# Graying Hobbies



## motmaluk (May 31, 2013)

I wonder if any of the members are as concerned as I am at the fact that hobbies like our model engine builders  are gradually losing members and clout due to the aging process. It can't have escaped anyone's notice that modern day youths are much less interested in fixing cars and motorcycles like the boomers were. Trade schools are dwindling,schools shop subjects diminishing,due to liability issues and lack of funds and interest. Gazing at a phone screen while texting seems to be the norm these days. How can we get youth interested in creativity and bring them on board? If we fail to get new blood our hobby along with hotrods,classic motorcycles and anything that gets your hands dirty is doomed. Suggestions anyone?


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## ChooChooMike (May 31, 2013)

Totally agree with you. Today's kids (I can call them that since it's my birthday today th_wav) are more interested in computers games, texting, or whatever the latest electronic gadgets ... 

There are little pockets of the younger generation working with their hands. These and other youngsters need to be nurtured into seeing the satisfaction of working with their hands. Sweat equity builds character more then many other things !!

Mike


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## BronxFigs (May 31, 2013)

Years ago, when I was much younger, I visited a Cabin Fever Show in Leesport, PA.  This was the first show that I ever attended, and I was amazed at all the beautifully machined engines, etc. that were on display.  I knew enough about what I was looking at on the tables to know that technical drawings had to exist for many of the engines, steam engines, compressed-air motors, etc.  Far too many times when I inquired about purchasing plans, I was told, and I'm paraphrasing,  'I never drew-up this engine', or' I constructed it from my own ideas, in my spare time'.  I was very disappointed, and my enthusiasm was squelched for a number of years.  Also, many of the men displaying their models were quite elderly, and I couldn't help thinking...'if this gent passes on, so will all his creations.  Why doesn't he just draw it on paper and share it with the modeling community'?

I shutter to think what was lost to the ages.  Thank God, for these kinds of forums.  The generous members have contributed a great service to the modelers all around the world, by sharing and posting drawings.

Guys, no one lives forever, and we all get old.  Get your creations on paper.  I'll bet that there are guys on this forum that will take your sketches, dimensions, parts representations, etc, and clean them up in a computer and give you back readable, understandable, drawings.  Do it.  Please.  Tick-Tock!

Also, when I was a kid, I tuned my own car, replaced burnt-out clutches, swapped engines, and worked on my car in the street.  Dangerous....yes, but I lived.  Cars were easier to understand back then.  Open a hood today...where's the engine?  Today's cars are rolling living-rooms, and need specialized equipment if you wanted to work on them.  Who bothers anymore.  You bring the car in for service and drive home a loaner.  Back in 1968, changing points in a old Corvette, dual-point distributor, in January, was no fun.  Today's cars must be a real PIA to work on.

No Tech-Schools, few apprentice programs, lack of desire to do things with their hands.  Few, do-it-yourself magazines.  Popular Science and Popular Mechanics used to be as thick as a book.  Today...all ads, and marginally, interesting stories.  Not worth the price.

My two-cents.


Frank


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## Niceonetidy (May 31, 2013)

My two lads do not even know what is inside the door of my workshop for all the reasons listed above,  what a shame, and who will fix, repair their stuff when it's broke? Not us, we may not be Abe or wish to be bothered,

Cheers,

Colin


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## Mosey (May 31, 2013)

Not to bore you all, but I am grateful and excited that my 16 yo grandson is coming for awhile this summer to make engines with me. We will make a boiler for the wobbler he made over Christmas. His dad maintains his own dirtbike.
Mosey


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## moya034 (May 31, 2013)

I'm 31, so there are a few of us younger guys carrying on the tradition. I'm also a ham radio operator, and see the same trends within that hobby as well.

The fact of the matter is, the yougins who do grasp onto these old skills will be the ones who inherit the earth. I forsee there will be a day in the future where people who can actually preform the skilled trades with expertise will make more money then people with with college diplomas.

In regards to the world of machining, I think there is a direct correlation with the loss of state side manufacturing. There are trends however where some manufacturers are starting to bring operations back to the states. Also, I do see another trend, and the new 3d printing craze proves this, where we may start moving to more of a distributed form of manufacture as opposed to the current centralized model. This is in the same vain as how the personal computer and printer took the world of printing from a centralized model to a new distributed model. In fact, due to future economic conditions I believe will become a reality, there may be a day if you want certain things you will be forced to make them yourself.

That all being said, I fully agree with the sentiment that the people who know how to do this stuff right now need to get what's inside their head onto paper. It could be a huge set back for humanity if we have to take the time to re-discover these old skills.


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## Philjoe5 (May 31, 2013)

> Suggestions anyone?



My experiences of having just jumped into this hobby are relatively recent.  

I can point to several folks, some who have built museum quality models, that encouraged me when I started.  If only I had met these folks 50 years ago, when I was in my teens!!

