# Chuck run out



## Kpar (Aug 29, 2017)

Hi all, I have a Sieg SX2.3 Mill and just learning how to.
I put the supplied 1-16mm-JT6 Drill chuck in and was surprised at the run out with a 4" test bar (home made in a lathe). What would be an acceptable error ?.
The mill is new and I contacted the supplier for some help.
They came back with this comment. *"The general runout of the drill chuck alone is 0.08mm. However, considering the runout of the spindle which should be under 0.015 and the drill chuck arbor, the actual runout can be more than that. A test bar should be certified by the manufacturer as the runout of the test bar should be under 0.005 and some test bar runout is around 0.0015mm. If you use lathe machined bar stock, the runout will be more than the standard of a test bar.
*
I can tell you it's a lot more than what they quote.
Anyone else had this issue ?.


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## ShopShoe (Aug 29, 2017)

Did you measure the runout with the test bar in the chuck, or of the bare spindle?

I have found that the drill chucks furnished with the Sieg machines leave a lot to be desired and with both my Mini-Lathe and my X3 Mill one of the first things I upgraded, both chuck and chuck mounting arbor. That is one of my tooling recommendations for anyone asking about getting started.

If it's in the spindle, it's a different matter.

--ShopShoe


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## Kpar (Aug 29, 2017)

Thanks Shop Shoe,, Not sure what happened to my reply, it vanished so will try again.
Yes I did use a test bar in the chuck. I used some 1/4" bars from an old printer they clock up ok in the lathe but not on the mill.
I then removed the assembled arbor, chuck & test bar from the mill gripped the test bar in the lathe chuck & clocked end if arbor
Results .025" My old drill stand is better than that.
Today I'll grip the test bar in a mill collet an see how that goes.
Keith


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## bazmak (Aug 29, 2017)

Clock up the spindle as well


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## Nick Hulme (Aug 30, 2017)

bazmak said:


> Clock up the spindle as well



+1 

Unless you start from a known point of reference then your measurements tell you nothing.


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## bazmak (Aug 30, 2017)

Its unlikely to be the spindle,most chinese lathe and mills are < 1 thou
Is the chuck a Jacob style or keyless. The jacob chuck especially a cheap
chinese copy is the likely problem


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## Wizard69 (Aug 30, 2017)

This is repeating what has already been said but run out on drill chucks and arbors can be pretty bad.   If the goal is to test the lathe, you don't want to be using a drill chuck to hold a test bar.

Second you have to be very careful with respect to setup.    Both the arbor and the taper bore in the spindle must be clean.   I've seen cases where rust preventative literally dried to a hard finish that really threw off the attached devices.   I'd make absolutely sure that the bore is as clean as it can be made, inspecting with a good light and magnifier.   It doesn't take much, just a speck will cause test failures.

While this shouldn't be a problem make sure the spindle bearings are properly adjusted.


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## Jasonb (Aug 31, 2017)

As the others have said the drill chuck may well not be that accurate, you have not said what error you actually found with it.

For milling you will either be holding the tool in a MT/R8 collet or using an ER collet chuck not the drill chuck. Start by measuring the taper inside the quill and then go from there.


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## goldstar31 (Aug 31, 2017)

Of course Jason is quite right in saying that the drill chuck is no place for using milling cutters.

I 've bought a few that came on the end of variegated electric drills and they  were perfectly adequate for my wooden shed construction and possibly when that is completed, I'll move the work to garden gates. I'm logical in the sense that I paid peanuts for them and expect peanuts.

If I want to run a lathe or mill, there is the cost of providing something which is fit for purchase and I expect to pay a great deal more for the quality of manufacture and the necessary inspection and possible rejection of items falling below the standard for lathes and mills-- and not garden sheds.

Those who disagree are living in a dreamland

 Others here have drawn attention to such topics as Machine Tool Reconditioning by Connelly. Worth a read several times

Regards

Norm


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## Kpar (Aug 31, 2017)

Well thanks a lot from all you guys much appreciated.
I gripped the test bar (home made) in a mill collet and ended up with a run out of 001-002" (my lathe must be ok)
put it back in the mill with the supplied drill chuck and ended up with 025"
No brand on the chuck but I can see some imperfections on one of the jaws, not sure if it's worth cleaning up.
Will shop around for a decent chuck & R8 arbor.
Off to Brisbane next week so will visit "Hare & Forbes"
Hopefully I'll get confident enough with the mill to start my first project.
Keith


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## Ken I (Aug 31, 2017)

I had a similar problem - looked really well made but ultimately junk.

http://http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=16467

Nowadays I will not buy anything that does not have a traceable brand name on it.

