# Too much safety



## 1Kenny (Jun 29, 2008)

It has been brought to my attention that we at HMEM are over pushing safety. To any members that think we are, I say Thank You for noticing. I am thrilled that the safety area is as active as it is and hope that it stays that way. 

I am interested in everyones thoughts about too much safety.

Thanks,

Kenny


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 29, 2008)

there is almost no such thing as too much safety . There are some limits we should not be afraid to try new things and we need to be making chips and model parts or why are we here. Safety is a state of mind akin to newton law of physics that for every action there is a reaction. 
we need to think about the results of our actions or inactions. 
a loose part in a chuck can fly out.If we grab sharp metal it can cut. hot metal will burn. Spilled oil is a tripping hazard etc. 
we need to double check out setups if in doubt . And observe our surroundings. In the home shop we are in charge of operational risk management . 
*Safety first Safety always injuries last. *
Tin


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## Cedge (Jun 29, 2008)

You're kidding... I hope. Sounds as if we need to give this guy an extra entry or two in his profile.... for his wife's name and her favorite flowers. The poor widow, she'll be needing a wee bit of comforting, when his number comes up.... doncha know. The Darwin awards are always looking for fresh new nominees. 

Steve


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## mklotz (Jun 29, 2008)

It's worth repeating safety warnings again and again WHERE THEY ARE APPROPRIATE. Even more important is pointing out the safety concerns that aren't immediately apparent. An example of that might be telling someone to ensure that the grinder rest is as close to the wheel as possible so the object being ground can't be sucked into the space between the rest and the grinding wheel. There are numerous other examples but that gives you the idea of what I'm talking about.

What I find annoying are the gratuitous warnings by the safety nannies. These are the people who, if I say I'm going to solder something with a propane torch, immediately launch into warnings about how I must be careful not to burn myself with the torch. I haven't seen much of this on this BBS but I've seen plenty of it elsewhere. Most of the people here seem to have good common sense and know when and with whom a safety reminder is needed.

A further note... Criticizing what contributors write, be it safety or otherwise, should be discouraged. Many of us don't need lesson after lesson on how to single point thread but that's not a reason for criticizing yet another post trying to help someone who is learning it for the first time. Also, remember that we have many lurkers and folks who haven't read the whole body of posts already made. We have something of a responsibility to ensure that every thread covers the critical material they may not have read, even if such coverage repeats material that the long-time members have seen before.


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## rake60 (Jun 29, 2008)

I don't believe there could ever be such a thing as too much safety.

If you work for a machine shop, OSHA sets and enforces strict safety
guidelines for the operation and guarding of machine tools.
If you intentionally break the rules the employer may give you 
an unpaid 3 day vacation to think about it. If an OSHA Inspector happens
to make a supprise visit and sees the act before the employer they can
fine the company $Thoushands$. In that case your unpaid vacation my
be permanent.

Neither of those scenarios are there to take money away from you or make
your job more difficult. They are there to force safe practices on people who
may not have the comman sense to understand those facts on their own.
In the past 30 years I have never been written up for any safety violations.
And yet, I've had a tally of 47 stitches, 3 broken fingers, a broken right arm
and one finger that is about 1/4" shorter than it should be.
Working with machine tools is a hazard in it's self.

In a home shop there are no Federal Agency's stopping in to be sure you are
operating the machines in a safe manner. 
_ *That is entirely up to you!*_

_*Safety IS the #1 issue!*_

Rick


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## shred (Jun 29, 2008)

I get irritated with some of the more bizzare OSHA rules at my workplace (mostly an office kinda place) but, behind every one of them is a serious injury to somebody. Kinda scary to think about. I managed to end-mill the tip of a finger doing something I thought was OK long ago.. oops.. luckily the mill was almost stopped and my finger and nail grew back, but it's a huge wake up call.

IMO, Safety advice should be "here's how to do that safely", not "OMG! you'll kill yourself, don't do it!".


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## tmuir (Jun 29, 2008)

I have no problems with anyone posting a safety tip.
It only takes me a few seconds to read and if it saves me from hurting myself or someone else it was worth reading and if I knew the tip already it's only costs me a few seconds to read.