  I would say encourage anyone who takes an interest, here, at a show, in a conversation with a family member, neighbor or friend.  

  Cheers,
  Phil



  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]


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## Tin Falcon (May 31, 2013)

I would encourage all who possibly can to show and exhibit engines. There are many who gance and walk on . others can easily be engaged in conversation and there some amazing young people very eager to learn. 
I have seen 5-12 year olds with engineer written all over them. people will not get involved in this hobby if they do not know it exists. 
Tin


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## aarggh (May 31, 2013)

I see this so much myself honestly it worries me no end. My 10 year old daughter is pretty creative and loves all things artistic, but the rest of my kids I'd have to drag kicking and screaming to get them to do something that to them is like forced hard labour. A lot of the problem I think is that to create with your hands is really a long term goal and may possibly require a reasonable amount of thinking, planning, and maybe even getting your hands dirty, and when the world is all about instant gratification, they not only just can't see that far ahead, but also don't see a benefit. If a kid can sit glued to an ipad or iphone, and send a "wassup?" text to his mate, who within seconds responds with "nuttin", to their mind going out in the cold/hot workshop to manually coerce materials into shape, is seen as punishment without reward.

It really is a sad state, but it's a natural result of living in a world where everyone is driven to distraction. When I was much younger, we couldn't afford a trannie, so I and a lot of others made crystal sets, but apart from setting off fireworks and playing with air rifles, and spending most time playing outdoors, that was our level of distraction, so we spent time pulling things apart to see what made them tick. In our kids school, there's no practical creative thought encouraged, it's lock step education, from the book, and that's it! That's also a lot to blame.

It's something I've thought about a lot and it really upsets me to see the degradation of what I would consider core values to be just dwindling away in society. And it's not just a case of pining for the past, it really is tragic. All these kids in the current generation that are ending up with anger and minor depression issues, I think a lot is attributable to the fact they feel like they should be doing something worthwhile, but the motivation to do an activity that brings it's own reward, just isn't enough to overcome the general apathy they have to doing some thing that doesn't provide that instant gratification. Years ago I blocked Facebook completely from our house, as our oldest daughter would spend literally 8-12 hours straight, just waiting for that instant meaningless response from her friends.

Don't know what the answer is though to turn this situation around, it's bigger than just introducing some extra curriculum at school  think.

cheers, Ian


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## rondunn (May 31, 2013)

I've been slowly entering this hobby over the last 2-3 years. I probably took a different path to a lot of people. My profession is computing, my earlier passion is woodworking, and I stumbled across CNC and realised it gave me the best of both worlds. I bought a couple of different CNC routers over the years, and spent my time mostly building toys for my kids.

As I used the internet to research and learn, I had to fight my growing feelings of inadequacy. I didn't have a Tormach. I couldn't afford a Stinger. A Bridgeport wouldn't fit in my shed. How could I *possibly* do good work? I call this the "Binford Syndrome", after Tim The Toolman Taylor of 90s television fame, whose catch-phrase was "More POWERRRRRRRRRRR" ... a pre-cursor to the greed evident in the saying "He who dies with the most toys, wins."

How this ties back to the topic is that I think it creates an unrealistic picture in most peoples' minds of what is needed - in equipment and dollars - to take up this hobby. If someone thinks they need 100 m2 of floor space filled with tens of thousands of dollars in heavy machinery, they're not going to rush into hobby machining.

One way to overcome this barrier to entry would be to change the perception of what's needed to build model engines. As I read old magazine articles, for example, I often see amazing work created by hand tools. That might not be attractive to today's instant gratification society, but the lesson from those articles is that they demonstrate not just the engine, but the tools that were used to build it. Perhaps posters working on projects could more often share comments on the tools and techniques they use, rather than just the outcome. For example, I'd love to see more real-world uses of Taig and Sherline class machines, as these are far more realistic entry points for new hobbyists. 

In line with the comments of an earlier poster, I'd also like to see more plans - even sketches - that were sized for these machines.

The second problem I face is the availability and cost of materials. As brass and aluminium become harder for the novice to find, probably in line with the death of manufacture in many cities, perhaps it is time to shift a body of work to modern materials such as resin, perspex, etc. It would be much easier to learn in this cheaper, more available material, even though I would still lust in my heart after the shine of brass and similar metals.

An experienced machinist could probably do this as a "no-brainer". A novice, though, needs recipes to follow. Simple plans that use widely available materials would go a long way to helping.

Finally, and perhaps a little more controversially, metric. In the vast majority of countries in the world materials are metric. Fasteners are metric. Tools are metric. A novice faced with plans in 1/8ths, 1/64ths, etc., and threads that no longer exist in his universe, gets treated like a fool by most materials and component suppliers. He asks for unrealistic product sizes, and items that no longer exist. A bit more work by the hobby in building a body of knowledge in contemporary measurement standards would go a long way to lowering the barrier to entry.

