# Santa came early



## Cedge (Dec 12, 2008)

Just unloaded and uncrated the new C4 lathe and wrestled it onto the counter top. Will be doing the red grease shuffle, most of this evening. Photos to follow in the "Show Us Yours thread, once I've fought the red grease to a draw. 

I know... I know.....
Worthless post without photos, but humor me....LOL

Steve


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## CrewCab (Dec 12, 2008)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> I know... I know.....



Hey .............. no pressure Steve ......... honest ......... 



I'll check back in an hour or so 

CC


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## Maryak (Dec 12, 2008)

Good one Cedge,

Wanna borrow my camera....... :

Best Regards
Bob


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## ksouers (Dec 12, 2008)

Steve,
Are ya done yet?

Kevin


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## rake60 (Dec 12, 2008)

What?
No pictures yet?? 

Rick


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 12, 2008)

Eric


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## malcolmt (Dec 12, 2008)

OK ANY PICTURES YET. I'M BACK FROM THE PUB NOW !!!!!

Malcolm ??? ??? ???


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## Cedge (Dec 12, 2008)

Hold the posse there compadres.... it aint quite soup yet. I got shanghaied into going Christmas tree shopping right after I posted and now SWMBO says it needs lights the on it so she can hang the doodads and gegaws.... Quality time with the grandlads doncha know. I'll post visuals in a bit....(evil grin)

Steve


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 12, 2008)

Steve,
I am having trouble seeing your pictures. I'm sure the problem lies with my computer, so I will just go out and buy and new one :big: I am anxious to see the C4 since that was on my buy list at one point.

Cheers,
Phil


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## ksouers (Dec 12, 2008)

Hmm, where's the smiley with the rakes and pitchforks....


 ;D


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## Maryak (Dec 12, 2008)

Try Here,





















http://emoticons4u.com/evil.htm

Bob


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## Cedge (Dec 12, 2008)

Hmmmm... just saw on the nightly news that the local authorities had spotted an unruly torch lit mob in this general vicinity. Naaaa..... couldn't be related to this thread.

Ok.... you asked for it, but the first one mentioning the red grease gets it right between the eyes with a frozen halibut. I didn't get long to do any degreasing tonight... but there is one very nice looking Christmas tree in the other room...(grin) 

The first glance at the C4 says "mini lathe". Then the second look says "wait a minute... small.... but not mini" By the 3rd look, you've begun to see some nice looking differences. It's 250 pounds of solid bench top iron. 






The headstock is much larger than the C2 and the electronics are quite a bit more complex. All the controls are touch pad and have a nice feel, very much like the X3 mill. It came with a 4 inch 3 jaw chuck which will soon be replaced with a 5 or 6 inch version. 100 rpm is the lowest speed but the 1000 watt motor is up to delivering full torque through out the spectrum, topping out at 2000 rpm (and that's moving my friend). No back gear, but the electronics package compensates to keep low speed torque at constant usable levels.






The saddle is MASSIVE for a small mill like this. It has cross feed, normal lead screw feed and a low speed lead screw feed option. one negative.... cross feed is dictated by the direction the Chuck is turning. This will soon be addressed by making the lead screw power feed independent from the spindle drive train. For now, the instant spindle reversing feature will keep me out of trouble.






The cross slide and compound both have T slots, so I'm going to have fun finding a whole new bunch of tricks and configurations to use. The compound is mounted with 4 bolts, addressing the well known weak point of the 9x20 lathes. Plenty of oil ports are evident and split nuts on the lead screws make for easy back lash removal. I'll be experimenting to determine just how large of a piece of metal the tools can reach, but it already appears to dwarf the stock C2 in cross slide travel. And yes... it appears that the same extended travel cross slide mod used on many C2 lathes can be adapted to this one as well.






The tail stock taper comes in MT2 and the unit is stock with a clamping leaver which makes a very positive lock with very little pressure required. It has its own "prism" style bed way. The bed has dual prisms, one for the saddle and one for the tailstock






Overall first impressions.... Sieg took time to think things through pretty well before they went to production with the C4. The actions are silky smooth with no noticeable lash. The mass of the machine gives it a different, more capable feel. I've made only 4 or 5 cuts so far, but the difference in feel of the C2 and C4 is immediately notable. Fit and finish is (so far) comparable to the Sx3 mill I recently purchased. This one once again takes Seig a positive step away from the "kit" machines we all know them so well for. 

More to come as I get things sorted out and cleaned up a bit more. 

Steve


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## rake60 (Dec 13, 2008)

Sweet!


