# Whittle Aero V8 WIP



## cobra428

Hi Guys,
Well, I made my decision on the next build. The H/M is running good and is ready for the bling. So while a wait for the paint to dry I will get back into making chips mode. This build will not be like jumping into the deep end but more like junping from a 20ft tower into a kiddy pool head first :big: But, I want to give it a shot ;D

From the Hemmingway site
The V8 Aero Engine V8
This elegant V8 won ME Magazine's coveted Gold Medal
at the 1995 Olympia Exhibition. A truly magnificent
project yielding a 10.6cc 4 stoke glow plug engine that is
guaranteed to turn heads wherever it is displayed or
flown!
Recreating an aero-engine layout that was popular in the
1920's, Eric Whittle's masterpiece closely resembles the
Airdisco (Air Disposal Co.) 120 and 200 hp units used by
Sir Geoffrey de Havilland in the DH51.
The engine will swing a Ø12" x 6" propeller at 7,000 rpm
yet idles smoothly at 2,500rpm. The engine is just 4½"
long with an overall weight of 15oz! With a 90º V8 layout
using overhead valves actuated by push rods, the engine's
bore x stroke = Ø0.460 x ½". Mr. Whittle states that this is
a straightforward engine to build, requiring no special
skills or equipment. What is required however is patience!
The award winning engine took 6 months to complete
and contains a total of 550 components. Fancy a challenge?







So there it is. Hopfully mine will look the same!

Tony


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## RobWilson

hi Tony , that looks a great engine to build ;D
Rob


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## roadrage17

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

That looks like an amazing engine. 

Keeps us updated on your progress. And plent of Pics plss 

Best regards 

RR17


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## Maryak

Tony,

All I can say is WOW :bow: I am looking forward to your build.

Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428

Thanks Guys,
Pics will be flowing! This will be my first full build on HMEM. I got here late and at the end of the H/M build.
Can't wait to go on this ride ;D
Tony


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## cobra428

Here come the pics!

The Kit..... I can see a V8 in there. Can't you :big:






This is it, the official ground breaking :big:






Back to taking the H/M apart for a long soak

More to come on the V8 tomorrow!

Tony


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## RobWilson

This Will be one to keep my eye on an add to my favorites list.
Regards Rob


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## roadrage17

Are there any castings to this engine? Or is it all bar stock, 

RR17

EDIT: Just looked on the site and there are no castings , Got to keep tabs on this

Best regards RR17


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## steamer

Cutting the first pieces is both exciting and daunting.....but your off to a good start!

I'm looking forward to this build!

Dave


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## jthulin

Wow, too cool 

I will be watching this one!


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## cobra428

Well tonight I've been a bizzy boy. Paint on the H&M and the start of the upper crankcase of the V8.

So here's some pic's of the V8 build 

Face and debur side one





Second side faced and sized 2.850 mine 2.855 (room for polishing)





First top of block cut (flycutter looks like it should be making tunnels in mountains)





Finished 1st cut





Set up for second cut





Second cut done





Hope I got it right





Well that's it for tonight

Tony


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## Maryak

Tony,

Very Nice. :bow:

You may find it easier when you machine round to square to put a smallish Vee Block between the moving jaw and the round section. It helps to hold the flat evenly against the fixed jaw and copes with any tendency of the moving jaw to lift.

Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428

Thanks Bob,
It did take me a while to get the flat to lay "flat"
Tony


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## putputman

Cobra428, it didn't really dawn on me how small this engine really is until I saw the size of the upper crankcase block. I then went back and read your intro again. 4-1/2 long. 
This is going to be a very interesting build to watch. Keep the good photos coming.


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## cobra428

Putputman,
These are the "big" parts I'm doing first. Should get real interesting when it comes to the small stuff :big:
Like everything else in the engine scratch.gif
Tony


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## roadrage17

Good Start Cobra , keep the pics up were all loving it ;D 
Keep it up!

Best reagards 

RR17


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## stevehuckss396

I am loving this thread!! 

One question? Is it going to be blue with the distributor in the front?

Best of luck on this one and dont forget to make two of everything so you will have something to send me for christmas!


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## RobWilson

Hi Tony will the engine be going in one of your planes when built?
Rob


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## cobra428

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm thinking about putting it on a plane. I think I would be to scared of planting it though. I haven't crashed a plane in a long time but....... you never know (strike the last remark..the second you say something like that....). The engine is usually the first to find the ground :big:
It would go in this plane (~ 40" wing span)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_DH.51

Steve No distrib.....Nitro Burner (glow fuel) Only George B could make a distrib that small ;D

Somemore pic's of tonight's endeavors, Tomorrow the lower half











Hoping for 3 in 1 to sponsor me Rof}
















Laser Targeting good gizzmo ($$ but pulled my butt out of a bad spot many times)
















1.500 on the print 1.502 on the dial






Got thru tonight OK :big: Now for a nice quiet eve with Dykem and a surface gauge!

Tony


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## gilessim

Nice work there Tony,can't wait to see the progress and see it running!, interestingly enough, my grandfather, Philip Brown, was for some years, a curator of the shuttleworth collection and worked for a time before with Frank Whittle on the supermarine spitfire, he passed away around 1971, his father was Mr. Brown of "Brown and May" of Devises UK if you google them, there are still 30 or so of their engines still working around the world!

Giles


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## cobra428

gilessim,
Supermarine Spitfire and the P-51's had a Merlin if my memory serves me right, Now, theres another engine to do. V-12 oh boy. To many engines, so little time :big:
Tony


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## Maryak

When I was an apprentice our aviation apprentices had RR Merlins from WWII Seafires they used to play with. Still remember the wonderful sound of these.

Best Regards
Bob


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## gjn

Too true Bob, they ran up the Merlin at the Aircraft Museum down at the Port a few weeks ago. I was standing less than 20 feet from the open exhaust ports - ears rang for hours afterwards but it was worth it........Rgds - Gavin


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## cobra428

Hi Guys
Got $4000, here you go

http://dynamotive.netfirms.com/merlin/

Man I wish I could do it
Tony


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## steamer

Nice looking build! Looking forward to it!

Dave


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## cobra428

Well, got a little more done. Lower crankcase ruffed out. I wanted to drill and tap the joining of the upper and lower next. This way if I break a tap (1-72) I wouldn't have so much time into the part to remake it. It seems that EW (Eric Whittle) left out some info on the plans and in the Mag article. He thinned out the cases that to me seems like there is no "meat" to tap into. I did a fast look at the crank size and the interior of the case and there is gobs of room. He only has 6 screws holding the bottom to the top? Most engines of that era had a bolt just about every inch (silicon had not been invented yet). I searched the web for the Airdisco engine and the Air Disposal Co (whats up with that name? don't belong in aviation) But no hit on a pic or info. So if any of you surfers can help me...well appreciated :bow:.

Gail in NM you got any notes on this one?

Well anyway some pic's of Tonight's work

Mating surface with the upper






Ruffing the sides





Cutting bottom to size





.920 on the plans .922 on the dial





1.500 on the plans 1.504 on the dial










Fly cutter got a work out tonight
Dam! Have I been lucky so far.......no... no... I meant to say dam I'm good Rof}
Tony


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## Maryak

Tony,

Nice work, :bow: I hope to be brave enough to tackle a multi cylinder one day. 

Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428

Bob,
Don't know if it's bravery or stupidity yet. Let you know soon :big:
Tony


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## GailInNM

Very good start Tony. Thm:

I have been following you thread since you started it, but I had an out of town model engineer guest here for a week and had not had time to respond. 

Regards the screws holding the top and bottom of the crankcase together I used six 0-80 screws. I don't have any information on what the full scale would have had. I think that they are quite adequate as mostly they will be keeping a seal between the top and bottom sections. Most of the stress between the top and bottom sections will be taken by the bearing mount and the gearbox and they have lots of screws. Even then that will be mostly just to keep things a little stiffer as the crankshaft loads will all be to the top section through the gearbox, bearing mount, and center bearing.

Maybe I will get back on mine in a little while. Besides the crankcase, gearbox and front bearing mount, I only have about another 30 or so small parts made. Since our initial contact, I did get the steel for the crankshaft and have most of the other materials on hand. About a month ago I did make up the turning fixtures for the crankshaft as I plan to do it a bit differently than EW did to suit my machinery a little bit better. 

Even if I started back on it now,which is not going to happen, I would wager that you will be finished first. I am only a little bit ahead of you and that won't last. 

Gail in NM,USA


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## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
I'm still working on my hit and miss (paint and bling) and my head hasn't got the 0-80 screw size fully set in. I ordered cap screws 0-80, 1-72 and 2-56's from Micro Fastener the other day. Maybe, when I have them sitting in front of me I'll have a better mental pic
Tony


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## cobra428

Well, it's been 2 months since I played with this baby. Blinging the H/M took longer than I thought. That last 5% takes 90% of the time. 
Anyway had to start to make this thread respectable again. (it was almost on page 5). Time to float it back to the top.
So here's some pics of side one of the lower crankcase (oil pan) being carved out.

17-1/2 deg. or 72-1/2 (Luv that protractor)










Did most of the "hogging" with a 3/8 end mill first (forgot to take pic)















Back to the shop for the other side
Gave it a bead blast, I couldn't tell what it looked like with all the glare
How do I clean up those "ridges" at the radii transition sandpaper? 220 320 400

Tony


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## NOI53Y

I wish I hadn't seen this. Now I want you to hurry up so I can see it progress. Speed up my good man ;D ;D ;D

Seriuosly though it is looking good and i can't wait to see more ;D


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## cobra428

NOI53Y,
Take it easy on me baby :big:
I'm going the fastest I can. She's a beauty, I don't want to mess her up stickpoke
I'm working on the other side as we speak, did the set up and a few cuts
Glad you are enjoying it, because I am too, can't wait to hear the purr.
Just curious NOI53Y (November Zero one fifer tree Yankee) looks like an aircraft # Got Plane?
Tony


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## vlmarshall

That's no tail number, he's just "Noisey". ;D

Build's looking good!


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## cobra428

Vernon.
Thanks for the complement and the info.
I live on Long Island NY I see more "Vanity Plates" on cars that make no sense while stuck in traffic. Should have known NOISEY Rof} Rof} Rof}. Being an ex pilot what the heck else would I think
Tony


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## NOI53Y

Rof} Rof} Rof}

Yeah it's stands for noisey like Vernon said. Back when I was a little younger I was big into car audio and they were my number plates. Well they still are. Lots of people know me as noisey but my real name is Glenn ;D


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## cobra428

Well Glad to meet ya NOI53Y
Tony


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## cobra428

Well this is all I have to show for tonight's effort






Little OPPS on the fron center fin,,,,but that will go away soon
Lower crankcase added fins and breather hole

Tony


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## NOI53Y

Cobra you knwo how to get a man excited :bow: :bow: :bow:


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## GailInNM

Looks grrrrrreat Tony.
You sure work faster than I do.
Gail in NM


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## wmf138

man if I was half as good as your work I would be proud

Wayne


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## cobra428

NOI53Y, GailInNM, wmf138,
Thanks Guys :bow:

I've been :wall: :shrug: scratch.gif on how to do the front large radius that in the side view tappers. Rotor table angled and part standing on end. Or good ole mister file :shrug:

Tony


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## Maryak

Tony,

I love your fins. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428

Thanks Bob,
Tonight, I'm going to try to work out the "how to cut an angular radius" (front of crancasae)

Tony


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## RobWilson

very nice Tony :bow: :bow: :bow:

Regards Rob


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## cobra428

Thanks Rob :bow:

Well another installment of the lower crankcase

The Set up......2 hours....I knew I wasn't crazy for buying that vise





The cut.....2 min





Oh man...I actually did it





Outside Done....just some filing of the sharp edges





I might actually build this engine....the fun stuff is yet to come ...crank and camshaft scratch.gif

Tony


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## rake60

cobra428  said:
			
		

> The Set up......2 hours....I knew I wasn't crazy for buying that vise



Looking GREAT Tony!

On your "set up" time....
Machining is 80% Set Up - 10% Cutting - 6% Machine Maintenance
and 4% Clean Up.

I'd say you are right on schedule.  

Rick


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## cobra428

Hey Thanks Rick, :bow:
Yeh, I know, set up is where it all happens. When I was a kid doing wood working with my dad I learned that.
Tony


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## NOI53Y

Looking good.

Just from an engineering perspective is that angled/beveled cut necessary or is it more for aesthetics.


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## cobra428

Thanks NOI53Y :bow:,
I don't know about the bevel thing to give you an honest answer. It's on the drawing so I put it in. I did find a place that had pics of the real engine.....know what.... in the 5 pics ....there is no view of that. And EW took some "artistic license" with his model.

Tony


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## zeeprogrammer

Wow. Got caught here and had to read the entire thread.
Darn it. Another great thread taking away from my machining time.
Really beautiful work Tony. I hope it's less than 6 months though...for my sake.


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## cobra428

Thanks Zee :bow:
Are you talking about the 6 mons EW took to make it? If so, you're looking at a lot longer than that my friend :big:
Tony


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## cobra428

Well this mornings effort
Top crankcase flanges cut drill and c'bore bottom crankcase drilled and taped
Let me tell you I was sweat-in taping those 0-80's...love to get hex head in there...we'll see











I will cut those screws down! next step cut out the insides of both

Tony


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## cobra428

Well today's final installment on "how to Whittle" :big:

Hog-in out the lower crankcase






Clean her up a bit






Side 2






Now for the fine work.....bring it to spec
Man do I hve SWARF to clen up
Tony


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## deere_x475guy

Cobra, very interesting project and a great read so far. I am looking forward to seeing more as I am sure the rest are.


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## cobra428

deere_x475guy.
Thank you very much :bow:
I am pushing myself with this one. We'll see what happens.....so far ....so good
Tony


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## Deanofid

You've sure made a great start, Tony. 
I never thought I'd say this to another guy, but, that sure is a pretty oil pan.
Keep up the good work!

Dean


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## cobra428

Deanofid,
Thanks Man, :bow:
I've been wanting to call it an oil pan but I'm afraid I'll confuse the Ozzie's and the Brit's Rof}
Tony


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## Jones

What's an oil pan?

That's a nice sump you made there :big:


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## vlmarshall

Jones  said:
			
		

> That's a nice *sump* you made there



See? I'm not the only one!
 (not mentioning who I'm talking to here... he knows who he is. ;D )


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## Maryak

cobra428  said:
			
		

> I've been wanting to call it an oil pan but I'm afraid I'll confuse the Ozzie's and the Brit's Rof}



I thought an oil pan was a Texan geologist :

Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428

Ya see Bob,
This is a classic case of the language barrier we in the US have with the non-english speaking countries

Texan geologist is a "Dip Stick"

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

Tony


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## Maryak

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Texan geologist is a "Dip Stick"
> 
> Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}



BRILLIANT - :bow: :bow: - (also the Russian word for diamond).

I was reading an article where the compilers of the Oxford English Dictionary now believe that American English is the least contaminated by other languages English. However they do allow for the fact that the spelling leaves something to be desired.

Great oil pan, sump, crankcase. :bow: Cant' wait to see the dip stick. :

Build on.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Deanofid

I guess this just goes to prove what that one chap said. Something like "American and England are two countries separated by a common language". I'm sure that could include many others. Australia, NZ, Canada, etc. We understand each other just fine, except for the details...



Dean


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## mklotz

Considering the time and distance separation between UK, USA/Canada and OZ/NZ, it's more astounding that the languages remain as similar as they do. It's testimony to the effectiveness of communications (letter, newspaper, telegraph, radio and now internet) in preserving the understandability of the various dialects. Were it not for this constant flow of communication, we wouldn't be able to understand each other despite the common heritage.

It also helps that English has a fanatical hunger for new words.* We're conditioned to pick up any nuance that floats across our sights. Calling a trunk a boot is just so intellectually delicious that we want to remember it along with all the other variants that we encounter. Where some languages create committees to preserve purity (think Acadamie Francaise), we enjoy mixing everything up into a verbal mulligatawny (itself a word cribbed from the Indians IIRC).

----------------------

*The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.


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## wmf138

I used to work with a guy that spoke pidgon english now that was fun 

Wayne


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## BMyers

Very nice.
Some men watch porn, i watch engine builds


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## Weldsol

BMyers  said:
			
		

> Very nice.
> Some men watch porn, i watch engine builds



Hey what ever turns your crank ;D


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## cobra428

SSSSSSSShirt....Started to get the inside of the lower crankcase into spec. 1/8 and .142 walls +.003 everything looking good. Or so I thought







I knew it was close, I was praying that I wouldn't "breakout" but....






The other end












You can see in the drawing, how close it gets next one .125 cut back wall go to .09
Oh well try again I must
Tony


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## steamer

Tony,

Could a touch of weld and cleanup take care of that?

I hope it does.....Looks great!

Dave


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## zeeprogrammer

Noooooo! You did what I would have done. Well no...mine would have been much worse.
Very sorry about that. Keep at it. In spite of the boo-boo...great stuff.


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## deere_x475guy

Cobra, that tiny hole can be tiged really quickly. Do you know someone locally that can help you out with that?


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## vlmarshall

Ugh! Yeah, get it TIG'd and try again. :-\ It won't show up, unless you're anodizing the part when it's finished.


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## Deanofid

Oh no. Sorry to see this Tony. I think I'd find a reason to put a tiny cap screw there. Tell people that it holds the all important frazit valve inside the engine.


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## cobra428

steamer and deere_x475guy and Vernon
Cobra, that tiny hole can be tiged really quickly

that's true....I'll have to look in the phone book....good idea!

zeep
Noooooo!

my words exactly.....but I elaborated with a few choice more after that :big:

Thanks for the interest guys
I just came back to the computer after diging through my pile of bitts I have a piece of 6061-T6 that will work but now I'm liking the weld thing. I was starting to think about a "drain plug" Rof}

Tony
Deanofid you where posting as I was ...we think alike


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## cobra428

You know guys, I didn't mind making this part or having to make it over (right) :rant: Though lot of good set ups and cuts
This is the part I hate.....the shop was spotless when I started this part....now I have to clean all this up again to make the same part 
















Just thinking to myself....If I weld the hole.....when I run the engine (hopfully) will the crankcase pressure blow anther hole in a different corner ??? And then again .... and again. I'll be able to drain spaghetti in it Rof}

I need to think about this :wall: what is my pain threshold ???

Tony


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## cobra428

Well, I called a welder near my job and Monday I'll bring it over to him to take a look see. I explained the size of the piece, we'll see. Fingers and toe will be crossed
Tony


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## bearcar1

Best of luck to ya's Ton'. A good welder should be able to close up that hole. If there are any other places that have you concerned he also could build up those area as well. 

BC1
Jim


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## cobra428

Hey BC1
yeh I'm going to have him put a bead on the other end too. Then.....this time.....I'll play it smart and use a larger radius end mill to round off the corners.
Tony


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## Krown Kustoms

Sorry to see that, it still looks good even with an unplanned dipstick bung, not to scare you but Al is hard to TIG, especially that thin, I can TIG two razor blades together, but when it comes to non-ferous I make a mess of things. I would tell your welder of choice he should weld two soda cans together as a demonstration to see his competence at thin Al.
(maybe that's just me being picky) 
-B-


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## cobra428

-B-
I'll take a shot.....what the heck. He's going to look at it and let me know. Worst case....I start working on the 6061 round stock. Maybe, this time I'll learn. There are somethings on the prints.....I ask myself.......what, why???? For instance, the center web of the upper crankcase is .150 thick the bearing cap .175 thick (space on crank journal .180)???? I'll make it .175 to match cap and fit the crank, I can always make it smaller later on if needed. I'm a thinking this engine is about to be re-engineered a bit

Tony


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## GailInNM

Tony,
Sorry about the boo boo.  :'(
I know haw much work goes into that part.

On the TIG welding, you are no worse off than if you just start over and make a new part. If the TIG works you are ahead, but if it does not then most of what it will have cost you will be a day or two of time waiting to get it done.

