# Let's talk milling machines



## HennieL (May 31, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

Following up on the most informative discussion "Let's talk drilling", I would really appreciate your comments and input regarding milling machines.

I've been using a little Optimum BF20 mill/drill for the past few years, and have become more and more frustrated with it's lack of capabilities, especially in machining tool steels and such - case in point I recently tried to mill a 12mm slot in a piece of annealed cobalt high-speed steel (HSS-Co), and I could not make cuts deeper than 0.25mm with a four flute end-mill, or with a 12mm ball-nose end-mill, using HSS-Co6 cutters from a reputable supplier. Because the lack of cutting capacity, I ended up with this tool steel work-hardening on me, and I blunted two end mills... So, long story short, I am seriously looking to buy a new milling machine - and that's where I would appreciate some advice from members with more engineering experience than me.

OK, so after a lot of research and price shopping, I must make some serious decisions, amongst others:

what would be the most versatile, smallish footprint machine with a professional size chuck, enough power to do some actual milling, and still small enough to fit into my single garage sized workshop that already has a 1m lathe and a large work table.
In my opinion a dual vertical and horizontal type machine would be much more versatile than just a vertical type mill - do you concur?
I would like to have a machine with an ISO-40 size head - would this be the most versatile, or what would you recommend (nothing larger...)
And the most difficult/controversial question, would a machine with a Bridgeport type vertical head with an additional horizontal receptacle be "better" than a universal type head that can take both horizontal and vertical cutters in the one head?
I am looking for something like the following (both Chinese made, but sourced through a well known and reputable supplier)

The Bridgeport type with horizontal receptical...






Or the Universal Head type...





Both machines would have power feeds in the "X", "Y" and "Z" axes. The Bridgeport type has the advantage of a quill type head that can be used for drilling as well, whilst the universal head type machine does not have a quill, and can only be fed vertically through it's knee, but is more sturdy. Does anyone have first-hand experience with the latter type of machines, and can you please explain how one would accurately adjust the milling depth on it?

Thanks in advance for your comments, advice, and constructive criticism (also on any other type of mill that you might consider to be more appropriate) - and of course realizing that here in South Africa my choice of brands and types are limited to either "made in China"  or "made in India"...

Hennie


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## SmithDoor (May 31, 2021)

Your mill is small.
I have little larger that take a heavy cut. You may look for one like mine .

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Dave 



HennieL said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Following up on the most informative discussion "Let's talk drilling", I would really appreciate your comments and input regarding milling machines.
> 
> ...


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## HennieL (Jun 1, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> Your mill is small.
> I have little larger that take a heavy cut. You may look for one like mine .
> Dave


Thanks Dave, but from your attached data your drill/mill is even smaller than my current BF2, only weighing 75kg vs ~110kg of the BF2...

I'm really looking to upgrade to a "proper" milling machine... not to replace it with something similar to what I currently have.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 1, 2021)

I retired and just do not a larger mill.

A Bridgeport mill is good around if you have the room.
I have own 4 in past even purchase a new one. 


 Dave



HennieL said:


> Thanks Dave, but from your attached data your drill/mill is even smaller than my current BF2, only weighing 75kg vs ~110kg of the BF2...
> 
> I'm really looking to upgrade to a "proper" milling machine... not to replace it with something similar to what I currently have.


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi Hennie, power and precision come from mass, accuracy of manufacture - and heritage. Milling machines that of old have originated from lathes have as main a horizontal spindle, often like Bridgeport expanded with a versatile head with vertical spindle. The milling machines that originate from vertical drills and often come with a round pillar upright are much less sturdy. However these are often easier to operate. As my family in our former colonies has been guest of the Emperor of Japan we still prefer European manufacture over Asian manufacture.
So I myself have a Swiss Aciera F3 mill of about 600 kg. And a new German Wabeco F1210 mill of about 150 kg. The (only?) setback of the Aciera is that is has no quill. This means no feeling in drilling, feeding by moving the whole table up which causes quite some consumption of smaller drills. Therefore the German Wabeco with quill and high revs which is lighter but quite precise.
A friend of mine has a full size original Bridgeport which does boast a quill. And a slotting head.
So my advice is to get the biggest Bridgeport type you can afford, preferably an original. 
Don't forget the revs you need for small hole drilling. I have a separate high rev milling/drilling head that I attach if I need to drill a lot of small holes in the same set-up as I did my milling.
And if there is a choice get the long table.


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## HennieL (Jun 1, 2021)

Thanks for your input, Clockworkcheval.



> The (only?) setback of the Aciera is that is has no quill. This means no feeling in drilling, feeding by moving the whole table up which causes quite some consumption of smaller drills. Therefore the German Wabeco with quill and high revs which is lighter but quite precise.



That is one of my concerns, hence one of my original questions "_Does anyone have first-hand experience with the latter type of machines, and can you please explain how one would accurately adjust the milling depth on it_?" Drilling small holes would not, however, be a large factor in my choosing of a new mill, as I would still keep the small Optimum BF20, and use it exclusively for what it *is* good at - drilling small diameter holes.

From the little that I could find on the internet regarding the Universal Head type mills (similar to that of the old Deckel FP2 mills of the 1970's), I am under the impression that they are sturdier (weight for weight) than the upright Bridgeport type of mills. This would be a major consideration for me, and I really would appreciate any feedback from people who have first-hand experience with this type of mill.



> So my advice is to get the biggest Bridgeport type you can afford, preferably an original.



Unfortunately, getting a US, German or Swiss manufactured machine is out of the question, with the dismal exchange rate of the South African Rand, and my only two options would be to either buy a new Chinese import, or an old second-hand machine. The second-hand machines currently available are either much too large for my purpose, or so dilapidated and broken that it would be a major challenge to repair - and of course in my country the second-hand machine salespeople are even worse than the second-hand car salesmen


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## L98fiero (Jun 1, 2021)

HennieL said:


> That is one of my concerns, hence one of my original questions "_Does anyone have first-hand experience with the latter type of machines, and can you please explain how one would accurately adjust the milling depth on it_?" Drilling small holes would not, however, be a large factor in my choosing of a new mill, as I would still keep the small Optimum BF20, and use it exclusively for what it *is* good at - drilling small diameter holes.


For accurate depth control, lift the knee or you can put a digital scale/DRO on the quill.

From personal experience operating mills from small tabletop machines to horizontal boring mills I'd suggest the combined turret mill with the horizontal spindle would do everything you need unless you are into some fairly large projects and with a little ingenuity and a DRO you can still do the big parts. The horizontal spindle is, in my experience, used primarily for squaring up and heavy slotting because you can run a larger mill in the #40 spindle. The advantage of the combined machine is that you have the versatility of a turret mill with the rigidity of the horizontal, the downside is that #40 tooling is more expensive.

As for which machine, I have a table with only 24" of travel and seldom have issues, none that can't be overcome, and I'm still doing some commercial work. Also it's hard to tell the better quality Chinese mills from the original Bridgeports until you see the price tag and unless you are not into cleaning and lubricating your machines and using them 24/7 on commercial work, I'd think the Chinese machine would last many years without an issue, for hobby work, more than a lifetime.


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## timo_gross (Jun 1, 2021)

I am following this with interest, I think there are two aproaches. Carbide high spindle speeds high feeds, low cutter engagement.
Everything slower, but bigger cuts.
I see a lot of people (not only me) struggling choosing from the different available strategys. More because the machining strategy is not best suited.
Tool manufacturers, often answered the question: How much power and torque do I need for a particular tool and material? "You need enough power ." Because all their customers are running the same standard 10-15 kW BT40 CNC spindles with similar properties. And there is a weird mixture of modern tools and old strategys and outdated rules of thump out there.

Choose spindle speeds according to what you want to do most. A candoitall is not available anymore, too many different approaches and materials available. I feel it is easier to run a tool too slow than too fast.

Greetings Timo

p.s. tooling cost is very much dependent on area. BT40 and NT40 are used most around here, so it is easy to get and prices are often cheaper than R8. (More modern boring systems or face milling cutters, etc. are usually not available in non Standard sizes (R8 = non standard size )


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## Richard Hed (Jun 1, 2021)

HennieL said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Following up on the most informative discussion "Let's talk drilling", I would really appreciate your comments and input regarding milling machines.
> 
> ...


The mill that does not have a quill, IMNSHO, is a bad choice for an amateur, I would thimpfk that belongs in a large shop.  I too am looking at a mill that has both vertical and horizontal capabililties.  I'm thimpfking the Grizzly 







*Grizzly G0757 - 9" x 39" 2 HP Horizontal/Vertical Mill*
might be worth it.


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## L98fiero (Jun 1, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> The mill that does not have a quill, IMNSHO, is a bad choice for an amateur, I would thimpfk that belongs in a large shop.  I too am looking at a mill that has both vertical and horizontal capabililties.  I'm thimpfking the Grizzly
> *Grizzly G0757 - 9" x 39" 2 HP Horizontal/Vertical Mill*ght be worth it.


I don't think that's the machine Henni is talking about, the picture is of a Knuth VHF 1.1 with #40 taper and 5" of quill travel, 2 hp on the vertical and 3 hp on the horizontal and weights 2200 pounds. It would do pretty much anything most home shops I know of would need done. I'd buy one if I didn't have a line on a mint condition Excello 602 within driving distance and if it was within my(wife's) budget.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 1, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> I don't think that's the machine Henni is talking about, the picture is of a Knuth VHF 1.1 with #40 taper and 5" of quill travel, 2 hp on the vertical and 3 hp on the horizontal and weights 2200 pounds. It would do pretty much anything most home shops I know of would need done. I'd buy one if I didn't have a line on a mint condition Excello 602 within driving distance and if it was within my(wife's) budget.


No no, Hennie lives in S. Africa which he has told us before does not have Grizzly but similar things are probably available.  I's just telling him about this product and recommending AGAINST that machine with no quill.  That would be a big mistake.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 1, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> I am following this with interest, I think there are two aproaches. Carbide high spindle speeds high feeds, low cutter engagement.
> Everything slower, but bigger cuts.
> I see a lot of people (not only me) struggling choosing from the different available strategys. More because the machining strategy is not best suited.
> Tool manufacturers, often answered the question: How much power and torque do I need for a particular tool and material? "You need enough power ." Because all their customers are running the same standard 10-15 kW BT40 CNC spindles with similar properties. And there is a weird mixture of modern tools and old strategys and outdated rules of thump out there.
> ...


