# Newbie needs advice about a lathe



## Old Guy (Aug 30, 2022)

The lathe in question is my recently purchased second hand  but very young Chester DB super 10 long bed which I have done very little work on other to try to get a handle on it's use by trying to do a few passes on a length of round bar that I happened to have, the outcome of which was pretty poor in it's finish this could be due to the type of metal the bar was made of but this doesn't matter at the moment as i do intend to purchase some better steel for any future attempts.
There are a couple of things that have got me concerned about the lathe

1) It has variable speed control by a knob on the head stock but when the knob is fully off the chuck still rotates at about 40 RPM as soon as the power is turned on so the only way to stop it is to turn the power off, Would this be normal on these types of lathe

2) When running it does seem quite noisy, not sure if this is normal

3) When you turn the chuck by hand there does seem to be the feel of a slight rumble from the head bearings as if maybe the shaft might be over tightened on the bearings

I have put a DTI on the chuck and there seems to be little or no run out on it so you would think the bearings should be in good order any advice would be much appreciated from our much more experienced members


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## RM-MN (Aug 30, 2022)

1. My Harbor Freight mini lathe wants to keep turning when I turn the knob all the way down.  I think that is because the potentiometer does not have infinite resistance.  The power switch comes closer to infinite.

2. The gears that allow changes in the speed of the lead screw are not perfect on my lathe and make noise.  Try putting the leadscrew in neutral and see if the noise goes away.

3. The "rumble" you feel may be related to the gears mentioned in item 2.


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## Old Guy (Aug 30, 2022)

RM-MN said:


> 1. My Harbor Freight mini lathe wants to keep turning when I turn the knob all the way down.  I think that is because the potentiometer does not have infinite resistance.  The power switch comes closer to infinite.
> 
> 2. The gears that allow changes in the speed of the lead screw are not perfect on my lathe and make noise.  Try putting the leadscrew in neutral and see if the noise goes away.
> 
> 3. The "rumble" you feel may be related to the gears mentioned in item 2.


Thanks RM-MN for that speedy reply I'm glad to hear the slow running is probably normal for these machines I will make sure that the lead screw gears are in neutral next time I give it a whirl and see if it makes a difference but I fear that it is in neutral because neither of the drives are turning.
The lathe is very similar to the one used by Blondie hacks but where hers has two lead screw knobs this one has three and two drive shafts where I believe hers has one combined shaft I could well be wrong 
I think I might post a short video of the lathe running and see what people think and thanks again


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## trlvn (Aug 30, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Thanks RM-MN for that speedy reply I'm glad to hear the slow running is probably normal for these machines I will make sure that the lead screw gears are in neutral next time I give it a whirl and see if it makes a difference but I fear that it is in neutral because neither of the drives are turning.
> The lathe is very similar to the one used by Blondie hacks but where hers has two lead screw knobs this one has three and two drive shafts where I believe hers has one combined shaft I could well be wrong
> I think I might post a short video of the lathe running and see what people think and thanks again


Blondihacks uses a Precision Matthews PM1022.  It is almost identical to my Busybee CX706 (Canada).  Grizzly in the US also sells virtually the same machine by another name.  As you say, yours is similar but has separate feed v. threading drive rods.  I like yours!  

You may be able to find Youtube videos that help you gauge whether yours is truly noisy or not.  I'm guessing that you are just hearing the gear train noise.  Gears need to be set with a little bit of clearance--they can be extra noisy if set too tight.

Switching between High/Med/Low feed speeds might help you isolate whether the noise is coming from the gears, as well.

Re surface finish, tell us more details about cuts you were trying.  Carbide insert, brazed carbide or HSS tool?  Workpiece diameter?  RPM and feed settings?  Pictures of the tool and result?

Craig


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## Old Guy (Aug 30, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Blondihacks uses a Precision Matthews PM1022.  It is almost identical to my Busybee CX706 (Canada).  Grizzly in the US also sells virtually the same machine by another name.  As you say, yours is similar but has separate feed v. threading drive rods.  I like yours!
> 
> You may be able to find Youtube videos that help you gauge whether yours is truly noisy or not.  I'm guessing that you are just hearing the gear train noise.  Gears need to be set with a little bit of clearance--they can be extra noisy if set too tight.
> 
> ...


Hello Craig Thanks for your input that is a great idea about the you tube vids to asses the noise levels and I will try the switching as well
I first tried a carbide insert tool that was already fitted in the holder and with different depths of cut but I can't say what the actual depths were as I'm not used to the measurements on the hand wheel yet the lathe didn't have any trouble driving the piece and tried hand turning and machine feed but the results were similar,I believe the carbide prefer a heavy cut for the best finish which is what I had tried to achieve.
I bought a set of HSS tools to try and picked one to try which might well have been the wrong one but I was only experimenting.I did all this between centres
I will take some pics and post them for people to asses
Thanks again


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## Old Guy (Sep 7, 2022)

_Well I took a few pictures and a short video but being the pc numpty I am I can't work out how to post them any advise gratefully received _


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## trlvn (Sep 8, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> _Well I took a few pictures and a short video but being the pc numpty I am I can't work out how to post them any advise gratefully received _


As a start, could you tell us what device you used to take the pictures and record the video?  Have you transferred these files to a personal computer (what operating system).  Have you tried using the "Attach files" and/or "Upload Video" buttons to get the files onto this web site?  Is so, was there a message indicating a failure?  What, exactly, did it say?

Craig


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## Old Guy (Sep 10, 2022)

_Hi Craig
Yes I recorded it on my iPhone  and put it on my mac so it is on the same computer I use to do these posts.
so I click the upload video tab and get the window up with launch menu in the top box but I can't find how to get to my photo library, do I have to go to my pictures first and press share before I do the upload tab its all very confusing to me, and now I seem to have changed the font somehow even though I haven't touched anything_


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## trlvn (Sep 10, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> _Hi Craig
> Yes I recorded it on my iPhone  and put it on my mac so it is on the same computer I use to do these posts.
> so I click the upload video tab and get the window up with launch menu in the top box but I can't find how to get to my photo library, do I have to go to my pictures first and press share before I do the upload tab its all very confusing to me, and now I seem to have changed the font somehow even though I haven't touched anything_



Let's start with the photos.  From your description, it seems you are using the Photos application from Apple.  You were on the right track by opening the picture you want to upload here and then selecting the "Export 1 Photo..." command from Export submenu on the File menu.  That should bring up a dialog box much like this:







There are lots of valid ways to do things, but I like to change the "File Name" option to "Sequential" and then fill in something in the "Sequential Prefix" field.  In this case, I've entered 'Test export' but you can put in something meaningful to you.  After doing that, then click the blue "Export" button.  That will bring up the following standard file picker dialog, like this:





This let's you choose where to put the file that you are exporting.  A nice simple choice is the one I've circled in red, the "Desktop".  First click that entry (Desktop) and then click the blue Export button.  A notification message should appear momentarily in the upper right of your screen confirming that the file has been exported.

Now you need to switch the browser window for this website and use "Attach files" to upload your photo to a new message or reply, like follows:






In this dialog, you again click "Desktop" since that's where you put the file to be uploaded.  In the above, you can see that I have clicked on the file "Test export - 1" since that is the file name I gave to the photo.

Hope this helps.  There could be minor differences in appearance if we're not running the exact same version of MacOS (which is pretty likely).

Craig


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## Old Guy (Sep 10, 2022)

Hi Craig
Thanks for that brilliant description I will work my way through it tomorrow when I have a clearer head and with a bit of luck you might get to see how not to machine a piece of bar on a lathe and how noisy you think it is
Thanks again John


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## RM-MN (Sep 10, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> _Hi Craig
> Yes I recorded it on my iPhone  and put it on my mac so it is on the same computer I use to do these posts.
> so I click the upload video tab and get the window up with launch menu in the top box but I can't find how to get to my photo library, do I have to go to my pictures first and press share before I do the upload tab its all very confusing to me, and now I seem to have changed the font somehow even though I haven't touched anything_



The code to make your text italicized is CTRL I, which probably happened when you attempted to type the capital I and accidentally bumped the CTRL key when you hit the shift key as the CTRL key is directly below the shift key.


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## william_b_noble (Sep 11, 2022)

let's go back to the original question of why the spindle turns at a low RPM - this is important - there is a *huge* difference between "off" and "zero RPM" to a controller.  Off means it is unpowered.  Zero RPM means that the motor is fully energized and will resist (to the best of its ability) any attempt to turn it.  All _real lathes_ have a drum switch or a push button for start/stop.  when you want the lathe to stop, you press "stop", when you want it to go, you press "start".  Generally you set the RPM for the SFM (surface feet per minute) you want based on the material and the tooling and you start and stop the lathe as required.

The low RPM with the knob at minimum speed is a safety feature so you don't burn out the motor.


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## Old Guy (Sep 12, 2022)

wwwwwwww


RM-MN said:


> The code to make your text italicized is CTRL I, which probably happened when you attempted to type the capital I and accidentally bumped the CTRL key when you hit the shift key as the CTRL key is directly below the shift key.


Thanks I daren't even start to tell you what happened when I tried to post the pics again I don't seem to get the windows shown by Craig but it was a REAL mess up I had to call in my computer expert to try to sort it out ie the Missus she managed to get the screen back again but even she couldn't upload the pics to the forum


trlvn said:


> Let's start with the photos.  From your description, it seems you are using the Photos application from Apple.  You were on the right track by opening the picture you want to upload here and then selecting the "Export 1 Photo..." command from Export submenu on the File menu.  That should bring up a dialog box much like this:
> 
> View attachment 139925
> 
> ...


Sorry Craig I don't seem to get any of those windows on my mac when my wife tried the closest was that a pic seemed to be downloading but then it came up error file too big so Im back to square one


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## Old Guy (Sep 12, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> let's go back to the original question of why the spindle turns at a low RPM - this is important - there is a *huge* difference between "off" and "zero RPM" to a controller.  Off means it is unpowered.  Zero RPM means that the motor is fully energized and will resist (to the best of its ability) any attempt to turn it.  All _real lathes_ have a drum switch or a push button for start/stop.  when you want the lathe to stop, you press "stop", when you want it to go, you press "start".  Generally you set the RPM for the SFM (surface feet per minute) you want based on the material and the tooling and you start and stop the lathe as required.
> 
> The low RPM with the knob at minimum speed is a safety feature so you don't burn out the motor.


Thanks for that info I had assumed wrongly of course that the speed knob controlled the power to the motor but obviously not, the problem is that every time you stop it you then have to faff with the covered locked ON OFF switch to get it going again and if you use the forward stop reverse switch the same thing happens there seems to be no simple start stop with it at all


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## djc (Sep 12, 2022)

There is a manual for the machine available at: Our Manual Library - Chester Hobby Store if you have not already found it. It contains a wiring diagram which explains the control logic.

If you really do want to use the speed control for switching it on and off, change the potentiometer for a 5 wire, switched version of the same resistance and characteristic (linear/log) as the existing one. You will need to wire the switched part in series with the other interlocks on the machine (chuck guard, E-stop, etc.) as they will be a low voltage, low current control circuit.


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## Old Guy (Sep 12, 2022)

Thanks for that djc I do have the manual that came with the machine but electronics are not my forte so I will probably be leaving that well alone and sticking to the on off switch as it is


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## trlvn (Sep 12, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Thanks I daren't even start to tell you what happened when I tried to post the pics again I don't seem to get the windows shown by Craig but it was a REAL mess up I had to call in my computer expert to try to sort it out ie the Missus she managed to get the screen back again but even she couldn't upload the pics to the forum
> 
> Sorry Craig I don't seem to get any of those windows on my mac when my wife tried the closest was that a pic seemed to be downloading but then it came up error file too big so Im back to square one



If the homemodelenginemachinist.com website gave you the "file too big" error message, you were actually VERY close to the finish line!  And we can fix it!  When you export the photo from the Photos application, we have to do an extra step or two.  

When you have brought up the photo that you wish to export and selected the "Export 1 Photo..." command from Export submenu on the File menu, you should see the following dialog (same as before):





This time, however, click the little control circled in the screenshot above.  The dialog will expand to offer some more options as shown in the following screenshot.  (Clicking the control again will toggle the dialog between hiding and showing the additional options.  This technique is commonly used in many Mac applications.)





Notice above that we now have a "Size" option for the file we're trying to export.  Choose either "Medium" or "Large".  As before, select "File Name: Sequential" and type something meaningful to you in the "Sequential Prefix" field.  Then continue on as before clicking the blue Export button and whatnot.

The following photo was exported with the "Medium" size option:






Craig


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## trlvn (Sep 12, 2022)

To others, what is the file size limit for this forum?  I'm able to upload a 4.4 MB (see following).  OldGuy apparently got an error message but his device might be creating bigger photo files than my 3 year old iPhone.






Craig


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## willray (Sep 12, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> let's go back to the original question of why the spindle turns at a low RPM - this is important - there is a *huge* difference between "off" and "zero RPM" to a controller.  Off means it is unpowered.  Zero RPM means that the motor is fully energized and will resist (to the best of its ability) any attempt to turn it.



With all due respect, no.

Unless you are using some kind of servo (or I suppose stepper) drive system, "zero RPM" to the controller means "put out zero power".  It does nothing to lock or restrict rotation of the rotor.  There undoubtedly are servo-drive lathe spindles, but I suspect very, very few of us are using them.

The real origin of the confusion is that in these (and similar) lathes, the "speed knob" (potentiometer, whatever) is a speed knob, it's not an off switch.   You want "off", you turn the motor off.  You want slow, you turn the speed knob to slow.




> All _real lathes_ have a drum switch or a push button for start/stop.  when you want the lathe to stop, you press "stop", when you want it to go, you press "start".
> 
> The low RPM with the knob at minimum speed is a safety feature so you don't burn out the motor.



Again I beg to differ.  On all the _real_ lathes I've met, when you want the lathe to start, you engage the clutch, and when you want it to stop, you disengage the clutch and engage the brake.  The push button "start" switch only spools up the motor, and it won't activate if the clutch is engaged.

Low RPM with the knob at minimum speed is because you presumably want the lathe to turn at minimum speed when you have the knob at minimum speed...  It would be kind of silly to have it do otherwise


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## willray (Sep 12, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> the problem is that every time you stop it you then have to faff with the covered locked ON OFF switch to get it going again and if you use the forward stop reverse switch the same thing happens there seems to be no simple start stop with it at all



A quick look at what I think is your lathe's supposed schematic, and it appears that the Forward/Reverse/0 switch is intended to let you switch the lathe between running (either direction) and stopped, without needing to manipulate the covered/locked Start switch.  The instruction manual (if I've got the right one) seems to agree with this.



			https://www.chesterhobbystore.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DB10-Lathe.pdf
		


It looks like the covered "Start" switch is supposed to engage the electronics/brain, and the forward/reverse/0 switch is supposed to engage the motor, if the electronics/brain are engaged.


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

trlvn said:


> To others, what is the file size limit for this forum?  I'm able to upload a 4.4 MB (see following).  OldGuy apparently got an error message but his device might be creating bigger photo files than my 3 year old iPhone.
> 
> View attachment 139955
> 
> ...


Hi craig I'm taking it that you do the uploading direct from your iPhone maybe that's my problem I'm doing it from my mac and maybe it increases the size of the picture to suit the mac and when I am using the mac I don't get any of the windows you are showing the only thing that comes up in the file window when you click on the photo is share not export. My iPhone is well over 3yrs old I bought it second hand from a good friend when he upgraded for what he would have got for it as a trade in
I think I might try to do it directly from the iPhone and see what happens
Thanks Craig


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

There's just one other thing all things electronic seem to have a pathological hatred for me or so it seems

only joking


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

willray said:


> A quick look at what I think is your lathe's supposed schematic, and it appears that the Forward/Reverse/0 switch is intended to let you switch the lathe between running (either direction) and stopped, without needing to manipulate the covered/locked Start switch.  The instruction manual (if I've got the right one) seems to agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi willray
I decided to check a few things on the lathe yesterday like if the chuck guard being up or down made any difference to the on off situation and if you lift the guard you then have to restart the lathe with the start button, and also if you go from forward to reverse  it turns the lathe off and you have to restart it on the start button again do you think the lathe might be wired wrong, that is the correct wiring diagram as the one in my manual but I don't fully understand it so can't comment on how its all supposed to work
Thanks for your input John


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

I have just opened one of the pics on my mac and gone into get info and this is what came up

iPhone 8 plus
wide camera 28mm-f1.8
3024x4032       780 KB

as for taking the picture i just got the phone on camera and took the pic so I have no idea if that is big or small


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

Well here's a numpty attempt at uploading a few pics I don't know if its still going to be there when I post it the problem has been that some pics go but others get the too big message even though when you get the info on them they are all the same size ie 1.7mb and the vids not having it at all


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

That was an attempt to show how bad a finish I got on my first attempt at machining a bar of indeterminate metal


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

The vid is 56.2 mb


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## trlvn (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi craig I'm taking it that you do the uploading direct from your iPhone maybe that's my problem I'm doing it from my mac and maybe it increases the size of the picture to suit the mac and when I am using the mac I don't get any of the windows you are showing the only thing that comes up in the file window when you click on the photo is share not export. My iPhone is well over 3yrs old I bought it second hand from a good friend when he upgraded for what he would have got for it as a trade in
> I think I might try to do it directly from the iPhone and see what happens
> Thanks Craig


No, I'm not uploading directly from the iPhone.  Each of the many screenshots I've posted show clickable buttons--not tap targets as one would see in iOS apps.

