# causing upset



## johnthomp (Aug 4, 2010)

i think its time for me to dissapear into my shed and give up asking for advice on this forum due to me and my questions raising serious concern with some of the older and more experienced members of this forum 
  i only joined this site originaly to gain knowledge of the best way to do things and or how to do things i cant understand wich is what i thought this site was about 
   before i joined here i was proceeding in so many unsafe practices it was unreal and more often than not lethal 
   so in the interest of not causeing any more upset ill just call it a day and just do things in my own way and off my own back i just wish my long time family freind and steam guru fred dibnah was still alive i wouldnt have to go elsewhere for advice anymore 
  so ill probably see evryone around sometime thats if i dont blow myself up with a boiler or something in the meantime 
 taa taa for now 
  john


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## radfordc (Aug 4, 2010)

Yes, I can understand you're feelings after getting "slapped around" by our "superiors". It's too bad that those who really know their stuff often choose to take the position of a "net nanny" to those who don't know as much.

Charlie


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## rleete (Aug 4, 2010)

Everyone does something boneheaded once in a while. Most of us get away with it due mostly to pure luck. Best not to press it and have something go wrong.

I'm not always the safest, but I try to follow most of the rules as much as possible.


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## FIXIT (Aug 4, 2010)

Don't go John,


We all (well may be some of us) have ideas from time to time and it;s nice to be-able to get advice on the validity of it but it would be nice not just to be 'told off' but to have it explained why,

I myself was warned not to do something but again no explanation why or the consequences ,but I'm to old to let it bother me,


Steve

I suppose I'm off to Coventry now as well


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## Jeff02 (Aug 4, 2010)

John, I share your pain. 
I too am NEW to this hobby and would hope that if I asked a question or made a statement about something that I was unsure of I would get a Reasonable answer. I think that is why we have this forum, so that we can ask and rely on the Experts to help. That is the VERY reason I am so hesitant to ask questions or post my thoughts.
I was always told the only stupid question is the one not asked. We should not worry of being slammed for asking Questions.
My two cents worth.


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 4, 2010)

Effective human communication depends equally on visual and audio cues the communicator sends out as well as the words themselves. The intended meaning of the words without the facial expressions and tone of voice can easily be misinterpreted by the reader. This is one problem with forums; humor, sarcasm, kidding around, can be hard to convey. Some people take a didactic approach to helping others which is their style and that's OK. I think it's important to consider the medium we are using here and we ought not take these replies as being preachy or condescending, regardless of how they read. 

Anyhow, the advice here is free. Take it how you can get it and it wouldn't hurt to keep in mind if you were talking to anybody here face-to-face and got the same answer but with a personality attached, you would find they are probably someone you would like to have a beer with. Oh, except for Dean and Zee, for those two, I'll need a martini... 

-Trout


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## Blogwitch (Aug 4, 2010)

> Yes, I can understand you're feelings after getting "slapped around" by our "superiors". It's too bad that those who really know their stuff often choose to take the position of a "net nanny" to those who don't know as much.



There is no such thing here as 'being slapped around', 'net nanny' or 'superiors', it was a genuine warning about safety, which if it is not stamped upon instantly could very easily become lethal. 

Would you use a pressure cooker as a steam source? Maybe not, but someone with less understanding could easily do so.

I would also like to point this out, which was written well before I noticed this post.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10151.msg112341#msg112341


Bogs


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## FIXIT (Aug 4, 2010)

This is he last time I'm going to involve my self in this thread but as i mentioned before a warning without an explanation confuses me.

Why not use a certified low pressure steam generator/pressure vessel as a low pressure steam generator ?

And the accent is on LOW PRESSURE

Steve

Where do i get my P45 from


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## Maryak (Aug 4, 2010)

Troutsqueezer  said:
			
		

> Effective human communication depends equally on visual and audio cues the communicator sends out as well as the words themselves. The intended meaning of the words without the facial expressions and tone of voice can easily be misinterpreted by the reader.
> 
> -Trout



Guys,

Trout has my vote. :bow: To a greater or lesser extent regular contributors usually manage to find themselves on one or the other side of this equation.

A PM to the perceived offender/offendee sometimes helps to clarify things. At least it's worth a try before you up the ante or pack up your kit.

Should this be one or two Bob's worth ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## seagar (Aug 4, 2010)

It is good to remember,you will catch more flys with honey than vinigar.

Ian (seagar)


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## bearcar1 (Aug 4, 2010)

John, I haven't been following the event or events that have led up to your decision to 'go to your shed and hide' and perhaps the advice that you were given about whatever it was that you were trying to learn about wasn't what you wished to hear, but rest assured, that the information, I'm sure was solid and was meant to keep you and or family/friends out of harms way. Please understand that many here have been in this hobby for many, many years and were once had similar questions but did not have the internet to turn to. The wisdom came from an old, what some believe to be archaic, means, and that was reading. The art of obtaining information from the written word. What I am attempting to convey here is that if you get put off by some of the answers you are receiving, maybe the questions aren't being asked correctly or are being interpreted as something that you truly are considering doing, or have done in the past and been extremely lucky to have done so without sustaining bodily harm or property damage. If that is the case than yes, I'm sure you ruffled a few feathers by your references to having done or consideration of doing something that you probably suspected at the time was dangerous. Again, I don't know what started this whole thing, but I urge you not to go away. On the contrary, 'do your homework' as it were, by researching the subjects of your questions from reputable sources such as technical books etc. The internet has some good reference materials but it also has just as much if not more terrible advice and examples so if you are uncertain, here or the library would be my top two choices to get sound advice. I can also speak from experience the frustration that comes from having someone ask me about how to do something and after going into great detail and length in putting together an answer or explanation for the inquiring party, have them return comments or other questions with complete disregard for what it was that I explained to them in the first place. So yes, I can see how some responses could be taken as a bit harsh or abrasive. My opinion, even though you did not ask for it, is to suck it up and mentally digest the information that you were given and continue to be an active participant here at the HMEM. This hobby is quite rewarding, BUT, it can also be harmful if the proper respect isn't shown towards the safety issues involved along the way. 

