# Marine boiler build



## johnnyo (Nov 19, 2012)

Hi All
This is a marine boiler in 4" O.D. Type K copper tube I'm currently working on. I'm fabricating a sight glass with blow down capability and thinking about where to plumb the rest of it. Should  a bottom drain be installed and ported overboard? I have two bushes on front and might use one for bottom tap of glass and other for common line for feed pumps. This is a dry back so I might pipe steam out from under dome thru back tube sheet into dry back area. No hole for it yet but aux. steam and psi gauge are in dome now. Will add hole in front of dome for top tap of glass later.I don't know if I needed type K in construction, rather heavy, but in reading various it can't hurt.
Thanks
Johnny O


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## lennardhme (Nov 19, 2012)

Nice looking boiler - tell us some more about it. Your own design ?, kit ?
Leonard


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## GWRdriver (Nov 19, 2012)

Very nice work, clean and built like a tank, but considering its color I do have to ask about the dome.  Is that formed of brass, or bronze?


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## Beachside_Hank (Nov 19, 2012)

That is a nice looking boiler. If you're going to install a bottom or surface blow valve and discharge below the waterline, you'll want a two- valve system: the main and a guard (backup) valve. On all Naval boilers the guard valve would ensure you could shut down the line in case of a jammed valve seat in the main. A check valve may be optional, but our method was to open the guard valve first, then the main, shut the guard and lastly the main so there was no boiler pressure left between the two.


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## Jasonb (Nov 20, 2012)

johnnyo said:


> I don't know if I needed type K in construction, rather heavy, but in reading various it can't hurt.


 
I would have hoped that you had done calculations to see if the materials and construction were suitable before starting to cut metal.

Your busheds also look quite bright but it may be the photos hopefully they are not brass.

Workmanship loks good though.

J


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## johnnyo (Nov 20, 2012)

I did do a good bit of reading on these in books and internet, like K.N. harris model boilers, which sad to say has pages falling out from use. I also avoid brass and stick to bronze. either bearing or phos. bronze. These were used for dome and bushes. I bought pious. bronze from mcmaster for the stays and used threaded collars on ends for support. I formed the steam dome and base from bronze but would like to have used copper, flanged over if I could. I'll grab a pic of dome next time I'm out there. I used as much info from Harris book and pictures as I could in coming up with a design. DraftSight helped out a lot too in laying out tubes.
Thanks

Johnny O


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## johnnyo (Nov 20, 2012)

Hi All
I got a picture of the dome and sight glass. I need to tie in bottom of sight glass to water side of boiler but don't want to use the tube sheet bushing. I want to have a hand pump on one and engine driven pump on other. I think a bushing in body on side of boiler if I can make it work. The only brass used in const, is the smoke box and tube besides this sight glass. 
I'm open to suggestions on firing this as I haven't got that far. I plan on installing galloway tubes as well, so some type of torch style burner is in order. The dry back cover is filled with refract. cement 7/16" thick. By the time I add a steam engine and auxillaries this thing will be heavy. 
I'm going to need a bigger boat.


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## johnnyo (Nov 20, 2012)

Ok, I forgot the picture. here it is. Forced myself thru making those 3-48 model nuts, like machining popcorn, but you can't eat it.


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## GWRdriver (Nov 20, 2012)

For future reference, . . . many builders include rivets for their aesthetic/visual effect, but as for strength, a sound silver solder joint is stronger than the parent metal so you only need to use enough rivets (or screws, pins, etc) to hold the components in place during silver soldering to achieve maximum strength.  Otherwise, you've done your homework, a very nice looking job so far.


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## johnnyo (Nov 20, 2012)

Well Harry, I simply riveted, hope I can seal all those bad boys come solder time.:fan:


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## GWRdriver (Nov 21, 2012)

If you solder as well as you build, and have enough heat (and flux), it should be a piece o' cake.


