# Bates & Edmonds gas engine electric plant



## Rustkolector (Jan 8, 2016)

[FONT=&quot]This is my finished 25 hp Bates & Edmonds 17kw model electric plant in 1/8th scale. These unusual looking OHV engines used eccentrics and pull rods rather than cams and push rods. This valve arrangement was known as the alligator link valve motion. The full size engines used two built in adjusting features to time the valves. These same features could not be duplicated in the model at this scale, but other provisions were incorporated to make timing manageable. The eccentric and valve depressor lever over-travel on the model requires compromises in valve lift, and duration each influencing the other. Confusing at first, but there is an orderly method that works. Fortunately slow speed engine valve timing and valve lift isnt that critical, and the engine does well at slow speeds.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]The prototype B&E engine was found at the Coolspring Power Museum. It was surveyed and photographed and Doug Kelley did the engine build drawings. The model was fabricated from aluminum, brass and steel bar stock. Bore x stroke is 1.00 x 1.18. The model has a wet sump using splash lubrication as did the real B&E engines. The compression ratio is about 5.5:1, and it runs smoothly at 550 RPM with, or without load. The crankshaft is a 360[/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#8304;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] type (two up, two down) with counterweights and ball bearing mains. The S/S ignition is a single coil waste fire type. The fuel system is a modified 3mm self-compensating RC carburetor using propane fuel. The model features follow the prototype fairly closely, but a few exceptions were necessary at this scale.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]A 1918 dated piece of B&E electric plant literature shows Garwood Electric Co. DC generators were used by Bates & Edmonds on their full range of 5.5 to 27kw DC electric plants. DC electric plants were popular in that era  in rural and grand hotels attracting guests wanting to experience the modern marvel of electric illumination. The direct connected Garwood model generator was fabricated using a rewound 12 pole alternator stator core. It uses permanent magnets for excitation and provides a regulated 12vdc output. The generator output is 3 amps at 12vdc at a speed of 500 RPM. It is capable of higher output with a larger regulator, but the current rating and regulator suits this engine/generator combination nicely. The generator is a 2 bearing type.  It hums a bit due to the magnets and slow speed, but does a good job.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]The modular switchboard, metering, and radiator idea was seen in another model builders work. It worked out very well here, and incorporates a lot in a small footprint. The cooling system uses a computer radiator, expansion tank, and generator powered thermostatically controlled fan which is rarely needed at light load.  [/FONT]
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My video skills are still lacking, but you can get the feel for how it runs. The engine is actually quieter than the generator.Hope you enjoy.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Jeff[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52cj8px3GSA[/FONT]


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## kuhncw (Jan 8, 2016)

Jeff,  your Bates & Edmonds power plant is absolutely a top notch piece of work.  It runs as good as it looks. 
The combination of black paint and bare steel really set it off.

Chuck


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## Chiptosser (Jan 8, 2016)

Beautiful, Super!!
My 5hp Bull dog  Bates and Edmonds  doesn't come close.


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## idahoan (Jan 8, 2016)

That's an impressive piece of work Jeff; just beautiful!

Thanks for sharing,
Dave


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## 10K Pete (Jan 8, 2016)

That's a great looking set-up. I really like engines doing work.

Pete


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## pickleford75 (Jan 8, 2016)

First class workmenship..... love that smooth low idle!


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## cwelkie (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunning Jeff ... Just stunning!
Charlie


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## vederstein (Jan 9, 2016)

Very Nice!


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## S3MIH3MI (Jan 10, 2016)

Very nice, Runs great


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## Rustkolector (Jan 10, 2016)

Thanks for the compliments guys. Coming from other builders, they are greatly appreciated. It's nice to have a forum like HMEM to share our efforts and ideas. 

Jeff


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## ShopShoe (Jan 11, 2016)

Rustkolector,

Thank your for posting your Electric Plant. It runs so well and slow and steady. I would hope to build something like that myself some day.

I also like the attention to detail and the fine finish you have achieved. The colors also look natural for a machine of that type.

