# drafting symbols - what does this mean?



## zeeprogrammer

I'm looking at a drawing - at a symbol I've never seen before.

I was top of class in drafting - but that was 40 years ago. (That's right - pre-cad). And...I've only started machining a few months ago...so my knowledge is both old and limited. Okay, I'll say it, near non-existent. (Now show me a schematic and I'll say...yep...that's what it is...a schematic.) 

In any case...

The symbol looks like a large check mark (or V with one leg shorter than the other) with a number inside. One shows 32 and another 64. The part I'm looking at is the crankshaft for a launch engine. (Basically a rod with a disk on one end.) The symbol with the 32 is on the rod while the 64 is on the disk. What do they mean? ??? I'm thinking tolerance but it don't make sense to me.

While I'm here... the diameter of the rod (shaft) is called out as:

.2183 DIA REF. - SLIT FIT
.0005 CLEARANCE WITH DET.
#3.00.040-01 & 3.00.020-01

I'm thinking 'SLIT FIT' should be 'SLIP FIT'?

I get the .2183 (and good luck getting .---3).

And sorry to keep demonstrating my ignorance (maybe I shouldn't have had the wine...but it's Friday night)...I'm now confused about 'REF'. Help. ??? (And don't just tell me 'reference'....and at least one of you won't be able to help themselves. ;D)

0.0003 hahahahahahaha...that's rich...hahahahahaha...like I can do that...hahahaha
I'm happy if there's metal left when I'm done.

Thanks.

No. No machining tonight. Long week. Wine was more medicinal than anything else. (Sure. Sure.)


----------



## te_gui

That specifies the desired surface finish in micro inches. That symbol was probably there 40 years ago, but may have slipped away. They make gages that give an example of the various finishes called comparators, basically you drag your fingernail across the standard, then your part and compare them. Kinda like "scratch and sniff" which is another name for the gages. I like to think of a 125 finish as kind of your average milled finish, a 250 is a saw cut and a 16 probably has to be ground to achieve although you can come pretty close with the right combination of insert and hard material. They also make profilometers that drag a stylus across a part and measure all the little peaks and valleys and come up with a number, but doubt you will find too many of them in a hobby shop. I'm sure if you google surface finish, you will find more then you ever wanted to know.

Brian


----------



## rake60

Those are Surface Finish marks.
A 32 RMS finish is very smooth.
A 64 RMS finish is even smoother, like glass...

At work we use an electronic profilometer to measure surface finishes.
One night a few of the young guys decided they should try it on my
bald head to see just how smooth it was. I did sit still for that and 
found out that the top of my head was a 30 RMS Surface Finish.
Then one of them suggested polishing it up with some Scotch Brite 
to see if they could improve the reading. 
I RAN!  
Rof}

Rick


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Brian and Rick.

What does one do to achieve the specified surface finish? Get one of them profilometers or grow my nails out and test and polish? Do hobbyists typically try to achieve that? Or would the hobbyist say 'hm...looks like it needs to be pretty smooth'?

Rick...for the pate you need a very very soft and fine cloth...then find a professional shoe shiner. They'll fix you up and it'll feel great. A little music and you got entertainment. Slappity slap slap. Go for it. Friends will appreciate it. Saves them from hunting up a mirror. Just don't let them breath on it and try to rub the smudges off. Rof}


----------



## te_gui

Hey Rick,

You might wanna check your figures, typically smaller numbers mean smoother. 

Brian


----------



## rake60

An electronic profilometer runs about $1500.00
OR, you can buy an old school finger nail scratch gauge for 
about $9.00 This is a photo of mine.












It can be found here:
http://store.flexbar.com/merchant2/...duct_Code=16007&Category_Code=Surf-Rough-Comp

You are correct Brian.
Smaller numbers are finer finishes.

Rick


----------



## Marinesteam

Rake60

You may want to check your post... The smaller the number the smoother the surface. Did you succeed in improving the finish? 

As far as what a hobbyist can do...

There is a chart in Machinist Handbook called "Surface roughness produced by common production methods" on page 708 of the 25th edition big book. 64-32 Ra is in the range of Turning - Boring though on the smoother end of the range. A good turned surface finish should be within the range of most machinists capabilities.

If you want to be more sure. Most tool suppliers offer a surface finish plaque standard for machining operations (they are made for injection molded finishes as well). A rub with a finger nail on the plaque and across the machined surface will tell you if you're in the ballpark. That and a look with an eye loupe will get you pretty close.


