# how do you start a project



## artrans (Dec 22, 2008)

I was thinking over the weekend and going over some plans and want to build a couple of things. And in looking over differant plans at times it seems over whelming and was wonding the way some of you go about starting a project. So one lets assume we have the matrial
on hand.do you make one piece at a time. Or do you rough out many pieces. do you start
with the harder pieces first. I am used to build r/c planes and those plans have steps 1-what ever and at the end your finished. very interested in how some of you guys go about starting
a project thank you


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## mklotz (Dec 22, 2008)

Art,

You start by thinking through the entire fabrication process. If there's any complexity to the item you're making, you should put together a (written) fab process sheet. It will describe not only the order in which the parts are made, but also the tools used to perform each operation on the part and the order in which those operations are performed. If you have a "steel trap" type mind, you can do all this in your head but, until you've got a few projects under your belt, I strongly advise writing it all out.

In a production environment everything is made to tolerances established such that the finished parts will assemble correctly into the final product. In the home shop, it's more typical to make parts to fit their mating part. An oft-mentioned example of this is boring the cylinder to (nominal) size and then making the piston to fit the resulting bore, whatever size it turns out to be. Thus you need to make the cylinder before you make the piston.

Another thing to consider, particularly if working with castings, is the need to establish reference surfaces from which to measure and to guide the making of parts that relate to the part being machined.

You also need to think about how you will hold certain parts. Careful consideration of the manufacturing sequence will help you avoid clamping on already machined threads or being forced to make fixtures to machine that last detail.

There is no cut-and-dried, one-size-fits-all answer to your question. Each job has its own peculiarities and needs to be fully thought through before making the first cut. Planning exactly how you will proceed is arguably the most difficult task in making something but it's certainly the most useful thing you can do, especially so if you're new to the machining venue. If you watch experienced machinists, you may not think they're doing this but that's only because they've internalized the sequence by dint of their experience.


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## shred (Dec 22, 2008)

Marv's advice is spot-on as usual. 

With all else equal, I like the 'make the hardest part first' method for little engines that Rake60 posted long ago. You're most fired up about the project, don't have a lot of get-it-done-now-ness that comes along at the end, and once you get that part under your belt, it's all downhill.. in theory 

I also try to plan for parts and tools on-hand since I mostly mail-order them, though sometimes I don't-- In fact I'm anxiously awaiting some funny (to me) metric taps to finish the Loco project. Should have ordered them months ago, but I thought I had them covered.


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## tel (Dec 22, 2008)

Personally, I like to start from the ground up - ie base, frames etc etc. This gives us something to hang the various bits on as they are made. Usually, the last part I make is the flywheel.


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## kf2qd (Dec 22, 2008)

Generally by making mistakes...


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## rake60 (Dec 22, 2008)

When I start a new project, I look for the part that appears to be the most
complex and difficult to make. That will be the first part machined.
If a cam or unusual cylinder would happen to be beyond my personal skill,
a batch of easily made columns, frames and shafts are pretty much useless.

Rick


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## SignalFailure (Dec 22, 2008)

If you do what Marv suggests and also include some dimensions etc you might avoid a nasty surprise later on. I recently started a project in the same way as Tel... made the base, standards, bearings, cylinder supports, cylinder block; then found out that the cylinder block (made as per the plans) was too small to accomodate the holes for the supports. Grrrrrr! It's a sad fact that lots of plans, even those you might pay good money for, have errors.


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 22, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> When I start a new project, I look for the part that appears to be the most
> complex and difficult to make. That will be the first part machined.
> If a cam or unusual cylinder would happen to be beyond my personal skill,
> a batch of easily made columns, frames and shafts are pretty much useless.
> ...



I'm with Rick. Even if there is a part that requires alot of work, doese'nt have to be that hard, I usually try to get them out of the way first.


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## Mainer (Dec 22, 2008)

For a part, think through the required sequence of operations, so you don't end up with the part halfway machined and no way to hold onto it.

Also, I find it useful to re-draw the part using a CAD program. That helps me visualize the part better, and it gives me a chance to add helpful dimensions that may not be on the original drawing.


