# Relocating head on round column mill



## Mike Ginn (Jun 27, 2020)

Does anyone have any really good method(s) of re-location the mill head when it has been moved on the round column mill.  It is quite easy to get it into the approx same position but how can that accuracy be improved.  I'm thinking of using accurate dial indicators but I haven't got a clear plan.  Any help would be appreciated.


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## stevehuckss396 (Jun 27, 2020)

There was someone years back that permanently installed a laser on the mill head. Then a line was drawn on the wall across from the mill a good distance away. When the head was raised or lowered the laser was turned on and the head swiveled so the laser was back on the line. He claimed good accuracy if done with care. I always wondered about it but if the line on the wall is far enough back I dont doubt it can work.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 27, 2020)

I put torque arm on my mill.
Very happy no more head moving when going up and down.
I loaded to download here.

Dave



Mike Ginn said:


> Does anyone have any really good method(s) of re-location the mill head when it has been moved on the round column mill.  It is quite easy to get it into the approx same position but how can that accuracy be improved.  I'm thinking of using accurate dial indicators but I haven't got a clear plan.  Any help would be appreciated.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 27, 2020)

See download


			https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/reduce-vibration-on-tube-columns-on-mills-drill-press-grinders-with-torque-arm-add-to-mill.29461/


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## goldstar31 (Jun 27, 2020)

This has been answered a long time ago. I have  a round column mill drill and I probably recalled how lasers were used whilst damaged cars were being' pulled out'. I did a City and Guilds as a 'manure' 
student.
Long before this, as a 16 year old , my line boss was the Signals Officer in RAF 617 ( The Dambusters) Squadron and they used TWO lights to align the height of the bombing runs. It's in the film!
During the War,  the Luftwaffe aligned its targets in the UK by sending out two radio beams and at. the intersection, the bombs were released. until, that is Alexandra Palace 'bent'  the beams. It was one bit of British 'cloak and dagger'  that went on some years after hostilities ended. 

I bought a couple of cheep cheep lasers. One of which is a sort of rotary table and  both have lots of ' bubbles', magnets and - as I said-- very cheap.

The other gadget or gadgets comes from Geo Thomas yet again. This time it is in his Workshop Techniques and is or are merely two bits of mild steel round and a packet of cigarette papers. The two bits of metal are halved PRECISEDLY  in a similar way that D Bits are fashion Once the Two flat faces hold a slip of paper, one is only a thou out. Great things to set up all sorts of things- not just mill drills.

Maybe someone will be interested?


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## SmithDoor (Jun 27, 2020)

Here is few photos of how fix the rotation.
It simple and accurate 

Dave


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## Mike Ginn (Jun 28, 2020)

Guys.  Thanks for your ideas.  I really liked the laser idea.  I have tried it using cheap straight line laser unit with a mag base.  I attached it to the pully cover and used a reflective tape 3m distant.  With a dial indicator it was easy to relocate to within 1/2 thou.  I made me realize that the relocation could in fact be easily achieved using only the indicator.  I found the mill head was easily adjusted the last few thou with a rubber mallet.  Since I don't need to do this often I will stay with the indicator and not consider the extensive mechanical solutions which look very elegant. Thanks again.

Happy days!


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## SmithDoor (Jun 28, 2020)

The laser uses a spot, so is only good as your eyes.
This why I use a torque arm 
It will give a very high accrues and fast 
About same as a knee type mill.

Dave



Mike Ginn said:


> Guys.  Thanks for your ideas.  I really liked the laser idea.  I have tried it using cheap straight line laser unit with a mag base.  I attached it to the pully cover and used a reflective tape 3m distant.  With a dial indicator it was easy to relocate to within 1/2 thou.  I made me realize that the relocation could in fact be easily achieved using only the indicator.  I found the mill head was easily adjusted the last few thou with a rubber mallet.  Since I don't need to do this often I will stay with the indicator and not consider the extensive mechanical solutions which look very elegant. Thanks again.
> 
> Happy days!


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## Dusty3v0 (Jun 28, 2020)

"Winky's workshop" on YouTube converted a round column drill press to square.   A great idea but impractical on a mill or or milldrill.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 28, 2020)

That lot of work for a keyway.
You can use rake as a keyway which I have done on drill press.

I am surprised he did not address belt slipping.

