# Shop layout, necessities



## Rayanth (Jun 9, 2011)

I've finally stumbled on the possibility of obtaining a place where I can set up a shop. As I have never actually done so, and presently don't have machinery yet anyway, I figured I'd ask around and see if anyone has ideas for ideal setups for efficiency's sake.

My goal is to obtain a Sherline mill and lathe, though I haven't decided yet if I want them to be CNC right away or converted later...(can they run be run manually after they're made into CNC? Without reconverting to manual?)

In the meantime, I could get myself a head start on setting up workbenches and the like, anything I can make out of wood I have ready access to the tooling to do so.

Assuming a one car garage, how would you set up a shop? Lathe/mill/drill press all in a row along one wall? Workbenches as an island in the middle, or along a wall? Lighting considerations? Protection for the concrete floor (it would be a rental)? Anything I can plan for in advance would be handy knowledge to have  

As far as tooling, I believe I can make do with a lathe, mill, drill press if I can't use the mill for drilling operations, and a tabletop grinder ($50 for an 8 inch at the home depot, those are easily affordable)

I suppose I might need a vice, and probably a handsaw, though I can make do with a hacksaw at first. We all need our exercise, right? 

What else should I consider?

I am very eager to get into this hobby, and will probably also use the shop for other hobbies (r/c cars, planes, maybe even boats as I live on a large lake)...but your inputs will be invaluable, as always.

Edit: I apologize in advance for anything strange in the above posting, i'm on my cellphone and it loves to substitute the wrong words (I fought for five minutes to get CNC instead of INC, stupid autocorrect)

Also, I realize there are probably other posts with similar questions, but it's almost impossible to work the search feature from my phone


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## lazylathe (Jun 9, 2011)

Hi Ryan!

Welcome to the forum!

Try this out and see if it works for you!

http://grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx

It is a free shop planner from Grizzly!

Andrew


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## Jim E (Jun 9, 2011)

Welcome to the forum. Sherline CNC machines CAN be used manually without changing anything. 

JIM


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## hobby (Jun 9, 2011)

Hi,
Welcome to the forum,

When you get involved in this hobby, enough to where you would like to stay with it, then a benchtop, horizontal bandsaw may be a good investment.

Or a harbor freight portable bansaw, which they put on sale quite often.

All these protable bandsaws seem to take the same size length of blades.

If you can afford one of those 4x6 horizontal/veertical bandsaws so commonly used, they are really great for doing scrollwork with.
I just discovered how conveniently easy it is to scroll aluminum plate 1/4" thick with my 4x6 unit, in its vertical position, with the table it comes with.

Tooling: Measurement:
 dial calipers, dial indicators (both travel, and test), are nice to start with.

 'littlemachineshop.com' has starter sets for test and measurement instruments.
They also carry some accesories and parts for sherline line of equipment too.

They also put together basic starter sets for the mini mill and lathe, but you could look over what they put together, and put together your own set of tooling for sherline products.

One of the real enjoyments that comes with this hobby of machining parts, is the ability and the means to which you could fabricate your own tooling.
When you build your own tooling, you get a lot of experiance in machining to tight tolerances as well as allows you to be creative in redesigning it to fit your particular need, in your shop.

Toolmaking and learning how to design and make fixtures and jigs is all part of model building, be it engines or anything else, there is always challenges to learn new techniques and ways to hold parts foer accurate operations to be done on it, and I have found that a lot of jigs (one off kind) can be made from wood, a hardwood that can be machined to accurate angles, and made properly to be able to hold workpieces securely, with the aid of clamps and such.

Have fun in this new venture.


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## Troutsqueezer (Jun 9, 2011)

The things you mentioned for tooling? Tip of the iceberg. :big:

Of course you need the lathe and mill, etc. but you also need the hardware to make them work, fixtures, measuring tools, bits, and much much more. In fact, added up, these items will likely cost more than the machines themselves. 

There are many posts on here with long lists of what these tools are. Some simple searches will find them and no doubt some of the more industrious/helpful posters to this forum will post their list in response to your query. I would but I'm feeling lazy today...doesn't say much for me, does it? *beer*


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 9, 2011)

Ray:
there probably have been books written on shop layout. Though none immedeatly come to mind. While similar questions have been asked before do a search but do not sweat it. 
1) it is near impossible to have too many electric outlets. Recptacles on the back of the bench for machine and a good idea to have a separate circuit for lights. Also a couple of outlests on the front of the bench for a vacume and portable power tools .
2)Plenty of lighting
 3) I like lots of drawers for storage. 
4) store lathe tools under the lathe mill tools under the mill. 
as far as work flow for manual machining this is pretty much Standard order of operations . 
metal storage, saw, debur, layout then to the lathe mil shaper etc. a mobile cart with measuring and standard tools can be moved near the machine you are on. 
The saw and grinder should be away from computer lathe , mill layout area and drawing are. But not too far that you have to make lots of steps. 
This should give a starting point at least. 
Tin


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## peatoluser (Jun 10, 2011)

don't forget to leave some of your budget for materials.
no point in having lots of tooling and nothing to cut :big:

given the size of the machines you want, a 4" bench vice should be ideal. A couple of files as well. 
I bet even those with CNC workshops still occasionaly reach them.
I personally wouldn't rate a band saw a high priority as your unlikely to be cutting thick sectioned steel. 
A hand hacksaw is fine so long as you remember it's not a race to cut through as quickly as possible, but do buy quality blades.

any idea what sort of engine you want to build?
I'm sure there's somebody here who's already built it and could advise you better as to what to purchase.

all the best with this hobby 

peter


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## crab (Jun 10, 2011)

Hi Ryan.A heavy island type workbench (old solid core doors make great tops ) would be nice if you have room for it.You can work on all sides of a project without moving it(comes in handy when working on boats and airplanes).I would put a GOOD,as in Wilton, bench vice at the top of the tooling list.Bill


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## Rayanth (Jun 10, 2011)

peatoluser  said:
			
		

> don't forget to leave some of your budget for materials.
> no point in having lots of tooling and nothing to cut :big:
> 
> given the size of the machines you want, a 4" bench vice should be ideal. A couple of files as well.
> ...



