# Henry Ford Engine



## vascon2196

Hello everyone...I am two weeks into building Henry Ford's first stationary I.C. engine. I've always wanted to build a I.C. engine and decided to build Henry's first and go from there. I am going to try and stay as true to the original design as possible changing only a couple of things. I am purchasing a nice flywheel casting instead of an old lathe handwheel and the ignition source will be an NGK-Cm6 spark plug instead of the homemade tungsten/brass version that Ford used.

Here are some pictures I have taken over the past two weeks.

Hope you like it.

Chris






Centering the 1" pipe plug to help establish cylinder height





Boring back of 1" pipe plug to accept an aluminum plug





Boring one end of 1" pipe nipple to accept an automotive freeze plug





Finished 1" pipe nipple with freeze plug loc-tited in





Centering 1" pipe tee in four-jaw and boring out for cylinder





Cylinder cut oversize and ready for facing to finished length





3/4" NPT and 3/8" NPT pipe taps and (expensive) tap drills





12V ignition coil





Globe valve / stop and waste valve dismantled





Valve body and valve bonnet ready for modifications





Here is the original engine I am going to TRY and replicate


----------



## kcmillin

It is 2-stroke, or 4-stroke?
Is there any more pics of the original?
Did henry build this himself?
Where did you find plans?
Is this considered a Ford engine?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am verry interested in this build.
kel


----------



## vascon2196

Kel,

I believe it is a 2-stroke. This engine was built by Henry Ford himself and run for the first time in his kitchen. The link I have attached will explain where to purchase the plans.

Here is a link to a website by someone who has built the engine. There are some great pictures attached along with where to purchase the plans. I also purchased the plans from Leon Ridenour in TN (865-584-9759) which included the plans, an instructional DVD, piston ring, and 2-gasoline screens all for $30.00.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/jbailey/frsteng.htm

Here is another link with more great pictures and a story of the engine.

http://nbutterfield.com/e.aspx


I hope this helped!

Chris


----------



## kcmillin

Thanks Chris.

Cool stuff.

kel


----------



## cfellows

Actually, it's a 4 stroke. The cam turns at half the speed of the crankshaft and opens the exhaust valve every other crankshaft revolution. The intake valve is vacuum operated by the piston on the intake stroke.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

Thanks Chuck.


----------



## vascon2196

Here are some more pictures. Sorry for the lousy pictures...it's an old camera.





1" pipe plug with an aluminum slug loc-tited in place





Completed valve guide





Valve rough turned and waiting for silver solder





Having fun dry fitting everything together


----------



## bearcar1

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Here are some more pictures. Sorry for the lousy pictures...it's an old camera.



Oh sure, blame it on the equipment..... :big: :big:


BC1
Jim


----------



## vascon2196

An old friend once told me..."a good craftsman never blames his tools".

It's so true.

But that camera.......ugh...


----------



## vascon2196

It's been a while...my tooling inventory just isn't quite their yet. This project has cost a lot more than I thought but at least I have aquired some great tools that I can use on future projects.

Here are some of the latest build pictures.





Exhaust valve nearly complete





Milling off drain boss





Exhaust valve sub-assembly coming together

Tonight I will be completing the exhaust valve sub-assembly by silver soldering the valve guide and adding the spring


----------



## arnoldb

That's coming along very well Chris Thm:

Regards, Arnold


----------



## vascon2196

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> That's coming along very well Chris Thm:
> 
> Regards, Arnold



Thank you Arnold!


----------



## vascon2196

Dry fitting the combustion chamber, intake, and exhaust

The piston is nearly complete.

The next big item will be the steel frame.

Chris


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Looking great Chris.


----------



## Generatorgus

Chris, I'm following this build with a lot of interest. I am a total novice at building something that actually runs, although I've been messing around with doll house scale static models for some time, and still pretty novice at that, only a drill press for machine work. Finally got a lathe and eventually a mill drill, now trying to learn how to use them. I should have paid more attention in high school shop. Lately, I have found this web site and and have been pouring thru it. I'm finally thinking there is a spec of light at the end of the tunnel.
I decided to build a half scale Henry Ford, without plans, after I saw an article in Gas Engine Mag. Looked simple, "any fool can build this" I thought, and I really got fooled. Started about a year and a half ago and finally got it to run last fall. Got thru most of it on second or third tries. The only thing I gave up on was the exhaust valve. After ruining 4 globe valves I beat the hell out of my final try with a 10" adjustable wrench and ruined the cylinder in the process. I finally ended up making a crude valve cage housed in a 1/4" tee, made an entirely new cylinder and piston, this time it worked.
At any rate, I'm still very curious as to how you get all the pieces of this rather uncomplicated looking valve to line up. Do you have any pictures showing more details of it? I'm missing the boat here.
Thanks, GUS


----------



## vascon2196

Gus....thanks for your interest in this build. You should post some pictures of the scaled version...I'm sure others (including myself) would be interested in seeing it.

As for lining up the exhaust valve: I basically followed the instructions on the plans I purchased which also came with an instructional DVD on how to build this engine. First I took the original globe valve apart, leveled the valve body in the milling machine vise, and centered the machine spindle using the valve seat bore. For me this was the hardest part. Then I drilled and reamed a 1/4" hole through. Then I bored through the original valve seat with a 5/8" end mill. Then I torqued the valve bonnet in place, marked it, and using a 1/2" end mill....bored into the bonnet leaving a minimum shoulder to solder on the valve stem guide. All this was done without moving the globe valve.

When I have time, I will put a drawing together and post it. (hope this helps for now)

Chris


----------



## Generatorgus

Chris, that pretty much explains my failures. I started on the valve bonnet and guide and tried to use the guide as a drill guide to bore thru the bottom of the valve. Every time the drill wandered off leaving the holes out of alignment. I used the original seat, which lined up pretty good, but had to clearance drill the bottom hole. Two of the valves would seal in a vertical position, but not horizontally. I also had to use a check ball in the intake, as I couldn't find a reasonably sized flapper valve.
Thanks
GUS


----------



## vascon2196

Very cool Gus! Did you create a set of plans for this engine? Does it run good?

I like it....nice job.

Chris


----------



## BobWarfield

Sweet project.

I was just reflecting the other day, on my way out of a hardware store, how many plumbing fixtures I've bought in my life without ever having used them for plumbing. In this case I cheated a bit, I was plumbing a compressed air system for the shop, but still, I've never done any domestic plumbing after all that. I've made telescope mounts and all sorts of other odd things, just never moved any water through a pipe.

Good to know Henry Ford made good use of plumbing fixtures too!

Cheers,

BW


----------



## Generatorgus

Chris, no I didn't draw up plans, just a lot of rough sketches. I spent considerable time scaling various pieces from the photos in the magazine article.
And no, I wouldn't call it a good runner, but I'm happy to say it is a runner. It sputters and pops, runs at all different speeds with no coaxing and eventually floods out and dies, but I never had any problem with overheating, probably because of the flooding and maybe the brass body tee wicks off some of the heat. The needle valve I made meters the fuel quite well, but the engine always stalls if I try to lean it out. Best time running was 15 minutes or so. I'd have to say some of the sputtring problem is from the check ball bouncing around. I get much better results running it on Coleman fuel in lieu of gasoline.
I'm just recently playing around making new valves from 1/8 street ells with a valve body pressed in. They are quite simple and seem like they will work. I know that is getting away from the original design, but after reading Ckuck's build and finding that I already did a lot of things different than the original, what the heck. 
GUS
BTW, Chuck, if you read this I followed your build, it was great.


----------



## vascon2196

The piston is finished! I decided to go with 6061-T6 aluminum because I had some, though I would have like to have made the piston from cast iron instead. I don't plan on running the engine for long periods of time so hopefully thermal expansion won't be much of an issue. There is only one way I'm going to find out.

Unfortunately my camera does the piston NO justice...I think it came out looking pretty nice and the dimensions are right on the money. It slides right down the cylinder (with the help of some oil of course). However, when I installed the piston rod (dowel pin), it sticks out just enough on each side of the piston to prevent it from sliding down the cylinder. I'm going to try and grind the ends of the dowel pin slightly. This might be tricky due to the hardness of the pin. I'll let you know how I make out. 

Next will be the connecting rod.


----------



## Deanofid

Really good progress, Chris. 
You'll be able to grind that piston pin just fine. Grinders don't care about hardened steel. (Think of grinding HSS tool bits.)

Keep up the good work!

Dean


----------



## cfellows

Nice work, Chris. I wouldn't worry about the aluminum piston too much. If you use an o-ring like I did, you can make the piston kind of a loose fit and expansion won't bother a thing. My plumbing engine has an aluminum piston with a plain old neoprene o-ring and I get good compression. My engine has gotten pretty hot a couple of times when I ran it hard and the piston didn't seize nor did the o-ring seem to suffer any ill affect.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Dean! I'm going to try grinding it this weekend.

Thank you Chuck! I'm surprised the "plain-jane" o-ring works....that's good to know. I know it's going to be a while until I run this engine but I can't wait to try.

Thanks again.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

I know it's been a while...LIFE kinda got in the way.

