# Layout Blue



## GrahamN (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi

I'm getting slightly confused about marking out - in particular the use of blue dye to paint the metal so the lines show up. The last time I did this was over 40 years ago, so my memory may be playing tricks, but I seem to remember using a paintbrush to apply the dye, then leaving it for a few minutes to dry before use, finally cleaning with (paraffin?) when the cutting had finished.

Looking through many websites for clues, none of this seems to be mentioned on any of the beginner projects - but there is an occasional mention of felt tip pens, presumably to highlight lines after marking. Also, the only supplier in the UK I can find is Chronos who charge over £8 per small bottle. Can I assume, therefore, that there is a (better / different?) way of marking out these days?

I did buy some Marking Blue, but I think this is a different product for checking fits rather than for marking out - or am I wrong on this also?

Sorry for the very basic questions, but I haven't touched any engineering tools since i left school, and I'm really starting again from scratch.

Thanks


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 21, 2011)

The easiest way to apply layout dye is with a large poster marker such as sharpie or marks-a -lot jumbo . 





dykem brand layout dye is sold in 4 oz or 8 oz plastic cans and usually has a built in brush . dykem also sells a special remover but IMHO most folks just use whatever solvent they have and scrub it off when done. dykem is also available in the convenient aerosol can to spay it on. 






Tin


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## Blogwitch (Jan 21, 2011)

There are basically two types of blue.

Layout blue, which is the one you are mainly on about, which is usually a meths based product, used for, as you say, marking out, it shows the scribed lines better.

Even though the Chronos bottle will cost you &#163;8, it will last you for many years. 

Other areas of the world use other bright colours, but in the UK, it is normally blue.

The other alternative is to use wide tipped spirit based (permanent marker) pens, and paint that onto the surface and let it dry. That comes in a variety of colours, and is usually a lot more dense a colour than normal layout blue. I use both types, for large areas I use the layout blue, for quickie jobs, the marker. Expect to pay around &#163;4 for a good quality very wide tip marker pen.

The other type of blue you mention is engineers blue.

This is a non setting substance, that will get everywhere if you don't take care.

A tiny amount is spread on one surface, and the mating part brought into contact with the marked part. Some of the blue is transferred onto the mating part, and shows up the high spots where the two parts were in contact. This is very useful when you are trying to match up machined tapers or get parts totally flat to each other. It can be wiped off, again with meths, but almost any spirit will remove the residue. A small tin or tube will last your until your grandkids need it. It is passed on from one generation to another.

Bogs


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## Mo deller (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi Graham, I bought a bottle from GLR.
http://www.modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/taper-tooling.htm

Peter

ps, the bottom of the page.


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## GrahamN (Jan 21, 2011)

Many thanks.

So, just to clarify, if I buy a bottle of layout fluid from Chronos or GLR, would I then use a standard paintbrush to apply it? And how long would I need to leave it before starting work?

Graham


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 21, 2011)

acid brushes are cheap 
Tin


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## Mo deller (Jan 21, 2011)

GrahamN  said:
			
		

> Many thanks.
> 
> So, just to clarify, if I buy a bottle of layout fluid from Chronos or GLR, would I then use a standard paintbrush to apply it? And how long would I need to leave it before starting work?
> 
> Graham



Before I bought this new stuff I used to apply with a brush. The new bottle has a narrow tip a bit like a glue bottle and I find if I just wipe the side of it across the work it covers well. Dries quite quickly although when its cold and I have put it on a bit thick I end up blowing it to speed it along. In those cases perhaps a brush would help. I think its a case of whatever works for you. I just noticed you refer to standard paint brush. just to clarify the brush I used to use was an artists brush so quite fine. 

hth Peter


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## Maryak (Jan 21, 2011)

I use a brush from a kids paint set, you can do all sorts of doodles before you cover up the surface :

Best Regards
Bob


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## GWRdriver (Jan 21, 2011)

I once used Dykem in a can, and there was nothing wrong with that product, although I found I didn't use enough of it to keep a can fresh, and it did have a shelf life, so I now use "Sharpie" broad tipped markers which do a great job and are far more convenient to use. The only problem is my tapping (and cutting) fluid (Tap-Magic) will dissolve the marker on contact so I have to take a little care with that. I also keep a can of aerosol spray marking out fluid (no-name brand)) for large areas.


> The other type of blue you mention is engineers blue. This is a non setting substance, that will get everywhere if you don't take care. - Bogs


We call it Hi-spot blue (which is actualy a trade name) and if you are careless with it the stuff will very definitely get everywhere.


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## Spurry (Jan 21, 2011)

I always use cotton buds to apply marking out blue. If you are really careful, you can let it dry out, then turn it round and use the other end. If you are not too worried about the future of the planet just use one end, then put it in the bin.

Pete


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## b.lindsey (Jan 21, 2011)

A useful tip someone told me years ago at least for marking out smaller areas or touching up layout mistakes, etc....get and empty nail polish bottle from the wife, clean it out good along with the applicator brush using acetone or nail polish remover, and then fill it up with Dykem blue or similar. If the cap fits nice and tight and seals well, you can keep it in the toolbox or on the workbench where it will be handy when needed and the applicator brush is already there as part of the cap. Not good for large areas, but works well for small jobs or covering up mistakes.