From following your other threads, I know you have the perseverance to make it ultimately work the way you want it to.

Gail in NM


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## Krown Kustoms

I agree with Gail, in the long run you might be a day or two behind, keep up the good work I cant wait to see more.
-B-


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## cobra428

Gail and -B-,
On my drive home from work today I was scratch.gif scratch.gif scratch.gif
You guys are right.....Time to make another....after all I do like to machine
But not the same part twice but :shrug: it's better this way

Thanks for confirming my thoughts!

Tony


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## bearcar1

Hey Tony, as far as fixing goes, you could have the welder weld in a patch to the inside of the pan, this would give a bit more thickness to the area that could then be removed after the fix is complete. He could also puddle the hole then a lot easier. 

$.02


BC1
Jim


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## cobra428

Face the Music and DANCE BABY
Here we go again
I'll save you the Pics of the setups again
But this time it will be Diff






Tony


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## GailInNM

I can tell that it's going to be a LONG weekend. ;D

Actually what I was trying to say, not very well, was that you should probably try to fix the old one, and if it did not work you would not be out anything. But, you are probably making the right choice in starting over. 

Gail in NM


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## cobra428

Gail'
Love ya budy....I always knew this was the way to go.....just counld'nt fess up... for a while....I will do it now

Thanks 
Tony


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## bearcar1

Aw C'mon now. Do you really want to go through all of *that* again? Make an attempt to repair the old part and if it doesn't work out, THEN go for the re-start. 

BC1
Jim


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## cobra428

Jim
I'm Not a hack job guy. Yeah I know ....weld.....Maybe...... But I'm not that kind of guy. F it.. lets do it over and have it right. I'm not playing with it anymore. It's not worth my time to to try and save it for 40 hrs or just remake it it in 30. Sorry Jim, I'm just an A hole. 
 Please forgive me.
Love to Machine
Love to machine it right
Call me an A hole....Still love ya buddy
It's time ....Face The Music and Dance
Tony


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## bearcar1

Naw, you're not an AH, quite the contrary Thm:. My thought was merely to save you some time and material but obviously I was wrong :wall:. Sorry man, just trying to help. It'll be fun seeing the piece being carved out anyway. Pictures. You know what I'm talkin' about th_rulze, we want lots and lots of pictures th_wwp

BC1
Jim


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## gbritnell

I was at a motorcycling event over the summer. One of the vendors had a setup showing how to weld/braze with aluminum rod. I know how to TIG weld aluminum and the problems that go along with it so when I walked by the booth I thought "yeah sure".
As I spent an extra second or two looking the seller said "come on over and I'll show you how to use it". He had various pop cans, pieces of flat stock and some old motorcycle engine casting on his table. The first thing he had me do was to weld an aluminum soda/pop can. He poked a hole in the bottom of it with a screw driver and then proceeded to show me how to weld it. He took a stainless brush and scratched the area around the hole and then with a propane torch started heating the area around the hole. As he played the heat on the can he rubbed the end of the rod onto the can until it started to 'tin'. He worked in a circular motion and to my amazement the hole was welded over, on a pop can mind you. Next it was my turn, with the same results. He then took a blunt punch and pounded on the welded area only to have the can rip in another spot but not on the weld. OK now I'm interested. Next up he took two pieces of about 1/16th flat stock and set them up at right angles. He used the same procedure as when welding the can. He admonished me "don't heat the rod, just heat the material and let the rod flow to the heat". It layed the prettiest fillet down the joint that you can imagine. He went on to describe different repair techniques using this product. I bought some and I can say, gentlemen it works! I won't give up my TIG welder but for small household repairs it's almost a no brainer. I'm including the link so you can see for yourself. As is the usual, I'm in no way affiliated with this product but thought I might pass it along.
gbritnell

http://www.alumiweld.com/index.html


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## ozzie46

Bought some of these at our State Fair almost 20 yrs ago. Work great. Made some RC A/C parts like exhaust diverters and mufflers. Need a bit of practice but it came quick. I still have some left and I think I only bought about 8 to 10 rods. 

 Works well when you "tin" both parts and stick them together too.

 Ron


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## steamer

Hey Cobra.....have at it bud!......lots of pictures please ;D

Dave


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## HYTECH

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> I was at a motorcycling event over the summer. One of the vendors had a setup showing how to weld/braze with aluminum rod.
> http://www.alumiweld.com/index.html



 Here is a good demo/test of this stuff with pics. ---> http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=36600.0 

Jasen


----------



## cobra428

Well Folks I'm Back at it Again
Crankcase Part II
Mind as well start from the begining, probably mess up the top too. So I'll have another ready






Side one Set up





Now for "Crankcase" the Movie

THE ROUGHEN




THE POLISHING




Tony


----------



## cobra428

Oh Yeh,
Ment to answer "you's" (I am from NY) earlier Techno Weld....Alu weld with propane..... have it.....never used it.....but didn't want to start off with......patches and band aids.

http://www.techno-weld.com/











Thanks
Tony


----------



## cobra428

Going Crazy

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_V8_Aero_Engine___Eric_Whittle.html

If you go to the site there is the drawing of the upper crankcase
Lower left Sect B-B lifter hole .1875 dia tangent to inner wall .150 + .093 = .243 from outer wall of opposite bank

.600 dim I'm assuming to center of cyl hole.

Drawing above it .400 to lifter hole  .600-.400= .200 to outer surface of opposite bank

.043 diff ?????
Cam dia .218

Am I looking at this right??
I have a funny felling I'll be drawing this up in CAD before I go further ???

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
The 0.187 hole is not tangent to the inner wall. Lay a straight edge on the dwg and you can see it. On mine, I changed the 0.400 dimension to 0.398 as I normally put my gear centers on the theoretical center to center distance and cut my gears with the backlash clearance built into the gear. That's just personal preference however. Either would work OK in practice. 
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Wow Gail your good! I was doing the lay out this morning before work. I went to get laundry and the shop beckoned. I guess I need to get the eyeballs re-calibrated :big:
Thanks
Tony


----------



## cobra428

Well tonight's a bust

This is why we wear Safety Glasses







Nothing hit me but you never know. I was separating the upper crankcase from the lower.....almost done.....bang.
Thanks for McMaster Carr I got my order in before 7PM and I should have 2 saws for tomorrow. This way the weekend wont be a bust. I don't want to break down the set up in the mill. So tonight will be the sci channel or the history channel and a couple of cold ones!

I had a machinist at work a few jobs back tell me to use Alcohol (not the drinking kind) when cutting Alu. He said it works better than oil. Anybody agree?

Tony


----------



## Krown Kustoms

The best thing I have found so far is wd-40 and kerosene, about a 75/25 ratio.
An old friend told me to try it and it works well.
If I am not cutting too deep I just use wd-40, and I can handle the smell better.
-B-


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Excellent lesson Tony. That should help convince people to wear safety glasses.
Sorry it happened but glad you'll have what you need for the weekend.

Thanks for posting.


----------



## idahoan

Hi Tony

I have used alcohol for lube on aluminum in the past and it has worked OK; I don't like it nearly as well as a high quality cutting oil. Cool Tool is my favorite. WD40 works great on cast aluminum; it is probably the best lube I have found. I have machined hundreds of air cooled VW heads over the years and always use wd40 on them.

One other problem with alcohol is that it has some water in it. It will get between your vise and table and cause rust. 

The little saws can load up really quick as you found out. you need to keep constant lube on it and a jet of air to keep the teeth cleaned out. I have a Trico Micro Drop system on my mill that works great for this kind of thing.

Best Regards
Dave


----------



## bearcar1

WoW! Ton', I'm glad you re OK other than than the WTF surprise factor . I was told to use WD40 and a bit of Kerosene as well, although I usually just use WD40 with excellent results. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## cobra428

Zee, Dave, Jim
Thanks for the concern and the info. I was using 3 in 1 as my all around lube but noticed that the alum chips where "gummy" and stuck to the machines. They are hard to blow off and stick to everything. I think that I'm machining so much that I need a blow and mist attach! And a power draw bar isn't far away too. Where the heck is Santa when you need him Rof}
Tony


----------



## cobra428

Hi Gang,
I'm going to stop using "Hi guys" now that I know we have a lady with us! (Hi Steph) Well I found out by looking at the McMaster site that I wasn't going to ship till tomorrow :shrug:. (it said ship today for the longest time) which meant a Mon. Del. I couldn't take the wait....so...I put the baby on the horiz band saw..... and hopfully it followed the previous cut....and it did :idea: Then to the fly cutter to bring to size. Wa La






I'm back in biz
Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Then I'll take back my 'gladness'...
I'll issue a 'glad you're back in biz'.
If you have any luck to spare....please? please?

Enjoying the thread. Great stuff.


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
Do you really want my luck?
I used to be a pro pilot in the 80's Certified flight instructor and instrument instructor. First officer in a Falcon 20.One Day with a student (Marine Maj.Helo guy for transition) lost an engine at 200 ft.Went through the tree's at 90 miles an hour, plastic eye socket, nuts and bolts in hand and foot. 500k law suit settlement. Lost it all with Enron and 911. Now looking at Bankruptcy and hangling on tooth and nail. 
Feel Lucky Punk! (Dirty Harry)
Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Ouch. Okay, none to spare. I hope that bit of machining luck grows quickly for you.


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, I use Tap Magic for aluminum when I'm cutting or tapping it. Another thing to take note of is the way you are cutting with the circular saw. I always conventional cut when I'm doing that type of operation. That way it seems to pull the chips out rather than packing them into the cut. It also lessens the chance of the tool grabbing the stock. Maybe you do it that way but it was just a suggestion. They do make some small slitting saws that have relief on the teeth but they are really pricey. 
gbritnell


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Zee and George
I was doing a conventional cut at the time. I'll have to get some Tap Magic
Tony


----------



## cobra428

OK getting Back to the Future!
My friendly delivery co. didn't deliver till today got a little bit done. I went to look for the camera and it went walk about.
Went to my desk where it normally hangs out....not there. Oh I left it on the kitchen counter.....not there....It's in the shop....not there.......Went through the house about ten times......low and behold....hidding behind the tool box on the surface plate  *club*
About a foot from where I set up the pic




That's all folks
Tomorrow
Tony


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Great now you have two to work on, you can get the one patched and set it up a little different.
Sort of like a friend of mine has a 69' Camaro with a completely stock 350 engine and on a stand behind it there is a supercharged 350 with all of the bells and whistles that he swaps out every now and then.
just a thought 
-B-


----------



## cobra428

Well a little to show for tonight's effort. Got the fillets looking a lot better. I did the tool path math and the just drove the DRO






I measured up the old one and the .900 dim at the bottom of the case was .75. So off to my computer and AutoCad and draw up the geometry. Turns out the 17.5 deg dim (the way I made the old one) should be 14 deg






I know the left side is not done yet and the right side looks sq. It's just the pic. Side angles down to meet the end of the radius on the left side just don't want to make this case over again when the conn rods start hitting the sides!

Tony


----------



## steamer

Nice work Tony..... :bow:I don't have that kind of patience on the Mill that you have...Looks fantastic!

Dave


----------



## cobra428

steamer,
My mother told me I should be a doctor.....because I have a lot of patience...... :big:
Tony


----------



## cobra428

Well Gang Tonight's Fun,

Side Two Tapered, Got that blending the Radius to Flat pretty good now





C'Bore for breather, I opened up the c'bore to accept a 1/4" nut driver





First fin cut





Fin cuts complete, tomorrow.....the front outside taper and radius





Then off to hoggin out the inside :hDe:
I'm going to stay with a 1/8R bit all around till something says different

George B the Tap Magic works great. Love the smell, it smells like peppermint or something can't put my finger on it thanks for the advise

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Tony, you're welcome. I don't know if it's the best stuff but I've always had good luck with it. Your engine is coming along great. I know it's a bummer to have to remake a part but isn't it amazing how quickly the second one goes. You remember all the steps and setups and, at least for me, it seems so much easier. 
gbritnell


----------



## jthulin

The photo with the pliers put this project back into perspective for me :bow:
Nicely done!


----------



## cobra428

jthulin
Yeah I know. I can't believe this is going to be an 8 cyl eng. When I'm holding the parts I say to myself...... self.....you must be crazy :big:

Thanks George I'm trying

Tony


----------



## bearcar1

Oh dear Lord, Yes! No wonder you were not wanting to have a welder fill that hole up! Gees! I thought the part was quite a bit larger than that, wow, I'm in awe. oh:

BC1
Jim


----------



## cobra428

BC1,
she is a small little girl, I should have bought a watch makers lathe for this one :big:

A little progress tonight







It's supposed to rain here tomorrow and Sun so it looks like I'll be stuck in the shop all day Sat and Sun wooh is me Rof}

I'll be hogin out the inside and hopefully no.... :redface2: this time

Till tomorrow my friends

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

I know I said this before, Tony, but... That sure is a pretty oil pan, (again )

Keep up the good work. We're all pullin' for ya!

Dean


----------



## jimmybondi

very nice parts

i'd love to see the progress

tony - i have the same plan and would like to build it next year (because don't find any V8 or V10 / 12 with 4 valve head and DOHC) - may i write you PM because some passages i don't understand in the plan ...


Frank


----------



## steamer

Fantastic Job Tony!....keep at her!

Dave


----------



## Penguingeoff

Just posted a pic in the plans from castings , PMresearch thread of my V8 sofar (12 years old). Geoff from Tas


----------



## cobra428

Deanofid, jimmybondi, steamer,

How rude am I? Thanks guys for your continued suport. I've been out of the shop awhile now (had to do play house things). But I'm dying to get back to it! Tonight I'm going on a tour of the local power plant with my metal working club...so....tomorrow it will start again!

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Hi All,
Well after doing the play house thing my right knee went on the fritz. It was scoped about 4 years ago for a torn meniscus (I'm sure I didn't spell that right). Played a lot of football in my younger day. But I back. Didn't do to much today except clean and oil the machines and a little setup.
This will be my 3rd oil pan. The angle of the front and rear cut is killing me. I took an angle measure off the print and it seamed to come up around 15 deg. NOT. So before I waste more time and have another break out I will do another No. 3. At this rate I'll be 200 years old before I finish :big:

I went to the yahoo site for this engine and there is a pic of the mag cover of EW's engine and it looks almost square. Soooo I will cut the angle to 3 deg. and play it safe.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WhittleV8/

Here is what I did tonight (after watching the tree lighting ceremony at Rock Center with the wifee)





Swept up a bit.....can't believe that much swarf from the little parts (by the way, what dose swarf stand for?)





The set up......Again





To much angle again this was the second attempt

Well, that's it, tomorrow it begins again!

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Glad you're back at it, Tony. I love this build!

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean,
 Thanks, I'm a persistant SOB. I'm not giving up on this engine, I like it to much.

Tony


----------



## Mo deller

(by the way, what dose swarf stand for?)
mmmmm, made me wonder so I found this,

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/swarf

Peter.


----------



## steamer

Hey Tony,

You might want to lay that part out ( draw it out) to confirm the angle if the drawing is not accurate.....I feel for ya.

You know for spending as many years playing with machine tools ...use and design, you'd think I would have heard of the definition of swarf....Knowing as many Norwegian machinists that I did, no one has ever offered a definition....it's always just "been"....Thanks for that Peter!

Dave


----------



## cobra428

Peter,
Thanks for that also.....I sometimes never think of googling things. You get an at-a-boy for that!
Steamer, thanks, I will draw it out, I don't want to do a 4th :big:
Tony


----------



## NickG

Tony, not sure how I missed this but hats off to you. It's a very impressive project. :bow:

Nick


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Nick,
Don't know if I'm experienced enough. I'm giving it my best try!


----------



## ariz

first, many compliments Tony :bow: :bow: :bow:
you're doing a great job here

but please, may you explain why that angle is so important? 
because if you made that part for the 3rd time, it must be critical
in my ignorance, it seems to me only an aesthetic affair, that doesn't influence the functionality of the part

what am I missing?


----------



## cobra428

Ariz,
If you look back some posts you'll see that when I cut out the inside I broke a hole in the bottom. The second one I had the great idea of using my DRO and touched off on the hi zeroed and low spots and adjusted the angle till I got the .125 dim,. Perfect right......wrong.
This one I'm cutting the angle way down (3 deg was ~10 I forget) because you are right it is just an aesthetic thing.

Thanks for the kind words

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Hi All,
I got another night in the shop. Came upstairs to post some pics and was going to go back. Then I had to put my 2cents worth into the PoM contraversy and that ate up alot of time. But.... I picked up a few things from McMaster. A spill proof cup for lube and the non-wiggler wiggler. Cup $3.00 electronic wiggler $27.00. I'm likin the wiggler...

Thanks kvom.

No Captions tonight. I'm sure it will all make sense















Here I touch off on Z and zeroed the DRO (not you zee :big





















Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Third times a charm. I'm sure of that!

Press on, Tony!

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

Thanks
Tony


----------



## cobra428

First, let me say Dean I think,.... hope....I'm sure.... your right.
Tonights Fun...finished side 2. I cut the angle down to 3 deg. and believe it really should be zero (the drawing is deciviing). I know I can work with what I have.
So here goes the pics





































Tomorrow the inside out

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
I think you are even more persistent than I am. Dean's right. Third time.

Seriously, it is looking good.

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
You know the drawing throws you off, at least I thick. That lower front face looks like an angle. The way it blends into the outside edges. But now after seeing it there is no angle. The side tapering gives that effect. Your right, I am a persistant SOB. I have it in my head I will I will I will. Someone mentioned on the Yahoo the the cam should be mirrored so it will run clockwise (as view from the pilot seat). There are a lot of European engines even to this day that run counterclockwise. Today, I went to the hobby shop to order a pusher prop (10x7- 11x6) so I can turn backwards and see if the airfoil will work, by the pics at Tower Hobbies it look like it will. 

Talk about advanced planning :big: a little incentive and figure out what the hub dia should be and do I have to reverse the cam.

Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

It looks great. I was going to offer to draw it up in 3D if you sent the drawing for the oilpan over. I suspected that it was the blending of the surfaces because an angle wasn't called out. Of course these model engineering prints aren't always to the same standard as the aerospace firm I worked at ten years ago. Then again, most company's I've worked at since aren't to that standard. Looking at it now that curved line ending short of the front face is the giveaway.

The pusher prop will work if the engine turns the "wrong" way.


----------



## cobra428

Greg,
Thanks, and thanks for the thought of drawing for me.
Tony


----------



## cobra428

Play by Play Today All,
Had to take a break my arms are killing me from the Y axis wheel. Initial hog complete next hog in a little while

The layout (I'm a blue guy, that red stuff....)




The big hog. no break out .12 shy of the the target




The next hog





See ya in a little bit. Off to the next hog

Tony


----------



## Artie

Firstly let me say that I am in awe of your patience! I know, many would also make a third go (and Im sure this time all will be well), but not many would make the third attempt with such a cheerful disposition! Well done mate Ive followed this thread from the get go and I cant wait to see more..

Fantastic! (I so love the journey.....) :bow:

Artie


----------



## cobra428

Artie
first may I say Thank You, Hopfully I will reward your efforts on following me to a gleefully bliss of va-rom va-rom.

OK arms tired again but.....

hogen out 2





The next hogen out





Tony


----------



## steamer

YUP

This has no angle on the end....it gets close









Dave


----------



## Deanofid

So far, so good, on der hogen, Tony!
Still pullin' for ya, bud!

Dean


----------



## Krown Kustoms

Looking great, I have been away for a while but the progress is as I would have thought.
Keep up the good work
-B-


----------



## cobra428

steamer, Deanofid, Krown Kustoms 
Thanks for the support guys, you know I'm sweatin every cut

Last of the Hogen






That's it for tonight. Maybe I'll get some Hogen das now :big:

Till tomorrow no more cuts, A little Bourbon and hang with ya

Tony


----------



## kvom

That's a nice, ambitious project. It ought to keep you busy for a good long while. I'll be following along.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

This thread is a great example to everyone of patience and persistence, not to mention quality.

