# Selection of a milling machine



## shlomo (Sep 5, 2011)

Hi All,
I decided its time to buy a milling machine and start working. After reading dozens of articles, blogs, recommendations and even some more ... I reached a conclusion that i have too much information and to many options to choose from. At present I am trying to discern between the following options baring in mind that I require 240V to operate:

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Mill-Drill-Machines

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catal...l-Super-X2-Plus-Mill/Model-Super-X2-Plus-Mill

http://titanmachinery.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=216&Itemid=492

http://titanmachinery.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=425

http://titanmachinery.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=208&Itemid=426 (larger, weighs 140KG)

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M150

http://thehobbyistmachineshop.com/shop23-3.html (very expensive)

Note that some of the prices are in British pounds while others are in Austrian dollar. 

Has anyone had any experience with these? I know some of them are based on the Sieg machines but i have no experience with them either.  

In addition, I did consider the excellent Sherline mill however i decided it might be too small for future use. 

Any info would be highly appreciated- i have a small space so something weighing 200Kg would be an overkill. 

Shlomo.


----------



## John Rudd (Sep 5, 2011)

I have the X2 clone as a Chester Mini mill offering and have changed to a belt drive .....Smashed the gears after attempting to fly cut.....Something to consider?
The belt drive conversion increased the spindle speed and made the machine a little more versatile..( for smaller cutters)

I also have another mill from Chester that resembles your first link, the HF32....much beefier than the X2 but has slower spindle speeds...

Bearing these two in mind, you need to consider:

How much are you willing to spend?

What are you going to do with these machines?

With the HF model you will need a crane to lift in place...Trust me I know weight is in excess of 200kg!!!

Choice is your friend.....


----------



## Tin Falcon (Sep 5, 2011)

The humble seig x-2 and variants is more or less the mainstay of the hobby at 68 kilos it is more or less portable or movable by one person it will break down for transport if needed. the super X-2 is an improved model stronger motor belt drive etc it corrects many of the shortcomings of the x-2. The x-3 is a more capable machine twice the price more than twice the weight (190 kilos) so you will need help mechanical or otherwise to get it in the shop and move it when and if you need to. 
My one and only mill is an x-2 that I have modified some belt drive and CNC. I know of more than one to start with an x-2 then buy an x-3. Round column mills need a bit more attention when raising and lowering the column as the head twists and you need to re align it. 
Your decision based on budget
Available space
project size 
 Tin


----------



## narrowgauger (Sep 5, 2011)

all round choice would be the Sieg SX2 on the basis that it is a very competent machine, belt drive with a brushless DC motor, all at an affodable price.

Little Machie hop has (in my view) the best deal with the longer table in a nice loking package. If the machine has to go to a location outside the US you will need an intermediary to take delivery and on-ship since Chris does not like to export ship machines.

we have 2 SX2's in use for production work and find that they represent very good, reliable service.

also keep in mind that your costs for ancillaries will effectively double the initial cost of the machine.

have fun
Bernard


----------



## HS93 (Sep 5, 2011)

have a look at this mill a little more expensive but a lot more of a mill look at the way the jibs have been made , yes the bed is a little shorter than the new X2 that is avalable from some out-lets but it is far better as there is very little play, and you get steel gears and a lot of extras i have had both the new X2 and this and I still have the WM14.



http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/31-wm-14-variable-speed-milling-machine.html

Peter

By the way are you AUS or uk it would make it a easeyer as if you are in AUS or USA postage of such a UK item would be very high


----------



## shlomo (Sep 6, 2011)

Thanks for the info - The Warco is indeed more expensive, being a complete novice I cant really tell if its worth the extra expense. 

I cant even understand why this: http://www.quantum-machines.com/products/drilling-milling-machine/index.html costs 900 Euro. 

I am willing to make the investment if it can be justified, however I have no means for justification.

Thanks,


----------



## HS93 (Sep 6, 2011)

If you look at the build of the mill you will see why it is more expensive and worth every penny for a start it is on taper jibs, has a standard rev counter and as some of the new x2 are based on the old X1 X and Y table it has there problems in that it is difficult to get rid of play you are paying extra to not have that problem as far as I am concerned , I would go with the WM14 every day after having both it and the new X2 in my posethion.

Peter


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 7, 2011)

Rigidity counts for a lot on machine tools so always get something a little bit bigger than you _think_ you need, provided you can afford/have the room for it!

I spent around twice as much as I wanted to and have never regretted it.

Vic.


----------



## picclock (Sep 7, 2011)

I too have a WM14, and for a small mill it seems one of the better ones. The spindle bearings are taper roller and the accuracy of the table/spindle/column etc is very good. Variable speed motor makes setting speeds a snip, with two gear choices available. 

Best (essential) mod was to fit DRO's on X&Y axis. DRO fitted as std on Z axis - a real boon.

