# Taps and Dies



## GWRdriver (Jan 25, 2011)

siren  said:
			
		

> One question about "quality" taps. I'm a complete newbie and when I go on the Enco website to buy some taps, I'm completely overwhelmed. Up to now, I've just been picking them up at the hardware store. One choice; not much thought. Don't mean to hijack this topic, but what do you guys use for your taps?


OK let's start a new thread.

Brad,
The first decision to be made is whether to choose carbon steel or HSS. The most common material, at least in the US, is HSS and that's always my choice, unless carbon steel is the only choice available, or in situations where HSS carries and extremely high premium and the expense isn't warranted. The typical reasons for choosing one over the other is that HSS keeps an edge far longer and is less likley to break but is more expensive, and carbon steel tends to be less expensive and if broken can be annealed and drilled or dissolved out. People I know in the USA invariably prefer HSS while historically our British cousins have tended to prefer carbon steel.

As for dies, I think round split adjustable dies are almost the universal choice. I prefer HSS gound thread, for longer life.

I have found myself gradually replacing other styles with single-flute taps, or two flutes at most, HSS ground thread, but not all the thread sizes I need have been available (or economical) in that style. I get better thread finish, longer life, and less breakage with HSS and I also always use a tapping fluid, not a cutting oil, but a proper tapping fluid.

For a long time I always ordered USA-NoName or "1st Quality Import" cutting tools from the usual mailorder suspects (MSC etc) and that would usually get me a very good quality and value from Japan, England, or Europe, but the "quality" heading is gone from the Import column and it's now just "Import" and I haven't been happy with some of the stuff I've gotten. I haven't ordered any taps or dies in a couple of years so I don't know what the quality of "import" (non-US/British) products are at the moment, but I can certainly say I was shocked recently to see the current price of a US-made die in a common machine screw size.


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## shred (Jan 25, 2011)

My thoughts are over here: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=12498.msg135430#msg135430

Summary: 

Enco brand name OSG / Cleveland = Good
Enco "USA" spiral point = OK
Enco "Interstate" / "Import" = OK to Marginal
Harbor Freight HSS = Marginal
Harbor Freight Carbon = Bad


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## kuhncw (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree with Shred. 

I prefer to buy the best HSS taps (OSG/Cleveland, etc) that MSC, Enco, etc have to offer. I don't buy the optional coatings though.

 The cost seems a bit painful, but with care, taps last a long time. If the quality helps prevent breaking a tap in that final hole in a part you've put hours into, the cost doesn't seem so bad.

Regards,

Chuck


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 25, 2011)

If this a case of 'you get what you pay for'. The question is how much do you want-or-need to spend on a 2-56 or 4-40 tap? And how much better are they?

If I owned a commercial shop and had a $50,000 monthly contract to CNC tap a lot of parts with a number of 4-40 taped holes, Then I would buy the best taps available. And I would probably need documentation showing a traceable origin of the tooling used on the job to fulfill the terms of the contract. 

In a home hobby shop most of us will buy an import and get perfectly good results. I have tried lower priced imports and top quality USA taps and to be honest, I can't tell a difference in the quality of the thread produced. If anyone can, please tell me how to do it so that I can check 'my' taps. 

I believe that the problems with import taps (like breakage) are the sole responsibility of the person using them. A rookie (like me) will almost always buy the lowest priced tooling until they have either a perceived or real need for something more expensive. When it breaks its not me, its because its a cheap piece of import cr....

I say, Buy it, try it, and see if you like it. (Here I go with the poetry again). :fan:

-MB


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## kvom (Jan 25, 2011)

The first tap and die set I ever bought was a "Kobalt" brand at Lowes. After breaking a few taps I started buying HSS taps for model-making. I've found that with proper technique (e.g., using a tapping stand or mill spindle to start the tap straight) and use of tapping fluid, they seem to last a long long time.

When I built the Halo engine, it was the first time I'd ever used 2-56 taps. I bought a pack of 10 expecting a lot of breakage. In fact I used one tap for all 100+ holes in that build.

The Chinese round split dies from Enco aren't very good quality, mainly because the adjustment screw is too soft to actually adjust. I still use the ones I have but only for finishing after single-pointing the threads on the lathe.