Technically, sitting in my climate controlled office at work I am supposed to read and sign off on several JSAs before I even sit down at my desk to turn on my PC. That kind of OHS I find annoying but genuine points that could save me from harm with machineary I'm all for people telling me those.


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## itowbig (Jun 29, 2008)

well speaking from a newbe here i like that somebody says something cause then i read it & then when i go to my machines i think about what could happen. if its in the mind you will use it.
i say thank you for all the safty warnings, tips ect


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## Circlip (Jun 30, 2008)

Obviously whoever posted to Kenny has never seen a grinding wheel burst or something go between a milling cutter and the job and not stop? It would also be interesting to know which side of the pond this guy comes from. Sad to state, some aspects of common sense have been eroded by the "blame and claim" culture which is a direct result of western TV programmes. A couple of prime examples that spring to mind are "I was given the wrong type of ladder" and "When I went into work I didn't notice the floor was wet"
 Having said that, I've jumped in on a couple of postings on here that due to the Pickies show bad practice to newbies. We shouldn't need to state the obvious but one or two practices could be overlooked at the expense of a "Situation" occurring.
 Regards,with no excuse for pointing out safety issues, Ian.

Edit, I just had a look at the plans for the new team build, and notice Elmer was also a "Nanny", Post on bottom of last page- Safety instructions? Don't know when this book was originally written, but HE obviously though common sense needed pointing out.
 Good on yer Elmer.


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## 1Kenny (Jun 30, 2008)

I want to thank you guys for the supportive responces. I too put safety as job 1. Long ago I lost a young mechanic that felt he was going to be late for work and be in trouble. He was speeding to get to work, hit a car and his head was decapitated. It made me so sick that I couldn't eat for several days. Being safe is the most important thing we do, everything else will fall in place. Not being safe effects everyone around you. 

Kenny


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## chuck foster (Jun 30, 2008)

accidents happen so fast, and some are just unforeseen.

about 8 years ago my uncle was putting air and a small front tire off of his 8 h.p. riding tractor. nothing unusual about that now is there?
probably everyone here has done this sort of thing and not though much of it. 
he took the tire and rim assembly off the tractor and went to the locale garage to inflate it.
well the tire blew off the rim and sent the rim upwards so fast and so quick it hit him on the underside of the chin and broke his neck......killing him instantly.
now i know some are going to say it was a one in a million chance that this happened or they might say some other thing that is very easy to say after the fact. end result is my uncle is dead and my aunt is a widow at the age of 50

i guess what I'm trying to say is you can never be too safe.

now i will get off my soup box and stop preaching.

chuck


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## Bogstandard (Jun 30, 2008)

Chuck,

That is most probably more than a one in a million chance, but it is happening all over the world every day. Thousands upon thousands every day. By these statistics most people know someone somewhere who has had a bad accident.

Common sense is usually left in bed when people get up and go to work. Make sure you wake it up and take it with you.

John


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## JohnS (Jul 1, 2008)

One of the problems affecting people's attitudes towards health and safety is the over zealous actions of certain 'elf & safety' perpetrators. Like, for example, a chinese restaurant I know of who can now no longer provide toothpicks in case customers hurt themselves. What is a serious life and death issue is being turned into a national joke and the media are full of similar crazy stories. 

I do care about my own safety, for my sake and for my family. I have bought a pair of decent prescription safety glasses - *and use them* . I never wear loose clothing and, thanks to a tip I read on this site, I never have cleaning rags anywhere near my lathe or mill using paper towels which tear if caught in rotating machinery.

John S


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## wareagle (Jul 2, 2008)

Too much safety?????   Makes about as much sense to me as having too much money! 

Whom ever brought this topic up hasn't ever had to tell someone's loved one that he/she is gone. Or seen someone who has had an extremity pulled of by a machine, had a foreign object in their eye, etc. Face it, the stuff we do for a hobby is potentially deadly! If one doesn't want to face that fact, then please take up another form of entertainment. Collect baseball cards instead! 

But, no matter how redundant, no matter how silly, no matter how routine, always keep safety in mind and act on anything that seems to be a risk. Safety is an attitude. Safety is a culture. Safety is your partner. Safety is a life saver. Always take safety with you in the shop, or anything else that you are doing (including card collecting).

