# Simple minded engine ideas-everyone may post.



## Kermit (Feb 2, 2009)

I'll start with one I think is rather simple but has a nice shape.







With all the trouble over copyrights and plans etc, etc, etc. I would rather work on my own designs. Perhaps I'm just using the copyright thing as an excuse . Yeah, pretty sure I am. 

So anywho - anyone else with anything they want to share feel welcome to put it here. I already know I need lots and lots and lots of teaching, so no need to "be gentle" with me.


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## Maryak (Feb 2, 2009)

Kermit,

Interesting concept.

How is the side thrust absorbed ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## Kermit (Feb 2, 2009)

Okay, let the learning begin.

What exactly is side thrust?


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## scoop (Feb 2, 2009)

Looks to me as if the sidethrust is contained by the slots that the pivot pins run up and down in.A sort of crosshead substitue.I reckon,for what its worth,that if you used a pair of ball races(one in the frame slot and one in the bellcrank)on a common pivot it would be a runner.It would need some care in the machining of all the slots to avoid slop but that should be easy enough as they are just straight slots.When do you start cutting?

 best regards Steve C.


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## Kermit (Feb 2, 2009)

Okay, so I think I understand the concept of side thrust then, and yes it will use slots in a side panel to constrain motion in a vertical line.

I've got most of the piece parts if I can manage to cut 1018 steel. I may have to check them with a file before using them since the shop manager told me some of them may be hardened already. I'll just take them back if thats the case and grab an armful off the shelf and try those. (Lots of rust on most of them. and the ones that don't rust I think I should leave alone till I get the hang of this hobby.) 

So Here is another version that I might use if I want to increase the size of my flywheel assy, but it is not increased in the pic.






Kermit


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## Kermit (Feb 2, 2009)

sorveltaja  said:
			
		

> How will it be powered?



Steam I suppose, or rather "air" for starters. I'm not ready to embark on any IC engines yet.



			
				sorveltaja  said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think that using slots increases mechanical friction quite a lot.



I'm just learning so I'll be happy with it running friction or no friction. ;D

And I suppose I could use any kind of joint, but first I need to get something built. I could endlessly improve it on paper and never actually build anything for fear of building something that "could be better".

The idea of ball joints is a good one and so are ball races. I think I would need a mating plate for them to roll between. I also considered some round rod bearing housings(I have two left from previous job), but then I would need more of them to match. 

Keep them suggestions and observations coming. Thanks,
Kermit


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## mklotz (Feb 2, 2009)

How do you intend to do the valving? Will it be single or double acting?


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## Captain Jerry (Feb 2, 2009)

Kermit

As you may have guessed, I really like offbeat stuff. This looks like fun. Do you think that the mechanism can be made visible or will it have to be enclosed?

Jerry


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## Kermit (Feb 2, 2009)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> How do you intend to do the valving? Will it be single or double acting?



They will be single acting pistons, but the reason there are two is for the double power stroke it gives in one rotation. The valve I was thinking could be a single rotary type that is always on and just place the inputs for the two cylinders on either side for a 180 degree seperation and then somehow get it hooked up to the shaft so that it turns once for every flywheel rotation. Seems easy enough in theory, but I suppose I'll find out. Unless someone has a better idea for a simple valve(hint hint)



			
				Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> Kermit
> 
> As you may have guessed, I really like offbeat stuff. This looks like fun. Do you think that the mechanism can be made visible or will it have to be enclosed?
> 
> Jerry



Jerry, what ever is the "easiest" to do will end up being my course of action. This being my first build and all.

I'm glad everyone so far finds it to be an interesting design,
Kermit


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## gilessim (Feb 2, 2009)

Looks interesting Kermit, it looks to me that you could make it double acting with a carefully thought out slide valve between the two cylinders connected to your dogleg crank somehow,because using a rotary one would involve gears or a belt or something to turn it but if you think about it , two double acting cylinders give "4" power strokes so you can still have one rotation ,also using tiny dentist drill bearings in the slots you could overcome the possible friction problem.

Giles

P.S.you've got me thinking now ;D,


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## Kermit (Feb 6, 2009)

Uhmmmm,,? Just how tiny is "tiny" around these parts. I hadn't envisioned any tiny bits of fumbly things for my numb hands to drop or lose under the heaviest shelf around. I was thinking of making slots around 3/4 of an inch or 16 to 17 mm in Euro length(I kinda like Euro for model making - 24 inch stroke becomes 24 mm stroke) 

Lets say 2-56 screws are the tiniest thing I EVER want to work with and further state that I don't much care for 4-40's but I'll use em. Now that is out of the way, I'll clarify by telling everyone I understand models require tiny detail and sometimes eye loupes etc etc...I have built them for years and years I have just never built a model with "real" parts before. I'm kinda approaching this more as a "real" engine than a model one I suppose ???  No harm in that I guess. 

