# Cheap (Chinese?) Carbide Tips



## MRA (Jul 4, 2018)

Hi folks

I recently bought a cheap (£35-ish) R8 4-insert 50mm face cutter, and I've been playing with it on the Bridgeport at work.  I bought a cheap one as I reckon I've more chance of smashing up the tips by doing something daft, than wearing them out doing appropriate things lots of times at high speed as in a production environment - which we are not.  Saying that, branded replacement tips are available in the right shapes, at much higher prices.

So - I want to ask the silly question; the one to which I would roll my eyes if anyone asked it about, for instance, hacksaw blades.  What's the problem with cheap carbide?  Can I expect tips to dull quickly, even with light cuts and slow speeds and feeds on mild steel?  Or is it just that it'll give up on (say) stainless quicker than branded material?  I'd like to know your experiences.

Thanks all
M.


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## DJP (Jul 4, 2018)

My only experience with inexpensive carbide cutters is with lathe cutters where the carbide is silver soldered to a steel holder. Under heavier load the carbide fractures which I assume is because it isn't well supported. The cutters that I build myself using indexable carbide inserts held in place with a screw last a long time and they are perfect for stainless or toughened steel.

Not much help as I too am interested in other responses.


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## Jasonb (Jul 5, 2018)

I also bought a similar cutter for less than that and got very poor results with it, changed to some decent brand name tips which cost more for 4 than the cutter and it was transformed. Also found the head was a loose fit on the 22mm arbor so clocked that in which helped a lot.

Have a look at this thread where I wrote about it rather than me having to post the videos and photos again.


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## bazmak (Jul 5, 2018)

I use a lot of cheap RCTs and the main problem is chipping rather than wear.However i will stick with them
as i have no comparison with more expensive named ones. I also get a certain extended life by


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## Hopper (Jul 5, 2018)

I've been using cheapo lathe tooling inserts off Aliexpress without problems for some time now. Quite surprising really. But I figure there must be a lot of machining going on in all those factories in China and they probably aren't stopping production to change rubbish inserts all the time.  They are so cheap -- $10 for a box of 10 inserts -- it's worth a punt to try them.  So far, so good.


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## MRA (Jul 6, 2018)

>  Can I expect tips to dull quickly, even with light cuts and slow speeds and feeds on mild steel?

(sorry to quote myself - but thanks to JasonB's link, it seems I am quoting myself saying something silly!  )

I'm used to HSS, where slowing down in all senses usually seems to give a better finish.  But from reading around, it seems carbide wants to spin fast (OK, I sort-of-knew that) and *feed like hell*!  I'm amazed - alarmed, even - at the feed rates recommended by various rules of thumb I have found online, and having tried them (50mm 4-insert face cutter, mild steel, 600 rpm (OK...), 600mm/min feed (what?!)) - well, it seems to work.  Apparently light cuts / feeding slow rubs the inserts, heats them up and spoils them.    

Finish is good, but not as good as I could do very, very slowly with HSS.  Well, I suppose I'm learning.


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## XD351 (Jul 6, 2018)

Machining with carbide is a whole new ballgame  compared to HSS and there are a few things you need to understand:
Carbide inserts have various radii on the cutting edges so fine cuts are a no no so don't expect to knock a few ten thousands off the diameter  like you can with a sharp HSS bit .
They like higher speeds than HSS and heavier cuts so better for roughing out work 
Some types don't like intermittent cuts and can chip easily .
Just like there are cheap pieces of tool steel there are cheap inserts and they for the most part will serve you well i use them as utilitarian cutters and when i need precision i change out to a top quality insert .
You can pick up some amazing stuff on ebay for the right price if you know what you're looking for and do your homework !


