# metal for steam engine??



## kye (Jul 11, 2011)

hi guys, im planning on casting up some parts for a steam engine in particular the steam cylinder, stand ( which will have the slide in it) and the fly wheel. these are going to be cast in one go, but i dont know what metal is going to be the most suitable for these mainly high wear parts. i dont have any bronze or brass alloys but what i do have is a heap of copper, aluminium, some tin and some zinc. so i suppose what im wondering is which out of brass, bronze(tin) and or aluminium bronze would be best?


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## rkepler (Jul 14, 2011)

Out of what you listed bronze is the most common cylinder material. The traditional material is "gunmetal bronze" (aka CDA 905) a high tin bronze, but I've see Everdur (CDA 655, a silicon bronze) used as well. If you're going to run it on steam you'll likely want cast iron rings for the piston, but if you're planning in running on air you can get away with o-rings (viton rings can suffice for steam rings and will server always as seals). I don't know about aluminum bronze for either, it's usually considered a real PITA to work and I think most folks avoid it for that reason.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jul 14, 2011)

Three types of metal can be found at Budget Castings which seem to be good for engines, which are:

360 aluminum
Red brass
White manganese brass

Standard brass is said to be hard to cast due to separation of the copper and zinc.

I look for metal that provides a clean surface finish, will readily pour at a reasonable temperature, and is in the 80% or greater range for machinability.
Cost of the above metal alloys is generally high.

Gray cast iron is a much less expensive material, but also much more difficult to cast since it has such a high melting temperature. Gray cast iron will provide the best wear characteristics of any metal (in my opinion), and gray cast iron running on gray cast iron is the ultimate from what I have read in the old books of when the large engines were made.


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## kye (Jul 18, 2011)

so i did a little looking around on the net as well as taking what you guys said into consideration, ive decided to go with i high leaded bronze that will contain 10% lead and 10%tin. reasons being 1-will be the easiest to make because i can just use unfluxed plumbers solder which is usually 50/50 lead tin to make it. 2- the high lead content means a lower melting point and will improve its casting properties. and 3- its machinability is rated at 80.










 this is the wooden model of the steam engine.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 18, 2011)

nice looking pattern . one thing i noctice thou is lack of risers IIRC the metal has to follow a path in the large fill tube thought the cavty fo rthe part and up a riser that allows for complete fill no air pockets. 
I have only done a lot f reading you are ahed of me on the doing end. 
Tin


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## sunworksco (Jul 18, 2011)

Silicon bronze is the wisest choice.
Regards,
Giovanni


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## steamer (Jul 18, 2011)

giovanni  said:
			
		

> Silicon bronze is the wisest choice.
> Regards,
> Giovanni



Not a bad choice.....but it's aweful to machine...very stringy....why not 660 bearing bronze...machines "like butta" and holds up to steam just fine...especially in models.

Spent the afternoon making this eyebolt out of silcon bronze for my boat....aweful stuff...even for a 2 HP, 12" lathe.










Dave


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## sunworksco (Jul 18, 2011)

Beautiful work Steamer!
You are right about hardness but the cylinder needs hardness.
Giovanni


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## hopeless (Jul 18, 2011)

I am just resuming a project that has been languishing in dust for about 10 years  (due mainly to a lack of skills at that time. Improving now :big Its a Bolton No 5 marine steam engine out of castings. The cylinder and quite a few bits all made of 'gunmetal'. There have been many made and still work quite well which is not that surprising as they don't run for long periods.
Cheers
Pete


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## sunworksco (Jul 18, 2011)

Is this the engine?
Kind regards,
Giovanni

[ame]http://youtu.be/4IhsLmX6HG4[/ame]


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## kye (Jul 19, 2011)

so i decided to do a "proof of concept" casting of the pattern in aluminium today to weed any problems i would face before i cast it up in bronze. dispite a few hikups like not have enough greensand and a mis-alinement of the cope and drag the castings came out lovely.




casting fresh out of the mold.




the stand cleaned up a little.




and again.




this photo shows the mis alinement.








the flywheel.

now for the not so good bit, i was wrried/expecting the steam cylinder to suffer from shrinkage thats why i did it today in the aluminium. as you can see it surtainly did so i need to redesign the riser and gates for it.





mackye


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## ShedBoy (Jul 19, 2011)

I would call that a great first run. Best thing about melting is it can be remelted. Its all a learning curve.

Brock


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## metalmad (Jul 19, 2011)

Nice one Mate
just chuck em back in tomorrow :big:
Well done
Pete


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## Herbiev (Jul 19, 2011)

Apart from the missalignment it looks like a good pour. Remember practice makes perfect :idea:


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## kye (Jul 25, 2011)

over the last couple of days i was able to get some more casting done. i now have two good castings of the flywheel, two of the cylinder and one of the stand.








just out of the sand.








back side still needs cleaning up.








cylinder.








and finally the stand, which im really happy about how its turned out.

cheers, kye.


