# Which mill would you get?



## Generatorgus (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm thinking about replacing my old mill, a Grizzly Mod.G1005Z http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill-Milling-Machine-25/G1005Z, with another Grilly Mill. Either a Mod GO619 http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619 , or a larger Mod. GO484 http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-x-32-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0484.
The old mill is a post type glorified drill press, which works fairly goog, except for the post mount, which is difficult to clamp and locate, the head has a tendency to creep upward a bit whem I'm milling. Also I screwed the gear tooth rack to the post so as not to have to relocate every time I raise the head for tool changes, but that also is not perfect. I only found that this type of mill was not the ideal milling machine after the fact. As I'm currently messing around with my first casting kit and I'm a tad nervous, I have decided to cut my losses and move on. The extra cost for the larger one is not a real big issue, bigger is better, but I also feel that I can get along with the smaller mill.
Not that either of my Grizzly choices for a new mill is the ideal milling machine, but rather an upgrade, which fits my budget. I would rather a Bridgeport, used or better yet new, but I don't have good luck with used equipment and new is out of the question.
The smaller GO619 is about the same size as my old mill, and my DROs will fit it, as well as my 3/8 clamping set. It also has a tilt head, a tapping feature and infinetly variable speed.
 The larger mill has all of the above except variable speed, but does have a power feed column and table. It also has a base with a coolant trough and a work light.
I would appreciate comments from any of you who has either of these macines and also any comments pro or con as to my choices.


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## Omnimill (Nov 30, 2010)

If you have the money and the space I'd go for the larger mill, it's going to be considerably more solid than the small one. Just make sure you can move it into place once it's arrived!

Vic.


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## Davo J (Nov 30, 2010)

I think you would be going backward with the smaller one and would be looking to upgrade again in the near future.
Their are a lot of brands around that are like the larger one and I have seen them on sale over their a lot cheaper than Grizzly's price.
Here is one for $1,660
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=325-5184

Dave


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## kcmillin (Nov 30, 2010)

IMHO I would go with the Gear Head Mill. Much more beef for rigidity. Also the power feed on the Z and X are a very nice feature. If I had to buy another mill it would be that one.

Kel


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## RMS (Nov 30, 2010)

I would also go with the larger one (G0484) looks very rugged and solid with nice features. I think the cast iron base is a nice feature as well, maybe not so important but nice. If money is not an issue, granted its $880.00 more but I do think its still worth it!

Go for it!

Rob


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## Generatorgus (Dec 1, 2010)

Well guys, it seems to be unanimous, I was leaning toward the bigger one myself. Thanks for the reinforcement. It was my frugal side telling me to settle, which is why I ended up with the wrong machine in the first place. The guy at Grizzly even told me they did not recommend it for milling, but I put it down as trying to sell me a more expensive machine. Grizzly ought to start calling the round post machines, "The Glorified Drill Press Machine". As far as cost is concerned, I gotta keep reminding myself that I'm only playing, as I tend to get carried away on play time stuff.
My first choice was the GO519, at $1695, which seems to be the GO484 without the buttons and whistles. The GO519 only comes in three phase and it looks very similar to the Enco that Davo referred me to.
I chose Grizzly mostly because they have fairly decent machinery for the price and a location about an hour from me, I can go look at it and they will probably have it in stock. I'll save shipping but will have to pay PAs 6% sales tax. 
Back to being frugal, do you think it's OK to cut a DRO scale. My way of thinking is I could get by with only buying one new scale for the X-axis. All the scales on my machine are going to be to small for the new machine, if I try to use them for their current function. If I could cut them I can relocate the current Y-axis to be the new Z and the current X to be the new Y, and the old Z might work on the tailstock of my lathe. These are the type of scales sold by Shars.
GUS


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## Davo J (Dec 1, 2010)

It sounds like they are these ones, if so their is no reason you can't cut them down.
http://www.shars.com/products/view/2399/6quot_Horizontal_Digital_Machine_Scale

Dave


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## Omnimill (Dec 1, 2010)

Good luck with the purchase Gus, and whatever you get don't forget th_wwp when it's installed ;D

Vic.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 2, 2010)

Dave, yep that's the scale. I didn't think it would cause problems either.
Vic, It may be a while before I can post a picture of it, THERE'S NOT ONE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY :rant I called to see if it was in stock at Muncy, none there or anywhere else I was told. They are on back order til' February. I'm pretty bummed out. Usually when I make up my mind, I have to have it NOW, before I have reservations and change my mind. Hmmm, maybe the Emco mill is in stock. I'll let you guys know, I have to think a bit by the wood stove.
GUS
PS, not the first time I got back ordered by Grizzly, waited 3 months for an end mill a couple years ago.