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## Kludge (Dec 22, 2008)

Pretty much what's been said is good advice. The only thing I'd add is that using a build order that allows one to correct minor problems as they crop up was quite helpful to me when I was building before. (The name "Kludge" was well earned. ;D) 

What Paul said about plans is true. If the numbers and/or proportions don't seem to add up right, double or triple check because they probably don't. Marv's running (or maybe walking very quickly ) advice about keeping a calculator at hand in the shop is excellent, and this is one reason why. Plans lie. 

Simple, isn't it. 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## joeby (Dec 22, 2008)

Starting a project isn't the hard part for me, I don't seem to know how to finish one!

Kevin


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## lathe nut (Dec 22, 2008)

my first thing is to see if I have enough stuff to do the project with that said, I get my metal at a scrap place, then they are not the right size to whittling I go, got a few small things done and will post a pic of one of them, but what really helps me is to these fellows and Paula post the pictures of how they hold the parts to cut them, that is where I am in need of help, so let's watch the masters and do what they do, what a well spring of wisdom we have here, Lath Nut


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 22, 2008)

Very interesting topic, and a lot of good answers so far. Of course, everybody does it a little differently. I do it this way. First of all, something has to get me started thinking about a new project. Many times, the new project will arise from a need which is recognized from a previous project. --A good example, ---I was always fascinated by steam engines, but only in the last year have I actually started building them. The first two I built were other peoples designs, without any real modification, just to get some experience using a lathe and a mill. The third was based on someone eldes design, but modified--(the beam engine.) The fourth was my twin cylinder horizontal, which was my own design. The need to control the speed at which it ran lead me into the flyball governor project---and that lead me into the Varying load machine which I am currently building. Firstly, I research as much as I can to see what other people have done. This is generally now done by direct internet search---I used to go to the library to research new projects. Then I have to consider if I am technically capable of the new project. I can do a lot of things, but there are many things that I either don't know how to do, don't have the machinery to do, or can't afford to do!!! And then I make a rough sketch--If you read my posts, you have probably seen some of them. Then I set down at my CAD station, and make a working design. Then I create detail drawings. As many others have said, I find the most challenging part, and make it first. This serves two functions---#1-It keeps me from making a bunch of simple parts, then having to abandon the project because there is some aspect of it that I am unable to make. And, #2--Once the hardest part is out of the way, the other parts seem to go more quickly. I only work on one part at a time, and I complete it before moving on to the next part. I generally assemble the parts as I make thm, rather than making all the parts first, then beginning assembly. If it is a complex machine, made up of a number of sub-assemblies, then I try to complete all of the sub assemblies, one at a time untill they are finished. I test run each sub assembly as its own small "mini project", then set it aside untill I have parts made that assemble with it.


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## Marinesteam (Dec 22, 2008)

When I start a project, not that I have had that many, I give the prints a once over and then go through again part by part working out anything that doesn't make sense. Making notes and sketches to fill in missing or unclear information as I go along is helpful. Especially make sure that mating parts look correct (hole sizes, fits, etc..) together. Then I start picking material from the shelf and make a list of what is needed to purchase. Same goes for tooling.

Remember the 5 P's

Prior
Planning 
Prevents
Poor
Performance

I start making chips using the material and tools that I have on hand while waiting for the items than need to be ordered.

With the compound steam engine that I am starting, I plan on machining the parts to be made from bar stock before tackling the castings. There is less room for error as it's much more difficult to replace a spoiled casting than a piece of bar stock. And I also need to gain some more confidence as well.

In the end, do it in the order that you are comfortable with.

Ken


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## joeby (Dec 23, 2008)

I thought I'd throw a few comments out here; but keep in mind that when you have been making a living at machining parts it puts things in a different perspective, you don't have a choice as to what part you want to make or what to make first, for example. 

 One rule of thumb that I use is that it's easier to make a pin fit a hole than a hole to fit a pin. That will place the cylinder before the piston, the main and rod bearings before the crank, the head before the valves, etc. You can adjust for oversize bearings when you turn the crank journals, leave the piston oversize, or polish a thousandth or two off if it's too tight, that sort of thing. When you are finishing a hole, you are looking at a one-shot deal most times (ever use a .250" reamer and the hole ends up .252"?).

