# Two 'Wobbler's' for presents!



## Metal Mickey (Oct 26, 2008)

You may call me a cheapskate but whilst I was away from home I thought that a simple wobbler type engine would make a nice Christmas present. Since I was making one it would be just as easy to make two! 

The plans for this particular engine come from Model Engine Builder (issue 1) and are simple to make. I thought they would be nice to be seen running and I intend to try and run them using a regulated supply from air brush type cylinders hidden some way on a base (perhaps a brass cylinder?). Anyway a picture is better that a thousand of my words so below is the progress made so far.

1.  Some 'scrap' brass that will form the outside of the flywheels







2.  Aluminium for the inside of the flywheels





3.  Making the two flywheels as one piece....





4.  Marking out one of the pillars....





5.  Drilling both pillars at the same time is not much more effort than one........





More tomorrow......(I hope...)


----------



## Brass_Machine (Oct 26, 2008)

Nothing cheap about giving a homemade gift as a present. In fact, I am doing so myself. A small aquarium pump in the base may be enough to run it.

Eric


----------



## Tin Falcon (Oct 26, 2008)

Mickey you may be saving cash by making the engines as gifts but you are not being cheap. Several years ago things were a bit tight financially. I Had come across a pair of brass candlestick castings and spend Christmas eves day turning them on the lathe for the wife. She loves them. and I doubt one could find a much finer set of brass candle stick made in this day and age most commercial ones are cnc machines or cast then put together in pieces. 
Looks like someone will be getting a fine Christmas gift. 
Tin


----------



## dparker (Oct 26, 2008)

Hello All: This is a good subject, it makes people understand a little more what and why we play in our shops. I have made things for SWMBO mostly out of wood, but sometimes over the years fabricated a few things from metal to fix neighbors tools or toys. It is very satisfying to be able to help someone and for me more fun to have them there while doing simple projects for them. That way I can get their ideas and requirements along with some company. Received some good fresh Salmon in return a few times from the neighbor. In my neighborhood I know of only one other household within a 4 block radius that has a lathe ( building a couple of steam locomotives). I go over there and drool on the Bridgeport and Atlas Shaper when I see the garage open.
My Son and I built 4 oscillating engines from Rudy Kouhoupt plans (1969) in the mid 90's and gave 3 of them away as Christmas presents, to my Dad, Father in Law and a Uncle.




They were well received and I got Dad's back when he passed away 7 years back, makes it even more precious.
[youtube=425,350]RNHppO158b4[/youtube]
don


----------



## Maryak (Oct 27, 2008)

There's a little of each of us in every thing we make, model, boat, plane, cupboards etc. To give these to someone is to give that little bit of yourself, which is really special, to someone whom you must think is special or you wouldn't take the time and effort to do it. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## jack404 (Oct 27, 2008)

Like Bob said!

well done mate

cheers to you and yours

jack


----------



## wareagle (Oct 29, 2008)

Giving something like this is far from cheap! Yes, the materials may be free or very inexpensive, but the time and craftsmanship put into a gift such as this is well beyond what money an buy. I think it is a very generous gift.

I have two nephews that are getting to the age that they appreciate mechanical things. I have thought of building a pair of beam engines for them, and likely will build them something for Christmas 2009. Too many irons in the fire to pull it off this year.


----------



## Metal Mickey (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks for all the support saying I am not a cheapskate after all.....I suppose I haven't placed a lot of value in the work done so far.......a bye product of being a novice I suppose....

Well here are a few more photo's of progress to date.......

Here are the two cylinders machined and drilled, prior to 'tarting up'.....






Fixture made to secure flywheels for finishing......






Two flywheels part finished. Next task will be to drill holes at 60 deg (= 6) then their collars drilled, tapped and polished.






Main parts being trial fitting......






Hope to post a video of them running soon. They need to be finished so I can get back to the cams for team build 3, then the Fowler traction engine, before continuing with the refurbishment of the Myford ML7, then the workshop tools to be made (including a die holder for the MT2 tailstocks) before.......well you get the picture...........


