# ply lining garage



## chillybilly (Aug 24, 2009)

Got my workshop in a single car 18ft x8ft ,concrete sectional construction with a flat roof in the uk.

Issue over the last couple of years is condensation in the colder months of the year forming on my machines and all else as i am sure many of you know ....

My plan is to build a 2"x2" frame along the walls screwed to the floor and the roof spars then board this area with 1/2 inch ply on all 3 walls and board the cieling too ,creating a box within the outer shell with a 2" cavity .Replace the up and over door with two wooden doors so i can acess by only opening one the majorirty of the time . 
I plan to run a dehumidifier in the space through the winter to hopefully keep control of the condensation level .
Anyone got any experience of lining out ,and any advice on possible suitable insulation materials greatly appreciated .

Need to get it right as once i start the shop will be dismantled to do the job and i dont think i can live without my" little area of the world " :-\


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## bearcar1 (Aug 24, 2009)

CB, hello. In regards to your project, if your budget allows, I would suggest insulating that 2" cavity with either fiberglass bunting or the expanded foamboard to help in keeping the temperature(s) at a more controllable range. Eliminating as many air drafts that you possibly can will effect your final outcome as well. Good luck with your project.

Regards

BC1
Jim


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree with Jim. When you are dealing with dewpoint, you have to deal with both temperature and humidity. Since you have a small area, the cost of insulation and vapor barrier is not huge. Your dehumidifier should keep the moisture level down and a small amount of dry heat would help a lot.

You might be able to save some money on the paneling by using one of the composite boards instead of plywood. I lined my garage with OSB (oriented strand board) at one third the cost of plywood. When painted, it looks just as good and is just as durable. I would also consider using foam board stuck to the concrete and then using 1" strapping nailed through to the concrete. You don't need any structural strength, just something to fasten the panel too. You also have to put a poly vapor barrier between the insulation and the paneling.


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## chillybilly (Aug 25, 2009)

vapour board ???is that the heavy gauge polly sheet used in building ??? reason for the wood frame is i can neither stick onto or drill the concrete sections they dont take to well to that it seems ,30 years old mind !!!!
Would polystyrene sheet suffice as insulation do you think???
thanks for advice people ..  More planning rerquired me thinks :


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## bearcar1 (Aug 25, 2009)

Bill, how were you planning to attach the 2x2 strips to the existing walls? You could still do that and merely press fit panels of the styrene board (the pink or blue foam board used in construction) that has been cut to width with a razor knife in between the studding. Over this you could "wallpaper" a layer of plastic painters drop cloth (the heaviest you can find) they are not that expensive. Over this place the paneling of your choice and apply a coat of light colored paint (optional). The first question is, how are you going to secure the studs in the first place? 

This method is not 'by the book' so to speak due to the placement of the vapor barrier but I used this method in my basement and have not had any problems in 25yrs. A little bit of insulation and the sealing off of air drafts will go a long way in helping to keep the moisture problems down. Even a couple of light bulbs to generate a bit of heat will also go a long way in keeping the condensation to a minimum but you have to in essence, seal the room as best you can first. What type of floor is in the structure? Moisture will come up through the slab as well, perhaps you could consider putting down a vapor barrier on it as well,(a floor similar in construction as the walls only not as thick) or paint it with epoxy paint. All of this sounds overwhelming at first but it really isn't, it is just trying to balance the logistics with the expense that is the hardest part.

BC1
Jim


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## abby (Aug 25, 2009)

B&Q supply 25 mm thick jabolite at about £1.50 for a 1200x400 mm sized sheet, you can simply glue it to the walls and ceiling , dead easy job if you dont want to put shelves or cupboards up , otherwise you will need batons.If you can keep the workshop at a constant temperature you won't get so much condensation , with good insulation,power for power a small oil filled heater will probably do more than a de-humidifier. Don't forget the floor , simple duck boards will stop the cold seeping into you feet.


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## CrewCab (Aug 25, 2009)

CB, I did a similar thing to my shop, which is 2/3 of a 20' x 10' brick garage .......... the other 1/3 is the utility room :

I used Kingspan (Wickes do a similar product, which is cheaper, but look at I would look at the comparative insulation values first) ...... anyway ........ 

