# Hey, another poppin flame licker with belt driven fan



## kcmillin (Feb 2, 2010)

Well I completed one flame licker, and I want to build another one. This story may seem familiar, as Nick and I have decided to build the same engines back to back. At the same time!! Our designs may differ slightly, at least mine will. I am too afraid to use any tap smaller than 4-40. the thought of breaking a teeny tap in a part I worked really hard on frightens me. So I will replace all screws where I can with either 4-40 or some other method of fixing things together. 

More to come soon. 

kel


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## cfellows (Feb 2, 2010)

Kel,

Strangely enough, I've broken a lot more 4-40 taps than smaller ones. As a matter of fact, I think I have broken more 4-40 taps than any other. I use 2-56 taps pretty regularly and don't think I have ever broken one.

Chuck


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## kcmillin (Feb 2, 2010)

Chuck,
Whats your secret? Do you use a tapping fixture of sorts? Or am I just being to apprehensive about small taps because of my past experience with 4-40. I suppose it may be time to get on the "teeny tap horse" and ride.

kel


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## cfellows (Feb 2, 2010)

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Chuck,
> Whats your secret? Do you use a tapping fixture of sorts? Or am I just being to apprehensive about small taps because of my past experience with 4-40. I suppose it may be time to get on the "teeny tap horse" and ride.
> 
> kel



I have a small tapping guide that I made some years ago. I use it for all taps 8-32 and smaller. I hate tapping more than any other part of machining, probably because I'm a little impatient and tapping requires a slow, methodical process. Here's a picture of my tapping guide. To get an idea of size, the chuck is a 0 - 3/16" size. The base is a piece of 4" aluminum channel, the vertical column is 1" aluminum rod, and the arm holding the spindle is something I picked up at a scrap yard. I think that's a 4-40 tap in the picture.


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## doc1955 (Feb 2, 2010)

I think I have to agree with Chuck I have broken more 4-40's than anything smaller it maybe I'm over confident with the 4-40 and am more careful with anything smaller. When a smaller tap starts to get dull it goes by the way side before it has a chance to upset me. So far I've too have been pretty lucky an don't remember breaking any smaller taps.


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## cobra428 (Feb 2, 2010)

I find this to be a very handy item. Drill hole pattern. go back with this. Perfectly straight taps

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=5810267&PMAKA=325-5179



Tony


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## kcmillin (Feb 2, 2010)

I guess I should jnust do it. That tapping fixture is nice, I might convert my old drill press for this task. 

Doc, how is the weather in Jamestown, neighbor? I live in Bismarck.

kel


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## kcmillin (Feb 2, 2010)

Tony,
Ive seen those before, but I am not sure how they are used.

Do you have pictures of them in action?


kel


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## cobra428 (Feb 2, 2010)

kcmillin





I use it the mill this way I know I'm perpendicular. Tip is spring loaded and as you see goes into the little hole in the back of a tap wrench

Tony

PS also good in the lathe


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## doc1955 (Feb 2, 2010)

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I guess I should jnust do it. That tapping fixture is nice, I might convert my old drill press for this task.
> 
> Doc, how is the weather in Jamestown, neighbor? I live in Bismarck.
> 
> kel


Don't know can't see outside I'm at work right now its been cold same as there. I have a lot of relatives in Bismarck.


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## dreeves (Feb 2, 2010)

Im with all you guys. I have broke several 4-40 taps but none of the small ones even down to 0-80. I use a spring center in the mill to tap holes in place.


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## mklotz (Feb 2, 2010)

Here are some suggestions from an older post of mine...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=464.msg2829#msg2829


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## NickG (Feb 3, 2010)

I will have to take a view on the tapped holes as I don't have the sizes called for. I have BA and small metric but I only have ba screws etc. The 2-56 seems to equate to about 8ba by looking at the clearance size so I'll be using 8ba for those. Trouble is, I remember from my rocking engine I think my 8ba tap is blunt! May have to buy either some new screws or a tap!

Can't wait to see each other's progress on this one, we should be able to help each other along the way.

Nick


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## rake60 (Feb 3, 2010)

Don't be afraid of those little taps Kel.
Their depth of cut isn't as proportionate to their core diameter as 
larger taps usually are. 

I had a bad experience in my early model building days with a 2-56 tap 
in aluminum. So, two years ago I bought a box lot of 12 assuming that would
be a normal need for me.

