well see. 

One major flaw of my bushing design may be that they are one piece, split in one spot with a very thin dremel cut off wheel. This leaves a gap in the bushing. Now that my bushings are getting larger I may be able to use a split bushing design which is more traditional. Using two pieces of bronze soldered together then machined.

Plan D, or E, or whatever. Will be to make square holes in the connecting rod ends, then machining square bushings. This will guarantee the bushing will not spin in the connecting rod.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Ok Kel, years ago as I was discussing making model crankshafts, with a crankshaft engineer of all people, he stressed the final direction of emery cloth was extremely important, thought I would pass that along.

Your valve problem is likely heat, and the head had too thin a cross section as you mentioned. Valve heat is dissipated through the stem and seat, so it helps to have a little extra meat in those places.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Jeff, I do appreciate any input, and your advise is sound.

Here is a video I took before I tore it down. By the time I decided to take a video its performance had been increasingly getting worse. I found two hammered valves, both intake and both of them were on one side of the engine and share an intake runner. Not sure if this has anything to do with the problem, just thought I would mention it. Also the rod issue, which was pushing 3/32" on the worst one. Good thing I notched the pistons to clear the spark plugs. 

It is running on three cylinders for the majority of the video, towards the end of the video it cleans out and runs a little better, still not 100% though. Hopefully my new enhancements make a better engine. 

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-bM0m1-ynI?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V-bM0m1-ynI?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Kel


----------



## Rustkolector

Kel,
I think your rod bearing problems are due to the combination of high rotational speeds and splash lubrication. I don't think splash systems work well in engines over 4000-5000 RPM, especially tiny ones. Can you describle you splash system i.e. oil volume, oil type used, rod dipper type and size, etc?

Jeff


----------



## kcmillin

Jeff, I have to admit that the lubrication system is incredibly crude. I rely on the rod cap bolts to skim the oil, but I think there may be something els going on.

 When I run the engine with the pushrod cover off, oil is literally getting sprayed out the breather holes, which are located between each cylinder. Granted the camshaft is right there, but it does spray. This is leading me to think that the crankshaft, and connecting rods are creating turbulent air splashing the oil around. Although I could be wrong. The engine smokes when there is sufficient oil in the crankcase, and I also add WD-40 to the gas. I am using regular 10-30 oil in the crankcase. 

There is an acceptable amount of blow by from the o-rings, and the cylinder bore and piston are in very great shape. I also am replacing the drill rod wrist pins. They were also worn down. It seems that the aluminum in this engine is winning all the fights. Even the lead-steel tappets are wearing down. The all brass gears are wearing down a little bit, but are still acceptable. The idler gear is showing the most signs of wear, and the bevel gears are doing the best. They do get plenty of oil, since that is where the oil that leaks comes from. I have yet to see clean oil coming out of the engine. 

I should say I am having a blast finding problems. I have always enjoyed inspecting wear in my engines, and this little guy is is giving me plenty. Even better, this gives me the knowledge and experience to build a better engine, which I can then proceed to destroy :big: 

I am in the rebuild process right now and hope to have her running by tonight, or tomorrow. 

Kel


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

Perhaps a pressurized oiling system could be added?

I believe while you are seeing the oil being churned into a mist, the centrifical forces are trying to throw the oil out of the rod bearings.

Looking at it backwards maybe, but imagine trying to lubricate something under pressure that is flailing about over 5-6k with just a mist?

Great job on the engine, sounds great ;D


----------



## Lakc

t.l.a.r. eng  said:
			
		

> Looking at it backwards maybe, but imagine trying to lubricate something under pressure that is flailing about over 5-6k with just a mist?


The nice thing about mist lubrication, is that its awful hard to avoid inside the crankcase. A diagonal hole from the piston side of the con rod big end can use that mist to lube the crankpin. Most commercial 4 stroke model aircraft engines lube the crankpin at ungodly rpm's with the blowby from the rings alone. Most American V8 engines lube one of the hardest loaded parts, the camshaft, with the mist from the crankshaft.


----------



## Rustkolector

Kel,
As I have found on much slower speed engines, a wide dipper can totally suspend the oil contents of the crankcase. I would consider a 3/32" wide dipper excessively wide for even medium speed. Too much oil in suspension creats friction that actually adds heat to the oil. With your high speeds, splash is difficult and needs some control. On some older motorcycles and older multi cylinder model engines, a baffle was used under the crankshaft which provided controlled flow of oil into a trough where the oil was picked up by each con rod dipper. It prevented the dippers from pulling all the oil into suspension. The best example I could find is this photo from the Edgar Westbury designed "Seal" engine team build: 

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/SealCooneyPan.jpg

The hole in the bottom of the trough apparently limits the amount of oil available for the rods, allowing splashed oil to constantly drain back to the sump. The Seal doesn't appear to use dippers on the rods. This system provides lower rod lubrication as well as an internal oil mist for fhe rest of the engine parts, but not a flood of oil. Ideally on slower engines, the rod dippers are small narrow scoops (sometimes hollow tubes) that direct a portion of the oil directly into the rod cap. The rest is splashed radially about the engine. The dippers can be solid but there should be a hole or two in the rod to allow splashed oil to directly enter the rod journal. It is a reasonably good system for medium speed engines, but I don't know the upper RPM limit of splash systems. You migh want to talk with someone that was on the Seal team build project. 

Jeff


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the tip on the baffle Jeff. I will be thinking about that.

Well, I got her back together last night and tried to start it. I tried and tried but to no avail. I noticed that the "acceptable" amount of blow by had turned into an excessive amount. So teardown of the bottom end was in order. It the time I tried to get her running it did here and there, and it would rev high. Upon inspection of the con rods they are in excellent shape. No slop. So with new o-rings in the pistons if was back together. Nothing, still would not run reliably, but the compression was there. I had suspected my spark plug wires for probl;ems from the get go. I just had freyed ends inside the boots. I decided to make a new set with soldered ends like Steve. Once I had these installed it was time to start it again. This time, BAM!!!! it started right up and ran beautifully, except for one major thing. It had a bad knock. OH NO!! I thought, my con rods again!! Argggg. So I decided to tear it down once again, I think this makes about ten times already. The rods were in good shape still, so it must be something els. I looked closer at the oil pan and noticed that the connecting rods were hitting the inside of the pan. Hmmmmm, why is this? It did not do it before. But I realized that I had shimmed the rod caps to pre-tension the new, larger bushings. So a quick swipe with the dremel and it was assembly time again. I am happy to report that it started first try and ran nice with no knocks. 

Now, off to a problem with the cooling system. I am getting leakage out of the radiator cap. If I seal it with teflon, than it just builds presser and leaks elswhere. I am contemplating an overflow tank. What do I have to know to get the coolant to siphon back up into the radiator? Like on the real deal.

Kel


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 Here's how the closed cooling system works. The water heats and builds pressure to the point that the radiator cap allows the excess pressure, and water, to overflow into the overflow tank. As the radiator is totally full of coolant the line is constantly full, kind of like bleeding brakes. Now when the heat is removed (engine no longer running) the radiator cools and upon doing so creates a vacuum in the system. The same principal was used in the early 'steam engines' to pump out the mines. Steam was applied to the piston which would make it move then cold water was introduced to the cylinder which would create the vacuum and move the piston back to the other end of the cylinder, and so forth and so on. 
 Now the only problem for model engines it creating the pressure cap with the vacuum check valve small enough to make it work. 
 What I do on my engines is to screw the cap into the radiator tightly then drill a hole from the side through the flange and into the center of the cap. I then solder an overflow line into the hole and pipe it away from the cap and down the side of the radiator. When the engine gets to the point that it's hot enough to push the coolant out of the overflow I shut it down and let it cool. The water boils at 212 degrees so I figure that's hot enough to run the engine. 
George


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
I should have attached these in my last post but didn't think of it till after I hit the post key.
George


----------



## stevehuckss396

I did the same as George as far as the tubing goes. I ran a 1/16 brass tube down the radiator into a small glass bottle. Peewee runs unpressurized.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the pics Guys! That seems like a winning idea. 