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 25, 2011)

kvom  said:
			
		

> The Chinese round split dies from Enco aren't very good quality, mainly because the adjustment screw is too soft to actually adjust. I still use the ones I have but only for finishing after single-pointing the threads on the lathe.



I agree with the China made dies being a big disappointment. I used a 3-56 split die the other day and it wouldn't close up enough to produce a thread that any of the different sourced nuts I have would thread on to. Its warped in an open position making pretty much useless. The only way I could produce a usable thread was to clamp down on it very hard with a pair of Vise grip locking pliers. After a few hit and miss trials I got the setting right to re-cut the 5 threaded rods I needed.

The 'special thread' (UNS) size dies like the 1/4-32 that Enco sells are quality and made in Japan.

I need to find a good replacement source for my 3-56 split die.

EDIT: I found these. A little bit on the high side for me!!!

http://catalog.tapcotaps.com/viewitems/dies/special-round-adjustable-dies?

-MB


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## Peter. (Jan 26, 2011)

GWRdriver  said:
			
		

> People I know in the USA invariably prefer HSS while historically our British cousins have tended to prefer carbon steel.



With respect, that's just not true. I'm in my forties and I've always used HSS taps and dies, and I've just inherited my late father's tools last year which includes several dozen taps and dies, and the only ones of those which are carbon steel are very old BSF and BSW ones.

HSS rules this side of the pond too!


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## GWRdriver (Jan 26, 2011)

Peter.  said:
			
		

> With respect, that's just not true. . . .


Peter,
My statement was based upon what I'd seen and read over decades in ME, which was carbon-centric, and then my last large tool purchase (from Tracy Tools - very nice folks) was 12 years ago and at that time what I bought were ex-stoxk in carbon steel. HSS stock was available but spotty (and considerably more expensive) because "carbon is preferred." I have not subscribed to ME, nor ordered from Tracy, in about 12 years so it appears preferences have changed and I'm glad to be brought up to date.


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## ShopShoe (Jan 26, 2011)

GWRdriver,

I have experimented with different taps and dies for decades and still do so. You can't really depend on a whole lot of consistency in any of the low and medium cost "brands" My best taps are some metric "Kromedge" taps sold by Sears years ago and NLA. Who knows who really made them?

I am still learning and I just try to add to my cutting tool collection when I order from vendors like Enco, MSC, KBC, LMS, etc. Currently OSG brand or "USA" from Enco seems to be working well. 

FWIW, I tend to buy more expensive, possibly better taps and dies in smaller sizes.

Also, FWIW: One of these really did help me avoid breaking so many taps:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2571&category=935142539

Regarding Dies: I am slowly converting my collection from Hex dies to the round adjustable ones, once again one, two, or three at a time added to other orders. I also have upgraded the die stocks ( and tap wrenches) and that makes a huge difference in how well the process works by hand. Future Tooling Project is to make die holders for use on the lathe.

Good luck and keep learning,

--ShopShoe


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## Troutsqueezer (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm with MB. When I need a new tap, I'll check the stores closest to me that might sell that size at the cheapest price. I've yet to buy a tap that wouldn't thread a hole the way I wanted it to, no matter how much I paid for it. I guess I'm too much of an amateur/hobbiest to notice the differences but at the same time, here I am with perfectly tapped holes and more money left over for my wife to spend.


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## GWRdriver (Jan 26, 2011)

ShopShoe  said:
			
		

> FWIW, I tend to buy more expensive, possibly better taps and dies in smaller sizes. - ShopShoe


That's my approach also, and I have found that the OSG taps I've had tend to be a very good. I've also had a few absolutely superb taps by Baker. My best buys in small taps have been surplus/NOS USA taps in full boxes on eBay. I've gotten boxes of 12ea for the price of one at retail but buys like that seem to be scarse nowadays.


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## TroyO (Jan 26, 2011)

Hello, my name is Troy and I'm a tap breaker.



I guess quality is relative... to what you are doing, what your experience level is and how often you will be using it. 

I started with a set of Carbon steel taps from an auto parts store where the whole set was like $20. Ummmm.... that's too much of the low end, IMHO. They don't cut very clean and take a lot of torque to make them cut in comparison. They are hard to start and break easy.

Then I got a HSS set from Harbor Freight.... to be honest, they are better than the first set by a long stretch. They do get the job done although I would choose something else for tapping a lot of holes.