BC1
Jim


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## steamer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jim

Well put....Some of this knowledge has come through great effort and time and in some cases money spent learning how _not_ to do something.  That can be difficult to explain to someone and for them to understand unless you've "eaten the same dirt".

As mentioned before, a Forum can be a tough place as intents and inflections can be misconstrued as insults or disdain.....time to put on the thicker skin and spend some time posing the questions...and answers, carefully. I find sketches and pictures convey more than words could ever and they leave less to the minds eye for interpretation.  This is hard and I know it doesn't come naturally to me....I do my best and I'm still not very good at it but I'm working on it....A little courtesy and manners helps alot here.....in general, heap it on in large helpings!

I have not found anyone here who is intentionally arrogant, or finds it beneath them to help our new members. On the contrary, the older members of this forum go out of their way to try to help..and its expected that the other older members to behave this way...Its part of the culture of _THIS_ forum to do that. I can assure you there are other forums no where near as friendly to newbies....

in short

Be a student.....this is work...plain and simple....

Put thicker skin on.....everyone has a bad day....

Share the wealth...teach someone else what you learned

Get in the shop and get hopping.....take pictures! 

Be safe and have fun doing it!

Think Before you Do!

Hang around...it's nice to have you here! 

Dave


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## seagar (Aug 5, 2010)

As an outsider looking in ,What I saw was that the answer to the question wasn't the problem,but the arrogant manner in which the answer was given.There is no need for this type of reply.I for one will still visit this forum every day as usual, but I doubt that I will ever ask a question or submit any of my work or offer any advise in case such rudeness may come my way and ruin my enjoyment of this place and hobby.

Ian (seagar)


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## dsquire (Aug 5, 2010)

*This is a quote from the post of johnthomp*

_Re: is brass brazing rod a good thing to use on copper
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 11:40:49 AM »

	Reply with quoteQuote
   cheers fella ill just get some more silver solder then and not risk it and i was just going to use solid copper bar for the bushings in the idea that i only want a 20psi operating pressure as i have a compressor for anything higher and running in engines
regards
 john

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 01:03:59 PM by johnthomp » 
_____________________________________________________	
dont look at what something is look at what it can be
_

Gentleman

The above is what the post looked like *after it had been edited* after it was pointed out the possible dangers involved.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the original post to copy so I can only go by memory. I will not try to recreate the post as I can't remember it word for word but I do know that he was talking about pressure cookers for steam. I read the post before it was edited and thought to myself, here is trouble about to happen.

I believe that most of the posts made here in this thread were made after people read the revised post which puts a totally different view on things.

Cheers 

Don


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## Blogwitch (Aug 5, 2010)

Don,

Thank you.

I hadn't realised that the post had been edited to take out the major safety issue about using a pressure cooker for a steam supply, and maybe why people didn't see why I made such an issue of it.

Maybe we should just leave people to show what they want, and say nothing, hoping we don't have too many maimings or deaths because of it.

Safety has always been a major issue on this site, and it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to stop bad practices being shown or discussed.

Issues about safety need to be stamped on and made perfectly clear in no uncertain words. Not have the originator wrapped up in cotton wool and given a tap on the back of their hand. We could be talking about lives at stake here. 

I know some people think my attitude might be high and mighty and arrogant, but if it saves just one person having an accident, I'm very sorry, but you can kiss my pimply, hairy a**e. 

But just remember and think about it before you start to rant and rave, no ifs, buts or why-fors, it could be your life I save.


Bogs


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## tel (Aug 5, 2010)

Now I'm getting confused, this is the original, unedited, post. _query_;



> im thinking of useing a 4" copper tube to build a miniature lancashire boiler and was wondering due to its size should i use silver solder or would brass brazing rod do the job the same or better
> i just dont want to use brass if the heat required is going to obliterate the copper tube coz i cant get another tube
> reguards
> john



A straightforward question concerning suitable materials. No mention of pressure cookers, saucepans, frying pans or anything else. In fact, 'pressure cooker' does not occur in the whole thread, it is in this thread that it is first mentioned.

I suggest y'awl sit back, cool down, read both threads carefully and then politely raise any queries or objections.


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## arnoldb (Aug 5, 2010)

Tel, Bogs' reply was to the second post that johnthomp posted.

That second post has since been edited. Having seen that post myself before it was edited, I can fully appreciate and support Bogs' reply to the original unedited post. 
Unfortunately only half the facts are now visible - and it makes Bogs look bad because of the information that have been edited out.

Johnthomp's original question is valid as you pointed out.

Johnthomp - if you read this, please don't misunderstand my intentions. I feel you are most welcome to the board and the wealth of information available - sometimes its just necessary not to provide too much additional detail in a response 

Regards, Arnold


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## HS93 (Aug 5, 2010)

On another web site I visit a lot they where having problems with altered posts, people would make remarks about someone wait for them to read it and remove it.  the answer was a simple fix, the mods put a time limit on editing posts, also if someone post's another post that locked the previous post, you can still contack the mods to get a vital bit of info or an address altered , it fixed the problem 

Peter


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## Lakc (Aug 5, 2010)

HS93  said:
			
		

> On another web site I visit a lot they where having problems with altered posts, people would make remarks about someone wait for them to read it and remove it. the answer was a simple fix, the mods put a time limit on editing posts, also if someone post's another post that locked the previous post, you can still contack the mods to get a vital bit of info or an address altered , it fixed the problem
> 
> Peter



 In this case, the edit does not seem to be for any nefaroius purpose, as it removed what I would consider a "very bad idea" from circulation. This is the internet, however, and stopping subsequent people from drawing the wrong conclusions from a response to a now edited post is a skillset those people will just have to develop with experiance. 