George, where did you get that tiny Ford symbol from? 

I may have curbed the problem a bit. My filler cap threads into a brass plug which is epoxy'd into the top of the radiator. The plug sticks down past the ceiling in the radiator, so when the water hits the bottom of the plug there is a cushion of air trapped in the top of the radiator, and the water has nowhere to go but out. What I have done is drill holes through the threaded plug towards the top of the rad, this should at least equalize the pressure. There seems to be much much less water coming out now, if any, but I think I will still require an overflow.

Another issue. With my starter. The engine seems to have a lot more compression now, and therefor much harder to start. The dremel o-ring starter is slipping more now. I want to keep the flywheel smooth, so grooving it is out of the question, plus I dont like applying the sideways pressure to the bushing.

What are the alternatives to this method? Some kind of dogbone setup?

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Another issue. With my starter. The engine seems to have a lot more compression now, and therefor much harder to start. The dremel o-ring starter is slipping more now. I want to keep the flywheel smooth, so grooving it is out of the question, plus I dont like applying the sideways pressure to the bushing.



I used a slip or clutch bearing. A 1/4 inch rod is inserted thru the radiator and into the hub on the crank. The rod spins one way and locks up the other so it locks clockwise and slips after the engine starts and revs to a speed faster than the starter. You can almost make it out in the same picture.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 I'm really surprised that your Dremel would start the engine in the first place. 
The only positive fix that I can suggest is a one-way roller bearing clutch. They make them in standard inch and metric sizes. Looking at the picture of your engine you have the crankshaft sticking out quite a distance from the flywheel. Although they recommend using these bearings with a hardened shaft you might get away with using it on your shaft if it's a standard size. On my engines the flywheel is machined to accept the O.D. of the appropriate bearing and I use a hardened dowel in either a model airplane type starter or as is the case with my 302 I use a cordless drill. 
 I have used different methods for starting over the years and have found this setup to be the simplest one going. 
 I get my bearings from https://sdp-si.com/eStore/
They're under clutches/unidirectional, although you might find them elsewhere. 
 If your shaft isn't a standard size then the only other options would be to make a new flywheel to accept the bearing or make an adapter to bolt to your flywheel. In either case your crankshaft would need shortening.
George


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Guys. Like an R/C starter. Unfortunately my crankshaft is .240". This is because I needed to go a littler further to true it up. I like the method of using a 1/4" dowel and a one way bearing sticking out from the shaft.

How about using a large ring gear behind the flywheel and an electric brushless motor, like a real starter on a car. If I setup the motor on a pivot, I could even use it like the real deal. Then I suppose there is the matter of finding a strong enough motor in a small enough size not to look goofy. 

Maybe even a large brushless motor connected directly to the crankshaft. Could this be used as a starter, flywheel, and load device all in one?


Kel


----------



## steamer

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Thanks Guys. Like an R/C starter. Unfortunately my crankshaft is .240". This is because I needed to go a littler further to true it up. I like the method of using a 1/4" dowel and a one way bearing sticking out from the shaft.
> 
> How about using a large ring gear behind the flywheel and an electric brushless motor, like a real starter on a car. If I setup the motor on a pivot, I could even use it like the real deal. Then I suppose there is the matter of finding a strong enough motor in a small enough size not to look goofy.
> 
> Maybe even a large brushless motor connected directly to the crankshaft. Could this be used as a starter, flywheel, and load device all in one?
> 
> 
> Kel




I suppose it could Kel. The little brushless motor in my son's 1/18th scale RC truck pulls 90 amps at 7.4V peak!.....damn near 1 HP at 40000 rpm...Do you know the torqure requirements to turn you engine over?

Dave


----------



## kcmillin

steamer  said:
			
		

> Do you know the torqure requirements to turn you engine over?
> 
> Dave



I am not sure. How would I determine that?

Kel


----------



## steamer

Thats a tough one Kel.

What do you have to measure torque?  maybe a torque wrench or a fish scale and some string around a pulley?....maybe.... if you can figure out how much torque to pull past dead center on compression and double it, you should be good to go to size a motor.



Dave


----------



## Lakc

A beam or dial type torque wrench would be the ideal way to measure torque. Once you have that, you can divide the torque required by your ring gear to pinion ratio.


----------



## kcmillin

I don't have a beam torque wrench in in-lbs. But I do have an in-lb screwdriver. I will have to get it calibrated since I do not trust it at the moment. 

  Good news with the radiator. I made an overflow tube as per the usual. ;D
Once installing it I then ran the engine long and hard, and it did its job quite nice. I also noticed that when I put the end of the tube in a small container with water in it, when the engine warm up it bubbles a bit and lets some coolant out, then when it cools down, almost immediately the water gets sucked back up into the radiator. Hooray!! 

Now I just need to do some more 'Testing' :big: to figure out how big of a container I will need. The cooling systems capacity is 13cc, pretty small, but so far it seems to be enough. 

But first, a water pump re-build is in order. The bushing is completely slopped out. Miraculously it managed not to leak until after I showed to some V.I.P's, but I will need to install a new bushing. Since the wear is corresponding with direction of the belt which holds tension, I will make the bushing longer, protruding outside the pump. I will then need to countersink the water pump pulley to compensate for this. 

Currently the water pump pulley is overdriven from the crank, and this little bushing is hitting over 10,000rpm, there is a lot of forces. The original shaft was untouched 1/8" drill rod. What is the surface finish of raw drill rod?? I am going to make a new shaft using some 1500 and 2000 grit sandpaper to eliminate any surface imperfections, and possibly using a larger pulley to slow it down a bit.

My method of joining the acetal gear to the shaft is by taking a razor blade and scoring the shaft lengthwise where the gear will be. This gives raised areas on the shaft which grip the acetal gear quite nice. until you take it apart a few times that is. I will also be making a new gear, luckily I made the gear blank long enough for a spare or two. 

Kel


----------



## jpeter

To measure torque just wrap a string around the shaft and pull with a weight or spring scale to measure how hard you have to pull to adaquatly spin it. Multipy the scale or weight reading by the radius of the shaft and you'll have calculated torque. Seems like a brushed type dc motor has more starting torque than a brushless type. Brushed is cheaper too cuz you don't need the control.


----------



## Jared

How about a gearhead motor for a starter? You can find pretty much any size, torque, or rpm you want.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Guys. I think the string method is a winner. Once I get the engine put back together (Yes I took it apart again, more on that later) It will have new o-rings installed and should by the 'tightest' reading I can get. 

Jared, good idea with the gear motor. However I would like the starter to be a permanent fixture on the engine, and most gear motors are about the same size as this entire engine (OK a little bit smaller, but too big nonetheless)



Now, I have ran the engine many times, and vary hard too. I have decided to run the engine as hard as I possibly can, while it is on the stand. I am looking for the proverbial 'Weak Link'. A few things I have been doing is advancing the timing to a point of knocking. This should create a lot of forces on the pistons and connecting rod bearings. Also, extended periods of 'load', By holding a piece of rubber on the flywheel, and holding the engine at full throttle working the engine very hard. This usually will start the cooling system to a boil, then I keep going for as long as there is a sufficient amount of water in the radiator. 

