# Plumbing Parts Engine



## cfellows (Oct 9, 2009)

I guess this can officially be called a work in progress now. The plumbing tee used for the cylinder block is a 1/2" brass tee. I bored it out so the 1/2" brass nipple cylinder is a sliding fit inside the tee. This will be soldered into the tee permanently at some point. 

As a point of reference, the flywheel is 7.25" in diameter. The cylinder bore is ~.65 and the stroke will be around 1.5" - 1.75". I'm working on the cylinder head now. It will be an overhead valve arrangement and the head will attach to the cylinder block with 4-40 SHCS.

I'm trying to keep the design as simple (rustic) as possible. I'm hoping the combination of a low compression ratio, large flywheel and long stroke will keep the engine RPM's pretty low.

Chuck


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## Captain Jerry (Oct 9, 2009)

Good start Chuck. I'm in. Is this going to be IC or steam?

Jerry


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## cfellows (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah, it's gonna be an IC engine. I changed the title from Henry Ford engine to Plumbing Parts engine since my engine will not be a reproduction of the original. My valve and head arrangement will be much different than Ford's. I also plan to use a foam vapor carb instead of the drip used by Ford. 

More to follow.

Chuck


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## Deanofid (Oct 9, 2009)

This sounds like a fun project, Chuck. Where did you find/buy the flywheel?

Dean


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 9, 2009)

Chuck---I will be watching this with interest too. I haven't made the leap from air/steam to internal combustion yet, but----


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## cfellows (Oct 10, 2009)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> This sounds like a fun project, Chuck. Where did you find/buy the flywheel?
> 
> Dean



Dean, I don't remember for sure, but I think I picked that flywheel up at NAMES a number of years ago. Wish I had more like it!

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 10, 2009)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Chuck---I will be watching this with interest too. I haven't made the leap from air/steam to internal combustion yet, but----



Brian, my intent is to make this as about as simple as an IC engine can be without buying a lot of parts. The head is going to be an interesting exercise in milling but shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Chuck


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## ariz (Oct 10, 2009)

uhmm... an ibrid Ford - plumbing parts engine... looks interesting!
I'll follow you too, cfellows

recently I started to like IC engines more than steam engines (maybe my old passions, mechanic, cars, etc. were coming back  )


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## cfellows (Oct 10, 2009)

Got started on the cylinder head today. Here is probably more nauseating detail than you ever wanted!

Faced the end of a 1.25" cast iron bar:






Here I've turned 7/8" of the bar down to the diameter of the pipe tee end (1.220").






After cutting off and facing the other end, the cylinder head height is .75"






Next I bored a void in the head 3/4" diamter and 3/8" deep.






Next I milled a 3/8" wide flat on one side for the spark plug. Not enough room for the valves and sparkplug all on the flat face of the head:






I drilled and tapped the hole for the 1/4" x 32 spark plug. Here you see the plug in place. Sorry, kind of blurry...






And here you can see the sparkplug bottom inside the void in the head:






Finally, another mockup of the engine so far. I made a new cylinder block out of a black cast iron pipe tee and a length of 1/2" steep pipe nipple. I decided the brass looked too fancy!






The steel pipe nipple is pretty lousy material and it's hard to get a smooth bore. I got a pretty acceptable bore by honing with a 5/8" flex hone like this:






Gotta figure out what the next operation will be for the head...


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## black85vette (Oct 11, 2009)

Nice project. I'm watching but don't have questions..... yet.


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## arnoldb (Oct 11, 2009)

Nice going Chuck Thm:

Love this: 





> I decided the brass looked too fancy!



Regards, Arnold


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## bearcar1 (Oct 11, 2009)

Oh, I don't know Chuck, that brass fitting would look pretty nice. Not too 'blingy', but period character just the same. The cast iron one just leaves the impression of Uncle Billy Joe's still up in the hills. ;D

BC1
Jim


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## 4wheels (Oct 11, 2009)

Hi Chuck,
I just wished you had not done this! I have too many projects started and not finished and you pop up with something far too interesting to ignor.
I will be following with interest and maybe advancing this up the list of things to do.
Cheers,


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## cfellows (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks for the comments, folks.  Here's a couple more pictures. I drilled the holes for the valves guides and the inlet and exhaust ports. Since the valve guides will just be pressed in, I'm a little concerned that I may have to remake the head a little longer so I have more of the valve guides in the holes. There's only about 1/16" inch between the the ports and the top of the head. I'm thinking I'd like at least 1/8".


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## chuck foster (Oct 11, 2009)

looking good so far chuck.................ic is the way to go  ;D

chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 11, 2009)

Diymania  said:
			
		

> Nice work! What will you be using for the valves, stressproof, drill rod or standard steel ?



Drill rod is my usual material of choice for valves. These will be 5/16" face diameter. I'm thinking I may have to make a valve seat cutter...

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 12, 2009)

Okay, I'm not as fast as Brian, but making slow progress. I got the holes drilled and the head mounted to the cylinder block. I'm shooting for the "not-gonna-do-too-much-work-until-I-see-if-it-works" look.






Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 12, 2009)

Chuck--You're just not as obsessive/compulsive as I am!!! ;D ;D When I start a new project that really interests me, I just can't leave the darn thing alone. This is both a blessing (Projects do get done quickly) and a curse (I can't stop thinking about what I will design/machine next on the project) and can't go to sleep at night because my brain is on fire thinking about it. One would think that after 63 years I would "pace myself" better, but it just doesn't work that way. One thing about your projects, they certainly are interesting!!!---Brian


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## cfellows (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks, Brian. I think the real reason is you're just younger than me! I'm almost 66!  :big:

Here's the last one for today. Maybe for a few days since I think my wife has plans for me tomorrow.

This is a picture with the Valve Guides pressed in. They are brass. The top part is about 3/16" diameter and the hole for the valve stem is 1/8".


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## cfellows (Oct 18, 2009)

Been shopping for a mattress and kitchen cabinets, so I haven't had much time to spend on the engine the past few days. However, I did get out in the shop today and got the Crankcase, if that's what you'd call it, pretty well put together. These pictures are in reverse order so you can see what's going on.

This is the mockup with the crankcase in place. It's made from two pieces of angle iron welded together to form a "U":






Here is a closeup of the finished weld. This is the first time I've used a MIG welder and I am impressed with the ease and the finished weld. I've never been an accomplished welder and my old sputter-box welds were pretty rough. This was done with my new Lincoln 140SP using flux cored wire.






Here's the setup ready to weld. The angle halves are clamped together in an old machinist vise:






In this picture, I've just faced off one leg of the angle iron to be sure it's square to the other leg. I did this to both halves.






And here's the two halves clamped back to back and mounted in my milling vise so I can drill the holes for the crankshaft. I was a little worried about the holes lining up after I welded the halves together, but I lined them up with a 3/8" bar when I clamped them in the machinist vice. I also waited until after I'd welded them to ream them to final size.






That's it for now.

Chuck


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## PhillyVa (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi Chuck,

I'm liking this build and your weld looks OK (just fine) to me. Did you do a back weld?

Regards

Philly


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## cfellows (Oct 18, 2009)

PhillyVa  said:
			
		

> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I'm liking this build and your weld looks OK (just fine) to me. Did you do a back weld?
> 
> ...



Thx, Philly. Yes, the bottom was also welded then ground flat on my belt grinder.

Chuck


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## Bill Mc (Oct 19, 2009)

Hi Chuck - You are coming along just great with your engine. I have gathered most of the materials for the full-sized version of this engine (namely Henry Ford's First Engine) and I will soon be getting started on it.


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## b.lindsey (Oct 19, 2009)

Chuck, this is an interesting build to follow. I have a friend locally who built the original Henry Ford version and it could be somewhat finiky to run. I think your adaptations should help greatly in that regard while maintaining the spirit of the original. Great work so far and I look forward to more.

Bill


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## cfellows (Oct 19, 2009)

Bill Mc  said:
			
		

> Hi Chuck - You are coming along just great with your engine. I have gathered most of the materials for the full-sized version of this engine (namely Henry Ford's First Engine) and I will soon be getting started on it.



Hi Bill Mc, thanks for the comments. I look forward to seeing your build progress and how it goes.



			
				wlindiii  said:
			
		

> Chuck, this is an interesting build to follow. I have a friend locally who built the original Henry Ford version and it could be somewhat finiky to run. I think your adaptations should help greatly in that regard while maintaining the spirit of the original. Great work so far and I look forward to more.
> 
> Bill



windlii, I'm hoping that my head design and switching to a petrol foam carburetor will fix most of the temperament problems.

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 20, 2009)

I've been a little uneasy about my approach to the valve guides I pressed into the head. It's pretty hard to be sure they are in straight, and, subsequently, to get the valves to seat against the inside of the head. Lo and behold, I just got my new Model Engine Builder magazine yesterday and it has an article on valve cages. Love this approach, since you are making the entire valve cagepiece, including the seat, on the lathe before you press it into the head. This gives you a much greater probability of getting the valve to seat properly and the aligment of the cage with receiving hole in the head is not nearly as critical.

As a reminder, the previous valve guides were only pressed part way into the head the valve seat would have been cut into the cast iron cylinder side of the head. The new valve cages are larger in diameter and go all the way through the head. The valve stem and head are all contained within the valve cage.

Here's a couple of pictures of the new valve cages in place and the previous valve guides laying in front of the head.


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## 4wheels (Oct 21, 2009)

Fasinating engine - it is my "to do list" or "bucket list" along with a million others regretably. Only regetable in that I doubt if I will be lucky to get 20% anything like finished.
I like the way you can adapted and change the design details as you go. A very practical approach to be admired.
Keep it up.
Cheers,


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## cfellows (Oct 21, 2009)

4wheels  said:
			
		

> Fasinating engine - it is my "to do list" or "bucket list" along with a million others regretably. Only regetable in that I doubt if I will be lucky to get 20% anything like finished.
> I like the way you can adapted and change the design details as you go. A very practical approach to be admired.
> Keep it up.
> Cheers,



Thanks, 4wheels. I like to keep my options open as I proceed with a build. I would hate to scrap the whole project because of one, unforseen design element.

Like you, I unfortunately have a lot of unfinished projects. Here's a picture of my unfinished engine drawer There's parts for at least 4 engines in there...






