# Flyball governor plans



## Brian Rupnow

Does anyone know of a site with free plans for a flyball governor? Somebody over on the Home Shop Machinist website is looking for a set of FREE plans. I don't have any plans, and although I could design a set, its more cost effective to modify a set of existing plans.---This subject brings up a funny story from my youth.--Read on if interested---

I grew up in the kinder, gentler, far more poverty stricken world of the 1950's. I have a firm belief that it wasn't necessity that was the mother of invention---poverty was. The lack of money created a world of tinkerers and inventors, simply because there was no money to buy the proper tool or machine. An older friend of mine, named Leonard had built a portable buzz saw for cutting firewood. This was basically a 48" diameter circular saw mounted on the chassis of a model A Ford, circa 1930 or 1931. The lengths of wood were lifted onto a tilting carriage, and the carriage was tilted into the saw to cut up lengths of firewood. The saw was driven by a flat belt and pulley arrangement that came from the rear of the old Fords transmission. Now, Leonard had a problem----The old 4 cylinder Ford engine had babbit bearings, so it did not take kindly to prolonged high speed revving. However, if someone didn't open the throttle and give it some gas when the log engaged the saw, the engine would stall. Leonard was a veteran tinkerer, and somehow come into the posession of a set of flyball governors off an old steam train. He mounted them with a belt drive from the Ford engine, and hooked them up to the carburetor with a system of levers and pulleys. The theory was quite simple---under no load conditions the old Ford would set there idling, but as soon as the log engaged the buzz saw, the rpm's would drop off, and the flyball governors would open the throttle automatically. this was a perfectly good working theory!!! The problem was that Leonard somehow got one of his lever arrangements bass ackwards. When the last bolt was tightened, and the last brace welded in place, Leonard went to test his creation. He started the Ford---that part worked perfect. As soon as it started however, the flyballs began to fly outward from centrifugal force, and the farther out they flew, the more the lever mechanism opened the throttle. The engine went from zero to a zillion rpm's in the blink of an eye. Leonard leaped from the drivers seat and raced around the car to pull off the coil wire and shut down the engine---and at the same time the flyball governor self destructed (it too was by then doing a zillion rpm's). One of the steel balls flew and hit poor Leonard directly in the kneecap and broke it into a dozen peices--then the old Ford engine self destucted in a scream of tortured babbit bearings and shattered castings!! Leonard eventually recovered, though he walked with a limp ever afterwards. We all survived the 1950's, but it certainly was a time that gave rise to a lot of interesting stories.---Brian


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## compound driver 2

Hi Brian
Do a search for teh patent covering the Pickering govenor. I have the drawings for a two and a three ball but no way of scanning them. If that fails give the lady at MERL a call I know she has them for about a monkey a shot. I know they post all over the world.


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## Tin Falcon

ICS had a manual on designing them 
http://www.lindsaybks.com/prod/allbks.html
Has the reprint available for about $ 8.00 good book
Tin


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## Brian Rupnow

Here are a couple of pictures that I came up with after a fairly intense internet search. There are a lot of postings about Pickering governors, but I couldn't find a link to the patent drawings, and I couldn't find any clear pictures either. There is a lot of reference made to Watts governor which looks like the same thing to me. One of the links led me to an adverisement for a book called "507 Mechanical Movements" which looked like fascinating fodder for tips on a machine to run with one of my steam engines for exhibit purposes.


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## chuck foster

i just did a quick google patent search and came up with this

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bY...nor&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA1,M1

hope it helps

chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Chuck.


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## steamboatmodel

An interesting expression derives from Flyball Governors "Balls to the Wall". Most people when they here it immediately put their minds in the gutter, but it means running at all out speed.
Regards,
Gerald


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## IronHorse

"The Boy's Book of Engine Building" (Google Books) has a chapter on model engine fittings and there is a section on Governors. Kinda simple stuff but some good ideas.


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## Brass_Machine

steamboatmodel  said:
			
		

> An interesting expression derives from Flyball Governors "Balls to the Wall". Most people when they here it immediately put their minds in the gutter, but it means running at all out speed.
> Regards,
> Gerald



I discovered that a little while ago. I think it was watching a video on Jay Leno's garage and he explained that. I have had a lot of fun explaining it to people.

Eric


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## Maryak

Live and Learn, I always thought it was "Balls Out" which meant maximum speed ???

