# Lathe Tooling



## radar (Oct 7, 2016)

Hello everyone! 

Who do you all buy from? I am specifically looking for indexable tools for my lathe. I've checked out the usual suspects (Shars, MSC, Grizzly) but I wanted to see what else is out there. 

Also, QCTP holders- they are totally awesome but where else can I find them and not pay an arm and a leg for them? I really like the ones that also double as a cutting tool (#16? I believe) but again, from Aloris and the like the price is way out of my range. 

I had considered trying to DIY some stuff using the regular #1 tool holders. If anyone has tried this? I was considering trying to convert some HSS tool holders to work with a QCTP. 

Thanks all!


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## Gordon (Oct 7, 2016)

I have had pretty good luck with CME in the past.

http://cme-tools.myshopify.com/collections/quick-change-tooling


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## joco-nz (Oct 7, 2016)

Check out http://www.cdcotools.com

USA based as well.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 7, 2016)

radar said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> Who do you all buy from? I am specifically looking for indexable tools for my lathe. I've checked out the usual suspects (Shars, MSC, Grizzly) but I wanted to see what else is out there.


Auctions and model engineering shows can sometimes be real bargains.  Out of necessity I try to avoid retail pricing when it makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, I'd rather pay good money for taps that are sharp and of high quality.  There is nothing worst than a project delayed due to a broken tap.  


> Also, QCTP holders- they are totally awesome but where else can I find them and not pay an arm and a leg for them? I really like the ones that also double as a cutting tool (#16? I believe) but again, from Aloris and the like the price is way out of my range.


Well you can make your own.   Aloris is pretty cheap, you should see what Hardinge charges for a QCTP for the HLV series of lathes. 

I mention making your own because frankly the extremely low cost QCTP out there leave a lot to be desired.    Model engineers being very resourceful have come up with dozens of innovative designs for QCTPs.   Beyond that the QCTP has to fit your lathe.  


> I had considered trying to DIY some stuff using the regular #1 tool holders. If anyone has tried this? I was considering trying to convert some HSS tool holders to work with a QCTP.


We need some context here.   I have a QCTP for use on my 9x20 but it doesn't fit the compound well at all.  I have it on a shop made square block of steel.  


> Thanks all!




No problem.    Just remember all the parts need to fit your specific lathe.    Also; to get started learning the craft you really don't need a QCTP.   QCTP are in fact very handy but if you are just starting out there is no real advantage and frankly it really pays to learn early how it set up and use HSS tooling.


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## radar (Oct 7, 2016)

I've heard of CDCO before, I was just curious about what all is out there.

Wizard, this isn't my first rodeo with the lathe. I am in a live steam club that has two. I know how to grind HSS bits, cannot stand it at all. 
The lathe that I am buying is a Jet 1024 from the 70s? I believe.


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## radar (Oct 7, 2016)

Wizard, I really don't enjoy cutting HSS bits. If it's needed, I'll do it. But I cant stand it.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 7, 2016)

Wizard69 said:


> Auctions and model engineering shows can sometimes be real bargains.  Out of necessity I try to avoid retail pricing when it makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, I'd rather pay good money for taps that are sharp and of high quality.  There is nothing worst than a project delayed due to a broken tap.



As far as carbide insert tooling well there are many suppliers , I will try to add a couple of more: 1.  Kenneth Crosby, 2.  Grainger, 3.   Liberty Tool, 4.   Horizons Solutions, 5.  Abrasive Tool, 6.   Production Machining, 7.   Fastenal, 8.   Industrial Distribution Group, 9.   E&R Industrial (Grainger), and etc.    this list can go on for ages.    I would suggest looking into up you local situation first.  

Also these days there are manufactures selling direct.   Fire up your web browser and search around a bit.   


> Well you can make your own.   Aloris is pretty cheap, you should see what Hardinge charges for a QCTP for the HLV series of lathes.
> 
> I mention making your own because frankly the extremely low cost QCTP out there leave a lot to be desired.    Model engineers being very resourceful have come up with dozens of innovative designs for QCTPs.   Beyond that the QCTP has to fit your lathe.   Obviously once you have a QCTP base incorporating indexable tooling is only a new holder away.
> 
> ...


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## Wizard69 (Oct 7, 2016)

radar said:


> Wizard, I really don't enjoy cutting HSS bits. If it's needed, I'll do it. But I cant stand it.




I tried editing my post and sadly responded to my own post instead.  I added a list of suppliers some local to me others national.  

