# shop heating ?'s for winter



## bmuss51 (Jul 27, 2009)

this past winter was the first winter in my garage/machine shop and i only have use of half of the 2 car garage for my shop because the wife still wants to get her car in "her spot". so i tried to hang tarps to make a closed off room to heat my side where i have a elect. wall heater. which i found to be worthless for trying to keep the heat in and heat my space more quickly.so for this coming winter i want to try something diff. but i have a 2 car garage door that is keeping me from closing off my side with an insulated wall. and i am looking at ways to handle this and maybe with help i can come up with a solution.
 sense elect power is going to be deregulated this winter, I'm also looking for cheaper ways to heat my area. and what gives me a problem to heating is the threat of fire, because of fumes from using cleaning agents and also paint fumes. because i have had a house fire in the past due to a flame type of heat source.so what could be a type of heat source that does not have exposed flame and be safe to heat with other than elect. or is there a cheaper way to heat than Resistance type of heat? like i had a air source heat pump for the rest of my house and just switched over to a geo type heat sys. which is cheaper. but now to do my "shop/garage". 
 i know a heat pump can do heat and air by running the compressor in diff directions. so i was thinking of a window airconditioner/ heat unit if one is made!  but so far i have not found a unit that does both!   any ideas?


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## bearcar1 (Jul 27, 2009)

BM, It sounds to me like you have a large open area that allows for a great deal of heat loss to begin with. Until you can properly contain/restrict this air flow (heat loss) you will be fighting a losing battle no matter what type of heating system you incorporate into the works. Wood burning stoves generate so decent heat and if installed correctly offer a safe, economical heat source. Or perhaps a circulated hot water system. (boiler and radiator) Regardless of what you decide to incorporate, the first step is to get it as draft free as you possibly can, then it will be much easier to keep the space warm (comfortable).

BC1
Jim


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## ksouers (Jul 27, 2009)

BM,
I have to concur with Bearcar. I have a detached garage which makes it impossible to tie into the home heating/AC.
I use both a radiant electric heater (the oil-filled kind) and a portable propane system. The garage has "finished" walls and ceiling. I insulated the ceiling above the shop and blocked off the drafts and put up temporary floor-to-ceiling partitions insulated with pink foam board from HD/Lowe's. It keeps it pretty toasty in there and I really only need the propane when the temps are below about 30F outside (pretty much the last half of December through February here).

I had to spend a great deal of time and effort and head scratchin' to deal with the myriad drafts because of the temporary nature of the partitions and uneven floor and walls. But once the drafts got taken care of it stays quite comfortable even down to the single digits.


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## Kermit (Jul 27, 2009)

If your have a bare concrete floor underfoot, that will soak up as much heat as you can $afford$ to make. Might consider some carpeting. 

Also, there are solar water heaters which are enclosed to insulate from the winter cold, that could supply hot water to a radiator/fan setup. Aluminum or copper tubing painted flat black inside a glass case is basically all they are...


Kermit


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## Bernd (Jul 27, 2009)

I concur with the insulate and then insulate some more plan. Also depending on were you live, have you given thought to a coal stove with a stoker on it? 

Bernd


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## hammers-n-nails (Jul 27, 2009)

