# LSx Engine w/ 1" bore



## bigmellon

Hello all,

This is my first post here, although I have been poking around a bit.  I am excited to see a high number of people on here using SolidWorks, FEA, and all kinds of fabrication skills.  It really is inspiring to read all of the projects on here.  

I started playing around with making an LS-like engine design with my main design criteria being a 1.0" bore.  This is roughly 1/4 scale, but I am not leveraging dimensions from an actual motor.  I have needed to modify some dimensions as this is scaled down.  My intent is not necessarily to get the engine running...  Rather I would like a very nice desk display that uses aluminum, stainless, copper, and brass - and rotates slowly so that you can see how it all works.  I have been thinking about possibly sectioning a cylinder head or making some parts translucent...  We will see where it goes.  

For now...  I have started a number of models in SolidWorks and am printing my second revision of a cylinder head as I write this.  I think I might machine the little bits and install them on the plastic sample to see how it all works.  

So, without further ado...  Here goes.  It is nice to make your acquaintance and I look forward to getting value out of this site and your feedback.  Thank you!  











More pics to come...


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## Swifty

Welcome, if you go to the welcome new members section, it would be interesting if you let us know what machines you have to make things with. You mention that you will puts some parts on the plastic sample, do you have a 3D printer?

Paul.


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## crueby

Sounds like a neat project. One cylinder a cutaway, one can dispense M&M's...

I always loved seeing the cutaway models of big engines in museums as a kid - looking forward to seeing how it comes out!


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## aonemarine

Looking forward to seeing the printed parts.


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## bigmellon

Yes, I have a MakerBot and printed this thing today.  It took about 5 hours to print, but looks decent  

I will look for the new member area, but honestly I have so much equipment, it is likely easier to list what I don't have (CNC).


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## bigmellon

Another picture from he other side.  This thing actually has a water jacket inside it!  Pretty happy with the print quality and general shape of the part.


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## aonemarine

pla or abs??  Great looking print btw....


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## bigmellon

This is made from ABS.  

I went out to the barn tonight to play around with some scrap material to see the best way to machine the valves.  Since I have all manual machines, I tried a number of ways.  It looks like the best results for me was to turn the flute of the valve first, then run the stem out as long as I need it.  Still sort of funny to see these little valves in a 15" chuck!  Ha! 

Now to pick up some odd bits and some new materials...


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## rcfreak177

I will be watching this one with interest


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## bigmellon

A few more screen shots of the model...  Added the valve cover and a copper head gasket.


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## bigmellon

I am thinking that my goal will be to be able to duplicate the following pictures in miniature for display purposes.  I really like the idea of laying out all of the parts, but that is likely to be knocked off onto the floor and lost!  I really want to be able to have a mini "crate engine" for display, possibly with cutaway to show it operating.


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## stevehuckss396

bigmellon said:


> I am thinking that my goal will be to be able to duplicate the following pictures in miniature for display purposes.  I really like the idea of laying out all of the parts, but that is likely to be knocked off onto the floor and lost!  I really want to be able to have a mini "crate engine" for display, possibly with cutaway to show it operating.



There have been folks in the past that wire parts onto flat boards and create some real nice displays. No worries about parts dropping.

Look at the  way Mr Luhrs displayed his radial and inline 4. 
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/luhrs.htm


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## bigmellon

Steve - Thanks for the link!  I think I have come across his work in the past.  That is definitely a great option!  So much detail there...    Great reference. 

I was thinking about different casting methods over the weekend.  Would you guys say that most home model engine guys would investment cast (lost wax) parts if they are not machining from bar stock?  I have seen a few "kits" available online that look like unmachined castings with a set of drawings.  

I am thinking of trying my hand at casting the cylinder heads with a functional water passage inside the heads.  Having small complex cores tends to make me want to play with sand casting rather than investment castings...  Any feedback you guys have would be much appreciated.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel...  

I think my goal would be to cast the net shape and then machine & drill the casting to print.  I believe the finished product will look very similar to the stock engine parts in terms of surface finish.


