# Plans And Drawing



## nev (Jan 6, 2011)

I'M wondering if there is a site that plans and drawings can be bought and email to the buyer
I have found a few that seem to be grossly overpriced or the have to sell the casting to (not just the plans)


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## kjk (Jan 6, 2011)

If you can provide a little more information as to the types of project plans you are interested in, you will get lots of specific answers.

There are many engine plans available for sale, and many can be downloaded for free.


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## Tin Falcon (Jan 6, 2011)

this site has lots for download 
http://www.john-tom.com/html/ElmersEngines.html
Jan Ridders will e-mail plans for free upon request
http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/tekening_overzicht/tekeningen_overzicht.htm
Tin


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## nev (Jan 11, 2011)

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> If you can provide a little more information as to the types of project plans you are interested in, you will get lots of specific answers.



I'm generally just looking at the moment
But really trying to find some for a traction engine


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## Jasonb (Jan 11, 2011)

Just about all the traction engines that I know of you can buy just the drawings separate from the castings. Its then your choice to also buy castings, fabricate or cast your own.

In the smaller sizes you could also look at Rudy's tractor, that was covered here a while back, this would also give you a US style engine and is all fabricated. The 1" Minnie can also be made without castings but it may be easier to buy just the flywheel and cylinder for an easy life, thats the engine in my avitar.

Give an indication of size and I can point you in the right direction for drawings.

Jason


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## nev (Jan 11, 2011)

Around a 3" scale Traction Engine would be good


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## gbritnell (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi Nev,
I guess it depends on what you consider grossly overpriced. I have designed parts and made drawings and in the end have many, many hours tied up in the whole affair. I try to get a reasonable amount for them when I sell them. If you have never done anything like that it's hard to realize the time and work involved. I have found that most people who offer drawings are very gracious with their work, either offering them quite reasonably or in a lot of cases for no charge at all.
I don't think I have seen any 'reasonable' drawings for a 3" traction engine, or for that matter any detailed traction engine. Like Jason said you could start with Rudy's engine and scale it up somewhat but a 3" engine would have an entirely different boiler setup.
gbritnell


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## Jasonb (Jan 11, 2011)

Given that the current engine I am building has 14 drawings of approx AO size just the copy costs would be around £40GBP and you have to expect the seller to make a living and cover the costs of developing the design I don't think that what they charge is unreasonable.

At 3 " you have quite a choice

The Model the other Australia guy is doing is the 3" Fowler A7 by MJ Engineering, as I said a lot of this can be fabricated so you don't have to buy castings, this is his photobucket album with some pics of the engine. and this will show what a near complete engine involves just mine is 2". Plans, construction manual and castings available from http://www.mjeng.co.uk/ They also do a Wallis in 3"

You could also look at the 3" or 4" Little Samson, the 4" is not much larger than the 3" Fowler
http://www.littlesamson.co.uk/ I strongly suggest getting Edwards book if its your first traction engine

Bridport do the Plastow designs though the drawings can be a bit hard to follow
http://www.bridporttractionengines.co.uk/index.php

LSM do the 3" Marshall
http://www.livesteammodels.co.uk/Home.html

The 3" Maclaren is a nice compound engine, contact Terry at Double B Design
[email protected]

Con'd


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## Jasonb (Jan 11, 2011)

If you prefer a US style engine then try New West Live Steam
http://www.newwestlivesteam.com/noflash.htm

Jon Rex does a doubled up version of the popular Alchin which builds into a nice model
http://www.miniaturesteam.com/Traction_Engines/traction_engines.html

You can also treble up the 1" minnie design, as this is a freelance engine you can do things as you want to some extent and incorporate dits of different engines that take your fancy.

There are a few others but may be problems shipping to you.

I would suggest you spend a bit of time looking at posts on a specialist model traction engine Forum, this is the best by far, there are builders of all the engines I mentioned above except possibley NWLS and also several of teh suppliers also post there, go to the miniature section once you sign up.

http://www.tractiontalkforum.com/

Jason


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## GWRdriver (Jan 11, 2011)

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> Given that the current engine I am building has 14 drawings of approx AO size just the copy costs would be around £40GBP and you have to expect the seller to make a living and cover the costs of developing the design I don't think that what they charge is unreasonable.


