# Made In China



## rake60 (Jul 12, 2008)

Most of us own at least one Sieg manufactured machine.
Their made in China and can be bought for 1/2 the cost of a 
domestic manufactured machine. 

Why? Because the labor rate to manufacture the machine is $14 a day
verses $17 an hour here. That same worker in the farming fields would be 
making $3 a day. That's a BIG step up!

It's easy for us to sit here in our air conditioned houses, bitching about the
cost of gasoline to feed our $20,000 vehicles, to judge those standards.

About 230 years ago the great empire of England was hoping a renegade 
group of colonists would starve to death for their ambitions.
They didn't....

Is it any different?

I hear bitches about human rights and environmental pollution from China factories.
When I was 10 years old I remember the news casts of lives lost that day in the
steel mills of Pittsburgh. I can remember going there to see a Pirates baseball game
when you couldn't see the city as you approached it.
The rivers ran orange with the discharge of slag from the steel mills.
It was known as the "Smoky City".

Times change and they always will.

Made in Japan at one time meant cheap and shoddy.
Today if you want the BEST for machining tools you buy Mitutoyo.
That isn't an Irish company is it?

I'm sorry for the rant.
I just get a little pissed off by the elitist attitudes I see sometimes.
Take a true look at you own grandfathers work conditions.
No, you don't even need to go that far back.
Consider your father's job.

Now tell me that a developing country has no right to develop into 
a world economy.

You'll never convince a people they or their products are inferior with
words. 

Anyone who wants to do some real China bashing in the machine tools 
area can find a lot of comrades in other home machining forums.
They have guys there that can REALY punch the keys on a computer
keyboard! They'll help you set the world straight!

When you can produce the same products at the same costs, come and
see ME! 

Hard working people producing products do not deserve to be treated or 
referred to as sub standard life forms.

Enough Said!

Sorry once again, sometimes I'm pressed too far and can't help but speak
my mind............

Rick


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## bentprop (Jul 13, 2008)

The constant"China bashing" that goes on at other forums is exactly why I gave up reading them.American/English/German isn't always best.Whatever you can afford,have space for,and is available to you is best.Chinese tools and tooling have developed rapidly,and I'm quite happy with the stuff I bought.Their pricing allows many people to enjoy a hobby they would otherwise never think about.


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## Circlip (Jul 13, 2008)

Not China bashing by any means Rick, but when members of the forum are complaining about the price of raw materials, theft of metals and then gleefully gloat about how cheaply they have bought tools/tooling from the various importers, How do they think they can afford them?? Sad fact is, although we don't want to admit it, (And I am talking ABOUT the UK) we "Civilised" Nations have become fat, lazy and overpaid, so it's best not to moan about the demise of our own manufacturing industries. We've all helped and are helping to achieve this.
Regards Ian


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## Bogstandard (Jul 13, 2008)

I have just spent a rather large amount on tooling, and every bit of it is either Chinese, Indian or other far eastern producer. Sorry, I did have a couple of eastern European chucks.

I could have opted for home produced items up to 10 times as much. The quality might have been slightly better, and would last a lifetime, if you were aged twenty. In my situation, I don't need it to last that long, so it pays me to buy the cheaper goods, if it last a few years, great, if it breaks, buy a new one, it will cost me a lot less in the long run.

Everyone says that the quality isn't there, how accurate do you need it to be? Most technical drawings come with a tolerance of about 0.002". I can get that using a hand drill. I know for a fact that I will easily be able to achieve it with far eastern imports. 

A few years ago, I would have said the same sort of thing Rick was on about, but having seen the progress they have made in such a short time, I have no qualms about going for all far eastern equipment.

I will tell you now, in ten years, the Chinese and other far eastern countries will be producing items that will be the envy of the world. They are willing to learn, unlike the western world, who think they can rest on their laurels and people will come to them to have things made, they are in for a big shock, and very soon.
Customers want a good, accurate and well made job. If they can get it done in the far east, most probably a lot cheaper and quicker, who do you think they are going to use.