 I will agree wholeheartly with trout, about how easy it is to misconstrue, or attribute negative connotations to an internet posting. That too, is a skillset one develops from experiance, and well worth having, as these messageboards are a virtual interactive library of information that is too valuable to do without.


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## tel (Aug 5, 2010)

OK, thanks Arnold, I only saw the post after the edit then. I've really been trying not to get involved in this thread but my feeling was that things were beginning to get a bit distorted. Also, I was not suggesting that Bogs was wrong in what he said, only that he could, perhaps. have said it a little better. 

Bottom line, I assume we are all gentlemen here (I know I am  ) so let's not let this thing get off the tracks.


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## johnthomp (Aug 5, 2010)

in the first instance the remark and reference to pressure cookers was that in the past i have used one to raise steam when i was younger and a lot more stupid and was useing this reference to bolster the fact of me starting to build a purpouse built boiler in the shape and form of my favourite type the lancashire boiler as i have a fair ammount of experience useing the half size one in fred dibnahs back yard where myself and my grandfather used to visit quite regularly 
  in the original post i agree that writing such a stupid thing was in evry respect irresponsible and just used my past antics ie: the pressure cooker experiment as an aid to bolster the need i have to create a safe device as i now have children and therefore do not have the luxury of being so daft anymore 
  but bogs must have took it the wrong way as he read that remark and was way too fast to point that safety issue out to me and i can see why pressure vessels are not something that should be messed with or improvised and i know this from bad experiences in the past and therefore dont want to go down that route again if i can help it 
  thats why i started the original post named (is it a good idea to use brass brazeing rod to make a copper boiler ) 
  last night i spent the best part of 6 hours traceing my family history to find where the 12th scale lancashire boiler or its drawings went after my great grandfathers death wich was used for demonstration purpouses towards new potential customers im then going to ask my grandfathers brother to see if he can get the original firm wich he still holds shares in to build one of these boilers for both myself and my great uncles use as he is an engineer of over half a centurys experience 
  i appologised for the offending remark on the affore mentioned thread so as it can be seen worldwide and i also thanked bogs for his input as sore as it was to take in at the time and then altered the thread in respect of bogs wishes as i was always tought to respect and take heed in what the elder gents say as they are talking from experience 
  i then wrote this thread on causeing upset because i had done and wrote on this site that people had pulled me on mainly our elder gents and one lady who took offence to 
 1 my foul language on some jokes in the humour section wich i apologised for 
 2 ideas and methods i mentioned that i use wich were corrected by someone else 
 3 my spelling and grammar if you can believe it 
 4 remarks regarding my ways of handleing situations mentioned on here 
 5 and now this mess for mentioning something from my past that im not proud of doing nor mentioning have done and do not wish to repeat doing it again 

   this thread was originaly just me saying to the people i have upset in the first place 
   from now on i will not be adding any more input to this site due to the rate of people basicaly telling me to shut up 

   im sorry for and i quote  (rambling on )  again but its just my nature stemming from haveing to justify my evry move as a child to my father 
  i now find the need to apologise for the way i am and am stepping back from posting with the theory that its the way i am that just aggrovates certain individuals 
FAO Bogstandard
please accept my apology for any inconveinience or stress all this may have caused you im not in any way a nasty man i never intended this thread to cause any upset nor hurt it was just me trying to say im takeing a back seat keeping my thoughts to myself but it seems to have gone the wrong way and caused more trouble than its worth :-[


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## Blogwitch (Aug 5, 2010)

John actually sent me a PM to apologise, but really there was no need. I am thick skinned enough for all to roll off like drops of water

If you get to see the original post, you would already realise that on my part, things were already forgotten about, before all this lot erupted, and was willing to help in any way I could.

But in all honesty, whether you like it or not, I speak my mind, sometimes a little bit too graphically, but under certain circumstances, it is required to be that way to get a short sharp message across, then forgotten about.

Of course, if people want to take it further, I still have a lot of energy and choice words left.


Bogs


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 5, 2010)

Bogs, if you have that much energy left, perhaps you could channel it into designing another engine like the Paddleducks which I have just started to build. ;D

-Trout


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 5, 2010)

johnthomp...I hope you stay.

As for this thread, I've struggled with it for the last half an hour. Very disappointing on a number of levels.

In any case...

Most of you know that not all teachers are experts. Likewise, not all experts are teachers. The ability to teach requires another skill set. So when I'm told something, I sometimes have to ask why. And then verify. ;D

Maybe this isn't the right question relative to this thread...but it got me curious...

If pressure cookers are not safe as a steam source (and I think any pressure vessel is to some degree unsafe)...then why? What are the dangers? I know even cooking can cause overpressure.

I came across this...

http://www.greensteamengine.com/

By the way trout...It's martiniS. My drinks are always in the plural...except for the last one...and the last one is never the first one. ;D


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## Dan Rowe (Aug 5, 2010)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...



Bogs, yes concern about safety is one of the main reasons that I read this forum. I do not think you have an attitude at all speaking the plain truth is simply that. 

Safety on a Merchant vessel where I worked is taken seriously there is no real medical assistance for several days days at a time. I did 25 years below decks with 10 of that running a gang. All of us made it back with the same number of parts.

As Bogs said the safety of this forum is the responsibility of ALL the readers.

Dan


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## radfordc (Aug 5, 2010)

I wonder the same thing as Zee...what's the deal with pressure cookers? When my Mom used one it had a little weight that limited the amount of pressure inside. If one were to pipe off some 15 psi steam what happens?

Yes, I realize that I have just inspired countless dimwits to go out and blow themselves up. Sorry.

Charlie


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## Troutsqueezer (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm the first to admit I don't know a dang thing about boilers....yet. But my spidey sense tells me that with a pressure cooker you have a powerful heat source (the stove) combined with a lot of water in the cooker, thus, the potential for a very large amount of steam energy. Now, from that you want to siphon off a very small amount of steam. I think that's a bad equation. It's like playing with matches next to a propane tank. You'll probably live...but maybe not. 

