# Springs and things



## Deanofid (Feb 11, 2010)

Hi all;

I haven't had any engine stuff to post for a month or two, 'cause I have some real jobs to do. 
Thought I would put this part of a job up, since it does pertain to something that needs to be done in 
the shop now and then. I do quite a bit of machining stuff during the course of my regular work.










I make my daily bread working on old cameras. Stuff that was made before anyone ever thought of 
taking film out of cameras and replacing it with a computer. Most of my work involves purely 
mechanical cameras, made even before cameras needed batteries, much less chips and memory cards.

I was a full time welder and part time "machinist" for many years, but my body protested after years of 
bucking iron, so I made a change of direction some time in the early 90's. I have no idea how I put 
camera repair together with welding and machining. It seemed sensible at the time.

One of my typical jobs is repairing shutters, which involves taking them to pieces, like the one in the 
picture above.










This particular unit is a German made Synchro Compur, and this type was last made about 45 years 
ago. The screwdriver is pointing to the end of the broken mainspring. I'll bet lots of repair shops, of 
any type, rely on a fair percentage of problems caused by someone just not listening to their bit of 
machinery, whether it's a camera or a car, or whatever. Something else was originally wrong with this 
shutter that wouldn't let the last operator cock it, so they forced it.  

So, on to what this is really about. A quick demo on making small springs.









With the spring out of the shutter, it can be measured for a number of need-to-know things. Mainly, 
the wire diameter, the coil diameter, how many coils, and whatever other notes may be useful, like the 
direction of any hooks or eyes/loops needed on the ends of the spring.

The original spring is shown in the center of the picture, above. The wire size on this spring is .014" 
diameter. There are a couple of sources of wire suitable for this type of spring, shown here. One is 
guitar strings, which are really just tarted up music wire. The other is regular music wire that is sold as 
that, or some times called spring wire. It's all music wire, as far as I know.

Guitar strings are really easy to get in almost any town. They're very good for small springs of almost 
any type, but they only come in a limited size range. For most modeling needs, you probably would 
not need much outside the range that guitar strings offer. If you want a quick assortment of spring 
wire, go buy every different sized solid steel guitar strings you can find, and you'll have a good start.

Wire that is sold as music wire is basically the same stuff, but it doesn't usually come polished like guitar 
strings. (You don't need polished wire, unless that's what you want for appearances.) 

Regular music wire is usually black, and you can get it at hobby stores that sell supplies for RC airplanes 
and the like.  











The two wire sizes I had on hand were both slightly different sizes than the original spring. One was 
almost .015", one about .0135". I'll make a few spring blanks in both sizes. I always make extras for 
a particular job, in case "someone" goofs.










This is the basic setup I use for making SMALL springs. This way only works well with small wire sizes, 
up to about .025". Larger wire sizes absolutely must be done using a winding jig, for your own safety.

The first consideration here is the size of the arbor that will be used to form the spring coil diameter. I 
do it the simplest way I know how, which is to check the inside of the broken spring using different 
sizes of wire. When I find the wire that fits, I use that size to judge what I think will work. The spring 
wire usually has to be wound smaller than the size spring you actually need, because as soon as it's 
done being wound, it springs open a little bit.

For an example of what I mean, the nearest sized wire I had that fit close inside the broken spring was 
.062" dia. If I wind the new spring on that size arbor, the new spring might be too big in dia. 

So, I used the next size smaller wire I had as an arbor, which was .055" dia. I did make a couple using 
an .062" arbor too, because of a peculiar thing that happens to the wire that will be noted a little farther 
down in this post.

In the picture above, the winding arbor has been mounted in the chuck on the left, with one of the 
chuck jaws pinching on the spring wire. The chuck on the right is not tight on the wire. Just closed 
down enough to keep the arbor from bending when the spring is wound, but still loose enough that the 
arbor can spin freely.

Some safety things that have to be said;

Safety glasses! Tiny wire will go right into your eyeball, just like a needle.

Gloves are okay as long as you are not using the power on your lathe. 

Start with a piece of wire that will be enough to make your spring, of course, but don't have wire 
hanging out and drooping down to the floor, (unless you need that long of a spring). Keep it short as is 
practical. 

Don't let go of the wire when winding until you have let it relax. The small wire size being used here 
won't break anything if you should turn it loose, but it's not good practice, and if you were to do it with 
larger wire, it will scare you at the best, scar you at the worst. 










