# A3



## 1hand (Oct 21, 2010)

Hello folks;

As if I didn't have enough irons in the fire, I figure I would add one more. Since I started doing the CNC conversions on the Mill and Lathe last winter, my 14 old son has kinda taken an interest in what I'm doing down there in the basement shop. Every time I run into a glitch with the computer, I would have to have him come down and help me figure it out. He is into sports and video games like most kids that age, but when I was working on the Mill steppers I asked him if I would like to learn how to solder wires and connections for the project, he said he would try. Not knowing much about that myself and the extra "hands" in my case, I was excited. So after he done the research on the net I let him at it. He done a great job. Now he is in the shop checking stuff out all the time. Couple nights ago we where ready to make the first "CNC" cut piece, so I let him set it up and hit the go button.

Any how............We where both smiling ear to ear. 

I ask him If he like to start a project with me and this is what we came up with for our first attempt at Father/Son project.






Received the book today and did a quick look through, and seems to be very straight forward, but a very complex. Should make for a interesting build.

Matt


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## Blogwitch (Oct 21, 2010)

Matt,

It's always nice when a member of the family starts to take an interest, you will end up with a new 'friend' as well as a son.

The project isn't complex at all, just a load of one or a few off jobs. Just think of it as a collection of single parts, and make one good piece at a time. When it is all assembled is when you can call it complex.


John


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## The Artful Bodger (Oct 21, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> The project isn't complex at all, just a load of one or a few off jobs. Just think of it as a collection of single parts, and make one good piece at a time. When it is all assembled is when you can call it complex.
> 
> 
> John



Excellent advice John which could be applied to many venture in life!


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## Troutsqueezer (Oct 21, 2010)

Matt, I Googled the A3 and that looks to be something I might like to try and build. It looks about right for complexity and size. Kudos to your son for picking that one. 

I wonder if Zee has seen it. Where is that rascal anyway? 

-Trout


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 22, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Received the book today and did a quick look through, and seems to be very straight forward, but a very complex. Should make for a interesting build.



I remember a few years ago standing in the job trailer over a stack of prints about 2 inches thick. An apprentice looked at the stack and said "Man!, how are we ever going to get all this stuff done?". One old timer piped up and said "Same way you eat an elephant kid, one bite at a time".

Break any big job down, it's just a bunch of small jobs. Take it one page at a time and one piece at a time and i'm sure the project will get easier and easier.


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## steamer (Oct 22, 2010)

Great Choice as it was intended as a starting point for the budding Model Engineer. Through the whole article were tutorials on various processes involved in the construction. His Tutorial on Silver Soldering boilers as part of the series was fabulous!

Read up! Make a decision...proceed......don't worry about how far the back of the book is from you....just focus on the next page.

And where is Zee anyhooo..?

Dave


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## Ed (Oct 22, 2010)

Hi Matt I'm glad you are starting the A3. I started the A3 last year. I'm new to metal working.I bought a lathe last year and am going to use the A3 book as a machine course. Had some medical problems this spring am better now. I just received my mill and an getting back into the A3.My wheels are done and the bearing blocks are ready to be milled. I'll be following your build. Have a good day. Ed


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## Troutsqueezer (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm wondering if my mini lathe (7x10) and mini mill would be large enough for this. Is this an excuse to get a larger lathe?


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## Maryak (Oct 22, 2010)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if my mini lathe (7x10) and mini mill would be large enough for this. Is this an excuse to get a larger lathe?



Do you really need one. ???...........................................I mean excuse of course. :

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 22, 2010)

One Hand---I wondered what had become of you. Last year you were building something I had designed (Don't remember what) and then you dissapeared.----Brian


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## 1hand (Oct 22, 2010)

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> One Hand---I wondered what had become of you. Last year you were building something I had designed (Don't remember what) and then you dissapeared.----Brian



Hi Brain. I been gone all spring and summer doing road construction. That's right, I did start on your #33 and got as far as the Fly wheel. Start to cut a few of the small parts and decided that at that scale is a bit smaller than I care to work with. Still may pick it back up again and scale it up a bit. I really like the style of the Mill engines.