 I don't start a project with the idea that there are parts I can't make. Too many people out there turn out VERY nice work with minimal tools. If you have the project started, then you have the incentive to work through the difficult parts. Running into an issue with machine or tooling will happen sooner or later. Flywheels too big for your lathe? I think I would look to borrow machine time in someones shop, or have someone else turn them for me. I don't really like doing that; but if it means shelving a project, then I would certainly consider it. I don't see asking for help as a bad thing.

 Also, the starting with the "foundation" is a good idea. Much of your fitting and adjusting is going to start here, so why not eliminate having to remake a piston because you had to oversize the cylinder to clean up a bad casting, or remake the connecting rod because you got the main bearings off location?

 Sketching out the assemblies and making notes has also become an early step in the building process for me. Mistakes happen, and I've found more than a few in purchased plans, and unfortunately, my own plans.

Kevin


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## DICKEYBIRD (Dec 23, 2008)

joeby  said:
			
		

> One rule of thumb that I use is that it's easier to make a pin fit a hole than a hole to fit a pin.


So true Kevin; that one should be printed out & hanging up in everyones' shop! For me anyway, it's so much easier sneaking up on a critical dimension in the lathe than in the mill. If at all possible, I'd rather bore in the lathe than in the mill too.

Before learning that lesson, my sequence was usually a 5 step process:
(1) Make round part.
(2) Bore hole to fit.
(3) Check fit of parts.
(4) Scream bloody murder and throw round part in scrap drawer.
(5) Make round part #2 and vow never to make the same mistake again. ;D


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## lane (Dec 24, 2008)

Think the whole process through. then start with the base and build up and out . fitting each part as it is made.


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## Cedge (Dec 25, 2008)

A Cedge build begins long before the first metal is ever bought or scrounged. Lots of sketches (Crap-o-Cad V. 1.89 for Dummies) and then it all gets modeled in 3d to make sure the sketches didn't lie. Once the project is pretty solidly between my ears, I begin with the base and move to the cylinder(s) to establish a centerline elevation for the crank and support bearing locations.... etc. 

Once those points of reference are identified, the rest comes along pretty smoothly, as long as I watch the cutting order of things and make sure there are always provisions made for the vise or chucks to hold the parts. I still get boxed in from time to time, but don't we all?

Steve


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## Kludge (Dec 25, 2008)

DICKEYBIRD  said:
			
		

> Before learning that lesson, my sequence was usually a 5 step process:
> (1) Make round part.
> (2) Bore hole to fit.
> (3) Check fit of parts.
> ...



And how many times did 5 loop back to 3 again? ;D

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Dec 25, 2008)

One other thing that comes to mind is to consider where you may have to make a jig to make a part. What brought this to mind was one of Brian's builds, the 2 cylinder self starting engine that was completed in what was probably record time. He made a jig to help in building the crankshaft (or was it two jigs?) to keep everything nicely arranged and aligned and spaced and stuff. If that's the case and one can see it ahead of time, I'd be very tempted to make them first so once the build is started there don't have to be any interruptions along the line.

You may wind up making jigs that have multiple applications (even though you might not know it at the time) so making them hardy enough to last may be a cool thing to do.

Just my trade bead's worth ... 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 25, 2008)

A tip in Elmers engine book also on john-toms site is make a dimensioned sketch of each part on a 3 x 5 or 4 x 6 card. this will familiarize you with each part also you can keep the card near the machine saves time checking the print and keeps the print clean. 
Some parts can be used as a pattern to transfer hole locations to others making such a part first can save time and reduce errors. 
In general I use lanes method
Order of machining parts depends some on your preferred layout methods. If you do precision layout or use a cnc then start at the bottom and work up works great.also transfer buttons/transfer screws are good hear if you like transfer punches things can change . I guess this goes back to do you make parts to the print or to fit one another question, in the other thread. 
Tin


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## DICKEYBIRD (Dec 26, 2008)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> A tip in Elmers engine book also on john-toms site is make a dimensioned sketch of each part on a 3 x 5 or 4 x 6 card. this will familiarize you with each part also you can keep the card near the machine saves time checking the print and keeps the print clean.


