# What are your engines worth to you?



## mklotz (Jun 29, 2010)

At shows, I've often had people ask me if I would sell any of my engines. I always answer no, explaining that I build them only for my own entertainment and not as a business.

Nevertheless, I'm sure that if someone offered me a lot of money, say an amount needed to buy some expensive tool I covet, I might do it.

So, my question is, how much would someone have to offer before you would sell one of your handmade engines?

Arriving at a number by multiplying hours spent to build by a decent hourly wage is a non-starter. If you do that, you'll see that the number is outrageous. If you were building to sell you'd be using production techniques, making jigs and fixtures, etc. to decrease the time needed to produce the product.

I'm interested in a different number. Given that you've already built the engine using non-production methods, how much would it take to pry it from your hands?


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## Stan (Jun 29, 2010)

I build them just as a challenge to myself. Once finished, they have no value. I have given some away and most just sit around under multiple layers of dust.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jun 29, 2010)

I find that impossible to answer because, like you, I'm not doing this for business.

The 'sale' price of the engine represents the return value. In some cases, it's zero dollars but priceless none-the-less.

The sale of the engine might represent the ability to get more material for another project...but the giving of the engine might result in seeing someone's life positively change.

So I guess I'm saying...it depends on who is buying.

Having other ways to survive (i.e. a job) means I can afford to satisfy my desire to influence/help others. I'm not a believer in altruism...I will happily confess to the enjoyment I get in helping others.

If you're looking for a business based answer (and I know you're not)...then it's simply the rate I need to cover my costs plus make a small profit. And if I can't sell at that price...then I need to get a whole lot better, lower my costs, or satisfy myself with a lower standard of living.

It's a very complex and personal question.

Hm...maybe that's why I'm not rich. ;D


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## Troutsqueezer (Jun 29, 2010)

If it's an engine that was lucky enough to have graced the opening page of a world-renowned, prestigious forum such as HMEM for a month's time, then it's worth thousands. 

-Trout


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## kcmillin (Jun 29, 2010)

Oooohhh........Id say...........................bout' tree fiddy. :big: :big:



Making these engines the way we do is a learning experience. An education that would normally cost a lot clams. If you deduct this estimated amount from he "price" of the engine, you could give it away and still break even. You will always have the knowledge.

Still the answer to your question is ALOT. I do end up with a bit of a personal attachment to them, however giving them to a deserving recipient can be a great thing as well.

Kel


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## doc1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I too would have to say no deal especially the very first motor I built. I have built several for gifts but usually when I do that I do a double build one for myself and one for the gift. I do this as a hobby to unwind and just clear my head. I have always loved machine work and making chips.
 Believe it or not I still remember the set ups and the things I learned on my first engine build 
(30+ years ago) and I can't sell away my memories.


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## Artie (Jun 29, 2010)

For me its pretty simple... like you... the answer is no sale... I have only recenlty started this miniature engine hobby and Im extraordinarliy proud of my achievements... (and Im still on my first engine project), I think I would like them displayed where *I*  can see them...

I know..I'm selfish...C'est la Vie.... 8)

Again like you, I think an extraordinary amount may well sway me... (it has to buy my extraordinary 'pride' after all)... I could not begin to even think of what that might be... but it would have to be a 'stupid' amount and that is simply not going to happen....


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## gbritnell (Jun 30, 2010)

OK, here's my story.

About 6 years ago my wife and I were attending the NAMES show when it was held at the Soutgate, Michigan arena. On Saturday a fellow stopped by to look at my engines. After a bit he asked me if any of them were for sale, I told him no. He said he really liked my 302 Ford engine and would I be interested in selling it. Having encountered people with the same questions over the years I politely told him again that it wasn't for sale. He then asked if I were to sell it what would I have to have for it. 

 I try to be polite and explain the hours of building, tools, design work and uniqueness that go into something like this and that it would be quite costly. He wasn't really satisfied with my response and posed his question again. 

 In an effort to end this conversation and knowing what some models have sold for in the past I told him I would have to have $10,000.00 dollars for it. He said he would write me a check and when it cleared I could send him the engine. I told him it wasn't for sale. He then asked if I was going to be there on Sunday and I told him yes. He said he would stop back then.

 Sunday came and sure enough the fellow stopped by with the same offer, and got my same reply. He wasn't upset about it and just moved on.
 While attending my display my wife was walking around the show talking to people and generally doing things to make the day go by so she could get home to something more interesting than models. 

 Near the end of the afternoon she told me that this same fellow who had offered me the money for my engine was going around the show buying other engines and having them loaded into a limo to have them driven back to New York somewhere I believe.