I'm always surprised by how small it is. I can't wait to see it running.



			
				cobra428  said:
			
		

> Here I touch off on Z and zeroed the DRO (not you zee :big



Yeah...I saw that. Most people know I'm not good for a touch. ;D


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
You have probably already seen this video that was posted on youtube a couple of weeks ago, but if not enjoy. It will provide you some additional incentive, not that you need any. And even if you have seen it, I am sure that some of the others following this thread will enjoy it. Builder is in the UK.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-SNDErd1IM[/ame]

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Hi Gail,
Thanks for the link. WOW what a little animal. I'm going to lock myself in the shop now! Till it's done! :big:

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Uh...


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
What's the Uh for? You usually have more to say than that :big:

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I was pretty speechless.

I expect it's going to happen again. And in this thread. ;D


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Zee for the confidence.

Well very little done tonight besides stare at the prints and scratch my head. I jumped onto the upper crankcase just for a change of pace. 3 lowers and I needed a break. I started the camshaft "hole"

Center drilled the location






Drilled .201 hole about 5/8 of the way down. turned the block over and center drilled the other side and drilled again till the holes meet and a little further.





Then the 7/32 reamer came out. I went through the hole block one shot with the reamer





Then spot faced a 1/4" dia at rear of block for the larger bearing





Now this is where the head scratchin comes in.....no center support bearing??? The plans just show a front and rear bearing????
There has got to be a center support bearing.

Gail, am I missing something??

Before I break this set up down I need to figure something out. I wish EW did an assy drawing or a cross section through the vitals.

Thanks
Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Did you see the CAD model on youtube? It appears there is a bearing journal in the middle of the crank.


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
The center bearing is on the plan. The front and rear of the crankcase is separated by a 0.150 web shown on the bottom view of the part. That is the view that sits at a 45 degree angle on the plan. Section A-A is the view through that web. The camshaft center bearing is just the 7/32 hole in the web. One half of the center crankshaft bearing is also in this web with the other half in the bearing cap shown as part of section A-A. Does this help?
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

dieselpilot, I haven't seen the you tube model, I'll have to look

Gail, Yes I know of the web there but the cam will be spinning on alum.. No bronze? Same for the crank too. I've been studying it and if I go to the web from the back with a 1/4" there will be little "meat for the push rod guides to have.

I guess that's it then, Thanks Gail And Diesel, I do have a tendency to over engineer.

Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPl1cdllUMQ[/ame]

It's kind of quick, but nicely done.


----------



## Deanofid

Tony, does this engine have pressurized oil, or is it splash lube? 
The video fellow really has his running up! That's what made me wonder about the oil.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Hi Dean,
First I sent you a site to buy the right wood for your engine. It's in your thread, NO BALSA!

This is a glow engine, methol alcohol nitro methane and castor oil is the fuel mix. It's more of a mist like a 2 cycle

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Oh, I get it now, and probably would have earlier if I'd remembered back to the beginning of the thread. 
Quite familiar with glow engines. So many images of the "oil pan" overloaded my little brain! Got stuck in paradigm neutral.

NO BALSA! Gotcha twice. Thanks.
I may have mentioned I'm not a wood kind of guy. Glad to take your, and my other fellow builder's word on it.
No balsa.



No balsa.


Dean


----------



## cobra428

dieselpilot, Thanks for the animation. By the way it goes I should be done tomorrow :big:

Dean, That's alright I was burning out on oil pans too. I'm just not so crazy about steel spining on alum no matter what the lube. But I'll have to live with it.

Well a minus .219 gage pin fits perfect and slowly slides through the hole. I'm a happy guy. Tomorrow the hoggen will start on the upper crankcase (I know this excites everyone)

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
I put this post up a half hour ago and it disappeared into the wild blue I guess. I will see what I can remember.

As far a lubrication. The bottom end is by splash lubrication. There is a breather tube mounted on the rear bearing housing, but it works through the rear bearing. As far as I know, the engine in inverted and 5cc of oil is put in through the oil drain plug. As there is no way to check the oil level, I assume that the oil is drained and replaced with a fresh charge of 5cc.

I think the alum/steel for the center bearings is OK. There is 0.003 clearance on the crankshaft center main, so there should not be a lot of contact. just enough to take care of crankshaft bending. 

Not that you probably care at this point, but I used a different procedure to machine the center crankshaft bearing so I would not have to line bore it. I left some meat on the upper crankcase half and milled away enough to install the center bearing cap. Then I drilled and reamed through the entire length. Later when the crankcase halves were put together I indicated on the holes at each end and machined the recess for the end bearing retainers. Then the upper crankcase half was cleaned out on the inside and the rest of the details put in.

Look at the photos Crankcase2 and Crankcase3 at:
http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n404/NMSteam/WhittleV8/

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Hi Gail,
Thanks for the info. I noticed the way you made the case in an earlier previous post. I'm not going to make the tool EW shows on the prints. I'm going to go with a "D" reamer in the middle and cut the ends to fit the bearing. I think this would be a lot easier than his line bore tool.

Tony


----------



## 2CYL4STROKE

Thm: Awesome job and without cnc machine


----------



## cobra428

2CYL4STROKE,
Thanks. I do have a DRO (almost CNC)

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Another night of hoggen. I figured I wouldn't bore you with all the details, so here's a few quick picks.
Tomorrow I'll bring it to spec.


----------



## Deanofid

2CYL4STROKE  said:
			
		

> Thm: Awesome job and without cnc machine



Heh. What's cnc?



Looks like you had a good 'n hoggen day!
You must have quite a pile of chips by now.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean,
I got chips in my shirt pocket, my hair, my shoes and everywhere else. I need a major chip sweep up and machine cleaning. You'd think my floor was made out of alum. :big: 
Tomorrow night I'll bring the oil pan and upper case to spec on the inside drill and tap joining holes and move on to the next part. Oh I have to bore the front and rear to accept the main bearing holders......more swarf drill the cyl holes, lifter holes and head bolt holes....more swarf..... should I even bother to clean up!?

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, I've got the same predicament as you, aluminum chips all over the place. I have compressed air in my shop and I blow my clothes off before I come upstairs but it seems like I still find chips where my wife thinks they shouldn't be. That video of the engine running makes my want to build one but I have my hands full with my current project. Maybe next year! Keep up the good work.
gbritnell


----------



## Deanofid

I guess chips are a part of life, with what we do, Tony. I used to get an itch or feel something biting me once in a while, sometimes even with a fresh shirt first thing in the morning. Chips in my shirt pockets! They don't come out in the wash.
Now, I put a piece of masking tape over my pockets when I go in the shop. 
I also comb out my hair and beard well before I leave the shop for the shower. If I don't, I end up with chips in the bathtub. Hard on the feet!

Dean


----------



## Metal Butcher

Simple soultions to all you problems:

Wear you tee shirts inside out.

Wear a shop apron.

Wear a baseball cap.

Reduce your speed. 

Reduce your feed.

Make a chip shield. 

Use a chip shield.

Stand back when the chips are flying.

Buy a power feed and leave the shop when the chips are flying.

All of the above works for me. 8)

-MB


----------



## cobra428

gbritnell, Deanofid, I know what you mean. I have air at my machines at 30psi and the main air at 80psi. I blow myself off with the 80 but there is always a chip stuck somewhere that follows me around the house :big:

Metal Butcher, All of what you said is true and I do have a power feed but......this engine is so small that when you are doing the intricate work (going an 1" with a 1/4" end mill) it's like working a sewing machine rather than a mill. I do have a smock but I feel like I should be cutting hair instead of metal :big:

Tony


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hi Tony, I realized after posting that intricate work requires a very close in-your-face approach. I got very intimate with the swarf produced hoggin out the crankcase on my Radford Red Deere version of Chucks Fellows John Deere.

There are occasions were my suggestion are used by me and do work. Although most of them are obvious to most of us, I thought them worthy of a mention.

I need to stop and clear out cavities that fill up rapidly with swarf. Here's an idea that may work in most cases. A bracket could be made up to hold the nozzle of a shop vacuum very near the cavity being hogged out to keep it clear and open.

Might be worth a try! 

-MB


----------



## cobra428

-MB,
Yes, that is a great idea. I would like to hook it to a foot pedal maybe. When you are working like that, your turning the feed wheel, throwing on some oil and blowing out the chips all at the same time! To bad we weren't born with 4 arms and hands! I have always thought of getting a oil mist system (flood out of the question, to messy).
Your putting bad thoughts in my head......I have to go and spend some bucks now. I really wanted to spend the bucks on a power drawbar but air and mist will come first. Drawbar big$$

Tony


----------



## cobra428

So much for the mister and air foot pedal. Air foot pedal alone $70 oil mister system start at $130. I don't understand, I can go to the depot and pick up a pneumatic blow gun set for $10. Looks like it's time to dream something up!

Tony

Post Post...found this at our friends at LMS

https://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2725&category=2122081959

But the delux

https://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2966&category=2122081959

 scratch.gif

Tony
Again


----------



## vlmarshall

I've seen people convert an airbrush to a coolant mister.


----------



## cobra428

Vernon,
Interesting......but I still use mine for painting and that's an expensive approach depending on the airbrush mfg'er. No way in heck am I going to convert my Pacshe. I guess I could go to HF and get one of those $20 ones. It would give a nice mist. I going to think that over.

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

cobra428  said:
			
		

> No way in heck am I going to convert my Paasche. I guess I could go to HF and get one of those $20 ones. It would give a nice mist. I going to think that over.
> 
> Tony


   No, not the Paasche! I've got a single-action that I've had for years. Great brush. I was thinking of the HF or one of the cheapies from Wal-mart's model kit section, Badger or a Testors, probably. ;D


----------



## Twmaster

Got any links to a conversion for a cheapo airbrush? BTW, HF has airbrushes on sale last time I looked.


----------



## cobra428

Guys, I don't know, you just sprung this one on me. And NO PAASHE will be sacrificed. I been bizzy getting my HF 8x12 lathe on a bench tonight, It was sad that I retired it in it's prime. 5 good engines stirling and steam all running and I turned her in for a grizz 10 x22 and DRO. That's no way to meet her end. Tried to sell but, as I would be sceptical too buying a used lathe. So now I'll have 2 lathes. What the heck, I'll keep a 4 jaw on one and a 3 on the other. The bench a little wobbly I may have to mount it to the wall. 

Vernon, Single action is what I have, Tried Double action....almost went out of my mind :shrug: :wall: Rof}

Optimism 1-O-1, 4 blade for display 2 blade to run and the pusher prop is perfecto mondo for reverse rotation. (Gail tell the folks on yahoo, No need to mirror the cam, this is the way It' should be, can't seem to get a message across, it does rotate ccw from the pilots seat)







I,ve got to stop BS'in with you gang and start working. I really want this engine. It's to bad I really like you guys and need to BS Rof}

Here goes a pic of the fun tonight
















Should have listened to the bride and read the instructions





After long, long hours of work rebuilding Rof} (shush and a couple of beers)





Engine Hoist and nylon strap from the Homedepot (don't try this at home I'm an untrained professional)





Home sweet home. 





It's in a better home than the dolly. I might get the Hippy Hippy Shakes as the Maryak had said once but little parts should be fine till I find a better home for her

Tony


----------



## ozzie46

[  Guys, I don't know, you just sprung this one on me. And NO PAASHE will be sacrificed. I been bizzy getting my HF 8x12 lathe on a bench tonight, It was sad that I retired it in it's prime. 5 good engines stirling and steam all running and I turned her in for a grizz 10 x22 and DRO. That's no way to meet her end. Tried to sell but, as I would be sceptical too buying a used lathe. So now I'll have 2 lathes. What the heck, I'll keep a 4 jaw on one and a 3 on the other. The bench a little wobbly I may have to mount it to the wall. ]


  Tony, Not to go to far off topic but I too have recently purchased the Griz 10 x 22.

  Would you be so kind as to give me your impressions of it? I haven't had a chance to use mine very much, although I did make a QCTP for it. I don't have a DRO and probably won't get one. Too expensive for me.  

 I'm keeping my 7 x 12 as I have found there were several times I wished I had another lathe so I wouldn't have to remove a part from the chuck before it was done to do something else.

 Ron


----------



## cobra428

Ron,
Don't worry about going off topic on this thread. I'm having fun here...a little work on the Whittle...a little BS'in. I think it's great. My Grizz 10x22 is a very nice machine. I saw in your thread, you had a problem with your spindle. I have had no problems to date and the mach has been a work horse (as a hobby mach that is). I love that I can change feed rates and do threads with the simple turn of the knobs. I think I'll keep both lathes too. As you said it would be nice. DRO is a luxury item I know and it is very helpful but not a necessity. Good luck with yours and start using it more and make some engines! If I can help in the future don't hesitate to chime in.

Tony


----------



## ozzie46

Thanks Tony. Will do. Thm:

 Ron


----------



## cobra428

Hallelujah,
Dean, your right, third time is a charm....so far. I got a little done tonight. So here goes

Outside looking good...I have to tap oil drain hole. Thanks Gail on the heads up on the wet sump. Most commercial 4 strokes that is a breather. I didn't get that far in the reading and for now I don't want to (it will scare me). I have to finish the upper crankcase, join the two and bore the main bearing holes.





Inside a little ruff but some paper should handle that...besides only we will know :big:





0-80 screws...I got to be nuts...my hands are to big and if I drop one ....with my eyes I never find it





Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Congratulations Tony. Looks very nice.

Remember to sand the sump and upper crankcase with fine abrasive paper so they fit together very well to keep oil leaks down with the moving parts in the wet sump throwing oil everywhere in the crankcase. 

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
I fly cut those surfaces and will sand with 1000 on the surface plate and a tad of high temp silicon smear should do it....I hope
And Gail, Thanks for keepin an eye on me....your a great help!
Tony


----------



## Deanofid

One-more-time, then.
_That sure is a good lookin' oil pan_, Tony.

There. I said it again. And again. 


Keep it up. You've obviously go it in you!

Dean


----------



## CMS

With the craftsmanship observed here and in other posts within the "A Work In Progress" thread, I'm to scared to post my carvings. I can see the rocks coming at me from the computer screen now!!! :big:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

That is really fine work Tony. I am so looking forward to seeing this engine.

Put a coin nearby or steal that M&M from Dean...it's amazing to realize how small this engine is.



			
				CMS  said:
			
		

> I can see the rocks coming at me from the computer screen now!!!



Let them who have never broken a tap, never snapped a drill bit, never cranked in the wrong direction....cast the first stone. ;D


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, I don't know what you're talking about. The pan looks great. I don't know that I would have had the perseverance to make three of them. I have AutoCad installed on my computer. Whenever I get into a situation where I'm not sure of metal breakout or interference I draw the area up to see what's happening. I know alot of fellows don't have this option but it sure helps out.
George


----------



## mu38&Bg#

That looks great. Do the drawings show ringed or lapped pistons?


----------



## cobra428

Dean, Thanks, eventually I get it right, get it right, get it right :big:

CMS No fun is made of anybodies work here.....we all started somewhere

Zee, Thanks, I second the "cast no stone" The problem with the M&M is I keep eating them before I can take the pic!

George, the worst thing is I do have autocad, mechanical desk top and Inventor at home. At my previous job we were allowed to have a copy at home. I will draw out the upper block cyl, stud and lifter holes in cad. Then datum dim so no confusion on the DRO. Don't want to do the upper 3 times!

dieselpilot, Ringed.....yeh I know....small .460 bore

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Zee, Thanks, I second the "cast no stone" The problem with the M&M is I keep eating them before I can take the pic!



You won't see any stones from this direction, either... maybe half a tap, or a pointless centerdrill... but no stones.

Instead of M&Ms, use a bottlecap like that fine specimen that Zeep uses. ;D


----------



## cobra428

Vernon,
Sorry, I never saw one of Zee's bottle caps. Is it any good? Maybe I'll have to get some!

Well here's tonight episode

Taped the oil drain hole, If you don't want to break taps this is the gizmo HF don't remember how much but the price of 3 broken taps covers it.






Made up the drain plug from 1/4 hex. Don't know about the O-ring maybe an alum washer or copper





Engine mtg screws, bottom tap no break out or break in...depending how you look at it...2-56





Can't eat the quarter Zee!! :big:
That's it for tonight, Time to do some cad for the upper block. I don't want to do it 3 times :big:





Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

Such amazing work. Seeing it on the tapping fixture really shows it's small size.



			
				cobra428  said:
			
		

> Vernon,
> Sorry, I never saw one of Zee's bottle caps. Is it any good? Maybe I'll have to get some!


 Yeah, it's a Guinness cap he's waving around all the time. Great stuff, although I've never seen him with any. ;D


----------



## cobra428

Guinness
Vernon, that is some horrible stuff. Like a beer milk shake! Black and Tan ugh...like drinking syrup. give me a Becks Or Heineken with a shot of Jack... now we are talking! Call me old fashion but...no stout

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Do you have any more to do on that part? I hope not...the suspense would kill me.
Thanks for showing the quarter...it just makes it more amazing.




			
				Vernon  said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's a Guinness cap he's waving around all the time. Great stuff, although I've never seen him with any.



Only cause he hasn't paid up yet. It's been months!


----------



## cobra428

Zee,
Yeah, more to do! I have to finish the upper block...then join the two.....then bore a big a.s hole (.833) (relitive) to accept the main bearings between the two. The suspense continues.....next episode ....will tony....(you know) (F up). Zee I'm pushing the outside of my envelope on this one. But, as they (who the heck are they anyway) say nonthing ventured nothing gained.

Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Lovely stuff. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## cobra428

Bob,
Coming from the master, that's encouraging words.

Thanks

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Looks great, Tony!

For that gasket/seal thing for the drain plug, check out some of the plastics. UHMW comes in a nice dark gray, and there are lots of other types that could be used. You can turn them to the size you need, and they can be parted off nice and thin. For materials, maybe check out nylon fasteners at the hardware store if you don't want to make a special order just for this piece.

Thanks for mentioning that tapping stand. I've had one on my "to build" list for about five years, but just never get around to it. If they're as inexpensive as they sound, would be cheaper to buy it than to buy materials.

Keep it up!

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean,
HF took a beating dealing with me. Everytime I caught something on sale or... I pounced on it. Yeah, the credit Cards took a hit at the time but all is good now. Band saw $200 + now. I got mine for $79. Watch those flyers! My mill $1000 plus now....$800 with x feed...nailed them!

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Before I make 3 upper crankcases, I did a little cad work after coming home from doing cad work all day. If it saves me from making 3, it will be worth it

Gail tell me if you see something out of wack I got .0095 into the center web with second cyl from the left?

Tony 

View attachment Whittle_Upper Block.pdf


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, I got .604 bore spacing between the first and second cylinders. I also got .604 between the third and fourth but between the second and third I got .76. You might check those dimension out.
gbritnell


----------



## cobra428

George,
Thanks for checking but that is correct. I was going to scan a copy of the original but I think my scaner just went south

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_V8_Aero_Engine___Eric_Whittle.html

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
You are correct that there is a 0.0095 interference between the cylinder hole and the web. It occurs on both left and right cylinder banks. It will not cause any problem because the cylinder walls are 0.020 thick, so the bore clears the web. BUT you must bore the cylinder mount holes a minimum of 0.200 deep, a little extra won't hurt, to clear the bottom of the cylinder skirt. Since the crankcase is 0.150 thick there, you only need to go in a little over 0.05 into the web. I think I went in 0.218 overall so I would have an extra 0.018 of wiggle room. Don't remember for sure. 

Also note that there is a similar interference on the outside cylinders to the end of the crankcase on both the left and right sides. It is almost 15 thou, so the same boring depth precaution applies there, that is 0.200 minimum bore depth. 