Where do you live that an R8 is nonstandard?


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## SmithDoor (Jun 1, 2021)

R8 is only a standard for small mills. 
When order my old Bridge Port I order with quick change it did not come with R8. 
Most of mills I own had mt40 or mt50. 
The mill that have now has a morse tapper 2. 
There is no real standard 




Richard Hed said:


> Where do you live that an R8 is nonstandard?


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## Zeb (Jun 1, 2021)

Yeh, a decent Bridgeport is tough to find even here for an affordable price. One of the issues with SA is that sometimes they ship stuff there that had quality issues. I would check some of the mills coming out of Taiwan, as they look fairly decent.


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## timo_gross (Jun 2, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> Where do you live that an R8 is nonstandard?


You will not find many R8 machines in Europe, China, Japan, Russia basically everywhere outside the US I guess.
I am in Taiwan, machines with R8 are rare and hard to sell if you want to get rid of one. R8 machines are mostly produced in China for US (Hobby) market and found their way to other places outside the US. 


Greetings Timo


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## HennieL (Jun 2, 2021)

Thanks for everyone's input so far - keep it up 



Richard Hed said:


> I's just telling him about this product and recommending AGAINST that machine with no quill.  That would be a big mistake.



Richard (and everyone else...): I'm certainly not being argumentative about this advice as I don't have enough knowledge or experience with milling, but please elaborate on why you're making this recommendation (I like to understand "why" with everything I do - I suppose that I never outgrew that stage of my childhood...)

Why would a machine that's used in industry not be suitable for hobby use (apart from cost, that is...) - especially if it is more sturdy for the same smallish footprint, and keeping in mind that I will keep my small mill/drill to use as an accurate drill (which was the main reason that I bought it in the first place)?

Why daddy, why???


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## aarggh (Jun 2, 2021)

I have an Optimum BF16 and love it, it's an absolutely superb machine for light aluminium machining, fantastic value. For bigger stuff I have a 3hp geared head knee mill. I spent ages looking at various smaller models, and gradually going up in size until I ended up with a model pretty much identical to the pic, except mine doesn't have the horizontal borer. As others say the bigger and more mass you can get in a mill the better. Mine takes NT40 which is great as you can get really decent stuff not too expensive. Generally the Z axis isn't powered on these as you usually use the quill to fine adjust and then lock to machine.

A quill as others have pointed out really is a necessity if you want to have more control over the machining you do, I couldn't imagine not having a quill, it would make simple things much more tedious.

I love my mill but I do find if I'm using the shell mill cutter assembly and I'm really hogging steel, the ram does actually vibrate out of position forward/back slightly, it's quite hard to completely stop that, so I just don't overdo it.

The one thing I do really regret though, is I went for a geared head thinking it would be far superior than a belt drive (thinking crappy drill press experience), but the noise it makes is pretty loud at times, so I have to be careful not to upset the neighbours.  If I had my choice I would go for a King Rich V2000 being a superb machine for a home shop or serious hobbyist, but if not that, then one with a variable belt drive like the Bridgeports and King Rich's have, I think that would be the bees knee's, and much better than geared head.

I will say there's something really nice about turning big pieces of steel into little red hot swarf on the mill, very good for the soul I reckon! ;-)


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## Richard Hed (Jun 2, 2021)

HennieL said:


> Thanks for everyone's input so far - keep it up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, *I never ever thot you were being argumentative, son (because I say so, son, because I say so).  OK, so the mill in my experience has two methods of machining.  They are both important in their own way.  One method is to plane mill in which i am also grouping side, groove and top milling techniques.  The other way is to use the mill as one would use a drill press, that is to plunge the quill into the work.  If you have a quill, you can quickly and easily set the depth to do any of your "plane Millings" but if you only have a knee, I believe this would not be either quick or easy to set depths.  For production work, that would most likely be just fine.  But for Amateur, especially, one or two offs, that would be a pain in the prostate.  *If you are getting a mill with a motor raised and lowered knee, that would be helpful but I don't know how accurate or easy to set as I have never run any thing like that.  With a crank (hand crank) to raise and lower it, it would be terrible IMNSHO.  I hope that helps


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## HennieL (Jun 2, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> If you are getting a mill with a motor raised and lowered knee, that would be helpful but I don't know how accurate or easy to set as I have never run any thing like that.  With a crank (hand crank) to raise and lower it, it would be terrible IMNSHO.  I hope that helps



Thanks Richard - that helps a lot, and I concur with the points you made. This was one of my main concerns, and I raised the question in my very first post: 





> ...the universal head type machine does not have a quill, and can only be fed vertically through it's knee, but is more sturdy. Does anyone have first-hand experience with the latter type of machines, and can you please explain how one would accurately adjust the milling depth on it?


The Universal Head machine that I'm looking at does have a power feed in the "Z" axis (through the knee), but I could not find anything on a "fine adjust" knob or mechanism in the literature, hence my question.

I would really appreciate some feedback from someone that has experience with this type of machine, regarding this question... can one electronically adjust the vertical height to an accuracy of 1.0mm, 0.1mm, or 0.01mm? I note that the machine does have a 3-axes DRO, and would assume that the resolution would be something like 0.02mm or 0.05mm, but cannot see how an electrical motor and gears would be able to adjust to this accuracy given the momentum (lag) in any electro-mechanical device such as this.



aarggh said:


> The one thing I do really regret though, is I went for a geared head thinking it would be far superior than a belt drive (thinking crappy drill press experience), but the noise it makes is pretty loud at times, so I have to be careful not to upset the neighbours.



Thanks for this, aarggh - something that I have not considered, and will have to give some thought to. I'm not too concerned about disturbing the neighbours (they are quite far away, and my double brick wall garage/workshop will dampen the sound quite well), but I am concerned about my own ears (given that I am already partly deaf due to nearly 60 years of shooting  )


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## Drawfiler (Jun 2, 2021)

It is difficult to make a recommendation without knowing your budget, the type of work you plan to do and your ability.
for my pennies worth, I would go for plenty of iron, a heavier machine will will hold its accuracy better, quill drilling is nice but a stand alone drill is much better, a Bridgeport type is tall and may not fit easily in your workshop.
I would look for a horizontal machine with detachable vertical head, preferably with power feeds, this brings us to the Aciera, Deckel, Schaublin, Alexander types. Don’t be too worried by age, they are all rebuildable, my Deckel FP1 was made in 1937 and still mills to .001” which does me.
good hunting


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## stof (Jun 2, 2021)

I dont normally post . ,but live in s.a. and a avid reader of most of the post. I especially enjoy your post Hennie as they have been very informative and relevant as we seem to share very similar  interests. I went through exactly the same process as you 2 years ago.  So my decision was absolutely a quill. Expense was an issue So what machine. Started to look at 2nd hand bridgeport and felt i would never get one in good order. Ended up with with on for 2000$. I needed to spend 600$ more on complete rebuild, done by myself. this was  tough but completely doable. Extremely happy now with it. I also learnt a huge amount in the process and have a mill which is not absolute perfect due to age but totally happy with ability and quality.You need to be patient and follow all leads and you can and will find a bridgeport in good enough shape. I do have some contacts which I can share with If you like.


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## timo_gross (Jun 2, 2021)

Drawfiler said:


> Deckel FP1 was made in 1937 and still mills to .001” which does me.


Is the machine a political refugy? When was it moved to UK? (just curious). What tool taper does it have?

Question to the quill discussion: If there is a horizontal drive can this be used to put a drill chuck into it? Then the y-axis can be used for drilling?
Maybe a problem with the travel, but it would avoid moving the knee up and down for peck drilling.
I saw some larger Taiwanese machine, it had a power feed on the quill and a retrofit tapping function on the quill as well.
Is tapping and quill feed something that is commonly available?

 Greetings Timo


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## HennieL (Jun 2, 2021)

stof said:


> I do have some contacts which I can share with If you like.



Thanks for your post, Stof. PM sent regarding your offer to share contacts - much appreciated.


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## Jules (Jun 2, 2021)

Hi Hennie, I have a Bridgeport clone with a variable speed head from 65-4500 rpm. 
Whilst it is not as rigid as the solid head vertical machine you show it is worth considering a compromise. 
It is very very versatile. You can swing the head left or right, slide it in or out on the ram, tilt it for and aft and rotate it. 
You do had a quill and with 4500 rpm it will drill quite small holes no problem. 
You don’t have to re-setup in another machine. The quill also has a powered down feed (or up ) which can give nice results when boring. 
I guess it depends how often you need to remove large amounts of tough material. 
I certainly wouldn’t swap it for a less versatile machine.


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## clockworkcheval (Jun 2, 2021)

In traditional machinetools the slides need a minimum of play in order to move at all. When you put load on the table first the play will be squeezed out, then the surface roughness will be pressed in and finally the form tolerances will adapt to each other. All this results in a lot of springiness under light load, even with precision machines. Under heavier load they are OK. A good but expensive solution is to use pre-loaded harmonica gibs for the ways. A cheaper and quite effective solution for existing machines is the use of thin industrial PTFE tape on the gibs. It will not only allow light pre-loading but it will also reduce slip-stick.


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## L98fiero (Jun 2, 2021)

HennieL said:


> I would really appreciate some feedback from someone that has experience with this type of machine, regarding this question... can one electronically adjust the vertical height to an accuracy of 1.0mm, 0.1mm, or 0.01mm? I note that the machine does have a 3-axes DRO, and would assume that the resolution would be something like 0.02mm or 0.05mm, but cannot see how an electrical motor and gears would be able to adjust to this accuracy given the momentum (lag) in any electro-mechanical device such as this.


The machine you showed the picture of does have a hand crank for fine adjustment of the table height, probably graduated in 0.001" increments or possibly 0.02mm, not sure about the metric as I've not run a metric mill but there will in any case be a fine manual adjustment. Once again, that machine will be capable of nearly everything a Bridgeport is capable of but also hogging off material with 3 hp on the horizontal spindle, the _only_ downside I see is that it has only 2000 rpm on the vertical spindle but you say you're keeping the small mill so it's not that much of an issue. Personally, if all I was doing was hobby work I'd get a lighter, faster machine but it really depends on what you're planning on doing with it.
The universal machine would be my last choice simply because drilling with small drills would be a pain and I don't know of a way to put a power drawbar on the head, a machine with a sensitive/powered quill just makes things much easier.


