# boiler explosion. what not to do.



## kcmillin (Jan 23, 2010)

Hey guys, thought I would share a bad experience with you.
   I was making a boiler for use with some small steam engines I had. I used an old propane bottle and some copper tube. I had a pressure guage and steam dome on top with two water tubes made out of copper on the bottom. With a homemade burner I was making steam in no time. NOW, here is the bad part, I used electric solder to peice everything together. I pressure tested it to 140 psi, and held it for a half hour. So I though I was good to steam it to 60 psi. Well I was wrong, It pressured up and with out any warning BOOOOOOM there goes the steam dome and pressure gauge accross the shop and boiliing hot steam went shooting out the top, and there I am standin not but two feet from the thing and did not even get a drop of water. needless to say I have not pressured the boiler up again and am verry apprehensive to ever do it again. I was lucky but i might not be next time.

the morel,
DONT USE ELECTRICLE SOLDER TO MAKE BOILERS

kel


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## Jasonb (Jan 23, 2010)

And fit a safety valve!!!!

Jason


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## GWRdriver (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm glad you had the courage to report this to the forum. More people who are thinking of building a little boiler, and who have no prior experience, need to know about and learn from your experience. My immediate advice would be to take what's left of your boiler (less the pressure gauge) and a big hammer, find the nearest flat rock, and bash it until there is not one single molecule of it left that is recognizable as a boiler. Then come on back here, or to any one of several online live steam resources, and me or someone else will gladly walk you through the basics of how to make yourself a miniature boiler that is safe. It shouldn't be a stretch to bring your boilermaking up to the level of your engine making.

The technicality you stumbled upon is this . . steam at 60psi is around 300degF and after about 175degF the tensile strength curve of soft solder drops off steeply. Once the solder reaches the temperature of 60psi steam there is virtually no tensile strength left in the solder joints at all, and Booom. Now for some finger shaking, which I am compelled to do, . . . there is more miniature steam technology in print and online and more competent resources available free to learning builders than at any time in history so there is no excuse for anyone not being able to find out how to do it right.


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## kcmillin (Jan 23, 2010)

to defend myself, I did not have the internet at the time of the explosion. I was aware of the risks, I even had quite a few succesful 30 psi runs, but i will NEVER throw caution to the wind again.

I have been looking at boilers from this forum and other places on the net and I will most definatly build my next boiler with advice along the way. ;D


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## GWRdriver (Jan 23, 2010)

I'll be glad to help in any way I can.


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## tel (Jan 23, 2010)

As will I, tho' I don't have Harry's level of expertise.


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## Maryak (Jan 23, 2010)

Kel,

Thank you for your post, as Harry said many would not be so open about their blunder. :bow:

I am glad you, (nor anyone else), were not hurt by your experience. 

I have no experience with model boilers but have spent a large portion of my life with 1:1 boilers of many shapes, sizes and types. They all have one thing in common - they demand the utmost respect from their operators and maintainers and are totally unforgiving if one slacks off on maintenance or takes operating short cuts.

Follow your countries boiler/model boiler code to the letter and all will be well. There are several members here who can guide you and help you and are more than willing to do so. 

Best Regards
Bob


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## tmuir (Jan 23, 2010)

Toy steam boilers are soft soldered but by law the safety valve must lift at 1 atmosphere (14.7 psi).

I certainly wouldn't run a commercially made soft soldered boiler over 20PSI and agree when I finally get around to making myself a boiler from scratch it will be silver soldered.

This video has done the rounds a few times before but is worth putting up again.
This is why you need to know what you are doing even with small model boilers.

[youtube=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0R348vGkjy...&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0R348vGkjy...cfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


Thanks for sharing your story


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## kcmillin (Jan 23, 2010)

Oh man, I'me getting flashbacks from that video. 
Do you know what broke exactly. I would like to know where the weekest link of that boiler was? It would seem that the end caps would have the most strain on them, because of the surface area.

Can copper be welded or brazed?


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## GWRdriver (Jan 23, 2010)

Kel,
It can be both welded (tig) and brazed, but for small copper boilers the preferred method is silver solder, which of course is a form of brazing. I'm not a welder but I know of a couple of people who have successfully (so far) tig welding some boiler assemblies, but not a whole boiler. My understanding is that tigging copper requires pre- and post-welding treatment to prevent cracking and warpage. There's more to it than simply putting the wire to it.

PS - IIRC there is now a commercial model boiler maker in the UK whose boilers are now all-welded.


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## Paul_C (Feb 13, 2010)

I've been working around low pressure (15psi) boilers for about 8 years. I was told 15 psi steam was the limit for plumbing solder. At the shop we use Harris #15 silver solder for all repairs. 

I recently completed the PM Research BLR-1. Although many have been built with the "silver solder" that came with the kit I thought it was too soft for the threaded bushings. Since all the other fittings are riveted or swagged I wasn't worried about the solder becoming plastic there. It flowed rather well into the joints. But for the brass threaded bushings I used the Harris silver solder and flux. Learning curve if you want to solder them in that way. Insert a pipe plug finger tight into the bushing before soldering to prevent the threads from rolling over. I hydro tested the vessel to 160 psi, the relief valve is set at 60. I feel safe that some stress on the threaded bushings is not going to pop them out at full pressure.


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## steamboatmodel (Mar 7, 2010)

Anyone who is thinking of building a model boiler should have read and reread Model Boilers & Boilermaking by K. N. Harris.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Majorstrain (Sep 20, 2010)

This is the best I could get to see where it opened up. I don't ever want to see this happen in real life.
Dam lucky.

Elvis is leaving the building!!


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## Bluecat (Sep 24, 2010)

As I'm on the road of building a boiler, I should ask this right now. If I completely rivet a boiler together and solder the seams with soft solder, it should be fine, right?
At the moment I do not have enough heat to properly solder a boiler of such size (3x7,8 inch, if I remember correctly). It's going to be fired with wood or charcoal, whatever I can get for a run.

The bushings could go pop though. Should I invest in another blowtorch and silver solder it or will soft solder do? I'm hoping to go up to 2 bar/29,4 PSI pressure with this boiler.


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## arnoldb (Sep 24, 2010)

Bluecat, Thanks for asking first before doing  

I'd strongly advise you not to make a boiler with soft solder for any of it's joints.

Soft solder weakens very quickly with higher temperature, and the safety of bushings, stays and tube joints will be dubious. I don't know where in the world you are, but there is a good possibility that you have some form of local boiler code. If you do, try and get a hold of it and build your boiler safely.

Rather spend the money, get as big an additional blowtorch as you can, and silver solder the entire boiler. It's more work, and slightly more difficult, but definitely worth the peace of mind.

A good read through the threads in the "Boilers" section is definitely worthwhile, especially FireBird's Build

I'm also in the process of designing a boiler, and will most likely start working on it this weekend. I just had to close my eyes and open my wallet for one of these:




On a previous boiler build I quickly realized I needed a bigger torch - and that boiler was tiny for an O gauge locomotive.

Regards, Arnold


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## Bluecat (Sep 24, 2010)

Thank You, Arnold. Actually I'm not new to the world of boilers and their design, I did build some boilers this summer. However, most of them failed. ;D Soft-soldered, of course. I had one success as well - a steam turbine plant, which runs to this day, although there's a bad leak in the boiler. It runs well though, as it ignores the leak.
I have some questions about building a boiler this big, but I'll put them in a new thread perhaps - I think I'm wandering a bit off topic here.


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## steamboatmodel (Sep 29, 2010)

Bluecat,
Check into a Welding Supply they usually carry Silver Solder. If not its available on line.
Regards,
Gerald.


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## Ken I (Nov 10, 2010)

I long ago learned not to trust "soft" solders for any mechanical duty.

But like most lessons we sometimes choose to forget.

I needed to do some TIG welding but my regulator was elsewhere - I had a spare but no fitting for the bottle - I had one fitting for the bottle but it did not fit the regulator and another that fit the regulator but not the bottle.

So a bit of drilling and turning and I soft soldered the two parts together - I thought 10mm diameter by 10mm long "wetted" area would be sufficient (for 2000 psi ????).

It wasn't.

It worked for a couple of hours and then "BANG" ! - the regulator flew across the shop with alarming force.

No harm done other than jangled nerves - still an'all a stupid thing to do. Potentially very dangerous.

I thought that maybe I had done a bad soldering job, but no the entire area had been wetted and failed.

Lesson - you can't trust soft solders for stressfull duty.


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## Bentwings (Jan 16, 2022)

Oh my gosh!  I don’t remember when I learned about soft solder joints. Some time before machine shop apprentice. I never soft solder anything but electrical wire. I clean very well use proper flux and make the repair. I see the ac guys using soft solder on ac copper tubing  lot.  Even in auto school we could not use soft solder anywhere near ac stuff. It was quality hose with proper fittings. Not even push loc fittings. AN OR HYDRAULIC ONLY.   I’ve seen some model steam boilers built on the internet with soft solder. Some with nice work but time bombs. I got to mak military lithium batteries out of stainless steel laser welded or tig welded. Not nay did these have very high pressures they contained some of the msodt corrosive reactive chemically materials known to man. He’s were flammable under the right conditions to th point of being explosive. The battery cases were hydraulically tested to failure as a rule. For each lot. T was said the battery was as good as the ordinance as far as destructive capability. So I learned to be extremely careful around pressure vessels.

im building a boiler for my new steamer but I’ve already gone through every calculation I could find in my roars boo which has calculations for about any situation known.ere are plenty of helpful math test on the internet. I’ve got pages of notes. Even made some hangers based on knowledge gained here.   Boilers are supposed te tested to 8 times working pressure I think.have a set model that I’ll un to failure just to prove my piece.  I wanted to do a video but that’s just too far down those. I may do some pictures  eventually. This is a completely new hobby for me ss I’m limited in what I can do see and hear.  . We’ll be safe every one. Steam can be very dangerous.
byron


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## abby (Jan 16, 2022)

Bentwings , I think you need to check some of your facts re boiler pressure testing .
Model boilers should pass a  hydraulic test at TWICE the working pressure which should hold steady for 10 minutes.
A steam test should follow at one and a half times the intended maximum working oressure .
Soft solder is quite good enough for low pressure boilers , Mamod have been soft soldering their boilers for at least 50 years.
Dan.


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## Richard Hed (Jan 17, 2022)

abby said:


> Bentwings , I think you need to check some of your facts re boiler pressure testing .
> Model boilers should pass a  hydraulic test at TWICE the working pressure which should hold steady for 10 minutes.
> A steam test should follow at one and a half times the intended maximum working oressure .
> Soft solder is quite good enough for low pressure boilers , Mamod have been soft soldering their boilers for at least 50 years.
> Dan.


Are you sure about the pressure of steam only being tested a 1.5X?  Each state has their own rules.  Where do you live?


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## methuselah1 (Jan 17, 2022)

Like Dan said! But you can bet your boots that the solder is carefully selected- there are many different flavours from the classic 60/40 tinman's solder to the domestic plumbing stuff which is 99% tin, with the remainder of copper - and everything in between.

I watched the video, and it's hardly surprising there was an explosion, firing a boiler like that with a propane/butane torch like that! Toy engines are spirit fired, which is far more gentle. That doesn't mean they are bulletproof; schools in the UK used to have at least one Mamod to allow physics teachers to demonstrate the principles. A few years ago a teacher was killed, and students injured when one blew. Should have checked the safety valve.

Full sized engines, like locos, have a "fusible plug" of lead positioned in the crown of the firebox, so if the water level becomes too low the lead melts, the steam pressure is relieved and the fire is extinguished. needless to say that dropping a plug is a source of unspeakable shame for any driver.

That plug has flames licking around it for the whole rest of the time, and is safe.

But I digress. To summarise, for low pressure boilers, in order of integrity-

Fully soft soldered (with an appropriate solder)

Fully soft soldered, with stays.

Fully soft soldered with rivets.

Fully soft soldered with rivets and stays (we're going over the top now- kinda depends on the size)

All the of the above using silver solder instead. More expensive, but it won't break the bank. The boiler won't blow your b*ll*cks off as easily, which might only happen once, and after which, silver solder would seem to be downright bloody *cheap.*

_-_Andrew UK


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Thanks for additional info I was probably going off what I was previously told .  This eases the requirements some I’m more concerned with leaks due to aluminum dimensional changes when heated.. I would have done more traditional copper but large diameter is jut not available here. Not to note that copper has become extremely expensive. I considered Tig welding but my vision just prevents precision welding I used to do . I’ve added a double seal on both ends as well as tie bar between end caps. There are some attractive aluminum boilers but they are flame heated and I simply cannot have that in my home I have nat gas heat but that’s not an option at all. I doubt I’ll need more than 50 psi but I’ll know more once I test the engine on compressed air. It’s supposed to run on just 20 but by calculation that’s not much torque on the crankshaft even with 4 double acting cyl. I have enough to do now so while I’d like to have some kind of dyno but I’ve got a great variety of driven features in the works. Post pictures when things start to come together . Chip making should start in a couple days . My son and grand son are helping in they shop . It’s really a treat for me to have them both . I just was given a tip about insulation of the boiler as aluminum will bee a terrible emitter of its heat. I had planned on using automotive exhaust wrap which I used on my street rods it’s pretty in expensive and can with stand glowing red heat. .I wondered ashy boiler of old had wood wrapped around them. Since I won’t have open flame I’ll use molded wood . I have almost unlimited supply of various woods plus I’d like a polished stainless wrap for appearance. I’ll monitor operating temps right from the start. I was going to use stainless to Star with but it too has risen in price. I used to do semi tank truck pressure vihicle repair so I had experience welding stainless pressure vessels . Plus I designed some military stainless battery pressure vessels in industry. I still have welding equipment I’m just not able to do the stuff now .  Like “ Dirty Harry movies says” you have to know your limitations .
It’s hard becoming old LOL  

I APPRECIATE ANY COMMENTS.  I’m finding my mistake in not doing electrical engineers in parallel with mech eng. I now have to depend on others compete in this area. I’m always open to new things do I’m adding some ew thoughts to this hobby . I just was directed how to add a ew larger monitor to my laptop. I just happen to have a near ew one so it’s now n he table. Nw I just need to take advantage of I t maybe I can dispense with hunt and peck on this iPhone I see two of each letter so it’s like constant target practice    Well I just heard Amazon so I’ll see what arrived 

byron


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## Richard Hed (Jan 17, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks for additional info I was probably going off what I was previously told .  This eases the requirements some I’m more concerned with leaks due to aluminum dimensional changes when heated.. I would have done more traditional copper but large diameter is jut not available here. Not to note that copper has become extremely expensive. I considered Tig welding but my vision just prevents precision welding I used to do . I’ve added a double seal on both ends as well as tie bar between end caps. There are some attractive aluminum boilers but they are flame heated and I simply cannot have that in my home I have nat gas heat but that’s not an option at all. I doubt I’ll need more than 50 psi but I’ll know more once I test the engine on compressed air. It’s supposed to run on just 20 but by calculation that’s not much torque on the crankshaft even with 4 double acting cyl. I have enough to do now so while I’d like to have some kind of dyno but I’ve got a great variety of driven features in the works. Post pictures when things start to come together . Chip making should start in a couple days . My son and grand son are helping in they shop . It’s really a treat for me to have them both . I just was given a tip about insulation of the boiler as aluminum will bee a terrible emitter of its heat. I had planned on using automotive exhaust wrap which I used on my street rods it’s pretty in expensive and can with stand glowing red heat. .I wondered ashy boiler of old had wood wrapped around them. Since I won’t have open flame I’ll use molded wood . I have almost unlimited supply of various woods plus I’d like a polished stainless wrap for appearance. I’ll monitor operating temps right from the start. I was going to use stainless to Star with but it too has risen in price. I used to do semi tank truck pressure vihicle repair so I had experience welding stainless pressure vessels . Plus I designed some military stainless battery pressure vessels in industry. I still have welding equipment I’m just not able to do the stuff now .  Like “ Dirty Harry movies says” you have to know your limitations .
> It’s hard becoming old LOL
> 
> I APPRECIATE ANY COMMENTS.  I’m finding my mistake in not doing electrical engineers in parallel with mech eng. I now have to depend on others compete in this area. I’m always open to new things do I’m adding some ew thoughts to this hobby . I just was directed how to add a ew larger monitor to my laptop. I just happen to have a near ew one so it’s now n he table. Nw I just need to take advantage of I t maybe I can dispense with hunt and peck on this iPhone I see two of each letter so it’s like constant target practice    Well I just heard Amazon so I’ll see what arrived
> ...


Hey Bent, could you please insert more white space in your comments.  You are giving ME double vision.  Thanx

How many years did you do TIG?  What did you make?


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Hey Bent, could you please insert more white space in your comments.  You are giving ME double vision.  Thanx
> 
> How many years did you do TIG?  What did you make?


 pin taken I’ll use the space and return more. I really made a mess in the last post the spell check does updates even after I’ve already done them so I had to apologize for things that get out of context . I’ve had some retry rough injuries in sports over the years but this one is med and not healable or fixable. It’s frustrating

I tried he dictating thing but that even worse

gotta go . More thinking to do before daily exercise . Thanks again for the tip

byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> pin taken I’ll use the space and return more. I really made a mess in the last post the spell check does updates even after I’ve already done them so I had to apologize for things that get out of context . I’ve had some retry rough injuries in sports over the years but this one is med and not healable or fixable. It’s frustrating
> 
> I tried he dictating thing but that even worse
> 
> ...


 Well as Simone suggested, I looked up boiler specs for the area or state in this case

turns out that by not using fuel or burner
I’m well within  requirements .  This boiler is just too small to fall into inspections. As long as I don’t manufacture them or sell them I’m ok . 
next, if I stay under 300 degF and about 150 psi again not a problem . I don’t have to deal with structure issues as I won’t be modifying my home or garage. There won’t be any flammable materials even in the same room  be it my hobby room or kitchen table.  Even my wattage is far below any concern .   It will have safety valve and peer timer cut off . Boiler level gage needs to be up higher to read actual level  so that about the only change  I need   So electric heat was a wise choice for me  I’m glad I did not choose to weld as technically. It might have had to be inspected. Or provided welt coupon or some kind of certification   Most of the specs deal with commercial or home heating .   So I’m completely out of the loop there all of my planned lumping is well within specifications   I’m glad someone suggested I look this stuff up. Thank you  I’ve started a note book entering my hoop stress numbers bolt and screw numbers fitting and hose specs or where to find them . I had note but spilled a full glass of hot water over them so I’m re constructing them now .  There is a lot of monkey business,  that we take for granted starting a new hobby .. I did a lot of this when I went to giant scale Rc airplanes. My big Zcorsair flew for 13 years with out structural failure even surviving some rough landings . My log book was over 2” thick not counting the  build book .  I’ll ad a section in my current note book for testing things and results   I’m curious to see how the turbines respond to engine exhaust.  There was a note. About a condenser which I’m working on  now . Gathering information on how they work .  That will be a test area as I know little about them. I have my own ideas that seem to vaguely
 Follow what the specs noted . Again this is too small stuff to even get them to listen on the phone . It’s not like I’m contaminating ground water or the area.  
I have to order the 1/4 x 40 ME tap and die . $ 50 for a tiny tap and die it will  probably another $10 for postage 

I also found 1/16” NPT. Pipe tap and die. I’m not even sure I could use these as I may have to make adaptors for 1/8 NPT  to those  too. Once I get the basic boiler parts I’ll decide on fitting size and location

byron


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## Richard Hed (Jan 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Hey Bent, could you please insert more white space in your comments.  You are giving ME double vision.  Thanx





Bentwings said:


> Well as Simone suggested, I looked up boiler specs for the area or state in this case
> 
> turns out that by not using fuel or burner
> I’m well within  requirements .  This boiler is just too small to fall into inspections. As long as I don’t manufacture them or sell them I’m ok .
> ...


Hey Byron, Where's the white space.  White space makes it immensely easier to read.  Thanx


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> Hey Byron, Where's the white space.  White space makes it immensely easier to read.  Thanx


I did space this all out what I thought would be much more open but in reading your post I see all extra spaces have disappeared  thanks sell check  I really did spend a bunch of time opening the message up as you suggested I even reviewed it before I posted.  I’ll try again 
and see if I can get around 
this compression.
 I’ve not noticed this before I’ll also check some other sites I visit to see if it is there 
too.  I’ ll review when 

I go to respond but I just didn’t notice this event  . I’m really sorry.  I seem to have too many words as it Is . I did spread this out seems ok now preview looks ok so far

Byron


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## Richard Hed (Jan 17, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I did space this all out what I thought would be much more open but in reading your post I see all extra spaces have disappeared  thanks sell check  I really did spend a bunch of time opening the message up as you suggested I even reviewed it before I posted.  I’ll try again
> and see if I can get around
> this compression.
> I’ve not noticed this before I’ll also check some other sites I visit to see if it is there
> ...


No need to be sorry.  I just have a difficult time following the lines.


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> No need to be sorry.  I just have a difficult time following the lines.


would it help if I use cap letter instead. I really don’t like to do that some ties I forget to turn them off 

it did it again

byron


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## Richard Hed (Jan 17, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> would it help if I use cap letter instead. I really don’t like to do that some ties I forget to turn them off
> 
> it did it again
> 
> byron


No, that's horrible.  Just try double or triple spacing every three lines or change of subject.


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## Bentwings (Jan 17, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> No, that's horrible.  Just try double or triple spacing every three lines or change of subject.


Ok ,

next wordy ost I’ll at least double. Return each line each line.

byron


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## Richard Hed (Jan 18, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Ok ,
> 
> next wordy ost I’ll at least double. Return each line each line.
> 
> byron


I can't believe you are writing on an iphone.  I have a hard time doing that and I don't have eye trouble.  Don't you have a regular laptop or computer with a keyboard?  Yes, there are two and I believe now, even more, possible monitors for modern computers.


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## Dynamite-ralph (Jan 18, 2022)

Bentwings, Just a comment about staying under 300 degrees and 150 psi,150 psi is at a temperature of 366 degrees.


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## Bentwings (Jan 18, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> I can't believe you are writing on an iphone.  I have a hard time doing that and I don't have eye trouble.  Don't you have a regular laptop or computer with a keyboard?  Yes, there are two and I believe now, even more, possible monitors for modern computers.


