# William Fairbairn 10 hp.



## Maryak (Aug 25, 2009)

Hi All,

I came across the attached pdf in an old (1850's) book in a museum library some time ago. I had forgotten all about it until I started a bit of a clean out at home and found it in a pile of my old work papers.

I have started to scale it down as a model steam engine and as time and progress permit my intention is to develop a set of plans for a build.

Best Regards
Bob  

View attachment FB10.pdf


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## hitandmissman (Aug 25, 2009)

Now that would make a nice looking model. Let us know how the scaling down goes. Thanks for posting this.


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## Krown Kustoms (Aug 25, 2009)

That is amazing how intricate things were made back then, now we have computers people arent as imaginative.
A .25 scale would be nice. 
I hope to see the plans when you are finished.
-B-


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## Jasonb (Aug 25, 2009)

Should build into a nice model though I think something like 1/12th scale 1" :ft would be better as it looks lik ethe flywheel scales out at around 10ft diameter, Unless you have a big lathe of course :

You can get a model of an almost identical engine, it's one of Anthony Mounts models and the build has beeen covered in Model Engineer

Jason


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## bearcar1 (Aug 25, 2009)

A beautiful specimen of the early engines used in the mid to late 1800's. Rather reminiscent of the Kendall Bros. "Williamson" engine that was offered up by Stuart several years ago. I like the idea of an outboard crankshaft support, it lends itself to a model that can perform some actual work by driving a pulley, or a gear as in that example. 

BC1
Jim


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## b.lindsey (Aug 25, 2009)

Bob,
That would make a nice lookingi engine. I don't see any dimensions on the drawings though or am i missing them. How will you know what scale it actually is? 

Bill


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## Jasonb (Aug 25, 2009)

There is a very faint scale on the bottom of the second page

Jason


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## b.lindsey (Aug 25, 2009)

Ah ok....wow that is faint on the computer at least. Just missed it the first time looking. Thanks Jason

Bill


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## Maryak (Jan 25, 2011)

Wow,

August 2009 :-[ :-[ :-[

Life got in the way and now I am inspired by my recent TurboCAD course so I have made a start.







Attached is a PDF of the Cylinder and I would appreciate a critique from any CAD gurus willing to pass on their expertise.

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB110_1.pdf


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## wareagle (Jan 25, 2011)

Bob, the plans look great! Interesting engine, BTW.

The only thing I would change/adjust if it were me is how the construction lines (not sure what they are called in TC) are displayed. The lines over the renderings seem to be a distraction. I am unfamiliar with TurboCAD; sorry to be of no help!


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## Maryak (Jan 25, 2011)

Casey,

I agree the construction lines should not be there. I asked that they not be printed but damn and blast they appeared anyway. 

I must have done something wrong.  :

Best Regards
Bob


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## Maryak (Jan 29, 2011)

OK,

Got rid of the construction lines.......... turn of the layer and they're gone.






I have just about 3D'd myself to destruction but I am impressed how great it is when you assemble things and the blunders hit you in the eye with bits too short or long or thin or fat. (Managed to make at least one boo boo on each axis). 

I have also learned a great deal about how to correct all these errors in 3D. It was very intimidating at first. 

In 2D delete a line or circle and problem solved. In 3D, slicing and adding/subtracting objects seems to fix things..............but I wonder.............is there a better way. ???

Attached is my latest offering for the cylinder. 

View attachment WFB10_C_CC_GF.pdf


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## Jasonb (Jan 30, 2011)

Nice bit of drawing, better than I could do.

One thing I did notice is that you have oval glands going into round bosses, it would be unlikely to have been made that way so either the bosses on the covers need shaping to match the glands or what was more likely is a round gland with three studs holding it down.

Also on the original section it looks like the cyl cover and the blad boss were separate items

J


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## Maryak (Jan 30, 2011)

Jason,

Thanks for the tips. :bow:

Which part do you mean - blad boss ???

Best Regards
Bob


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## Jasonb (Jan 30, 2011)

Thats a spelling error, should have been bosses.

If you look at the section just above the letter "L" the cylinder cover and valve gland boss there is a vertical line which suggests they are separate pieces of metal. May make construction easier.

e-mail sent.

