# Tooling: what's really out there?



## jwcnc1911 (Jul 2, 2013)

In the hobby world we don't always see what all is out there.  I work in a major factory and we have some unbelievable stuff.

There's been a lot of talk lately on tooling and machines so I wanted to show some of this stuff.

We use these OSG drills, you won't believe the last setup in this video:
[ame]http://youtu.be/e0yM5fHjxqc[/ame]

This video is not sped up, I've seen it with my own eyes:
[ame]http://youtu.be/r_3kwBoHh50[/ame]

We run some of these reamers:
[ame]http://youtu.be/mG96HUjrwdI[/ame]

We run some of these facemills:
http://youtu.be/rslfq-UXV8I

some of these facemills:
[ame]http://youtu.be/XxEzxMgQ51k[/ame]

I don't know about you guys but this stuff gives me a woody.  I could watch it all day.


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## BentRods (Jul 2, 2013)

In your first video, is there coolant when drilling the 10.3mm holes?
This stuff is unbelievable.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 2, 2013)

Yes, high pressure air/oil mist.  We run coolant tho.


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## aarggh (Jul 2, 2013)

Wow!

Damn amazing videos!

cheers, Ian


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## Kaleb (Jul 3, 2013)

My jaw has also dropped countless times seeing this kind of stuff in action. I think we hobbyists and amateurs are generally overlooked by major tooling manufacturers, since industry is a far larger market. However, I believe what we generally need in a tool is quite different from the needs of a factory pumping parts out by the thousand. I think that it might be worth some of us contacting one of these manufacturers that is respected in industry to see if they can work with us to come up with something suited to the hobbyist that is of good quality. I know at least some will do similar things to meet the needs of individual companies that have special requirements. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?


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## enfieldbullet (Jul 3, 2013)

jeremy, thank you for the videos.

Kaleb, this stuff is generally very expensive, more so  than the hobbyist is willing to pay. there are also other issues such as spindle runout which pose a problem.

carbide can't be run successfully at the runous most of us have. it'll chip and break very easily, this applies specially to drills.

we can even say HSS can be superior in our application because it is more forgiving, easier to sharpen(that's a BIG plus), and is sufficient for our machining speeds. most of us wouldn't have the machines to use those tools in or could justify the investment.

that being said i'm engaged in making hobby tooling and machinery. i may do some research in that area sometime soon.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 3, 2013)

Anything that is available to industry is available to hobbyists. The thing is that tooling needs to operate at certain feeds and speeds. In hobby gear you just can't run anywhere near as fast as is required. The cost wouldn't be any cheaper. They spend millions developing stuff and can make it back by selling hundreds of thousands of inserts or drills. Most an new product needs CNC. If you're in a hurry you're running production, not a hobby shop.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

dieselpilot said:


> Anything that is available to industry is available to hobbyists.



Not really, you stated the reason yourself... cost.  A hobbyist can't buy a $1.4 million Heller that rapids at 60,000mm/m or a Grob that rapids at 80,000mm/m and pushes a 40hp spindle with true micron resolution (see with an indicator all the time).  Hobby stepper machines just don't compare. Nor can we drop $800 on one coated carbide reamer.  Those 18mm OSG mega muschle drills, uncoated cost about $400 each uncoated.

I just think it's neat to see what's out there because most hobbyists do not work in a facility like I do.  One of our bigger machines, with pallet changer, I often go inside and sit on the fixture to work on tooling or the fixture.  I can literally stand on the table comfortably.

It may be out there, but available is different.  It's like comparing possible and probable.  Just because it's out there does not mean it's available.

By your reasoning, hot movie star chicks are available...

I do have some pretty cool stuff in my shop that was gifted to me by some of the tooling reps I know.  Sometimes when a test tool does not perform as desired they get thrown away!


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

Kaleb said:


> My jaw has also dropped countless times seeing this kind of stuff in action. I think we hobbyists and amateurs are generally overlooked by major tooling manufacturers, since industry is a far larger market. However, I believe what we generally need in a tool is quite different from the needs of a factory pumping parts out by the thousand. I think that it might be worth some of us contacting one of these manufacturers that is respected in industry to see if they can work with us to come up with something suited to the hobbyist that is of good quality. I know at least some will do similar things to meet the needs of individual companies that have special requirements. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?



I have quite a few contacts and could order basically anything out there but it would have to be a group buy.  Each item would need to be in the 100qty range to be affordable.  Smaller carbide reamers are very affordable in buys of 10 or more.  I've even ordered some on my own.  I have ordered reamers cut to my specs for rifle chambers on several occasions.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 3, 2013)

Sorry. If i can write a check, no matter how many zero's in the number, and have it at my door sooner than later it's available. What modeler needs to drill holes that quickly? It's just a cost vs need issue.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

I wish I had your check book!