Actually as I probably noted I have un correctable double vision . My fingers have long out grown iPhone keyboards even my iPad is hard to use. I use a stylus and hunt and peck try hitting bulls eye every time when you see two I’ve already tried eye patch but that doesn’t work. Face it I’m just messed up I have to I’ve with it  I have tried the gun rang yet but that should be interesting  haha I do have a very nice lap top I also hav a keyboard magnifying glass it’s nice but  I’m so far behind times I just don’t use it much I received it as part of my late sons estate. He was a amer so it’s got all the memory possible and best of processors  the games take up a huge amount of space I’m currently getting rid of them so gradually freeing space there is a nice cad program too but I’ve been away from that too for a long time so I’m just getting back into it. I lived with cad and analysis programs for year in engineering.  I have a huge brand new PCs too but I was just getting it up when my son passed away. I’ve been picking up pieces eve since.  I’ve had to give up all my hobby so I’m back doing steamers I just received notice my new engine kit is to arriv Friday I’m excited  the weather is turning south today so I’ll be it shoveling again . 40-50 mph winds blowing snow misty freezing drizzle .  Now this mess of compressed text . So far I have not found a fix  I’ll have to try and be less wordy I really appreciate y’all’s patience we are going to start making chips this week. I’ll try and take pictures as we go or at least a chain as sssembly progresses.  I have a new plastic assembly board so I can start assembl as soon as the engine arrives .

byron


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## comstock-friend (Jan 18, 2022)

abby said:


> Bentwings , I think you need to check some of your facts re boiler pressure testing .
> Model boilers should pass a  hydraulic test at TWICE the working pressure which should hold steady for 10 minutes.
> A steam test should follow at one and a half times the intended maximum working oressure .
> Soft solder is quite good enough for low pressure boilers , Mamod have been soft soldering their boilers for at least 50 years.
> Dan.



Source for this please, Dan. 

The ASME Code (which our little boilers are generally and thankfully exempt from) cold water pressure test for fired boilers is 1.5 times Maximum Allowable Working Pressure (MAWP). On pressure vessels it is 1.5 times MAWP times ratio of material allowable stress cold divided by material allowable stress at operating temperature. For our boilers hopefully the ratio of allowable stresses is 1. 

The ASME Code safety factor is 4:1. That is if say your steel boiler shell material has an allowable stress of 60,000 psi, you only get credit for 15,000 psi when performing your thickness calculations.

Testing above 1.5 times MAWP can cause permanent yield of some components. Steam testing at 1.5 times MAWP can kill you. 

Under steam, maximum boiler pressure accumulation is no more than 6 percent above the highest pressure at which any valve is set, or no more than 6 percent above MAWP.

For those who want to wade deep in the weeds for safety and relief valves... https://admiralvalve.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Tech-Reference.pdf

John


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## Steamchick (Jan 18, 2022)

Hi John, most interesting! I always had understood that the UK, European and ASME rules always had a FOS of 8.... for the design of Copper boilers for steam....
Anyway, For ASME,  I have followed the guide in Model steam and railroading published some years ago, that is the best "text book" on boiler making COPPER boilers, that I have seen. It uses and explains the ASME regs. Even down to specifying the Test pressures, etc. for hydraulic testing.
I have used it extensively to reverse engineer / check all my boiler designs that I have made, plus old boilers that I have brought back into service. Curiously, there are facets of ASME that I have picked-up from other (professional) sources, that have affected my rating of some of the older designs I have checked.
I'll study your info on Safety valves, as this is a special subject anyway, and I am unsure that all the models I have seen in-steam comply with the regs.
Although I am in the UK, where safety is concerned, the regs are usually common, worldwide. But different countries have different ideas on how much legislation is necessary, so there will always be differences. Though I doubt that boilers will be weaker in one country than another.
Thanks for your info.
K2


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## Steamchick (Jan 18, 2022)

kcmillin said:


> to defend myself, I did not have the internet at the time of the explosion. I was aware of the risks, I even had quite a few succesful 30 psi runs, but i will NEVER throw caution to the wind again.
> 
> I have been looking at boilers from this forum and other places on the net and I will most definatly build my next boiler with advice along the way. ;D


I'll be glad to advise - when you need it. Just for information, ASME recognise that Copper loses strength dramatically with temperature, similarly silver solder, so even using those materials we are limited to 100psi SAFELY. That is just good Engineering, not "big-brother", because there are real physical limits with the materials we use.
ASME prohibits riveted boilers, and prohibits soft soldered boilers, because there are too many accidents (like yours) in the history books. 
To the regulators, one bad accident is more important to eliminate than a million successful operations.
Enjoy the hobby! (But Safely!).
K2


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## Richard Hed (Jan 18, 2022)

As for myself, I don't care a twit about "awwwthenticity", I would never build a copper boiler AND I would never build a fire tube boiler, as WATER TUBE boilers are FAR safer but not necessarily easier to build.  TIG welders are relatively cheap these days and thast is the best way to proceed.  I bought a TIG machine that has been sitting for 3 weeks, untested, unplayed with.  It is too cold to work outside with snow and winds but I have some projects to do and can hardly wait for it to warm up enough to proceed.

I have a small rocket stove I built but not quite finished that I need to work on but, as I said the cold is too much for me.  To use the rocket stove properly, I need some fire bricks which I simply cannot afford right now.  I need firebricks for foundry project too.

A few years ago, I built an outdoor stove/heater as a test for a design I found in a prepper book.  It actually workt as designed but I feel the rocket design is even better.  Had I known about the rocket design back then, I would have built it too.  

Now I am mulling over a design to use the rocket stove, not only for a heat and/or cooking stove, but as a source for heating a boiler as well.  Any ideas are welcome.


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## comstock-friend (Jan 18, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> ASME prohibits riveted boilers, and prohibits soft soldered boilers, because there are too many accidents (like yours) in the history books.
> To the regulators, one bad accident is more important to eliminate than a million successful operations.
> Enjoy the hobby! (But Safely!).



In 1974 ASME Section 1 (my last code book) Riveting was fine, and I assume it is now as most US Tourist Railroads and museums repair their locomotive boilers by riveting. Here is the Nevada State Railroad Museum's 'Glenbrook' in process of being riveted and as finished. She is fully approved by the State of Nevada's boiler inspectors and applicable insurance agencies..

Older joint configurations have been outlawed such as lap seams. And the interesting thing is that riveting does not require code certified personal such as welding would require, as a rivet is visually inspectable...

John


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## comstock-friend (Jan 18, 2022)

Nothing in the ASME Code (of 1974) shows copper plate as allowable in boiler construction, but copper tubes ARE allowed:

John


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## Bentwings (Jan 18, 2022)

comstock-friend said:


> Source for this please, Dan.
> 
> The ASME Code (which our little boilers are generally and thankfully exempt from) cold water pressure test for fired boilers is 1.5 times Maximum Allowable Working Pressure (MAWP). On pressure vessels it is 1.5 times MAWP times ratio of material allowable stress cold divided by material allowable stress at operating temperature. For our boilers hopefully the ratio of allowable stresses is 1.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info I stand corrected. I did contact local regulations but our stuff is too small to worry about unless abused. Fire box in homes might be frown upon. That’s why I’ve elected to go electric . Besides it’s “ green “LOL.  HAHA . My ultimate test will not be air pressure hydraulic n a water tank it won’t explode maybe push the end cap out or pull screws out . I’m hoping to get this fluid dynamics program up and running so I’ll have additional data. It’s been a long time since I’ve used it . So I’m stumbling around .
Byron


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## Steamchick (Jan 18, 2022)

Hi Richard. I have seen simple designs of water heater as a single coil of copper tube in the flue of the rocket stove.... As long as the water flow is pumped and controlled by output temperature - so the water doesn't boil - the articles all shout "success".
But in the UK we don't have free wood, just expensive gas.
K2


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## HMEL (Jan 18, 2022)

Bluecat said:


> As I'm on the road of building a boiler, I should ask this right now. If I completely rivet a boiler together and solder the seams with soft solder, it should be fine, right?
> At the moment I do not have enough heat to properly solder a boiler of such size (3x7,8 inch, if I remember correctly). It's going to be fired with wood or charcoal, whatever I can get for a run.
> 
> The bushings could go pop though. Should I invest in another blowtorch and silver solder it or will soft solder do? I'm hoping to go up to 2 bar/29,4 PSI pressure with this boiler.


Wrong-- You need to put the rivets in the right spacing.  If they are too close together or too close to the edge you weaken the metals holding strength .   Maybe somebody on the forum can help you go that route.  You are asking the right questions at the right time. Silver solder is the way I would go. Find a good heating and air conditioning guy who does that work to learn how to do it properly.


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## Richard Hed (Jan 18, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard. I have seen simple designs of water heater as a single coil of copper tube in the flue of the rocket stove.... As long as the water flow is pumped and controlled by output temperature - so the water doesn't boil - the articles all shout "success".
> But in the UK we don't have free wood, just expensive gas.
> K2


That has a lot to do with why I am doing all this.  I thimpfks that with a steam engine that uses ANY kind of fuel, one can heat one's house, cook, and make eletricity and power.  This includes hot water, of course, which we use for hot chocolatl, on cold days, and coffee or tea on regular days, or for washing and showers.

the present way expensive gas is used is a farce, travesty or even a conspiracy.  Most of the heat goes up the chimney when virtually ALL the heat could be harvested.  Look at it this way:  it's a cold _winter_ day, the stock are all dying from not being able to drink water because of the cold, the frozen water,  the grass does not grow because of a natural disaster, or maybe a nuclear exchange that has brung on nuclear winter, the sky is black, and yet it is July.  The neighbors have all killed each other and turned to canabalism--those that are left, that is.  But you, You sit cozily in your basement with your rocket heater providing electric power, heat and light for your grow lamps which also provide heat.  Once a day, you have to go out in the freeze to gather tree limbs, grass or buffalo chips, about 20 lbs. 

Well, I doesn't thimpfk it would ever be that bad, but thimpfk for a moment about your expensive gas--it REALLY could do double or triple duty.  the law of energy is that it can never be destroyed.  It can disipate out thru the cracks of the doors and windows, but the only reason it is not used twice or thrice is because we don't design our homes or society for the best use of energy.  Even electric energy created by the huge damns in the Soviet of Washington (The most dammed up river, apparently, in the world is the Columbia River), is greatly lost by leakage right into the air by the thousands of miles of electric lines.  The best place to generate electric power is right in the home--that is, when it is winter.  During the summer, it creates excess heat that has to be gotten rid of unless you use solar in some manner instead of burning some kind of combustible fuel.

PS, what articles?


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## kaolsen1728 (Jan 19, 2022)

I normally get involved with steel boilers and not copper ones. I will add that in the US, the ASME code now only tests boilers such as those used in model steam engines at 1 1/2 times the calculated operating pressure that the weakest component computes to. Also the maximum pressure at least in Washington State for  copper boiler is 100 psi. However, if the weakest component computes to less than 100 psi, then that will be the allowable maximum pressure. Note also that the ASME maximum material stress factor for copper in the calculations is 5,500 MAS. Mild steel plate (A36) is 14,500. So do the calculations and also I agree that silver solder is a must.


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## Richard Hed (Jan 19, 2022)

kaolsen1728 said:


> I normally get involved with steel boilers and not copper ones. I will add that in the US, the ASME code now only tests boilers such as those used in model steam engines at 1 1/2 times the calculated operating pressure that the weakest component computes to. Also the maximum pressure at least in Washington State for  copper boiler is 100 psi. However, if the weakest component computes to less than 100 psi, then that will be the allowable maximum pressure. Note also that the ASME maximum material stress factor for copper in the calculations is 5,500 MAS. Mild steel plate (A36) is 14,500. So do the calculations and also I agree that silver solder is a must.


Do you actually make boilers?  Have you got one to show?  How do you fasten it?  Do you weld it or silver solder?  I intend to TIG  one I have planned.  I made a prototype, got it up to 100 psi, then eventually cut it into pieces.  as I knew certain parts were inferioer.  Also, I had stick welded it and could not get a leak out of it.  The next one, will have very high quality parts, have the cuts, and chips done FAR better than before and the welds TIG.


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## Steamchick (Jan 19, 2022)

Richard,
I just searched "rocket stove water heater" (years ago) but there are still lots of guys who stick a heat echanger in the flue of rocket stoves - often just a coil of copper pipe, with a large water tank at the end. They are all atmospheric boilers, NOT pressure boilers.
How to Build a Rocket Stove Mass Water Heater, with Geoff Lawton - Bing video 

Brilliant DIY Off-Grid Water Heater Using a Rocket Stove – No Propane! - YouTube
Rocket Stove Water Heater III Build -PT1- - Bing video 
and loads more...
K2


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## Steamchick (Jan 19, 2022)

Hi, 
I know a lot of you guys have a lot of experience with boilers.  I have some too. But only making small boilers for boats and bench, but not locos. (e.g. 3" or 4" diameter up to 6" long). I have also repaired old boilers - that were good - and destroyed some BAD boilers. My bible was the K. N. Harris book of model boiler making. 
In the UK, as long as you have "a design" and can satisfy the examiner it is a sensible design, you can hydraulically test the "new" (or re-commissioned) boiler at 2 x NWP, then steam test at 1.5NWP, and if satisfied, the tester will issue a certificate witnessing those tests. He isn't saying it is safe, just that he has not seen anything he thinks is unsafe. He also checks safety valve operation, fixtures and fittings and water feed equipment.
Now, as I browse the net to improve my work, I found an article by Kozo Hiraoke in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading. This was his attempt to rationalise everyone's individual ideas on what the ASME regs tell you that you must do, and are a lot more up-to-date than the ideas of my revered Mr. Harris. I strongly urge you to buy a back copy of the magazine - to print it and publish here would infringe lots of copyrights, so I won't go there. (The editor would block it anyway!).
But it is very simple: You can make safe and reliable copper boilers within the ASME regs: But limited to Silver Soldered boilers at up to 100psi MAWP (with properly designed joints).
However:
A few points NOT covered by Kozo-San:

The compressive strength of copper at around 400deg.F. - the temperature at steam pressure 100psi. - is only around 21% of the tensile strength. I have spent months searching for more information on the web, without success - to try and find how this should be applied to boilers we make for models. E.G. The flue tubes carrying hot gases through the boiler are in compression from the surrounding water + steam at pressure. Likewise fire-tubes in many commercial boilers and "amateur" boilers. And the "conventional" firebox in a cylindrical vertical boiler has the inner tube of the firebox in compression, from the water in the surrounding jacket. - SO it is necessary to do the sums (hoop stress) and make sure these items are thick enough for the stress - when also considering the clear directive from ASME that you must de-rate the permissible strength value with elevated temperature. This means that many of the designs of Mr Harris and others who designed boilers before the age of Regulations, are "no good" to the standards we live with today. But by increasing wall thicknesses we can make them OK.
Similarly, my Engineering professional work (going back to the 1970s) meant I was also trying to understand how "ASME" an co. consider stress concentrations from "penetrations" in boiler shells when performing hoop stress calculations. My first move was my 1970s references - text books from 1930s - and simple diagrams and values of stress concentrations. This led me to SCF of 2.2 to 3.1 for various applications, until someone posted an ASME statement that "all penetrations shall be considered to have a stress concentration factor of 3.5". So that covers all the holes for bushes for safety valves, whistles, fire-holes to access fireboxes, Top -feeds for loco-boilers, etc. Yet I cannot find any reference in books by Mr. Harris et al to tell us the MODERN and Engineering approved (by ASME) method of doing designs with such penetrations.
So perhaps (like me until recently) these matters have been missed through simple ignorance "because we didn't know". Which is why I have had to de-rate some old boilers that were made to designs that do not meet a FOS of 8. (I am in the UK).
But I suggest we Engineers should do our research and find out "what we don't know" and need to know, so we can guide and advise the "Newbees" correctly.
My final point is that correctly designed and Engineered boilers in "whatever material" are safe. The calculations and Regulations are there to ensure that. Ignore them at your peril. Even if you don't think they apply to you. The laws of physics and Engineering don't know you are exempt.
Here endeth the lesson. 
Sorry if I prattle-on a bit, now shoot me down.
K2


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## Steamchick (Jan 19, 2022)

Hi K A Olsen, re: your comment of "the ASME maximum material stress factor for copper in the calculations is 5,500 Max Allowable Stress. ".
Kozo-San (in his published article, quoting ASME Table 1B of section II, part D) stated that ASME limit the tensile stress to 6700psi below 100deg.F: from which he goes on to follow how copper UTS changes with temperature and gets a value of MAS of 5400at 200deg.F. Certainly 5400psi is not right for pressure boilers, as the water has not even boiled at 200deg.F. To extrapolate further, Kozo-San has the MAS of 3142psi at 100psi. - This is the value I have been using for my boiler design calculations (hoop stress etc.
And for tubes in compression, the hoop stress is compared to a MAS of 660psi, due to the dramatic loss of strength in compression. (E.G. Flue tubes, fire tubes).
Notwithstanding, where there are "penetrations" the reinforcement (bush, plate, etc) must be capable of carrying the stress where there is no shell material, and the hoop stress calculations must use an SCF of 3.5.
Life just isn't simple, now.
K2


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## TonySteamHobby (Jan 19, 2022)

Could you guys clear something up for me?
I have been soldering jewelry for about 40 years using “silver solder”.

I buy it in sheets at the following melting points;
Easy 1240F   671C
Med 1275F   691C
Hard 1365F   741C

Plumbers, “silver solder” melts around 420-460F   220-240C
electrical solder (60/40) melts around 370F   188C

Which kind of “hard” and  “soft” solder are you referring to?

I have hard soldered large copper pieces (1365F) and it takes a lot of heat, flux and patience!


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## TonySteamHobby (Jan 19, 2022)

On another note, I have a couple of Jensen boiler/steam engines. I have often wondered what is in them (type of boiler) and how they are manufactured. 
Are these soldered?


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## methuselah1 (Jan 19, 2022)

TonySteamHobby said:


> Could you guys clear something up for me?
> I have been soldering jewelry for about 40 years using “silver solder”.
> 
> I buy it in sheets at the following melting points;
> ...



Soft solder always contains tin, usually with lead, though not always, and a whole range of other metals.

Silver soldering (brazing, hard soldering) employs a filler material that always comprises copper and zinc, and various other metals, notably silver. (I used to regard brazing as a distinct process to silver/hard soldering, but apparently modern nomenclature uses the term "brazing" for both.)

An obvious rule of thumb might be, if you can melt it with a soldering iron, it's soft, if you must use a torch, and have to get things red hot, it's hard.


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## Steamchick (Jan 19, 2022)

Tony H. Hard solder is without tin and zinc. Usual melting point over 620C.
Soft solder contains tin, lead or bizmuth, so usually melts between 140c and 220C. Lead solders are also "soft" - but can go up to 330C - I think? But I'm not an expert, just picked up what I was taught 50 years ago.
Maybe the web has a more accurate answer?
Zinc based solders and aluminium solders are between those... not sure how they are defined? 
K2


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## Steamchick (Jan 19, 2022)

The Jensen boilers are of a type referred to as "kettles" - they are a simple tank placed over a flame. Possibly a higher temperature lead solder? but more probably a silver solder. (applied as a paste on assembly then the whole job passes through an oven cycle to melt and solder the joints.) They will have less than 15psi for the pressure relief valve to avoid the rules of the day! - but be certified as "domestic use". You can set fire to you house with the meths easier than blowing up one of these!
K2


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## awake (Jan 19, 2022)

Richard Hed said:


> the present way expensive gas is used is a farce, travesty or even a conspiracy.  Most of the heat goes up the chimney when virtually ALL the heat could be harvested.



My understanding is that some (many? most?) modern heating systems do indeed harvest the vast majority of the heat that would otherwise go up the chimney, with a resulting efficiency of up to 98.5% - only 1.5% of the heat value of the fuel is lost! Here's one of many articles that popped up in a search for "high efficiency gas furnace": High-efficiency furnace | Benefits and Value | Goodman


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## Richard Hed (Jan 19, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi,
> I know a lot of you guys have a lot of experience with boilers.  I have some too. But only making small boilers for boats and bench, but not locos. (e.g. 3" or 4" diameter up to 6" long). I have also repaired old boilers - that were good - and destroyed some BAD boilers. My bible was the K. N. Harris book of model boiler making.
> In the UK, as long as you have "a design" and can satisfy the examiner it is a sensible design, you can hydraulically test the "new" (or re-commissioned) boiler at 2 x NWP, then steam test at 1.5NWP, and if satisfied, the tester will issue a certificate witnessing those tests. He isn't saying it is safe, just that he has not seen anything he thinks is unsafe. He also checks safety valve operation, fixtures and fittings and water feed equipment.
> Now, as I browse the net to improve my work, I found an article by Kozo Hiraoke in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading. This was his attempt to rationalise everyone's individual ideas on what the ASME regs tell you that you must do, and are a lot more up-to-date than the ideas of my revered Mr. Harris. I strongly urge you to buy a back copy of the magazine - to print it and publish here would infringe lots of copyrights, so I won't go there. (The editor would block it anyway!).
> ...


Thanx yew for that.  You made me realize that at any opening on a steel boiler that I should weld a ring around that opening.  For instance at the opening where I put water view tubes, pressure guages and steam pressure blow-offs, I should weld a ring around those holes.  I never considered that before.

As for your vid of the rocket stove, I have never seen tht particular one before, but I have seen many others.  Since I started watching those, there have been many more posted.  My design, however, is a bit different.  The internal coil will be up farther in the chimney section.  a regular boiler will be below.  the two have different purposes.  The boiler is for power and heating, the coil is for water heating only which is potable.


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## Richard Hed (Jan 19, 2022)

awake said:


> My understanding is that some (many? most?) modern heating systems do indeed harvest the vast majority of the heat that would otherwise go up the chimney, with a resulting efficiency of up to 98.5% - only 1.5% of the heat value of the fuel is lost! Here's one of many articles that popped up in a search for "high efficiency gas furnace": High-efficiency furnace | Benefits and Value | Goodman


I noticed that that article said this:

Each gas furnace model has an energy efficiency rating in the form of a percent. This number is its Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency (AFUE), or the ratio of annual heat output of the furnace compared to the amount of annual fuel energy it consumes. For example, if a furnace has an AFUE of 80%, it means 80% of the energy in the fossil fuel is being converted to heat while 20% escapes and is wasted 

Notice that is says "80% of the energy in the fossil fuel is being converted to heat".  This makes me wonder if they are saying 20% is not _burned_.  That seems absurd, so I thinmpfks that they mean, 20% is not absorbed by the heat exchangers.  This is not clear, and, being suspicious person, I always thimpfks that they are hiding something when such an error is made.  In this case, however, I thimpfks that it is just a way to shorten the explanation--I hope.