John


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## shred (Jul 13, 2008)

Most anybody over 40 can remember when 'Made in Japan' carried the same kind of stigma too.... I remember as a kid getting cheap stamped metal toy cars to play with at the 5-&-dime store, and if you squinted up inside the wheelwells, you could see the original printing of the Japanese soup can or whatever leftover/recycled metal it was punched out of-- they only re-painted the outside.

Anyway, I see this forum as much more about what we do with our tools which ones we own. Each to his or her own there I say.. but I got my tools because they can make things, not just to have them.


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## zeusrekning (Jul 13, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> I hear bitches about human rights and from China factories.
> When I was 10 years old I remember the news casts of lives lost that day in the
> steel mills of Pittsburgh. I can remember going there to see a Pirates baseball game
> when you couldn't see the city as you approached it.
> ...



Rick we can only hope things may change. Just think where we would be now if we didn't have the system we have . What companies would get away with. I just don't think the situations are similar. I think it is more like the cotton industry in the south before slavery was abolished. 

I believe China works on a scorched earth policy and to not expect much if any improvement in there human rights or there environmental pollution . 

China's quality has and will continue to get better. I have no doubt they will surpass some of the US and Jap suppliers on quality. 
I have to buy Made In China tools because it is all I can afford. But it does not mean I have to agree with there countries political/ human rights/ environmental policies. 

It is history repeating itself yet again in my book. Look at the middle east. We needed oil. We found a group of camel riding Nomads in the middle east who had it and didn't want much for it. We ignored a lot about there way of life and humanitarian issues and helped the ally who had the best price at the time. Now where are we at? 

What will happen when we have pumped all of our money to the Middle and far east? We will have built the wealthiest and most dangerous empire with out much of a manufacturing infrastructure. So now we are building the worlds largest manufacturing infrastructure with questionable morals next door.
What are we in for?

I'll continue to buy Miss China's tools and will continue to ***** about it. There are the hits and the misses. I have gotten used to the work involved in getting a new tool to function. I did buy the grinder that Harbor Freight had on sale for $130 with the two green wheels. I was impressed with the quality and weight of the tool. So it will go down as a definite hit. If I could afford it I would like to say I would not buy Chinese product but I have to. Maybe one day though


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## Andy_B (Jul 13, 2008)

I think that before we knock developing countries we should review our own USA history from about 1885 until 1930. We had child labor, rough necks on assembly lines handing out physical abuse to ensure production quotas were met and imports of cheap labor to build railroads. 

No one complained when the textile mills built in the New England states devastated the textile industry in the United Kingdom. Nor did the southern states complain when the textile industry moved south to take advantage of cheaper labor and less transportation cost on raw materials.

Mine safety in the coal mines was none existant during this time and many lives were lost so that the fuels necessary to fire the industrial revolution were available.

It took years of struggle to achieve advances in the war for human rights and fair pay. In some areas this has still not been achieved and the struggle continues. In other areas, fair pay has been achieved and the greed factor has been introduced into the picture. Is it really fair that someone is paid $65,000. a year for tightening a nut on the bumper of a car rolling down an assembly line or that new hires are not permitted because it would reduce overtime for the current crews?Compare this to teachers salaries. Those people who we intrust with the education of our children. No answers, only questions!

We are emerging into a world economy where "that's good enough" is not going to be good enough. Better will not be better than the best as some would have us believe. Words are not a marketable commodity unless you are an author. What can you contribute and produce will determine this country's destiny in the new world economy. IMHO this is applicable to all the countries of the world because the individuals collectively make the country.

This is just my view of our history at this point in time. I spent twenty two years of my life, willing to give my life, in defense of the Constitution of the USA. After all, that document gives each of us all the freedoms that we sometime take for granted.