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## JorgensenSteam (Jul 25, 2011)

Very nice work Kye.

Pat J


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## bezalel2000 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Kye

Looks like you've sussed out the shrinkage problem you had. Looking good Thm:

Have you given any more thought to the idea of the leaded bronze? 



			
				kye  said:
			
		

> I've decided to go with i high leaded bronze that will contain 10% lead and 10%tin. - the high lead content means a lower melting point and will improve its casting properties. and 3- its machinability is rated at 80



The reason I ask is that one of your reasons for using leaded bronze (lower melting temperature) contradicts my understanding of the metallurgy involved in Lead Copper alloys. 

The Binary Phase diagram lead-Copper and the ternary phase diagram Lead-Tin-Copper both show that the melting temperature of the alloy is not going to be reduced by much until the lead exceeds 90%.
It is the Tin that mostly reduces the melting temperature.

Here is the Lead-Copper phase diagram you can see the melt temp doesn't get much below 960 deg C until it is nearly all lead. In fact what your looking at is melting temperatures similar to or slightly less than Eutectic Cast Iron 






And here is the Lead - Tin - Copper phase diagram. Same story, the best melting temp you'll get using Copper and Plumbers solder is at the intersection of the Red an Blue lines (about 830 deg C) Where the copper content is about 67% any higher or lower the melting temperature increases.






Below the red line there is a faint doted line that represents what melting temperature you can achieve with electricians solder - 60/40 eutectic solder. By using eutectic solder with even less copper say 64% you can achieve a melting temperature of around 785 deg C.

I'll leave it as an exercise for you to work out what the melting temperature of your proposed alloy is at
(Cu80% - Sn10% - Pb10%) 

Any way all the best with it, I just wanted to give you a heads up on what your dealing with and how you can calculate alloy melting temperatures if you didn't already know.

Cheers
Bez


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## kye (Sep 13, 2011)

hi guys, sorry for the lack of replies im back at uni now and that has understandably taken priority. 

bez, thankyou for that very informative post regarding bronze compositions :bow:, i was very interested in reading how little the lead percentage effected the melting temperature of bronze. though nothing should surprize me in the world of metalurgy it is such a very large field of science(??? or feild of its own)!!!!

having being thinking about this for what has been probably been close to a month and a half, the concept of me making my own alloy while sounding appealing probably its going to be the best option in the long run. the only reason i was considering it is because of the relatively large amount of copper i have (found 40m worth of old mains wiring that had been dug up from an old clubhouse, equated to roughly 20kg of copper ;D) but i figure i may as well use what bronze scrap i do have laying about.

as for progress ive made the wooden pattern for the base of the engine, im rather happy with how it looks so far considering im designing this guy myself. ive also done small amounts of turning on the other parts after work on my bosses lathe as well as designs for the other parts to come.






















i also tried my hand at fabrcating a crank shaft, in the end it was a complete failure BUT in a way i wont it to be ive learnt so very much from it that im sure when i finally get around to making one for this project it will come together and work without any (touch wood) problems.

i spose now all i need to do is buy my self a nice lathe (which i am currently "trying" to save for, uni isnt very understanding in that prospect :-[) and this little project of mine may one day come together :big:.

p.s. if anyone knows of a goodish lathe for a basicly complete noivice around the $1000au price range suggestions would be so so very much apprieciated. ive run into what seems to be something a lot of beginners run into when trying to choose a new machine, doing lots of research but as a result feeling completely overwhelmed and more confused then when you started, the best advise i can figure would deffinently come from some of the stupidly wise and experienced guys here .

cheers kye.


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## bezalel2000 (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi Kye

You could always cash in the copper at a scrap merchant. 
As clean copper scrap (stripped from the insulation), 20kg should get near $150 that aught to help buy some tooling for your lathe or even the alloy you were after. ;D

Are you planning to mount the engine on the timber plinth or use it as a pattern for a greensand mold?

Bez


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## kye (Oct 2, 2011)

hi all, just a small update.

i was able to cast the base of the engine as im on a week break from uni (really not much of a break given the 7 assignments currently on my plate :- )

it was only a quick pour so the sand mould came out a little rough in the edges, but for the most part im really happy with it.










kye


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## NickG (Oct 2, 2011)

Great work Kye especially being at Uni at the same time!