  This morning I decided was the time to tear it apart, but first one more run. I got the engine up to 7800 rpm, then I held it there for 2 full tanks of gas, adding water as necessary. This was about 45 minutes of full throttle, no holds barred engine destruction. I thought for sure It was going to break somewhere, but it just kept going. 

So, on with the tear down report. 
   I was very pleased to find my new connecting rod bushings are holding up beautifully. There was a slight slop in a few which I had shimmed. I removed the shims and there tight, and move free. 

  The wrist pins are showing wear, and will be replaced. I have not drilled any oil holes for them, so this is not a surprise. Holes will be added this time. 

  The o-rings are indeed wearing out, but I don't think this is what they were intended to be used for. They do work quite well, and do last a decent amount of time. Had I not been so hard on the engine, they would not be so bad.

  The bronze idler gear shaft has significant wear, and has been replaced with a drill rod shaft. The brass gears have some backlash, unacceptable for NASA but good enough for me. These will eventually be replaced by a combination of 12L14 and 7075 Ali. 

  Both bronze bushings on either end of the engine are in great shape, and do not need replacing.

  The valves are looking good as well. I may replace a couple rocker arms though. 

  Water pump is still holding up, and the overflow system is working perfectly. 

  Camshaft looks good, but the leaded steel tappets are slightly mushrooming.

So all and all I am pleased with the engine. I would still like to find a few more weak links before I decide to go full out with plans. 

The biggest problems I am experiencing is with the spark jumping do to flooded spark plugs, or plugs that just don't want to work. I am realizing there is a reason that R/C manufactures don't put ignition systems on engines this small. 

Also, the carb could use some refining, but I do have the fuel tank 2 inches below the venturi, so that could have something to do with it.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

When we test we learn, so I am really glad to hear you thrashing it about. 
You might want to just monitor the tappets. 12L isnt really known for work hardening, but I imagine there could be enough where the initial wear rate would diminish. The rest you seem to have well under control.


----------



## kcmillin

Got her back together again. 

Reset the cam timing, I had it advanced one tooth on a 30 tooth gear. I was wondering about it for awhile there. It must have been pushing exhaust into the intake manifold and into the carb. Now the valve overlap at top dead center is almost perfect, no more than a couple degrees off. Even with the 260 duration, the exhaust valve could open a little sooner. I have yet to make a 260I-280E Cam. FWIW I also increased the lift by .003" for a total of .040" lift.

I also made a few more spark plugs. For some reason there were just a few Bunk plugs. After replacing the engine runs much better. 

I am still using the third generation Carb, with homemade needle. This should be replaced by a sewing needle soon. I have not yet made it to the sewing store :big: 

So, here is the latest video of the TI4. I have it running good, then I flood the engine to show the new ability for it to flood without spark issue. HOORAY! Shortly after that I touch the battery, and it don't like to be touched, because it kills the engine. But it is running much much better.

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qe2vioXrIKg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qe2vioXrIKg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Thanks For looking folks. I have two more related videos uploading now. 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

Here is a vid of the tachometer I am using to gauge speed. It was made in the early 60's and is 100 times more reliable than my fancy digital tach. Plus I love using mechanical devices.

I have it set on 3000-30,00RPM, so read the outer scale. It approaches 9000 RPM, but I can;t get it to stay there quite yet. Plus it is hard to tune the high speed when your fiddling with a tach in one hand, revving the engine with the other, and with the aid of my teeth, I am holding the camera by the neckstrap, trying to keep it in frame :big:

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-XQmKh7JtU?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-XQmKh7JtU?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>


Kel


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## kcmillin

Here is the same vid from the last page. I figured I would post it again since it got buried on the last page.

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qe2vioXrIKg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qe2vioXrIKg?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

Here is the overflow tank in action.

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/brwoUWA9qpA?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/brwoUWA9qpA?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="390" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Kel


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## Lakc

Looks and sounds real good! I made a 280 cam and forgot to take into account the lash, so the final duration and overlap were less then expected. Moral of the story is have fun making a bigger cam. ;D


----------



## GailInNM

Just great Kel. It gets better every time I look at it.
Gail in NM


----------



## steamer

I really like the radiator....I'll need to review that.


 :bow: :bow:
Dave


----------



## T70MkIII

Kel - what a brilliant little engine you have made. I have enjoyed every step of the way, and really appeciate your detailed thread. Looking forward to any minor remaining tweaks.

What's your next project? Whatever it is, I can't wait to watch it come together...


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Guys!

Dave, I did not document the building of the radiator, I was not sure I was even going to use it. I can tell you it is made from 9 pieces of aluminum. Five 1/2" square aluminum bars drilled through and finned. The end caps are hollowed out, then there is an aluminum cover with 5 holes in it to receive the finned bars. It was then glued together with epoxy.

Richard, I still have not decided whats next. I am still working out all the kinks in this engine. 

The rear main bearing has worn out more quickly since I put the baffle in. It seems that there is no oil getting to it, which seems weird since the front and rear are identical and the front is OK. I will be making a new bushing, this time putting small slots in the end to encourage oil into it. 

I was seeing RPM numbers above 9000 again. I got her to peak at 9600 RPM. 
I am using the S/S model engine CDI ignition. It is only rated at 12,000 sparks a minute, and at 9600 RPM that is over 19,000 Sparks per minute. So I am vastly over the so called Maximum.

This makes me think, What are you V8 guys using for CDI ignition? I know there was a discussion on this, but I can't remember what the outcome was.

Kel


----------



## Speedy

Kel.
its always enjoying watching this engine in action.
love the sound of this little monster!

I can only dream of a multiple cylinder engine :bow:
need to start my first engine, have the tools. I think I am shying away from trying 
using as an excuse would be my tractor hobby.

more videos please ;D


----------



## NickG

Kel, what an amazing project you must be so chuffed.  :bow:


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
I have 2 ignitions, one a Jerry Howell design and one an S&S. I have used both of them on my 4 cylinder engine, which has the highest rpm of the bunch. They both seem to work fine except the Jerry Howell seems to make it run a little cleaner. By that I mean it revs up a little crisper but overall I can't tell much difference. Oh yeah, my 4 cylinder will hit about 8900 rpm.
George


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Guys! 

I think I found out why the rear main was getting no oil. When I took it apart to fix the bearing I noticed there was a ring of RTV sealant around the crank inside the engine. This was acting like an oil seal and preventing the oil from getting to the bearing. I have now installed a new bearing, minus the RTV sealant. I also filed tiny grooves on the bearings inner face, this should encourage oil into the bearing.

Now that I got her back together and started up again, the rear main is leaking. HOORAY!! Now I know it is getting oil. It leaks because there is no rear main seal, only an o-ring between the flywheel and block.

I am thinking about making some kind of mold to make seals out of RTV sealant. I am thinking about using acetal, as nothing seems to stick to it, and should make an ideal mold material. 


