# Knurling tool photos for Kerrin Galvin



## bazmak (Aug 14, 2017)

Kerrin wants to make a knurling tool.I am not sure what photos are still
accessable so will post a selection and answer any questions.Anyone else
wants to make one please ask thru this thread


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## Buchanan (Aug 14, 2017)

That is a neat tool storage system!


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## Kerrin Galvin (Aug 14, 2017)

Hi Bazmak,
 Thanks for posting up the pictures. They are a big help! Question for you, it appears that you have offset the setscrews towards the outer end, giving clearance at the tool holder end.....understandable, at a guess 3 mm? Also back from the working face 1.5 or 2 mm? Also understandable as if the wheels are centered they will over hang the block 1.5 mm.

Cheers Kerrin


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## bazmak (Aug 14, 2017)

Nothing is very important but the wheels are just clear of each other
and do not rub.If the wheels are further apart then they may cut better
but not cut small dia bar.I was very happy with what is shown and did not experiment any further. I call the 2 parts the knurl head and holder
The knurl head is turned from 25mm sq bar to 16 dia x 10 long and drilled
6.5 clear for M6 alllthread. The 25mm sq is lightly cleaned and faced to nom 25lg. The pivot fixings are 14mm from mounting face and 7mm from the front
to give wheel o,hang at the front of 7mm and rear clearance of 4mm 
Non of which is very important.The boby has various forms to suit the lathe and toolholder.I made 1 for the small qctp and 1 for the large qctp and 1 to clamp in 
a std 4 way toolpost. Also a solid block one nom 40mm sq to sit on the 
clamping pin on the compound.Whatever suits you. It is important to get the knurl wheels that have a sharp corners as that is what doues all the work
Some have radius corners and would be no good.Although mine show no signs of wear they could easily be ground on the flat faces to renew the corners.I bought on Ebay a single wheel knurling tool that came with 3 
sets of wheels and then bought another pitch pair to give me a full set
All for about $20. When you make the knurl head make 3 or 4 and fit the wheels.Then you only have to undo the m6 knob to change the wheels
My first one i made shouldered studs from cap screws but later made brass top hat bushes and used smaller fixing button head cap screws.Will post further photos when i find them. Regards Barry


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## Kerrin Galvin (Aug 15, 2017)

Hi Barry,
 Thanks for the details! You have confirmed what I was thinking. I have a block that would make a holder, but will look at making a quick change holder as well.

Cheers Kerrin


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## bazmak (Aug 15, 2017)

found another photo showing the brass bushes.The last description was incorrect in regards that the knurl head is drilled and tapped for M6 and 
the holder drilled clear for M6 althread


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## Kerrin Galvin (Sep 29, 2017)

Hi Barry & All,
Almost finished my knurled to Your design!
So here's the pictures....


This is a block I started on to make a QCTH out off then thought better of it & brought one! So time to make use of it. So I measured up all my holders & drew them up in CAD & off to see my local water cut guy! He pointed out that time on the table costs, so if I could reduce the thickness I'd save, so back home & on to the bandsaw....


Not long latter


A few days latter...




You will see that on the left side it doesn't look great, the cause was the jet run out at end of cut, fixed with a couple of strokes of the file! If I had it cut from plate it would of been fine.


Here's the tool holders, made as a pair, & my hi tech linisher for the clean up!


Here's a family shot so far! The main holder has be cut down to size...I love my bandsaw!...drilled thru 6.1mm, counter bored 16 mm x 11 deep, the tool holder "posts" are 16mm x 10mm long

The next 3 shots show how I set the tool holders in mill using an ER block & rotating them to 45 degrees to cut the scallop out then set to 78degreess to cut the relief






More to come

Cheers Kerrin


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## Kerrin Galvin (Sep 29, 2017)

Hi again,
 Here's the rest of the photos....
 Quick mandrel to hold the brass bushes for final sizing


The 4 tool holders!


Setting to center height, you might be able to see the laser dot on the corner of the holder...


