# Steam engine lubrication



## Bentwings (Dec 10, 2021)

I’m about to jump in with a big step into model steam engines.

the lubrication issue comes up very quickly snd has many opinions. 
the engine I’m going to get has sliding piston valves rotating shaft bearings
Initially I’ll be using compressed air for power as I haven’t found a suitable boiler I can’t have a fuel fired boiler in my home so it will have to be electric. This will not be available at first.
Over the years in auto racing never seize was the go to for any sliding things nuts bolts shaft bearings eve emergency sssembly lube otherwise motor oil always worked well especially when sponsor supplied.   As I got into air guns silicone oils and greases becam the go to lubes  they worked very well on rubber Teflon and sliding things. However silicones are banned anywhere painting is done . No need to worry there no painting in the house.  But the steam engine has lots of moving parts. I’ll use lubricated air to start with model cars have a huge variety of silicone oils and greases and they work well . So my thought silicone oil would be great in either lubed air or drip injected as needed.
Now when we get to live steam things might change. I know nothing at this point silicone oils don’t wash off easily I saw a note that mineral oil can lift it then wash with soapy water. But this is exactly opposite of what is needed. So will hot steam require at least more oil or maybe thicker viscosity?  The only seals on this engine are Teflon piston rings I think they will work fine but the bearings may need heavier oils. I know there is steam engine oil but I don’t know where to get it locally or even where to order it mobile makes the only one I’ve heard of.
So help me out please this engine won’t be run at very high speeds or have big loads unless I come up with some thing for it to power other than a small gernetator. This is s fun table model not industrial power plant .
Thanks
Byron


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## Jasonb (Dec 11, 2021)

What is the actual engine, as I said in the other thread for very small ones I use a lighter oil as too heavy can make things like piston valves stick if they are not driven by a solid linkage. Generators are best run at speed, Stuarts typically suggested 1000rpm for their engines running them even belted up you really need a high speed engine not a slow smooth running mill engiene


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## Bentwings (Dec 11, 2021)

This is a model engine with piston slide valves lots of moving parts. I asked about silicone oils as many viscosities are available at Rc car hobby shops. I’ve used this in air guns even at close to 0deg f without issues  I’ll be running a ver quiet air compressor from California air compressors. It will have a moisture trap and line lubricator. My main concern is the wrist pins as they are deep inside the slide piston   valves. I plan on using an air brush for other intermittent oil as well as drip for the main bearings. The engine features highly polished finishing so everything is pretty and smoot. It’s not very big about two hands full . Eventually they are coming out with an electric steam boiler so I’ll probably get one.  It has bore of 14 mm stroke 18 mm . It weighs 3 kg . Bad part about silicone especially if spraying   You can’t paint anything unless fish eyes are your thing we don’t even allow silicones of any typ in the shop this engine is at home sitting on a table 

byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 11, 2021)

This is from chiltern models.uk. It’s the 4 cylinder model I thought about 1,000 rpm maybe +_ a little as needed. It’s not a long stroke or big bore just a lot of moving parts. Just looking at it I’d guess the piston and slide vale wrist pins would be the hardest to keep well lubed. Cats have closed crank cases so there is a lot of oil splashing around all the time the wrist pins in drag cars do take a beating even with oil holes as they don’t run for long times. I think a little spray oil occasionally will help they are press fit on the connecting rods so hard to inspect other than a tear down. I’ll do this as it gets a few miles on it they will stiffen up if they are getting any wear. The model car silicone oil really stays on parts about the only thing that takes it off is mineral oil then solven like acetone . I don’t think it would be a good idea to remove the wrist pins. I really would like them full floating but I’m not going to change this right now unless I have trouble. It’s only driving a small generator with shaft drive so there is no side loads from belts . I’d like to go to a real boiler but I really don’t want a fuel unit in the house. So far the YouTube builds scare me. They said an electric boiler will be available doon so not a fix all but it will run warmer so maybe a little more clearance there is some steam oil available but not that I know of locally .
Byron


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## Jasonb (Dec 11, 2021)

Ok I know the ones, for small engines like that on air I tend to use a very thin clockmakers oil which I apply with a syringe to the oil cups or depresions if the engine is not big enough for cups, the eccentric, conrod big and small ends and the exposed piston and valve rods. I'll also put a good drip or two into the inlet before running. This lasts easily for a good 10min run, if I want to run longer it's just out with the syringe.  Not sure of a US source but if you google clock oil you will find plenty of small bottles some with syringe type spouts..

I have a similar style Hyundai compressor but have found that inline oilers don't work so well with the low pressures I tend to run my display engines at which is usually around 5psi. If you are running under load then pressure needs to be higher so tool oiler may be OK

This single is similar size at 16mm x 16mm with a piston valve runs happy with a few drops for 10mins or so. You can see the dark oil come out under the top exhaust as the engine is still new



This one is a slide valve fractionally smaller at 12mm bore but if you look at the tacho reading at the end quite happy running fast


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## Bentwings (Dec 11, 2021)

Thanks I’ll check out the lock oil. I wonder what special properties it has other than thin .  One thing that comes from turning lots of nuts snd bolts over the years is never seize . I use it on every thing. The finish is so smooth on these little motors that there isn’t much “tooth” for it to fill into but on the racer wrist pins it really cuts down on wear and tear it’s more a matter of the parts being deformed by the massive loads of nitro than scuffing main and rod bearings last a run at best if the rest of the motor is still in one piece . You can’t imagine the cost of parts on just one run .  A loaded piston with tool steel wrist pins is over $300 this year  I’m glad I’ve retired from that sport . Anew supercharger is more than a new corvette  they will have a whole row of them in the trailers .  
byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 11, 2021)

I forgot . You have done cool threading tooling. I wish I had some neat stuff like that unfortunately I can’t see well enough to enjoy it .
Have a merry Christmas every one.  I just got in from shoveling 8” of wet snow. Here is a tip for this stuff. Spray the inside of your snow blower or plow and your shovel with Ed 40 foot stuff doesn’t stick to it.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 24, 2021)

Bentwings said:


> I forgot . You have done cool threading tooling. I wish I had some neat stuff like that unfortunately I can’t see well enough to enjoy it .
> Have a merry Christmas every one.  I just got in from shoveling 8” of wet snow. Here is a tip for this stuff. Spray the inside of your snow blower or plow and your shovel with Ed 40 foot stuff doesn’t stick to it.
> Byron


I just got real defunded castor oil . I’m going to do some parallel oil tests based on what others have done  thanks for the info on air line lubricators I have the same concerns . I’ve been scratching my head to figure a way to humidify air with oil. 5 psi is like blowing your breath on it . I’ve been thinking of some kind of pre mixing chamber. I actually was more worried another having humid oil/air in the house so I as looking into a separator along the lines of a centrifuge. I came across these turbine that spin 50k rpm I’d guess oil won’t stay in the air long in them . Possibly I could recycle the turbine exhaust into the main air lin. Things are getting complicated for a simple engine operation . I have the little dynamo ordered too but I’m looking at a small stepper motor to generator conversion. Video looks easy I’ve ordered rectifiers an condensers so I’m ready for construction currently working on compound planetary gear reducer. I might just have gears 3D printed  the little mill motor will run on 20 psi pretty easily at 1k rpm video of 3 cyl version shows up to 3k easy. I also ordered spring belt material so I can run either flat belt or spring belt. I have a spare flywheel I could put a groove in too if needed. Last night I found immersion electric heater with 1” npt threads. This will just fit in my boiler design . I’ll insulate the boiler and rap it with polished as sheet for beauty . I may even put a as slip tube reflector inside to improve heat flow. I haven’t received my boiler end cap materials yet so I’m holding out on construction I think I’ll order the heater today  it will solve my heating issue if it gets hot enough . I have three or 4 Rowan of so called super heat tubes laid out the immersion heater will fit directly under the lowest row so heat flow should go ok I think . My care giver and accountant is going to have a fit when the bill for the engine comes. But hey, it’s my money my hobby and it’s one of the ew things inflation has not hit . Besides it’s for my mental health . So the doc will back me up . This is small stuff compared to street rods7k for just a paint job makes this hobby fun .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 25, 2021)

Bentwings said:


> I just got real defunded castor oil . I’m going to do some parallel oil tests based on what others have done  thanks for the info on air line lubricators I have the same concerns . I’ve been scratching my head to figure a way to humidify air with oil. 5 psi is like blowing your breath on it . I’ve been thinking of some kind of pre mixing chamber. I actually was more worried another having humid oil/air in the house so I as looking into a separator along the lines of a centrifuge. I came across these turbine that spin 50k rpm I’d guess oil won’t stay in the air long in them . Possibly I could recycle the turbine exhaust into the main air lin. Things are getting complicated for a simple engine operation . I have the little dynamo ordered too but I’m looking at a small stepper motor to generator conversion. Video looks easy I’ve ordered rectifiers an condensers so I’m ready for construction currently working on compound planetary gear reducer. I might just have gears 3D printed  the little mill motor will run on 20 psi pretty easily at 1k rpm video of 3 cyl version shows up to 3k easy. I also ordered spring belt material so I can run either flat belt or spring belt. I have a spare flywheel I could put a groove in too if needed. Last night I found immersion electric heater with 1” npt threads. This will just fit in my boiler design . I’ll insulate the boiler and rap it with polished as sheet for beauty . I may even put a as slip tube reflector inside to improve heat flow. I haven’t received my boiler end cap materials yet so I’m holding out on construction I think I’ll order the heater today  it will solve my heating issue if it gets hot enough . I have three or 4 Rowan of so called super heat tubes laid out the immersion heater will fit directly under the lowest row so heat flow should go ok I think . My care giver and accountant is going to have a fit when the bill for the engine comes. But hey, it’s my money my hobby and it’s one of the ew things inflation has not hit . Besides it’s for my mental health . So the doc will back me up . This is small stuff compared to street rods7k for just a paint job makes this hobby fun .
> Byron


How did I get defunded castor oil. Spellcheck messed that one up.Watching too much politics . I meant de gummed. Spell checkalso found that canola oil can be used for shaving make blades last longer it supposed to be good cutting oil LOL . I have oily enough skin as it is.  

byron


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## wazrus (Dec 26, 2021)

As have many others, I have tried all sorts of lubricating oil, to find that most of it winds up as a whitish, sticky emulsified mess which need more than a little solvent to clean it all up. Then, consulting Shell's product listings, i came across Shell Valvata. i bought 20L of the stuff and the label on the drum says' Shell Valvata: steam cylinder oil'. I don't think there'd be labelling more specific than that. It can be thick and gooey, no mistake, but it does not emulsify easily and will even, I'm told, stand quite degree of superheat. Anyway, for my usually 'wet' steam, Valvata seems to be the goods.


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## abby (Dec 26, 2021)

The cylinders of steam engines require steam oil which is applied either by a mechanical oil pump or by a displacement lubricator.
Any good model supplier should have steam oil but a quick google shows a multitude of ads.
Dan.


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## Bentwings (Dec 26, 2021)

wazrus said:


> As have many others, I have tried all sorts of lubricating oil, to find that most of it winds up as a whitish, sticky emulsified mess which need more than a little solvent to clean it all up. Then, consulting Shell's product listings, i came across Shell Valvata. i bought 20L of the stuff and the label on the drum says' Shell Valvata: steam cylinder oil'. I don't think there'd be labelling more specific than that. It can be thick and gooey, no mistake, but it does not emulsify easily and will even, I'm told, stand quite degree of superheat. Anyway, for my usually 'wet' steam, Valvata seems to be the goods.


Great find. I’ll have to check it out locally.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 26, 2021)

wazrus said:


> As have many others, I have tried all sorts of lubricating oil, to find that most of it winds up as a whitish, sticky emulsified mess which need more than a little solvent to clean it all up. Then, consulting Shell's product listings, i came across Shell Valvata. i bought 20L of the stuff and the label on the drum says' Shell Valvata: steam cylinder oil'. I don't think there'd be labelling more specific than that. It can be thick and gooey, no mistake, but it does not emulsify easily and will even, I'm told, stand quite degree of superheat. Anyway, for my usually 'wet' steam, Valvata seems to be the goods.


I my oil research I found the note that said soaking a castor oiled mess in warm antifreeze really cleans it up. I haven’t tried it. I’ve used about every hazardous chemicals knob . Ultra sonic cleaner and various brushes seemed to get th job done. I don’t know about antifreeze I don’t have anything to even test with. Nor any antifreeze laying around.  I will say that I blew a radiator hose off on my Streetrod spraying AF  all over everything after light pressure wash and blow dry it was pretty clean under the hood, so maybe it works. I’d rather not go through the pre mess however .
Byron


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## Steamchick (Dec 27, 2021)

After steaming, I wash through with WD40. As a water dispersant  it clears the emulsion, after which I oil with motor oil until the next steaming. The motor oil is full of chemicals - many to resist corrosion, others anti-gum for long-standing without sticking the engine. But Steam oil doesn't have those corrosion inhibitors. But the steam oil has a high vapourising point, so it is carried into the engine by the hot steam, without degrading, which lighter oils would. So: steam needs steam oil, washout with a water dispersant, preserve with a preserving or motor oil. And I use 5W30 motor oil for external lubrication, to lubricate at minimal friction for the model. Works for me...
K2


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## Bentwings (Dec 27, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> After steaming, I wash through with WD40. As a water dispersant  it clears the emulsion, after which I oil with motor oil until the next steaming. The motor oil is full of chemicals - many to resist corrosion, others anti-gum for long-standing without sticking the engine. But Steam oil doesn't have those corrosion inhibitors. But the steam oil has a high vapourising point, so it is carried into the engine by the hot steam, without degrading, which lighter oils would. So: steam needs steam oil, washout with a water dispersant, preserve with a preserving or motor oil. And I use 5W30 motor oil for external lubrication, to lubricate at minimal friction for the model. Works for me...
> K2


oh yes that’s wonderful news.  I’m going to have a house full of atmosphere of oily seam air. I just got a new humidifier as it’s really dry in the winter here. It has a filter on the intake so I’ll probably have to clean that up too.LOL. Since the engine is only abou 5”x 5” and will have quick disconnect steam lines, can the steam oil be cleaned with brake clean. I can just grab a jacket and rubber gloves and maybe spray it off outdoors.   I hate brake clean and prefer the soap and water . I’ve already got an oiling station set up with cans and syringes of oils. Ed 40 gets under a lot of stuff but some lubes are really resistant to it. It does work on the snow shovel however. I was out shoveling today after spraying the shovel. I wish I’d known about this years ago .


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## Bentwings (Dec 27, 2021)

wazrus said:


> As have many others, I have tried all sorts of lubricating oil, to find that most of it winds up as a whitish, sticky emulsified mess which need more than a little solvent to clean it all up. Then, consulting Shell's product listings, i came across Shell Valvata. i bought 20L of the stuff and the label on the drum says' Shell Valvata: steam cylinder oil'. I don't think there'd be labelling more specific than that. It can be thick and gooey, no mistake, but it does not emulsify easily and will even, I'm told, stand quite degree of superheat. Anyway, for my usually 'wet' steam, Valvata seems to be the goods.


I couldn’t find this locally. Amazon had something that may be the stuff but 55 gal might be a little much  for a steamer that weighs only about 2kg.  I did get a nice quart of pure de gummed castor oil and of course I have canola and a little coconut oil. My cat won’t eat the coconut oil but my dog would eat anything that had even a little coconut oil on it. I think that even with the mess the castor oil has plenty to offer. Great pour point and excellent film strength at all temps. It’s going to get below 0 f in a couple days so I’ll put the castor oil out side and see how it pours when really cold. Chilertern steam seemed to think it would be ok especially if warmed a little. I’ve given some thought to an oil preheated so relatively hot oil would go through the line lubricator. Also a post heater so the high speed turbines could act as separators.  They unfortunately have very small shafts. I think I can remove them and bore the holes out larger then put some good bearings in them .  Fortunately they are pretty inexpensive so if one gals I wountbcryvaboutbit . The little dynamo doesn’t have a ver big shaft either. I want to use in line couplings so the load on the shafts are not over hung .  I’m hoping to get out to the shop this week so I can get started. I ordered some bridge rectifiers and a small stepper motor but I got news that these won’t be delivered ubtill first eeeknof Feb.    well I’ll get as much done on the boiler as I can . Maybe even get the engine by then.   We got rain that froze the 3-4” snow with freezing rain on that. It was really windy 35 mph so it wasn’t fun shoveling snow today. I wanted a clear pat fot deliveries I don’t want any more delays. My kitty sat in the window all the time I was out . My dog would have been out right with me. It was -30 a couple years ago and she was running around like a puppy in the snow and cold. Australian shepherds were bred for harsh conditions. She didn’t care what the weather was. If the door was open it was time to go out and have fun .  
byron


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## wazrus (Dec 28, 2021)

Byron
I had a kelpie and, being in Australia. this was the ideal dog for anywhere. GP dog. General -purpose, low-maintenance dog, Would run all day in any conditions.
My Valvata sits in my shed. I you were a little closer, we could do a deal. Yes, 55 gallons is a bit over the top and when I bought my 5 gals, _that_ was much more than I'd ever use. I haven't checked, but I will look at Shell to see if it's still available.