I have finished the timing gears for the engine (finally) and am almost done with the base. On Monday I will be line-reaming the two holes for the crank shaft. I will also be "tramming" a mill for the first time! I got a really great traming crash course on Thursday from a 30-year veteran machinist.

I will take lots of pictures of the Ford engine's progress next week.

Until then.


----------



## cfellows

Good to see you back a it. I love my little Henry Ford Engine. I keep it in the shop and start it up at least once a day just to watch it run. Can't seem to walk by it without connecting up the battery and giving the flywheel a spin. Usually starts on the second or third spin.

Chuck


----------



## Deanofid

Glad to see you getting back to it, Chris! Any pics of your gear making process for us?

Dean


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Chuck...I can't wait to get mine running as well.

Thank you Dean. The gears were purchased from Boston Gear and came with a minimum plain bore. I bored each gear to suit.

Someday I will attempt to make gear teeth from scratch...someday


----------



## vascon2196

Here are some updated pictures! These pictures are of the base. My next step is too mesh the gears and locate the hole for the large gear.


----------



## bearcar1

Dowel pins. I'm likin' it Chris. Sometimes, good things are worth waiting for, I'm glad to see you back in the saddle.

BC1
Jim


----------



## b.lindsey

Chris, am happy to see this thread pick back up...something about the simplicity, use of off the shelf parts, and historical value that is just fascinating regarding these engines. I saw one running a couple of years ago and was hooked on it then. Maybe one day I'll get around to making one, but in the meantime am enjoying your build. Pretty amazing how far we've come since those days.

Regards,
Bill


----------



## vascon2196

Thanks Bill...

The flywheel casting should arrive this week. I'm hoping to have the gears broached this week also. We'll see what time alows me to accomplish.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Here is a picture of the _almost_ complete frame. I still need to line ream the bushings and did not have a 5/8" reamer.






Chris


----------



## Deanofid

The frame is looking good, Chris. It's a good idea, reaming the bushings after they're put in.

Dean


----------



## vascon2196

I just broached for the first time!....not as exciting as I thought it was going to be but it worked great and that's all that matters.






Chris


----------



## b.lindsey

Looks like it worked fine to me Chris....it does take a bit more force than you expect though, or at least i thought so the first time i did it. 

Bill


----------



## Lakc

Looks real good. A keyway broach set has been on "that list" for a long time. Then I suppose I will want an arbor press.... 

How much force did it seem to take?


----------



## b.lindsey

An arbor press is definitely in order, the size will depend on how large a keyway you are cutting, the material, and what other needs you may have for it of course.

Bill


----------



## vascon2196

Lakc  said:
			
		

> Looks real good. A keyway broach set has been on "that list" for a long time. Then I suppose I will want an arbor press....
> 
> How much force did it seem to take?



Not sure...here is what I used. This is the only one we have in the shop.






Chris


----------



## te_gui

Broaching typically doesn't take much force for the size keys found in our stuff. I have done it with the quill in a drill press but typically I have a taper plug (cut off drill) I put in the tailstock and broach the part while its still in the lathe after finishing the bore. You have to make the guide bushing first, but that makes a nice plug gage while you are opening up the bore


----------



## vascon2196

Here are pictures of the flywheel casting from Martin Model and Casting. I never machined anything this large before so hopefully I didn't screw it up. I turned the outside diamter to clean, faced it, drilled & bored to 0.625". I don't like how it cleaned up nice on one end of the flywheel and it kept cutting further down towards the center. I have the runout within .002 to .003 thousandths and don't want to risk taking any more material off.

I suppose I could mask the outer face and paint the spokes and it won't be as noticable. I'm just not happy with how the face came out.

















Chris


----------



## vascon2196

This picture is not much different than the one above except it has been line reamed...and the crankshaft actually fit!!! And it spins freely!!!!!

Very exiting.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Here is the picture of the completed frame. I keyed the shaft and installed the gears. I also added a #3-48 set screw to the small gear.

The remaining pictures show the progress of the crank. I wanted to teach myself how to use the Prototrak and in a couple of days I finally got the program to work correctly. Now I have to mill off the rest. The next time I make this I'm going to fasten the crank down to a fixture plate so I don't have so much milling to do. Now that I can use the Prototrak I can make all kinds of crazy parts.

Next week will be the cam.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Having some trouble with the wood base. Actually with the center height between the combustion chamber and the crank frame. It seems that I need to bring the combustion chamber down about a 1/2" for everything to line up properly. I can't fit the wood base in my mill but I guess I could ass a 1/2" spacer plate under the crank frame.

Has anyone else run into this issue when building the Henry Ford stationary engine? If so, what was your fix?

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## ghart3

Chris, an idea would be to lower the combustion chamber.
Find another nipple that will thread in 1/2" more than the one you got.
Chase the nipple threads you have to get them to screw in further.
Tap the floor flange and or tee more to get them to screw in further.

Built a half size Ford engine using 1/2" tee.  A problem had with the wood base was the crank frame and the floor flange both worked in the wood and rocked back and forth. Made steel plates and inlet in the wood base and drilled and tapped. Then bolted the top pieces to this.  This solved my problem, you might not have this problem if using hardwood, my base was a softer wood, an old 2 by 6.





			
				vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Having some trouble with the wood base. Actually with the center height between the combustion chamber and the crank frame. It seems that I need to bring the combustion chamber down about a 1/2" for everything to line up properly. I can't fit the wood base in my mill but I guess I could ass a 1/2" spacer plate under the crank frame.
> 
> Has anyone else run into this issue when building the Henry Ford stationary engine? If so, what was your fix?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Didn't think to chase the threads.

Thanks.

Chris


----------



## cfellows

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Having some trouble with the wood base. Actually with the center height between the combustion chamber and the crank frame. It seems that I need to bring the combustion chamber down about a 1/2" for everything to line up properly. I can't fit the wood base in my mill but I guess I could ass a 1/2" spacer plate under the crank frame.
> 
> Has anyone else run into this issue when building the Henry Ford stationary engine? If so, what was your fix?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris



I had the same problem on my plumbing parts engine. I put a 1/2" spacer block under the crankshaft assembly. Worked fine.






Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Chuck. This is exactly what I am going to do tonight.

Another issue I have is that the cylinder is angled up slightly which doesn't help. I have a feeling the floor flange is uneven and that is being transferred up through the combustion assembly.

Thanks again Chuck.

Chris


----------



## cfellows

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Thank you Chuck. This is exactly what I am going to do tonight.
> 
> Another issue I have is that the cylinder is angled up slightly which doesn't help. I have a feeling the floor flange is uneven and that is being transferred up through the combustion assembly.
> 
> Thanks again Chuck.
> 
> Chris



Yeah, those floor flanges are pretty rough. I screwed a short length of pipe nipple into mine, then chucked it up in the lathe and faced off the bottom of the flange to get it square and flat. That made everything square and parallel with the base.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

I was able to chase the flange threads a bit and torqued the nipple in a bit more. This helped with the height difference between the combustion chamber and crank assembly. I built a robust wooden base and coated the top with six coats of polyurethane. I used brass inserts to thread into the wood and then fastened everything down with socket cap screws. I still have to make the pusher rod support brackets, buy a 12V battery, on-off switch, and continue fumbling around with the oiler.

I cannot solder AT ALL, and after several attempts I am making a new stem for the oiler.

Here are some pictures of what I have so far.

Chris






[IMG
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]
http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx257/vascon2196/Henry%20Ford%20Engine/FORDENGINE12-18-2010003.jpg[/IMG]


----------



## arnoldb

Coming along nicely Chris Thm:

Regards, Arnold


----------



## vascon2196

Does anyone have a good picture of the electrics for this engine. I am a mechanical guy and get nervous around this stuff. I just purchased a 12V battery, I have the 5-wire relay, and ignition coil. I do not have an "on-off" switch.

I don't know if I need a single pole or double pole or what?

There was an electrical schematic with the plans but it might as well been in chinese.

Thanks for any help.

Chris


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Are you running points and condenser?---if so, send me your phone number---brian


----------



## jct842

The more I read, the more I want to build a henry ford engine too. I would probably like to make a scaled down version. I have several questions that would probably be best answered by purchasing the plans but until then: on the full scale version what is the diameter of the flywheel? The bore diameter and length of the stroke? I am assuming bore is 1" and wondering how small this engine could be scaled to. Does any one have any guess as to the compression ratio? I would think it is fairly low.  When chuck said he likes to start his a lot that makes me want one even more.  John  ;D


----------



## vascon2196

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Are you running points and condenser?---if so, send me your phone number---brian



Hi Brian,

I don't think so. The plans call out for a 12V battery, relay, on-off switch, and ignition coil. I'm pretty sure I can figure it out if I stare at videos and pictures long enough but I prefer details.

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

jct842  said:
			
		

> The more I read, the more I want to build a henry ford engine too. I would probably like to make a scaled down version. I have several questions that would probably be best answered by purchasing the plans but until then: on the full scale version what is the diameter of the flywheel? The bore diameter and length of the stroke? I am assuming bore is 1" and wondering how small this engine could be scaled to. Does any one have any guess as to the compression ratio? I would think it is fairly low. When chuck said he likes to start his a lot that makes me want one even more. John ;D



Off the top of my head I think the flywheel was 13 or 14 inches in diameter. The plans are in my shop which is 100ft into the woods covered in 8 inches of snow. 