----------



## Brass_Machine (Oct 29, 2008)

Thems some nice looking flywheels!

Eric


----------



## Metal Mickey (Oct 30, 2008)

Thanks Eric,

Only had an hour or so today and spent a frustrating time in setting up to mill the flywheel holes, but I will make that a separate post.....so here are a couple of additional photo's.......

Trying to decide on a pattern to cut.......





Part way through milling........





decided that this was the way to go though.......It hasn't been polished or finished yet but all machining is now done on the flywheel (well one at least!)..


----------



## Divided He ad (Oct 30, 2008)

I know I'm a bit late posting this Mike but... Cheap!!! You got to be kiddin... The man hours alone for a limited edition masterpiece of engineering.... The recipients should count them selves very lucky indeed... I know the recipients of the now 18 torches I have made have generally been very pleased with them.... Most haven't lost them yet! That's over a year!!! 

I would also like to say.... Nice flywheels. I like two tone, it makes the whole thing look like it was crafted with a lot of thought.
IMHO flywheel design should never be underestimated.


Nice work Mike, I look forward to the rest  


Ralph.


----------



## Metal Mickey (Oct 31, 2008)

Divided He ad  said:
			
		

> ........ I know the recipients of the now 18 torches I have made have generally been very pleased with them.... Most haven't lost them yet! That's over a year!!! ......
> 
> Ralph.



Your very kind Ralph. And you have raised my interest with your torches comment. I would like to know more as it sounds like a great idea! Is it something like a mag-lite torch? I would like to see one if you have any pictures.....

Mike


----------



## Metal Mickey (Oct 31, 2008)

Well today went well except for the time spent in the workshop.......here are a couple of photo's to show the progress so far...






and if you wanted to know the reason for microwave curries then here it is.........






more to follow.................


----------



## Divided He ad (Oct 31, 2008)

Hi Mike, in answer to the question... Erm no... The only thing related to a maglite us the fact they give off light! These are little monkeys for keyring use ;D


I went for a search and found one of the previous posts that was not really much bothered about ?! Oh well some people like them  
They are pretty simple but still take a couple of hours each 
(I do like to make sure they are pretty much perfect before I give them to anyone!) 

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=1640.msg12389#msg12389


Those curry trays look well used Mike!! 
I'm assuming you are just using them to keep the parts together and not planning on heating up the parts for lunch :big: 



Ralph.


----------



## J. Tranter (Oct 31, 2008)

How did you make the flywheels? Did you shrink fit them together or glue? Very good build.

Divided He ad I'm Still looking forward for those plans for those torches.

John T


----------



## wareagle (Oct 31, 2008)

MM, it is looking good! Following with much interrest!!


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 2, 2008)

*How did you make the flywheels? Did you shrink fit them together or glue?*

Hello John T, I had some aluminium that was just undersize but I also had some scrap brass picked up from my local scrapyard. Unbelievable they were very close with only about 5 thou needing to be removed from the aluminum. So I turned them down to a reasonable tight fit but cut some 1 thou deep groves and then glued them together.

Mike


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 2, 2008)

Well today I finished the manufacture stage (other than bases) as shown below. I also got one of them running and I will try and post a video.

The next stage will be to polish them up and finish the base. I will also be buying a couple of airbrush pressure containers so they can sit on their desks and be used. That is of course if the sir brush thingy works.....I will let you know.

They (or at least the one I have got running -the other is waiting for the crank to shaft glue to set) should work as the air pressure didn't seem to be excessive to run. I think with some sort of valve to control the air supply, that they should run quite slowly as well. 

Its a good design and thank Alan Marconett for his design......


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 2, 2008)

Well this is only a rough video, I will do a better one when they are both finished and as a pair......



[youtube=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YhTnZ2IzUJ0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YhTnZ2IzUJ0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 2, 2008)

Rough video presented well Mike ;D 

It sounds like it was ready to power a fighter!!!  

