# Australia and New Zealand team build anyone?



## Kaleb (Jul 25, 2012)

I've just been thinking that a team build by members from Australia and New Zealand would be a good idea since the cost posting stuff to and from America or Europe is pretty much prohibitive. As far as an engine to build, I'm open to suggestions. I am able to provide lathe work up to 9" or 225mm OD, some basic milling operations on smaller parts, and fabrication work.


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## hi speed scrap (Jul 25, 2012)

Not a bad idea, lets nurse it along and see what develops,
perhaps even a design and build project might be worth 
considering.
I have a leaning to inline twin I/C's, but will go with the 
flow on this within my capabilities.

Dave.     Melb  (East Is)


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 25, 2012)

Team builds are doable but not an easy thing.  
some of the ones attempted were successive some not. 
Keep it simple for success
Tin .


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## Herbiev (Jul 26, 2012)

Count me in. I suggest a jet turbine as I'm told they look difficult but are in fact relatively simple to construct. Also the parts are light weight keeping postage rates down.


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## warranator (Jul 27, 2012)

Yeah guys count me in. I like the idea of an ic inline. CNC machinery is what I have to offer. I was part of the radial team build and it was quite successful but a little expensive posting all over the world so would be great to get involved with something local.


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## hi speed scrap (Jul 27, 2012)

Herbie, I like your idea!
and I have a box full of compressor wheels!!

But as tin suggests, perhaps we should keep it simple.

But I also loved my Taplin Twin, sadly lost several years ago.


Dave


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## Kaleb (Jul 27, 2012)

I do think keeping it simple is a good idea, but having a team member with CNC machinery opens up all sorts of possibilities. About the jet turbine idea, it doesn't really sound like my thing to be honest. The idea of an IC engine does get me going more, but it sounds complex if done as a multi cylinder 4-stroke. A single cylinder IC sounds more feasible to me though.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 3, 2012)

Hi All, it appears we are a team of four, at the moment.
Shall we proceed with a project?, others may join as we proceed I guess.

Dave.


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## Kaleb (Aug 5, 2012)

Well, with a team together, it's time to decide what to build. I like the idea of an IC engine, which seems to be okay with the rest of the team. I think a single would be a better idea to keep things fairly simple.


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## warranator (Aug 5, 2012)

Count me in for an IC engine. Does anyone have a set of plans?


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## Kaleb (Aug 8, 2012)

As far as plans go, I would suggest maybe the Kerzel hit and miss, or a barstock version of the Westbury Whippet. I have plans for both of these.


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## tel (Aug 8, 2012)

I can probably come on board for the gears as I will be doing a good bit of that for the next while. What are we looking at - one per member and one to auction for charity?

My vote would be for the Whippet - I've done a Kerzel.


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## Kaleb (Aug 9, 2012)

Actually, my copy of the Whippet plans is not complete, but I do have plans for a French horizontal 4 stroke a little like the Webster. It's a little more to my liking since it's open crank, and the intake is atmospheric which should make things simpler.


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## Herbiev (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm with Tel. One each and one for charity


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## tel (Aug 9, 2012)

I have the full series (4 parts) for the Whippet, one thing that attracts me to that is the 40 dp gears - I have cutters for that, although, like you Kaleb, I usually prefer open crank engines.


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## Kaleb (Aug 10, 2012)

The French engine has 0.5 module gears. Could we possibly alter the design to use 40 D.P. gears instead? Also, who in the team prefers to work in imperial as opposed to metric?


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## tel (Aug 10, 2012)

If you let me have the gear details mate, I'll see how it can be shuffled. I personally work mostly in imperial but metric is not really a problem.

40dp is 0.635mod btw, so we are in the ball park.


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## Kaleb (Aug 10, 2012)

I've attached the plans to this post. 

View attachment 4StrokeSingle Annotated.pdf


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 10, 2012)

few choices here:

http://www.john-tom.com/html/ICEngines.html
tin


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## tel (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks Kaleb - 38/19 teeth in 40 dp would be very close, but a bugger to index with my gear. However 40/20 could be done by moving the cam shaft 1.5mm further away from the cranks shaft centre - that would make life easier. I'll study the plans in greater depth, to see what else that would affect, as soon as I get a bit of free time. Worse comes to the worst I can buy in the two needed 0.5 mod cutters - I know where I can get those reasonably cheap.

Very like the Webster, innit.


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## ausdier (Aug 12, 2012)

Just some quick CAD.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 13, 2012)

Very nice!!
What program did you use?

Well done Ausdier,


Dave


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## ausdier (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks very much Dave.

I use Inventor.


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## Kaleb (Aug 15, 2012)

Okay, it seems the engine to build has been decided then. Now, what parts do each of you want to make? Tel has already put his hand up for the gears, and I'm thinking of doing the flywheels, fuel tank support columns and possibly the cylinders and pistons.


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## warranator (Aug 19, 2012)

Where can I get a copy of the plans?


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## Kaleb (Aug 19, 2012)

I've attached them to a post on the previous page.


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 19, 2012)

Kaleb looks like time to get things organised. You have a plan set . 
you need a team . you have one I think but the names should be listed. 
TB 1 had 10 folks we did 12 engines. that seemed like a good number. 
IMHO have 2 people do  6 each cylinder and piston sets maybe throw the crank in there as well. divide the work into 10 sets of parts or however many team members you get. then let people pick the part sets. try to make the division somewhat equal and fair. clear organization and clear communication will go a long way to insuring success of the project. Post all information the build in clear concise manner . For obvious reasons keep personal information private via e-mail and PMs. 
so you need a list of the team and a list of parts breakdown and then a list of part assignments. 
Tin


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## warranator (Aug 19, 2012)

I could probably do the crank and the cam and of course some other parts, CNC would get those perfect. There are no diameter measurements on the crank.