That's a good tip. The card stock is stiff enough that it doesn't curl up on you, hiding a critical detail.

It also brings to mind a method I've been using lately. I draw up most everything, even the simplest repair jobs, in CAD (2D) which helps get the order of cutting in place and reduces the number of stupid errors.

I have an old PC and printer in the shop so when the time comes to make the 1st cut, I delete everything in the master drawing except for the particular item being made at the time, increase the line width of the part outline, increase the text size, change the color to red on the dimensions and blow it up to almost fill the page. When the drawing is printed up and mounted at the lathe or mill, the target sizes just jump right out at me which reduces the amount of errors made....sometimes. :


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 26, 2008)

I think the redraw helps get the part concept into the brain. and posting the drawing of the single part near the machine helps focus and is a ready reference. And this works wether done by hand or cad. 
Tin


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## compound driver 2 (Dec 26, 2008)

I dont tend to bugger about i just pick the first page of drawings and a lump of steel and start cutting.
The latest traction engine is 15 hundred weight on the wheels and the horns are 2 foot square 1/4 mild steel with 150 holes in each and 100 rivets in each. No science I just get on with it, too much planning and nothing gets done.


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## mklotz (Dec 26, 2008)

compound driver 2  said:
			
		

> No science I just get on with it, too much planning and nothing gets done.



Yes, and too little planning and you get to make parts two or three times.

Perhaps you have the experience to get away with this approach but it's irresponsible to suggest that newcomers to the hobby should adopt this "damn the torpedoes" approach.

I've had to help far too many newcomers recover from mistakes made by "just starting" to believe that this method should ever be recommended.


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## Cedge (Dec 26, 2008)

Well said Marv. Old timers tend to forget the frustration of their early days and in doing so lose patience with the new guys who struggle with sometimes simple steps. I've machined a project dozens of times in my head before putting the first tool to metal. It might take a bit of time, but it saves a lot on metal and alcohol costs.

Steve


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 26, 2008)

Hear hear Marv 
planning work holding is important . I think all of us here have fallen into well the first step is cut the metal to rough size. then you go to machine it only to realize that it is difficult if not impossible to hold in the machine . then you grab the big piece you cut the little one from do the machining on it then cut it off and the original get tossed in a box. 
Tin


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## Maryak (Dec 26, 2008)

Marv, Cedge and Tin,

Very well said. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


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## compound driver 2 (Dec 26, 2008)

If you have a set of drawings its planned out for you. Looking at the horns there are 19 bits that attach to the horn plates if I look at 19 drawings it dont take that long to see if theres a problem with any of them. 
Careful marking out is the best planning you can do, I see more stock tossed by people relying on DRO's than by those using a rule square and a scrive. As you laythe lines and marks out on the metal it should become obviouse the order to machine a part. 
Work holding is a natural development of the transition from drawing to machine. 
Id say a newcomer is more likely to be put off by the indecision of planning than the risk of loosing a bit of stock. Im not saying dont think about what your doing im saying get on with it and build the models, after all thats what its about.

Point of fact in a year i throw next to nothing away i hate wasting money. Given that a cylinder block casting is a few thousand $'s its not in my interest.


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## Cedge (Dec 26, 2008)

Compound
And how many years have you been having swarf with your cornflakes? Yes.. the drawings are the map, but if you look around you, there are new guys here still struggling to decipher the language of drawings. Yes.... you can over think a thing, but even you plan your next move before executing it. Your advantage is having years of experience to back up your choice of routes. 

Like many old hands you do things without having to think about them because you've been there before. Experience is not a just add water sort of thing. It's gained by learning to reason your way out of tight spots, no matter how elementary they might seem later.

I did high end digital graphics work for a while. I was considered one of the "old hands" in the field at the time. I had to learn that the things I did without thinking were huge mysteries to those who were trying to learn those black arts. It wasn't that they were dolts, but that they didn't have enough background to even know what questions to ask in order to illicit a usable answer. 