Just the thoughts of a novice, but perhaps relevant to more than just me


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## Hopper (Jun 1, 2013)

Fear not. 'Twere always so.
* &#8220;Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for  authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in  place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they  contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food  and tyrannize their teachers.&#8221;  -- Socrates, circa 400 BC
*


http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/275648.Socrates


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## goldstar31 (Jun 1, 2013)

I think that most of you have got it wrong. Sorry but I guess that my memory of things past still extends further than most of you.
I'm 83 or will be this month. I think that I am still with it mentally- and probably physically. However, it not my intention to start a turf war or anything but to report on conditions- as I saw it and see it.
I was born in a mining village which was only a mile or so where George Stephenson, the railway pioneer was born and the other way, a mile or so from where Charles Parsons lived and did his experiments into steam turbines etc. Within walking distance, there was the factories of Armstrong and Whitworth and so on- and so on.
It should have been an area where children made models and adults made things on lathes.
There was a war raging, there was full employment and perhaps 3 kids in one class who made models and one old Myford lathe. At 14 we all left school going down the mine or into a factory and we forgot all this model making- or they did.
That village is still there but no lathes or models.
At 18 I became a Goldstar31 in the Royal Air Force. The place had perhaps 400, Brits, Yanks and whatever. There were Spitfires a plenty, there were planes flying about- Berlin airlifts and whatever. There is still a Spitfire airworthy and a little Devon and a heap of aircraft in Cosford Museum and there was three who made- models.
Today, I live a mile or so from a model club. It is the centre of the whole of the Tyneside with memories- fading rapidly of industrial prosperity-- and perhaps 100 people interested in models. I did an exercise some decades ago and I guess that there is half a million people on Tyneside and so on.

There is more people on a Saturday night in Newcastle's China town than 'modellers' and somewhat rudely, more people lying pissed in the gutter in one street.

I hope that I haven't killed too many sacred cows in my little considered comments.


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## windy (Jun 1, 2013)

Arc Euro Trade Ltd supplied my club P.E.E.M.S. with a C0 Baby lathe at a reasonable price and this is what was done with it.
On Arco Euro home page scrolling up they have pictures of the children having a taste of engineering.

This is what it says. 
Young Engineers in North Yorkshire
Members of the Pickering Experimental Engineering & Model Society (PEEMS) used a C0 Baby Lathe to introduce the children in years 3, 4, 5 & 6 at Amotherby Community Primary School to engineering as part of the National Science and Engineering Week in March 2013.The project for the children using the lathe was to perform the final shaping of the nose cone for a small rocket said PEEMS President, Mike Sayers. They also cut out and mounted the fins onto pre-cut bodies. The final event of the day was the launching of the rockets by means of compressed air - to the countdown of the children!The children without exception showed great interest in the day's event and I am sure that many of them will now view engineering differently and with perhaps just a little knowledge that may help shape their futures.All involved, that is to say the children, the staff and PEEMS members all enjoyed the day and it is hoped that this event may be the start of an association between Amotherby School and PEEMS.

My interest in models started when taught by the metal work teacher at school who built models and his legacy was a lifelong interest in all models.

Paul


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## rondunn (Jun 1, 2013)

goldstar31, is your point that model engineering has always been a minority hobby? I guess that holds true for many hobbies, but it doesn't mean that they have to die.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jun 1, 2013)

From our perspective as modelers looking out the window, we see we are a dying breed and the hobby is dying.  And maybe it is compared to technology based activities.

I've been into modeling since I was a kid.  Building Testors models in the mid to late 80's.  I lost interest for a while, helping my uncle work on and build tractors for the old tractor shows.  I loved that, he still has a few of them but he's getting old.  I also learned woodworking and metalworking in his shop.

My brother, grew up right beside me and never did a single model or worked on a single gokart, 4 wheeler or dirtbike... I fixed all of that.

I say that to get to this point... it's simple demographics.  I can't find a single modeling club down here in the SE.  My best modeling buddy lives in Bronx and I met him thru HMEM.

I also agree that the older generations should put their work on paper or have it digitized to pass down to their younger generations if not for every one.  Not because we're a dying breed, but because it's valuable.

I can feel the sentiment and agree with every one here, but given the number of people on this forum alone, I have to say the member base is actually growing.  Demographically, there's got to be more of us because there are so many more people in the world now.

Check out this site from France:
www.usinages.com

or this one from Germany:
www.dampfforum.info

Goldstar, I for one appreciated your account.

But I have to admit, on the small local scale, I'm maybe one of three serious modelers in a town of 15,000.  Again, deomographics.  And they are into different modeling, none of them have the metalworking capability i do as they don't need it.  I work in a town of 183,000 or so and have yet to run up on another modeler.