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## Herbiev (Aug 20, 2012)

I have a 13x36 lathe and RF 25 mill. Having never done any "serious" machining I would be happy with the simpler parts if thats ok.


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## ausdier (Aug 20, 2012)

At this stage I won't put my hand up to build any of the parts, but if more detailed plans or any modifications to customise for the build are required then I would like to help.
This way everyone can also have an input into the look, material selection style for the build and then see exactly what the end result should be like.
Also if people needed to be able to make parts in imperial I could convert the parts perfectly for them.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 20, 2012)

I'll stick my hand up for the cyl head and valve gear, if that works for the group, but I'm 
flexible on this.
Materials list would be useful too, or do we as a group
decide what materials to use. 
Is there any written detail on this engine available anywhere? 

Dave


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## lennardhme (Aug 22, 2012)

Have'nt done a group build before. Maybe ease my way in with the base & frames etc. if OK

Leonard in Gippsland


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## tel (Aug 23, 2012)

A little update - I can do the gears in 38/19 x 40 dp easily enough after all. And now I've got my personal stack out of the way I might do a couple of trial pairs while everything is still set up.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 23, 2012)

Thats an impressive stack Tel! 
enough for a five speed box 

Dave


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## Kaleb (Aug 23, 2012)

So, here are my suggested part assignments for each of us:

Tel- Gears and maybe carbies
warranator- Crankshafts, cams, conrods, cylinder, crankshaft, and timing gear supports, maybe the brackets for the fuel tank
hi speed scrap- Cylinder heads and valve gear components
Herbiev- Bases, bearing bushes and pushrod supports
Myself- Flywheels, fuel tank support columns, maybe the cylinders and pistons

As far as materials go, I would suggest making components requiring a lot of milling to be made from aluminium, cast iron for the cylinders and piston rings and steel or brass for the flywheels and gears, but I'm open to suggestions.


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## tel (Aug 23, 2012)

Yeah, I should be OK for the carbies, once I get my head around 'em.

So, we are looking at 6 engines total, or more?


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## Herbiev (Aug 24, 2012)

No worries. I'm on to it. No "honey do's "this weekend. 
Unless she bribes me.


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## tel (Aug 24, 2012)

As I read the plans, they call for a spark plug with an M5 thread? Anyone addressed this yet. Easy enough to do in M6 but M5 is getting way down there!

Also, the timing gear supports - I'll need to establish the correct centre to centre distance (by making and trying some gears) before they can go too far forward.


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## Kaleb (Aug 24, 2012)

Could we possibly re-design to use an M6 or 1/4x32 plug? Also, what does everyone think of my recommendations for materials? 6 engines sounds about right to me. So, do we need to work out anything else before we can start making our parts?


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## tel (Aug 24, 2012)

I think either would work in OK. I'd be good for doing plugs in either M6 or *1/4 x 40 tpi* as I don't have any 1/4 x 32 gear. Can I suggest that the M6 might be the better option.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 26, 2012)

M6 x 0.75 sounds good for the plug thread, I have those taps for the thread in the head.
I have 7xxx series Ali blocks or centrifugally cast, cast iron to choose from
for the heads and valve blocks.
Stainless or silversteel for valves, I would prefer silversteel, easier to machine
in smaller dia's.
Brass for the valve seats?
Also, I am confused about the transfer port, drawing doesnt show drilling detail
to match valve seat retainers, not to mention exhaust and inlet ports.
Maybe its an age thing, or I am a page short of the book 

Dave


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## tel (Aug 26, 2012)

I was thinking more of the M6 x 1 standard thread Dave - would that be a problem? Otherwise I will have to buy a die in.


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## hi speed scrap (Aug 27, 2012)

M6 x 1 is ok, have those as well.

Dave


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## tel (Sep 1, 2012)

Pinion blanks (steel) roughed out - now I gotta find something to do the big gear blanks, probably cast iron unless I have a lump of bronze I don't know about.


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## Herbiev (Sep 2, 2012)

Looking good Tel. Just wondering are we building 6 or 7 engines?


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## tel (Sep 2, 2012)

Six as far as I'm aware mate, but I always make a spare on runs like that - that way you never bugger one up and need a spare!


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## Herbiev (Sep 2, 2012)

Good thinking. In my case I'll make two extras just to make sure


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 4, 2012)

I have profiled an ali block to the head shape, it is long enough for 8 heads
so will probably make 8, barring stuffups!
Similiar with transfer ports.
Dam small arent they,


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## tel (Sep 4, 2012)

Yes, it is a small engine - smaller than the first look through the drawings seemed to indicate.

I got two (only) blanks for the big gear (in steel BTW) cut yesterdasy before I got interrupted.


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## warranator (Sep 5, 2012)

Hi guys. There seems to be a few dimensions missing on the crank shaft drawing (diameters), does anyone have any idea what they are? One dimension cannot be read also (distance of offset). Do we just match up where they go? Is there a tolerance? 
How does the conrod connect to the cam shaft? 

Also how does the cam lock onto the shaft it runs on?


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## tel (Sep 5, 2012)

You might have to pick those dims up off the bearing and connecting rod drawings?

As far as the cams go, the attachment of the gears does not show eityher - I plane to put an M3 grubscrew in the bosses to hold 'em. Might do thou likewise with the cams.


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## Herbiev (Sep 5, 2012)

Hi all. Does anyone have hole sizes and position measurements for the base plate ?


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## tel (Sep 5, 2012)

Can't see 'em - might be another case of picking them off the various components.

Moving right along - there's been a bit of a change in the game plan, as I turned up a bit of more suitable stuff for the 'big' gears.