Craig


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## trlvn (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Well here's a numpty attempt at uploading a few pics I don't know if its still going to be there when I post it the problem has been that some pics go but others get the too big message even though when you get the info on them they are all the same size ie 1.7mb and the vids not having it at all


Congratulations, you posted a message with photos attached.  How did you do it?

Craig


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## trlvn (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> I have just opened one of the pics on my mac and gone into get info and this is what came up
> 
> iPhone 8 plus
> wide camera 28mm-f1.8
> ...



What application are you using to open the pics on your Mac?

How do photos get from the iPhone to the Mac?  Do you connect a cable or did someone set you up with iCloud Photo Sharing?

I've been trying to help but you've never given enough specific information for anyone to understand exactly what is going on and where you are running into snags.  You might want to look into some basic training.  If you happen to be near an Apple Store, you can set up a one-on-one session:









						Apple Personal Session
					

Schedule a free one-to-one session with a Specialist and learn how to get the most out of your new device — only when you shop with Apple.



					www.apple.com
				




If your Mac is still within the support period, I believe these are available at no charge.  I think there are also videos and whatnot available via the Internet but I don't know a specific one to recommend.

Craig


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

trlvn said:


> Congratulations, you posted a message with photos attached.  How did you do it?
> 
> Craig


Hi Craig
Well I started by clicking the attach files button in the post reply box that opened a window with a load of places to choose from down the left hand side ie recent, documents, downloads, etc and right at the bottom after scrolling right down was photos I clicked on that and it connected to my photos I picked a pic i wanted to use and there was an upload button I pressed that and it started to download to the box in the posting box I did this with three of the pics that are there but when I tried some other pics it came up with the too big message I have noticed that a multiple pic button appears under the pics do I need to click that if I'm uploading a lot of pics. Hope that explains things

John


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

trlvn said:


> What application are you using to open the pics on your Mac?
> 
> How do photos get from the iPhone to the Mac?  Do you connect a cable or did someone set you up with iCloud Photo Sharing?
> 
> ...


Originally I was just opening my photos by clicking on the photos icon on the bottom row on the mac 

The photos are usually put on to the mac by connecting a cable but I do know that they automatically transfer to the mac I think that might be by the wifi connection but I'm not sure on that


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

Hi again Craig
About the iCloud thing, we bought a new laptop a few yrs back and there may have been a free iCloud usage deal with it or maybe it was included in the price that we were charged but we don't really need or want to use it, but that might be how the pics I take on my iPhone transfer on to the Mac automatically.
My wife recently got an Email saying that our iCloud contract had Expired and it would be £50 to renew it so she cancelled it
John


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

And yet again Craig 
I have at last found the windows you have put screen shots of  there seems to be a certain order you have to go in to get the windows to open I will now continue with the rest of the advice you have given me

Thanks again John

PS I did start by saying I am a pc numpty


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## willray (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi willray
> I decided to check a few things on the lathe yesterday like if the chuck guard being up or down made any difference to the on off situation and if you lift the guard you then have to restart the lathe with the start button, and also if you go from forward to reverse  it turns the lathe off and you have to restart it on the start button again...



Hi John,

The (not terribly detailed) schematic does show a whole-system-shutdown switch in the Forward/Reverse/Stop block, so I suspect that what you're seeing is the correct behavior.

I would expect it to not shut down if you go Forward - off - Forward, but to shut down completely and require a restart if you go Forward - (past) off - Reverse (or vice versa).  The reason for that is because reversing single-phase motors isn't as easy as reversing three-phase motors, and you really don't want to throw the motor into reverse while it's still spinning forwards.   Disabling the system and requiring a restart between them seems like a reasonable safety approach.

If it shuts the system completely down every time you move to off from Forward, even when you don't try to go past off to Reverse, I think that would be maddening.   Of course I also think box cutters that require me to hold the blade open to use them are maddening, and lawn tractors that shut off every time I go over a bump, and...

With respect to your turning finish, please don't take this the wrong way, but --- from your questions it sounds like you really don't know much about the carbide tooling you used, the steel you were turning, etc.  Given that, it's not terribly surprising your surface finish is less than beautiful.    Even people who know exactly what they should be, and are doing, sometimes get crap finishes.

From the limited photos, it looks to me like that might be stainless you were turning?  Without a perfect setup stainless usually turns about as nicely as a pink-pearl pencil eraser.

If that's not stainless, my first bet would be that your tool height was off, or something wasn't adequately rigid, and you chipped your tool almost immediately.  A teensy chip on the cutting edge will often give you a torn-looking finish like that on mild steel.

Best of luck!
Will


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

This is one of the pics that wouldn't upload  I have done it the way you showed and it seems to be ok there might be life in the old dog yet YIPPEE


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## trlvn (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> there seems to be a certain order you have to go in


That would be why I gave you step-by-step instructions!  

Anyway, glad you seem to able to post some pictures now.  I'll let someone else write up how to prepare a video in a format suitable to upload to the web site.

Craig


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

willray said:


> Hi John,
> 
> The (not terribly detailed) schematic does show a whole-system-shutdown switch in the Forward/Reverse/Stop block, so I suspect that what you're seeing is the correct behavior.
> 
> ...


Hi willray
The f/r switch turns the machine of as soon as you go to off which like you say is fair enough as you wouldn't want to whizz through from f to r if you were doing 2000 RPM

No offence taken about my turning skills as this is the first time I have attempted to turn a piece of bar. I started with the carbide tool because this happened to be mounted in the tool holder when I purchased the lathe, I tried a light cut to start but I believe that carbide tools prefer a more aggressive cut to give a better finish I do suspect like you say that the tool height might have a lot to do with the poor finish I don't believe that the tip is damaged but I might be wrong of course I will inspect it more closely.I did re set the height of the tool but this hasn't improved matters at all.
I bought a set of ready ground HSS tools but had no joy with these either they do seem to have a very sharp pointed cutting edge and I believe a very slightly rounded cutting edge can give a better finish.
The metal is definitely not stainless as it had a very rough surface to start with which in itself might not have helped the tool.
Its all a learning curve and it looks like it might be a big one
John


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## Old Guy (Sep 13, 2022)

trlvn said:


> That would be why I gave you step-by-step instructions!
> 
> Anyway, glad you seem to able to post some pictures now.  I'll let someone else write up how to prepare a video in a format suitable to upload to the web site.
> 
> Craig


I apologies if I have offended you I have alway thought that who ever invented computers spent a long long time working out the most difficult and illogical way to do anything on them and is laughing at us all, this might be born out by the absolutely enormous size of the manuals that used to come with the early computers.
I thank you again for all your help

John


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## trlvn (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> I apologies if I have offended you I have alway thought that who ever invented computers spent a long long time working out the most difficult and illogical way to do anything on them and is laughing at us all, this might be born out by the absolutely enormous size of the manuals that used to come with the early computers.
> I thank you again for all your help
> 
> John


Offended?  Not at all.  It was a tad frustrating, though, that after I put a fair amount of time and effort into preparing step-by-step instructions that you took a few tries before you actually followed the instructions step-by-step!  

Nonetheless, all's well that ends well.  Glad you got to a point where things are working.

Craig


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## willray (Sep 13, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> No offence taken about my turning skills as this is the first time I have attempted to turn a piece of bar.



Everyone starts somewhere!



> I started with the carbide tool because this happened to be mounted in the tool holder when I purchased the lathe, I tried a light cut to start but I believe that carbide tools prefer a more aggressive cut to give a better finish



This (carbide needs deeper cuts) is _partially_ an old-wives tale.  It's closer to the truth to say that the vast majority of carbide tooling, and especially replaceable-insert tooling, is designed for machines that can take a deeper cut, and therefore the geometry is optimized to produce a better finish with a deeper cut.  Brazed-carbide tooling does not have exactly the same problem, and there are actual _sharp_ carbide inserts - look for inserts designed for aluminum cutting if you want sharp - they last just fine in steel for hobby use.

That being said, your surface finish doesn't look like "not a deep enough cut".  It looks like bad tip geometry for the material.

An insert that's designed for a vastly deeper cut is one source of bad tip geometry, but your lathe is not designed for taking "carbide deep" cuts, so if the carbide tool you're using came with the lathe, I'm going to bet against it being intended for super-deep cuts.

Incorrect tool height turns good tip geometry into bad tip geometry, so I'd say that stays on the list of possibilities, but, if you describe how you're setting the tool height, that would help us rule that out.

Tip damage also does _exactly_ what you see in that section where you've got short little bright lines followed by tearouts going around and around your part. It also does that "mush metal over the edge" like you see at the shoulder between your different turning depths.



> I bought a set of ready ground HSS tools but had no joy with these either they do seem to have a very sharp pointed cutting edge and I believe a very slightly rounded cutting edge can give a better finish.



It's definitely true that a more broad cutting edge can make for better surface finish, but unless you bought pre-ground tools from someone who's just being an ass, the problem is more likely that you're either choosing the wrong tool, or presenting it to the work incorrectly.  (Or, the steel your turning is inappropriate for HSS) Many ground HSS tools have a rather sharp corner, but except for the threading tool, and sometimes roughing, few are presented to the work "sharp corner facing in".   It might help for you to track down something like South Bend's "How to Run a Lathe"



			http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3789.pdf
		


And look at their section on tool geometry.

... it's also entirely possible that you've just chosen to try to start your turning journey with a piece of completely snotty scrap steel.  I've a couple chunks of mystery metal lying around that just won't cut nicely for love nor money.  They're out there.  If you want to dial in your turning approach using a known quantity, buy a chunk of 12L14.  Machines like a dream, and it'll let you focus on learning to do your end of the job of turning, and not spend time getting confused by mystery-metal weirdness.

Good luck!
Will


----------



## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Well here's a numpty attempt at uploading a few pics I don't know if its still going to be there when I post it the problem has been that some pics go but others get the too big message even though when you get the info on them they are all the same size ie 1.7mb and the vids not having it at all


Hi OG,
First, I'd just like to say that a proper name and sign off would be nice.  Looking at your pictures I would say that it is the cutting tool you are using,  I hardly ever use carbide, it's really meant for production machines and high removal rates.  I much prefer HSS tools,  once you know how to grind (lots of information online and in books) and set them they are excellent and easy to touch up on the go with a diamond slip 'stone' rarely needing regrinding.  I've attached some examples turned with hss on my battered old Boxford lathe using HSS tooling.  Two are are examples of plain and taper turning one is faced and the last one is of a lathe mounted threading device for small threads, the steel, especially that of the faced piece is of unknown origin from a scrap pile.









TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi again Craig
> About the iCloud thing, we bought a new laptop a few yrs back and there may have been a free iCloud usage deal with it or maybe it was included in the price that we were charged but we don't really need or want to use it, but that might be how the pics I take on my iPhone transfer on to the Mac automatically.
> My wife recently got an Email saying that our iCloud contract had Expired and it would be £50 to renew it so she cancelled it
> John


Hi OG,

If you join the Boxford lathe Users forum on io.com, there's loads of helpful stuff on general machining for all turning not specifically for Boxfords and in the files section is a copy of 'Know Your Lathe' a book produced by Boxford which members cab download and which gives a lot of information about grinding and setting HSS tooling which is universally applicable.  The members may be able to point you to a forum specially for your lathe.

In my almost 60 years of turning both as a toolmaker and hobbyist of late I've not really come across a material which HSS won't cut well if ground to a suitable angle for that material.  I've used freecutting, cast, silver steel(drillrod in the US), high carbon, stainless and 'mongrel' scrap steels as well as most non ferrous and plastic materials.  The only material I find difficut are some bronzes but even they respond to HSS eventually when turned with care.  I've attached a picture showing a length of old hot rolled steam pipe from France made from goodness knows what, (note the many layers of paint and whitewash on the section in the chuck) that I turned up to make a 'round square' - a favourite of 'Bogstandard' who will be remembered as a founding member of HMEM by long term users, unfortunately John is no longer with us, he didn't take fools gladly and was not afraid of saying so.  Even the weld seam of the pipe didn't faze the HSS and parted with an HSS blade in a home made parting tool holder





And yes indexible carbide tooling is specifically produced for fast stock removal on production machines.   Also sintered tips like indexible carbide don't like intermittent cutting and can chip.  A length of HSS 10 mm square by 100 mm long will cost a fraction of carbide tips (e.g. £3.50 at RDG), can be ground differently at both ends and will last the average hobbyist a lifetime if treated properly.

TerryD


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## Old Guy (Sep 14, 2022)

willray said:


> Everyone starts somewhere!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Will
Thanks for all the great info as in your first paragraph I was actually wondering about this carbide thing as a lot of the vids I watch they are using carbide for pretty much anything they do from deep starting cuts to fine finishing cuts.I suspect the carbide I have was purchased by the previous owner at the time of his purchasing the machine I'm not sure if it comes with a selection of tools supplied with it. when I bought it there were three carbide tip tools but no HSS tools at all, the set I bought were from a well known engineering supply company on eBay called CHRONOS and would hope they are of a good quality I will post a vid of them and the wooden box they come in, they look very similar to a set sold by SOBA which I believe are a very good make.
I will definitely  have a look at the South bend vid you mentioned  and I know I have come across this web site before and could well be subscribed to it I will be going back to the various vids that go into using tools correctly.
I am hoping that the main cause of the abortion I produced is the snotty scrap steel syndrome I have ordered to short lengths of Black mild steel round bar and bright steel round bar but the they don't actually quote the number, I went to my local engineering steel stockholder to try to buy some 230MO steel bar but they only wanted to sell 3 metre length to me which was very puzzling as they had millions of off cuts of the various types of steel bar sitting sitting outside in wooden pallet boxes when I enquired about the offcuts they said they were all of specialised steel and their mild steel offcuts go straight into a ship in the yard that a scrap metal dealer buys of them and they are not allowed to go skip diving on fear of the sack.
I have been trying to aquire a piece of steel or cast iron to make a mount for QCTP to fit to directly to the cross slide it is approx 5" x 3" x 2" but its turning into an impossible task as no one seems to stock even 3"x3" square bar they all seem to top out at 60mm square I never expected to have this kind of trouble buying material
But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger you can only hope 
John


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## djc (Sep 14, 2022)

willray said:


> The reason for that is because reversing single-phase motors isn't as easy as reversing three-phase motors



Please could you look at part number 28 on page 24 of the manual and advise why you believe the manufacturer's description as 'DC motor' is incorrect. Would you also write a few words on what magic the control box might contain that allows variable speed from a single phase motor. Thanks.


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 14, 2022)

Hello Terry D
I'm not sure what you mean by the signing of with a proper name as I always sign off as John in all my posts,
I have never said that I thought that HSS tools were in any way inferior to carbide and I am sure they are excellent if not better than carbide for certain applications I only started with the carbide tool because it was the only type of tool that came with the lathe when I bought it and have since bought a set of HSS tools as advised by many of the web sites I have been watching before getting in to the dark art of grinding you own tools which I would imagine takes a fair amount of skill and practice to do properly.
As a self confessed newbie to machining I am obviously groping in the dark at the moment for many things, the last time I had anything to do with engineering was when I was 16 years old when did an introductory training course at a large engineering company in Oldham I am now 73 the only thing I can remember of that course was some training on a milling machine but even that is a blur.
Thanks for all your advise which I will be taking on board and some great pics there as well...John


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hello Terry D
> I'm not sure what you mean by the signing of with a proper name as I always sign off as John in all my posts,
> I have never said that I thought that HSS tools were in any way inferior to carbide and I am sure they are excellent if not better than carbide for certain applications I only started with the carbide tool because it was the only type of tool that came with the lathe when I bought it and have since bought a set of HSS tools as advised by many of the web sites I have been watching before getting in to the dark art of grinding you own tools which I would imagine takes a fair amount of skill and practice to do properly.
> As a self confessed newbie to machining I am obviously groping in the dark at the moment for many things, the last time I had anything to do with engineering was when I was 16 years old when did an introductory training course at a large engineering company in Oldham I am now 73 the only thing I can remember of that course was some training on a milling machine but even that is a blur.
> Thanks for all your advise which I will be taking on board and some great pics there as well...John


Hi John,

Sorry I missed your name , I think that it's better to seperate the name from the text, it just makes it easier to spot.  As you are in the UK, I'll scan the relevant parts from 'Know Your Lathe' Boxford Book and send them via the 'conversations' which is part of this forum, it is accessed via the envelope icon next to your username, however I will need your full name for that - the one you registered her with.  I also have a copy of the South Bend book mentioned by someone else,  I too a rather rough scan from the internet and spent a long time tidying it up to make it very legible and readable, I'll also send a copy of that.

If you need it I can grind up a couple of HSS  tools for you to try with instructions on setting tool height etc if you woulld like you can message me via conversations,  I'll see if I can message you using your username 'Old Guy'.