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## Maryak (Dec 13, 2008)

Steve,

What a nice piece of machinery. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob


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## ksouers (Dec 13, 2008)

Steve,
Nice introduction to the machine. Many thanks.
So far as I can tell Travers is the only retailer of the C4. And mighty proud of that fact, so it seems by the price.
Did you look at the C6 at all? Can you say why you picked the C4 over the C6?
Grizzly has the C6 for a bit more than half the price of the C4 and with more accessories.

The advantages I see for the C4:
Smaller footprint
Power cross feed
Variable speed motor
More power
No shipping (in your case)

I'm not trying to push the C6, just curious why you picked the C4.
I'm also quite interested in how this machine works out for you. How the fit and finish is an improvement over the C2. Looks like a very nice machine, much more sturdy than the C2. The general quality seems a bit better, as well. I noticed a threading dial is missing. Does it have one?

Ever curious Kevin


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## Cedge (Dec 13, 2008)

Ksouer
Most of the criteria you noted were factored into my choice. The cross feed was high on the want list, while variable speed, foot print and additional power were the most heavily weighted selling points. I noted the lack of a threading dial, but figured it wouldn't be a big thing to make one to fit it when I begin doing threading. I'm forever modifying my machines to meet various needs, quite often just because I enjoy doing it. I've already begun a mod list, for this one, to make it fit my work style more closely.

I looked at the C6 which was sitting back to back with the display model C4. The lack of variable speed and the larger foot print (the C4 just barely fit where it's now sitting) were deal the killers. I didn't pay the full retail price for the C4 and even managed to get a couple of extras tossed into the deal, like the steady and follow rests. It pays to ask for discounts and goodies, especially in the current economy. They aren't selling lathes and such like they did when times were flush, so even a little bit of negotiation goes a long way. Doing it face to face helps.

The extra accessories, while nice to have, were not that much of a consideration since I've tooled up heavily over the past 3 years. I've got 5 inch chucks and extra centers on hand. I'm needing only a couple of DRO scales to complete things. These things would have been crucial if this were a first lathe buy, but now days they would only add to the general clutter.

As mentioned, the fit and finish is well above and beyond the C2 and the added mass seems to help a lot, from the few cuts Ive had time to make. I've got some "mystery metal" on hand that chatters the C2 badly at any speed. If this one tackles it successfully, I'll become a full convert. 

Besides...I've got 90 days to decide if it stays, so I'm not completely locked into it just yet. With Travers being local, I can easily return it if it doesn't perform. 

Steve


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## kvom (Dec 14, 2008)

Power crossfeed would be a must-have for me in any lathe.

I like the looks of this one.


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## Metal Mickey (Dec 14, 2008)

Does the chuck come with any other coloured greese choice? If there was an orange colour would that bring cod instead? :big:


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## Kludge (Dec 14, 2008)

That C4 is lovely. Well, except for the grease. Green would have been nice to compliment the red paint and bring a festive appearance to the machine. 

In my opinion, Sieg has been doing a good job of listening to user complaints and fixing problems as they go. Even the lowly C0 (of which one I plan to buy) has had small improvements along the way despite it not really being designed for any sort of precision. From your description the C4 doesn't have to be disassembled, cleaned up and reassembled before it can be operational like so many early machines did/do. That is a major step in the right direction and hopefully it will extend to the entire line.

Please, keep us posted on how it performs.

Best regards,

Kludge


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## artrans (Dec 14, 2008)

I think that's a beautiful lathe the variable speed alone is worth the price. bigger is not always better I like it I am jealous I want one
now use it well. merry xmas


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## mogogear (Dec 14, 2008)

Probably missed this some where up stream in this thread or another... where did you purchase your C4 from?

Nice by the way and admirable clean up job on limited time with the Red Goooo


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 14, 2008)

Kluge get yerself one of these





then you can build one of these 




Tin


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## ksouers (Dec 14, 2008)

Steve,
Thanks again. Many things to consider when upgrading, eh?

Do you plan to tear it down for inspection? It'll be interesting to see if they've improved their cleaning and preparation, as well.


Kevin


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## georgeseal (Dec 14, 2008)

Mo,
Let me post on Steves behalf.
He lives just down the street from Travers.
We went there the other day and everyone knew him by name.
They wouldn't allow me in the break room but I will bet his coffee cup is on a hook there.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to each & all


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## Kludge (Dec 15, 2008)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Kludge get yerself one of these



That's the CNC version of the C0 I'm looking at. Pretty, isn't it. 