Regards
Bob


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## compound driver 2

HI
MERL do have all the patents for the Pickering and a few others. The UK patent office also holds many of them. When I started restoring my Marshal I went to MERL for drawings of the cylinder block and the internals of the steam chest. The govenor was one of the drawing sheets that came up. The MERL database is hard work but the woman that runs it is brilliant.


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## Brian Rupnow

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> HI
> MERL do have all the patents for the Pickering and a few others. The UK patent office also holds many of them. When I started restoring my Marshal I went to MERL for drawings of the cylinder block and the internals of the steam chest. The govenor was one of the drawing sheets that came up. The MERL database is hard work but the woman that runs it is brilliant.


What the heck is MERL??? I just did an internet search and there are about 100 different MERLs, ranging from research laboratories to Country and western singers!!!


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## Tin Falcon

According to several internet sources the balls to the wall phrase comes from aviators during WWII pushing the throttles all the way forward or touching the Gage panel. It still means full throttle though.
Tin


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## compound driver 2

Museum of english rural life. its the largest repository of engine drawings and holds the full Fowler collection. All are accesable to the public


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## Maryak

Hey Brian,

Have a look at this, there's maybe enough info to design something similar ???

http://cedesign.net/steam/h9.htm

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow

Thank you, gentlemen. All that you are sending me is a real help.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay!!! Now we have progress. I think I could build this---


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## tel

I'm not getting your picture here Brian. Somewhere tho', I have some drawings for a working governor - I'll see if I can winkle 'em out


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## Brian Rupnow

tel  said:
			
		

> I'm not getting your picture here Brian. Somewhere tho', I have some drawings for a working governor - I'll see if I can winkle 'em out



Tel--I'm not sure why you're not getting the picture--Its pasted in from photobucket same as all my other pics. If you have some plans, that would be great.--thanks----Brian


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## tel

Dunno either, but I'm getting it now. I'll hunt out wot I have later in the day - when I can get into the workshop without waking the _sleeping dragon_.

Here's one I made from the dwgs - but the body has been modified (read totally changed)


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel--Absolutely loverly!!!!


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## CrewCab

tel  said:
			
		

> the _sleeping dragon_.



Is that the one in the coolant tank Tel 

CC


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## Maryak

Tel,

Keep meaning to say what a great governor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





How big is it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




And how did you cut the bevel gears 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


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## tel

That reminds me, I forgot all about digging out the drawings. To give you an idea, the bevel gears are about 3/8" diameter, and yes, I cut them on the Myford - hand planing with the topslide


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel--If you can drag the drawings out and post them or email them to me, that would be just great. What kind of steam/air supply valve did it operate??--a sliding valve or a butterfly valve. Did you find that it was effective and actually governed the speed of what you were running with it?---Brian


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## SignalFailure

tel  said:
			
		

> That reminds me, I forgot all about digging out the drawings. To give you an idea, the bevel gears are about 3/8" diameter, and yes, I cut them on the Myford - hand planing with the topslide



Argghh the dreaded gears - my hands have only just recovered! ;D


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## RonGinger

Brian, please tell me where you found the dimensioned drawing of the governor.

There is a story here- I have that drawing somewhere in one of my books. When I was doing the first show flyer for the New England Model Engineering Society  [url]www.neme-s.org [/url] I found it, scanned it, and used it in the flyer. It later became essentialy the logo of the club- its on our Shirts, our show banners, newsletter and Ive even made engraved name plates several of us use at shows.

I want to make a model of it, but I can only find the scanned drawing, from which I stripped the dimensions to make it simpler for the logo.


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## dsquire

Ron

Thanks for posting the link to www.neme-s.org. I have been over there for several hours and I know that I have barely scratched the surface. Steam, all types of engines and tractors, machinery, antique tools, Jet model aircraft any many many more. If anybody hasn't clicked on it yet I would advise them to if they like that type of thing and I think most on this forum do. I know that I have book marked it so that I can go back.

Thanks again Ron

cheers

Don


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel---A question for you. Did you find the flyball governor which you built to be effective in governing the speed of the engine which you put it on. And--how many cylinders was the engine it was controlling, and what bore and stroke?--A lot of questions I know, but stuff I need to know before I embark on a build if I make one of these for myself. Thanks, Brian


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## tel

Well, yes, the governor worked quite well, but as I said, I did simplify the innards of it - just a simple plug moving up & down in a bore and covering, uncovering, the steam passage. 

