# What Makes a Hobby Machinist?



## rake60 (Apr 25, 2012)

Reading through the boards here, I see a lot of posts from members who don't think 
they have the skills or experience that is needed.
I was a job shop machinist for 18 years before building my first running model engine.

My "exception" record at work was one of the thinner folders in the employee permanent record files.
I had an inspector tell me that they never checked my work. I didn't need to hear THAT!
I don't know if that was skill or just plain ego.

The tightest tolerance I had at work was a +.0000/-.0002" size.
2 tenths of a thousandth is pretty tight. 
I didn't want to keep it within tolerance, I wanted to split that tolerance right down the middle.

I treated every size that way. If it was a scale dimension, +/- .015", I was cutting for dead center.
If I missed it that was OK, but every fit was a personal challenge.

I have lightened up a whole lot since those days but the skills that came from it have given me the 
confidence to rip into just about anything knowing the outcome will be positive.

Skill and confidence come from practice.
Chuck up a piece of 1" round stock and cut it to .950" +/- .0000
If you miss try again. 
Cut it to .900" +/- .0000
Keep cutting until it gets too thin to be stable.
It doesn't really matter if you hit or miss the size, it's just practice.
Before you know it that size will become much easier to hit.

Every material and machine is different.
On some material / machine combinations if there is .010" left you may learn that a .0055"
depth of cut will hit the size every time. It may be the other way at .0045" depth of cut.

Chuck up a lump of scrap stock and just have fun with it.
Practice makes perfect and there is always the opportunity to expand your vocabulary in the
process.

Or am I the only one who does that.  

Play with hitting the size long enough and you'll never worry that about again.
Then you start beating yourself up because the finish isn't as good as you wanted it to be.
It NEVER ends, if it did would it be any fun? 

Rick


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## panofish (Apr 25, 2012)

At times I envy you guys with all those years of experience (since I have none on the job.. I'm a computer programmer by trade).
But, then I realize one of the things I love most about the hobby...

I enjoy the learning process, it's the journey, not the destination. 
Everything is new to me and I have so much to learn... my journey will be exciting and long.


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## ProdEng (Apr 25, 2012)

Rick, you have revealed the most important secret of machining, attitude. If you don't set out to do well you surely won't. To hit a dimension I creep up on it gradually even if I have to cut .001" at a time. If you take .001" at a time you can't be out by more than that. On the lathe, if you offset the top slide by 6 degrees and use the top slide to apply the cut it is easy to apply .0001 cuts. Now wether your machine setup will actually take the cut is another matter.


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 25, 2012)

Patience, perseverance, and practice. There are many paths to setting up a home shop and building the first engine. I learned a bit later in life than some and a big head start on others. I was 37 when I went to the USAF basic machining and welding school. I only worked as a full time professional machinist for about a year. And a pro welder about the same. and I too have had to work in tolerances of plus a few tenths minus nothin' 
I started three engines before finishing one. have more started than I am willing to admit. 
Start simple have fun pick a set of plans make a part and make it well. if it is good move on to the next one. If you flubbed it make it over. Eventually you will ether hit a road block or have a finished engine. then you have to choose .take a break and start later, push on whatever it takes or start another engine and come back and finish later. Does not really matter as long as it is fun and you are learning. Home model Engine machining is like a college engineering lab. no mistakes just learning experiences. This is not a race , competition or a place to make better toys than the next guy it is about personal hobby time and having fun the only person you need to please is the one you look in the mirror every morning. 
Tin


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## maverick (Apr 25, 2012)

Rick is right on the money and his method of learning gives you something to keep your attention on the job.
  A variation is trying different tool geometries to learn how they work.

  Regards,
  Maverick


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## Don1966 (Apr 25, 2012)

All of you experienced machinest I envy. You have gone through all the trials and tribulations of becoming craftmen. I look forward to machining the next project after I complete one. As a Electrician and Electronic Tech I have always had the drive to learn my trade and learn it well, and after 45 years I still learn the new technology. Now I am trying to apply myself to learning to be a machinest and applying myself a I did in my career. My efforts are to read as much about machinest as possible and apply what I have learned to machining. I have always taken pride in how and what I build. Not saying sometimes I have to accept what might not be suitable to some of you, but at the time it is the best I can do. I will not beat myself up about it, but I will strive to do better on the next project. When turning a part out of raw stock I will try to make that part to the closest tolerance I can, if I fail the next part will be closer then the next. And I have learned through the years at my craft that the finished parts must also look finished. So applying this to Making models I will spend more time finishing then I do making. This is the part I look forward to next to seeing it run.