Thanks Pete!

I am a radial freak, plain and simple =) I have a passing interest in v blocks, but nothing in the world beats the sound of a radial being fired up at any scale.

I have been doing extensive CAD work from a set of plans for an Edwards Radial 5 (plans available freely and quite a few have been made to run)... One thing I love about CAD is that if you're so inclined you can use it sort of as a virtual machine shop. There are countless ways to build a part in CAD, but one fun one is to simply do it how you would machine it, keeping tool paths in mind, and 'remove' material from a solid block

This has kept me thinking about how a process would work in the shop, and led me to design a few custom tools for specific parts of the build

So in short answer to your question- I intend to build radials, possibly starting with the Edwards. I am also designing a 1/6 scale R4360Wasp Major ( 28 cylinder radial, 7x4) which is my ultimate ambition.


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## peatoluser (Jun 10, 2011)

Wilton? who are Wilton? Guess i'm from the wrong side of the pond. for me it has to be a Record LOL
 but seriously, radials? especialy 7 by 4!!

just remember th_wwp th_wwp

all the best with your building

peter


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## ShopShoe (Jun 10, 2011)

Don't forget the Shop Vac.

Please reassure us you'll have safety equipment in your plan.

In all seriousness, Welcome to the hobby and all the fun you'll have. Reading some of the build logs here can help you think of what processes you will need to do in addition to using your machines and where you might want to do put them in your shop. If you start with the idea that you'll go through several shop layouts you'll be ahead of the game when it changes. I try to use modular design: Common height of bench tops whenever possible and fit to my preferred posture, dimensions that fit nicely together as you move things around. Do you like to sit or stand or some of each?

--
ShopShoe


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## steamer (Jun 10, 2011)

Well, as far as equipment..

First decide on subject of project and scale.  A Tiny IC engine is one thing and a 1.5" scale Mikado locomotive is entirely another!


If small is where your going, based on your comments about Sherline products, then a 1 car garage is positively CAVERNOUS.  You'll have all kinds of room. With a 16" Monarch lathe and K&T mill....you'll be done right there!

I THINK the Sherlines can be run in manual mode...but I'll let others confirm that.

They have a lathe-mill-tooling package that is wonderful...if your going all in, go for it!

But think about what you want to build. The Sherlines hold their value pretty well, so you could do worse.

The next step up in size is the MINI mill and MINI lathe.....tool around the forum and you will find all kinds of information on them



Dave


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the response, dave!

I can't imagine making anything bigger than the 1/6 scale 4360 that is my ultimate dream. That engine all told would be a bit over a foot long, but that's from five separate pieces to the crankcase...and diameter less the cylinders would probably be in the 4 inch range if not less. So I believe a Sherline will suffice.
I have my eye on the CNC lathe and mill combo, with accessories kit, for 5,000....it will take me a while to save that up, with other financial obligations at the moment, but a man can dream ;D

I suppose down the road there might be a reason to go bigger, but by then my income will surely support it.

Speaking of income- does anyone actually make money off of their hobby or tooling? 

Ryan


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## dwentz (Jun 11, 2011)

Ryan,

Besides the lathes and milling machines, My most used tool hands down in the shop is my metal cutting band saw!
http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html

I would skip the drill press for the saw. The mill can double as a drill press. Even though I have 2 drill presses in the shop they get very little use. Most of the time I do my drilling in the mill.

Dont forget some kind of roll around tool box. Keeping things organized and handy is very important.

As you are just starting out I would recommend skipping the Sherline, and the CNC. They are fine machines but I think you will find that you will outgrow its size quickly. I started out with the Taig which is about the same size as the Sherline lathe. I purchased a Harbor Freight 7x10 minilathe next and I find it a much more capable machine, and it is cheaper as well. My first mill was a Grizzly Mini Mill which served me well, but I also out grew it and now have a Clausing 8520 knee mill. CNC is great but I find it way more usefull on the mill than on the lathe. For hobby stuff manual is more usefull when you are doing one offs and the like. I would recomend spending your money on a good DRO for the mill instead of CNC for now.

I just went through this with a friend that was looking at the Sherline machines. What I recommended to him was the following mid size tools. It was less money then the Sherline lathe and mill he was looking at, and gives you much more capacity. 

Grizzly G0463 Milling Machine $1000.00
Grizzly G8688 7x12 Mini Lathe $600.00

Dont forget at a minimum you will want a 4 jaw chuck, face plate, and HSS tooling for the lathe.
For the mill you will need endmill holders, a vice, a clamping kit, and a good selection of endmills.

Other than the saw and the grinder you mentioned, and the shop vac that was already mentioned Minimum hand tools would include.

Digital Calipers 6 inch.
1 inch Micrometer.
Set of machinists squares.
Set of center drills.
Full set of drill bits.
6 inch ruller.
Threading fishtail gauge.
Set of good files with handles.


My most used suppliers are
Enco
Little Machine Shop
Grizzly Industrial
Harbor Freight
Local Metal Recyclers for materials.


Hope this helps, welcome to the hobby!

I do need to warn you though. It is a disease. Once you get it, there is no known cure. The only treatments are spending time on the forumns and internet, reading lots about machining, and spending time in the shop making chips! 


Dale


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## steamer (Jun 11, 2011)

Web's comments resonate with me a bit. I think a Sherline might be small for what you have in mind.

I suspect you will need to do some machining of subassemblies "in situ" which means a bigger swing lathe.

Make sure you can swing that crank case anyway....

