# India Tools



## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

I'm thimking that since we all know about or buy Chinese stuff which has it's various qualities, quantities and low price, that India being a competitor of China (apparently don't get along very well and I thimk the Indians have less impulse to conquer the world by military means), that maybe we could talk about what we find out about Indian tools.  I only got this small tool last week (About Aug. 15, 2020) but have gotten a few other things from them.  I have been looking at their lathes, they look like monsters from the 1850s but "looks" may be only cosmetic.  ONe neveer knows lest they test it, check it, use it.  Anyway, the lathes LOOK unsophisticated which means NOTHING.  I've seen amazing utub vids in which Indians are doing very nice work with simple tools--they are definitely bootstrapping themselves and anyone who helps themselves (rather than expecting a handout), I personally am willing to also help if I can.

I ordered a milling attachment from India a couple weeks ago. It arrived today (Aug 15, 2020) . Here is my report:

Immediately upon opening the package, I cut my finger, just a little cut--I hope it doesn't have this week's virus flavor. The thing seems to have been well ground on the important surfaces but they must not know about "Break All Edges". On all the ground edges they are sharp as a razor. No prob, I can fix that. Inside the slots, there is a single spot of weld spatter. No prob, I can fix that. Upon opening the package I found that the handle screwed directly onto the screw but the end of the screw was drilled out and it broke off. There is a lot of slop, about a 1/16" Between the top of the screw head and mount. (I workt today 14 hours, so excuse me if I get the words wrong or have horrible mispellinjgs), That could be a problem but probably fixable with a simple washer.

What I am particularly impressed with is the tightness of the dovetails and the smoothness of operation. That proves, so far, to be deliscious. I took it apart, naturally, and woe unto those who LOOK! (It's like "Don't tell, don't ask, don't look!) My god, what a crappy looking bundle of work! But it's all cosmetic, the edge of one way looks like a truck hit it. The gib screw holes in the side are all over the place like a child did it at play with hand drill--again, cosmetic. The hole thru the slide section which the screw goes thru is about 8deg to the side--that is probably cosmetic but then those of us who have been arguing trig know that it will create a small difference between reality and what the dial says. Well, measure, measur, measure and hopefully it will not matter. The corners of the sliding bed has been obviously dropt with both bottom corners smushed about 3/32".  This probably means the metal is rather soft, but that just means take it easy with the thing and don't drop it, hit it with a mill end, etc.  The ways, altho' well ground, have a couple tiny divits and one spot looks like a weld fill which has been ground over. The casting marks look like casting marks. I do not know yet if the bottom is square with the bed.

I'll make some measurements and tests when I gets the chance in a couple weeks. I will also notify the sender that the screw was broken to see what they will do. I can easily remake that unless the threads are some godawful type from the moon. My assessment so far: It's a buy--I'd buy it again. I thimk I paid 120 odd $$. The total with tax and shipping was 153$. In comparison to a China made 2D vise that cost 60$, which I realize is incredibly cheap, The India made, I thimk, is the better deal, certainly better quality. the Chinese Cheapo has crappy ways, one end is incredibly tight (not the gib tho') and the other end is very loose. It's dials are seriously something from the moon.

Ah, got a day off, (Aug 17) will take photos of this and take it apart, check the angle, etc.  This milling attachment apparently is made for a Myford.  Well, I'm a gonna makes it fits my Enco.

If anyone else has any experience with Indian equipment, tools, etc.  I would very much be interested in knowing about any critiques you have.


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## TonyM (Aug 17, 2020)

I generalise but having worked in India for a year commissioning an automotive hose factory I found them to be lovely people who's promises are like piecrust. They are great improvisors who can make almost anything from a pile of scrap. They just don't have any idea of quality and yet can skillfully make the most intricate '' One offs''
I unwittingly bought a vertical slide from India. It was worse than you could imagine. It took an age to get though customs so I decided to keep it and make it workable. I left the seller with negative feedback including photos and a video and he sent me some ''good quality'' adjustable reamers in way of compensation. They have been consigned to the bin.
I did repair the slide and make it usable and am happy with the end result but it was two full days of work to get it to that stage. Pics 6 and 7 were to illustrate that the two sliding surfaces were not on the same plane. Also they were just rough machined..


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## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

TonyM said:


> I generalise but having worked in India for a year commissioning an automotive hose factory I found them to be lovely people who's promises are like piecrust. They are great improvisors who can make almost anything from a pile of scrap. They just don't have any idea of quality and yet can skillfully make the most intricate '' One offs''
> I unwittingly bought a vertical slide from India. It was worse than you could imagine. It took an age to get though customs so I decided to keep it and make it workable. I left the seller with negative feedback including photos and a video and he sent me some ''good quality'' adjustable reamers in way of compensation. They have been consigned to the bin.
> I did repair the slide and make it usable and am happy with the end result but it was two full days of work to get it to that stage. Pics 6 and 7 were to illustrate that the two sliding surfaces were not on the same plane. Also they were just rough machined..