I'm 76 myself and served my apprenticeship with BMC (British Motor Corp, aka British Leyland, aka Rover group).  worked in engineering for some years before qualifying as a teacher and taught Mechanical Engineering for many years with experience on lots of machine tools and industrial practices such as metal casting as well as machining.

Best regards, get in touch,

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hello Terry D
> I'm not sure what you mean by the signing of with a proper name as I always sign off as John in all my posts,
> I have never said that I thought that HSS tools were in any way inferior to carbide and I am sure they are excellent if not better than carbide for certain applications I only started with the carbide tool because it was the only type of tool that came with the lathe when I bought it and have since bought a set of HSS tools as advised by many of the web sites I have been watching before getting in to the dark art of grinding you own tools which I would imagine takes a fair amount of skill and practice to do properly.
> As a self confessed newbie to machining I am obviously groping in the dark at the moment for many things, the last time I had anything to do with engineering was when I was 16 years old when did an introductory training course at a large engineering company in Oldham I am now 73 the only thing I can remember of that course was some training on a milling machine but even that is a blur.
> Thanks for all your advise which I will be taking on board and some great pics there as well...John


Hi John, 

I just started a 'convesation' using your username and it seems to have been successful, send a reply to confirm and then I can send you useful stuff,

Regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

djc said:


> Please could you look at part number 28 on page 24 of the manual and advise why you believe the manufacturer's description as 'DC motor' is incorrect. Would you also write a few words on what magic the control box might contain that allows variable speed from a single phase motor. Thanks.


Hi,
Sorry to butt in to the conversation, DC motors are usually controlled for speed by using the DC current in conjunction with a PWM controller rather than using variable resistors which is another possibility.

For ac motors an example of speed controller is a VFD circuit, there are other methods.  it's not magic, just electronics.

Regards

TerryD


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## ShopShoe (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy,

I think you're on the right track to practice on known materials. My learning began with ordering and turning many different materials, but making sure a lot of those were "known" materials. If you want to experience what many say is the "nicest" turning, try some brass. It's probably a good idea to have some around for making small things that are softer than steel: I suggest making a brass-headed hammer as a project: You'll love having that tool available in your shop.

For learning about toolbits, get some preground HSS tools sized for your lathe and some unground ones to practice "matching" to the stock ones. (In the USA, Little Machine Shop sells a kit with the preground and blanks for practicing and learning, perhaps a supplier closer to you does the same -- Does Anyone Know?)

Otherwise, online information on grinding HSS toolbits is all over.

--ShopShoe


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

ShopShoe said:


> Old Guy,
> 
> I think you're on the right track to practice on known materials. My learning began with ordering and turning many different materials, but making sure a lot of those were "known" materials. If you want to experience what many say is the "nicest" turning, try some brass. It's probably a good idea to have some around for making small things that are softer than steel: I suggest making a brass-headed hammer as a project: You'll love having that tool available in your shop.
> 
> ...


Hi S.S.,

There are several excellent suppliers here in the UK, RDG engineering supplies and Chronos are a couple of the best, but most of the machine tool suppliers such as Chester and ArcEurotrade are tool suppliers and of course there is always eBay.  I have however offered to grind up a couple of tools for John as example to try.  As for materials I find that I can turn just about anything given the right cutting geometry with HSS, mind you I've not done much lead or uranium etc so I can't speak for those .  It is such a useful, forgiving and versatile material unlike sintered carbide tools which are generally specialised (there's an oxymoron for you) and there is a need to buy many types of tips to get the best from them.

Anyway that's just an opinion and others will have different ones, it's the way of the world, I just accept the differences.

Best regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hello Terry D
> ,,,,,,,,,,, before getting in to the dark art of grinding you own tools which I would imagine takes a fair amount of skill and practice to do properly.,,,,,,,,,,
> l...John


Hi again John,

Grinding toolbits in HSS is not so difficult.  To begin I use a cheap small double ended bench grinder monted on a board with a home made adjustable support, nothing complicated.  This is complemented with a simple set of card templates cut at various angles according to whichever tool I'm grinding, these are used to set the angle of the support rest.    Not my idea, it was one suggestion of Harold Hall.

IA few years ago I built an adjustable cutter and tool grinding table with accessories and modified a small grinder to accept diamond coated cup or saucer wheels at one end.  This was to the design by Harold Hall, a one time editor of Model Engineers Workshop magazine, but this is for much more complicated grinding but worth it once you have experience.  The basic grinding rest is here and is designed to be made using only a lathe.  Below is a picture of my version of the more advanced one, but the basic one is just as capable.  The rest was badly damaged by water during a garage/workshop fire (I was well insured thank goodness) and I refurbished it after rescueing it a few days afte the fire was extinguished and the building made safe.  Here are a couple of pictures.
*
1) Damaged grinding rest rescued following garage fire*:




The rust was not as bad as it looks, it was mostly just surface rust without much surface penetration.
*
2) The same rest after refurbishment, the accessories were likewise damaged and refurbished:*




Just shows what can be achieved with a selection of emery abrasive cloth and elbow grease. You can just about see a little of the modified bench grinder in the background, which is raised on a block of wood with a cup wheel fitted (the grinder not the wood!) .

Best regards

TerryD


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## djc (Sep 14, 2022)

terryd said:


> For ac motors an example of speed controller is a VFD circuit, there are other methods.  it's not magic, just electronics.



I wonder if you could show me a VFD that works on the single phase AC motor that willray thinks is powering the machine in question.


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## willray (Sep 14, 2022)

djc said:


> Please could you look at part number 28 on page 24 of the manual and advise why you believe the manufacturer's description as 'DC motor' is incorrect. Would you also write a few words on what magic the control box might contain that allows variable speed from a single phase motor. Thanks.



Ah, never mind - you're absolutely right, I missed that it was a DC drive!  Thanks for pointing that out.

I think if you look closely at the motor used in the Chester DB10 and similar lathes, you'll see the magic that enables it to be speed controlled when used on either DC or AC...

Will


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## willray (Sep 14, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> I am hoping that the main cause of the abortion I produced is the snotty scrap steel syndrome I have ordered to short lengths of Black mild steel round bar and bright steel round bar but the they don't actually quote the number



Do be aware that 1018, one of the more common steels you'll find as what I think you'd call "black mild steel" ("hot rolled" over here), can be a bit of a challenge to get a good finish on.  It likes _sharp_ tooling and, at least on my lighter lathes, cutting oil makes a big difference.

Good luck!
Will


----------



## william_b_noble (Sep 15, 2022)

willray said:


> With all due respect, no.
> 
> Unless you are using some kind of servo (or I suppose stepper) drive system, "zero RPM" to the controller means "put out zero power".  It does nothing to lock or restrict rotation of the rotor.  There undoubtedly are servo-drive lathe spindles, but I suspect very, very few of us are using them.
> 
> ...


I will respectfully disagree, we are both right in some way.  The lathe in question is driven by an electronic drive, probably a 3hr33 phase AC drive.  Every variable frequency AC drive I fave used attempts to drive the motor to the commanded speed.   Zero rpm means just that, the machine is commanded to resist rotation of the spindle, the motor is not uncovered until the drive is commanded to depower the motor.  On the drives I set up, I do this using 3-wire control and pushbuttons.  The drive remains energized so it can accept new commands, but when STOP is selected and the deceleration profile, if any, has completed, the drive removes power from the motor.  This is not what happens when the frequency is adjusted to a low, even 0 value.


Similarly,  with a DC drive, with either a tach or back EMF feedback, the drive will provide current into the motor to achieve the commanded RPM.  Only when commanded to do so will the drive remove power.


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## Jules (Sep 15, 2022)

Hi John, 
as others have mentioned you need to know what you are turning. 
Don’t buy material with just a description but buy specific types. 
I’d get some EN1A to start with. 
That can be turned to a lovely finish. 
Practice with that until you get it right. 
As for your Starting and Stopping issues. 
Your lathe is designed to start using the button. It’s known as a “No volt release.” If you open the guard or hit the reverse switch, you will need a reset. 
It is done to prevent the machine starting accidentally. If the power goes off the lathe won’t restart or if you close the guard it won’t restart, until you press the reset. 
Good luck and have fun. 
Julian


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## Dalboy (Sep 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi again John,
> 
> Grinding toolbits in HSS is not so difficult.  To begin I use a cheap small double ended bench grinder monted on a board with a home made adjustable support, nothing complicated.  This is complemented with a simple set of card templates cut at various angles according to whichever tool I'm grinding, these are used to set the angle of the support rest.    Not my idea, it was one suggestion of Harold Hall.
> 
> ...


Sorry Old Guy for going off topic.

TerryD can I ask was this made from plans or your own design if from plans where can they be obtained thank you

Derek.

I am also a new metal turner/worker as normally I am found woodworking and woodturning. Started my first project in January


----------



## terryd (Sep 15, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi again Craig
> About the iCloud thing, we bought a new laptop a few yrs back and there may have been a free iCloud usage deal with it or maybe it was included in the price that we were charged but we don't really need or want to use it, but that might be how the pics I take on my iPhone transfer on to the Mac automatically.
> My wife recently got an Email saying that our iCloud contract had Expired and it would be £50 to renew it so she cancelled it
> John


Hi John,

  I use a Macbook, iPad and iPhone as well as a PC.  The basic iCloud is free with no setup charges for Mac owners up to 5gb storage.  When you exceed the basic limit it is possible to increase the strage limit , I upped mine to 50gb for a relatively small monthly payment.  There *never* is a setup fee, there are two possible explanations for you experience, yo have exceeded the 5gb nasic limit and need to increase your storage limit, but it wouldn't cost £50.00 to '_set up_' or it was a scam and was attempting to get your bank details.  As a Mac owner you still have 5gb of free storage - it doesn't lapse.  Check out the iCloud link on your Mac.
  At least that's how I understand the situation.

Best regards

TerryD


----------



## terryd (Sep 15, 2022)

Dalboy said:


> Sorry Old Guy for going off topic.
> 
> TerryD can I ask was this made from plans or your own design if from plans where can they be obtained thank you
> 
> ...


Hi Derek,

 It is in Harold Hall's books available on Amazon, often 2nd hand relatively cheaply, these have both plans and extensive instructions (once you get to know his system!).  The one for the basic rest which is excellent and all of the instructions for additional devices to go with it is in Workshop Practice Series No 38.  Here is an_ Amazon link _(click text).  There is more information on Harold's site which I linked to in the previous message but _here it is_ again, (click text).

Regards

TerryD


----------



## ajoeiam (Sep 15, 2022)

Jules said:


> Hi John,
> as others have mentioned you need to know what you are turning.
> Don’t buy material with just a description but buy specific types.
> I’d get some EN1A to start with.
> ...




For those on this side of the Atlantic - - - that's 1215 steel.


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi Derek,
> 
> It is in Harold Hall's books available on Amazon, often 2nd hand relatively cheaply, these have both plans and extensive instructions (once you get to know his system!).  The one for the basic rest which is excellent and all of the instructions for additional devices to go with it is in Workshop Practice Series No 38.  Here is an_ Amazon link _(click text).  There is more information on Harold's site which I linked to in the previous message but _here it is_ again, (click text).
> 
> ...



Thank you very much TerryD.
Only about 1 hour ago I placed an order and got the Screwcutting book on order so will order that one as it could be useful with the next one


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi John,
> 
> I use a Macbook, iPad and iPhone as well as a PC.  The basic iCloud is free with no setup charges for Mac owners up to 5gb storage.  When you exceed the basic limit it is possible to increase the strage limit , I upped mine to 50gb for a relatively small monthly payment.  There *never* is a setup fee, there are two possible explanations for you experience, yo have exceeded the 5gb nasic limit and need to increase your storage limit, but it wouldn't cost £50.00 to '_set up_' or it was a scam and was attempting to get your bank details.  As a Mac owner you still have 5gb of free storage - it doesn't lapse.  Check out the iCloud link on your Mac.
> At least that's how I understand the situation.
> ...


Hi Terry
I was thinking it might be a scam myself these people will try anything to get your money, but as far as using too much iCloud I doubt that because we don't use it at all and only if things are taken to iCloud automatically with out our knowledge that would be the only way there was  any use at all, Something like every time you take a photo and transfer it to mac and it gets stored in iCloud automatically perhaps. The only time I remember anything going to iCloud was when I bought a kindle book and that was sent to iCloud and I had to download from there if I remember correctly. I personally have no need or wish to have any details pertaining to me floating around the internet cloud.
Thanks for the info
john


----------



## willray (Sep 15, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> I will respectfully disagree, we are both right in some way.  The lathe in question is driven by an electronic drive, probably a 3hr33 phase AC drive.
> ...
> Similarly,  with a DC drive, with either a tach or back EMF feedback, the drive will provide current into the motor to achieve the commanded RPM.  Only when commanded to do so will the drive remove power.



Heh - I think you have a vastly over-optimistic opinion of the engineering under the hood of commodity Chinese machine tools 

The machine in question uses a brushed universal motor, and appears to have only a 2-wire connection to the motor.  I don't believe there's any way to command zero RPM from a universal motor.  It's possible to electronically brake one, but this is not "powered" to zero RPM.


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi again John,
> 
> Grinding toolbits in HSS is not so difficult.  To begin I use a cheap small double ended bench grinder monted on a board with a home made adjustable support, nothing complicated.  This is complemented with a simple set of card templates cut at various angles according to whichever tool I'm grinding, these are used to set the angle of the support rest.    Not my idea, it was one suggestion of Harold Hall.
> 
> ...





terryd said:


> Hi Terry I said I would take some pics of the tools I have SO here they are


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 15, 2022)

The pics of the single tool is the one I attempted to use, the carbide tools were the ones that came with the lathe I used the one in the middle.
As for setting the tool height I put a centre in the tailstock and moved the carriage and tool post up to it and then shimmed the tool up to the centre point I don't know if this is the best way to do it

John


----------



## willray (Sep 15, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> The pics of the single tool is the one I attempted to use, the carbide tools were the ones that came with the lathe I used the one in the middle.



Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

The carbide-insert tool you used is (at best) a threading tool.  If you swing your toolpost over, it'll work like a normal turning tool since the inserts are all the same (though the seat angles may not be), but if you presented that point-in to the work, that's certainly not helping your surface finish.

Amongst your carbide tools, the one intended for turning, from tailstock towards headstock, is the one at the left of the photo.   Present that to the work with the tool-holder perpendicular to the turning axis.

[edit]  looking again, I take that back.  I think the one on the left is actually supposed to be a boring bar.  There should be one that's the mirror image of the one on the right, that should be for diameter turning, tailstock-to-headstock.  The boring bar geometry isn't horrible for diameter turning though.

The HSS tool that you used is a sheer facing tool, intended for cutting in to, and facing the right side of a step diameter change, from smaller radius on the right to larger radius on the left.  It also won't turn diameters for beans.

The tool ground most like how _I_ would grind a diameter-turning tool (tailstock-to-headstock turning) is the 2nd from the left in your box of bits.  Others might prefer different geometries for that, but that tip profile, minus the pocket removed from the left, is my go-to utility HSS diameter-turning profile.  Again, presented shank of the tool perpendicular to the turning axis.



> As for setting the tool height I put a centre in the tailstock and moved the carriage and tool post up to it and then shimmed the tool up to the centre point I don't know if this is the best way to do it



The best way I know of to get the tool adequately on center, is to grab a steel ruler or other long, thin, straight length of metal, and pin it between your work and the tool tip.   Shim, or otherwise adjust your tool height until the ruler ends up perfectly vertical when pinned against the work.  If it tilts "forwards" over the work, your tool is too high, and if it tilts "back" towards the operator, your tool is too low.

... and don't trust that your tailstock center is the same height as your headstock center...


----------



## terryd (Sep 15, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Terry
> I was thinking it might be a scam myself these people will try anything to get your money, but as far as using too much iCloud I doubt that because we don't use it at all and only if things are taken to iCloud automatically with out our knowledge that would be the only way there was  any use at all, Something like every time you take a photo and transfer it to mac and it gets stored in iCloud automatically perhaps. The only time I remember anything going to iCloud was when I bought a kindle book and that was sent to iCloud and I had to download from there if I remember correctly. I personally have no need or wish to have any details pertaining to me floating around the internet cloud.
> Thanks for the info
> john


Hi John,

  I can understand your worries about personal data, especially if you are unclear as to how it all operates. 
   The so called 'cloud' is just a series of large data banks and servers.  There are no personal details kept there just your content data which is encrypted and just about impossible to read (similar to many messaging services).  If you have a Mac and or iPhone your images etc will be automatically stored and believe me that is so useful as a backup when inevitably things go wrong with your own machine, and like any machine that is sadly the case.   Many people have lost valuable or cherished data (pictures, documents etc) if they have no backupwhen an hard drive goes poof!  The connection to iCloud is simply that, a connection to a storage system, no personal details sent, that is why companies, organisations and individuals are happy to use the 'cloud', it is probably much more secure and safe than your home system especially when using wifi.
  ICloud has end to end encryption of data which means that only your (trusted) machine can decrypt it when you recall it.  To Quote Apple (whom I trust as much as I do anyone):

_"End-to-end encryption
 This means that *only you can decrypt and access your information, and only on trusted devices where you're signed in with your Apple ID*. No one else, not even Apple, can access your end-to-end encrypted data."_


Best regards

TerryD


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 15, 2022)

willray said:


> Ok, now we're getting somewhere.
> 
> The carbide-insert tool you used is (at best) a threading tool.  If you swing your toolpost over, it'll work like a normal turning tool since the inserts are all the same (though the seat angles may not be), but if you presented that point-in to the work, that's certainly not helping your surface finish.
> 
> ...