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## HennieL (Jun 2, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> The machine you showed the picture of does have a hand crank for fine adjustment of the table height, probably graduated in 0.001" increments or possibly 0.02mm, not sure about the metric as I've not run a metric mill but there will in any case be a fine manual adjustment. Once again, that machine will be capable of nearly everything a Bridgeport is capable of but also hogging off material with 3 hp on the horizontal spindle, the _only_ downside I see is that it has only 2000 rpm on the vertical spindle but you say you're keeping the small mill so it's not that much of an issue. Personally, if all I was doing was hobby work I'd get a lighter, faster machine but it really depends on what you're planning on doing with it.
> The universal machine would be my last choice simply because drilling with small drills would be a pain and I don't know of a way to put a power drawbar on the head, a machine with a sensitive/powered quill just makes things much easier.



Thanks for this - given that the Bridgeport type of machine (with the horizontal spindle) is substantially cheaper than the universal head machine also pictured in my first post, and everyone's input that it would be more suitable to hobby-type work, this settles that debate for me.

Next problem - I've looked at two models of the vertical "Bridgeport type" mills from Knuth - the VHF1.1 pictured in my first post, and their model MF1P:

The VHF1.1 has an ISO-40 spindle, a horizontal spindle, and a maximum vertical spindle speed of only 1660 RPM.
The MF1 has an ISO-30 vertical spindle (and no horizontal spindle), and a vertical spindle speed of 4500 RPM
Now, given that one of my primary reasons for wanting to upgrade is to allow me to use carbide cutters for working on some difficult to machine steels, and knowing that these cutters must be operated at speed, what are your thoughts regarding the suitability and best "bang for the buck" of these two machines?

Man, it's @#$%^ hard to make the right choice if you don't know enough


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## L98fiero (Jun 2, 2021)

HennieL said:


> Thanks for this - given that the Bridgeport type of machine (with the horizontal spindle) is substantially cheaper than the universal head machine also pictured in my first post, and everyone's input that it would be more suitable to hobby-type work, this settles that debate for me.
> 
> Next problem - I've looked at two models of the vertical "Bridgeport type" mills from Knuth - the VHF1.1 pictured in my first post, and their model MF1P:
> 
> ...


No experience with the ISO 30 taper but my understanding is that it's more rigid than R8, there are many tool holders available and it looks like a power drawbar is, if not standard, available, at 3 hp it will still do some serious milling. That machine looks pretty much in line with the capabilities of a Bridgeport because the head looks like a copy and as with all the other copies parts are probably interchangeable.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 2, 2021)

If want to remove a lot metal fast a Horizontal Mill using the MT50 /ISO 50 taper .

Most of my production was on a #2 Horizontal mill. The Bridgeport just could not do job, just different in mill holders. The Bridgeport is more of Jig borer and drill than mill.

Dave



L98fiero said:


> No experience with the ISO 30 taper but my understanding is that it's more rigid than R8, there are many tool holders available and it looks like a power drawbar is, if not standard, available, at 3 hp it will still do some serious milling. That machine looks pretty much in line with the capabilities of a Bridgeport because the head looks like a copy and as with all the other copies parts are probably interchangeable.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 2, 2021)

I am working on a Horizontal mill Attachment for my small.
It reduces the speed too.





						Horizontal Mill Attachmen
					

Here is latest project a Horizons mill attachment for my mill.  It has a 2 to 1 reduction for heavier cuts.  Dave




					www.homemodelenginemachinist.com
				




Dave



L98fiero said:


> No experience with the ISO 30 taper but my understanding is that it's more rigid than R8, there are many tool holders available and it looks like a power drawbar is, if not standard, available, at 3 hp it will still do some serious milling. That machine looks pretty much in line with the capabilities of a Bridgeport because the head looks like a copy and as with all the other copies parts are probably interchangeable.


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## timo_gross (Jun 2, 2021)

I would agree that the BT30, same taper as ISO30 or NT30 is more rigid than R8. 
BT40 is quite a bit larger. 
Carbide cutters do not *need *to run at higher speeds, they are *allowed to*. Usually no harm done when running them "too" slow. You just cannot overdo it with chip load. Then the machine stalls, goes into error (better control) or brakes the cutter (better machine/small enough cutter) 
A 6 mm (1/4 inch) endmill as per below table is sugested to run at 1400 rpm or 3000 rpm.
The table is for a mid level 4-flute carbide endmill, not particular special or expensive. I copied it from the tool catalogue. 

High speed is only needed for the tiny ones. If the chip load is not maintained very accurate a 1.5 mm endmill breaks if you look angry at it ... i







It feels machine power is sometimes a poor indicator for what is going on in certain situations. For example a lot of CNC machines do not have a gear box. They need a massive big motor to deliver at least some torque at lower rpm. If slow cutting e.g. with a slitting saw or tapping with bigger taps is done. A much smaller motor with gear box can do the job as well.
A 0.75 hp gear motor can have more torque than a 2hp motor without reduction at lower speed.
 I would think if you are into small stuff I would not get a mill with less than 4000 rpm. 
At higher spindle rpm balanced tools are a good idea, not sure when to consider this.

Some manufacturers give you the motor power for 5 min overload, some give you the number for 15 min load, some use the number for 100% continuous running load. Then the same motor can come with three numbers in different advertisements.

Greetings Timo


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## roncohudd (Jun 2, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> Hi Hennie, power and precision come from mass, accuracy of manufacture - and heritage. Milling machines that of old have originated from lathes have as main a horizontal spindle, often like Bridgeport expanded with a versatile head with vertical spindle. The milling machines that originate from vertical drills and often come with a round pillar upright are much less sturdy. However these are often easier to operate. As my family in our former colonies has been guest of the Emperor of Japan we still prefer European manufacture over Asian manufacture.
> So I myself have a Swiss Aciera F3 mill of about 600 kg. And a new German Wabeco F1210 mill of about 150 kg. The (only?) setback of the Aciera is that is has no quill. This means no feeling in drilling, feeding by moving the whole table up which causes quite some consumption of smaller drills. Therefore the German Wabeco with quill and high revs which is lighter but quite precise.
> A friend of mine has a full size original Bridgeport which does boast a quill. And a slotting head.
> So my advice is to get the biggest Bridgeport type you can afford, preferably an original.
> ...


I just sold a Bridgeport style milling machine. 1980 JAPANESE MODEL. Very good machine. Much better than the Bridgeport that I still have.


Richard Hed said:


> The mill that does not have a quill, IMNSHO, is a bad choice for an amateur, I would thimpfk that belongs in a large shop.  I too am looking at a mill that has both vertical and horizontal capabililties.  I'm thimpfking the Grizzly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good machine. My Grizzly 13x 42 lathe has been great. Ran hard when I was in the business.


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## HennieL (Jun 2, 2021)

Thanks everyone for your input so far - much appreciated.

I'm still waiting for a couple of quotes, but at this stage I think that I will be looking very seriously at the Knuth VHF1.1 with the ISO 40 taper.


timo_gross said:


> Some manufacturers give you the motor power for 5 min overload, some give you the number for 15 min load, some use the number for 100% continuous running load. Then the same motor can come with three numbers in different advertisements.


Yes Timo, that's pretty standard - same as with music amplifiers, most cheaper manufacturers quote PMPO (peak music power output), whilst the top of the range guys quote RMS (root mean square) power to those discerning buyers that know better... Kids buy the 1000W PMPO units and think they're just great, but all they can do is make noise, not music


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## larryg (Jun 2, 2021)

HennieL said:


> I would really appreciate some feedback from someone that has experience with this type of machine, regarding this question... can one electronically adjust the vertical height to an accuracy of 1.0mm, 0.1mm, or 0.01mm? I note that the machine does have a 3-axes DRO, and would assume that the resolution would be something like 0.02mm or 0.05mm, but cannot see how an electrical motor and gears would be able to adjust to this accuracy given the momentum (lag) in any electro-mechanical device such as this.



On The machine without the quill you do not rely on the mechanical/electronic feed to get accuracy.  You use the hand crank to get the precision you need.  At least that is how I do it on my horizontal mill with the universal head.  All the feeds on my machine are gear driven and will drive to a mechanical limit.  I have not tested the repeatability of the mechanical limit.

Now if the machine your looking at has a stepper motor on the z axis you MAY have the ability to send it to a set point.

lg
no neat sig line


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## ytrose2 (Jun 2, 2021)

Hennie, I am a South African now living in NZ. I have a mill which I bought in SA with a universal head (tilt and nod), but is too small for my workshop needs and difficult to get properly vertical on round columns. I have looked locally for a replacement, but we only seem to be able to get Asian machines here - very little from Europe. The message here is that Taiwanese stuff is better quality than Chinese. 
Trying to get good tooling is difficult here in NZ. There is little demand. In SA (in the 90's) tooling was reasonably easy to get, much of it locally manufactured. Probably a spin-off from the arms industry. I see some SA tools here now (Gedore, FEW, etc.) and try support it.


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## L98fiero (Jun 3, 2021)

ytrose2 said:


> I have looked locally for a replacement, but we only seem to be able to get Asian machines here - very little from Europe. The message here is that Taiwanese stuff is better quality than Chinese.


I can't speak for availability but the Chinese machines are about where the Taiwanese machines were in the 80s or early 90s, some are good but you have to be careful and research what other users think. In the mid-90s I bought several Bridgeport clones, they were quite solid accurate machines with chromed ways, the last time I saw them 7 or 8 years ago they were still doing good work so it kind of depends on which machine you buy. Back then Taiwan was producing some junk as well, to some extent, you get what you pay for, the better Chinese machines will cost more.
Having said that, about 10 years ago I bought a flat bed CNC lathe, it was the same machine as one of the Clausing machines, produced in the same factory but without the name, it was a disaster, pretty much anything that could go wrong did. _My understanding_ was that the difference being that Clausing had an on site inspector at the factory, I _think _the machine I got was one that didn't pass the Clausing inspector or maybe _any_ inspector but that's just an opinion from a pretty disappointed customer. The bad part was that I bought it through a well known industrial machine tool dealer so even that is no guarantee.


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## willray (Jun 3, 2021)

HennieL said:


> I would really appreciate some feedback from someone that has experience with this type of machine, regarding this question... can one electronically adjust the vertical height to an accuracy of 1.0mm, 0.1mm, or 0.01mm?