Thanx for those photos and the relevant info you shared.  Here are the photos I took:


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## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

In the first photo you will see the hole thru the body is off center--the other side is even worse, probably done with a homemade drill press.  The nut is off center too--in my opinion both these jobs are inexcusable.  the hole thru the middle for the acme screw is more or less  cosmetic, I hope.  The nut, being off center presents a fixable problem in that it needs to be centered for the slots on the lathe compound.  This is fixable too, my prob is just "how can somebody do such poor work?"  I thimk a person with a file could do a better job.  They don't know what a center punch is?  Their drill press is so wobbly that it starts off center????  Hmmm.  Even so, this is fixable.  

The third photo shows the poor locating of the grub screws on the gib.  Just cosmetic.

fourth photo--Shows a relatively quality grinding job.  This angle is very well done and as far as I can tell (only chekt it with a machinists square) is perfect, both sides.  A bit of discolorization.  Of course, this is probably the most important part and I approve.

The next photo shows the milling marks and I doesn't know quite what to thimk of this as the mating part has the surface ground.  The two parts slide wonderfully smoothly and are very tight.  The dovetail seems to be ground on the inside but not the flat part.  

The sixth photo shows the slots which seem to be fine.  This part is very soft metal, most likely mild steel.  I filed the corner marks from being dropt and the edges which were very easy and soft.  

The next photo just shows the bottom.  The next two show the corners after dropping and the broken screw shaft along with the general construction.

The last photo shows the truck wreck at the edge of the dovetail  This is not seen and doesn't affect the operation but still it's a bit unsettling to those of us who are more familiar with better workmanship.  

In the third photo, look at the bottom way and you will see some little divits and something that looks like a weld fill that was ground over.  

Next, I will fix the T-slot nuts and the two dowel pins to fit my Enco and I will report back then.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 17, 2020)

Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have  had to pay £120.


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## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have  had to pay £120.


Recently?  Or many years passed?  Was that when pound was strong?


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## ACHiPo (Aug 17, 2020)

I bought a 5MT test bar off eBay, and was delighted at the quality for the price (~$100 delivered within a week from India to CA in a nice-ish wooden box).  I laid it on my surface plate and back-lit it--the light was pretty uniform with maybe a skosh more light in the center.  I then put it on vee blocks (Chinese imports--definitely not B&S) and measured 0.0002" difference between the shaft on the vee block and mid-span, which seems decent and within specs.  Grinding quality on the taper is good to excellent.

A few weeks later I bought a die holder for the tailstock (3MT) off eBay and it turned out to be from the same company.  Again fast, reasonable shipping.  Quality of the ground bits was very good.  Knurling and edges could use some refinement.


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 17, 2020)

My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful.  It arrived damaged and barely useable.  The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin.  I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

ACHiPo said:


> I bought a 5MT test bar off eBay, and was delighted at the quality for the price (~$100 delivered within a week from India to CA in a nice-ish wooden box).  I laid it on my surface plate and back-lit it--the light was pretty uniform with maybe a skosh more light in the center.  I then put it on vee blocks (Chinese imports--definitely not B&S) and measured 0.0002" difference between the shaft on the vee block and mid-span, which seems decent and within specs.  Grinding quality on the taper is good to excellent.
> 
> A few weeks later I bought a die holder for the tailstock (3MT) off eBay and it turned out to be from the same company.  Again fast, reasonable shipping.  Quality of the ground bits was very good.  Knurling and edges could use some refinement.


That's sort of the way I see it--the important parts are great (except for being soft metal) but the rest needs a bit of cleanup.  I trimmed the sides of the sharp edges and will work on the pins and T-nuts when I gets a chance.


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## Richard Hed (Aug 17, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful.  It arrived damaged and barely useable.  The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin.  I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hugh


When did this happen?  did you let them know the condition?  That really sux.  I am hoping that like all the developing countries, or the ones that have already developed (Japan, Korea, Taiwan)  that started out with pert near krap, but kept going and started doing better work and better quality, Am hoping the same for India.  I don't want to support China anymore, but I will for the foreseeable future--just looking for alternatives.

PS.  I'm wondering if those dinosaur looking lathes they have in India are better than they look or as bad as they look.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 17, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have  had to pay £120.




Today's  quoted price.    How about a comparison

As for Indians being untrustworthy, I've been connected with them from becoming a Goldstar-- in 1948.
It's  membership of a most prestigious Royal Air Force Squadron  which boasts ' In  Caele, Indicus  Primus' or 'First in the Indian Skies' .  Surprising I have lots of Indian friends. All highly qualified- doctors, dentists, engineers- professional ones and so on. Even in business- donkey's years ago, I could always get money out of them- when other's had problems.  But then it 'money' was my job- not trying  to save a quick buck--- and getting it oh so wrong.


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## motmaluk (Aug 18, 2020)

I have bought a small rotary table and several sets of taps and dies from Indian companies and have been very pleased with the quality. I have also bought two motorcycle tanks from them and the workmanship was impressive.  There are probably good and bad companies like everywhere.


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## Jasonb (Aug 18, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Had I bought a Myford vertical slide, i would have  had to pay £120.



Goldstar where are you buying the vertical slide from, Myford have them listed as £260?


			Myford Ltd Home Page (British Engineering at its best)
		


Really it all comes down to what you pay be it from India or China. At the bottom end e-bay direct from source or the likes of Banggood you don't really know what you are going to get but more likely lowest quality from a small factory doing cheap copies. If you buy from one of the hobby suppliers you will pay more but they will have used a factory that is known to make to a certain quality having found the ones that can produce to a reasonable level at the right price bracket. You could also go to industrial tool suppliers and pay a lot more for items from the same countries that are even better quality. It comes down to what you pay.