Dave


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## steamer (Jun 11, 2011)

Hey I just tried out that Grizzly shop layout software....works slick!

Dave


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## kvom (Jun 11, 2011)

The Edwards crankcase needs 4" diameter stock, so I'd want a lathe with a larger swing than a Taig or Sherline. Assuming that you would mill the facets of the crankcase, a 4"+ HV rotab would likely be needed with a mill large enough to support it.


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

I guess I don't understand the numbers on Lathes like I thought I did... could someone explain them?


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 11, 2011)

When I set up my shop a 11 ft x 14 ft room off the backof my house I did a layout with graph paper I drew the room to scale on it including windows doors and the radiator . I then cut out scale pieces from another sheet to represent work benches and machines. a piece of paper is easier to move than a machine or bench.
Tin .


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> When I set up my shop a 11 ft x 14 ft room off the backof my house I did a layout with graph paper I drew the room to scale on it including windows doors and the radiator . I then cut out scale pieces from another sheet to represent work benches and machines. a piece of paper is easier to move than a machine or bench.
> Tin .



Tin, I usually do that with my bedroom layouts and the like =) But as It may be a while before I get the machines, I was hoping to get some input on what I might do to prepare in advance, building workbenches etc.


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 11, 2011)

the swing is in theory the largest diameter piece you can put in the lathe and turn this is a US definition. In reality the chuck jaws take up space and reduce the real capacity. Sometimes one has to be real creative to turn max published cap. the second number in lathe size is center to center distance this is the longest piece one can turn between centers but again this can be reduced by tooling . drill chucks and drills can eat up space quickly.
Europe and UK states swing as a radius so a 7 inch lathe in the US woudls be a 3 1/2 in in the UK or Europe.
Tin


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

I think I just had a lightbulb moment. I was also for some reason misremembering that the Sherlines were 7x's, and now that I look at their website again it seems they are 3.5x's

So, obviously it won't work for my needs after all... hmm

I understand there are very differing opinions on CNC... and I myself am still of two minds on it. My thoughts on CNC are that it can help me obtain some much more complex shapes than is possible by hand, simply because CNC can move multiple axes at the same time, with precision... Last time I checked, you needed superpowers to do that by hand =) While castings are usually used to get these shapes, castings have to start from somewhere, and I figured CNC would be the way to go. I'm also a very computer-oriented individual, being of the generation that grew up with them becoming the main thing... and am not hesitant at all to give it a try.

However I do understand CNC is more expensive. I can try and save money by doing it myself, but I'm wary of ending up with a system not capable of the precisions I may need - for example, the strange angles I will need of my rotary table (51.42857 degrees, 25.71428 degrees, etc) I doubt I could accomplish by hand, and building CNC by hand might introduce too much slop or backlash... Naturally I'm thinking of this without _knowing_ much, so feel free to correct me.

My last thought is that going CNC 'later' would probably be better, financially. I could get into the hobby faster without waiting until i can afford the full rigs, and then i could convert the mill and lathe when i finally determine i need them to be CNC.

Don't you just hate the planning phases? So many unknowns and options!

- Ryan


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## mklotz (Jun 11, 2011)

My contention is that it is impossible to do a satisfying shop layout _a priori_. No matter how good a job you do with your computer programs, paper cutouts, etc. you will never fully model your own working idiosyncrasies or the unanticipated constraints imposed by the machines you'll eventually install.

If I had your constraints...

major tools not yet purchased but anticipating small tools
rental garage implying the need to move everything at some point in the future

and wanted to get started now, I would do something like the following...

Build four identical, sturdy, elbow-height wooden tables with a 2 x 2' top made of 3/4" marine plywood. Buy two commercial rolling drawer cabinets and fit them with a 2 x 2' top adjusted to the same height as the tables.

Now, when you get your lathe and mill, you can put these six elements together in all sorts of combinations until you work out a layout that works for your projects and your work flow. If you eventually decide that you really want a large workbench, these tables will easily convert to dedicated tool stands for the like of grinders, DPs, etc.. Plus, they will be easy to move should you need to in the future. Even if your final shop layout is completely unlike your initial layout, the time spent building these small modular benches will not have been wasted.

Some hints from my own experience:

Construct at least one or two of the tables so you can sit at them with your legs underneath.

Arrange the top so the front overhangs the base by about 2" so that you can clamp stuff to them.

Put a junction box on the front of the table with a heavy duty cord so tools can be plugged in without their cords lying all over the bench top. The junction box should have one switched outlet and two conventional outlets.


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the input, mklotz.

I agree with your contention on shop layout. I don't expect to get it right the first time. I was trying to ask more for ideas I can consider, in regards to general placement. Do people find it easier to keep the lathe right next to the mill, or opposite the mill, etc. The responses so far have given me a great deal to think about

I had honestly not considered having outlets on the front of the workbench. I love to lean, due to a bad back (who doesn't have a bad back these days?) and thought that would just end up getting in the way. perhaps on the side... hmm.

2x2 seems a bit small for a workbench to me, but i might go 2x4, following the rest of your suggestions. I live close enough to my dad, who's a licensed electrician, he can do all the electrical work I need. And if I get the place I'm hoping to get for rent, he happens to be the handyman for the company that manages that unit, too ;D My initial thoughts on the workbench was to have under-slung drawers right under the work surface. So if I have, say, a workbench for my lathe, my most commonly used lathe tools would be in the drawer right underneath it, readily accessible.

I am also looking at other uses for the shop. I would love to get back into my R/C hobbies. I understand that metal dust and flakes like to get everywhere in the shop, so I will have to consider a curtain or something to keep the R/C electronics safe. Or just do the electrical stuff in the dining room. I also do some fine scale modeling, but that can remain in the dining room.

- Ryan


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

Just looked back at page 1 and it looks like I missed a couple of posts, or details in posts.