As far as having safety comments in threads, let them be. The mundane comment regarding saftey in a thread about drilling a simple hole just might keep someone out there from getting injured, and that person could easily be one of the many people who haven't joined this community. Maybe that person is a father of two young kids and the sole provider of the family. Or maybe that person is your loved one.... 

_Learn from the mistakes of others; you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself._


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## mklotz (Jul 2, 2008)

I would like to see more of the "that never occurred to me" safety warnings - stuff that isn't that obvious even if you do think hard about safety.

I read somewhere of a fellow who set a can of spray paint on his welding table and, somehow, when he started welding, the ground path went through the can heating it to the point where it exploded. Frankly, not being a welder, I don't understand how this would work but that's what was reported. Perhaps the story is apocryphal.

My own story involves a plastic gas container - the kind used to store a couple of gallons for a lawn mower or whatever. It was always in the way in my tiny shop so I shoved it in the back under the workbench. Sometime later, forgetting it was there, I shoved a box of metal scraps under the bench. Unknown to me, a piece of angle pierced the plastic. That evening, when I went to get the car out of the garage I (very fortunately) noticed the odor and the puddle. Thank goodness our (gas-fired) water heater is on a slab outside and not in the garage. I no longer mow grass nor store gasoline in the garage.

Then there's the matter of earthquakes. If you live anywhere in California (or other quake-prone locations), go out in your shop and imagine it shaking with a peak-to-peak amplitude of six inches. What's going to fall on what to cause something really unpleasant to happen? Those of you who don't live in quake country should check your shop for stuff on the floor that you wouldn't like to fall on. Leave impalement to the Roumanians.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 2, 2008)

You will notice I haven't done any posts about my shop in the last couple of days, and Marv's post has just brought it to the fore.

While moving the machinery out of my shop on Monday, somehow a gallon can of cellulose thinners got a minute puncture in it.

Very early on Tuesday morning, while having my coffee outside, Bandit the hound scratched on the locked shop door to be let in, his usual habit. He has to make sure their are no spiders or crawlies in there that might get me. So I duly unlocked the door, and the fumes that hit me, made me recoil backwards, luckily I didn't have my usual cigarette on the go, otherwise I don't think either myself, Bandit or the shop would still be here. The whole contents of the can had covered the floor, luckily no damage. Venting the shop for the last couple of days, with the main electrics feed turned off has nearly got rid of all the fumes. Another couple of days and I might be able to go inside to do some work. 
I am now looking at outside storage for all my flammables.

John


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## rake60 (Jul 2, 2008)

Just recently we had a man at work suffer serious burns to his right hand.

He was using a Oxy/Acc cutting torch.
The oxygen valve on the torch had a leaky o-ring and was bleeding
pure oxygen into his glove. It lit up and by the time he was able to get
the glove off the damage was already done.

Every Monday at our shop begins with a "Safety Tool Box" meeting covering
a new topic each week. The week following that event was on the safe handling
and inspection of cutting torches...

Rick


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## zeusrekning (Jul 2, 2008)

Rick the same thing happened to me a few months ago. I was cutting with a jacket on and fumes went up the sleeve from a loose connection on the torch. As soon as I smelled the fumes and leaned up they ignited. Luckily just hair was lost. 
Tim


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## shred (Jul 2, 2008)

Long ago I had a cigarette lighter in a nylon jacket pocket (irony alert: I don't smoke and had swiped it from somebody to encourage them to stop). Either it was leaky or the latch got jammed down.. anyway, the inside of the jacket got filled with butane. I then stuck my hand in there, probably hit the sparker... and the whole pocket went up. I barely escaped skin grafts all down the back of my hand and fingers. For weeks I had to go in and have them scrape off the dead skin from the burn site.. yooowwwch!


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## mklotz (Jul 3, 2008)

Another not so obvious safety concern is the possibility of being startled when doing something hazardous. We all know that a moment of inattention can be dangerous when using torch, bandsaw, drill press and, perhaps to a somewhat lesser degree, any powered tool.

My wife and daughters had strict instructions to never walk into the Garaj Mahal when I was embroiled in something unless they already had my attention. Fortunately, they recognized the danger and so followed my rule but the delivery men, missionaries and real estate men weren't so accommodating.

