# Saw stop debate.



## Tin Falcon (Dec 29, 2011)

This is a bit OT as it is not strictly metal working or model making. But Many of us have a table saw in our shops. that are used for wood and in some cases aluminum. I was listening to National Public Radio on the way to work this AM. apparently the national consumer product safety commission has unanimously voted to change upgrade the safety rules for table saws. Proponents of new laws are pushing for saw stop technology to be installed on all new saws this will increase the price of table saws by apppox. $100 . the power tool manufacturers do not want anything to do with it. 
I looked at the saw stop web site they only sell saws the cheapest is $1600 way too much for a casual hobbyist. no retrofit kit for craftsman etc. seems like if the guy really wanted to save fingers he would sell kits for saws that are in the field and at an affordable price. $ 100 is cheap insurance to keep your fingers. I know think safe work safe etc. so far my fingers are in place but I have seen those who have lost parts. 
anyway be safe.
Tin


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## Jeremy_BP (Dec 29, 2011)

This strikes me as wrong for a number of reasons.
There are a lot of good companies out there that make fantastic saws. Some of these aren't exactly sawstop compatible. I did a lot of work on a Holz-Her sliding table saw. Loved that thing, but there's no way in hell it would work with a saw stop.
My school was forced into getting a sawstop (which meant they were also forced to decommission the WWII oliver table saw). It's just not a very high quality saw. Strikes me as awfully flimsy. Not to mention that ever since the wood shop students found out about the blade-stopping cartridge, we've been burning through blades and cartridges. This makes me draw three conclusions: at least for my school, it's not cost effective, especially since we've never had a table saw injury; I miss the old saw; and my peers are idiots.
A closing thought: sawstop holds patents on their products. If sawstop technology is made a requirement, who can make it but sawstop?


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 29, 2011)

I can see where students would abuse them and treat them as a novelty toy a bad thing as the breaks ar $70 each and a blade I am guessing is $40. 
Well saw stop will either make it or charge royalties to other manufacturers. 



> and my peers are idiots.


 That can be said about many sectors of the general population. All safety devices should be used as a last resort backup and not replace good judgement and common sense.
Tin


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## Ed T (Dec 29, 2011)

Time to start hoarding old table saws since the new ones will be pricey especially at the low end of the market. BTW, the nannies will probably not require "saw stop" technology, just something that does the same thing. For example, a toothless blade that doesn't spin. Wait, that might actually be cheaper.


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## dalem9 (Dec 29, 2011)

I have always wondered what would happen if you were cutting damp wood . Any one know . Thanks Dale


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## Jeremy_BP (Dec 29, 2011)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> All safety devices should be used as a last resort backup and not replace good judgement and common sense.
> Tin



I couldn't agree more.



			
				dalem9  said:
			
		

> I have always wondered what would happen if you were cutting damp wood . Any one know . Thanks Dale


According to SawStop FAQ, lightly damp wood is OK. Past that, you need to put the saw in bypass mode so you don't trigger it.
I wonder how long it will be until someone sues because they cut themselves while safety was bypassed...


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## rake60 (Dec 29, 2011)

How does the age old proverb go?

Something like:
_*Make it idiot proof and they will create a better idiot.*_

I am extremely safety conscious, but hate built in safety features.
They usually inhibit the operation of a machine.

Worse than that, they give the operator of that machine a false sense of security.
I can't get hurt running this because the machine won't let that happen.

Machines are machines. They rarely do exactly what you ask them to do.
Even the best of safety systems can fail, and they will at some point in time.

True safety can not be a legislated requirement.

Safety comes from between the ears of the person operating the machine.
99% of the people who I have talked to, who were injured in a machine accident
say the very same 5 words.
_*
"I shouldn't have done that."*_

Rick


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## steamer (Dec 30, 2011)

That product is a marvel of technology!  It's also a litigation waiting to happen!

A more profound idiot is waiting for it......and I am not giving up my saw for this @)(R* law either!