Marinesteam


----------



## te_gui

Yup, theres the "scratch and sniff" gage. To answer the question about achieving the finish in the hobby shop, thats where emery cloth comes in. In the manufacturing world, you never wanted to call out a smoother finish then needed since it generally gets more expensive to create it. In the model world where "bling is king" the rules are different. I have had hydraulic cylinder rods that were too smooth and wouldnt hold an oil film, causing excessive seal wear as well as "stick slip" while moving, so you can over do it.

Brian


----------



## rake60

Don't underestimate the "scratch and sniff" gauge. 
An average piece of paper is .0023" thick.
Hold it flat on a table, close your eyes and run your finger over the 
edge of it. It feels a whole lot thicker than 0023"...

Rick


----------



## scoop

We used "Rubert blocks" for years until hand held surtronic machines were available.There must be thousands of sets of these kicking about in old workshops.They still have a website at...  www.Rubert.co.uk
 Different sets for different machining operations,although I seldom see any indication of required surface finish on model engineering drawings.

 best regards Steve C.


----------



## Tin Falcon

ZP:
I think your question was pretty well covered. I will add enco also sells metal surface comparators both import and Gar an American standby brand. 
I also have one of the plastic ones. For the hobby shop the plastic is likely more than adequate. 

Import $32.95

Gar $70.95
My wife found a Gar on e-bay for me.
Tin


----------



## zeeprogrammer

te_gui  said:
			
		

> I have had hydraulic cylinder rods that were too smooth and wouldnt hold an oil film, causing excessive seal wear as well as "stick slip" while moving, so you can over do it.
> Brian



I wanted to illuminate Brian's sentence a little (quote above)...for newbies like me. It's not obvious that this can happen. (Not that someone like me can get something that smooth yet.)

Thank you all. Very helpful information.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

kf2qd  said:
			
		

> It just wants to be smooth and shiny.



Me too! :big:


----------



## Richard Carlstedt

Having work in the Plastic and steel die industry, I am very familiar with surface finishes.
Here is a simple trick to help you.
When you machine a part, it produces a "grain" with the cutter. With a milling cutter, you get many arcs, laid next to each other. For Lathe,Planner, or grinder work,you get furrows, like a plowed field, or single cut file.


Now, at 32 or better (<32) (smoother) you cannot define "grain with your finger nail.
That's right, just drag your finger nail across the work , in several directions, and see if you feel ANY difference.
Close your eyes, as you may subconsciously affect your feelings.
If you fell anything, like a drag or a groove ,or harder to move in one direction and not the other, it is not a 32 !

You don't need a profilometer to tell you
Remember any direction feels the same !

Rich


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Rich.

It turns out one of our mechanical techs at work is a certified machinist. I don't think he's that experienced...but he's certainly much more than I am. I'm going to take some parts into him and see if he can help too.

My last part (last part is always the best...right?) seems nice in three directions. Hard to tell in the fourth. It was milled brass. So we'll see.

Thanks again.


----------



## Tin Falcon

Z: do not worry too much here. Just make it a smooth fit. If you are balding like Rick just scratch your head then the part if they feel the same you are good to go. If yo are luck enough to have a full head of hair compare it to some other known smooth skin. Like it was said earlier most Model drawings do not have the symbols to confuse you. 
Tin


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> compare it to some other known smooth skin.



Sigh. Nothing smooth about me. Nothing known anyway.

Thanks Tin.


----------



## Tin Falcon

Z:
Well if the wife is out of town and no grand kids available you better invest in a surface comparator!!!!!
Tin


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Z:
> Well if the wife is out of town and no grand kids available you better invest in a surface comparator!!!!!
> Tin



 Rof}


----------



## fdew

What does Ref mean. 
In mechanical design we are not to dimension anything in more then one way. (From one end to the hole, from the hole to the other end, and the total length is bad form. Each dimension carries a tolerance and tells the maker of the part what is important.

BUT some times the stack of dimensions gets so convoluted that it is a kindness to put in a REF dimension. It means You might like to know this but I will not check it and it is not the dimension that controls how it is built.

One example is dimensioning of the start and end of a slanted surface and a "Ref" of 60 deg.

Or, I think you are using CNC so here are the centers of the radius (REF.), but what I really care about is this surface.

Frank


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Thanks Frank. That helped a lot.


----------



## John S

Pet peeve of mine.

{Peeve mode on }

When we were on BS308 for drafting there were oodles of books that laid out all the standards, then we moved onto this Geometric tolerancing mumbo jumbo and the standards were all lock up with British Standards and you have to buy a copy at 90 odd quid read about $140.