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## RonGinger (Dec 2, 2010)

Generally I agree that bigger is better, but the bigger mill has a gear drive and a rather slow spindle speed. For model work we often use small cutters and need much higher speeds. The gear head is also a noisy beast. 

Im not sure what I would do. I just got a KX1 CNC mill and it has a 7,000 rpm spindle. A very nice machine for small work.


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## Lakc (Dec 2, 2010)

You dont say where you are located, so its hard to estimate the local used market. Here in Detroit, there are businesses closing everywhere, we have a tremendous amount of used machinery available. 

I spent three months, basically full time, checking craigslist, auctions, and generally sizing up the used machine market. I eventually found a dirty, unloved, Millport, for $550 on ebay, of all places. I passed up a lot of similar machines in the sub $2k range.


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## Omnimill (Dec 2, 2010)

Gus, I don't know how much they are where you are but I ended up with one of these, a small knee mill which I'm pleased with:

http://www.warco.co.uk/VMC-Turret-Mill-C7DAEB08E0.aspx

It looks bigger in the picture than it is. They are sometimes called a VMC or a 626 or something similar.

Vic.


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## RMS (Dec 2, 2010)

RonGinger  said:
			
		

> Generally I agree that bigger is better, but the bigger mill has a gear drive and a rather slow spindle speed. For model work we often use small cutters and need much higher speeds. The gear head is also a noisy beast.
> 
> Im not sure what I would do. I just got a KX1 CNC mill and it has a 7,000 rpm spindle. A very nice machine for small work.



Man I just watched a youtube video on your CNC mill and that thing cut very nice, looks like it may be $4-5k price tag though.....can you still buy these?

Here is the video:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61MymA7Y7A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61MymA7Y7A[/ame]


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## Generatorgus (Dec 3, 2010)

Vic, That Warco looks like a nice one. What does 1300 pounds translate to in US. I'll bet shipping would be a killer.
I'm also going to cruise around on Craigs List and Ebay. I'm starting to ask myself if I really want to hang out with the Grizz, there are other apples in the basket.


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## Omnimill (Dec 4, 2010)

£1300 = $2000 at current rates but I expect the US price would be lower - we always seem to pay more for stuff over here  

Vic.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 4, 2010)

Vic, Looked at the Warco mill again, and I'm starting to drool. Do you know if they have a US address.
GUS


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## Omnimill (Dec 4, 2010)

Generatorgus  said:
			
		

> Vic, Looked at the Warco mill again, and I'm starting to drool. Do you know if they have a US address.
> GUS



Hi Gus, they are only a UK dealer as far as I know. This is another version also UK only so you can see the cosmetic difference and name: http://www.chesteruk.net/store/626_turret_mill.htm

Try doing a search for VMC or 626 milling machine, I'm sure someone in the USA must import them from China?!

Vic.


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## Davo J (Dec 4, 2010)

This is the US equivalent from Grizzly
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill/G3102
Or with power feed
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill-w-Table-Power-Feed/G3103

Dave


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## Generatorgus (Dec 7, 2010)

Well, after much thought and time on my trusty computer and despite of my little darling's comments "What do you need that for?" and "What's wrong with your old one?", I still hadn't made up my mind. The Grizzly machine was supposedly backordered, and the next time I went to the website, it was gone off the radar.
Not wanting to trust the images on my monitor, I decided to take the 60 mile drive to Grizzly at the Muncy PA location, and take a look at put my hands on some machines so I could make my decision. "I'm just going to look", I told myself, not wanting to run off half cocked and buy something I would regret. But, at the last minute, I stopped to dig out my secret envelope, just in case.
When I got there, the GO484 that I wanted, was sitting there with a "not currently in stock" sign on it. On to the next logical choice, it was in stock, but now I'm another grand higher than my first choice, and the power feed would break my bank.
I spied a salesman and questioned him as to when the GO484 would be available. and in the course of conversation told him how it disappeared off the radar. A quick check on his computer told him it was discontinued. Being quick to think I asked if I could buy the floor model. He said he didn't see why not as it would have to be taken off the floor anyway. 
Long story short, It is now sitting in my shop where my old mill sat.











