# 10" wet grinder



## Tin Falcon (Jul 17, 2013)

In the Grinding HSS thread there was discussion on using a wet stone grinder to sharpen HSS tools.  I just recieved such a grinder and promised a review. 
the grinder in question  is a Scheppach 10" TiGer 2500 1/4 HP 1750 rpm mot with a spindle speed on the stone of  110 rpm  the grinder comes with a 10" stone  a 8"  leather strop angle guide, straight blade guide. and honing polishing paste. 




The first installment. 
The grinder received today along with the box of grinding jigs, Fast shipping from sears.com.  Also picked up a stone grader from woodcraft in Newcastle DE. 

The packaging on the grinder was somewhat damaged the box torn an taped and the inside foam broken in several places. the grinder itself seems fine. Plugged it in turned it on slight wobble to the wheel probably should be trued but do not want to spend the money on a truing jig right now. The switch is different than pictured but no big deal. The switch looks just like the one on the comparable grizzly machine. as a matter of fact the machines look the same except for stickers and paint color. I have other grizzly machines and like them so  no worries. at some point will get pictures and need to do some testing. and I need to make a table for grinding lathe tools yes could buy one but where is the fun i n that. 
I am a little confused as country of origin the machine and box say made in Germany(In German) but the box also says made in PRC.  
but I expect made in the same factory as the Grizzly .

Tin


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## Swifty (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi Tin, we can buy the same grinder from Hare and Forbes here in Australia, the website says its designed in Germany, but I assume that it's made in China.

Paul.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 18, 2013)

I expect made in china the manual appears to be the normal nonsense chinglish.

You just have to laugh at some of the statements in these manuals like" always wear tight clothing. Like I am really going to put on spandex to operate my grinder.   Or use for steel only no hard alloys . I expect they really mean do not grind carbide on the provided wheel. 
And some things they should tell you they do not like leaving a wheel soaking in water can cause the wheel to be unbalanced and cause excessive vibration. this is in the grizzly manual. 
there are a couple of interesting expert tips like place a magnet in the water tray to collect steel grinding dust and coat the hone with weak machine oil before applying the honing compound. 
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 18, 2013)

I think I posted the HAre and forbes link on the HSS grinding thread  

Scheppach  TiGer 2500


Unfortunately  for you guys the cost is 30% higher I got mine for $212 USD and H & F sells for $319 with VAT I know some of the difference is exchange fate but only about $20 worth.And mine included ground shipping. for a 40 lb Package.. 
Tin


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## Swifty (Jul 18, 2013)

Tin, we've become accustomed to being ripped off on imported goods. Ship from China to the US, or from China to Australia, seems that shipping should not be much different. It's the importers who put on too much profit.

I'm always amazed by the English in the Chinese manuals, surely it can't be too hard to have an English speaking person proof read them first.

Paul.


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## Tinkerer58 (Jul 19, 2013)

I love Chinglish manuals, like my wife's hairdryer, "WARNING" Do not use in shower" Yeah I wonder who will win this one, the shower or the dryer LMAO. Or the electric blanket "Do not wash while plugged in".


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## aarggh (Jul 19, 2013)

Tinkerer58 said:


> I love Chinglish manuals, like my wife's hairdryer, "WARNING" Do not use in shower" Yeah I wonder who will win this one, the shower or the dryer LMAO. Or the electric blanket "Do not wash while plugged in".



We might think it's stupid, but it only takes one person! And the law of averages states.....!

You only have to look at the Darwin Awards to see the proof.

cheers, Ian


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## Sshire (Jul 19, 2013)

Tin
How are yor holding the toolbits to maintain a ground angle? I was looking at the Tormak last night and figuring out all manner of oddball schemes to do this.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 19, 2013)

Scheppach very basic and thin. contains the expected safety warnings in Chinglish. covers basics pretty well Not thorough by any means. 
does have a couple small nuggets of info I did learn from reading. 8pgs so thin 

Since I believe this identical to the grizzly I downloaded that manual as well. 
Grizzly : as always several pages of standard shop safety and electrical safety warnings. 
That said the grizzly manual is much more informative. it gives a procedure for removing the shipping block on the motor and a big warning to do so. it gives a test procedure and a troubleshooting guide. Includes color photo and color wiring diagram. 30 pages better.

and since the Tormek is the real deal and the manual is available on line I downloaded that too. 150 pages and actual instructions for all the available jigs as well as instruction for free hand grinding. 

High dollar top shelf tool and the manual reflects this but no reason I can not learn from the Tormek manual for using my Chinese, German engineered grinder.
Tin


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## gus (Jul 19, 2013)

Swifty said:


> Tin, we've become accustomed to being ripped off on imported goods. Ship from China to the US, or from China to Australia, seems that shipping should not be much different. It's the importers who put on too much profit.
> 
> I'm always amazed by the English in the Chinese manuals, surely it can't be too hard to have an English speaking person proof read them first.
> 
> Paul.