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## Jasonb (Jul 6, 2018)

Bottom of  this page shows a few cuts I took at various feeds, speeds and DOC to show how the finish improves when the tip has to work


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## Apprentice707 (Jul 7, 2018)

I have bought carbide tips direct from China and the holders that go with them. They perform well for roughing and first cuts on castings, but I still use a well ground HSS for a good finish and accurate size. I have a Myford Super Seven with a quick change toolpost. I also have a Chinese made parting tool with carbide inserts which I find better than an expensive proprietary item, I use this in a rear toolpost.

Most of my small milling cutters come direct from China and perform well. Friends at my Model Engineering Club were skeptical at first, but now use the same cutters with praise. I have noted that the prices have increased dramatically lately, but the delivery times are still very good (No cost generally)

My final story concerning Chinese made goods involves a 6 jaw chuck.
I was in the USA and was idly browsing E Bay when I came across a new 5" 6 jaw SC chuck at a very good price. I ordered one at noon on a Monday to be delivered to my home in UK. No delivery time quoted so I thought 2 to 4 weeks. On the Tuesday evening caught a plane back to Blighty and arrived at my UK home at noon on the Wednesday. At 14.00 hrs that day a knock on the door and there stood a DPD delivery man with a large heavy box. It was my chuck. 50 hrs from order to receipt, it takes longer to get things from Birmingham with the Royal Mail. The chuck is now in use and a very good addition to my workshop.

Happy Engineering to all


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## LSAGuy (Jul 7, 2018)

When I set up my shop I knew I was going to be cutting a lot of stainless so HS tools were out. I didn't want to get caught needing a bunch of different kinds of carbide inserts so I looked at what insert would serve for lathe and mill and settled on TPG type. I have one small boring bar that uses a CCMT type, and my threading tool uses two different types but they're interchangeable.
If you're using the TPG style inserts you might want to try the TPMR style inserts. They differ from the TPG in having a molded in relief that acts to shave the chip off. To save money the TPU type is a good general purpose type.
While all these insert types are meant to be used with a lot of coolant they do alright with a little cutting oil. In this environment I've not noticed any difference between cheap and expensive inserts except the impact on my wallet.

Rick


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## rlukens (Jul 7, 2018)

I no longer associate "cheap" with China. One would be naive to think China can't produce quality. The truth is we Americans have an  unsatiable appetite for there "cheap" stuff.


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## XD351 (Jul 7, 2018)

Apprentice707 said:


> I have bought carbide tips direct from China and the holders that go with them. They perform well for roughing and first cuts on castings, but I still use a well ground HSS for a good finish and accurate size. I have a Myford Super Seven with a quick change toolpost. I also have a Chinese made parting tool with carbide inserts which I find better than an expensive proprietary item, I use this in a rear toolpost.
> 
> Most of my small milling cutters come direct from China and perform well. Friends at my Model Engineering Club were skeptical at first, but now use the same cutters with praise. I have noted that the prices have increased dramatically lately, but the delivery times are still very good (No cost generally)
> 
> ...



I have ordered some tool post and DRO units from china and they landed on my doorstep in Sydney inside 48hrs  and ordered things from a seller in Sydney and it took two weeks !


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## natalefr (Jul 8, 2018)

My experience about...
Carbide insert from china are good only for a few passes on the piece, they lose the cutting edge quickly, I use the old inserts for the roughing operations and a new one for the finishing operations, in all cases the quality is very low, nothing to do with the inserts and Sandwick tools


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## goldstar31 (Jul 8, 2018)

Are you correctly assessing 'grade for grade' between Sandwik and these Chinese inserts.

I rarely get excited about such trivial matters and almost extensively use his tooling but I appreciate that there are worthwhile blanks and stuff that is little better than masonry nails

Ca Va?

Norm


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## natalefr (Jul 8, 2018)

Hi 
Sometimes I used Sandwick in my job and I had long life of carbide insert even with a couple of millimeters thick, I do not currently have Sandwick inserts and tools because I use my hobby machines that are different from the machines I used at work and I notice that even with max 1mm passes in a short time (two or three passes) surface finish becomes wrinkled
Ca va merci


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## goldstar31 (Jul 8, 2018)

Respectfully, your evaluation of the two situations is somewhat suspect.

