# Experimental Flash Steam and others



## Richard Hed

Since I inadvertently and mistakenly hog the blog, that is, write things that the original poster didn't intend to go there, I am starting my own blog to hog in this post.  Just first let me make things "perfectly clear" as R. Nixon might have said:  Please do not write on this thread unless Someone, anyone, nobody, a horse or a dog (or cat) might be interested.  Please make sure your subject is on anything you wish, or nothing you wish or anyone, someone, nobody, a horse, a dog or a cat might be interested in seeing or reading.  So please, be as irritating as you wish (like me), as nice or kind as yuou wish, use bad spelling (like my hero Ulysses), mis-use the words your, you're , there, they're and their,; and especially to, too and two; and please mispronounce neither and either, potato and tomato.  Whatever you do, do NOT become a couch tomato!

With that out of the way, I recieved today a copy of "Experimental Flash Steam" by Benson and Rayman.  it's a short little book with 189 pages but packt with interesting stuff with that old moldy smell forbidden books.  As a writer myself, I can't help but critique other's writing, (please don't excuse me for this).  These fellow's writing is superb in that it is compact, filled with meaningful sentences and the plot is excruciatingly delish.  One complaint I have, like missing maps in books on wars or the mention of a city or town in one of those books which isn't on th emap, is when someone, particularly this book mentions a boiler type, but doesn't have a quick illustration of it.  Of course, books, as we all know are from the dark ages befor the internet, and possibly worse, before cruise control! and that left us with paper bound by thick cardboard and sometimes human leather, so we must allow for the expense of that paper and thus space constraints on printing willy nilly.  Anyway the very first paragraph of this book definitely caught me.  Please let me read it for you:

Flash Steam!  These magic words have caught the imagination of steam lovers and other enthusiasts for well over 60 years.  It is perhaps not generally realised that the principle was probably first employed by Jacob Perkins early in the 19th century.  This gentleman is best remembered for his invention of the steam gun.  It was capable of discharging musket balls at 1,000 per minute, and the Duke of Wellington turned it down as being 'too destructive'!

Well, I've only started on the book (I only look at the pictures, as I don't know how to read, but please don't tell anyone), and it's a page turner which I am sure I will not put down till I can't even keep my eyes open with tooth picks or a cattle prod.

In the second chapter there is a bit on White Steam car, a bunch on the Doble, some engines I never heard of, and a bit on trains and boats.  The third chapter is about homebuilt cars including a Westbury engine, V4, which looks very intriquing.  chapter 4: applications to models.  Lots of interesting things between till chapter 12:  some modern flash steamers.  Of course that gets a laugh out of me since this book was printed in 1973.  Wasn't that around the year Winston Churchill was born?  or maybe that was A. Lincoln.  Anyone else have this book?  Recommend (check mark).


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## goldstar31

No! Winston Churchill played at Chequers

OK, OK, it's a pun


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## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> No! Winston Churchill played at Chequers
> 
> OK, OK, it's a pun


Oh haw ha, I got that.  Did you know that Winnie was a major (I thimpfk) in WWI after he left his job as 1st Admiral (or whatever it is called) when one day his colonel sent a message to come to see the colonel.  So Winnie trudged the cursed 12 miles! one way in the mud (most likely up hill both ways).  When he got to see the colonel, the colonel forgot what he wanted to see Winnie for.  So Winnie, cursing as you can imagine, trudging thru the muck (up hill both ways) and finally arriving at his command post to find the command post WAS GONE!  It had been struck by a cannon missile and obliterated!  This is a true story.  Really.  Divine providence?  total coincidence?  cosmic necessity?  I don't know but I certainly am amazed at this.   (BTW, for those of yuou who wish to know, my vote for the greatest man living in the 2nd millenia is Winston Churchill.)


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## Richard Hed

Richard Hed said:


> Oh haw ha, I got that.  Did you know that Winnie was a major (I thimpfk) in WWI after he left his job as 1st Admiral (or whatever it is called) when one day his colonel sent a message to come to see the colonel.  So Winnie trudged the cursed 12 miles! one way in the mud (most likely up hill both ways).  When he got to see the colonel, the colonel forgot what he wanted to see Winnie for.  So Winnie, cursing as you can imagine, trudging thru the muck (up hill both ways) and finally arriving at his command post to find the command post WAS GONE!  It had been struck by a cannon missile and obliterated!  This is a true story.  Really.  Divine providence?  total coincidence?  cosmic necessity?  I don't know but I certainly am amazed at this.   (BTW, for those of yuou who wish to know, my vote for the greatest man living in the 2nd millenia is Winston Churchill.)



If you make a pun, is that a punt?


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## goldstar31

Richard Hed said:


> If you make a pun, is that a punt?


Only if you make a slip between  Chartwell and Cherwell. The Gleaming spires with piss pots on the gargoyles!

And then there was 'Alice'- Alice Pleasance Hargreaves nee Liddell and her Dad who wrote the Lexicon. All Greek to you?????


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## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> Only if you make a slip between  Chartwell and Cherwell. The Gleaming spires with piss pots on the gargoyles!
> 
> And then there was 'Alice'- Alice Pleasance Hargreaves nee Liddell and her Dad who wrote the Lexicon. All Greek to you?????


Hebrew


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## goldstar31

Richard Hed said:


> Hebrew


 Sorry be reread. It was from the greek.
Somewhere in the vastness of time  Dean Henry Liddellof Oxford is a relative through marriage- or a castle which fell down or  because his daughter "Alice in Wonderland" knocked the sh1t out of one of Queen Victoria's many infants and therefore never became Queen.  Lizzie Bowes-Lyon whose folks had a  'pad' next door to the Ravensworth Castle- did. 

Shame really really, I always fancied being nobbled or ennobled but heigh ho.  I did become a Spanish Don but that isn't quite the same-- but as the song said--  By Jove how the Money rolled in - rolled in


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## Richard Hed

goldstar31 said:


> Sorry be reread. It was from the greek.
> Somewhere in the vastness of time  Dean Henry Liddellof Oxford is a relative through marriage- or a castle which fell down or  because his daughter "Alice in Wonderland" knocked the sh1t out of one of Queen Victoria's many infants and therefore never became Queen.  Lizzie Bowes-Lyon whose folks had a  'pad' next door to the Ravensworth Castle- did.
> 
> Shame really really, I always fancied being nobbled or ennobled but heigh ho.  I did become a Spanish Don but that isn't quite the same-- but as the song said--  By Jove how the Money rolled in - rolled in


I'm a Don: Don Ito or Donito.  Pronounced doaneetoh


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## fcheslop

Did Winny not have something to do with sending the army to sort the Welsh miner out even shot a couple. Dam strikers Maggy the milk snatcher must have taken lessons from him
No gentleman he gave his parole and broke it I believe or is that yet another myth .
Another good little book High Speed Steam A A Raymon


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## goldstar31

fcheslop said:


> Did Winny not have something to do with sending the army to sort the Welsh miner out even shot a couple. Dam strikers Maggy the milk snatcher must have taken lessons from him
> No gentleman he gave his parole and broke it I believe or is that yet another myth .
> Another good little book High Speed Steam A A Raymon



Hi Frazer- Hope all is well-well?
Winnie actually  - changed his Political Party---- Liberals to Conservatives.
Again, you are quite right- He turned the troops on the coal miners.

Oh Maggie???   Never liked the woman. 
I can't recall Winston but wasn't he a War Correspondent in South Africa?
Having said vall that- Is there any politician to be trusted? 
Again, it was Labour with the Empire Windrush but we poor buggers in National Service who got worse. We were on 4 shillings a day and out of that had to pay out for blanco and boot polish and NAAFI breaks because the food was both scarce and almost inedible anyway. 'Cookie' my top clerk at RAF Hendon  was a vegetarian and his weight dropped to 6 and a half stone and was as skinny an an inmate in a German prison camp.
Cookie died recently at Ouston, and I trained him up to get promtion of an extra  one shilling a day which meant all the difference Chester Le Street. Johnny, my mate was on 7 shillings a day as the best Merlin engine basher that we had. I forged him leave passes on the London underground so that he could go home at night. Fred Higginson was the top airframe rigger on the same pay, was killed on the v21st April 1949 and the RAF wanted £2.12 and 6 pence to send his body back to Chester. That money was almost a King's Ransom.
I was the 'bright lad and offered a commission from the ranks. My Dad was a  colliery blacksmith/farrier and we couldn't afford the bills in the Officers' Mess.
Instead, I shot up to the dizzy heights of Corporal (Paid) and had all of 3 guineas a week and I paid both tax and National Insurance out of that. 

Politicians-- I could go on.


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## Richard Hed

I read somewhere that during WWI someone had tried to use steam powered cannons.  Apparently they workt very well but something went wrong.  It might have been that it rusted the barrels but I'm not sure what happened.  Of course, the cannons needed one heck of a steam generator which woujld not have been mobile.  On ships they might have workt well because their mobility would have been on the ship itself, and thus not really a necessity to be mobile.  Has anyone else ever heard of this?  I'm very curious as steam pressure can move mountains.


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## goldstar31

Both Archimedes and Da Vinci had  are reputed to have tried but again, air in torpedoes ?
I do recall as a snotty nosed bundle of battery spots the two ball shaped  compressed air cylnders i the V1 rockets to drive the  navigating systems.  I slept in a pre-war barrack block which had been  hit. 
However it is all academic because a full broadside of 14 or 16 inchers???


I recall HMS Manchester letting fly off Tynemouth in ?1937 before she was attacked by British Swordfish torpedo bombers. Again, I recall but now a 6 foot tall snotty nosed urchin 'inspecting' a Stringbag that had come in to be  mended at RAF Hendon.


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## fcheslop

Hi Norm , I believe it was as a war correspondent that he was captured and gave his parole. 
All is well this end although Im struggling to keep up with the social calendar and sister bacteria is still running a dry house . 
keep well all


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## goldstar31

fcheslop said:


> Hi Norm , I believe it was as a war correspondent that he was captured and gave his parole.
> All is well this end although Im struggling to keep up with the social calendar and sister bacteria is still running a dry house .
> keep well all



It was the Boer War! I'm glad that you are OK( Well sort of)
Yes my gay, social whorl is at 4PM on a Sunday that a kind neighbour brings in my Sunday dinner.
Wonderful stuff.
I'm  fed up with old TV and I could do with something exciting-- like 2 flies walking up down the windows
I've sent you a PM

Meantime

Be Safe

Norman


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## Richard Hed

Yes, Winnie was a correspondent in S.Africa, the Boer War, but he was captured then escaped.  He might have been captured again, don't remember.  But HE wrote the bit on himself which made him famous.  (The the Prime Minister of OZ who always counted the votes!)  He changed parties TWICE, first he was a Tory, then a Liberal and lastly a Conseervative.  He always changed over when the parties had calcified and stultified into inability to get anything done.  Just like the dumocrats and ratlicans in USA today


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## Steamchick

Thanks Richard, for the comment about the book. I have just ordered one to burn in my boiler and watch it make flash steam.... I think? But first I'll ask the child (49 - going on 7..) to explain the pictures... as I am sure they are talknickle. Is Benson and Rayman a company that makes hot stuff like Benson and Hedges? - but Rayman being the lazer psuedonym of the tramp's bonfire?
A great site! - Or is that a Grate Sight?
Norman, WHile you wer hod-nobbing through life, I am a simple serf. I live on land that used to be Bowes-Lyon estate - 999 year leasehold for 6 guineas p.a.  - until the solicitor wanted more than that every year to collect the rent! So I had to buy the land from Dear Old Lizzie... Money grabbing Lawyers destroy everything - including our heritage! Almost as bad as politicians - who promise everything then take it for themselves! Winnie and Maggie were the exceptions: She promised to take the school milk - and did. He promised "blood toil tears and sweat" - and delivered. - Respect! - Love 'em both! I'll not mention Brexit, for fear of your blood pressure.... 
But for Richard's benefit: Wasn't it the MacCarthy plan wanted to make the German Christian Democrats the power in Europe with their unifornication of economies back in '47? (before I was born - pre-history!). With Mrs. Mercall as the Christian Democratic head of Europe, it has worked after 70 years. Brexit is the British finally saying "NO" to the political unifornication and taxification of UK and Europe. It was - and is still - just a pond for the big fish to feed on the smaller fry, where there are Piranhas that feed off the big fish as well! I'm sure the US economic policy after WW2 has been to finance the Germans so they are rich enough for everyone to want to join them (= EU) - and make everyone else poor enough not to be able to resist them. Hence no more wars? Took Britain till the mid-60s to repay the loans from the US. Did Germany ever pay back a Penny/Mark or Dime of the money the US poured in to rebuild Germany? I suspect that when the news (a decade or so ago?) that Britain was one of only 3 countries putting more money into EU than getting out from the EU (We were told that 25 take more out than pay in!), combined with the news at the time that we were the 3rd from poorest country after Greece and Spain - made the steam effuse from British ears like the steam cannon that launched post-string-bag aircraft from ships! We like a bit of fairness in Britain. (Providing we are at the top of the pile receiving fairness!).
(Did you like the way I managed to get back to steam cannon at the end? - Taxed my noggin just a bit!).
K2


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Richard, for the comment about the book. I have just ordered one to burn in my boiler and watch it make flash steam.... I think? But first I'll ask the child (49 - going on 7..) to explain the pictures... as I am sure they are talknickle. Is Benson and Rayman a company that makes hot stuff like Benson and Hedges? - but Rayman being the lazer psuedonym of the tramp's bonfire?
> A great site! - Or is that a Grate Sight?
> Norman, WHile you wer hod-nobbing through life, I am a simple serf. I live on land that used to be Bowes-Lyon estate - 999 year leasehold for 6 guineas p.a.  - until the solicitor wanted more than that every year to collect the rent! So I had to buy the land from Dear Old Lizzie... Money grabbing Lawyers destroy everything - including our heritage! Almost as bad as politicians - who promise everything then take it for themselves! Winnie and Maggie were the exceptions: She promised to take the school milk - and did. He promised "blood toil tears and sweat" - and delivered. - Respect! - Love 'em both! I'll not mention Brexit, for fear of your blood pressure....
> But for Richard's benefit: Wasn't it the MacCarthy plan wanted to make the German Christian Democrats the power in Europe with their unifornication of economies back in '47? (before I was born - pre-history!). With Mrs. Mercall as the Christian Democratic head of Europe, it has worked after 70 years. Brexit is the British finally saying "NO" to the political unifornication and taxification of UK and Europe. It was - and is still - just a pond for the big fish to feed on the smaller fry, where there are Piranhas that feed off the big fish as well! I'm sure the US economic policy after WW2 has been to finance the Germans so they are rich enough for everyone to want to join them (= EU) - and make everyone else poor enough not to be able to resist them. Hence no more wars? Took Britain till the mid-60s to repay the loans from the US. Did Germany ever pay back a Penny/Mark or Dime of the money the US poured in to rebuild Germany? I suspect that when the news (a decade or so ago?) that Britain was one of only 3 countries putting more money into EU than getting out from the EU (We were told that 25 take more out than pay in!), combined with the news at the time that we were the 3rd from poorest country after Greece and Spain - made the steam effuse from British ears like the steam cannon that launched post-string-bag aircraft from ships! We like a bit of fairness in Britain. (Providing we are at the top of the pile receiving fairness!).
> (Did you like the way I managed to get back to steam cannon at the end? - Taxed my noggin just a bit!).
> K2


yes, I didded like that.  Don't know about McCarthy.  The EU unifornication, I thimkpfk is an international bankster trick -- you can tell by the way that no-one is elected, the money is all the same but DEBT is trixsy (Greece).  Luv yer pantomine at the top (wordomine?)


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## Steamchick

Did you know that the EU and the Vatican are the only 2 bodies in the world that do not audit their accounts? - Well, in the case of the Vatican, they do not have Italian auditors as they answer only to "higher authorities" - and are so truthful no-one should doubt their honesty. Wish the same applied to the EU parliament! - Even "Feds in Washington" audit their books. 
K2


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## goldstar31

Steamchick said:


> Did you know that the EU and the Vatican are the only 2 bodies in the world that do not audit their accounts? - Well, in the case of the Vatican, they do not have Italian auditors as they answer only to "higher authorities" - and are so truthful no-one should doubt their honesty. Wish the same applied to the EU parliament! - Even "Feds in Washington" audit their books.
> K2



Oh my Gawd!  Heaven preserve us.


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Did you know that the EU and the Vatican are the only 2 bodies in the world that do not audit their accounts? - Well, in the case of the Vatican, they do not have Italian auditors as they answer only to "higher authorities" - and are so truthful no-one should doubt their honesty. Wish the same applied to the EU parliament! - Even "Feds in Washington" audit their books.
> K2


Didn't know that but it certainly is an opportunity for somebody.


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## goldstar31

MODERATORS?  I hope that you will realise that this poster is again attempting to denigrate another poster and morre importantly, one who is extremely ahed and infirm but still trying to take a responsible place in caring for others at all of 90+.
The news broke this morning which has absolutely nothing whatsoever with 'whatever he is peddling'. 
The vaccines are working and first results are suggesting that this 'yet another plague' might be minimised or eradicated.  It is thanks to those who working tirelessly in the affairs of man for the rest of us to give our heartfelt thanks. 

And so to our feet of clay-- or mine, I'm a major shareholder in one of these firms who sees to be winnng and again, another one which seems to be on the right track.
Take. heed, I'm NOT anyone's fool. The resulting dividends from my prudence is rather pleasant. I can choose their destiny .
The words despite their age ring clearly for those  who will listen. Faith, Hope and Charity and we are reminded that the greatest is Charity.

Happily, I am far from being alome in this and WE. simply enjoy doing so with scant little interest in SELF.


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## goldstar31

Earlier remarks- deleted.---------------  Thank You

I suffer from macular degeneration so why waste what little on what you seemed to think important.


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## mcostello

If They are auditing Our books, I hope they use red ink when making entries.


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## Richard Hed

Well, I was trying to sort out the dimensions of the Coles/Ray Corliss throttle section when I realized it was nowhere to be found in my drawings!  Disgusted and disappointed, I had to go to the original dwgs which AW Ray made back in '46.  Besides the age of these drawings, that is, they are very faded, there are missing dims, too many over dimmed and difficult to decipher.   
Also, I am using Autodesk Architectural for mechanical drawings which is clumsy to say the least.  I have an old copy of Inventor which is great, however, it doesn't work properly on the newest version of microsux.  I have an older computer that I probably will have to drag out to use Inventor.  Inventor is far superior to AutoCADs Architectural program (that is, for mechanical usage.)  With Inventor, all drawings a 3D from the very start.  Making 2D printable drawings is extremely easy and making cross sections is extremely easy.  I'm thimpfking I'll try to find that SolidWorks program that someone said we can get for 20$.  I thimpfk that is very nice of SolidWorks to do that for retired folks, students and handi-capped.


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## Steamchick

I am using a 12 year old computer... seems to have plenty of computing power for the web and regular documents, etc. But when I was working, we needed HUGE computers for the CAD stuff - just to open and manipulate drawings - compared to the regular "office" sized computers. Currently I have 680 Gb computer memory of which around 100 Gb used. (My brain is tiny by comparison!). I can't find processor speed or don't know how.... or other parameters that will need to be checked. (My chalk and slate is still working in the Garage, without any battery charging. The slide rules all work well, my vernier callipers are still in calibration and my micrometers are battery free... picture of chalk and slate in conjunction with a steel rule attached! - it is in weekly use.). My only powered design tool is a calculator - from the 1980s. I've not worn it out yet and only changed the solar rechargable battery once... I never learned to do my design calculations on computers, as they were only huge company mainframe things when I was a design engineer - programmed by specialist programmers who typed punched cards with their programmes! Very "1970s film" stuff with huge cabinets with whirling spools of tape and green text computer screens.
What size computer are you on Richard? - is it big enough for Solid Works? - I should get something so I can import drawing plans etc. For my own stuff I happily use a tee-square and board with pencil, pen & paper. Roll-on the revolution? And when I have done any calculations I know what they mean - not just a number produced by a computer... from any rubbish or random numbers that are input...
NOW: Posty has just called: I received today a copy of "Experimental Flash Steam" by Benson and Rayman. - To quote Richard (above). I have not opened it yet - must go "shopping" with the boss. So I'll let you know what's what when I have read it.
Cheers boys!
Ken


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I am using a 12 year old computer... seems to have plenty of computing power for the web and regular documents, etc. But when I was working, we needed HUGE computers for the CAD stuff - just to open and manipulate drawings - compared to the regular "office" sized computers. Currently I have 680 Gb computer memory of which around 100 Gb used. (My brain is tiny by comparison!). I can't find processor speed or don't know how.... or other parameters that will need to be checked. (My chalk and slate is still working in the Garage, without any battery charging. The slide rules all work well, my vernier callipers are still in calibration and my micrometers are battery free... picture of chalk and slate in conjunction with a steel rule attached! - it is in weekly use.). My only powered design tool is a calculator - from the 1980s. I've not worn it out yet and only changed the solar rechargable battery once... I never learned to do my design calculations on computers, as they were only huge company mainframe things when I was a design engineer - programmed by specialist programmers who typed punched cards with their programmes! Very "1970s film" stuff with huge cabinets with whirling spools of tape and green text computer screens.
> What size computer are you on Richard? - is it big enough for Solid Works? - I should get something so I can import drawing plans etc. For my own stuff I happily use a tee-square and board with pencil, pen & paper. Roll-on the revolution? And when I have done any calculations I know what they mean - not just a number produced by a computer... from any rubbish or random numbers that are input...
> NOW: Posty has just called: I received today a copy of "Experimental Flash Steam" by Benson and Rayman. - To quote Richard (above). I have not opened it yet - must go "shopping" with the boss. So I'll let you know what's what when I have read it.
> Cheers boys!
> Ken


I've got a couple computers much older than that which still work, but I have to protect them from my children.  If the computers get in the way, the kidz will chuck them (not in the lathe chuch either).  The tower computer is in a difficult to get at place but I only use it if I run into a problem like the "Inventor" problem.  I don't know what it's computing parameters are without looking, and that is difficult to do.

I have a laptop that the little wifey bought me when my last one went tits up in November of last year (it must have been that infernal election that did it in) which I am using this very moment.  It's a Lenovo as I insist that HP and Dell are krap.  I thimk the best one I ever owned was a Samsung but for some ridiculous reason Samsungs are impossible to find here now--maybe because they are TOO good and the corporations don't want any competition around that lasts more than 18 months--planned obsolescence.  Anyway, this is 2.11 GHz with 8GB memory.  The one thing I do not like about this is the small SSD hard drive of only 237GB.  I have to have external hard drive hookt up.

Yes this is powerful enough to run SolidWorks and some other powerful programs all at the same time.  I started out computer programming with punch cards--what a tough way to do programming.  My first computer was a Radio Shack TRS80 which had a very small memory, ran at a phenomenal speed of 4 MHz!  The permanent memory was a tape recorder.  I bought two disk drives eventually which held 40 KBytes of memory each and cost 500$ each.  In the end the system cost 5000$ which in today's $$ would be somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000$.  I sent the thing to the trash about 20 years ago.  NOW it is a collectors item LOL.  Actually the best computer I ever owned and still own it 30 years later is (and it still works) the Amiga 500.  It was better constructed at the time than any other computer and it ran circles around it's competition for about 8 years.  They went out of business because of bad marketing strategy.

If you enjoy drawing by pencil, that in itself is reason to do it.  But it is not really productive if you are in business or a hurry.  I can push a pencil and I DO enjoy it but I have too many irons sitting next to the fire because the fire is full of irons which I have to do something with so I never use the pencil method.  Then of course the storage problem is much reduced with computers--no need for storage cabinet and the ability to find your files is much easier (be sure to have your files in at least TWO media storage drives--they still crash sometimes).  Using 3D drafting, oddly, is actually EASIER than 2D!  I would not have believed it lest I had danced on the keyboard with my own fingertips doing it.  And one of the more difficult dwgs to do is the cross-section which you really have to have your ducks in a row on a ball with a thimking cap and a hot cup o'java with half & half and honey.  But with 3D, a cross-section is just as easy as the original 3D dwg.  Also, to make 2Ds for printing is extremely easy.  So if you want some speed, get a 3D program.  If you are in no hurry, I have two drafting tables for sale--one is a s small one about 3'X4' on a stand with an arm, and the other is a huge one, very heavy with an arm bout 4'X 8'.  Which one do you want?(LOL)


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## Steamchick

Hi Richard, thanks for the offer but I don't  need the boards. I have mine, my Father's and Grandfather's. Different sizes. But on computers, my Millenium Compaq has given up the ghost. My 2004 HP expired a few months ago. FAN not cooling! But my 2008 HP is a goodun! Just don't  know how long before the final Flash, bang, black! But data is backed up on a hard-drive. Maybe time for something new?
I'll have a look at autoCad...
Ken


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## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, thanks for the offer but I don't  need the boards. I have mine, my Father's and Grandfather's. Different sizes. But on computers, my Millenium Compaq has given up the ghost. My 2004 HP expired a few months ago. FAN not cooling! But my 2008 HP is a goodun! Just don't  know how long before the final Flash, bang, black! But data is backed up on a hard-drive. Maybe time for something new?
> I'll have a look at autoCad...
> Ken


HPs, in my not so humble opinion, is one of the worst, far over-rated.  I have had many of them and they are CERTAINLY engineered to last 18months + 1 day.  I neveer want another one--EVER!  My suggestion is Acer, Lenovo or my favorite, Samsung.  They have moved from rotating hard drives to SSD--Solid State Drives, which are basically just thumb drives.  What I don't like is they are very stingy with the SSD.  My Lenovo has 235GB of SSD but I want (and I thimpfks I needs) 1 TB!  The fact that they now use SSD means the machine keeps cooler and makes less noise.  Have you tried Linux operating system?  It's cool in ways microsux can't even thimpfk of.  If you want to try Linux you can do dual-OS which means you have your choice of operating systems at boot up.  Linux or Sux.  IN FACT!  Linux is so kool that you can boot up in Linux and RUN sux as a program!  Har har har.  It's almost impossible to get a virus with Linux, BTW.  The prob with Linux is that there are far fewer programs for it because the commercial world operates on un-gog-magogly profits.  Or wait, I guess that shlould be gog-magogly profits.  If you have not tried Linux, I recommend you get a friend who uses it to help you install it.  It might be a bit intimidating (and possibly disasterous) for a 1st timer.  You needs a bit more hard drive space for it but not much.  You might see that the bloated msux system uses HUGE amounts of space but the Linux OS uses hardly any, is NOT bloated and works BETTER than Sux.  The file system of Linux is very compact.  Using Linux you can import ANY file system ever used to date.  I have SUSE 9.2 which is very out of date, but I just could HUG it.  I can have up to 16 desk tops opened at once.  In each desktop, I can have as many programs opened as a sux machine can have.  I can say a LOT more for the praises of LInux but I thimk there is not enough space to write a book.  Anyway, you could probably get a book like Linux for Retards or something like that.