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## johnnyo (Dec 26, 2012)

I finally got around to model work and this is some of my accomplishments. I worked out a sight glass and plumbing for it, after changing course in mid stream on it a couple times. I wanted a valve line up to allow blow down and found some nice 1/4" valves and unions at A&K locomotive. The sight glass is made up of 3/32" braze rod with 3-48 nuts and o-rings fitted in block ends.I made up a burner tube with a spiral array of galloway tubes, 6 each, thought it might have less flow ressistance given the two pass flue design. I used the white harris flux and stat-silv 56 this time with better results. I did a leak check with blanked off ends and 100 psi air. I had a couple visual indications but a leak turned up where none were visible. I fitted a banjo style buying port into the back tube sheet for a super heater and ran that into a cartridge style stop valve in dry back area. Sorry if this is a little long winded.
Johnny O


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## gus (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi Johnnyo,
Very fine and superb workmanship and finishing.Please advise design and working pressure? Shell plate thickness and shell plate thickness and material specs. We could run a calculation to ensure thickness is adequate with the material used.
The AMDSC CODE Part I would be useful as reference material.

Hi Cogsy,please chip in.


Gus.


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## johnnyo (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi Gus
I love fishing myself, what are you holding there? I surf fish new jersey and the outer banks but this jan. I'm heading to fort lauderdale with the wife for my 50th b-day. Will try to get some surf fishing in too. Anyway, All the copper tube used in the boiler is type K plumbing grade, not sure of exact make up. I prefer to over engineer like nasa so I'm failsafe. The shell O.D. is 4.125 and the tube sheets are formed from a flattened sheet of same tube at .125 thick. The burner tube is 1.625 O.D. and flue tubes are 3/8". I put 4 phos.bronze stays in with 1/4-40 collars threaded on ends. I also plan on flaring both ends of the 3/8 tubes. The working pressure is below 75 psi as that is the approx. set point of the safety. I'm thinking 40 - 60 psi? I haven't figured out my burner yet, leaning towards gas fired ceramic style like the Macsteam burners. I built the pmr vertical boiler and mounted a propane burner in the firebox to get up enough steam for the Cygnet royal 3 cyl. rad. engine it ran. Much better then the tablets they sell. Great kit build too.
Thanks
Johnny O


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## gus (Dec 27, 2012)

johnnyo said:


> Hi Gus
> I love fishing myself, what are you holding there? I surf fish new jersey and the outer banks but this jan. I'm heading to fort lauderdale with the wife for my 50th b-day. Will try to get some surf fishing in too. Anyway, All the copper tube used in the boiler is type K plumbing grade, not sure of exact make up. I prefer to over engineer like nasa so I'm failsafe. The shell O.D. is 4.125 and the tube sheets are formed from a flattened sheet of same tube at .125 thick. The burner tube is 1.625 O.D. and flue tubes are 3/8". I put 4 phos.bronze stays in with 1/4-40 collars threaded on ends. I also plan on flaring both ends of the 3/8 tubes. The working pressure is below 75 psi as that is the approx. set point of the safety. I'm thinking 40 - 60 psi? I haven't figured out my burner yet, leaning towards gas fired ceramic style like the Macsteam burners. I built the pmr vertical boiler and mounted a propane burner in the firebox to get up enough steam for the Cygnet royal 3 cyl. rad. engine it ran. Much better then the tablets they sell. Great kit build too.
> Thanks
> Johnny O



Hi Johnny,

By chance if you happen to drop Singapore,will take you out for a spin and beer and if the fish bites. I put in Fish Attracting Device. Three months ago and some fish came. Bought an Albin 28 with 300hp engine and does a top speed of 24 knots but guzzles diesel. Cruising at 15 knots best fuel economy.