Kel


----------



## ironman

Kel, I love the research and design mods you make on this engine. It is great to see someone take the time and energy to perfect their design. My hat is off to you. From beginning to present (I know it is not finish yet), you have done a fabulous job on this engine. Keep at it.
ironman (Ray)


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## GailInNM

Kel,
For molding your oil seal, you might want to try using Quick-Sil, sometime marketed as Quik-Sil, silicon putty. It is a two part silicon putty and not critical as far as measuring. Equal parts A and B and mix with your hands. Cures in about 5 minutes to demold and about an hour for full cure. Can be used to make food molds so it is non toxic. When molding it does not stick to anything except it's self so you can use metal molds if desired.

I don't know how well it would wear as an oil seal but it should be comparable to any silicon compound. I have used quite a bit of it for mold making for quick and dirty molds for epoxy parts. Shelf life of about a year but could probably be extended if it were refrigerated.

Many jewelery making suppliers have it and most of them have a small 3 ounce package for about $9. Sometimes shows up on e-bay and Micro-Mark used to carry it.

One supplier is:
http://www.esslinger.com/quick-silrubbermoldsiliconecompound-3oz.aspx

Their shipping is under $4 if you have it sent first class mail.

Gail in NM


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## kcmillin

Thanks for the tip Gail. That looks like some neat stuff. 

I was thinking about making a metal outer race for the seal, and molding it directly into it. This would keep it from spinning, and hole it in place. I might need to incorporate some little fingers on the race to grab the silicone, and stop it from wandering. Also, how much smaller should I make the ID of the seal than the crank?



I am currently making plans for this engine and am quickly realizing that these multi cylinder engines are quite a chore to get right. 

  When it comes to things like head bolts, placements of pockets that are incrementally the same distance apart, or any other repetitive dimension, is it OK to only display said dimension on one of the features and then make a note saying that the dimension repeats?

  I am trying to get all the parts to print in scale on an 8" x 11.5" piece of paper and make them as understandable as possible. The block and head are my biggest concerns. Is there a shortcut for bolt hole patterns other than what I stated above?

  How do I communicate the starting point of an angled hole, like an intake runner intersecting the part at an angle? Do I show the center point of the hole on a 2-D plane, and then note to line up the bit to this mark after the angled setup is in place on the mill? 

Kel


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## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 When I was taught drafting many years ago one of the primary rules was include enough dimensions so the reader wouldn't have to 'guess' what a dimension might be. As the draftsman sometimes we skip over a dimension because we know it and so therefore think that the reader would know it. 
 When I started working as a patten designer for Ford I was taught datum dimensioning. This form of dimensioning establishes a 'datum point' at a finished surface or true hole (not drilled) and from there any dimension for that datum plane is just a matter of using an extension line with the necessary dimension. Attached is the drawing for my V-twin crankcase. On it you will see that the centerline of the crankshaft hole is the Datum -0-, both for x and y. From there the dimensions to subsequent features are just an extension line with the proper dimension at the end of it. 
 As for dimensioning an angular feature, the origin has to come from some tangible point, a surface or a hole. That way the reader can set his wiggler, edge finder or tool to that feature, move over the required dimension and create the hole.
 Believe me when I tell you this is not an easy task. As Steve has just stated about the drawings for his V-8, there are so many dimensions required and even though you as the draftsman think you have enough, ultimately you'll miss some. 
George 

View attachment V TWIN ENGINE SHT 1.pdf


----------



## stevehuckss396

When you get the drawings done, pass them off to someone who can draw them in a 3D cad program. If from your drawings someone can draw the part, they should have enough info to machine it.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks George and Steve. 

Ah yes, datum point. I am using that technique to show the location of the timing cover holes. I have heard it is not good to put dimensions on the part, or cross reference lines, but can I assume that this is unavoidable in certain circumstances? 

Is is OK to have multiple drawings of the same plane? Sometimes I can't fit everything on one drawing, Like the hole locations for screws. Would two pages for the same part be OK? I will more than likely be making detailed diagrams of certain features, and this will take up precious space on the page.

There is over 60 holes in the head, even without dimension lines it is very cluttered. Could I make a separate drawing for each set of holes. Say one drawing for the head bolts, then a separate drawing for the valve locations and so on. 

Then there is the spark plug holes, they are a compound angle, 30 degrees from the front and 7 degrees from the side. I am not even sure how to draw that accurately on a 2D plane. I spot drilled the hole locations on the bottom of the head, then set it up at angles on the mill, drilled the holes. Then flipped the head over and lined up a drill blank to that hole, then I milled it flat, and completed the threaded portion of the hole. 

 Also, I am not sure the terminology, but how about 'Stacking' dimensions. Lets say one feature is 1" away from the edge, then the next feature is .5" away from that. Or would I have to make the second dimension 1.5"? 

Steve, I will definitely need these to be proof read, at least the block and heads. Any volunteers? :big: It would mean a free set of plans, but a trustworthy subject is a must, I do plan on copyrighting them. 

Since I realize that there is a tremendous amount of work involved, I will be charging for them when finished. However since I am not a pro, what would a fair price be? I don't want to insult anybody, or short change myself.

Kel


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## kuhncw

Hi Kel,

I certainly enjoyed your recent videos of the little inline. It really wails.

It is my opinion that a part can be detailed on multiple sheets. I've worked with head, block, and crank drawings, for example that had many sheets. Some sheets had only section views that refered back to sections taken on other sheets of the drawing. My experience came from diesel engine design and production.

 As a model engine builder, I'd rather have several drawings of the same view of a part to reduce clutter and help eliminate mistakes. So far I've only made drawings for my own use and even then it takes quite a bit of thought to get the dimensions on the drawing so they can be easily read. I make multiple drawings of the same part all the time. It is so easy with CAD.

As to stringing dimensions one dimension from another, I prefer to see them all from the same datum.

Good luck with your drawings and don't be afraid to put a good price on them. Anyone who goes to all this work to share a good design should be rewarded.

Regards,

Chuck Kuhn


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## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Is is OK to have multiple drawings of the same plane? Sometimes I can't fit everything on one drawing, Like the hole locations for screws. Would two pages for the same part be OK? I will more than likely be making detailed diagrams of certain features, and this will take up precious space on the page.



If it helps, my head is 4 pages. The top and bottom of the head both took 2 of the same view to squeeze all the numbers into it.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for clarifying the 'multiple sheet' question. I have built engines from plans in the past, and even with a good set, there is a lot of 'Study' time involved to find out what certain dimensions are for, or where they are. Even going from one part to another to clarify why something is the way it is. So in my experience, it seems, there is a lot of responsibility for the reader to comprehend the drawings, and as a 'drawer' I have to assume a certain level of competence with the person reading them. Right? Certainly I will be including a page or more of notes on the construction of the engine, and the methods I used for setup, so this will help a bit.

Kel

I should note that this is not my first rodeo. I have a set of plans in the downloads section of a vertical steam engine named "Kelly's #1" So if any body wants to see my work, it is here.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item262


----------



## Lakc

I do my cad work upstairs, and machining downstairs. I usually completely forget all the dimensions in the ensuing trip, so I catch a lot of my own missing dimensions. :

As a general rule, parts to be made in the lathe are dimensioned in datum format, and non symmetrical or milled parts are usually dimensioned off the edges I use for edge finding. Its rather unavoidable to dimension parts based on your own machining preferences.


