# Tool grinding persective



## Tin Falcon (Aug 14, 2013)

After reading the rant on the poor quality of a 115 pc drill bit set I got to thinking. 
before I express those thoughts 
I want to say this all respectful thoughtful input welcome. 
I will not let this turn into another all Chinese tools are crap thread 
or a American manufacturing is going down the tubes thread. 
I have heard the complaints and the gripes and some are valid some use such threads to vent the same old stuff. I am looking for solutions to problems and a way to make the home shop productive and not pay top dollar for tooling .
I am not tying to solve a debate here if you can afford to pay full retail for new american made tooling god bless you if you only can afford the import stuff that is fine as well. 
And i will remind you this is from the perspective of a home shop. 

One of the points brought up in the other thread was getting new drill bits with less than a perfect grind.  OK  if you look at a machining manual or the machinery handbook you will see that different materials work best if the drill is ground for that material. Industry standard is pretty much 118 degrees for common use and a 135 degree for harder material and better performance. Brass and cast iron works best with zero rake at the edge .4/6 flute sharpeners are becoming more popular. 
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html
Info on the web is available. there was build article in home shop machinist and  Tormek sells a very nice jig for drill sharpening. And of course there is the drill doctor. So IMHO there are many good reasons to have the tooling knowledge and experience to sharpen a drill bit in the home shop. 

The first reason that comes to mind is better performance. Tools dull and drilling is likely the number one machining operation so you need to keep the edge. Then economy most HSM folks are more concerned about money than time so it makes sense to sharpen drill bits and get you moneys worth. 

IF I pay 2-4 hundred dollars for a USA made drill bit set yes I want the cutting edge to be ground right.  But if I pay say $ 50 for a HF set and some of the edges need work or the symmetry is off is that really a big deal ? 
Like i said earlier sometimes you want a grind that is not factory standard. 
If I purchased 100 lathe tool blanks for $50 I would expect to have to grind every one to my own specification and grind it to purpose. Is it that much different buying 115 drill bits for the same money and having to grind a few to make the do what I want? 

This hobby is about creativity, understanding tools, geometry, metals etc. sometimes it is a matter of adapting to overcome  even when it comes to a humble drill bit. 
When I worked in the pro shop running CNC the first thing we would do when a new carbide boring bare came out of the pack was grind it the way we knew it would work best. 

I am an advocate of getting the best you can afford and the best bang for the buck in the long run . We all have to choose our own tooling. 

It should not be a big deal to sharpen a drill bit . And a $150 is a good bit of money to save. 
I know many of you out there know what works best for you and have a strong opinion and that is fine . This is fa few thoughts for the open minded who love to machine but are on a budget. 

TIn


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## canadianhorsepower (Aug 14, 2013)

I have one of those titanium coating 115 drill set, It's about 8 years hold
and it serve me well. Sure when I'm doing carb work or precise drilling I take care to measure the drill, just to make sure it's dead on. Those that are off I simply take a marker and put a small line beside it's size, it's a ref for next time use. We all know that to much pressure on a small drill will get it to curve and have the wrong size hole anyway.

I have a drill doctor to sharpen my drill and would never get rid of it. I replace the cutter once a year 10.00 and it does miracle. I really endorse the product


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## goldstar31 (Aug 15, 2013)

I was having a think. So there are 115 drill sets- some expensive, some like mine- dirt cheap.
Look again at one contributor who has a lathe and the tailstock end is - not drilling properly- or so he says. So what use is a range of drills covering from nearly nothing to 1/2"?  So far, the same problem arises if the tailstock is spot on but the drill chuck is one of those ****ty things that is either worn- or inaccurate- or both! Quite simply, it is a waste of time and effort and money - without having a drill chuck which is as near spot on as we can get- then get a set of fancy drill sizes------------eventually.

I've a set of drills- I've sets of more sets and different qualities and ranges from Imperial Sizes, Metric sizes, Letter drills and Number drills of varying qualities and a crate of drill chucks of various sizes and-- accuracies.

I have a confession because I have a set of Metric ones which are half a millimetre apart- and that's 20 thous total-- and they seem to cover my ordinary needs.

I expect that some comment will arise.


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## Tinkerer58 (Aug 16, 2013)

I agree with Tin, we all know Chinese product is not always A1, but you get what you pay for. I have some Chinese machines and I expect to pull them apart and set them up properly, it saves me lots of money and as far as I'm concerned it's half the fun of the hobby. Once you know the limitations of a tool you should allow for it and use it accordingly. If I need a tool that I would use on a daily basis and it's going to make me an income I will buy the best I can afford. If it is a tool to be used for hobby work or used rarely I buy what I can get away with for the job at hand.
I think it all boils down to your budget and your priority, so I don't rubbish Chinese product because it does the job acording to the budget. I have been involved in importing bearing and engineering components from China for 15 years and over that time the quality has improved dramatically, but if you buy the cheapest you can find that is what you will get out of a back shed in China somewhere. It all has to be kept in perspective, if I want cheap junk I can also buy out of a back shed in Germany, USA, UK and Australia or anywhere else you would like to mention, don't tarnish everything from China or elsewhere with the same brush.


