# "How to Build model Engines"   the Book



## Mosey (Jun 12, 2012)

I would like to see a book published showing how to build model engines. It could be written by one or more of the experts and accomplished people on this forum. It could even be published by the Forum. Each chapter could be written by a different master expert in a chosen topic.
Steve, George, Marv, Bogs, Ken, others, how about it?
Put all of the wonderful knowledge you guys have into print, add some of the terrific pictures, and step by step we will have a book that guys like me can buy and keep on our benches to guide us through the various challenges. Who knows, it might allow us to ask our dumb questions in an orderly fashion! seriously, it would eliminate asking questions that have been answered before and give the beginners and students, a picture of the whole process from selecting a model to that miraculous first pop.
Think of the $$ you will make. You can buy more machines and make more great engines.What do you think, guys?


----------



## mklotz (Jun 12, 2012)

Reading this forum should convince you that there are many, many ways to build a model engine. This is especially true given the wide variety of tools that the amateur engine-builder might have available. No book could cover all the permutations that are possible.

My feeling is that you already have in place the ideal device to help you build model engines. It's this forum (and others similar to it). Each builder can bring his specific combination of problem, available tools, skills, etc. to the forum and get specific directions tailored to his situation. That's much better than any book, no matter how well written, can ever provide.

As to all the money such a book could bring in... I guess you've never authored anything for sale. Maybe if they made a movie from the book...yeah, right, that would do it. I can see the advert now...

'How to Build Model Engines" - the musical! Opening soon at a machine shop near you.


----------



## Mosey (Jun 12, 2012)

Sorry, Marv, you are missing the point. All of the terrific information, knowledge, and expertise on this forum is great, but it doesn't do what a book could do. A book doesn't have to have very different way to do each operation, but it could have one or two of the simplest ways. It could give you the overall picture of what it takes to complete and run an engine. The book idea would organize the info into a logical sequence of operations. It could cover the basics, with suggestions for more advanced to follow. It would put the major operations, pitfalls, etc., in one place.
For example, today I went looking for an excellent build for valve cages. Didn't find it. It's in there and I will look again until I find it, bit it would be easily found in a book in a logical place (the index).
And, a movie would be better at many things, so you can work on that right after the book is published.
Yes, this forum is the greatest, but there are other needs that a hard copy in your hand would be more immediate and perhaps better at.
Surely my statements about all of the $$ was somewhat fascetious, but there might be enough of it to make it rewarding beyond the satisfaction of seeing you're ideas in print for years to come. 
I think a book would supplement the forum in permanence, convenience, and serve to clarify and summarize some of the more basic and important aspects of model building. It would be great for beginners and those learning.
I'm sure that others collect hard copies of subjects from the Forum like I do about things they want to remember and have in hand, like your website.
Give it some thought.
The musical.. I didn't even think of that!


----------



## Darren English (Jun 12, 2012)

I think a book would be a great idea, I'd buy it.

And the wife has been going on for ages about seeing a musical, not sure this is what she meant tho!


----------



## tel (Jun 12, 2012)

> 'How to Build Model Engines" - the musical! Opening soon at a machine shop near you.



Hey, I can play the gramophone, reckon there's a part in it for me?


----------



## clivel (Jun 12, 2012)

Don't you think this is more appropriate?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31CFDrlVlk&feature=youtu.be


You should see what he can do on a lathe


----------



## Tin Falcon (Jun 12, 2012)

mosey:
Thank you for the confidence in the abilities of some of the folks here. 

writing a book ,editing, illustrating  finding a publisher etc is a major endeavor. 

 as Marv has pointed out this is not a easy subject to cover well. there are many makes and models of machinery. there are many perspectives and skill levels. It is a broad subject that need s to directed to a small niche market. 
as for the $$ see above small niche market. 
Can it be done yes!! has it been done again yes! 

Why not buy some of the books that have been published?
Tin


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Jun 12, 2012)

Ron Colonna published a book specific to the Offy. It is about what you described. give it a look. Ron is about as good an engine builder as they come so I would trust what is in the book to produce a running engine.



http://www.ronsmodelengines.com/Offy.html


----------



## Mosey (Jun 12, 2012)

Exactly to the point. Ron's book is great and describes a complex advanced build.