Chuck


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## RobWilson (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi Chuck 

I thought i was the only one with a draw FULL of UN FINISHED engines under construction :big:  


Regards Rob


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## cfellows (Oct 22, 2009)

OK, more pictures! The significant other went shopping today so I had some quality time in the shop. These pictures are in reverse order again, showing the result first and how I got there in subsequent pictures.

I am building the engine with a 3/8" crankshaft and the flywheel I'm using had a 1/2" hole from some previous unrealized use. I decided to make a tapered collet type clamp to fasten the flywheel to the crankshaft. The finished product is shown mounted in the vise:






Another picture from a different angle shows the 4 screws that pull the tapered clamp into the flywheel.






Here is the flywheel and the tapered clamp shown separately. What is not shown is a slit cut axially along the length of the collet.






And here is the setup in the lathe after I cut the taper and bored the 3/8" hole






The taper in the flywheel and on the collet clamp are both cut with compound set at a 4 degree angle


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 22, 2009)

Chuck---That is really slick!!! I have used "Squeeze Lock Hubs" for years now on a lot of the things I design, but I never thought of applying that to model work. How wide is your sliting saw?--I'm assuming that you used a slitting saw in your mill, right?---Brian


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## vlmarshall (Oct 22, 2009)

Nice hub! You forgot to point out the importance of the two THREADED removal holes in the hub. ;D


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## cfellows (Oct 22, 2009)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Chuck---That is really slick!!! I have used "Squeeze Lock Hubs" for years now on a lot of the things I design, but I never thought of applying that to model work. How wide is your sliting saw?--I'm assuming that you used a slitting saw in your mill, right?---Brian



Ummm... actually, Brian, I just used my metal cutting bandsaw to cut the slit. The slit is about .035" wide.



			
				Vernon  said:
			
		

> Nice hub! You forgot to point out the importance of the two THREADED removal holes in the hub. ;D



You're right, Vernon. The two holes with no screws in them are threaded so you can loosen all 4 screws, remove two of them and screw them into the threaded holes. They act as jacks to loosen up the collet so you can remove the shaft. Very important, or you'll really bugger up the collet trying to get it to "let loose".

Chuck


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## 4wheels (Oct 22, 2009)

I didn't to where I am today by bu88ering up my collet!

Really nice job and as stated above "Very slick" much better than a plain sleeve and grub screw(s). Keep it up.

Cheers,


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## Deanofid (Oct 22, 2009)

Nice looking taper lock, Chuck. I used to work as a welder/repairman for various rock companies. I think every conveyor sheave I ever changed out had one of these on it. Hadn't thought about one for years! Good job on this one.


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## cfellows (Oct 25, 2009)

Got some more work done on the Henry Ford engine the past couple of days. I finished making the piston out of cast iron. I was a little dismayed to find out that my cylinder bore was conical. I managed to fix it by lapping the cylinder, a process that seems to be somewhere between black magic and holding my mouth just right. 






I also completed the crank shaft. The "disk" is made from 1/4" thick cold rolled and is mig-welded to the 3/8" shaft. I was going to silver solder it, but I couldn't get the valve opened on my brand new bottle of acetylene. Back to the welding supply shop to see if they'll trade it out.






And, finally, I attached a step-up block under the crankshaft bracket to bring the assembly up to the correct height. An example of using what I had on hand for the crank bracket and making adjustments later with the step-up block! I also added a couple of coats of polyurethane varnish to keep from getting oil stains on the raw wood.






The wooden base, by the way, is made out of Birch hardwood.

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 26, 2009)

Another bit finished. Here is the connecting rod. It's about 10" from hole to hole and is made from a length of 3/16 drill rod. The large end is a 5/8" diameter by 1/4" thick brass disk drilled out to the center hole to receive the 3/16 drill rod. It's silver soldered into place. The small end is a 3/8" diameter by 1/4" thick piece of drill rod. It was radially drilled and the 3/16 con rod pushed all the way through before being silver soldered into place. The 1/8" wrist pin hole was then drilled through both pieces.






And another mock up with the con rod (roughly) in place.






Been putting it off, but I guess the valves are going to be next, well after the wrist pin and crank pin...

Chuck


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm enjoying this thread. It makes me think of the times...hm...I don't know quite how to say...when things began. It's not really true...ideas build on ideas...but it makes me think of the first car, the first airplane...that kind of thing.

The pic of the flywheel, crank, and angle iron...is just classic. This is cool.


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## cfellows (Oct 26, 2009)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> I'm enjoying this thread. It makes me think of the times...hm...I don't know quite how to say...when things began. It's not really true...ideas build on ideas...but it makes me think of the first car, the first airplane...that kind of thing.
> 
> The pic of the flywheel, crank, and angle iron...is just classic. This is cool.



Thanks, Zee. That's kind of the look I'm going for. Rustic, but not crude... Made with standard materials on hand, but carefully machined.

Chuck


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## rake60 (Oct 26, 2009)

Looking great Chuck!
I believe even Henry would be impressed by the improvements.
Thm:

Rick


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## Deanofid (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm excited about this one, and I'm not even building it! It has a high "neato" factor. I don't know what gives that to an engine, but I know it when I see it. 
Thanks for the build log, Chuck. It's going great!

Dean


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## 4wheels (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm still in awe!
Brian


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## cfellows (Oct 27, 2009)

Rick - Thanks for the comments. Hopefully the purists will agree with you!

Dean - Thanks! Drawings only work so far for me. I usually have to play with different parts to get it where I want it. That's why I keep photographing it with all the parts in place.

Brian - Thanks for the kind words... Thinkin about building one?

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 27, 2009)

Here's a video of the major parts assembled. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzByeuY_5kE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzByeuY_5kE[/ame]

Chuck


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## 4wheels (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi ,

Yes i would love to build one. Always wanted a hit and miss engine but they seem a bit complicated for a first effort into IC. I have a set of castings for a hot air engine which I must complete before starting an IC project but Henry's will be first on the list. Are plans available??
Cheers,

P.S. Nice video - runs very sweetly.


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## cfellows (Oct 27, 2009)

Thx Brian. There are drawings available for a full size Henry Ford engine. I bought them and at the time they were about 40 USD. Here's a link to a website with nice pictures of the engine and the address and phone number of the guy who sells the plans:

http://nbutterfield.com/e.aspx

My engine is half the size of the original and the head design is completely different. Also, I plan to use a Jan Ridders vapor fuel tank/carburetion system.

I will likely post drawings of my engine when I get close to finishing it.

Chuck


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## cfellows (Oct 29, 2009)

Worked on the large cam gear today. When done the hub of the gear will be shaped into a cam profile. For the moment, it's still round.

This is the lump of cast iron destined to be the gear. It's about 1.6" diameter x 9/16" thick.







Here I've shaped the hub and drilled the center hole.






Now I've begun cutting the teeth. A couple of different views.











And the finished gear. It's got 36 teeth and the diametral pitch is 24.






Next step is to cut the cam profile in the hub using a boring heard.

Chuck


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## 4wheels (Oct 30, 2009)

Coming along very nicely. Thanks for the plans ref. Not urgent for previous mentioned reasons so will wait and see what you may produce. I see the changes you made headwise - quite a design change indeed. I like the look of your changes thus far.
Look forward to the next installment.
Cheers,
Brian


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## cfellows (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm taking a temporary detour on the course of this engine. I've decided to make it run on compressed air using my slave valve design so it will still be a 4 stroke in operation. In keeping with the simple design, I'm using some brass plumbing parts, notable a 1/8" brass tee, and a ball bearing inlet valve instead of the usual poppet valve. 

Here are a couple of pictures of the individual parts:






The short length of 3/16 brass rod with a 1/8" hole drilled through it will be soft soldered into the end of the brass tee. A 1/8" length of steel rod from the cam will pass through the hole and act as a push rod to unseat the ball bearing during the air inlet stroke. Air pressure will reseat the ball when the inlet stroke has passed.






Here is the valve assembly attached to the head which is made from a 1 1/4" diameter length of cold rolled steel. 






I will also continue to work on completing the engine to run on internal combustion. However, I'm taking a different approach on the valves. Instead of overhead valves, I plan to attach a valve block to the side of the head, similar to the compressed air version.

Chuck


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 4, 2009)

Very nice work as usual.

Gear cutting is one of those feared gray areas for me.

Keep up the great posting.

Seeing how you machine is helping me to learn.

-MB


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## Bill Mc (Nov 5, 2009)

Aww shucks! I was hoping to see this as a gasoline running engine when completed. - Billmc


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## cfellows (Nov 7, 2009)

Bill,

I'm not going to disappoint you. :'( The engine will ultimately be completed as an IC gas engine. I'm just taking a temporary detour to see it run under compressed air.

I've already designed and started building the valve box which will contain the intake and exhaust valves for gas operation. I'm departing from the overhead valve design to make it simpler.

Chuck


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## cfellows (Nov 7, 2009)

Some more progress and pictures. Over the past couple of day I made the primary cam gear and attached it to the crank. I also drilled the hole and installed a set screw in the crank frame to hold the secondary cam gear shaft. I completed cutting the cam profile on the cam gear today.

I used a rotary table and a boring head to cut the cam profile. The process, which I first learned of from Randall Cox (Open Column Six and Hoglett fame), is detailed below. 

Here's the setup. The boring bar is installed in the boring head to do an inside cut. The milling spindle will run in reverse. The boring head is set to cut a diameter of about 1 3/8".






Here you see everything in the beginning position. The boring bar is just touching the left side of the cam blank.






Here I've rotated the milling spindle 1/2 turn. Nothing else was changed. You can see that in this position, the boring bar is about 5/8" to the right of the cam blank.






Here, I've started cutting. The milling table is moved to the left, .020" at a time, and the spinning boring head is lowered completely through the depth of the cam blank. This picture is taken with the boring bar half way through the cut to show the cut profile.






In this picture, I've advanced the milling table .125" which will be the full depth of cut. The x axis of the milling table is now locked.






Again, you can see the position of the boring bar with the mill spindle turned 1/2 turn.






Now I've begun turning the rotary table. I turn the handle one full turn, which is 4 degrees, then lower the boring head to make the cut through the cam blank. You can see the profile of the cut in this picture.






And here is the completed profile. The rotary table has been turned approximately 240 degrees.






Finished cam






Cam gears temporarily installed.






Chuck


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## chuck foster (Nov 7, 2009)

looking good chuck..............thanks for showing the way you cut your cam lobe. i have always cut them in the lathe as per bob shores instructions.

chuck


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 7, 2009)

The gears looks great Chuck!