Dave


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## steamer (Dec 30, 2011)

looking at the design there is no way in hell you could retrofit this into an existing saw design. It's a complete redesign from the ground up as a "Saw Stop" saw.  The design changes are so many and so fundamental as to preclude a "retrofit".


....unless your a HMEM member.....then anything is possible :


The law isn't going to fly....even if it passes.....but I give the guy credit for putting his own hide on the line.

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 30, 2011)

Well if every saw manufacturer has to redesign re-engineer the design and retool re stock and redesign the assembly line no wonder they are against using it. that is cost in adition the the saw stop and paying royalties .
Tin


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## Jeremy_BP (Dec 30, 2011)

I could be wrong, but I believe the court case that is the lead cause fr this legislation is as follows:
Ryobi had been considering a deal with SawStop. It never happened. Some idiot purchases a Ryobi table saw from Home Depot. He cuts himself. He sues both the Home Depot and Ryobi for negligence in not outfitting the saw with the latest safety technology. I should also add that he's winning.
Better idiot indeed.


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## John S (Dec 30, 2011)

In which case I should sue Peugeot for not fitting anti-lock brakes to my 10 year old van as they were current when the van was being built.

The fact it never said they had anti-lock brakes on it and I never paid for them is of no interest.

Gotta go sue them.

John S.


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## Paulsv (Dec 30, 2011)

John Stevenson  said:
			
		

> In which case I should sue Peugeot for not fitting anti-lock brakes to my 10 year old van as they were current when the van was being built.



That is exactly the type of claim that is being made in probably the majority of product liability cases. We all pay for it in higher product costs for everything we buy. It doesn't even seem to matter if the idiot that crashes his van and sues was speeding, or drunk, or texting while driving, because that should have all been "forseeable" behavior to the manufacturer. Survival of the fittest doesn't seem to apply to humans anymore.


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## rake60 (Dec 30, 2011)

I am always reminded of the "Idiot" who tried to trim his hedges with rotary lawn mower.

He was holding the mower deck, moving it back and forth over the shrubs when it slipped
from his grasp mangling his right arm.

He sued the mower manufacturer because the operators manual did not say the machine 
should not be used to trim hedges. He won an enormous settlement.

If you ever actually read the safety pages of any machine and wonder why they they state
obvious things in the *DO NOT* sections, that is why.

Rick


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## tattoomike68 (Dec 30, 2011)

The kids high school shop has a saw stop saw and the kids like to touch the side of the blade and watch it self destruct, once they run out of the cartage's Its worthless. so then the kids dont have a table saw. he says it sucks ass. 


The first thing I do with a new machine is get rid of the safety crap that make the machine harder to use.

I guess people are stupid. We paid for a $2,000 large screen TV and the instructions said " Do not throw the remote control at the TV"


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## Ned Ludd (Dec 31, 2011)

Hi Guys,
With all these product liability court cases, why don't the victims (the company being sued) get better lawyers and defend the defend-able and not give into the chancers who think that it is their time to win the lottery.
Isn't it a shame that suing lawyers will act on a no win no fee basis, but the defence can't because there will be no chance of getting paid by the claimant if they win, so it is often cheaper to settle out of court, to the detriment of the rest of society.

I am sometimes glad that I will not be around in twenty years time to see how awful living is becoming, well, it is if you remember the good old days when people knew their place, instead of thinking the world owed them a living.
Rant over, have a Happy New year folks.
Ned


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## TroyO (Jan 16, 2012)

OK... I will be the first to say it.... who wants a saw that is so weak it won't even cut a hot dog? : :bow:

Seriously though.... all kinds of products have safety items that are basic requirements. Newly manufactured cars must have seat belts (And brake lights and...). Cribs can't have slats big enough to get your babies nugget stuck in it, or callapse on them, or.... Etc., Etc. Saws already have requirements for blade gaurds and anti-kickback devices. (And I think riving knives were recently required too.)

Why is this different? Because it's higher technology? No one is saying it has to have "Saw stop" in it, I'm sure they can deign their own equivalent. (And cheaper at that.) Upshot... it doesn't add hundreds to the cost of a saw, once it is required equipment it maybe adds $40.