I look forward to seeing the finished product... Are you going for shiny? I like shiny ;D  :big: 




Ralph.


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 3, 2008)

Hello Ralph,

Yes I am going for shiny. I did try to do the whirly thingy (see photo below) but even though I tries different materials to make the swirls, I didn't see any thing I liked. It may be because they are so small an engine? I will have a go at the effect but not for these wobbler's.

I also finished the second engine to working stage and used it to trial the air supply that will allow the recipients to have the engines on their desks (if that is what they want!) and allow them to work. I don't know how long a cylinder of air will last but running the second engine it didn't seem to take a lot...and that should be even more efficient when the supply is correctly connected.

I spent the session sorting the second engine and giving a first polish up on the first engine (see photo below)

I have put a short video below of the second engine and you can see the control available (which I was pleased with) and there is a photo at the bottom after its first polish. There will be a final polish later. I was surprised at the efficiency of the small ultrasonic cleaner (photo below)and the amount of dirt that came from a relatively clean set of parts.

Finally I have decided on the base for the engines(photo below). I was hoping to have some sort of cover for the air cylinder but the only cylinders I could purchase in my area are very very long! SO I have changed my mind and they can store the cylinders wherever and bring them out when they want to see the little engines run.......

First the photo's...






















The base will come from the items in this photo. I hope to turn the mahogany to fit inside the brass, somewhat like a wheel (the wood) and a tyre (the brass). I will see how they turn out before making a final decision.






And finally the Video, remember it is only showing the variability of control from the air cylinder supply....

[youtube=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SKSQsIzS1-o&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SKSQsIzS1-o&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


----------



## CrewCab (Nov 3, 2008)

Mike, they are just great and whoever receives them should count themselves very lucky, how many people get "hand made" presents and dam fine one's to boot 

Tiny lil' things aren't they but they sure run well 8) ............ well done sir :bow:

as for the Mahogany in the Brass ring, the only problem I can foresee is the thermal movement of the mahogany , I'd be tempted to make sure the wood is very dry and a close fit in the Brass ring, if it absorbs moisture and expands a bit the ring will probably hold it, the other option of having it initially with a higher moisture content could probably allow it to work loose in an office environment 


just my 2c worth mind :

CC


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 3, 2008)

Looking good Mike, Mighty fine that there polishing job  

As CC said nice little runners too ;D 


The Engine turning is a bit of an interesting art form!!! The thing you appear to be using is a polishing mop... The items you may have seen elsewhere are abrasive rubber type polishers, they require wd40 derivative and a lot of cleaning inbetweem turnings... It really is an art form to get the patterns correct!

You can also use a pencil rubber (it works... Check out Bernd's wobblers) or apparently a wooden dowel and a but of grinding/lapping abrasive... I have not tried these ones but others have with pretty nice results ;D 

Looking forward to seeing the bases, a nice idea of the wood and brass... Just a thought to add to CC's... 

If you step the centre of the brass and then shape the outer of the wood to sit on an internal lip (I hope this makes sense... Crap o cad can be provided if required!!) The basic idea is that the engine bases wood could not slip out downward if there were any reduction in size due to drying... It wouldn't even need to be a big lip!

As CC Kinda said, just my 2pence worth  



Ralph.


----------



## ksouers (Nov 3, 2008)

Hey Mike,
That's a nice little runner! I can't believe how slow it'll run!

Great job.


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 4, 2008)

thanks for all the supportive comments and helpful ideas. Especially Ralph's and I have adopted that idea with the wood also 'resting' on the brass. Wood is such a messy job! I can make a mess with metal but wood, that's a whole new ballgame! I started a new thread about finish on the mahogany and was surprised at a super glue solution. I roughed out the shape of the wood with my jigsaw before trimming on my Proxxon bandsaw. Turning wood though messy is certainly fun and I am glad I wore a dust mask.....

Anyway the pictures tell a better story than I so here they are:-
















I needed to get some idea of the height of the base so put one of the wobbler's on to get an idea......