First cut! I put on 0.5mm, 60 rpm & a slow feed...looks pretty good me! This is going to be the nut for the holder




Hopefully you can also see the swarf that was produced....these really do cut! The swarf coming off the top knurling then gets added to the lower, I had made the brass bushes to give minimal space between the knurl & holder, the swarf got in & locked the lower knurl up! So I took a little off the top hut on the bush, made things much better.
So a question for Barry.....how much space did you allow?
Here's trial two....the first picture show what happens when, on the left the knurls aren't on center, the right after adjusting & the results





Thanks too Barry for a fun project that I'm sure will get lots of use over the coming years! If you are still think about making one....go for it!

Cheers Kerrin


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## bazmak (Sep 29, 2017)

great to see it works ok for you. Try different speeds around 180 and hand feed in then out with a full depth of cut about 30 thou. The knurls only need to set to approx centre,then the screw unlocked to allow the knurls to float to centre
then can be nipped finger tight.A knurled screw or plastic knob works well
So have you made 3 heads for c,m and fine knurls.Looks good keep posted


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## Kerrin Galvin (Sep 30, 2017)

Hi Barry,
 Here's the finished knurling tool.
As you can see made 4 heads with 4 different knurls. I just brought the wheels. First thing to make was the locking knob, then the height adjuster for the QCTH 





I'll have a play with speeds & feed when I have time, thanks for the pointers.
Not sure how much use the fine or coarse ones will get but at $15 for the wheels not really an issue. Can always get some other pitches & swap them around.

Cheers Kerrin


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## bazmak (Oct 3, 2017)

Reposted as requested for gerrit. Photos by Kerrin who has also made one
Dont be afraid to experiment with speeds and feeds etc.It works well for me
but maybe can be improved upon


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## gerritv (Oct 3, 2017)

A beautifully simple implementation.
Thank you!. 

I will adapt to my .75" diameter knurls and post my results in a week or two.

Gerrit


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## goldstar31 (Oct 3, 2017)

Kerrin
             I regret not ticking a 'Likes' because I'm not the world's best nurler or advocate QCTP's( cos I'm a Dodo which has lost its last egg!

What I did like was the use of your little angle gauge thing on a 6 x 4 saw.

I was surprised to find how versatile you used them both together.

Thanks again

Norm


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## bazmak (Oct 3, 2017)

never too old learn et Norm


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## goldstar31 (Oct 4, 2017)

bazmak said:


> never too old learn et Norm


 

I might buy another one of these things.  

It's like buying canaries for the cat- you can't have too many:hDe:

N


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## kiwi2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi,
     Is there a video showing how this system works? I don't understand it. Must be getting too old.
Alan C.


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## Kerrin Galvin (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi Gerritt & Norm,
 It was a fun project that has given me a great tool at the end! 

Norm,
 The digital angle gauge is a neat tool. Makes it easy to set things like the head in the mill to be consistent angle between parts...even though it's not required here! As to the QCTH yes well I love mine! It would have been far cheeper to make a block to fit an existing holder....it cost the equivalent of 3 off the shelf holders for the water cutting! Oh I also made a boring bar holder one for a 20mm boring bar that I have been using rather dodgy for a number of years, it'll get more use now it's a lot safer to use! 
Make one Norm you will find that knurling becomes easy! My procedure is start the lathe, move the knurls up so both are rotating, lightly tighten the knob just enuff to hold the tool holder, move the cross slide back towards the tailstock, the knurls will stop, put on your cut, on the 1.0 mm knurl I've been using 0.5mm engage the power feed & watch the knurls form! Apply LOADS of cutting fluid. One cut, perfect knurl! Well to me they look pretty good. Just did another yesterday on Barry's suggestion I step up the speed from 60 to 120 rpm & a feed of 0.044 mm/rev worked great.
There was a couple of comments on Barry's post about these not cutting, on this mine sure leaves a a lot of cuttings for a system that doesn't cut!
 My bandsaw has had a few....understatement......mods done to it about 12 months ago here's a link if you are interested in another project.......

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,6363.0.html

Barry,
 I had a light bulb moment yesterday when I had a sort up of the lathe tools. The tool heads don't need individual threaded rods! It dawned on me that the knob fitted securely to one rod could be screwed into the head required, for me it will make storage easier!

