# The Characters Who Train Machinists



## rake60 (Jan 26, 2010)

We are very fortunate here at HMEM to have a pool of experienced as well as less 
than experienced machinists and hobbyists who are more than willing to share what 
they know, or what they have learned along the way.

I am still amazed everyday by what this place has become.
And, a little frustrated by what the machining craft at large has become.

The crusty old craftsmen are dying off. 
They are being replaced by tall skinny guys with salon manicures who have never
actually touched a machine but their computer programs tell them that machine
is capable of performing that operation and it will safely be 5% below the maximum
it's maximum capacity. When the machine overloads it is blamed on operator error.
Computers don't make errors!

In the old days, if you suggested pressing a machine to that point, the operator
would still be blamed, but in a different way. It would have been the cranky old 
man standing there saying, *"Go ahead and try it. Whatever damage it causes that 
machine, expect the same for yourself!"*

When I was an 18 year old apprentice those old guys used to scare me to death.
I listened to their advice and learned a lot from it!

Somewhere along the line that became a twisted perversion of listening to the
geeks in an office. When a machine overloads and damage is done to it, the question
is inevitable. *"What Happened?"*

Gee, I don't know. It looked so good on a computer screen....

I do miss the wisdom of a REAL machinist teaching the apprentice.
He didn't have a degree, and more often than not, didn't even have a High School diploma.
He learned his craft by doing it for 40 years. The greatest I notice is he never used his
little little finger to push up his safety glasses while trying to make a point.

This hobby and the craft of machining are dying.
They are being taken over by technology of the day.
It is a very profitable means of making multiple parts.
I still believe there will always be a need for a real machinist.

Here it is a personal challenge to make a part that fits another part to make an engine run.
Elsewhere it will be a C-O-C print handed to a machinist who can make that part for an 
immediate need without the assistance of a programmer.

Would this be considered a rant?

I hope not!

Just my thoughts of what a machinist, professional or hobbyist, it today.
And, a big *Thank You* to all of the people who are still willing to share those
experiences and skills.

Rick


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## cobra428 (Jan 26, 2010)

rake60,
That's not a rant.....It's the truth. There is still some hands on machining for fixtures to hold the stuff in the "big box with the spray".
I'm a Mechanical Engineer and when I design certain things and go to the Proto shop I thank God there is 3 generations of machinist there.
Grandad 50 years of experience, son 30 years, grandson 2 years (he does the programing along with son). Grandad still works the Bridgeport and Claussing. When I need something done or need help, I go to Grandad. I'll hate to see the day he retires!

Tony


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## Deanofid (Jan 27, 2010)

Doesn't sound like a rant, to me. Maybe I have similar thoughts on the matter.

Dean


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## joeby (Jan 27, 2010)

Rick,

 Your post is only stating the facts, manufacturing is in a sad state.

 I started into the trade right after High School and served my apprenticeship in a shop full of men such as you describe. They took pride in their work, and the trade, and machining was considered a respectable career.

 Those days are unfortunately gone. I remember having been told that it was just a temporary situation and manufacturing soon would be back, strong as ever. May be, hopefully my kids will get to see it.

 Now, all the tools I had accumulated over the years reside in my home shop. I no longer work as a tradesman, machining is just a hobby now. I make the same hourly wage today as I did fifteen years ago as a toolmaker.

 So, that ranting describes what should never have happened, The skills, determination, and pride that show in HMEM posts no longer exist in the workplace. That's a real shame.

 Thanks for putting the time and effort into this site and making it what it is. It's great to be able to communicate with people who actually ARE interested in machining and metalworking, and appreciate the knowledge that goes with it. Keep up the good work!

Kevin


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## NickG (Jan 27, 2010)

Funnily enough I was just talking / having a rant along the same lines with a colleague. We're supposed to be creating a centre of excellence for machining yet can still struggle with basic things. The knowledge and experience is gradually disappearing.