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## wazrus (Dec 28, 2021)

Byron
I just finished Googling Shell Valvata and it is indeed still available, certainly in the US. Quantities? I did see one advertiser offering one ounce bottles for about five bucks, but one ounce isn't going to last very long. My lubricators, while oversize, take more than that, but I'll be pumping oil to two 2"x 3" cylinders. Then there were any number of sites discussing or offering Valvata or J460, whatever that number means. I did notice another, Shell Vitrea, which was listed as being "OK" for steam engines up to 500 HP.


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## Steamchick (Dec 28, 2021)

Hi Byron,
Odd comments. The shaft and bearing sizes for generators and turbines are always relatively small compared to crankshaft bearings..., simply because that is all you need for a well balanced genrator or turbine where all loads are radial or torsional. Bigger bearings just SLOW DOWN the turbine. They may also overheat and explode at the turbine speeds for an efficient engine.
If you get a good cyclone oil separator for the steam exhaust, and have a condenser after that there should be very little moisture coming from the exhaust into the atmosphere. Oil condenses onto aerosols of water while the steam is mostly still steam (in the engine), the separator should get hot but separate that emulisfied gunge from the steam, mostly. Then condensing steam with the water vapour that is left should give de-ionised condensate for recycling - for pumping back into the boiler. That's how they did it at sea, when all around was salty water...UGH! I do it on my model boats... You could always add an extra - easy clean - filter on the final exhaust to atmosphere, to save the decor and air-con filters.
K2


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## ajoeiam (Dec 28, 2021)

Did a lookee see on the intersweb to see what I could find for availability. 

There seem to be some other options besides the Shell Valvata. 
Chevron Cylinder Oil W460   5 us gal 
Phillips 66 Compouinded Gear Oil 460 
Mobil 600W Super Cylinder Oil 

(taken from Shell Valvata J 77 Equivalent  )


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## Bentwings (Dec 28, 2021)

wazrus said:


> Byron
> I had a kelpie and, being in Australia. this was the ideal dog for anywhere. GP dog. General -purpose, low-maintenance dog, Would run all day in any conditions.
> My Valvata sits in my shed. I you were a little closer, we could do a deal. Yes, 55 gallons is a bit over the top and when I bought my 5 gals, _that_ was much more than I'd ever use. I haven't checked, but I will look at Shell to see if it's still available.


A lady I trained with had akelpie, it was a fun dog. They were usually across the training ring from us. We did quite a bit of things together. Also at herding training the trainer had a Helpie as one of her herd of dogs. The poor sheep had their wool run off them between our two dogs. The dog didn’t get along too well together. Aussies can be pretty vocal and both being female liked to “talk” a loti think Aussies are a bit more physical in their tactics. The big ram weighed300 pounds. I’m not a rancher and have not had much farm training myself. The ram was an only ornery critter and would not stay with the herd .the Kelpie would shag it all over to get him back. My Aussie took things into her own hands and pulled that ram right down to the ground and ripped about 5 pounds of wool out while the trainer was getting them apart.  My gir came from a large ranch here in the states so was well used to cows and horses the big ram was a lot tamer aft that. . I had to regime her as I didn’t know how long I’d last after I got out of the hospital and none of the family was into dogs like I was. She went to the trainer from the training school so she went to a very good hom and is doing well. I gave a list of about 75 commands that she knew and used.    My kitty is my house pet laying at my feet now.
I’ll continue looking into some other brands that had steam oil. This used to be a big rail area especially up north where the iron range is. Duluth is a large port on the Great Lakes. Klotz is a big name in two stroke stuff and has an oil with castor in it that I used in my Rc planes for a long time there is also an amzoil dealer not far away. Not had much luck with him however.  
I just looked at the weather and we are supposed to get -17 deg F in a couple days so I’ll put the castor out on the deck overnight and see how it pours.
Thanks for the info.
I’m working on my boiler design.
Byron


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## Andy Munns (Dec 28, 2021)

On our steamships (Sydney Heritage Fleet) we use Morris 680  cylinder oil non-compounded (vital as condensate is returned to the boiler. If not using condensate as feed, use a compounded oil.)

We use Morris 460 bearing oil for external steam engine bearings. The emulsions are essential and intentional as they mean that vital oil is not washed away by water plus water is retained for cooling. We used Valvata and 600W in the past. We also buy in industrial quantities but would certainly help out a local enthusiast, so perhaps ask around at your local steam museum... Steam hobby shops will also sell and ship small quantities of compounded cylinder oil and bearing oil for steam engines. 

We use Shell Turbo 68 for enclosed crankcase steam engines.

Then, if running engines only on compressed air, suggest air tool oil would be the optimal choice and should be available at any tool shop.


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## Bentwings (Dec 29, 2021)

Andy Munns said:


> On our steamships (Sydney Heritage Fleet) we use Morris 680  cylinder oil non-compounded (vital as condensate is returned to the boiler. If not using condensate as feed, use a compounded oil.)
> 
> We use Morris 460 bearing oil for external steam engine bearings. The emulsions are essential and intentional as they mean that vital oil is not washed away by water plus water is retained for cooling. We used Valvata and 600W in the past. We also buy in industrial quantities but would certainly help out a local enthusiast, so perhaps ask around at your local steam museum... Steam hobby shops will also sell and ship small quantities of compounded cylinder oil and bearing oil for steam engines.
> 
> ...


You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now .  Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed  some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think  the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my  old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things .  Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 29, 2021)

wazrus said:


> Byron
> I just finished Googling Shell Valvata and it is indeed still available, certainly in the US. Quantities? I did see one advertiser offering one ounce bottles for about five bucks, but one ounce isn't going to last very long. My lubricators, while oversize, take more than that, but I'll be pumping oil to two 2"x 3" cylinders. Then there were any number of sites discussing or offering Valvata or J460, whatever that number means. I did notice another, Shell Vitrea, which was listed as being "OK" for steam engines up to 500 HP.





Bentwings said:


> You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now .  Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed  some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think  the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my  old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
> I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things .  Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning
> Byron


I just looked in my freezer. The crud I veggie oil I frozen solid by the castor might still pour if you give it long enough I’ll open them later and take pictures. I don’t intend to operate my steamer out doors in the freezing winter. It -12 belowF going down to -17 tonight. Yikes hope my water line doesn’t freeze.  Back when the steam engines ran in the ore mines I remember it being really cold. I suppose the oiler kept his squirt can in the engine cab but the trains did buck snow drifts . There was probably enough residual heat that they never got cold . It’s cold in the house now so I’m continuing looking at a preheat system. It will be easy to add a fitting and line before the boiler is done but now will be the time to plan it.  PM REsearch has a lot of steam related items.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 29, 2021)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks I’ll check out the lock oil. I wonder what special properties it has other than thin .  One thing that comes from turning lots of nuts snd bolts over the years is never seize . I use it on every thing. The finish is so smooth on these little motors that there isn’t much “tooth” for it to fill into but on the racer wrist pins it really cuts down on wear and tear it’s more a matter of the parts being deformed by the massive loads of nitro than scuffing main and rod bearings last a run at best if the rest of the motor is still in one piece . You can’t imagine the cost of parts on just one run .  A loaded piston with tool steel wrist pins is over $300 this year  I’m glad I’ve retired from that sport . Anew supercharger is more than a new corvette  they will have a whole row of them in the trailers .
> byron


I got a whole bag of syringes with the hooked end. They will be perfect for the spot oiling. I’ll try some different oils too. Air tool oil always worked on them . So did marvel mystery oil.
The main bearing caps have oil holes in the top I’ll probably be able to yak them off they are kinda like automotive insert bearing with out the inserts. Unfortunately they don’t have a ositivevlocator. I’m sure this is so you can easily replace them if the bearing get worn.  You just have to be careful when reinstalling them not to crest binding in the crankshaft . I’ll look more closely when assembling. It’s something the do note in the assembly instructions .

good pint about the turbine shafts I had not considered that  they only have a grooved small pulley on them , not a flywheel . I’ll play safe and do the same . I got some boat shaft joints today. They were all I could find that would fit  I can get 5/64 I’d brass tube at the hobby shop I’m not sure if there is metric tubing k & s makes the metals rack so I’ll look on their site  I agree on the bearings I’ll have to see how much steam it takes to run these things the price has gone up twice since I ordered them  I just saw another with a gearbox add on my master has brassspur gear rod that is pretty cheap. Plus’s they have a couple plastic spur gears that could be used to make a gear reduction if necessary.I may have to make my own coupler from brass round stock . A pretty easy lathe project

Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 29, 2021)

Bentwings said:


> You ought to see the castor snd cooking oil input in the freezer. I take pictures tomorrow. It will have s 24 soak by then . Both are almost solid now .  Yeah I looked at air tool oil and thought it might be ok. I’ve used lots of it and never had any air tools stop working from lack of lube . I’m also considering adding a preset to the oil for the lubricator. I wish I could see more volume of air or steam going through the tubricstor. There is not a lot of volume at 20-30 psi operating pressure I’m not really sure how to do the lube air tools use a lot of air I’m almost thinking a high vol through a preheated but I’ll need to examine how the thing works at low speed  some kind of loop circuit is what I’m thinking. Maybe just over thinking . The slide valves and pistons get the oil first but the main bearing will have drip or oil can feed. I’ll have to see how all this works out. These little engines have a lot of moving parts the turbines only have ball bearings with no seals so they should work fine as I’ll run them on exhaust steam that should have relatively more lube in it . Again I’ll have to really look closely. I’d sure like to run without a lot of wear and tear. My boiler is 14” long 4” of so pretty high capacity for this engine . I don’t even know what would be a good operating pressure and temp. I’m thinking max pressure of 120 psi that should be around 25 deg F I think  the hoop stress is way within limits I’ll have rooms for two electric immersion heater one is 750 watts the other is 1500 watts. I have to make sure what my home circuits can handle I haven’t piped s breaker since I moved in 2 1/2?years ago . I don’t cook much that I can’t microwave and the computers don’t take much. The ever present coffee pot is on most of the day and I’ll be having my  old electric blanket on but only had of it works. It’s just a foot warmer as the floor is cold due to the door leaking .
> I just got a new digital multi meter so I can test things .  Kitty wants me to go to bed so I’ll be back in the morning
> Byron


I just thought of something. I wonder what the dentist uses in his air drill. Maybe water . You can buy these turbines relatively inexpensive. Also I did see the handles too they are like a mini dremel tool  they may use an air bearing too . I ran a big Cincinnati ID grinder that used air bearings. I don’t remember how fast it was but you had to wear ear muffs the whole shift running that monster . It was capable of incredibly close tolerance and finish, especially with the diamond and cubic born wheels. The ground carbide ironing dies that made beverage cans   An air gage was used for sizing . I don’t remember the tolerance but there were lots of 0’s   Close temperature control was required  too. 
byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 30, 2021)

I found some model steam companies have small bottles bout 4 oz or so it’s petty expensiv for quantity

Did find one that has qts. I think it was about $23 . I forgot to save he site I’ll go back and try to find it. All were called stem oil 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Dec 30, 2021)

I think air tol oil probably would be good on compressed air operation it’s thin but I honk the line lubricator will be ok even at lo flows. I’ll investigate te  that as I put my system together. Im curious as most of the time air tools fun full throttle when irking. When only 30-40 psi is usd nd small volume there may not be a lot of oil n the flowing air. So fr im also thinking that an oil preheat may be necessary to mak the steam oil disperse better. It would not be hard to add this feature in my boiler build now but. Real pain if it has o be added later. I guess that’s what pipe plugs were made for.LOL 

I JUS GOT M LITLE INFRA RED HEAT TEMP GUN. I tried it earlier outdid and it was right on he weathevreport 12 deg f I’ll try it on my castor and veggie oil samples later I know the veggie is nearly solid in the frig freezer castor looks like dep woods maple syrup sap.
The two turbines shoul be good separators. They have good size exit ports. I can make a nice condenser that can be taken apart to clean.  
As far as hose and lines go the AN4 is a good size. The hose is steam capable snd realy neat fittings that don’t leak are available. They are easy to assemble if you use the right technique. I’ve made lots of them. Gasoline and alcohol will get to the hose but takes years. So I’m not worried about durability. There is copper line hat looked good but it always seems to get bent in the wrong place then looks terrible. Stainless brake line looks good but it’s difficult to work with we do have flaring tool and cutters buts it’s subject to bends too.  Well that’s lol down the road for now  I’ll finish up my sketches tonight and we can possibly start machining after the 1st. 
byron


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## Steamchick (Dec 31, 2021)

Hi Byron, I suggest you don't use Steam oil with compressed air, niether use AIR tool oil with Steam... 
For your other oils in the freezer, check the melt temperature (when about half melted) then later, check (or maybe on the label?) check the boiling point (at atmospheric pressure) for the oils? Oil passing through the engine in compressed air is in droplets. 
Oil passing through the engine with STEAM  may well be at a higher temperature that the boiling point of the oil at atmospheric pressure, but may not vapourise - due to the steam pressure. Therefore it too will be in droplet form. 
However, superheated steam may be hot enough to vapourise the oil (I am sure my boilers give that sort of temperature!) in which case, the oil enters the engine as vapour, then condenses onto cooler surfaces (inside the engine) and onto water vapour droplets that form as the steam expands and cools. Either way, the internal surfaces are well lubricated with the tiniest amount of oil.
In an internal combustion engine, the oil does a great deal of its work in cooling hot parts (e.g. the skirts and underside of pistons, cams, followers, valve springs, etc.) and subsequently carrying this heat away to where it can find cooler places to pass-on the heat  (oil cooler or sump?), as it circulates within the chambers of the engine.
Your model steam engine isn't doing that, so only needs adequate oil for lubricating the piston & piston rod, piston rings, valves & rods, and fixed surfaces that these component rub against.
Cheers,
K2


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## Bentwings (Dec 31, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, I suggest you don't use Steam oil with compressed air, niether use AIR tool oil with Steam...
> For your other oils in the freezer, check the melt temperature (when about half melted) then later, check (or maybe on the label?) check the boiling point (at atmospheric pressure) for the oils? Oil passing through the engine in compressed air is in droplets.
> Oil passing through the engine with STEAM  may well be at a higher temperature that the boiling point of the oil at atmospheric pressure, but may not vapourise - due to the steam pressure. Therefore it too will be in droplet form.
> However, superheated steam may be hot enough to vapourise the oil (I am sure my boilers give that sort of temperature!) in which case, the oil enters the engine as vapour, then condenses onto cooler surfaces (inside the engine) and onto water vapour droplets that form as the steam expands and cools. Either way, the internal surfaces are well lubricated with the tiniest amount of oil.
> ...


thanks. That’s really good information. I thought maybe air tool oil nmight be good. I suspect marvel oil would be good. We use it in air tools quit a bit with no trouble. I’m concerned that thicker oil might not be really vaporized as the actual volume probably won’t be that great. They said the engine will run on about 20 psi so unless tiny amounts can be passed through small nozzles it’s going to be hard to get much oil in the air stream. Air tools often run wide open. For example a small sander or cut off tool. I can get very small feed restrictors for carbs on cars. I may still have a collection of them but even these aren’t going to do much unless there is pressure from the air supply . I’m considering a oil preheat tube running through the boiler so the lube oil is pretty hot and thin.  The intake port blows directly on the slide valve wrist pin and guide slot so it will be constantly in what ever air flow there is. I’ll take the lubricator apart just to see exactly how it works. The main bearings and slide vale crankshaft bearings are drip feed or squirt can ( syringe) I’d rather not use a brush so there is less chance of hairs getting in the bearings. My kitty leave tiny hairs floating all over they get in your nose and glasses. I double she will hang around when the machine is running but hairs are everywhere it’s not like dog hair more like dandelion puffs. The vacuum cleaner hardly shows anything but it’s there. It was 35 deg F in the freezer today. Seems like it should be less. The ice cream is rock hard. I think the back of the freezer is colder. Now that I have a new heat gun I can measure everything. It even came with an emissivity. Chart and conversion table.  When I order the engine I’ll get a small bottle of steam oil for initial assembly . I have to look back but I think PM research had the quart available.  I also found my son has both AN 3 and AN 4 fittings and both braided fuel hose and braided Teflon hose I’ll have to make 1/4 40 TPI ME adaptors but that’s not hard . I’m still having a hard time finding good taps and dies without purchasing a big set. I have to get an extension cord so I can hook up the heater. Then I’ll try it befor committing to the boiler build . The 1500 watt should be here next eeek . There is a lot of stuff to get when you are just starting a new hobby . I haven’t even started on the mounting plate or floor as I’ll call it as it will be to simulate mill floors making it laminated at scale size means a lot of small strips of wood.  I have a white plastic plate for now. Kitty just came and indicated it’s bet time so untill tomorrow good night. Have a safe new year.

byton


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## wazrus (Jan 1, 2022)

We are on the subject of specialised oils/lubrication and I had, not long ago, bought a small vacuum pump, as I had intended to some silicone moulding and casting. Again, researching the 'net, i found some very specific 'Javac high performance vacuum pump oil': that's verbatim from the label. I had no ideas, one way or another, so I bought some and it wasn't expensive. It is, however, _very_ specific. There is a data sheet available from Javac.com.au. I haven't looked at the sheet, and the oil's characteristics are a mystery. But at least I think I've got the 'right' stuff!
Also, too, i have used the AN type fittings with saturated steam and they seem to be OK., but I'll be scrapping the 'flexibles' anyway, so that's a bit of a non-event.