Hi Paul,

Gus spent last ten years in China helping associates to translate sales literature into readable English with correct spelling.All proof copies must be vetted again and again. Any corrections made must be double checked.The printers can't spell. 

Straight translation is fine but the Chinese factories like to use bombastic/scholastic Chinese phrases and sometimes peotic phrases too which is impossible to translate to reflect the origiinal meaning. "Ten mile flat lake with cloudy skies" In Chinese text this is very peotic. Into English ??? 
The Chinese use dictionary to translate Chinese into English.
Chinese Roast Pork with Rice becomes Fork Burnt Rice. Oven baked short cakes becomes Burnt Biscuit". Their version of " Floor slippery when wet".
is so long that you lose the message/meaning.

On one occasion a young local Grad with a degree in translation was instructed by his boss to  his work vetted by me. He is good with simple English but when it comes to technical language the fun begins.
Poor guy's feelings was badly hurt.My advice to him was never think in Chinese and translate.First comprehend.Think in English and write it down. See more Hollywood Movies but please do not talk like John Wayne or Stallone.He became top translator.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 19, 2013)

> Tin
> How are yor holding the toolbits to maintain a ground angle? I was looking at the Tormak last night and figuring out all manner of oddball schemes to do this.



LOL not there yet initial thought is to make something along the lines of the Tool Rest SVD-110 shown on page 112 of the torment manual. maybe something with a sliding protractor./angle guide. it would probably work with your idea of a 5-c collet holder and square 5c collet. 

I have been browsing the tormek manual lots of tips for many kinds of tools.
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 19, 2013)

First photos :
and some observations. I took an underneath shot. the drive system on this is rudimentary. the motor shaft contacts a rubber drive wheel. and as expected siple bushings thought sheet metal to support the main shaft.  the specs on the motor do not match the specs in the manual. 
this is a wet grinder so things around the machine get wet. I sharpened several knives the knife jig works well. the axxe jig needs help  and have not assembled the scissors jig yet. The mini fruit crate will be a tool caddy the poly is drying on it.


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## gus (Jul 19, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> LOL not there yet initial thought is to make something along the lines of the Tool Rest SVD-110 shown on page 112 of the torment manual. maybe something with a sliding protractor./angle guide. it would probably work with your idea of a 5-c collet holder and square 5c collet.
> 
> I have been browsing the tormek manual lots of tips for many kinds of tools.
> Tin



Hi Tin,

Just holler if you need help reading/comprehending the Chinglish. Gus is very competent at reading/comprehending both Chinglish and Chinese.

I can't bear it any longer. When the next dividend cheque comes in.I'll buy a wet grinder too. :wall::wall: Just found a niche to hide it from my darling boss.:hDe::hDe:


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## lennardhme (Jul 19, 2013)

For what its worth....
As you slide the toolbit [ of whatever sort ] across the stone it maintains the squareness of the stone. The only time I ever square the stone with the diamond jig is when sharpening thicknesser blades. The squaring jig takes off quite a bit of stone, so be prudent with its use.
Run the stone in water for a minute before using - it soaks up a lot of water.
Dont press too hard - wont cut any qiucker.
Mine is a very old Tormek which runs [ originally ] from a drill [ now use a mincer motor which is geared down.] Made in Germany long before the Chinese syndrome, which maybe accounts for its longevity. 
Gus, Hairy Forbes are located on the Eastern side of Dandenong [ in Vic.], so not far for you to travel from your sisters place. Allow plenty of time - lots to drool over.
cheers.


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## lennardhme (Jul 19, 2013)

Oh ... Tin, the drive system works well. If you press too hard the spindle simply slips on the rubberised drive wheel. For the heavy handed.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 20, 2013)

the Tormek is definitely a lifetime tool I saw one vendor Rockler I think offering a 10 year warranty.

My chinese lathe has to be about 15 years old now and my mill 12 with no real issues so I expect the sheppach will last as well. 

The squaring truing tool is something I did not buy. 



> Run the stone in water for a minute before using - it soaks up a lot of water.


yep did it seems like the right thing to do.
Like I said I lightly read through the tormek manual as well as the Scheppach. 

Gus I think I have the  chinglish figured out. Like I said I will not be wearing spandex to operate this machine but no loose clothing either. And since I have no "weak" machine oil to dress the leather I used light oil I have for my lathe spindle. And just tell your wife you need it to sharpen and conserve the kitchen cutlery. The no need to hide. 