The engine in question is Jesse Livingston's Rocking Valve Mill Engine - 1" bore, 1 1/8" stroke - the cylinder on the is quite a compliacted piece, and was a lot trickier to fabricate - still, the finished product was well worth the effort.

Here's a couple of pics before and after silver soldering the fabrication, but befor clean up. Them porcupine quills are little bits of 1/16" brazing rod that were used to hols everything together and got cut off and disappeared during clean up.

Bottom pic is the complete engine


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Terry.---Brian


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## tel

While we're on the subject of working governors - here's another one I did, copied from an old illustration (engraving) of the Ames Automatic Cut Off Engine - it also worked a treat.


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## tel

.... and the engine it operates






at speed!


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## Brian Rupnow

Look what I found!!! This is a casting kit by Art Dekalb in New York. It comes in two sizes, one with 3/8" balls and one with 1/2" balls. of course the one in the picture has been fully finished, but Art only sells the castings, apparently. I am currently wheeling and dealing with him, trying to get price and delivery.---Brian


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## tel

Now that is interesting! I shall be watching for the results of your enquiries with _bated_  breath.


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## Brian Rupnow

I've been thinkin'---And thats a VERY dangerous thing---As Granny used to say---"Idle hands are the Devils workshop"---


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## Brian Rupnow

Very Dangerous---


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## tel

You got it Brian - 'cept you didn't show the spring!

Now picture the end of the spindle carrying a piston of slightly larger diameter, working in a bore to cover the steam inlet as it descends from the action of the balls. Much simpler than the version I sent you, and the way I did mine.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel---I didn't forget the spring.--Its just that springs are a miserable thing to model. I just got an email from the guy in New york. His "Kit" sells for $20.00 U.S. plus $4.50 handling. Seems like a reasonable deal to me. He said that they come complete with sets of drawings. I don't see the brass balls in his "Kit" and I guess the shaft and gears aren't there either. If I don't have any real work tomorrow (which isn't looking too probable) I will go ahead and finish my design. I have a design here for the governor used on a Stewart model, which has no gears, just a pulley on the bottom of the ball bracket. It is driven by a 90 degree twisted belt off the main driveshaft, which would be ideal to work with my horizontal twin that I just finished.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel--Only for you, I put the spring in--- ;D ;D


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## Brian Rupnow

This is kinda what I had in mind (no valve yet).--The 2 red cylinders are 3/8" sealed ball bearings


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## tel

_Tel--Only for you, I put the spring in_ ;D

There's no reason that shouldn't work - just make sure your belt pulleys increase the speed at the governor by at least 3:1. AND you get away from cutting the dreaded bevel gears.


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## tel

Now the innards of the valve section should look something like this - lousy drawing, I know, but I can't be good at _everything_ 






And, after pondering those castings - here's about 5 mins worth of roughing out on a valve body. they'd be quicker and easier to build from scratch, I feel.


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay Tel--There we go--Valve block added, pulleys changed to give 2.5:1 ratio---The slightly larger balls (1/2") will compensate for the ratio not being 3:1


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## tel

Now yer cookin' mate! The 2.5:1 ratio will probably be quite ok, especially with the heavier balls. Just don't be tempted to make 'em out of aluminium


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## mklotz

Color me clueless but, if this is going to be a working governor (as opposed to purely decorative), won't you need a means of adjusting the spring preload so you can set the speed at which the engine runs?


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## tel

A bit of trial and error with a small pair of side cutters does that part nicely Marv.


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## potman

Cool addition to your engine Brian. Really adds to the mechanics but, I see a potential problem...

In your drawing it looks like the belt is coming off the governor pulley at quite a steep angle. It may not want to stay on the pulley. Perhaps an idler pulley or belt guides or something might be in order.

BTW: I really appreciate the effort you have gone through to share this design and build with us. I know it's took a lot of extra work and I thank you for it.


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## Brian Rupnow

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Color me clueless but, if this is going to be a working governor (as opposed to purely decorative), won't you need a means of adjusting the spring preload so you can set the speed at which the engine runs?


