# Small heat treat or ceramic oven and toolpost grinder



## Brian Rupnow (Apr 28, 2021)

In my continuing quest of making my own piston rings, I need to buy two things----A small heat treat furnace or ceramic oven and a toolpost grinder. The heat treat oven can be very small, about 6 cubic inches would work for anything I need. the Toolpost grinder should fit a lathe with an AXA quick change toolpost. There is an interesting add for "Blackeagle toolpost grinders for AXA toolposts for about $250 USA dollars. It looks like it would work for me. My total working budget is only about $600 Canadian to buy both items. I would certainly buy "Used" as long as what I bought  worked okay. If you have either item to sell, or know of someone who does, please email me at [email protected].


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## Gordon (Apr 28, 2021)

I got a used ceramic kiln on craigslist for under $100. I ended up putting some new controls on it but that was under $50 

I have no experience with this but I ran across this the other day. 





						Tool post grinder BXA Clausing South Bend Atlas lathe
					

Tool post grinder BXA Clausing South Bend Atlas lathe



					www.gameshopg.com
				




Several people have also built their own TP grinder.






						pottyengineering tool post fixture
					

pottyengineering tool post fixture



					www.madmodder.net


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## Poppy Ott (Apr 28, 2021)

My heat treatment oven is a discarded dental ceramic oven.   I came by mine by being a dentist, and this one was discarded because someone (not me, before my time) used it to melt silver for casting some none dental, after hours thing.  Silver contaminates the oven muffle and when it is then used for porcelain the porcelain comes out green.  It works just fine for heat treating steel.  Anyway, that’s not the point.  The point is periodically these things get changed out and you might find one for next to nothing from a dentist, or more likely a dental lab.  Also, just like manual lathes being gradually abandoned by commercial shops and replaced with CNC machines, CNC is invading dental labs and ceramic ovens are going out of use, which makes you chances of landing one even better.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 28, 2021)

The world moves very quickly---I just ordered a toolpost grinder and diamond dresser from Little Machine Shop in USA. It isn't a toolpost grinder even though that's what they call it. It mounts to the topslide.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 28, 2021)

I've just posted an add on my local buy and sell newspaper looking for a small, electric heat treat oven or ceramics oven 110volt or 220 volt. If you are in Ontario, Canada and have a used one to sell, please contact me.----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 29, 2021)

I got a call this morning from a guy about 25 miles away who said that he had just what I wanted in a heat treat oven.---I drove up to Midland, and when I got there he was all pie faced---his son had taken the heat treat furnace and was using it in his shop. Oh well, it got me out of the house for a drive anyways.


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## MikeG (Apr 29, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> The world moves very quickly---I just ordered a toolpost grinder and diamond dresser from Little Machine Shop in USA. It isn't a toolpost grinder even though that's what they call it. It mounts to the topslide.


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## MikeG (Apr 29, 2021)

Brian
I'm enjoying following your build.  I have a question, why do you need a TPG for making rings?
I've made quite a few CI rings for my engines using the Trimble method....Turn/bore/part off/heat in oven 1100 or so degrees F./ cool overnight/clean scale if needed/dimension to fit piston groove/split/check and adjust gap (.004)/install on piston.  I've never needed a TPG.  Perhaps I've missed something???  Again I enjoy your posts!!!

MikeG


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 29, 2021)

Mike--If I do make rings according to the Chaddock method, he recommends a final "clean up" pass on the o.d. of the rings mounted on a fixture to ensure that they are perfectly round. This final clean up pass is only 0.001". I don't totally trust my lathe on that fine of depth of cut. Sounds like it would be a perfect job for a toolpost grinder. (I've wanted a toolpost grinder for a few years now, but never had a good excuse to buy one.)


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## Gordon (Apr 29, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Mike--If I do make rings according to the Chaddock method, he recommends a final "clean up" pass on the o.d. of the rings mounted on a fixture to ensure that they are perfectly round. This final clean up pass is only 0.001". I don't totally trust my lathe on that fine of depth of cut. Sounds like it would be a perfect job for a toolpost grinder. (I've wanted a toolpost grinder for a few years now, but never had a good excuse to buy one.)


I have wondered on that method why just .001. Why not make it a deeper cut like.005 or even .010? It requires a super sharp tool to just cut .001.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 29, 2021)

Gordon--I wondered about that too. If you knew that you were going to take that last "truing" cut why wouldn't you make the ring  0.010" over in the first place.