I'm going to work on a material shopping list this weekend for the A3, so I can get an order in on Monday. Still sitting here trying to decide on what scale we want to go with it. The book is geared towards 3/4" scale and 3 1/2" gauge. There is also engineering adjustments to build it in 1 1/2" scale 7 1/2" gauge.

1 1/2" scale would be pushing the limits of my 9x19 lathe and SX3 mill. I think it can be done though. There is a couple of 7 1/2" rail clubs with in a couple hour drive of where we live. The 3/4" scale would be lots easier to move and display for collecting. 

A few stats for the A3 in 3/4" scale 
Driving wheel diameter   3 1/4"
Overall length         37 3/8"
Overall width          6 7/8"
Overall height          9 15/16"
Cylinder bore           7/8"
Piston stroke           1 1/4"
Valve gear         Walshaerts type
Boiler 
   Material   Copper
   Tubes     .787"ODx .047"thick x 3 tubes
Firebox     2 1/4" wide x 3 3/8" long
Operating weight:
      Engine 40lbs
      Tender 22lbs



Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 22, 2010)

Here I found a couple video's on the A3 in 3/4" scale to give you all an idea of the size and real steam!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ton2bMbqAdg[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQE2SoziFPs[/ame]


Matt


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 23, 2010)

Dad blast you Trout...and you too Matt!
That is a fantastic project and I will be thinking about it...a lot!
I was wondering where you went off to Matt. Glad you're back.
I will be watching this with very great interest.

Dave...I'm not gone...just haven't had much time. And my shop is temporarily inaccessible. 'my shop'...I like that...just starting to get used to the idea.


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## Troutsqueezer (Oct 23, 2010)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Do you really need one. ???...........................................I mean excuse of course. :
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



I don't need an excuse personally but someone around here, I won't say who it is but her initials are 'Sally', does...  *knuppel2* For years, she's wanted me to make a live steam locomotive to run around her gardens. I always told her it was out of my league since back then I knew absolutely nothing about machining but now that I know _next_ to nothing maybe it's in the cards...hmmm....what's a new JET 9 x 20 cost?


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 24, 2010)

I have always admired Kozo's books.May have to get a copy of that one myself or maybe a shay. There is a shay at Kinzer 12 in to the foot scale. I realty do need to get myself motivated and organized though before starting a long term project. O probably have about six small engines started in various stages. And get comfortable with the cnc Machines and finish them. 
Looks like a great father son project both the CNC an d the A3
And welcome back for the season. 
Tin


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## 1hand (Oct 24, 2010)

Starting to put a pencil to a material list and this is going to be a long term project. Brass isn't a cheap material these days. Though I could build most from steel cause 80% of it will be painted anyway. I figure if you where to build all 5 of Kozo's locomotives from brass and copper, would probably cost you $6000 or more in materials. Then again you spread that out over the next 30 years that it will take me to build all 5, that's only $200 a year. : 

Just like me to always find a way to justify a purchase for the shop! ;D

Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 24, 2010)

I figured just for the Tender through Speedy Metals and Online Metals. With what you can save on different pieces between the 2 places can justify the 2 shipping costs. I'm at about $500 before the copper for the Tender. I think you could do it in steel for around a $100.

Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 24, 2010)

Took the plunge.......... just place the first material order. All steel except for the Bronze bearings. I just couldn't see spending 4 times more for brass which parts are going to be painted anyway. Went with the 12L14 where I could to help ease the machining. Forming sheet steel will be tougher than forming copper, but with the price difference I can have 5 or 6 goes at it. Maybe it was the wrong decision, but I think it will turn out alright. ???

Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 25, 2010)

the sheets im getting are 1018 cold rolled


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## 1hand (Oct 26, 2010)

Well, I had most of the day off from work today due to the rain and 50+ mph winds. So I did some more work on the lathe conversion. About 1pm the UPS guy showed up with my Speedy Metals order for the A3. 