I finally took to watching myself while at work to spot the little things like tricks of the trade that I executed as naturally as breathing and to share those with them. Before long the newbie was on track and often teaching the master. I soon learned that I liked that part.... a lot. 

Cut the newbie a bit of slack and show him *HOW* to get to the comfort level where chucking and going are a natural thing. You certainly have the talents, but do you have the courage and patience it takes to share that knowledge?

Steve


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## Paula (Dec 26, 2008)

This thread reminds me of a plaque that an old boss of mine had on his office wall. It read:

*Planning without action is futile.
Action without planning is fatal.*

The point being, I suppose, that one needs to strive for a workable medium.

Looking back through the engines I've completed, an interesting thing I notice is that I almost always seem to make the parts in more-or-less the same order that they would be assembled. For example: 

1) Base, frame, etc.
2) Cylinder(s)
3) Crankshaft
4) Piston
5) Connecting rod
6) Cyl. head, valves
7) Eccentric, cam, timing gears, etc.
8) Carburetor (if applicable)
9) Other stuff that gets "bolted on"
10) You get the idea...

Like others have said, while I'm in the process of accumulating materials, components, and any needed tools/cutters, I'm busy studying drawings and "machining in my head". Each engine is different, and may require a unique approach or method of attack.

My next project has very scant, undetailed drawings, so it will allow (require) a lot of "improvising" and off-the-cuff figuring out.

Enjoying all of the responses so far... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Paula


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## Kludge (Dec 26, 2008)

Paula  said:
			
		

> My next project has very scant, undetailed drawings, so it will allow (require) a lot of "improvising" and off-the-cuff figuring out.



That's kind of how I work anyway. It's not because I'm super experienced but, I guess, because I'm good at visualization. After I have a clue what it'll look like, I can fit what I see in my head around what I have in the shop. Usually I make undimensioned sketches to ensure what I "see" will actually work. Ummm ... no, not always undimensioned. Sometimes I have to sort of dimension them to get ratios etc straight. 

I do *NOT* recommend this to anyone inexperienced. Not no way and not no how. I'm blessed with a talent that has helped me fight off the demons raised by nightmares and memories I'd rather not have by allowing me to imagineer machines in some detail. (Actually, I don't recommend the reason these designs come into being either. It sucks big time.)

I guess it's an up side to being totally weird. ;D

Best regards,

Kludge


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## compound driver 2 (Dec 26, 2008)

Cedge,
You do waffle on lol.

My 9 year old seems to think i have the time to teach him, given that before his ninth birthday he had his first boiler made and a twin cylinder oscilator made. The boiler has a test certificate passing it to 160PSI on the hydraulic and a working pressure of 80PSI.
he now has a 1938 Southbend lathe and with out much past a lift with the headstock he's well on the way to stripping and refurbishing the machine.

Id rather tell a new model engineer to just get on with it than sit and worry about what to do next.


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## Cedge (Dec 26, 2008)

CP...
That's why the rest of us hang around the place.... to keep the newbies from being lead astray by lousy "advice" like that. I may, by your definition, "waffle about", but I do try to share what little I know how to do... how about you? 

Steve


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## Maryak (Dec 26, 2008)

Ok Guys, enough is enough, the topic is locked but left to help our new machinists pick the good bits out of it.

Maryak


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 27, 2008)

Gentlemen:

Lets get some perspective here It is the Christmas season we are here to have FUN!!

CD, lets try to remember when your son was first learning the basics. It is great he has so much experience at a young age; he obviously has a very experienced teacher. You were right there with him, seeing and sharing with him all the little details as you went along; keeping him from injury; clearing his confusions; enjoying his successes with him, and centering him in any failures (or perceived failures). But here on the forum, it's different. Some of the folks on here have days or weeks or no experience or training. Folks, we need to encourage folks to jump in and make chips. The fear of messing up or making a mistake can hold folks back from getting started. Folks must have a basic understanding of safety before they can use the machines, and must understand a few basics of planning and work holding before making a usable part. 