Floor - 4" x 2" with 80mm insulation between and 18mm V313 chipboard over
Ceiling - 80mm Insulation between existing joists with plasterboard under
Walls - 30mm insulation with 10mm OSB board over, drill and plug straight through to Masonry, use screws with a fairly big head (No:12's) - benches / shelves are fixed to bearers drilled and plugged thro' the lot to the masonry, all cables are surface fixed in plastic conduit, if you need to screw something to the wall .............. just do it ......... 

Worked for me and it's a bloomin lot warmer 8)

hth

CC


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## rickharris (Aug 25, 2009)

If you use expanded foam then I would go to a builders merchant - they will be much cheaper if you are buying any amount. 50 mm thick is the normal thickness. We used to buy for school in 4 foot by 2 foot 6 bat packs at £21 each. Cut it on the band saw if you have one poly urethane will cut cleanly with little or no crumb. We would often cut as thin as 1 mm to make aeroplanes.

Same with Timber - ply wood in particular - your local timber merchant will have construction ply at fare less than DIY stores. With regular batons I would think you would get away with 9 mm thick.

Stirling board is about as cheap and stable as you can get. The modern fast grab adhesives you get in a cartridge are very good. If the concrete isn't playing ball try sealing the surface with PVA thinned 10:1 with water 1 PVA to 10 water than glue.

Even the batons can be glued onto the wall. Failing that hire a nail gun.

Eco friendly processed newspaper and sheep wool are also available - a bit more messy but they do work.


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## chillybilly (Aug 25, 2009)

wow than :big:thankk fellas ,it seems i am not alone 

the plan is to build the frame screwed into the floor and onto the roof support timbers(flat roof affair ).Then vertical timbers between fllor and roof timbers to which will be fastened the board ,long winded possibly but years ago i established that the walls are only good for being walls ,so i acid cleaned them pva sealed then masonary painted on them white .they refuse to even accept posters !!!All my shelves have been installed between floor and cieling and have benn cool for 8 or more years .

Will certainly use some poly sheet in the cavity with whichever insulation is used ,poly board type stuff seems the way to go ,expanding foam can be a little exciting :big:

As to the floor solid concrete raft i am afraid sealed as per the walls years ago and has high density foam with carpet ontop .would like to lift it but i have my track bike in there on the ramp in a constant state of disassembly it seems ! and the lift in floor levels would give me height issues .The carpet and stuff helps loads .

De humidifiers are in my line of work so i plan to get a broken one sort it out and use it on a timer with a humidistat and benefit as much as i can from the condensors heat output by putting a pressure switch in to control the fans a little more ,should get about 5 oc out of that ,warm "dry " air hopefully .

Came across a freezer coldroom at work and nearly bought that home and make it fit within the garage but it wasnt happening ,would have all ended in a mess :

Gonna have to pull in a favour from a weight training mate to come and help me move the machines too .thanks for all the advice i think i have some pricing up to go and do ;D


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## Stan (Aug 26, 2009)

One last comment: It is important that the poly go on the warm side of the insulation.ie between the insulation and the finish wall material.


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## chillybilly (Aug 26, 2009)

cheers stan ,do you think poly sheet on bothe sides of the insulation medium might be of benefit or quite the opposite???


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## CrewCab (Aug 26, 2009)

Chaps .........  ............ I have to disagree here I'm afraid 

Condensation will form wherever the warm air from inside hits the colder outside air, if you put polythene sheet in the way then it will halt the condensation dead, subsequently it will run down the sheet and collect at floor level ........ or elsewhere if there is something in the way ......... like screws ???

What you need to put in the sandwich is a *"vapour barrier"*, lets vapour pass to the outside but prevents moisture ingress. 

*As an example*

CC


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## RobWilson (Aug 26, 2009)

I disagree to ;D
The workshop i built at the end of my garage to my casting,welding in 12' x 10' is built from concrete sections and dose no suffer from condensation,
the reason you get condensation in small workshops is,it gets cold at night , sun warms up workshop air quickly due to thin roof ,door, machinery stops cold, wet machines.
So my roof has 6" of insulation,insulated doors and vents at the highest point in wall and gap at the bottom of door , so as the air heats up it can escape and let the workshop warm up slowly.
I have no insulation on the walls. in the winter i warm up the workshop slowly

Regards Rob


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## Stan (Aug 26, 2009)

Putting poly on both sides of the insulation is bad news. It will trap moisture in the insulation and reduce it's insulation value.