> then you can build one of these



Hmmm ... maybe a 1.5x3" lathe made by a 4x5 lathe. Well, I do like small. 

Best regards,

Kludge


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## Cedge (Dec 15, 2008)

George...
Dunno about my name, but they sure know my credit card....(grin) They do love to see me coming in the door because they know I'm toting that piece of plastic.

Ksouer...

Yes... we all seem to have our own limits, requirements and criteria to deal with. It wasn't that I would have turned down a few accessories, but I barely factored the idea into the equation since I was already looking past them to the various mods I'd want to do.

You just gave a perfect intro to what I will be posting soon. I've been lifting covers and peeking into the innards of the lathe already. I am pleased to report that I've not found any sand or casting debris in any of them. The red grease coating was limited to the externals. I did note that the lathe was shipped without lubrication on the drive train, but that was quickly remedied. 

Mo...
As noted by George, (who claims he's here to visit me) I'm located very near a Travers Tool Showroom/Warehouse. I can often justify a local purchase which is a tad more expensive than Ebay, because there is no shipping cost.... or waiting time. 


The auto cross feed got a quick testing last night and I'm more than pleased. If it cuts everything as silky smooth as it did the small piece of brass I'd chucked, this one will be a real winner. I'm also going to like the course and fine auto feeds on the longitudinal axis. One is for roughing and one for getting a down and dirty fine finish. I can't wait to adapt the independent power feed. Then I'll see just how sweet things really are.

Tomorrow, I'll begin looking into fitting the 5 inch chuck and how I want to mount the DROs and the lead screw power feed. I don't think I'll need to extend the cross slide travel, but it didn't take long to see that while it can be done, it's limited to about an additional .500 - .750 inches due to the cross feed drive configuration.

Other items like a rear tool post and a carriage lock are ideas niggling around in the dim recesses of my few remaining gray cells. There is a lot more room to try them out on this lathe.

Steve


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## Cedge (Dec 15, 2008)

After a day of car shopping I finally got the chance to do some bonding with this new toy. The red plague is gone and all the screws have been tightened. The gibs have all been snugged up and everything is lubricated. The tail stock was checked for alignment and found to be almost dead on. Adjusted it a bit and it was time to make some test cuts.

Brass was no problem and the lathe never varied in RPM up to .100 doc. Finish was beautifully smooth with no banding as sometimes happened with my7 x14. 

Steel came off smoking and blue down to a DOC of about .100. Still no bogging of the motor. RPM at 370 and it never wavered.

Grabbed what I thought was oil hardening drill rod (silver steel) and chucked it up. I decided to get aggressive and see where the motor would begin to grunt. I began the cut at .100 and cranked it in as the cut progressed. At .250 DOC I chickened out, but the motor never acted like it knew there was metal in the machine. Rock solid on 370 RPM and it's still just chillin' along. I stopped the lathe to have look a the cut and noticed something. The metal was marked S.S. for stainless steel.

Stainless has always been something I avoided on the little C2 lathe. It chattered to beat the band and usually work hardened before I got much of a cut. There in front of me was a stick of stainless that had just been reduced in diameter by a full .500 inches in just one cut. To say I'm a happy camper is an understatement.

I began to play with light cuts and was able to hold a .0005 DOC (measurable) down the length of the work piece. That would never happen without standing on top of the dials on the C2. This one did it with no effort under fine power feed. I then shot the dial for a cut of approximately .00025 and watched in amazement as a nice even but very tiny curl came sliding off the work piece. Doubtful I'll ever try to work that tight, but it's nice to know at least the machine isn't afraid of it.

This lathe is going to be a whole new experience. I've got some "adjusting" to do to my muscle memory and between my ears to get used to the new controls, but even that will be fun if the metal keeps turning out like it did tonight. 

Don't take it all wrong. I'm still a big fan of the gutsy little 7x14 lathe and am sorely tempted to keep it for second operation work. Learning to machine on the smaller lathe gave me a whole set of skills, some of which were simply adapting to the limits and quirks that are innate to these small machines. They are still a great little machine to learn on, if for no other reason than their forgiving nature and easy access to parts and tooling. 

Steve


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## flint (Jan 21, 2009)

Any Update on how the new lathe has been working?
I have been looking at this as a possible purchase.


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## Cedge (Jan 21, 2009)

Flint
At the moment I'm adding a couple of mods to the system, so I've had it down for a bit. So far I've upgraded it to a 5 inch chuck which was pretty painless other than ordering an adapter. I also bought an OXA type quick change tool post from Little Machine Shop while at Cabin Fever and have to make a new stud for the tool post in order to mount it. 