As for grinding HSS, I understand but sometimes it isn't cost effective in a home shop to do specialized carbide insert tooling.  That said I prefer insert tooling myself in many cases, especially for simple turning and milling.    It has been a long day at work and I missed the intent of your post initially.   Hopefully my replying to myself better gets at what you want.  

In the end there are so many sources for tooling that it isn't possible to list them all.   One approach is to find a manufacture of inserts you are interested in and use their web based distributor finder.    You may run into a problem with some vendors though as they may not be willing to sell to you without a business account.  Grainger is one example but that seems to vary by state.  

Personally when I have to I order from MSC or Travers.  Since I don't get a business discount I try to benefit from their sales brochures.  In the end if you need something you have to pay the price.  Frankly I've had good luck with both of these vendors.    We also use MSC and Travers a lot at work.    Mc Master-Carr is another big catalog company but they don't seem to be highly focused on the machining industry.


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## radar (Oct 7, 2016)

Thanks Wizard. 

Something I failed to mention- most of what I will be doing is machining live steam locomotives (16mm scale, Mamod sized roughly) and I was almost considering just buying a Taig mill and lathe and being done with it. 

Mostly because Taig is right down the road from me here in Arizona, but also because I have larger machines with my live steam club (I own a Lagun FTV1 that is literally too big for my garage- so it is with them) that is right down the street from me. 

I hadn't planned on making too many large steam engines, but smaller ones I had planned on going crazy with.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Oct 8, 2016)

90% of my swarfs are made by 2mm almost square carbide (Hardened steel,mild steel, stainless,bras,alu POM etc) in a home made holder.
It is about two minutes to regrind and put back on lathe.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=25950.

I still have some CCMTs on some homemade holders

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=10175

but have not used it for awhile.

For parting of see

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=10176

All three systems are miles more rigid (better) than any QCTP system and not very much slower.


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## GLCarlson (Oct 8, 2016)

I second Mr. Abildgaard's comments about tangential cutting. Whether shop-made or bought, the tangential holder eliminates all of the problems of making tool bits. A minute on the grinder, a bit of polishing, and back to making swarf. One face to grind. One setup for facing or turning. Mirror finish on most materials.

I cannot fathom why this design is not widely used and universally recommended, especially to those starting out. There are endless woeful tales about tool grinding and pleas for advice, while a simple, easy, and cheap solution is available.  M2 HSS beats carbide any day on price, and for most of us with less rigid machines is equal in performance. For 90% or more of my turning, a tangential cutter just works.


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## Niels Abildgaard (Oct 8, 2016)

Hello mr Carlson

Will You be interested in testing my 2mm square carbide plus holder compared to the best HSS you have?
If you tell me distance from top of compund surface to centerline I may have a holder.
If You also tell me Yor adress things go of monday.
Given same degree of tender loving care resharpening(2 minutes) carbide will be even with HSS all the time and more,but it is nice if it can be confirmed from a respected and independent source.
A 3mm round 65mm long ,polished carbide is around 2&#8364; and my almost square 2mm will be around 20 &#8364;.Best german


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## kuhncw (Oct 8, 2016)

Hi Radar,

You might also take a look at the indexible HSS tooling sold by A R Warner of Latrobe, PA.  http://www.arwarnerco.com/c-12-turning.aspx

They sell some 1/4 shank turning sets that would fit the Taig lathe you mention.

Chuck


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 9, 2016)

If you want a QCTP you will need to shop around a bit but don't let all the under-informed posts about them put you off buying something ready made. 
This is my RDG Tools branded copy of the Dickson QCTP with an indexable insert carbide tool taking two 5mm OD reduction cuts (2.5mm cut depth) on a bar of 30mm OD 304 Stainless steel with a rough cut end. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUI2GIGTz_c[/ame]

The tool post is mounted directly to the "woefully inadequate" Myford Super 7 Top Slide with the original Myford tool-holder bolt and nut from the scrap box. 
If you believe everything posted by proponents of "Magic Tool Posts and Holders" of all Stripes then this video shows the impossible, carried out using the improbable by the unreasonable ;-) 

 - Nick


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## DICKEYBIRD (Oct 9, 2016)

I have bought some tooling from this place lately and have been happy with it:  http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply/


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## radar (Oct 9, 2016)

Everyone has opinions probably based off of their experiences or someone elses. 

I won't really get into a twist unless I have a problem, then I will switch over. 
Will 5/16" bits work on a Taig?


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 9, 2016)

radar said:


> Everyone has opinions probably based off of their experiences or someone elses.
> 
> I won't really get into a twist unless I have a problem, then I will switch over.
> Will 5/16" bits work on a Taig?