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## Hopper (Aug 16, 2013)

Not sure what all the drama about drill-sharpening is caused by. Every 16-year-old first-year apprentice used to be able to sharpen a drill bit on a pedestal grinder without jigs or guides or anything other than five minutes' rudimentary training and a little bit of practice. 
It ain't rocket surgery.


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 16, 2013)

Good points being made. 

so why not pick up a cheap set to learn and practice grinding on ? 

And an inexpensive set can be ground to use for plastic and brass. 

Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 16, 2013)

> Not sure what all the drama about drill-sharpening is caused by. Every 16-year-old first-year apprentice used to be able to sharpen a drill bit on a pedestal grinder without jigs or guides or anything other than five minutes' rudimentary training and a little bit of practice.
> It ain't rocket surgery.



So true and every apprentice could use a file and chisel. Uses a hacksaw and knew how to grind a lathe and shaper tool for any application.IMHO all basic machinist skills. but in production shops  Cutters are changed not sharpened and some shops send drills out for sharpening by machine because it is cheaper. or simply buy new drill bits. 



Industry automation and cnc give us cheap goods and at the same time reduce the need for highly skilled machinists.  This reduces the  the need to machine operator. 

IMHO the machinist, blacksmith and any other artisan will do well to learn to first draw with a pencil then shape metal with the hand eye and other tools.
The time to learn skill is never wasted. In the modern machine shop the skill of programming is just as important as filling . times force change and modern technology often accelerates change.  It is called the Edison Effect an interesting read if you happen across the book.
In the home shop we machine because we want to and we have the opportunity to learn  and preserve the skills and machines of years past and hopefully pass them on . 
Turn off the power and see who can still make a part HMM. Maybe the Amish have an edge there.
Tin 

Tin


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## tornitore45 (Aug 16, 2013)

I flunked a middle school entrance test and had to go to trade school.
At that time a felt very bad but it turned out to be the best thing in my life education.

In middle school we had wood shop and metal shop we learned to saw, plane, chisel and make joinery. In metal shop we learned to draw, read a vernier, file a flat and square surface, make a simple slide joint without light showing, in 8th grade I had an opportunity to work on a lathe, we also had metallurgy and machining theory plus physic the regular middle school did not have.

Instead of going to the high school that prepared toward law, literature, engineering and medicine, I opted for the Technical Institute to specialize in electronic but the first 3 years were the same for all specialization so I got to do more filing metal, lathe work, and foundry shop.

The manual skill, mechanical attitude and the practical sense acquired were very important in my future carreer.

All stuff you are not going to learn via computers. Computers are great tools but you have to have built something in your youth to be a real engineer.


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 16, 2013)

> Learning Recall Related to Type of Presentation
> 
> Presentation	Ability to Recall
> after 3 hours	after 3 days
> ...


from :http://changingminds.org/

One can clearly see the importance of hands on involvement in learning a task. 


I love the line from Apollo 13*." I need solutions people......... Failure is not an option." Gene Frantz Mission Director. *



Tin


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## Beachside_Hank (Aug 16, 2013)

Just bought a drill bit grab bag from H.F. Checked for quality, and all were surprisingly good, then I noticed about half of them were ground opposite normal rotation. I pulled out the books and was going to go about resharpening for standard drill press rotation when it occurred to me that I could still use them in my lathe for boring, just run the head in reverse. Hope this little missive is in keeping with the thread.


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## mu38&Bg# (Aug 16, 2013)

My problem is that if you're going to take the time to do something why not just do it right? If the vendor cared to make sure they were getting decent drills they would get them. But if HF or whoever doesn't check and doesn't care and the customer doesn't care because it's cheap that's what everyone gets.

I have a 250$ USA HSCo split point set and it is excellent except somebody filled two adjacent holes with the same drill and I needed the missing drill. I buy USA made drills when I need them. I do have a bunch of drills from toolbox purchases and I sharpen them by hand when needed. I don't always get it right the first time, but have some very good split points I made.

Greg


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 16, 2013)

Were they left handed drill bits? Yes they do make them great for drilling out broken fasteners and other times where counter rotation is desired.

I have heard of using broken mill cutters as boring bars


Tin


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## dnalot (Aug 17, 2013)

I can grind a decent point on a larger bit , but the smaller ones are difficult. So i bought a drill sharpener and i have never used a dull bit sense. 20 years ago i bought a 150 pound lot of drill bits from Boeing Surplus. Highest quality and they have served me very well over the years. 

My pet peeve is the crappy key-less chucks on cordless drills. So i bought a set of bits with a hex end for chucking. Now the bits turns in the hex base instead of the chuck. 

