# Seeking Drawings for Yacht Signal Cannon



## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

Hi everyone,

I’m trying to locate a set of drawings for a breach loading yacht signal cannon. 

Any help anyone can give me any in locating a set would be greatly appreciated.

I remember once seeing one with a swinging breach, a lanyard operated firing pin, and working “shell” ejector.

The builder made his own “shells” from brass stock that had lip at the bottom like a shot shell and a hole in the Center to accommodate a primer.

Made of brass it used black powder held in by a paper wad in each “shell”. The total charge was maybe a teaspoon or two of powder. The bore was about three quarters of an inch.

I am interested in the breach and shell ejector design more than anything else.

Thanks!
Jenny


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## dnalot (Nov 29, 2019)

Careful with a cannon that big Jennifer. I fired a 1 inch cannon in my front yard and blew out all the windows on two sides of the house and one side of the garage. No wonder I got the thing for free, so did the next guy. 

Mark


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## goldstar31 (Nov 29, 2019)

I would think that the Royal  Yorkshire Yacht Club in Bridlington would have the  'real ' thing.

What has to be recalled is that most sailing clubs on the North East Coast have 'Frostbite' races and I guess that the RYYC  has an event between Christmas and the New Year.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

Mark,

thanks for the heads up and the huge smile on my face,

It is a gift to a friend who had one stolen from her sailboat. It was fired at sunset when she would lower her yacht ensign while in foreign ports. 

Kind of a silly ceremony to mark the beginning of the evenings imbibment;-) 

Jenny


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

Thanks I think I’ll go knock on their door and see what they know, I believe they are open on Saturday late afternoon.


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## fcheslop (Nov 29, 2019)

I think there was a build for a breach loading Winchester signal cannon on the practical machinist forum a few years back.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 29, 2019)

I'm  Norman by the way. Frazer is the guy up at British West Hartlepool where they hung a monkey dressed in a French cabin boy's uniform it couldn't speak English and they thought it was a spy. It will be denied

And Jenny, I'm supposed to be going to Flamborough Head.  Another salty tale!

I was a 'dingy' sailor. I was, I was!

Norm


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## WOB (Nov 29, 2019)

Jennifer, look here:  https://patents.google.com/patent/US681021A/en?inventor=charles+griffith&oq=charles+griffith&page=4

WOB


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

Norm. I actually raced Sabots. An eight  foot class dingy at the Newport Beach Yacht  Club back in the late 70’s

Some days when stuff is not going right in my machine shop I feel like taking a dive off Flamborough Head!


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

WOB said:


> Jennifer, look here:  https://patents.google.com/patent/US681021A/en?inventor=charles+griffith&oq=charles+griffith&page=4
> 
> WOB



Thanks Wob I’ll check it out


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## goldstar31 (Nov 29, 2019)

Sabot Class? what a lovely  little 'kipper box'! I bought the children( then) an International Optomist dinghy which is another lovely thing.
Being utterly hopeless at English sports like cricket, football and rugby,  loved 'wet' sports. 
Clears throat and admits that the scar and skin graft on my left palm was from boatbuilding. There is still a sailboard ex my now grown up son which he left in the rafters of my garage and quite a few photographs of me white water canoeing and 'somewhere' a sailing instructors certificate. All of which, I confess being half blind at almost 90 are only fading memories now.

Norm


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## kf2qd (Nov 29, 2019)

I used to have a 5/8 bore cannon/ Used 150 grains of powder by volume. That is considerable more that a teaspoon. A teaspoon should be manageable without blowing out windows.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

It’s all about the pressure wave created. If you set the thing off on the wide open bow of a boat there is not  much to break.

On the other hand if you fired it off in an enclosed alley way where the wave of pressure can be funnelled in one direction or another or perhaps bounce off a surface or two, windows ... and ear drums.... will break.

I still have not found a good detailed drawing of a breech assembly and shell ejector.

That patent drawing is close though.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

The owner of a shop that specialises in them sent me this link, http://landandseacollection.com/id271.html if you drill down into the images,  some of them have good views of the breaches of the various cannons.