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## Steamchick

Hi Richard - I have just looked at the label - it says Dell! SO not HP after all. I have a LINUX stick I bought to plug-in to my 2004 Dell, but it was actually just 1 generation too old for the Linux OP system to take over. I do not have any problems with the current 2008 Dell, but would I see some benefit from using the Linux system on that one? - I just don't know what difference I will see to appreciate applying it... Will my McAffee security throw a fit? Ignore it? Or just get on with life and continue to work? - Not knowing - and it currently isn't broken - I have no motivation to change - except your praise for it. Will any of my current files translate and work in Linux? - e.g. my office package (I save as docs etc. so they can translate and send to systems like this website) , or family tree GED files? My biggest bugbear in life is having to change some systems when Miseryshaft change generation and all my old stuff (including printers, scanners and purchased software like "treeware") fails with the "new" windows - with bars on and shutters down! I have old cartridges for my perfectly good printer that I can't use! - What's the sense for anyone to support that sort of system! I suppose it it is like changing from selling lathe tools to changing system so people buy a new lathe every 5 years! - And I'm too old to want this "new world"  of change. (I'll be dead before they ban IC engines - I hope!). George Orwell was more right then even he expected. Big Brother rules! - especially with COVID around. (Though I believe in Quarantine for controlling the spread of disease - unlike most who seem to find it doesn't apply the them!).
Nuff said.
K2


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> snip
> I have SUSE 9.2 which is very out of date, but I just could HUG it.  I can have up to 16 desk tops opened at once.  In each desktop, I can have as many programs opened as a sux machine can have.  I can say a LOT more for the praises of LInux but I thimk there is not enough space to write a book.  Anyway, you could probably get a book like Linux for Retards or something like that.



16 desktops -- - - - I've got 20 and still don't have enough room. 
Trying to have a desktop dedicated to each kind of function. 
One major issue - - - - CAD - - - they now call modelling CAD but I need to be able to do something where I can also put all the technical details into the 'drawing' and FreeCAD just doesn't believe in being practical. So far I've been using LibreCAD using mathematics to draw from point to point. FreeCAD works but I don't just model stuff I make it and that mostly doesn't seem to be what the 'coders' are doing. 
These problems might just be me but this software seems to be designed to be a pain to use and then there is only ONE way to do most things. (Like specifying things only counter clock-wise IIRC.)
Oh well I'll stop - - - - not really contributing anything useful re: CAD.
Besides CAD where M$ has the market sewn up real tight there isn't much that you can't do in *nix land.
I've been running various iterations for somewhat over 20 years.
HTH


----------



## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard - I have just looked at the label - it says Dell! SO not HP after all. I have a LINUX stick I bought to plug-in to my 2004 Dell, but it was actually just 1 generation too old for the Linux OP system to take over. I do not have any problems with the current 2008 Dell, but would I see some benefit from using the Linux system on that one? - I just don't know what difference I will see to appreciate applying it... Will my McAffee security throw a fit? Ignore it? Or just get on with life and continue to work? - Not knowing - and it currently isn't broken - I have no motivation to change - except your praise for it. Will any of my current files translate and work in Linux? - e.g. my office package (I save as docs etc. so they can translate and send to systems like this website) , or family tree GED files? My biggest bugbear in life is having to change some systems when Miseryshaft change generation and all my old stuff (including printers, scanners and purchased software like "treeware") fails with the "new" windows - with bars on and shutters down! I have old cartridges for my perfectly good printer that I can't use! - What's the sense for anyone to support that sort of system! I suppose it it is like changing from selling lathe tools to changing system so people buy a new lathe every 5 years! - And I'm too old to want this "new world"  of change. (I'll be dead before they ban IC engines - I hope!). George Orwell was more right then even he expected. Big Brother rules! - especially with COVID around. (Though I believe in Quarantine for controlling the spread of disease - unlike most who seem to find it doesn't apply the them!).
> Nuff said.
> K2


On linux I can read your word97 files, edit them, and save them - - - - all in word97 (or whater year that was!) format. 
Can't do that with the M$ product! 
If you write very complicated spreadsheets and use lots of VB then not everything will go well for you in LibreOffice Calc but I"m sure that you would be able to add whatever would be needed to make such do what you want. I'm not much into pretty pictures so my spreadsheets don't usually 'need' any programming. There are also some interesting tools there that are not available in the M$ world (like Ledger for your record keeping - - - but maybe there is a windows runnable version - - - - just haven't checked!).


----------



## goldstar31

Ken2
         I have a Dell laptop which seems to have a dead battery. The year on the Windows7 Professional is 2012.

I'm in lockdown at just North of Newcastle upon Tyne.
Is it any use to you?

Regards

Norman


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks for the offer Norman, 
But no thanks, I only need to do something if this old beauty falls off the table... I'm going to have a look at CAD... just because I have a bit of time while it is too cold in the Garage - or garden.... And I'm hoping it's more fun than sitting and whatever in front of the TV.... 
Or maybe it is just "a different seat and different programme"? You are allowed to groan at that pun...
I'll go and do some silver soldering -  3 blow-lamp job - That's warm!
Ken


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard - I have just looked at the label - it says Dell! SO not HP after all. I have a LINUX stick I bought to plug-in to my 2004 Dell, but it was actually just 1 generation too old for the Linux OP system to take over. I do not have any problems with the current 2008 Dell, but would I see some benefit from using the Linux system on that one? - I just don't know what difference I will see to appreciate applying it... Will my McAffee security throw a fit? Ignore it? Or just get on with life and continue to work? - Not knowing - and it currently isn't broken - I have no motivation to change - except your praise for it. Will any of my current files translate and work in Linux? - e.g. my office package (I save as docs etc. so they can translate and send to systems like this website) , or family tree GED files? My biggest bugbear in life is having to change some systems when Miseryshaft change generation and all my old stuff (including printers, scanners and purchased software like "treeware") fails with the "new" windows - with bars on and shutters down! I have old cartridges for my perfectly good printer that I can't use! - What's the sense for anyone to support that sort of system! I suppose it it is like changing from selling lathe tools to changing system so people buy a new lathe every 5 years! - And I'm too old to want this "new world"  of change. (I'll be dead before they ban IC engines - I hope!). George Orwell was more right then even he expected. Big Brother rules! - especially with COVID around. (Though I believe in Quarantine for controlling the spread of disease - unlike most who seem to find it doesn't apply the them!).
> Nuff said.
> K2


Linux has some interesting things that are not available at all with 'msux' but as for things of all types that are simply "written" which includes documents, spreadsheets, presentations, data bases, drawings (up to a point, probably simple, as I have never tried it) and math formulas, Linux will do it, importing or exporting in any known format.  The biggest problem with Linux is that it does not directly run your 'msux' programs.  But like I said, Linux can RUN 'msux' itself as a program, then from inside 'msux' you can run other programs.  There are a lot of differences with Linux which I thimpfk you would like, but it DOES take a bit of learning curve--ultimately, it's FUN!  Better card games, chess and some other games like that--your choice to play or even to install them (I haven't beaten the chess game, not once!).  I thimpfk what I like best about the OS itself is the fact that I can have 16 desktops!

Don't forget, you always have your choice to boot up in 'msux' if you need a program that does not run in Linux--you can freely switch back and forth simply by shutting down and booting back up.  Linux does a far better job at "compartmentalizing" than the other guy--It uses hard drive memory for program information when the program gets too large for internal memory and does a far better job of this than msux.  Just for your information, for us old coots, one of the things that keeps us alive . . . (drum roll) . . . is doing new things that have a learning curve!


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard. Thanks for advice. I have now installed the Linux stuff. It all works from a pen drive - so the fan hardly runs  to keep the hard drive and processor cool. Much quieter!
I'll carry on learning....
Maybe my printer will work now?
Ken


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard. Thanks for advice. I have now installed the Linux stuff. It all works from a pen drive - so the fan hardly runs  to keep the hard drive and processor cool. Much quieter!
> I'll carry on learning....
> Maybe my printer will work now?
> Ken


Whoa!  That's good!  Can't say if your printer will work, maybe the printer is ded.  But goo luck on that.  So you have any trouble booting?  What version of Linux do you have?  Did you notice that you can access msux' drives?  You can reach all that.  If you have an msux OS, you CANNOT reach the Linux drives!  How do you like your desktop?  You have many options on that, some COMPLETELY different--not in style, but in substance.


----------



## Steamchick

*I'll  study tomorrow. Now relaxing with the missus.
cheers,
Ken*


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> 16 desktops -- - - - I've got 20 and still don't have enough room.
> Trying to have a desktop dedicated to each kind of function.
> One major issue - - - - CAD - - - they now call modelling CAD but I need to be able to do something where I can also put all the technical details into the 'drawing' and FreeCAD just doesn't believe in being practical. So far I've been using LibreCAD using mathematics to draw from point to point. FreeCAD works but I don't just model stuff I make it and that mostly doesn't seem to be what the 'coders' are doing.
> These problems might just be me but this software seems to be designed to be a pain to use and then there is only ONE way to do most things. (Like specifying things only counter clock-wise IIRC.)
> Oh well I'll stop - - - - not really contributing anything useful re: CAD.
> Besides CAD where M$ has the market sewn up real tight there isn't much that you can't do in *nix land.
> I've been running various iterations for somewhat over 20 years.
> HTH


You might wish to look into who the coders are for Linux CADs.  I don't know who they are, but I thimpfk they might not know anything about drafting.  I have used some of their stuff but it is very inferior.  If you could find out who is doing the coding you also might give us a heads-up and we could send them a few $$.  It is always a help, as these people who are doing the coding get very little for it.  They usually hold day jobs.  Also, you and we might try to tell them what we need.  The way AutoDesk has developed their AutoCAD is by creating a drawing program 40 years ago and constantly adding to it.  They tried to make AutoCAD into a Mechanical Desktop but it was a great failure.  I know because I had to teach it and the students and I all knew it was crap in 2001.  The other 3D programs started their stuff from the ground up and, frankly, they are far easier to use than 2D CAD.  If you can find the coders, I would be glad to send them a few $$ myself--and that is a rarity.  I do it because when it comes out it will be Open Source, that is, free.  But like taxes, I am willing to pay some just not like msux, AutoDesk and others want.  (In economics, it is well known: Drop the price, sell more, make MORE $$)


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> *I'll  study tomorrow. Now relaxing with the missus.
> cheers,
> Ken*


OK, Ken, vacation's over, time to get back to serious PLAY.  I was wondering if you lookt at the 4V rotary steam valve engine on ppgs 35-36 of the "Experimental Flash Steam" book, drawing by Westbury?  I'm thimpfking of trying to find more developed drawings for this.  Do you know anything about it?  How about the rest of the book?  I find it ferree eentaeresteenk.  (cigarette held German style in the web of two middle fingers. Puff puff.)

OH, PS.  How is the Linux?


----------



## jmille7916

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard - I have just looked at the label - it says Dell! SO not HP after all. I have a LINUX stick I bought to plug-in to my 2004 Dell, but it was actually just 1 generation too old for the Linux OP system to take over. I do not have any problems with the current 2008 Dell, but would I see some benefit from using the Linux system on that one? - I just don't know what difference I will see to appreciate applying it... Will my McAffee security throw a fit? Ignore it? Or just get on with life and continue to work? - Not knowing - and it currently isn't broken - I have no motivation to change - except your praise for it. Will any of my current files translate and work in Linux? - e.g. my office package (I save as docs etc. so they can translate and send to systems like this website) , or family tree GED files? My biggest bugbear in life is having to change some systems when Miseryshaft change generation and all my old stuff (including printers, scanners and purchased software like "treeware") fails with the "new" windows - with bars on and shutters down! I have old cartridges for my perfectly good printer that I can't use! - What's the sense for anyone to support that sort of system! I suppose it it is like changing from selling lathe tools to changing system so people buy a new lathe every 5 years! - And I'm too old to want this "new world"  of change. (I'll be dead before they ban IC engines - I hope!). George Orwell was more right then even he expected. Big Brother rules! - especially with COVID around. (Though I believe in Quarantine for controlling the spread of disease - unlike most who seem to find it doesn't apply the them!).
> Nuff said.
> K2


My laptop runs Windows 10 pro, but I have a dual boot so that I can boot into 


Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard - I have just looked at the label - it says Dell! SO not HP after all. I have a LINUX stick I bought to plug-in to my 2004 Dell, but it was actually just 1 generation too old for the Linux OP system to take over. I do not have any problems with the current 2008 Dell, but would I see some benefit from using the Linux system on that one? - I just don't know what difference I will see to appreciate applying it... Will my McAffee security throw a fit? Ignore it? Or just get on with life and continue to work? - Not knowing - and it currently isn't broken - I have no motivation to change - except your praise for it. Will any of my current files translate and work in Linux? - e.g. my office package (I save as docs etc. so they can translate and send to systems like this website) , or family tree GED files? My biggest bugbear in life is having to change some systems when Miseryshaft change generation and all my old stuff (including printers, scanners and purchased software like "treeware") fails with the "new" windows - with bars on and shutters down! I have old cartridges for my perfectly good printer that I can't use! - What's the sense for anyone to support that sort of system! I suppose it it is like changing from selling lathe tools to changing system so people buy a new lathe every 5 years! - And I'm too old to want this "new world"  of change. (I'll be dead before they ban IC engines - I hope!). George Orwell was more right then even he expected. Big Brother rules! - especially with COVID around. (Though I believe in Quarantine for controlling the spread of disease - unlike most who seem to find it doesn't apply the them!).
> Nuff said.
> K2


my laptop runs Windows 10 pro, but I have a dual boot so I can also boot into Ubuntu (linux) and run open source stuff.   Originally this laptop was a chinese HP machine, but all characters and icons were in Chinese, and I couldn’t read anything so there was no way to change languages.  Installed the new OS and then the dual boot, so now I really like this custom setup.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, I left the computer "ON" overnight so I wouldn't have to waste time re-starting Linux - 'till I get used to the thing... I tried to set the keyboard to UK settings - but the @ button is showing " and vica-versa.. not sure what other foibles I'll find...
Somehow, I have managed to log-in to Google - for email - and this website, but as it all runs from the stick I bought for another PC, and puts all the files onto the stick, it doesn't read the hard drive where all my files are.
I guess I must first work-out how to get a browser... then how to access my hard-drive...
Firefox is supposed to be installed - and maybe Google Chrome? - But Firefox didn't seem to work immediately, and I don't think Chrome has installed yet?
The printer folder is there but doesn't start-up - yet. So I'll have a play with that in due course.
But I can talk to you!
I call that success!
Ken


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, I left the computer "ON" overnight so I wouldn't have to waste time re-starting Linux - 'till I get used to the thing... I tried to set the keyboard to UK settings - but the @ button is showing " and vica-versa.. not sure what other foibles I'll find...
> Somehow, I have managed to log-in to Google - for email - and this website, but as it all runs from the stick I bought for another PC, and puts all the files onto the stick, it doesn't read the hard drive where all my files are.
> I guess I must first work-out how to get a browser... then how to access my hard-drive...
> Firefox is supposed to be installed - and maybe Google Chrome? - But Firefox didn't seem to work immediately, and I don't think Chrome has installed yet?
> The printer folder is there but doesn't start-up - yet. So I'll have a play with that in due course.
> But I can talk to you!
> I call that success!
> Ken


Yes, it is not msux, it operates differntly and you  will need to read a bit to access all you files and stuff.  it's a but intimidating at first but later you will get to navigate better.


----------



## Steamchick

I tried a rasberry pie once - but it seemed so limited and backward, I felt I was back in 1988 when we first got PCs at work (One between 20 engineers!). As I had 60+ hours work each week - and others had much less - they became PC literate and I fell behind... So maybe now I'll start to learn again - from scratch? - If it holds my interest long enough.
Thanks for support.
Ken


----------



## Steamchick

I'll have to try and get Linux onto my hard-drive - so I can use existing files. I can't seem to find a "file explorer" in Linux on my remote stick. I can't set-up the printer - for a lack of driver! - Linux won't read the printer's CD that is supposed to have Linux drivers included. So back to the hard-drive EmSox stuff for now.
K2


----------



## Steamchick

What is a dual boot? - And how do you set up the dual boot?
Ken


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> You might wish to look into who the coders are for Linux CADs.  I don't know who they are, but I thimpfk they might not know anything about drafting.  I have used some of their stuff but it is very inferior.  If you could find out who is doing the coding you also might give us a heads-up and we could send them a few $$.  It is always a help, as these people who are doing the coding get very little for it.  They usually hold day jobs.  Also, you and we might try to tell them what we need.  The way AutoDesk has developed their AutoCAD is by creating a drawing program 40 years ago and constantly adding to it.  They tried to make AutoCAD into a Mechanical Desktop but it was a great failure.  I know because I had to teach it and the students and I all knew it was crap in 2001.  The other 3D programs started their stuff from the ground up and, frankly, they are far easier to use than 2D CAD.  If you can find the coders, I would be glad to send them a few $$ myself--and that is a rarity.  I do it because when it comes out it will be Open Source, that is, free.  But like taxes, I am willing to pay some just not like msux, AutoDesk and others want.  (In economics, it is well known: Drop the price, sell more, make MORE $$)



I'm a wondering about starting a new thread re: CAD on linux (and all the related whatevers). 
Went looking and there doesn't seem to be a really good place to 'park' it.
Suggestions as to where would be gratefully acknowledged!!!


----------



## Steamchick

Can't   suggest anywhere yet. I have given up on it!
Ken


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> I'm a wondering about starting a new thread re: CAD on linux (and all the related whatevers).
> Went looking and there doesn't seem to be a really good place to 'park' it.
> Suggestions as to where would be gratefully acknowledged!!!


Previously we have had some discussions on Linux but I'm not sure abut Linux CADs.  My experience with L CADs is that they; are pretty crappy and undeveloped.  Wish they were better, I'd go over to them.  Well, where to put it (sorting hat thimpfks).  Why not see if there is enough interest.  If there is interest, start a new thread.  If not just try any thread that seems amenable to it.  This particular thread explicityly states that you may say anything, something or nothing to everyone, someone or no-one (but be careful what you say, some ding-head might object for reasons unknown.)


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> What is a dual boot? - And how do you set up the dual boot?
> Ken


Dual boot is simply that you have two choices to boot up from:  msux OR Linux as operating system.  You can actually have MORE than two but there are only a few other obscure operating systems available now:  IBM, Sun and one other that I can thimpfk of.  I read that Linux users who refer to different brands of Linux as 'distros' ( I thimpfk it has to do with the word 'distribution' but not sure), like Ubuntu, Red Hat, Suse and a bundle of others, have a difficult time installing more than one Linux OS at a time, as they seem to fight each other and not recognize each other as different OS's.  Maybe that has been resolved.  I know a few people wish to test out the different distros for fun or for important reasons but the only way they can do that is by installing and uninstalling repeatedly.  THAT gets tiresome just to test out the distro.  I thimk I would try to have a couple old beater computers to make the installations on.  

I don't know the circumstances of your thumb drive (we call them thumb drives) boot up system, usually, it is best to get the original discs in order for the installation to explore and check out the system being installed on so that it can properly configure the system, that is, drivers to various things.  You do know?  that you can go on line and download the free distros which will install it on your system?  I've done that with Suse, but oddly, I preferred my previous version of Suse 9.2.  Some times companys (especially msux) makes changes in order for the distro to LOOK different and so becomes irritating in that things are in different places but still do the same thing.  This leads to BLOAT--unnecessarily large OS that doesn't do anything except spy on you.  ( hope you cover your camera when not in use--not a joke!)  As an interesting point, check out the size of msux OS and Linux OS--you find a HUGE difference, yet msux is virus vulnerable and Linux is not.  Why is that?

I have LOTs more to say but in fear of boring you to death, I am going outside to light up a cig while filling my propane and gas tanks.  Hope to see y'all in heaven or hell.  Oh, yeah, and to make that morning cup'o JAVA!


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I tried a rasberry pie once - but it seemed so limited and backward, I felt I was back in 1988 when we first got PCs at work (One between 20 engineers!). As I had 60+ hours work each week - and others had much less - they became PC literate and I fell behind... So maybe now I'll start to learn again - from scratch? - If it holds my interest long enough.
> Thanks for support.
> Ken


Har har, that's funni.  I got my first computer in 1978--a Radio Shack Tandy TRS-80.  It was a lot of fun, and actually, a serious computer once one got the upgrade and all the peripherals.  But in 1988 I bought my second computer, an Amiga, which, I believe is the best computer ever made up to 1995 approx.  Yes, computers really cut down on the amount of time to do a job, no doubt about it.  But then, the boss just piles on more work with less people so people are out of jobs and those who are left still do the 60.  Cig and coffee time for me.


----------



## Steamchick

Computers save time? - Yes, in some ways, but the Time taken to knock-out a few hundred Inspection documents (1 set per vehicle launch) by pencil, paper, photocopy and hard graft was about 6 weeks for 6 people. But 20 years on with it all "computerised" it took - well, about 6 people 6 weeks... But the distribution took the instant of a computer, instead of 1 day of admin girl photo-copying, etc.... Maybe it's because that's how long it took for the thinking, research, etc. and the computer "time savings" were an insignificant part of it all? Users reckoned it was "easier" - but the later guys didn't have the expertise of the older guys in sketching, drawing, documenting, etc. whereas they had better skills in CAD - sectioning, dimensioning, etc. And we din't have to waste time chatting to the drawing store and print-room girls.... or whatever!
K


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Computers save time? - Yes, in some ways, but the Time taken to knock-out a few hundred Inspection documents (1 set per vehicle launch) by pencil, paper, photocopy and hard graft was about 6 weeks for 6 people. But 20 years on with it all "computerised" it took - well, about 6 people 6 weeks... But the distribution took the instant of a computer, instead of 1 day of admin girl photo-copying, etc.... Maybe it's because that's how long it took for the thinking, research, etc. and the computer "time savings" were an insignificant part of it all? Users reckoned it was "easier" - but the later guys didn't have the expertise of the older guys in sketching, drawing, documenting, etc. whereas they had better skills in CAD - sectioning, dimensioning, etc. And we din't have to waste time chatting to the drawing store and print-room girls.... or whatever!
> K


That's only ONE instance of how computers did NOT actually save time and also, importantly, DID NOT put someone out of a job.  So far, computers do not thimpfk, and humans are needed (thimpfking is "comparing" different visualizations, smells, tastes, feelings or sounds, or just sensations which computers can't do--at this time).  The real heartbreaker about this is exactly as you said: you no longer have the time for a chat at the water bucket nor to flirt with the secretaries.  But you are correct, in this instance, computers cannot check those documents.  Someday they WILL!  In the corn harvest, I was talking with a lady about our harvesting jobs.  I claimed that we will be out of a job in less than 20 years because the machines will all be computerized and will not need us--a mechanic to fix them when they breaK (but even that will eventually be robotized)--She argued vehemently that it will not happen.  I didn't laugh.  She failed to recognize that GPS is already installed in the machines and can harvest and plant in a straight line, recording those lines and some machines even have automatic adjustments in picking attachments to go down the rows properly!  20 years?  probably 10.

HOwever, for MOST things, computers do speed things up immensely.


----------



## reichpaul630

ajoeiam said:


> I'm a wondering about starting a new thread re: CAD on linux (and all the related whatevers).
> Went looking and there doesn't seem to be a really good place to 'park' it.
> Suggestions as to where would be gratefully acknowledged!!!



i'd second starting a new thread specific to linux CAD. i've been using linux in various flavors since 1993. it's come a long way, baby  
having an "alternative platform" that can run open-source (free) CAD/CAM software would be quite useful...

paulr


----------



## Steamchick

Too true... 1950s and 60s science fiction writers didn't predict half of it! Progress accelerates progress...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

reichpaul630 said:


> i'd second starting a new thread specific to linux CAD. i've been using linux in various flavors since 1993. it's come a long way, baby
> having an "alternative platform" that can run open-source (free) CAD/CAM software would be quite useful...
> 
> paulr


/
That's good.  I like Linux a lot more than msux, so yes, I thimpfk a separate thread would be fine as long there is interest, which I thimpfk there is.  I will be a reader and contributor.


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Too true... 1950s and 60s science fiction writers didn't predict half of it! Progress accelerates progress...
> K2


I was just watching a vid where the narator was talking about a certain book predicting almost exactly what is happeing today:  stand on zanzibar-- I couldn't find if for sale but I did find in on a free book download site.  Stand on Zanzibar | John Brunner | download


----------



## Steamchick

Just finished Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath". Similar pressure all over Africa and Europe with migrants coming North in their thousands. - They don't care how they put pressure on the fragile economies that they move to, because the pressure to escape where they are is so great. We've already had a few decades of Eastern migrants moving west. "Times they are a'changing"? - Big trouble ahead I'm afraid.
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Wrong - it was "Grapes of Wrath"! - The one about migrant workers and poverty. - Not a pretty story.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Wrong - it was "Grapes of Wrath"! - The one about migrant workers and poverty. - Not a pretty story.
> K2


I read it along with a lot of other Steinbeck stuff.


----------



## Richard Hed

Hey guys, have you seen Jeremy Fielding's vids?  You might be interested in his utub stuff.  I am watching his vid on treadmill scrapping.  I got a treadmill motor, but failed to know tha tI should have gotten the electronics too.


----------



## Steamchick

Richard Hed said:


> I read somewhere that during WWI someone had tried to use steam powered cannons.  Apparently they worked very well but something went wrong.  It might have been that it rusted the barrels but I'm not sure what happened.  Of course, the cannons needed one heck of a steam generator which would not have been mobile.  On ships they might have worked well because their mobility would have been on the ship itself, and thus not really a necessity to be mobile.  Has anyone else ever heard of this?  I'm very curious as *steam pressure can move mountains*.