J


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## steamer (Jan 30, 2011)

Don't forget your fillet radius on the inside corners of the cylinder flanges. The foudrymen would have insisted ;D


The first time I went 3D was a very frustrating experience as I "cut my teeth" on the drafting board and I came to realize that when I was thinking about design, I thought from "centerline out".

I found with 3D I needed to change my paradigm from that to the "outside in". This was a hugh stumbling block for me as I needed to reprogram the way I thought about a part. I succeeded eventually.  I find it very helpful to take pencil to paper and sketch what it is I want first as it only takes a few minutes, focuses the task, and seperates the conceptual stuff from the mechanics of telling the software what it is I want.  Makes for a less complicated thought process.

15 years later, I would never go back to 2D now...though I think about the boards occassionally with fond nostalgia.

You seem to be doing just fine Bob....I can assure you, I've "eaten the same dirt" and it's no fun doing it.

Dave


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## Maryak (Feb 1, 2011)

Dave,

Thanks for the support. :bow: The only thing I can fillet is fish ;D

OK, with help from Jason we progress a little more 

The assembly so far






Attached are the drawings and sub assemblies as a PDF.

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB10sofar.pdf


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## wareagle (Feb 1, 2011)

Bob, you are starting to scare me with the 3D CAD work!  ;D

Looking great!  :bow:


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## Maryak (Feb 3, 2011)

Casey and Jason

Thanks for the support :bow:

Jason provided me with a link which showed a variation on my engine using a parallel link motion instead of guides for the piston rod. One of the reasons for this was the difficulty of fitting the guides in a scale model. I am almost at the stage where this is going to be my problem with this engine. Rather than depart from my original 1850 plan, I am contemplating trying a split column design or a separate guide column inside the tapered Doric outer column.

Any suggestions advice etc. would be appreciated.

The devil is in the detail and my copies from the old book means the old devil is missing a lot of detail in this area.

My 1st attempt at the guides is attached

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB10sofar.pdf


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## Jasonb (Feb 3, 2011)

Will have a better look when I get in from work but did notice the holes in the top cyl cover don't match those in the cylinder. Glands look right now.

J


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## Maryak (Feb 3, 2011)

Jason and Pat,

Thanks for the input and support. :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## kustomkb (Feb 3, 2011)

Really nice renderings Bob! Thanks for sharing the drawings.


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## Maryak (Feb 10, 2011)

Kevin,

Thanks for stopping by and your support. :bow:

After a bit lot of thought and fiddling about I have opted for a 2 column design, The inner being a guide column and the outer being a Doric column to try and keep the character of the engine.







Best Regards
Bob


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## Maryak (Feb 11, 2011)

Attached PDF of where I am up to.

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB10sofar.pdf


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## Maryak (Jun 27, 2011)

Betcha all thought I'd given up ;D

I'm just slow :

A little more.

I had a difficult time getting the flywheel but finally figured it out using the revolve tool.






Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer (Jun 27, 2011)

I Like it Bob. What kind of valve gear is it going to have?  Just single eccentric?

Dave


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## b.lindsey (Jun 27, 2011)

It's coming along very nicely Bob. This is going to be a fine model indeed!!
Bill


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## Maryak (Jun 27, 2011)

Dave,

Single eccentric which drives a lever arm which in turn operates the valve rod. It's down the list because 1st I have to figure out how draw 3D bevel gears. 

Thanks for the input. :bow:

Bill,

Thanks for stopping by with your words of encouragement. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


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## Herbiev (Jun 27, 2011)

Hi Bob. 
      That is one hell of a neat machine. I will be following this build closely :bow:


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## SBWHART (Jun 27, 2011)

Thats a very intersting engine, I've bin on the look out for an unusual column engine.

I keep an eye on this one.

Stew


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## Maryak (Jun 28, 2011)

Herbie and Stew,

Thanks for stopping by. :bow: :bow: 

Stew I will post a set of plans when I finish but as I will not have built the engine I can't guarantee their accuracy.

Yes, after a very steep learning curve and a page file bigger than Ben Hur, I managed to draw a pair of bevel gears.  






Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer (Jun 28, 2011)

Way to go buddy!