After 2 years I am down exactly 4 pieces from that box lot.




Three of them were retired because I felt I had gotten enough service out of them.
The forth was indeed broken off in an aluminum engine cylinder. That cylinder head
has a little piece of hex stock super glued over hole with the broken tap in it.
No one will ever know which one that is. 

Rick


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## kcmillin (Feb 3, 2010)

haha, I like the super glue trick

kel


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## rake60 (Feb 3, 2010)

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> haha, I like the super glue trick
> 
> kel



Oh, I have more than one of those!
 :-X

Rick


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## hobby (Feb 3, 2010)

I do most of my tapping 4-40's right in the mill drill chuck.

As the tap advances the quill pulls down.


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## Deanofid (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm sure I've broken more 4-40 than the smaller sizes, too. I doubt very much that it is something to do with the 4-40 size, but that I probably tap 10 times as many in that size than with the smaller taps.

Just go slow at it, Kel. Use good quality taps, clean the hole after each full rotation, break the chip about every 1/3 rotation, use the appropriate tapping lube. If you're tapping aluminum, paraffin wax works very well. Brass needs no lube. Steel needs a liquid lube made for the purpose.

Dean


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## NickG (Feb 4, 2010)

I did the same on my rocking engine and put a dummy bolt in the frame - luckily I hadn't opened those out to clerance size yet so was able to tap that hole rather than give it the clearance drill.

I hate tapping in the mill as there is no feel of when it's got to the bottom and the return spring of the quill is enough to strip threads in my opinion, especially when getting near the top one the way back out. So I just use the chuck as a guide lightly nipped around the tap shank and let it slip in that using a normal tap wrench as well.

Seems to work reasonably well most of the time.

Nick


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## kcmillin (Feb 4, 2010)

Wow, I might have to change the name on this thread to, "Dont be scared, its only a tap".

Thanks for the encouragement guys. There should be some small taps on order in my future.

Anyway, I have been studying the pland for a couple days now, and am ready to start the build. I have a 1 x 2 bar of aluminum I will use for the "standard". This is what the plans call for. although a few dementions wil need to be changed to accomodate my bearing size. I plan on making it a "Full Floating design" by putting bearings on the crank journal, and valve shaft.
(no time to get to the shop, there is a break in the bitterness outside, so its real work for me) hopefully Ill get to it this weekend.


kel


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## kcmillin (Feb 4, 2010)

What do you guys think of spiral flute taps? or Spiral point taps. Are they worth the extra dough? or should I just get a good quality standard tap?
There are so many choices. I plan on using Enco, because of the free shipping. They also have grey iron, is this the same as cast iron?

thanks,

kel


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## cfellows (Feb 4, 2010)

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of spiral flute taps? or Spiral point taps. Are they worth the extra dough? or should I just get a good quality standard tap?
> There are so many choices. I plan on using Enco, because of the free shipping. They also have grey iron, is this the same as cast iron?
> 
> thanks,
> ...



I like the spiral flute tapes in a 6-32 or bigger. My experience with 4-40 spiral flute taps is they break way too easily. 4-40 and smaller, I use standard flutes. 


Chuck


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## shred (Feb 4, 2010)

I use the spiral point taps everywhere I can reasonably get away with it, down to #0 size. I don't have much experience with the spiral flute ones.


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## rake60 (Feb 4, 2010)

The 2-56 taps I showed here are spiral point taps.
I don't own any spiral flute taps personally, but I have used them at work.

The chip curls out like it would from a drill bit.
When the tap is reversed there is no chip remaining to hang up on the tap.
They are far beyond my personal hobby budget, but if I win the PowerBall 
lottery on Saturday, which by the way is up to $140 Million now, I'll buy a full
set of them!

*Side Note:
If anyone here lives in a state where the PowerBall lottery exists, the guy who
points out the importance of buying a ticket is entitled to a minimum
of 10% of any winnings. Any gratuities beyond 10% will be humbly accepted.*

Enough of the legal stuff!  

Rick


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## NickG (Feb 5, 2010)

Incidentally I snapped the no. 50 tapping drill last night when drilling for the 8ba screws. The problem is it breaks through to the first groove but the drill only goes 1/2 into the groove on mine as I held back 1/32" with the groove depth. Luckily it didn't get stuck but it was a bit scary drilling the holes. Not really looking forward to tapping them. Will just remember to stop as soon as slightest bit of resistance is felt.

