# Cole's Power Models - What is going on there?



## chads

So I have finally decided to build a small hit n miss engine. After reading many good things about the Coles products I ordered one on August 5. After 3 weeks and many phone calls to a guy named Ken, it appears he shipped it to the wrong address. When I finally received it last week it was missing the drawings, cylinder and a governor spring. I still have not received the missing parts after two more phone calls...

I am ready to ship this thing back 

Does anyone know of a comparable motor I can purchase?

Thanks,
Chads


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## portlandron

Your not alone. They don't always fallow through on orders. Seems if the have an item it is shipped fast. If they don't the order falls in a black hole never to be seen again. If you call it's I will check on that and if you ask for them to call you they never do. Had some items on order for over 6 months. After last phone call told them to cancel the order.


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## bearcar1

I went well over one year in an attempt top get one of my orders completed with them. It consisted of two full sets of castings for their small H/M engine. It seemed that they had/were experiencing problems with a foundry getting base castings poured. OK, I can live with that, **** happens, but countless telephone calls and emails that went unanswered and even several hand written letters, 14 months later they sent me the missing castings, along with a few other spare parts that I did not order. I returned the extras like a ninny with a note explaining that I would never again be ordering from them. I had spent quite a bit of money over the years with them but after being treated like that, never again. And I haven't. All it would have taken would have been a call or email periodically letting me know what was/had/wasn't happening, but I had to dog them for any information. Never again, I have since taken my business elsewhere. Good luck getting your order sorted out.

BC1
Jim


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## chads

I shipped the engine back yesterday. I also informed my credit card company of the issue I am having with them. I am not certain they will even credit my account. I would imagine it would be hard to stay in business with that kind of customer sevice. If anyone has a complete complete small H&M kit they would like to sell, let me know. I still would like to build one.


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## PTsideshow

Just so people know the "OLD" Cole's was sold as I understand it. When the long time owners left the biz, don't know if it was retirement, or other.
They were a non entity for a while, during which the new owner/s were getting things sorted.

Don't know who etc.bought it. But with the economy and the small casting kits cost and dealing with small founders grouping the pours to fit the capacity of the equipment to use the materials fuel metals in the most economical fashion.

There is a good reason the number of small companies that produce casting kits in this country has been reduced in the last couple of years.

There was the hit & miss engine guys, brothers that got out of the casting business. Blackberry was the name If I remember.

Meyers engine works also is no longer currently operating. They were at a large show on the east coast 2 years ago and didn't sell one casting kit. barely made fuel money, to haul the casting home.

Clarence, retired and moved to Fla with wife and steam launch. At this time they wasn't anybody that wanted to by the patterns, etc or the business.

And from the sound of it at the last large show, there may be a return to the making of engines of all kinds by stock or casting parts yourself!

Tis the way of the hobby world, during a bad economy.


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## cfellows

Haven't bought anything from Coles since the original owners sold it several years ago. The original owners were good to deal with and I never had a problem. Was sorry to seem them get out of the business.

Here are some links to other sites which sell model engine castings:

http://home.earthlink.net/~randyarockwell/index.html

http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=332

http://www.lonestarengineworks.com/Products.html

Don't know much about the first one other than I met the owner at GEARS about 4 years ago. 

I've bought a few things from PM Research and never had any issue. 

The last link belongs to a fella who lives less than 10 miles from me. I visited him a few weeks ago and saw his set up. I think he would be a reliable person to deal with.

Chuck


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## GWRdriver

> http://www.lonestarengineworks.com . . . The last link belongs to a fella who lives less than 10 miles from me. I visited him a few weeks ago and saw his set up.- Chuck


Chuck,
I've corresponded with Maury a few times, about his Corliss model, but unfortunately he discontinued the cast-iron version which I wanted to get. Apparently his iron foundary was no longer willing to produce the castings for a price or quality he could sell. It appears he's now removed the Corliss from his product listings entirely - sorry to see that, but not just anyone wants (or is capable) to build a Corliss. I have seen Keith Spriggs' verison of this engine and it's a beauty. (See attached pic)


			
				PTsideshow  said:
			
		

> Just so people know the "OLD" Cole's was sold as I understand it. When the long time owners left the biz, don't know if it was retirement, or other. They were a non entity for a while, . . . .