You make a very good point Marv. Its just that at this stage of the game, I'm not certain how I would go about doing that.--However--If you would like to share some wisdom, I'm listening----Brian


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## jack404

Brian  

if its any help 

a real governor near me on a traction engine has a threaded shaft with a ball on top and a small lock nut ( very thin) under the ball to adjust it they loosen the thin lock nut and turn the ball on the thread up or down to suit.

maybe this can be scaled to fit your model  , i dunno 

this is from a 1909 herculese traction engine thats in the museum near me 

cheers

jack


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## tel

To quote H.Muncaster, in his 1912 treatise on Model Stationary Engines - 

_.... the governor is fitted with a spring. This can be made to give the required power, within reason. It will be best to make a trial with springs of various strengths ....._

In essence, experiment with springs of various length and wire gauge until you get a pleasing output speed at the engine. It is not as if the governor on the model can serve it's 'real' purpose of preventing the engine from over-running and shattering itself to flinders - 99% of it's function will be decorative, as the speed can more readily be controlled by the use of the steam valve, or shutoff. The couple of 'working' governors I have made have worked - that is, you can open the steam valve right up and still have the engine running at a sensible speed, however, in our sizes, this achieves little, other than to look really impressive when the thing is running.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel---You bring up a very good point. I have nothing to compare this to other than experimenting with the engines I have built in the past year. I know that when I turn my pressure regulater down very low, (6 to 10 PSI) my engines will run very slowly and quietly, but they have very little power and can be "stalled" by finger pressure against the flywheel. If I crank the regulator higher, the engines have proportionally more power, but tend to rev their guts out, to the point where I am afraid they will "throw a rod". Where am I ultimately going with my quest??? Well, I would like to use my horizontal twin engine to run SOMETHING which presents a variable repeating load. When there is low load, I want the engine to run at a fairly constant, "medium" speed. Any load at all will slow these engines down considerably, so I would probably run 30 PSI, but the throttle restrictor valve (part of the governor mechanism) would restrict the FLOW so that the engine wouldn't "run away". In this state, the governor would be "balls out". When the load on the engine begins to increase, the engine will slow down, the balls will begin to take a "balls in" attitude, and this will cause the throttle restrictor mechanism to open, thus supplying a greater flow of air to the engine, thus making it speed up to a point where the balls fly "out" again and restore the speed back to my "medium" speed that I want to achieve as a constant. I layed in bed last night trying to visualize all of the sequences involved here. It seems that when starting one of these engines controlled by a governor, they would immediately rev up untill the balls flew "out" and restricted the flow to keep them from running away. I am doing some preliminary design "imagineering" where the engine belt drives a Geneva mechanism with a fairly massive ratio thru an o-ring drive. When only the constant revolving portion of the Geneva mechanisn was revolving, that would be the "low load" scenario. When the constant revolving portion of the Geneva mechanism engages the star wheel to turn it, I would have a friction brake on the star wheel portion of the Geneva mechanism , and this would be the 'high load" scenario. It would be nice to have a sensitive enough governor that you would be able to see it function and see the effect it has on the engine as it cycles through repeated revolutions of the star wheel.


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## Maryak

Brian,

With the scenario you are describing and using a flyball governor, I have a gut feel that what will be achieved is strong "hunting" of the governor mechanism, out of sync with the Geneva mechanism. These types of governors are not designed to cope with rapidly changing loads due to the inertia inherent in the system. : :

Sorry mate, I hope I haven't put a damper on things and I hope I am wrong.  

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow

If you ever wondered how a Muncaster flyball governor worked, they were a bit different. There was a pivot point right at the balls themselves, and when the balls flew out under centrifugal force the sliding yoke at the bottom moved quite a lot--about 5/8" on this unit, which has 1/2" diameter balls on it. This was originally designed, by Muncaster, I assume, to work on model steam engines. The lever would pivot as shown, and a control rod ran from it to a butterfly valve which opened and shut to turn the steam supply on and off. I find that by by modelling these things, it gives me a much better understanding of exactly how they work. My information for modeling this governor came from an article published in 1957 in "Model Engineer".


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## Brian Rupnow

There are some great pictures available of a "Silver Angel" hit and miss engine, and it shows the flyball governor which moves a lever to hold the exhaust valve open so that the engine will not fire untill it slows down a bit and the govenor will collapse and allow the exhaust valve to close, thus causing compression so that it will fire.


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## Stan

Brian: It sounds like you want to get into engine design is a serious way. You have to know the load before you design the engine. Big bore - short stroke for quick response and small bore - long stroke for high torque. Then you design the flywheels to work with the pistons. 

At this stage, to compensate for small changes in load, just increase the flywheel weight. The governor is just to hold the speed over the average load.


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## tel

Here's an interesting, and to my mind practical, variant of the Muncaster - one that screws directly to the end of the crankshaft.


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