# Brian Builds the Kerzel Hit and Miss I.C.



## Brian Rupnow

Okay Guys and Girls---A bit of a change in the game plan. I was going to build the Upshore "Farm Boy" engine, but I want this engine to be water cooled, and I found a set of free plans with what I think is a nicer cylinder design at http://www.floridaame.org/GalleryPages/g1h0106.htm This is not going to be a fast build, but I will build it one peice at a time and document it here as I go along. This will not be to my own design (unless I see an area that I think needs improvement.) If anyone has built this engine, please post and let me know if the plans are mostly correct, and how well your engine ran. If you choose to follow along, or even to build your own version, then welcome aboard---Lets have fun!!!----Brian


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## b.lindsey

This looks like a wonderful project Brian....will definitely be following along. 

Bill


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## Brian Rupnow

So here we go--The very first peice I go to model, and I have to change it!!! The original plan calls for a 0.625" radius cut full length on the top side of the base (3 3/4" long), and explains that Kerzel set it up using a boring bar between centers to do so. I have opted instead to mill a shallow slot full length with an endmill instead.


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## Jasonb

Just make sure the con rod does not touch the base!

J


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## Metal Butcher

Brian, You could use a 1/2" ball nose end mill (on the out side and inside milled out areas) to maintain the rounded casting look that the designer intended.

I I'm not critiquing your idea, I just mean to provide another equally aesthetic approach that would simplify the base's construction.

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

We get the two frame sides (which are opposite hand) whittled out, and attach them to the base---


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## Brian Rupnow

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Brian, You could use a 1/2" ball nose end mill (on the out side and inside milled out areas) to maintain the rounded casting look that the designer intended.
> 
> I I'm not critiquing your idea, I just mean to provide another equally aesthetic approach that would simplify the base's construction.
> 
> -MB



Good point, Metal Butcher---I've got a brand new 1/2" ball nose end mill I've never used yet!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Oh---and by the way---I will be changing all fasteners (where-ever I can) to #5-40 and #10-24.


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## Brian Rupnow

By adding the two bearing caps and the bronze crankshaft bushings, we now have a home for our crankshaft. By creating the solid models of the individual peices as I go along and thn assembling them, it lets me check to see how things line up and for clearances, etc.


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## Brian Rupnow

Things start to get real interesting when the cylinder body gets added. This is just the water jacket actually---The cylinder liner bolts inside it.


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## cfellows

Looks good, Brian. So, how does the cylinder liner get sealed so water doesn't leak out around it? Locktite? Epoxy? Shrink or press fit? O-Ring?

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---From what I can see of the plans, the entire length of the cylinder liner (2.3") is a slight interferance fit into the aluminum water jacket. The water jacket doesn't let water come in contact with the liner anywhere. When I worked for Volkswagen of Canada, we used to have a copper based heat transfer paste we would use on inserts in the H13 permanent molds for casting aluminum wheels. I may try and find a small quantity of that in a tube, as it would make such a long interferance fit slide together easier, and could help with the heat conductance to the cooling water. I know these small engines, particularly the hit and miss style don't create a lot of heat anyways.


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## cfellows

Interesting thought. I'm wrestling with the water jacket on my hot bulb engine. Hadn't thought of a completely sealed water jacket that just fits over the cylinder liner. Maybe make it out of brass so I could solder it together...

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Now add in a crankshaft---This is a healthy little bugger, 3/8" dia. with 7/16" diameter at the bearings.---I haven't got a 7/16" reamer---This'll give me an excuse to buy one.


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## Brian Rupnow

And finally, to end off the day, a cylinder head.--And Oh Yeah---The dimensions for it are on the drawing, but by God, you've sure got to hunt for them, and calculate, and guess a little bit.


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## lathe nut

I think I hearing it running already, how neat to be able to do that kind of design, Your good I mean great, Lathe Nut


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## Dave Sohlstrom

Brian

I've been watching your conversion of the 2D drawings to 3D. I had downloaded the drawings myself and was playing with 3D to better understand them. In drawing the Cylinder Body I believe that we are looking at a wet sleeve engine vers dry sleeve. find enclosed my drawing of the Cyl Body.

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

As I get deeper into this, I'm beginning to find errors in the drawings. There is definitly a mistake in the hole position in the "Cam Slide Bearing" on page HHM1-04 The drawing of the piston has a note attached to it refering to a 3/8" diameter bore, while its actually a slot that is shown. The connecting rod drawing is missing a number of dimensions---I have used what seem to be logical dimensions to model it. If anyone else is planning on building this engine, let me know and I will put corrected/complete drawings up in this thread. Even with a few small errors, this is still looking like a well designed engine. I didn't want to build my own sparkplug, so I modelled the NGK sparkplug #CM-6 that I used in my Webster engine, but there was simply no way it was going to fit, so I guess I will be building my own sparkplug. I plan on using Viton o-rings on the piston, so when I get the correct dimensions and part number, I will put up a new detail drawing of the piston.


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## Jasonb

Brian if you can't fit a CM-6 plug and don't want to make something then you could probably get away with one of the 1/4 x 32 plugs such as Rimfire, they are quite a bit smaller than the 10mm ones

Jason


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## Brian Rupnow

Just to give some idea of relative sizes, here is an assembly drawing. One thing you will note is that I increased the thickness of the base by 0.9", so that it extends below the flywheels. The original builder had it setting up on a block of wood.


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## ozzie46

Brian, I have these plans also and want to build it but I want to get more experience.I have read that I/C engines are a lot tougher to build than the air/steam ones so I want to build some more air/steam engines first to build up my confidence and experience first. So yes I would very much appreciate any corrected drawings you might do of these drawings. 

  Thank you for the offer.


 Ron


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## Brian Rupnow

I see that in the original plans, the flywheels are attached to the crankshaft with a set screw. I wonder how succesfull that was. When these little engines do fire, they give a very powerfull kick. In the Webster build, the designer drilled a 3/32" hole thru the flywheel hub and thru the crankshaft. This ensures no slippage, but weakens the crankshaft in a rather critical area. I'm going to have to think a bit on this one---


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## Brian Rupnow

ozzie46  said:
			
		

> Brian, I have these plans also and want to build it but I want to get more experience.I have read that I/C engines are a lot tougher to build than the air/steam ones so I want to build some more air/steam engines first to build up my confidence and experience first. So yes I would very much appreciate any corrected drawings you might do of these drawings.
> 
> Thank you for the offer.
> 
> 
> Ron



Ozzie---Somebodies been pulling your chain a bit. I don't think that they are any more difficult than an air/steam type engine. And yes---I will be posting the corrected drawings.---Brian


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## Jasonb

You could use a keyway to stop the flywheels slipping. 

May also be worth thinking about extending the crank on the non governor side to take a pully as these engines seldom ran a belt of the flywheel. Some did mount the pully to the pully to the flywheel spokes though.

Jason


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## bearcar1

Hi Brian, what error did you run across on that CSB part? I must have missed it as I didn't have any problems with it when I was in the process of building The Geneva www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8824.0 (still am). I admit that there are places on DK's drawings that have some missing dimensions such as you found on the con rod but to me a bit of seat-of-the-pants common reckoning and a bit of armchair engineering is all that was required to calculate the dimensions to complete the piece. I'll be watching as your project unfolds as I still have a long way to go yet. I'd be interested in seeing your revisions and additions to the original drawings. It is interesting to see the model done in CAD and assembled as such. I'm still in the stone age I guess, but I sure do envy the guys that have access to and can put that technology to use. 

BC1
Jim


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I see that in the original plans, the flywheels are attached to the crankshaft with a set screw. I wonder how succesfull that was. When these little engines do fire, they give a very powerfull kick. In the Webster build, the designer drilled a 3/32" hole thru the flywheel hub and thru the crankshaft. This ensures no slippage, but weakens the crankshaft in a rather critical area. I'm going to have to think a bit on this one---



Brian, I used set screws for the flywheels on my 1" bore hit n miss. I had to mill a shallow flat on the crank for the set screw to seat on and I really had to cinch the setscrews down hard. You might also consider two setscrews per flywheel. 

A more elegent, albeit complicated, solution is to use tapered collet type clamp. Here are photos from my plumbing parts engine.


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## bearcar1

A broached keyway and slot in the crankshaft would also work, I like the method that Chuck outlined using that collet arrangement. 

BC1
Jim


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## rleete

I'm cyurious about the end view (lower left of your drawing). Are the flywheels offset to allow clearance for the valve train?


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## Brian Rupnow

To say this bit with the governor is a "Tricky Bugger" would not be an understatement---Particularly as the drawings in this area are a bit unclear. However, I am barging on through, and if I find anything that absolutely isn't right, I will change it---


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## Brian Rupnow

rleete  said:
			
		

> I'm cyurious about the end view (lower left of your drawing). Are the flywheels offset to allow clearance for the valve train?



Yes, they are offset a bit, but probably not as much as I have shown. When I made that drawing, I hadn't yet located the governor side flywheel. Its just setting there in space, concentric to the crankshaft, but with no locating dimension from the engine centerline to locate it yet.


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## Brian Rupnow

Either Kerzel made a mistake when he designed the offset rocker arm, or else I did when I modelled it. Anyways, I'm going to quit for a while because my back is killing me. There's not quite as much work involved in modelling something like this as there is in building it ;D ;D ;D, but still, there is enough. time for a snack and a nap and then maybe more later today.---Brian


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## bearcar1

Can you elaborate on the errors you mentioned Brian, I'd be very interested in knowing about them before I get too far into something only to find out it isn't right and could have been corrected for ahead of time. I do like the idea of making the base into a plinth arrangement in order to elevate the engine just a bit, it makes foe a possible good location to stash a fuel tank. ;D

BC1
Jim


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## tel

Keep 'er going Brian - this might well become my first foray into IC engines.


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, I've got this puppy just about whipped!!! All thats left to model is the valves and the ignition points. Kerzel does have a few mistakes on his drawings, but I will post the corrected drawings tomorrow. Its nothing majorly serious, but it would keep the engine from working/ going together. I just asked my magic software about the "Assembly Statistics" and it informed me that so far I have a total of 48 parts, with 34 of them being "unique" parts.--And thats not counting fasteners. It seems to be a fairly well conceived engine, but then again, I've only built one other I.C. engine, so I'm not certain how good a judge I am. But Hey!!!---Damn, its free. One of the biggest problems I have found is trying to figure out how a lot of the peices go together. His General Arrangement drawing leaves a lot to the imagination. At any rate, Thank you, Mr. Kerzel--It was very good of you to post the drawings as public domain.--If a man could be hanged for a couple of drawing mistakes on an entire engine, my neck would have been stretched years ago!!!---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Here is a great link to the engine running, built by a 71 year old fellow from New Zealand----Really Neat!!!!
http://www.floridaame.org/GalleryPages/g1h0402.htm


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## cfellows

That's a good, solid runner. There's some inspiration for you, Brian!!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

How many of you guys have seen a home made sparkplug? There really isn't much to them. The main body (the purple/magenta coloured part) is made from Corian, which is a machineable insulating material. Looks like I will be making one for this engine. I have the sparkplug and the valves modelled, now I will finish up the ignition points.


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## Brian Rupnow

Finally got the ignition points sorted out. My God, what a nasty mess that was!!! Kerzel is calling for 1/8" diameter tungsten buttons to be soldered to .031" x 1/4" brass and beryillium strips to make up the point set. I assume that you must be able to purchase that stuff somewhere, but its way out of the ordinary compared to stuff I usually buy.---Same as Corian for the sparkplug.---Oh well, I build these engines to learn things, so it looks like I will learn my share on this engine. I am finished with the modelling now except for the oilers and the carburetor, and there are about 10 drawings that are going to change. Some because Kerzel had them wrong, some that I just arbitrarily changed to suit my choice of fasteners.


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## Lakc

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Finally got the ignition points sorted out. My God, what a nasty mess that was!!! Kerzel is calling for 1/8" diameter tungsten buttons to be soldered to .031" x 1/4" brass and beryillium strips to make up the point set. I assume that you must be able to purchase that stuff somewhere, but its way out of the ordinary compared to stuff I usually buy.---Same as Corian for the sparkplug.--


That would be a TIG tungston and spring brass. Corian, is a countertop material, usually available in sink sized cutouts from a local home remodeller for free.


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## multihobbyguy

I am not sure of the thickness or size of the Corian that you need, but Home Depot has samples in their kitchen design area here in the states. That is their acrylic counter top that they sell. If you have a big orange box store in your area you might stop in and see.


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## Brian Rupnow

bearcar1  said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on the errors you mentioned Brian, I'd be very interested in knowing about them before I get too far into something only to find out it isn't right and could have been corrected for ahead of time. I do like the idea of making the base into a plinth arrangement in order to elevate the engine just a bit, it makes foe a possible good location to stash a fuel tank. ;D
> 
> BC1
> Jim



Bearcar---When I first saw your post about hiding the gas tank in the base, I thought "What a great idea!!!" However, last night as I lay in bed thinking about it, a little light come on---I don't think that these engines have any provision for lifting the gas up to the carburetor. I think the tank has to be level with, or slightly above the carb. Maybe someone else more knowledgeable can chime in here and help us out???----Brian


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## Jasonb

If you were on this side of the pond I could let you have the corian, I've not turned it but when you mill it you will get loads od white flakes that will stick to everything with static. Not too bad for the sizes we are likely to mill but when I'm using it for counter tops with the router its like confetti. I find it also make svery good durable formers when flanging metal, use it on some gear guards for my traction engine just the other week, you can see the former middle pic top row

I think their "bouganvillia" would be a good match to the colour in your rendering 

If you are stuck for tungsten then Hemingway here in the UK sell small discs for just that use.

Jason


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## putputman

Brian, if you have a cabinet shop anywhere near you, they will probably give you a few chunks of Corian as most of the countertops are made from it and the sink cut outs are usually scrap they throw away.

I have found that my gas tanks on hit & miss engines work better if they are lower than the fuel mixers. If the gas source is higher they tend to flood and the gas will run out if the engine is not running. A check valve sometime prevents the gas from running out but my experience with check valves is they get sticky if the engine is not run fairly often. If you have good compression you will be able to draw the gas up to the engine.

I guess everyone has their preferences.


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## Brian Rupnow

There---Its Done!!! I feel like I had run a marathon!!! I will have to hear from a few more sources about the gas tank setting below the carburetor. I don't have any preferences---I just want it to run!! and its a ton of work to hollow that base out and use it for a gas tank if it won't work correctly.


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## bearcar1

I thought that I read somewhere one could acquire small round bits of tungsten from everyday automative point sets. I don't know, but can they be unsoldered from the follower arm somehow? I have never really paid much attention to how that bit was secured. AFA hollowing out that base for a gas tank Brian, maybe the plinth could be designed in pieces and bolted together with a brass or copper tank inside. Still watching with much interest. When will the chips start to fly?