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## zeusrekning (Jul 13, 2008)

Should we support a country that uses the cruel and unusual methods that we have ruled in humane because they are developing? Is one mans life and well being any different because of the soil he stands on. If we shouldn't have our sons and daughters sit under an operating multi ton press why is it excusable because the people doing it aren't our immediate neighbors. If China's practices were not in our financial favor right now I'm sure we would be raising hell about what goes on over there. 

The Turk that has his 14yo daughter killed by his 8yo son for sleeping with a boy is excusable to because we hanged girls as witches??? 

Our mistakes made through history have nothing to do with what was is going on in the present. If I had been around then I'd be bitching about the issues of the time


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## Cedge (Jul 13, 2008)

I'm seeing the potential for this thread to become explosive. Carefully consider your words before hitting the post button lest you become the primer that sets off a blast.

Before we shoulder the responsibility for harshly judging the practices of China, one should consider the reaction if china told us how we have to do things in our own sovereign countries. There would be a total sense of outrage that they had the arrogance to assume they have control over our affairs.

The reality is China is a country where the cheapest available commodity is not raw materials, but an inexpensive and easily replaced labor force. The recent post of the stamping press horror correctly commented that there are probably 10 people waiting to take their place. Their labor force is, for the first time since 1949 , seeing the opportunity to make a level of income that can be disposed of for personal benefit. In that context, there are probably 100 people standing in line to sit under that huge machine.

The 1st world workers enjoy protections these people can't even imagine, let alone implement. The $65,000 Detroit bumper bolter will become a distant memory as the Chinese continue to advance and modernize. It's a wee bit hypocritical for those of us who buy their products to deny them their turn a the wheel. After all ... our own companies and politicians opted for short term profits over long term viability. ....we gave the opportunity to the Chinese on a silver platter. I only wish our own leaders had been as astute as the Chinese leaders in seeing it for what it was.

The Chinese will never need to go to war with us. They'll only need to say a simple NO to our requests for replacement parts to maintain our much vaunted high tech weaponry.

Steve


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## zeusrekning (Jul 13, 2008)

Steve you are right. I wish I could say I have an idea that may work in regards to the Chinesees situation but I don't and that frankly scares me. All that I hope is that my children can have good lives and the older I get the more concerned I am with that.
Take it one year at a time and adjust right? 
If I piss someone off here I may have to start doing something and I don't want that  Steve I'd been one hell of a hippie in the 70's though. :big: :big: :big:
Tim


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## sparky961 (Jul 13, 2008)

Indeed, an explosive topic. Kudos to Rick for his original post, and to those who have posted their $0.02 (what's that in Yen?).

I think any half-intelligent person (and most people here are fully-intelligent) is able to see the current situation, as well as the looming future. My question to all of you is: what can we, as individual hard-working people, do to help ensure our countries' economical futures?

Personally, I believe that a big help with many of the problems today is to get away from the "bigger is better" attitude that's applied to stores and cities. There was a time when you could find everything you needed at your local small-town hardware or grocery store, and if there was something you _wanted_ that they didn't have, they'd special-order it in for you. The Sears catalogue (Canadian frame of reference here, probably US as well) still lives on today, although the range of available products is much narrower and your order most likely won't come by stage coach or steam train.

I'd like to see a return to small-town economics. Without the abundant supply of cheap (referring to price, not necessarily quality) Chinese goods for places for the big box stores (yeah, you know the ones that we ALL shop at), a door will be opened for more locally-produced goods.

Ordinarily, people refer to me as a pessimistic skeptic. Let it be known that I do have an optimistic side.

-Brian


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## Cedge (Jul 13, 2008)

Brian
It's really gotten to be a Catch-22. Once you step into the big box stores, you've walked out of the local economy, right into the global one. I patronize small and local businesses as much as possible, but the dirty truth is that we'd all be walking around naked and bare footed if we truly boycotted Chinese made products. 

