# New Mill



## black85vette (Nov 13, 2009)

woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1

I was planning on asking for a mill for Christmas, but spotted one on eBay and decided to act on it. Found an X2 for $350 including the shipping. Looks like it is in OK shape. Talked to the seller on the phone and was able to ask some questions before deciding. Figuring I can't get hurt too bad at that price. Plus that lets me go ahead and budget for a rotary table and the belt conversion now.

I have been going back and forth between the X2 or going bigger and heavier but finally decided to go smaller for now since space is limited.


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## cfellows (Nov 13, 2009)

So you're the lucky devil that got that! I've had an automatic search on EBay for something like that for months. I saw it in my email this morning, but the it had already sold when I went to look at it.

Congratulations on your win. Looks like you got a great buy!

Chuck


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## black85vette (Nov 13, 2009)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> So you're the lucky devil that got that! I've had an automatic search on EBay for something like that for months. I saw it in my email this morning, but the it had already sold when I went to look at it. Chuck




Opps. Sorry!

I had been searching ebay and craigslist for some time. I didn't have an automatic search but just happened to be doing a search and this one popped up.  I knew it would not last long. Ended up buying it within hours of it being posted. Even violated one of my own rules when I did it first and then told my wife. :hDe:


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## Troutsqueezer (Nov 13, 2009)

You're going to like it a lot and you don't even have to clean all the red shipping grease off it. After 4 months I'm still finding places on mine where there are gobs of red grease. 

Being a novice, I had no idea that I would be spending more on the tooling for this than I spent on the machine itself. A rotary table is up next for me too. They are kind of expensive. I'm wondering how good that HF 4" RT is, the one that sells for about 100 bucks. I'm sure its not as good as those sold at LMS. 

I lucked out when buying my milling machine from HF. Since it was a special order, I had to wait a couple of weeks. When it came in, they sold it to someone who just walked in the door and asked for one. I was not happy about that and complained to the mgr. When another arrived a week later they refunded me 30% off the original price so I would be happy. I was. $560-$168=$392.

-T


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## black85vette (Nov 13, 2009)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> When another arrived a week later they refunded me 30% off the original price so I would be happy. I was. $560-$168=$392.



SWEET deal! Thm:


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## cfellows (Nov 13, 2009)

black85vette  said:
			
		

> Opps. Sorry!
> 
> I had been searching ebay and craigslist for some time. I didn't have an automatic search but just happened to be doing a search and this one popped up. I knew it would not last long. Ended up buying it within hours of it being posted. Even violated one of my own rules when I did it first and then told my wife. :hDe:



No Problem... I aready have a large mill/drill and was kind of looking for a Sieg X1. Now I've switched gears and am looking for a good price on a 7 x 12 minilathe...

Chuck


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## black85vette (Nov 21, 2009)

Mill got here last night. Had to go out and get it unpacked and set on the bench. Holy cow!  This thing was filthy. Looks to have been used in an automotive shop. Covered in grease and oil. Got it cleaned up some and then started checking it out. Holy cow!   Don't know how they even used it. The gibbs were so far out of adjustment that the whole table pivoted and the bottom gib had slid out of position and was binding pretty bad.  Tore it down cleaned up everything with a file, smoothed out the ways and gibs. Put it all back together and adjusted it and it is now smooth and tight. Hmmmmm, come to think of it this is just like setting up a NEW one.  :big:

Now out to make some chips today.


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## deere_x475guy (Nov 21, 2009)

Hey congrats blackvette...when are we going to see some pics?..


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## CMS (Nov 22, 2009)

Yea!!! What he said!!! Lets see what ya have to hide!!!


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## black85vette (Nov 22, 2009)

OK. But it is pretty much a generic X2. Here it is after some cleanup. Mounted my vise on it and made a few test cuts. Everything is good so far.


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## cfellows (Nov 22, 2009)

May be generic, but that was still a nice catch!

Chuck


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## ksouers (Nov 22, 2009)

Yep, that's an X2, all right ;D

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Did it come with any tooling?


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## black85vette (Nov 22, 2009)

No tooling but I already had end mills and a vise. Just had to get a couple of R8 holders.


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## Deanofid (Nov 22, 2009)

Congratulations, Vette!
Doesn't matter if it's like others of the same make. This one's yours!
Neat.

