# Rust vs tea, Round 1



## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

Somewhere in my very, very checkered past (and I *still* refuse to discuss parts of it no matter how drunk one gets me. ;D), I heard that the tannic acid in tea was enough to combat mild rust. Since I know tannic acid is used in some rust killers, the question came up in that highly convoluted space my mind should occupy if there's enough of it in tea to work or if what I'd been told was an urban myth, old machinists' joke or whatever.

Any thoughts?

Best regards,

Kludge ... who seems to come up with the strangest questions ...


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 3, 2008)

The tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black corrosion product. Tannins are a group of water- and alcohol-soluble natural products extracted from a variety of plants. Little is known about their true structure as they are complex and variable. Industrial research in the effectiveness of tannin solutions as rust primers began in the 1950s. Since then, tannic acid (a tannin) has become a standard conservation treatment for corroded iron artifacts found on archeological sites.
http://corrosion-doctors.org/MetalCoatings/rust-converter.htm
Did you try "tannic acid vs rust" in a google search ?
Tin


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## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Did you try "tannic acid vs rust" in a google search ?



Yep, but no mention of tea. I know about the tannic acid connection but the question was more about whether or not the use of tea was adequate or if someone was pushing ... ummm ... pulling my leg. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## CrewCab (Oct 3, 2008)

In all fairness I must subscribe to the school of "I think it's an Urban Myth" ........... let's be fair if "Tea" contained a corrosive acid there would be no Builders left in the UK : 
CC


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## bentprop (Oct 3, 2008)

"I think it's an Urban Myth" 
Well,better call the "Mythbusters" team then ;D
When you mention tea and acid,I once knew an old engineer who used to put a drop of sulphuric acid in his tea.He said it"gives it a bit of bite".Can't have done him much harm,'cause he lived to a ripe old age 8)


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## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

CrewCab  said:
			
		

> In all fairness I must subscribe to the school of "I think it's an Urban Myth" ........... let's be fair if "Tea" contained a corrosive acid there would be no Builders left in the UK :



I tend to agree with the urban myth as well but I figured I'd ask anyway.

As to corrosive acid ... keep in mind that tannic acid is also used for tanning leather, hence the name. Due to constant exposure, this explains the stiff upper lip. 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 3, 2008)

Kludge--I can't speak for tea as a rust combatant, but being into hotrodding as a hobby, I belong to a couple of hotrod websites. Many people swear by the properties of molasses as a very good rust remover. It seems that it is mixed in a high concentration with tap water, and parts are left to soak in it for a few days. I have seen a few posts of before and after pictures of old auto artifacts treated with this method, and it does seem to do a rather amazing job.---Brian


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## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

bentprop  said:
			
		

> "I think it's an Urban Myth"
> Well,better call the "Mythbusters" team then ;D



They have a website so I may do that.



> When you mention tea and acid,I once knew an old engineer who used to put a drop of sulphuric acid in his tea.He said it"gives it a bit of bite".Can't have done him much harm,'cause he lived to a ripe old age 8)



I wonder how that reacted with the hydrochloric acid that's a major component of gastric acid. I also wonder how he came about that odd combination. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Many people swear by the properties of molasses as a very good rust remover. It seems that it is mixed in a high concentration with tap water, and parts are left to soak in it for a few days.



Thanks, Brian!

Hmmm ... I wonder if the sugars in the molasses combine with the oxygen in rust to create a mild etchant. There's a lot of oxygen available and plenty of hydrocarbons to combine with it, and the water would thin it and help it get in closer contact with the metal.

Okay, I have a few things I can experiment with so my next shopping tour will include some molasses.

Again, many thanks.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 3, 2008)

Kludge---I just did a quick web search on it--here is a link that describes the chemical reactions that take place.
http://www.wr6wr.com/newSite/articles/columns/wp0906/wp0906.html


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## Kludge (Oct 3, 2008)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Kludge---I just did a quick web search on it--here is a link that describes the chemical reactions that take place.



Cool, thanks! I did a search on "chelation", which is the magic used, and apparently it binds to the rust and holds it in suspension. When the mollases is all full up and can't bind to any more rust, it can just go down the drain where commercial ones may have some issues with that form of disposal. 

