# File work;  A few words.



## Deanofid

Hi all;

A few of the fellows who are looking in on my build project in the Work in Progress section 
said they would like to know a little more about filing. So, I'll start a thread here in the 
hope that other guys with some experience with a file will join in. It's not like it's a lost art, 
or something, but it's one of those things that takes a little learning.


First a little bit on files themselves, and other stuff.








Right after that first old metal worker invented the chisel, he probably came up with the 
file too. Once he had a file and chisel, along with a hammer, he probably became the first 
machinist. That's the story, anyway.

Above is a shot of a few different kinds of files and a couple other things.










Something that is handy when filing is a piece of chalk. Some people like a certain type. 
The type that is kind of soft seems to work best for me. The hard chalkboard kind seems 
to make a lot more dust and falls out of the file faster.

The chalk is used to "chalk" the file. By filling all the grooves of the file with chalk, 
it helps prevent pinning. Pinning is the result of the file taking a cut, and is just part 
of the process with some kinds of metal. The problem starts when the little pins 
get stuck in the teeth of the file. Then you start having problems with finish, and 
the file won't cut as well. The chalk helps to keep those pins from sticking in the file. 
The best way to deal with pinning is to prevent it. To chalk the file, run the chalk 
over the file teeth and let it fill them. If you don't mind a mess, you can keep oil on 
the file, and it will also help stop pinning. I've tried this, and it works, but the file has 
to be fairly dripping with oil. I like chalk better.










This is a file card, or file brush. It's used to clean stubborn bits from the file teeth. (If 
you chalk, you won't have to use this so often...) Some materials are simply gummy, 
and will stick in the file teeth, even with chalk. The file card will help get it out.

Some folks don't like these. A few guys have told me that they dull the file. I don't 
know how you dull something that is dead hard without something else that is dead 
hard, and I don't think the bristles on the brush are. 
I use one of these when I think it is necessary. Some guys are with me on that, some 
are again' me. You just have to decide for yourself on that. Often, if you chalk the file 
regularly, the pins will just fall out of the teeth when you tap the file on the work bench. 
Each time you tap the file, or clean it with the brush, you need to chalk it again.












Part of success with files, is using the right one for the job.

The file above is a double cut mill bastard, and it's made for heavy material removal, but
 it won't make a real smooth finish as easily. If this is the only kind of file you have, you need 
more files. You can see, if you look close, that it looks like it has a bunch of diamond 
points on it. That's from the double cuts crossing.










This is a single cut smooth flat, the same length as the file in the previous picture. It makes 
a much smoother cut, but doesn't remove material as fast.

These two files are both 8" long. The cut on a file is dependant on the length of the file. 
All of the cuts for a given length of file will match from the finest to the coarsest cut, only 
for the given length of the file. So, if you desire a full range of cuts in a set of files, get them
all in the same length.










This is a single cut mill bastard, which looks much like the previous picture, except 
smoother. It's only 6" long, but if it were 8", it would be a faster cutting file than the 
8" smooth cut in the previous pic. That's what I mean about all sizes being relative 
only to each other. The 6" file of a coarser cut can be smoother than an 8" file of a
 finer cut.










This is a taper file, and it's triangular shape is good for cleaning up corners, (in the smaller 
sizes of files), but it is also easy to screw things up because of the 120 degree angle. 











This is a ruined file, and I'm putting it here so you will know what to look for. If you're 
not into filing, then you may not realize that the reason you have a hard time getting 
a good finish is because your file is ruined. 

This damage was done, by me, in a "dumb mistake" moment. Cutting a piece of hard 
steel on the lathe, the bit suddenly dulled because I'd work hardened a spot on the 
work piece in the previous pass. Sometimes you can get a file under a hard spot and 
pull out the work hardened spot, but I didn't go at it with enough conviction and the file 
skipped over the hard spot. In a second, a good file was relegated to the scrap "hard" 
bin. 
Save your ruined files. They can be used for other tooling. There's not much in your 
shop that is harder than a file, and you can heat them and make cutters from them.










So, everyone is probably thinking, "when is he going to get done blabbering about files 
and do something".. 
Okay, when you set up something to file, first, get it in a position that will lead to a 
good result. That means start with your piece held firmly, and start with it "on the level". 
Starting with the piece level will help to keep the cut level. Put it in a position that is 
comfortable to work on. You want to position yourself in a way that you will not lean 
to one side. If you are leaning, your cut will likely be leaning too.










Filing is not sawing. Probably one of the biggest mistakes made, and often seen, is someone 
sawing away at a piece with a file. The file is made to cut in one direction, (for regular filing). 
Push the file away from you.