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## Herbiev (Sep 6, 2012)

Picking off the components only tells me the mounting holes for the "supports" are 30mm apart. I cant seem to find a way of finding where on the base plate these mounting holes are drilled. Is it possible for someone that is familiar with computer CAD stuff to shed any light on this. Without measurements on the plans it has got me stumped


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## tel (Sep 6, 2012)

Can't help much there I'm afraid - the more I look at these plans the more stuff I see missing


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 6, 2012)

then there is the valve porting issue, if one looks closely, the
valves are 6.4mm dia, and the port they open into is only
6mm dia.
there is no drilling detail shown for inlet/ex gases, nor anywhere
to bolt on a carby.

Also there is a huge amount of potential compression lost in the
large porting volume, my calcs suggest with the piston up against
the head a max comp ratio of only 3.4 - 1 is achievable.
Someone will need to check my calcs tho!

Has anyone seen a working model from these drawings?

Google reveals some interesting information about the 
designer.

In the meantime, my chipmaking has ceased.

Dave


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## Herbiev (Sep 7, 2012)

I have managed to contact the designer and he seems happy to answer questions so I shall post the above queries to him. I shall also ask if there are any construction notes and if we can see a working model


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 7, 2012)

well done!

Maybe there is a completed set of drawings available,

free ??

Dave


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## Herbiev (Sep 7, 2012)

Thats what I'm hoping for. He seems genuinely interested and said "thanks for building this engine" so I gave him the web site address and invited him to join and follow our progress.


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## tel (Sep 10, 2012)

Damn, damn, damn. damn, damn,  damn, damn. damn, damn,  damn, damn. damn, damn,  damn, damn. damn, damn,  damn, damn. damn, damn,  damn, damn. damn, damn.

Made an extra pinion blank, as you all know, and then proceeded to roon *TWO*!!!!!! So back to making some more blanks - +2 this time!

The good news is the 'big' gear cutting went without a hitch - got 8 of them on hand now.


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## tel (Sep 14, 2012)

Gear cutting done, just got to drill and tap them all for M3 grubs and run them in in pairs now. Probably tackle a run of spark plugs next.


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## Herbiev (Sep 14, 2012)

You have been busy Tel. I got all the bases cut and squared up http://emob1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff463/Herbiev1/image-1.jpg?t=1347610735
Still waiting for response from designer re hole positions
http://emob1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff463/Herbiev1/image-2.jpg
Meanwhile I'm halfway thru the bushes and hope to do the pushrod ends Mon


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 14, 2012)

great work Tel, Herbie, looks great.
While you have been working, Ive been relaxing 1000kms from home in the
Hunter valley wineries region,tasting suitable Wines for my son Lee's wedding
tomorrow  
But I will be home again monday, all I have completed is the valves and retainers.
Bit unsure about heads and ports, so have not continued with them, or do you 
think I should continue as per drawings?

Dave


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## Herbiev (Sep 15, 2012)

Dave. Continue as per drawings and I shall give Didier Yvron another message to try and get the missing info. Good luck with the wedding


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## tel (Sep 15, 2012)

Yep, good luck to all involved, and enjoy the wine. They make, from memory, a rather fine Le Gopener.


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## Kaleb (Sep 16, 2012)

I've been slowly making some swarf on this project, I've got one flywheel nearly done, but ruined my first go at a fuel tank support column. Ah well, these things happen.


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 29, 2012)

Back on deck again, recovered from wedding etc
Dunno about the RAAF guys tho!  They found the Le Mouthopener!!
Tel, I think the Le Gopener got shelved!

Have the valve seats all but completed as _I_ have problem finding
suitable springs or wire to make them.
I havve however assembled 1 valve set with a slightly larger ID spring
and I think it will work well. (4.7mm ID)
However this is a deviation from the original plans. Not sure we should be
doing that.
Open to suggestions here!
Will post a pic maybe tomorrow, cant get macro to focus properly on
them as they are so small.

Dave


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## Herbiev (Sep 29, 2012)

I just got it. Doh! LeG Opener. Only took 2 weeks. Dave, I wouldn't worry too much about small deviations as there are quite a few measurements missing there is bound to be some deviation. As long as we communicate well there should be no drama.


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## metalmad (Sep 29, 2012)

ausdier said:


> At this stage I won't put my hand up to build any of the parts, but if more detailed plans or any modifications to customise for the build are required then I would like to help.
> This way everyone can also have an input into the look, material selection style for the build and then see exactly what the end result should be like.
> Also if people needed to be able to make parts in imperial I could convert the parts perfectly for them.


 
Hay guys 
This plan set looks like it needs a bit of work, why dont we get Ausdier to post his detailed workshop drawings for this Engine??
Pete


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## tel (Oct 1, 2012)

That gets my vote Pete - there is a lot of info not there that needs to be.


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi all,
finaly got the bucket to work! so here's the out of focus 
pics from a couple of weeks ago (if it works)

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q729/dieselfx1/teamPB1.jpg

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q729/dieselfx1/teamPB2.jpg

Ausdier, I wandered if you had any problems when u did your 3D
pics of this engine,
I have a few bits that dont fit, as per supplied plans,
can u help us here?

I am Sloooowly fiddling with the valving desgn here.

Dave


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## tel (Oct 7, 2012)

Lookin' good Dave, and I finally got all the gear hubs drilled, tapped and grub screws fitted today - so they are right to go.


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## ausdier (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi Dave,
I can't remember if I had any problems with the plans.
I would have to look back over them.
The good thing about CAD is that I simply draw what I can from the information supplied and then basically fill in the blanks when I assemble it.
Then I annimate it and if there is somthing that doesn't work the CAD program will tell me what and where the problem is.
Even holes that don't match by 0.00000001mm won't go together so unless what I draw is right I can't put it together in CAD.
If things like fillets in corners are missing I look at what size looks right to the drawing and then make them to a standard size.
If you like I can post workshop drawings of the parts that you are having problems with.
Just let me know.