The other day, I got into trouble with looking at a ceiling and noted that the machining of acoustic  tiles which were cut and grooved with carbide-- for which I had evaluated tests----- a long, long time ago.

Had I used the same tooling on a home workshop machine, the results would have been quite different.

I shrugged my shoulders in true Gallic form , whispered a French swear word and ---- deleted the entries.

Hoorah for a French sailing mistress!!!!!

Norm


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## vederstein (Jul 8, 2018)

//RANT//

It doesn't matter what the subject is; take your pick:

Cheap mills vs high quality mills.
Cheap lathes vs high end lathes.
Cutting tools
QCTP
Green Sand vs Petrobond
Cheap hand tools vs. good hand tools
Cheap measuring equipment vs Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Shartp,etc.
The proper way to do something vs working with what you've got.
 Someone is always going to say that only the best and highest quality is acceptable.  Others will say cheap itself is a quality in its own.  I say cheap is fine as long as you understand its limitations.

Quite honestly, I'm sick of this conversation.  It comes up time and time again; different subject, same conversation.  Personally I have more admiration for those that create great work with substandard or limited tooling/setups than those that have the best of everything.  On the other hand, if you have the best equipment, good for you, just don't expect other to have your luxuries.

This is a hobby that requires an initial investment of thousands of dollars to get tooled up minimally.  I applaud anyone wanting to enter it.

//END RANT//

...Ved.


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## DJP (Jul 9, 2018)

I'm of the school that old tools are all that I need. There are suppliers to the machining trade and their catalogues are good reading but the prices are intended for production shops where these costs can be passed along to the customer. That's not my case as machining is a hobby that is part of my DNA. I inherited tools from my father and father-in-law that I still use today. My newest machines were all well used in the 1970s before I bought them and I only added a coat of paint. In fact, the only machine that I bought new was a 300 amp stick welder and that was in 1980. 

Mostly my source for tooling comes from estate sales where an old time machinist passed away. With the purchase I get a well used Kennedy box. The treasures are inside and they suit my needs. Even when I do purchase tooling it's the less expensive brands and if they break or get dull I sharpen them for reuse. One recent estate purchase included a collection of carbide inserts which I have mounted to steel holders for lathe cutters. They work well enough for my needs.

In another thread there was discussion of teaching grandkids metal working skills and I am doing the same but I have no illusions that they will have the same DNA requirement to make parts. But if they do, they will find my collection of carbide bit tooling when I'm gone which should get the job done.

For those who maligne Chinese products consider that most global manufacturers moved their facilities and expertise there to save labour costs only. I recently repaired an iPhone and was impressed at the skill that it must take to build and assemble a smart phone. The layers of circuit boards can be gently removed and replaced but it takes fine motor skills, tiny tools and magnifying glasses. The fact that these phones cost so little and are disposable amazes me.

So back to the topic of this thread. If you can afford high end tooling and it works well for you, great. But if not, look for estate sales as there are lots of old tools that will get the job done.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 10, 2018)

As a diversion, I identified a complete set of Quorn castings amongst what I later identified as from the Stent set and someone else traced to centers from Hemingwaykits.

I confess to getting 'broody' and found that the Quorn set were only £80 plus postage  from Bonnie Scotland.

But I have a Quorn hiding in a mess of rust and remains after a disastrous death and winter.
Having a Quorn- and being able to use it, makes child's play of cutting metal- and this is where I came in-- and others should remember.

If one can cut metal accurately- that's it. 

Then someone in my gang of old farts suggests another trip to the joys of HongKong---- and who the hell gets all knotted up about how much or how good their inserts are.