Chalk your file. Get in postion behind the work piece and lay the file flat on it. Rock it side 
to side to make sure you are not putting more down pressure on one side. Hold the file with 
both hands. One hand grips the flat end of the file, either by lightly pinching it between your 
fingers, or, if it is a great big ol'file, put the ball of your palm on the flat end of the file, and wrap 
your fingers around the end. The other hand goes on the HANDLE. You need handles on all 
your files. That goes double if you are using the file on the lathe! The handle not only gives you something to hold onto. It keeps the file tang from piercing your tender body if you should 
happen to run the file into a spinning lathe chuck. It also greatly increases your control of the 
file, helping you make better cuts.

Start off with a couple of light cuts, pushing away from you as in the picture above. Push 
with an even stroke, going the same speed at the end as as the beginning of the stroke. 
As you reach the end of the stroke, lift the file slightly so it just comes off the work. Then
 go back to the starting position and make another stroke, making sure to get the file _flat_ 
on the work piece again. 

After a couple of strokes, look at the work piece. By examining the cut, you can determine 
if you are holding the file flat. Is the cut the same width on both sides? If not, now is the 
time to correct the problem, before you get half way into the work and have a big mess to 
straighten out. This takes practice. There's no way of getting around that. It's a technique 
that takes a bit to figure out. If you continually get a cut that is deeper on one side than the 
other, reposition your body and try again. Just moving yourself an inch or two to the right or 
left can make the difference. 


If you sit while you are filing, like you would when working on a very small piece 
and need to get your face close to see, keep your elbows off the work bench. If 
you put one elbow down, you will probably cut a slant, as you tend to slide the 
file toward the planted elbow. Keep the elbows up.











Here's a shot of how you would grip a larger file. Instead of pinching the end between 
the fingers, make a fist around it. The file in the picture is not big enough for this grip, (for me), 
but it's the largest one I had handy. Usually you will use a fist grip on the end if you are using 
a 12-14" or longer file that has a coarse cut, like a big double cut or a rasp.

How much down pressure you use depends on the file, and how smooth you want the 
finish. If you are roughing a piece down with a double cut file, you can push down pretty hard, 
but the stroke still needs to be steady throughout. 

For finishing cuts with a fine file, less pressure is needed. As you come to your final strokes 
on a finish cut, you only need enough down pressure to keep the file from skipping over the 
cut. You want it to cut every time, no matter how light you press on it. If it doesn't cut a 
little, you can get chatter, just like with a lathe or mill. A good, (or new) file will cut with very 
little down pressure.











This shot, and the next, demonstrate draw filing. Draw filing is a method of getting very fine 
finishes with certain file cuts, and for doing work on thin edge sections, like the spokes on a 
wheel, (clock gear). If you want to file the edge of a piece of 1/16" thick metal, this is about 
the best way to do it. Filing across such an edge will sometimes make so much vibration that 
it's impossible to get a good finish, but draw filing along the edge makes it easy. To start a 
draw file stroke, put the file on the work piece sideways, at the point on the piece that is farthest 
away from you, and "draw" it toward you, as in the picture above.










Pull the file toward you, and end your stroke at an imaginary point somewhere past the point 
where the file comes off the work. All the things about regular filing apply, with regards to a 
steady stroke, even pressure, and keeping the file flat on the work piece.

Because of the need to use both hands for the demo shot, and to get my hands in the picture 
while keeping out of the way of the camera, my grip is not optimum for demonstrating this. 
Normally, I would grip the file the same with both hands, and usually more like the grip on the 
left. The main thing is to do it in a position that will let you keep the file flat, and pull it toward 
you with an even stroke. Take care not to increase the down pressure on the file as you bring
it toward you. It's what you are normally going to want to do, so concentrate on that aspect. 




The following two shots are just examples from my current engine build. 






This first shot is before filing.










And this is after a few minutes with a 6" single cut mill bastard. This is about as smooth as 
I want this piece, because I want it to maintain more of a sheen than a shine. With finer files, 
you can make things almost bright looking, and from there about all that can be done is light 
sanding.

I hope this wasn't over long for a single post. It's mainly basic information. I know by looking 
at some of the work on this forum that there are some pretty good file hands here. If you're 
one of those guys, please join in with your comments, or corrections to my explanations.

Dean


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## ttrikalin

what a wonderful post.
Karma to you Sir. 

tom


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## black85vette

Very nice post. I had never heard of using chalk. Now its off to raid my grand daughter's side walk chalk box.  :big: Some really good and useful tips.


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## rake60

Beautiful tutorial Dean! :bow:

That is the craftsmanship that has been lost over the years.
100 years ago every machined part was hand finished.
It is a dying art but not dead yet!

