# Dependant On Technology



## robwilk (Oct 14, 2011)

I was at work today talking to a draughtsman when we had to measure a part so i went to my toolbox and got my vernier gauges out measured the part and told him it was 10.62mm . I was not prepared for the answer.  He said that i could not measure that accurately using those verniers.  I then asked if he knew how to read a set of verniers he said no. I then asked how he measured things to which he replied I use digital gauges.
To settle the argument we had to go to his office and measure the same part using his digital gauges and guess what it measured 10.62mm.
In disbelief that somebody didn't know how to read a vernier gauge i asked the second draughtsman to read my gauges and he could not do it either. 
Then some more people came in the office . The production Manager welding manager and a fitter so i gave them all the same gauges . But still no one could read them more than just saying just over 10mm. ??? are people that reliant on technology.

Rob......


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 14, 2011)

well Rob imho young people are that dependent on technology. when I grew up telephones were attached to wires in a building. Electronic calculators were the new rage in High School math and science classes. personal computers were a new thing and expensive. the internet had not been invented yet. ... and I learned to read verier calipers and micrometers. 
today digital calipers of the import variety are about the same price as verniers and mechanical dials. I have a set of verniers but seldom use them. Bet those young kids do not know how to use a slide rule either LOL. 
Tin


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## Russel (Oct 14, 2011)

People's preferences are kind of funny. In the industrial equipment repair shops that I've worked in, almost everyone preferred digital calipers, some liked dial calipers. I've always used vernier calipers because they are very durable, and can sit in your too box for years and still work fine when you need them, no battery change required. I always liked it when someone couldn't measure with their digital calipers because the battery was dead. I would offer to let them use my vernier calipers and would have to read the measurement for them.


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## robwilk (Oct 14, 2011)

Well I am 31 years old and learnt how to read verniers when I was 15-16 years old. But some not all of these people were up to 10 years older than me and claim to be experts at what they do.
(Definition of a expert) A EX is a has been and a SPURT is a drip under pressure. ;D

As for digital gauges I have a set but got fed up with changing the battery as Russel said they always run out when you need them the most so went back to my old verniers which never fail.

Rob....


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## mhh (Oct 14, 2011)

Look at you old people! Sitting there rambling about the good old days and those pesky young people who can't do anything without technology! ;D
To quote Tin Falcon: 'Bet those young kids do not know how to use a slide rule either LOL.' No we don't and we don't need to!  Why did you learn to use a slide ruler? to calculate faster! That's what the calculator is for! 

I'm 25 and I know how to use a pair of vernier calipers but digital is just a more useful! that being said I almost always use a micrometer to measure(not digital because they are not that cheap!).
But nevermind that!

Before you go on rambling take a look at your own generation! ;D A lot of old people don't know how to use a computer and I've actually heard some say that they don't believe in digital clocks because they are not precise enough! hehe

This is in no way meant to be disrespectful just a laugh! ;D


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## mu38&Bg# (Oct 14, 2011)

Vernier calipers are a thing of the past, but I like mine. Nothing breaks or wears out. I'm fairly certain I learned how to read a vernier in drafting class in high school. I'm 34 BTW.

Greg


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 14, 2011)

I do agee that the battery thing on digital is a pain . I keep extras on hand.
Tin


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## dalem9 (Oct 14, 2011)

I remove my battery when I know I won't be using them for a while .Saves on batteries and don't have to worry about the battery corroding and ruining the tool. Dale


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## mhh (Oct 14, 2011)

Something I've noticed with a lot of the digital tools is that the more you pay for it the longer the battery time. I use a TESA at work and it usually takes a year before the battery is dead. At home I used to use a cheat diesella and I had to change the battery about every month. threw it away after a year realising that I could buy a more expensive and still save money because I didn't have to change the battery as often.