Tony, we've got basically 1 guy - equivalent of grandad at your place, that people go to now if they want something done properly. He's probably the only one that is adept on a manual lathe / milling machine. What happens when he goes, he's approaching retirement. Companies need a robust method of retaining this knowledge and the only way that can happen is the real machinists teaching the apprentices.

Nick


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## gbritnell (Jan 27, 2010)

Rick, I understand what you're saying, to a point. I don't see it as a problem but as change. I apprenticed as a metal patternmaker. Today there are very few in this particular trade when at one time there were tens of thousands, why, change. In the teens and twenties almost everything had some type of casting as part of it, engines, light fixtures, door knobs, you name it. The patterns for these were made by patternmakers. As technology and manufacturing processes changed so did the trades that fathered them. Lets look at cars for example. I remember hearing old timers talking about getting 60,000 miles on their old Plymouth, look at the miles cars are capable of getting today. The oils of that era were paraffin based. When your 55 Ford starting making noise in the valve train a quick glance under the valve cover would show that everything was plugged up. The same with ignitions, 10-15,000 miles was about the limit for spark plugs, now they are capable of 100,000 miles. 
 Lets get back to the hobby we enjoy. It's true there aren't many old timers around to pass along all that great knowledge they had but that wisdom was used in manufacturing and that has changed. It's great to have forums such as this to share and pass along ideas and information about machining. When I go to the model engineering shows I look at the talent pool there and it's getting older and older. I don't believe that our numbers are being replaced at same rate as which we're losing them. It's all related to change. I'm sure the hobby will be around for many years after I'm gone but the only learning will be on line and or from books. Apprenticeships are gone, replaced by specialization and electronics, but that's the world we live in. 
George D. Britnell


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## black85vette (Jan 27, 2010)

George; I am in agreement with you. Change has had a major impact not just in machinist work but all over. I worked in electronics most of my life but saw the light at the end of the tunnel as an oncoming train and jumped ship. The need for highly skilled electronics techs has gone away as the cost of circuits has dropped to where they are expendable and not cost effective to repair. You see it in the way houses are built. Except for the high end luxury homes you won't find the fine cabinet and trim work of a master cabinet maker. Same with furniture.  I am not sad about this. It means I can afford to buy a car, a home, furnishings, computers and a bunch of other things because the cost of making them has gone way down. Things I could not possibly afford if they were all made by expert craftsmen.


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## cobra428 (Jan 27, 2010)

Vette,
Pretty soon you won't be able to afford the cheap stuff. All the mfg'ing and support job's are going off shore!!

Just my 2 pennies worth

Tony


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## Stan (Jan 27, 2010)

There will always be a need for skilled machinists, especially in the job shop. I went through the same progression in the electronics industry. Mass produced components on printed circuit boards made consumer electronics a through away item (even computers and TVs). Globalization eliminated most of the manufactures when they were absorbed by the giants.

That worked fine for the Ipod market, but what about the multi million dollar equipment that was no longer supported because the company was long gone. This opened up a gigantic market for the skilled electronic tech who could walk in, see a piece of equipment for the first time, and make it run. In some cases, it even involves making mechanical parts. A worn shaft will drive a $100k computer control crazy.

The same thing is holding true in the mechanical field. In my area there are dozens of job shops making parts for the oil industry. When a drilling rig that commands $200k a day breaks down, who do you get to make the part? The company that make the original was bought up by General Motors and Mr Obama doesn't know where they are now.


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## putputman (Jan 27, 2010)

Rick, your post brings back a lot of old memories. I started in the trade in the 50's. Over the next 10 years I worked for several differant companies. At each job there were a couple of old timers that would take me under their wing and mentor me. Since then I have done the same to several younger guys that I could see had a real talent for the trade. 

Now I am using any skills I have left to build hobby engines and am loving it.

I do watch these young machinist work with the CNC mills and wish that I was about 20 years younger now. I would sure as hell try to learn how to run one. When I follow guys like George Britnell making parts for his engines with all the intricate profile that requires a tremendous amount of skill and hand work, I think, wouldn't it be nice to have a CNC. I wouldn't trade the skills I have for anything but some of the new skills and equipment would sure be fun to go along with the old ones.


