# Putting some grip (stippling) on an aluminium drive pulley.



## JimDobson

Putting some grip (stippling) on an aluminium drive pulley.

I've always wanted to work out a way to put some extra grip on a home made drive pulley to prevent or cut down on belt slippage. It would be nice to have the tooling that Wilesco use on their grooved pulleys. I had a Dremel saw accessory that the outer plastic shell broke and I thought what can I do with the saw blade. Rudimentary, but it worked well. I should be able to work out now a way to mount it so it doesn't need to be held, though its not as dangerous as that looks and being hand held allowed me to skew the saw blade at the various angles needed easily.


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## RM-MN

I think you will find that along with the extra grip you get from that you will also find excessive belt wear.  The more common way to transmit more power is to use a wider belt and pulleys.


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## BaronJ

Hi Jim, Guys,

Knurling a shaft has long been a technique for improving the fit in a pulley bore.


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## goldstar31

I think the Health and Safety people might have  might the same view as myself.
Initially, ther is ubsupported machining and secondly, the idea is gimcrack-- to say the least.

I'd welcome  the thoughts of the qualified- which I am not


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## fcheslop

Probably would have had a size 10 boot up youre backside as you left the establishment
Keep counting fingers just to make sure they are all still attached


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

Whilst I understand what Jim was trying to do, I wouldn't have posted that video as a method of achieving the machining.

In my opinion it was a poorly thought out video !  Displaying a dangerous procedure.  Certainly a practice not to be recommended.


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## josodl1953

Pulleys for drive belts should have a vee-shaped groove, making the belt wedge into the groove and thus create friction  to transfer power from one pulley to another. The reason  Messrs. Wilesco knurled their grooves  on the steam engine pulleys  was that they did not use ordinary belts ( rubber) but belts made of a long thin spiral spring. The idea behind this was that this type of drive was not critical on center distance ot the shafts. The attachments that could be used, for instance a circular saw or grinding equipment were just for show, not to do the actual job.  So, the power  transmitted was negligible  and made the spiral spring belt ideal for the job. After all, we are talking about toys. I had a few of these attachments on my Wilesco steam engine  long time ago back in the sixties when I was a child....

Jos


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## IanN

Returning to the original post:

What are you trying to do with the pulley system, and why are you using the belt/pulley you show?

If you want to transmit power you should use a belt/pulley designed for the job rather than taking a belt design/form intended to transmit little power and “over-rate” it (as others have already said)

If you must use the belt you show, a standard way of increasing the power capacity is to run two (or more) belts in parallel pulleys

Also, as already said by others, for power transmission a vee profile groove or a flat pulley with a crown is used, never a radiused profile groove

Finally - belt transmission has been in use for (literally) centuries, and in that time has been perfected through experiment and the development of engineering theory.  Common sense suggests that if texturing the pulley was a good method of increasing the power capacity the all pulleys would be made that way .....

All the best,
Ian


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## JimDobson

Works very well for its intended purpose on Model & Toy Steam -


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## JimDobson

And happy to add no wear and tear to the belting


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## terryd

IanN said:


> Returning to the original post:
> 
> What are you trying to do with the pulley system, and why are you using the belt/pulley you show?
> 
> If you want to transmit power you should use a belt/pulley designed for the job rather than taking a belt design/form intended to transmit little power and “over-rate” it (as others have already said)
> 
> If you must use the belt you show, a standard way of increasing the power capacity is to run two (or more) belts in parallel pulleys
> 
> Also, as already said by others, for power transmission a vee profile groove or a flat pulley with a crown is used, never a radiused profile groove
> 
> Finally - belt transmission has been in use for (literally) centuries, and in that time has been perfected through experiment and the development of engineering theory.  Common sense suggests that if texturing the pulley was a good method of increasing the power capacity the all pulleys would be made that way .....
> 
> All the best,
> Ian



Hi Ian, 
we used to apply a bit of powdered rosin - the stuff violinists use on their bows - if a Vee or similar belt showed signs of slipping, but that was not often neccessary.  If the pulley and  belt are matched properly, then tensioned correctly slippage should not be a problem.  We used lightweight round section plastic belting on small machines such as sensitive drilling machine with never any slippage problems, but they had elasticity could be stretched onto the pulleys for tension (not excessive of course, not enough to cause bearing wear) and didn't stretch,

Terry


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## RM-MN

Contrary to what one would expect, a little oil on a v-belt that was beginning to slip due to age and wear would cause it to grip better.  It would get the farmer by during the last of the harvest when time was critical but that belt better be replaced before the next harvest.


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## goldstar31

Few of us seem to have forgotten( or just don't know' just how many uses rosin and other resins can be put.


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## terryd

RM-MN said:


> Contrary to what one would expect, a little oil on a v-belt that was beginning to slip due to age and wear would cause it to grip better.  It would get the farmer by during the last of the harvest when time was critical but that belt better be replaced before the next harvest.



What is very obvious when watching old farm machinery such as threshers or field saws is how slack the flat belts are.  I was once told that is deliberate as it increases the length of belt around the perimeter of the flat pulley thus increasing friction.  Tight isn't always a good thing.

TerryD


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## Mechanicboy

30 degree "V" shaped pulley is common to get better grip on the belt. Knurled pulley is not good for belt.


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## goldstar31

Whilst I was brought up in horse drawn machinery and steam traction engines, it was rarely safe for workpeople.

During WW2 my cousin made Spitfire oleo legs on a lathe and she wore a 'snood' to avoid trapping her long hair. 

Incidentally- wide belt pulleys were 'coned' to keep them in track.
Then there was 'fast and loose ' ones.

It's all really ancient  like balata belting- and underground conveyor belts-- and some were illegally used as transport underground to anf from the coasl faces. My father used to 'socket' the wire ropes that pulley the coal wagons to and from the mines to the staiths were coal was loaded for shipment. 
We used to walk the waggon ways as shortcuts but we had to dodge the ropes when the wagons started to move. Our stuff was worked by gravity- and downright dangerous.

But mens'  lives were cheap


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## terryd

H


goldstar31 said:


> Few of us seem to have forgotten( or just don't know' just how many uses rosin and other resins can be put.


Hi Norman,

We have forgotten many valuable things, some of which have been reinvented.  For example, the 'Diamond' tool holder which holds the tool bit almost vertically,  very similar tool holders are described and illustrated in a book published around 1860 by a factory inspector of which I have a facsimile copy.  In the rush for the latest aids, CNC, carbide tooling we seem to have forgotten that past masters produced very high quality products using Carbon steel tooling, manual lathes and simple hand tools.

I went to an exhibition of the work of Maudslay and Marc Brunel (father of Isambard Kingdom B.) for the admiralty block making machinery at the London Science museum and Maudlay's screwcutting lathe was exhibited.  I was astounded by the quality of his work and the precision involved - it certainly was outstanding when compared with any modern lathe of any manufacturer and the surfaces had been hand scraped and then finished to a high polish.  But then again Maudslay was a 'Mechanician' of incredible skill at a time when there were many like him.  

It's time we got back to basics and the forget the idea that throwing money at a problem will solve it or improve our skills.

TerryD


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## terryd

goldstar31 said:


> Whilst I was brought up in horse drawn machinery and steam traction engines, it was rarely safe for workpeople.
> 
> During WW2 my cousin made Spitfire oleo legs on a lathe and she wore a 'snood' to avoid trapping her long hair.
> 
> Incidentally- wide belt pulleys were 'coned' to keep them in track.
> Then there was 'fast and loose ' ones.
> 
> It's all really ancient  like balata belting- and underground conveyor belts-- and some were illegally used as transport underground to anf from the coasl faces. My father used to 'socket' the wire ropes that pulley the coal wagons to and from the mines to the staiths were coal was loaded for shipment.
> We used to walk the waggon ways as shortcuts but we had to dodge the ropes when the wagons started to move. Our stuff was worked by gravity- and downright dangerous.
> 
> But mens'  lives were cheap



Hi Norman,
My first, early training on a lathe, before I was allowed in the toolroom was with an old boy who produced small batches or 'one offs' of components for our special conveyors (one type of which were the wide belt  conveyors for coal and mineral mines).  The lathe he worked on and taught me on had the words cast into it's front headstock cover "Austin Motors - 1906", one of the originals when the factory opened at Longbridge.  It had 4 thou' play in the headstock bearings but he could still make stuff to within 1 thou'.  All carbon steel tooling, no messing with modern HSS stuff for him.

It was also belt driven with a cone of pulleys on the lathe and an opposing cone on a loosely hinged angle iron frame driven by a large electric motor which provided the weight to keep the belt in tension.  we changed speed while the lathe was running by hitting the belt with the side of the fist.  By the way, I think that you will find the term for the pulley profile is 'crowned' or 'bellied' rather than 'coned'.

TerryD


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## goldstar31

TerryD
              I greatly appreciate another 'view of the last' because combined with today's knowledge, we can really mpve onn to greater things.

I had a really interested young man writing to me and who is desperate to learn.  He has limited and old tools and this time asked about 'taper turning', I presume on his recently. acquired  ancient rattle trap Clarkson grinder

So I wrote about the Morse Taper- and saif 'Really the sine should be 10 inches( and not 12) so that the offset can accept a 'Quarter of an inch'. Yes people might argue but that was the 'intention'

Again, case hardening which needed a ginger headed virgin boy's urine for the task. Of cours , chemically, it is so nearly right
Best Wishes

Norman


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## chrsbrbnk

the farmers don't have a slack belt intentionally  and definitely not when under high load   but the belt weight on a 100 ft   6inch wide flat belt 3/8 thick  kind of sags itself  and provides a lot of tension on the pulley faces    the stippling does work  a little more tough on the belt  but its a model not a production machine   a safer method would be using a purpose built handle for the saw blade  or maybe just chuck it in the dremel and let the dremel free wheel


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## JimDobson

chrsbrbnk said:


> the farmers don't have a slack belt intentionally  and definitely not when under high load   but the belt weight on a 100 ft   6inch wide flat belt 3/8 thick  kind of sags itself  and provides a lot of tension on the pulley faces    the stippling does work  a little more tough on the belt  but its a model not a production machine   a safer method would be using a purpose built handle for the saw blade  or *maybe just chuck it in the dremel and let the dremel free wheel*



That's a very good suggestion, blindingly obvious, but not thought of by myself. Thanks!


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## terryd

Instead  of using a dremel saw blade you could get a leather marking wheel use for marking out stitch spacing as used by sadlers and leatherworkers.  Cheap ones are available on eBay and they would easily manage on aluminium.  Having a proper handle makes the job so much safer.
TerryD



ea


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## goldstar31

terryd said:


> Instead  of using a dremel saw blade you could get a leather marking wheel use for marking out stitch spacing as used by sadlers and leatherworkers.  Cheap ones are available on eBay and they would easily manage on aluminium.  Having a proper handle makes the job so much safer.
> TerryD
> 
> 
> 
> eaView attachment 120232



I'd actually forgotten  that I once could do a 'Holbein' stitch.


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## k2steve

I don't know why a lot of these negative post bother me so much,  I do not see a problem with how Jim did his thing. I am guessing that these negative folks don't catch there part with a hand when parting off or use emery paper on there part next to the chuck while its rotating.


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## ALEX1952

The leather belts which were joined with a wire "lace" which.  if used on a machine such as the old smart and brown lathes on which I learnt my trade, with slack in the head stock bearings, it would probably produce a mark in your work given the right circumstances. There is a lot to be said for learning on a worn out machine, it teaches you to work round the short comings of equipment and still turn out a good job without throwing money at it. Now the only thing knackered is me bad hear,t cancer remission, age etc but we work round it.


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## BaronJ

k2steve said:


> I don't know why a lot of these negative post bother me so much,  I do not see a problem with how Jim did his thing. I am guessing that these negative folks don't catch there part with a hand when parting off or use emery paper on there part next to the chuck while its rotating.



That depends upon how much you value parts of your anatomy !

Personally I think that it is wrong to pass on these dangerous techniques to those who may not know any better !  Now if the video showed the job done safely it would be a different matter.


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## IanN

BaronJ said:


> That depends upon how much you value parts of your anatomy !
> 
> Personally I think that it is wrong to pass on these dangerous techniques to those who may not know any better


Hi,

I agree with BaronJ - many people trust and rely on the content of forums such as this (yes, I know it is crazy to trust a random idiot posting on the internet but people really do - said by a random idiot...)

Sooner or later an inexperienced newcomer will follow a “bright idea” and get seriously injured.  When that happens, I would guess that there will be repercussions for a forum such as this (we live in an ever increasingly litigious society)

I teach apprentices.  After five years of college and industrial engineering experience they are deemed to be newly qualified engineers/machinists.  This has taken 40 hrs a week for five years = 2000 (approx) on the job hours.  If you are a keen amateur and spend a couple of hours every evening, every day, every week, in your workshop (700 hrs per year) it will take you almost 30 years to get the same level of experience as a newly qualified apprentice (assuming you have also studied the text books and passed the theory exams too)

My point is that we should be very careful what advice we give to people with no prior knowledge, no prior experience and no one looking over their shoulder guiding their every move

Ian


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## JimDobson

Really happy how quick and easy this method worked for giving that extra grip that can sometimes be needed on such small pulleys that are on model and toy steam engines and the accessories that can be run off them.


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## JimDobson

And to quote good old John Moore (Bogstandard, jeez I miss him) from the sticky at the top of the Tips & Tricks section -

_"For all of us who have a bit of experience and those who don't have as much, this topic is here to show people how we do things, there might be other ways, buts lets see how you do it.
We don't all have the tooling required in the shape of millers, surface grinders etc, but most people should have a lathe. So lets show members how to use the machinery we have to make those elusive little bits.
Nothing is too mediocre for this section, even if it is how to get the stuck on top off a superglue bottle, without mashing the top (if anyone has a solution to that, let me know), lets hear about how you do it.
Let's help people make little engines, don't hide your little secrets, share them, it doesn't cost you anything except a little time.
It just might help someone over the hurdle of finding a way to get that little engine finished"._


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## JimDobson

terryd said:


> Instead  of using a dremel saw blade you could get a leather marking wheel use for marking out stitch spacing as used by sadlers and leatherworkers.  Cheap ones are available on eBay and they would easily manage on aluminium.  Having a proper handle makes the job so much safer.
> TerryD



Yeah, I could have bought and paid for a whole lot of things and waited for them to arrive to use that may or may not have worked as well.
Sometimes you use what you have at hand.
Necessity is the mother of invention ........ as the saying going.