*From Mrs. Falcon: Good Morning! Asked for the privilege of adding my couple nickels worth. It took a lot of doing for Tin to convince me to step into his inner sanctum and start 'making chips'. Scary stuff!! But like CD with his son, Tin (and our experienced son) were right there with me. Each of the folks who have contributed to this thread have shared the sequence they prefer to use in building engines - which is what Art Trans asked for. He has much useful food for thought, once he overlooks the extra debating. He, like any newbie, can sift through, think about what would work for him, and try it out. Others might even get a nudge to try something different. THAT is what this forum was established for, right??*

*This forum is founded on the premise the newbie or old hand can ask a question without reprisal, without a bunch of debate about whose idea is best, without hints of name calling. It's important to remember that. *

Folks this is not High school debate club it is a forum. We're here to share our ideas with others, not prove to ourselves or others that we are right and others are wrong.

Bob I see you locked this to settle things down. I think this is a great thread and has stayed mostly on track. except for the minor head butting here. Need I say?* play nice guys*
I am going to unlock the thread 
TIN FALCON IS WATCHING


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## artrans (Dec 27, 2008)

You no men i don't really no what happened here but I will tell you this. All my life and I am now 47 years old anything I like or want I would buy a book and read up on it and see the so called text book way of doing things. Then I would dive in and between what I learned by the book and any mistakes I make come up with my way. Now my way could be so hard and maybe the worst way of doing it but it works for me. Now that being said I also am not a bone head and believe that my way is the best so I always look for a new way when I come across someone or something that can shed light on a subject because I am of the believe that I can always learn something. For a good example and it is a very simple subject go to you local book store and you will see many books on how to organize anything now stop and think a min why in the hell do we need a book about that. Well I will tell you why go to you shop now and I would bet 9 out of 10 of use the shop looks like who did and ran. And as a matter of fact that to was a thread also on this site and a good one I mite add. bottom line
guys there are a million ways to do things like we where all told in school there is no stupid questions. again sorry for making trouble I saw and still see no harm in it but its beginning to make one not what to post anything because its no fun if it cause probelms I and I am sure most of us have many problems and this was a way of forgetting them but I guess people will be people and stir the pot. I always said you can be the first person to live on the moon 
and the first neighbor will be you worst night mare and you will be forced to move.


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 27, 2008)

This is a great thread so I'll try to give it a little nudge in its intended direction. 

1. I usually start a project making the most difficult intricate part first. 
2. Then to make sure I made it accurately I start making all the things that get attached to it. 
3. Once I get to that point I start making all the parts that branch out 
4. Often I save some of the messier stuff until last, like making a flywheel from barstock.

My next project, though, will start at step #4. Why? Right now I'm betwixt and between projects. Last week I spotted this 6" steel round sitting in the recycle bin. I thought, well almost any engine I make can always use a nice 6" flywheel, so I made one. I have no idea where it's going to end up but as a finished off flywheel it sure looks better than that scrap of steel sitting in the recycle bin. 

Cheers,
Phil


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## Propforward (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, there's a lot of good advice here, and I'm glad I read the thread (I'm a poet and I don't know it). It has certainly given me some good pointers - I am still setting up my shop, but I have been looking at a number of good barstock plans for my first engine. For me it's helpful to get a little bit of success when taking on something new - kind of helps to boost the enthusiasm somewhat, so I might take a slightly bass ackwards approach on my first engine project - turn out a couple of the simpler parts first to keep my spirits and moral up kind of thing, before progressing onto the more difficult parts. After all, this is supposed to be fun!

Certainly I will be massively overthinking the making of some parts, over and over in my head to give myself the best chance of success, hopefully that way I'll end up with something I can be proud of. I have a little dream to take part in the engine of the month competitions!

Again - great thread with some good advice to consider. You could probably form a pretty good life philosphy from the way you go about machining projects! Something along the lines of "begin nothing until you have considered how it is to be finished".

Great stuff.


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## Metal Mickey (Dec 28, 2008)

High, you could produce a book from the replies here. For my part (no pun) I have a look to find the most difficult or part that I fear the most, to start on. My reason being that if that's out of the way the chance of completing the task should be higher.

In the main this works out to be true but several times the hardest part I think to make, turns out to be less so and some smaller item ends up being a problem! That could be down to my 'newness' but its worked in the past!.