I can give you a potted history of Coles. When founder Charlie Cole died the business was left in the hands of son Charles and Betty Coles. It was Betty who was the force behind the business for many years. It was duirng this time that Coles suffered a break-in burglery and all the original Chas Coles models (the 1" Case tractor, etc) were stolen and have never been recovered. When the Coles decided to retire they sold the business to a former part-time employee who it appears had been setting himself up to buy them out for some time, and not in a good way. It appears the new owner thought of the business only in terms of profit (not a bad thing) with no consideration for service to the live steam community and operated on that basis. Based upon reports from customers during that time, and my own experience, stock dwindled, many standard items became unavailable, prices rose, and service and attitude was very poor. The result was an essential closure of the business and lots of hard feelings.

The present owner of Coles, the 3rd owner, bought the business from the second owner and reports from people I know have said that he is a good man and intends to bring Coles lines completely back, and then some, and resume what people had come to know and expect from Coles.

Now, I want to emphasize that what I am about to say should in no way be taken to mean that I don't believe and agree that customers of steam suppliers are entitled to get what they've paid for in timely manner or be kept informed as to delays and why, or get their investment back, there is no excuse for that . . . BUT . . . every economic and industrial factor that bears upon the production and supply chain is working against the model engineering and live steam consumer. Our needs are highly specialized, we have practically no ability to take advantage of economies of scale, providers are constantly subjected to the whims and vargaries of sub-providers (foundaries for instance) and the business economics of their suppliers, and the volume and profit margin for suppliers is so low that hardly anyone can make even an above poverty-level living from it. It is a very difficult business to be in, coupled with a customer base which is about as picky and demanding as any, and I'm not saying they shouldn''t be that way. But I have never dealt with any of the world's most well known suppliers, Coles, Little Engines, Friends, Stuart Turner, Reeves, Fyne Fort, Bonds, etc, who did not at some time or another suffer from supply line failures and delays, and even non-deliveries. That's a way of life, and it will probably get worse before (or if) it ever gets better, but that alone doesn't make any of them crooks. I set my personal cutoff time at six months.  If it doesn't arrive after six months I ask for my money back. If it arrives in stock a week later, let me know and I'll probably reorder.


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## bearcar1

I agree with you Chuck about Cole's being sold. My Grandfather had dealings with the original owner whose name was also Chuck. As a matter of fact I have one of their silver anniversary catalogs in mint condition that Grandpa had thumb tacked to the wall, and that goes well back into the 50's. It is fun to look at the prices and compare to todays. I dealt with Chuck's daughters when they continued on after his passing and it was always a pleasure to speak to them over the phone when ordering. Not once did I have any problems. After the sale and move of the business to Texas is when the train wreck happened and I haven't been back since. It is entirely too bad and sad to see such a legacy come to such ends. PM Research is a very good place to do business with, fast, courteous service. If they do not have something in stock, they will ask if you still want it or not and they follow up on such things. As PT pointed out, it is getting more and more expensive to have castings made at a reasonable cost and in the end, the old timers retire and the hobby dies a small piece at a time.

BC1
Jim


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## chads

I originally considered the PM Research "Red Wing" but I thought it might be too much for my first engine. I would hate to make a major mistake on a 500.00 engine casting. This is why I decided on the Cole's engine. I think I may just bite the bullet and go for the Red Wing 

As a side note...
When I called them on Tuesday, I was told he had not shipped the drawings or missing parts because he did not have them ???. *I gave him my address and phone number 3 times prior*. At that point I told him I would like to send the kit back, he said ok then just hung up on me. That is just plain bad customer service which is why I decided to start this post. Maybe it will help someone in the future...