--ShopShoe


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## open (Jan 16, 2016)

Very nice


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## driller1432 (Jan 17, 2016)

Jeff
Beautiful work it brings back memories of when my father traveled all over the Navajo reservation in the sixties working on old generator sets at trading posts and radio towers


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## william_b_noble (Jul 27, 2022)

that's a beautiful job.... I have a question, the answer to which might enhance  your story - since you have a generator attached, if it's 1/8 scale it ought to be able to produce 17/8 = 2.125 KW, but of course power doesn't scale linearly - can you increase the load on the generator and (since you have a volt meter and an amp meter) tell how much power your engine puts out?


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## Charles Lamont (Jul 28, 2022)

Very nice indeed.


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## Rustkolector (Jul 28, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> that's a beautiful job.... I have a question, the answer to which might enhance  your story - since you have a generator attached, if it's 1/8 scale it ought to be able to produce 17/8 = 2.125 KW, but of course power doesn't scale linearly - can you increase the load on the generator and (since you have a volt meter and an amp meter) tell how much power your engine puts out?


Bill,
You are correct, power does not scale linearly. The 1/8th engine scale of this model refers only to the engine component dimensions. When the dimensions of an engine are scaled down to 1/8th of the original engine size the model engine displacement reduces by the cube of the scale. This would give an efficient model engine alternator a power output of about 33 watts @ 500 RPM with about 1/512th of the real engine displacement. The simplicity of this alternator design was not concerned with electrical efficiency. As such neither the alternator nor the metering would be accurate enough for any useful power calculations.  It was designed only to provide a nice small load to the engine and the lights demonstrate what these old engines actually did to earn their keep, nothing more.

Jeff


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## william_b_noble (Jul 29, 2022)

I guess I'm still curious.... those analog meters are typically about 5% accurate, or of course using a known resistance as the load you only need to measure voltage - do you get 33W? or is it closer to 10W??   I'm just curious, there is no actual use of making the measurement....  thanks


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## Steamchick (Jul 29, 2022)

Superb model, of an interesting generating plant. Well done Sir. 
Interesting description of the generator innerds.
K2


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## ajoeiam (Jul 30, 2022)

Rustkolector said:


> [FONT=&quot]This is my finished 25 hp Bates & Edmonds 17kw model electric plant in 1/8th scale. These unusual looking OHV engines used eccentrics and pull rods rather than cams and push rods. This valve arrangement was known as the alligator link valve motion. The full size engines used two built in adjusting features to time the valves. These same features could not be duplicated in the model at this scale, but other provisions were incorporated to make timing manageable. The eccentric and valve depressor lever over-travel on the model requires compromises in valve lift, and duration each influencing the other. Confusing at first, but there is an orderly method that works. Fortunately slow speed engine valve timing and valve lift isnt that critical, and the engine does well at slow speeds.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]The prototype B&E engine was found at the Coolspring Power Museum. It was surveyed and photographed and Doug Kelley did the engine build drawings. The model was fabricated from aluminum, brass and steel bar stock. Bore x stroke is 1.00 x 1.18. The model has a wet sump using splash lubrication as did the real B&E engines. The compression ratio is about 5.5:1, and it runs smoothly at 550 RPM with, or without load. The crankshaft is a 360&#8304; type (two up, two down) with counterweights and ball bearing mains. The S/S ignition is a single coil waste fire type. The fuel system is a modified 3mm self-compensating RC carburetor using propane fuel. The model features follow the prototype fairly closely, but a few exceptions were necessary at this scale.[/FONT]
> 
> ...



An echo of my fellow listees - - - - great job there sir!!!! 

I went looking for mr Doug Kelley to see about drawings - - - - they are unfindium for me. 

How would I find such - - please?


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## Rustkolector (Jul 31, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> An echo of my fellow listees - - - - great job there sir!!!!
> 
> I went looking for mr Doug Kelley to see about drawings - - - - they are unfindium for me.
> 
> How would I find such - - please?


Bill,

Yes the alternator will do 36 watts but is limited by the 3 amp voltage controller. As an alternator only it could be rated for 55 watts if I could find a suitable voltage control. It is a capable alternator, but it is not efficient due to its solid rotor. My goal has been to demonstrate a working scale model of an early and unique gas engine working at a chore most common in its working era. A secondary goal has been to provide a little load on the engine since it improves running and the exhaust sound.