What I am saying is that in addition to the great stuff on this forum, there is a place for a book that can help those less skilled and experienced to build basic engines.
I know of no books currently around that do that.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Jun 12, 2012)

Simple Model Steam Engines by Stan Bray

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Simple-Model-Steam-Engines/dp/1861267738

Simple Model steam engines Tubal Cain
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Simple-Model-Steam-Engines/dp/1854861042

Simple Model steam engines book 2 Tubal Cain
http://www.powells.com/biblio/66-9781854861474-0

Model stationary and marine steam engines KN Harris
http://www.amazon.com/Model-Stationary-Marine-Steam-Engines/dp/0853440727/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

Model Marine engines Stan Bray
http://www.amazon.com/Model-Marine-Steam-Stan-Bray/dp/1591144930/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Rudy Kouhoupt build books (three) 
https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1672

Elmers engines plans with build instructions

 http://www.john-tom.com/html/ElmersEngines.html
Acquire the above books build the models and then you can write your own book. 
Tin


----------



## bezalel2000 (Jun 12, 2012)

Hi Mosey

I think you have a good idea, it just needs a bit of panel beating to bring it to life.

However the published book thing realy has been done before, with "simple engines". (as Tin Says)

Here's a couple in my library

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Simple-Model-Steam-Engines/dp/1854861042

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Simple-Model-Steam-Engines/dp/1854861476

for a Hard copy of the setups and techniques try Peter wrights book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Model-Engineering-A-Foundation-Course/dp/1854861522


Given that most of what's needed is already here in the forum, You could build, for all of us, a comprehensive book like (printable) index for HMEM.
We would then have the absolute best of both print and soft copy.

What do you think mosey, are you up for it? 

I 'm sure the members would very much appreciate the effort.

Bez


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 12, 2012)

Probably an easier task would be to take on of the old public domain model engineering books, such as Greenlee, and add comments to it chapter by chapter, to modernize it where necessary/required.

Greenlee laid it all out in superb detail way back in the 1920's, and most of the information is still valid today.
It would be a shame to have to totally reinvent the wheel in 2012.

The focus in 1920 seemed to be more on gray cast iron castings and highly authentic models, based on readily available full-sized engines which could easily be examined and measured.

These days the trend is to scratch build from aluminum using stock shapes, and while these modern engines can be beautiful and highly functional, they do different significantly from what was called model engineering in 1920.

If you like bling, then more power to you, but I guess I would like to revisit model engineering via added comments to Greenlee, and then have a bling/modern fasteners (capscrews, loctite, plastic piston rings, etc) chapter for those who are into that sort of thing.

Certainly this topic can start a Hatfield/McCoy discussion, but I am not for or against any particular method of model building, but I certainly appreciate the history of model building, and enjoy knowing how we got to this point, and how they use to design and build models.

The definition of "model building" is whatever you enjoy, but I do like history and authenticity.
Just my preferences.


----------



## Mosey (Jun 12, 2012)

Bezalel  said:
			
		

> Hi Mosey
> 
> I think you have a good idea, it just needs a bit of panel beating to bring it to life.
> 
> ...


I'm delighted to have initiated this discussion, as I've learned a lot.

Thanks, Tin for the list, some of which I have, some must get.

No, sorry, I'm not able to put the time into that printable index at this time, as I am in the last stage of building my Silver Bullet. I am putting certain top builld sections together for my own little manual, and will continue as I go along. And, there is also the little issue of my still working, which sucks up the time. As time goes on, I will hopefully have a fair set of build tutorials, that I will gladly share. 
More to follow...


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 12, 2012)

_My feeling is that you already have in place the ideal device to help you build model engines. It's this forum (and others similar to it). Each builder can bring his specific combination of problem, available tools, skills, etc. to the forum and get specific directions tailored to his situation. That's much better than any book, no matter how well written, can ever provide.
Marv_

I could not agree with Marv more.
There is much to be said for books, but forums are sort of like dynamic books, and you can ask the book questions about a huge variety of topics, and taylored to your particular style of build/materials/machinery/software.

The amount of experience abvailable on this forum is vast, and the knowledge base is very wide. People here are ready and willing to help.

And this forum is commercial-free, thank goodness no blinking flashing moving garbage cluttering up the screen.

Great forum, great people on the forum.
We should really send donations.


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 12, 2012)

Bezalel  said:
			
		

> Given that most of what's needed is already here in the forum, You could build, for all of us, a comprehensive book like (printable) index for HMEM.
> We would then have the absolute best of both print and soft copy.



I'm done with my first draft of this... I call it 'search.' Rake was kind enough to let me put it up as a link in the upper right corner.