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## Bentwings (Jan 19, 2022)

kaolsen1728 said:


> I normally get involved with steel boilers and not copper ones. I will add that in the US, the ASME code now only tests boilers such as those used in model steam engines at 1 1/2 times the calculated operating pressure that the weakest component computes to. Also the maximum pressure at least in Washington State for  copper boiler is 100 psi. However, if the weakest component computes to less than 100 psi, then that will be the allowable maximum pressure. Note also that the ASME maximum material stress factor for copper in the calculations is 5,500 MAS. Mild steel plate (A36) is 14,500. So do the calculations and also I agree that silver solder is a must.


I called our local inspection and they said it’s too small to inspect unless it’s a fired boiler in and BC loses space like garage. Then maybe building inspector might recommend some thing bottom line just follow the local specs as they apply scaling down as needed essentially if it’s ok for air compressor it’s ok for model steam. Certainly don’t go for super high temps or pressures. A model steam rail road that pulls people is a different story. I think these guys have some other specifications. We visited several places that have these set up in our streetrods. There seemed to be much more safety in place automatically just by common sense. These guys are very fussy how their RR works and operate. We were impressed.   
otherwise you can spend hours calculating using Roarks engineering  calculations.  Some knowledge Of strength of materials is needed. The note above regarding placement of rivits is quite valid.
As former precision welder I can only say if you can’t produce a decent weld . Leave it to the experienced I did a lot of test welds in industry. Inspectors would come by and have you weld a test coupon representing current work. Better pass or it was off to be re taught and further testing 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 19, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I called our local inspection and they said it’s too small to inspect unless it’s a fired boiler in and BC loses space like garage. Then maybe building inspector might recommend some thing bottom line just follow the local specs as they apply scaling down as needed essentially if it’s ok for air compressor it’s ok for model steam. Certainly don’t go for super high temps or pressures. A model steam rail road that pulls people is a different story. I think these guys have some other specifications. We visited several places that have these set up in our streetrods. There seemed to be much more safety in place automatically just by common sense. These guys are very fussy how their RR works and operate. We were impressed.
> otherwise you can spend hours calculating using Roarks engineering  calculations.  Some knowledge Of strength of materials is needed. The note above regarding placement of rivits is quite valid.
> As former precision welder I can only say if you can’t produce a decent weld . Leave it to the experienced I did a lot of test welds in industry. Inspectors would come by and have you weld a test coupon representing current work. Better pass or it was off to be re taught and further testing
> Byron


It’s good to know that one has over designed something thanks  I’m really new here so I appreciate any comments. I’m pretty excited as the engine kit is supposed to arrive Friday I just got the new boiler tube and gave my son he big chunk of aluminum to start making chips. The hardest part is not being able to dig in myself. I just spend money and gather parts. LOL I’ve yet to have a hobby that didn’t require this. Baseball it was hard to keep up with bat tech even wood bats are now super tech. Bam boo being the latest. Bam boo is an incredibly strong wood. Laminated with carbon fiber make a nearly un breakable bat.  A $30 bat now costs $300. You need 3 of them . Why? You can only use one at a time?  It’s come to. Need a base hit? Extra base hit? Or home run? Bat for each condition  the issue is can you hit the ball in the first place ? Real  good hitter has only 40% chance of A base hit let alone a long ball. We don’t get paid one dime to play senior ball . We bough our own equipment, including uniforms and yearly season charges. Almost as expensive as racing cars or building streetrods  I’ve now got a whole season of steam toys already.
I feel for European fuel costs we think $ 4 gas is terrible it was effectively more than that 30 years ago when I visited Europe on business.  Just having a car to get around was considered a luxury.  I laughed at riding bikes everywhere was common. Guess what? Next summer I’ll be riding bike for shopping I can’t do on this keyboard.  It won’t be funny at all I have a Streetrod but I’m not supposed to drive  doc didn’t say anything about using bike. I’m just supposed to get daily exercise. Should I live to see another winter I just found studded bike tires even mini chains. Chains on a bike what’s this world coming to. ? Maybe I can use a drone for shopping. LOL 

BYRON


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## chrsbrbnk (Jan 20, 2022)

On many of full size traction engine boilers and some  models , in the us don't use a bushing for any penetration's where they can get  like 3 threads.  Some of the crown sheets don't have a bushing where the fusible plug penetrates.  Alot of the models  and or new boilers do have bushings welded into the plate penetrations   partially for better wear life , partially because stronger and partially because it looks better and partially because some are required by pipe size.


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## Bentwings (Jan 20, 2022)

chrsbrbnk said:


> On many of full size traction engine boilers and some  models , in the us don't use a bushing for any penetration's where they can get  like 3 threads.  Some of the crown sheets don't have a bushing where the fusible plug penetrates.  Alot of the models  and or new boilers do have bushings welded into the plate penetrations   partially for better wear life , partially because stronger and partially because it looks better and partially because some are required by pipe size.


Interesting thing happened last night. I gave the 4” dia 18” long round bar stock to my son yesterday . H left it in the car and it was -10 deg F so really cold. He has a shop coffee pot so when he came in in the morning he set it on the pot warming pad or heater over night he said I was 200 + deg F this morning he set it on a moving blanket and and covered it now almost 12 hours later it still 180 deg way too hot to pick up.  Hopefully the balsa insulation will work as well. I have a piece of 4” aluminum tube that I’m going to roll form th balsa sheet around. Old model plane trick. Wet the wood with ammonia water and gently wrap the wood around then let it dry. It should come out as close fitting round balsa tube .  I’ll cut holes for any fittings needed the polished stainless steel outer wrap will be much harder to deal with. We have some hole punches and edge rollers so hopefully the right sizes. But we can make what is needed on the lathe. I found some perfect gears for a gear boiler water feed pump too.
Buron


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## awake (Jan 21, 2022)

Interesting that this uses ammonia water. I've done wood bending using hot water or steam - get the wood flexible with the heat, bend around the form, and clamp, and when it cools / dries it holds its shape. What does the ammonia do in the process?


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## Bentwings (Jan 21, 2022)

Ammonia  I wish I had an answer fo you. It just something that I was taught I my very young model airplane days. I agree hocwater hot steam vapor off th tea kettle seems to do the same thing . I think the snob is does something to the wood donut bends Edie. I do remember bending wood in wood working class using it and the hot steamy process too in my current case it will be just as you said wet it and roll i around a tube then secure it for drying there should be a perfect molded shape. We use 3/4 oz fiber glass cloth and a finishing resin on airplanes it really strengthens the parts  Ihin the resin  just a little it’s home store alcohol. Not rubbing alcohol as that contains lots of water. 
byon


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## Bentwings (Jan 21, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Ammonia  I wish I had an answer fo you. It just something that I was taught I my very young model airplane days. I agree hocwater hot steam vapor off th tea kettle seems to do the same thing . I think the snob is does something to the wood donut bends Edie. I do remember bending wood in wood working class using it and the hot steamy process too in my current case it will be just as you said wet it and roll i around a tube then secure it for drying there should be a perfect molded shape. We use 3/4 oz fiber glass cloth and a finishing resin on airplanes it really strengthens the parts  Ihin the resin  just a little it’s home store alcohol. Not rubbing alcohol as that contains lots of water.
> byon


I just looked up in my portable library about ammonia . Anhydrous is bad that seems to be in agreement . When I was in grade school I think many teachers were fresh out of military trading from Ww2 there was only one way to do things . How you were being taught . All other ways were incorrect. No further discussion permitted .  In  Athletics a mistake or dumb comment usually resulted in running laps or doing some exercise until you dropped. So the Ammonia method became way to do things . I’ll try the hot water method tonight s the ammonia  won’t be here for a couple days. Apparently it softens the cellular bond but allows it to come back.  There was mention or tannin having something to do with it I don’t under stand that . I think tannin is leather industry stuff. Maybe someone can straighten me out .   I’m off to bend some wood. LOL 
Byron
byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 22, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just looked up in my portable library about ammonia . Anhydrous is bad that seems to be in agreement . When I was in grade school I think many teachers were fresh out of military trading from Ww2 there was only one way to do things . How you were being taught . All other ways were incorrect. No further discussion permitted .  In  Athletics a mistake or dumb comment usually resulted in running laps or doing some exercise until you dropped. So the Ammonia method became way to do things . I’ll try the hot water method tonight s the ammonia  won’t be here for a couple days. Apparently it softens the cellular bond but allows it to come back.  There was mention or tannin having something to do with it I don’t under stand that . I think tannin is leather industry stuff. Maybe someone can straighten me out .   I’m off to bend some wood. LOL
> Byron
> byron


ok, so I soaked a piece of 1/8” x3 x36” fir one hour in the bath tub then wrapped it around the 4”!aluminum tube I put about a dozen rubber bands around it but the wood did not conform completely so I put t back in the tub and covered it with a soaking wet bath towel . It’s now midnight so I’ll te soak it and go to bed shortly it doesn’t look like I’m going to get a full wrap tonight . I’ll repeat tomorrow . Just keeping it wet as possible it’s hot water . The wood is very close to splitting now. I don’t have an easy way of steaming other than standing it in s pan of simmering hot water   It will be a couple days before I get  the ammonia  
4 more sheets to go  

Byron


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## Rocket Man (Jan 22, 2022)

When I build a boiler I always fill it totally full of water so there is no air inside.  Then attach a water tank to the boiler and pressure the water tank with shop air compressor.  Air pressure is always a bomb if boiler busts but water leaks are just a water sprayer.


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## n8hfi (Jan 22, 2022)

awake said:


> Interesting that this uses ammonia water. I've done wood bending using hot water or steam - get the wood flexible with the heat, bend around the form, and clamp, and when it cools / dries it holds its shape. What does the ammonia do in the process?



The lignols that cross-link lignin (which is the polymer that gives wood stiffness) can be disrupted by an alkaline solution. An aqueous solution of ammonia is alkaline, and will also completely evaporate without residue. So wood soaked in aqua-ammonia will be pliable when wet, but when the ammonia evaporates, the lignin crosslinks will reform in the new configuration and the wood will retain its new shape.
Experiments were described, and references provided, in an article in US Boat and Ship Modeler magazine, Fall 1989.


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## Bentwings (Jan 22, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> When I build a boiler I always fill it totally full of water so there is no air inside.  Then attach a water tank to the boiler and pressure the water tank with shop air compressor.  Air pressure is always a bomb if boiler busts but water leaks are just a water sprayer.


Yes that’s the way it was done in industry we also had a water tank so there wasn’t any mess at all. I have a test purse that we’ll do later just to see where there are weak points. I’m not really worried about fittings as even aluminum AN FITTINGS HAVE TAKED SOME REAL HARD HITS IN THE RACE CARS WHEN THE BLOWER HAS 60+ psi boost then goes boom from essentially combustion pressure fittings stay in hoses might rip but nothing comes apart from pressure . The only fitting issues are if they are previously messed up . My gaskets are more likely to leak if this stupid spell check doesn’t stop messing things up. OL I MADE ARRANGEMENTS TO HAVEVTHE RAW CASTINGS PAINTED NEXT WEEK . I was looking at the connection for the two engines, I may have to add a flex coupling to prevent binding but it’s not really an issue that can’t be easily solved .
So I appreciate comments. Chips are being piled up already so there is progress . I have visitors coming next week so I’ll be busy intertwining a couple days .


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## Bentwings (Jan 22, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> ok, so I soaked a piece of 1/8” x3 x36” fir one hour in the bath tub then wrapped it around the 4”!aluminum tube I put about a dozen rubber bands around it but the wood did not conform completely so I put t back in the tub and covered it with a soaking wet bath towel . It’s now midnight so I’ll te soak it and go to bed shortly it doesn’t look like I’m going to get a full wrap tonight . I’ll repeat tomorrow . Just keeping it wet as possible it’s hot water . The wood is very close to splitting now. I don’t have an easy way of steaming other than standing it in s pan of simmering hot water   It will be a couple days before I get  the ammonia
> 4 more sheets to go
> 
> Byron


I just checked my submerged balsa wrapped tube and it’s not looking good it’s been wet for 30 hours and not fully wrapped. Ammonia won’t be here for another day . I don’t know if. Noted I did look up what it does. It weaken or stretches cell walls then as he wood dries the cell walls re turn to original . My kitty likes to claw on the bath mat but she does like water too so she left a few claw marks in the soft balsa . Ultimately it will work fine I’m glad you suggested it . I’ve scrapped th header wrap . I told my son to olishvthe boiler tube so it shines my grand son really does a nice job polishing aluminum  except for the end caps it won’t be visible I have some heavier extension cords for the plug in cord . Just got notice the electric timer got cancelled stuck in China . So I’ll pick another . I did get a nice pressure relief valve that’s adjustable. We have a pressure testing set up I will work on .  PM REsearch has globe valves but I found some nice stainless steel ones with Teflon ball so I may go with those. They are not very big . They will work for blow down .  There is also a solinoid valve that I may use for the fill circuit I’ll have to see how the gear pump turns out I could hook push buttons for each so blow down could be hands off for emergency . Once the boiler is done I can get more into how that shakes it . I’m almost finished with my sssembly bench there are a lot of parts in the box I’ve got a new needle nose plus a nice forceps so tiny stuff will not be much issue . -14 deg F tonight windy tomorrow electric blanket weather . Why do we choose to live up here  if I had a beard I could be a cave man my loving sister says I’m more like a neandrathal  because I’m thick headed. Not many are blessed with as nice of sister as she is  I was such a pill when we were growing up . 
byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 23, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just checked my submerged balsa wrapped tube and it’s not looking good it’s been wet for 30 hours and not fully wrapped. Ammonia won’t be here for another day . I don’t know if. Noted I did look up what it does. It weaken or stretches cell walls then as he wood dries the cell walls re turn to original . My kitty likes to claw on the bath mat but she does like water too so she left a few claw marks in the soft balsa . Ultimately it will work fine I’m glad you suggested it . I’ve scrapped th header wrap . I told my son to olishvthe boiler tube so it shines my grand son really does a nice job polishing aluminum  except for the end caps it won’t be visible I have some heavier extension cords for the plug in cord . Just got notice the electric timer got cancelled stuck in China . So I’ll pick another . I did get a nice pressure relief valve that’s adjustable. We have a pressure testing set up I will work on .  PM REsearch has globe valves but I found some nice stainless steel ones with Teflon ball so I may go with those. They are not very big . They will work for blow down .  There is also a solinoid valve that I may use for the fill circuit I’ll have to see how the gear pump turns out I could hook push buttons for each so blow down could be hands off for emergency . Once the boiler is done I can get more into how that shakes it . I’m almost finished with my sssembly bench there are a lot of parts in the box I’ve got a new needle nose plus a nice forceps so tiny stuff will not be much issue . -14 deg F tonight windy tomorrow electric blanket weather . Why do we choose to live up here  if I had a beard I could be a cave man my loving sister says I’m more like a neandrathal  because I’m thick headed. Not many are blessed with as nice of sister as she is  I was such a pill when we were growing up .
> byron


I just looked in on the bend. It’s just wet wood . I also had a reminder from another aero modeler that vinegar is used in wood bending. So today’s test will be white vinegar . I have to clean anyway so it will be a goo test . I actually forgot about this . So I give it a try . Now I have wet wood and it -10F outside so I’ll just stand it op in the shower  to dry .


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## Bentwings (Jan 23, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just looked in on the bend. It’s just wet wood . I also had a reminder from another aero modeler that vinegar is used in wood bending. So today’s test will be white vinegar . I have to clean anyway so it will be a goo test . I actually forgot about this . So I give it a try . Now I have wet wood and it -10F outside so I’ll just stand it op in the shower  to dry .


Once t dries it remains she Bouygues s stiff a ITV before I’ll try he vinegar tomorrow. Hard to mess this project up if the edges nt nicely curved I’ll just cut them off trim an yellow glue them back on . I’ll have Full 1/2” thick balsa cylinder


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## Bentwings (Jan 23, 2022)

Please disregard last post it’s not t all what I previewed.  I’m totally  frustrated I spend more time correcting this dumb spell check than I do writing


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## Bentwings (Jan 24, 2022)

After my last meltdown in frustration I’m UMI comftable posting again . I’ve continued Sean’s go mr information . Coorosion has been entered . I built and driven streetrods for many year my last was  supercharged Chevy eve and. Complet ca build I drove it 30k miles with almos no issues it had an aluminum radiator that I added fitting to by Tig welding it had anodes tat I changed yearly just like my boat it ran as high a 240 deg F with 16 psi pressure for is entire life there were Ac engine oil and trans oil coolers so there was a lot of heat transfer going n the interior was closvtnnew looking   There was no special water just plain old tap water Lyme as ever . So I’m ok s da I did a bunch of searching as a result of one ovy’all commens about coorosion . Turns out my home ad small Indus boiler a made from aluminums. High silicon based . I haven’t gone down t slot roa yet I’ve seen some really nasty pictures so I’m atertd. It appears that te anode will elf. But the input of cold water fill seems to hav  big effect  I had thought of tod by not h coosive fetch . I on understand it. How’ve I’ve given thought with at o doi exhaust heater it steam or vapor . Industry  uses condense or economy’s or I cad. So now other item to consider . I don’t nt end to have it running ll all day, juwhen I want to av fun, lying with toys a a-third gegen.  kid. I see another pe of fittings a Device

this post is going to be a mess. I tried to just delete it but it some how returned.

im switching devices  so now I have to do electronics hand changing. It appears there is less spellcheck intervention so I’ll give this a try.
im going to try the vinegar method tonight as I need to clean the bathtub anyway so I do two things together. The first test is almost dry. I’ll take a picture and try to post it. I’ll be able to use the vent wood but I’ll need a little rework to really make the wrap tight.  Balsa is easy to work with..
byron.


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## ddmckee54 (Jan 24, 2022)

The ammonia water trick works best for thin sheets, 1/16" or less.  The 1/8" sheets might be pushing your luck.  I've steam bent wood and even hot there's a limit to how much stress the wood will take before it breaks.  The native americans used to bend wood for canoe ribs and snowshoes just using water.  But the bending was done a little at a time with the wood soaking constantly over several weeks, if not months. while being bent.


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## mcostello (Jan 24, 2022)

Check out Engles Coach Shop, He makes and repairs buggys and wagons and such and bends wood. ok to delete if not allowed.


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## Bentwings (Jan 24, 2022)

ddmckee54 said:


> The ammonia water trick works best for thin sheets, 1/16" or less.  The 1/8" sheets might be pushing your luck.  I've steam bent wood and even hot there's a limit to how much stress the wood will take before it breaks.  The native americans used to bend wood for canoe ribs and snowshoes just using water.  But the bending was done a little at a time with the wood soaking constantly over several weeks, if not months. while being bent.


I just got the ammonia and I have vinegar so I’ll try both my humidity is pretty low  hot water bend is almost dry humidity pretty low even with humidifier  running. So drying much faster than expected.


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## Rocket Man (Jan 26, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Yes that’s the way it was done in industry we also had a water tank so there wasn’t any mess at all. I have a test purse that we’ll do later just to see where there are weak points. I’m not really worried about fittings as even aluminum AN FITTINGS HAVE TAKED SOME REAL HARD HITS IN THE RACE CARS WHEN THE BLOWER HAS 60+ psi boost then goes boom from essentially combustion pressure fittings stay in hoses might rip but nothing comes apart from pressure . The only fitting issues are if they are previously messed up . My gaskets are more likely to leak if this stupid spell check doesn’t stop messing things up. OL I MADE ARRANGEMENTS TO HAVEVTHE RAW CASTINGS PAINTED NEXT WEEK . I was looking at the connection for the two engines, I may have to add a flex coupling to prevent binding but it’s not really an issue that can’t be easily solved .
> So I appreciate comments. Chips are being piled up already so there is progress . I have visitors coming next week so I’ll be busy intertwining a couple days .



My son is a certified auto mechanic with about 10 certificates.  He loves to build hot rod engines.  He talks about boost all the time.  He bought a used  Chevy truck took, motor, transmission, rear end apart then built it his way.  He is getting about 600 hp out of the V8 engine.  He drives with lap top computer on front see so he can see with the engine is doing.


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## ajoeiam (Jan 27, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> My son is a certified auto mechanic with about 10 certificates.  He loves to build hot rod engines.  He talks about boost all the time.  He bought a used  Chevy truck took, motor, transmission, rear end apart then built it his way.  He is getting about 600 hp out of the V8 engine.  He drives with lap top computer on front see so he can see with the engine is doing.


I would be quite curious as to the software he's using to 'peek' into the controls on the vehicle - - please?

TIA


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## Rocket Man (Jan 27, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> I would be quite curious as to the software he's using to 'peek' into the controls on the vehicle - - please?
> 
> TIA



You need to talk to my son about that.  I will PM you his name so you can find him on Facebook.  He is an online auto technician he works at home 8am to 5pm you can not take to him while he is working.  You can send him a message during the day he will answer it later.   He loves to talk about engines.  Look at his truck on FB listen to the engine run.

I'm not sure how to do PM?   Found PM after typing message no option to SEND?  ????   I clicked start conversation not sure if that worked.??