Dean


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## woodknack (Nov 22, 2009)

Thats the same one my dad has That i use. Id like to get him auto feed for it and belt drive. I already broke one set of gears.. ;D


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 22, 2009)

Looks just like mine with minor differences. Crankwheels for one. I suspect the cap on the motor actually belongs in front of the motor...on the spindle?

Takes a little bit to get it adjusted...there's some great threads here on that.

I've enjoyed it a lot. I'd like to trade up from my mini-lathe someday but have had no thoughts of doing that with the mini-mill. Not that it doesn't have it's problems...still.


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## black85vette (Nov 22, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Looks just like mine with minor differences. Crankwheels for one. I suspect the cap on the motor actually belongs in front of the motor...on the spindle?
> 
> Takes a little bit to get it adjusted...there's some great threads here on that.
> 
> I've enjoyed it a lot. I'd like to trade up from my mini-lathe someday but have had no thoughts of doing that with the mini-mill. Not that it doesn't have it's problems...still.



Zee; one of the factors that influenced my decision was how many of these were used by members here. Having that kind of first hand knowledge available is a big deal. Yes the cap should be over the spindle. The crank wheel on the end of the table has a different handle because the original got bent in shipment.  I made a longer one out of aluminum. (nice having a lathe isn't it?) I plan to do the modification to stiffen the upright piece, maybe the airspring, and sometime add the DROs.  All in good time and not all at once.

What do you find to be a problem on the mill?  I have already done the initial set up adjustments. Might need some fine tuning.  For now it is just getting to know what it will do and how hard it can be pushed.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 22, 2009)

Keep in mind I'm very much a newbie to machining in the first place and I'm still learning how to use the mill.

My biggest problem has been in moving the head up and down. Still figuring out backlash. The head has a tendency to drop.

This Christmas I hope to tear the machine down for cleaning and adjustment. When the Y is not locked down and I crank in X...the table rotates back and forth as I turn the wheel. I don't mean it rotates in one direction when I crank in -X and in the other direction when I crank in +X. But pressure on the crank wheel goes +/-Y. I think the issue is the nut that the lead screw goes through. I haven't figured out how to adjust that. [EDIT: Is probably the gibs. But the nut needs work too.]

I've not confirmed with my mill...but there have been a couple of threads on how well the head moves squarely up and down. Not just a matter of tram. The problem seems that the head moves left and right as it moves up and down.

Lately though it seems that I'm getting better at 'knowing' the machine.

The only other thing I can think of (for now) is that sometimes I need more Z room. Especially if I want to drill and then ream. There's no room for the bigger reamers. At some point I'll have to chop them down.

Overall though...as nothing more than hobbyist...I'm pretty happy with it. It seems like I'd have to expend quite a bit more to get something better...that day may come...but as an intro...it's been great.


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## lathe nut (Nov 22, 2009)

I got one form Harbor Freight, got them down to 250.00 It was clean not grease only a slight bit of oil, was not like the 7X10 that I got years ago, must have been a quart of grease on it, I have not used the mill yet took it apart, adjusted and oiled, did get a light a HF today, think someone has posted here about one, its neat and will fit great around the spindle, looking forward to get some tips on them, Lathe Nut


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## black85vette (Nov 22, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> My biggest problem has been in moving the head up and down. Still figuring out backlash. The head has a tendency to drop.



I did notice the head drop down some but just locked it anytime I was cutting and it seemed to be OK with that. I did have some trouble with a plunge cut. When coming straight down into the work piece it started jumping and chattering. Did that even with the X and Y locked. Not sure what is up with that. I will have to try it again.



> I've not confirmed with my mill...but there have been a couple of threads on how well the head moves squarely up and down. Not just a matter of tram.



I followed a couple of those threads and plan on doing the entire alignment on it soon.



> It seems like I'd have to expend quite a bit more to get something better...that day may come...but as an intro...



Yes indeed. I have always been willing to jump in at a lower cost and go from there. Some interests did not go very far and I was happy not to have over-spent up front.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 22, 2009)

black85vette  said:
			
		

> I did notice the head drop down some but just locked it anytime I was cutting and it seemed to be OK with that. I did have some trouble with a plunge cut. When coming straight down into the work piece it started jumping and chattering. Did that even with the X and Y locked. Not sure what is up with that. I will have to try it again.