Not at all, in fact a pittance. I once produced a set of Cad drawings for a Gauge 1 logging locomotive which took around 600 hours and I didn't create the design, all that was done by a chum, my part was to transfer his sketches into working drawings, so imagine how much more time a larger more complex project would consume - 1000s of hours, yet there are always a few who expect the drawings to be free. IMHO many of the drawings we have going back many years were essentially sold for the cost of printing and the designer or draughtsman simply did the work as a contribution to the model engineering world and to accompany the castings being sold.  I will agree that there are now quite old (and long ago amortized) design drawings being sold at what IMHO are excessive prices (by the usual suspects) however I also know that some of these older designs are still held in copyright and in a couple of cases a heavy royalty is being paid.


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## nev (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks all
Sorry I didn't mean to open a can of worms but my point is (and i give credit where due) is I did buy some drawing for $8 and they where email to me within hours but some sites want to send them via mail and charge $150+
I would agree that you get what you pay for but then again it depends whether the person is in this hobby to help others or make money!!!!

At this point I'm just new (Again) to all and am looking as to what is around with the view to build or plan to build in the not to distant future

Incidental where does one buy the drawing for the 1" Minnie design


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## GWRdriver (Jan 12, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> but then again it depends whether the person is in this hobby to help others or make money!!!!


Hello Nev,
I don't think this is a can of worms at all, but it sounds like you are saying that making money by creating and providing resources to the hobbyist is a bad thing. I spent my working life and made my living designing things and making drawings for others to build from so I'm always curious as to how one comes to the conclusion that I should provide them with design and drawings at no charge (and they often did.) The reason was they didn't value the work that I did, the attitude was usually "anyone can do that." As some one who can and has designed a number of projects, if drawings for a future project I wanted to do were available, I would GLADLY pay a reasonable price, maybe even an unreasonbale price to save me the many 100's of hours of sweat and toil I would expend doing it for myself.

Some years ago a new phrase appeared in the American political lexicon which was ". . for the Children." That phrase, when tacked on to every hair-brained self-serving political boondoggle was supposed to end all opposition because nobody wanted to be seen as being against anything that might help our children. Pretty soon, because it was so overused and misapplied, it became a national joke. Nowadays I hear the term "for the hobby" and it is almost always heard when someone wants something which they can't provide for themselves for free, and I've had it said to me a number of times. This doen't really mean "for the hobby" . . . it means for _Me_.

The 600 hours spent drawing I mentioned in my previous post was done for free . . .literally "for the hobby", at absolutely no cost to the publisher whose magazine published them, because I wanted contribute something to his publication and by extension to the hobby. I didn't make a cent on it AND I used up 600 hours I could have spent on one of my many unfinished projects but it was my contribution, in partial repayment to those who taught me through their writings, drawings, and such which I paid relatively little for and from which I built a life-long hobby and love. I am eternally in their debt. I now sell my drawings (those mentioned above - I retain the copyright) for $40 per set and I've sold a grand total of four sets. So far on that account I've stolen from the poor live steam hobbyist around 26pence/US per/hour for my labors. (Piracy! Highway robbery!) It's a known fact, and one which must be accepted by those who fancy entering the market, that no one ever got rich being a model engineering supplier. It can't be done, so in almost every hobby business, especially cottage industry businesses, there is a conponent of "for the hobby" whether it appears so or not.

I would agree with you on one issue (and I'm sure others also) that there are those suppliers to the hobby who expect too much, who we have to assume are innit for the money only. Here is the problem there . . . no one ever got rich making and selling 5 cheeseburgers a year. You can however get rich making and selling 5,000,000 cheeseburgers a year! Since there is very often only a market for 5 of this or that model engineering product per year, a set of drawings or castings for instance, you can readily see the problem for those who are innit for the money. Trippling the prices won't help. Another thing that must be taken into consideration is that we rely upon Industry for most of our goods so we are subject to the whims of industrial commerce. When the price for poured metals and associated labor goes up, the cost of our castings must go up. Which job would a foundary rather have, 5 sets of fiddly little castings which require lots of careful labor and have a high scrapper rate, or 500 castings which can be run with no extra care and near Zero scrapper rate? We find ourselves in a difficult, and costly, position. We are subject to many whims, almost all of them someone else's.



> Incidental where does one buy the drawing for the 1" Minnie design?


There is a book by the designer, Len C. Mason, title _Scale Model Traction Engine Building, Featuring Minnie_ [ISBN 9780853440772] which of course includes all the drawings. Or, the original construction series ran in the Model Engineer magazine from 1969 to 1970 and those volumes are no doubt available from back number suppliers such as Tee Pubs. BTW my understanding is that upon his death a few years ago Len's estate included the copyrights to his engine designs which he hoped would provide his son with a small but continuing income.


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## Jasonb (Jan 12, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> I would agree that you get what you pay for but then again it depends whether the person is in this hobby to help others or make money!!!!