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## Bentwings (Jan 1, 2022)

wazrus said:


> We are on the subject of specialised oils/lubrication and I had, not long ago, bought a small vacuum pump, as I had intended to some silicone moulding and casting. Again, researching the 'net, i found some very specific 'Javac high performance vacuum pump oil': that's verbatim from the label. I had no ideas, one way or another, so I bought some and it wasn't expensive. It is, however, _very_ specific. There is a data sheet available from Javac.com.au. I haven't looked at the sheet, and the oil's characteristics are a mystery. But at least I think I've got the 'right' stuff!
> Also, too, i have used the AN type fittings with saturated steam and they seem to be OK., but I'll be scrapping the 'flexibles' anyway, so that's a bit of a non-event.


I have vac pump I use for AC auto work. It does take vac oil. I know from the very high vac systems I worked with in industry there were very specific vac oils. Moisture in a vac system is not good there were rules about how vacs were used most were used in dry rooms with humidity about 1% is so nobody got sick as germ can’t live in this your skin gets dried out too there were specific skin lotions available. Moisture conten again monitored. These rooms had timited number of visits per day  fussy stuff in R&D labs.

byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 1, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I have vac pump I use for AC auto work. It does take vac oil. I know from the very high vac systems I worked with in industry there were very specific vac oils. Moisture in a vac system is not good there were rules about how vacs were used most were used in dry rooms with humidity about 1% is so nobody got sick as germ can’t live in this your skin gets dried out too there were specific skin lotions available. Moisture conten again monitored. These rooms had timited number of visits per day  fussy stuff in R&D labs.
> 
> byron


It’s -12 F out side even cool in the house wind chill is pas -30 deg . I have to go for walk later hopefully it will warm up a little or wind will go down . Fortunately I have winter jacket and new gloves . I suppose I could were Covid mask. Might actually be useful for something .LOL  I already shoveled the walk yesterday maybe a quick broom to warm up today.
Byron


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## wazrus (Jan 2, 2022)

Byron
I'll swap our 30 degrees-plus (C) for a bit of your cold. Summer has been a bit cooler here than usual, but there are still two to three months of heat and we can usually rely upon a few 'stinkers'.


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## Bentwings (Feb 25, 2022)

That’s good news. I have a small bottle of steam oil I ordered with the kit. PMResearch has larger watts if need here in the USA.
I’m still working on the boiler I’ve had several weeks of company then the weather turned brutally cold snd piles of snow so I’ve been side tracked. I’ve been rethinking how the boiler works. I have to admit I realy have little knowledge except what I’ve learned here I’m beginning self education. Like going back to eng college now being my own professor.
I’ve learned that what is commonly called steam is only hot vapor. Steam has some very interesting properties hen heated and pressurized I becomes a very different animal . I’m now looking into an add on super heater. This will be to dry out the heated vapor and effectively increase its heat or energy content.as I’ve noted I simply can not have flame in my hour so I’m gravitatingvtoward induction heating . I’ve now found several relatively high power units needing only inductance coils. So I’m looking into this as it’s relatively inexpensive and something I can work on without going out to my sons shop some 65 miles away I’m currently looking at super heating air from the air compressor. It’s to be contained in a much higher pressure vessel or tank. Advantage being compact size and electrically operated. Now I’m into even more unknown technology. I was learning about making my own unit but I just found a numbe of power supplies that only requir winding an inductance coil . It will use less house power than the boiler yet give clean hot air. I’ll probably switch to standard oiler aid continue with drip oil as needed. Still planing 

byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 25, 2022)

Hi Byron. I am curious about the induction heater.... I guess you have the coil outside the pipework containing the gas, and the pipework is insulated to contain the heat generated in the pipework - hence gas - is transmitted through the insulation via the electro-magnetic field from the coils. What is wrong with a resistance heater inside the pressurised gas? Or, if the induction heater can be put inside the pressurised gas, and the external electro- magnetic field then heats the containment vessel inside the thermal insulation, you can combine the logic of both...?
But, electric cookers use radiant elements, as the top rings or grill, which can run on a controlled (by the simple simmerstat cooker control knob), or lower voltage, so are not overheated, inside a tube full of gas at pressure....  The elements use an inert electrical insulation (powder) inside tubes that should take some pressure (do your research?). So easy to make and set-up to domestic mains? 2 kW should plug into the mains without any problem...?
And I reckon that the 50hz/60hz mains is the wrong frequency for an induction heater...? Do you need a frequency converter and current control?
I have only experienced a process with induction hardening... where parts (forgings) have ground shafts induction hardened by inserting the shaft (not body) of the part into a coil and a few seconds or minute of high frequency passed through the coils. I think the frequency was a tuned to the max heating of the part (steel), and the winding heavy copper so low resistance, and relatively low inductance? - but high current. Not a domestic heater!
So please can to expand on how and why "induction heating"?
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 25, 2022)

I’m in a learning phase about induction heaters. My electric boiler is not completed yet. It has two immersion heaters with room for a third if necessary. The idea of an external induction heater came from the fact that my  boiler is electric so I really don’t have capability of superheating or adding lots of energy quickly . I quickly found that immersion heater don’t last long when run dry or not submerged. I’d like to just let pressure build thus creating much higher temp in the steam dome but I really don’t want to order stress my boiler so I’ve come up with a smaller but much stronger superheater that is external this will be thick wall seamless steel tubing most likely TIG welded. I’m going out to a friends shop where my TIG welder is located. I have a vision issue that makes everything very difficult. Like just this typing . I’ve been practicing some welding motions that I used to take for granted in my working days. I think I can successfully do some TIG work if I’m careful and have some pro evaluation . Anyway it will be another test for me. Of course the superheater will be tested well above expected operating pressures I’ve done this before and we have hydraulics to do this. Super heated steam can be very dangerous so I’ll be doing extreme care. Yes the system will be well insulated as will the connections they will all be steam rated even though they cost more. I just found a series of induction heaters in the power range I was considering building . I may still build as I like doing this. I’m planning on heating the air compressor output more as a test bu I think it will work .  I’m righ in the middle of assembling my steamer nd now must go out and shovel snow for a bit. I’ll be back later
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 28, 2022)

I asked the same question about running the immersion heater inside the “super heater” but the immersion heaters don’t live long when run without some liquid cooling.  I know a gas is realy a fluid too but it is what it is.  I’m working on some way to cause the internal gas to flow around at first I was just going to use a labyrinth passage but that way too complicated.  I plan on using stainless steel 1/4” brake line and SAE or AN FITTINGS  so I can make a circuitous path for incoming air/gas I just don’t know how fast heat transfer will occur. Stainless is poor in this respect but excellent in strength especially in heat. I don’t feel comfortable with copper unless someone can convince me otherwise the stainless is pretty easy to bend and flair I thought about just silver brazing tubing straight through with external bends as needed the gas would go through as it is pulled out in use . I can see some type of manifold but I’d like to keep it as easy as possible fittings are easy to set up and I have flair and bender available. I YHINK I realy opened a can of worms here maybe I should just rethink the boiler idea and go with a steel one at higher pressure then take real steam out of the dome . I still have to use the immersion heaters but I could possibly operate at higher temp and pressure. It somewhat depends on just how fast the immersion heater can heat they heat a bucket of water up pretty fast but it’s only producing hot vapor my coffe pot works pretty hard to make a pot of hot coffe and that’s not realy boiling. It does produce a limited amount of boiled water but barely enough for morning coffee. LOL  I guess I’ll just have to experiment I’m still assembling the engines the rod cap screws are m2 so really small I have to use a drill bit to locat the cap while I put a screw in the other side. So far it’s going fine with no stickyness . I even managed to use some Teflon tape for packing the piston guide rod . I’ll try to find prongs for that not every one has m3 I’d Teflon o rings. The tape seems ok as I can tighten it and feel the drag. 
byron


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2022)

Hi Byron,
You seem to be confused, I think? Higher pressure boiler steam is always "wet" like lower pressure boiler steam... The point is, it is where the water is boiling. Superheated steam has the temperature elevated (and consequently pressure) without adding more water (latent heat of vaporisation), so MUST be in a zone where there is no free water. Your idea of a separate container plumbed into the steam pipe between the boiler and engine seems OK to me? - with the separate heater (and controls?) and the steam will take the heat away from the heater very efficiently, as it passes across the heater element, thus becoming superheated.
But I see a likely problem. And I think you should tackle some sums - or ask someone to do that for you. You are talking about heaters that boil water for a cup of coffee, or a bucket of water for a bath, or whatever. But with some simple sums, you can decide what size of heater to use. And anyway, your mains supply can only safely deliver a limited number of kW to any device. So check the mains limitation first, then tell me the bore and stroke of the engine (bore of 14 mm stroke 18 mm? ), number of cylinders (4), double acting, engine speed planned (1000rpm?), and we can do some simple sums. As you are on a few threads, I am not sure what engine you finally bought.
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 1, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron,
> You seem to be confused, I think? Higher pressure boiler steam is always "wet" like lower pressure boiler steam... The point is, it is where the water is boiling. Superheated steam has the temperature elevated (and consequently pressure) without adding more water (latent heat of vaporisation), so MUST be in a zone where there is no free water. Your idea of a separate container plumbed into the steam pipe between the boiler and engine seems OK to me? - with the separate heater (and controls?) and the steam will take the heat away from the heater very efficiently, as it passes across the heater element, thus becoming superheated.
> But I see a likely problem. And I think you should tackle some sums - or ask someone to do that for you. You are talking about heaters that boil water for a cup of coffee, or a bucket of water for a bath, or whatever. But with some simple sums, you can decide what size of heater to use. And anyway, your mains supply can only safely deliver a limited number of kW to any device. So check the mains limitation first, then tell me the bore and stroke of the engine (bore of 14 mm stroke 18 mm? ), number of cylinders (4), double acting, engine speed planned (1000rpm?), and we can do some simple sums. As you are on a few threads, I am not sure what engine you finally bought.
> K2


Bore is 14 mm stroke 18 mm double acting  I’m picking 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm . I’ll have an air compressor thurs evening 2 gall tank 135 psi available 2.1 cut per min at 90 psi rated.
My proposed super heater is to take boiler steam out of a dome , more stack like in appearance at this point . I can see some condensation being removed as the steam vapor is being heated  the super heater will have blow off capability so the moisture can be removed . My thinking. As long as pressure and temp remain high enough there should be only dry steam as long as taken ou high enough . The super heater will be  pretty heavy duty . 3/16 wall 4130 is very strong  from hydraulic stand point.  Most likely I’ll try to maintain about 150 deg F if that is enough the unit will be independent of he main boiler using a check valve to admit boiler steam when pressure drops. At least this is my thought. I can be all wrong here as I’m not steam educated yet. I don’t really like this external idea as it introduces new mechanics and electronics obviously complexities the limitation of electric only is hampering me I believe but. Have no choice. Actually my though is to take relatively dry air from the compressor and heat it adding energy by using the inductance heater . As the heated air is used by the engines the energy gets converted into expanded volume this air would be oiled or treated as real steam since I think it will be essentially dried by the heating process. The kill condensate can be evacuated by blow off  with by preset check valve or manually in other words at a certain higher pressure the checknvalv would open and clear any condensate. This would be very hot just as RR BOILERS ARE  it would go into a condensate container . The steam world call these economist or condenser I think . That’s my though . Again I may be wet steam here so help me If ossible.  Guess the way I see it the fire box is an external superheater. What I’m proposing is just a different way to achieve the heated dry steam .  I’m right in the middle of assembling these two engines  I just stepped on the #51 drill bit I dropped on the carpet last night so I now have red condensate coming out of my foot I’m installing a special check valve called a bandaide with some owdered  sealant. 
Dang that hurt . 
I want to try and get nearly complete assembly today

byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 1, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Bore is 14 mm stroke 18 mm double acting  I’m picking 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm . I’ll have an air compressor thurs evening 2 gall tank 135 psi available 2.1 cut per min at 90 psi rated.
> My proposed super heater is to take boiler steam out of a dome , more stack like in appearance at this point . I can see some condensation being removed as the steam vapor is being heated  the super heater will have blow off capability so the moisture can be removed . My thinking. As long as pressure and temp remain high enough there should be only dry steam as long as taken ou high enough . The super heater will be  pretty heavy duty . 3/16 wall 4130 is very strong  from hydraulic stand point.  Most likely I’ll try to maintain about 150 deg F if that is enough the unit will be independent of he main boiler using a check valve to admit boiler steam when pressure drops. At least this is my thought. I can be all wrong here as I’m not steam educated yet. I don’t really like this external idea as it introduces new mechanics and electronics obviously complexities the limitation of electric only is hampering me I believe but. Have no choice. Actually my though is to take relatively dry air from the compressor and heat it adding energy by using the inductance heater . As the heated air is used by the engines the energy gets converted into expanded volume this air would be oiled or treated as real steam since I think it will be essentially dried by the heating process. The kill condensate can be evacuated by blow off  with by preset check valve or manually in other words at a certain higher pressure the checknvalv would open and clear any condensate. This would be very hot just as RR BOILERS ARE  it would go into a condensate container . The steam world call these economist or condenser I think . That’s my though . Again I may be wet steam here so help me If ossible.  Guess the way I see it the fire box is an external superheater. What I’m proposing is just a different way to achieve the heated dry steam .  I’m right in the middle of assembling these two engines  I just stepped on the #51 drill bit I dropped on the carpet last night so I now have red condensate coming out of my foot I’m installing a special check valve called a bandaide with some owdered  sealant.
> Dang that hurt .
> I want to try and get nearly complete assembly today
> ...


sorry I had to go back and read your questions I have the chilertern quad mill engine . It’s actually two twins connected together with a common flywheel . I was going to chang this but I got the flywheel to run true with the lineup rod through all the bearings so the assembly is ok for now I’ll eventually mount them on a tooling plate then the display floor.  I want to be able to run various generators snd motors so the particle board is ok for now.  I’m making an outer support bearing as one end of the crankshafts s longer so it overhangs some  one is offered but it’s for the verticals mount quad system I have a self aligning bearing ready for mounting . This will just give added support to belt or gear drives and take load off the outer main bearing .  Each main cap has a hole for an oiler so I’ll make cups for them as none that size are available. Other size I have both steam oil and machine oil  in syringes I’ll add the steam displacement oiler when I’m ready for steaming .  So fr it’s going together ok it’s just loaded with really small parts m2 rod cap screws m3 for most every thing else . I have two tap and drill sets for these as well as the 1/4 40 TPI ME tap . Die and drill set


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2022)

Hi Byron. Sorry to be blunt, but You are missing the point. Dry steam is above the condensation temperature for the pressure....
Wet steam is AT the condesation temperature for the pressure. So the moment the wet steam expands, say down a feed pipe, into a valve chamber, down an internal pipe or into a cylinder, then the pressure drops (even a tiny amount) and water vapour naturally forms. This is so the released latent heat of vaporisation can provide the work to move the gas along the pipework, etc.
Putting extra heat into the "Wet" steam (superheating), raises the temperature of the steam, and this extra heat means the steam can get through the system before condensation takes place. Most necessary for turbines, but still very advantageous for reciprocating engines.
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2022)

Hi Byron, I have just been on the Chiltern website, and spotted their electric boiler. It has a 70 heater, is set to reach 50 psi max., and they say will just steam a single cylinder engine.
Your 4 cylinders need at least 4 times that = 2800W. Can you power that from your 110V supply?
And that is just for free running, not powering a dynamo. So I guess you'll need more wattage in your heaters.
But that is just my first guess.
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 1, 2022)