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## terryd

k2steve said:


> I don't know why a lot of these negative post bother me so much,  I do not see a problem with how Jim did his thing. I am guessing that these negative folks don't catch there part with a hand when parting off or use emery paper on there part next to the chuck while its rotating.



Hi Steve

People aren't necessarily criticising, rather they are advising.
I worked in the engineering industry before H&S was taken really seriously.  There were many operatives who had lost parts of fingers, even whole fingers and hands.  There were those who lost the use of an eye.  I could go on and on and relate the range of sometimes horrendous injuries but that would need an essay.  The majority of these injuries were caused by taking short cuts or using techniques such as we have seen here.

By the way, most of the parts caught when parting off in our hobby are mostly small and circular with low energy when finally cut, But I usually catch my parting off with a small round bar (such as a key used to replace carbide tips) in the borea.  When using abrasive cloth (not paper) I and most others would not go anywhere near the rotating chuck with a small piece, I use a long strip of emery cloth, long enough to allow me to hold both ends well away, not allowing it to become wrapped around the part.  I have been using rotating machinery at home and work for almost 50 years and still have all of my physical faculties.

TerryD


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## JimDobson

terryd said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> People aren't necessarily criticising, rather they are advising.
> I worked in the engineering industry before H&S was taken really seriously.  There were many operatives who had lost parts of fingers, even whole fingers and hands.  There were those who lost the use of an eye.  I could go on and on and relate the range of sometimes horrendous injuries but that would need an essay.  *The majority of these injuries were caused by taking short cuts or using techniques such as we have seen here.*
> 
> By the way, most of the parts caught when parting off in our hobby are mostly small and circular with low energy when finally cut, But I usually catch my parting off with a small round bar (such as a key used to replace carbide tips) in the borea.  When using abrasive cloth (not paper) I and most others would not go anywhere near the rotating chuck with a small piece, I use a long strip of emery cloth, long enough to allow me to hold both ends well away, not allowing it to become wrapped around the part.  I have been using rotating machinery at home and work for almost 50 years and still have all of my physical faculties.
> 
> TerryD



Mate, you're going over the top. Its a 1" dremel saw blade held by its arbor with a pair of multigrips.


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## Cogsy

I'm also struggling to see what people are getting so worked up about here. The 'cutter' was being held in a pair of multigrips (which I often trust enough to do various jobs involving molten metal work and have a far more reliable handle than a wooden leatherworking tool) so hands were nowhere near the spinning chuck, which is the biggest hazard in my opinion. Plus, the 'cutter' itself was a very low weight blade and not spinning at terribly high RPM, so it had little rotational momentum. If he had let the thing go while in contact with the part, it would (in my estimation) been kicked away from the workpiece and very quickly stopped rotating. If it had somehow contacted skin before it stopped it contained so little energy that it was unlikely to do any damage. As long as he was wearing eye protection I don't think there was much risk. 

I feel a lot more anxiety when I use the abrasive disks or grinding attachments that fit the Dremel-type machines. They spin up to something scary like 35,000 RPM and will sometimes just explode into projectiles if they encounter a jam or are just poorly made.


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## BaronJ

Guys, you are missing the point !

It is not a safe practice and it has no place in a video that is going to be seen by many people that will think that it is OK to do things that way.  The fact that it was a tiny wheel is not the point !


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## JimDobson

BaronJ said:


> Guys, you are missing the point !



No, I reckon that's you.


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## coulsea

I think that this is a good solution for this application but I think that in general people who make videos and publish them do have a responsibility for the information that they offer. A short explanation of why you think that there is little risk for you in this application. If you don't see that there is any risk of the next person using a 6 inch blade supported by a pencil then maybe you should not be publishing videos. Not trying to pick on Jim but generally if you wouldn't publish it in a book, don't publish it in a video that can be seen by everyone, forever.


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## JimDobson

coulsea said:


> I think that this is a good solution for this application but I think that in general people who make videos and publish them do have a responsibility for the information that they offer. A short explanation of why you think that there is little risk for you in this application. If you don't see that there is any *risk of the next person using a 6 inch blade supported by a pencil *then maybe you should not be publishing videos. Not trying to pick on Jim but generally if you wouldn't publish it in a book, don't publish it in a video that can be seen by everyone, forever.



Once again, just completely over the top response.


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## minh-thanh

My opinion :
From my memory, I seem to have tried it the same  way as JimDobson .
And another couple of times with some seemingly unsafe way
But then I always find a way to hold back and limit if something goes wrong
But, let's say: If a person is completely new (or very inexperienced , or  he doesn't notice speed ... ...) and has a lathe, and he does the same but at a higher speed (500, 1000 rpm ..) and what What happens when he makes a mistake ??
I'm not saying I always do one thing safely, but with my little experience it seems to be okay for people who have already experienced , it's not for the novice.


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## Cogsy

BaronJ said:


> Guys, you are missing the point !
> 
> It is not a safe practice and it has no place in a video that is going to be seen by many people that will think that it is OK to do things that way.  The fact that it was a tiny wheel is not the point !


But if it wasn't the tool that he used that you have an issue with then was it simply the practice of hand-holding tool on a metal lathe? There are plenty of videos of graving and metal spinning where they do just that and no-one suggests these videos are not appropriate. What exactly is the issue here?


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## JimDobson

Hope no one who's complaining has ever put a file near a spinning lathe. I know I do....regularly.


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## BaronJ

JimDobson said:


> No, I reckon that's you.



No !  I see someone that is so full of himself that he is blind to the consequences !


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## BaronJ

Cogsy said:


> But if it wasn't the tool that he used that you have an issue with then was it simply the practice of hand-holding tool on a metal lathe? There are plenty of videos of graving and metal spinning where they do just that and no-one suggests these videos are not appropriate. What exactly is the issue here?



You wouldn't use a graver without a tool rest !

The issue is not what was done but how it was done and published in a video !

Like others I have seen some horrific injuries caused by failing to recognise the dangers involved.

Using a file on an object in a rotating chuck is often done, but then there are plenty of warnings and instruction about how it should be done.

People cut corners every day and get away with it, then there is that one time...


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## goldstar31

Do you mean a spinning lathe or a spinning lathe?
Gave me quite a turn


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## terryd

JimDobson said:


> Mate, you're going over the top. Its a 1" dremel saw blade held by its arbor with a pair of multigrips.



Why do you have a problem using a safer tool?  A 1" dremel blade coming loose or fracturing in a situation it is not designed for would make a nice mess of an unprotected eye.  And before you say that wouln't happen, that's what they all said before the accident.  As for filing on the lathe, the file is controlled by both hands making it stable.  The file does not spin in a makeshift holder.

The cavalier attitude that some have here has reminded me of an incident in a School near me.  a student feigned tapping a mate opposite on the head with a file, not meaning to hit.  But the file came out of the handle spun and embedded the tang between the vertebrae in the back ot the neck of another.  He wsa paralysed but it wasn't a problem for him as he died a week later.  So never say "it won't happen", Murphy's law proves otherwise.

TerryD


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## BaronJ

Hi Terry,

I saw a guy loose most of the fingers on one hand whilst changing a planer blade and pulling the drive belt with the other.  Not very pretty at all !  the blood stains were there for quite a while.

I once saw a lathe operator drop a spanner whilst the lathe was running. It landed on the rotating chuck and luckily it missed his face and hit his shoulder.

The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger !  A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck !  The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder.  That is what its there for.

Unfortunately Jim can't see that !  I shall no longer bother visiting his web site.


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## goldstar31

In the Good Old Days, there was Model Engineer magazine which before publication had the contributions  usually from experts, edited again- by an expert whose work is still revered tpoday. None other than 'Ned' Westbury.
What was published---- was worth publishing.
I once( only once) had an articles published. Today I note that I have 917 'likes' recorded in my favour.
It's an odious comparison of standards of then and now.

John's comments today brought my thoughts into perspective. A few others seem to find agreement.


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## Cogsy

BaronJ said:


> The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger !  A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck !  The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder.  That is what its there for.



Joe Pie has a video on filing in the lathe and has some very interesting demos of the file touching the chuck and (usually) being ejected rather than grabbed. Personally, even though I love most of Joe's videos, I don't like his practice of filing with his left arm over the rotating chuck. In my opinion this is very dangerous and I would think most would agree, however he doesn't seem to cop a lot of flak over it and we continue to watch, and learn, from his videos.

As an aside, some of the scariest moments I've had on the lathe have come from sanding rather than 'normal' lathe work. Getting a rap on the knuckles from a spinning chuck is never a nice feeling. It seems to me that the simpler the action we are performing the less attention we give it and the more dangerous it becomes. I know I'm hyper-vigilant when I'm filing under power and I've never had a close call because of that.


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## JimDobson

BaronJ said:


> Hi Terry,
> 
> I saw a guy *loose* most of the fingers on one hand whilst changing a planer blade and pulling the drive belt with the other.  Not very pretty at all !  the blood stains were there for quite a while.
> 
> I once saw a lathe operator drop a spanner whilst the lathe was running. It landed on the rotating chuck and luckily it missed his face and hit his shoulder.
> 
> The fact that hand held vise grips were used is the danger !  A slip or a moment of inattention and they could easily be caught by the rotating chuck !  The correct thing would have been to secure the tool in the tool holder.  That is what its there for.
> 
> Unfortunately Jim can't see that !  *I shall no longer bother visiting his web site*.



Its 'lose' not 'loose'.

Thanks for not visiting my website anymore, much appreciated (I didn't even know that I had a 'website').


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## JimDobson

terryd said:


> The cavalier attitude that some have here ........
> 
> TerryD



Nothing to do with being cavalier, its being a practical person in the *home* workshop.


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## JimDobson

Cogsy said:


> I'm also struggling to see what people are getting so worked up about here.



Its actually starting to become quite interesting. I'm looking forward to the next round of bizarre anecdotes cited.


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## terryd

What I found really interesting was the unusual, in the modern day, of the use of the term 'stippling' which is generally reserved to describe a painting technique these days ,at least in the UK.  I would see it as knurling using the saw blade as a very narrow knurl.

What you get up to in your own workshop is your own business, fine, endanger yourself as often as you like  Most of us 'moaning' is due to the fact that you advertise such a cavalier - yes cavalier despite your protestations - approach to such work which may influence the same approach to newcomers who have little experience in using machine tools, when there are much safer methods to achieve a similar end.

TerryD


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## goldstar31

Of course, TerryD is right. 
Might I humbly suggest that this post is not locked but removed completely? .


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## Steamchick

Jim, Having worked in industry (and as a Safety officer on a construction site) I appreciate that there are competent people and the majority - just less competent and with less common sense. Teaching Grandma not to pick-up the kettle without a cloth is a waste of breath, but teaching the "14 year old lad in a hurry" is much more worthwhile... I agree with the "safety minded" comments that are expressed here, as many who use these threads are less competent - which is why they use the threads. We (well maybe I count among the "less competent"?) who post advice and instructions should always caution on the side of safety. If we have any consideration for others it should naturally come first. I was taught (by toolmakers - from 12 years old) to "Learn and listen" to discover the "correct way"... Any "short-cuts" should only be discovered when the "correct way" is understood, and the risks and consequences of the short-cuts are adequately explained. I used to get "a clip" if I followed "Johnny's short-cut" before I had adequately learned the "correct way". So (to all) - on behalf of all of us learning new techniques and methods - PLEASE teach us the "correct and safe way" first.
Incidentally, I was taught graving when I was 7... using a rest. (I did some yesterday to finish a mandrel on its final location for mounting a diamond wheel).
Also, for marking the surface of the aluminium wheel as requested originally.... I would use a Knurling tool very lightly on the aluminium surface. It did the trick on a dual disc forward-reverse mechanism on my boat..
Thanks to all contributors.
Ken


----------



## terryd

Hi Jim,

Not so much 'bizarre anecdotes' as actual descriptions of real life accidents - again describing them as 'bizarre' demonstrates another example of a cavalier attitude, they certainly aren't bizarre for the poor unfortunates involved.  Most of the stories point to the fact that the unexpected does happen.  Any bizarre technique such as yours is safe, until it's not.

Her's one from todays news for you to have a good laugh at:









						Police officer raiding illegal cockfight gets killed by rooster
					

Lt Christine Bolok was struck by a gaffed rooster on his left thigh, slicing his femoral artery.



					www.bbc.com
				




TerryD

P.S. Following the 'bizarre incident' with the file that I described and you so lightly dismiss as an anecdote.  All of the colleges and schools in the authority adjacent to theone where the accident happened and where I lectured at the time were quickly equipped with expensive screw on Swiss file handles to prevent a possible re-occurance of the incident as the compensation paid out by our neighbouring Authority was huge.  Howevr in my home workshop I use traditional wooden ones.

TD


----------



## willray

Cogsy said:


> I'm also struggling to see what people are getting so worked up about here. The 'cutter' was being held in a pair of multigrips (which I often trust enough to do various jobs involving molten metal work and have a far more reliable handle than a wooden leatherworking tool) so hands were nowhere near the spinning chuck, which is the biggest hazard in my opinion. Plus, the 'cutter' itself was a very low weight blade and not spinning at terribly high RPM, so it had little rotational momentum. If he had let the thing go while in contact with the part, it would (in my estimation) been kicked away from the workpiece and very quickly stopped rotating. If it had somehow contacted skin before it stopped it contained so little energy that it was unlikely to do any damage. As long as he was wearing eye protection I don't think there was much risk.



I'm sorry, but did you actually _watch_ the video, or are you just arguing with the "safety nazis" just because you think they're safety nazis?

