# The "None Compression Engine". I need info.



## kode1303 (Nov 30, 2011)

Hi there,

Sitting here in cold Scandinavia, I am thinking of future projects and found this forum so I joined up right away.
My status is newbie both here and in engine building, but I am fascinated by the 'None Comprssion Engine' and would eventually like to build one. I found one post here from back in '09, but it didn't say much.

So - my question is if any in here can give some hints, links, plans or any info on this engine type.
My thoughts of the engine is that it should be simple with standard spark plug (like for weed eaters) and easy-to-make valves etc. I'm thinking of a bore diameter of about 25mm or one inch. Fuel sould be normal petrol fed from a simple vapor 'bubble karb'. I like the thought of water cooling, so a soldered radiator with a pump would be nice to make too.

I'm a science teacher and is 'OK' with my hands. I have basic hand tools, a drill press and a small lathe that I haven't worked all that much with, so my lathe turning skills are probably basic too.

A link from YouTube just to show the kind of engine I'm thinking about:
An 'ugly' one:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9lW2RHXFFg[/youtube]

A Nicer one:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocA_JQ4sZSI[/youtube]

I'd be thrilled and happy to receive any help on this subject.
Thanks!

J. Rasmussen Denmark, Europe.


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## kode1303 (Nov 30, 2011)

My YouTube links doesn't seem to work that well (what did I do wrong?), so here are the links again:

'Ugly'
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9lW2RHXFFg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9lW2RHXFFg[/ame]

'Nice'
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocA_JQ4sZSI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocA_JQ4sZSI[/ame]


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## Catminer (Nov 30, 2011)

Hi J;
 Welcome from cold Canada.

Search for Sombart engine, this is the only non compression I have encountered. There is one at coolspring and I have seen one running model here in Can. I don't quite understand your comment about a vapor carb. I think if it has vacuum for a liquid fuel carb it will have compression.

Peter


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## chuck foster (Nov 30, 2011)

you might want to email this guy http://rmcd.20megsfree.com/index_2.html 

his name is nick rowland he is a real nice guy to deal with.
he has built many different kinds of model engines and he might be able to help you.

chuck


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## cfellows (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a little more information from a fellow who built the Pioneer engine. It does give the timings for valve opening, closing, firing, etc.

http://www.floridaame.org/GalleryPages/g1H0259.htm

Chuck


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## kode1303 (Dec 3, 2011)

Thanks for the replies and links!




			
				Catminer  said:
			
		

> I don't quite understand your comment about a vapor carb. I think if it has vacuum for a liquid fuel carb it will have compression.
> 
> Peter




Peter, 
Yes there must be at least some vacuum to suck in the vapor/air mix from the carb. However, as the exhaust valve is open all the way when the piston goes up, compression does not happen. 
Anyway - this very simple and unusual functioning is why I'd like to make one!


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## kode1303 (Dec 3, 2011)

I made this drawing (PDF file on my DropBox) of the funktion of the non compression engine - as I understand it!
I hope I'm not way off :-\

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6297142/NonCompressionEngine.pdf


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## deverett (Dec 3, 2011)

The Pioneer is a design by the late Rudy Kouhoupt.

If you go to Camden Miniature Steam Services, http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/ they will sell you a set of plans and a DVD for this engine.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 3, 2011)

Hi J. I'm a Newbie - signed up just today. The same two engines that you posted from Youtube have caught my interest also. So I've started research and found this forum. Everyone here seems so knowledgable and interested in helping, but I feel daunted and humbled by their level of expertise and wisdom. I have limited experience and only basic equipment but hope to increase my inventory of both and build a simple engine. I'm sure that we have come to the right place here. Please post as you go, and I too will grow. Good luck to you.  Ralph


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## cfellows (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi Ralph,

I take it you are the same Flyingtractors1 that builds beautiful little brass solenoid engines that are displayed on youtube?

Chuck


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi, Yes, and thanks. I have built about every solenoid engine configuration that I could imagine and enjoyed it immensley. A collection is posted on YouTube by flyingtractors1. Steam power has also intrigued me, and now I want to "graduate" to Internal Combustian Engines, but I don't really know where to start. They pose new challenges that may be beyond my present skill and equipment level. I need to knowledge up and find more tools. Advise me?


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## deverett (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi Ralph and welcome to the forum.

If you are looking for a first IC engine, you could look at the Webster 4 stroke http://www.john-tom.com/html/SteamPlans2.html about half way down the page. There must have been at least 100 of these engines built around the world.

Another excellent site is Jan Ridders. http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/ He has several IC engine types. To get the drawings, just send him an email telling him which design you would like and he will reply pretty promptly.

Both these sites will have sufficient engines of all types to keep you occupied for a long time.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## cfellows (Dec 4, 2011)

kode1303  said:
			
		

> I made this drawing (PDF file on my DropBox) of the funktion of the non compression engine - as I understand it!
> I hope I'm not way off :-\
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6297142/NonCompressionEngine.pdf



Your drawing looks correct. Attached is another drawing, approximately to scale, showing the crankshaft positions where the valves open and close and the engine fires.