BC1
Jim


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## dreeves

Brian, I got lots of white corian let me know if you need some. Send me a pm

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

Jim---In the "Building Notes" that Kerzel provides if you follow the link in my very first post, He suggests using the tungsten that you remove from a set of automotive points, and solder it to the brass strips. As far as when the chips start to fly, I'm not sure. I've been down for almost 3 weeks now with a terribly bad back. I put 2 new sinks and tap sets into one of our bathrooms about 3 weeks ago, and I must have pulled or pinched something when I did that. I've been living on Percocetts like they are candies and getting all kinds of x-rays and ultrasounds done over the last 2 weeks. I have to get rid of some pain before I can stand over a lathe or mill for very long.


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## Brian Rupnow

dreeves  said:
			
		

> Brian, I got lots of white corian let me know if you need some. Send me a pm
> 
> Dave


Thanks Dreeves---where do you live?


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## Brian Rupnow

Since I'm already into this up to my---armpits---I'm going to try and go with the ignition points and sparkplug approach, as outlined by Kerzel. I have a set of points out of a Chrysler car in my Webster, and they work just fine. I'm not much of an electronics Guru, but I can find my way around points style ignitions okay. (I've got 50 years of hotrodding behind me to help with the points style ignition).


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## dreeves

Brian,
I live in Southeast Pennsylvania


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## Brian Rupnow

One of the issues I'm facing with this build is whether to purchase the gears or to make them. I purchased the gears for my Webster, and they worked fine, but they cost somewhere between $50 and $75. I want to use 32 pitch gears with 14.5 degree pressure angles. One is a 20 tooth, and one is a 40 tooth. I tried to make my own single tooth gear cutter, and used it with only marginal success, just to see if I could do it. this time I'm wondering if there is one of the disc shaped commercial cutters that fits on an arbor available that would work to cut these two gear sizes. I haven't checked it out yet, but if I could buy one cutter and arbor for somewhere close to the same price as a set of gears, then I could have my cake and eat it too.---


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## gmac

Brian;
For gear cutters you may want to contact these guys - I haven't tried them yet so can't comment;

https://www.traverscanada.com/Default.asp

Garry


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## kcmillin

Brian, I would have to day that purchasing gear cutters is the way to go.

When you buy a $50 gear you only get ONE gear. If you take that same $50 and purchase an involute gear cutter you will have an unlimited supply of gears (for the range of the cutter that is)

I just recently had the same problem. I needed 48 pitch gears. I ended up purchasing a full set through multiple places. It ended up costing me $225 USA . I am extremely happy with my decision. 

Through discussion on this forum involute gear cutters can be used to make bevel and helical gears as well. So the possibilities are endless.

Travers is a good place, very good prices. 

When I purchased the first cutter I needed they sent me a %20 off coupon for my next order. So if you decide to get a full set you could get an incredible deal on them. 

I made a simple arbor to fit a 7/8 collet in my mill. 


This place has them, but they are expensive.
http://www.victornet.com/alphabetic/Gear-Cutters-14-1-2-deg-20-DP-to-48-DP/907.html?id=nZbNDwIv

Kel


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## kcmillin

I could not find the gear cutters on the Traver Canada website, but here is the Link for Travers in the US.

These are 32 pitch 14.5 degree, and a very reasonable price.

http://www.travers.com/skulist.asp?...evel3+id+30188&AttribSel=Pitch+Diameter='32"'

Kel


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## Jasonb

You won't get away with one cutter you are going to need a #6 & #3 to cover that number of teeth.

And back to the sparkplugs, you can buy 8mm plugs that would not be far off the 5/16 on the original drawings.

Jason


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## lathe nut

Brian, this number I posted is a set of gear cutter on e bay, I just got a set from them, Lathe Nut, Item number: 200521830070


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## Brian Rupnow

I am looking st the cylinder/water jacket as the most complex thing to start with. Since everything has to be "true" to the cylinder bore, I think I will do it all on the mill. I will milll the base side first to use as my "Witnes surface" and mount that surface to an angle plate to do the 0.950 thru-bore, the 1.00" x 1/8" deep register diameter, and the 1.311 water jacket undercut, and to face off that end of the block and put the 6 threaded holes in which hold the cylinder head in place. Then I will machine a 0.950 round bar x 5.25" long to fix into the bore, with about 1 1/2" sticking out each end , and do the rest using the rotary table. Kerzels dimensions on this part are all okay except for the two #6-32 holes used to mount the ignition points. They move because of my desire to use only #5-40 and #10-24 fasteners on this project.


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## Brian Rupnow

Every once in a while, something happens which absolutely confirms my faith in the inherent decentness of people. A gentleman in central USA has volunteered to make the gears I require and send them to me!!! Up People!!!---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I've had a big old chunk pf 1 3/4" thick aluminum plate setting around here for a year or so. My first step was to square up two adjacent sides using first the end, then the side of a 1" diameter end mill.


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## Brian Rupnow

I then milled the third side to give an exact finished height of 2.5", milled one side away untill I had exactly 1.5" thick, and then drilled and tapped four #10-24 holes in the side that will ultimately be the base of the cylinder housing. Now I am ready to set the part up on an angle plate to machine the 0.950 hole thru it. I do it this way because I don't totally trust my Tilt a whirl vice to hold things truly square.


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## Brian Rupnow

This is a rather dreadfull picture, in which I was attempting to show the 3 bores in the cylinder housing (water jacket). I drilled though with progressively larger drills, starting with 5/16" and ending with 3/4", which was the largest drill I have. This was stretching the limit of what my small mill will do without blowing a fuse, and it was compounded by the fact that my quill travel is only 2", while I was going through material 2 1/2" thick. --this meant a lot of running the head up and down the column as well as using the full quill travel. I used my boring head to go all the way through at 0.950, knowing that if I didn't get it dead on 0.950. I would be turning the outside diameter of the cylinder and could turn it 'to suit". The 1.00 diameter c'bore x 1/8" deep presented no problem. But when I got to the large c'bore about 1/3 of the way down the bore, I thought----Hmmmm---How the heck do I do that??? I zeroed out my depth vernier on the mill, cranked the offset on the boring bar down to a point where it would fit into the bore, ran the quill down to 1.125", backed off the advance screw on the boring head untill I could just feel the boring tool touching the inside wall of the bore (All this of course with the machine turned off), For every full turn of the adjusting screw, my boring bar advances 0.100"---So---I advanced it 1/4 turn which of course created big interference with the inside of the bore, then turned the quill by hand untill I had one full revolution completed, then turned the mill on at very low speed and gradually increased the speed untill it was turning without dragging, then repeated the process untill I had reached the bore which I wanted 1.311". Of course I had no way to measure this, s I was counting divisions on the tiny dial on my boring head. About this time, I began to realize that I should have done this in the four jaw chuck in the lathe. Oh well, live and learn!!! Once I reached the desired diameter, I measured the length of carbide on a similar boring bar and seeing as it was 0.25", I set the mill for a mid range RPM and backed the quill up 1/4" to give a counterbore 1/2" long as per the drawing for a water passage. I certainly don't recomend this method to anyone else. It works, but its kinda like wiping your a$$ with your elbow!!! It should have been done in the lathe using the 4 jaw chuck. Oh well, I "Goterdone" and its all hidden when everything is assembled. I'll know better next time!!!


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## bearcar1

"......kinda like wiping your a$$ with your elbow!!!"

 Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof} Rof}

oh good lord! that is hysterical!  


BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm not at all sure that I'm going about this the right way, but Hey---Its working. Love that rotary table with the chuck mounted on it!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm trying out a new tool that I haven't used before----A ball nosed end mill. (you can see that I have dyed it red so I don't keep picking it up and trying to use it in places where I want a conventional flat ended cutter.) It works very good to form a radius, and I'm pleased with that. However, I have found that if you have to mill away any flat area to get to the area where you want the radius (as in the attached picture) it leaves a number of small ridges behind it. They are very small ridges, so I;m sure they will come out with a bit of filing. I really wish I'd bought a rounding over tool to do the outside edges of the water jacket, but I didn't.---Instead I have a 45 degree chamfering end mill, so probably that is what I will use.


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## cfellows

One thing I really like about your projects is that you keep moving at a steady pace. It's great to find regular updates and watch your projects move along... no time for boredom. Not sure where you find the energy, but your time and efforts are much appreciated.

Chuck


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## rleete

cfellows  said:
			
		

> One thing I really like about your projects is that you keep moving at a steady pace. It's great to find regular updates and watch your projects move along... no time for boredom. Not sure where you find the energy, but your time and efforts are much appreciated.



Hey, I give regular updates, too. Once a year whether I've accomplished anything or not!  ;D

It does sometimes seem that Brian neither eats nor sleeps for days at a time. He's a bit of a machine himself. Certainly does keep the progress reports coming.


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## kcmillin

Great progress Brian, Its lookin darn good.

I have had the same problem with the ball end mill and flat surfaces in the past.

When I want a rounded inside corner I use a regular end mill for 95% of the material removal. But I leave a square of material in the corner which is exactly the radius of the ball end mill I want to use. Then I bring the ball end mill about .0005 above the surface and proceed the cut the square into a radius. This makes a lot less filing and sanding work.

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks for your interest guys. If nobody answered or commented, I would not post. Chuck---I'm not sure about the energy thing. When I've got loads of "'real" engineering work, I don't have energy left to do much playing in my little machine shop. This last 3 weeks "real" work has been thin on the vine, and I have injured a nerve in my back/leg/groin/testicle---take your pick, they all hurt like a son of a gun. I'm living on percocets and laying around on heating pads, but I get bored to tears and end up machining things to keep from going nuts. I've been and had bloodwork, given urine samples, had x-rays, and ultrasounds, and am hoping like hell that they all come back negative.


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## Mosey

Jasonb  said:
			
		

> If you were on this side of the pond I could let you have the corian, I've not turned it but when you mill it you will get loads od white flakes that will stick to everything with static. Not too bad for the sizes we are likely to mill but when I'm using it for counter tops with the router its like confetti. I find it also make svery good durable formers when flanging metal, use it on some gear guards for my traction engine just the other week, you can see the former middle pic top row
> 
> I think their "bouganvillia" would be a good match to the colour in your rendering
> 
> If you are stuck for tungsten then Hemingway here in the UK sell small discs for just that use.
> 
> Jason



We have found that taking the tungsten button off an old set of motorcycle points and soldering them onto your new breaker works very well. The tungsten solders nicely, and the points are free if you look around.


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## Jasonb

If I have a flat area that meets another with an internal fillet I use a radius edge cutter, you can buy them but I grind them on old slot drills it also removes metal far quicker than you can will a bull nose cutter. A fly cutter with a small radius end does the same job






Jason


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## Brian Rupnow

Well there!!! That wasn't so bad. You will see that I missed the radius on the side opposite the cylinder head---there IS a story behind that, but it doesn't bear telling. My internal water reservoir isn't as big as the drawing calls for, but thats because I was limited by the offset in the boring bars I have, and I didn't want to grind one up special for this. When you are reaching through a 5/8" diameter hole to do it, the shank of the boring tool starts to rub the inside edge of the hole before you get to much more than 1" inside diameter at the reservoir, where it calls for 1.311 diameter. (and yes, I did it in the four jaw chuck on my lathe.) I don't think it matters a heck of a lot, as these hit and miss engines don't generate much heat anyways, and some water will be better than no water at all. I was right about the ridges left in a flat surface by the ball nosed cutter---They filed out very easily. No other real surprises or disasters were encountered, and the first part is finished. (Whoops---I just noticed as I posted this that I missed a tapped #10-24 hole in the top of the rounded portion opposite from the head end where an oiler screws in.)


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## b.lindsey

You are coming along quickly Brian and it all looks great too. Am very much enjoying the ride!!

Bill


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## zeeprogrammer

Looking good Brian.
I liked seeing the model work too. Very helpful.
Looking forward to much more.


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## Brian Rupnow

Seeing as how I've taken such great liberties with Mr. Kerzels engine base, and seeing as I've thrown out an invitation to build this project with me, I thought I would post any parts which I decided to modify.---Starting with the engine base. I am not going to turn the base into a fuel tank. to me there is just too much possibility of it leaking or exploding. I will have a seperate fuel tank by itself.





View attachment ENGINE BASE.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

I really like the design of this water jacket. I'm sure though, that with just a light press fit of the cylinder liner into the water jacket, that it is going to leak. Not at the cylinder head end, because the flange around the end of the liner is "squeezed" between the cylinder head and the water jacket by the 6 head bolts. However, at the other end, I can see it leaking. I will have to investigate a high temperature sealing compound to coat that end of the cylinder liner with before assembling everything. Also, the 3 threaded holes in the side of the water jacket break into this area too, so I will need some sealant on the bolts which hold the push rod guides in place.


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## Tad Wicks

Brian, great build, I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread or on his site, so I hope that I am not being repetitious. The discussion of Tungsten for point contacts, it is available at your local welding shop in the form of TIG electrode. The green marked electrode is pure tungsten and the red mark is 2% Thoriated. There are several new alloys being used now to try and avoid the Thoriated, because it is slightly radioactive and the electrode sizes run from around .020 to .125 and up. One thing to remember when using pure tungsten is that it can oxidize over time and not give a good contact, if you are using milli-amps to run a CDI, tungsten is not required, stainless will suffice for contacts, but a conventional coil/point ignition system requires something better. Just tidbit of thought. Thanks Tad


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Tad---Good information. Now that the 3D model is finished, I asked my software about the assembly statistics, and it informed me that there are a total of 81 parts, with 59 of these being "unique" parts.----And thats not counting any nuts or bolts.


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## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I really like the design of this water jacket. I'm sure though, that with just a light press fit of the cylinder liner into the water jacket, that it is going to leak. Not at the cylinder head end, because the flange around the end of the liner is "squeezed" between the cylinder head and the water jacket by the 6 head bolts. However, at the other end, I can see it leaking. I will have to investigate a high temperature sealing compound to coat that end of the cylinder liner with before assembling everything. Also, the 3 threaded holes in the side of the water jacket break into this area too, so I will need some sealant on the bolts which hold the push rod guides in place.



Brian. I have used this product for several years with out a single problem. Its also good for high temp applications and can even be used on IC engine exhaust flanges. I used it instead of the Toro OHV rebuild gasket kit just a few days ago to solve an oil leak problem (its an old 3 speed heavy duty GTS 200 Super Recycler that I just can't bring myself to part with.) It worked like a charm and saved me "down time" and about $35 for the gasket kit. 