While I was looking it over, I was wondering how the heck I was going to cut the sheet steel when I got to that point. ??? So I did a quick search on the site here and came up with this great idea to turn my horizontal bandsaw into a vertical one. Now with that on the brain I dropped what I was doing on the lathe and started making that.
It turned out great.













Sure wish my lathe was done so I can start carving up the Tender Wheels.
 ;DMatt


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## stevehuckss396 (Oct 26, 2010)

Being a huge rail fan I will be following closely.


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## zeeprogrammer (Oct 26, 2010)

Drat. I popped in again.
I think this thread will be the end of me.


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## 1hand (Oct 26, 2010)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Drat. I popped in again.
> I think this thread will be the end of me.


The end or maybe the beginning of your next Loco Zee :big:
Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 29, 2010)

Pat looks to be a good mod for the saw.

Matt


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## 1hand (Oct 29, 2010)

Boy am I really getting a feel for this steam thing. When I ordered the A3 book I also got a subscription to Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading.

Well I received the first issue today, and now after paging through it, I can see I'm way in over my head!!...lol


Not much going to get done in the shop this weekend. Got to go and close up the camper for the winter, and swing by the deer camp and cut some fire wood tomorrow. Sunday is the big Talledaga Nascar race, but then again there's a TV in the shop........... :noidea:

Matt


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## 1hand (Nov 1, 2010)

Here are the 12L14 round blanks cut for the Tender wheels.





 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 

Matt


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## fltenwheeler (Nov 2, 2010)

Hi

If you did not know, you can purchase wheel and cylinder castings here: http://www.friendsmodels.com/

Tim


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## kvom (Nov 2, 2010)

It so happens I have been thinking about possibly building a loco, and the A3 would be high on the list. There's a live steam club/track about 20 miles from me that I plan to visit for the first time tomorrow. It's a 7.5" gauge track, so, I would be building the A3 in 1.5" scale were I to attempt it. I think I'd want to use steel vs. brass as much as possible.

I'll be watching your thread with interest.


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## 1hand (Nov 2, 2010)

Tim thanks for the link. I have visited that site while planning my build. At 3/4" scale the raw materials aren't all that expensive, so I'm going to try hacking them up myself. The $200 I save will pay for the copper boiler materials. If I ever make it to building the Shay I will look into their cast gears though.


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## 1hand (Nov 2, 2010)

Kvom I will be building with steel except the unpainted parts and the copper boiler. I considered 1 1/2" scale but that would be pushing the limits of my SX3 and 9x19. That and I would like to build all 5 Kozo's locos before I kick the bucket. There is a club 2 hours from me that has 1100 feet of 3 1/2" , 5" and 5500 feet of 7 1/2".


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## Dan Rowe (Nov 2, 2010)

Matt,
Your mention of cast gears made me check the Friends website again he only offers drivers not gears for the Shay but this forum has a good answer for Shay gears see:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10851.0

The CNC method will also be able to cut the Climax gears when you get to that one.

To build all of Kozo's engines sounds like a real fun chalange.

Dan


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## 1hand (Nov 2, 2010)

Dan thanks for the heads up. I just noticed the gears on the drivers in the one pic, and figured they offered them. The link you put up on the CNC gear cutting is awesome. Thm: I never knew anything like that was out there, and the price is very fair for what your getting. I never worked with castings before, and want to machine everything I can myself from barstock if possible. The CNC mill I have should make machining the drives alot easier, "once I get the bugs out, still learning" and being able to cut your own gears would be great. I know this all can be done manually also, but learning the CNC is just as much of a hobby to me as building the loco! scratch.gif

Love your guys Ideas, right up my alley!

Matt


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## kvom (Nov 3, 2010)

I ordered the A3 book today, so hopefully I'll get an idea of what's involved in building the 1.5 version. I think that buying castings for the drivers makes sense.