 The other mod that is slowing things down a bit is the installation of an independent power feed on the main lead screw. I have the drive mounted but still have to add the controller. I will be putting the controls in the Lathe's control box when the new power feed controller board arrives from Grizzly. 

I've had the chance to crawl over a lot of the lathe's real estate and have yet to find anything that has disappointed me. I put a long stick of 1.125 aluminum in the chuck and supported it with a center in the tail stock. I engaged the stock lead screw power feed and made several long passes. Then I measured the cut with a micrometer. Total taper was less than .0015 over 10 inches. The only adjustment I'd made was to make sure the tail stock was centered, using the infamous 6 inch ruler trick.

I'm quite happy with things so far. It makes heavy cuts without straining and finish cuts I'd have killed for on the 7x14. Add in the fact that flex is far far less than the 7x14 and it should be capable of doing nearly everything I'll ask of it.

Negatives?.... Little Machine Shop (nor anyone else) doesn't have a lot for the lathe and seem to still be feeling their way with it. That will should soon begin to improve, according to Chris.

Steve


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## flint (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, 
I have been drooling over this one for some time now, and as I am likely to have difficulty convincing my wife that I need (well need is a strong word) both a lathe and a mill...so, any thoughts on the Milling head for the lathe. It sounds Like it is an x1 which I would think might be a little small for the lathe. On the other hand it would be "one machine".


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## Cedge (Jan 21, 2009)

Flint
I got to see the C6 with the mill adaptation, which is the same as on the C4. If a 3 in 1 machine is all you have room for, it's probably an "okay" set up. That being said, you'll find yourself working in a tiny work envelope. I have an X2 mill here and it was a bit confining, but an excellent machine to learn on. Those who own the X1's seem to like them, so I'm not about to say "dont go there".

There are a couple of things the C4 could use that do not come with it. One is a thread dial, the other is a reversing tumbler, both related to threading ops. Both can be worked around, but complex threading like multi start threads are not available in the stock configuration. I'm sure someone will solve both items as the lathe finds more users.

Steve


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## Philjoe5 (Jan 21, 2009)

Great review Steve. Thanks for the information,

Cheers,
Phil


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## flint (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks again. I believe I am a ways away from complex threading....maybe by the time I'm ready there will be an option.


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## Maryak (Jan 22, 2009)

Cedge  said:
			
		

> but complex threading like multi start threads are not available in the stock configuration. I'm sure someone will solve both items as the lathe finds more users.



Maybe a piece of chalk or some nail polish and we're half way there - Cheap but effective. : ;D 

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer (Jan 22, 2009)

Cedge,

Can't jump a few teeth to cut multiples?

Dave


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## Cedge (Jan 22, 2009)

See?... I told you someone would find a solution...(grin)

Steve


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## mklotz (Jan 22, 2009)

If you mount the compound so its axis is parallel to the spindle axis then, after cutting the first thread of a multiple, you can simply use the compound to move the tool over by the thread pitch and cut another thread.


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## BobWarfield (Jan 22, 2009)

No thread dial?

What an odd omission on an otherwise fine looking lathe.

I assume you'll eventually wind up fabricating one as part of the overall "Cedgification" of the lathe? 

Cheers,

BW


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## Cedge (Jan 22, 2009)

Bob
Keeping in mind I've not done any single point thread cutting, the little lathe has an instant reverse feature which apparently allows the lead screw to remain engaged during threading. I've already begun cogitating a thread dial mod, but it's still pretty low on the list. 

Getting the power feed completed and the QCTP installed are at the top of things at the moment. (note to self.... order replacement controller today). Also need to order a scale for the DRO install. The "Cedgification" is never ending....Feel the Force, Luke...LOL

Steve


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## mklotz (Jan 22, 2009)

It's been said before but keep in mind that if you decide to fabricate a thread dial, you do not need to do a precision job of matching the gear to the lead screw.

The dial has no load on it so wear is pretty much a non-issue. The only real requirement is that it stay in "mesh" with the lead screw. Similarly, backlash isn't an issue since the dial only operates in a single direction while in use. In fact, I read somewhere of someone who made one by inserting small pins into the circumference of a brass annulus, a la the wooden gears once seen on waterwheel driven grain mills.

Brass (or even, gasp, plastic) will work fine; there's no need to make it from steel. Typically, the number of teeth is four times the pitch of the leadscrew, e.g., 32 teeth for an 8 tpi LS so that the dial makes one revolution for a four inch movement of the carriage.


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