It's not a fully comprehensive index, alas. you still have to guide it towards what you want with a few keywords, but it's pretty handy already!

- Ryan


----------



## bezalel2000 (Jun 13, 2012)

You're quite right Ryan - 

I think I'll be persevering with the search engine.......

Until the musical comes out ;D

Bez


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 13, 2012)

Mosey,

I think you are right to attempt to get us all involved in writing a 'book', unfortunately, getting it done isn't as easy as it sounds.

You would really need to start off with a particular engine in mind, and that would cause problems straight away, i/c, steam, Stirling etc etc etc. just so that you would have some continuity in the build. How do you tell someone that he has to show making a part for an i/c engine when all he is interested in is say Stirling engines, and vice versa.

The best way would be to find not too long, but outstanding posts on here, about building a particular type of engine, edit out all the replies and junk remarks, clean the build up a bit by taking out some of the warts and all, then that would make one good chapter.

Do that ten times with ten different types of engine, and you have your book.

Get someone to host the book, and let it be downloaded free of charge, or make say a small donation of a couple of bucks to help this site along.

Otherwise, just download my 'roughie' book and have a read, it might give you a few good tips, then throw it away after you are done with it, nothing lost.

http://www.machinistblog.com/bogstandards-paddleduck-engine-plans/

BTW, the one thing I don't like about your suggestion is making money from it. I give my time and effort freely to anyone who cares to read about it, as I am sure most others do as well. The thought of making money from my ramblings doesn't appeal to me one little bit.


John


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 13, 2012)

Not suggesting that anyone here necessarily would do such a thing, but writing a collaborative and then selling it can very quickly lead to all sorts of hurt feelings, he said she said, and potentially lawsuits, as one person might say they contributed more and deserve a bigger cut, or this or that.

I wish humanity was more trustworthy in this era, but sad to say, this is what happens often in these situations. Just look at all the lawsuits about lottery pools gone wrong lately.

My post about the search feature was intended as a joke. It can be very difficult to figure out just what wording you need to use to get what you are looking for. I think it would be neat to have at least a comprehensive index of build logs, so one could quickly find all of the build logs done for a particular engine.

One trick to searching, if you can't find what you want using the forum search, is to use google. You can tell it to search a specific site, with a search string like :

 site:homemodelenginemachinist.com Edwards radial

Where 'Edwards radial' is what you are searching for. Google uses a different search algorithm that lets it find hits where the words are not necessarily consecutive, or even in order.

-Ryan, who needs to use search more often before asking his questions.


----------



## Sshire (Jun 13, 2012)

What Bogs said. 
If you haven't read his "Paddleduck" book, do it now. 
It applies to building any small engine. I've learned so many techniques and an excellent sense of how to approach a build. 
Not to be missed.
Best
Stan


----------



## Troutsqueezer (Jun 13, 2012)

A couple of years ago, some may remember, a forum member who went by the name "BigBore" took it upon himself to take some of the build threads going on at the time and cull the impertinent posts, then combine what was left into a cohesive pdf document then post it in the Downloads section. It appeared he was getting quite a bit of enjoyment from this activity and did this with maybe 6 or 7 build threads, including mine. Then one day, suddenly, he was gone, never to be heard from again. I still wonder where he went and hope he is ok. I still remember his tag line: "I've got your back."


----------



## Mosey (Jun 13, 2012)

I am following your suggestion and started reading the Paddleduck book. You are right, it is excellent, and satisfies many of the needs for engine building. I will be attempting to learn silver soldering by following that chapter.
Perhaps I should do much more digging and reading before I open my mouth suggesting the need for things. My apologies to all if I wasted your time and forum space.
Of course, one advantage of a book would be the ease of seeing all of the topics in an easily accessed place without reading many pages on the forum.
I will continue to compile my own notebook printouts of juicy builds like those of Steve and George and others. And, I will be reading many of the others listed by Tin.
Thanks again for your patience with this hatchling.
Mosey


----------



## bearcar1 (Jun 13, 2012)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> A couple of years ago, some may remember, a forum member who went by the name "BigBore" took it upon himself to take some of the build threads going on at the time and cull the impertinent posts, then combine what was left into a cohesive pdf document then post it in the Downloads section. It appeared he was getting quite a bit of enjoyment from this activity and did this with maybe 6 or 7 build threads, including mine. Then one day, suddenly, he was gone, never to be heard from again. I still wonder where he went and hope he is ok. I still remember his tag line: "I've got your back."