i dont know exactally what your starting with in your garage or how easy you need to be able to get the partition up and down but the easiest way to build a temporary hard wall is to get some 3 5/8 20 or 25ga metal stud track and screw to the cieling in the proper position then plumb down and either nail the bottom track down with hand driven concrete nails or drill a hole and drop a nail in it, this way you can screw through the track and into your studs (wood studs would be my choice because of cost and its easier to attatch wall covering to generally) and there is no need to cut them to an exact length because or the rise and fall of the floor and cieling.     
     as far as insulation goes in a shop, in my opinion there is no need to get too crazy with it because you arnt trying to keep it 70deg 24 hours a day 7 days a week and the cost would take forever to recover in energy savings. in addition as you get more insulation in a cavity, additional insulation becomes les effective, this is where r-values become decieving, the u-value is the true measure of an insulation systems effectivness. the cheapest thing to do would be to put whatever kind of covering on the shop side of the wall, plywood, osb or whatever and then staple plastic or tyvec on the back leaving a 31/2 air space giving you a theroretical r value of about 4 or 5 the pink board that was mentioned works good but its expensive, less expensive is fiberglass batts and they work just as well or better but are a pain to store when you got your wall taken apart. 
    you mentioned that you hung tarps up last year if you wanted to stay with something along those lines you could get some concrete blankets which really just ammount to two tarps with bubble wrap in between them, they usually have an r-rating of about 5 per blanket. the bad thing about that is that you dont just go down to the weekend warrior depot and buy them you have to go to a contractor supplier like carter waters or whitecap and i have no idea how much they cost.
    all i can tell you for your grage door is to build a false cieling out past the end of the track however is convenient
    and no i dont know of a cheaper way to heat a small area except wood, and thats not alot cheaper if you live in town and have to buy it i wouldnt think. 1 cord of oak makes 26million btus of heat, 308 killowatt hours makes 1 million btu's, ill let you figure it up. in either case dont forget about a fan to pull the warm air off the cieling. radient heat (radiant floor heat is what ive been arount, obviously cant be retrofitted into an existing slab) is supposedly wonderful and is the new "in" thing but your talking a fairly high first cost ($1000-1500?) and your still using propane or natural gas or electricity to heat the water so it kinda seems like its 6 of one or a half a dozon of the other to me but the manufacturers do claim an increased efficiency somehow ???


thats all i got, didnt expect this reply to be so long but i dont like to leave anthing that might be helpful out. if you got any more questions ask, as you can tell i have no problem sharing my opinion.


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## bmuss51 (Jul 28, 2009)

most of what i have seen post about my heating problem has fire somewhere in the source except for the solar bit which i believe will be to costly.and sense i have had a house fire i am wanting to heat as safely as i can,but also stay on the cheaper side.
 i have a cape cod style house with a attached 2 car garage where my shop is in.and what had started my house fire was a kro heater and the fuel that started the hole thing was that i had built a homebuilt aircraft and had it at home to do some maintenance to it over the winter. which one of the things was redoing the gas cap and i believe there was fumes coming out of the tank (which i or my wife could not smell) and sinking to the floor where the kro heater was. and after about 4 hr of working around things, she blew. so i'm very cautious now of what i do in the garage. and yes, the house and the aircraft was a total loss along with 2 vehicles but no injuries to my family.
 one ? i asked i did not get a response back on yet. like is there a window airconditioner that reverses to make heat like a heat pump does?


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## arnoldb (Jul 28, 2009)

bmuss51, I have airconditioner/heater combinations in my house - made by LG corporation. The one in my living room is 28000 BTU, and when it gets really cold here it does a very good job of heating up my open plan living room, kitchen, and dining area; the floor space is about the same as that of a double garage. If your garage is insulated, something similar would do a good job; I don't know how machines etc, will affect such a unit's performance, but at least you should be able to get the ambient air temperature up.
It's a bit of a hog on electricity though - 2.5kW - but if used to just keep the air temperature livable, it does not run continuously.
The units I have are "split - type" units; not window units, but you should be able to get something similar in window units. Cost was fair - 5 years ago when I installed, the 28000 BTU unit was about US$1200.
If I wasn't saving up to buy a mill, I'd be saving up to buy a unit like this for my garage; not so much for heating, but rather for cooling in the summer.
Regards, Arnold


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 28, 2009)

If you are in an area where you have a good sun in the winter a solar air heater is an option. Just google and you will find DIY and commercial units. My current home can't make use of such a system, but I would be using it if I could.


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## Kermit (Jul 29, 2009)

If fire is to be avoided. You may have to pony up for the expensive solar gear(or build your own), but remember, with solar you will not have a continuing FUEL bill anymore. Once the equipment is producing heat-your fuel free(excepting power for air circulation, coolant pumps ect.

aluminum tubing on thin aluminum plate supported on wood pillars inside an insulated box(double layered), painted flat black and covered with transparent material of some sort. This might be a good place for Automobile Junk Yard - Car windows and RTV silcone ;D (I made a small solar oven for a school project many moons ago)

Once you've got the heater you go to a storage tank solution. Electric water heater. Go back to the junk yard and get yourself a radiator and that becomes your 'window unit'


Or go to google and type in 'Window heat AC unit'. First cheap return I saw was Ace Hardware with a 5,000 something BTU unit for $199.00. Big enough to make a 12 x 12 comfortable in about 30 minutes..