It's not just machine tools. King cotton long ago abdicated his throne here in the southern US. Aside from a few small contract dieing and finishing houses, textiles died off quietly in the 1970's and 80's. Many of the very large companies I used to sell equipment too are now simply memories recalled over Brazilian or Colombian coffee.... at Starbucks instead of the local mom and pop cafe.

We've arrogantly regulated and legislated ourselves into a future that I fear will be nothing like the lives our parents enjoyed and hoped we'd prosper in. Like Tim, I often feel fear for the times ahead of my grandchildren. I don't see anyone taking their future freedom to succeed and prosper into any serious account. 

Tim.... maybe.... but the metal body protrusions and purple hair was a bit much, even for the most hip of the hippies....LOL. 

Steve


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## rake60 (Jul 13, 2008)

So are you ready for the auto market thing?

You had better be because the China imports are well on their way to a 
country near you! 

The *LIFAN Company* is very close to entering the US markets.
New cars priced $10,000 to $16,000
Will they sell? I'd have to believe they will.

They will be blamed for the demise of the big auto makers such as GM, who today 
needs to come up with $15 billion in new cash assets to avoid bankruptcy.

It's an interesting game that I'm sure will produce ANY winners...

I certainly don't know where it will end.
We want to earn big and buy cheap. Those two things just don't work together.

The politically incorrect team at Jib Jab made their best attempt at explaining it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI[/ame]

That makes TOO MUCH sense.
So who's to blame?

Rick


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## nemt (Jul 13, 2008)

So the whole issue is about quality, isn't it?
Some years ago, when I still was a mice little boy, I learned that quality is "Fitness for use". Once you agree with this English frase, the discussion is finished, because fitness for use means something else for every one!. I own a Korean lathe, called Ferm and is suitable for my purposes. My mill on the other hand is Austrian. Schaublin 13. Got more or less by accident. That is toolmakers quality.
But still, you can talk about quality for years and never agree with each other.
Same her in Holland, where the same discussion takes place.

But still nice to read how some people think about matters.

Nemt from holland.


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## sparky961 (Jul 13, 2008)

For me, it's much less about quality and so much more about (un)common sense.

While fitness for use, as Nemt aptly points out, is *the most* important quality for tools, I find it funny that many have been fooled into believing that flashy colours and aerodynamic molded plastic housings are indications of "quality".

This is one area where I believe Chinese (and other similar) imports have excelled. Most of them are a perfect demonstration of simplicity in design and quality where it's useful (eg. not requiring the diameter of a hand-knob to be within 0.0001").

Looking back at some of the designs for old machinery within this continent, you can see this simplicity in form and function. Aren't things like this marketable anymore? Does everything have to have a built-in IPod docking station to sell?

-Brian


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## CrewCab (Jul 13, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> The politically incorrect team at Jib Jab made their best attempt at explaining it.



Blimey Rick, that Video clip is far too "frighteningly" close to the truth imho 

CC


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## Circlip (Jul 14, 2008)

Where do you get close from CC ? This IS whats happened/happening, enjoy your 4X while you can, cos the fuel "crisis" ain't going to change much, Gordon has no control, Except Tax, and he isn't going to relinquish that.
 Quality? Not much with the Taiwan label on it anymore, but we went through exactly the same questions. We got used to using the imported sand, but the metal quality took a while to improve, original castings were SOOOOO soft,you only had to look at it for it to bend, and LOTS of us remember the first essential change? Fit a PROPPER electric motor.
 Simplicity in design? Bit of a retro statement, the rest of us have proved how wrong we can get it by "Tarting" it up. How many "Third world" countries have kick started their car manufacturing industries by producing an up to date Model T ?
 Not sure whether a quality or simplicity issue, take your pick, Gear train issue on mini mills? ? Plastic gear saga? ?
 It's not all doom and gloom though, at this point in time in the good old GB, increasing numbers of pensioners are being allowed/forced back to work to teach the "Would you like fries with that sir? generation how to fit a plug, it not only passes on knowledge but also allows the oldies to have a tolerable standard of living providing you don't earn TOO much.
 Hey, isn't this where we came in ? ( Round about the 1900's)
 Regards Ian


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## CrewCab (Jul 14, 2008)

Circlip  said:
			
		

> Where do you get close from CC ? This IS whats happened/happening,



Too true Ian, I was just endeavouring to grasp at the last fragments of the "Rose" coloured tint on my specs ..... but it now seems to have faded completely ??? 

