# Collet systems for lathes



## SmoggyTurnip (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a C6 lathe which has an MT4 spindle bore. I also have an X3 mill that has an R8 spindle. I often wish I had a collet system for my lathe, mostly because I want to be able to hold parts without marking them. Is there such a thing as an adapter that would alow me to use R8 collets in my lathe? If not what are some inexpensive options for collet use on my lathe?


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## mklotz (Jan 13, 2009)

I made an R8 collet chuck for my lathe as a practice piece before making my C5 chuck. I made it from aluminum since I never intended to actually use it - it was solely a vehicle for perfecting the techniques I'd need to make the "real" chuck of steel.

That said, it worked quite nicely once finished. The problem, of course, is that one loses the through-chuck capabilities for long stock and, believe me, that's a serious loss you'll ultimately regret. Also, with R8, you can't get square or hex collets (that I know of) and they're both really handy.

Save your R8 collets for the mill and buy/make either a C5 or ER32 collet chuck for the lathe. The former has the advantage of readily available collets while the latter has the advantage of a larger range on each collet and the ability to handle metric sizes.


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## dwentz (Jan 13, 2009)

There are inexpensive mt-2 and mt-3 collets on e-bay, you could get an adapter sleeve and use them for your lathe. Just get some 3/8 all thread for a draw bar. You could also get an adapter to use them in your mill. 

MT-4 is too small to put an 5-c adapter in, but you could build a 3c adapter, but the 3c collets are not as easy or as cheap to come by as the 5C. How about a 5C collet chuck, CDCO has one that I have been looking at, its seems like a reasonable price, have heard that it is not too bad either.

Dale


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## rake60 (Jan 13, 2009)

The problem with adapters is they add to the extended length from the spindle.
That extra length robs rigidity.

The Import 9 X 20 Lathes have an MT3 taper in the spindle.
I bought an ER32 collet holder for mine because I already owned an R8-ER32
collet holder for my mini-mill along with a full set of collets.
It didn't impress me. It looks like this in the lathe.





And, it is as rigid as it appears. : 

Rick


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## Andrew_D (Jan 13, 2009)

rake60  said:
			
		

> The problem with adapters is they add to the extended length from the spindle.
> That extra length robs rigidity.
> 
> The Import 9 X 20 Lathes have an MT3 taper in the spindle.
> ...



My mini-mill came with an ER-32 -> MT3 collet holder similar to your picture. It ends up with lots of overhang as you've shown.

My to-do list includes making a chuck for ER-32 collets to mount on my 7x12 the same way the 3-jaw/4-jaw/faceplate/etc. does. I can use the collets and ER-32 nut that I already have from the mill holder. This should get me closer to the headstock and also allow passing stock through the spindle.

Thought I had a pic to show what I mean, but I can't seem to find it now...

Andrew


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## Peter Neill (Jan 13, 2009)

The ER32 collet chuck that's made for the Myford looks a lot better, as it screws directly onto the spindle nose and register.
Haven't used it myself, so can't comment on how effective it is. 
More details here: http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/ER32_SPRING_COLLET_CHUCK_SYSTEMS.html



Peter


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## Andrew_D (Jan 13, 2009)

Peter Neill  said:
			
		

> The ER32 collet chuck that's made for the Myford looks a lot better, as it screws directly onto the spindle nose and register.
> Haven't used it myself, so can't comment on how effective it is.
> More details here: http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/ER32_SPRING_COLLET_CHUCK_SYSTEMS.html
> 
> Peter



Yup, that's what I've been thinking of doing... 2nd picture down & 5th picture down

Andrew


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## bhjones (Jan 14, 2009)

There seems to be a huge amount of confusion across all the web forums and email lists related to work holding collets and tool holding collets. This reply I'm quoting here is a good example. 

While the ER collets are suitable for both work and tool holding, the method shown here to adapt the collet to the spindle is not suitable for lathe work. This adapter is meant to be used in a milling machine.