The piece of wire is now gripped tightly with pliers, and the headstock pulley on the lathe is turned by 
hand to form the coils. Unplug the lathe, turn it by hand, when using this method.

As soon as a coil or two are formed, the wire is moved to the left, as shown in the picture above. This 
keeps the coils tight against each other. At the same time this is being done, pressure is kept on the 
wire, pulling it back toward the operator. You have to pull pretty hard, and keep an eye on the coils to 
make sure they are staying tight against each other.

When the coils are long enough to make the length of spring you need, give it a few more turns, then, 
slowly turn the arbor backward until all the tension on the new spring is released. It will relax a little and 
open up slightly. You must not just let go of the wire when the spring is as long as you need it. If you 
do, the wire will be pulled back toward the chuck, and make a rats nest, not to mention flailing around a 
bit when it does so.

I want to mention again here, you can only make springs that use small diameter wire with this 
method. And again, .025" wire is about the max. Anything larger than that needs a winding fixture. 

Serious!

I have a small setup for winding springs that use larger wire. I'll show it another time. 










When the spring is long enough for your needs, let it relax slowly, and cut off the tail. Then you can 
take it out of the lathe and off the arbor. 









I made five blanks for this job. Ideally, I'll only need one, but since the next step takes a while, and I 
don't want to repeat it if I should mess up when bending the eyes, I make extras. I've been making 
springs like this for ten years or so, and have learned it's easier just to make a few more than you need 
than to start the whole thing over.

You can see a couple there that have a loose coil. That's the reason those two are longer than the 
rest. I just made them a little longer when I saw the bad coil, and I can cut the bad part off later and 
still have a usable spring. 










This next bit, including the following few pictures show the method I use to heat the springs. They have 
to be stress relieved after the winding process, or they won't hold their shape well. If you don't do this 
step, the springs won't be as springy as they should be, and can easily be stretched out of shape.

I make a nest for them using steel wool and foil. Put the springs on one half of the steel wool. 










Fold the steel wool over to make a sandwich.










Fold the foil lightly around the wool to make a loose packet. 










Pop it in the oven. This little toaster oven does a good job on music wire. I put it on its highest setting, 
which is 450f, and leave them for an hour, then turn off the oven and let it cool naturally. 

It takes about an hour and a half, and that's why I make extra springs. The five springs took me about 
10 minutes to make, but 1 1/2 hours to cook and cool. If I only made one spring, and messed it up 
after cooking, I'd have to start all over again.

There is another way to do the heating thing. You can use a small can, like a tuna can, fill it half full of 
brass shavings, put the springs in, and fill it the rest of the way with shavings. It does the same thing. I 
find the steel wool way more convenient.










This is what you want to see when you open the packet. The steel wool should be somewhat blue 
from the heat treatment. The springs that were shiny to begin with will be slightly off color. The springs 
that were black will still be black.

Here's where the peculiar thing I mentioned earlier comes into play when sizing the arbor for winding 
the spring. When you heat this stuff to stress relieve it, it gets a little smaller. The diameter changes 
just a touch. So, if you need a spring that has to be an exact diameter across the coils, you'll have to 
experiment a little with the arbors you use to wind them. If someone had asked me before I had ever 
done this, I would have thought they would get larger. But, they shrink.


Something you married folks should probably know before you do this step in the house. Steel wool 
has a tiny trace of oil on it, to keep it from turning to a ball of rust between the time you buy it and the 
time you get around to using it. That little bit of oil does make a slight odor when you cook it. My dog 
doesn't care about that odor, or, if she does, she doesn't mention it. A spouse may not feel the same 
way.










Here's one of the heat treated springs, ready for the final sizing and pulling out the eyes.
The two brass pieces are for holding the spring. They each have a small round bottom channel filed in 
them so they won't rock around on the spring once it is positioned between them. I've made a lot of 
this size spring over the years. You can see some grooves that look similar to threads have started to 
wear into the slots where spring coils bear against them.

The little tail on one end of the spring is clipped off with flat nosed wire cutters, and it's then positioned 
between the blocks.









The first eye is pulled up. The spring has to be put between the blocks just so, in order for the end of 
the coil to end up in the correct place. You'll have to figure that out for what ever spring type you're 
making.

Then, using a small rod filed to the shape of a screwdriver end, it's wedged between the end coils, and 
levered up to bring up the eye. The clamp has to be pretty tight on the spring to do this, in order to 
keep the second coil in line from pulling up with the first one. Once it is pried up a little, I put a rod down 
the center of the spring, and pry against it a little to get the eye pointing straight out. 