To answer one question, yes safety is a high priority for me. I work as an assembler for 'machines' that weigh upwards of 50 tons (and yet they fly!) And safety is drilled into us every day at work. I have prescription safety glasses already, as we're required to wear safety glasses if we so much as set foot in the factory, and the company practically encourages us to bring any 'disposable' safety devices home with us for use in our hobbies. Ear plugs, safety glasses, gloves, shin and arm guards, ergonomics, etc.

Another post led me to look at Grizzly machines, as an alternative. I haven't looked into the possibility of converting these to CNC, but they have such a wide variety of machines, two questions came up:

Combo mill/lathe or lathe/mill machines look like a good way to save space and movement in the shop, are they more trouble than they are worth?

In a similar vein, they don't show much for smaller scale mills, but have lots listed in mill/drills. Is there a key difference that I should look out for? 

You guys have been awesome with the dispensing of advice, and I will not hesitate to share my own wisdom when it comes time 

- ryan


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## mklotz (Jun 11, 2011)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input, mklotz.



No formality here. Call me Marv.



> I agree with your contention on shop layout. I don't expect to get it right the first time. I was trying to ask more for ideas I can consider, in regards to general placement. Do people find it easier to keep the lathe right next to the mill, or opposite the mill, etc. The responses so far have given me a great deal to think about



I doubt it matters where the lathe is wrt to the mill. One is never back and forth between them so frequently that their relative placement is a concern. More important is the access space *around* the two tools.



> I had honestly not considered having outlets on the front of the workbench. I love to lean, due to a bad back (who doesn't have a bad back these days?) and thought that would just end up getting in the way. perhaps on the side... hmm.



I put mine on the left/right side of the square wooden posts that hold up the workbench. That makes them easily accessible without getting in the way.



> 2x2 seems a bit small for a workbench to me, but i might go 2x4, following the rest of your suggestions. I live close enough to my dad, who's a licensed electrician, he can do all the electrical work I need. And if I get the place I'm hoping to get for rent, he happens to be the handyman for the company that manages that unit, too ;D My initial thoughts on the workbench was to have under-slung drawers right under the work surface. So if I have, say, a workbench for my lathe, my most commonly used lathe tools would be in the drawer right underneath it, readily accessible.



My idea was to have several small tables that could be combined in various layouts to test the layout utility and establish what you might want to build in the future as a more permanent layout. I chose 2 x 2 because that makes a useful size for a small table (e.g., a grinder/sander stand) when you abandon the modular concept for a permanent layout.

Obviously, nothing I suggested is cast in concrete. Make what your materials and personal esthetics suggest but try to arrange things so the modular units can be used later in a more permanent shop.


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## Rayanth (Jun 11, 2011)

Marv, hadn't known a name to call you by other than the handle =)

It's funny how the brain works. millions of neurons firing in a careful symphony... yet occasionally a few fire off that make an intuitive leap based on an almost unrelated input.

Such is the case when you said 'modular'

My idea now is to build the 2x2 tables as you suggest but without a finished worktop. There will be 2x2 finished worktops, and 2x4 finished worktops. If I want a small bench, I can put the 2x2 top on it, and place it where needed. If I want a 2x4, I can put two of the stands together and put the one worktop on it. Modular at its finest! Of course now I have to modify the proposal for the electrical boxes... perhaps mounted to a leg, or something...


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## dwentz (Jun 11, 2011)

Ryan,

 The general advice is to stay away from the combo machines. They are very limited in what they can do, and many times you take a work piece back and forth from the mill and the lathe, and you have to completely re-set up the combo for each operation. The rigidity is not their in the mill section on most of them as they share the lathe compound as a milling table. That said there is a lot of fine work by people that use a combo machine.

 The term mill/drill is usually associated with mills that have the head of the mill which moves up and down, instead of the work table like on a knee mill. They can also have a quill. You want to stay away from the ones with the round vertical column. Their biggest downfall is that if you have to change the head position on a mill with a round column you loose all registration with the work piece and have to relocate your centers or edges again. The square column units ride on dovetails so when you move them everything stays in alignment if the machine is set up correctly.

 Dale


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## mklotz (Jun 11, 2011)

While I endorse Dale's recommendation to get a square column mill now that they are widely available, I'd like to point out that I believe George (Britnell) uses a round column mill/drill. One look at his work should convince you that the shape of the column can be accommodated quite handily.


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## Tin Falcon (Jun 11, 2011)

Like others have said the next step up in size from the Sherline /taig size is the popular seig C2/c3 lathe and x 2 mill. sold by grizzly . these can and have been converted to cnc the mill more than the lathe but both are doable and plans available. I converted an x-2 to cnc and considered converting my lathe. Then I came across a Deal on another small lathe that was a better candidate for cnc. 
the general consensus on the combos is to much time spent changing set ups and limited work area. 
I started with wooden benches then got a deal on a couple of Craftsmen benches form sears 5 ft long 4 drawers on one side cabinet on the other. It is nice to have a hand work bench like marv said I mad a jewelers bench . Unfortunaly the cnc machines are taking it up right now. 
Tin


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## Sshire (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm in the same position. Waiting for mill and lathe to arrive. I believe I have gotten what I need (according to the posts here) to get started. Hadn't thought about files. What types, lengths, brands should I get as a start?
Thanks

Stan


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## Maryak (Jul 11, 2011)

Stan,

For model work you probably don't need to go outside a range of 4" - 8" length.

Next lets look at shapes. Flat, 1/2 round, square, triangular and round.

Finally the cut. Coarse called bastard, medium called 2nd cut and fine called smooth. There are further variances on this theme such as mill bastard mill etc. and specials such as needle files but stick with the 3 basics for a start.

The 2nd cut can be given a miss because there are some 27 files in the above range and that works out to quite a few dollars for good quality files.