The site posted by Crewcab is very good. Visqueen is just a brand name for low density polyethylene (commonly called poly). Our building code in Canada calls for 6 mil poly vapor barrier with the joints taped. If you look up all the specs from Visqueen you will probably find that their lower rated material is just thinner. The Visqueen site is quite explicit in several places pointing out that the poly has to be on the warm side of the insulation. 

If you want to block air movement but not moisture, you can use Tyvek (a Dupont brand name). All new houses in Canada have this material over the outside of the wall sheeting, under the final siding. Its purpose is to stop the wind but allow any moisture trapped in the wall to escape.

I said my previous post was my last comment, so this is probably a lot more than what you wanted to know.


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## chillybilly (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks alot fellas ,think in eed a little more thought ,dont want to spend the money /time and not cure my problem .Drawing board out .....


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## CrewCab (Aug 27, 2009)

Rob's made a valid point which I missed, ventilation is also key to avoiding condensation ............ and when I say condensation, your unlikely to see running water ............ it's most likely a tiny amount but, over the years if it's trapped in an unventilated area it can rot the timbers .......... hth

Dave


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## Stan (Aug 27, 2009)

Condensation is a function of dewpoint.
 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

My comments on this thread has been on the method used to keep temperature above the dewpoint (most easily done with insulation and a small amount of dry heat). If you want to increase ventilation into the room, that creates a whole different set of requirements. The most common involves the introduction of an air exchanger on the incoming air that controls the humidity and temperature of the air going into the room. The air exchanger uses the exhausted air to warm the incoming air while adding or removing moisture as required by the room humidistat.


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## chillybilly (Aug 27, 2009)

Sounds like the day job stanLOL

Thanks for your help with this much appreciated ,i am currently reviewing the plans .need to avois creating a void in the construction giving insects paticularly wasps to move in and set up home ,oh the joys :big:


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## The Artful Bodger (Aug 27, 2009)

I would hate to loose 4" or more from my garage space by adding internal insulation. Is it possible to put 2" battens on the outside and then siding?


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## Stan (Aug 27, 2009)

If you look at my signature line, you will see that I live a longs ways North in Western Canada. Our temperatures range between +32°C and -40°C and humidity ranges between 20% and 100%. I just turned the air conditioner on to cool the house before bedtime but I will turn the thermostat to heat when I go to bed and the furnace will be running when I get up (about 9°C outside). I built one house for myself and helped on a couple for friends. Insulation, vapor barriers and wind barriers are a fact of life here. As energy prices go up, so does the amount of insulation you put in the attic.


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## The Artful Bodger (Aug 27, 2009)

Stan  said:
			
		

> Condensation is a function of dewpoint.



This is true Stan but for condensation to deposit moisture there must be a surface that is below the dew point, except of course where the humidity is 100% and you have fog indoors!

It is my belief that putting insulation outside of a concrete, brick or other 'massive' structure would use the thermal mass of the walls to stabilise the internal temperature and I believe this is being done in some new buildings around here (latitude 41S) where we have very cold, very strong, onshore winds.


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## Stan (Aug 28, 2009)

The Artfull Bodger: Very true. Insulation on either side of the wall is an improvement. Putting it on the outside of masonry walls requires all the interior heat be provided from the inside as the masonry no longer absorbs much heat from the sun. At the same time, it reduces heat soak and will reduce air conditioning cost on a hot day. There are a lot of calculations to determine the most economical or now, the greenest. On a small backyard shed there are also zoning laws, building code and extra cost involved.

For anyone interested in how effective insulation is: My garage is 24' x 24' x 8'. It has R13 fiberglass batts in the walls and R20 fiberglass batts in the ceiling with a 16' wide insulated metal door. Last winter, if I drove my warm car into the garage and closed the door, twelve hours later the indoor temperature was 25°C warmer than outside temperature just from the heat radiating of the engine.


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