Solar or electric are the only options without fire involvement, excepting geothermal, which takes a large initial outlay of money.


^
Well, at least, that's how it goes in my fantasy life. Auto junkyards and highschool science projects. 

Full of useless information as always ,
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Jul 29, 2009)

Here in the MidWest US, many farm and rural homes have a wood burning furnace out in the middle of the yard that either supplements or is the primary source of heat in the structure. If you are afraid of a fire hazard in your building, you could place the heating source remotely (ei: away from the building) and plumb heat transfer elements to the structure. Circulated hot water or oil tubes underneath a small, raised, wooden floor would be another cost effective and relatively simple method of heating your garage. Again, the most important step is to eliminate any drafts and to reduce thermal losses. Thermal pane windows and insulation in the walls and ceiling and or reducing the amount of air space to be heated should be the first steps taken, regardless of the methods used to generate heat.

BC1
Jim


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## bmuss51 (Aug 8, 2009)

i have looked at some window heat ac units on line. but from what i saw is that some brands are using resistance heat to get some of there rated BTU. and i'm finding out that the mfrs do not have the info on their site as to which brand and model uses only the compressor for the heat side.
 the other thing i can't seem to find is a layman term of the comparison of elect resistance heat to a seer rating of lets say 9.5.because that is the bottom line if i want to save money on heating.like a 4000 watt elect. heater puts out about 5300 BTU, but a 12000 BTU window heat ac unit with a seer rating of 9.5 on 220v uses how many watts?

and the search goes on !  trying to save money so i can get equipment to make more model motors.

as for the walls, i was thinking of thin walls to try to save space. like maybe ferring lath with paneling on both sides with foam in between . which would give me a wall of about 1 1/4" thick. but that would cut down on being able to put shelf's or cabinets on that wall.

another thing that i'm comtaplating is that i would like sliding door into the area to try to save the door swing space. but how to do that effectively without alot of cost.

oh: what webs do we weave !  and doing all of this as an idea, will it save money in the long run. because as a rough estimate my ideas should cost at least $750.which is alot to make up over resistance heat which i already have.


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## RobasaurusRex (Aug 15, 2009)

I would like to suggest a way to put up some temporary walls around your work area. I used this method to enclosure an area of my basement which I was using as an office and which was chilly and hard to heat in the winter.

First I went and purchased a bunch of heavy-duty home shelving units. The kind with heavy steel frames and particle board shelves.  I don't remember what I paid, but they weren't that expensive. You also might be able to use the cheaper sheet metal ones, although I am not certain of that. 

I arranged them to make a "room," leaving enough space between two of them to install a pre-hung door. I then used small bolts to attached Luan plywood to their backsides. There were small gaps between the units and I covered them up, along with the bolts, with wide pine strips that I attached with screws. I finished by painting the wood so it looked nice. 

It was a quick and easy way to create a room with lots of storage shelves, which I also needed. The walls are strong and stable, and I could easily disassemble them and reuse the shelf units for something else if I wanted to.

Of course, this method will only help with your heating problem if you don't have an open ceiling above your work area. In my case extended the plywood up to the basement rafters and filled any with insulation. 

I have a small 12x12-foot workshop in my garage that is easy and cheap to heat because the ceiling is low, because of a storage area above it. I often use a kerosene fueled salamander to blow the chill off and then I switch to electric quartz radiant heaters that sit on my workbenches facing my front and back. If I need it, I also have a propane infrared heater that mounts on top of a propane tank. I'm not worried much about a fire, but I do understand your own concerns. 

Foam mats on the floor will also help immensely to keep you warmer and they will make standing more comfortable also. Mine are one-inch thick interlocking mats that I bought at a wholesale club for almost nothing. I've also seen them at Harbor Freight. I've had them for a couple of years now and they have held up very well.


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## Groomengineering (Aug 21, 2009)

I have an A/C-Heat combo window unit in my 24x40 garage/shop. Picked it up "scratch/dent" at Lowes for a couple hundred $'s. It claims to heat/cool up to 1000 sq/ft. Well..... It will take the chill off down to mid 40's, any colder than that and you don't even know it's there. I'm going to end up walling off 15' on one end and insulating for the shop. So yes, they are available but don't expect much when it's really cold.