Norm


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## Dubi (Jul 10, 2018)

DJP said:


> I'm of the school that old tools are all that I need. There are suppliers to the machining trade and their catalogues are good reading but the prices are intended for production shops where these costs can be passed along to the customer. That's not my case as machining is a hobby that is part of my DNA. I inherited tools from my father and father-in-law that I still use today. My newest machines were all well used in the 1970s before I bought them and I only added a coat of paint. In fact, the only machine that I bought new was a 300 amp stick welder and that was in 1980.
> 
> Mostly my source for tooling comes from estate sales where an old time machinist passed away. With the purchase I get a well used Kennedy box. The treasures are inside and they suit my needs. Even when I do purchase tooling it's the less expensive brands and if they break or get dull I sharpen them for reuse. One recent estate purchase included a collection of carbide inserts which I have mounted to steel holders for lathe cutters. They work well enough for my needs.
> 
> ...


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## Dubi (Jul 10, 2018)

First rate post. That is exactly how it is. One thing I have noticed is no one has made a comment about using different types of coolant or cutting compounds.

I once tapped a piece of aluminium, as a test, using paraffin and then using Tapamatic. The improvement with Tapamatic was amazing. Coolants and cutting oils make a big difference.


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## DJP (Jul 10, 2018)

I don't push my carbide cutters hard enough to justify coolant systems and my experience with them in big shops is that they stink. I do use a cutting oil and it smokes when things get hot on the machines. When cutting threads I use Chromatap. I bought a gallon decades ago and I need to use it up before trying something different.

I did experiment with a mixture of equal parts kerosene, Varsol and Automatic transmission fluid. A buddy who works in aluminium says it is a good machining fluid in his production shop and inexpensive too.

Cutting fluid is wonderful but you don't need a lot of it.

My thoughts for the discussion.


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## Wizard69 (Jul 17, 2018)

Interesting discussion, most of my machining is related to production machine repair and almost all of the tooling we use is purchased from a local supplier.    I have no idea where some if it comes from, could be the USA, Israel or China for all i know.   How well any of it works depends upon applying the right cutter to the application.   Even the coatings can be an issue as some do not work with Aluminum very well at all.  

So there is the issue of using the proper cutter for the task at hand and the equipment it will be used on.   You really need to take care to make sure that the geometry, rake, coating and other parameters makes sense for the work you expect the carbide to do.  An insert design for a lathe with 25 HP at the spindle doesn't make much sense on a hobby engineering lathe.   In the hobby realm you need to do your research.


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## goldstar31 (Jul 17, 2018)

I re-read Conrad Hoffman's excellent dissertation in his  Conrad and Jeanne's Messy Basement.
He gives a relatively clear explanation of why some of these carbide inserts are unsuitable0 as Wizard69 suggests because of lack of horse power and the 'wrong negative cutting angles'.

Hoffman goes on to explain why an insert will not take a an almost imperseptical cut whereas a quite normal bit of his tooling  will do it.

Finally, he suggests how carbides CAN be honed to do precisely what we oldies can do with his- and sometimes ordinary carbon steel.

Of course, it may appear as heresy to some but do recall that many of the models which are being attempted were made using hss and carbon steel tools.

Thanks again Wizard69 for expanding the discussion.

Me?  I'm at the stage where most of the rust and whatever has been removed  from my version of Dennis Chaddoch's Quorn which if read correctly , gives an insight into the first Door Westbury mill which- clears throat- made his famous v12

Regards

N


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## rockets (Aug 10, 2018)

I have been using tips from Bangood after seeing them recommended on Doubleboost's Youtube channel (no affiliation to either). I have to say that they work just as well as anything else I've used. I've cut a variety of materials, they'll cut EN16, various grades of aluminium and brass without issues. Haven't had any chipped or broken edges either.

Incidentally, I had a box of Kennametal tips which looked identical, and even said contents made in China on the box. I draw some inference from that.

Rockets.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 10, 2018)

As you are more or less a newbie but with a 3 in 1 lathe, it would be a easy matter to make up a 'puck' as suggested by Hoffman.