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## goldstar31 (Nov 29, 2019)

New construction! Is this all actually legal in the UK?

Norm


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 29, 2019)

Good question,  I’ve just written a local gunsmith about it. I know they are legal to own.


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## Naiveambition (Nov 29, 2019)

Their is a build log on here somewhere that detailed a breech loading .22  build.  If I remember correctly it was a deck cannon from a ww2 era warship. I also believe the drawings were from popular mechanics drawings originally , and with the age and so forth , the poster did all the drawings in cad.      It's a very nice design and build that could easily be turned to look like a traditional signal cannon. Here's a screenshot for one of them to get an idea.




I do have to agree one inch is a whole lotta bang. I experienced a neighbor that built a .50 caliber , and without knowing after he lit it, I thought my dad knocked everything off the garage walls at once.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Nov 30, 2019)

Thank you Naive.

Funny I was looking at a similar gun  for the breach design.

The signal cannon it will be replacing had a much more traditional profile, with a wooden carriage and old naval cannon shape.

.22 is a tad small. It will be replacing one that chambered a 10 gauge shot shell, and made the appropriate report.

The vessel it will be sitting on is s 55’ Choy Lee ketch. She has very traditional lines with a center cockpit, clipper bow, and poop deck. A modern naval gun would appear out of place on her.







I would not make the breach near as long however.

The gun it is replacing had a horizontally split breach where the top half hinged open, and the lower half that contained the shell ejector was part of the whole signal cannon.  It always scared me a little as it locked shut with a very small latching mechanism. The beefy quarter turn square thread arrangement seems stronger.

Of course firing blanks means the pressures on the breach and barrel will not be nearly as high as if it were firing a projectile. I think a gas tight seal would be more important than s super strong one.


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## golddustpeak (Nov 30, 2019)

You might try askinh here:

https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/88-blackpowder-mortar-cannon-sponsored-seacoast-artillery.html


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

This is what I received from a commercial gun smith regarding legality of a black powder signal cannon:

** ***
My legal teams interpretation is thus. If its capable of firing a lethal projectile then its licensed. The fact is that if you where to do such a thing it probably would destroy the cannon would not come into it. So it comes under section one signal apparatus. 
*****

So I imagine if I made it in a way that it could not fire s projectile if be ok to make one. I’m thinking a small taper in the barrel  that would not allow a projectile to pass thru from the breach would do the trick.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

Thanks for the link, that book does show thd detailed construction of a csrtisgd much like the one that was taken... thanks


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

Finally got a good answer: if I build it to chamber “12 gauge short saluting shell” and making it unable to chamber a standard length shot shell. It will come under class one signal device law,

This kills two birds with one stone:

Not having to register the darn thing as a shotgun (yes less than 2” bore canon are legally shotguns the U.K.) and not having to have it “proofed” by whomever does that,

It also removes the whole problem of obtaining a black powder license.

Now with thd legal stuff figured out:

Still I need some good drawings of a breach loading mechanism.


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## WOB (Dec 1, 2019)

Post deleted.


WOB


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## Ed T (Dec 1, 2019)

If you google Winchester signal cannon you will find a couple for sale over near Chester which is, I believe, about a three hour drive from where you are. Could be one closer, but that was the first thing I saw when I looked. It might be worth going and taking a look just to see how it's made. AFA tapering the barrel, that wouldn't make a lot of difference if you loaded up a "full" shotgun shell, assuming that the barrel didn't burst which it probably wouldn't. Of course, if you take the words literally, that wouldn't be "a" lethal projectile; it would be a bunch of lethal projectiles.