A work holding collet will have a couple of features important to use on a lathe. It will be self releasing, or in the case of the ER collets drawn out by the nut, and it will also have an open bore.

The R8 collet for example has neither of these features. Using an R8 collet (or MT taper collet) will limit the length of work to only a few inches because the collets have a blind hole. You'll also have to drive the collet out of the spindle taper after each use. Hammering on the end of your spindle is not a kind thing to do to it.

My own opinion on collets for lathe use is to stick with the 5C style. If your spindle is large enough to run an adapter to go from MT5 (or whatever you spindle taper is) to 5C, then buy or make the adapter and draw tube (note: I sad "tube" and not bar). If it doesn't then get a 5C chuck with an adjustable backing plate. Dial in the taper on the 5C chuck and your all set.

The one advantage to the ER collets is the ability to share them between mills and lathe, but they are no where near a versatile as 5C collets. With 5C you have the option of round, square and hex collets. There are also pot/step collets and E collets that can make life much more enjoyable.

Two things to consider with the pot and e collets that's useful in engine building. You can take a 2" or 3" pot collet and bolt sacrificial jaws on it then cut any size step into them, concentric or offset. Ditto on the e collet. You could take a soft steel e collet and broach a 1/2' square hole, offset by .110 for drilling an offset through hole in 10 parts. Now you could use a 4 jaw to do the same thing, but it would be a pain by comparison.

Lastly, there is no "need" for most of us to have a complete set of 5C collets in 16ths, 32nds and 64ths. Most will never be used and even with import collets, a complete set is a large investment. I recommend a complete set of 16ths, a 3" step and a few E collets to start with. A person can add others as needed.



			
				rake60  said:
			
		

> The problem with adapters is they add to the extended length from the spindle.
> That extra length robs rigidity.
> 
> The Import 9 X 20 Lathes have an MT3 taper in the spindle.
> ...


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## shred (Jan 14, 2009)

I use my ER-16 collets for small workholding in the lathe with a stubby holder (mine needs less hammering than that to remove a center). Works ok for the small work that fits in an ER-16, there's little need for through-headstock capabilities. For bigger parts I have a 5C-type setup with draw tube, but I always find myself limited on the size range of 5C collets for small work-- ER fixes that. The brits have access to a sweet setup that puts an ER-32 nose on a 5C collet. I keep wanting one of those.


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## steamer (Jan 14, 2009)

"The brits have access to a sweet setup that puts an ER-32 nose on a 5C collet."

That would be really nice to have. I haven't seen one but I will keep my eyes out for one.

Dave


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## joeby (Jan 14, 2009)

I was looking for a good collet setup for the Atlas lathe I have, but the collet setup that was commercially available for them was, I think, 3-C. Not so cheap or easy to find, and the spindle bore is small on these lathes to start with.

 So, I drew this up and made one with the nose being 4140 pre-hard. That way, if it gets too badly beaten up on the taper, I can recut it. I finished the taper while it was mounted on the spindle as it would be in use. Runout is generally under .0005".






Kevin


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## steamer (Jan 14, 2009)

OOOOh I like that!

Is that a closer ring inside the body?

Dave


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## joeby (Jan 14, 2009)

Dave,

 Yes, the closer ring (nut) is what you see inside the "window". There are grooves cut on either side of the nut and in the nose and backing plate filled with 1/8" bearing balls. The nut spins very easily.

 It does extend from the spindle nose a good bit; but it hasn't caused any problems. I use it mainly on small parts anyway.

 Back to the OP, the reason I went this route was to use 5-C collets, which were designed for workholding, are easily found, cheap, different shapes available, any size (emergency collet if it's an oddball size, internal collets, and the ability to use collet stops if necessary. As an added benefit, the spindle thread on the Atlas is 1 1/2"-8, and so is the spindle thread on my dividing head.