Alan,
 Barry's post on knurling has a couple of videos....think the title is "help on knurling " 

Cheers Kerrin


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## goldstar31 (Oct 4, 2017)

Thank you for a different slant on things. I realise that my (t)rusty 6 x4 saw is probably more capable than I'm using now.

Unfortunately I am banned from the web site mentioned. Why I am a pariah is remains unclear. Probably this happens when someone has been making models since- would you believe- 1939 and I made my first doodle bug engine at 14 years in 1944. Between the Luftwaffe and me, there was little to choose!
I can repeat my delight in finding something that hasn't been flogged and flogged on various sites and seems to be a refreshing change.


Norm


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## gerritv (Oct 5, 2017)

Progress so far. I decided to mount the knurl carrier at an angle onto the mounting block so that I don't have to rotate my QCTP for knurling. Still have to make some brass bushings and trim the face of the carrier to clear work piece. The mounting block will get milled down to fit an AXA tool holder. (don't have a large enough 60 degree dovetail cutter to make a full block.)

The wheels are .75" diameter, carrier and mounting block are .75 and .875 square cold rolled. SHCS are 10-24 and 10-32.

Gerrit


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## bazmak (Oct 5, 2017)

Like the idea of moumting the head at an angle although it does cpmplicate things as you will need more backrake/clearance on the head and rotating the holder only 2 degrees is sufficient for the wheels to cut well. As well as a holder for the qctp you can also make a holder to fit the 4 way toolpost or even directly to the compound.I have tried all methods and swap between them
I fitted allthread to all the heads and have 4 in total each with 4 different pitch rollers.I much prefer to just swap head assys between laths/holders.Also tried
knurled thumbscrews (homemade0 and plastic knobs.Let us know how you go
with the 19mm dia wheels


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## Kerrin Galvin (Oct 6, 2017)

Hi Norm,
 That a shame on the banning. Did you try the link? You don't need to be a memeber to view.

Gerri's,
 That looks to be coming on nicely! Keep up the good work. 

Cheers Kerrin


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## gerritv (Oct 7, 2017)

And we are done. I am calling this a success although I still need to read up on depth of cut on some of the commercial vendor sites.
I will be cleaning up the sharp edges and blackening the tool etc. but very happy with the results. The 30° angle results in almost square knurls. I used manual feed, .015 in feed. Powered feed might result in better quality but for most things this works great.
Because of the angle I ran a 10-32 SHCS in from the top of the carrier head. Once adjusted it doesn't need to be done again.

I will order a diagonal wheel to see if I can make a carrier head to do straight knurls as well.

Thank you bazmak for the excellent design, much easier to make than some of the other examples out there.


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## Kerrin Galvin (Oct 7, 2017)

Hi Gerrit,
 Looks good! They work extremely well don't they?
Guess I should've just made mine as a block to fit a standard tool holder, as you have done, it would have been lots cheaper! But it reduced the overhang & I'm happy with mine.

Cheers Kerrin


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## gerritv (Oct 7, 2017)

If I had a larger 60° dovetail cutter then it would have been direct mount for me as well. But didn't want to put the project on the shelf while waiting for a cutter to arrive.


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## bazmak (Oct 7, 2017)

Good on you both and glad it works well.If you read my thread you see
i started with the basic idea and not knowing the results.First was a fabricated holder from angle and flat welded together.This proved the concept and proceeded
to work thru various holders from solid blocks to clamp in the 4 way toolpost
before arriving at the current model.with different heads and various bodies
to suit the QCTP etc. During my experiments i found that the depth of cut was
about 15 thou for fine knurls to about 35 thou for coarse knurls. For short knurls i prefer hand feed,with a single pass on alum and  brass and a couple of passes on steel etc. Hand  feed in AND out gives a crisper knurl to brass
As you say the additional angle gives more of a square knurl.I just angle the wheels at a nom 2/3o,to give a diamond pattern.This also gives a lead in
for the in cut and and a nice bite/finish cut on the out.No doubts lots to learn
so enjoy playing about and please keep this post going.What i like now that most things are sorted is that i have a no of tools i can just pick to suit and know i will get a consistant good quality knurl without straining the lathes. Speeds between 150 and 250 rpm
I finished with lots of bars of different materials which i gradually used up. I found it better to knurl first before finish turning