Dave


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## Maryak (Jul 5, 2011)

Dave,

Thanks for the support. :bow:






Attached are a couple of PDF's showing where I am at.

Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB10Part1.pdf


View attachment WFB10Part2.pdf


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## Jasonb (Jul 5, 2011)

Thats comming on well Bob, do you think a 2:1 or higher gear ration would have been better as the slow revs of the crank don't usually throw the ball out enough. Though at our sizes the governors don't work too well anyway.

Jason


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## Maryak (Jul 5, 2011)

Jason,

Thanks for stopping by. :bow:

I honestly don't know what ratio would be appropriate for the governor. The balls will only be 1/4" spheres and a lot will depend on the spring and the friction inherent in the mechanism, which I imagine will be relatively high at these small sizes. A few pages of my shonky math combined with Tubal Cains book on spring design may show which way to go but I am happy to take all the advice I can get.

Currently it's drawn as shown at 1 : 1.

Best Regards
Bob


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## ozzie46 (Jul 5, 2011)

Looks like you are doing well with the 3d cad Bob and Happy Birthday to Galina.

  Ron


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## Captain Jerry (Jul 5, 2011)

Bob

That's a good looking engine and your CAD work is impressive. I can't wait for the construction to begin. There are lots of challenges to face and I am anxious to see your approach. 

Jerry


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## cfellows (Jul 5, 2011)

Guess I've been too busy in the shop and hadn't seen this thread. That's a nice looking steam engine. Should be a real interesting project. Your drawings are looking really good.

Chuck


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## Maryak (Jul 5, 2011)

Ron, Jerry, Chuck and Pat,

Thanks for your support and kind words. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

As a self taught "Cadist," (I like this word because it's a close relative of Sadist, which accurately describes the learning process :), I just hope that the drawings will be usable.

I still have my Hit and Miss to finish, (which has been going on and on and on), before I tackle this engine.

I must admit to enjoying the challenge of scaling this engine and trying to adapt it to the machinery I have available. It also gives me something to do, (in between honey do's), for the other 6 days of the week.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Maryak (Jul 10, 2011)

HELP

WFB Governor Calcs				

Size of Ball	6.3500mm		
Volume of Ball	0.1341cm3		
Wieght of Bronze	8.8000g/cm3		
Weight of ball	1.1798g		

Distance of ball from C/L	9.1948mm	=0.0092 radius - m
Assume 	100	rpm	             =0.0578 distance
L Velocity of Ball	0.0963m/s	         =0.0093 v2

Acceleration of Ball	0.3210m/s2		

Force of Ball	0.3787N-3		
	        0.013356932oz

Although there are 2 balls I have ignored 1 to allow for the resistance of the mechanism.		


Would some/several kind souls please check the above so I can make a suitable governor spring :-* :-* :-*

In fact if I am correct, ( or somewhere near :), I probably dont need any spring at all 

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer (Jul 10, 2011)

The rotational acceleration (centrifugal acceleration) is ( R omega squared.)


Omega ( W) should be in radians /second.

2 Pi N = 2 x 3.14159 X 100/60 = 10.47 rad/second for 100 rpm

R you have stated as 0.0578 m

Therefore

.0578 x (10.47) squared = 6.33 meters / second squared

1 g is 9.81 meters / second squared......so

6.33/9.81 = 0.645 g's from centrifugal force...don't forget that gravity is pulling down with 1 g...

Ya need more speed....or bigger balls Bob  ;D  (Sorry it was too easy)

Because of the speed factor, I would speed the governer up


Dave


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## Captain Jerry (Jul 10, 2011)

Puzzled? I can follow the math but I don't understand the result. What does .645g mean? Where is it measured and in what direction? How did you come to the value of R?  How does friction matter? If the gov is stable (not hunting) the linkage is not moving at the pivot points so there is no friction. It would seem to me that any friction at the pivots would only have a damping effect on the mechanism anyway. Any rotational friction would just add to the overall friction of the whole engine and not matter in the gov calculation.

I have not built a governor yet but plan to soon. The question that concerns me is how much force is required to move the throttle and over what distance. Without that info, how can you design a working gov?

A nice drawing with force vectors would be a great help. Can you point me to a source?