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## johnnyo (Dec 28, 2012)

Got busy in shop after fire warmed it up a bit. Burner tube had one leak in test rig but passed after touch up. Used 100 psi air w/snoop. Steam dome soldered up nice, used the black Harris flux after thinning it out with water. Mounted dome with black flux and .005 the. braze ribbon. Used stay-silv 56 around rivets on inside. The cartridge valve with a Ti. valve stem and sight glass are shown waiting patiently for installation, off to the shop.


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## johnnyo (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi, managed to get both tube sheets and burner tube soldered in after fixing wife's dishwasher. Membrane buttons failed in panel, I'll take a machine with hard wired switches over these anyway. A lot easier then keeping the heat up on this boiler though. Working it on top of the wood stove helped. I used the black Harris flux again and placed segments of the 56 stay-silv on the back tube sheet and melted it into joint. It should be ok to use the Easy-Flo solder on the rest now.


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## gus (Dec 30, 2012)

Looking Great. Brazing Good.


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## johnnyo (Dec 30, 2012)

Finally finished last piece, Used PMR's low temp solder and harris stay clean flux on flue tubes, stays, bushings and rivets. Will run Hydro test after bushings are made for blank off. Hey Gus, you might recognize this name plate from my past work experiences.


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## gus (Dec 31, 2012)

I worked on XLEs. Between my Aussie Boss and me we captured all the major shipyards with XLEs. Every yard had two 500hp x 6.6kv XLE compressors. WOnderful machines they run forever.The screw compressors took over for ease of installation but they suffer from customer neglect and infrequent oil change. A new screw air end cost a fortune. However today with computerised surveillance,these machines will operated for a long time.

Thanks for posting the nameplate.Johnny.Where were you based? I designed and packaged the Indian ESVs in 1970s and took away orders from BroomWade and AtlasCopco etc. The biggest ESV package built was the 100hp ESV 12x9.


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## Hilmar (Dec 31, 2012)

Johnny O, What is the reason to use some times the white and other times the black flux ?
Hilmar


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## johnnyo (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi Gus
I'm in Philadelphia area, worked in fossil plants that had XLE'S from 1950 thru 1985? I think. We had four at our eddystone station and scrapped two for an Atlas Copco turbine style and sullair. I kept an access door for cast iron material and cut out the raised I/R lettering to hang on shop wall. An I/R field Tech. in Windsor once told me they were the cadillac of I/R's line, last one made around 1994.

Hi Hilmar
The reason for black flux is it holds up under longer times at higher temps then the white flux. Used it on the larger copper joints as they take more effort to maintain a wicking temp. for the 56 stay-silv. The white might have cooked out before achieving success. I also read here about its use on most joints you would use the standard white flux with good results. I only used it on carbides before trying it out on this boiler. It did work out well as I seemed to have to hold a glowing red color at times to make solder flow.


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## johnnyo (Jan 1, 2013)

Got this late christmas present, now need to cut circles out for heater. Will have to experiment a bit, plan on using it for ceramic insert in gas boiler burner. It's from a MrBuddy heater, someone suggested using these so I ordered one. Have plugs to make first for hydro test but this gives me something to think about.


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## gus (Jan 1, 2013)

johnnyo said:


> Hi Gus
> I'm in Philadelphia area, worked in fossil plants that had XLE'S from 1950 thru 1985? I think. We had four at our eddystone station and scrapped two for an Atlas Copco turbine style and sullair. I kept an access door for cast iron material and cut out the raised I/R lettering to hang on shop wall. An I/R field Tech. in Windsor once told me they were the cadillac of I/R's line, last one made around 1994.
> 
> Hi Hilmar
> The reason for black flux is it holds up under longer times at higher temps then the white flux. Used it on the larger copper joints as they take more effort to maintain a wicking temp. for the 56 stay-silv. The white might have cooked out before achieving success. I also read here about its use on most joints you would use the standard white flux with good results. I only used it on carbides before trying it out on this boiler. It did work out well as I seemed to have to hold a glowing red color at times to make solder flow.