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## aonemarine

You could try doing it as a lost pla casting from a printed part. But the internal passages scare me a bit with this process. Its likely for the investment to fail, but you never know it might work out fine.
Lost wax is certainly a better solution. You could make up molds for the cores and shoot them in dissolvable wax and place them in a master mold to be injected with wax to form the head as one piece, or split the head into two haves to be joined.   Would be a cool project for sure..


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## bigmellon

I was playing around with some casting supplies and molds that I made recently.  The molds are printed on the Makerbot...  I wanted to try a new technique I have been thinking about.  

I have been looking at the 3D sand printers online quite a bit.  It is amazing how the hardened sand blocks fit together snugly and they are able to get very good looking castings from their process.  

https://youtu.be/Z8MaVaqNr3U

So, I thought maybe I could duplicate this with a "mold for a mold" that I could fill with hardening core sand and then glue the two pieces together to make a mold.  Heck, that could even work for low volume production needs 




Close, but no ceeegar.  The regular white silica sand that was used is too large of a grain to really get the surface finish right on the parts.  I think the sides of my mold having lines from the makerbot made it a bit tougher to pop out the hardened sand block (even with 5 degree tapers).  

I also packed in some green sand (yes, I know it's brown) and the surface finish was excellent.  This was really just to see what it was like...  and compare the two options.  Obviously, the green sand was not able to be handled, but the hardened core molds were.  




I may look for a finer grit of sand and try the core mold process yet again.  Any input from he group would be appreciated... I know a lot of you have more experience with casting than I do.


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## aonemarine

You could try some of the wax filament from machinablewax.com and see how it works out for you. Bit of a learning curve to print with but pretty cool stuff. Ive also printed abs molds, vapor polished, and shot wax directly into them. You need to put them in the freezer for a bit so the wax releases from the abs more easily.
Im not much into sand casting, but if you can track down the videos on YOUTUBE by Nick Muller? Hes done some pretty trick sand casting of small parts with vaccum assist that would be right up your alley.


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## bigmellon

Thanks for the pointers!  I am off to Youtube to check into that!!

Also, please explain vapor polishing.  How exactly would you do that not he ABS parts?  Sanding seems to take forever!


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## aonemarine

Just sit your abs part in a crock pot or something with some acetone and warm it up. In a few minutes you will have nice shiney abs without print lines.  You just want the abs part to come in contact with the vapors, not the liquid.
Check out lost pla casting on yt while your out there....chances are you find me. Lol


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## bigmellon

Is this the video you were talking about?  

https://youtu.be/QijGV2G26JI

Great concept for thin walled features.  I assume the vacuum assist helps pull the aluminum through the thin cross sections.  I guess the assist comes from the fact that it is still being gravity poured, but needs help because of the thin walls.


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## bigmellon

With vapor polishing - How does that affect dimensional tolerance?  Do parts shrink or warp?


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## aonemarine

bigmellon said:


> With vapor polishing - How does that affect dimensional tolerance?  Do parts shrink or warp?



  They seem to expand slitely to me, cant say I ever measured them before and after though.


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## aonemarine

AH HA  Found what you need to see...
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=19073


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## bigmellon

Really cool project!  Great links.  Thank you.  This makes me want more side projects just to play with casting methods!!  

I am looking around for a decent source for vacuum assist casting materials.  You seem to have a lot of equipment.  Did you make it, or is there a webstore you might recommend?  My searches seem to always push me into the big dollar vacuum casting machines and automated processes.


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## aonemarine

Riogrande.com or contenti.com
Pretty easy to fabricate most of what you need, but easier to buy some things like the vaccum flasks.


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## bigmellon

Cool!  I will check them out.  I like the detail I am seeing and the surface finish of the castings.  

I was originally thinking about making my mold with core sand sort of like the following:
https://youtu.be/yXVLbzI3xTE


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## bigmellon

I am looking forward to the NAMES exhibit this weekend!  Not sure whom is going, but I am excited that it is here 

I believe I am settling in on the LS7 engine rather than specifically the LSx block.  Not only is the LSx block cast iron, but it supports 6 head bolts per hole which would be difficult in the small scale I am working with.  The LS7 is an aluminum block, o-ring cylinder liners, and 4 bolt heads.  It's kind of gorgeous too.  