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## SmithDoor (Apr 29, 2021)

Use the compound for fine feed.
Put compound at about 10 degrees 

Dave



Brian Rupnow said:


> Gordon--I wondered about that too. If you knew that you were going to take that last "truing" cut why wouldn't you make the ring  0.010" over in the first place.


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## SmithDoor (Apr 29, 2021)

You also use a dial indicator 








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




Dave


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## SmithDoor (Apr 29, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> You also use a dial indicator category 4 large dial 3 ⅝" diameter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## IC-man (Apr 30, 2021)

MikeG said:


> Brian
> I'm enjoying following your build.  I have a question, why do you need a TPG for making rings?
> I've made quite a few CI rings for my engines using the Trimble method....Turn/bore/part off/heat in oven 1100 or so degrees F./ cool overnight/clean scale if needed/dimension to fit piston groove/split/check and adjust gap (.004)/install on piston.  I've never needed a TPG.  Perhaps I've missed something???  Again I enjoy your posts!!!
> 
> MikeG


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## IC-man (Apr 30, 2021)

Hi Mike that's the method I use.
I've used this Trimble method on Westburys Sea lion, Kiwi several Nemett 15's plus a few others. To cleave the ring I just grip the ring with 2 pairs of flat nose pliers (close together) and tweek.
I 've made maybe 50 rings this way.
And by the way all the engines run.
Graham


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 30, 2021)

No luck so far in my search for a small heat treat oven. I would have thought that with the number of small manufacturers and machine shops that we have lost over the last ten years that a small heat treat oven would be easy to find at a reasonable cost, but it doesn't seem to be happening.


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## Brian Rupnow (Apr 30, 2021)

Whoops!!!---Just got a call from a town not far away and a guy has a dental crucible with an interior heat cavity about 4" x 3" x 3". The price is right and the temperature goes high enough for what I need.---now I'm excited!!


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## Gordon (Apr 30, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> No luck so far in my search for a small heat treat oven. I would have thought that with the number of small manufacturers and machine shops that we have lost over the last ten years that a small heat treat oven would be easy to find at a reasonable cost, but it doesn't seem to be happening.


An industrial heat treat oven is a different animal and much more expensive than a hobby ceramic kiln. Most of the industrial heat treat furnaces that I have seen are gas fired. With everyone staying home a lot of folks have taken up new hobbies and ceramics are probably one of the new hobbies. Also even if they have been doing ceramics the shop where you had them fired has limited access.


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## L98fiero (Apr 30, 2021)

Gordon said:


> An industrial heat treat oven is a different animal and much more expensive than a hobby ceramic kiln. Most of the industrial heat treat furnaces that I have seen are gas fired. With everyone staying home a lot of folks have taken up new hobbies and ceramics are probably one of the new hobbies. Also even if they have been doing ceramics the shop where you had them fired has limited access.


A few yeas ago I bought a heat treat oven for $175, weighed about 400 pounds, the seller loaded it on my pickup with a home built front end loader on his tractor, dropped it twice before getting it on the truck. In the end he said forget about the $175 but it still worked when a new control was installed for $50.


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## clockworkcheval (May 1, 2021)

A year ago I got a good deal on a small EFCO 150 oven with inner space of 160x85x195 mm and temperature up to 1100 degrees Celsius. More than enough for hardening small tools and parts at around 800 degrees Celsius. I have a simple SOLO controller attached which basically has two modes 1) straight heating and shut-of at set temperature. This leads to overshoot of up to 50 degrees Celsius. The second mode is a nice PID control which causes no overshoot. After using it with succes for some time I tried to use it in PID mode to max capacity of 1100 degrees. This took a long time and afterwards I thought the oven was broken because in the follow-up it did massively overshoot 820 degrees up to 950 degrees.
The seller then explained to me, what is not very clear from the manual, that the SOLO control in PID mode is self-learning. Heating up to max was only possible with continuous full force heating - and that is what the oven remembered when I tried to use it at the much lower temperature of 820 degrees, thus the overshoot. He showed me the programming how to reset it and mentioned that on its own the controller would probably need about 5 cycles to nicely again get to around 800 degrees. So I quit higher temperature experiments.


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## trlvn (May 2, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> The world moves very quickly---I just ordered a toolpost grinder and diamond dresser from Little Machine Shop in USA. It isn't a toolpost grinder even though that's what they call it. It mounts to the topslide.



Is this the one you ordered?  