Hi Richard, just re-reading this (It's all repeats on the TV so I thought I'd enjoy a few of these repeats!).
I hadn't realised how true your words are about steam moving mountains, until I remembered Mount St. Helens in Washington (State), Eckyafettle (can't spell it, or pronounce it!) in Iceland and other volcanoes. The steam is created by glaciers, ice-caps or lakes collapsing into a large lake of molten magma, or a mountain of very hot rock, and flashing to steam.... the ensuing steam pressure blowing the top half of mountains many miles! - Literally Steam does move mountains!
Maybe Volcanoes are the ulyimate demonstration that not all "flash steamers" are safe?
Makes one think that the "old faithful" geyser in Jellystone park is the boiler safety valve venting a bit of heat?
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

I'll need to spend time with Jeremy Fielding - fell asleep at the first attempt! I wasn't sure what you were talking of with "tread-mill" motors, then realised you were talking of motors salvaged from scrap exercise machines. Not realising these were cheap and readily available, I bought a 200W motor with controller from an exercise machine shop for 1/4 of the price of a 200W motor on [email protected] They claimed they had bought 200 motors and controllers when they started the shop selling exercise machines, but had never supplied a replacement motor or controller in 5 years so the accountants told them to liquidise the stock of spares quickly - hence VERY cheap.
I just don't have a project for it as I used a smaller brush motor and V-Speed controller (£3) to re-motor my Unimat SL... (Cost £5 for the nice plastic box to fit all the switches, knobs and pretty lights in!).
But maybe one day I'll find a use for it?
The real problem motor I have is an undersized motor for a compressor. Originally it had a 3HP motor, pressure switches and contactor, but I haven't got anything near that big - or torquey! The scrap copper value means the scrapyards don't have motors either.
No worries, I have a little compressor for most of my needs.
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Richard, You mentioned a Westbury Vee-four steam engine with rotary valve.. I agree- it looks like a worthwhile project for a fast powerful steamer! - Not found anything on browsing the Weally Whinsome Web of deceit and disinformation.
I have a SUN engine by Stuart the Turner.. That will run (reputedly) on steam at 2000rpm, but I have never found a NWP for the engine... Wonder if anyone knows? I'm guessing 80psi? 
I am aware that the larger Sirius engine was sent to France as a small generator for charging radio batteries in WW2 ... supposedly with a boiler that only had a NWP with 30psi (like a domestic pressure cooker, that could double as a container for all the gubbins and look like a pressure cooker sitting on a kitchen shelf. You could even use it to cook your spuds!) - but I have never ratified that pressure.
I once saw (at a show) a 3 cylinder single acting steam engine with overhead rotary valve - running on air at a few thousand rpm. Very smooth, and the owner said it would run all day without wearing out! - I wonder? - it was humming!
Just found a curious single compound engine... much like the British Navy's shortened steam engines with the con-rod inside a sleeve piston.
http://www.packratworkshop.com/pdf/single_cylinder_compound.pdf
Could this principle be used with different valve timing and porting to make a 2-stroke infernal combustion engine? - Maybe with glow plug ignition? Using the H.P. cylinder as an intake and pump to charge the "L.P." cylinder for firing the mixture? - Now that may be something interesting to design perhaps?
Where's that pencil sharpener?...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, just re-reading this (It's all repeats on the TV so I thought I'd enjoy a few of these repeats!).
> I hadn't realised how true your words are about steam moving mountains, until I remembered Mount St. Helens in Washington (State), Eckyafettle (can't spell it, or pronounce it!) in Iceland and other volcanoes. The steam is created by glaciers, ice-caps or lakes collapsing into a large lake of molten magma, or a mountain of very hot rock, and flashing to steam.... the ensuing steam pressure blowing the top half of mountains many miles! - Literally Steam does move mountains!
> Maybe Volcanoes are the ulyimate demonstration that not all "flash steamers" are safe?
> Makes one think that the "old faithful" geyser in Jellystone park is the boiler safety valve venting a bit of heat?
> Cheers!
> K2


When I was a kid (last week) I lived 22 miles on the winding road to Mt. ST. Helens.  Went to school at Toutle Lake High School.  Didn't ever suspect it would blow.  One of the things that is being kept secret is Geo Thermal power.  Geo Thermal power plants are failing in California, I bought their stock, now worthless.  The reason is $$$$$$$$$$.  The nukes are very costly to make therefore, those are the ones industry want to make!  Washington State was a center the puppet masters wished to milk blue in the 70s and 80s while the people of the state did not want it.  (Here's a question with great validity:  Why would a state that has the most hydro-power in N. America want those nukes? or need them?   -- The people of the state didn't want them nor need them!)  Nukes cost on the area of 100 billion $ in todays $$ but a Geo plant cost something on the order of 50-100 MILLION in today's $$.  The Geo is easy to build:  drill a hole till you reach 3-400deg.  Put a pipe in to keep the place stable, feed water into the hole, reap the power from the steam.  Very simple, not the least bit danagerous!  The very cheap cost is the very reason there is a campaign to silence GeoThermal power.  I notice the puppet masters keep carefully testing the waters to see if it is feasible to start new nukes.  I'm sure they are doing what they can to sabotage Geo and the power grid in order to start new nukes.  BTW, a nuke that costs 100B$, in reality would only cost3-5B$ if it weren't for cost "over-runs", out right cheating and theiving.  You see, they use this bidding method called "cost plus"  which translates into the contractor gets the "cost" of the building PLUS 15% guaranteed!  So, it's simple, they drive up the cost by paying the highest price they can for supplies and labor, they have work slow-downs to drag out the time, thus labor costs.  Frankly, the system is rotten.  Do away with the cost-plus system and you'll lower the cost to 10% of what it is now.


----------



## Steamchick

Funny - You make sense. So maybe that is why you are not a politician? - Wish you were - I would vote you President! But there are a few draw-backs, I'm not an American, you are not old and senile, nor crazy, and you would not support he policies that encourage the "thieves" of industry to exploit Government (I. E. law-abiding tax payers') money.
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Funny - You make sense. So maybe that is why you are not a politician? - Wish you were - I would vote you President! But there are a few draw-backs, I'm not an American, you are not old and senile, nor crazy, and you would not support he policies that encourage the "thieves" of industry to exploit Government (I. E. law-abiding tax payers') money.
> Cheers!
> K2


Did you know that Kennedy was already printing US notes?  That is, US dollars on paper?  You understand that the fiat money we have now is not US notes--it is Federal Reserve notes, a private bank made to sound official!!  That is why Kennedy was killed, he threatened to take back the USA's constitutional requirement to be the offficial money printer which would knock the Fed on it's arse!  We're talking about trillions of $$ here--for that kind of $$, who couldn't afford to hire the thugs to commit a coup-de-estat?
Read this book:  Kill Zone.  It will tell you EXACTLY who paid for the coup, who coordinated it and who pulled the many triggers.  Frankly, I'm surprized to see the author of this book has not ended up in a ditch.

And thanx for the compliments, however, I would never have a chance to be a politician, I would die mysteriously of suicide with foru or five shots in the back of the head and a bundle of stabwounds and/or deadly poisons and mysterious cancer caused by bacteria from S.E. Asia.  That is the type of cancer that Jack Ruby, Martha Mitchell (wife of John), and many other sensitive persons died from.  Curious, no?


----------



## Steamchick

I thought that since the 18th century, old politicians die of dementure, young ones die from lead poisoning (from guns). In the UK and parts of Europe, the politicians are all young - as they are too naive to know the risks. But in the USA, Presidents are so old they have already enjoyed their best years, so if they die or are arse-ass-kinated they are not a loss.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I thought that since the 18th century, old politicians die of dementure, young ones die from lead poisoning (from guns). In the UK and parts of Europe, the politicians are all young - as they are too naive to know the risks. But in the USA, Presidents are so old they have already enjoyed their best years, so if they die or are arse-ass-kinated they are not a loss.
> K2


Yes, Lead Poinsoning, the exact term  I use.  But this is "self-inflicted", obviously suicide from the back!  Did you know the single most dangerous person alive is in your country?  Baron  . . . .   Is it a wonder that the EU does not have an elected prime minister/president or what ever it is called?  It's because the international banksters want complete control for THEIR one world government.  Even Revelations has a mention of these devils.


----------



## Richard Hed

Hey Guys,
Anybody know anything about making the pins for any of the "D1" series chucks?  I am going to make my own plates for a D1-5 for an ER chuck, or maybe two.  But the only difficulty I foresee is the pins.  It isn't that I can't make them on a lathe, challenging but I can.  The thing I doesn't know is that the pins look like a special metal that has been hardened and ground.  I can forego the grinding but the hardening might present a problem.  I'm not even sure it would be necessary to harden them.


----------



## ShopShoe

You could buy them:





__





						Bison
					






					www.bison-america.com
				




--ShopShoe


----------



## Richard Hed

ShopShoe said:


> You could buy them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bison-america.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --ShopShoe


Way too exspensive


----------



## goldstar31

Richard Hed said:


> Way too exspensive


Basically, they are cotter pins on push bikes!

There are dozens( well almost)    as psrt of the ball handles on the Quorn tool and cutter grinder and things like Geo Thomas's  Universal Pillar Tool and his small dividing head. In these applications they are left soft so as not to damage mating metal bars etc.

They CAN be made cheaply from ground steel mrod known as 'silver steel' which is a higher carbon steel.

No great thing
- sorry-- had then on my little three wheeler bike. Basic stuff for apprebntices


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> Can't   suggest anywhere yet. I have given up on it!
> Ken



Hi Ken,

I use Q4OS,  try this link and download the live CD image.  It runs entirely from the CD, I believe that you can also run it from a USB key/thumb drive.

Just note, you will not be able to access the CD drive from either, so you won't be able to read the printer drivers disk.  However you will be able to access the "Package Manager" and get your printer working that way. Also Konqueror is your file manager and if you want to use it a web browser, though I never use it for web browsing, much preferring Firefox.

HTH.


----------



## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> Previously we have had some discussions on Linux but I'm not sure abut Linux CADs.  My experience with L CADs is that they; are pretty crappy and undeveloped.  Wish they were better, I'd go over to them.  Well, where to put it (sorting hat thimpfks).  Why not see if there is enough interest.  If there is interest, start a new thread.  If not just try any thread that seems amenable to it.  This particular thread explicityly states that you may say anything, something or nothing to everyone, someone or no-one (but be careful what you say, some ding-head might object for reasons unknown.)



Hi Richard,

I run and use 

<QCAD - Downloads>

Don't be put off by the word "Trial"  !  It runs as the full program for 15 minutes, but it doesn't shut down or watermark your work.  If you need a feature that has ceased, just save your work and restart the program.  I use mine a lot and bought a license last year, I've not renewed yet simply because I know that I will be able to continue using it forever !  How ever when you do decide you want the latest version you will get a discount.


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Ken,
> 
> I use Q4OS,  try this link and download the live CD image.  It runs entirely from the CD, I believe that you can also run it from a USB key/thumb drive.
> 
> Just note, you will not be able to access the CD drive from either, so you won't be able to read the printer drivers disk.  However you will be able to access the "Package Manager" and get your printer working that way. Also Konqueror is your file manager and if you want to use it a web browser, though I never use it for web browsing, much preferring Firefox.
> 
> HTH.


I've never used a Debian based platform.  30 years ago I tried Red Hat and some others, but I liked Suse best.  I'll try this Q4OS.  Any suggestions?


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Baron, I'll see what I do - when I get around to it! Some Rugby (League) to watch today - so some beer will be drunk! -And tomorrow... Pre-season friendlies... not that Rugby players seem to be friendly during a match! - Have to pay for the stream though - but as we can't get to live games we do... because it is "THE GAME!"
But raining hard, so maybe a bit of computer time (mail) this morning? - then maybe I'll look at the design of a ceramic burner - doing the calcs for a half-hour or so. - Just to decide size of jet, air-hole, length of mixer tube, internal baffles/porting, etc. nothing I can do on a computer, just pencil and paper... - Love it!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Richard, back to the single cylinder compound sleeve piston ...
Years ago I had a book on various engine designs (1920s edition) from my grandfather - contained a 180 degree twin 2-stroke with a "double piston" - cylinder arrangement on each con-rod. The top piston was a conventional 2-stroke ported cylinder, but the lower half was a pre-cylinder (actually just an annulus) in place of using the crankcase for induction and pumping to the combustion chamber. Hence the 180 degree twin - so one side could pump into the other. This meant a wet-sump (crank lubrication) was possible (the only advantage?) - and could be a twin, straight or vee-four, boxer, etc. configuration.
BUT: using a sleeve piston arrangement, the top cylinder could be induction and pumping to the lower annulus for combustion... maybe...? But probably a thermal disaster? - Where is that drawing board?
Sorry, this is a deviation from "Flash Steam" - but the multiple compound was an idea I was thinking of relating to the high heat and high pressure normal in Flash Steam,,, - thinking that compounds were more efficient for using all the steam power? - Then got to thinking that the real reason Flash Steam didn't become widespread was the infernal combustion engine - money and development thereof - exceeded the convenience of even Flash Steam.....
K2


----------



## Steamchick

AAARGHHH!!! Q40S told me "something was missing" so it "couldn't open or install," or do anything.... It completely stopped the computer during start-up.... but after a few minutes of nonplussed confusion in my brain, I switched OFF and ON again.... at which point it offered me Q40S or Windows... so I am on Windows still until you can advise... Should I risk Q40S with the option at start-up?
Worried...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Sorry, this is a deviation from "Flash Steam"


'Read the first paragraph of the OP's first original statement.  I don't thimpfk you can deviate.  Is it possible to make a drawing?  I don't get what you are ttrying to say.

You can probably start it in Q4, but I am not sure, as I have not tried it yet.


----------



## BaronJ

Steamchick said:


> AAARGHHH!!! Q40S told me "something was missing" so it "couldn't open or install," or do anything.... It completely stopped the computer during start-up.... but after a few minutes of nonplussed confusion in my brain, I switched OFF and ON again.... at which point it offered me Q40S or Windows... so I am on Windows still until you can advise... Should I risk Q40S with the option at start-up?
> Worried...
> K2



If you downloaded the ISO live CD you have to burn it to a disc or USB key, then you boot your computer from the CD or USB drive.
If you use a USB stick you still cannot use your CD drive.

Everything will run from the CD without having to do anything else, it is only after you have installed it to your HDD that you can start to add applications and save stuff.

You may have to tell your machine to boot from the CD, my machine does that automatically, so if I have a bootable medium in the drive it automatically boots that instead of the HDD.


----------



## BaronJ

BaronJ said:


> Hi Ken,
> 
> I use Q4OS,  try this link and download the live CD image.  It runs entirely from the CD, I believe that you can also run it from a USB key/thumb drive.
> 
> Just note, you will not be able to access the CD drive from either, so you won't be able to read the printer drivers disk.  However you will be able to access the "Package Manager" and get your printer working that way. Also Konqueror is your file manager and if you want to use it a web browser, though I never use it for web browsing, much preferring Firefox.
> 
> HTH.



Hi Ken, Guys,

Curious how the link that I posted has disappeared from my post !

Anyway here it is again for the benefit of those perusing this thread

Q4OS - desktop operating system

And this is the version that I use

Q4OS Centaurus, Trinity, live - 64bit / x64 ... 719 MBytes

The information file is at the end of this line.

I will start a new thread "Linux" Q4OS.

Thanks Guys.


----------



## BaronJ

Richard Hed said:


> I've never used a Debian based platform.  30 years ago I tried Red Hat and some others, but I liked Suse best.  I'll try this Q4OS.  Any suggestions?



Hi Richard,

I've started a new Thread entitled "Linux Q4OS".
It seems that my link has disappeared from my post in Post 80.

I used to like and use SuSe but when Kde4 was introduced things went downhill, and when Kde5 came out that was the end of the line. I moved to supporting "Trinity" !  Since then it has gone from strength to strength.


----------



## Richard Hed

I have a problem that maybe someone can give me some advice on:

I am making some plates for an ER-40 & 50 for a D1-5 spindle nose.  This has six pins.  The original pins have M12-10 threads and I was going to make them the same for interchangability, however, I realized I don't need to do that.  The tooling, that is, M12-10 taps (don't need dies, as I can cut the trheads) are very hard to get for a reasonable price.  I realized that I can make 7/16-20 which are a small amount smaller than the M12s.  It doesn't matter because the M12s are for regular chucks which will have larger pieces in them but the ERs will have much smaller pieces in them so 7/16ths are plenty adequate.  So, my problem is that the pins have a halfmoon cut in them and holding the pin in such a manner as to scoop the half moons out is a problem since I have no mill.  I could put them in a 4 jaw with one jaw removed or probably better, I could put it on the plate.  I would have to make some special tie down holders for that but it's possible.  A third option, and not one I relish would be to make a cutter on a center mandrel and cut the moons that way.  I thimk the best option is the plate.

Any ideas?

Here is a rough drawing of the pin (and disk)


----------



## Steamchick

Richard Hed said:


> I have a problem that maybe someone can give me some advice on:
> 
> I am making some plates for an ER-40 & 50 for a D1-5 spindle nose.  This has six pins.   - _*(I have no idea what this is describing but the drawing of pins and plate helps.)*_ So, my problem is that the pins have a halfmoon cut in them and holding the pin in such a manner as to scoop the half moons out is a problem since I have no mill.  I could put them in a 4 jaw with one jaw removed or probably better, I could put it on the plate.  I would have to make some special tie down holders for that but it's possible.  A third option, and not one I relish would be to make a cutter on a centre mandrel and cut the moons that way.  I think the best option is the plate. _*(The fly-cutter is the way I would go... K2).*_
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Here is a rough drawing of the pin (and disk)


Hi Richard,
I would use a half round file, and some marking blue to check against round bar of the correct size for the radius of the half-moon (22.5mm diameter?), plus vernier to check thickness of bar at the thin point. A bit of work, but the skill is developed by all apprentices in their first days.... so perhaps time for you to develop skills if you haven't already got them? (I am sure you have). It is easy to forget the tools that existed before power was added, and that sometimes careful hand-work suits the time and need. 
I have an ancestor called Filer... who was making tools (files) back in the 15th century. I still have some from my grandfather's toolbox - going back possibly to when he was on ships back in the 1900s? But only the sharp ones have been kept, including a nice 1" half-round. Good tools outlast people. Skills can easily be lost if we don't practice them.
However, another way to make the half-moon cut-outs would be to mount the bars in the tool-post - pointing across the axis of the lathe, and using a fly-cutter mounted in the 4 jaw chuck. Progress the work along the main travel slowly to cut the half-moons. The exercise will teach you the use of a fly-cutter - with work-piece mounted on the travel - but that is basically what you say you don't want to do?
I am fairly sure that another method will end in tears: I.E. mount the pins on the plate - mount the plate centrally in the chuck, Bore the half-moons carefully while the pins bend and/or break-off and fly everywhere! - Then decide that wasn't the best way to do it. Unless you are very careful and the pins and plate "robust"? Then you can prove you are a better machinist than I - No ignore that last comment - I know from your posts you are a much better machinist than I. - Which is why I would use a file...
Anyway, cut the half moons on the uncut bar first, then size from the centre of the moon to your shoulder when turning to size for the thread.
Today I shall sign myself "Luddite" - as this is a machining website, and I am advocating using hand-tools...  (K2)


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Richard, Guys,

Get a piece of steel big enough to drill a hole in for the length of the pin.  Cross drill it with the size of drill to suit the scallop and in the right position for the pin length and width.  Insert the pin then clamp the whole lot in your drilling vise and drill through, carefully !  You need to clamp the pin so that it cannot rotate, which if you make the block a few thou's smaller than the length of the pin and use a bit of cardboard to pack the block, you will be able to produce them production line style.

Easy peasy 





You have already got a drawing for the pin.  Just put it inside a steel block.


----------



## goldstar31

Hi Guys

        The 'scallop' in a cotter pin is essentially cut with  a boring head or a drill.   Holding the 'in' so that it does not rotate normally uses a lip or flange at the other end( the non threaded) end of the pin.   The boroinf_ I will come to that but the holder can be WOOD!
The absence of a  boring bar gravitates us to a the faceplate or the independent 4 jaw chuck which  can create an adjustable movement for 'widening'.  There are numerous variations possible but that will hold a normal lathe tool as an alternative to a properly ground boring tool.
In the absence of a  drilling machine, the faceplate or something suitable  can be attacked to the poppet part of the tailstock. Again, adding a crank avoids losing a tailstock setting.
The Division plate- or absence thereof  suggests a gear wheel will in stipples of 6- in this case o.e. from 6 to 120 for practical purposes. Of course 120 gear will give degrees for grinding or plotting and 3, 6 and 9 degrees will suffice for home ground lathe tools and 60 teerth can be urilised to do American and Metric screwcutting tools. Findi ng Half degrees is a bit triccy but- splitting  3 degreeated and adding, is perfectly feasible.
Digressing, square and rectangular blocks with a hole drilled in  does the classic 90 gegrees et seq whist a bit of hexagon works wonders. Again Propping a 3 jaw chuck with a 'bit of wood. 

Of course it is all a development from the Propositions of Euclid and rarely taight by maths masters. Mine was a facetted gem  who taught me to train like StPaul or Saul to have two jobs. 

So my little bit more is the NINE tools which correctly employed will enable a master builder to create a --------cathedral.   When I am having a good night on the malt, I mentor in such things

Now to put my new wood bandsaw together


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Richard, Guys,
> 
> Get a piece of steel big enough to drill a hole in for the length of the pin.  Cross drill it with the size of drill to suit the scallop and in the right position for the pin length and width.  Insert the pin then clamp the whole lot in your drilling vise and drill through, carefully !  You need to clamp the pin so that it cannot rotate, which if you make the block a few thou's smaller than the length of the pin and use a bit of cardboard to pack the block, you will be able to produce them production line style.
> 
> Easy peasy
> View attachment 123873
> 
> You have already got a drawing for the pin.  Just put it inside a steel block.


My son suggested something like this too.  His suggestion was to make a holder for TWO pins, space them just right then put that in the 4 jaw.  I thimk this, (as you suggest) is what I will look into.

K2, I haven't had my coffee, I can barely read anything people are suggesting.  Worse, I can't even understand each word.  I had to read Baron's post twice before I got what he was saying.  I've already read YOUR post twice and still haven't woken up enough.  However, there is enough that I understand that I need to explain a few details:  It's silversteel (drill rod), 3/4" which I needs to cut out that moon to the depth of about .25".  It has to be smooth and (I thimpfk) quite exact or else it will not clamp well in the D1-5 and for all I know, it may damage the internal clamps of the D1-5 nose.  Altho' I COULD file away at that, there are six pins and I plan to make a few, probably a minimum of three so that I can make two ERs (a 40 and a 50) and have a blank for future needs, which means I will need 18 pins.  I REALLY dread thimpfking about filing away for weeks on that many pins, (Im sure I would quit after the first one).  Your other idea (I've had to read your post 3X, now) of mounting the part in the tool post would only work if the pin was placed in such a manner that the peice was above or below, or the front or the back of the flycutter.  This might be possible with a milling attachment which I do not have set up yet for my larger lathe.  (The smaller one, I thimpfk, is not powerful enough nor ridgid enough to do the work without breaking something.)                                                 

I thimpfk Baron's idea and my son's idea together will have to be the way.  If I make a holder to hold two pieces, (necessarily quadrupling the difficulty of getting each piece correctly placed), with a grub screw at one end to adjust the depth of placement of the parts, I could mass produce them quite easily and also have the pin holder left over to make more later if needed.  Hmmmm, Thanx guys, I'm on to something that might work.  Now to design the holder.  It has to be precisely positioned in two degrees, or one anyway, can adjust with a grub.


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Richard, Guys,

The scallop is not that precision.  A few thou either way won't make a lot of difference.  You can screw it in or out by the TPI of the thread, that is why they use a 1 mm pitch.  Its is more important that all the pins are the same.  Drilling will work just fine, if you want to be pedantic about it use a slot drill.  

Making a jig that allows you to make two at a time will work but then you do have to ensure that neither pin can move in the jig.  Now it gets complicated, making a single pin secure is relatively easy, securing two pins at the same time isn't.

All the jig is doing is guiding the drill, assuming that the jig is set against positive stops.

I think it would be harder to ensure that a 2.5" inch long 3/4" inch diameter hole is square to both faces of the jig at both ends and the same diameter at both ends.  You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen that happen !


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> Hi Richard, Guys,
> 
> The scallop is not that precision.  A few thou either way won't make a lot of difference.  You can screw it in or out by the TPI of the thread, that is why they use a 1 mm pitch.  Its is more important that all the pins are the same.  Drilling will work just fine, if you want to be pedantic about it use a slot drill.
> 
> Making a jig that allows you to make two at a time will work but then you do have to ensure that neither pin can move in the jig.  Now it gets complicated, making a single pin secure is relatively easy, securing two pins at the same time isn't.
> 
> All the jig is doing is guiding the drill, assuming that the jig is set against positive stops.
> 
> I think it would be harder to ensure that a 2.5" inch long 3/4" inch diameter hole is square to both faces of the jig at both ends and the same diameter at both ends.  You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen that happen !


Yes, my son noticed that the moon is NOT an exact arc, that one end of the arc has a bit of extra machining.  I will hav to chek all the other pins to see if they ALL have that bit cut out or if it is just one.  The radius of the circle will be smaller than what I have on the drawing.  ANd yes, the thing is not that precision, Ithimpfk that even MORE than a few thou--the pins are loose and rattly on the chucks so that they will easily fit into the nose.  It's all tightened up when you wrench the D1-5 camlocks.  By the construction, I thimpfk I could have the moon off quite substantially in one direction and correct it by machining, but not in the other direction.  Also, aftr all is over and done, these pins, being drill rod, are supposed to be hardened.  I 'll have to look into just which type of hardening that will have to be according to the type of drill rod.

Thanx for the advice on keeping the two holes parallel, I know this will not be double the "fun" but more likely quadruple the "fun".  Everthing will have to be VERY precise.  On the other hand if two don't work together, I can always use the same fixture and only do one at a time.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, 
I think you have better suggestions than mine. Just indicates what a "Luddite" I really am...
K2


----------



## goldstar31

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard,
> I think you have better suggestions than mine. Just indicates what a "Luddite" I really am...
> K2


No, Ken, you are NOT a Luddite
A Luddite was a employee who was afraid( and was probably right) that his Master would put him out of work by installing  machinery.  Consequently, he attempted to destroy the new fangled things.

So you are probably the despised Good Samataritan  whose aim in lefe is as St Augustus mentioned==

to give and not to ask for any reaward.
So to contimue the theme
Well done thous good and faithful servant----

'For I always knew Thee as an awful taskmaster'

Sun is shing, this is the verminal Equinox-- enjoy.

N


----------



## BaronJ

goldstar31 said:


> No, Ken, you are NOT a Luddite
> A Luddite was a employee who was afraid( and was probably right) that his Master would put him out of work by installing  machinery.  Consequently, he attempted to destroy the new fangled things.
> 
> So you are probably the despised Good Samaritan  whose aim in life is as St Augustus mentioned==
> 
> to give and not to ask for any reward.
> So to continue the theme
> Well done thous good and faithful servant----
> 
> 'For I always knew Thee as an awful taskmaster'
> 
> Sun is shining, this is the vernal Equinox-- enjoy.
> 
> N



I learn something every day, I always thought of a "Luddite" as an unintelligent moron.  Which Ken obviously isn't.


----------



## Richard Hed

BaronJ said:


> I learn something every day, I always thought of a "Luddite" as an unintelligent moron.  Which Ken obviously isn't.


I always get Luddite, Jacobite, and some others mixt up all the time.  I prefer the word "sabbot" which is French for "shoe".


----------



## goldstar31

'Shoes' in French are  chausures whilst  'sabot' is a wooden clog which was used as sabotage  by jamming one in the points to derail trains.

There is still an English expression  about' putting the clog in'
I wore clogs at schoolduring  WW2.


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks guys, your history of language - and many other things - I find fascinating.
My misinterpretation of Luddite was a reference to my preferring the "old stuff" - more generally - as I feel I have a "natural" fear of learning the "new" stuff....
(Ha, Ha! - wrong text for this post!) - re-written now...).
What I meant with my suggestion of "filing" - apart from the obvious:  that if you can achieve the result with a file it may be the quicker and more practical solution... - was really rhetoric - "Is the lathe just made for turning round objects, or can it turn a tool which can machine curves?" - So thinking in reverse, put a tool in the chuck - rotating as would a milling machine - and make some adapter to mount the parts where the toolpost would normally go...
Without knowing your lathe or set-up I can't work it out for you. 
Anyway, I mis-used the phrase "Luddite" - but surely they were advocating the use of "old tools and methods" - even though recognising the labour intensive nature of those tools.
Perhaps I am not looking to develop any particular "machining" process to do lots of things "because it can", but as one of many ways to achieve and end-point  - in this case, make something that is simple, and relatively expensive to buy.
e.g. Recently I gave-up struggling with a set-up for micro-drilling from the tail-stock using a combination of home-made M1 taper and M1 to M2 tapered sleeve. I bought an M2 tapered adapter for the tail-stock chuck so I was using "factory accuracy" instead of "home-made". In 10 to 20 years it will be cost effective against the cost of broken drills and material - but in terms of frustration and speed of making the bits I want to be making it is the better solution.
And sometimes a few hours graft with hand-tools is the right solution compared to spending many hours making lots of tooling "for a one-off".  Not always my choice, I am just saying it is a possible solution. 
So Richard, when you consider various solutions - and eliminate those you do not like or are impractical - you'll find you have the "best" solution with the one you "least reject".
K2


----------



## BaronJ

Hi Ken,

I would not have recommended installing Q4OS as a first attempt, too many gotchas involved.  Using a live CD and booting from that would give you a working system.  MS also has spoilers built in making things difficult.  I also know that there are a number of machines that are quite deliberately programmed so that you have little chance of running any other OS.