Dunno...just going with my survival instinct on that one. 

-Trout


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## tel (Aug 5, 2010)

Contrary to what their name would indicate, pressure cookers do not rely on pressure for the cooking process - the pressure is there purely to raise the temperature of the water by about 20°C (typically around 15psi) and the elevated temp does the cooking bit. I should be very surprised if any useful amount of steam could be generated in one unless the weight had been tampered with, *AND THAT IS A BIG NO NO.*

Best advice - stick to proven small boiler designs until you have _a lot_ of experience, then, and only them, you might venture into design/experimentation.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 5, 2010)

tel  said:
			
		

> until you have _a lot_ of experience, then, and only them, you might venture into design/experimentation.



Although a blanket statement, this is generally good advice. I include modifications as part of that experimentation. I sometimes wonder how drilling holes, etc. might weaken something.

Knowing something is safe is one thing. Knowing something is unsafe is another. Not knowing is, be definition, not safe. Thinking you know can result in gravestones with last utterances like..."Watch this!", "Look what I can do!", "You dare me!?"

Anyway...

I'm with you to some extent trout...my instinct is saying 'no' as well but I'm still trying to figure out the difference between siphoning off steam from a pressure cooker to siphoning off steam from a boiler. Both seem to be vessels of water with a heat source nearby. And then there's that link I posted...which I must admit I haven't had time to investigate further. It's also telling that I didn't find much else on the net.

I say this eye-ing my as yet untested little boiler with the trepidation of an inexperienced experimenter. ;D


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## Dan Rowe (Aug 5, 2010)

Zee and all,

A pressure cooker is just that any modifications to one will violate the makers warranty. Now it can not be properly be called a pressure cooker it is a boiler.

There are standard safety rules for boilers such as a hydro to twice the working pressure and a safety valve test at FULL FIRING RATE!!!! during the safety valve test the pressure gauge is not allowed to climb above 10% of the working pressure. 

A badly designed 15 psi boiler is way more dangerous that a properly designed and maintained boiler at several thousand psi. Even a vacuum implosion can cause some serious damage to a bystander with rebounding projectiles.

Dan


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## arnoldb (Aug 5, 2010)

Johnthomp, please, like I stated in my earlier post, I didn't want to be misunderstood. It appears that I was - by more people than yourself. Please accept my apologies for wrong wording on my part. I assure you , my intentions were good and totally without malice towards yourself. Sorry.

As to the pressure cooker question:

First off, I'll admit I also have limited experience of boilers, and I'll also admit at one point the thought to use one to power an engine crossed my mind as well.
I am more familiar with pressure cookers than boilers as I do like cooking myself and pressure cookers are a great time-saver for some homely stews. I'll give a bit of my thoughts.

There are a wide variety of pressure cookers available with different methods of controlling pressure. Some use screw-on spring loaded pressure regulators that act the same as safety valves on boilers. Others have a fancier "dial type" regulator to control pressure. I own and use examples of both these types to cook food to fill my tummy.
Other types of pressure cooker use a weight placed on a coupling at the top of the lid to control pressure - like has been mentioned in an earlier thread. Inevitably, the easiest one to use for potentially running an engine would be these ones, as the coupling is nothing more than a piece of pipe protruding from the lid, and the examples I've seen are just about the perfect size to shove a bit of pipe over. #1 BAD idea - read further...

Many (if not most) of the newer types of pressure cooker have a slot on the edge of the lid where the rubber sealing the lid to the pot can blow out under excessive pressure. These are sometimes prone to leaking, and I have to my horror seen people blocking these safety ports up. I have also seen pressure cookers with a rubber "safety plug" in the lid that would pop out rather than the slot on the side of the lid.

Having stated the above, inevitably someone wanting to use a pressure cooker to run a steam engine would try to connect a steam supply line to the pressure cooker. The easiest way and most obvious route would entail removing the purpose-designed and engineered pressure control mechanism and connecting the pipe there. That means there would be no form of pressure regulation left. <Maybe> the rim blow-out or safety plug blow-out could save one's butt - but that's not tested either. And some of the older type pressure cookers I've seen does not even have the rim or plug blow-out. So it's very likely that one might be totally over-pressurizing the pressure cooker - with no means to indicate such overpressurization.

There is the other matter of the state a second hand pressure cooker could be in after a yard/garage/flea shop sale by the time someone might be tempted to use it as a boiler... If it was deemed good - or bad as the case may be - enough to get sold off, either it was not working to its optimum use any more, or the person selling it needs cash badly. Nevertheless, it would be unknown, untested and potentially unsafe.

I have first-hand seen what an exploded pressure cooker could do to a kitchen (fortunately not my kitchen) - that's not a pretty sight, and fortunately no-one was in the kitchen when the pot went bang. That was in normal use - but the pressure cooker was filled a bit too full, and food bits clogged the pressure regulator.

I love live steam, and have been putting quite a bit of effort into research into boilers - and there is a lot of information to take in and digest on the matter. I'll definitely be building boilers in future - and some will be experimental, but built within good sensible guidelines and with a lot of calculations to check the designs and proper stress loadings and operating pressures.

Kind regards, Arnold


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## putputman (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks Zee, for asking that question. I had the same thing in mind. I have built several small "steam engines", that I run on compressed air. I like the sound and the effect of engines running on steam. It just looks and sounds differant. I have often thought of using a pressure cooker by just tapping into the cover and using it that way. My mother and my wife have used pressure cooker for year so they must be safe if used with the supplied safety valves.

I have moved on to I.C. engines and really didn't want to spend the time building a boiler. I have followed threads on building boilers and they require a lot off knowledge & time. Safety is probably the biggest concern with steam, but I really don't think a hole in the cover of a pressure cooker would be of great concern as long as the safety valves were in good condition.