I wonder if, instead of a cam operated inlet valve, you could just use a weaker spring and let atmospheric pressure (vacuum) open it on the intake stroke. When the engine fired, the pressure would close the intake valve. I believe some other types of early engines used this method. Another thought, instead of spark ignition, maybe you could mount a glow plug in the side of the cylinder so the piston would uncover it at the appropriate firing position.

I also believe that a vapor carburetor would work just fine.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow (Dec 4, 2011)

Ralph---I agree with SteamDave, about the webster being a great first i.c. engine. Here is a link to my build from a few years ago.---Brian
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8388.0


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## cfellows (Dec 4, 2011)

Here is a link to an article, with illustrations, about the Loyal Cycle engine, also a 2 stroke design.

http://modelenginenews.org/etw/systeme_loyal.html

Chuck


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## GailInNM (Dec 4, 2011)

The earliest internal combustion engines were non compression. 
Here are links to the videos of Otto Langen early engines and a link to a description. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85HkJCqjbrA[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs56Cii3kdg[/ame]


http://sites.google.com/site/wgrenning/home

They were atmospheric engines in that the power stroke was when the hot gases cooled they created a partial vacuum in the cylinder and atmospheric pressure provided the power stroke.

A number of models of these engines have been built and at least one casting kit produced. They are great to watch run at model engineering shows.
Gail in NM


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 4, 2011)

WOW! I jumped in on J's question ( please forgive me, J ) and have already received substantial response to my quandry ( one I share with J ). Thanks alot, guys. I am now busy studying the literature and have already learned much. Hope you also have, J.


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## kode1303 (Dec 5, 2011)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> I wonder if, instead of a cam operated inlet valve, you could just use a weaker spring and let atmospheric pressure (vacuum) open it on the intake stroke. When the engine fired, the pressure would close the intake valve.



Yes, Jan Ridders (Who is mentioned above), has used a spring loaded ball valve for intake in his engines. He only - as far as I have seen - use the vapor carb to feed his engines. He actually sparked (get it??) my interest because of that simple carb when I realised that I didn't have to build a 'real' one.

With only the exhaust valve to be controlled by a single 180 degr. cam the engine gets even simpler.
Thanks.


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## kode1303 (Dec 5, 2011)

flyingtractors1  said:
			
		

> WOW! I jumped in on J's question ( please forgive me, J ) and have already received substantial response to my quandry ( one I share with J ). Thanks alot, guys. I am now busy studying the literature and have already learned much. Hope you also have, J.



You're forgiven 
I'm only glad that more are interested in the non compression engine. From what I can see, you are indeed quite skilled with a lathe etc., so maybe you can be a forerunner whose experience I can benefit and learn from.
Thanks for all other replies too


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 6, 2011)

Hi J. I do have an old 6X14 Delta lathe that I have learned to piddle with, but I'm a little bit short on IC engine know how and wany to start with something simple - if there is such a thing. Have you found that critter?


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## kode1303 (Dec 6, 2011)

Ralph,
The only experience I have with IC engines is from fiddling with lawnmower engines and so on. And as a science teacher I know the theory, but until now I've stayed away from trying to make one because the work has to be so accurate in order to get proper compression and working valves etc.
However, the non compression engine is quite simple - I guess the simplest IC engine there is, and I think I might be able to make one. Time will tell.
Right now engine building is a rather silly hobby for me to start with as I have three year-old twins and another girl arriving any time now ... so it might be a while before I can produce a working engine. So far I find it interesting to learn more and great to get advice from skilled and knowledgeable folks here in my latest favorite forum.
If you get startet on a Non Compression Engine, I'd like very much to know about it and see it running


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Well, I'm going to proceed with a plan of my own borrowing from all the examples I've seen and the good advise received. I have a good understanding of how an engine works. Now all that's needed is to gather materials, cut them to fit and put them together. Still sounds like square 1, but square 2 is not too far down the road. I have'nt figured out the ignition system and not sure about the valving nor the fuel system. Other than that, I'm ready to go - except for the crankshaft and bearings and rings for the piston and a few other things, plus things I haven't thought of yet. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter.


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## len1042 (Aug 11, 2012)

Hi Gail.
do you know the name and another info for either the plans or castings for the otto langen engine.
Thanks, Len





GailInNM said:


> The earliest internal combustion engines were non compression.
> Here are links to the videos of Otto Langen early engines and a link to a description.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85HkJCqjbrA
> ...


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## metal89 (Aug 17, 2012)

Hi,
here are some documentation I gathered on non compression Lenoir engine and Hopkins engine.
Patrick 

View attachment Moteur Lenoir.zip


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## GailInNM (Aug 17, 2012)

Len, 
Sorry I don't have any helpful information on plans or castings.
PatricK,
Thanks for jumping in with your information.

Gail in NM


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