Good stuff! Its easy to apply, remove, or replace. Its a modern replacement for old fashioned gaskets, and it will work well to address your IC engine sealing needs.

http://www.supergluecorp.com/pro-seal

Below is what I use.

http://www.supergluecorp.com/pro-se...ers/red-hi-temp-rtv-silicone-instant-gasket-0

Its about $4 a tube at Harbor freight!

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=pro+seal

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

MetalButcher---Thank you for the information. I think I can get that locally. If not, I will order some from the website.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I had to go over to the south end of Barrie this morning to discuss a new design job with one of my customers. All of the tooling shops in Barrie are over in the south end, about as far from where I live as you can be and still be in the same city.---So---I stopped at one of my favourite tool shops and bought a "Rounding Off" milling cutter. I've never used one before, but it looks like it will be just the cats meow for cosmetic edges on some of the things I build. It will get tried out soon on the water jacket for this Kerzel engine.


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## mklotz

I'll look forward to reading how you go about setting it relative to the workpiece. I have my own procedure for doing this but I always like to hear how others approach a new-to-them subtle job. Often there is great wisdom in such revelations.


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## kcmillin

I too am interested in how you are going to register the corner rounding cutter.

I have a set and thus far I have only Eyeballed them to "Close Enough" I would imagine that measuring the cutter would help out quite a bit.

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

Well---Let me see---the cutter is listed as being a 5/32" radius cutter. So--If I bring the end of the tool down to touch the top of my part, set the vertical travel dial indicator to "0", then advance the quill 5/64" that should put the center of the curved cutting face in line with the top surface of the part. Then I move the part in untill it just "kisses" the edge of the cutter, and feed in 0.010 increments untill the resulting radius is where it "Looks good". Take note of the total amount that I fed the part into the cutter, and use that figure to set up cuts on the other 3 sides.---am I close????


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## Jasonb

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Well---Let me see---the cutter is listed as being a 5/32" radius cutter. So--If I bring the end of the tool down to touch the top of my part, set the vertical travel dial indicator to "0", then advance the quill 5/64" that should put the center of the curved cutting face in line with the top surface of the part. Then I move the part in untill it just "kisses" the edge of the cutter, and feed in 0.010 increments untill the resulting radius is where it "Looks good". Take note of the total amount that I fed the part into the cutter, and use that figure to set up cuts on the other 3 sides.---am I close????



If its 5/32 radius you need to drop it 5/32 not 5/64, same with the sides, touch an edge and feed in 5/32. In reality you may find that something like 0.090 is whats needed.



Jason


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## Brian Rupnow

Jason---I just started modelling a cutter and a part to show you why you were wrong. Then part way through I realized you were right!!! Egg on face!!! Eating crow now!!!


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## mklotz

Ok, Brian, that's essentially how I do it. Scratch on the inside surface of your eyeglasses - radius = diameter/2.


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## Brian Rupnow

Not a whole lot of exciting stuff happening on Kerzel right now. I managed to get in some real work and have to do my 8 hour stint designing whilygigs for paying customers, then play model machinist between days end and when Jeaprody comes on at 7:30. I picked up a peice of 2 1/2 x 1 1/4" aluminum bar yesterday at one of my suppliers ($10 for half a foot) and got all the holes drilled and c'bored last night. Tonight I flipped the part over and milled the clearance slot for the con rod big end. I don't know why I torture myself by making something like this base from one solid chunk of aluminum, but I like the finished results---so tomorrow night I will mill out the two sides to finish the shape. I guess a little bit of progress each day is better than no progress at all!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I was thinking last night about the cylinder liner for this engine. It press fits into the water jacket, and the piston runs inside it. Normally I build cylinders from 1018-1020 mild steel and use aluminum pistons with Viton o-rings for piston rings (They stand up to the heat and wear just fine). However, with this hit and miss engine, the outside of the cylinder liner sets in the coolant water in the waterjacket, and I'm sure it will rust to some extent, and this rust will be visible through the hole in the top of the waterjacket. What are the pitfalls of using a peice of 316 stainles steel for the cylinder?


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## Brian Rupnow

Well now---Isn't that just Ducky!!! I finished up the base after dinner today. The four "windows" that appeared in the base were a complete surprise to me. When I modelled the base, I just put in a standard depth counterbore for a #10-24 shcs., and no windows showed up in the model. Then when I was making the base, I measured my stock of cap screws and found that they were only 3/4" long. No problem, thought I---I'll just make the c'bores extra deep and avoid buying longer capscrews. I hate it when surprises show up in my machining, but at least this time it doesn't hurt anything. I haven't used my radius cutter on the top of the water jacket yet---I'm rather torn.---I kind of like it the way it is with square corners. I think the next thing I tackle will be the bearing stands.


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## Brian Rupnow

Since I truly an "making it up as I go along" I had to put a bit of thought into how to best make the bearing support plates. They have a diameter turned on them, but there is no good way to hold them, without resorting to the 4 jaw chuck. You can't make one and then split it in half, because you lose the material from the sawcut. I don't want to waste the material to make two. I have resurected an old fixture and modified it a bit to suit this application. I will show you what I plan on doing as I go along. Basically, I start with a 1" wide peice of material, drill and ream a 3/8" hole in it to fit over the center register on the fixture, and the 3/16" pin on the fixture fits into a hole in the 1" wide material to act as a drive key. Then after I have turned the diameter I complete cutting out the profile of the plate and the 3/16" hole gets cut away.


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## Brian Rupnow

This is what the bearing supports start out like---I've just got enough info on there to shape the profile and to drill and ream the 3/8" and 3/16" holes. This drawing is giving me fits!! There is a mistake on Kerzels drawing, which I willingly copied when I was making my models, and only noticed it tonight. Kerzels dimension of 0.608" has to be 0.615 to make all of the other dimensions work out correctly, to satisfy the 1.221" and 0.75" and the 1.00" and the 0.415" dimensions. I'm not sure what results this would have had on the finished engine, probably none. But Damn, it makes me crazy when my drawings don't make sense.


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## Brian Rupnow

This is where I ultimately want to end up. You can see the 0.615" dimension on this drawing.


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## lathe nut

looking great Brian, thanks again for the how to photo's and the drawing, you make it look so easy to do, Lathe Nut


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, so far, so good. My fixture to turn the bearing support stands seems to be working well. A lot of breath holding and multiple stops for measureing, but one down and one to go----


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## Brian Rupnow

I don't have a sine bar set up to determine angles accurately, and although my vice will tilt, I don't really trust its protractor to anything other than an approximation. Failing anyother way to do it, I scribed my intended cut line on the side of the bearing stands, set a 1/8" thick parallel on top of my vice, and eyeballed it to a point where the scribed line was parallel with the top of the parallel and tightened the vice there. I must mention here that I had the two bearing stands dowelled together with short peices of 3/8" diameter and 3/16" diameter stl. dowels in the reamed holes I had used on my turning fixture.


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## Brian Rupnow

And it was a good solid set-up. (for you sharp eyed guys, that 3/8" dowel was actually brass). I went ahead and "milled to the line". (That bit of brass and the black shim were put between the two frame halves as I tightened the vice to keep everything "true" under the power of the vice jaws.)


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## Brian Rupnow

Here I am picking up the center of the 3/8" diameter "Half hole" in order to position the drill head to drill the holes which will be threaded to hold on the bearing caps.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here we have the finished results. Everything worked out----If I were doing it again I would have used #5-40 screws to hold the bearing caps on. As it was, I used #10-24, and consequently ended up with another small "window' opening up in the side of the bearing support frame. This will not effect the operation of the engine, and will be mostly hidden by all of the other bits and peices which bolt to the sides of the engine. I simply file this information under the "watch for that the next time" category and keep moving foreward.


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## Jasonb

Brian, is there also a clash with the bearing cap screws and the ones comming up from below, I noticed this on your drawing but assumed you had just used a standard image for the threaded holes and would actually stop short on the build but it looks like you have drilled the tapping holes a lot longer than the threads?






Jason


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## Brian Rupnow

Yes Jason, there is a clash exactly as you show. In reality it doesn't cause a problem as the bolts can be shortened up a bit if I have to---remember, they only go in as deep as the threads show. I drilled and tapped the mounting holes in the underside of the bearing supports first. When I flipped them over to drill and tap the top surface where the bearing caps go on, I first ran a 1/8" end mill down full depth where the new hole had to go to keep my drill from trying to wander off into the already existing hole. Then I drilled the required hole, and as I expected the drill followed the hole created by the end mill. Then I mounted the tap in the drill chuck on the mill and rotated it by hand, depending on the quill to hold the tap "true" so it wouldn't try to run off. It all worked out fine.


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## cfellows

Brian, I thought those little windows were deliberately done to add a little decorative bling to the side of the engine...

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Without getting into it too deeply, here are a couple of shots of the bearing caps being machined on my rotary table. I am using the same fixture I used yesterday to machine the bearing stands, with the 3/16" diameter pin acting as a drive key to keep the part oriented to the chuck. The peice of plate has a 3/8" hole drilled and reamed in what will eventually become the 9/16" diameter hole for the crankshaft bearing, and a 3/16" hole drilled and reamed in an area that will be eventually cut away for the 3/16" drive pin in the fixture to fit into. I started with a 2 flute 3/8" dia. endmill and cut all around the radius shown in a series of 0.020 plunge cuts, cranking the rotary table through the pre calculated degree range. After I was all the way thru the plate, I switched out to a 4 flute end mill and repeated the process, all in aid of getting that nice rounded top on the bearing cap and that nifty 1/4" radius where the cap transitions from the round top into the flat surface under the bolt heads. This is the first time I have used the set of reversed jaws that came with the 3 jaw rotary table chuck when I purchased it. In fact, I couldn't remember if it had came with a set of reverse jaws, but luckily I found them right away, otherwise it wouldn't have opened wide enough to hold my fixture.


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## Brian Rupnow

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Brian, I thought those little windows were deliberately done to add a little decorative bling to the side of the engine...
> 
> Chuck



Great Idea Chuck!!! Thats what I'll tell anybody who asks about them.---Either that or "Oh, they're for added ventilation, to keep from a build up of pressure from the journal lubrication!!!" ;D ;D ;D


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Great Idea Chuck!!! Thats what I'll tell anybody who asks about them.---Either that or "Oh, they're for added ventilation, to keep from a build up of pressure from the journal lubrication!!!" ;D ;D ;D



I like that even better! ;D

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

And there we have it---Two beautifull bearing caps finished. Now you see why I left the hole for the crankshaft bearing at 3/8" diameter. I have found, invariably, that the holes never line up the way they need to when I make the bearing rest and the bearing cap in two seperate operations. The fix???----Make the bore undersize, assemble everything, bolt the engine down soundly to an angle plate, and line bore or at least line drill and ream when everything is together. Thats it for today---grandkids are coming over for dinner and grandpas going to be in deep do-do if he doesn't get upstairs and held grandma clean up the house.


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## steamer

This is a great build Brian. The design is a good one from what I can see....complicated enough for interest and adventure, but unreasonably so.  And bar stock!

I already downloaded the plans for review over libation.. ;D

Dave


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## cfellows

I don't understand, Brian, they lined up in the drawing... ???

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

cfellows  said:
			
		

> I don't understand, Brian, they lined up in the drawing... ???
> 
> Chuck



I have never yet figured out how the heck that happens. Rather than torture myself overly much about the fact that it DOES happen, I have come up with a plethora of work arounds, so that by the time I'm finished, nobody knows but me that it happened!!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

And there we have it---Nicely "align-bored" to the finished 0.562" diameter. I didn't take any "in process" shots, because the method I use is ugly, nasty, involves an angle plate bolted to my mill table, an old C-clamp, and a great big honkin old vice-grip style welding clamp. I didn't want to make any of the senior machinists on this forum weep, so just lets say "I got it done". Not sure when I'll do more, but probably sooner rather than later. Just not sure what yet.----Brian


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I have never yet figured out how the heck that happens. Rather than torture myself overly much about the fact that it DOES happen, I have come up with a plethora of work arounds, so that by the time I'm finished, nobody knows but me that it happened!!!!



I'm with you, Brian. Drilling holes exactly where and how I want them is not my strong suit. So, I tend to use the brute force method, much like yours.

Chuck


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## briankenyn

A beautiful job, Brian, and I clearly see your point- in fact, it brings back memories!
Thanks,
Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

In the interest of doing at least one thing each day, so as not to lose momentum, tonight I tackled the cylinder head. Looking around my junk boxes of "free stuff" I discovered a gnarly old chunk of 2" diameter hotrolled steel shaft about 4" long. I'm pretty sure its just 1018-1020 mild steel, but my poor lathe groaned and squealed and shuddered, getting it turned down to 1 1/2" diameter, but I triumphed in the end. I think I have to either go and buy 3 or 4 new brazed carbide tools, or at least take the 3 or 4 that I do have somewhere to have them sharpened. Lord, but its nasty, turning steel when I'm so used to working with aluminum and brass. I think I will try and find a peice of 316 stainless to make the cylinder liner from, because contrary to what I said at the beginning of this thread, the water in the reservoir does come in contact with the cylinder liner, and I don't want it to rust. Maybe someone who has a knowledgeable opinion can speak up about that. I am going to use Viton o-rings for cylinder rings, same as I did on the Webster, so I don't really need to use cast iron like Kerzel calls for. I'm thinking either stainless or even just mild steel for the cylinder liner, and aluminum for the piston and con rod.