Jeff


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## tonphil1960 (Sep 3, 2009)

Insulate !! I had an insulated building in the back yard for some time, about one car sized, wood stove kept it warm over night no problem. My other free standing 2 car garage, non insulated cinder block takes all day to get up to temp in winter with a big wood stove and propane heater going. One of the best heaters I have found is the propane (jet engine type) salamanders. One of these will heat your one car area quickly, but insulation is key as not to lose all the heat you are building up. get it up to temp and if insulated you can then switch to radiant heat of some kind, propane maybe. It's good that you have one wall attached to the house, that's one wall you know is being kept warm from the other side. The garage door is always a problem trying to keep tight.

good luck, Tony


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## d-m (Sep 3, 2009)

Ill chime in on this one I remember a post on this topic a few years ago and was using wood to heat my 1000sf. I like the dry heat that wood makes but not the mess and it took forever to get it warm enough to work on the coldest days. Winter before last I built a waste oil heather and it worked vary well but with tank skin temps over 1400deg and uncertain fuel regulating I was afraid to leave it run unattended. My wife (bless her hart) spotted a 75,000 btu propane heater the type you would find hanging from the ceiling. The unit was new never installed and the price was right @500.00$ this was the best 500 $ I have ever spent on a typical winter day in central OR. The temp is too d*& cold for me. I enjoy the ease of walking out to the shop turning up the thermostat  going back in the house poring a cup of coffee by the time I return it a nice 65deg. The best part is this high efficiently Rheem heater only burned 75 gal of fuel for the winter. How did I get away with that INSULATE INSULATE INSULATE I also have a two car roll up door that is the drafty area and it is expensive to replace with a efficient door but if you seal the edges the best you can and caulk any area that has a draft its not as bad as you may think. I have blown in insulation in the attic and R19 in the walls. I also leave the heater running set at a comfortable 45deg when Im not in the shop this keeps the moisture off the tool and machines and I want to think that it also helps keep that big rock floor that I walk on a little warmer and in return helps keep the shop warm. Down fall its got a flame and the fire danger is always present and in the back of my mine as a potential for disaster but I would never go back to wood or oil. 
Dave


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## 1Kenny (Sep 4, 2009)

Back in the 80s I built a 1000 sq ft garage. Took the time to seal it up and insulate it real well. The first winter I used a salamander to heat it. It worked quite good with the exception of one thing. The shop was sealed so tight that when running the heater it would give me a headache. One night I got dizzy so I stepped out side for fresh air. The heater had used up most of the oxygen in the shop. I would open the door every hour or so after that.

Kenny


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## tonphil1960 (Sep 4, 2009)

Ideally, for me anyway. The way to go is to run a gas line and install a forced hot air blower unit mounted on the wall, the same units that are used in auto shops, welding shops, body shops any shop that has garage doors usually has one of these. If your garage is free standing that's another story as you would have to put the line underground. if your garage is attached to the house this is by far the easiest method I think. Run a line hang the heater, vent it out the wall or roof,, your done. If you are not planning on moving in the near future it's worth it and it will not cost much more than any other kind of heater. At least then you have real heat with thermostat control ! I know if I ever move this is what I will do. Having tried all sorts of jury rigged heat sources I am sick of that nonsense by now too.

Good luck, Tony


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## steamer (Oct 1, 2009)

Direct vent gas heater and insulate.

The home stores carry a quilted blanket insulation that has a metalized face that is about 3/8 thick and has an R value of 9.  My finished garage is not insulated on the outside walls so I stapled this product up on the inside plaster and noticed a very sizeable improvement.  Makes the inside of the shop look very satellite-esque but its warm!

To the heat source question, lets be careful not to asphyxiate ourselves.  A direct vent gas heater takes its combustion air from the outside...no open flame in the shop and no carbon monoxide.  Here in the Northeast that works fine and if properly installed in a garage, 18" off the floor, you can still store a car in the shop.....eh garage ;D.

Works for me.

