# Building an Oscillating Engine for my first engine



## malofix (Oct 23, 2021)

I'm using the plan i found at LittleMachineShop. Plan looked simple so i started turning the piston to the size. So after i took my supposed last cut i measured the diameter with both a caliper and a micrometer (25mm-0.01mm precision) with caliper it showed slightly(from a few 0.01 to a few 0.10mm)different each time i took measurement so i tried the micrometer,it was better. Then i checked different sections and to my surprise it was showing slightly different diameters at different sections? Am i not taking measurements correctly? Or is it caused by not locking the carriage, although when i tried to move it by hand it doesnt move?


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## kvom (Oct 24, 2021)

Different pressures with a micrometer can cause different readings unless yours has the ratchet mechanism.   

But very small variations won't matter.

It's easier to get a fit by boring the cylinder first and turning the piston to fit.


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## malofix (Oct 24, 2021)

kvom said:


> Different pressures with a micrometer can cause different readings unless yours has the ratchet mechanism.
> 
> But very small variations won't matter.
> 
> It's easier to get a fit by boring the cylinder first and turning the piston to fit.



I think i have that ratchet mechanism, gotta try. I Also noticed that work piece gets so hot when doing large cuts so it is probably better to take the last cut after it cooled down, that way i don't take wrong measurements.

Is there any other part that can cause me problems with measuring? or they can all be made to fit?

Edit: Hmm it looks like my work piece isnt still centered despite i removed close to 20mm.Checked with a TIR and indeed there was a small swing. When i check with micrometer from different angles it is showing different values even at the same section. I'm using a three-jaw chuck, is this even possible?


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## vederstein (Oct 24, 2021)

These simple oscillators are very forgiving.  That's why they're beginner engines.  If it leaks a little, it'll still run.  At this point in the hobby, strive for accuracy, but don't get discouraged by it.

Steam (at least compressed air) is far more forgiving than internal combustion.

Even though my current steam engine designs are far more complex than a simpler wobbler, I still remember the thrill I had when my first, very badly built engine ran on compressed air.

Today I just expect them to run and much of the excitement is gone.

(If I can ever get an IC engine to run for me, the thrill would probably come back).

...Ved.


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## malofix (Oct 24, 2021)

vederstein said:


> These simple oscillators are very forgiving.  That's why they're beginner engines.  If it leaks a little, it'll still run.  At this point in the hobby, strive for accuracy, but don't get discouraged by it.
> 
> Steam (at least compressed air) is far more forgiving than internal combustion.
> 
> ...


Do you know how much can i stray from tolerances till the part loses its function in such oscillating engines ?


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## vederstein (Oct 24, 2021)

I no longer have my first engine, but my cylinder was probably 0.002-0.005 under and the thing still ran.  I'll grant is leaked huge amounts of air, but hell it was my first engine.

...Ved.


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## malofix (Oct 24, 2021)

Sizes like the piston rod is not that critical i take. Like if the rod turns out to be 0.4inch instead of 0.313 it wouldnt be much of a difference since it doesnt have to fit some where ? Maybe it would add some weight.


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## ag1985 (Oct 25, 2021)

Hi malofix, I got this engine running for the first time this Saturday.   It is the first “real” machine project I ever completed.   And let me tell you it is rough, but runs.   I even accidentally drilled the the pivot screw hole all the way into the cylinder.   Re-made the cylinder and did it again.   I figured whatever, I’ll just continue on and let it rip and the engine worked.  If something didn’t work after assembly I would worry about remaking it then.


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## methuselah1 (Oct 25, 2021)

Oscillators are serious engines, and were used in full sized ships such as Brunel's SS Great Eastern. This used screws powered by "conventional" horizontal engines, but the paddlewheels were powered by oscillators. It was the largest ship ever built (1854), only surpassed in size, forty-one years later in 1899.

So oscillators are not quite "Mickey mouse"!

They're attractive for beginners in single acting form 'cos you can get them made quick, and there are only two critical aspects- piston/cylinder fit, and port positioning.

Now I looked at the design before writing, and it strikes me it is a compressed air model; as such the barrel is best done first, with the piston machined afterward to a "pop" fit. "Nominal" diameters are not critical here, it's the fit that does the work. The ports on this engine are 1/8", so it will need a major error to stop the engine from running; if you centre punch the location of the pivot on both the upright and the cylinders with dividers (set at 5/8") you can forget about the 0.402" given dimension, as the scribed arc on the standard will be exacty correct when intersected.

One further thought, though - if you bore the cylinder right through, then loctite a top-hat plug in the top afterward, it may make machining easier; i.e. you can ream right through, or nor worry about boring a square bottomed hole blind.

Enjoy!

-Andrew


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## methuselah1 (Oct 25, 2021)

On the subject of calipers vs. micrometers, the caliper is a good_ guide, _but it is the micrometer, used only _with _the ratchet, that is absolute.

Caliper readings can be aided by supporting with the right hand, whilst drawing the jaws together across the work with your left thumb and fingers. I know that there's a thumb grip on the moving jaw, but this will give rise to false readings if the jib adjustment is out in any way.

It's also important to check your mic for zero error every so often. Close it on a piece of thin card, then pull it out to make sure that the anvils are clean first.

Also, be aware that reamers, when new, often cut a trifle oversize.

-Andrew


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## malofix (Oct 25, 2021)

I completed the piston today, it roughly matches the dimensions on the plan. I'm thinking next the cylinder but i'm wondering how will i do the boring with a 3 jaw chuck, with this square piece?


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## methuselah1 (Oct 25, 2021)

You haven't said what lathe you are using... Does it have a tee slotted cross slide?


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## malofix (Oct 25, 2021)

I think not. I'm using this lathe.


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## methuselah1 (Oct 25, 2021)

Are you sure you've sent the right link? Why not secure the workpiece (your cylinder) to the cross slide with tee bolts and packing, and drill/ream from the headstock? That's what those tee slots are generally for... After securing a toolpost, that is. Horizontal boring.


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## kvom (Oct 26, 2021)

For turning rectangular stock a 4-jaw chuck is preferable.  If you are serious about machining your lathe needs one.


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## malofix (Oct 26, 2021)

methuselah1 said:


> Are you sure you've sent the right link? Why not secure the workpiece (your cylinder) to the cross slide with tee bolts and packing, and drill/ream from the headstock? That's what those tee slots are generally for... After securing a toolpost, that is. Horizontal boring.



Yes this is my lathe. How can i secure it with tee bolts? Woulnd't it be hard to center the cylider for boring?

How do i do the cavity on the flywheel? with a boring tool or with a cuttin tool?


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## ShopShoe (Oct 26, 2021)

malofix,

You asked:  "Woulnd't it be hard to center the cylider for boring?"

Compared to other approaches, probably. The location of your hole in the horizontal plane is easy , using the cross-slide hand wheel. The location in the vertical plane will have to be set by putting blocks and shims under the piece as you clamp it down.

You will need to remove your toolpost from the cross slide. Note how the toolpost bolts on. You most likely will find that there is a T-nut in one of the cross-slide slots. You will need some more T-nuts and apppropriate bolts and hardware to anchor your workpiece. T-bolts are just bolts with heads to fit your slots. You can use either T-nuts or T-bolts.

You can make T-nuts or bolts by copying what you have that anchors your toolpost. You should be able to make them with a hacksaw and files. You may also be able to buy them in the size you need.

This link from Grizzly provides an EXAMPLE of T-nuts. Those particular ones WILL NOT FIT YOUR LATHE. But, If you look in the upper left corner of that  page, you will find a key to the critical measurements you need to pay attention to when measuring or making T-nuts or T-bolt heads.:









						T-Slot Nuts, pk. of 4, 5/8" Slot, 1/2" - 13 at Grizzly.com
					

Heat treated steel T-Slot Nuts with black oxide finish feature an imperfect thread in the base of the T-nut to eliminate any danger of screwing the clamping stud through and damaging the table slot. Sold in packs of 4.<p><ul><li>A:  0.62"<li>B:  1/2"-13<li>C:  1.0"<li>D:  0.33"<li>E:  0.27"</ul>




					www.grizzly.com
				



.