I started life with an Ex-Cell-O variable-speed-head turret mill (Bridgeport style, only a bit chunkier), and have since acquired a few "real" mills, including a ram-type universal (Van Norman).  I find that I use the Ex-Cell-O less and less for milling, and more and more, as a glorified drill press.

Precise adjustments in height on the (non-quill) universal are made with the knee, either with the crank, or under power, and (without a DRO) are as precise as you care to read the dial.  Set the feed to 0.8 inches per minute, and stopping on any given target thousandth is not much of a problem.

Feeding into a setting on an indicator can be annoying, as you've got to be standing where you can manipulate the crank or the controls, and that's not always where you can read the indicator accurately.  Conditional on being able to see the indicator, yes, at least with my mill, I can vertical-feed with the crank, to the accuracy I can read on the indicator.

If you think about it, this isn't terribly surprising.  Vertical feed on the crank is, if I recall correctly .200 or .250 inches (been staring at Monarch dials too much recently).  Call it .250, so about 6mm, in 360 degrees. With a crank handle that's some 12+ inches (300mm) in radius, so about 2 inches circumferential travel per 10 degrees.  That's roughly 7 thou vertical feed per 2 inches of travel at the crank handle, or .17mm vertical feed per 5 cm travel at the handle.  That's plenty of resolution to hit as much precision on the feed, as the rest of the mill and setup is likely capable of.

Power feeds on all three axes are glorious, especially with rapids for positioning and return passes.  I find myself going to the machine that has them, way more often than going to the machine with the quill.  Setups on the Ex-Cell-O may be a bit faster with the ability to fine-adjust the quill extension to perfectly dial in a depth, but once a part is fixtured and the mill zeroed (I don't have a DRO, just dials and indicators) the ability to just set the travel stops, slap the table drive into feed, and let the machine worry about the cut, really becomes addicting.

That being said, and this brands me a rank amateur, I still don't feel comfortable plunge-cutting with the power fed knee.  I am much more comfortable if I can "feel" the cut on a plunge, so I reflexively go to the Ex-Cell-O and its quill, if I've got to push a cut vertically.  Academically, I know I can just look up the recommended inches-per-revolution for the cutter, set the speed and feed appropriately and let the vertical drive handle the cut better than I can "feel" it, but there is something that still just freaks me out about doing that. 

Still, if I could only have one, the Van Norman would stay and the Ex-Cell-O would go.  I could get over my trepidation about plunging with knee, and while setups might be a shade slower, I can produce better, more consistent work with the Van Norman than with the Ex-Cell-O.

Will


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## awake (Jun 3, 2021)

So much already covered above, but I wonder if it is helpful to state the obvious: any mill is a tradeoff between flexibility and rigidity. Yeah, that sounds like a bad joke, but it isn't. The more you want one mill to be able to do - sensitive drilling, angled milling, high speed milling, etc. - the more compromises you have to make. The genius of the Bridgeport design is that it is eminently flexible - tilt, nod, quill and knee, ram in or out, ability to add various attachments for right angle, rotary, etc. The pain and frustration of the Bridgeport design ... is that it is eminently flexible, as in, not nearly as rigid. So if you want or need the flexibility, you pay for it by taking reduced cuts. If you want to hog off metal, you need rigidity, and you pay for it by not having as much versatility.

I would dare say that with clever setups and care, you can accomplish many things that might be outside the normal envelope of either a more rigid machine or a more versatile machine - it just may take more time and care to accomplish. And keep in mind that all things are relative - a BP, which some machinists describe as being as rigid as a wet noodle (because their needs are for hogging off lots of metal quickly), is at least one if not several orders of magnitude more rigid than the "Big Red" mill drill that I started with. I did a lot of good work on the Big Red, including some things that apparently I wasn't supposed to be able to do (!), and I still have the Big Red ... but I haven't used it at all since I got a BP. The only advantage the Big Red has over the BP is ability to fit into a smaller space and to be moved with relative ease - which may be the deciding factors for many of us, and may outweigh (bad pun intended) the far greater rigidity and flexibility of the BP. It's all relative ...


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## methuselah1 (Jun 3, 2021)

Bridgeports are whippy. Very versatile, but not as rigid as a Deckel. The FP series was originated in 1917, then copied by at least seven other companies! The are plenty of this pattern out there, and by the time you have the vertical, and high speed vertical heads, and a slotting attachment, you're set for life. My one had an MT4 collet adaptor in the vertical head, the high speed head used U2 collets, I forget what the horizontal taper was. My dividing head was by Thiel, and used collets with a 40 INT. adaptor. That seems to have become the industry standard for this size of machine. 50 INT. is unusual now, 30 INT. is still quite easy to pick up in the U.K.

A good gauge of machine quality is when the manual states you have to warm the quill up for half an hour before you start work. So it was with my Alexander! Slip platforms are another give-away.

I could have wept when I had to sell the Alex, shucks, I think I DID weep; but my subsequent BP copy is adequate if I don't want to hoof it. It just isn't in the same class.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 3, 2021)

methuselah1 said:


> Bridgeports are whippy. Very versatile, but not as rigid as a Deckel. The FP series was originated in 1917, then copied by at least seven other companies! The are plenty of this pattern out there, and by the time you have the vertical, and high speed vertical heads, and a slotting attachment, you're set for life. My one had an MT4 collet adaptor in the vertical head, the high speed head used U2 collets, I forget what the horizontal taper was. My dividing head was by Thiel, and used collets with a 40 INT. adaptor. That seems to have become the industry standard for this size of machine. 50 INT. is unusual now, 30 INT. is still quite easy to pick up in the U.K.
> 
> A good gauge of machine quality is when the manual states you have to warm the quill up for half an hour before you start work. So it was with my Alexander! Slip platforms are another give-away.
> 
> I could have wept when I had to sell the Alex, shucks, I think I DID weep; but my subsequent BP copy is adequate if I don't want to hoof it. It just isn't in the same class.


Most of us on this forum are not doing this work for customers (some are) but rather for amateur reasons, building models.  So BP style mills are better for us.  I certainly would not want the type of herky machines you are talking about in my small shop--had I lots of room and lots of moolah, I would want several types of machines, but I am just making steam engine models and maybe a bit of designing in a garage shop.


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## willray (Jun 3, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> . I certainly would not want the type of herky machines you are talking about in my small shop



I'm pretty sure the Deckel FP1 and FP2 make the typical bridgeport look positively huge, while easily eating the bridgeport's lunch on rigidity and ultimate flexibility.  I would _love_ to have an FP2 in the shop.


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## roncohudd (Jun 4, 2021)

willray said:


> I'm pretty sure the Deckel FP1 and FP2 make the typical bridgeport look positively huge, while easily eating the bridgeport's lunch on rigidity and ultimate flexibility.  I would _love_ to have an FP2 in the shop.


I have a Grizzly 13 x 42 lathe and it's been very good 
I ran production on it for 10 years. Now it's for my play time.


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## Henry K (Jun 4, 2021)

One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control.  My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem.  What electronic devices last that long?


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## roncohudd (Jun 4, 2021)

Henry K said:


> One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control.  My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem.  What electronic devices last that long?


I fully agree with you Henry. My Bridgeport and the Japanese built Honeoye (which was much better than the Bridgeport) are both open belt driven. I worked in a shop with the variable speeds and it cost a small fortune to repair those.


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## Vietti (Jun 4, 2021)

I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.

I see two or three advantages to the Bridgeport.  Lots of accessories are available, they are common and easily found on the used market.  One big advantage over the smaller machines is the distance between the quill and the table.  When I use the mill to bore a tall cylinder casting bolted to a large angle plate the boring bar is only a few inches above the lowest table position.

I added an aftermarket power unit to my Z axis table and wouldn't be without it.  I put the third axis of the DRO on the Z axis table and a small, inexpensive DRO unit on the quill, together they make life much easier.  Considered an impact tool changer but decided it wasn't high enough on my priority list even though they can be had very reasonably.


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## roncohudd (Jun 4, 2021)

Vietti said:


> I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.
> 
> I see two or three advantages to the Bridgeport.  Lots of accessories are available, they are common and easily found on the used market.  One big advantage over the smaller machines is the distance between the quill and the table.  When I use the mill to bore a tall cylinder casting bolted to a large angle plate the boring bar is only a few inches above the lowest table position.
> 
> I added an aftermarket power unit to my Z axis table and wouldn't be without it.  I put the third axis of the DRO on the Z axis table and a small, inexpensive DRO unit on the quill, together they make life much easier.  Considered an impact tool changer but decided it wasn't high enough on my priority list even though they can be had very reasonably.


I've been machining with Bridgeports and lookalikes for about 40 years. Seldom ever used a DRO. Always used the numbers. Not saying anything against DRO, but seldom had it available.


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## mikelkie (Jun 4, 2021)

Hi Hennie, in RSA there are many Bridgeport mills to be had at very reasonable prices.
I recently sold one with 2 axis feed and Newall dro. I like heavy machines for myself for sturdiness and could not work on a flimsy machine from the east, except Japanese.  I advise everyone to save a little more an buy a good used British, US or European machine


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## willray (Jun 4, 2021)

Vietti said:


> I find my Bridgeport very adequate for model engineering and don't find it "whippy or whimpy", but maybe only because I've not experienced anything better.



"Better" is in the eye of the beholder.  My Proto & Wright maintenance tool set is almost infinitely "better" than my Leatherman if one just compares features, but which one is in my pocket when the car-park gate won't open at 2:00AM, and security isn't answering the phone?

Bridgeports/clones are multitools, and they're "better" on that axis than most other designs (Arguably, a Deckel FP2 puts more multitool capability in a smaller envelope than a bridgeport, as it doesn't waste the base casting as nothing more than a container for air), but I wouldn't say that other mill designs are ultimately "better" - different, definitely, but "better" needs to be thought about feature by feature and use by use.

That being said, yes, the reason you don't find the Bridgeport whippy or whimpy, is because you haven't used something more rigid with more power.  I didn't think my Ex-Cell-O was whippy or whimpy before I ran the Van Norman either (and my Van Norman is a baby compared to bigger mills).  There really is no meaningful comparison.  It's a lot like if all you've ever used is a good adjustable ("crescent") wrench, and have never met a 6-point box-end.  With the Ex-Cell-O, I have never felt "underpowered", or "flexible", but like with a crescent wrench there's always a "if I overdo this, something's going to give" feeling of needing to be sensitive to the machine's limitations.  To be sure, the Van Norman has limitations, but they're so far removed from the Ex-Cell-O's that it feels invincible - like with the box end, if I overdo it, there's no question - I'm going to rip the head off the nut, or break the work, and the tool isn't even going to notice.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 4, 2021)

How is hunt going finding the right mill for your line of work

Dave  



HennieL said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Following up on the most informative discussion "Let's talk drilling", I would really appreciate your comments and input regarding milling machines.
> 
> ...