I have a few Soba branded items including  a 6" rotary table and it all works fine.


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## IanN (Aug 18, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Today's  quoted price.    How about a comparison
> 
> As for Indians being untrustworthy, I've been connected with them from becoming a Goldstar-- in 1948.
> It's  membership of a most prestigious Royal Air Force Squadron  which boasts ' In  Caele, Indicus' or 'First in the Indian SSkies' .  Surprising I have lots of Indian friends. All highly qualified- doctors, dentists, engineers- professional ones and so on. Even in business- donkey's years ago, I could always get money out of them- when other's had problems.  But then it 'money' was my job- not trying  to save a quick buck--- and getting it oh so wrong.


Hi,

I agree with Norman.  Just like China, India will willingly make you whatever you want.  If you want cheap, low quality rubbish, they will be only too pleased to supply you with cheap, low quality rubbish.  But remember that China also manufacture jet fighter aircraft and they are the worlds largest manufacturer of supercomputers by a massive margin.  The problem is that if you want their high quality stuff it stops being cheap

The aircraft situation shows perfectly the difference in the approach that used to be followed by China and India.  Both nations manufactured aircraft but “bought in” the engines.  When the USSR collapsed and engine maintenance became an issue, India sent out teams to scour the world and buy up stockpiles of spare parts while China searched out the engineers, offered them good jobs, good salaries (and paid them on time) and lovely, well equipped and well funded research establishments and factories to work in.

India has realised their mistake and are working hard to correct the situation, and they have the determination, the will and the work ethic to succeed in their quest.

Ian


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## skarven (Aug 18, 2020)

My Indian 5MK test bar amazingly has three distinctly different axes. One for the tapered part, one for the cylindrical part and one for the two centre holes on the ends. I can see no use for it, and I wonder how they managed to make it like that!


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## STEVEJ (Aug 18, 2020)

There is no substitute for buying quality. Let me be the first to say that if you buy cheap you buy twice.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

Jasonb said:


> Goldstar where are you buying the vertical slide from, Myford have them listed as £260?
> 
> 
> Myford Ltd Home Page (British Engineering at its best)



I priced the fixed slide one from RDG Tools.
 OK

I have one bought from the days when Myford was Myford and my other one is probably 'Perfecto' as everyone in the good old days 'bought in'. 
Whatever is the price- and the difference may be the fixed and swivel one but frankly who cares the guy got paid rubbish money for rubbish stuff. Many of us will agree with that.  Others will come onto this excellent site- finding a place to moan- and bugger off again to annoy someone else.

There is an English expression called 'Man of Straw' and  I do wish that people were better than that.

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

STEVEJ said:


> There is no substitute for buying quality. Let me be the first to say that if you buy cheap you buy twice.


Yes. Some months ago I quoted the great John Ruskin on Price. Yes- he was the Ruskin University bloke.


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## Peter Murphy (Aug 18, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> My India made 4" Rotary Table (Purchased on Ebay) is woeful.  It arrived damaged and barely useable.  The Clamping Set that came with it are for a larger t-slot size, so went in the bin.  I use it very occasionally when I have no other alternative.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hugh


Hi Hugh, 
Mine was the same rubbish, sheared the pin off for the table gear 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc. I finished the job by using a bar to turn it as I was only milling some thin aluminium. When I pulled it apart I found the gear was not round & therefore was stripping the teeth on one side. I eventually replaced it with a Vertex (Taiwanese), much better. 
India need to get their act together as there is an opportunity to take alot of China's business. 
Cheers, 
Peter from Australia


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

Peter Murphy said:


> Hi Hugh,
> Mine was the same rubbish, sheared the pin off for the table gear 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc. I finished the job by using a bar to turn it as I was only milling some thin aluminium. When I pulled it apart I found the gear was not round & therefore was stripping the teeth on one side. I eventually replaced it with a Vertex (Taiwanese), much better.
> India need to get their act together as there is an opportunity to take alot of China's business.
> Cheers,
> Peter from Australia



I suppose that most 'advanced' cuntries have something similar to the British 'Sale of Goods Act' and deals with things like goods not being of 'Merchantable quality'. Yes, instead of being  an 'engineer'. I did Commercial Studies.

So why wasn't the seller taken to task for his responsibility un the unsatisfactory sale?


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## jack620 (Aug 18, 2020)

I have an M9x1 Dormer brand tap made in India. It's superb. I used to tap holes in titanium which is horrid stuff to tap.
On the other hand I have an Indian made countersink which I'm not impressed with.


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## Peter Murphy (Aug 18, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> I suppose that most 'advanced' cuntries have something similar to the British 'Sale of Goods Act' and deals with things like goods not being of 'Merchantable quality'. Yes, instead of being  an 'engineer'. I did Commercial Studies.
> 
> So why wasn't the seller taken to task for his responsibility un the unsatisfactory sale?