I installed a photodetector switch wired to a chime* for a while but it became so annoying that I eventually disabled it. 

Warn your family members about the danger of startling someone who is doing anything with dangerous tools.

------------
* A chime is far less startling than a bell or buzzer - at least for me.


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## CrewCab (Jul 3, 2008)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> I would like to see more of the "that never occurred to me" safety warnings - stuff that isn't that obvious even if you do think hard about safety.



Health and safety is, imho, very much a matter of common sense, please don't misunderstand that comment, I have no problem with health and safety advice, warnings and advice etc and unfortunately, not everyone is endowed with a high level of common sense :wall: ........... being in the construction industry that has been demonstrated many times, so a high level of "health and safety" enforcement is a good thing.

What does annoy me is the extent to which it is perpetrated at times, this makes both the principles and H & S people enforcing the rules look silly and detracts from the main issues .......... for example .......

A good friend of mine is a painter and decorator, some years ago he was working on a contract at Heathrow Airport .......... a Hotel. In order to be allowed on site, to decorate the 32 toilet cubicle's .......... each one measuring approximately 3'-0" square x 7'-0" high he had to wear a Hi-Vis jacket, safety boots and a hard hat ??? ..... took him twice as long as it should have and his main problem was dehydration due to working in a confined area wearing all the required gear ................ fortunately however, he was on dayworks so he wasn't too worried ......... just totally pi$$ed off at the total waste of time ;D

CC


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## rake60 (Jul 3, 2008)

Here's a case in point.

A man was trimming his shrubs with his rotary push lawn mower.
He had picked the mower up holding it with one hand on either side of
the deck and was lifting it across the the top of his shrubbery to cut them flat.
He lost his grip with one hand, the mower flipped and mangeled up his arm.

He filed a multimillion $$ claim against the mowers manufacture and WON!

The courts found NO safety warning in the users manual that said the mower 
should not be used in that manner......

So where do you go from there?
You make every safety concern as clear as it can possibly be made!


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## rake60 (Jul 4, 2008)

As I've already said in the *Poll: Shop Accidents* thread, I spent the afternoon with my
brother in law today. He's been a job shop machinist for 30 years and I worked with him
for a couple of those years at one point in my own career.

I told him about this thread and he asked to see it.
He read the first post and said:

_*"You need to find out who that was. I understand gardening can be a very rewarding
hobby. I'll even pay for all the required tools for them. Anyone who thinks there can 
be too much safety notice involving machine tools has no business being near one
let alone operating it."*_

I can't top that responce!

Rick


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## wareagle (Jul 5, 2008)

Speaking of being distracted by others while doing a hazardous task; being an electrician, that actually happenes alot. It never fails that we will be doing something in or around energized electrical equipment and some idiot will start taking flash pictures behind us without telling us ahead of time. When that happens, we usually will explain life to them in friendly and constructive manor followed by a warning that if they don't get the camera out of the area the we will cram it where the sun doesn't shine. _The last guy that did that to us was our safety director_!  

This really tends to make me start speaking in tongues!


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2008)

> You need to find out who that was. I understand gardening can be a very rewarding
> hobby. I'll even pay for all the required tools for them.




Heck even gardening has its hazards. My son is 18 ,the know it all phase of life. He was cleaning up our yard and helping a neighbor in her yard yesterday . Keep in mind he is a good kid that generally listens has had safety pushed on him most of his life, has used and seen in use many tools including lathe mill shaper etc. 

He cut the extension cord with the hedge trimmer TWICE. Wacked his ankle with the maddex while cuting roots and had to be reminded to wear safety glasses/ eye protection . I would not call gardening a safe sport either. 
A person that does not practice safety can get hurt walking around the block. or collecting stamps!!!!
Tin


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## Alphawolf45 (Jul 5, 2008)

Years ago I run to the barn to kiss my wife goodbye I was headed out of state to do a job and when I rounded the rear corner of the barn, my sudden appearance spooked a horse that wife was holding while horseshoer was bent over working on its front hoof. The spooked horse stepped on the guys back while jumping over him........Thorobred horses are maniacs, I have seen my wife get kicked 3 times in one week......Tough gal, her nose has been busted by horses 3 times, thrown nose down in the dirt once, horse reared head back striking her nose was second time, the last time the horse actually kicked her in the face a glancing blow the horses hoof scraped her nose right off her face..busted her jaw, knocked out teeth, busted the orbit of her eye..required a lot of surgury to make her look good again.....lot of hobbies are dangerous. Metalsworking is not worse than some of the others.