Great post!

Rick


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## zeeprogrammer

Fantastic Dean. Great help. Thank you very much for a great post.

A silly question...when you chalk a file...do you rub the chalk along the length of the file or across the file.

black85vette...taking chalk from a grand-daughter is like...is like...well it just shouldn't be done.


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## Deanofid

Just run it from one end of the file to the other, Zee, like if you were filing the chalk.

Dean


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## Twmaster

And this post could not be more timely. I have some hunks of 1018 CRS I need to lay some file foo onto. Thanks Dean!


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## Russel

Thank you for taking the time to create such a complete post. Files are amazing, before I got into machining, my machine tools were a hack saw and some files. 

One little tidbit that I just recently figured out: I always keep files protected from each other and from other tools. Flat files are usually easy because you can simply keep the file between a couple pieces of cardboard with rubber bands holding them, if you don't have anything better. But, with small round files, I kept them in a special secluded spot in my tool box until I figured out that I could just slip a drinking straw over them. Mind you, these are small diameter round files Chainsaw sharpening files to be specific, not that I sharpen chain saws, I just like the files. The type of straw with the flex part so that you can bend it over the edge of your glass grips on the smaller round files, and if you pull the flex part so that it is stretched out, it will work on files with slightly larger diameter. Of course, it depends on the drinking straw also, the do come in different diameters.

Anyway, that's my cents worth...

Russ


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## va4ngo

Very comprehensive post Dean.

This is very useful information for me a sI do not have a mill and finish most of my flattened items with a file.

Post will be improved even more if you can include information on filing jigs. I have seen one application in a book I have called "The Amateurs Lathe" but the information and picture were not detailed sufficiently for me to make one. Filing jigs can be used in the lathe for making flats and would be especially useful if one can index the Lathe Chuck.

Your work is much appreciated.


Phil


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## arnoldb

Dean, you pretty much covered the basics :bow:

A big part of getting a good result from filing is also one's attitude. Unfortunately, some people look down on filing as a "menial" thing to do.
With a positive approach and some practice, one can get very good and accurate results, which provide a very rewarding and satisfying feeling.

Some people have the notion that you cannot use the same files for different materials; IMHO that is hogwash. A good clean like Dean described before changing to a different material is essential though for good results. Marv has mentioned in a couple of places the use of flattened spent rifle shells for cleaning files.

I haven't had much shop time of late; I'll try and add some examples of methods & setups I use for filing over the weekend.

Regards, Arnold


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## Kermit

"...Start with your work piece held firmly."

It wasn't until I actually(accidentally) tightened down and secured an old chinese wrench enough to stop it from moving even a little bit, that I had any luck getting a fine finish with a file. The result was a surprise for me. I've gone on in moments of boredom and cleaned up a couple of others.


Thanks for the tips. I didn't know about chalk. I've been using hard rolls of cardboard and cleaning the file on the ends.  ;D

Wonderful pictures too!
Kermit


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## ozzie46

Thanks loads Dean.

 I didn't know it was so involved.



  Ron


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## Philjoe5

Dean,
A karma to you sir for this very comprehensive description of files and their proper  use. :bow: I'll reread this post from time to time for sure. Some ancient nuerons in the darkest recesses of my mind fired off - memories of my shopclass in high school 45 years ago. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## BobWarfield

Excellent post!

Two thoughts to add:

1. Oiling rather than chalking is very messy, but I find it expedient at the lathe. I keep my lathe file (there are "lathe" files that are ground to be used at the lathe) in a tube filled with cutting oil. It just stands upright in that tube near the lathe. The tube is fixed to my equivalent of peg board. It's easy to reach over and grab it. The oil and lathe are very compatible I find. If it starts to run dry, easy to dip in again.

2. Look for a file brush that has not just the wires, but an actual brush on the other side. This is a Guy Lautard recommendation. I always liked using the regular bristles first, and if that wasn't enough, then I'd break out the wire bristles.

Cheers,

BW


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## GWRdriver

I've been asked any number of times over the years What's your most often used tool? and I put my answer to them in terms of "touches", that is, during a typical workshop session what is the tool I touch most often, and the answer (always to their great surprise) is my FILES.


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## mklotz

Save your brass scraps and make file cleaners out of them.

I'm one of those people who doesn't like to use a file card on his good files - most especially the delicate needle files. Take your scrap brass and rub it on the file parallel to the planes of the teeth. The brass will quickly wear to become a perfectly matching fit to the file teeth depth and spacing and thus will act to push out any bits caught in the tooth gullets.