He never replied & I was too late for PayPal. All I wanted was a replacement gear sent out, I would have rebuilt it. I had only used it a few times for bolt hole circles & this was the 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc with a 6mm HSS cutter in 2mm thick aluminium. It stopped rotating via the handle, so I finished the cut with a 12" bar to rotate the table.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

Peter Murphy said:


> He never replied & I was too late for PayPal. All I wanted was a replacement gear sent out, I would have rebuilt it. I had only used it a few times for bolt hole circles & this was the 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc with a 6mm HSS cutter in 2mm thick aluminium. It stopped rotating via the handle, so I finished the cut with a 12" bar to rotate the table.


Peter
          Who says PayPal is the 'be all and end all' of Australian jurisprudence?

I was brought up to appreciate those time immortal words--- What does the Law say?

Best Wishes

Norman


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## Peter Murphy (Aug 18, 2020)

goldstar31 said:


> Peter
> Who says PayPal is the 'be all and end all' of Australian jurisprudence?
> 
> I was brought up to appreciate those time immortal words--- What does the Law say?
> ...


Hi Norman,
I tried to get some justice, in the end I put it aside & will make another gear & make it better, as we do Lol.
Stay Safe.
Peter


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

Peter Murphy said:


> Hi Norman,
> I tried to get some justice, in the end I put it aside & will make another gear & make it better, as we do Lol.
> Stay Safe.
> Peter



Ah well, Peter!
I spent years in court prosecuting for my firm. Never lost a case 

And then there is that lovely act with the Indian( and others) fraternity of 'Taking salt'. 
Best Wishes

Norman


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 18, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> When did this happen?  did you let them know the condition?  That really sux.  I am hoping that like all the developing countries, or the ones that have already developed (Japan, Korea, Taiwan)  that started out with pert near krap, but kept going and started doing better work and better quality, Am hoping the same for India.  I don't want to support China anymore, but I will for the foreseeable future--just looking for alternatives.
> 
> PS.  I'm wondering if those dinosaur looking lathes they have in India are better than they look or as bad as they look.



It was a few years ago.  Probably five maybe.  I did let them know, but as has been my experience with India based vendors I didn’t get a very satisfactory response...  in the end, I gave appropriate negative feedback...  what more can you do short of returning the item.

Later, I spent six months living in India (Pune) investigating low cost tool manufacturing.  I found some interesting things about how tools and machines are made there and my experience there was invaluable.  But I will still go to China for “affordable” tools before I try India again.  India manufacturing is still decades behind China. Even the best manufacturers in India can’t hope to compete quality wise.  

The problem is that the market in India is not very demanding of quality.  And so the many hundreds of tool manufacturers there don’t have to try very hard to compete.  

I’ll give you an example.  Two wheeler service garages in India buy cheap tools to service scooters and bikes.  But they go through a few of these tools each year, because the heat treatment if there at all is [email protected] and the tools just wear out.  I was meeting with a service manager and he was complaining about a particular tool.  I asked him what it cost and he said 200 rupees (all tools cost 200 rupees).   That’s about 3 USD.  I said to him, so you pay 1000 - 1200 rupees a year for this tool.  Would you be prepared to pay 1000 rupees for a tool that lasted two years?  He said yes, but his manager would never let him.  The market says, a tool costs 200 rupees.  I did some searching.  Every vendor has the 200 rupee tool.  But a 1000 rupee high quality tool is just not available in India no matter how hard you look.

I suspect that heat treatment will be the killer for any Indian made machine tool.  At this stage, I would not be buying a machine tool made there.

Maybe you have philosophical reasons for not wanting to go to China for tools or machines, but I have friends and business colleagues there and over the years have developed good relationships with them.  I’ll continue to support those individual firms.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## OrangeAlpine (Aug 18, 2020)

I bought a made in India 6" rotary table from an Ebay supplier who has been around for several years and has an inhouse brand of tools.  I am very impressed.  Extensive machine finish and everything works very smoothly with no slop.  I have used it a couple of times, no complaints.  It may not be accurate down to 1/1000 of gnats ass, but for home shop use that is not necessary.  How it would hold up in commercial use is not only unknown, but vastly unimportant.  A good, usable tool for a reasonable (not the cheapest) price that will meet my needs for years.

A word of caution.  Things are very crowded on this tool.  You cannot just throw things together and expect perfect performance.  Take care when mounting the chuck and other accessories, making sure everything clears during full rotation.  I imagine this is an issue with almost any smallish rotary table.

I think a buyer who traffics with merchandisers offering machine tools along with sewing machines and blenders are asking for problems.

Bill


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## jwills8606 (Aug 18, 2020)

A couple of observations:  My undergraduate training is in electrical engineering, and I just retired from a 40-year medical practice, so I have had a great deal of interaction with Indian doctors and engineers.  I found them without exception lovely human beings - friendly, thoughtful, hardworking, and SMART!  Secondly, I have recently become "woke" to the threats that communists, socialists, and the like present to my country, so I am always looking for alternatives to Chinese goods, and while Indian machine tools are often not the best, I lean that way, since American-made tools are just so DARNED expensive.  Thirdly, farmers in my area have gravitated in droves to Indian-made Mahindra farm machinery and without exception praise the value-per-dollar and the ruggedness.  Right now I'm looking for a decent milling machine, and I'm looking first at Indian-made.