Absolutely Trout',

 I remember BigBore as well and thought his efforts were top notch. I truly enjoyed being able to revisit all of those remarkable builds of the time without the 'attaboys' and such in the mix. I often PM'd him and let him know how appreciative I was of his endeavors and as you said, one day he disappeared. For while I even attempted to "assemble" some of the archived feature builds for my own personal use and man I have to tell you, it is ALOT of work. I lost interest in that but always thought it to have been such a terrific concept. 
 Still, we all do have this forum as our playground and can take comfort in knowing that the answers to our questions are only a few keystrokes away. ;D :bow:

BC1
Jim


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 13, 2012)

I have recently done an abridged version of my Scott engine build that I did when over on Modders. It ran to 12 pages on that site, but I have got it down to about 5 or 6 pages now by taking out all the comments, questions and answers, plus modifying a bit of the original text.

The engine was never finished because of personal reasons over the last year, but when I do start it again, I hope to put the abridged version on here in serial form, so people can ask their own questions after each bit of the serial, and when that is finished with, I will carry on with building the engine, which has about another 50% to go.

It didn't take long to shave it down and proof read it, about two days in my spare time, so not a big project at all. I'm sure most good engine builds could have the same done to them, then put into their own heading and locked up.
If people then wanted to ask questions of the builder, they can raise their own topic, pointing to the build sequence in question.

The main problem is which builds are chosen, and will the originator be willing to edit it, as it is not really any use getting someone else to do it, as the text needs to be changed in the original because of some of the questions and comments made. That is what took me most of my time.

Now Mosey, you brought up the subject, so it is now up to you to choose which builds, and to persuade the authors to carry out the editing.


John


----------



## Mosey (Jun 13, 2012)

OK Bogs, I will take the challenge and pick an engine build, but can it be after I finish the Bullet, yes?


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 13, 2012)

Mosey,

I was only pulling your leg.

But if anyone is really interested, then join in, and if the people who did any of the selected posts are no longer with us, then I don't mind doing a bit of offline editing to make them presentable. But I will only work with posts that have off site links to pictures, not the tiny on site ones that people are using now.

Just get your builds selected and make up a list.


John


----------



## Mosey (Jun 13, 2012)

You must have long arms... all the way from Crewe!
You're on my schedule.

Mosey


----------



## ProdEng (Jun 13, 2012)

John, If you click on the tiny pictures you will get the full size version pop up.

Jan


----------



## Tin Falcon (Jun 14, 2012)

This thread has caused me to review the peter wright book . Lots of good basics in there. 
Tin


----------



## bezalel2000 (Jun 14, 2012)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> This thread has caused me to review the peter wright book . Lots of good basics in there.
> Tin



Page 29
has a gem that should be the standard reply to the regular newbie question "What do I start on?"
Quote       *Choosing the First Project*
"Your First project must be chosen with care. It must be relevant to your interests, and interesting and challenging to make, but above all, it must be a project which has an achievable conclusion. It is a mistake to commence your modelling with a too-detailed model as it may take so long that you will become discouraged and the project will flounder due to lack of progress"
Peter Wright  th_rulze


----------



## Blogwitch (Jun 14, 2012)

Jan,

I know that the pictures come up to full size, well some do, it is the fact that the pictures are not embedded with the text they go with is the reason I, and most probably others, don't read them.

What is the use of half a page of text, then half a dozen pictures that you have to work out what is being done.

Text then a picture (as I do), or a picture with text underneath is the easiest way for anyone to read a topic.

In fact there should be a plethora of pictures being shown to explain what is being done, finished parts are no use at all, they just don't show anyone how it was done.

Besides, we all like looking at pictures.


John


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

I think the problem with this hobby is that your average Joe cannot afford $20,000.00 worth of equipment, digital readouts, CNC, etc. etc.

Seems like it has to get back to the basics, as was laid out in books like Greenlee, with a small lathe, a drill press, hand files, manually operated dials, a small garden shop.

Elaborate builds using elaborate equipment are great to look at and read about, but if you want to teach someone how to make engines in a way that is affordable, then start with the basics, and keep it basic.

It makes no sense in making simple (cookie cutter type) engines using extravagantly expensive machine tools.
Few can afford to do such things, but in a greater sense, that is not really what has traditionally been defined as "model engineering".

I use to ask my Dad "How can I earn a million dollars?".
His joking response was "Well first, you get a million dollars, then you ........"
But the moral of the story is don't put the cart in front of the horse, or you can make complex engines using simple machines and methods, just read Greenlee.