The bore diameter I think was 1-1/8" diameter with a 21 inch stroke.

Chris


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I just looked at the second link in reply #2, and he is running with a model T "trembler" coil, which is a totally different animal from what you have. And even it has a cam and a set of breaker points. With a coil like you have, you need a set of points which are opened and closed by a cam to "break the circuit" in the primary coil windings, in order to induce a high voltage in the secondary windings of the coil to "fire" the sparkplug. And if you want the points to last longer than 20 minutes, you will have to run a condenser with the points to prevent the backsurge of current induced in the primary windings by the collapse of the field in the secondary windings from burning the points up.


----------



## cfellows

jct842  said:
			
		

> The more I read, the more I want to build a henry ford engine too. I would probably like to make a scaled down version. I have several questions that would probably be best answered by purchasing the plans but until then: on the full scale version what is the diameter of the flywheel? The bore diameter and length of the stroke? I am assuming bore is 1" and wondering how small this engine could be scaled to. Does any one have any guess as to the compression ratio? I would think it is fairly low. When chuck said he likes to start his a lot that makes me want one even more. John ;D



I originally scaled my engine down to a 5/8" bore and 2" stroke, with a 7.25" flywheel. However, it didn't have enough power so I increased the bore to 7/8" but left the stroke at 2". I used 3/4" plumbing parts.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I just looked at the second link in reply #2, and he is running with a model T "trembler" coil, which is a totally different animal from what you have. And even it has a cam and a set of breaker points. With a coil like you have, you need a set of points which are opened and closed by a cam to "break the circuit" in the primary coil windings, in order to induce a high voltage in the secondary windings of the coil to "fire" the sparkplug. And if you want the points to last longer than 20 minutes, you will have to run a condenser with the points to prevent the backsurge of current induced in the primary windings by the collapse of the field in the secondary windings from burning the points up.



Can I buy a condenser from McMaster Carr?

Chris


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Since I don't have the specifics of your engine here in front of me, I can only offer this advise. Any 12 volt condenser will do, but if you want part numbers, go to my thread on building the Kerzel engine and read it through---I have a couple of good shots of the points and condenser, where I installed them on the engine, and the part numbers of the points and condenser. Points don't generally care to much whether its 6 volts or 12 volts going thru them. I can phone you and tell you how to hook it up, or do a cheap and dirty sketch and email it to you.---Brian


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you very much Brian. If I run into any problems I will definately let you know.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Here are some pictures of the modified oiler and some of the ignition components. I just finished the push rod supports and mounted them. I used standard bronze bushings and tapped the supports at a slight angle instead of countersinking to a knife edge like the plans called out for. Next I need to make a contact with the exhaust cam. After that....the part that really makes me nervous is wiring this thing up. I have taken pictures of the plans I have which show a schematic. The last thing I want to do is have this thing blow up in my face.

























































This is what's been helping me stay out in the shed...Christmas gift from my wife.


----------



## Jack B

Hi Chris: Nice talking to you at the NEMES show today. Here is the wire diagram I used on my engine.         Jack B


----------



## vascon2196

Hi Jack,

Nice talking with you as well. This is perfect!

Now I want to get out in the shop and get this engine finished once and for all.

I will let you know the results.

Thank you again.

Chris


----------



## ozzie46

Now thats a wiring diagram I can understand!!! :big: :big: :big:

 Thanks for posting that Jack B.

 Ron


----------



## vascon2196

After leaving the NEMES show yesterday afternoon I took back with me a better understanding of how this engine is going to operate. I listened to lot's of feedback from lot's of different folks. Thanks again to everyone who helped guide me in the right direction.

I just bought my first Ford Buzz Coil from Ebay. I have not had much luck with Ebay in the past but I did not see another place online to buy these things.

Now I need to get an on/off switch.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Just got the engine timed. Come on warmer weather!!!

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

It's been a while but I FINALLY got this engine wired up. I got a spark from the antique Ford ignition coil using a 6V rechargeable power wheels battery. A put a small amount of gas into it and spun the flywheel.

Nothing happened.


I'll try again this weekend and take some pictures. I tried to run the engine without using a piston ring or O-ring...maybe that is why?

This weekend!

Chris


----------



## arnoldb

I'll hold thumbs for you Chris - good luck for the weekend!

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## Lakc

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> It's been a while but I FINALLY got this engine wired up. I got a spark from the antique Ford ignition coil using a 6V rechargeable power wheels battery. A put a small amount of gas into it and spun the flywheel.
> 
> Nothing happened.
> 
> 
> I'll try again this weekend and take some pictures. I tried to run the engine without using a piston ring or O-ring...maybe that is why?



As we say in the business; Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow. Doing all those at the right time and they magically keep running. Rings help with the suck and squeeze parts.


----------



## metalmad

hay Cris
is that a relay beside your coil or a condensor?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Its a relay.


----------



## vascon2196

metalmad  said:
			
		

> hay Cris
> is that a relay beside your coil or a condensor?



It was a relay but I decided not to use it. I bought a buzz coil off ebay and wired it up per photographs that came with the plans.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Still can't get this damn thing to run!

I put the split ring that came with the plans on the piston. Checked my timing and put a small amount of fuel in the resevoir.

I spun the flywheel a few times until (BANG)....it finally did something. That was it though...a loud (BANG) out of the exhaust but it did not turn over the flywheel. I kep having to turn the flywheel manually and it kept (poofing) out of the exhaust port.

Should it do that?

I thought the explosion was supposed to happen inside the combustion chamber and push the piston out of the way.



I almost threw the whole engine in the woods and covered it with dirt.



But I put it back in my shop for another day when I'm not so pissed.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Sounds like the cam timing is off and there is a fire when or just before the valve is opening.


----------



## cfellows

Could be an ignition timing issue as well. The ignition should fire right about at or a tad before top dead center. The exhaust valve should then open at about bottom dead center.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

Thanks guys...I will check my timing.

Could it be the valve spring? Not enough force to keep the valve closed during combustion? Just thinking outloud.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Adjusted the timing...still nothing. It "poofed" a couple of times but that's it.

I'll try something else next weekend when I've cooled down.

Chris


----------



## Jack B

Hi Chris: Sorry to hear your H.Ford engine is giving you trouble. Two weeks ago Saturday I went to the Tractor and Truck show at the Francis Farm in Rehoboth MA. I was introduced to a father and son team that have about 40 make or brake engines all running. They have about eight of them on display in the museum there. I went home and got my model steam engine and model IC engine that I completed in the winter and showed them to them. No problem with the steam engine it ran nicely on air from the git go. However like you and I discussed at the Waltham show I was a little unsure about the wiring and timing of the IC engine. 
They also said the same thing as Chuck Fellows said in his post. Ignition should fire just before top dead center and exhaust should be at about bottom dead center. The wiring diagram which I posted for you a while ago should work, that is what I used. They said my intake valve spring was too strong because you should see the intake valve pop a slight bit when you turn the flywheel. They showed me one of their engines that was using a buzz coil. The top side port is positive + from the battery. The side port just below it goes to the points and the port right on the bottom of the coil goes to ground or negative. If you are hooked up right and rotate your flywheel slowly you should get a spot where the buzz coil sounds like a bee buzzing. I figure my engine should be ready to go on Thursday so I made an appointment with my self to spend the day getting it going. After talking to them I have more confidence.
A crowd of people gathered around the table where we were looking at the engines at the tractor show. I think a Henry Ford Engine would attract a large crowd at a show like this. I hope this helps.                       Jack B


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Jack...it does help.

Last night I went to bed thinking about what the problem might be with my engine. I said to myself "it's exploding out of the exhaust port"...why? It should be exploding in the combustion chamber forcing the piston out of the way but for some reason it's overcoming the spring force on the valve. The majority of the explosion is being wasted out to atmosphere.

I decided to increase the spring force by tightening the set screw....same thing happened.

I decided to melt some old fishining weights I had in the cracks and crevices of the chamber....same thing happened.


First thing this morning I looked at the pictures that came with the plans. There is an arrow on the stop-and-waste valve facing the combustion chamber! I have mine facing in the opposite direction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-[

HOW DID I MISS THAT! No wonder why the explosion is forcing the valve open!!! I can't believe this happened...SH-T happens. I have read and created blueprints for the past 15 years!!!

The drawing has this labeled as well...I missed it twice. Of course I used thread locker and JB Weld so it should be quite interesting getting the sucker off.


----------



## Lakc

That's guaranteed to happen at least twice a project for me, dont feel bad. 
A little heat will help with the threadlocker.


----------



## vascon2196

O.K.

I flipped the exhaust valve around so that it's facing the right direction. That was fun.

Tried to start it again and NOTHING. It puffed a couple of times but I had to manually rotate the flywheel in order to do so. When it did "poof" it barely moved the flywheel.

