# Carbide tangentials for small lathes



## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 19, 2016)

A friend of mine still feel happy with a Myford Super Seven we bougth together
in 1964.The belt has been changed to Powertwist and motor is 3phase VFD.
I made him a 3 mm round carbide tangential tool some times ago.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZvs_4cADZ8[/ame]

He uses it for most turning to day but I was never really happy with the Carbide fixing screw.It was a modified UNF 3/8 24 TPI.
Metric fine thread screws are not easy to find and I want to try a differential screw that is made from a M8 countersunk with a UNF 3/8 head thread.
This gives a resulting movement of 0.2 mm per turn.
I have also invested in a swing grinder with a diamond disc and can modify 2 times 2 mm square carbide to very precise limits.
A start has been made on a pair of  Myford specific holders for 3 mm round and 2 times 2 almost square carbide.
It is my hope that the Myford Church will test the holders compared to the most expensive QCTP systems,but in the meantime I will post pictures as I go along.First picture shows about 2 hours work.
Material is 20 times 30 mm hot rolled steel.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 20, 2016)

Have 2 hours more work and the round tool one can be ready in short time but the almost square need a press operation before being threaded and made beatifull.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 20, 2016)

Pressforming complete


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 20, 2016)

Niels Abildgaard said:


> It is my hope that the Myford Church will test the holders compared to the most expensive QCTP systems.



Niels, 
Do you really mean QCTP or are you thinking of Inserted Tooling? If it's the latter then you have a point, up to a point, but still need to address many issues if you want to "Replace" them. 

Turning to LH & RH shoulders is one job where I reach for; 
an inserted parting tool (what I'd normally use on Brass);
a pair of inserted tools in quick change tool holders (shown on Brass in the first photo but usually for Stainless/Titanium);
an inserted profile cutter (big jobs where huge, fast material removal is required). 

If it's really the QCTP you aim to replace then you have a very steep slope to climb (the second photo shows some of the more common tooling I regularly use), most users of quick change tool posts have them to allow a wide range of tooling to be repeatably mounted, for many this includes not just turning tools but clamp and cut knurling tools, roller boxes, die heads, radius turning tools, boring bars, internal and external threading tools, grinding and milling spindles and more. 

I do some reasonably sized work on my long bed Super7, the QCTP with inserted tooling will give me 8mm reductions on stainless bar with showers of hot chips but no flex issues, the third photo shows a length of 30mm stainless in a chuck (although I'd more often mount round work up to 30mm in the ER40 nose of the spindle). 

If I use tangential cutting tools they will be a great addition to my arsenal, a quickly sharpened general purpose material removal tool, they won't be a replacement for something else though, and they'll have to be in quick change tool holders! ;-) 

 - Nick


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 21, 2016)

I remember Myfords as wildly overprized amateur machines in dire need of more rigidity.
Last nigth was the first try of my differential screw theme.The closing action is very nice and swiss.
It is nessecary to think of a scheme for hindering rotation of the M8 nut.
The screw head has been mahined to UNF 3/8 and runs direct in holder.
Hacksawing is good for health but i have to think of a better way of positioning the almost square tingh during first pressing.


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 21, 2016)

Niels Abildgaard said:


> I remember Myfords as wildly overprized.



They still are in some quarters, I bought mine as an ex-production machine before model engineering demand via the internet pushed the prices up beyond actual worth



Niels Abildgaard said:


> machines in dire need of more rigidity.



Yours must have been worn out, poorly utilised or badly adjusted, or perhaps mine being the long-bed with 31" between centres and having the heavier bed casting doesn't suffer from the rigidity problems yours did. 



Niels Abildgaard said:


> amateur.



Amateur is not a slight in English, it simply means that one doesn't do it for a living. 
On the other hand professional means one does it for a living and not necessarily that one is any good at it ;-) 

I will continue to give a balanced view from the other side of the fence whenever some misguided soul erroneously implies that inserted tooling or QCTPs are easily replaceable when the truth is that needs vary and that there is always space for tooling which fulfils your needs. 

Some people will get by with tooling with severe limitations which can't then be quickly and easily be swapped to an alternate, these are most likely to be the amateurs with amateur equipment that you seem to hold in such contempt


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 21, 2016)

Niels Abildgaard said:


> Hacksawing is good for health but i have to think of a better way of positioning the almost square tingh during first pressing.



