# Calculating Hole Size For Odd Thread Sizes



## lkrestorer (Nov 13, 2021)

I have been searching the internet for a simple formula to calculate a hole size to use for internal threading of odd sizes with not much luck. As an example: if I were to have a threaded tube that I wanted to make a matching cap for and the tube O.D. was .800", how would I calculate the inside diameter of the cap I was making before I threaded it?

My guess is that there is one formula that would work with any diameter. I can't find it. Will someone help?


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## danallen (Nov 13, 2021)

Subtract the thread pitch from the nominal diameter.


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## lkrestorer (Nov 13, 2021)

Forgive my density but using a .800" tube with 32 TPI would need what diameter hole?


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## Scott_M (Nov 13, 2021)

Here is the formula for obtaining tap drill size, right off of my CTD chart.







So for .800 and  a 32tpi with 100 % thread ( use more like 75-85% )
.01299x 100=1.299/32=.0405 ( this is double thread depth )
So   .800"-.040" =.760" tap drill size.


Scott


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## danallen (Nov 13, 2021)

.800 - .031 = .769  
OD  minus thread pitch in thousandths


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## lkrestorer (Nov 13, 2021)

Ok, using a known standard of a 1/4-20 bolt and using a 75% thread:  0.01299 x 75 = 0.97425 / 20 = 0.049 then 0.250 - 0.049 = 0.201 which is a #7 drill.

Next, 0.800-32 with a 75% thread: 0.01299 x 75 = 0.9475 / 32 = 0.0296 then 0.800 - 0.0296 = 0.7704

This appears to work out but, danallen, you came up with 0.769 and that's pretty darn close but .... "OD minus thread pitch in thousandths" (?) where did the ".031" come from or is it a typo for .032?  I realize it is just a matter of 1 or 2 thousandths difference in hole size but I want to clarify it.

Thank you very much for the help.  I do appreciate it.


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## danallen (Nov 13, 2021)

No typo. The decimal equivalent of 1/32, the thread pitch in question, is .0312. I dropped the .0002


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## lkrestorer (Nov 13, 2021)

OK, I think I've got it.

Back to the 1/4-20 as a standard:  You are taking the 20 TPI as 1/20 so  0.250 - 0.05 = 0.200 and the closest size drill is still #7.

The other formula does pretty much the same thing with a lot more math.  This one fits in the brain with some room to spare.  

Thanks for the clarification.


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## GrahamJTaylor49 (Nov 14, 2021)

You could try looking in the "Machineries Screw Thread Book" It has never failed me.


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## shorrog (Nov 14, 2021)

Hi guys, just checking but does the thread depth not depend upon the thread profile? So for threads with an angle of 60 deg eg Metric , Cycle, UNT etc  it works but with threads such as BA, BSF  where the angle is not 60 deg its not so accurate.
Graham


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## danallen (Nov 14, 2021)

shorrog said:


> Hi guys, just checking but does the thread depth not depend upon the thread profile?
> Graham


Correct. Subtracting the pitch from the nominal OD only works for 60 degree threads either metric or American.


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## nealeb (Nov 14, 2021)

For a given thread pitch and thread form (e.g. UN series, Whitworth form) the thread depth is always the same, whatever the diameter. So, a 1/2x32TPI thread has exactly the same thread depth as a 1/4x32TPI. If you can't find the tapping size drill for a given hole (because it's non-standard, for example) then look in the table for a same-TPI thread of the same family (UN, Whit...) and find the difference between overall diameter and tapping drill size. Then use that to find the tapping size drill for your non-standard thread - take away the "difference" just found from the OD of the thread and that's your tapping size drill. Minimal arithmetic!


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## SmithDoor (Nov 14, 2021)

I like picking a even number from the lathe.
If lathe has a 8tpi lead screw them pick 8,16,24,32 and 40tpi I do need to use a thread dial.
If lathe has a 6tpi then pick 6,12,18,24,30 and 36.
This trick also works for metric too.

Basically multiple the leadscrew by 1x,2x,3x,4x,5x and 6x and do not need to uses a thread dial 

Dave



lkrestorer said:


> I have been searching the internet for a simple formula to calculate a hole size to use for internal threading of odd sizes with not much luck. As an example: if I were to have a threaded tube that I wanted to make a matching cap for and the tube O.D. was .800", how would I calculate the inside diameter of the cap I was making before I threaded it?
> 
> My guess is that there is one formula that would work with any diameter. I can't find it. Will someone help?


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## Gene Pizzoli (Nov 14, 2021)

lkrestorer said:


> I have been searching the internet for a simple formula to calculate a hole size to use for internal threading of odd sizes with not much luck. As an example: if I were to have a threaded tube that I wanted to make a matching cap for and the tube O.D. was .800", how would I calculate the inside diameter of the cap I was making before I threaded it?
> 
> My guess is that there is one formula that would work with any diameter. I can't find it. Will someone help?


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## Gene Pizzoli (Nov 14, 2021)

The ID of the matching part would be based on the number of threads per inch assuming the standard 60 degree thread. The pitch diameter is the standard method of measuring a thread. This would be the match up for an internal thread plus allowing for class of fit. Considering the limited measuring devises for the average hobby guy you will find when you get close the what you what, it will be cut and try. Hope this helps, Gene


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## Richard Hed (Nov 15, 2021)

The thing with the 60deg forms is that all three sides of the form, form an equilateral triangle.  That is, the three sides are exactly the same.  what three sides?  well the two side of a cut are two and the third is peak to peak (or vally to valley.)  If you form a right triangle to any one of the sides to a peak opposite from it, you can use Pythagorean Theorem to calculate the depth of the cut.  Actually you have two o0ptions  one is to actually cut a bit deeper by a few thou or to make you OD a bit smaller in the first place than what is nominal.  You can also use trigonometry (my dad taught me triggernometry which is what I thot I was going to lern in hiskool), but unless you dig trigonometry, I won't bore you with it.


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## awake (Nov 15, 2021)

Here is the program that I keep on an old TI-8X calculator; it asks for the diameter and the thread pitch, and it returns the diameter for OD and ID, along with compound movement needed to achieve different thread engagement. Note some assumptions: this assumes the compound is set at 30° and that the tool tip is properly sized for the thread pitch. Note also that even though it is written with the assumption of imperial units, you can use it for metric so long as you convert the measurements - which you can actually enter as the input, e.g., 10/25.4 for a 10mm diameter, 25.4/1.5 for a 1.5mm thread.

TI-82 Program: THREADS
Fix 4
Degree
ClrHome
Input "DIAMETER: ",D
Input "TPI: ",P
(cos 30)/8/P->X
ClrHome
Disp "DIAMETER"
Disp "  INSIDE:"
Disp "  OUTSIDE:"
D-9*X->I
D-X->O
Output(2,11,I)
Output(3,11,O)
Disp “”
Disp "COMPOUND"
Disp " .875:"
Disp " .750:"
Output(8,2," .625:")
Output(6,11,.875/P)
Output(7,11,.750/P)
Output(8,11,.625/P)


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## lkrestorer (Nov 25, 2021)

I was making an arbor for machining features on the body of an engine project that I've started and I wanted to test this. I wanted to thread the one end of the shaft and make a nut for it – but wanted to do it the right way. I chose the simplest method posted here (shaft diameter - 1/threads per inch). In my case I had a shaft (the arbor) that was 1.249” and I decided on 20 TPI (1.249 - 1/20 = 1.249 - 0.05 = 1.199). So a 1.199” hole size – and it worked out very nicely! The threads fit and there is no “wobble” in the assembly (actually my hole was more like 1.2”). The body of the arbor HAD to be exactly 1.249 to fit the bore of the engine so I started with that and wondered how to size the nut to lock it all together.  I could have turned the end of the arbor down to 1.00" and used  the standard drill size for that - but that wouldn't be any fun and wouldn't teach me anything new. I did use the shaft (that I threaded first) as a no-go gauge and snuck up on the finished thread testing after each cut.