Dave


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## BAH101 (Oct 1, 2009)

Take out the garage door opener and put some grit in the rollers for the door to make it real hard to open. Make sure you hide when the missus comes home so she can't get you to open the door for her. After a while your problem will be solved. Thm:


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## bmuss51 (Oct 26, 2009)

after a long time on pondering on how best to heat my shop area. it was decided to leave the 3000 watt elec. heater in the wall and not replace it because of the cost. but i do plan to put more effective way to heat the area by installing 2x3 walls on my side of the garage (work shop). and with 2x3's only coming in 96" lengths the problem is to get the wall all the way to the ceiling which is 104". but i'm sure that another short piece can be added to the length by one of 2 methods. like just adding a lets say a 12" length to one side and extend that piece to make a longer 2x3. or add one of those metal spiked thingy's to lengthen the stud.and as for the doors to open up the area as much as can happen. it was decided to use closet doors which would be 36" each and make up a trolley to slide the doors on and have rubber seals at the bottom. or make up 2 doors myself using luan ply to make 48" doors.
 but no matter how you look at it, it's all going to take time away from machining.


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## Troutsqueezer (Oct 26, 2009)

Last Winter I bought the parabolic heater from Costco to use in my work shed. All you have to do is point it to wherever you are sitting/standing and it will warm you up without having to warm the entire workspace. You can feel the heat from 15 feet away, or more.


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## Artie (Oct 26, 2009)

Well, economys are important in todays world... so why not kill 2 birds with the one stone (if you really need to kill birds with stones that is...)?

I would have thought the answer was obvious.... a foundry mate! Before you start work in your shop each day....cast something! Have 'useful' heating......

Yes I know....im an Aussie.... we suffer form certain maladys..... comes from living in paradise where such heating issues are almost unheard of.... my shop only has 3 walls (see my avatar) and an old wood stove for 'ambient' warmth during winter...... :

To all our UK friends, thank you - thank you - thank you..... for sending my forebears out to here a couple of hundred years ago...I dont know what my ancestors stole or did.. but it was the best days work they have ever done :big: :big: :big:


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## tel (Oct 26, 2009)

Strewth Artie, it's alright for youse blokes out there in the never-never. Gets down to -14°C 'ere at Rockley. (_and up to 44°C)_


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## Artie (Oct 26, 2009)

tel  said:
			
		

> Strewth Artie, it's alright for youse blokes out there in the never-never. Gets down to -14°C 'ere at Rockley. (_and up to 44°C)_



But mate...... you must admit you ARE the minority... not many places in Aus get near that low (mountain range dwellers....lol)...I think the worst its been here was -2 and the highest (gee just last year) was 49.

In case anyones wondering Tels in the Great Dividing Mountain range and im on the edge of the desert area (of which there is a lot! 70% of Aus in fact) but we are only about 4 to 5 hours apart.


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## tel (Oct 26, 2009)

True, there are only two police stations in NSW entitled to special cold weather gear issue - Rockley and Khancoban.


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## ozzie46 (Oct 26, 2009)

Where I live In Colorado, the humidity is not much of a problem. I have some tools I made when I took a machining course in 1983 that I never took any special precautions against rust and they are rust free to this day. :big: :big: They were put in he bottom of my tool box and more or less forgot about until about 4 years ago when I got my 7 x 12.

  Ron


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## Cedge (Oct 26, 2009)

*bang* 
I've just read through this thread for the first time. I too have been trying to figure out how to make my Man Cave a bit more winter friendly.... for about 3 years now. My best solution was to simply close up shop until the spring thaw. That idea hasn't worked all that well since I get a royal case of the fidgets when I can't go in there and do something to occupy my mind for a few hours each day. 

A few minutes ago, I was struck by a blinding flash of an idea, which I'll credit you guys for. When I closed down my former business, we sold off everything that was useful.... except.... get this.... several Natural Gas, thermostat controlled, Radiant Heaters that hung from the ceiling. The building is no longer in use and I have no plans for any future occupancy, only wanting to sell the property at some point in time.

I just walked outside to find that my gas meter backs right up to the offset that forms the corner of my garage, making it only about an 8 foot vertical run for a gas line access. Tomorrow, I'll take a ride over to my former shop and check to see if one of the heaters is of a size I can use in my garage. Hopefully the heating solution I've been searching for is close at hand. Thanks for the inspiration guys!!

Steve


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## d-m (Oct 27, 2009)

Good call Steve I don't know how you could have forgotten you had them stickpoke. If you look at the pic of my Austin you can just see the propain heater hanging off the ceiling 175k btu a few weeks ago I had another 10" of insulation blown in man what a difference. I like to be warm temp here now is 33 and windy all I do is turn up the t- stat and enjoy the warmth.
Dave


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