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## Bogstandard (Jul 5, 2008)

> A person that does not practice safety can get hurt walking around the block. or collecting stamps!!!!



I had an accident that nearly killed me while carrying a model boat to the lakeside.

My foot slipped on a laurel leaf, twisting my ankle, and breaking it in the process.

Two weeks later, I had a pulmonary embolism, caused by a blood clot that had formed in my leg under the plaster. They reckon I had only a couple of hours to live by the time they got to me, and started to pump in clot busting drugs.

So the moral is, even tiny leaves can kill you.

From the catchline of Hill Street Blues, 'Lets be careful out there'.

John


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 5, 2008)

Several years ago my wife had three trips to the emergency room in a 3 month period 
1) cat gets caught in venician blind cord. wife attempts to RESCUE cat . Cat inflicts multi bite wounds to arm .This required antibiotics to fight possible infection and x- rays to check for cat teeth and or bone chips.
2) wife trips on pipe at garden edge to prevent hose from entering garden and damaging plants . wife hits slate sidewalk face first, hits chin requiring stitches. Wife uses arm to break fall ,breaks arm. 
3) wife comes home from church Sunday evening living room is dark steps on son's sneakers breaks foot. 
Gee _*I*_ got a few funny looks that summer. 


> From the catchline of Hill Street Blues, 'Lets be careful out there'.


Tin


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## derekm (Oct 6, 2008)

There are problems with safety:
My 2 pennorth



Poor public understanding of the concepts of probability.
Poor perception on efficacy of laws and enforcement by the public, lawmakers and enforcers.
Safety is used to pursue other goals


Large sections of the public do not really understand probability, if they did they wouldnt:

let little Jemima anywhere near a horse, 
take their children to school in a car because of a nonspecific threat of paedophiles 
be more worried about their daughters coming home late at night than their sons.


This means the public does not understand how to address the level of risk from a cutting tool, a cigarette, a can of petrol or an Asteriod impact.


The efficacy of laws is overated and so is enforcement. Laws and enforcement are only any use against systematic conciously executed unsafe practices (e.g. instructing others to use bare hands to clear the swarf from the mill tool or always doing it yourself). Expecting laws to eliminate unsafe events is unrealistic. They can do nothing about unconciously unsafe practices, unforeseen or random events. You cant invent a law, a process, and enforce and build a guard it in the time some absent mindedly do something unexpected . We should get used to the fact you can not deterministically be "safe" By that I mean the assumption " If only we had the right laws and efforcement we would be safe" is false.

None the less we need the laws and enforcement to eliminate systematic conciously unsafe practices.

Safety used for other goals

These are legion.

As an example in the U.K. laws changed what you could do as a householder with the wiring in the house to address the 7 fatalities per year from all household electrical faults.

Note more people die from accidents related to wellington boots or cooking. It is not really evident how the rules will change the statistics significantly since the people who electrocuted selves from DIY are unlikely to take any notice as the ones likely to observe these changeswould have either got an electrician or knew how to do it safely, the amount of faulty wiring is not going to change much since its already installed. The level of enforcement is almost zero. It doesnt allow for proffessional faults.



To answer the original question can you have too much saftey I would say yes because with too much of the misdirected, rigid or misapropiated kinds switchs people off. Then they stop thinking and have incidents

More and more safety notices makes people not see them after awhile as evidenced by numerous wags putting up spoof humerous notices that no-one catch on to unless its pointed out to them.

So what is the solution... Thats the hard one... 
One suggestion is more non specific training to be safe -where people are trained to identify risks and take appropiate action. This not training them to how to do a specific job safely but how to apply principles. Teaching people about risk and probability. Testing on generic safety skills.