Thinking about materials as cutting tools,  I used broken glass from WW2 bombed out houses to make 1/72nd scale models and improved safety razor blades in glass tumblers to make obeche and balsa models.  One of my old associates made a Quorn t&c from solid not castings and amongst his workshop tools were things like scrap hexagon keys as lathe tools and motor cycle spoke as boring bars.

Hoffman was merely improving the Holzapfell stuff from Maudsley days.

You might be pleasantly surprised-- and saved a lot of money

Regards

Norm


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## BIGTREV (Aug 10, 2018)

I use cheap Chinese Carbide Tips, but I only do shed work(nothing to technical) and I luv em, I buy the cheapest l can find on ebay, or Aliexpress.  
Virtually everything I learnt at college in the 1970's, about speed/RPM has gone out of the window


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## backyard_cnc (Oct 19, 2018)

My cheap Chinese carbide insert threading tools actually outperform my expensive American made crap. 2 carbide inserts alone  for my American tool cost about the same as I paid for my Chinese toolholder and 10 inserts. The American inserts are brittle and easily chipped so I rarely finish a project on one edge alone yet the cheap Chinese inserts just last and last!  I would suggest that no one should dismiss these inserts or tools on the basis of price or country of origin!


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## biqut2 (Oct 20, 2018)

I am a machinist and run various inserts daily on multiple lathes and mills. The majority of our tooling is Sandvick, we also run Secco, kennametal, HSS and hand ground carbide. In my home shop I use tooling from China exclusively. I would rank the tooling as follows:

1. Kennametal/Secco
2. Everything else
3. There are cheap and quality versions of everything

If you purchase the abosolute cheapest insert you can find that's exactly what you'll get. In my experience a lot of quality can be obtained from China. For example I have compared tnmg22 inserts; 

China: Holder $10/Inserts $3 each
Sandvick: Holder $150/ inserts $25 each

End result is that the tooling from China performs equally or actually better in some applications, and at a fraction of the price.

Now I have also tried some of the $6 holders and $1 inserts and found them to be very much inferior.


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## Ozwes007 (Oct 20, 2018)

Just my 2 cents worth. I use carbide inserts nearly everyday at work in lathes and mills, cutting anything from bearings to 1040 grades steels, plastics, aluminium, brass, bronze etc etc. in most cases I use Iscar, or kenametal inserts. 
Fact 1 is that a better grade(not quality) for the material and cutting style will normally last me about 8 hours of cutting per tip(triangle double sided insert has 6 tips)
Fact 2 is that I can with ease get dimensions to within 0.02 of a millimeter on most ferrous and non ferrous materials. Plastic it depends on the hardness.
Fact 3 is that taking a small cut with accuracy to .02mm(0.05 or lower) with carbide requires high speeds and a high rake cutting tip
Fact 4 is that carbide tips go down to 0.2mm radius tips(you can get lower$) and the reason is that carbide is a sintered material and the quantity of carbide to binder is altered to give different grades this means that the tip will fail if the radius is to small.
Carbide used in a wood mouldings head is as sharp as HSS and lasts so much longer in use that HSS is considered obserd. This carbide is very brittle. That carbide used in milling machines to  cut raw cast iron is extremely tough, but it can’t be honed or sharpened to a fine edge.
Usually with cheap carbide tips you will find they are more binder than carbide so sharp, honed and small radius inserts rarely work well. And as always the general rule is the depth of cut should be just over half the radius and the feed should be around the radius of the tip(alter to double and half to change between fine feed and heavy cuts)
And as always understanding your tooling is half the battle, remember carbide doesn’t actually cut material like HSS, it shears(rubs) the material off. That’s why it is so shiny when it is done right.


