# Lathe Moving Dolly



## Brian Rupnow (Jul 11, 2020)

This is going to be a new, short term project. Thursday my lathe broke down--something electrical. It is a heavy lathe, weighing about 400 pounds. I managed to move the lathe and the cabinets it is mounted on from my machine shop, thru my office, out into my main garage, where I unbolted the lathe from the cabinets and used my cherry picker engine hoist to lift it into the bed of my truck. I moved it using a tow rope, my truck, and a terrified wife who stood in the office and screamed STOP whenever the lathe was about to crash into anything---the tow rope went thru a few doorways and around a few corners. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Darwin Award or not. I survived. Wife survived. Lathe survived. Sometime this week the lathe will be repaired and I will have to pick it up and repeat all of the above, only in reverse. I have just inventoried all of the scrap bits of angle bedframe, wheel casters, and heavy lumber in my various storage spots. I am going to build a heavy duty Dolly to mount the lathe on and roll the damned thing from my truck back into my machine shop. The Dolly will be about 1/4" higher than the cabinets that the lathe sets on so it can be slid from the dolly onto the cabinets---no lifting required. If I live as long as my mother, who is 100 years old, probably sooner or later I may have to move the lathe again.---Stay tuned!!!


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 11, 2020)

There is a back story to this. Five or six years ago when I bought this lathe new, I brought it home from the store in my truck, off-loaded it, tried it out. It performed very well. I was a lot fatter and wimpier five or six years ago, so I hired "professional machinery movers" to move it from my main garage into my machine shop. Two huge men arrived, picked up the lathe, carried it into my machine shop.--and charged me $500. It took them all of 10 minutes to move the lathe. I'm a lot trimmer and in better overall health now, and I wasn't going to pay anybody to move the lathe. I don't want wheels on my lathe cabinets. the cabinets do not have leveling feet. It costs me nothing to make the dolly, and I will keep I around until I die or get sent to "the home".


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## tornitore45 (Jul 12, 2020)

I am sure there is a reason, but being "something electrical" why could not be fixed on situ.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 12, 2020)

I don't do electrical. I put in  new fuse, check the wall outlet for power, and push the thermal safety overload reset on the motor if I can find it. If it's not one of those three, then I'm , euchred.


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## bazmak (Jul 12, 2020)

Easier to move an electrician to the lathe rather than vice versa surely


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 12, 2020)

So--As I said, I will build a lathe transporting dolly with materials I have on hand. Small casters are from a moving crane I built about 25 years ago, then cut up and salvaged the material. Main body is 2" x 10" spruce, angles are old bedframe angles, and the two larger wheels and axle are off my handcart (borrowed) for the occasion. The red rectangle is the footprint of the lathe. The top of the dolly will be 3/4" higher than the cabinets that the lathe sets on. Lathe will be bolted to that top plank during transport. Steerable casters are 2 1/2" diameter. Larger wheels are 9 1/2" diameter pneumatic. Headstock end of lathe, which is by far the heaviest will set over these 9 1/2" wheels. I would have made the entire dolly much shorter and closer to the ground for stability, but my cherrypicker hoist will not fit into my machine shop. I have a secret weapon to help me with the move---a 180 pound son who works here in Barrie. After the move has been accomplished I will dismantle this dolly and band everything together and store it in case it is needed again some time. Thank you to everyone who responded to my post.----Brian


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## bazmak (Jul 13, 2020)

As always you do the job properly,with lots of thought and not cutting corners


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## BillC (Jul 13, 2020)

Brian, I feel your pain... We must move our home machine shop a distance of about 30 miles and I'm agonizing. I'm usually a DIY person but this will not be one of those. My largest lathe weighs a bit over 2300 lbs. One milling machine weighs about the same but for some reason I'm not as alarmed about moving it as I am the lathe. I have been putting this off for about three months now and am going through 'machine shop withdrawals' because my projects are on hold and I'm basically parallelized without my shop. This must be done by pros but unfortunately I'm also quite miserly too. Got to do it though - see no shortcuts. My steam locomotive is also just sitting in that same shop..about 1200lbs worth.
Bill


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## willray (Jul 13, 2020)

Make dolly much, much wider, consider non-pneumatic tires:  400+ lbs on top of that, with pneumatic tires that _will_ be squishy with a load, and you're just begging for a tip-over.  This is not hypothetical.

Consider instead using your engine-hoist to lower it down to a floor-level dolly, roll it along nice and low, and raise it again at the end of the journey.  Yes, I know your engine hoist won't fit in your shop.  Raise it from your floor-level dolly back up to cabinet height by playing reverse-Jenga with thin wood blocks.  2x4 at the maximum, plywood preferably.  You're almost certainly strong enough to lift one end of the lathe 3/4 inch at a time, while wife stuffs another block under.  If you're not, 3/4 of an inch remains in the range of what can be done with a pry-bar.