The centre Insert tool is not a thread cutter the angle is to big but is used for turning down bar stock as are the one on the left and right of that one being a right hand and the other a left hand turning tool. The best one to use would be the left hand one in the picture know as a right hand cutting tool.

The single HSS tool is also correct as a turning tool. The one you described as a turning tool to reduce the diameter is a boring tool.

In the box going from left to right the 1st, 3rd 7th and 8th tool are all for turning down the external material from a bar. The second is a boring bar. The 4th is internal threading tool the 5th is the external threading tool. The 6th tool is a parting off tool.


----------



## packrat (Sep 15, 2022)

Yes, center your tool with the head stock, lots of information on YouTube about how to do it, the steel ruler is one way like willray said..


----------



## willray (Sep 15, 2022)

Dalboy said:


> The centre Insert tool is not a thread cutter the angle is to big...



Ah, Dalboy is right.  I thought it looked fat, but my brain was not completely engaged when I posted.

Not a geometry I use for diameter turning.  I suppose it's bi-directional.  Anything else to recommend it?



> The single HSS tool is also correct as a turning tool. The one you described as a turning tool to reduce the diameter is a boring tool.



I'm less sanguine about this one...  Zero back rake does not make for nice diameter turning, at least not in my hands.

I'm surprised the set doesn't include the bog-standard right-hand turning geometry:

< https://www.metalartspress.com/howtos/sharpening-hss-lathe-tool-bits >

The little boring tool with a pocket and tip geometry like a traditional right-hand turning tool, thank you for that.  I'll partially blame lack of coffee and being in a rush, but, I've actually never had cause to use a boring profile ground into a HSS blank.  I've always had inserted (carbide or HSS) boring bars, and never thought about what one would do to make one with a simple HSS blank.  I would have figured out the reason for the pocket eventually, really!

Will


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 15, 2022)

willray said:


> Ah, Dalboy is right.  I thought it looked fat, but my brain was not completely engaged when I posted.
> 
> Not a geometry I use for diameter turning.  I suppose it's bi-directional.  Anything else to recommend it?
> 
> ...


No Worries Will I have that set myself and the company that I got mine from lists a description and diagram of each one that is how I know. The single one does give a good finish as long as you get the feeds and speed right. I also own the insert tools that are shown(as well as others)
Not that I have used them all as I also brought some decent boring bars


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 15, 2022)

Thanks everyone isn't life so much more fun when you can post pics.

Now I'm not disagreeing with anyone just stating my thoughts at the time, I used the Carbide one in the middle because it was already mounted in the tool post which seems like it was the right one, I thought the one on the left was a boring bar as it has a round shaft and if you mounted it in to a hole the cutting point would stick out on the cutting side of the hole, I also considered the one on the left to be a boring bar due to the offset and if you put this into a larger hole that too would have the point on the cutting side of the piece I don't know why you would need an offset to turn down a diameter.
My thoughts on the HSS was why on earth have so many of them got grooves cut into the top edge of the cutting face and thought at least 2 might be for facing off. I thought that no5 might be the best for diameter cutting but thought it might be a thread cutting profile also, I figured 2 was a boring tool and wasn't sure about 3 as it has a deep scallop out of the top of the cutting point, and 4 was for internal threading, not at all sure about 1 at all. I will have have a look at everybody's appraisals. To be honest I hadn't expected all these tools to have the cut outs in the top edge what are they for

John


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 15, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi John,
> 
> I can understand your worries about personal data, especially if you are unclear as to how it all operates.
> The so called 'cloud' is just a series of large data banks and servers.  There are no personal details kept there just your content data which is encrypted and just about impossible to read (similar to many messaging services).  If you have a Mac and or iPhone your images etc will be automatically stored and believe me that is so useful as a backup when inevitably things go wrong with your own machine, and like any machine that is sadly the case.   Many people have lost valuable or cherished data (pictures, documents etc) if they have no backupwhen an hard drive goes poof!  The connection to iCloud is simply that, a connection to a storage system, no personal details sent, that is why companies, organisations and individuals are happy to use the 'cloud', it is probably much more secure and safe than your home system especially when using wifi.
> ...





terryd said:


> _* signed in with your Apple ID*. No one else, not even Apple, can access your end-to-end encrypted data."_
> 
> 
> Best regards
> ...


Hi Terry 
Are you saying that whenever you put a photo onto your mac it also takes a copy to iCloud I didn't know that as far as storing anything I don't think we need to store a lot and I use a back up hard drive to keep what I want safe, I have a bit of a problem with the trusted device thing in that if someone stole you mac you wouldn't have a trusted device anymore to regain anything stored I suppose if your iPhone was also a trusted device there would be hope but as you can tell I know nothing about computers

John


----------



## trlvn (Sep 15, 2022)

@Old Guy The HSS tool you attempted to use looks dull to me.  See the bright line along the cutting lip:






The leading corner of the tool does all the cutting.  It should be very sharp and you should expect to hone it periodically to keep it from rounding over.  I like to use diamond paddles for honing.  Done regularly, you only need to use the fine and superfine.  The three surfaces that meet at the cutting edge should be very smooth and highly polished.

Honestly, the pre-ground HSS tools don't look well-sharpened and the geometry is questionable on several of them.  A zoomable picture is at the following link:









						Set of 8 SCT Solid HSS Lathe Turning Tools 12mm Square- SORRY OUT OF STOCK - Chronos Engineering Supplies
					

Set of 8 SCT Solid HSS Lathe Turning Tools 12mm Square- SORRY OUT OF STOCK from Chronos Engineering Supplies. Free UK delivery and great worldwide rates.




					www.chronos.ltd.uk
				




Since they are only charging 38 pounds for a set of eight, it makes me wonder if the HSS is really up to snuff, as well.

Craig


----------



## terryd (Sep 16, 2022)

Hi John,

I think from left to right:

1). Facing tool - to turn a face on a step change in dia. and get a sharp internal corner where it meets the smaller dia.
2). boring bar - internal dia.
3). 60° external threading tool;
4). 60° internal threading tool;
5). Unsure, looks upside down in box;
6). Parting off tool;  (I use parting blades in a holder);
7). Right Hand plain turning;
8). Left Hand plain turning tool.

I don't care for tools with such sharp points, I much prefer a round ended tool, especially for a finishing cut but keep a pointed one for sharp internal corners (or to cheat if I need to get a sharp corner at a step I'll finish off with a parting tool).  Having said that you can always re model some of them when you have experience and you can grind new shapes on the back end of others and use them flipped over.  Another alternative of course is to learn to grind your own tools using HSS blanks and sell the Chronos ones at some time in the future.  As far as the carbide indexable tools are concerned it looks as though the used tip has a problem.

I haven't commented on the finish you showed us earlier but looking again it seems as though it is a shaft of some kind as the unturned portion in the middle picture looks as if it is ground.  In that case it could be a high carbon alloy steel which would be difficult to turn.  The HSS blanks are arriving this a.m. but as I have the builders starting some work on the house it may be a day or two before I can come back to you.  I'll send another message by 'conversations'.

Regards

TerryD


----------



## terryd (Sep 16, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Terry
> Are you saying that whenever you put a photo onto your mac it also takes a copy to iCloud I didn't know that as far as storing anything I don't think we need to store a lot and I use a back up hard drive to keep what I want safe, I have a bit of a problem with the trusted device thing in that if someone stole you mac you wouldn't have a trusted device anymore to regain anything stored I suppose if your iPhone was also a trusted device there would be hope but as you can tell I know nothing about computers
> 
> John


Hi John, 

  I also have a back up disk which is all very well if it doesn't fail as did an earlier version of mine when I would have lost a lot of data (pictures, docs etc) if I hadn't had 'cloud' storage.  In fact many of my pictures are up on Flikr and Photobucket (the free accounts) as well but are set to 'private' so only I can access them, you can't be too careful. 
   As for a 'trusted device', my last pc was one but when I built my present one it was no longer trusted, however there is a convoluted process of 2 stage identification which involves phone and/or email as well as identification data, which again is encrypted, in order to get a new device trusted.  By the way from 5gb storage to 50gb cost only £0.79p per month

We really should have this discussion privately as it is way off topic.  PM me

TerryD


----------



## Steamchick (Sep 16, 2022)

This diagram may help?


			https://www.theengineerspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/lathe-tols-e1524889401899-min.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb19
		


And on a small lathe like this (similar to mine) I find it best to always use SHARP tools, - e.g. HSS tools or Carbide inserts for ALUMINIUM (Not cheaper ones for steel!). 
The Carbide inserts for steel that I have experienced always need to be "honed to sharp for best work. The small lathe just does not have the torque and STIFFNESS to handle the loads that are required to make the carbide inserts for steel work properly.
So, I use the HSS tools and keep them sharp. 
I rarely take more than a 0.020" cut - as the swarf can be too strong to break into chips - but usually many cuts of ~0.010 are good for this size of lathe. HEAVY cuts can be made, but the whole thing starts to twist under heavier loads, so you lose PRECISION. 
This is a hobby, so "manufacturing production" speeds and feeds are not suited to "Hobby" lathes. If you need big speeds and feeds then spend 10 times more on a heavy industrial machine that is designed to do the work.
But if making precision models, take it slowly, carefully, and enjoy the whole experience. - It works for me. Life is not a race: the only race is "the Human race"! Relax and feel good about your work, and you'll enjoy it. 
Centre tools with a rule - as above - then cut across an end of bar and the cutting centre will show you how accurately you have set the tool. - A centre "pip" means the tool is a fraction too low, but a pip that gets "pushed-off" by the tool means the tool is too high. - High is worse than low for anything as the tool will not cut properly but need "HIGH LOADS" to make it work. Too low, and there is a chance of the tool digging-in... but keep the tool end close to the tool post (a long whange hanging out is just bad practice! - It needs to be short and stiff for good work). - I never extend the cutting end of the tool more than 2 x tool-bar thicknesses from the tool post. - except where there is no other way, such as when boring. I.E. a 1/2" square tool MUST NOT extend more than 1" from the tool post support. But a 1/4" base beneath a carbide tip at the end of a 1/2" bar really needs more support, for the heavy cuts it is designed for. Which is one reason a 1/2" of HSS works so much better. 
The STIFFNESS of a 1/4" bar is 1/8th of the STIFFNESS of a 1/2" bar. So, the tool is just poorly supported and will vibrate under cutting loads, at the natural frequency of the stiffness of the bar. When I use a Carbide tipped tool, there is only the MINIMUM of tool extending from the tool-post - and I sharpen with a diamond hone to give it the best chance of doing the cutting (shearing of metal) that I want it to do.
Enjoy making precision parts - not swarf and scrap!
K2


----------



## terryd (Sep 16, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Thanks everyone isn't life so much more fun when you can post pics.
> 
> Now I'm not disagreeing with anyone just stating my thoughts at the time, I used the Carbide one in the middle because it was already mounted in the tool post which seems like it was the right one, I thought the one on the left was a boring bar as it has a round shaft and if you mounted it in to a hole the cutting point would stick out on the cutting side of the hole, I also considered the one on the left to be a boring bar due to the offset and if you put this into a larger hole that too would have the point on the cutting side of the piece I don't know why you would need an offset to turn down a diameter.
> My thoughts on the HSS was why on earth have so many of them got grooves cut into the top edge of the cutting face and thought at least 2 might be for facing off. I thought that no5 might be the best for diameter cutting but thought it might be a thread cutting profile also, I figured 2 was a boring tool and wasn't sure about 3 as it has a deep scallop out of the top of the cutting point, and 4 was for internal threading, not at all sure about 1 at all. I will have have a look at everybody's appraisals. To be honest I hadn't expected all these tools to have the cut outs in the top edge what are they for
> ...


Hi John,

The 'grooves' on the top of the HSS tools are there to provide a 'rake angle' which varies according to the material being cut. for example the proper top rake for Brass is zero while for free cutting mild steel it would be around 7° (I admit that I also use these to cut brass).  Softer material such as copper or pure aluminium need even greater top rake angles.  If you have a look in the Boxford book I sent there is a good explanation of the tool geometry on page 20.  The tool holders discussed in this chapter of the book is now really out of date as QC toolposts have become more into the hobby market.  I think that your guesses about the carbide tools are correct.  I do actually have a set but very rarely use them.

By the way, if possible you should get to one of the larger model engineering exhibitions in the UK.  I usually get to a couple every year but of course with restrictions in force these have not been run for a while.  The Midlands model Engineering exhibition is a good one attended by people from all over the UKand is on Thursday, Friday and Satuday in the middle of October and is well worth attending if you get a chance allowing for the cost of fuel these days, although it is improving at the moment, but it would be at least a couple of hours drive for you (but mainly motorway).I'm not sure about any exhibitions in your area but I would expect there to be at least on big one.  At these larger ones there are usually many main suppliers such as Chester, Chronos, rdg etc as well as private exhibitors ranging from small schoolboy example to 1/4 scale traction engine , loco from small to huge as well as clocks, homemade workshop equipment and many other types of model engineering including some very quirky ones. they usually have workshops which are free to attend such as metal casting, turning etc., and a great opportuinity to talk to others and buy materials - if you pre order you can collect on the day without sometimes extortionate postal costs.
  Now I'm off to greet the builders!

TerryD


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## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

willray said:


> Do be aware that 1018, one of the more common steels you'll find as what I think you'd call "black mild steel" ("hot rolled" over here), can be a bit of a challenge to get a good finish on.  It likes _sharp_ tooling and, at least on my lighter lathes, cutting oil makes a big difference.
> 
> Good luck!
> Will


Hi Will

Well I have ordered some black mild steel bar so I will soon find out

John


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> This diagram may help?
> 
> 
> https://www.theengineerspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/lathe-tols-e1524889401899-min.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb19
> ...


Great advise Ken I will take it all onboard
John


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## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi John,
> 
> The 'grooves' on the top of the HSS tools are there to provide a 'rake angle' which varies according to the material being cut. for example the proper top rake for Brass is zero while for free cutting mild steel it would be around 7° (I admit that I also use these to cut brass).  Softer material such as copper or pure aluminium need even greater top rake angles.  If you have a look in the Boxford book I sent there is a good explanation of the tool geometry on page 20.  The tool holders discussed in this chapter of the book is now really out of date as QC toolposts have become more into the hobby market.  I think that your guesses about the carbide tools are correct.  I do actually have a set but very rarely use them.
> 
> ...


Hi Terry 
Thanks for the advise I will look into getting to the show
John


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

Jules said:


> Hi John,
> as others have mentioned you need to know what you are turning.
> Don’t buy material with just a description but buy specific types.
> I’d get some EN1A to start with.
> ...


Thanks Julian
At the moment I am having trouble finding suppliers that are quoting the actual type of steel or at least ones that would sell you shorter lengths,  the ones I have found on line seem to have a 3metre minimum, the search goes on for suitable supplier

John


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## Dalboy (Sep 16, 2022)

Just for interest take a look at THIS which shows the HSS Set look at the photos. As I said I have this set which was given to me along with a insert set when I brought 
my lathe and mill (well if you don't ask you don't get)

And looking at the carbide insert tools I think I got the one on the left wrong it indeed does look like a boring bar as pointed out earlier


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 16, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Thanks Julian
> At the moment I am having trouble finding suppliers that are quoting the actual type of steel or at least ones that would sell you shorter lengths,  the ones I have found on line seem to have a 3metre minimum, the search goes on for suitable supplier
> 
> John


Try somewhere like Metals4U at the bottom of each item there is a custom length box I buy by 300mm or 1ft. I am Just a satisfied customer


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## terryd (Sep 16, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> This diagram may help?
> 
> 
> https://www.theengineerspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/lathe-tols-e1524889401899-min.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb19
> ...


Hi K2,

The 'roughing' tool on the diagram (Middle row LH end) you linked to is my preferred basic shape and I use it for most of my turning as well as the LH cutting tool of the same profile for LH turning (which I rarely need to do.  I find that geometry very robust.  I even use the tool for most finishing but keep it well sharp and polished with diamond 'slip stones'.  For the facing off step diameters usually I use my parting blade, extended a little, into the internal corner.  I only use a special facing tool when facing across a completely flat surface and Often I find that I can produce an very acceptable face with my 'roughing' tool.  Of course for special jobs I may grind up a certain shape. but that is rarely needed.  Also tyro users may not know about the 'built up edge' of a tool which occurs when turning some materials, and how to combat the problem.

I should also like to point out here that the tool should be set a little above the centre to allow for the spring in the tool and the job, the larger the diameter the higher the tool needs to be.  South Bend, in their 1934 edition of 'How To Run a Lathe' suggest 5° above centre or 1/64th per inch of of the job diameter as do Boxford.  the tool should not be set on perfect centre, except to very small light turning.