It seems like it doesn't have enough power to do what it's supposed to do. Should I take the combustion chamber apart (again) and fill every nook and cranny with lead? Will this really help?

I can't wait to finish this and move on to an air engine that I _CAN_ get running....very frustrating........


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Vascon---Where do you live? This is driving me crazy!!! I may have to hitchhike to your place and help you to get that thing running!! When they are that close, and you have enough compression to make the piston "bounce" back when you flip the flywheel by hand, it shouldn't take nearly that much agravation to make them run.---Brian


----------



## bearcar1

Hello Chris, I've been following along in the shadows watching your progress and am sorry to see that you are having so muck difficulty getting you H. Ford to light up. I've reviewed the past several pages and I do not see any reference to valve sealing but I did see that you had the valve backackwards :-X s**t happens. I wonder, could your compression ratio be too low? How much 'kickback' in the flywheel exists when you give it a quick flip? 

Following with increased interest

BC1
Jim


----------



## vascon2196

I appreciate the feedback guys....I love the passion in this forum. There is nobody more frustrated than me. I will try and take a short video at some point today along with some pictures of the whole operation. Brian...thank you, I'm getting there. It must be painful for some of you to read all of this.

I used lapping compound for the valve seat. I don't think it's a "perfect" seal but now that I have the valve facing the correct direction it doesn't combust out the exhaust port.

Thanks again...you guys are great!

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

No, it's not running yet. 

Do you think it's because of the exhaust valve not sealing correctly?







If you notice in the picture, I added a small 45-degree chamfer. Should there be a larger lead-in chamfer...30-degrees? I heard air weezing out of the exhaust valve when it was closed. I got it to POP a couple of times but it did not move the flywheel.


----------



## vascon2196

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Vascon---Where do you live? This is driving me crazy!!! I may have to hitchhike to your place and help you to get that thing running!! When they are that close, and you have enough compression to make the piston "bounce" back when you flip the flywheel by hand, it shouldn't take nearly that much agravation to make them run.---Brian



Brian...I'm about ready to take you up on your offer.

Chris


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Vascon---I don't know if you followed my Kerzel build or not, but I had one Hell of a time getting the valves to seal. I redid the head, I redid the valves, I built valve cages---it went on and on. And there simply was no way it was going to run untill I got those valves to seal as tight as a ducks butt!!! Eventually, with guidance from a couple of other senior members on this forum, I built a "valve seat cutting" tool, and thru using it and progresively finer grades of grinding past, I got the valves to seal---tightly and completely. Then, and only then, the engine ran fine. If you can hear anything leaking, or if, when you come up on compression by hand turning the crankshaft you gradually feel the compression leak away---then its not going to run. These small i.c. engines are not forgiving at all in respect to compression loss. I got lucky on my webster build--It ran "right out of the chute", but the Kerzel drove me nuts. Those valves have to seal PERFECTLY!!!


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Brian. I know now it's not a perfect seal. I am going to try and fix my existing valve by making the angle on the valve and try lapping it in again. I do remember your build....I will look through it again to see how you fixed the valve seating issue.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

If this engine was my first engine build...I would have never gotten into this hobby.

I simply cannot get this engine to run. I added a much steeper chamfer to the valve today...bought valve grinding compound...and "thought" I had fixed the valve seating issue. Air *STILL* leaks by the valve when it's supposed to be compressing. I tried to run it anyway and it just "poofs", mostly out of the exhaust.

I don't want to go out and make another exhaust valve...it took me forever to make the one I have now! I'm only going to make it the same way again...just like the flipping instructions tell me to. I left a sharp knife edge on the valve seat. Chamfered the valve and lapped it in. That didn't work last time why should it work a second?

I am ready to smash this engine with a hammer.


----------



## stevehuckss396

How wide is the valve seat surface? The surface of the seat that contacts the valve should be .010 - .015 wide. Is it wider than that?

Dont use normal lapping compound. It is too course and will do more damage than good. Try to find some lapping compound with about 400 grit.


----------



## Philjoe5

Chris,
I started this hobby trying to make a Stirling engine. Build #1 - a failure, #2 - a failure. Got plans for a larger one, build #3 - a failure, build #4 - a failure, build #5 - not a complete failure, but a really poor runner. This represented a year of effort. I desperately needed a success. So I switched gears, and built a fairly simple steam engine. I liked the basic design of that engine so I spent the next year making all kinds of variations of it. 

Meanwhile I'd glance over at the Stirlings gathering dust thinking I'd have another go at trying to get them to run. At this point I've found much more interesting things in steam engine design and doubt I'll ever go back to the Stirlings. Do I feel like a quitter? No, I'm just having one heck of a lot more fun that I did in that first year. But I learned a lot from trying the Stirlings and there's no doubt they gave me some valuable experience.

My advice - given your present level of frustration, put this engine aside. Start another project. Anything that will likely lead to success. You can always come back to the Ford engine. When taking a hammer to your handwork seems like a solution, it's time to consider other options.

Just rambling on a subject I'm familiar with - FRUSTRATION

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## vascon2196

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> How wide is the valve seat surface? The surface of the seat that contacts the valve should be .010 - .015 wide. Is it wider than that?
> 
> Dont use normal lapping compound. It is too course and will do more damage than good. Try to find some lapping compound with about 400 grit.



I'm not sure how wide the surface is. I will check this weekend. Is wider better? I bought regular compound but can buy some 400 grit from McMaster or something. I will try that.

Thanks,

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Philjoe5  said:
			
		

> Chris,
> I started this hobby trying to make a Stirling engine. Build #1 - a failure, #2 - a failure. Got plans for a larger one, build #3 - a failure, build #4 - a failure, build #5 - not a complete failure, but a really poor runner. This represented a year of effort. I desperately needed a success. So I switched gears, and built a fairly simple steam engine. I liked the basic design of that engine so I spent the next year making all kinds of variations of it.
> 
> Meanwhile I'd glance over at the Stirlings gathering dust thinking I'd have another go at trying to get them to run. At this point I've found much more interesting things in steam engine design and doubt I'll ever go back to the Stirlings. Do I feel like a quitter? No, I'm just having one heck of a lot more fun that I did in that first year. But I learned a lot from trying the Stirlings and there's no doubt they gave me some valuable experience.
> 
> My advice - given your present level of frustration, put this engine aside. Start another project. Anything that will likely lead to success. You can always come back to the Ford engine. When taking a hammer to your handwork seems like a solution, it's time to consider other options.
> 
> Just rambling on a subject I'm familiar with - FRUSTRATION
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil



Thanks Phil...I do have an Elmer Verburg engine in mind...


----------



## stevehuckss396

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Is wider better?



No, the wider they get the harder it is to get sealed.


----------



## kcmillin

Chris, I was having a heck of a time getting my valves to seal on the Tiny I4. What I ended up doing was re-cutting the valve to 46 degrees, and leaving the valve seat 45 degrees.(This should give you the tiny valve sealing surface .010 or so) Then I mixed up a homebrew batch of valve lapping compound. I started by scraping off some fine powder from a stick of jewlers rouge (regular hardware store stuff), toothpaste (I am not sure which is the best to use) , a dab of grease and a drop of oil. I then spent about ten minutes with each valve, turning and lifting. This is a labor intensive process and probably not the best way, but for the most part it worked for me....... except for that pesky #2 exhaust valve oh: :big:

Kel


Kel


----------



## cfellows

Just a thought, I wonder if using a stronger spring on the exhaust valve might encourage it to seat?

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> No, the wider they get the harder it is to get sealed.



Good to know...I was thinking otherwise. Whew....

I just bought two stop & waste valves and am going to try the whole process again.


----------



## vascon2196

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Chris, I was having a heck of a time getting my valves to seal on the Tiny I4. What I ended up doing was re-cutting the valve to 46 degrees, and leaving the valve seat 45 degrees.(This should give you the tiny valve sealing surface .010 or so) Then I mixed up a homebrew batch of valve lapping compound. I started by scraping off some fine powder from a stick of jewlers rouge (regular hardware store stuff), toothpaste (I am not sure which is the best to use) , a dab of grease and a drop of oil. I then spent about ten minutes with each valve, turning and lifting. This is a labor intensive process and probably not the best way, but for the most part it worked for me....... except for that pesky #2 exhaust valve oh: :big:
> 
> Kel
> 
> 
> Kel



Thank you Kel....I purchased some 400-grit Clover lapping compound. I'm going to take my time this go around.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Just a thought, I wonder if using a stronger spring on the exhaust valve might encourage it to seat?
> 
> Chuck



Chuck,

This is what some of my students have been saying....it's definately the easiest way to go at this point. I'll check the local hardware store this weekend.

Thanks...

Chris


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

The fellows above are all correct as you need a narrower seat, angled seat, and a correct spring.
If it helps, here is what works for me in hopefully a simple explanation.

The valve should be cut at 45 degrees and the seat cut at 46 degrees for a mechanical wedge fit of sorts.