Took me all day.
GUS


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## metalmad (Dec 7, 2010)

Nice one Gus
u were lucky the missus did not find your secret envelope
 ;D
lucky so and so, lol
Pete


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## Omnimill (Dec 7, 2010)

Excellent Gus, glad you got something nice!

Vic.


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## don-tucker (Dec 7, 2010)

Yes, glad you are sorted and I'm sure you will be happy with it,those "secret envelopes" come in handy don't they,I have one of those at least I did when i looked last. ;D
Don


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## techonehundred (Dec 7, 2010)

Great Purchase. Thm: But it looks like it is "Temporarily out of Stock" You need to put a vise on it and clamp up some *Stock* and start making chips. :big:


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## RMS (Dec 7, 2010)

Holy Hunk of Milling Madness! Nice purchase! Just hope she does not find out about this secret envelope thing....  ;D


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## Generatorgus (Dec 8, 2010)

Guys, thanks for the replies. 
The little woman knows about my secret envelope, but doesn't know about my super secret envelope. 
I'm going to dip into the dwindling secret envelope and order the one new DRO scale that I'll need. I think my 3/8 clamping set will do for now, the tee nuts seem to have enough grab, or maybe I'll make some chips milling out a few larger ones.
The new mill raises a couple of new questions for me.
Are the power column and table drives intended to be used in cutting operations or just for a quicker less tedious way of moving from one position to another?
When tilting the power head, it there any shortcuts to bringing it back to a accurate vertical position? I didn't have that problem with the old mill, at least not that I knew. I can't see trusting the angle scale for accuracy.
I think I'll spend some time today making some mounting brackets for the DROs and getting familiar with the new toy, as I didn't even get in the shop yesterday.
Boy, is it cold here for this time of year, mostly the wind chill. Makes me want to build a big fire in the shop stove and hide out there for a few days. ;D
GUS


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## Generatorgus (Dec 8, 2010)

Oh yeah, forgot to ask if that would be a good location for the DRO readout. Is mounting it on the machine a bad idea? I had it mounted low and left on the table my old machine was on and it seemed like I was always bending my neck to view it.
GUS


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## Omnimill (Dec 8, 2010)

Gus, If your old T-nuts are too small don't risk damaging the slots on your nice new mill - make some new ones!

There are more accurate ways to align the head after tilting it but a cheap and easy way is to get a length of say 1/4" - 5/16" bar just over half your table length and put opposite 90 degree bends in each end. Mounted in a collet in the quill just swing it to each end of the table and adjust the head until the gizmo just touches each end - it helps if the rod is sharpened at the table end before bending. I've made up something more solid with a dial gauge in the end but the simple bent rod can be surprisingly accurate if you take the time.

Vic.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks Vic, Ill try that. Didn't get to play with the T-nuts yesterday, I was too busy messing with the digital scales, the machine doesn't seem to offer too many options for the X axis. The Y and Z were a breeze.
GUS


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## AR1911 (Dec 9, 2010)

T-Nuts - a cheap clamping kit is $29.95. Don't mess up your new table with undersize tee-nuts.

DRO mounted to the machine is the usual way. Anyplace that's convenient, usually on a swing arm 

Power drives are for cutting. It gives you a smoother cut, and stops at the end.
There should be a rapid traverse for non-cutting travel

Getting the head to exactly 90-degrees is called Tramming. google that and you will get lots of hits and different ways to do it. It's basic knowledge you will need.
 I do like the pointer bar alternative. Lots of times the hard part is just getting close enough to get the DTI into the working range.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 13, 2010)