No...I was referring to moving the head to get to a Z before locking. Using the fine wheel was tricky for me. When I thought it moved...it hadn't...and when I thought it moved a little it had moved a lot. I'm dying to put DROs on.

As for plunge cutting...I haven't had too much problem except with brass. Really tries to pull the head down. There's been a thread or two on that as well...in particular the kind of end mill or drill bit to use.

That reminds me...when edge milling (particularly climb milling) I can feel the table being pulled into the cutter. But I have a ways to go in learning about feeds and speeds too.


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## black85vette (Nov 22, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Using the fine wheel was tricky for me. When I thought it moved...it hadn't...and when I thought it moved a little it had moved a lot. I'm dying to put DROs on.



Yes, I am thinking a DRO for the Z axis is not far off.  I also wonder if the air spring conversion helps with this since it would tend to pull the backlash out (I think).

[/quote]
That reminds me...when edge milling (particularly climb milling) I can feel the table being pulled into the cutter. But I have a ways to go in learning about feeds and speeds too.
[/quote]

I use climb milling very sparingly because of backlash. When I do use it I only take off a thou or two for a finish cut. That is not just with this mill but the Bridgeport I learned on and the Enco knee mill at my friend's shop.


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## Troutsqueezer (Nov 23, 2009)

The head likes to drop down for sure, especially for the first or second fine adjustment I make after beginning a facing process. I take my D.I., mounted on the magnetic base, place it on the bench next to the mill table and point it straight up into the bottom of the head. Each time I unlock the Z axis I watch the D.I. to monitor the drop. 

Someday I'll go for a DRO but there are other things I need first, like a rotary table.

-T


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 23, 2009)

GUys the Z axis is tweaky on the x-2. Similar to TS I put a DI on the mill dovetail usually above the head. Many of my adjustments for depth of cut especially on fly cutting is just unlock the head and re lock it that is usually good for a few thousandths. I can not trust the numbers on the down feed knob either. 
Yes a dro would be great. 
I need to finish my cnc build it is 95 % done 
Tin


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## black85vette (Nov 23, 2009)

Trout and Tin;

Thanks for the tips. That is a quick and easy fix. I think HF has the magnet DI in stock.


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## ksouers (Nov 23, 2009)

My observations on the X2.

I bought my X2 from Harbor Freight in late 2003, so I've had a couple years to fiddle with it.

Don't trust the handwheel markings. I used a DI to measure all movements for years and finally fitted a DRO last year.

Check the tram regularly. It gets out of whack easily. I don't know how quickly the spindle gets out of line with the Z dovetail, but it does happen.

Check and adjust the gibs regularly. It doesn't take much at all to cause big results in the table. It's a very fine line between "almost there" to locked up tight. The table will be somewhat stiff to move when adjusted properly.

The thrust bearing on the X axis works loose and needs to be pressed back. This affects the X-axis backlash. Avoid climb milling, the machine really doesn't like it. The Y-axis doesn't have this problem.

Try shimming the Z-axis "fine tuning" block (the handwheel) out away from the head. A couple pieces of aluminum foil worked wonders for me, took some of the stiffness out and reduces backlash a little. Much less force is needed to raise and lower the head. The universal joint between the handwheel and the rack pinion is pretty sloppy. I'm thinking of replacing it with a straight solid rod.

The Big Nut: When you tighten up after tramming it will throw the tram out. You will have to "over tram" a bit to compensate. This is one of those "get a feel for" things you will learn as you get to know the machine. You may have to adjust several times to get it right.
With practice you'll be able to get it dead nuts when it's tightened up.

If possible, upgrade the locking levers. The OEM ones wear out quickly.

Make a Zero-It clone, it's good practice and you'll have a very useful tool for tramming and centering when done.