Make an under or over-length tool holder that can be used as a fixture to align a section of square tool steel with the new holder for pressing. 
Loosely align to the tool holder with a shaft through the tool-post mounting holes of holder and fixture. 
Press the work hot to reduce the force and improve metal flow, a No.3 fly press would probably ease and speed the process.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 21, 2016)

I am an amateur myself and hate being fleeced by smart merchants selling superfluos and overpriced goods.
Making something better myself is more fun,
The almost square 2mm carbide holder is finished and ready for testing/comparing on a Myford.
Free and with no obligation but words and pictures.
It has already demonstrated to me that the differential closing screw is to powerfull and an overkill.
Send me a mail with postal adress and it goes of tomorrow.
Only limitt is that Future users/testers have either diamond or Carborundum for sharpening.
Corund will not do.


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 22, 2016)

Niels, 
They're a great tool, the design is good, the concept is well proven, provided the user sharpens them correctly they will perform flawlessly. 
If you start with a fixture or a round hole and hot press for your square holder I'm sure you'll get a neater aperture. 
Let me know when you do one that will fit in a QCTP holder ;-) 

 - Nick


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## Jdunbar (Aug 27, 2016)

Niels

I made one of your tools several years ago.  This quickly became my favorite tool.  The only thing I dislike about the tool holder is taking the bit out to sharpen and reset the height. It is the version that a screw runs inside the holder and pulls the bit back against the holder to keep the bit in place. It is very rigid and never slips, but I have to remove the bolt that holds the tool holder to the top slide to access the screw.  Can you please further explain how you are using two different thread pitches to tighten the bit.  

Thank you

John Dunbar


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 28, 2016)

Hello John
My present favourite way of manufacture is more or less shown here:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?p=229361#post229361

It is working to owners  satisfaction  near Seattle

The differential clamping  system parts are shown on sketch and photo.
The red screw is a normal M8 countersunk Unbrako where head has been threaded UNF 3/8.
M8 has a pitch of 1,25  mm and 3/8 Unf has ca 1.05.
Resulting  thigtening is thus .2mm per turn.
The pink M8 nut is secured with a M5 grub screw (blind threaded hole) and goes nowhere.
The holder shown is a not perfect prototype and  the differential system it is really to powerful.
The tool slot keeps on deforming.
Its for a   Myford and base needs a  material with a higher elasticity limit.
The holder shown had material from a scrap bin at the local farm machine mechanic.
16MnCr5 will be much better and nice to work as well.


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## DJP (Aug 28, 2016)

I'm not sure why this design needs to have a removable carbide cutter. A simpler holder with the carbide brazed in position might be cheaper and work just as well. Just curious if you have considered this approach.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 28, 2016)

DJP said:


> I'm not sure why this design needs to have a removable carbide cutter. A simpler holder with the carbide brazed in position might be cheaper and work just as well. Just curious if you have considered this approach.



Hello DJP

Have never considered brazed carbide.
A 3mm round 65 mm long  piece of carbide can be reground 200 times and cost  3 &#8364;. 
It takes ca 3 minutes every time.
The almost square 2 times 2 mm cost much more but is even faster to redress.
Tool rigidity is also much better in my system.
Picture shows my newest suitable for a 920 lathe.


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## mcostello (Aug 28, 2016)

A commercially made brazed carbide tool bit can also be used.


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## Jdunbar (Aug 28, 2016)

Thanks Niels, the drawing is very helpful.  I am going to try this design.

John Dunbar


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## Niels Abildgaard (Aug 29, 2016)

Jdunbar said:


> Thanks Niels, the drawing is very helpful.  I am going to try this design.
> 
> John Dunbar


Hello John

It is a  pleasure that You will make another tangential holder.
How high is the holder going to be?Square or round?What size carbide or HSS?
My Boxford is 25.14mm, a Myford I know is 16.6mm ,the latest 920 holder is 22.6mm.
Below 20mm the 2mm almost square or 3 mm round is rigth.The Myford 16.6 mm is a borderline case as I have no source of 1.5mm round or square carbide.


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## Jdunbar (Sep 3, 2016)

I have a Southbend 10K, which I believe is very similar to the Boxford.  I prefer to use HSS bits because I can get a really nice edge easily.  Thanks for the help.

John Dunbar


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## bazmak (Sep 16, 2016)

Many thanks to Niels for supplying me with 2 pieces of solid carbide
I have made 2 toolholders for the Sieg but I made them to mount in the 4 way toolpost.I had problems with the post being unable to swing with tool projecting to the underside.I then realized that the toolholder need not mount in the toolpost but could become itself a 1 way toolpost.I started with a piece of 40mm sq bar and proceeded to machine more in line with Niels design
I cut the 4mm dia carbide x 60lg in half and fixed only with a grubscrew
rather than a split clamp.Trial and error I machined a no of angles and facets
until I got where I wanted.First impressions are very good.With a 1mm deep cut in MS the finish is excerlent and I can swing the tool around.With in the the correct posn I can turn and face.Time will tell.Next I will make one using the 2mm sq carbide.Many thanks Niels for sending me down this pathe



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PywupZyd4iM[/ame]


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## bazmak (Sep 16, 2016)

Photos of the tool pos


[[URL=http://s1327.photobucket.com/user/bazmak47/media/carbide%2002_zps9rochr2i.jpg.html]
	
/URL]t


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## Niels Abildgaard (Sep 16, 2016)

Hello Bazmak and Your are wellcome in the magic circle of non QCTP believers when You are ready.
Your 4 mm round carbide can cut 2 mm deep before swarf misbehaves,but You can also run it much faster and/or more aggressive feed.
Look forward to see Your almost square 2 mm version at work.