I want to re-emphasize Dean's advice to hold your workpiece securely while filing. If both the work and the file can move, all that results is an aimless dance that removes little material from all the wrong location. Strapping down tiny parts to file them can often require some considerable ingenuity, but it is essential. Just because you can hold small parts to file doesn't mean that it's a good idea.

Dean hasn't yet said anything about safe edges so I will. Most files have teeth on both surfaces of the blade. Many files have teeth on the edges of the blade - in effect creating a very narrow file whose width is the thickness of the blade. Sometimes those edge teeth can be useful but, in many cases, they interfere with getting a job done. If you want to use the edge of the file as a guide while cutting, the presence of those teeth means you'll be chewing up whatever surface you use as a guide. 

Some files are sold with what is referred to as "safe" edges. The teeth on one (or more) of the edges have been ground away to leave a smooth surface that won't cut if you use it as a guide while cutting. 

As you do more filing, you'll begin to see the advantages of safe edges. If you don't have the right safe-edge file in your collection, it's simple to manufacture what you need. Simply grind away the teeth on whatever edge needs to be safe.

Files are precision edged tools and need to be treated kindly and stored carefully. Hopefully Dean will talk about that subject in future contributions to this thread.


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## bearcar1

What you are conveying is very true Mike. I can distinctly remember the machine shop instructor in college taking a brand new file over to the grinder and removing the edge teeth, all the while sort of grimacing and looking for forgiveness ll at the same time. It broke his heart to have to do that to a perfectly good file but as he stated, most of the time you are not going to need the edges anyway. To this day, whenever I get a file that is edge cutting, I do the same ritual. It makes getting right up to the corners a whole lot easier.

BC1
Jim


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## black85vette

Dang. If you hang out here long enough you will certainly learn a bunch!! Now I know about chalk and brass. Have plenty of scrap bits of brass around. I will give this a try. Thanks.


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## mklotz

> What you are conveying is very true Mike



Thanks a lot, John.


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## AlasdairM

Dean - just to repeat what has already been said - thanks very much for the time and effort (and pictures!) that you put into this - very useful indeed for a beginner like me :bow: :bow: :bow: Regards, A


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## Maryak

Dean,

An excellent tutorial on filing - TVM. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Marvs comments about safe edges add a little more to this dying art.

My 2 bob's worth is how I was taught to hold large thin flat surfaces which wont hold in a vice without bending or the file can't access the work because of the vice jaws.

Take a block of wood say a minimum of 1/2" bigger all round than the surface to be filed. Place the workpiece in the centre of the block of wood and lock it in place using small brads. When fitting the brads around the edges ensure that only the shank is touching the workpiece, the heads should remain above the workpiece. Filing to size removes the heads of the brads and the work remains securely locked to the wooden block, which is held firmly in the bench vice.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Deanofid

Everyone, thanks for the remarks on the write up. I'm happy if someone is able to get something from this. 
Really appreciate the additions made thus far, too. There are quite a few aspects to this filing thing, many of which I don't think of unless I'm actually doing it. Putting experience into words, I invariably leave things out.

I had this picture of a safe file made up last night, but somehow I erased it and it didn't get put into the original post, so here's another one. You can see the safe edge on one side of the file. No teeth there, as Marv was describing. You can file to your hearts content in a corner without being concerned about messing up the adjacent surface;







You can make your own safe file, as has been mentioned, but you can buy them too. When you buy one, you get a nice smooth safe edge. You can indeed grind a good safe edge, if you're good with a grinder. That's a whole 'nuther subject.

Thanks again for all of your replies!

Dean


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## Kermit

For those like me who like to read about stuff.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dl...xy_is=&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=file work&f=false


Lots of history and manufacturing how-to's along with info on various types and uses for files.



Kermit


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## tornitore45

If I may add some to an excellent post...

If you want to file a plane surface and have no shoulders in the way is convenient to file at 45 degree both way to get a cross hatch pattern.
When roughing the 90 degrees change in direction works across the previous ridges and makes the work go faster.
You see better where you are cutting due to the cross hatch marks contrast.
It is a bit easier to reduce the crown (high in the center) that is so easy to develop unless you are really attentive and skilled.

To finish you can use a triangle file, the taper has a convex shape and lets you control the metal removal in the center of the surface without touching the edges.


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## lazylathe

Awesome Info Dean!!!

Now i know why my file does not work so well anymore... :big:
Off to the stores this weekend to replenish supplies and apparently some chalk too!