Rick thank you for you great write up. You have pointed it out all to well. When this hobby becomes unejoyable its time to hang it up. It does take a lot of patience and time to achieve your goal. And I have to admit I get a lot of the #^*+%#> moments, but I have had this in my career. Blow it off and get after it again. 
I hope to get as good one day as these great craftmens I have see here and the only way for me is to keep Learning and building models.

Regards Don


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 25, 2012)

Teaching​We are not in it for the income​We are in it for the outcome !​Tin


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## steamer (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi Rick,

Couldn't agree more. I've practiced just like that , often with the part I'm cutting.

Shoot large on diameter, but nail it....as close as you can.  Plan the cuts as you get to size, pay attention to how the machine and the part behave
as you do it.  OK you nailed it...now go to the REAL size you want using the same process......always feels much more deterministic when I do that.


Dave


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## Blogwitch (Apr 26, 2012)

Having been doing this for well over 40 years, I reckon I know about 1% or maybe 2% of what there is to know about machining, the other 98% sometimes comes as a bit of a mystery to me, as there are processes out there that I could only dream of doing.

I reckon almost all the skilled machinists on here will admit to the same sort of thing, some will know a little more, some a little less, depending on what processes they have been involved with during their lifetime.

So all you ones that think you know nothing, what have you been doing all your lifetime? I am sure a few of you know a lot more about those elusive processes than we old timers do, so it is up to you to let us in on your secrets, you teach us rather than the other way around.

We all have something to offer, even though it might only be you showing us your latest rough creation, but be proud of it, we all had to start somewhere.

I was always told, and I try to do it, learn at least one new thing every day. So at the end of a year, you should know 365 (disregarding leap years :shrug new things that you didn't know a year ago. Multiply that by a lifetime and you will end up like me, knowing only 1% to 2%.


John


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## Ken I (Apr 26, 2012)

I think Rick's intention was to encourage those overawed by what is displayed on this site - as Bogs said, individually we know very little - machining is not a skill like the ability to paint a picture but something that everyone can learn to do.

The collective knowledge and artistry (I can only copy) and encouragement on this site is what helps all of us achieve things we might not accomplish on our own.

Many years ago when facing a rather daunting project, an old hand said "its all just nuts and bolts" - nothing is really that daunting if you break it down into its component parts.

And we are all here to help !

Ken


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## lazylathe (Apr 26, 2012)

Great post and encouragement Rick!!! ;D

Myself having no machining experience at all and only a basic woodworking background
to go on find all these new machines in my basement quite daunting!!
I love the look, sound and smell of them.
I loved restoring them and making them functional again.
Now comes the time to use them!

Step up to the Imperial Fighter (can you tell i grew up on Star Wars??)
Now how much is a thou??? I have no idea...
Tell me to take 0.1mm off and i can do that fairly easily.

So for me it is learning a whole new system of numbers as well as the machines.
Plans with fractions on?? Come on!!!! ???
Going to have to get a fancy fractional caliper and find the number!!
Sometimes feel like a Jeopardy contestant!! :big:

But it is fun!!!
Even though i have not really made anything yet, i have used the machines to fix stuff!
For now i am working on Catminer's Fizgig and i have it running much better!!
So small successes at a time!!

It is going to be a long but fun journey!!
And i am here for the long haul with all my questions in tow!!! :big:

Thanks to everyone that shares so freely and makes this place so great!!!

Andrew


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## gbritnell (Apr 26, 2012)

Good thread Rick,

What makes a hobby machinist? More to the point what makes a machinist? 

When I worked for a living I like you always tried to split whatever dimension I was given and have always applied that to my work. Could I do it on the first day or the first week or month, not at all but with practice came the ability to do so. 

I have been at this endeavor for almost 50 years now. I was fortunate enough to learn from the 'old timers' who were some of the best general machinists around. By that I mean they could run a lathe, a horizontal mill, a vertical mill, a surface grinder and many others. Along with their machining knowledge came one of the greatest skills as far as I'm concerned and that was problem solving. Not every job is a matter of chucking up a piece of stock and removing metal. Sometimes its figuring out how to hold a complex shaped part to do 3 or 4 different operations and still have something to clamp to. 

What a lot of 'youngsters' and by that I mean beginners, young or old, coming into this hobby overlook is the amount of experience it takes to get to a certain point. As has been stated a lot of us come from different working backgrounds, plumbers, electricians, carpenters etc. With each trade comes a learning period, some longer than others but still to get to the point of perfection with each comes years of practice. 