Of all the designs I know they are all sold by companies so you have to expect them to make money. I would be interested in who you got a complete scale traction engione design from for $8. 

These companies have either gone out and measured full size engines or paid to buy the drawings from someone who has already done it, had to buy teh copyright or have to pay royalties on each set of drawings sold.

I also think that in most cases these drawings give good value for money. Its liekly to take you in the region of 1500hrs to make a scale traction engine thats $0.08 per hour, what other hobby would cost you less.

As for the Minnie, I built the one in my Avitar from teh book, these are out of print but come up on e-bay etc but most go for a good price, drawings can be bought here but I would say the book is the better option. You will see that these plans cost about half that of the Fowler from MJ engineering, thats probably because there are about half the number of parts.

Jason


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## nev (Jan 13, 2011)

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> I would be interested in who you got a complete scale traction engione design from for $8.



http://www.john-tom.com/ForSale/ForSale.html#TractionPlan
and 
http://www.steamech.com/model-engine-drawings.htm


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## shred (Jan 13, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> http://www.john-tom.com/ForSale/ForSale.html#TractionPlan
> and
> http://www.steamech.com/model-engine-drawings.htm



FWIW, the John-Tom plans and Steamech plans are both direct copies of Rudy's Model Steam Tractor (the J-T ones may be taken from the Popular Mechanics article from Feb 1971 (available on Google books)-- same model). I have no idea if the other two have legal rights to reprint them, but suspect they don't care.


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## Jasonb (Jan 15, 2011)

I also said SCALE traction engine, these are small look alikes not true to scale, like shred said these are probably still under copyright.

J


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## bambuko (Jan 15, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> ... and ...http://www.steamech.com/model-engine-drawings.htm


The constructional series for Ayesha appeared in English Mechanics between 8th August, 1930 and 18th December, 1931.
These guys claim to be selling "free" and "out of copyright" plans, making money out of people like you 
These are just pdf scans of old stuff, not proper plans.
Continue kidding yourself ;D

Chris


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## GWRdriver (Jan 15, 2011)

He's quiet now, or has changed names, but for several years there was an eBay seller named "DavesDrydock" who sold copies of plans and articles for hobbyists. Mostly these were copies of snipped construction articles and plans out of old magazines (Popular Mechanics, etc) but I know he sold at least 40 sets of plans for the Model Engineer Beam Engine which is still very much in copyright and in print. He suggested that his materials were "original drawings" but they were actually photocopies and anything less than glowing feedback got the buyer a quick and nasty negative feedback. That's how I ran afoul of him, I ordered "original drawings" (ie, zeroxes) and complained and then I got my instant feedback. He was volume seller so eBay was reluctant to take any action but finally about a dozen of his victims found each other and reported him as a group. Our collective objection was actually more for the undeserved negative feedback than for the crappy copies.

We will all have differing shades of opinion towards drawings and copyrights. Some of the above I would look at as "rescue" . . . the material in those old magazines can be very useful and unless they are snipped out they would probably disappear completely so I don't see that much harm has come to anyone's purse in those cases. But blatantly selling, for considerable profit, copies of current well-known in-print designs is to me another thing. Davesdrydock figured (correctly) that no one would take any legal action, because no one is going to prosecute an international copyright infringment for a couple of $1000 in value, but it's the principle of the thing.


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## nev (Jan 16, 2011)

GWRdriver  said:
			
		

> He's quiet now, or has changed names,



You referring to me??
If so why would I 
I was merely asking a question not meaning to open a can of worms
Gee I thought this forum was about helping others
Not criticising or proving others wrong


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## Jasonb (Jan 16, 2011)

No he's talking about "Davedrydock"

J


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## bambuko (Jan 16, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> You referring to me??


prickly, aren't we 



			
				nev  said:
			
		

> I was merely asking a question not meaning to open a can of worms


ones actions often have un-intended consequences 



			
				nev  said:
			
		

> Gee I thought this forum was about helping others


very much so, it's great place! 



			
				nev  said:
			
		

> Not criticising or proving others wrong


sometimes it's better to wait a bit before answering... often knee-jerk replies are later not the ones we are most proud of 

Lighten up, and bear in mind that once you post something on the interweb you expose yourself to comments from anybody/everybody - you might not like some of them 

Chris


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## nev (Jan 16, 2011)

Sorry
(Red Face)


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## GWRdriver (Jan 16, 2011)

nev  said:
			
		

> You referring to me??


Nev,
I was giving an anecdotal account of a personal experience I had with what IMHO was a "plans" scammer, such as refererred to by Bambuko. I thought someone might benefit from my experience.


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