# Plan quality



## LCT (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi guys! I'm new to steam, and to this forum.
I'm hoping you guys can help me decide if I'm out of line, but first, let me tell you a little about myself. I am a tool and die maker. I own a shop complete with CNC equipment and the latest design and programing software. I've been building plastic injection molds for over 20 years. When I'm not working, I enjoy building stuff that the neighbors can't buy at Wal-Mart.  

So, here's my long winded question. I've recently decided that I'd like to play around with steam power. I found a website with an intersting and unique engine, so I sent them $45.00 for the plans. I was expecting detailed drawings of every part along with some instructions on assymbly, fine tuning, and maybe even a little theory on how this particular engine operates. What I recieved were photographs of the model that the designer had built, with nearly 0 dimensions. Not a word about assymbly, fine tuning or theory. However, I was given access to the designer both by phone and email. I called him before I purchaced, and he was patient, and willing to answer my questions. In fairness, I do believe that I can build this model, but not without many hours of design work which I thought I had already paid for. But, because I have to guess at many of the dimensions and assymbly methods, I'm not sure I can achieve the efficency or power that the designer claims.

When purchacing plans, what kind of quality can be expected for $45.00? Are you used to seeing plans with everything you need detailed to build the engine, or am I jaded because of my years of building things from complete prints?


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## Mcgyver (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi LC, 

are you sure they sent you everthing - have they nothing to say about it? that's too bad, in my opinion you were ripped off. Unqualified yahoo's selling plans on the net is a pet peeve of mine - there is no quality control. If the vendor is say Coles or Miniature Power Products there is quality control - they don't let garbage out the door or they'll hear about it. The excellent mags such as Live Steam, Home Shop Machinist, Model Engineer and Model Engineers Workshop also exercices a lot of care in what they put out - plans appearing in their pages have been scrutinized. 

If you are not buying from a reputable source, it is a crap shot. I'd go so far as to call many of these vendors scoundrels. Why? What happens is some guy designs something, and figures 'hey, i could sell these plans and make the hobby pay for itself'. The problem is the design and plans are crap, the guy wasn't at all qualified or capable as designer or draftsman. When you sell something, there is a moral and legal obligation that what you are selling is does what it is suppose to do; that is isn't fraudulent. If you are selling plans, there's an obligation that the plans are well done and complete and the resulting build is of something that is reasonably well designed and will work. That many of these plans don't meet this moral and legal obligation makes those vendors scoundrels.

Unless you can really vet the individual selling the plans, buy from a reputable ME supplier or better yet subscribe to the mags and get the plans ++. That provides more support to the hobby than sending cheques to yahoos.

<rant over>

and welcome.

btw what are you looking for, there might be free stuff on the web you can look at


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## LCT (Jul 23, 2008)

Mcgyver  said:
			
		

> btw what are you looking for, there might be free stuff on the web you can look at




I think I've decided to design my own. I figure if I have to spend hours figuring out somebody else's design, I may as well come up with something original.  

I've started drawing something using a swashplate design. It should be light weight, and compact, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Wanna see a picture? I'd love to get some input.


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## LCT (Jul 23, 2008)

Mcgyver  said:
			
		

> Hi LC,
> 
> are you sure they sent you everthing - have they nothing to say about it? that's too bad, in my opinion you were ripped off.



Yea, it was sent by email, although usually he sends out a cd.

I've contacted him about it. He says he doesn't like to use words because this way anybody can understand it no matter what language they speak. ???
I feel I was ripped off too, but I don't know what to do about it. He claims I already have the information, so he won't refund my money. I told him I wasn't going to use his design, and even showed him a picture of what I'm drawing for myself. So, now he thinks I just used his design to get ideas even though they aren't similar.

Wish I had come here first. :-*


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## Mcgyver (Jul 23, 2008)

> Wanna see a picture?



we love pictures.

and don't get too discouraged - just because one guy was bad news, doesn't mean there aren't good plans out there - just make sure the source is reputable. There are many many beautifully drawn sets of model engineering plans out there


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## kvom (Jul 23, 2008)

My suggestion:

Browse this site looking at pics of engines people here have already built. If you see one you like the you can get feedback on the plans they used.


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## LCT (Jul 23, 2008)

Mcgyver  said:
			
		

> we love pictures.



OK, I'll post a couple in a new thread. Please understand, it's not done, and I'm not selling them as plans. I'm not a real engineer (although I play one at work) and I've never built a steam anything before. You get what you pay for (sometimes)


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## Cedge (Jul 23, 2008)

Would this particular set of engine plans happen to come in only one color.... like "Green", maybe?