Regards
TerryD


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## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

trlvn said:


> @Old Guy The HSS tool you attempted to use looks dull to me.  See the bright line along the cutting lip:
> 
> View attachment 140006
> 
> ...


Hi Craig
That's a bit of a bummer then I was thinking that if I bought a set from a good supplier like Chronos  they would be good to go  but it would seem not and those grooves to me look they make the cutting angle too great but what do I know it's back to you tube and see what the guys that have site are doing I think

John


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## terryd (Sep 16, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Thanks Julian
> At the moment I am having trouble finding suppliers that are quoting the actual type of steel or at least ones that would sell you shorter lengths,  the ones I have found on line seem to have a 3metre minimum, the search goes on for suitable supplier
> 
> John


Hi john,

Try _'Noggin Ends' _(click link), they used to based in the West midlands not far from where I was born, but are now in Stoke- on- Trent. For future refernce they have stalls at most major exhibition for purchase or collection of online orders. _ Macc Models_ in Macclesfield is also a good source for small quantities and of course there is the old standby eBay

TerryD


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## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi K2,
> 
> The 'roughing' tool on the diagram (Middle row LH end) you linked to is my preferred basic shape and I use it for most of my turning as well as the LH cutting tool of the same profile for LH turning (which I rarely need to do.  I find that geometry very robust.  I even use the tool for most finishing but keep it well sharp and polished with diamond 'slip stones'.  For the facing off step diameters usually I use my parting blade, extended a little, into the internal corner.  I only use a special facing tool when facing across a completely flat surface and Often I find that I can produce an very acceptable face with my 'roughing' tool.  Of course for special jobs I may grind up a certain shape. but that is rarely needed.  Also tyro users may not know about the 'built up edge' of a tool which occurs when turning some materials, and how to combat the problem.
> 
> ...


Hi Terry
I was hoping that the set bought would be more like the ones in the diagram but I haven't found any with those profiles so far.
John


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi john,
> 
> Try _'Noggin Ends' _(click link), they used to based in the West midlands not far from where I was born, but are now in Stoke- on- Trent. For future refernce they have stalls at most major exhibition for purchase or collection of online orders. _ Macc Models_ in Macclesfield is also a good source for small quantities and of course there is the old standby eBay
> 
> TerryD


Thanks for the link looks very interesting
john


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi John,
> 
> I think from left to right:
> 
> ...


Hi Terry 
The whole of the bar has been turned by me except the bit in the chuck and basically show different finishes achieved  its probably just a poor photo that might give it the ground appearance that would be something wouldn't it
John


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 16, 2022)

@Old Guy I have just been out to the workshop and using the HSS one that you say you used I produced these two finishes both turned at 250RPM the left hand side next to the dark area was at a faster feed than the end one(The black is only done with a sharpie to show the unturned section) The steel used is EN1

I also used cutting oil


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 16, 2022)

Hello Dalboy
There's a bit of a difference there isn't there's the bad finish was too fast a feed rate you reckon the smaller diameter on the end looks pretty good to me, but looks like even with EN1 you still need to watch what your doing.
I had a bit of a practice this afternoon I decided to part the end off the bar shown in the pics and supported the far end with a steady because it is too large to go through the spindle, I used the parting tool in the HSS set and everything went according to plan just, shows parting can be a sweet delight.
If you use an MT2 centre to steady a long bar what size centre drill should you use and how deep should you go.
I also found another set of smaller HSS tools that must have come with the Lathe they are 10mm on measuring them but for some reason look a lot smaller than the 12mm I bought
John


----------



## Dalboy (Sep 16, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> If you use an MT2 centre to steady a long bar what size centre drill should you use and how deep should you go.
> I also found another set of smaller HSS tools that must have come with the Lathe they are 10mm on measuring them but for some reason look a lot smaller than the 12mm I bought
> John


I normally go in about half to 2/3rd up the taper then put in a live centre to support. Others may do it different that also depend on what centre drill size you use


----------



## william_b_noble (Sep 17, 2022)

just a note - HSS is only expensive if you buy it new, not surplus.  I have sold off probably 100 pounds or more of HSS from an estate for $2 to $5 per pound (depending on what and how nice).  old broken end mills and saw blades are often HSS and make good tooling.

for the queston about what size center drill - it's best to use an actual center drill, and size it so the tailstock has a chance of staying engaged with the hole.


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 17, 2022)

Dalboy said:


> I normally go in about half to 2/3rd up the taper then put in a live centre to support. Others may do it different that also depend on what centre drill size you use


Hi Dalboy
I am asking the question  because I have destroyed the standard mt2 centre that came with the lathe despite lubricating with oil before use maybe I put too much pressure on it or maybe the hole was too shallow  not sure about this. I have bought a love centre but have found that it is too short and doesn't hit the pin to release it when you draw it back and it was a pain to get it out so I haven't used it again I'm thinking I might glue a small disc to the bottom to hit the pin
I think I bought it from Chronos so I might speak to them Maybe I bought the wrong one but I will have to check on that.
John


----------



## Old Guy (Sep 17, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> just a note - HSS is only expensive if you buy it new, not surplus.  I have sold off probably 100 pounds or more of HSS from an estate for $2 to $5 per pound (depending on what and how nice).  old broken end mills and saw blades are often HSS and make good tooling.
> 
> for the queston about what size center drill - it's best to use an actual center drill, and size it so the tailstock has a chance of staying engaged with the hole.


Hi will
I think that everything to do with metal and machining is much more readily available in the USA than it seems to be here.
I do have a set of proper centre drills but as they  are all the same angle all you are doing using the different sizes is drilling a deeper wider hole and was wondering if certain drills were intended for various sizes of MT centres.
John


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## Dalboy (Sep 17, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Dalboy
> I am asking the question  because I have destroyed the standard mt2 centre that came with the lathe despite lubricating with oil before use maybe I put too much pressure on it or maybe the hole was too shallow  not sure about this. I have bought a love centre but have found that it is too short and doesn't hit the pin to release it when you draw it back and it was a pain to get it out so I haven't used it again I'm thinking I might glue a small disc to the bottom to hit the pin
> I think I bought it from Chronos so I might speak to them Maybe I bought the wrong one but I will have to check on that.
> John


It just needs enough pressure to support the piece too tight may damage it as you work the piece it can warm up and expand making the centre even tighter. 
Keep checking that it has not become too tight during the turning.
Remember that Chronos sell at the lower end of the market and may not be as good quality as some of the more expensive places that sell the same type of products.

Keep it lubricated through out the turning operation. Even though I am relatively new to metal turning I have learnt a lot from those that have been doing it for years.
Keep asking questions I did when I first started
I am however reasonably good when it comes too woodturning and a few of the problems I can relate back to that.


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Dalboy
> I am asking the question  because I have destroyed the standard mt2 centre that came with the lathe despite lubricating with oil before use maybe I put too much pressure on it or maybe the hole was too shallow  not sure about this. I have bought a love centre but have found that it is too short and doesn't hit the pin to release it when you draw it back and it was a pain to get it out so I haven't used it again I'm thinking I might glue a small disc to the bottom to hit the pin
> I think I bought it from Chronos so I might speak to them Maybe I bought the wrong one but I will have to check on that.
> John


Hi John,

  The original machine suppliers (Chester?) will be able to provide extras such as live centres. 

 Remember there are 2 types of dead centre.  Hardened ones which are intended for the tailstock and 'soft'(unhardened) ones intended for use in the lathe spindle you can test this with a light stroke of a file, if hardened the file will skid.  Using a 'soft' centre in the tailstock can 'destroy' it by simple friction but they can be turned when mounted directly in the lathe spindle.  The reason for the use of such a centre in the spindle is for turning between centres when absolute accuracy and concentricity is required, it is spinning with the work so the headstock is effectively a live centre with no friction involved at the workpiece unlike at the tailstock end and can be itself machined in situ to eliminate any faults and ensure that it is exactly concentric with the lathe's axis.  It would be most unusual for a hardened centre to be as badly damaged as you describe as it would have to get to red hot in order to anneal  the hardness.

  Here is some advice from the Southbend Manual of 1934  explaining turning between centres, note the statement -_" ...the tail centre is hardened..."_ - implying a soft centre in the lathe spindle which doesn't need to be hardened.  And by the way to remove a stubborn device from a morse taper such as is in the tailstock make yourself a forked wedge when possible when, unlike the main spindle there is no rear access, also useful for removing stubborn chucks from a bench drill or milling machine spindle, without damaging the drawbar in the latter case.






Also for fun 





Best Regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Dalboy said:


> It just needs enough pressure to support the piece too tight may damage it as you work the piece it can warm up and expand making the centre even tighter.
> Keep checking that it has not become too tight during the turning.
> Remember that Chronos sell at the lower end of the market and may not be as good quality as some of the more expensive places that sell the same type of products.
> 
> ...


Hi John, Dalboy,

Just for your information, after my last post I came across this in the same Southbend 1934 Manual regarding centres:





Not sure if the ' _ "...groove around..."_ is still relevant here in the UK at least, I must check mine  but the comment about the_ "...always hardened..." _certainly is.

Regards 
TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Can anyone explain why we use uneccessary  construct 'Newbie' (or even uglier - Noobie) when there is a perfectly good, shorter to type, more elegant word  - Tyro (m. Novice)- from the Latin, so in use for over 1000 years and in English for at least 500 and in use certainly in the USA  

Best regards

TerryD


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## ajoeiam (Sep 17, 2022)

terryd said:


> Can anyone explain why we use uneccessary  construct 'Newbie' (or even uglier - Noobie) when there is a perfectly good, shorter to type, more elegant word  - Tyro (m. Novice)- from the Latin, so in use for over 1000 years and in English for at least 500 and in use certainly in the USA


Then why not use 'noob'?


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## Old Guy (Sep 17, 2022)

terryd said:


> Can anyone explain why we use uneccessary  construct 'Newbie' (or even uglier - Noobie) when there is a perfectly good, shorter to type, more elegant word  - Tyro (m. Novice)- from the Latin, so in use for over 1000 years and in English for at least 500 and in use certainly in the USA
> 
> Best regards
> 
> TerryD


Hi Terry
I think it may be because most of us and me imparticular might not be as well educated as yourself  despite having a Grammar School education and having latin as a subject there I  have never heard of the word
John
PS Or maybe I slept through that one


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## Old Guy (Sep 17, 2022)

Hi Terry
The Manual shows two centres supplied with the lathe an MT4 and a MT2 so you would expect the one supplied for the tailstock to be hardened, I'm going to get me file out if it is then I have managed to destroy a hardened one.
John


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## willray (Sep 17, 2022)

Regarding a dead center in the tailstock,



Dalboy said:


> Keep it lubricated through out the turning operation.



And generic "oil" is often sub-optimal.   The classic solution is white lead paste, but this is not to the liking of those who are concerned that we lick our tooling, so one is stuck with other solutions.

You can find assorted high-pressure lubes intended/marketed for use on dead centers, or, "Anti Seize" compounds containing Molybdenum seem to work fairly well.

If you're a purist, tins of white lead paste do show up on eBay from time to time, or, you can make your own.

Will


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Hi John,
It's bad practice to part off with the outer end supported like that.  It is possible to cause all sorts of mash ups and can be dangerous if the work piches the parting off tool as it's nearing the end of the cut..  Parting from the front normally is not to bad as long as the work is rigid and tool not too far out from the chuck.  If you must part off a long bar (I tend to go for a hacksaw even up to 50mm dia and occasionally more.)  One way of doing that job thogh  is to set up a fixed steady that the bar can run in and part of on the tailstock side of the steady.  If you don't have one of those, they are quie easy to make up from welded square tube and there are quite a few ideas on YouTube etc. Of course the lathe supplier will sell you a purpose made one.

For parting off the best solution is an upside down tool mounted in a holder on the rear of the saddle and with the lathe running normally.  with the front toolpost the main problem with parting is the tendency for the tool to 'submarine' below the work as the diameter gets smaller.  The geometry of the process done from the rear avoids that problem.  I'm in the process of making a rear mounted toolpost at the moment based on the example by G.H. Thomas (the Master - his book' The Model Engineers Workshop Manual' is just brilliant as is his 'Workshop Techniques').  To quote one of the sellers:
_ "The third book by this highly respected author will undoubtedly become the bible for both novice and experienced alike,....."_




The above was made from castings but mine is from solid bar stock, I'll send a picture when done.

Here's a video making a fixed steady using only a lathe.  The guy is using a hot rolled blank and I got similar from a local engineering company about 4-5" diameter which would do the job.    The base of course would be made to suit your own lathe, the 'legs' I would make from short lengths of hot rolled square tube. also have a look at the YouTube video by 'Enots Engineering' on a similar subject.

Regards

TerryD

Terry


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

willray said:


> Regarding a dead center in the tailstock,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Will,
When I started my apprenticeship we used tallow, solid fat but low melting point and excellent lubrication, but horrible stink
In fact as the stink got worse it was an indication of overheating and time to stop.

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Hi John,

Here's one of the blanks suitable for a fixed steady I got from my local engineering company this one is about 190mm dia. as you can see.  As one of my reverse jaws for my 3 jaw chuck was lost in a workshop fire I'll have to bore out in a 4 jaw chuck to the required diameter and then complete the job by hloding it with the outside of the standard 3 jaws using the bore as reference then face and reduce the external diameter, or i might just drive the 7 miles too the enginering company and see if they have any smaller blanks as they did before. 




Here's my Unrestored) fixed steady along with my (restored) travelling steady  you can see that the fixed steady (3 fingers) is only about 80 mm inside and it's done me well in the past:




I had a garage fire some time ago which destroyed much but quite a bit of the 'kit' was not irreparably damaged and I'm in the (slow) process of refurbishing the recovered items.

Regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Then why not use 'noob'?


So ugly and inelegant, like many US made up words like 'pled' instead of pleaded, 'dove' instead of dived,' snuck' instead of sneaked etc Ugh.  if  you fixed a faucet that leaks I think you'd say "it leaked" not "it luck".  There are perfectly good words used for many many years in English derived from classical languages that have stood the test of time without making up new ones, perhaps it's just a lack of erudition?

Terry


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## terryd (Sep 17, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Terry
> The Manual shows two centres supplied with the lathe an MT4 and a MT2 so you would expect the one supplied for the tailstock to be hardened, I'm going to get me file out if it is then I have managed to destroy a hardened one.
> John


You're probably right John,  My centres are all 2MT and I use a 2 to 4MT adapter to mount ones in the spindle

Regards

TerryD


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## ajoeiam (Sep 17, 2022)

terryd said:


> So ugly and inelegant, like many US made up words like 'pled' instead of pleaded, 'dove' instead of dived,' snuck' instead of sneaked etc Ugh.  if  you fixed a faucet that leaks I think you'd say "it leaked" not "it luck".  There are perfectly good words used for many many years in English derived from classical languages that have stood the test of time without making up new ones, perhaps it's just a lack of erudition?
> 
> Terry


Likely its more a certain laziness and also a lack of vocabulary.
I find that words like tyro are useful except the majority of people don't know what the sam snot it means.
Seems like everyone knows what a noob or a noobie is - - - and as I do like to be understood instead of wanting to stay in the shadows - - - oh well - - - (LOL) I be a noob in far too many areas (including being a people - - grin!).


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## Steamchick (Sep 17, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Craig
> That's a bit of a bummer then I was thinking that if I bought a set from a good supplier like Chronos  they would be good to go  but it would seem not and those grooves to me look they make the cutting angle too great but what do I know it's back to you tube and see what the guys that have site are doing I think
> 
> John


Hi John. I have bought tools and used them out of the packet and thought they were OK. But soon learned that close attention to "sharp" was worth the effort. 
Sometimes I think it crazy that I spend more time setting tools than cutting swarf... but the whole job is  dependant on the right setting, and I have had to rectify jobs when I didn't do enough time and effort being sure the setting was correct. So I'll let you learn from my mistakes, and advise you make the setting, then "check, check, check", "to be sure to be sure" your setting is good before machining your parts. Worth every minute of setting care.
K2


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## terryd (Sep 18, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Terry
> I think it may be because most of us and me imparticular might not be as well educated as yourself  despite having a Grammar School education and having latin as a subject there I  have never heard of the word
> John
> PS Or maybe I slept through that one


Hi John,
 The Latin spelling is tiro and refers, in Roman times, to a novice soldier.  by the way I sent you a message, I need an email address for you send it via converrsations for privacy

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 18, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi John. I have bought tools and used them out of the packet and thought they were OK. But soon learned that close attention to "sharp" was worth the effort.
> Sometimes I think it crazy that I spend more time setting tools than cutting swarf... but the whole job is  dependant on the right setting, and I have had to rectify jobs when I didn't do enough time and effort being sure the setting was correct. So I'll let you learn from my mistakes, and advise you make the setting, then "check, check, check", "to be sure to be sure" your setting is good before machining your parts. Worth every minute of setting care.
> K2


Hi K2,

This is from the Southbend 1934 manual,  The cutter should be positioned on a line 5° from and above the centre of the workpiece, it's also the recommendation of Boxford:



Regards

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 18, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Likely its more a certain laziness and also a lack of vocabulary.
> I find that words like tyro are useful except the majority of people don't know what the sam snot it means.
> Seems like everyone knows what a noob or a noobie is - - - and as I do like to be understood instead of wanting to stay in the shadows - - - oh well - - - (LOL) I be a noob in far too many areas (including being a people - - grin!).