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## Brian Rupnow

No machining content tonight, as I just finished off a bottle of Australian Shiraz wine with the salesman who sold me my new natural gas furnace 3 weeks ago. He brought it here about 2 hours ago with best wishes and a thank you for purchasing my furnace through his company!!! A very nice man from Sri Lanka by way of England. However, lots of new stuff to report on. I had to go across to the south end today to take a disc to a customer, so I bought 5 new carbides for my lathe form my favourite tooling supplier. Four conventional tools and one which may be for threading, but I will use it for the occasional reverse shoulder that a conventional carbide won't reach to. I stopped by one of my machine shops that builds a lot of the bakery machinery I design, and begged a remnant of 316 stainless (1.25" dia.) to make my cylinder liner from. I then stopped by another shop and purchased (I hate that word) a length of 3/4" bearing bronze for my main bearings. Kerzel calls for sintered bronze, but since the plans call for oilers on each journal, I'm sure standard bearing bronze will work just as well. Also, in the picture, you can see the cylinder head which I parted off last night. (That was such a harrowing experience, that I accomplished nothing else the entire evening.) I have found a secret to parting off mild steel with HSS tooling---Plunge cut about 0.100". then move the tool over about half the width of itself towards the off-cut side and plundge 0.100 plus another 0.100. Keep moving the tool back and forth and plunge cutting---This seems to give sufficient chip clearance that the lathe doesn't bind up, break the tool, and scare me to death in the process!!! Tomorrow evening, when I can take a more SOBER approach to machining, I will make the main bearings and install them, and get a start on my cylinder liner (Thats what the carbides are for.) I asked some senior machinists today if there were any secrets to machining 316 stainless, and they said "Lower than normal RPM and lots of coolant. Its okay to drill and ream with HSS tooling." I have never machined 316 stainless before, but I am willing to give it a try. Thanks for looking, will post more tomorrow night.----Brian----- and yes, the banana and the cookie (whch you can see the corner of) are my supper!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

TaDa!!!! We have a 316 stainless steel cylinder liner!! I used one of my new carbides to hog it down from 1 1/4" diameter to 1", then cut the rest of the way down to 0.955 with one of my HSS toolbits, because they give a far superior finish. I ran the lathe at 550 RPM for the heavy cuts and then jacked it up to 950 RPM for the light finishing cuts. It machined very well. I took my time and used lots of spray on lubricant as I went along. To do the bore, I drilled through with a 1/4" drill in the tailstock chuck, then went up 1/16" at a time untill I got to my largest drill, an 11/16" monster. Since the tailstock travel on my lathe has only about 1 3/8" travel, I had to go through all the steps twice to get through the liner, which is 2.28" long. After I had drilled all the way through at 11/16" diameter, I used a carbide boring tool mounted on the toolpost to take it up to 23/32" dia., then finished it all off with a 3/4" reamer mounted in the tailstock chuck,and used lots of cutting oil at 250 RPM. for my first time ever machining stainless steel, it went very well.


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## kcmillin

Veyr nice Brian, Is that a reamed surface in the cylinder, or did you hone it or lap it somehow?

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

Kc---Thats just a reamed finish with an HSS reamer and lots of oil at 250RPM.


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## cfellows

Good job on the cylinder liner. As much as I hate boring, I might have to try stainless. Do you have a picture of the HSS cutter you used on the bore?

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---all my HSS reamers look like this. I buy them at BusyBee tools generally. They work extremely well and leave a very good finish at relatively low RPM and lots of cutting oil.


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## fcheslop

Hi Brian,for the spark plugs I use 20mm ceramic elect fuses just remove the ends and you have a nice insulator I think you can also use TIG welding insulators but have never tried them myself.The rust you mention on the liner Iv never had any problems with my Little Angle in fact it runs so cool I don't use water any longer.
best wishes Frazer


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Chuck---all my HSS reamers look like this. I buy them at BusyBee tools generally. They work extremely well and leave a very good finish at relatively low RPM and lots of cutting oil.



Sorry, Brian, I misread your post. I thought I read that you used a hss steel cutter in your boring bar, but you were talking about the outside. What kind of carbide insert do you use on your boring bar? I'm asking because I have a difficult time getting a good finish with my collection of boring bars.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---Just cheap Chinese brazed carbide boring tools. I don't get a good finish with them either. I bore close to final size and then ream with an HSS reamer like the one in the picture.


----------



## bearcar1

Brian, you gotsta' get you a coaster or something instead of your prints! Now how are you going to get those rings out? :big: :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Bearcar---You're right. The whole friggin world gets to see what a slob I am!!! That corner of my desk suffers a lot of indignities. When I'm working on "real work" its my reference desk. When I'm building something for myself, it acts as a catch all, and most of my pictures are taken right there because I have a goose-neck lamp mounted directly above it. When I am working for hours on end at my computer, my big old tomcat gets lonely so he jumps up and sleeps there while I'm working.----Just have to watch the old bugger though, because he loves to chew up my erasors. He's the only cat I've ever seen with a rubber fetish. The wife got a new pair of flip-flop rubber sandals last year and the cat Eat one of them. I'm not too concerned about the coffee stains on the prints. Those are the original drawings by Kerzel that I downloaded from his website and used to build my 3D models of the engine. When I go to actually machine a part, I create new drawings for myself based on my 3D models, because the dimensions I need are not always the same as the dimensions Kerzel provides. Thanks for checking in.---Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Tonights offering to the machining Gods---A set of crankshaft bearings. a rather blurry picture, but you get the idea. Machined from 660 bearing bronze. Nothing exotic here. Again, they are drilled and reamed to 3/8" diameter. After permanent installation in the engine I will line-ream them to the finished bore of 7/16".


----------



## NickG

That is looking fantastic Brian, i've been away a few days and you've made loads of progress! :bow:

Will be watching this one for sure.

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Well, the bolt pattern in the cylinder head matches the tapped holes in the cylinder/water jacket body.---thats always a good sign----now I'm off to downtown to buy some super duper hi temp silicone and get the cylinder liner pressed into place.---And yes, I still have to drill the intake and exhaust ports in the cylinder head.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Here we are, drilling and reaming the ports into the cylinder head. This is the one area where my "Tilt a Whirl" vice really shines. There are probably many other good ways to perform these angular set-ups which I require occasionally, but for my purposes this vice is just great.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The cylinder liner is installed!!! Have to admit though, I scared myself on this one. I bought a tube of high temp silicone gasket maker, coated the i.d. of the water jacket, set it up on my anvil (I don't have a hydraulic press) and set a peice of 1" dia. brass with a 3/4" register turned on one end of it into the end of the cylinder liner to act as a drive bushing, and layed into it with my 4 pound hammer. I had about .003" interferance fit. About half way in, it decided "Thats it!!! I'm not going any farther!!!"---Now what????----Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Went over and picked up the 8 pound sledge hammer. That did the trick. I'm not sure if the liner totally bottomed out on the back of the register or not, but I didn't want to destroy anything so I quit. Its setting in my vice right now with as much pressure as I dared to put on my 3" vice without busting it, to see if it will go in any farther ot not---I'll let it set "under pressure" for a couple of hours and see if it goes in any farther. According to all the measurements I took before hand, there should be about 0.10" of cylinder liner extending past the cylinder head side of the water jacket. I measured about .038 after it was assembled. This is not really a big deal. The engine will work just as well with a bit more cyl. stuck out at that end as it would without.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

That was too much interferance fit. I've been machining for 2 years now, and I find that I always machine fits one of two ways. Either just a bit too big--(As in the current case) or too damn small, which means throwing the part away and starting over. I knew that was too much interferance, but I didn't want to chance turning off .002" and ruining the part. I wasn't too concerned, because it was stainless steel going into aluminum with some slippery old silicone sealer between the two. The bore did close up about .0005. I ran the reamer thru again and that fixed it.


----------



## cfellows

I have a tough time with interference fits as well. I do have a 20 ton hydraulic press that can be mighty persuasive, but I've had to discard more than one part because it was either too big or too small. I usually like to heat the outer part first so it makes getting the two parts together easier.

Chuck


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## krv3000

HI all i can say is ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo thats brill


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## Brian Rupnow

Should have quit while I was ahead.--I may have just made a complete "balls-up" of the one peice crankshaft. I layed it out carefully, marked where to cut it, began cutting it---almost had the offending side cut away---then realized I was cutting away the wrong side!!!! I stopped before I had completely cut it away, and hopefully left enough "meat" on it that I can still save it. I won't know for shure untill tomorrow. Its not a disaster---I bought a length of material twice as long as I needed. Tomorrow I'm going to weld on a short peice of stock to fit between the chuck jaws and act as a drive key, because there is nowhere to put a lathe dog on this thing. The part which I almost cut away has to have the centers in it to turn the con rod journal. Then it does get cut away. Ah, Hell---I've worked enough today!!!!


----------



## bearcar1

Sounds like you need to take a day off Brian. Get away from it for a bit. Those types of mistakes get made way too easily when one is either in a hurry or is getting tired or both. Especially for someone such as yourself that *knows better*, now "go to your room young man". Boy don't that make me sound just like a mother? ;D

Hope you are able to recover from that slip up, I'm sure you will. Take some good pics along the way, I'd like to witness your progress. 


BC1
Jim


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## rleete

You're not the first to make that particular mistake, and certainly not the last, either. Hope you can save it. Looks like you've got just enough left on there if you take really light cuts. Maybe superglue a washer or shim in there to temporarily reinforce it?


----------



## Maryak

Pat J  said:
			
		

> Spot weld it in a couple of places.
> You can cut it again after you finish.
> 
> Pat J



Took the words right out of my mouth. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This morning we're back in business. One of the off-cuts from the crankshaft body is welded to one of the bits that will eventually be cut away, and extends out past the end to fit between two chuck jaws to act as a drive key.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Con rod journal is finished and "on Spec". A lot of breath holding and sphincster clenching, but so far, so good!!!


----------



## bearcar1

Well done Brian, I'm sure your butt muscles did get a good workout today. I have been dreading doing this step on my engine and it makes me very nervous even thinking about it and then when I see pictures of it having been done it's even worse. You know, kind of like going to the dentist with a toothache and all it turns out to be wrong is a bit of popcorn kernal under the gumline. :big:

BC1
Kim


----------



## Brian Rupnow

After I cut away the extra material which had the centers drilled in the ends to enable turning the connecting rod journal, this is what I'm left with. Now I will put a bolt and a couple of washers and a nut through the center slot to keep the crankshaft from collapsing under pressure and mount the crank in the second set of centers to turn the rest of it.


----------



## bearcar1

Now I have a question. Which 'side' (hand) are you going to machine on? That is the end that is closest to the chuck leaving the end towards the tailstock rough cut and then change ends around so the newly machined end is toward the tailstock and machine the rough cut end in the same manner? Or will you merely leave the piece in place between centers and work both sides without disturbing the piece? hmmm. I would think the former would be the best approach as it would place the least stress upon the opening, even with the strain relief steps being taken. I've never made a one-piece crank so am watching intently as you proceed. Thanks.

BC1
Jim


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Nice big end. :bow:

Happy your big end came through without permanent scaring. ;D

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay---First side is done. Now I will flip it end for end and machine the other end. I don't machine at the chuck end, because the lathe dog is in the way.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thats it!!! I'm done. A bit of deburring and polishing, and trim the ends to the correct length--(I started with stock 1" longer than I needed exactly for that reason---to trim off the countersunk holes in the ends.) Now if I've lived right, and the whole thing doesn't pretzel on me when I remove the clamp bolt, then I'm happy.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hi Brian. That's a mighty fine looking crank you got there! I don't enjoy turning them from solid. Maybe I'm machining at too high of a speed because the webs and rod journal becomes uncomfortably invisible to my eyes.

Good work! :bow:

-MB


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## bearcar1

Brian, what spindle speed were you running when you cut the C'rod journal? (more or less)

(becoming the pest from the West)
BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Highest speed I can run is 950 RPM with that offset load from the lathe dog. All cutting was done at 250, 550, or 950 RPM. I only used the 950 for light finish cuts with lots of coolant or cutting oil, to get a bit better finish.


----------



## cfellows

Nice job on the crank. I always find it very satisfying to look at a finished crank. Just seems like the pinnacle of achievement in metal working.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Before committing myself irevocably by cutting the ends off the crankshaft, I took 2 peices of scrap brass and drilled/reamed a 3/8" hole in one and a 7/16" hole in the other. This was to perform a final "check for fit" to make sure the crankshaft diameters were correct. Both of the 3/8" outer ends were still a bit large, so I set the crank back up "between centers" same as yesterday and VERY carefully dressed them both to a final 0.375" so they would both fit into the reamed peice of brass. The lathe dog fastens down on that last 1/2" at each end which will be cut off, so I'm not worried about marking the crank. When I got to the 7/16" inner ends, one needed about .002 more turned off it, the other end was about .005 undersize!!!   thats not a huge problem---I will line bore the bushings instead of ream them. If one bushing is .005 smaller than the other, no-one will know but me. ;D ;D


----------



## cfellows

Getting a crank, or any OD to an exact finished diameter can be tricky, at least for me. I sometimes wind up polishing the last thou or so with wet or dry sandpaper while spinning the piece in the lathe. Makes for a nice finish, too. Unfortunately, I've also thrown away a lot of pieces because I went to far and cut them too small. 

Also, being a cautious type, cutting the crankshaft ends off is usually the last thing I do after the engine is completely assembled. Sometimes, I never cut them off...

Chuck


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hi Brian, using a custom size bush is a good idea, I like the simple solution. :bow:

Quote ??? ; no-one will know but me. ;D ;D 

You do realize that this is an open forum?, and on The World Wide Web! 

Your too funny. I can't stop giggling! :big:


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## Brian Rupnow

MetalButcher--Hey, we get to have a little fun here too------This is a hobby, its not life and death. I try to give good information, I can be corrected without taking deep offence, and I can be a little funny too. Some of the other forums are full of mean spirited people who frown on any levity at all.


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## Brian Rupnow

Things have stumbled to a halt, for today, anyways. If I had machined both crank journals to the correct 0.4375" diameter, it would have been a simple "Ream in line" job. Now however, I have to bore the bushings, and my long, small diameter boring tool was bent last year by some fool running the end of it into a blind hole whilst reaming. I went across town to the toolshops I deal with, and nobody has one in house. I ordered one, and it will be in tomorrow morning. While I was out, I bought a pair of 2 1/2" machinist clamps for $5.99 each on sale at BusyBee tools, 3 new ends for my deburring tool which I broke 2 years ago, orderd a 6" x 3/4" grindstone (green) for sharpening my carbide lathe bits, and ordered the missing boring bar. Remember a few posts ago where I said my "line boring/drilling/reaming set-up" was too ugly to post a picture of?? Well, in the interest of science, I have decided to post it today, because I had got to the first step of boring my crankshaft bushings and was going to photo document the entire process, before I realized that I lacked the appropriate size boring tool. First I mount an angle plate on the bed of my lathe, making sure it is set up at an exact 90 degrees to the front edge of the table. Then I set the engine base against the angle plate, with one side in contact with the mill table. I then put my big old welding vice grip style clamp on it with a peice of brass under the jaw to keep from marking my engine, and tap the engine assembly down to make certain the bottom edge hasn't drawn away from the mill table when the clamp was tightened. I put a peice of 3/8" diameter stock in the chuck on my mill, and play with the Xand Y coordinate handles untill the 3/8" diameter peice in my chuck slips freely into the previously reamed bushings. Next step would have been to put a reamer or boring tool in place and cut both bushings in one set-up.


----------



## rleete

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> ...tool was bent last year by some fool...



Hey! That same guy does things like that in my shop, too.


Looking good, you'll have a runner in no time.