Just my suggestion and I hope it helps.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Rayanth (Jul 13, 2011)

Has anyone ever set up shop in a carpeted room? What sorts of protection can be reliably used to protect the carpet from swarf and oil and other stuff? Provided i'll be using tabletop machines, I imagine the workbench can have protection built in, but input would be highly useful.

The rental I am looking at has a one car garage but it only has a lighting circuit to my knowledge and may not have outlets. So i'm thinking of using one of the bedrooms.

Input is greatly appreciated

- Ryan


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## steamer (Jul 13, 2011)

Ryan

Carpet is a bad idea....can you roll the carpet up?....leave it up until you leave and no one will be the wiser.

If you must, get a cooking pan big enough for the lathe and or mill to sit inside of

I did that at my first apartment, and that kept stuff off the carpet...most of the time

Dave


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## willburrrr2003 (Jul 13, 2011)

I am almost ready to go into production on a fly fishing trainer, will be making it on my CNC-Minilathe that is in its final stages. I will be getting business lic, filing patent paperwork, manufacturing them myself, and selling them to fly shops local first and then if goes well, will expand coverage area out from WA to other States, and possibly onto the net as well.

Regards,

  Will R.  Everett, WA.



			
				Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Speaking of income- does anyone actually make money off of their hobby or tooling?
> 
> Ryan


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 14, 2011)

I started making pen and pencil sets when I started out. probably over a hundred sets over time gave alot aq way but sold some as well paid for a good chunk of tooling. .


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## ChooChooMike (Jul 14, 2011)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Has anyone ever set up shop in a carpeted room? What sorts of protection can be reliably used to protect the carpet from swarf and oil and other stuff? Provided i'll be using tabletop machines, I imagine the workbench can have protection built in, but input would be highly useful.


I have my Sherlines set up on a home made bench in my 2nd bedroom which is carpeted. I put down a couple of the large hard plastic chair mats (so chairs can roll around easier) that actually work pretty well.







They're available at any office supply store - Office Depot/Staples/etc. Search on "*floor chair mat*". Much easier to vacuum swarf up that way  

Mike


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## steamer (Jul 14, 2011)

Mike

That's a great idea!...A karma for you!

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 14, 2011)

Google anti fatigue mat lots of choices many sizes available
2,3,4 ft wide by as long as 60 ft. 

U-line mats
Tin


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## jtrout13 (Jul 15, 2011)

If you do much boring or press fitting, a set of bore gauges are a must.


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 16, 2011)

Just have to comment about carpet...

I think it either needs to go or be completely covered wall-to-wall.
It just takes one bit of curled steel or brass in the carpet to convince you.

I know some people have completely enclosed their machines...but even they seem convinced that the swarf jumps out on its on when the door is opened. If you could make a wing out of swarf...it would fly on its own.

My floor is vinyl that I'd laid down over the basement floor. I clean up before going upstairs and am amazed how much swarf I find on the the little mat I have at the bottom of the stairs. It mostly comes from the shoes. Some people keep a separate pair of shoes in the shop that they change into/out of as they enter or leave.

Just my thoughts.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 16, 2011)

Well I do have carpet in my shop. The vinyl tile floor was getting scratched from heavy traffic and swarf so I have a piece of scrap industrial carpet in front of my lathe in the high traffic area. And carpet in most of the room an anti fatigue mat that I salvaged in fron of the main work bench. so all the floor covering except the floor tile in my shop is hand me down stuff I do not need to worry about. 
If in a rental situation with wall to wall carpet I think Z is right cover it with something. Floor mats plywood etc. 

I remember years ago there was a traveling wild west show that came to town held in the gym of the local college. the floor was covered with homosote . Yes there were horses inside the building in the gym. Protect the carpet protect your security deposit. also do not forget the walls behind the lathe. I have a sheet of plexiglass behind mine oil stripes behind machines happen. 
Tin


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## Rayanth (Jul 17, 2011)

well, i realized i had some spare time today (rare occurence) and went to the local Harbor Freight to see what they have. They had a display model of a7x10 lathe so I played with that for a short while, but I'm surprised at just how small it really is. I now have a better understanding of what can really be done with that size lathe, and I'm certain I will need something a bit larger.

They did not have any mills in stock, but they did say if their website has it (and it's not being clearanced) they can order it to the store to save me shipping. I'm wary of that route, after the revelation of the size of the lathe.

One of the three Grizzly outlets is about an hour drive from me. perhaps one of these weekends I can swing up there and see the broader selection they have available.

- Ryan


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## Sshire (Jul 17, 2011)

Be aware that virtually everything that you'll want (even 123 blocks) at grizz has a looooong waiting list and/or is out of stock. I had ordered the G0702 in May and was told it would arrive in July. July email from grizz said new ship date would be October. I cancelled and ordered the Precision Matthews 1127VF a few weeks ago. I should have it Aug 15 or thereabouts. 
Just sayin'
Stan


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## Swede (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm a little late to this thread... Ryan, I have no idea where you are at in the acquisition phase, so these comments might not even apply.

If you want to build radials, you're really going to need a 10" or larger lathe to do it in a reasonable time frame. The old saying is VERY true - "buy the biggest machine you can afford." Machine tools are expensive, heavy, and a pain to sell or move, so it is best to do it right the first time.

A 4" to 6" crankcase will lose maybe 90% of its mass when cut from bar, and while I've heard 100 guys say "I'm in no rush, I'll do it with 0.006" passes" meaning boring it out will take over 600 passes of the boring tool, and then reality hits. It's not fun doing this, and importantly, when you're doing something 600 times, the chances of something going wrong on one of them goes way up. My radial crankcase was chucked for over a week, IIRC. It lived in the 3-jaw that whole time.

And to hold a 4" aluminum round correctly requires at least a 6" chuck, preferably an 8" chuck. And that means a 12" or larger lathe.