Nick


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## kcmillin (Feb 5, 2010)

Well I got a little work done today. (bought a 2-56 tap from the local hobby shop)

 I Decided to start with the "standard" or the frame of the engine.

I started by milling it down to 1 7/8 square. 






Then I driled the holes. I am holding the drill in a collett. I have a question about it. 
Can you put a 31/64 bit in a 1/2 inch collett? just wondering, I have done this, but is it bad? I always drill to one size smaller with an appropriate size collet first.





I decided to go with only two screws for the base. (to simplify things) I also used an 8-32 screw, instead of 2-56. Here it is al ready for millin'.





This is all the progress for today. More to come for the weekend.


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## kcmillin (Feb 6, 2010)

I got the cylinder and head completed today. Lapped the bore and polished all the mating surfaces. I got through 6 holes before I broke the tap. (laps in concentration) So it was off to the hobby shop to get his last tap. I better be careful with this one. I only got one more hole to tap, maybee two if I decide to go with the piston design given with the plans. I could go bigger with this no problem. Next are the tricky little bits. valve gear and whatnot.

Ill get pics up in a few days

kel


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## Deanofid (Feb 7, 2010)

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> I plan on using Enco, because of the free shipping. They also have grey iron, is this the same as cast iron?
> kel



Kel, the phrases "gray iron", "cast iron" and "gray cast iron" are usually interchangeable when you're talking about machinable cast iron.  In a word, the answer to your question is yes.

I looked up cast iron rounds on Enco, just to see what you were looking at, and it says "similar to ASTM A48", which is a common grade of machinable gray cast iron. 

In general, gray cast iron is the good machining kind that we like. There are a number of types of CI, but when prints just say to use cast iron and they don't mention a specific classification, you should be able to use any kind that you can machine.

Dean


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## NickG (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice work Kel,

You're right there is no point drilling / tapping 4 holes when it really only needs 2. I don't really see the need for the thin base either, the 'standard could be mounted straight on the wood couldn't it?

Nick


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## kcmillin (Feb 8, 2010)

Nick,
 I think we could get away without using the aluminum base. I am still up in the air on what I am going to do.

kel


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## kcmillin (Feb 8, 2010)

I got the crank and con rod finished yesterday. I decided to go with a full floating crank, so there was a little modification to the plans. (OK I completley redisigned the con rod) The one in the plans is great, but a little complicated. I also made the crank throws out of brass, for looks.

Here are all the components for the crank. I decided to put a bearing on the crank journal, and I made .030 spacers to keep the bearing centered. (thats whats in the caliper)





all pressed together, I also put some pins through it to help keep it square.
you can see the locktite all over it. 





al cut and ready for install.


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## kcmillin (Feb 8, 2010)

After drilling and tapping the holes for the con rod, It was time to put the crank and wrist pin holes in it. 

With the cap off I found the edge of what will be the center of the crank bearing hole, this is the only way I can think of do get the hole perfectly centered, the eyeball aint good enough foir this. Also it makes an easy read of the dials to get the wrist pin hole drilled.





drilling the 5/16 bearing hole.





The finished con rod.





I had to mill out the standard to accomodate the larger con rod.





This design adds more mass to the recipricating parts, I may have to counterbalance it somehow. Not sure how I am accuratly going to do this? 
Any advice?

kel


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## NickG (Feb 8, 2010)

Nice work on the crank and love your con rod. At the moment I'm just planning to make to print as I don't have another 2 bearings the right size. I don't think you'll need to counter balance but it could be done by drilling some holes on the inside of the flywheel if you had to.

Nick


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## kcmillin (Feb 9, 2010)

I got the rest of the little bits done today. valve gear and all that. 

I goit it all assembled and what do ya know IT RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish i had a better camera, so I could show you more detailed pictures.

but here it is WITH VIDEO!!!

























Thanks again for the tips everone. I am really glad I want with the tiny tap.

kel


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## Deanofid (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, I'll say it runs! Good stuff, Kel.

I wish you had a better camera too, 'cause this one's not doing your work justice. 
What the heck. Buying metal stock is more important than buying cameras!

Thanks for the vid.

Dean


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## Maryak (Feb 10, 2010)

Kel,

That's great - Congratulations :bow:

Bops along very nicely. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## NickG (Feb 10, 2010)

Well done, can't watch the vid yet but will tonight. Your flywheels look much better than the original design and better than mine will. :bow:

Nick


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## rake60 (Feb 10, 2010)

Looks and sounds great Kel! Congratulations! :bow:

Rick


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## winklmj (Feb 11, 2010)

Stellar job!