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## Herbiev (Oct 7, 2012)

Ausdier. I wonder if you can supply the missing info on the position of the base plate holes and the missing info on the pushrod support. Thanks in advance


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## tel (Oct 8, 2012)

Embryo spark plugs


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## Herbiev (Oct 9, 2012)

Looking good Tel. That coin in the centre is my fortnightly pension 
http://emob1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff463/Herbiev1/Mobile Uploads/IMG_4008.jpg
Finally finished the bushes. Base plates cut to size and waiting to be drilled. Just started push rod supports. Tiny little buggers aren't they ?


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## Bastelmike (Oct 9, 2012)

metalmad said:


> Hay guys
> This plan set looks like it needs a bit of work, why dont we get Ausdier to post his detailed workshop drawings for this Engine??
> Pete


 
Hay guys,

seems to me a very common problem in TBs that the blueprints are not complete, lack some dimensions or even contain errors.

The downloads section contains a lot of nice plans, fantastic and inspiring. The sad thing about it is when I took a closer look at several plan sets, I found a lot of these errors.
A team build might look like a good start in model engine building for someone like me new to model engines (I'm no novice to metalworking), but doing a team built with incomplete plans scares me.
Especially in a team built parts are to be made hundreds or thousands of kilometres apart and this calls for very detailed plans, as far as possible free of errors and omissions.

In commercial machinery fabrication drawings for parts that are manufactured by another company are usual very exact made, with tolerances for nearly everything. Goal is to avoid any doubts about dimensions, tolerances, geometrical tolerances and surface finishes.

If You fabricate something in Your shop, its no big deal if something is missing, but if fabrication is scattered in 10 shops specifations for every part should be clear.

This problem is one reason I'm not really willing to join a team built now. Nevertheless I hope to read about progress of Your team built.

Good luck
Mike


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## tel (Oct 9, 2012)

Rof}Yeah, it's about the share I get out of my pension as well. Bushes are looking good! 

Yes Mike, most ME plans have errors and omissions - just needs your 'team' to be pretty well coordinated to get around it.


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## metalmad (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Tel
I must admit one look at that plan set turned me off real quick too but im glad you fellers are making progress
What are you going to do for a fuel system?
Pete


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## tel (Oct 9, 2012)

Dunno yet Pete - with a little bugger like this a fuel vapor carb might be the best way.


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 9, 2012)

next question, where you gonna put it in??  haha

Need some holes to get the air/fuel (dust, etc!) in,
and also to let the flames out!


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## ausdier (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Herbie,
Sorry for the delay but I was flying yesterday.
Anyway here is what I came up with I hope it is what you are looking for.
With the push rod support info, from what I can see all the required info is there?
About the only info that isn't there is how to attach it so I presume it was ment tto be soldered on.
As for Mikes post #77, this is the reason why I made the offer back on post #30.
I find that about 90% of the older plans (pre CAD ) tend to have errors in them and even some of those done in 2D CAD can have errors.
After all computers are only as good as what we *punch* into them.;D 

View attachment BASE.pdf


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Ausdier
did you resize the valve to get it to fit into the transfer port?


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## ausdier (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Dave.
Short answer is no, this is one of the areas where things didn't workout properly (valve 6.5 dia port 6 dia ) So if people wanted to sort out the plans I would have asked how people wanted to go in this area.
The same as the inlet side as there is no info about carby or anything.
This is where I was going to rely on everyones experiance and if some one couls supply information on what might work I would scale it if nessesary and then do workshop drawings for all.
This can still happen if people want as it would be a shame if this project stopped and parts that had been made were either scrapped (shelved) or had to be remade.


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Ausdier,
Thats ok, I will draw up something feasible for discussion in the next day or 
so and put it on here. 
Should we also look at the compression ratio, that is rather low in my opinion
other team members probably know better than me if it will be enough.
My calcs show less than 4 to 1.

Now that we are redesigning the engine should we watermark/copywrite
drawings etc?  (redesigned for Australian conditions  )

As you say, would be a shame to drop the project.

Dave


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## tel (Oct 10, 2012)

meanwhile, experimental plug #1, teflon insulator and stainless electrode. Might be next week before I can test it and move forward, town day tomorrow and heading down to Batemans for the weekend Fri.


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## Bastelmike (Oct 10, 2012)

ausdier said:


> Hi Herbie,
> As for Mikes post #77, this is the reason why I made the offer back on post #30.
> I find that about 90% of the older plans (pre CAD ) tend to have errors in them and even some of those done in 2D CAD can have errors.
> After all computers are only as good as what we *punch* into them.;D


Hi Ausdier,

that's what I found out too. And even 3D models can have errors, they are easier to find in 3D, but only took a closer look.

During last weekend I've tried to draw the David Kerzel Engine in 3D as preparation for a metrification.
I'll make a separate thread on the problems I found in the first blueprints of the plan set.

Mike


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## Herbiev (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks Ausdier. The info on the pushrod support is there as you say. Just a bit hidden for a newbie. This CAD stuff seems great. Where is a good starting point to learn ?


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## ausdier (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi Herbie,
Starting in CAD, you can go many ways.
You need to decide if you want to use a more mainstream CAD package like Soliddworks or if you want to try one of the many freebe versions out on the web.
If you pick a freeby you will have to learn what everything does through trial and error or by reading the help files and asking a lot of questions on line.
If you know someone close who already knows and uses CAD they may be able to help you in a few ways.
Or you can go to TAFE or TECH whatever it is called and learn Inventor, which is another more main stream CAD.
However whichever way you eventually go you will find it so helpfull in every aspect.
I use either Inventor Pro 2012 or Solidworks Pro 2012 myself, as well as Mastercam X5, for my CAM work and Mach 3 for when I eventually get one of my mills converted to CNC.
I know this may not be all that much help but there are a million different views and everyone has their own opinion.