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## 1hand (Nov 3, 2010)

Gol darn you Kvom! Your talk of 1.5 has me really reconsidering my decision of scale. The main reason I was considering 3/4" was due to the lack of machine size I have. There is only a few parts that I wouldn't be able to machine safely with my machines. I do have a friend across town that has a 12" lathe and a Bridgeport knee mill that would help me out for a few cigars and a case of beer. The only thing I'm out now would be the $10 piece of shaft I cut for the wheels so far. There's more 7.5 track also.


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## 1hand (Nov 3, 2010)

Sorry for my case of ADD. I will be continuing in 3/4" as planned. Kvom I will be a bit jealous of your build though. The real reason is that I don't want to give up any cigars or beer! The thought of lugging 500 lbs of loco around sounded fun though.


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## arnoldb (Nov 3, 2010)

Matt, do carry on  - I'm squarely on board the peanut gallery - look for the dark green with envy guy 

No matter what scale, I'll be sitting slobbering over any loco build log - the more so as no matter what the larger scale is, I'd have to build my own track... In a yard that has 1:15 gradients North-South and West-East :'(

Regards, Arnold


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## shred (Nov 3, 2010)

I've got that book, and look at it every so often.. maybe someday I'll get the patience for something that extended...


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 3, 2010)

Double the size 8 times the material cost. HMM you do the math TEEE HEEE.
Tin


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## 1hand (Nov 3, 2010)

Yup. For what I'd spend on one, I can build all 5 and have some left over for coal and some rolling stock. :
"rolling stock" see I'm even picking up the Rail lingo! :big:


Matt


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## kvom (Nov 4, 2010)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Double the size 8 times the material cost. HMM you do the math TEEE HEEE.
> Tin



But if you take 8 times longer to build it, the cost/yr remains the same.  ;D :

I went out to the local club yesterday for my "maiden voyage" in the RR world. The job of the day was to run the club's diesel loco around the track layout pushing a work car that has a blower mounted. The blower removes fallen leaves from the tracks. It seems that if the leaves remain, then a train rolling over them will press out fluids that make the track too slippery for the drivers to get a good grip. One of the club members mentioned that a 4-driver loco might not be able to pull a heavy train over their layout.

There were two loco/tenders in the storage shed, one a 1.5 and the other a 1.6 scale. It seems that 1.6 is popular as that's the ratio between real track gauge and 7.5" gauge. You can definitely see the difference. These are big, hefty trains. One of them had a prefab fiberclass tender tank, which when painted looks just as authentic as the hand-made steel one.

WRT the A3, it seems a lot of builders start with the tender. Personally I think building the loco first makes more sense as you could steam it with a makeshift tender while finishing the real tender.


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## 1hand (Nov 4, 2010)

Is their concern that the A3 isn't heavy enough or lack of drivers?


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## shred (Nov 4, 2010)

kvom  said:
			
		

> WRT the A3, it seems a lot of builders start with the tender. Personally I think building the loco first makes more sense as you could steam it with a makeshift tender while finishing the real tender.


Well, the book kinda starts with building the tender. I think the idea is to get the beginner builder going on easier work (it even says "first project for the beginner" right on the cover, though I'd suggest an oscillator or two first   )


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## 1hand (Nov 4, 2010)

From what I've read on different sites about the A3 in 1.5 is the tender slope and a place to ride. The length of the tender makes it hard to reach the controls if riding behind the tender. So if I was going to build in that scale I was going to change the shape of tender to be more square box looking to provide a place for your butt to sit, but I'm not building in that scale. :shrug:

News flash..........the other 4 books are on the way. I should be tied up til about 2045 with projects now. Then I'll be 65 and probably settle down and build my first oscillator. That should take me the rest of the way through retirement. :

Matt


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## 1hand (Nov 7, 2010)

Well we are on page 4 already with this thread, I suppose we better get started.

I haven't counted all the parts that need to be made to complete the build, but we will keep a tally as we go.

Machining of A3 parts #1 thru #8.
Tender Wheels.