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
I saw the cut that has to be made to the front and rear covers to clear the cyl.. I feel better now that someone doubled checked me

Thanks Again
Tony


----------



## cobra428

George , Gail,
Did the datum dim to make it easier for me drive the DRO. No Math now, just HNC (Hand Numeric Control). Thanks for your input and concern. It's always nice to have the experts looking out for ya! Happy Holidays!

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Gail,
I just got through on the Whitle Yahoo site. I had to straighten the boys out on engine rotation. They've never flown anything and they think...well I'll had to....Euro a/c engines of that era turned the "other way" to US engines (and still some to this day). No need to reverse or "mirror" the cam. EW knew what he was doing. Pusher prop.. opposite rotation....is just the way it is. Don't even thinking about listening to those yokells :big:

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
I saw your reply on the group.

Now to muddy the water a little bit more. The only stationary photo I have of the original Eric Whittle engine with a prop on it has a right hand prop. It is mounted on the test stand so I assume that it was ready to run at the time. That would indicate that the original was set up for CW rotation as viewed from behind. Makes me wonder if he did the drawing different from what he built. :shrug: I never saw the V* run, but I know that the ROBIN, which was his single cylinder engine just before the V8, turned in the standard US convention, that is used a right hand prop. I shared a table with Eric Whittle at NAMES the year he had the Robin on display so got to see quite a bit of it.

I have not worked out the cam at all, so I can't speak with any authority on it.

Following along with you on your build has refreshed my memory and gotten me somewhat back to being current with the drawings and the engine design. If we keep talking back and forth on it, I may have to resume the build on the Whittle after I put the Lobo Twin project to bed. That will be several weeks away at best as I am going to build a second Lobo to incorporate all the changes that I have made. 

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Gail
I'm glad I "sparked" your interest again in the Whittle. When I saw the U-tube vid it looks like the engine is running CW.....But as we all know....when the fan blades are running in the house the fan looks like they are running backwards. Just like the wagon wheels in the movies. EW's and if you notice it says "prototype run" in the title. I think that's EW's run the prop looks like it's going CW where in reality it's going CCW. Just my opinion.....and that's not worth much!

Tony

Is RJW his brother? W?
There was a post by RJW?? in my thread and I went back and can't find it. Mystery Guest? Mystery Guest told me to use a pusher prop!


----------



## cobra428

Hi All,
After the holiday fun, I got back to the shop. So here's tonight's fun.

Bring the inside to spec. At least I hope! Drill and tap all associated holes (0-80 and 2-56 heart pounding)





Getting to look like a block for Christmas!





The inside





Tomorrow the other side (inside all done just the cyl holes etc...)

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!!

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Neat, Tony. It's looking _very_ good!
Aren't those bitsy holes fun?
: )

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Aren't those bitsy holes fun?
> Dean



You bet Dean,
Now, I have to tap all the head bolts 2-56. I'll have to keep you guy's on line, this way if I break a tap. I can send my dyeing words

 Rof} Rof} Rof}

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Gail,
This A/C had the engine that EW modeled his after. The Airdisco

Look at the prop.... CCW Rotation from the pilots seat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DH51.JPG

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Hi All,
I couldn't resist. Went to the shop and taped the head bolt holes.

No taps were sacrificed this night(so far)











Thanks Gbritell for turning me on to tap magic. I use to use the "crayon" stuff to tap NG

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Very nice Tony.

I have another photo of the same AC and engine from a different view. Shows the same prop rotation of course. Maybe EW just bolted on a RH prop for the photo of his engine. I am not going to worry about it any. When (if) I ever get as far as the cam then I will. I think I would be inclined to build it to the British CCW standard from rear as I think you are planning to do. LH props are easy to come by. 

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail for your support,
I guess if I get it finished....I'll find out about the rotation. I picked up a couple of pusher props and they will work.

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Well, I'll be making another upper crankcase. After all that work I discover I have a camshaft hole on an angle. I don't know how to get a hole that long to come out the other side dead on target.

I made sure that all was square (with squares). But to no avail, I'm .020 off side to side.010 off in the vertical. I'm wondering, should I drill the hole then put a rod in it and do my setups from the rod. Or indicate the verticals and adj x and shim y (y is table to column I place top to y in vise).

How do you get a 3" long .218d to hit the target on the other side?
Someone HELP!

Tony


----------



## joe d

Tony

Never having looked at the plans this might be a "no way", but could you just go oversize right through, and put in bushings at each end?

Joe


----------



## cobra428

joe d,

There are bearings at both ends.....but there is a web in the middle of the case

The inside





Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

I've read that a D-bit works for straight deep holes.


----------



## kvom

Before starting over it would pay to try a repair. Can you drill/bore the end holes oversize, loctite in a plug, and redrill each from its end? I'm assuming that the holes need to be large enough for the cam lobes to pass through.


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, I find this to be one of the hardest jobs when building an engine. When drilling a deep hole I start out with a center drill and drill it just a bit deeper than than the diameter of the drill you're going to use. This will give you an accurate chamfer for the drill to start in. Next, with a new drill, I drill the hole undersize. A resharpened drill, no matter how well it's sharpened, will sometimes wander as it drills. Now a take an end mill that has been reground just a little under nominal and counterbore the hole before starting my next drill. The last thing I do is run a reamer through the hole. You have to realize that if all the prep work isn't done well that the reamer will just follow whatever hole you have in there. I don't mean this to be condescending, and maybe you did all these preliminary steps, but I have had the same problems and this is the only way I could find to cure it. Now on to your dilemma. First off, what size are we talking about? If it's a standard inch or metric diameter this is what I would try to do. Get a long or extra long 4 flute end mill. Grind all of the flutes under size by .005-.008 except for the first .25 (cutting end). Now set up your piece, indicate it as square as you can get it and cut it with your modified end mill. Run the spindle at about 4-500 rpm. There should be enough rigidity in the end mill to cut the hole true. If you can't get a long enough end mill then you might want to consider making a cutter out of drill rod. After forming the cutting flutes on the rod just harden that area. This way the bar won't warp. What you're after is a rigid boring bar. If you can't get all the way through with the end mill, go as deep as you can then pick up and layout the the good center on the unmachined end. Set the job back up using the same surfaces as you did for the first cut, wiggle you layout lines and recut. This should get you darn close. What you suggested is viable, drilling and reaming first and then working from that hole to do the rest of the work but it's a pain in the butt. 
George


----------



## cobra428

kvom,
Thanks for the thought but this engine spins at 8000~9000 rpm locktite scares me in that situation. And there isn't that much room to wiggle

George,
Thanks, I'm going to print that out and study it. Hole ends up a .218 ream

Thanks all
Tony


----------



## kustomkb

Looking really good Tony!!

Sorry about the mishap...


----------



## vlmarshall

Ugh, sorry to hear about your trouble.


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Sorry about you drill run out. 

The only alternative to Georges excellent suggestion I can offer is a guide bush and clock gauge to keep the drill on track at the centre web. A long series centre drill may also assist in control on the centre web.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## BillC.

Tony,

Have you seen the original drawings for the totally fabricated version of the Whittle V8? The block is fabricated from bar stock. This has always been a very interesting project to me. Now there are drawings to machine it from solid - very interesting - and a V8 too!

Bill C.

BTW: I'm enthusiastic about finding this forum so pardon some of the giddy - the rest is normal....But the down fall is that I'm sitting in front of a computer right now pecking on a keyboard!!


----------



## GailInNM

Sorry Tony,
Just remember we build engines because we like to machine and because it is FUN.
I don't remember how I did mine. Typically on deep holes I peck drill with factory sharpened drill bit. About 1/2 a hole diameter on each peck and cutting fluid every time. Goes slow. 
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Guys for the condolences

Maryak I was thinking about that or Georges method. I was looking at end mills today at work (shhh) on the internet
was also going to experiment with a 135 deg drill and maybe a spiral ream  :idea: :shrug:

BillC. Yes I have the plans from Hemmingway and a copy of EW's pub in ME and so far it's a good thing it's bar stock. What you are seeing is made from bar stock (would have spent a fortune in castings)

Gail, Yes, I do like machining and the $4 worth of Alum ah, the 30hrs of work ah. I'm learning, that the fun too. And I do have some chunks for the smaller parts out of the boo-boo's. Once I get past the cases the rest looks fairly easy to me (except the cam but I'll get through that to) Each one I get a little better at and hopfully a little smarter. scratch.gif

I'm going to relax and clean the shop. I'm knee deep in alum chips. I spent last night cleaning the mill and indicating the vise. I have to make a note to check it once a month just for fun. 2 years since the last check! It was off by .003 over the 6". Which wouldn't affect the way I made the block. And which wasn't the way it was a while ago. Maybe all the fly cutting moved it a bit. I do have a vise that swivels (I seen the posts on that and I probably should axe the swivel). Tonight I'm going to check my vertical with the DI

Don't worry, I don't give up easy or without a fight! Thm:

Tony


----------



## BillC.

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Don't worry, I don't give up easy or without a fight! Thm:



 You've already proven that without a shadow of a doubt!

Most respectfully  :bow: :bow:

Bill C.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I missed what had happened. Sorry to hear about it.
But yeah! Keep at it. Looking forward to seeing it!


----------



## cobra428

Yeah, Thanks Zee.
After I drilled the hole all looked good......till I miked it. Got to figure this one out. This is the engines foundation and needs to be right.

By the way any plans for Cabin Fever? I'll be there on Sat. That place should be a quick ride for you!

BillC, Thanks I'm almost done de-swarfing. Things might feel better in a clean shop

Tony

Taking a beer break now. I don't think the broom or vac can hurt me to bad, dust pans can be a little dangerous though Rof}


----------



## zeeprogrammer

The 'plan' is to go. I've missed 2 other events because of family...either wife coming or going to Europe...or daughter coming or going to college. Now they're both home. But my knee has gone out.

I'll have a 'Z' on me somewhere...look me up...or down. ;D


----------



## cobra428

I'll be wearing my cobra hat (from my car hobby days)

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

You're a rock solid guy, Tony. Many would have called it a day and moved on to something else by now. 
Sorry to hear about this durn thing! Really hope you can fix it!

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Hey Thanks Dean.
I'm like the little train that can!

Well, the shop is now clean of swarf. I want everyone to know that no swarf was harmed in it's recovery! :big:

After admiring the nice clean and organized shop, sipping on a suds, I decided to reread the article that EW wrote. And I quote "drill camshaft hole all the way through at this point and it must come out at the right spot". Then he goes on to something else. My quotation is a little off exact but basically that's what it says.

Well, there you go! Easy as pie! A walk in the park!.....Drill the hole all the way thru.

Oh well, onward. I'll give the suggestions I got a go and we'll see. More SWARF to come!

Tony


----------



## kvom

A couple of thoughts should you decide to start over.

1) Can you (partially) drill the holes on either end rather than all the way through from one end? I would have thought that drilling the hole(s) after hogging out the interior would be more accurate.

2) If that's not possible, how about drilling through, smaller than final size, and using a ground rod to align the rest of the part's sides and top?

3) I know you already cut off the top when remaking the bottom, but if you put a piece of round stock in the lathe offset in the 4-jaw, you could bore a straighter hole than drilling would give. Or use an endmill if boring is impractical.


----------



## cobra428

kvom,
Thanks for your thoughts on this, every suggestion is a help. I've been knocking around the idea of the 4 jaw. That's the way it's pictured in the article. I did do the drill from both end thing but it seems any variance will throw the reamer off. Last night I DI'ed the vise vertically. I will try a couple of holes tonight and see which method will work the best.

Tony


----------



## bearcar1

[quote
.......................I'll have a 'Z' on me somewhere...look me up...or down. ;D
[/quote]





Just don't feel...... Rof} Rof} Rof}



BC1
Jim


----------



## cobra428

BC1,

Thanks for the laugh......I needed it :bow:

Tony


----------



## BillC.

Tony,

I'm feeling your agony...If I may offer another slant on this....

How about packing the upper to the cross slide and peck drill through with the lathe saddle? I also noticed in the photos of the first one that your drill chip is very long and straight as if the feed may be a bit too steep or fast? Pecking about .015 with maybe a .1875 or so bit should give you a very accurate hole then follow up slight increasing drills to reamer size. This 'pecking' is where a CNC mill comes in very handy - they're oblivious to the boredom of peck drilling deep holes! But with this set-up you could peck substantially smaller than the ream under size so that you could make a correction if need be with an easily made boring bar between centers.

Bill C.


----------



## mu38&Bg#

Maybe this will give you some ideas.

http://www.modelenginenews.org/cirrus/crankcase.html


----------



## cobra428

BillC
Thank You. I picked up or I should say ordered a 3/16 4 flute 3/16 shank carbide end mill 1-1/4 cut 3"L. I'm going to give George's method as my first shot and I will peck, peck gently away. I ordered from McMaster and I usually get next day service because I'm close. I hate to take a grinder to a perfectly good and new end mill but if it does the job......it will save me both time and money!

The plan is to expose about a 1/2" of the end mill to start. Then as I go, another 1/4 then another 1/4 etc Till I get half way ....flip it over then start all over. After that open the hole with drills till I get into reamer range.

See you in about a month .....I have a felling this will take awhile :big:

Tony


----------



## cobra428

dieselpilot,
Thanks, I'll have to sit back and give that a good read

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
If we pooled our efforts we could have a good size box of "almost right crankcases".

After turning up the bits and pieces that go on the Lobo Mk2 crankcase I did a trial fit on the finished crankcase. They did not fit right. Somehow I bored the crankshaft hole 0.015 low. As a consolation prize the dozen tapped 0-80 holes were concentric with the bore. Set the DRO wrong I guess and kept working with it that way. So the replacement in progress is #4 for the MK2. 

Are we having fun yet? :redface2:

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

GailInNM,

 Rof} Rof} Rof}

I know the DRO gives me a false sense of security. I sometimes think I can be a human CNC with it! One pass and wa-la a part.
We should pool our scrap bins and turn them in for $'s. We could then retire in Hawaii :big:

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Next Victim,

I needed a block to experiment on. So I'll do it to the next basic block. If I spend all that time pecking and it works....I'm golden! If not, I still need a squared up piece to experiment with.







DeJa Vou all over again

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Peck it like a chicken, Tony!
Never say die, or never, or any of those other words..

Watching and hanging in with you.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Dean,
I'm going to get the chaise lounge out and tie a rope to the spider, get a big cigar, lay back and pull on the rope a little every 10 sec. :big:

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Thanks Dean,
> I'm going to get the chaise lounge out and tie a rope to the spider, get a big cigar, lay back and pull on the rope a little every 10 sec. :big:
> 
> Tony


oh man...somebody's gotta draw that. ;D


----------



## cobra428

Yeah Vernon,
You don't need a drawing.... the mental picture alone says it all :big:

I'm going to have to take my time....2 chips at a time......and.....hopefully when I put the pin gage in each side and measure.....They are within a couple of thou of each other.

Fingers crossed

Tony

PS George B is an artist....see if he'll draw us a cartoon


----------



## vlmarshall

Good luck! I'll be thinking about ya tomorrow... while I'm drilling .014" holes in tool steel at work. ;D


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Vernon....and it sounds like you'll need a little luck too!

To the both of us Thm:

Tony


----------



## steamer

Condolences on the loss , but a hearty hand shake to the intestinal fortitude!.....Keep swinging Tony!

Have you considered line boring it?..at least to reamer size?....just a thought.

Dave


----------



## cobra428

steamer,
Thank you very much. I was thinking about a tool for line boring the crankshaft bearings. The plans call for a 6mm shaft cut down a bit in the center of the length and a tool bit and set screw. Man that's small.
So I was thinking of a 6mm shaft and cut a "D" reamer in the middle. I'm thinking if doesn't work tonight then a similar tool might work.

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Well tonight I will join the M&M club.No sense being left out from the IN club.







I'll see that M&M and raise you a Bliss






Anybody detect the oh shirt in my typing

Still off .010 left and right front to back and top to bottom on the camshaft bore. Somebody tell me I'm Crazy, that's OK how close do you want to get it???

+/- .002 would be nice and I think that's what it needs to be.

Tomorrow I will try to massage it in .005 off here and there ....maybe. I think I need to cut the upper .010 larger then drill the cam hole then bring it home by cutting the outside to fit.

Time for some thought and .......

Tony


----------



## ksouers

This might seem a rather flip remark, then again, maybe not. Maybe just an odd way of thinking...

How about drilling the holes, then machine around that as the datum?

Like I said, just an odd way of looking at the problem. Disregard as you see fit.


----------



## cobra428

ksouers,
Thanks for your input!
You maybe right! I thought of that a while ago but....looking for the easy way out! But. There is no easy way! I'm thinking that it's going to be a little of this and a little of that kind of thing. I need to "massage" it into spec.

Tony


----------



## ksouers

Glad to help.

That may not be your solution, but maybe thinking about the problem differently will help you find it.


Good luck. I'll be watching


----------



## cobra428

ksouers,
I need support now....This thing is kicking my a....ss now ....but...... I will prevail....Nice to know I've got Friend's!

Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

How about leaving the block oversize and squaring to whatever hole you get? Maybe not true machinist form, but if you don't tell anyone, I won't. If you go this route PM me and I'll make like this post never existed. ;D


----------



## cobra428

dieselpilot,
At this point I don't care how I get there. I know how I can reach it...I think.  You are right drill the hole then fit the block around it.

Thanks Man Or should I say Mate?

Tony


----------



## Powder keg

I once had a similar problem. I drilled halfway through with a small drill then I step drilled it a couple sizes. Feeding slow If I remember right then reaming it last. You are doing a nice job though)


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
Sorry that the new methods did not prove successful. 

I think that Diesel's method may be the best approach. I worked up a procedure to do it that way, but by now you probably have something underway. 

I pulled mine out and measured it using a surface plate and indicator. Mine measures just under 0.005 total difference in position, or about 0.0025 out of position. I can't see that hurting anything. As long as the hole is straight so the cam runs freely. Just have to be careful about clearance with the cam followers and guides.

I was using a gauge pin to test with and it was not quite long enough to stick out both ends at the same time. So I pulled out the length of 7/32 drill rod I have reserved for this project. I discovered that it is not as straight as I would like. Found a fairly straight section and cut that out. Measurments were the same as the gauge pin. I probably will order a new length of name brand of drill rod when the time comes. Probably won't make any difference. I would guess that the distortion from hardening will be greater than the bow in the rod I have.

Gail in NM


----------



## Deanofid

Just spitballing here, Tony, but I wonder if you could use some kind of stepped reamer held between centers as a kind of align boring bar. You would have to make it, I think. Four flutes should do.

It would depend on your lathe being long enough, and setting up the crankcase half on the cross slide. Your head and tail will need to be dialed in dead on.

The reamer would need a long plain end on the end that goes in the tail stock center. Long enough to go clear through the crankcase before the reaming edges engage the piece. Then flutes on the rest of it, a little longer than the crankcase. Picture a counter bore with a very long pilot, but you wouldn't want the pilot to touch the sides of the bore.
I think I wouldn't harden it, to rule out warping the tool.

A true align boring job will get this straight, too. That's a pretty small bore though, so would need a small bar, of course, and very light cuts. 

Or, you could forget that stuff, be sensible, and make the piece around the cam bore. I don't think it is a cheap way out. Doing it wrong and leaving it that way is the cheap way out. Working to a datum, where ever it is, seems to make sense. That's what we do when we indicate off a bore on a piece in a four jaw chuck, or on an RT, after all!

Dean


----------



## joeby

The bottom line is that the cam bore has to be in line and straight. I don't believe that how it gets there makes any difference, there isn't any cheating it.

 The camshaft bore, out of necessity IS your datum on this part. Being out of line will cause grief the rest of the way through the build. These small engines are, in my opinion, much more finicky in location tolerances than even their full-size counterparts which, BTW are commonly fixtured from the crank and cam bores for machining. 

 I would get the hole in straight and on size, making sure there's enough material to bring the block to size and located to the hole. When I was working as a mold-maker, this became common practice on a lot of parts we made, the critical holes were put in first and the rest located from the hole. 

