# Filing Machine - cranking it old-school



## shred (Jan 2, 2009)

New Years Eve day I'm heading up to a friends shop to fix a few computers and run across a 'Die Filer' for sale. Since I'd been eyeing the MLA filing machine kit (http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-18.html) ever since seeing one at another guy's shop, and it was pretty cheap, I snagged it. 

As near as I can tell from reading the old sources, strictly speaking this isn't officially a Die-Filer, but a Bench Filing Machine; while the difference is fairly small, the former are usually larger, while the Bench Filers are typically smaller and simpler with a shorter stroke and often no overarm. That's good for me. I rarely have need to file dies, but often want to file other things.





The table on this one is about 8" square and the stroke is about 1.5". It's made by "Postel" of Minneapolis, MN (well, the casting says "POSTEL  MPLS, MINN")-- there is scant information I've been able to find on the internet; mostly old references to eBay listings, but never mind; it's a pretty simple creature--- turn the crank and the spindle goes up and down. Some of the eBay listings claim it's a scroll saw, but they all seem to be the same chunk of cast iron. The table adjusts for tilt in two axes via thumbscrews underneath. Obviously I'd have to add a motor and make some files for it.

Since I had a spare 1/3 HP motor gathering dust I figured I'd use that. All I needed was a V-belt pulley for it..

Now for a minor rant. It seems like every time I go into a 'Big Box' "hardware" store lately, I get irritated by the near-complete lack of useful items. Today was a double shot. First not only do neither Lowes nor Home Depot carry V-belt motor pulleys of any sort (they will first direct you to the rope pulleys, then lawn & garden), but the V-belts they do have are specially labeled for lawnmowers and $25+ each! Fueling my irritation yet further was the knowledge that Tractor Supply carries all manner of motors and pulleys and belts, so obviously there is a market for them... except the nearest TS store is at least 15 miles away. So I get the bright idea after striking out twice to hit up an auto parts store. Hey, fan belts weren't that long ago and alternators sometimes still have V-belts.... so in to the counter (unless you want chrome gee-gaws and colored lights, there's nothing you want on the open shelves) and ask "I need a V-belt pulley". "For what car?". "I don't really care. 1/2" belt, 1/2" shaft; alternator pulley, fan pulley, whatever". "I don't know where anything like that is, if you don't tell me what car it's for, I can't find it" ??? ??? ??? Finally they get the "manager" over and he manages to produce, after considerable exertion.. an idler pulley, and claims it's all they have, which I seriously doubt, but have exhausted all my patience for incompetence by now. 

It's no wonder we're a disposable culture now if you can't get basic items to make things with. Rant over.

So, Plan B-- make a pulley.

A quick Google gives me this link http://metalwebnews.org/mr-tools/pulleys.pdf. A nifty 1954 'Duplex' article on making V-belt pulleys (nb: snag a copy now if you might ever want it.. these kinds of articles have a tendency to disappear), even giving some useful angles for the size I want to make (at this point I still have no idea what the 'proper' speed for this thing is, so I figured 'small' was what I wanted pulley-wise). Buut... the article strongly suggests using 'cranked' tool bits, so half the angle can be cut without running into the chuck. Wait a second.. I have some of those that came with my old 1930's Sheldon lathe that I chucked in the back of a drawer as soon as I got the QCTP for it. Dust one off and wow, look at that, the bit in it (been there since well before I got it) is almost exactly ground to the shape I need. Things are looking up. Until I try to put the Armstrong into a QCTP holder on the new lathe. Crud.. too tall, won't fit. So much for using the new 12" lathe. Back to the dusty drawer and the 1930's leather flat-belt Sheldon. Off with the QCTP and on with the lantern toolpost. Cruise around all 50 oil cups with the oil can. All I need is to do this between centers with an overhead belt drive and I'd really be kicking it old-school!

Anyway, returning to the land of color photos  whack out a chunk of Al, cutout the middle of the v-groove with a parting tool, swing the compound around to 16 degrees and cut one angle, then angle the other way and cut the next. Reset the bit height as needed. Drill and ream for 1/2" shaft. Kinda peaceful with the quiet slap slap of the old leather belt and max speed of 350 RPM. A big change from the new gear-head 12". I get reminded what chatter is like too 




D&T for a set screw and clean up-- voila, pulley.



I made a base of a rejected computer case, and mounted the filer and motor




Now all I need is some files. This isn't as easy as you'd expect at first glance. Die filers and Bench filers cut on the downstroke. A typical file tang is at the wrong end for a filing machine. In addition, the files need to be straight, without taper. Two strikes against your typical file.

Sometimes die-filer files are available on eBay and at a very few machine supply places for fairly high prices. Pretty much nobody uses die-filers commercially anymore, so demand is very low. Bench-filer files are even rarer. The MLA kit comes with some sources for files and instructions on converting them to pull instead of push.