After getting the basic internal shape, We center drilled, drilled, and reamed to .3125









Matt


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## 1hand (Nov 13, 2010)

Expanded my book collection.




Matt


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## Dan Rowe (Nov 13, 2010)

Matt,
Nice collection of books I have the whole set except for the A3 book not shown.

I am building a scratch 7/8" scale Shay for G1 track using Lima Locomotive Works prints. I will start a thread on this effort soon.

Dan


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## 1hand (Nov 14, 2010)

Any idea's on a finish I can use on the bare 12L14 wheels to keep them from rusting, but still keep the bare metal look? ???

Would an clear coat spray can work? Would that stick to the bare metal without the primer and paint?

Matt


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## shred (Nov 14, 2010)

Boeshield works pretty well, but it's not a finish per-se, more of a protective wax, so not really good for items in used and being handled.


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## zeeprogrammer (Nov 14, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Any idea's on a finish I can use on the bare 12L14 wheels to keep them from rusting, but still keep the bare metal look? ???
> 
> Would an clear coat spray can work? Would that stick to the bare metal without the primer and paint?
> 
> Matt



Good question. I'll be interested in hearing more about that.


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## cl350rr (Nov 14, 2010)

what about nickel electroplating, if you don't buff it out it looks similar to machined steel. just a thought

Randy


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## 1hand (Nov 14, 2010)

cl350rr  said:
			
		

> what about nickel electroplating, if you don't buff it out it looks similar to machined steel. just a thought
> 
> Randy



Never heard of that. Whats involved? Expensive?

Thanks 
Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 14, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Any idea's on a finish I can use on the bare 12L14 wheels to keep them from rusting, but still keep the bare metal look? ???
> 
> Would an clear coat spray can work? Would that stick to the bare metal without the primer and paint?
> 
> Matt



How about a parkerizing process? I use on steel parts and find it attractive. Very easy process to do for the average guy in a home shop, and not very expensive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing

-MB


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## 1hand (Nov 14, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> How about a parkerizing process? I use on steel parts and find it attractive. Very easy process to do for the average guy in a home shop, and not very expensive
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing
> 
> -MB



MB do you have any pics of parts you have done? I read the link you posted, but could you kinda tell me about how you went about it and where you get the solution, how you heat it, and do you reuse it, or is it done after each part?

Thanks 
Matt


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## 1hand (Nov 14, 2010)

Is this what you use?
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 14, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Is this what you use?
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
> 
> Matt



No, no, That's not it. I'll get back to you on the previous post by you.


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 14, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> MB do you have any pics of parts you have done? I read the link you posted, but could you kinda tell me about how you went about it and where you get the solution, how you heat it, and do you reuse it, or is it done after each part?
> 
> Thanks
> Matt



The stuff I use is Radocy brand by Raven enterprises. I have in a 32 oz. bottle. You mix it, 4 oz. to 1 gal. water. Heat in old stainless pot to 160+ degrees then add the pieces/parts for 15 to 20 minutes. Remove and rinse, when dry oil. It easier than making a cup of instant coffee!

One of Many sources.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000M66VYG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

-MB


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 14, 2010)

Matt, yes I do re-use it until its spent.

In my picture post look at picture #2. I used it on other projects but its difficult to locate and provide links.

Since I don't know how, or post my own pictures, I can't post any other examples. The process gives a satin dark gray color.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8849.0

MB


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## 1hand (Nov 14, 2010)

Man thanks a Million for hooking me up. I really like the looks of that finish. Being most of my loco will be of steel may use that on the whole thing. Would give for a different look than what most do for a finish of painting black. It sounds like alot easier than painting also.

A few more questions:

1) Any bad fumes to worry about

2)any special prep to the parts "like wipe with mineral spirits first" or a light media or sand blast

3) do the parts have to be subspended, or can you just throw them in there to get a good even finish

4) do you treat the parts after like you would a gun "light coat of gun oil periodically"

5) do you get the same results with 12L14 and 1018 steel.