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 3, 2013)

Obviously you don't understand. Lack of funds doesn't make an item non-existent. Your checkbook is larger than mine, I guarantee. But if I thought I needed something like that, I'd find a way to make it happen. My uncle bought 6 new Citizen L20 of some flavor about 6 years ago. It took time but he was able to get there.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

Wow some one just feels like being a pecker today.  If it's unaffordable it's by all means unavailable.  Go, point me to a link where you can order OSG or Ghuring.  Find a single rep who'll give you the time of day on a one off purchase.

Technically, it is available if you have the money.  Point was, most people don't even know about it.


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## pete (Jul 3, 2013)

Funny and actually nice to see this subject show up since it's something I've had to learn the hard way, and it is a subject I've become a bit fanatical about.

Yes I'd fully agree $400 plus carbide reamers are totally unnecessary for those of us with the short or at least shorter pockets and the requirements to spit a new engine out every 10 minutes or so. But..............................that doesn't address just what's available  through industry that might be considered as slightly older and a bit lower technology than can and does work very well for us. For most of my life I've used what I think most others here do and bought cutting tools mostly on the lowest price trying to save a few bucks. But a few trials of industrial quality brand name cutting tools a number of years ago have changed my thoughts completely. Just maybe this thread isn't as simplified as we'd like to think for the people with a bit less experience though.

Your obviously free to think what you'd like, but I can assure you you'd be wasting your time and this forums bandwidth trying to convince me my points are wrong. Logically there is a finite point where good cutting tools can be built and sold for. Below that point then quality and or durability is going to suffer. So it's pretty easy to test just how full of B.S. I am. Just buy and test two identical sized cutting tools. One from whatever no name supplier you'd like such as Harbor Freight, and another from a producer like Kennametal, OSG, or any other good quality manufacturer you'd care to name. And if you've never experienced what a properly sharpened good quality cutting tool is really capable of? You just might be very surprised. To be truthful, until I tried some OSG HSS dies I didn't have a clue about how a good die should cut. I'll never go back to cheap cutting tools. I just can't afford them anymore. It really is impossible to buy cheap yet good cutting tools.

With that said, those videos are more than a bit impressive. It's always great to see what the industrial state of the art is capable of.

Pete


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## Davo J (Jul 3, 2013)

Nice videos, thanks.
Buying tooling like this for the home shop is sort of like buying a nascar to do the local shopping.
Sure the feeds and speeds are nice to look at, but totally unpractical for the home shop one offs.
Like said earlier, HSS tooling is the way to go for home shops with carbide thrown in a bit for some end mills and face mills when needed.

Dave


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## aarggh (Jul 3, 2013)

As much as I love good quality tools, I don't really want to go to expensive cutters. I'll save the money by continuing to break cheap cutters! I suppose the silver cloud is that with every $3 cutter I break, I can say to myself I saved $400!

cheers, Ian


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

It was not my intention to start a tooling debate, rather to bring this to the attention of some who may not even know about it.  Every one has to make up his/her own mind what is available to them and what is not.  Like I said, if you can't afford it - it's unavailable to you.  Me personally, I've seen everything from 0.003in reamers to 1200mm facemills and 5ft grinding wheels.  I doubt that's the norm.

I feel that your statement, as follows, is a very good expression of my personal experience with tooling:



pete said:


> I'll never go back to cheap cutting tools. I just can't afford them anymore. It really is impossible to buy cheap yet good cutting tools.
> 
> Pete




Buy a quality, American, German or Japanese endmill and see how long it runs in comparison to an Enco value mill.  Personally, my shop is semiprofessional.  Not my main income but I do well in it.  I buy most of my tooling from:

http://www.monstertool.com/monster_tool_ream_monster.html
http://www.harveytool.com/?gclid=CPabzuvclLgCFRRk7Aod9VwACA
http://www.wolftooltech.com/carbide_drills_special.php
http://www.the-carbide-end-mill-store.com/Home
http://www.carbideplus.com/default.asp
http://www.carbideconnection.com/

and also a great deal of my tooling is hand outs as I have been fortunate to make many contacts in the business.

But I digress, I thought it was cool and wanted to share.  And Pete, we mostly agree but you are an exception to the typical hobbyist.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 3, 2013)

JW you're getting all wound up about my reply to essentially one statement and it wasn't even yours.