If you absolutely _must_ work with a cart as you've designed it, add solid outriggers that stick out wider than your wheels, and that just barely clear the ground with the cart loaded.  That way if it starts to tip, the outrigger will stub into the floor and give you a bit of a safety margin.

Will Ray


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## willray (Jul 13, 2020)

BillC said:


> Brian, I feel your pain... We must move our home machine shop a distance of about 30 miles and I'm agonizing. I'm usually a DIY person but this will not be one of those. My largest lathe weighs a bit over 2300 lbs.



2300 lbs is entirely doable for DIY.  Get yourself a pallet jack - you'll soon find it's your best friend.   Jack the lathe up 6 inches, and lag it to a couple 6x6 timbers running cross-wise, say 1.5 feet wider than the lathe bed, more if you can afford the width.  Pallet jack under the balance point and Bob's your uncle.  If you've got to go the other way, 2 pallet jacks is still cheaper than riggers.  Engine hoist will get you on and off a trailer, or, if it's a tilt-bed, a couple 2x runners, some grease and a come-along.

In my opinion, the mill is scarier (it's harder to build a stable footprint under it), unless you go the sane route and pull the overarm for transport.

Will Ray


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## BillC (Jul 13, 2020)

willray said:


> Pallet jack under the balance point and Bob's your uncle.
> 
> Will Ray



Appreciate the advice as I'm sure Brian does too. Your ideas are good but there is another factor that is dominate in my case. I'm recovering from knee replacement surgery - both knees - and I'm not so steady on them yet. Time flies, the wind blew and I'm not going to risk my equipment just to accomplish a DIY.
Bill


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## packrat (Jul 13, 2020)

Brian Rupnow and billC
I hate to hear about lathes face planting and braking all the hand wheels, its traumatizing so be careful with your move its also dangerous..


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## BillC (Jul 13, 2020)

packrat said:


> Brian Rupnow and billC
> I hate to hear about lathes face planting and braking all the hand wheels, its traumatizing so be careful with your move its also dangerous..


NIGHTMARE!!


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## willray (Jul 13, 2020)

BillC said:


> Appreciate the advice as I'm sure Brian does too. Your ideas are good but there is another factor that is dominate in my case. I'm recovering from knee replacement surgery - both knees - and I'm not so steady on them yet. Time flies, the wind blew and I'm not going to risk my equipment just to accomplish a DIY.



If you have physical limitations that cause _you_ to be one of the significant random variables in the process, then you gotta do what you gotta do to protect you.   With a bit of care, you can make the risk to the equipment pretty much nil, but breaking _you_ is not an option.

I will say, the more you do it, the easier it seems.  The first time I moved a 1200lb mill (a little-bitty Nichols), I was pretty much terrified of the process.  I'm stilly mighty respectful of the fact that even a 1200lb machine can squash me plenty flat.  But having moved considerably heavier stuff around quite a bit since, I now know and trust my rigging and equipment a lot better, and it's easier to see what things I really _need_ to worry about, and what things are just distractions.

You _can_ make your lathe essentially tip-proof, if you choose.  Whether you can make the process of moving it _you_ proof however is a decision only you can make.

Best of luck with your move - if you were closer to the Ohio side of Virginia, I'd come over and move stuff for you.  After a fashion, rigging stuff gets kind of fun.

Will Ray


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## willray (Jul 13, 2020)

willray said:


> ... lag it to a couple 6x6 timbers running cross-wise, say 1.5 feet wider than the lathe bed...



Correction - I meant to say 1.5 feet wider on both sides, than the lathe base...


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## Richard Hed (Jul 13, 2020)

BillC said:


> Brian, I feel your pain... We must move our home machine shop a distance of about 30 miles and I'm agonizing. I'm usually a DIY person but this will not be one of those. My largest lathe weighs a bit over 2300 lbs. One milling machine weighs about the same but for some reason I'm not as alarmed about moving it as I am the lathe. I have been putting this off for about three months now and am going through 'machine shop withdrawals' because my projects are on hold and I'm basically parallelized without my shop. This must be done by pros but unfortunately I'm also quite miserly too. Got to do it though - see no shortcuts. My steam locomotive is also just sitting in that same shop..about 1200lbs worth.
> Bill


I thimk you may needs to seeks counselling.


