# ??? Making Setups



## Canyonman (Oct 31, 2020)

Hi All.   Can anyone recommend a read (book or otherwise) on the principles of making set ups?
Thanks    Ken


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## goldstar31 (Nov 1, 2020)

Comments deleted for lack of acknowlwdgement


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## larryg (Nov 1, 2020)

I believe that the ability to make a setup that allow you to make a cut on the piece you are working on is what separates the master from the apprentice.  Each piece that we make is a bit different from the next so being able to setup and fixture  becomes the big variable that we have to figure out.  Once figured out then the cut is made and we go on to the next 'problem'.

Might I suggest that you peruse some of the major catalogs and look at the tools available to assist in making setups and the tools available to make special cuts.  

lg
no neat sig line


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## SmithDoor (Nov 1, 2020)

Trial and error  
I never had book on setup, I just kept trying different ways till work. 
I would look at photos on parts being machine.
I have photos hear on machining square bars in a steady rest. I also have few other setup here too.

Dave



Canyonman said:


> Hi All.   Can anyone recommend a read (book or otherwise) on the principles of making set ups?
> Thanks    Ken


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## ignator (Nov 2, 2020)

Canyonman said:


> Hi All.   Can anyone recommend a read (book or otherwise) on the principles of making set ups?
> Thanks    Ken


There is a youtube channel of a machinist making a steam engine part by part (he's at part 8 as of this post, it is from a kit). He shows all sorts of fixtures and jigs and methods he uses to make each part.


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## Mike Henry (Nov 2, 2020)

The book Jigs and Fixtures by Colvin and Haas might be a good read.  Out of print now, I think, but it should turn up on Ebay periodically.  Carr-Lane used to publish a book/manual on jigs and fixtures in support of the related products that they sell and may still do so.


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## Canyonman (Nov 2, 2020)

Hi ignator.  The embedded video is great. But I can't seem to lock in on the channel.
OOps, nevermind, I got it.  Thanks!

And Thanks Mike, I will check those out!

And Thank You Everyone!


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## Richard Hed (Nov 2, 2020)

SmithDoor said:


> Trial and error
> I never had book on setup, I just kept trying different ways till work.
> I would look at photos on parts being machine.
> I have photos hear on machining square bars in a steady rest. I also have few other setup here too.
> ...


I never used a book either, however, if there were a book out there, I would like to buy one.  Books always give someone else's experience which might tell one someting valuable.


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## ignator (Nov 3, 2020)

Canyonman said:


> Hi ignator.  The embedded video is great. But I can't seem to lock in on the channel.
> OOps, nevermind, I got it.  Thanks!
> 
> And Thanks Mike, I will check those out!
> ...


If you click on the youtube icon while it's playing here on this site, it should go to the youtube site. Then you can click on his channel name, and there's a video tab to let you select the different videos he's posted. Each of these engine parts he's machining have different setups. I have no intention of building this engine, but his methods are useful for any future operations I may have.


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## Shopgeezer (Nov 3, 2020)

That video is by Joe Pieczynski (Joe Pie). There are excellent videos on steam engine building by Keith Appleton, This Old Tony, and Blondihacks. All of those are just excellent series, both on the steam engines and general machining. I watch them a lot.


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## len1042 (Nov 3, 2020)

This channel by Joe Pieczynski i(Joe Pie) is one of the best channels to learn different machine shop techniques and trikes. He explains and them demonstrates. He is great and I suggest subscribing to his channel. 
I am currently working on a 3/4" live steam Shay.


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## Canyonman (Nov 3, 2020)

Thanks to All for the YouTube site and How-To's.
Thank You alanganes, alot of information there. Yes this is the kind of stuff I am looking for.
Ken


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## alanganes (Nov 5, 2020)

Canyonman said:


> Thanks to All for the YouTube site and How-To's.
> Thank You alanganes, alot of information there. Yes this is the kind of stuff I am looking for.
> Ken




No problem, glad that (for once...) I had something useful to offer. In addition, the afore mentioned Carr-lane book is available $9.95 as a Kindle book from Amazon here:






						Jig & Fixture Handbook, CarrLaneMfg, Manufacturing, Carr Lane, eBook - Amazon.com
					

Jig & Fixture Handbook - Kindle edition by CarrLaneMfg, Manufacturing, Carr Lane. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading Jig & Fixture Handbook.



					www.amazon.com
				




It seems to me that at one time they had downloadable PDF of this as well, but it was not jumping out at me on the website. They used to send it to you on request, I had a paper copy years ago, but think I lost it in an office relocation or something. Perhaps they will send you a PDF copy if you ask for one. might be worth a try, all they can do is say no!