----------



## gbritnell

The reason dimensions shouldn't be stacked is because they could cause a tolerance stackup. If you had 4 successive dimensions and they all had +-.002 tolerance then by the time you got to the last dimension you could theoretically be .008 out of position. 
It's not that someone would machine it this way it's just that if you were making a part for someone and they gave you a drawing dimensioned this way you could realistically give them the finished part and it would be within the drawing tolerance. You have to pick and choose which dimensions you stack. 
gbritnell


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## kcmillin

Thanks George. I think I can get rid of the stacking if I make a few pages for the block. I am thinking about a FRONT-TOP-RIGHT for one page, and REAR-BOTTOM-LEFT views for another. Then a third page with detailed diagrams. Since this engine is so small I can fit all three views in scale on an 11.5 x 8 piece of paper. Some views will have to be exploded to show detail however. The problem with doing that is I have to manually correct the dimensions. I have not found a scale type option for this in my Solid Edge program.

Kel


----------



## Maryak

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Is is OK to have multiple drawings of the same plane? Sometimes I can't fit everything on one drawing, Like the hole locations for screws. Would two pages for the same part be OK? I will more than likely be making detailed diagrams of certain features, and this will take up precious space on the page.



IMHO yes, just call them Detail of......



> Also, I am not sure the terminology, but how about 'Stacking' dimensions. Lets say one feature is 1" away from the edge, then the next feature is .5" away from that. Or would I have to make the second dimension 1.5"?



They are called continuous dimensions and from above 1=1" 2=0.5" etc. If you made 2=1.5" then you are back to datum measuring.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob


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## kcmillin

It has been awhile since I posted in this thread. I am about 75% complete with the drawings and am continuing to work on them. I will be posting in this thread when the plans will be available.

After a month or so of computer work I got anxious to do some shop work. I seen a post from CaptainJerry on his mousepower dyno. I really liked the Idea and wanted to implement something for my TI4.

I decided to make it a separate device from the engine, then it could be used on multiple engines in the future, or to gauge changes in the engine, like cam duration and ignition timing and so forth.

Here is a video of the beginnings of my dyno. I picked up some force gauges of e-bay and this one reads in .01lb increments, with a total of 1lb. I have a prony brake on a 1 inch center, so the gauge reads directly in in/lbs from the driveshaft. 

Doing the math and whatnot with RPM and torque I come up with a max reading of .05HP @ 6800 RPM, and .5 in/lbs of torque @ around 5000 rpm. I need to do some more testing to get a larger sample size for an average.

Let me know if I am doing anything wrong, or could do it better. My readings seem small, but than again 1/20th of a horse aint bad for something I made in my basement :big:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd3tXuJu1Gs[/ame]

Kel


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## mu38&Bg#

Very cool. Power is all dependent on how well the engine can breath and at this cylinder size it's not easy to make a lot of power. I've been planning a dyno for a long time now, but am stuck with the control system.


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Graig!

Here is a chart I made from an average of a few runs. I think I still need to refine my method a little bit, but I am getting a pretty consistent curve.







Kel


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## metalmad

I love the sound of that engine 
Fantastic
Pete


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## kcmillin

Hey Guys,

It has been awhile since my last post again. I have been working on the plans most of the time, and I am now 99.5% complete. (Pending Review) Most of the engine has been modeled in 3D and checked for errors by Kevin "KustomKB" and Chuck "Kuhncw" , and I am confident I have a good set of plans. I am still searching through for typos, and any other un-satisfactory elements.

There is a total of 32 pages with 30 pages of detailed drawings with machining notes on a few of the pages. I have also included a write-up on making a camshaft the easy way. Once the blank is made, the lobes can be formed in about 20 minutes on the mill, with a rotary table.

The plans include drawings for the entire engine, water pump, radiator, fan and carburetor, with a list of references for materials, and notes on starting the engine. There are detailed views of some of the assemblies like the carb, distributor, and water pump. 

I am confident the engine can be made on small machines like the X2 and Mini Lathe. I am not sure the capacities of the Sherline machines. The biggest limiting factor is the camshaft tunnel, which is a 3/8" hole, 3 1/2" Deep. This could probably be done on a lathe with a clever setup. The largest part is the block which can be made from a 1 3/4" square bar of aluminum 3 1/2" long. 


The plans will be for sale in .pdf format for $40 US, and a hard copy will cost $55. I will accept PayPal as preferred payment method, as it is the easiest, but other arrangements can be made. The file, or hard copy will be sent once payment is received.

Send me a PM if you are interested. 

Kel


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## dalem9

HI Kel In the racing world at 5252 RPM torque and hp are equal. Just though this may be of interest to you. Dale


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Dale. That is indeed the formula I used. 

Here is a re-post of my last post. It got buried in the bottom of the last page. 

___________________________________________________________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been working on the plans most of the time, and I am now 99.5% complete. (Pending Review) Most of the engine has been modeled in 3D and checked for errors by Kevin "KustomKB" and Chuck "Kuhncw" , and I am confident I have a good set of plans. I am still searching through for typos, and any other un-satisfactory elements.

There is a total of 32 pages with 30 pages of detailed drawings with machining notes on a few of the pages. I have also included a write-up on making a camshaft the easy way. Once the blank is made, the lobes can be formed in about 20 minutes on the mill, with a rotary table.

The plans include drawings for the entire engine, water pump, radiator, fan and carburetor, with a list of references for materials, and notes on starting the engine. There are detailed views of some of the assemblies like the carb, distributor, and water pump. 

I am confident the engine can be made on small machines like the X2 and Mini Lathe. I am not sure the capacities of the Sherline machines. The biggest limiting factor is the camshaft tunnel, which is a 3/8" hole, 3 1/2" Deep. This could probably be done on a lathe with a clever setup. The largest part is the block which can be made from a 1 3/4" square bar of aluminum 3 1/2" long. 


The plans will be for sale in .pdf format for $40 US, and a hard copy will cost $55. I will accept PayPal as preferred payment method, as it is the easiest, but other arrangements can be made. The file, or hard copy will be sent once payment is received.

Send me a PM if you are interested. 

Plans can also be purchased on E-bay, and directly off my website at www.BurleighMachine.com


Kel


----------



## kustomkb

I must say that Kelly has put together a beautiful set of drawings, the notes are very clear and easy to follow.

It has been a pleasure working from them. :bow:

I can't wait to hear my own engine running.


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## dalem9

Kel Have you found someone to go over your plans yet I just had back surgery two weeks ago so I have a lot of time on my hands . Thanks Dale


----------



## kustomkb

Here is a video and a couple of pictures of some of the modeling I have done from Kelly's plans;

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goz2RafdxrI[/ame]  Please excuse the spinning distributor  











It has been a lot of fun and I can't wait to get started!


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## kuhncw

I strongly second what KustomKB said. Kelly's plans are a fine piece of work. 
He's put in a lot of effort to make the drawings clear and easily understood. I recommend these drawings to anyone looking for a nice barstock, multicylinder engine project.

Kelly, thanks for the chance to help just a bit on your project. I enjoyed it a lot.

Regards,

Chuck Kuhn


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks for the kind words Kevin and Chuck! And thanks for uploading the 3D views Kevin, they look great! 

Kel


----------



## kcmillin

I have been playing with new piston designs, mainly getting rid of the o-ring, and trying out rings or lapped pistons. My first attempt at rings was going good until I tried to start it, and there was virtually no compression. 

I took the engine apart and checked the bores. I found them to be out of round by a few thou. So I decide to bore the engine out from .375" to .392". This increased the displacement of the entire engine from 3.62cc to 3.92cc. 

I then decided to make lapped pistons and bores. As I did not have a lap, I decided to stick with the reamed hole, and using a 3/8" ball hone, got a smooth crosshatch pattern. I then made cast iron pistons to fit the bores with only .0002" of clearance. 