Years ago I overheard several people from this hobby talking at the NAMES show and the conversation was about awarding prizes for machining accomplishments. One person stated that he didn't think it was a good idea because it would chase away some that weren't able to compete at a higher level. One of the others had a different input saying that no matter what you do in life there will always be someone who does something better. Should this hold you back from trying, absolutely not. 

Every time I see work from the likes of Lou Chenot, Jerry Kieffer, Find Hansen etc. I marvel at what has been done. Does that stop me from machining? Absolutely not! I do what I do because of a couple of reasons. First and foremost it's because I enjoy the heck out of it. Second, when I build something and solve problems to get there I'm proud of what 'I' have accomplished. 

Everyone on this forum has made a contribution whether they realize it or not. Even with my years of experience when I read a thread where a beginner asks "how do I do something", I think to myself "how would I do it". That is part of the learning process and as John said evey day is a learning process, if you want it to be. 

George D. Britnell


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## Mosey (Apr 26, 2012)

As one who knows much less than others about this hobby, I frequently screw up the work by not doing things in the right sequence. I wonder if there might be some suggestions along this line that you guys could make, even though you can generalize too much without knowing the specifics.


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## b.lindsey (Apr 26, 2012)

Great thread Rick, and one that I hope will draw the attention of both the less experienced as well as the more experienced among us. As John, said there is always more to learn, better ways to do things, and each morsel of both the successes and failures adds to the confidence to grow and do more and more complicated things. Unlike many here, I didn't come up in a trade or have any experience around machine tool until my mind 30's. I can well remember the nervousness at doing even the simplest task...but fortunately I had others around who were willing to teach and show, and like most I have certainly contributed to the scrap pile many times and continue to do so, though hopefully less frequently. AS George pointed out, so much of machining is figuring out the puzzle of what to do first and how, so you don't box yourself into a corner...and while much of that can only be gained through experience, it is one of the most satisfying aspects of the hobby when it turns out well ! Whatever one chooses as a hobby, whether it be maching, golf, fishing, woodworking, etc. I firmly believe the same rules apply...don't be afraid to ask questions, don't be too proud to learn from others, and don't be afraid to stretch some and try new things, even if it results in falling on your face a time or two.

Bill


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## Blogwitch (Apr 26, 2012)

Mosey,

The way I get around the problem is a simple notebook, not on straight drilling or machining exercises, but where a bit of swapping about is involved.

I machine the part in my mind as best I can, and note down each of the stages.

Then I will go thru my notes and make sure that what I am doing isn't going to interfere with the holding at any later stage. After a hour or so of swapping things about, I usually have been through the machining process in my mind at least three times, maybe more. 
Only then will I put tool to metal, maybe weeks after I have made my notes, but by doing that, I know it is going to go through with no hiccups at all.

Like the old carpenters motto, measure twice, cut once. Mine is, think about it well before machining.


John


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## lazylathe (Apr 26, 2012)

Mosey  said:
			
		

> As one who knows much less than others about this hobby, I frequently screw up the work by not doing things in the right sequence. I wonder if there might be some suggestions along this line that you guys could make, even though you can generalize too much without knowing the specifics.



+1 for this Mosey!!!
I spent quite a few nights trying to make the thingy that goes inside the piston that is connected to a linkage.
Looked dead easy and i went over the steps a few times.
Ended up making 3 of them before i figures it all out!!! :big:
By the time i am done i will be able to go into my own scrap salvaging just from the boo-boo's!!! :big:

Andrew


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## Troutsqueezer (Apr 26, 2012)

Accuracy isn't at the forefront with respect to my interest in this hobby. What I enjoy the most is thinking about the set ups. I love to mentally go over all the possible ways to set up the work pieces to get the cut I need. My favorite activity (wrt this hobby) is perusing this forum and checking out all the ingenious ways people can come up with to hold down those hunks of metal. Those that impress me the most are screen-captured and placed into MS OneNote. Some are extremely creative, some are amusing, and some are so simple that I am amazed I did not think of them myself. I like those the best. For me, machining is a big puzzle game, only there are metal chips flying into my clothing, landing on my skin and making me jump. 

Achieving really tight tolerances doesn't excite me as much. The possible reason for this is because when I am done with an engine, mostly what it needs to do from that point on is look shiny and bright up there on the display shelf. Of course, it is nice if it can actually run - and all of mine do - but that isn't a powerful force that drives my interest here. 

-Trout


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## mklotz (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm in concert with Trout. My primary satisfaction comes from setup design and conceiving and creating new tools. Like Bogs, I design the entire sequence of holding and machining a part in my mind before I actually do anything. I used to do it on paper - still do for very complex parts - but find I can do most of it my head now. It's a great way to wile away the time in the dentist's chair.