--

I'm not sure what you mean by "the cavity on the flywheel." Can you illustrate the feature for us?

--ShopShoe


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## malofix (Oct 26, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> malofix,
> 
> You asked:  "Woulnd't it be hard to center the cylider for boring?"
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information. If i were to make the t-nuts is it okay to make them from aluminum?

For the flywheel question. I was asking how to do the part highlighted below.


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## methuselah1 (Oct 27, 2021)

Ideally this detail would be done using a trepanning tool- one that is made to part into the face of the work. These thing are ground like left hand grooving tools but presented as you would a boring tool; with extra clearance ground to allow them to clear the inside of the radius they are expected to cut.

This is not the average turner's favourite operation, and on a lathe like yours, the chatter may shake your fillings out! To mitigate this, turn the tool upside down, and machine *on the other side of the lathe Z  axis*.

Option 2. Make the flywheel from brass, *drill and ream the size of the boss o/d*, bore as normal, make the boss as a separate piece, undrilled, and secure it with solder. Then hold by the flywheel rim and drill/ream then tap the boss to make sure everything remains concentric.

You may be able to use the same procedure with aluminium, as per the drawing specifications, but using one of the more virulent types of loctite, like 638.

-Andrew


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## ShopShoe (Oct 27, 2021)

malofix,

For the flywheel, methuselah1 explains it above. You could try using a standard cutter to cut a shallow dish to start, then use boring tools to sharpen the corners. You will have to alternate between the three tools and gradually work up to the shape on the drawing.

You will find that the flywheel near the outside rim needs to run at a slower speed because the circumference is longer and more metal goes past the cutter in a given period of time. You will be able to run faster nearer the center. This constant juggling of speeds and feeds and cutters is, as is said above, a challenge on a small machine.

A useful alternative might be to consider modifying the design of the flywheel to make it easier to make. this is just one of the things all of us have to face from time to time.

--

When you were asking about setting up your shop, one of the things that wasn't really mentioned was the part where you might want a grinder to make toolbits to solve your own problems. In my case, thus in my own opinion, learning to grind tools is part of the skillset. I think that is also where you learn the relationship between the shape of the cutter and the job it is required to do, or vice-versa. It is also true that the cost of plain square toolbits is quite low and you can do a lot of experimenting with a bunch of them (At least in my area, your situation may be different.)

--

Yes, you could probably make T-nuts from aluminum. You would want a high-quality, high-strength aluminum, something like what is called 7075 ("aircraft aluminum") in my part of the world.

--ShopShoe


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## malofix (Oct 28, 2021)

@methuselah1 I'm reluctant to try out the first option. For the second option i didn't quite understand it can you elaborate more?

@ShopShoe i can change the spindle speed(at the same time the feed) with a potentiometer. For the grinder i'm thinking buying a cheap one, see the attachment for the model i'm thinking. I hope it is suitable for grinding tool bits. It is 150watt, has 150mm diameter grinder and 2950rpm.


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## ShopShoe (Oct 28, 2021)

malofix,

What I think methuselah1 is saying in option 2 is that you make the flywheel from more than one part and then put them together. You would use brass as it can be soldered together. For aluminum, you would secure the parts together in an assembly with loctite.

In my opinion, brass would provide more mass and better "act like a flywheel" than aluminum, which is too light. With the loctite option, you could also make the hub and inside part of the flywheel of aluminum, and make the outer rim out of brass. Many makers have done this as brass is more expensive than aluminum.

--

I might suggest that you could make a temporary flywheel with fewer features (just a "disk" with a hub, out of brass or steel) in order to move on with the project and not get stuck at this stage of the build. You could make the "real" flywheel later. You could also purchase a flywheel from various suppliers to the hobby, although that may be hard to do from your location.

--

That grinder may work for you. The main things to consider are whether the tool rests are sturdy enough and whether the wheels are perfectly round and run without vibration. You should get a wheel dressing tool to make sure the wheels are round and are also clean and dressed to grind a flat face into whatever you are grinding. You should be able to find many tutorials for toolbit grinding online. It takes practice to grind cutters, but once you learn it, you will probably enjoy being able to sharpen all kinds of things.

You should also have safety glasses or a face shield, which you should also use when using the lathe. I also recommend a bench stone for touching up your ground cutters after using the grinder: That can also be used to sharpen your knives and scissors. 

--ShopShoe


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## methuselah1 (Oct 28, 2021)

Fot surface speeds, aluminium and brass (especially) are very forgiving. You can do it on those diameters without adjusting spindle speed.


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## methuselah1 (Oct 28, 2021)

methuselah1 said:


> Fot surface speeds, aluminium and brass (especially) are very forgiving. You can do it on those diameters without adjusting spindle speed.


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## malofix (Oct 28, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> I might suggest that you could make a temporary flywheel with fewer features (just a "disk" with a hub, out of brass or steel) in order to move on with the project and not get stuck at this stage of the build. You could make the "real" flywheel later. You could also purchase a flywheel from various suppliers to the hobby, although that may be hard to do from your location.



That is ideal, i dont really wanna stuck at a part since i've already made many mistakes that put me behind, my indicators on lathe arent the "real"ones, so if i take a cut that is 1mm it actually takes 2mm. It shows me the diameter that is to be cut and this led me to over cutting, i forget this all the time somehow.

I already started piling scraps


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## Sprocket (Oct 28, 2021)

I have done that kind of section on a flywheel using regular turning cutters, one to cut left, the other to cut right. You work from near one side (center or rim)
and make facing cuts until you need to change cutters and go the other way. It's a little time consuming, but easy on the machine. Set the tool so the point is a  little ahead of the shaft so it clears at the edges.
Hope that makes sense. I'll try to find a picture.
Doug


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## malofix (Oct 29, 2021)

Sprocket said:


> I have done that kind of section on a flywheel using regular turning cutters, one to cut left, the other to cut right. You work from near one side (center or rim)
> and make facing cuts until you need to change cutters and go the other way. It's a little time consuming, but easy on the machine. Set the tool so the point is a  little ahead of the shaft so it clears at the edges.
> Hope that makes sense. I'll try to find a picture.
> Doug



Yes that makes sense to me. I'll try it out.


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## malofix (Nov 3, 2021)

Where would you start using a dead or live center? What is the minimum piece lenght and thickness i should start using one? Scrapped a thin piece while trying to cut it thinner, it bended like crazy. I think this might be the cause behind different measurements on my previous pieces.


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## Sprocket (Nov 3, 2021)

Try cutting only short areas at a time on your thin shaft. There is a good picture of this in Terry Mayhugh's thread on the Ford 300 Inline Six, Page 7. I can't figure out how to link it here. He is cutting valves from 3/8" stock to 1/8" stems. He cuts it in short segments to minimize deflection. If you are using a three jaw chuck, maybe try to avoid turning it in the chuck as you move it out to keep it concentric. It may not matter, but three jaw chucks aren't always accurate.
If the part isn't too long, you won't have too move it.
Hope that helps,
Doug


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## Steamchick (Nov 4, 2021)

Mal O'fix: I try to keep no more than "3 diameters" projecting from the chuck or a larger diameter. >4 diameters means deflection is too great. - tapers form. 
- But it does depend on material, speeds and feeds and size of cut. to come down to size on a bit of brass, I may be removing metal at 0.02" cuts, then for the last 0.02" to size, a single cut at 0.01", 0.005",0.002" and finally a couple of cuts at  0.001". And I am in "no hurry to get it wrong and waste time re-making it". These last cuts are: "measure", cut 10%, check measure, finish cut: - Repeat.
You'll get the hang of it after ruining something that took a bit if time and effort.... - Learn once, improve if wrong, then don't make the mistake again! - We've all been there and done that!
Irish Quality assurance is the best, the way they measure twice: "to be sure to be sure!"
Enjoy!
K2


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## malofix (Nov 7, 2021)

There are numbers in the plan like 6-32, 10-32, 1/4-28 threads. What does that mean? What metric size should i use instead?