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## AussieJimG (Oct 10, 2012)

FWIW Herbie, I went to Tech and did AutoCAD which is way too expensive for home use. So I used TurboCAD to do 2D drawings. I didn't try 3D because I thought it was too hard.

Then John Stevenson from NZ introduced me to Alibre 3D as the simplest way to make 2D drawings. It is really easy to make the 3D parts and then you just tell the program to draw it in 2D - and you choose any or all of front, back, right, left, top, bottom and four isometrics. The dimensions are all there. And if you change the 3D model, the 2D drawing changes automatically.

You create each part and then put them together in the assembly. For engines, you can then turn the crankshaft and watch the piston move and even see where it goes (measure clearances etc). And change the colour of the parts to see what it will look like (if that's your bag).

You can print the drawings as .pdf if you wish and you can include .jpegs in the drawings as well.

It took no time at all to learn to use it and there are heaps of really good tutorials. You can even Google something you want to do and usually find the answer.

You can download the full version for 30 day trial for FREE and the Personal Edition (which is what I use) is only about $200.

Why not give it a go. You have nothing to lose (and I have nothing to gain, I am just a satisfied user).

Jim


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## Herbiev (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks Ausdier and Jim. Alibre sounds promising. 30 day free trial and the misus can get me the full version for xmas. Just gotta be a good boy for a few weeks


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## Herbiev (Oct 11, 2012)

Got a small problem with threading the base plates. The tapping drill I resharpened halfway through proceedings drilled hole sizes varying from 2.7 to 3mm. Too big for a 3mm tap  Would it be ok to get a new 3mm drill and tap the holes 3.5mm instead of 3mm. The only other option I can think of would be to fill the holes with "Liquid Steel" or similar and drill new holes or totally remake the whole base plates. Please advise. 
Tia Herbie


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## ausdier (Oct 11, 2012)

What if you just drilled 3mm through and then counter bored the bottom of the base and put a nut under there ?


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## tel (Oct 11, 2012)

4BA might be a better choice - easier, I think, than M3.5 for most of us to get hold of.


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## Herbiev (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I'll take the 4BA route if thats ok with everyone. Just pm me if you want the counter bore method.


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## Bastelmike (Oct 12, 2012)

M3.5 is probably no good solution if You guys want to buy bolts and nuts.
M3.5 is no standardized size in metric for bolts. Dunno the supply situation in Australia, but no local hardware store in Europe sells them. Just looked for two larger online-supplier for bolts and they don't list them either.

I know You can buy taps M3.5, but bolts might be difficult to get.
My advice don't go with M3.5

Mike


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## ausdier (Oct 12, 2012)

Going 4BA might be fine but for me, and remember I am not building anything for this engine, is that I hate to mix differant styles eg metric and imperial in the same project. Just my 2c worth.


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## tel (Oct 14, 2012)

It is better to avoid mixed marriages, yes, BUT in this instance 4BA works out just right, and they they are easily available.

Besides which, BA (British Association) are a metric based bolt in any case.


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 21, 2012)

Sorry guys, been down the South Island for nearly a week, (Tassie, that is!)
Anyway, havent done much except the rough sketch link below.

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q729/dieselfx1/TeamBuildPB3.jpg

Changes,
A 1   spigoted valve cage into Cyl head ports
A 2   Reduced valve dia to 5.7 mm
B      Altered retainer to include in/ex ports and mounting capscrews
D      Head includes transfer ports 

I will post related blurb later tonight.

Dave


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 23, 2012)

Well,  tonight has arrived 4 days later!!

Mmm,,  and I thought the above post might have drawn some comments

Anyway my main objective was to show my thoughts on an
inlet/exhaust port design as in sketch F, ( intake port 1 and
exhaust port 2), by altering the retainer as in sketch B, 
showing the port 1. and the mounting bolts 2.
Cage would be pressed into retainer and drilled thru for
gas passage.
Most overall dimensions remain as original.
Looks a bit ugly!  I really hope someones got a better idea!

what do you guys think?
Is it worth getting ausdier to draw it up properly?

The rest I was just fiddling with, thought I could make the
transfer port as part of the Cyl head as in sketch D and E,
with a blanking plate in the end as D 1.
my thought was of all that weight of carby, exhaust, valve gear
etc hanging off those two tiny bolts.
The other thing I was fiddling with was the dead volume of the 
transfer port, ie, its affect on compression and inability to completely
expel exhaust gases.

typing finger has blister now, and brain hqas faded,  good night!


Dave


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## Herbiev (Oct 24, 2012)

If its ok with Ausdier the more info we can get on this build the better.


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## ausdier (Oct 25, 2012)

Sorry guys I have been in hospital for a little time.
Here are a few pictures of something like what has been suggested except I tapped the original blocks after the guides are press in.
The picture represents an M6 thread which should then allow any sort of addapter to be made and then screwed in to take either the exhaust or a carby mount of the groups choosing.
This way there are no real changes to the original parts and if an exhaust or carby design needs to be changed you only need to make the appropriate addapter and screw it in.
As for those two small bolts that Dave is concerned about, I think that due to most of the parts being ally these bolts wil be more than fine.
Still just need a design that everyone wants for an exhaust pipe and carby.
If you would like to see some pictures just send me some info.
Then when everyone is happy I can whip up some workshop drawings for everyone.
Hope this helps.