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## Brian Rupnow

I may have discovered a major "GOTCHA" today with my lathe. I decided that since my mill was tied up with my bushing boring venture, I would throw a peice of aluminum up in the lathe and make a piston. Now I don't have a nice, adjustable height toolpost, so I have to use a variety of shims under my cutting tools to get the correct tool cutting height. My tool was a little low today (Jeez, that almost sounds like a medical condition.)--and when I faced off the end of the aluminum, it left a little tit about .030" diameter in the center. No problem, says I---I'm going to put a big counterbore in that end anyways. I put the chuck in the tailstock, and ran it up close ready to start drilling---and immediately noticed that there was about 0.040" misalignment between the tip of the counterbore and the aluminum "tit". Whoaaaa Nelly---Whats going on here????? I took a close look at the tailstock, and noticed that both adjusting screws in the two peice tailstock were loose, and the tailstock was "drifting" back and forth by about 1/16". Damn, Damn, Double Damn---Why couldn't I have noticed that before I machined the crankshaft yesterday???? Perhaps the vibration from the interupted cuts was what made things loosen up. I put a drop of thread locker on each screw, re-adjusted the tailstock on center, then walked over to the wall and banged my head against it 4 or 5 times!!! I'm not sure what the ultimate effect will be on the crankshaft. I won't know untill I get it in place in the engine and rotate it with a dial indicator on the shaft ends. I just HATE wobbling flywheels on an otherwise good looking engine. In the overall scheme of things its not a real big deal---$5 worth of material and a Sunday afternoon if I have to scrap it. Ah well,----I do this for fun.---just keep repeating---I do this for fun----fun----fun---(Betcha my 90 year old mother (Who seems to own shares in the United Church) would say---'Thats what you get for working on Sunday, son!"


----------



## Brian Rupnow

No progress today. The tool supplier got my boring bar in this morning and the supplier sent him the wrong size. Thats okay though, because I have #1-Some "real" work to do. and #2-A terribly sore back. Leaning over the lathe most of sunday making my ill fated crankshaft has agravated a nerve in my lower back and I'm setting around with a heating pad taped to my computer chair and a gut full of Percosetts. I have to drive over to the far side of Lake Simcoe tomorrow to look at a potential automation job, an old customer from 2005 dropped in today to discuss redesign of a concrete curb laying machine I first designed 5 years ago, and a current customer wants to design a second hydraulic yaught lift. The way things have been the last two years, I don't turn down any paying customers. I will get back to the engine later this week (if my back sorts itself out). When I go over to the south end of town to pick up my new boring bar, Hercules O-Rings have a plant/distribution center over there, so I will stop in and buy a couple of Viton O-rings for the piston and the information on groove width and depth requirements.


----------



## Jack B

Brian you have this best posts on the forum. Tell some one you have a bad back and they have a cure. Well for what it's worth I had one to. I went through the funny pills.exercise.walking and the heating pads. Nothing worked. However I got interested in working in my small machine shop building my first model a steam engine. About three months into the project and the aches and pains were gone. I am almost finished with my second model and I feel great. Try and pace your self and keep on machining and maybe the cure will work for you. Best of luck with your engine it looks great.     Jack B


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Jack, nice compliment. My sore back has more to do with being old and fat and not leading a very active lifestyle than anything else. ;D ;D


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Finally, today my toolshop got in the correct boring bar for me. Tomorrow I will attemp to bore my crankshaft bushings, in situ on the engine. I'm really not very good with this boring head. It has a very small dial on it where you adjust the diameter, and its supposed to be set up so that one graduation on the dial equals .002" on the diameter of what you are boring. Perhaps its just me, but my results with it seem to be pretty "Hit and miss"---pun intended. My back it still badly messed up from last weekends machining marathon, so I won't be doing much. I would like to get the crankshaft mounted, and perhaps next week I can get the o-rings and groove information so I can finish the piston.


----------



## tel

It's coming along nicely Brian - you are waaaay ahead of me. One thing tho', and you've probably picked it up already, Kerzel shows the bore on the small gear as 0.312" - I know you like tight fits  but you'll have a jolly old time trying to fit that on the 0.375" crankshaft.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This whole bushing boring issue has turned into a comedy of errors! Yesterday I reported that my tooling supplier had got in the correct boring bar on his third attempt.--WRONG!!!! He sent me one the correct length and shank size but too large a head diameter. On finding this out earlier today, I called a machining friend Colin, across town and asked if he had what I needed. He said yes, and I could borrow it. Drove all the way across town, and he had exactly what I needed---Except his boring bars had a 3/8" dia. shank, while mine are all 1/2" shanks. Borrowed it anyways, and built a 1/2" o.d. x 3/8" i.d. adaptor sleeve from a peice of brass and finally got the job done.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

So there we have the crankshaft installed. It looks good, but as I had feared, the crankshaft is no good. The fact that my tailstock had moved out of alignment sometime during or before the crankshaft machining operation has given me a crankshaft that has a terrific wobble in it. This is dissapointing, but its not an unfixable disaster. I will use this crank to set everything else up on the engine, and make another crankshaft closer to the end of the game.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

tel  said:
			
		

> It's coming along nicely Brian - you are waaaay ahead of me. One thing tho', and you've probably picked it up already, Kerzel shows the bore on the small gear as 0.312" - I know you like tight fits  but you'll have a jolly old time trying to fit that on the 0.375" crankshaft.


Damn, you're right Tel---I never even caught that one. Somebody down in Pennsylvania stepped up and volunteered to make the gears for me and send them up. They are currently in the mail ---SOMEWHERE!!! I'll have to open the bore on that gear when it gets here. Kerzel made a few mistakes in the drawings. Not real big ones, but ones that show up when I model the drawings in my software----But that 5/16" bore went right over my head. Is this your first I.C. engine?


----------



## walnotr

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> So there we have the crankshaft installed. It looks good, but as I had feared, the crankshaft is no good. The fact that my tailstock had moved out of alignment sometime during or before the crankshaft machining operation has given me a crankshaft that has a terrific wobble in it. This is dissapointing, but its not an unfixable disaster. I will use this crank to set everything else up on the engine, and make another crankshaft closer to the end of the game.



Brian, this may not be problem, but have you done anything to insure the crank bushings will return to thier exact positions after you line bored them? If the bore is a little off center you have created eccentrics that can cause binding if they are not in the exact alignment they were in when you bored them.

Steve C.


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## Brian Rupnow

walnotr--Yes, I have match marked the bushings and the caps rotationally. The problem lies with the crankshaft. If you back up about 10 posts, you will see that I dicovered my tailstock was way out of line with the headstock spindle after I had finished machining the crank.---Brian


----------



## tel

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Damn, you're right Tel---I never even caught that one. Somebody down in Pennsylvania stepped up and volunteered to make the gears for me and send them up. They are currently in the mail ---SOMEWHERE!!! I'll have to open the bore on that gear when it gets here. Kerzel made a few mistakes in the drawings. Not real big ones, but ones that show up when I model the drawings in my software----But that 5/16" bore went right over my head. Is this your first I.C. engine?



Yeah, this is my first go at an IC after 20 something steam engines and two locomotives - must be a slow starter 

I only found it because I wasn't happy laying out the gear centres from 'cold' as it were - decided to cut them before I got too far into the bearings. As you know, Kerzel gives specs for 32 and 48 dp gears, but all I had cutters for were 40 dp - now a bit of mental calculation told me that as my cutters fell half way between his the outside diameters should stay fairly constant with gears of 50 and 25 t - and so it proved, turns out I could have just done the bearings from the drawings. Oh well, the gears are out of the way now.


----------



## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> So there we have the crankshaft installed. It looks good, but as I had feared, the crankshaft is no good. The fact that my tailstock had moved out of alignment sometime during or before the crankshaft machining operation has given me a crankshaft that has a terrific wobble in it. This is dissapointing, but its not an unfixable disaster. I will use this crank to set everything else up on the engine, and make another crankshaft closer to the end of the game.



Brian, that wobble might just be from stresses in the original piece of metal you used for the crank. I would have thought the tailstock being out of alignment would manifest itself as a taper on one or both sides of the journal. If you have a consistent diameter all the way accross, I would suspect warped metal rather than the tailstock. You might be able to straighten the crank with an arbor press. I've been successful in doing that in the past.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---There doesn't seem to be any measurable taper. I will try staightening the crank with an arbor press before I go right at it and build another one, but I'm not terribly hopefull.


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## tel

.. and here they are!


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## Brian Rupnow

Loverly stuff Tel---And now, just to keep things rolling, we have a piston. True, it has no rings yet, but I haven't been across to Hercules O-ring yet to pick up Viton rings and the specs for the grooves. That will come later. I haven't drilled my one side frame on the engine yet for the screw that holds the camshaft stub in position either. I want to wait untill I have the gears, just to be really sure of the center to center distance.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Believe it or not, there's a connecting rod in there---


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Honest---I wouldn't kid about something like this---


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## Brian Rupnow

Son of a gun---I knew it was in there, all along.--(The cap was in a different peice).


----------



## NickG

Great work Brian :bow:


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## kcmillin

Wow, I did not know how small this thing is.

What is the bore and stroke? 

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Wow, I did not know how small this thing is.
> 
> What is the bore and stroke?
> 
> Kel



0.75" bore x 0.8" stroke


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This morning I was out and about and went to all of my metal suppliers. No-one had any 3 1/2" diameter brass, so I picked up a peice of 660 bronze tube 3.5" O.D. x 2.75" I.D.. The flywheels are going to be two peice, with a bronze outer rim and an aluminum center.---Will post drawings as I go along. Also picked up my Viton o-rings and the groove info, which I will put up later.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Seeing as I had less than stellar results with my one peice crankshaft (due to a misaligned tailstock which has since been fixed), I have decided to go with a built up crankshaft. I was out this morning and bought a one foot length of 1/4" x 3/4" cold rolled steel flatbar. I cut two peices slightly longer than 1.5" and with the sides lined up in a pair of vice grips I used my trusty mig welder to but a bit of weld on each end to keep things lined up. I don't really trust my "tilt a whirl" vice to keep things truly flat and square (the jaw kicks up) so I clamped the two welded peices to the mill table with a bit of sacrificial aluminum underneathe them, and drilled and reamed a pair of 0.375" holes.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Next trick was to put the vice back up and put in a 1/32" x 45 degree countersink in each side/each hole to get a good solid ring of silver solder in there. ---I forgot this step while things were still clamped to the table.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Flipped the peices around in the vice and drilled and reamed 4 holes 0.094" through where the shafts will go---


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I cut two shafts 3/8" dia cold rolled x 5" long, put a c'bore in each end of each peice, centered them, set the correct distance between the peices of bar, then drilled and reamed the shafts in place--each time I finished one hole I would drop a peice of 0.094" cold rolled into the hole to ensure no movement. Here you see it before disassembly and clean up for silver soldering. You will see where I am going with this---


----------



## Brian Rupnow

In my opinion, too much silver solder is just enough!!! Now you can see why I left that connecting rod journal the same length as the overall crankshaft. This lets me cut the center of the main shaft away, and set it up between centers to turn all the "extra" silver solder off the con rod journal. As soon as that is finished, I cut off the extra length of the con rod journal from both ends, because I won't need it again.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

After I have cut off the extra length of con rod journal, I set it up between centers again, using a lathe dog this time, and first I turn the ends of the 1/4" x 3/4" bar to a nice radius on the ends, then move over and clean up the cut off stub ends of the con rod journal and clean any "extra" silver solder off the shaft on the side nearest the tailstock. Flip it end for end one time to clean up the side which was previously towards the chuck with the lathe dog on it. I don't have a picture of the next step, which was Mr. Crankshaft and I walking out to my big vice with Mrs. File and cleaning up the silver solder off the edges of the bar. Tomorrow I will take a peice of 7/16" round cold rolled, drill and ream it to 3/8" i.d. on the lathe, part it off to 7/16" long, and Loctite one to each side of the crankshaft, right up next to the flatbar, to fit my already reamed crankshaft bushings. (I have to open one undersized bushing by running the 7/16" reamer all the way through both bushings in place on the engine).


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Brian,
It looks like you've got a pretty stout crank there. Did you happen to run and indicator along it see how straight it stayed? If it's out a little it can be straightened without much trouble. 
George


----------



## Jasonb

One thing I tend to do is fit a packer between the webs when doing any turning on the main shaft. If you put an indicator on the middle of the crank and just wind in the tailstock with light finger pressure you can measure the flex which then gets machined into the piece only for it to move when the tailstock is removed.

Jason


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Pat J---no room---0.375" shaft into a .375 reamed hole. JasonB--no packer required because I was only turning away the silver solder exess. G Britnell---Didn't run a dial indicator on it, but I did set one end up in the 3 jaw chuck, and don't see any appreciable wobble when it runs.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Here is a picture of the built up crankshaft with the large 7/16" diameter peices loctited into place at the bearing area. Beside it is the big chunk of bronze I bought for $30 to make flywheels from---(There is enought there for a LOT of flywheels!!!)---Unfortunately, this was not the end of the story. Something was not truly concentric, and when I installed the crank in the engine, it had a bad bind part way through its rotation. So---back out to the welding bench, heated the 7/16" dia. peices with the torch to make the loctite let go, and removed them. Then made a second pair from 1/2" dia. material, loctited them in place, threw a heat lamp on it for a couple of hours to set the loctite, then put one end of the crankshaft in my chuck and machined both 1/2" diameter peices in place down to 7/16" dia. without taking the crank out of the chuck. Hopefully, this will be the end of the story, as far as crankshafts are concerned. Tomorrow I will get everything adjusted and turning freely, so I can move on to putting ring grooves in my piston and making bronze bushings for both ends of the connecting rod.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

FINALLY!!!! The story has a happy ending. The crank is concentric. The crank doesn't wobble. The crank spins freely. The two #10-24 shcs. that you see directly above the top of the bushings are just long enough to engage the bushings and keep them from getting out of phase rotationally----Additionally, they are "Through drilled" with a 1/16" diameter hole to provide oil to the bushings. (eventually, they will be replaced with proper oil cups as shown on the overall assembly). This has been one Hell of a struggle, but once again, old age and treachery triumphs over adversity. Now I can move on to the piston ring grooves.---Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I've went back and pulled this post foreward from my build of the "Webster" i.c. engine. Here is the "scoop". I went over and picked up two Viton O-rings (one for a spare), and they gave me a photocopy of the page that they based their information on. I chose a 1/16" cross section based on info posted by Longboy (Which in reality is actually 0.070"). So, based on the top line in the chart,--The groove depth should be .055" to .057" and the groove width should be 0.095". A Viton o-ring is good for temperatures up to 400 degrees F.You can see one of the o-rings I got, laying on the chart in the top right hand corner. The new o-rings I got for the Kerzel engines are 1/16" cross section, x 3/4" o.d., so the information regarding the width and depth of the ring groove shown in this post are still valid.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Since the connecting rod is going to have a bronze bushing in it, the bushing has to be split into two peices, just like an automobile. I have never attempted this before, but this is what I did. I reamed the hole in the big end of the con rod to 7/16" diameter, with the cap firmly bolted in place. I then took a bit of 3/4" 660 bearing bronze I had left over from building the crankshaft bearings and turned the o.d. to 0.438" diameter. Then, while still in the chuck, I drilled the center out to 0.350". I set it up in my mill vice and machined exactly half of 7/16" away from one side. Then a trip to the bandsaw to part them off, and I have two half bearing shells with a 0.350" bore. I then loosened off the con rod cap and loctited the bearing shells into place with the split aligned with the split between the con rod and the bolt on cap. Tightened up the con rod cap bolts, and now I will wait an hour for the loctite to set up, then ream the two half shells out to 0.375", which is the diameter of the con rod journal on the crankshaft.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

And here we have the piston, with the ring grooves cut with my parting off tool and the Viton o-rings installed, and the con rod with a brass bushing in the small end and the split bronze bushing in the big end (Not reamed to 3/8" dia. yet.)