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## Richard Hed (Jul 13, 2020)

willray said:


> 2300 lbs is entirely doable for DIY.  Get yourself a pallet jack - you'll soon find it's your best friend.   Jack the lathe up 6 inches, and lag it to a couple 6x6 timbers running cross-wise, say 1.5 feet wider than the lathe bed, more if you can afford the width.  Pallet jack under the balance point and Bob's your uncle.  If you've got to go the other way, 2 pallet jacks is still cheaper than riggers.  Engine hoist will get you on and off a trailer, or, if it's a tilt-bed, a couple 2x runners, some grease and a come-along.
> 
> In my opinion, the mill is scarier (it's harder to build a stable footprint under it), unless you go the sane route and pull the overarm for transport.
> 
> Will Ray


Moving a mill is not too difficult:  get some ordinary iron pipe, about 3/4 or 1", 3 pieces, and put two at a time under the foot.  roll the mill and use the 3rd piece to place under the foot as it needs.  I have done this several times.  However, getting the mill UP onto a truck or what ever is a different problem.  I used an incline plane and a come along.


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## packrat (Jul 13, 2020)

"I think you may needs to seeks counselling."

Funny


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## Richard Hed (Jul 13, 2020)

BillC said:


> NIGHTMARE!!


Well, if you lived in a reasonalbe place, Like the Soviet of Washington, I could help you, but as you live clear across the country, forget it.  HOw about the space concerns in your new place?


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## denn (Jul 13, 2020)

My first lathe was a 11" Sheldon, they loaded it. When I got home, I'm looking at this and thinking how I'm I going to get it off.
Well, I got the fire wood blocking, stacked the wood the height of the bed of the truck.
Got 2 planks and put them under the lathe and slid it back 1/2" by 1/2" till the plank and lathe was on the wood.
Then took the wood out piece by piece, till it was on the driveway. Then put pipe under it and rolled in the basement. 
I thought there has to be another way. I got 3 long pipe to make a tripod, then used a come-along. A pickup would fit under, much later I got a used pallet jack to move the equipment. I have just about everything on 4x4's so I can move it. The Excello mill, about 3000lb. was the heaviest.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 13, 2020)

And now you know how I spent my day. Everything was material which I had on hand. I haven't heard back from the lathe repair people yet, but whenever they get it fixed I will be able to move the lathe back into my machine shop, with the help of my son.  That beats the heck out of the $500 I paid "professional machinery movers" the first time the lathe moved from my garage to my machine shop.


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## teeleevs (Jul 13, 2020)

willray said:


> 2300 lbs is entirely doable for DIY.  Get yourself a pallet jack - you'll soon find it's your best friend.   Jack the lathe up 6 inches, and lag it to a couple 6x6 timbers running cross-wise, say 1.5 feet wider than the lathe bed, more if you can afford the width.  Pallet jack under the balance point and Bob's your uncle.  If you've got to go the other way, 2 pallet jacks is still cheaper than riggers.  Engine hoist will get you on and off a trailer, or, if it's a tilt-bed, a couple 2x runners, some grease and a come-along.
> 
> In my opinion, the mill is scarier (it's harder to build a stable footprint under it), unless you go the sane route and pull the overarm for transport.
> 
> Will Ray


I'm with Will here, I have dropped a lathe and the end result was not pretty, mount it on a plank roll it along on short pieces of pipe, once in place find the balance point and jenga it up,making sure that backup timbers are out further towards the ends.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 13, 2020)

*For bench lathe or mill a left table is good way.
it is easy and the table can be use for other projects.









						1000 lb. Capacity Hydraulic Table Cart
					

Amazing deals on this 1000Lb Hydraulic Table Cart at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com
				




Dave*


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## awake (Jul 13, 2020)

SmithDoor said:


> *For bench lathe or mill a left table is good way.
> it is easy and the table can be use for other projects.
> 
> 
> ...



Dave, would a right table work instead?


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## willray (Jul 13, 2020)

awake said:


> Dave, would a right table work instead?



Nope, right tables refuse to work with tools that went wrong.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 13, 2020)

The lift table goes up and down.
So you adjust the height of tool. 
This type of table was call a die lift table too.

Dave 



willragyy said:


> Nope, right tables refuse to work with tools that went wrong.


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## BWMSBLDR1 (Jul 13, 2020)

Fpr a 30 mile move consider getting a price from a tow truck. A friend had a Bridgeport mill moved across town (~30 miles) for $50. The tow truck just put slings around the mill, lifted it up, and rigged antisway cables to steady it. Set it down at the shop door!  Bill in Boulder CO USA


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## kwoodhands (Jul 14, 2020)

tornitore45 said:


> I am sure there is a reason, but being "something electrical" why could not be fixed on situ.