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## WOB (Aug 18, 2020)

None of the comments in this thread re Indian tool quality surprises me.   India was a major supplier of hobby grade tools  BC ( before China) back in the 80's when I first got into the home machine shop hobby.    Pakistan was also a supplier.   Both exported crap as described above.   I quit buying their stuff early on because of many bad experiences.     Things were tough back then because there was no Internet  and paper catalogs were the sole source of market info.  Imagine how it was with no ebay and no Amazon. 

It seems China has since taken over the hobby export market with maybe some improvement in general quality.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 18, 2020)

Slightly out of context but my professional electrical engineer who has been wiring for me has had THREE electricians tool folders whilst I have \binned' about 50 assorted worn out screwdrivers.

All this made me think more and more of the words cost overall and quality. 

OK, I have three battery drills- all Chinese and from the same German supermarket. Each has a THREE year unconditional warranty.

Sometime ago, my then computer ceased to function.  I'd lost my receipt but the purchase was traced and -  I got ALL my money back.

For the record, I have one  E-bay purchase and NO Paypal-- in my lifetime.  
I got a £100 Clarkson tool and cutter grinder. Yes £100 and paid in cash. No, I tell a lie--- I got a free magnetic chuck  as a gift.  
I studied Commerce- not engineering.


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## Nikhil Bhale (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi
I am from India and just starting out in this hobby.
But I too have a Chinese Sieg lathe.
And most of the tools I have were purchased on AliExpress.

Some of good INDIAN manufacturers may be
Industrial Tools Manufacturers India - Shobha Industries   SOBA brand chucks and vises.
Welcome to Zither Chuck    Lathe chucks
Buy Industrial and Business Supplies - MRO Products, Tools, Equipment and more gereral industrial supplier

One problem with not buying Indian tools is most Indian manufacturers do not have presence in the cyber world.
I live in a place which is mostly farm country and no industry. So no industrial suppliers here.
I can buy my tools from Amazon which are Chinese import or directly from Aliexpress which is cheaper.
Or if I buy from above mentioned site I have to get it in quantity which I dont want.

*jwills8606*

I was planning to buy this milling machine, but it is too heavy for me and may buy SX2.7 instead.








						DCM 40 mm - Drilling Cum Milling Machine - BANKA 40MM Auto Feed
					

BANKA 40 Drilling Cum Milling Machine…




					ravimachines.com
				





Rgrds
Nikhil


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## awake (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi Nikhil,

Where in India do you live? I visited in Kerala a few years ago, and part of what I learned on that visit is just how big and diverse India is!!


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 18, 2020)

India sure is big!  My comments about my time there and what I saw regarding tool quality were not meant to be negative.  Just observations.  The market provides what the market demands.  And the huge domestic market in India wants the low cost option.  

The few CNC Machining centres I saw in Pune factories were Taiwanese/Chinese made.  The lathes were all older style with exposed change gears.  I cant recall seeing a CNC Lathe in any of the factories I visited.

We had the option of visiting a manufacturer in the Punjab, but four days of traveling just to visit one factory was really not practical (we sent one person instead of ythe whole team).  As it turned out the perceived high quality of the tools that they produced was purely cosmetic.  The problem again was the lack of heat treatment.  The fact that the manufacturer was operating out of a domestic residence...  ahem...

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Richard Hed (Aug 18, 2020)

skarven said:


> My Indian 5MK test bar amazingly has three distinctly different axes. One for the tapered part, one for the cylindrical part and one for the two centre holes on the ends. I can see no use for it, and I wonder how they managed to make it like that!


I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh.  The tool I bought has all the important planes and right angles correct and well ground, the rest looks like a kids work.


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## Richard Hed (Aug 18, 2020)

Peter Murphy said:


> Hi Hugh,
> Mine was the same rubbish, sheared the pin off for the table gear 1st time I used it as a rotary milling table, milling an arc. I finished the job by using a bar to turn it as I was only milling some thin aluminium. When I pulled it apart I found the gear was not round & therefore was stripping the teeth on one side. I eventually replaced it with a Vertex (Taiwanese), much better.
> India need to get their act together as there is an opportunity to take alot of China's business.
> Cheers,
> Peter from Australia


Yes, that's what I'm thimking, I just don't want to get burnt buying the krap side of it.


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## Nikhil Bhale (Aug 19, 2020)

awake said:


> Hi Nikhil,
> 
> Where in India do you live? I visited in Kerala a few years ago, and part of what I learned on that visit is just how big and diverse India is!!


Hi,
I live in Vidharba region of Maharashtra state. We do not get many tourists here, although we have tiger reserves here.
We get some Britishers every year who come to pay homage to their fallen relatives who died in the battle of Argoan. Battle of Argaon - Wikipedia


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## L98fiero (Aug 19, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> The few CNC Machining centres I saw in Pune factories were Taiwanese/Chinese made.  The lathes were all older style with exposed change gears.  I cant recall seeing a CNC Lathe in any of the factories I visited.


Here in Canada, many of the older CNCs are being bought up by people exporting our 'junk' to India, in India they'll rebuild the machine, replace the controls if required and they're back in business, basically they buy the equipment we won't spend the money on repairing. I've seen them cut the bolts of a 1500 ton press with a cutting torch, they'll worry about assembly in India. They do pay better than scrap value though(a little).