Hi again Byron, Hope you have stopped the leak from your foot, and it has been thoroughly cleaned and steriolised.... I would not want to hear you have foot rot and need to make a new one in stainless, or some-such!
Back to your engines.
Looks like they are made for 60 psi. MAXIMUM. So do not apply more air pressure than that. You do not want to break anything, bend a con-rod, etc.
Chiltern specify their double burner 5 inch boiler for the twin cylinder vertical engine (same parts as yours) in boats. Therefore I estimate 3 to 4 kW of gas power is being supplied to heat the water, make steam and superheat the steam.
Do you have a boiler design that has that much electrical heating - or twice as much - as you are proposing to take dynamo power, as well as having 4 cylinders to feed with steam? And do you have the electrical supply?
Maybe this will be running in your workshop, not your apartment?
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 1, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron. Sorry to be blunt, but You are missing the point. Dry steam is above the condensation temperature for the pressure....
> Wet steam is AT the condesation temperature for the pressure. So the moment the wet steam expands, say down a feed pipe, into a valve chamber, down an internal pipe or into a cylinder, then the pressure drops (even a tiny amount) and water vapour naturally forms. This is so the released latent heat of vaporisation can provide the work to move the gas along the pipework, etc.
> Putting extra heat into the "Wet" steam (superheating), raises the temperature of the steam, and this extra heat means the steam can get through the system before condensation takes place. Most necessary for turbines, but still very advantageous for reciprocating engines.
> K2


lease don’t worry about offending me I’m looking for information. I’m in a totally new piece of engineering. This is my new hobby. Since I really can’t get around like I’m used to.   I YHINK im getting a better picture of what’s happening . Im hoping this external super heat does what i am expecting . Im going to try and get even more powerful heat capability. I have to be careful not to over load my home circuits too. I wish I had 120 easily accessible like a dryer outlet. There are two separate circuits so I YHINK im ok so far. I’ll probably have to unplug my coffee pot or maybe I can channel some radiant heat from all this steam stuff. LOL I understand hat if there is boiling water  at standard pressure and 100c or 212F there will be wet steam essentially ally hot  moist air or plain H2O gas it isn’t untill the temp and pressure of this gets high enough to cause only invisible steam.  In other words if a “ power” port or line to the engines  is taken in this area there will be dry steam not hot vapor unless the line gets cooled. I think I saw some where there was a certain max  % of water in the steam for it to be considered dry steam . There was a term  noted also.   So if the elevated temp and pressure steam is vented you will get the invisible real steam and surrounding air i with is relative humidity will condense and become visible white wet steam we see coming off the boiling of  of water on the stove.  Now this is where I think I’m lacking and needing help under standing . 
I just found some steam tables yikes I’ve got lots of catching up to do. I’m having a hard time just asking a question. Obviously super heated steam at some pressure /temp will have a lot of energy. So if my little engines will run 10 minutes on 2 gallons of air in the compressor tank before the pressure gets to some value say 40 psi from starting at115 psi if the super heater tank has 100 cu in at 250 psi , the little engine will be in serious need of lubrication before the SH tank gets to 40 psi due to the massive unit of heat energy how to calculate this will take time and knowledge I don’t have yet. I found a calculator on line that does in seconds if it’s the right one . I want to watch the state of union speach so I’ll sit bak for a few minutes then come back andpost this calculator . Maybe I’m just wet steam. I’d like to test this exercise if I can get everything working I’ll post a couple assembly pictures too . 
byron


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## HMEL (Mar 2, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Bore is 14 mm stroke 18 mm double acting  I’m picking 1000 rpm or 2000 rpm . I’ll have an air compressor thurs evening 2 gall tank 135 psi available 2.1 cut per min at 90 psi rated.
> My proposed super heater is to take boiler steam out of a dome , more stack like in appearance at this point . I can see some condensation being removed as the steam vapor is being heated  the super heater will have blow off capability so the moisture can be removed . My thinking. As long as pressure and temp remain high enough there should be only dry steam as long as taken ou high enough . The super heater will be  pretty heavy duty . 3/16 wall 4130 is very strong  from hydraulic stand point.  Most likely I’ll try to maintain about 150 deg F if that is enough the unit will be independent of he main boiler using a check valve to admit boiler steam when pressure drops. At least this is my thought. I can be all wrong here as I’m not steam educated yet. I don’t really like this external idea as it introduces new mechanics and electronics obviously complexities the limitation of electric only is hampering me I believe but. Have no choice. Actually my though is to take relatively dry air from the compressor and heat it adding energy by using the inductance heater . As the heated air is used by the engines the energy gets converted into expanded volume this air would be oiled or treated as real steam since I think it will be essentially dried by the heating process. The kill condensate can be evacuated by blow off  with by preset check valve or manually in other words at a certain higher pressure the checknvalv would open and clear any condensate. This would be very hot just as RR BOILERS ARE  it would go into a condensate container . The steam world call these economist or condenser I think . That’s my though . Again I may be wet steam here so help me If ossible.  Guess the way I see it the fire box is an external superheater. What I’m proposing is just a different way to achieve the heated dry steam .  I’m right in the middle of assembling these two engines  I just stepped on the #51 drill bit I dropped on the carpet last night so I now have red condensate coming out of my foot I’m installing a special check valve called a bandaide with some owdered  sealant.
> Dang that hurt .
> I want to try and get nearly complete assembly today
> ...


I would like to clear up some misconceptions on steam.  Steam can be classified as saturated or super-heated.  Both property states can exist at the same pressure except super-heated steam has the higher temperature. There are tables which define the temperatures at various pressures.  Its not unusual to specify the operational pressure and the degrees of superheat the boiler is designed to produce. Basically anything above the saturation temperature is defined as superheated.

Now wet steam primarily arises in the boilers from condensate and water being entrained in the steam. To remove the water particles cyclone separators are install either on the outside of the boiler or inside the boiler drum to remove as much of the water particles as possible. The discharge of the cyclone or condensate it captures is discharged back to the boiler.  Many ways to do this.  The design of the cyclones take some care.. But after seeing some of the model boilers being built many do not have cyclones or superheaters.

Its a little hard to maintain saturated steam in a system but not impossible.  If its critical to have dry steam the steam is passed through a superheater. There are marine systems which have separately fired superheaters.  So your idea of an induction heater is workable and an interesting idea.  What I suggest you do is run the steam tubing down the center of your induction coil and the walls of the tubing will stay hot. Kind of the same process as heating a bearing to install on a shaft except the boiler tube is now the part being heated with a magnetic flux. To keep it hot you might wrap the assembly with high temp insulation say something like rock wool. You could most likely hold a specified temperature very easily.  

I do hope that foot of yours heals. Its not something to ignore.  Take care
HMEL


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## Steamchick (Mar 2, 2022)

HMEL  you have an explanation I understand, and sounds correct. But maybe you can clarify a point, as I may be a bit off-beam?
I am not a professional Steam expert, nor trained, just use my Physics and Engineering experience  to "work it out".
In my understanding, any steam that carries some water vapour is considered "wet". So when the steam collected from a steam dome (even if "no" droplets of water are carried over) is expanded into a feed pipe, it can only have the entropy of the temperature of the water in the boiler and latent heat (entropy) of the conversion to steam. So any heat loss, e.g. through the lagging of the pipework, or pressure drop (even if only a fraction of a psi) must come from the total entropy, which means some steam will lose the latent heat to form vapour (aerosol droplets of water). I.E. "Wet" steam.
IMHO, therefore, I understand that any un-superheated steam is "wet". Even after water droplets from the boiler are eliminated. The only way to dry the steam is to increase the enthalpy by adding heat to the steam - away from the boiling water. This increase in temperature also causes an increase of pressure, but as it happens, we never worry about the increased pressure from the superheater. We do not add safety valves post superheater.
Is this correct? (It seems an anomaly  to me).
Ta,
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 2, 2022)

Hi Byron,
I keep reading your posts and wonder if we are on the same page...?
you suggest:
_"if my little engines will run 10 minutes on 2 gallons of air in the compressor tank before the pressure gets to some value say 40 psi from starting at115 psi if the super heater tank has 100 cu in at 250 psi"_ ,
Having looked at the Chiltern Steam website, they run engines on MAX. 60psi SUPERHEATED STEAM. But I GUESS the steam cannot be above 350C... more likely 250C? looking at the boiler they sell for the job.
I am sure (from my basic knowledge of stress, design for money, fatigue, etc.) that their engines will not break immediately at a higher pressure, but the temperatures and pressures you put in your statement are way too high for these little model engines. Simply put: a brass engine should not exceed 200C. Chiltern sell their engines for 60psi max (before superheat, admittedly). 
SO don't waste good money hitting the engine with 110psi of anything. And 250psi? that sounds like it will simply make a loud "bang" and "hissing noise" when you open the valve to your engine.
If in doubt (i am guessing a bit in some of the above) please email Chilterns for their max steam pressure, air pressure, temperature for superheat, etc. I am not even going to try calculating anything on what you suggest.
How is the build going? - between periods shovelling snow, stroking pussy, 'n all?
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 2, 2022)

Byron, I changed my mind. (Stupid old interfering git that I am). Does this help you understand a few things?

bore 14mm = 0.5512"
stroke 18mm = 0.7087"
displaced volume of piston: 0.2386 x 0.7087 = 0.169 cu.in.
for each revolution of the crank, you'll pump 8 times that volume: so per rev = 1.353 cu.in per rev.
at 2000 rpm = 2706cu.in/min. (air or steam)
now: at 60psi, the steam (wet) will have:
temperature = 307deg.F,
total heat /lb. = 1175 BTU
and 1 cu.in of water will make 354 cu.in of steam.
Needing 2706cu.in/min. = 2706/354 = 7.6cu.in. of water to be boiled every minute, at 307F so it can be converted to steam at 60psi.
So this 7.6cu.in/min. of water = 7.6 cu.in./min. x 3.13 = 23.9lbs/.hour.
And this will need 23.9 x 1175 BTU of heat. = 28109BTU/hr.
Now to bring this into "useful" numbers for you electric heaters:

3412 BTU/hr = 1kW. so you need 8.2kW if the boiler is perfectly efficient. But it won't be, so guessing you have it very well lagged, are pumping with room temp water to maintain a steady flow, and have all the pipework, engine bodies etc. lagged, the best you can achieve is possibly 80% efficiency?
That would mean you need over 10.3kW of electric heaters, and electric supply.
But only half of that if 1000rpm will suit your electric load?
Now consider: the steam as condensed. 

Maybe 1/3rd of the heat will come out into the condenser (maybe 2/3rds? - I AM Guessing!). SO you'll have a condenser taking 7.6lbs of steam and water and need to lose 3.5~7kW of heat: Maybe plumbed into your central heating system will work?
So please have a think about the reality of your project, so you can design the components suitably.
But re-do these calcs with your own numbers first. (especially as I may have hit a wrong button on the calculator!).
Cheers!
K2


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## GWRdriver (Mar 2, 2022)

If it hasn't been made clear already, if you aren't going to "steam" (operate on steam) you shouldn't use steam cylinder oil.  It won't do its job cold, but a light mineral oil will.  For all motion work, and cold running, I've used common ISO60 hydraulic oil and it's ideal - and is widely available in small containers.  For steam cylinder oil, I've used Mobile 600W for decades, mostly because it's available locally (however only in 5-gal pails) and it's perfectly satisfactory, as well as are the Shell and Chevron.  I would be very wary of any gear oil because those typically contain chemicals or minerals (such as sulphur) which aren't healthy for cylinder walls.

In a perfect world, when cast iron steam cylinders are correctly and adequately lubricated with steam oil, heat, oil, and oxides will eventually coat the cylinder walls with a dark rust-resistant patina.  If we steamed every day or so this would be sufficient to prevent rust from forming, but for our usage a condensate purge and squirt of preservative is always a good idea.


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## Steamchick (Mar 2, 2022)

Good advice Harry. I have never been "taught" of the best procedures and oils to use, but from  my work experience chose the following regime:

For all engines on superheated steam (all my boilers) I use a proprietary steam oil.
For air running I use compressed air tool lube oil.
After steam running I purge with WD40 and then oil with light (5W, 7.5W, or 10W) car petrol engine oil. The additive packages to prevent corrosion and cope with "cold start" conditions are the best of the various special oils. (Because Petrol engines leave the most corrosive end-of-use products that sit until the next engine start and warm-up). This is also my oil of choice for cranks, bearings, gears, slides, etc. for storage and running. 5W viscosity is as thin as light machine oil, with more and better chemical packages in it.
7W lathe oil was always my choice before I checked and realised that petrol engine oil was far superior for cold storage.
Don't just look after "iron" engines, as brass is quite corrosive in its own way. The electro potential of the zinc in brass acts as a sacrificial material that dissolves in any moisture, in order to prevent corrosion of any other metal parts - like iron parts. Which is also a real reason to make you drain boilers after use! De-zincification of brass caused one of my water gauges to fall apart after a long period without draining the boiler. A brass part crumbled in my fingers when I spotted it leaking. It was porous and could not hold itself together, never mind take boiler pressure! 
Hope that helps?
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 2, 2022)

GWRdriver: I guess, that with high temperature (superheated steam) and thin oil films (on sliding surfaces) the oil develops lacquers, caramels, tars and some degraded oil products that form the same brown greasy film you can get on ovens and cooking utensils. Theses are an imperfect corrosion inhibitor but work (simply) in 2 ways.

The film keeps water off the metal, by surface tension: the high surface energy causes any condensation water droplets to form separated blobs.. keeping some surface dry in the process, and separating the drops.
Electrolytic protection. This works in 2 ways, as the film is a higher resistance so reducing any electro-potential corrosion and also by separating the water droplets so they do  not develop conductive paths for electrolytic corrosion.
But as a lacquer, it is imperfect as there are microscopic-holes in the film where corrosion can start/occur.
But thanks for the experience.
This similar "lacquer" from cooking, stops the iron kitchen pans from rusting, until you wash it off! (DON'T cook in copper pans, the dissolved copper in the food will give you Alzheimers desease).
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 2, 2022)

HMEL said:


> I would like to clear up some misconceptions on steam.  Steam can be classified as saturated or super-heated.  Both property states can exist at the same pressure except super-heated steam has the higher temperature. There are tables which define the temperatures at various pressures.  Its not unusual to specify the operational pressure and the degrees of superheat the boiler is designed to produce. Basically anything above the saturation temperature is defined as superheated.
> 
> Now wet steam primarily arises in the boilers from condensate and water being entrained in the steam. To remove the water particles cyclone separators are install either on the outside of the boiler or inside the boiler drum to remove as much of the water particles as possible. The discharge of the cyclone or condensate it captures is discharged back to the boiler.  Many ways to do this.  The design of the cyclones take some care.. But after seeing some of the model boilers being built many do not have cyclones or superheaters.
> 
> ...


thanks for the encouraging words. The “ check valve worked on my foot.  I have given thought to the insulation on te external heater I have Lenny of balsa and other wood available as well as automotive exhaust wrap by it self, pretty ugly so I think I’ll add a polished stainless wrap to hold it all in place . There are new induction units coming on line every day. There are a number of build sites too. I look at these to get an understanding of what is in the magic boxes and to see how they operate the external heating coils need cooling water on some I have a compact motorcycle radiator that’s brand new so I’d just need to come up with a pump.  I could probably just have one 3D printed  as I don’t think the water temp gets very hot . It’s what the coils encircle that gets hot. I ran into an assembly issue yesterday. The connecting rods have inner and outer bearing shells plus a flat strip acting as contact for the  rod cap screws. Well the screws are m2 about 5/8” long. My new metric Allen key set apparently is not the greatest quality so the Allen hex key did not fit in the screw head  so I had to sand it down just a little then there just is not much space for the rod and insert between crank webs. I used a pair of number drills in the rod holes o hold the inner bearing insert in place while I installed the upper and the bearing plate . Then you have to hold the crank in position.  Not easy. I finally poked the pistons in the cylinder blocks and used them as a stand . Complicated my fingers are a lot bigger than the pets so it was a tiring day . I’ll be done today I think once the connecting rods are done I can install the crank assembly in the engine frame.  Of course you have to check to make sure things keep turning freely as you assemble parts. Clearances are really tight. I’m impressed at the quality of workmanship of these tiny parts . The instructions say to assemble dry then take it apart and add sealer to the surfaces but I’m going to change that to seal it up first.  If it spins over easily I’ll be home free. There are just too many small screws to be taking things spare . If I get a leak I’ll deal with it after the fact.  
Untill later.

byron


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## solarenergyadventures (Mar 2, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Byron, I changed my mind. (Stupid old interfering git that I am). Does this help you understand a few things?
> 
> bore 14mm = 0.5512"
> stroke 18mm = 0.7087"
> ...


Hi Steamchick,
I was following through your calculations, but there was one bit that I didn't understand. In this line:

So this 7.6cu.in/min. of water = 7.6 cu.in./min. x 3.13 = 23.9lbs/.hour. Where does the 3.13 come from?  
I did it like this: 7.6cu.in/min x .033Lb/cu.in. =.251Lbs of water per minute. .033Lbs/cu.in. is the density of water at 307 deg F @ 60 psig or 75 psia. 

Now take the .251Lbs/min x 60min/hour= 15 lbs of water per hour.

Next: 15Lbs/hour x 1175 BTU of heat. =17698 BTU/hour
Then: 17698/3412BTU/hour/kilowatt=5.187 kilowatts. 

5187 watts/220 volts=23.5 amps. 
This could be run off of a standard 30 amp electric clothes dryer outlet or an electric range outlet. 
Like you said earlier, it would be less at a lower RPM. 
It would also be significantly lower if the engine ran with say 50% steam cutoff. 

I'm still learning this stuff, so please feel free to correct me if I missed something absurdly obvious here.
Cheers!


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## Bentwings (Mar 2, 2022)

solarenergyadventures said:


> Hi Steamchick,
> I was following through your calculations, but there was one bit that I didn't understand. In this line:
> 
> So this 7.6cu.in/min. of water = 7.6 cu.in./min. x 3.13 = 23.9lbs/.hour. Where does the 3.13 come from?
> ...