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## lordedmond

fyne fort went bust in 2007 AFAIK



Stuart


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## putputman

Chads, There are some Associated H & M engines available from a guy who bought Paul Briesch's patterns. I have 3 of them in the build process right now. I just got the third one up & running this morning. The casting set cost $135 including shipping when I bought them. I think the original Briesch casting set may have included castings for some of the smaller details and are not available now with this set. You can see some info on them on:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10521.msg116016#msg116016

The contact is:
Michael Pershinsky
P.O.Box 382
East Petersburg, PA. 17320

Email: [email protected]

Maybe this is what you are looking for.


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## chads

Thanks for the info. I will see if I can contact him.


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## cfellows

Chads, have you thought about building an engine from bar stock? The Upshur engines are pretty straight forward.

http://hamiltonupshur.tripod.com/

Chuck


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## chads

Chuck, I have thought of bar stock as well. I figured I would save a little time with a casting kit. It's not out of the question though.

Putputman - Can you post a picture of one of your water cooled engines you are working on. I think this is the way I may go. It looks like you had some spark plug issues with this kit from what I have read.

Thanks


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## maury

PT, I am still optimistic about the developers/sellers of casting kits. There are still a number of us out there who are alive and well. Of course, the ones doing well are the ones who do NOT treat their customers like crap. Sure things are slow and the strong will survive as long as there is interest in the hobby.

The guy who owned Blackberry Models got too old to continue his business. I hope that happens to me someday too. His work is not lost, he sold it to Bob Bishop of Bishop Repair
in Indiana. I net Bob at Portland this simmer, nice guy. He is working on getting the patterns reworked for his foundry, which by the way is a really big job.

Along those lines, another great in the hobby, Dick Shelly has sold his business for health reasons. I have not been able to find out who has his stuff, but it will show up somewhere down the line. He had some really nice kits. BTW Chad, one of his Galloway kits would make an excellent kit for you.

There was a comment about my Corliss engine. I sold that design to a guy in Florida. He was going to produce it, but there again, it's a lot of work. That was an engine which was too complex for most HSMs to complete successfully.

Chad, go ahead and build the PM Research kit. I can't speak for them, but thy are good folks and I'd expect if you make a mistake they will support you. Don't be intimidated by 
building from castings. if a casting seems complicated, sit down and make a plan before you cut. If you can't figure out a plan, there are a lot of good folks on this board who would be happy to help. Just ask.

maury

LSEW


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## fltenwheeler

Hi Chads

I would recommend the Associated from Mike. You can have it in one of 4 ways. Water or air cooled. And then spark plug or make & break. The make & break cylinders were not in stock when I ordered my 2 kits but he is planning on having some made up and he was running low on connecting rods but should have more by the end of the month.

Tim


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## ChooChooMike

I just talked to another machinist a couple of nights ago. He too has recently gotten rotten customer service from Cole's. Basically the Cole's guy in TX told him to take it or leave it. So, he left it.

A couple of mos ago, I ordered a set of drawings for a Stuart Beam engine I had purchased from a member here. The drawings came a few weeks later. Not the best copies and one edge is a bit chopped off. I've been meaning to call and ask for a cleaner set, but now I'm kinda getting the feeling that I'll never see my request fulfilled 

Mike


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## putputman

Chads, this is one of my Associated Hired Man engines. It is on a temporary set up to run it for awhile.

The plug problem you mention has been resolved. I C-bored the plug hole and made plugs with a longer body and shorter threads. They have been working fine.


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## CMS

A note about Dick Shelly, I paid them a visit about a month ago, and bought one of the 1/4 scale Galloways. Don't know about them being out of business though, they still had quite a few kits and a new model they were working on. Dick himself said that his days of model making were over, but his son seemed to still have intrest in the hobby, and his wife is very knowledgeable about the business too. I wish them the best. 
 Chads, the cost of the Galloway kit will give way to the quality of the castings, which were done mostly if not all by Cattail Foundry in Gordonville, PA. I had Cattail cast some cam gears for one of my big hit and miss engines, first rate all the way. You may also concider the Economy kit from Joe Tochtrop.


