# Micro English wheels and electric hammers



## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

Back when wolves were just getting used to mankind being part of the pack, I helped a gentleman restore one of his antique cars. While we worked, he let me try my hand at his English wheel. I wanted to take it home with me. He wouldn't let me no matter how much I grovelled and begged. In fact, he was most insistant that it stay right where it was. Anyway, I put that idea on hold and went back to my dollies & mini beating bags and other means of forming metal on a minimal budget (read as: broke a lot) - not all at the same time, of course.

So now, I'm working on really small stuff and keep going back to that wheel. I've never seen one small enough to be useful so I've been sketching one out in my head. Thus far, my mental sketch uses a 3-4" C-clamp for the frame. A flat upper roller can be made from 1" section of a roller from a torn down printer and attached through some magic to the fixed jaw. The round rollers would have to be made on a lathe (no biggie) from the same roller stock though I'm not sure about the radii to use. Anyway, the lower rollers would be attached to the moveable jaw with a temporary centering fork while it's being tightened.

Done right, this should work the same as a full sized English wheel but for Really Small Stuff. If no one's noticed that's a theme with me. 

The electric hammer idea came from some turn of the century electric rock drill patents I came across. The basics were pretty simple, a massive solenoid driving a shaft with masonry drill head on the end and enough of a return spring that got the shaft back just in time to get slammed again. I guess they were effective though a patent doesn't tell how much use anyone actually got out of it. 

Right off the top of my head, I can't think of a really practical use for such a device but it seems too cool a tool not to do something with on a slightly smaller scale and I figured it might be good for a conversation starter. There's nothing involved that should be awfully complex - solenoid, shaft (drill rod?), some way to switch the solenoid for single shot or repeated blows, bushings for the shaft, a return spring and something to put it all in. 

Any thoughts on either ... aside from "Don't give up your day job."?

Best regards,

Kludge


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## crankshafter (Aug 13, 2008)

Kludge  said:
			
		

> Back when wolves were just getting used to mankind being part of the pack, I helped a gentleman restore one of his antique cars. While we worked, he let me try my hand at his English wheel. I wanted to take it home with me. He wouldn't let me no matter how much I grovelled and begged. In fact, he was most insistant that it stay right where it was. Anyway, I put that idea on hold and went back to my dollies & mini beating bags and other means of forming metal on a minimal budget (read as: broke a lot) - not all at the same time, of course.
> 
> So now, I'm working on really small stuff and keep going back to that wheel. I've never seen one small enough to be useful so I've been sketching one out in my head. Thus far, my mental sketch uses a 3-4" C-clamp for the frame. A flat upper roller can be made from 1" section of a roller from a torn down printer and attached through some magic to the fixed jaw. The round rollers would have to be made on a lathe (no biggie) from the same roller stock though I'm not sure about the radii to use. Anyway, the lower rollers would be attached to the moveable jaw with a temporary centering fork while it's being tightened.
> 
> ...


Hi Kludge.
A small English Wheel is what I have dreamed of for years. It would have been a nice project making one  So if anybody have plans let us know 
CS


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## Bogstandard (Aug 13, 2008)

Hi Kludge,

On my periods of leave in the early 70's, I used to go around to a typical eccentric English inventors house, just to see what he was up to, and gather information. I would spend hours in his dingy little workshop.

Your bit about a solenoid operated hammer brought back memories of a thing he came up with. It was a self striking arc welding gun, that when in use wouldn't burn like a normal stick welder but a continual striking of an arc. Just touch the rod on and away you went. It welded very thin sheet to perfection, no blow holes at all. He used it to weld in new bottoms to rusted out bicycle carbide lamps.

Later it went onto the open market, but I think it was lost in time.
He actually gave me the prototype, a real lash up. I threw it away years ago, but I have remembered all the basic workings.

John


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> On my periods of leave in the early 70's, I used to go around to a typical eccentric English inventors house, just to see what he was up to, and gather information. I would spend hours in his dingy little workshop.



People like that have always fascinated me to the point of admiration. "Eccentric" is a good term but within that eccentricity is a genius that doesn't track with conventional thinking. In fact, they are often so far off the beaten path there is no name for where they are. But that's what makes them so cool - at least to me.



> It was a self striking arc welding gun, that when in use wouldn't burn like a normal stick welder but a continual striking of an arc. Just touch the rod on and away you went.



*drool*



> He actually gave me the prototype, a real lash up. I threw it away years ago, but I have remembered all the basic workings.



Which means, of course, that you could sketch it out with a basic description so poor sinners like me could make them for ourselves? 