My shorter term goals are to make the heads and a block...  Crank, cam, and accessories thereafter.  Not sure if anyone would be interested, but it seems that it might be fun to make a handful of blocks.  Maybe some guys would get a kick out of working on some of the other pieces?  PM me if this is up your alley.


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## barnesrickw

It's just that easy.  Cool video.


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## dnalot

> The regular white silica sand that was used is too large of a grain to really get the surface finish right on the parts



What you want is Olivine sand. It is very fine and makes very nice cores. It also works great for filling tubing before bending. I bought my bag from a pottery supply co in Seattle. 

Mark T


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## bigmellon

dnalot said:


> What you want is Olivine sand. It is very fine and makes very nice cores. It also works great for filling tubing before bending. I bought my bag from a pottery supply co in Seattle.
> 
> Mark T



AWESOME!  Thanks for the pointer.  I will go pick some up.


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## jamestat2

Went to NAMES yesterday! My buddy and I where blown away by the talent displayed there! 5 feet in the door and my camera was clicking away! Spoke with Ron Colonna for a while! Didn't even know who he was until I got back home and started looking up some things and saw his picture.

This is a nice project your working on. I will be watching with great interest!

I am currently working on building my first cnc machine. It will be a "VERY" rigid 5 axis cnc router with a lathe type attachment in the bed that will be removable. I am making it sturdy enough to machine aluminum. It is going to have a 16 inch "Y" axis so I can do larger deeper projects.

Started out wanting to do foam a 34 coupe body for covering in fiberglass then thought "Why not make it really rigid!" that way I could use it to do larger aluminum projects like model engine blocks and such. So here I go making it heavier duty! LOL!

Anyhow. Wish you luck.


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## Swifty

Jamestat2, I would love to see a picture of your heavy duty router project, why don't you start a build thread.

Paul.


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## bigmellon

NAMES was incredible.  I really like how open everyone was to newcomers and how everyone was interested in sharing technique and insights.  Really cool show and a fun experience chatting with everyone there.  Some absolutely amazing handiwork gentlemen!!


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## barnesrickw

Hawaii is full of that olivine sand if you have any friends.  Here on Lake Michigan, Muskegon once had many foundries because of the availability of Quartz sand.  It must work well too.


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## jamestat2

Swifty, I have really just begun working on the parts for the router. It's kind of a mishmash of material that I have and stuff I am machining from stock at my buddies machine shop. Most of the stuff is from cncrouterparts.com. If you go there they give you alot of the files for their parts for free (In various formats.).

I am just changing alot of their plans to make the parts beefier. Like the gantry (X-axis) I am developing from their plans is 3060 series 15 80/20, and I am backing that with 1/4" X 7" cold rolled steel bolted to the 80/20 every 6" (I'm actually using 8" but I am cutting it down on the bandsaw and machining the edge to 7".) to run the Extended Linear Carriage Bearings on. Same goes for the Y-axis. I have some material laying around so I am using 3" channel aluminum with 1530 series 15 80/20 and bolted to that I am using 1/4" X 4" cold rolled to run the Extended Linear Carriage Bearings from cncrouterparts.com that I machined myself.

I am currently in the middle of doing a '52 F3 Rat Rod project so I am just building the parts when I get sick and tired of sanding bondo and doing rust repairs! LMAO! It's a serious project but it is going to take me a while. Plus the electronics (servos and such) are going to cost me around $1500 and I have to save up for them. Since I'm a no credit type of person! (If you can't afford to pay cash for it don't buy it!)

I will get some pictures of the parts and start a build thread but I am warning you it will be long and drawn out! LOL!

Not trying to highjack Bigmellons thread here so I will start one.

I am waiting to see the process he is going to use to cast these parts! I am very interested in casting and have never done any so this is all very intriuging to me!


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## bigmellon

I am attaching my engine block study for the LS7.  I did need to make one major modification to the design - stretching the cylinder bore spacing a bit to account for water jacket and space for adequate bearing surface.  It's not much, but it is the only dimension that isn't perfectly to scale as of yet.  They really squeezed some tight bores into that production block!!  