Here's the new spring, and the old one. In this shot, I'm just getting a sense of the position for the 
second eye needed on the other end. The the eye pulling process is repeated.

The new spring looks somewhat fatter in this picture. It's a trick of the camera, though. The new one 
is within .001" dia. of the old one.










Well, that's it. The new spring is done, and by now, it's in the old shutter, ticking away.

Thanks for having a look.

Dean


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## 1hand (Feb 11, 2010)

Dean, 

That's awesome! 

And how timely. You have any tricks on making Compression springs? I need some for a prosthetic thing I'm doing now. I have ordered a bunch of different springs, but having trouble finding what I need. They need to be .240 by .375 long and have a compression load of 5 to 6lbs. Any Ideas.

Matt


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## 10K Pete (Feb 11, 2010)

Dean,
That's great information on small springs. I've only made a couple and have never
reduced the process to the 'science' you have. I've never known about the heat
treat, but now it's clear why I've had trouble with the springs not holding their shape!

Please post about the winder you use for larger wires.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Blogwitch (Feb 12, 2010)

Dean,

What a wonderful post. That has sorted a few mysteries out for me.

Great info.


Blogs


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## Shopguy (Feb 12, 2010)

Dean
Very informative. 
I've never had much luck making my own springs in the past, but with your method there is some hope for the future.
Thanks for posting.
Ernie J


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## BigBore (Feb 12, 2010)

That is , simply put, a great post! (copy/paste/copy/paste)

Thanks a lot.

How many "K's" in Karma? 

Ed


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## AlanHaisley (Feb 12, 2010)

Dean,

The annealing is a surprise. In addition to releving stress in the wire, I guess that it makes it just the right springiness.

Alan


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## Deanofid (Feb 12, 2010)

Hiya folks;

Thanks for your nice comments.

Matt, I'm pretty sure there is a formula for figuring exactly what you want, but I don't know it! 
I have made compression springs, yes, but not quite as many as extension springs. 

You need to use your lathe as you would for cutting screws if you want consistent results with them. You also need a jig that is pretty simple to make. It fits in your tool post, and guides the wire as the arbor turns. 

The strength of the spring you want to make is pretty stiff. How much can you allow for the hole in the center of the spring?  That, and the OD will dictate the maximum thickness of the wire you use. Machinery Handbook may well have the info you need for wire size, and the number of coils for a given travel and compression weight.

Pete;
I'll do my best to get a post up about the jig and using lathe feeds for doing springs with a heavier wire. Some time in the next week or so. 

Dean


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## rudydubya (Feb 12, 2010)

A great post Dean. I've made a few small springs, but never heat treated them. I'll try your heating method next time. And I never thought about going to the music store for music wire. Story of my life... Thanks for the tips!

Rudy


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## joeby (Feb 12, 2010)

Well done, and very useful information, Dean.

 Thank you!

 I've dealt with all sorts of springs over the years, as I'm sure many here have also; but never attempted making my own. Knowing how to wind springs would certainly remove some limitations on design.

 A constant source of amazement in the machining world is realizing that all the things you have learned over the years have barely scratched the surface.

Kevin


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## gbritnell (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi Dean, thanks for the great write-up. We had a bench spring winder in our shop. As an apprentice I was taught how to make springs but nobody ever mentioned about heat treating them. I had just assumed that the tension in the wire was constant even when the spring was wound. I make my own springs from time to time and for compression springs I wind a tight coil for an expansion spring like you have done and after I take it off of the mandrel I grab both ends with needle nosed pliers and then pull. It's not very scientific but it seems to work. The hardest part is getting the end coil to lay flat against the next one. Any tricks for that?
Thanks,
George


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## cobra428 (Feb 12, 2010)

Dean,
Thanks for taking the mystery out of spring making and annealing :bow: :bow:

Tony


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## mklotz (Feb 12, 2010)

Dean mentioned the problem of determining the correct size of spring winding mandrel to obtain a required spring inside diameter. 

Kozo Hiraoka, the genius who wrote all those books on the construction of Shay locomotives, has worked this problem. He wrote an article (HSM, July/August 1987, pg. 30) detailing an algorithm for calculating the required mandrel size.

I've used his algorithm numerous times to make spring winding mandrels and the results have always been spot on. Highly recommended.

I incorporated his calculations into a computer program that's available for free on my website. Look for the MANDREL.ZIP archive and download it.