----------



## Richard Hed

Well, guys, I can't believe what happened.  I was making a tool to make tools when I discovered I didn't have a wrench, not even an adjustable one to fit the nut.  Lucky for me, I managed to find an old left hand monkey wrench!-Those left hand monkey wrenches are really handy as they open really wide.  I kept the wrench around more as a keep sake from the dark ages--never thot in a bundle of ages that I would ever actually use it.  I had to use my right hand however.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, I guess the left-handed monkeys are 1/4 of the monkey population if normal genetics apply to sinistral beasts? Obviously then they are harder to find than the right-handed critturs. But finding the appropriate LH wrench is great! Must be worth a fortune for the rarity value! I would try and get one for my wife - she is sinistral. But not being a monkey, she wouldn't want it or have much use for it. I would probably end up wearing it sticking out of my skull....
K2


----------



## goldstar31

I've just taken delivery of another bottle of Monkey Shoulder.

Slange va

Norman


----------



## Richard Hed

Anybody know anything about this:  
* Small Herreshoff mill type steam engine*


Here is a link to a triple expansion:  Herreshoff Triple Expansion Steam Engine, 1904 – New England Wireless & Steam Museum

I'm looking for any plans for this.


----------



## Richard Hed

I found this site:






						Steam & Engines – New England Wireless & Steam Museum
					

The New England Wireless and Steam Museum is an electrical and mechanical engineering museum emphasizing the beginnings of radio and steam power.



					newsm.org
				




Has anyone ever seen it before?  It's got lots of goo stuff.


----------



## Richard Hed

Hey guys, Anybody want a turning center?  Bidding starts at 125,000$.


----------



## Richard Hed

I want to scale up some models to about 2-5 HP but I don't want to use ordinary slide valves.  I'm thimpfking Corliss or if anyone knows of any other type of valve that is more efficient than slides, I could use some advice or stories.  I'm even considering double or triple expansion.  Do you thimpfk it is possible to or reasonable to make a triple expansion Corliss?

I welcome any ideas.  I need to look into simplified Corliss as the Coles/Ray Corliss (may be a wonderful machine, however) but is simply too complicated.  I've seen simplified Corliss dwgs, maybe go that way?


----------



## Steamchick

Regular poppet valves - as used in Infernal combustion engines - have a long and well proven history in that application, but I am not sure they lend themselves effectively to steam engines where they close-off the high pressure and superheated steam against lower pressure in the cylinder (e.g. during the exhaust stroke).
Slide valves - in various forms - have been very effective for 200 years of engine development, so what specific issues are you trying to overcome with their limitations?
A friend at the local club has made a Corliss valve engine - but is still trying to get the timing correct - he would tear his hair out if he had enough left! - That's all I know on the subject.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I'll have to try and get Linux onto my hard-drive - so I can use existing files. I can't seem to find a "file explorer" in Linux on my remote stick. I can't set-up the printer - for a lack of driver! - Linux won't read the printer's CD that is supposed to have Linux drivers included. So back to the hard-drive EmSox stuff for now.
> K2


Hey Ken, How are you doing on Linux?  I haven't heard anything about it in a while.  did you find out how to access your files?


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Regular poppet valves - as used in Infernal combustion engines - have a long and well proven history in that application, but I am not sure they lend themselves effectively to steam engines where they close-off the high pressure and superheated steam against lower pressure in the cylinder (e.g. during the exhaust stroke).
> Slide valves - in various forms - have been very effective for 200 years of engine development, so what specific issues are you trying to overcome with their limitations?
> A friend at the local club has made a Corliss valve engine - but is still trying to get the timing correct - he would tear his hair out if he had enough left! - That's all I know on the subject.
> K2


I thimpfk I read something about poppets not working well with steam, but I am not sure about that.  I have always wondered why poppets are not used more with steam.


----------



## Steamchick

Richard Hed said:


> Hey Ken, How are you doing on Linux?  I haven't heard anything about it in a while.  did you find out how to access your files?


Thanks for your care and interest Richard. I finally "gave-up trying".. It seemed to me that something inside the "Windows" part of the computer wasn't allowing me to get Linux onto the hard-drive, nor a secondary drive that I have connected. It was logical to me to try and utilise the existing memory I have, rather than just add a CD-Rom or other memory, that is considerably smaller .... but my "Chicken-brained logic" doesn't work in the computer world. I did manage to fill about 1/3rd of my hard-drive with various LINUX programs I downloaded..., added to the 1/3rd capacity used for Windows, so now only have 1/3rd as spare capacity... (!). So as I really don't know what I am doing I have left it for "another day" - as too many interesting projects were demanding attention. ergo... designs and calculations for boilers, burners, etc., holidays, painting doors, gardening, reading books sitting in the sun (not today - it is winter again!) - and time with "her indoors"...
I am about to re-make an old ceramic burner for a boiler and another new one because the tin can I used a decade ago has rusted on both boilers... Can't get tin cans to last longer than 10 years... but the ceramics turn to dust after 20 years anyway... Maybe I'll use a bit of aluminium, or copper, or stainless steel (Oh! The cost!)? 
And a Spanish guy wants a 35kW burner making for his 5in track  A1 Locomotive when I find a supplier of the nickel-aluminium-chrome alloy knitted wire wool I need... and another guy wants one when I get the first one working and resolve any design tweaks...
So when it gets a bit quieter (??) I'll try again to get set-up with Linux...
Hope you are well?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Thanks for your care and interest Richard. I finally "gave-up trying".. It seemed to me that something inside the "Windows" part of the computer wasn't allowing me to get Linux onto the hard-drive, nor a secondary drive that I have connected. It was logical to me to try and utilise the existing memory I have, rather than just add a CD-Rom or other memory, that is considerably smaller .... but my "Chicken-brained logic" doesn't work in the computer world. I did manage to fill about 1/3rd of my hard-drive with various LINUX programs I downloaded..., added to the 1/3rd capacity used for Windows, so now only have 1/3rd as spare capacity... (!). So as I really don't know what I am doing I have left it for "another day" - as too many interesting projects were demanding attention. ergo... designs and calculations for boilers, burners, etc., holidays, painting doors, gardening, reading books sitting in the sun (not today - it is winter again!) - and time with "her indoors"...
> I am about to re-make an old ceramic burner for a boiler and another new one because the tin can I used a decade ago has rusted on both boilers... Can't get tin cans to last longer than 10 years... but the ceramics turn to dust after 20 years anyway... Maybe I'll use a bit of aluminium, or copper, or stainless steel (Oh! The cost!)?
> And a Spanish guy wants a 35kW burner making for his 5in track  A1 Locomotive when I find a supplier of the nickel-aluminium-chrome alloy knitted wire wool I need... and another guy wants one when I get the first one working and resolve any design tweaks...
> So when it gets a bit quieter (??) I'll try again to get set-up with Linux...
> Hope you are well?
> K2


I'm fine, yes.  But wait, you say someone wants a 35kW burner?  have I read that correctly?  35000Watts?  That's 47 horsepower!  That is QUITE a model!.  

As far as Linux goes, you did "partition" the hard drive right?  That is, you cut it up into at least two parts, right?  Parts in which smux will not be able to recognize the linux portion but the linux portion can and does recognize the smux portion.  If you got that far, then when a SINGLE copy of Linux is put on, it shoulc work.  There is one other thing you need to read about before installing that, however, and that is "how to dual boot" for whatefer system you choose.  Have you read up on that?


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard,
Considering efficiency of steam locos in model sizes, it is something like that for the gas you need to burn to pull people around a track with a 5 inch track large loco. Only a small fraction of that makes steam.... I.E.Maybe 3.5kW? (5H.P.) Which is the sort of size of traction motor for an electric buggy that can do the same. It should handle a 0.7 mm jet with butane, or propane at 20psi. It is similar in size of burner to a reasonable domestic boiler (mine is rated at 30kW.). 
Consider a 1 1/2" bore by 2 " stroke 4-cylinder infernal combustion engine. Compared to the same steam engine as a double acting twin. BMEP is maybe 15 bar for the IC engine? ( Say, double the compression ratio of 7:1?). But the steam loco has 6 bar steam for half a stroke... so average pressure 3.5 bar....? I.E. only 1/4 of the torque.... It runs at perhaps a few hundred rpm as a steam loco, but 10 times that as an infernal combustion engine. So no wonder such a lot of "fuel power" is needed to run a small loco, compared with what the infernal combustion engine can achieve as "power at the wheels". - Even in model sizes.... And the steam loco can only pull 1/6th of the weight on the wheels... as a result of the coefficient of friction of steel wheels on rails. Rubber tyres can develop double the "pull" as the coefficient of friction is so much higher...
The burner I am working on is a 4in diameter and 4in tall cylinder. Glows red hot all over.... Very little external flame. Look up Beakert Duonit on the web. I'll dig out the proper numbers tomorrow, if you wish?
It's all in the numbers....
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

On Linux. I know - and have - a boot-up option for MS or Linux. But didn't know I had to partition the drive..... maybe I'll have a go when I make time.
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, As you asked, I have had a look back at the original calculations for the 5in. track,  A1 loco boiler.... As an ex-chemical process engineer, he has calculated (very detailed and precise calculations) exactly where all the heat is expected to go and how much power he needs from the combustion process.
The designer calculated he needed 20kW of heat in the boiler to raise steam at the required maximum rate. But this requires a 33kW Burner in his firebox. So he selected a proprietary burner, rated for somewhere between 30 and 70kW (depending upon firing method: forced or atmospheric) with a turn-down ability to around 20% of full power. I am modelling on those same sizes (4" dia x 4" long cylinder forming the burner), except I can increase the burner surface area by 20% within the same physical size - because of available materials - and to reduce the stress on the combustion zone below the level of the factory burner. So this keeps my brain busy, instead of playing computer games with Linux...
Regards,
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Incidentally, I mis-remembered the bore and stoke: The loco has 2 off,  2" bore and 2 1/2" stroke cylinders, double-acting. Using steam at 10bar, with some superheat. 
Designed to run at 240rpm. - Not a small engine! But it runs successfully. Copy the link address in to u-tube to see his loco in action.


Also: Some pictures of a proprietary 30kW burner "in action", 




and my first attempt at a 4kw burner. 




This took 7 or more iterations to get a stable burner, as the calculations are VERY loose and empirical... It is a start... I am now searching for a suitable supply of the knitted wire-mesh fabric - the key to the whole design... External combustion can pose similar challenges to infernal combustion to get a useful "running" combustion... Wrong mixture either won't burn or will give off toxic exhaust gases, internal pressure can force flames away from the burner or develop "flash-back" and melt-down of the burner! Or small explosions that excite my blood pressure too much!
A comment on "Burner power": A friend uses 3 x 9kW propane burners to drive his steam wagon - with a 4in diameter boiler 8in. high, at 100psi. A 5kW burner would only reach 55psi running the engine with wheels off the ground. Cramming that much burning gas into a firebox 3 1/2" diameter x 3" high has taken some time to develop! N.B. this is at "atmospheric", not compressed, as inside an IC engine cylinder. Get it wrong and the flames escape and burn the paint off the outside...
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

And this is my latest 10kW burner: ~4 inches diameter and 4 in. tall. (Just a mock-up: OK until the masking tape started to burn.). I had to stand back a bit as it was cooking me! It needs a bit less wire wool on the top surface, and a bit more air as the intake is too small for this jet and goes a bit rich above 20psi Propane... So a new intake Venturi is to be made. Hopefully I can then increase the jet size further - ambition is to achieve over 15kW Gas power! Then it starts to get interesting for loco boilers...
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> And this is my latest 10kW burner: ~4 inches diameter and 4 in. tall. (Just a mock-up: OK until the masking tape started to burn.). I had to stand back a bit as it was cooking me! It needs a bit less wire wool on the top surface, and a bit more air as the intake is too small for this jet and goes a bit rich above 20psi Propane... So a new intake Venturi is to be made. Hopefully I can then increase the jet size further - ambition is to achieve over 15kW Gas power! Then it starts to get interesting for loco boilers...
> K2
> View attachment 128311


Whoa, I had no idea that 15K would be so small.  How is it that the metal "hair" doesn't just burn up?"


----------



## Steamchick

It does burn up, not quickly as there is almost no oxygen in the flame.
- I think?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

I am trying to draw up the compound engine from January 3, 1924 Model Engineer and Electrician Mag.  It leaves a LOT to be desired.  Most of the dims can be gotten from other parts when not on the part being drawn.  However, there are a whole bundle that simply are left to conjecture.  The article does, however, provide a "tape measure" which is on e of the ways the old timers did some drawings.  YOu take your own tape measure and compare it to the magazines tape and off you go.

I'm wondering if anybody else has drawings for this?  I've got a lot done but some parts are very questionable.

BTW, I thimpfk there is a second compound model either in the same year or one befor or after.


----------



## Steamchick

On wire mesh burners:
Here's the new parts being made by "proper" people, that have appeared in their brochures only this year I think? - I didn't find anything when I was looking a year or 2 back... but have now found a few manufacturers using knitted NiChrAl wire wool or knitted fabric. - You can buy the material (min $100 + postage) from China.... but buyiong burners is obviously easier. e.g. 








						Product catalogue | Bekaert combustion
					






					heating.bekaert.com
				



But I'm sure the manufacturer's will know the (normal) life-time, service interval (and make a lot of money from) and "annual" replacement of "burnt-out" burners....
My GUESS is that you'll get a season of steaming a loco with one of these burners, but maybe not 2?
"Cemadore" shown attached is a Bekeart burner - type: Furinit/Duonit 98mm diameter x 100 high... Used in a large 5in. Pacific loco fiebox at up to  around 25~30kW. - Propane jet with venturi for air induction: So far I am only able to make about 1/3rd of that power without creating uncontrolled "flamations" with my version...!! - But I'm working on it....
However, the "experts" have done the development, and can make burners better than I can and at my costs for materials, they are a reasonable price(!). Considering their burners are "safe" - and people can just buy something for less than £100 that will power their loco worth thousands of pounds, I guess you "pays yer money"... etc.!
"Supersaver" burners use an inner "can" with very narrow slits for gas entering the combustion zone, which is inside the wire "wool" matrix. Then, as the gas exhaust is still very hot, they heat the gauze that is spaced away (1cm?) from the combustion zone, and that glows red-hot as well, increasing the radiant fraction of heat emitted from the burner.
BUT: (And here's the Engineering), many "coal fired" boilers do not easily adapt to a radiant gas burner, as the coal (smoke) contains a lot of particles that glow and burn even when passing through the flue tubes, thus imparting a lot of heat to the water/steam, that is NOT available in Gas fires locos. So if the gas burner isn't suited to your boiler design (fire-box size, and flue-tube CSA really) then you are stuck with coal. I would design a different boiler to be oil or gas powered to the boiler for coal or wood firing. (Wood-fired have twice the fire grate size to coal-fired I think?).
The real calculations are whether the burner you can fit in your firebox gives you enough heat (large enough jet size and matching venturi needed to get enough air to rapidly and cleanly burn all the gas!); the radiant heat to heat the fire-box, and enough remaining exhaust gas heat to heat the flue-tubes. Typically, radiant burners do not have a lot of "residual exhaust gas heat", relative to coal fired... so the boiler cannot achieve the same steam output with gas firing, as can be achieved with coal when the draught is forced....
If a boiler works OK with gas burners (like blow-lamps) that just give a lot of flame, then it will work BETTER with a radiant burner OF THE SAME GAS POWER... 
Finally, ceramics are only able to achieve 50~60% of the poewer of steel wire radiants, because the ceramic with crack, melt, or otherwise overheat at (>950 deg. C). temperatures that the wire radiants can manage (~1250 deg.C).
To improve the "Power" of a Cornish boiler with a 1in blow-lamp type burner, I have made a sleeve of wire wool - approx 1 1/4in bore x 1 3/4in OD with a blind-end 1/2in thich that the flame blasts into.... and this means I can increase the size of jet by 1 size over the max that the boiler can take without the wire radiant sleeve. - It means that the heat is radiated into the walls of the fire-tube, rather than hot exhaust gas that goes up the flue!
I have no idea how better a wire burner may be for Flash steam, but I can imagine the tube burner arrangement shown will take a coil or 3 of flash steam boiler up the bore very successfully?
Enjoy!
K2


----------



## Andy Munns

We once drew a scale on the lower part of a drawing that was say zero to 6 or 12 single inches marked on the right and then fractions of one inch on the left side. You used dividers to pick up a size from the drawing and transferred this to the scale below - You did not measure off the actual drawing as there could be scale changes through the copy process and paper shrinkage. 

Then, most darings were traced onto film - To copy, this film was passed through a lit roller system onto light sensitive paper that gave a true 1:1 white line on blue background copy (Blueprint). Later on, we had white on black copies and lastly we had black lines on white copy paper. Usually there was a faithful 1:1 copy, but I have seen a significant 2% paper shrinkage over the years that was found when verifying hull lines on ships.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Andy,
AAAH!  Yes, I remember it well. I still have (and sometimes use) my Grandfather's scale - wood of course - that even has a vernier at the sub-one-inch end. A very quick and easy tool to use. The only difficulty I have nowadays is finding some lead for my compasses. Imperial sizes must be available somewhere? But all the shops have gone since I last bought a pack of compass leads... or drawing ink pens, etc. I'm on the last of my propelling pencil leads now that they have gone metric as well. I blame CAD... Not sure what I will do when I run out of lead in my pencil... join the "virtual" world?
But my slide rule still works, as does my 1978 calculator (yes, I went "digital" back then).
Old [email protected] K2...


----------



## Richard Hed

Hey, calling all us gun nutbags.  Take a look at this:








						Puckle Gun (Video)
					

The Puckle Gun is probably best known as that thing that had round bullets for Christians and square bullets for Turks, but there is much more to it than just that (and in addition, the square bull…



					www.forgottenweapons.com
				




I will examine this site more for more oddities.  the one I am looking for is the steam gun that apparently was made sometime around 1820-30s which fired about a thousand rounds per minute.  It was rejected because it was too deadly.


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Regular poppet valves - as used in Infernal combustion engines - have a long and well proven history in that application, but I am not sure they lend themselves effectively to steam engines where they close-off the high pressure and superheated steam against lower pressure in the cylinder (e.g. during the exhaust stroke).
> Slide valves - in various forms - have been very effective for 200 years of engine development, so what specific issues are you trying to overcome with their limitations?
> A friend at the local club has made a Corliss valve engine - but is still trying to get the timing correct - he would tear his hair out if he had enough left! - That's all I know on the subject.
> K2


I managed to buy this book by J. Stumpf from 1912 or 1922, don't remember which, but it was difficult to find and difficult to buy.  This book has great analysis on the different portions of a uni-flo engine.  His analysis is that Uni-flos are superior in efficiency to all other types of steam engine.  In this book, there are no slide valves recommended, nor rotating valves.  They are a sort of poppet valve.  Naturally, I was considering whether or not a triple expansion engine could be made this way.  The way that the steam exits the cylinder, however, might make this problematic.


----------



## Zeb

Ladies, Gentlemen, behold, the Vapordyne....



I want to fashion one after Bill Lear to power my pneumo- brakes, actuatored by the northombobulator lever on my Dunlop equipped Spitfire MkiX and cooled by Tecalemit-Kilfrost-Sheepbridge Stokes fluid through a handpump near the gear lever and of the same shape and color so as to confusel the pilot -Blenheim style. 

This is the thread I always kneeded.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Ladies, Gentlemen, behold, the Vapordyne....
> View attachment 131504
> 
> I want to fashion one after Bill Lear to power my pneumo- brakes, actuatored by the northombobulator lever on my Dunlop equipped Spitfire MkiX and cooled by Tecalemit-Kilfrost-Sheepbridge Stokes fluid through a handpump near the gear lever and of the same shape and color so as to confusel the pilot -Blenheim style.
> 
> This is the thread I always kneeded.


Does that come with a Ginsu knife?


----------



## Zeb

@Richard Hed  Guaranteed, but if you order now, a thighmaster is included to keep legs a safe distance from the P8 compass radiation during flight.


----------



## Steamchick

Richard Hed said:


> Hey Ken, How are you doing on Linux?  I haven't heard anything about it in a while.  did you find out how to access your files?


Thanks for the interest Richard, but I gave up while I had too many other jobs at the front of the queue. (Front door and redecorating, time with my dear lady, some water pumps to complete boilers, lathe motor and variable speed control problems, etc.). Meanwhile the slow Windows has been automatically updated and is much quicker now.... so less motivation for Linux.
But I'll get back to it sometime....
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Hey guys,
I have a nasty problem in which I have a mill arm stuck in position -- looks like rust, but looks also very greased --  it will not move by the internal rack and pinion.  I have been loading it with anti-rust stuff (like wd40), have struck it with wood and sledge but it won't budge.  I am thimpfking of trying a hydralic jack between the neck holding the motor and the ring which mounts the arm.

Can you thimpfk of any other scenario in which would bind the mechanism.  The bolts holding this tight for work are completely loose.  I cannot see but there must be some kind of gibs in there.  Is it possible the gibs could gaul up or do something weird?  Maybe the shaft that turns the pinion gear is rusted or jammed in some wayu.  This is a Bridgeport and one would expect this to be a simple fix, but . . . .

Any advice might break it loose.


----------



## Zeb

Make sure the quill auto feed is not engaged if it has one, and the up-down lock thingie for the spindle is not stuck internally. I would definitely disassemble it before applying a jack, and WD40 will wipe off grease and ga_u_l_l_ any sliding surfaces.
Speaking of the Gauling...The Gauls defeated the Romans at Faesulae, but later the Romans defeated the Gauls at Telamon. 223-193 BC: Given those circumstances, the Bridgeport should definitely find success.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Make sure the quill auto feed is not engaged if it has one, and the up-down lock thingie for the spindle is not stuck internally. I would definitely disassemble it before applying a jack, and WD40 will wipe off grease and ga_u_l_l_ any sliding surfaces.
> Speaking of the Gauling...The Gauls defeated the Romans at Faesulae, but later the Romans defeated the Gauls at Telamon. 223-193 BC: Given those circumstances, the Bridgeport should definitely find success.


The problem is not in the head itself, rather it is the swivel base which has a rack and pinion (I'm beginning to thimpfk this may be the main prob) with a nut transmitting force by the pinion to the rack.   The dovetails may not have mooved for years thus allowing the grease to oxidize or evaporate or something.  Goo nooz:  we got it moved about 5".  ONe would thimpfk that it would start sliding easier, but if it is, it's not much easier.  It's now hanging off the edge of the dovetails about 2-1/2 ".  about 10-12" more to go.

I thimpfk this whole thing will have to be disassembled, cleaned, greased, bearings chekt and all the rest before anything else.  Wh;en I got it, they said there was something wrong with the hed, but they din't way what that was.  That's prol'y  why I got it so cheap.  I suspect the ting sat for quite a while.

And don't forget, how gauling Charles was.


----------



## Zeb

Why of course! Charles de Gaulle airport has been the location of many a sliced dove tail. I thought you might have meant the rack and pigeon on the head but makes sense know. The Romans will be victorious crossing the port by bridge.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Why of course! Charles de Gaulle airport has been the location of many a sliced dove tail. I thought you might have meant the rack and pigeon on the head but makes sense know. The Romans will be victorious crossing the port by bridge.


That sounds suspiciously like that guy from Frahns who worshipped "Our Lady" and made all those predictions about 'Napoloron' and 'Hister'.  Maybe YOU should get into the prediction business?!


----------



## Richard Hed

Just a report:
I used a hydraulic jack between the neck on the hed against the neck on the body, that is, the swivel base holding the arm.  The swivel base has a pinion which moves the rack which is part of the arm.  I managed to get the swivel base to move, it wasn't easy, until the pinion came to the end of the rack which, did not go all the way to the end of the arm.  That was a surprize, but I understand why.  So I tried to knock the pinion inward toward the inside of the swivel, howevr, when the thing came to the end of the gear portion, it naturally could not go any further.  After a while, I decided to try to knock the pinion outward which workt wonderfully.  Turns out the pinion turns completely freely when disengaged from the rack.  

Proceeding with the hydraulic jack, I managed to get the swivel off the arm.  It weighs about 125-150 lbs.  Too much for the 98lb weakling I am.

Well to make a short story long, the ways are completely gummed up with oxidized and hardened grease, varnish.  In fact, it is so awful that it appears that someone has glued a strip of something on the ways.  So, I am going to proceed with a razor blade and other tools to remove as much as I can before proceeding to the varnish remover.  

So here is my question:  What in the world is the best thing for varnish removal?  I will be doing this in an inclosed space, a small garage and I really do not want to inhale fumes for vary long.  When I light up a cig (outside, not in the house, car, garage or any other enclosed space)  I doesn't want my lungs and hed to explode.  I'm thimpfking some kind of nasty fluid with scothc brite.  Any better suggestions?  I'll try to remember to take a photo of this, a photo is worth 100 pages of explanation.


----------



## Steamchick

Nitromors paint stripper is likely to do the trick. But wear adequate eye and skin protection as it contains phosphoric acid as an active ingredient. DO NOT SMOKE! Phosphoric acid fumes turn to phosgene in the glowing cigarette, and phosgene was used by Germans as killing gas in the WW1 trench warfare! But well ventilated and without smoking you should be safe. Read the safety instructions!
K2


----------



## Rocket Man

When I saw, Flash Steam, I tough you were taking about something else.   About 30 years ago I filled a plastic cough syrup measuring cup with water about 1 tablespoon & 4% salt to make water conduct electricity.  Discharge a very large capacitor bank into the water it turns to steam 4 times faster than Black Powder explodes.  It blew a basket ball size hole in my work bench.   There should be a way to do this inside a V8 car engine to make it run on water.   How much water per cylinder maybe 1 or 2 drops for a Chevy 350 engine?


----------



## Richard Hed

Rocket Man said:


> When I saw, Flash Steam, I tough you were taking about something else.   About 30 years ago I filled a plastic cough syrup measuring cup with water about 1 tablespoon & 4% salt to make water conduct electricity.  Discharge a very large capacitor bank into the water it turns to steam 4 times faster than Black Powder explodes.  It blew a basket ball size hole in my work bench.   There should be a way to do this inside a V8 car engine to make it run on water.   How much water per cylinder maybe 1 or 2 drops for a Chevy 350 engine?


That sounds very exciting!  The thing is, a capacitor releases it's energy very quickly.  If one could get a battery to release it's energy this quickly, you would have a house sized hole in your work bench.  To try this as you say, in a car, you would have to have a bank of capacitors filled and ready for each cylinder and then the caps refill again.  You might be in the "energy laws" where the expanding steam would be equal to or less than the energy in the caps.  Thus you could not recharge the caps, at least not very long.  But I lilke the idea.