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## gunboatbay (Nov 23, 2009)

A very common complaint by X2 owners is the inability to make accurate Z axis adjustments because of backlash, etc. DRO installation can be quite expensive. An easy and less costly solution is to mount an inexpensive dial indicator upside down on a small fabricated block of aluminum, bolted to the movable head-stop that is on the column. Move the mill head down 'til the cutter just touchs the workpiece, lock it, then move the head-stop up to zero the DI. Then future adjustments accommodate any backlash and you always accurately know where your cutter is (heighth-wise) in relation to the workpiece. Sorry I don't have any photo's, I recently sold my X2.
Zeeprogrammer, you were lamenting on the amount of Z axis travel. Depending on the particular brand of X2, there are two different lengths of the rack gear on these machines. Make sure you have the long one. If you don't, the long one is available from LMS.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 23, 2009)

Great tips ksouers. Very helpful.

Thanks gunboatbay. I have the Z extension/spring load mod kit. I hope to do that over the holidays.

As for going out of tram...I've often wondered what the effect is on wrenching the draw bar in the spindle. I would think it make a difference to put force in Y rather than X?


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## black85vette (Nov 23, 2009)

Well I think I have the Z axis (or is it the Zee axis??? :big measurement figured out on the cheap. Down to Habor Freight to pick up another dial indicator for $10.  Took some scrap aluminum and milled out a pocket for two .708 diameter rare earth magnets. Epoxied them in and attached the DI.  You can mount it anywhere on the right side of the upright post that suits you. The DI is up and away from the flying chips and in an easy to read spot. See what you think.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 23, 2009)

Looks great to me. I'm looking to make improvements over the holiday so this helps.

And no...not a Zee axis. Don't do that...I know how names can stick...just ask 'Idjit' ;D


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## rake60 (Nov 23, 2009)

black85vette, your X2 looks to be the Harbor Freight version that is sold under the
trade name "Central Machinery". My own X2 was a step down from that on the 
scale of being "generic". I bought mine from a Cummin's Tool, traveling truck sale.  

Best thing about the X2 is there are many inexpensive modifications available for it.
You WILL break at least one of the plastic drive gears in time. The intermediate gear
is a weak point in the drive. Last time one out of my X2 looked like this.




I replace that once at a parts cost of $4.75 The next time I broke it the
gear box was gutted and replaced with the belt drive conversion from *LMS*.
A picture of my X2 with the belt drive installed.




The next issue for me was the inconsistent pressure of that torsion spring on the head.
The air spring mod was another quick, easy and cheap fix from *LMS*.
It give you a constant 35 pounds of force that is much more predictable than the "light at the top
tight at the bottom" torsion spring.
Another picture of my own X2 showing that mod installed.





It is a capable little mini mill that is easy to use and inexpensive to improve.
I have pushed mine to it's limits a few times and it let me know that was pushing
too hard. A Bridgeport Mill simply doesn't fit my hobby budget *OR* hobby shop space.
I am perfectly happy with the performance of my little, generic X2.

Rick


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## Troutsqueezer (Nov 23, 2009)

I like the idea of the D.I. with the magnets. I'll have to make one over the holidays as well.

I've got the screen capture for the belt drive system stored in my "To Buy" file in OneNote. There are so many things to buy (and build) it's hard to prioritize. I figure I'll wait until I break that plastic gear once or twice before spending $130 or so for the mod. 

black85vette, you may have heard what others have stated, that it's not_ if_ the plastic gear breaks but _when_ it breaks. One common cause of breakage is when you forget to take the locking pin out of the spindle before powering up the mill. I've been lucky so far and haven't forgotten. I did stall the mill a couple of times, once when I forgot to lock the Z axis and the head dropped mid-cut and once when I fed too fast and too deep. I figured the gear might break both times but was lucky then as well.


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## black85vette (Nov 24, 2009)

Rick;

Thanks for the photo tour of your mill. Both of those mods are on my to do list. Glad to hear the good reports on them. Right now the belt kit is out of stock with the company that makes them and LMS. Guess I better get a spare gear in stock.

Trout;

Maybe I need to attach a "Remove before flight" flag to the pin. If you have not seen them they are long narrow red banners attached to pins that lock landing gear and other moving parts while on the ground. You CAN"T miss them.  As an added check the ground crew knows how many there are and hold them up to show the pilot and give him a count of them as a verification.