 I have had this question put to me many times over the years and depending on who is asking, a machinist, a model maker or just a curious individual I enjoy the different responses that I have received. 

 I have been a very lucky person. I have had a good job, an understanding wife, available time and fairly good health over the years so this has allowed me to enjoy my hobby. I have never been in a position that I have had to sell my creations. I have built a few for people and I have tried to be reasonable with my prices. 

 I have discovered that what an engine or model is worth is whatever you can get for it. It's not like there is a great market out there for selling them but there are people who have money and if they want something they are willing to pay for it. 

 Just watch the Barrett-Jackson auction some time! 

Am I sorry that I didn't sell my engine? Absolutely not! It is part of my life, it connects me with people and I enjoy the heck out of running it. 
 Is there a number that could get it away from me, possibly, but I would have to hear it first! 
George


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## Twmaster (Jun 30, 2010)

* I have discovered that what an engine or model is worth is whatever you can get for it. It's not like there is a great market out there for selling them but there are people who have money and if they want something they are willing to pay for it. *

I just saw an Elmer's engine on feebay sell for only about $160. Whomever bought it got a deal IMHO.

I make some things to sell (not engines) and like others here I don't find myself easily talked into selling some things that have the value of 'priceless' in my eyes.


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## Longboy (Jun 30, 2010)

.........Building engines now for 4 years. It's the sense of accomplishment, the time passed, talent in creating originals, appreciation of building generic types or designs of other modellers, sharing on the forums, displaying at shows or in my case thru "YOU TUBE". Did not develop a budget to get involved, most likely will not have a liquidation to exit. Certainly unsure if another year or ten to continue. My mantle is filling up with engines from my hand and for me..................."I'm keeping every one of them till the house burns down"! Thm:


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## seagar (Jun 30, 2010)

To me they are priceless but to other people I will never know because the are not for sale.If a friend or member of my familey want one it is free.

Ian (seagar)


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## tel (Jun 30, 2010)

I have, for various reasons, sold three of my engines over the years, and regretted doing so every time, BUT, to answer the question, average price has been around $450.


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## rake60 (Jun 30, 2010)

Mine are not for sale.

If I calculated the material cost and average machinist's wage, add in the 
cost of touching up the paint on the far wall in the basement where
the errant parts always seem to bounce off, nobody could afford them!
 

Rick


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## steamer (Jun 30, 2010)

Marv

Generally I am with Rick in the Not for Sale camp.....but that's not everyone..
I have been asked this question.......I stood there and looked at the guy, and using the old ploy of "ask a silly question"...gave a silly answer!

The price should equal the price of the tool you covet......then, if they agree,(they won't) you will have something of equal emotional attachment to console yourself....and a lot more shekels in your pocket instead of in the covetted tool.

Dave


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## IronHorse (Jun 30, 2010)

I always liked the idea some people have is to make 2 engines at the same time and then sell one of them. I was going to do that with my beam engine, but after a couple of parts I figured this would take to long and gave up the plan and just made one. I could see this would be profitable if you did most of the work on a CNC machine, but I don't have one of those yet!


IronHorse


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## mklotz (Jun 30, 2010)

It's interesting to note that, for most of the responders to this thread, the price would either be infinite (won't sell for any price) or so high that the likelihood of an offer is vanishingly small.

It's comforting to hear that because that's exactly how I feel about the issue. I wanted to do a reality check on myself to see if I was unusually sentimental or, more likely, just crazy.

Sometimes, when I'm tired or more irritable than usual, I'll quote them an outrageous price just to get rid of them. What's fascinating is that, while they won't take me up on the offer, very few of them tell me the price is stupidly high. I suppose that the people who are interested enough to consider buying recognize the work involved and appreciate that any one who could build it would not let it go cheaply. It's satisfying to know that they value craftsmanship even if they can't afford it. That's a trait that's fast disappearing in our culture.


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## ghart3 (Jun 30, 2010)

As most people I usually say sorry don't sell. If to set a price would have the feeling that my labor would be to cheap or the price is way to much for what it is worth.

Did sell an engine. When told the guy it wasn't for sale, he asked, if I would think about an offer and he would come back later and give an offer. Said OK being curious what the offer would be. The engine wasn't quite finished needing ignition, cooling and painting (hate painting).  He came back an hour or so later and made the offer.  Think he offered way to much but I accepted, thinking of the tools I could buy with it. 

More bothersome to me then selling is donating them to a museum. Have heard several stories of donated items put in storage and then years later sold.