The cutter was being held in a pair of (modern-day irwin's version of) channel-lock pliers, which rely on grip strength to hold the part.  The forces applied were out of the plane of the jaws, and in the weakest possible direction for channel-lock type pliers - a direction in which I've experienced _plenty _of things pivot, even when I thought I was being a gorilla on the handles.

His knuckle is within 1/2 inch of the rotating dremel saw, while the saw is being driven by the work.

It's blatantly obvious - because it happens in the video - that it's easy to slip off the end of the work, and because of the force "pushing into" the work to get the saw to act as a knurl, there's a lot of surprise excess motion when that slip happens.  Plenty of motion to drive his finger into the saw, or the saw into the work at an unexpected angle, etc.  The only reason this wasn't a video about a gashed knuckle, is because of luck.

At the same time his fingers are within 1/2 inch of the driven saw blade, they're less than an inch from the chuck jaws.

Using the dremel saw blade as a knurl is a clever expedient, exactly the kind of thing for which this site exists.

Defending the way that it was used, and pretending that it's acceptable to promote that approach as a reasonable and safe way to use the tool, is patently insane.


----------



## IanN

Cogsy said:


> Joe Pie has a video on filing in the lathe and has some very interesting demos of the file touching the chuck and (usually) being ejected rather than graven though I love most of Joe's videos, I don't like his practice of filing with his left arm over the rotating chuck.



Hi,

The problem with filing in the lathe is the risk of the tip of the file hitting a chuck jaw and being forced in to the soft squidgy human holding the file.  As long as you hold the work in a collet (never a chuck with jaws) and use a "lathe file" rather than the usual mill file, and you never lean your left arm over the rotating parts, there is only a moderately high risk of injury

But then Joe Pie also “blows down” his machines using an air line - one of the stupidest things you can do in a workshop - so always treat his videos with caution

All the best
Ian


----------



## dnalot

Nature has a way of winnowing out the weaker amongst us. Best to just leave this alone and let nature take its course, strengthening future generations. And it frees up some good used tools. I got a hell of a deal on a table saw that some dude lost some fingers with. 

Mark T


----------



## terryd

Hi Ian,

I completely agree with your comment on using compressed air to blow down a machine.  Two main reasons, it can force small swarf particles into unseen places on the machine where they should never get and secondly it does a great job of embedding said swarf into the surface of the eyeball.  I use cheap 1" paintbrushes to clean down which takes a couple of minutes longer but is safer.  

At the risk of being 'anecdotal', on our induction week as engineering technical apprentices in the very early 1960s we had a series of safety films.  One of which was film of an eye operation to remove a piece of swarf which had been forced into the interior of the eye with compressed air clean down - a fairly common accident then.  After nearly 60 years I can still visualise the close up of the eye with the lid clamps forcing it open and the scalpel cutting into the surface of the eyeball.  I wasn't sick but several others were.

TerryD


----------



## IanN

willray said:


> :
> Defending the way that [the Dremel saw blade] was used, and pretending that it's acceptable to promote that approach as a reasonable and safe way to use the tool, is patently insane.



Hi,

The one thing that amazes me about the exchange on this topic is the total lack of acknowledgement from some posters that there is an issue.

In most forums, if you point out a potential issue the original poster usually responds with some degree of civil comment along the lines of “Thanks for pointing that out - I had not thought of that aspect and you have raised a valid point ......”. Instead we have an immediate confrontation “I right, you are an idiot for even thinking of questioning my opinion.....”

In this thread someone made a comment along the lines of ‘surely you don’t wear eye protection when using a hacksaw!’  There is absolutely no point in trying to explain to someone with that mind set that a hacksaw blade has a cutting edge made of very hard and brittle material - if (when) the blade snaps, tiny fragments spray in all directions....

There will always be some people who cannot accept any view other than their own and there is little point in trying to inform them
All the best,
Ian


----------



## fcheslop

The thread has far more attention than it deserves or would have received if the job had been done in a safe manner
Horses and water comes to mind 
Keep well n safe


----------



## JimDobson

Very interesting to witness this massive divide in practicality between countries, I posted this on the largest Aussie engineering & machining group there is and mentioned some of the comments and thoughts that have been espoused here......very *very* different reaction from fellow Aussies.


----------



## Steamchick

Curious how when you read history, there is usually someone who thinks "it can never happen" - even after disasters occur. And so many disasters occur because someone who should have known better "didn't think it would matter"... e.g. Space shuttle explosions (because they flew when the book said "don't fly when the temperature is below ..."), Chernobyl ("Don't operate in this temperature range as it may run-away"...), Windscale, 3 -mile island, etc..... so it is not just in the home workshop that people ignore good advice from those with different experience.
Insurance companies gamble that disasters will happen, but the gamble is "when"...
On these Threads, we (the responsible? - including me) should endeavour to make things as safe as possible for the "uninitiated" (dare I say "innocent? - including me) readers who may not have the experience of how easy a "simple" job can become a disaster, and minimise "risky" advice. That is all anyone is really doing here...
Count your fingers before and after doing jobs with sharp knives. - Just in case....
K2


----------



## goldstar31

But Ken( Steamchicken), the civilised world needs people who 'make mistakes' like 'Jim' and true to his type, he is showing other people to perpetuate his recommendations. Whether we like it or not  we agree, they will continue- regardless of those 'good-doers'
So yesterday,  I wss simply 'playing' in the workshop enjoying an uneventful assembling a motor  and belt  and whatever to makea tool and cutter run again. Frankly, I'm sorry to bore everybody.  It was all to plan and that was that.
This morning the news broke that TWO pharmaceutical firms  have future orders for supply the WORLD with vaccines.  Great, I'm absolutely fed up with being deprived of enjoying what remains of my long life.
I'd wanted to 'have dinner in the best gentleman's club in Hong Kong' and with a bit more luck to go on a cruise and change out of my dirty, oily corduroys and perhaps 'cross the Tasmania' whatever that is.
I've worked bloody hard to be in such a position to do all of them but have looked after my family and its future and gained a lot of lovely friends. 
So all that is left is to wait for 'Jim' to need medication for his inevitable 'self inflicted injuries' I'm am an old trooper- I've been there.

So all that I have to do is sit back and enjoy the dividends coming from one of those pharmaceuticals and also from yet another similar firm.

So thank you 'Jim' and the rest of you. I do appreciate  just how valuable to society.

Your contribution has also greatly helped to fund research into things of which we have no control.

 Oh yes, indeed! What would we do without the 'Jims' of this World?


----------



## Jules

An interesting thread. 
Many things in life have a degree of risk. 
Jim lives in a country that had many dangerous snakes, spiders etc. 
I know only to well how a simple operation with a powered tool can result in injury even when taking what you perceive to be enough care. 
However I also enjoy watching many videos on the internet of people teaching skills Or demonstrating their skills.....Maybe doing stunts on a mountain bike.......or tricks flying a helicopter........
Some countries of the world still use massive heavy unguarded machines to produce many of the cheap items we like to buy.  
My point is....In some countries we have evolved our use of machinery and place a high priority on safety. 
I think we should be a little more tolerant of differing standards.


----------



## jack620

JimDobson said:


> Very interesting to witness this massive divide in practicality between countries, I posted this on the largest Aussie engineering & machining group there is and mentioned some of the comments and thoughts that have been espoused here......very *very* different reaction from fellow Aussies.



Which forum is that Jim? I’m only aware of Metal Work Forums where I’m a regular, and I haven’t seen you there.


----------



## jack620

Regarding Jim’s video, it’s not how I would have done it, but I don’t care what other people do in their own workshop. I don’t care if they video it either. There are people fitting pulse jets to bicycles and posting videos of themselves riding it. That doesn’t mean I’m tempted to do it. Anyone familiar with YouTube knows you don’t take everything you see as gospel.

And to be honest, the pile-on I’ve just witnessed over the last few pages is nothing short of disgraceful. And how the hell did we get from a video of a man using his lathe in a questionable manner to Chernobyl? Ridiculous.


----------



## jack620

dnalot said:


> Nature has a way of winnowing out the weaker amongst us. Best to just leave this alone and let nature take its course, strengthening future generations. And it frees up some good used tools.



Uncalled for comment. Let he who has not sinned......


----------



## Steamchick

Fair comment Jack. I was throwing that in to give this some perspective.... 
Both actions seemed OK to the operators with their experience.. but hindsight suggests the Chernobyl operator should have considered... "maybe not ".  Being fair, we all do things we should not teach our children, but maybe we can all - or collectively - be self- censoring when we overstep the mark of sensible actions?


----------



## willray

JimDobson said:


> Very interesting to witness this massive divide in practicality between countries, I posted this on the largest Aussie engineering & machining group there is and mentioned some of the comments and thoughts that have been espoused here......very *very* different reaction from fellow Aussies.



I can see that.  If I were to show one of my friends something equally dumb-but-not-life-threatening, I'm pretty sure that a good number of them would be saying "Yup, Go for it Will!  Here, I'll hold your beer!"


----------



## Cogsy

willray said:


> I'm sorry, but did you actually _watch_ the video, or are you just arguing with the "safety nazis" just because you think they're safety nazis?


Nothing to be sorry about. I skimmed the video (it's a bad habit I have) but I have since gone back and viewed the relevant bits to make sure I didn't miss anything.



willray said:


> The cutter was being held in a pair of (modern-day irwin's version of) channel-lock pliers, which rely on grip strength to hold the part.  The forces applied were out of the plane of the jaws, and in the weakest possible direction for channel-lock type pliers - a direction in which I've experienced _plenty _of things pivot, even when I thought I was being a gorilla on the handles.



I agree the force was being applied in the weakest direction of the tool, I don't agree on the name of the tool (because we call them 'multigrips' in this country).



willray said:


> His knuckle is within 1/2 inch of the rotating dremel saw, while the saw is being driven by the work.


I think 1/2 inch is understating it a bit, but his fingers were close.



willray said:


> It's blatantly obvious - because it happens in the video - that it's easy to slip off the end of the work, and because of the force "pushing into" the work to get the saw to act as a knurl, there's a lot of surprise excess motion when that slip happens.  Plenty of motion to drive his finger into the saw, or the saw into the work at an unexpected angle, etc.  The only reason this wasn't a video about a gashed knuckle, is because of luck.


If the tool slips off but stays secure in the multigrips which he is holding, there's no way for the blade to get to his fingers, and if it slips off it is no longer driven so won't have enough momentum to cause much of an injury. If the blade pivots in the multigrips, as we both suspect is possible, the blade could still be driven and may come in to contact with his finger. However, it will also come into contact with the side of the multigrips and this will a) stop it going deeper into his finger and b) stop the blade quickly as he lets go of the whole thing. There'd possibly be an injury but it's likely to be slight. Honestly, I end up with a 'gash'  that needs patching at least every couple of weeks, either from bumping  a milling cutter, sliding my finger along something I shouldn't or just bashing into something hard. If I don't have to stop working for more than a few minutes then I don't consider it a bad enough injury to worry about.



willray said:


> At the same time his fingers are within 1/2 inch of the driven saw blade, they're less than an inch from the chuck jaws.


Isn't this incredibly common, even routine? Mine get far closer when I'm sanding or sometimes filing a workpiece.



willray said:


> Using the dremel saw blade as a knurl is a clever expedient, exactly the kind of thing for which this site exists.
> 
> Defending the way that it was used, and pretending that it's acceptable to promote that approach as a reasonable and safe way to use the tool, is patently insane.


I believe there was some risk of injury during this process, but I don't believe it was as heinous as some are suggesting. I also would not recommend a beginner attempt anything like this - just as I wouldn't recommend a beginner do any filing under power, graving, metal spinning or even aluminium casting.

I also don't recommend anyone follow some of the things we commonly see and hear about on the forum from (sometimes) very experienced builders/machinists. For example, we see plenty of photos and videos with visible jewelry, people using and advocating emery cloth for sanding a rotating part and even people defending their use of compressed air to clear chips because "I've been doing it for years".


----------



## STEVEJ

Hilarious!!! Best thread I have ever read here!


----------



## willray

Jules said:


> ...
> Many things in life have a degree of risk.
> ...
> However I also enjoy watching many videos on the internet of people teaching skills Or demonstrating their skills.....Maybe doing stunts on a mountain bike.......or tricks flying a helicopter........



I seriously hope that no-one here is engaging in the "sport" of machining for the adrenaline-rush of leaving the shop at the end of the day with all of their fingers still attached!

If you are, I'm gonna suggest that you _might_ be doing it wrong...


----------



## terryd

Cogsy said:


> Nothing to be sorry about. I skimmed the video (it's a bad habit I have) but I have since gone back and viewed the relevant bits to make sure I didn't miss anything.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree the force was being applied in the weakest direction of the tool, I don't agree on the name of the tool (because we call them 'multigrips' in this country).
> 
> 
> I think 1/2 inch is understating it a bit, but his fingers were close.
> 
> 
> If the tool slips off but stays secure in the multigrips which he is holding, there's no way for the blade to get to his fingers, and if it slips off it is no longer driven so won't have enough momentum to cause much of an injury. If the blade pivots in the multigrips, as we both suspect is possible, the blade could still be driven and may come in to contact with his finger. However, it will also come into contact with the side of the multigrips and this will a) stop it going deeper into his finger and b) stop the blade quickly as he lets go of the whole thing. There'd possibly be an injury but it's likely to be slight. Honestly, I end up with a 'gash'  that needs patching at least every couple of weeks, either from bumping  a milling cutter, sliding my finger along something I shouldn't or just bashing into something hard. If I don't have to stop working for more than a few minutes then I don't consider it a bad enough injury to worry about.
> 
> 
> Isn't this incredibly common, even routine? Mine get far closer when I'm sanding or sometimes filing a workpiece.
> 
> 
> I believe there was some risk of injury during this process, but I don't believe it was as heinous as some are suggesting. I also would not recommend a beginner attempt anything like this - just as I wouldn't recommend a beginner do any filing under power, graving, metal spinning or even aluminium casting.
> 
> I also don't recommend anyone follow some of the things we commonly see and hear about on the forum from (sometimes) very experienced builders/machinists. For example, we see plenty of photos and videos with visible jewelry, people using and advocating emery cloth for sanding a rotating part and even people defending their use of compressed air to clear chips because "I've been doing it for years".