Steve


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## LCT (Jul 23, 2008)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> Would this particular set of engine plans happen to come in only one color.... like "Green", maybe?
> 
> Steve



um... uh..... I ummmm.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to say. I'm torn between trying to warn others, and still hoping to get my money back. 
I thought about sending the thread to the person in question, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't expecting too much first. I don't wanna ruin a guy's business if I'm just being unrealistic.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 23, 2008)

LCT,

Don't mention the name yet, get a good second opinion, I am sure a few people on here could give you a knowledgeable report on them. Do not post any part of the plans just in case. While you are doing that send him the link to this post, give him the opportunity to read it and see you are not trying to rip him off, and amend his ways.

If the conclusion comes back that they are indeed bad plans for the money, then do the exposure bit. If it is a scam, the taxman might like to know as well.

Bogs


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## Cedge (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't want to put you in any less comfortable position, but I'll echo Bogster's advice, at least for the time being. I get a lot of feedback from many steam sources and your comments sounded rather familiar. Being one to read between the lines, it didn't take much to see the same picture I was getting from other sources.

I almost ordered what sound like the same plans, but after looking at the design, decided it wasn't something I wanted to add to my collection for a number of reasons.... not the least being a lack of visually pleasing lines.

Good luck on getting your money back. Assuming the same source....I've not heard anyone say that they've managed it so far.

Steve


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## CrewCab (Jul 23, 2008)

Welcome aboard LCT ............. I'm very much a beginner at model engineering and trawled the net to find some simple free plans for my first build, there are plenty out there plus more complicated ones, * Click here for quite a few*

Starting my working life as a draughtsman, many years ago almost any project I undertake starts life on the drawing board, or at least in sketch form, be it building wardrobes, tiling, making a garden gate or a model engine; how anyone can advertise "Plans" and then merely provide photographs is quite simply misrepresentation.

Plans should accurately capture all the geometric features of a component and convey sufficient information to allow construction / manufacture of said component(s).

Anyway, rant over, pull up a chair and enjoy yourself here 

CC


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## zeusrekning (Jul 23, 2008)

LCT, 1st off welcome aboard. 
I am in also in the machinist trade and have to say I have been suprised at what I have seen being called plans. But it is because I'm used to looking at prints made by teams of engineers as are you I suppose. I'm not knocking any of the people outting out plans that I have seen. They are that plans and usually a method of attack on the manufacturing process used to make the engine. Just saying not what I'm used to working from. Example being piston dia. = 3/8" Cylinder bore = 3/8" ??? I'm fine with it but used to haveing a tolerance to hit  Guess I complain when I have tolerances and when I don't  The way I look at it is I appreciate someone coming up with a unique design and putting it out there for us,,, but he should of put dimensions.
Tim


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## Mcgyver (Jul 23, 2008)

LCT, if buying plans, I wouldn't expect pictures and builders notes unless that was advertised as part of it, but no detailed plans and no dimensions? Seems ridiculous. What we should have here is a review forum - if the guys is selling junk why not give the next unsuspecting builder a heads up? I suppose there's always a sour grapes risk, but in the long run that would, imo, show itself for what it was.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 23, 2008)

LTC:
 you will find that there is a Lot of variation in quality in kits and plans from vendor to vendor. I can only speak about what I have purchased.
PM Research  sells a kit for an ocsilator it has a large blueprint detailing each part and a set of aluminum castings to be machined price $ 36. The mill engine kit in aluminum is $56 1 large blue print and construction notes and a assembly drawing on a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet. 
Rudy Kouhoupt used to sell IIRC 6 to 8 page B sized drawing sets for IIRC 10 - 15 dollars a set I mostly bartered with him so not 100 % sure of the prices. No construction notes or photos. This place has an 8 page detailed plan set for free. 
http://littlemachineshop.com/Projects/OscillatingEngine.php

In my experience for $ 45 for plans only I would expect a plan set for an engine with multiple cylinders a detailed dimensioned drawing of each part  multiple pages and some sort of assembly drawing showing the location of each part and a bill of materials. This would be the very minimum. For that price you should get a real nice set of plans for a real nice unusual engine. Nice Books can be had for for that kind of money. 
Tin


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## rake60 (Jul 23, 2008)

Greed is a funny motivator.

When I was about 12 years old I saw a classified ad in a magizine that read.

_*Start making money TODAY!
My easy plan for a guaranteed daily income with minimal cash investment
or overhead. Send $10 cash or money order to #######*_

OK I was 12 years old.
I sent my $10.
What I received was a *half* of a piece of copy paper the had the words,

Take out a classified ad in a magazine that reads:
_*Start making money TODAY!
My easy plan for a guaranteed daily income with minimal cash investment
or overhead. Send $10 cash or money order to #######*_

I never did place an ad..... 
 :

Scams haven't changed, they've just gone global at light speed.