After that I needed some metric ones, so I got the Kobalt set from Lowes. Again, they are better than the Harbor Freight ones, but not by as wide a margin as the HF set was over the no-brand carbon ones.

I have bought some off-hand ones from Ace Hardware, no idea what brand but they are a step over the Kobalt ones in general. (In hindsight... maybe Hanson?)

So, I mix and match... I have not tried one of the top end brands, or any of those fancy spiral version, although I will probably get some in my most common sizes when I see them on sale at Enco or something.

What about those cheap taps? They are in a bin labeled "Abusable taps" along with others that have chippped/broken etc. I usually grind the ends off to make "bottoming taps" (After I get started with a regular tap) or grind the threads down to make a "first pass tap" etc. They were cheap enough, and occasionally they get something done for me.

As with most of my tooling... It will meet it's demise because I did something stupid, not because I wore them out, LOL. (Hah.. maybe I should sig that...)


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 26, 2011)

TroyO  said:
			
		

> Hello, my name is Troy and I'm a tap breaker.



 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

Your opening line was great....it made me bust out laughing!

Great post with good detail of your experiences.

-MB


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 26, 2011)

TroyO  said:
			
		

> Hello, my name is Troy and I'm a tap breaker.



 Rof}

I like that. I'm a scrap maker myself (at least one level down).
Or a 'that part is for a different project' maker.
I wonder what other 'ranks' ;D we can come up with.

We're all 'swarf' makers so that don't count.


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## Blogwitch (Jan 27, 2011)

Now a little for the UK contingent.

Still having the carbon tap sets for BA and metric I bought over 30 years ago. They cost a small fortune when purchased, but stood the test of time well, with only several needing replacing during that time. The make, Presto, a UK manufacturer.

Now to modern times. 

Carbon taps & dies, to me, have taken a downhill plunge, no longer the razor sharp and tough taps and dies they used to be, nowadays, especially in the far eastern and cheapo makes, they can cut oversized, undersized, in fact very difficult to get ones to make the correct size. They are really very badly made, I have tried them all over the years.

A little while ago, I decided to sort my sets out completely, and bring my workshop into the 21st century, which meant going over to HSS and higher threading tools.

I had tried all makes when I was purchasing five and ten offs for doing production work, and I will throw away a tap at the slightest squeak, customers demanded perfect threads.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I found the best threading tools I had ever used, stainless is cut just like you would cut brass or ali, and I regularly power cut on the lathe down to 3mm in all materials, perfect results every time.

This is the company.

http://www.tapdie.com/

For singles they look expensive, but when you get to the price breaks, they are normally cheaper than carbon taps and dies.

To me, small taps and dies are one of the staples of a workshop, especially if you are doing a few private jobs occasionally, and over the last year, all my old sets have been replaced, and hopefully, I shouldn't need to buy any more in my lifetime.

A very satisfied customer. In fact, I sent a US friend a couple of their dies to try out, and he was so impressed, he now orders from there.

Just as a side note, I think the tools are made in India, but I don't care where they come from, as long as they do a good job.


Bogs


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## bentprop (Jan 27, 2011)

It's funny how a person's perception changes over time.
I still have a set of what I now know to be carbon taps that my father bought in the early 60's.They were made,shock,horror,in Japan.(ETC,a brand I still see occasionally).Being a cabinetmaker,my father didn't know much about taps 'n dies,so he broke the m3 tap in short order.The box was shoved in a drawer,and forgotten.
Thing is,I still use some of these taps now and then,since I don't have an m5 or m8 hss tap.Taking care to start the tap straight,and the use of tapping fluid,have resulted in perfectly presentable tapped holes.
I have also just bought a BA set online,which I presume to be carbon,and I don't envisage any problems with those.I don't use these all that often anyway,so I'm sure they'll cope.

BTW,Shopshoe,hex die nuts are meant to be used to repair a damaged thread,not cut a new one.I must admit though,that I have used them for that purpose late sunday night,when a project needed to be done.


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## GWRdriver (Jan 27, 2011)

Bogstandard  said:
			
		

> Now a little for the UK contingent. . . . This is the company. http://www.tapdie.com/


I recall their adverts in ME, it's good to have a report on their products.


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## Peter. (Jan 27, 2011)

You know what's funny - my wife returned home today all pleased with herself with a gift for me - a set of *carbon steel* taps & dies . Not very good ones either. 
In fairness to her, the last time she did it, from the same 'cheap' shop, she had picked up a quite nice hss set that I've used many times. These had the same name on the box but nowhere near as good.