Some time ago I did test an engine alternator combination with reasonably good metering and it proved that it did produce a true proportional amount of electric power compared to the advertised ratings of the real engine. Fortunately for me I kept the test period brief. I learned later about crankshaft Polar Moment and its affect when reducing the engine scale. If you want to take full scale load out of your scale model engine you will likely have to significantly beef up the crankshaft over the linear scale size to avoid failure. I do not normally run my gen set engines over 10-20% of the estimated scale load capability.

Ajoeiam,

I can only guess why Doug Kelley has chosen not made his B&E drawings available. The B&E engine will test your patience, especially when setting the valve timing since every adjustment results in more than one affect.

Jeff


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## Steamchick (Jul 31, 2022)

william_b_noble said:


> that's a beautiful job.... I have a question, the answer to which might enhance  your story - since you have a generator attached, if it's 1/8 scale it ought to be able to produce 17/8 = 2.125 KW, but of course power doesn't scale linearly - can you increase the load on the generator and (since you have a volt meter and an amp meter) tell how much power your engine puts out?


Hi Bill, Jeff, 
As a "werrit" (someone who worries about things even for no reason, and who sticks his nose in where not appropriate...) I spotted your remark about non-linearity of models: Of course, when it comes to things like polar moment of inertia (4th power) Stiffness of beams (3rd power) volumetric considerations (engine displacement etc. Cube = 3rd power) Areas (area of piston = force developed on con-rod) etc. I understand all these matters, but for a generator I would have simply guessed at a volumetric (cube, 3rd power) relationship with scale? I.E. for the "same" flux density as the full sized generator, and speed of change (dB/dt = rate of change of flux: or N=>S =>N at the same rpm as full sized) then the "Power" developed in a generator could be purely a volumetric ratio, of the "volume of flux" involved? - or "Volume of copper wire" involved? I haven't thought too deeply about this, but maybe you have the answer and explanation? Hence 1/8th scale generator = 1/512th of the power? => 17kW => 33w?
Thanks,
K2


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## Steamchick (Jul 31, 2022)

Jeff, On another matter: 
You mention the difficulties of setting the engine?
Are you referring to the curious arrangement of the "cam-levers" that operate the valves?
As per gen-set 11.jpg photo.
It looks to me like the "levers" are all wrong in the layout, but I am sure it is a true reflection of the full sized engine. Am I right in understanding that the "push-rod driven levers" acting on the levers on the valve tops act as cams? It feels wrong to me that these "cams" would have been acting in the middle of long levers, as the valve to levers are then having to resist bending ...?
An odd arrangement I should have avoided by arranging for the 
cam=action to be in the line of the valve motion...? Or maybe I have mis-understood the mode of operation? - It is a curious arrangement of levers - to me at least.
Can you explain this at all? Having made it work, I hope you know what is really going on here?
Thanks,
Ken


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## Rustkolector (Aug 1, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Jeff, On another matter:
> You mention the difficulties of setting the engine?
> Are you referring to the curious arrangement of the "cam-levers" that operate the valves?
> As per gen-set 11.jpg photo.
> ...


Ken,
The long rods do not work on the push stroke. They work on the pull stroke. You first adjust the angle of the top valve lever nominally by guess until till you get a near 90 degree angle between the pull rod and the top lever to maximize mechanical advantage against the valve spring torque. At the same time you will be setting valve opening distance. The inherant over travel of the cam levers adds to the confustion. Since the rods have two slight bends each in them you cannot adjust their length by a few degrees of rotation. The minimum stroke change can only be adjusted by a full 360 degree turn of the rods or a half turn at the top lever rod end. So you adjust the rod pull stroke duration nominally and then go to the eccentrics to get fine tuning of the duration. The real engines had a fine adjustable eccentric drive gear of some sort inside the crankcase. Adjustment was accessed through the front inspection cover. Not doable on the model. So you compromise until you get the engine to run well enough. It gets a little confusing at times but once you have it you better have taken good notes. 

Jeff


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## Steamchick (Aug 1, 2022)

Thanks Jeff, I think I follow the settings now. I was aware of the idea of eccentrics operating valves with 3/4 of their use flapping in the breeze.... so there are no Tappet clearances to set. And that the eccentrics need to be timed for opening and closing times, which can't be adjusted except by rotating the eccentric on the shaft.
Seems like a pre-camshaft arrangement for operating poet valves?
But a lovely model when running!
Cheers!
K2


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