Since I have several things here that need attention to some degree or another, I'm going to try some experiments with a variety of commercial and home grown "rust remedies" (including tea ;D) to see what happens. 

The only thing I've used tea for before aside from drinking and compresses, is dying model ship sails. Maybe I've got a new use. Thankfully, Red Rose is cheap. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Andrewinpopayan (Oct 4, 2008)

I believe the tannin used for tanning is extracted from the english oak tree, possibly from the acorns.


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## raym 11 (Oct 4, 2008)

Possibly from a Tan Oak tree? (bark)

Ray M


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## Kludge (Oct 4, 2008)

Andrewinpopayan  said:
			
		

> I believe the tannin used for tanning is extracted from the english oak tree, possibly from the acorns.



I know a few folks back on the mainland who may be able to help with that since there are no oaks here in Hawaii that I've found. Alternatively and with luck, I'll find someone who worked one of the old cattle ranches on the Big Island who'll know what they used instead.

The mention of tanning leather (aside from the occasional commentary about the English ;D) was incidental to the main line of questioning which concerned the existance of sufficient tannic acid in tea to combat rust, but now you've got me curious what the locals did back when cattle ranching was a profit making operation. ???

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## bentprop (Oct 4, 2008)

"I wonder how that reacted with the hydrochloric acid that's a major component of gastric acid."

Kludge,now that you've reminded me,I've come to the conclusion it probably was hydrochloric rather than sulphuric.

As for rust removal,does citric acid do anything to rust?We use it to clean the lime scale out of our electric jug,and it comes up really nice 'n shiny.I know muddle engin ears also use it to "pickle" a silver soldered boiler,or anything silver soldered for that matter.At least it's a darn sight safer than any of the more agressive acids.And it's cheap!
Regards.Hans.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 4, 2008)

I believe that American Indians used a mixture of brains and wood ashes to treat the animal skins that they wore as clothing. Not sure if that qualifies as "tanning" or not.


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 4, 2008)

Brian has been several years since reading researching tanning but the wood ashes were used to remove the fur from deer hide etc and the brains were used to preserve the leather. Yes it is considered tanning. 
As a vet friend has said every animal has enough brains to tan its own hide. 
Tin


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## Kludge (Oct 4, 2008)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> As a vet friend has said every animal has enough brains to tan its own hide.



But it takes another "animal" to actually do it. Hmmm ... 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Oct 4, 2008)

Okay, so an experiment is in order. 

I went out and got some Naval Jelly, Extend (contains tannin), molasses and Coca-Cola (phosphoric acid like Naval Jelly). I already have tea so that's not a problem.

The base to the watchmaker's drill press will get the Naval Jelly. The throat plate for the Dremel will get the molasses. I have a couple jeweler's saw frames that will get the Coke. Since tannin blackens steel and requires a complete coating of rust to work (It'll actually cause unrusted steel to rust.) I'm not sure what I'll hit with the Extend and the tea but I'll find something even if I have to rust it ahead of time. 

I have a few other items for the phosphoric acid & molasses treatments since they don't blacken the surface so I'll have plenty of stuff to lay with.

And, yes, there will be before and after photos to go with it.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## wareagle (Oct 4, 2008)

Very cool. I am very curious to see the results of this little experiment.


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## steamboatmodel (Oct 5, 2008)

Andrewinpopayan  said:
			
		

> I believe the tannin used for tanning is extracted from the english oak tree, possibly from the acorns.


Wikipedia under Tanning has "Vegetable tanning uses tannin (this is where the name tanning comes from). Tannin occurs naturally in bark. The primary barks used in modern times are chestnut, oak, tanoak, hemlock, quebracho, mangrove, wattle and myrobalan."
Regards,
Gerald


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## Cedge (Oct 5, 2008)

Kludge
I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of Coca Cola, at least as used as a penetrating solution. We used it from time to time when I had my company running. 

Recently, I had a young fellow in to do some work around the house. Like many of us at his age, we didn't have what one would call dependable transportation and his proved to be less than dependable, out on the street, right in front of the house. The kid had carpentry tools, but not so much as a Crescent wrench with him. 

I loaned the kid some tools and tried to stay out of his way until I began hearing some blue sneaking into his escalating mumbles, from the garage. I wandered up to see what the major malfunction was and there he was about to bust a testicle over a seized bolt. 