I did not have to be concerned with thread form or class.  Standard 60 degree threads were all I needed. For all "normal" holes it is a pretty straight forward drill n' tap adventure.  My situation is something I have run into a couple of times and had a miserable time figuring out - such as making a threaded cap for a small tube.

Next I'll have to try the formula that Scott_M posted and see how I like that.  More play time!

This was fun.  Thank you all.


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## L98fiero (Nov 26, 2021)

lkrestorer said:


> I was making an arbor for machining features on the body of an engine project that I've started and I wanted to test this. I wanted to thread the one end of the shaft and make a nut for it – but wanted to do it the right way. I chose the simplest method posted here (shaft diameter - 1/threads per inch). In my case I had a shaft (the arbor) that was 1.249” and I decided on 20 TPI (1.249 - 1/20 = 1.249 - 0.05 = 1.199). So a 1.199” hole size – and it worked out very nicely! The threads fit and there is no “wobble” in the assembly (actually my hole was more like 1.2”). The body of the arbor HAD to be exactly 1.249 to fit the bore of the engine so I started with that and wondered how to size the nut to lock it all together.  I could have turned the end of the arbor down to 1.00" and used  the standard drill size for that - but that wouldn't be any fun and wouldn't teach me anything new. I did use the shaft (that I threaded first) as a no-go gauge and snuck up on the finished thread testing after each cut.
> 
> I did not have to be concerned with thread form or class.  Standard 60 degree threads were all I needed. For all "normal" holes it is a pretty straight forward drill n' tap adventure.  My situation is something I have run into a couple of times and had a miserable time figuring out - such as making a threaded cap for a small tube.
> 
> ...


FWIW, you can have a 20% thread with a nice fit and no wobble, the percentage of thread is what determines the pull out strength/quality of the thread. That said, according to the machinery's handbook, tests have shown that more than 60% thread engagement provides no significant increase in strength. For thread engagements more than 1.5 diameters deep, 50% is usually sufficient assuming comparable materials in fastener and tapped material. Most tap drills are sized to cut a 70-75% thread. The 'H' number on the tap designates the oversize in 0.0005" increments to allow for shrinkage or plating. Tapmatic has a simple chart to figure out what percentage of thread to use.




And another for tapping torque vs the strength of the resulting thread.


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## lkrestorer (Nov 27, 2021)

L98fiero,
I have glanced at all the Machinery Handbook information on taps and threading until it fogs my glasses.  This is good basic information but my concern was for unusually odd sizes such as making a nut (with any random TPI) for this 1.249" shaft.  When I used the simple formula that danallen posted gave me a hole size of 1.199" and the more precise formula from Scott_M gave me 1.200 with using a 75% factor.  These formulas aren't needed for "normal" threads - just look at one of the tapping charts that everyone has. I'm not dismissing your post as it is good "school learnin' " and needs to be understood.

One other question that came to mind as soon as I read your "L98fiero":  Do you really have a Fiero with a Tuned Port engine stuck in it?  Wow!


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## L98fiero (Nov 27, 2021)

lkrestorer said:


> L98fiero,
> I have glanced at all the Machinery Handbook information on taps and threading until it fogs my glasses.  This is good basic information but my concern was for unusually odd sizes such as making a nut (with any random TPI) for this 1.249" shaft.  When I used the simple formula that danallen posted gave me a hole size of 1.199" and the more precise formula from Scott_M gave me 1.200 with using a 75% factor.  These formulas aren't needed for "normal" threads - just look at one of the tapping charts that everyone has. I'm not dismissing your post as it is good "school learnin' " and needs to be understood.
> 
> One other question that came to mind as soon as I read your "L98fiero":  Do you really have a Fiero with a Tuned Port engine stuck in it?  Wow!


Yes, ~325 hp. it's a lot of fun when I can keep transmissions in it.


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## lkrestorer (Nov 27, 2021)

I know this is the wrong place to discuss this but I'll make one more answering comment.

I caught that name because I own an NCRS Top Flight 1987 Corvette.


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## ytrose2 (Nov 28, 2021)

One reason why I love the Metric system. I used to work for a company who made rapid yielding hydraulic pit props for the mines. We had to screw the head casting onto the stainless barrel. There was no standard thread size for a 76mm barrel, so we created our own using the basic Metric concept. After a couple of trials, we finally found a thread pitch that gave us the right combination of coarseness and depth of thread that did the job for the application.


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## Richard Hed (Nov 28, 2021)

ytrose2 said:


> One reason why I love the Metric system. I used to work for a company who made rapid yielding hydraulic pit props for the mines. We had to screw the head casting onto the stainless barrel. There was no standard thread size for a 76mm barrel, so we created our own using the basic Metric concept. After a couple of trials, we finally found a thread pitch that gave us the right combination of coarseness and depth of thread that did the job for the application.


The same can be said for all other systems too, however.  We all know that the MS is far easier to use for just about any application (can't thimpfk of a single one that isn't).  When the imperial system was invented, it was the beginning of the system and no-one knew what was to be expected.  If someone had sat up and systematically designed the system, they should have designed it in 16ths of an inch.  Then instead of saying such things as 5/8, 7/16, 3/4, etc, the things would have been:  1, 2, 3, 4,  . ..  . 7, 8, 9, 10 . . ....etc in 16ths.  But no-one saw that far and instead invented two or three or more systems that went into a single system called "imperial".  too bad.  I still struggle with the pain in the  . . .. . over number, letter sized drills, taps, and all the crap.  once one gets above the number letter crap, the imperial system is much more like the metric but only in 16ths.  If we had a hexadecimal system of arithmetic, ov course, 16ths would be the way to go.  Then we would be complaining about metric, as if you halved 10, you come up with an odd number.  If you halve THAT, you come up with a decimal number.  But in Hexdecimal, you would not have that.  Much easier to deal with in that way.  Ounces, cup, pint, quart, gallon.


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## mcostello (Nov 28, 2021)

I struggle with Metric. (and computers.) It's just what a person is used to.


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## Richard Hed (Nov 28, 2021)

mcostello said:


> I struggle with Metric. (and computers.) It's just what a person is used to.


You just haven't had enough practice with it.  Really, it's very simple.  Thimpfk of it this way.  Alex Hamilton managed to get US $$ to use the decimal system.  Before, it used the British pound system which had a lb broken up into --come on my Brit friends, help me out--strange pieces including pennies which ARE NOT a cent.  Even the Brits finally adopted the decimal system for their $$.  How would you like to calculate your $$ in 20ths, 12ths and who knows what else?

Even WORSE were the Romans who used C, X, V, I, D, M for numbers and they way they put them together--to us a nitemare.


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## Henry K (Nov 29, 2021)

How did the Romans multiply Roman Numerals?


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## Richard Hed (Nov 29, 2021)

Henry K said:


> How did the Romans multiply Roman Numerals?


I wonder the same thing, and dividing would be even worse.  They were probably limitede in their mathematical inventions because of this.


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## awake (Nov 29, 2021)

Richard Hed said:


> We all know that the MS is far easier to use for just about any application (can't thimpfk of a single one that isn't).