I'm basing my Myford tests on the OPs' claim that rigidity is an issue on Myfords which can be addressed by Tangenitals ;-)


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## Wizard69 (Oct 9, 2016)

radar said:


> Everyone has opinions probably based off of their experiences or someone elses.


Most of those opinions are valid to some degree.    A common opinion I dismiss completely is that insert tooling isn't worth it in a small lathe. I strongly believe there is good reason to have a mix of technologies in ones tool box.   


> I won't really get into a twist unless I have a problem, then I will switch over.
> Will 5/16" bits work on a Taig?




This is one of those things that you can make in any style you want.   5/16" is pretty handy in size, not too big and not too small.   Admittedly largish for a Taig but usable none the less.  The only time size is a real problem is when grinding takes far longer for no real gain.


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## platypus20 (Oct 9, 2016)

The Aloris 16 (I have one) is not a great, but is an expensive tool, while using cheap inserts (TPG/TPU 321/322), the finish quality is below average. You would be better off using tooling that uses CCMT inserts.


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## radar (Oct 10, 2016)

Wizard69 said:


> Most of those opinions are valid to some degree.    A common opinion I dismiss completely is that insert tooling isn't worth it in a small lathe. I strongly believe there is good reason to have a mix of technologies in ones tool box.
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of those things that you can make in any style you want.   5/16" is pretty handy in size, not too big and not too small.   Admittedly largish for a Taig but usable none the less.  The only time size is a real problem is when grinding takes far longer for no real gain.



They are HSS bit holders. Considering that they are on sale I think that I might nab a set. The bit itself is 1/8".


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## abby (Oct 10, 2016)

I think I will keep my tangenitals well away from the lathe !


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## goldstar31 (Oct 10, 2016)

abby said:


> I think I will keep my tangenitals well away from the lathe !


 
Thanks for a bit of common sense.

As I see it, we are involved in the discussion about an obsolete lathe and attachments which in a real world only equate to a a tankful of diesel in my little car or two sets of sausage and mash in a fairly indifferent London restaurant.  

Life for some of us, is not quite so trivial.

Norman


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## radar (Oct 10, 2016)

kuhncw said:


> Hi Radar,
> 
> You might also take a look at the indexible HSS tooling sold by A R Warner of Latrobe, PA.  http://www.arwarnerco.com/c-12-turning.aspx
> 
> ...



Kuhn, I found a nice set that is 5/16ths. Would I simply need to shave a little bit off the bottom- or would they likely be fine as is?


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## kuhncw (Oct 10, 2016)

radar said:


> Kuhn, I found a nice set that is 5/16ths. Would I simply need to shave a little bit off the bottom- or would they likely be fine as is?



Radar,

The 5/16 set should be fine and more ridgid than 1/4 inch.  The tool holder that comes with the Taig lathe will accept 5/16ths with some room to spare.

Chuck


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## radar (Oct 12, 2016)

Alright this is going to sound stupid- but is I am starting to really notice a pattern here: 

Micro-Mark and Harbor Freight clearly are selling some of the same products but one of them, the one from New Jersey, is clearly price jacking the same products.


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## GLCarlson (Oct 12, 2016)

Niels Abildgaard said:


> Hello mr Carlson
> 
> Will You be interested in testing my 2mm square carbide plus holder compared to the best HSS you have?
> If you tell me distance from top of compund surface to centerline I may have a holder.
> ...



Mr. Abildgaard,

I have been a tangential user for many decades; your designs are excellent - though I use a different holder, and much prefer the 6 mm size. Carbide in a tangential is unquestionably better than HSS; but HSS is cheap! I have no doubt that carbide in a tangential holder will be the best option. Regrettably, I have no way to sharpen (don't have the right wheel). So I can't easily do a comparison.

I think the outcome is not in doubt. Perhaps we should encourage another -less evangelical- member to do the testing?  !


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## radar (Oct 12, 2016)

Oh, I have something I forgot to mention: 

Aside from the obvious (mill and lathe) for work on smaller models and the like I will be making, I was considering the following:

-1" wide belt sander
-6" grinder
-buffer
-band saw
-1/2 ton arbor press
-hand tapping machine 

Now, what kind has me scratching my head a bit with this whole matter is this: for small live steam engines and other small projects in general, is some of this over kill? If I were to get my hands on a vertical band saw could I get away with rewiring a wood cutting band saw to work for metal? Will a three jaw chuck work to hold taps well enough- or should I look into something else? 