----------



## Steamchick

Back in the 1970s... ("I remember it well...")  Rover - in the UK - used capacitor discharge into solenoids for their electric locking doors. It took 3 seconds to re-charge the capacitor on the car I had. (15A wiring) but a fraction of a second to discharge the capacitor (30A wiring!). Nowadays, everyone uses small motors, gearboxes and allow "10 times" longer for lock operation (which is still less than 1 second!) but only uses 10A wiring...
And "capacitor discharge" ignition has more or less been replaced with coil-on-plug small coils driven by high-speed electronic switching of low voltage and low current as it saves so much cost of wiring....
Capacitors really pay for themselves in power transmission for impedance balancing/phase correction... Not as high power discharge devices. Except in High Voltage test labs, where capacitors - charged in parallel at low voltage - are discharged in series to develop incredibly high voltages to simulate lightning, etc! But for high current testing, switching generators onto "short-circuits" is the better way to dump the power! (Very exciting when a 5 ton test rig jumps 2 m into the air when things go wrong! The magnetic pulse stopped a few (mechanical) watches that day! - Needless to say, my test rig and the equipment on test survived, but the test lab had a week of repairs and replacement connections to resolve!).
Nostalgia, ain't what it used to be...
K2


----------



## Rocket Man

Richard Hed said:


> That sounds very exciting!  The thing is, a capacitor releases it's energy very quickly.  If one could get a battery to release it's energy this quickly, you would have a house sized hole in your work bench.  To try this as you say, in a car, you would have to have a bank of capacitors filled and ready for each cylinder and then the caps refill again.  You might be in the "energy laws" where the expanding steam would be equal to or less than the energy in the caps.  Thus you could not recharge the caps, at least not very long.  But I lilke the idea.



The down side is capacitors charge so slow each cylinder will need probably 60 capacitors charging so they can discharge in, 1, 2, 3, order each time the piston is in the firing position.  My capacitor bank is 3 caps in parallel, 5000 VDC 18,000. amps each = 54,000. amps total = 270,000,000. watts discharge.  These 3 caps weight close to 100 lbs total.  A vehicle will need to pull a 100 ft trailer full of capacitor but this could be done with a stationary engine with a building full of capacitors.  Experimenting will be required to determine minimum capacitor size and water injection into a insulated discharge cup.  RPM of the engine will be determined by the number of capacitors being charged.  My cap bank takes about 40 seconds to charge, 60 caps charging will allow the piston to fire 1 time per second = 60 RPMs.   When my capacitor bank discharges it will vaporize 4 ft of solid 1/8" diameter steel wire, it flashes as bright as the sun and sounds like as 30-06 rifle.  A much smaller cap bank can be used to vaporize 1 or 2 drops of water for each cylinder.

I had a used 5000w airport runway landing light this cap bank flashed it 1 time the entire light bulb vaporizes even the glass was gone.


----------



## Richard Hed

Rocket Man said:


> The down side is capacitors charge so slow each cylinder will need probably 60 capacitors charging so they can discharge in, 1, 2, 3, order each time the piston is in the firing position.  My capacitor bank is 3 caps in parallel, 5000 VDC 18,000. amps each = 54,000. amps total = 270,000,000. watts discharge.  These 3 caps weight close to 100 lbs total.  A vehicle will need to pull a 100 ft trailer full of capacitor but this could be done with a stationary engine with a building full of capacitors.  Experimenting will be required to determine minimum capacitor size and water injection into a insulated discharge cup.  RPM of the engine will be determined by the number of capacitors being charged.  My cap bank takes about 40 seconds to charge, 60 caps charging will allow the piston to fire 1 time per second = 60 RPMs.   When my capacitor bank discharges it will vaporize 4 ft of solid 1/8" diameter steel wire, it flashes as bright as the sun and sounds like as 30-06 rifle.  A much smaller cap bank can be used to vaporize 1 or 2 drops of water for each cylinder.
> 
> I had a used 5000w airport runway landing light this cap bank flashed it 1 time the entire light bulb vaporizes even the glass was gone.
> 
> 
> View attachment 131954


I would thimpfk it would sound more like a cannon going off.  This Photo, I guess it's a cap?


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Nitromors paint stripper is likely to do the trick. But wear adequate eye and skin protection as it contains phosphoric acid as an active ingredient. DO NOT SMOKE! Phosphoric acid fumes turn to phosgene in the glowing cigarette, and phosgene was used by Germans as killing gas in the WW1 trench warfare! But well ventilated and without smoking you should be safe. Read the safety instructions!
> K2


When I put the arm back on the swivel, have you got any suggestions as to which kind of lubricant should be used?  Grease or way oil?  I thimpfk way oil is the wrong choice as this is for something that it is for something that is constantly moving.  But the ways on this mill arm hardly ever move.  That is most likely what happened to this arm, it was never moved for probabgly decades and the lubricant turned to varnish.  Would gear oil for the lathe gears be a good choice?  I have some of that but of course, I can obtain whatever else would be a better choice.  

An odd thing I found in this arm is chips up inside the hollow area!  I have no idea how they could have gotten in side there.  It's incongruous!  But I have to clean them out and degrease the area.


----------



## Steamchick

I would be tempted to use a Molybdenum grease, as this is ideal to prevent anti-scuffing. The Molybdenum (solid material - effectively hard spherical dust!) in the grease will always permit sliding when you want it.  - Unless the grease (oil mixed with waxes) has completely dried-out to a lacquer - as has happened in your case. But my GUESS is that your dried out gung is tallow (animal grease) that has chemically degraded over time (the molecules de-hydrate) to re-form as lacquer. Mineral greases (as used in Moly slip or lithium grease) are much more stable over time... Or at least during the brief moment in time where we exist... (Hey Brian, we may think of you as Methusalah, but compared to the time it took the planet to convert vegetable matter to crude oils you are just a young stripling!).
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I would be tempted to use a Molybdenum grease, as this is ideal to prevent anti-scuffing. The Molybdenum (solid material - effectively hard spherical dust!) in the grease will always permit sliding when you want it.  - Unless the grease (oil mixed with waxes) has completely dried-out to a lacquer - as has happened in your case. But my GUESS is that your dried out gung is tallow (animal grease) that has chemically degraded over time (the molecules de-hydrate) to re-form as lacquer. Mineral greases (as used in Moly slip or lithium grease) are much more stable over time... Or at least during the brief moment in time where we exist... (Hey Brian, we may think of you as Methusalah, but compared to the time it took the planet to convert vegetable matter to crude oils you are just a young stripling!).
> K2


Do you know any trade naems?  Just look it up on duckduck go?


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, Sold as Molyslip in the UK - since I was a lad... - I have a tube (50 years old), and as CV joint grease... (I have a tin). But Walmart will have it at your end of the world, or 3&@y.. or double duck, or whatever you use. But the Molybdenum is the anti-scuffing part that makes if seriously black - and makes it work.
The Molyslip was always smeared - very thinly - ont pistons, cams, and othe sliding surfaces (plain bearings), etc. during engine builds and washed off into the oil (to make it black) and resist scuffing on initial start-up. Actually, the Moly particles are supposed to embed themselves into the surface cavities (at sub-microscopic level) to give a more durable surface ... Modern diesel pistons and high performance petrol pistons have it on the skirts - applied in a post machining process - as anti-scuffing compound, that only lasts (visibly) for hundreds of miles, yet the effect doubles the life of piston skirts etc. for wear...
Funny, but I was taught by mechanics who learned of the efficacy of Molybdenum during WW2 (possibly those Yanks brought it over us us Brits?), but us "young uns" generally don't know about it. (I feel like the exception when I explain it to everyone!). I recall discussing it with a Doctor of tribology (from Japan) who was discussing skirt scuffing and piston skirt design for reduced friction with the Hepworth and Grandage piston manufacturing Design Engineers. I asked why the pistons could not be factory coated with Moly grease to prevent scuffing at initial start-up - 2 years later it was happening - as a few microns of Moly pre-coat on the skirts of higher performance pistons! - Expensive, so only on the higher performance jobs (that need it) where the customer is paying that bit extra anyway! - Now it is a cheaper process and more widely applied...
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, Sold as Molyslip in the UK - since I was a lad... - I have a tube (50 years old), and as CV joint grease... (I have a tin). But Walmart will have it at your end of the world, or 3&@y.. or double duck, or whatever you use. But the Molybdenum is the anti-scuffing part that makes if seriously black - and makes it work.
> The Molyslip was always smeared - very thinly - ont pistons, cams, and othe sliding surfaces (plain bearings), etc. during engine builds and washed off into the oil (to make it black) and resist scuffing on initial start-up. Actually, the Moly particles are supposed to embed themselves into the surface cavities (at sub-microscopic level) to give a more durable surface ... Modern diesel pistons and high performance petrol pistons have it on the skirts - applied in a post machining process - as anti-scuffing compound, that only lasts (visibly) for hundreds of miles, yet the effect doubles the life of piston skirts etc. for wear...
> Funny, but I was taught by mechanics who learned of the efficacy of Molybdenum during WW2 (possibly those Yanks brought it over us us Brits?), but us "young uns" generally don't know about it. (I feel like the exception when I explain it to everyone!). I recall discussing it with a Doctor of tribology (from Japan) who was discussing skirt scuffing and piston skirt design for reduced friction with the Hepworth and Grandage piston manufacturing Design Engineers. I asked why the pistons could not be factory coated with Moly grease to prevent scuffing at initial start-up - 2 years later it was happening - as a few microns of Moly pre-coat on the skirts of higher performance pistons! - Expensive, so only on the higher performance jobs (that need it) where the customer is paying that bit extra anyway! - Now it is a cheaper process and more widely applied...
> Cheers!
> K2


I've heard of it.  I never knew it's properties.  I get some when wallyworld opens.  It's only 3:00AM here, now.


----------



## Zeb

I tird third that.
We used Lubriplate (moly grease) of various thicknesses for turbine starter generator splines, and driveshafts/power trains of various Bell helis. The stuff is pretty gnarly though (as in, thick black and doesn't come off your clothes).

Par-al-ketone is top dog extreme for anything exposed. That's for if your garage is sprayed daily with saltwater (Your area is nice and dry though).

We had this amazing (cleaner) grease for critical areas that I no longer remember the name of, but SuperLube is very similar. The FDA says you can eat it, even though it's packed with Teflon.








						Super-Lube Multi-Purpose Synthetic Grease 3oz - Sherline Products
					

Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) and more data about the lubricants can be found on the Super Lube web site at  www.super-lube.com.




					www.sherline.com
				




I slather this stuff all over the exposed surfaces on the Sherlines after every machining run on the kitchen island. I can go straight to dinner without warshing my hands!


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> I tird third that.
> We used Lubriplate (moly grease) of various thicknesses for turbine starter generator splines, and driveshafts/power trains of various Bell helis. The stuff is pretty gnarly though (as in, thick black and doesn't come off your clothes).
> 
> Par-al-ketone is top dog extreme for anything exposed. That's for if your garage is sprayed daily with saltwater (Your area is nice and dry though).
> 
> We had this amazing (cleaner) grease for critical areas that I no longer remember the name of, but SuperLube is very similar. The FDA says you can eat it, even though it's packed with Teflon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Super-Lube Multi-Purpose Synthetic Grease 3oz - Sherline Products
> 
> 
> Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) and more data about the lubricants can be found on the Super Lube web site at  www.super-lube.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sherline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I slather this stuff all over the exposed surfaces on the Sherlines after every machining run on the kitchen island. I can go straight to dinner without warshing my hands!


OK, the stuff I have is indeed moly black.  This is what was recommended for the change gears on my lathe.  I'll use it, i feel it is safe, protective and will not turn to varnish in a few years.  As most of us know, one rarely changes the position of the mill arm.  I'm sure there are some peeps who change it often because of whatever they are making but most of us, not.  

thanx Ken and Zeb


----------



## Zeb

Yeh, once I get one trammed I set and forget.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Yeh, once I get one trammed I set and forget.


I did have a purpose for moving one once, but I have completely forgotten what that was.  One of the things we should keep in mind, however, is that if you have something really big that will not fit on the table, the head can be swung around to, say, another table on which you can place an object.  For instance, if you needed to bore a cylinder that would not fit on the table, you could set it up on something else to hold it, swing the head round to meet it.  Doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but it has been done by others

Also, some thing that might fit on the table but overhangs the edge too much, you can simply run the arm out and do some work there.  I've seen that on utub.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, I am one of those "odd" owners of a Mill-drill with round column (like a regular pedestal drill) where the head can be raised, lowered, or rotated. It is tucked in the conrner of the bench (the only way it will fit) and to change belts, I need to lower the head to make room for the cover to hinge open, then raise the head again to get a vice, chuck and tools at a correct height to use the stroke of the quill. A 6" long drill or reamer, needs the head height changing after I change from a 2 1/2" long small milling cutter... Very versatile, NOT a high volume machining tool, as all the changes take time. But for "retirement odd jobs" it is very practical. As every toolmaker will teach you, it is not the cutting that makes a good job, it is the setting of the machine and tools. - But you live that motto anyway!
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Zeb,
I guess the FDA have not tasted the silicon grease loaded with PTFE. I guess the silicon grease coats the inside of the gut to prevent moisture crossing through membranes, (is that healthy?) while the "solid" PTFE particles - being inert in the human body? - have yet to be identified as a cause for cancer... (Unlike other molecular stuff like carbon...) - or get ejected with the other toxic waste.... Everything is safe in small enough quantities (even radioactivity - for medicinal purposes...) but eat a pound of the stuff and you may find how nasty some things can be! (drink 5 pints of water and you'll get the trots!).
Enjoiy the "grease"!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Richard Hed said:


> I did have a purpose for moving one once, but I have completely forgotten what that was.  One of the things we should keep in mind, however, is that if you have something really big that will not fit on the table, the head can be swung around to, say, another table on which you can place an object.  For instance, if you needed to bore a cylinder that would not fit on the table, you could set it up on something else to hold it, swing the head round to meet it.  Doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but it has been done by others





Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, I am one of those "odd" owners of a Mill-drill with round column (like a regular pedestal drill) where the head can be raised, lowered, or rotated. It is tucked in the conrner of the bench (the only way it will fit) and to change belts, I need to lower the head to make room for the cover to hinge open, then raise the head again to get a vice, chuck and tools at a correct height to use the stroke of the quill. A 6" long drill or reamer, needs the head height changing after I change from a 2 1/2" long small milling cutter... Very versatile, NOT a high volume machining tool, as all the changes take time. But for "retirement odd jobs" it is very practical. As every toolmaker will teach you, it is not the cutting that makes a good job, it is the setting of the machine and tools. - But you live that motto anyway!
> K2


Yes, we all realize you are "odd"


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Richard! - I take that as a compliment.
I call it "being individual"... (others may say "self-opinionated", which means I have my own opinion of myself.... 
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Richard Hed said:


> Yes, we all realize you are "odd"





Steamchick said:


> Thanks Richard! - I take that as a compliment.
> I call it "being individual"... (others may say "self-opinionated", which means I have my own opinion of myself....
> K2


Of course.


----------



## Richard Carlstedt

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, Sold as Molyslip in the UK - since I was a lad... - I have a tube (50 years old), and as CV joint grease... (I have a tin). But Walmart will have it at your end of the world, or 3&@y.. or double duck, or whatever you use. But the Molybdenum is the anti-scuffing part that makes if seriously black - and makes it work.
> The Molyslip was always smeared - very thinly - ont pistons, cams, and othe sliding surfaces (plain bearings), etc. during engine builds and washed off into the oil (to make it black) and resist scuffing on initial start-up. Actually, the Moly particles are supposed to embed themselves into the surface cavities (at sub-microscopic level) to give a more durable surface ... Modern diesel pistons and high performance petrol pistons have it on the skirts - applied in a post machining process - as anti-scuffing compound, that only lasts (visibly) for hundreds of miles, yet the effect doubles the life of piston skirts etc. for wear...
> .............................................................................................
> Cheers!
> K2


Steamchick nailed it , and it matches my training and experience with Moly.
 It impregnates itself in the 
surfaces of metal and forms sort of a plating with low friction. It is VERY important that it be applied to an absolute clean surface with out any other lube present . it you have oil on the surface, that "lube" will or may prevent the Moly to adhere . We applied it to our machinery in  places that were extremely difficult to lube. When we machined parts and applied the Moly soak, we got 3 x the life a non Moly part got. If a part is pre-oiled , thoroughly  wash it in MEK or Lacquer Thinner and then coat it with Moly and use it . then later use regular oil for lube as the metal will be microscopically plated.
When rebuilding high speed Punch Presses with journals of 7 to 11 inches in diameter, we sprinkled Moly powder on the new bronze bearings and the journal and added a small bit of oil for run in .
Overhaul spans doubled . and we used heavy oil for subsequent lubes.
There is a downside you need to know. It is great for initial lubrication, but it hardens or solidifies over time and grease lines /ports will plug . so once the parts are run in- use regular oil/grease. You can add a bit of Moly as long as it isn't the only lube .
Rich


----------



## Steamchick

Thanks Rich. Your hard experience has taught me how to use it properly. I had applied it where surfaces could contact (if dry) when rebuilding motorcycle engines - as taught by my Dad when I was 16. Engines were filled with oil after assembly, so I have been doing the right thing all the time!
Also more recently, my Moto Guzzi manual instructs filling the transmission and final drive with appropriate gear oils that are loaded with Moly... but they are supplied by the Unobtainium oil company. So I have to use regular E gear oil plus Molygear box additive, dissolved in some of the EP oil. (Instructions on the Moly gear additive cartridge). I guess it gets embedded in the metal surfaces during the rolling gear tooth contact where the Extreme Pressure is achieved?... 
K2


----------



## Tug40

Please forgive me Steamchick, but if you ride a Moto Guzzi you will always be considered “odd”.
Ask me how I know. I rode a Moto Guzzi V11 LeMans for years. Just checked, i still have a quart of Red Line synth 80wt trans oil with shockproof for it.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Tug, I forgive you. Odd is not wrong, just indivisible by 2. Like the timing of a V-twin! I do not think of Guzzis as odd, just "Engineered". There are other marks that may be considered "Odd". MZ for their trailing link front forks, or BMW similarly, but actually these were very clever Engineering solutions to improved accuracy of suspension, compared to girder forks... etc. Consider how odd it would be to take a computer with a keyboard, and throw away the keyboard? That is what we have done with mobile devices, tablets, and laptops.... so why type? Move on to voice control. Progress comes from sound Engineering plus meeting popular demand. Often popular demand often forces cost reductions to cheaper - not so good - options, which is how the telescopic fork superceded other linkage suspensions, and while early versions may have been inadequate, later versions (after a bit of Engineering) are better than ever. So "odd" is probably simply a step in evolution? And most people writing to this site record various steps in mechanical and engine evolution.... so, as Guzziologists, we fit in well. I.E. not odd in this group!
Good to meet you!
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Ladies, Scholars and Model Machinists:
I have a bundle of reamers that I recently acquired for sale.  I tried to find the forum place that has sales but couldn't find it.  So reamers (including a few that are .015").  There are brand new ones, very sharp and never used.  There are sharp ones but used.  Some are a bit rusty but still good.  A few are total rust and need re-ground--these, I would sell by the pound--just remember there are not a lot.  The largest size is around 5/8ths.  There might be a few larger ones. 

If someone wishes to se photos, I can do that.

There are many different kinds including spirals.  The ones with wax, I will assume are the size they claim, I don't want to remove wax to measure them.  I would advise that only persons in the USA (or maybe Canada) get them due to the postage.  USPS has a package that is one price for various sized boxes.  I would like to sell them in lots no less than 10 at a time.  When HMEM members are done buying what they want, I will sell them on ebay.

My eddress is [email protected]  .  If interested write me a note.


----------



## Richard Hed

Here are some photos of the reamers:

What I am holding in the first pic is a 1/32" reamer in a tube.


----------



## Richard Hed

Ah, I was looking thru my hoard and found some more reamers.  they are extremelly sharp and new and shiny and even a few that are larger, however, I most likely will keep those larger ones to add to my permanent collection unless there are doubles.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard, Here is my "Regular" supplier of reamers in the UK.
REAMERS (IMP) (tracytools.com) - I.E. Typically £10 each.
 Each order needs about £1 in postage, so that's not a lot. 
But if your reamers and postage are able to be posted across the wide blue ocean at a sensible cost, then I have about 3 or 4 sizes "missing" from my collection (Under 1/4"). 
You mentioned: "USPS has a package that is one price for various sized boxes. ":
What do the postage costs look like for a small package of 3 or 4 sub- 1/4" reamers? - If it is worth your bother sending them away...  (Often the combined customs and postage costs from N. America outweigh the total cost of European supplied parts to UK!).
If it looks sensible, I'll write directly with my needs.
Cheers!
Ken


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, Here is my "Regular" supplier of reamers in the UK.
> REAMERS (IMP) (tracytools.com) - I.E. Typically £10 each.
> Each order needs about £1 in postage, so that's not a lot.
> But if your reamers and postage are able to be posted across the wide blue ocean at a sensible cost, then I have about 3 or 4 sizes "missing" from my collection (Under 1/4").
> You mentioned: "USPS has a package that is one price for various sized boxes. ":
> What do the postage costs look like for a small package of 3 or 4 sub- 1/4" reamers? - If it is worth your bother sending them away...  (Often the combined customs and postage costs from N. America outweigh the total cost of European supplied parts to UK!).
> If it looks sensible, I'll write directly with my needs.
> Cheers!
> Ken


I'll check it out for you.  I suspect it will be too costly to send to Britain that's why I mentioned it would probably be best for Norte Americanos.  Yes, I have small reamers.  I suspect all the small ones to be imperial sizes.  I know there are some metric, however, too, but probably all a bit larger.

I have no idea at all about customs costs.  All I know on that is that Elizabeth Rex I leagalized smuggling and the economy of Britain skyrocketed.  A country may need customs to help run the country, but more often it is really used to stop other countries goods from entering in order for the country to build it's own manufacturing base.


----------



## Steamchick

Ha ha! We scrapped the idea of a manufacturing base after teaching all the colonials to do that "dirty work". Then joined the European Union who Legislated against such industries as Steel making, Ship building, FARMING, FISHING, etc! But then after the country had been "raped" - they wanted to buy our stock exchange, pension companies, NHS, Government Old Age Pension, etc. And pillage those! But we saw sense and escaped the EU. That should be celebrated as the British Tea party, akin to the Boston Tea party!
Nuff of the politics.
I'll check the sizes I need and write to you directly.
Thanks,
K2


----------



## modeng2000

Steamchick, I couldn't agree with you more, freedom!!


----------



## trueblueTEX

Richard Hed said:


> Here are some photos of the reamers:
> 
> What I am holding in the first pic is a 1/32" reamer in a tube.


How many small "hobbyist" type reamers would go into a "set" of inch reamers? A dozen  or so? 30?  I am new at this and haven't bought any reamers, yet but I'm about to embark on building some small steam engines.

How much would that mythical "hobbyist set" cost?
Thanks
Tex


----------



## Richard Hed

trueblueTEX said:


> How many small "hobbyist" type reamers would go into a "set" of inch reamers? A dozen  or so? 30?  I am new at this and haven't bought any reamers, yet but I'm about to embark on building some small steam engines.
> 
> How much would that mythical "hobbyist set" cost?
> Thanks
> Tex


You can get as many as you like however I have about 4-500 lbs of them.  I want to get them out of the way and I want to at least break even on what they cost me.  if you find the price on Shars for what you want, we can agree on a reasonable price which I expect will be less than Shars price.  However, I have some that are very high quality that will go for a higher price.

If you are just starting out, let me advise you.  You said you are in the hobbyist set.  If you are doing carburetors, you probably need a couple very small.  I have 1/32 and even smaller--so small in fact that they are barely visible.  You undoubtedly will need 1/8th, 3/16ths, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8th and then by 1/8 up to at least 3/4.  If you will use a reamer on small cylinders, you might need 7/8th and 1".  Not sure if I have any that large.  When you make your calculations, don't forget shipping.

Usually, one needs several reamers they use quite often and then occasionally need another.  But a nice set means you don't need to buy so often.


----------



## Zeb

trueblueTEX said:


> How many small "hobbyist" type reamers would go into a "set" of inch reamers? A dozen  or so? 30?  I am new at this and haven't bought any reamers, yet but I'm about to embark on building some small steam engines.
> 
> How much would that mythical "hobbyist set" cost?
> Thanks
> Tex


If I want sliding contact surfaces, my go-to set is the over-under reamer set (wish I had one). For any slip fits using standard hardware and measurements, they work great. A 1/4" bolt shank will fit nicely in a reamed hole from a Ø.256 over reamer. Interference fit can be made with a Ø.249. Bumping the speed up without burning up your HSS will get Ø.250.


----------



## Richard Hed

has anyone drawn or built the "Unusual Steam Engine" by Robert S. Hedin in "Steam and Stirling engines you can build" edited by William c. Fitt?  I am having trouble understanding how part 11 is built (or is drawn).  It has a circular feature on the drawing, however, since there is no perspective, it is difficult to see what that feature is or why it is necessary.  There are two of them, bearings for the crank.  The only thing I can thimpfk of is that it is a recess for a roller bearing.  However, I cannot find a reference to any roller bearings.


----------



## Richard Hed

I have just had my first experience with a 4-1/2" Bronze round.  I am cutting a half inch piece to make a gear.  I tried cutting it with a bandsaw--it cut about 3/8" and then basically would cut no more.  So I thot I would cut it partially with a cutoff blade in the lathe.  Well, that cut about 1/4" then snapped the round out of the chuck!  So I put it back in and put the tail stock up to hold it.  Well, it simply started spinning in the chuck!  I was surprized it didn't break the cut off blade.  

So, I learned that bronze is very difficult to machine.  My first firsthand experience with the stuff.  I lookt up the specs on this particular bronze 932 SAE 660 and it is supposed to have about 70% machinability.  -- I don't thimpfk so.  50% or maybe even less.  So, I'm thimpfking that if I use a bandsaw blade with fewer teeth, that is larger teeth, mine has teeth about 18-24 / inch, maybe 14 / inch or even 12, this might cut better.  Does anyone have a way to cut this?

What a surprize to cut something for the first time and find it will not cut!


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> I have just had my first experience with a 4-1/2" Bronze round.  I am cutting a half inch piece to make a gear.  I tried cutting it with a bandsaw--it cut about 3/8" and then basically would cut no more.  So I thot I would cut it partially with a cutoff blade in the lathe.  Well, that cut about 1/4" then snapped the round out of the chuck!  So I put it back in and put the tail stock up to hold it.  Well, it simply started spinning in the chuck!  I was surprized it didn't break the cut off blade.
> 
> So, I learned that bronze is very difficult to machine.  My first firsthand experience with the stuff.  I lookt up the specs on this particular bronze 932 SAE 660 and it is supposed to have about 70% machinability.  -- I don't thimpfk so.  50% or maybe even less.  So, I'm thimpfking that if I use a bandsaw blade with fewer teeth, that is larger teeth, mine has teeth about 18-24 / inch, maybe 14 / inch or even 12, this might cut better.  Does anyone have a way to cut this?
> 
> What a surprize to cut something for the first time and find it will not cut!


