# Making a Simple Ceramic Burner



## Tony Bird (Mar 7, 2015)

Hi,

I had been asked if I thought a ceramic burner could replace a 3 wick meths burner in a fire tube boiler of an '0' gauge model locomotive.  Frankly I don't know, and still don't, as the enquirer will have to fit one of my 'Quick to make' ceramic burners to the model to find out.

These burners really are quick to make and require little machining however they can only be relatively small and to set sizes.  They use copper stop end pipe fittings as their body. In this case a 28 mm one.






A ceramic tile that is used on portable gas heaters.  These heaters use two types of ceramic tiles, one that is hard and cannot be cut, the other soft and can be.  There are several styles of these soft tiles mine was supplied by 'Blackgates Engineering' here in the UK.





The components; 28 mm stop end, a section of ceramic tile, a piece of 28 mm copper pipe, a piece of K&S brass tubing 1/4" OD and a No.3 gas jet.  The piece of wood is a plug for holding the stop end while machining and drilling it.





Both the stop end and pipe were cut to length using this technique.





The piece of pipe was hard  soldered inside the stop end to support the ceramic when it is in place.





The hole for the feed tube was drilled.  I find lubricated centre drills do this very well in annealed copper.  Slow rpm and a lubricant help.





The feed tube was hard soldered into the body.





To create the air hole, first a small hole was drilled in the annealed brass tube which was opened out using a broach. For a clear run for the air all burrs must be removed from these holes





Air hole.





Turning the jet to a slide fit into the feed tube.





A trial fit of the jet which has been Loctited to a copper pipe.





The ceramic tile is cut over size using a piercing saw.





Turning a shoulder on the ceramic tile.





Cutting the turned portion of the tile away.





With small burners I drill extra gas holes in the peaks of the ceramic tile not all the peaks are shown drilled.





Completed burner.





First test firing shows there isn't enough air.





The air holes have been made larger.





Just about right.





A confined space test which is how the burner will have to operate in the fire box of the model locomotive. 





Burner on the drawing of the fire box.  If it works but doesn't make enough steam a rectangular burner will have about a 50% greater heating area.








If there are any questions I will try and answer them, I have no training in gas technology, I have just read what others have done and copied them and if the burners didn't work I play with them and have had a certain amount of success.

Other odd ceramic burners I have made.














Regards Tony.


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## crueby (Mar 7, 2015)

Nice tutorial - thanks!

What are you using to supply these burners? Butane, propane?


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## Herbiev (Mar 7, 2015)

Great informative post. Many thanks for sharing


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## TorontoBuilder (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks for posting Tony! 

I'm in process of acquiring materials for my own boiler and burner project as we speak thanks in no small part to your posts on the subjects of burners and boilers. Your posts are invaluable, so please keep them coming!


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## dnalot (Mar 7, 2015)

Hi

I just completed a 3.5" burner just about like you have shown. I used the burner nozzle with mixer from a propane torch. I have not yet fully fired the boiler but I did mount it to the boiler to see if it would light and draft properly. 
worked great. 



Mark T


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## Tony Bird (Mar 8, 2015)

Hi,

*What are you using to supply these burners? Butane, propane.*

Mostly straight Butane but if it is cold a Butane/Propane mix. Both of which are available in the UK in disposable cans.  I don't think Propane is available in cans just heavy cylinders probably because of its much higher pressure.

Hi Mark,

*I just completed a 3.5" burner just about like you have shown. I used the burner nozzle with mixer from a propane torch. I have not yet fully fired the boiler but I did mount it to the boiler to see if it would light and draft properly.  Worked great. 
*

Your burner looks very well made and should produce a lot of heat.  I have not made one that large, I think 2.5" was the largest.

Regards Tony.


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## Blogwitch (Mar 8, 2015)

Hi Tony,
For many years, just after gas burner technology was starting to take off, I made a great many boilers with gas burners.