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## timo_gross (Jun 5, 2021)

Henry K said:


> One thing I would like to suggest is to NOT get one with an electronic speed control. If the control goes out after about 5 years, maybe less, you could have a big problem - no repair parts. Milling machine purchases for hobbyists should last a long time. I have mine, a Rong Fu 25, for about 30 years now and it still works great with belt changes for speed control.  My nearly 80 year old Logan lathe has the same story. I want to pass these machines down to my grandchildren and that should be no problem.  What electronic devices last that long?



I agree and disagree, I think electronic can be very helpful I have it on "all" milling machines. Documentation of the system is what makes it vulnerable. If you know how to fix the system, without fixing the damaged electronic it will be fine.

But..... I damaged one BLDC driver a while ago, (my own fault) the motor is bricked. Because the machine maker does not exist anymore and I could not find any replacement drive to power that particular motor, the search became frustrating and a huge time waste. Mainly because there was no proper information on the motor. (I gave up)
It is not generally electronic speed control that is evil, evil are customized and undocumented parts that cannot be replaced.
I replaced the complete motor with a 3-phase motor and mitsubishi inverter (both 2nd hand). The milling machine has no change gears and relies on electronic control for different speeds.
If an ordinary 3-phase inverter quits service you can usually just replace it with lots of other brands. I like the 2nd hand mitsubishi, because it has a proper instruction and it can be replaced. Something wrong - get another 2nd hand, quick fix.  
If you go for exotic electronic, be prepared to throw it away if some problem is there, just replace it. I think essential is documentation.

Do I break less drills, if I run them with good speeds, because it is easy to adjust? I do not know, but it is possible. It requires to save 120 USD damaged tools, before I can buy another 2nd hand inverter.

Greetings Timo


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## SmithDoor (Jun 5, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> I agree and disagree, I think electronic can be very helpful I have it on "all" milling machines. Documentation of the system is what makes it vulnerable. If you know how to fix the system, without fixing the damaged electronic it will be fine.
> 
> But..... I damaged one BLDC driver a while ago, (my own fault) the motor is bricked. Because the machine maker does not exist anymore and I could not find any replacement drive to power that particular motor, the search became frustrating and a huge time waste. Mainly because there was no proper information on the motor. (I gave up)
> It is not generally electronic speed control that is evil, evil are customized and undocumented parts that cannot be replaced.
> ...


Electronics is great till stops work. 

Dave


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## Baltic (Jun 6, 2021)

Hello Hennie, First time post on this is forum, I have recently purchased a similar mill to your OP, The Australian version, used it a bit now, and I am happy with my purchase, Var speed drive 2.2kw motor, 20-2000rpm, X,Y,Z increments, are .01mm and the Quill I think is .02mm? One thing that annoys me a bit is the VFD, it is noisey, quite a high pitch.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 7, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> I would agree that the BT30, same taper as ISO30 or NT30 is more rigid than R8.
> BT40 is quite a bit larger.............................................
> 
> 
> Greetings Timo



So back to the King of Tools,   I'm  curious to learn what lathe is possessed to you inevitably have get around the inevtiable boring and turning and screwcutting. 
Returning to milling, I have  2 conventioal  vertical slides which interchange on my 2 lathes and a  sprcialist  one with an integral divising and graduating facility and like BaronJ have  a rise and fall motor/grinding spindle on one of my grinders


Thanks 

Norman


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## timo_gross (Jun 7, 2021)

Off Topic,

Hi Norman,

In am not sure if I was asked a question personally. If so I would feel rude to ignore it. If I answer a question no one really asked, just ignore it 



goldstar31 said:


> So back to the King of Tools,   I'm  curious to learn what lathe is possessed to you inevitably have get around the inevtiable boring and turning and screwcutting.
> Returning to milling, I have  2 conventioal  vertical slides which interchange on my 2 lathes and a  sprcialist  one with an integral divising and graduating facility and like BaronJ have  a rise and fall motor/grinding spindle on one of my grinders
> 
> 
> ...



The lathe I am possessing is actually not mine , but it lives in the workshop and I am allowed to use it. It was built 1989, and still works reasonable.


It was bougth 2nd hand, to find a smaller one is difficult here. Good thing is; the same make and model is still in production, so accessories and spares are easy to get.

If someone cares for the details it is this one CH - 400 Machine tools, Lathe, conventional lathe, CNC lathe, slant bed CNC lathe, flat bed CNC lathe, lathe manufacturer
This is the first lathe I ever operated, and I am a total hobby beginner, no idea how it compares to other types.

Back to milling:

If you use a vertical attachment for milling, do you just clamp the endmill into the 3 jaw juck? Or would that be "forbidden".

Greetings Timo


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## jack620 (Jun 7, 2021)

Baltic said:


> One thing that annoys me a bit is the VFD, it is noisey, quite a high pitch.



Hello Baltic and welcome to the forum. The VFD I fitted to my pedestal drill has an adjustable PWM frequency so you can select a frequency that doesn't annoy you. Perhaps yours allows this too?


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## Baltic (Jun 7, 2021)

jack620 said:


> Hello Baltic and welcome to the forum. The VFD I fitted to my pedestal drill has an adjustable PWM frequency so you can select a frequency that doesn't annoy you. Perhaps yours allows this too?


Thanks Jack, A heap of reading material came with the mill, I will drag it out and have a read, I am thinking of putting a VFD on my old Chinese drill, I have the standard Baker, around 25 years old now, been a good drill, The drill on the mill is like 10 steps up ! 
Gary.


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## jack620 (Jun 7, 2021)

Baltic said:


> I am thinking of putting a VFD on my old Chinese drill



I recommend these guys: conon motor
A bit more expensive than eBay, but they offer good support and the manual that comes with the VFD is reasonably easy to understand.

My PD is mid-80s Taiwanese. I was able to dispense with the intermediate pulley. I replaced it with a belt tensioner.









Sorry for the thread drift!


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## goldstar31 (Jun 7, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Off Topic,
> 
> Hi Norman
> 
> ...



Thank you for curung my curiousity 
I would concentrate on getting the lathe working before any other 'distractions'
Then get it to make the accessories - which are usually missing.  Then I would  add a vwetical slide and vise and fit them into the tee slots if your lathe has then or if if hasn't-- why not drill and tap the saddle/boring table.  as for holding milling cutters in a 3 or 4 jaw?   The jury is divided but  there is no reason whatsoever not to  put one or two cutting tools into a bar of steel and sweep face it using either the  faceplate or the 4 jaw independent chuck. 
As for collets, only the ones to take the diameters of the 'hadfull?' of cutters  are useful.
Rambling on-as old men in the 90;s do, I would serioysly look into these ER Collets
As Old men tend to ramble on,  I stanfardised my lathes, mills, grinders and accessories to utilse ONE taper  i.e Morse. Arguably. there are better tapers but standardisation is the least expensive system

So thank you for your information and I  look forward to youur future accounts of your progree

Norman


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## Richard Hed (Jun 7, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> If you use a vertical attachment for milling, do you just clamp the endmill into the 3 jaw juck? Or would that be "forbidden".


That's exactly correct.  Just take care, as usual.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 7, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> That's exactly correct.  Just take care, as usual.



No this is a common concept and is fraught not onlt with problem but also danger.
Tge concept comes from those who are unwilling (or unable) to aquire the proper btool holding- though not neccesarily collets. Sadly, most do not have the training to know what might be wromg when a  milling citter is litersally [[ulled out of the 3 jsw chuck.
I'm not an engineer or a scientist. I'm a classisist and a awfully long retired accountant but- I'll try.

If one picks up a three jaw cuck,  the area of the gripping is ( at best) a frightening  tiny srea.   A milling cutter normally is  ground from a round piece of steel whereas the jaws are- when they are in go condition   FLAT. 

On the other side of the argument, a collet might sucessfully grip a threaded milling cutter or  have  almot 360 degrees of lips which provided amodt 360m  degrees of grip on the citter.  So, even a drill chuck which is essentially for drills( after  all they are ver simlar to milling cutters- have a relatvely huge are n the jaws.
THey may not be as accurate but the AREA of holding is there.
i

So the one, two three or whatever snstches and spral forces 'sntch and bring a screw--- screw out.

Don't blame me- blame A rchmedes


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## SmithDoor (Jun 7, 2021)

Looks great.
I did about same my mill improved the torque and for slow speed i can add center pulley. The center pulley is as large fit and i move the belt up one step for low speed give greater belt rap on small pulley increases the torque and same lowering the speed to 120 rpm.

Dave










jack620 said:


> I recommend these guys: conon motor
> A bit more expensive than eBay, but they offer good support and the manual that comes with the VFD is reasonably easy to understand.
> 
> My PD is mid-80s Taiwanese. I was able to dispense with the intermediate pulley. I replaced it with a belt tensioner.
> ...


----------



## HennieL (Jun 7, 2021)

Thanks for everyone's continued input - much appreciated.



SmithDoor said:


> How is hunt going finding the right mill for your line of work



Dave, I'm still looking - have received some quotes on new machines, but decided to follow advice from the Forum and also look into second hand units - not so easy living in South Africa... I will probably bite the bullet in a week or two if I don't find a decent second-hand unit.



mikelkie said:


> Hi Hennie, in RSA there are many Bridgeport mills to be had at very reasonable prices.