Thanks for the most useful info!
I cannot remember the last time i used a file, but i believe it was way back in school in woodwork class... ;D


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## CrewCab

First class thread Dean, thank you, I've certainly learnt a lot ........... I did know about the chalk, and have used it for years : ............ but the tips you have shown are just priceless 8)

respect  CC


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## Tin Falcon

Wow lots of info here. I scanned the posts, impressive. I will add a couple of comments . Hopefully not repeating. I am pretty comfortable with a file . When I was in aircraft sheet metal the file was pretty much the tool of choice and the only tool allowed for most of the work. Shears were used for general shaping then files and silicon carbide paper. all edges had to be finished scratch free to 600 grit. But files did most of the work. 
Even in the world of cnc there is still a need at times for hand finishing. One of my former careers was what most folks here would call pattern maker. This for for 40ft +- Motor yachts . All parts of a new model yacht had to have a pattern to make a mold. When I first started a the job all work was done by hand. things were built from scratch then hand finished. 6 years later the bulk of the work was a quick throw together sprayed with foam then shaped by CNC. But the final shape was still hand done. 
I guess the point I am making here is the hand and the eye are the most used and valuable tools. Also do not underestimate the value of files and sandpaper. 
Tin


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## Captain Jerry

Dean

Thanks for the tutorial and for making filing seem much more respectable. I have felt at times that resorting to the file was an admission of poor machining but I do it a lot. The tip on using chalk to fill the file rings a bell from deep in my memory but I have never used it. I will now.

I've seen file cards or brushes in the catalogs but I just use one of those cheap brass toothbrush shaped things with good results, particularly with aluminum which seems to gum up the file on every stroke. AHA! I should use chalk!

Another technique that I have found usefull, particularly with small pieces is to put the file in the vise (with soft jaws) and grip the part with a small machinist clamp that lets me control the part as I draw it over the file. If the part is aluminum, I sometimes put a few drops of turpentine (Pine Spirits?) on the file.

Here is a picture of using a file in the vise as a preliminary step in lapping the valve for my Spider Engine. The valve cover is aluminum 1.75" diameter with 1.5" bore turned on the lathe. Two brass pieces, the eccentric and the slide ring rotate in the bore and all three pieces must be dead even so that they make a good seat on the face of the Head plate. I put the brass pieces in the valve cover and usse a short piece of brass rod through the bore of all three pieces to help control the assembly as I draw it over the file. The aluminum valve cover is wider than the file but I rotate it a few degrees on each stroke and take very light cuts until I get bright faces on all three parts. I then flip the brass pieces over in the cover and take a few more strokes, again until I get shiney faces.

Final lapping is done with the valve cover and all components screwed together with the head plate. The eccentric is fixed on the drive shaft so that it can be turned in the bore. I mix a little turpentine and Brasso and put some in the valve cavity and turn the shaft in the lathe while holding the plate still as I screw the cover down tightly to the head plate. After a minute or so, I take it apart and wash good with soap and water and its good to go.

Jerry


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## websterz

I use a small chip brush for cleaning my files. The end of the hardwood handle does a great job of confirming to the teeth on the file and pushing out chips. I cut the bristles down to about 1/4" and brush the file down after I am done with the other end. Always works for me!


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## Twmaster

So where do I find this hard chalk?


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## websterz

Twmaster  said:
			
		

> So where do I find this hard chalk?



Kids sidewalk chalk works well.


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## reggie98

Try soapstone, sometimes called Welders chalk.


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## shred

websterz  said:
			
		

> Kids sidewalk chalk works well.


Sidewalk chalk is pretty easy to find at discount-art and toy stores around here. Sometimes in the toy aisle of the supermarket


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## Deanofid

I use sidewalk chalk too, Mike. The kind used for blackboards will also work, but it makes more dust and doesn't seem to stay in the file teeth as well, for me. 
The sidewalk chalk comes in big fat sticks that will fill a file in just one or two strokes. Comes in colors, too!

Dean


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## Russel

I have never tried using chalk. Now I'm going to have to try it just to see how it works.

Usually, I grab a brass toothbrush (at least that is what it looks like) whenever I grab a file. I file a little, then set the corner of the file tip on some wood and brush the file clean. Sometimes that means every few strokes, sometimes a dozen strokes, depending on the material I'm filing and how fast it loads up the file.

Russ


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## klank

What an excellent thread - so much good info. - especially for those of us who are less experienced.

I have never had much success in using a file card/brush in removing debris from file teeth - but always had a good result using a scrap piece of brass sheet (like a "comb") as Marvin said back on one of the earlier pages of this thread - well worth trying.

A dumb question maybe - but in several articles published in mags. on filing, it always seems to be recommended that files must be separated into those used on brass etc. and those used on steel. Do not use a brass-file on steel and vice-versa.