It's been coming for the last 12 months or more to be fair but imho in the the last two months the acceleration seems exponential, most likely fuelled by the news reports every time you turn on the Radio or TV ........... I mean, for Gawd's sake, the dam press seem to be doing their dammdest to talk us into recession :wall:  instead of trying to help ....... then again, helping isn't in their nature is it  

About 4 weeks ago we had roughly 3 - 4 months work on our order books, which is pretty fair, but recently most of the phone calls and emails have been "Sorry but due to ................. etc" ......... now I'm scratching about looking for work for next week 

Oh well, could be I take a break and go visit the job centre ............ that'll be a first after 40 years working my backside off. ???

CC


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## Bogstandard (Jul 14, 2008)

You can always come and work for me Dave, the pay isn't much, just continuous coffee and bacon butts.

But it will save you from picking up trolleys on supermarket car parks, only to be promoted two years later to the 'basket only' aisles in the checkouts. Methinks a six inch nail in the forehead is a better end to a working career.
I hate going to these places for just that reason, seeing previously highly skilled men and women turned into chimpanzees. The people in my area used to make the best cars and locomotive rolling stock in the world, now they are reduced to piling tin cans on shelves. 

What a price to pay for 'progress'

John


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## CrewCab (Jul 14, 2008)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> You can always come and work for me Dave, the pay isn't much, just continuous coffee and bacon butts.



 ;D ............. how could I refuse such a generous offer  ........... hopefully we'll scrape through but if not, be warned, I have a very large coffee cup 8)

 CC


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## Kludge (Aug 20, 2008)

My next lathe will be a Sieg C0. The fact that it's made in China and that it has to be touched up a bit aren't factors. It's small and I like small. I guess the closest I have to it is my Taig but the C0 will do things the Taig won't and, if I can breath on the C0 just right, I may sell off the Taig in favor of the C0.

I looked at Lifan's offerings and was disappointed. No Jeep equivalents. I think only Mitsubishi makes one and they're not an export item. I may have to order a Toyota-powered M-38A1 copy made in the Philippines. Cost? Roughly one month's pension check. (Plus shipping but I think I can get a really good break on that.) Quality? Better than the original and, for a slight fee, they'll make the coachwork from stainless steel. Why so cheap? Because my pension check is worth some 50,000 Philippine Pesos and that's a heck of a lot for them. 

So let's go back to the C0. I don't know what HF's markup is but let's assume that $100 (out of $279) goes to the company for each lathe. That's 685 Chinese Yuan (today's market, rounded to nearest whole) per machine. That's a lot in their economy. The other machines bring more, of course, so the factory is making much money which means they can pay the workers relatively well ... for the economy. Even better, they _listen_ to the buyers and fix things as they can. It takes a while but it does happen.

China will likely follow Japan's postwar model, make what they can and constantly work to improve to become a major player in the international market. The quality might not come up to Japan's or any of the other top contenders but they will be there and they will have an affect on the economy. And that's when things will get very interesting.

Just my opinion, of course, and worth at least half what you paid for it.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Loose nut (Aug 21, 2008)

Circlip  said:
			
		

> we "Civilised" Nations have become fat, lazy and overpaid,



You might be right but it beats being poor and hungry any day!


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## Lew Hartswick (Aug 21, 2008)

Isn't monday morning quarterbacking great?? 
  ...lew...


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## BobWarfield (Aug 22, 2008)

Countries, cultures, systems, and regions all have different strengths and weaknesses. No one owns supremacy everywhere. They may think they do, but it's fleeting. 