Yes, I must admit that tyro is not widely used but that's because it's not widely used, especially by lazy folk.  But 'noob' does sound like something emanating from someone's nasal cavity.
I find it interesting that 'newbie' bcame 'noobie', then 'noob', so logically it next becomes 'noo', then 'no', then 'n' 
Regards

TerrD


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## ajoeiam (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> Yes, I must admit that tyro is not widely used but that's because it's not widely used, especially by lazy folk.  But 'noob' does sound like something emanating from someone's nasal cavity.
> I find it interesting that 'newbie' bcame 'noobie', then 'noob', so logically it next becomes 'noo', then 'no', then 'n'
> Regards
> 
> TerrD


I will be understanding 'noob' any time I see a floating 'n' in any of your further missives - - - lol. 

(But - - - but but but - - - do you expect to use no other 'n' words?)


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## terryd (Sep 18, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> I will be understanding 'noob' any time I see a floating 'n' in any of your further missives - - - lol.
> 
> (But - - - but but but - - - do you expect to use no other 'n' words?)


As a liberal white British European I have never used the 'n' word you are implying in your typical comment.  And I will never reference the ugly, snotty term you prefer to be identified by.  An example of nominative determinism if ever I saw one.  I prefer to use real words not made up ones by those who's poor erudition leaves a lot to be desired, that sort of problem is what got Humpy Dumpty into trouble.

By the way there are treatments to help people who stammer.

Best regards

TerryD


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## Old Guy (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Here's one of the blanks suitable for a fixed steady I got from my local engineering company this one is about 190mm dia. as you can see.  As one of my reverse jaws for my 3 jaw chuck was lost in a workshop fire I'll have to bore out in a 4 jaw chuck to the required diameter and then complete the job by hloding it with the outside of the standard 3 jaws using the bore as reference then face and reduce the external diameter, or i might just drive the 7 miles too the enginering company and see if they have any smaller blanks as they did before.
> 
> ...


Hi Terry 

Seems I may not have described what i did very well because I supported the far end of the bar with a fixed steady and then parted off a small disc on the tailstock side or maybe its not good practice to do that anyway 

John


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## RM-MN (Sep 18, 2022)

Old Guy said:


> Hi Terry
> 
> Seems I may not have described what i did very well because I supported the far end of the bar with a fixed steady and then parted off a small disc on the tailstock side or maybe its not good practice to do that anyway
> 
> John


Sometimes you need support at the tailstock end as you start parting off but beware of completing the part-off with the end still supported as it can jam and cause things to go wrong.  I might start parting but stop when I have only a small bit left and remove the support while I finish the parting with a hacksaw.


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## ajoeiam (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> As a liberal white British European I have never used the 'n' word you are implying in your typical comment.  And I will never reference the ugly, snotty term you prefer to be identified by.  An example of nominative determinism if ever I saw one.  I prefer to use real words not made up ones by those who's poor erudition leaves a lot to be desired, that sort of problem is what got Humpy Dumpty into trouble.
> 
> By the way there are treatments to help people who stammer.
> 
> ...


You went a whole pile of parsecs further in your inference than I had thought possible. 

I was thinking of words like north or never or  . . . . 
it would seem that your circle of acquaintances is sorta small - - - if you ever have occasion to hang out with the computer types you would find many many other terms entering your vocabulary. 
Now if you hang out with the military types you could add some more - - - mostly as abbreviations - - - such institution seems to delight in modifying individuals until they are happy with their conformity to their group. 

I take it you have never hear anyone ever sputter either.


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## ajoeiam (Sep 18, 2022)

RM-MN said:


> Sometimes you need support at the tailstock end as you start parting off but beware of completing the part-off with the end still supported as it can jam and cause things to go wrong.  I might start parting but stop when I have only a small bit left and remove the support while I finish the parting with a hacksaw.


Well - - - when you are parting off something when the cut-off is somewhat longer (needs to be supported in the process) it is possible to cut it and before one breaks through - - - like leave some margin - - - I'm not remembering any kind of exact amount at the moment - - - then you retract the tail stock quill just enough so there is no pressure - - - maybe even something like 0.060"  - - - followed by holding the piece being cut off with the right and advancing the tool with the left with the idea of catching the piece as it is cut off. 

If you are not holding the piece parallel to the part still chucked you can make a royal mess of things so if you are unsure of things you might be better served to use your hacksaw at that point and cut through the remaining nib - - - as far as possible from the good piece as possible. 
(Then as you had left some stock for your exact length you can now face off the piece using a different tool.)


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## ajoeiam (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi K2,
> 
> This is from the Southbend 1934 manual,  The cutter should be positioned on a line 5° from and above the centre of the workpiece, it's also the recommendation of Boxford:
> 
> ...


If you set your tool up at this 5 degrees above center you will find that if you are trying to face off your piece you will have issues. 
Right on the center line works the best. 

But - - - you are welcome to this however you wish.
(Issues will happen with HSS, brazed on carbide and cemented carbide tooling (likely also CBN and ceramics although I having done facing operations using either of those).)


----------



## Richard Hed (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> So ugly and inelegant, like many US made up words like 'pled' instead of pleaded, 'dove' instead of dived,' snuck' instead of sneaked etc Ugh.  if  you fixed a faucet that leaks I think you'd say "it leaked" not "it luck".  There are perfectly good words used for many many years in English derived from classical languages that have stood the test of time without making up new ones, perhaps it's just a lack of erudition?
> 
> Terry


I completely disagree with you.  Languages change, else French, Spanish, Italian would all still be the original Latin.  In the US, we use shortened forms of words which changes the language in itself, but also sthe WAY things are accented and pronounced also cause words to diverge.  Thaty way you get one word that becomes two or more words, maybe the spelling is different or maybe the pronounciation is different.  (The entrance is so entrancing.)  So one might say that a speeded up language revolution is occurring in the US.  BTW I prefer the Brit spelling of learnt over learned.  If we are going to use "learned" then it should be spelt "lernd" or "learnd".


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## VicHobbyGuy (Sep 18, 2022)

terryd said:


> There are perfectly good words used for many many years in English derived from classical languages that have stood the test of time without making up new ones, perhaps it's just a lack of erudition?
> 
> Terry


Languages change with time; especially English with all the words imported from other countries in the days of Empire (and before when French was the language of the Royal court, etc..). Don't rail against change - unless you speak Middle English (as in The Canterbury Tales) you're as guilty as the rest of us! 

Or if you prefer: Languageſ changæ with sīquār; especiallī  Saxọ̄̆nlī with unexceptid th' wordſ importede from othē̆r countrī̆se in th' adais ophe Emperālitē  (anede beforæ whan Frē̆nsh waſ th' languagæ ophe th' kinekin court, etc..). Don'Þ rail againsÞ changæ - unlesſ thee speak bordar     Saxọ̄̆nlī (aſ in th' Kentwærre  ǧē̆sting) thee'ræ aſ guiltī aſ th' resÞ ophe ū̆s! 
See:Modern English to Medieval English Translator ― LingoJam


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## Richard Hed (Sep 19, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> Languages change with time; especially English with all the words imported from other countries in the days of Empire (and before when French was the language of the Royal court, etc..). Don't rail against change - unless you speak Middle English (as in The Canterbury Tales) you're as guilty as the rest of us!
> 
> Or if you prefer: Languageſ changæ with sīquār; especiallī  Saxọ̄̆nlī with unexceptid th' wordſ importede from othē̆r countrī̆se in th' adais ophe Emperālitē  (anede beforæ whan Frē̆nsh waſ th' languagæ ophe th' kinekin court, etc..). Don'Þ rail againsÞ changæ - unlesſ thee speak bordar     Saxọ̄̆nlī (aſ in th' Kentwærre  ǧē̆sting) thee'ræ aſ guiltī aſ th' resÞ ophe ū̆s!
> See:Modern English to Medieval English Translator ― LingoJam


Yes, yes and yea!  The old language had two symbols that expressed the "th" as in thin, that is, an unvocalized form, and a 'th" as in then, the vocalized form.  These two symbols were like a backwards 6, the "then" form had a little cross on it.  I prefer these two symbols but they are not on my keybord.  It would help peo;ple trying to learn engrish as a second language too.


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## clockworkcheval (Sep 19, 2022)

During my first years in the general machineshop of Philips (now sold and the maker of the precision positioning systems of the world leading ASML chipmaking machines) I researched the amount of time spent on preparation and execution. In this machineshop (at the time comparable with GE-LEO) with production batches of 1 - 6 pieces it appeared that at each level the time spend in preparation was equal to the remaining time spend in execution. This means that the time spend to get the work on the shop floor, i.e. preparing the process plan, shop-planning, ordering material, cutting to length and getting the tools takes as much time as the production time in the shop. At the machine the set-up time roughly equals the running time for these small batches. And even during running time the time spend getting the tool in position equals the time spend in making chips (we found that one of the main benefits of NC control is the possibility of high speed positioning). So all together on average in this sophisticated one-off machineshop in the 1970's the time spend on making chips was at best 1/8 of total process time.
At one time we did the experiment to release the less complicated jobs without process plan, leaving it to the operators. But we found that this would often lead to an additional operation to make really sure that the parts came out OK - thereby increasing the number of operations on average from 6 to 7 with a similar increase in related throughput time.
So even now in my home machine shop I will spend solid time on job preparation!


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## HMEL (Sep 20, 2022)

terryd said:


> Can anyone explain why we use uneccessary  construct 'Newbie' (or even uglier - Noobie) when there is a perfectly good, shorter to type, more elegant word  - Tyro (m. Novice)- from the Latin, so in use for over 1000 years and in English for at least 500 and in use certainly in the USA
> 
> Best regards
> 
> TerryD


Yes, these words are derived from slang words from those who play video games.  They do not use Latin or Greek (few do) and it becomes part of the culture. And almost every young person plays video games.  Language is changing and reflects the culture it is in.  And it is why science uses Greek and Latin because those are dead languages and do not change with time or culture.  A word retains the meaning forever which is convenient in science and medicine.  I doubt very few are exposed to those old languages.  And I have no doubt that few are exposed to the power of good writing given the educational system we have created. So slang will prevail whether we like it or not.


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## Richard Hed (Sep 20, 2022)

HMEL said:


> Yes, these words are derived from slang words from those who play video games.  They do not use Latin or Greek (few do) and it becomes part of the culture. And almost every young person plays video games.  Language is changing and reflects the culture it is in.  And it is why science uses Greek and Latin because those are dead languages and do not change with time or culture.  A word retains the meaning forever which is convenient in science and medicine.  I doubt very few are exposed to those old languages.  And I have no doubt that few are exposed to the power of good writing given the educational system we have created. So slang will prevail whether we like it or not.


During Viet Nam era, a fresh recruit with no experience in the feild was called a newby for New Boy,. which sometimes was shortened to noob, also.


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## william_b_noble (Sep 20, 2022)

RE MT and relationship to center drills - there is no relation, other than if you are using a tiny center drill (say 1/16") and your tailstock uses an MT5 (e.g. a huge lathe) you would use an adapter to get to an MT1 or 2 size so you could mount a small chuck that could actually hold the little drill.

as for tool steel availability - I don't know about the UK specifically but you ought to be able to find burned out/dull tools for almost nothing from anybody with a production machine shop.  Then some quality time with a grinder and you have a boring bar or whatever you need.  

as for lathe centers, in this century, ball bearings are cheap and easy to get, so for your tailstock you would normally use a live center not a dead center.  you can resharpen your centers if they get dull or worn with a carbide tool (if it's hardened).  Of course you can also use a tool post grinder.


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## Steamchick (Sep 20, 2022)

It appears that in this multi-cultural forum we have started to bicker about "language" and pronunciation.
Surely, we should simply stick to the "Engineering and Machining issues"? - I am an old git who regularly cringes at some of the language used but recognise that mostly the message is truly transmitted - by all who use "English" as the common forum language. Even by those who do not have the fortune to have been raised and educated in "English, as she is spoke" - from 60 years ago - "like what I wus"...
Personally, I enjoy the language (and associated humour) - old and new - and have now fallen into the trap of discussing a distraction that I would prefer kept off this forum...
I'll just creep back into my little box and hide in my world of my prejudice...
K2


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## Richard Hed (Sep 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> It appears that in this multi-cultural forum we have started to bicker about "language" and pronunciation.
> Surely, we should simply stick to the "Engineering and Machining issues"? - I am an old git who regularly cringes at some of the language used but recognise that mostly the message is truly transmitted - by all who use "English" as the common forum language. Even by those who do not have the fortune to have been raised and educated in "English, as she is spoke" - from 60 years ago - "like what I wus"...
> Personally, I enjoy the language (and associated humour) - old and new - and have now fallen into the trap of discussing a distraction that I would prefer kept off this forum...
> I'll just creep back into my little box and hide in my world of my prejudice...
> K2


I didn't feel that way.  I thot it was simpl;y information which people were adding more info into  .  It is true however that the printed word (that is, the stuff we type) often comes out stronger feeling than if it was spoken especially amonge friendz


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## Steamchick (Sep 20, 2022)

Hi K2,

This is from the Southbend 1934 manual,  The cutter should be positioned on a line 5° from and above the centre of the workpiece, it's also the recommendation of Boxford:

View attachment 140060

Regards

TerryD
[/QUOTE]

Hi Terry,
I find this "curious" - and have been looking at the diagram. I can only surmise at the engineering behind the "5 degree" placing of the cutting point.
If you take the design of a machine and draw lines of force - e.g. from the cutting point through to the bed of the lathe - there will be certain Neutral points/axes that it is desirable to hit with the lines of force, thus minimising or eliminating bending at various points in the transmission of the force from tool point to the head-stock. - Therefore I surmise that on the South Bend design the lines of force from tool point into the main saddle are optimised at the 5 degree angle. 
Of course, the rake, clearance angles etc. must always be compensated for this 5 degree contact point rotation... as appears on the diagram of the tool.
I understand that "normal" tool clearance angles, rake, etc. are determined by toolmakers and engineers considering the tool to be introduced on the axis of the workpiece/machine, not above or below, as otherwise we would not know what to do?
K2


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

VicHobbyGuy said:


> Languages change with time; especially English with all the words imported from other countries in the days of Empire (and before when French was the language of the Royal court, etc..). Don't rail against change - unless you speak Middle English (as in The Canterbury Tales) you're as guilty as the rest of us!
> 
> Or if you prefer: Languageſ changæ with sīquār; especiallī  Saxọ̄̆nlī with unexceptid th' wordſ importede from othē̆r countrī̆se in th' adais ophe Emperālitē  (anede beforæ whan Frē̆nsh waſ th' languagæ ophe th' kinekin court, etc..). Don'Þ rail againsÞ changæ - unlesſ thee speak bordar     Saxọ̄̆nlī (aſ in th' Kentwærre  ǧē̆sting) thee'ræ aſ guiltī aſ th' resÞ ophe ū̆s!
> See:Modern English to Medieval English Translator ― LingoJam


Hi VicHobbyGuy,
You are confusing language with vocabulary.  I admit that I can't speak Anglo Saxon (although most of what you write is actually reasonably understandable with out consulting a translator as long as you know the symbols such as the thorn derived from a rune of the Elder Futhark or Fuþark). Neither can I speak old Scandinavian but I use their words almost daily - eg. day, night housewife, husband, son, daughter, pig, cow etc etc. But I can use contemporary language from the area I emanate from to confuse e.g. "Ah bist tha wench, bostin bin yo well keep on it 'n stay on the foad."  but I often have some difficulty with understanding friends from Newcastle on Tyne .  

Of course there were many changes in language and vocabulary especially before printing with movable type (C.1460 Gutenberg) and dictionaries to consult (Dr johnson C. 1750) plus cost reductions in the printed word and (almost) universal literacy.  An example of misunderstanding I came across recently was in my genealogical researches, one branch of my family is called Griffiths, but in a church record of 1710, probably written by a semi literate rector, it was spelled Grifis.  Which is the correct spelling, no one knows.



HMEL said:


> Yes, these words are derived from slang words from those who play video games.  They do not use Latin or Greek (few do) and it becomes part of the culture. And almost every young person plays video games.  Language is changing and reflects the culture it is in.  And it is why science uses Greek and Latin because those are dead languages and do not change with time or culture.  A word retains the meaning forever which is convenient in science and medicine.  I doubt very few are exposed to those old languages.  And I have no doubt that few are exposed to the power of good writing given the educational system we have created. So slang will prevail whether we like it or not.


Hi HMEL,
I disagree, most slang in by it's nature fashionable and hence ephemeral - where on earth would you find a slubberdegullion these days . We use Greek and Latin in everyday language as well as for scientific use, e.g. video - 'I see' (Latin) - you probably like to take a photograph (Greek - photos +Graphos) or to watch a tele (Greek -distance) vision (Latin - see) such concatenations to produce new words to describe new technologies are not restricted to science and using them does not mean we are speaking either language but using the vocabulary. As are words from many other languages most based on PIE (Proto Indo European).