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## Twmaster (Jun 30, 2010)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> It's comforting to hear that because that's exactly how I feel about the issue. I wanted to do a reality check on myself to see if I was unusually sentimental or, more likely, just crazy.



Don't worry Marv. We still know you are crazy. 



> It's satisfying to know that they value craftsmanship even if they can't afford it. That's a trait that's fast disappearing in our culture.



Yup. The high cost of cheap.


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## Cedge (Jun 30, 2010)

Marv
Tis a subject that has its own strange dichotomy. From one point of view I agree that it is almost impossible to put a price on an engine you've poured your heart into building. That is the case here and I'm not about to sell any of the engines in my collection, especially those I've built myself. I do get asked if they are for sale but a polite "No" is my stock answer.

The other half of the equation comes in when you consider casualty loss or for settling an estate. I've been asked a number of times to assess values in both situations. I try to keep an good ear to the ground as to what these things are bringing at auction or private sales, just to have an idea of the "real world" valuations. With a one of a kind engine and a well heeled collector, those numbers can be rather startling, often running to strong 5 figures and even to 6 with some stuff.

I've been more than amazed at the growth in their perceived value over that past few years and I even get a little spooked when I apply those "real world" numbers to my collection. This is one of the few hobbies I've been in that appreciated in value and did so significantly in such a short (10 years) period of time. Add in the few unique pieces I've personally built and the numbers almost stop making sense.

So... pricelss..... nope, not for sale, but it never hurts to keep a mental tally of some sort.

Steve


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## Blogwitch (Jun 30, 2010)

I actually used to make batches of engines, 6 at a time, and still have all the associated tooling to make them. They were exchanged for cash (never sold) and the proceeds were used to finance my workshop. If I needed a big bit of equipment, make a batch, equipment purchased.

My one off's are a totally different matter.

I had a friend call who is also an engine collector (I sometimes did a bit of restoration for him) and he valued my Elmers mine engine at a minimum of 800 squid.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=389.msg3675#msg3675

I actually said he could have it for nothing if he wanted it, but he said that because I had put so much work into it, and at some point, because he is a collector, he just might be tempted to sell it on, so he refused.

Having been in the open checkbook arena myself, I think the refusal thing is because in each engine there is a part of you, and as such, it would be defiling your workmanship if you sold it.

I suppose if I had sold all the engines I had given away, I could have had another new workshop, but between friends, cash has no value, but a lump of bar end would always be accepted, that could go towards making new engines.

In fact it was only last week that I gave away the makings of a mini-vap v-twin prototype, there were enough machined up bits to make half a dozen engines at least.


Bogs


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## johnthomp (Jun 30, 2010)

Twmaster  said:
			
		

> * I have discovered that what an engine or model is worth is whatever you can get for it. It's not like there is a great market out there for selling them but there are people who have money and if they want something they are willing to pay for it. *
> 
> I just saw an Elmer's engine on feebay sell for only about $160. Whomever bought it got a deal IMHO.
> 
> I make some things to sell (not engines) and like others here I don't find myself easily talked into selling some things that have the value of 'priceless' in my eyes.


 
   the engine you saw on feebay wasnt a brass open colum with reverse was it


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## johnthomp (Jun 30, 2010)

my engines are worth the world to me both with the learning curve of finding out how they work and learning new skills to create the finnished masterpiece and in the sense of elation when they run first time and in the countless hours of running them i cannot put a price on them at all 
   but the other week with being on the dole and not being able to find a job i came upon a little solution i built an elmers open colum with reverse from solid brass and with it being one of my first projects i got a little tired of the way it looked so i built the thing again and it was at least 5 times better than the first so i reluctantly put the original one on ebay and got £50 for it 
   so the money is going on my latest project wich is a chucks horisontal single 2 stroke with reverse at tripple the size of the plans wich will certainly not be getting sold at all no matter how skint i get hee hee


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## Deanofid (Jun 30, 2010)

I've never sold an engine that I built for myself. I've had some offers from people that seemed like
a fair bit of money when I heard it in a lump sum. I would just say "I don't want to sell it". 

I have sold a number of engines, though. About 14, I think. None of them were engines I made 
for myself, so they were just another job, more or less. 
I had built four small bar stock wobblers once. Two for myself, and two to give away to friends.  When 
they were all done, I lined them up and took a picture of them, and put the picture up on the website I
had at the time, just for show. I got a gob of emails asking if I sold these engines, and after a few days
I took the picture down from the website. Then, I made a run of 10 of them with the idea to sell them.
Took me about a week to 10 days and when they were done, I put the original picture of four of them
back up on the website and waited for emails. They were gone in a couple of weeks. But those were 
never my engines. I made them, but I didn't make them for me.