But it doesn't seem you have the same sorts of troubles we had, to get the sometimes weird shaped burners to glow all red across the whole surface of the ceramic and to have consistent height to all the blue burning gas tips. On the other hand, we were making some rather larger than yours gas burners, sometimes as much as 3" to 4" diameter or up to 6" x 3" oblong.
If anyone does come across this phenomonon when making your gas burner, I would suggest to put something inside the burner, say a bit of angle brass standing up on it's edge with the pointy bit facing the inlet tube, or even a small bit of brass rod or tube silver soldered onto the inside bottom, just where the gas is fired into the chamber under the ceramic, somewhere between 5 and 10mm in from the end of the inlet tube. I used to leave the ceramic loose until after trials, and play about with the position of this diffuser until you get a nice spread across the burner surface. Then gently take out the ceramic material and mark up where the diffuser should go. Then just silver solder it into position.

We all found that square or long oblong shaped burners required this type of gas diffuser to mix it up a bit before going up into the ceramic. We also used sometimes these upstands to support the ceramic from underneath, by putting a couple of diffusers in there.

Hope that this will assist someone to overcome a maybe problem.

John


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## RonGinger (Mar 8, 2015)

Has anyone found a US source for these ceramic elements? I dont  know of any device here that uses them and I have never seen them in stores. I have a boiler  underway for a steam boat model that really needs a bigger burner.


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## gus (Mar 8, 2015)

Hi Tony,

Thanks for showing us. Won't be long when I switch back to steam boilers and engines. Tubal Cain has a very challenging Steam Engine Plant to build.The '' Wencelas''. I stayed away because of the meth burners which just won't raise steam fast enough. Paraffin Wax has the powe but too sooty and dirty and expensive.Meanwhile I am badly adddicted to Gas Engine building.


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## TorontoBuilder (Mar 8, 2015)

RonGinger said:


> Has anyone found a US source for these ceramic elements? I dont  know of any device here that uses them and I have never seen them in stores. I have a boiler  underway for a steam boat model that really needs a bigger burner.



Jewelry supply houses have them, or rather acceptable alternatives to a specially made ceramic burner. Many shapes and configurations to choose from:

http://www.esslinger.com/mini-honeycomb-soldering-trays.aspx

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Ceramic-Honeycomb-Block/502005?Pos=8


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## dnalot (Mar 8, 2015)

> Has anyone found a US source for these ceramic elements? I dont know of any device here that uses them and I have never seen them in stores. I have a boiler underway for a steam boat model that really needs a bigger burner




Yes, Amazon.com  and they are cheap.

http://www.amazon.com/Honeycomb-Design-Ceramic-Soldering-54-1784/dp/B00K2V2DHA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1425823485&sr=8-8&keywords=ceramic+soldering+block

Mark T


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## crueby (Mar 8, 2015)

dnalot said:


> Yes, Amazon.com  and they are cheap.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Honeycomb-Design-Ceramic-Soldering-54-1784/dp/B00K2V2DHA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1425823485&sr=8-8&keywords=ceramic+soldering+block
> 
> Mark T



In his original post, Tony mentioned that there are two versions, one too hard to cut, one softer. How do you tell the difference when looking at these soldering boards? Have you used these particular ones to know?
Thanks,
Chris


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## RonGinger (Mar 8, 2015)

I have a couple pieces of the soldering block, and they are hard ceramic. I dont think they can be cut. Its the soft stuff Id like to find.


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## dnalot (Mar 8, 2015)

> I have a couple pieces of the soldering block, and they are hard ceramic. I dont think they can be cut. Its the soft stuff Id like to find.



Hi

The perforated blocks on Amazon.com were soft and I cut them on my wood ban saw. I bought the 3.5" x 5" x .5"  blocks for $3.50 each a few months back. 