LOL
With a 4-1/2" round you could use a 2/3 tooth blade.
Your bandsaw stopped cutting because you have too high a down pressure and too many teeth and so there is too much material packing in the teeth which jams up the blade so it won't cut anymore.
If you're finding this hard to cut then you don't want to try aluminum bronze.
I love machining that stuff but you need some oompf and likely more juice than a 10" spin lathe has available.
Have used a lot of this stuff to make bearings - - - you know 5 years of a shaft turning 24/7 and then its time for a rebuild.
Dunno if a 6/8 blade is going to be coarse enough but if you keep you down pressure low and with lots of coolant on the blade and your speed moderate
you should be able to cut it.

(17-4ph stainless - - - now that's tough stuff to cut - - - ! Your 18/24 blade is great at thin section stuff - - - like 1/4" but really isn't at all appropriate for
thick material.)


https://onlinesupply.ca/image/data/blog-images/bi-metal-speed.jpg

https://www.starrett.com/docs/other-downloadable-resources/band-saw-blade-reference-guide 
   (a pretty good reference)


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> LOL
> With a 4-1/2" round you could use a 2/3 tooth blade.
> Your bandsaw stopped cutting because you have too high a down pressure and too many teeth and so there is too much material packing in the teeth which jams up the blade so it won't cut anymore.
> If you're finding this hard to cut then you don't want to try aluminum bronze.
> I love machining that stuff but you need some oompf and likely more juice than a 10" spin lathe has available.
> Have used a lot of this stuff to make bearings - - - you know 5 years of a shaft turning 24/7 and then its time for a rebuild.
> Dunno if a 6/8 blade is going to be coarse enough but if you keep you down pressure low and with lots of coolant on the blade and your speed moderate
> you should be able to cut it.
> 
> (17-4ph stainless - - - now that's tough stuff to cut - - - ! Your 18/24 blade is great at thin section stuff - - - like 1/4" but really isn't at all appropriate for
> thick material.)
> 
> 
> https://onlinesupply.ca/image/data/blog-images/bi-metal-speed.jpg
> 
> https://www.starrett.com/docs/other-downloadable-resources/band-saw-blade-reference-guide
> (a pretty good reference)
> 
> 
> View attachment 137507


Yes, I thot that the teeth were too small and packing up.  The piece has a 1-1/2" hole in the middle so that helps.  Will try to find a blade with 6-8 tpi.

thanx.


----------



## Steamchick

I recently had a similar experience with "unknown grade" Brass! Just "as hard as silver steel", it didn't want to drill, part-off, or cut a thread. My friend (???), who let me have a piece, said he didn't know what it was apart from looking like brass, bought as brass, and kept in his brass store. Maybe it is hardened? I feel I should keep it for some special purpose, but have not thought of that purpose yet?
Richard, I have cut Aluminium bronze (small pieces, 1" ~1 1/2") with a fine toothed hack-saw, but needs a new blade. As soon as the teeth "dull" they simple fail to bite so just rub to generate heat.... I use expensive hard-toothed and soft backed blades. Cheap hacksaw blades simply "don't cut-it" for me.
Generally, harder materials are best cut with a cut-off grind-stone. Simple carborundum for hard steels, but sacrificial stones (like for concrete and stone) seem better for "softer" alloy materials to avoid clogging? I buy 5" discs at 1mm thick for my angle grinder, in a cut-off jig.
I am currently having fun turning some annealed copper.... the tool has to be super sharp, high enough speed and fine cut and feed, but not too fine! As soon as I hear squeal/chatter I must stop as the grip has worked loose... It may become a hand-job?
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> I recently had a similar experience with "unknown grade" Brass! Just "as hard as silver steel", it didn't want to drill, part-off, or cut a thread. My friend (???), who let me have a piece, said he didn't know what it was apart from looking like brass, bought as brass, and kept in his brass store. Maybe it is hardened? I feel I should keep it for some special purpose, but have not thought of that purpose yet?
> Richard, I have cut Aluminium bronze (small pieces, 1" ~1 1/2") with a fine toothed hack-saw, but needs a new blade. As soon as the teeth "dull" they simple fail to bite so just rub to generate heat.... I use expensive hard-toothed and soft backed blades. Cheap hacksaw blades simply "don't cut-it" for me.
> Generally, harder materials are best cut with a cut-off grind-stone. Simple carborundum for hard steels, but sacrificial stones (like for concrete and stone) seem better for "softer" alloy materials to avoid clogging? I buy 5" discs at 1mm thick for my angle grinder, in a cut-off jig.
> I am currently having fun turning some annealed copper.... the tool has to be super sharp, high enough speed and fine cut and feed, but not too fine! As soon as I hear squeal/chatter I must stop as the grip has worked loose... It may become a hand-job?
> K2


I never thot about a cutoff tool.  Seems to me that it would not work, too much clogging?


----------



## william_b_noble

Richard Hed said:


> I never thot about a cutoff tool.  Seems to me that it would not work, too much clogging?


Rule of thumb for bandsaw,  3 tooth contact min, so coarser blade.  Parting tool will work. You may need to back out and move .010 in. to gain clearance.  Use cutting oil,  proper speed , e.g. slow, and tool on center. Tool must be sharp.  If it is not cutting, it's above center or dull


----------



## Zeb

It work hardens too if polishing and not cutting. Any time I work with those sticky, gluey metals on large Ø I google-fu.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> It work hardens too if polishing and not cutting. Any time I work with those sticky, gluey metals on large Ø I google-fu.


what's google-fu?


----------



## mcostello

Skill at using Google to search for information.  Example- His Google-Fu is strong.


----------



## william_b_noble

I must admit to breaking my share of parting tools but usually when I'm trying to cut with an ovrhang of around 2.5 to 3 inches on the tool, so a diameter of 5 to 6 (or more) inches, and always because of binding casused by the tool getting dull, or getting above center due to the 7 deg angle of the holder that I forget to lower as I extend the tool.  When I do things right I can part off a 5 inch SS part just fine though I tend to panic at the last 1/4 inch where binding is much more likely.  I often "cheat" for that last little bit and use a hack saw, then clean up after it is parted.


----------



## ajoeiam

william_b_noble said:


> I must admit to breaking my share of parting tools but usually when I'm trying to cut with an ovrhang of around 2.5 to 3 inches on the tool, so a diameter of 5 to 6 (or more) inches, and always because of binding casused by the tool getting dull, or getting above center due to the 7 deg angle of the holder that I forget to lower as I extend the tool.  When I do things right I can part off a 5 inch SS part just fine though I tend to panic at the last 1/4 inch where binding is much more likely.  I often "cheat" for that last little bit and use a hack saw, then clean up after it is parted.


Hmm - - - and how is that 'cheating'?

I'd call it prudence!


----------



## Richard Hed

I've been doing other things for a while.  as soon as I can get a bandsaw blade with less TPI, I'm gonna try that.  I thimpfks that it may have work hardened


----------



## Steamchick

Hi William, When Parting (as with most tool settings) I find excess chatter spoils the job after I extend the tool more than twice the depth of the blade/holder. But I am using a smaller lathe, tools and workpieces. As my parting tools are 2mm wide x 12 mm deep, I am really limited to a depth of cut of about 24mm. - or nearly an inch - before the singing-tool gets painful, and I feel in danger if the chatter digging-in and breaking something?
So when taking a slice off a 4" diameter aluminium billet, I have to use the hacksaw for the last 2" or so. So don't be shy when you have to do the same task on your "huge" lumps of stainless! I also find the tailstock with a rotating centre as a steady, or large, flat ended "dead-end", helps to stabilise the job for the last cut and helps prevent the cut-off part leaping to some obscure corner of the workshop, never to be seen again...

A "happy 4th" to all our USA friends. We British will one day present the tax bill for all the unpaid taxes to the Crown since you declared "independence", but until then, "enjoy the party"! 
K2


----------



## Bentwings

william_b_noble said:


> I must admit to breaking my share of parting tools but usually when I'm trying to cut with an ovrhang of around 2.5 to 3 inches on the tool, so a diameter of 5 to 6 (or more) inches, and always because of binding casused by the tool getting dull, or getting above center due to the 7 deg angle of the holder that I forget to lower as I extend the tool.  When I do things right I can part off a 5 inch SS part just fine though I tend to panic at the last 1/4 inch where binding is much more likely.  I often "cheat" for that last little bit and use a hack saw, then clean up after it is parted.


our local welding supply has a white stick material that is sold as saw dressing , turns out that it is a great non stick non loading thing for cut off wheels if you use some on the edge of a cut off wheel you can slice aluminum or other soft metals. I’ve also heard but not tried that plain hand bar soap works the same way  there used to be a soap stone years ago that we used the same way .

We have found some cut off wheels that really do cut aluminum . We got these at fasten all but it’s hard to find in their system .  Along with this are flap wheels that work on aluminum without loading up. They have a white coloring like they have been coated however  they do get after aluminum . We try not I mix metals with the wheels. It doesn’t work too well to TIG weld aluminum that has been sanded or ground with a wheel used on steel.   

Byron


----------



## william_b_noble

not also that I have read several accident reports, some with death and very serious injuries when the sanding dust from aluminum and iron are mixed in a pile and some sparks ignite the mixture, which is basically thermite.  I'd agree that mixing metals from sanding/grinding is best avoided, or at least clean up the pile from time to time.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Byron. You mention TIG welding aluminimum. Have you TIG welded copper?
K2


----------



## william_b_noble

why would you want to TIG weld copper?  silver solder is very strong and faster and invisible when done right (well "nearly invisible").  you can also weld copper by putting a current directly through it and bonding it that way.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi William. For "boiler work". There is a limit (according to USA ASME Regulations) of 100psi for "silver soldered copper boilers". 
But in the UK there are some boiler makers who make Copper boilers that are TIG welded. I think they go to 120psi NWP (TBC?). - Beyond that the permissible stress for copper (due to the elevated temperature yield stress "drop-off") makes it "uneconomic". 
But for Superheaters in Copper, thick walled tubing can permit higher temperatures due to the extra copper cross-section compensating for the yield stress drop-off... I think? Or am I just in need of Stainless Steel TIG welded superheaters?
Of course, if I didn't care about the Factors of Safety in the current Regulations, I could "cheat"... but those risks are not in my book of rules.
I worked in an industry that used Copper and Aluminium (for electrical reasons), so I saw copper fabrications, and we MIG welded aluminium onto aluminium plates that had been "explosion bonded" onto copper plates that were a part of the fabrications. I have also heard of full-sized loco boilers in copper being repaired by welding where they have had cracks... Maybe that used Oxy-acetylene? I really don't know?
There seems to be little literature about this, just an odd U-tube demo that doesn't explain TIG current versus material thickness, etc.
TIG just seems a neater and "stronger" process - to me at least. Am I in "cloud-cuckoo land"?
Cheers!
K2


----------



## Bentwings

william_b_noble said:


> not also that I have read several accident reports, some with death and very serious injuries when the sanding dust from aluminum and iron are mixed in a pile and some sparks ignite the mixture, which is basically thermite.  I'd agree that mixing metals from sanding/grinding is best avoided, or at least clean up the pile from time to time.


We are pretty careful about cleaning up grinding. Years ago some magnesium got sanded on a belt sander then one of of the guys sanded some steel. The machine caughtfirebrilliantly . Huge mess after fire extinguishers were usd. Melted some ofvthe heavy parts. Ironically it was almost brand new so it entered the dumpster un glamorously . I saw one other magnesium fire as an apprentice in the tool shop. Same deal magnesium and hot steel . Melted a hole in the chip pan on a big lathe   There nearly was a disaster in the shop if it had spread. Lots of flammable oils and piles of magnesium aircraft parts. Glad I close to the exit.


----------



## Richard Hed

I'm looking to buy a VFD for 2 HP 3ph motor.  I have found two inexpensive ones: 









						3 hp VFD, Single Phase to Three Phase VFD
					

Low price 3hp VFD, convert 220V/230V/240V 1 phase to 3 phase, 10amps, RS485 enabled, shipping weight 3kg, manufacturer direct sale.




					www.ato.com
				












						ODE-3-220105-1F42
					






					www.driveswarehouse.com
				




Am wondering if anyone has any experience with either of these and if they recommend one?  What about other brands?  Has anyone a preference or recommned?


----------



## Sprocket

I've been using a 2hp version of this, 110V single phase to 220V three phase and have liked it
VFD, 3hp, 230V, Single Phase Input, IP20, Medium D. on my Bridgeport.
Easy to set up, does more than I need it to do. Somewhere between your two in price.
Actually got a second one to run the table drive.


Doug


----------



## Richard Hed

Sprocket said:


> I've been using a 2hp version of this, 110V single phase to 220V three phase and have liked it
> VFD, 3hp, 230V, Single Phase Input, IP20, Medium D. on my Bridgeport.
> Easy to set up, does more than I need it to do. Somewhere between your two in price.
> Actually got a second one to run the table drive.View attachment 139584
> 
> Doug


Thanx for that.  Of the two I found, one had a warrantee and the other didn't say.  The more expensive one, I thimkpfks , is the one that didn't say.  It may be a fine VFD, but if it is fine, then why isn't there a warrantee?  I suppose they both are made in China and hyou never know what you are going to get from there.  Jus t from what I read on that site, I thimpfks I am already leaning that way.


----------



## xpylonracer

Doug

Do you run the mill as shown in the picture, no covers on the terminals ?


----------



## Bentwings

Richard Hed said:


> I'm looking to buy a VFD for 2 HP 3ph motor.  I have found two inexpensive ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 hp VFD, Single Phase to Three Phase VFD
> 
> 
> Low price 3hp VFD, convert 220V/230V/240V 1 phase to 3 phase, 10amps, RS485 enabled, shipping weight 3kg, manufacturer direct sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ato.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ODE-3-220105-1F42
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.driveswarehouse.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The closest I could say is our Grizzl late has one about 1 hp and it works great
> 
> Am wondering if anyone has any experience with either of these and if they recommend one?  What about other brands?  Has anyone a preference or recommned?


----------



## Sprocket

xpylonracer;
Yes. That picture is a bit deceptive. I just went to look because I didn't remember them looking that exposed, and they are fairly deeply recessed in the front
of the box. Wires would feed from underneath. 
Doug


----------



## Bentwings

Steamchick said:


> Hi Byron. You mention TIG welding aluminimum. Have you TIG welded copper?
> K2


yes it TIG welds very nicely but it gets very hot very quickly  this make bread control much more difficult  i simple put the weldment  in a  bucket of water copper annuals like this donut gets pretty soft . It happened to be a model exhaust system the vibration seemed to sort of work harden  it but it more or less self annuals as it cools.  It never broke.  Actually it’s easier to divine braze rather than weld  again it gets hot very quickly  I used a water spray bottle  residual heat dries it quickly   I didn’t have any heat or bar stock for mounts so I just split some tubing and flattened it in the vice . A little scotch brute cleaned it up forecwelding and brazing .  At one point the shop I worked in had a big copper cooling plate  get some fittings broken off they were drilled out then then sent out for welding  it was nearly 2” thick and about 12 ” x 24” so really heavy  the welding was very good so retreading holes was relatively easy . It was probably oven pre heated


----------



## MrBubble

Richard Hed said:


> I'm looking to buy a VFD for 2 HP 3ph motor.  I have found two inexpensive ones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 hp VFD, Single Phase to Three Phase VFD
> 
> 
> Low price 3hp VFD, convert 220V/230V/240V 1 phase to 3 phase, 10amps, RS485 enabled, shipping weight 3kg, manufacturer direct sale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ato.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ODE-3-220105-1F42
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.driveswarehouse.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am wondering if anyone has any experience with either of these and if they recommend one?  What about other brands?  Has anyone a preference or recommned?


I am using this inexpensive VFD rated for 5HP 220v on a 3HP motor, works well and the manual is not great but OK.
The auto tuning is a nice feature.


			https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075M8R77M


----------



## Zeb

ehem, back on topic...
@Richard Hed, 
If you type in "experimental flash steam" into one of the new AI image generators, you get some interesting results! Exactly the hyer level science found amongst such exemplarye compaigny.









A few others...


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> ehem, back on topic...
> @Richard Hed,
> If you type in "experimental flash steam" into one of the new AI image generators, you get some interesting results! Exactly the hyer level science found amongst such exemplarye compaigny.
> 
> View attachment 139866
> 
> View attachment 139867
> 
> A few others...
> View attachment 139868
> 
> View attachment 139869


Are these actual objects or are they AI generated.  THey ARE indeed interesting.


----------



## Zeb

The AI will take what you type, and from a massive pool of images from google or whatnot, will try to generate what you type.
This one came out pretty funny: _"Moses Lake in the great soviet of washington, red dawn, chimney smoke, dark, cinematic, wide angle perspective"_

Back to engines, I think some out of the box ideas could be had. Making a functioning steam engine out of an aurtistic work might produce something interesting.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> The AI will take what you type, and from a massive pool of images from google or whatnot, will try to generate what you type.
> This one came out pretty funny: _"Moses Lake in the great soviet of washington, red dawn, chimney smoke, dark, cinematic, wide angle perspective"_
> 
> Back to engines, I think some out of the box ideas could be had. Making a functioning steam engine out of an aurtistic work might produce something interesting.
> 
> View attachment 139903
> 
> 
> View attachment 139905
> 
> 
> View attachment 139906


I just finished a book called Hitler and Stalin.  These AI constructions certainly look like a possible landscape of Stalinist Russia.  Only difference is that is it would not be dawn but rather mid-day in mid summer!


----------



## Zeb

I had to tricksies the AI a bit to think the dawn was red. 
I be halfway reading The Harvest of Sorrow by Robert Conquest....regarding Stalin's terror famine.


----------



## Richard Hed

I have gotten this huanyang VFD 1Ph to 3PH 220V.  The manual is not made for ONE VFD--it's made for all the types they make.  Thus they complicate the possibility of easily understanding how to wire the damned thing.  Actually, I thimpfk it is quite simple (until you try to read their shitty pamphlet).  Hook the two 220V wires to the two correct hookups.  the third (ground) apparently does not need to be attached.  Then hook up the three 3PH wires to the appropriate terminals.  Apparently no need for the ground?  So, my big problem is the grounds--Anyone know what is supposed to be attached?

Also, is there a way to check the frequency?  I use 60 hz in USA.  Does it have to be set someway?  and if so, how does one go about that?


----------



## Sprocket

Can't help with the grounding, but on my VFD, the Hz are controlled by a dial to vary speed, with 60Hz being max.
Doug


----------



## Richard Hed

Sprocket said:


> Can't help with the grounding, but on my VFD, the Hz are controlled by a dial to vary speed, with 60Hz being max.
> Doug


Ah, maybe I simply do not understand, but I thot that the input needed a rating and that that may have been programmable to either 50Hz or 60Hz.  And that naturally those of us in the Western hemisphere will have 60 Hz.  The output, on the other hand, uses that dial.


----------



## Sprocket

There was no setting of 50 or 60 Hz input as it was a for US use, only output which is the variable. 
But different manufacturers may do things differently....
Doug


----------



## Richard Hed

Sprocket said:


> There was no setting of 50 or 60 Hz input as it was a for US use, only output which is the variable.
> But different manufacturers may do things differently....
> Doug



yes, mine is Huanyang .  the pamphlet is ridiculously krappy.  I thimpfks I will simply hook it up to the two inputs and the three 3ph outputs and see what happenas.  I bought it ridiculously cheap with the thot that If I ruined it, I could simply buiy a new one and still be cheaper than a known quality one for 4/5X the price.  Many of them are programmable.


----------



## MrMetric

Richard... Honestly, input frequency probably doesn't really matter, and here is the reason why....

VFDs work by rectifying the AC inputs so that they can create a high voltage DC bus inside the VFD.  That bus has some big capacitors on it.  Anyhow, the computer *generates* the three phase outputs for the motor from that DC bus.  It controls speed by changing the output frequency and voltage, constantly monitoring these to manage the desired speed.

Herein lies part of the consideration when configuring the VFD (aka, programming it).  Frequency is dv/dt, which is a nice way of mathematically saying "the change of voltage in time."  The higher the frequency, the faster change in voltage.  Now, the problem with that is that this is hard on the insulation of traditional motors if they are not built for VFD use.  The net result is that you have minute arcs between windings.  Over time, these can get worse and eventually result in a solid arc that burns out the motor.  This is why you want to limit the frequency to something reasonable.

This, by the way, is why VFDs can be used for smaller HP motors.  In essence, they are small phase converters but with a twist.  They are not designed to have heaters or other devices that act as switches between their outputs and the motor.  For this same reason, they cannot be used to run multiple motors that turn on and off the way you would use a traditional phase converter.  The one exception is Phase Perfect.  It is built on VFD principles, but it does this with a patented algorithm and technology.

Hopefully this helps explain a bit of how a VFD works and explain your question a bit.


----------



## Richard Hed

MrMetric said:


> Richard... Honestly, input frequency probably doesn't really matter, and here is the reason why....
> 
> VFDs work by rectifying the AC inputs so that they can create a high voltage DC bus inside the VFD.  That bus has some big capacitors on it.  Anyhow, the computer *generates* the three phase outputs for the motor from that DC bus.  It controls speed by changing the output frequency and voltage, constantly monitoring these to manage the desired speed.
> 
> Herein lies part of the consideration when configuring the VFD (aka, programming it).  Frequency is dv/dt, which is a nice way of mathematically saying "the change of voltage in time."  The higher the frequency, the faster change in voltage.  Now, the problem with that is that this is hard on the insulation of traditional motors if they are not built for VFD use.  The net result is that you have minute arcs between windings.  Over time, these can get worse and eventually result in a solid arc that burns out the motor.  This is why you want to limit the frequency to something reasonable.
> 
> This, by the way, is why VFDs can be used for smaller HP motors.  In essence, they are small phase converters but with a twist.  They are not designed to have heaters or other devices that act as switches between their outputs and the motor.  For this same reason, they cannot be used to run multiple motors that turn on and off the way you would use a traditional phase converter.  The one exception is Phase Perfect.  It is built on VFD principles, but it does this with a patented algorithm and technology.
> 
> Hopefully this helps explain a bit of how a VFD works and explain your question a bit.


Thanx, it helps.  So . . . it should be totally safe to simply hook up and go?


----------



## Toymaker

Richard Hed said:


> I have gotten this huanyang VFD 1Ph to 3PH 220V.  The manual is not made for ONE VFD--it's made for all the types they make.  Thus they complicate the possibility of easily understanding how to wire the damned thing.  Actually, I thimpfk it is quite simple (until you try to read their shitty pamphlet).  Hook the two 220V wires to the two correct hookups.  the third (ground) apparently does not need to be attached.  Then hook up the three 3PH wires to the appropriate terminals.  Apparently no need for the ground?  So, my big problem is the grounds--Anyone know what is supposed to be attached?
> 
> Also, is there a way to check the frequency?  I use 60 hz in USA.  Does it have to be set someway?  and if so, how does one go about that?



In general, the 220 VAC input frequency of either 50 or 60 Hz wont matter since the input AC goes into a rectifier and is changed to DC.  The electronics inside your VFD then changes that DC voltage back into an AC voltage that drives your motor at whatever frequency you set the VFD.  

Ground wire is not absolutely necessary for the VFD to work properly, but not using the ground could create a shock hazard,...no way to be sure without a full set of schematics.  

Here's a partial schematic of a 3-phase VFD showing only the power sections; the parts generating the variable frequency are not shown.


----------



## Richard Hed

Toymaker said:


> In general, the 220 VAC input frequency of either 50 or 60 Hz wont matter since the input AC goes into a rectifier and is changed to DC.  The electronics inside your VFD then changes that DC voltage back into an AC voltage that drives your motor at whatever frequency you set the VFD.
> 
> Ground wire is not absolutely necessary for the VFD to work properly, but not using the ground could create a shock hazard,...no way to be sure without a full set of schematics.
> 
> Here's a partial schematic of a 3-phase VFD showing only the power sections; the parts generating the variable frequency are not shown.
> View attachment 140434


Ah, this helps.  However, even this schematic shows 3 wire input for US 220V which I have at my place too.  US 220 is two limbs each of 110 using a neutral or ground.  The neutral being common to both the branches which means  . . . 3 . . . wires!  However, the VFD has only two terminals and maybe an unnecessary ground.  

I'm not sure how that works.  When I set this up, I WILL check for shockability before useing.


----------



## jumps4

Richard 
 Here is a video that shows the equipment ground connection ( the green wires)
This is for safety.
Steve






						wiring the huanyang - Bing video
					






					www.bing.com


----------



## Richard Hed

jumps4 said:


> Richard
> Here is a video that shows the equipment ground connection ( the green wires)
> This is for safety.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiring the huanyang - Bing video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bing.com


Thanx, this was really helpful, specially as I found a bundle more Huanyang vids that explained more stuff.  There IS some important programming that is relatively easy IF you have good instructions.  Like I said elsehwere, the Huanyang pamphlet is worse that sukky.  The paper wouldn't even be good to light a fire or a cigar with.

PS, your icon is going to the beach?


----------



## chuck_laws

jumps4 said:


> Richard
> Here is a video that shows the equipment ground connection ( the green wires)
> This is for safety.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wiring the huanyang - Bing video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bing.com


This is absolutely correct. You MUST use grounds with a VFD! As Richard said it is for safety which is obvious and essential to your long life, but it also provides a ground path for the nasty voltage and current noise spikes and transients that VFD's and motors may create. Not installing a good ground will certainly impact the lifespan and performance of a VFD system. DO NOT confuse Ground and Neutral connections...the only place they should be tied together is at the power entry point from your hydro provider in your building. Also, a separate ground from each piece, i.e. the motor and VFD should be run to a common ground point - do not run a wire from motor to VFD and then to ground. Always! use a separate insulated wire. Stranded wire is best for this purpose since it offers lower impedance to the high frequency noise.

Also, not all VFD's require a neutral with 220 wiring...you must read the spec sheet and manual. When in doubt hire an electrician for your own safety


----------



## Richard Hed

chuck_laws said:


> This is absolutely correct. You MUST use grounds with a VFD! As Richard said it is for safety which is obvious and essential to your long life, but it also provides a ground path for the nasty voltage and current noise spikes and transients that VFD's and motors may create. Not installing a good ground will certainly impact the lifespan and performance of a VFD system. DO NOT confuse Ground and Neutral connections...the only place they should be tied together is at the power entry point from your hydro provider in your building. Also, a separate ground from each piece, i.e. the motor and VFD should be run to a common ground point - do not run a wire from motor to VFD and then to ground. Always! use a separate insulated wire. Stranded wire is best for this purpose since it offers lower impedance to the high frequency noise.
> 
> Also, not all VFD's require a neutral with 220 wiring...you must read the spec sheet and manual. When in doubt hire an electrician for your own safety


The manual and spec sheet are virtually worthless.  THat's why I am asking you all for advice.  I have downloaded a ton of vids found because of the advice of persons above.  Thanx to all.


----------



## Richard Hed

I'm building a cross slide for a Grizzly G4003g that will be a couple inches longer than the one that came with it.  The important reason is that I want some T-slots to enable attaching other tools and accessories.  It will end up being about 3/8ths inch thicker than the present one.  It is straight forward, a couple things needed to add but still nothing special.  However, Idon't know about how to design the cross slide gib.  The parallelogram part is not the problem.  It's 'is the part thicker at one end'?  problem.  I would thimpfk that it would be a degree or half a degree slanted.  Naturally, the cross slide way would have to have a like slant.  Am I right?  does any one know anything about this?