The statement that Tel made about the amount of pressure and steam that a pressure cooker provides makes me think it would not be worth the cost & trouble modifying a pressure cooker to run these small engines. Is there another simple and inexpensive way to run some of these engines on steam or is the best advise to just stick with the compressed air.


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## Dan Rowe (Aug 5, 2010)

Pat,
The safety valve test is called the safety valve accumulation test in the AMBSC code. It is done with all the steam outlet valves closed and full firing rate. All the steam passes through the safety valve. If the pressure goes over 10% of the maximum working pressure the safety valve is considered failed.

This is a prudent test as the reliving capacity data is not usually available for model size safety valves. There are other rules on how to size a safety valve but the accumulation test is the final go no go test for the safety valve.

Dan


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## FIXIT (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes i fully agree anyboiler with easily modified safety devices are very dangerous as we all know the experimenters among us have the little man on our shoulders saying "if we just &$%#(*& that should be OK"

anyhow to maybe answer JorgensensSteam's question I've uploaded a PDF of testing model steam boilers to
Downloads and uploads.

Steve


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## johnthomp (Aug 5, 2010)

id just like to point out that as soon as i saw bogs response to the original cooker remark i altered /censored / erased the offending remark 
  forgive me if i have already said this before but i cant remember if i have or not anyway me head is a bit of a mess right now with some family issues between my brother and mum


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 5, 2010)

Excellent replies, thoughts, and experiences.

I'm in no position to give advice but...perhaps a summary of what everyone is saying?

"It's dangerous to modify (or use) a tool (pressure cooker) to do something it wasn't designed to do (run steam engines)."

You have to really really know what you're doing and the possible consequences (or at least know they exist).

...happy that this thread has turned positive.

Just saw your reply johnthomp...I hope things work out soon.


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## johnthomp (Aug 5, 2010)

hopefully theyll be sorted out on sunday when i visit me mum if need be ill just exert some big brother warnings towards him hes just getting outa hand lately personally i think hes still doing drugs and needs a slap


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## Ned Ludd (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi Guys,
If you want just one good reason for not using a pressure cooker as a boiler, how about a lack of a water level indicator.
Ned


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## SAM in LA (Aug 5, 2010)

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Excellent replies, thoughts, and experiences.
> 
> I'm in no position to give advice but...perhaps a summary of what everyone is saying?
> 
> ...



This brings to mind one of my favorite Southern quips

"Last words of a Southerner, Hey y'all, watch this."

 :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big: :big:

SAM


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## radfordc (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm sure using a pressure cooker must be dangerous as hell...or Bogs wouldn't have made such an issue of it. But I haven't seen one response yet that makes the case. We know that millions of pressure cookers are used every day with few accidents. We know that fundamentally a boiler is only a specialized pressure cooker and vice versa.

We've heard about too much fire and water...so turn down the fire and don't fill the pot. We've heard about disabling the safety valve...so don't disable the valve. We've heard about no sight gauge...so don't run the thing more than five minutes at a time.

Come on guys, what's the real reason?

Charlie


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## steamer (Aug 5, 2010)

SAM in LA  said:
			
		

> This brings to mind one of my favorite Southern quips
> 
> "Last words of a Southerner, Hey y'all, watch this."
> 
> ...



Already taught my kids that....if someone says that, take three steps back.8)...they do it automatically

I've heard horror stories about all kinds of things being turned into boilers...bottom line, turning anything other than a boiler into a boiler gives engineers nightmares.

A pressure cooker might seem reasonable...but at what pressure will it relieve pressure, many of them have safety valves that are stuck shut from bad water or food remnants.  What are the materials for construction?....heavy stainless or cheap china mystery metal...how did you hook a pipe to it...with duct tape or silver solder. Does it have a crack where Aunt Martha dropped it down the stairs...I mean come now guys

Everything stated that is "not needed" comes from someone who perhaps hasn't run a boiler..." Come on, what's the real reason?"  Well when things go pear shaped, and they do! those superfluous things come in mighty handy.....From myself and others here who have run boilers....DON'T use cookware for a boiler....no good will come of it.  

And for the record ....I'm not being arrogant, or mean or selective in my assistance....What I want is for you to not blow me up or *#& off enough politicians with stupid and tragic acts that I can't run a hobby boiler ANYWHERE. 

 I have met some of these people who slap it together with little thought, I saved a boiler once in the hands of a fool who let it and his feed tank run dry and thought it best to stoke the fire.....when the safety lifted at 160, I opened the furnas door and an armload of burning firewood came out...The inside of the boat was painted gray as was ALL the plumbing...no time to trace the rats nest of pipes, so I started shoveling the fire overboard as fast as I could because I was looking into the open firebox door of a rapidly emptying boiler...kind of like looking down the barral of a loaded shot gun...when I emptied the grate over the side, I looked at the glass...empty...the safety was singing at 180!......safety not sized correctly!  I closed the door and got off the boat to the groans and protests of the clueless around me who complained of me soiling their lake with burning firewood...made me say all kinds of bad words! :redface2: Come to find out, the owner left the boat to his cousin, who knew NOTHING of steamboats, boilers or what have you....as I got off, he was coming back from the package store with a case of beer.... :redface2:  There were 40 people standing around that boat on the shore where it was tied up.....what if I hadn't pulled the fire?  nuf said.  I am sure others with much more boiler experience here on this forum could tell far worse tales...

There are rules and guidelines to put a hobby boiler together...learn what they are and how to do it. It isn't rocket science, or black art, just effort and practice...and its there to help you be successful.

Steam is a wonderful, terrible thing. ..it shows no mercy or pity....It doesn't care what your bank account or address is, and couldn't care less about your feelings....treat it as it is, for what it is, with respect....and I mean absolute respect.