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## lennardhme (Oct 21, 2018)

Interesting subject, & one that I think should be encouraged - there are always new folk entering the hobby who could learn a lot from such discussions.
For my part, I spend probably more time than most sharpening end mills, as I am the allocated end mill sharpener using our club's machine. This does not make me an expert, but I do spend a lot of time examining bits with a magnifying glass.
My findings are that after sharpening, carbide end/slot mills, are equally as sharp as HSS counterparts. The difference is that after a short period of use, carbide mills have a noticeable, but very slight wear, on their cutting edge,[using a magnifying glass] whereas HSS usually  does'nt.
From then on the change in wear pattern is quite noticeably reversed. HSS has a gradual dulling of cutting edges, until the tool becomes noticeably blunt. Wear on a carbide bit is much slower, & it can be used very much longer before the need for sharpening becomes evident. I put this down to the much harder material suffering from microscopic chipping rather than wear.
It is this 'grey' period that causes me to prefer HSS [as a hobbyist, & in most cases] over carbide,  because the deterioration in finish is sometimes hard to pick with carbide. 
Just my findings for what they're worth.
cheers, Lennard.


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## mohavegun (Oct 21, 2018)

MRA said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I recently bought a cheap (£35-ish) R8 4-insert 50mm face cutter, and I've been playing with it on the Bridgeport at work.  I bought a cheap one as I reckon I've more chance of smashing up the tips by doing something daft, than wearing them out doing appropriate things lots of times at high speed as in a production environment - which we are not.  Saying that, branded replacement tips are available in the right shapes, at much higher prices.
> 
> ...



I use a lot of low priced and quite often Chinese cutting tools.  I find that for the most part they hold up quite well.  There are those that are not properly sharpened or do not fit exactly as they should but generally speaking they are usually quite good.

The problem I have with running any carbide tool 'slow and easy" is that the lower speeds tends to damage the tool much faster and worse than running at high speeds.  I have one job that repeats in my shop where I cut .065" deep and 3/4" diameter and remove about 30 square inches of material from the surface of heat treated 4140 sheet steel (Rockwell C 40 -48). I am using some lower cost S. Korean made inserted end mills (3/4" dia  flute) and I see very good tool life in the 150 sfm (800 RPM) range but the tools tend to break down when I run much slower than that and I have pushed these tools up over 250 sfm (1500 RPM) without noticing excess wear or failure.  I also have noted that too light a feed rate is detrimental as well and the best finish and tool life are both found at somewhat elevated feed rates.  I do these cuts on a 5 HP manual milling machine with water based coolant and power feeds.  In my world I like to see 15 to 20 parts on a set of insert edges or 30 to 40 parts per set of inserts.  Sometimes I can get over 50 parts on one set of edges!  I bought these tools for about $100 US with 10 inserts, a similar tool by Kennametal is about $190 US and inserts cost about $12 each.  I rest my case!

Other factors affect carbide tool life, especially interrupted cuts, as when you cut through a slot or hole, coming out of a cut then slamming right back into the cut will very quickly take out your cutting edge on most carbide tools, Cobalt and High Speed Steel does better here.

The tools I tend to shy away from are made in India, I have lost faith in Indian carbide tools.

About 1/3 of the later model machines and cutting tools in my shop are of Taiwan, China or Korea origin. 

I am not impressed with Chinese lathe and drill chucks!

I do have good comparison tooling, I use a lot of Kennametal inserts and USA made carbides.

As for cheap hack saw blades,  I don't!  I have 3 band saws and blade welder so I cut up band saw blade for my hacksaws and get the blades cheap that way, I use Lennox mostly and it holds up extremely well in hand sawing operations!

I have called myself a machinist since I started my apprenticeship back in 1968, which was at least a couple of days ago!


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## tornitore45 (Oct 21, 2018)

> it shears(rubs) the material off


More like a plow or even more accurately like a bulldozer moves earth.