Don't take too much notice of the finish, its only a first polish.............

Divided head, I tried a few different materials including wood dowel and diamond past but I think I need a lot more practice and different sizes and patterns....I think that its an area I would like to investigate, but later. I think Bogstandard did a post on how to do this. I think my items are a little on the small side though..........


----------



## wareagle (Nov 4, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> Don't take too much notice of the finish, its only a first polish.............



You have got to be kidding! For a "first polish', I say it looks great! Whom ever is getting these gifts is truly getting a masterpiece! 
_PM me if you need my address._ :big: ;D


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 4, 2008)

Well I'm glad some of my ramblings made sense Mike ;D The ET is definately an art form! (Boggie's post is a very good place to start  )

Looking good too! 


I really think these will be very special when finished  



WE, nice try :big:



Ralph.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 6, 2008)

Those are going to be great gifts. I believe some that will be passed down in the family. Lucky people will be getting those.

Eric


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 9, 2008)

Ignore the finish on the wood bases (between coats of varnish and put on just to show the engines....) I am dissatisfied with the wood (another link re 'orrible stuff post) so I will make aluminum inserts for the engines to sit on and surrounded by the brass base rings.

However, other than the aluminium insert bases, the engines are now complete. Both run very well but I am a little confused and concerned with the propellant method. I have two very large airbrush propellant canisters and one of them works well. The other though doesn't!

At first I thought it was the engine that didn't perform as well but changing over engines and propellant found it was one canister that didn't produce enough pressure.

Using the workshop airline they work nicely with little pressure but I can't see a large compressor on their desks! I have thought about trying to make a pressure vessel myself but this seems fraught with problems and dangers, so I wondered about small compressors to blow up tyres or those to inflate air beds.......anyone with any ideas?

Anyway here is the latest picture:


----------



## mklotz (Nov 9, 2008)

Two thoughts...

Try an aquarium air pump. They're quiet and unobtrusive but may not supply enough volume for running at high speed.

I use an airbrush compressor for demonstrating a single engine. Very quiet and works a treat though it may be a bit large for your application.


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 9, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> ......anyone with any ideas?
> 
> ...



Try an aquarium pump. You can get them pretty cheap. 

Eric


----------



## rickharris (Nov 9, 2008)

They could try pressurising a soda bottle from a bike or foot pump - The 2 ltr bottles used for water rockets will easily hold 80 PSI+

If that is a bit mechanical for a desk job - a hidden electric motor for demo purposes only of course.


----------



## Tin Falcon (Nov 9, 2008)

anybody in your area tossing a dorm sizes refrigerator that and and old fire extinguisher bottle . Could be done but all the add ons get costly. 
Tin


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 10, 2008)

Well they are finished (subject to a final polish before packing up as gifts!). I made the right decision regarding the wood I am sure. The aluminum took far less time to make than trying to get the wood right! I am now certain that metal, and not wood is the medium for me!

Well here are a couple of pictures of making the base inserts and then the wobbler's themselves.....I didn't have any round bar left for the inserts so.......































Well they are nice runners that can run at really slow speeds. I just have to sort out a supply for them now.........


----------



## wareagle (Nov 10, 2008)

Who ever the recipients are for those little engines should be very thrilled! You have done an outstanding job on them both!! :bow: :bow:


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 10, 2008)

Those came out very nice. Definitely heirloom gifts!

Give a thought to an aquarium pump for the air supply. You can get them cheap and they work well on engines not requiring a lot of psi to run.

Eric


----------



## Divided He ad (Nov 10, 2008)

Mike, Definately One for each little work of art :bow: :bow: 

I know what you mean about wood.... It holds many mysterys for me too! Where as metal... Now, we can get some pretty nice shapes out of that ;D 


You'll have to tell us how the recipients faces looked when they've had their gifts too.


Always a pleasure to see nicely crafted barstock engines ;D 


Ralph.