I was very pleased how fast and easy it is to sharpen small pen knives without a jig.
Tin


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## gus (Jul 20, 2013)

lennardhme said:


> For what its worth....
> As you slide the toolbit [ of whatever sort ] across the stone it maintains the squareness of the stone. The only time I ever square the stone with the diamond jig is when sharpening thicknesser blades. The squaring jig takes off quite a bit of stone, so be prudent with its use.
> Run the stone in water for a minute before using - it soaks up a lot of water.
> Dont press too hard - wont cut any qiucker.
> ...




Hi Lennard,

By hook or by crook,will go there.Will work out the economics.First buy cheapy air tickets with 40kg baggage. Should work out cheaper than buying from LMS and ship DHL. Will add up.
Is Harry Forbes outlet a big shop.


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## lennardhme (Jul 20, 2013)

Hare & Forbes [ known colloq. as Hairy Forbes ] A large open plan retail warehouse specialising in metal work machinery, & more recently woodworking, although for specialised woodworking gear I would reccomend CarbaTec. - they are in Springvale [ closer to your sisters place ] If you are into woodworking, or even just like the tools, they are a must-see with top stuff.
They also sell wet stone grinders & often have specials on Tormek.
Look up their web sites for more info.
Dont forget you should be able to get your gear GST free for overseas orders. [I think, never bought from Oz from overseas ]
Be happy to meet you & drive you around if required. I live in East Gippsland - 130k east of Dandenong, but have to go to Melb. for most of my supplies.
cheers.


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## gus (Jul 21, 2013)

lennardhme said:


> Hare & Forbes [ known colloq. as Hairy Forbes ] A large open plan retail warehouse specialising in metal work machinery, & more recently woodworking, although for specialised woodworking gear I would reccomend CarbaTec. - they are in Springvale [ closer to your sisters place ] If you are into woodworking, or even just like the tools, they are a must-see with top stuff.
> They also sell wet stone grinders & often have specials on Tormek.
> Look up their web sites for more info.
> Dont forget you should be able to get your gear GST free for overseas orders. [I think, never bought from Oz from overseas ]
> ...



Hi Lennard,
Thanks for tips.
Ingersoll-Rand Plant was located in Dandenong but broken up and sold. Spent some time there. Heartbreaking for me and my very first Singapore based Oz boss who was brought back to rejuvenate plant.He is happily retired and now 90 living in Bandanoon, 1 1/2 hours drive away from Sydney. Made it a point to buy him lunch or dinner every time I drop by Sydney. He took me off the street as the Aussies say and gave this young,knows next to nothing,young graduate a job as estimator and rosed to be Operations Manager in the 1990s.
Some history and links to Dandenong and Australia.Sisters and brother moved to Oz. And daughter married and living in Melbourne.

By hook or crook will drop by H&B.

See you,Mate. Good Day!!!


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## JeffersonHouse (Jul 25, 2013)

Don't be overly surprised if the Scheppach/Chicom wheel doesn't really true up.  The shafts and bearing aren't very true or well fitted to begin with and tend to wobble some even after the wheel is 'trued'.  With these things it's very much a case of 'you get what you pay for'.

After a few questionable tools and deception with their 'Gunsmiths' lathe I tend to avoid Grizzly.


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## Tin Falcon (Jul 25, 2013)

It is the old catch 22 isn't it.  I can not expect  the same quality and usability from this grinder as a Tormek . I hope the German Engineering and QC means something. Time will tell. 
First of all I will say this machine is a thousand times better than not having one. IIRC I mentioned my major reason for buying this machine was household cutting tools.  I am very happy with the job it does on kitchen knives . and pocket knives are a breeze . I need to try scissors on it. 
The wife is happy to have the knifes in the kitchen sharp. 
As far as the bearings I expect they will need upgrading at some point and maybe even have to replace the shaft. But you know what I have a personal machine shop and I can do that. 

I am not rich  I have a limited tool budget. If I had to pay the money for a new tormek I would still be using dull knives or struggling with a hand /bench stone . 
Yes they work but this is much easier and faster. 

Tin


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## lennardhme (Jul 25, 2013)

Hare & Forbes [Vic.] have a special on the Scheppach till 3rd August.


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 15, 2013)

It has been 3 months since I purchased the machine. All in All i am happy with it.  
Most of the use has been on kitchen knives and pocket knives.

One thing I have noticed is it does get wet around the grinder when doing knives especialy log kitchen knives do I take it outside. 
the other thing I noticed is the the steel shaft seemed to leave a little dent in the rubber wheel while sitting couple months .

I turned it on only to here a thump thump thump.....as the wheel turned. 
so i am thinking a motor prop block for when it is not in use. 

I find myself using the jigs less and doing more free hand work. 

Yesterday I dug through the bottom of the kitchen drawer and pulled out whatever I could find to sharpen. 
I ignored anything serrated (I hate those things) and sharpened up the much neglected paring knives and Touched up the chefs knives I did when I first got the grinder. I also sharpened the pocket knives from anyone's pocket that was handy  ie my son and his fiance' .
My son also pulled out his winchester brand Bowie stile knife. The edge on that was in very good condition so I just ran that across the leather strop wheel. 