And what does that mean(below picture)


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## coulsea (Nov 7, 2021)

there is a thread chart in the downloads section of this forum


			https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/attachments/thread-chart-doc.109767/
		

if you look up 10-32 it is 4.8 mm so you could use 5mm or 4mm depending on clearance around it so it does not interfere with another part.
The R0.03 max is the radius of the corner, so how much of a curve it has. I think that the part is the flywheel and that corner does not interact with any other part so it doesn't really matter what shape it is.
when converting plans to metric try not to worry about things that don't matter, for example the flywheel is 63.5mm but anywhere from 60mm to 65mm will do, but things like cylinder pivot to port distance will affect at least two other measurements on other parts.


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## Steamchick (Nov 8, 2021)

The radius in the corner is the minimum radius that you should have on the lathe tool that cuts into that corner. A bigger radius is MUCH stronger (stress concentration factor), so if you use a "sharp" pointed tool, the part of the flywheel can crack and break, but if you use something larger than specified, you never will have a breakage.
Without all the dimensions, I cannot deduce the stress concentration factor, but a "pointed" tool (the convergence of 2 ground flats) will have an SCF of maybe 10 to 100, but at 0.030" this is SCF reduced to 5.... at 0.060" this reduces further to 2.5 (Twice as strong). It is an Hyperbolic function - not linear - so don't try and "simply" extrapolate these things. Refer to a proper text book of stress concentration for a proper answer. Fatigue strength is also a non-linear function but someone may have defined such a min radius to increase the fatigue life by a factor of 2, or 5, or 10, or more?....?
Usually, these dimensions are specified only where someone has experienced real cracks and breakage! (The highest stressed zone always fails first). 
Personally, I have always used larger radius tools (1mm or more) wherever possible, as I was taught as a lad, and having tuned various things to breakage (and failure is always at the highest stressed point), often at a machined "sharp" corner. 
One example, when (professionally) designing components that were stressed "close to the limit" I experienced a part that had a radiius of 1mm (0.040") in the corner, but failed on durability test at only a couple of thousand operations (not good enough) and the solution was a min 3mm radius - when it never failed. (Stress concentration is THAT important, e.g. on stub axles of car front wheels, where on "correct" parts you'll find large radii used where needed, but can get "aftemarket parts" with sharp corners (!!!) that will fail prematurely.... - and while the material choice and control, and control of heat-treatment, are also critical, the stress raiser will still "break the best and all the rest"!
EVERY feature put on the drawing by the designer is there for a reason, so please keep asking and learning what they all do. Knowledge is a "gift of humanity" to be shared, not ignored, or denigrated (as seems to be the fashion amongst modern youth!). (There I go again, using words I can't spell, and as the spell checker didn't correct it I had to check my 1950s dictionary! Written by scholars, for all who can read to use..., and "the batteries have not run flat" on that paper book!).
Those that don't know/don't care will ignore stress concentration features at their peril, (Or someone else's peril? - !!!).
Enjoy modelling, it is usually safer in the workshop than "out there in the great wide world"!
K2


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## malofix (Nov 8, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> The radius in the corner is the minimum radius that you should have on the lathe tool that cuts into that corner. A bigger radius is MUCH stronger (stress concentration factor), so if you use a "sharp" pointed tool, the part of the flywheel can crack and break, but if you use something larger than specified, you never will have a breakage.
> Without all the dimensions, I cannot deduce the stress concentration factor, but a "pointed" tool (the convergence of 2 ground flats) will have an SCF of maybe 10 to 100, but at 0.030" this is SCF reduced to 5.... at 0.060" this reduces further to 2.5 (Twice as strong). It is an Hyperbolic function - not linear - so don't try and "simply" extrapolate these things. Refer to a proper text book of stress concentration for a proper answer. Fatigue strength is also a non-linear function but someone may have defined such a min radius to increase the fatigue life by a factor of 2, or 5, or 10, or more?....?
> Usually, these dimensions are specified only where someone has experienced real cracks and breakage! (The highest stressed zone always fails first).
> Personally, I have always used larger radius tools (1mm or more) wherever possible, as I was taught as a lad, and having tuned various things to breakage (and failure is always at the highest stressed point), often at a machined "sharp" corner.
> ...



Then radius on that corner will be formed by the cutting tool naturally i suppose. It's good to learn such design features.
I hope i'll keep asking as long as someone answers.

Thanks.


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## Steamchick (Nov 8, 2021)

Correct: Are you using a commercial tool, or home ground? Many carbide inserts (that I use) have calibrated radii for the cutting edge, but most "simple tools" are sharp cornered and you need to re-grind to the radius required (that I have done many times!).
K2


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## Mike Ginn (Nov 8, 2021)

coulsea said:


> there is a thread chart in the downloads section of this forum
> 
> 
> https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/attachments/thread-chart-doc.109767/
> ...



Thats a really useful chart.  In the UK we also have what is known as ME threads which have 60, 40 and 32 TPI in sizes up to 1/2 inch in Whit form.  Very useful for small models but missing from the chart.  I don't know if these are available in the US.  
Mike


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## malofix (Nov 8, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Correct: Are you using a commercial tool, or home ground? Many carbide inserts (that I use) have calibrated radii for the cutting edge, but most "simple tools" are sharp cornered and you need to re-grind to the radius required (that I have done many times!).
> K2



I'm using carbide insert tools. Carbide inserts don't seem to be too expensive for the sizes i'll be using. But i think i'll also use home ground tools since appearently they offer more customization. This will wait for the time being however.


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## packrat (Nov 8, 2021)

Quote "There are numbers in the plan like 6-32, 10-32, 1/4-28 threads. What does that mean? What metric size should i use instead? "
You could change to BA threads and bolts and nuts, BA size chart


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## Richard Hed (Nov 9, 2021)

packrat said:


> Quote "There are numbers in the plan like 6-32, 10-32, 1/4-28 threads. What does that mean? What metric size should i use instead? "
> You could change to BA threads and bolts and nuts, BA size chart


If you are from the US, I would not do that, that is, I would not use BA.  I bought castings from UK but short of buying all the BA threading tools from Britain, I could not use the threaded bolts and studs that came with the kit.  I switched to comparable sized nuts, bolts and studs from US.


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## malofix (Nov 9, 2021)

coulsea said:


> But things like cylinder pivot to port distance will affect at least two other measurements on other parts.



Is there a precise way to locate and mark locations to be drilled? I'm using my digital caliper to make markings on the paper firts then mark the metal using paper. Or use a metal ruler by the way of approximation.


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## ShopShoe (Nov 9, 2021)

malofix,

The traditional, "precise" way to mark up a workpiece is with a scriber. You can buy one or grind a sharp point on some other piece of hard metal. The idea is that you scratch a mark right into the metal you want to work. To help with this process, you dye the metal first with a "layout dye" (like "Dychem" here in the US, or use a "Sharpie" marker to put ink over the metal.

Obviously, the sharper and more concentrtic your scriber is the more precise your mark will be. When you are ready to cut metal, the more closely you follow the lines or points, the more precise your point will be. Many use magnifying glasses to get their cutters on target to the marks.