I have no problem using the metric system, and routinely use metric dimensions, fasteners, bearings, etc. in many of my designs. That said, I can think of three places where the metric system is _not_ as intuitive or easy to use:

1) Metric threading is easy to calculate in the sense under discussion, i.e., what size tap drill is needed for a given thread. (Actually, I find no difficulty in calculating imperial threads, but I digress). However, from what I understand, metric threading is much harder to implement on a typical lathe - not necessarily because of the particular dimensions involved, but because of how the system is designed, using the distance between threads rather than the number of threads per unit. As I understand it, threads-per-unit makes it relatively easy to generate the gear box and thread dial ... distance between threads, not so much. (I confess to knowing only enough to be dangerous on this topic, so happy to be corrected ...)

2) A topic about which I know quite a bit: implementation in computer hardware. Because of the binary system used in the vast majority of computers both historical and present, multiplying and dividing by 2 is much, much easier than by 10. Likewise it is far easier to store fractions-of-two (i.e., n/2, n/4, n/8, n/16, etc.) than it is to store decimals (i.e., .1, .2, .3, etc.). Where 1/2 and 1/4 and 1/8 can be stored exactly, .1, .2, and .3 are all going to be stored as approximations - very good approximations when you can use double-precision floating point, but if you are limited to single-precision, say on a microcontroller, you may see errors creeping into your computations.

3) Related to the above: One might argue that in many use cases, humans also find it easier to divide by 2 than to divide by 10. Think about spacing out the screws that will fasten one piece of wood to another - it is trivial to set screws at divisions of 2 by eye, with surprising accuracy: Identify the middle point and place a screw; then identify the middle point of each resulting half and place another screw, and so on. But if one were asked to place the screws at intervals of 10 ... it would be very difficult to come up with something by eye that was not noticeably "off."



Henry K said:


> How did the Romans multiply Roman Numerals?



At one level, the same way that you and I do. When you multiply 6 x 7, does the answer depend in any way on the notation used? Or simply on the answer we memorized back in 3rd grade? And if you didn't memorize it, how would you work it out - wouldn't you add up 7, six times, and see what the result is? 6, 7, 42, and (7+7+7+7+7+7) are the same values regardless of the notation used, and the math works the same way.

To be sure, if we are only multiplying by 10, then our decimal notation becomes very easy to use. But if you have to multiply 482 x 397, I don't think the notation is helping or hindering all that much. Keep in mind that Archimedes and Pythagoras and other brilliant mathematicians used the same sort of notation system. (Ancient Greek used letters for its numeric notation, just like Latin - or rather the other way around, since Latin almost certainly adopted it from Greek, which adopted its system from Phonecian writing.) And don't think for a moment that ancient money lenders had any trouble calculating the amount of interest owed!

But there is one issue that was a major hindrance for the Phonecians, Greeks, and Romans: while they certainly knew what "nothing" meant, they did not have a way to notate a zero value. This - the ability to write 0 - was the huge advance made by the Arabs - which is why today we use "Arabic numbers."


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## Steamchick (Nov 30, 2021)

Nought is not worth nothing. 
Nought is the most incredible mathematical location, where numbers change state. 
It is unique in being neither positive, nor negative. 
Nothing can be divided by Nought, yet Nothing is all that exists of Nought. Nothing else can be divided by Nought.
Without it, modern mathematics could not exist, yet nought does not exist, it is the absence of anything. So when we ask about "what came before the Big Bang?", Nought existed, but nothing else existed. Ergo it is the point from which all creation (Certainly in Mathematics) is derived.
Or have I been on the happy juice again?
(Please don't ask me to explain this, it is the point where I failed to cope with mathematics!).
K2


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## Richard Hed (Nov 30, 2021)

Steamchick said:


> Nought is not worth nothing.
> Nought is the most incredible mathematical location, where numbers change state.
> It is unique in being neither positive, nor negative.
> Nothing can be divided by Nought, yet Nothing is all that exists of Nought. Nothing else can be divided by Nought.
> ...


You are not a knot but you are nought naughty.  However, your erudite analysis is still not correct:  Nought is a point on a number line, therefore it exists as a real number.  The number "null" is considered to be the object that is "non-existent".  This null is in EVERY set no matter what set it is.


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## Steamchick (Nov 30, 2021)

Thanks Richard. This explains why I failed Maths at Uni. "Despite my endeavours it all came to nought",
K2


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## Thread man (Jul 18, 2022)

Of course knowing the bore size for an internal thread is important but there's a bit more to it than that. All threads have a tolerance on the bore (minor) diameter on an internal thread. If you know the thread profile height then it's twice that height from the OD. As was pointed out in the second post it's easy for 60º threads.

Getting the pitch diameter correct (within tolerance) is the most important but a bore diameter above tolerance gives a weak thread that will probably strip.

On this link I give the nominal pitch diameter for common profile threads. To get the bore diameter subtract twice PDn.


			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/2%20nominal/2.03.1.pdf
		

and the same for inches


			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/2%20nominal/2.03.2%20-%20inch%20version.pdf
		


The PDF file covers several types of threads.

Probably easiest is just to ask someone that knows ☺ There seems to be several that are members.

To the first poster. There isn't as such a single formula. It depends on the thread profile.

Back to the original first post. Assuming a standard 60º thread with a 2B tolerance then for .800" x 32 TPI max .776" and min .774".


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## Nikhil Bhale (Jul 18, 2022)

The first recorded zero appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 B.C. The Mayans invented it independently circa 4 A.D. It was later devised in India in the mid-fifth century, spread to Cambodia near the end of the seventh century, and into China and the Islamic countries at the end of the eighth. Zero reached western Europe in the 12th century. Arab merchants brought the zero they found in India to the West. After many adventures and much opposition, the symbol we use was accepted and the concept flourished, as zero took on much more than a positional meaning. Since then, it has played avital role in mathematizing the world.

Above taken from Scientific American website.


Regards
Nikhil


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## Thread man (Jul 18, 2022)

mcostello said:


> I struggle with Metric. (and computers.) It's just what a person is used to.


I went from Scotland to Denmark (at the age of 22) and from inches (imperial) to metric. Took less than a week to get the hang of the metric system. I'm sure it would have taken much longer going the other way. Re the dislike so many have of the metric system then what do you do when you want to cut 1/8" on a machine. Dont ever remember ever seeing a machine with fractions. Back in those days I knew every 1/32" fraction in decimals.

Hmm how many cents in $1?

Sure 12 inches in 1 foot, 3 feet in 1 yard, 22 yards in 1 chain, 10 chains in a furlong and 8 furlongs in a mile.

1,000mm in a meter and 1,000 meters in a kilometer.

Within the industrial world then almost all dimensions are in mm, m and km.

Temperature. Water freezes at 0ºC and boils at 100ºC.  Yeps, metric is complicated LOL
A cubic meter of water weighs a metric ton.
How many lbs in a ton? Depends on whether you are in the USA or the UK. How much is a gallon? Same problem.

_Three countries in the world do not use the metric system as the official system of measurement: *the United States, Liberia, and Myanmar*. The United States' reluctance to fully adopt the metric system stems from when the British colonized the New World, bringing the Imperial System with them._

*The US is however going metric. Inch by inch.*

I think we're well away from the thread title.