Mark T


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## Blogwitch (Mar 8, 2015)

The correct ceramic material should be so soft that you can dig into it with your fingernail, and has a weight that is not far removed from that of expanded polystyrene packing.
Also, to get the correct infra red glow, which is the main heating part, the surface must be like little pyramids or domes sticking up from the surface.
The gas starting to burn at the top of the through holes is in fact lower than the tops of the small pyramids and continues to burn just above the tops of the protrusions, and it is this very close proximity of the burning gas that causes the surface to glow bright red and give off a lot of infra red heat. In fact, if too much gas is applied, the jets start to burn further away from the surface and it actually becomes less efficient.
The 'blocks' are in fact the front heating elements from 'Calor' type portable heaters that use a medium sized rechargeable gas bottle, and in the UK, you can buy these heaters fairly cheaply second hand, and you can usually get 3 of these plates out of each one. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORTABLE-BUTANE-GAS-HEATER-WITH-EMPTY-CALOR-GAS-CYLINDER-/191525189916

But you must be careful, as some have the harder face plates, and they are of no use, it must be the type with little pyramids. With the one shown here, you could use the empty bottle for making a gas furnace for melting metal if you are that way inclined.

Hope this helps.

John


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## Rickl (Sep 16, 2015)

That's excellent.  Just what I need for my SAR 500 4-8-2 (Gauge 1).

Thank you

Rick


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## doubletop (Sep 25, 2015)

If you are thinking about making one of these for a loco, or any other partially enclosed burner space, this thread may be of some interest. It's an empirical investigation into getting a working ceramic burner. The result is much the same as arrived at in this thread but has a number of links to useful info.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=10137


If you want a supplier who will send their products around the world try Polly model Engineering in the UK

http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk

That's who I got my ceramic sheet from

Pete


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## Juthi Halder (Mar 21, 2019)

How do I make ceramic tile or buy. I am from bangladesh.. can any one help me out


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## Tony Bird (Mar 21, 2019)

Hi Juthi,

How do I make ceramic tile or buy. I am from Bangladesh.. can any one help me out

In the UK it is available from model engineering companies such as Polly.  www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk
Which might not be a lot of use to you however the ceramic tiles are used in heaters such as is attached. There are two types of tiles used: a hard and a soft, you need the soft which can be cut.  I hope this helps you.

Regards Tony.


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## KellisRJ (Mar 21, 2019)

The small cans of fuel can often still be found at a camping gear supplier. In the US it's illegal to transport refilled canisters under Department of Transportation regulations. "Transport," not refill. So for home use you can refill them.


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## KellisRJ (Mar 21, 2019)

Juthi Halder said:


> How do I make ceramic tile or buy. I am from bangladesh.. can any one help me out


I purchased one mail-order sold as a place to solder jewelry. You could also try a lightweight fire brick, they can be cut with a hand-saw and drilled. Water soak it first to prevent dust. You will have to let it air dry or bake it at a low temp to remove the water before you can use it!


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## Steamchick (Apr 28, 2020)

Hi all, an interesting thread. I made my first ceramic burner in the 1990s for my father's 3" horizontal bench boiler, with a second- hand plaque from a scrapped gas fire. Still good, I used it earlier this week for an hour. I have made many burners and have been tying to find some real engineering information on jet sizes, air hole sizes, mixer tube sizes, diffuser designs and sizes, burner hole CSA, and finally burner power. Sadly, almost nothing! So I have been trying to collate information and develop something. I use a design of "calculated" diffuser, and seem to be getting it right almost every time now. But it isn't finalised yet. It really needs someone with gas-flow software to optimise on a computer. The turbulence in a burner cavity is at a very low pressure, with a very rapid exchange of momentum to pressure of the mixed gas, and the turbulence causes the varying colours of red to be seen on burner surfaces. When introduced into a confined space of a firebox, the pressures change and the whole thing is affected. So far my smallest burner is about 2sq.cm., and the largest 7 1/2 x 5 inches. (Sorry to mix dimensions, but I was brought-up "bi-dimensional"!).
Any actual engineering calculations or links will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Steamchick


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## Tony Bird (Apr 28, 2020)

Hi,

Sorry I have no knowledge of gas dynamics I just play with a reasonable amount of success.

Take care stay safe.

Tony.