That's an interesting way to create a cam. The profile is somewhat different than the the ones I have seen on previous builds. The transition is curved and a little more gradual.

-MB


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## cfellows (Nov 7, 2009)

The curve on the cam could have been flattened by increasing the radius of the boring head. However, as DIYMANIA says, performance isn't really an issue with this engine.

Chuck


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## 4wheels (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi Chuck,
Still here, still following, still think it's great. Keep it up.
Cheers, 
Brian


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## RobWilson (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi Chuck

This is a very interesting post ,,,great photo build showing the making of a cam :bow: :bow: :bow: 

Regards Rob


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## arnoldb (Nov 8, 2009)

Great progress Chuck !

Regards, Arnold


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## cfellows (Nov 8, 2009)

Got it running today, at least on compressed air. I'm hoping this is about what it will sound like when I convert it to internal combustion. Here, it's running on about 90 PSI. I have the cam dwell set extremely short, less than half the power stroke.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5D0F3UP7k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5D0F3UP7k[/ame]

Chuck


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## black85vette (Nov 8, 2009)

Very nice. Love the looks and the sound. I am going to have to start looking for pieces that will work for one of these.


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## vlmarshall (Nov 8, 2009)

Oh man, that sounds great! :bow: Hmmm.... Plumbingitis?


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 8, 2009)

Very cool! Mesmerizing to listen to.
But no fair just as I'm off to bed...I'm going to have that sound in my head all night!


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## cfellows (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks for the interest and comments. Without letting any grass grow, as it were, here are the plumbing parts that will become the valve body. Its a standard, 1/8" brass plumbing tee, two 1/8" brass plugs, and a brass nipple. Bought these at Home Depot a couple of days ago, so they are standard, off the shelf items.












The intake valve and exhaust valve will be fit into the brass plugs. As you can see, the plugs are already hollowed out as bought. The valve seat will be cut in the end and the valve stem will extend through a hole drilled through and out the square end. The top 1/3 (or perhaps /2) of the squared end will be rounded off for the valve spring to fit over.

Once the valves are fitted to the plugs, they will be securely screwed into the opposite ends of the brass tee. Holes will then be drilled and tapped through the side of the brass tee and through the side of the plug into the void behind the valve. A threaded brass pipe, probably 1/4" diameter, will be screwed into each of the holes. One will be the intake tube and the other will be the exhaust. 

The brass tee, using the nipple in the hole on the side, will be screwed into the side of the head. The exhaust valve stem will extend back toward the cam and the intake valve will, of course, be on the other end. The spark plug will be threaded into the face of the head.  Instead of a carburetor, I'll be using Jan Ridders' vapor fuel tank. Simple and elegant, eh? We'll see...

Chuck


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## cfellows (Nov 9, 2009)

Got the valves made today and made the modifications to the 1/8" brass plugs. The valves were turned from 5/16 drill rod and have 1/8" diameter stems. The ends of the valve stems were grooved with a dremel cutoff blade to hold the e-clips:






Here you can see the changes made to the plugs. Part of the square end was turned down and will go inside the valve spring. A 1/8" hole was drilled through for the valve stem. And, the bottom end was chamfered at 45 degrees for the valve seat. Not sure how well these brass valve seats will hold up, but cast iron plugs are also available if they need to be replaced.






Here you can see how more or less how the valve block will go together (It was probably already obvious to everyone and I am just being pedantic!).






Still have to fabricate the valve keepers and fit some springs. And, I have to start thinking about yet another cylinder head (number 3).

Chuck


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## Deanofid (Nov 9, 2009)

Interesting use of available fittings, Chuck.
I've never used brass for valve seats either, but have used aluminum, and it worked fine. That engine with aluminum seats has about 10-12 hours on it with no problems. Seems like brass would be a better material for them than al, being a somewhat sturdier stuff.

Then engine sounds great running on air! Besides it's use as primary power, like in your other engines, it also looks like a good proof of concept driver. (I'm excited to see it run on gas, too!)

Dean


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## Bill Mc (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi Chuck - Just being Ped______ What??? You are doing just fine. Keep those progress photos coming in. - Billmc


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## cfellows (Nov 14, 2009)

Today I made the new head for IC operation. Here you can see the head, with valve block assembly, attached to the cylinder. Decided to spiffy this one up a bit and counter bored the heads of the socket head cap screws. I'm also going with a larger, 10mm CM-6 spark plug in this design since they are cheaper and a little more robust than the 1/4 x 32 model plugs.






Here's the side view. You can clearly see the valve stems and e-clips in this picture.






Chuck


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 14, 2009)

Beautiful work.


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## RobWilson (Nov 14, 2009)

Some very fine engineering Chuck :bow: :bow: :bow:

Rob


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## 4wheels (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi Chuck,

Not a lot more I can say but loving the new part of the build and following still very closely. Keep it going.

Cheers,
Brian


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## Tom T (Nov 15, 2009)

Hi Chuck thanks for sharing this with us. This is great work and I like the way you built the cam. I have all ready tried it and it works good. :bow: Tom


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## cfellows (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks, again, everyone for the interest and comments. Sure hope I can get this thing running on fuel. I plan to start the Jan Ridders vapor fuel tank next. Got a bid in on some pocket watch crystals on Ebay for the site glass.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 15, 2009)

Diymania  said:
			
		

> I thought it was spelled "sight" glass, not "site" glass. :-\


Jeez!!! Picky, picky, picky. you're a hobby machinist and an english professor, right??? ;D ;D ;D


----------



## cfellows (Nov 15, 2009)

Yeah, you're right, it should be sight... 

Chuck


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## 4wheels (Nov 15, 2009)

Who cares - site ,sight - we all new what you meant.

Anyway I don't have a clue how these pocket watch crystals are going to work as site glasses. Can you explain in 15 words or less? Do the crystals have holes in the centre or just a depression to take a pivot? Why crystal - why not any old chunk of glass?

Hope you are lucky with the watch(es).
Cheers,
Brian


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## bearcar1 (Nov 15, 2009)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Jeez!!! Picky, picky, picky. you're a hobby machinist and an english professor, right??? ;D ;D ;D



Naw, Brian, he's just a fireman in training.  :big: :big: :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid (Nov 15, 2009)

Diymania  said:
			
		

> I thought it was spelled "sight" glass, not "site" glass. :-\



Don't make me go and spell check every post you've ever made, pal...


----------



## Tin Falcon (Nov 15, 2009)

Hey guys keep it light here!!! We are all human this is shop class and not English. An if you start criticizing others work you will hear about that as well .This board will not be degraded with grade school banter. 
Tin


----------



## vlmarshall (Nov 15, 2009)

4wheels  said:
			
		

> Anyway I don't have a clue how these pocket watch crystals are going to work as site glasses. Can you explain in 15 words or less? Do the crystals have holes in the centre or just a depression to take a pivot?



Like this! 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg58355#msg58355

or, this...
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg58376#msg58376


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## cfellows (Nov 27, 2009)

Well, for those who had almost given up on this project, I'm back. Got side tracked by a project by SWMBO... installing a new tile backsplash in the kitchen. As Red Green would say, if you can't be handsome, at least be handy!

Here is the finished Jan Ridders style fuel tank and and mixer. It's made from a piece of copper pipe 1 5/8" in diameter and 2 1/2" long. This is the mixer end.







And here's the other end. You can see the pocket watch crystal in the end. It's not glued into place yet. That will have to wait until dead last.






This little hoody doody is the piezo electric igniter out of a discarded butane lighter I found lying in the gutter a number of years ago. Still generates a spark. I'm hoping this will replace the points, condenser, coil, and battery. 






If this all comes together like I'm hoping, I should be pretty close to showtime. Just have to rig up the igniter to work off the cam gear and make a few other final touches. Of course, it will probably take a lot more work than I imagine, because I'm not real confident that the igniter will fill the bill. Several other "features" are kind of iffy as well.

Chuck


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## Deanofid (Nov 27, 2009)

The fuel tank looks really nice, Chuck.
What type (brand) of glue do you use to adhere the glass to the inset in the tank?

Dean


----------



## Powder keg (Nov 27, 2009)

Great job on the tank!!! I'd never thought of a crystal for a sight glass. I like it)


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## cfellows (Nov 28, 2009)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> The fuel tank looks really nice, Chuck.
> What type (brand) of glue do you use to adhere the glass to the inset in the tank?
> 
> Dean



Super Glue according Jan Ridder. I went one better and used super glue gel to fill any small voids. I'll test it tomorrow to see if it leaks.

Chuck


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## Deanofid (Nov 28, 2009)

"Super Glue"

Neat. Thanks Chuck. Didn't know that stuff was fuel impervious, but I'll bet Jan Ridder knows.


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## 4wheels (Nov 30, 2009)

Hi Vernon,


			
				Vernon  said:
			
		

> Like this!
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg58355#msg58355
> 
> or, this...
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4922.msg58376#msg58376



Thank you for your response. I was getting 'Crystals' and 'Jewels' mixed up - another senior moment!  Makes a lot of sense now. Thanks.

Cheers,
Brian


----------



## Troutsqueezer (Dec 1, 2009)

Like others here, being somewhat new to this hobby I find following along on these builds is highly educational and this thread is no exception but with each build I follow, I do so with some trepidation. To put it plainly, each build thread I follow, costs me money. 

From the photos and descriptions I can see clearly how certain tasks are done but what I also see is equipment being employed which I don't yet own and which may or may not be required for me to complete that task. Even if there is a work-around to get the job done, if I don't own that particular tool I will want it anyway because I can see how it makes the job easier. 

Now I have to get myself a boring bar that will handle a radius of that size, a dividing plate, gear cutting blades, arbors...the list never ends.  

-Trout


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## cfellows (Dec 1, 2009)

Yeah, it's a balancing act. FYI, my boring head is home made. The carbide boring bars were pretty inexpensive and I've had them for a long time. Rotary tables, in my opinion, are well worth having for a number of different tasks. And, unfortunately, they aren't cheap. I think I paid $150 or so for my 6" rotary table and that was several years ago.

I always try to build tools that I can and buy those that are either more work than I want to go through or are, in the end, probably not much more expensive than building my own. The rotary table was a case of both.