Dave



Dusty3v0 said:


> "Winky's workshop" on YouTube converted a round column drill press to square.   A great idea but impractical on a mill or or milldrill.


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## packrat (Jun 28, 2020)

Fix for the round column mill/drill


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## peterl95124 (Jun 28, 2020)

if you don't have far to go, put a dial-test-indicator in the drill chuck
and set it up to indicate the side of your vise, then raise the head and
lower the quill to keep the indicator on the vise, adjust the head
twist so as to keep the indicator from changing. QED.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 28, 2020)

In video it looks like he planing on use the rake as a keyway.
 The downside to a keyway is the head still moves.
You need to put a lock on the keyway too.

But will work I did to drill press I not care if table moved a little.

Dave



packrat said:


> Fix for the round column mill/drill


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## Balta (Jun 28, 2020)

Mike Ginn said:


> Does anyone have any really good method(s) of re-location the mill head when it has been moved on the round column mill.  It is quite easy to get it into the approx same position but how can that accuracy be improved.  I'm thinking of using accurate dial indicators but I haven't got a clear plan.  Any help would be appreciated.


Mark Lecuye (That lazy machinist) used the laser with a vertical line method on one of his videos. I have never done it but it occurred to me that if you put a mirror on the other end of the room and make the laser hit the same spot back on the mill head, you would double your accuracy without the trouble of setting up the line, and set up is almost trivial.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 29, 2020)

Long time ago but vehicle alignment with lasers  was 'turned' with prisms- and onto graticules.

Balta- you are actually repeating the lights on the RAF 617 ( The Dambusters) Squadron Lancaster bombers! It was copied from the stage spotlights - in this case, a London theatre.  I guess that it was the Windmill-- with all the saucy nudes.


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## awake (Jun 29, 2020)

SmithDoor said:


> The laser uses a spot, so is only good as your eyes.
> This why I use a torque arm
> It will give a very high accrues and fast
> About same as a knee type mill.
> ...



Hmm ... eyes are actually quite good at discerning very small differences. I've forgotten the numbers I've seen, and don't know if they are based on research or intuition ... but let's postulate that the human eye can reliably distinguish a difference of .25mm / 0.010" - I suspect it is much finer than that, but let's go with that. Now shine the laser on a wall that is, say, 3m / 10' away (yes, not an exact conversion - rough ball park is fine for this thought experiment). If the alignment is within .25mm at 3m, what is the error on a head that extends, say, 300mm from the round column? Maximum error would be .025mm, or around .001". That may sound like a lot, but then again, a typical Bridgeport is not considered to be capable of consistently reproducing much finer than that. And if you double the distance the laser travels, or halve the error that the eye can discern, you double the accuracy - quadruple it if you do both.


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## Cessnadriver (Jun 29, 2020)

Check the magazine Home Machinist there was an issue where a gentleman walks through the making of a device (with plans I believe)that will keep the head in alignment once moved on the round column import mills.  From what I remember reading it kept very accurate and he also converted a drill to run it up and down.  I will dig around and see if I still have that issue. Might be able to look on line as I know the magazine is still sold in book stores.


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## packrat (Jun 29, 2020)

I have a lot of the  Home Machinist magazines, I would like to read that issue, if you find what year and month it was in.
I may be able to find the issue if I spent some time looking though all the ones I have...


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## DanP (Jun 29, 2020)

Maybe I'm missing something.  Are you talking about the rotation of the head around the column?  You are not talking about "sweeping" the table, correct?


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## SmithDoor (Jun 29, 2020)

I was looking something fast to do over and over that would hold accrues of most knee mill (± 0.001). Which would do for any work I ever need to do.

After building and installing the torque arm I test the mill head going up and down using a Angle plate and a dial indecatar . 
Then lock the torque and column it was repeat less than (± 0.001). 
I was very happy with outcome. 

This solve two problems 
1) This first is very heavy cuts the head DOES NOT MOVE.
2) I could move head up and down and would hold accrues.