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## ChooChooMike (Feb 12, 2010)

BigBore  said:
			
		

> That is , simply put, a great post! (copy/paste/copy/paste)
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> How many "K's" in Karma?



This post should be copied to a "Tips Best Of ..." thread !! 

EXCELLENT !! :bow: :bow:


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## BigBore (Feb 12, 2010)

I made a PDF of it and sent it to Dean. Neither of us has figured out how/where to upload it.

Ed


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## Deanofid (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks again for the comments, folks.

It looks like Marv has something for us spring maker types. I won't get to look at it today, but it sure is nice of you to figure up all these useful programs, Marv. Thanks!

I've never used a formula to figure arbor size or wire size. All the springs I've made are usually trial and error, unless I have a reference spring, as I used for this write up.



			
				gbritnell  said:
			
		

> The hardest part is getting the end coil to lay flat against the next one. Any tricks for that?
> Thanks,
> George



Hi George, and thanks. 
When I make a compression spring, I do it with one of the lathe feeds used for threading. 

At the first part of the spring, I make about two turns with the coils right next to each other, like for an extension spring. Then, engage the lathe feed and run the length you need for the compression part of the spring. The lathe feed will get the spacing right for you, so you don't have to pull the spring apart with pliers. Of course, you have to figure out the lathe feed ahead of time.

When the compression coils are wound to within one coil width of the end of the spring length I need, stop the lathe feed, and let it wind another two coils nice and tight against each other. Let off the tension and cut the wire.

Take the spring off the arbor, and cut one of the close coils off each end. At that point, the ends will be almost flat, except for where you cut the wire. I use a Dremel tool with an abrasive disc to touch up that last coil on each end so it makes a flat surface, like a long bevel on about 1/3 the diameter of the end coil. Don't get the metal red when you do this.
Then bake it, and it should be good, providing you have got your arbor size figured right.

Dean


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## kendo (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi Dean 
      That was one really impressive write up, Just loved it, and very easy to 
      understand. That's what makes this such a great site, are guys like yourself
      sharing their experience with others.
      I've always wondered how i could make some springs, this I've just
      gotta try. Thanks for sharing.
                   Ken

      PS well deserves a Karma or Ten


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## itowbig (Feb 12, 2010)

hey big bore could u please send me the pdf of this with permission from dean first of corse this was very nice write up and i really enjoyed reading it to the end i want to thank you dean for this great write up it was wonderful.


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## itowbig (Feb 12, 2010)

oh thank you guys so much thats was fast . i have received the pdf and a very big thank you 
 such a wonderful place here all this great learning and great people make this a great place :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


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## putputman (Feb 12, 2010)

To add the PDF file to a post, click on the "additional options" on the bottom of the reply page, then click on "browse" and select your PDF. You can add 4 files.


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## BigBore (Feb 12, 2010)

Well, alrighty then! I think Dean wanted to have it put in the upload area also. I think.... so I'm sure he will read this and decide.

Ed 

View attachment Spring Making.pdf


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## Deanofid (Feb 12, 2010)

Ed was kind enough to make the PDF for this post. Thanks again, Gramps!

I'm not sure where it should go, I guess. In this post, (which is fine with me), or in the files?
Someone can tell me what to do. I don't mind!

Second part of this spring business is coming up directly.

Thanks all for the kind remarks and comments. I'm glad it was so well received.

Dean


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## GailInNM (Feb 12, 2010)

BOTH places would be good and just make it that much easier to find.
Nice tutorial Dean.  Thm:
Gail in NM


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## zeeprogrammer (Feb 12, 2010)

Excellent post Dean. I can't add anything to what everyone else said.

Well...

I could mention that I didn't even think about M&Ms. But that would be lying. ;D


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## kcmillin (Feb 13, 2010)

Concider this post bookmarked. 

Ive always wanted to know how to make springs, guitar strings, whood a thought.

Thanks for explaining this process in such easy to understand detail.

kel


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## ianjkirby (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi all,
 As no-one has posted the following link, I will do so. This is not meant to upstage Dean's post and his work, but to offer answers to the many questions that have already been asked. It is quite a big site, but I think it will repay your effort to check it out.
Regards, Ian.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/intro.html


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## Tad Wicks (Apr 13, 2010)

Certainly not meaning to hijack you post, great info, I thought that I would show a budget spring winder I made years ago out of scraps, It works great using the shanks of drill bits for mandrels. I also use it a lot for tiny tapping and reaming, it can be held in a vice or clamped to a table top. It has been a great tool to have around. Thanks; Tad Wicks


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## steamer (Apr 13, 2010)

Nicely Done Dean!