Backing up a step: Locating  the marks is a large part of the battle, and you do what you can to do that well. Here is where you study a drawing well to determine where to measure FROM, and in some cases you have to plan a multiple-step process to get where you want with the end result. Here is also where you might use a flat surface (a Surface Plate, or a piece of plate glass, or any known-to-be-flat surface. 

Your approach using a paper pattern introduces the chance or accumulating more error, although sometimes it might be necessary. For actual measurement, you should have multiple measuring tools and use them as necessary. The ruler (sometimes called a "scale") is useful directly, but in some cases you might use it to set a pair of dividers to a dimension that you then transfer to your part. If you're measuring over from an edge, you might use hermaphrodite calipers and use the built-in scriber. You also might be able to scratch a mark with regular calipers, but I don't like that approach as it might wear or bend the calipers. To transfer measurements, you need machinist square(s).

Here is where I ask you not to take offense. I like to encourage your efforts and boost your enthusiasm, but it seems you might be "getting the cart before the horse." It might be beneficial for you to study some of the YouTube videos available where you can see projects of all types being completed and where the things you have been asking are addressed in the course of those projects. There are also many good books out there that provide a good background. I realize that you may have some issues seeing videos or buying books from your location, but I think you might be able to get at least some of what you want.

I don't have many of the books myself, as YouTube has a lot to see for free: It has been worth some of my time to spend a few hours a week online as well as in the shop.

Some YouTubers I check, that you might find useful:

TubalCain, aka mrpete222, aka Lyle Peterson (American, not to be confused with the British Tubal Cain) He is a former High School shop Teacher who covers a lot of background and includes several model-engine-building videos.

Oxtoolco, aka Tom Lipton. He supervises a development laboratory for his day job, makes inventions and does jobs out of his professionally-equipped home workshop, and has authored some books on metal shop and hobby metal shop techniques. With a scientific background, he has made some videos about achieving ultimate precision and extreme precision in measurement.

(I'll leave the list at this point, as I'm sure others have their recommendations.)

--ShopShoe


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## malofix (Nov 9, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> Here is where I ask you not to take offense.



None taken. I appreciate all help. Altough i'm that person who likes learning on the way.


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## Steamchick (Nov 9, 2021)

It may help if you also understand the difference between "Engineering drawings" and "manufacturing drawings". I worked (as an Engineer) in a Design Office, where drawings were made by brain and pencil. The design was worked out on drawings, based on many calculations (for strength of parts, etc.). But often the design would require dimensions from somewhere to somewhere else that you could not directly measure - e.g. hole centre to an axis  of something like a big-end. But a manufacturing drawing (for the production engineers to define the factory processes) would start with the "first datum" - perhaps a precision machined surface? - From where a series of dimensions would be generated to all the significant features, or machined surfaces, or centres, ot secondary datum, etc.
Many modellers only see and use machining drawings. These are relatively easy to follow from the first datum to all the machined bits so you should find these easy to use. But Engineering drawings take "the skill" - expertise - of a Production Engineer to translate into the dimensions you will actually use to mark a part, or to use for setting a machine. E.g. This week I machined an old calibrated carburettor part to a new dimension. Not by marking and cutting, but by setting a datum on the part to the tool, setting th the feed-dial to zero, then taking cuts to the size I wanted by using the machine dials. After each progressive cut I checked the reference dimension from datum to cut edge on the part, so I could be sure the cut was what I wanted, and to be sure I was reading the machine correctly.
All this is just a part of the fun of modelling, machining, and engineering.

E.g. The datum of a base-plate may be the datum for many parts on the drawing, in engineering terms, but each part in a stack needs to be a certain size from the interface where it joins the others... A "manufacturing datum" that needs to be used for the part drawing. Hard to teach in just a "short" post, but may help you understand where we are coming from.
Advice from Shop Shoe is very good. So start there....
Enjoy,
K2


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## malofix (Nov 20, 2021)

Status update - After spending the week trying to cut the stock to the size for flywheel using a hacksaw, today i'm finished cutting .Any advices regarding cutting stocks to the size?

I started looking through the bill of materials and i came across an air fitting, what is it and where can i find them? Or do i make them?


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## Richard Hed (Nov 20, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> It may help if you also understand the difference between "Engineering drawings" and "manufacturing drawings". I worked (as an Engineer) in a Design Office, where drawings were made by brain and pencil. The design was worked out on drawings, based on many calculations (for strength of parts, etc.). But often the design would require dimensions from somewhere to somewhere else that you could not directly measure - e.g. hole centre to an axis  of something like a big-end. But a manufacturing drawing (for the production engineers to define the factory processes) would start with the "first datum" - perhaps a precision machined surface? - From where a series of dimensions would be generated to all the significant features, or machined surfaces, or centres, ot secondary datum, etc.
> Many modellers only see and use machining drawings. These are relatively easy to follow from the first datum to all the machined bits so you should find these easy to use. But Engineering drawings take "the skill" - expertise - of a Production Engineer to translate into the dimensions you will actually use to mark a part, or to use for setting a machine. E.g. This week I machined an old calibrated carburettor part to a new dimension. Not by marking and cutting, but by setting a datum on the part to the tool, setting th the feed-dial to zero, then taking cuts to the size I wanted by using the machine dials. After each progressive cut I checked the reference dimension from datum to cut edge on the part, so I could be sure the cut was what I wanted, and to be sure I was reading the machine correctly.
> All this is just a part of the fun of modelling, machining, and engineering.
> 
> ...


I realized today that I have been dimming my drawings incorrectly, that is, as a machinist.  I have been dimming the overall dim, then dimming the individual *sections*.  What I should be doing is dim the overall, then the longest and first cut, then the second longest cut and so on.  This will make it so I doesn't need the calculator to do my machining.  What a retard I have been.  Someon pleez kik me.


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## Steamchick (Nov 21, 2021)

No need for any kicking.... You learn, write it up - we all learn! - Thanks! We are all learning a great deal from your posts. - just keep on keeping on Richard.
K2


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## Richard Hed (Nov 21, 2021)

malofix said:


> Status update - After spending the week trying to cut the stock to the size for flywheel using a hacksaw, today i'm finished cutting .Any advices regarding cutting stocks to the size?
> 
> I started looking through the bill of materials and i came across an air fitting, what is it and where can i find them? Or do i make them?


Do you have a photo of the air fitting?  I would not have any idea what it is without a better description.

As for cutting stock, don't be cutting your stock till you need it unless it is so large that it needs to cut for storage or handling.  How large was this flywheel piece you cut with a hacksaw?  Did you get any photos of you cutting it?  I would like to see that.  If the piece is not too large, you can cut it with a cut-off saw.  Do you have a cutoff saw?


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## malofix (Nov 21, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Do you have a photo of the air fitting?  I would not have any idea what it is without a better description.
> 
> As for cutting stock, don't be cutting your stock till you need it unless it is so large that it needs to cut for storage or handling.  How large was this flywheel piece you cut with a hacksaw?  Did you get any photos of you cutting it?  I would like to see that.  If the piece is not too large, you can cut it with a cut-off saw.  Do you have a cutoff saw?







 That is what plan show.

The stock i was cutting was about 65mm thick aluminum. What i have right now is just a hacksaw, i should buy a cut-off saw if i find with a good price.


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## Steamchick (Nov 21, 2021)

Maybe you can buy suitable cutting discs for an angle grinder? I have 1mm discs for steel,   but you need discs for aluminium that are a softer grit... like for cutting concrete...? And a frame to mount the grinder to use as a chop saw.
Otherwise, a branch saw (electric) with a hacksaw (metal) blade... I have a cheap Germany battery branch saw that will cut 2 in Aluminium, slowly!
K2


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## Steamchick (Nov 21, 2021)

The air connector shown looks like a quick connector for small air powered hand tools. Bought from you local tool shop.
K2


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## packrat (Nov 21, 2021)

Here in the USA we have a place called HOUSE OF HOSE they sell any and all hose and fittings air, water, steam you name it. Hope you can find what you are looking for..