Does anyone have an opinion on this - whether this is good practice - is it worth building up two sets of files for ferrous/non-ferrous work?

Peter


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## Kermit

standard practice would be to 'retire' a file used on cast iron and alloy steel to working on softer steels, then brasses and aluminums, finally moving it to lead solder working

Excepting that the cleaning requirements are greater - there is really nothing to prevent the use of one file on both metals except widely held opinions


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## joeby

Peter,

 I am of the opinion that having files separated for brass, steel, etc. is unnecessary. However, files used on hard or abrasive materials should be kept just for those materials and nothing else.

 Cast iron is rather hard on files, stainless steel, tool steels, and pre-hardened can be as well. The files used on these materials wear, and although they can still be used for softer materials, they won't cut as well as they should. Files used on harder materials can also have chipped teeth, which only adds to the problems with cleaning, as pins aren't as easily removed, but are easily formed.

 CRS, HRS (with scale removed), low carbon steel, etc, shouldn't cause any problems with a good file that is kept clean and used properly. As mentioned, dragging a file backward over your work will dull it.

 I don't recall seeing a mention of handles. File handles are a must-have, and though I have to admit that I will occasionally use a handle-less file, it is not good practice to do so. Your control over the file is much better with a proper grip, and a file tang can be hazardous to your health, especially when filing lathe work. The "proper" way to file lathe work is left-handed with the handle held in the left hand (obviously) to keep from reaching over the chuck. I have never done it this way, finding it too awkward, and in 25 years of working in machine shops I have seen possibly two people filing left-handed. Either way, when you are filing your lathe work next time, take a look at where the tang of that file is pointing and imagine where it will end up if the chuck or the work drives it back at you. 

Kevin


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## ttrikalin

joeby  said:
			
		

> I don't recall seeing a mention of handles. File handles are a must-have, and though I have to admit that I will occasionally use a handle-less file, it is not good practice to do so.



And less of a chance that the file end will be driven in your hand while working on the lathe...


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## d-m

Hi all
Nicely done thread Dean, I have picked up a few tips here. When filing on a lathe even with a file handle I find myself staying to the left of the file as much as possable.I am vary careful of the chuck when reaching over it and check things often to see were I am at. Here is a link to an article a friend sent me I thought may be intresting to some on sharping files I have never tried it.
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=157695&submit_thread=1

Thanks for a good post 
Dave


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## GrahamC

Well done Dean.

I just wanted to add that like every type of tool, get the best you can find and afford, they are life long investments and will last if properly maintained.

I use chalk (kids sidewalk chalk) on my files. I have two small files I keep on the lathe for the purpose of breaking edges and simple deburring and they generally have some cutting oil on them but I don't go out of my way in that respect.

There has been mention of filing buttons and filing rests but no pictures. Filing buttons are very handy for filing round corners on things and are nothing more than rounds with a hole in the middle that are bolted into a hole near the corner and used to guide the file. Filing rests are frequently used on lathes and you will find lots of reference and pictures of such devices in use on small jewellers size lathe (but also on larger ones too). A quick Google search will bring lots of results for filing rests. It amazes me the ingenuity of those who work with their hands and the excellent results that can be had with the simplest of tools.

I use files a lot. I don't have a mill and even if I did I would probably grab for a file to do a simple job in 10 minutes than spend 30 setting up the mill. Draw filing is something I do almost every day - cross filing to rough into shape, draw filing to level, smooth and prepare to finish. Sometimes the finish left from draw filing is sufficient.

I have attached a couple of photos that show some work done to a cheap import surface gage. The gage was usable in it's purchased form but was rather rough. I am in the process of cleaning it up. First job today was to clean up the adjustment/mounting arm. It looks like this piece is made of cast iron or flame cut low carbon steel and very roughly finished. looks like it was deburred on an off hand grinder.

First photo shows one side after a very quick draw filing to level it out and start the smoothing process. The remaining large void was the largest and deepest of the surface irregularities. This particular side was about 60% covered in similar large rough voids.

Second photo shows the same side after a rough finish draw filing and the third photo shows the same side after a quick lapping on 400 grit wet or dry and oil.


Total time: about 15 minutes


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## Deanofid

Kevin, (joeby), I had a section on handles in the original post, but there's a lot of text there, so it may have been over looked, and is worth your reminder, (and repeating again);

"The other hand goes on the HANDLE. You need handles on all
your files. That goes double if you are using the file on the lathe! The handle not only gives you something to hold onto. It keeps the file tang from piercing your tender body if you should happen to run the file into a spinning lathe chuck. It also greatly increases your control of the file, helping you make better cuts."