Why the rant?  I care, about the hobby and my many friends in it.....OK! enough of this silly dribble...lets go build something.


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## zeeprogrammer (Aug 6, 2010)

Seems like the common theme isn't so much about the tool itself (pressure cooker or not) but the lack of knowledge in using it. Steamer's example is a case in point. It wasn't the boiler...it was the guy running it. Brings us back to the fundamentals...

Don't use a tool in a way it was it wasn't intended for.
Don't use a tool unless you know how to use it properly.

And if you do, and survive, let others know. Better to appear 'less than smart' and save another soul.

We learn as much from failure as from success.


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## Blogwitch (Aug 6, 2010)

I just wish this post had died a death almost as soon as it started, purely because it has brought the discussion about PC's even further into the public eye, and by some of the responses, they could be construed by a total beginner as being a genuine way to go.

Why did I raise the remarks I did?

As I have said before, this site is very safety conscious, and as such, because PC's can not be controlled by general laid down specifications as a correctly made boiler can, it actually comes under experimental ideas, such as a sealed tin can full of water, with a pipe sticking out of the top to supply the steam. In other words, not to be recommended, and as such, should definitely not be shown or discussed on here.

Warning, DO NOT USE A SEALED TIN CAN WITH A PIPE STUCK IN THE TOP AS A STEAM BOILER.

In fact, in the early days of this site, I recommended that boiler builds shouldn't be shown at all, not as a killjoy, but because it raised a lot of safety issues about people copying what was being shown, and who were not experienced in the building of boilers, having a go at lashing one up in their workshop, and be liable to have an accident.
So any boiler builds you do see, should always stress that the correct materials are used and every stage is done in a recognised and safety conscious manner.

I recognise that people would like to make their own boilers, and that is why the experienced amongst us are always on hand to show and teach, if necessary, the correct way to go about it. If that backup wasn't there, I would, in all honesty, still be pushing the bosses for boiler builds not to be shown. 

It is not me being a nanny at all, but a person who has seen the aftermath of too many accidents, and would like to think that by my actions, I have maybe saved someone having one.

Now back to the subject matter.

Of course PC's produce pressure, and supposedly, could in theory, with a little modification, run a small engine. But in my, and most probably a lot of other peoples views, it would most probably be an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately, the modifications required, wouldn't, under any circumstances, render a PC to be classed as a recognised and safe model boiler.

BTW, while you are at home, you seem to think you can do whatever you like. But if the truth were sought, and an accident did occur whilst experimenting with a "boiler", I think you would find your normal household and life insurances would be null and void, and you would certainly have some sort of government body breathing down what was left of the back of your neck.

Also, and this is correct in the UK, and maybe the same in other parts of the world, you are required to have a minimum of a specialised third party insurance cover whilst running a live steam engine, not just in other places, but in your own home and grounds. That is because even members of your own household are classed as third party, and they can also sue your a**e off if they get hurt.

I now hope that explains why it was done.

Bogs


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## tel (Aug 6, 2010)

radfordc  said:
			
		

> I'm sure using a pressure cooker must be dangerous as hell...or Bogs wouldn't have made such an issue of it. But I haven't seen one response yet that makes the case. We know that millions of pressure cookers are used every day with few accidents. We know that fundamentally a boiler is only a specialized pressure cooker and vice versa.
> 
> We've heard about too much fire and water...so turn down the fire and don't fill the pot. We've heard about disabling the safety valve...so don't disable the valve. We've heard about no sight gauge...so don't run the thing more than five minutes at a time.
> 
> ...



The 'real' reason is to try and stop y'awl blowing yerselves sky high. Think on this - a pressure cooker is designed to run at a relatively low pressure, typically 10 - 15 psi - the vessel is probably safe to around twice that, BUT in order to tap off usable steam you would have to modify the pc to some extent, almost always the novice would got for the relief valve arrangement as being a convenient point of operations and that's really, really dangerous stuff. Remember we are looking at a simple pot - no stays, no water level, no real heat regulation, no pressure gauge. :hDe:

A miniature boiler, on the other hand, is designed for the purpose - my steel boiler was hyro'ed at 200 psi, built for a SWL of 100 psi yet I only run it at around 40 psi. In short, I have a BIG margin of safety, something that is lacking in a modified pc.

Still, if y'awl wanna blow yourselves into a zillion bits who am I to say no? Just don't tell anyone I recommended the practice.


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## lordedmond (Aug 6, 2010)

Re boilers for steam generation

The only point to consider is that ALL boilers must be constructed to the code that is applicable to the country that you reside , that is one reason to at least state your country.

IMHO saying that the boiler is for my own use does not cut it , nor does constructing to old out of date designs that were ok in the year that they were drawn eg LBSC ones do not have bushes in them he/she just said drill and tap the shell screw in and caulk with soft solder ( this method does not comply with any code i know of )


Please guys/gals be safe and only construct the boilers to code they have been drawn up for a reason , what was ok in the past has no place in todays world 


for a loco just think where the boiler is when you drive the loco ( between your legs  ) and for a stationary one think of the children /grand children and great GC if you are that lucky 

Stuart


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## Kermit (Aug 6, 2010)

Just to increase the controversy and perhaps point out a small level of irony on the 'safe' way to do things.

Released just last Month - and it can be yours for only $14,500, or so. The complete AMSC regulations covering boilers and boiler making.

 :

Yes, let's stress safety, BUT let's keep the average Joe from EVER being able to discover what the rules are. Now would someone tell me WHY such an important safety document as this would be so extremely out of reach for almost everyone in the country?

Seems Safety and Accessibility are fruits of two very different and widely separated trees.

Just saying...

Kermit

Edit: as pointed out below, I should have said ASME, not AMSC. -I blame a lack of coffee for that.  :big:


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## putputman (Aug 6, 2010)

I have heard enough to convince me to give up on the pressure cooker idea. I will be content running my engines on compressed air. 