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## Bentwings (Jan 27, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> You need to talk to my son about that.  I will PM you his name so you can find him on Facebook.  He is an online auto technician he works at home 8am to 5pm you can not take to him while he is working.  You can send him a message during the day he will answer it later.   He loves to talk about engines.  Look at his truck on FB listen to the engine run.
> 
> I'm not sure how to do PM?   Found PM after typing message no option to SEND?  ????   I clicked start conversation not sure if that worked.??


if you can put up with m so calls handicap I have an un correctable double vision I hav t use a stylus and hunt and peck letters on this iPhone the built in spell check has a mind of its own often creating words out of context mis spelled and just plain junk . I preview and make corrections it’s like target practice with two moving trgets . Which one is he correct one to shoot LOL it’s no fun at all .  But to continue I can se yo snd enjoyment Myanmar nd grand son do bothe computer and old school auto stuff. I’m of course very old school. I grew up in the early hot tod days and did the traveling race care match race thing actually made a living to some extent .
So for streetrods I build a supercharged abc ‘41 willys coupe . I drove it close to 39k miles before selling it. For a lot more than it cost me to build . I never dyno it. It had 26” wide rear tires with Detroit locker rear end I never raced it and really only floored it a few times it was violently fast and quick it had excellent traction with more time driving the car than spinning tires . I’m still in a cruise club that goes cruising back tosses I not supposed to drive medicall so much ofvthe fun is gone for me  but I still enjoy hot rod talk .  We drove a lot of miles on back roads just having fun going from place to lace . Durability and trouble free s the name of the game.  I spent a lot of timimevtuning and perfecting the blower carb combination to the pin of bang a daily driver car .  Jump in nd go by here. Turn the screen or heat on as needed. It had everything needed. No radio. No noise excep purr of exhaust .  Sad to see it go . 
ezpecially as the guy that bought it couldn’t figure out how to dim the lights or operate the turn signals on a gm intermediate steering colum. It probably sitting in a garage somewhere. Too bad it was a fun car. My son and grand son have an auto shop that fixes about anything that comes in the door. They too have a couple streetrods and a racer. I’m not even supposed to be in he shop so they help me by making stuff for me as needed. I had a string of supercharged cars I drove the wheels off of. Diesel dusky went 420k before I gave ito my son it’s still on the road and ready to pull or go anywhere . Grand son has a dusky too big Ford lots of goodies. I still do Rc models as stand around and chat with younger son he and his brother and I traveled all over flying my model warbirds . They are back at it . Modern day cars don’t impress me much anymore other than the engineering in them . They have become so complex that you have to be computer expert just to lift the hood . I know they make tons of power and are pretty clean but at what cost . I suppose if I live long enough I’ll have an android as a care giver . I can just say “ hey Andy” let’s go some place I’ll hear “ yes boss man I’ll get the car out “ how will an android take to a mask? Do they have to get vaccinated too ?
I’ll follow his as much as I can 

byron


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## Bentwings (Jan 28, 2022)

Rocket Man said:


> You need to talk to my son about that.  I will PM you his name so you can find him on Facebook.  He is an online auto technician he works at home 8am to 5pm you can not take to him while he is working.  You can send him a message during the day he will answer it later.   He loves to talk about engines.  Look at his truck on FB listen to the engine run.
> 
> I'm not sure how to do PM?   Found PM after typing message no option to SEND?  ????   I clicked start conversation not sure if that worked.??


 Got the ammon an the plain water balsa test sheets done th ammmnia is clearly the winner. It’s hard just like it was. So I’ll continue bending the sheets. I’ll get so medium CA ex week and laminate them. Ther will be a joint dowthe middle atthbtop f the tu. He will be t last 4 1/4” NPT fittings in the top.I found an old tool I made years ago for forming a flange or rolled edge on thin stainless steel holes . It will make either male or femal ones. I don’t ven remember what I used t for.  Must have been rc models as it was in with old rc stuff. So I can have a nice edge around the fitting holes. It’s a simple tool more punch like with matching die. I’ll be able to make  custom size now with the lathe. I unwrapped the crankshafts. Cool looking parts. I’ll take pictures as I assemble the engines. I still have some plumbing to plan. I did find nice pipe thread manifolds but the reviews are terrible. It’s a lot of busy work to frill and tap one but the purchased ones I’d have to retap most of the holes if the existing tap is too feet it could make the hole thing unusable. Thidea is to not have a leaky mess.  PM RESEARCH has a number of fittings and valves that are quite small so won’t take up a lot of space. I need direction on the blow down plumbing. I’ll get an angle globe valve and the boiler level gage they offer. I suppose I could make my own . You can get glass tubing. Also polycarbonate plastic will work but could cause issue if it gets really hot.  I have small new diamond cut off disc so cutting the glass might be ok. As usual. More than one pice on hand would be advisable.  . I have gears for a gear water pump. The traditional hand pimp is kinda Mickey Mouse hen converterted to motor drive from the couple I’ve seen on the inter net. I’ve already made a gear pump a long time ago so I’m ok with it. It will be a test to see how much water is consumed in operation. I don’t know how much torque the steamer can make. It has a bull n supcharger in ar terms. Just urn up the pressure. . I know the bore and stroke so I’ll make a guess based o calculation. 4 double acccting cyl make it essentially an 8 cyl der ngine less eiciency.   Just saw a prong brak . I’ve seen these used at he fm shows we go t in thspng. D really like a geberator Dino but that’s getting ahead of things for now. There are a lot of small parts to assemble. Many are wiggle fit or adjust it so I cansee a couple weeks of fooling around feting everything working smoothly. I just ordered aprcisiin polished los 
 tolerance shaft to align  the two engingines the cranks fit nice on trial fit. As do the lywheels. The big flywheel actually is supposed to Juan both engines. I can se getting this just perfect being more Han a few minutes  job.  plan on mounting them on a 1/4” aluminum plate o start with. That will give a good mount for accessory things like the dynamo. And turbines. . I still don’t have a feel for hs condenser.  Maybe some one can I’ve 
me. ideas . I found Ascroft makes relatively small liquid filled gages. They are industrial sopretty tough. I have one on my diesel truc that’s 20 years old and 42k miles. Still works perfectly.  PM esearch as well as mcmStr Carr have gear rod so making custom gears is easy. It’s not cheap but if you are making gear boxes I ghints a good way. Ithink both us. And  metric are available.  

byron
  available.


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## Steamchick (Jan 29, 2022)

Byron - Glass tube is easily cut if you have a 3-square fine file. Mark a nick at the place to want to cut it, then put a match-stick on the table, glass tube - at the nick point- nick facing up - and carefully press both ends over the match stick. You should have a clean square break that only needs some fine emery paper to take-off the sharp edges. It has been done that way "since Adam first sniffed coke through his water gauge glass"! You don't need "sophisticated tools" that make lots of hazardous glass dust! HAND tools are best. You are dealing with tiny parts, not battleships!
K2


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## methuselah1 (Jan 30, 2022)

All the above works great with silica glass. Unfortunately, all my raw material came via a chemistry lab, and these techniques just don't work with Pyrex. I tried! Scoring and cracking over a matchstick, no. Scoring right around with a carbide blade? No. Filling with oil, then spinning against a red hot wire? No. (I used to watch my grandad make hi-ball glasses from old bottles like that...)

With Pyrex, you don't have those options, so lathe/ dremel it is.

Andrew UK


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## Steamchick (Jan 30, 2022)

Some of us simply have to buy from model engineering suppliers.... so get the "regular" materials.
K2


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## methuselah1 (Jan 30, 2022)

I'm not going to contest what steamchick wrote, but for labs, test tubes are a throw away item. Pyrex is heat resistant and strong. Silica glass in education and industry is "old hat" these days, and if you're anywhere near a high school, and ring 'em, you'll probably get a lifetime's supply for free. Especially if you take donuts...


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## Steamchick (Jan 30, 2022)

As I have only experienced test tubes when I was at school > 5 decades ago... and they were thin walled and 1/2" diameter or more. My model boiler water gauge glass is 3/16" or 1/4" OD.and thick walled... Not like test tubes at all. And it costs pence, not £s. And is suitable for 6 bar continuous pressure.
K2


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## methuselah1 (Jan 30, 2022)

Absolutely. For reservoirs and such, test tubes. For boiler gauge glass, I buy from the specialist supply houses. I like my bollocks just where they are!


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## Bentwings (Jan 30, 2022)

methuselah1 said:


> Absolutely. For reservoirs and such, test tubes. For boiler gauge glass, I buy from the specialist supply houses. I like my bollocks just where they are!


So far it may be possible to simply use in supplied condition.  I’m flexible in location.


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## Bentwings (Jan 30, 2022)

I’ll use bushing for all fittings. Into the boiler shell. Once it’s completed I can figure out where every thing goes. I did find a nice NPT pipe manifold. The reviews were no rel good so I can plan on retapping  so proper threads are there. I’m kinda stuck until I get the engine frames back from painting. Once I get them I can finish assembly and test the assembly.  Then I can plan the real steam hook ups.  I did get a small ascroft pressure gage ordered.  I’ve used them for a long time so I don’t for see issues. I’ll have to create my own siphon  tube.


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## Bentwings (Feb 1, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I’ll use bushing for all fittings. Into the boiler shell. Once it’s completed I can figure out where every thing goes. I did find a nice NPT pipe manifold. The reviews were no rel good so I can plan on retapping  so proper threads are there. I’m kinda stuck until I get the engine frames back from painting. Once I get them I can finish assembly and test the assembly.  Then I can plan the real steam hook ups.  I did get a small ascroft pressure gage ordered.  I’ve used them for a long time so I don’t for see issues. I’ll have to create my own siphon  tube.


I just inished unpacking my new steamer the water level gage I pr cu to sizes so easy to use. It Ben has yuk in drain. Just 1 if I’ve 200 pieces . Nineframes went out for paint today. Boiler parts  in process. I’ll know more next week


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## Bentwings (Feb 1, 2022)

Spell check did me in again. I just unwrapped the boiler fill gage. It’s already up to length. I found NPT pipe manifolds but reviews are terrible. I did not want to spend half a day tapping holes n a custom on but. That’s what I’m going to do. Tat way I’ll have exactly what I need. WTH holes tapped correctly. . I want the minimum tapped ports in the boiler sell the manifold will allow optimum plain of each device.I’ll be also make custom size bushings or adaptors that I. May not hav locally. We go through this process every time we do a hot rod.  Once the engine frames are painted I’ll get after assembly .y I may have to start with an ai compressor at instead. I’ve got at least half a dozen test motors nd generators to test and work on. I just had a great weekend with my youngest son celebrating my birthday. More next week with ext son.so I’m ver busy.   I did find some nice stainless steel ball valves. So I have to start thinking about plumbing. It never fails that no matter how well you plan an think you have all singles covered that some thing changes at the last minute requiring a scramble to finish. So i m repaired for that already. I’ve got most electrical stuff to get me started.  High temp sealer. Teflon tape.  Small tube cutter. . Haven’t decided on hard line plumbing or high temp pressure hoses yet. There are advantages and desires for each.  Valves will work either way.  I end mor information on the condenser. I’ve seen some really complicated ones and some simple ones.   . Mainly I see it as a way to deal with exhaust steam or air. Like a catalytic converter in cars. They are expensive. And complicated for what they do. In y case I just want to prevent oily humidity from being exhausted into the house.there won’t be poisonous fumes like auto immersions but possibly stinky or oily. I can’t see this little engine making much ess. Model aircraft  were much more and noisy.  
byron
byyrron.  noxious.


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## Steamchick (Feb 1, 2022)

Small (bought) models often come with an oil separator. A bit like a cyclone vacuum cleaner, in that the intake (dirty, oily, wet, steam in your case) comes into a cylinder tangentially, and the gases swirl around depositing the heavier particles   (mayonaise) on the cylinder walls, to drain to the bottom. The exiting gases pass up a hole in the middle of the top cover of the cylinder. With a tall chimney, a lot of steam will condense here and drain back into the separator cylinder. So you'll get very little exhaust into the atmosphere.
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 1, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Small (bought) models often come with an oil separator. A bit like a cyclone vacuum cleaner, in that the intake (dirty, oily, wet, steam in your case) comes into a cylinder tangentially, and the gases swirl around depositing the heavier particles   (mayonaise) on the cylinder walls, to drain to the bottom. The exiting gases pass up a hole in the middle of the top cover of the cylinder. With a tall chimney, a lot of steam will condense here and drain back into the separator cylinder. So you'll get very little exhaust into the atmosphere.
> K2


I did see one like you described they operate much like metal separators that were used in textile cotton plants. I hav a filter op . I have a small turbine that I thought might try as a separator it can run up to about 40-50 Keon it has a top exhaust takes very little air to spin up .
Btron


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## Steamchick (Feb 1, 2022)

Hi Byron, But, a turbine is not a separator. Everything you put into a turbine comes out of the exhaust. But a separator has a gas exhaust, and a liquid drain. Thus it can separate the 2 media.
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 2, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, But, a turbine is not a separator. Everything you put into a turbine comes out of the exhaust. But a separator has a gas exhaust, and a liquid drain. Thus it can separate the 2 media.
> K2


I did look at a construction kit 
condenser. It had a funnel on the top.  And a drain port
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 2, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I did look at a construction kit
> condenser. It had a funnel on the top.  And a drain port
> Byron


not to dispute but my thought was the turbine rotates rally fast so I thought it might separate water oil and air with air coming out ofvthe exhaust that would then be final filtered any liquids cn be drained . It may not work that way . The other concern is hat by the time engine exhaust gets to a condenser it may have already cooled. So I may be necessary to re heat by using a tube through the boiler . That’s possible . I also saw where the “ cleaned air “ wa sent into the boiler fill water tank . I’m not realy understanding this. I’ve tried to follow industrial and home heating boilers but that may be over complicating things .  I’m mostly trying to prevent a mess in m work room . It’s cry dry in the house in the cold of winter . My humidifier pumps almost 2 gallons of water a day snd humidity is seldom over 25% RH  once the boiler is operational I think it may provide additional moisture. By way of relief valve .  Have a timer for the heaters so if I take a nap they will shut off in 30 minutes. I’m working on an auto fill pump so the boiler can’t run low.  I’m looking at an infra red detection device for the level gage. I’ll have a pretty good gear pump so it should be a reliable filling thing. I’m thinking of adding an auto blow down if pressure is exceeded too  I want to try a manual blow down first to see what is involved . I remember my little toy steamer when I was a kid made a big mess when I let the steam out  I just had a bucket back then but it still was pretty spectacular . I was a terror n baby sitters so a great cloud of steam pouring out around my rector set got their attention . LOL. 
byron


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## BillHowcroft (Feb 3, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi,
> I know a lot of you guys have a lot of experience with boilers.  I have some too. But only making small boilers for boats and bench, but not locos. (e.g. 3" or 4" diameter up to 6" long). I have also repaired old boilers - that were good - and destroyed some BAD boilers. My bible was the K. N. Harris book of model boiler making.
> In the UK, as long as you have "a design" and can satisfy the examiner it is a sensible design, you can hydraulically test the "new" (or re-commissioned) boiler at 2 x NWP, then steam test at 1.5NWP, and if satisfied, the tester will issue a certificate witnessing those tests. He isn't saying it is safe, just that he has not seen anything he thinks is unsafe. He also checks safety valve operation, fixtures and fittings and water feed equipment.
> Now, as I browse the net to improve my work, I found an article by Kozo Hiraoke in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading. This was his attempt to rationalise everyone's individual ideas on what the ASME regs tell you that you must do, and are a lot more up-to-date than the ideas of my revered Mr. Harris. I strongly urge you to buy a back copy of the magazine - to print it and publish here would infringe lots of copyrights, so I won't go there. (The editor would block it anyway!).
> ...


see also Advice on a boiler burner


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## BillHowcroft (Feb 3, 2022)

ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code - Wikipedia 

Some notes on the demise of ASME III which used to be the locomotive boiler code until 1963 it was repurposed as the Code for Nuclear power components.  Describes loco boiler stay bolt issues:




__





						Rolling back home: after more than 60 years, steam locomotive boilers get a place of their own in the ASME code. - Free Online Library
					

Free Online Library: Rolling back home: after more than 60 years, steam locomotive boilers get a place of their own in the ASME code. by "Mechanical Engineering-CIME";  Business Engineering and manufacturing Heating Equipment and supplies Heating equipment Locomotive industry Locomotives



					www.thefreelibrary.com
				



Recommend to avoid the download buttons

About ten years ago I went to an interesting presentation in Derby on the boiler problems with the A1 Tornado locomotive boiler.  This had been made in East Germany to the original plans but with significant welding instead of riveting and had some subsequent cracking due to the loss of the joint flexibility that rivetted boilers exhibited.    History - The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust


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## Steamchick (Feb 3, 2022)

With long boilers - like a full-sized A1,2,3,4..... - there can be excessive stresses from the differential expansion when being fired.... I.E. The shell is at near enough boiler water temperature for its whole thickness, yet the temperature inside the flue tubes is possibly a couple of hundred degrees hotter than the boiling water on the outside of those tubes...  thus the average temperature of the flues is higher than the shell. The consequential differential expansion between flue and shell can cause premature leaks if the tube swaging isn't strong enough for the temperature cycling between hot and cold stressed conditions. This becomes essentially a fatigue accelerated ageing.
I am surprised that riveting is considered more flexible than welding of plates, but know nothing of that anyway. Maybe rivetting lacks the embrittlement from the heat affected zones created by welding?
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 3, 2022)

BillHowcroft said:


> see also Advice on a boiler burner


Thank you for the note.  Have plan or hydrauitest. I’ve don this in industry so I’m fmilar  with the process I also have a set up for ultimate test. If I get 100 psi I’d be happy I actually have two pressure relief valves as well as electrical timers to prevent  un attended us. I do call local boiler inspection since I’m not usi  fired boiler they are not concerned unless  I was in a garage or inclosed  space  my boiler I really to small fr them to inspect.  A pressure cooker would be more dangerous . I don have that other . I have a lot of respect for danger of steam. I’ve done home work . There will be no welding on the aluminum and it can’t get to high enough heat to weaken the material welding I would be very concerned as I’ve done lots of tech Tig welding on aluminum I don’t like even comercial luminance or tanks even my new air compressor is steel tank . They are subject to rusting if aways been fussy about wat in air Ann’s as I used to o painting so even my little thing has input Ayer filtration . And it’s only used to run my steamer and fill an occasional bike tire . It also has dual relief valves . I’m new to boilers but I’ve done a lot of research to gain knowledge needed .
Thanks gain for the input . Once this thing is completed an tested I’ll report on it.

byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 4, 2022)

On Condensers... 
Condenser (steam turbine) | Engineering | Fandom 
This may help?
K2


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## BillHowcroft (Feb 4, 2022)

JE Gordon in 'Structures' has a couple of pages on riveted joints where he quotes Rudyard Kipling's' story 'the Ship That Found Itself' which is about the movement in structures undergoing ocean wave forces.
He says that it is a shame steel riveting has gone out of fashion due to its extra cost and weight.  The riveted joints act as crack-stoppers and also, because the rivets can slip slightly,  they can redistribute loads and thus reduce stress concentrations ( a bit like the shakedown that occurs at pressure test in welded structures).
As well as the removal of riveting from boilers, the aero industry has tried to move towards machining from solid and adhesive construction to reduce cost and the additional weight of rivet overlaps; but rivets are still there.

The Ship That Found Herself 
My father was skipper of the Rajula (sister ship of the American-losses HMT Rohna) in its final years and he complained about rivets popping out of the shell as they weathered a typhoon near Madras.


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## Bentwings (Feb 4, 2022)

We still use buck rivets in trailers they rarely pop out . I’m using button head cap screws in my new boiler. I suspect there will be leakage but hopefully the high temp sealer will stop that .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 4, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> We still use buck rivets in trailers they rarely pop out . I’m using button head cap screws in my new boiler. I suspect there will be leakage but hopefully the high temp sealer will stop that .
> Byron


interesting. It looks like I’ll have a small water fill tank I’m going to try to filter the condensate before it goes into th fill tank. I’ll keep an eye on it. I haven’t come up wt a water tank yet. I have a bunch of boiler tube left over and some aluminum bar stock oni coul easily make a matching fill tank . I have some plastic gets that I’ll try to make a gear fill pump. I’ll have an abundance of motors to drive the pump. I may also just creat a pressure vessel and let it fill to a given pressure. Then I won’t need the gear pump excep as a transfer pump from the condenser . I’m not getting too excited about this at this point as I have a lot of instructing going now I’m waiting to see how much water I’ll be using. 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 4, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> interesting. It looks like I’ll have a small water fill tank I’m going to try to filter the condensate before it goes into th fill tank. I’ll keep an eye on it. I haven’t come up wt a water tank yet. I have a bunch of boiler tube left over and some aluminum bar stock oni coul easily make a matching fill tank . I have some plastic gets that I’ll try to make a gear fill pump. I’ll have an abundance of motors to drive the pump. I may also just creat a pressure vessel and let it fill to a given pressure. Then I won’t need the gear pump excep as a transfer pump from the condenser . I’m not getting too excited about this at this point as I have a lot of instructing going now I’m waiting to see how much water I’ll be using.
> byron


Lots o good information. I had to start with a fresh white page. Fortunately my engineering background is still functional . I now have instant library available and countless spread shears have been created so designs can be self checked. I’m not planning on high pressures and temps. Since im
Not doing fire tube boiler .

byrn


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## BillHowcroft (Feb 4, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thank you for the note.  Have plan or hydrauitest. I’ve don this in industry so I’m fmilar  with the process I also have a set up for ultimate test. If I get 100 psi I’d be happy I actually have two pressure relief valves as well as electrical timers to prevent  un attended us. I do call local boiler inspection since I’m not usi  fired boiler they are not concerned unless  I was in a garage or inclosed  space  my boiler I really to small fr them to inspect.  A pressure cooker would be more dangerous . I don have that other . I have a lot of respect for danger of steam. I’ve done home work . There will be no welding on the aluminum and it can’t get to high enough heat to weaken the material welding I would be very concerned as I’ve done lots of tech Tig welding on aluminum I don’t like even comercial luminance or tanks even my new air compressor is steel tank . They are subject to rusting if aways been fussy about wat in air Ann’s as I used to o painting so even my little thing has input Ayer filtration . And it’s only used to run my steamer and fill an occasional bike tire . It also has dual relief valves . I’m new to boilers but I’ve done a lot of research to gain knowledge needed .
> Thanks gain for the input . Once this thing is completed an tested I’ll report on it.
> 
> byron


 Small electric steamer


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## Bentwings (Feb 4, 2022)

BillHowcroft said:


> Small electric steamer



M so sorry this spell check does it’s own thing no matter how well I review  . It changes thugs during te post. Even using a different device.     I’m hoping he engnefms will b paint by next us day so I can get assembly started . I’ll mount the basics on a temporary board then transfer to he plastic be . I have a bunch of  stepper motors to convert to generators  I’ll probably get a driver so I can use  couple to drive what ever I need that he tamer can not . I just don’t know how much power and rpm I’ll have to work with .  It’s parry of the interest .


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## kf2qd (Feb 4, 2022)

There have been numerous articles that I have read over the past 20 years on making small model boilers. They all used various forms of hard silver solder. Often solders that melt at different temperatures so inner part could be assembled with a higher temp solder and outer pieces with a lower temp solder. Those boilers were all made of copper, as it has excellent pressure characteristics and is easy to form and work, and with basic attention it does not corrode readily.  
Test any pressure vessel with it totally full of water, absolutely no air inside, and make a simple one shot hand pump to bring it up to pressure with water only. If you do have a failure you are only having to relieve the energy stored in the vessel, as water does not compress, and therefore does not store much energy, and if there is a failure or a leak it will very quickly release all pressure with just a small spurt.  Only pressurize it with air or steam after it has passed a static test with just water under pressure at a minimum of 2 time the working pressure. Find out what rules your local government has for small boilers, some places have very strict regulations, others have very limited regulations. Here in the states, many locals do not want to be bothered with small boilers and trust the maker to do their due diligence and produce a safe unit. This is because there is only a small amount of stored energy is the risk is regarded as minimal. 
And ultimately, safety relies on you using your head and intelligence, and no amount of regulation or examination can correct for you not using safe practices. And since most of us are familiar with running various machine tools, all with their own inherent dangers, we should be familiar with the idea of thinking things out and preventing injury.