I have a similar problem. Motor and capacitors were tested by a motor shop, tested good. Problem was GFI pops when trying to start lathe, breaker does not pop. Broke the start switch trying to re-install it. Buy new switch, hire electrician. He worked for at least two hours , either the forward/ reverse switch is bad or the motor. Ordered new switch this afternoon. 
No way in hades I'm going to move the lathe out of the shop. Just to remove the motor I had to raise the lathe with my shop crane. Bottom bolts on motor frame can not be accessed unless the lathe is at least 6" high so a wrench can turn. 
While I'm waiting for the switch to arrive I decide to put the belts back on. The cogged timing belt is tough to install. Grizzly says in their manual to loosen the motor bolts, raise the motor and install timing belt. I did not want to raise the lathe again as it involved too much work. Backsplash, motor cover, and digital readouts have to be removed first. Instead I removed the upper pulley which is bolted to a steel plate I refer to as a banjo. The pulley shaft goes in a slotted hole, all I need to do is lengthen the slot so the pulley distance between the upper and lower cog wheels is a bit shorter . Probably will make the slot 1/2" longer. When I re-install the pulley will be set back to center of the slot giving me about 1/4" deflection.
Hopefully the switch is the problem or I will have to remove the motor again.
mike


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## willray (Jul 14, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> I have a similar problem. Motor and capacitors were tested by a motor shop, tested good. Problem was GFI pops when trying to start lathe, breaker does not pop.



Has this motor ever worked on this outlet with the GFI?  If not, there's a reasonable chance you're chasing a ghost.  Non-resistive loads can fool GFCI breakers and cause nuisance trips.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 14, 2020)

No gfi on that circuit. I tried two things.--Checked that the circuit was okay and that the breaker hadn't tripped. Checked the glass fuse on the front of the machine, and I couldn't access the motor because the lathe sheet metal has to be dismantled before you can get to the motor to check the thermal overload button cut out. Lath was up against the wall so I had to move it out anyways to check the thermal overload.


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## willray (Jul 14, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> No gfi on that circuit...



Now I'm confused - what GFI is popping?   And was the lathe previously working, plugged in in the same place?

amended : never mind, I can't read


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## awake (Jul 14, 2020)

willray said:


> Now I'm confused - what GFI is popping?   And was the lathe previously working, plugged in in the same place?



Two different conversations going on here - kwoodhands mentioned problems with a GFCI; Brian is having a different issue.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 14, 2020)

Trying to find why the GFI is tripping may  time find.

1) Bad wire 
2) Dirt motor
3) Bad winding in motor
4) Bad switch
5) Ground wire use for power

Good luck
Dave


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## willray (Jul 14, 2020)

awake said:


> Two different conversations going on here - kwoodhands mentioned problems with a GFCI; Brian is having a different issue.



Gah - "Awake" would not be me!  Insufficient caffeine this morning - that's got to be it...


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 14, 2020)

The lathe is repaired and today I fetched it home (more later). This picture shows the lathe freshly unloaded from my truck and bolted to the dolly.  It is still hooked to my cherrypicker hoist in this picture. The cart worked perfectly, and the lathe is back in it's home in the machine shop. I never did get my son to help. He works two jobs and couldn't come by until Thursday and I couldn't wait. Yes, it was top heavy, but I knew it would be. The dolly was very stable and when I pulled/pushed it from my main garage, thru my office and into my machine shop, it was a fairly simple move to slide it off the dolly onto the cabinets it mounts on.


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## willray (Jul 14, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> The lathe is repaired and today I fetched it home (more later). This picture shows the lathe freshly unloaded from my truck and bolted to the dolly.  It is still hooked to my cherrypicker hoist in this picture. The cart worked perfectly...



Delighted to hear it - all's well that ends well!

So - does it work, and did they tell you what they needed to repair?


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## SmithDoor (Jul 14, 2020)

Looks great

Dave



Brian Rupnow said:


> The lathe is repaired and today I fetched it home (more later). This picture shows the lathe freshly unloaded from my truck and bolted to the dolly.  It is still hooked to my cherrypicker hoist in this picture. The cart worked perfectly, and the lathe is back in it's home in the machine shop. I never did get my son to help. He works two jobs and couldn't come by until Thursday and I couldn't wait. Yes, it was top heavy, but I knew it would be. The dolly was very stable and when I pulled/pushed it from my main garage, thru my office and into my machine shop, it was a fairly simple move to slide it off the dolly onto the cabinets it mounts on.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 14, 2020)

So--Here's the "rest of the story". One picture is of the gear cover that sets on the end of my lathe to protect my fingers from the gears. Notice the bent bracket at the lower right corner of it. That bent bracket pushes on a switch which disables the electrics on the lathe if the guard is removed. I haven't had that cover off the lathe in more than a year. Somehow---Perhaps metal fatigue? the bracket bent far enough that it no longer pushed on the button, and consequently the lathe stopped right in the middle of a cut. The switch it presses on is right below the gears and is virtually impossible to see unless you stand on your head to look for it. When I left the lathe in Concord at Busy Bee, I told them that my rpm indicator only worked intermittently and please either fix it or replace it, as well as please fix whatever is wrong that I have no power to the lathe. They replaced the rpm indicator, scratched their heads a bit and then found that bending the bracket by hand fixed things so it pushed the button and restored power to the lathe. I either didn't know, or else forgot that switch was even there.They charged two hours labor and the price of the new readout. My bill came to $129. So, they treated me quite honestly I think. They could have told me it needed a new motor and charged me another couple of hundred dollars but they didn't.