 I am not saying that it can't be done, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. 

 Best of luck to you with whatever method you end up using; short of having fancy gun drills, jig borers, or wire EDMs, sometimes luck is what we use.

 Kevin


----------



## steamer

Here's a boring bar I made to cut a 0.354-10 LH ACME ID thread.

The body is .1875 and the screw is 4-40.

It can be done......but tedious oH so very tedious











Baring a boring operation, I think the "make the hole and build the part around it" approach is a good bet....PROVIDED the hole is straight....drills can make curved holes sometimes.....beware!
A toolmakers reamer ( or a D bit) should be used to straighten the hole out and bring to size.....but I'd try boring it first...at least to reamer size
Dave


----------



## NickG

Wow Tony, you're doing a grand job here. I really need to go through this thread again from the start!

Like the M&M touch!

Nick


----------



## cobra428

3 hrs of set up double check.....triple check.....new reamer......and the cam hole is +/- .002 all around front to back top to bottom left to right. I brought to size then drilled. This time I made sure of a couple of things which I didn't the last time. Machined surface against fixed vise jaw and I used a piece of 1/2" precision tool steel rod in the collet to square the piece up side to side.

 th_wav

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

CONGRATS! Another stop closer.... :bow:


----------



## GailInNM

Congratulations Tony.
The three day silence was starting to worry me.
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Vernon,

Gail, thanks, I had to step back and think over what I was doing (don't do it again!) and wait for a new reamer.

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Most excellent, Tony!


----------



## potman

As they say Tony, 
the devil is in the details.

Great job figuring out how to do it right.
This success has got to be a boost to your confidence.

And provides a lesson to us novices ( or is it novii ? ).

earl...


----------



## ksouers

Way to go, Tony.

Sometimes it pays to just walk away from a problem for a while. You just get too close and can't see what the real issues are till you step back a bit.


----------



## Maryak

No More :wall:, No More :fan:

Much More. Thm: Thm: Thm: Thm:

Congrats on a successful outcome. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## steamer

Congratulations Tony!.....Glad you got by it!

On with the build! 

Dave


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, first off I'm glad you solved your problem. The next thing is I refer to your post #278. Setup is the most important aspect of machining. Sometimes setup takes more time than the actual cut but as you have found out there is no substitute. The work around, drilling and reaming first, is OK if the part is small enough to do that but it would be nice to figure out why it was happening in the first place so that it could be avoided on something larger. A new sharp drill with equally shaped flutes should drill quite an accurate hole. It's usually when the drill has been resharpened that it wants to push sideways while going through the material. Anyway, the rest they say should be a piece of cake.
gbritnell


----------



## cobra428

Thanks All,
Glad I'm through that. Lessons to be learned.....don't rush.... double check your set up. The old saying.... measure twice cut once! The worst part is I know all those things but sometime don't listen to the voice of reason in my head saying check it again!

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Tonight's Fun






















Almost done, Drill holes for crank support and oil gallery drill and tap mating holes for the lower tap head screw holes
Then the big one....bore front and rear of both upper and lower with a .833 hole. I'm thinking that one for the lathe in a 4 jaw

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
You not only do nice work but you do it very FAST.
Looks great.
Gail in NM


----------



## Powder keg

Looking good. I don't think I realised that it was that small? I should go back through refresh my memory some ;D


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail and Wes, She's a little one alright!

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

It's great, Tony!
Nice touch, Wright Flyer and an aero engine.

Dean


----------



## kvom

Holey moley!  ;D :bow:


----------



## slick95

Holy Cr_p Tony  The engine is so much smaller than I had realized. Your progress and problem solving are very inspiring and I'm really enjoying following your build.

and from a fellow aviator great coin choice...

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Dean, kvom, Slick,
Thank for the kind words. The Wright Flyer quarter is now located in the shop for future pics. I can't keep those darn M&M's around to long!

Tony


----------



## mu38&Bg#

It's great to see it worked out! I'm getting closer to my first complete build. I have to finish designing it, but I'm tied up with work for the next week or so.


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Greg,
I am a happy camper right now

Tony


----------



## cfellows

A lot of very nice work going into this engine. Gonna be a beauty!

Chuck


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Chuck,
I've got a lot of drilling and taping to go but so far so good!

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow. I knew it was small. But it's always such a shock.
What a project.
I wish I had that patience and skill.
Or at least the skill.


----------



## cobra428

Hey Zee,
It's small. I am doing some cad work now and I'm about to go and drill and tap somemore holes. 
News at 11 (est)

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

Waiting anxiously. ;D


----------



## Cedge

Tony
I've quietly followed this thread and have marveled at your work. However, until you placed the quarter in the photo I'd never really gotten the scale of things. I can tell you my head almost exploded....LOL. You're working way down at George Luhr levels of tiny, there!!! I'll be watching as you progress, much more closely as things move ahead. Amazing!!

Steve


----------



## cobra428

Vernon, Wait no more....I figured I go up against Leno and or Conan :big:

Steve, That would be a Dime instead of a quarter on Luhrs engines!

So anyway, Hole-ly smokes Tony is all taped out tonight because he spent the hole night screwing around... :big:
Did a little CAD work EW had 7 and 1/16 holes in the circle so I drew up the circle for the lower case in ACAD at 7 bolts.....well I lost .007 of the .135 he has you start at but the good news is it works for my DRO now.

Just use for the lower crankcase angle will depend on how you have your DRO set up and if anyone interested I will datum dim for you if you don't have bolt circle capability on DRO or doing it manual.
See Attached Below





































So far so good!

Tony




View attachment Whittle_LOWER CASE CIRCLE.pdf


----------



## doc1955

Looking might pretty Good work! :bow:
Good feeling getting all those hole tapped I'll bet!

"Screwing around" :big: :big:


----------



## cobra428

doc the fingers are warn out....more holes inside too!

One more step off the list!

Tony


----------



## ksouers

Tony,
You look like you're all tapped out  ;D


Man, dat's a lotta holes...


----------



## cobra428

ksouers,
Man, you ain't kidding

Tony


----------



## rake60

cobra428  said:
			
		

> So far so good!
> 
> Tony



*WOW!*
I'll second that thought!
I'm at a total loss for words here...

Looking great Tony! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Rick


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Rick, for the encouragement.
Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tiny, Oops I mean Tony,

Like the rest of the guys I did not appreciate the scale of this engine. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Deanofid

Oh man, Tony... You're gonna have carpel tunnel so bad. Not to mention the nervous breakdown. 
If you're too busy for the breakdown, I'll do it for you. I owe you a favor.

That's a lot of tiny tapped holes!
Glad you got them done.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Thanks All,
Glad I didn't bust a tap. You would have seen a grown man cry over the internet!

Tony


----------



## joe d

Jeez Tony, a guy takes a minute for a cup of coffee and you've tapped half the holes in the world....

Looking really good :bow: :bow: glad you were able to sort that hole drilling issue.

Cheers, Joe


----------



## ozzie46

Great work Tony, I have the plans for this too. Not good enough to tackle it yet and I really didn't realize how small it is.

 This thread will be a life saver if/when I ever get started on it.

  Ron


----------



## cobra428

joe d, Dean may be right...having a hard time pushing the mouse around at work.

ozzie46, Don't know if I'm going to get through it all. I think I'm pushing the top end of my limits! I will keep pushing on till there's no hope. Then I'll push on some more.

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
Looks good. 

You sure are getting close to having a finished crankcase. I presume you will have in in your pocket for Cabin Fever.
You will have a lot of fun there. Be sure to take about three times more photos than you think you want. Then allow about 3 days to rest up after you get back.

Cabin Fever will be a well deserved break. After the Crankcase is finished up are you going to make some easy parts for a while to break the tension? 

Enjoy,
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Hi Gail,
I was thinking of jumping to the cylinders next. It will get me off the mill for a while and do some lathe stuff (the lathe hasn't been on for a month and no taping req.). This way I'll have a nice look at the engine and be even more inspired. I'll do the outside to spec. and leave the bore .005 short to finish later. I'll black oxide to stop any rust while they wait for the rest of the parts.

I don't know if my pockets are big enough to hold that :big:

Planing on many, many pics for those that can't make it. I'm thinking of leaving the credit cards home and only taking enough money to get there and back. I do have a tendency to buy at these type of affairs. Na, I'll bring the cards!

Are you planning to make NAMES, I'm going to give it my best shot.

Quick question (or maybe not). I was looking at the head drawings and wondering why EW put the plugs so close to the intake valve and cut the plug? Seems to me that it would be better at the center of the cyl so the cold intake air won't cool the plug element and no plug mod.

Tony


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

Great looking build! Look forward to seeing progress/pictures everyday!

I read earlier there was a question on the runing rotation of the engine. The 1995 N.A.M.E.S video shows what looks to be the original Whittle engine being started and running. There is a normal rotation prop mounted with a small pulley in front of the crankshaft that he wraps a thread around and pulls the engine over CCW looking at the front of the engine. Stoping the video clearly shows the engine turning CCW looking at the propeller end of the crank. Hope this may help.

Gary


----------



## cobra428

t.l.a.r. eng,
Thanks, I looked at the Yahoo site for this engine and they are all talking about mirroring the cam to make it run CCW from the front. I don't know who's right or wrong. The pic I have from the mag article shows a CCW prop. The guy on the U tube vid RJW had chimed in here and vanished said to use a pusher prop for CW rotation. I'm going to build per plans and just see what happens. I don't care CCW or CW just as long as it runs!

Tony

PS can you post the location of the vid you saw?


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
The cylinders sound like a good plan. What material are you planning on making them out of? On the off chance that I may do something further on the V8 in the not to distant future I added some 41L40 for the cylinders to have in stock. I played with some 41HT42, but the narrow fins scared me on it. One of the reasons getting the material in is so I can play with my tool post grinder some more. Incidentally I will make the cylinders at 0.656 diameter instead of EW's 0.66 nominal so they will fit a standard 5C collet on my lathe. That would make grinding them easier. I don't know if I would heat treat them or not. Would have to see how much of a pain grinding them on both ID and OD after heat treatment would be. 

I looked at the head drawing. I had not looked at it for a few years. The plug almost certainly will need to be cut down. If not, it would need to move up about 1/32 inch, and it's center line is already above the top of the combustion chamber by 0.065 inch. I think that would bury it too much. Where it is on the drawing protects is from the incoming fuel/air mixture quite a bit, so I don't think that moving it over to the center line of the cylinder would gain anything except make the machining a little bit easier for the tapped plug hole.

I used to go to NAMES for many years, but declining vision has made travel very difficult for me. I would like to go again, but doubt that I ever will be able to.

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Hi Gail,
I bought the kit from Hemingway, I got the bearings, gears, springs and a lot of round stock. Here's the color code they sent me for the mat'ls. Sorry about the peepers. 

Tony 

View attachment Engine Colour Codes.pdf


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

The video reference is a VHS video tape produced by Robert M. Bailey and was labeled N.A.M.E.S. 1995 
Not sure if available any more, my copy was ordered from Bailey Craftsman Supply back in 95-96.

Keep up the excellent build!

Gary


----------



## GailInNM

Tony,
EW recommended EN16T for the cylinders. Since it is on the Hemingway stock list that is probably what they supplied. It is quite similar to 4130 or 4140. The 41L40 is just a more free cutting flavor of 4140 so should be OK. It will be here before the Lobo is finished so I can play with it some when ever I feel like it.
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Got in a little work tonight. Ground some bits for the fin .025 thick and an around the corner radius cutter for the flange at the bottom of the cyl. At this rate it's a cyl a night.

Fin tool had to grind it down more. That was to big






Around the corner radius cutter





And walla










Time to go and rest the weary fingers

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

That's neat,Tony.
Very good tool grinding. I will have to work on mine.
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail,
The fin cutter I was sure I'd break it. Slow and easy, lots of oil. The EN16T wasn't to bad to cut. I changed my index to a fresh one and it cut like butter.

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Looking very good, Tony.
So, we should expect a whole set by.. 'round the 28th of the month, right?
; )

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Hey Dean,
Thanks! I don't know about the 28th but I'll do my best :big:

Tony


----------



## vlmarshall

:bow: It's really starting to look enginey with a cylinder on it. Looking forward to the other 7 jugs.


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Vernon,
I plan to spend this weekend in the shop....so maybe.....Mon. I'll have the full set!

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I know it's been commented on...but I can't get over how small it is.

The cylinder looks great. Very interesting project.


----------



## cobra428

Well nothing done over the weekend (honey do list). Tonight It took me 2 hours to do another. All the tools ground and at the ready! Just needed a touch up with a stone. I'm going to see if I can get another in before beddy by time!






Tony


----------



## slick95

What a COOL Engine Tony. 

Keep the pictures coming please. Really enjoying this build.

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

You asked for it Slick
I got another cyl (jug, as we call em) done. This time just an hour or a little less. I stopped "babying" the fin tool! Cobalt cuts very well.
Had to stop for a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich and a cup of coffee. So 1-1/2 hours :big:






Tony


----------



## Deanofid

PB&J. Now, that's real machinist food, Tony.  And M&M's, of course.

I know the remaining jugs are all similar, but still excited to see them all lined up.

Did you have EN16T steel, or did you use one of the 41xx types? I haven't used EN16, and am just curious as to where you got it.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Hi Dean,
I bought the kit from Hemingway's. I figured by the time I ordered 6' of this and 3' of that I could build about 6 engines. So I opted for the kit. Hemingway's is across the pond in the UK. The Brit's have the EN16T stuff, I was going to use 4140 HR Annealed. If I make a Boo-Boo I have some of that around.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_V8_Aero_Engine___Eric_Whittle.html

Tony


----------



## engineman1

That's looking fantastic, can't wait to hear it running!


----------



## cobra428

I can't wait either engineman1 
And thanks

Tony


----------



## Rob.Barrett

I've been inspired by your wonderful work Tony. I finally got around to doing something with the box of stock bar I bought from Hemingway Kits about 8 months ago which has sat in the corner of my garage ever since. I'll post some pictures when I get around to taking them. Keep up the excellent work.
Rob


----------



## Rob.Barrett

I've attached a couple of pictures of the timing gear housing. I scrapped two before I got it right!


----------



## slick95

Hey Tony,

If my math is correct you have the balance of the cylinders complete. Awaiting pics... 

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Rob, Jeff,
Thanks guys! Had to take a day or two off. I will resume tonight.

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Nice looking gears. Did you make them? What was the problem with the first gear case?
gbritnell


----------



## Rob.Barrett

You can get the gears as gear blanks, they already have the teeth and the bore, I did the lightening holes and profiling on the face. I also have to cut a keyway in the smaller gear. The first gear case I scrapped after a having a numerically dyslexic moment and the second I snapped a 1mm drill off in a breather hole. 

Looking forward to seeing the rest of the cylinders Tony, what bit were you going to tackle next?


----------



## cobra428

Rob.Barrett,
I think the front and rear cases, then the crank and rods and finish up the bottom.

Tony


----------



## cobra428

One more cyl. I'm going to try and get another done tonight. I can't put them next to each other yet (except for the middle pairs) without more operations. I have to put flats where they meet.

Here goes










I needed somethings from Enco and I said you could use a set of riffler files. Well I looked at MSC $425 a set Rof}

Enco had a set for $7. What the heck, I'll take a chance. Ran them across some A2 steel. They work and still 
have teeth to cut again. I can buy a lot of $7 sets for $425. And how often do you use them.






Tony


----------



## stevehuckss396

Thanks for the update! I've been checking 3 time a day.


----------



## cobra428

Hey Steve,
Thanks for the interest. I got my eye on your straight 8.
Got another cyl knocked off tonight.....3 more to go! Then it's put flats so that they fit next to each other.

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Gee Tony, all that work making nice round fins, then you have to cut some of it off? 
I object!

; )

Dean


----------



## slick95

Looking good Tony  I keep checking your progress too...

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Guys,
Dean, sorry to say they need flats to fit in the block. Before I do that I have to de-burr the fins. The old eye balls didn't pick up on the burrs, the camera sure did. I'm going to use a triangle file and turn the cyl in the lathe to clean them up.

Jeff, I slowed a little. I bought another Kool Mist for the lathe. I liked it so much on the mill and it was a pain to move back and forth. So, I was bizzy running air over and hidding hoses behind walls. I got tired of tripping over them.

Tony


----------



## slick95

Tony,

It is amazing the flaws, small marks, etc. that show up in the pictures. A look at George B's close up photos and you see nothing but perfection. Some day I'll learn how to get that finish using files, emery, riflers,etc. I keep watching close in hopes of catching the techniques.

Keep up the great work buddy... 

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Jeff, I know GB's stuff.....amazing. One day I'll learn how!

Tony


----------



## kvom

> One day I'll learn how!


Photoshop may be easier.  :big:


----------



## cobra428

kvom,
I had to read that about three times then.....

 Rof} Rof} Rof}

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Nothing to show much of tonight. 1-1/2 cyl. done. I picked up a collet set from Grizz. It arrived yesterday. MT3 and EO?? collets (I forgot what the tech service guy said they where). I bought the full set. MT3 will fit in the spindle of my small lathe (HF 8x12) and with an adapter MT3-4 will fit my Grizz 10x22. The only thing...I taught I had an 4-3 sleeve...I didn't. Today I ordered that and a 3-2 sleeve. It's an extension but it will allow me to use it in my rotary table which is MT2. I'll have to build a special jack to support it. This small work is screaming for collets.
 In the mean time after I finish up the cyl's I am contemplating how I will bore the front and back of the crankcases to accept the nose and gear box at the rear as well as the center crank support web and cap. Mill? 4jaw on the lathe? Mill makes the set up easier but....I don't know which way to go right now :noidea:
 Then I remembered that I had bought about 2 yrs ago a electroless nickel plating kit from Caswell (for the radial's intake and exh pipes). Why not plate the cyl's?? I tried calling them but it was after 4 and they close at 4. Tomorrow I'll find out about the shelf life on the chem's (I never open the bottles) and if it will be good for bore plating.

Collet set. This is a pic of the half set. I will make a draw bar set up for it so it won't come loose.





Thanks

Tony


----------



## stevehuckss396

Hay!!!

Whats going on, Where you at on the build? Are you making any progress. Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Twmaster

Say Cobra... I know this has been a few days, however, I think I have a spare 4-3 sleeve. IT's yours for the cost of shipping if you need it.

Lemme know ASAP as I am in the middle of moving and I'd love to see it go. NOW.


----------



## cobra428

Twmaster, stevehuckss396 ,
I been a bit sick, Had a bad cold for a week and then the snow gave me a bad back. Hope to start again soon.
Thanks
Tony


----------



## GailInNM

cobra428  said:
			
		

> I been a bit sick, Had a bad cold for a week and then the snow gave me a bad back. Hope to start again soon.



Tony,
That is against the rules. People with interesting threads are not allowed to get sick. th_rulze 
Get well soon.
Gail in NM


----------



## slick95

Get well Tony...you have work to do 

Jeff


----------



## ozzie46

Tony, have a peek here, http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=6070


 Model Engineer web site has uploaded the complete build article for free download on the Whittle V-8.

 Ron


----------



## GailInNM

Thanks for the link, Ron.
Perhaps with a set of LEGAL downloadable plans there will be more interest in the Whittle V8.
I looked at them and they are far better than the bootleg plans that I have seen. I have the original ME set, but for those who don't it will make following along on Tony's build much easier.
Gail in NM


----------



## mu38&Bg#

I might have to make the time to put this one into Solidworks and make an animation.


----------



## cobra428

Thanks for all the well wishes everyone.
Ron thanks for that link. I wanted to make a copy of the plans to keep at work....just to take a peek now and then when I had a question about something.
Twmaster Where are you in MD? PM with address, I'll send PO Money Order for shipping.
Tony


----------



## Rob.Barrett

Hi Tony,

I think it's going to take me a long time to finish this engine.
Glad to hear you're over your cold and are back in the workshop. Looking forward to some more pictures soon.