Mikelkie -
Maybe in Gauteng, but there's a dearth of such machines in Bloemfontein... And even in Gauteng, all those that I recently looked at were seriously worn, with cracked or chipped tables, busted bearings, and lots of play in all components. If one had the time one could conceivably re-do the whole machine, but I would prefer to get one that's in reasonably (accurate) working condition... and of course having dealt with some of our second-hand machine dealers, I don't have ANY faith in being told the truth about any machine that they are trying to sell, so it will probably have to be a private purchase. I am, though, still looking, so if you do know of a good quality unit please drop me a PM.



goldstar31 said:


> So back to the King of Tools,   I'm  curious to learn what lathe is possessed to you inevitably have get around the inevtiable boring and turning and screwcutting.
> Returning to milling, I have  2 conventioal  vertical slides which interchange on my 2 lathes and a  sprcialist  one with an integral divising and graduating facility and like BaronJ have  a rise and fall motor/grinding spindle on one of my grinders



Norman, not sure why a lathe is now thrown into the mix, and/or if the question was aimed at me? Anyway, as the OP, I have the following generic Chinese made lathe bought about 2 years ago, that I'm quite happy with:






I certainly would not like to be milling on my lathe, although it would be possible to do so in a manner... anyway, I'm not looking for a "workaround" solution, and would prefer to buy either a new machine that would be capable of the required accuracy and milling performance, or a good quality used machine that can still meet these requirements.

Hennie


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 7, 2021)

The China drill press can never take torque.

If VDF or DC motor you limited to torque at hight speed.

Great job Lots torque at low speed.
Good place for your post there is lot belt drive mills that have same problem as see my last post.

Dave 



jack620 said:


> I recommend these guys: conon motor
> A bit more expensive than eBay, but they offer good support and the manual that comes with the VFD is reasonably easy to understand.
> 
> My PD is mid-80s Taiwanese. I was able to dispense with the intermediate pulley. I replaced it with a belt tensioner.
> ...


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 7, 2021)

All my Bridgeport's was purchased over a 4 hour drive in LA or SF.
So good luck on finding it local.

Dave 



HennieL said:


> Thanks for everyone's continued input - much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## clockworkcheval (Jun 8, 2021)

For stability and precision you want to hold mills in a collet. For speed of handling you may use a drill chuck at the penalty of stability and some precision. A problem with the three jaw chuck - in addition to the already mentioned questionable holding power - is that if the mill slips the shank will be damaged. And a damaged shank will always damage a drill chuck and more seriously will damage your expensive collets. Therefore a golden workshop rule is to always rework shanks that are damaged and certainly before putting them in collets or drill chucks.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 8, 2021)

Where I live having a little shed or workshop is acceptable but things like Bridgeports are the fastest way of losing property values and more importantly- friendships.

In the cold and harsh world of reality, the average house price is about £250,0) and recently house prices have risen in value by 10.8%.


That is a lot of Bridgeports- if one is prepared to lose hard earned money


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## HennieL (Jun 8, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> Where I live having a little shed or workshop is acceptable but things like Bridgeports are the fastest way of losing property values and more importantly- friendships.



This is an interesting statement - do you care to elaborate? 
Not being an accountant, I cannot see how even a noisy milling machine would affect one's property value. After all, after you have sold the house you will be moving out with your machines, and any "lost" value would be immediately corrected... Creating unhappiness with the neighbours is of course a different matter IF they live very close to you, but that is also not the case with me.


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## Richard Hed (Jun 8, 2021)

HennieL said:


> This is an interesting statement - do you care to elaborate?
> Not being an accountant, I cannot see how even a noisy milling machine would affect one's property value. After all, after you have sold the house you will be moving out with your machines, and any "lost" value would be immediately corrected... Creating unhappiness with the neighbours is of course a different matter IF they live very close to you, but that is also not the case with me.


In USA, this would not happen, at least not leagally as we have noise ordinances (laws) that one cannot make noise from 8:00AM to 10:00 PM.  Besides, a mill reallly is not thta noisy anyway.  The loudest thing I have in my shop is my lathe and one cannot hear it if one stands in front of the garage door outside.  Owning a mill in my place would probably RAISE the property prices.

Whoops, that is, you cannot make noise OUTSIDE 8AM to 10PM.  During this time period you can make reasonable noise.  Most noise that we would make would be small compared to why the laws were made which mostly come from kids parties or kids seeking attention with their music so loud it shakes the neighbors windows and the cat and dog hide where their ears won't be destroyed and you cannot sleep but need to get up early for your work.


----------



## Richard Hed (Jun 8, 2021)

clockworkcheval said:


> For stability and precision you want to hold mills in a collet. For speed of handling you may use a drill chuck at the penalty of stability and some precision. A problem with the three jaw chuck - in addition to the already mentioned questionable holding power - is that if the mill slips the shank will be damaged. And a damaged shank will always damage a drill chuck and more seriously will damage your expensive collets. Therefore a golden workshop rule is to always rework shanks that are damaged and certainly before putting them in collets or drill chucks.


Absolutely.  If you have no choice, however, it is completly do-able as I have done it a couple times.  One must be careful and go slowly or you get a crappy part and have all the other problems people speak of.


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## goldstar31 (Jun 8, 2021)

HennieL said:


> This is an interesting statement - do you care to elaborate?
> Not being an accountant, I cannot see how even a noisy milling machine would affect one's property value. After all, after you have sold the house you will be moving out with your machines, and any "lost" value would be immediately corrected... Creating unhappiness with the neighbours is of course a different matter IF they live very close to you, but that is also not the case with me.


and others
Well No.   The propertyn is too valuable to sell
The story is Shavian or merely Masonic but George Bernard Shaw;s Pygmalian  sort of tells the story of I was like Elirags to riches aided by a friendly freemason or or in my case -  though I  could only gues- were masons.  
I was like the heroine in the story a snotty nosed urchin who didn't sell flowers but grew and sold spinach.
The most important thing in my life was- when I became a mason, I ytied to do somethubng much the same. I'm a Grand Patron of the Charity and it is meet and proper  that I have.

So hpuse valies?  Well I said a quarter of a million punds was averahe and had- accorfing to the Nationwide Building Society who does mortgages risen by 10.8%. So the houses across the little road are HALF the National  Average__. and far beyond where I was born  but after the ;pss of my eife, I hssve 'sold up' houses all over Europe and a, left with a house which is twkice or thrice the National Average- plus the obligatory amost 11%.  Or laughingly, to my kids as I am  getting on good terms whwith the Grim Reaper.

But- But in a few minutes my next Quorn kit is scheduled to arrive

Fraternal Greetings to my bretheren  and best wishes to those who  are not


Norman


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 8, 2021)

A drill chuck was not designed for side load. 

Dave 



clockworkcheval said:


> For stability and precision you want to hold mills in a collet. For speed of handling you may use a drill chuck at the penalty of stability and some precision. A problem with the three jaw chuck - in addition to the already mentioned questionable holding power - is that if the mill slips the shank will be damaged. And a damaged shank will always damage a drill chuck and more seriously will damage your expensive collets. Therefore a golden workshop rule is to always rework shanks that are damaged and certainly before putting them in collets or drill chucks.


----------



## awake (Jun 8, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> Looks great.
> I did about same my mill improved the torque and for slow speed i can add center pulley. The center pulley is as large fit and i move the belt up one step for low speed give greater belt rap on small pulley increases the torque and same lowering the speed to 120 rpm.
> 
> DaveView attachment 126345
> View attachment 126346


Big Red! I have one of those, converted to variable speed with a treadmill motor, and a different but comparable home-made fine-feed and quill DRO as I can see in your pictures. But my unit has been sitting unused for the last two or three years - I found a good price on a 2J Bridgeport and have found it so much more capable that I have simply never used the mill drill except as a shelf. I thought I would hold onto it to be a second-op mill or to serve as a semi-precision drill station, but it hasn't happened yet ...


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## SmithDoor (Jun 8, 2021)

I have mine for retirement
The Bridgeport is just to big to fit in garage with the wife's car.
But Big Red is just size as takes little space and 2 people to move.
Right now I working on Horizontal milling attachment that has a reduction too..

Any photos of Yours ?

Dave



awake said:


> Big Red! I have one of those, converted to variable speed with a treadmill motor, and a different but comparable home-made fine-feed and quill DRO as I can see in your pictures. But my unit has been sitting unused for the last two or three years - I found a good price on a 2J Bridgeport and have found it so much more capable that I have simply never used the mill drill except as a shelf. I thought I would hold onto it to be a second-op mill or to serve as a semi-precision drill station, but it hasn't happened yet ...


----------



## awake (Jun 8, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> Any photos of Yours ?



Sure! I don't have many on my computer, but here are a few. The first picture shows the overall mill (though you can't see the treadmill motor at the back, nor the motor controls mounted in the head on the left); the second picture shows the quill "DRO" (aka cheap HF digital caliper), and the third picture shows the way I did the fine feed.

The fourth picture will probably seem odd ... but it was one of the most important modifications I made to the Big Red. The head is secured to the column with a clamp, with the idea that the head can rotate on the column in order to extend its reach. Unfortunately, no matter how much I tensioned the clamping bolts, I found that the head sometimes rotated unintentionally due to medium-to-heavy cutting forces - which inevitably ruined the setup if not the part. I wound up drilling through the head and into the column and tapping the column, so that I could put a bolt through on each side to secure it where it could not rotate. I can still remove these bolts to rotate the head if needed (I think I needed to do that once in all the years I used the mill), but otherwise these two little bolts provide a lot of peace of mind.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 8, 2021)

One best thing I did Big Red is use a tang and draw bar for milling holder. It has 1/4" hole for draw bar. 
So just i just a 3/8" NC and drill and tap a 1/4"  NC the ground a tang threat in milling holder.
 Happy days no more milling holder turning in mill.

Dave 



awake said:


> Big Red! I have one of those, converted to variable speed with a treadmill motor, and a different but comparable home-made fine-feed and quill DRO as I can see in your pictures. But my unit has been sitting unused for the last two or three years - I found a good price on a 2J Bridgeport and have found it so much more capable that I have simply never used the mill drill except as a shelf. I thought I would hold onto it to be a second-op mill or to serve as a semi-precision drill station, but it hasn't happened yet ...


----------



## awake (Jun 8, 2021)

Did yours not come with a draw bar from the factory? Mine did - an odd shaped one to be sure, since it has to be inserted from the bottom of the quill rather than from the top, but definitely a draw bar is needed. I have never felt the need for a tang - with the draw bar and the Morse taper, the concern I have had a few times is that the tooling gets TOO tight and requires supreme effort to release. Never ever had any tooling spin on me ...

Here's a picture of the draw bar from my unit:


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 8, 2021)

Looks great 
Mine looks used today.

I did upgrade to a 3/4 HP motor and reverse for tapping.

Good news Big Red is still made today and you find all parts.