My point is, I can see both sides.  I have to agree most that older generations should document their work for later generations.  I am, and i'm only 32.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 1, 2013)

I think that the word should be minute- not minor! I can't write about much more than the UK or perhaps Europe but certainly there are less and less numbers involved in engineering. The word here 'engineering' embraces at lot more than sitting in a wooden shed with a somewhat rickety old lathe. As has been mentioned, 'engineering' could cover going to Woolworths or whatever and buying a set of points for a car or to change the tyres/tires.
It doesn't happen- you can't go to 'Woolies' because it doesn't exist nor does the modern car have points anyway. It needs a computer dedicated to that car and someone who knows a bit more than how to use a feeler gauge.
To all intents and purposes, Britain has not a motor cycle industry. It has a motor cycle import industry from Japan or whatever. It has perhaps a couple of car 'producers'. I trained in where the Nissan lads trained but somewhat rudely, I was the only student who would -and could his hand in his pocket to pay the tuition fees. That college is demolished and a set of three storey homes is being built where I got my City and Guilds in Motor Vehicle Restoration, a Certified Welders bit of paper and a heap of A series cylinder heads machined for Austin/Morris/MG and whatever that don't exist anymore.
Across the road from here is several miles of 'Armstrongs Factories' which have gone- where? You tell me!

I've got in the safe a cigarette case from Lumsdens Grinding Works and a share certificate- Oh, and a set of paintings!

As for model engineering/hobby firms here- they don't exist. You might get a bit of balsa or a polywhatnot kit but that's all.

It doesn't mean that it has to die? Frankly, I can hear a few squeaks from people who write here on how to restore a mangle of a lathe- that didn't get tossed in the scrap bin to end up in the Far east somewhere.

My views entirely. A Chinese guy came in from HK with a £10 note 35 years ago- to a derelict area.
He's doing extremely well-- and not writing about his problems on the internet.


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## schilpr (Jun 1, 2013)

On a more positive counterbalance:
- all my older kids can fix their own cars
- all my kids have "basic" tool skills in wood and metal
- my you youngest kids (11&12) have build a car from random parts
- my 12yo son is a pretty decent blacksmith, he does demonstrations at museums regularly
- my 12yo is 3D designing things and we are in planning stages for a cnc mill
- both my younger kids have made things on mill and lathe
And the best part, they love it and brag to their friends that they can do all this. 

I own a car restoration and modification business, when I advertise that I'm hiring a get hundreds of young eager applicants that want to learn. 

The new generations will learn these skills, maybe not from schools but we need to share and teach. 

By the way I'm only 43 so still have a lot of learning and teaching ahead of me.


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 1, 2013)

> Fear not. 'Twere always so.
> &#8220;Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.&#8221; -- Socrates, circa 400 BC


`

Oh those words seem so familiar. 
as a youth I shared a small steam engine with two younger brothers. one brother still has it. My older bother is 12 years older. When he was in college and a few years beyond he had a "lab" what most would call a garden shed. a refurbished chicken coop. He had his plastic models and a unimat 3-1 . he still has the unimat. and he built one little oscillator on it. 

I learned machining late in life I went to USAF tech school or it in "97 got interested in this hobby in "01 and started exhibiting in '03. 

My son has helped in the shop made a part or two for many of my engines. has made a few pen and pencil sets.When he was 14 he designed and built his own oscillator.  he figured out how to buil one of legos. (You want to get kids attention go to a show with a lego oscillator on the table). he repaired the dryer on his own when he was 12. Now he   spends his time fixing up tinkering on old trucks and as much time as he can with his girl friend. 

Tin


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## Sshire (Jun 1, 2013)

A quick search turned up these concerns and one gem at the end

*Astronomy: a dying hobby and what to do about it!*

Stamp Collecting: A Dying Hobby?

Is coin collecting a dying hobby?

Ham Radio is not Dying. It's Dead

Concord-based 'Rockhounds' hope to revive 'dying' hobby

Canaries: A dying hobby?

"From 1982 to 2007, the average age of the stamp collecting population (at least the subset of collectors belonging to the APS) increased by 19 years. In 2007, the average age of collectors was 63. That increase should be alarming. Very few new collectors are entering the hobby. At the current rate, the hobby will die soon, unless we make a concerted effort to save it."

"Hobbies remain a mirror of their times. Imagine the bemusement of readers 40 or 400 years hence who look back on the early 21st century legions playing World of Warcraft or Halo or collecting American Girl dolls."

Finally, from www.model-engineer.co.uk
"The hobby must be dying, the topic keeps coming up at regular intervals in the magazine, ever since about 1898. All those people who have been worrying about the hobby dying over the years can't be wrong can they?
*
Meanwhile there seem to be plenty of people enjoying themselves *making things."
*












**


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 1, 2013)

The only constant with this hobby is change . in the time of thomas edison a hobby lathe was treadle powered.Electric motors were a new technology.  after world was 2 there was a surplus of machine tools and many skilled machinist. was this the heyday of model engineering? Now we have the the internet easy access to knowledge and affordable import tools. so now is a good time. and we have cnc as part of the hobby. In 20 years we may have 3-d printers depositing metal and making parts in the home shop. so one just need to draw the part on a computer. 