This time I had success. The engine is much quicker to respond, and it starts much more easily. 

So I had to hook it up to the dyno to see if there was any difference.

Before I was getting between .45 in lbs and .6 in lbs of torque and would die out quickly after putting max load on the engine. 

After the piston mods I am now getting well into .8in lb - .9 in lb territory, and it will hold it at 6000 rpm for extended periods of time!!! This nearly doubled the torque!!!!!! I am having way to much fun now!

All this, and there is still a connecting rod bearing that had disintegrated resulting in quite a knock. I have been running it hard trying to throw parts so I can improve them, but it seems to be like my Toyota Corolla, it just wont quit. I even tried 20% nitro R/C fuel, and it still wont die!!

This is the first round of performance improvements. I would like to change the firing order so the intake runners are alternating between each power stroke. 
This will require a new crankshaft to be made with alternating throws, and of course a new cam.

Til next time,

Kel


----------



## GailInNM

Kel,
The biggest improvement on my "Tiny" came when I went to lapped cast iron cylinder and piston. Ran cooler and started much easier. 
Gail in NM


----------



## Lakc

Well, you could make two intake manifolds that Y'd into two carburators. :


----------



## awJCKDup

Did you notice any difference running the 20% nitro fuel?
John


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Gail, your post on the Tiny was a great help in getting this engine running at where it is today.

Jeff, I had thought about that, but I think two carbs is twice as much trouble, but it would be cool though.

John, the engine needed a full turn or more on the needle to get it running, but once it ran, it screamed. It was much louder and the revving response was increased , but the max RPM was about the same, in fact with the new setup I can't quite get it to rev to 9000 anymore, but the loose connecting rod might be limiting it. I have not yet dyno'd it with nitro yet to get any numbers though.

I did run the engine again on the dyno to get some data. I had to reset the height of the gauge to get the prony brake level, and my numbers are actually a more modest .75 - .8 in/lbs max @ 4500 rpm but that is only momentary before killing but it can hold at .55 in/lbs @ 6200 rpm for extended periods of time. All the while that bearing-less connecting rod just won't give up! I was hoping the load would break it, but I am left disappointed ;D ;D:big:

Kel


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## kcmillin

Well I spent the last day collecting data on the Dyno. With adjustments to the ignition timing The TI4 is now holding the torque more effectively.

This is an average of a few runs, error on the high side. 
I am absolutely confident that the engine has more torque with the lapped pistons. The data is considerably larger than before and the only thing that changed was the pistons. I did bore it out .015" over also, but I don't think that is enough to be the deciding factor in the increase of torque.

Here is the chart with the before and after data. Although this is a bit of a hairy test, it was at least the same from run to run, yielding different results.







Cant wait to do more mods now!!!

Kel


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## kcmillin

I have been running the engine on the Dyno through many tanks. 

 Through small adjustments of valve lash, timing, and fuel mixture the TI4 is running stronger than ever.

I am now seeing torque numbers in the .9 in/lb range and holding there at around 5500 - 6000 RPM. I am incredibly surprised at the strength and performance of this engine. I have been running it as hard as I can under load for extended periods of time and the thing just keeps going better than ever!

Math:
 6000 RPM x .9 in/lb  
        63025 = (In/lb Factor for HP) (5252 if using ft/lbs)

 = .085hp. 

Right?

That is nearly double from the original engine!


What I am most excited about is there is plenty of room for improvement. Currently the valves in the head are hammered into their seats and beyond flush. So an open valve is only about half open and flush with the head surface. With a new head I could see even higher torque numbers. I might have to break out the 2lb gauge!! 

Here is a video of the last dyno run. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeFsTuqT-14[/ame]


This is WAAAAAY to much Fun!!

Kel


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## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Math:
> 6000 RPM x .9 in/lb
> 63025 = (In/lb Factor for HP) (5252 if using ft/lbs)
> 
> = .085hp.
> 
> Right?



I took today and Monday off as vacation days, I refuse to do math on my vacation. ;D

Your quick double check, is whatever formula you use, your HP and torque (in foot lbs) should be equal at 5250 rpm.



> What I am most excited about is there is plenty of room for improvement. Currently the valves in the head are hammered into their seats and beyond flush. So an open valve is only about half open and flush with the head surface. With a new head I could see even higher torque numbers. I might have to break out the 2lb gauge!!



That is something I was afraid of with aluminum seats. 
Halfway down on this page: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=11215.30
You can see where I used tool steel inserts for the valves. They seem to have worked good so far. If all goes well I will have my dyno up sometime this weekend.


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## kcmillin

I guess I should refine my methods a little bit. 

?So when I chart the torque an HP they should intersect at 5252 no matter what?

and If they don't?

Its only numbers, how hard can this be ;D

What can I do to the prony brake to make it better?

The valve seats are actually brass, but the problem is with the valves. 
When I made the valves they got very thin on the seat end, and after repeated use the valves themselves have been hammered into a smaller diameter. I just have not replaced them since they are still sealing good. But it is far from ideal to say the least.

Kel


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## kcmillin

Ahhhh, I think I figured it out. 

My chart is in in/lbs. I did some conversions and found that the ft/lbs are indeed equal to the horsepower at 5252. 

I will have to re-conjigger the graph into ft/lbs. 


Kel


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## kcmillin

Here is the new revised graph.

This looks much more like the real deal.







Kel


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## Lakc

Looks much more normal, or at least what I am accustomed too. :bow:


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## kcmillin

Thanks Jeff, 

What type of Dyno are you planning on using this weekend?

Kel


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## Lakc

Well it wont be anything if I cant find a place to buy E85.
When you have a propeller mounted to your engine, the diameter, pitch, and rpm all corelate to a horsepower. Simpler, not as detailed, you have to have an assortment of different props to obtain a wide range of readings, but its functional enough until I get around to building a water brake.


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## kcmillin

Lakc  said:
			
		

> Well it wont be anything if I cant find a place to buy E85.
> When you have a propeller mounted to your engine, the diameter, pitch, and rpm all corelate to a horsepower. Simpler, not as detailed, you have to have an assortment of different props to obtain a wide range of readings, but its functional enough until I get around to building a water brake.



Cool, a water brake dyno. How are you going to meter the water inflow and outflow?



Well, I did it Now, I killed the little guy, but I am totally stoked at the same time. 

During yet another high load run on the dyno, the engine started to knock louder than usual, I knew it had to be that sloppy connecting rod. 

So I locked the throttle wide open, put on a face sheild and stood back. I had it pulling a load of .8 in/lbs, when *BAM* the engine stopped dead. I could no longer turn the engine over, something had broken.

I took the engine apart and found this.




Does it get any better than this ;D

You can see that one of the bolts bent, and the other one snapped of flush with the cap bending it and the rod in the process. The side of the rod is worn down considerably, and half the bronze bearing was no where to be found.

I inspected the rest of the connecting rod bushings and they are all pretty much gone, but no major failure. The crankshaft will need to be replaced, as the journals are shot, along with a new set of connecting rods. 

Too much Fun ;D

Kel


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## kustomkb

Cool ;D  ;D

"Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."


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## gbritnell

Hi Kel,
 I know you're having fun but while you're doing the rebuild I would consider adding an oil pump. It could be and external dry sump type which could be driven off the front of the crank. The reason I'm saying this is because loading and engine as hard as you have been doing with a splash oil system is asking for trouble. You could put a manifold along the outside of the block at the main bearing level and feed into the sides. From there you could drill the crank and feed oil to the rods.
 My little 4 cylinder engine is a screamer like yours and even without loading it the rods just take a beating. About every 4 hours of running I have to check and adjust the caps to eliminate the clearance. The mains on the other hand have held up quite well but then again they don't get the beating that the rods do.
 Have fun,
George


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## kcmillin

Thanks for the tip George!