Kevin


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## BillH (Jan 14, 2009)

joeby  said:
			
		

> I was looking for a good collet setup for the Atlas lathe I have, but the collet setup that was commercially available for them was, I think, 3-C. Not so cheap or easy to find, and the spindle bore is small on these lathes to start with.
> 
> So, I drew this up and made one with the nose being 4140 pre-hard. That way, if it gets too badly beaten up on the taper, I can recut it. I finished the taper while it was mounted on the spindle as it would be in use. Runout is generally under .0005".
> 
> ...


That is a near identical copy of a casting kit you can buy from the same people that sell the Die Filer, T slot cross slide for south bends, and face plates... Whats the URL and name of the company... I cannot remember....


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## joeby (Jan 14, 2009)

Bill,

 I have seen pictures of one called a "Loop Collet Chuck", and a fellow by the name of Andy sells a kit, I think it's "Metal Lathe Accessories". I have a boring head I bought from him, very nice fellow to deal with and the castings and drawings were very good.

 I liked the looks of the "Loop", and so I made this one similar to it. I'm not certain how the innards are on the "Loop"; but from looking at the pictures, he managed to reduce the overhang a good bit from what I ended up with.

Kevin


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## Andrew_D (Jan 14, 2009)

Is this the site you guys are talking about:

http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/index.html

Andrew


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## BillH (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes, the Loop chuck, and that is the site!


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## kvom (Jan 15, 2009)

Another collet system is the Jacobs rubberflex. I have used this at school, and my lathe came with a set. Mine is a D1-3 mount, school's is D1-6; not sure if other spindle mounts are available.

I have seen these on eBay sell for around $300.


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## Andrew_D (Jan 15, 2009)

bhjones  said:
			
		

> While the ER collets are suitable for both work and tool holding, the method shown here to adapt the collet to the spindle is not suitable for lathe work. This adapter is meant to be used in a milling machine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why can't this adapter be used?? 

Yes, there will be a limit to the length of material that can be used. 
Yes, it sticks the material out from the headstock a long ways.
I think we all realize that and agree. 

The only other issue I can see is that nobody has mentioned whether this adapter is being used with a drawbar or not. It MUST be used with a drawbar. Unless you like having adapters flying around your head at high speeds! 

Andrew


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## steamer (Jan 15, 2009)

Besides overhang, you need to worry about run-out.  It can get significant with a large overhang. Other than that, it should be fine.


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## BillH (Jan 15, 2009)

I have a Lathemaster 5c collet chuck on my 8x14. It has a zero set backplate and I can get it within .0002. I need to bolt down my lathe however as it wobbles and I am positive that affects my ability properly "zero it in". Anyhow, the 5c Collet chuck for 269$ is a great value, it is very nice. It does however have a lot of overhang. 
The ideal solution is to mount the collet inside of the spindle, with small lathes that means a 3c collet.


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## rake60 (Jan 15, 2009)

Andrew_D  said:
			
		

> The only other issue I can see is that nobody has mentioned whether this adapter is being used with a drawbar or not. It MUST be used with a drawbar. Unless you like having adapters flying around your head at high speeds!
> 
> Andrew



A very important thing to note!
The collet holder that I bought to use as a makeshift collet chuck, has a 1/2"-13
thread in the back end. I use a 9" long piece of 1/2"-13 all thread rod as a drawbar.












A regular hex nut would be a safer choice over the wing nut that I use.
There would be less chance of making accidental contact with it.

Rick


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## Noitoen (Jan 15, 2009)

Hi,

Since you have that colet holder, check here. I think it's not difficult to build a chuck. Check here for ideas. http://www.optimum-machines.com/fil...laeuterungen/GB/accessories_turning_GB_08.pdf


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## Paula (Jan 15, 2009)

joeby  said:
			
		

> I have seen pictures of one called a "Loop Collet Chuck", and a fellow by the name of Andy sells a kit, I think it's "Metal Lathe Accessories". I have a boring head I bought from him, very nice fellow to deal with and the castings and drawings were very good.
> 
> I liked the looks of the "Loop", and so I made this one similar to it. I'm not certain how the innards are on the "Loop"; but from looking at the pictures, he managed to reduce the overhang a good bit from what I ended up with.