----------



## Brian Rupnow

IT ROCKS!!! IT ROLLS!!! It goes round and round and makes CHUG CHUG noises!!! (well not really, that was me going Chug Chug!!!) At any rate, it all goes together, the crank rotates fully without any apparent obstructions, and I am Happy--Happy----Happy to have reached this stage. Next thing will be the two peice flywheels.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Playing with designs for 2 peice flywheel---bronze outer rim, aluminum center. this is simple but rather elegant.---and minimizes rotary table work.


----------



## doc1955

Looking good Brian!!


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## steamer

Yea I'm really liking this build....nice design

Dave


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks for looking, guys.


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## gbritnell

Hi Brian,
Just think how happy you'll be when it makes it own first chug, chug sounds! The most important thing about a project like this is the amount of learning one gets and hopefully it will inspire you to future IC projects.
Looking good,
George


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## ozzie46

Coming along nicely Brian.  Thm: Thm:


 Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I've been a weally, weally, busy wabbit today!!!! Very pleased with the results though, and they are surprisingly heavy little devils!!! I am going to put 3 #5-40 set screws at 120 degrees apart in each hub.


----------



## zeeprogrammer

I'm really looking forward to seeing this run Brian.


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks for stopping by, Zee. This is the time in a build that I really enjoy. All of the big major parts are completed, and I actually have an engine to work on. This is the eleventh?? engine I have built since I started 2 or 3 years ago, and I am beginning to get a "feel" for different stages of the build and how I react to the different stages as I reach them. For me, its exciting when I model them in 3D, as that is the first breath of creativity, even on a project like this which was first engineered by someone else. I get a rush from building the individual parts, and every time I take on another project, I have to learn more and stretch my own knowledge of machining and problem solving. I really like the "problem solving" aspect of this hobby. I've been a design engineer for so many years now (45) that the actual design of any type of machinery isn't that great a challenge anymore, although its still fun. However, this entire machining thing is very new and satisfying to me.----Brian


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## cfellows

Geez, Brian. One day you draw the picture, the next day you build two of them. Where do you find the energy?

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---It took me literally 5 minutes to think them up and draw them. It took the entire day to build them. This included time to go upstairs and change into clean underwear after that 9" chunck of bronze came flying out of my chuck at 920 RPM and went rickoshetting around my 7 foot square machine shop. I don't have a live tube center so I was trying to take VERY light cuts from the stuck out end to get the face squared up. DOESN'T WORK---Won't do that again!!!!


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## cfellows

Yikes! You might have to fabricate a steady rest to hold the outboard end of such things. Or, as you say, a live bull center would work and they aren't very expensive.

(Hope you didn't booger up the bronze too much!) 

Chuck


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## NickG

I like simple flywheels Brian, they look really good and solid for this sort of engine. :bow:


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---I have a beautifull new steady rest which I have never used. I did actually pull it out of the cupboard and adjust it to its greatest diameter, and found that it was still too small to fit over that peice of bronze. It didn't bugger up the bronze at all----one end had a counterbore about 1/2" deep that was no good to me, so I had the jaws INSIDE the counterbored end holding pressure on the part in expansion. I never stand in front of what I am machining. I always stand off to one side towards the tailstock. Its a damn good thing, or I would have a large nasty hole through myself. You're right--those bull centers cost about $80 and you only have to use them once every 5 years.


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## Brian Rupnow

Great news!!! Way back about 3 weeks ago, when I started this engine, a kind gentleman from Perrysburg Ohio emailed me and volunteered to make the timing gears for me. This was indeed a great kindness, as I don't have a set of gear cutting tooling and would have had to buy either the tooling or the gears. He made them, sent them off, and they dissapeared into the black hole which resides at the center of the postal service universe. I had given up on ever receiving the gears, and he had even volunteered to make me a second set of gears to replace the first set. The original pair he sent arrived today, and they are beautifull. Of course, he machined the bore on the small gear to Kerzels drawing, which is wrong, but I can correct that. Thank you, Jim!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

This afternoon we have a couple of brass valve guides, machined and loctited into place. They will be reamed to size tomorrow, in place, and the valve seats cut in the head at the same time to maintain concentricity. These were easier to build than they were to photograph. I am not a very good photographer, and it took my 3 tries with 2 different digital cameras to get this rather lousy picture.


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## bearcar1

> ......... I am not a very good photographer, and it took my 3 tries with 2 different digital cameras to get this rather lousy picture.




Good thing you did not quit your other job then Rof} Rof} Rof}

sorry Brian, I had to. :hDe:


Looking good so far.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Question----The valve guide has to be drilled and reamed "in place" in the cylinder head, and the valve seat (which in this case is machined into the cylinder head) has to be machined at the same time to guarantee concentricity. Okay---not a big problem---I set the cylinder head up in my mill upside down, indicate off the reamed hole for each guide to find the center, and then drill and ream the guide. But what do I then use to cut a 45 degree taper for the valve seat in the cylinder head? All I can think of at the moment is a 90 degree metric countersink tool. And no, I don't want to make a special one time only peice of tooling. Any suggestions, or do I go with the metric countersink?


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## Maryak

Brian,

The countersink sounds OK to me, just be wary of chatter. The other easy option is to grind an ordinary jobbing drill to 90o included angle using the inside corner of an engineers square to get the angle.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


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## doc1955

A metric counter sink tool only refers to the diameter as metric the angle is still the same as ant other. The counter sink tool you have is it a single flute or multiple flute? I have found the single flute c/sink tools have less chance of chatter. 

Brain your build is looking good!!!
I know what you mean with the camera I'm not to good with the beasts either and it's pure luck if I get a good shot.


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## cfellows

Brian, I've used a 45 degree milling cutter which should work the same as a 90 degree counter sink. You could also mount the head in your 4-jaw chuck with the valve seat side facing out. Then use a drill and reamer in the tailstock to drill the hole for the valve stem. Finally, cut the 45 degree valve seat with a tool bit on your compound set at 45 degrees.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---I laid in bed with my head on fire for 4 hours last night, and came to the same conclusion as you.--The dreaded 4 jaw chuck in the lathe approach. Actually, that might not be so bad, because I do have a reamed hole to line up on. If I put a 3/16" stub shaft in the tailstock chuck, and adjust the cylinder head in the 4 jaw untill the stub will slide smoothly into the hole in the cylinder that I want to cut the valve seat on, that should do it.---Thanks


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## Brian Rupnow

doc1955  said:
			
		

> A metric counter sink tool only refers to the diameter as metric the angle is still the same as ant other. The counter sink tool you have is it a single flute or multiple flute? I have found the single flute c/sink tools have less chance of chatter.
> 
> Brain your build is looking good!!!
> I know what you mean with the camera I'm not to good with the beasts either and it's pure luck if I get a good shot.



British Imperial countersinks are 82 degrees. Metric countersinks are 90 degrees.


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## doc1955

In the US a 82 degree c sink is used mostly for flush head cap screws 82 and 90 both used here. I guess I'm not sure why it would be any different in British imperial. So if you lay a square over a metric 90 degree c sink it isn't 90 degrees that would be odd I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't work with British imperial I'm just trying to understand why that would be.


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## Brian Rupnow

Have you ever wondered to yourself "Gee---I wonder what a crude, ugly, lash-up looks like?" Well, wonder no longer Bunky---This is what it looks like!!! As my old electrical engineer used to say "TEFC"--Totally Effective, Fantastically Crude. However, it did work great for putting the 0.020 anular groove at the end of the valve stems for the retaining circlips. I decided that before I part the valves off from the main chunk of 5/16" mild steel round bar they are a part of, I should put the groove in. Those 3/32" valve stems are uber fragile. After twice trying to turn the 5/16" stock down to 3/32" and twice having it twist off, I machined the valve head only on each end, then drilled and reamed for a peice of 3/32" cold rolled in each end---then cut half way through the 5/16 round bar just 1/32" above the head of the valve and silver soldered thru the sawcut. my goal is to end up with two valves with "handles" about 2" long on each big end, so that I have something to hold onto when I lap the valves into the cylinder head valve seats (which I haven't machined yet.) After I have attained an air tight seal on each valve, I will cut the handles off and be left with a normal looking valve.


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## Brian Rupnow

Like this---


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## Brian Rupnow

The valve seat cutting adventure was a success!!! I did use the 4 jaw chuck on the lathe, and it went very well. I put a 3/16 peice of cold rolled in the tailstock chuck, and used it as an alignment spud to get the cylinder head where it needed to be, then VERY carefully brought the individual jaws up untill they just touched the cylinder head, then tightened them all incrementally. When it was plain that I had not induced a bind on the alignment spud, I drilled and reamed the brass bushing in place, and then without moving any of my set up I set the compound rest over at 45 degrees and chamfered the individual valve seats. The second one was harder to get a perfect no bind alignment on than the first, but after 2 or 3 trys it too came out very well. Visually, the chamfers are very concentric. The picture shows the two valves in place (with "handles" still attached). I will lap them tomorrow by hand with a fine valve grinding compound, then cut the "handles" off.


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## Brian Rupnow

We have functioning, non leaking valves.-(As verified by "Put your mouth over the cylinder exhaust and intake ports one at a time and blow till you start to feel dizzy!!!"--If no air is escaping unless you manually push the valve stem down, its okay.) The hardest part of the whole thing was A--Finding a place that sold retaining clips this small, and B--Trying to hang on to the darn things to install them!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Gloom, despair, and agony on me---With everything assembled and gasketed, I have no compression. In order to find out WHY not, I machined an adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole and put 20 psi of air on it, with a spoonfull of light oil going in first. The valves are leaking at the seats. Obviously my lung powered test was just not enough puff. Its going to be a bugger to lap them now, because with the "handles" trimmed off the stems aren't much bigger than a mouses dick!!! I went to my local hardware stores tonight to see if they had any small neoprene tubing that would "compression fit" over the stems to give me a bit of handle for more lapping, but nobody carries anything that small. I may have to resort to reaming a 3/32 hole into a peice of 1/4" brass rod and put a set screw in to make a handle for lapping.


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## rleete

How about a chuck from a dremel tool?


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## kcmillin

Brian, I was faced with the same challenge when doing the valves on my Inline.

I used a loose drill chuck from a cordless drill to hole the valve stem.

Here is the series of events.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10986.30

Kel


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## kcmillin

Also, for testing the valves I used a vacuum guage pump for auto use. This method also tests the valve stems.

What you see in the video is what works for the tiny IC valves. I was able to pump it up to 20-25 HG's and it should take a few seconds to drain out.

Kel


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## Maryak

Brian,

I had the same problem.

My solution was to slot the valve base and lap them with a screwdriver.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg120139#msg120139

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg121951#msg121951

Hope this helps

Best Regards
Bob


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## Lakc

Chuck up a fresh pencil and let the eraser turn the valve, or from the backside with a pin vise holding the stem.


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## Brian Rupnow

Great idea about using a pin vice!!! In fact, its a fantastic idea!!! I have this really crappy, non concentric pin vice I bought from Busy Bee, that is no good for anything else (In fact I thought I had thrown it out) but for this, its perfect.


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## zeeprogrammer

Lucky mouse.


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## Brian Rupnow

I seem to have my leaky valve issue fixed. I am assuming that with a bit of run time on this engine, the valves will seat themselves even better. I know that on the Webster, after I had 3 or 4 hours of run time on it, the compression seemed to improve dramatically. This engine doesn't seem to have the same compression as the webster, but then again its brand new and the bore is only 3/4" as opposed to 7/8" on the webster. I would have to assume that the Viton rings must wear in a bit and seal better as well with a bit of run time on them. Now on to more parts manufacturing!!!---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Today I finished the two main metal parts of the sparkplug. That don't sound like a whole lot of work, but I actually used up a goodly portion of the day making those two little peices. I see some Corian in my immediate future if I can find a source for it in Barrie. My valves are sealing much better now. I went across town today and picked up a #4-40 tap and the appropriate drill for it---I will use these to tap set screws into the hubs of the two gears which were made for me.---Brian


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## NickG

Looking fantastic Brian, for all the other engines I've tried making there's still something about an i.c. engine, I won't feel a complete model engineer until I have made one. :bow:

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Nick, for chiming in . As I get deeper and deeper into a build, there is a phnomenon that occurs. Everyone with something to say had already said it in the first ten pages, and towards the second half of my build I hear from very few people. I love it when people drop in and leave a comment. When no-one does, I get the feeling that no one cares and that I'm working in a vacuum. I know this isn't really so, that folks are still stopping by to have a look, but I really enjoy it when people stop by and say "Hi".---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Damn---Silly bugger me!! I was on here the other day looking for a chamfering tool to cut the 45 degree angle on the valve seats in my cylinder head. I ended up using the 4 jaw chuck in my lathe and setting the compound rest over 45 degrees. This morning I found this 90 degree chamfering milling cutter in my cupboard, which would have been perfect to cut the seats in my milling machine, Its dyed red to distinguish it from my other cutters. Moral of this story----Pay attention to the tooling you already have.---Brian


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## cfellows

Every once in a while, I like to go through the drawers and cabinets in my shop. It's like Christmas all over again when I find tooling and project bits that have been put away and forgotten. Unfortunate, it usually starts the wheels turning and I'm inspired to some new project, leaving current projects to languish for a while.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

A fine gentleman from Winnipeg, Canada has just volunteered me a few peices of Corian scrap. Thank you ever so much!!!---Brian


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## bearcar1

I know the feeling you experienced in finding that cutter Brian. My Dad had been buying tools and accessories he thought I would have a use for over the course of many years. Very early on his gifts would get opened for inspection and then returned into the packaging and put away in an obscure corner or shelf somewhere as I did not have a formal work shop at the time. Upon his passing I inherited his machinist and mechanics tool boxes. By this time I had built my shop with plenty of storage and cabinet space. I made a concerted effort to locate all of the treasures he had given me over the years and relocate them to the shop and stored them away there. To this day, I still run across things that I had forgotten about and especially, in the midst of a project, will find that perfect solution in something that he had given me. Almost as if he knew that I would one day require that item. Each and every time that happens I think about him and smile and thank him out loud. I know then that he is still looking out for me and it makes the project I am working on all that more special. "pennies from heaven" I believe is a term they use for that sort of thing, if we all just take the time to realize it. Your engine is coming along nicely and it won't be long I'm sure until it is running, thanks for sharing it with us.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

I spent the lions share of today making little brass bits that are all part of the exhaust valve push rod mechanism. There are only 3 bits there, along with the pushrod itself, which is unfinished. Its a good thing that I don't have to sell this engine to anyone based on the time it takes me to do things, or it would cost as much as a new 350 V8!!! I also drilled and tapped the hub on the small gear with four #4-40 threads at 90 degrees.