Rob


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Rob,
Nice work on yours!

Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Glad it was only a cold and not a run in with a Mongoose. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Bob,
No mongooses in this part of the world. :big:

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Is that Mongii, Mongeese or Mongooses? :big: :big:
gbritnell


----------



## cobra428

Good Question George :shrug:

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the well wishes everyone.
> Ron thanks for that link. I wanted to make a copy of the plans to keep at work....just to take a peek now and then when I had a question about something.
> Twmaster Where are you in MD? PM with address, I'll send PO Money Order for shipping.
> Tony


I'm near DC in Laurel, MD for another week or so. 

Let me make sure I have what you need and I'll send you a PM.


----------



## cobra428

OK Mike, where are you headed for?

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Oklahoma.


----------



## Deanofid

cobra428  said:
			
		

> OK Mike, where are you headed for?
> 
> Tony



Heh.. You had it at "OK", Tony.
; )

DW


----------



## kvom

From the ME site:



> The engine contains 550 components, over 280 of which are moving parts.



That'sa challenge.  :bow:


----------



## cobra428

Well folks
I got a few more parts done tonight! One more barrel to go. And it's in the oven. 

Kvom 550 parts. I'm down to 440 now :big:






Tony


----------



## cobra428

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> Is that Mongii, Mongeese or Mongooses? :big: :big:
> gbritnell


George, I think it's mongoosie....essess :big: not sure I'll have to look it up in my Funk and Wagnels

Very Interresting! :big: but.....

Who cares if one is after you.....pronunciation don't matter!!!

I think holy sh...t is the term!!

Tony


----------



## T70MkIII

I'm really enjoying your build, Tony. Looking forward to your next installment.


----------



## SBWHART

Hi Tony

Great build very interesting.

Downloaded and printed the article from model engineer for a little bed time reading (some people read detective novels, i read engine builds). Little confused with the crankshaft throws, I guess you've got that part sorted in your mind, the crankshaft and cam shaft will be a real challenge to machine, looking forward to seeing how you tackle them but I'm sure you'll make a great job.

Have fun

Stew


----------



## Jasonb

For anyone interested in taking this engine on or just a bit more background info Model Engineer Mag have just uploaded the build articles onto their site.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=6070


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Tony, don't think of the amount of pieces, just make progress when you can and you'll be surprised how fast it goes. I find that if you think about it makes it harder like watching a clock. By the way, I downloaded the build article probably like hundreds of others have and am thinking of making one bank of the engine, and inline four, that is when this V-twin is finished.
George


----------



## SBWHART

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> By the way, I downloaded the build article probably like hundreds of others have and am thinking of making one bank of the engine, and inline four, that is when this V-twin is finished.
> George



George

I had a similar idea but cutting it down the middle to give a V4:- sorry for going off topic

Stew


----------



## cobra428

Hi Guys
EW also did a "Cirrus" which is a 4 cyl inline. I have an article in SIC mag with a larger version Cirrus. Somebody out there sells castings for it.

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Well, finally got into the shop tonight. Been bizzy at work and had a few things to take care of around the house.
I tried to clean up the burrs on the flats using the fin cutting tool back at the lathe. Oops I .......two cyl's. Oh well. :redface2:

I have varying degrees of burrs but the lathe and the fin cutter seams the only way. I guess I have to be more gentle than I was. 
And I was gentle. Tried a needle file but....that didn't work to my satisfaction.

But here's some pics



























Thanks for checking in
Tony


----------



## stevehuckss396

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Been bizzy at work and had a few things to take care of around the house.



You know if you quit your job and burn down the house you could have it done right now. ;D


----------



## cobra428

I thought of that. If you ever saw the movie "The worlds fastest Indian" I said that's great. All I need is a mill, lathe, cot and a frig. Oh, and a potty too.
I'm easy

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

cobra428  said:
			
		

> All I need is a mill, lathe, cot and a frig. Oh, and a potty too.
> Tony



Shoot, I have those things, Tony. I'm still slow.

Too bad about the two cylinders. Sorry to hear it! You're such a bounce back kind of guy, though, we know you'll get it taken care of. 

Still pulling for you. Thanks for the pics.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean,
Thanks for the kind comments. My astrological sign is Taurus the bull (not that I believe in that "stuff"). Maybe there's something to it.....I am bull headed.. :big:

Tony


----------



## ozzie46

Sorry to hear about the goof up. I know you sort it out.

 Very nice work I might add. I might not post often but I follow faithfully.
 I am in awe of people like you.
 Ron


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Ron for the very kind comments.

It's not the first parts I messed up and it won't be the last.....try try again!!

Tonight there will be 8. Then the deburring fun

Tony


----------



## kendo

Hi Tony
      Don't you just hate it when that happens, i've kicked myself more
      often than i care to mention, when its happend to me, got a lot of
      bruises.
      Best of luck with the rest of the build, and happy de-burring

               Ken


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Ken,
I'm stopping off at the hobby shop on the way home to get some stainless wire wheels for the deburr party.

Tony


----------



## cobra428

No deburring tonight, that's tomorrow nights fun :big:

But now there are 8
















I started to deburr the #5 cyl. I used a triangle needle file and started with the wire wheel

Then the stomach took over. I ate before going to the shop but after 4 hrs. I'm done.
Time for the left over cold fried chicken and a cold beer. Man that's good after all the
machining. I'm sure my Cardiologist would disagree.

After this I'm going back on the mill and start with the crank's center support...mill the front and rear to accept the nose and tail timing housing. I'm trying to break up the build from the multiples and the 1'ces and 2'ces. Break up the monotony.

Thanks for peeking in

Tony


----------



## slick95

Nice going Tony

Man that looks great with all eight   

Jeff


----------



## kustomkb

Great work Tony, they look good.

When you say you are going to do something it gets done.

A man of his word gets top marks in my book.


----------



## cobra428

Jeff, kustomkb

Thanks guys

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

Looks great, Tony.
One part at a time is how it gets done.
Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Gail
Sometimes it looks insurmountable.... but like you said..... one by one

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Looking great Tony. I just love the looks of this thing. Can't wait for a new installment on your build.


----------



## cobra428

Mike Thanks,
I love this little baby. I saw it on the Hemmingway site 2 years ago. I said na but it kept calling my name, all the way from across the pond.

I kept hearing "Tony.....you want to build me"  :big:

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

I saw them on the Hemmingway site too. OMG the cost is truly frightening. But ooooh soooo sexy.


----------



## cobra428

Mike,
The beauty of this engine is it's all bar stock. You can get the plans for free from the ME web site. Go back in this post ...a page or 2...there is a link to it. Build notes too

Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Great work, maybe a 9 cylinder and that 9th could be my H&M. ;D ???

Seriously good going. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Deanofid

Great going, Tony. Eight is enough, even if you have to make ten!
It's looking fantastic.

Dean


----------



## Twmaster

That thing is outside of my skills envelope for now Tony. I'll just thrill myself watching yours come together for now.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Tony, when you get to this point you just have to keep looking at it because it's starting to look like an engine, I know I do with mine. I keep stacking the built pieces together knowing that sooner or later it will be completed. Keep up the good work.
George


----------



## cobra428

Bob, Dean,
Thanks for the kind remarks

Mike,
This is on the hairy edge of my skill level, hence the remake of parts. But I'm learning!

Thanks George,
I know what you are saying....I can't keep my eyes off of it! I have to restrain myself from getting into the rush mode now
Nice and easy...steady as she goes!

Tony

PS Just called the job.....closed due to snow...... th_wav

Whatever will I due today :shrug:

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}


----------



## ref1ection

Updates every couple of hours should help you pass the time.
 th_wwp

btw it's looking really good

Ray


----------



## cobra428

ref1ection
Thanks,
I just finished a leasurly breakfest and headed to the shop now

Tony


----------



## kendo

Hey Tony
        She's starting to look real sweet now fella. boy you where quick
        with that de-burring lol. Gotta take my hat off to you.

        Don't go rushing now, this is a real piece of art. 
        can't wait to see it finished no matter how long it takes.

                       Ken


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Excellent stuff Tony. It just keeps getting more exciting.


----------



## cobra428

Ken, Zee
Thanks for the continued interest.
Still have to deburr!

Being snowed in....time to make more parts

Center crank cap

See, I didn't make a mistake..I was just squaring up material for future use.
Messed up cam hole left over




















































Mating parts organizer





Back to the shop for a very scary cut...holes in front, rear and cap for the crank
I think I'll stop for lunch now and think it out very carefully

Tony


----------



## SBWHART

Lovely work Tony

How many of those tiny parts have you lost on the floor for the shop gremlins to collect.

Hop you enjoyed your lunch

Stew


----------



## cobra428

Stew,
None yet so far....but wait for the rocker bushing. 1/8OD x 1/8L 093ID. Instead of making 16 I think I'll make 20+.

Those bench Gremlins will be be at work. I try to work over a bath towel but.....they still manage to steal their share when I'm not looking.

 :shrug:

Tony


----------



## SBWHART

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Stew,
> None yet so far....but wait for the rocker bushing. 1/8OD x 1/8L 093ID. Instead of making 16 I think I'll make 20+.
> 
> Those bench Gremlins will be be at work. I try to work over a bath towel but.....they still manage to steal their share when I'm not looking.
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> Tony



They may start to build their own engine :big:

Stew


----------



## solver

Wonderfully small V8, and excellent work, cobra428 :bow:.

Also the freely available plans make quite a teaser ;D.


----------



## cobra428

SBWHART,
The way I drop parts with my fat fingers....they just might. scratch.gif where the heck could it have gone :shrug:

solver
Ahhhh it's calling your name to, I see.

Well this is it for today. It was so nice to spend the whole day in the shop.

I bet you guys where saying Tony will be sweating bullets on this cut. Well you where wrong...I wasn't sweating bullets.......I was sweating canon shells :big:

So far all looks good. I messaged the hole side to side with progressively larger end mills,
measuring and adjusting. All measures out within .0005

Fingers crossed for tomorrow when I turn it over.

Set up...fine adjustment tool used to bring it home







I touched off to get me in the ball park





I kept measuring side to side to get it centered

Centered drilled to the cap





Time for the bore










A boring job done!





Tomorrow the other side.

Thanks for the peek

Tony


----------



## slick95

Holy Crap Tony,

I slowly scrolled down through the pictures not quite sure what the machine process was to be then...WOW the large hole bored in the end. I would have been "blanking cannon balls." 

Man you have to have lots of patience to run that boring bar through all that work. Great Job!!!

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Hey Thanks Jeff,
You know baby!!!....Slick 95...Traffic at your 12 o'clock...fast mover...opposite direction...altitude unknown. I keep looking for joy.

Tony


----------



## 1hand

Tony;

Nice work there. Man that thing is tiny. You most really have patience, and a great eye for detail.

Matt


----------



## cobra428

Hey Thanks Matt,
I just love the looks of the little baby. And it's a sweet runner. Search internet for U Tube of Whittle V8. A guy in the UK shows it running

SWEEEET!

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, nice job on the boring but if I could make one suggestion the next time you need to set up the block in the vise for some operation. Instead of clamping on the small surface at the top of the V use a small V block to hold against the crankcase faces. It will be much more secure and it will distribute the pressure onto a larger surface. It's not a criticism by any means but with the trials and tribulations you've had with the build it would be a shame to have the block move the least little bit when you're cutting on it. 
George


----------



## Deanofid

Good going, Tony. 
I admit to being a little nervous for you. It's an exciting build, and you've done great stuff here.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

George,
 Your wisdom well exceeds my talent. You are so right. Can I call you with a pic of my ignoramus set up before I cut. :big:

 I never thought of that. For some reason I think of V blocks only in the horizontal. Don't know why but thank for the tip. No insult or anything ever. To learn from a master is my humbling experience. Thank you sir.

Dean, same goes for you...don't get nervous.....if I goof well $2 worth of Al and work will solve that

To both of you guys
Thanks for the help. I knew this engine would kick my Ass one way or another. The funny thing is I knew it and I bought it to learn and learning I am.

The both of you know how (Bob..Maryack ,Gailin NM is there too). Now, I want to know too. Take me under your wing (s)
This site is the best if you want to learn and you guys make it so.

 So here goes!

Did the other side









































Dean and George or George and Dean, (don't want to insult either of you)

You guys are the best. If I can learn an oz a day from the both of you 

 :bow: :bow: :bow:

I marked the cases (with a punch stamp) to keep there relationships but it got sanded away. Time to re stamp so I know how to put them back together again

Well if any thing I'm getting better with my photography :big:

Thanks guys

Tony


----------



## deere_x475guy

Just poped in to check on your progress...looking great Tony!


----------



## cobra428

deere_x475guy,

Thanks Man,
I'm trying and trying

Tony


----------



## GailInNM

"Tomorrow the other side."
It's amazing how fast the nights pass on the East Coast.  ;D

Gets had to wait when things are going so well.

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Well Gail,
I ate dinner.... then what.....TV ?? I drifted to the shop then.... next thing I know...................

Tony


----------



## kustomkb

Looking good!!


----------



## Deanofid

You're not the only one who's learning here, Tony. There's a lot in this thread for all of us.
It's a pleasure watching your work.

Dean


----------



## ariz

I'm following with great interest Tony, you're doing a very nice work :bow:


----------



## slick95

VERY NICE :bow:

I look forward to your next set-up. Keep at it Tony!

Jeff


----------



## ozzie46

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> You're not the only one who's learning here, Tony. There's a lot in this thread for all of us.
> It's a pleasure watching your work.
> 
> Dean





  So true Dean.  Keep up the good work Tony.


 Ron


----------



## cobra428

OK.... tonight's adventure
Crankcase Nose





4 jaw got some exercise too










Didn't want to push the bearing in just yet





Tomorrow I'll fillet and blend










Traced the case outline
Tomorrow the saw and rotary table





Yes, it's true....I got all swarfted up tonight :big:

Thanks for looking in
Tony


----------



## Deanofid

Well, this wasn't near as nerve wracking for me as the big boring job!
; )

As always, Tony, good watching your progress.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Dean,
That's it for the main case. Just a little radius groove down the length on the top.
It's all gravy now.....yeah right.

Tony


----------



## gbritnell

Tony, do the bolts that come up through the oil pan into the top deck of the engine get filed flush or just squared off?
George


----------



## cobra428

Hi George,
The deck gets a radius cut tangent to that edge where the bolts come out. I'm just waiting till I have the front and back mounted to make the cut. It's like the oil pan but smaller and full length thru front and rear to match the profile (1/16dp 1/16R).

Tonight's fun
Radius the nose






Using this setup (fine adjustment tools in the backround)










The inside





The outside
Don't know if those spot faces will stay




















That's all folks

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

That looks beautiful, Tony. Really nice!

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Dean,
The more I look at it (and I do look at it and pet it :big Brass bolts would add a nice contrast. I'm just not sure of their stress capability in this application. I'm pretty sure they'd be fine but.....

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

cobra428  said:
			
		

> Thanks Dean,
> The more I look at it (and I do look at it and pet it :big Brass bolts would add a nice contrast. I'm just not sure of their stress capability in this application. I'm pretty sure they'd be fine but.....
> 
> Tony



Sure can't blame you for giving it a fond caress.
Maybe George would know if brass cap screws would be strong enough. Are they 2-56?

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Dean,
2-56 front and soon to be rear 0-80's up from the pan

Tony


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Nicely done Tony.
Very exciting build.


----------



## ozzie46

Tony, Looking great. 

 Keep up the good work.


 Ron


----------



## gbritnell

Now that's a set up!!! Great work on the radiusing Tony. As far as using brass, I wouldn't use it in a critical area. The tensile on brass is about 1/3 of CRS. Although I don't generally use socket head screws I think they would look good on an aircraft type engine. I think using stainless socket head screw would even be that much better.
George


----------



## cobra428

Thanks George,
I forgot about the plans on the web. It would be a lot easier for you to look at them than me explaining about features in the parts. I can't use my hands to explain!!

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=6070

Those are stainless Hex heads screws I'm using except for the pan those are steel soc heads I'd like to do something about that but no room for a nut driver spot face. Still thinking on that.

Zee,Ron thanks for your continuing support

Tony


----------



## ariz

compliments Tony, you're doing a very neat and beautiful work with this project :bow:


----------



## cobra428

Thank you very much Ariz

Tony


----------



## NickG

It is looking splendid - very nice indeed Tony. Very complex too! Hats off to you.

Nick


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Nick,

Tony


----------



## slick95

Nicley accomplished Tony 

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Jeff,
I working as fast as I can to get to the Radial !!!

Tony


----------



## slick95

You need a Concept Models 1/3 Fleet for that radial...would that be a BLAST...

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Hi Jeff,
I don't think I heard of Concept Models but you never know. Soon as I search I'll go....Oh Yeah. The radial is 1/4 scale. I was thinking of a 1/4 scale Stearman even though it had a P&W. Your right the Fleets had a J5. Decisions, decisions, decisions. I have a little time to think that one over. I need to make a DH-51 for the V8 too.
It looks much like a Gypsy Moth.

Got a little done tonight (very little)

Started the rear timing gear cover.




















Pasted a 6mm drill rod from front to rear, went through like butter....thank god!

Time to do some CAD work to get the cords. I know it looks a bit large but I plan to cut the out line then saw the cover portion off, then cut the gear cavity's


Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Tony, this is coming along beautifully. A scale DH-51 would be the bee's knees with that up front. :bow:


----------



## cobra428

Mike Thanks,
I can hear that DH-51 just purrrring along now! Even though I'm a giant scale high power acro guy.....It would be nice!

Jeff I just thought of it WACO YMF! Even though it's cowled .....but sweet!

If anybody is interested I did some CAD work for the rear case coords.
PDF DXF attached

Tony

PS the below pdf and dfx no good. I realized that I didn't set the upper outside radii (.06) to the proper size to account for a washer. 0-80 washer .188d. I'll fix tonight 

View attachment C__Drawings_Whittle V8_REAR CASE.pdf


View attachment REAR CASE.dxf


----------



## Twmaster

Sir Geoffrey sure made em' purdy. One day I'll build me a nice Tiggie.


----------



## cobra428

You Bet Mike

Tony


----------



## slick95

Man, Tony I just like looking at that engine...its soooo Awesome!!!

Yeah, the YMF would be the ticket but I might find every excuse not to fly it 'cause I'd be skered to ball it up..

Anyway...I'll let you back to the current fun...

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Hi Jeff,
I was emailing the engine mfg'er and he sent me this pic. This is a guy in Denmark with a built radial on a plane I don't recognise. But still nice to look at.







Looks like a nice CAP 21 between the wings on the right

Tony


----------



## BAH101

Looks like an Antonov AN-2 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2


----------



## cobra428

BAH101,
I think your right! Nice one

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Looks like an AN-2M. Notice the shape of the top of the vertical fin.

Great looking plane. Nifty radial engine.


----------



## cobra428

Twmaster.
I have the casting for that niffty radial.
















One day I'll man up and finish it!

Tony


----------



## metalmad

Hi cobra
very nice whittle 
im loving every post 
and it looks like u will have another great project with the radial
hope u post as u go with that one too.
cheers pete.


----------



## slick95

Tony,

Quit showing the pictures of the Radial 

Here is the Fleet I was referring to. I want one bad but don't have the time to invest in another project:

http://conceptmodelsllc.com/Site/cover.html

Jeff


----------



## GailInNM

I had seen this before, but I don't think I ever posted a link to it. It is John Downie's 3d CAD animated model of the Whittle V8 being assembled. Less than a minute long.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPl1cdllUMQ&feature=channel[/ame]
Gail in NM


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Just spent the afternoon in the shop working on the rear crank and gearbox housing it looks as though we are both at about the same stage of filling the scrap bin. this is my progress so far
good luck 
Ray


----------



## slick95

Hey Tony,

Haven't seen any activity from you. Hope you're just very busy in the shop   

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Ray,
Very Nice. Looks like we are at about the same point. Keep me posted!