Graham, that piece cleaned up nicely, and is a good example of finish work with a file. Thanks for including the pictures.

Thanks again for the response to this, everyone. Great to see all the added info!

Dean


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## joeby

Dean,

 Yep, went back and reread your post, sure enough it's there.

 Great post BTW. 

Kevin


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## Tin Falcon

Ok guys does anyone here have there files sharpened ? No I am not kidding there is a place near LA Southern California USA that sharpens files.
 Several years ago I was at a black smith seminar near me . They had a professional blade smith/ knife maker doing a demo. He had his shop flooded and he sent his file collection out to be refurbished. IIRC the price was quite reasonable. 
Anyway the place is http://www.boggstool.com/index.htm they will do two files or burrs free for new customers and promise a 75% savings ore more over new tooling resharpening services include
 hand files   drill bits  counterbores  rasps  spot facers  burrs  countersinks  key cutters  reamers  milling cutters  end mills  roughing mills  taps  shellmills
they will also resurface diamond tools and will diamond coat customers blanks. there are no prices for most stuff on there site but you can e -mail or call for a price quote. I will post this info in the link section as well. 
Tin


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## Deanofid

I've never had any of mine sharpened, Tin. A farrier friend said he sent his out, but I never thought much about it, really. 

The files I use are mostly Nicholson or Simonds, and they are, as far as I know, good quality, although they are not any kind of specialty make, like Grobet. Most 8" files in the cuts I use by Nicholson or Siimonds are about $10 without a handle. 

I'd be kind of surprised if they could sharpen them, or my Atrax end mills for the cost of new. I think I'll write and find out. It would be worth while if a guy had a number of them to do, and could fit them into a USPO flat rate box.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Dean


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## lathe nut

Dean, love the write up, I use files and have a lot of them and proud to say handles on all of them, I pick them up at yard sales and flea markets, looks like most people don't think that they are needed or to much work to use, truth don't know how to use them, my first encounter with a file when I was a young one on a Rice farm, learn to file a shovel or work like a dog in the dirt, no handles back then and it would slip in my hand and cut finger, got better at that.
   I visited with an old machinist a few weeks ago, he was 90 years old said that he went to a machinist school in New Orleans he thinks it was in the late 20's, he said that they gave them a hunk of metal, hammer, chisel, files, Mike, told them when the metal hunk was a two inch square to come back, he said a lot of them washed out, he was in WW2 a machinist on a sub tender, he thinks that the still has the block of metal, going to go back in visit with him, he often talked about filing how much he love it.
   Thanks again, Lathe Nut


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## rog/tn

In addition to chalk, I keep a piece of 1/2"brass rod with my files.
I use the brass to clean out the stuff that the file card won't remove.
This works particularly well for aluminum stuck in the file.
Learned this trick when I had to share files with a bunch of kids in shop class.
Great tutorial and pictures. :bow:
rog


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## dsquire

Hi All

Something else that works when chalk and brass fail to do the job on those stubborn little bit of swarf that don't want to let go is a sharp pointed awl. It may be slow but it gets the bits that want to hang on.

Cheers

Don


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## twright

Great thread! To turn it upside down a bit... I've taken an old file and tacked it to the leg of my welding table, when I need to sharpen my soapstone I give it a couple strokes on the file. 

I prefer to hang my files near my table since I do use them a lot, but have yet to see a satisfactory holder for this. I used to use a wooden one I built but it got lost in the shuffle years ago. I switched to one of these plastic multi hole tool holders from Home Depot but it is sagging under the weight. Anyone want to show how they hang tools such as files?

I don't mean to hijack a thread so if a new topic line is warranted let me know.

Thanks, great site!
Tony


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## Deanofid

Thanks for the added suggestions, folks! 

Tony, I think your post is right on topic. Storing your files in some way that they won't damage each other is a good point. 

Dean


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## cobra428

My Dad (a tool and die maker) since he locked up his tools at night after work he made sheits for them out of multiple wraps of brown paper bag. This way he could put them in the tool box. Me, I just pounded 2-1/2" finishing nails into the wall next to my lathe and hang them from there. Always handy to use.

Tony


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## Alan J. Richer

WHile putting away a set of wrenches i bought a few years ago i realized I was left with the "holder" that the wrenches came in.

Think a triangular piece of plastic with individual "hooks" that the wrenches would normally clip into - 12 slots long.

Mounted it to the pegboard above my bench, and it's a perfect holder for files - little ones on top (can share a slot so a pair is possible for triangular/round) and the larger ones below. Alternate the handles for clearance and it gets a lot of tooling in a very little space - and still easy to access.