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## Steamchick (Jul 19, 2022)

Ever seen Korean inches? 10 to the Imperial foot. They managed to Metricate by themselves, without "Imperial" rule..
The have 1 foot rules printed/engraved on both sides, "Imperial" inches one side and Korean inches on the other. Just talk to them and they are completely sure which unit when they discuss sizes. It is just "language". Not too difficult for anyone brought-up in multiple languages. Typically in India children learn 7 languages, then travel the country and use "English" as the universal language..
Our brains are all built the same (like Dell computers) but programmed with different software in different places.
K2


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## Steamchick (Jul 19, 2022)

Thread man said:


> Of course knowing the bore size for an internal thread is important but there's a bit more to it than that. All threads have a tolerance on the bore (minor) diameter on an internal thread. If you know the thread profile height then it's twice that height from the OD. As was pointed out in the second post it's easy for 60º threads.
> 
> Getting the pitch diameter correct (within tolerance) is the most important but a bore diameter above tolerance gives a weak thread that will probably strip.
> 
> ...



Well I had never given it that much thought! Just use thread tables from any one on my many inherited "Engineering" almanacs that are full of thread tables. Many came from my grandfathers, both of whom travelled the world by ship, and one visited USA a few times including after being sunk in mid-Atlantic... but that's for another day. His "USA" books are as good as any, except for modern and Japanese Metric standards.


			https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24702141-a-nice-quiet-life
		

K2


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## Thread man (Jul 19, 2022)

Nikhil Bhale said:


> The first recorded zero appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 B.C. The Mayans invented it independently circa 4 A.D. It was later devised in India in the mid-fifth century, spread to Cambodia near the end of the seventh century, and into China and the Islamic countries at the end of the eighth. Zero reached western Europe in the 12th century. Arab merchants brought the zero they found in India to the West. After many adventures and much opposition, the symbol we use was accepted and the concept flourished, as zero took on much more than a positional meaning. Since then, it has played avital role in mathematizing the world.
> 
> Above taken from Scientific American website.
> 
> ...


Mathematical question for you and hope you have humour. If I multiply your post with 0 what do I get out of it?


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## Thread man (Jul 19, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Ever seen Korean inches? 10 to the Imperial foot. They managed to Metricate by themselves, without "Imperial" rule..
> The have 1 foot rules printed/engraved on both sides, "Imperial" inches one side and Korean inches on the other. Just talk to them and they are completely sure which unit when they discuss sizes. It is just "language". Not too difficult for anyone brought-up in multiple languages. Typically in India children learn 7 languages, then travel the country and use "English" as the universal language..
> Our brains are all built the same (like Dell computers) but programmed with different software in different places.
> K2


No I've never seen a Korean inch ☺ Until a few years ago many European countries had different values for an inch. A ton, gallon and probably other "units" vary depending on where you are. First time I drove in Sweden seeing distance signs in MILS was confusing. Thought for a short while Swedes didn't know how to spell mile. What MIL means is 10 kilometers and due to the size of the country. Tip Norway over and it reaches Italy!

I've been in India several time and have never had the impression kids learn several languages. My (Danish) wife speaks, apart from Danish of course, English, German and French and has also learned a little Chinese. She's HR manager at Legoland here in Denmark. ½ an hour from where we live.


At 3 mins. 20 seconds British kids often get it wrong by driving on the left hand side LOL

Kids here learn English from the very first year at school.

*Do threads usually get so far away from the subject?*


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## Nikhil Bhale (Jul 19, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Typically in India children learn 7 languages, then travel the country and use "English" as the universal language..


I am from India and I think you erred a little  in this assumption.
I know 3 languages Marathi my mother tongue, Hindi the national language and English the universal language. I don't think I am offending anyone by saying English is universal language.
I can understand Gujarati but cannot speak. 
Some people take Sanskrit the ancient language in school and can understand it but it is not a everyday use language.
So I think the average will be around 3-4 languages including English.

Regards
Nikhil


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## Thread man (Jul 19, 2022)

Nikhil Bhale said:


> I am from India and I think you erred a little  in this assumption.
> I know 3 languages Marathi my mother tongue, Hindi the national language and English the universal language. I don't think I am offending anyone by saying English is universal language.
> I can understand Gujarati but cannot speak.
> Some people take Sanskrit the ancient language in school and can understand it but it is not a everyday use language.
> ...


Again a "Wow" as to how far we are from the thread title. ☺

The country I think that has most "official" languages is Switzerland. Depending on which part you live your every day language can be German, French or Italian. Most Swiss I've met are also excellent at English.

Oops, there's also Schweizerdeutsch which I think is more a dialect than a language.


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## Steamchick (Jul 19, 2022)

Thanks Nikhil Bhale. Whereabouts is Marathi the language? I worked with a few guys from different parts of India, who all told me they learned a lot of "Indian" languages, plus English. They were all lettered Engineers, so maybe they went to different schools? One guy spoke more than 10 languages (or perhaps some were variations? - he said he was learning French so he could talk with his French business contacts!), another 7 and I didn't make note of the rest, but one told me it was common for modern young "Indians" to learn at least five but usually more like 7... (Depending on where they settled?). Another guy spoke a lot and learned 2+ languages in Dubai when his wife got a very highly paid job there, so they moved there for 4 years. I use "Indian" as a very general phrase, for all my colleagues from the sub-continent (As big as the USA?), as one guy was from the far north in the Himalayas, another the South East, and others from all over. But really the common language seemed to be Cricket! - Especially when beating England! But I know very little about all the various people there, having never visited and travelled. Good to meet you though the wires!
K2


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## ajoeiam (Jul 19, 2022)

Thread man said:


> Again a "Wow" as to how far we are from the thread title. ☺
> 
> The country I think that has most "official" languages is Switzerland. Depending on which part you live your every day language can be German, French or Italian. Most Swiss I've met are also excellent at English.
> 
> Oops, there's also Schweizerdeutsch which I think is more a dialect than a language.


Sorry - - - there is a fourth official language in Switzerland - - - Romansh.

Use case there  - - - German 70%, French 20 ish %, Italian 10% and Romansh circa 1%.
That's the 'official' numbers.

Unofficially its sorta interesting when listening to a conversation where one guy starts in language 1 guy #2 responds in #2 then guy #1 moves to #3 and from then on its #2 and #3. When business is done - - - well - - - it was a no biggie !!

I've met a lot of educated (university not trades though) where 5 and 6 languages was considered sorta normal. 
It was common to have studied 2 besides your main use language before finishing high school. 
Here in North America its only the last 25 or so years where its considered sorta 'normal' to be able to even 'use' more than one language.


----------



## Thread man (Jul 19, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Thanks Nikhil Bhale. Whereabouts is Marathi the language? I worked with a few guys from different parts of India, who all told me they learned a lot of "Indian" languages, plus English. They were all lettered Engineers, so maybe they went to different schools? One guy spoke more than 10 languages (or perhaps some were variations? - he said he was learning French so he could talk with his French business contacts!), another 7 and I didn't make note of the rest, but one told me it was common for modern young "Indians" to learn at least five but usually more like 7... (Depending on where they settled?). Another guy spoke a lot and learned 2+ languages in Dubai when his wife got a very highly paid job there, so they moved there for 4 years. I use "Indian" as a very general phrase, for all my colleagues from the sub-continent (As big as the USA?), as one guy was from the far north in the Himalayas, another the South East, and others from all over. But really the common language seemed to be Cricket! - Especially when beating England! But I know very little about all the various people there, having never visited and travelled. Good to meet you though the wires!
> K2


I'm not saying that anyone isn't telling the truth but maybe a wee bit of exaggeration re number of languages. I speak and write fluent English and Danish so I am bilingual but I also understand a good bit of Norwegian and Swedish. I also know enough German to ask directions and order food.
I'm not in doubt some are fluent in several languages but but it isn't as proliferent in India as Nikhil Bhale seems to indicate. I've been to India several times, talked to many, and never met any that could speak multiple languages. Imagine someone from Glasgow (where i originally come from) talking to a Cockney LOL Dialects aren't to be confused with languages. I've been to the USA many times and never a problem being understood ☺ In fact the Scottish accent seems popular. Maybe Sean Connery??? LOL


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## Thread man (Jul 19, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Sorry - - - there is a fourth official language in Switzerland - - - Romansh.
> 
> Use case there  - - - German 70%, French 20 ish %, Italian 10% and Romansh circa 1%.
> That's the 'official' numbers.
> ...