Did I read that right...start to finish in 8 days?


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## kcmillin (Feb 11, 2010)

Winklmj,
actually it was 5 days from the start of the first peice. but whos counting. lol. I did have some help from some bad weather. I can spend as much time in the shop as I want. so there was definetly some full days there. It was about 30 hours all together.

kel


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## Jack B (Feb 11, 2010)

Nice going Kel your little engine really hums. This is all new to me so I hope you don't mind a question. If you keep running your engine will it lock up from heat? Anyway you did a great job.            Jack B


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## kcmillin (Feb 11, 2010)

Jack,
 When I first put the engine together I fit the piston dry till it was a verry close fit, on the jan ridders web site he explaines that the piston fit should be as follows.- while holding the cylinder up and down and plugging the bottom with your finger, the piston should not fall, when you take your finger off the piston should fall quickly and withoput resistance. Also this test is done without oil. Note: my piston is made out of leaded steel 12L14

anyway I followed these intructions and when It was time to get it running i put a little powdered graphite in the cylinder. and that is all I have done as far as lubrication is concerned.

Now the engine has ran many times and It has run for over 2 hours straight (ok just enough time to get the burner refilled a couple times) It does this the entire time between 800 and 1100 rpm, and the tempreture levels off at around 200 degrees farenheit. I continue to run the engine regularly without fail. In fact when I get done writing this post Ime going in the basement for another run.

Kel


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## Blogwitch (Feb 12, 2010)

Very nice work.

I see you are a bit like myself. When just sitting at my bench, wearing away brain cells, I get mine off the shelf and have it running, it gives the shop a bit of background music.


Blogs


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## NickG (Feb 12, 2010)

Excellent Kel,

I can't wait to get mine finished but for some reason have no energy to go into the garage at the moment, I seem to have stalled - I'm such a long way off. :-\


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## doc1955 (Feb 15, 2010)

NickG  said:
			
		

> Excellent Kel,
> 
> I can't wait to get mine finished but for some reason have no energy to go into the garage at the moment, I seem to have stalled - I'm such a long way off. :-\



Hey I can relate to that! With snow shoveling and the like I find when I finally get time I just want to vegetate for awhile :big:
Don't worry it will hit you again and you won't be able to resist and you'll finish ;D


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## kcmillin (Feb 16, 2010)

Well once an engine is running its time to make it purdy. 

I decides to go with walnut and mohogony base held together with brass pins, sittin on 4 brass legs. Then I went ahead and made a burner that was built into the base. I felt the proportion with a big burner bottle was too long, looked funny. So I made the base as short as I could.

I made the burner tank out of the brass kickplate that ,until yesterday, was attached to my backdoor.(I found the door in the garbage) I hid it inside the base and made two "spouts" , one for the wick tube and another for the "Gas Cap". 

Then, I decided it was not quit done until it was doing something.(this little popper design offers a tiny bit of usable power) So I decided to make a radiatior fan. This was also completed using the same brass kickplate. (I have alot left too) The fan is 1 inch diameter with the blades cut freehand with a dremel and then bent to an undetermined degree. (I love to get scientific, ha ha) Then I made a brass disk out of a 1 3/16 bar with a 1 inch hole in the middle, I bent a small peice of the kickplate around it and soldered it in place. Mounted it all up, made a belt out of some mystery material I have that glues well and works like a champ for belts. (verry precious)

anyway, here is the finished product.


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 16, 2010)

Congrats!

I like those engines. I think for most people, an open flame is mesmerizing and they have to question how the thing works. I'm currently one of those people but hope to someday make one and understand.

Very nice.


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## doc1955 (Feb 16, 2010)

Nice job! It's a nice runner ans nice job on the fan!


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## NickG (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow, incredible running at that speed whilst driving something aswell now. You've certainly made yours individual now Kel. Brilliant!


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## hobby (Feb 17, 2010)

Nice work.

Smooth (fast running) too.

I like the idea of it driving something..


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## Jack B (Feb 21, 2010)

Hi Kel
I just run your video with the volumn up. My wife is sitting on the other side of the room and said" wow that engine sounds great".
I agree you did a very nice job. Congratulations.     Jack B


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