The big one that really has me wondering though is this: 
Is it just me or does it seem like Micro-Mark sells a lot of stuff that I could buy from Harbor Freight (to the point of it being exactly identical) for much less?
I apologize about bombarding this place with questions.


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## kuhncw (Oct 12, 2016)

radar said:


> Oh, I have something I forgot to mention:
> 
> 
> -hand tapping machine
> ...



I'll let someone else answer the band saw question.  As to the hand tapping machine, opinions will vary, but I do all my tapping in the mill or in the lathe.  I've drilled the hole in either the mill or lathe, so why not tap the hole while you are on location.  I've not felt the need for a hand tapping machine, because of where I do my drilling. 

Rather than a three jaw chuck, I'd suggest a tap wrench with a sliding pilot.  Some are spring loaded, but then you have the spring loading the tap.  Ok for larger taps, but not so good for 2-56 etc.  There are designs for sensitive home built tap holders/wrenches out there.  Again, I'm speaking of tapping in the lathe or mill.

No need to apologize for asking lots of questions.  That is how we learn and how new ideas turn up in the forum.

Chuck


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## radar (Oct 12, 2016)

kuhncw said:


> I'll let someone else answer the band saw question. As to the hand tapping machine, opinions will vary, but I do all my tapping in the mill or in the lathe. I've drilled the hole in either the mill or lathe, so why not tap the hole while you are on location. I've not felt the need for a hand tapping machine, because of where I do my drilling.
> 
> Rather than a three jaw chuck, I'd suggest a tap wrench with a sliding pilot. Some are spring loaded, but then you have the spring loading the tap. Ok for larger taps, but not so good for 2-56 etc. There are designs for sensitive home built tap holders/wrenches out there. Again, I'm speaking of tapping in the lathe or mill.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you sir- what about the rest I had mentioned? Anything seem like over kill to you?


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## kuhncw (Oct 13, 2016)

Radar,

I think the belt sander, grinder, press, and band saw will all be very useful. For the work you intend.  

Slowing down a wood cutting band saw should work for cutting soft and/or fairly thin metals.  I'd still prefer a metal cutting band saw as it would be much faster on larger barstock.  There are some nice bench top band saws available.  

Chuck


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## Wizard69 (Oct 13, 2016)

radar said:


> Alright this is going to sound stupid- but is I am starting to really notice a pattern here:
> 
> Micro-Mark and Harbor Freight clearly are selling some of the same products but one of them, the one from New Jersey, is clearly price jacking the same products.




Possibly, but this isn't always clear.   For better or worst I purchased my 9x20 lathe from Harbor Freight, it is OK, but after viewing a machine in Grizzly's show room I'd say that the Grizzly was of better quality.  Now take the drill press I bought from Grizzly and you could chuck it in the trash for all I care.   There is significant differences in machine quality even from the same vendor like Grizzly.   Likewise some of the crap Harbor Freight has in their show rooms is beyond belief.     

In a nut shell it is pretty hard to make a blanket statement here.  Micro-Mark has for example a very interesting lathe offering.  How you value the combo of features is up to you.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 13, 2016)

radar said:


> Oh, I have something I forgot to mention:
> 
> Aside from the obvious (mill and lathe) for work on smaller models and the like I will be making, I was considering the following:
> 
> ...


At least one of the two above is required as eventually you will need to sharpen HSS tooling. Both have their advantages 


> -buffer


You could use the bench grinder as sort of a stand in for a buffer.   If you like shinny models though I guess a buffer is required.  I'd probably go with a tumbler first.  


> -band saw


Not required by any means but a huge convenience. 


> -1/2 ton arbor press


Such presses cam be very useful but if I was to buy an arbor press I'd most likely go larger.  


> -hand tapping machine


This is something you can make.  Frankly this and even some of the machines above are good DIY candidates.  Practice on none models leads to broader skills development.  


> Now, what kind has me scratching my head a bit with this whole matter is this: for small live steam engines and other small projects in general, is some of this over kill?


Well if you catch the tool bug the answer is no.   On the other hand some of the tools above, such as the bandsaw, take up a lot of space.   


> If I were to get my hands on a vertical band saw could I get away with rewiring a wood cutting band saw to work for metal?


I'm not sure what you mean by rewriring.  There is a massive difference in SFM (Surface Feet per Minute) between a wood working machine and a metal cutting one.  This means that you need a form of gear reduction to retask a wood working machine.  This is another DIY project. 


> Will a three jaw chuck work to hold taps well enough- or should I look into something else?