Your comment about not recommending the process to a beginner is exactly the point that most of us were trying to emphasise.  If people are carrying out such fringe and dangerous techniques and publishing them for all to see there should be some qualifying message such as _"don't try this at home, I have years of experience and understand the dangers."_  Keith Appleby for one repeats such warnings frequently in his excellent videos as do many others.

In reply to another of your points, Jim uses a second finger to increase the pressure on the blade partway through the process and that finger is very close to the rotating saw, one slip while applying that force and the rotating blade is trapped between work and finger, damage is done in a fraction of a second in such a situation before one has the realisation that something is happening.
TD


----------



## STEVEJ




----------



## STEVEJ

I made this with a stippling tool held with grips and lathe spinning really fast!


----------



## terryd

Hi Steve,

Best argument yet,

TerryD


----------



## Jules

Anyone ever heard of Mount Everest ?
Bloody dangerous mountain. 
People try to climb it and some even die trying. 

Please be careful getting off you high horses guys. 
We wouldn’t want an accident !!!


----------



## Bentwings

I guess I missed the video.
But I’ve run aluminum veerepulleys on cars to where they broke s flange off.  Usually breaking the belt too.if the belt is slipping it’s usually caused b6 not enough wrap around the pulley.  As I recall the rule was less than 90 deg included angle. The most I ever did was lightly sand the groove with medium grit sand paper .pulley off and just hand sand a little. There used to be belt dressing  in the shop but it just gummed things up.  I also used the notched type belts as they bend easier.  I don’t touch anything rotating .
no loose clothing rings watch bands. One of my former employers was a master machinist. He had his watch in a button hole in his shirts. I didn’t think think even that was safe but he was the boss. A single comment about it could get you an hour lecture on shop safety.
I value m6 body parts and don’t like theER trips. Either for me or taking someone there.


----------



## jack620

Thank god some of you guys weren't at Kitty Hawk in 1903. I wouldn't have a job if you were.


----------



## JimDobson

Steamchick said:


> Chernobyl



Up to Chernobyl comparisons now.....can't wait to see what's next.


----------



## JimDobson

jack620 said:


> Thank god some of you guys weren't at Kitty Hawk in 1903. I wouldn't have a job if you were.



Best quote award.


----------



## Jules

jack620 said:


> Thank god some of you guys weren't at Kitty Hawk in 1903. I wouldn't have a job if you were.


Great comment, I nearly made reference to the very same moment. 
That aircraft had no guards over the drive chains and very little regard for crew safety........


----------



## coulsea

one of the reasons for the success of the human race is our huge variation which gives a range of people able to either take advantage of or survive most situations. the range of attitudes towards covid is a perfect example, people will never agree so it is up to our leaders to come up with rules that hopefully benefit society in general (will this happen to youtube on day). A lot of justifications are only half of the story, like what was wrong with a 1903 plane, obviously it was too dangerous to be of any practical use but someone had to try it and *learn* from it.
I read a study once about how discussions like this degrade to personal attacks until someone is said to be like Hitler and then the moderators end it.
It's been an interesting example of human nature. I had better go and make something useless in my workshop now.


----------



## Cogsy

coulsea said:


> I read a study once about how discussions like this degrade to personal attacks until someone is said to be like Hitler and then the moderators end it.


Absolutely the 'Hitler point' is a hard limit! Although I'm hoping we're respectful enough that it won't come to that...


----------



## STEVEJ

Jim. This has been the most amusing thing on here for as long as I have been a member. I know a lot of people have gone over the top with their comments.  I really hope that you are not offended.

Kind regards. Steve. X


----------



## minh-thanh

Hi Cogsy , My friend 


Cogsy said:


> If the tool slips off but stays secure in the multigrips which he is holding, there's no way for the blade to get to his fingers, and if it slips off it is no longer driven so won't have enough momentum to cause much of an injury. If the blade pivots in the multigrips, as we both suspect is possible, the blade could still be driven and may come in to contact with his finger. However, it will also come into contact with the side of the multigrips and this will a) stop it going deeper into his finger and b) stop the blade quickly as he lets go of the whole thing. There'd possibly be an injury but it's likely to be slight. Honestly, I end up with a 'gash' that needs patching at least every couple of weeks, either from bumping a milling cutter, sliding my finger along something I shouldn't or just bashing into something hard. If I don't have to stop working for more than a few minutes then I don't consider it a bad enough injury to worry about.



Hello my friend !
I don't know if you read my previous comment, !?
*For someone who has tried that method, I understand the sensation of a saw blade sharpening grinding into my skin
One  problem is : If a person is completely new (or very inexperienced, or he doesn't mind speed ... ...), he just skimmed  the video and has a lathe, and he do the same but at higher speeds (500, 1000 rpm ..) and what happens when he makes a mistake ??
The point here is: why are there so many better, safer methods ... that everyone suggested were overlooked ??

And why choose between if : mildly injured and uninjured ?? 
.........*

PS : Hi All !
I am not a safety expert or professional mechanic ... I used to do even more stupid things, and went to the doctor three times as a result of those stupid things


----------



## justintime

STEVEJ said:


> I made this with a stippling tool held with grips and lathe spinning really fast!


----------



## terryd

jack620 said:


> Thank god some of you guys weren't at Kitty Hawk in 1903. I wouldn't have a job if you were.



Yes, point taken, but many died before Kittyhawk - Wright Bros weren't working in a vacuum but on the shoulders of their predecessors - and many have died since.  Hope it wasn't one of your components or systems that was at fault in any of those situations unlike the Boeing cobbled up software - "it'll be ok".



JimDobson said:


> Up to Chernobyl comparisons now.....can't wait to see what's next.



Hi Jim,

you just don't get it do you, "there are non so blind as those that will not see", or so my old dad used to say bless him.

TerryD


----------



## deverett

Whatever happened to 'Common sense' ?
Unfortunately it is not very common these days.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


----------



## goldstar31

A Moment of Glory or perhaps Gory!


----------



## terryd

deverett said:


> Whatever happened to 'Common sense' ?
> Unfortunately it is not very common these days.
> 
> Dave
> The Emerald Isle



Hi Dave,

Up to Victorian times 'common sense' said that cholera and the plague etc were spread by bad smells so people carried pomanders or small posies (hence the street  flower girls in London - think Eliza Doolittle) for protection. 

'Common sense' said that metal boats wouldn't float until someone realised that Archimedes had demonstrated the phenomenon of displacement.

Common sense may be common but it often isn't sense.

TerryD


----------



## JimDobson

STEVEJ said:


> Jim. This has been the most amusing thing on here for as long as I have been a member. I know a lot of people have gone over the top with their comments.  I really hope that you are not offended.
> 
> Kind regards. Steve. X




G'day Steve, offended no, amused _*greatly*_. Hugely interested to see just how far a group of people (who by their responses and human nature, have turned into a short term thread gang) will struggle to bolster each of their very public and very conspicuously bizarre stances.


----------



## jack620

JimDobson said:


> ... a short term thread gang



There is a whiff of Lord Of The Flies in this thread.


----------



## SteveM

I'm astonished and saddened at the ludicrous criticism Jim's video has generated. It was an interesting take on something he wanted to achieve, short and sweet and impossible to see how any sort of serious injury could have occurred. I spent 30 years in the Fire Service and another decade in fire safety and H&S so I'm aware that people often do stupid things and get hurt. But Jim was not going to seriously hurt himself or anyone else. And come on - nobody in their right mind would see it and think it safe to upscale it to the risk of dismemberment.

I sometimes wonder how the H&S devotees of this world ever find anything interesting to watch. In their world every video would be twice as long to include the necessary disclaimers and advisories _(now this is relatively safe, but if you used a bigger sharper tool or a spinny thing spinning really fast - then you risk another Chernobyl!!!). _And half the the videos from Abom or ToT or Robin or Cogsy or Stefan or AVE or the like would be X-rated. In the perfect H&S world videos about diving in the ocean or rugby or machining would be banned, because it it is simply not possible to do any of these things without some element of risk. Watching cricket would be a nightmare seeing 'DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME' flashed on the screen whenever someone whacks a six.

I hate this expression and have never used it in print before but really - some of you need to get a life.

Thanks for posting Jim. I like to see your work and how you do it.


----------



## KellisRJ

terryd said:


> Yes, point taken, but many died before Kittyhawk - Wright Bros weren't working in a vacuum but on the shoulders of their predecessors - and many have died since.  Hope it wasn't one of your components or systems that was at fault in any of those situations unlike the Boeing cobbled up software - "it'll be ok".


I was a pilot & logistician in the US Army and once a maintenance tech. Long story . . .  Whenever I heard someone say "it'll be ok" I knew with 100% surety they weren't planning on being there when the fecal matter started spraying. Once turned down an aircraft when the mechanic, who had probably been doing it a long time, retorqued a bolt in the *rotor head* *assembly *without writing it up or getting a tech inspector to sign it off. Didn't argue with him. But the Main. officer was royally hacked off that I spoiled his time-to-maintenance flow demanding another aircraft. Until I returned. Then he sheepishly showed me a *steel* shaft 2/3 gone eaten away by an aluminum crank arm. A ticking time bomb if ever I saw one. Yea "It'll be OK."

Ron


----------



## jack620

terryd said:


> Hope it wasn't one of your components or systems that was at fault in any of those situations unlike the Boeing cobbled up software - "it'll be ok".



I fly them, I don't build them. I take risks in my workshop I would never dream of taking in a cockpit with 500 passengers behind me.

I still don't understand why some posters here are trying to equate one man in his home workshop to nuclear and aviation disasters.


----------



## JimDobson

jack620 said:


> There is a whiff of Lord Of The Flies in this thread.



Yes, Orwellian.


----------



## deeferdog

The most sensible post in this saga? SteveM gets my vote by a long chalk. Lets all get back to what we like doing. Cheers, Peter


----------



## Mike Ginn

SteveM is spot on.  We modellers are use to working with rotating machines.  Myford sell a chuck guard which I purchased.  Its just not usable and is in the junk box.  The first thing I did with my mill was to remove the guards along with most modellers.  You have got to use common sense and be aware, so keep your fingers away from cutters and chucks.  I don’t see anything wrong with Jim’s approach to stippling and I really don’t see the danger, if we accept that we all use unguarded slit saws.  Remember that the mass associated with slit saws is very small.   If you apply risk assessment and so-called H&S to our workshops then you might as well shut up shop.  H&S is so often applied by folk with little workshop experience!


----------



## goldstar31

As I am very old and also a high Covid 19 risk in lockdown. 
Her husband, my son in law is a senior heart consultant  working in surgery in a full Covid-19 ward.
My daughter is a consultant dentist working in people's mouths.

Yes, may I utter 'Get a Life'


----------



## willray

Mike Ginn said:


> SteveM is spot on.
> ...
> You have got to use common sense and be aware, so keep your fingers away from cutters and chucks.
> ...
> I don’t see anything wrong with Jim’s approach to stippling...



The number of people defending "Jim's approach", who seem to have not actually watched the video, is rather depressing.

I am truly disheartened by SteveM, Cogsy, and the rest of the crowd who seem to think that it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment.

People saying "keep your fingers away from chucks and cutters" are not being "H&S"/OSHA/what-have-you nazis, they're saying "keep your fingers away from cutters and chucks".  You yourself said it up there.

Unfortunately, when they first mentioned that Jim's approach put fingers near both driven cutters and chucks, and additionally results in rapid unexpected movement of the hands near those cutters and chucks, making the approach rather more risky than other (already risky) operations that involve the fingers near cutters and chucks,  Jim's response was "Wut???  Dinna cut muhself, mus be safe you meathead!".

And now you're defending that, without even knowing what you're defending.

Apparently we should have taken the "Horse, meet water" comment back on page 1 more to heart.


----------



## terryd

KellisRJ said:


> I was a pilot & logistician in the US Army and once a maintenance tech. Long story . . .  Whenever I heard someone say "it'll be ok" I knew with 100% surety they weren't planning on being there when the fecal matter started spraying. Once turned down an aircraft when the mechanic, who had probably been doing it a long time, retorqued a bolt in the *rotor head* *assembly *without writing it up or getting a tech inspector to sign it off. Didn't argue with him. But the Main. officer was royally hacked off that I spoiled his time-to-maintenance flow demanding another aircraft. Until I returned. Then he sheepishly showed me a *steel* shaft 2/3 gone eaten away by an aluminum crank arm. A ticking time bomb if ever I saw one. Yea "It'll be OK."
> 
> Ron


Hi Ron,

Be careful you may be branded as bizarre by telling such tales or as an overzealous H&S guru  ;-0



SteveM said:


> I'm astonished and saddened at the ludicrous criticism Jim's video has generated. It was an interesting take on something he wanted to achieve, short and sweet and impossible to see how any sort of serious injury could have occurred. I spent 30 years in the Fire Service and another decade in fire safety and H&S so I'm aware that people often do stupid things and get hurt. But Jim was not going to seriously hurt himself or anyone else. And come on - nobody in their right mind would see it and think it safe to upscale it to the risk of dismemberment.
> 
> I sometimes wonder how the H&S devotees of this world ever find anything interesting to watch. In their world every video would be twice as long to include the necessary disclaimers and advisories _(now this is relatively safe, but if you used a bigger sharper tool or a spinny thing spinning really fast - then you risk another Chernobyl!!!). _And half the the videos from Abom or ToT or Robin or Cogsy or Stefan or AVE or the like would be X-rated. In the perfect H&S world videos about diving in the ocean or rugby or machining would be banned, because it it is simply not possible to do any of these things without some element of risk. Watching cricket would be a nightmare seeing 'DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME' flashed on the screen whenever someone whacks a six.
> 
> I hate this expression and have never used it in print before but really - some of you need to get a life.
> 
> Thanks for posting Jim. I like to see your work and how you do it.