						Mini Lathe Tool Post Grinder | Tool Post Grinder for Sale
					

Designed specifically for the mini lathe, this tool post grinder can be installed by replacing the compound rest on your machine. Work efficiently with the help of this tool post grinder.




					littlemachineshop.com
				




These are remarkably inexpensive!  Apparently takes an 80mm wheel (a bit over 3 inches) and runs at 6,000 RPM.  As long as it has half-decent bearings, I would think it would be pretty darn good for hobby use.

Craig


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## Brian Rupnow (May 2, 2021)

Yes, that is the one.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (May 6, 2021)

My heat treat oven shipped today out of Montreal. I bought it from a lady who was a potter and somehow ended up with two used heat treat furnaces. I will probably have to spend some money on controls for it, but the price was right at $200.00. It cost $92 to ship it from Montreal by UPS. Of course the Rupnow Paypal fund is seriously depleted, but I've sold enough engine plans to pretty well pay for a toolpost grinder from Little Machine Shop and a used heat treat furnace.  There is something so righteous about spending money from small engine plans to pay for tooling to build more small engines. I will post a picture of it when it gets here.---Brian


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## dsage (May 7, 2021)

If you find you need new controls you can get excellent PID temperature controllers from the usual places in China for about $40 or less. They work well to keep the temp withing one degree or so of the set point. I replaced the archaic control board in an oven a few years ago. The new control is about 2" square in the front panel by about 6" deep. You'll also need a solid state relay to switch the power.


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## Gordon (May 7, 2021)

I just looked at my oven and I got the Mypin TA4-RNR controller for $21.99 and the SSR-25DA relay for $4.27 back in 2018. You can just use the controller which is now on the oven. The only problem is that it is not as accurate and slow to react. Let me know if you want my notes on how I wired it. 

Gordon


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## Brian Rupnow (May 7, 2021)

My heat treat oven arrived today. Isn't that the cutest little thing you've ever seen!!! The inside measures 4" x 8 1/2" x 8". And as you can see, it works. It doesn't have any controls on it---just plug it into a 110 volt circuit  and it heats up. I'm going to want some kind of on/off switch and something that I can set a dial on for the temperature I want it to hold at. I'm not worried about gradually ramping up the temperature. I just want it to go to whatever heat I wanted and then cycle it off and on to hold that temperature. I don't need a timer on it but if that comes as part of a package I would use it. I'm doing something totally new here, so be gentle with me.  Can someone recommend what I need please. Ontario supplier works best for me, but I can shop USA if I have to.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow (May 7, 2021)

Gordon---the Mypin controller is no longer available (per google search)  The relay you mention is $32 American.


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## Gordon (May 7, 2021)

I think that you want something like this:









						Plug Play PID Temperature Controller Glass Ceramic Pottery Annealing Glaze Oven  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Plug Play PID Temperature Controller Glass Ceramic Pottery Annealing Glaze Oven at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




That is basically what I have except that it is a free standing pre wired unit. Ships from Canada.

I am sure that there are similar options.

You would have to drill a hole through the wall to insert the probe unless you can insert it in the front hole.

Gordon


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## abby (May 7, 2021)

If you are making mehanite rings the heat treatment is to "set" the ring and the temperature is not so critical that a muffle is required.
A suitable gas torch is all that is needed.
Dan.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 7, 2021)

Gordon---I've just purchased the item you showed in your previous post.---Brian


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## L98fiero (May 7, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Can someone recommend what I need please. Ontario supplier works best for me, but I can shop USA if I have to.---Brian


Thermomart is on eBay and are located in Richmond Hill, they have some pretty good controllers, that will store a few different programs that can have numerous heating/cooling steps with hold times. They will have the control that you need, and they're close. Temperature Controller Sensor Smart Home Measuring Equipment


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## Gordon (May 8, 2021)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Gordon---I've just purchased the item you showed in your previous post.---Brian


I am not too sure that taking the recommendation of someone who is wrong as often as I am is really a good idea.


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## Brian Rupnow (May 8, 2021)

I measured up all of the equipment on my garage wall, to see where I could find a place for my heat treat oven. Once I found a place on the wall where the compressor tank, stick welder and hose reel and 220 volt power outlet was, I designed an angle iron frame to support the oven. I asked my good wife if she could check Marketplace and Kijiji (local buy and sell forums) for anybody giving away bed frames. I got one free, one for $5 and one for $10.00 I spent this morning dismantling them---(I love bed frames for building this kind of thing. The steel in them is absolutely horrible to machine or drill, but it it cuts and welds just fine).  I have ordered a controller for the furnace, but I'm not 100% sure where it is going to be mounted on the furnace, so I will wait for it before I build the frame.