Small taps maybe.  Here are a lot of crap chucks out there.  At some point thought drill chucks won't supply he torque required.  This usually isn't a problem in a model engineering shop though. 


> The big one that really has me wondering though is this:
> Is it just me or does it seem like Micro-Mark sells a lot of stuff that I could buy from Harbor Freight (to the point of it being exactly identical) for much less?


In some cases yes.   In other cases I suspect HF sells the seconds and screw ups.  


> I apologize about bombarding this place with questions.




Questions are good.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 13, 2016)

radar said:


> Thank you sir- what about the rest I had mentioned? Anything seem like over kill to you?




I might offer a slightly different view on a tapping jig.   As noted doing most of your tapping in a mill or lathe just makes sense.   However sometimes that isn't possible or for very small taps problematic.  At work almost any thing drilled in a mill, drill press or lathe will have the taps at least started in that machine.   Sometime tapped under power and sometimes with hand tools and alignment aids.   I can sometimes be reluctant to do so with real small taps though.  

I wouldn't totally dismiss a tapping stand but it should be your first consideration for a tapped hole.  If the stand supports other functions like the common pillar tool designs then it might be easier to justify.  You are back to DIY as flexible commercial units apparently don't exist.


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## Wizard69 (Oct 13, 2016)

Forgot the most important thing, you don't need to get them all at once.   In fact that might be a bad idea.


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## goldstar31 (Oct 13, 2016)

Arguably, the best tapping tool is the one by George Thomas in his Workshop Techniques book.

This is not only a tapping tool but capable for staking/riveting and drilling with the ability to do divisions etc, Whilst the tool is available as castings from(say) Hemingwaykits it can be fabricated by welding.  My first came from an old boy, long dead now. To make the fabricated one does involve either silver soldering or brazing  or welding but once you have one- need I say more?

It's a class act and you can get into interesting things like making your own division plates.

Regards

Norman


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## radar (Oct 13, 2016)

What I found that Harbor Freight had (that looked interesting at least) was some 5/16ths HSS tool holders. Came in a set with lathe dogs and stuff- but Grizzly had the important part (the holders) by themselves for less. 

I think that the grinder alone would be fine. For finishing I doubt I would need a belt sander anyhow. Files and sanding blocks would probably work fine too- plus the Dremel.  

The buffer is.... well..... I have OCD. Buffing something super shiny is very satisfying as a result. 

I think I'll make the hand tapper and the arbor press. From what I have gathered from a fellow member of my live steam club ER collets hold dies really well, so this could get interesting. 

I'll just save my money on the bandsaw, my club has one I can use when ever and its not far from home.


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## radar (Oct 13, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> Arguably, the best tapping tool is the one by George Thomas in his Workshop Techniques book.
> 
> This is not only a tapping tool but capable for staking/riveting and drilling with the ability to do divisions etc, Whilst the tool is available as castings from(say) Hemingwaykits it can be fabricated by welding. My first came from an old boy, long dead now. To make the fabricated one does involve either silver soldering or brazing or welding but once you have one- need I say more?
> 
> ...



Norman, 

I think that I could make a simple hand tapper with out any issue- and for a lot less. A fairly sizable amount of my model engineering allowance is about to start flying out the door for my Allen Models Fitchburg Northern project. Thankfully with the large engines I have another hand to help me build it and the larger machines my local club has. 

-Dean


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## goldstar31 (Oct 14, 2016)

Radar
           I appreciate your comments and can only appreciate your concern about price.
A tapping tool CAN be fabricated from Scrap. Mine, the first edition mentioned earlier came from a guy's scrap box and was none the worse for that. Hopper wrote about Cleeve's Screwcutting in the Lathe and I can add the story of that lathe. In fact it was half a lathe and Cleeve added to it as he went along. The bits were fabricated from nuts and bolts which he made. He made the Swing Tool and tried to take out a Patent but - couldn't afford it. 
His story sadly ends with him losing his job but undeterred , he made specialist nuts and bolts on the 'half lathe' as a job. He published his book but did not live long enough to get the royalties.

My first 'real' lathe was all of £9 and the motor came from a washing machine. True, life has changed in many ways for me since then but there is no reason why you cannot have a very worthwhile workshop for very little money but obviously made with a lot of thought,

So I wish you success and hope that this might encourage your own efforts

Norman


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 14, 2016)

radar said:


> I think that I could make a simple hand tapper with out any issue- and for a lot less.