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 7, 2017)

There must be a missing factor in the design because it works but manages to make Cut Knurling look like not-so-good Formed Knurling. 
I'm guessing that the issue is angle because my Cut Knurling tools need adjustment for diameter and can produce poor knurling if not correctly adjusted, 

 - Nick


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## gerritv (Oct 7, 2017)

I'm still learning about depth of cut and feed rate so perhaps there will be improvement. Although I don't expect commercial quality, I can at least produce 'acceptable to me' knurls for the first time 

I agree on the lack of adjustment being a potential problem beyond some diameter range. I have however seen commercial cut knurling tools with no adjustment either, I think Dorian has a range of 3 to cover the diameters?
Overall this type of knurling is very sensitive to the wheels being centered accurately, every style/brand emphasises that.

Edit: Having just re-read the Dorian catalog, there is a lot of guidance there on how to re-design the carrier head for more predictable knurls. For now mine is 'good enough' but will very likely revisit with a new carrier head at some time.
http://www.doriantool.com/wp-content/uploads/SEC-H-Knurling-Tools_LowRes.pdf

Gerrit


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## bazmak (Oct 8, 2017)

I have no idea how much the Dorian is,but guess at 100s of dollars
I am happy with mine for the price.As you say its much better than 
a crush knurl but not as proffessional as a dorian


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## gerritv (Oct 8, 2017)

USD600-900 for the Dorian. Never going to happen here 
But, much can be gleaned from their catalog.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 8, 2017)

gerritv said:


> I'm still learning about depth of cut and feed rate so perhaps there will be improvement. Although I don't expect commercial quality, I can at least produce 'acceptable to me' knurls for the first time


This brings up an interesting question have you seen any reference on how to calculate feed rates for such knurls?



> http://www.doriantool.com/wp-content/uploads/SEC-H-Knurling-Tools_LowRes.pdf
> 
> Gerrit


Interestingly I downloaded that catalog last week at work, looking for dovetail cutters.


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## WOB (Oct 9, 2017)

Nick Hulme said:


> There must be a missing factor in the design because it works but manages to make Cut Knurling look like not-so-good Formed Knurling.
> I'm guessing that the issue is angle because my Cut Knurling tools need adjustment for diameter and can produce poor knurling if not correctly adjusted,
> 
> - Nick



BINGO!   For some reason this entire thread has the knurl cutters being dragged backwards so the teeth contact the workpiece first rather than the flat edge of the cutter as is required for true cutting.  

WOB

Cut knurling is made like this: 

View attachment CUT_KNURL_2017_10_09_21_27_10_230.PDF


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## bazmak (Oct 9, 2017)

you are correct.I have had the wheels set to lead in which does not cut efficiently however the feed back out does then cut properly to produce a crisp knurl.Next time i will reverse the lead angle from positive to negative so 
the main cut is taken on the feed in and also check if its better to wind the tool out after the infeed cut. My knurl wheels also have a sharp corner,SOME DONT
but i have thought of grindinding tie leading face to improve the cutting corner
So far i am happy with the results however there is always room for improvement,glad to see others putting some thought in to it


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 10, 2017)

Single wheel cut knurling tools are simply adjusted for height so the cutting takes place on centre. 
Add a second wheel spaced around the diameter and it's possible to see that the angle of presentation and spacing of the two wheels must be different for different sizes of stock, if optimum cutting alignment of the wheels is to be maintained. 

 - Nick


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## bazmak (Oct 10, 2017)

On my original thread i used from 12 dia to 50 dia on different types of 
metal.Some produced better knurls than others.With the wheels set almost touching it cut between the range shown.However i realzed theat there is an optimum angle to be formed by a combination of wheel centres/positions
and barstock dia..I did not proceed any further with trial an error as most 
knurling would be done between these sizes and making the wheel centres
adjustable would be complicated.As i said i would love for anyone to try different ideas and post results


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## gerritv (Oct 10, 2017)

Except that Dorian does not adjust the angle of the cut wheels for the range of .5 to 1.5".
Indeed the way Bazmak,  Kerrin and I built our versions we are not cut knurling in the usual sense. But is is an approximation that produces ok knurls.