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## bazmak (Oct 21, 2018)

Good post Leonard, most model engineers will use whatever they have.I use cheap carbide most of the time
if I am concerned about hard spots ie cast iron or welded parts simply because they last longer.A few seconds with HSS on the wrong material
will remove the cutting edge instantly.My main concern with carbide is chipping especially with interupted cuts.But the tips can be refreshed
a few times with a diamond wheel therefore prolonging life. For better finish on most non hard material then my choice would be HSS
I also have a large stock of rebar which I use if I need a high tensile part.I usually rough them down with cheap carbide tools and finish
with HSS. In my youth carbide was very expensive and I was told that RCt could not be sharpened That I now know is not the case
In general I now use what I have and what suits the application best.No hard and fast rul;es


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## lennardhme (Oct 22, 2018)

Thanks bazmak,
  I'm the same- only use carbide when required. Its horses for courses.
I have since viewed various carbide & hss endmills under an electron microscope. The hss develops a polished rounded edge as it blunts. The carbide is quite different in that the cutting edge is serrated looking, which are in fact tiny chips; too small to see with a magnifying glass, at least with my tired old eyes. The chips eventually develop into a 'wall ' which, due to its hardness, still 'cuts 'as others have mentioned.
Happy machining,
cheers Lennard.


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## goldstar31 (Oct 22, 2018)

I don't wish to interfere but as I live in the UK, there is an apparent problem of customs duty on Chinese imports.

I have checked before posting- with the regional director of a rather large- bloody big!- letters and parcels International firm.  His view was not to add problems in old age for such a small benefit.

I do have a Far Eastern and Indian connection but don't want to run foul of UK regulations

Thank You

Norm


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## nel2lar (Oct 22, 2018)

[QUOTE="XD351, post: 310056, 
You can pick up some amazing stuff on ebay for the right price if you know what you're looking for and do your homework ![/QUOTE]

XD
Since you seem to know what you are talking about what would be a top shelf insert for most cutting? I bought a box of ten and there is a huge learning curve on them. I waste enough money on things I want and can not afford to have boxes of these inserts that just shatter.
Nelson


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## rmd55 (Oct 22, 2018)

Unless you are using Sandvick, which has their own mines.  The carbide that you get has a very good chance of being Chinese.  80% of the carbide used in the world comes from China and the Chinese have been making high quality product carbide materials since the 1980's.  I worked in oil related carbide in the 80's and 90's.  We had 3 grades of carbide, cast(never used for machining), 6% cobalt, and 12% cobalt. We also rolled pellets.  By 1984 all the cast carbide was imported from China, in-house production was shutdown.   By 1990 we had to start to import pellets because the Chinese pellets were better than what we could make.  They could use manufacturing that OSHA would not allow here.  They rolled the pellets with rubber dissolved in gasoline(petrol).    I use a mix of carbide and HSS.   I usually break the inserts before they wear out, but I have only been doing machining for a few years and Utube taught.   I have some Chinese tooling but also watch for sales and have picked up some Dorian tools when they are ~$2o.  The difference I see in the tooling is the finish.   The Dorian tools have a better finish also I can get a better description of the tool from Dorian.   The Chinese tools give the shank size and the insert size.  Dorian give things like rake angle so I can stay away from the highly negative rake tools.   That's my 2 cent


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## Wizard69 (Oct 24, 2018)

Just got row everybody’s curve, you can get HSS inserts these days.  Carbide good or bad isn’t your only choice.  HSS inserts for turning are an interesting development but I still think there is huge value in grinding HSS yourself.


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## Ozwes007 (Oct 24, 2018)

One other thing you may need to be aware of is the tool holder in all this. Cheap holders are made from inferior materials. I have seen this to many times to discount it. Boring bars are usually the easiest to see this in. You will get from mild to wild harmonics and tip seat distortion in these tool holders. Even had the odd seat area break out. Harmonics of the holder will destroy most tips very quickly.
To the point of carbide construction, new carbide tips use many exotic materials in there binder to increase individual characteristics of the carbide. On top of that many new tips are designed to be run extremely hot and won’t work properly if not spun fast enough. The coating of the tip is also a major factor in its usage. If your mill or lathe is designed(speed range) for HSS then use HSS, your just going to be disappointed otherwise.