Rick


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## shred (Jul 23, 2008)

IME Jerry Howell's plans and instructions are pretty good-- I think he has sample pages available as well so you can see what to expect, which is a great feature.


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## two dogs (Jul 23, 2008)

I agree with Tin Falcon. I don't think you're being unrealistic. For $45 I would expect EXTREMELY detailed plans, including full build notes and possibly DXF files to use for programming. If you expected PLANS and got PICTURES, you are right to be dissapointed. 
Like Shred said, Jerry Howells plans are very good, I've bought 4 sets. They are priced at $18-$19 for steam or stirling engines; more for IC engines. His have detailed build notes.
There are many other sources out there for plans. If you're thinking about buying a set, pass it by the people here to get an idea on the quality

HTH
Mark

Just found plan set in question. I was intrigued by them too, was thinking about ordering someday. Not now
M


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## LCT (Jul 24, 2008)

Before posting any information on my experience with Mr. Green, I offered to let him return my money. He refused. I explained to him that I intended to let the fine people of this forum know of my experience, and he answered with a link to a website, and the following line, "This site is asking for a review of your company. Why couldn't I right a review of your company? RG" 

It's my opinion that the inventor of the Green Steam Engine is not interested in suppling a good product at a good price. It's a shame really, because he has something that a person could build with very little machinery and experience. His engine is fun to watch, but I wouldn't advise buying his plans. You get nearly as much information from his website.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/

Perhaps an area in the forum to post good and bad experiences with suppliers would help keep others from making the same mistake that I did.


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## Cedge (Jul 24, 2008)

Taking a threatening or retaliatory stance, as it appears by his response, is probably not the brightest move one could make, especially considering his customer pool is a rather small and very specialized niche market. We do talk amongst ourselves, ya know. In the real world, the typical dissatisfied customer will tell approximately 20 other people.... on the internet you can measure that in thousands. Sadly....his quick $45.00 take is quite likely to cost him many times that. 

Steve


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## Bogstandard (Jul 24, 2008)

I personally have great difficulty understanding this sort of thing.

If his plans are such crap, I could have made a fortune selling mine, at least I know that whoever uses them has a chance of getting a runner.

In all fairness, all people who sell plans and the like should always have some freebies on their site, just so people can see the quality they are getting.

I have seen almost all plans that are available, and to me only about 10% of them are worth buying. All the little wobblers just aren't worth buying, you can usually get better quality free plans. I do buy plans, if I think they are worth the money. Just look at Bill Reichart, god bless him, but at least his spouse is most probably getting a few bucks out of them.

http://www.billreichart.com/engines.shtml

Very well laid out plans, good build description, and not a lot of readies. What more could you ask for.

Another one is Jan Ridders. A true master of design and accomplishment in my opinion, great plans and descriptions as far as his English will take him. How much does he charge - zilch, nothing, gratis. That is a true model engineer. Satisfaction from sharing, not ripping people off.

http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/index_framelinks_english.htm

And he also answers emails when you ask a question.

Sermon over, back to the Green gripe.

Bogs


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## rake60 (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm a player!

I just sent Mr. Green $45 to see what I get.

If it is not enough information to successfully build the 
engine my legal team will take it from there.

This is a dying craft that deserves to be protected.

We can do that!

Rick


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## CrewCab (Jul 25, 2008)

rake60  said:
			
		

> This is a dying craft that deserves to be protected.



Can we start a fund ...........  ............ put me down for $5 and send me your paypal details 

CC


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## rake60 (Jul 26, 2008)

I just received the plans for this engine from Mr Green via email.
They were in the form of two zip files. 3.52MB and 3.22MB in size.

The plans are more photographs than drawings.

Many of the parts used in the engine are standard hardware and plumbing 
fittings. The photos show any modifications needed to them with sizes 
marked on the pictures themselves.

Parts that require machining do have dimensioned line drawings in the
plans.

There is no text but I believe the engine can be built with the information
contained in the pictures and line drawings.

Is it worth $45?
That would be a personal choice.

It just may be my next project.

Rick


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## NickG (Aug 2, 2008)

Just had a look at the example drawings on his website ... they are a joke! Worth nowhere near $45 but just looks like one of those things, what a rip off!


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## rake60 (Aug 2, 2008)

NickG  said:
			
		

> Just had a look at the example drawings on his website ... they are a joke! Worth nowhere near $45 but just looks like one of those things, what a rip off!