And there is some good info on their website here:



			Workpiece Fixture Design Principles | Carr Lane


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## alanganes (Nov 6, 2020)

I got a notification that the post with the link to the jigs and fixtures book was deleted because:

 "The Internet Archive was likely breaching copyright so we don't promote it here."

Note that the book I linked was published in 1913 and was "digitized by Google from the library of the University of California"


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## Canyonman (Nov 6, 2020)

Alanganes  Guess I got lucky. I managed to download a copy of the first one you recommended.
Will do some surfing on the other two.
Thanks again     Ken


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## Cogsy (Nov 7, 2020)

alanganes said:


> I got a notification that the post with the link to the jigs and fixtures book was deleted because:
> 
> "The Internet Archive was likely breaching copyright so we don't promote it here."
> 
> Note that the book I linked was published in 1913 and was "digitized by Google from the library of the University of California"



The internet archive is full of materials well within copyright and the legal opinions suggest it is, in general, in breach of copyright. The problem is, they vigorously defend copyright claims and each copyright holder has to launch their own actions. As you can appreciate this is extremely expensive for the poor copyright holders yet the internet archive has vast resources. So if you don't mind screwing over the little guy, have at it, but please don't promote the site on the forum - it's a respect thing...


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## goldstar31 (Nov 7, 2020)

Quite bluntly, there are many people literally wanting 'something for nothing'

At the end of the day, publishing  something is work-- and therefore no different to any other work- and.
 should be paid for.
A Person steals, who without permission of the owner, takes or carries away anything capable of being stolen. 
Even things like electricity come under this category. I was the guy that took people to court for illegally obtaining unmetered electricity.  It was always explained that the debt was for a member of staff seeing someone using a light.  The debt in question was the only for the consumption of ONE unit of electricity.
Restitution of the rest of the units used was always expressed as the mutual agreement of the two paries concerned.
That's the way that English Law was conducted

Regards

Norman


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## L98fiero (Nov 7, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> The internet archive is full of materials well within copyright and the legal opinions suggest it is, in general, in breach of copyright.


Assuming the site is correct, here's what they say:
Identifier jigsandfixtures00haasgoog
Identifier-ark ark:/13960/t8rb7239fLccn 38014454
Openlibrary_edition OL6370621M
Openlibrary_work OL191913W
Pages 185
Possible copyright status NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT 
I'm not suggesting taking/stealing someone's work but while you have to be careful, not everything on the internet is wrong or stolen.


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## Richard Carlstedt (Nov 7, 2020)

Ken , If you want to learn Jigs and Fixtures, it will help if you understand 
"  6 Degrees of Freedom" ( 6DOF)
 Unfortunately , Most of the discussions on the net are not machining related and are pretty esoteric in Physics and or Robotics .  As a retired Manufacturing Engineer, I taught my machinists this subject
I wish I could send you my Power Point but it is 55 megs in size .
The general stuff you read about , or watch on You tube shows the setup, but you need to understand WHY !    That is the secret of success  !   Understanding 6 Degrees of Freedom allows you to do your own setups for some wild parts . I'll try to start off here with a major point  of 6DOF from my slides without getting too deep i hope
--------------------
*The single most important concept to Learn today is called         3-2-1*






---------------------------------------------------------







----------------------------------------------------------------
Examples of a Plane are :
• A Table top
•Your Milling Table
•The Jaws on a Vise ( 2! )
•Surfaces on angle plates
----------------------------------------

*2 P *   are   2 Points and define  a Line    o---------------o

*1 P  *   is a single point in space          o 

In the real world you see this 





So in the above example there are 6 Degrees of freedom 
You see the 3 -2-1 , and now a single opposite point is needed to control the object

This is the theory to understand  for non-spherical objects, and use it to see how other people setups are made

Hope this helps
Rich


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## Richard Hed (Nov 7, 2020)

Canyonman said:


> Alanganes  Guess I got lucky. I managed to download a copy of the first one you recommended.
> Will do some surfing on the other two.
> Thanks again     Ken


Me too!