What utter tosh about the attitude of some of us to safety   I really have not heard nsuch rubbish since I last heard a certain US president;'s speech.  You obviously have never seen a Keith Appleby video, a professional steam engine builder as well as an excellent musician.  He has a huge number of videos which he makes to help others.

Such adolescent attitudes that you and some others have demonstrated her are beyond belief.  Such posts are the equivalent of the teenage 'Whatever' when caught out doing something wrong.

TerryD


----------



## minh-thanh

I think, we should end this thread !
Some say it's okay, some say it's not., ..some say it's not and then...
 We argue and insult each other like ,,,, ....
So do what you feel is okay and get the results you want to be fine !
You feel it's ok then it will be ok !
There are many things that we need to be mindful of: work, projects ... and there is a lot of new information on the forum to see.
That's my final opinion in this thread !
Anyway, I learned something ... Thanks,.


----------



## jack620

minh-thanh said:


> So do what you feel is okay and get the results you want to be fine !
> You feel it's ok then it will be ok !



I like the way you think minh. The world would be a better place if more people were like you.


----------



## jack620

terryd said:


> I really have not heard nsuch rubbish since I last heard a certain US president;'s speech.



What? You invoked Trump in a thread about metalwork? Trying to link someone you disagree with to a divisive public figure to try and discredit their ideas is a low form of debate. Poor form.


----------



## jack620

willray said:


> I am truly disheartened by SteveM, Cogsy, and the rest of the crowd who seem to think that *it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment.*


(my bold)

Nowhere in this thread has anyone said that. It would be great if some of you stopped making stuff up and engaging in ridiculous exaggerations.


----------



## willray

jack620 said:


> Nowhere in this thread has anyone said [*it's not worth trying to avoid accidents or unsafe practices unless they're likely to result in dismemberment*]. It would be great if some of you stopped making stuff up and engaging in ridiculous exaggerations.





SteveM said:


> ...Jim was not going to seriously hurt himself or anyone else. And come on - nobody in their right mind would see it and think it safe to upscale it to the risk of dismemberment.



Which is to say, SteveM feels it's inappropriate that people are suggesting that the method at least deserves a mention of caution, since it's not going to lead to dismemberment.

I won't wait for an apology.


----------



## JimDobson

terryd said:


> * You obviously have never seen a Keith Appleby video*, a professional steam engine builder as well as an excellent musician.  He has a huge number of videos which he makes to help others.



ROFLMAO with this one. Keith just LOVES taking the mickey out of anyone who takes umbrage at the way HE does things in HIS workshop.
He gives the H&S responders to his Youtube channel (sometimes people will refer to these folks after a town name in northeastern France) some excellent serves with his very special flavour of dry humour and wit......looks like it goes over some peoples heads!!!!


----------



## jack620

willray said:


> I won't wait for an apology.



That's wise, because none is due. You took SteveM's comment out of context.


----------



## Jules

This is now sadly deteriorating as predicted. 
There is no right or wrong!!!
There are just different opinions. 
Some people think people like Jim are responsible for nuclear disasters !!!
Showing the video won’t cause a world disaster, if someone feels it needs the “Keith Appleton” approach then add a comment for novice machine users. 
Perhaps even suggest the benefit to Jim to evolve his technique to use a more ridged tool holding system. 
After all none of us likes to remake a part due to damage caused by a slip or something breaking.


----------



## terryd

Hi,

The origin of this thread was obviously Steve's use of an inappropriate technique, and it was inappropriate in all sorts of ways not the least that he admitted he was also working around a tripod and camera which he didn't use for the final component because of the inconvenience.  However that said, he is working on his own in a private workshop and whatever he decides to do is ok.  The real point that most of us are making that it is not ok to publicise such techniques on a public platform where there are possibly less experienced beginners may access it..

Steve makes the point that we are all modellers used to rotating machinery, point taken But there are those who are beginning the use of lathes and milling machines etc without the benefit of previous experience or instruction who usually look to sources like YouTube for instruction and inspiration.  I'm lucky that I had a 5 year apprenticeship, worked in a machine shop and toolroom for years and have many years experience in teaching and lecturing young people and I can confirm that 'sense' ain't very 'common'.  I would also like to point out that there are many accidents in industry causing injury to those who are well experienced in using machinery.  It is not an onerous task to add safety comments in an instructional video such as those by Keith Appleby I have mentioned before, his safety comments are light hearted and amusing but instructional.  The macho amongst us would be well advised to watch a few of his very professional videos.

As for the machismo demonstrated in comments such as we couldn't watch cricket if we were worried about someone hitting a six is on a par with the comments - taken out of context - about Chernobyl.  In that example I must admit it is  bit sad watching the H&S in action on the cricket field with all that leg and body padding, thick gloves, helmets with guards and boxes worn by batters and close fielders - wimps, what's wrong with getting a bit of concussion or losing a few teeth or a broken jaw, perhaps a couple of smashed fingers, or even catching one in the goolies thus affecting their breeding chances.

Stay safe, be a wimp protect others and wear a mask

TerryD


----------



## terryd

By the way to those who think that some of the safety stories on here are made up, I can assure you that all of the examples I quoted were true, real incidents and I could have quoted quite a few more examples from my 60 odd years in industry and education, some of which are very gory involving heavy machinery and fragile flesh and bone.  Many of these caused by taking short cuts by very experienced operators.  In fact it was their very experience, over confidence and familiarity which failed them.

As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap.  the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.



			Tesla driver caught asleep behind wheel of self-driving car going 93mph
		


TerryD


----------



## Cogsy

terryd said:


> Hi,
> 
> The origin of this thread was obviously Steve's use of an inappropriate technique, and it was inappropriate in all sorts of ways not the least that he admitted he was also working around a tripod and camera which he didn't use for the final component because of the inconvenience.  However that said, he is working on his own in a private workshop and whatever he decides to do is ok.  The real point that most of us are making that it is not ok to publicise such techniques on a public platform where there are possibly less experienced beginners may access it..
> 
> Steve makes the point that we are all modellers used to rotating machinery, point taken But there are those who are beginning the use of lathes and milling machines etc without the benefit of previous experience or instruction who usually look to sources like YouTube for instruction and inspiration.  I'm lucky that I had a 5 year apprenticeship, worked in a machine shop and toolroom for years and have many years experience in teaching and lecturing young people and I can confirm that 'sense' ain't very 'common'.  I would also like to point out that there are many accidents in industry causing injury to those who are well experienced in using machinery.  It is not an onerous task to add safety comments in an instructional video such as those by Keith Appleby I have mentioned before, his safety comments are light hearted and amusing but instructional.  The macho amongst us would be well advised to watch a few of his very professional videos.
> 
> As for the machismo demonstrated in comments such as we couldn't watch cricket if we were worried about someone hitting a six is on a par with the comments - taken out of context - about Chernobyl.  In that example I must admit it is  bit sad watching the H&S in action on the cricket field with all that leg and body padding, thick gloves, helmets with guards and boxes worn by batters and close fielders - wimps, what's wrong with getting a bit of concussion or losing a few teeth or a broken jaw, perhaps a couple of smashed fingers, or even catching one in the goolies thus affecting their breeding chances.
> 
> Stay safe, be a wimp protect others and wear a mask
> 
> TerryD



This type of reply is my main issue with this thread. It's an obvious personal dig at the original poster, and any others who don't agree with your view, which is composed with such fervour that you couldn't even get the OP's name correct (it's Jim, not Steve). Yet it does not add anything to the discussion and wanders far off-topic.

Ostensibly, people are taking umbrage at what they perceive as a risky or dangerous practice, but I believe it is really about a perception of not being listened to.

Terry - in this thread so far, you have advocated for using a cheap (and presumably flimsy) eBay leatherworking tool, with a wooden handle, instead of Jim's method. With this tool, if it failed during use, Jim's hands would be closer to the chuck jaws and the pressure angle would have his fingers at least impacting the rotating workpiece, if not the chuck jaws as well. This doesn't seem a safer option but it is what you initially proposed. 

You have also advocated using hand-held emery cloth one a rotating workpiece (specifically not paper for some reason) which flies in the face of much safety literature and best practices, whilst claiming your years of training and teaching apprentices means your opinion is somehow more correct than others.
(Links to official emery cloth best practices from several countries: LINK, LINK, LINK, LINK).

Not every forum post, picture or video is intended for beginner modellers or machinists. If it were, none of us that have been here a while would learn anything. I also don't believe that we, as content generators, are inherently responsible for providing a laundry list of safety warnings just-in-case a beginner may watch a technique and decide to try to apply it while lacking basic skills or knowledge. We don't see the likes of Myfordboy, Joe Pie or Abom79 filling their videos with basic warnings - sure, if something has a hidden danger it may be mentioned (I'm again thinking emery cloth here) but basic machining knowledge is assumed.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts about manually manipulating conrods around pivot points to round off the ends on manual mills - an incredibly dangerous practice if not performed with adequate knowledge and care - yet this rarely draws a safety comment. Yet somehow this thread has blown up from it's humble beginnings - which, if anyone cares to go back to the first posts to refresh their memories - starts with a disagreement about whether the addition of the 'stippling' was a good idea or not. Funny that safety was only raised after the differences of opinion became evident.


----------



## Cogsy

terryd said:


> As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap.  the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.



Supposedly the North American vehicle fatality rate is 1.16 per million miles but with vehicles in autonomous mode it falls to only 1 per 320 million miles. So the car would have been less safe with a human driver - and driver fatigue is a huge factor in many fatalities, so a tired driver would be more likely to crash. In this example, common sense says the driver was safer having a sleep than driving his car. Common sense says that every vehicle should be self-driving and not even contain manual controls - they should also be able to communicate between vehicles in the immediate vicinity to coordinate their actions, improving traffic flow and saving thousands of lives every year. 

If we want to slag off safety procedures, and seeing as the incident has already been raised, Chernobyl was caused by an errant safety test gone awry. Had they not been testing the safety procedures, the reactor would have quite happily continued to run.


----------



## goldstar31

Correction please,
I raised the Health and Safety as the 3rd reply within hours of the original . Respfully the misconception is the 'InternationDate Line! And the fact that that the Sun goes around the Earth
Monday 15.43 Greenwich Mean Time 2nd November.


----------



## Jules

The facts are that Jim carried out his procedure without any injuries. 
The degree of repeatability of the process before it “Goes wrong.” Is the subject of clearly varying opinions. 
Those who think we should make videos “Beginner friendly,” aren’t familiar with the video content on line. 
You can watch someone making their own rocket fuel or riding their sports bike at 120+ mph on the rear wheel, many thousands of crazy things, without any warnings. 
If you can’t take responsibility for your own safety whilst using a machine then you shouldn’t use a machine.


----------



## terryd

Cogsy said:


> This type of reply is my main issue with this thread. It's an obvious personal dig at the original poster, and any others who don't agree with your view, which is composed with such fervour that you couldn't even get the OP's name correct (it's Jim, not Steve). Yet it does not add anything to the discussion and wanders far off-topic.
> 
> Ostensibly, people are taking umbrage at what they perceive as a risky or dangerous practice, but I believe it is really about a perception of not being listened to.
> 
> Terry - in this thread so far, you have advocated for using a cheap (and presumably flimsy) eBay leatherworking tool, with a wooden handle, instead of Jim's method. With this tool, if it failed during use, Jim's hands would be closer to the chuck jaws and the pressure angle would have his fingers at least impacting the rotating workpiece, if not the chuck jaws as well. This doesn't seem a safer option but it is what you initially proposed.
> 
> You have also advocated using hand-held emery cloth one a rotating workpiece (specifically not paper for some reason) which flies in the face of much safety literature and best practices, whilst claiming your years of training and teaching apprentices means your opinion is somehow more correct than others.
> (Links to official emery cloth best practices from several countries: LINK, LINK, LINK, LINK).
> 
> Not every forum post, picture or video is intended for beginner modellers or machinists. If it were, none of us that have been here a while would learn anything. I also don't believe that we, as content generators, are inherently responsible for providing a laundry list of safety warnings just-in-case a beginner may watch a technique and decide to try to apply it while lacking basic skills or knowledge. We don't see the likes of Myfordboy, Joe Pie or Abom79 filling their videos with basic warnings - sure, if something has a hidden danger it may be mentioned (I'm again thinking emery cloth here) but basic machining knowledge is assumed.
> 
> I've lost count of the number of times I've seen posts about manually manipulating conrods around pivot points to round off the ends on manual mills - an incredibly dangerous practice if not performed with adequate knowledge and care - yet this rarely draws a safety comment. Yet somehow this thread has blown up from it's humble beginnings - which, if anyone cares to go back to the first posts to refresh their memories - starts with a disagreement about whether the addition of the 'stippling' was a good idea or not. Funny that safety was only raised after the differences of opinion became evident.



Oh dear here we go again.

Dear Cogsy you really should read comments more carefully.  You make a point about the late introduction of posts regarding safety, if you had read the postings you might have noticed that the first safety message was in the third or fourth posting by Norman (Goldstar31) the following day after Jim's original one (and allowing for the time difference between Australia and th eUK it was a pretty prompt reply - well done Norman)  and the discussion of the merits of stippling only occupied a couple of short posts.

You accuse me of attacking Jim, please read my first paragraph again where I say what Jim does in his own workshop is up to him, but not to put it on a public platform where inexperienced beginners may take it as advice without a simple spoken warning.  I still believe the technique demonstrated was dangerous, for example apart from all the other dangers at point 1:30 on in the video for some time Jim is using his left hand to support his grips and increase the force and at that point his left forefinger was jus a few mm from the rotating blade and a slip could be disastrous if a few sinews were cut in the knuckle.