You're right. I forgot Romansh. There is a large number of them in Switzerland.









						Romansh language - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Nikhil Bhale (Jul 19, 2022)

Hi 
Steamchick Marathi is language of state of Maharashtra. Mumbai/Bombay is capital of the state.
Threadman We usually have to take 3 languages in school. English, Hindi and state language. Some school offer other options too like Sanskrit, German, French, Spanish etc. 
You pick up more regional languages if you are into regional movies/TV shows.

Regards
Nikhil


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## Rocket Man (Jul 19, 2022)

What I have done in the past is pick a thread size to put on the tube then measure the depth of the finished threads.  If threads are .050" deep the hole diameter for the cap needs to be .050" x 2 = .100" smaller, you still need to add clearance about .003" to .005" for the cap.


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## Steamchick (Jul 20, 2022)

Thanks Nikhil. I enjoy learning about geography on these threads, as well as the Engineering.
Sorry to be so far off "thread" main subject, but maybe this s the simple answer to the original question?
"My Favorite Thread Calculator - Any thread you can dream up." - A reply on another thread, from Lloyd, back in March..
K2


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## Drawfiler (Jul 20, 2022)

I have recently visited two aerospace companies in the UK, both are building equipment used on commercial aircraft all over the World, both used imperial measures. Why is this, simply the thousand of an inch is a very useful unit, rough turn to .005, precision turn to .001, grind to .0001.
Turning to thread systems, Whitworth is ideal for cast iron, ME in 32 and 40 TPI are good for shallow threads particularly in scale model pipe fittings, 26 TPI is excellent for brass work and BSP is ideal for wrought iron pipe work and used everywhere, the threads are strong enough to withstand pressure in softer materials and the excessive use of muscle by plumbers, BA is logical and provides a standard range good for:modelling and instrument work, metric steps in these small sizes are too large.
just my two penny worth!


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## Steamchick (Jul 20, 2022)

I like that Drawfiler... I think you are saying it is like a chef with knives. Plenty of assorted favourites for various applications - but the Housewife may use only 2 knives, a short one and a long one.  Not perfect for every job, but she manages OK. (And saves her sharpest - her tongue - for correcting "him" when necessary...?)
Brought up on Imperial and having adapted to over 45 years of industry using Metric, I just pick an appropriate size and thread for the job. My own designed models & stuff usually contain more than 1 thread design... A cover plate could use BA or Metric, pipes BSP, small model parts ME, large structural stuff Whit, BSF or Metric (whatever I have in stock) but a Big-End would have whatever the available high-tensile studs or bolts come with. My pal has a worse problem with his 1960s Japanese motorcycles, as they are all JASO metric - which is different to European metric... But I have a 1970s Italian V50 Guzzi and local built modern Nissan so no probs there!
I have some NF taps and dies and a few odd fixings, but avoid those as difficult to source this (East) side of the Atlantic.
K2


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## ajoeiam (Jul 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> snip
> I have some NF taps and dies and a few odd fixings, but avoid those as difficult to source this (East) side of the Atlantic.
> K2


You should try get BSP stuff here!

Maybe we need to figure out ways in house, as it were, to ease these kind of difficulties for participants here - - - what say you.


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## Thread man (Jul 20, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> You should try get BSP stuff here!
> 
> Maybe we need to figure out ways in house, as it were, to ease these kind of difficulties for participants here - - - what say you.


The BSP denomination has long since been replaced by an ISO denomination.


			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/3%20pitch/3.5_iso/3.05.pdf
		



			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/3%20pitch/3.5_iso/3.06.19.pdf
		



			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/3%20pitch/3.5_iso/3.07.pdf
		



			https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/3%20pitch/3.5_iso/3.08.pdf
		


and more than most can use.




__





						Thread Manual - flexiblemeasuring.com
					





					flexiblemeasuring.com


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## Steamchick (Jul 20, 2022)

ajoeiam: Write to me - or set-up a separate thread for "Purchase/Loan/Exchange"??
A simple thing. Fred in USA wants a thingamajig, available in UK but cheaper bought in the UK. Harry buys it and sends to Fred. Fred covers Harry's costs. And vici-versa?
Drop me a line and I'll get a UK cost of whatever bits you think are cheaper here. No probs!
Only thing, you are "buying blind". We get so much Asian tooling that is the size, but is cheap, so doesn't have "US/British/German/Swedish etc." steel quality, tempering, etc. All sold by local firms in the UK, so we don't know what we are getting. "You pays ya money and takes the bits". Most of Europe has been flooded with cheap stuff, because local industry has been closed by "costs" and "Regulation". 
Sometimes Customs costs are the major item... so it needs research. I have considered getting stuff from USA via 3&@y, etc. , then found the US Postal shipping cost to be prohibitive - because the customs duty, fees & handling charges are big.
So "Check, Check, Check."... before you buy and ship?
K2


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## Steamchick (Jul 20, 2022)

These are my regular suppliers.





						Taps & Dies
					

Taps & Dies from Chronos, with Free UK delivery and great worldwide delivery rates. Chronos Engineering tools.Thousands of Threading Tools




					www.chronos.ltd.uk
				









						Model Engineering and engineering tools online from RDG Tools Ltd Home Page (Engineering Tools) Tel 01422 885069 /884605
					

BSP Taps and Dies



					www.rdgtools.co.uk
				






			TAPS & DIES (INC L/H THREAD) (All Taps & Dies sold separately)
		


Any use?
K2


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## L98fiero (Jul 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Ever seen Korean inches? 10 to the Imperial foot. They managed to Metricate by themselves, without "Imperial" rule..
> The have 1 foot rules printed/engraved on both sides, "Imperial" inches one side and Korean inches on the other. Just talk to them and they are completely sure which unit when they discuss sizes. It is just "language". Not too difficult for anyone brought-up in multiple languages. Typically in India children learn 7 languages, then travel the country and use "English" as the universal language..
> Our brains are all built the same (like Dell computers) but programmed with different software in different places.
> K2


Feet and tenths was common in surveying when I did it in 1970 though I suppose in Canada it's change to metric.


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## Thread man (Jul 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> ajoeiam: Write to me - or set-up a separate thread for "Purchase/Loan/Exchange"??
> A simple thing. Fred in USA wants a thingamajig, available in UK but cheaper bought in the UK. Harry buys it and sends to Fred. Fred covers Harry's costs. And vici-versa?
> Drop me a line and I'll get a UK cost of whatever bits you think are cheaper here. No probs!
> Only thing, you are "buying blind". We get so much Asian tooling that is the size, but is cheap, so doesn't have "US/British/German/Swedish etc." steel quality, tempering, etc. All sold by local firms in the UK, so we don't know what we are getting. "You pays ya money and takes the bits". Most of Europe has been flooded with cheap stuff, because local industry has been closed by "costs" and "Regulation".
> ...


What's "prohibitive"? Try sending anything to the USA and avoiding customs then chances are it'll just "disappear". Sending to another EU country is one of the few things I like about the EU. No trouble, no hassle and no paperwork. 

Sending by a recognized transport company makes life easier but it isn't cheap.  

Buying from China for no other reason than "cheap" and chances are you will get rubbish. Same applies to buying cheap from any country.