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## Ghosty (Jul 14, 2020)

Brian, I think that they look after you well, cheep for a new display and repair, and now know that it is right to use again.


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## Brian Rupnow (Jul 14, 2020)

Everything was going back together perfectly, until I discovered I had lost my nuts!! Maybe a note of explanation is required--the lathe is held to the splash pan and the cabinets below it by six M12 bolts, and the nuts go on the inside of the cabinets. I distinctly remember putting the nuts and a couple of handles "somewhere", but damned if I could remember where. After searching for 20 minutes, I did what I always do in a situation like this.---I called my wife. Now I realize that this conversation could go off on a tangent here, but when I can't find things, my wife usually can. She searched for 10 minutes, and then as I walked by some engine display shelves in my office I spied a Tetley Tea container she gave me a couple of weeks ago to "keep little parts in". I picked it up, took off the lid, and sure enough---There were my nuts.  Just her being in the same room as I am seems to help find things. Now, with my nuts happily found, I am too tired to do anymore tonight. I have to go tomorrow morning and pick up a grandchild for a visit with us. (We have to visit them in rotation because of this horrible Covid stuff.) After I have visited 9 year old Brennen for a while and made a run to the dump with a cubic yard of swarf, I will finish putting things back together and proceed where I left off on my Stephensons Rocket.


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## Robsmith (Jul 15, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> I have a similar problem. Motor and capacitors were tested by a motor shop, tested good. Problem was GFI pops when trying to start lathe, breaker does not pop. Broke the start switch trying to re-install it. Buy new switch, hire electrician. He worked for at least two hours , either the forward/ reverse switch is bad or the motor. Ordered new switch this afternoon.
> No way in hades I'm going to move the lathe out of the shop. Just to remove the motor I had to raise the lathe with my shop crane. Bottom bolts on motor frame can not be accessed unless the lathe is at least 6" high so a wrench can turn.
> While I'm waiting for the switch to arrive I decide to put the belts back on. The cogged timing belt is tough to install. Grizzly says in their manual to loosen the motor bolts, raise the motor and install timing belt. I did not want to raise the lathe again as it involved too much work. Backsplash, motor cover, and digital readouts have to be removed first. Instead I removed the upper pulley which is bolted to a steel plate I refer to as a banjo. The pulley shaft goes in a slotted hole, all I need to do is lengthen the slot so the pulley distance between the upper and lower cog wheels is a bit shorter . Probably will make the slot 1/2" longer. When I re-install the pulley will be set back to center of the slot giving me about 1/4" deflection.
> Hopefully the switch is the problem or I will have to remove the motor again.
> mike


Retired eleco here.. Clothes irons were well known to trip GFi's.  Nothing wrong with the iron after one of those "special technicians" tested them . Still tripping.  I had a look and there was fine lint in the lead connection compartment. ( terminal box) . Blew it out with air and no more problem.   Have a look in all of your terminal boxes.


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## BillC (Jul 15, 2020)

All's well that ends well! Happy for you and your success... My wife has the same unique ability to find what I can't in my mess of a shop with too many projects going at the same time. I'll get frustrated and walk in the house, then a few minutes later she will walk in with the lost item in her hand - "Is this what you're looking for?" 
Strange; entering a conversation here will get a reply that I need counseling. I appreciate that advice... best thing to do is stay away from this place!
BillC


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## RonW (Jul 15, 2020)

Been there! done that! got the bloody T shirt!! Just like everyone of us.
RonW


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## L98fiero (Jul 15, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> After searching for 20 minutes, I did what I always do in a situation like this.---I called my wife.


Annoying, isn't it, you spend a half hour looking for something and when you've nearly given up your wife comes in and in a few minutes finds the item where you put it so you wouldn't lose it?


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## packrat (Jul 15, 2020)

That is funny My wife has the same unique ability to find stuff...do not know why that is..??