Thank you I’ll review this tonight. I’m thinking I may not have enough heating even with the third immersion heater. But again I’ll go over this again. I have done this myself already but my notes got flooded when kitty knocked a glass of water over on my table . I just got a small book of just steam tables I skimmed over it briefly today but I didn’t apply anything . It nots wet and dry steam and temps pressures and volumes. I was hoping to be almost done with engine assembly but I ran into some snags that just keep reoccurring the piston connecting rod is threaded  on both ends with 1 mm difference in length. The instructions say to leave 1 mm of thread showing for the piston retaining nut . That’s not quite the thickness of the nut so it either appears not fully threaded on or on a little too far  then there is a rod packing of rolled Teflon tape. Easy enough but either too loose or too tight I got all the pistons connecting rods and slide valve tubes together only to find interference with the packing nut so I had to take the rotating assembly all apart again . The connecting rod screws are m2 so really smart. I use two number drills in the rod holes for guides in assembly but there is not much room . I’m going to have dinner then have another go at it. Then I’ll do some math . My new air compressor might not be enough for a longer run . I don’t need a long continuous run but if it would run 10 min at some given rpm I’d be real happy.  I have a portable air tank at the shop that’s had 150 psi in it for long times   The table charts have weights for water and volumes at temps and pressures.  
Anyway thanks again for the help . I review tonight 

byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 2, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Good advice Harry. I have never been "taught" of the best procedures and oils to use, but from  my work experience chose the following regime:
> 
> For all engines on superheated steam (all my boilers) I use a proprietary steam oil.
> For air running I use compressed air tool lube oil.
> ...


great and very informative. I’ve been calculating for severa hours and keep getting different numbers, I may be just missing buttons too. I did chat with chilertern some time ago and he told me about the same try not to go to high on steam  coorosion. I have 3 magnesium anodes from my boat plus’s two mor screw in zinc anodes from the boat engines all new . They worked excellently on the boat most under water parts were bronze except the drive shafts those had ring anodes changed each year even the bilges had anodes so I never had issues . Like others did .  The numbers I originally noted are just pulled out of the air kinds “ what if”  I just got a book of steam tables today . I didn’t know there is dry steam and wet steam . Nor under conditions it occurs . My external superheater came up as a way to add energy to the wet vapor from the boiler. I was hoping the super heater would cause the moisture to fall out of the steam from the boiler without a condenser. Just periodically blow the super heater to clear condensate. I just Ickes a number hoping the moisture would drop out as soone as the super heater was vented even slightly looks like just a dream now looking at the charts I see what you are noting. I’m planning on only using enough pressure/volume to maintain some rpm under load I picked 1k and 2k as starting pints maybe needing only 50-75 psi at the engine intakes. I’m not sure how to handle the condensate. Maybe a lubricator with a drain . In other words I’ll use only enough pressure to turn the intended load speed. I can’t imagine running full pressure on these engines. Also I was landing on tool oil when on compressed air. Steam oil only when steaming . I have some of each to start with PMResearxh ha steam oil so I can get it when needed. I’ve also got a reversing and throttle valve that I haven’t put together yet   I YHINK I’ll do that first thing in the morning so it’s ready to go when the compressor arrives .   Byron 
Superheater. I plan on the superheater coils to surround the vessel 
I’m hoping I have better luck tomorrow in the assembly .  I think I’ve got the questions figured out now maybe I’m sure glad I got the lighted magnifying glass. I got a pencil size driver to day so running screws in should be easier  so heat loss will be minimal I think.  it will be insulated too .

I can see a lot of experimenting with this thing but that what this is for .


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## Steamchick (Mar 3, 2022)

solarenergyadventures said:


> Hi Steamchick,
> I was following through your calculations, but there was one bit that I didn't understand. In this line:
> 
> So this 7.6cu.in/min. of water = 7.6 cu.in./min. x 3.13 = 23.9lbs/.hour. Where does the 3.13 come from?
> ...


You are probably right, I just v grabbed some data from a  book to show how to do the calcs... missed the correct units I guess!
Still, 5 kW is still more than most UK. Domestic circuits.... hard-wired cookers excepted.
 I don't know what Baron has, 110V, 220V, or 240V.
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 3, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> You are probably right, I just v grabbed some data from a  book to show how to do the calcs... missed the correct units I guess!
> Still, 5 kW is still more than most UK. Domestic circuits.... hard-wired cookers excepted.
> I don't know what Baron has, 110V, 220V, or 240V.
> K2


I spent a bunch of time before bed time last night and I just couldn’t get the engine displacement to come out to what I originally noted , well about 3AM I woke up with a start.  I grabbed my trusty middle of the night note book. I had made a real dumb simple mistake  engine displacement is bore radius squared time stroke time number of cylinders o in this cas double acting so 8 cylinders effectively. I had been using bore square not radius  squared . No excuse.
I took the easy way and found an online calculator that automatically calculates in imperial even with metric input . 
So this gives 1.353 cu in per revolution

s 1k equals 1,353 cu in per minute at some pressure to be determined.
The compressor has 2 gal tank and is rated 2.1cu ft per min at 90 psi.  A gal is 231 cu in  so it looks like I’d be using just over 1 gallon per min if I ran at 90 psi which is probably too high . If I ran at say 50 psi it looks like I could run quite a long time before the compressor would even kick on then almost indefinitely.  Not that I would   I didn’t go into the steam tables yet. I want to try and get as much assembled today as I can. I’ll do the throttle valve first. So that’s out of the way. I see that PM Research  has some small pressure gages so I think a gage on the engine intake line might not be a bad idea I’ll need something better for the super heater. Ashcroft makes all kinds of gages. Industrial quality and reasonably priced.

backbto the assembly line
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 3, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I spent a bunch of time before bed time last night and I just couldn’t get the engine displacement to come out to what I originally noted , well about 3AM I woke up with a start.  I grabbed my trusty middle of the night note book. I had made a real dumb simple mistake  engine displacement is bore radius squared time stroke time number of cylinders o in this cas double acting so 8 cylinders effectively. I had been using bore square not radius  squared . No excuse.
> I took the easy way and found an online calculator that automatically calculates in imperial even with metric input .
> So this gives 1.353 cu in per revolution
> 
> ...


this spell check is just devastating my posts. I’m goingvto look into disabling it. It seems that no matter how well I proof read it just crests it’s own issues later. I did get the compressor today we had it up and running by 2pm. It still has not kicked on since then it’s got almost 120 psi in the tank. The recovery time is spectacular. It only took a couple minutes when we tested it . It’s so quiet that my kitty doesn’t even startle .  My son is goingvto put a hook up hose together for me.  Otherwise I just need some 1/4” I’d hose and a couple clamps.
I did make some progress with the engine assembly . There are two different assembly drawings one is the new style engine the other is a different twin cyl engine one way or another I’ll get it . I have the right parts for the twin engines it’s just the assembly drawing makes it confusing. I’m just folding the odd drawing up and putting it away, save for reference .
I got some blue lock tite  so parts would not be too hard to service. I’ve used this for years and never had issues. I put just a tiny drop in the piston attaching nut m 3  as is the piston. Well the stuff wicks even better than thin superglue . It stuck the piston on really tight then the m3 nut threads were full of it . I had to run a tap through both to clean them out . Not a big deal but very time consuming . Just getting the tap started was tough not the nut and the piston then I re tapped all m3 holes in the frames as screws were very tight in most  I was able to run the tap out with my driver fill but I didn’t think it was a good idea to try and start the tap with the drill . It’s just asking for cross thread or broken tap.  My son said he would mak oiler tubes for the main bearing caps this week otherwise I can u my little medical syringes . They work very well . So far the rotating assemblies are moving without issue. I did get the throttle revers control assembled. That’s just a spool valve with a slot in it and in and out ports with fittings  o once the air manifold is done I’ll be ready to run on air for now .
By the way thanks for the numbers. I saw some ofvthe demonology you used on the steam tables so I’ll look into that further.  
once this machine is running I YHINK the first test will be to run it untill the compressor comes on and check the pressure. From this I think I’ll be able to get a better handle on how much volume and at what pressure I can run at. Then I can get a better idea of how much water I need to boil to maintain operating conditions . Then I have to look at the aluminum base plate so the engines are dead flat and even. I’m goingvto have to remount one engine as it is so the flywheel connection works correctly . I’d really prefer a flex coupling there instead. I just saw a short flex coupling for tight spaces so I’ll Perdue that one too.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 4, 2022)

Thanks for clas on how steam works I’ll save this and apply as I go. 
one thing I question is engine displacement. I was told not to forget the piston length or thickness. I don’t understand this. The piston goes up and down each stroke so the volume displaced is just the volume changed above the piston in hydraulics we consider the ro diameter both volume and area but for this the rod is pretty small 2 mm I’ll measure the piston thickness and hav it handy later .
So here is the formula we use in auto world 
 1/2 bore squared times stroke times number of cylinders 

boe is 14 mm
Stroke is 18 mm
Number of cylinders I’d four , but it’s double acting so essentially eight strokes . 
I found an online calculator that does all the conversion from metric to imperial automatically

Doing this . Total displacement is 1.353 cu in 
22.167cc
0.022 liter
 From here we can multiply by rpm to get cu in per minute  or length of time.
I’ll have a pressure gage on the intake line so I cn monitor pressure the engine is getting at what ever speed it is running 

if I load the engine I’ll be able to monitor pressure required per load value , torque for example or generator toe volts amps output . Since pressure gages are pretty inexpensive I could monitor exhaust pressure too since I could connect a turbine to the exhaust . Temp is more difficult but the trusty infrared gun is quick . I have an immisitivity table too for various materials pipes can be made from. 
as you can see this is rapidly becoming a complicated science project. 
being retired and essentially immobile I have plenty of time on my hands. My TV HAS NOT BEEN ON FOR MONTS EXCEPT WHEN KITTY STEPS  ON CONTROLLER

so now I’m going to try and get into translation of the neat facts presented in the first part of the questions that were asked of me . I’ll be on loose rocks here as I’ll be out of my education level. But I’m not opposed to learning .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 4, 2022)

I have an electric stove . I’m not sure how it is wired. I’m assuming a plug. If so I could make or purchase a shirt or bit longer extension cod with multiple plugs so I could either plug in the stove as needed. I don’t us it often or just plug in a cord for the induction heater . That way I’d have 20 vac and circuitry heavy enough to drive a pretty substantial inductance heater. My car person , my sister will go nuts if she sees the stove pulled out, so I’ll have to do this sure piteously and carefully hide the extension cord.  It’s my house and my stuff so I can argue pints if necessary,. I’m not an electrician so I’d have the extension professionally done . Some of the newer heaters are incredibly efficient.  
I did plant on having the induction coils outside with internal circulation tubing I have some 1/4” stainless steel tubing and we have a very good tight radius bender as well as a very good flaring tool that does all standard flares and bulges or rings.
Interesting thing. I didn’t know there is both wet steam snd dry steam an they can coexist. I see the steam tables note this but there are no calculations or theories . Ie education on them  pure data
I’ll Oder materials the first part of the week. My son just got a handful of new lathe and mill tools so I’ll make use of them . I’m hoping my self therapy will allow my return to limited TIG welding . I’m going to try and finish engine assembly tonight I’m almost done .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks for clas on how steam works I’ll save this and apply as I go.
> one thing I question is engine displacement. I was told not to forget the piston length or thickness. I don’t understand this. The piston goes up and down each stroke so the volume displaced is just the volume changed above the piston in hydraulics we consider the ro diameter both volume and area but for this the rod is pretty small 2 mm I’ll measure the piston thickness and hav it handy later .
> So here is the formula we use in auto world
> 1/2 bore squared times stroke times number of cylinders
> ...


I have one smal more like tiny turbine I got without reading the fine print
I’ve done some work with condenser vortex towers as they were called in the textile  plant I worked at these were used to separate particles from the raw cotton after it was “ opened” or broken down from bales. These spun the material around very fast so heavy things like metal fence wire and rushed plant parts were thrown out of the cotton . The trash collected in the bottom where it was removed and made into other products magnets took care of iron various wings further separated chunks of cotton this again was refined . These used air but were essentially centrifugal separators . So this mini turbine is supposed to turn pretty fast. My thought was that it would act as a centrifuge and throw the water or heavier drops out the collet it at the outlet . I’m assuming the steam would still be quite warm so it would just collect in a low point and flow out the exhaust pipe . There would still be oil in the steam vapor so lubing the bearings should not be a problem . One reviewer di kill the bearing but he used very high pressure air and almost no lube.  I have a bigger turbine that could possibly do a better job . It’s one of the many little projects I’d like to do with the engine.

I did get one engine assembled except for the piston valve eccentrics and link rods. These just slip onto the crankshafts have the valve port mounted. It should go much easier tomorrow as I have everything ready now . It’s going to be a very nasty day tomorrow sleet ice and snow . Sleeting now at 1:00 am time to hit the bed .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks for clas on how steam works I’ll save this and apply as I go.
> one thing I question is engine displacement. I was told not to forget the piston length or thickness. I don’t understand this. The piston goes up and down each stroke so the volume displaced is just the volume changed above the piston in hydraulics we consider the ro diameter both volume and area but for this the rod is pretty small 2 mm I’ll measure the piston thickness and hav it handy later .
> So here is the formula we use in auto world
> 1/2 bore squared times stroke times number of cylinders
> ...


ok I’m about to finish assembly. But I’d like to revisit oils for just a short time . Years ago I roped into playing soldier with Airsoft plastic bb s . Of all the poor aerodynamic things plastic bb probably is the worst. Initially there were various attempts to increase velocities so rules Er applied as high velocity at close range really hurt. Then all kinds of things were don to improve accuracy 100 yds was th goal if you could hit a person at 100 yds with some consistency you were expert. I had a co 2 powered full size model M 14 it weighed almost th same as he real on and could fire full auto . With a lot of no king around I could drill someone at 100 yds pretty consistently it had s full scale operating bolt so made a horrific sound . I was a terrorist. Sneaking in the woods and drilling the unsuspected with an ouch producing hit wit a sound that rivaled real life . Especially on full auto . 
so what was the solution? Well precision polished and lapped barrels both stainless steel and brass then lubrication most standard outing did not hold up well with cheap oils so we began using silicone Rc car oils . These are available in a full range of viscosities.
I’d be the first to say not on stem . I can’t prove this but c cars are brutal on oiled parts.  So just using compressed air on a steamer these lubes might work. They are incredibl slippery . Since we won’t be outside in minnesota winter we can forget freezing cold day 70 deg F about room temp  I think a 30 weight might be a good start point . My little engine has brass bearings with polished crankshaft journals so I guess not a bad combination pistons are brass with Teflon o rings  also Teflon connecting rod packings . So far air tool oil is pretty smooth turning the packings control drag greatly I’ll need a special tool to adjust them short of minor disassembly . I suspect he silicone oil could make an easier rotation effort . My grandson has a bunch of the stuff he said I could tr so I YHINK I’ll experiment as soon as I finish assembly . I’ll see if I can get some this week end.
What is he opinion of y’all? Good bad or ugly. LOL these silicone oils are pretty tenacious so maybe Steam  won’t remove them as fast as standard oils.  Film strength seems good the Rc cars destroy plain bearings easily ball bearings hold up muc Bette dirt is th big killer.
So another issue I expected. The flywheel won’t stay tight  even with the M3 shcpscrew I managed to mar the crank as I suspected  I’ll grind a flat on it . I’d like to spot drill the crank so the screw can dig in then loc tight it .  I’m goingvto make a drill fixture out of the spare steel flywheel as soon as I can get to the shop.
I’m afraid the tap drill will damage the brass threads on the good flywheel   We have another winte storm wit sleet rain and snow.  I’m not going out today . 
mill get some pictures as I finish up .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> this spell check is just devastating my posts. I’m goingvto look into disabling it. It seems that no matter how well I proof read it just crests it’s own issues later. I did get the compressor today we had it up and running by 2pm. It still has not kicked on since then it’s got almost 120 psi in the tank. The recovery time is spectacular. It only took a couple minutes when we tested it . It’s so quiet that my kitty doesn’t even startle .  My son is goingvto put a hook up hose together for me.  Otherwise I just need some 1/4” I’d hose and a couple clamps.
> I did make some progress with the engine assembly . There are two different assembly drawings one is the new style engine the other is a different twin cyl engine one way or another I’ll get it . I have the right parts for the twin engines it’s just the assembly drawing makes it confusing. I’m just folding the odd drawing up and putting it away, save for reference .
> I got some blue lock tite  so parts would not be too hard to service. I’ve used this for years and never had issues. I put just a tiny drop in the piston attaching nut m 3  as is the piston. Well the stuff wicks even better than thin superglue . It stuck the piston on really tight then the m3 nut threads were full of it . I had to run a tap through both to clean them out . Not a big deal but very time consuming . Just getting the tap started was tough not the nut and the piston then I re tapped all m3 holes in the frames as screws were very tight in most  I was able to run the tap out with my driver fill but I didn’t think it was a good idea to try and start the tap with the drill . It’s just asking for cross thread or broken tap.  My son said he would mak oiler tubes for the main bearing caps this week otherwise I can u my little medical syringes . They work very well . So far the rotating assemblies are moving without issue. I did get the throttle revers control assembled. That’s just a spool valve with a slot in it and in and out ports with fittings  o once the air manifold is done I’ll be ready to run on air for now .
> By the way thanks for the numbers. I saw some ofvthe demonology you used on the steam tables so I’ll look into that further.
> ...


I’ve already had issues with loose flywheel . I’m starting to think about a better securing method I thought about ashear pin but the shaft is only 6mm a 2 mm hole in it is too much loss of strength I think . I’m thinking that I may have to make a clamping adaptor an drill out he flywheel and install a key way there is not a lot of meat i the hub either. Also a dog driver might work. I’ll be thinking later today . I questioned this long before I purchased the engine . I don’t want to lock tite the crew as it may wick down to the sly wheel bore while attaching it will be solved removing it might be another story. 
byron


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## HMEL (Mar 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks for clas on how steam works I’ll save this and apply as I go.
> one thing I question is engine displacement. I was told not to forget the piston length or thickness. I don’t understand this. The piston goes up and down each stroke so the volume displaced is just the volume changed above the piston in hydraulics we consider the ro diameter both volume and area but for this the rod is pretty small 2 mm I’ll measure the piston thickness and hav it handy later .
> So here is the formula we use in auto world
> 1/2 bore squared times stroke times number of cylinders
> ...