I had a very close look at page H28 of their catalog. The rake is 15°, the angle between the wheels is 60°. Using .5" wheels they get the .5-1.5", .75" wheels for the  range 1"-5" and 1" wheels for 2"-5". Essentially the spacing between the wheels increases to get the range. You can do a screen shot of an enlarged section of their catalog page and determine the relative dimensions empirically etc.

I will be remaking my tool, the present one will become yapw (yet another paper weight) Thankfully I don't have too many of those yet 
I should have it done sometime next week, there are a few other projects in the way.


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## gerritv (Oct 10, 2017)

Wizard69 said:


> This brings up an interesting question have you seen any reference on how to calculate feed rates for such knurls?


The first 20 pages to the Dorian catalog has a wealth of information on knurling, this would apply to both cut and crush knurling. Covers diameter of work, SFM ranges, depth calculations etc.


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## bazmak (Oct 10, 2017)

Also just realized my last statement is incorrect.Changing the lead angle
does nothing.With the wheels set as shown then its the outfeed that
does the best crisp cutting.Reversing the wheel angles will then produce the best cut but the cutting forces will be trying to force the wheels off the pins
These thoughts crossed my mind but i did not want to go down this pathe
as i was happy with the results i was getting
Also thought about grinding 2 chamfers on a pair of knurling wheels to give
 a smaller cutting area,but again went on to other things.If anyone feels
like throwing some time and effort and share results then i will share copyright


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## WOB (Oct 11, 2017)

If anyone wants to make a real cut knurling tool similar to the Dorian tool,  Home Shop Machinist magazine, March thru Dec. 2010 contain the construction dwgs. and instructions.   It is somewhat complicated to build, requiring 3 small gears to be made or purchased, but is no more of a challenge than many of the simple motors we build.  I do believe the author over-complicated the design somewhat by specifying ball bearings for the wheel shafts.  All the commercial tools I found on-line appear to use simple bronze bearings instead and I have found that it works perfectly well.   After all, RPM is low and the cutting oil provides more than sufficient lube for the hardened steel knurl cutters running against bronze thrust washers.  The tool provides synchronized adjustment of the cutter spacing to accommodate different work piece diameters.   Once you get the hang of it, it will produce excellent quality knurls in brass, aluminum, and soft steel.

WOB


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## gerritv (Oct 11, 2017)

The Dorian style does not have adjustable pivots, the AccuTrak,  Hardinge and Zeus ones do. The article you mention is in essence a Zeus clone.
Personally for hobby use I find that version excessively complex. The Hardinge style is much simpler and just as effective (to quote a good friend of mine who has one of each). Several build articles exist for those simpler ones, e.g http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/Cut_Knurler.html and http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/cut-knurling-how-done-138092/index2.html

This page describes the build of the one in HSM http://thebloughs.net/cut-knurling-tool/

I will post some drawings of the replacement carrier head for Bazmak's style as soon as I dust off my CAD skills a bit. In the meantime a doodle of my new version is attached:


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 11, 2017)

gerritv said:


> Except that Dorian does not adjust the angle of the cut wheels for the range of .5 to 1.5".



Not being adjustable is the reason for it having such a narrow range. 
My large Integi knurling tool covers a range of 5mm to 250mm ;-)  

 - Nick


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## gerritv (Oct 11, 2017)

At a list price of over $1200 your comment is more or less irrelevant in this present context? (Nick I initially misinterpreted your comment and realized later that there is a wink at the end, sorry for sounding snarky.)

If the work you need to do is within the range of .5-1.5", what reason is there to increase complexity? Easy enough to make 3 carrier heads to cover the full range. 3 1" cubed blocks of steel , a bit of milling and drilling and voila.