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## metalmad

hi brian
your build is looking great
dont ever think us lurkers in the dark dont enjoy every post
keep up the good work


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## cfellows

Wow, you're getting close, Brian.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Todays offering is a rocker arm. This has an amazing number of set-ups for such a small part. And the smaller the part is, the less apt I am to be able to make it come out "exactly as per drawing'. This one will work, but its not as "in line" as I want it to be with the pushrod. The drawing was correct.--Its just that my machining was a bit off. I'm not to concerned. I will build the end that sets over the pushrod up with a bit of silver solder and file it to perfection.


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## firebird

Hi Brian

You are doing some really fine work here. I am enjoying this post. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers

Rich


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks firebird.--Perhaps you or someome else can tell me--I have read on a post somewhere on this forum of a way to treat brass which will prevent silver solder from sticking to it. Its was something really simple that people used, but I can't remember what it was. I want to build up the side of the rocker arm without getting a ton of silver solder migrating to areas where I don't want it.


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## tel

Wite-out, not the water based muck, but the proper spirit based one - you can still get it, I bought a two-pack just the other day.


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## mklotz

Typewriter "White-out" fluid or a soft lead pencil.


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks fellows.---Tel---How is your Kerzel build progressing?


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## tel

nowhere near as rapidly as yours mate, I have got the bearing bases and caps fitted, but not bored yet, and the caps still have to be shaped.


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## kcmillin

Thats a pretty interesting rocker arm Brian. I can see there is a lot of work In that little part. Everything is looking real good, and your coming along very quickly. I cant wait to see all the little "Hit and Miss" parts. Those should be interesting. 

Kel

Oh ya, What's the skinny on the two piece spark plug? I cant figure it out.


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## Brian Rupnow

KCmillin---The sparkplug is being made to plans posted by Kerzel---there is a link to his drawings in my very first post in this thread. I have redone everything in 3D to clarify it for myself, and this is what it looks like. PatJ---I don't like it when it gets this small either. That rocker arm is right on the very ragged end of how small I can work.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay---we gave the "Wite-Out" a try. Actually, it seems to work quite well. If you play the torch flame directly on it, it burns away, but in the areas just outside the torch flame, it seems quite effective in stopping the flow of silver solder. First pic shows the part set up in the vice, with everything coated in Wite out that I didn't want soldered. Pic #2 shows the solder in place, pic #3 shows the finished rocker arm with the excess silver solder filed away.--I think the operation went well. now my rocker arm is cenbtered on the push-rod.


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## cfellows

Nice recovery, Brian. Looks like you intended it that way from the start!

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Hows that saying go, Chuck?---"If you can't be good, be innovative!!!" I think it looks better now than it would have if I had machined it correctly in the first place! ;D ;D


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## Brian Rupnow

This little engine is taking over my life----Today I started the day by making the "Dog" that the "miss lever" engages with to hold the exhaust valve open. Of course the trick was to get everything to slide properly when its all put together without binding. On assembling all the parts, I found that the hole through the brass bit that the push-rod slides in was about .015" too close to the aluminum frame of the engine, thus putting a severe bind on the pushrod. After determining this by the old "cardbaord cereal box shim under the brass bit" trick, I cut a shim out of some brass .015" shim stock and Loctited it to the underside of the brass guide. While the loctite was setting up, I made the cam shaft stub that the cam gear and cam rotate on. After some esoteric exercises to determine what center to center distance would work with my gears, I drilled a hole in the engine side frame closest to the governor side flywheel and mounted the new camshaft stub, and installed the large cam gear. Then with much filing, sanding, and muttered incantations, I assembled the push-rod and guide and "Dog" and got everything sliding properly.---and that has pretty well eaten my Saturday!!! Wife is sick in bed with a cold and the weather outside is cold, wet, and dreadfull, so I didn't give up too much to work in my comfortable little shop.---And Oh Yes---The hole I drilled for the cam stub seems to be in the right spot. When I turn the engine over by hand, the gears mesh okay. There is one "sticky" spot, but I'm certain it will wear in rather quickly, as the gears are made from brass.


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## cfellows

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Hows that saying go, Chuck?---"If you can't be good, be innovative!!!" I think it looks better now than it would have if I had machined it correctly in the first place! ;D ;D



The saying that comes to my mind is, "If you can't be handsome, at least be handy!". Think that's from the Red Greene show.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Tomorrow I am going to make the cam. Kerzel made his from brass, and that does not feel quite "right" to me. Brass is soft, and the cam follower bearing running on it will quickly wear a groove---I think. However, the cam rotates on a steel stationary shaft, so if I make it from steel it will have to have a bushing made for it. I have never made a cam using the method Kerzel outlines in his plans, but it seems like a very novel approach. I will make the cam from brass and then see how it holds up. Perhaps it will be fine. If not, I can always make one fro steel and put a bushing in it at a later date, if required.---Brian


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## swilliams

It's really starting to look the part now Brian. I assume the box shape above the cylinder is for water cooling. How does this work? Is it just an evaporative system? 

Steve


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## NickG

Not far off now Brian, seems like you've got the bit between your teeth and on the home straight. :bow:

Nick


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## tel

> also drilled and tapped the hub on the small gear with four #4-40 threads at 90 degrees.



Lose two of those screws - just put in 2 at 90° - if you install opposing screws to you lose an incredible amount of 'grip' between the gear and shaft. BTW, the second (large) gear should not need any, it should freewheel on its pinion.


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## Brian Rupnow

SWilliams---Yes, it is an evaporative system. Nick---Yes, its coming along. Tel--In Kerzels plans, the large gear has no setscrews, but is pinned to the cam, and yes, it does freewheel. I didn't know that bit about opposing setscrews not gripping as well---thanks.


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## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I have never made a cam using the method Kerzel outlines in his plans, but it seems like a very novel approach.



The method has been around sence the late 30's - early 40's. I used it to make the cam for the V4 and it works great. I used a small diamond file to round over the nose of the lobe. If you go with 5 degrees per cut you will be able to polish out the flats very quickly with sand paper. It seems like a pain for one lobe but for 4, 8 ,16 lobes it really works great.


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, I tried Kerzels method of cam grinding, and like my friend Shania says "That don't impress me much!!!!". For one thing, you can rotate the cam to what you believe to be 5 degrees, but when you go to tighten the bolt up, it grips the cam and rotates it to God knows where. I spent half an hour trying to adjust it to at least give me something that resembled a cam, then said #@%! and took it off the fixture, glued it to a 1/4" arbor, and eyeballed it on my 1" belt sander. I did end up with a cam which I'm sure will work. It only vaguely resembles the dimensions on Kerzels drawing, but it has a total lift of 0.074". Kerzels drawing shows a total lift of .061" I'm sure these little one lung engines don't care all that much, as long as the valve opens and closes at the correct time.


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## Metal Butcher

Brian. Your project is moving right along. 

I don't know if this will help you any, but the few cams I made turned out well using my spin fixture (Spindex clone) to make the cuts, and blended them with a little careful filing. If I remember correctly I used a bevel protractor to check my progress. Can you adjust the lift with the push rod?

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

Todays efforts produced the cam and the spool which the arms on the governor weights and the "miss lever" ride in. The pushrod can be adjusted---This doesn't change the lift of the cam, but what you want to achieve is a few thou clearance between the end of the pushrod and the rocker arm when the valve is closed---just to be sure its closing on the valve seat and not being held partially open by the pushrod riding on the non-lobe part of the cam. If I want to adjust the cam for less lift, will simply sandpaper a little bit off the high point of the lobe.


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## zeeprogrammer

Nice shot there Brian!
You've got some very good looking parts.
(Well, I mean the whole engine looks great!)


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Zee---Your not the first person to tell me how good my parts look!!!!   ;D


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## Brian Rupnow

Just had a very pretty witch and Scooby-doo show up at my door looking for candy!! My grandkids---Hannah the witch and Makayla the Scooby.


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## cfellows

Ain't grandkids just the greatest thing in the world?

By the way, I guess the horse is already out of the barn, but, there is a similar method for making a cam in the mill where you you mount the blank on a rotary table, off center as you did with the lathe. Then you use a boring, cutting on the inside. You make a vertical pass to cut off one side, then you rotate the rotary table 5 degrees, and make another pass. Repeat until you are all the way around except for the lobe.

Look at reply #52 here where I made the cam for my plumbing parts engine using this method...

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6352.150

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Chuck---Greatest thing in the world, and I'm getting our first grandson sometime in February!!! I remembered seeing your post on cam making in the mill when you posted it, but I couldn't really understand it. Now after todays effort and rereading your post, it makes perfect sense. I like your method much better, because it gives you great control over how many degrees the cam is rotated each time. I found my attempt in the lathe today to be absolutely asinine!!! If I have to redo the cam,I will use your method. I will be setting up my rotary table tomorrow morning to make the part on which the counterweight arms pivot.---Brian


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## bearcar1

That picture is priceless. Truly one of the nicer things in life and certainly the best thing about Halloween are the youngsters in their costumes. The younger kids just seem to make the outfits have a life all their own.

BC1
Jim


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## cfellows

Brian, just to give credit where it's due, the cam cutting method using a milling machine and rotary table came from Randall Cox and his Open Column Six engine which was published in Model Engine Builder, Issues 1 & 2.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Today was spent building the "Yoke"---This is the part which rides on the inside hub of the governor side flywheel and provides a place for the counterweight arms to pivot from. Nothing really exotic here, but some nice rotary table and 4 jaw chuck work. After I had finished machining it, I had no real good way to hold it for drilling the pivot holes, so I loctited it to a peice of shaft, then leveled it in my mill vice both horizontally and rotationally to drill the two 1/16" dia. pivot holes. Then a bit of heat from the torch was applied to make the loctite let go, and I pulled it off the shaft with my gloved hand. In the last picture, you will see it mounted on the flywheel. Also in the picture is the worlds smallest sealed ball bearing to become my cam follower (Roto-Precision part Number SI-418ZZ07) It is 1/8" i.d. x 1/4" 1.d. x 3/32" thick----(I couldn't buy a thicker one in that bore and o.d. range). While I was at Canadian Bearings picking the small bearing up, I bought a bag of 100 steel bearing balls, 1/8" diameter. I needed 2, so will have 98 left over---If you need any for your Kerzel build, let me know and they're yours---.


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm considering a change to Kerzels ignition system. Although his probably worked fine, I find the idea of soldering bits of tungsten to spring steel to make a set of ignition points and combining the valve timeing cam with the ignition timeing cam just a tad hoaky. On my Webster engine I used a set of ignition points and a condenser out of an older Chrysler product, and they worked just find. I've got tons of room on the non governor side of the engine, where I can put a cam between the flywheel and the engine body and sneak a set of points in there too.


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## NickG

Looking good Brian,

I think I'll need to pay special attention to these tiny governor parts if I'm ever to do a hit & miss. I know you've done this sort of thing before.

I think using some commercial points is a good idea as you know they'll work and for this application should last forever.

Nick


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## kcmillin

I like your locktite trick Brian. I need to keep that in mind when funny situations arise.

What are the ball bearings for? I cant for the life of me figure it out.

I dont mean to rain on your parade, but I think this bearing is a tad smaller.

http://www.globalspec.com/pix/VerticalNewsletter/med/Dynaroll_v4i9med.jpg

http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/Dynaroll/Precision_Ball_Bearing_Diameter_20mm/99675/1?isPastIssue=true&id={id}&email={email}&md=090618&mh=ee4c12&Vol=Vol4Issue9&Pub=35&LinkId=444089&keyword=link_444089&vid=159499&frmtrk=newsletter


Kel


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## Blogwitch

I will actually be using 1.5mm ID x 3mm OD bearings in a future rebuild of my eggcup Stirlings, about 6 bucks for 10 off fleabay.


Bogs


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## Brian Rupnow

GUYS, GUYS--I was being facetious!!! I know its not the smallest bearing in the world. but ya gotta admit, its pretty damn small.---And here's where it goes---


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## tel

Yeah, I knew where the little ball race was going, but I haven't figured the two 1/8" balls - non-return valve in the fuel line?


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## Jasonb

I think the balls will be soldered to the ends of the governor arms and run in the spool grove.

J


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## tel

Hmmmm .... a logical guess, but they would be another interesting fit if so - the grooves in the bobbin are only 3/32" wide. 

View attachment ScreenHunter_3.bmp


View attachment ScreenHunter_10.bmp


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## Brian Rupnow

On Kerzels detail of the rocker arm there are two 1/8" dia. steel balls loctited into the underside of the rocker arm where it bears against the pushrod and the stem of the valve. I just clicked on his site this morning and it isn't working. I hope it hasn't dissapeared off the internet, but no fear, I have all the drawings copied and transcribed into Solidworks if they have.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Today I worked on the little bits and peices that are the heart of a hit and miss system. I didn't take any "in process" shots, because its only normal milling and turning and tapping---very finicky milling turning and tapping, mind you, but nothing really picture worthy. For those of you who are curious about the mechanism, this solid model shows all the bits in relationship to each other. Centrifugal force makes the weights fly out away from the crankshaft centerline. The weights are attached to arms which pivot, and the pivoting motion causes a spool to slide in a linear motion along the central axis of the crankshaft. A lever is trapped in the OTHER groove in the spool (its not shown here) and this lever is what props the exhaust valve open, causing the engine to "miss" untill it slows down and a pair of springs (again, not shown) pull the weights back in close to the crankshaft. This slides the spool back to its original position and the lever "unprops" the exhaust valve, causing the engine to fire and repeat the cycle.




.


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## Brian Rupnow

These pictures show the govenor weights from both sides of the flywheel in the "low speed" mode, in which the engine would be able to fire.