Next is the mill. You've got your turned crankcase mounted on a rotary table or spacer. It's situated vertically on a mill table, because each cylinder station must be precision bored and milled. Add up the height requirements... you've got a 6" diameter spacer with the crankcase in it, a 3" boring tool, a 3" head for the tool with the shank above that. At least 10" to 12" of free space between spindle nose and table. That's not a small mill. It might exceed many of the benchtop mills out there.

I don't want to discourage you, but you need to be aware of this. You can make a Luhr's engine on tabletop machines, but it is going to be very challenging to make something bigger.

On CNC - some guys love it, use it all the time. It seems ideal for making multiple parts, but to do ONE part, you've got to model it, post-process, verify toolpath, set it up, run it. In the time it takes, I'll have it done already twice over the old-fashioned way. CNC can be a great addition, but I'd start manually first. That will give you an idea of what works, how big a bite you can take, what sorts of feeds and speeds work well.

Good luck!


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## Mosey (Jul 26, 2011)

Tin Falcon  said:
			
		

> Well I do have carpet in my shop. The vinyl tile floor was getting scratched from heavy traffic and swarf so I have a piece of scrap industrial carpet in front of my lathe in the high traffic area. And carpet in most of the room an anti fatigue mat that I salvaged in fron of the main work bench. so all the floor covering except the floor tile in my shop is hand me down stuff I do not need to worry about.
> If in a rental situation with wall to wall carpet I think Z is right cover it with something. Floor mats plywood etc.
> 
> I remember years ago there was a traveling wild west show that came to town held in the gym of the local college. the floor was covered with homosote . Yes there were horses inside the building in the gym. Protect the carpet protect your security deposit. also do not forget the walls behind the lathe. I have a sheet of plexiglass behind mine oil stripes behind machines happen.
> Tin



Homasote...a good Trenton NJ product.


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## Rayanth (Jul 26, 2011)

Swede, Thanks a ton for your input, it confirmed a few of my suspicions for making radials =)

I've not yet begun to acquire tools, but I've begun to set aside my budget for it. I am not quite certain I'm up to a radial just yet, and I can foresee the possibility that having both a larger lathe and a smaller benchtop lathe could come in handy, if I wish to stop and make other parts while working something that I just don't want to remove.

CNC is more of an interest due to the fact that some parts of certain types of complexity are virtually impossible by hand. I eventually intend to do other things with my tools, both as other projects or to just add other types of flair to my engines, such as engravings and the like. CNC would come in very handy for this, even as one-offs, and I do understand that setup for a cnc job is tedious, but in the long run, it can add a flair that makes it worth it, if the profile is otherwise just too hard, or impossible, manually.

It's really hard to sit down and quantify all of my desires for the shop, and thus get the 'perfect' list together. Right now I'm balancing between waiting significantly longer to get the bigger machinery to do everything I want to do, or starting small, working smaller projects and getting started earlier (and feeding my appetite and ambition to make chips) while I save up and get bigger machines later. I'm kind of leaning on the latter idea, as the smaller machines can always be used for other projects, or dedicated to small CNC projects.

- Ryan


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## steamboatmodel (Jul 26, 2011)

Swede  said:
			
		

> I'm a little late to this thread... Ryan, I have no idea where you are at in the acquisition phase, so these comments might not even apply.
> 
> If you want to build radials, you're really going to need a 10" or larger lathe to do it in a reasonable time frame. The old saying is VERY true - "buy the biggest machine you can afford." Machine tools are expensive, heavy, and a pain to sell or move, so it is best to do it right the first time.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with the above. CNC is great, but you have to learn how to do it with a manual mill before you try it with CNC.
Regards,
Gerald 
Retired CNC Programmer/Operator.


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## Swede (Jul 27, 2011)

Ryan, I like your thoughts on getting started. If you wait until you know exactly what you want and need, you'll never start, because in the end, it's pretty much impossible to know exactly what you'll use and like, and what you'll not use so much. You've simply got to start somewhere. At the same time, you don't want to shell out $8,000 for a fully tooled Myford that would be a dream machine for many who do all their work on a slightly smaller scale, but doesn't quite have the swing you'll need. And the mill is even more important.

I truly respect guys who are able to do mill processes in a lathe, like setting up a big angle iron on a faceplate and milling radial cylinder stations. It can be done, but with a vertical mill of adequate size, you'll be able to do the same thing in 1/5th of the time.

Nothing can be more frustrating than a mill that chokes on its own Z axis. Even a drill chuck and a jobbers drill will consume most of the Z on many bench machines, let alone adding 8" to 10" of crankcase beneath the drill. The cylinder stud holes and tappet holes fit this setup description. If you want to do this, it's going to take a true knee mill. 

If I could own only two machine tools, I'd pick a knee mill with at least an 8" X 36" table, a mini-bridgeport sized machine, and I'd want at least a 10" lathe with 1.5 or more HP. Rigidity and power need mass to make it work properly. 

Bridgeport mills are all over the place, cheap, as machine shops shift to CNC to be competitive. Nice lathes can be more challenging. There's nothing wrong with getting started smaller, but remember that there's nothing you can do on a Sherline that someone can't also do (probably better) on a Hardinge or Monarch. So I wouldn't dump too much money into smaller equipment unless you are determined to make the smaller stuff work.

Machining as a hobby is logistically difficult. It's not like buying a saxophone or an oil painting set to give those a whirl. You are committing to expensive and heavy tools that are not easy to sell and move.  ;D


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## Rayanth (Jul 27, 2011)

And it's that last part that kind of scares me. The moving of these machines that weigh more than a ton....that was why I was focused on benchtop stuff to start with. Something that's 300 pounds, assembled, can be disassembled and rebuilt on the bench, or at the worst, lifted up with an engine hoist.