I agree with you the piston wall does not make a lot of sense.  But I also do not know what or how they make their calculations.  I can only reason that the double acting piston in their case is hollowed out to the rod connector and this volume is added to the expansion volume of the cylinder.  You might want to do that to make the piston lighter. Its a correction that makes the calculation more accurate.

Work done is often calculated as a Pressure times volume. Units are  annoying but for steam its fairly common technique. So if you take the boiler pressure in lbs/in square times the usable expansion volume in cubic inches you will have the work done.  We would want to express our number in ft-lbf  (ft-lb force). which can be converted using these conversions. 1hp=33,000 ft-lbf/min  Kw=44,220 ft-1bf/min 1hp=.746kw

So here is an example of 20 psi expanded to 3 cubic feet (Assuming constant pressure ) first we must convert 20psi (20lbsf/in square) to units in feet and that conversion done by multiplying by 144in2/ft2 and that by 3 cubic ft we have 5760 ft-1bf.  

This will give you a close estimate for one move of the piston of its work done.  For the power we need to add time usually in rpm. 

I would suggest you calculate the steam on one revolution of the flywheel and then you can multiply that by rpm to get the desired steam flow and horsepower

Apologize for the long description.  Not sure this will help and the technique is simple.  Take care and maybe you can train that cat to operate the tv on command.
Take care
HMEL


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## Bentwings (Mar 5, 2022)

HMEL said:


> I agree with you the piston wall does not make a lot of sense.  But I also do not know what or how they make their calculations.  I can only reason that the double acting piston in their case is hollowed out to the rod connector and this volume is added to the expansion volume of the cylinder.  You might want to do that to make the piston lighter. Its a correction that makes the calculation more accurate.
> 
> Work done is often calculated as a Pressure times volume. Units are  annoying but for steam its fairly common technique. So if you take the boiler pressure in lbs/in square times the usable expansion volume in cubic inches you will have the work done.  We would want to express our number in ft-lbf  (ft-lb force). which can be converted using these conversions. 1hp=33,000 ft-lbf/min  Kw=44,220 ft-1bf/min 1hp=.746kw
> 
> ...


thanks for the additional math. I’ll make a note card so I have it handy. 
I forgot to measure where the piston is in the cylinder last night I’m a both ready to add the remaining pair is cylinders snd pistons so I’ll measure an take pictures. 
I suppose if he piston is not near flush at the top of stroke and near touching the bottom at the bottom of the stroke you might have to account for the dead spaces. In this case it’s almost 0 I think. In any case it’s very small . The piston is very light even in brass, by the time the ring groove material is discounted and the counterbore for the attaching nut there is not much left the two rings are Teflon so the weight is grams and not many at that. 
the dog gone blue lock tite wicked into the threads on the pistons so I had a tough time removing them I had to run the m3 tap through them. Then do the same on the nuts. I’m getting rid of this stuff the amount was so smal you could hardly see the blue even under the magnifying glass . I’ll go out of my way to get he 3 m stuff next time . Good thing I didn’t use it on everything . I’ll see what comes loose as I run it . I got a new hose coming tomorrow. I don’t like the coiled thing it just gets in the way. 
min goingvto have to come up with a packing nut adjusting tool otherwise I have to remove the cylinders and slide valves . This little engine is like servicing new cars. You have to take every thing apart to do and work on it . It’s also small. Hopefully I’ll be done assembly today . 
byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks for clas on how steam works I’ll save this and apply as I go.
> one thing I question is engine displacement. I was told not to forget the piston length or thickness. I don’t understand this. The piston goes up and down each stroke so the volume displaced is just the volume changed above the piston in hydraulics we consider the ro diameter both volume and area but for this the rod is pretty small 2 mm I’ll measure the piston thickness and hav it handy later .
> So here is the formula we use in auto world
> 1/2 bore squared times stroke times number of cylinders
> ...


Here are end views of the cylinders
I ran into another snag as the holes where the cylinders mount to won’t let me thread the screws in as far as they need to go. So I’m trying to run a tap in them but really having a hard time just getting the tap started. I have 2 new m 3 taps but there must be something blocking the holes almost like damaged threads.. I m trying to be careful about cross threading too the tap just won’t start I just came up with a guide so maybe that will help . The weather is really bad sleet rain snow all day , severe weather warning just posted . More snow and colder 
Byron


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## Steamchick (Mar 6, 2022)

Hi Byron, I am not sure what your turbine project is about? Oil separation from the exhaust? Cyclone separators are commonly used. Just a tangential side feed into a cylinder with a central axial exhaust and the condensate and oil will be separated from any vapour that is exhausted. Oil condenses at a higher temperature than steam, anyway. So what is left to be vented is pretty oil-free.
It does NOT need a turbine to spin it, the gas will spin much faster without. The same process is used in many industrial processes, e.g. separating U238 and U235, if you want to enrich Uranium.
So I suggest you find a different project for the turbine. Like powering a generator?
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 6, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, I am not sure what your turbine project is about? Oil separation from the exhaust? Cyclone separators are commonly used. Just a tangential side feed into a cylinder with a central axial exhaust and the condensate and oil will be separated from any vapour that is exhausted. Oil condenses at a higher temperature than steam, anyway. So what is left to be vented is pretty oil-free.
> It does NOT need a turbine to spin it, the gas will spin much faster without. The same process is used in many industrial processes, e.g. separating U238 and U235, if you want to enrich Uranium.
> So I suggest you find a different project for the turbine. Like powering a generator?
> K2


Ok that’s real good to know . It will simplify that part of this project . Chilertern has a condenser with what looks like a funnel on the top. I can see doing the reverse as that’s what the textile ones were like . At least I won’t have to deal with metal in the condensate . At least I hope not . I was working last night to try and finish up when I discovered the supplied screws for an item are too long . It was hard enough to get them installed but now the instructions say to cut them off if necessary. That’s easier said than done I can cut them off and chamfer them but that’s no guarantee they will thread in easily. I can leave a nut on them of course but these take a kind Allen hex driver and there is not much working room.  I’ll see if the local hardware store has any shorter ones  m 3 x 12 , not likely I’ll call the hobby shop tomorrow ans see if he has any for Rc cars . I’ll try one screw and see if I get a clean thread. It would be nice to have a die so I’ll Oder one tomorrow so I have it later . I also found the cylinder mount screws are slot head rather than socket head . Mc master Carr has the right screws so I YHINK I’ll just order them tomorrow. I have a metric screw set but it doesn’t have short or long screws. . At least they are not $20 each like the race car head studs .  I don’t like the single flywheel as a shaft connector. If I use a short disc coupling I can just slide the flywheel on on shaft farther . It will be righ next to a main bearing so it should not affect the way the engines run . It seems well balanced I also found carbide spotting drills so I can use the steel flywheel as a drill guide these make a small center drill spot so I can more accurately locate the flywheel lock bolts also the eccentric uses the same m6 grub screw  there is just enough clearance so I can use socket head cap screws instead of grub screws. They have really thin walls around the Allen key hole so I can get around that issue too .  We got almost 6” wet snow last night . It was tough just shoveling the walkway out to the street this morning. I sprayed WD40 on the shovel and broom so wet snow does not stick to them.  Well I’m going to get back to work. If I get stuck again I’ll sit down and do some calculating .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 26, 2022)

Well last night was my fittest test run after screwing around trying to get the eccentric timing right I got one cylinder to more or less work so I inverted the or mirrored the position on the second cyl. Zoom the thing took off running on abou 35 psi air pressure it ran about 3 minutes the stopped . Well the eccentric had come loose as I suspected it would then marred the crankshaft. Looking around both had come loose making a mess . Rut cause was the piston valve connecting rods had come loose too  so I now have the whole engingine disassembled . No real damage except the crankshaft is a mess I YHINK the bore of the eccentric may be messed up too . I’m working on a better method of securing these things  then I’ll lock tite everything . The blue stuff I have is like super glue. It wicks all over so I have to be careful not to get it in bearings  I hav a position measurement of the piston valve so I should be able to get the timing to a running situation again .  The engine turns very free now even the packing worked ok I’ve ordered som 3mm I’d Teflon o rings for that too .  Now to get every thing back together . 

Byron


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## Steamchick (Mar 26, 2022)

Hi Byron, Aftercthe rebuild, I suggest you start at maybe 5psi, spin the engine by hand, then 10psi, 15, psi, etc. until it runs without stalling. Make sure there is plenty of oil everywhere before winding it up to 50psi. It just might save you doing a rebuild again.
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 26, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, Aftercthe rebuild, I suggest you start at maybe 5psi, spin the engine by hand, then 10psi, 15, psi, etc. until it runs without stalling. Make sure there is plenty of oil everywhere before winding it up to 50psi. It just might save you doing a rebuild again.
> K2


thats exactly how I did get the thing to run. Very good idea. It was just purring along. I was going to stop and it stopped.  I realy don’t like the blue lock tite as it wicks into everything I use just super tiny pin point amounts even using a q tip to wipe off any excess . I had a terrible time getting the threaded piston off the threaded shaft I wrapped tape around it then a piece of fine Emory paper and careful use of pliers. I finally came off after I gently warmed the shaft with the solder torch. Some of the screws are going to be really hard to remove if needed with the “blue” on them. I have at least 5 sets or various ball drivers of various lengths  there are a couple spots where straight in access just isn’t there  I finally have some 3 mm Teflon o rings coming snd dome 3 mm I’d Teflon tubing so I can make better packing . The tape worked fine there were no leaks there and the little bit of light oil loosened them just fine  my son is working on the new eccentric retainer . It’s a tricky part to make on our 10x 20 lathe all the parts on these engines are so perfectly made , it a shame that there wasn’t a better way to mount the eccentrics. Looking around I see the same method is pretty common so who am I to criticize?  One way or another this is goingvto be a solid mount that’s adjustable exactly . It may not need it but it was only a few degrees that it either worked or did not I just hope I can get them off the crank with minimum damage.  All 4 of the eccentrics on this engine turn very smoothly even the crankshaft spins nice . The flywheel is another issue the 4mm grub screw goes 

Byronin at a small angle. Well this just pushes the flywheel along untill something sticks that’s a chewed up crankshaft too. So I’ll make a locking device for that too.The big flywheel has 4 screws in it 45 deg apart so it should stay in place I can flat spot the crank too but again I’ll modify the adjustable shaft lock for this too.  As you can see I’m a bullet proofer as they call me.  The term is called poky yoke in engineering . It was invented by a guy name of Demming I YHINK after WW2 to fix Japanese production.  It was promoted in college too   In kind words it means fool proofing . It goes along with “ you can’t fool proof” the fool .  So that’s my efforts on this engine. 

I’m goingvto go through the other engine before i test it further  also take close up ictures son I can secexactly where the eccentrics are located  fortunately I can measure the exact position of the piston slide valve . So I’ll be able to set timing where it needs to be right from the start.


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## Bentwings (Mar 26, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> thats exactly how I did get the thing to run. Very good idea. It was just purring along. I was going to stop and it stopped.  I realy don’t like the blue lock tite as it wicks into everything I use just super tiny pin point amounts even using a q tip to wipe off any excess . I had a terrible time getting the threaded piston off the threaded shaft I wrapped tape around it then a piece of fine Emory paper and careful use of pliers. I finally came off after I gently warmed the shaft with the solder torch. Some of the screws are going to be really hard to remove if needed with the “blue” on them. I have at least 5 sets or various ball drivers of various lengths  there are a couple spots where straight in access just isn’t there  I finally have some 3 mm Teflon o rings coming snd dome 3 mm I’d Teflon tubing so I can make better packing . The tape worked fine there were no leaks there and the little bit of light oil loosened them just fine  my son is working on the new eccentric retainer . It’s a tricky part to make on our 10x 20 lathe all the parts on these engines are so perfectly made , it a shame that there wasn’t a better way to mount the eccentrics. Looking around I see the same method is pretty common so who am I to criticize?  One way or another this is goingvto be a solid mount that’s adjustable exactly . It may not need it but it was only a few degrees that it either worked or did not I just hope I can get them off the crank with minimum damage.  All 4 of the eccentrics on this engine turn very smoothly even the crankshaft spins nice . The flywheel is another issue the 4mm grub screw goes
> 
> Byronin at a small angle. Well this just pushes the flywheel along untill something sticks that’s a chewed up crankshaft too. So I’ll make a locking device for that too.The big flywheel has 4 screws in it 45 deg apart so it should stay in place I can flat spot the crank too but again I’ll modify the adjustable shaft lock for this too.  As you can see I’m a bullet proofer as they call me.  The term is called poky yoke in engineering . It was invented by a guy name of Demming I YHINK after WW2 to fix Japanese production.  It was promoted in college too   In kind words it means fool proofing . It goes along with “ you can’t fool proof” the fool .  So that’s my efforts on this engine.
> 
> I’m goingvto go through the other engine before i test it further  also take close up ictures son I can secexactly where the eccentrics are located  fortunately I can measure the exact position of the piston slide valve . So I’ll be able to set timing where it needs to be right from the start.


isci got the cylinders to fire properly I added a thin drop of marvel oil to each port but what really smoothedcthings out was the drop of plain motor oil on each main an rod bearings . It turns over very easy now the little tight spot is gone too. The other engine turns over very easy now too . I’ll go over it and lock tite all the screws and piston connecting rods. I may order a piece of stainless steel and make new connecting rods, I may be possible to just add one tub of thread to give more room for the locking nuts.  I should be able to set number two up more precisely too . I seriously doubt I’ll be able to run 50 psi unless it already under heavy load. The two brass fly wheels are a big inertia load so  changing speed by pressure will be a bit touchy . I have a neat throttle valve that I YHINK I’ll install too that way I’ll be able to watch pressure and rpm together 

Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 27, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> isci got the cylinders to fire properly I added a thin drop of marvel oil to each port but what really smoothedcthings out was the drop of plain motor oil on each main an rod bearings . It turns over very easy now the little tight spot is gone too. The other engine turns over very easy now too . I’ll go over it and lock tite all the screws and piston connecting rods. I may order a piece of stainless steel and make new connecting rods, I may be possible to just add one tub of thread to give more room for the locking nuts.  I should be able to set number two up more precisely too . I seriously doubt I’ll be able to run 50 psi unless it already under heavy load. The two brass fly wheels are a big inertia load so  changing speed by pressure will be a bit touchy . I have a neat throttle valve that I YHINK I’ll install too that way I’ll be able to watch pressure and rpm together
> 
> Byronic start much more gently this time  I’m just getting started today . More interruptions  I’m taking picture as I go so I can find an fix each piece .  I feel bad . I raced cars and Rc planes for years and never blew up an engine in testing    I don’t like the grub screw set screw mounting on shafts it’s just asking for trouble . I know it’s common on the steamers  but it’s going away on this one  . I’m going to have to sit down and break out the cad again  then either get to the shop or just send the stuff out . I hate that too as I know I could make what ever I need.  I’d like to get rid of the heavy duty connecting hose but it’s steam rated so about the only thing I could use I’d often that would be smaller or run copper or brass connections . Well I’m goingvto repair it first then make changes as needed. Hopefully I can make a short video .
> 
> Byron


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## Steamchick (Mar 28, 2022)

Hi Byron, Sounds like you are getting into the nitty-gritty of the development now! This is where the hard brain works counts. Only you can decide on how to feed steam from the boiler to the engine, and how to control that steam (regulator valve), but have you started making the boiler yet? Remember all steam lines should be well insulated to ensure minimal condensation in transit from boiler to engine.
As I mentioned earlier, (and it was drummed into me at a very early stage!) hydraulic locking an engine is forbidden! It is very likely to damage the engine So adequate warming with a tiny feed of steam is *Really necessary* before you admit any pressure or volume of steam to the engine.
From your experience with air, and necessary remedial work, I am sure that you'll appreciate that to avoid further damage, you need to be much more careful when using steam, as it contains so much more energy than air. And if you have some condensate in an engine you can do worse damage as a consequence, due to hydraulic locking.
So remember, just a crack of the steam valve on a cold engine, and turn it over BY HAND (referred to as "Barring an engine") many revolutions while the steam heats it up and the small amount of condensate blows through...
ONLY when the engine is really hot and steam with very little condensate blows through should you open the throttle bit-by-bit until the engine kicks into life.
One thing to mention regarding location of the steam regulator: This should be BEFORE the superheater (if you have one), as "locomotive practice". If after the superheater, you can get water into the superheater, which will quickly flash to steam before the boiler is hot and generates steam. And as a steam novice, you won't appreciate what is happening - thus leading to some risk of errors. (Been there many years ago!).
Have fun!
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 28, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, Sounds like you are getting into the nitty-gritty of the development now! This is where the hard brain works counts. Only you can decide on how to feed steam from the boiler to the engine, and how to control that steam (regulator valve), but have you started making the boiler yet? Remember all steam lines should be well insulated to ensure minimal condensation in transit from boiler to engine.
> As I mentioned earlier, (and it was drummed into me at a very early stage!) hydraulic locking an engine is forbidden! It is very likely to damage the engine So adequate warming with a tiny feed of steam is *Really necessary* before you admit any pressure or volume of steam to the engine.
> From your experience with air, and necessary remedial work, I am sure that you'll appreciate that to avoid further damage, you need to be much more careful when using steam, as it contains so much more energy than air. And if you have some condensate in an engine you can do worse damage as a consequence, due to hydraulic locking.
> So remember, just a crack of the steam valve on a cold engine, and turn it over BY HAND (referred to as "Barring an engine") many revolutions while the steam heats it up and the small amount of condensate blows through...
> ...