When buying from and selling to another country try taking a good look at the exchange rate. To me the USD $ goes up and down and I'm sure Americans think the same about my currency.





__





						Xe Currency Converter - Live Exchange Rates Today
					

Calculate live currency and foreign exchange rates with the free Xe Currency Converter. Convert between all major global currencies, precious metals, and crypto with this currency calculator and view the live mid-market rates.




					www.xe.com


----------



## Steamchick (Jul 20, 2022)

Hi Threadman. You raise a good couple of points there. I should have thought more about what I was writing. 
Yes of course I was talking of paying customs duty, as we should all do. (Like taxes). But there is a quirk. If something goes from country A to B, you pay one lot of customs. From A to C to B should be more customs duty. - But sometimes it is more, sometimes less.... I don't know why or how, but I have bought from the USA and paid less than direct from other sources, yet products didn't originate there. Probably the other thing you raise is the simple reason. Exchange rates. 
I once booked a holiday cruise and hotels in Hawaii, using a local tourist agency there, for 2/3rds the cost of purchasing from UK agencies. And when we got there found we had paid less than most others (Who all seemed proud to have paid more than others... as if the cost of the holiday naturally makes it better?). They thought I must be cheating, or doing some tax fiddle, or something? - But I figured it was just monetary exchange rates, as Mastercard allowed me to buy in dollars and pay in £ sterling? Of course, that bill didn't incur customs "Import duty" nor shipping costs. And Maybe the US Travel agent was on a different commission to the UK agencies? But I saved a whole £1500 on that part of the holiday, 15 years ago.
By "prohibitive", I meant that compared to total cost of buying "at home", the "cheaper" parts from USA would have cost me in total more than double, because of the US Postal and Customs charges. The US postal service quoted it as a charge to handle the payment to UK customs, even though the Customs payment for import duty to the UK was a tiny fraction of the value they were charging against "Customs duty and charges". Maybe it was a real cost they were covering, but because of this charge, I chose to not pay anything and buy parts already in the UK. ($25 for the part, 20% Import duty to UK, 6% duty to US Gov't, and a UK part at £50 worked out cheaper than the $58 charge by US Postal service for "Customs", on top of the $20 transport cost).
I hope that clarifies the "prohibitive" charges I experienced...
K2


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## davidyat (Jul 20, 2022)

*A very close friend of mine, Tom Gann, was a surveyor. He showed me a 12 inch ruler divided into tenths. I found it rather easy to use. Here's an Amazon ad for one:






						Amazon.com : Tenths Ruler, 12 Inch : Drafting Tools : Office Products
					

Amazon.com : Tenths Ruler, 12 Inch : Drafting Tools : Office Products



					www.amazon.com
				



*


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## Thread man (Jul 20, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Threadman. You raise a good couple of points there. I should have thought more about what I was writing.
> Yes of course I was talking of paying customs duty, as we should all do. (Like taxes). But there is a quirk. If something goes from country A to B, you pay one lot of customs. From A to C to B should be more customs duty. - But sometimes it is more, sometimes less.... I don't know why or how, but I have bought from the USA and paid less than direct from other sources, yet products didn't originate there. Probably the other thing you raise is the simple reason. Exchange rates.
> I once booked a holiday cruise and hotels in Hawaii, using a local tourist agency there, for 2/3rds the cost of purchasing from UK agencies. And when we got there found we had paid less than most others (Who all seemed proud to have paid more than others... as if the cost of the holiday naturally makes it better?). They thought I must be cheating, or doing some tax fiddle, or something? - But I figured it was just monetary exchange rates, as Mastercard allowed me to buy in dollars and pay in £ sterling? Of course, that bill didn't incur customs "Import duty" nor shipping costs. And Maybe the US Travel agent was on a different commission to the UK agencies? But I saved a whole £1500 on that part of the holiday, 15 years ago.
> By "prohibitive", I meant that compared to total cost of buying "at home", the "cheaper" parts from USA would have cost me in total more than double, because of the US Postal and Customs charges. The US postal service quoted it as a charge to handle the payment to UK customs, even though the Customs payment for import duty to the UK was a tiny fraction of the value they were charging against "Customs duty and charges". Maybe it was a real cost they were covering, but because of this charge, I chose to not pay anything and buy parts already in the UK. ($25 for the part, 20% Import duty to UK, 6% duty to US Gov't, and a UK part at £50 worked out cheaper than the $58 charge by US Postal service for "Customs", on top of the $20 transport cost).
> ...


_I hope that clarifies the "prohibitive" charges I experienced..._

Yes and no ☺ I knew a purchasing manager that was often praised for buying cheap. I never could understand that managemen never thought about how much he cost everybody else with extra inspection, assembly problems in production and customer complaints.

Buying "cheap" often costs more than people realise. The real issue is the total cost at the end of the day.  I'm not saying buy expensive  but more thought should be given to cost and time saved.

Many of my customers find fast delivery more important than the actual price. A stop in for example off shore oil costs a fortune.


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## ShopShoe (Jul 21, 2022)

Regarding Surveying.

My town is in a phase right now where they are trying to document everything. I talked to a surveyer who was working in my yard last year.

Everybody is using GPS now, so actual measurements are not what they used to be.

However, the guy in my yard gave me a long explanation of all the reasons why GPS doesn't work all the time (and he was a young guy, too.)

--ShopShoe


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## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

Thread man said:


> The BSP denomination has long since been replaced by an ISO denomination.
> 
> 
> https://flexiblemeasuring.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/support/manual/3%20pitch/3.5_iso/3.05.pdf
> ...



Interesting - - - - have you actually read the spec? 

The ISO refers to the previous - - - - that's the BSP spec. 
(That's the way specifications work - - - supposed little changes but always more visible effort (and thereby $$$$) by the boffins!)


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## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> ajoeiam: Write to me - or set-up a separate thread for "Purchase/Loan/Exchange"??
> A simple thing. Fred in USA wants a thingamajig, available in UK but cheaper bought in the UK. Harry buys it and sends to Fred. Fred covers Harry's costs. And vici-versa?
> Drop me a line and I'll get a UK cost of whatever bits you think are cheaper here. No probs!
> Only thing, you are "buying blind". We get so much Asian tooling that is the size, but is cheap, so doesn't have "US/British/German/Swedish etc." steel quality, tempering, etc. All sold by local firms in the UK, so we don't know what we are getting. "You pays ya money and takes the bits". Most of Europe has been flooded with cheap stuff, because local industry has been closed by "costs" and "Regulation".
> ...



Oh yes - - - ALL cost will be quite closely checked!!! 

Thanks for the willingness to be involved!!!


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## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

Thread man said:


> What's "prohibitive"? Try sending anything to the USA and avoiding customs then chances are it'll just "disappear". Sending to another EU country is one of the few things I like about the EU. No trouble, no hassle and no paperwork.
> 
> Sending by a recognized transport company makes life easier but it isn't cheap.
> 
> ...


No way of avoiding customs!!!!!!!!!

The EU is one of the few areas of the world where there is harmonized (well sort of - - - I can point out areas where it is NOT harmonized!!!) trade.

A recognized transport company will also mean your costs are at maximum (personal experience). 

There are some tricks to reducing costs but they tend to work better with larger quantities of stuff (pallet load quantities is where this kind of thing kicks in most of the time!). 

The exchange rates have always varied. Getting a decent exchange rate for moderate and larger amounts is easy. 
Its getting a decent rate for say under $300 (USD or CAN) is bloody difficult!!