How do you move around the big guns? If I buy a house 5 years from now, and want to move my 3000 pound Bridgeport, who do I call? I suppose I can rent something from hertz to make local in the shop moves, but anything more than just two houses down the street is surely a logistical problem, how do you guys do it?


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## zeeprogrammer (Jul 27, 2011)

I know it's been mentioned before...but it's worth mentioning again...safety.

Fire extinguisher near the entrance/exit, first aid kit, and a phone within reach. And it doesn't hurt for somebody to know you're in the shop.

My experience is limited to a mini-lathe and mini-mill...but I've found it very useful to have access to the mini-mill from at least two sides.

Whatever the size of equipment...the damage it can do may differ...but the considerations for safety is the same. Hm...I can apply that philosophy to some other hobbies of mine. ;D


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## Mosey (Jul 27, 2011)

and of course, no sleeves, gloves, long hair, neckties, etc., on the machines.
Also, I think someone said along time ago, don't work alone.
I'm sure there are quite a bit more of these selectively-followed but important safety rules.


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## Swede (Jul 29, 2011)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> And it's that last part that kind of scares me. The moving of these machines that weigh more than a ton....that was why I was focused on benchtop stuff to start with. Something that's 300 pounds, assembled, can be disassembled and rebuilt on the bench, or at the worst, lifted up with an engine hoist.
> 
> How do you move around the big guns? If I buy a house 5 years from now, and want to move my 3000 pound Bridgeport, who do I call? I suppose I can rent something from hertz to make local in the shop moves, but anything more than just two houses down the street is surely a logistical problem, how do you guys do it?



It's not gobs of fun, but it can be done. It's possible to move machines around on a concrete floor with a little effort, by simply manhandling them... but obviously be careful. When the day comes for the big move, I'd go with the pros.

About 7 years ago, I moved to another house about 3 miles away. In my new shop, I laid out and marked on the floor, with masking tape, where I wanted the machines. Then I looked in the yellow pages for "Machinery riggers and movers" and started dialing the phone. In the end, I had 3 strapping young men, a flatbed trailer, a small forklift, and the tools and expertise to do the job properly. I told them "Put the lathe here, the mill here" and like magic, it was done safely. Worth every penny, I think I paid $500, and it was a load off my mind. My point is that there are people who do that for a living.

If you have to move long distances, it'll be more costly, but the same movers & riggers would move the machines to a shipping company. The shippers drive them to the new location, and then they, or another bunch of riggers, install them. When you think about the huge number of gigantic industrial machines that get moved around all the time, it makes sense that there are guys who specialize in this.

In the end, if you can't make what you want, you'll have regrets. Good luck!


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## Rayanth (Aug 4, 2011)

I finally got a chance to see my new place today. As I may have mentioned earlier, I have been living with my parents since I got out of the United States Chair Force last September. To date, all of my 'machining' has been in CAD, and my head.

I found a 2-bedroom unit in a fourplex with detached one-car garage for a great price in the local area, and went to check it out today. the one-car garage is spacious, but it only has one outlet, and one single-bulb light in the center of the ceiling. there is a lot of natural light in the area with the door open, but I'm concerned about only having the one outlet.

Since it's wired for standard household current, and it's a rental, I know I will be limited in the size of the machines I can use (but hey at least it's a start!); I suppose with proper discipline, it can't be all that hard to only turn on one machine at a time. But I'm interested to know if anyone has had any bad experiences with plugging their machines in to power strips (without anything else actively running on them) as opposed to straight into the wall. It would be nice to have more outlets, so I'm not constantly unplugging and replugging, but I guess I need to know if it's unsafe, or unwise, to use a power strip? (I do understand it should be protected against swarf)

Thank you as always for all the great input you all provide, it has been incredibly helpful in preparing me for this hobby.

- Ryan


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## ShopShoe (Aug 4, 2011)

Ryan,

Been there, Done That (but before metal machines.)

Is your garage one of four provided for all the tenants? The real concern with the one outlet is that it may be on the end of a circuit that also supplies other garages, operates yard lights or other things, etc. A lot depends on who wired it and when. Do you have access to the circuit breaker if you trip it? (You probably will.) Is it a GFCI outlet or circuit?

Regarding power strips, there are "Industrial" ones with heavy construction, lots of outlets, and longer and heavier cords. In my central USA location the main issue that waves red flags is when you plug power strips into power strips or use power strips with extension cords. 

--ShopShoe


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## Rayanth (Aug 5, 2011)

All good questions that I didn't bother to think of myself. I will look into these things when I go back next. The garage is one of four for the fourplex. They are all in one building and indeed it's attached to the main building, it is closest to the main building, but that doesn't mean much. As for circuit breakers I don't recall seeing them there, but my father (who is the rental company's handyman) is a certified electrician and can probably figure that part out for me. He could also replace the normal outlet with a gfci one, I suspect.

- Ryan


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 5, 2011)

Ray you should also check and see if the lingt and the outlet are on the same circuit. It is much preferred
 if they are not that way if a machine trips the breaker the lights do not go out.
Tin


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## Rayanth (Aug 5, 2011)

Not looking so good. the circuit breakers for the garages are not accessible by the tenants, as far as I could tell. So if I trip one, I have to put in a maintenance call. For random reasons of irony, such a call would be answered by my own father (he's the rental management company's primary handyman contractor) but he'd still have to go get the keys, and that's just an annoyance I'd prefer to avoid.

He also suspects it's only a 15amp breaker. The only way out of that, that I can see, is having some sort of pre-breaker on the outlet side, set to say 14 amps, that would trip before the actual breaker, but I'm not even sure such a thing exists.

Looking like I'll be out of the hobby for longer.

-- Ryan


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## Rayanth (Aug 6, 2011)

Apparently, according to my girlfriend, and something that is entirely news to me - there are "other hobbies out there"... I can't tell if she's pulling my leg, or actually being serious.