When something is accused of being a rip off I will buy it to prove or disprove that.
I have already done exactly that.

While they may not be the best plans for a beginner to work from, they are complete
and contain all the information needed to successfully build the engine.

I'm NOT trying to say they are worth the cost.
I AM saying they are complete and concise.

Rick


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## NickG (Aug 3, 2008)

The example drawings on his website don't look complete or concise to me, but maybe he's omitted information on those to protect his design. 

I don't think any model engineering drawing pack I've seen has all the information to sucessfully build a working engine. None I've seen have dimensional tolerances let alone geometric tolerances, they assume knowledge of limits and fits and often there is an article or building instructions to back the drawings up, it is a hobby after all.

This engine however, is aimed at commercial applications as much as it is model engineers. Therefore I think if you're marketing something like this as a patented design with as many applications as the designer says it has, it should be done properly with a full set of accurate and concise drawings. I don't think he has gone about this in the right way, he is trying to market a prototype (proof of concept type thing) that has been bodged together with existing parts. That's just my opinion though so will leave that there.

I would agree with Rick's point above, by the sound of it there is enough information there for the experienced model engineer to build the engine, however, whether it's worth the money is up to the individual to decide.

Nick


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## IanN (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi,

OK - this may be a bit of a rant but I need to voice my opinion about Mr Green's engine.

I've visited Mr Green's website a number of times, and each time I notice more errors and misleading statements.

I think it is a bad idea to buy these plans (in whatever form they may be) as it seems that the designer has some rather misguided ideas and a poor understanding of both mechanics and basic steam-engine concepts. 

This website / engine design has been discussed in another thread in this forum (see under "Novel steam engine transmission to rotary motion idea"). I stated my initial opinions in that other thread.

In the website the designer makes a number of unsubstansiated claims that are worded in a way that seems to be deliberately misleading:

1) He claims that the engine will run on a couple of PSI with low steam consumption ("low volume" to quote the site) but you cannot change the laws of physics or thermodynamics - the available output power at the shaft will be very small and the motor will not be able to do any useful work under these contitions. 

2) He talks about "efficiency" without defining how it is measured, and makes illogical statements such as "The output shaft continues rotation while the pistons stand still. The result is that the efficiency is increased dramatically." - I am lost for words......

3) He claims the design "eliminates the crank" yet the animated gif clearly shows that the flex rod connects to an off-set pin (a crank) on the flywheel.

4) He claims the design "eliminates side force" but the cyliders oscillate (and so are subject to side forces) and at the base of each cylinder there is a bearing tube to prevent the side forces twisting the pistons out of alignement within the cylinders (the equivilent of a crosshead in a normal engine).

5) He claims the design is a great step forward because it does away with the lower cylinder glands and seals (in other words it has single acting rather than double acting cylinders) as if this is a new concept.

6) He claims the advantages of low maintenance - but ignores the boiler maintenance required.

7) He lists benefits of:
- Costs little to build,
- Extremely lightweight,
- Very small profile for economy of space.
All of which ignore the requirement for a boiler - note the picture of the engine installed in a boat.

8 ) He states "The flex rod is nearly frictionless as the flexing is like a spring in which the energy required to flex it is returned in equal amounts." but if you look at the operation of the unit, one end of the flex rod is at a fixed point on the frame on the axis of the output shaft and the other on the (non-existant) crank - a fixed radial displacement from the axis of the output shaft. In other words the rod does not oscillate and bend from side to side, but twists maintaining a fixed curve. There is no "spring action" involved at all.

It just goes on and on.


For me, two of the most worrying issues are:

He dismisses problems of steam generation with the statement that "the boiler requirements are minimal". (If he applies the same level of engineering theory to his boiler design and construction as he shows in the rest of his website, I would imagine that most members of this group would take care to stay as far away from any of Mr Green's boilers as possible.)

Second,he claims that:

"The unique feature of the "Flex Rod Transmission" is that it produces an intermittent movement whereby the valve movement is stopped in its open and closed position during the power and exhaust strokes. This gives prolonged, fully opened valve timing."

Most steam engine designs go to great lengths to REDUCE the valve open times (through the use of variable "cut-off") to get maximum energy from the steam expansion - it seems the designer of this device does not understand this rather basic concept.


Given the points above, I suspect that any plans produced by the designer will have many errors and ommisions.

This sort of poor presentation of ideas and design gives engineering a bad name.

Finally, the design has been patented for five years, but Mr Green does not give any instances of satisfied commercial users on his website.......

Ian.


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## NickG (Aug 9, 2008)

Well said Ian, I noticed a couple of these points myself but agree with all of them!


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