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## Richard Carlstedt (Nov 7, 2020)

Ken, I know you wish to learn and that was the reason for the question so let me add a little more to the above  which maybe will help.
Most Home Shop guys clamp things in a vise and think they have control...Nope  !
One jaw is a Plane.. and when you look at 6DOF , the other jaw is a plane, but you really want a point .
When you have two opposing jaws ( ie planes) ...ONLY one is the master
Let me show you with a simple casting in a Vise





Note both the V Block and part are cocked when the vise jaws are closed  ( 2 opposing Planes )

So realizing  a Point should oppose the Plane we add a Dowel pin to act as the single point on the casting




Now this simple change has stabilized the part -the single point on the casting is opposed to the Plane
And this is for only 2 degrees of the 6 DOF , but it will accurately locate the part in that direction
We would need to restrict the other DOF to be perfect  ( The above could not take side forces ie)

Rich
By the way, this is a huge subject...some guys spend their life on it
Edit was spelling error


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## Canyonman (Nov 7, 2020)

Hi Rich, and Thank You!
--------------------------
Holy S##T!!!!  I just Googled 6-DOF. It's Mindboggling!!!!


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## tornitore45 (Nov 8, 2020)

Much about machining can not be learned from a book, that is the reason experience count.
One learn from his errors and reflection of why a certain procedure failed.
Some set up are easy, clamp it hard in the vise and hog the heck out of it.
The challenge is when a higher degree of precision is required or the clamping is not as strong as an ideal situation.
The part is tin, flimsy, it stick out too much.
Under those conditions it helps to analyze how the cutter motion meets the part.  Is it pushing it away? Sucking in in? 
Is the cutter whacking a tin sheet side to side?   Sometime mowing the cutter and the engagement arc of the cutter relative to the part can cut down vibrations.   Sometime one has to sandwich a part and sometime machine a cradle to clamp it is the shape does not lend to clamping.
In substance every case is different, you look at the part shape, look at you many method of holding it, analyze the cutting force direction and come up with the best approach.   If it fails in some respect you pause and reflect on the root cause of failure and learn to neutralize, then store the learning. That is what experience is.
Failure does not always need to be catastrophic, usually the set up is screaming at you saying "I am not happy".
If you are tuned in you will detect the impending  catastrophe and stop.  As you gain experience the you will find in a "pickle" less and less often and detect the need to stop readily.
A mistake can be a valuable learning opportunity.


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## Cogsy (Nov 8, 2020)

L98fiero said:


> Assuming the site is correct, here's what they say:
> Identifier jigsandfixtures00haasgoog
> Identifier-ark ark:/13960/t8rb7239fLccn 38014454
> Openlibrary_edition OL6370621M
> ...



I wasn't suggesting the link to the specific publication was breaching copyright, simply that the site itself is jam-packed full of material which is covered by copyright. Simply viewing the posted link will present the user with other "you may also be interested in..." materials which, depending on your browser history/cookies, may well be propagated with copyrighted material. So we don't post links to a site that hosts pirated material in large quantities, even if the link is to a legal copy. 

I guess you consider it complying with the spirit of the law rather than the letter.


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## alanganes (Nov 8, 2020)

Cogsy said:


> As you can appreciate this is extremely expensive for the poor copyright holders yet the internet archive has vast resources. So if you don't mind screwing over the little guy, have at it, but please don't promote the site on the forum - it's a respect thing...



I have no interest in screwing over anyone. I have had some small stuff published in the past and realize how much work writing even a short article can be. Again, this book was published over 100 years ago by two authors who have loads of similar work in the public domain. They died over 50 years ago. It is a public domain book. The whole point of copyrighted material passing into the public domain is so that information and knowledge can be shared and not lost, while still allowing time for the authors/publishers a window of time to profit from their labor of producing it.

So far as I know, the Internet archive never pushes back against anyone making notice that their copyright is being violated there, they just take the stuff down. They are not a business, they are a non-profit that functions as a library and any works that are not public domain are there by permission and available only on an electronic loan basis to one person at a time, just like a physical library. It is nothing at all like a few other online book sites (one in particular whose name starts with "S"...) that are pretty blatantly piracy sites.

In this case, the original scan was done by Google Books and includes a specific cover page stating that the book is in the public domain.

You moderate the site and I'm fine with that. But please don't suggest that I "don't mind screwing over little the little guy" or that I lack respect for anyone. I would not have posted that if I did not know it to be a public domain work, and in fact did not post links to a one other work on the topic I came across for precisely that reason.


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## elcid (Nov 8, 2020)

Mike Henry said:


> The book Jigs and Fixtures by Colvin and Haas might be a good read.  Out of print now, I think, but it should turn up on Ebay periodically.  Carr-Lane used to publish a book/manual on jigs and fixtures in support of the related products that they sell and may still do so.