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## Bill Lawson (Jul 15, 2020)

Brian, I seen to have the same problem locating misplaced things. I never realized that I was forgetful.
Bill


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## werowance (Jul 15, 2020)

Brian Rupnow said:


> Everything was going back together perfectly, until I discovered I had lost my nuts!! Maybe a note of explanation is required--the lathe is held to the splash pan and the cabinets below it by six M12 bolts, and the nuts go on the inside of the cabinets. I distinctly remember putting the nuts and a couple of handles "somewhere", but damned if I could remember where. After searching for 20 minutes, I did what I always do in a situation like this.---I called my wife. Now I realize that this conversation could go off on a tangent here, but when I can't find things, my wife usually can. She searched for 10 minutes, and then as I walked by some engine display shelves in my office I spied a Tetley Tea container she gave me a couple of weeks ago to "keep little parts in". I picked it up, took off the lid, and sure enough---There were my nuts.  Just her being in the same room as I am seems to help find things. Now, with my nuts happily found, I am too tired to do anymore tonight. I have to go tomorrow morning and pick up a grandchild for a visit with us. (We have to visit them in rotation because of this horrible Covid stuff.) After I have visited 9 year old Brennen for a while and made a run to the dump with a cubic yard of swarf, I will finish putting things back together and proceed where I left off on my Stephensons Rocket.




lol,  everyone says my wife keeps my nuts in her purse.


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## kwoodhands (Jul 16, 2020)

Robsmith said:


> Retired eleco here.. Clothes irons were well known to trip GFi's.  Nothing wrong with the iron after one of those "special technicians" tested them . Still tripping.  I had a look and there was fine lint in the lead connection compartment. ( terminal box) . Blew it out with air and no more problem.   Have a look in all of your terminal boxes.




Electrician came over Monday afternoon.  He installed the new start switch, tripped the GFI again. He tested almost everything. It appears to him that their is an intermittent short in the forward/ reverse switch. Ordered new switch. He also ran an extension cord into the house on a non- GFI outlet . Motor tuned a couple of times and tripped the breaker. All the terminal boxes etc . tested good, capacitors also good.
Hopefully the new switch fixes the problem. At first he thought it was the motor. I told him where I took the motor to be tested as I originally thought the short was there. He has complete confidence in this establishment so the forward/reverse switch is the only thing left.
mike


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## jwills8606 (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm new here, but I gather this is mostly a UK or European forum, so the electrical system there is likely considerably different from the US.  Nonetheless, GFCIs here work on a very simple principle:  measure the current in each leg of the power wire, and if it's not equal, then there is a leak somewhere (possibly through the user!).  (Of course, they also trip with overcurrent, like a regular breaker.)  The GFCI part doesn't trip with shorts, but the breaker does, and you can tell which it is by whether the red button is in the tripped position.  My guess, if it's the GFCI, is that there is a break in insulation somewhere - usually in a motor winding on older machines - that is letting a small leakage current through to the frame.  These machines are fairly simple electrically, and if you have a good meter, you might try disconnecting both power leads AT THE MOTOR and measuring resistance from each to the motor frame.  It should be near-infinite.  I would say anything less than about 50k Ohms would be suspect.  

Just a shot in the dark, but if the power source/switch/wiring beyond the on-off switch is new/good, then there's not a lot left.


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## willray (Jul 16, 2020)

jwills8606 said:


> ... if you have a good meter, you might try disconnecting both power leads AT THE MOTOR and measuring resistance from each to the motor frame.  It should be near-infinite.  I would say anything less than about 50k Ohms would be suspect...



Anything less than Megaohms is suspect, and it needs to be measured at operating voltage or higher to be useful for qualifying the motor insulation.  Typical ohmmeters/multimeters are inadequate to the task.  The job requires a device that is colloquially known as a "Megger" (though like Kleenex, there is actually a Megger that is literally named Megger also).

That being said, if we don't yet know whether the lathe/motor _ever_ worked on that GFI circuit, there's a 95% chance that we're still chasing ghosts here.  Even if it _did_ work on that GFI before, GFIs go bad quite easily.  Nuisance GFI trips are ridiculously common.

If your electrician was worth half his salt, he could have bypassed the switch and verified whether the GFI tripped with the switch out of the picture.  Additionally diagnostic, if you can isolate the motor from everything else - separate it from the rest of the late and put it on a nice dry piece of wood - you can try starting it on the GFI circuit with the ground disconnected.  A GFCI device's primary mode of operation is detecting imbalance between the current "going into" a device on one current-carrying-conductor, and the current "coming out" of the device on the other current-carrying-conductor.  They don't need the ground hooked up to detect this.  If you isolate the device such that the wires are the /only/ paths into and out of the device, and the GFCI still trips, it's tripping _solely_ because inductive loads _naturally_ generate situations that look like current imbalances that have nothing whatsoever to do with actual ground faults.


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## awake (Jul 16, 2020)

werowance said:


> lol,  everyone says my wife keeps my nuts in her purse.