Or you could use your pillar drill or mill and a short bar with a point at one end and a countersink in the other for locating the work then keeping alignment and applying pressure on the back end of either countersunk or pointy ended taps, 

 - Nick


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## goldstar31 (Oct 14, 2016)

Nick Hulme said:


> Or you could use your pillar drill or mill and a short bar with a point at one end and a countersink in the other for locating the work then keeping alignment and applying pressure on the back end of either countersunk or pointy ended taps,
> 
> - Nick


 
It is often better to visualise the broad picture rather than propound a narrow solution.

My recommendation was designed to follow the original information that the poster intended to build model locomotives.  With this firmly in mind, I suggested the Universal tooling to do riveting, tapping, and all the other dividing and whatever which become the purview of  the locomotive builder.


Regards

Norman


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 14, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> It is often better to visualise the broad picture rather than propound a narrow solution.



I assume that it is often better to propound a simple, cheap solution for a single problem utilising existing equipment rather than to assume a wide range of unstated problems requiring a more complex and expensive solution. 
;-) 
 - Nick


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## goldstar31 (Oct 14, 2016)

Nick Hulme said:


> I assume that it is often better to propound a simple, cheap solution for a single problem utilising existing equipment rather than to assume a wide range of unstated problems requiring a more complex and expensive solution.
> ;-)
> - Nick


 
As far as my suggested solution is concerned, ALL these possibilities  were and are out of the scrap box. 

In this connection, I recall that despite the passage of years,  W.A.  Bennett is still getting royalties from the continued sale of Thomas's Workshop Techniques in which the UPT is described.
I recall that the first description of it appeared in Model Engineer by Thomas, then Thomas published it as separate small book as 'The Universal Pillar Tool'  along with a separate 'Dividing and Graduating ' book and then it is all amalgamated into Dr Bennett's more extensive book, Workshop Techniques.

With my late wife, I recall meeting up with Bill again, at the 50th Reunion of the Durham University Dental graduates and 
 Bill laughingly repeated the old Victorian song 'By Jove how the money rolls in, rolls in'

Sort of filling a need after removing the rotten stuff, perhaps?:hDe:

Norman


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 15, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> As far as my suggested solution is concerned, ALL these possibilities  were and are out of the scrap box.



Norman, 
I don't view time as cheap, or free, as I did in my youth, I'm very aware that the time I'm using is coming out of a finite pot. 

 - Nick


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## radar (Oct 25, 2016)

Alright, so this is going to sound strange but here it goes- 

Normally with QCTPs, the tool gets mounted where the tool is coming out of the right, so that it would go on the left when profiling is being done, boring bars to the left so that it would go horizontal for boring obviously. If I was making detailed wheels, would I just use boring bars for the facing or should I turn my regular tools around?


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## goldstar31 (Oct 26, 2016)

Again you are making 'sweeping statements' and would be advice becomes a matter of 'crystal gazing'
What is a detailed wheel? If it is a driving or bogie wheel for a model locomotive, I would seriously question whether a boring tool would be the preferred tool to make a shaped rim for going on rails. Again, I would doubt that an inserted carbide tool exists- or needs to exist!
Locomotive wheels are normally turned with either carbon or hss lathe tooling. By all means use a carbide to break through the 'skin' or crust but a dunk in say hydrochloric or muriatic acid will get rid of remaining casting sand or skin. 

If you are using a QCTP- and we are all different , the maxim is that you should present  the cutting tool in the most efficient way to remove the metal-- and not the other way around. I'd probably create a wheel rim profile with nothing more than finishing off with a hand held graver- which is probably  little different to what my great grandfather, grandfather or father or uncles used. 

Probably you could  extend your knowledge if you bought an old book by LBSC  or Leonard Sparey- or both.

Regards

Norman


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## Nick Hulme (Oct 26, 2016)

radar said:


> or should I turn my regular tools around?



Add a rear tool-post and use the lathe in reverse as well as forward, that way a turning tool in the front post can be used as a facing tool in the rear toolpost, you can effectively double your tooling for the cost of an extra tool post. 
If you do a lot of small things which you part off then an inverted parting tool for the rear post can be handy, 

 - Nick


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## goldstar31 (Oct 26, 2016)

My rear parting tool is one of those with an inclined inverted blade and runs in forward mode. It means that the swarf comes off as a ribbon being nipped narrower than the kerf and drops without binding. Had it for years!

So instead of all this prattle about front tooling, I've just ordered the casting for the Gibraltar tool post from Hemmingwaykits. So in for a penny, in for a pound, I thought that as my swing tool boring tool holder was so good, I might have a swing at the modification so that  the most recent Cleeve design would screwcut- and retract as well. 