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## Apprentice707 (Dec 4, 2018)

DJP said:


> I'm of the school that old tools are all that I need. There are suppliers to the machining trade and their catalogues are good reading but the prices are intended for production shops where these costs can be passed along to the customer. That's not my case as machining is a hobby that is part of my DNA. I inherited tools from my father and father-in-law that I still use today. My newest machines were all well used in the 1970s before I bought them and I only added a coat of paint. In fact, the only machine that I bought new was a 300 amp stick welder and that was in 1980.
> 
> Mostly my source for tooling comes from estate sales where an old time machinist passed away. With the purchase I get a well used Kennedy box. The treasures are inside and they suit my needs. Even when I do purchase tooling it's the less expensive brands and if they break or get dull I sharpen them for reuse. One recent estate purchase included a collection of carbide inserts which I have mounted to steel holders for lathe cutters. They work well enough for my needs.
> 
> ...




Good article DJP, if machining and making things is your hobby, you set your own standards to "Please You" and no one else. Most of us work to a budget, we would be a fool not to. Love this hobby when I get the urge to "Cut Metal"  to hell with critics that is what I do.


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## mohavegun (Dec 4, 2018)

I have worked the best part of the last 50 years in one form or another of machine work & metal crafts...  I have used good tools and bad tools, sharp ones and dull ones, cheap ones and expensive ones....  As for my machines, the oldest machine in my shop was built in 1923, the newest in 1999.  My best lathe was built in 1951 (Not my newest lathe).

I have a goofy respect for Chinese carbides...  The problem is this,  China today has more iron foundries and steel mills than the total assets of the rest of the world, and no doubt they have more machinists, metal workers, foundry workers and steel workers than the combined total of the rest of the world!  With that said, along with China being a major world contender in military, conquest of space, ship building and of course general manufacturing..   Well it has to follow that they are doing a hell of a lot of things very right!

Try not to buy the CHEAPEST Chinese tools, some of their better tools are very inexpensive by comparison to some of our tools such as Kennametal, etc.  BUT understand the tools necessary to keep China on top of the pile are probably mostly made in China!

I recently had a positive experience with some "cheap drill bits" from Harbor Freight,  I needed 1/8 bits and had just ordered some from a major US supplier.  The HF tools went home with me and got put into the fray,  first one broke on first hole!  bummer....  Second drill drilled over 500 holes!  I kept using them till two days later when my American Made "Hole Hogs" came in,  drill for drill through the next 2500 holes the "Cheap HF' drills out-drilled the Cobalt Hole Hogs on holes 1 1/4" deep in 6061 aluminum!  So you never know about Chinese tools.  The package of Chinese drills cost less than one "Hole Hog" and drilled closer to diameter of the drill, the HH drills tended to clog with chips in the deep hole.  I treated  both brands of drills alike but had noticeably better results with the Chinese drills.  I say Harbor Freight hit a home run on this one!  This project was a "screw machine run" of parts with 1/8" holes 1.25" deep in 1/4" hex bar, cycle time on the machine allowed about 45 seconds to drill the hole, flood oil coolant , part velocity 1,500 RPM.  Hole hogs would bind and stick in the part at failure, sometimes they would twist right out of the tool holder without breaking, the Chinese drills just broke, sometimes only the last 1/4" of the drill, sometimes at the shank but they always broke in the end and did not come out of the holder.  I consider the test "fair" because nothing was changed in setup, pilot drill or cam, both drills had identical exposure to part, identical cooling and identical materials.

Rod

China is currently building a lot of components and complete vehicles even for the American auto industry,  Chevrolet specifically has put a lot of their manufacturing in Chinese shops... so much for "The Heartbeat of America"!  Just my comment.


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## Luc De Wispelaere (Apr 3, 2019)

I know from a sales manager in Belgium that these are real Iscar inserts, made in China
Iscar has a factory in China, and they make the same ISCAR inserts as in Europe


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