Picture is over simplified but hopefully you can see the idea. The combustion pressure will actually help seal the valve.
The valve becomes self locating in the seat allowing for looser guide clearances. If you have ever had the head off a Briggs and Stratton, the valves are remarkably loose. But it works fine.
The taper allso allows the valves to be self cleaning keeping carbon out of the seat area.
Make sure the top surface where the valve seat will be is truly flat. Using lapping compound is a hold over from the old days where cheap was good and quality wasn't the best. If the valve is made new with proper machining, then lapping has no place in this application. Using VERY SHARP tooling will make parts to work right the first time. My thoughts and practices,others may not agree, just what works for me. This is allso following full size practice, after all, engine manufacturers don't need to lap their valves.






You can carry this further by using three angles, 30 on top, 46 for the seat, and 60 leading into the port. The blue line in the second pictureis the 46 degree seat. You can control the depth of the valve and where the valve contacts the face this way.
Hope this may be of some help.


----------



## vascon2196

Thanks guys...this IS all making a lot more sense now. Having never built an IC engine before I had to go by the plans that I bought. Although the plans got me to the point I'm at now, they were missing some of these fine details.

This is probably an easy question for you to answer but....how do I machine the 46-degree chamfer? I am picturing a C-sink but a 92-degree C-sink? Is the valve body held in a 4-jaw? Is it just by eye?

Please and thank you.

Chris


----------



## t.l.a.r. eng

With small stuff you can mount the valve block/head in the 4-jaw and cut the seat with a compount set on the tool post located at 46 degrees to the seat. Then you can use a SHARP tool and real fine cuts to get an allmost perfect seat.
While the valve block/head is set up this way, I usually drill the guide hole first, then the port, then finish the valve seat last so all stays concentric to the guide. As I mentioned before, guide clearance can be looser than one might expect and it will work fine. Hope this helps.


----------



## Lakc

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> This is probably an easy question for you to answer but....how do I machine the 46-degree chamfer? I am picturing a C-sink but a 92-degree C-sink? Is the valve body held in a 4-jaw? Is it just by eye?



You start with a lathe that can accurately repeat the difference between 45 and 46 degrees.

(crickets chirping in background)

Well, I know better to trust my lathe to that specification  The good news is, its not that critical if the seat is 44.7 degrees and the valve is 46.1, and how inventive do we need to get to measure that anyway?

You can get some drill rod and make a 46 degree C-sink, then bump the cross slide over a degree and make a valve in the same setup. Thats probably the best way to ensure you get nearly a degree difference.

Or, you get a commercial 90 degree C-sink and make the valve 44 degrees. Thats the way I do it, but its problemmatic expecting the 45 mark on my lathe is that accurate. 

Either way, the lapping at these scales will probably even them both out somewhere in the middle. It may even be preferrential to go 2-3 degrees difference at our scales to narrow the final results to an acceptable seat width. The big trick is blueing the surfaces to see what your doing.


----------



## vascon2196

OK!!!

I built a brand new valve (with sharp tools) and built a brand new exhaust valve (with sharp tools). I put the two together and there was a boat load of daylight peeking through. I used some 400-grit lapping compound and proceeded to fix the situation. Same thing was happening, it just would not seat properly. After a few much need curse words and a big fuss I went out for a drive to run some errands.

Something in my brain finally thought about what was happening. When modifying the valve body I used a 5/8" end mill to remove the original valve seat (like the instructional video suggests). This creates a nice straight hole but the area _around_ the hole was uneven. I drove back home, centerd the valve body again, and used a 3/4" end mill to essentially add a spotface...........it sealed perfectly.

I put the engine back together and tested the seal (without fuel) and it was working! It was compressing the air so when the exhaust opened I could hear and feel the air poofing out when it was supposed to. So adding the fuel and giving the wheel a spin, it didn't run. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

It did however turn over once or twice under it's own power...but it did not stay running. My fuel resevoir needs to be fixed to better regulate the gas flow. So after all this I have to go back yet again and modify something. At least now I can say this has to be the problem and it is something I can fix. Boy I have learned a lot with this engine build! And I have to say, 95% of all of my success has to do with ALL of the help I have received from ALL of you...thank you.

I will be in touch once it is finally running.

Chris


----------



## ShedBoy

Just read this post from the start. (newbie joining in watch out). Suck, squish,bang, blow it should go. I have bought, found been given alot of motors in my day and this mantra has served me well. If it turned with no scary noises and had compression at the right time, ad fuel and air it should go. This is not always the case. I agree with putting it on the back burner and throw together a simple engine to give yourself a lift. I admire your dedication to thiss thing. A few things that I wondered while reading it was what type of compression ratio does this engine have? I am assuming it would be quite low with the long run to the valves. When I have had trouble with engines not running that should (factory not home made eg car, boat, bike lawnmower etc) I often have used a leak down tester to find the leakage. Another thought would be to try a higher octane fuel. I had a old engine I found at the dump which would not run due to low compression, ended up getting it to run on thinners (don't ask why we tried it, dumbluck). For the record I have only ever taken to one engine with a work boot, foot and multiple applications. Tecumseh vertical shaft lawnmower. Removed said stomped and replaced with a kerbside find B&S now no problem. The stomped engine is in the shed in disgrace. Chin up. Sorry about the rambling.


----------



## cfellows

Further to Shedboy's comments, these Henry Ford engines are notorious for not having a high enough compression ratio. People have stuffed all kinds of stuff in the head space to raise the compression ratio.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

ShedBoy  said:
			
		

> Just read this post from the start. (newbie joining in watch out). Suck, squish,bang, blow it should go. I have bought, found been given alot of motors in my day and this mantra has served me well. If it turned with no scary noises and had compression at the right time, ad fuel and air it should go. This is not always the case. I agree with putting it on the back burner and throw together a simple engine to give yourself a lift. I admire your dedication to thiss thing. A few things that I wondered while reading it was what type of compression ratio does this engine have? I am assuming it would be quite low with the long run to the valves. When I have had trouble with engines not running that should (factory not home made eg car, boat, bike lawnmower etc) I often have used a leak down tester to find the leakage. Another thought would be to try a higher octane fuel. I had a old engine I found at the dump which would not run due to low compression, ended up getting it to run on thinners (don't ask why we tried it, dumbluck). For the record I have only ever taken to one engine with a work boot, foot and multiple applications. Tecumseh vertical shaft lawnmower. Removed said stomped and replaced with a kerbside find B&S now no problem. The stomped engine is in the shed in disgrace. Chin up. Sorry about the rambling.



Shedboy....not sure what the ratio is. Not enough according to a lot of folks who have built the engine.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

ALMOST!!!

I almost had it running last night. I noticed a lot of air passing by the exhaust valve guide set screw. I sealed it with permatex and that helped a lot.

It kicked over very strong but the damn thing would not combust when it came back around. Now I think it's getting the right amount of fuel into the chamber.

I'll try it again tonight. I'm glad I didn't smash it with a hammer now....

Chris


----------



## ShedBoy

Find a leak down tester, you can pressurize it with nothing else going on and pinpoint the leakage. Another way I have used on a motorbike was a fitting adapted to the sparkplug ole about 10psi and some soapy fluid to show bubbles. But it is sounding promising, maybe post a video of the thing and see if it is obvious to anyone else what is wrong, you know new set of eyes and all that. Heavier flywheel to give it more momentum maybe.
Just my 2 cents, sorry 5 is the lowest I can go, worth.

Brock


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Shedboy...I did see some bubbles coming out of the base of the engine? I thought for sure that area was plugged up tight but apparently air found a way...

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

NOTE TO SELF: Never rest your left hand directly on top of the spark plug when you turn the engine over with your right hand...

Unless you are REALLY tired and need to wake up fast.

Chris


----------



## lordedmond

tried that , did not like it ;D


----------



## hopeless

A nice job so far. I'm sure you will get it to run soon  Air leaks are worst on small models and sounds like youre on the way to success :bow: 
This is an engine I would like to try but as the guy has no email or paypal type access it makes it hard for us earthlings on the bottom of the planet ;D.
I would be happy to pay for the book and dvd and postage if someone can help by contacting the owner of the plans that end. I reckon postage for a book and dvd would be reasonable enough not to break the bank ;D.
Anyone willing to help out PM me and we can see what we can get happening
Pete


----------



## stevehuckss396

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> Never rest your left hand directly on top of the spark plug when you turn the engine over



Makes you feel alive doesn't it?


----------



## doc1955

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Makes you feel alive doesn't it?


 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}


----------



## vascon2196

After all these fun and games it STILL will NOT run. I took the entire thing apart, shortened the pipe nipples, filled it with as much lead as I could, and even bought high octane fuel. This POS engine is going to kill me.

Hold on tight for a video coming very soon. Maybe something will jump out at you that I'm not seeing.


----------



## vascon2196

I had to spin the flywheel and hold the camera at the same time so it's a little shaky.

Now I hate this engine.


----------



## ghart3

Some thoughts

Did I hear a buzz coil buzz a fair amount past top center? If using a buzz coil it fires when points first close and not when points open like on a regular ignition.

Seems like either the flywheel is a little light or there is a friction or binding problem or lack of compression.  I like it when flywheel is given a little flip and the piston bounces back when it comes against the compression. What are you using for piston ring?