As for emery cloth on the lathe I use lengths approx 18 inches long from a reel 1 inch wide made specially for the job.  I hold the ends lightly at a distance of 6 to 8 inches from the work so that if it catches (unlikely but possible0 it is pulled from my fingers.  I certainly would not hold any wrap abrasive around the work itself which one has to do with paper, if I were to demostrate th process I would certainly discuss the safety aspects while working, it doesn't cost.  My technique was taught to me by very safety concious craftsmen, not amateurs working at home.  The only other abrasive material I might use is one of those emery coated sponge blocks whic h can safely be pressed against the work.  I also find it rather ironic if not amusing that I am being lectured on H&S by someone who spends so much time denying it.

As for the leather prickers they are not at all flimsy, especially when compared with q dreme saw,the wheels are around 3 - 4 mm thick when compared with a thin, hardened Dremel saw blade which is liable to shatter with sideways forces, held on a relatively long shaft by a bearing which is not designed for the sort of work demonstrated.  Having a wooden handle, a pricker allows the applied force to be in line with the tool not what was demonstrated using in a cantilevered situation.

You further accuse me of not getting names correct.  Again read my first paragraph and note that I called him JIM.  In the following paragaph I was addressing SteveM concerning his comments about safety comments spoiling a cricket match which I found ironic as teh batter and close fielders are a standing advert for H&S with all their protective equipment.  I am not responsible for your confusion but apologise if you didn't get my satire.

As for your ridiculous statement that not all postings or videos are not intended for beginners, who are you to know who watches and reads them, there's no special partition between experienced users and beginners on the internet that is why qualifying comments are necessary occasionally.  Of course content generators are responsible for the possible outcomes of that content your declaration otherwise is gob smacking. The examples of providers you quote are all competent and scrupulous people  demonstrating correct and safe procedures.  As for the videos produced by much more professional YouTubers they diligently demonstrate safe procedures not bodged up methods and dodgy unsuitable tools.   I have been watching videos by users such as Myfordboy who you mention for many years and remember his early casting videos and was once able to offer advice when he was having problems with cores.

To repeat, please read, view and understand the posts that are here  I note that Norman (goldstar31 has added his  thoughts on your post before I got to mine.


----------



## terryd

Jules said:


> The facts are that Jim carried out his procedure without any injuries.
> The degree of repeatability of the process before it “Goes wrong.” Is the subject of clearly varying opinions.
> Those who think we should make videos “Beginner friendly,” aren’t familiar with the video content on line.
> You can watch someone making their own rocket fuel or riding their sports bike at 120+ mph on the rear wheel, many thousands of crazy things, without any warnings.
> If you can’t take responsibility for your own safety whilst using a machine then you shouldn’t use a machine.



No one said that videos should 'be made for beginners' simply that attention should be drawn to possible pitfalls and dangers I would hate to think I had caused someone injuries, just why making such comments in the course of the video is so onerous, I simply don't understand.  I have sen many videos which begin with liability disclaimers, I'm not suggesting that.  Just because there are irresponsible idiots who make such irresponsible videos does not mean that we should not make responsible ones.  I certainly don't believe that terrorists should be able to spreadbomb making techniques but they do.

Unless you understand all of the safety issues with a machine as a beginner and only have access to online instruction and advice you can't necessarily take full responsibility for you own safety.

TerryD


----------



## terryd

Cogsy said:


> Supposedly the North American vehicle fatality rate is 1.16 per million miles but with vehicles in autonomous mode it falls to only 1 per 320 million miles. So the car would have been less safe with a human driver - and driver fatigue is a huge factor in many fatalities, so a tired driver would be more likely to crash. In this example, common sense says the driver was safer having a sleep than driving his car. Common sense says that every vehicle should be self-driving and not even contain manual controls - they should also be able to communicate between vehicles in the immediate vicinity to coordinate their actions, improving traffic flow and saving thousands of lives every year.
> 
> If we want to slag off safety procedures, and seeing as the incident has already been raised, Chernobyl was caused by an errant safety test gone awry. Had they not been testing the safety procedures, the reactor would have quite happily continued to run.



Quote:

"Currently there are no companies that are able to offer a fully autonomous ride in any conditions, on any road, with no human overseer."  and

"The leaders in autonomous driving have achieved Level 4 technology, but only along pre-defined routes under specific circumstances (daytime, good weather). These companies are offering campus shuttles or employee buses only, and always with human safety drivers on board."









						The Current State of Autonomous Vehicles | Digital Trends
					

Autonomous vehicles are quickly becoming a reality and are transporting paying customers in several cities already. As the technology evolves and improves rapidly, it can be difficult to keep up with where we stand today. We’ve got your breakdown of who is in the race, what technologies are...




					www.digitaltrends.com
				




The current so called 'autonomous' vehicles are actually assisted driving systems. I see that Tesla are relying basically on cameras and not LIDAR,  ok in sunny California but not so good in snowy, foggy Manchester.
As far as I know all jusrisdiction state something like 'the driver should be ready to take control of th vehicle should the necessity arise' (not an exact quote before you complain Cogsy).  As I also have a masters degree in Software Engineering Management I certainly wouldn't trust computer software in a safety situation unlike Boeing.

TerryD

P.S. please note the irony.


----------



## terryd

I should also have commented re. autonomous vehicles that if the driver is expected to remain alert enough to take over in emergency so he/she might as well be driving anyway which focuses the mind and prevents the mind from wandering generally for most people (I must exclude my ex wife from that statement)

TerryD


----------



## terryd

For those who find suggestions of making safety messages in videos really hard work and onerous I suggst that you watch this 3 minute example by Keith Appleby and note his comments at 2:50 onwards and tell me that is difficult to to do - this is not for video 'skimmers':



Terry D


----------



## goldstar31

Was this Appleton fellow the one with an upright organ?


----------



## Jules

That was a Myfordboy video and there were dozens of safety omissions. 
The very first thing he did was grip a copper tube in a three jaw chuck.......Not at all recommend for a novice. The tube can easily deform and fly out of the chuck. 
He then reaches over an unguarded rotating chuck......
I could go on and on.....
Where do you draw the line ?
It’s best to say nothing except perhaps don’t try this yourself. 
I recently did a course/ test which needed a nine point check to ensure an electrical supply was isolated........


----------



## terryd

Sincere apology for the confusion, for some reason it is the wrong video on my last post, I think that I let if auto feed onto the Myfordboy video, here is the one I referred to earlier:



TerryD


----------



## terryd

goldstar31 said:


> Was this Appleton fellow the one with an upright organ?


----------



## Jules

terryd said:


> Sincere apology for the confusion, for some reason it is the wrong video on my last post, I think that I let if auto feed onto the Myfordboy video, here is the one I referred to earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> TerryD



Ok, now I really like Keith’s videos and I’m certainly not knocking him. 
He makes no mention of using a blow lamp in a well ventilated area. 
Make sure the heat can’t reach any flammable liquids or old oily rags. 
Check your exit is clear if something does catch fire. 
Have a fire extinguisher to hand. 
If you have no natural light make sure you know where to put the hot torch if the lights go out. 
Check your gas regulator is attached correctly and not leaking. 
Use a proper hearth or fire proof area. 
Be careful that your torch hose won’t get tangled whilst soldering,  it could cause you to drop the burning torch........
I could go on....


----------



## terryd

I just noticed the last mention of Chernobyl impling that it was the fault of the 'Safety Test'.  No, it was the fault of the lack of a proper risk analysis as part of a safety Procedure, there is a difference, subtle but a difference between a test and a procedure.

The engineers at Boeing obviously missed a proper risk analysis and to be fair so did the engineers at Airbus who suffered a similar problem in the late 1980s (but now overlooked) but i would have thought that the former should have learned from the mistakes of the latter.  I could mention the Spanish programmers who almost destroyed the large Lloyds bank in hte UK for lack of a proper risk analysis as part of their procedure.  Hence my lack of confidence in IT systems (with my Software Engineering hat on!)

My point is that it is not safety tests or procedures which cause the problems but inadequately planned ones - human error again.

TerryD


----------



## terryd

Jules said:


> That was a Myfordboy video and there were dozens of safety omissions.
> The very first thing he did was grip a copper tube in a three jaw chuck.......Not at all recommend for a novice. The tube can easily deform and fly out of the chuck.
> He then reaches over an unguarded rotating chuck......
> I could go on and on.....
> Where do you draw the line ?
> It’s best to say nothing except perhaps don’t try this yourself.
> I recently did a course/ test which needed a nine point check to ensure an electrical supply was isolated........



Yes he leant over an unguardeed chuck but with plenty of room and no loose clothing in sight, not near a rotating blade with a few mm to spare. There was a wood plug in the tube which he had done and emphasised in an earlier video.

I did recognise my mistake, rectified it and posted an apology with a link to the intended video.  Which is more than some do on here.

As  for checks on electrical work, I would much rather err on the safe side with an invisible enemy ready to strike....... Enough said?

TerryD


----------



## Jules

terryd said:


> Yes he leant over an unguardeed chuck but with plenty of room and no loose clothing in sight, not near a rotating blade with a few mm to spare. There was a wood plug in the tube which he had done and emphasised in an earlier video.
> 
> I did recognise my mistake, rectified it and posted an apology with a link to the intended video.  Which is more than some do on here.
> 
> As  for checks on electrical work, I would much rather err on the safe side with an invisible enemy ready to strike....... Enough said?
> 
> TerryD


Terry I would have to disagree when it comes to too much safety. 
You can teach people to check the test kit, make the test, recheck the test kit.......
In reality test the circuit you intend to work and make sure the test kit is set properly. 
If you spend too much time buggering about it is easy to miss the important part of the test. 
As for your video shown in error, it still shows it as acceptable to reach over a rotating unguarded chuck. How much above it is not relevant.


----------



## jack620

My goodness terryd, you really do take yourself very seriously don’t you? How many posts have you made now? How many words?

BTW, not only did you post the wrong video, you called him Keith Appleby. Perhaps you need to slow down a bit?


----------



## JimDobson

jack620 said:


> *My goodness terryd, you really do take yourself very seriously don’t you? *How many posts have you made now? How many words?
> 
> BTW, not only did you post the wrong video, you called him Kieth Appleby. Perhaps you need to slow down a bit?



But how much fun is it reading the replies


----------



## JimDobson

For those interested, here's an example from today of the perfect application of the stippled finish on a pulley.
(P.S really appreciate the support that I have received privately, thank you all)


----------



## holmes_ca

terryd said:


> By the way to those who think that some of the safety stories on here are made up, I can assure you that all of the examples I quoted were true, real incidents and I could have quoted quite a few more examples from my 60 odd years in industry and education, some of which are very gory involving heavy machinery and fragile flesh and bone.  Many of these caused by taking short cuts by very experienced operators.  In fact it was their very experience, over confidence and familiarity which failed them.
> 
> As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap.  the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla driver caught asleep behind wheel of self-driving car going 93mph
> 
> 
> 
> TerryD


I can confirm the Tesla story or was within my area of Alberta


terryd said:


> By the way to those who think that some of the safety stories on here are made up, I can assure you that all of the examples I quoted were true, real incidents and I could have quoted quite a few more examples from my 60 odd years in industry and education, some of which are very gory involving heavy machinery and fragile flesh and bone.  Many of these caused by taking short cuts by very experienced operators.  In fact it was their very experience, over confidence and familiarity which failed them.
> 
> As an aside, a few weeks ago the traffic police in Canada pulled over a Tesla self driving car on a major motorway because the 'driver' and his passenger had reclined their seats and were taking a nap.  the 'driver' couldn't see what the problem was as the car could drive itself - common sense in action.
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla driver caught asleep behind wheel of self-driving car going 93mph
> 
> 
> 
> TerryD


I can confirm the Tesla story it was not far from me in central Alberta a few weeks ago,


----------



## justintime

KellisRJ said:


> I was a pilot & logistician in the US Army and once a maintenance tech. Long story . . .  Whenever I heard someone say "it'll be ok" I knew with 100% surety they weren't planning on being there when the fecal matter started spraying. Once turned down an aircraft when the mechanic, who had probably been doing it a long time, retorqued a bolt in the *rotor head* *assembly *without writing it up or getting a tech inspector to sign it off. Didn't argue with him. But the Main. officer was royally hacked off that I spoiled his time-to-maintenance flow demanding another aircraft. Until I returned. Then he sheepishly showed me a *steel* shaft 2/3 gone eaten away by an aluminum crank arm. A ticking time bomb if ever I saw one. Yea "It'll be OK."
> 
> Ron


Rubbish  ?


----------



## KellisRJ

justintime said:


> Rubbish ?


No, true story. Go figure on how that shaft got worn away, but I saw it.  May be over-kill for the topic at hand, don't want to contribute to this going anymore awry, was just a cautionary tale.


----------



## Jim Deprey

I enjoy reading about these kinds of issues so I can learn from them.  About two weeks ago I reached to check a piece of work in my vice, I got my thumb a little to  close to the milling cutter and took my thumb nail clean off.  It could have been my whole thumb.  Even old guys like me can do dumb things.  What I need most is to be educated and not humiliated.

Jim D.


----------



## STEVEJ

JimDobson said:


> For those interested, here's an example from today of the perfect application of the stippled finish on a pulley.
> (P.S really appreciate the support that I have received privately, thank you all)



Mind your fingers Jim!!!!!


----------



## Jim Deprey

STEVEJ said:


> Mind your fingers Jim!!!!!


i i i i i  think I will now...


----------



## JimDobson

STEVEJ said:


> Mind your fingers Jim!!!!!


----------



## Jim Deprey

I signed on to your Youtube channel this morning and have already viewed 3 of your videos.
Great job.
Jim d


----------



## JimDobson

Jim Deprey said:


> I signed on to your Youtube channel this morning and have already viewed 3 of your videos.
> Great job.
> Jim d



Thanks Jim, much appreciated.


----------



## speedibee

JimDobson said:


> Putting some grip (stippling) on an aluminium drive pulley.
> 
> I've always wanted to work out a way to put some extra grip on a home made drive pulley to prevent or cut down on belt slippage. It would be nice to have the tooling that Wilesco use on their grooved pulleys. I had a Dremel saw accessory that the outer plastic shell broke and I thought what can I do with the saw blade. Rudimentary, but it worked well. I should be able to work out now a way to mount it so it doesn't need to be held, though its not as dangerous as that looks and being hand held allowed me to skew the saw blade at the various angles needed easily.