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## TSutrina (Apr 28, 2020)

FreeCAD,  yes zero cost,  is a design software where you can model the burner.  It has a work bench that allows you to do finite element.  I have not used it but part of that work bench is a fluid flow analysis.   I do not know if in includes burning where temperature and gas properties change.  I suspect it doesn't.


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## BobsModels (Apr 28, 2020)

I built one of these for my 2" Rider Ericsson Hot Air Engine.   Its about .75" OD and been working real well for the last 5 years, uses a flat fairly hard flat surface ceramic that I had been using for silver brazing.  I just used a hole saw to cut it out.   I use propane at about 1 to 1.5 psi.   I basically redesigned it from drawings by Sandy Campbell.

I attached  a set of drawings for it in PDF.

Bob

Rider Ericsson Burner Only.pdf


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## doubletop (Apr 29, 2020)

Steamchick said:


> I have made many burners and have been tying to find some real engineering information on jet sizes, air hole sizes, mixer tube sizes, diffuser designs and sizes, burner hole CSA, and finally burner power.
> Thanks,
> Steamchick



Its been a while for me and had to re-research dead links but try these as a start


http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/lowp_chrt.html

http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/highp_chart.html 

Computational studies of fuel and air mixing characteristics of a low pressure domestic gas appliance   - Universiti Teknologi Malaysia Institutional Repository

Pete


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## Steamchick (Apr 29, 2020)

Brilliant! I'll study this lot and see how it marries with previous knowledge. A par from around  2000 from St, Marys college in Llondon, and a US Dept of commerce paper from 19220 gave some clues but mot he whole dtory. Big gaps, and things that don't  work , plague this bit of knowledge . Probably why  so many people "play  about and make something work", but do do any real Engineering... 
I feel that while many copy existing designs, there is the "real Engineering" where something is designed and works well first-time, and I haven't yet found the Engineer who has this knowledge. Hopefully that is Pete?


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## Steamchick (Apr 29, 2020)

Sorry for typos.  For "do do" read "don't   do".  Spell checker doesn"t like my grammar.


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## rickhann (Apr 29, 2020)

This may help.  jresv8n6p669_A2b.pdf   An old research paper, but some good info.
Rick


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## rickhann (Apr 29, 2020)

Here is another research paper.   nbstechnologicpaperT193.pdf
I used information from both of these papers (see previous post)  to develop my ceramic burner for my Rob Roy.  I took basic principles i.e. burner throat area ratios, distance from jet to throat, throat to burner distance, taper of burner tube, recommended port areas per BTU.  I knew how many BTU's were needed and worked backwards to come up with the basic dimensions.   Because of limited space, I could not follow the recommended ratios and dimensions exactly, but tried to get the as close as space allowed.  It took me a couple years, but I ended up with a propane ceramic burner that provided more than enough heat to run my Rob Roy.  If interested, I have a video on u-tube.  Rick's Rob Roy


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## Steamchick (Apr 29, 2020)

Thanks  Rick. Yes, I have studied this paper. It's  not all "outdated" as these gas rings with injectors (I would call them venturis) throat lengths etc. work pretty well. But I still find every configuration  and size of burner I make deviates - and in different ways! Most confusing!
Thanks for the link anyway. I'd  like to see the Rob Roy and burner.


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## doubletop (Apr 29, 2020)

My thread on my work on my Rob Roy burner https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/ceramic-gas-burners-on-locos.10137/

Expert, I'm afraid not. Like you I employed an emprical approach and then realised there should be some engineering/science behind all this so went looking for information.

Pete


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## rickhann (Apr 29, 2020)

Steamchick said:


> Thanks  Rick. Yes, I have studied this paper. It's  not all "outdated" as these gas rings with injectors (I would call them venturis) throat lengths etc. work pretty well. But I still find every configuration  and size of burner I make deviates - and in different ways! Most confusing!
> Thanks for the link anyway. I'd  like to see the Rob Roy and burner.