I do plan on doing more hard testing with it to see how much power I can get from it, and an oil pump would defiantly help a lot, especially if I increase the bore from .391- .5 ;D

Kel


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## Lakc

Oooh, detrius. 8)




			
				kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Cool, a water brake dyno. How are you going to meter the water inflow and outflow?



SIC had plans for one, its what actually sold me on this hobby. When I get around to building, it will probably be updated with solenoids and all microprocessor controlled.


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## kcmillin

KustomKB  said:
			
		

> "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."



That was the Idea ;D

I already started designing the "High Performance Upgrades" for it, I have a lot of room in the $6 million budget  jc vvv

I am now seriously thinking into the oil issue. With an oil pump, how do I meter the oil to be certain that oil is reaching all the connecting rods? My initial sketches have the passages connecting two crank journals to one main journal.

Also, I am contemplating a "Dual Purpose" water pump/oil pump. Same design as now, just doubled up with two separate chambers. One for oil, and one for water. 

My thought is, with the oil pump above the level of the oil, will that cause any issues? 

Any Ideas for a "Tiny" Oil Filter? The last few runs yielded some metal flake paint  bad oil.

Kel


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## kcmillin

So I am in the beginning stages of the High Output TI4 Design. 

My current firing order is 1-2-4-3, and I want to get 1-3-2-4.

My thought is that the way it is now with the intake manifold having two runners connected to two pairs of cylinders, the characteristics of the flowing gas is not the same from one cylinder to another, and could be affecting fuel mixture, or inflow into the cylinder.

with the conventional crank design (Shown on top in picture) I cant get away from a firing order of either 1-3-4-2 or 1-2-4-3. The head design has the intake runners from 1&2 and 3&4 intersecting each other in the head, and I like the intake manifold as is.

With this design the intake gasses entering the intake manifold on one side gets sucked into one cylinder immediately followed by its married cylinder. So the gasses have more time to accelerate (in the shared runner) to the second cylinder than the first in the firing order.

So in order to get the firing order to 1-3-2-4 I need to make an unconventional crank design. With 1 & 2 on the same plane, and 3 & 4 180 degrees off from 1 & 2. 

Like this.






The top is the conventional design, and currently what I have. 
The bottom is my proposed design.
The purple lines are oil passages.

I have not found any pictures of any crank like the one I have designed in the bottom. I think there might be a reason for this. your thoughts?
Am I nit picking here, or do I have a legitimate worry with the intake flow pattern? 

I already know the engine will run great, but now I want it to *RACE!!*

I suppose I need to re-design the head anyway, perhaps I should make 4 separate intake runners in the head. 

I have more questions for a later date.

Kel


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## GailInNM

Kel,
The reason that the conventional crankshaft that you have drawn is used it because there are two rocking couples that tend to cancel each other out. The first couple is between pistons 1 and 2, and the second between 3 and 4. Looking at only a 2 dimensional plane as you have drawn, say the first couple tries to rotate the crankshaft in the length wise direction clockwise at the main journal between 1 and 2 then the second couple tries to rotate the crankshaft counter-clockwise around the journal between 3 and 4. 

In your proposed layout there is only a single rocking couple with pistons 1 and 2 forming one half and 3 and 4 forming the second half. This will produce a rocking motion centered on the center main journal. 

Gail in NM


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## Lakc

I think your absolutely correct in thinking there is a good reason they dont do that, although the reason escapes me at the moment. 

And as I typed that I see Gail piped in with a very valid concern. 

You want to make horsepower, and while every part of a design provides ample ways to loose horsepower, the crankshaft is pretty straightforward. Wider journals and larger diameter throws cause more friction, but those areas are traditionally saved for the last fractions of HP gain, not the first. The rocking couples might not be a game ender at our scale, but there are far easier changes to make first.

Start with the simple basic fact, air+fuel=power. More air and more fuel, in correct proportions, makes more power. 

Generally, that means bigger intake valves, smoother air transition into the cylinder, good combustion chamber shape. The cylinder heads are what seperates the men from the boys in the racing world.

Intake manifolds are important too. Runner length and design all have a big effect. Look up the Mopar "long rams" for some interesting pictures. Long runners to a central mixing area just might fix your current problems.

Just some food for thought.


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## kcmillin

Thanks for the info Guys. Every bit helps.

I am now set on the original crankshaft design, stick with what has been proven is a good starting point.

The largest factor in the High Output design is the pistons. Increasing the bore from .375 to .5" will nearly double the displacement from 3.62cc to 6.42cc. As the old saying goes *"There is no Replacement for Displacement" *

This will allow me to increase the size of the valves from .156" to .219". My current sketchings have the intake valve .219" and the exhaust valve is .203". 

So, I am pretty set on having lapped pistons, my numbers on the dyno have convinced me of their benefit.

The problem with cast Iron lapped pistons is their weight. The original aluminum pistons were 4 times lighter than their cast iron counterparts, and increasing the size of the pistons will undoubtedly add a whole lot of reciprocating weight, putting even more strain on the already troublesome con-rod journals and bushings.

So my plan is to put aluminum inserts into a cast iron sleeves. My problem with this is the thermal expansion of both metals is different, so what type of fit do I need to ensure the pistons don't come apart during high speed, high load runs? 

The thought of cast iron rings is indeed in my mind, but for now I wan't to stick to my comfort zone.

Kel


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## crankshafter

Hi Kel.
First I have to say thanks for the great plans I received. Have been studying all weekend. And I have started going through the scrap-containers( with good luck ;D) at work for aluminum for the cyl-block and oilpan.
Have some questions.
#1: Is there any reason not to make the oilpan in one piece.
#2: Considering the cyl.-boreYou have allready answered it. I'm planning on using some nice valveguides w/innerdia 7/16"
#3: I'm planning to use brass/bronze conn.rods.

Best Regards
CS.


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## kcmillin

Hello CS, 

Glad to hear you have already started to material selection process.

There is no reason not to make the oil pan in 2 pieces. I was limited by my material selection, but if you have a piece big enough, go for it.

Making bronze connecting rods is a good idea. That is part of my High Output design thus far. 

Kel


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## Lakc

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> So my plan is to put aluminum inserts into a cast iron sleeves. My problem with this is the thermal expansion of both metals is different, so what type of fit do I need to ensure the pistons don't come apart during high speed, high load runs?
> 
> The thought of cast iron rings is indeed in my mind, but for now I wan't to stick to my comfort zone.



Bimetallic pistons would seem to be much more of a leap then just cast iron rings. While 8k rpm is a lot on some bigger engines, your pistons might be ok at that speed. Just try and keep the weight down by thinning out where possible.


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## crankshafter

Hi Kel.
Thanks for replying.
I am a traveling repair/service mechanic and I'm visitting all of the shipyards around here.
And every place there are some nice guys supplying me with all kind of metall offcuts for free ;D, or a sixpack now and then :big:

Regards.
CS


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## mu38&Bg#

With the cast iron sleeved aluminum pistons I think expansion is going to be a problem. A piston with an aluminum core will have to be loose in a steel bore when cold to avoid seizure when hot. The overall expansion of the piston will probably only be a little less than the aluminum, depending on how thick the sleeve is. You could also see distortion of the piston.