I have made the mistake, numerous times, of buying something I thought would be useful only to have it wind up on the bottom shelf collecting dust. And, I'll probably do it again!  :big:

Chuck


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## NickG (Dec 3, 2009)

Nice build chuck! I've just found this but will be watching the closing stages. When I make an i.c. engine one day I was planning to use the petrol vapour carb too. Do you think it'd be possible to incorporate a throttle body into the design with the vapour carb?

Nick


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## ariz (Dec 3, 2009)

very nice engine, and beautiful fuel tank too!!!

I wish to be able to make a tank like your for the scuderi engine (jan ridders design) that I'm making :


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 6, 2009)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> As Red Green would say, if you can't be handsome, at least be handy!



So I should be getting handier as I get older. As a matter of fact...I should be real handy already.



			
				Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> To put it plainly, each build thread I follow, costs me money.
> 
> Even if there is a work-around to get the job done, if I don't own that particular tool I will want it anyway because I can see how it makes the job easier.
> 
> Now I have to get myself a boring bar that will handle a radius of that size, a dividing plate, gear cutting blades, arbors...the list never ends.



Yeah. That's been my world since I started this last February. But be careful in saying that. You'll get several notable characters bugging you to make your own tools. It happened to me and now my 'tool to-do' list is longer than my 'engine to-do' list. If someone mentions 'D Reamer' to you...they might be one of them. :big:

I too am looking forward to seeing the whole thing. It's certainly a display piece.


----------



## mklotz (Dec 7, 2009)

> Yeah. That's been my world since I started this last February. But be careful in saying that. You'll get several notable characters bugging you to make your own tools. It happened to me and now my 'tool to-do' list is longer than my 'engine to-do' list.



Just remember that it was tool making that distinctively marked the point at which humans separated from their ape ancestors. (Although I'll admit that I've met a number of amateur machinists where the separation doesn't seem to have been perfectly accomplished.)


----------



## vlmarshall (Dec 7, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Just remember that it was tool making that distinctively marked the point at which humans separated from their ape ancestors. (Although I'll admit that I've met a number of amateur machinists where the separation doesn't seem to have been perfectly accomplished.)



 Rof} :bow:


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Dec 7, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> Just remember that it was tool making that distinctively marked the point at which humans separated from their ape ancestors. (Although I'll admit that I've met a number of amateur machinists where the separation doesn't seem to have been perfectly accomplished.)



Not me! I don't think we've met. Right? I think that's right. :big:

In any case...these old opposable thumbs will soon be doing some opposing (instead of the short sideways movements to the space bar that they're used to). ;D


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## mklotz (Dec 8, 2009)

No, Zee, that wasn't aimed at you. (BTW, glad to see you posting again.) 

Hmm, early man, toolmaking...I feel an anecdote coming on.

When I was in college we used to devise mental games to sharpen our perception and analytic ability.

One was: Name an object that is totally useless. (Certain weight-based "uses" such as doorstop and anchor were exempted.) The game then was, of course, to think of uses for said object.

Another was: If you were abandoned on a deserted island and could have only one hand tool, what would you select? Amazingly, most of the smarter people ended up selecting the modern equivalent of the first tool to be manufactured by early hominids. Coincidentally, it is also the tool that most primitive tribesmen are willing to trade their most valued possessions for today.


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## zeeprogrammer (Dec 8, 2009)

I knew it wasn't...just having fun. ;D (Thanks for the welcome back.)

I like those kinds of games. Also...'what else can you use it for?'.

Hm...'axe'? or 'hammer'?

Wasn't it a hammer that the monkey, or rather ancestor, used in 2001? To beat other ancestors (monkeys)?

But poor Hanks used a skate blade as an axe on his island.

I'd want an axe. Don't know if that puts me in 'most smarter people' but I'll be happy to be in the other group...the 'some smarter people'. :big:


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## shred (Dec 8, 2009)

Depending on said deserted island, you'd want a sharp edge of some sort-- axe, knife, machete. The things pacific islanders do with machetes is pretty impressive.

Of course I know how to knap flint as well, which would be a plus, should there be any suitable stone around 



Anyway... isn't this thread supposed to be about a primitive _engine_


----------



## cfellows (Dec 22, 2009)

Been awhile since I posted on this. I been thinking and working on it as time permits, but I'm making it up as I go and that's not always easy for me. Anyway, here is the ignition setup. The small black thingy with the wire coming out is the piezo electric igniter module out of a small butane igniter used for lighting barbeques, etc. I have fastened a small ball bearing race to the cam gear which will actuate the igniter by pressing down on aluminum lever. I've got it firing right at TDC but do a have a little adjustment for timing with the adjustable screw at the tip of the lever. 






Chuck


----------



## Tom T (Dec 22, 2009)

Looking good Chuck . I'm glad to see some progress stay at it.  Thm: Tom


----------



## cfellows (Dec 22, 2009)

I am very close to a trial run. Have to run a ground wire from the igniter to the base of the cylinder, hook up the hot lead from the igniter to the spark plug, and fashion a push rod guide at the base of the exhaust valve. Also, I haven't tested the fuel tank for leaks, but I'll try to be optimistic about that until a test proves otherwise! If my energy holds out, I may be trying to start it later this evening or perhaps tomorrow morning. Got company coming tomorrow afternoon, and with all the Holiday hoopla, not sure how much time I'll have to spend on it. I sure hope it runs right out of the chute, but have to admit, I'll be really surprised if it does!

Chuck


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## bearcar1 (Dec 22, 2009)

Truly a fascinating piece of seat of the pants engineering there Chuck. Please do not wear yourself out over this project, save your energies for your guests and family, they are what is important at this time of year. The engine can wait a few more days, although I am anxious to see it fire off for the first time myself, maybe before the end of the year perhaps.(?) Have a great holiday and we will be watching out for any new developments.

BC1
Jim


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## cfellows (Dec 22, 2009)

Thanks, Jim. I did spend another hour and got everything hooked, although probably not in its final form. Put fuel in the tank and spun it up with my cordless drill, but didn't get so much as a burp. I am getting spark to jump to the tip of the plug which means it is firing inside the cylinder. However, it's apparently not getting fuel. This is my first experience with the Ridder's vapor fuel tank so I'm not real sure how to fiddle with it. I'm done with it for tonight, but do have a few things to try when time permits. I need to install a head gasket since I think I'm getting some leak around the head. I also need to check the valves to make sure they are seating properly. And, I need to make sure the intake valve spring is weak enough to let fuel in on the intake stoke.

I don't see any reason why the engine won't ultimately run, although I am a little worried that I don't have a high enough compression ratio. May need to bolt a lump of metal onto the piston to help raise the ratio. Anyway, more later...

Chuck


----------



## NickG (Dec 23, 2009)

Nice work Chuck and keep at it. I know how frustrating these non-runners can be! I think you'll be there once your fuel issue is sorted though. Can you see / hear the intake valve lifting?

Nick


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## cfellows (Dec 23, 2009)

I did a little more work last night. I extended the air intake on the Ridders Vapor fuel tank so the bottom is submerged in the fuel. When I turn the engine over, it is bubbling, so I know the intake valve is opening and at least some fuel and air is getting into the cylinder. I'm not at all familiar with the dynamics of the Ridder vapor fuel tank, so I've no way to tell how much fuel it's getting.

I'm pretty sure I'm getting spark, because I can get the spark to jump from the end of the wire to the tip of the plug pretty consistently. I'm really surprised that the engine is not firing at all, absolutely nothing. I wonder if the spark is just not hot enough? 

Hmmmm, very puzzling.

Chuck


----------



## Metal Butcher (Dec 23, 2009)

Hi Chuck. Good to see your projects progress and posts. 

Could it be low compression? Is your plug getting wet? This is probably obvious stuff, but I thought it worth a mention.

-MB


----------



## cfellows (Dec 23, 2009)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Hi Chuck. Good to see your projects progress and posts.
> 
> Could it be low compression? Is your plug getting wet? This is probably obvious stuff, but I thought it worth a mention.
> 
> -MB



Thanks for the suggestions, MB. No sign of the plug getting wet, but don't know if the Ridder vapor fuel tank will ever get that much fuel into the cylinder. I'm working on the compression angle right now.

Chuck


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## cfellows (Dec 23, 2009)

Not quite sure how to figure the compression ratio on this thing. Here's a schematic of the cylinder, head, piston, and "manifold". Volumes are shown:







The swept volume is .637 cu in. The remaining or unswept volume is .276 cu in. The total volume is .913 cu in. The ratio of unswept volume to total volume is 3.31:1. Is that the compression ratio?

Chuck


----------



## Metal Butcher (Dec 23, 2009)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Not quite sure how to figure the compression ratio on this thing. Here's a schematic of the cylinder, head, piston, and "manifold". Volumes are shown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could be. You can solve the problem by replacing the piston with a big dome if clearance will allow for it. Again probably pretty obvious, but worth a try?


----------



## vlmarshall (Dec 23, 2009)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> The swept volume is .637 cu in. The remaining or unswept volume is .276 cu in. The total volume is .913 cu in. The ratio of unswept volume to total volume is 3.31:1. Is that the compression ratio?


Yes!


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## cfellows (Dec 23, 2009)

If I need to increase the compression ratio, could make the piston longer by .138". That would take it to the top of the cylinder at TDC. I could, as MB suggested, also either put a dome or a top hat on the piston so it reached up into the void in the head.

However, I don't really think compression ratio is the issue. Non compression engines fire just fine, and this engine is not firing at all. I'm either not getting enough fuel, or the spark isn't hot enough. Or, possibly, the fuel mixture is being drawn down into the cylinder on intake and doesn't get pushed all the way back up to the spark plug gap on the compression stroke. The latter seems like kind of a reach, however.

I would fabricate a normal carb system, but that would be a lot of work. Maybe I could adapt one of the model engine carbs I have in my parts drawer. If push comes to shove, I can convert the ignition over to points & coil. I have both.

Chuck


----------



## Tom T (Dec 23, 2009)

Hi Chuck Usually when I have trouble wih one of my engines it's because I have a compresion leak rings or valves but I always seem to look at fuel and spark first.

 I think your compression ratio is ok. I have a modle reed engine that I run with out piston rings. But to get it to run I have to heat the cyl. up with a propane torch. You might try that. Also my non compression engine won"t run on liquid fuel I use LPG. 