Mark T


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## robcas631 (Jan 13, 2014)

Mark,

 When I was 14, my father taught me to sharpen bits on a grinder. It's good to know! Call me lazy but I like the drill doctor.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 13, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> I have heard of using broken mill cutters as boring bars
> 
> 
> Tin


 
 Actually keeping centre drills ( usually Number 1's) with broken points for boring bars is standard practice over here( UK) Usually they are high quality HSS and are 'the right size' to replace  the previous one fitted with a grub screw in the array of boring bars which are made up from what is laughingly called 'Silver steel' I must have smashed a few because I have a set of internal screwcutting tools as well:wall:

 On the subject of sharpening them instead, I confess to being unable to re-point them( satisfactorily) hence the above notes.

 On the subject of reconditioning worn twist drills, I conclude that there are two schools. One is those who can and those who can't. I fit neatly into the latter category

 I'm not going into the endless ****-ing match but hark back to my earlier remarks about cheap and not too nasty Chinese collets. They are admirable for lots of reasons and are ideal to 'do' twist drills using the four facet method. If you think carefully, this four facet method is how endmills and slotdrills are re-sharpened. Apart from the different angles on the points, there are surprisingly few problems. 

 Having said all that, there is the two facet method of grinding lathe tools for lathe tools are only half twist drills etc. Ooops:hDe:

 Enough for one day, eh? Time to be cook, slut, butler and duty driver for my poorly wife.

 Bye

 Norman


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## Swifty (Jan 13, 2014)

Hi Norman, like you I always kept worn out centre drills and broken cutters, mainly 1/4", to use as bits in boring bars.  Bored many diesets to take guide pins and bushes with these boring bars.

Paul.


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## Gordon (Jan 13, 2014)

Sort of on the same theme of learning the basics: I learned "drafting" using pencil and a straight edge etc. Today's "designers" learn CAD and never actually learn the basics. I have found that many of today's designers treat the production of drawings as a computer game instead of a way to transmit information. When I was working as a machine builder I had to make drawings for approval and graduated to CAD. Many times I found the recipient was more interested in their CAD standards on colors, layers etc and really had no idea what the drawings were actually trying to show.

Learning to draw using a pencil and learning things like orthographic projection should be required before letting the student loose on a computer.


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## gerritv (Jan 13, 2014)

Gordon said:


> Learning to draw using a pencil and learning things like orthographic projection should be required before letting the student loose on a computer.



Learning to dimension would be even more useful. Some of the hobby-produced CAD drawings are useless.

Gerrit


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## toolznthings (Jan 13, 2014)

I would be more interested in the quality of the drill bit material and worry about the grinding later if needed. Better material will allow for longer life and more sharpening. It's not hard to learn to grind drills by hand and the compromise of price and quality will always be there.


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## BaronJ (Jan 13, 2014)

I've just bought a cheap metric set of taps, dies and tapping drills from Aldi.  Imagine my surprise to find that the drills are HSS and all split point.

Not had chance to use them yet so I don't know how good or bad they are.  But for £17 who knows.


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## robcas631 (Jan 13, 2014)

I learned to draw via hand. It seems to be a lost art now. When I was in college we had ACAD 9.0 on glorified 286 computers. Yep, loading a floor plan took 5 minutes or more. 

Having the ability to draw is IMHO a must. Same goes for using measuring tools such as calipers, micrometers ..ect. This past Christmas my father gave me some gifts that are very special and personally invaluable.


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## Hopper (Jan 14, 2014)

robcas631 said:


> I learned to draw via hand. It seems to be a lost art now. When I was in college we had ACAD 9.0 on glorified 286 computers. Yep, loading a floor plan took 5 minutes or more.
> 
> Having the ability to draw is IMHO a must. Same goes for using measuring tools such as calipers, micrometers ..ect. This past Christmas my father gave me some gifts that are very special and personally invaluable.



Ooh those are very nice indeed. I'm envious. 

I still have my final year trade school drawing exam work folded up in the lid of my toolbox. Pencil and straight edge, two hours to complete. Fittingly, it was of a steam valve, something else that is nearly a thing of the past today.


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 14, 2014)

> I've just bought a cheap metric set of taps, dies and tapping drills from Aldi. Imagine my surprise to find that the drills are HSS and all split point.
> 
> Not had chance to use them yet so I don't know how good or bad they are. But for £17 who knows.



Interesting to see. I purchased a hand full  of bits from tractor supply IIRC 20 - 30 bits for $ 10. I was drilling I beam with concrete behind it . some wer OK some bent and were unusable but as soon as you hit concrete the tip is shot anyway and you need to resharpen 
Tin


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## goldstar31 (Jan 14, 2014)

There are several ways to look at the Aldi version of things. Of course, I haven't a clue about Tractor Supply or whoever and cannot comment. I bought the Aldi set in the UK some months ago. Aldi, incidentally is all over Europe and is Aldi Sud, Aldi Nord and Hofer in Germany and Austria and has tremendous purchasing power and with Lidl is threatening the UK major Tesco, Marks and Spencer's, Morrison's and so on. So back to what they offer and that is 3 years for a lot of things- and no quibble. If one thinks about it coldly, it beats the sh1t out of many UK guarantees of ONE year. 
 So back to this box of goodies which is only the price of a Chinese dinner- which is gone  in a trice! I have a complete  set of Imperials and BA's and ME's twice or thrice over but I have had to accept metric and bought a set of taps for a lot more than this and- they are not terribly good though from a nationwide ,reputable engineering factor. So at £17 the set of dies alone are worth having. For a newcomer, this may not be the factory standard but it is a workable kit to make the bits that should enhance having got a barebones, cheap, far from accurate lathe that came with a book of instructions which read 'Gong Hey Fat Choy'  and not a lot more.