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## Steamchick (Feb 5, 2022)

Hi KF. Just for peace of mind, I use ASME pressure requirements (and stress limits) for copper boilers. NOT because I have to, as I am in the UK, but simply because it is a "sensible safety level agreed by a concensus of very knowledgeable professional Engineers". I.E. Better advice than any you'll get from me! Except, maybe "Please follow ASME". EVEN IF you do not think it applies to you formally. It is (only) a Safety standard, and I guess any Engineer with any sense of responsibility, professional acumen, or any other excuse would do so. It just seems stupid not to follow Professional Safety advice.
But it is a free world, and (as a Motorcyclist that has beaten the statistics) I am always suprised by people who choose NOT to follow simple SAFETY measures. (Like riders in Florida who choose to ride without helmets!). Usually, because "they know better", or "don't need Safety advice".... etc.
Nuff said?
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 6, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi KF. Just for peace of mind, I use ASME pressure requirements (and stress limits) for copper boilers. NOT because I have to, as I am in the UK, but simply because it is a "sensible safety level agreed by a concensus of very knowledgeable professional Engineers". I.E. Better advice than any you'll get from me! Except, maybe "Please follow ASME". EVEN IF you do not think it applies to you formally. It is (only) a Safety standard, and I guess any Engineer with any sense of responsibility, professional acumen, or any other excuse would do so. It just seems stupid not to follow Professional Safety advice.
> But it is a free world, and (as a Motorcyclist that has beaten the statistics) I am always suprised by people who choose NOT to follow simple SAFETY measures. (Like riders in Florida who choose to ride without helmets!). Usually, because "they know better", or "don't need Safety advice".... etc.
> Nuff said?
> K2


I am trying to follow safe guide lines


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Feb 7, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi KF. Just for peace of mind, I use ASME pressure requirements (and stress limits) for copper boilers. NOT because I have to, as I am in the UK, but simply because it is a "sensible safety level agreed by a concensus of very knowledgeable professional Engineers". I.E. Better advice than any you'll get from me! Except, maybe "Please follow ASME". EVEN IF you do not think it applies to you formally. It is (only) a Safety standard, and I guess any Engineer with any sense of responsibility, professional acumen, or any other excuse would do so. It just seems stupid not to follow Professional Safety advice.
> But it is a free world, and (as a Motorcyclist that has beaten the statistics) I am always suprised by people who choose NOT to follow simple SAFETY measures. (Like riders in Florida who choose to ride without helmets!). Usually, because "they know better", or "don't need Safety advice".... etc.
> Nuff said?
> K2


Hi Steamchick, What Bike have you got?
Graham (Grum)T.


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## Steamchick (Feb 7, 2022)

Hi Grum. Moto Guzzi V50 II. 1979 model (the slowest of the variants?). I have had it since 1998. Too many tales for this thread. I used it mostly for fair weather commuting. Since retirement it gathers dust except for odd trips - when the roads are salt-free! Current "entertainment with it is trying to tune it for congested city traffic. Guzzi didn't do that. They tuned it for city squirt and stop per Italy in the 1970s! - and using 99 octane leaded fuel. Modern fuel just doesn't have the combustion characterising of leaded, which tells at the top end! But the carbs were tuned with very rich pick-up, which doesn't suit crawling, at just off idle. Way too rich! So I have been milling the slides to change the air mixture just above idle (first 1/8th of slide motion).
Keep the wheels turning!
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 8, 2022)

GrahamJTaylor49 said:


> Hi Steamchick, What Bike have you got?
> Graham (Grum)T.


iv been a support f safety fr a long tim I still have all fingers and only a fe tensing scars from sports . I plays sots longbfoethe pore I equip nt of today. Playing hockey unilateralism. Was 26 my defensive partner and I had probablyamong the first chest prtectown we wore our baseball catchers vests . I don’t remember where we got the hard elbow pad but thy aced he Elvis mouth protection and the masks o today had not been invented yet so a few teeth were lost the same with baseball the regular hat gave yvt early hard hats but didn’t protect face I broke two hi tech hard cheek helmets my last year in senior ball at 72. Of course heav K9 dog training had good safety equipment but we still had trips to the ER  as in football leg and knee injuries happen no matter how much padding you haveAuto racing developed extensive fire protection but ther were still a few injured . Now with stem engines a new to me area has developed  I simply can’t have n open flame or Buber in my home so I into electric boiler. I’ve gone through the engineering analysis and contacted local inspection. It turns ou that my system is just too small for them to come out I got som hide lines to follow and I’ve incorporated them int my unit . Iv do industrial very high pressure vessel testing and done tank truck welding repair. So I have a god feel for what is required. I had many Tig welding certifications and even taught briefly my vision is not good so I leve the welding to my son and grand son they both are doing very well   Being a senior I have to be careful every step. Say off ladders be careful walking on slippery streets etc. even sharp kitchen stuf has to be given thought  many seniors get injured because of old practices . In sorts we were taught and practiced rolling when going down .  Anyway I’m trying to have interesting times in steamers

byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 14, 2022)

kcmillin said:


> Hey guys, thought I would share a bad experience with you.
> I was making a boiler for use with some small steam engines I had. I used an old propane bottle and some copper tube. I had a pressure guage and steam dome on top with two water tubes made out of copper on the bottom. With a homemade burner I was making steam in no time. NOW, here is the bad part, I used electric solder to peice everything together. I pressure tested it to 140 psi, and held it for a half hour. So I though I was good to steam it to 60 psi. Well I was wrong, It pressured up and with out any warning BOOOOOOM there goes the steam dome and pressure gauge accross the shop and boiliing hot steam went shooting out the top, and there I am standin not but two feet from the thing and did not even get a drop of water. needless to say I have not pressured the boiler up again and am verry apprehensive to ever do it again. I was lucky but i might not be next time.
> 
> the morel,
> ...


I guess I thought I had commend negatively but not viscerally . Inotherwords not trying to be. Nasty or a. Dork.LO

 quite a long time ago I began monitoring mode airplane gas engine heat areas. Ylhea temps spark plug temps and exhaust temps. I mistakenly thought could be the hi Gas temps with copper tubing pip soldere together. I had an entire system literally fall apart befor I was able to taxi the plane to the runway. Probably fortunately. Almost all of the solder joints just fell apart. Since I can see very well now I’ve limited my welding to instruction of my soon and grand son. Both are tracking me like a search and rescue dogs.  LOL. I did a lot of ver precision tig welding Abel as taught in the company I work at.  As I go into model steam engines it didn’t take long to look at making boilers.  I’ve seen some truly scary videos of soldered boilers. Silver brazing and just plaibrazing of copper is really easy I think and very capable.  Of course there is poor edutainment too.   The exact thing you experienced was noted s possible in several videos.just the visual appearance before functional was bad enough. Some I would not have gon as far as filling with water let alone heatin. Almost any hand hld Roman orbttled fuel gas torch can get to 1000 deg F well past the elating temp of any soft solder  So it follows that if it gets near a soldered joint it could melt the. Solder even if it’s cooled by internal water.  It’s not real hard to braze with these units but silver solder is quite eepensive but standard brazing rod wiiyhout flux works too, if the copper is well cleaned.  I did make at least half a dozen scale functioning rc airplane exhaust with copper fittings and just brazing rod. None melted in operation.  Almost immediately this brings up soldering aluminum with some of the new aluminum stuff. I’m definitely opted to this have tig welded many very complex thing from aluminum. Some alloys I’d aluminum are not weld able and I would not even think of trying any kind of soldering. Remember you SAR trying to join metal that sbsorbs a radiates heat better than most common materials. It’s not even easy to tig weld in aluminum . It takes a very steady gavdan lots of patience.  
 Anyway as usual I’ve drifted off topic.
bottom line useelectrical solder for wires not boilers. I’m very glad you were not injured in your nasty experience. Steam is very dangerous.


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## Bentwings (Feb 14, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I guess I thought I had commend negatively but not viscerally . Inotherwords not trying to be. Nasty or a. Dork.LO
> 
> quite a long time ago I began monitoring mode airplane gas engine heat areas. Ylhea temps spark plug temps and exhaust temps. I mistakenly thought could be the hi Gas temps with copper tubing pip soldere together. I had an entire system literally fall apart befor I was able to taxi the plane to the runway. Probably fortunately. Almost all of the solder joints just fell apart. Since I can see very well now I’ve limited my welding to instruction of my soon and grand son. Both are tracking me like a search and rescue dogs.  LOL. I did a lot of ver precision tig welding Abel as taught in the company I work at.  As I go into model steam engines it didn’t take long to look at making boilers.  I’ve seen some truly scary videos of soldered boilers. Silver brazing and just plaibrazing of copper is really easy I think and very capable.  Of course there is poor edutainment too.   The exact thing you experienced was noted s possible in several videos.just the visual appearance before functional was bad enough. Some I would not have gon as far as filling with water let alone heatin. Almost any hand hld Roman orbttled fuel gas torch can get to 1000 deg F well past the elating temp of any soft solder  So it follows that if it gets near a soldered joint it could melt the. Solder even if it’s cooled by internal water.  It’s not real hard to braze with these units but silver solder is quite eepensive but standard brazing rod wiiyhout flux works too, if the copper is well cleaned.  I did make at least half a dozen scale functioning rc airplane exhaust with copper fittings and just brazing rod. None melted in operation.  Almost immediately this brings up soldering aluminum with some of the new aluminum stuff. I’m definitely opted to this have tig welded many very complex thing from aluminum. Some alloys I’d aluminum are not weld able and I would not even think of trying any kind of soldering. Remember you SAR trying to join metal that sbsorbs a radiates heat better than most common materials. It’s not even easy to tig weld in aluminum . It takes a very steady gavdan lots of patience.
> Anyway as usual I’ve drifted off topic.
> bottom line useelectrical solder for wires not boilers. I’m very glad you were not injured in your nasty experience. Steam is very dangerous.


Some where in this boiler thread someone asked how I was going to make a. Steam dome . since my aluminum tube boiler rests on stands I thought I’d just tilt isome amount and let the steam bubble form on one end. I was just going to tap a 1/2” NPT thread hke a plumb from that t my distribution center. , well after giving more ought i m now going to still use the same tapped feature but I’ll add a brass bushing to osibily a 3/4” piece of pipe capped an ported to my distribution center. Th additional pipe will serve as a steam dome. This may or may not be big enough volune so comments appreciated.  
I also ad middle of the night wake up idea.  Being a car hotrodder. Ts bar o eat mor displacement for more power. Soooooo.
hatf I bore the steam cylinders for say a twice diameter piston.  4 as I have 4 cylinders.  I could order 44 new cylind the make 4 larger bore pistons ?  I have tone the calculations yet. Stock pistons ar only 14 mm . There is easily enough material to double the bore size. Considering that it won’t be hard to run arounf
d 100 psi in aiompressor configuration the force the pistons put on the crankshaft would increase dramativClly. The stroke is 19 mm. So it’s not har to figur it total displacment and theoretical torque amounts.I thihe crankshafts can handle it.  It follows that a stroke increase would be cool too. Now this becomes mor challenging as making two “ trojer crank” could take some tight. I have ideas floating around. Imjjust starting assembly of the machine now. I got a pair of risers for the two engines so the will be more flywheel clearance..  I’ll measure up the cylinders after today. My honeyeaters gave out yesterday. Of course it well below  deg F. Inside tem was down to 49 deg F when I got up in the morning. My kitty wa puffed u like a fur ball onyelectric blanket.   Have Somme heaters and I’m. Nrsingbe furnaceuntill repair service gets here. I’ve managed to get indoor temp to an even 70 deg F so I’m comfortable.


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## Steamchick (Feb 14, 2022)

So you think the crank - and bearings - can take double the diameter of cylinder and bore? Yes, probably for a short time. Good idea if you drop pressure, otherwise with 4 times the forces applied the durability may be only 1/16 th of the manufacturer's design. In fact it isn't 1/16, it's probably even less as it is a logarithmic function, not a square function.
Depends what you want from the engine. 1 x 1/4 mile blast? Or 24 hours racing Le Mans, or 10 years of trucking in Alaska. Or even just a few runs in your living room.
You'll probably find the ports are too small to appreciate the extra power. Steam is not like air into an ICE. As the steam expands from valve chest into the cylinder, the pressure naturally drops and the steam starts to cool. Big ports reduce this adiabatic expansion, but small ports mean too much cooling, so you are short of steam power in the cylinder. A self-defeating "improvement". If I was you I would not bother. I naturally assume the manufacturer has tuned the displacement, port sizing, bearing sizes, etc. To be a matched set, balanced for optimum running, and customer satisfaction. I am sure you know all this, so try sleeping at night.
Enjoy!
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 16, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> So you think the crank - and bearings - can take double the diameter of cylinder and bore? Yes, probably for a short time. Good idea if you drop pressure, otherwise with 4 times the forces applied the durability may be only 1/16 th of the manufacturer's design. In fact it isn't 1/16, it's probably even less as it is a logarithmic function, not a square function.
> Depends what you want from the engine. 1 x 1/4 mile blast? Or 24 hours racing Le Mans, or 10 years of trucking in Alaska. Or even just a few runs in your living room.
> You'll probably find the ports are too small to appreciate the extra power. Steam is not like air into an ICE. As the steam expands from valve chest into the cylinder, the pressure naturally drops and the steam starts to cool. Big ports reduce this adiabatic expansion, but small ports mean too much cooling, so you are short of steam power in the cylinder. A self-defeating "improvement". If I was you I would not bother. I naturally assume the manufacturer has tuned the displacement, port sizing, bearing sizes, etc. To be a matched set, balanced for optimum running, and customer satisfaction. I am sure you know all this, so try sleeping at night.
> Enjoy!
> K2


I don’t have super heat tubes in my boiler. I did see that these would be under compression as pressure rises. Frankly since it did not apply to my new boiler I didn’t worry about it . Digging through Roarks eng book I ran across hoop stress this application is a reverse ofvthe burst pressure greatly simplified there is a section on how to calculate this I also found on line calculator but again I dismissed it as it does not apply to my unit . My local rulers don’t even want to come out and look at my small boiler as long as it’s not fuel fired they don’t care now if it was a loco and pulling people it would be a different story I don’t know about boats . I’d guess call and find out. The boat club might be helpful too. Boilers are new to me so I’m no expert. I’ve only dealt with internal pressure vessels. Some extremely high and exotic materials far beyond model stuff. I recall procedures and things done but even so it’s way beyond our stuff . I know enough to be carefull and maybe over build . And don’t use soft solder on fuel fired boilers . I would not use it on any pressurized container . I have done some exotic Tig and laser welding on pressure vessels so I’m aware of procedures and equipment . I considered stainless steel and welding it as I have welder material and correct filler rod but elected not to do this due to cost and my poor eyesight that limits welding skill now. Also considered plain alloy steel as that was available too it’s much easier to properly TIG weld it. 4” diameter tubing has suddenly become very hard to get. Seamless tubing is around but about parallel to aluminum in cost so I chose fabricated aluminum as it’s much easier to work with . I could TIG  weld it but I think I’ll be inside the unit as much as I’ll be servicing the steam engines.
I just ran into an issue I didn’t know about I’m not very metric so I didn’t realize there are other than standard m3 thread pitches  I should know this but I seldom make things with metric threads. I can pick up Mose USA threaded objects and tell whether it’s fine or coats thread or pipe thread or even AN. Thread an note what pitch it is. But m3 is pretty small for my eyes I carefully measured the screws then drilled what I though was the correct tap hole size. Wel surprise surprise the tap ain’t going t thread that undersized hole. I had to get out the known screw and lay it along side the tap to see there was different pitch I’m not sure where I screwed up but what ever I got is wrong . Surprising the local hobby shop has exactly the tap set I wanted . I’m sure it’s not cobalt exotic material but it will tap aluminum . It was 15 min befor closing and he said he would drop it off at the post office on the way home  how’s that for service? I may even get it today . Then the tap handle I ordered came without the cross handle rod so I have to use a drill for now untill I get out to the shop again.
Byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 16, 2022)

Hi Byron, Superheated tubes do not go inside the hoiler. The only way to superheat steam above boiler temperature is to run them through a fire box or smoke box with higher temperatures than the boiler. You electric heaters inside the boiler cannot do that. But if the heater elements are inside tubes, they must be sized for compressive hoop stress, and stress concentration factors for ovality... etc...
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 16, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, Superheated tubes do not go inside the hoiler. The only way to superheat steam above boiler temperature is to run them through a fire box or smoke box with higher temperatures than the boiler. You electric heaters inside the boiler cannot do that. But if the heater elements are inside tubes, they must be sized for compressive hoop stress, and stress concentration factors for ovality... etc...
> K2


I’m sorry I was confused thanks for the clarification .  Since the electric heaters are essentially heating elements inclosed in stainless steel tubes I did consider boiler pressures on them still safe.  I doubt if I’d ever see even 100 psi in my boiler . I have an adjustable relief valve and facility to set it. I’m also planing a solenoid valve for rapid or emergency relief . I’m considering making this automatic by connecting an electrical switch operated by pressure . I’ll have a dump bucket and venting capability . Maybe even a buzzer or alarm. I don’t intend to leave this unit unattended for more than a couple minutes. I just got my 1/4 40 TPI me tap and die. PMresearch sent a very nice catalog too they have a series of 1/12 scale pipe fittings that I’ve seen others use. I’m not sure what my piping will look like yet. I got stalled by having the wrong pitch  m3 tap I expected new ones today but hopefully tomorrow I got a neat “ helping hands” soldering tool to help hold wires for soldering . That should make life easier .
Byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 17, 2022)

Hi Byron,
No problem about being confused! Sometimes I offer the answer to the wrong question anyway...
Just to be sure: Will the stainless steel heater tubes be 
1) directly exposed to boiler pressure, *or* 
2) will they be in some tubes... essentially keeping them dry?

If #1, then the manufacturer's data sheet should tell you what pressure they can withstand.
If #2 then you need to calculate the strength of the boiler tube that contains the heater elements in compression, with all the distortion factors included.

OK?
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 17, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron,
> No problem about being confused! Sometimes I offer the answer to the wrong question anyway...
> Just to be sure: Will the stainless steel heater tubes be
> 1) directly exposed to boiler pressure, *or*
> ...


One thing that has bothered me is that most bearing lube is done by just drip oiling. From observing various engines at th spring farm show there usually is a messy patch of ground around steamers snd hit and miss engines . My model is no different just drip lube or lubricated steam or air from the compressor. Certainly I’ll have a mess too but I have allowed for oil control at some point. Looking at construction creating a pressurized oil system like automobile engine would entail rethinking entire designs . As long as plain bearings don’t get excessive clearance almost any significant oil presence will be ok it’s nearly impossible to easily seal the average bearings on gear models steam I’ll is great as it was developed to counter these conditions but it realy needs the heat to make it flow properly and not get all gummed up.  I’ve used ai tool oil for a long time in air tools and they seem to last forever . The mfg of my engine even recommends it as long as is drive by air compressor then switch to steam oi when running on steam . Now overloading bearing by souping up the engine needs some lubrication thought it’s easy to increase viscosity some ang get back to dynamic lube but there is limits too my engine has very tight clearance for a small model enginge I look at Rc model engines running 50 to one gas oil mixes. I did hat for a long time and never had bearing or piston problems but there lube is a constant spray of fine oil and gas. So maybe the dropper is sufficient I’d probably use mor dri oil volume in my model steamer than I’d use oil volume in a day of Rc flying gasoline is a poor lube itself but it sure can spread anything mixed with it. I’m glad my model steamer has easily replaceable main bearings almost as easy as car bearings . So for now I’ll not worry about them.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 17, 2022)

Going back to the super haters. I’ve continued reading to gather better understanding of them . The tubes seem to be right in the fire source draft or flow so obviously get really hot. In effect I’m reading they are a way to remove moisture from the wet steam. Dehumidifier in simple terms the pressure is increased due to super heating the steam vapor the pressure pressure comes from the change of state ofvthe humid wet steam. Thus adding lots of energy to the hotter steam . And efficiency ofvthe system . So suppose I added two or more u shaped tubes in the steam dome that went below my boiler to an induction heater  now heating the steam vapor and returning it to the steam dome . A recirculating system . In other words boosting efficiency of my boiler . I have used induction heater in industry but not even close to this way I don’t think it would be hard to make as they are flexible design I don’t think aluminum or even copper tubing would be a good idea her. I have some smal diameter stainless steel tubing and making joints would be relatively easy . I’m not really looking to increase pressure dramatically but maybe make some much higher temp steam available . I may be way off base her. Obviously I have to study this process more  I guess I’m asking how is this steam circulated or is it done as a result of rapid change o state 
Byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 17, 2022)

Hi Byron, post #122: Just do as the book says.... Air lube when on air, steam oil when on steam - internally, in the steam passages. But I use motor oil (5W30) all the time with no wear issues, except for the steam oiler (displacement lubricator) for engine internals via the steam feed pipe. In fact the displacement lubricator (the displacement is caused by condensing steam, the water draining to the bottom of the oil container and forcing the oil out) is normally "outlet at the top", but when I use air, I invert the displacement lubricator and using light machine oil (compressed air lube, 5W30 engine oil or 7W lathe bearing oil). It works fine, and having simple in-line connectors I can invert the oiler very easily.
Stay safe and sane. 
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 17, 2022)

I’ve been reading about superheating most of the day. I’m glad you clarified the positioning of the super heat tubes. I did see them in numerous examples today . I think I’m going to stay away from super heating and live with the messy exhaust as the excess temp could get after my brass cylinders even with steam oil. I could modify or make new cylinders but I think I may be asking for issues. It’s bad enough I’m looking at over sizing the bores. I’ll leave the stroker cranks too . I’ll know a lot more once I get things really operational . I’ve got at least half a dozen stepper motors to convert to generators . I’ll probably have to come up with a drive train of sorts so I think I’ll slow down a bit I didn’t get my taps today so I’m stalled anyway I have in home doc visits tomorrow so I’m kinda out of business for the day . It’s now below 0 deg F and it will be cold tomorrow for afternoon walk .
This new hobby is very interesting. My younger son is building a couple big Rc warbirds so I’m helping him by phone . It nice that he has taken up a hobby besides his business even his kids are interested in model gliders. He plays town baseball so we went to the batting cage while he was visiting their season starts shortly so he wants to be ready I miss not playing myself and playing ball with him .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 17, 2022)

I just watched a couple videos of operating steam engines. They were puffing vapor and a slurry of messy oil out the exhaust stacks. I can see why there is talk of a condenser to gather this mess.
So what if one were to have say a stainless steel tube from the steam dome that would be carting very humid “ steam” and make a coil of several turns that would be heate by an induction heater in my case below th boiler to raise the temp and help vaporize this output then return it to the top of the boiler . I may be way off base here . This wouldn’t be a super heater but a reheater to attempt to remove some moisture from the boiler output . The way connections are looking I think I could test this pretty easily if nothing else I could simply vent it to the surrounding air . My question is how does this flow or would I need a blower or pump the super heater I looked at today all had some check valves in the circuits .  I’m just honking it might flow from cool to hotter because of the extra heat input. It’s something I may try as I have everting I need as far as hardware . I think I’m still not understanding this I’ve seen the lab demos where the super heated steam lights a match and burn paper . 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 17, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just watched a couple videos of operating steam engines. They were puffing vapor and a slurry of messy oil out the exhaust stacks. I can see why there is talk of a condenser to gather this mess.
> So what if one were to have say a stainless steel tube from the steam dome that would be carting very humid “ steam” and make a coil of several turns that would be heate by an induction heater in my case below th boiler to raise the temp and help vaporize this output then return it to the top of the boiler . I may be way off base here . This wouldn’t be a super heater but a reheater to attempt to remove some moisture from the boiler output . The way connections are looking I think I could test this pretty easily if nothing else I could simply vent it to the surrounding air . My question is how does this flow or would I need a blower or pump the super heater I looked at today all had some check valves in the circuits .  I’m just honking it might flow from cool to hotter because of the extra heat input. It’s something I may try as I have everting I need as far as hardware . I think I’m still not understanding this I’ve seen the lab demos where the super heated steam lights a match and burn paper .
> byron


Once again this spell check is destroying my text.