My initial plan was to get some tapered files, break off the tapered part (most only taper for half their length or so), and grind and solder a pull end opposite the tang (this is basically the MLA method as I understand it). But, while otherwise cursing the uselessness of Home Depot, I did discover something interesting in the tool aisle. The cheap files aren't tapered! I assume it's a cost saving measure by somebody in China that doesn't know any better, but it's good news for the die-filer fans. Here's one such set:




All I had to do was install a 1/4" mounting piece. On the round file, it was a simple matter of whacking some 1/4" OD brass tubing over the end (this filer takes 1/4" round shank tools and has a set-screw to tighten them)




The tang-end is the upper end in the picture. I broke it off once I decided on a good length for the file. I've yet to convert the 3-sided and flat files, but I'm guessing some dinking around with my T&C grinder will be needed, followed by some epoxying or soldering. I may get into the needle-files for some other shapes as needed. Marv suggests making a bushing to reduce the file hole for tiny work and I may do that someday as well.

Here's an overview of the whole setup-- obviously I need to cover those motor openings from loose filings soon.




One with the front cover off to show the guts:




... and the money shot:




Using this is very easy on thin stock. It cuts very controllably. I'm happy with it.


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## speakerme (Jan 2, 2009)

great job Schred!!!

Best Wishes

Chuck M


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## rleete (Jan 2, 2009)

shred  said:
			
		

> It's no wonder we're a disposable culture now if you can't get basic items to make things with.



We're partially a disposable society because you can't get the parts to make stuff. Most people I know, even the ones who would fabricate more, are frustrated in getting parts. Supporting big box stores has killed off the neighborhood HW stores. 

Anyway, nice find, and nice write up. Interesting piece.


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## kvom (Jan 3, 2009)

I know exactly what you mean about the auto parts stores. Without a car/truck year/model/engine they can't find any parts.  ???

My second school shop projects was to make a pulley, and it was pretty much the same process you used, other than we turned it on a mandrel and broached a keyway at the end.


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## dwentz (Jan 3, 2009)

Lowes and Home Depot don't have much of anything out side of home building, I do not consider them a hardware store, but more of a home building store. I have two wonderful hardware strores close to me. One is called Don's Hardware, and they have everything, if they do not have it they can get it for you in a day or two. They also carry small engine and appliance parts. Its a wonderful place! 

As for as the filing machines, I was looking for one years ago, and found one by accident when I purchased my big lathe. The guy I purchased the lathe from told me if I wanted the lathe, I had to take the die filer! I was not going to argue ;D I do not use it alot, but when you need it there is nothing better.

I scanned the manual I found for mine to a PDF and it is on my website if you are interested.
www.wentztech.com/metalworking

Dale


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## shred (Jan 3, 2009)

dwentz  said:
			
		

> As for as the filing machines, I was looking for one years ago, and found one by accident when I purchased my big lathe. The guy I purchased the lathe from told me if I wanted the lathe, I had to take the die filer! I was not going to argue ;D I do not use it alot, but when you need it there is nothing better.
> 
> I scanned the manual I found for mine to a PDF and it is on my website if you are interested.
> www.wentztech.com/metalworking
> ...


Thanks. That's very useful info. Looks like a pretty spiffy machine there. How does the variable-speed work? 

There were two local hardware stores nearby before the big-boxes came in. One was the old-school type place that had a smattering of everything, nails by the pound and did electric motor work on-site. I used to go there a lot because they had what I wanted, but the guys that ran the place had zero idea of customer service and drove a lot of people away (including me a couple times). They closed not long after the Lowes came in. The other turned into an eclectic gift-and-cooking-stuff store with a small amount of hardware shoved over to one side. They still have the wall-of-little-boxes-full-of-parts, so I go there, but its a rare soul that ventures past the custom-painted keys.


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## itowbig (Jan 3, 2009)

shred you can go to a lawn mower repair shop and they should have pullys or can get them. i worked for one a while and i used to order them all the time for people.


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## shred (Jan 3, 2009)

itowbig  said:
			
		

> shred you can go to a lawn mower repair shop and they should have pullys or can get them. i worked for one a while and i used to order them all the time for people.


Thanks for the source. It's good to know where to find things if needed. Since I've made a pulley and know where to get more, the point of the rant is more to bemoan the lack of things-to-build-things-with at the big-box window-treatment & bath-remodel "hardware" stores. As a kid, not that many years ago, I'd go into a hardware store with my dad and think of all the cool things that could be made with the parts they had-- boxes and bins of springs, belts, pulleys, motors, gears, nuts, bolts, metal, wire, etc, etc. Today's kid is going to go into Home Depot and think.. "I guess I could buy some new shelves for the garage". Unless they know to go here for pulleys, there for setscrews, online for taps and on and on, they'll never get the chance to become mechanically creative.  Even the auto-parts places seemed to have enough stuff out that you could, if you wanted, build a complete engine right there in the store. Now there's enough to shine up your tires and install some light-up valve caps.