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## chads

Hey Putputman, thats a nice looking engine. You do great work! 

Are the drawings any good with this kit? The castings look decent...


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## putputman

Chads, the prints are as good as any I have worked from. I normally redraw all the details for myself. I like to use the drawing to assemble the engine on paper before cutting steel just to double check all dimensions. I also work from different points than are sometimes show on the commercial drawings.

The castings are also very good. I had one flywheel with a void in it and Mike replaced it immediately at no cost to me. You can't get better service than that.

The Associated engine are great runners also. All three run just about identical to each other.

This is the latest one I got running. It runs slow and has many revolutions between firing.


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## maury

NOTICE about Dick Shelly.

I talked with the Shellys on the phone today, and it is obvious I was
MISINFORMED while at the Portland show. THe Shellys did NOT sell their
model business, and are still selling kits. And fine kits I might add. They did
sell the stove pipe domestic kit to Bob Herder sometime in months past, but
that's all. 

If you need a Galloway or Woodpecker hit miss model, they are still available
from the Shellys.

maury
www.lonestarengineworks.com


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## fltenwheeler

maury  said:
			
		

> NOTICE about Dick Shelly.
> 
> I talked with the Shellys on the phone today, and it is obvious I was
> MISINFORMED while at the Portland show. THe Shellys did NOT sell their
> model business, and are still selling kits. And fine kits I might add. They did
> sell the stove pipe domestic kit to Bob Herder sometime in months past, but
> that's all.
> 
> If you need a Galloway or Woodpecker hit miss model, they are still available
> from the Shellys.
> 
> maury
> www.lonestarengineworks.com



Hi Maury

Do you have contact information for Dick?

Thanks

Tim


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## chads

I contacted Mike about the Associated and received an email back that he does not have any connecting rods ready. I'm not sure if he is shipping kits right now as I have not heard back from him when I responded I would like to place an order.

How did you make that spark plug putput?
Is that ceramic or some other material?

I'm am very happy with all of the responses on this thread. Very Helpful!!!


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## bearcar1

Dick Shelley's Woodpecker looks like a nice engine, I may get one for my 'stash'. 

BC1
Jim


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## chads

Richard Shelly & Sons  2835 Camp Road, Manheim, PA 17545 telephone (717) 665-5684


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## fltenwheeler

Thanks Chads, I was looking under "D" for Dick.

Tim


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## chads

I decided to go with an Associated Hired Man engine from Mike in PA. I ordered it today. ;D 
I am anxious to get started !!!


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## Orrin

I've done business with all three owners of Cole's. I got excellent service when Betty ran the operation and I find the current owner in Texas to be equally good. Every item I've ordered was shipped promptly. It really upsets me when something is out-of-stock and needs to be back-ordered; but, I'm happy to say that has not happened to me under current ownership.

I would like to see Cole's survive, so that is why I try to give them all the business I can. They offer one of the wider selections in the hobby.

Count me as a happy customer.

Best regards,

Orrin


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## portlandron

I have to agree with Orrin. If Coles has it in stock it is shipped fast. 

The problem is when they don't have it.

For some reason back orders fall into a black hole never to be heard from again.

They can't or will not answer questions over the phone about what is happening or give any estimate when the might be able to ship the item. I am not talking about a month or two wait but over six months. 

If they would just say it's going to take X number of months that would be fine with me.


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## PTsideshow

Part of the problem is running a specialized, small business. Having to make minimum dollar amount with wholesalers for orders. I know that a number of the ones I deal with have raised the amount a couple to a silly amount. 
They may not want to say that they can't afford to place the order and have no idea when they can. And in this hobby the dollars have seemed to dry up faster than in some others. Mostly because of the cost of the kits.

You then combine the economy with the decline in the number of people that are in it that have disposable income. Older members stopping due to health, age or death.