Another time I had made two small single cylinder steam engines, and one day at a chili cookoff, I set 
those two engines running on the bench where I was cooking chili. A number of people asked to buy
them, and it was the same answer I always give; "I don't want to sell them". Finally, one guy said
"Okay, you don't want to sell them. Will you make one for me?" Sure. That seemed totally different 
in my mind. I wasn't selling something I had made for myself. I was making a new one just like any 
other job order, and it didn't bother me that way. I ended up selling four of those in that manner, (if
I remember the number correctly), but I still have the two originals that I had made for myself. 
I still have *every* engine that I built for myself!

Dean


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## Maryak (Jun 30, 2010)

There are those of us who do this as a business and most of us who do it as a hobby.

My engines are special to me and they are priceless in the way they have enhanced my life. If someone close to me wanted one, I would probably give it to them, other than that, surprise, surprise...............  no one has made me an offer I couldn't refuse. 

Best Regards
Bob


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## kvom (Jun 30, 2010)

I've made three engines that have run. I can't say that I'm emotionally attached to any of them, but haven't thought of whether I would sell them before this thread. If I were to do so at what I'd consider a rational price my labor would be valued at about $3/hour. I think my craftsmanship level increased somewhat with each build, so having them as a self-reference point is worthwhile (except that all 3 are disassembled awaiting the polishing that I may never get around to.  :)

I have an intention to make my current build good enough that I wouldn't sell it at any price.


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## lee9966 (Jun 30, 2010)

I understand how everyone feels, but to me the fun is in the building. Once it's done, polished, mounted, and on a shelf then it kind of loses it's fun value. What's left at that point? Dusting it?


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## zeeprogrammer (Jun 30, 2010)

I think the question was "What are your engines worth to you?".
That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether you sell them or not.
It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with money.
Nor do I believe that selling an engine means their personal value is diminished.

If you do sell an engine, sometimes it's not just the dollars you get...but the satisfaction that someone wanted your engine so much...and why they wanted it so much.

Would it make more of difference if that father wanted to buy that engine to give to his son? So that son would appreciate the father's interest in his hobby? That means a lot to me...I would have been a part of a relationship...or a future.

It's why I think it's such a personal choice and we shouldn't place too much...mm...judgment on the reasons. It's just never that black and white.

Whether they sell an engine, or a a number of engines, I doubt anyone is on this forum just for the business. (hee.)

Viva Le Diversity (not just the Difference).


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## Cedge (Jun 30, 2010)

Lee...
Half the fun here is listening to my grandsons argue over who will one day own what engine. They've known all their lives that I'm collecting/building for them as much as for me..... (grin)

I don't begrudge anyone selling an engine for whatever reason they may deem as sufficient. Much of my collection came from old guys breaking up theirs as age caught up with them. Most wanted their toys to go to someone who'd enjoy them as they did. On that count I've been judged worthy a few times. the sad part of it was that no one they knew was interested unless it was for a quick sale. I hear from a lot of those too.

Steve


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 1, 2010)

This is a question I have often pondered. Have not really made a conclusion. At shows I have gotten the are they for sale . How much would you sell them for etc questions. I do not think I would consider selling any of the engines I have build at least not the foreseeable future. One reason is I do not think I could, or would make another truly the same as what I have. I tend to vary from the print as the mood strikes. In the future I may make an engine or two in pairs and sell or give one away . But not their yet. 
Tin


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## johnthomp (Jul 2, 2010)

before i started building my own little engines i often asked people what would they sell their engines for or if they would when i asked the famous childs question why most of them would reply as kindly as they could with if you built your own youd know why but we cant explain in words why kind of a if you were in my shoes answer
  over the following years i put 2 and 2 together and came up with the most reasonable answer i could think of wich was these engines must be worth a fortune each over time these people rack up roughly a dozen or more and do this as a sort of solid asset retirement fund (private pension) 
  its only in the last 3 years i have come to learn the true nature of this phenominon its because watching one of these little engines take shape and knowing its all your own work (and a phenominal ammount of knowledge from very experienced machineists and engineers who are so kind and patient with takeing time to listen and think about other peoples problems aswell as their own and advise us newbies certainly gets my vote anyday)
  all this learning and createing and at the finnish of evry project its like watching a child grow wich leads me to the answer in the mother of all comebacks
  if i ever get asked are they for sale ill just ask right back 
    no are your children for sale


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