Thank you all for carring on with this discussion long enough to maybe educate a few of us on dangers of steam in the hands of the novice.

Tel, your answer is what I was looking for.


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## GWRdriver (Aug 6, 2010)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> Released just last Month - . . . The complete AMSC (sic) regulations covering boilers and boiler making.


Kermit,
Do you mean the ASME?


> BUT let's keep the average joe from EVER being able to discover what the rules are. Now would someone tell me WHY such an important safety document as this would be so extremely out of reach for almost everyone in the country?


Because we are hobbyists, not industrial power boiler builders, and we don't need to see all of that document. In the case of the USA, the FIRST step for anyone contemplating a model boiler is to determine if there is a local live steam or model engineering group and look for a member or members who have made boilers or who keep abreast of the boiler regulations for model builders in your State. YOUR STATE is the key because your State boiler law (or the state in which you plan to operate) which is almost always a distillation of the $14000 document, is what will set the regulations for you. You may find that your state has exclusions (one paragraph in all of that $14000/worth of code) that excludes your proposed boiler from those requirements. Once you determine what regulations and restrictions apply to you (or not - due to exclusions) you can then choose (or be directed to) one of the several respected model boiler writers (ie, Martin Evans, KN Harris, AMBSC, UK Federation, Kozo, etc) which taken together create a set of "codes" for world model boiler builders the thoroughness and safety of which is better than it has ever been, although there is of course (always) disagreement on details. This process, and what will regulate specifically you want to do, is not NEARLY as difficult as some people try to make it out to be.

Another consideration is that not everyone who is a live steamer or model engineer who claims to be an experienced and knowledgeable boiler person, is. Individuals also have opinions and agendas and some of those are not in your or the hobby's best interest. Doing things on the cheap and quick would be one of those agendas. There's nothing wrong with being economical and saving money, but to base advice upon what is cheapest and quickest, rather than what will be safest, is in none of our best interests. Other agendas are doing things because that's the way it was done in full size, or that's the way we do it down at "the Plant". There might be coincidental overlap but the world of model boilers has its own good safe technology. Find out what your State has to say, get several local opinions, do some reading, ask questions here and on other sites, and make your decision.


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## johnthomp (Aug 6, 2010)

one final thought on this matter i find the safest way nowadays especialy with my 2yr old daughter being fascinated with these little engines and seeing them run i just use the pipe and valve off an old footpump conected to an old spare wheel off my car up to 20 psi them let it run down with constant undivided supervision i find this to be the safest way to run engines where kids are involved and who could have believed it half the fun for her is pumping the tyre up it knackers her out good and propper and she normaly sleeps all night no probs then 
  the real bonus is shes hopefuly the next generation interested in this subject and isnt it true to teach children as young as possibe road safety the do's and dont's why not teach her model engine safety as early as possible aswell


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## Dan Rowe (Aug 6, 2010)

Quick and dirty is a phrase that should never be used in boiler work of ANY size. Using a PC can only be described as quick and dirty.

From an engineering stand point a simple "pot" boiler is the most inefficient type. Add to that an opening with a cover large enough to give you a quick trip with flashing lights...  if you are lucky, and as Bogs stated there is NO WAY this would EVER be an approved boiler by any Live Steam Organization model or not.

For those who live in the United States and have a need to read the boiler code for your State check this thread:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8846.0
This is the first thread I started on this forum and I was impressed that there was not the usual lack of respect for SAFETY and codes witten so engineers the world over can design pressure vessels and other equipment with SAFETY.

Dan


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## Cedge (Aug 6, 2010)

Anyone considering a using a pressure cooker in such a manner should take time to ask Brian Rupnow to recount his Sunday Dinner saga about cooking a chicken in a pressure cooker with no safety valve. Hilarious story, but it brings home the point that when things go pear shaped, they get there fast and and with really serious destructive force.

I too was originally against the boiler forum, for many of the same reasons Bogster mentioned. As more and more experienced boiler builders came on board, my concerns were eased and the forum seems to have become a hit with the membership. The discussion being held forth within this thread is a positive thing, in that it has addressed the sheer folly of trying to "make do" when considering pressurized steam generation. There simply aren't any safe corners to be cut when you are playing with a potentially explosive device. 

A properly made boiler in the experienced hands of someone who knows how to safely operate them will be perfectly safe. That same boiler, in inexperienced hands becomes an accident waiting to happen. Take time to learn the ropes. Ask for advise, compare said advise by seeking more advise and then read all you can find on the subject. Then ask for advise again. 

I've seen videos on Youtube where it was obvious the person shown was wading in the dangerously shallow end of the human gene pool. Several showed attempts at making boilers from tin cans, empty gas bottles and my personal all time choice for the Darwin Awards.... a glass wine bottle heated on the stove. I guess there is some small comfort in the thought that these guys aren't likely live long enough to breed.

I've been called to task on a couple of occasions by someone who claimed small boilers can't fail in a violent manner. Supposedly they simply vent harmlessly at a seam and present no real danger. Having seen the end results and having been asked to submit affidavits in a couple of injury/liability cases, I can attest to the destructive force of even small boilers when they've been abused or badly maintained.

Of all the ways I can think of to get hurt while practicing our hobby, being bodily pierced by flying flak while my skin bubbles and melts, as super heated steam attacks my lungs just never seems make it to the top of my most preferred list.