Stay at it you will get it.  Be sure and post a video of it running if you can. Have a Merry Christmas  Tom


----------



## NickG (Dec 24, 2009)

Chuck,

Couple of points that may or may not help but my thoughts - 

I personally think your compression ratio is low. Jan normally aims for about 5 - 6:1 and he designed the vapour carb / tank. So we know that's what it works with. But it seems a few people are saying you don't need it that high.

By increasing the length of piston you are only increasing the ratio from 3.31 to 3.96.

The 2nd thing is the ignition system. Jan has used the piezo method a couple of times, but more often than not when reading his build logs, there tends not to be enough energy in the spark with a piezo. They take quite a bit of power to drive too, so a tim 6 hall effect circuit or similar may be better. Or if you can get some sort of motorbike coil and contact breaker.

Just a couple of thoughts or possible avenues to go down.

Nick


----------



## cfellows (Dec 28, 2009)

I have a video here which demonstrates that my Jan Ridder's vapor fuel tank, which I built for the Henry Ford plumbing parts engine, works as advertised. I disconnected the fuel tank and removed the carburetor from my hit n miss engine. Then I hooked up the Jan Ridders tank with a polyurethane tube that I just pressed into the cylinder head where I had removed the carb. It started on the first pull and never missed a lick. See the results for yourself:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaorOHJTLrY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaorOHJTLrY[/ame]

I do think I have found the real problem the plumbing parts engine isn't running. I'll elaborate in a subsequent post.

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Dec 28, 2009)

As you can see in the video in the previous post, I extended the air inlet tube in the Ridders vapor fuel tank so I could see if my plumbing parts engine was drawing fuel from the tank. And it was. However the engine was pushing air back out into the fuel tank as witnessed by the small geyser of fuel that spurted out of the filler cap on each compression stroke. 

So, I surmised, I must have a leaky inlet valve seat. Today, I lapped the valve against the seat and tried it again. Same thing, still getting air out the inlet pipe. Even when I used my fingers to hold the inlet valve closed made no difference. So, now, I've decided the air is leaking around the threads on the screwed in pipe plug which serves as the valve guide/seat. Gonna have to come up with a different design for the inlet and exhaust valve housing.

Chuck


----------



## NickG (Dec 28, 2009)

Nice trouble shooting Chuck. Sounds like you've got to the root cause, fingers crossed. The vapour carb seems to work a treat, good idea checking it out on your other engine, which is superb by the way.

Nick


----------



## gbritnell (Dec 28, 2009)

Hi Chuck, boy you've got that engine running great. I have the drawings for Jan's tank but have never built one. One of these days.
George


----------



## cfellows (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks, Nick, George. I gotta say it's all thumbs up for the Ridders fuel tank. No needle valve, no flooding, no choking... as Nick says, works a treat. I'm now in the process of replacing the fuel tank on my Hit n Miss engine with a Ridders design.

Chuck


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 28, 2009)

That fuel tank vapor setup works great, Chuck. Very good way to prove one part, and point the finger at another, too. 
By the way, your hit 'n miss runs wonderfully well!
I know you'll get this figured out. Count me among the cheering section.

Dean


----------



## Longboy (Dec 29, 2009)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> As you can see in the video in the previous post, I extended the air inlet tube in the Ridders vapor fuel tank so I could see if my plumbing parts engine was drawing fuel from the tank. And it was. However the engine was pushing air back out into the fuel tank as witnessed by the small geyser of fuel that spurted out of the filler cap on each compression stroke.
> 
> So, I surmised, I must have a leaky inlet valve seat. Today, I lapped the valve against the seat and tried it again. Same thing, still getting air out the inlet pipe. Even when I used my fingers to hold the inlet valve closed made no difference. So, now, I've decided the air is leaking around the threads on the screwed in pipe plug which serves as the valve guide/seat. Gonna have to come up with a different design for the inlet and exhaust valve housing.
> 
> Chuck


.........I'm reading your text here Chuck. I'm not sure that I got what you are describing here. My question is if that's a "air inlet tube" and you extended it below the fuel surface, are those bubbles coming back thru the fuel line or the fuel tank vent? If the fuel line, it may be drawing air through the valve guide/stem clearance. Give the guide a shot of WD40 when turning over engine and note any change in the bubbling.. ........If it is really not supposed to burp up back to the fuel tank I would try a one way vacuum valve in the fuel line. Found under the hood (or auto supply store) of any car from the '80's as part of their emissions control system and also washer fluid line. I'm not familiar with Jans vapor delivery..............but I like the idea as proven in your video!     Dave.


----------



## NickG (Dec 29, 2009)

Longboy, 

what Chuck said was it is pushing air back on the compression stroke which points towards a leaky inlet valve, but since the valve is shut at that point it's not the stem, and chuck has lapped the valve and seat so they are making a good seal. He has narrowed it down to the interface between the valve seat and housing. 

Good idea about the non return valve though. Jan's vapour fuel tank is quite an ingenious idea and information can be found here: http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/...damp_carburateur/dampcarburateur_frameset.htm

Sounds good, the only thing I wonder if anybody has tried it with a throttle butterfly?

Nick


----------



## cfellows (Dec 29, 2009)

Nick sums it up pretty well... thanks Nick. The latest Ridder design calls for the air inlet tube to end above the fuel level so that any accidental blowback into the fuel tank will not spew fuel out the air inlet tube. I only extended it down into the fuel so I could see if it was bubbling on air/fuel intake. I will likely shorten the tube now so that blowback from the engine will now spew fuel out of the filler cap. 

I also have a design in mind which will greatly simplify the additional air / fuel mixture adjustment.

Chuck


----------



## Longboy (Dec 29, 2009)

........Thanks Nick, Chuck. We await your application of thread sealer. With automatic intake valves controlled by atmospheric pressure, when the piston starts its compression stroke and the valve is returning to its seat, that short time period back to seat could be the bubbling source. It would only be visualized with a fuel line drawing vapor instead of being liquid filled and being below the tank surface as in the Hit Miss video. If this is the case and thread sealer makes no change.......gotta be the norm! 
    Your brass fitting opposed valve block assembly is a great innovation of ordinary hardware items. When this is proven and shown in a video it will be used by other modellers . I'm a little more interested in I/C this year and started with the valve block for the Joe Webster engine. A good choice for a newbee. If I could cut little 1/4 inch valves and finish this assembly, that helps my confidence. I have made the valve block and will continue. Its different than Stirling and I appreciate the build logs here...........now on to the Ridders web site!     Dave.


----------



## NickG (Dec 29, 2009)

Longboy,

Good point about the atmospheric inlet valve.

My next engine project (if I ever get a flame gulper working) will be an i.c. engine too and I was considering the webster. it was the first engine I found plans available on the internet for and I have only studied it and some of Jan Ridders engines in detail. I still like the webster. With a glow plug and a vapour carb it could be pretty simple to build - is a glow plug cheating though?!

Chuck, like wise, can't wait to see this beauty spring into life for the 2nd time, witha different fuel!

Nick


----------



## cfellows (Dec 30, 2009)

Theoretically, the spring on the inlet valve should close it somewhere near bottom dead center on the intake stroke. I don't get any blowback on my hit n miss engine with the ridders tank, so hopefully it won't be a problem on the plumbing parts engine. 

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Dec 30, 2009)

Well, yet another cylinder head. I decided to gussie it up a little bit by making this head out of brass. The valve block will be similar in construction to that used on the Wesbster Engine. 












Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Dec 30, 2009)

Got a little more work done on the valve block this evening. Here's a couple of exploded views of the assembly.











Chuck


----------



## NickG (Dec 31, 2009)

Looking good chuck, hope this method works out better, it looks it.

Nick


----------



## cfellows (Dec 31, 2009)

Finally got it to run, kind of. The video is uploading to YouTube as we speak. Here are a few photos taken after I took the video.

Closeup of the new valve block assembly with fuel tank hooked up and ready to go.






Front view of the whole engine:






And a side view:






Will upload the video as soon as it finishes processing on youtube.

Chuck


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 31, 2009)

It looks so neat and "ol' timey". The brass head is a surprisingly good contrast to plain cast iron.
Waiting for your video with great anticipation, Chuck!

Dean


----------



## cfellows (Dec 31, 2009)

It's in the photos and videos section:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=7604.0

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Dec 31, 2009)

Well, now the igniter has stopped working. So I'm going to make a few changes to see if I can make it run (a lot) better. I'm converting to points and a coil for the ignition. Then I'll remake the piston, first to get a better fit, and second, to make it longer to increase the compression ratio. 

Chuck


----------



## Deanofid (Dec 31, 2009)

I watched the vid, Chuck. Didn't know it was in the other section.
It's so great!

Dean


----------



## NickG (Jan 1, 2010)

Chuck,

That is absolutely fantastic - well done! I hope I can make something that good one day.

Nick


----------



## NickG (Jan 1, 2010)

Chuck, I have just noticed that the ligher I use for lighting my meths burners must have a piezo electric trigger. Do you think these would be powerful enough for an engine? When Iwas in the pound shop the other day I noticed that you can get about 10 for a pound!

Seems to have given up the ghost pretty quickly though, did you have any idea why? It would be nice as a sort of stand alone unit without a coil, battery etc.

Nick


----------



## Bill Mc (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi Chuck - Tickled pink to see this engine up and running on fuel instead of air. I still haven't taken the plunge and started my Henry Ford's First Engine (still have to order the special tubing for the cylinders and a few other bits and pieces), but your engine has me all fired up. Reading back on your posts it says that you have built Henry Ford's First Engine. If this is true is there any way that I could see some photos of it? Congrats and Happy New Year 2010 - Billmc


----------



## cfellows (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi Bill,

Must have been somebody else that built the original version. This plumbing parts engine is my first attempt, and it's not actually a replica since some of the parts are widely different than the original. I do have the plans for the replica and used them as a reference for scale, etc.

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Jan 16, 2010)

I've made about as many improvements to this engine as I can with it's current configuration. I installed points, a condenser, & a coil and now have a reliable spark. I also increased the compression by adding some length on to the piston and put in a larger O-Ring. It now has good compression, but just won't keep running, even though it does fire pretty consistently.

So, I've decided that it just doesn't have the power required to keep it running. The other problem is that it gets hot pretty quick since there is no cooling system. I'm probably going to have to make another cylinder setup using 3/4" plumbing parts instead of the 1/2" currently used. This will increase the bore from .65" to about .82" which would give me almost a 70% increase in displacement. I'm also going to have to figure out some kind of cooling system. Think I'm going to put this aside for now and concentrate on my opposed, 4 cylinder.