Hi Kevin,

I've got the MLA-21 Loop 5C collet chuck on my short list of projects to undertake. In fact, I already have a set of original South Bend 5C collets (1/16" to 1" by 16ths), so I'm champing at the bit to get started. I've already built the MLA quick-change toolpost, and right now I'm working on the T-slotted cross slide, soon to be followed by the T-slotted face plate.

I like your design (reminds me of a space capsule ), and as you say, the big advantage of making your own is that you true up the collet taper on the lathe on which it will be used, so runout is almost nil. The MLA design may have a bit less overhang, but also less "working depth", as a direct consequence (for stock that won't pass thru the spindle).

Here are some pictures that give a better idea of the MLA design. The "nut" is retained by ball bearings riding in semi-circular races in the nose and backplate:











Paula


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## steamer (Jan 15, 2009)

I have the Bison 5C that I bought years ago for the 10" Atlas.
When I sold the Atlas and got the Logan, the chuck stayed behind. Good thing as it is now mounted on the Logan. I had a extra Logan back plate so I modified the Atlas back plate to mount to it and become "adjust true".  I love it and I use it all the time.
The Bison chuck is very high quality and I can't speak more highly of it. I use Lyndex collets and their quaility is excellent also. I recently checked the runout on a 3/8 collet with a part in it and it was less than .0002"....I couldn't ask for better.


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## S.D.L. (Jan 15, 2009)

steamer  said:
			
		

> "The brits have access to a sweet setup that puts an ER-32 nose on a 5C collet."
> 
> That would be really nice to have. I haven't seen one but I will keep my eyes out for one.
> 
> Dave




Get them here.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures

Scroll to bottom of page.

Steve Larner


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## joeby (Jan 15, 2009)

Paula,

 Thanks for the photos, I can see now how shortening the overhang was accomplished. As I mentioned earlier, I had only ever seen the chuck in a picture, and started from there. I see the backplate is much thinner than mine and has a flat front face where the nut would be on the bearing balls. I made mine with a raised ring outboard from the bearing race to act as a sort of labyrinth seal to prevent chips from getting into the bearings. 

 When I get a chance, I will take a couple of photos of mine if you are interested.

 By the way, are those photos of your chuck? If so, it looks like you have a good start.

Kevin


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## steamer (Jan 15, 2009)

SDL


Thanks!
Price is not too bad I think.....I'll ponder that a bit.

Dave


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## Paula (Jan 15, 2009)

joeby  said:
			
		

> When I get a chance, I will take a couple of photos of mine if you are interested.
> 
> By the way, are those photos of your chuck? If so, it looks like you have a good start.
> 
> Kevin



Yes, Kevin, I would definitely be interested in seeing some pictures of your 5C chuck (as I'm sure others would). The disassembled MLA chuck in the pictures I posted was made by John Wagner, over on the SouthBend10K yahoo forum. It does look like he did a very nice job on it.

Paula


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## joeby (Jan 16, 2009)

I took a few photos of my 5-C collet chuck this morning.

 You can tell how much longer it is than the Loop Chuck. 











The Loop Chuck design has the backing plate flat and much thinner than mine, and the nut is counterbored on the front, instead of the back.






Here you can see how little clearance I left between the nut and the nose-piece bore, that and the raised ring on the backing plate being a very close fit in the nut counterbore were intended to keep dirt and chips out of the bearings. It seems to have done the job so far.

Kevin


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## Paula (Jan 16, 2009)

Great job on the collet chuck, Kevin! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Your workmanship is first class, to say nothing of your design skills. :bow: You used no castings, right?

Thanks for posting the pictures!

Paula


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## steamer (Jan 16, 2009)

NICELY done!