Hang on you say I have to do it this way but I have to BUY THE STANDARD to find out ??????

What's changed since BS308 came out in 19 ought plonk? We fought two world wars with everything being made interchangeable from 18 continents so it couldn't have been that bad.

China has it's own standards which are freely available in the effort to create trade, why can't the British Standard Secret Service do the same.

The biggest laugh is though that many software packages licence these standards and build them in, part of the licence deal is they can use them but nor give a menu of what they are, so some Herbert in an office somewhere decides that that symbol looks cool and stuffs it on the drawing.

You get the drawing, read it, decide it can't be made and ring up.

Conversation goes:-

"Excuse me but did you do the drawing of Widget 12345 on 38/13/200 plonk?"

"Yes" [ well at least he's decisive ]

"I'm querying the symbol attached to the face of the circlip groove on part 5678, drawing number 9876"

"Yes" [ not so sure now ]

"Could you tell me what it means? "

"Well it's put on by the program"

"You mean to say it does this automatically? "

"No"

"I though not or all the lines would have this symbol, so you have to choose this symbol? "

"Yes"

"So what made you use this symbol "

"It's a British Standard"

"you sure it's not an ISO standard? "

"Eeerrr I think it's a British standard but they might be the same" [ sound of exhaling breath ]

"But what does it mean? "

"I'll have to look it up in the British Standard"

"Hang on, you have put this on the drawing but you don't know what it means? "

"No I know what it means it's just I need the Standard to explain it correctly" [ sounds of shuffling papers ]

"Well can I save you the trouble and tell you what it means?"

[ Hesitantly ]     "OK "

"Well you have specified that this 2.2mm wide circlip groove 170mm down a 40 mm bore be ground to a surface finish of 8 micro inches"

"                        " [ no answer ]

{End of rant }


JS.


----------



## Maryak

John Stevenson  said:
			
		

> Pet peeve of mine.
> 
> When we were on BS308 for drafting there were oodles of books that laid out all the standards, then we moved onto this Geometric tolerancing mumbo jumbo and the standards were all lock up with British Standards and you have to buy a copy at 90 odd quid read about $140.
> 
> Hang on you say I have to do it this way but I have to BUY THE STANDARD to find out ??????
> 
> What's changed since BS308 came out in 19 ought plonk? We fought two world wars with everything being made interchangeable from 18 continents so it couldn't have been that bad.



Sounds just like Australia and its' standards - :

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## fdew

Rant on

A old boss of mine said if you want the shop to hit it with a file, then write "Hit with file" Great advice.

Working definition of Geometric tolerance, Three people sitting at a table arguing.

I have done a test sending out the same part to 9 vendors dimensioned 3 different ways. mill work, qty 1 and 5

Geometric tolerance with the tolerance set to the bigest of the drawings. (circle of .006)
Conventional point to point dimensions set at +/- .005
Ordinate dimension with the 0-0 at a logical starting point for the mill tolerance +/- .002

Every time the ordinate dimension is cheepest, then the point to point, the geo is last. 
This is true even after I show them all 3 drawings and tell them what I want.

Rant off

Frank


----------



## rake60

So many of those symbols are, well... UNNECESSARY!

Let me bore you with another one of my shop stories.
I was given a print that showed a radial dovetail groove in the face of the part
encircling the bore. The groove depth was to be .257 ±.001 the side angles
of the dovetail were shown as 5° ± 30' The required surface finish was 16RMS.
I took that print to the person who was in charge of the job and told him straight
out, This manual machine is not capable of holding those limits.
He laughed at me! He said that groove was just an O-Ring Groove.
The angles were to retain the O-Ring when it was popped in, and the cover plate 
the O-Ring would be sealing against would never move once tightened up so the 
finishes were not critical. A square radial groove .230 to .260" deep with a 125 RMS
finish would be just fine.... 
:rant: 

In another case, the young man I worked opposite of spent 10 hours trying to make
a tiny boring bar to bore holes in cylindrical parts. The print said the bores were to 
be .628" +.002 -.000" with a 63RMS finish. That morning the man in charge of that 
job came to me fuming MAD! I explained the young man was having a difficult time
holding the tolerance and getting the finish. The he went ballistic! 
*"It's a @%#&*(%@ SPACER that needs to slide over a 5/8" rod!
Drill a 41/64" hole in it and call it done!"*
I politely showed him the print and he was off to Engineering and Drafting to
discuss the problem.
:fan: 

Better stick to those prints! 

Rick


----------