Another hint I'll offer to novices. Professional machinists can, at least in theory, teach you a lot. The problem is that so many of them are far better machinists than they are teachers. What we do in our home shops is completely different in so many ways from what is done in a commercial machine shop. Yes, we're both cutting metal with similar tools but they're working to tolerances and within time constraints that, for the most part, we don't have. Unfortunately, many of them will willy-nilly apply the experience they gained in their venue to our problems. Whenever I see advice from one of these boffins, I immediately ask, "How can it be done more simply without the need to own a boatload of super expensive tools?"


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## Mosey (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, Marv, what you say is right on. There is a professional machinist down the road from me who I used to go to to watch and learn from. He surely knows his stuff, as he is producing high quality stuff commercially in a small production environment, but here's the rub. He is not a teacher, good or otherwise. His attitude is what you do is "no good, wrong, and you are stupid for not getting it right"! 
I observed that the Scouts he supposedly mentors also resent his instructional style. and went to another machine shop for internships. What a shame because he has so much to teach but can't accept those that may not be as talented or know as much. For me, the accepting, tolerant style of the guys here are all the more appreciated and valuable. Thanks!


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## 90LX_Notch (Apr 26, 2012)

What makes a hobby machinist?

This subgroup (building working model engines) makes one more of a machinist then other hobby machining endeavors. To make the parts and fit them so an engine runs requires a lot of machining skills. The fixturing and tooling requirements are also great. All of this is closer to what a real machinist is then guys making brackets for their race car etc. 

I started three years ago when I bought my lathe and drillpress. If I hadn't come across this site, I wouldn't have 1/1000 of the skills that I have now. I think back over all of the tooling, fixtures and methods that I had to come up with to make parts for my engines, as well as, the skills that I developed while making them, and it's been quite an education. Building model engines forces you to develope machining skills.

But, like most anything it's a process. Start at A (simple wobbler) and work your way to Z (complex multi cylinder IC) as you build your skills.


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## pkastagehand (Apr 26, 2012)

Ken I  said:
			
		

> - machining is not a skill like the ability to paint a picture but something that everyone can learn to do.



Without intending to start an argument in psychology or philosophy or anything, I only agree with this statement up to a point. I work as the technical for a theatre dept. in a small college. That means we build the "sets" or scenery for the plays the department performs. I get students with little or no skill in carpentry (we sometimes do some metal stuff too) and try to teach them to build scenery. I can teach them the basic skills, yes. Once they seem comfortable with that I can keep adding tidbits of info, advice to improve accuracy or make their job easier. But there often seems to quickly come a point where I have to let them fly on their own. Some keep growing and learning, others barely get past the "basics" and just don't seem to "get it".

I think using tools (of any kind) to build/create is not unlike painting or music. Some have a "talent" for it; some don't. I have a few basic skills. If I keep doing the same things long enough I get better. I have a friend that makes just about everything I do look like a child's attempt when it comes to tools. I look at some of the projects displayed here and think to myself; "I'll never get there".

But, to me, home shop machining (or any hobby) is--to quote or paraphrase someone else in this thread-- "all about the process". If I'm enjoying myself, who cares if I make the same things as others, or if mine looks as good as someone else's. I'm pleased enough when it is completed to the best of MY ability and that is what counts. So, enjoying the learning curve, being pleased with what you create, trying to improve your skills and having a project to occupy the brain and hands when you can get to it. 

Probably just said they same things as everyone else but in a few different words.

Paul


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## Ken I (Apr 26, 2012)

Paul,
    My comments are indeed myopic, I can design and build complex machinery but I can't paint worth a damn or carry a tune in a bucket.

Having said that I still hold that most can master any skill through dilligence - to workmanlike levels.

I have seen machinists that enter the realm of artistry in their abilities.

I worked with such a machinist - one day chatting to him over his lathe (while he was working it - not good practice) - he casually machined a 0.125" x 45° chamfer in an azimuth mount without any reference to his dials or measuring equipment by turning both dials simultaneously as if he was breaking an edge - whilst simultaneously chatting to me (who says men can't multitask).

I said "Len - thats a precision angle - not a chamfer" [ It was tolleranced to 0.125 ±0.005 / 45°±½°] he looked at me balefully, took it out of the chuck, pointed to his eye and handed me the part and his vernier - to my surprise it was spot on - he did 20 in a row and I inspected the entire batch thouroghly - every one was smack in the middle of the tollerance.