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## phlegmatic

As a gunsmith files are my most used tool. Few thigs I can add to this topic is (from my own experience): Files can be bent by heat to any desired need; and ground to fit any space; I dont like chalk, if I need it the file is bad, only files with bent teeth need it usually. Be careful when breaking in a file, its most vunarebe then to bend the teeth. Files used to be resharpend by rusteing them and the carding off the rust, never tried it but read it often in old manuals.

Files built the first lathe...


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## phlegmatic

On emore thing, Bacho sells THE best files ever imho! Can be called Sandvik in some places....perhaps?

And make sure teh bench is sturdy with the biggest vise u can get! Vibrations in the setup will make a difference! A concrete floor with a heavy wall mounted bench is what we strive for!


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## Powder keg

I tell people that files are a "Machine shop on a stick". Gets em laughing)


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## vlmarshall

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> I tell people that files are a "Machine shop on a stick".


Gonna have to remember that one. ;D


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## rickharris

When I joined the RAF as an electronics engineer in 1966 the first session of workshop training was a brass block, a drawing and the instruction to mark out and file to size a cube.

The instructor had a go no-go gauge in his draw and the first few "fast workers" got their unsatisfactory efforts binned and a new block issued.

The rest of us took a bit more care when we saw this - Fortunately my engineer father had taught me to mark out and file. A valuable lesson though.


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## Mutley

I may have missed it in this thread, but "Phlegmatic" said that a file needs breaking in and being as i have just taken delivery of a couple of brand new bacho files, is this true and is their a procedure for it????


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## phlegmatic

Mutley  said:
			
		

> I may have missed it in this thread, but "Phlegmatic" said that a file needs breaking in and being as i have just taken delivery of a couple of brand new bacho files, is this true and is their a procedure for it????



This is a observation Ive made myself. What I mean is that ive noticed that files cut smother after a while, give better finish. Breaking in is just using it carefully and not harming the teeth; that ive noticed are more sensitive when new.


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## Maryak

Mutley  said:
			
		

> I may have missed it in this thread, but "Phlegmatic" said that a file needs breaking in and being as i have just taken delivery of a couple of brand new bacho files, is this true and is their a procedure for it????



Mutley,

IMHO it's true and my procedure is to use the file(s) on brass or bronze, (not copper or aluminium as they gall too easily), before using them on steel or cast iron. Say 10 mins actual filing per file trying to use all of the length and each of the sides.

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob

Edit: Using each of the sides is difficult with a round file but ..................... :


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## Mutley

Thanks for that, i will try that.
I have started with the EZ engine, not much filing on that, but good to know.


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## Deanofid

phlematic may not like using chalk, but it's a "to each his own" thing. It's a well known method to minimize pinning, and a practice used by a number of old heads, (machinists), that I know. Pinning can damage a file, and preventing it is the best cure. 
Another, and probably the most common way of dulling a file is cutting on the back stroke. The edges on a single cut file are much like those of a reamer, in that they are strong in only one direction of travel. 

"Machine shop on a stick". That's a good one, Keg. That was probably one of the tools in the first machine shop, along with a cold chisel and a hammer. Man, we have it good!

Dean


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## starnovice

This is a great thread.  I am resurrecting it because we may have new members since 2009 that have not seen it.

I had to do filing in shop class in high school but I really learned how to file when I was building my Gingery machines (more motivated probably).  My technique for learning was to take a piece of metal cover one end and the sides with Dykem.  Then I would scribe a line all around the piece and try to file down to all four lines evenly.  The die on the end (replenished by a marking pen) let me know if I was filing the surface where I wanted to file.

Hope this helps someone.

Pat


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## rodw

starnovice said:


> This is a great thread.  I am resurrecting it because we may have new members since 2009 that have not seen it.
> 
> Hope this helps someone.
> 
> Pat



Pat, thanks for bring it to the top for a new members. Very useful.


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## WCPenney

Long time reader, but I THINK this is my first post. That said, Tin, I'll scold myself and head over to the introduction sub...

Dean, great post! I really don't think this thread will be complete until you post a picture and explanation of your roller filing rest...

Most of the files I have came from anywhere but a store and were loaded with various material. A strong caustic (draino, sodium hydroxide, washing soda) will eat the aluminum out of an otherwise useless file.


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## Lew Hartswick

Resurrecting a thread form 3 or 4 years back and with 7 pages long will not do for a 
lot of beginners much good I'm afraid.  I don't know the answer but have the major
problem trying to make the students in metal shop understand that a file in NOT like
a  piece of sandpaper and should only touch the work on the forward stroke. 
 ( What do you think it would do to a saw blade if it were to be run backward?)

   ...lew...


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