Whatever way you decide on, the fact that you have asked the question means you should do fine! 

I also listen/read all advice offered then I make MY decision. That also seems to work. Finally, don't worry about making mistakes. They can be used for smaller items in the future. You'll be amazed at the value (not financial) of your 'scrap' recycle' whatever you call it, box.

Just go for it and enjoy!


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## tel (Dec 28, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> I also listen/read all advice offered then I make MY decision.
> 
> Just go for it and enjoy!



That's the key to it, ain't it. There can be a dozen or more 'right' answers to any problem - picking the one that best suits your own situation and equipment is the trick.


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## Maryak (Dec 28, 2008)

I was trained in the navy's apprentice school. The beauty of this was you got to see many expert machinists approach to the same job. You could then pick the one with which you felt most comfortable to get your project up and running. You were not tied to one persons way of thinking. (Still managed to pick up my share of bad habits without any outside encouragement).

Best Regards
Bob


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## Cedge (Dec 28, 2008)

Bob
In days gone by, I found myself charged with a project that require a process that I knew just enough about to be dangerous. I knew I was out of my element, things were looking pretty insurmountable and I was a bit overwhelmed at the prospect of failing.

An old friend, a former USAF Chief Master Sargent, and I were having a drink and I mentioned my problem. The old guy rocked back in his chair and looked at me for a moment and asked me point blank if I'd learned ANYTHING from my time in service. 

He then suggested that I go down on the shop floor and figure out who would be doing the job... not his foreman... the actual guy on the job and ask his advice. His explanation was that the guy on the floor isn't going to work any harder than required and will find the easy way to get the job done with a minimum of effort.

I took his advice and after a couple of trips to the floor, I had a perfectly workable solution which was submitted and accepted, along with a notation of thanks to the guy who generously shared a few of his secrets with a young buck. I used that technique the rest of my working career and never failed to acknowledge where the real solutions came from.

In the process I learned something else. Not once did any of the solutions match my first idea of how it should be done. There were times that my ideas were adopted by an old timer or two, but they all gave me more than they got. That was where I learned "cat skinning" is not a one size fits all process. For every job there can be any number of "right ways" and I'm not particularly likely to know any of them, until I ask.

I'm almost immediately turned off by experts who claim to know the "only true path". Give me the guy with grease on his sandwich and under his nails.... and a bit of country born common sense on his lips.

Steve


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## Maryak (Dec 29, 2008)

Right on Steve, a bit of advise from the grass roots goes a long way towards success. 

In any project we don't appreciate how much of the success is due to the person on the job until they are not there. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





In our shops we are pretty much on our own, designer, project planner, project manager and person on the job.

Threads such as this one, I feel, help us all to achieve our goals and its thanks to artrans for asking the question in the first place.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Divided He ad (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi Guys ;D 


I know I've not been posting much recently.... But I feel I can contribute a little to this... From the looks of it I'll be told if I don't! :big: 

I have just embarked on the design and build of a batch of four little horizontal finger engines 75x50mm base size. (yer I know, over done to death. That's why no thread.)

Now, I've been doing a great deal of planning... Drawing using my early monotone Crap o cad II and that is really crap o!
Running through the ways of making the crank, con rod, treadle etc. And I was struggling to envision it all.

So I did exactly as Marv said. Wrote out a list of what to do first. I added dimensions to the ends of each item written and then armed with my drawings and a little plan I hit the shop.

This is where the next bit took place.... Holding and creating what I had in 3D in my head and 2d in front of me!!!

I've adopted some of the 'Bogstandard' ways of multi-machining parts of the exact size.... So happy I read and retained much of those posts  
I have also had to figure ways of getting parts to exact length, 8x35mm and 8x20mm round bronze uprights.... With a 5" 3 jaw chuck!
I figured it out after about ten min's... But without having myself stood at my lathe doing the work I would never have had the idea.

I've got a long way to go, I have yet to figure out the way to get all my parts to the exact same size.... I am challenging myself to get 4x identical (except the flywheels  ) finger engines.... Why four... Well it sounded good at the time! 

I am still trying to incorporate my 'artsy fartsy' approach (As it has been called before).... I know I am not a trained machinist... That's obvious... I struggle to get repetitive accuracy. Hence my self challenge.