There is a natural evolution of things. First, it is new. It is hard to get. It is shiny and precious. Only Really Smart Creative People are first, and there are only so many of these around. Moreover, only Really Smart Creative People living in a system that believes in Small Businesses (we call that "entrepreneurialism") can produce anything new, hard to get, shiny, and precious.

There is huge profit in being first. Nobody else knows how to do it yet, so the first ones can make an inordinate profit from it. The companies, people, or other entities making the profit grow so fast and get so rich that they seldom invest enough in figuring out what the next shiny precious thing will be. Instead, they milk their cash cow and enjoy the good times. They focus on making their shiny precious thing cheaper and cheaper. They invent things like interchangeable parts, assembly lines, and time and motion studies to facilitate this. Because they are Really Smart Creative People.

Eventually there is not one more improvement the Really Smart Creative People can make to the shiny precious thing that makes it more valuable to very many people. In fact, in the quest for profit and milking the cash cow they typically have gone way up market and killed whatever down market solutions that were competitors. We are so proud of our Hardinge and Monarch lathes. We are so proud of our IBM computers. We are so proud of our Microsoft software.

Along comes the new generation. There are always hungry out there. Eventually the knowledge of how to make the shiny precious thing is no longer proprietary. In fact, in our quest to build Monarchs and Hardinges as cheaply as possible, we typically show the world how to build cheap lathes VERY cheaply that are better than the original cheap lathes we killed with our Monarchs and Hardinges. It doesn't occur to us anyone would want these cheap lathes because we sell Shiny Precious Things. We sell Monarchs and Hardinges.

Unfortunately, with no new features of interest, all that's left to compete on is price. And the cycle reverses. The market no longer needs Monarchs and Hardinges. Instead, they want pretty good lathes REALLY CHEAP. We call this commoditization. Once commoditization sets in, those with the cheapest resources benefit the most. They build something just good enough to wipe out the Shiny Precious Machines. And even though the Shiny Precious people are Really Smart And Creative, they never do seem to figure out what hit them. They shake their heads. Who would want a REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHE?

But there are always hungry people out there. So low and behold, in trying to understand what's better than a REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHE, someone Really Smart and Creative comes up with the idea that a Somewhat Expensive Lathe that is so Automated it can do the work of 10 REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHES might be the right idea. We call that one CNC because what I just did call it is way too long.  And lo' the market for manual lathes of any kind dries up in the "civilized" world and it is only in those markets where one can have 10 REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHES for less money than 1 CNC (because our workers are so cheap) that they prosper. And even there, certain products cannot be made by REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHES. Mostly those are Shiny Precious Things (like Stealth Bombers) that are being built in countries that have lots of Really Smart and Creative People who built those Shiny Precious things.

Life is good again. For a little while. But there are always hungry people. And by now, we've built so many CNC's that they're cash cows. And those who build REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD LATHES now know how to build REALLY CHEAP PRETTY GOOD CNC. 

The cycle continues.

What is next?

Well, commoditization requires scale. What if we had lots of little businesses able to produce lots of really unique Shiny Precious Things that only appealed to small audiences but that were impeccably and relatively cheaply made and sold using CNC, outsourced manufacturing, and cheap selling channels due to the Internet? Then, the really smart creative people that made CNC could once again be rewarded for being really smart and creative. And the big giant REALLY CHEAP factories wouldn't matter, because so many Really Smart and Creative people would create so many creative Shiny Precious Things that they could prosper again.

And that's what some are doing.

End of story.

LOL!  :big:


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## Circlip (Aug 22, 2008)

Really enjoyed that one Bob, :bow: FOMAL, but don't forget that globalization can only be effected by the minor modernization of mechanization by the use of the adoption of the english languagization (despite its bastardization) for industrialization to succeed. :big: :big: :big:

 Best Regards, Ian


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## tel (Aug 22, 2008)

Well put, Bob. Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.