If someone want to try my gospel You can either have the complete Myford set shown or one of the 3 sets of 3mm round and 2mm almost square.
The grinding jig rigth in picture amases me everytime I use it for making almost squares or chamfering the cutting edge to be.
Price is:
You do a little writing  and a video when ready.
Do not even dream of putting it in some form of QCTP
Donate at least 25£ to animal welfare.
Not Your own dog or cat.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFLeNPhqDY[/ame]


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## goldstar31 (Sep 16, 2016)

I am still sitting in ranks of unbelievers.  Firstly, the question of cutting material needs answering because cutting materials are actually in favour of carbon steel as it has a finer grain structure than high speed steel which has a finer grain structure than carbide.  In other words, it should take a worse edge. Of course, carbide is tougher than both and is able to hold its edge longer prior to regrinding.
The only bonus in using carbide is that the manufacturers of the bits  do almost all the work of producing a polish and the 'top' is the only facet which needs attention by the user.

Am I right? Well most long involved machinists can achieve near mirror finishes in steel using hss or plain carbon steel even with the lack of rigidity and lack of power of small home lathes. I'm not running a factory, I am running a wooden shed with a couple of small lathes near the scrapheap with wear and age. Like me, I suppose.

I recently said that I can take a dusting of steel or cast iron by the simple use of either diamond  bonded or in paste form( the modern way) or with a fine hone, probably a Wichita or Arkansas stone. Neither of the stones will touch carbides.

With the mention of sword making, I confess to a revival of interest. I was born of a family of blacksmiths who lived where the German émigrés lived.

With a sense of humour, I remain intrigued by the claim that a Damascus blade- of carbon steel can slice a feather floating in air.

Perhaps somebody will clarify my doubts

Norman


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 9, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> I am still sitting in ranks of unbelievers.



Same here, if only because my RDG Tools Dickson QCTP copy with a generic eBay holder on top of a completely standard Myford top slide is clearly capable of this- 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUI2GIGTz_c[/ame]

What rigidity problems? If you have issues doing this on a Myford or similar "Light" lathe then you have not adjusted or set up your lathe correctly or should use a feed and speed calculator until experience catches up with reality ;-) 

 - Nick

P.S. I forgot to mention that that's 100mm of 30mm 304 Stainless bar sticking out there.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Nov 11, 2016)

On 28 of august I showed a differential closing mechanism:

http://cdn.homemodelenginemachinist.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83941&stc=1&d=1472363704

My next will be strong enough and of smaller diameter



The two jaw holess are threaded with a tap UN3/8 after squeze forming of carbide channel.
The pink screw is a standard M6 Unbrako where head is threaded on my Imperial Boxford lathe UN3/8
The dark red bush is M6 inside and UN3/8 outside.
Overall diameter is less than 10 mm and can be placed 5.5 mm from  underside of holder.
This way it is possible to make a durable Myford holder of material from my favourite scrap steel container.
The bush material is  from a 12.9 Unbrako M10 bolt.
Pitch of UN3/8 is 0.907mm and M6 is 1.0 mm.
One turn of screw gives 0.093mm relative movement


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## platypus20 (Nov 12, 2016)

I've been reading this thread with great interest, I bought on of the tangential tools, from Australia, through the US rep, Village Press. After seeing rave reviews, in a few magazines and on some of the forums, it now sets unused in the bottom of the lathe tool drawer.

I tried it with HSS and carbide inserts and the finish I got on all 3 of the lathes, the finish quality was very poor. We used the grinding jig that came with the tool, the replacement jig from the supplier sent and by hand, nothing improved the finish quality. I could get a better finish with the cheap carbide inserts (TT-321 and TCMT 321) on the bargain basement tools, sold by the tool whores.

I pulled the tool out about a week or so ago, and retried it, same results. I just find it amazing that other people get good results and rave about the tool. With my reading, I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't want to work for me.

Its an interesting read.


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## Dalee (Nov 12, 2016)

Hi,

I too have been reading this thread with some interest. Though I've yet to be tempted to make a tangential tool holder. I have always found it interesting that most people enjoy good success with the tool, there are those like you who just can't make them work. Through no fault of your own.