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## Richard Hed (Nov 21, 2021)

packrat said:


> Here in the USA we have a place called HOUSE OF HOSE they sell any and all hose and fittings air, water, steam you name it. Hope you can find what you are looking for..


Actually, that sounds very naughty.  Of course, that would interest ME.


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## packrat (Nov 21, 2021)

Richard, I am sure you have something like that in Seattle.? I get a lot of air fittings and air hose from them for my day job {HVACR} also McMaster-Carr.
The poster from Turkey malofix may not have a place like that to shop.?


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## Richard Hed (Nov 21, 2021)

packrat said:


> Richard, I am sure you have something like that in Seattle.? I get a lot of air fittings and air hose from them for my day job {HVACR} also McMaster-Carr.
> The poster from Turkey malofix may not have a place like that to shop.?


Actually I live in Moses Lake, I just put Seattle so international people would have an idea where I live without having to resort to a map.  Yes, even in Moses Lake you can get stuff like that.  I don't know where in Turkey Malofix lives, but Turkey is a very modern country and I'm sure he could find it in one of the big cities.  Even in the philippines where I live a lot, yo can find that in the big cities and Philippines is NOT a modern country--at least in our sense of the word.

Maybe I mistook your meaning?  Were you talking about the "naughty" sense of the "house of hose"?  LOL  Those are in EVERY city.


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## animal12 (Nov 21, 2021)

Malofix , your lathe is not cutting wrong , when you turn your dial .001 that means it's removing .001 from each side of the  material being turned which turns out to be the .002 that your seeing . SO just remember that each time you turn your dial it's removing 2 times what the dial says . hope this makes sense .
animal


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## malofix (Nov 23, 2021)

Things left to do:
-Bore the cylinder. Problem: i don't have 4 jaw chuck and the smallest boring tool is 14mm(at max width) which is bigger than the cylinder diameter. What should i do?

-Make the shafts.

-Drill the base and vertical plate and try to assamble it all. Do it over again if something doesnt fit.

Apart from that my lathe frequently stops when taking cut, mostly when doig big cuts, and an orange led lights(problem indicator i guess) i think motor can't handle. What should i do? Can increase tork by adjusting the gears etc?


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## ShopShoe (Nov 23, 2021)

malofix,

You need a smaller boring tool. If you can't easily buy one, you can grind one if you have a grinder. My first boring tool was made from a standard HSS square toolbit. Some people save old cutters of all types for grinding into specialized tooling. You should be able to copy the profile of your existing cutter in a smaller size if you study it carefully.

"...Make a tool to make a tool to make a part to make a project."

--ShopShoe


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## malofix (Nov 23, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> "...Make a tool to make a tool to make a part to make a project."
> 
> --ShopShoe



Well, i guess we are as valuable as tools we own in this profession.


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## Richard Hed (Nov 23, 2021)

ShopShoe said:


> malofix,
> 
> You need a smaller boring tool. If you can't easily buy one, you can grind one if you have a grinder. My first boring tool was made from a standard HSS square toolbit. Some people save old cutters of all types for grinding into specialized tooling. You should be able to copy the profile of your existing cutter in a smaller size if you study it carefully.
> 
> ...


Hey, that's MY line!


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## Richard Hed (Nov 23, 2021)

malofix said:


> Well, i guess we are as valuable as tools we own in this profession.


Actually, not what we own, but what we can make.


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## Steamchick (Nov 24, 2021)

For a simple bored cylinder, a reamer often achieves the accuracy required. But I DON'T use my lathe for parallel and round bores by holding the work-piece in the chuck, as it is not so accurate a process. My first couple of engines were made this way, on different old lathes, but I generated  tapered bores due the the lathe alignment inaccuracy. I now bore with the mill-drill - mostly: as this means the tool describes a true circle, which then passes down the axis of the bore giving a true cylinder. On the lathe, it means the boring tool is mounted in the chuck/fixture in the main shaft - preferably between centres, and the work-piece is mounted on a fixture on the traverse (remove the tool post to mount a suitable bracket). Then the work-piece is traversed over the boring bar using the main carriage. 
But this often means more work than using the mill-drill (making mounting brackets and aligning the part to DTIs set in the chuck or between centres), and I am lazy, so use the mill-drill as a boring machine. Perfect bores every time, with no taper, nor circular error.
And this is how true bores are made in industry.
It helps to have a good mill-drill... but my first bore was "corrected" this way using a simple pedestal drill.
K2


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## Steamchick (Nov 24, 2021)

After all the platitudes, there is a "best way", which, when we adopt it, will give us the best parts.
Keep on writing and making swarf!
K2


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## malofix (Dec 7, 2021)

This is actually out of topic but here i go, how can i do tapered cuts on my lathe ? For pics of lathe click.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 7, 2021)

malofix said:


> This is actually out of topic but here i go, how can i do tapered cuts on my lathe ? For pics of lathe click.


There are several different ways you can make a taper.  You should tell us how steep the cut is and how long so we can advise you better.  But there is another type of taper, it is a hand rolled cigarette, is that what you want?  Just use scissors if you want to cut a cigarette.


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## packrat (Dec 7, 2021)

search for lathe tail stock adjustment to cut taper on the lathe.


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## Steamchick (Dec 8, 2021)

If the top feed-slide (with the tool-post) will rotate at an angle to the work-piece, that will cut a taper. It will have a base with degree markings on it...
K2


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## metalmangler (Dec 8, 2021)

I made a taper-turning attachment for my tailstock for turning between centres :-


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## malofix (Dec 8, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> There are several different ways you can make a taper.  You should tell us how steep the cut is and how long so we can advise you better.  But there is another type of taper, it is a hand rolled cigarette, is that what you want?  Just use scissors if you want to cut a cigarette.



Probably less than 45 degrees.



Steamchick said:


> If the top feed-slide (with the tool-post) will rotate at an angle to the work-piece, that will cut a taper. It will have a base with degree markings on it...
> K2



Nope, there is no rotating mechanism. It is a cheap chinese lathe, that's why probably.



metalmangler said:


> I made a taper-turning attachment for my tailstock for turning between centres :-
> View attachment 131705
> View attachment 131706
> View attachment 131707



How does it work?


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## metalmangler (Dec 8, 2021)

malofix said:


> How does it work?


It's the same as any other turning between centres, except you deliberately introduce a difference between the headstock end and the tailstock end by offsetting one end of the workpiece away from the centre-line of the lathe. This results in the two ends turning different diameters, thereby introducing the taper between them.


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## djswain1 (Dec 8, 2021)

Hi Malofix  this is what Steamchick was referring to:  Compound Slide – Chester Hobby Store

Called a top slide or compound slide, bigger lathes usually have them as standard but you would have to buy or make one.

On my lathe from I would use the top slide for a steep angle like 45deg
Cheers 
Dave


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## malofix (Dec 8, 2021)

djswain1 said:


> Hi Malofix  this is what Steamchick was referring to:  Compound Slide – Chester Hobby Store
> 
> Called a top slide or compound slide, bigger lathes usually have them as standard but you would have to buy or make one.
> 
> ...



That looks good, unfortunately many of the sellers dont ship to Turkey, not that there are many sellers that offer this compound slide. Maybe one day i'll try to make one myself.

Thanks.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 9, 2021)

malofix said:


> That looks good, unfortunately many of the sellers dont ship to Turkey, not that there are many sellers that offer this compound slide. Maybe one day i'll try to make one myself.
> 
> Thanks.