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## mklotz (Oct 14, 2011)

mhh  said:
			
		

> Look at you old people! Sitting there rambling about the good old days and those pesky young people who can't do anything without technology! ;D
> To quote Tin Falcon: 'Bet those young kids do not know how to use a slide rule either LOL.' No we don't and we don't need to!  Why did you learn to use a slide ruler? to calculate faster! That's what the calculator is for!



Plus, most of these oldsters will brag about using their CAD program to avoid solving a geometry problem by hand or using the bolt-circle function on the DRO to avoid calculating coordinates.


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## robwilk (Oct 14, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Plus, most of these oldsters will brag about using their CAD program to avoid solving a geometry problem by hand or using the bolt-circle function on the DRO to avoid calculating coordinates.


 ;D Thm:


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## mhh (Oct 14, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Plus, most of these oldsters will brag about using their CAD program to avoid solving a geometry problem by hand or using the bolt-circle function on the DRO to avoid calculating coordinates.


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## Catminer (Oct 14, 2011)

mhh  said:
			
		

> Something I've noticed with a lot of the digital tools is that the more you pay for it the longer the battery time. I use a TESA at work and it usually takes a year before the battery is dead. At home I used to use a cheat diesella and I had to change the battery about every month. threw it away after a year realising that I could buy a more expensive and still save money because I didn't have to change the battery as often.



 I agree completely my Mitutoyo stuff never is turned off and the Batteries last years at a time. The Chinese copy needs a battery every month even when turned off.

 Peter


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## Deanofid (Oct 14, 2011)

mhh  said:
			
		

> Look at you old people! Sitting there rambling about the good old days and *those pesky young people who can't do anything without technology!* ;D



There's a big fat boulder of truth in that. Young people now get to use calculators and such in school for their math classes. All this gadgetry is not doing them any favors.
We recently had a short power outage in my small town. I was in the drug store at the time, picking up prescriptions so I can continue getting older. Suddenly they couldn't sell any product because none of these 'bright' young folks could figure a simple 6% sales tax without the cash register to tell them. Being one of the codgers in the store, I showed a clerk how to do that so I could pay and be on my way. It took for ever, since he did not know his multiplication tables, either.  When it came time for me to give the clerk my money, he was unable to make change, (because the machine that tells him what to think was not working due to the power outage). 

Yeah, the "good ol' days" taught us old people a few things. Like, how to deal with the simplest little problems that stop the young 'smart' folks in their tracks.


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## Maryak (Oct 14, 2011)

I think that as a species we have always relied on and used the technology available to us. The sad thing is that as technology becomes obsolete we tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Sshire (Oct 14, 2011)

I can count turns of my mill's hand wheel but the dro doesn't lose count. Interruptions ALWAYS happen (phone rings, UPS guy at door with Enco order) at about hand wheel count 14 (or was it 15?)
My micrometers (1"-4") are mechanical and I can read them just fine but I do love my new Starrett digital 0"-1".
I'm typing this response on my iPad (there must be a newer term) as I sit on the front porch. I'm using the MacBook Pro less and less, just as I used the slide rule less when the first affordable calculators became available. Trig tables didn't need batteries but I'll take the calculator. 
I taught photography at the college level for 30+ years and I wouldn't go back to film cameras or a darkroom at gunpoint. 
Time marches on. 

Stan


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## Gedeon Spilett (Oct 15, 2011)

Hi,
The caliper is based on a principle so simple, smart and clever that in using it, a little bit of that intelligence falls on me. Just like looking at a masterpieces, with a digital caliper, I dont feel in a similar situation, i'm simply using a tool.
 Zephyrin


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## Blogwitch (Oct 15, 2011)

IMHO, the age gap problem arises, like myself, where I tried to keep up with the latest technology, but because of failing brainpower, I just couldn't.

I would love to get into CAD and all the other myriad of 'modern day' things, but I just don't have the retentive power to be able to do so, and believe me, I have tried.