EDIT: Resolved the issue with the plunge cut. No issue with the mill. It was operator error.  I picked up the wrong end mill.  Used the correct one and it works just fine. :wall:


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 24, 2009)

I use one of these 






BV good idea like this one




Tin


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## black85vette (Nov 24, 2009)

Tin;

Dang it!!! The story of my life. I think up a cool product only to find someone else already making it. 

Yep. Flags just like that. Not only used them on real aircraft but I flew RC gliders and rather than a switch we had a pin to insert and turn OFF the radio. Then had a long streamer attached to the pin. While you might forget to turn on a switch you did not forget to pull the pin with the flag on it. 

So does anybody make a "Remove before starting the spindle motor" flag? Maybe this is my new product.


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## gunboatbay (Nov 25, 2009)

There's two different, relatively easy to make solutions, to the problem of forgetting to pull the spindle lock-pin before starting the mill. The first is published by LMS:


View attachment spindle lock pin.pdf


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## gunboatbay (Nov 25, 2009)

The second solution, which is the one I made for my mill, is better because once it's made and installed, you don't have to worry about finding the lock-pin each time. I downloaded the plans for this a few years ago and don't remember from where:


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## black85vette (Nov 25, 2009)

gunboatbay; I like the basic idea of the one you put on your mill. I might make something like that but incorporate a retraction spring into it. Thanks.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm going to have to do something about the pin too. Twice now I've turned the mill on with the pin in place. I've been lucky...both times I was turning it on at a slow spindle speed. It's now on my in-between project list.

Just reviewed the list...I won't be starting another project for while.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 25, 2009)

I remember seeing a spring loaded lock pin mod that was built in but cant remember where. I think minimill.com but did not see it it may have been moved to the premium content section not sure.
Tin


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## vlmarshall (Nov 25, 2009)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> I remember seeing a spring loaded lock pin mod that was built in but cant remember where. I think minimill.com but did not see it it may have been moved to the premium content section not sure.
> Tin



Like this? http://www.bedair.org/MiniMill/spindlelock.html

Or this one? http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/sp_lock/sp_lock.htm

I don't know what the lock pin looks like on your mills. ;D


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## black85vette (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks Vernon. I checked those links out and I think I now know what I want to do. If it works out it will be extremely simple. (and quick)

I do have another question about this mill. How tight does an R8 collet need to be tightened? My experience with milling on my lathe was with an MT3 collet to hold the end mill and I cranked the draw bar pretty tight because there was a direct relationship between the draw bar and how tight the end mill was held. On the R8 however there is no relationship. The end mill is held in place by a set screw. Also the R8 is not dependent on friction to turn the collet since it has a groove with a pin that rides in it. So I have been tightening it just "hand tight" with an open end wrench. Sure makes it easy to get loose and remove the collet. But I was wondering if this is tight enough. Seems to cut OK like this. I did some 20 thou cuts in mild steel with no problem.

2nd question; does the belt drive conversion still have the hole for the spindle lock?


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## Troutsqueezer (Nov 26, 2009)

I read somewhere that it only needs to be snug. Since then I've eased up on the wrench considerably. Haven't any problems with it and now it only takes a slight tap with the rubber mallet to get it to drop loose when I am removing it. I've also read that its better if you can avoid having to strike the draw pin too hard to loosen it. Something about not knocking the daylights out of the bearing any more than is necessary.


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## black85vette (Nov 26, 2009)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that it only needs to be snug. Since then I've eased up on the wrench considerably. Haven't any problems with it and now it only takes a slight tap with the rubber mallet to get it to drop loose when I am removing it. I've also read that its better if you can avoid having to strike the draw pin too hard to loosen it. Something about not knocking the daylights out of the bearing any more than is necessary.



That is sort of what I was thinking, but I thought I would ask rather than assume.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 26, 2009)

I second the snug up on the draw bar. 
as far as the second question . I assume you are refurring to the Stirling Steele design from LMS. Yes it has the tommy bar hole.
Tin


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## spuddevans (Nov 26, 2009)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> I remember seeing a spring loaded lock pin mod that was built in but cant remember where. I think minimill.com but did not see it it may have been moved to the premium content section not sure.
> Tin



I dont know if this will help, but I made my own X2 belt drive conversion and included a sprung spindle locking pin. (you try saying that 3 times quickly :big: ) 

I did a build log of it from start to finish, but the spring loaded pin part is here.


Tim


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