I did read your note earlier about hydro lock . I had not considered this but I guess that’s why in the real loco world years ago they blasted enormous cloud of vapor before moving at the station 
As I initially assembled the engines I noted that the pistons have little space at top dead center and bottom dead center. Somewhere I read or noted that the valve timing is such that right before these conditions the ports open providing a cushion for the piston to compress against. It prevents knocking or rapid take up of bearing clearance IC  engines don’t realy have this as they are compressing or under power and load essentially all the time . That may be over simplification, but making sure the cylinders are clear makes sense I did rotate the engine a number of times to make sure that oil had not accumulated . But I’ll be sure to include a way to clear the cylinders or at least turn the engines over by hand before running  standard procedure in hot rods we even do this at the end of a run in case the fuel leaks as there is considerable pressure in nitro systems. 

You are right I’m learning things as thre are lots of these engine running . I just don’t like set screw or grub screw into a shaft unless there is an exact flat spot that prevents rotation . In this case there is noting . The instruction says “ make it like the picture “  in fortunately I found his rathe oblique and ambiguous.  I’m used to accurately decreeing the cam or cams . 
 And of course I have no specs to go by , so it’s a trial and error and a chewed up crank now .  I found made to order shaft coupler that are clamp on and pretty short so I could make it to fit allowable space. Since I have machining capability I’ll make custom fit I need 4 total but over $ 100 each is a bit hard to swallow.  I can buy aluminum bar stock and design an make my own  I just can’t do it over night .   Essentially the front ofvthe coupler will clamp the hub of the eccentric to the crank allowing adjustment then the entire coupler will clamp to the crank too . It sounds complicated but it is not just making it fit in allowable space will take away from engine to engine coupling space but there is room there  no real close tolerances either . 

I’m a little uncomfortable doing this as others have had success using what I consider “ old school” methods .  It sometimes takes a while to develope stuff like this but we often had lengthy debates on mfg processes and fixes . I’m just doing the debate internally in my mind . 

As for the boiler it’s slow as I have had just endless interruptions . Once again another interruption “ my heat went off last night. It’s 55 deg in the house no help until late after noon . I have a portable heater I’ll move to the hobby room so I can continue rebuilding the short blocks.  I think the super heater I proposed will work . 
Question:  if I have some volume of super heated steam say just in the “ dry stage” if I bleed this into an empty tank like an air tank carefully observing pressure of course and pressurize to say 225 psi. Well within limits of standard air tank. ? Will there be too much cooling thus condensation ? I could bleed the tank of course . I also have a very good ac vacuum pump so I could vacuum the tank first   I YHINK it may be a test I’ll have to do at some point  I really need to get the boiler done before getting into this I think . I’ll do some start up and bleed downs before functional operations.  I already have dual-electrical timers so I’m trying to prevent a runaway. Dealing with the aviation and military I’m well aware of double redundancy. In hot rods we had some and now there are multiple fuel and ignition controls. As well as fire controls.  Since I have several nice flex couplings I YHINK I’ll do a dry test using a small electrical drill to break in the packing gland and circular oils.  I’ve got measurements of where the timing was that allowed easy running so I’ll start there and develope a better setting method . 
I’ll be able to describe this better once I test it out . I know I’m really against the grain here but even airlines Chang their check lists occasionally especially after an “ incident “  
I have to say this is a very interesting hobby lots to learn lots of great guys willing to help out. 
Actually glad I didn’t have steam perational. I had not planned on this issue so I would have had to have a quick way to shut the steam off other than the valve I was using. So another item to consider.  I won’t put steam in until I can operate the engines reliably 
I’m also dealing with my late son’s estate  so many phone calls .


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## Bentwings (Mar 28, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I did read your note earlier about hydro lock . I had not considered this but I guess that’s why in the real loco world years ago they blasted enormous cloud of vapor before moving at the station
> As I initially assembled the engines I noted that the pistons have little space at top dead center and bottom dead center. Somewhere I read or noted that the valve timing is such that right before these conditions the ports open providing a cushion for the piston to compress against. It prevents knocking or rapid take up of bearing clearance IC  engines don’t realy have this as they are compressing or under power and load essentially all the time . That may be over simplification, but making sure the cylinders are clear makes sense I did rotate the engine a number of times to make sure that oil had not accumulated . But I’ll be sure to include a way to clear the cylinders or at least turn the engines over by hand before running  standard procedure in hot rods we even do this at the end of a run in case the fuel leaks as there is considerable pressure in nitro systems.
> 
> You are right I’m learning things as thre are lots of these engine running . I just don’t like set screw or grub screw into a shaft unless there is an exact flat spot that prevents rotation . In this case there is noting . The instruction says “ make it like the picture “  in fortunately I found his rathe oblique and ambiguous.  I’m used to accurately decreeing the cam or cams .
> ...


another delay. I just checked my mc master parts that should have been “ bolt on” are all wrong. Not totally useless but now I have go through the order process again. I still have my notes I had used. I went over them line by line to make sure I had not made a mistake. They are right on the money. I even made


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## Steamchick (Mar 29, 2022)

Hi Byron,
I don't understand why you want to send the superheated steam into a receiver - which will cool the steam and may condense a bit. But remember the steam was generated at boiler pressure, so that (or below) is the temperature and pressure at which it will condense. Heavily lagged, you'll only get the condensate from heating the receiver... But why would you want such a high pressure of superheat? Seems excessive and likely to break the engine? - or at least blow gaskets? (designed for 50psi!). 
Hope you get your domestic heating working.... I worry if the boiler turns out as reliable?
Cheers!
Ken


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## Bentwings (Mar 29, 2022)

I just received the first of the test couplings . It fit both the shaft and the eccentric exactly . I’ll try and set up a test later today . I tried to order 4 more but they are out of stock. So I did a little different thinking and ordered 4 more couplings if a different type that do the same thing . I should have them by the week end I hope.  It hard to depend on Amazon for things like this. I’ve had problems with the order getting changed at check out and not getting what I ordered. It’s not hard to send things back but it takes time and I have to depend on someone else to take them to the return center. Ups will pick up but even that becomes issue. Just getting the return label . I save packaging until I’m sure things are ok so that helps. 

Heat was fixed finally but it was a cold day . Spring isn’t here yet 

I have the short blocks back together. Waiting for the new couplers now . I’ll install the one I have for testing today . I’ll try and get pictures later . . Looks like I’ll need a spacer the width of the eccentric hub. I have done brass hex nuts and brass round stock so nt hard to make. 

Also ordered a 1/4 40 ME TAPERED IPE DIE so I can use some of the 1/4” brass pipe stock running the straight die over this does not make the perfect thread but it is usable . I can use Teflon tape if I need sealing 

Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 29, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just received the first of the test couplings . It fit both the shaft and the eccentric exactly . I’ll try and set up a test later today . I tried to order 4 more but they are out of stock. So I did a little different thinking and ordered 4 more couplings if a different type that do the same thing . I should have them by the week end I hope.  It hard to depend on Amazon for things like this. I’ve had problems with the order getting changed at check out and not getting what I ordered. It’s not hard to send things back but it takes time and I have to depend on someone else to take them to the return center. Ups will pick up but even that becomes issue. Just getting the return label . I save packaging until I’m sure things are ok so that helps.
> 
> Heat was fixed finally but it was a cold day . Spring isn’t here yet
> 
> ...


Based on success of this item I ordered flexible shaft couplings which are just a little shorter slightly larger OD but still fit . Our inflation is just crazy  the cost of these since I first looked at them two weeks ago has nearly doubled .  I YHINK this will be a good solution to locking the eccentric on position as well as making it adjustable as needed .   I just looked at two other steamers that use the set screw method. I can’t really write it off as others are using it but I sure think there must be some scared  crankshafts out there . As far as timing goes  I haven’t seen any positive ways of doing this. I suppose you can looke at the ports in the valve chambers an more or less position the piston or slide valve  but I don’t think it gets optimum position   I’m thinking probably using som simple adjustable load and comparing pressure vs torque and maybe rpm  could be used for best performance under certain conditions all are variables  and I thought race cars had many variables . We aren’t even considering steam yet .  Well we will see how this shakes out .   I just want to get this system up and running.


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## Steamchick (Mar 30, 2022)

Hi Byron, I strongly advise you check the brass tube has adequate wall thickness for taking a thread. The Brass tube will be subjected to tensile loads, as well as hoop stress, and threads are horrible stress raisers. On top of that, at steam pressures and temperatures you have a loss of the order of 1/2 the yield strength of the brass..... If it is rated at 6 bar for normal room temperature, then it can only take less than half of that at superheated steam temperatures (I.E. less than 3 bar). A thread will reduce the wall thickness, thus raising the hoop and tensile stresses... This will be very significant. You can work out the safe working pressure reduction accordingly... Then you MUST consider the stress raiser of the thread causing a reduction for a factor of at least 3.5 .... 
Please use compression olives, or machined conical end fittings silver soldered to the brass tubes. Just like the rest of us "Steam buffs". 
Cheers, 
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, I strongly advise you check the brass tube has adequate wall thickness for taking a thread. The Brass tube will be subjected to tensile loads, as well as hoop stress, and threads are horrible stress raisers. On top of that, at steam pressures and temperatures you have a loss of the order of 1/2 the yield strength of the brass..... If it is rated at 6 bar for normal room temperature, then it can only take less than half of that at superheated steam temperatures (I.E. less than 3 bar). A thread will reduce the wall thickness, thus raising the hoop and tensile stresses... This will be very significant. You can work out the safe working pressure reduction accordingly... Then you MUST consider the stress raiser of the thread causing a reduction for a factor of at least 3.5 ....
> Please use compression olives, or machined conical end fittings silver soldered to the brass tubes. Just like the rest of us "Steam buffs".
> Cheers,
> K2


thank you for the  information  I much in joy discussing these things . This little engine is full of threaded fittings which I had concerns exactly as you described I don’t realy think this engine system will ever see anything close to high pressures,  now the boiler and superheater is a different story. So what you send as concerns are taken seriously  I don’t really like these threaded pipes that are used and I’m thinking and working on working around and making improved connections. I agree the olive connections will be a good improvement on connections  . I’ll be very cautious when getting into the advanced steam issues even my relatively simple boiler will be re examined as well as tested.  I had one fitting hat had both internal and external threads . Notice “ had”  the brass ipe is quite heavy wall and I’ve changed things around so there is less stress on connections . I have some stainless tubing used for brake lines this uses flared connection we have a double flare tool so it’s possible to make any kind of brake line. This stuff gets some incredible pressures at times especially disc brakes the flex hose has to be compatible too  even my simple air line connection is under review to be converted to use this rather than @ decorative “ brass  it’s easy to use brass as that seems standard other than copper . I see lots of copper things on the internet . It seems to work as long as the equipment is operated on condensed steam or vapor from boiling water. But “ real” steam is a different story as you pointed out. As it turns out you have been the first and only one to seem to question things . I much admire that. 

I’m frustrated that I can’t get out in the shop to create things I need  . The rest of the week has to be devoted to finishing the estate issues . As unpleasant as it is mentally it like high pressure steam . It has to be managed I have my own “ gages” blood pressure , blood ox content pulse monitor body temp. You would think I’m the steam engine . LOL I HAVE My own throttle.  

Byron

I’m reconsidering what I wanted to do as more “ dreaming” as opposed to reality. My air compressor makes 135 psi available but I seriously doubt I could even use that. .  It will be interesting to see some kind of torque curve and method of measuring it vs pressure . I’ll have the new couplings later today I  think  so I can finish getting these engine running


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## Steamchick (Mar 30, 2022)

Hi Byron,
Comments on Materials.
Stainless pipe for brakes, with the flared connection, is fine for Steam. I use copper brake pipe - as it is readily available and suits the size of pipework I want. I agree brass looks prettier. But Long-term, brass will de-Zincify. The Zinc will electrolytically "disappear" (it dissolves), leaving crumbly brass dust! Not good for carrying steam a high temperature. But Copper pipe does not do that, as it is just - Copper! The NWP of Brake pipe (5mm OD sold over in the UK) is about 30bar. (FOS of 8 and correlating for reduced tensile stress at Steam temperatures). So perfectly strong enough for carrying "Model" steam - which is limited in USA and Canada by the Regulations to steam at 100psi in Copper. (6Bar). 
Similarly, we have discussed Aluminium dissolving in Steam (produces Hydrogen gas - VERY explosive!), but you think you are going to stay cool enough not to have a problem.
The copper pipework I use takes standard olives and compression joint nuts very nicely. BUT the rivet counters always say the fittings look "too big, and out-of-place" on my models. But they are quick, re-usable, reliable and safe - which suits me. So I make brass connectors to screw into "the job", and these have the outer-end machined to suit the compression fitting and the 5mm copper pipe. I feel safer operating steam engines that way.
Cheers!
K2


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## Steamchick (Mar 30, 2022)

Byron, what size is your brass tubing?
K2


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> thank you for the  information  I much in joy discussing these things . This little engine is full of threaded fittings which I had concerns exactly as you described I don’t realy think this engine system will ever see anything close to high pressures,  now the boiler and superheater is a different story. So what you send as concerns are taken seriously  I don’t really like these threaded pipes that are used and I’m thinking and working on working around and making improved connections. I agree the olive connections will be a good improvement on connections  . I’ll be very cautious when getting into the advanced steam issues even my relatively simple boiler will be re examined as well as tested.  I had one fitting hat had both internal and external threads . Notice “ had”  the brass ipe is quite heavy wall and I’ve changed things around so there is less stress on connections . I have some stainless tubing used for brake lines this uses flared connection we have a double flare tool so it’s possible to make any kind of brake line. This stuff gets some incredible pressures at times especially disc brakes the flex hose has to be compatible too  even my simple air line connection is under review to be converted to use this rather than @ decorative “ brass  it’s easy to use brass as that seems standard other than copper . I see lots of copper things on the internet . It seems to work as long as the equipment is operated on condensed steam or vapor from boiling water. But “ real” steam is a different story as you pointed out. As it turns out you have been the first and only one to seem to question things . I much admire that.
> 
> I’m frustrated that I can’t get out in the shop to create things I need  . The rest of the week has to be devoted to finishing the estate issues . As unpleasant as it is mentally it like high pressure steam . It has to be managed I have my own “ gages” blood pressure , blood ox content pulse monitor body temp. You would think I’m the steam engine . LOL I HAVE My own throttle.
> 
> ...


ive got some 1/4” copper tube that will work or intake manifold and exhaust manifold also have a bunch of 1/4” 90 deg elbows the tube slips into  I’ll do a TIG silicone bronze braze when I’m ready the ports are threaded so I may make short thread cap screws with the stick I have I may have to just drill and tap mounting hole for the flanges  I think it will look nice I just have not gone there yet I’m making a die to shap a collector for 4 1/4” tubes and another for the intake . If 1/2” copper is annealed it shapes easily . I used this in some scale functioning wexhaust in our Rc warbirds .  Silicone bronze is very expensive but makes up for it by being very easy to braze the TIG allows easy heat adjustment  I have a very smooth foot pedal too . As much as the latest pulse controls are used I’m rather old school and learned to use a pulse method with the pedal long before the automated stuff. I learned to use any part of my body that moved to control the pedal.  I see well today but I still can use the pedal welding snd brazing in close quarters you operate by feel more than observation I think I seem to still have some feel left I can look at finished welds with mag glass to make sure they are correct . I’m glad I practiced “ welding sketches on my engineering grid paper my care person asked what I was doing one day . I said practicing. 
She said, what artwork? I said no, these are weld seams I’m welding them ???????together ?????   

Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> ive got some 1/4” copper tube that will work or intake manifold and exhaust manifold also have a bunch of 1/4” 90 deg elbows the tube slips into  I’ll do a TIG silicone bronze braze when I’m ready the ports are threaded so I may make short thread cap screws with the stick I have I may have to just drill and tap mounting hole for the flanges  I think it will look nice I just have not gone there yet I’m making a die to shap a collector for 4 1/4” tubes and another for the intake . If 1/2” copper is annealed it shapes easily . I used this in some scale functioning wexhaust in our Rc warbirds .  Silicone bronze is very expensive but makes up for it by being very easy to braze the TIG allows easy heat adjustment  I have a very smooth foot pedal too . As much as the latest pulse controls are used I’m rather old school and learned to use a pulse method with the pedal long before the automated stuff. I learned to use any part of my body that moved to control the pedal.  I see well today but I still can use the pedal welding snd brazing in close quarters you operate by feel more than observation I think I seem to still have some feel left I can look at finished welds with mag glass to make sure they are correct . I’m glad I practiced “ welding sketches on my engineering grid paper my care person asked what I was doing one day . I said practicing.
> She said, what artwork? I said no, these are weld seams I’m welding them ???????together ?????
> 
> Byron sorry I forgot to measure wall of the  brass pipe . It’s .032 in as close as I can measure with my “ very near” caliper


 byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 31, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> byron


I’ll be more gentle this time around.   The flywheel made a mess on the crankshaft I can fix it but I’ll be glad to use a clamping method instead of set screws  the bad part is this is the short side of the crank so not a lot of room. My thought was that the long ends would connect with the flywheel easier, plus’s it shows that in the assembly pictures.  So I may have to reverse the crank on one engine . It’s not hard but tedious there are lots of screws and bearing shells. 