Slang can vasy it's maening and be confusing.  With one letter change 'he's a real noob' to 'he's a real nob' has a very different meaning and a discussion of 'fanny' would be very interesting between a Brit and a Yank.  A good example is the slang language Polari which is meant to be confusing. and of course trying to learn a new language which has a lot of slang is almost impossibe for a tyro in that language to really grok it.  And of course, as slang is fashionable it usually goes out of fashion just as quickly and disappears making most slang so called 'dictionaries' unusable.

You too are confusing language with vocabulary, Anglo Saxon is dead as is old Scandinavin, Latin Greek etc etc but I use their words  almost daily - e.g. Husband (House Bound i.e. tied to the family group), housewife, son, daughter, pig, cow, day, night, moon, sun and so on almost ad infinitum (see what I did). I also use Hindi - e.g. Bungalow, elephant, khaki etc etc. but I dont speak any of these languages. These words can be understood by consulting a dictionary especially now, as you point out we have the ubiquitous WWW.

Anyway enough has now been said on the subject as George Bernard Shaw (or perhaps Oscar Wilde) said we are "2 nations divided by a common language" - capiche.  Now let our tyro have his thread back,

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> It appears that in this multi-cultural forum we have started to bicker about "language" and pronunciation.
> Surely, we should simply stick to the "Engineering and Machining issues"? - I am an old git who regularly cringes at some of the language used but recognise that mostly the message is truly transmitted - by all who use "English" as the common forum language. Even by those who do not have the fortune to have been raised and educated in "English, as she is spoke" - from 60 years ago - "like what I wus"...
> Personally, I enjoy the language (and associated humour) - old and new - and have now fallen into the trap of discussing a distraction that I would prefer kept off this forum...
> I'll just creep back into my little box and hide in my world of my prejudice...
> K2


Hi K2,

I agree even if I started it with a simple query.  I pray that I've finished it and left the thread back to John and his discussion, but I love the study of language as well as engineering  .



Steamchick said:


> Hi K2,
> 
> This is from the Southbend 1934 manual,  The cutter should be positioned on a line 5° from and above the centre of the workpiece, it's also the recommendation of Boxford:
> 
> ...



_Hi Terry,
I find this "curious" - and have been looking at the diagram. I can only surmise at the engineering behind the "5 degree" placing of the cutting point.
If you take the design of a machine and draw lines of force - e.g. from the cutting point through to the bed of the lathe - there will be certain Neutral points/axes that it is desirable to hit with the lines of force, thus minimising or eliminating bending at various points in the transmission of the force from tool point to the head-stock. - Therefore I surmise that on the South Bend design the lines of force from tool point into the main saddle are optimised at the 5 degree angle.
Of course, the rake, clearance angles etc. must always be compensated for this 5 degree contact point rotation... as appears on the diagram of the tool.
I understand that "normal" tool clearance angles, rake, etc. are determined by toolmakers and engineers considering the tool to be introduced on the axis of the workpiece/machine, not above or below, as otherwise we would not know what to do?
K2
[/QUOTE]_

I don't understand why this quotation has not presented itself correctly, I used the normal method for it , any ideas anyone?

Hi k2
Again I agree, but the tool in question is, I think (as far as I *can* think) supposed to be a RH roughing tool and the nearest line of its drawing is the rear of the top clearance angle?. If the idea is to take out any tendency for the tool to bend (submarine?) the rake would not change, but the front clearance might. Personally I have always set my tooling just above the centre line and then adjusted it as I see fit according to how it is cutting. I had such a problem yesterday when machining some thin 'fishbelly' (damn - language issues again )  links for the Stephenson linkages on a Stuart beam engine I'm refurbishing, it took a while to get exactly the almost perfect cut.  As you said earlier it pays to take time for setting up, sometimes much longer than the actual job in hand.

Best regards
TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> .................
> 
> as for lathe centers, in this century, ball bearings are cheap and easy to get, so for your tailstock you would normally use a live center not a dead center.  you can resharpen your centers if they get dull or worn with a carbide tool (if it's hardened).  Of course you can also use a tool post grinder.


Hi Bill,

 I generally agree with that sentiment but there are occasions,when the bulk of the body of a live centre gets in the way, especially when using a QC toolpost such as the Dixson type and needing to machine at the tailstock end of the work, then a dead centre is needed, or even a half centre if trying to face the end of a long job while it is still supported.  I think in such circumstances that it's good practice to get used to using a dead centre, and a live centre at other times.

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> I completely disagree with you.  Languages change, else French, Spanish, Italian would all still be the original Latin.  In the US, we use shortened forms of words which changes the language in itself, but also sthe WAY things are accented and pronounced also cause words to diverge.  Thaty way you get one word that becomes two or more words, maybe the spelling is different or maybe the pronounciation is different.  (The entrance is so entrancing.)  So one might say that a speeded up language revolution is occurring in the US.  BTW I prefer the Brit spelling of learnt over learned.  If we are going to use "learned" then it should be spelt "lernd" or "learnd".


You are confusing language and vocabulary, the bulk of words in English are of ancient origin even words to describe new technologies such as televison or photogaph are concatenations of more ancient words.  'Language' is a comination of grammar, structure and vocabulary.  Words can accepted from other languages, of course, but they are existing words from the root of the language then absorbed, used and codified into the vocabulary, very, very rarely are real additions just made up.  Slang and vernacular words are generally transient and ephemeral easily lost, for example try finding a 'slubberdegullion' these days.  As I've said elsewhere a discussion of 'Fanny' between a Brit and a Yank would be interesting as there is no common meaning between the two cultures using a supposedly common language. And of course Greek, Latin, French and Engllish are just a few of the languages rooted in the PIE.

Shortened words (aka abbreviations), change only the spoken language unless otherwise  codified by being accepted into a dictionary etc.

By the way, we generally spell the word learned but pronounce it learnt as a past participle but learned with annunciation of the final e is applied to one who is well educated or wise i.e. 'he is very learned and he learned his wisdom years ago', one word two pronunciations and two meanings.


----------



## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> It appears that in this multi-cultural forum we have started to bicker about "language" and pronunciation.
> Surely, we should simply stick to the "Engineering and Machining issues"? - I am an old git who regularly cringes at some of the language used but recognise that mostly the message is truly transmitted - by all who use "English" as the common forum language. Even by those who do not have the fortune to have been raised and educated in "English, as she is spoke" - from 60 years ago - "like what I wus"...
> Personally, I enjoy the language (and associated humour) - old and new - and have now fallen into the trap of discussing a distraction that I would prefer kept off this forum...
> I'll just creep back into my little box and hide in my world of my prejudice...
> K2


Hi K2,

I agree even if I started it with a simple query.  I pray that I've finished it and left the thread back to John and his discussion, but I love the study of language as well as engineering  .



Steamchick said:


> Hi K2,
> 
> This is from the Southbend 1934 manual,  The cutter should be positioned on a line 5° from and above the centre of the workpiece, it's also the recommendation of Boxford:
> 
> ...



_Hi Terry,
I find this "curious" - and have been looking at the diagram. I can only surmise at the engineering behind the "5 degree" placing of the cutting point.
If you take the design of a machine and draw lines of force - e.g. from the cutting point through to the bed of the lathe - there will be certain Neutral points/axes that it is desirable to hit with the lines of force, thus minimising or eliminating bending at various points in the transmission of the force from tool point to the head-stock. - Therefore I surmise that on the South Bend design the lines of force from tool point into the main saddle are optimised at the 5 degree angle.
Of course, the rake, clearance angles etc. must always be compensated for this 5 degree contact point rotation... as appears on the diagram of the tool.
I understand that "normal" tool clearance angles, rake, etc. are determined by toolmakers and engineers considering the tool to be introduced on the axis of the workpiece/machine, not above or below, as otherwise we would not know what to do?
K2
[/QUOTE]_

I don't understand why this quotation has not presented itself correctly, I used the normal method for it , any ideas anyone?

Hi k2
Again I agree, but the tool in question is, I think (as far as I *can* think) supposed to be a RH roughing tool and the nearest line of its drawing is the rear of the top clearance angle?. If the idea is to take out any tendency for the tool to bend (submarine?) the rake would not change, but the front clearance might. Personally I have always set my tooling just above the centre line and then adjusted it as I see fit according to how it is cutting. I had such a problem yesterday when machining some thin 'fishbelly' (damn - language issues again )  links for the Stephenson linkages on a Stuart beam engine I'm refurbishing, it took a while to get exactly the almost perfect cut.  As you said earlier it pays to take time for setting up, sometimes much longer than the actual job in hand.

Best regards
TerryD


----------



## Richard Hed (Sep 20, 2022)

terryd said:


> You are confusing language and vocabulary, the bulk of words in English are of ancient origin even words to describe new technologies such as televison or photogaph are concatenations of more ancient words.  'Language' is a comination of grammar, structure and vocabulary.  Words can accepted from other languages, of course, but they are existing words from the root of the language then absorbed, used and codified into the vocabulary, very, very rarely are real additions just made up.  Slang and vernacular words are generally transient and ephemeral easily lost, for example try finding a 'slubberdegullion' these days.  As I've said elsewhere a discussion of 'Fanny' between a Brit and a Yank would be interesting as there is no common meaning between the two cultures using a supposedly common language. And of course Greek, Latin, French and Engllish are just a few of the languages rooted in the PIE.
> 
> Shortened words (aka abbreviations), change only the spoken language unless otherwise  codified by being accepted into a dictionary etc.
> 
> By the way, we generally spell the word learned but pronounce it learnt as a past participle but learned with annunciation of the final e is applied to one who is well educated or wise i.e. 'he is very learned and he learned his wisdom years ago', one word two pronunciations and two meanings.


Some of what you say I agree with.  Language before the great wars was known to change about 10% per century.  If hyou thimpfks about it, that is quite a lot really.  In that case, however, how could Brit Eng NOT diverge from Amer Eng?  Hell, in the US alone, the SW of USA speakes a lot differently than those from the east coast and even the NW.  Louisiana is known for two centuries to have widely different set of, as you say, vocabulary if not actually structur of the language.  It has to do with the French, African and Amerindian language influences and creolization.  Regionalization and static movements of people contribute.  

Howver, since, and due to partially, the great wars, language change has accelerated and continues to accelerate.  Indeed, since WWI, words have begun to appear that are only indirectly related to former words of the language, e.g. LASER, Snafu, many of the words related to computer usage:  byte, and many more, with increases of technology which never had words before.  And Yes, many words are made up from other languages but others are not.  the word 'hypo' in different technologies has completly different meanings.

I'm curious, does Brit Eng have the word "boondocks" in it?  It is a Philippino word.

PS, I like this discussion  and I don't take what anyone here says acrimoniiously.


----------



## Steamchick (Sep 20, 2022)

Terry, On the subject of the tool cutting point set 5 degeers above the centre of rotation of the workpiece: 
Suppose a 3 to 4 degree clearance on a tool. It will rub at the contact tangent on the workpiece if 5 degrees high. But only start cutting if 5 degrees or more clearance angle. 
Also the rake angle will cage per the 5 degree offset. So a zero angle rake on a tool becomes 5 degrees of rake, a tool selected withe 3 degrees positive rake will become 2 degrees negative rake, a 5 degree negative rake will become 10 degrees working rake, etc.
Sorry. It seems crazy to me.
Can anyone explain? IT's not just a language problem....
K2


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Some of what you say I agree with.  Language before the great wars was known to change about 10% per century.  If hyou thimpfks about it, that is quite a lot really.  In that case, however, how could Brit Eng NOT diverge from Amer Eng?  Hell, in the US alone, the SW of USA speakes a lot differently than those from the east coast and even the NW.  Louisiana is known for two centuries to have widely different set of, as you say, vocabulary if not actually structur of the language.  It has to do with the French, African and Amerindian language influences and creolization.  Regionalization and static movements of people contribute.
> 
> Howver, since, and due to partially, the great wars, language change has accelerated and continues to accelerate.  Indeed, since WWI, words have begun to appear that are only indirectly related to former words of the language, e.g. LASER, Snafu, many of the words related to computer usage:  byte, and many more, with increases of technology which never had words before.  And Yes, many words are made up from other languages but others are not.  the word 'hypo' in different technologies has completly different meanings.
> 
> ...


Hi Richard, 
  no we don't use the term boondocks, we are though aquainted with it from US culture i.e films and songs especially.  You mention the intermixing of languages, English itself is a mongrel language not only was it influenced by Celtic langages but by Latin, (Roman occupation and ecclesiastical use), Anglo Saxon (High German), Scandinavian (Danish, Norwegian and Swedish), Norman French and actual French (our so called imperial system of measures are actualy based of French or other European terms and only fully defined in theh middle of the 19th C. _after_ the establishment of the more logical Metric system) as well as through our vast Empire accross the world.
  Words you mention such as LASER (acronym for Light Amplified Stimulated - something - Radiation), snafu likewise (I'm too polite to explain that acronym), hypo is a Greek word (under) borrowed by the Romans hence hypocaust (underfloor heating) and  Hypochlorite (fixing photographs etc) I think because it is an anion (negatively charged oxygen atom = minus or  'below') also hence hypochondria (below par in health terms) hypothermia (below normal temperature) etc so 'hypo' still has only one meaning it is the cocatenated terms which have different meanings.  Byte is of course an abbreviation of binary digit and most other terms in computing are either derivations of normal words, abbreviations or acromyms and are used for specialised discussion (aka jargon) but some spill over into popular usage but all of these have developed in response to the needs of new technology,
   I would still argue that a 'novice' of the Romans is still a 'novice' today so there is no need to 'make up' a new description when there is a perfectly good, quite well known, more elegant, less ugly existing word which has stood the test of time - I find that ridiculous just as changing the name of a, say, horse (Roman - Hippo, hippopotamus = River Horse, strange imagination those Romans) to say, piglettio    just because you can.
  Glad you've enjoyed the discussion I also try not to take or give acrimony or insult anyone.  You have to love language, it separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom - no let's not start another discussion that's just an observation. 

TerryD


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## terryd (Sep 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Terry, On the subject of the tool cutting point set 5 degeers above the centre of rotation of the workpiece:
> Suppose a 3 to 4 degree clearance on a tool. It will rub at the contact tangent on the workpiece if 5 degrees high. But only start cutting if 5 degrees or more clearance angle.
> Also the rake angle will cage per the 5 degree offset. So a zero angle rake on a tool becomes 5 degrees of rake, a tool selected withe 3 degrees positive rake will become 2 degrees negative rake, a 5 degree negative rake will become 10 degrees working rake, etc.
> Sorry. It seems crazy to me.
> ...


Hi K2,

I think that it's just to take care of the 'spring' in the tool and workpiece - and no matter how 'rigid' e think that is there is always some slight movement in response to the forces involved, so if the tool is forced downwards it presents itself to the work as if it was on centre, at least that's all _I_ can think of.  Having said that as you say trial and error is important but so is a starting point especially for a tyro like John.

Best regards

TerryD


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## william_b_noble (Sep 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> It appears that in this multi-cultural forum we have started to bicker about "language" and pronunciation.
> Surely, we should simply stick to the "Engineering and Machining issues"? - I am an old git who regularly cringes at some of the language used but recognise that mostly the message is truly transmitted - by all who use "English" as the common forum language. Even by those who do not have the fortune to have been raised and educated in "English, as she is spoke" - from 60 years ago - "like what I wus"...
> Personally, I enjoy the language (and associated humour) - old and new - and have now fallen into the trap of discussing a distraction that I would prefer kept off this forum...
> I'll just creep back into my little box and hide in my world of my prejudice...
> K2


Wow, "English as she is spoke"   an amazing book for those with a certain kind of warped sense of humor


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## Richard Hed (Sep 20, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi Richard,
> no we don't use the term boondocks, we are though aquainted with it from US culture i.e films and songs especially.  You mention the intermixing of languages, English itself is a mongrel language not only was it influenced by Celtic langages but by Latin, (Roman occupation and ecclesiastical use), Anglo Saxon (High German), Scandinavian (Danish, Norwegian and Swedish), Norman French and actual French (our so called imperial system of measures are actualy based of French or other European terms and only fully defined in theh middle of the 19th C. _after_ the establishment of the more logical Metric system) as well as through our vast Empire accross the world.
> Words you mention such as LASER (acronym for Light Amplified Stimulated - something - Radiation), snafu likewise (I'm too polite to explain that acronym), hypo is a Greek word (under) borrowed by the Romans hence hypocaust (underfloor heating) and  Hypochlorite (fixing photographs etc) I think because it is an anion (negatively charged oxygen atom = minus or  'below') also hence hypochondria (below par in health terms) hypothermia (below normal temperature) etc so 'hypo' still has only one meaning it is the cocatenated terms which have different meanings.  Byte is of course an abbreviation of binary digit and most other terms in computing are either derivations of normal words, abbreviations or acromyms and are used for specialised discussion (aka jargon) but some spill over into popular usage but all of these have developed in response to the needs of new technology,
> I would still argue that a 'novice' of the Romans is still a 'novice' today so there is no need to 'make up' a new description when there is a perfectly good, quite well known, more elegant, less ugly existing word which has stood the test of time - I find that ridiculous just as changing the name of a, say, horse (Roman - Hippo, hippopotamus = River Horse, strange imagination those Romans) to say, piglettio    just because you can.
> ...