----------



## mcostello

I bought a Huanyang Vfd and it would not save the settings I entered. Went with rotary converter.


----------



## Richard Hed

mcostello said:


> I bought a Huanyang Vfd and it would not save the settings I entered. Went with rotary converter.


what about returning it?  Maybe ;you had some setting wrong.  the dog-damned pamphlet was WORSE than worthles..


----------



## ShopShoe

Richard,

Can you measure the parts of your existing cross-slide assembly to determine what is what?

When I made a tapered gib assembly from scratch, I modeled it it CAD. I can't remember whether you do CAD? (This was not for your lathe, however.)

To manually machine the parts, you can put one part in the mill so it will cut the desired taper, then use that part to set up the mating part for cutting. Obviously, there are some mental gymnastics to keep track of up and down and front and back and in and out. And you need to make a little big to allow for finishing that takes off more metal.

Another thing I had done was make the gib "longer" than required, then trim the ends to get the final-fit size.

I don't know if this will help, but good luck.

--Shopshoe


----------



## mcostello

I returned the VFD with no problems. My experience with Far East sellers is that the quality may not always be there but the service has been top notch, of course I remain polite and do not "loose it."


----------



## Richard Hed

ShopShoe said:


> Richard,
> 
> Can you measure the parts of your existing cross-slide assembly to determine what is what?
> 
> When I made a tapered gib assembly from scratch, I modeled it it CAD. I can't remember whether you do CAD? (This was not for your lathe, however.)
> 
> To manually machine the parts, you can put one part in the mill so it will cut the desired taper, then use that part to set up the mating part for cutting. Obviously, there are some mental gymnastics to keep track of up and down and front and back and in and out. And you need to make a little big to allow for finishing that takes off more metal.
> 
> Another thing I had done was make the gib "longer" than required, then trim the ends to get the final-fit size.
> 
> I don't know if this will help, but good luck.
> 
> --Shopshoe


I have been thimpfking about it and figure the saddle most likely has the taper in it rather than the cross slide.  However, to know for sure I would have to disassemble it to see.  I don't want to disassemble it at this time so I am going to let it go. I am also thimpfking that I won't need a longer gib anyway.

Here is a drawing.


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> I have been thimpfking about it and figure the saddle most likely has the taper in it rather than the cross slide.  However, to know for sure I would have to disassemble it to see.  I don't want to disassemble it at this time so I am going to let it go. I am also thimpfking that I won't need a longer gib anyway.
> 
> Here is a drawing.



Hmmmmmmm - - - wondering - - - - how are you - - or how did you cut that 59 degree + some minutes of arc angle?


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Hmmmmmmm - - - wondering - - - - how are you - - or how did you cut that 59 degree + some minutes of arc angle?


Well, just round up to the nearest degree on the drawing.  I don't know how that came out that way.  Maybe I can edit it, but as for myself, I don't sweat the small stuff and as I made the drawing for myself, I know what it is supposed to be.  Just use a 60deg cutter.


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> Well, just round up to the nearest degree on the drawing.  I don't know how that came out that way.  Maybe I can edit it, but as for myself, I don't sweat the small stuff and as I made the drawing for myself, I know what it is supposed to be.  Just use a 60deg cutter.



Sorta what I thought was the case - - - - thought I'd ask just in case there was some 'interesting' machining going on to get that kinky angle.


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Sorta what I thought was the case - - - - thought I'd ask just in case there was some 'interesting' machining going on to get that kinky angle.


Yup, I fixt it.


----------



## Richard Hed

ShopShoe said:


> Richard,
> 
> Can you measure the parts of your existing cross-slide assembly to determine what is what?
> 
> When I made a tapered gib assembly from scratch, I modeled it it CAD. I can't remember whether you do CAD? (This was not for your lathe, however.)
> 
> To manually machine the parts, you can put one part in the mill so it will cut the desired taper, then use that part to set up the mating part for cutting. Obviously, there are some mental gymnastics to keep track of up and down and front and back and in and out. And you need to make a little big to allow for finishing that takes off more metal.
> 
> Another thing I had done was make the gib "longer" than required, then trim the ends to get the final-fit size.
> 
> I don't know if this will help, but good luck.
> 
> --Shopshoe


I've got several CADs including my son.  I use Alibre now, I really like it, but if I need great power, I use AutoCAD Architectural 3D which works with mechanical just fine.  

I am wondering if you thimpfk that the gib needs to be longer than the one I have inthe cross slide on the machine now?  I'm thimpfking it won't work as the gib is only necessary to fit across the saddle.  If it is extended, then it would just be out flapping in the wind.  The new cross slide will only be a couple inches longer and should not really affect the wobblyness of any cutting tools.


----------



## ShopShoe

Richard,

You just raised an interesting point. I think you can get by with the normal-length gib, at least to start. I am pretty sure you could make a longer one later if you wanted one.

I'll be interested in further news on this project as it develops.

--ShopShoe


----------



## Richard Hed

I'm trying to design a quick milling attachment that fits on the tool post.  Necessarily it must be small.  I have a prototype design.  I would appreciate if any one can critique it and improve it.  I have many mistakes.

the part that fits on the tool post, a BXA post with the six holes, the holes are made to screw into the side of the slide body.  You will notice all the holes in the slide body, is so it is adjustable by dismantling it and reassemblibng it in a different position.  Crude but simple.  It's made to fit on either side.  The screw is split in half as far as the threads go--half RH, hlaf LH, as you know it must be for work as a clamp.


----------



## ShopShoe

I wonder if a lot of stress is concentrated on the screws that hold the vice to the toolpost attachment (dovetail) piece. I wonder if that would be a point of failure. I also wonder if there would be some flexing and more chatter in use.

I myself would be more inclined to remove the QCTP and use the toolpost mounting bolt to secure such an attachment (lacking crossslide dovetails as I believe you said earlier)

I believe the late Chuck Fellows modified a lathe where he removed the compound slide and used a large toolpost without the compound for a lot of tasks, but made a toolpost mounting adapter which included it's own compound slide. I didn't spend time looking to see if Chuck's old post is archived, but maybe someone can find it.

With respect to your inventiveness and no ill intended,

--ShopShoe


----------



## Richard Hed

ShopShoe said:


> I wonder if a lot of stress is concentrated on the screws that hold the vice to the toolpost attachment (dovetail) piece. I wonder if that would be a point of failure. I also wonder if there would be some flexing and more chatter in use.
> 
> I myself would be more inclined to remove the QCTP and use the toolpost mounting bolt to secure such an attachment (lacking crossslide dovetails as I believe you said earlier)
> 
> I believe the late Chuck Fellows modified a lathe where he removed the compound slide and used a large toolpost without the compound for a lot of tasks, but made a toolpost mounting adapter which included it's own compound slide. I didn't spend time looking to see if Chuck's old post is archived, but maybe someone can find it.
> 
> With respect to your inventiveness and no ill intended,
> 
> --ShopShoe


That's why I put 3 bolts or screws in the spot.  I thot the same.  I was thimpfking of doing this because sometimes I just want a few quick little items milled and don't want to go thru the trouble of taking off the compound.  This probably won't ever get built.  Frankly I don't like the way it's geometry is.  If I could do a better version, it might get built.  I thimpfk it is clumsy and poorly concieved.  However, I have not given up yet.  I'm thimpfking something much smaller would be good.


----------



## Richard Hed

I found this in Michigan.  Someone near might be interested:









						55" x 31" x 61"H 30-Drawer Cabinet
					

Lot 344 at Complete CNC & Conventional Machine Shop (Leading Indexable Tooling Manufacturer) from Integra Asset Solutions.




					www.bidspotter.com


----------



## Steamchick

A bit far from the UK for postage I think.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> A bit far from the UK for postage I think.
> K2


Yes, I said 'near' meaning near Michigan.


----------



## Richard Hed

Anybody in Washington State interested in an Auction in Everett?  here it is:









						Lot of Right Angle Blocks ; Challenge 5"x8"x4-1/2"; 12"x9"x16"; 6"x8"x10", with 5"x2"x4" V-Block
					

Lot 276 at Assets Surplus to the Ongoing Operations of Wipro Givon USA, Inc. from Maynards Industries USA LLC.




					www.bidspotter.com
				




There's some good stuff here and auctions in our area are quite rare.  Shipping is usually what stops me from bidding in other areas but I can drive to Everett even tho' it is about 250 miles for me. 

Some of the tooling--mostly mill ends-- are too many for me.  I'm wondering if anyone is interested in splitting the costs for anything?  There is a whole shoot-load of Kurts.  I think this aerospace company is getting rid of it's old tooling and getting CNCs.  Good time to pick up something if you can afford it.

Oh, sorry, I put in a link address that was for right angle blocks but you can find the general address by cliking a link somewhere in the page.


----------



## Zeb

Oooh. I want to do a museum of flight roadtrip and tool sidequest. If the weather wasn't so slushy over the pass. 
Another soviэt experience for another day I guess.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Oooh. I want to do a museum of flight roadtrip and tool sidequest. If the weather wasn't so slushy over the pass.
> Another soviэt experience for another day I guess.


Yesd, I suppose the 4th of July is scary enough to slide over the side.  We had rain freeze on the ground yesterday so VERY slick.  Where in Montana?


----------



## Richard Hed

Someone might be interested in this bridgeport mill spacer:  Bridgeport 4" Column Riser Under (1) Table

So far there are NO bids.  It's in Michigan


----------



## Zeb

Richard Hed said:


> Yesd, I suppose the 4th of July is scary enough to slide over the side.  We had rain freeze on the ground yesterday so VERY slick.  Where in Montana?


I live in a terrible, frightening place. It is like Iceland and very UNLIKE Greenland. It snows a lot -grizzlies everywhere. Folks from out of state take note!


----------



## ajoeiam

Zeb said:


> I live in a terrible, frightening place. It is like Iceland and very UNLIKE Greenland. It snows a lot -grizzlies everywhere. Folks from out of state take note!


Rotflmho 

Hmmmmmmmmmm - - - and you're not even 'north' yet!!!!!!!!!!!  (LOL some more)

(Wondering how many of those grizzlies are bipedal?)


----------



## Zeb

ajoeiam said:


> (Wondering how many of those grizzlies are bipedal?)


Thankfully, still the kind with bells and spray cans in their scat.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Thankfully, still the kind with bells and spray cans in their scat.


How about tennis shoes?


----------



## Zeb

Richard Hed said:


> How about tennis shoes?


Oddly, only the occasional hunting boot. Maybe those with tennis shoes run the fastest in a group. They always say, "Never hike alone".


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Oddly, only the occasional hunting boot. Maybe those with tennis shoes run the fastest in a group. They always say, "Never hike alone".


20 years ago (before I was born) a co-worker moved to Alaska.  An unusually large Kodiak was killed by game wardens, what reason I do not know.  The bear had a head 3' across and from hind foot to shoulder was twelve feet.  they cut the bear open to see what it was eating.  Two tennis shoes and some bones.  True story.


----------



## Zeb

I've had several run ins with bears and have a friend that survived a mauling from a griz.

One of the times, I did run into a cub while jogging. I had imagery of being eaten by the mother, but nowhere in sight. Maybe sneakers are the _recipe_ for disaster...but not that day.  

Speaking of which, I gonna get a tree permit, go to the woods and cut me a Christmas tree. I won't wear adidas today, so I should be good.


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> I've had several run ins with bears and have a friend that survived a mauling from a griz.
> 
> One of the times, I did run into a cub while jogging. I had imagery of being eaten by the mother, but nowhere in sight. Maybe sneakers are the _recipe_ for disaster...but not that day.
> 
> Speaking of which, I gonna get a tree permit, go to the woods and cut me a Christmas tree. I won't wear adidas today, so I should be good.


Well, since Montana is a good state for gunz, you should never be in a place without one.  In Washington we mostly have black bears.


----------



## Tug40

It seems (at least in the U.S.) you are more likely to be killed at a school or while shopping than by a bear.
Am I allowed to say that?


----------



## Zeb

Tug40 said:


> Am I allowed to say that?


Why certainly! I feel strongly both ways. One of the safest places I've ever been is likely here. The most dangerous probably Jo-burg. Both have vast quantities of pew pews, but differing cultures for sure. Maybe community has somethinkpf to do with it.

Now, when it comes to experimental flash steam and CAD products, we shall have sharp, passionate disagreements. For that is what we're here to do. Along with laughing now and then...


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Why certainly! I feel strongly both ways. One of the safest places I've ever been is likely here. The most dangerous probably Jo-burg. Both have vast quantities of pew pews, but differing cultures for sure. Maybe community has somethinkpf to do with it.
> 
> Now, when it comes to experimental flash steam and CAD products, we shall have sharp, passionate disagreements. For that is what we're here to do. Along with laughing now and then...


Haw Haa haa LOL


----------



## Jeffro

Best you stay away from Australia if that easily scared. 

Legendary "Drop Bears"    "thylarctos plummetus"


----------



## ajoeiam

Jeffro said:


> Best you stay away from Australia if that easily scared.
> 
> Legendary "Drop Bears"    "thylarctos plummetus"
> 
> 
> View attachment 142499


laughing uproariously!!! (dunno no short form of that one!!!!!!!!!!)


----------



## Richard Hed

They look tasty.  Do they make nice slippers as well?


----------



## Zeb

Richard Hed said:


> They look tasty.  Do they make nice slippers as well?


Bear meat in in the fall here is huckleberry scented. You can almost see it. Spring bear not so tasty but make excellent slippers.
Now eucalyptus scented...that would be interesting.

I'd make sure to cook out the trichinosis. It hear it kind of doesn't go away. Ask Rinella about trichinella.


----------



## Zeb

I did some personal reflection today. When it comes to building model engines, I think I'm definitely the personality on the right.


----------



## Jeffro

*Oh NO. 
Now the nasty blighters are going to "bait the drop zone"*


----------



## Richard Hed

Jeffro said:


> *Oh NO.
> Now the nasty blighters are going to "bait the drop zone"*
> 
> View attachment 142771


Eucalyptus scented milk?


----------



## Richard Hed

Ladies and Scholars,
Today, I had a lucky break, at least so far it has been lucky.  When I managed to win the bid for a very low price on a 2HP Bridgeport, the sellers said it had something wrong with the head.  (It was the shipping that kilt me.)  Afterr watching many vids on takking the heads apart, I decided it would be easier to take the head apart than to take an engine out of an automobile.  So today, my son and I managed to disassemble the motor.  It was fairly easy (MUCH easier than taking an engine out of a car) and guess what we found.  Have you guessed yet?

When I had turned the power on, there was a terribly loud rattling and I switched it off instantly.  There happens to be a key on the shaft that is backed by some type of plastic.  The plastic was in two parts, the key was worn away in a really strange looking twist and the screw was nowhere to be found.  

So LUCKY DAy--isn't there a song about that?  While I have the thing apart, I will check the bearings and all the other parts to make sure they are good, clean it well and maybe change the belts.  

So . . . does anyone have any suggestions while I have it disassembled?  I'm wondering if I could replace that key with an all metal one.  It seems to me that a plastic backing must have had a reason but to me I thimpfk it is unreasonable.


----------



## Richard Hed

Ah, here is the part:




it cost 18$--only worth 2$ if even that.  Notice the key itself has a screw hole in it, that broke in half on my machine--the wall of the screw hole is very thin, I imagine they break all the time which means it is a poorly engineered part.  Does anyone know why they put that plastic slip in there?


----------



## Zeb

It's been over ten years since I've run a bridgeport, but I was always nervous about crashing the spindle feed when boring. Is that what this is a part of? I would expect plastic to be a good idea if this is part of the quill feed.


----------



## Sprocket

You might find a lot of answers in something like this:
.A Guide to Renovating the Bridgeport Series 1 "J" Head Milling Machine
I bought this recently and haven't done more than leaf through it, but it has a lot of info. I figure mine will need bearings in the not too distant future.
Doug


----------



## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> It's been over ten years since I've run a bridgeport, but I was always nervous about crashing the spindle feed when boring. Is that what this is a part of? I would expect plastic to be a good idea if this is part of the quill feed.


Sorry.  After reading what I wrote, I realized that I was vague on where that key is.  It is on the motor rotor in the section that turns the variable pulley.  There is a stiff spring at that end pushing the two halves of the pulley together and on the end of the spring is a herky disk keeper.  the disk has two holes in it to enable maintenance to screw the spring down tight, remove a c-clip and then back out the disk and spring to release it carefully.  

I have removed a bearing and bearing houseing from the top of the spindle.  The bearing spins freely but is very dry and a bit rough--not excessivly rough, just more than I would expect.  But the dryness is what makes me wonder.  I thimpfk I will be sure to replace this bearing and tomorrow, I hope to check some more stuff on it.

In looking at prices for some of these parts, I found absurd prices.  Many things that are aftermarket and very cheap even when good quality.  Real prices are about a quarter of what the thieves wanted for theirs, and some were as much as a tenth.  Can you believe 18$ for that key and the plastic piece that goes with it?  Sheesh.


----------



## Richard Hed

Ho, Friends.  I went to a place in ML called Columbia Bearing today.  The bearing I need is 53$.  I was hoping for a little less so checkt NAPA.  the three prices at NAPA were 164$, 103$ and 104$.  Wonder which one I should buy?  LOL.  The one at Columbia was made in Turkey.  It is sort of amazing to me that there are at least three places in Eurp (or is that Yurp?) that have surprizingly good quality at great prices:  Hungary., Poland and Turkey.  , So when I am hungry I look for polish turkey.  

The odd thing about Columbia Bearing is that they don't take cash--card only!  And if one doesn't have an account with them, which I don't there is a minimum charge of 50$.  I thot that that was sort of bad business practice, however, being unbearable bearing salespeople is not what they are doing, I'm sure that they generally deal with very large orders and expensive items that the average joe just isn't in the market for.  I still find it strange however as that would mean that small walk-in customers are prohibited from buying.  Strange.


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> Ho, Friends.  I went to a place in ML called Columbia Bearing today.  The bearing I need is 53$.  I was hoping for a little less so checkt NAPA.  the three prices at NAPA were 164$, 103$ and 104$.  Wonder which one I should buy?  LOL.  The one at Columbia was made in Turkey.  It is sort of amazing to me that there are at least three places in Eurp (or is that Yurp?) that have surprizingly good quality at great prices:  Hungary., Poland and Turkey.  , So when I am hungry I look for polish turkey.
> 
> The odd thing about Columbia Bearing is that they don't take cash--card only!  And if one doesn't have an account with them, which I don't there is a minimum charge of 50$.  I thot that that was sort of bad business practice, however, being unbearable bearing salespeople is not what they are doing, I'm sure that they generally deal with very large orders and expensive items that the average joe just isn't in the market for.  I still find it strange however as that would mean that small walk-in customers are prohibited from buying.  Strange.


By forcing the use of a credit card they learn a LOT more about you! 

Its all about control and control and control and . . .


----------



## Zeb

Over 20 years ago there was a tinfoil debate over Timken (?) bearings on aircraft purchased at any local Brown Bearing. The "FAA approved" box was exponentially more expensive, but they came off the same production line under the same physical standard. Have to pay lawyers and bookkeeping to support paperwork weighing the same as the product!


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## RM-MN

Richard Hed said:


> The bearing I need is 53$. I was hoping for a little less so checkt NAPA. the three prices at NAPA were 164$, 103$ and 104$.





Zeb said:


> Over 20 years ago there was a tinfoil debate over Timken (?) bearings on aircraft purchased at any local Brown Bearing. The "FAA approved" box was exponentially more expensive, but they came off the same production line under the same physical standard. Have to pay lawyers and bookkeeping to support paperwork weighing the same as the product!


Those two quotations is why I buy my farm equipment bearings off Ebay.  I don't need aircraft certified quality and I don't need to pay the counterman at Napa (the one who can't find the bearing I need anyway).  I simply use the bearing number if it is still visible or the OD, ID, thickness and seal type.  It also lets me do the order on my free time and without the 40 mile round trip to town plus waiting for a counterman to notice me.


----------



## Richard Hed

RM-MN said:


> Those two quotations is why I buy my farm equipment bearings off Ebay.  I don't need aircraft certified quality and I don't need to pay the counterman at Napa (the one who can't find the bearing I need anyway).  I simply use the bearing number if it is still visible or the OD, ID, thickness and seal type.  It also lets me do the order on my free time and without the 40 mile round trip to town plus waiting for a counterman to notice me.


yUp, 40 round trip is certainly a show stopper for a silly bearing.  I only have about 1-1/2 miles one way.    I also bought a 3/8 key stock section, 12".  It was solid steel.  the NAPA equivalent had some kind of coating on it.  I prefer the non-coated


----------



## Richard Hed

has anyone come up with a reason the motor key has that plastic key with a smaller metal peice in the middle?  It only makes sense if the plastic is to reduce shock on start up or maybe reduce vibration  but, to me, neither is really a good reason.

Ah, was just examining the mechanism--turns out the key slides as the pulley expands.  Mystery solved, but now I REALLY don't like it.  Will have to make a piece that self lubricates, can take the pressures involved and won't break with that hole in it.  I have some stuff that may work.  Hmmm.


----------



## Richard Hed

Ladies and Scholars:
I have a fun problem that I dread starting, so I thot maybe y'all could make some suggestions.

This Bridgeport motor shaft has been damaged.  Maybe I tol' y'all about it earlier, that I was commplaining about a plastic key having broken, the metal key put in the middle of it being completely destroyed and the screw nowhere to be found.  I've completely disassebled the head and that screw is STILL nowhere to be found.  

Well, here is the result of the destruction as far as the motor shaft goes.

The one photo makes it look like it actually has a crack in it,  Will take a closer look at that--hard to see with naked eye.

besides completely replacing this or the motor, I thimpfks there may be three or more possible solutions:  epoxy (not my favorite idea), metal bond (never had any experience with it), Brazing (might work), and TIGging, This last one is my favorite, however, I'm thimpfking that might get the shaft too hot.  Any ideas?


----------



## Richard Hed

After building this up some way, naturally, there will be a lot of filing.


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## Richard Hed

Well, after a careful examination, there is no crack, just looks like it in that photo.  My son suggests putting a piece of ceramic backing in keyway and TIGging it.  MIght work if I can find a piece of ceramic that would fit in it.  I thimpfks his other suggestion is better, just tig it then use a dremel on it..

I'll have to clean that really well, no matter what I do, so acetone?


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> Ladies and Scholars:
> I have a fun problem that I dread starting, so I thot maybe y'all could make some suggestions.
> 
> This Bridgeport motor shaft has been damaged.  Maybe I tol' y'all about it earlier, that I was commplaining about a plastic key having broken, the metal key put in the middle of it being completely destroyed and the screw nowhere to be found.  I've completely disassebled the head and that screw is STILL nowhere to be found.
> 
> Well, here is the result of the destruction as far as the motor shaft goes.
> 
> The one photo makes it look like it actually has a crack in it,  Will take a closer look at that--hard to see with naked eye.
> 
> besides completely replacing this or the motor, I thimpfks there may be three or more possible solutions:  epoxy (not my favorite idea), metal bond (never had any experience with it), Brazing (might work), and TIGging, This last one is my favorite, however, I'm thimpfking that might get the shaft too hot.  Any ideas?


Well - - - I've done this more than once or twice - - - but its not a lot of fun and if done well - - - you can have almost a new shaft. 
1. take apart totally 
2. check for straightness (quite important) 
3. I welded up the shaft using either sick or mig but in the round so there's like a snake around the shaft 
       (Don't need tig unless you're already comfortable with it!)
   You need to weld hot enough so that there is NO porosity in the weld and that you have good adhesion to the shaft! 
      (using mig keep your volts up! - - - you're looking for a strong sound weld not necessarily a beautiful one!) 
   I would suggest welding right through the keyway - - - much easier than trying to get a good weld, the right amount of build up and not touch the keyway.
   You might need to put the shaft down a couple times in the welding - - - -you do NOT want the shaft to be red hot at the end of the welding. 
      (At least imo anyway!)
4. let the shaft cool slowly 
    (putting it into a roll of insulation works, putting it into DRY sand works - - - you want slow cooling!)
       (minimizes change - - - I'm assuming the shaft is a better quality steel than 1018 or similar)
5. machine the shaft in your lathe (filing would take forever!!!!) 
6. machine the keyway clean
7. assuming you've done a good good machining - - - time to re-assemble (check for straightness unless you've done it earlier - - - should be good!)
   I'd almost want to use new bearings but that's not necessarily important - - - - depends upon what the chancellor of the exchequer says (grin!) 
8. you should be good to go 

(That should be a good part of a day's job doing it but when you're done - - - unless you tell them it shouldn't be easy to see the fix!) 

HTH


----------



## ajoeiam

ajoeiam said:


> Well - - - I've done this more than once or twice - - - but its not a lot of fun and if done well - - - you can have almost a new shaft.
> 1. take apart totally
> 2. check for straightness (quite important)
> 3. I welded up the shaft using either sick or mig but in the round so there's like a snake around the shaft
> (Don't need tig unless you're already comfortable with it!)
> You need to weld hot enough so that there is NO porosity in the weld and that you have good adhesion to the shaft!
> (using mig keep your volts up! - - - you're looking for a strong sound weld not necessarily a beautiful one!)
> I would suggest welding right through the keyway - - - much easier than trying to get a good weld, the right amount of build up and not touch the keyway.
> You might need to put the shaft down a couple times in the welding - - - -you do NOT want the shaft to be red hot at the end of the welding.
> (At least imo anyway!)
> 4. let the shaft cool slowly
> (putting it into a roll of insulation works, putting it into DRY sand works - - - you want slow cooling!)
> (minimizes change - - - I'm assuming the shaft is a better quality steel than 1018 or similar)
> 5. machine the shaft in your lathe (filing would take forever!!!!)
> 6. machine the keyway clean
> 7. assuming you've done a good good machining - - - time to re-assemble (check for straightness unless you've done it earlier - - - should be good!)
> I'd almost want to use new bearings but that's not necessarily important - - - - depends upon what the chancellor of the exchequer says (grin!)
> 8. you should be good to go
> 
> (That should be a good part of a day's job doing it but when you're done - - - unless you tell them it shouldn't be easy to see the fix!)
> 
> HTH


#2 should be stick NOT sick!  (edit didn't want to work!!! - - - - argh!)


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> #2 should be stick NOT sick!  (edit didn't want to work!!! - - - - argh!)


Yeah, I got that.  Well stick is out.  Would NOT use stick.  Never thot of MIG, however, even so, it seems to me that there is much more precise control with TIG.  When you say you weld round it like a snake, that could mean a couple things.  Could you explain more or draw a picture?

Thanx for the "red-hot" precaution and also for the "cool down" technique.  ONe of my big worries is that no matter what technique is used, it is going to warp the thing.  You say you done this a few times?  

I will have to file it as this is the only mill I have, it would be like giving yourself brain surgery, not very easy.  It will take me more than a day.


----------



## Tug40

i know you said stick is out.
but, I would use this process rather than mig.
even ER60 mig is hard to machine or file.
7018 or even 6013 would be my preference (I know nothing about TIG so cannot commen on that) but a number of short stick welds over a time period so shaft wouldn’t get too hot. And it would be machineable or fileable or carbide burr able.
that’s all I got, good luck with whatever you do.