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## Kludge (Aug 22, 2008)

Well done, Bob.

Of course, some of us love our old Widgets and won't change no matter how many Shiny Precious Things come around that can do the same things. All of my watchmaker's lathes were made in the first half (third?) of the 20th century and they're still good to .00005" precision using collets. I can't find anything that comes even close for what I can afford. I'd love to see someone do it but I doubt it'll ever happen - at least in my lifetime.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## baldrocker (Aug 22, 2008)

Damn! wish I'd said that Bob
Paul


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## BobWarfield (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words.

It was prompted by a study from one of the business schools I read on the demise of the US machine tool industry. The report's conclusion was fundamentally that the company owners, in many cases not the same generation that founded, were too focused on extracting cash and didn't bother to continue innovating.

Always a bad idea!

Meanwhile, the best part of these boards is there are a lot of Really Smart and Creative People making many Shiny Precious Things. Most go chuff chuff chuff and that's even better!

Cheers,

BW


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## dsquire (Aug 22, 2008)

Bob:

An excellent post. I have thought some of the same things a few times but could never have put it into words like you did. I guess it is the same old story, people can not learn by listening to others, they have to get burned themselves before they believe it.

Cheers

Don


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## rake60 (Aug 22, 2008)

Very real points Bob!

History will inevitably repeat it's self.
The cheap, shoddy and low quality good that came out of Japan in the 1960's
Have evolved into, well better quality than most other countries can produce.

Made in Japan was a joke.

Today Made in China is a joke but their quality is improving daily.

The Joke will continue....

Next in the "Better" countries bashing line come Korea.
Vietnam is right there in line behind them.

Isn't that great!
This can go on for years!
Only the names will change...

They will make everything we want cheaper then we can ourselves.
The average income family will buy those products.

The early ones will be junk, and people will ***** about being taken.
(Wait a minute, I need to referr to the history book.)
No problem I'm still right on line. 

When I was just a kid my Grandfather set me straight.
His exact words were:

_*"You are no better than any other person who's ever walked this earth, but
by God there is no other person who's ever walked this earth that in any 
better than you!"*_

I believe that, and see the demeaning of developing countries as going totally
against the belief.

Rick


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## shred (Aug 22, 2008)

Part of the trouble is that small companies that do well selling innovative shiny things become big companies selling less innovative shiny things because the really creative lot have either moved on somewhere else or moved up into positions where they don't get to make things much anymore...


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## BobWarfield (Aug 23, 2008)

shred  said:
			
		

> Part of the trouble is that small companies that do well selling innovative shiny things become big companies selling less innovative shiny things because the really creative lot have either moved on somewhere else or moved up into positions where they don't get to make things much anymore...



Indeed!

It takes a particular kind of culture to sustain ongoing innovation and scale that to a quite large organization. Silicon Valley High Tech companies (where I live and work) do a surprisingly lousy job of it in any particular company, and a surprisingly good job of it as a region with an ecosystem (aka Venture Capitalists + Startups + Entrepreneurs). 

A former boss used to say, "We have no monopoly on genius here." He meant that even though we were smart, we shouldn't be complacent as there are many more smart people outside our company. So it is with the rest of the world too.

It's actually a good thing, though it can be painful to be bested.

Cheers,

BW


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## Circlip (Aug 23, 2008)

> You might be right but it beats being poor and hungry any day!


 But It's coming to a store near to you.


> Well put, Bob. Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.


 Got it in one Tel.


> The average income family will buy those products.


 Only trouble is Rick, you're assuming a family income.
 The bottom line is that Joe public will ALWAYS chase the more product per buck,so why the surprise when there ain't no more bucks to be earned cos they're being earned by another economy. We should all help our fellow man, but at the end of the day, charity begins at home.
 Lets all join hands and have a group hug, and I'd love to "Hug" the guys over there who are making and profiting from counterfeit medicines. Not a parallel? ? ?
 Regards Ian.


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