But there is no reason that a company can't give a simple straight answer. That will not result in bad press as in this thread of the people dissatisfied with the new Coles.

I feel the biggest mistake these companies make is not taking part in the forums, even if they are only reading them as guests or lurkers. They could save themselves a lot of problems, or even their business.


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## fltenwheeler

I know the hobby so I try to check stock before I place an order. I *will not* place an order for castings if they are not in stock. 

Tim


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## putputman

Chad, to answer your question on the spark plug for the Hired Man, I am going to start another thread on Associated engines.


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## chads

That would be great !!! :bow:


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## MachineTom

Two weeks ago I placed an order with coles for the corliss engine, it arrived today well packed, and parts all look good. There were two pieces backordered, with so much work to do I doubt they will hold me up. I'll post my build as it goes along.


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## chads

Coles never refunded my money. I had to open up a dispute case with my credit card company. Best of luck getting your parts. 

I ended up puchasing the Hired Man and it has been going well.

Chads


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## bearcar1

Tom, my advice to you would be to stay on top of your back order religiously. Even though, as you say, you will have enough work to keep you busy, (good luck to you and I am looking forward to seeing your in progress reports by the way) that is how my bad experience began. A phone call to them at least once a month would not be out of line in my opinion. That may sound harsh but the fact of the matter is they are in a business, I understand that. *However*, from past experiences they don't give a rat's ass about two BOed parts on one order and in most all likely hood not follow up in getting the pieces made in a timely fashion. My reasoning is the Corliss probably isn't one of their top sellers due to the cost of the casting sets and so, with a smaller demand, and the foundry not having a high demand for them being poured, your parts will be postponed until such time that the foundry gets around to casting them. I could be wrong here but that is exactly how my orders wound up taking well over a year to fill (absolutely unacceptable in my book. 

BC1
Jim


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## MachineTom

Thanks for the heads up Jim. I intended to give them a month then follow up, I'll just keep after them until the parts are done.

The flywheel is rough turned, and just trimmed the bottom of the crankcase, photos as it goes along.


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## Stan

I no longer accept the "IN STOCK" quote from any supplier. In the last couple of years I have found that term means they know where it is. It might be in a warehouse down the street, in another country or at the factory in China. 

The only recourse is to get a definite delivery date to your door. If they fail to meet delivery, cancel the order immediately. I recently ordered a computer power supply and wondered why they quoted eight days delivery for an in stock item. I was satisfied with the eight days and it arrived on the eighth day but it came from the US and I ordered it from a company in Canada who showed it in stock.


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## Coles

I would be more than happy to tell you exactly what is going on at Cole's Power Models

First I am Ken Rhodes jr  some of you know me as Kenny
Cole's is up and running despite all the rumors and plain bad information that is out and about

Before I get hit with all the problems with service and such, I wish to address everything in the near future 

As of Jan  2016 I will be running daily operations at Cole's and hope to restore it to its former 
glory and once again become the place you trust with your model needs

I would like to update the company with online ordering and catalogs along with many other changes to better serve the hobby

Ken Rhodes sr will still be at Cole's but will be stepping back and taking a much needed and deserved retirement  he is 74 years old and can no longer do the amount of work needed to keep up 

I hope to answer more questions and hope with your help we can move foward and enjoy this great hobby together

Ken


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## 10K Pete

That's great news! I do hope you can bring things back to where they 
should be. When Betty had it, after Charles had to retire, it was still great
with all the things continuing as they should. But when it left Bettys 
hands it sorta disappeared from sight.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Pete


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## kuhncw

Ken, thanks for the update.  It sounds like you have some great plans.  Good luck and please keep us up to date on progress.

Chuck


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## Coles

I do not take over till Jan 1 but you can e-mail me direct [email protected] if you need me other wise use the normal contact info

Thanks again
Ken


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## portlandron

Ken, it's great to hear your plans for Coles and I wish you the best of luck.

I look forward to seeing the changes you have planned for the company and please keep us informed with you progress.