Aah well, love her for that! I'll keep them for a time then donate them to someone.


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## mklotz (Jan 27, 2011)

bentprop  said:
			
		

> BTW,Shopshoe,hex die nuts are meant to be used to repair a damaged thread,not cut a new one.



While generally true, there are exceptions to this generalization. For many years Sears sold only solid hexagon dies. I have a set from many years ago. On the infrequent occasions I use them to cut (new) threads, they work just fine.


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 27, 2011)

mklotz  said:
			
		

> While generally true, there are exceptions to this generalization. For many years Sears sold only solid hexagon dies. I have a set from many years ago. On the infrequent occasions I use them to cut (new) threads, they work just fine.



Hi Marv, Your lucky if you have a good set. I bought a big cased 76 piece Craftsman set about 20 years ago. Every time I go to use one of the dies they chip and loose a good size chunk. I'm not exaggerating, this is one very expensive set of poop.

I still have all the original packing and my set says that their for 'retreading'. They are thicker than normal HSS split dies, and the lack of any marking to that effect indicates that they are most likely made of carbon steel. I think I already mentioned poop.

If your 6-32 is marked 9-52777, and is almost 3/8" thick then its a carbon retreading die. I was told that hexagon 'retreading dies' are thicker than hexagon 'threading dies'.

Welcome To the Craftsman Club! :fan:

-MB


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## milotrain (Jan 27, 2011)

I'll start by saying that I don't tap that often. However in the limited exposure I've had to tapping I've discovered a few important things.

1. It's all about the material you are tapping into and the diameter of the hole. You can use a steel screw to tap a 6-32 thread into aluminum if you have too. You need a nice tap (or epic patience) to tap a 3/8-16 thread into SS.

2. Don't forget that different materials want different pilot holes. If you find you are having trouble tapping look at the chart and open up the hole to the next size that's acceptable for a different material. For example, that 3/8-16 want's a 5/16" pilot in aluminum, brass and plastic but it was a fight to tap into SS with a 5/16" pilot. Should have used a Q size bit. Either way though 3/8-16 in plastic want's a 5/16" (.3125") hole while 3/8-32 wants a T (.3580") hole. That's a pretty big range, if you are making a big hole use a boring tool to open up the hole in steps within the holes tap range until the tap runs smoothly.

3. Cutting oil and verticality cannot be overstated. Use whatever methods you must to keep that tap straight, and run engine oil if you have nothing else (or Olive oil). Don't tap dry.

4. Patience. I made that 3/8-16 thread in a SS block with a crappy Vermont American tap (I don't like them as much as even the Irwin taps you can get at Home Depot) and an undersized hole of 5/16" but I only advanced about 10 degrees before backing off and making sure the new threads were pretty clean.


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## JohnT (Dec 1, 2012)

FWIW, I have bought NOS taps in the small sizes I need on EBAY like 3-48, 4-40, 5-40, 6-32, 8-32 in small batches. The taps are Greenfield, Winter, Rieff&Nestor. I recently bought 30 taps total from one seller consisting of the various sizes I just mentions for $90 shipped. That's about three bucks a tap. Not too bad, I'd say. Other than doing it that way, if I buy them new I will only buy American taps like Greenfield, or Japanese taps like OSG . No others. Not worth it. Same with dies.


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## Tonnetto (Dec 1, 2012)

Tapping large coarse threads in tough materials can be quite difficult, if it's possible try to make the hole extra deep or even go through with it to give room for the chips to go somewhere. In my fulltime job we put threads into parts using many different methods depending on the size of thread and what the material is. (Of course working on a $750,000.00 CNC doesn't hurt). Generally speaking, for thread sizes 3/8" and smaller in aluminum we'll use rollform taps, they require a complete different hole size chart, the advantage is that they don't make chips and you can tap to the bottom of holes without stopping. For harder materials and larger sizes in aluminum we try to threadmill whenever possible (CNC only method). Although it would be possible to threadmill on a manual mill using a rotary table that's somehow geared into the Z axis. Another option for tough materials would be a high production nut tap it has a very long lead to it that gradually cuts the thread to final size, the downside is that the hole has to be a thru-hole or very deep.


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