Chuck


----------



## ozzie46 (Jan 16, 2010)

Thats a good idea. Some times its good to put things down and take a breather. Sort of refresh the old gray matter. 

  Who knows maybe you'll figure it out in your sleep or working on another project. But I have no doubt that you will succeed. 

 Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow (Jan 16, 2010)

Chuck---Very good effort, and well docummented!! Congratulations. If you are going to consider a new, larger cylinder, with better cooling----give some serious thought to using an automobile master cylinder. The cylinder bore can be had in 3/4". 7/8" or 1" depending on which one you use, and the reservoir which holds the brake fluid can be filled with water to act as a cooling chamber, like the old hit and miss gasoline engines.---Brian


----------



## cfellows (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, couldn't back away from it just yet. Sometimes, when you know what needs to be done, you know how to do it, and you have the needed materials, you just jump in.

So, this is the next biggest size plumbing tee, a 3/4" whereas the old one was a 1/2". I turned a pocket (not sure if that is the right term) inside the tee to form a water jacket around the cylinder sleeve. Then I turned and bored a sleeve out of cast iron. The sleeve will be a press fit in the pipe tee. The bore on the new cylinder will be .812 whereas the old one was .650". The stroke will be the same. However the cylinder sleeve will not extend beyond the back of the tee like the old one since the new, larger tee is already as long as the smaller one plus the old sleeve. That should add to overal appearance. I never did like that short section of pipe nipple sticking out the back of the smaller tee. 

Here's the new, larger tee and cylinder sleeve:
















Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Feb 13, 2010)

You all may be justified in thinking I might have a mild case of Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. 

I got back to the plumbing parts Ford engine today. As posted previously, the small, 1/2" plumbing parts just wasn't giving me enough displacement to keep the engine running. So, I went up to 3/4" plumbing parts. The bore has been increased from .65" to .81" and the stroke remains the same at about 1.875". This increases the displacement from just over 10cc to almost 16cc. I think the larger tee also makes the engine look more balanced with the large flywheel.

You can see I've also added some brass plumbing parts to hook up a water cooling system since I'm anticipating this engine will run hot otherwise. 

 I loctite'd the cylinder liner into the plumbing tee tonight and tomorrow afternoon it should be set up enough for me to give the engine a try. If I can get'r goin', I'll post a video.






















Chuck


----------



## bearcar1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Very nice! Chuck. That is so neat looking and I'm sure it will run. Very nice!

BC1
Jim


----------



## Deanofid (Feb 13, 2010)

You're right, Chuck. It does look better proportioned with the larger "T" for a cylinder.

I'm glad you got to come back to this engine. It's a very appealing project.
Hope to see the MKII version running soon!

Dean

(edited fer bad spellin)


----------



## JRNYMAN2LMAYKER (Feb 14, 2010)

Any chance of posting plans once she is finalized?


----------



## NickG (Feb 14, 2010)

Does look more balanced and water cooling should allow it to run for a long time.

Nick


----------



## gbritnell (Feb 14, 2010)

Great work on the engine Chuck and like Dean said it has nice proportions now.
George


----------



## cfellows (Feb 14, 2010)

Thanks, everyone, for the comments. Stand by, the video is uploading to youtube as we speak...

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Feb 14, 2010)

OK, here's the video. Gotta figure out some way to throttle the engine. In the video I'm controlling the speed by setting the fuel mixture rich. Otherwise, it'll take off like a banshee. I've also got to get the water cooling hooked up since it gets pretty hot, quick.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaEv5CcXiOY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaEv5CcXiOY[/ame]

Apologies for standing in front of the camera for so long. I'll post another, better video when I get a few things tidied up.

Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Feb 14, 2010)

Really cool Chuck.
No apologies needed for being interested in your engine.


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Feb 14, 2010)

That long rod is AWESOME!.

You should get a 4' board and make that rod about 3 feet long. Wouldn't that look cool on the table at a show.


----------



## Deanofid (Feb 14, 2010)

That's great, Chuck!
Well worth the wait. Now I'm off to watch the video again.

Dean


----------



## Twmaster (Feb 15, 2010)

Sweet Chuck. I love the sound.


----------



## rake60 (Feb 15, 2010)

Sounds Great Chuck! :bow:

I have the purchased plans of the original design around here somewhere.
I like yours much better!

Rick


----------



## cfellows (Feb 15, 2010)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Really cool Chuck.
> No apologies needed for being interested in your engine.



Thanks, Zee, it's pretty easy to get wrapped up in these little mechanical marvels!



			
				stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> That long rod is AWESOME!.
> 
> You should get a 4' board and make that rod about 3 feet long. Wouldn't that look cool on the table at a show.



Thanks, Steve, I also like the old engines with the long rods. Probably why I like the old horizontal steam engines.



			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> That's great, Chuck!
> Well worth the wait. Now I'm off to watch the video again.
> 
> Dean



Thanks, Dean, I've watched the video several times myself (and I have the real thing to watch!)



			
				Twmaster  said:
			
		

> Sweet Chuck. I love the sound.



Thanks, TWMaster, it definitely sounds better than the first first IC Version.



			
				rake60  said:
			
		

> Sounds Great Chuck! :bow:
> 
> I have the purchased plans of the original design around here somewhere.
> I like yours much better!
> ...



Thanks, Rick, the original version had some quirky features to get around.

Chuck


----------



## Longboy (Feb 15, 2010)

.........That was the right solution Chuck, more CC's.   Really allot of flywheel for a half inch bore to turn. Here's an analogy to relate your engine to the automotive world! You swapped out a "283", put in the Big Block "427"............a 50% increase!  Dave.


----------



## Bill Mc (Feb 16, 2010)

Hi Chuck _ You have done a wonderful job on this engine build. Can't wait to see what you opt for next. - One of your fans - Billmc


----------



## cfellows (Feb 16, 2010)

Bill Mc  said:
			
		

> Hi Chuck _ You have done a wonderful job on this engine build. Can't wait to see what you opt for next. - One of your fans - Billmc



Thanks for the kudo's, Bill. Gotta finish up my opposed 4 compressed air engine, then, I'm not sure. Got a couple other unfinished projects I might get to, or one of the many ideas on the drawing board. 

Chuck


----------



## chuck foster (Feb 16, 2010)

nice running engine chuck :bow: :bow:

i like the bigger cylinder and the long rod is a nice touch.

thanks for the photo's and all the build info.

chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2010)

Chuck---I May have missed it somewhere, but what did you use for a piston ring? I am working on a Webster, and the chap who recently posted about the Webster used a viton o-ring....Brian


----------



## cfellows (Feb 24, 2010)

Hey Brian, I'm just using a black o-ring. Don't know what they're made of since I picked up a package of them at Lowes Home Improvement center. Probably PVC or whatever is commonly used for plumbing.

I'm using the same thing in my Hit n Miss engine and it has worked flawlessly for probably close to a year now. Of course, the hit n miss engine rarely gets more than luke warm.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks Chuck. Right now the finish on the inside of my cylinder is "as reamed". I do have a brake cylinder hone here (The kind with the 3 spring loaded abrasive arms that fits into an electric drill). I don't have a lap, and I'm not sure I'd know how to use it properly if I did have one!!!! Do I need to use the brake cylinder hone, or can I just leave the i.d. "as reamed"?---Brian


----------



## Troutsqueezer (Feb 24, 2010)

I like this thread a lot Chuck and of course I like the engine too. The effort you put forth to document and share is very much appreciated. I've copied it into Word to add to my growing collection of reference material. 

-Trout


----------



## wes (Feb 24, 2010)

Looks like its comeing right along. Were did you pick up the original plans?


----------



## kustomkb (Feb 24, 2010)

Great job Chuck!

That's a very cool engine.


----------



## cfellows (Feb 24, 2010)

Brian, I would suggest the brake cylinder hone at minimum. I usually use a flex hone like this...







Less chance of tapering the cylinder.  I also use them with water to take material off more quickly.

Wes, the original plans are available for about $40. I'll have to find the source. My design is a bit of a departure from the original.

Chuck


----------



## wes (Feb 27, 2010)

My design is a bit of a departure from the original

I like to add my own modifications too. 

Wes


----------



## cfellows (Feb 27, 2010)

Wes, have you posted pictures of your engine?

Chuck


----------



## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2010)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Brian, I would suggest the brake cylinder hone at minimum. I usually use a flex hone like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chuck. I've been using a nylon gun bore cleaning brush coated with a lapping compound. Sorta works to smooth up the cylinder bores on some of my builds. But I would like to try using the proper tool for a change of pace.

Were did you get your flex hone, and what grit do you use?

-MB.


----------



## cfellows (Feb 27, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Chuck. I've been using a nylon gun bore cleaning brush coated with a lapping compound. Sorta works to smooth up the cylinder bores on some of my builds. But I would like to try using the proper tool for a change of pace.
> 
> Were did you get your flex hone, and what grit do you use?
> 
> -MB.



MB, the flexhones I have don't specify a grit. I have them in sizes from 1/2" up to about 1.25" Here is a link to their website if you want to read more about them:

http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1

I think I bought all mine on Ebay. If you do a search on Ebay as of this writing, there are 322 available in all different sizes.

I like to use them with water. It cuts faster and gives a smoother finish. I usually hold the cylinder to be honed with one end submerged in a bucket of water. I spin the hone with an electric drill moving it up and down far enough that the abrasive partly exits each end of the cylinder. On the bottom trip it picks up water from the bucket and pulls it back up into the cylinder clearing out the abrasive and ground cylinder particles. Since each of the little abrasive balls is suspended on the end of a wire, you don't have to worry as much about tapering the cylinder by running the abrasive out each end.

Also, I've used these hones to remove a slight taper from a cylinder. Just run it longer in the smaller end of the taper.

Don't run the hone too long between inspections. It removes material pretty fast!

Chuck


----------



## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Chuck, for providing all that information. I did look on E-Bay and only saw a few. I guess I used the wrong key words. I'll try again. The water idea sound like a great way to avoid a messy clean up. I imagine a bit of dish soap would work too. Rinse and repeat.

-MB


----------



## cfellows (Feb 27, 2010)

MB, search the ebay site using flex-hone as the search word.


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## BigBore (Feb 27, 2010)

................with out the dash. Just use flex hone.


----------



## Metal Butcher (Feb 27, 2010)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> MB, search the ebay site using flex-hone as the search word.