Built one of these and helped a friend with his build.  A problem is flooding, once it gets flooded they are hard to get cleared out to get a leaner mixture that will fire. 

 What I did was drill a small hole in bottom of elbow at low spot so if raw gasoline is in elbow it will run out and also this will let a little fresh air in to lean mixture a little. Friend built his like the plans and then made another elbow with the hole in bottom of elbow. It runs good with the hole in bottom of elbow and with the other elbow like in the plans, without the hole it, will only run a little with help from a shot of ether.

Keep trying, you will get it.


----------



## vascon2196

This engine has beaten me to a pulp and broken me. I have absolutely no disire to finish this engine ANYMORE. The second exhaust valve I made does not hold air. I have taken this engine apart at least a dozen times and have tried just about everything.

I thought by following the "plans" I purchased and some basic machining I could build this engine.

I am getting in contact with a gentleman in CT who has built this engine multiple times and am giving it to him to finish.

Thank you all for your help with this...

Chris


----------



## bobsymack

Hi. I built one of these engines but not off plans and i also failed to get it to run off oiler but then i changed to vapour carb and I managed to get it to run. If the piston bounces back on compression when you give it a quick turn I would imagine you have enough conpression. I have the ignition just before tdc also if i were you I would take out plug to see if you have a good spark accross the plug contacts because you might have an ignition problem.Hope this might be of some help.  Vince


----------



## Herbiev

Dont give up. Think of the satisfaction u will get when it finally runs


----------



## vascon2196

I have not given up....just super frustrated. I still cannot get it to run. I have the compression for sure with no leaks. I have to have the timing right...I've taken this thing apart 2-dozen times and can't figure out why it's not running. This thing is killing me.

Chris


----------



## bearcar1

Well Chris, if you are positive that you have compression and there are no air leaks and are satisfied that it is adequate enough, and you are positive that the timing is correct and the ignition system is functioning as it should, that only leaves the air/fuel mixture or its delivery system (carburation) as the culprit of not running. Are you using a vapor carb or the standard mixture needle setup? What type of fuel?

BC1
Jim


----------



## vascon2196

Hi Jim,

If I hose the intake with starter fluid it will kick over pretty strong....it just does not stay running when the fuel is added. Yes, I am using the drip oiler system like the plans suggest. I have tried regular and high octane fuel. What is the other fuel system you used? How does it work? 

I'll try anything.

Chris


----------



## bearcar1

The vapor carb I am referring to is of a design by Jan Ridder. I will not guarantee this will cure your not running issue but is offered as an alternative to the sometimes fickle fuel delivery systems that have been incorporated over the years. Check out this website and send him an email requesting his drawings. He will send them to you free of charge, although I sent him a modest donation as I was truly impressed by his engine designs and the amount of time he spent in putting them together. If your engine runs on starting fluid but does not continue under normal circumstances then you are having a fuel delivery problem. I am not familiar enough with what you are working with but do know that others have switched to this vapor carb setup with success.

http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu

Good luck and keep the faith

BC1
Jim


----------



## cfellows

Here is a pretty simple vapor fuel tank that I used on my plumbing parts engine:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6352.0

Look at response #201 and back. The tank is made from a small, pimento jar and some small bits of brass. The air mixture is a piece of brass tubing, split up one side and slipped over another piece of brass with a hole in it. The brass tubing is rotated so the slit uncovers more or less of the hole in the underlying brass piece. If you have the pimento jar, you can put this fuel tank together in under an hour.

Chuck


----------



## Lakc

A) Try and meter a small amount of propane in place of the fuel.

B) Starting fluid.


----------



## vascon2196

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> The vapor carb I am referring to is of a design by Jan Ridder. I will not guarantee this will cure your not running issue but is offered as an alternative to the sometimes fickle fuel delivery systems that have been incorporated over the years. Check out this website and send him an email requesting his drawings. He will send them to you free of charge, although I sent him a modest donation as I was truly impressed by his engine designs and the amount of time he spent in putting them together. If your engine runs on starting fluid but does not continue under normal circumstances then you are having a fuel delivery problem. I am not familiar enough with what you are working with but do know that others have switched to this vapor carb setup with success.
> 
> http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu
> 
> Good luck and keep the faith
> 
> BC1
> Jim


Thank you Jim...I will check it out tomorrow.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Here is a pretty simple vapor fuel tank that I used on my plumbing parts engine:
> 
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6352.0
> 
> Look at response #201 and back. The tank is made from a small, pimento jar and some small bits of brass. The air mixture is a piece of brass tubing, split up one side and slipped over another piece of brass with a hole in it. The brass tubing is rotated so the slit uncovers more or less of the hole in the underlying brass piece. If you have the pimento jar, you can put this fuel tank together in under an hour.
> 
> Chuck


Thank you Chuck...I will look at this tomorrow.
Chris


----------



## vascon2196

OK folks....I almost wet my pants yesterday. I remembered there were (2) layers of screen mesh I installed per the instructions. I wondered if taking one screen out would make a difference....I had tried everything else. I went out to my shop, took one screen out and gave it a whirl. It kicks over once or twice but stronger than it ever has. I started messing around with the timing and exhaust but it still won't run on it's own. It's getting better each time I mess with it.

I still want to smash it with a hammer...but I probably won't.

Chris


----------



## bearcar1

Just a thought going in that same direction, what if you were to use a piece of screening that is not as fine as what you have in there now. That is assuming what is currently in use is of a fine 'weave'. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## stevehuckss396

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> It's getting better each time I mess with it.



Then keep messing with it. Try removing the other piece of mesh and see if it gets better.


----------



## vascon2196

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Just a thought going in that same direction, what if you were to use a piece of screening that is not as fine as what you have in there now. That is assuming what is currently in use is of a fine 'weave'.
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Jim,

It is a fine screen mesh...the one that came with the plans. I tried running the engine with both screens out but same results. I noticed some air leaking back out of the intake? There is a flap that is held shut by a small conical spring. I'm going to try a slightly stronger spring to see if that helps.


Chris


----------



## vascon2196

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Then keep messing with it. Try removing the other piece of mesh and see if it gets better.



Thanks...I did try that but it did not get any better. I will continue to try more later on this evening. I'm also going to try using an O-ring instead of the piston ring like Chuck had suggested.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

The o-ring was too tight. I would have to modify the piston to make it work and I don't want to do that. The engine will putt around a few times on gas but eventually stops. I don't know what else to stuff into the combustion chamber...

Chris


----------



## stevehuckss396

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> The o-ring was too tight. I would have to modify the piston to make it work and I don't want to do that. The engine will putt around a few times on gas but eventually stops. I don't know what else to stuff into the combustion chamber...
> 
> Chris



I'm going to take some heat for this one but try to put some RC nitro into the fuel. Not a whole lot, maybe 5%. Might give you a bit more kick when it does fire and maintain some momentum


----------



## bobsymack

Hi Chris when I built my engine first I had no piston ring in it and it too would only barely run but i decided to machine the piston and put a viton o ring on it and I could not believe the difference when it fired up on first turn of engine. If you use some two stroke oil in the petrol it helps to lube the bore as the the o ring tends to clean off the lube oil . Dont give up because you will solve the problem .
Vince


----------



## Lakc

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> I'm going to take some heat for this one but try to put some RC nitro into the fuel. Not a whole lot, maybe 5%. Might give you a bit more kick when it does fire and maintain some momentum


Thats sorta the same tack I was on with the starting fluid suggestion. Nitro is a wonderful thing. ;D


----------



## vascon2196

All great suggestions...I do want to try an o-ring with the piston and maybe a little bit more lead. Of course finish it off with some of that Nitro fuel that I've never heard of.

Thanks again...

Chris


----------



## stevehuckss396

vascon2196  said:
			
		

> All great suggestions...I do want to try an o-ring with the piston and maybe a little bit more lead. Of course finish it off with some of that Nitro fuel that I've never heard of.
> 
> Thanks again...
> 
> Chris



One bottle will last you a life time. 

http://www.bizrate.com/robotic-radio-control-toys/1561750424.html


----------



## kcmillin

Can I ask why not use the Nitro Fuel Straight up? I have thought about using it on my TI4, but have not tried it yet.

Kel


----------



## stevehuckss396

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Can I ask why not use the Nitro Fuel Straight up? I have thought about using it on my TI4, but have not tried it yet.
> 
> Kel



Well..... It is 35% nitromethane and the rest is ethanol. More power equals more heat and stress on parts. These little works of art just aren't built to be pounded like that. A very small percentage might make a slight difference and help out but 100% could put you in the damage range.


----------



## kcmillin

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Well..... It is 35% nitromethane and the rest is ethanol. More power equals more heat and stress on parts. These little works of art just aren't built to be pounded like that. A very small percentage might make a slight difference and help out but 100% could put you in the damage range.