So what I am saying is that I have tried and Incorporated many of your systems all on my own... Mainly due to reading how many of you (who have posted here) and others have done it on the site. 



Artrans,

This is the site that pushed me to finish my first and second project engines, Boggie sent me an invite via youtube after I left him a message saying I could never seem to finish an engine based project.

I read every post I could, learned how others did it. Then went head first into designing my own vertical finger/treadle engine after seeing a video of one.... I Had no plans and no idea... But did I ever learn a thing of two on that build!!

Once I posted a picture I couldn't leave a project unfinished... I'd have been ashamed to.... So many eyes watching, so much encouragement... It as a newbie really pushed me along to know people were wanting me to finish because they wanted to see it running too.

Then I tried plans.... Couldn't get the accuracy required, So made things to fit (As Marv said ' make to fit') Cylinder first, made the piston a fair bit later, but it was altered to fit the bore. 

My order was a little erratic... But I made a bit I was comfortable with... When I felt like a challenge I took on the rotary valve or crank web. When I wanted to just make something so I felt good... The base or the arbours to hold the flywheel etc.

I often pause on a part while trying to envision what I am trying to get from that block/bar in front of me....sometimes 5 min's... or sometimes even days! I figure I'm not alone in that one? 


So basically, read all you can,(use this huge mine of info!) stay safe, enjoy yourself and good luck ;D 





Ralph.


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## baldrocker (Dec 30, 2008)

First thing guys a round of applause for Mrs F :bow:

As a total newbie the only thing I can offer to those of us 
who have difficulty reading plans (and I have some very clear
and well laid out ones from a member of HMEM)
is,
Go to your local print shop etc and get the plans ENLARGED
Its amazing how things seem to explain themselves when you can
read them easily. Remember how big blueprints used to be?
BR


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## shred (Dec 31, 2008)

baldrocker  said:
			
		

> First thing guys a round of applause for Mrs F :bow:
> ...
> Go to your local print shop etc and get the plans ENLARGED
> Its amazing how things seem to explain themselves when you can
> ...


Absolutely.. great tip. I scan plans in and print the section I want double or 3x size to take out to the shop all the time. It's pretty easy with a computer and scanner, but even a good digital camera can make a great copier/enlarger.


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## Julian (Jan 1, 2009)

Plans? Enlarge what? I don't possess any. Everything I build is from scratch with a very bare minimum of planning just ask my mate Firebird. He will tell you I think of something and just start from what I think is the logical point and work from there. All parts are "made-to-fit" as it progresses. I enjoy the fact that whatever I build "evolves" from nothing. So far so good. Yes I have plenty of bits in the scrap but they evolve into something else eventually. Yes I am always safe in what I build and how I build it. My attitude is just "Go for it". Some significant reasoning for this is that I like the individual and unique nature of what I build and it is never the same as someone elses but the biggest reason is I am crap at using other peoples plans and dimensions...I always want to change them to suit so best to use my own.


Regards


Julian.


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## baldrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Julian
Yes I agree totally with your guesstimation approach, combine it with
my love of recycling scrap and almost total inability to measure accurately,
 anything is fun and a challenge and even more
gratifying when some thing I've made actually works. ???


> I am crap at using other peoples plans and dimensions


As am I, that is why as a total newcomer to machining I discovered working to 
plan is just as much a skill as turning a part to a poofteenth of an inch and in MY
case should be learned.
Horses for courses mate 
BR


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## T70MkIII (Jan 2, 2009)

Julian, BR, I agree with both of you. I am a complete novice (my lathe and mill are still in their boxes awaiting some time away from house renovations - did some lathing 30 odd years ago at school and more recently read a lot of books) and as such I intend to bite off far more than I can chew. I have been studying the plans for John V Thompson's Scorpion V8, and have a myriad of changes I want to make but I feel that if I follow the plan and shop notes exactly I will learn how to be accurate and gain an understanding of why he wanted something done a certain way. Knowing me, my build will fall somewhere in between and will therefore not run (or break on first firing). But I'll do it over with what I learned the first time...


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