The book is online at Jigs And Fixtures : Haas Lucian L. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
But copyright can be a minefield especially in todays digital world. What does "out of Copyright" Mean? (with picture)


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## elcid (Nov 8, 2020)

I have pdf files of books that were downloaded years ago all out of copyright and free, what has happened since I downloaded them is copyright laws were revised and internet giants like Google who had told the world that they were digitising books so that people could read them for free in the future opened up a lucrative trade in copyrighting out of copyright books.  Amazon has an old copy of the book Jigs and Fixtures for sale at less than £10, but also  a reprint for around £50+.  Google told us to monetise everything, everythng has a value.


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## Canyonman (Nov 8, 2020)

Guys,  My search for information on making "set-ups" was never an attempt at causing a dispute over copyrights. I am just trying to learn more on a subject which has caused me grief.
Ken


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## clockworkcheval (Nov 9, 2020)

In my humble opinion the earlier mentioned books on jig and fixture design are a total overkill. It is unavoidable that those books give snippets of good ideas. However the majority of the content deals with how to achieve set-up for repeatable mass production. And we mostly are aiming at a reliable solid one-off set-up. And every once in a while a high-precision set-up. Highschool physics, practice and experience mostly suffice. Joe Pieczynski and some others give helpful insights.


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## Steamchick (Nov 9, 2020)

Richard Carlstedt said:


> Ken, I know you wish to learn and that was the reason for the question so let me add a little more to the above  which maybe will help.
> Most Home Shop guys clamp things in a vise and think they have control...Nope  !
> One jaw is a Plane.. and when you look at 6DOF , the other jaw is a plane, but you really want a point .
> When you have two opposing jaws ( ie planes) ...ONLY one is the master
> ...



So basically, you advocate the first rule of stability = the 3-legged stool - as the starting point for a good set-up - presumably to resist the Major force of machining...?
I agree. BUT Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding?
(The 3-legged stool only works in 2 degrees of freedom, remove gravity and you can't sit on it! - Ask a diver?).
K2


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## clockworkcheval (Nov 9, 2020)

In a set-up for machining the force to counteract is not gravity but the cutting force. So you first and foremost have to determine the direction and strength of the cutting force.


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## Ron Lunsford (Nov 9, 2020)

If I may just add another perspective do this conundrum... Understanding the order of operations to produce the needed item is the most important process to achieve the accuracy one may want. Take the time to look at the item needed and try to understand what each feature is used for and how can you manufacture each process without jeopardizing the next step needed to make the next feature... Sounds so simple but after SO many years of doing these things you start to develop an eye for how things can be held and or fixtured to make the desired feature. There are a great deal of solid advise logged here. 
Kind Regards
  Ron


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## Cogsy (Nov 9, 2020)

alanganes said:


> So far as I know, the Internet archive never pushes back against anyone making notice that their copyright is being violated there, they just take the stuff down.



The internet archive supposedly considers itself a library and it holds many physical copies of books, both in copyright and out of copyright, which it digitally 'lends' to users. The way these digital copies are provided to users has long been a point of contention with publishers and copyright holders and there is strong belief that this is not a legal practice. Further to this, since the pandemic hit, they have gone beyond even their dubious legal practices and now 'lend' out an unlimited amount of copies, in excess of the number of physical copies they hold. They are now being sued over this practice (LINK). They are a non-profit but they do have substantial resources just the same and they are defending against the lawsuit. And they have not ceased this policy despite legitimate copyright holders asking them to.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 11, 2020)

Moving away from the Legion of lost Causes( My view),  I've been 'briefing' one of our younger  on collets and collet holders. He wants to regrind worn end mills and slot drills and whilst I have several dividing heads which are suitable, he hasn't. So I have suggested nothing more elaborate than a set of square blocks with tools held by flush grub screws and simply rotating them to profuce the 90 and 180 degree angles.  Then I mentioned the intriguing too  from Australia's Eccentric Engineering. Then I gave him the hint that the Late John Stevenson MBE RIP had simple blocks which are still available at Arceurotrade.
I have yet to inculcate him into the noble art of the GlueGun and a bit of 2 x 2 " scrap timber.  Simply a great invention! 
Thought that I'd bring things into the 20th or is it the 21St Century and not involve copyright time wasting

Regards

Norman


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## KellisRJ (Nov 29, 2020)

Removed by poster.


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