Getting back to verniers. I only use digiverns when there is nothing critical to measure, I have found that since using them from the mid 80's, they are just not accurate enough for precision measuring, but my vernier and clock calipers are accurate to less than 0.001" or 0.02mm, whichever I am using.

With reference to battery failure in digital instruments. It might be you are buying the cheaper versions of the batteries (LR44) rather than the recommended silver oxide ones (SR44). I used to have the same problems until I changed battery type, now no longer a problem.

John


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## Ken I (Oct 15, 2011)

My nephew has just completed high school and is mathematically illitterate because he was taught to do maths on a calculator.

Ask him "What's 113.6 times 10" - he can't do it in his head (I'm not making this up - I've been tasked with helping him more times than I can remember - and the boy's not stupid).

Worse if he makes a mistake with the calculator - like 11.36 x 10 (misplaces the decimal, misses the zero or some other digit etc. etc.) - he takes the answer as gospel.

Now when I do a calcultion on a calculator - my "head calculator" is doing an approximation - if my head doesn't agree with the calculator - one of us must be wrong - recalculate.

He's not alone - there is a veritable army of mathematically incompetent people out there.

I think technology is wonderful and use as much of it as I can get my hands on (and master) but without an innate understanding of what you are actually doing you are flying an airplane with the autopilot without actually knowing how to fly.

It's dangerous.

Here's an example :-

While filling a boat's fuel tank at a remote costal town - the antiquated pump only went to R999.99 - but the boat takes R1500 to fill up - the pump showed R500 - so that's what the attendant charged me.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I reported this to the gas station's owner - I was apparently the first to do so - so he hits the roof and says that probably explains his massive forecourt losses.

The point I think I am trying to make is that one requires more than the ability to use the technology - you need to understand what the hell you are doing.

Ken


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## robwilk (Oct 15, 2011)

The thing with technology is that at some time it will let you down whether it be your iPhone or ipad or computer or gauges or even your lathe it doesn't matter how much you have spent on the item nothing is infallible it just seems a shame that the core skills are not taught any more as a back up . Also that people don't want to know how things are done manually just in case .
 In my job things would be a lot easier and quicker if i used air tools all the time or cordless impact wrenches but i find you can do more damage using them than using a ratchet and feeling what you are doing. Also a lot of my work is done in fields in the middle of no where with no back ups so if a piece of technology lets me down (Which has happened) i am in big trouble. So i try to avoid it as much as possible. But still I get young lads coming to work with me who will not use anything except for air tools then when i check there work things are loose or over tight but when they have to use hand tools they struggle.

Rob.....


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## minerva (Oct 15, 2011)

Guys 
I just had to reply to this one following a conversation which took place on similar lines to this thread that I had only yesterday. It took place with four of my very good friends (20- 40 year olds) who run our local computer shop. They all are in their own ways specialists within the various aspects of computing and offer in general terms a super service to our local community. The question of the quality of the teaching of mathematics was raised, and I made the point that I felt that old fashioned arithmetic skills were no longer taught as an essential basic primer to the later teaching of mathematics .This statement was pooh-poohed as not a valid point. at this juncture I posed the question "what is one divided by zero" now I got two distinctly wrong answers from the assembled group, the first - "zero" was backed up by a demonstration using a pocket calculator, when I asked what the small letter "E" in the corner of the display signified I was told briefly "nothing", the second answer proffered was almost as predictable "1", the reasoning behind this was simply that zero could not possibly alter the "one " that exists in the top line when the problem is written as a fraction.
Now I proved to all their satisfaction that the correct answer is in fact "infinity". and the "E" in the calculator was in fact the machine running out of memory and thereby giving up.
Is there a moral to be learned here?, I don't know but I always remember my great mentor
 (my Grandfather) saying that Chippendale would have used chip board- had it been available to him.
It's not the method used that is important its the quality of the result and furthermore if we remember that man put men on the moon on the backs of slide rules and technology of 40+ years ago just think what today's technology should achieve .......watch this space


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## Swede (Oct 15, 2011)

Guys - the solution to the battery thing is to buy them in bulk off the internet. Instead of browsing at a drug store and paying $7 for two, you can buy a tray of 'em (like 50 or 100) for less than 50 cents each. Stick the tray in a drawer of your tool chest. It'll last a decade.