Dave



awake said:


> Hmm ... eyes are actually quite good at discerning very small differences. I've forgotten the numbers I've seen, and don't know if they are based on research or intuition ... but let's postulate that the human eye can reliably distinguish a difference of .25mm / 0.010" - I suspect it is much finer than that, but let's go with that. Now shine the laser on a wall that is, say, 3m / 10' away (yes, not an exact conversion - rough ball park is fine for this thought experiment). If the alignment is within .25mm at 3m, what is the error on a head that extends, say, 300mm from the round column? Maximum error would be .025mm, or around .001". That may sound like a lot, but then again, a typical Bridgeport is not considered to be capable of consistently reproducing much finer than that. And if you double the distance the laser travels, or halve the error that the eye can discern, you double the accuracy - quadruple it if you do both.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 29, 2020)

My post are for moving head up and down  for changing tooling.

I never want head move around the column that kill cutters and parts.

The sweeping table on most is simple if find a mill you just shim under column mount. The round column mills is same as Bridge Port mills the head will auto till under heavy cuts Good by cutter and part.

Dave



DanP said:


> Maybe I'm missing something.  Are you talking about the rotation of the head around the column?  You are not talking about "sweeping" the table, correct?


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## SmithDoor (Jun 29, 2020)

Sweeping the is Tram. I do not when When the call tram started. I think started hearing word in the 1990's
[What is tramming in milling?
Tramming ensures that the mill head is perpendicular to the mill table’s X and Y axis. This process ensures that cutting tools and the milling surfaces are perpendicular to the table. Proper tramming also prevents irregular patterns from forming when milling.]

The Bridge Port mill can be a pain you need cheek this part daily .

Dave



DanP said:


> Maybe I'm missing something.  Are you talking about the rotation of the head around the column?  You are not talking about "sweeping" the table, correct?


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## Balta (Jun 30, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Long time ago but vehicle alignment with lasers  was 'turned' with prisms- and onto graticules.
> 
> Balta- you are actually repeating the lights on the RAF 617 ( The Dambusters) Squadron Lancaster bombers! It was copied from the stage spotlights - in this case, a London theatre.  I guess that it was the Windmill-- with all the saucy nudes.


Bummer. I was very proud of "my idea"...


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## Cessnadriver (Jun 30, 2020)

I am still trying to find it as early on I did have the round column bench top mill.  From what I remembered in the article he removed all the pulleys from the top and made an aluminum plate that was able to attach I believe 1” to possibly 1”1/2 round bar. He also made another plate that attached at the bottom of the mill that the round bar attached too as well.  In between were 2 spherical bearings that were attached to the head and to the base, which basically kept it in alignment when you moved it up and down.  I almost attempted to do it to mine and than i thought a used Bridgeport was a better solution for accuracy and long term use.   I will keep looking, I would say it came out within the last 5 to 6 years. I would look at 2014-2017 issues.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 30, 2020)

That sounds close to I did stop the rotation.
Did see my photos in this thread???

Dave


Cessnadriver said:


> I am still trying to find it as early on I did have the round column bench top mill.  From what I remembered in the article he removed all the pulleys from the top and made an aluminum plate that was able to attach I believe 1” to possibly 1”1/2 round bar. He also made another plate that attached at the bottom of the mill that the round bar attached too as well.  In between were 2 spherical bearings that were attached to the head and to the base, which basically kept it in alignment when you moved it up and down.  I almost attempted to do it to mine and than i thought a used Bridgeport was a better solution for accuracy and long term use.   I will keep looking, I would say it came out within the last 5 to 6 years. I would look at 2014-2017 issues.


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## clifwst (Jun 30, 2020)

Cessnadriver said:


> I am still trying to find it as early on I did have the round column bench top mill.  From what I remembered in the article he removed all the pulleys from the top and made an aluminum plate that was able to attach I believe 1” to possibly 1”1/2 round bar. He also made another plate that attached at the bottom of the mill that the round bar attached too as well.  In between were 2 spherical bearings that were attached to the head and to the base, which basically kept it in alignment when you moved it up and down.  I almost attempted to do it to mine and than i thought a used Bridgeport was a better solution for accuracy and long term use.   I will keep looking, I would say it came out within the last 5 to 6 years. I would look at 2014-2017 issues.


 
Possibly this guy, his name is cuppajoe on youtube. Numerous videos about the upgrades he did to his "wrong fu" as he calls it.

His channel;









						Cuppa Joe
					

I created this channel is primarily to show things I make, fix or modify




					www.youtube.com


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## SmithDoor (Jun 30, 2020)

I found the video it is very close to the way I did back in 2005.
The bar he use is under size .
Mind is 1 1/2" hex and I use 3/4" steel plate.