Thanks Chuck.

Yep, that worked. I found a seller that has all of the grit sizes in the 1/2" size hone I'm looking for. A bit pricey to buy all the differ ant grits available, so I guess 240 might be a good choice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-2-...Z370249302235QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

-MB


----------



## BigBore (Feb 27, 2010)

Very cool-tool, Chuck. Let's say one wanted to hone a .750 cylinder. What size flex hone would one use? Do you use the size of the end dimension or do you go a bit larger and just push in the hone and let it eat? I guess I'm thinking along the lines of cleaning a test tube. If the tube is .750 you could use any brush that was larger than the tube. A larger brush, within reason, just means that the bristles push harder against the side of the tube.

Ed


----------



## Kermit (Feb 28, 2010)

BigBore  said:
			
		

> Very cool-tool, Chuck. Let's say one wanted to hone a .750 cylinder. What size flex hone would one use? Do you use the size of the end dimension or do you go a bit larger and just push in the hone and let it eat? \...
> 
> Ed



The hone would have balls on wires and the length of the outersurface from the axis would be 1/2 the cylinder; .375"

If your hand held drill deviated even .001" from the center line of the cylinder you would only be cutting along an arc of the cylinder and it would quickly become some other shape than round.  ;D

You should use a somewhat larger hone than the bore you want. The amount of excess, within reason, will determine how much 'wander room' you have using the hand held drill.  SO if you use a hone that will just barely achieve the final dimension. you should use mucho control - as in a drill press set up. DAMHIK  :-[


Kermit


----------



## Metal Butcher (Feb 28, 2010)

Ed, If you cylinder bore is 3/4" you would need a specified 3/4" Flex Hone tool.

There's no guessing at/or picking an oversize tool. They are already a calculated size to properly match your bore size. They are available in fractional and metric sizes.

Below is a link that will further explain, and answer any additional questions you may have.

http://www.flexhone.com/flexhone for cylinders.htm

-MB


----------



## cfellows (Feb 28, 2010)

Yeah, what MB said.  Use the specified size for your bore. I've used these on bores up to .020" oversize and they still polish just fine.

Kermit, there doesn't seem to be much problem with deviation from center using a hand drill. They tend to hold themselves straight. I usually run them for 6 - 10 fast passes through the cylinder then inspect the work. Never had a problem with the bore getting out of round.

I've never used these for brass or aluminum, just steel and cast iron. They might work fine in brass or aluminum, I just never tried it.

Chuck


----------



## Kermit (Feb 28, 2010)

Okay, well. I'm getting more absent minded than I used to be, but I didn't think I was so far gone already.    The whole arrangement of balls on wires would 'droop' under the effect of gravity until it was up to speed in the drill. I could lower it into the hole and not touch the sides at all until I started the drill.  I'm really pretty sure about those aspects, at least as it applied to the contraption I was using. I'm currently very curious why there would be such a difference in 'stiffness' between the hones pictured and what I used.  Could I have picked up a tool that was meant for paint chipping or something along those lines and been mistaken assuming it was a cylinder hone?  

 ??? I'm starting to think I didn't start to think as long ago as I like to think!  8)


Kermit


----------



## wes (Feb 28, 2010)

Think I goofed!  ??? Tried to insert your quote and was just agreeing with you about making your engine different. Oops!

Wes


----------



## cfellows (Feb 28, 2010)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Okay, well. I'm getting more absent minded than I used to be, but I didn't think I was so far gone already.   The whole arrangement of balls on wires would 'droop' under the effect of gravity until it was up to speed in the drill. I could lower it into the hole and not touch the sides at all until I started the drill. I'm really pretty sure about those aspects, at least as it applied to the contraption I was using. I'm currently very curious why there would be such a difference in 'stiffness' between the hones pictured and what I used.  Could I have picked up a tool that was meant for paint chipping or something along those lines and been mistaken assuming it was a cylinder hone?
> 
> ??? I'm starting to think I didn't start to think as long ago as I like to think! 8)
> 
> Kermit



Kermit, the wires that support the balls on these flexhones is really stiff. Not only is there no drooping, but a fair amount of resistance to inserting the brush into the cylinder, even when it isn't spinning.

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Mar 28, 2010)

Here's another update. I got the S / S CDI ignition hooked up and working and I'm really pleased with the way it works. Compact and puts out a strong steady spark. The battery is external and will stay that way so I can just unplug it to stop the engine (Don't trust switches after all the Toyota malfunctions ;D)

This is the first test of the new throttling assembly I added. 

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=7931.0

Still needs a bit of tweaking, but I'm pretty happy with the results. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fa9QjAaSOs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fa9QjAaSOs[/ame]

Still gotta add a water cooling tank. I'm trying to come up with something that looks half way decent.

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Mar 28, 2010)

One more update and a picture.

First, I built another vapor fuel tank using a small pimento jar. Felt it was more appropriate for the scrounged parts look of the engine.







I also discovered a couple of other things. This engine and fuel tank combination doesn't require any fuel / air mixer. The mixture coming straight from the fuel tank seems to be perfect, at least at low RPM's. 

I also discovered that the engine can be throttled very effectively by restricting the air flow into the fuel tank. By hold my thumb part way over the opening I was able to slow the engine way down and it still ran fine. So, in the next day or two, I'm removing the throttle assembly from the intake manifold and building a throttle for the input to the tank. We'll see how that goes.

Also still have some finish work to do. I have to bore a recess in the wooden base to hold the fuel tank so it doesn't slide around. And I have to paint the bottom portion of the wooden base. I'm leaving the top and sides of the top board in a natural finish. By the way, that's blue masking tape around the top board in preparation for painting.

Chuck


----------



## chuck foster (Mar 28, 2010)

chuck you have built a very nice looking/running engine and you have put together a very good build log.
thanks for sharing this build :bow:

(the other chuck)


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Mar 28, 2010)

This engine and thread continues to pique my interest.
I've often thought that it would be neat to build it along with a complete car.
I'm not sure if you mentioned it earlier...what scale is this?
Thanks again Chuck.


----------



## cfellows (Mar 28, 2010)

aermotor8  said:
			
		

> chuck you have built a very nice looking/running engine and you have put together a very good build log.
> thanks for sharing this build :bow:
> 
> (the other chuck)



Thanks, Chuck, I appreciate the comments.



			
				zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> This engine and thread continues to pique my interest.
> I've often thought that it would be neat to build it along with a complete car.
> I'm not sure if you mentioned it earlier...what scale is this?
> Thanks again Chuck.



Thanks, Zee. The original Ford plumbing parts engine had a bore of about 1 5/16" and a 13" flywheel. Mine is about 15/16" with a 7 1/2" flywheel. So, I guess that makes it somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 scale.

On a side note, I don't think Henry Ford ever powered a car with this engine. This was just his first attempt at building an internal combustion engine. As far as I can tell, the first car had a 2 cylinder engine with a 2" bore and a 6" stroke. This is a video of a replica.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCrvsdmKAlE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCrvsdmKAlE[/ame]

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Mar 28, 2010)

Interesting development. I was tinkering with the engine a few minutes ago, to see how slow it would idle, and it will go really, really slow. However, I cranked on the throttle pretty fast to see if it would stall or accelerate. Well, the answer was, accelerate, so fast it bent the 3/16" diameter connecting rod. So now I have to build a beefier rod. I'll probably switch to a more traditional looking rod. I'm also thinking of making a new piston out of cast iron to match the cylinder. The engine gets hot pretty quick and the existing aluminum piston expands faster than the cylinder which cause everything to tighten up.






Well, at least I'm getting the bugs worked out!

Chuck


----------



## BigBore (Mar 29, 2010)

That's just a neat engine. It has the historical story of the engine, the use of plumbing parts, solutions to problems. alternative or additional techniques, and system upgrades/add ons. I have got to preserve this one for posterity. I had better get going as I'm already 13 pages behind.

Thanks a lot Chuck,I'm sure that this will be a winner and a valued addition to a lots of members personal files.

Ed


----------



## cfellows (Mar 29, 2010)

Except for painting the bottom of the base, I'm considering this project finished. I replaced the bent 3/16" connecting rod with a 1/4" rod and I think that will be plenty strong. I also added the cooling tank which works on convection. It seems to work well, although the engine get's pretty hot if I run it hard. Even idling, I think the run time will be limited to 15 or 20 minutes between cooling cycles. Luckily, I had all the plumbing fixtures in one of my pipe parts drawers. One final note, I did discover that the fuel level in the tank influences the fuel / air mixture. When the tank is 3/4 full, the mixture is too rich and I have to introduce some air.




































Chuck


----------



## doc1955 (Mar 29, 2010)

That's a beautiful piece of work!
Very nice very very nice! :bow:


----------



## Deanofid (Mar 29, 2010)

It sure has turned out nice, Chuck. Runs well, and has a lot of charm.
I'm sure this one will end up on my list. It has a great 'old timey' appeal.

Do you know what's causing the occasional banging sound? Sorry if that's kind of vague. Just wondering what it is.

Dean


----------



## Metal Butcher (Mar 29, 2010)

Congratulations Chuck! :bow:

Ive been lurking in the shadows, waiting for you to say "Its finished"!

I didn't want you to feel 'pressured'. ;D

I don't know how you do it Chuck. I just don't have the patients or imagination to develop a design the way you do.

Thanks for sharing your adventure!

-MB


----------



## cfellows (Mar 29, 2010)

doc1955  said:
			
		

> That's a beautiful piece of work!
> Very nice very very nice! :bow:
> 
> Thanks, Doc





			
				Deanofid  said:
			
		

> It sure has turned out nice, Chuck. Runs well, and has a lot of charm.
> I'm sure this one will end up on my list. It has a great 'old timey' appeal.
> 
> Do you know what's causing the occasional banging sound? Sorry if that's kind of vague. Just wondering what it is.
> ...



Thanks, Dean. I do know the banging sound you're talking about, but I haven't figured out what it is. I'm pretty sure it caused by firing at an odd time, but don't know why. The only thing I can think of is that it's firing again at the end of the exhaust stroke. Since the points are driven by the crankshaft, I get a spark every revolution... a proper one at the top of the compression stroke and another at the top of the exhaust stroke. 

Chuck


----------



## cfellows (Mar 29, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Congratulations Chuck! :bow:
> 
> Ive been lurking in the shadows, waiting for you to say "Its finished"!
> 
> ...