XLEs since 1990 are made in IR Ahmedabad. They were also made in IR Milan,Italy.My Indian Boss has the foresight. The Indian Market prefers recipe machines.
The Indian CNC Machine Centres used to machine XLEs.Gus stood here for hours enthralled by the huge Machine Centre.


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## Hilmar (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi johnnyo,  Thanks for the replay. Have to find a place where to get the black flux in NY State.
Hilmar


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## johnnyo (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi Folks
I had a few rivets leak with an air test at 110 psi and went after them with silver bright to caulk em up. Afterwards I plugged and filled it with water and pressed it up to 180 psi with no leaks. So far so good, I went ahead with super heater coil and stack assembly for now. Working up burner design now.
Thanks
John


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## gus (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi Johnnyo.

Would love to see your burner design and burner lighted up to build steam.Looking at the chimney flue,Can guess your bolier is twin pass for fuel efficiency.With the superheaters in place,efficiency would be higher. Studied Steam 50 years ago and all forgotten.I get mixed up with Enthalpy and Entropy. Spent hours pouring over steam chart to do my student assigment.

Build some burners myself but I am really in the kindergarten stage. Machine my own gas nozzles.  0.5 mm jet hole is nail biting when drilling them. I use canned LPG. Propane had to get here in Singapore.

Would love to see video of boiler feeding steam to run steam engine.


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## johnnyo (Jan 11, 2013)

Hi Gus
I had a few small leaks in rivets and burner tube in dryback area. These sealed up nicely with staybright and stay clear flux. Super heater coil needs a better thread sealant before I install and check again. It needs soft copper gaskets on banjo fitting faces instead of garlock. The boiler held 250 psi for 15 min. though 200 was probably adaquit. Will work on mounting bracket and burner fabrication after vacation. Have a nice design by Sandy C I might try to adapt to this boiler. Used a ralston hand pump which can go up to 3k psi. Very nice, safe way to hydro a model boiler, had to clean out a grease film applied inside internals from manufacturer though. No engine made yet Gus, you'll have to wait.


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## johnnyo (Jun 19, 2014)

Bout time I matched this boiler to a steam engine. I started playing around with the SaitoV4 design. I figured out the valve design thanks to some pics posted on flicker. I thank the person who took the time to disassemble and photograph this fine engine. Still not sure why Saito would discontinue it. I got this far and now I need to go back and redesign my valve head and ports to open them up a bit more. It currently has .5 bore x .562 stroke. I'm using .125 thk. Ti. For rods with sealed roller bearings in case and big end of rods. I will post other pics I have and progress as it happens.
Thanks
Johnny O


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## johnnyo (Mar 14, 2015)

Well it's been a while and I finally caught up to my DraftSight work on this engine. Made a bunch of changes along the way. I'll put up pics of its progress. This is were Itstands now nearly finished. I need to fabricate the valve linkage next.


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## johnnyo (Mar 14, 2015)

Found my pictures so I'll put em up now. These are the parts I have so far. The pistons in photo have two o-rings but I made new ones with a single teflon piston ring with a silicone o-ring expander underneath. Bearings are sealed type with an open crankcase at bottom to expel any water that leaks by pistons.Valve movement is provided by link rods with hole patterns in them at back of pic. The bronze spools move back and forth off bell crank motion imparted by eccentric driven link rods. Throttle and forward/Rev. accomplished by rotating valve sleeve. All similar to Saitos V4PR but for the round crankcase and different valve porting method. I still need the valve linkage rod and exhaust end fittings. More to come .


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## johnnyo (Mar 14, 2015)

Found these showing valve linkage and assembly on shaft eccentric. The cylinders have an o-ring seated in a groove at top and a lagging cover not shown covers them up. I might try insulating the cylinders inside lagging and some more on the supply manifold.


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## gus (Mar 21, 2015)

Hi Johnnyo,
Will steal time to build same boiler. That will be after completing the Howell V-2 Gas Engine in three to four months.


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