Dave





__





						Bing video
					






					www.bing.com
				






Cessnadriver said:


> I am still trying to find it as early on I did have the round column bench top mill.  From what I remembered in the article he removed all the pulleys from the top and made an aluminum plate that was able to attach I believe 1” to possibly 1”1/2 round bar. He also made another plate that attached at the bottom of the mill that the round bar attached too as well.  In between were 2 spherical bearings that were attached to the head and to the base, which basically kept it in alignment when you moved it up and down.  I almost attempted to do it to mine and than i thought a used Bridgeport was a better solution for accuracy and long term use.   I will keep looking, I would say it came out within the last 5 to 6 years. I would look at 2014-2017 issues.


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## awake (Jun 30, 2020)

DanP said:


> Maybe I'm missing something.  Are you talking about the rotation of the head around the column?  You are not talking about "sweeping" the table, correct?



Correct. On a typical round-column mill-drill, you gain Z-distance by moving the head up or down - but since it is moving on the round column, by default there is no way to keep it from rotating to a different point - thus making it impossible to resume milling without going back and finding edges again. The laser-shining-on-a-vertical-line on the wall is one method that many have used to be able to reposition to the same angular setting when moving the head. Of course, there is a hidden assumption here - one has to be able to ensure that the column and the line on the wall where the laser shines are in fact in alignment.



SmithDoor said:


> I was looking something fast to do over and over that would hold accrues of most knee mill (± 0.001). Which would do for any work I ever need to do.
> 
> After building and installing the torque arm I test the mill head going up and down using a Angle plate and a dial indecatar .
> Then lock the torque and column it was repeat less than (± 0.001).
> ...



Dave, it sounds like it works well - I wasn't meaning to disparage your approach, only to say that the laser approach is not without merit of its own. I am sure both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and both depend on the underlying accuracy that is put into the effort.

FWIW, when I used my round-column mill-drill regularly, I mostly was able to plan ahead to avoid having to move the head; when that was not possible, I just re-located the edges. Consquently it was never worth the effort to take either approach. And now that I have a Bridgeport, the old round-column mill-drill has been sitting idle, used only as a poor substitute for a shelf.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 30, 2020)

I like Bridge Port Mills and if had space I would have one.

Now I sell the old round mill
The laser approach may be ok till head turns

Dave



awake said:


> Correct. On a typical round-column mill-drill, you gain Z-distance by moving the head up or down - but since it is moving on the round column, by default there is no way to keep it from rotating to a different point - thus making it impossible to resume milling without going back and finding edges again. The laser-shining-on-a-vertical-line on the wall is one method that many have used to be able to reposition to the same angular setting when moving the head. Of course, there is a hidden assumption here - one has to be able to ensure that the column and the line on the wall where the laser shines are in fact in alignment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RonW (Jul 1, 2020)

Cessnadriver said:


> I am still trying to find it as early on I did have the round column bench top mill.  From what I remembered in the article he removed all the pulleys from the top and made an aluminum plate that was able to attach I believe 1” to possibly 1”1/2 round bar. He also made another plate that attached at the bottom of the mill that the round bar attached too as well.  In between were 2 spherical bearings that were attached to the head and to the base, which basically kept it in alignment when you moved it up and down.  I almost attempted to do it to mine and than i thought a used Bridgeport was a better solution for accuracy and long term use.   I will keep looking, I would say it came out within the last 5 to 6 years. I would look at 2014-2017 issues.


Try the home shop machinist magazine of March/April 2015 page 12. I think it's the article you are looking for.by Dave Sage.
RonW


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## big o (Sep 30, 2020)

My solution to the movement is to install a pencil lazer to the head,(simple clamp),
    Install a target plate to the base. Drill a #51 hole in a marker cap, and another in the
    target plate, align lazer beam to hole in plate.


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## BaronJ (Sep 30, 2020)

Hi Guys,

A chap that I used to know had one of those round column mills, he was forever cursing it !

I visited him one day and he proudly showed me that he has solved the problem permanently.  He explained to me that he had drilled a number of dowel holes through the head casting into the column and was using a threaded head tapered dowel pin to lock the mill head solid.  He had determined that he only needed to drill three or it might have been four tapered holes in the column because the amount of quill movement was enough for him to change chucks and tools.  He did point out that his mill column was a hollow tube about 1/2" thick so no problems drilling holes in it.

It did seem to work very well for him.


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