So, here is where I change subjects on ya!

While reading about pumping engines I found something about a "compensator cylinder". They were attached in pairs to a cross head and would offer resistance to the power stroke as it began. The resistance then reversed and the cylinders offer an acceleration to the end of the power stroke. This was supposed to provide economy and was also spoken of as a flywheel replacement. One could use much less massive flywheels, making a motor lighter thereby providing more power to farmers who used mobile engine platforms(authors suppositions)






The cylinders are connected to a larger chamber and thereby offer a constant pressure. Compression does not take place as would be supposed by the drawing. The pressure in the large chamber being adjusted to whatever value was wanted to ensure smooth running under load. The air was communicated to the inside of the rotating spindle on which the cylinder was suspended no valving needed. A pressure of say 100 psi could be used first to resist the power stroke, then to assist the power stroke near its end. 

Kermit


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## Kermit (Feb 14, 2009)

No comment on the above pictured contraption, but everyone knows more about what I do for a living than I do.........Hmmmmm  That's perfect par for the course, what have I got to complain about. ;D

Seems quiet enough inside this topic, I'll just leave this here for safekeeping.
















Seems I don't know where to put a decimal point either,
Kermit


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## joeby (Feb 14, 2009)

Kermit,

 I can't say as I've seen an engine that actually had the compensating cylinders on it, and I would suppose that it would be a matter of simplicity and maintenance. It may sound good on paper, but you would be replacing flywheel mass with a reservoir and associated piping at least.

 Also, I wonder, how would the reservoir be pressurized in actual use? I would think that over time, leakage would become an issue and the reservoir would have to be re-pressurized, which could be an issue in the field.

 I'm not saying that it won't work, just that it may be more problems than it's worth. Then again, I could be completely misunderstanding your intention.

 This looks like an idea hatched out back in the days when there existed no box in which to be constrained. There were many unusual ideas, some very interesting, but simplicity usually wins out.

Kevin


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## Kermit (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks for responding after my verbal flogging Kevin. Perhaps my doctor should increase my pain meds  I've been an a$$2#% these past few days. 

Flywheel placement idea.







Using same parts and slot length for all expect the length of the flywheel connecting Rod and the diameter of the Flywheel itself.

Kermit


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## joeby (Feb 15, 2009)

Kermit,

 I pay very little attention to arguments (my wife taught me that I can't win anyway), and I know next to nothing about the subject at hand, so I'm good here.

 Back to the design, were you planning to try incorporating the compensators into your design? After a little more thought, I think you could make the engine framework work as a reservoir to keep things compact. Might be interesting to try.

Kevin


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## Kermit (Feb 15, 2009)

You mean enclosing my dogleg crank on six sides and using it as the pressure reservoir?, sans the flywheel? Hmmm...

I think I might need to become a little better acquainted with making a piston that can drive an engine first. These compensators look like they need a closer precision fit than an ordinary steam engine piston might need. I would like to try that idea though. And Jerry asked somewhere way back in this thread if I planned to make the internal workings visible.  That idea has stuck with me as well. A plexiglass body holding air pressure and containing those compensation cylinders all movement of the crank and piston rods being visible from all sides?? That would be VERY cool Jerry. 8) Although I don't think I'm in possesion of the the skills that I might need just _yet_.

Wow, I'm easy to entertain,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Feb 16, 2009)

compensation cylinders added to sketch


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## Kermit (Feb 21, 2009)

300 RPM will give me 3600 RPM. Perhaps to drive an electric generator or if smaller a grinder or sanding wheel or belt or.... 

Kermit


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## Kermit (Feb 23, 2009)

This one isn't mine but I think it belongs


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## Kermit (Mar 7, 2009)

more parts for the model engine.






And a drawing with explaination for the valve.


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## Kermit (Mar 8, 2009)

wobbler motor working at the base of a triangle support for a flywheel. Make the triangle plate larger and put the flywheel in the middle and add two more wobbler pistons and...


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## Kermit (Mar 10, 2009)

I've started making the parts list and drawings for the Vertical Osc. Engine. whose build instructions are already uploaded here as a pdf file.

I'll add the completed/updated parts list and drawings to the pdf files when I have a working model built.






Lovingly, for those who give a hoot,
Kermit

Edit: added the pdf with the overall parts view, minus the gaskets and screws etc. More complete drawing made as I go. 

View attachment Vert Osc 1 Cyl.pdf


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## Kermit (Mar 10, 2009)

The A-frame is dimensioned and drawing has been made

It can be downloaded here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B2J6L1XS

Hoot and Nanny,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Mar 11, 2009)

found the little hidden setting that you click to get to another set of options.