Edit:
I think there is too much focus on high-tech equipment, CNC, DRO, VFD, the list goes on and on, and little focus on what or how to build complex engines without all that.
The best piece of equipment you could ever have is between your two ears.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

Here are model engineering books by Yates and Greenlee, the masters of model engineering.


No milling machines. Many shops did not even have electricity (lathes were powered by a steam engine).

A few pictures from the books.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

More shops from the early 1900's.


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

So obviously any model built using primitive equipment in dimly lit shops would also be rather primitive....right.....

Wrong, some of the finest models ever built.


----------



## Rayanth (Jun 14, 2012)

If you happen to live, or visit, the Seattle region, make an effort to go by the Seattle Museum of Flight, adjacent to Boeing Field in Seattle.

Boeing Field is not the international airport, it's the site where Boeing first really started building airplanes ( the very first site was a boat dock in the harbor )

The museum has a lot of rare aircraft (one I helped restore just got hung in the display area, a YO-3A, of which only a dozen were built), but the real attraction for you would be the restored workshop. This is the old style workshop where everything is powered by belts driven off of overhead power shafts, driven by an engine elsewhere. It's really interesting to see how what we might now consider primitive machinery was used to create some of the earlier production airplanes.

- Ryan


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

Someone mentioned (I think the editor of MEB) that there was a display at a recent modeling show, and the display set up to teach the young people consisted of allowing the kids to push a button to start a CNC machine, which then produced a part.

It just makes me want to sit down and cry......

Lets face it folks, most have pretty much lost the "art" of model making.
Now days it is all about the equipment.


----------



## Dave G (Jun 14, 2012)

One of my favorite books is LC Masons Model 4-Stroke Petrol Engines. It is no longer in print but can be found used. I have been into this hobby since the year 2000 and I have tried to collect all the info in print that I can. There isn't alot out there to be had. There are a few reprints of full scale engine manufacturing from early in the last century and they are really nice if you like to scratch build. Right now I am nursing a couple of bruised ribs from my last project and I'm not into lifting my boxes of books to find them. I will later if there is interest. 

I'm with Marv on the access to knowledge in this forum. I apprenticed as a Tool&Die maker at 19 years old. We were night schooled for 4 years in anything from blueprint reading to basic physics. This was to get basic knowledge in a broad range of subjects. When you had the need you were expected to find the info on your own, that was driven into us. That was done by going to the books, trade manuals, parts manuals, anything you could glean something from. If you couldn't solve your dilema then you went and asked your co-workers. I had good journey men as co-workers that would help but they would expect you to get as much as you could on your own. You didn't want to be the guy who always asked questions before his first attempt. 

We were always told that our job wasn't to be good parts makers, it was to become good at making parts and then use that ability to make everything around us better. If you saw something you could improve, management was into that. To do this we were expected to have a good feel for materials, heat treatments, metrology, machining, grinding, etc. My point in all this that we model engine builders take on a huge undertaking when we build our models. There is a need for aquiring knowledge about alot of different subjects. The book would be way to heavy to read or pick up that would cover all that would be needed. That is why this forum is so great. You have a forum of individuals that all have different experiences and backgrounds here. They are all of the helpful type and are willing to share their knowledge. No book will ever be a substitute for that knowledge. It would be nice to have a model engine bible for everyone to have at their disposal but the task of writing it would be greater than than any mortal man that I know.

My suggestion for anyone into this hobby is to find every book on machining you can find. If you have any questions on setups you can always go to the local engine rebuild shop and ask to see how they do it and then adapt that to what you have at home. Find a local machinist mentor, they are still around. One thing I have learned is when you find something you think you may be able to use in your hobby, buy it. I passed on too many things over the years that later I had a use for. 

Sorry for the ramblings, but I have thought about this subject many times and have even attempted my own version but I found that there is so much that would be needed that it is beyond my abilites. Dave


----------



## JorgensenSteam (Jun 14, 2012)

_"It would be nice to have a model engine bible for everyone to have at their disposal but the task of writing it would be greater than than any mortal man that I know."_

There were two such books written by the mortals mentioned above (Greenlee and Yates).
Free books in PDF format.


----------



## RichardAnderson (Aug 13, 2012)

I wish humanity was more trustworthy in this era, but sad to say, this  is what happens often in these situations. Just look at all the lawsuits  about lottery pools gone wrong lately.....



427 engine


----------