 Me? I was in Aldi today( somewhere to park whilst getting prescriptions) and they had arc welders for £33 with a box of accessories. Not enough to supply Henry Kaiser and those wonderful Liberty ships but you get the idea.
 Dammit, I'd been in the other week and came out of Aldi with a 7" Adenoid tablet  for all of £80 or 100 Euros.

 I'll get me coat

 Norman


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## BaronJ (Jan 14, 2014)

Beachside_Hank said:


> Just bought a drill bit grab bag from H.F. Checked for quality, and all were surprisingly good, then I noticed about half of them were ground opposite normal rotation. I pulled out the books and was going to go about resharpening for standard drill press rotation when it occurred to me that I could still use them in my lathe for boring, just run the head in reverse. Hope this little missive is in keeping with the thread.



Reminds me of a little incident many years ago.  I spent a very short time in a large engineering workshop.  I would only be 16 or 17 at the time.  The foreman had been giving me some instruction on hand grinding drills...  Well I thought I had been doing very nicely thank you.  He then gave me a couple of drills and told me to go and sharpen them.  An hour or so later he came to see where I was and why I was taking so long to sharpen these drills.  I must admit that at that time I hadn't a clue that there were such things as "left hand" drills.  Much hilarity was had by the other guys when the foreman told them....  I leave the rest to your imagination.


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 14, 2014)

I have a couple nice kitchen knives from Aldis .
Hey tools that need sharpening
Tin


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## DJP (Jan 14, 2014)

As a student in a summer factory job, I worked in the Machine Repair department. One day the foreman asked me to drill a hole in a piece of steel but it was a shop joke. One of the old timers had put a twist in the belt so that the press ran backwards. Of course the bit would not cut so I went to the grinder to sharpen it and try again. The men enjoyed a good laugh and it was my initiation. I think that I passed the test as it was the right thing to sharpen the bit.

To this day I consider the sharpening of tools to be part of the job.


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## Swifty (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm always amazed at the weekly specials from our local Aldi store, computers, tablets, motor bike clothing, welders etc. I will keep a look out for tap and die sets.

Paul.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 15, 2014)

Apologies if my earlier post moved away a bit  from the original question. Blame it on me being old- and set in my ways.

 The 'Universal Supplier' is just around the corner and I buy food such as sugar because sugar is sugar and A's is cheapest. However, they have things like powered tile cutters and mini sanding belt things( memory gone) and double ended grinders. OK, I cracked the DE thing by buying better wheels and ran my home made tool and cutter grinder with one( until something better turned up). Sitting on the spare bed in what is laughingly described as 'my study' which is a laugh, it's a forgettery, is a set of drawings of a thing called a Tinker tool and cutter grinder.
 OK, fellas, I've got a Quorn and things but this design has three main bits and is not much more than an angle bracket. The abrasive side of the business comes from any old DE grinder.  Dead cheap to make in a week- and will do drills and lathe tools and milling cutters. All this rigmarole about graduated things in degrees is reduced to turning a square holder over 4 times- and each turn indexes the previous one as it goes through 90, then 180 and 270 degrees and back to nothing.  It's interesting !

 My other 'moonbeam' is the tile cutter- from you know who.  It's got a motor, its got a table and -wow- a diamond disk. Now if I have got it right, that would grind carbide. In case we have forgotten, it is the stuff that comes on the ends of drills and lathe tools.

 My coffee is getting cold and my patient wife is patiently waiting.

 Norman


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## OrangeAlpine (Jan 15, 2014)

The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist.  The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.

The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time.  Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds.  Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???  

NO -  he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds.  In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.

Rant over.

{edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site:  Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com

Bill


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## BaronJ (Jan 15, 2014)

OrangeAlpine said:


> The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist.  The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.



At 16 or 17 years of age they are still in the school playground !



> The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time.  Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds.  Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???



Yes I agree.  We all have to start somewhere.  But taking the piss out of a newby is the fastest way to discourage them.  I said in my post " I spent a very short time in a large engineering workshop. "  Now you know why...



> NO -  he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds.  In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.
> 
> Rant over.



I agree !  But this requires that the tutor has the patience and skill to guide a student.  Today tutors with these skills is in very short supply.  Forums such as these are, in my opinion, a veritable goldmine.  I very much appreciate being able to come here and learn. 



> {edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site:  Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com
> 
> Bill



I take that last comment in jest but do understand the sentiment.


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## OrangeAlpine (Jan 15, 2014)

I do not want to take the piss out of the newby.  It is needed if he is ever to progress beyond the operator stage.  But to tell the newby to buy the Aloris tool post, we are reinforcing the idea that all that is needed is the proper equipment.  We need to tell the newby "You don't need that stuff to learn.  You might want it later."