Jerry


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## kvom (Jul 10, 2011)

The calculation above just gives the horizontal acceleration as a fraction of gravity. F=MA will give the force (plugging in the mass of the balls). Then you need the geometry of the regulator to determine the force applied to the relief valve.


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## steamer (Jul 10, 2011)

Gerry,

"A nice drawing with force vectors would be a great help. Can you point me to a source?"


Yes it would be...but not at 6 in the morning.....maybe later this afternoon



"The calculation above just gives the horizontal acceleration as a fraction of gravity. F=MA will give the force (plugging in the mass of the balls). Then you need the geometry of the regulator to determine the force applied to the relief valve."

I used the units of g's as I can now multiply the weight by 0.64 and get the centripedal force directly....I cheated....and of course...mother earth is pulling down so to speak so a force vector will be required...but I don't know the geometry....unless Bob would like to share? :


Dave


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## Maryak (Jul 10, 2011)

steamer  said:
			
		

> ...but I don't know the geometry....unless Bob would like to share? :
> Dave



Thanks for the input guys :bow: :bow: :bow:

Below is the geometry. The travel is limited as much more and the balls would hit the column/flywheel 

As yet I have not designed the levers which will operate a choke in the steam line. :







Best Regards
Bob


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## kvom (Jul 11, 2011)

The drawing doesn't show the travel length, so I assume it's .25". With no motion, the separation of the ends of the links (20 degree equilateral triangle) is .998". With the bottom link raised .25" the end links are separated by .748 and form a 45.2 degree angle. This is close enough to 45 so that the horizontal and vertical vectors are the same, meaning the collar sees the same force as the balls, minus friction effects.


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## Captain Jerry (Jul 22, 2011)

Bob

A new member recently posted a thread about building a 1/4 HP Verticle Steam engine from plans found in a book from 1904 by Paul N Hasluck. The book is free from Google Books and is worth taking a look.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UU...onepage&q=Paul N. Hasluck metalworking&f=true

The book includes a number of projects. The vertical engine mentioned as well as a horizontal of similar size. Booth engines include detailed drawing of their governors and throttle valve linkage. On page 620 there is a very good section on setting and adjusting the governor to achieve the desired speed. 

The two governors described are very different, one with a vertical shaft and one with a horizontal shaft and the geometry of the arms is very different but the weight balls are 1" diameter and the target speed is in the range of 100 - 200 RPM.

Jerry


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## Maryak (Jul 23, 2011)

Gerry,

Thanks for the link. I am unable to browse the book because I am not resident in USA. Google book partners and various statutes preclude foreigners from freebies.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Herbiev (Jul 23, 2011)

Hi Bob. Pity about the free book thing. Just wondering if anyone in the US could email the book to people outside the US. If not I would be happy to pay for someone to put it on a disc and send it to Oz


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## Maryak (Jul 28, 2011)

Herbie,

That's life. :

After a little thought I have decided to leave the governor as is for the moment. I think it may give a clearer picture in operation.

Attached are pdf's of where I'm at.






Best Regards
Bob 

View attachment WFB10Part1.pdf


View attachment WFB10Part2.pdf


View attachment WFB10Part3.pdf


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## metalmad (Jul 28, 2011)

looking real good Bob
maybe I need one for my shelf :bow:


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## steamer (Jul 28, 2011)

Looks good Bob!...I assume the governer has the butterfly valve for throttling..

I'm getting real interersted in what's holding that outboard crank bearing..... ;D

Dave


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## Herbiev (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Bob. That outboard bearing has got me stumped too. Engine is looking great :bow:


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## Maryak (Jul 28, 2011)

steamer  said:
			
		

> Looks good Bob!...I assume the governer has the butterfly valve for throttling..
> 
> I'm getting real interersted in what's holding that outboard crank bearing..... ;D
> 
> Dave



Yes some sort of plate not quite sure which.



			
				Herbiev  said:
			
		

> Hi Bob. That outboard bearing has got me stumped too. Engine is looking great :bow:



Currently one could call it a floating bearing ;D It's floating about waiting for inspiration to remove the air from its' base and allow it to settle gently onto SOMETHING substantial.

Best Regards
Bob


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