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## Kaleb (Oct 26, 2012)

I think it would be a good idea to fit a muffler of some description to these engines, because the exhaust is going to make quite a bit of noise with an open port like that.


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## hi speed scrap (Oct 27, 2012)

Hi Ausdier, sorry to hear you have been in hospital, hope all
is well with you.
Your 3d view 07, illustrates one of the issues I was grappling with
in that the valve sits in that recess of the port, effectively sealed
off untill it is lifted 1mm. This leaves only 2mm of travel to exhaust,
resulting in a tiny opening for the gases to pass through.
( 1/3rd of the distance across a 6mm hole,  not opening enough
to allow the engine to breath properly, in my opinion )

Dave


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## ausdier (Nov 1, 2012)

Has anyone seen one of these engines running or does someone know where there is a build log.
Something on youtube maybe ?
Just a little concerned about the compression ratio and the overall operation.


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## Herbiev (Nov 1, 2012)

Ausdier. I have done a search for more info on this engine but come up blank. I contacted the designer with the above questions but no reply so I have serious doubts about this engine. I would also like to thank you for your time in supplying 3d images of the model. They are a great help


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## Herbiev (Nov 2, 2012)

THE CURSE OF THE BASE PLATES. Just finished the batch of base plates and on inspection some of the holes looked out of alignment. Out with the digital calipers and yes, some holes were nearly 1mm out. Out with the MIG plugged them up and tried to re-drill. I dont know what mig wire consists of but it just melted the drill bits. At this stage I remembered the holes were drilled too large anyway, I thought getting a new length of steel and starting over was the best option. This time more care and no short cuts like it should have been done in the first place. 
We live and learn. 
P. S. Anyone know what drills they use for drilling out spot welds?


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## ausdier (Nov 3, 2012)

This is the sort of bit that I use.
The centre is spring loaded.
It is just like a hole saw.
You cut through the piece you dont want then grind/sand down flat what is left.

Also am working on some ideas to keep this engine alive and to not waste any parts that are already made.


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## Herbiev (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks Ausdier. It looks like it cuts around the hard welded part. 
We will end up with a working engine but I got a feeling it wont be smooth sailing   
We have a great forum to help us along the way


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## ausdier (Nov 4, 2012)

Any thoughts :-\


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## Herbiev (Nov 4, 2012)

I am a complete newbie to I.C engines but your drawings look sure help me understand how this one works. To me it looks perfect.


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## hi speed scrap (Nov 4, 2012)

Thats interesting, certainly solves the compression and residual gases problem we were 
facing, perhaps a roller cam follower with a small spring holding the follower against the
cam might be worth considering, as the exhaust valve spring is not very strong and may be 
affected by the weight of the rocker lever.
But. then I guess we could just fit a stronger spring to the exhaust valve.
Got a plan for Ex valve adjustment?

Does this now make it an Australian design? 

Dave.


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## Bastelmike (Nov 4, 2012)

Herbiev said:


> P. S. Anyone know what drills they use for drilling out spot welds?


 
Hello,

usually welds can be machined with HSS if You use the basic welding materials (sticks, wire), though there are several sticks/wire qualities around that are designed to give a hard welded upon surface thats wear resistant and can only get machined with  grinder.

Another issue for machinability is that the steel of the parts is a steel quality suited for welding with low carbon content.
With high carbon steel, the rapid cooling of the weld will cause hardening of the material. Besides this, steel with more than 0,2% carbon tends to develop cracks during welding and its better not to weld it.

Mike


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## ausdier (Nov 4, 2012)

Hey Dave.
With the arm the way it is the centre of gravity is just forward of the pivot point.
Therefore there is no pressure from the arm on the valve.
Yet the pivot point could be moved more towards the cam and this would move more of the weight forward decreasing the chances of pressure on the valve.
If people want a roller follower on the arm that is easy to do as well.
What about an eccentric for exhaust valve adjustment ?
Any ideas bring them up and I will draw them, remember I am not building one of these (yet) so whatever you want just say.
Then as soon as everybody who is in on this build is happy with the end results I will put out drawings for the different parts.


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## ron2 (Nov 4, 2012)

ausdier; I believe you make some of the best, and easiest to understand drawings that I have seen.
 I'm not from your neck of the woods. Just a displaced New Mexican, living in Texas, and loving it.
  I am fairly new here, but your valving concept could be very adaptable to some of the ideas I've
 been tossing around. Maybe this will get me started' as soon as the house is done.
 ron2


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## ausdier (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks a lot guys and girls.
As well as making things I do enjoy CAD (can you tell ;D) and if I can help people with their projects to keep them interested even better. Here is a link to my main current project that I am helping with.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,802.0.html
Then I have a scaled Ford engine to draw for another friend and also trying to squeese in another even more complex engine for a local mate, link here.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,887.15.html
Post #28 can you guess. 
Even help with patterns and casting.


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## hi speed scrap (Nov 16, 2012)

gone quiet in here, Ausdier's modifications are on the right track.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

Dave


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## Herbiev (Nov 16, 2012)

Hi Dave. I think the only reason its quiet in here is because now that we have some workable plans, thanks to Audier, we are all in our workshops making chips


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## hi speed scrap (Nov 16, 2012)

Hi Herbie, OK, well I'm sorta stuck at the moment, but perhaps Ausdier 
has gone a little further with the drawings.
I think he is waiting for a response from all the team members
for approval of the new design before doing working drawings
for the head etc.

Dave

Dave


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## Herbiev (Nov 17, 2012)

Sure has got my approval


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## ausdier (Nov 18, 2012)

Then as soon as everybody who is in on this build is happy with the end results I will put out drawings for the different parts.[/QUOTE]

Good pickup dave.
As yourself and Herb both seem ok with this I will put out some workshop drawings soon.