I would already have one if I wasn't so cheap, LOL.

I'm also not sure that I get how "High school kids are semi-retarded and do dumb things" makes the saw stop less of a good idea.


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## Jeremy_BP (Jan 16, 2012)

High school dtudents being dumb doesn't make the saw stop a bad idea. It just means that no one has been able t use the table saw at my school for the last couple months.


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## Mosey (Jan 16, 2012)

For the fellow who takes all the "Safety Crap" off his machines, I wish you well. My dad was a professional cabinet maker and had 8-1/2 fingers.
When are we going to get "SafetyJointer"?, or "SafetyBandsaw"?


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## TroyO (Jan 17, 2012)

OT

Heh...I want a "Buffer wheel stop" that makes it stop grabbing things that are mostly shiny and throwing them back at me at high speed. (It's the one tool that has bit me hard enough to really put that "Sit down for 20 minutes and shake while you think about that one" fear in me.)

/OT


There are costs to NOT having safety equipment too.... I wonder what percentage of your health insurance bill is related to power tool injuries? Not *your* injuries, but in general? Not only the actual monetary expense.... in the end, someone was hurt and suffered... quite possibly without a good reason.

I did a quick google on it and found no clear answer, but it did lead me down a weird trail about snow blowers and amputated fingers. It took me a while to figure what dumb assed thing people do so I got sucked in trying to figure out how exactly they got injured... thrown objects? That USED to be my biggest concern.. LOL. Turns out it's hamburgered fingers.

Apparently, not all snow blowers have blades that stop when you let go of the handles. It wouldn't occur to me, never having used one that didn't, that it *wouldn't* stop the blades. I guess there is danger in that too... pretty much anytime you use unfamiliar equipment. Anyway... it was a CDC article.... 48% of the people *knew the blades were engaged when they stuck their hand in the chute to clear the snow*.

Yep.......


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## steamer (Jan 17, 2012)

Many of the old blowers had spring load primary blower wheels. When they clogged with slush and such, they would stall with the springs on the shaft well compressed....when someone put their hand in and cleared the blockage, they would let go and the primary blower wheel would spin part of a turn...but that was enough to take some fingers off.

Always have a piece of broom handle just for those occasions......

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 17, 2012)

yep had a friend hurt his hand that way . His employer was very unhappy with him even thought the injury was at home . He lost lots off work time. 
I saw a blower the other day that had an aluminum holder on the side for a piece of broom handle no reason for it not to be handy. 
Tin


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## terrywerm (Jan 20, 2012)

I firmly believe that the more "features" a machine has to ensure your safety, the more people there are that get injured or killed because they think that they are protected by the latest in safety technology. When people think that they are protected they become complacent and even reckless in their behavior around such machines. A perfect example is the HS students that purposely "try out" the 'Saw Stop' by touching the side of the blade. Let's face it, fingers should not be anywhere near that blade when it is running, period.

More proof that as mankind advances his technology, he inversely becomes more stupid as well.

Rant off.


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## mklotz (Jan 21, 2012)

terrywerm  said:
			
		

> More proof that as mankind advances his technology, he inversely becomes more stupid as well.



Hmm. Mankind getting more stupid. Nope, try as I may, I can't envision that. I'm pretty sure he's bottomed out right now. From here on it's just detail refinement and adding bling.


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## Sic Semper Tyrannis (Jan 21, 2012)

There are some interesting studies about risk taking with respect to driving and enhanced safety like air bags and ABS.

Basically they found risk taking goes up as perceived danger goes down.

I personally like a like a little danger. keeps me on my toes.


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## Dan Rowe (Apr 2, 2012)

Just heard this on the radio (NPR). 

The whirlwind system can be retrofit to any saw according to the website and it even blows away saw dust. It can be simply reset so no costly down time or replacement parts. http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

I want one for my table saw.

Dan


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## steamer (Apr 2, 2012)

Interesting solution!   
Dave


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