I would drop the pulley in some battery acid and run a current through it for half hour. Anodise it if you don’t seal it it will have a rough Matt finish


----------



## JimDobson

speedibee said:


> I would drop the pulley in some battery acid and run a current through it for half hour. Anodise it if you don’t seal it it will have a rough Matt finish



I've done some DIY nickel plating before and it was very successful. Anodising is something I've never tried.


----------



## Cogsy

terryd said:


> Oh dear here we go again.



My thoughts exactly on this topic. I've been away for a few days and cam back to another 2 pages of replies on this thread!



terryd said:


> Dear Cogsy you really should read comments more carefully.  You make a point about the late introduction of posts regarding safety, if you had read the postings you might have noticed that the first safety message was in the third or fourth posting by Norman (Goldstar31) the following day after Jim's original one (and allowing for the time difference between Australia and th eUK it was a pretty prompt reply - well done Norman)  and the discussion of the merits of stippling only occupied a couple of short posts.


I was specifically referring to your contributions to the topic. Specifically, your post numbers 11, 14, 17, 18 before finally mentioning safety in post number 22. I was making the observation that for someone so vehemently opposed to the 'dangerous' technique used, it took a lot of posts before you mentioned it.



terryd said:


> You accuse me of attacking Jim, please read my first paragraph again where I say what Jim does in his own workshop is up to him, but not to put it on a public platform where inexperienced beginners may take it as advice without a simple spoken warning.


Again, I will reference that not all videos, or any content, is published with beginners in mind and nor should it be. Whether it be machining, electronics, firearm use, motor vehicle operation (especially motorcycles) or a multitude of other topics, there are countless videos, pictures and even tutorials which assume knowledge of (at the very least) basic techniques and safety practices. Perhaps a simple 'don't try this if you're not experienced' could have been added, but the vast majority of content producers do not include such a disclaimer, nor do they mention every specific hazard (or often any at all) in their videos. Again I'll refer to the excellent videos of Joe Pie or Myfordboy for examples (filing left handed immediately jumps to mind for Joe and I've never noticed a warning from Myfordboy about the dangers of CO poisoning from a propane furnace in an enclosed area).  



terryd said:


> As for emery cloth on the lathe I use lengths approx 18 inches long from a reel 1 inch wide made specially for the job.  I hold the ends lightly at a distance of 6 to 8 inches from the work so that if it catches (unlikely but possible0 it is pulled from my fingers.


Perhaps strangely, the international standards I linked to in my previous post does not specify a length of cloth that can safely be hand-held under power, just that that emery cloth must never be hand held when under power on a lathe. There is even the suggestion that alternative methods should be considered, so that if possible, emery cloth is not used on the lathe even without being hand-held.



terryd said:


> if I were to demostrate th process I would certainly discuss the safety aspects while working, it doesn't cost.  My technique was taught to me by very safety concious craftsmen, not amateurs working at home.  The only other abrasive material I might use is one of those emery coated sponge blocks whic h can safely be pressed against the work.  I also find it rather ironic if not amusing that I am being lectured on H&S by someone who spends so much time denying it.


A couple of points here - you described the technique in one of your posts in this very thread without discussing the safety aspect (yet you say rank amateurs may be reading this thread). You also suggest the technique is safe because safety conscious craftsmen taught it to you, which somehow means documented international safety standards can be disregarded. 

I would suggest that it is ironic (although not amusing I must say) that you are amused when it is pointed out that you are breaching well-known and documented safety standards - industrial standards, not merely for us amateur folk either - yet you have devoted so much time to this pursuit of Jim for his perceived safety transgression (perhaps more hypocritical than ironic).



terryd said:


> As for the leather prickers they are not at all flimsy, especially when compared with q dreme saw,the wheels are around 3 - 4 mm...


I'll have to trust you on this. My only experience with this type of tool is with old, well made examples. But my intuition suggests that modern, cheap eBay junk would be incredibly flimsy, which is what I based my comment on (and yes, you did suggest picking up a cheap eBay example).



terryd said:


> You further accuse me of not getting names correct.  *Again read my first paragraph and note that I called him **JIM.*  In the following paragaph I was addressing SteveM concerning his comments about safety comments spoiling a cricket match which I found ironic as teh batter and close fielders are a standing advert for H&S with all their protective equipment.  *I am not responsible for your confusion* but apologise if you didn't get my satire.


I've bolded a couple of bits of your paragraph just for clarity, and I'll cut-and-paste the beginning of the post in question (post #111):
*"Hi,*

*The origin of this thread was obviously Steve's use of an inappropriate technique, and it was inappropriate in all sorts of ways not the least that he admitted he was also working around a tripod and camera which he didn't use for the final component because of the inconvenience. However that said, he is working on his own in a private workshop and whatever he decides to do is ok"*

Unless I am very much mistaken - you have referred to Jim as Steve, exactly as I suggested you had. So technically you are correct - you are not responsible for my confusion as it is you who is confused.




terryd said:


> As for your ridiculous statement that not all postings or videos are not intended for beginners, who are you to know who watches and reads them, there's no special partition between experienced users and beginners on the internet that is why qualifying comments are necessary occasionally.  Of course content generators are responsible for the possible outcomes of that content your declaration otherwise is gob smacking. The examples of providers you quote are all competent and scrupulous people  demonstrating correct and safe procedures.  As for the videos produced by much more professional YouTubers they diligently demonstrate safe procedures not bodged up methods and dodgy unsuitable tools.   I have been watching videos by users such as Myfordboy who you mention for many years and remember his early casting videos and was once able to offer advice when he was having problems with cores.


As I have said, I have great respect for many of the content providers but they certainly do not always show best practices in every instance. I've already discussed a couple of examples and if I had more time (and inclination) I could dig up an early Joe Pie lathe video where he takes his hand off the chuck key while it's still in the chuck (notice he crops his videos so he can't make that same slip-up nowdays). Or go watch some of the Myfordboy casting videos where he pours molten metal over concrete flooring without any mention of potential steam explosions from spills. 
So from your comments above and the 'ridiculousness' of my suggestion that not all videos are intended for beginners, I assume you are now about to embark on a similar endeavour of educating these well-known content generators on their safety shortcomings and lack of suitable qualifying comments?



terryd said:


> To repeat, please read, view and understand the posts that are here  I note that Norman (goldstar31 has added his  thoughts on your post before I got to mine.


I believe I've correctly read, and understood, the previous posts, and I would ask you to follow your own advice - before you accuse me again of mis-quoting you, please go back and verify what you actually wrote originally.


----------



## goldstar31

A Thought for the dat?

What happens if someone follows the advice?
The warning comes from more than one professional lecturer regarding the dangers?


----------



## Ken I

This seems to be a post that won't die.

My 10c as a C1 responsible person and certificated engineer (once responsible for a factory of over 600 employees.)

I have a number of tips that I would never post on an open forum because they are inherently unsafe and I would hate to have someone hurt themselves doing something daft that I suggested (You should see how I change adhesive sanding disks on a linisher.)

Here in South Africa it is simply illegal to operate machinery alone - I can't have a single person work overtime in my factory for instance - nor am I allowed to have one of my technicians conduct repairs at a clients empty premises. These rules contain no exemptions for small or home based workshops.

Seems fairly sensible but if strictly obeyed means I can't use my home workshop unless I have my wife standing by "supervising" me - please ! My workshop is my refuge from her.

By all means point out unsafe practices but guys let's be reasonable, pragmatic and civil while we are at it.

I am tempted to say use your common sense but years of experience has taught me that if common sense was an animal it would be the Giant Panda - an endangered species.

I saw a quote the other day that said "Remember when you could buy a new car and it came with a handbook that told you how to set the tappets ? Now you get a handbook that warns you not to drink the battery acid !"

Regards, Ken


----------



## JimDobson

goldstar31 said:


> A Thought  for the dat?
> 
> *What happens if someone follows the advice?*



They'll have a nicely stippled aluminium flywheel for their model & toy steam application and their 2mm green watchmakers lathe polyurethane belt will be much less liable to slip as they're enjoying themselves having a steam up and running some steam accessories.


----------



## goldstar31

Perhaps someone is trying to tell me something.  
The last time that I got something like that was from one of my lovely little granddaughters. 
Of course, she is almost 11.


----------



## Steamchick

Maybe because the children are taught to be honest? - Learning to be "politically correct" comes with years of experiencing half-truths and mis-direction (dare I say corruption?). It is a curiosity that you can buy and sell guns, and the safety advice must explain that the purchaser is at risk of injury if the gun is mis-used, so must be pointed away from the user. (Just like buying cars, etc.). Pity help the guy who is shot... But we can still buy guns...   
Oops. 
K2


----------



## goldstar31

It's Remembrance Sunday and I'm one of the lucky ones. I can merely claim  to to be deaf as a result of what was never recognised  as a a war. Oh I got a little bit of money and waited for 70 years for my Government hearing aids to arrive.

When you go home
Tell them of us

For YOUR tomorrow

We gave our today.

To Mac and Tony and poor Fred.
RIP


----------



## JimDobson

goldstar31 said:


> It's Remembrance Sunday and I'm one of the lucky ones. I can merely claim  to to be deaf as a result of what was never recognised  as a a war. Oh I got a little bit of money and waited for 70 years for my Government hearing aids to arrive.
> 
> When you go home
> Tell them of us
> 
> For YOUR tomorrow
> 
> We gave our today.
> 
> To Mac and Tony and poor Fred.
> RIP



OT Much?


----------



## JimDobson

Another example of the 2mm green watchmakers lathe polyurethane belt in use and being much less liable to slip.


----------



## jack620

I have a Mamod TE1 I bought in Norfolk Island over 30 years ago. Still in the original box. It has a much more basic piston, but is otherwise identical to yours. Is the gas burner original or is it an aftermarket product?


----------



## JimDobson

jack620 said:


> I have a Mamod TE1 I bought in Norfolk Island over 30 years ago. Still in the original box. It has a much more basic piston, but is otherwise identical to yours. Is the gas burner original or is it an aftermarket product?



G'day Jack, this Mamod TE is a later model with the newer double acting piston valve engine. The TE1 that you have is a great engine and a lot of fun to run.

The gas burner (scuttle conversion) is a nice add on and allows fine adjustment to the amount of heat going to the boiler.


			Bix 010


----------



## Richard Hed

jack620 said:


> I have a Mamod TE1 I bought in Norfolk Island over 30 years ago. Still in the original box. It has a much more basic piston, but is otherwise identical to yours. Is the gas burner original or is it an aftermarket product?


Gak!  Did I read right?  Norfolk Island?  The island of horrific slave mutilations and degradation?  Do you see ghosts over there?  How do hyou travel to the island?


----------



## jack620

Richard Hed said:


> Norfolk Island?



That's the one. You can fly there. It has a tiny runway that a 737 can just manage to land on. I was in the Air Force at the time and we had to stop there for fuel on our way home from New Zealand. I'm not aware of any slavery in its history, but it was a miserable place for the convicts who were kept there. It's tiny and there's not much to do there, but surprisingly it had a toy shop!


----------



## Richard Hed

jack620 said:


> That's the one. You can fly there. It has a tiny runway that a 737 can just manage to land on. I was in the Air Force at the time and we had to stop there for fuel on our way home from New Zealand. I'm not aware of any slavery in its history, but it was a miserable place for the convicts who were kept there. It's tiny and there's not much to do there, but surprisingly it had a toy shop!


It was the convict stuff that I meant, my understanding is that they were tortured, enslaved to the most horrible stuff, even worse than Devil's Island, left to murder and canibalize even. so I am wondering how many ghosts roam around trying to get even or eat someone.


----------



## goldstar31

Reply deleted Off Topic


----------



## JimDobson

Ken I said:


> Here in South Africa it is simply illegal to operate machinery alone - I can't have a single person work overtime in my factory for instance - nor am I allowed to have one of my technicians conduct repairs at a clients empty premises. These rules contain no exemptions for small or home based workshops.
> 
> Seems fairly sensible but if strictly obeyed means I can't use my home workshop unless I have my wife standing by "supervising" me - please ! My workshop is my refuge from her.
> 
> Regards, Ken



That's some strict rules, can't see how its enforced in the privacy of your own home and what are the penalties for using a lathe in your backyard shed alone if you were somehow 'caught'?

Australia like South Africa is hot in summer, thongs are the norm for a lot of blokes in their sheds in Oz.


----------



## Steamchick

The thought of men in thongs is bad enough... but where do you wear PPE? Safety glasses and aprons to protect against flying swarf? Steel caps on sandals?
What you do in your own shed is your business, I reckon.
A bit like the guys in some US states that ride bikes at speed with just t-shirt and sunglasses for protection. I knew a guy who did that - hit a bee at speed - the sting went through his cheek into the gum and had to be removed by a dentist. Very painful, and the bee didn't survive... Another mate hit a small bird partly on the side of his helmet and goggles.... the bird didn't  survive and my mate had a black eye, cracked safety-glass lens and nearly crashed.... He was spitting  feathers - literally. We figured he would have lost an eye without the proper goggles. Better to keep the bike in the garage? No way! But wearing just a thong? Maybe time to get a fan? Or go  the beach?
Phew! Managed t get the thought of men in thongs - welding, grinding and driving lathes and millers - from my mind....
You've got to laugh!
K2


----------



## jack620

Steamchick said:


> The thought of men in thongs is bad enough...



To clarify, this is what we mean by thongs in Australia: Thongs

What you’re thinking of on a man we would call a jockstrap. And yes, it’s a horrible thought.


----------



## goldstar31

jack620 said:


> To clarify, this is what we mean by thongs in Australia: Thongs
> 
> What you’re thinking of on a man we would call a jockstrap. And yes, it’s a horrible thought.




I assume that there are testimonials for Hairy Mamods


----------



## Ken I

Jim, I have never heard of it being enforced.