----------



## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

ShopShoe said:


> Regarding Surveying.
> 
> My town is in a phase right now where they are trying to document everything. I talked to a surveyer who was working in my yard last year.
> 
> ...


Hand held or auto GPS works from 3 satellite connections. 
Surveyors IIRC need to have a 4 satellite connection (not as easy to have 4 in the reception area). 
IIRC for very high accuracy you need even more satellites to be connected - - - - ie RTK (used in farming) and now you can work to within one cm. 

Dunno what accuracy the surveyors used to be held to. 
Know that they used a theodolite where (again IIRC) accuracy was in the +/- 5 or maybe 10 seconds of arc range (bloody tough to do in a mechanical system!!!!) and using a 'chain' to measure - - - that's work dunno what kind of accuracy was considered normal. 
Would bet that today most all one needs to know is what buttons to push on the instrument!


----------



## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

Steamchick said:


> Hi Threadman. You raise a good couple of points there. I should have thought more about what I was writing.
> Yes of course I was talking of paying customs duty, as we should all do. (Like taxes). But there is a quirk. If something goes from country A to B, you pay one lot of customs. From A to C to B should be more customs duty. - But sometimes it is more, sometimes less.... I don't know why or how, but I have bought from the USA and paid less than direct from other sources, yet products didn't originate there. Probably the other thing you raise is the simple reason. Exchange rates.
> I once booked a holiday cruise and hotels in Hawaii, using a local tourist agency there, for 2/3rds the cost of purchasing from UK agencies. And when we got there found we had paid less than most others (Who all seemed proud to have paid more than others... as if the cost of the holiday naturally makes it better?). They thought I must be cheating, or doing some tax fiddle, or something? - But I figured it was just monetary exchange rates, as Mastercard allowed me to buy in dollars and pay in £ sterling? Of course, that bill didn't incur customs "Import duty" nor shipping costs. And Maybe the US Travel agent was on a different commission to the UK agencies? But I saved a whole £1500 on that part of the holiday, 15 years ago.
> By "prohibitive", I meant that compared to total cost of buying "at home", the "cheaper" parts from USA would have cost me in total more than double, because of the US Postal and Customs charges. The US postal service quoted it as a charge to handle the payment to UK customs, even though the Customs payment for import duty to the UK was a tiny fraction of the value they were charging against "Customs duty and charges". Maybe it was a real cost they were covering, but because of this charge, I chose to not pay anything and buy parts already in the UK. ($25 for the part, 20% Import duty to UK, 6% duty to US Gov't, and a UK part at £50 worked out cheaper than the $58 charge by US Postal service for "Customs", on top of the $20 transport cost).
> ...


I think what you're referring to would be items that (your A to C to B) have preferential rates between two bodies and so when A to B results in fees and even if B to C are no fees  with A to C incurring 'no fees' then  A to C is cheaper than any other combination. 

Its goofy and frustrating but these are some of the things that you have to keep on top of when you're importing. 

The lower limit, when fees start getting charged, also changes depends upon even your shipping company. 

DHL will always arrange for you to pay - - - that way they can levy their fee. 
Some shipping companies don't - - - but these are few and far between. 

So even with no fees and no added taxes - - - you can incur fees. 

(Ain't life grand for the rip off artists!!! (They are such imo anyway!!!))

Re: your holiday - - - I wouldn't count on similar today. 

I'm now having to pay sales taxes on even online product - - - - vis a vis Netflicks. 

I used to say that 99 cents out of every dollar was wasted by government. 
I now say that 105 cents out of every dollar IS wasted by government!!


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## ajoeiam (Jul 21, 2022)

Thread man said:


> _I hope that clarifies the "prohibitive" charges I experienced..._
> 
> Yes and no ☺ I knew a purchasing manager that was often praised for buying cheap. I never could understand that managemen never thought about how much he cost everybody else with extra inspection, assembly problems in production and customer complaints.
> 
> ...



My rule of thumb has been that if I only use the product occasionally (maybe 2 x per year or less) and those uses are not 'critical' then I buy on price. 
If I make my living using the tools - - - I'm buying quality. 

I will qualify - - - I bought a set of vernier micrometers 0 - 12 with standards. 
Also bought some used TESA mics (o-1, 1-2, and a 2-3) from a friend who quit machining (his company treated him very very poorly!!) 
I paid more for one of the used Tesa's than I did for the set. 
Both have their place though!


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## Thread man (Jul 21, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Interesting - - - - have you actually read the spec?
> 
> The ISO refers to the previous - - - - that's the BSP spec.
> (That's the way specifications work - - - supposed little changes but always more visible effort (and thereby $$$$) by the boffins!)


Have I read? I have the specs! I have what could best be described as a small library of thread standards and specifications. Considering what my company does it's as good as necessary. I supose the only difference between me and other "thread nuts" is that I stick to practical rather than theoretical.

It's so like other things in life. What should be simple get made complicated. A bumblebee must be pleased to know that it can't fly only applies to theory. I've seen internal pitch diameter measurement "solutions" thaat require both a bank loan and a laboratory!

*Is ISO and BSP thread the same?*
_
ISO metric machine threads should be used instead of pipe threads for mechanical fastenings such as bolts and nuts. *BSP (British Standard Pipe) threads, using the Whitworth thread form, have been adopted as the ISO standard for pipe threads, and will hereafter be called out as ISO and not as ESP*.

BSP threads are identified with letters each of which represents the type of thread and their associated standards1: *G: external and internal parallel (ISO 228, DIN 259) - BSPP*. *R: external taper (ISO 7, EN 10226, BS 21, JIS B 0203) - BSPT*. *Rp: Internal parallel (ISO 7-1, EN 10226) - BSPT*._


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## Steamchick (Jul 22, 2022)

I worked on a site where the Engineer with theodolite failed alignment of a column, because it was 3cm out of vertical at 10m high. The appropriate engineer worked out the size of shim to pack the base, slackened the bolts, fitted the shim and it was then within spec of "can't measure the error".  All columns were aligned, so the job went together. But my string on a bracket with plumb bob  didn't agree with "vertical" in gravity terms... Never did understand what I was doing wrong... Maybe my gravity alignment wasn't calibrated or something? Nut the building is still standing after 40 years so it's not too bad.
I wonder how accurately they align Radio masts a couple of hundred m high? Or the Burj Khalifa?
I also met a guy who was surveying using "original Chains". 22 yards long, with long rod links connected by 3 loops to the next,  and each link had an inch scale marked on it. They had a hole in the centre, so you could drop one hole on a nail, and make sure the chain was tensioned to get the accurate measurement to the next link after your measurement, then measure back to the appropriate inch mark.... (or something?). He said they were Victorian!
K2


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## Thread man (Jul 22, 2022)

_"But my string on a bracket with plumb bob didn't agree with "vertical" in gravity terms... Never did understand what I was doing wrong."_

*Possible explanation?*

The plumb line or vertical line of plumb-bob is influenced by wind force and it will lose its accuracy and precision. Small to moderate lateral movement of plumb-bob can be reduced satisfactorily by damping it in oil or water. If the height of structural member is large, then it is possible to replace the string with a long wire, but substantial cautions should be plasticized so as to avoid imposing risks to the personals working below.


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## Thread man (Jul 22, 2022)

Nikhil Bhale said:


> I am from India and I think you erred a little  in this assumption.
> I know 3 languages Marathi my mother tongue, Hindi the national language and English the universal language. I don't think I am offending anyone by saying English is universal language.
> I can understand Gujarati but cannot speak.
> Some people take Sanskrit the ancient language in school and can understand it but it is not a everyday use language.
> ...