Ah.  Well, doesn't separate us from the animals as much as you might thimpfk.  Animals, indeed, DO have language, we as humans just don't usually uinderstand them.  They even have WRITTEN language.  Some of the language they have is transmitted not by visible symbols but by odor symbols, such as dog and wolf peeing on fyrehydrants and territory marking.  It is legitmate writing.  Bears mark their territory by scratching trees--written language which conveys meaning to other bears or animals who understand.

Also an interesting fact you most likely will be interested in and marvel at like I myself do:  most mamals (if not all) have a certain center in the brain that has a vocabulary size of about 500 words.  Humans use this area for such things as exclaimations,  and naughty words, and also important words such ad "mom", "dad", RUN, HELP.  If learning a foreign language, the easiest words to learn are the naughty ones--have you ever noticed?  These naughty words are stored in this special area.  Regular language in human beans is stored in a different place that has evolved in human brains.  Have no idea if other mamals have a primitive area.  Sometimes a person might have an accident and knock out regular language area but not the primitive one.  TV shows about that.


----------



## Richard Hed (Sep 20, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi K2,
> 
> I think that it's just to take care of the 'spring' in the tool and workpiece - and no matter how 'rigid' e think that is there is always some slight movement in response to the forces involved, so if the tool is forced downwards it presents itself to the work as if it was on centre, at least that's all _I_ can think of.  Having said that as you say trial and error is important but so is a starting point especially for a tyro like John.
> 
> ...


I've known about these settings for the rocker style cutting tool for a while.  I thimpfks that it may be that that particular angle has a relation to that rocker in which the rocker (when I actually used one on an SB I had) will snap out of place if held right at the center line.  It happened to me a lot.  If placed up a bit, it snaps out less often.  I thimpfks it has to do with the angle of attack on the rocker arm.


----------



## Richard Hed (Sep 21, 2022)

terryd said:


> Hi Richard,
> no we don't use the term boondocks, we are though aquainted with it from US culture i.e films and songs especially.  You mention the intermixing of languages, English itself is a mongrel language not only was it influenced by Celtic langages but by Latin, (Roman occupation and ecclesiastical use), Anglo Saxon (High German), Scandinavian (Danish, Norwegian and Swedish), Norman French and actual French (our so called imperial system of measures are actualy based of French or other European terms and only fully defined in theh middle of the 19th C. _after_ the establishment of the more logical Metric system) as well as through our vast Empire accross the world.
> Words you mention such as LASER (acronym for Light Amplified Stimulated - something - Radiation), snafu likewise (I'm too polite to explain that acronym), hypo is a Greek word (under) borrowed by the Romans hence hypocaust (underfloor heating) and  Hypochlorite (fixing photographs etc) I think because it is an anion (negatively charged oxygen atom = minus or  'below') also hence hypochondria (below par in health terms) hypothermia (below normal temperature) etc so 'hypo' still has only one meaning it is the cocatenated terms which have different meanings.  Byte is of course an abbreviation of binary digit and most other terms in computing are either derivations of normal words, abbreviations or acromyms and are used for specialised discussion (aka jargon) but some spill over into popular usage but all of these have developed in response to the needs of new technology,
> I would still argue that a 'novice' of the Romans is still a 'novice' today so there is no need to 'make up' a new description when there is a perfectly good, quite well known, more elegant, less ugly existing word which has stood the test of time - I find that ridiculous just as changing the name of a, say, horse (Roman - Hippo, hippopotamus = River Horse, strange imagination those Romans) to say, piglettio    just because you can.
> ...


The Philippino meaning of boondocks is "mountain".  In the Philippines it does not have the reputation it has in the US.  In the US it is equal to calling someone from the Ozarks, that is, inbred and ignorant.  We also use "the boonies" which is derived from boondox but it simply means out from a far distance in the countryside, maybe difficult to find.


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## Jules (Sep 21, 2022)

Can people please stick to the topic of the thread and not go off on a tangent writing pages and pages about the English language. 
It is hard to pick out replies about the actual subject. 
Start a new topic if you want to discuss other subjects. 
Rant over.


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## HMEL (Sep 21, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> During Viet Nam era, a fresh recruit with no experience in the feild was called a newby for New Boy,. which sometimes was shortened to noob, also.


I know its off topic but had to respond.  I had forgotten about those days and you are very correct. It may well be when and where it was first initiated.


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## Bentwings (Jan 1, 2023)

Carbide insert tools don’t necessarily have razor sharp edges in fact they are rather dull. We used to hone them sharp  however carbide is very brittle so the edges micro chip or crack then you have a messed up tool . This is why many use HSS . Told as you can dress the edges ver sharp and gently radius the cutting to .   Carbide generally requires some depth of cut snd lots of speed . Not to good for light cuts.  Old guys learned to add chip breaker grooves to HSS tools by carefully using something like dremel tool and cut off wheels or air tools you have to have an understanding of how the chip is forming to make these  carefully done you can get away from bird nest  chips . Type of material makes a difference too  leaded steel generally is pretty forgiving but probably not the best for all projects especially if welding is required . I’ve used various spacers to make chip breakers too it’s a tricky way to make chip breakers  but it does work  tool height or position is important  carving 4130 or 4140 with light cuts is tough  stainless can be real tough too  our little 10x 22 lathe works pretty hard on heavier cuts. Everything that slides needs to be set up perfectly  gears make noise  loose or tight . A bad belt in the drive can cause problems  we had a vee belt with broken strands that drove us crazy  a very tight belt drive can cause noise too . Our  10 x22 has a very tight belt  using the stock belt . It ultimately caused bearing failure.  The spindle had very tight press fit bearings   The new spindle required buffing the bearing surfaces to fit properly


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## clockworkcheval (Jan 2, 2023)

For years I have been a staunch supporter of HSS tools, and I still am. But with the arrival of affordable good quality fine diamond grinding wheels it has become possible to grind carbide insert tools with shiny honed sharp cutting edges. So the carbide inserts can be used for delicate turning operations.


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## terryd (Jan 2, 2023)

I too am an officionado of HSS tooling which is relatively cheap, use inexpensive grinding techniques to shape the tools to whatever shape I need and keeps a fine edge under heavy use generally.  once shaped a quick hone with a slipstone and you have a perfect edge once again.

I succumbed to the sirens that are indexible carbide tools once and used them for a while but now they are little more than artractive ornaments for my lathe (as long as I keep then cobweb free!).

Happy new year to all on here


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## Bentwings (Jan 2, 2023)

When inserts came readily available I too though they were gear we had Siam’s wheels so puttin polished sharpness on them was easy however we quickly found they carbide is very brittle and te sharpness broke down easily the worked great on softer materials but any moly steel quickly broke hem down  better inserts became available  so we switched to hem for heavy turning then maybe a sharp tool for final finishing ceramics became available but they were just too expensive for everyday work plus’s if yo dropped the tool you might as well toss th ceramic . I’m not supposed to even be in the shop any more as I don’t see well . I some times get a few minutes on the late or mill but I plan each move carefully and keep my ever present mag glass handy . I sold my tig welder as I just could not do the precision stuff I liked to do.  I YHINK I’m goingvto sleep in today . I got a new electric blanket that is really cozy . It’s a lot cheaper to use e blanket than turn up the heat


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## ajoeiam (Jan 2, 2023)

Bentwings said:


> When inserts came readily available I too though they were gear we had Siam’s wheels so puttin polished sharpness on them was easy however we quickly found they carbide is very brittle and te sharpness broke down easily the worked great on softer materials but any moly steel quickly broke hem down  better inserts became available  so we switched to hem for heavy turning then maybe a sharp tool for final finishing ceramics became available but they were just too expensive for everyday work plus’s if yo dropped the tool you might as well toss th ceramic . I’m not supposed to even be in the shop any more as I don’t see well . I some times get a few minutes on the late or mill but I plan each move carefully and keep my ever present mag glass handy . I sold my tig welder as I just could not do the precision stuff I liked to do.  I YHINK I’m goingvto sleep in today . I got a new electric blanket that is really cozy . It’s a lot cheaper to use e blanket than turn up the heat


I'd suggest a good duvet (or two if necessary) with a cozy flannel cover rather than an electric blanket!!!


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## Shopgeezer (Jan 3, 2023)

No way. There are few things in life better than slipping into a warm bed after the electric blanket has been on for half an hour. Far better than cold shock from the sheets and shivering for half an hour. If I win one of those seats on Starship for an around the moon trip my electric blanket is coming with me.


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## ajoeiam (Jan 4, 2023)

Shopgeezer said:


> No way. There are few things in life better than slipping into a warm bed after the electric blanket has been on for half an hour. Far better than cold shock from the sheets and shivering for half an hour. If I win one of those seats on Starship for an around the moon trip my electric blanket is coming with me.


It is quite clear that you have never used a good duvet. 

This morning our bedroom temperature was 3 C (circa 40 F) at my wakeup. If you suffer from very cold feet at a hot water bottle under the covers when you crawl in. You might want to try a good duvet - - - - its far more comfy than your electric blankie - - - guaranteed!


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## abby (Jan 4, 2023)

I love you guys , the penultimate post before a 3 month break was about going off topic because several posts were discussing the correct use of the English language,
This thread has restarted on it's intended subject and after 3 posts the subject has changed to keeping warm in bed.
I am not complaining by any means , for goodness sake there's 8 pages of replies about tooling so I reckon every member and his dog has put in their four penorth and "oldguy" was probably sorted after the first page.
Anyway on the subject of keeping warm how much gas are you managing to save , my gas/leccy bill for last month is about 25% of my pension and I am hardly using the central heating. My foundry furnace is propane fired and that has increased in price by aroung 300% so no castings at present.
Anyone fancy designing a wood fired boiler that can be easily hooked into an existing central heating system ?
Dan.


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## RM-MN (Jan 4, 2023)

abby said:


> I love you guys , the penultimate post before a 3 month break was about going off topic because several posts were discussing the correct use of the English language,
> This thread has restarted on it's intended subject and after 3 posts the subject has changed to keeping warm in bed.
> I am not complaining by any means , for goodness sake there's 8 pages of replies about tooling so I reckon every member and his dog has put in their four penorth and "oldguy" was probably sorted after the first page.
> Anyway on the subject of keeping warm how much gas are you managing to save , my gas/leccy bill for last month is about 25% of my pension and I am hardly using the central heating. My foundry furnace is propane fired and that has increased in price by aroung 300% so no castings at present.
> ...


I heated my home for years with wood.  One piece of advice for you.  Keep your existing heat.


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## Richard Hed (Jan 4, 2023)

abby said:


> I love you guys , the penultimate post before a 3 month break was about going off topic because several posts were discussing the correct use of the English language,
> This thread has restarted on it's intended subject and after 3 posts the subject has changed to keeping warm in bed.
> I am not complaining by any means , for goodness sake there's 8 pages of replies about tooling so I reckon every member and his dog has put in their four penorth and "oldguy" was probably sorted after the first page.
> Anyway on the subject of keeping warm how much gas are you managing to save , my gas/leccy bill for last month is about 25% of my pension and I am hardly using the central heating. My foundry furnace is propane fired and that has increased in price by aroung 300% so no castings at present.
> ...


THAT, my best Friend (How much money you got?), is one of the reasons I got into steam:  that is, steam can Heat one's house, do your cooking, run your electric, heat your hot water for tea and showers and power your home gattling gun, pucket gun or even a canon if you have a big enough heat source.  However, to do all this properly costs a lot.

RM-MN:  my brother in law in Tacoma uses an enclosed stove to heat his house, a commercial stove, but he has added into it a copper pipe that goes to heat his water--he says it saves him a WHOLE lot of $$.  The stoves burn out after 15-20 years tho'.

PS, I din't even add my 1 bits about which blanket I prefer.  However, I could write a book on this subject.  I use a sheep skin--so hot under it that I have tohave extra water at my bedside to keep hydrated.  Have to take it off once I get warmed up.  I just leave it on my feet as they are always cold without it.


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## HMEL (Jan 4, 2023)

abby said:


> I love you guys , the penultimate post before a 3 month break was about going off topic because several posts were discussing the correct use of the English language,
> This thread has restarted on it's intended subject and after 3 posts the subject has changed to keeping warm in bed.
> I am not complaining by any means , for goodness sake there's 8 pages of replies about tooling so I reckon every member and his dog has put in their four penorth and "oldguy" was probably sorted after the first page.
> Anyway on the subject of keeping warm how much gas are you managing to save , my gas/leccy bill for last month is about 25% of my pension and I am hardly using the central heating. My foundry furnace is propane fired and that has increased in price by aroung 300% so no castings at present.
> ...


Yes, there are at least two I know of in the surrounding area.  However, insurance companies frown on such installations and the approach is to build an outdoor unit and transport the heat into the house via glycol heating or hot air ducts.  I have a cast iron wood burner which is acceptable alternative except I can not install it because of the chimney in this house has to be redone.  Outdoor installation requires space but provides best protection against things such as a chimney fire.  They can be very nasty and a very real danger.  The wood stove was built by a reputable firm and carries a serial number which the insurance company approved.  The chimney they did not.


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## RM-MN (Jan 4, 2023)

Richard Hed said:


> RM-MN: my brother in law in Tacoma uses an enclosed stove to heat his house, a commercial stove, but he has added into it a copper pipe that goes to heat his water--he says it saves him a WHOLE lot of $$. The stoves burn out after 15-20 years tho'.


Tacoma is a whole different place to heat your house than northern Minnesota.  Not only do the stoves (not cheap either) burn out after 15 to 20 years, so does the body.  What I could do with a chainsaw at 30 I can no longer do at 70 and even at 50 my body was telling me to quit heating with wood.


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## MRA (Jan 5, 2023)

abby said:


> I love you guys , the penultimate post before a 3 month break was about going off topic because several posts were discussing the correct use of the English language,
> This thread has restarted on it's intended subject and after 3 posts the subject has changed to keeping warm in bed.
> I am not complaining by any means , for goodness sake there's 8 pages of replies about tooling so I reckon every member and his dog has put in their four penorth and "oldguy" was probably sorted after the first page.
> Anyway on the subject of keeping warm how much gas are you managing to save , my gas/leccy bill for last month is about 25% of my pension and I am hardly using the central heating. My foundry furnace is propane fired and that has increased in price by aroung 300% so no castings at present.
> ...


Hey Dan - I don't think a waste motor oil furnace would suit you (the way I do it) as your stuff turns out consistent and your photos always make your process look really controlled!   
I always look at all the heat leaving the furnace and wonder how I could save some of it.  I don't cast often enough for this to be a real possibility.  I do heat one room with a wood burner, running on scrap pallets and doing much of the chopping up with a cheapo electric chainsaw.  One has to be careful (of course) but it works well enough and is more or less free.


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## abby (Jan 5, 2023)

Thanks for the replies , my post was a bit tongue in cheek!
I was thinking of an outdoor boiler using the wood from some trees we cut down last summer, connecting a useable heat output to my existing indoor radiators is the problem to solve as the hot water would need to travel quite some distance.
An hours melting session leaves the workshop comfortably warm for about 8 hours , thats burning propane.
I can burn diesel (farm fuel) but it does smoke badly until the furnace is hot and waste engine oil is definately not allowed in the UK.
I have neighbours close by so have to keep my operation lowkey.
Dan.


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## clockworkcheval (Jan 6, 2023)

Heating with wood holds my close interest. From age 50 thru 70 I hauled an annual 15-20 tons of oak out of the surrounding woods to feed my large wood/waterstove. The heated water from the waterjacket fed into the floor heating system of my 25 x 100 feet converted farmhouse. The measured wood-to-heat efficiency was about 75-80%. My wife found the beast so ugly that I had to alternate it every summer/winter-season with an ornamental open fire. When burning this actually brought the temperature of the house down. Seven years ago I moved to a high-tech Austrian wood pellet heating system with a measured efficiency of 95-98%. The logistics of fuel handling are now reduced  to a truck which blows twice a year a load of wood pellets into a converted farm-container on the grounds. Back to machinetools: in my workshop I'm installing a much smaller wood/waterstove which heats the water through a spiral above the fire. The heated water feeds into the floor heating of my 12 x 30 feet workshop. The stove eats only 2-3 tons dry oak per year, which this old man can handle. And this floor heating means that my machinetools don't worry any longer about rust and require only a couple of hours early in the morning to reach full operating temperature for precision work. See attached pictures.


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## WisJim (Jan 6, 2023)

I grew up with wood heat and our homes (until the last year) have had wood heat.  Insulation of the building reduces the amount of wood required and is one reason I was able to keep using wood heat into my 70s--that and lightweight electric chainsaws meant that both I and my wife could cut up the firewood.  The last few years, though, before moving to town, we added minisplit heat pumps to our heating system at the farm.
Back to the electric blanket question--we preheated our beds with an electric hair dryer.  It took a minute or so per bed and meant that we crawled into a nice warm bed instead of between cold sheets.  Our body heat kept us comfortable as long as we used the right weight of quilt or blanket.  And flannel sheets make a big difference too.


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