Here is a guy making his own lathe.  You might be able to follow how he builds his top slide:


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## Steamchick (Dec 10, 2021)

Hi Malofix: I have been unable to view the "Mini-torma" Hobby lathe, to be able to answer your question. 
The taper by tailstock displacement is good for a few degrees of taper on a long bar (such as Morse tapers, etc.).
The Compound slide rotation is much more suited to shorter taper - within the stroke of the compound slide.
I assume you do not have a compound slide.... (as I can't see the pictures).
K2


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## malofix (Dec 10, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Malofix: I have been unable to view the "Mini-torma" Hobby lathe, to be able to answer your question.
> The taper by tailstock displacement is good for a few degrees of taper on a long bar (such as Morse tapers, etc.).
> The Compound slide rotation is much more suited to shorter taper - within the stroke of the compound slide.
> I assume you do not have a compound slide.... (as I can't see the pictures).
> K2


Yes i dont i have one. I'm thinking to make one myself using a milling attachment(the one i talked before). If it is possible of course.

Buying a compound slide is half the cost lathe i own.

I'll be making the tools i need for years to come it seems.

Edit: I've decided to make the milling attachment and the compound slide by myself. I'll see if i can use the drill press to make light cuts to make the milling attachment and then i'll use the milling attachment i made to make the compound slide. This way i wont pay huge sums, but perpahs pay its equivalent amount of time. 

Edit 2: Or buy one of these Proxxon MF70s for the price of almost a compound slide.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 10, 2021)

malofix said:


> Yes i dont i have one. I'm thinking to make one myself using a milling attachment(the one i talked before). If it is possible of course.
> 
> Buying a compound slide is half the cost lathe i own.
> 
> ...


Well, I applaud you that you will make your own tools.  After all, that is really what machining is all about:  Making tools to make the tools that you will make the parts with.  I wonder, however, what tools you already have?  I know you are bootstrapping, and I always applaud someone who picks him/herself up by their own bootstraps and has the ambition enough to get off the go**amned couch and DO SOMETHING fun and useful!  So, do you have a welder?  That would help in certain situations.  Or do you have a friend who has tools you may borrow?  I know you have a drill press, that is almost an absolute necessity, altho' one could get away with a simple electric drill for most operations.  How about a grinder?  what kind of saw do you have?

Do you have access to a school or shop that has larger tools like grinders, or a mill?

Now for that Proxxon you are drooling over.  I could not find the price for that in about 10 minutes of search--I am VERY wary about any company which hides the price tag.  I have, in fact, had the experiecne, at least once, wherein a company kept the price hidden till you checked out, after you gave them your name, eddress, bank numbers--all that, and THEN you got the outrageous price!  (The Chinese try this trick, to hide the price as long as possible sometimes.)  I know those Proxxons are expensive, But they also have a very good reputation, even so, my recommendation is to build your own milling attachment.  However, I would certainly NOT build that first--I would build the compound slide first.  If you have a welder you can sort of follow the method in the utube vid in which the youngster builds his own clever lathe, carefully adapting his method for making the compound slide to the tools YOU have in which you could build one yourself.  I thimpfks that the most difficult part to build would be a quality screw and nut.  The bevelled parts would present a challenge also.  

If you do not have a welder, you can certainly use screws or bolts.  

HOwever, if you choose to build a milling attachment first, (really, it's sort of a toss-up which you choose to make first), there are some easy ones to make that use no bevels, just slides and bolts.  One of the old magazines has a drawing of one.  If you are interested, I will try to find it.


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## malofix (Dec 10, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Well, I applaud you that you will make your own tools.  After all, that is really what machining is all about:  Making tools to make the tools that you will make the parts with.  I wonder, however, what tools you already have?  I know you are bootstrapping, and I always applaud someone who picks him/herself up by their own bootstraps and has the ambition enough to get off the go**amned couch and DO SOMETHING fun and useful!  So, do you have a welder?  That would help in certain situations.  Or do you have a friend who has tools you may borrow?  I know you have a drill press, that is almost an absolute necessity, altho' one could get away with a simple electric drill for most operations.  How about a grinder?  what kind of saw do you have?
> 
> Do you have access to a school or shop that has larger tools like grinders, or a mill?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the commends. No welder unfortunately. I got the lathe, drill press, grinder(also which i should make a tool rest for), taps and such other small or hand tools. Thats about it currently. I can have access to a nearby shop but that would be limited. Like i dont know how to operate a mill and they probably wouldnt let me use it without supervision, which might be a time problem.

The proxxon mill is about 310$ here. I'd prefer bolts and screws for simplicity's sake, but i'll see if i can use the shop for mill and welder. One thing i don't know is what are the critical points about compound slide. Probably the tool holder height, what else? Which material to use? I'd love to have dimensions for that sieg c1 compound slide if anyone got it.

It would be great if you can find that drawings.

Thanks.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 10, 2021)

malofix said:


> Thanks for the commends. No welder unfortunately. I got the lathe, drill press, grinder(also which i should make a tool rest for), taps and such other small or hand tools. Thats about it currently. I can have access to a nearby shop but that would be limited. Like i dont know how to operate a mill and they probably wouldnt let me use it without supervision, which might be a time problem.
> 
> The proxxon mill is about 310$ here. I'd prefer bolts and screws for simplicity's sake, but i'll see if i can use the shop for mill and welder. One thing i don't know is what are the critical points about compound slide. Probably the tool holder height, what else? Which material to use? I'd love to have dimensions for that sieg c1 compound slide if anyone got it.
> 
> ...


You have to have the strength, after all the removal of the inside material, that the remaining bed will be able to manage the stresses of machining.  With that little lathe you have, you will not need all that much.  The top of the compound has to have enough room to machine a method to hold the tool holder--you could use a couple of methods for that.  AND the underside needs the room for the screw to travel and the placement of the nut.  I'm sure you could find drawings for this, maybe not with dimensions but concept for sure.  After all that, yuou want the thing to be as low as possible to be able to get a spinning work piece of the largest size over that compound.  You have to balance all those concepts together to get your end result.


----------



## Richard Hed (Dec 10, 2021)

malofix said:


> Thanks for the commends. No welder unfortunately. I got the lathe, drill press, grinder(also which i should make a tool rest for), taps and such other small or hand tools. Thats about it currently. I can have access to a nearby shop but that would be limited. Like i dont know how to operate a mill and they probably wouldnt let me use it without supervision, which might be a time problem.
> 
> The proxxon mill is about 310$ here. I'd prefer bolts and screws for simplicity's sake, but i'll see if i can use the shop for mill and welder. One thing i don't know is what are the critical points about compound slide. Probably the tool holder height, what else? Which material to use? I'd love to have dimensions for that sieg c1 compound slide if anyone got it.
> 
> ...





here is an examle that you could probably work from.  I cannot find eithr the thread in HMEM in which I posted the 3D drawig of an attachmet which used no slanted cuts, it only bolted slides together.  I was going to try to build this but ended up getting one by othr means.  I thimpfks that the drawing I have is stuck in a dead computer.


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## djswain1 (Dec 10, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> View attachment 131807
> here is an examle that you could probably work from.  I cannot find eithr the thread in HMEM in which I posted the 3D drawig of an attachmet which used no slanted cuts, it only bolted slides together.  I was going to try to build this but ended up getting one by othr means.  I thimpfks that the drawing I have is stuck in a dead computer.


Malofix  There is a free plan for a vertical slide on the model engines website that you can download:






						Free Plan: Cross Vice to Vertical Slide - Article Reprints
					






					www.model-engineer.co.uk


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## Richard Hed (Dec 10, 2021)

djswain1 said:


> Malofix  There is a free plan for a vertical slide on the model engines website that you can download:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanx for that.  I've never seen that particular one before.  Doesn't look too difficult.