The downsides to this mill are relatively low power leading to smaller cut depths, especially in steel, and limited table movement, making it difficult to machine larger pieces, say over 9" in length. Take note of the safety info I posted in the safety section of this forum about the mains lead becoming trapped when tilting the head. 

After considering the options as you are doing now, I would not change my mind. More room and more cash might have persuaded me to go for a larger mill (possibly the WM20) had I realised the size limitation. Was it worth the extra cash? Yes - the extra quality of build is worth every penny. 

Best Regards

picclock


----------



## shlomo (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks for the very informative reply.

Would you say the same about their Lathes? 

If I need both should I buy it from them? again, notice space /weight limit nothing more than 100GK for each, 

Thanks,


----------



## ileed (Sep 7, 2011)

If cost is not a real issue, but you are interest in the design of the machine, a Wabeco is an excellent mill. I have had one for 10 years, and have had no issues.

http://www.emcomachinetools.co.uk/P...ighSpeedMillingMachine/tabid/210/Default.aspx


----------



## shlomo (Sep 7, 2011)

Are you serious??? 
£5,760.00 for a milling machine ... OMG


----------



## MachineTom (Sep 7, 2011)

I understand that many of us have limited budgets, space, time. Without knowing the market in AU, could you not find a used Bridgeport or clone, space would be the largest concern, but these mills fit great in a corner. There is wear on any used machine, but the time I see spent in reworking some of these new mini mills to work well, is more than I've spent in 7 years on my 37 year old BP.

Things I like about BP size machines: 5" quill travel, 16" knee, 20" X 12"Y, 3 speed downfeed, great for boring, and drilling, Swing a 5 cutter 3" face mill in 4140, backgear for turning large diameter slotters in any material, power tapping, boring. 

If you have garage type access, then you could do a BP size machine, if your in the basement it is likely to tough to move it in.


----------



## shlomo (Sep 7, 2011)

shlomo  said:
			
		

> Thanks for the very informative reply.
> 
> Would you say the same about their Lathes?
> 
> ...



Which of the accessories listed here would you order assuming no more than 300 pounds for the accessories?

http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/31-wm-14-variable-speed-milling-machine.html

And I sent them an email about shipping and handling to Israel to see if its not too expensive.


----------



## pete (Sep 7, 2011)

Shlomo,
Warco is a great company to deal with but shipping from the U.K. to your country is going to be costly. It might be well worth your time to spend a few hours checking with some of the tool dealers in your country to see if they carry or can get that mill. I really would be surprised if one of them didn't or couldn't. I'd also agree that the Warco mill is miles ahead of a X2 type mill. I've owned both. Well at least the head unit for the Warco style mill as it's bolted to the rear of my lathe. The extra cost is well worth it.

One point not mentioned yet is a mills spindle taper. Some of those Warco mills can be had with a Morse or R-8 taper. There's an important difference between those two tapers. One is designed to be self holding (Morse) while the R-8 is classified as a self releasing taper. All that means is it's the designed steepness of the spindles internal taper. So why would you want something else than the Morse taper? R-8 releases with a light tap on the end of the drawbar. Morse requires a fairly heavy hit. That does nothing for the life span of your spindle bearings. I've owned both and there's no comparison and ease of use between the two. I'd personally never buy another mill with a Morse taper again. How comman the R-8 taper is in your country is an issue, But I'm sure there's tool dealers in your country that have web sites, So a check with a few of them would tell you just how comman it is in your location. In North America if it isn't built in R-8 then you probably don't need it.

Buying your tooling accessories right away? I can certainly understand wanting to get a brand new mill operational as soon as possible, But buying your tooling to fit your available money right now could be a mistake. I bought a Kurt type 4" dirt cheap Chinese built milling vice. It was so poorly made and inaccurate I ended up replacing it with a far better vice. If your milling vice is inaccurate then all parts machined with it will replicate the vices inaccuracy's without shimming each part. Buying on price alone can be a huge mistake. Some of the cheaper tooling can be quite good. The cheaper boring heads are usually pretty good for an example.

For needed tooling? Besides a collet set or collet chuck and ER collets to fit your mills spindle taper, A hold down set to fit your tables tee slots, A decent vice, And a good drill chuck and arbour, You'll need to buy a magnetic base and a .001 reading dial indicator. Some of the cheaper ones are quite good but again don't compare with Mitutoyo or Starrett brands. With most of the magnetic bases you can separate the base from the vertical shaft and use this Assembly with the vertical shaft locked into a collet in the mills spindle to tram your new mill. ALL new mills require tramming. Use the search function here for a detailed explanation of mill tramming. You'll also need that magnetic base and dial indicator to properly align your milling vice with the tables travel. You'll use that tool a lot so buying fairly good quality is a good investment.