That was a good bit of work! 

Dave


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## joeby (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for the compliments!

 Paula, no, no castings in this at all. The nose was made of a piece of 4140 round that was a leftover from another job. The backing plate was a bar end from who-knows-what; it turned really nicely, like 12L14, but doesn't have the rusting issues like I would expect. The nut was a piece of 1018. Quite a mixture of materials; but when I started making it, what I had on hand was going to have to work.

 Steamer, yes, a pile of material had to come off; but I cheated there just a bit. The bulk was removed by using some spare minutes on lunch break! I took the pieces into work with me and used the 14x40 lathe to hog off most, and finished it on my Atlas.

 I think I may have drug this thread too far off Smoggy's intended line; but for what it's worth, if you have the time, a 5-C setup like this works very well, the collets are not overly expensive, and in my case, the material costs were next to nothing (I had to buy bearing balls). The biggest drawbacks of it are the lack of range of the 5-C collet, and the fact that the collet stop is in the collet itself (doesn't necessarily have to be though). 

Kevin


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## steamer (Jan 17, 2009)

Ahhh good!

4140 can be a bit nasty to rough without a brute machine.

I know my Atlas didn't like it much.....you had to "ask nice"

Dave


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## Kermit (Jan 17, 2009)

joeby  said:
			
		

>



I don't know that I would EVER be able to make something like that! Lord knows I Want Too.

If only I had made it this far twenty years ago. :-\ Oh well, enough of the pity party. I'm gonna try hard and pester your friendly butts to death when I have a problem, and then, and then, uh? I got it! I can do like the AMerican Gubmint. I'll just throw money at it till it turns out like I want! 

 ;D

That is some fine workmanship, but so far as my QC eyes can tell, so is most everything on here. Better quality pictures would only reveal better workmanship I fear. What is going to be hardest will be NOT using my own QC skills and history with parts to judge my first creations. I know my first efforts are gonna suck but I can't let that get me down. 

Slave to mystical standards and unreachable tolerances,
Kermit


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## mklotz (Jan 17, 2009)

Kermit,

It's far more important to make something than it is to make something perfectly.

Learn to gauge the quality of your work by what you learned from making it.

If you fall into the trap of "I can't start working until I'm ready to do it perfectly" you'll never get anything done.

Ok, enough pseudo-wisdom from the sage in the cave on the mountain, now get out there and make some chips!


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## joeby (Jan 17, 2009)

Kermit,

 Marv won't steer you wrong. We all start somewhere. One other thing to keep in mind is how the particular feature that you're working on functions (cosmetic or critical), if it's cosmetic, tolerances are less of a nuisance. 

 I work on injection molds for a paycheck, and one of the most aggravating things is to try and hold the +- .0002" tolerance on a part only to find out the part it makes has a +- .015" tolerance on it.

 If the function of the part doesn't require "perfect" don't waste time to make it so, make it work instead.

Kevin


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## steamer (Jan 18, 2009)

S.D.L.  said:
			
		

> Get them here.
> 
> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures
> 
> ...



In retrospect, Instead of the above, I think I'll make up a 5C adapter that has a spindle nose to match my small mill. (M22 x 2 thread with a register diameter) so that I can swap a small chuck between the two machines.....thus keeping the number of different tooling systems to a minumum. I think that would be more useful to me at the moment. Thanks anyway S.D.L.

Dave


Kermit, the best way to learn is to do.  Do an appropriate amount of planning then " have at it."
There will be bumps in the road, you will get by them.


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## SmoggyTurnip (Jan 19, 2009)

joeby  said:
			
		

> I think I may have drug this thread too far off Smoggy's intended line;



The original poster is loving it. I would love to build something like that. I dont suppose you have any drawings?


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## joeby (Jan 19, 2009)

Smoggy,

 I need to do some more looking. I have the solid model on my laptop; but I don't see the 2D drawings. If I don't find them soon, I will make a new set. 

Kevin


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