----------



## dsquire (Nov 10, 2008)

Metal Mickey 

Definitely a pair of fine looking engines that you have there. I can't imagine anyone being disappointed receiving one of those to put on their desk. Job extremely well done.

cheers :bow:

Don


----------



## Maryak (Nov 11, 2008)

Perhaps MM should read Magnificent Mickey 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







They are indeed beautiful.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## rake60 (Nov 11, 2008)

You can't even classify _that_ as craftsmanship...

*It's ARTISTRY!*

Beautiful work Mickey! :bow:

Rick


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 11, 2008)

Well thank you for all your kind comments. I am going to try the air pump route for power. If it works it will be cheaper than buying the air canisters!

I will post a picture of them both running when I have the power source sorted..........but once again thanks for the supportive feedback, it means a lot when working alone.


----------



## DickDastardly40 (Nov 11, 2008)

Mike,

Engines look ace, bases too, even if not wood ;D

I have suggested this before as an idea but never actually tried it, a pressurised car inner tube could provide some motive power, want more pressure, sit on the tube. Recharge the tube from a cigarette lighter compressor which will also pump up your car tyres, which an aquarium pump wont! 

Just an idea!

Al


----------



## CrewCab (Nov 11, 2008)

Well I remember typing a reply but it seems to have gone "walkabout" : ........... Tel or Jack will probably find it under a bush somewhere in a few days time :wall:

Anyway Mike ......... nice work mate ;D ........... don't worry about the "wood" thing, you've plenty of time to get to grips with that stuff, it's not too hard really and can produce some good results, however the aluminium looks great ............. nice result, 2 very lucky folks this Christmas.

CC


----------



## Paolo (Nov 14, 2008)

Nice Pair....nice flywheels... :bow: :bow: :bow:
Cheers 
Paolo


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 15, 2008)

You are all too kind. I have bought (cheap) off ebay an aquarium pump but it doesn't have enough umph (just) so I am trying another more powerful type. I will let you know how I get on......


----------



## mklotz (Nov 15, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> You are all too kind. I have bought (cheap) off ebay an aquarium pump but it doesn't have enough umph (just) so I am trying another more powerful type. I will let you know how I get on......



Have you tried slacking off a bit on the springs to reduce the friction?


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 15, 2008)

Hello mklotz, yes I have. I 'tinkered' with them for quite a while and did get them running on less air form my compressor but I think I have gone as far as I can which did result in the wobbler's nearly running on the air pump. There is another pump by the same firm which puts out 3 times the volume of air but the price is more than what I would like to pay times 2 for pressy's. I am going to try a 12v car tyre pump which is £8 including postage so I will give that a try next. 

I will let you know how I get on and thanks once again for the interest.


----------



## NickG (Nov 15, 2008)

Mike, they are fantastic, I may just have to copy your idea and make one for my son! He's not even 3 yet but he is always wanting to play with an oscillator that I made!

How did you bling them? They look great!

I am also useless with wood by the way!

Nick


----------



## Metal Mickey (Nov 15, 2008)

Hello NickG, many thanks for your kind words. I use buffing wheels with the hard sticks or paste you get. I keep three wheels. One to put the polishing paste on, a second to take off and the third to polish up for the final polish. That's it really....

What is it with wood? Carpenters don't like metal, metal benders don't like wood, until mother nature pulls a person out who likes both, but that is in the minority....and not me....... :big:


----------



## ksouers (Nov 15, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> What is it with wood? Carpenters don't like metal, metal benders don't like wood, until mother nature pulls a person out who likes both, but that is in the minority....and not me....... :big:



I think, for me, it's when I get that 2x4 that has a little warp to it that makes me want to get out my fly cutter and flatten it out ;D


----------



## chuck foster (Nov 15, 2008)

my dad loves both wood and metal....................you should see his metal working lathe, it is covered with saw dust and the last wood working project he did has metal filings in the varnish  

but i guess when you are retired you just don't care............well not as much :

chuck


----------



## CrewCab (Nov 17, 2008)

chuck foster  said:
			
		

> but i guess when you are retired you just don't care............well not as much :



Chuck  ................. if I were you I'd duck 

CC


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 17, 2008)

Metal Mickey  said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> What is it with wood? Carpenters don't like metal, metal benders don't like wood, until mother nature pulls a person out who likes both, but that is in the minority....and not me....... :big:



I gotta say, I love working with wood as much as like metal. Unfortunately, I know more about metal than I do wood. OFC, I like working with composites as well... such as FG and CF. I love the look of a nice piece of wood and brass together.