So far so good, and I've also ordered 3 4" blanks to replace my heavily rusted set that go on the Thomas Versatile Dividing Head which comes with two worm wheels to do things - with a one hole division plate. All the clever stuff, if you know what I mean.

So I'm sitting at the  feet of the guru again------------------------so to speak

Norman


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## Blogwitch (Oct 26, 2016)

I think people are missing the point here, has anyone considered if the lathe he is considering getting can use tipped tools?.

With the smaller lathes, they just don't have the power to get a CCMT tip to work correctly whereas with a CCGT tip, then things could be achieved, but they are limited.

The CCMT (moulded) tips work by basically delaminating the material at almost atomic level, and this requires power to do properly.

A CCGT (ground)  tip works similar to an HSS tool, a cutting action. Unfortunately, these won't cut the harder materials as the very fine edges are prone to chipping.

I quote the CCMT & CCGT range because this seems to be the most prolific, cheapest to run, adaptable and best for model engineering use (that is the range I use for my 12" lathe), but only on machines that have the power to use them correctly.

IMHO, for smaller lathes, you would be better off looking at brazed tip carbide tooling if you need to go that way. If ground and used correctly, they can be used just like CCGT tips, but for all materials.

At one time, full sets of brazed tip cutters were given away with new machines, but because they were usually sold to beginners, they didn't get used correctly ( not set correctly for height, plus reground incorrectly when they chipped them) and so soon broke, so they complained about it online which gave them really bad press. 
I bought a set of them for only a few pounds many years ago, and used them until they couldn't be reground and sharpened any more. I only went over to insert tooling because I bought a much larger machine with the power to do things properly.
I, in fact, still use brazed tip tooling for all my single point thread cutting as I can get different grades and angles to cover different materials reasonably cheaply from MSC, and they last forever if used correctly.







John


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## goldstar31 (Oct 27, 2016)

Confessions should be good for the soul and I note a few of mine!

I have the remains of a set of CCMT inserts from Plansee which laughingly is a lake in the Tyrol and probably I should have returned them! About as useful as a *******************, well, they didn't work for me.

Again, I got a set of brazed things with a second hand Unimat clone. Again they were blunt and when I touched them with a 600grade hand held diamond hone, they were as soft as- well very nearly as- an 2B pencil.

No doubt I am not alone in these discoveries.

OK, I use inserts on my mill drill but I have more power and power steering of the slide thing!

As for the rest, I have decent HSS tools and I realise that qualities of hss are no different to rubbish or unsuitable carbides.

I confess that I don't have problems worth mentioning except to confess that I have a Clarkson but it is assisted with a Stent tool and cutter grinder- which sports a diamond disk. Adding up the relative costs, the two tools are far cheaper than the assorted boxes of whatnots. Again, I have a Quorn- somewhere but my Kennet which was the choice of many of the ancients is scheduled to sharpen slitting saws. 

Do I need ALL of these? Honestly -NO! but making a Quorn does prove something.

I forget what:hDe:


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## rodw (Oct 27, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> I have the remains of a set of CCMT inserts from Plansee which laughingly is a lake in the Tyrol and probably I should have returned them! About as useful as a *******************, well, they didn't work for me.
> :



Hmm, I thought they were awesome fom day 1 but then I did not buy them until after I upgraded my lathe which made life so much easier..


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## goldstar31 (Oct 27, 2016)

I discussed this yesterday whilst lying prone on a dentist's chair whilst the glue was setting on my temporary post to a front upper incisor.
I should have refused barbecued spareribs in one of these endless Chinese banquets! Almost going to be dearer than a new lathe--- heigh ho!

But the nice lady learned that I wasn't the only old fart with a rather posh house and a little Myford tucked away to maintain the image of professional affluence. Several of her senior lecturers/consultants had such things and made specialist surgical and dental tooling. Mine did a bit of casting of odd alloys- like gold and platinum from recovered fillings and bent endless springs etc to keep her old cherished motor going.  To move to a different and  larger sort of workshop environment is the quickest way to lose value both in property-- and neighbours. 

To change a lathe which has pretty well every conceivable extra for something far more expensive only to accommodate an alternative and no better system of tooling is to say the least, questionable.

Regards

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Oct 27, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> So instead of all this prattle about front tooling, I've just ordered the casting for the Gibraltar tool post from Hemmingwaykits. So in for a penny, in for a pound, I thought that as my swing tool boring tool holder was so good, I might have a swing at the modification so that the most recent Cleeve design would screwcut- and retract as well.
> 
> Norman


 
I've been having a second look at my original Cleeve boring tool holder.
Has anyone built one or better, modified the old design to retract for screwcutting ?