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## WOB (Dec 1, 2019)

The original Winchester cannon is currently manufactured by http://www.bellmorejohnson.com/.   If you look at the closeup pics of the breech mechanism on that site,  it is easy to see that it is made according to this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US681021A/en?inventor=charles+griffith&oq=charles+griffith&page=4 .   The inventor  assigned the patent to Winchester and the patent was filed in 1901.
The patent dwgs. are detailed enough for a maker to create his own machinist dwgs. with dimensions easily by using a printer with  copying function with adjustable scale factor.  Using a known dimension( the chamber dia., for example) the printer can make a new copy of the patent dwg  with the size adjusted so the known dimension is actual size on the copy. The other desired dimensions can then be easily measured off the dwg with a caliper.   This method also makes irregular shapes easily transferable to metal stock by simply cutting them out of the copy and gluing them to the metal stock.  This method only works when the original dwg is an accurate representation of a real working model of the patent.   In this case, it seems to be very close to the real cannons made by Bellmore Johnson in both shapes and proportions.  It is certainly close enough to make a working gun directly from the patent.

WOB


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

Thanks Ed and WOB,

It looks like a simple design, and I like simple. I’ll still have to get an eyeball on one to be able to wrap my head around the breach lock. 

I like the elegantly simple design of the spring for the hammer. It appears to have a positive lock when cocked and looks like it would have a “snappy” action when the lanyard were tugged.

I appreciate the input guys 

Jenny


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## goldstar31 (Dec 1, 2019)

The Home office in its Guide to Firearms Licensing Law para 6.42 covers the use by 'sailing clubs' It concludes that   anyone wanting do this,  must have a firearms certificate.

It seems clear enough once having waded  through huge swathes of regulations inapplicable in this matter


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

Thank you goldstar. 

It seems reasonable enough. Thank you for going the wading!

I have been looking at firearms regs snd corresponding with several signal cannon companies and have only been more confused with each bit of info. 

I think I’ll simply go have a chat with whomever handles firearms licenses in my town and see if they can’t confuse me some  more.

Jenny


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## goldstar31 (Dec 1, 2019)

Amongst other things, I studied Constitutional Law, commercial law and - clears throat, criminal law - before studying --- engineering. 
I finished up before retiring at the tender age of 55, as , clears my throat, prosecuting for my firm.
 I would suggest that you arrange with the local police whether I am right and if, so what reasonable steps you should pursue to make the thing- and not end up as an exhibit in the Tower of London.
What you must remember is that 'Ignorance of the Law is NO excuse' in English jurisprudence.
And I'm short of files to get you out of the pokey

So my best wishes. And clears throat again, I'm dining with members of the local Firearms Squad- on Friday the 13th- a date to conjure with Honestly and all that


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

Thanks for the sage advice. I suspect I will have to take one of two tacks,

Either as a class one signal device, which is covered under the law you quoted.  

Or register it as s shotgun (all cannons under two inch bore are technically shotguns) which eojld dldo require proofing. At that point it would be capable of legally firing a projectile.

I’m hoping by designing it to only chamber those 12 gauge short signal blanks  will get it recognised as the former.

Any way I’ll see what our local constabulary says and go from there.

I guess my friend, who’s boat the signal cannon I’m replacing was stolen from, was technically breaking the law every time she fired it!


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 1, 2019)

BTW, I was lucky enough to retire at 56 from a career as a manufacturing systems architect. I’m now 63 and have loved every minute of my early reprieve from the rat race.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 1, 2019)

You see in England, a great deal is  that is unwritten  and we have in lots of things rely on case law. 
What is Statute Law( as this is), the Queen approves it, not in English  but in Norman French.
That was another Norman, I hasten to add
Another Norman


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## rmd55 (Dec 2, 2019)

Jenny, 
being across the pond I can't help with legal advise.  Over here anyone citizen can legally make firearms for their own use, under federal law.  Though state/local law may not allow you to own  the firearm you just made.  As for "proofing" the cannon look to a good gunsmith especially one that makes custom firearms.   When I was making black powder arms 30 vrs ago we would proof the barrel with a load double the maximum load we would ever shoot in the gun.  NEVER EVER use modern smokeless power in something designed for black powder.  The pressure builds much faster usually with disastrous results.  There are some black powder replacements, as even over here the misuse of black powder has made it hard to get.  Pyrodex is the most common brand here.  Again a gunsmith could help you there.  There are some lovely large bore English double barrel rifles different sizes of  "Nitro Express".
Richard


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## nel2lar (Dec 3, 2019)

Jennifer Edwards said:


> BTW, I was lucky enough to retire at 56 from a career as a manufacturing systems architect. I’m now 63 and have loved every minute of my early reprieve from the rat race.