I was adjusting the timing , engine stopped  before it stopped itself . Th timing between cylinders is different by measurement . I’m goingvto look very carefully as I reset things .  I think the timings Gould be the same cylinder to cylinder as the con rod bearings are in the same relative position . I’ll start with equal timing , keeping the difference in mind as a change if necessary  once this is established I’ll set the other engine up the same and test them individually . The flywheel is designed to connect both engines the cranks do line up near perfect . I have a flexible coupler in case I need it . I have an interconnecting hose or pipe so the intakes can be equal . It appears this is the intent .  Back in the days ofvthe big ten engine dragsters there was always a debate about equal timing vs off set both worked .    It will be fun to work with this feature. 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 31, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I’ll be more gentle this time around.   The flywheel made a mess on the crankshaft I can fix it but I’ll be glad to use a clamping method instead of set screws  the bad part is this is the short side of the crank so not a lot of room. My thought was that the long ends would connect with the flywheel easier, plus’s it shows that in the assembly pictures.  So I may have to reverse the crank on one engine . It’s not hard but tedious there are lots of screws and bearing shells.
> 
> I was adjusting the timing , engine stopped  before it stopped itself . Th timing between cylinders is different by measurement . I’m goingvto look very carefully as I reset things .  I think the timings Gould be the same cylinder to cylinder as the con rod bearings are in the same relative position . I’ll start with equal timing , keeping the difference in mind as a change if necessary  once this is established I’ll set the other engine up the same and test them individually . The flywheel is designed to connect both engines the cranks do line up near perfect . I have a flexible coupler in case I need it . I have an interconnecting hose or pipe so the intakes can be equal . It appears this is the intent .  Back in the days ofvthe big ten engine dragsters there was always a debate about equal timing vs off set both worked .    It will be fun to work with this feature.
> Byron


ive oiled things up pretty well now . Both engines turn over smoothly with no tight spots so I’m happy about that they realy don’t take much to turn them so I’ll not use any more pressure 
than necessary . I plan on using less than 10 psi for initial testing I’ll measure rpm with my electronic tach . That may be enough to run both at the same time . I have hose connection to permit this.


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## Steamchick (Apr 1, 2022)

Hi Byron,
Initially, I would reckon that SAME timing is best. That way you avoid the 2 cranks "fighting" across the coupling. a 45degree "out-of-phase" may seem like a smoother power delivery from the end of the crank, but will stress the coupling mightily as the torque peaks of one crank hit the torque troughs of the other, then back again. Much better to have them "in-phase". - IMHO.
K2


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## Bentwings (Apr 1, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron,
> Initially, I would reckon that SAME timing is best. That way you avoid the 2 cranks "fighting" across the coupling. a 45degree "out-of-phase" may seem like a smoother power delivery from the end of the crank, but will stress the coupling mightily as the torque peaks of one crank hit the torque troughs of the other, then back again. Much better to have them "in-phase". - IMHO.
> K2


that was my thought too.  I though that getting big engines to run the same speed with equal pressure would eliminate or reduce pulsing  the couplers can handle some depending on which style is used but we aren’t talking coupling two 800 hp engines together that run 7500 rpm or more. LOL   

Back to the shop 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Apr 1, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> that was my thought too.  I though that getting big engines to run the same speed with equal pressure would eliminate or reduce pulsing  the couplers can handle some depending on which style is used but we aren’t talking coupling two 800 hp engines together that run 7500 rpm or more. LOL
> 
> Back to the shop
> Byron


you really hit a point there  I’ll deal with the heat and pressure as you cautioned . I have som magnesium anodes that I’ll try fore anti corrosion that I used on my boat  these won’t be in fire situations or even melting temps I don’t like machining mag in the first place  I’ve seen enough mag fires over the years that I don’t intend to even do any machine work on them. On the boat they worked very well. Just a yearly replacement with periodical inspections . I’m planning a little test later done out doors of course just to see how these work in a steam environment Zinc Is harder to come by lately  but mag is still a good anodic material 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Apr 1, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> you really hit a point there  I’ll deal with the heat and pressure as you cautioned . I have som magnesium anodes that I’ll try fore anti corrosion that I used on my boat  these won’t be in fire situations or even melting temps I don’t like machining mag in the first place  I’ve seen enough mag fires over the years that I don’t intend to even do any machine work on them. On the boat they worked very well. Just a yearly replacement with periodical inspections . I’m planning a little test later done out doors of course just to see how these work in a steam environment Zinc Is harder to come by lately  but mag is still a good anodic material
> Byron


that’s my thought too . 

I just got another pair of couplers  I though I ordered 4 so I have to go back and check. I got the damaged shaft fixed finally . The flywheel must have had a small piece of steel caught in it I got a 6 mm drill bit to slip through it but there was a tight spot. I just kept working it by hand until the bit slid through then tried the W on the shaft . It fits nice now there may be a little out of roundness but it will have to be that way . I made a sketch of the existing timing by measurement so I just have to check the piston and connecting shaft lock nuts. Then lock tite them , much as I don’t like the wicking loc tite  I’ve managed to break it free by gently heating the shaft . That says something too . Hot steam isn’t goingvto do any good so I’ll have to be extra careful tightening the nuts there is not enough thread showing to double nut . I’m goingvto measure the shafts and thread count then I think new shafts with a few extra threads are in order I’ve go 2 new m 3 dies . I YHINK maybe 303 stainless might be the choice . It being a bit easier to machine I have extra stainless nuts  I looked at my lock nuts but there just isn’t much room .nylon lock features  did not fare well in vibration tests in industry .  Best was proper torque without washers  for locking adding heat just loosened lock tite .


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## Bentwings (Apr 2, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> that’s my thought too .
> 
> I just got another pair of couplers  I though I ordered 4 so I have to go back and check. I got the damaged shaft fixed finally . The flywheel must have had a small piece of steel caught in it I got a 6 mm drill bit to slip through it but there was a tight spot. I just kept working it by hand until the bit slid through then tried the W on the shaft . It fits nice now there may be a little out of roundness but it will have to be that way . I made a sketch of the existing timing by measurement so I just have to check the piston and connecting shaft lock nuts. Then lock tite them , much as I don’t like the wicking loc tite  I’ve managed to break it free by gently heating the shaft . That says something too . Hot steam isn’t goingvto do any good so I’ll have to be extra careful tightening the nuts there is not enough thread showing to double nut . I’m goingvto measure the shafts and thread count then I think new shafts with a few extra threads are in order I’ve go 2 new m 3 dies . I YHINK maybe 303 stainless might be the choice . It being a bit easier to machine I have extra stainless nuts  I looked at my lock nuts but there just isn’t much room .nylon lock features  did not fare well in vibration tests in industry .  Best was proper torque without washers  for locking adding heat just loosened lock tite .


i didn’t notice the difference in timing at first I YHINK I’ll pull the piston valve blocks off and compare where the piston valve ports are in relation to each other.  They are not the same at TDC  like I thought they should be even allowing for the crank rod journals being different angles . I have new m 3 dies and some 303 stainless round stock coming so I’ll
Make slightly longer connecting rods this will give mor threads through the pistons for the attaching nut . If necessary I’ll counter bore the cylinder heads for extra clearance . What really happened was the piston nut came loose this locked the rotating assembly. It must have happens just as the assembly was stopping as there is no marks where it might have been rattling around . Lucky me I guess. I didn’t really like the mounting as it was . I wish the piston was fitted with a wrist pin  rather than this bolt on method. But I see this done in other engines too .  I may just reconsider the piston myself and make the modifications. There is the cylinder packing gland to consider too so the new con rod won’t be as easy as a round rod . I’m thinking some kind of straight bore with the packing for sealing. Just more complications


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## Steamchick (Apr 3, 2022)

Hi Byron, you should not need the complexity of a wrist pin on the piston. In fact the rigid connection between the piston and cross head is standard for lots of reasons. The cross-head takes the side-thrust from the con-rod (as does an infernal combustion engine piston skirt) and the thin piston takes driving pressure alternating above and below the piston, so needs the seal at the gland to maintain the pressure during that power stroke. Hence a rigid connection is required to keep the cross-head, gland and piston in true alignment.
K2


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## Bentwings (Apr 3, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, you should not need the complexity of a wrist pin on the piston. In fact the rigid connection between the piston and cross head is standard for lots of reasons. The cross-head takes the side-thrust from the con-rod (as does an infernal combustion engine piston skirt) and the thin piston takes driving pressure alternating above and below the piston, so needs the seal at the gland to maintain the pressure during that power stroke. Hence a rigid connection is required to keep the cross-head, gland and piston in true alignment.
> K2


ok I’ll scrap that idea what you say makes sense and that is the way it works. The piston valves do slide smoothly . I got some Teflon tubing with 3 mm inside dia so I can make a solid packing that will expand as it is tightened . Also got new 3 mm dies so I can make new rods just a little longer . This wicking lock tite is like super glue it sets pretty fast , minutes and it is thickened.  
Another interruption there is a large custom car show. I was a member of the group through the car club I was in back then our club won the club display 3 years in a row . Our dragster won best appearing Ali those 3?years. We eere known as activists then not letting the sponsor group get away with any thing weird. I wish I had the picture of us “ outlaws that was taken when the promised tee shirts did not arrive in time for the event our grip removed or tee shirts then some one painted “ Where  are our tee shirts in black grease on our chests” all of us were guys hat got dirty at work or play . We then made a trip to the group meeting and all stood together displaying our displeasure .  No riots or violence . The group was a sub division of a major group of city politicians and “ important  “ people it was a very big deal back then as this group was highly respected in the public eyes. . We got our tee shirts about a week later with a price reduction. 

I ran into a couple of the guys that were there at the time today. We had a few good laughs together . So it was worth it today. I’m back at now . Hopefully get a test run in .


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## Bentwings (Apr 5, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> ok I’ll scrap that idea what you say makes sense and that is the way it works. The piston valves do slide smoothly . I got some Teflon tubing with 3 mm inside dia so I can make a solid packing that will expand as it is tightened . Also got new 3 mm dies so I can make new rods just a little longer . This wicking lock tite is like super glue it sets pretty fast , minutes and it is thickened.
> Another interruption there is a large custom car show. I was a member of the group through the car club I was in back then our club won the club display 3 years in a row . Our dragster won best appearing Ali those 3?years. We eere known as activists then not letting the sponsor group get away with any thing weird. I wish I had the picture of us “ outlaws that was taken when the promised tee shirts did not arrive in time for the event our grip removed or tee shirts then some one painted “ Where  are our tee shirts in black grease on our chests” all of us were guys hat got dirty at work or play . We then made a trip to the group meeting and all stood together displaying our displeasure .  No riots or violence . The group was a sub division of a major group of city politicians and “ important  “ people it was a very big deal back then as this group was highly respected in the public eyes. . We got our tee shirts about a week later with a price reduction.
> 
> I ran into a couple of the guys that were there at the time today. We had a few good laughs together . So it was worth it today. I’m back at now . Hopefully get a test run in .


I did consider the brass pipes that came in the assembly . I didn’t likevtahr some were used fo “ hang” things on or support other parts . I have the doubly ugly hose now replacing this. It still requires a brass fitting to make the hard connection. Anything I need to make will be bronze or stainless from here out . Most likely I’ll be relegated to using  water laden “ steam vapor” like many others . I can see slimy messes but I’ll be able to control that I YHINK . It mainly getting things back together . In looking at timing and what I see others doing I think I’ll be ok. I just looked for some small degree wheels that I could permanently mount . Looks like a custom part I YHINK also we use special degrees tape to install on crank pulleys on the hot rods. Of cours nothing exists for our models. I even looked at whit vinyl electrical tape . Checked prices on that lately ? Well I don’t need 100 yds for sure. I did find flat white model pant so I YHINK I’ll just use that and scribe timing mark in it . Itvrenewable too . I have a distal angle square that works very well . I was justvgettingvreadyvtobre test at the stop point but I’m goingvto te set everything according to what I have gained in the last week. I had to start from an “ about” position so I’ll have much more accurate start point that I can record an make calibrated moves . Now that I have a better understandindingbofvhowctge piston valve works. Everything seems pretty well fixed now . Definitely will use low and gradual pressure. I do have a throttle valve to mount . I’ll try and put a pressure gage in the intake line so I can see what the engine is using .  Another very windy nasty day today.. not going out today if I don’t have to . 

In view ofvthe see though small engine tests going on I considered making a clear plastic piston valve chamber but I don’t really have an easy way to create a polished bore for the piston valve . . I YHINK it will be enough to be able to adjust the position and observe how it runs. 

Byron


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## Bentwings (Apr 5, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron,
> Initially, I would reckon that SAME timing is best. That way you avoid the 2 cranks "fighting" across the coupling. a 45degree "out-of-phase" may seem like a smoother power delivery from the end of the crank, but will stress the coupling mightily as the torque peaks of one crank hit the torque troughs of the other, then back again. Much better to have them "in-phase". - IMHO.so far it’s been a bad day terrible weather. Then I just could not get the crankshafts smooth enough. I really did a number on them. They don’t look very bad but everything fits so close that thes lightest burr or imperfection locks things up . I finally got the small steel flywheel to fit and one of the eccentrics bak together . They have a central main bearing then a bolt on retaining flange these have flat head screws locating and attaching . I originally assembled them on a straight shaft to make sure the shaft holes stayed in alignment . It’s taken a while but I finally got them back together an cleaned out the shaft holes. I had to wrap a small strip of very fine Emory paper aroun the plain end of a drill bit to hone them out the retainer flange gets out of position due to the flathead screw counter sink holes . I got bit to fit now but I had to tsk the piston port cylinders off to remove the eccentrics  from the crank shafts  I going to got metric  end mills today so I’m going to  try and counter bore a couple shaft collars so I can use them as clamping locks so I can leave the set screws out . This will give me the adjustability I noted . I have some couplers that could serve the same purpose but I can save some shaft length by using the collars . There are not collars like this available that I could find. I may be able to screw a small collar to a counter bored one . That would make the adjustment easier . I did a bunch of reading on piston port or valve timing today . I YHINK what I’m trying to do is consistent to eat is done in larger scale  I also looked for some small degree wheels but I think I’ll just have to mark the flywheels like we mark auto front dampeners for visible timing . They note having a small space above and below the power piston for cushioning  I have that  so hopefully the Port timing will be such that it pis used,
> K2


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## Bentwings (Apr 7, 2022)

im working on things now I’ve got couplers shaft collars . I’ve even got some with bores too small. I just wish I could get to the shop to fix some of this tomorrow I’m goingvto try and counter bore a couple shaft collars with an end mill in the Mickey mous drill press. I actually have an exact fitting coupling so I may use thatvtonjojoin  the engines   The main flywheel has a bit larger hub and I couldn’t get a coupling for it to the two shafts  I’m goingvto try and drill and tap a couple collars the screw them together temp fix. Essentially it will make a solid coupling just shorter. On eccentric cut a deep scratch in the crankshaft that just took forever to polish out. The cranks are stainless an I suspect quite hard due to work hardening in machining.  They obviously used some very fine feeds as finishbis smooth but the surface is hard. My small fils just slid over the grooves . It took a lot of polishing with several grades of Emory paper to fixe the damage yet not reduce the diameter . I had to run scrap through the set screw holes to pick the bent threads out once I got that cleared I finished the bores nicely . Parts all are nice slip fits very close to original. I did a temporary mount of one flywheel and eccentric then went through the timing process I came up with. I can now verify  power piston TDC and BDC then measure the piston valve position with my “ very near” calipers  they or it reads metric , English English fractions to 1/64 and decimal .  I can set the piston valve pretty exact now that I know that works it will be a matter of testing and seeing results  then making a chart.  I don’t know if system pressure, rpm and timing are related close enough to take note, but now I’ll be able to test it . Certainly better than the “ about thing in pictures . “   I have connecting hoses already made to join both engines once get both running the same tune up . Drag racing term .  Since these will be operating on compressed air to start with I can call the operating pressure “ boost” since it essentially is supercharging. I’m goingvto go much easier starting this time around I didn’t have much pressure originally but I’m more conservative this time around . The hose is so ugly but it’s very strong. I’m sure I could use smaller nicer looking hose but function is the driver here. 
I got a nifty very small electric screw driver for installing and removing screws. It has both 1/4” hex and some other much smaller hex . Look like watch making drivers. It’s supposed to rain and sleet allthecrestvofcthecweek .  I’ll only havectongonoutvto take the garbage out . I hate to see the heat bill this month . 
Byron


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