Buying cutting tools at the lowest possible price is also another mistake. All High Speed Steel and Carbide is NOT created equal. I've tried both and there is a huge difference in tooling life and the quality of the cutting. You certainly don't need to buy the most expensive cutting tools on the market as the mid range priced ones are quite good. Your country produces some very good quality HSS cutting tools and Carbide.

I'd also strongly recommend after you get that new mill to separate the vertical column and head from the X,Y table, Completely pull the table apart for cleaning the sliding surfaces and leadscrews of the grease type preservatives and factory dirt. Then re lubricate with a proper way oil. These mills are not assembled in anything close to clean room conditions and your new mill will operate far smoother and last a lot longer if you do this. It's a pretty simple job but I wouldn't disturb the leadscrew nuts. Just clean them out in place using a spray can of degreaser as they should have been closely aligned at the factory.

Edited to add, Beyond the accessories I've mentioned, A priority should be a 115 pc. fractional, letter, and number set of quality drill bits or it's metric equivelant depending on what system your planning on working in for taps. Again taps and drills are not where you try and buy at the lowest cost. A boreing head with good quality boring bars are a major asset and not an option in my opinion. Without a boreing head you only have half a mill. Depending on your projects then maybe a decent rotary table with dividing plates and maybe a tailstock when you can afford it later on. A decent quality 1" or metric micrometer and since it will be used almost every time your in your shop good quality 6"-8" dial calipers. My digital cheap 6" calipers check out very well against a set of class 2 gage blocks.

I hope some of this helps.

Pete


----------



## picclock (Sep 7, 2011)

I've visited their showroom and checked out the lathes, but most don't have electronic variable speed - a must for me. Quality was very good.

For accessories you will need a set of clamps, a decent milling vice, and I would recommend an ER32 collet holder with collet's. The link gives some info about the collet's, although it will probably be cheaper to source from China via ebay. 

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets-Collet-Chucks/ER32-Collets-Collet-Chucks 

For clamps something like this
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Metric_Clamping_Kits.html

For a vice I use a 4" Vertex one, although its really too big for this mill. lower cost options are available but tend to lift the work more when tightened.
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/VA4-Milling-Vice.html

Low cost fairly decent endmills can be had from Richontools
http://richontools.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15_51&zenid=3ae5a8121cd236617fa4a46d34386548

Good luck with your purchases. This forum is really good if you need help or advice, so don't hesitate to ask, and benefit from the years of experience some of these folks have. 

Best Regards

picclock

Obviously if you can source this stuff locally you should be able to save some cash.


----------



## shlomo (Sep 8, 2011)

Special thanks to all the respondents! 



I got a reply from Chester tools, a UK based company:
"Thank you for your recent enquiry. The shipping charges for the 2 machines will be as follows;
DB7VS Lathe - £559.00. This machine has metal gears.
Champion 16V Lathe - £551.00
*Door to door charges - £623.00*
Quay charges - £19.00
Customs inspection cost - £76.00
Tail lift for offload if required - £50.00" 

That was painful ... well, the shipping cost is higher than the machine itself. And he also told me it does not matter if I order one or both, cost would be the same. 

I found this, shipping to Israel is only around 50 Euro. 
http://www.top-maschinen.de/werkzeu...en/quantum-fraesmaschine-bf16-vario/index.htm

Can anyone take a glimpse?

Thanks,


----------



## pete (Sep 8, 2011)

Shlomo,
Those shipping charges are insane. If? You can get one shipped in for 50 euros then that's a pretty good deal. BUT!!!!! If I were You I'd call Your customs department and explain exactly what your trying to import, where it's coming from, and cost of the machine.. You'd be better off finding out what duties, taxes ect are going to be paid before you order. I've imported most items for my shop from the U.S. You may also need the country of origin (where it was built) for your customs department so they can give you an accurate cost.

Pete


----------



## Omnimill (Sep 8, 2011)

As said, those shipping charges are quite ridiculous. As far as I am aware Quantum have a reputation for being good machines.

Vic.


----------



## pete (Sep 8, 2011)

Vic, Slomo,
I got curious and just spent the last hour on Google looking for a dealer for hobby sized machine tools in Israel somewhat like Grizzly, Hare & Forbes, Chester ect. No luck using multiple search terms other than industrial sized equipment. But I'm sure a search in english wouldn't show much. Probably Israeli would improve the search results. I did find that Hare & Forbes specialise in exporting equipment and that's one more dealer Slomo might try.

Pete


----------



## Blogwitch (Sep 8, 2011)

I bought both my rather large machines from Chester. The machine quality is second to none, but their delivery charges are extortionate.

They wanted 1200 UK pounds to deliver my mill and install it in my shop, after either taking part of the roof off or taking out some wall panels, and I only live 30 miles away from them. I got an independent to pick it up from Chesters and bring it, he got it in thru the door, and charged me, as far as I can remember, 300 pounds.

Methinks Chester didn't want the job, so grossly over quoted.


John


----------