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## Cedge (Oct 6, 2008)

Derek
All well and fine on an abstract and academic level, but it doesn't have much float in the real world of flying chips. The laws are there as much to put safety in the minds of the owner of the company as they are for the safety of the working guy. The owner, if he's a good guy, will have enough concern for his people that he enforces them with out having the stick applied. The last thing I ever wanted to do is to inform a newly minted widow her hubby was smashed beyond saving because I overlooked something small but essential.

The ones who would ignore safety know the laws will extract a pound of flesh for ignoring it.

Safety has to be a thought process based on common sense and prudent caution, but it also has to be balanced against getting the job done. Getting it done without injury is the mark of success, while an injury most often means something or someone failed. 

I try to work as safely as possible, but the other night I got the crap scared outof me. I chucked up an end mill and began a cut. Nothing unusual about the situation at all. Speeds, feeds and Depth of cut were well into the safe zone. I had just made a small movable chip shield, the previous night and had it magnetically attached to my vise. All of a sudden the end mill "exploded" and the pieces slammed into the shield. Luckily no damage to me or to the machine, but I was standing in the direct flight patch of what turned out to be two pieces of bullet sized shards with some really nasty 4 fluted cutting edges. That small shield deflected them up and over where I was standing and it did it without a mark.

Close inspection seemed to indicate the end mill was possibly fatigued from lots of previous cuts and it also might have been hard brittle, perhaps even from when it was made. 

Safety is paramount any time one is engaged in any productive endeavor... even then accidents can rear their ugly head. We all assume a certain amount of acceptable risk when we decide to do anything in life. One can figure all the probability one wants, but you'll never calculate the odds of a newly installed shield being used for the first time nor the likelihood of a tool shattering that was without any evidence of previous defect.

Steve


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 6, 2008)

I was talking to a guy the other day> He was telling me he almost died recently . He tripped in the yard of his house and fell on a stump. The fall caused internal injuries. He was in the hospital for a month most of that time unable to eat. 
The only thing that can prevent such an injury is situational awareness. 
Tin


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## steamer (Oct 6, 2008)

I think Cedge's comments are spot on

Cedge,
I was using a 1/2" 2 flute endmill at work one day ( Yes this place let engineers...who knew what they were doing, use the machines)
.o6" depth of cut in aluminum.  Cutter speed of 1300.  About 10 inches a minute feed rate....not a roughing cut by any means. All of a sudden and silently the end mill broke about 1" up from the cutting edge, sailed down the Isle between 3 machinists and slammed into the wall with a big bang.  The guys asked what I had done, and I showed them the part which was undamaged. They couldn't believe it either!

You need to pay attention, but some times .....Excrement occurs!

Dave


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## Davyboy (Oct 6, 2008)

I work in a machine shop daily for a living. as I train new guys (kids mostly), I tell them "If your buddy comes over to talk, shut the machine off and talk. Go back to work when he leaves." I've seen too many bad things happen when operators (including MYSELF) are distracted. Two men I know have short fingers from talking while using a band saw. They said they never felt a thing til it was too late. Yes, cutting tools DO shatter, sending bits of shrapnel in random directions. I've seen many do just that. 99% of accidents are caused by *OPERATOR ERROR*.  A couple of tag lines from the discussion groups on the internet, not mine, please forgive the plagiarism : 

Experience is what you have when the bleeding stops.

Make it idiot proof and they'll invent a better idiot.

Stay safe, to do otherwise hurts too bad, too long.
DB


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## derekm (Oct 7, 2008)

> Derek
> All well and fine on an abstract and academic level, but it doesn't have much float in the real world of flying chips.


It might sound academic but comes from working in shops and working in the steel erecting world, Where there is significant risk. And most of the pursuits I do/done out of work have had significant risk managment involved - Mountaineering/offshore sailing/using lethal weapons.

the rest of your post actually tells me we are almost on the same page


> ...
> The ones who would ignore safety know the laws will extract a pound of flesh for ignoring it.


Thats what I mean by systematic concious - they know the dangers, they know its probably going happen and they delibrately proceed



> Safety has to be a thought process based on common sense and prudent caution, but it also has to be balanced against getting the job done. Getting it done without injury is the mark of success, while an injury most often means something or someone failed.


This (which I agree with) contradicts the "cant have too much safety or "safety is paramount" statement people make... 


> I try to work as safely as possible, but the other night I got the crap scared outof me...