I'm almost agreeing with you but re "average" and considering the population of India and the poverty, I very much doubt that as many as are suggested can speak several languages.

_"Two-thirds of people in India live in poverty: 68.8% of the Indian population lives on less than $2 a day. Over 30% even have less than $1.25 per day ."

List of languages by number of native speakers in India - Wikipedia_

India doees have many languages but how many Indians travel to get to use more than one? The times I've been in India I've met some that couldn't even speak English!


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## awake (Jul 22, 2022)

Poverty keeps people from learning languages?

On my one visit to southern India (Kerala), even in a fairly rural area, there were quite a few different languages spoken by people living just within that area - no need to travel any great distance! And from what I could tell travel by train is not prohibitively expensive. Slow, yes, but affordable.


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## Thread man (Jul 22, 2022)

awake said:


> Poverty keeps people from learning languages?
> 
> On my one visit to southern India (Kerala), even in a fairly rural area, there were quite a few different languages spoken by people living just within that area - no need to travel any great distance! And from what I could tell travel by train is not prohibitively expensive. Slow, yes, but affordable.


I wouldn't consider Kerela as being one of the poor parts of India. I don't doubt there were different languages spoken but how many of those you spoke to (assuming you spoke to some) could speak several languages? I'm also wondering how you even knew different laanguages were being spoken.

I've been, among other places in India in Mumbai. The difference from part to part was shocking. Those Indians I've met and talked to and found to be the most arrogant are the "middle class".


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## awake (Jul 22, 2022)

Thread man said:


> I wouldn't consider Kerela as being one of the poor parts of India. I don't doubt there were different languages spoken but how many of those you spoke to (assuming you spoke to some) could speak several languages? I'm also wondering how you even knew different laanguages were being spoken.
> 
> I've been, among other places in India in Mumbai. The difference from part to part was shocking. Those Indians I've met and talked to and found to be the most arrogant are the "middle class".



I spoke to many people, and often specifically asked about languages. I teach Greek among other things, so language is a particular interest of mine. The people I was talking to were seminary students and members of various churches. The seminary students came from many different places in India, so I suppose they had indeed traveled, though again, by train; for some of them coming from the north, it had taken them 2 weeks to get to the seminary in Kerala. I certainly did not ask them about their wealth, but there were indications that at least some of them were barely scraping by. And the church members included a wide range of people, some with relative wealth, but some who appeared to be daily laborers.

I'm not in a position to judge the relative wealth of different parts of India, and certainly claim no expertise on the country; I can only relate my own experience, as you are relating yours. I can also share my experience when I grew up in the Philippines; there it was common for many people to speak at least three languages. Any given barrio (village) would have a unified dialect, but the next village over might be a different dialect - slightly or greatly different, depending. Going into the main city to buy or sell would likely require learning a different dialect / language. And if you think the people in the barrios were middle class ... yeah, no.

Thread man, I am not comfortable with the direction this has gone. It is way off topic, and it feels less than respectful of some of the people who participate in this forum. If you feel the need to "correct" what I have said above, go for it ... I'll be glad to let you have the last word so that we can drop this and move on.


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## Thread man (Jul 22, 2022)

awake said:


> I spoke to many people, and often specifically asked about languages. I teach Greek among other things, so language is a particular interest of mine. The people I was talking to were seminary students and members of various churches. The seminary students came from many different places in India, so I suppose they had indeed traveled, though again, by train; for some of them coming from the north, it had taken them 2 weeks to get to the seminary in Kerala. I certainly did not ask them about their wealth, but there were indications that at least some of them were barely scraping by. And the church members included a wide range of people, some with relative wealth, but some who appeared to be daily laborers.
> 
> I'm not in a position to judge the relative wealth of different parts of India, and certainly claim no expertise on the country; I can only relate my own experience, as you are relating yours. I can also share my experience when I grew up in the Philippines; there it was common for many people to speak at least three languages. Any given barrio (village) would have a unified dialect, but the next village over might be a different dialect - slightly or greatly different, depending. Going into the main city to buy or sell would likely require learning a different dialect / language. And if you think the people in the barrios were middle class ... yeah, no.
> 
> Thread man, I am not comfortable with the direction this has gone. It is way off topic, and it feels less than respectful of some of the people who participate in this forum. If you feel the need to "correct" what I have said above, go for it ... I'll be glad to let you have the last word so that we can drop this and move on.


_"Thread man, I am not comfortable with the direction this has gone. It is way off topic, "_
Neither am I. I posted a while ago that I didn't understand why it was chosen by someone to write about India and languages and yet it just went from bad to worse and I admit to being part of that.  Your seminar students certainly are not "most Indians" as was claimed that most Indians spoke umpteen languages. I'd have no objection what so ever if every post about "languages" was deleted. It has NOTHING to do with what this website should be about.  Let's see if we can all shut up about languages LOL


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## nealeb (Jul 23, 2022)

ajoeiam said:


> Hand held or auto GPS works from 3 satellite connections.
> Surveyors IIRC need to have a 4 satellite connection (not as easy to have 4 in the reception area).
> IIRC for very high accuracy you need even more satellites to be connected - - - - ie RTK (used in farming) and now you can work to within one cm.


These days, it's very likely that you will have 6 or more satellites in view at a time and modern GPS processors will combine position data from all these to give a better result. Each satellite, in effect, just allows you to measure how far you are from it so with one satellite you know the size of the sphere you are on - its radius is your distance from the satellite. Two satellites and you can find the circle you are on because two spheres will intersect at a circle. And so on as you add more satellite data. The US GPS, the European Galileo, and the Russian Glonass will typically give 10m or so accuracy - it depends a bit on exactly where in the world you are, how many satellites are being used, and so on.

For more accuracy (and assuming that you are not a Government/military user who has access to the high-accuracy GPS signals which are considerably more better than the ones that the public can receive) then there are other ways to achieve it. For surveying over a known area, you can set up a "base station" which will take in as much satellite data as it can receive, and then average this over a period to get rid of the random errors that exist. Alternatively, it can be placed at a previously-surveyed postion. This can give pretty good accuracy, but if you pick it up and move it, then you have to wait for it to settle again.  So the surveyor then wanders around with his electronic surveying pole which is effectively a fairly simple GPS receiver on a stick (to give a known height above ground). The GPS receiver sends its position back to the base station, along with things like the angle of the pole (in case it is not quite vertical). The base station knows exactly where it is and also is receiving satellite signals with the same errors as the portable set so it can calculate the position error in the received signals and correct the data from the surveying pole (or poles - there may be a few of them operating at the same time) so that, effectively, the portable GPS receiver position is known to the same accuracy as the base station. Knowing pole length and angle, you can the find the exact position of the base of the pole. I assume that the agricultural systems (one pass to see where the weeds are, a second pass to spray with weedkiller to almost the individual plant level, for example) also use similar differential GPS

There is another variation (my old boat GPS used this - it's pretty commonly implemented) which uses a geostationary satellite which also "broadcasts" errors that the boat GPS could receive and use to correct the normal satellite signals. This is Satellite Differential GPS (SDGPS) and seems to be good for something like 1-2m accuracy.

When I first moved to this house, I needed a decent "map" of my back garden. The surveyor (working by himself, no assistant needed) set up a fancy electronic theodolite which used some kind of rotating laser sighting arrangement. His "pole" carried a reflector on it which could be seen and identified by the theodolite which could measure vertical and horizontal angle plus range, giving accurate positions for the pole which could then be plotted in 3 dimensions. What it did not give was an accurate location for my garden, but the relative position of all the points measured was good enough for all practical purposes and what I needed - don't need to know where I am to that level of accuracy!


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