Bill


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## mklotz (Jan 21, 2011)

You can buy Dykem in a plastic bottle with a felt top applicator...

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-1391&PMPXNO=941829&PARTPG=INLMK3

Works sort of like a hugely oversized Sharpie equipped with Dykem quick drying ink. Much less messy than the cans with the brush.


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 21, 2011)

Usually I'll use a chisel point Sharpie for a small area or a touch-up.

But my favorite way is to use spray cans of lay-out fluid. I use red and/or blue, and it adds a little life to the project/shop. When I get tired of one color I switch. Using both together gives me a third color.

I tried the brush on type. It takes too long to cover the surface, and if the container is knocked over you have a mess that will send you running to buy a spray can. I know, because It happened to me.

"I love the smell of lay-out fluid in the early morning!" :big:

-MB


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## MachineTom (Jan 21, 2011)

As MB said "I love the smell of lay-out dye in the Morning" or any other time as well. The spray is far easier to use than the liquid, for a small area a shot into a ceramic dish can then be used with a brush.


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## kf2qd (Jan 21, 2011)

GWRdriver  said:
			
		

> I also keep a can of aerosol spray marking out fluid (no-name brand)) for large areas.We call it Hi-spot blue (which is actualy a trade name) and if you are careless with it the stuff will very definitely get everywhere.



High Spot is probably another useful, but messy product related to Prussian Blue which is a non-drying blueing for looking for interferences when checking close fitting parts like tapers and such.

I like a sharpy for small areas, had a purple one that worked much better than the black ones...


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## Antman (Jan 21, 2011)

My 2 cents worth ... First time I needed layout blue I was 200 km from the nearest engineering supply so I used black leather dye, also a meths based dye and results were quite satisfactory.


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## rsendys (Jan 21, 2011)

I am using this http://www.ede-shop.de/ewneu/artikel.php?action=show&artnr=48080500&SessID=5c801f95d5683fbf2231f8089a845a8f
This is very good mark ink. 
There are other options:
http://www.ede-shop.de/ewneu/artikel.php?SessID=1f762baede6dc480d1111556fbf7fc20&artnr=48100001
http://www.ede-shop.de/ewneu/artikel.php?SessID=1f762baede6dc480d1111556fbf7fc20&artnr=48080300

I do not buy at this store - but there are nice pictures. :hDe:


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## FIXIT (Jan 22, 2011)

My two pennies worth
   i to bought a bottle from chronos 2 years ago and its still 3/4 full and as suggested i use it from a nail polish bottle with the built in brush, works well!


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## shred (Jan 22, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> You can buy Dykem in a plastic bottle with a felt top applicator...
> 
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-1391&PMPXNO=941829&PARTPG=INLMK3
> 
> Works sort of like a hugely oversized Sharpie equipped with Dykem quick drying ink. Much less messy than the cans with the brush.


I have one of those. It's not very messy but seems to leave a thin streaky color-- the can with the brush covers well with a nice thick color but makes a mess. The spray is good but also goes everywhere. Ya just can't win 'em all.


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## ieezitin (Jan 22, 2011)

I use layout fluid and sharpies, I prefer sharpies because of the ease of use but they work just as good as each other, the negative with both is cutting fluids will wash away your visual so if you are setting up a piece where your looking at your line make sure you center pop the lines so you can split the pop marks and still use them as your reference.

Anthony.


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## gabby (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi ya fella's, Many years ago in metal work class at high school, our instructor showed us how to make a mark out blue from "con-dies crystals", i just wish i had taken more notice at the time 'coz I've been caught short many times.
So what I am asking is, Are there recipes for mark out dyes out there ? or is it a secret that died with the old teacher from way back.
gabby


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## jack620 (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi Gabby,
Here's my recipe:

125mL methylated spirits (denatured alcohol)
4-6 teaspoons shellac flakes
1/2 teaspoon (2.5mL) Gentian Violet powder

I don't know where you will find the GV powder.  I have a friend who works in a lab who gets it for me.  You don't need much, it is a VERY powerful dye.

Regards,
Chris


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## goldstar31 (Feb 6, 2013)

Condies crystals are potassium permanganate. However, there are plenty of proprietory compunds for marking out. One is simply wall paint or distemper. You can also  use copper sulphate. Some people use white on iron castings whilst others use blue. Go your local tool shop- and ask


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## gus (Feb 6, 2013)

Here is my 2 cents worth.
I use Staedtler permanent markers which is easily removed with solvent.Dries very fast.
Cost S$2.00(US$1.60).Quite happy with the results.Good for three months use.


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## Wagon173 (Feb 6, 2013)

That's what I have been using is map markers as I don't gave any layout fluid and I really like it.  But it smudges real easy when I shoot it with wd40.


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## Walsheng (Feb 6, 2013)

I used to use copper sulfate back when I was building molds and now just use a permanent marker. Still just use the scribe lines as a reference and dial things out.

John


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## gabby (Feb 8, 2013)

Hmmm. me thinks I too will go with the flow on this and get some sharpies.
Cheers:noidea:


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