At our scale, runner lengths have very little impact on anything, but maybe Kel's main concern about how cylinders are fed. it's one reason Harley's have that rough idle. In the quest for power I'd be looking at airflow like Lakc mentioned. Combustion chamber shape won't be important at the displacement, compression ratios, and RPM you're talking about. If you really want to develop this design I'd consider building a single cylinder to do testing with. You'll find as breathing improves power will increase beyond the RPM you're running now. HP in little engines is found at high RPM. Even at 1.5cc per cylinder I'd expect HP to peak nearer to 10-12kRPM, or even closer to 20k if it could breath.

BTW, Kel, your TI4 has been giving me the itch to scale either BMW 4 or 6 cylinder and build one.

Greg


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## kustomkb

It's good to hear you are tearing the performance envelope wide open ;D


I thought I'd share a little assembly video I was able to produce using Kelly's very nice plan package;

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6wMcQcsRhI&edit=ev&feature=uenh[/ame]


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## kcmillin

That is a pretty cool video Kevin. Thank you for posting it. 

I am still working on the new upgrades. I am thinking about moving the combustion chamber from the top of the block to inside the head. This will allow more angle on the spark plug leaving more room for bigger valves and larger runners. My current runners are .093" holes, I would like to increase these to .141 - .156 or so. 

My current compression ratio is 6:1, If I create a quasi-heart shaped combustion chamber I can get it up to 6.7:1. I am not to sure how high we can get with these small engines though. but at 6.7:1 it is still a bit modest. 

My main concern now is valve size. I want the largest valves I can fit. The old valves were .156" and are actually more like .135" after the hammering they took on the last few runs. The new design I can fit both valves at .219", but I was also thinking about an asymmetrical design with a larger intake valve. This would create some goofy things with valve placement though. 

Kel

Kel


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## agmachado

KustomKB, I like a lot this video type !

Kel,

My intention is purchase this plans by your web site... I pay with PayPal method and receive the plans in PDF format. That's possible ? 

Best Regards,

Alexandre


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## kcmillin

Alexandre Machado  said:
			
		

> KustomKB, I like a lot this video type !
> 
> Kel,
> 
> My intention is purchase this plans by your web site... I pay with PayPal method and receive the plans in PDF format. That's possible ?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Alexandre



Yep, that's exactly how it's done. I can usually deliver it to your e-mail within a few hours.

Kel


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## Lakc

Muhahahahahaaaa

Yes Igor, we have created yet another horsepower monster ;D


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## agmachado

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Yep, that's exactly how it done. I can usually deliver it to your e-mail within a few hours.
> 
> Kel



Thank you Kel!

I will arrange and talk to you soon!

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## kcmillin

I have here a couple designs for the combustion chamber.

Previously the combustion chamber was in the top of the cylinder in the block, and the head was flat.

This design the combustion chamber is milled straight into the head .1", with flat square sides all around. This allows the spark plug to be placed at even more of an angle, making more room for valves.

Your thoughts on these designs, and perhaps a vote?

The bore is .5, and the valves are .219" on all but the C intake, which is .250. 

A, B, or C. 







Kel


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## kcmillin

It Lives!!!..............again.

The crank throw journals on the crankshaft were to far gone to fix, but I have managed to fix one of the crankshafts I screwed up before by making the main journals smaller to get them to run true. Well, I could only fix the outer two bearings, I will be leaving the three center main bearing out. Since it was basically like this before, I am not worried.

I have also made a new set of connecting rods as per my drawings, but I added an oil spout out the bottom of the rod journal. This also acts as a stay for the split bushings. The spout actually intersects the bottom bushing half locking it in place and preventing it from spinning. Which is the part of the reason the original bushings were getting destroyed. 

I will be adding this spout to the plans and sending them out to the owners in the next few days. There is also a couple things that need fixing which will also be in the update.


I put the engine on the stand without the radiator and ran it for a couple minutes. All seemed good. I will be tearing the bottom end down and cleaning it all up before putting it back together on the stand. Then I will post a new video of the engine running with the new crank and connecting rods.

Now that I have it running again, I can put it aside, (hopefully) and go full bore (Pun intended) into the "High Output TI4". 

Kel


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## mu38&Bg#

Combustion chamber C would probably make the most power. It really depends on how crowded the valves are. Because they are so close to the wall they are mainly flowing in the areas open to the cylinder. Between A and B, A would make more power because the valves are less shrouded.

Greg


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## Lakc

Glad to hear you have her back in shape!

As to CC design, big unshrouded valves like Greg mentions will flow the most air, and more air with more fuel = more power.  

Avoid right angles to airflow and choked intakes, but keep your intake passages skinny enough to keep airflow speed as high as practical, that helps keep the fuel from dropping out. View the head passage for the intake and intake runner as another venturi between the carb output and intake valve.

Try and avoid the square sides of the combustion chamber. You want every fuel molecule mingling with air molecules, and fuel trapped in the corners probably wont burn since they are not surrounded with enough air. Thats one benefit of the hemispherical combustion chamber.


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## kcmillin

Thanks for the tips guys.

I have made another design, based on C. 

I can round out the combustion chamber quite a bit. Though I might need to dome the pistons to get the compression ratio I am after, between 6.5 and 7 to 1

I currently have room for intake runners up to .203" diameter, and the intake valve is .250" or one half the bore size. The exhaust valve is .219" or about 20% smaller than the intake valve.

I have read that you want your intake runners volume to be about 40% of the pistons displacement. Does this seem right?

Kel


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## Lakc

You can always increase the stroke to bump up compression, that gives you plenty of open room for the valves to breath as well. 

That intake runner volume ratio sounds like a good compromise. Compare that with the long rams on this page:
http://maxwedge.com/orangemonster/orangemonster.php


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## kustomkb

I am looking forward to see your next version come to life.

I've been playing with the animator a little more. Here is another video;


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRrX-_YvXeI&feature=player_profilepage[/ame]


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## kcmillin

Wow Kevin, that is a pretty cool vid! I love the fly through camera work.

I have nearly settled on a design, I will indeed be increasing the stroke from .5" to .575" or .6". I will need to make solid bronze connecting rods in order to make them smaller so they don't interfere with the block and oil pan. 

I will be doing a test combustion chamber. My plan is to smooth out the sharp corners with a rotary tool by hand. I am thinking about making a jig of sorts to help me get them equal. Once I have it made I can find out my compression ratio top a finer degree. My target is 7:1. 

Also, one big difference is there will be 4 separate intake runners in the head instead of two into one. This will make things more predictable for the flow of air.

Kel


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## kustomkb

Thanks Kel. I've learned a lot about the software, modelling from your drawings.

Its been fun too! Now if I could design an engine...


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## mdasseville

Very nice engine


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## Stieglitz

Hi kcmillin,
               Great work,will look forward to the completed engine and plans.
Thanks and Cheers.


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## djalal

hello sir can you tell me the size  of the piston !! because i think very small 

djalal.


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## crankshafter

Stieglitz. You can get plans for the Tiny 4 cyl. here: www.burleighmachine.com

djalal: Cyl.dia is 3/8"

Have fun.

CS.


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## Stieglitz

Hi crankshafter,
                     Thanks for the link will gladly send for the plans.
Cheers.


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## BillH

Just bought the plans, putting it into Fusion. These are some of the best plans I've ever seen. Most dimensions are referenced from a common point, no errors, etc.


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