Contemplating getting back into r/c cars and planes and possibly boats. Could certainly do THOSE things on one outlet without access to the circuit breaker. (or even in the house if I really must) .. it will satisfy the itch to build something, until I can save up to buy a house, or rent a better place or something ;D

I won't go anywhere, and I'll still touch that R-4360 design project from time to time, but other things demand my attention and time, and it probably isn't the best time to be starting down this road.

- Ryan


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## Maryak (Aug 6, 2011)

There are also other girls out there ;D ;D ;D ;D :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\


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## ttrikalin (Aug 6, 2011)

I got asymptotically infinite enjoyment from my Sherline lathe and mill. Yes they have little envelopes, but you can do a lot of very accurate machining. 

For one and odd years my shop was the second bedroom in our 649 sqft 2 bedroom 2nd floor apartment. I had to pack the lathe and mill in the closet. They would come out of the closet in the weekends. I would meticulously clean afterwards. 

Anastasia was very cool with that, as long as I cleaned up. (Now we are in a different place, but I still have to clean the garage up very quickly).

Alexander from Brazil has a similar arrangement. Many many hobbyists do tabletop machining.

take care, 
tom in MA


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 6, 2011)

> My goal is to obtain a Sherline mill and lathe, though I haven't decided yet if I want them to be CNC right away or converted later...(can they run be run manually after they're made into CNC? Without reconverting to manual?)


you should have no worries mate. you do not need industrial electric circuits for Sherline they are home machines. make yourself at home with them. Seig machines will work fine too as will Taig. 
You will have space and an outlet that is all you realy need to get started. yes tools and workbench 

Tin


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## Mosey (Aug 6, 2011)

Rayanth  said:
			
		

> Apparently, according to my girlfriend, and something that is entirely news to me - there are "other hobbies out there"... I can't tell if she's pulling my leg, or actually being serious.
> 
> Contemplating getting back into r/c cars and planes and possibly boats. Could certainly do THOSE things on one outlet without access to the circuit breaker. (or even in the house if I really must) .. it will satisfy the itch to build something, until I can save up to buy a house, or rent a better place or something ;D
> 
> ...


 The tiny R/C Blade helicopters can be flown in the living room quite nicely!


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## Mosey (Aug 6, 2011)

ttrikalin  said:
			
		

> I got asymptotically infinite enjoyment from my Sherline lathe and mill. Yes they have little envelopes, but you can do a lot of very accurate machining.
> 
> For one and odd years my shop was the second bedroom in our 649 sqft 2 bedroom 2nd floor apartment. I had to pack the lathe and mill in the closet. They would come out of the closet in the weekends. I would meticulously clean afterwards.
> 
> ...


 If you look closely at the pictures in the magazines, and the videos of Rudy Kouhoupt he did all of his work in his tiny breezeway of his little house on a 9" South Bend, and I don't recall what mill he had. There were never any chips visible. He did magnificent work!


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## steamer (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey Ryan,

The Sherline will do well in a bedroom or spare room ...really.

Don't be dismayed...or dissuaded

.....there Bob....I spelled that better didn't I :

Dave


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## Maryak (Aug 6, 2011)

steamer  said:
			
		

> .....there Bob....I spelled that better didn't I :
> 
> Dave



Oh my, I'm so glad my post wasn't waisted.

Best Regards
Bob


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## steamer (Aug 6, 2011)

...or even Pleated!

Dave


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## spuddevans (Aug 7, 2011)

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Oh my, I'm so glad my post wasn't waisted.



A waist is a terrible thing to mind.

Tim


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 7, 2011)

> If you look closely at the pictures in the magazines, and the videos of Rudy Kouhoupt he did all of his work in his tiny breezeway of his little house on a 9" South Bend, and I don't recall what mill he had. There were never any chips visible. He did magnificent work!


Rudy was an amazing guy: I miss him he treated me like a friend. Rudy had a small shed shop in his yard a mere 98 square feet. Most places in the US do not tax or regulate under 100 square feet. Most folk would consider 8' x 12 ft small but hat is what Rudy had. Many of Rudys Early projects were done on a Unimat and a small Perris Lathe. Some of the milling was done on the unimat. 
In later years projects were done on a Sherline . yes Rudy had a 9" south bend but from what I have seen published much of what he did was on much smaller machines. 
I have a friend that I know from the Cabin fever show. He does fantastic work on his Sherline. 
As the Sherline site states Think big machine small. 
tin


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## steamer (Aug 9, 2011)

Ryan

I hope you haven't gone away.
Stick with it.  My first lathe was a AA109 and my homemade mill....it was set up in a third floor apartment of a 3 decker bedroom that was too small for anything else. The mill column was filled with concrete to stiffen it up. I mixed and poured the concrete in the kitchen!....

You may say what was I thinking!......I would answer...I was thinking " I can do this".....so can you.

Stick with it.

Dave


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## Tin Falcon (Aug 9, 2011)

Ray the biggest part of this and likely any other endeavor is want to . Craftsmanship can take many forms and scales. Do not let others take your dreams.
Tin


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## steamer (Aug 9, 2011)

Do not let others take your dreams.



Amen Brother!

NEVER.......EVER!


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## Mosey (Aug 10, 2011)

It is a one-way ticket...so live the dream.


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## Rayanth (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm not intending to disappear entirely from the scene, I'm just concerned about the situation of my present place. And I aim to be here a while, so the easiest way to make sure I don't get in trouble is to not go and try to cause any.

My next major life goal is a rental or purchased house. On my present income it's technically feasible but the current economy makes it impossible. Rather than throw a bunch of money into equipment I'm afraid to use, I feel it's prudent to save that money towards a house, and stick with less expensive hobbies in the meantime.

I have always valued all of the input you fine folks have given me, and aim to continue to lurk around, and still work on the 4360 CAD from time to time.

- Ryan


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