I got some actual time on the new mill yesterday. I tidied up the casting fits between the base and cylinder on the Little Brother, kind of a shake down cruise. Not heavy work at all, but I'm pleased with the machine so far. Usually I feel some regrets after getting something home. I felt that way with the Grizzly lathe at first, mostly because it had a fairly sloppy appearance, and lots of dirt in hidden places, I cleaned it and got over it, it does the job, I've had it 5 or 6 years and used it many times for a variety of jobs. The new mill is clean and neat and has the feel of a descent machine.
I can't wait to do some real work with it.
Now to get the old mill sold and buy some more tooling. I'm thinking a 5C collet set with some collet blocks, they look real handy.
GUS


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## Omnimill (Dec 13, 2010)

Also have a look at ER32 collets and holders 

Vic.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi Vic, I'll check them oput, I love to get input.
Found a fault with the machine, either the key is wrong for the chuck, or the chuck is wrong for the key, it doesn't engage the gear very well. Maybe the proper key was lost, being a floor model.
Not to worry, I have a nice 3/4" Jacobs with the JT3 taper, if I can get the Chinese chuck off of the R8 ,as I don't have a spare laying around. I'll try a little heat.
GUS


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## Omnimill (Dec 14, 2010)

If heat doesn't get the chuck off you can always open the chuck wide and drill through the back and then drift the arbour out.

Vic.


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 14, 2010)

Generatorgus  said:
			
		

> Hi Vic, I'll check them oput, I love to get input.
> Found a fault with the machine, either the key is wrong for the chuck, or the chuck is wrong for the key, it doesn't engage the gear very well. Maybe the proper key was lost, being a floor model.
> Not to worry, I have a nice 3/4" Jacobs with the JT3 taper, if I can get the Chinese chuck off of the R8 ,as I don't have a spare laying around. I'll try a little heat.
> GUS



Hi Gus. I picked up two key less chucks ($5 ea) at a local supplier that had bent R-8 shanks from improper dis-assembly, probably the owners used a dead blow hammer, and it didn't work. I don't think that heat will work since both parts are the same metal. I salvaged the two chucks by buying a set of chuck wedges. These are tool that you don't use often, but very handy to have in the shop to avoid the frustration of chuck removal.

http://www.jacobschuck.com/product_details.asp?pid=29

-MB


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## shred (Dec 14, 2010)

Keyed chucks like the Jacobs can be easily removed from an arbor by opening the jaws and punching the end of the arbor now visible at the back center (hand-drill chucks are often held on with left-handed screws at this location). No heat should be required.

Keyless chucks (Albrecht & clones) need wedges or chuck disassembly to remove from an arbor. Do not try the punch trick or you likely won't get the arbor off and will instead bang up important chuck parts. With an arbor you don't care about, you can drill it just behind the taper, insert a 1/4" pin and use a couple screwdrivers in lieu of proper wedges between the chuck body and arbor.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow, chuck wedges? So much to learn, so much tooling. Sometimes I wonder what the heck I got myself into. Well, can't quit now, I should have almost everything I need just about my 80th birthday. 
I read these last two posts yesterday, typed a reply, accidentally hit the wrong button and it disappeared and I quit. Having gotten some grinding debris in my eye two days earlier and putting of going to see the eye doc, until yesterday, I was in agony. The eye feels some better this morning.
At any rate, I cowboyed up and tackled the ornery chuck detail. I got the offending chuck off of the R8 arbor, by improvising a small wedge (chisel) and caught just enough of the rim on the arbor to pop the chuck with a few light taps. The Jacobs chucks had to be drilled thru and literally pounded out the old arbors. I have two and decided to liberate them while I was on chuck duty.
Also dug out a Mod. 100 3/4" Jacobs keyless, tried it on the R8, but it has brass jaws and they are worn and it won't hold bits very well. I'm thinking the brass jaws are not for everday use? Do you suppose I could straighten the jaws with a 3/4 mill?
GUS


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## lathe nut (Dec 16, 2010)

I got this one at Harbor Freight, I offered them half of what the machine sold for and told them I did not want the cabinet, course the answer was NO, after a few times in there and buying a 14X40 lathe the manager said he wanted to get rid of all the machines then he was ready to deal, he gave me the cabinet, a few weeks later I got the X2 also for one half price, I like both of them, the Mrs wanted to know why I needed two, still don't have an answer.


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## Generatorgus (Dec 17, 2010)

Lathe nut, not a bad looking machine, and wheels, too. My local Harbor Freight doesn't have many machines.


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