Sharpers are obsolete but I have one and enjoy using it. 

I think we all worries about the future our kids, our hobbies and the next generation. 

Man look at that lazy kid making the the ox pull that heavy cart with those heavy wheels to carry his load . when I was his age I had to carry it all an my back and make ten trips to the villiage . What is it with kids today and this new technology???

Tin


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## Briank (Jun 1, 2013)

My shop is in my garage. I often have the door open and welcome anyone who shows the slightest interest, but they never come.  Recently, we had two very young visitors from Ecuador. I imagined a non-stop educational tour with the boy, but it was his sister who insistently peppered me with questions, and has talked about her experience ever since. Our world is changing.

Brian


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## sjuddavis (Jun 1, 2013)

Dieing......really??

I might offer an alternate view to many of the posts in this thread. To me this is one of the best times to be in this hobby there has ever been. And there is an "underground" of younger folk (I can say "younger" I'm 56), just not in the traditional sense some of us "seasoned" folk concieve.  A few observations:

Additive machining - read 3d printing....a amazing part of our hobby (even the Homeshop Machinist Cover has a printed engine shroud on it).  Brought about by a largely younger generation of "rep rappers" that have combined the tinkering of the past with the computer of today. 

CNC availability.  Same story.  Ever have to cut a formula based curve by hand?.  CNC modified equipment ain't necessarily cheap (though closer to the homeshop budget than it ever was), but I can't remember any piece of equipment at the time I bought it as being "cheap".

Internet.  I remember the first model engine book I bought, by ET Westbury, a lot of money at the time for a young kid, but was it great!  Today I am constantly amazed at what this site and others have available free for the taking.  The only problem this brings is what to choose......what a great problem.

My point is this, there aren't 10,000 kids machining 1880's threshing tractor models, (I aplogize to those fans...) there aren't 10,000 kids machining 1/3 scale offenhausers (my passion) but there are younger folk making, building, maching "stuff". We owe them the resposibility to upgrade to their world and much as we bemoan they have no appreciation for ours.  I plan on giving my grandson a Elmer's Engine for his birthday, if I'm fortunate enough to have some interest, maybe we can build the next one together.

For what it's worth.


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## Lew Hartswick (Jun 1, 2013)

OK     Here goes:   CNC is just the beginning of the "slippery slope" to end of a lot
of this hobby machining..  When the main effort toward producing a mechanical part
is the "programming" of a computer to do the work, how long will it be till it's all done
by the computer with voice input. 
   ...lew...


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 1, 2013)

Kids are machining parts for real robots . not r2d2 or c3po but cnc machines and  things that will do a task. 
and I think any kid given the oportunity would have an rc car and want to make better parts for it.
Tin


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## geoff p (Jun 1, 2013)

I wholeheartedly agree with Rondunn, that the perceived cost of getting-started must put-off a lot of people.  Though there are a number of members on here who can boast of having fantastic machinery, there are few articles about what can be done on "primitive" equipment.
A long time ago, I was given a Stuart 10V casting set for Xmas and had it  running on my birthday, Feb 7th.  My only machine was a round-bed Drummond lathe.  My next engine was an own-design horizontal made from milk-bottle tops - thousands of them melted-down and cast.  Cost?  a bit of gas for the cooker.

When I started teaching, Design and Technology, my headteacher told me "Geoff, I love your technology, but don't throw-out the baby with the bathwater."  But even while I was there, (1987 to 1994) the school had to stop using our foundry and our forge - "Health-and-safety" y' know.

As far as CNC is concerned - I love it!  With failing eyesight I find it much less frustrating to modify my G-code until I get the desired result, than to scrap a job (usually home-made castings) because I misread the mic. or very-nears.

Geoff


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## BronxFigs (Jun 4, 2013)

Very interesting discussions, especially the perspectives coming from both sides of the Atlantic.

The hobby is changing, and changing quickly.  I can't keep up with all the machining options available.  No doubt about it, _how_ things are designed, and _how_ they are fabricated will morph right before our eyes, and we will have to make a conscious choice between the old ways, and the new ways of making things.  Maybe both.

As an example:  I just recently met a fine gent. and we became instant friends.  He's half my age. He grew up using computers, I barely can turn on my lap-top.   He has generously shared his extensive file collections with me, and, I now can, just by pressing a button, download enough drawings for engines.... flamers, steam, compressed-air, gas, nitro, etc. ... to last me several lifetimes.  I would've taken me years to collect these drawings the "old" way.  He also sent me links for the engine-building sites in Europe....so, more plans.  This exchange of information was science fiction, when I was younger.  Today, it's nothing...it's as simple as making a phone call.  Amazing.