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## malofix (Dec 12, 2021)

So i'll try to make sieg c1 compound slide parts by myself. The thing is i have only drill press to remove material from the work piece, so it'll be like drill close to the size then file it by hand. I'm not sure it'll work for the dovetail though. What do you guys think ? Especially on making the dovetail.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 12, 2021)

malofix said:


> So i'll try to make sieg c1 compound slide parts by myself. The thing is i have only drill press to remove material from the work piece, so it'll be like drill close to the size then file it by hand. I'm not sure it'll work for the dovetail though. What do you guys think ? Especially on making the dovetail.
> View attachment 131845
> View attachment 131846


Use the other method -- no extensive filing, but when you get better equipment (which this can help to build), you can do as your drawing.  I'll make a quick drawing and post in a bit.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 12, 2021)

OK, here is a rough view of the two major constructions.  You have to fill in the details, bolts and they way you attach this to the slide and to your tool holder.


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## malofix (Dec 12, 2021)

I couldnt understand your drawings but i think you are suggesting that i make it from multiple parts instead of one single square block, like in the video you posted and instead of dovetails an L shaped fit? Now to think it might be better that way. What thickness of steel plate would you suggest for construction? And bolts sizes (In metric pls)?


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## Richard Hed (Dec 12, 2021)

malofix said:


> I couldnt understand your drawings but i think you are suggesting that i make it from multiple parts instead of one single square block, like in the video you posted? Now to think it might be better that way. What thickness of steel plate would you suggest for construction? And bolts sizes (In metric pls)?


Yes, that bottom drawing didn't show up correctly.  I'll try to redo it.  this is only a concept, you'll have to put it together using what you have or is available.  You have to decide all your questions as it relates to your lathe--from the slide to the center of your spindle.  I do not know what that is.

But you want this to be as thick as is practical but as thin as possible.  Thickness is for strength and non-flexing, but thinness is so you can get as large a piece as possible over the whole system when you are cutting a long piece.  This cross slide needs to be off to the side as far as possible so you have more room to put a larger piece in the 3 jaw.  You will need to put a screw in there someplace and a nut so these will take up space also. 

yes, multiple plates of steel bolted together.  Make them tight so they fit together (the top and the bottom) so they slide easily but no slop.


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## Steamchick (Dec 12, 2021)

If you buy gauge plate, it is ground top and bottom parallel, with square sides. Then if you get some pieces to suit you only need to drill and tap to join them together. Easy to make channels... I would use hex. Socket screws, with heads countersunk into the parts to make the basic shapes. 
Your lathe can be used as a simple miller, say, for the mitres, by clamping a piece - carefully set-up - on the cross slide, and putting the milling cutter into the chuck.Then you can add cut with the main saddle feed, and traverse the workpiece across the milling tool by using the cross-feed.. Remember that the metal must be worked against the rotating tool. Otherwise the tool will drag the workpiece into the cut, and the slack in the feed screw will permit chatter and bad machining.
Enjoy the design and planning the manufacture!
K2


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## malofix (Dec 22, 2021)

So i'm still designing the compound slide (or trying). I plan to use 5mm aluminum and steel plates at some places and 10mm at other places. The thing is i'm unsure how should i attach 5mm plates with other parts. Being 5mm it doesnt offer much space to drill and tap to use with screws. Probably i can use M1.6 or M2 screws or maybe i should use chemical bonding like loctite?


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

malofix said:


> So i'm still designing the compound slide (or trying). I plan to use 5mm aluminum and steel plates at some places and 10mm at other places. The thing is i'm unsure how should i attach 5mm plates with other parts. Being 5mm it doesnt offer much space to drill and tap to use with screws. Probably i can use M1.6 or M2 screws or maybe i should use chemical bonding like loctite?


If you made a drawing or showed us plans, maybe we could advise.  We need to know the distance from the center of spindle to the top of the cross slide.  I would stay away from aluminum as it is too soft and wears too quickly


----------



## malofix (Dec 22, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> If you made a drawing or showed us plans, maybe we could advise.  We need to know the distance from the center of spindle to the top of the cross slide.  I would stay away from aluminum as it is too soft and wears too quickly



Design is a mess right now but once it looks like something i'll post it here. Distance between center of spindle to the top of the cross slide is 17mm. Center of spindle is below the top of the cross slide (naturally ). I'll be using all steel plates i guess.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

malofix said:


> Design is a mess right now but once it looks like something i'll post it here. Distance between center of spindle to the top of the cross slide is 17mm. Center of spindle is below the top of the cross slide (naturally ). I'll be using all steel plates i guess.


17 mm is only as big as yor thumb.  I suppose you mean 170mm?  What plan have you adopted?  One of the ones I gave a crude drawing of?  Yes, I thimpfks that 10mm is proabably OK, may a little thicker for the top part would be better, however.


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## malofix (Dec 22, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> 17 mm is only as big as yor thumb.  I suppose you mean 170mm?  What plan have you adopted?  One of the ones I gave a crude drawing of?  Yes, I thimpfks that 10mm is proabably OK, may a little thicker for the top part would be better, however.



Nope 17mm. Yes i've used your plan mixed with my lathe's tool post dimensions. My tool post is as follows, 35x35mm x 55mm height. So 55mm is my top points extracted from the spindle center to the carriage( which is where i'll be mounting compound slide) that is 38mm. So distance is 17mm. But if you'd suggest i'd like to use bigger dimensions simply to use 10mm plates instead of 5mm. I dont know how big should compound slide be though.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

malofix said:


> Nope 17mm. Yes i've used your plan mixed with my lathe's tool post dimensions. My tool post is as follows, 35x35mm x 55mm height. So 55mm is my top points extracted from the spindle center to the carriage( which is where i'll be mounting compound slide) that is 38mm. So distance is 17mm. But if you'd suggest i'd like to use bigger dimensions simply to use 10mm plates instead of 5mm. I dont know how big should compound slide be though.


OK, my mistake, It is hard to believe you have such a small working area.  It's good for small parts and you will do fine with it.  Yes, in fact, you might be better to reduce it to 8 or 7 mm just to help get some space in there.  I suppose 5 mm might work--you are there, you can see the lathe, all the problems you need to solve, I am not there, words often do not tell the story well.  That's why I ask for drawings, but I have seen a photo of your lathe, I just have a difficutl time believeing yuou only have 17mm.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

Wait a minute, I just viewed the lathe you put a link up for.  This says from the top of the slide to the center is 140mm.  That will give you the room you need.  I'll try to draw up a "concept" for the "T" slots on your lathe.  YOu will have to make it fit your dimensions, however.


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## Steamchick (Dec 22, 2021)

Chemical bonding is nowhere near strong enough for joining metal in this sort of application. Riveting is a process that can use (say) 3 mm holes, 3mm rivets, with 1 mm land either side in a 5 mm bar. No waste, strong and secure.Ships used to be held together with rivets, and also aeroplanes... so properly designed joints can be as strong as the parent material. Or a couple of rivets for assembly, then silver solder?
K2


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

Here is the bottom part comprising 4 parts that you simply bolt together using the "T" slots to hold it all together.  The holes on the two side plates have to be made to span to the center of your T slots.  The middle part has to be bolted to the bottom part.  This middle part is the nut for the threaded upper sections screw.  

OK, next for the top and screw.


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## Richard Hed (Dec 22, 2021)

Here is the top section.  You will need a handle for the screw, yu can make a dial.  The threads, since you are doing metric, should be 10 or 1mm which will make the dial easy to make.  How you make the threads is up to you.  Make two bearings, one which is simply a holder, but the front one should be made in a manner which you can hold the end of the screw for pushing in and out.  