This is a random event which contradicts others saying "some one gets hurt someones is to blame". Things will happen like this regardless of the level of care people take and can be very unexpected. Its the idea that you can 100% protect your self from the unexpected by applying ever increasing amounts of safety I disagree with.


> Safety is paramount any time one is engaged in any productive endeavor... even then accidents can rear their ugly head. We all assume a certain amount of acceptable risk when we decide to do anything in life. One can figure all the probability one wants, but you'll never calculate the odds of a newly installed shield being used for the first time nor the likelihood of a tool shattering that was without any evidence of previous defect.



Its not "calculation" but having a "gut feel" for risk that is actually useful, you dont have time to calculate , I contend most persons dont have the right gut feel. Some people have difficulty even placing levels of risk in the right order, and as a result are not spending time and money on the real risks

E.g. Given the number of lathe chuck incidents, how many step out of the line of the chuck when starting it? In the home shop, how many use airlines to move swarf or even worse dry cast iron dust? Turn/mill cast iron dry without breathing protection? (OSHA 5mg/m^3), dont use push sticks on table/bandsaws, dont use hearing protection using angle grinders etc...


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## wareagle (Oct 8, 2008)

Derek,

I think what your are saying is the safety rules and regulations have taken the common sense out of the equation and people aren't looking for the hazards but are merely following the rules mindlessly. I have worked many years in and around the electrical industry, and have seen some very stupid stuff happen in my time, despite the training, warnings, etc.

If this is your point, you are probably correct to a certain degree. However, if one listens to and reads safety warnings all of the time, then gets to the task and doesn't follow the needed precautions to safety engage that task, then a serious disconnect has occurred. The person either 1) doesn't need to be operating the ____, 2) isn't capable of comprehending the impending dangers, 3) hasn't paid attention to the material in the first place, 4) is putting time and money ahead of personal safety, or 5) just doesn't give a $#!^. In any of these cases, I say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. And I will also say that I will run off anyone with this attitude because it is poison.

Why doesn't a safety program work? In a nutshell, those responsible for its implentaion, enforcement and use do not take it seriously. In other words, nobody has taken ownership in the program and seen it through. It may be poorly written, not very well thought out, and hard to follow. Each one of these is a fixable thing if the initiative was taken to do so.

As a foreman or lead, supervisor or manager, helper or apprentice, everyone in my company has the authority to stop and correct a situation. Everyone watches out for everyone else. I have trained those that came up under me that they have to maintain 100% situational awareness on the job because everyone else was trying to kill them. Is that over the edge? Honestly, I don't care if it is. The boys and girls that I trained go home every night to their families the same way they arrived. Anything less is unacceptable. Period.

My point is that safety programs do work when taken seriously. The regulations do work. The rules do work. The mundane safety meetings do work. All of these things bring awareness. And awareness is the key to keeping people safe. _One of my men told me that I was brainwashing them into safety._ The regulations keep the employers from putting their dollar in front of your life. For those that mindlessly go into these meetings and sleep through them and carelessly go on about their jobs... I refuse to be around them.

And shame on the employer's for letting that happen! When I am responsible for personnel, I conduct safety meetings anytime I feel that there is a need. If an operation is about to take place, there will be a briefing on the operation, and every last person on my team will bring up a unique safety topic during that meeting and discuss the risk mitigation for the hazard during this briefing. If they don't, then they don't work. End of story. My crew knows that it is the first part of their job to assess safety hazards before commencing a task.

All of the safety meetings that I have ever conducted were not conducted by me, they were conducted by the men. I guided things and kept it on track, but the men brought the topics that pertained to their jobs and current situations, and we discussed those at length. Some of those meetings lasted a couple of hours, and management raised hell. I didn't care and told them so, my people were going to be safe and if it meant that had to have a three hour meeting everyday to address the concerns then so be it.

If one of my people performs an unsafe task, then they have to face me. We will discuss the scenario at length until the person understands the danger they have just placed themselves in. Some of those discussions have ended with the employee quitting. At that is fine, too. I have fired people for safety violations, I have suspended, reprimanded, and chastised many folks. During my entire career, I have had one injury under my watch, and that was an eye injury. The kid happened to be drilling overhead and got dust in his eye. And in my eyes, that was a failure on my part. The kid didn't choose the proper eye wear for the task because he just thought he could get it done in a second and those goggle were a 5 minute walk to retrieve. He learned his lesson that day and I learned mine, too.