Thats a good one to keep!

Dave


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## MatiR (Apr 13, 2010)

Hadn't seen this post before - really interesting. For those that want to wind their own, I made a spring winding tool using plans and article by Dwight Giles in Model Engine Builder Magazine March-April 2007 http://www.modelenginebuilder.com/issueeleven.htm

The plans are generic so that one can scale the winder to suit a paricular size of lathe. Mine is a Sherline so I scaled down quite a bit, and changed the configuration to suit my QCT holder. To use, I calculate the pitch of the spring and then use the thread cutting accessory to make precise turns on a mandrel. Choosing the size of the mandrel is a bit of trial and error. It makes lovely springs.
















Regards, Mati


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## Deanofid (Apr 13, 2010)

Since this thread has been brought out of the graveyard, some of you may not know that I did a second part to the article after this one. It deals with winding spaced coils for compression and extension springs using a simple jig on your screw cutting lathe.

Please see Part 2:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8258.0

Thanks for the comments.

Dean


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## MatiR (Apr 13, 2010)

Darn, missed that one too. A nice and simple method which uses the same principles as the Dwight Giles tool. I have seen the professional machinists at work using a similar setup. With the Sherline lathe, the thread cutting accessory is hand cranked so it is ideal for this design.

Thanks for resurrecting the old thread, Mati


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## william_b_noble (Jul 16, 2022)

these little machines were made in the 60s for making springs, you don't have to stress relieve them, they extrude the coils to final size.  the last photo shows the machine in the first photo after "beautification"


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## bluejets (Jul 17, 2022)

Link to a site which allows calculation of dimensions for spring mandrels......

Cheers Jorgo

CGTK - Dr Al's Miscellany


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## Bentwings (Aug 21, 2022)

1hand said:


> Dean, I made a fe springs in the shop too much as you are doing.  The shop had a brand new Hardinge tool room lathe with all the options . It was a fun lathe to run as it had a lot of power for a relatively small machine but was super precision . I used music wire I cot from a piano shop or store larger wirecwasctoughvtobwind and if you pushed too far when it broke it made a terrible mess . Especially if it was very long .
> 
> Noting your cameras I have a Leica 3C  with a removable lense  it has a 1000// shutter speed which was why I got it. I took a lot of  black and white pictures with it. 35mm film was expensive and even more so  with printed pictures. The camera has been lost and found in moves over the years . I don’t know exactly where it is now after the last move . I had a clip on light meter that still worked up untill the last move .  I took so nes stop action shots years ago with it .  I have another camera with a longer lense but it’s missing now too .  I’ve been offered a bunch for $ for both of them but about that time they go missing .LOL.   I’d like to see how automotive coil springs  are made Think they are made  in annealed state then hardened .
> 
> ...


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## Bentwings (Dec 19, 2022)

Very similar to how I made some custome springs for Rc airplane landing gear I didn’t do the heat treat however .


Being a camera guy you probably have run into a Leica 3 c.  I actually have one that still works .  It’s hiding in some “ stuff” somewhere  I got it a long time ago because it had a 1/1000. Shutter I found a tiny light meter tat fit in the top clip it still works too the last time I saw it .   I took some black and white sports pictures and auto racing pictures  using the right film you could take color shots too. They weren’t the best quality it was an expensive camera to have 35 mm film printed especially color .  But it did the job .  It has a focal plane shutter that is pretty amazing operating at full speed  the range finder was pretty small   So you had to squint to use it .  . I’m considering making chain maile armor as a hobby the rings are wound much as you show but slightly larger .  It’s an incredibly tedious thing  fitting thousands of rings together. I as was a welder . Welding these rings that have been bent to butt is very tedious both resistance welding and ultra sonic welding are possible but equipment is expensive . You really need a semi automated system but I don’t have resources for this so I may just purchase maile as needed  it’s very impervious to stab attacks that have happened knights ans soldiers of medieval times slept in maile armor . With smaller welded rings it’s impervious to even arrow attacks except point blank high powered cross bow.  The stuff was so good it lasted 1000 years in various forms  not bullet proof by  nothing element can penetrate. Even meat cutters wear it today


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## Jojo (Jan 1, 2023)

Thanks for writing a great article on this subject.
I’ve made a couple of spring winders and several springs but never heat treated them.
now I will…..


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