Jeff,
I've been have some lower back problems. I went to the Doc's and now doing physical therapy. I hoping to get on my feet soon.

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Hope physio is going well and you can continue soon. The rear housing didnt go quite to plan I earlier broke a 12 BA tap & scrapped a part trying to spark the remains out so decided to do all fixings in 10 BA I milled .805 dia then tapped the 5 holes 10 BA as you can see from photo the thread broke out through the side. The .805 dia & .9 pcd are to size & the difference between 10BA & 12 BA is .016 on dia or .008 a side and it was enough to break through I can only blame old age for the oversight, just found your cad drg I could have used it 2 days ago! obviously some of the tolerancing on this job is going to be critical. The plan now is to use studs for this fixing as per EWs engine so I will super glue studs in then take a run round the .805 bore with a small woodruff cutter to clean up, this should only remove the tops of a very small portion of thread in the bore and leave the tops of the studs complete. The other jobs are to form rads on the top of the 5 screws either source a .06 corner rad cutter or get the file & emery to work, the other is to remove .3 service end from the front of the .833 dia which I used for location. 
Keep you posted soon
Cheers 
Ray


----------



## cobra428

tombstone,
It looks to good to give up on it. Hopfully I get to the shop tonight and start mine. I did a little quickie and got some blue on the surface. I have to mark things out tonight. I had to wait for my jeans to dry. Still had on the Ziut Ziut from work :big: :big: and then ate dinner. Hopfully this weekend I make a little head way. I can tell your from the UK.....BA taps.... I have a set but I doing mine in UNC 0's....1's and 2's. I did a lot of engineering for BT, so I know about those "fixings". I was what the heck are fixings? Oh, you mean hardware. I bought a set of BA's for my Stuart D10, I think they have rusted away by now. I'll have to look in the draw to see if there is a big orange spot :big:
I've got to do a little CAD time to get the coords on all of that. Maybe I'll have a beverage and play with the computer tonight!

BR
Tony


----------



## steamer

hope your feeling better Tony...

Dave


----------



## slick95

Right on Tony, you're "back" at it.

Glad you are feeling better 

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

steamer, slick95,
Thanks for your continuing support.

Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Glad your back's back and you too of course. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Well the rear housing is finished, obviously filing is not one of my core skills any more this would have been a great part to make in one hit on a twin spindle mill turn, the alignment front to back is OK with the phosy bronze bushes in place & bearings.I was looking at the assembly while having a couple of Becks when I thought that I could have the best of both worlds by putting the engine on top of the TV so I could watch TV & the engine both at the same time,I told my wife who said it could also go to recycling with the old beer cans it is locked up safe in the shop now. I am having a couple of days off now & then I am going to start on the camshaft & crank I have never machined anything like this before & dont think it is worth making any more of the moving parts until they are made. I will let you know how I get on probably in about 6 months time! Your right about the UK I am based in the Isle of Man
Cheers
Ray


----------



## cobra428

Hi Ray,
Looks Very Nice. Your gaining on me, we had a big storm here and I had no power for 5 days. That's why I haven't been heard from in awhile. I spent most of last night looking for my chimney cap. Found! Two houses down from me and it survived. I have other small damage but OK. We where getting hit with 50mph constant and gusts to 90.

It's funny I'm a Becks fan too!

Tony

PS I'm looking at the breather. Shouldn't that go into the crankcase (main) rather than a gear cast hole?


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Glad you survived the storm OK we get weather similar to that occasionally being in the middle of the Irish Sea though haing no power is a major hassle. All that I have got done so far is what is in the photo probably the easiest bits to do being all in ally & I have a large supply of 65mm L65 (2014 in US?) bar ends which is very useful. I have drawn cam in s.works and it hasnt made it look any easier just that I have dimnd it to suit myself. The breather is definitely shown going thro the gear case on my drg but for some reason I drilled it on the opposite side must have been a senior moment, this begs the question how does c.case pressure reach the gear pocket, looking on the top view to the left of cross section view there appears to be a hole shown just below the 1/32cut back for l.h. cylinder this is on the face of the .833 dia but there is no reference to it, I think that I will drill thro from the gear pocket side tight against the pocket wall next to the breather to break thro into c.case probably at about 2mm dia. Next stop now is to get the lathe fired up and start grooving.
Cheers 
Ray


----------



## cobra428

Hi Ray,
I was thinking of drilling a hole at the bottom quadrant of the lower gear cavity. Oil from the oil pan might dribble in and lube the gears (which was going to be my next ? ).

I thought I was wrong on which side the breather hole was. 1st angle drawings I get dizzy when I look at them. ;D

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Going by what EW said in the instructions I got with the kit the 5cc of oil should cover bottom of big end at BDC and at 7000 rpm should produce a thick oil mist my thinking would be to let case pressure force mist through hole to lube gears, if hole was below case oil level and oil fed into gear pocket I think with the amount of clearance between gears and wall it could act similar to a geared oil pump and possibly fire oil out of the breather may be! Looking at the way it is working I wouldnt think it the gears will need a lot of lube. I think I am a long way from worrying about the way it will perform at 7000rpm!!! 
Cheers
Ray


----------



## cobra428

Hi Ray,
Your right we have a ways to go still. I do like thinking things out ahead of time though. If I were a cat I'd be dead from curiosity by now. I see that little hole you are talking about below the 1/32 cyl clear. That might be the answer. Mist through there to lube the gears.

I'm going to try and get some stuff done tonight. Tomorrow, I'll be fixing up some storm damage and on the hunt for missing lawn furniture!

Tony


----------



## Maryak

cobra428  said:
			
		

> 1st angle drawings I get dizzy when I look at them. ;D
> Tony



3rd angle drawing is, I feel, much more logical in the way it represents the 3 standard views. Having being taught engineering drawing in the days when 1st angle was the standard in Oz, I had your problem in reverse.

Not that I could draw worth a damn but reading and working to a drawing is difficult when everything is back to front from your mindset.

Learning 2D Cad has been a big help in getting me a little more modernised, not to mention that the finished drawing no longer looks like a page of fly s$$t. I HATE INDIAN INK and those nibs which apply it everywhere except where it's suppose to be, followed by the Tee/Set square which spreads it even further from its intended target.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## cobra428

Maryak  said:
			
		

> I HATE INDIAN INK and those nibs which apply it everywhere except where it's suppose to be, followed by the Tee/Set square which spreads it even further from its intended target.



I hear ya Bob, been there done that!
I learned manual drafting in HS....college.....the past 25 yrs I been on the computer. I almost miss the manual. It was more like artistry! :big:

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

cobra428  said:
			
		

> It was more like artistry! :big:
> 
> Tony



Amen, brudder!

DW


----------



## cobra428

Well things are not all good. I think that I approached building this part bassakwards.

I'm sure hoping the alum thing works. I broke a drill bit off a #53. If I have to remake it, it won't be the first time I remade a part.

So here goes





Man that looks good





Well while I have it here I'll drill the radius holes





I can drill the mounting holes





Well I can drill the cover holes so that they will be perfect when I slice the cover off.....Not

 :wall: :wall: :wall:

Oh well, does the Alum trick work on drills?
I did a search but the traffic here to heavy tonight. I'll try again in the morn.
Time for a beverage

Tony


----------



## ksouers

Tony,
The alum trick should work. It's for steel broken off in non-ferrous metals.


----------



## 1hand

good luck! Stay with it.you'll getter. 

Matt


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Guys,
I don't have that much time into the part but what the heck. I'll give it a shot

Tony


----------



## cobra428

Decision Made!






Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Really sorry about the drill break it was looking good up till then & I know how much work goes in to getting this far.This is the way I went to make this part if it is of any use, like cnc programming there can be a hell of a lot of programs to end up with the same part.In the image are some of my earlier attempts that are heading to the scrap bin the part on the right is a small fixture I made to put the centre of rotation round the cam hole the cap head screw is M6 & the screw in the centre ¼-28unf with the head turned to a good fit in cam hole with the usual .5625 between centres.
1.with 65 mm bar stock, turn .833 dia drill & bore .238 dia thro, bore for bearing & part off plus I left .142 length plus .3 as chuck jaws on rotary table have a large chamfer at front.
2. grip on .833 dia face to .338length & flat bottom to depth I used 11mm slot drill
3.cover plate. on 65mm turn a spigot about 1/8 long I did it to11/32dia as I have a 5c collet part off plus.
4.grip on 11/32 face to .05 and bore .25dia x .1 deep I used ¼ FC3 cutter
5. on mill. Mill 2 flats approx 1.2 a/f grip in vice on flats with .833 dia up centre .833 to spindle & offset .5625 drill & ream1/4
6.turn a location peg to suit ¼ cam bore & bore in cover plate assemble 2 together with locn peg & clamp together grip on flats in vice & in the scrap area drill & tap 2 x M6 or whatever & countersink attach housing to fixture and bolt cap in place with 2 M6 c.sks
7. grip in rotary table, centre on mill I used a scriber in spindle to mark .9 pcd & 5 hole posn & drill tapping size thro. Remove cover & screw ¼ unf screw below level of .805 bore & mill .805dia.
8.remove fixture grip on .833 dia replace cover mark out .76 dia & tangent sides & drill tap holes remove cap & tap all holes open out cap holes to clearance size, hacksaw cap to approx size & bolt cap to housing with washers under top 5 screws as a guide for milling .45 rad.
9. transfer to fixture grip in rotary table rough mill to tops of 5 rads & finish mill up to washers at .45 rad I used 3mm carbide cutter .
10. remove fixture replace cap, grip on .833dia and mill .38 rad to finished depth and 2 tangent flats up to 2 end top screws with washers to depth.
11. mark profile from c.case. make up a spigot to locate in .432dia bore with M6 thread & bolt thro from c.case bearing bore, grip on spigot in rotary & mill remaining c.case profile and c.case fixing holes
12. destroy top 5 rads with file & emery just like me.
Hope you are not offended by me suggesting this if it doesnt suit bin it 
Good Luck
Ray
download is rubbish will send images separately


----------



## tombstone

hi Tony
cheers Ray


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Tombstone,
I haven't had a chance to get in the shop. There is been to much clean up, fix up and lawn furniture hunting after the storm we had. :big:

I should be in the shop tonight with a back brace on!

Tony


----------



## Artie

Hi Tony, mate Im feeling for you. Spent 3 months laying on my back 20 years ago, debilitating pain which quickly saps the strength. Im fine now with only occasional painful reminders... I hope you are soon as well. Besides .... loving your work..

Artie


----------



## Maryak

cobra428  said:
			
		

> I should be in the shop tonight with a back brace on!
> Tony



I wish I'd had the good sense to put mine on today. All the timber, cement and fittings arrived for our pergola. Piece by piece into the garage so it will still be there tomorrow. The only question now is, "Will I."

The build is still going great, what's a couple of tikifus in such a difficult exercise.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## metalmad

looking great guys
one day if I ever get the guts.the whittle is on my ever expanding list of things id love to make
learning a lot from u 
cheers pete.


----------



## Rob.Barrett

Hi Tony,
Hope the back's getting better. It must be something about people who build model engines, I broke my spine about 15 years ago.
Here's my efforts so far. Keep up the great work.

Rob


----------



## cobra428

Very nice Rob,
I'm planning to get in a little shop time tonight. A little, don't want to push things to much. I just started to feel better yesterday!

Tony

I like the lighting, looks like it's gold anodized!


----------



## SAM in LA

WOW!

I'm trying to turn a little CRS flywheel and drill a couple of holes in it.

I just got back from buying a few drill bits.

Your engine looks fantastic.

SAM


----------



## cobra428

Rob, Ray,
This is pretty cool. 3 of us just about at the same point in the build. We can really compare notes!
Now all we need is GailinNM to drag out his parts. Then there will be 4!
Tony


----------



## tombstone

Rob Tony
Tony Hope back is OK now & not holding the job up
Rob Build looks v.good the cap head screws look really cool on the end caps are they BA or UN
Did 2 hrs on the camshaft did not want to use topslide scale for position of cams so marked out on surface plate I think it would have been easier to transfer DRO from mill to lathe
Good Luck Guys
Ray


----------



## GailInNM

Tony, Rob & Ray,
Great looking work by all of you. I have been following along, but have not posted in a while. Before getting to the heads and valves, I wanted to have my hand at some small valves so I have been building a "Tiny" of PutPutMans. It has smaller valves than the Whittle so I thought it would be good experience. I am shut down right now doing some modifications on the lathe, but that will be finished today or tomorrow.

Since I last posted I did get the cylinders all turned and lapped to size. I still need to cut the flats on the fins. I made them out of 41L40. So I am creeping up on it a little bit at a time. I also got the glow plugs in as I found some on sale at a fair price. They had 10 left so I bought all of them.

You guys are giving me inspiration to get back on the project some more. 

Gail in NM


----------



## cobra428

Well the back was felling better. I'll let you know tomorrow how better!

Come on Gail join the party!!

Got quit a bit done tonight





Thanks Ray for the flats tip....you saved my Whittle ;D




It actually lines up




The inside




The outside




I'm thinking studs and nuts




No broken things....I was going to tap but my 1-72 where ....shirt. I got to order some new ones. Don't want to break a tap now!
Time for the Rotary Table

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

"No broken things". Woo-hoo!
It fits up nice, Tony. Glad you could get into the shop.

Dean


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

Good that your back in the shop. 

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## metalmad

soooo many holes 
scary very scary lol
looking fantastic guys
cheers Pete


----------



## cobra428

Bob, Pete,
Thanks

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Glad your back in the shop & got the chips flying.The part looks good, the critical bit is done the cam & crank holes I can see this finished for the weekend. How do you plan to do the rads mine need improving somehow. EW recommends studs & nuts for the cover plate & hex head for both end caps.The cam is in the lathe with the first cuts done the marking out may not be the preferred method but it worked for me, so far so good.
Cheers
Ray


----------



## cobra428

Hi Ray,
I plan on turning a stepped pin, 1/4" and the other to fit the screw hole. Pin in vise (1/4) the other in screw hole slowly rotating part as I bring the mill closer and closer (no climb cut or say bye bye). This will be after roughing. I know, don't make much sense but I post pics tonight. Hopefully all that shaping will be over with.

Did you make the cam fixture yet or are you going with spindex or RT?

Tony


----------



## Deanofid

That you in the new avatar, Tony?

Snappy lookin' feller, you are.

Dean


----------



## cobra428

Yup, That's me Dean.

Now to the V8. I got a lot done tonight,so here goes
Located the screw holes with a pin gauge after centering RT adjusted vise to pin.





Moved out proper distance...and away we go.





The set up





The cuts





Large radius cuts





The dig out





More to cut










Till Tomorrow

Tony


----------



## Twmaster

Totally amazing tony. :bow:


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Mike

Tony


----------



## Maryak

Tony,

I'm impressed, very neat. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Deanofid

That's some very handy work, Tony. It's an impressive looking thing, for sure.

Dean


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Wow Tony. Were it me I don't know how I could continue...I'd worry so much about possibly messing up the next operation. Nice going.


----------



## gbritnell

Nice work Tony. The extra time cutting around the bolt bosses gives the part a more professional look to it, like a casting. You fellows are making good progress on your engines.
gbritnell


----------



## slick95

Nicely Done Tony   

Good looking part...

Jeff


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Guys

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Nice one, it looks really good rotating round drill hole it sure beats filing get youself a Becks for good work. Have finished cam blank & am going to use the fixture for milling I think the rotating part of fix should give a consistent back rad-cam flank tangent point for all the 16 cams and the fixture will give a good location in 3 points on the bearing surfaces.The only problem I could see that with it being a sliding fit in the fixture there may be a small ammount of radial play which could show up in the milling one thing that might tighten it up is to drill & tap into the bore on all 3 blocks and put a nylon or PTFE plug into it & nip up with a screw so cam rotates but there is no radial movement. Make a start on fixture next
Cheers
Ray


----------



## cobra428

Hi Ray,
Glad your starting the cam first! It really scares me. So please a show and tell.

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
The turning on the cam is finished?? I ground a left hand .045 wide groove tool out of 10mm sq HSS and mounted upside down in front tool post & ran spindle left hand it worked well.I assembled the bits into the crankcase & as you can see the gear end of cam is about .08 too long. I checked all measurements etc. & could find nothing wrong all the cam lobes line up well with the guide holes the centre journal is in the right place & the 2.566 cam dimn is right to the 2.566 calc dimn between the inner case walls.The only thing I can think of now is the drg is wrong if the .380 length of 7/32 dia. was .300 it would be right as if all dimns are nominal the internal face to bottom of gear housing would be .295 which would give .005 clearance for gear.I am going to leave for time being do you guys have any thoughts about this, at least it is a metal on condition so is recoverable.Starting on the milling fix now.
Cheers
Ray


----------



## cobra428

tombstone,
Very nice. I'll have to look at the numbers. Thanks for the heads up

Tony


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Oops! the drg error is described a few pages further on in the instructions & it is .3" dimn. I had turned the pages into a book & stapled over the alterations must read everything before cutting next time.The fix is nearly finished just the indexing holes to do.
Cheers
Ray


----------



## SBWHART

I thought you guys on this build would be interested in this link.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_album.asp?a=10685

Unfortunatly the video won't run I don't fine the ME site very good with its IT.

Any way enjoy the pics

Stew


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Hows it going hope your back is OK now.Well the machining on the cam is finished it actually went better than I thought it would & probably took about 8hrs on the lathe & mill it needs filing & emerying etc now.The fixture took a while to make I let the 3 uprights into the base plate as it was easier to align square.I drilled the index holes using the PCD feature on the mill DRO as 2 lots of 8 holes & altered the start angle to suit. I turned a blank up to use to align the fixture & experiment with different cutters, the cutter I eventually used was 4mm 3 flute carbide centre cutting endmill by Ezi Diaroc at 1500 rpm the others tried were 3mm slot, 3mm FC3 & 3mm endmill.The cam needs to be secure in the fix with no end float as it will try to unscrew itself out of the fix I secured the 5/32 end with a cup washer & 8BA bolt & washer and lubed it all with coppaslip grease(anti seize grease).The lathe image is the front hub of an AJS Stormer vintage moto-x bike restore project my son has started so I am going to keep out of the shop for a while.
Stew  thanks for interesting link I see in this months MEW there is a new web editor so IT might improve now.
Cheers
Ray


----------



## tombstone

still problems with download more photos 
Ray


----------



## cobra428

sbwhart Thanks for that link. Google Whittle V8....there is a utube vid

tombstone Very nice. Your getting way ahead of me. I haven't seen the shop for awhile

Tony


----------



## JakeHalstrom

Great pictures, keep them coming. I have a lot to learn.
Appreciate it.
          Jake 

http://sites.google.com/site/antiquebriggsandstratton/


----------



## cobra428

Thanks Jake,
I won't be posting for awhile. Doc said take it easy on the back. Things got worse and worse. So I'm on med's but it will take a while for it to kick in.

Tombstone I'm sure will be posting to keep us interested

This getting old stuff is for the birds! I still think like I'm 21

Tony


----------



## Maryak

cobra428  said:
			
		

> This getting old stuff is for the birds! I still think like I'm 21



Don't we all ???

The problem is, some of us are only 21 between the ears. :

Hope the back improves very soon.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## ksouers

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Don't we all ???
> 
> The problem is, some of us are only 21 between the ears. :
> 
> Hope the back improves very soon.
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



And some of us have been 21 several times!


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Best wishes for a quick recovery.
Don't rush it.


----------



## Deanofid

Take 'er easy, Tony. Back problems can be miserable. That engine will wait for you to get healed up, and so will we.

Dean


----------



## tombstone

Hi everyone
You may have already seen this link but anyone thinking of building a V8 should consider getting this piece of kit in their garage to make the crankcase

[ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o[/ame]

Tony Hope things are improving for you and you are soon back swinging handles


----------



## El$syd

Hi Tony,

Best wishes for a speedy back recovery - I have read right through your build so far and have been very impressed by your tenacity and look forward to the next phases.