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## Coles

Started a Facebook page for Cole's
Can't post link      maybe because I'm on my tablet 
If you search Cole's Power Models it will show up

Hope to see you there

Ken


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## littlelocos

https://www.facebook.com/colespower


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## Coles

Thank you for the link

Not much on there yet but we will work on that

Ken


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## danjackie173

I recently called Cole's on January 16, 2017, to inquire why I could no longer find their website. The Facebook page says permanently closed. Ken was kind enough to take the time and share what was going on. Ken explained that his son Ken Jr. planned on taking over the business and soon realized how much work it was. Ken Jr. gave it back to his father, Ken. Ken shared that if no one buys the business that it will just go away. Ken shared that he was 75 years old and didn't have enough time for the business. He said that there are about 20 complete kits of the 1 inch scale case traction engine and that he would sell what is in stock. I hope this helps other builders unable to find any information and Cole's.


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## michael-au

Doesn't help when parts are missing from a kit ( challenger V8), been emailing him for months, never replays 
Pore way to run a business


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## Beckerdi

I am a the widow of Martin Becker, the first gentleman to take over Coles from Charlie Cole.  Martin was a famous special effects man (before his Wikipedia site got rewritten and other people took credit for his many groundbreaking accomplishments), and avid steam machinist, collecting and building both 7 gauge trains and stationary steam models.  He got cancer shortly after acquiring the business and it was run for a bit by his employees who apparently didnt care about keeping all the original dies and drawings in order (from what I heard later).  When Martin died 6 months later, I was overwhelmed with two small children and a life-threatening illness myself (Im fine now)and I was told the smart business decision would be to to sell it for scrap.  Instead, I found someone who seemed passionate and knowledgeable about the model-building business, and sold it as is to him, against everyones advice, on a handshake.  He didnt even have the money to pay me, so I agreed to lend it to him, as well.  I felt sympathy for the Model builders I had been talking to on the phone for the previous 6 months, who had their projects half completed, I couldnt just leave them high and dry.  The deal was, after Ken finished paying for the company, then hed buy the museum models that Charlie Cole carefully built with his own hands over the yearsthe perfect, beautiful functioning models used in his catalogues, which I still have.  Of course, once he picked everything up and moved it to Texas Ken found some excuse not to pay me and I really had little recourse, nor time and energy to pursue it.  But I do have the whole collection (complete) even the three-foot long tractor and need the money.  Im wondering what you guys thinkeveryones saying if I break up the collection and sell it off as separate items Ill do better, but if you guys have ideas of places that would appreciate its value as a collection, Id rather keep it together.  I thought of the fact that Coles Power Models might need it for their catalogue, but Id rather not even get back on that guy's radar. Likewise advice on where would be good places to list the items if I do split it up.  Thanks!


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## RonGinger

If  you want to break it up to sell I suggest you look at Cabin Fever Expo. They have become the best US place to sell models and always have many models each year. They have sold some very high end models over the years. Jarred, half of the CF management team, may jump in on this, as I know he reads this forum. I have told my wife to call them when it comes time to clear my humble models and shop.


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## Longboy

This place a possibility for the Cole legacy.

https://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com


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## littlelocos

I would also advise to contact the folks at Cabin Fever Expos.  

BTW, Last year I contacted Coles and to my understanding the whole lot of the operating side was/is for sale -- as a lot -- for one figure, without an inventory of what comes with it or the desire (or possibly ability) to go through to determine what is left.  As much as I'd like to take it on, Joy and I just don't have the means to purchase a failed business sight-unseen, move it to Maryland and try to breathe new life into it.  It needs to be a full-time business and to do that, I'd have to quit my day job.  Another option would be for it to be broken up and distributed via auction so that the businesses still in the Hobby can pick up the parts that would fit well with their offerings and goals.  From the current status of the Coles prototype models, it sounds like the purchase may have "financial complications" and not be a simple sale.

Just my 2-cents.
Todd.


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## kuhncw

Beckerdi,

Private Message sent.

Chuck


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