Before you start playing a harp, put everything you design on paper, and share it.  Someone, somewhere, someday, will love it as much as you did, and will preserve your legacy.  Metal lasts, and, you don't.  However....with 3D printers.... who knows.



Frank


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## Wagon173 (Jun 4, 2013)

Well motmaulk, I think that's kind of an unfair view of it.  Naturally tech schools are in decline.  One we're coming out of a recession and two we're technologically evolving.  I'm sure my grandparents were hearing the same thing about kids always on their bikes and under their hoods when there was a perfectly healthy logging and fishing industry.  Like logging and fishing, I think that trades in most forms will continue for generations to come, but as technology and society evolve, there will be less and less need for mechanical thinking.  I can tell you though, as one of the younger members, that my grandfather is the one who turned me on to metal working and my dad got me into woodworking and construction.  We would spend countless hours in the shop.  Infact to this day when I have a snag in the machine shop I head strait to the phone and hit the grandpa button.  I'm only 27 and have been turning wrenches on diesel engines for 8 years.  I can honestly say I've never paid a mechanic to fix my car other than to put new rubber on the wheels cause I hate doing it.  I've been fixing/building motorcycles and gocarts since I was old enough to ride one.   And I'm building a functional 2-man submarine for fun.   All because my grandpa and dad made me interested.   Not that this is a stab at you.  If it sounds that way, I'm sorry.  If you have grandkids or kids that absolutely aren't interested, that's cool.  Support them in their techno hobbies.  But if you have kids or grandkids that aren't interested simply because they just don't know enough about it to be interested in it or they don't know what kind of real world aplications this hobby carries with it, then it's on you to show them.  That's my two cents worth.


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 4, 2013)

The beauty of this being a hobby is there is no pressure to purchase new technology . we can do things as we see fit . 
Tin


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## aarggh (Jun 4, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> Sharpers are obsolete but I have one and enjoy using it.
> 
> Tin



I am just dying for the day I can get my hands on a shaper, I have no real practical use for one, but I would dearly love one nevertheless! Out of all the milling and machining equipment, available (even CNC) there's something about shapers that I find especially fascinating and amazingly enjoyable to watch. Unfortunately in OZ they are few and far between!

cheers, Ian


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## OrangeAlpine (Jun 4, 2013)

Dying?  Really?  I think there is more home machine shop activity now than in any time in my lifetime (70 years).  But it is a "mature" persons hobby.  Takes  space, time, money -  things a young man does not have.  

I pined for a shop for many years, made no real progress until I was in my 50's.  I'd guess that is pretty average.  I have three sons.  The two oldest have zero interest in any of the "traditional" hands on mechanical stuff.  The youngest, twenty eight, does.  I'm sure he will someday have his own shop -  hope most of it is mine.

One out of three isn't bad, the hobby will live on.

Bill


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## Mitchg07261995 (Jun 5, 2013)

Im in the model airplane hobby as well, and even though I am only 17 going on 18 years old. I do see the graying part of the hobby of model aircraft. It used to be that people only used gas or nitro model engines and now that most of those people are getting older and dont fly any more, more and more people are going to electric flight. Those electrics bug me, i like the smell of the nitro burning the constant danger of loosing a body part. With electrics there is little to know risk, its simpler yes because no set ups are needed to get the motors to work and people do not really build there planes any more, they just buy them out of the box rtf (ready to fly) no work needed to be done. You dont learn as much by doing this and loose a great aspect of model aircrafts where you actually learn how ic engines work, what they like and need and how to maintain them, or how to build a flying model.


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## Septic (Jun 5, 2013)

It's my belief that the lack of interest shown nowadays is directly due to the influx of cheaper and more reliable vehicles, domestic appliances, computers, plant and machinery over the last few decades, combined with a massive reduction in replacement costs and modular design incorporated in almost everything we use.

Those of us who were children in the sixties and seventies were used to seeing people performing their own maintenance and repairs on cars, motorcycles, domestic appliances and anything else you can imagine in driveways and garages wherever we went due to the user-serviceability, ease of repair, easy access to second hand spares and inherent necessity for regular attention that came hand in hand with any mechanical item of the era.  So we saw "dirty hands" as a part of life.

At the age of 15 I was quite able to strip and rebuild a heavyweight 50s-60s motorcycle engine over the weekend with nothing more than a handful of spanners, a tube of Hermetite, a few quid in spares and a flat-head screwdriver, but I wouldn't dream of tackling the same job, in the same timescale on a modern version without a properly equipped workshop and a well stocked bank account, so I'm not at all surprised at the apparent lack of enthusiasm, or experience exhibited by youngsters nowadays.

Most kids today wouldn't give a beautifully built scale mill engine on a pretty wooden base more than a few seconds interest, but use a simple, single cylinder diesel to power something like a car, tank, or even a crane and those same bright, young things will queue up to "have a go" at operating it.. And engaging them like that is the only way I can think of to get them off their Playstations and into the workshop.