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## doubleboost (Oct 2, 2011)

Hi
Just found this thread
Good job on the casting
This is a link to how i did mine 
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=5461.0


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## kye (Jun 16, 2012)

hi all!!

so its been quite some time since I've posted anything in here, but i have been busy working on the steam engine whenever Ive had time.
 since the last time you heard from me i have made some trastic changes to my workshop  with the purchasing of a lathe, a heap of tooliing for it and a mill which i only very recently got.














my workshop also now has quite a bit of other machinery as well including a simple mig welder, a furnace that i made, an elcheapo belt and disk sander, band saw as well as a few other wood working tools.

during the yr Ive made changes and design altercations to the steam engine and for the most part the design is finalized.





within the last couple of weeks Ive been able to get away from my uni work and into the garage to start on making all the patterns for the different components.

this is the new base i will be making




the steam chest








the bearing cap thingo




the cylinder caps top and bottom




and how they were made




the steam chest cover plate





today i decided id like to see how a small furnace id made would handle some heat so set it up and started running it..... immeadetly i could tell that it was going to burn bloody hot and so chucked in some castiron. well within about 2minutes it was a nice little pool at the bottom of the crucible so i added some more and ran around frantically to get some greensand ready for the iron.
so i poured it and this is the result!! 




as i poured it with an open top the piece is quite thick but as it was only really a test to show it could be done I'm bloody happy.
here it the little furnace post burn









so i have one exam coming up in less then a week but after that I'm hoping to get a large deal of the castings done and a fair bit of machining work as well.


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## kye (Jun 16, 2012)

ohh i almost forgot about some of the other stuff ive done here and there most will end up being practise peices.
piston and piston rod




a mostly sucsessful crank shaft silver soldered together




this is a conrod and the slider thing 




some bronze bearings




the eccentric cam, this ill be using and im really happy with how it came out.









finally this is the first HSS bit i ever ground, really proud it it so just had to post a pi of it 









mackye.


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## Rayanth (Jun 16, 2012)

looking good, kye!

Hey send that bit my way, would ya? I'm about to have to grind my first one myself...

- Ryan


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## steamer (Jun 16, 2012)

YUP

Nothing wrong with that bit!  I might knock the very tip down a bit so it won't chip, but with soft aluminum,,,,it might not matter...

Dave


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## bezalel2000 (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi Kye

congratulation on the iron casting

The sand side of the casting looks like it was reasonably filable, did you get much chill hardness on the open/air cooled side of the casting? 

Bez


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## kye (Jun 17, 2012)

hi dave, the photos dont really show it but there is a nice radius at the tip. it did cut steel beautifully but it was a bit of beginners luck and i ended up butchering it when i tried resharpening it .

bez, i havnt really done anything to see whether there are hard spots or not, as i sanded it on a belt sander and on the bench grinder. when i poured it and as soon as i noticed that it had solidified i put a heap of dry green sand over it to slow down the cooling rate, which seemed to work as it was still red quite a few minutes later when i checked it.


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## kye (Jun 28, 2012)

hi all,

bez, i can happily say that the cast iron machined very nicely!! there didnt seem to be any hard spots and all the chips were a very nice dark grey colour. 













today i intended to cast the base for the engine, things didnt end up going quite so well as id hoped :-. firstly when i was making the sand mold the pattern clearly wasnt quite ready and i was stuffing arounf for ages trying to get the sand to part from the internal portion of the pattern. turned out there were two small spots that were sticking out a bit which held the sand firmly in place, but i finally got around it and make a usable sand mold.

then to make things just that little bit more annoying it turns out that went i was gathering all my pieces of unknownium from my "aluminium" box, what i can only presume to be a piece of die cast magnesium from an old computer went into the melt and basicly destroyed the pour. as youll see in the photos below, the overall dimensions and shape turned out great, but the surface finish is s*#t and the metal itself is highly granular and extremely brittle and has rendered it completely unusable.  


















progress should hopefully pick up next week and hopefully ill be able to get a large number of the castings done and ill be able to do some machining as well! 

until then.....

mackye


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## kye (Jul 16, 2012)

hi all,
i have made some progress with the casting of the base, i recast and whilst im still not 100% happy with the alloy, its now at least workable and the casting itself came out nicely.

i took some photos of the sand molds used but didnt end up taking any photos post cast and during the machining steps as for most of the operations it was my very first attempt at doing so.

so these photos show the two halfs of the base mold.












as can be seen this poor old cope and drag has been through a lot, but it still functions just fine.
 next is the first of two bearing cap blocks, i made the cope and drag using the hinge as it makes things a bit quicker but does limit what can be used in it for the patterns.













so this is the stage im up too in machining the base, as you can see ive made a few boo boos here and there but its will still function fine and im sure ill be able to hide them away just fine later on.




the bearing caps and bearings. ill probably have to make the bearings again as the surface finish on the bearing surfaces are less then optimal but theyll work for now.




next is the crack shaft, its made from 10mm drill rod(silver steel) and the webs hot rolled plate. at first id wonted to just pin it all together as i knew that the dril rod wasnt going to like being heated to high temps that would be required for silver soldering nor was the flux going to be very good for the shaft. well that plan went down the drain when the drill bit broke whilst drilling, i was doing it on the mill and just didnt have the finesse needed for the small diameter drill bit. anyway i ended up silver soldering it and much to my delight it went very smoothly without much corrosion to the shaft. 




and finally here are some shots of the previous parts assembled
















and finally one with the eccentric and a yet to be finished flywheel













mackye


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## raen09 (Jul 25, 2012)

Looking good mackye  
More progress needed before uni interferes though 

Tim


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