Now I can't do that but I can easilly machine a 0.125 x 45° chamfer - but there is a difference.

And like you said we do this hobby to please ourselves.

Ken


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## rake60 (Apr 26, 2012)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Teaching​We are not in it for the income​We are in it for the outcome !​Tin



I really like that! 

Bogs is spot on about the 1% to 2% knowledge of machining after decades of practice.
As I said in my original post, every material / machine combination is going to be a little different 
when it comes to consistently hitting a size. That is all part of the learning curve.

If you can consistently hit a size on a hobby size lathe you would be able to do it much easier
on an industrial machine. There are companies all around world begging for skilled machinist to apply.

You never know where a hobby could lead to.

Rick


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## Maryak (Apr 26, 2012)

Mosey  said:
			
		

> As one who knows much less than others about this hobby, I frequently screw up the work by not doing things in the right sequence. I wonder if there might be some suggestions along this line that you guys could make, even though you can generalize too much without knowing the specifics.



Mosey,

In another thread you have offered to assist with engineering drawing and layout. IMHO house, car, boat, plane, model engine etc. have to be designed. Some of us can do this as we progress from one piece of metal to another, (no drawings involved), most of us work from a plan either our own or one already available.

As an amateur drawer/designer I tend to draw as I would build. My gut feel is that professional draftsmen must have some idea how there efforts will be produced in the real world so I guess what I'm trying to say is your a long way down the sequence track already based on your knowledge of drawings and blocks etc.etc.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Tin Falcon (Apr 26, 2012)

the great thing about this hobby is there is always a higher level to be achieved. 
tin


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## Don1966 (Apr 26, 2012)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> the great thing about this hobby is there is always a higher level to be achieved.
> tin



Well said Tin,



			
				Ken I  said:
			
		

> Having said that I still hold that most can master any skill through dilligence - to workmanlike levels.
> 
> I have seen machinists that enter the realm of artistry in their abilities.


There are people that work there whole life at a trade and learn very little about it. This is what I call getting by. There is not a person with mental capabilities that can not master a skill,as Ken has said through diligence. You do not master a skill by just doing, you have to apply yourself, and by applying yourself I mean learn the written text about your craft take time to understand all there is to know about it. Seek someone with high knowledge if you do not understand something. Don,t just stop learning about it just because you have done it for 30 years there is new technology coming out every year. We have to learn to reapply ourselves. 

Don


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## rhitee93 (Apr 26, 2012)

I think everything said here is spot on. One thing that I see holding people back from activities that they view as highly skilled is their own lack of confidence.

They think, "That looks hard. I can't do that.", and they don't even try.

I suspect a lot of the folks around here are more like me, and are just to dense in the head to realize they don't know how to do something and try it anyway. Due to some persistence, some experienced gained by jumping in with both feet a few times before, and some inherent ability, I usually come out OK.

Of course, "I bet I can do that", have been the last words of a few people, so I suspect there has to be some balance. However, I think just trying is most of the battle.


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## rake60 (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm a golfer.
A man named AJ Boner is a respected professional golf instructor.

One of his training techniques is to mount a hammer head to the end of a golf club shaft
and set down a golf ball with a 6" long nail stuck through it.

Can you hit that nail with this hammer? 
Of course you can.
Make it a golf club and golf ball, *NOW IT'S HARD TO DO!*

That makes a lot of sense.
Can you sharpen a pencil with a knife?
If you don't take enough wood off the pencil won't work. You're oversize.
If you take too much wood off the pencil won't work. You're undersize.

Do that in a lathe, *NOW IT'S HARD TO DO!*

Or is it?

Rick


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## rebush (Apr 26, 2012)

For me it's the desire to make something better than the last one. Having spent my career meeting deadlines, working at a comfortable pace and enjoying the process, in my mind has made me a better machinist. This is a hobby, not a job when it starts to feel that way I step back and take a breather. The folks that post pictures and desciptions of their builds in progress have been a great help. Machining metal is a little like woodworking in the sense that no matter how big the project it's always made up of smaller pieces put together. Roger


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## steamer (Apr 26, 2012)

It's the learning thing with me. I've always admired the skills involved....I don't have all of them.....not even most of them! :big:

I sure as he()*E love trying them and getting better at them !

When I do gain a new bit of technique or knowledge, I have just as much fun talkiing about it and teaching it to others as I did learning it in the first place. I know I've come a long way from where I was....and there is a long way to go yet!
Don't be afraid to try because you might fail...you can learn a lot from the failure!....just be safe doing it.


Dave


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