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## Sshire (Jun 5, 2013)

Building small engines requires patience, attention to detail, time and money. 
These are things that many younger people do not have but gain as they get older. With the requirements of a perhaps a growing family, work (sometimes more than one job), paying bills while trying to put money aside for educating children, rent or mortgage payments, those requirents for engine building are in short supply. As we get older and children become more self-sufficient, things begin to settle down a bit. 
If one has always had an interest (whether hands-on or just curiosity) in how things work or, comes across small engines by accident, as I did, the pieces are in place.
Even with an "inexpensive" mill and lathe (and I so love the posts which state that good, old USA or UK, iron can be gotten for a song. I've looked. Unless you are extremely lucky, they either require extensive rebuilding or are quite expensive), the admission price is not cheap. Walk into your shop and add up the cost of it all. Frightening.
Younger people do not have the resources to buy all that is needed, nor do they have the time to work.
I have lectured at camera clubs and the majority of the members are "greying."
My brother's hobby is bowl turning and I've seen the guys and ladies in his club.
"Greying"
My two cents


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## enfieldbullet (Jun 5, 2013)

as a younger member i guess i can chip in as well.

i'm not average in any way so i never thought of what i like as 'normal'. i am a restless person who seeks knowledge in anything. i have been into botany, gardening, woodworking, blademaking, jewelry, computers, machining and of course, engines (diesel first, then carburated ones)

i have a hobby that i feel is pretty much dead : horology. at least it 'should' be. people use digital watches now. and mechanical watches are actually worst than some digitals out there. however, people still love them and are willing to pay big bucks for a rolex or a patek phillipe. 

i see our mechanical hobby as something similar. not so many people are willing to get their hands on building engines, but any engineer worth his salt will gladly go to your shop on invitation and appreciate as much as you do the finished product. some will even propose paying you for one.

the masters of the art may become fewer and fewer but as long as the art is still appreciated it will live on. appreciation usually comes with age.

i know all along i have heard people say 'why would you do that? just buy one'. that's the way of thinking of my generation. we never saw anyone do anything. milk comes from the box and cars from the factory. people don't even consider that you would be able to make a car.

however, i must point out the 'maker' community is growing fast. see websites like 'instructables', there are thousands of like minded people floating around. adam savage comes to mind. as well as jeri ellsworth(huge fan of her work. this lady used to build race cars)

i don't think we should worry much.

i know it is good to feel appreciated and i think this is what this thread is about. that could be adressed with raising awareness about this hobby.

the question that was raised about young people not caring about engines unless they're making something move is definitely valid.


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 5, 2013)

I thought about taking up horology but I do not have the time for it. 
Tin
PS sorry could not resist !!!


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## Hopper (Jun 6, 2013)

Septic said:


> It's my belief that the lack of interest shown nowadays is directly due to the influx of cheaper and more reliable vehicles, domestic appliances, computers, plant and machinery over the last few decades, combined with a massive reduction in replacement costs and modular design incorporated in almost everything we use.
> 
> Those of us who were children in the sixties and seventies were used to seeing people performing their own maintenance and repairs on cars, motorcycles, domestic appliances and anything else you can imagine in driveways and garages wherever we went due to the user-serviceability, ease of repair, easy access to second hand spares and inherent necessity for regular attention that came hand in hand with any mechanical item of the era.  So we saw "dirty hands" as a part of life.
> 
> ...



I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Motorbikes is another greying hobby. Go to a vintage/classic bike rally or even a new Harley rally and it is greybeards everywhere. Like you, we grew up in the days of Brit bikes and by 15 knew, out of necessity, how to to rebuild a top end over the weekend, grinding the valves in with paste, rubbing the head on the concrete floor to get it flat and annealing the old head gasket so no expenditure was required. Heck, my old man even showed my how to put piston rings in the vice and peen them out with a ball peen hammer to give them a bit more "spring" instead of buying new rings. He grew up in the depression with even more unreliable old bikes for daily transport and no money for parts.

Kids today dont seem as interested in bikes, and if they do, the bike are so reliable they never have to work on them. Plus motorbikes today are too expensive for teenagers. We used to buy old Brit bangers for $10 a pop in the early 70s. These days, the older Japanese bikes have either disappeared completely or are still commanding good prices, and Brit bikes are the realm of wealthy collectors, so there is no cheap alternative.

Interesting though to note the laments that kids are more interested in "technology", meaning computers, than engineering. Back in the day, lathes and motorbikes were the technology. We all wanted the latest double overhead cam engine if we could get it, just the way today's kids want the latest super duper computer. And we built short wave radios from parts scavenged from the dump so we could listen to people from overseas. Not much different from being on an internet forum really. 

I always have to laugh at this though:
Thought it was hilarious in the 70s, now I realise I are one...
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo[/ame]

The punch line at the very end is a cracker too.