Dave

I am use all thread for the draw bar HF was to cheap to supply one



awake said:


> Sure! I don't have many on my computer, but here are a few. The first picture shows the overall mill (though you can't see the treadmill motor at the back, nor the motor controls mounted in the head on the left); the second picture shows the quill "DRO" (aka cheap HF digital caliper), and the third picture shows the way I did the fine feed.
> 
> The fourth picture will probably seem odd ... but it was one of the most important modifications I made to the Big Red. The head is secured to the column with a clamp, with the idea that the head can rotate on the column in order to extend its reach. Unfortunately, no matter how much I tensioned the clamping bolts, I found that the head sometimes rotated unintentionally due to medium-to-heavy cutting forces - which inevitably ruined the setup if not the part. I wound up drilling through the head and into the column and tapping the column, so that I could put a bolt through on each side to secure it where it could not rotate. I can still remove these bolts to rotate the head if needed (I think I needed to do that once in all the years I used the mill), but otherwise these two little bolts provide a lot of peace of mind.


----------



## awake (Jun 8, 2021)

Yes, I had cleaned up the machine when I took those pictures. It definitely looks a wee bit more used at the moment - even though it has been sitting unused for two or three years!


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 8, 2021)

It is great small mill but come simi finish. 
But China with very low cost labor it is great set a day worker to do just cut. 

I suprises no one has no made upgrade kit 

Today there no mill of that size sold in America, either a mini mill or a the large bench. 

Dave 



awake said:


> Yes, I had cleaned up the machine when I took those pictures. It definitely looks a wee bit more used at the moment - even though it has been sitting unused for two or three years!


----------



## Steamchick (Jun 9, 2021)

I have a very similar "mill-drill" (Neither one nor the other, but a compromise). And it too has been modified to take an extra locking bolt to prevent rotation.
But I have changed the original bolts for new high-tensile, and have no problem with rotation any more. Dynamically, I try and set-up so all milling forces/reactions are not developing torque on the head, but are directed towards the mill column. But that isn't always possible. Due to a very tight corner, the head is always at an angle to the carriage travel anyway, so I can only minimise the torque, not eliminate it. I hesitate to use the extra tapping as a locking bolt, as I don't want to damage the column, and the original location is wrong for me anyway. I have to raise and lower the head sometimes for drilling, or changing from milling to drilling, or chuck to bed of carriage. So judicious and careful lighter cuts and feed ensure I don't generate the torque that would cause slip of the head on the column anyway. When slip did happen, I found it was many tiny incremental movements, not a single slip. So you can't detect it happening. But a dab of typists correction fluid on the column/head that cracked at the first slippage showed me what was going wrong, and why the cut wasn't as the scale on the feed.
These are NOT industrial quality tools - cost but a small fraction of a decent tool, so respect the tool you can afford, for what it can do, and don't expect "industrial" cutting speeds and feeds. Even though mine has a 1.5Hp. Motor, and FWD-REV control, I always tap by hand rotation so I can "feel" the cut. - Avoids broken taps, especially on a complicated job, or casting. (Easy to release the motor belt tension, to free the quill).
I like the machine, despite its shortcomings.
Don't blame the tool, just learn to live within its limitations, until you need or can afford better. This is a Hobby, to be enjoyed for as long as possible, not a business where speed and time are money.
Different folks, especially blokes!
Nuff sed.
K2


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 9, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> I have a very similar "mill-drill" (Neither one nor the other, but a compromise). And it too has been modified to take an extra locking bolt to prevent rotation.
> 
> Nuff sed.
> K2



I probably have same thing or sumular but like  K2, I can live. within the parameters of the tool.
Whilst the neighbours might rightly 'take umbrage' at a larger tool, the question becomes more serious where planning permission has unduly to br sought for large premis es  that might conceivab;ly be  regar d ed as 'business' premises and - should permiddion be given, it would automatically not only attract r ates  and goimg into a a higher basnd but lsrger rates and the nreddity to make business tax returns  under in the case. of the UK - case 1 Schedule D whereas the normal Schrdule E exists.
Of course it  doen't end there but as the notional value of the property inevitably rises- i.e, the 10.9% but being business premises- in whole or i psrt- arracts the dreaded Capital Gains tax.

I'm still with it in tax knowledge and those who sell on E-BBay from what is ostensibly their home - or indeed 'work from home; during the pandemic- are lible to prison or a fine and TREBBLE the tax which would have been due.

The HM Revenue have made no concessions ffor deaths through Covid-19 nor that people have had no alternative but to 'work from home'

As I learned many years ago in the Law part of accountancy---- IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.
So you think that playing about with an ov ersize lmll is exciting.

You ain't seen nuttin' yet


----------



## clockworkcheval (Jun 9, 2021)

Noise is not a big issue in my old countryside farm. My next neighbour 1 mile off is the nursery of my brother. He mainly employs farmer-kids from age 14 - 20 who try to save up for their first motorbike. Their daily noise easily surpasses any noise from my workshop. The top-sound is made by his annual nursery barbecue, when many village kids are introduced to their first serious encounter with alcohol. Somewhere early evening the party is joined by the local fire fighters who extinguish the abundant bonfires. And another year of relative quiet. My brother never complains of any noise made by me or my chainsaws.


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## MRA (Jun 9, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> I have a very similar "mill-drill" (Neither one nor the other, but a compromise)...Don't blame the tool, just learn to live within its limitations...



I enjoyed your comments above, and it made me remember I had some updates to do on my own mill-drill thread (that is, doing what most people say is time-consuming and somewhat futile - turning a pillar drill into a miller).  If anyone would like to see an alternative take on the mill-drill idea, have a flick though this.  I think the link may work to the latest updates, and you can scroll back if you want to see more of this silly quest.  Sorry the pictures are not very good - my shed is very small and crowded, hence the 'multi-tool' approach. 






						Adapting a pillar drill for vertical milling - new chuck
					

...and the result works really well.  I can now put a 1mm cut on in mild steel with a 3/8" end mill, and using some soluble oil in a cheapo squeezy pipette I can get a good cut with very little vibration and a reasonable rate of feed.  Finish is good.  So...next installments might be adding...




					www.homemodelenginemachinist.com
				




cheers
Mark


----------



## roncohudd (Jun 9, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> All my Bridgeport's was purchased over a 4 hour drive in LA or SF.
> So good luck on finding it local.
> 
> Dave


I've been using my Bridgeport for about 8 years. Had to change the power feed from the old Bridgeport to an aftermarket. I've been using R8 Colletts for all my machining life. My Japanese Honeoye was a better machine than the Bridgeport although the Bridgeport is fine for my retirement days.


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 9, 2021)

I put a servo type power feed on my mill. 
Did put on power feed on yours ?

Dave 



awake said:


> Yes, I had cleaned up the machine when I took those pictures. It definitely looks a wee bit more used at the moment - even though it has been sitting unused for two or three years!


----------



## awake (Jun 9, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> These are NOT industrial quality tools - cost but a small fraction of a decent tool, so respect the tool you can afford, for what it can do, and don't expect "industrial" cutting speeds and feeds. Even though mine has a 1.5Hp. Motor, and FWD-REV control, I always tap by hand rotation so I can "feel" the cut. - Avoids broken taps, especially on a complicated job, or casting. (Easy to release the motor belt tension, to free the quill).
> I like the machine, despite its shortcomings.
> Don't blame the tool, just learn to live within its limitations, until you need or can afford better. This is a Hobby, to be enjoyed for as long as possible, not a business where speed and time are money.


Yep, that's what I did with Big Red, and though on a different scale, that's what I continue to do with the Bridgeport. Part of machining is knowing the limits of the tool. But part also is creative fixturing that lets you work beyond those limits. I did a lot of that through the years on Big Red, machining some parts that significantly exceeded the limited table travel. It is all about the fixturing!


----------



## awake (Jun 9, 2021)

SmithDoor said:


> I put a servo type power feed on my mill.
> Did put on power feed on yours ?


 
I started to - worked up an X-axis power feed based on a windshield wiper motor. It did not perform very well, and I was needing to work on other projects, so it got set aside ... and has stayed in a drawer for the last 10 years or more. Now moot, since the BP has a power feed. The thing that really would have transformed the Big Red experience for me would have been a DRO on the table (even just a converted 12" digital caliper) - my lead screws were 6 tpi, which works out to .166666666" per revolution of the hand wheel, which works out to a major pain in the rear for calculating positions. I worked up a table that helped, and just got used to doing the calculations ... and as I said, did a LOT of milling on that little machine, in spite of its many limitations and compromises!


----------



## willray (Jun 9, 2021)

goldstar31 said:


> As I learned many years ago in the Law part of accountancy---- IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.
> So you think that playing about with an ov ersize lmll is exciting.
> 
> You ain't seen nuttin' yet



Just... Wow.

I have never in my life been so happy to live in a pretentious little upstart of a colony that decided that they'd had enough of this!

Will Ray


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 9, 2021)

I purchased a power feed from Harbor Freight for large bench mill at same as did mill. 
Later I purchased from Shars still new in box. I use dial indicators (2" stroke) on other tools I used on Big Red too. 
It cheers the DRO like new.

Dave 



awake said:


> I started to - worked up an X-axis power feed based on a windshield wiper motor. It did not perform very well, and I was needing to work on other projects, so it got set aside ... and has stayed in a drawer for the last 10 years or more. Now moot, since the BP has a power feed. The thing that really would have transformed the Big Red experience for me would have been a DRO on the table (even just a converted 12" digital caliper) - my lead screws were 6 tpi, which works out to .166666666" per revolution of the hand wheel, which works out to a major pain in the rear for calculating positions. I worked up a table that helped, and just got used to doing the calculations ... and as I said, did a LOT of milling on that little machine, in spite of its many limitations and compromises!


----------



## MRA (Jun 9, 2021)

willray said:


> Just... Wow.
> 
> I have never in my life been so happy to live in a pretentious little upstart of a colony that decided that they'd had enough of this!
> 
> Will Ray


I think Norman might be a little confused (or is no longer in the UK?).  Most of the country has been working from home for the last 15 months.  There is no tax situation (though my gas bill certainly knows all about it, with people here all day through last winter).


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 9, 2021)

awake said:


> Yep, that's what I did with Big Red, and though on a different scale, that's what I continue to do with the Bridgeport. Part of machining is knowing the limits of the tool. But part also is creative fixturing that lets you work beyond those limits. I did a lot of that through the years on Big Red, machining some parts that significantly exceeded the limited table travel. It is all about the fixturing!