So it would be perfect for finding weak links :big: :big:, no, but really, that is good to know.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Nitro is not specifically a very good fuel. It's claim to fame is it releases free oxygen when it burns, allowing you to effectively increase the size of your engine.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I use Naptha gas (Coleman lantern fuel) AKA "white gas" for my engines. It ignites easily, and it doesn't stink the way automotive gasoline does. I would say, if your engine is as close to running as you say it is that you should build another piston with the proper sized groove for a Viton o-ring. A piston takes all of 25 minutes to make, viton o-rings can be had for 50 cents, and in a worst case scenario, you can always put the old piston back in the engine. Mucking about with exotic fuels and Nitromethane is just a good way to have an explosion or fire on your hands. I used to run a rail dragster back in the 1960's, and I've had my fun with Nitromethane---Damned dangerous stuff!!!


----------



## vascon2196

Okay...took some time off before I bashed the engine with a hammer. Going to give it yet another whirl this weekend.

Chris


----------



## Lakc

I was just at the Henry Ford museum this weekend, didnt see the origional, but will make it a point the next time I go back.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Lakc  said:
			
		

> I was just at the Henry Ford museum this weekend, didnt see the origional, but will make it a point the next time I go back.



I was there a few months ago. Where is it?


----------



## Lakc

Im trying to remember, I did see it a year or two ago but cant recall what part of the museum it was in. That was before I knew people were interested in building it. It may get rotated in and out, I am not sure.

Grandson had such a great time at NAMES, and at HF this past weekend, Im thinking of springing for the family plan.


----------



## vascon2196

Bought a new heavier flywheel ($85), machined the new flywheel (3-hours), installed the new flywheel (1-hour), and still cannot get the F*@%^&*! engine to run (priceless)

Chris


----------



## Lakc

Having an extra flywheel is not a bad thing. I am sure you will have a use for it in the future. For now, however, lets get this one running. 

Three things involved in getting an engine to run.

Fuel
Spark
Compression

Fuel just has to be close, spark a reasonable amount just before tdc, compression is usually the killer for home model engines.

But lets start with fuel. One extremely easy way to check is metering propane with an unlit torch. Vaporized propane wont stick to the manifold wall, drop out around bends, or foul out spark plugs. 

So shoot a little propane down the intake and tell us if you hear a pop, if not, try a lot of propane. Whatever you hear or not will determine the next step.


----------



## vascon2196

Lakc  said:
			
		

> Having an extra flywheel is not a bad thing. I am sure you will have a use for it in the future. For now, however, lets get this one running.
> 
> Three things involved in getting an engine to run.
> 
> Fuel
> Spark
> Compression
> 
> Fuel just has to be close, spark a reasonable amount just before tdc, compression is usually the killer for home model engines.
> 
> But lets start with fuel. One extremely easy way to check is metering propane with an unlit torch. Vaporized propane wont stick to the manifold wall, drop out around bends, or foul out spark plugs.
> 
> So shoot a little propane down the intake and tell us if you hear a pop, if not, try a lot of propane. Whatever you hear or not will determine the next step.



Jeff...that sounds like something I can try. I will give it a whirl later tonight.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Other than trying the propane idea that Jeff has suggested, I think it's almost going to run longer than 5-seconds. I took the ENTIRE engine off it's original base and built a new sawhorse type base which is much stronger. The new base is also at waist height so it is easier to work on!

I also replaced the timing brass strip to a thinner copper strip and adjusted everything again.

Also, I added an O-ring in addition to a piston ring which adds a bit more compression.

AND, I loosened all of the mounting screws that hold down the cylinder to reduce some of the binding.

Can you believe the damn thing actually ran better that it ever has! It ran for about 10 to 15 seconds before it fell on it's face.

*This means it might be ready for the Yankee Steam-Up in Rhode Island on October 1st!!!*

Chris


----------



## cfellows

Kind of makes you appreciate today's car engines which start easy and just keep on runnin'.

Chuck


----------



## vascon2196

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kTT5hi7Ibuk?hl=en&fs=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here it is..............FINALLY.

Just some fine tuning to do and it's finally running!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you to everyone who helped me out with this...and I think it has been everyone.

Chris


----------



## kcmillin

Well Done Chris!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!

It is sounding great, I am amazed at how slow it was turning over.

A wise man one said "Perseverance is Everything" and you have just proved that.

Kel


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Vascon---Congratulations. You have had a long and painfull trial with that engine. Have you figured out exactly what it was that prevented the engine from running previously??---Brian


----------



## stevehuckss396

I knew you would figger it out! Keep at it and it will keep getting better.


----------



## cfellows

Chris, I'm really glad you got it running. I know these little engines can be a real pain in the @$&/. But, like your children, you love them anyway! Congratulations, keep at it, it makes success just that much sweeter!

Chuck


----------



## jhovel

Well done! 
I just read the entire thread - only just found it.
I've been collecting the parts for a while to build one with my grandson.
Does anyone have a few basic dimensions for me to go by/scale from?
I know there are full plans - but not exactly cheap.... :
Cheers,
Joe


----------



## Lakc

Way to go! Perseverance is the key. If they were not so maddening, they wouldnt be as interesting. :big:


----------



## ozzie46

Chris, your perseverance in this journey is inspiring. Many others would have blown it up a long time ago. Me included. It just goes to show that if you keep at it you can prevail. :bow: :bow:

 Ron


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Kel, Brian, Steve, Chuck, Joe, Jeff, and Ron. When it first ran I did not have the camera...it ran REALLY good and even appeared to be gaining speed? There was a moment after that when it fired backwars and turned in reverse, smashing into the copper contact. I just have to bend it back and adjust it again.

All in all I am VERY glad I did not smash the engine with a hammer. I know that at time during this post it seemed as though I was going to smash it with a hammer but I simply had enough. I cannot thank everyone enough who kept giving me positive feedback and encouraging me to keep going. At 33 years of age...I have a LOT of growing up to do which should come with a bit more patience (I hope).

Once I get the engine cleaned up and running better more videos and pictures to come.

Thanks again!

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Vascon---Congratulations. You have had a long and painfull trial with that engine. Have you figured out exactly what it was that prevented the engine from running previously??---Brian



Thank you Brian! Just about everthing I originally machined for this engine had to be either re-made or tweaked. For starters when I remounted the engine on its new base I noticed my alignment was WAY off in both directions. I machined a 1/4" spacer to raise the crank assembly up and put spacers under the BACK side of the cylinder. My original cylinder was bent upward slightly so I had to straigten it out with washers. I added an o-ring in addition to a piston ring which helped compression. I think the major issue I was having and what really "fixed" the engine was when I soldered all of the electrical connectors. I also replaced the timing contact which was a thick piece of brass with a much thinner piece of copper and sanded and cleaned all of the contact points. This and re-adjusting the timing got the engine up and running.

I also had to re-make the gas drip assembly completly. I mean...it was like I had to build the engine from scratch several times. I think my biggest mistake was trying to follow the plans exactly instead of using them as a guide. The lack of patience doesn't help either.

Thanks again Brian!


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Vascom---Knowledge is cumulative. Think of how much more knowledgeable you are now about building IC engines than you were before this project. That might not make up totally for all the frustration you have felt during this build, but you have learned a lot!!!


----------



## vascon2196

Funny you should say that Brian....my Dad told me the same thing.


----------



## steamer

As others have already stated...perserverance is everything!


Congrats Chris!
 :bow: :bow: :bow:



Dave


----------



## vascon2196

steamer  said:
			
		

> As others have already stated...perserverance is everything!
> 
> 
> Congrats Chris!
> :bow: :bow: :bow:
> 
> 
> 
> Dave



Thank you Dave!


----------



## arnoldb

;D Chris, I've been a bit quiet through your last bunch of trials and tribulations - didn't want to add pressure, and besides, I know nowt about IC engines...

 th_wav WELL DONE :bow: :bow: - Great job; I just knew you'd not give up and get it sorted Thm: - GREAT GOING! :bow: :bow:

Kind regards, Arnold


----------



## vascon2196

arnoldb  said:
			
		

> ;D Chris, I've been a bit quiet through your last bunch of trials and tribulations - didn't want to add pressure, and besides, I know nowt about IC engines...
> 
> th_wav WELL DONE :bow: :bow: - Great job; I just knew you'd not give up and get it sorted Thm: - GREAT GOING! :bow: :bow:
> 
> Kind regards, Arnold



Thank you Arnold!


----------



## metalmad

well done chris
its alive :bow:
Pete


----------



## ewok

well that is very KOOL , what is the stroke on that it looks HUGE! 
well done maybe have to built on of these one day


----------



## danstir

Great job! And congratulations on sticking with it till you got it working.


----------



## vascon2196

ewok  said:
			
		

> well that is very KOOL , what is the stroke on that it looks HUGE!
> well done maybe have to built on of these one day



Thanks...it's a 2-1/2" throw with a 21" connecting rod. Good luck if you decide to build one.

Chris


----------



## vascon2196

So it's been since September 2011 since the last post regarding my Henry Ford Engine....well I went and built another one over the past few months. I decided to build a better looking (and hopefully better running) engine.

These pictures do not represent the painted flywheel but those are on the way.


----------



## Lakc

Looking good!
Now weld two junk bicycles together, install engine, and make fords quadracycle


----------



## Lakc

Never mind I see your a step ahead of me.


----------



## Mitchg07261995

where can i find the plans for this engine?