I stopped him and told him to take a break while I got him a solution to his conundrum. He looked at me like I had 3 eyes as I returned and poured a can of Coca Cola all over the bolts that he had left to remove. I told him to take it easy and finish his smoke, as he began to laugh and make somewhat deriding comments about old men and lost marbles.

This old man then took the wrench from the kids hand and gently broke the offending bolt loose with minimal effort. The look on his face was totally worth having taken his previous comments in stride....(evil grin).

Having done a few jobs around Coca Cola bottling plants, I was well aware that their mechanics have used the stuff for parts degreasing, engine washing, rust removing and nut busting..... for many many years.

Steve


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## Kludge (Oct 5, 2008)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> This old man then took the wrench from the kids hand and gently broke the offending bolt loose with minimal effort. The look on his face was totally worth having taken his previous comments in stride....(evil grin).



I love it! That particular story belongs in the humor thread!



> Having done a few jobs around Coca Cola bottling plants, I was well aware that their mechanics have used the stuff for parts degreasing, engine washing, rust removing and nut busting..... for many many years.



Okay, that takes Coke out of the "maybe" stack and into the "real" stack. It also means a cross slide I have gets the Coke treatment since it suffers grease, mild rust and stuck screws. This will confuse a few people at Tamura's since they know I'm a Pepsi-person. ;D

Actually, that raises a question as to which soft drink contains the highest concentration of phosphoric acid. They're probably really close but it's not the sort of statistic one would consider as being all that important. Maybe the FDA has something on it.

Brian ... the Brer Rabbit molasses I bought says it's been "unsulphured", whatever that means. I wonder if that's going to have an effect on the results.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## baldrocker (Oct 5, 2008)

If its really light rust do you use Diet Coke?
BR


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## Kludge (Oct 5, 2008)

baldrocker  said:
			
		

> If its really light rust do you use Diet Coke?



Hmmm ... good question. It goes with another which asks if I need to use Lime Coke if it's British steel.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## ksouers (Oct 5, 2008)

Or Sprite if it's aluminum?  ;D


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## Kludge (Oct 5, 2008)

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Or Sprite if it's aluminum? ;D



And 7-Up if it's a copper alloy?

We all know there are various grades of steel based on carbon content so do we use Coke that's lost its fizz on low carbon steel and fresh new Coke on high carbon grades?

And what about zinc, tin and lead? Titanium can take care of itself since I can't afford any anyway. I suspect mercury could be a volatile subject so maybe it's best left alone. 

So many metals, so few soft drinks!

Best regards,

Kludge


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## macona (Oct 8, 2008)

> As a vet friend has said every animal has enough brains to tan its own hide.



So saying to someone "I am going to beat your brains out and tan your hide" is theoretically possible?


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## jack404 (Oct 9, 2008)

If i may add to this 

i have a big interest in ancient technologies

there is a iron pole in europe (switzerland? germany? belgium? somewhere there its 1 am here sorry) over 600 years old

it does not rust .. why??

different theories abound from ludwig ( a ancient preist/chemist) to aliens.. but the main thought is this

when it was made it was too big to be tossed in the trough or water barrels they had so they threw it in the local bog to temper it. Bogs are great for concentrated tannins in a natural form.

the area has a lot of peat ( rotted vegetable matter) and digging a hole in the ground will get ground water this water is chock full of these tannins so they cast this thing dug a hole big enough to accept it and it lay in the hole full of tannins and the heat and tannins got to work and made the outside tannerific ( if thats correct term )

as for tea i think its a bit weak but i have experimented with the native willow here cut it up put it in water and let it rot for 8 months over winter remove the pulp every few months and add more.

i'll take some pics of the results in the morning for you all, it worked ok better if the iron or steel is heated before dousing in the mix and better if left for a day and cleaned and oiled after to stop the water starting the oxidization process again. It worked better on iron than steel but 1040 was still ok and could be used at a pinch but the colour is not great.. i prefer a nice rust blue with a touch of cobalt added to the mix

cheers and goodnight

jack


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## Kludge (Oct 9, 2008)

jack404  said:
			
		

> i have a big interest in ancient technologies



That's an exceptionally interesting speciality in archeology. I tend to like things like the Baghdad Battery, _possible_ lost technologies that could have had a profound effect had they been developed. (I tend to go with the idea that it was an early attempt at electroplating which is only one of several ideas advanced for it.)