Hi Guys,

Talking about fixturing this is how I fastened my 6X4 bandsaw body to the mill table in order to mill out the slot that the blade drops into.  I put a solid metal block in there in order to support cutting thin slices of material.






I used three pieces of M8 threaded rod to hold it and stop it moving.


----------



## BaronJ (Jun 9, 2021)

awake said:


> I started to - worked up an X-axis power feed based on a windshield wiper motor. It did not perform very well, and I was needing to work on other projects, so it got set aside ... and has stayed in a drawer for the last 10 years or more. Now moot, since the BP has a power feed. The thing that really would have transformed the Big Red experience for me would have been a DRO on the table (even just a converted 12" digital caliper) - my lead screws were 6 tpi, which works out to .166666666" per revolution of the hand wheel, which works out to a major pain in the rear for calculating positions. I worked up a table that helped, and just got used to doing the calculations ... and as I said, did a LOT of milling on that little machine, in spite of its many limitations and compromises!



Hi Andy, Guys,

I designed and built an "X" table feed using a window screen wiper motor for my mill which I use to this day !  I certainly cannot criticise its performance, it certainly has no lack of power or speed.  While the motor is reversible I built a tumbler reverse into the drive chain which gives me forward/stop and reverse.  Its not commonly known that the wiper motors are not designed to be reversed.


----------



## goldstar31 (Jun 9, 2021)

As fas I am aware the Tax law has not changed.

If it has, plesse quote chapter and verse--- From the Finance Act. 

The British Constitution ( Professor A V  Dicey writing on it)  reminds us that if '-

The Law is an ass
It is the LAW.
He. went on to remind us. that a country gets the government that t desrves.


i


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 9, 2021)

The joy of spinning head and parts it just part of the hobby. 
In my case fixed. No special bolts that titan to max or beyond. 
Just a simple torque arm.

Dave 



Steamchick said:


> I have a very similar "mill-drill" (Neither one nor the other, but a compromise). And it too has been modified to take an extra locking bolt to prevent rotation.
> But I have changed the original bolts for new high-tensile, and have no problem with rotation any more. Dynamically, I try and set-up so all milling forces/reactions are not developing torque on the head, but are directed towards the mill column. But that isn't always possible. Due to a very tight corner, the head is always at an angle to the carriage travel anyway, so I can only minimise the torque, not eliminate it. I hesitate to use the extra tapping as a locking bolt, as I don't want to damage the column, and the original location is wrong for me anyway. I have to raise and lower the head sometimes for drilling, or changing from milling to drilling, or chuck to bed of carriage. So judicious and careful lighter cuts and feed ensure I don't generate the torque that would cause slip of the head on the column anyway. When slip did happen, I found it was many tiny incremental movements, not a single slip. So you can't detect it happening. But a dab of typists correction fluid on the column/head that cracked at the first slippage showed me what was going wrong, and why the cut wasn't as the scale on the feed.
> These are NOT industrial quality tools - cost but a small fraction of a decent tool, so respect the tool you can afford, for what it can do, and don't expect "industrial" cutting speeds and feeds. Even though mine has a 1.5Hp. Motor, and FWD-REV control, I always tap by hand rotation so I can "feel" the cut. - Avoids broken taps, especially on a complicated job, or casting. (Easy to release the motor belt tension, to free the quill).
> I like the machine, despite its shortcomings.
> ...


----------



## Richard Hed (Jun 10, 2021)

has anybody got one of these:  
*Grizzly G0757 - 9" x 39" 2 HP Horizontal/Vertical Mill with Power Feed*

I'm thimpfking of buying one but want to know what other people thimpfk.  There are only two reviews on it in the Grizz site.  Does anyone know anything about it?


----------



## Steamchick (Jun 11, 2021)

Maybe?





						New Tee Slotted Milling Table - 4 inch x 5 inch - Chronos Engineering Supplies
					

New Tee Slotted Milling Table - 4 inch x 5 inch from Chronos Engineering Supplies. Free UK delivery and great worldwide rates.




					www.chronos.ltd.uk
				



A bit limited here in Blighty!
K


----------



## Steamchick (Jun 11, 2021)

OOOPS!
Put this post in the wrong thread... silly me!
K2


----------



## roncohudd (Jun 11, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> has anybody got one of these:
> *Grizzly G0757 - 9" x 39" 2 HP Horizontal/Vertical Mill with Power Feed*
> 
> I'm thimpfking of buying one but want to know what other people thimpfk.  There are only two reviews on it in the Grizz site.  Does anyone know anything about it?


Don't know much about the Grizzly mills, but my Grizzly 13 x 40 lathe is awesome. So is my machine vice and rotary table.


----------



## Richard Hed (Jun 11, 2021)

roncohudd said:


> Don't know much about the Grizzly mills, but my Grizzly 13 x 40 lathe is awesome. So is my machine vice and rotary table.


yup, I've got a G4003G.  It's awesum too.


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## SmithDoor (Jun 11, 2021)

If Big Red had longer table would be helpful.

But for small size is helpful in a small shop space and if you move too.

I use dial indicator for positing and not notice the lead screws was 6 tpi.

I did read on internet use a drill motor and simple worm gear box.

Dave 



awake said:


> I started to - worked up an X-axis power feed based on a windshield wiper motor. It did not perform very well, and I was needing to work on other projects, so it got set aside ... and has stayed in a drawer for the last 10 years or more. Now moot, since the BP has a power feed. The thing that really would have transformed the Big Red experience for me would have been a DRO on the table (even just a converted 12" digital caliper) - my lead screws were 6 tpi, which works out to .166666666" per revolution of the hand wheel, which works out to a major pain in the rear for calculating positions. I worked up a table that helped, and just got used to doing the calculations ... and as I said, did a LOT of milling on that little machine, in spite of its many limitations and compromises!


----------



## SmithDoor (Jun 11, 2021)

That type has been around since 1970's.
They just to many horizontal mills around at time.

Today with rent going up, labor going going up and shops need more from producing they looking back the old days.

My self in my shop had 2# size horizontal mill production.
You use more than cutter at time and increases in feed at least 20 times and thin cut over 100 times faster.

Dave



Richard Hed said:


> has anybody got one of these:
> *Grizzly G0757 - 9" x 39" 2 HP Horizontal/Vertical Mill with Power Feed*
> 
> I'm thimpfking of buying one but want to know what other people thimpfk.  There are only two reviews on it in the Grizz site.  Does anyone know anything about it?


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## SmithDoor (Jun 11, 2021)

Here is site on data on Big Red mill.


			https://groups.io/g/Drillmillhttps://groups.io/g/Drillmill
		


Here power feed on my mill







awake said:


> Big Red! I have one of those, converted to variable speed with a treadmill motor, and a different but comparable home-made fine-feed and quill DRO as I can see in your pictures. But my unit has been sitting unused for the last two or three years - I found a good price on a 2J Bridgeport and have found it so much more capable that I have simply never used the mill drill except as a shelf. I thought I would hold onto it to be a second-op mill or to serve as a semi-precision drill station, but it hasn't happened yet ...


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## awake (Jun 11, 2021)

BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Talking about fixturing this is how I fastened my 6X4 bandsaw body to the mill table in order to mill out the slot that the blade drops into.  I put a solid metal block in there in order to support cutting thin slices of material.
> 
> ...


Baron, I would love to hear more about the modifications you have made to your 4x6 bandsaw!


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## BaronJ (Jun 12, 2021)

awake said:


> Baron, I would love to hear more about the modifications you have made to your 4x6 bandsaw!



Hi Andy,

No problem !  I'll start a new thread.


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## timo_gross (Jun 14, 2021)

Just because I am desperate for some sympathy. 

Malicious Joy is what I will cause  
A chip conveyor is a nice bragging rig, until the weekend comes were you decide to clean it. Uuuuugh....
so when thinking of nicer bigger machines, think of the downsides.
Compressor permanently running, filthy coolant tanks, noise, oil consumption.  
More bigger not always more better.... !




Good luck I found a professional recycler who picks up the old waste.

Greetings Timo


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## HennieL (Jun 14, 2021)

Timo,

Man... that's just bragging... like the guy complaining that he pays $1 000 000.00 tax every year  

But yes, you have my sympathy - I battle to just clear the chip tray below my lathe every week or two


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## L98fiero (Jun 14, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Just because I am desperate for some sympathy.
> 
> Malicious Joy is what I will cause
> A chip conveyor is a nice bragging rig, until the weekend comes were you decide to clean it. Uuuuugh....
> ...


An airstone bubbler and an oil skimmer will save a lot of the costs of dumping and refilling it by prolonging the life of the coolant. Not sure what it's like where you are but in Canada getting rid of the old coolant is often as expensive or more than the original cost of the coolant if you go with the companies that specialize in that. Luckily, our local, government contracted recycling depots will accept the coolant for free if you bring it in.


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## timo_gross (Jun 14, 2021)

L98fiero said:


> An airstone bubbler and an oil skimmer will save a lot of the costs of dumping and refilling it by prolonging the life of the coolant. Not sure what it's like where you are but in Canada getting rid of the old coolant is often as expensive or more than the original cost of the coolant if you go with the companies that specialize in that. Luckily, our local, government contracted recycling depots will accept the coolant for free if you bring it in.


Thank you for commenting, 

Is that airstone bubbler one like in a fish tank? I mean, could I even use one for an aquarium? There is a disc oil skimmer on the tank that takes care of the worst. ( oilskimmer was not working properly, causing extra trouble. Fixed it some time ago)
Some company offered to pick the old **** up (Taiwan, a high density of machine shops). I am reliefed that it will not be very expensive.

Today I am procrastinating posting things in the forum, instead of cleaning the machine.  

Cheers Timo


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## L98fiero (Jun 14, 2021)

timo_gross said:


> Is that airstone bubbler one like in a fish tank? I mean, could I even use one for an aquarium? There is a disc oil skimmer on the tank that takes care of the worst. ( oilskimmer was not working properly, causing extra trouble. Fixed it some time ago)
> Some company offered to pick the old **** up (Taiwan, a high density of machine shops). I am reliefed that it will not be very expensive.
> 
> Today I am procrastinating posting things in the forum, instead of cleaning the machine.
> ...


Yes, air stones for aquariums work and just a aquarium air pump. You have to clean the air stones every week or so but it's a minor inconvenience compared to removing the primordial slime in the sump, I can understand the procrastination .


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