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## mcr (Jan 27, 2010)

New to the hobby with no experience I met a new member of the model boating club Mick just retired with over 40 years experience in engineering.We hit it off from the start and at his suggestion we both built a twin cylinder slide valve marine engine I was about 3 steps behind him.
Each week he told me how to achieve the next part of the build the *right way*.
After about 14 months the engine was completed the joy of seeing it run was fantastic.
Now to the point I work in a school a new state of the art school, show case we have even had a Royal visit.The new workshops have little more than a fret saw and a soldering iron for student use in addition to the usual handtools.Where will the next Mick come from?


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## kustomkb (Jan 27, 2010)

> Gee, I don't know. It looked so good on a computer screen....



I had a computer model sent to me which had .005" wide grooves .015" deep, running back and forth on the face of the part.

I made it, and when the kid came down to look at it, he sys "when are you going to put the grooves in?

I put it under the microscope so he could see.

"I didn't realise it was so small..."


Machines don't have an undo button like their computers do.


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## ieezitin (Jan 27, 2010)

Rick.
Its not a rant its your observation.

The requirement of Mechanical skills in our labor force has diminished substantially, which in turn the teachers are no longer needed. I dont like it but its a fact.

But I believe there is always going to be talent out there. Either mentor or student. Leonardo de Vinci, Isaac Newton both self taught masters in there subject.

Being a machinist or carpenter boiler maker, is a wonderful thing, but most of all I believe having those skills is an inward virtue, which in turn feeds the character of the individual, at the same time of allowing him or her to make a honorable living.

One thing in common of the aforementioned gentlemen is that there work and creations are still with us today, still being used and awed at, that was there contribution to society, but I really believe it was through there altruistic need to acquire knowledge and create art was there main inward driver.

Is it selfish to desire and find knowledge, gain skills and flourish? . Only if you keep them to yourself.

My mother told me two things in life to be true. Money is the rout of all evil and knowledge is power!.

Rick, I hear and understand your line of thought, youre a talented man with an abundance of skills, this is your opportunity to share your knowledge and pass on your acquired expertise to all here on this forum. Thus you will be contributing to overcoming the problem you have expressed in this post.

All the best.         Anthony.


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## ariz (Jan 27, 2010)

I liked to read this thread: many interesting points of view, everyone of which is respectable

but I have a (dumb) question: what it means 'rant'? :-[
I looked at the dictionary but didn't understand anyway...


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## cobra428 (Jan 27, 2010)

ariz,
You won't find "rant" in the dictionary.

Rant= Speaking your mind about something that annoys you

Tony


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## Maryak (Jan 27, 2010)

Tony,

Lousy dictionary you have mate: ;D ;D

Rant:
Use bombastic language - Declaim, recite theatrically; preach noisily
Piece of ranting, tirade; empty turgid talk.

Based on that lot Rick's initial post is definitely not a rant. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## cobra428 (Jan 27, 2010)

Bob

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

I like your dictionary better than mine!

Tony


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## mklotz (Jan 27, 2010)

cobra428  said:
			
		

> You won't find "rant" in the dictionary.



Sure you will...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rant


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## cobra428 (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey Marv,
Who would of thunk it :big:

I guess you

Tony


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## Troutsqueezer (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey guys, I just got into this hobby and I'm only 59 so there's some young blood in here now. :big:


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## cobra428 (Jan 27, 2010)

Trout,
I'll be 57 in a few months. I'm the baby of the bunch!
Actualy keleb is 15....I think he's about the youngest

Tony


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## bentprop (Jan 27, 2010)

I simply don't know which planet Government departments live on.I'm sure it's not the same one I populate!
Here in NZ,we had a program,which was giving unemployed people the chance to learn a trade through subsidised apprenticeships.According to the people actually running the scheme,it was extremely succesful,with over 70% of people getting jobs after participating.
Now,in it's infinite wisdom,the government has decided to withdraw funding,about half a million $,as they do not consider it "cost effective".
I presume they have a different calculator to mine,as paying the unemployment benefit not only costs more,but also creates social problems,such as violence,crime ,etc.
It is this sort of twisted thinking that is responsible for the decline in manufacturing skills.
I'm sure the same sort of thing goes on in government offices throughout the world.
I'm too old for it to concern me,but the young of today are going to be faced with a very strange world.Will a computer clear a blocked toilet?Build a house?Service your car?