*chuckling* ... he had a need and found a solution in the welder. I've got a solution but haven't quite figured out a need yet. I think we would have gotten along quite well.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

crankshafter  said:
			
		

> A small English Wheel is what I have dreamed of for years. It would have been a nice project making one  So if anybody have plans let us know



Oh, my. Between sorting tools, putting "10 pounds of tomatoes in a five pound bag" in reorganizing the shop, trying to figure out how I wound up with so many watchmaker's gravers, and having totally insane ideas which I mention here for everyone's amusement (read as: "Haven't they locked him up yet?"), I also kinda sorta promised myself I'd learn some basic CAD stuff so have downloaded my usual overkill of a half dozen freebie packages. Right now, eMachine Shop is winning as to basic simplicity but I've not tried them all. Yet. 

Presuming I actually manage to learn something other than how to make a crooked line, I hope to made a basic drawing of a shop-made one for consideration of those more in the know to punch holes in so I can improve it. 

Stay tuned!

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Bogstandard (Aug 13, 2008)

Kludge,

You should learn my cad package, the one that I used for the sketch below.

A few details as far as I can remember.

It ran between 40 and 60 amps on the arc welder.
He used to swear by rods made by a company called Quasiarc, in my opinion the worst rods ever made, but it just might have been the price that attracted him. I think the rods were either 3/32" or 1/8" diameter. And they were held in a thumbscrew collet on the nose.
The central core was insulated from the outer windings and when the rod was touched on to the earthed workpiece, it completed the circuit to the solenoid. 
With the solenoid energised, it pulled the core back, causing the arc to strike on the end of the rod. Because the circuit was then broken, the spring pushed the core forwards again, allowing the rod to make momentary contact and again making the circuit and so it went on, continually making and breaking, but because of the frequency of the fwds/ bwds motion the arc never had a chance to totally decay and so the very small, but much cooler bead run was laid down.
I cannot tell you exactly what the frequency of operation was, but I do remember the sound vividly. I would guesstimate around 250 to 350 cycles per minute.
There was an adjusting knob on the back of the central core, maybe that somehow controlled the spring tension, and so the frequency of operation.

Isn't it marvellous, being able to remember garbage like that, but forget what you had for breakfast this morning.

John


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## kustomkb (Aug 13, 2008)

Heres a simple english wheel I made , a roller bearing for the top wheel and a spherical bearing for the bottom.
A piece of threaded rod to adjust the pressure.




Used it to shape these tanks and fenders.


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> You should learn my cad package, the one that I used for the sketch below.



I like that package better but I don't have a scanner. Yet. (I can't figure out where to put one so I may wind up with a multi-function printer.) 



> The central core was insulated from the outer windings and when the rod was touched on to the earthed workpiece, it completed the circuit to the solenoid. With the solenoid energised, it pulled the core back, causing the arc to strike on the end of the rod.



Ah, a think of beauty (design-wise speaking.) How often did the rod have to be repositioned due to consumption, or was the position of the whole solenoid setup moved forward as needed? In either case, it's almost like stitching the pieces together only with weld.



> Isn't it marvellous, being able to remember garbage like that, but forget what you had for breakfast this morning.



Sometimes forgetting what breakfast was is a mercy. 

I wonder if this would work with the microwelder. The low voltages & currents (12v from a computer power supply) make keeping an arc alive a rather delicate proposition. Oh, boy! Another gadget!

Thank you for the description, John,

Best regards,

Kludge


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## lugnut (Aug 13, 2008)

I built this small English wheel a few years ago after seeing one similar somewhere on the Internet. 
I used a bearing for the top roller and machined the bottom one. The frame is of 1" X3" rectangular tubbing. I'm sure it could be scaled down to any size that would fit your needs. I'll look and see if I can find the web site that gave me the idea.
Mel


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

kustomkb  said:
			
		

> Heres a simple english wheel I made , a roller bearing for the top wheel and a spherical bearing for the bottom.



This is a cool idea. What do you have the ball sitting in so it's free to turn? Also, do you use different diameter balls or just the one? 



> Used it to shape these tanks and fenders.



Ooooh, pretty. And a proper unguarded chain just like God intended. ;D

The first bike I had was a Harley 45 with a suicide clutch & tank shift. It had a kick starter and an open chain ... and was an absolute blast to ride. I rode a bunch of different bikes since but that wil always be my favorite.

Thanks for the ideas. I do appreciate them.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

lugnut  said:
			
		

> I built this small English wheel a few years ago after seeing one similar somewhere on the Internet.



I was looking at some aluminum hobby 3" C-clamps after I posted about drawing one, looking for a clamp to use for my "model". I let them slide by because I couldn't think of a way to make them practical. This bearing idea at the end solves that nicely and the shape is almost the same. 

How did you choose the radius for the roller? I've seen different ones used but never saw any sort of hint how to determine what's proper for a given application.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## kustomkb (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks,

I have a couple different diameters but they are spherical, not with different crowns. thaey have ball bearings sleeved to fit inside which ride on a shaft which sits in the yoke.

http://www.allshops.org/

these guys share alot of metal shaping info.