Think about that - they should be proud of what they make - a failure to brand a product now seems to me extremely dubious.

They don't want you tracking them down or bad-mouthing them in forums such as this.

Regards.

Ken


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## goldstar31 (Aug 31, 2017)

Unable to reply. Spilt a full glass of red wine into my laptop. 

I have a large run out  but where is my lobotomy. Lost it somewhere in the flood

Norm


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## Nick Hulme (Sep 1, 2017)

Kpar said:


> Will shop around for a decent chuck & R8 arbor.
> Off to Brisbane next week so will visit "Hare & Forbes"
> Hopefully I'll get confident enough with the mill to start my first project.
> Keith



It's not obvious from any of your posts here that you know that a (good) drill chuck is good for drilling but should not be used for milling. 

Ideally you should buy a collet chuck or endmill holders for holding milling cutters. 

Regards, 
Nick


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## DJP (Sep 1, 2017)

I had a 3 jaw lathe chuck that was old and the scroll was worn so runout was a problem. I chucked up a round piece at the back of the jaws and then trued them up with a boring bar and carbide bit. It was usable again but only for that size of round bar.  If you could do the same for this bad drill chuck you might be able to save it for a single size of milling cutters or dedicate it to a fly cutter. 

There has to be some usefulness remaining.


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## goldstar31 (Sep 1, 2017)

The grip of a drill chuck is minimal and given the chance , the milling cutter will work its way out of the chuck


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## Wizard69 (Sep 3, 2017)

While everyone has already mentioned that using end mills in drill chucks is bad there is one point that must be stressed: IT ISN'T SAFE!!!!   The problem comes about anytime the chuck is mounted on a taper, the helix in the cutter can pull the chuck right off the taper.   Once off the taper the chuck is free to go wherever it wants, including your gut or chest.   

If the chuck is mounted on a Jacobs taper with a morse taper at the other end you have two potential failure points. It isn't unlike what might happen if a drill bit cork screws into something you are drilling.  The tapers can release surprisingly fast.  Generally with a drill bit the material being drilled keeps the chuck from flying around the room.  Many milling operations will let the chuck fly.  

No one is perfect but if you chuck an end mill in a chuck designed for drill bits understand that you are putting yourself at risk of deadly injury.


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## Nick Hulme (Sep 3, 2017)

Wizard69 said:


> IT ISN'T SAFE!!!!



Well, in a drill press that is almost, but not quite (as at least one of my drill presses has provision for a draw bar) definitely true  
In a mill such as that belonging to the OP there is usually a draw bar and most drill chucks provided with such mill drills will have provision for the included draw bar and be on a threaded arbour. 
BTW it's a good move to calmly and sensibly inform people of your worries as if they're thick enough to ignore you then no amount of "SHOUTY CAPITALS" or rant and diatribe will get through ;-)


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## Wizard69 (Sep 5, 2017)

In this case the caps are all about stressing an important point and used minimally.   It is no different than breaking open a manual and seeing bold or capitalized text.   It is a sound way to draw attention to an important point. 

Now the internet has tried to turn applying emphasis to text as a form of yelling, often this is just thin skinned people overly sensitive to direct communications.   On the other hand imagine you are working in a plant and see a trainee about to do something dangerous from afar.  Do you remain silent or raise your voice to stop the event?    Frankly if you remain silent you aren't the type of person id want to see on my team.    Sometimes the right thing to do is to get peoples attention anyway you can.    By the way this doesn't just apply to trainees, ive seen many accidents avoided simply by getting somebodies attention as quickly as possible.  


Nick Hulme said:


> Well, in a drill press that is almost, but not quite (as at least one of my drill presses has provision for a draw bar) definitely true
> In a mill such as that belonging to the OP there is usually a draw bar and most drill chucks provided with such mill drills will have provision for the included draw bar and be on a threaded arbour.
> BTW it's a good move to calmly and sensibly inform people of your worries as if they're thick enough to ignore you then no amount of "SHOUTY CAPITALS" or rant and diatribe will get through ;-)


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## Nick Hulme (Sep 6, 2017)

Wizard69 said:


> Now the internet has tried to turn applying emphasis to text as a form of yelling.