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## Bentwings (Feb 18, 2022)

I was wondering how to use the lubricator on air I have a standard airline lubricator but question whether it puts enough oil in the line especially if lower flow is used. I have a throttle valve for the engines so I can use line pressure to it . Thanks. 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 18, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I was wondering how to use the lubricator on air I have a standard airline lubricator but question whether it puts enough oil in the line especially if lower flow is used. I have a throttle valve for the engines so I can use line pressure to it . Thanks.
> byron


I have to go through my box of parts I think I ordered a lubricator if not I’ll get one I just got the 1/4 40 TPI me tap and die so I’ll be able to install ne easily. I even have some steam oil I should probably get a little more . Just so I have enough . After seeing the slobbery message on the internet yesterday I’ll be sure to have a drain bucket . I also ordered a book that has steam properties and lots of calculations so I hope I can converse a bit better. I read quite a detailed discussion about steam check valves mostly related to super heating  I didn’t see any model equivalents. I realy don’t want to get into all that if I don’t have to most model systems are just hook it up and run it . But I surely see need for something to catch steam exhaust. Air operation seems much cleaner as far as exhaust. I’m all set to start assembly as soon as I get the small metric tap set. Should be here late today . It’s cold and 45 mph blowing wind and snow so it will be a nasty walk up to the mail box. 
byron


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## Vietti (Feb 18, 2022)

Though I see you have abandoned superheaters, this may not be useful but may be a consideration for future builds.  My 7 1/2 inch locomotive has radiant superheaters meaning the superheater tubes come all the way back thru the fire box and return at the back of the fire box above the door.  In the boiler they are, of course, inside a large exhaust flu.  The superheater tubes are stainless.  In the fire box the tubes are exposed to the full heat of the fire near the top of the fire box.

Years ago there was quite a discussion on whether superheaters were effective at model scale.  I don't think either side prevailed.  IIRCC full size superheaters only upped the thermal efficiency a percent or two but when you only have 12% efficiency to start with that looks pretty good!


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## Bentwings (Feb 18, 2022)

I really haven’t abandoned super heaters yet. I’ve been looking at how commercial boilers work and possibly applying some technology . They all use some intricate valves that I don’t realy understand yet. There aren’t any model size valves like these. Pm research has some check valves.I’ll do more investigating  I don’t necessarily need automatic valves . I just need a better understanding why valves are used. I haven’t really seen any model steam systems that used these small valves . Also I don’t now the construction. I may just break down and purchase one just to examine what it is made of.  My current thought is to build a small independent boiler that is capable of handling much higher temp and pressures and add a super heat section to my boiler that would feed it .  I can get gages so if I know either pressure or temp I can read the other from a chart that I have ordered . So far unless I’ve completely missed something I have not seen a model using super heat only RR locos possibly . There are. Few in the area but I don’t have contact with them. I have seen several condenser systems that I’m assuming collect the gooy exhaust mess and store it for later disposal. I can build something like these condensers. I had actually thought about it early on. I was planning on a better exhaust manifold that would have been directed to the condenser . I have two turbines and may get a third so they may require super heat to get torque output. I just have not gone that far yet . I can see some issues already so I’m looking into them too.  This all looks so easy. Having played many sports most of my life I should know that nothing is as easy as it looks.LOL 

ITS NASTY WINDY AND COLD BUT I YHINK ILL RUN UP TO THE MAIL BOX AND SEE IF MY TAPS CAME  they are my stall thing right now  once I get that fixed I can start the real work .
Later 
Byron


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## kaolsen1728 (Feb 19, 2022)

You should get a little of the steam oil mixed with the exhaust as this is what lubricates the valves and pistons. Keep in mind that super heated steam is also dry steam. Wet steam that results without super heaters will provide some lubrication, but do not run the engine dry of the steam oil or you will need to soon re-hone the cylinder and possibly replace the piston rings. I always get a little oil on my face after running my steam operated 7 1/2 gauge Pacific.


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## Bentwings (Feb 19, 2022)

kaolsen1728 said:


> You should get a little of the steam oil mixed with the exhaust as this is what lubricates the valves and pistons. Keep in mind that super heated steam is also dry steam. Wet steam that results without super heaters will provide some lubrication, but do not run the engine dry of the steam oil or you will need to soon re-hone the cylinder and possibly replace the piston rings. I always get a little oil on my face after running my steam operated 7 1/2 gauge Pacific.


Ok I’m getting a better handle on this  I have an oiler and steam oil I also found PM Research has quarts bottles too so I can easily get what I need. So far what I’ve ordered from them I received in a few days .  So I’ve come up with a couple ways to get super heated or dry steam . I need something to act as a steam dome. I’m planning on just tipping the boiler slightly to form a bubble at one end. Now one way would be to just add a 3/4” vertical pipe here and take  my output to the engines out of this stack. There are induction heaters often used to heat buts for easy removal my son has a snap on set that works great. The price doesn’t work for me however. So I looked around and found numerous similar heaters just like that. So it would seem that I could add an induction heater to the “ stack” and have dry superheated steam near the top. Then take my operating steam or there I could also add a relief valve in there too . Picking some numbers say 150 psi would give reasonable operating temp livable pressure and dry steam I could also lay this parallel to the boiler operating the same way. The engine exhaust steam would be directed to a condenser tank. It become apparent I need a supply tank too. By making this tank capable of pressurizing like an air tank only with water in it for the boiler I could  have a valve and pressurize the water tank to feed the main boiler , adjusting the main boiler pressure lower so it could accept water.  I derived this from looking at commercial boiler diagrams. They have a series of valves and gages so this process is more automatic I’ll stick with manual for now.  I center have some seamless steel tubing and I think there may be some seamless stainless there in the pile too.  This whole thing has evolved in to pretty complex thing. But it’s no where as complex as twin engine Rc airplanes or even scale warbirds I’ve built and flown many of them from scratch, not kits so I’m well aware of the complexities. I really appreciate help and comments.  Since I’ll be running in compressed air to start I’ll just use the small Milton quick disconnects but for steam I’ll need screw on connection. I don’t think the standard air line couplers will hold up long with steam or even boil water temp vapor in them. They leak bad enough as it is.
I see I just got an Amazon pkg. wonder what that is? 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 19, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Ok I’m getting a better handle on this  I have an oiler and steam oil I also found PM Research has quarts bottles too so I can easily get what I need. So far what I’ve ordered from them I received in a few days .  So I’ve come up with a couple ways to get super heated or dry steam . I need something to act as a steam dome. I’m planning on just tipping the boiler slightly to form a bubble at one end. Now one way would be to just add a 3/4” vertical pipe here and take  my output to the engines out of this stack. There are induction heaters often used to heat buts for easy removal my son has a snap on set that works great. The price doesn’t work for me however. So I looked around and found numerous similar heaters just like that. So it would seem that I could add an induction heater to the “ stack” and have dry superheated steam near the top. Then take my operating steam or there I could also add a relief valve in there too . Picking some numbers say 150 psi would give reasonable operating temp livable pressure and dry steam I could also lay this parallel to the boiler operating the same way. The engine exhaust steam would be directed to a condenser tank. It become apparent I need a supply tank too. By making this tank capable of pressurizing like an air tank only with water in it for the boiler I could  have a valve and pressurize the water tank to feed the main boiler , adjusting the main boiler pressure lower so it could accept water.  I derived this from looking at commercial boiler diagrams. They have a series of valves and gages so this process is more automatic I’ll stick with manual for now.  I center have some seamless steel tubing and I think there may be some seamless stainless there in the pile too.  This whole thing has evolved in to pretty complex thing. But it’s no where as complex as twin engine Rc airplanes or even scale warbirds I’ve built and flown many of them from scratch, not kits so I’m well aware of the complexities. I really appreciate help and comments.  Since I’ll be running in compressed air to start I’ll just use the small Milton quick disconnects but for steam I’ll need screw on connection. I don’t think the standard air line couplers will hold up long with steam or even boil water temp vapor in them. They leak bad enough as it is.
> I see I just got an Amazon pkg. wonder what that is?
> byron


I missed the first post. I can handle a little mess especially if I make a better manifold than the supplied one. Yes I’ll not run dry on live steam. 
thanks
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 19, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I missed the first post. I can handle a little mess especially if I make a better manifold than the supplied one. Yes I’ll not run dry on live steam.
> thanks
> Byron


After typing all this I looked up induction heaters on Amazon there are a number of suitable ones that offer customizable coils as well as blank coil wire. Something I forgot was just how much electrical power will I need?  Most of the heater kits seem to be 1k watts . That doesn’t sound like much considering I already have 22 hundred watts heating the water . . I’m thinking the steam is more like air now so I’ll just be adding energy into it . It’s not changing ste just getting a lot hotter. I have a book coming dealing with steam so I’m hoping I can self educate and get better understanding of what is going on here.


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## Steamchick (Feb 20, 2022)

Hi Byro, You have "crossed the river..". When you understand that steam is NOT just boiled water, but H2O as a gas, you are getting there. (Not sure how you did, but this is correct: "the steam is more like air now so I’ll just be adding energy into it  ").
Water is boiler in the boiler and in the large space above the water you have wet steam: a mix of water spray, droplets, aerosol, whatever, and steam at EA+XACTLY the same temperature of the water. It is called WET because ANY loss of pressure or energy  - after the steam has left the boiler - will result in MORE droplets of water condensing as the latent heat is used to compensate for the loss of pressure: Even a 1psi drop down the feed pipe is enough! - and more pressure drop through the throttle valve.... The the steam enters the valve chest - with further expansion and loss of pressure, then whistles past the valve into the cylinder - Wow! MORE loss of pressure - so the steam entering the cylinder has lost latent heat all the way getting to where we want it to do work. So now, all that hot water and steam is expanded in the cylinder (as the work is extracted to move metal) and the ensuing water droplets and remaining steam (Hopefully only a small fraction of what we stuffed into the cylinder) are discharged out of the exhaust. 
- Now if the steam has had MORE Heat given to it after the spray and droplets from the boiler have been left behind - in the boiler where we want them to stay, courtesy of the steam dome -  then this "Superheat" - meaning the correct use of the adjective Super to be "Above, beyond"  - becomes the energy stored in the steam "Above" the boiling point of latent heat conversion of the change of state. So the external heater you plan for this is correct - except you DO NOT RETURN this to the boiler, but take the superheated steam to the engine.
Actually, many model superheaters do not release pure steam into the engine, because of "transmission losses getting the steam to the engine. Most static models I see at shows, etc, have bright shiny steam pipe in COLD air, without any lagging, so the steam is drastically cooled before it gets to the engine. I CRINGE! But MOST locos have superheaters that are long tubes from smoke box to firebox and returning in parallel to the smoke box before entering the engine. GOOD. This is how they do it on full sized locos, so these are correct models. But Thermodynamically, the firebox may be 400C or more... and the smoke box much cooler, say 200 degrees C or whatever, so the returning loop of the superheater tube (with steam at 400C) cools in the cooling smoke so it gets to the engine not much above the 200degrees of the smoke box! Yet still with some superheat when it gets to the engine. Long boilers have smoke that is cooled almost to the temperature of the "wet" steam by the time they get to the smoke box, and adiabatic expansion as they leave the tubes and enter the firebox - with the vacuum in the firebox from the forced draught - cause the firebox to be much cooler than desirable for the superheated steam pipes!
However, in the model boiler we cheat - the way full-sized static boilers do - by taking superheated steam from the hottest point of the superheat path and then directly take that to the engine. 
For my vertical boiler, this means taking the steam out of the dome, down the flue to the firebox, then sideways straight out to the engine. On my horizontal boiler, and on simple commercial tank boilers for the cheapest models (e.g. Mamod), with a fire beneath, these take the steam from the dome and down to the firebox, and have a simple loop of pipe inside the fire zone. This superheated (DRY) steam then goes to the engine. My only problem, is that the superheater pipe exiting the firebox is usually TOO HOT and chars the cotton string I use to insulate the steam pipe. I have to find something else that can stand over 200C! (or let that bit of pipe cool the steam a bit so the rest of the lagging doesn't char! - I need to find glass-fibre string!). Therefore I have superheat on everything I make, so the engines run better. (More power in the steam that can be converted to moving metal).
Superheat also raises the pressure of the steam (NO NEED for a pressure relief valve on superheater pipework. Just use something that can take the higher temperature and pressure!), and when in the engine it allows expansion in the passages so only steam enters the cylinder. This steam expands as the piston motion extracts heat, until it has cooled to the condensing temperature, when the latent heat starts to be used and water droplets (vapour) appear. Then when expelled from the exhaust the WET steam expands more showing the plume of water vapour after the expansion has lost all the latent heat. It is nice to see a little gap of clear steam expelled before the water vapour plume starts - just like on a good kettle! This shows that you have more than enough superheat to keep the engine "dry" inside. So you can give the engine more overlap to use more steam energy and be more efficient!
Just a word on caution. Hot water (over 60C) and vapour can scald "a little" ("Scald" means "to burn the flesh with boiling liquid or steam: "). But real (Clear, invisible) STEAM will take flesh off your arm quicker than you can yell as loud as you can! (I have seen the scars on others!). This won't grow back! so NEVER stick a finger (or any other living flesh) in the CLEAR part of water vapour. I NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN ANY PLUME, as it is often hotter than expected and hurts.
Cheers!
K2


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## Steamchick (Feb 20, 2022)

Hi (Again) Byron.
Now I realise you are still getting stuff together, but BEFORE you ever generate steam, you must understand how to destroy a reciprocating steam engine, so you can avoid doing that to your expensive model. This does not apply to running on air, but does apply to running on STEAM.
I have even seen "mechanics" and "so called engineers" - without prior knowledge or training, do this on TV - on a restoration project - AND DIDN'T know what they had done.

Steam pumped into a cold engine makes 100% water as it condenses in cold valve chests and cylinders.
AT "TDC" a cylinder has very little volume
Condensate (water and oil mix in a cold engine) is incompressible.
Blow a lot of steam into a cold engine, it will turn maybe 2 or 3 times then "BANG" - it will stop dead.
You will turn off the steam supply, then try and turn the engine, and after a bit of a twiddle, it will turn (or not, depending on what has been bent or broken!).
What has happened: The steam has made a lot of water very quickly inside the cold metal of the engine. This water, partly in the valve chest and partly in the cylinder, has increased in volume rapidly until there is more in the cylinder than the free space at TDC. Then you have generated an hydraulic lock!. The engine stops DEAD. Often it bends a con-rod, or blows a seal at the end of the cylinder, etc.
TO AVOID an hydraulic lock... you MUST pre-warm the engine as below to get the engine hot enough to run on steam safely - EVERY time you start it up. (The clouds of steam on locos EVERY time they leave the station!).

When you have some pressure showing on the boiler pressure gauge, open the steam valve (REGULATOR) a little, to permit the smallest amount of steam to run to your model. This will also help overheating of superheater tubes.
Immediately start turning the engine slowly and carefully the correct running direction. You will quickly hear some gurgling and sputtering as the water (condensate) is pumped through the engine, as it starts to warm-up. 
Continue until gurgling and sputtering is reduced a lot and some water vapour is coming from the exhaust: AND the engine "feels" like it wants to run itself.
Carefully open the steam feed valve REGULATOR a bit more to permit enough steam to start running the engine slowly. 
When there is NO MORE gurgling and sputtering, you can open the regulator wider to bring the engine up to speed.
When you reach running speed, and the boiler has reached an adequate pressure, switch on any load (generator, etc?). and adjust the steam with the regulator as the pressure varies, to maintain the speed you want.
To Stop the engine, just shut off the regulator completely. I then turn the engine by hand (BAR the engine) a few turns to ensure any water is expelled. Also to feel for any loose bearings, etc. that may have developed.
During running, make sure all linkages and bearings have their adequate lubrication. You'll soon learn how much and how frequently you need to do the "fireman's duties: 

CHECKING water level and boiler pressure, 
FEEDWATER supply, 
Lubrication, and 
Manage the "fire" to maintain a steady boiler working pressure WITHOUT THE SAFETY VALVE BLOWING OFF! (That is BAD management of the boiler and fire!).
DO NOT LEAVE A STEAMING BOILER UNATTENDED - EVER! - I have seen boilers that cost £2~5000 that have self destructed (joints failed) because someone left them unattended "just for a moment" - enough for them to drop the water level a tiny amount below the minimum, and cook the top of the firebox to total failure of a joint.
(Lazy people use compressed air, as it can be left to run without being watched).
Enjoy!
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 20, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> After typing all this I looked up induction heaters on Amazon there are a number of suitable ones that offer customizable coils as well as blank coil wire. Something I forgot was just how much electrical power will I need?  Most of the heater kits seem to be 1k watts . That doesn’t sound like much considering I already have 22 hundred watts heating the water . . I’m thinking the steam is more like air now so I’ll just be adding energy into it . It’s not changing ste just getting a lot hotter. I have a book coming dealing with steam so I’m hoping I can self educate and get better understanding of what is going on here.


I just read an interesting article on steam oil by railroad tools in Cincinnati, Ohio

It talks about properties and history . They cater to modelers big and small so you don’t have to buy 5 gal pail of oil .


Steamchick said:


> Hi Byro, You have "crossed the river..". When you understand that steam is NOT just boiled water, but H2O as a gas, you are getting there. (Not sure how you did, but this is correct: "the steam is more like air now so I’ll just be adding energy into it  ").
> Water is boiler in the boiler and in the large space above the water you have wet steam: a mix of water spray, droplets, aerosol, whatever, and steam at EA+XACTLY the same temperature of the water. It is called WET because ANY loss of pressure or energy  - after the steam has left the boiler - will result in MORE droplets of water condensing as the latent heat is used to compensate for the loss of pressure: Even a 1psi drop down the feed pipe is enough! - and more pressure drop through the throttle valve.... The the steam enters the valve chest - with further expansion and loss of pressure, then whistles past the valve into the cylinder - Wow! MORE loss of pressure - so the steam entering the cylinder has lost latent heat all the way getting to where we want it to do work. So now, all that hot water and steam is expanded in the cylinder (as the work is extracted to move metal) and the ensuing water droplets and remaining steam (Hopefully only a small fraction of what we stuffed into the cylinder) are discharged out of the exhaust.
> - Now if the steam has had MORE Heat given to it after the spray and droplets from the boiler have been left behind - in the boiler where we want them to stay, courtesy of the steam dome -  then this "Superheat" - meaning the correct use of the adjective Super to be "Above, beyond"  - becomes the energy stored in the steam "Above" the boiling point of latent heat conversion of the change of state. So the external heater you plan for this is correct - except you DO NOT RETURN this to the boiler, but take the superheated steam to the engine.
> Actually, many model superheaters do not release pure steam into the engine, because of "transmission losses getting the steam to the engine. Most static models I see at shows, etc, have bright shiny steam pipe in COLD air, without any lagging, so the steam is drastically cooled before it gets to the engine. I CRINGE! But MOST locos have superheaters that are long tubes from smoke box to firebox and returning in parallel to the smoke box before entering the engine. GOOD. This is how they do it on full sized locos, so these are correct models. But Thermodynamically, the firebox may be 400C or more... and the smoke box much cooler, say 200 degrees C or whatever, so the returning loop of the superheater tube (with steam at 400C) cools in the cooling smoke so it gets to the engine not much above the 200degrees of the smoke box! Yet still with some superheat when it gets to the engine. Long boilers have smoke that is cooled almost to the temperature of the "wet" steam by the time they get to the smoke box, and adiabatic expansion as they leave the tubes and enter the firebox - with the vacuum in the firebox from the forced draught - cause the firebox to be much cooler than desirable for the superheated steam pipes!
> ...