Errr ... that sounds rather painful!


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## kwoodhands (Jul 17, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> Electrician came over Monday afternoon.  He installed the new start switch, tripped the GFI again. He tested almost everything. It appears to him that their is an intermittent short in the forward/ reverse switch. Ordered new switch. He also ran an extension cord into the house on a non- GFI outlet . Motor tuned a couple of times and tripped the breaker. All the terminal boxes etc . tested good, capacitors also good.
> Hopefully the new switch fixes the problem. At first he thought it was the motor. I told him where I took the motor to be tested as I originally thought the short was there. He has complete confidence in this establishment so the forward/reverse switch is the only thing left.
> mike





willray said:


> Anything less than Megaohms is suspect, and it needs to be measured at operating voltage or higher to be useful for qualifying the motor insulation.  Typical ohmmeters/multimeters are inadequate to the task.  The job requires a device that is colloquially known as a "Megger" (though like Kleenex, there is actually a Megger that is literally named Megger also).
> 
> That being said, if we don't yet know whether the lathe/motor _ever_ worked on that GFI circuit, there's a 95% chance that we're still chasing ghosts here.  Even if it _did_ work on that GFI before, GFIs go bad quite easily.  Nuisance GFI trips are ridiculously common.
> 
> If your electrician was worth half his salt, he could have bypassed the switch and verified whether the GFI tripped with the switch out of the picture.  Additionally diagnostic, if you can isolate the motor from everything else - separate it from the rest of the late and put it on a nice dry piece of wood - you can try starting it on the GFI circuit with the ground disconnected.  A GFCI device's primary mode of operation is detecting imbalance between the current "going into" a device on one current-carrying-conductor, and the current "coming out" of the device on the other current-carrying-conductor.  They don't need the ground hooked up to detect this.  If you isolate the device such that the wires are the /only/ paths into and out of the device, and the GFCI still trips, it's tripping _solely_ because inductive loads _naturally_ generate situations that look like current imbalances that have nothing whatsoever to do with actual ground faults.


My electrician tried the motor on two different GFI's , shop is split with GFI on half the shop and a another GFI on the other half. Also tried on a non- GFI by running an extension cord from an outlet in the house. Motor worked perfectly for 15+ years on the GFI. .
I will post results when the new F/R switch is installed. Switch has been shipped, not received yet.
Probably will not post til at least Thursday as I will be getting a pacemaker on Wednesday  afternoon.
mike


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## willray (Jul 17, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> My electrician tried the motor on two different GFI's , shop is split with GFI on half the shop and a another GFI on the other half. Also tried on a non- GFI by running an extension cord from an outlet in the house. Motor worked perfectly for 15+ years on the GFI. .



I guess that sounds like you're in the unlucky 5%.    So many people chase equipment problems on GFI circuits when the real problem is the GFI detector/circuit-breaker itself.

The fact that you blew the breaker when plugged in to the house is, interesting...  GFIs don't sense overcurrent.  Your house circuit doesn't sense ground faults.

Did your house breaker pop while the motor was still spooling up, or after it had stabilized at-speed?   If it popped after stabilizing at-speed, you can probably verify that there really is a ground fault by disconnecting the ground, and trying it from your non-GFI house circuit again.

If you try that and it _doesn't_ pop, then the house-breaker pop was (highly likely) due to a high-current short to the chassis, which was being drained by the ground.   If it /still/ pops when you do that, you have something very weird going on. ... beware, if you try that and the breaker does not pop, the chassis is almost certainly live - do not touch!


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## kwoodhands (Jul 17, 2020)

I did not make my post clear, the GFI 
itself popped not the breaker in the house. The breakers in the shop never  flipped . Only the GFI on the receptacle. There , are two separate GFI circuits in the shop. Both pop when the motor starts up.  Same results on the non GFI coming from the house.
Have not received the F/R switch yet. I hope when it is installed it solves the problem.
You asked if the GFI popped when it was spooling up , yes. It also popped the GFI after the motor ran well for up to 30 seconds.  
I will post again with results after the new switch is installed.  Probably not til the end of next week .
I'll be out of commission for a couple of days for minor surgery. 
mike


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## willray (Jul 20, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> I did not make my post clear, the GFI
> itself popped not the breaker in the house. The breakers in the shop never  flipped . Only the GFI on the receptacle. There , are two separate GFI circuits in the shop. Both pop when the motor starts up.  Same results on the non GFI coming from the house...



You seem to have quite the mystery - especially if you're saying that the garage GFIs pop when you're running it on the non-GFI from the house!

Fingers crossed that replacing the switch solves the problem, but even if it doesn't, I'm sure this can be diagnosed and fixed.  Invisible gremlins start to haunt things once much in the way of electronics is involved, but motors and switches are simple enough that they don't show much interest.