If hyou make this all out of 5 mm, you should have a bit of room left over, you might be able to make it even thinner.  Of course, the bearings and the nut on the bottom section have to be in line and matched up.  That will take a bit of space too.  attach the bearings by screw from the top


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## Richard Hed (Dec 23, 2021)

Whoops, here is an addition tht is needed:


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## malofix (Dec 23, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Chemical bonding is nowhere near strong enough for joining metal in this sort of application. Riveting is a process that can use (say) 3 mm holes, 3mm rivets, with 1 mm land either side in a 5 mm bar. No waste, strong and secure.Ships used to be held together with rivets, and also aeroplanes... so properly designed joints can be as strong as the parent material. Or a couple of rivets for assembly, then silver solder?
> K2



I'll check into rivets. It looks like what i need.



Richard Hed said:


> Here is the bottom part comprising 4 parts that you simply bolt together using the "T" slots to hold it all together.  The holes on the two side plates have to be made to span to the center of your T slots.  The middle part has to be bolted to the bottom part.  This middle part is the nut for the threaded upper sections screw.
> 
> OK, next for the top and screw.



Thanks i appreciate the time you took for this, i'll be checking it throughly, today i hope, and make my design based on yours. I'll post it here.


Richard Hed said:


> Here is the top section.  You will need a handle for the screw, yu can make a dial.  The threads, since you are doing metric, should be 10 or 1mm which will make the dial easy to make.  How you make the threads is up to you.  Make two bearings, one which is simply a holder, but the front one should be made in a manner which you can hold the end of the screw for pushing in and out.
> 
> If hyou make this all out of 5 mm, you should have a bit of room left over, you might be able to make it even thinner.  Of course, the bearings and the nut on the bottom section have to be in line and matched up.  That will take a bit of space too.  attach the bearings by screw from the top



10mm screw goes with about 16mm nut (M10) so that will be reduced from usable space. I don't think i understood what should front bearing should do? Do you mean i should tap the front bearing so that screw doesnt come free?


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## Richard Hed (Dec 23, 2021)

malofix said:


> I'll check into rivets. It looks like what i need.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NOt tap it, make little spaces on the screw for a ring keeper on one end where the screw fits into the bearing.  On sthe other side, leave a little material to stop the screw from moving on the other side.

You will see the one ring that is larger than the shaft, which will keep the screw from moving on that side of the bearing.  On the other side is a ring cutout for a spring keeper.  This way your shaft is held tight against the bearing which pushes the cross slide back and forth.


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## malofix (Dec 23, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> NOt tap it, make little spaces on the screw for a ring keeper on one end where the screw fits into the bearing.  On sthe other side, leave a little material to stop the screw from moving on the other side.
> 
> You will see the one ring that is larger than the shaft, which will keep the screw from moving on that side of the bearing.  On the other side is a ring cutout for a spring keeper.  This way your shaft is held tight against the bearing which pushes the cross slide back and forth.



I think i got it. So we want screw to only move through the nut on the bottom part. It shouldnt move through the bearings. Hence ring on the screw.

On the bottom section there are two plates on the sides of the nut. How i'll attach them ? I think of adding another block on both sides of the nut to support side plates also to attach them.


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## packrat (Dec 23, 2021)

Quote "I'll check into rivets. It looks like what i need. "
 AK-47 receivers {1.0 mm or 1.5 mm sheet steel} are put together with rivets and the heads are mushroomed with a 12 ton or 20 ton press and a rivet die..
seems to be very strong joint. Steam boilers were also put together with red hot rivets and rolled steel plates, like Steamchick has said.


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## malofix (Dec 23, 2021)

packrat said:


> Quote "I'll check into rivets. It looks like what i need. "
> AK-47 receivers {1.0 mm or 1.5 mm sheet steel} are put together with rivets and the heads are mushroomed with a 12 ton or 20 ton press and a rivet die..
> seems to be very strong joint. Steam boilers were also put together with red hot rivets and rolled steel plates, like Steamchick has said.



Using rivet guns will be enough ?


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## packrat (Dec 23, 2021)

Yes air rivet guns work, like the ones air craft manufacturing plants use, if you can find one,? price my be more then a milling attachment for your lathe..


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## Steamchick (Dec 24, 2021)

Normally a hammer is adequate. The regular ball pein hammer is designed for that anyway. The ball end for riveting, the pein (flat end) for forging (flats) or driving drifts and nails....
Use a 1mm x 1mm countersink on the outer ends of the hole through the 2 parts to be joined. The rivet is forged into that small countersink, and prevents separation of parts. Leave a little proud then file flush afterwards.
In the absence of a 20 ton press, you can do the riveting in a 4 inch engineers vice. (a good strong one). But the action of "peining-over" the end of the rivet has 2 actions: I.E.  to close the joint tightly, and to forge rivet metal into a shoulder to take the stress of the assembly. I am sure there will be a Utube on riveting...?
K2


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## ShopShoe (Dec 24, 2021)

Stan Shire put a thread on this forum few years ago where he built a riveted boiler. This includes how he made riveting tools:






						PMR Horizontal Boiler - A Riveting Build
					

Now I get it. Building a boiler consists of drilling an infinite number of holes, which are then filled with an infinite number of rivets, which then results in the boilermaker running to the the nearest bar and ordering an infinite number of boilermakers.  I've never riveted before and, after...




					www.homemodelenginemachinist.com
				




--ShopShoe


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## packrat (Dec 24, 2021)

QUOTE " I am sure there will be a Utube on riveting...? "

Lots of YouTube sites show riveting, search AK-47 builds.


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## malofix (Dec 24, 2021)

packrat said:


> Yes air rivet guns work, like the ones air craft manufacturing plants use, if you can find one,? price my be more then a milling attachment for your lathe..



I can't justify that amount for air rivet guns. I was referring to the hand powered one that cost 10 or 20 bucks.


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## packrat (Dec 24, 2021)

Watch a YouTube vide on building a AK-47 it shows how they do it. gen boy is a good one {I think you can get a ball peen hammer for about $20.00 US}
McMaster-Carr here in the US has rivets all sizes not sure if Thiel ship out to you.?? look at post 104


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## malofix (Dec 24, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Here is the bottom part comprising 4 parts that you simply bolt together using the "T" slots to hold it all together.  The holes on the two side plates have to be made to span to the center of your T slots.  The middle part has to be bolted to the bottom part.  This middle part is the nut for the threaded upper sections screw.
> 
> OK, next for the top and screw.



Here is my interpretation of your design

Top section







Bottom section





Base





The bearings you mentioned isnt shown here but i'll add them on the construction. Also screw (or rivet) holes arent shown.
Now is the part where you tell me what i did wrong.


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## malofix (Dec 28, 2021)

Any feedbacks?


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## packrat (Dec 28, 2021)

Are you tack welding it together or ? Do you have a drawing of the finished item.?


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## malofix (Dec 29, 2021)

packrat said:


> Are you tack welding it together or ? Do you have a drawing of the finished item.?



There is not holes in the drawing but i will use screws or rivets. I might shorten the top section to a square(probably 50x50mm)


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## ron4vt (Dec 30, 2021)

Malofix, regards!  I've been following you on the advancements for your first Oscillating Engine and decided to show you mine, which was built a long time ago, before the aid of any Cad 3D software program ( something I cannot live without anymore). This little engine was first designed as being a double acting one, but worked well as a single acting. The aim was pushing a small boat. The following pics can help you moving forward with your overall structure:


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## malofix (Dec 30, 2021)

ron4vt said:


> Malofix, regards!  I've been following you on the advancements for your first Oscillating Engine and decided to show you mine, which was built a long time ago, before the aid of any Cad 3D software program ( something I cannot live without anymore). This little engine was first designed as being a double acting one, but worked well as a single acting. The aim was pushing a small boat. The following pics can help you moving forward with your overall structure:



Thank you, i appreciate it.


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## ron4vt (Dec 31, 2021)

Malofix, you are welcome !   Best to you and have success !


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