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## Bentwings (Feb 20, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I just read an interesting article on steam oil by railroad tools in Cincinnati, Ohio
> 
> It talks about properties and history . They cater to modelers big and small so you don’t have to buy 5 gal pail of oil .


my initial thought was to sort of skim the vapor from the dome and dehumifybit. But the concept of boiling point of water cannot change. Without increasing pressure . It just took awhile for this to sink in . I could simply raise the boiler pressure but for now I’d rather not do that. I think the heated steam tank will be better. I’m planning on taking advantage of the extra hot steam energy and effective volume to be enough to run my engines. It will be interesting o see how this plays out . I have a book on steam properties and calculations coming shortly so I’m hoping to learn more as I go . Steam is like refrigeration in reverse. I’ve done some automotive sc work so I’m somewhat aware of change of state and volume changes. I just don’t have the math  yet.   I just got the engine frames screwed down to the mounting plates tomorrow I’ll alight the crankshaft bores and start official assembly . I’m hoping to take a few pictures as assembly takes place. There are about 200 pieces with all the nuts and screws . Tapping m 3 holes in the mounting plates with a near foot long tap handle without breaking the tap was a real challenge being visually impaired didn’t help . As I was apprenticing in the machine shop the old navy guy my mentor would say there is no excuse for breaking a tap f you know what you are doing so start learning kid. LOL. 
byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 21, 2022)

Make a short tap wrench for better control, feel, and subsequent joy when you don't  break any taps. A simple one from 2 off 1/4" square bars, and 2 screws to clamp them to the tap works well on titchy little taps.
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 21, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Make a short tap wrench for better control, feel, and subsequent joy when you don't  break any taps. A simple one from 2 off 1/4" square bars, and 2 screws to clamp them to the tap works well on titchy little taps.
> K2


I received a new short tap tool late yesterday.  You make me feel like a professor of steam with your praise thank you!  
I realized some insulation ofvthe delivery pipe was required so I looked in my favorite supplier site McMaster Carr. Yes they have a number of fiberglass insulating sleeves that will work. There is even a split type so you can go around joints . It’s also pretty inexpensive. Actually we use this in ou streetrods around headers to keep heat in the pipes and away from other car parts. I’m now thinking of making s more efficient intake and exhaust manifolds. I’m going to make another voyage into the weld shop and see if I can press the envelope of my vision dong some precision welding or brazing . I can get 1/4” copper elbows and we have a nice bender used for stainless steel brake lines so I make longer runs and-neater connections. I don’t like pie fitting connections . I’m used to making flanges and slip fit exhaust systems.
I’m viewing his super heating as a way to “ super charge” the steam engine without the blower supercharger. I’ll be able to have variable @ boost at the turn of a valve.
Yes I’m well aware of the dangers of hot steam . Scares me to death . I’ve even given thought to enclosing my operation in a poly carb cover .
Now my question is how do I calculate the energy available in super heated steam I found a nice chart showing pressure and temperatures so if I know one I get the other. This new book I’m getting should have some of he math I think. I’m pretty sure by testing I’ll be able to plot approximate run times at temp or pressure . I just got a nice Ashcroft pressure gage and fittings to make siphon tube. 
I mounted the engine frame yesterday but I made a mistake using particle board. While nice and flat I does not take the thread inserts well . I need some super glue to hold them in. This creates issue as super glue wil invariably get into the thread inserts. Then I’ll have to run a tap into them .
I have not tried using Wd40 on the threaded part so I’ll try that today. 
we are supposed to get a foot of snow and blizzard conditions later today so I think I’ll walk up to the auto parts store and get some super glue so I can continue assembly not looking forward to shoveling snow.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 21, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I received a new short tap tool late yesterday.  You make me feel like a professor of steam with your praise thank you!
> I realized some insulation ofvthe delivery pipe was required so I looked in my favorite supplier site McMaster Carr. Yes they have a number of fiberglass insulating sleeves that will work. There is even a split type so you can go around joints . It’s also pretty inexpensive. Actually we use this in ou streetrods around headers to keep heat in the pipes and away from other car parts. I’m now thinking of making s more efficient intake and exhaust manifolds. I’m going to make another voyage into the weld shop and see if I can press the envelope of my vision dong some precision welding or brazing . I can get 1/4” copper elbows and we have a nice bender used for stainless steel brake lines so I make longer runs and-neater connections. I don’t like pie fitting connections . I’m used to making flanges and slip fit exhaust systems.
> I’m viewing his super heating as a way to “ super charge” the steam engine without the blower supercharger. I’ll be able to have variable @ boost at the turn of a valve.
> Yes I’m well aware of the dangers of hot steam . Scares me to death . I’ve even given thought to enclosing my operation in a poly carb cover .
> ...


In continuing development of this system I see need for at lease 3 check valves maybe a fourth. So I’ve looked around but have not found a bolt in or on one that I can use. Soooooo. That means make our own. A little sketching I came up with using fine thread UNF. Coupling nuts commonly called high nuts as they are much extended nuts along with some matching set screws and nuts. I can use a center drill to drill a seat for a single ball bearing then drill through . McMaster has balls and springs so it’s a matter of getting the right combinations. Also UNF thread happens to be the same as AN fitting threads so our pressure tester for the racer will work to see what ever pressure is desired . Similar valves are used on the racer. Often spacers of various sizes are used to set pressures but in this case I’ll be able to just screw in the long set screw ans secure it with jamb but there are adaptor for what ever thread I need to hook to pressure vessels all parts are available in stainless steel or brass. Stainless is only about 4 times as much cost wise . LOL THIS WILL MAKECTHE OPTIONAL MANUAL Valve easier too. It’s nice when solution can be derived in orderly fashion.
I’m looking at the assembly drawing and I see a bolt on flange for the intake and exhaust tubes. So maybe the headers as intake manifold might not be as complicated as I thought . I’m going to order some 1/4” elbows and 45 deg elbows. I’m no thinking I may need a small fixture to fish mouth these for brazing . Oh yes silicone bronze brazing rod is now barky priceless. I have a miniature propane torch that was supposed to be for soldering but is way too hot for that so if I can fixture this I may b able to do this at home. I also dug out a fish tank water pump so I could rig up a heat sink. Small copper stuff like this gets hot fast and stays hot . I’ve used heat sinks to make model exhaust in the past. I think there is some 1/4” aluminum fuel line in the scrap box so this could work nicely.  Next up is to test whether Wd40 will prevent super glue from sticking never tried that but I now have need.  Byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 21, 2022)

Hi Byron, most people typically use a nice bit of teak, beech or mahogany for their mounting boards. Proper "Engineering" wood, not dust held together by formica.....
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 21, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron, most people typically use a nice bit of teak, beech or mahogany for their mounting boards. Proper "Engineering" wood, not dust held together by formica.....
> K2


actually this is just temporary.
M planning on a scale  laminated oak display floor similar to the old textile mill floors. It will be glossy smooth resin coated.  Since there are two engines the crankshafts have to line up each crank spins perfectly in its frame but the cranks have to line up too. I have a ground steel line up bar but there are 8 main bearing to line up. I’m within about .001 now but there still is a tight spot . A piece of paper is too much and a piece of aluminum foil is not enough. If I can get a icee of lasting wrap to lay flat I think it will be just right.
In view of all the issues I’m already having , I’m sorry I didn’t start out with the tooling plate I originally planned. I’ve been fighting the new short tap wrench all afternoon. I don’t know where it came from but it’s the worst piece of junk I’ve had in a long time the closing ring feels like it’s got sand in it. I managed to sand it smoother but it still barely holds the tap. I have to use a pliers  just to get it tight enough to hold the M3 tap


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## Bentwings (Feb 22, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> actually this is just temporary.
> M planning on a scale  laminated oak display floor similar to the old textile mill floors. It will be glossy smooth resin coated.  Since there are two engines the crankshafts have to line up each crank spins perfectly in its frame but the cranks have to line up too. I have a ground steel line up bar but there are 8 main bearing to line up. I’m within about .001 now but there still is a tight spot . A piece of paper is too much and a piece of aluminum foil is not enough. If I can get a icee of lasting wrap to lay flat I think it will be just right.
> In view of all the issues I’m already having , I’m sorry I didn’t start out with the tooling plate I originally planned. I’ve been fighting the new short tap wrench all afternoon. I don’t know where it came from but it’s the worst piece of junk I’ve had in a long time the closing ring feels like it’s got sand in it. I managed to sand it smoother but it still barely holds the tap. I have to use a pliers  just to get it tight enough to hold the M3 tap


I’m just getting ready to take pictures I may try a short video it be a first for me so don’t expect much . I’m going to lay in the crankshafts and connecting flywheel . I lost my high temp sealer so I’m going to have to walk up to the auto parts store it’s blizzard conditions and cold.
Here is another thought along the super heater road. As long as I’m goingvto be stuck using the air compressor . If I can make the super heater add on why not run the air from the compressor through it? The air will go through a filter dryer so it will be less humid than boiler vapor. Aft all it’s just air being heated so energy added.  I have to give more though to this. I can see some minor changes required . Basically go to given pressure with relief valve protection . It’s still very hot air. I would treat it like steam and use steam oil in the lubricator. It has a drain so it would be easy to drain a little. Being carefull of course the lubricator would function as normal. I just would not use the standard air line lubricator . Any thoughts? 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 22, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I’m just getting ready to take pictures I may try a short video it be a first for me so don’t expect much . I’m going to lay in the crankshafts and connecting flywheel . I lost my high temp sealer so I’m going to have to walk up to the auto parts store it’s blizzard conditions and cold.
> Here is another thought along the super heater road. As long as I’m goingvto be stuck using the air compressor . If I can make the super heater add on why not run the air from the compressor through it? The air will go through a filter dryer so it will be less humid than boiler vapor. Aft all it’s just air being heated so energy added.  I have to give more though to this. I can see some minor changes required . Basically go to given pressure with relief valve protection . It’s still very hot air. I would treat it like steam and use steam oil in the lubricator. It has a drain so it would be easy to drain a little. Being carefull of course the lubricator would function as normal. I just would not use the standard air line lubricator . Any thoughts?
> byron
> 
> ...


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## Bentwings (Feb 22, 2022)

lol




 hi























here are a few I tires, as you can see, there are bags of small parts. I replaced the grub screws in the flywheel with m3 she’s as I didn’t want to accidentally round one out. I’m not sure how to set the slide valve timing. It looks like from the assembly drawing and instructions you just set the pistons at bottom dead center the set the slide pistons at either bottom or top dead center of their eccentric. I’ll have to examin that more when I really get into assembly tomorrow. I have to go out and shovel in the morning. The wind is down but the snow piled up on the walkway. I’ll try and push it out in the street as they are going to plow about 9 am. Even if I get a path to the street it will be a big help.  The kids are out of school. You would think they would be asking to shovel for extra money but nothing . 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 23, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> View attachment 134433
> View attachment 134434
> View attachment 134433
> View attachment 134434
> ...


As you can see there a lot of parts here there really isn’t a step by step assemble instruction there are two nice assembly drawings that itemize every part. Then on line is ans assembly instruction page but it’s a bit sketchy. The main thing missing is timing the piston slide valve and engine to engine to engine timing. This is done by tightening a grub screw in the flywheel and piston valve eccentric. I’ve changed the grub set screws to m3 shcs as I just don’t want to have a damaged grub screw. There is considerable stick out but o far I don’t see an issue. Next I think I like to put a flat spot on the cranks where the grub screws do in just so it will be easier to service if necessary . I’m going to assemble the piston valve assembly fas then test the timing . The cranks are identical but the end shafts are longer on one end than the other. This allows full engagement2 or I’ve selected the right engine being #2  into the flywheel by each crank with the #2 crank over hanging some. It will carry the extra fly wheel as well as be supported by my new shaft support . This is just to prevent excess end loading of the crank. The #1 or left engine doesn’t need this as the enginge bearings will be closer together . I may need to remount te left engine so this happens. There is supposed to be a base that locates the engines exactly but that was missing from the parts. It’s realy only needed to space the engines apart correctly . It would have been nice if there was a numeric value here so I would have not needed to guess at it . I can see I’ll need to remount the left engine . While not too difficult it means drilling and inserting thread insert into th base wood. I have a whole box of various sizes so not a problem but it also means I’ll have to drill oversized clearance holes fo the frame mounting screws. Sounds easy but the screws are long m3 so I have to remove them spot and drill then reinsert . I don’t have a power driver that small  so I’ll just have to struggle along .  I now see the intake and exhaust ports and lack of teal  manifolding. I’ve already given some though to this . I don’t know if headers or more streamlined system will help but it sure will look better . The existing systems will be right angle snd tee fittings both horribly inefficient and double ugly in my mind. But I’ll have to get a lot further into assembly before I get into that part. Today I have a good foot of snow to shovel and it’s barely above 0 deg F . I’m going to play for a few minutes the I must go outside.
Byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 24, 2022)

Byron,
You need some lead on the valve eccentrics. (A bit like lead and advanced ignition on IC engines). This means the exhaust closes before the piston gets to the end of the stroke, providing a little cushion to decelerate the piston, and increase bearing life. Then the inlet is open just about at end of stroke - opening onto the tiny volume of residual compressed exhaust steam - then as the pressure rises it drives the piston at the start of the power stroke. BUT if the inlet opens before "end-of-stroke", you risk stopping the engine and reversing the direction of motion! So a little "suck-it-and-see" if you do not have settings from the engine supplier.
K2


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## Steamchick (Feb 24, 2022)

Byron, for running on compressed air.... I see no real gain in heating the air and using steam oil, that couldn't be achieved easier by opening the air regulator to admit a bit higher pressure? - But I have not done the sums... Have you?
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 24, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Byron,
> You need some lead on the valve eccentrics. (A bit like lead and advanced ignition on IC engines). This means the exhaust closes before the piston gets to the end of the stroke, providing a little cushion to decelerate the piston, and increase bearing life. Then the inlet is open just about at end of stroke - opening onto the tiny volume of residual compressed exhaust steam - then as the pressure rises it drives the piston at the start of the power stroke. BUT if the inlet opens before "end-of-stroke", you risk stopping the engine and reversing the direction of motion! So a little "suck-it-and-see" if you do not have settings from the engine supplier.
> K2


Thanks that’s exactly what I expected. I’m just working on the eccentrics and life valves today. There is a huge amount of small parts and screws involved . I did send a note to chilertern last night as the instructions are very vague. They did not the reverse issue but not where are how critical the exact position is. There are set screws, grub screws on the eccentrics.  I could possibly make a tiny degree wheel and more precision set the timing but I don’t have any data other than trial and error . I may have to pier it up to derive this. My guess is the port block openings were not done with max performance built in, more that looks about right. I thin RR enginges have an adjustable timing linkag. I see some engines with this featur too but the linkage would be beyond micro sizes for my engines. At least the basics are sort of adjustable. I yhnkni may exploit the mini degree wheel idea. Ion my note I also asks about putting flats on the crankshafts for the set screws so the cranks don’t get messed p. By usin the degree wheel I could mount the cranks in the chuck on the rotary table and use a #2 center drill to spot the dents exactly  I can see a long test and tune session coming up. My steam theory book won’t be her for another week . But I did some advanced searching and found some of the info I was looking for . Temp is always noted in deg kelvan temp usually in deg C  and pressures in pascal so I’m realy going to be busy with conversions. I’m having enough trouble with metric threads as it is LOL  ALSO FUND INFO ON HOW AND WHEN STEAM becomes coorosive to some material as you noted earlier. It also dissolves snd deposits various salts and other impurities at various temps and pressures.  I had no idea steam was this complex.  It also applies to my superheated dry air I noted earlier. So I have additional thinking t do . All this for a 5?pound pair of model steam engines. LOL  A 50 puns Rc model twin engine bomber is about on the same level. It’s like going back to engineering school  

well I did get most of the snow shoveling done yesterday . It’s now -10 deg F with a high of about 0 today so I’ll have to go out and finish the other side but later in the afternoon noon  this mandatory exercise is killing my hobby time
Buron


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## Bentwings (Feb 24, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Thanks that’s exactly what I expected. I’m just working on the eccentrics and life valves today. There is a huge amount of small parts and screws involved . I did send a note to chilertern last night as the instructions are very vague. They did not the reverse issue but not where are how critical the exact position is. There are set screws, grub screws on the eccentrics.  I could possibly make a tiny degree wheel and more precision set the timing but I don’t have any data other than trial and error . I may have to pier it up to derive this. My guess is the port block openings were not done with max performance built in, more that looks about right. I thin RR enginges have an adjustable timing linkag. I see some engines with this featur too but the linkage would be beyond micro sizes for my engines. At least the basics are sort of adjustable. I yhnkni may exploit the mini degree wheel idea. Ion my note I also asks about putting flats on the crankshafts for the set screws so the cranks don’t get messed p. By usin the degree wheel I could mount the cranks in the chuck on the rotary table and use a #2 center drill to spot the dents exactly  I can see a long test and tune session coming up. My steam theory book won’t be her for another week . But I did some advanced searching and found some of the info I was looking for . Temp is always noted in deg kelvan temp usually in deg C  and pressures in pascal so I’m realy going to be busy with conversions. I’m having enough trouble with metric threads as it is LOL  ALSO FUND INFO ON HOW AND WHEN STEAM becomes coorosive to some material as you noted earlier. It also dissolves snd deposits various salts and other impurities at various temps and pressures.  I had no idea steam was this complex.  It also applies to my superheated dry air I noted earlier. So I have additional thinking t do . All this for a 5?pound pair of model steam engines. LOL  A 50 puns Rc model twin engine bomber is about on the same level. It’s like going back to engineering school
> 
> well I did get most of the snow shoveling done yesterday . It’s now -10 deg F with a high of about 0 today so I’ll have to go out and finish the other side but later in the afternoon noon  this mandatory exercise is killing my hobby time
> Buron


so now it follows that some measure of performance is necessary. I’m not going to build a dyno yet. But I have an extra steel flywheel that I don’t really care if it gets scuffed a bit. I could rig a temporary print brake of sorts and measure torque at given rpms since I have an accurat tach.  It would be nice to be able to vary the apply pressure but I gave all my model air cylinders and valves to my son for his Rc planes maybe I could do a spring apply and just add weights as needed or vary the apply pressure.  Of course I’ll need some kind o cake and given length arms. Not a big dal just something else to make  I’ll probably hear something later today. Since I have updated my phone I could call tomorrow. Mean time I’ll get some assembly done today 
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 24, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> so now it follows that some measure of performance is necessary. I’m not going to build a dyno yet. But I have an extra steel flywheel that I don’t really care if it gets scuffed a bit. I could rig a temporary print brake of sorts and measure torque at given rpms since I have an accurat tach.  It would be nice to be able to vary the apply pressure but I gave all my model air cylinders and valves to my son for his Rc planes maybe I could do a spring apply and just add weights as needed or vary the apply pressure.  Of course I’ll need some kind o cake and given length arms. Not a big dal just something else to make  I’ll probably hear something later today. Since I have updated my phone I could call tomorrow. Mean time I’ll get some assembly done today
> Byron


Spell check did it again. I meant print brake system I know it’s primitive but at least I’ll have some measure of performance to go by  I doubt if there was much along this line in the engine design. It’s well done but but the instructions just say position the eccentrics as shown in the picture. Not a good picture to begin with. There is no real reference point the fit ofvthe parts is very close so maybe I can get away with  the duck and test method. They do note reverse if not careful . I don’t incision running at high speed. I can see some extra pressure for more power if needed. The intake and exhaust ports are incredibly primitive . Not even Henry ford’s flat head was this poor. I’m looking into much more streamlined manifolds. I need a collector for he 4 1/4” tubes but I’m looking into a simple small press fixture to form the collector joint. Almost identical to standard automotive stuff. It’s just easier to form the copper tubes there is a flange mount  so I may just order some replacements so I don’t have to do fancy machine work . They actually bolt on similar to automotive I don’t think porting will be worth the effort since pressure like supercharging is available. If I was after max speed maybe but just getting intake and exhaust flow will be enough. I’m moving my work area today so production is temporarily down . I got my lighted magnifying light working so I can see these micro parts. Also ordered set of driver Allen wrenches that I really needed.  In the kit is a spanned wrench for m2 and m 3 nuts. It’s the smallest open end wrench I’ve ever seen 

byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 24, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Spell check did it again. I meant print brake system I know it’s primitive but at least I’ll have some measure of performance to go by  I doubt if there was much along this line in the engine design. It’s well done but but the instructions just say position the eccentrics as shown in the picture. Not a good picture to begin with. There is no real reference point the fit ofvthe parts is very close so maybe I can get away with  the duck and test method. They do note reverse if not careful . I don’t incision running at high speed. I can see some extra pressure for more power if needed. The intake and exhaust ports are incredibly primitive . Not even Henry ford’s flat head was this poor. I’m looking into much more streamlined manifolds. I need a collector for he 4 1/4” tubes but I’m looking into a simple small press fixture to form the collector joint. Almost identical to standard automotive stuff. It’s just easier to form the copper tubes there is a flange mount  so I may just order some replacements so I don’t have to do fancy machine work . They actually bolt on similar to automotive I don’t think porting will be worth the effort since pressure like supercharging is available. If I was after max speed maybe but just getting intake and exhaust flow will be enough. I’m moving my work area today so production is temporarily down . I got my lighted magnifying light working so I can see these micro parts. Also ordered set of driver Allen wrenches that I really needed.  In the kit is a spanned wrench for m2 and m 3 nuts. It’s the smallest open end wrench I’ve ever seen
> 
> byron


It did it again 

PRONY BRAKE


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## Bentwings (Feb 25, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> View attachment 134433
> View attachment 134434
> View attachment 134433
> View attachment 134434
> ...


Well I finally got the foot of snow shoved out so I spent e better part of the day assembling my steamer . I first filled a syringe with air tool oil so I had lube ready then using my new found cordless drill and the smallest number drill I drilled the opening in the lock tire tube. Blue. Then began assembling the slide valve connecting rods and the eccentrics. The eccentrics have a counter bore on each side. With a filler plate insert in one of them . The clearance is very tight and easy to raise a burr if you try to force things thes plates are held on by m3 flat head screws about 4-6 mm long 2 in each plate the crankshaft goes through the locating hole the whole assembly is only about 6 mm long in the 6 mm bore so fit is very close. I admire how well these parts are machined finish is superb well I was down to th last of the 4 assemblies and realized I was missing one of the flat head screws. I thought I be ordering a big bag of them as nobody has anything like this. Not even the Rc car hobby shop. I wa cussing my self out for being careless. I got up to get snort cup of coffee and felt a sharp sting in my bare foot. There the screw was on the floor. I couldn’t believe how it got there and how lucky I was to find it. So I continued. I got one plate cocked in the bore and the crank would not go through it . It took over an hour to figure out where the burr was and to fix it but som 2500 grit paper finally fixed it . Then I assembled the eccentric assemblies on the cranks. That was another issue as there is not a clear picture on the assembly drawings. But I zoomed in on the picture on the web site and figured it out. Then getting the cranks laid in the bearing was an issue. Th bearing halves are not located except by the screw threads. The holes are very tight tolerance so I guess they will be ok . I got both cranks installed. One has a minor tight spot but it will either wear in or I may be able to adjust it once everything else is in place.  Then my kitty jumped on the table and left some kitty hat floating around . I was getting ready to install the steam jackets and slide valve pistons when on got stuck yup kitty hair in the bore. That’s how tight the clearances are  here is a picture of progress . Every thing is working so far except for one very small tight spot . It right where the tight spot was with the line up bar too. It looks like I’m going to have to move one engine over some to reduce spacing between . There is no note on the drawing s but there is a spacer plate I did not receive that controls the distance between the engines . I sent an e mail but have not receive response yet. I may call Monday if I don’t get anything over the eeek end . It probably not too critical as long as the cranks don’t butt against each other’s. There is no note about the valve timing either either than make it like the picture on the website and that if too far off it will run in reverse . No not of correct direction either  I have a reversing valve anyway .  Those m 3 grub screws are so small I can hardly see them with my magnifying glass. I already replaced the flywheel ones with socket head screws. I’m going to try and replace the eccentric ones too it looks like there will be clearance for the heads . Once I get the timing figured out I may take the cranks out and eithe drill pots on the cranks or mill flats for the screws t land on so the bores don’t get marred up z there must be another 50 or more screws to put in then the operating connections and boiler can be fitted . By then I should have my steam properties book so I can start fine tuning the advanced stuff.