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## aarggh (Jun 6, 2013)

I personally think a large difference between us and the technology of the day, and kids and the current technology being computers, is that our technology required and enabled you to do or achieve things. Thus building motor skills in doing physical work, social skills in meaningful networking with others to seek advice or ideas, increased knowledge and a sense of achievement, and lastly and most importantly, a tangible "something" at the end of the process that you touch, feel or smell. 60 plus hours a week on Facebook for a teenage girl, or  similar amounts of time on World of Warcraft for a boy, are not only unproductive, but IMHO also lead to a growing lack of social skills, general apathy and avoidance of doing anything requiring more work than moving the mouse, and worse things, such as lethargy and depression from ultimately largely useless acts, that promote anti-social behavior in the case of the way many teenagers use Facebook for example, as well as many other factors.

I think without a turnaround in promoting educational pursuits like engineering, etc, etc, we'll be seeing an ever increasing number of kids on anti-depressants and ADHD medications at levels many would have thought impossible.

Another thing that WAS different when I grew up to now, is we had a couple of things called "personal responsibility" and "consequences". We learnt through doing, and generally knew the limits of what we could get away with, and that helped define what we did and who we became, and the interests that we held. Not to mention the fact that a lot of what we did, was born out of the fact that we didn't have money as kids! Now the kids in my 10yo's grade regularly bring $20 notes in for the canteen! When I was in late teens you were either in school or working, unemployment wasn't a career choice. Now of course teenagers now have "a gap year or two" after finishing high school, so I don't see any of this as "we all ultimately become our parents", which is true to an extent, but the argument of every generation is the same I don't believe holds water. Not when the level of aimless and meaningless distraction is so pervasive and all powerful, and there's no shortage of lack of accountability, while every kid knows theirs rights!

cheers, Ian


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## Hopper (Jun 6, 2013)

LOL, I remember my grandpa saying about the same thing in the 70s, about our motorbikes, long hair, denim jeans ( "bloody navvy's uniform") smoking cigarettes, girlfriends with hotpants "halfway up their bloody bumcheeks" , peace protests, lying around listening to Deep Purple records and so forth. 

Then I remember saying the same thing about my kid and his mates in the 1980s when video games first came out. 

I think, though, that half the problem today is parents. They don't let kids run around the district on their own like we used to. Not many ride their bicycles or walk to school any more, whereas for us it was the norm. Parents are terrified of 'stranger danger' etc and are happy to have kids at home glued to a computer screen. (Instead of rummaging through the mixture of broken glass, jagged sheetmetal and rotting household waste at the rubbish dump like we used to, before making go-karts out old prams and riding them down the steepest hill around, right across the main road at the bottom. That is how we learned our engineering!)

It seems that engineering, particularly in manufacturing, has all moved to cheap third world countries and is going to stay there, or move to the next cheap place. And with it the interest in becoming engineers or tradesmen. I know the main reason I went into the trade was so I could learn the skills to build and repair motorbikes, which I had been mucking around with from the age of 12. I suppose kids these days want to learn how to fix/use/program the computers that have taken the place of such traditional boys' pastimes as bikes and go-karts and model boats etc.


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## Chriske (Jun 7, 2013)

BronxFigs said:


> Guys, no one lives forever, and we all get old.  Get your creations on paper.  I'll bet that there are guys on this forum that will take your sketches, dimensions, parts representations, etc, and clean them up in a computer and give you back readable, understandable, drawings.  Do it.  Please.  Tick-Tock!
> 
> Frank



Splendid idea ...!

If there are some sketches out there just scan/send them to me, I'll make some decent drawings of them.
I hope some other guys on this forum are willing to help doing the same...?
And no worries guys...! I absolutely will* not* take any credit for these drawings in any way...!

Chris


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## ConductorX (Jun 12, 2013)

I have two daughters.  I have taught them both how to weld, change a flat tire, change their own oil, I have always had old cars around and encouraged them to help me tinker with them.  They just don't have any interest.

My granddaugther will be 3 in October.  I have bought her a log building toy and a jar full of plastic nuts and bolts that she can assemble, by shape, size and color.  This past weekend I was working on my wife's car. I had some 1/4-20 screws, washers and nuts on the table.  She asked what I was doing and I explained that cars are put together with nuts and bolts.  I demostrated how they work just like the toys in the jar.  In a few minutes she put together all the screws with a washer and nut.  It is just taking the time to show and demonstrate how things work.  I plan to encourage her but there is no promise that she will love mechanics or music like her mother.  Or perhaps something else entirely.  

I exposed my kids to everything, computers, model rockets, music, sports, mechanics, welding, wood working and they didn't stick to any of it.  In fact they seem to be still searching.

For a short time I had an "apprentice" a young guy that wanted to learn about VWs. His desire was only to go as fast as possible with the loudest possible stereo system.  I keep hoping to find another person with the passion, in the mean time I keep looking and hoping.

"G"


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