All the very best -

Phil.


----------



## tombstone

Hi Tony
Is the back improving now I hope the meds are working OK for you. I dont know if you are checking the site but this is where I am up to, facing the .08 surplus off the cam was a bit of a disaster I managed to turn the gear location dia .02 u.size must learn how to read a mic.I thought of a few options but decided to remake it as it was a nice job to do originally & would let me get more use from the milling fix. I made it exactly the same except the marking out which I did similar to the crank image below, grind a knife edge on a piece of round HSS & mount in the spindle grip cam blank in dividing head chuck & set in freewheel mode & use the DRO to space out markings lot easier than height gauge.The spare cam will be useful for a trial heat treatment if necessary. Started on the crank faced both ends & mounted in vee block to centre both ends in mill using DRO I remember doing an actuator gearbox many years ago where the gear centres were lapped before grinding between centres so I lapped these with an old dead centre & fine lapping paste it cannt do any harm, then turned down to ¾ dia from 1.1/4 which was the size in the kit. I have not used this material before it seems very similar to S1 mild steel picks up & tears very easily when turned. I roughed main journals plunge cutting with Iscar self grip p/off tool & 3mm neutral insert tried most of speeds available for this, 500 rpm seemed to work best when I tried this on the other journals it would not cut just tried to push away from the job probably due to interrupted cut I ground up 3mm wide HSS groove tool & used this 1 pass down centre then 1 either side to about .4 dia which is where I am at now, 315 rpm seemed best, worked OK. The tool chattered a lot as can be seen from the image due to interrupted cut I think it will improve when down to a full dia. It needed a regrind on top face about 4 times per plunge cut this was indicated when the swarf changed from fine needles to lumps of swarf. I did 1 journal per day as I lose patience easily, when finished I released pressure on the tailstock for the night & noticed when I tightened it up for the 2nd journal a very slight pressure caused the first journal to start to collapse I dont know what it will be like when they are turned to size will have to make some small turning tools maybe modify 2mm insert p/off tools. Checked between centres when finished & got 0.012 TIR not bad considering the amount of material hacked out & it not being a very symmetrical shape, will set on 2 vee blocks & use press to straighten before final turning .Going on hols at weekend so will check if it moves while I am away maybe I should leave it outside to weather like a casting!
Hope you are soon back in shop making swarf with a pain free back.


----------



## cobra428

Thanks All for the many well wishs
The back is much better. I'm going to give it another week, I have to take the 6" RT off the mill. I think putting that beast on took care of the back!

Hi tombstone,
I've been watching. Looks like your really progressing on it. I'm going to have to work 24/7 on it to catch up :big:

Tony


----------



## tombstone

How not to machine a crankshaft #1 
How the hell did I manage to do that


----------



## walnotr

Are you using the E16T material for the crank or a substitute? I have read 4340 but also hear it is a bugger to machine. What do others use for IC engine cranks?

Steve C.


----------



## tombstone

Hi Waltnor
Yes it was E16T I have ordered 2 more lengths so I will have a spare it is not easy to machine on c/lathe I think probably due to limited range of spindle speeds available HSS seems to work best. I have not used 4340 before is it an AISI spec?The only other material I have to hand is some lengths of Hy-Tuf (AMS6418) in pre-heat treat state but feel hard of putting work in to make crank if material is no good for job


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Tony,I usually fit a wedge or nut and bolt between each web as this helps stop the flexing.What are you going to use for the bigend bearings.Make sure to have a small rad in the corners as I snapped a crank and luckily didn't do much damage but nearly gave me heart failure.
regards Frazer


----------



## tombstone

Hi Frazer Thanks for that this is 1st crank I have tried to make & am learning as I go,the nut & bolt should be a neat way to go the gap is .33" wide.It was flexing quite a lot with very little tailstock pressure on the 1st effort.I was going to take final pass with V style insert with .015" rad. Ray


----------



## gbritnell

Could one of you gentlemen tell me what E16T steel is comparable to. I have seen this designation used more than once. 
 I have used durabar cast iron, 12L14, 1144 stressproof and 1018 CRS for cranks. I have never had any problems with any of the listed materials but then again these cranks are only used in engines for demonstration purposes, 10 minutes here, ten minutes there. Each of my engines has a different type of lubrication system, some splash and some with gear pumps. 
gbritnell


----------



## cobra428

Hi gbritnell ,
EN16T is for the the crank on the Whitttle, I would suspect 4140/4142 or in that neighborhood.

Tony

Good to be back.....no pun indented 
Noting wrong with chrome moneel 4130 either


----------



## walnotr

In Part 8 of the build series Mr. Whittle makes a few recommendations for material substitutions. He feels 4340 is a good substitute for the EN16T. Also the HE30 aluminum is equivalent to 6061-T6 and HE15 can be replaced with 2024-T6511. It sure would be nice to have "standard" material designations! 

Steve C.


----------



## fcheslop

Not trying to tell my Granny how to suck eggs but if you go for the nut and bolt wrap a bit of tape round the web or a tye wrap to keep it in and stop it flying out .Good luck with the build its well worth it even though at times its hard going
regards Frazer


----------



## tombstone

Frazer many thanks this is all new to me any help gratefully recieved
Cobra Don't lift any heavy weights in shop & start on crank soon please
If the chart downloads ok it may be of intrest 

View attachment steel.doc


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## cobra428

tombstone
Thanks, I've been trying to get to the shop. But things where a little buzzy

Tony


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## tombstone

Hi Cobra
Glad you are on the mend & getting back to the shop take it easy before doing too much it can be a mine field if you are you are not 100% fit as we all know. Just managed to keep ahead of volcanic ash to go on hols for 5 days. The next job is shown in photo, fit a new cross slide screw & nut the old one is shot the backlash comp is worn out in the middle of the thread , the new part is wrapped in crocell on top slide, as it is a critical part decided to purchase from Colchester (600 UK Group) direct as they had one on the shelf I could probably have purchased a new Chinese mini lathe for similar money. Will have to move lathe to centre of shop to remove cross slide from the back and have to make sure it is done right so will take some time to do, the drive belts are also shot so will change them at same time. Have just received 2 pieces of 1 EN16T for next attempt at crank should be no trouble now!!
Take it easy. Ray


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## cobra428

Ray,
I think I'm going to use a tapered pin reamer for the front. 5/0 looks about right. I really don't want to deal with the 7-1/2 deg hole in the thrust washer!

Good luck with your next try

Tony


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## tombstone

Cobra
make the hole with what youve got & turn shaft to suit always a good strategy does this mean your going to start cutting metal cant wait to see photos
Ray


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## cobra428

Hi Ray,
Planning to get in the shop tomorrow. 
I was also thinking of making a step to stop the drive washer and key it with a 1/16 pin

Tony


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## tombstone

Hi Tony
I had not given much thought about the drive washer until you mentioned it I had a root around a box of old tools & found a taper pin reamer which would do the job so I think I will go with that, the way I see it the main force when running with a prop is radial so I think that a taper is best solution same as morse taper tooling, the only experience I have had is with an ED Bee 1cc about 55 yrs ago & can remember it had an ally drive collar with a taper the main problem was removing it without damaging the case. If the engine is only for demo runs I think a drive pin would be OK. When I started my mate who is a R/C model aero fanatic said he is going to build a DH51 replica to fly it in he reckons if he starts the build in 2 yrs time we should be finished together. Incidentally I read an article in one of his R/C mags which said one of the most common parts damaged in a crash is the crankshaft. Hope to start stripping Colchester tomorrow so have a few days to think what to do with crank, fcheslops tip with the nut & bolt sounds very good I will go with it.
Ray
Ps just a thought it might be possible to use shrink fit on a parallel dia to fit washer similar to the tooling used on high speed machining centres I heard that hot air is used now used to be induction coils but this was since I retired.


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## Dragondark

Hi everyone! I'm glad to see there are others insane enough to take on the eyestrain associated with this project! :big: Thank you to Iain who pointed me to this WIP thread.  

I'm a little behind this build is some areas and ahead in others. Wait till you get to the heads, they area ton of fun. I won't clog up the thread with a bunch of stuff, so if you want to see pics of the heads go to

http://www.dragondark.us/projects/wv8/wv8index.html 

Nice to meet you all!
Rob


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## Maryak

Rob,

Welcome to our forum. wEc1

Nice website. :bow:

How about telling us a bit about yourself by posting an intro in the welcome board. ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## tombstone

Dragondark 
Glad more people are getting involved with this engine it is always handy to see a pic of part rather than interpreting a drg it looks good so far.
Maryak
Many apologies for not posting intro I was only looking at this thread to start with will rectify shortly
Cobra
Have you made it back to shop yet
Ray


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## cobra428

Not yet Ray. Doing the spring clean up thing. I'm getting some work done on the house and other stuff

Tony


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## tombstone

The TT is here 
No metal cutting for 2 weeks


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## fcheslop

Hi,don't forget to go to Ballalona bridge and greet the fairies :big:
regards Frazer


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## T70MkIII

tombstone  said:
			
		

> The TT is here
> No metal cutting for 2 weeks


Looking forward to seeing coverage of the highlights here in Australia, and Le Mans is just around the corner too...


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## tombstone

Thanks Frazer for reminding me, I should have gone down the road to say hello before starting the 1st crank 
Richard weather given good for all practice week just going to watch 1st practice at Signpost Corner about 500 mtrs from where I live
there was a report that Jensen cars were going to restart manufacturing in the IoM maybe it might run at Le Mans
Regards Ray


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## walnotr

I have a question for the engine gurus out there. I have been inspired by this thread to attempt this build and have finished modeling the engine in CAD and have now turned to modeling in metal. One of the things I noticed is the center main bearing cap is wider than the center web by 0.025". Is there a good reason why this is designed this way or is it simply an error in dimensioning the web thickness? 

Keep up the good work guys! There is always so much to learn reading this forum.

Steve C.


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## tombstone

Hi Steve Welcome to the V8 build keep us posted how its going please.The drg I am using gives 3 separate dimns for this feature #1 upper c.case is 0.150" #2 centre cap is 0.175" #3 crank is 0.180" so it will fit.I think the bearing is only to prevent flexing in the crank so probably width is not vital & there is 0.003" nominal clearance on dia.Dont forget the 0.08" drg error on the camshaft I mentioned earlier.
good luck Ray


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## Rob.Barrett

Well it's taken a while and quite a lot of EN16T but I now have a crank. ;D


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## mu38&Bg#

That crank looks great!


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## Rob.Barrett

Thanks. It took me four goes at it. If I messed this one up I was going to take up flower arranging.

Rob


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## Deanofid

Hey Tony! Haven't heard from you for quite a while. Anything new? 
You doing okay? Give us a shout if you're still with us or people are going to 
start thinking this is someone else's thread!  

Dean


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## Rob.Barrett

Drive flange and washer.


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## GailInNM

Looking very nice, Rob. Wonderful workmanship.
Gail in NM


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## GRAYHIL

Have just come across you by chance 
I too have made the V8 engine based on Eric Whittles plans. 
Did any of you get yours running?
I can't get mine to even try to run, not even a backfire.

Have you any tips re possible causes.

At the moment the glowplugs when out of engine are white hot.
There is fuel there as it spits out of exhausts and I can see traces in the carbs
The valves have been ground in.
The piston rings are a good fit (.001"to .002" gap)
The cylinder head gaskets are fine.
BUT
There is not much compression at TDC. I expected to be able to feel it? when turning by hand.
I am using a 9% Caster 9%EDL special 4 stroke glow fuel.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Can send pictures of engine if required.
Many thanks
Graham Ord


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## walnotr

Welcome to the forum! I don't have any suggestions for you other than to make sure the glow plugs are lighting up while installed in the engine. I would think you should feel some compression but that may take a little running in before it gets there. Maybe spinning it over faster? I am still in the process of my build so I am only speaking off the top of my head. 

Please post pictures! We love to see peoples work around here.

Steve C.


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## idahoan

Is your cam timing spot on? I have never built a multi cylinder engine but I have heard of guys grinding cam shafts backwards.

Dave


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## GRAYHIL

A FEW PICTURES ATTACHED


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## ozzie46

Grayhill; From your picture it appears that your fuel tanks are to high. In model aircraft with glow fuel it is common practice to keep the center line of the tanks about even with the throttle barrel of the carb. Try lowering the tanks and see what happens.

 I think the compression might be problem too.

 Ron


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## GRAYHIL

Thanks Ron
Will try lowering the tanks.
As to compression???
Graham


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## mu38&Bg#

With 8 cylinders I would think the compression feel would be quite a bit less as you have 4 cylinders with some pressure in them. The torque variation between TDC of cylinders is smaller. If you pull plugs on all but one and you can't feel compression, then there may be some issue.

Also, I see that you have a standard rotation prop on it. Previous discussion here said that the engine is cammed to run the the other direction?


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## GRAYHIL

Standing _behind_ the engine and from there turning the prop C/W I get the following:-
At tdc on no 1 cylinder both valves closed

1/2 TURN C/W AT BOTTOM OF STROKE
Exhaust starts opening

1/2 TURN C/W AT TOP OF STROKE
Inlet starts opening

1/2 TURN C/W AT BOTTOM OF STROKE
BOTH VALVE CLOSED
Back to TDC

Also every 1/4 turn c/w gives 1,4,3,8,7,6,5,2 valves closed at tdc per cylinder.
All parts made to drgs. and Model Engineer instructions
Have yet to test carb arrangements
Graham


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## mu38&Bg#

OK, that sounds normal. I'm working on a CAD model of the engine and haven't reached the cam yet. The engine doesn't have overlap so the valve action you describe is correct.

Methanol is fairly forgiving on the rich side of mixture. As long as the plugs are hot it should fire even if things are very wet.

What are you driving the plugs with? The large two volt battery recommended in the article is probably the best way to light 8 plugs at once.


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## GRAYHIL

Hi
Two 2 volt cells wired to give 2 volts, always get mixed up wether its series or parallel!!!
Also see this link for miscellaneous photos of bits and vidios

http://s285.photobucket.com/home/GRAYHIL

Graham


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## fcheslop

Hi Graham, the glow plugs are wired in parallel due to there being 8 you need quite a large battery as recommended in the write up.The position and depth of the plugs is important to the running as are the ventures.The compression improves as the engine beds in .
Regards Frazer


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## poelafourie

I am really looking forward to follow the progress, keep us posted!

Poela Fourie


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## gadabout

sorry, I am a bit confused, your saying your turning the motor clockwise to check the timing but the picture shows a prop for counter clockwise operation, which way are you flicking it to try and start it? or is the picture mirrored? O am I confused?

regards
Mark


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## GRAYHIL

Hi Mark
Standing at the front of the engine anti clockwise (a/cw) 
Standing at the back of the engine clockwise (c/w)
The propeller sucks air in and blows air over the engine and backwards towards the fuel tanks.
So with an electric drill as a starter I turn it from the front on the spinner anti clockwise (a/cw) 
Graham


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## mu38&Bg#

What is the output RPM of your drill? Little cylinders like to spin fairly fast. I work with model airplane engines a lot. I set up a starter with a high voltage battery to turn the engines over quickly to eliminate that issue when I'm experimenting. I would make sure the starter can turn the engine over at least 2-3000 RPM until it's run in well and priming and carb settings are sorted.


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## GRAYHIL

Hi All
So I have got a couple of things to try, (at the moment I am putting in a coolant tank, pump & nozzle on the lathe, not a long job but messy.)
1) Take all but one plug out and try compression again.
2) Try lowering the fuel tanks more level with the carbs.
3) Get a faster starter drive motor.
4) Try and drip a few drops of fuel in the carbs.
4) Recheck the carbs and needles.
5) !!!!!????
Incidentaly I cant open and view the 4 pictures I posted on the website, can any of you.
The picture of the fuel can was a way of asking if it was the correct fuel to run the engine on??? what do you use?
Graham


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## cidrontmg

All pictures open just fine. Your fuel seems just the ticket, but the fuel tanks are quite high for the carbs.


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## GRAYHIL

To test the air tightness, not the pressure, I made this





It screws into the spark plug hole and with a drop of fuel inserted with a shringe and the plastic tube held in a U shape and then the engine turned to top dead centre the fuel rises up the tube approx 6". 
If the engine is left stationary at this point the drop of fuel does not descend.
It will also suck the drop back on inlet stoke if I remove the pushrods
and on through the cycle.
I think this proves the system is airtight, but not pressure tight. Another step hopefully in the right direction.
Graham


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## Rob.Barrett

Camshaft blank and camshaft finished.

Rob.


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## walnotr

Rob.Barrett  said:
			
		

> Camshaft blank and camshaft finished.
> 
> Rob.



Rob, that's looking really good!  :bow:

I wonder how many Whittle builds are currently underway. I hope to be finishing up the crank case soon so I can move on to other parts.

Steve C.


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## stang6t8coupe

Hi,

could anyone tell me where i can find the plans for this engine? The links that have been posted on page 24 don't work.

Is there a shop where i can buy the plans as pdf?

Thank you
Adrian


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## GailInNM

Printed plans and a materials kit are available from Hemingway in GB but they ship worldwide.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_V8_Aero_Engine___Eric_Whittle.html

Gail in NM


----------



## MachineTom

I came to the site yesterday and read Cobra's posts on the Whittle project. The posts just stopped in July from Tony, anyone heard from him? Health issues or ?


----------



## Rob.Barrett

Crankcase assembly with cam followers and guides.

Rob


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## waynes world

stang6t8coupe  said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> could anyone tell me where i can find the plans for this engine? The links that have been posted on page 24 don't work.
> 
> Is there a shop where i can buy the plans as pdf?
> 
> Thank you
> Adrian


you can get them from the model engineer site from the uk magazine site free as they put them up for people to enjoy as they felt it was time for it create intrest for the site . not a rip from just anybody.www.modelengineer.com.uk


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## steamer

THAT is a Jewel!
 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Keep it coming! I'm loving it.

Dave


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## Rob.Barrett

Con Rod with shell bearings. Just have to make another 7 now. :-[


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## metalmad

all the builds are looking great :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
pete from oz


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## agmachado

Hi Tony,

This engine is great!!

This kit is in a list for my future choice, after I learn and practice the technigues of machining. Currently, I'm enabling my home shop.

Best Regards,

Alexandre


----------



## xpylonracer

Hi all, just joined the group, I live in the UK and am building the Whittle, currently machining the crankshaft.
Interested to know what size/thread screws Rob is using for the big end caps ?
emgee.


----------



## Rob.Barrett

Hi,

All the threads I've used on this engine are metric, mainly 1.6mm. The big end screws are 1.6mm high tensile with the heads turned down a little. I got them from RS Components here in the UK. They're a bit pricey but for something as important as the big ends I thought it was worth it. Here are the rest of the rods.
Rob


----------



## El$syd

This engine build is great. It's great to see the various parts being built - brilliant.

Has anyone actually used one of these engines in a model plane and successfully flown it?


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## cfellows

Wow! Nice work! I really admire the attention to detail.

Chuck


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## agmachado

Wonderful this work!

What are a next steps ?

Cheers,

Alexandre


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## stevehuckss396

I'm getting confused!!

How many different Whittles are being built in this thread?

If you are not Cobra, could you start your own threads? This way it would be easier to keep track of whos parts are who.

BTW Awesome work on all of them. This engine is on my bucket list. Keep it coming!!

Steve


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## slick95

I too was a bit confused. Has anybody heard from Tony (Cobra428)? I have not see a post here from him for at least 6 months!

Jeff


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## Steve_Withnell

Rob.Barrett  said:
			
		

> Drive flange and washer.


Hi Rob,

I'm just turned the taper on the crank and the dimensions on the plan don't work out - that is to say a 7degree inclusive angle don't produce a taper 0.5 inches long,  which is necessary to accomodate a standard prop (at least). Did you come across this, how did you deal with it?

Regards

Steve


----------