6) what about cast or durbar

7) I have a huge turkey cooker pot, but its aluminium, Work or no?

Sorry for all the questions!
Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 14, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Man thanks a Million for hooking me up. I really like the looks of that finish. Being most of my loco will be of steel may use that on the whole thing. Would give for a different look than what most do for a finish of painting black. It sounds like alot easier than painting also.
> 
> A few more questions:
> 
> ...



1) Not that I know of. But read and follow the instructions that will be included with the product
2) degrease thoroughly, and do not touch with your fingers afterward, even if you wash them.Blasting with media is to add texture not intended as a way to clean the surface (the media might be contaminated).
3) must be suspended with wire to get the solution evenly all around the part.
4) yes, oil initially and wipe on a little after you handle the part, just to be sure.
5) I haven't tried it on 12L14 but I think it should work.
6)I haven't tried it on cast iron but I think it should work.
7) No aluminum. You must use a stainless steel pot and anything that will touch the solution.

I use a cheap garage sale 2 QT pot with handle , heat on K-stove, check with a thermometer and turn the heat off when it reaches 180-D, click heat back on when the temp drops to 160-D. Its very easy to do with just a few basic rules to get an even finish

Best time for parkerizing is when "Honey" is out and about! ;D

-MB


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## shred (Nov 15, 2010)

FWIW, there's also a Manganese Phosphate parkerizing option-- it's less seen but makes for a charcoal black color instead of gray. Pretty much the same method of application--- dunk into solution, wait. oil.

I've heard of people painting right after parkerizing since it leaves lots of little pores to grab and hold paint very well.


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## cl350rr (Nov 15, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Never heard of that. Whats involved? Expensive?
> 
> Thanks
> Matt



Matt, small electroplating kits (brush plating) are resonably inexpensive and can be done in the home shop. there are alot of companies out there, for example http://www.caswellplating.com/.

If not here, may be useful on a future project.
Randy


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## 1hand (Nov 15, 2010)

Thanks a bunch MB, Shred, and cl350 for the valuable info.


Matt


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## 1hand (Nov 15, 2010)

Trying to find a Stainless pan for the parkn.

I came up with this $11 beauty, it 12x20x4" will be perfect for the larger loco parts.
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/4-d...-steam-table-hotel-pan-anti-jam/92220049.html

Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 16, 2010)

Matt, I don't mean to disagree with your choice. Since I don't know what the parts look like size-wise so it might be just what you need. I tried a shallow pan like that and it would not balance well on the stove burner, and it wasn't deep enough to suspend the parts I wanted to parkerize. I found that a standard 2qt and 4qt fit my needs, and if I ever need a larger pot I would probably get a large pasta cooking pot like "Honey" uses. I think it almost a foot tall. You also need the ability to pour off the solution into a plastic seal able container for storage when the solution cools. A flat low pan might be a bit tricky to handle. Just some things to think about before you commit to a purchase. Mine came from a garage sale, ugly as sin and all beat up, but stainless steel and 50 cents apiece!

-MB


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## kvom (Nov 16, 2010)

Another option is POR-15


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## 1hand (Nov 16, 2010)

mb I'll use a small pot for most of the parts, but the frame rails are 17" long and some of the cab parts are 7" . They also have deeper pans like I showed. I will be using both magenese and zinc on different parts to have a color contrast. I have a 2 burner camp stove that the 12x20 pan sits prefectly on


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 16, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> mb I'll use a small pot for most of the parts, but the frame rails are 17" long and some of the cab parts are 7" . They also have deeper pans like I showed. I will be using both magenese and zinc on different parts to have a color contrast. I have a 2 burner camp stove that the 12x20 pan sits prefectly on



Sounds real good Matt. I like your idea of using different color treatments for contrast. Another idea would be to paint the larger parts like the cab. The paint could be easily washed off and replaced with another color. You can also paint over the parkerizing to try out different color schemes as it makes a great first step in a painted finish.

Best of luck Matt, I'll be watching with interest as your project progresses.

-MB


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