Yes, the tutor has to be patient with the student.  The site abounds with patience.  He also has to be honest.  That's where we are failing.  When we fail to say to the student "You do not need that to become a machinist" or "You really need to learn this in order to become a machinist" we are not being honest.  

My last comment is just my way of reminding folks that a major object of the site is to encourage the development of the individual machinist, not produce machine operators.  Some may not be capable of becoming machinists.  That does not mean we should lower our goals.

Bill


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 15, 2014)

> The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist. The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.



Agreed !!



> The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time. Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds. Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time


IMHO it is encouraged to use HSS and learn to sharpen it. 

As far as aloris type toll holders yes I recommend then . IN my opinion they save aggravation of using shims to set tool height. And yes save time as well. 






> NO - he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds. In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.




Rant over.



> {edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site: Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com
> 
> Bill



Really??  I do not know any machine operator  that can make every part of a working engine.

Tin


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## barnesrickw (Jan 15, 2014)

Because in relative terms employees are costly, equipment is cheap things become more user friendly and require different and sometimes simpler skills to run.  When I first learned to run a CNC, if you needed to adjust the machine, you changed the coordinates in the program.  Had to find where it was in the program, and know how to change the values to get the result you needed.  Last kid I talked to running a CNC turned a +/- knob on a panel next to a DRO.  I hesitate to look too far down my nose at his lack of understanding of the actual function of a CNC, because I know there is some guy with a hacksaw, drill and file wondering why we spend all this money on lathes and mills.


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## BaronJ (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi Guys,
Realistically this is the difference between a production workshop and a hobbyist one. Either requires a particular blend of skills.  As a youth I had non and no real incentive to learn any, nor at that time did I understand what was required of me in order to earn a living.


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## BaronJ (Jan 16, 2014)

BaronJ said:


> I've just bought a cheap metric set of taps, dies and tapping drills from Aldi.  Imagine my surprise to find that the drills are HSS and all split point.
> 
> Not had chance to use them yet so I don't know how good or bad they are.  But for £17 who knows.



Replying to my own post...

I've just used the 3.3mm drill and tapped a pair of M4 x .07 holes in a length of 1" square black black bar that I am using to make a mill tramming tool.  I drilled the holes dry but used "Trefolex" on the tap.  It cut easily and clean as would be expected from a new tap.

So far so good...  Now I need something to try the dies out.


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## Walltoddj (Jan 16, 2014)

I guess I'm from the old school the first thing you learn is about safety, the next to sharpen drills, next grind your own tool bits. We had carbides but you ground your own no insert tools, as far as shimming I had the tool holders and a tool post, in fact I just made a new one for my lathe. I have got some insert tools but most are lousy finish unless you have an insert for that type of material I just hand grind a square bit and I'm good it took a lot of time and training to be able to do that. I was lucky my Dad was a tool maker and I ran his machines at 10 years old. Now most are CNC with insert tools and they are lost when it comes to hands on make it work. The knowledge is there it's just that a lot of the new one's like the easy way out and don't want to get their hands dirty not all but some.

Todd


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## Wizard69 (Jan 16, 2014)

Careful, in some shops a "machinist" isn't much more than an operator.  


OrangeAlpine said:


> The drill bit problem illustrates the difference between machine operator and machinist.  The transition from operator to machinist is a long, sometimes bumpy journey, compounded by the fact the newby is usually not even at the machine operator stage.
> 
> The strange part is the machinists tend to hinder transition by telling the newby, yes, they need the Aloris tool holder to save setup time.  Yes, they need carbide tooling because it can run at higher speeds.  Come on fellas, a guy that doesn't know his ass from his elbow needs to save time???


Personally I can't imagine owning a lathe without a QCTP.   I'm not sure why such an accessory is knocked so much on these forums.   Maybe it has something to do with starting out on a lathe with a lantern tool post.  


> NO -  he needs to learn how to sharpen tools, figure out good order of operations, how to do setups, determine proper speeds and feeds.  In short, learn how to becomes a machinist.


I'd be the first to agree that learning to sharpen tooling is very important.  However that again has nothing to do with the fact that carbide insert tooling is very handy.  Using something that is innovative shouldn't be looked down upon, are we to dismiss new ideas like EDM or even 3D printed parts just because they are new or take a different skill set to use?   


> Rant over.
> 
> {edit}But wait, maybe it would just be easier to rename the site:  Home Model Engine Machine Operator.com
> 
> Bill




I understand your point about being able to sharpen something but at the same time I don't like to dismiss modern conveniences. It is very much a two way street.   We must remember there was a time when a vertical mill was considered new technology.   Today shapers and horizontals are often dismissed in the home shop.


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## Wizard69 (Jan 16, 2014)

OrangeAlpine said:


> I do not want to take the piss out of the newby.  It is needed if he is ever to progress beyond the operator stage.  But to tell the newby to buy the Aloris tool post, we are reinforcing the idea that all that is needed is the proper equipment.


I don't buy this one bit!   A decent tool post makes it easier to switch tools, they still need to be setup correctly and sharpened correctly.  