Jennifer
There is no such thing as luck. You worked hard for what you have and you deserve all the enjoyment possible. I enjoy your build and conversations even if I do not reply.
Enjoy your life.
Nelson


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## goldstar31 (Dec 4, 2019)

nel2lar said:


> Jennifer
> There is no such thing as luck. You worked hard for what you have and you deserve all the enjoyment possible. I enjoy your build and conversations even if I do not reply.
> Enjoy your life.
> Nelson



How sad! History shows that Luck has an important role to play- or not.
Napoleon was reputed to say about choosing a new general but asked 'Is he a lucky general?'
I'm a fairly decent mathematician  and claim to understand the Theory of Probability but like the rest of my associates last Sunday confounded us all when I won three times in 3 successive weeks using the same number .
There were 60 chances all at £1 coin and therefore if I won once, I would probably win again after a year or so.
If you spin a coin up, eventually it will be even heads and tails. Not so for me, it seems.
The only work that I did was to take a £1 coin out of my pocket and  and say, 'my usual number 31'
Of course, I seem to have what the Scots call ' The Gift'. It's anything but a gift. It seems to run in the double helix of DNA in my family- but I digress.

Hard Luck, Nelson!

Norman


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## Cogsy (Dec 4, 2019)

goldstar31 said:


> I'm a fairly decent mathematician  and claim to understand the Theory of Probability but like the rest of my associates last Sunday confounded us all when I won three times in 3 successive weeks using the same number .


If you were to correctly pick 3 lots of a 1/60 chance (for instance a 3 number lottery draw where the numbers are replaced), then that would be a very unlikely event (1 in 216,000). However, in this case you won once, which had a probability of *almost* 1 (it was virtually guaranteed to happen at some point as you play every week you say). From there, the probability of you winning the next week would be 1/60 which isn't hugely unlikely. Next, the probability of you winning a third time, given that you'd won twice already, was again 1/60. When we put these probabilities all together, the probability that you won three weeks in a row (regardless of the number you picked, assuming the game is fair with no bias) is 1 x 1/60 x 1/60 which comes out at 1 in 3600. This is a reasonably unlikely outcome but not phenomenally so, and far more likely than winning any 'normal' lottery or even reasonably large raffle just once. Even the 1 in 216,000 chance is more than an order of magnitude less than the probability of winning a lottery draw one time.



goldstar31 said:


> There were 60 chances all at £1 coin and therefore if I won once, I would probably win again after a year or so.


I guess it depends on your definition of 'probably' but you'd have better than a 50% chance of winning again after 30 weeks. Being that you're discussing probability theory then I think 'a year or so' would be a bit more than "probably".


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 4, 2019)

I worked hard to retire early saving 1/3 of my salary in s 401k ( self funded retirement fund) so maybe not luck.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 4, 2019)

I take your point
Cheers

Norman


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## goldstar31 (Dec 4, 2019)

deleted


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Apr 2, 2020)

Hi Jenny,
The definition of a shotgun is a smooth bore weapon with a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and needs a shotgun certificate and if made must go through proof at either London or Birmingham proof houses. If the barrel is shorter than 24 inches it becomes a firearm and has to have a firearm certificate, section 1 and again needs to go through proof.  Secondly, the aquisition of Black Powder requires an explosive licence from the local police force and don't you have to jump through hoops to get one. It is easyer to go to the local gun shop and ask for a container of "Pyrodex", ff, a substitute for black powder fire arms. As it is a propellant and not an explosive it doesn't require a licence, but, be careful as it is about 30% more powerful than black powder. It burns but does not explode when confined. I know these bits of information as I shoot "muzzle loading" fire arms and at one time made my own long range pistols for competition at places like Bisley, Deer Hay and Mere ranges.


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