> it does not rust .. why??



Black Forest Gnomes. I thought everyone knew that! 



> Bogs are great for concentrated tannins in a natural form.



We're a bit light in bogs here but there is some freshwater swampland that has been swampland for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. The primary water source is rainwater and there's plenty of dead vegetation at the bottom - enough to cause the occasional wiff of methane to seep to the surface. I wonder if these would also be sufficiently rich in tannins to work.



> as for tea i think its a bit weak but i have experimented with the native willow here cut it up put it in water and let it rot for 8 months over winter remove the pulp every few months and add more.



You've obviously not had my tea. ;D

I'll have to see what would work here. I think I remember seeing some willow somewhere - or something very much like it. If not, then I need to dig around to see what matches with the tannin sources mentioned previously.



> i'll take some pics of the results in the morning for you all



I'd love to see how you do this bit of majique. 



> it worked ok better if the iron or steel is heated before dousing in the mix and better if left for a day and cleaned and oiled after to stop the water starting the oxidization process again.



Heated how hot? 

This is a fascinating bit of history brought to life. Thank you!

Best regards,

Kludge ... who enjoys history


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## Kermit (Dec 23, 2008)

The piece of "stuff" that separates the two halves of a pecan is pretty much pure tannin.

A few of those boiled in water would give you loads of tannic acid.


Perfect time of year to find plenty of pecans around,
Kermit


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## Kludge (Dec 23, 2008)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> The piece of "stuff" that separates the two halves of a pecan is pretty much pure tannin.



Cool. I never knew that before.



> Perfect time of year to find plenty of pecans around,



Not in Hawaii. We have Koa, Monkeypod, Banyan, Keawe, Ironwood, Bamboo, Plumeria, several flavors of Palm and a few others but no Pecan or much of anything else common to the mainland. Its actually pretty cool being surrounded by what some consider exotic wood. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## rleete (Dec 23, 2008)

Kludge  said:
			
		

> Its actually pretty cool being surrounded by what some consider exotic wood.



You might have seen it before, but I found it interesting that the shell of a coconut is pretty nice wood. Difficult to get more than a small piece of it, but it polishes up quite nicely. I once made a nice nut bowl out of a whole nut, by carefully sawing off the top. Sand and polish to suit.


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## Kludge (Dec 23, 2008)

Yep, yep, coconut shell is lovely. It, palm leaf and bamboo are among the popular materials used here for craft work. (I really should get back to Waikiki someday to see if the couple making woven palm leaf hats are still there. Mine kind of wore out. )

I spent five month homeless here (or, as I preferred to call it, "temporarily displaced") during which time I was able to scrounge some discarded coconuts (Supermarkets won't keep them past a certain time.) which I husked, cleaned out and polished to make into pieces one of the vendors at the craft fairs sold for me. 

Someday I guess I should tell more about that time but suffice it to say it was one of the more creative times in my life - out of pure necessity. It was also very instructive.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## raym 11 (Dec 24, 2008)

Sometime during one of my other lives I remember a woman rubbing a cut in half coconut on the Phillippine Mahogany floor with her foot while doing her other housework or carrying on a conversation. 
Beautifull polished floors.

Ray M


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## Kludge (Dec 24, 2008)

ElGringo  said:
			
		

> Sometime during one of my other lives I remember a woman rubbing a cut in half coconut on the Phillippine Mahogany floor with her foot while doing her other housework or carrying on a conversation. Beautifull polished floors.



Hmmm ... I still have some coconut shell pieces in storage. I wonder how they'd be on both wood and metal turnings as burnishers. It might even start a trend. 

BTW: part of my family tree wound up in the Philippines by means unknown and I've been considering going there to find out what I can.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## raym 11 (Dec 24, 2008)

KLUDGE:

I'm sure the cocunuts I speak of were muuch fresher.

If it wren't such a pain to post pic's here I would send some of the Phillippines, although probably not related to your relatives.

Luzon is a good island to start on for searching archives I think. Bless the Pacific Islands and the folks whom kept them whole.
Ray M


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## Kludge (Dec 24, 2008)

ElGringo  said:
			
		

> I'm sure the cocunuts I speak of were muuch fresher.