> We need to tell the newby "You don't need that stuff to learn.  You might want it later."


Why?    The first reality is that most lathes come with tool posts these days that amount to being crap.  Frankly this is like telling somebody they don't need a bench grinder to shape and sharpen tools as they can do everything required with an Arkansas stone and a little oil.   


> Yes, the tutor has to be patient with the student.  The site abounds with patience.  He also has to be honest.  That's where we are failing.  When we fail to say to the student "You do not need that to become a machinist" or "You really need to learn this in order to become a machinist" we are not being honest.


When you say you don't need something to do XYZ all you are expressing is an opinion.    Especially in this industry where there are multiple ways to do anything.   As an aside there was a point in my life where the idea that a magnifying glass would become an important tool was laughable, now my opinion has changed and I'm seriously thinking that I need a selection of magnifying devices to work in the shop.  Opinions change.  

If you where to say you need to learn to sharpen tool steel to be a machinist that can also be seen as an opinion.   The difference is it is well accepted in the industry as a measure of skill.  


> My last comment is just my way of reminding folks that a major object of the site is to encourage the development of the individual machinist, not produce machine operators.  Some may not be capable of becoming machinists.  That does not mean we should lower our goals.
> 
> Bill



Actually I thought it was all about engine building.   Again it is a matter of perspective, not everyone has the strong desire to refine their machinist skills to the same extent as everybody else.  The funny thing here is that I came to this site to learn more about machining and not so much about engine building.   As noted there is a fantastic array of skills represented on this forum.    To keep the newbies interested we need to be flexible and not absolute in our declarations.


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## Nerdz (Jan 17, 2014)

Being a newbie in the machinist world, Ive had to learn how to make my own tooling, because tooling is expensive. For Example: A decent boring bar is $100 bucks, when all it is, is just a piece of hardened steel with a HSS bit in it. Well in order to use that HSS bit properly, I have to grind it. The odd thing here is I have no prior knowledge on how to machine anything, but I will confess that way back in high school (2000-2001), I used a large lathe, and in all honesty, that was for a total of 10 days! We didnt do much in theory, but it was all hands on. We didnt learn tool grinding and such, because it was an exploratory program (I went to a tech high school). Everything else has been filled in with research and lots of reading. Does that make me a machinists? (Id like to say yes, but I feel Im more of an apprentice)

I still dont own a QCTP (yet), I somewhat dont mind having to shim out my bits, because in all honesty, after a while I remember which little bits of scrap to use for shimming (I currently use 5/16 Bits and my current one hasnt needed to be sharpened in a while).

Now the whole tool grinding thing doesnt just apply to machining too, I have noticed it in the world of electronics. There are "easy" hardware/software items that you can buy to teach you the basics of electronics, such as the Arduino. However, it does not teach you the fundamentals as I have learned as a EET (and this is my personal peeve)! It does not teach you how to use registers, or what the micro is actually doing, nor does it teach you voltage and current laws. 

So someone can easily program something, but do they understand whats going on behind the scenes? No. I can say the same thing about myself in a way, that I have used "easy" programming languages out of pure lazyness, but I do know whats going on behind the scenes.


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## BaronJ (Jan 17, 2014)

Wizard69 said:


> Actually I thought it was all about engine building.   Again it is a matter of perspective, not everyone has the strong desire to refine their machinist skills to the same extent as everybody else.  The funny thing here is that I came to this site to learn more about machining and not so much about engine building.   As noted there is a fantastic array of skills represented on this forum.    To keep the newbies interested we need to be flexible and not absolute in our declarations.



I'll second that !

I've yet to build an engine.  I've built other things, mainly tools.  My current building project is a mill tramming tool.  Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...

Its very much a part of my learning by doing it !  Coupled with advice and help from many many others who have been there, done that, and have the T shirt.


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## BaronJ (Jan 17, 2014)

Nerdz said:


> I still don't own a QCTP (yet), I somewhat don't mind having to shim out my bits, because in all honesty, after a while I remember which little bits of scrap to use for shimming (I currently use 5/16 Bits and my current one hasn't needed to be sharpened in a while).



Actually I don't own one either !  However I have just bought the material to make one.  So this is going to be my next project.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/qctp-myford-lathe-22047/


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## goldstar31 (Jan 17, 2014)

BaronJ said:


> Actually I don't own one either ! However I have just bought the material to make one. So this is going to be my next project.
> 
> http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/qctp-myford-lathe-22047/


 
 I've already got one which was bought in period of mental aberration. 
 I've got a sillier one for a single tool with a rocking thing which makes me sick that came with all daft Myford toys and a rather nice set of tool holders which hold 4 tools at a time and were made from three slabs of steel each- and a few sockets screws to hold the tools in place packed up to tool height with recycled beer can metal( which I have enjoyed creating). I've got one of those little George Thomas parting tools at the back of the Myford- which is adjusted( rarely) by tapping the blade after doing this highly complicated touch on my grinder. 