Now I can attach a file here instead of megaAdvertload 

Endlessly entertaining everyone else,
endlessly entertaining everyone else,
ditto,
Kermit 

View attachment Vert Osc build_up.pdf


View attachment Vert Osc 1 Cyl.pdf


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## Kermit (Mar 31, 2009)

More simple pictures that are of incredible importance to me.

more SIMPLE stuff from my simple mind,
Kermit 











I'm getting ahead of myself,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm designing the steam block for the oscillator and I'm not sure I can do "slots"

I am sure that round holes are possible. So....






I'm thinking the one with holes would be the one I need to go for first time around and go for the slotted design when I get a mill.


thanks for letting me talk myself into it 
Kermit


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## bearcar1 (Apr 2, 2009)

Your project is looking good so far Kermit. If you have Dremel style rotary tool available. you could use it with judicial usage to open out the drilled holes into the slots that you are thinking about. A very small diamond bit and a lot of patience are the needs of the day for that method as well as a steady hand. Of course the drilled passages would be fine in that application as well, and simpler too. Whichever method that you decide to go with, by all means keep us posted of your progress (or setbacks) as we can all learn from the experience.

Jim B.


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## Maryak (Apr 2, 2009)

Kermit,

When you have drilled the four holes, press fit a lump of brass into each and then you will be able to drill a third and sixth hole between them.

Hope that helps and makes sense. ??? ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## Kermit (Apr 6, 2009)

I know exactly what you are up to with the brass plugs - redrilling between them, but my lack of any true experience with these things prevents me from thinking of it.   Something that is present-information I KNOW, but then can't bring forth with any presence of mind when presented with a problem calling for that solution.) Bah!

 ;D I'm hooked and I haven't made a chip yet!

So while I wait for paint to dry on my million dollar pedastal for a hunk of chinese iron  I've been doing more 'figurin'

Some of you will get that  



I have a finalized form and size for all the major pieces. The bore will be 1 inch and the stroke will be 2 1/2 inches. The flywheel will be 5 inches across.  I'm starting to think some nice oak or hickory posts would work really well on the A frame.

So with the third version comes the final form. At least until I start making parts 

Hoot, hoot,
Kermit 

View attachment Vert Osc 1 Cyl_REV_C.pdf


View attachment Steamchest detail_1.pdf


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## Kermit (Apr 12, 2009)

It's that time of the week for me to "reply" to my very own little thread. Then I get some popcorn and click the link and admire the work.  Or something like that hey! ;D

Just another piece of the puzzle . The flywheel design decided on and drawing made. This time complete with a rotated 25 degree perspective view. Strange angle to choose but I'm trying to learn these things from books and don't have a teacher as such. 

The Vert Osc 1 cyl plans have been upgraded as well; to Revision D now.  Wonder where I'll be when I finally have a working first engine?  ???

Why, right here of course.  Silly question, no?

Kermit 

View attachment Vert Osc 1 Cyl REV_D.pdf


View attachment Vert Osc_Parts_Flywheel.pdf


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## Kermit (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm only able to use Google SketchUp at work. The 3D model is progressing slowly while I learn 3D drafting.

I'm done, as you were!
Kermit


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## Kermit (May 4, 2009)

Just a little note on slide valve construction

as you were,
Kermit 

View attachment Mechanism_of_Steam_Engines.pdf


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## rickharris (May 4, 2009)

Thinking about Put Put boats the other day I got to thinking I wonder if it would work big scale?

then I made a connection between the V1 Ram jet and the put put idea - as below.






The external heat source could be anything - charcoal for example. The air space heats up and expands, as the water in the "cylinder" is pushed below the waterline the air is in contact with and cooled by the river water and contracts - there may be some room here for a Stirling type displacer to improve the heat/cool effect.

More water is allowed to enter through a Venetian blind type valve at the front assisted by forward movement to repeat the cycle.

As an alternative I guess a flash boiler and spraying water in with a pump would be a simplier approach using the generated steam to create a jet at the back.

I guess try it and see if it works is the answer - could be interesting if your not looking for great speed but highly flexible fuel source.


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## Kermit (May 4, 2009)

That's a unique design. Wouldn't the tubing directions need to be more "in-line" with any thrust generated by the water flow?

As opposed to the ninety degree bend you have in the drawing?


Thanks for the addition to the thread Rick,
Kermit


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## rickharris (May 4, 2009)

The overall design would need refining - just trying to get the principle over with the diagram as I have no idea if it would work.

A displacer should be fairly easy to implement as well to improve the gas flow. It's really a liquid piston Stirling engine.