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## Kaleb (Dec 3, 2012)

How's everyone getting on? I've been making some slow progress with the flywheels.


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## tel (Dec 3, 2012)

Gears are done, but I've had no luck getting to the spark plugs yet


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## hi speed scrap (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi all, 
Tel, probably a good idea to wait on the plugs until ausdier gets back to us 
with the new design heads etc,. May be a slight change perhaps.

Dave


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## ausdier (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi guys,
So sorry for taking so long.
I wish I could say I was so buzy that I couldn't get to it, buuuuuuut, truth is I simply forgot about it, sooooo sorry.
Here is what I thought of for the head.
If you want any changes let me know and I will make them so other people can build a working engine at the end.
I was thinking that maybe there might need to be a small boss on top to give the sparkplug more thread ???
I will post the rest of the parts I have changed within this week.
Cheers. 

View attachment HEAD MODDED.pdf


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## Herbiev (Dec 3, 2012)

Finished my little lot. The other five bases are wrapped up in WD40 soaked paper towel to stop rust
http://emob1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff463/Herbiev1/photo.jpg?t=1354572920
Sorry, cant get the  thing to pop up on Photo bucket. 
Any one need a hand ( simple bits) ?


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## Kaleb (Dec 4, 2012)

Is anyone else doing the pistons and cylinders? If not, I'll take them on. I'm asking since I may need to get yet another boring bar to do the cylinders.


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## metalmad (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi Guys
Photos Please 
Pete


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## ausdier (Dec 5, 2012)

A few more bits to look at.
Should only be one more sheet.
Cheers all. 

View attachment BITS.pdf


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## hi speed scrap (Dec 5, 2012)

Great, thanks ausdier, now I have something to read on the plane at 5am
this morning! 

Dave


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## Kaleb (Dec 28, 2012)

Got 4 of the flywheels done in mild steel. I'll be shipping out once all of my parts are done. Looks like I'll be doing the pistons and cylinders unless someone else wants to make them.


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## Kaleb (Jan 7, 2013)

How's everyone getting on? I haven't seen any updates for a while.


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## wm460 (Jan 7, 2013)

I would be interested in the next team build, I should have a mill then.


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## Herbiev (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi Kaleb. All my bits are done and ready to go.


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## Kaleb (Feb 4, 2013)

The flywheels are done. I've made a start on the fuel tank support columns, but will need a boring bar for the cylinders.


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## hi speed scrap (Feb 5, 2013)

well done Kaleb,
I will post some pics on the heads this weekend.

Dave.


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## hi speed scrap (Feb 15, 2013)

Hi guys,
I have been inundated with work since xmas so progress is a bit slow, however all
heads are machined up, just need threading.
Valves, 10 done
Guides, 4 done.

Having fitted the guides to the head (as pic), it is hit and miss that they line up
squarely with the head, of 4 giudes fitted, only one lines up nicely with the 
head allowing drilling of the exhaust/inlet ports.
I have machined one giude to get correct fit, very time consuming, this thern makes
each head assy a matched set, so parts will not be interchangeable.







Perhaps shims under the guides might work?

Also had to machine the hex back from the end by 0.5mm to stop the corners of
hex from marking the head on assembly.






hopefully get some machining done today, unless shed is an oven!

Dave


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## metalmad (Feb 16, 2013)

Hi Guys
Im really looking forward to seeing this go together
pete


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## gabby (Feb 16, 2013)

Ok curiosity has got me    Whats the piston out of ? it looks quite techo.
Cheers
Graham


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## hi speed scrap (Feb 16, 2013)

Hi Gabby,
Piston is from Cummins Signature engine, approx 137mm dia.
They are hollow crown, (can faintly see oil hole on left side) for
better cooling. This one done 1.4 m k's at 600hp.
It is a bit techo looking I spose. Cat use the same piston too.

Hows the harbour today? full of boats I spose. I spent 20 yrs
cruising the Hauraki and further in our boat, great place!

Dave.


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## ausdier (Feb 17, 2013)

To make the inlet and exhaust guides more interchangable it would simply mean having to make shim washer to go underneath.
With a pitch of 1.5mm and the fact that these don't need to line up in any perfect position.
You could get away with making some washers out of some copper shim of about 0.25mm.
Just an idea. :hDe:


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## gabby (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi there Dave, the harbour is looking great as usual, I just wish I could afford to get out on it more often.
cheers
Graham


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## Kaleb (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm starting to feel like I'm holding up everyone else on this build. Should I just send the flywheels out now? The fuel tank support columns take quite a few different setups to machine, so they take a while. Currently done 3, and nearly finished the 4th, but after I've done that one, I've still got 10 to go. Got several other projects going, as well as my HSC work for 3 of my subjects so please bear with me. After all, slow and steady wins the race. Rushing things gives poor results.


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## Herbiev (Apr 18, 2013)

Hi Kaleb. I for one would be happy for you to send out what you have completed and continue as time permits. Your HSC quite rightly takes priority and as you say " rushing gives poor results".


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## Herbiev (Jun 4, 2013)

Just wondering if anyone else has completed their patrts?


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## hi speed scrap (Jun 4, 2013)

Hi Herbie

All machined up except for valve spring retainers, which
are very fiddly to say the least.
Hopefully get them done in a couple of weeks.

Getting there slowly!

Dave.


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## Herbiev (Jun 5, 2013)

No worries Dave. Just wondering what stage everyone was up to.


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## Cogsy (Sep 1, 2013)

Hey guys - whatever happened with this build? Did anyone end up with a running engine or have you all abandoned the idea?


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## Herbiev (Sep 2, 2013)

Still going Cogsy. All my bits are done. I'm sure the rest ain't far behind.