 You see I've also been there- worn a teeshirt when the sun was at its meridian and had a lathe saddle with attendant teeslots which a previous owner had-- warped.  I can tell you that I learned more about scraping and tee slots than can be credited. 

 You see, or don't, that a lot of rigidity is lost by all this rigmarole about QCTP's and so on. I simply cannot throw the confounded thing at my neighbour's cat because it is nice. But you get the idea!:wall:


 Wearily 

 Norman


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## Walltoddj (Jan 17, 2014)

BaronJ said:


> I'll second that !
> 
> I've yet to build an engine.  I've built other things, mainly tools.  My current building project is a mill tramming tool.  Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...
> 
> Its very much a part of my learning by doing it !  Coupled with advice and help from many many others who have been there, done that, and have the T shirt.



Who ever told you that you will use a tramming tool much ether has a dedicated mill or doesn't do much machining. I need to make one myself because I'll always moving the head for different jobs and I've got two mills. A well trammed head helps to get a smooth cut with no steps and a square cut or drilled hole if it's set up correct.

As Tin said at least in my home shop that is!!

Todd


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## BaronJ (Jan 17, 2014)

goldstar31 said:


> You see, or don't, that a lot of rigidity is lost by all this rigmarole about QCTP's and so on. I simply cannot throw the confounded thing at my neighbor's cat because it is nice. But you get the idea!:wall:
> 
> 
> Wearily
> ...



Hi Norman,

Bet the neighbor's cat can move quicker than you can throw the QCTP at it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Seriously though I have the Myford square tool post that you mention and have had no issues with it what so ever.  My only reason for wanting one is ease and speed.  I know a number of Myford users that have or have had various brands and types of QCTP.  Some have been, in their words, "absolute crap" !  From these people of experience I have come to the conclusion that the design I referred to is the best.
It seems to have all the desired attributes including rigidity.  So that is where I am going to put my endeavors next.  If its rubbish then you can rest assured that I will say so.


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## BaronJ (Jan 17, 2014)

Walltoddj said:


> Who ever told you that you will use a tramming tool much ether has a dedicated mill or doesn't do much machining. I need to make one myself because I'll always moving the head for different jobs and I've got two mills. A well trammed head helps to get a smooth cut with no steps and a square cut or drilled hole if it's set up correct.
> 
> As Tin said at least in my home shop that is!!
> 
> Todd



Hi Todd,

In that case watch this space.  I will try to do an acceptable drawing of mine and some photos.


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## goldstar31 (Jan 18, 2014)

BaronJ said:


> My only reason for wanting one is ease and speed. I know a number of Myford users that have or have had various brands and types of QCTP.


 
 If that is the case, why has this concept not spread to the actual sharpening of tools?  In a vague Quixotic way, I have or seen the odd tool and cutter grinder. Some have magnetic holding bits, some have electro-mechanical bits whilst others are the classic 'bolt' in some form or another.
 None have Quick Change Tool Holders. :hDe:

 Am I tilting at windmills?

 Cheers

 Norman


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 18, 2014)

Guys lets not get into comparing sweet apples to sour grapes.  
I do not expect some debates to ever be settled.  And that is OK. 
Everyone here is the foreman , manager , purchasing agent, and janitor of his or own shop. We each need to manage the shop as wee see fit. I encourage all to take notes. Take notes as you read here take notes as you machine. write down what works for you and what does not. 
Lets not lose sight of the real goals her that is to learn and help others learn to build model engines. And lets not forget it is a hobby and needs to be fun. 
Our choises are based on our available hobby time our skill/experience level and our budget. These factors vary greatly from person to person and over time. 

I learned  first on a lantern tool post then quickly switched to the QC type . I think the school was switching over at the time but it may have been a case of do a few cuts the old way  to appreciate the modern methods. 
I was taught in school how to sharpen HSS there were no indexable inserts in school. 
My first home lathe was /is I still have it a humble grizzly 7 x 10 . I had no fun shimming tool height. I quickly changed to a QCTP. 

So lets all remember others perspectives. If a guy is here and a doctor or lawyer and has only a couple hours a week in the hobby shop indexable inserts may be the way to go for him. On the other hand a retired machinist is going to have much more shop time to sharpen his or her own tools. 

We are not here to tell others what to do just help them find the answer that is right for them. 

IMHO we all tend to be quick to tell others what works for us . But lets remember there are many situations and perspectives to be considered.

It is these varied perspectives that motivates me to ask for introduction from the new folks . If We have an idea of there life experience we can better give advise. 


Tin


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## OrangeAlpine (Jan 18, 2014)

I learned on lantern tool posts some 50 years ago.  Never saw a 4 way until I got the Enco.  I had no idea - took a while for me to understand the TOOL is clamped in the 4 way.  Not the tool holder.  The lantern provides more flexibility - both in setup and tool rigidity.  A person can learn to get by with either.

But I made a direct mounted tangential tool holder.  What a difference a massive, direct mounted tool holder makes.  So, I'm experimenting with that concept and love the results.  Suddenly, parting is no big deal.  It looks like I'll never get around to quick change.  I'm more interested in tool performance than speed.  