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## BaronJ (Aug 19, 2020)

L98fiero said:


> Here in Canada, many of the older CNCs are being bought up by people exporting our 'junk' to India, in India they'll rebuild the machine, replace the controls if required and they're back in business, basically they buy the equipment we won't spend the money on repairing. I've seen them cut the bolts of a 1500 ton press with a cutting torch, they'll worry about assembly in India. They do pay better than scrap value though(a little).



Its not too long ago that there were a group of Indians going around the midlands visiting all and any factories and engineering establishments just buying any machine tools dead or not, containerising them and shipping them back to India.


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## awake (Aug 19, 2020)

Nikhil Bhale said:


> Hi,
> I live in Vidharba region of Maharashtra state. We do not get many tourists here, although we have tiger reserves here.
> We get some Britishers every year who come to pay homage to their fallen relatives who died in the battle of Argoan. Battle of Argaon - Wikipedia



Near Satupura reserve? Or Melghat? Or am I looking in the wrong part of Maharashtra?

The next time I go to India, I hope I can visit more than just the Kerala area - I'd like to see more of the country, and taste more of the regional foods. (I LOVE the food!!!)


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 19, 2020)

I think Vidharba is northern Maharashtra if I'm not mistaken.  It was a plan of mine while I was in Pune to visit a tiger sanctuary, but I quickly learned that what might be a reasonably travellable distance in half a day here in Australia, was generally a 2-3 day journey in India.  A visit to a factory in Belbaum (Just south of the border in Karnataka state (339 Km) saw us leave Pune at 4.30 in the morning, spend an hour at the factory, then arrive back in Pune at 1.30 the following morning.
Conversely, I flew from Pune to Bangalor to visit the TVS training centre (the other side of Bangalor from the airport (2,200 Rupee Uber trip)) and got back to Pune again in less than 8 hours.  Go figure.
Funny story.  Sitting in the "Indigo" A380 on the tarmac in Bangalor waiting for my flight back to Pune, middle of June, Christmas carols playing over the PA, I looked across to the other side of the cabin just in time to witness the internal window frame fall out into the window seat on the other side of the aisle.  The confluence of events did not make me feel at all well...  Especially since I had spent the previous week suffering the only bout of "Delhi Belly" that I experienced in my time in India...
As it happened, we got back safely to Pune albeit with the roughest landing I've ever experienced anywhere in the world.

I miss India.  What a place.  Nothing works at it should, but somehow, everything works.

After the Coronavirus thing is over.  I want to go back.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Nikhil Bhale (Aug 20, 2020)

awake said:


> Near Satupura reserve? Or Melghat? Or am I looking in the wrong part of Maharashtra?
> 
> The next time I go to India, I hope I can visit more than just the Kerala area - I'd like to see more of the country, and taste more of the regional foods. (I LOVE the food!!!)



Near Melghat.

Rgrds
Nikhil


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## Nikhil Bhale (Aug 20, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> The problem is that the market in India is not very demanding of quality. And so the many hundreds of tool manufacturers there don’t have to try very hard to compete.



I think you are right in what you said.

But I think the real reason is that small industries and services are cheap and profit margins are low. So no one will buy expensive tools and further lower their profit margin. For example for about USD 10 service charge an auto service mechanic will overhaul a motorcycle engine in India but you have to pay more in developed countries. 
I assume that the graph for quality of tool vs price is not a straight line (linear) graph. It will be an exponential graph. So for a little better quality you will have to pay a large amount of money. No one in India will accept that.

But large scale manufacturing units may go for quality. We have Widia, Sandvik, Izar, Tungaloy etc to supply those industries.

Regards
Nikhil


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## Richard Hed (Aug 20, 2020)

jwills8606 said:


> A couple of observations:  My undergraduate training is in electrical engineering, and I just retired from a 40-year medical practice, so I have had a great deal of interaction with Indian doctors and engineers.  I found them without exception lovely human beings - friendly, thoughtful, hardworking, and SMART!  Secondly, I have recently become "woke" to the threats that communists, socialists, and the like present to my country, so I am always looking for alternatives to Chinese goods, and while Indian machine tools are often not the best, I lean that way, since American-made tools are just so DARNED expensive.  Thirdly, farmers in my area have gravitated in droves to Indian-made Mahindra farm machinery and without exception praise the value-per-dollar and the ruggedness.  Right now I'm looking for a decent milling machine, and I'm looking first at Indian-made.


I thimk that Mahindra has had a recent improvement in quality--is that correct?


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 20, 2020)

Nikhil Bhale said:


> I think you are right in what you said.
> 
> But I think the real reason is that small industries and services are cheap and profit margins are low. So no one will buy expensive tools and further lower their profit margin. For example for about USD 10 service charge an auto service mechanic will overhaul a motorcycle engine in India but you have to pay more in developed countries.
> *I assume that the graph for quality of tool vs price is not a straight line (linear) graph. It will be an exponential graph. So for a little better quality you will have to pay a large amount of money. No one in India will accept that.*
> ...


You'd think so, but no.  The three to four month life span of the Clutch Nut Wrench I refered to earlier (200 Rupees), will be extended to many years by a) using a better material and b) more reliable heat treatment, but the cost will only increase to about 1000 Rupees.  Keeping in mind that the service centre in question is servicing upwards of 200 bikes a day.
There are two more factors to consider.
1.  The OEM Service garage competes against the roadside shed or trailer that uses no special service tools (I saw one bike being serviced with the front wheel removed and the forks being supported by a screw driver.
2.  If the service manager buys 4 or 5 tools at 200 Rupees, then they can be considered a consumable.  They do not need to be accounted for as an asset.  If he pays 1000 Rupees for a tool, it must be accounted for as an asset.  I do not know for certain that this is a factor, but it may be.