Sad, I think, though maybe a business opportunity for somebody clever.


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## Stan (Jan 3, 2009)

I have been making my own V pulleys for several years. 6061 and 7075 make a much better pulley than the usual die cast models in the corner hardware. Companies such as Browning make excellent quality industrial pulleys but at a scary price.


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## cfellows (Jan 3, 2009)

Nothing aggravates me more than my local Ace Hardware store. The hardware portion is limited to one aisle in the back of the store where everything is in little bitty drawers. Many of the drawers are empty and they do not carry such screw sizes as 3-48 or 5-40. However you can find a nice assortment of picture frames, wall decorations, and tabletop water features.  

Chuck


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## dwentz (Jan 3, 2009)

shred  said:
			
		

> Thanks. That's very useful info. Looks like a pretty spiffy machine there. How does the variable-speed work?



Variable speed? Did not know it had it so have never tried it 

When I dig it out of its corner I will have to check that feature out. The shop is just about back together, only have to find a place for the die filer, and the 12 ton press. Have some junk piled in from of them both to get rid of so I can put them back into server.

Dale


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## shred (Jan 15, 2009)

BTW, I learned the other day that chainsaw files are also non-tapered. They only seem to come in round, but there are several diameters.

The right way to convert files seems to be grinding down the pull end to form sort of a shank and epoxy or soft-soldering that into a larger piece of mild steel, brass, or whatever.  Then wrap the file body in something protective, chuck it in the lathe jaws and turn the newly attached shank down to size for the filer, rendering the new shank concentric to the file body as well.


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## jack404 (Jan 16, 2009)

i sorta feel like a cave man saying this but with file shanks i get em past cherry red
and get a ball pain hammer and anvil,

shape them any way you want them..

i'll be modding some 6" files for my machine when its that far

jack


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## ksouers (Jan 16, 2009)

Nothing wrong with that, Jack.
Yes, it's great to finesse the metal to your bidding.

But sometimes ya just gotta beat it into submission ;D


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## jack404 (Jan 16, 2009)

Cheers Kevin,

the tangs on files are great to deal with  
the steel is great for heat maleability( getting it red and hittting it to shape) a few hits and reheat, 
when in shape dunk it in oil, (used motor oil is what i use) 
until the temp is such oil runs off it fast but it does not smoke 
about 200-250 deg
take it out and put it in a oven at 480-500 deg F for 40 mins depending on thickness
i do this to ensure they all have the same angles and thickness so they sit tight in the file holder and the metals is not only hard but not brittle

I plan to copy a saw blade fixture from a british machine that needs a groove cut into the tang where the locking screw sits, the idea being the screws 60 deg face digs into the two shoulders of the cut in the tang. 

i dunno the metal grades for files but watched my grandfather make eveything from files or bits of files and i've played with a few myself over the years.


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## shred (Jan 16, 2009)

jack404  said:
			
		

> Cheers Kevin,
> 
> the tangs on files are great to deal with
> the steel is great for heat maleability( getting it red and hittting it to shape) a few hits and reheat,
> ...


I'm all about the blacksmithing.. I did a bit of that long ago and will have to try it on some old file bits (especially as I'm now generating lots of file bits). Must keep an eye out for forges on Craigslist 

Do you have more on the British thing? Sounds interesting.

For converting regular files into die-filer files, the tang is at the wrong end and gets cut off. For me, making a new tang at the other end-- 1/4" dia round concentric to the axis of the file (otherwise they wobble badly in the machine; my first one of tubing-pressed-over-file did that), I'm less keen on softening and re-hardening the file back to useful file-ness, since I'm lazy like that.


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## thezetecman (Jan 22, 2009)

I wonder if you could make a filing machine out of a big box store scroll saw? might have to slow it down a bit?
What do you think?


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## cfellows (Jan 22, 2009)

The problem with most commercial scroll saws these days is the motion of the blade. The blade arms are typically pivoted so the blade moves in an arc instead of up and down. The blade also changes attitude slightly throughout the up and down motion. In other words, it isn't perfectly vertical throughout the stroke. Finally, most of today's scroll saws require the blade (or file) to be attached at both the bottom and the top.

I would think you would have better luck adapting a jig saw for use as a filer. As a mater of fact, I think I've seen plans to do just that.

Chuck


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## Kermit (Jan 22, 2009)

shred  said:
			
		

> I'm all about the blacksmithing.. I did a bit of that long ago and will have to try it on some old file bits (especially as I'm now generating lots of file bits). Must keep an eye out for forges on Craigslist




How about this?
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1981339&PMT4NO=0


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## shred (Jan 22, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> How about this?
> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1981339&PMT4NO=0


Interesting... That might cut down the coal-dust everywhere feature of real blacksmithing... mmm achoo! hey.. pepper!


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