You won't fret about wasting batteries anymore.

That said, my favorite measuring tool is a 4" Mitutoyo solar caliper. The feel on it is perfect, and dead-accurate. No batteries.


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## pcw (Oct 15, 2011)

till now i dont have any digital calipers or measure thingamajiggies at all. maybe im bit to old school for that. i can read them just as fast as some young kids in school read the digital ones. ow, and i know how much 12 times 17 is without needing a calculator. ;D
Pascal


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## Russel (Oct 15, 2011)

Ken I  said:
			
		

> My nephew has just completed high school and is mathematically illiterate because he was taught to do maths on a calculator.[...]



Some technology just can't really be replaced for it's versatility and durability. The knife is a good example, I'll bet everyone reading this has one in their kitchen, or otherwise. Other technology can be very useful, but it is important to employ our brain in it's use. I learned multiplication tables using a calculator. My dad bought one of the first four bangers (add, subtract, multiply, and divide) around 1970. He sat me down to learn the multiplication tables by multiplying different numbers on the calculator and coming up with the answer in my head, then pressing the equals button. That way if I had the answer wrong, the correct answer was reinforced. I always thought that learning multiplication tables was boring until I got to do it with a calculator. He (my dad) told me that there is nothing wrong with using a calculator to learn math as long as you are thinking and using the calculator to speed things up by taking care of the simple math while you concentrate on the complex stuff. Of course, he also insisted us kids knew how to perform simple math skillfully with a pencil and paper first.

Technology can be a great benefit, but it is up to as to apply it to our benefit.

These days, I get plenty of basic math practice using my mill and lathe. It's kind of funny, sometimes when I've been machining something late at night it takes me a little while for me to "wind down" before I can sleep.


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## Jeremy_BP (Oct 15, 2011)

I think a mark of being truly good with technology is being able to get by without it.

I can say that I use my computer all the time. I use a calculator. I listen to music on an mp3 player. I use a word processor. But I also learn to do everything without that. 
I take my math tests (calculus) without the recommended graphing calculator. I use a scientific, because I don't just want to solve the problem, I want to understand it. When the machine does the thinking for you, you lose the capacity to do the thinking for yourself.

I am growing up in an age where all I've ever known is computers (I have a picture of myself when I was three with a mac plus). So as computers make more and more obsolete, I feel the need to learn what the computer replaced. I can use a slide rule. I repair typewriters. And hell, I'm here on a machining forum. I'm also developing RepRap 3D printers. I worry about losing so much of the history of technology.

Going back to machining, I use both digital and vernier calipers. Neither of them slip or jam, and the vernier only takes half an instant longer to read than the digital. The one that's closer at hand is the one I use.

Sorry for my rather incoherent ramble.


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## pcw (Oct 16, 2011)

imagine where we all would be, and what we all would be doing if electrical power went down worldwide. think that would knock us back few hundred years. 
pcw


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## Sshire (Oct 17, 2011)

Anyone have plans for a treadle-powered mill?


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## mike os (Oct 18, 2011)

I think we are all utterly dependent on technology, even us old guys. The tech we rely on was "high tech, "needs a slide rule, cant he do it in his head?" to the old boys when we were young... & goes back to "look at him using a pointed stick, why cant he just use a club like everyone else?"


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## steam oil (Oct 18, 2011)

I was recently looking through some 60s model engineers. Back then workshops usually consisted of a lathe with attachments, a bench drill and a grinder, plus hand tools. I wonder what it will be like in 50 years time with every one using automatic lathes and milling machine etc.

Brian


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