All in all this tool is functioning as expected. and seems like a good bang for the buck . 

I am thinking about adding a drill jig like the  Tormek DB 22 . I am not fond of spending another $272 for sharpening tools . But so far have not seen any cheaper versions or plans for them.  open for suggestions. 

See Wet grinder for sharpening drills ? 




well enough for now.
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Sep 15, 2013)

This is the summation statement from the review in woodworker magazine. 




> This attachment would be a long-term investment for most people,
> as you would need to sharpen a lot of bits before it paid for itself.
> However, it grinds such a sharp edge that the drill bits performance
> is transformed, and the resulting holes produced are much cleaner
> ...



SO the question is the superiority of a four facet drill and the ability to custom grind geometry worth it ?
Tin


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## Wizard69 (Sep 15, 2013)

Tin Falcon said:


> This is the summation statement from the review in woodworker magazine.
> 
> SO the question is the superiority of a four facet drill and the ability to custom grind geometry worth it ?
> Tin



Four facet and more actually, have been touted for a long time in the model engineering press.    Is the effort worth it?   I can't say as right now I either hand grind or rely upon a Drill Doctor.  I can seem to remember times when my hand grinding left facets&#128513;.   In some cases the drills did appear to remove metal more efficiently.


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## gus (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi Tin Falcon,

Way back in the 1990s,bought a very expensive  German Drill Bit Grinder for US$2,000 for the plant.Big money in those days for such grinder. My boss did queried me.
It had too many clamps,fixtures etc and too time consuming to set up and grind. But used it to grind big drills 3/4" and above for use on the Leblonde Lathes to get good pre-ream pilot holes for motor pulley bores. The Tail Stock is hydraulic powered. A badly
ground drill would be  disastrous.

Hand grinding of drill bits takes time and patience to master. A perfect drill point with both cutting edges producing balance size swarf is 50/50 hit and miss. Was taught by
a master fitter way back in the 60s.Too bad I gave away the P&N Box of drills he ground for me. Was the best drill bits I ever had and used. It had web thinning and four facets.

The next trip to Australia,will drop by H&B to audit/review/appraise the Tormech for drill bit grinding.The next would be how to hand carry one back to Singapore.
Machine grinding of drill bits must have improved since 1990s.

P.S. Successfully ground a 9mm drill bit to drill brass w/o drill grabbing.Drilled a few more holes in brass and no grabbing,no matter of feed rate.
This after numerous attempt of very slow feed to no avail with drill bit grabbed in and stalled.

My sincere thanks to all my HMEM mentors.


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## Tin Falcon (Nov 18, 2013)

I decided to throw in an update .

I have still yet to make a grinding table for tool bit. And still contemplating a jig for drill bit grinding.

A few weeks back I ground a bunch of knives the grinder works well I did have an interesting experience. seems like the steel rod settled into the rubber wheel . bump bump bump. i now store the machine with the motor supported.


Tin


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## barnesrickw (Nov 19, 2013)

I  will be watching for that.  I was thinking about a drill bit/tool sharpening jig this past weekend.  Currently have some pillow blocks and a 1/4 hp continuous duty motor to start with.


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## Tin Falcon (Oct 23, 2015)

> I am thinking about adding a drill jig like the Tormek DB 22 . I am not fond of spending another $272 for sharpening tools .








Well folks It has been  almost two years since i posted to this thread. 
It has taken me that long to decide to spend the dough and buy one of the DBS 22 jigs. Yesterday morning my dear wife placed the order from a dealer in Newcastle DE. It traveled about  a hundred miles via ups truck and It sits in my shop. And I have sharpened a couple of bits . I took a while to do the first one . A little practice should make it easy. A  lot of minor points to learn .
Tin


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## Tin Falcon (Dec 6, 2015)

This unit works as advertized. very nice tips on the bits .  This is something that will take time to pay for itself but I do have quite a collection of drill bits. So why not keep what i have sharp. I would say speed of setup and grind similar to the drill doctor. There is a learning curve but nothing I could bot figure out from the manual. 

TM uses a wet stone to grind
DD uses dry diamond (not usually recommended for HSS)

TM uses a double v clamp to hold the bits  1 size for full range. 
DD uses a plastic collet with steel fingers  to hold the bits two needed for full range 1/8 to 3/4.

TM web visually aligned magnifier for small bits included. 
DD web aligned with steel fingers.

TM aluminum castings prevail
DD plastic injected molded parts. 

TM large bench unit not exactly portable
DD small and portable easily fits in a large tool box


TM System versatile will sharpen knives planer blades chisels etc.And with this jig   will sharpen drill bits. 
DD sharpens drills.  
Tin


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