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## goldstar31 (Oct 27, 2016)

Speaking about Taig/Peatol stuff, has anyone tried www.cartertools.com? 

Might get around to reading it too as I have a Unimat clone- oh, a watchmakers lathe as well. I keep forgetting but maybe as the latter is a 6 mm thing, I could easily miss it.


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## Blogwitch (Oct 28, 2016)

BTW, the last picture is my swing up threading tool with the sets of threading cutters and grinding gauges for use with them.

For anyone new to threading on a lathe, and if it has a reverse, it could use one of these, and could easily be made by a beginner if they follow my sketch. Just a bit of angle iron and some bar plus a few screws.






Lots of people have made these now and people swear by them for ease of use.

Just make it to fit your size of machine.

John


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## platypus20 (Oct 28, 2016)

Blogwitch said:


> BTW, the last picture is my swing up threading tool with the sets of threading cutters and grinding gauges for use with them.
> 
> For anyone new to threading on a lathe, and if it has a reverse, it could use one of these, and could easily be made by a beginner if they follow my sketch. Just a bit of angle iron and some bar plus a few screws.
> 
> ...



John,

You posted on Shopfloortalk, a while back about the swing up threading tool I made using an AXA, QCTP block and a carbide insert threading tool from Grizzly Industrial. I had somewhat copied your design, I had seen it some where in the forums, it works great. Thanks for sharing that.


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## goldstar31 (Oct 29, 2016)

goldstar31 said:


> I've been having a second look at my original Cleeve boring tool holder.
> Has anyone built one or better, modified the old design to retract for screwcutting ?


 
I now have the Gibraltar casting and drawings and the 'new' Cleeve stuff and drawings

Also three replacement 4" plates to drill for my GHT Versatile Dividing Head.

Going to be busy once my Lammas 3 Way tool holder is completed.:fanhew:wall:


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## radar (Oct 29, 2016)

Gents, 

I have had good luck on my Delta lathe with CCMT and TCMT bits. The vendor (Little Machine Shop) has told me with the brushless motor lathe that they sell it would do just fine with indexable bits. 
Just in case and to give it the due diligence that is needed, does anyone have any plans for tangential tool bits that are not a nightmare to build? The lathe I am looking at has a 7" swing. (SC3 Sieg based- ditched the idea of buying a Taig when I yanked my head from my bum) 

I had an idea for them, which was just making it where the bit would be sandwiched between two pieces of steel and held in with screws applying pressure to both sides of the tool holder. 

I am still inclined to believe that I might be alright with carbide bits- but time will tell with that one on the small lathe.


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## ulfw (Nov 16, 2016)

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/

I am using chronos for tools


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## Blogwitch (Nov 16, 2016)

Unfortunately Ulfw, you have shown one of the slowest shippers in the UK, if they ship at all.

I have ordered stuff from them, and when I asked about the order a week later, they told me it had been cancelled because they didn't have any stock, no email sent to let me know. This wasn't just once, but several times.

I HAD to order from them the middle of last week, something I couldn't get elsewhere at the same price (a rather expensive item) and they shipped it yesterday, I'm expecting delivery in a couple of days. That will be ten days.

Now I ordered a Myford 4" chuck backplate from RDG on Monday, it was delivered 10 minutes ago by normal 1st class post.

Both do free shipping in the UK. Arc Euro also do fast shipping, but they do have a price limit to reach before you get free delivery, but it isn't much.


John


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## pandy (Nov 16, 2016)

Hi.

I assume you are in the US. If you are able to access this month's Model Engineering workshop Magazine (perhaps on the web), there is a very interesting article on a DIY toolpost that utilises one single indexable tip in such a way that all plain turning and turning to a shoulder can be done without changing Tool! A very interesting and simple concept.

Pandy, UK


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## dkwflight (Nov 16, 2016)

AR warner tool    http://www.arwarnerco.com/

Hemingway kits   http://www.hemingwaykits.com/
For kits,  make your own mods for mini lathes and other tools.

Good luck


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## Lindo (Nov 17, 2016)

I made my own and really works well.
Also I have adapted it to use when cutting internal threads.
Basically the holder fits into a QCTP  parallel with the spindle,slashguard side,
this means putting the swinging arm on the opposite side of the support frame
from th enormal position.
If anybody interested I will send photos via emails.
Contact John at   [email protected]

Thanks


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