Thanks, MB. It certainly is an adventure designing an engine from scratch. The bad news is, you get to remake things a lot and it takes a heck of a lot longer to get it finished. And, there is always the fear that, in the end, it won't work at all. Luckily, I haven't encountered a lot of those.  .


Chuck


----------



## zeeprogrammer (Mar 30, 2010)

Fantastic engine and thread Chuck. Congratulations.
It's given me things to think about and I'm sure others have felt the same.
Thank you!


----------



## Maryak (Mar 30, 2010)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Fantastic engine and thread Chuck. Congratulations.
> It's given me things to think about and I'm sure others have felt the same.
> Thank you!



Me two, three and four. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## SAM in LA (Mar 30, 2010)

Chuck,

I like how you used odds and ends to build your Plumbing Parts Engine.

I learn so much from reading what you and the other very talented and creative people on this forum have done.

I just hope that I am able to retain even a fraction of what I have learned so I can apply it to a build of my own.

Thanks for sharing.

SAM


----------



## putputman (Mar 30, 2010)

> One final note, I did discover that the fuel level in the tank influences the fuel / air mixture. When the tank is 3/4 full, the mixture is too rich and I have to introduce some air.



Chuck, I have noticed the same thing. I also found that just the vibration from the engine running has some effect on the performance of the vapor carb. If I pick the fuel container off the engine base, so it doesn't vibrate so much, the engine settles down and runs better. The vibration must splash some fuel into the intake line and richen out the mixture.

Great job on the project. I hope to trace your build again and make one for myself some day.


----------



## CMS (Mar 30, 2010)

Turned out very nice, reusing and recycling what would otherwise be trash or junk to most people into a working piece of art is very satisfying.  :bow:


----------



## gbritnell (Mar 30, 2010)

Excellent job Chuck. When you fire them up for the first time is when you discover some of the shortcomings, like the connecting rod. Those vapor fuel tanks really work well for these type of engines. 
George


----------



## Deanofid (Mar 30, 2010)

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Since the points are driven by the crankshaft, I get a spark every revolution... a proper one at the top of the compression stroke and another at the top of the exhaust stroke.
> 
> Chuck



Make sense to me, Chuck. Thanks for the explanation.

Dean


----------



## Swarf Rat (Mar 30, 2010)

A very interesting engine. I especially like your changes to the original design.


----------



## cfellows (Apr 2, 2010)

Can't quite put this project to bed. The problem I'm having is that engine is eight-stroking. It doesn't fire every other revolution like it should, but rather every 4th revolution, which means it's missing. I know that at low RPM's, the engine must be running too lean because if I trying mixing any air into the line, it won't run. Unfortunately, I don't have any immediate way to make it run richer. The next step might be a copy of the carburetor from the plans uploaded by George Britnell.

Anyway, I've made some more changes. I moved the throttle off the manifold and onto the fuel tank. It's the socket head cap screw on top of the brass assembly:







The air / fuel mixture is adjusted with a sleeve next to the fuel tank (pimento jar) lid. Rotating the sleeve covers and uncovers a hole leading into fuel line:






I also replaced the points that were running off the crankshaft with a microswitch that now runs off the exhaust valve cam gear. Now it only fires on the compression stroke instead of every crankshaft revolution. This has eliminated the thumping or banging sound that the engine was making earlier. 

Here's the latest video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLzOjL4NIVc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLzOjL4NIVc[/ame]


----------



## Deanofid (Apr 3, 2010)

I know it's not quite what you're after, Chuck, but the 'eight stroke' situation actually sounds kind of nice. It pretty much makes nice mechanical noises all 'round.

It's been a little while since you first started writing about the gas vapor fuel tank/carb.  I think I remember you mentioning that it ran richer if the air pipe ran down into the fuel? Maybe that would make the mixture a little richer for you?

Dean


----------



## ghart3 (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm like Dean, liking the not firing every time. Not only like the sound but it makes for a cooler running engine with air being pumped through on the wasted cycles.
By the way Chuck, nice engine, I like it.     gary


----------



## BigBore (Apr 3, 2010)

_"Can't quite put this project to bed."_ 

I, for one, am ecstatic that this project continues to pi$$ you off motivate you.  This is one of those "everything you wanted to know about..." threads. Please keep going.

In my lab, I have a LP Bunsen burner with a sleeve valve that controls the amount of air in the gas mixture. It never adjusts the same way twice. It kept loosening up so I plugged the one hole with Hi-temp RTV. Could you make a smaller hole to start with or a series of very small holes instead of just the one through hole?

Howzabout two of your cool little throttles? One for fuel and one for air? Could they be milled/drilled into one block? Wow, am I a wanna-be or what?

Ed


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## cfellows (Apr 3, 2010)

I decided to post this here so it would be a continuation of the Plumbing Parts engine instead of the thread I started on the model carburetor. I had a full day to myself, so I set out in the shop to build a scaled down version of the carburetor from George Britnell's drawings. Then I took a look at what I had already built and decided, this isn't so different than George's design, maybe I can just make some changes to what I already had. 

So, first I had to plug up the bottom of the throttle body hole. I turned a small piece and drilled it with a #29 drill to be tapped later. Here's the carb body and the piece to patch the hole:











Well, that was easy, messy, but easy. Next I needed to turn off the bottom part of the throttle barrel since it would no longer extend all the way through the body.






So far, so good!






Next I needed to tap the new insert so I could thread in the needle valve seat. That's a 5-40 tap to accommodate a 1/8" threaded needle seat.






And here the needle seat is threaded into the bottom of the carb body.











And here it is mounted on the engine.






And here is the video. Runs much better, even though the adjustments are kind of finicky. I'm wondering if the engine would be less finicky if I made a slightly larger version of the carb. This one has a venturi bore of 1/8"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEeSkoBMZKg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEeSkoBMZKg[/ame]

Chuck


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## putputman (Apr 3, 2010)

Chuck, did you also add the bleed hole like George's design shows? You are really fine tuning that engine.

Are you using that new Canon digital camera for your videos? They are really clear at all distances. The sound is good also.


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## cfellows (Apr 3, 2010)

Thanks, Arv.

No, haven't drilled an air bleed hole. So far, I'm controlling speed by just not closing the throttle too far. Then I adjust the mixture. I really like the way it runs and sounds on the carb but the carb is presenting some of its own challenges. I can get it to run the speed I want it to, but am having problems getting it to run consistently. Also a lot harder to start with the carb than it was on just the vapor fuel tank. I think I'm going to try boring the venturi hole out from 1/8" out to 5/32" and see how that works. My goal is just to get it to start reliably and run at a medium idle.

Oh, and yes, all the pictures have been taken with the Canon SD780. By the way, these pictures are cropped then reduced to about 25% of the original size. Love that camera!

Chuck


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## kpate (Apr 10, 2010)

Chuck,

The carb looks real good and I'm liking the experimentation that you're doing with this engine. :bow:


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## Chaffe (Feb 15, 2011)

Amazing, just read this thread from start to finish. Im looking forward to doing something similar when i clear my feet of a few excisting projects! I too have a draw of half finished engines lol!


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## bearcar1 (Feb 15, 2011)

Chuck, I salute you!! I have followed along on your building of this fine example of model engineering from day one and have truly enjoyed the journey. I marvel at how you attack a certain problem and address it in logical steps and then are able to present your tribulations and successes in a concise understandable manner. BRAVO!! If the day ever arrives that I feel compelled to build one of these engines, yours will be the one that will be used as a benchmark. Terrific work, and thank you for sharing all of it with us.
 :bow:
BC1
Jim


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## cfellows (Feb 15, 2011)

Thanks for the kinds words. The nice thing about an engine design like this is that it's pretty modular and allows for experimenting with different parts without rebuilding the whole thing. I've had two nagging problems with this engine that I've never resolved to my satisfaction. One minor problem is the fact that the S&S ignition module fires on both the make and break of the points. That may not hurt anything, but I've always had the suspicion that the engine is sometimes firing off-cycle, if that's even possible.

The other problem is the difficulty of getting the engine to run without misfiring at low RPM's, like 400 RPM. I've not found a satisfactory carburetor for very low speed running. Maybe it's just the nature of real small bore engines.

Chuck


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## gbritnell (Feb 15, 2011)

Hi Chuck,
Boy I really like your engine. It sure runs nice. As far as the carb I wouldn't make the venturi any larger in fact if I was going to do anything I would make it a little smaller. With a slower running engine the velocity through the carb isn't as great as an engine that runs higher up in the rpm range so by going smaller you increase the velocity so therefore you get a better vacuum signal for the fuel. 
The purpose of the air bleed on these throttling carbs is to prevent the richness at idle speeds. You can adjust the needle to compensate but then when you open the throttle you also have to open the needle a little to match the air volume. 
George


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## drallen (Mar 16, 2011)

Hi Chuck
I have been reading this thread regarding the plumbing parts engine. Congratulations. I noticed you are using Flex hone. I have used these myself. For anyone wanting them they are also available from KBC tool at www.kbctools.com.
Dave


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## flyingtractors1 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi Chuck. I just stumbled on to this thread and found it incredibly interesting and informative. Nice engine. Great build - wonderful naratives and pictures. It is work such as this that makes this Forum so valuable, motivational and inspiring. Many Thanks to you and to others who shared wisdom here.  Ralph


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## doc1955 (Dec 9, 2011)

Chuck 
It's sounding pretty good! Nice job I sure like the looks of that engine! She sure revvs up nice!


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## cfellows (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks, guys. That's still one of my favorite engines. I keep thinking I might convert it to a hot bulb engine one day.

Chuck


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## Ken I (Dec 10, 2011)

Chuck, what a wonderful engine with so many creative features providing plenty of food for thought.
This thread was basically finished before I joined the forum and for whatever reason, I have not seen it before - read it from end to end - quite a ride.

Regards,
      Ken


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## AussieJimG (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks for the journey Chuck, I admired your engine when I saw it on YouTube and then stumbled upon this posting. Once I started reading, I couldn't stop.

Seeing you change direction and backtrack on some of the design gives me heart. Now I know that the experts do it too, I feel much better.

Merry Xmas and keep up the good work.

Jim


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## lazylathe (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi Chuck,

I was wondering what had happened with this build of yours!
Found out I missed the end by a few months....

Amazing work as usual and a very distinctive sound!!
Great work as usual and yet another totally unique creation from your workshop!!!

Andrew


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