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## AussieJimG (Sep 2, 2013)

If anyone needs a hand, just sing out. I still have some spare time.

Jim


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 2, 2013)

Hi all,

I have been working in NZ for the last few months, so have not
progressed at all, perhaps I could take up Aussie Jim's kind offer
of helping with the valve spring retainers. 
Otherwise ready for seating valves and pre assembly, oh, and 
thread sparkplug holes, just need to verify the thread used by
sparkplug maker.

Dave


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## AussieJimG (Sep 3, 2013)

Help! It's all in French!!! That's if I am looking at the right drawings.

What sheet are the valve spring retainers on? And what are they called?

And I need to make 6 sets (or is that 7) right?

Jim


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi Jim,
I will send you a drawing in the next day or so, (In Engleeesh)!

7 sets I think from memory.

Dave


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## AussieJimG (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks Dave, I think I have identified it but the hidden lines on the drawing worry me a bit in case there is something I am missing.

Are they brass or steel?

And please send a PM with the address to which I should send them.

I am looking forward to being useful.

Jim


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## AussieJimG (Sep 9, 2013)

Hi Dave,

I think I have made one collet. Think? It is so bloody small that I am not sure. I vacuumed the lathe first so I could find it when I parted it off and I think the bit I picked up is the collet but I won't know until I find a way to hold it to remove the flashes.

So far I have broken all of my 1mm drills but now I have made a sensitive drilling attachment (you wouldn't do it while you still had drills, would you?). Now I have some more drills and can have another go.

Please send the drawings when you can just in case I am making the wrong bit or the right bit the wrong size. And the address for sending them too.

Cheers

Jim


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 9, 2013)

Aaahh, so its not just me then Jim!
I have made a small change to make them a bit easier make.
I have a drawing nearly complete and some samples to
send to you.
Will send a PM later today.
Dave.


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 10, 2013)

Jim, PM sent.

Dave


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## AussieJimG (Sep 10, 2013)

Dave, got the PM and have responded.

Do you think the collets would be ok if I just milled the  slot? The only difference would be lack of radius at the bottom.
But I could then mill the slot for all the collets at once and then shape and part them in the lathe. 
It's just a thought and I don't want to spoil the job just be being lazy.
Let me know (or maybe I should just wait for the drawings)

Jim


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## AussieJimG (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks Dave, I got the drawing and the sample (beautifully made sample) and will start on them tomorrow or Thursday.

Jim


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## hi speed scrap (Sep 17, 2013)

Jim,
Regarding your previous comment on the bottom of the slot, it is
my opinion that it needs to be radiused to match valve stem otherwise
there might not be enough load bearing surface to minimize wear.
I will leave that up to you!
The assembly I sent is the previous design, but valve and retainer
dimensions remain the same.

Dave.


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## AussieJimG (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, we had a few problems and decided to change the design of the collet to use an e-clip instead of a slotted retainer.

It only took a few hours once I got set up for it.

The slotted retainers and the modified ones are on there way to Dave (hi speed scrap).

Jim


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## bmac2 (Nov 9, 2013)

I love this build. I downloaded a set of these plans a while back but had a couple of things that got in the way of starting (My skill level, and lack of French). This is building season now and this _Down Under_ version is looking great.
Ausdier  love your work. I always 3D model everything I try, it helps me get a feel for just whats going to be required. Heck Im a way better machinist in 3D than I am in the shop.
Hi-speed-scrap - if your _shed is an oven_! Youre welcome to use mine. I can run an extension cord out there for ya.
Excellent work all. Cant wait to see it run.


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## Cogsy (Nov 9, 2013)

Boy that looks pretty. The only snow I've ever seen was about 1/4" thick in spots on the ground. Next winter, finances permitting, I'll think drag the kids the 3000 miles to the nearest snowfield and pepper 'em with snowballs.


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## Herbiev (Apr 16, 2014)

Just wondering if there are any updates on this build at all.


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## hi speed scrap (Apr 16, 2014)

Hi Herbie,
all heads, valves, seats, etc are made, 
got to lap valves and do Ex valve springs yet,
will blow the dust off them after easter!

Dave.


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## Herbiev (Apr 16, 2014)

Sounds good to me. Have a great Easter Dave and everyone


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## Herbiev (Sep 17, 2014)

Just wondering if there are any updates on this build at all.


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## Herbiev (Oct 13, 2014)

Anyone else ready ??


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## Herbiev (Nov 20, 2014)

Just wondering if there are any updates on this build at all.
________________ready to send my components out.


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## Kaleb (Nov 28, 2014)

Did the flywheels a while back, but have been distracted by other projects.


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## Herbiev (Nov 29, 2014)

No worries. Not sure how the others are doing.


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## Cogsy (Jan 16, 2015)

I see the other team build is getting back on track. Are you guys going to try and do the same? We're still here watching and waiting guys!


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## Herbiev (Jan 17, 2015)

Shouldn't be long now Cogsy. Most parts are done


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## Herbiev (Mar 20, 2015)

Just wondering if there are any updates on this build at all.
All my parts are done.


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## Kaleb (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm ready to send out the flywheels. Some of them are a bit rough but I've since improved my skills.


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## barnesrickw (Mar 21, 2015)

Build something loud so it can be called "the thunder from down under".


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## Herbiev (Jun 13, 2015)

Hi all. It's been almost 3 years now since this project started. Just wondering if there are any updates ??


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## Kaleb (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm ready to ship my flywheels. Just need to know where to send them.


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## Herbiev (Jun 14, 2015)

Sounds good to me. Will send address via pm. Just wondering if the valves and springs are done yet. I think High speed Scrap was looking after them.


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## Herbiev (Aug 29, 2015)

Anyone else got parts ready to go ?


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