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 12, 2017)

gerritv said:


> At a list price of over $1200



Keep your eye on eBay, mine was ex-industrial and needed 1 new wheel and a new bearing/carrier, price was around 1/10th of that  
They come up for sale more often than you'd imagine, I found one listed and sent the link for a friend to buy in April this year for a similar price. 

 - Nick


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## gerritv (Oct 13, 2017)

WOB said:


> BINGO!   For some reason this entire thread has the knurl cutters being dragged backwards so the teeth contact the workpiece first rather than the flat edge of the cutter as is required for true cutting.
> 
> WOB
> 
> Cut knurling is made like this:



I took your comment to heart but here is a commercial grade tool (Same brand that Nick has) that does not cut with the leading edge:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46mPFZrVAKk[/ame] at 1:30 in they cut-knurl with similar configuration to what Bazmak et al started with.

Nick, can you confirm if yours cuts on leading or trailing edge f the wheel?

Gerrit


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 13, 2017)

Mine cut the opposite to how Bazmak and the Integi Video show it

This animation shows how I use mine - 

https://youtu.be/7PwBwQR2LNg 

and this one - 

https://youtu.be/ViRHsf9_VRg

My knurls are all "Quick" branded so I do it their way ;-)


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 14, 2017)

If you analyse it logically then with any system worth using you must be able to knurl to a stop point and have a consistent cut to the end. ;-)


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## WOB (Oct 14, 2017)

gerritv said:


> I took your comment to heart but here is a commercial grade tool (Same brand that Nick has) that does not cut with the leading edge:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46mPFZrVAKk at 1:30 in they cut-knurl with similar configuration to what Bazmak et al started with.
> 
> Nick, can you confirm if yours cuts on leading or trailing edge f the wheel?
> ...



There is something odd about the knurling tool's teeth at 1:33 just as it reaches the end of the cut and is retracted.  The knurls stop spinning and you can see the leading edge is beveled.  This is not a conventional cut knurling tool like the Zeus.  It makes me think it is actually a kind of pressure knurling since the bevels would negate cutting if fed into the workpiece in the conventional manner.   I believe the reason it was done that way is to avoid cutting into the pressure knurled band just to the left which is larger in dia.  than the cut knurled area being machined at 1:30.  Maybe.   Just a possible explanation.

WOB


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 15, 2017)

Whatever direction the knurls are intended to move no manufacturer will have 2" of tool body sticking out in front of the knurls, at the very least that would render it impossible to knurl a short part in the lathe ;-)


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## RM-MN (Dec 23, 2017)

Since I don't have the square bar stock on hand and the lathe with the 4-jaw chuck is in the unheated garage where it is below zero faherenheit is there a reason I'm not seeing for not using round stock that can be turned in my mini lathe in my warm basement and then milling a couple flats where the knurls would run?


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## bazmak (Dec 23, 2017)

Still watching this thread with interest and soaking up all the comments
As most of us i do not use the knurling tools on a daily basis but i am happy
to knurl a few items all at once say to build up a stock of thumb screws
I can now happily pick at short notice any no of knurl heads to fit either lathe
and produce satisfactory knurls.Not perfect knurls and not at a cost of $100s
I am very pleased that some people have found success and others are thinking
of improvements.When i get around to it my next thought is to to try to reverse the the angle of the wheels so the cut is more prominent on the in rather than the outfeed.This would be an improvement where the knurl is longer and not to a shoulder. Just a thought to keep this thread open


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## Nick Hulme (Dec 23, 2017)

Attached images of my favourite tools


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## Nick Hulme (Dec 23, 2017)

This is an 8mm brass bar knurled with my larger Integi tool as a test to see what a coarse knurl on a small bar would look like


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## 10K Pete (Dec 23, 2017)

Dang! It's a gear cutter!!

Pete


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## Nick Hulme (Dec 24, 2017)

10K Pete said:


> Dang! It's a gear cutter!!
> 
> Pete



I'm glad it's not just me thinking that :thumbup:


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## tornitore45 (Dec 26, 2017)

> That is a neat tool storage system!


Very true.   For those that have the more popular dove tail holder a length of angle bar mounted like this " < " allow to hang and slide all your holders.


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