----------



## Tin Falcon

Look here for the plan info

http://www.nbutterfield.com/Pages/HenryFordfirstengine.aspx

tin


----------



## cam081

i am just starting to build one i am going to play around with it abit i want to make it look as close to fords engine as i can but i want to water cool it and have it goverened so i dont have to baby it. cam


----------



## Mitchg07261995

thanks Tin


----------



## gabby

It'll never work, as the exhaust Valve is mounted backwards (he he), What a great looking engine, I must get A into G and build one myself.
Cheers.


----------



## Herbiev

Mitchg07261995 said:


> where can i find the plans for this engine?



Leon Ridenour
4610 Sunflower Rd
Knoxville, TN 37909
865-584-9759
He throws in a couple of hard to get parts and is very helpful. Cost around $44


----------



## Herbiev

Mitchg07261995 said:


> where can i find the plans for this engine?



Leon Ridenour
4610 Sunflower Rd
Knoxville, TN 37909
865-584-9759
He throws in a couple of hard to get parts and is very helpful. Cost around $44


----------



## Mitchg07261995

thanks a bunch for that! Ill contact him when I have the $$$


----------



## vascon2196

New Flywheel with some color...


----------



## cam081

hi mate it looks great. cam


----------



## vascon2196

Thanks Cam....finally got to use our new sand blaster.


----------



## gabby

Woo Hoo, now don't that look sexy, Dammit I gotta build one!


----------



## atwatterkent

I found a flywheel that very closely matches the original ford engine. It came mounted on an 1800's post mounted Buffalo Foundry Co drill press. I just received a set of plans and found the flywheel at the Portland Ind swap meet last week. I ordered an extra piston ring to help with compression. Construction starts shortly. The same 5 spokes as the original, 13" dia and 16 1/4 lbs. I went to the Ford museum last week and found the engine in Greenfield Village in Fords original garage workshop on the workbench. I took several photos to help me.


----------



## vascon2196

Great find!

It must be nice to be close to the museum...someday I will go there.

Have fun with this build.


----------



## atwatterkent

Close? I'm 250 miles away but I attend the NAMES show every year and had another reason for visiting the museum which is only about 5 miles from there. Photographing this engine was a convenient afterthought as I only decided to pursue this build after seeing two of them at the show and talking to the builders. Anyway, I was asked to publish the photos. Another difference you will notice in the photos is that Ford used a 1/2" sq bar for the piston connecting rod. I met and talked to Mr Ridenour, who has built about 50 of these engines, in Portland Indiana an the Tri-city gas engine swap meet last week.


----------



## hilij

atwatterkent thank you very much for the photos of the Henry ford engine it is the first time that I have seen them. I live in Malta thousands of miles away so I have no chance of ever seeing the original engine!! I bought plans for building the engine from Leon Ridenour and I am nearly finished, but seeing your photos I think I have to redesign my engine as I want it to be as faithful as possible to the original. In the drawings supplied by Mr Ridenour the con rod is shown to be a pipe whilst the original has a half inch square bar and the crank has a counterweight which the original doesn't have, I will have a chat with Mr Ridenour) Will keep you informed.


----------



## vascon2196

Thank for posting those pictures...great stuff.


----------



## vascon2196

Finally....here are pictures I took today of the completed engine. This is my second Henry Ford engine with some minor modifications to make assembly and repairs easier.




Showing the push rod sub-assembly detached from the base. I put 3 pieces of threaded rod in the base and just place the sub assembly over them and secure with hex nuts.




Here is the sub assembly in place.


----------



## Lakc

Looks real good!


----------



## hilij

Nice engine you got there, I have built the engine myself and just dismantled it as a friend of mine from USA sent me some close up photos of the original engine at the Ford museum and I found out that the original engine had the conrod made from 1/2 square bar and not from a pipe and the crank did not have a counterweight, it did not have notches cut in the cylinder for the conrod to pass. I am trying to make the engine as faithful as possible so I have started making the necessary alterations!!


----------



## jwcnc1911

Very nice!

Does a set of drawings for this engine exist or do you just have to wing it?


----------



## vascon2196

You can purchase a set of drawings from Leon Ridenour. His phone number is 865-584-9759. He is located in Knoxville, TN.


----------



## jwcnc1911

Thank you!  And that's not to far from home... it's always cool to hear of some one like that close to home.


----------



## vascon2196

Your welcome and good luck!


----------



## vascon2196

Here is a video of my second Henry Ford engine. This one looks a lot nicer than my first one. A few more adjustments with the timing and I'll be happy.


----------



## Lawijt

Is it possible to find those plans in metric?


----------



## vascon2196

Not sure if metric plans are available...


----------



## hilij

lawijt all you need is a calculator and multiply all the imperial dimensions by 25.4 ))


----------



## atwatterkent

Or get a digital caliper, set it to a dimension on the drawing and push the "inch/metric" button for the conversion. I use this method frequently as I'm not fluent in metric but have a horizontal mill with metric dials.


----------



## Lawijt

Yes , I know. but the treads are also not the same & nuts , bolts are very hard to find here.
Also taps and dies are very expensive.


----------



## Tin Falcon

No reason you can not substitute metric hardware. 

for a
         #5  3mm
          #6 3.5
          #8  4 mm
         #10 5mm
         1/4 bolt use 6mm
         5/16            8mm
         3/8             10mm
          1/2            12mm 

the difference in some cases is you can thread a us bolt in a metric hole sometimes loose some time tight .  The point being is it is sometimes hard to tell the difference. 


Yes I realize not exact conversions . I have found in model making you often have to adjust plans to what is available. 
make sure you have a tap and matching hardware in hand before drilling.
My first model I obediently drilled and tapped for 10-24 only to find I had to go to 4 hardware stores to find that size. In retrospect 10-32 would have been better.  by all means use what is locally available and you have the tooling for. 
Tin


----------



## hilij

Yes that's right a digital caliper will do the trick I use them constantly) I have a mill with metric dials and two lathes with imperial dials you have to always bare in mind that one millimeter is forty thou or .01 of a millimeter is .004 inches!


----------



## Ca-g

hilij said:


> Yes that's right a digital caliper will do the trick I use them constantly) I have a mill with metric dials and two lathes with imperial dials you have to always bare in mind that one millimeter is forty thou or .01 of a millimeter is .004 inches!



Mmm...  suspect you might mean .1mm.


----------



## hilij

Yes you are right .1mm I made a typing mistake sorry for any inconvenience)


----------



## hilij

atwatterkent do you have more photos of the ford engine especially the conrod big end as I have started rebuilding my engine as I said I am doing it as faithful as possible no allan bolts and no fancy wood base!!!!


----------



## Philjoe5

Nice work Chris and a great video.  When I last saw you at the Charles River Museum in early 2011 you were having fits with engine #1.  :wall:

Looks like you got through all the tough spots (2x!)

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## vascon2196

Thank you Phil....yes I remember.

I do have a bit of a temper and have little patience when things do not work as intended. Not a good trait to have with this hobby I guess but I am working on it. The trouble I had with this engine taught me a ton of things I would have never learned if it ran properly...my second engine build taught me even more.

I just ran the engine again an hour ago...still very satisfying.


----------



## Philjoe5

> The trouble I had with this engine taught me a ton of things



When you read about famous inventors, scientists, engineers (I just read iWoz) they all went through these periods of failure, frustration etc.  But like you, they didn't quit.  You've learned something valuable to pass on to your studentsThm:

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## vascon2196

I never expected to back back in this thread but here goes.

My Ford plumbing engine runs o.k. but has always had carb issues which prevents it from running long periods of time. I finally decided to switch over to a vapor carb and so far great success. I watched a couple YouTube videos and a few articles from HMEM and came up with a very simple solution.

I used a 3/8 to 1/8 connection, a 1/4 fuel line hose, a larger hose, a slotted pin, and 2 rubber grommets.

I can adjust the rubber grommets by hand to slide along the slotted pin. I can also adjust the tubes on each end for greater adjustment. Just a basic way to control air into the combustion chamber. I also have air adjustment in the gas tank (drip oiler). I place the cap of an old oil can that acts as an air restrict-or to help agitate the gas.

The engine ran over 5 minutes without stopping...longest run ever.


----------



## el gringo

looks like a god idea Chris but I like to watch the drip drip drip drip drip of the original design so I can change the drip drip drip drip rate to accomadate the changes of the engine temperature etc. I wonder If H Ford fiddled with it as well. 



P1030900.jpg


----------



## vascon2196

I love the beer can and the color!!!


----------



## el gringo

The flywheel color is Ford Blue engine enamel. The beer can is filled with steel wool and has several 1/8" holes in the bottom. Hell of a muffler... 
Ray


----------



## atwatterkent

I went to the Ford Museum in Flint Mich in 2013 and took pics of the original engine. It's sitting on a work bench in a small brick garage in Greenfield Village in the Ford Museum complex. It wasn't close enough to take good pics but hear they are. The one thing I noticed that is different on the prints from Leon are the number of teeth on the gears Ford used. I tried counting them on the photos and think they are closer to 50 and 100. Also, the flywheel Ford used has five spokes. I found one on an old barn post drill last year.


----------