Nope, been that way since IRC days when Hypertext Markup Browsers were a thing of the future and is a convention of the medium which you are using since before you were using it ;-)

*Bold Text* *and/or* _Italics _ are used to emphasize


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## DJP (Sep 6, 2017)

The problem of shouting occurs when the caps lock key stays on for the entire note. That turns people off.

Unfortunately I am also getting annoyed at auto spell checking and word substitution. My typing skills are weak so I expect to go back and fix typo problems when I reread the message. I really don't need this new level of automation that changes the meaning of my messages.

I'm sure that there is productivity for someone and that's good but I'm not that person.


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## Wizard69 (Sep 7, 2017)

DJP said:


> The problem of shouting occurs when the caps lock key stays on for the entire note. That turns people off.


Pretty much my feeling.  


> Unfortunately I am also getting annoyed at auto spell checking and word substitution. My typing skills are weak so I expect to go back and fix typo problems when I reread the message. I really don't need this new level of automation that changes the meaning of my messages.


This can be extremely frustrating to very embarrassing.   Sometimes it pays to turn off auto correct especially if misspelled words remain highlighted.    Ive had text turned into complete gibberish so I feel your pain.  


> I'm sure that there is productivity for someone and that's good but I'm not that person.



What is even more frustrating is that these autocorrect features will learn your misspellings and after a bit accept them as correct, that right there is enough to cause one to smash a perfectly good keyboard.


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## Wizard69 (Sep 7, 2017)

Nick Hulme said:


> Nope, been that way since IRC days when Hypertext Markup Browsers were a thing of the future and is a convention of the medium which you are using since before you were using it ;-)
> 
> *Bold Text* *and/or* _Italics _ are used to emphasize



I'm well aware of how this got started and frankly my opinion hasn't changed any, it is the domain of simple minded people that wanted to create their own little  world they had complete control over.    Mind you I was in fact around long before  Hypertext, the web and other goods we have these days.   More so I was very familiar with the people involved in the culture that tried to mandate this nonsense having taken comp-sci classes when Modula 2 was the teaching language of choice.    These are the same idiots that wouldn't upgrade their E-mail programs to handle modern E-mail and would demand plain text E-mails.   They may have been at the birth of the industry and technology but they quickly became Luddites.

In any event caps are a rational way to bring emphasis and has been common place in printed materials for a very long time.   It is likely that it has been that way due in part to companies being cheap trying to make type setting as inexpensive as possible.   None the less it is common practice and caps do draw ones attention.


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## Ken I (Sep 8, 2017)

I use bold text, capitals and italics to emphasize points all the time.

I am not shouting - even if the hypertext Luddites say so.

I've been doing what is recognized practice since long before they came along.

Are emoticons any better / worse 

They certainly don't appear in Shakespeare :wall:

I never use them - other than here:hDe:

Run - hide - surrender ?

Ken


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## Cogsy (Sep 8, 2017)

Normally, I use **bold** for emphasis but occasionally I'll use CAPS for a word or two to make a point, and save italics for _critical details_. Maybe it's just my understanding but as far as I know all caps is only shouting when it's truly (or mostly) entirely caps - hence the name ALL CAPS. We don't read the first letter of every sentence and proper noun as a shout for the same reason. Emphasis and clarity are far from shouting.


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## DJP (Sep 9, 2017)

I wonder why we don't use colour more for emphasis. It's a new world where bold and all caps really aren't necessary.

Just a thought.


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## Wizard69 (Sep 9, 2017)

DJP said:


> I wonder why we don't use colour more for emphasis. It's a new world where bold and all caps really aren't necessary.
> 
> Just a thought.




We seem to be drifting off topic but at this very moment i have a good reason to keep it simple, im on a cell phone using the app to access the web site.   Any amount of fancy editing makes the posts that much harder to complete in a timely manner.  

So if you are on a constrained platform or rushed for time, capitalization of important points makes sense.   By the way i would tend to agree with the idea that an entire post in caps isn't nice.  However it isn't nice because it is harder to read, much like post with non stop sentences make for more difficult reading.  

In any event im done here, i think the thread has been pulled off the tracks a little too far.


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