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/tech/articles/12ewheel.html

heres one like lugnuts, I got my idea from the same site.

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/tech/articles/12ewheel.html


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## PTsideshow (Aug 13, 2008)

Have you thought about a palmnailer, like thishttp://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93496
they also have a kit from time to time that has different hammers/anvils in it. They also sold some separate anvils for them 

OK here they are.


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

kustomkb  said:
			
		

> I have a couple different diameters but they are spherical, not with different crowns. thaey have ball bearings sleeved to fit inside which ride on a shaft which sits in the yoke.



Cool. I modified my mental sketch to use the same basic idea just in a much smaller scale. Much much smaller. Probably a 3-4" C-clamp machined from 1/2" aluminum for a frame kind of smaller. 

Okay, that's not fair! That's two more forums that it's a _moral imperative_ to join! When will it ever end? :big:

Seriously, thank you for them. I feel like a student (Ranger, are you taking this in? A 63 year old going back to school and you're a step or three ahead of the old fart!) but I love learning. 

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## Kludge (Aug 13, 2008)

PTsideshow  said:
			
		

> Have you thought about a palmnailer



Okay, I didn't see that coming - a practical use for the electric hammer.  How did that happen? Won't Noelle be proud! 

Seriously, thank you for the heads up. I doubt mine will have the same power but it does give me some ideas how to use it including making a frame kind of like a watchmaker's staking set for things like riveting and setting really small gears square on shafts etc. Okay, this is getting even more so ubercool.

I wonder how many different ways I can make one of these things ...

BEst regards,

Kludge


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## gmac (Aug 15, 2008)

These people make simple but effective tools which you can use as reference and idea starters. Just scale down the designs.
http://www.lowbucktools.com/MM1.html

If you have access to "Street Rodder" magazine they've done an article on Low Bucks "Metal Machine" - November 2007 issue - or (although I haven't checked) you may find the article on their website

www.streetrodderweb.com

Cheers
Garry Mac Donald
British Columbia Canada


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## Kludge (Aug 15, 2008)

gmac  said:
			
		

> These people make simple but effective tools which you can use as reference and idea starters. Just scale down the designs.



Let's see ... slightly enlarge & beef up the frame to 5/8" square ... mumble mumble ... mounting bolt and locating pin ... mumble mumble ... classicly clever design - glad I thought of it ... ;D

Thank you, Garry. It solves several problems in an elegantly simple way. I looked at Lowbuck's site and they've got some decidedly cool toys in general. I may ... ummm ... borrow a few other ideas later on. 



> If you have access to "Street Rodder" magazine they've done an article on Low Bucks "Metal Machine"



I didn't see that article but I did come across one on the Y-block Ford engines. That brought back some good memories from the early 60s and a certain "mildly adjusted" 292 that lived in a certain 1957 unassuming grey Custom 300 4-door sleeper - basically a "daddy's car" on the outside but not under the hood. 

Again, many thanks - both for the information and the memories I came across.

Best regards,

kludge


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## Viggen (Aug 15, 2008)

A place called www.metalmeet.com has a fair amount on the wheel. I seem to remember several designs and lots of ideas. Working with sheetmetal is their focus.


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## Kludge (Aug 15, 2008)

Viggen  said:
			
		

> A place called www.metalmeet.com has a fair amount on the wheel. I seem to remember several designs and lots of ideas. Working with sheetmetal is their focus.



Hmmm ... Viggen ... a really _sweet_ Swedish jet fighter. 

Anyway, I looked at metalmeet and *sigh* ... it's yet another forum I absolutely _must_ join. This "moral imperative" stuff is truly a burden but, as a more or less sentient being with a degree of understanding of the difference between right and maybe not so right, it is one I must bear ... which actually sounds like a really good tagline.

Getting back, they have a beginner's section and everything which is ubercool. And, from what I read in the description, they sound like another fun bunch of folks.

Many thanks, Viggen.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## PTsideshow (Aug 16, 2008)

This month issue of The Home Shop Machinist magazine Sept/Oct 2008 issue. Has a very extensive article on the wheeling machine by Kent White of TinmanTech.
10 pages of history, design operation and the tooling. More than most will ever want to know about the wheeling machine! 
WWW.Tinmantech.com


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## Kludge (Aug 16, 2008)

PTsideshow  said:
			
		

> This month issue of The Home Shop Machinist magazine Sept/Oct 2008 issue. Has a very extensive article on the wheeling machine by Kent White of TinmanTech.



I haven't yet subscribed to this since a friend of mine did and he'd send me some of his old copies. He told me recently he was stopping his subscription so I guess I've got to go it alone. 