The first picture is of a burner I made that gave me hope of success.  My previous attempts only had one venturi tube.  As you can see, this burner has two.  I actually had a successful run with this burner, but when I got home and looked, I realized I had to make it more heat resistant.  Even though the burner destroyed itself, it put out plenty of BTU's (Estimated output north of 16,000 BTU's) .The 2nd and 3rd pictures are of a stainless steel burner box.  As for the use of two burner tubes, I did some rudimentary calculations and found that the ceramic element had enough capacity to provide the required BTU output, however the single venturi tube would not provide enough gas, therefore I added the second venturi tube.  I gleaned from another source that once the velocity of the gas through the jet reaches the speed of sound, increasing the pressure will not increase output.  I did a rough calculation and found that my single venturi would would only provide around 12,000 BTU's.  This will run the Rob Roy, but only marginally.  As an aside, I relied heavily on the work doubletop had previously done.   You can see a video of my engine running by going to u-tube and entering Rick's Rob Roy


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## doubletop (Apr 30, 2020)

Rick

I had a look at your video, Impressive and, as you say more than enough steam produced. I had come to the conclusion I was producing about 12000BTU's so it would seem we are both in the same ball park with our calculations.

Regards

Pete


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## Steamchick (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks Pete. I have done some crude calcs and realise the bigger mixer tubes allow bigger jets. Simple as that. I think that basically it is easy to over-fuel a small mixer tube, so without enough air, the combustion is poor and not complete. With balanced chambers and connection areas, max fuel gas gets the correct air and max heat results. But this can burn-out ceramics. I want a thermometer, as a Chinese special says 1200 degrees C max. I have had ceramics white hot! But they cracking and fall apart upon cooling, or flask back. Too much fuel an air. Keep up the good work. Your info is helpful.


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## Steamchick (Apr 30, 2020)

Should read "Chinese specification" - but google re-writes half of my typed words. Wonderful technology? Not if you are literate!


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## Steamchick (Apr 30, 2020)

PETE: is that 12000 BTU/hour? What do you reckon that is in wattage? I have a conversion 1 kW = 34121 BTU/hr. But I am not sure? Maybe there is a decimal point missing?


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## BWMSBLDR1 (May 1, 2020)

Drop the trailing 1 and you are there!   Bill in Boulder CO USA


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## Steamchick (May 1, 2020)

Thanks, It did seem that I was using a factor 10 times to big. But the conversion on the Internet put me right and agrees with you.  (I think I must have copied the factor I previously researched using my "random hand" - it doesn't always write properly! - Always blame the tools - the brain is perfect, isn't  it?).


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## smittman (May 2, 2020)

Keith Appleton has slot of help videos on you tube this one deals with setting up ceramic burners and self destruction it might help looking at.


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## Steamchick (May 3, 2020)

Thanks, I have written to Keith as I disagree with some of his details within the "training videos": Ceramic plaque manufacturers state the operating temperature of the ceramic to be between 1000 and 1200 degrees C - with failure at/over 1300degrees C. I.E. Red to orange - but not yellow to white heat. Keith proposes to keep the burners "black". This is contrary to the various designs of "radiant" heaters. Also, his flames have a balloon of CO burning above the burner - which suggests that the CO combustion is too cold and insufficient air available so is burning in the free air above the burner. This combustion will develop free CO into the atmosphere as the boundary layer of flame is cooling to the point where the CO combustion stops (around 330 degrees C.?). Ceramic burners are designed to keep the temperature of combustion much higher so all the CO is burnt very close to the surface of the plaque - hence they call them "clean burners". In modern countries there are laws that the manufacturers must adhere to in order to sell their products which includes "no free CO". Keith does demonstrate how the incorrect jet will cause these problems - if he used a no 8 jet instead ofa no 12 jet in one burner he would have a better burner. Sorry to spout, this is something that has upset me. Keith is doing a good job - but the inaccuracies spoil his training videos. - Partly the reason I am on a crusade to get a meaningful design basis that all the amateurs can use to make good burners.


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