But as I have said previously, no matter how hard we tried, we could not find the higher quality tool available in the Indian Market.

When we tried to obtain a sample for TVS for spark plug removal in the Overhead Cam bikes...  gues where we had to go to find the cost effective solution? 
 China.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## awake (Aug 20, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> I quickly learned that what might be a reasonably travellable distance in half a day here in Australia, was generally a 2-3 day journey in India.



That was one of the big surprises to me when I was in India. From what I could see (maybe Nikhil will correct me!), part of the problem is that India really is big, and part of it is that the infrastructure often doesn't allow for an easy path from A to B. Some of the people I was working with were from the Nagaland (far northeast part of India), and invited me to visit there.  I would have loved to ... but it would have taken a week or more of travel. Alternately, I could have flown from Kochi to Singapore, then to Guwahati, then travelled another day or two. At least at the time, there were apparently no flights directly from Kochi to Guwahati!


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## Nikhil Bhale (Aug 20, 2020)

awake said:


> That was one of the big surprises to me when I was in India. From what I could see (maybe Nikhil will correct me!), part of the problem is that India really is big, and part of it is that the infrastructure often doesn't allow for an easy path from A to B. Some of the people I was working with were from the Nagaland (far northeast part of India), and invited me to visit there.  I would have loved to ... but it would have taken a week or more of travel. Alternately, I could have flown from Kochi to Singapore, then to Guwahati, then travelled another day or two. At least at the time, there were apparently no flights directly from Kochi to Guwahati!



Yes you are quite correct. Roads in India leave a lot to be desired. We dont have world class roads but now we are taking baby steps in that direction. 
Also flight connectivity is not extensive. Only 3 or 4 cities in every state are connected by air. But we do have extensive railway connectivity throughout India. 

On other point one of my friend works for Mahindra Tractors in R&D department. He told me that they use mostly Sandvik tools in their machine shop. 

Rgrds
Nikhil


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 20, 2020)

My wife and I did enjoy an 18 hour Train ride from Pune to New Delhi (about 2000 Km) when she came to visit.   If ever you go to India, you absolutely HAVE to go somewhere by train.  I recommend 1st Class AC (Air Conditioned), but I can see that traveling second or third class would be an experience all of its own.
(Notwithstanding the 13 hour delay in the train departing Pune...  Another experience you have to have is sitting on a train platform playing "Uno" and have an armed guard tell you that you have to stop or be arrested...  Oh, and another thing you learn while waiting for 13 hours on a train platform; The man with the whistle is king!)

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 20, 2020)

Richard Hed said:


> I thimk that Mahindra has had a recent improvement in quality--is that correct?



Mahindra tractors are also quite popular here in Australia.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Richard Hed (Aug 20, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> Mahindra tractors are also quite popular here in Australia.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hugh


I saw Mahindra automobiles for sale in the Philippines.  I was wondering if they wer3e selling krap to philippinos or if they were goo cars.


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 20, 2020)

There are three domestic (Four Wheeler) passenger vehicle manufacturers in India.  Mahindra, Tata and Maruti (which is aligned with Suzuki).  2 in 5 small sedans on the road are Maruti.  Mahindra and Tata export to South East Asia and Latin America.  They are very much a "LOW COST" build.  There is no luxury to be had in a base model and everything else is added extras and costs.  If you get a taxi from the airport to your hotel rather than take an "Auto" (short for Auto-Rickshaw, otherwise known as a tuk-tuk) it's going to be a Tata, Mahindra or Maruti built version of a Suzuki Swift.

Again, for the low demands of the local market, they are perfectly fine.

The vast majority of the vehicles on the roads are two wheelers (small capacity Motorcycles), TVS, Bajaj and Royal Enfield.  You will only see Royal Enfield outside of south east asia.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 20, 2020)

BTW, Mahindra, Bajaj and Tata have their fingers in lots of pies.  Not only Automotive, but banking, Insurance and retail.
If you go to a Mall, you'll see foreign retail stores that have in small print on the logo/banner "A Tata Alliance" or "Marindra Alliance".  Foreign businesses that want to set up in India have to align with a local company to to so.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## kvom (Aug 21, 2020)

I once bought some India-made carbide endmills.  They broke if I looked at them hard.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 21, 2020)

Much as I like the many fiends  whom I have made in the Indian continent and the Far East, I think that stick with China. Yes Hong Kong is now in turmoil and a couple of us, one half Chinese sunk about half a bottle of good Scottish Western Isles malt whisky to recall happy memories- perhaps never to return.

Well, dam-mitt, I have enjoyed using a home made ENGLISH small dividing head on an ENGLISH lathe that has now an English DRO.

And they ALL work.