----------



## Richard Hed

Tug40 said:


> i know you said stick is out.
> but, I would use this process rather than mig.
> even ER60 mig is hard to machine or file.
> 7018 or even 6013 would be my preference (I know nothing about TIG so cannot commen on that) but a number of short stick welds over a time period so shaft wouldn’t get too hot. And it would be machineable or fileable or carbide burr able.
> that’s all I got, good luck with whatever you do.


i thimpks stick has too much slag probs, however one could break off thecovering and use that for the filler with TIG.  I know one fella who did that, forget why but he seemed pretty confident.

In the meantime I have discovered the cast iron pulley that fits on the spindle also has a nasty gouge.  This is on the INSIDE which makes it more difficult to weld.  Have you ever welded CI?  I'm thimpfking this is definitely a weird job for TIG, however, I am not sure one can TIG cast.  I woujld thimpfk one could but not sure.  Weld maybe half an inch, then allow it to cool--can't pein inside that little hole


----------



## Toymaker

Richard Hed said:


> Ladies and Scholars:
> I have a fun problem that I dread starting, so I thot maybe y'all could make some suggestions.
> 
> This Bridgeport motor shaft has been damaged.  Maybe I tol' y'all about it earlier, that I was commplaining about a plastic key having broken, the metal key put in the middle of it being completely destroyed and the screw nowhere to be found.  I've completely disassebled the head and that screw is STILL nowhere to be found.
> 
> Well, here is the result of the destruction as far as the motor shaft goes.
> 
> The one photo makes it look like it actually has a crack in it,  Will take a closer look at that--hard to see with naked eye.
> 
> besides completely replacing this or the motor, I thimpfks there may be three or more possible solutions:  epoxy (not my favorite idea), metal bond (never had any experience with it), Brazing (might work), and TIGging, This last one is my favorite, however, I'm thimpfking that might get the shaft too hot.  Any ideas?



Have you considered LASER welding it?  From my reading, I understand it produces much less heat in the base metal, which means less chance of warping your shaft.  One of my machine shop friends here in Thailand loves it, he posted this video on his FB page:  *Laser Weldler*


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## Richard Hed

Toymaker said:


> Have you considered LASER welding it?  From my reading, I understand it produces much less heat in the base metal, which means less chance of warping your shaft.  One of my machine shop friends here in Thailand loves it, he posted this video on his FB page:  *Laser Weldler*


That's really nice, but I don't have one of those.  Thailand is too far to ship and return too.


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## Steamchick

Hi Richard, In my (small and limited)experience, you should (SIF-) Bronze braze cast-iron pulleys that have cracked. Not sure about the "SIF" alloy, in case that has Cadmium in it, just use a "regular" brazing rod with the correct flux. (Flux the job well from cold and you get a really clean metal for the braze to "take" to).
Also for a steel shaft I would use stick - as I know some people are adverse to the slag, but professional welders get on with it and it really is a good solution to getting the right alloy rods and enough heat into the weld for good penetration.  Or MIG.
One job I was on, we were MIG welding 1/2" welds in aluminium (joining 4" and 6" thick bars) and 5mm and 6mm rods onto cast steel components. - The welding Engineer had specified the size, material and current for the Rods (stick), not MIG, for the power needed for the size of weld penetration. I don't think TIG goes anywhere near that size of weld (Current), not that you will either. Slag removal should not be a problem, just time and care, which I know to be a good part of all your work.
Is it not easier to start with a new piece of steel and machine a new part?
Alternatively, instead of welding (are you just in need of repairing a gouged bit of shaft?) you may be able to braze fill the "bruise" cavities with the bronze - which should really minimise distortion compared to welding. How deep are the "bruises"?
A temporary repair may be a good quality epoxy "metal mender" (one of the filled resins, not clear liquid!), I am a bit vague... is the shaft just bruised so you need to fill less than 0.1" of cavity? Maybe a temporary repair will get the lathe fixed so you can use it to make a new shaft from scratch?
Or perhaps another "local" Engineer can make you one? ( I am in the UK, 8 miles from the original Washington, so just too far to drive to your Washington!).
Sorry I don't have any clever ideas, but Bronze brazing is my preferred method for many things, as it heats the whole job and minimises distortion on many repairs, especially on cast iron. Or you end-up heating the cast iron red hot before welding.... (and no advantage over brazing, except when repairing gear teeth).
Cheers,
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard, In my (small and limited)experience, you should (SIF-) Bronze braze cast-iron pulleys that have cracked. Not sure about the "SIF" alloy, in case that has Cadmium in it, just use a "regular" brazing rod with the correct flux. (Flux the job well from cold and you get a really clean metal for the braze to "take" to).
> Also for a steel shaft I would use stick - as I know some people are adverse to the slag, but professional welders get on with it and it really is a good solution to getting the right alloy rods and enough heat into the weld for good penetration.  Or MIG.
> One job I was on, we were MIG welding 1/2" welds in aluminium (joining 4" and 6" thick bars) and 5mm and 6mm rods onto cast steel components. - The welding Engineer had specified the size, material and current for the Rods (stick), not MIG, for the power needed for the size of weld penetration. I don't think TIG goes anywhere near that size of weld (Current), not that you will either. Slag removal should not be a problem, just time and care, which I know to be a good part of all your work.
> Is it not easier to start with a new piece of steel and machine a new part?
> Alternatively, instead of welding (are you just in need of repairing a gouged bit of shaft?) you may be able to braze fill the "bruise" cavities with the bronze - which should really minimise distortion compared to welding. How deep are the "bruises"?
> A temporary repair may be a good quality epoxy "metal mender" (one of the filled resins, not clear liquid!), I am a bit vague... is the shaft just bruised so you need to fill less than 0.1" of cavity? Maybe a temporary repair will get the lathe fixed so you can use it to make a new shaft from scratch?
> Or perhaps another "local" Engineer can make you one? ( I am in the UK, 8 miles from the original Washington, so just too far to drive to your Washington!).
> Sorry I don't have any clever ideas, but Bronze brazing is my preferred method for many things, as it heats the whole job and minimises distortion on many repairs, especially on cast iron. Or you end-up heating the cast iron red hot before welding.... (and no advantage over brazing, except when repairing gear teeth).
> Cheers,
> K2


I thimpfk brazing may be a great repair for the cast iron part but not so sure about the motor rotor.  The rotor has all that magnetic steel on it so not going to try to make a new one.  As for the gouges size, try to judge that from the photo and my hand size.  I thimpfk that brazing might be good on the steel shaft also as long as the "system" has no mishaps like the first one.  The gouge is about an 1/8th" deep on one end, and tapers off.  Since I have no history of what happened to this engine, I can only surmise by what I see.  

What I have seen is the ways seem fine, the surface of the mill is fine but the grease inside the bullgear was  . . . gone!  Used up, a small remainder was there, of course but none in contact with the gears.   How this grease disappeared, I'd like to know--maybe someone had it apart and didn't replace the grease. The bearings on the shafts are dry (remember these are 6010 2rs bearings, sealed on both sides) but a bit rough.  If I had to, I could put it back in, tho' not a good idea since I know it's bad.

So it looks like the mill was basically used well, that is, basically taken care of and not bruted--it had a lot of aluminum chips in it but maybe a novice had been using it and failed to oil/greese it and/or notice that it was noisy or not keeping tight cuts.  Frankly, this is only conjecture, I really don't have a clue as to how it was treated, just that most likely the parts workt loose and broke, then twisted around and the small metal insert key (this is a two part key with plastic and an embedded metal part) workt it's way around and finally failed completely.  Tomorro I will try to remember to dig out the key and photo it--very funni twist.  ha ha.  I was watching utub repair vids and there seems to be quite a lot of these plastic keys failing.  The screw hole makes a weak spot that the designers apparently don't understand.  Frankly, I'm surprized these don't fail in less than a week.


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> Yeah, I got that.  Well stick is out.  Would NOT use stick.  Never thot of MIG, however, even so, it seems to me that there is much more precise control with TIG.  When you say you weld round it like a snake, that could mean a couple things.  Could you explain more or draw a picture?
> 
> Thanx for the "red-hot" precaution and also for the "cool down" technique.  ONe of my big worries is that no matter what technique is used, it is going to warp the thing.  You say you done this a few times?
> 
> I will have to file it as this is the only mill I have, it would be like giving yourself brain surgery, not very easy.  It will take me more than a day.


Ja - - - tig control is more precise - - - - but you're just laying down metal and unless you're pretty good at tig mig is a LOT faster. 

Snake - - - think like a spring - - - you know round and round we go - - - - like winding a spring. 

Well - - - the red hot - - - - its easy to do on a smaller shaft - - - say under 1.5" dia - - - harder on a 2.5 or 3". 

Warping happens much more easily is you shock cool something. 
Shock cooling is a great tool when you're trying to straighten something that's been badly warped/bent but you don't want that here. 

You don't have a lathe? 

I said to use a lathe to turn it round. 

I'd bet you're thinking of the keyway - - - - well then you will need to file the keyway true. 
That's still a heap less filing than putting some material on the surface in spots and trying to file the thing clean and hoping you haven't increased any warpage in the shaft.


----------



## ajoeiam

Tug40 said:


> i know you said stick is out.
> but, I would use this process rather than mig.
> even ER60 mig is hard to machine or file.
> 7018 or even 6013 would be my preference (I know nothing about TIG so cannot commen on that) but a number of short stick welds over a time period so shaft wouldn’t get too hot. And it would be machineable or fileable or carbide burr able.
> that’s all I got, good luck with whatever you do.


I find 6013 to be a rod that is very difficult to not get slag inclusions on. 
In the trade it is called 'farmer rod'. 
You get a beautiful looking weld that is all too often not terribly strong. (You want penetration and 6013 is light on that unless your heat is way up there!)
I would use 6011 (buzz box) or 6010 DC long before I would use 6013. 
If you want beautiful welds - - - well work with the 7018 a bit more - - - at least then you have a fighting chance for enough strength! 

I didn't even think of using a air grinder driven burr for cleaning out the keyway - - - LOL - - - that would make it quite easy. 
(Air grinders can be quite hard on the hands in these kind of functions - - - not saying anything about their use - - - just pitching out a warning so it doesn't hand someone RSI because they over did it!)


----------



## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> i thimpks stick has too much slag probs, however one could break off thecovering and use that for the filler with TIG.  I know one fella who did that, forget why but he seemed pretty confident.
> 
> In the meantime I have discovered the cast iron pulley that fits on the spindle also has a nasty gouge.  This is on the INSIDE which makes it more difficult to weld.  Have you ever welded CI?  I'm thimpfking this is definitely a weird job for TIG, however, I am not sure one can TIG cast.  I woujld thimpfk one could but not sure.  Weld maybe half an inch, then allow it to cool--can't pein inside that little hole


IMO repairing a small bore is better done by machining the bore larger and inserting a sleeve. 
If you want a very strong way of doing that - - - 
1. machine bore to some at least 1/4" larger radius than the hole. 
2. machine a plug and make it to about 0.0005 to 0.001" bigger in OD than the ID of the enlarged hole. 
3. if worried about holding drill 3 - 3/16" holes at close to 120 degree spacing in the interface between the plug and the pulley hole. 
3a. drive in 3/16" pins and mushroom the ends 
4. now machine the bore 
5. you have a true strong and accurate fix (should be good for the klife of the machine if there aren't some other flaws somewhere else that cause things to go kittywumpus again. 

Its not a strong to make a very thin sleeve and the take only a wee bit off the bore but that's also a possibility. 

With tig - - - cast iron - - - well best is a piece of the original and away you go. (that's how they fix piano frames - - - grin!)


----------



## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Ja - - - tig control is more precise - - - - but you're just laying down metal and unless you're pretty good at tig mig is a LOT faster.
> 
> Snake - - - think like a spring - - - you know round and round we go - - - - like winding a spring.
> 
> Well - - - the red hot - - - - its easy to do on a smaller shaft - - - say under 1.5" dia - - - harder on a 2.5 or 3".
> 
> Warping happens much more easily is you shock cool something.
> Shock cooling is a great tool when you're trying to straighten something that's been badly warped/bent but you don't want that here.
> 
> You don't have a lathe?
> 
> I said to use a lathe to turn it round.
> 
> I'd bet you're thinking of the keyway - - - - well then you will need to file the keyway true.
> That's still a heap less filing than putting some material on the surface in spots and trying to file the thing clean and hoping you haven't increased any warpage in the shaft.


Yes, turn it round on the lathe--no problem.  I was thimpfking of cutting the slot--not possible if the mill is operating on it's own parts.


----------



## Steamchick

Hi Richard,
Sometimes it is possible to re-configure the mounting of the part and tool - such as setting the shaft on V-blocks clamped on the cross-slide, using a DTI in the chuck so you get it perfectly square to the rotation axis of the lathe main-shaft, and fitting the milling cutter in the chuck/collet on the lathe main-shaft? Shimmed up  to adjust the height of the workpiece adjusts the side-cut of the tool in one plane, depth of cut is by moving the saddle, and length of cut (keyway) is using the cross-slide? But it really depends on size of lathe versus shaft as to whether you can set-it up.
Or a trip to your mate "down the road"...? (I have lots of useless suggestions that my imagination can explore).
K2


----------



## Steamchick

Ajoeiam, re post #245: Distortion after welding is usually a combination of the size/stiffness of the parent part, and the amount of weld and heat input. 
Simply: The weld is molten, so when it "freezes" and becomes attached to the already "frozen" parent metal, it is cooling from a state that is hotter than the parent metal. The differential contraction as parent metal and weld metal cool cause internal stresses at the weld interface... and if great enough to distort the parent metal it is these stresses that cause distortion. Uneven cooling can make that condition worse, as we tend to cool parts with quenching "the far end" of the part, but this can cool the parent metal faster than the weld and exacerbate a problem that is inherent in the welding process. Pre-heating and normalising are simply ways to reduce weld stresses, thus reducing distortion. But microscopically, all weld repairs distort parent metal because we lay and bond molten metal onto cooler "frozen" metal. It is just that we can get away with some very small distortion when it is so small it is within tolerance.
K2


----------



## Richard Hed

Steamchick said:


> Ajoeiam, re post #245: Distortion after welding is usually a combination of the size/stiffness of the parent part, and the amount of weld and heat input.
> Simply: The weld is molten, so when it "freezes" and becomes attached to the already "frozen" parent metal, it is cooling from a state that is hotter than the parent metal. The differential contraction as parent metal and weld metal cool cause internal stresses at the weld interface... and if great enough to distort the parent metal it is these stresses that cause distortion. Uneven cooling can make that condition worse, as we tend to cool parts with quenching "the far end" of the part, but this can cool the parent metal faster than the weld and exacerbate a problem that is inherent in the welding process. Pre-heating and normalising are simply ways to reduce weld stresses, thus reducing distortion. But microscopically, all weld repairs distort parent metal because we lay and bond molten metal onto cooler "frozen" metal. It is just that we can get away with some very small distortion when it is so small it is within tolerance.
> K2


That's a great idea to use the lathe as a mill to cut the keyway.  

I was thimpfking there might be several ways to reduce the heat distortion.  One wojuld be to pein it, usually done on cast iron, however, it may actually work on steel but I don't know for sure.  Another way would be to make very short welds, allow to partially cool before making another.   and continue like that till the weld area is very shallow.  It is already shallow, at the deep end it is only about 1/8th" deep but less than that wide. and it all narrows down in about an inchand a half.  Truthfully, I am not familiar with these types of things.  When I weld it is for structures.  

I'm thimpfking that a combo of these things might be the way to go, and also that the weld area itself might be small enough to not be too serious.  Any ideas?


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## Steamchick

Hi Richard,
Yes, I was expecting the grooves to be filled as shallow and narrow. So I would use my brazing hearth and blow-torch and bronze filler rod to fill the grooves. Then allow to cool slowly... I assume the steel shaft for repair is not heat treated, just a "good steel" as it will have been a ground finish as new.
Distortion should be minimal, as steel contraction of the shaft versus the thin section of bronze will not have a lot of residual stresses (different coefficients of expansion). I think filling with bronze is practical as the damage is shallow, so not affecting the machine's strength significantly. Even silver solder should work, just not so hard in service if the shaft has things rubbing on it - like plain bearings? Which is why I suggest a Bronze brazing rod filler.
Alternatively, grind out the groove to a uniform "Vee""-ish shape so a single uniform weld the full length will fill the groove in one pass. Then the only slag will be on the surface that will be machined or filed off. (if using stick welding. MIG has no slag). The amount of heat introduced will not be great. And relative stresses will be a weld of 1/8" approx triangle versus the original steel shaft steel cross section (thick walled tube?). so only a few % difference, so hardly any distortion?
I wish I was able to be there to help.
K2


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## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> That's a great idea to use the lathe as a mill to cut the keyway.
> 
> I was thimpfking there might be several ways to reduce the heat distortion.  One wojuld be to pein it, usually done on cast iron, however, it may actually work on steel but I don't know for sure.  Another way would be to make very short welds, allow to partially cool before making another.   and continue like that till the weld area is very shallow.  It is already shallow, at the deep end it is only about 1/8th" deep but less than that wide. and it all narrows down in about an inchand a half.  Truthfully, I am not familiar with these types of things.  When I weld it is for structures.
> 
> I'm thimpfking that a combo of these things might be the way to go, and also that the weld area itself might be small enough to not be too serious.  Any ideas?


Have not run into any specifications for peening much of anything except on cast iron. 
There are vibratory gizmos available for reducing the stress in weldments - - - dunno if any are rated for something this small - - - sorry. 
Using a decent welding procedure (welding round and round and working to keep slag inclusions LOW and the heat up (fusion to both the parent shaft and the other build up material) is usually enough to minimize any problems. 

Now if you insist on 1" long welds and spend a lot of time chipping in between - - - imo - - - you are far more likely to actually create issues but its your show - - - - the doing and the joys afterward are all 'yours'.


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## ajoeiam

Steamchick said:


> Hi Richard,


snip


Steamchick said:


> Which is why I suggest a Bronze brazing rod filler.
> Alternatively, grind out the groove to a uniform "Vee""-ish shape so a single uniform weld the full length will fill the groove in one pass. Then the only slag will be on the surface that will be machined or filed off. (if using stick welding. MIG has no slag). The amount of heat introduced will not be great. And relative stresses will be a weld of 1/8" approx triangle versus the original steel shaft steel cross section (thick walled tube?). so only a few % difference, so hardly any distortion?
> I wish I was able to be there to help.
> K2


If all you're comfortable with is brazing - - - - braze away. 
MIG has slag - - - - just not very much of it. 
Dunno about you but if I were using 3/32" welding rods I think I would have something like a 3/16" and maybe even a little closer to a 1/4"  fillet size - - - that is not large. 

Given the conversation - - - - it might be easier to just buy some 1045 T&G (turned and ground) to the size needed and then to machine in the keyway using the poor shaft and then do a switcheroo (you could also machine the keyway in the lathe - - - up to you!). 
Then you have no worries about HAZ or distortion or or or.


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## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Have not run into any specifications for peening much of anything except on cast iron.
> There are vibratory gizmos available for reducing the stress in weldments - - - dunno if any are rated for something this small - - - sorry.
> Using a decent welding procedure (welding round and round and working to keep slag inclusions LOW and the heat up (fusion to both the parent shaft and the other build up material) is usually enough to minimize any problems.
> 
> Now if you insist on 1" long welds and spend a lot of time chipping in between - - - imo - - - you are far more likely to actually create issues but its your show - - - - the doing and the joys afterward are all 'yours'.


On no account will I use stick welding.  MIG or TIG.  I keep wondering what you mean by round and round--is this the welding technique?


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## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> On no account will I use stick welding.  MIG or TIG.  I keep wondering what you mean by round and round--is this the welding technique?


Why not stick - - - - crap - - - its as easy peasy as eating pie!!!

Just mean that you are turning the shaft as you're welding it so the weld is a continuous spiral.
You only stop welding when your rod is too short or you are getting too hot or you can no longer turn the shaft.
(If rod is too short - - - hit the weld to knock off the flux drop in a new rod and git welding!)


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## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> Why not stick - - - - crap - - - its as easy peasy as eating pie!!!
> 
> Just mean that you are turning the shaft as you're welding it so the weld is a continuous spiral.
> You only stop welding when your rod is too short or you are getting too hot or you can no longer turn the shaft.
> (If rod is too short - - - hit the weld to knock off the flux drop in a new rod and git welding!)


That gouge is not as large as it looks in the photos--so going round and round would be putting a lot of metal on places it is definitely not needed.  It only needs some added metal in a slim spot on the edge of the keyway.  I am not willing to risk all that slag in the corners that I cannot get out and especially when it rattles loose in the machine when it is put back into service.

Yes, I agree with you about stick welding is easy peasy, but not for this particular job.  I am leaning towards
955 Aluminum Bronze​brazing which has all the needed characteristics of toughness, hardness, strength, and lubrication.  It also is a lower temperature to braze than to weld which I consider an important topic.

To wreck that engine keyway had to take a hell of a lot of energy.  I suspect it didn't happen all at once and that the operator did not know or notice the problem.  I do not know if it would make a noise in doing so, but I would suspect it would have noise of some kind or at least a different sound especially on startup and stopping.  I thimpfk that probably any solution would work, as there is not really that much at work here, it just needs to be accurately done and the slot finished correctly.  However, there is for certain, a "best" solution.  I'm leaning toward that 955 alum bronze.  Any suggestions?

I really thimpfk that the design of the key is terrible.  It is a 1/4" plastic holder with a 3/32 or so steel piece embedded in it.  All this has a screw hole in the middle to keep it together and centered in the sliding keyway.  this makes the walls at the screw hole extremely weak--bad design--and this is where it broke of course.  On utub there are lots of examples of this breaking at that point.  There must be a better solution.


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## ajoeiam

Richard Hed said:


> That gouge is not as large as it looks in the photos--so going round and round would be putting a lot of metal on places it is definitely not needed.  It only needs some added metal in a slim spot on the edge of the keyway.  I am not willing to risk all that slag in the corners that I cannot get out and especially when it rattles loose in the machine when it is put back into service.
> 
> Yes, I agree with you about stick welding is easy peasy, but not for this particular job.  I am leaning towards
> 955 Aluminum Bronze​brazing which has all the needed characteristics of toughness, hardness, strength, and lubrication.  It also is a lower temperature to braze than to weld which I consider an important topic.
> 
> To wreck that engine keyway had to take a hell of a lot of energy.  I suspect it didn't happen all at once and that the operator did not know or notice the problem.  I do not know if it would make a noise in doing so, but I would suspect it would have noise of some kind or at least a different sound especially on startup and stopping.  I thimpfk that probably any solution would work, as there is not really that much at work here, it just needs to be accurately done and the slot finished correctly.  However, there is for certain, a "best" solution.  I'm leaning toward that 955 alum bronze.  Any suggestions?




If all you do is fill the depressions using either brazing or tig or any other process - - - - I think you are most likely to introduce stresses into that shaft which are most likely to show up as distortion. 

If you are only intent on something like sticking a little something into the wrinkles - - - - I would use something like an epoxy or locktite had a green bushing 
retaining compound. Glop that on, install putting in a decent key and it will likely outlast your work needs. 

(I worked for an outfit where they even did ceramic infills - - - occasionally (IIRC) on rotors that were used at around the 8k rpm range. You might be surprised at how repairs are done even on some very high powered high load very high duty cycle equipment.) 

All the best in your fix.


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## Richard Hed

ajoeiam said:


> If all you do is fill the depressions using either brazing or tig or any other process - - - - I think you are most likely to introduce stresses into that shaft which are most likely to show up as distortion.
> 
> If you are only intent on something like sticking a little something into the wrinkles - - - - I would use something like an epoxy or locktite had a green bushing
> retaining compound. Glop that on, install putting in a decent key and it will likely outlast your work needs.
> 
> (I worked for an outfit where they even did ceramic infills - - - occasionally (IIRC) on rotors that were used at around the 8k rpm range. You might be surprised at how repairs are done even on some very high powered high load very high duty cycle equipment.)
> 
> All the best in your fix.


Yes, epoxy I considered briefly and I will reconsider it more now that you have told me about this stufff that is done in industry.  I thimpfk that almost any repair would work if fFI could solve that shitty engineering problem of the hole in the sliding key.  I saw one solution for a different placement in Bridgeports--not the motor section, but the pulley rotor at the other end of gthe head, in which a plastic (delrin or nylon or something strong but with good lube properties) in which a piece was machined to fit in the slot, however, a round tit was placed where the screw hole goes, all one piece.  this was then epoxied in for solid fit.  I'm considering this, however, since it is the power side, I am not so sure.  

As you say, tho', it will proabably out last me.  Even if it didn't keep for a long time, it might keep long enough, say a couple years, to simply replace it now an then.  taking the head apart is quite easy.  I compare that to removing an engine from a car, MUCH easier.   With plastic, it is not likely to rip holes in the metal like the last one did.  This part only has sideways thrust not up and down the keyway.  the only time there is any change in the keyway placement is when one is changing the speeds, and that will not create the kinds of forces that actual milling will create.

Just as an aside, I would thmpfk Bridgeport would be ashamed to make a part that breaks so easily.  It's almost as if they got a case of "planned obsolescence".


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## Richard Hed

Richard Hed said:


> Yes, epoxy I considered briefly and I will reconsider it more now that you have told me about this stufff that is done in industry.  I thimpfk that almost any repair would work if fFI could solve that shitty engineering problem of the hole in the sliding key.  I saw one solution for a different placement in Bridgeports--not the motor section, but the pulley rotor at the other end of gthe head, in which a plastic (delrin or nylon or something strong but with good lube properties) in which a piece was machined to fit in the slot, however, a round tit was placed where the screw hole goes, all one piece.  this was then epoxied in for solid fit.  I'm considering this, however, since it is the power side, I am not so sure.
> 
> As you say, tho', it will proabably out last me.  Even if it didn't keep for a long time, it might keep long enough, say a couple years, to simply replace it now an then.  taking the head apart is quite easy.  I compare that to removing an engine from a car, MUCH easier.   With plastic, it is not likely to rip holes in the metal like the last one did.  This part only has sideways thrust not up and down the keyway.  the only time there is any change in the keyway placement is when one is changing the speeds, and that will not create the kinds of forces that actual milling will create.
> 
> Just as an aside, I would thmpfk Bridgeport would be ashamed to make a part that breaks so easily.  It's almost as if they got a case of "planned obsolescence".


I'm curious what other people thimpfk about epoxy.  You probably can't see it well enough in the photos, but the gouge is slanted upwhard approx. 45deg.  That would make breaking forces that epoxy might not be able to hold.  What do you thmpfk?

Maybe with a small amount of undercutting, say with a dremel, it would hold better?


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## Zeb

Epoxy becomes brittle after reaching a certain thickness. Even the nasty Hysol stuff. 
If you zap it with a grinder, does it shoot a lot of sparks? Welding should do the trick. Brazing might if it don't get crashed again. It might have been good that the plastic part broke because Murphy will always want to look for the next opportune place.


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## Richard Hed

Zeb said:


> Epoxy becomes brittle after reaching a certain thickness. Even the nasty Hysol stuff.
> If you zap it with a grinder, does it shoot a lot of sparks? Welding should do the trick. Brazing might if it don't get crashed again. It might have been good that the plastic part broke because Murphy will always want to look for the next opportune place.


Thanx for that.  This is not very thick, only about an 8th at the thickest.


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