The ones I got were still quite good (You don't think I let the innards go to waste, do you? ) but all had a "freshness" date which was conservative at best. It's like pineapples. Properly, they should be eaten when a beautiful golden brown which they hold for a while but I recovered them in still fresh condition due to conservative dating. (And now I've had quite enough coconut & pineapple to last me the rest of my life.)

On the other hand, they weren't right off the tree - maybe a couple weeks older. 



> Luzon is a good island to start on for searching archives I think. Bless the Pacific Islands and the folks whom kept them whole.



From the information I have at present, my best bet is to base out of Baguio City rather than Manila or Quezon City since everything suggests Ilocano rather than Tagalog or Visayan. The Mormon records have helped some as has some information from people I know in the Philippines but the trail peters out just when it gets interesting. I suspect my great grandfather, a Swedish ship captain who already had two wives (one each in Sweden and Russia) and could easily have put in somewhere in the Philippines. 

So, yes, folks, I come by it honestly. There are quite a few scoundrels (and one bishop who is vastly outnumbered) in my line. Makes life more interesting that way. ;D

Anyway, coconut shell is hard and extremely durable (They can float around in the ocean for months without problems which is one way they propogate.), and takes a very high polish with some greasy elbows. (Curb stones were great for the first cut down. ) So I suspect that at least one of the pieces I have left will become a burnisher. 

Ain't it cool?

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Epicyclic (Dec 2, 2010)

I saw an entry in a horology website about using a strong saturated black tea solution to deoxidize clock and watch parts.

I guess the watchmaking community has used that for quite a number of years.


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## Stan (Dec 2, 2010)

Welcome back Kludge. I hope your health has improved to where you can be a contributor again.


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## chrispare (Dec 2, 2010)

i havent read the whole post ,,but if your trying to remove some rust just use good ol coke a cola classic works pretty good


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## lennardhme (Dec 2, 2010)

Tannic Acid - cant be all that bad, its used in wine making as well.
lennard


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## dedaddy007 (Dec 2, 2010)

Coke contains a weak phosphoric acid as does most sodas. Tannic acid I have never used but will look at it. I use EvapoRust for all my derusting projects. I restore old woodworking planes and tools. EvapoRust is a nonacid, pH neutral, eco-freindly solution that removes only iron oxide and does not touch anything else. I have even soaked wood handled tools in it and it did not bother the wood or the paint.

I use it on all my tool tops to remove and prevent rust. It works great on cast iron since it goes right down in the pores and cleans them out. Some always stays there and prevents further rust. I also use it to remove rust and corrosion from the steel parts of antique model airplane engines.

I have used it to remove rust from an assembly that defied disassembly. The screws were rusted in their holes. I submerged the thing in EvapoRust and in 24 hours I was able to remove the screws and take it apart.

It can be found in many auto parts stores. I get mine from theruststore.com which shows several examples of how it works. The military uses it to remove the rust from tank chassis that are being refurbished.

I am in no way connected with Evaporust. I just think it is a great product.


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## shred (Dec 2, 2010)

dedaddy007  said:
			
		

> I am in no way connected with Evaporust. I just think it is a great product.


Same here, it's great stuff and no muss or fuss. HF carries it.


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## Hilmar (Dec 2, 2010)

Hi Guys 
 Do You know that this post goes back to 2008
HM


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## Cedge (Dec 2, 2010)

HM...
Just goes to show how deep our memberrs will dig to mine the nuggets this place has produced. Thar's gold in them thar hills.

Speaking of Kludge...I still miss his off the wall antics. Anyone ever hear anything more from or about him? I know he was struggling with some very large demons, back when he decided to wander off. 

Steve


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## Hilmar (Dec 2, 2010)

Yes Steve I know , he had a way of writing his posts. After his last post he went in to Neverland. Have not heard from him since.
Hilmar


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## rleete (Dec 3, 2010)

I had emailed with him before he left, so after he disappeared, I used the same email addy to try to get in contact. I never received any response at all.


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## Maryak (Dec 3, 2010)

Kludge had a blog going re a society after the big bang in which the whole bloody thing was driven by steam. I haven't checked it out in a while but you may find him there if it's still active.

Best Regards
Bob


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