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## clockworkcheval (May 9, 2021)

In general I'm weary of heat and fumes in my wood-walled shop, so my grandson Jacob at 14 yrs welded me a heattreatment trolley so I can work heat in the open. For silversteel and regular toolsteels the oil hardening temperature is around 800 degrees Celsius. My EFCO150 oven is on top with next to it an oilcan on a hotplate to heat the quencing oil at 50 degrees Celsius. In practice I re-arranged it a little bit to be able to move the part very quick from oven to oil. For tempering I use a cheap portable oven that can be set at max one hour at max 220 degrees Celsius - my wife did not appreciate my suggestion to use her regular oven for this purpose. In my efforts to handle High Speed Steel I use a Nabertherm L/12/S27 oven that gets up to 1200 degrees Celsius and for tempering at 560 degrees Celsius the EFCO150. For not too big assemblies I find the ovens also quite useful for pre-heating any silver soldering jobs.


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## ajoeiam (May 9, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> In general I'm weary of heat and fumes in my wood-walled shop, so my grandson Jacob at 14 yrs welded me a heattreatment trolley so I can work heat in the open.
> snip



Kudos to your grandson.

Suggestion for him - - - - I understand his need for 'cool factor' re: wearing his hat cocked to one side.
Wearing it that way isn't really a problem - - - - until you're doing some overhead welding and you happen to get some slag that rolls off the hat and into the gap between the collar and the hat. The dancing at that point is quite a work of high art.
(Pull the blasted hat brim back - - - its what shields the neck area - - - - working garb isn't about cool - - - - - its about minimizing the pain of problems - - - - besides a decent welding burn in the back of the neck area takes a while to heal and is a real PITA!)


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## clockworkcheval (May 9, 2021)

Point well made, sir. I will advise my grandson. His hat however is not cocked - you look at his rightear protection flap which together with a fullsize neckflap and a similar leftear protection flap should provide good protection while welding underhand.


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## ajoeiam (May 9, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Point well made, sir. I will advise my grandson. His hat however is not cocked - you look at his rightear protection flap which together with a fullsize neckflap and a similar leftear protection flap should provide good protection while welding underhand.


hmmmmmm - - - looking again - - - - what I would want, if it were me welding, is something so that there are no possible openings at the back of the neck.

(The yellow material joins something from the head - - - maybe part of the denim material(??) but there is a join there  - - - I'd want that denim to overlap the yellow stuff and that yellow stuff better be cotton or a hot bit makes for some very interesting times (I've twice melted coveralls (once including a work shirt and t-shirt somewhat onto my chest) - - - - - I only wear cotton overalls since. Refuse the 'modern fire proof fabrics! I ask the person offering them that my test is for them to put them on and then for me to use a cutting torch to start a fire on the fabric - - - - - any melting and I don't care what standard its to - - - - I just don't wear, but then they never have the guts to do the test - - - - - so I don't have to wear them anyway!!!! Just don't ever want the joy of scrapping fabric, including body hair, off of my skin - - - - again(!!) - - - - twice is enough, I get the problem!!!)

I had the joy of catching a large lump of slag that rolled to where it sat wedged against my drawers welding wedged quite mercilessly into a turntable on  a gravel trailer. Couldn't even do any dancing - - - - and really not funny. No point in trying to get out of the wedge to deal with it either. The lump had cooled considerably and would have been quite 'handle-able' before I even got out so finished the welding first. Took a bloody long time to heal up too. Tend to check those kind of things since. Easy enough to laugh at the story after the fact but a 'no fun' event at the time


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## Gordon (May 9, 2021)

After my dad retired he bought a welder and did some hobby type welding. One day he came in the house and told my mother "I know why Gordon always wears cotton socks instead of these synthetic ones, when sparks land on these synthetic socks they melt right into your foot"


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## clockworkcheval (May 9, 2021)

The yellow stuff is the leather collar of the leather welding jacket. The cap is a fully wooden wintercap. But you are right, the overlap is the wrong way around. I will get Jacob (and myself) better caps with good neck protection.


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## SmithDoor (May 9, 2021)

Here good way out of old book on grinding.  

Dave


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