This may be taboo to say, but none of the people that have worked for me have been seriously injured since they worked for me. Coincidence? I really don't know. My methods of training were somewhat unique. I talk to many of them, and each one of them at one point or another has told me that no one else had their personal safety at heart like I did, and for the time I was with them I forced them to put their focus onto what they were doing and what was happening around them.

As I have said before, safety is an attitude. The person has the attitude, and they choose what that attitude is. Are there ignorant people out there? Only by the millions. Does it mean that these people are stupid or don't care? In most cases I don't believe so. I think they aren't educated properly, and sometimes that education requires a foot up the backside. There will always be those who knowlingly choose to go against the "rules" for a myriad of reasons, but that is not the fault of anyone but the person making the choice (yes, even in the face of losing a job - if your boss told you to jump off of a cliff or face termination...).

I guess we agree to a point as I say, but I think your observations may be a slight bit over the top. That's okay, in the end I believe we are trying to achieve the same result!


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## dsquire (Oct 8, 2008)

War Eagle

I agree with what you are saying. I believe that things are getting better but we still have a long way to go. It is good to see that there are still people around that will stand up to management and insist on safety being job #1. In the long run the safe way to do the job is the most profitable. Sometimes it is hard to get management to see it that way.

Having the employees involved with safety meetings helps so much to keep them more interested in safety. Some people have an awareness about situations and know what can and cannot be done. Others are just an accident waiting to happen.

Don


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## wareagle (Oct 8, 2008)

dsquire  said:
			
		

> I agree with what you are saying. I believe that things are getting better but we still have a long way to go. It is good to see that there are still people around that will stand up to management and insist on safety being job #1. In the long run the safe way to do the job is the most profitable. Sometimes it is hard to get management to see it that way.



Those people have never had to carry the news to somene's family that their loved one will never come home. I have seen it happen sadly on more than one occasion, and one of those was a personal friend of mine working for another company. Those funerals really aren't much fun to attend, either. I promise!!



			
				dsquire  said:
			
		

> Having the employees involved with safety meetings helps so much to keep them more interested in safety. Some people have an awareness about situations and know what can and cannot be done. Others are just an accident waiting to happen.




Those people that are accidents waitng to happen don't last long with me. They either will get with it, or I will move 'em on. My nickname for a long time was "The Axe". When someone was sent to me, they performed or were gone. No exceptions. No three strikes crap. No games. If a man came to work and didn't have his head on straight (usually a Monday morning), he either woke up or went home. I have worked short handed a few times becasue of that, but I also am the type that will not ask anyone to do a job that I wouldn't do myself.

When I was an apprentice, I sat and watched those around me snooze during the safety meetings. I also heard the guys say that safety was stupid and pure BS and all of the typical grumbling that goes on. I made myself a promise that if I were in charge, there wouldn't be any sleeping or grumbling going on. Not yet have I broken that promise! A few had surprises when they came to work for me!

I take care of my guys. If they need something, I get it. If management refuses, then my mission in life is to be the biggest pain in their a$$ until I get what my men need. If I loose my job, then I don't want to work for the outfit anyway. The phone book of full of companies that need good qualified help.

This boy was never one to duck in the face of management. Matter of fact, the last company I worked for I told the owner in front of everyone that if he wanted to chew on my posterior that all he'd get would be a mouth full of scar tissue. My people are my focus, and always will be. I will have them the equipment they need to safely perform their jobs without exception. If not, then the job stops. And the owner or president or who ever can drive to the job and get their bite of scar tissue!



This same philosophy and attitude applies in my home shop as well. I have one friend that likely will never step foot into my shop again. Why? Becasue he thinks that all of the rules about safety glasses and foot wear and jewelry are unnessecary and foolish. He told me that it is a hobby that I do and that I have taken this safety thing way too far.   Well, you can guess how that conversation ended. We're still freinds, and we still hang out and stuff, but he is forbidden to step foot into my shop. Which is fine with me, I want him to keep his vision and fingers.


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