Maybe there is something wrong with me... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Eric


----------



## jwsvandr (Nov 17, 2008)

I really like your project and especially the finish.




> What is it with wood? Carpenters don't like metal, metal benders don't like wood, until mother nature pulls a person out who likes both, but that is in the minority....and not me....... :big:



I have been building stuff since I was 12. Got to the point where I could build anything I wanted out of wood so had to start on metal. They both have their fun side but for now I am having a ball making swarf instead of sawdust. 

Speaking of retiring. I will be doing so in a 3 weeks. Lots of time to play in the shop then. Mind you the Honey-Do list has been changed to the "After you retire" list and seems to be getting very long and elaborate. Oh Well, she cant keep a close eye on me all the time.


----------



## Maryak (Nov 17, 2008)

Chuck,

The best thing about getting old, is you know it will happen to everyone else who lives that long 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Best Regards
Bob ;D


----------



## kustomkb (Nov 17, 2008)

The engines look great! Vid coming?

 I have tried running my 3 sisters engine with an aquarium pump. I adjusted everything to run as slow as possible with the A-C but it wouldnt go. Has anyone had any success? Those pumps have plenty of pressure to get air to depth, but not enough volume (cfm). I think.

 My Dad is a master wood turner and loves using his metal lathe to make tooling. I am glad to be skilled enough to help him out with the metal side of things after all he has given and done for me, :bow:


----------



## Brass_Machine (Nov 17, 2008)

kustomkb  said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> I have tried running my 3 sisters engine with an aquarium pump. I adjusted everything to run as slow as possible with the A-C but it wouldnt go. Has anyone had any success? Those pumps have plenty of pressure to get air to depth, but not enough volume (cfm). I think.
> ...



I actually got a small wobbler to run off of a aquarium pump.

Eric


----------



## kustomkb (Nov 17, 2008)

> I actually got a small wobbler to run off of a aquarium pump.



It has been done!! Now were going to have a build thread on souping up aquarium pumps!

-Kevin.


----------



## ksouers (Nov 17, 2008)

I haven't used one to pressurize anything, but about 10 years ago I used two cheapies from Wally World to make vacuum pumps for a fiberglass project. Got 11 inches of vacuum out of them and a decent finish on the fiberglass. I thought that was pretty good for $20 worth of cheap parts.


----------



## steamboatmodel (Nov 30, 2008)

Have you tried running them off a bicycle pump? It would give the recipriant something to do while watching the engine.
Regards,
Gerald


----------



## mklotz (Nov 30, 2008)

I've often fantasized about the possibility of building an engine that would run off an inflated party balloon as an attention getter for my middle school lectures as well as a means of showing the kids how the engine "consumes" air as it operates.

My miniature, breath-powered engine will run off a well-inflated balloon for a few seconds but it doesn't have the "impression factor" that I'm looking for.

Has anyone ever built an engine that will run off a party balloon for, say, thirty seconds?


----------



## rickharris (Nov 30, 2008)

not for long but my father used to demo a Mamod traction engine by putting a baloon over the boiler filler


----------



## stevehuckss396 (Nov 30, 2008)

Very nice job. I also built 2 of these same engines. Mine do not look as good as yours. Beautiful work. I made one full size and another in 1/4 scale.


----------



## shred (Nov 30, 2008)

I ran across a web site somewhere that said balloons are only at about 0.3 PSI (makes sense, we can hardly blow more than 1-2 psi). So, I'm guessing a very low-friction motor is the key. I wonder if the LTD Sterling-type motors could be adapted easily.


----------