I found using 3D CAD to model this very helpful.  I enjoy symmetry and this is a perfect example of how to align the two banks without causing other issues.  Someone might find this helpful for their project too, so I figured I would share and open this up to critique...   

I am less concerned with a running engine, and more concerned with accurately portraying the engine in my model.  

Hope you like what I have pulled together so far.  

View attachment LS block study.PDF


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## Metal_slicer

I like it I like it!!


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## bigmellon

So, I have to say that I have really enjoyed this exercise going through and reverse engineering the LS7 engine.  I found it easiest to model just one bank (4 cylinders) at a time.  It enable me to look through the inside of the block and make sure I had proper clearance, etc.  It just gave an overall better working environment.  








After making the one bank, all I did was glue two halves together with the combine feature of Solidworks.  Pretty darn close!!  Obviously, I built in the cylinder offset, but overall this sure was a simple way to get in there and work through the details.  




After combining the two, I was able to add in the cross webbing, bearing supports, and can start working on specific detail to the combined overall block (front timing cover v. bell housing, etc)...  Still lots more to do, but this has been enjoyable so far.


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## bigmellon

Here is a copper head gasket that I drew up real quick.  




And then a cutaway of the block with gaskets, sleeves, and camshaft installed.  This mainly shows the water jacket in the block and also is a decent angle for seeing the cam, lifters, and relative proportions of the internals.


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## bigmellon

Here is a picture of the block with camshaft installed and the full oil galley system in place.  




Apparently all LS engines have a conventional oiling system, and the LSx block specifically calls out a "priority mains" oiling system where oil goes first to the main bearings and then to the cam and lifters.  Pretty neat actually, and my setup actually accommodates both.  I am however a little worried about very long small diameter holes being drilled through the entire length of the block.  

Some oil system references to keep handy;










This last one shows the priority oiling passage.


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## Cogsy

Here in Australia a few years ago, they had a problem with quite a few LS1 engines starving the bottom end of oil. Horror stories of people going through 3 engines in 10,000 miles under warranty in brand new cars. Not sure how they fixed it but it doesn't happen anymore.


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## bigmellon

I have been working on the cam and cam bearings...  Conventional cams have different size bearings with the largest bearing in the front of the engine.  This likely eases installation...  

My question for the group - Would you machine the cam bearings the same diameter for this small scale?  It seems that it may be hard to install the bearings unless I stagger the diameters slightly.


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## bigmellon

Well boys...  12 hours from now I should be able to handle the first draft of the LS7 block.  Functional coolant and oiling systems...  all holes are center drilled to be tapped.  The block isn't 100% quite yet, but getting close.


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## bigmellon

And here it is...  I am actually surprised the print came out so well.  For the number of undercuts on the part, it's not too shabby!


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## Metal_slicer

Very nice. Is the print qualiy good enough for aluminum casting?. It looks like a wax pattern.


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## bigmellon

This one was made form ABS.  I could print in PLA and do lost PLA casting when the design is finished.  I am still watching videos from Aonemarine on this and learning about his casting method with vacuum assist.  

Sure is nice to have the model in hand to reference.


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## Metal_slicer

bigmellon said:


> This one was made form ABS.  I could print in PLA and do lost PLA casting when the design is finished.  I am still watching videos from Aonemarine on this and learning about his casting method with vacuum assist.
> 
> Sure is nice to have the model in hand to reference.



It looks so cool. It must be satisfying to hold the design in your hand and to be able to look at it in the real world.


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## bigmellon

It sure is!  Even when you know all the dimensions, it is always a wonder to hold it in your hands.  I was surprised at how "large" this block is.  The block is 5.500" long.


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## aonemarine

5.5" long = large ??? roflmao  I am truely blessed.....LOL  seriously though, before you try casting it let me know. There are some things that just wont happen with the lost pla casting..


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## bigmellon

You are a funny man Aone...  

After reading back through my last post, I guess I could have phrased things a little differently.


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## aonemarine

bigmellon said:


> You are a funny man Aone...
> 
> After reading back through my last post, I guess I could have phrased things a little differently.



I try to be......but sometimes people just dont get my dry sense of humor....


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## bigmellon

Working on the matching cylinder heads now...  But there were some earlier attempts.  I was able to get the bore spacing back closer to stock and have to rebuild the heads again.  Not bad though!  I love the details and thinking about watching this thing turn over.