At the moment though, you have more important things to do!



> I will post again with results after the new switch is installed.  Probably not til the end of next week .
> I'll be out of commission for a couple of days for minor surgery.



Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
Will


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## packrat (Jul 20, 2020)

At work {I was doing HVAC-R} we had a large machine that was not running right, come to find out the neutral wire was loose that was all it was....
A boiler one time was doing syringe things come to find out the McDonnell Miller Mercury switch was loose on the mount turning the flame off and on,
it was driving me nuts... I am sure you will solves your problem..


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## awake (Jul 21, 2020)

packrat said:


> A boiler one time was doing syringe things ...



Ah, sad that is, when even the boilers are starting to use drugs ...

Okay, I know that was an auto-correct-strike intended to be "strange," but I couldn't resist!


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## packrat (Jul 22, 2020)

Yes awake, Got to use spell check more.....


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## awake (Jul 22, 2020)

Ironically, it is the "spell-check" technology that is causing the problem - or at least, I think auto-correct developed out of spell check. And in any case, as I routinely remind my students, spell check only makes sure the word is spelled correctly; it does nothing to ensure that it is the correct word.


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## packrat (Jul 22, 2020)

Yes I think your right..Are you a teacher.?


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## awake (Jul 22, 2020)

At least some of the time.


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## SmithDoor (Jul 22, 2020)

I have problem with spell check. 
I just do not proof read most post. 
The ones that complain about spelling needs the information the most. But that is what they hang there hat on.

Dave




packrat said:


> Yes I think your right..Are you a teacher.?


9


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## awake (Jul 23, 2020)

SmithDoor said:


> I have problem with spell check.
> I just do not proof read most post.
> The ones that complain about spelling needs the information the most. But that is what they hang there hat on.



Oh, I hope it didn't  sound like I was complaining - on the contrary, I was pleased to have the opportunity to make a feeble attempt at humor. 

According to my wife, _all_ of my attempts at humor are feeble ...


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## kwoodhands (Jul 29, 2020)

willray said:


> You seem to have quite the mystery - especially if you're saying that the garage GFIs pop when you're running it on the non-GFI from the house!
> 
> Fingers crossed that replacing the switch solves the problem, but even if it doesn't, I'm sure this can be diagnosed and fixed.  Invisible gremlins start to haunt things once much in the way of electronics is involved, but motors and switches are simple enough that they don't show much interest.
> 
> ...


Will, thanks for your good thoughts, Had a pacemaker put in last  Wednesday  and came home Thursday afternoon. Feel great, been walking one mile each day . As far as the switch goes I have tried to call/ e-mail the electrician. So far no answer, might be on vacation. He hasn't received payment yet so I will try again tomorrow.
mike


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## willray (Aug 6, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> Will, thanks for your good thoughts, Had a pacemaker put in last  Wednesday  and came home Thursday afternoon. Feel great, been walking one mile each day . As far as the switch goes I have tried to call/ e-mail the electrician. So far no answer, might be on vacation. He hasn't received payment yet so I will try again tomorrow.
> mike



Greetings Mike, I missed that you'd gotten back online.  Hope you're doing well, and I'd love to hear what the eventual resolution of this is!


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## kwoodhands (Aug 13, 2020)

willray said:


> Greetings Mike, I missed that you'd gotten back online.  Hope you're doing well, and I'd love to hear what the eventual resolution of this is!


Better late than never. I was delayed in posting til an hour ago.  Pacemaker went great , no problems at all. Walked 2.2 miles this morning.  Electrician told me after checking everything possible the motor is bad. Removed the motor and took it to another repair shop. Matt from Park  Electric had called before I even got home. I called back and he told me the motor was fried. He also said the first repair shop could not have looked at the motor at all. Ordered new motor and installed it 3 days ago. The motor worked in reverse but not in forward. Did not trip GFI or breaker. Electrician had me up and working in 30 minutes or less.  Most of the delay in posting due to the tropical storm that wiped out power for a week.
The electronic information on the label riveted to the motor was upside down, Scott  took a picture and found the label was slightly different from the original. He swapped a wire or two and I tried the lathe, works perfect now.  Only difference in the motors is the original body was cast iron, new motor is cast aluminum.
Thanks to everyone for their help and concerns
Mike


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## willray (Aug 13, 2020)

kwoodhands said:


> ...Pacemaker went great , no problems at all. Walked 2.2 miles this morning...Most of the delay in posting due to the tropical storm that wiped out power for a week...He swapped a wire or two and I tried the lathe, works perfect now.



Delighted to hear that you, your power, and your lathe are all back up and at it!
Best wishes,
Will


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