But when an accident occurs, the inspectors materialize out of the woodwork - you never see them otherwise - issue fines etc. for any breaches of the law and then disappear back into the woodwork again.

A friend of mine was machining long thin ribbon swarf in stainless on his Myford - wearing flip flops - a ribbon curled around his big toe an instant before the whole affair birds-nested cutting down to the bone 360°.

Blood everywhere but apparently a fairly simple job to put it back together again.

Regards,  Ken


----------



## JimDobson

jack620 said:


> To clarify, this is what we mean by thongs in Australia: Thongs



And it would be a difficult job to find a bloke in Oz that has never worn thongs into his shed. Though Crocs are making inroads into thong territory


----------



## Cogsy

If I'm only doing something like working on a car or fixing the mower, and it's a hot enough day, then the full uniform is a pair of stubbies, wife beater and thongs. If I'm machining or messing with heavy stuff I switch the thongs for steel caps and if I'm welding then I try and add a long sleeved flannie.


----------



## Steamchick

My usual attire when machining or welding on hot days is simply a cotton boiler suit over the budgie-smugglers, plus the heavy leather Apron, sleeve and gauntlets for welding, brazing, or foundry work. I simply hate hot spatter or swarf burning my skin... the smell of singing flesh gets up my nose.
So I try and keep these jobs for the other 364 days... and practice reading and sleeping in a deck chair on hot days.
K2 - in N.E. England. Just a mile from the Arctic Ocean (North sea). 23 degrees C the hottest day - in March - this year, and 11 degrees C in August!


----------



## goldstar31

The forecast for the day is 'snow; in Scotland where I had a wee bhutt and beinn but this is mid November and I have skied on Cheviot - on the English side! in early October.  hat why the first civilian mountain rescue team was formed. There's wonderful story of a lost B-17 Flying Fortress trying to land on Cheviot and thereafter its wreckage used to appear and disappear at regular intervals. But I've skied the back of Cairngorm in a pair of swimming trunks- plus a pair of gloves in June.
North British weather is 'different'
To be fair, I take this 'Ossie' hype about heat with the normal pinch of salt although I have known my (late) wife put her knickers in the fridge when we owned a house on the Mediterranean. The Arabs on the other side of the plonk- only miles away put on more clothes for the summer heat.

Again. t is perfectly normal in the French Alps to ski in the morning and play  tennis or sunbathe in the afternoon. 
As for the cousins in the USA- I've been boiled alive in Boston, Mass and noted the congestion notices for winter snow clearing.
And-- hint!!!  I have a cousin in NSW who is one of those people who is 'plays at farming' now that he is retired. Dear old Rod got the 'fires' a few yards from his door-- and took it for granted. Still got his 'Geordfie' genes from his Dad who had been an ambulance driver in the Western Desert and then into New Guinea.  Me- I've snow holed in Arctic Norway in minus 32C. You know when the dogs were frozen to the lamposts and had the warning not to eat yellow snow.

It's all good old Ossie bullsh1t to be enjoyed but believed-- nah!


----------



## JimDobson

goldstar31 said:


> The forecast for the day is 'snow; in Scotland where I had a wee bhutt and beinn but this is mid November and I have skied on Cheviot - on the English side! in early October.  hat why the first civilian mountain rescue team was formed. There's wonderful story of a lost B-17 Flying Fortress trying to land on Cheviot and thereafter its wreckage used to appear and disappear at regular intervals. But I've skied the back of Cairngorm in a pair of swimming trunks- plus a pair of gloves in June.
> North British weather is 'different'
> To be fair, I take this 'Ossie' hype about heat with the normal pinch of salt although I have known my (late) wife put her knickers in the fridge when we owned a house on the Mediterranean. The Arabs on the other side of the plonk- only miles away put on more clothes for the summer heat.
> 
> Again. t is perfectly normal in the French Alps to ski in the morning and play  tennis or sunbathe in the afternoon.
> As for the cousins in the USA- I've been boiled alive in Boston, Mass and noted the congestion notices for winter snow clearing.
> And-- hint!!!  I have a cousin in NSW who is one of those people who is 'plays at farming' now that he is retired. Dear old Rod got the 'fires' a few yards from his door-- and took it for granted. Still got his 'Geordfie' genes from his Dad who had been an ambulance driver in the Western Desert and then into New Guinea.  Me- I've snow holed in Arctic Norway in minus 32C. You know when the dogs were frozen to the lamposts and had the warning not to eat yellow snow.
> 
> It's all good old Ossie bullsh1t to be enjoyed but believed-- nah!



Once again you show your ignorance.


----------



## deeferdog

Let's put this thread to rest, time to move on to other topics.


----------



## terryd

Re. small jet engines so commonly discussed on anti safety messages









						Vincent Reffet: French 'Jetman' dies in training accident
					

Vincent Reffet was part of the Jetman Dubai team, and performed airborne stunts around the world.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## STEVEJ

"I LOVE JIM DOBSON" there I said it!   Jim Dobson for prime minister.


----------



## JimDobson

terryd said:


> Re. small jet engines so commonly discussed on anti safety messages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vincent Reffet: French 'Jetman' dies in training accident
> 
> 
> Vincent Reffet was part of the Jetman Dubai team, and performed airborne stunts around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk



What's next Terry the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster ?

BTW you ignored Cogsy.


----------



## coulsea

its spring in Aus so we had 42.2 C on Monday, it was only 36 today so i got a few hours in the shed. its getting a bit dangerous taking the dog for a walk in the late afternoon because the birds are attacking and the snakes are in a bad mood. its quite safe in the shed.


----------



## Richard Hed

coulsea said:


> its spring in Aus so we had 42.2 C on Monday, it was only 36 today so i got a few hours in the shed. its getting a bit dangerous taking the dog for a walk in the late afternoon because the birds are attacking and the snakes are in a bad mood. its quite safe in the shed.


Are the snakes large enough to eat?


----------



## coulsea

Richard Hed said:


> Are the snakes large enough to eat?


they are but as they can kill you, you would want to be hungry to go and catch one, the most common ones here are the western brown Pseudonaja nuchalis - Wikipedia


----------



## Steamchick

re Jetman death: At least the guy had a fulfilling life, from what I read. Too many seem to want "someone else" to do it for them... - actually, I'm one of them - and fail to "grasp the nettles" in life. But no regrets for my decisions, simply wanted to give my respect to a man who achieved what Daedalus and Icarus were attempting. And I take my hat off to the engineers who made it possible.
Incidentally, I heard somewhere that the space shuttle had a 1 in 100 chance of total failure - when the first astronauts took it up to space.... but the stats were a bit wrong - I think it ended on 2 disasters in 160 odd flights. So they took known risks, knew what could happen, but it's only as dangerous as riding a motorcycle... and many of us still do that.

A toast to the pioneers, without whom modern technology wouldn't be as advanced as it is.
Enjoy life while it lasts - whatever you choose to do!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

coulsea said:


> they are but as they can kill you, you would want to be hungry to go and catch one, the most common ones here are the western brown Pseudonaja nuchalis - Wikipedia


Ah, thanx for the wiki, but how large is that snake in the photo?


----------



## jack620

Browns are relatively small as snakes go. The couple I've seen in the wild were less than 1.5m long and quite skinny. But they are aggressive and very toxic, which is a bad combination. 

Thanks to the Wiki I now know the aboriginals call them "gwardar" meaning "go the long way around". Excellent advice.


----------



## Richard Hed

jack620 said:


> Browns are relatively small as snakes go. The couple I've seen in the wild were less than 1.5m long and quite skinny. But they are aggressive and very toxic, which is a bad combination.
> 
> Thanks to the Wiki I now know the aboriginals call them "gwardar" meaning "go the long way around". Excellent advice.


Not much to eat.  How about are there any types of constrictors?  They usually are larger and better to eat.


----------



## goldstar31

We have a Whiteadder but better know is a Blackadder. Bean( ?) on TV.


----------



## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> We have a Whiteadder but better know is a Blackadder. Bean( ?) on TV.


Cleopatra should have eaten the asp not let it eat her.  But then she might not have been so famous.


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## goldstar31

Richard Hed said:


> Cleopatra should have eaten the asp not let it eat her.  But then she might not have been so famous.


Let's be honest. She was might have made an ass of herself but at the end she made a clean breast of things.


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## goldstar31

You might enjoy the sketch of Morecambe and Wise with Glenda Jackson ( Members of Parliament) as Cleopatra. 
Enjoy one of the finest British stars keeping a straight  face.


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## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> You might enjoy the sketch of Morecambe and Wise with Glenda Jackson ( Members of Parliament) as Cleopatra.
> Enjoy one of the finest British stars keeping a straight  face.





goldstar31 said:


> Let's be honest. She was might have made an ass of herself but at the end she made a clean breast of things.


Ha ha HAH, that is a goo one!


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## JimDobson

36,000 views


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## Cogsy

Richard Hed said:


> Not much to eat.  How about are there any types of constrictors?  They usually are larger and better to eat.


All snakes in Australia are protected species and it's illegal to kill them for any reason. I have a few living in my house - they make great pets, not smelly at all and don't eat much. Reasonably friendly beasts too. I haven't been bitten in weeks.


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## goldstar31

So Richard, your  snake recipes have drawn a blank in Oz. 
Have no fear-Snudge is here and  I am drinking with my Chinese- well half Chinese mate who is a superb cook- both English and Chinese. Owned the first Chinese restaurant in Newcastle- the proper one and is a semi retired food manufacturer.  Being a widower, he makes and his wife d delivers my Sunday lunch.
When I was in HK, they used to remove the livers from live snakes. So between glasses tonight, I'll try to raise the subject.
So - inquisitive one- there are two schools of thoughts about snake oil. One is the traditional belief that it is a load of rubbish  but the other is that extracting oil from their livers gives a superb lubricant for fine watches and fine instruments. 

Of course you missed the Whiteadder and Blackadder - twists. Despite 'Cousin'( Well people say Rowan and I are related) there are two rivers at the border of Scotland and England- a small village. 
Unfortunately, the American authorities are a bit fussy and nearly arrested my wife in JFK for bringing in apples but fear not, these little dogs have no sense of smell really because they entirely missed a supply of best Marks and Spenders Cornish Pasties.
 No I'm on topic. Cornish pasties were the Cornish method of carrying the workmen's lunches in the tin mines  pumped by non other than Trevethic engines.  As for 'Edmund Blackadder' or his actual personage he qualified from a graduand to a graduate at Newcastle University-- in electrics before doimg a Master's at Oxford.
Edmund in Edmund Blackadder comes from the nearest little village to the family farm and the adders bit comes from the ones around the 'Prnnine' hll farm. What is odder still is that his next door neighbour is/or was a member of this forum.
So much for being 'ignorant'
Incidentally, this is entirely my research-- and is therefore COPYRIGHT inn English Law.


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## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> So Richard, your  snake recipes have drawn a blank in Oz.
> Have no fear-Snudge is here and  I am drinking with my Chinese- well half Chinese mate who is a superb cook- both English and Chinese. Owned the first Chinese restaurant in Newcastle- the proper one and is a semi retired food manufacturer.  Being a widower, he makes and his wife d delivers my Sunday lunch.
> When I was in HK, they used to remove the livers from live snakes. So between glasses tonight, I'll try to raise the subject.
> So - inquisitive one- there are two schools of thoughts about snake oil. One is the traditional belief that it is a load of rubbish  but the other is that extracting oil from their livers gives a superb lubricant for fine watches and fine instruments.
> 
> Of course you missed the Whiteadder and Blackadder - twists. Despite 'Cousin'( Well people say Rowan and I are related) there are two rivers at the border of Scotland and England- a small village.
> Unfortunately, the American authorities are a bit fussy and nearly arrested my wife in JFK for bringing in apples but fear not, these little dogs have no sense of smell really because they entirely missed a supply of best Marks and Spenders Cornish Pasties.
> No I'm on topic. Cornish pasties were the Cornish method of carrying the workmen's lunches in the tin mines  pumped by non other than Trevethic engines.  As for 'Edmund Blackadder' or his actual personage he qualified from a graduand to a graduate at Newcastle University-- in electrics before doimg a Master's at Oxford.
> Edmund in Edmund Blackadder comes from the nearest little village to the family farm and the adders bit comes from the ones around the 'Prnnine' hll farm. What is odder still is that his next door neighbour is/or was a member of this forum.
> So much for being 'ignorant'
> Incidentally, this is entirely my research-- and is therefore COPYRIGHT inn English Law.


My workers in the Philippines always save the gall bladder of the snakes they eat for some medical hocus pocus.  they get $$ from someone for it.  I recieved some Mobil cutting oil yesterday.  Seems so silly to be talking about something so mundane, but I have neveer used it before and am sort of excited by the prospect of using a proper cutting oil.  Soon I should get some proper way oil as well.  

Does anyone know of a simple way to remove fumes from cutting?  I have a great problem with it if I breathe it.  I've tried a simple vacuum cleaner but it is clumsy and noisy.  A smaller system with less noise is what I needs.  I suppose I will simply have to bite the bullet and construct one.


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## goldstar31

Richard Hed said:


> Lard oil! Keeps hands as smooth as baby's bottoms.  After all it is simply moving stuff from one animal to another


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## goldstar31

AS for snakes, they are 9 feet long and are- or were in old China  hung from a hook in the rafters- and then the whole skin was pulled off.  The rest of the story was a fit of the giggles from a very senior octogenarian and a a rather new nonagenarian.   The rest of the evening is ' rather clouded'


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## goldstar31

Thanks Peter2AT for a reminder that Austria is still there. I have many happy memories of my late late playing the the Music Holiday. com in Berwang in the Tyrol. My wife;s photo is somewhere amongst a lot of  friends  over 15 years, Long before that we skied together and in the summer went to places like Kuhtai.
I was taught initially by an ex-Jaeger Korps man who was reserve man in the pre war  Olympics. Karl Fuchs brought skiing to Scotland - and taught me to drink black rum and tea.
Best Wishes

Norman


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