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## GWRdriver (Jan 27, 2010)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Rant:
> Use bombastic language - Declaim, recite theatrically; preach noisily
> Piece of ranting, tirade; empty turgid talk.


EXACTLY the wording found in my Oxford Concise.


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## Maryak (Jan 27, 2010)

Harry,

Glad to see I'm not the only one who still has a book. :bow: :bow: ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## chillybilly (Jan 27, 2010)

I was lucky enough to have a good appreticeship on leaving school in mech eng .By 23 i could see the writing was on the wall ,i did some nightschool and entered a service trade when the redundanceys came .

Got my own garage shop sorted when racing m.bikes and couldnt make my own bits half financial and half because i felt that what i had learned was going to waste .

As less training is done in the practical trades and people do not want to work in a "dirty" job ,those of us that have half a clue on how to make something when you have not got the luxury of mega money CNC machines and there programmers just a centre lathe and a few tools will always have a part to play .

Chinese make the stuff ,we all use the stuff and when it breaks who fixes the stuff when replacements are not available/affordable?

An example being a chef /owner of a restaraunt i attend for day job was moining that replacement large cooking pans were real expensive s good as the "old ones" I took one home ,dilled out the worn handle rivets ,made some tophats which were threaded theplain assing into the handle for strength .He was so chuffed he gave me a load more to do ,then his chef mates started dropping them round to be done .

It all helps ,and needless to say i can always drop in for a swift lunch ,point being there will always be a place for people who can do stuff ,its just the rest of the world forgets everthing is made somehow ,the times i have oversized and retapped a hole at work to get something going ,and the fella i am working with looks at you like you have just performed a magic trickk ,they have not got a clue how it all works :big:

Rambling now ....need sleep ......


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## Blogwitch (Jan 27, 2010)

I have seen it happen all too often.

Boss of a small jobbing shop thinks he can make big bucks by going over to a CNC workshop because a customer has come up with a lucrative contract.

Gets a couple of second hand CNC machines in, a young programmer, plus gets rid of most of his old machines and staff.

Things go great for a short time, until the contract runs out that persuaded him to switch over in the first place. Then he has to compete with the big boys.

He can't get his prices down low enough to compete, and so goes under.

The jobbing shop, if run correctly, will never have to compete with the modern button pushing hi tech CNC shops. You are looking a two totally different products.

The way I personally see it, they are two very different industries, the hi tech one turns out pants polishing programmers and semi skilled machinists. Both of which are easily replaced nowadays. At one time, they were classed as super skilled, everyone and his dog thought it was the way forwards, but nowadays the industry is bulging at the seams with both, and can pick and choose who they take on.

The jobbing shop, on the other hand, will, if they take on apprentices, turn out highly skilled manual machinists, who will always be able to find work, or work for themselves to make a crust.

Now if you can train someone to do both types to a very high standard, that person will never go hungry.

I am the old jobbing shop type, who hopes to one day be able to do a bit of CNC machining. I might get there, I might not, but last year, even though only for a short while, I did prove to myself that I can easily make a living at it, if I ever need to, by using what skills I already have.

Getting back to training and showing people how to do things.

I am a great believer in passing information on, and even if just one person benefits from what I can show, then it is all worth my while. No one is perfect, and we all make mistakes sometimes, but if you don't even try, why bother?
To me, a picture on this site with a heading that says, 'look what I did last week', and nothing else, is not the way people should be shown. That just leads to frustration by the people seeing it, thinking that they will never be able to achieve it.