And I've never been able to figure out a common thread as to why some people have difficulty with the tangential holders. It doesn't seem tied to machine type or condition or speeds and feeds. I wish I was close enough to see your machine in person to help figure it out Platypus20. I'm really intrigued.

To Goldstar about carbide vs HSS or even plain high carbon. Much has changed over the last 5 years of so in the manufacture of cutting tools. I'm no Carbide Charlie or HSS Harry, use what is best for the job at hand. But I do get to decide on purchasing of said tools, so I get to talk to a fair number of sales reps.

Carbide geometry was changed greatly. You no longer see as many blunt edges as we used to have. Cutting edges are now far sharper than the old days. There are finishing inserts that can take as fine a cut as your best HSS and even improve the finish. And there is HSS that can come within a hair's breath of matching carbide performance for wear and removal rates.

Much of the increase in performance has come because of powdered metal technology. The material is made, and then ground into a super-fine powder and then remade. This refines the carbide size to amazingly fine grain size. Couple with new coatings and bonding agents for carbide to increase toughness allowing for sharper edge geometry and wider tolerances to speeds and feeds, and it's a wondrous new world. Did I mention the most incredible thing? It's cheap! 

So cheap that even I ordered a 3/8"(10mm) tool holder with a pack of 10 TiN coated inserts with free shipping for under $10US. A 2mm cutoff tool on the same shank size did cost me $4US more. And they work extremely well. Well enough that I'm not sure I can afford to grind good old HSS for regular turning anymore. I for sure won't be buying any HSS cutoff blades anymore.

I do really believe and know that in any shop, commercial or home hobby, you need to be able to use HSS and carbide. And even plain high carbon tool steels have a place. You can no longer afford to stick to just one, you need to use a mix.

Dale


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## Niels Abildgaard (Nov 12, 2016)

platypus20 said:


> I pulled the tool out about a week or so ago, and retried it, same results. I just find it amazing that other people get good results and rave about the tool. With my reading, I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't want to work for me.
> 
> Its an interesting read.



Can we have  pictures of the good and the bad?Not surfaces, but tools set up on lathe?


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## Niels Abildgaard (Nov 12, 2016)

Dalee said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello Dale

It is shoking news for an old man that my superduper toolholders are maybe not worth all the effort spent.
On another forum a gentleman from Isle of  Wigth has reported a seven holder set fo 45£.
It is not that my holders are useless but the available commercial ones are maybe as good and cheaper.
Can You post a link to Your recent buys please ?I will try one myself.


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## Dalee (Nov 12, 2016)

Hi,

You made some good working tools, that ain't no waste!

I got my holders and inserts from here. http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-Turning-Tool--c-4289.html You can look through them to see what you may like. Unfortunately, the sale price I paid is over with now. Still, 12.10 English pounds for the holder(SCLR1010H06), 10 inserts(CCMT21.51), and wrench with free shipping is still dirt cheap.

I bought them because I was curious too. I was expecting to be disappointed in the inserts. But they have proven much better than I thought.

Dalee


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## Niels Abildgaard (Nov 13, 2016)

Dalee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I got my holders and inserts from here. http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-Turning-Tool--c-4289.html You can look through them to see what you may like. Unfortunately, the sale price I paid is over with now. Still, 12.10 English pounds for the holder(SCLR1010H06), 10 inserts(CCMT21.51), and wrench with free shipping is still dirt cheap.
> 
> Dalee



It is incredible.
I will take up a usefull hobby like breeding turtles .
The differential clamping works great.


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## Nick Hulme (Nov 13, 2016)

Dalee said:


> I got my holders and inserts from here. http://www.banggood.com/Wholesale-Turning-Tool--c-4289.html



Bookmarked! 
Thanks!


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## platypus20 (Nov 13, 2016)

I've bought boring bars, parting tools and numerous 1/2" shanked turning/facing tool sets from Banggood, the quality has been surprising good and the inserts are more than compressed dirt. The only downside to some people, is the delivery time, I've gotten packages in 6 days and others in 3-4 weeks, when ordering its not uncommon to get a delivery date about a month from the order date.


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## Dalee (Nov 13, 2016)

Niels Abildgaard said:


> It is incredible.
> I will take up a usefull hobby like breeding turtles .
> The differential clamping works great.



Hi,

Well, the the turtles might be all for that, but don't stop designing tools. There is nothing wrong with tangential holders. And if you want one, you almost need to make them yourself. And your latest bit holding setup is perhaps the best design I've seen so far.

I like to make face mills. Some insert style, some flycutter style. Never seem to find exactly what I want commercially.

Dale


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