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## Metal_slicer

Looks awesome. it is going to be nice.


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## Metal_slicer

Now you need to print the intake manifold. About how long did it taker to print the block and heads?


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## bigmellon

I think the block took around 12 hours.  The heads were around 7 hours each if I am not mistaken.


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## bigmellon

Oh, I have been bad lately, neglecting my little project!!  

I have been researching different casting methods.  Lost wax/pla seems to be the best, but I still like the idea of doing core sand molds to pour blocks from!  Maybe I am weird...  

I am planning to send out for a water clear SLA of the block.  I will then inject colored epoxy through the oiling system to highlight the oil pathways.  I may even fill the water jackets with colored epoxy as well.  This way, you could literally look through the block to see how these LS engines are plumbed.  I may make the cam and crank from steel, add brass bearings, and try to make the engine spin over at low rpm for a desk top model...  Sounds fun to me anyway.  

Well, back to revising my cylinder head design...


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## mu38&Bg#

Oops, posted in the wrong thread. I'm following along just watching. The SW models look good. I'd like to build a BMW six like a S38B38 one day.

Greg


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## donw1948

I admire the work you done so far !  I hope you find time to do more.


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## bigmellon

Oh, there is time   My progress seems to be going in spurts on this one, but it is a fun mental exercise


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## bigmellon

Hey all,

Been too long since I have posted anything, so here goes!  Attached are pictures of the modeled LS7 crank, connecting rods, and pistons.  







I have printed a few of these off in ABS plastic.  Really looking forward to trying lost PLA on this model to see how the castings turn out.  I have water jackets int he model and they print fairly well with the ABS.  I am hoping I can get that level of detail using vacuum assist casting.


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## bigmellon




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## bigmellon

Alright folks!  It's been a while and I wanted to post a few more pics and put a few manufacturing thoughts out there.  I have been revising my engine block model to better match my desired manufacturing process.  I am planning to leverage lost PLA investment casting such that I can print a 3D model of these parts and then cast them in aluminum.  My goal is to post-process the casting using my manual machines (No CNC access for me).  

The biggest feature that I have added is a set of ribs on the deck of the block.  These positioning ribs help position the engine block flat when upside down.  There may be some marginal benefit for 3D printing.  These features will later be removed by machining process, but will provide a strong square base for initial machining operations.  These initial operations are quite important as they will ensure that the top, bottom, front, and back are all square and perpendicular to each other.  All other machining and drilling operations will depend on the block being square.  The block is about 5.650" inches long, so it fits well inside a 6" machinist vice.  If I had a 5" vise, I could mill the bottom, front, and back faces in one setup.  

I am planning to 3D print setup tooling for machining the block as well.  This too may not work the first attempt, but I believe that the surface finish is reasonable and this temporary tooling need not hold any true clamping force.  As long as I keep these fixtures as positioning only, and clamp the block cleanly between the jaws, this could save a lot of time machining aluminum setup tools.  

I am about to get my feet wet with the investment casting process!  Here are some pics of the most recent block model.  I first developed the engine block model as a "machined part" so to speak.  Once I was happy with the finished product, I added material to generate a "net form" or as-cast model of the block.  This included adding material anywhere I wanted to have a machined surface, closing drill holes, and adding enough material to the bottom end of the block to permit drilling and reaming of those features.  It is fun to be able to draw and print parts that have undercuts.  If the 3D printer can print them (but the part could not come out of a mold) investment casting can cast it.  Lastly, I am planning to leverage the mains of the block as the runners from the main sprue when casting the part.  

The block that is greenish in color is the latest version of my net form design printed in PLA.  This was my first print with PLA and I did have issues with a portion of the model not sticking to the build plate properly.  I have increased my model size by 101.8% to account for material shrinkage.  It will be interesting to see how the model holds up once I am able to pour the first sample.  I may expect some issues as I refine my abilities to cast these parts, but am looking forward to that step.


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## DayDreamer

I'd love to see how this process works for the casting process as I've been thinking of using that to help produce a motorcycle engine that I've been  wanting to design and build


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