Steve


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## Dan Rowe (Aug 6, 2010)

steamer  said:
			
		

> I saved a boiler once in the hands of a fool who let it and his feed tank run dry and thought it best to stoke the fire.....when the safety lifted at 160, I opened the furnas door and an armload of burning firewood came out...The inside of the boat was painted gray as was ALL the plumbing...no time to trace the rats nest of pipes, so I started shoveling the fire overboard as fast as I could because I was looking into the open firebox door of a rapidly emptying boiler...kind of like looking down the barral of a loaded shot gun...when I emptied the grate over the side, I looked at the glass...empty...the safety was singing at 180!......safety not sized correctly! I closed the door and got off the boat to the groans and protests of the clueless around me who complained of me soiling their lake with burning firewood...made me say all kinds of bad words! :redface2: Come to find out, the owner left the boat to his cousin, who knew NOTHING of steamboats, boilers or what have you....as I got off, he was coming back from the package store with a case of beer.... :redface2: There were 40 people standing around that boat on the shore where it was tied up.....what if I hadn't pulled the fire?  nuf said. I am sure others with much more boiler experience here on this forum could tell far worse tales...



Well done Dave,
It is a true engineer who stands his ground in the face of real danger and does his duty. I take my short brim canvas cap off to salute you.

Dan


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## steamer (Aug 6, 2010)

Dan,

I read this earlier today...and I don't know quite how to answer it.

I thank you for your comments, It means a lot me coming from someone of such obvious experience..I dare say WAAAAY more than I....

I was trained by someone who didn't mess around...I think my actions were just that trained response. I didn't start shaking until later :

Thankyou!...but be assured...my life would be no less rich and enjoyable if I wasn't involved in that little drama in the first place.... 

I brought that story up, as it was a moment for me after which I started taking life a little more seriously.  I can promise you my relationship with steam got a good bit more serious after that.  But I was using the story to point out that the "bits" strung all over a boiler aren't there just to be polished...they are there for a reason...they are tools.....I know you know that....I hope others do now.

So I guess , what Iam saying is....If anything..tip your hat to the man who trained me.  I think he had more to do with it.... 

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow (Aug 6, 2010)

Grandmas pressure cooker

When I was a kid, my family never considered itself poor. We always had some kind of clothes to wear, and we never went to bed hungry. My mother had 5 brothers and sisters, and consequently I had about three thousand cousins all close to my age. Every Sunday, we would all gather at Grandma and Grandpas little house for Sunday dinner.
	Now as I said, we never considered ourselves poor, but that didnt stop us from dragging the odd thing home from the local dump, after a garbage run, that looked like it might still have some life in it.
	This was about 1952, and the real Must Have cooking item that year was a pressure cooker---Why, you could put the toughest, scrawniest, old rooster into a pressure cooker, and after about 4 hours at 250 PSI it would be tender as a young chicken.Only thing was, nobody in our family could afford to buy one.
	My uncle made a dump run one Saturday, and there in the dump was an almost new pressure cooker. (These were a big heavy aluminum pot about 16 in diameter and 16 high with a heavy lid which dogged down into place with clamps big enough to use on the watertight bulkheads in a submarine). The only thing missing was some little valve thingy on the lid, that had broken off.
	My uncle quickly grabbed the pot and the lid and dragged it home to grandma. Now my uncle was a very handy sort of fellow, so before he gave the pot to Grandma, he whittled a nice hickory plug and pounded it into the hole where that little valve thingy had broken off.
	Now Grandma, who was even poorer than the rest of us, (grandpa was too old to do much real work by then, and the government pension wouldnt buy much beyond a sack of potatoes and 2 plugs of Redman chewing tobacco)---she was ecstatic, to have an almost new pressure cooker.
Come Sunday morning she sent grandpa down to the chicken coupe with an axe to dispatch the toughest, oldest, meanest rooster and get him ready for the pot.
	She plucked said rooster, and into the pot he went with some water and some salt and whatever else you use to cook a chicken (Hey, Im an engineer darn it, not a cook!!!) and set it on the back of the woodstove to simmer all day.
	About 3:00 in the afternoon all the various aunts and uncles and cousins rolled into Grandmas little house, and the aunts were all proudly shown the New pressure cooker. They admired it, and even aknowledged what a clever fellow my uncle was to whittle a good plug that didnt leak any for that little part that had broken off the top of the lid.
	Everybody was crowded into the little parlor, gossiping and yacking as familes at grandmas always do, and smelling the great smell of chicken cooking---by that time a bit of chicken laden steam was escaping around the edges of the lid.)
	As the visiting went on, and the smell of cooking chicken and dumplings got even better, somebody looked out into the old summer kitchen and noticed that there seemed to be an awfull lot of steam coming out from around the edges of the lid on that pressure cooker, and that it (The pressure cooker) seemed to have taken on a life of its own, and was starting to jig around a bit on the top of the stove.
	This was a bit alarming, so my uncle who had brought home the cooker was elected to go into the summer kitchen and shove the new cooker to the back of the stove, off the heat.
	He made it as far as the archway going into the summer kitchen, when she BLEW!!! There was a deafening roar, the clang of a 16 aluminum lid ricoshetting around the kitchen, and a massive cloud of chicken laden steam swept out of the summer kitchen into the parlor.
	Women were screaming, kids were bawling, and my uncle came flying out of the kitchen covered in hot water and chicken goo.
	Everybody ran outside the little house, and when things calmed down a bit, and all the mothers done head counts of all the children, my poor uncle who was terrified (and only scalded a little bit) was sent back into the house to see what had happened.
	Then we heard the laughter start from inside the house. We all looked at each other, thinking perhaps that the explosion had addled my uncles brains. He began shouting Come in here---You gotta see this!!!
	So---We all filed cautiously back into the house, through the remnants of chicken flavoured steam,---and---There on the ceiling of the summer kitchen was our Sunday dinner!!!
	SPLAT!!!----there was that poor old rooster, totally embossed into the ceiling, dumplings and all.
 That little thing that had been broken off the lid was the SAFETY VALVE!!! When my uncle whittled the hardwood plug, he had unknowingly created a BOMB!!!
	Needless to say, that is one Sunday dinner that I will always remember, even though it happened more than 50 years ago.---Brian


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## SAM in LA (Aug 6, 2010)

Brian,

I always enjoy your stories.

If you had posted it at the beginning of this thread, the thread would probably not been so long.

SAM


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