Kaleb said:


> I think that it might be worth some of us contacting one of these manufacturers that is respected in industry to see if they can work with us to come up with something suited to the hobbyist that is of good quality.



Does OSG, Kennametal, Sandvik or the like care about the needs of a hobby machinist? Even if you wanted to how do you talk OSG into selling a 400USD drill to a hobbyist for less than 400USD? BTW, my local OSG dealer is very helpful, but maybe they don't think I'm a pecker.

http://www.arwarnerco.com/ Is about as close as you're going to get to specialized hobby tooling.

I don't understand how state of the art technology not being priced in the hobbyist range makes it unavailable. Especially when there is no need for it. Which hobbyist even if they had the money would spend 400USD on a drill to drill a hole for a cylinder? Even if it was 12 holes for a V-12?

There are people who build toy engines on "real" machines. A few post here on occasion.

BTW, the machining videos on youtube are great.

http://youtu.be/k03HK4auJDI

A horizontal mill turning a part

http://youtu.be/NqCumXIl39Y

http://youtu.be/L-oC1tmgbi8

You could spend days before you ran out of stuff that was cool and virtually 100% would be production grade and price tag.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

I did get a little wound up, my apologies for calling you a pecker.

But I stand by what I said, for all practicality,  it is unavailable - for what ever reason.  Price being the prime reason.  Just because it's out there and "technically" available if you know what channels to go thru to get it, it's still for the most part unavailable to the hobbyist.  I mean heck, nuclear weapons are available but we all can't get them.  Most hobbyist won't have machine tools to push it, but if they did they could afford it.  Maybe I chose my words wrong, unattainable.  

Just saying, it's cool to see what modern industry is up to and bring it to light for some folks.

I like your video picks by the way.  That iMachining is awesome!

Again, my apologies for being the pecker who called you a pecker.  I love machine tool tech and I get fired up over it.  I grew up around it and it's in my blood.  Last time I got cut, I bled Honillo coolant.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 3, 2013)

Come on mod, I been a pecker but can that spam in #18.


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## aarggh (Jul 4, 2013)

jwcnc1911 said:


> Come on mod, I been a pecker but can that spam in #18.



They don't miss an opportunity!

cheers, Ian


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 4, 2013)

aarggh said:


> They don't miss an opportunity!
> 
> cheers, Ian



I know!  Tin must not be online.  I really like how quick he jumps on that stuff.


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## Swifty (Jul 4, 2013)

I think the only thing that Jwcnc1911 was aiming to do was just show us what sort of stuff is out there, certainly not for home hobby use. I like to see CNC machines in action and the tooling available amazes me. I do have experience on CNC mills, had an interchangeable carbide tipped 30mm dia drill that was used on mild steel plates 100mm thick, cannot recall the speed and feed, but it plowed through without any pre drilling in under 10 seconds.

Paul.


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## doubletop (Jul 4, 2013)

Back on topic

Surely its the case that we may not be able to afford these tools but their development will have had a flow down effect to the stuff we can afford. It just a case of where you are in the pecker order.

OK off topic again 

Pete


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## Wizard69 (Jul 4, 2013)

Most hobbiest simply aren't willing to pay the price.    However this is business, the best way to get this stuff out to hobbiest is to set up a business to sell to those hobbiest.   Honestly though your big catalog tooling vendors have just about everything one could possibly use on tool room type equipment.  



Kaleb said:


> My jaw has also dropped countless times seeing this kind of stuff in action. I think we hobbyists and amateurs are generally overlooked by major tooling manufacturers, since industry is a far larger market. However, I believe what we generally need in a tool is quite different from the needs of a factory pumping parts out by the thousand. I think that it might be worth some of us contacting one of these manufacturers that is respected in industry to see if they can work with us to come up with something suited to the hobbyist that is of good quality. I know at least some will do similar things to meet the needs of individual companies that have special requirements. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?


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## aarggh (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't really know that the unobtanium industrial stuff filters down so much, I think it's more a case of the manufacturing chains gradually refining and improve their processes as technology advances, thus producing better quality materials and increasingly  improved cheap parts.

cheers, Ian


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## kvom (Jul 4, 2013)

The horizontal mills shown in the videos can use tooling like this for several reasons, with chip evacuation being a big factor.  And since they use a pallet system they can make parts without the need to manually load and unload each time.  Since they often run unattended lights-out, durability is an important factor.  Nice to see but relatively unimportant for home hobby use.


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 4, 2013)

JW, that's why you have job shops. You call one up for a quote. One 100cc V-12 block drilled with 400USD drills please.... Market availability and individual availability are not the same. Yes, we all get emotional about lumps of metal and carbide.