Norman


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## deverett (Aug 23, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> There are three domestic (Four Wheeler) passenger vehicle manufacturers in India.  Mahindra, Tata and Maruti (which is aligned with Suzuki).  2 in 5 small sedans on the road are Maruti.  Mahindra and Tata export to South East Asia and Latin America.  They are very much a "LOW COST" build.  There is no luxury to be had in a base model and everything else is added extras and costs.  If you get a taxi from the airport to your hotel rather than take an "Auto" (short for Auto-Rickshaw, otherwise known as a tuk-tuk) it's going to be a Tata, Mahindra or Maruti built version of a Suzuki Swift.
> 
> Again, for the low demands of the local market, they are perfectly fine.
> 
> ...




When I was in India (many, many moons ago) the taxis were all Indian built Fiat 1100 models from yesteryear.  The 'Luxury' cars were Hindustans which were mid 1950s Morris Oxfords.

Dave
The Emerald Isle


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 23, 2020)

It was only about ten years ago that Royal Enfield redesigned the engine and running gear for the 350 and 500 cc "Bullet" based bikes.  Up until then, they were still using the 1950s tooling that had been sent over from the plant in England.
The older bikes have a reputation for being much more reliable than the newer ones.

Cheers,

Hugh


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## Richard Hed (Aug 23, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> It was only about ten years ago that Royal Enfield redesigned the engine and running gear for the 350 and 500 cc "Bullet" based bikes.  Up until then, they were still using the 1950s tooling that had been sent over from the plant in England.
> The older bikes have a reputation for being much more reliable than the newer ones.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


I have an aquaintance (NOT a friend) who bought a Royal Enfield in the Philippines.  He could not stop bragging about it and bought all brass this and that.  He did , however, know bikes very well and he approved of this bike.  I thimk it was in the 350 size.


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## awake (Aug 24, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> The older bikes have a reputation for being much more reliable than the newer ones.



I always wonder if part of the reason the older _____ (anything - fill in the blank) always seem more reliable than the new ones is that the older ones have been through natural selection - the crappy ones were scrapped long ago, and the exceptional ones are the ones that are left.

Of course, the situation varies widely across different types of items and different times. With regard to cars, for example, I wouldn't trade the reliability of my current cars for anything older. But I do remember the 70's, when everyone was suddenly trying to make more efficient cars ... at that time, some of the newer ones were definitely less reliable than the older ones. (Anyone remember the Vega??)


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## Richard Hed (Aug 24, 2020)

awake said:


> I always wonder if part of the reason the older _____ (anything - fill in the blank) always seem more reliable than the new ones is that the older ones have been through natural selection - the crappy ones were scrapped long ago, and the exceptional ones are the ones that are left.
> 
> Of course, the situation varies widely across different types of items and different times. With regard to cars, for example, I wouldn't trade the reliability of my current cars for anything older. But I do remember the 70's, when everyone was suddenly trying to make more efficient cars ... at that time, some of the newer ones were definitely less reliable than the older ones. (Anyone remember the Vega??)


Yes, there are several variables at work, most of them with bell-shaped curves:  quality by accident (that is, the ones on the high end of the bell shaped curve), the USA downturn in quality due to negligence on the part of the US manufacturors (1980s mostly) and of course, the present day competition to build cars that ARE NOT 3 year planned obsolescence, the new alloys, new materials and new techniques in making.


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## awake (Aug 24, 2020)

With regard to other types of products, it may go this way: initial design is over-engineered, and priced accordingly; efforts to reduce cost result in varying quality of designs; finally (hopefully) a happy medium is reached. Or, technology is applied, resulting in early failures as the design is refined, but eventually resulting in dirt-cheap and highly reliable silicon ...


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## Hrcoleman66 (Aug 24, 2020)

I think with the case of the older Royal Enfields, it has a lot to do with the tranfser of the design from Cast Iron Cylinders and heads and vertical split crank/gear casings to Alloy Cylinders and Heads completely different crank/gear case architecture.


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## Richard Hed (Aug 25, 2020)

Hrcoleman66 said:


> I think with the case of the older Royal Enfields, it has a lot to do with the tranfser of the design from Cast Iron Cylinders and heads and vertical split crank/gear casings to Alloy Cylinders and Heads completely different crank/gear case architecture.


That would ALWAYS make a difference.  Do you know any more about that?


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 15, 2022)

If you buy cheap overseas, expect cheap, and if it ends up being better than cheap, count your blessings. If the quality is poor, then that's why it didn't cost much.

I have been buying from Harbor Freight for over 20 years. In the beginning, it was definitely buyer beware. Now, 20 years later, the stuff still comes from China, you still have to read the reviews and know what "not to buy." But they do offer some very nice items at incredible prices. Their $99 (now about $125) OHV Predator engine is one of the best small engines I have ever purchased. And the Milwaukee look-alike portable power band/hack saw is another $99 dream.
But if you want a $99 tool to perform and last like the $400 original, and it doesn't, ........ take a look in the mirror, ......not at the tool. I still get burned every now and then, but that was the choice I made.

No offense meant.


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## Zeb (Dec 15, 2022)

Overseas, I owned two very good 80's vintage yamahas still made new in India. They were very reliable considering the amount of beating I gave them.
For heavier castings and items like an arbor press, you can also find gems. Price of steel in the US is horrendous. 

I like these videos from Pakistan. A lot of nuance that makes the setup required appear "easy".


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## Lloyd-ss (Dec 15, 2022)

So much raw talent in that video. Improvise as needed. Not having the right tool is not an acceptable excuse. Very humbling. (Just don't ask for the material certs.)


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