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## Bentwings (Feb 25, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> Well I finally got the foot of snow shoved out so I spent e better part of the day assembling my steamer . I first filled a syringe with air tool oil so I had lube ready then using my new found cordless drill and the smallest number drill I drilled the opening in the lock tire tube. Blue. Then began assembling the slide valve connecting rods and the eccentrics. The eccentrics have a counter bore on each side. With a filler plate insert in one of them . The clearance is very tight and easy to raise a burr if you try to force things thes plates are held on by m3 flat head screws about 4-6 mm long 2 in each plate the crankshaft goes through the locating hole the whole assembly is only about 6 mm long in the 6 mm bore so fit is very close. I admire how well these parts are machined finish is superb well I was down to th last of the 4 assemblies and realized I was missing one of the flat head screws. I thought I be ordering a big bag of them as nobody has anything like this. Not even the Rc car hobby shop. I wa cussing my self out for being careless. I got up to get snort cup of coffee and felt a sharp sting in my bare foot. There the screw was on the floor. I couldn’t believe how it got there and how lucky I was to find it. So I continued. I got one plate cocked in the bore and the crank would not go through it . It took over an hour to figure out where the burr was and to fix it but som 2500 grit paper finally fixed it . Then I assembled the eccentric assemblies on the cranks. That was another issue as there is not a clear picture on the assembly drawings. But I zoomed in on the picture on the web site and figured it out. Then getting the cranks laid in the bearing was an issue. Th bearing halves are not located except by the screw threads. The holes are very tight tolerance so I guess they will be ok . I got both cranks installed. One has a minor tight spot but it will either wear in or I may be able to adjust it once everything else is in place.  Then my kitty jumped on the table and left some kitty hat floating around . I was getting ready to install the steam jackets and slide valve pistons when on got stuck yup kitty hair in the bore. That’s how tight the clearances are  here is a picture of progress . Every thing is working so far except for one very small tight spot . It right where the tight spot was with the line up bar too. It looks like I’m going to have to move one engine over some to reduce spacing between . There is no note on the drawing s but there is a spacer plate I did not receive that controls the distance between the engines . I sent an e mail but have not receive response yet. I may call Monday if I don’t get anything over the eeek end . It probably not too critical as long as the cranks don’t butt against each other’s. There is no note about the valve timing either either than make it like the picture on the website and that if too far off it will run in reverse . No not of correct direction either  I have a reversing valve anyway .  Those m 3 grub screws are so small I can hardly see them with my magnifying glass. I already replaced the flywheel ones with socket head screws. I’m going to try and replace the eccentric ones too it looks like there will be clearance for the heads . Once I get the timing figured out I may take the cranks out and eithe drill pots on the cranks or mill flats for the screws t land on so the bores don’t get marred up z there must be another 50 or more screws to put in then the operating connections and boiler can be fitted . By then I should have my steam properties book so I can start fine tuning the advanced stuff. View attachment 134508


To answer the question on the “ super heated air”  I’m really lacking lacking real steam information I have a highly technical book coming that I intend to study so I can be more informed and make more logical decisions Again it’s part of this hobby. My thought was to heat the compressor air thus increasing its energy as well as useful volume I have not done much calculating. I’ve looked at some tables and i think this is a viable thing exactly how it will work in specifics will have to be proven out. I’m looking into building a smaller high pressure super heat vessel I’ll be using 4130 seamless steel  with at least 1/8” wall material . I’ve done lots of TIG welding of this it’s going to be up to how good my own retraining of my handicap pans out I have a very good friend who I get along well with even if we have difference of opinion we both can critique each others’ work good or bad and it purely from technical view. Workmanship is judged good or bad and no hard feelings. There are few friendships like this. It’s very valuable to be in agreement or disagreement yet respectful ull so I’m comfortable if he says it’s ok or scrap it . I know I’ll get an honest opinion . I’ll also hydraulic test the device for absolute safety. As well as all connections  I don’t really know what to expect. I’m looking forward to learning both from you all and from the text book. The steam things are hundreds of years old so I’m sure well  proven. I’ve done some fluid dynamics so it won’t be totally new as there are many principles common to both. I won’t be using astronomical pressures or temps. Mainly I just want to experiment with an idea of the . results. As I punted out earlier this started with my lack of understanding thatwhat comes out of a simple boiler is hot snd very humid air steam is the invisible layer below in order to get rid of that it’s necessary to raise pressure by temp to some level and prevent cooling then condensation before use in the engine  it wasn’t long before RR added super heat, recovering lost energy and reducing condensation many other things happened along the way that others have punted out to me. I’ve changed things as a result. Sorry for the long wind. 
byron


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## Steamchick (Feb 26, 2022)

Just a clarification. STEAM is the invisible stuff before it partly condenses with expansion, pressure drop and cooling to form the white, visible clouds. The _Clear_ steam is 100% gasified H2O. No liquid water at all. This is the "gas" that comes from the superheater, that will cook flesh instantly, as it contains such a lot of energy (heat).
K2


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## Bentwings (Feb 26, 2022)

I like your response. I actually plan on hydraulic testing at considerably higher pressures. I had not considered the time element so I’ll add that in too.thanks I didn’t get much out of the local inspection when I called as a hobbyist as long as I was not using fuel in a confined area they really just wanted to get on with other things . Nice. Ask for help and just get dusted off.
Besides all the other feathers I’ve ruffled up . I have anew question . With a little perseverance I think I can nearly complete basic assembly today . The piston slide valve timing is the issue. I like the comparison to ignition timing. Unfortunately I don’t have a timing light or accurate TDC OR BDC locations . There is nothing realy on the assembly instructions 
But looking at things I think a reasonably accurate length or position … from to thing might be the best way for now. 
so do you think a nylon set screw socket head cap screw would hold the slid valve eccentric well enough to establish some measurement of moving parts? My reason is I just don’t want to scar up the crankshaft. I’ll not run Uber much pressure. Just enough to get the engines to turn over I’m going to make a drill fixture out of the extra flywheel. So I’ll then be able to more accurately drill a spot on the cranks. 
byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 26, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> To answer the question on the “ super heated air”  I’m really lacking lacking real steam information I have a highly technical book coming that I intend to study so I can be more informed and make more logical decisions Again it’s part of this hobby. My thought was to heat the compressor air thus increasing its energy as well as useful volume I have not done much calculating. I’ve looked at some tables and i think this is a viable thing exactly how it will work in specifics will have to be proven out. I’m looking into building a smaller high pressure super heat vessel I’ll be using 4130 seamless steel  with at least 1/8” wall material . I’ve done lots of TIG welding of this it’s going to be up to how good my own retraining of my handicap pans out I have a very good friend who I get along well with even if we have difference of opinion we both can critique each others’ work good or bad and it purely from technical view. Workmanship is judged good or bad and no hard feelings. There are few friendships like this. It’s very valuable to be in agreement or disagreement yet respectful ull so I’m comfortable if he says it’s ok or scrap it . I know I’ll get an honest opinion . I’ll also hydraulic test the device for absolute safety. As well as all connections  I don’t really know what to expect. I’m looking forward to learning both from you all and from the text book. The steam things are hundreds of years old so I’m sure well  proven. I’ve done some fluid dynamics so it won’t be totally new as there are many principles common to both. I won’t be using astronomical pressures or temps. Mainly I just want to experiment with an idea of the . results. As I punted out earlier this started with my lack of understanding thatwhat comes out of a simple boiler is hot snd very humid air steam is the invisible layer below in order to get rid of that it’s necessary to raise pressure by temp to some level and prevent cooling then condensation before use in the engine  it wasn’t long before RR added super heat, recovering lost energy and reducing condensation many other things happened along the way that others have punted out to me. I’ve changed things as a result. Sorry for the long wind.
> byron


There was a question asked a while ago about welding the boiler. 
my boiler is aluminum . I had considered steel but4130 tube the size I was considering just was not available. 
now even TIG welding aluminum softens or annuals the aluminum so it would have seriously compromised the boiler. I had a catch tank explode right next to me in a race car in the shop the tank was well made an nicely welded. Pat on back. It exploded so violently it ripped the metal outside of all welds. Everything came apart. It was returned to kit form as we say. This was a fuel air explosion not just pressure of boiler or compressor I’ve never seen anything like it . I blew about a two square foot hole in the Fiberglas body right next to where I was sitting it was a crankcase vent tank. Apparently a stuckintake valve allowed fuel air mix to be blown back into the tank. Then the stuck valve caused the push rod to gall up the socket in the rocker arm it got red hot igniting the fuel air in the connection tube to the tank which unloaded itself pretty scary it’s a good idea not to be close to running race cars that use nitromethane for fuel there was no fire that I saw just parts flying all over and a deafening noise . So this in mind I decided not to weld the aluminum . My eyesight is not good but I’ve been practicing welding the tablet lines and I’m getting to where I can follow them even around corners and curves. I honestly don’t know how this is working in real life but I’ll soon find out . I know the procedure and I’m redeveloping the eye hand coordination . I can’t even describe how I’m doing this some times having the drive to do something is what is needed. 
hours in the batting cage allowed me to hit one of the few out of the park home runs in senior baseball . How I could still throw strikes yet hardly be able to see the plate is beyond me even the coach couldn’t believe it when I tried out. So I’m going to give welded steel a try. 4130 is easy steel to weld. It’s hard to mess it up unless seriously over heated. My new lighted magnifying glass may help . We will see .
Byron


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## Bentwings (Feb 27, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> It’s good to know that one has over designed something thanks  I’m really new here so I appreciate any comments. I’m pretty excited as the engine kit is supposed to arrive Friday I just got the new boiler tube and gave my son he big chunk of aluminum to start making chips. The hardest part is not being able to dig in myself. I just spend money and gather parts. LOL I’ve yet to have a hobby that didn’t require this. Baseball it was hard to keep up with bat tech even wood bats are now super tech. Bam boo being the latest. Bam boo is an incredibly strong wood. Laminated with carbon fiber make a nearly un breakable bat.  A $30 bat now costs $300. You need 3 of them . Why? You can only use one at a time?  It’s come to. Need a base hit? Extra base hit? Or home run? Bat for each condition  the issue is can you hit the ball in the first place ? Real  good hitter has only 40% chance of A base hit let alone a long ball. We don’t get paid one dime to play senior ball . We bough our own equipment, including uniforms and yearly season charges. Almost as expensive as racing cars or building streetrods  I’ve now got a whole season of steam toys already.
> I feel for European fuel costs we think $ 4 gas is terrible it was effectively more than that 30 years ago when I visited Europe on business.  Just having a car to get around was considered a luxury.  I laughed at riding bikes everywhere was common. Guess what? Next summer I’ll be riding bike for shopping I can’t do on this keyboard.  It won’t be funny at all I have a Streetrod but I’m not supposed to drive  doc didn’t say anything about using bike. I’m just supposed to get daily exercise. Should I live to see another winter I just found studded bike tires even mini chains. Chains on a bike what’s this world coming to. ? Maybe I can use a drone for shopping. LOL
> Actually copper TIG weld very easy with electrical wire filler. This is very pure copper so you don’t have to put he expensive rod. The big issue is stripping insulation I’ve made quite a number of Rc model scale functioning exhausts using copper tube fittings I trim the excess material to save weight. Done with a small scale I can get near steel weight much easier than trying to bend steel tubing in tight radii. TIG also silicone brazed very easily too . For practical purposes it’s almost as strong as welded copper.  Either is a precision process that most welders don’t even want to try.  My new steamer is goingvto have both fabricated intake and exhaustz not really for efficiency but mostly just looks. Some will be stainless steel brake line because we have fitting tools necessary for connections ever silicone brazing stainless is pretty easy and very strong
> 
> ...


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## Bentwings (Feb 27, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> There was a question asked a while ago about welding the boiler.
> my boiler is aluminum . I had considered steel but4130 tube the size I was considering just was not available.
> now even TIG welding aluminum softens or annuals the aluminum so it would have seriously compromised the boiler. I had a catch tank explode right next to me in a race car in the shop the tank was well made an nicely welded. Pat on back. It exploded so violently it ripped the metal outside of all welds. Everything came apart. It was returned to kit form as we say. This was a fuel air explosion not just pressure of boiler or compressor I’ve never seen anything like it . I blew about a two square foot hole in the Fiberglas body right next to where I was sitting it was a crankcase vent tank. Apparently a stuckintake valve allowed fuel air mix to be blown back into the tank. Then the stuck valve caused the push rod to gall up the socket in the rocker arm it got red hot igniting the fuel air in the connection tube to the tank which unloaded itself pretty scary it’s a good idea not to be close to running race cars that use nitromethane for fuel there was no fire that I saw just parts flying all over and a deafening noise . So this in mind I decided not to weld the aluminum . My eyesight is not good but I’ve been practicing welding the tablet lines and I’m getting to where I can follow them even around corners and curves. I honestly don’t know how this is working in real life but I’ll soon find out . I know the procedure and I’m redeveloping the eye hand coordination . I can’t even describe how I’m doing this some times having the drive to do something is what is needed.
> hours in the batting cage allowed me to hit one of the few out of the park home runs in senior baseball . How I could still throw strikes yet hardly be able to see the plate is beyond me even the coach couldn’t believe it when I tried out. So I’m going to give welded steel a try. 4130 is easy steel to weld. It’s hard to mess it up unless seriously over heated. My new lighted magnifying glass may help . We will see .
> Byron


I did not progress as far as I had planned yesterday as I ran into holes that I couldn’t get screws into some went in easy others just refused to start m 3 is pretty small stuff if you are vision limited. I have 3 m3 taps but I could not get either to start. I had my magnifying glass at full pier. I could see that the rap threads were trying to engage but just were being held up I didn’t want to cross thread or mess threads up. Finally I got one to start. I think dust or possibly pain got in the threads. Anyway I had to fiddle with the tap and got all me holes retapped there are a lot of them so a lot of Turing both ways . I didn’t take any metal out but the tap was dirty on every hole there was even some brass that had tight threads. So maybe I’ll have better results today. There are so many small screws and parts. It’s truly amazing the quality of machine work on this littl engine. Now I find I have to change the spacing between each engine. Fortunately I’ve allowed for this and it’s just a matter of unbolting the engines. I’ll make a drawing of the new bolt pattern so I can transfer it to the new mount plate . I have to go to a piece of ground tooling plat as it is dead flat. It cast aluminum and hard enough to tap larger holes but m3 are a real challenge I don’t have a clutch driver tunable for tiny m 3 taps so it’s hand twist all the way. This stuff doesn’t tap well en on larger sizes on a good day . More snow so I have to shovel a bit

byron


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## kaolsen1728 (Feb 27, 2022)

Is this a copper boiler or steel? Do not overstress the boiler when doing a hydrotest. ASME notes that the water should be at 70 deg F. Obviously it can be a little more than this, probably up to 100 deg. Then the pressure is raised slowly. Just like we do or should do when steaming up. If it is a steel boiler, 1 1/2 times the calculated maximum allowable pressure for the weakest component is to be used. If a copper boiler, I would not go much over 125 psi. If there is a bad joint, it will let you know. Once the boiler has been put into service, unless it has been modified and or repaired, there is no ASME requirement to hydro unless it has been modified and or repaired. However, on run days that you do steam up, check for any obvious signs of failure. The weakest component of a model boiler is the crown sheet. The problem here is that even a hydro on a cold boiler will show any problems. However, if the water while under steam gets below the crown sheet, the hot metal will loose its strength. The engineer will experience a lot of steam coming out of the firebox and firebox door. The boiler will be garbage! Be sure that the bottom of the sight glass is above the top of the crown sheet and test it prior every run. If you need any help on doing the calculations, let me know, I can help you do this. Ken Olsen


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## Bentwings (Feb 28, 2022)

The external superheater will be 4130 seamless steel tube 3/16 or 1/4” wall what ever I can get. This stuff is very tough  easy to weld not too har to machine I’ve worked a lot with it . Actually 1/8” wall would be enough but it would require bungs for threaded openings they are readily available  but a lot more work than drilling and tapping this is what axel hosing tube on race cars use I’m going to go to a friends shop where my TIG welder is located and see if I can still see well enough to weld quality welds. If not another friend can help me out . 
byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 9, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> The external superheater will be 4130 seamless steel tube 3/16 or 1/4” wall what ever I can get. This stuff is very tough  easy to weld not too har to machine I’ve worked a lot with it . Actually 1/8” wall would be enough but it would require bungs for threaded openings they are readily available  but a lot more work than drilling and tapping this is what axel hosing tube on race cars use I’m going to go to a friends shop where my TIG welder is located and see if I can still see well enough to weld quality welds. If not another friend can help me out .
> byron


im pretty sure I have all the stuff for pressure testing as we do this on some race car things too we have a pretty strong hydraulic pump. Most of what we have to test deals with fuels like alcohol and nitro. We don’t pressurize any directly but use water most of the time . Even some oils will detonate under pressure so water works best .  The only thing we use air on is tires. They go to about 6-7 psi so not dangerous even mounting we don’t need much air as they generally slip on with hand tools or tire machine 
I’m unclear on how a condenser can work inside the superheater tube I suspect that just having the inlet discharge near the top of the round tube would cause water vapor to condense out or be heated enough to become dry steam . Then there would need to be a drain or some sort . This is a bit confusing to me . I searching internet I did run across something like this but it was a very short more comment than how it works. I’m studying steam tables a bit each night to try and get a better handle in what is going on. .
Byron


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## HMEL (Mar 12, 2022)

Bentwings said:


> I received a new short tap tool late yesterday.  You make me feel like a professor of steam with your praise thank you!
> I realized some insulation ofvthe delivery pipe was required so I looked in my favorite supplier site McMaster Carr. Yes they have a number of fiberglass insulating sleeves that will work. There is even a split type so you can go around joints . It’s also pretty inexpensive. Actually we use this in ou streetrods around headers to keep heat in the pipes and away from other car parts. I’m now thinking of making s more efficient intake and exhaust manifolds. I’m going to make another voyage into the weld shop and see if I can press the envelope of my vision dong some precision welding or brazing . I can get 1/4” copper elbows and we have a nice bender used for stainless steel brake lines so I make longer runs and-neater connections. I don’t like pie fitting connections . I’m used to making flanges and slip fit exhaust systems.
> I’m viewing his super heating as a way to “ super charge” the steam engine without the blower supercharger. I’ll be able to have variable @ boost at the turn of a valve.
> Yes I’m well aware of the dangers of hot steam . Scares me to death . I’ve even given thought to enclosing my operation in a poly carb cover .
> ...


To calculate the energy in superheated steam you will use the tables for superheated steam the values will be in btus per lb mass or if you are using metric they will be given in metric units.  Select the pressure and choose the temperature the steam is at.  Saturated values will be in its own table.


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## Bentwings (Mar 12, 2022)

HMEL said:


> To calculate the energy in superheated steam you will use the tables for superheated steam the values will be in btus per lb mass or if you are using metric they will be given in metric units.  Select the pressure and choose the temperature the steam is at.  Saturated values will be in its own table.


Thank you very much. Now I can plot out some “ guesstimates” 
I ran into some assembly issues and got frustrated not being able to see tiny parts so I took a day off.  I received a small drill press from my son. It’s got an incredibly well fitting spindle . There is no real play at the chuck it runs very smooth especially for a small unit these are notoriously poorly built things I have to remount one enginge so I see how well I can locate the holes I even have a center to help guide the tap handle  I hav a metal baking sheet under the drill press to keep oil and chips where I can vacuum them . Hopefully I’ll have the couplings and shaft collars tomorrow . I’ll then be able to finish assembly . It’s goingvto be below 0 with winter storm watch tomorrow so another winter day.
Byron


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## Bentwings (Mar 26, 2022)

HMEL said:


> To calculate the energy in superheated steam you will use the tables for superheated steam the values will be in btus per lb mass or if you are using metric they will be given in metric units.  Select the pressure and choose the temperature the steam is at.  Saturated values will be in its own table.


well another interruption today home nurse came in scheduled visit. Righ in the middle of the day . 2 hours. 
So I went back to hobby room and continued on mill engine . I was missing one blind cap screw plug so I folded some copper wire cleaned it dipped in solder flux and soldered it into 1/4” 40 TPI me pipe I pole . It was ugly but the flap wheel grinder cleaned it up nicely I drilled out a 10 32 brass nut and tapped it 1/4” 40 ME AND IT FIT PERFECTLY . Screwed it in and I had air supply to number one engine after screwing around with timing like the instruction picture showed which did not work I managed to mar up the crank shag on both ends with the eccentric set screws skin grub screws that they are . I managed to get some semblance of timing in and it ran for about three minutes . Then stopped . Now what well it’s not locked up by dead stopped I started searching and it seemed that something was bottoming out closer looking and I saw the pistons stopping near the ends of the stroke . So let’s take a look well a couple minutes and I had the heads off then noticed the piston was stopping at or near bdc . I pushed the pistons out of the cylinders and blast it the piston screws are loose this is an m3 rod with only nuts on it the piston nut is barely in full depth of thread but now loose then I see the rod is also loose from the eccentric connecting rod. Well this means both cylinder and piston valve cylinders have to come off . Well it’s all apart now   I’ll have to see if I can smooth the crank and maybe grind a flat where the set screw lands . I got my shaft collar fix parts so I think I’ll try and see if that will work tomorrow. It only took about 25-30 psi to run the engine  other than scar up the crank no damage . My new ultra quiet compressor is very quiet too . So I’m happy about that  the time is 180 deg off from the instruction picture . I got a measurement of the piston valve position before I took it apart so I can at least get it running again pretty easily instead of all the fooling around I had to do. I knew that that was goingvto be an issue . I have another coupling coming tomorrow from McMaster Carr hopefully it will work. My son is making a special pair that he said he would bring over Sunday . I YHINK they will lock the eccentric in place better without damaging the crank any more . Every thing was turning over so smoothly too. 

Well tomorrow is another day 

Byron


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