There are a few more videos that stood out in my mind, but I couldn't find them in my youtube history. Apparently I watch too many videos. If I lived closer to my uncle's shop I'd be working there. His kids who are my age have no interest in a turnkey business.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNXP3TA5_tw[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ck3kktHRM[/ame]

The software for simultaneous 4 axis is beyond most hobby shop means, let alone 5 axis.


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 4, 2013)

I was just wanting to show it!

I could show some crazy pictures but the men in black suits would show up...


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## ZipSnipe (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeah it is kool stuff, I worked at a tool and die shop and our machines didn't go that fast.  The machinists I worked with liked to peck drill everything as do I.

As to these machine and cutters being for hobbyist, no not really, but hey if you can throw down $150k for cnc machine and cutters and make some great hobby or art, then do it.  Love seeing these machines making kool stuff rather than production.


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## pete (Jul 4, 2013)

I've got to say I couldn't agree more with Wizard69 and  others. Even a quick study of say MSC's catalog will show there's at least 2-3 price levels on almost any cutting tool you'd care to name. And I just can't see any of the larger cutting tool manufacters or suppliers thinking our needs or wants are important enough, large enough, or worth enough to try and come up with a line of cutting tools just to suit us. Not when there's almost anything you could want already being sold. And if they somehow did want to do this? You can bet they'd just slap a premium price on off the shelf tooling and add a fancy "Home shop Machinist" grade sticker on it or something much like it. 

And if for some reason you really are stuck for something specialized that the standard tooling can't fit or wont do? Well then the tool resharpening companies can probably custom CNC grind anything you could ever possibly think of. But I've sure never felt limited by what the tool suppliers are selling today. Well the limiting factor is my wallet size. Unfortunately there really is no substitute for good quality cutting tools.

Pete


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 4, 2013)

pete said:


> I've got to say I couldn't agree more with Wizard69 and  others. Even a quick study of say MSC's catalog will show there's at least 2-3 price levels on almost any cutting tool you'd care to name. And I just can't see any of the larger cutting tool manufacters or suppliers thinking our needs or wants are important enough, large enough, or worth enough to try and come up with a line of cutting tools just to suit us. Not when there's almost anything you could want already being sold. And if they somehow did want to do this? You can bet they'd just slap a premium price on off the shelf tooling and add a fancy "Home shop Machinist" grade sticker on it or something much like it.
> 
> And if for some reason you really are stuck for something specialized that the standard tooling can't fit or wont do? Well then the tool resharpening companies can probably custom CNC grind anything you could ever possibly think of. But I've sure never felt limited by what the tool suppliers are selling today. Well the limiting factor is my wallet size. Unfortunately there really is no substitute for good quality cutting tools.
> 
> Pete



What? What are you even talking about?  Holy cow this has gotten out of hand.

Every one, please reread my original post.  I never mentioned buying it... just that it's out there.  Some one else made it about buying it.

The original point was "hey look at this" not anything like "I think you guys should buy this".


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 4, 2013)

JW, sometimes topics stray a bit. Don't take it personally. Just find more stuff to post on topic. The hard turning videos can make some fireworks.


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## pete (Jul 4, 2013)

JW,
I did view and very much appreciated your videos. My last was in response to a few posts about getting tool suppliers or manufacters to cater to our needs. It isn't going to happen and there seems to be no real need for it. As I said, it's more than a bit impressive to see just what the industry state of the art is capable of today with the high end machines and cutting tools.Getting the swarf to clear fast enough seems to now be an issue though. But I certainly wasn't talking about anyone here buying any tooling and then trying to replicate the speeds and feeds shown in those videos. Do even 1% of the members here even own or have access to the machine tools capable of enough rigidity and rpms to do it? Yeah the thread has gone partially OT, and maybe I'm slightly to blame for that.

Pete


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## mu38&Bg# (Jul 4, 2013)

I found the hard turning video.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvHMVkfweCc[/ame]

Polygon turning anyone?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9jMN9Bgg6g[/ame]


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## jwcnc1911 (Jul 4, 2013)

Man that's cool!  I've never seen that polygon turning.  The timing on the tool to spindle has to be perfect.  That's cool!


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## /// (Jul 5, 2013)

Years ago I saw an amazing video of one of these 'Hexapod' machines milling a V8 block... can't find it now 

Best I can find is this:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDzUiZsbQtw[/ame]

And here is a 'home made' version:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UmhUjZhNo[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nebJ59TcYlQ[/ame]

And a robotic version:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Kpv-ZOcKY[/ame]


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