Thank you for the heads up on this. While I have to wait until October to get a subscription but I'll keep in mind the article and see if it's either on the website or I can get a back issue. 

As to knowing things like the history ... it's always nice to know why things were done they way they were done; it helps reduce the opportunities for making mistakes in fabricating my own.

I definitely liked TinmanTech's site. He's got all sorts of toys I can duplicate in size-appropriate versions but he's also got some books & videos I can most definitely use.

Wheee!

Best regards,

Kludge


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## PTsideshow (Aug 16, 2008)

Check your local Big Box bookseller as Barnes and Noble sells them here, A lot of hobby shops sell the magazine now. along with the large book and magazine stores near you. Even if you are out there so to speak. :big:


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## Kludge (Aug 16, 2008)

PTsideshow  said:
			
		

> Even if you are out there so to speak. :big:



Out there? That's about right. We have one big box bookseller and that's in Honolulu, the same place the only hobby shop I've found on the island's located. 

HNL's kind of the Big City here and a lot of folks on the island have never been there. It's around 40 miles away by highway (Yeah, I know - not far by mainland standards but a huge distance for locals) which includes three separate weather patterns - Leeward where I live, South Shore where Honolulu is and the variable blend around Kapolei. I have to go in anyway (glasses plus an oxygen tank and an adapter for a propane tank for my Smith mini-welder) plus I promised a neighbor (who has _never_ ridden an open Jeep before which I guess means I _should_ behave) a ride to a wonderful tobaccanist next door to where I get my glasses. A fast stop at B&N (or is it Borders?) at Ward Warehouse should be doable on the return run.

 Sudden realization: Some of my posts include what life's like in Hawaii, kind of rambling observations from a mainland haole who's adopted Hawaii as home. I do hope no one objects; there are a lot of differences which make life interesting.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## PTsideshow (Aug 17, 2008)

Kludge said:
			
		

> HNL's kind of the Big City here and a lot of folks on the island have never been there. It's around 40 miles away by highway (Yeah, I know - not far by mainland standards but a huge distance for locals) which includes three separate weather patterns - Leeward where I live,



I understand when in the navy back in the 70's. I rented a mazada rotary engine for a day(8Hours) Didn't understand why the guy laughed when I told him I was going to drive around the island.

After 3 trips on the highway that circles it. I took the car back he was still laughing. He said yep no where really to go and you get there pretty fast!
 ;D


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## Kludge (Aug 17, 2008)

PTsideshow  said:
			
		

> I understand when in the navy back in the 70's. I rented a mazada rotary engine for a day(8Hours)



I was out of the Navy (medical that eventually lead to my disability rating) in '65 but never got here then. I guess when you were here, Hotel Street was still in full swing. 

Anyway, 8 hours can be quite constructively used if you don't stick to the main roads. Of course, that would entail finding a local "guide" in the process. 



> After 3 trips on the highway that circles it. I took the car back he was still laughing. He said yep no where really to go and you get there pretty fast!



The Circle Island route (which actually cuts down the center of the island past Schofield Barracks) is 120 miles. Even adding on side trips to Dillingham Airfield on the North Shore and Makaha on the Leeward Coast, it barely gets past 200 miles. It's so short that it's a bus route and the same bus takes 3-4 trips/day. (They go every 1/2 hour or so with one leaving in each direction at the same time. The meeting point is the Turtle Bay Hilton - not a bad spot for a short layover. )

I spent part of my life hauling freight - local night drops along the OH-PA border then down into W VA for a bit before turning home again. The route was anywhere from 250-500 miles, dependent on which stops I had to make. I was talking to some big truck drivers here and they couldn't visualize a route like that, let alone consider it a local route. If I could still pass the drug tests & physical (med change, courtesy the VA - part won't pass the former and the latter ... well, getting suddenly drowsy driving something much, much bigger than a bread box is a sure way to have a really bad end to one's day.), I could probably have any route I wanted from any company. 

Hmmm ... I wonder if I can get a note from my doctors ... :

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Dhow Nunda wallah (Aug 18, 2008)

If you have patient, deaf, or NO neighbours, you could contemplate a helve hammer.
EG
http://www.metalshapers.org/101/mcglynn/thehelve.htm

I have to blame my hot rodding mate for that one. The only experience I have is the noise


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## Kludge (Aug 18, 2008)

Dhow Nunda wallah  said:
			
		

> If you have patient, deaf, or NO neighbours, you could contemplate a helve hammer.



Considering the scale in which I build (loosely: really really small), it wouldn't be quite so noisy and I think I have just the motor to drive it. Even so, I doubt operating it at night would endear me to the neighbors a lot. 

Thank you for the URL ... I snared it and will be studying Yet Another way to drive my neighbors bonkers.

BEst regards,

Kludge


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