To each his own.  

Bill


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 18, 2014)

> To each his own.



My point!  we all need to figure out what works for us. And it is fine to share that. But we all need to realize that our best choice may not be someone else's best choice. And respect others views and choices.
Tin


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## Lakc (Jan 18, 2014)

Tin Falcon said:


> My point!  we all need to figure out what works for us. And it is fine to share that. But we all need to realize that our best choice may not be someone else's best choice. And respect others views and choices.
> Tin



Indeed. There are a lot of different variables that go into each "home shop" as well as the projects we each take on.

For us still working stiffs, time is the biggest obstacle. It is, afterall, a hobby, and work, family, household chores, etc. have to come first.

I went to an auto mechanic trade school, the first lesson on the first day was sharpening drill bits. You were graded on how well it produced a ribbon chip when you were done with it. To this day, I will resharpen my own drills above 3/8 or so, but below that size its not really worth my time as they are too cheap to replace. 

I grind my own lathe toolbits on a standard old import bench grinder, so again, for sizes 5/16 and less its not much trouble, but for general work and larger sizes I use inserts most of the time. If I could afford to part with the cash for a "real" toolbit grinder I would probably use them more.

I used the lantern toolpost for years, but time was of essence, and I wasted plenty learning how un-rigid my setup was. I built my own toolpost holder because it saved time setting tool heights that had to be adjusted depending on how heavy a cut I was taking. 

I worked for years without a DRO, but time again loomed in the background. I could not always break myself of the habit rushing through certain things. There is plenty of backlash that I didnt always compensate for correctly, and I swear those dial markings are getting smaller every year. I saved up and bought a DRO last year. I spend most of my time cutting now, and not wondering where the table actually is. I make less scrap, center work effortlessly, and switch glasses far less often. If I had fresh leadscrews, half nuts, and saddle ways I might not have had to invest in the DRO, but it has made me more productive, and made things much more enjoyable.

All these decisions were made to address specific problems. Anticipating problems is always a worthwhile exercise, but will rarely be 100% effective. In reality, there are just too many things, from too may different branches of science to account for. For someone starting out in the hobby, I would say do what you can with what you have. Even if its just a file and a drill. Let practical experience determine your needs. The difference between you and that grizzled veteran over there is he has made a whole lot more scrap then you. In this business, you have to fail to learn, because the most valuable thing you learn (aside from safety) is where your own thought processes failed to account for some variable.


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## Walltoddj (Jan 18, 2014)

How many have seen or used a four tool turret holder? I ran one on a Warner Swasey No.3 Turret lathe oh what fun it was, the bad part was having to come in the next day and reset up machine because the owner thought he come run it fast than me with a form tool, never did work I was fast by far with the 6 drill turret and the four turret tool holder. Now I have a Lantern as you call it, a four tool block, and a QCTP all have their good points and bad I find it easier to use the lantern if I'm using a center an need to cut to the end but QCTP is nice for my dedicated tools.

Todd


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## BaronJ (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi Guys,



> My current building project is a mill tramming tool. Yes I've been told that it won't get used very much and that I don't need one because I can do this...


I've done a drawing for this.  But will start a new thread.
See "Mill Tramming Tool"
Thanks:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/mill-tramming-tool-22563/


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## John Rus (Jan 19, 2014)

Walltoddj said:


> How many have seen or used a four tool turret holder? I ran one on a Warner Swasey No.3 Turret lathe oh what fun it was, the bad part was having to come in the next day and reset up machine because the owner thought he come run it fast than me with a form tool, never did work I was fast by far with the 6 drill turret and the four turret tool holder. Now I have a Lantern as you call it, a four tool block, and a QCTP all have their good points and bad I find it easier to use the lantern if I'm using a center an need to cut to the end but QCTP is nice for my dedicated tools.
> 
> Todd


 
Funny you should say that because I finally got a lathe (two actually), it's a Warner Swasey no.3 turret lathe. The one that's real accurate is a typical turret lathe without the threading capability and the other which has much more use (don't know how bad it is yet) has a threading gear box, which I like very much.

Hopefully me, my brothers and my Dad will finish painting the "nice one" today. Keeping my fingers crossed.

When It's all done I will post pictures of it.

Cheers,
John.


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## Walltoddj (Jan 19, 2014)

John Rus said:


> Funny you should say that because I finally got a lathe (two actually), it's a Warner Swasey no.3 turret lathe. The one that's real accurate is a typical turret lathe without the threading capability and the other which has much more use (don't know how bad it is yet) has a threading gear box, which I like very much.
> 
> Hopefully me, my brothers and my Dad will finish painting the "nice one" today. Keeping my fingers crossed.
> 
> ...



Sounds great you will like that lathe a lot if you do production runs or in the home shop a lot of the same part. When you cycle the rear turret I found if you hit the lever good and solid it pops nicely into the detent, some of the others that ran this lathe always had a problem not making the detent or shooting past it. 
Yes I'd love to see the pics when your done or before to it brings back so good memories that's a good solid and useful machine. I spent my first year in a job shop running that lathe.




Todd


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