If you show something, also show and tell how it was achieved, otherwise you may as well post up pictures of roses growing in a garden, and saying you made them grow by putting BS around the roots.


Blogs


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## Deanofid (Jan 28, 2010)

Blogwitch  said:
			
		

> To me, a picture on this site with a heading that says, 'look what I did last week', and nothing else, is not the way people should be shown. That just leads to frustration by the people seeing it, thinking that they will never be able to achieve it.
> 
> If you show something, also show and tell how it was achieved, otherwise you may as well post up pictures of roses growing in a garden, and saying you made them grow by putting BS around the roots.
> Blogs



Well said, Blogs.

"Look what I did!" is almost worthless, and usually only make one person feel good.

"Here's how I did it" has true value. The person who did it can can know he's done well in sharing. The people who are watching can feel good about learning, about seeing how things are done that they thought they could not do, and witnessing the solution to things that seemed un-solvable.

We're lucky to have some of the latter types right here.

Dean


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## rickharris (Jan 28, 2010)

Change happens. New materials - Plastics, Graphite, Composites, Smart materials etc force or enable new technology to come into the manufacturing world. Sometimes for the better (sometimes perhaps not)

Few children these days have the hobbies we had, making do because there wasn't the commercial option, or building aircraft and other models. Most everything comes in a shiny sealed never to be opened or repaired box with a fairly limited life expectancy before being replaced by the newer latest model.

There is no longer an impetus for children to learn the skills or patience required to spend weeks manufacturing something that may or may not actually work in the end.

But then again this throw away society is what has fuelled our growing industry over the past 50 years and for many of the people here improved their standard of living and wealth beyond the imagination of their parents or grand parents.

The thrill of teaching is not in doing the job for them but in making it possible for them to learn how to do it. In old apprenticeship terms long periods of just watching with the occasional opportunity to have a go at something non-critical was the way to absorb the wisdom of the work place. Far too time consuming for today! Hence the odd belief that education will replace experience and everyone should have a degree.

It's easy to see why as lower costs allow people will replace the time spent to gain skills with a machine with those "skills" built in, much easier to mill a few 1/10's off a block than file them off, especially if you want it to be square and true when you finish.

Change happens, what is important is that some people keep the old skills alive for as sure as eggs are eggs at some point they will be needed and valuable.


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## SAM in LA (Jan 28, 2010)

The best thing about this site are the narratives/tutorials that the members post of there projects.

I have learned so much in the past few months by reading as many of the posts as I possibly can.

I acquired a 1994 ShopTask that needed a lot of tuning and repair. I did not know how bad of shape this machine was until I tried making a few of the tools that I read about here.

Last week, I built a Mill Tramming tool that a member posted. Because of the inaccuracy of my machine, I ended up making it twice. The first attempt got me close, the second one got me closer.


BTW, Thanks to Bogstandard for the tutorial of the Tramming Tool.


I need to replace the bearings for the lathe spindle.


Thanks :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: to all of you who are educating me in how to use machine tools.

SAM


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## Bernd (Jan 28, 2010)

Here's an interesting little story. If any of you have Guy Lautard's First Beside Reader there's a little story near the back, page 195 to be exact. It's entitled "Where Gears Come From" It was a story related by a marine engineer who had been in the business for 50 years.



> "Back in the late '30's I was working for Keystone Engineering, a jobbing machine shop in Los Angeles. I had just brought up a finished gear to the shipping department which opened out onto the street. As I was filling out the paperwork, a salesman walked in, said he carried a line of cleaning materials, brushes, etc., and wanted to know where he could find the shop foreman. I told him to wait right there because the foreman would be coming along in a minute or so.
> 
> "Fine," he aid. "By the way, what kind of work does this shop do?"
> 
> ...



Think about it a minute. This was in the '30's. Your knowledge is usually a product of your environment and your up bringing.

Bernd


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