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## AlanHaisley (May 24, 2009)

Kermit  said:
			
		

> While reading about pumping engines I found something about a "compensator cylinder". They were attached in pairs to a cross head and would offer resistance to the power stroke as it began. The resistance then reversed and the cylinders offer an acceleration to the end of the power stroke. This was supposed to provide economy and was also spoken of as a flywheel replacement. One could use much less massive flywheels, making a motor lighter thereby providing more power to farmers who used mobile engine platforms(authors suppositions)
> 
> The cylinders are connected to a larger chamber and thereby offer a constant pressure. Compression does not take place as would be supposed by the drawing. The pressure in the large chamber being adjusted to whatever value was wanted to ensure smooth running under load. The air was communicated to the inside of the rotating spindle on which the cylinder was suspended no valving needed. A pressure of say 100 psi could be used first to resist the power stroke, then to assist the power stroke near its end.



The idea being, I suppose, to even out the use of power - capture some early in the stroke and apply it later. For this to work at all, the cylinders would need to be double acting, otherwise the drag on the upstroke would probably stop the works. A double acting engine where steam is fed alternately to one end of the cylinder and then to the other end, might work with these.

For pressurizing the reservoir, assume a small air pump driven by the engine. With a diverter valve on the line, it could be decoupled when the desired pressure was reached.

Actually there will be compression cycles. The amount will be based on the total volume change, not just the volume change in the small cylinders. You might be able to get the same effect by using open cylinders and compression springs.

Alan


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## Kermit (Aug 17, 2009)

I've probably just re-invented the wheel here. I was troubled by thinking I had to get the distances just right so things would line up. I found however, that in this type of layout the valve is sized to the drilled through openings and then you just add a few percent more or less for your steam cutoff. One could just make his cylinder then drill his inlet and exhuast ports and after all that is done measure up the distances and turn up a valve cylinder to fit...

right????


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## ebtm3 (Aug 19, 2009)

Kermit-

I'm new here, and if I had been around earlier, I would have mentioned this when you posted your initial drawings.

Pins running in slots have a very limited life under the conditions that exist in an engine- so the first thing that comes to mind is to use some sort of a rolling bearing on the pin. What few realize is that when the bearing is moving (lets say) up in the slot, loads are pushing it to one side of the slot, causing it to rotate. When it gets to the top, it reverses and starts down, but the loads push it to the other side of the slot- and make it rotate the other direction. While this works fine in slow speed operations (< 100 reversals per minute, depending on bearing mass and inertia) at even slow engine speed the bearing is not able to respond, and just skids, becoming, in effect, just a larger pin. Drawing this out roughly on paper will show you what I'm talking about. The usual way to resolve the problem is to use a block that slides in the slot, with the pin "rotating' in the center- look inside a metal shaper- you will see this arrangement.

Herb Kephart


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## Kermit (Aug 24, 2009)

ebtm3  said:
			
		

> ...use a block that slides in the slot, with the pin "rotating' in the center- look inside a metal shaper- you will see this arrangement.
> 
> Herb Kephart



So it needs to be arranged more like a cross head then. Thanks for the insights; I would have adopted the roller bearing idea and not have known about the cross forces distorting the race and locking up the bearing. 

Does increasing the axial length of the bearing surface compensate for this effect or does the length of increase required to achieve stability render the bearing overly large?

Kermit


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## Kermit (Aug 30, 2009)

killing time with some idea drawings, since the miniature endmills in 3/32 and 5/64 didn't come by Fridays last delivery.

Just more adaptions to a single acting cylinder with piston valve, hopefully, designed so as to be easy(er) to machine. Easy being a relative term paired with experience.

Hope someone finds these useful








			
				Kermit  said:
			
		

> Does increasing the axial length of the bearing surface compensate for this effect or does the length of increase required to achieve stability render the bearing overly large?



I was hoping to get an answer. The posters original information indicated he might know something about it.  :-\  (shoulder shrug)

I'll go back to whatever I was doing before stopping to bother you nice people,
Kermit 

View attachment drawing dated 8-29-09-a.pdf


View attachment drawing dated 8-29-09-a.pdf


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## Kermit (Sep 29, 2009)

putting a steam jacket on a cylinder case is supposed to be good for economy...limiting condensation in the piston bore and preventing loss of some heat as steam enters the cylinder.

What if the outside of the cylinder was well insulated, and instead of being immersed in steam, the steam is allowed to 'circulate' through out the cylinder block before entering a piston. This should preheat the cylinder block and prevent excessive condensation shouldn't it? I assume it will. And I'm assuming we are running non-condensing and exhausting steam above atmospheric pressure. 







View attachment Steam inlet block heater.pdf


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## Kermit (Dec 23, 2009)

Compound engines were well developed by the time gasoline engines came along, so naturally the priciple was tried on them. Here is an interesting version. A center piston is driven by exhaust gas in the manner of a LP cylinder in a compound machine. It also recieves its power on every down stroke, alternating with the exhaust stroke of the piston on either side.






I thought it was a neat idea, but then again, I'm easily impressed.  


 :big:,
Kermit


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## Kermit (Dec 26, 2009)

another simple beauty of an idea for boiler water input under pressure. Four pipes, four valves and an extra tank.






Kermit


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