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## Brian Rupnow

These pictures show the governor weights from both sides of the flywheel in "high speed" mode, where high engine RPM has caused them to fly out as far as they can from the center of the crankshaft, and consequently moved the spool. On this model engine, the spools total travel is only about 0.080".


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## NickG

Looks good brian, these are the intricate little parts that I fear most I think. I can't quite see how it props the exhaust valve open on this design but I'm sure all will be revealed shortly.

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

And here we have the govenor arm---Hereafter to be dubbed the "Kerzel Lever". An ugly looking damn thing, and even as ugly as it is I managed to drill the pivot hole in the wrong place. I filled the hole with silver solder and carried on. This is what rides in the other slot in the spool and pivots to hold the exhaust valve open. I will post a picture of it assembled---Brian


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## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> An ugly looking damn thing, and even as ugly as it is I managed to drill the pivot hole in the wrong place.



I thought it was just me, but I had similar thoughts when I looked the plans over.

It's got more angles than a con artist! :big:

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, after a day of assembling, disassembling, filing, grinding, cussing, and reassembling I have the Kerzel arm in place, doing its thing. Although the end closest to the cylinder head is much as Kerzel designed it, there were serious interferance issues on the end nearest the crankshaft. However, after spending all of today I have it working the way its supposed to. In the picture, the weights are in the "out" position, the Kerzel lever is tipped in at the cylinder head end and is caught under the cam follower bracket, thus preventing it from following the cam, and holding the exhaust valve open. I don't have the return springs on the weights yet, but by gently squeezing them together with finger pressure while rotating the flywheel by hand, they do force the spool in towards the engine centerline, thus tipping the Kerzel arm the other way, and this lets the cam follower follow the cam (under pressure from the spring you see on the pushrod), thus allowing the valve to close. Whew---Its almost as much work to describe it as there was involved in making it!!!


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## cfellows

Any explanation what the extra length sticking out at an angle to the left of the push rod stop is for? I think the whole thing would look a lot better without it...

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---I wondered that myself, but I think I figured it out. It looks like something that can be activated/de-activated with your finger while the engine is running.


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks ever so much to Ken in Winnipeg, who sent me a nice peice of Corian. I could have swore that he said it was going to be blue, but its a nice porcelain white.--Might actually look like a real sparkplug!!! Can anybody suggest lathe RPM and cutting tool type for this stuff? Diameter of sparkplug will be about 3/8".---Brian


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## kjk

Actually I do have some speckled blue stuff, but it didn't seem appropriate some how.


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## GailInNM

It is sometimes helpful to override the governor while adjusting mixture.
Gail in NM


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## cfellows

GailInNM  said:
			
		

> It is sometimes helpful to override the governor while adjusting mixture.
> Gail in NM



Hmmm. I've tried overriding the governor on my hit n miss using my finger and it was altogether scary. I guess you could maybe speed up or slow down the engine by pushing or pulling on the lever.

Chuck


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## NickG

I was wondering exactly the same thing! Guess it makes sense, you're working with the springs so shouldn't be too hard to hold it back, the governor should be run with a wide open throttle shouldn't it, will this engine have a throttle brian, guess there's not much point?

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

I made up a small aluminum adapter plate which allows me to install a set of automotive ignition points on the side of the engine opposite from the governor flywheel. The points are for a Chrysler product---not sure what year, but they are distributed by BWD Automotive in Long Island N.Y. I bought them at PartSource. Numbers on the box are 18-4126-8 A110P. these are the same ignition points I used on my Webster I.C. engine. This is the adapter plate, but it will not work on Kerzels engine as he designed it. I redesigned the base to be much deeper than Kerzels, so I wouldn't have to mount the engine on a wooden block like Kerzel did to let the flywheels clear.


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## Brian Rupnow

Here are a couple of shots of the adapter plate and the ignition points mounted on the engine. I will build the cam tomorrow---Its the same as the cam on the Webster, only with a 3/8" bore instead of the original 5/16".


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## Brian Rupnow

And here are the points tucked in behind the flywheel---they fit great!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I had to stop at Brafasco, my nuts and bolts store this afternoon to pick up the flathead capscrews that hold that adapter plate to the engine. While I was there, I noticed a whole bin full of springs that looked like they might work as governor springs on my engine. I grabbed a pair, and they are the correct length, but they may be too heavy---This is the kind of thing I can never tell about untill I get the engine running. If it goes into "miss" mode, I know the springs were right. If it doesn't, then they were too heavy.---Precise engineering, eh!!! I drove down to Brampton this morning and quoted a design job, and got a confirmation call giving me the go ahead at suppertime. Nice 4 week contract, retrofit design on a big rotary table machine making automotive parts.---I start it on Monday morning. Progress on the Kerzel engine may slow down dramatically. --I took a good look at the assembly drawing this evening, and it looks like the only things remaining are to finish the sparkplug and build a carburetor.


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## Brian Rupnow

Ignition cam installed---Points are shown in open position.


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## cfellows

Just about there... Do you have a part number for those points?

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Just about there... Do you have a part number for those points?
> 
> Chuck



Chuck---Back up one page and look at post #299


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## Brian Rupnow

This is the saga of the $300+ sparkplug!!!!!!!!!!!! First off, here is what the insulator is supposed to look like, and the first step--Corian is cut into a peice 1/2" square x 2 1/4" , and the ends conterbored to accept lathe centers..


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## Brian Rupnow

And here it is in the lathe, between centers--no lathe dog required--The one end fits between the chuck jaws to drive the Corian ---It is not being gripped by the chuck jaws.(There is a center hiding in there too.) the outer diameter has been machined to a "full round" except the bit between the chuck jaws. The ends will be trimmed off in a final step. Second picture shows mew tapping one end.


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## Brian Rupnow

Here we are thru-drilling the 1/32" center hole for the electrode. A few more chapters of turning, and we are ready to assemble it with the two brass bits which form the main body and the threaded rod that screws into the top end to attach a wire. At this point, everything went promptly to Hell, and the insulator broke into 3 seperate peices. I have almost a day invested in this sparkplug----Just because I wanted to be able to say I made my own sparkplug. At my usual rate of billing, I now have $300 invested in this failed attempt at making a sparkplug. What have I learned??? Corian can be easily cut on my vertical 14" bandsaw. It machines very well with conventional HSS tooling at 950 RPM. If you notice the pictures, I was doing all the turning with a 0.094" wide parting off tool. If you ever do this, do the tapped thread and the .031" thru-hole BEFORE turning the o.d. down to its final size. I WILL make another attempt. Then it may well be a $600 sparkplug!!! Oh well, I'm having fun---fun----fun----fun


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## Brian Rupnow

A question was posed on the other forum I post on about why the ignition cam has such a strange shape. I gave a brief explanation that is probably worth repeating here.

The points remain open most of the time. No current is flowing to the primary winding of the coil. When the flat portion of the cam rotates around to the contact block on the points, they close allowing current to flow through the primary windings of the coil. Then very shortly after the points close, they open again, stopping the current flow to the primary coil windings. It is the collapse of the electromagnetic field created by the stopped current flow to the primary winding that "excites" the secondary coil winding and makes it give off a high surge of voltage to create the spark.


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## tel

Thanks for clearing that point up Brian, it's something that was bothering me a bit, being the exact reverse of the way points are usually set up.


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## Brian Rupnow

Marginally better success with the second try at a sparkplug. I got it all together, then went to install the 1/32" rod that I bought from the local hobby shop.---wouldn't fit!!! What the heck---Get out the micrometer. Drill mikes at 0.031 like its supposed to. Rod from hobby shop mikes at .039"---Aw $hit---They sold me 1mm rod. now I have the dilemma---Do I buy a 1mm drill and drill everything out to 1mm or do I try and find some 0.031" dia rod. I need about 3" and I don't know if I can get that in Barrie. I am beginning to think that maybe my machining skills aren't up to making my own sparkplugs. I'll probably buy a 1mm drill tomorrow, as thats the easier of the two routes. Arghhhh--maybe I'll end up buying a plug after all!!!


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## dvbydt

1/32" TIG Tungsten?

Ian


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## bearcar1

As "funky-doo" as it sounds, could you try to reduce your 1mm rod down in diameter? I know it is a bit of a challenge but still, it would save you driving all over creation for a 3" piece of rod. 

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Funky-Doo indeed!!! Like the old story about trying to shove a dew worm up a wildcats----Oh, never mind. I'll buy a 1mm drill tomorrow.


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## rleete

How is it that a Canadian doesn't have a set of metric drills?

So, to back up a few posts. You said that the first insulator broke into 3 pieces. Can you elaborate? Was it too brittle a material? Too deep a cut on a small diameter? Too much torque from the threading?

Is it possible to glue the pieces back together? I know that they glue/epoxy the seams when installing countertops. I also know most epoxy is an insulator. Could you stick it back together and have a spare?


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## kjk

Although Canada has been metric for decades you can't get a set of metric drills to save your life.


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## bearcar1

Well it was just a thought, besides, that wildcat might enjoy it :big: :big: :big:

BC1
Jim


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## cfellows

tel  said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that point up Brian, it's something that was bothering me a bit, being the exact reverse of the way points are usually set up.



Actually, Tel, that's always the way ignition points work. The spark occurs on the break, not the contact... 

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

rleete  said:
			
		

> How is it that a Canadian doesn't have a set of metric drills?


Well actually, I don't have a set of any kind of drills. I buy them as I need them. I find metric to be a Bastard abomination, foisted on us by a government who were a complete pack of fools. I use it if my customers want on engineering documents, because as of about 1976 or so it became "official" here. However, I work with what I learned as a young pup and am most comfortable with, British Imperial. As a matter of fact, the use of metric seems to be dieing out here. Most of my customers and most of my machine shops have reverted to British Imperial.


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## rleete

Interesting. I've always heard that the US was the last holdout, and they were just waiting for us to switch over for a perfect unified system.


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## Brian Rupnow

As long as USA remains our major trading partner, (and I don't see that changing anytime soon) we will probably do what USA are doing.


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## kcmillin

rleete  said:
			
		

> Interesting. I've always heard that the US was the last holdout, and they were just waiting for us to switch over for a perfect unified system.




I could be wrong but I think Liberia still uses the Standard System. 

As of the 50's or so the official length of an inch was changed 2.54mm, I guess to simplify the calculations for the "Rest" of the world.

(Does this mean if I have a pre-WW2 micrometer or measuring device, it would no longer be an accurate measurment????


Your post on machining corian is great, and will come in handy for me in the near future. (I have 8 spark plugs to make) 

Kel


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## Maryak

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> As of the 50's or so the official length of an inch was changed 2.54mm, I guess to simplify the calculations for the "Rest" of the world.
> 
> Kel



Methinks you decimated it ;D 25.4mm=1ins.

Best Regards
Bob


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## kcmillin

Oops' :hDe: 

I think thats how NASA screwed up the Mars Lander a few years back :big:

Kel


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## tel

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Actually, Tel, that's always the way ignition points work. The spark occurs on the break, not the contact...
> 
> Chuck



 ;D Yeah. I knew that Chuck, even if I am from Orstralia! What I meant was that most systems I've seen work with the points closed thru the cycle until the point of firing, when they are lifted by a cam lobe.


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## tel

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> As long as USA remains our major trading partner, (and I don't see that changing anytime soon) we will probably do what USA are doing.



Hooooo Boy! Talk about leading with your chin! There are just sooooo many snappy come-backs for that, but I'm too much of a gentleman to use 'em.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel--I don't always agree with our neighbours to the south. Their foreign policy and Imperialism is downright scary. However, they are our neighbour, a very BIG neighbour, and all in all they have been a very good neighbour. Speaking for myself, the Americans I have met and dealt with on an individual basis are great people, who I would be glad to have live next door. As soon as you bring government policy into any discussion, it often seems that governments elected by the people, for the people suddenly take on policies representing the people that have very little to do with what the average people really want. USA is our longest contiguous border, our major trading partner, and as I said, they have been/are a very good neighbour. That being said, I'm not about to dash out and trade in my Canadian citizenship.


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## rleete

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> it often seems that governments elected by the people, for the people suddenly take on policies representing the people that have very little to do with what the average people really want.



Pretty much true for all gov'ts, for as far back as you care to take it.


Back to the engine: what's left to do on this one?


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## Brian Rupnow

Rleete--I have to finish the sparkplug and build a carburetor. I will fabricate a one peice muffler from a peice of brass. All of the other parts are finished. I am still not happy with the lack of compression this engine has, and that is going to drive me to taking a closer look at the valve sealing and piston sealing. I am going to make an inlet air tube with the same threads as the sparkplug, screw it into the cylinder head and make sure it is sealed where it seats, then apply air pressure to the cylinder so I can make independent checks of the valves and the piston sealing. At worst, I may have to make a new piston, which is not really a big deal, or I may have to remachine the valve seats in the head. I am happy with all of the other parts.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

This is the Kerzel Karburetor. All in all, I like the design because it is simple and requires a bare minimum of silver soldering. I will be building this. However----Last week I read on a post on this forum (I can't find it now) about someone who had added a butterfly valve type throttle to a similar carb, and they gave a link to the post where that was done. Can someone please point me in the right direction to find that link. Since I have to build the carb anyways, I wouldn't mind incorporating a throttle into it. Even if a throttle is redundant on a hit and miss engine, this may not be the last carburetor I undertake to build.----Brian --(if the picture is too small to see, hold down the Ctrl button on your keyboard and hit the plus sign on your keyboard at the same time)


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel---I told you a big fat lie last week!!! I looked at the rocker arm plans today, and it only uses one 1/8" steel ball inset into the rocker dirrectly above the valve stem. I bought a bag of 100. As luck would have it, when I tore apart my old battery powered drill to salvage the chuck yesterday, about a dozen 0.115" diameter steel bearing balls fell out into my lap!!!


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## GailInNM

Brian,
Looking good.
The throttle you may have been thing of is Kel's butterfly on his "Tiny".
Starts at:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8096.msg115971#msg115971
Gail in NM


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Gail---Thats it.---Brian


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## kcmillin

Brian, I am not sure if you are talking about my mod to the "Tiny IC" carb, but....

Here is the link to page 9 of the Tiny IC. 
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8096.120

Kel


ooops, I meant to cancle this post, Gail beat me to it.

Thanks and sorry


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## tel

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Tel---I told you a big fat lie last week!!! I looked at the rocker arm plans today, and it only uses one 1/8" steel ball inset into the rocker dirrectly above the valve stem. I bought a bag of 100. As luck would have it, when I tore apart my old battery powered drill to salvage the chuck yesterday, about a dozen 0.115" diameter steel bearing balls fell out into my lap!!!



That's usually the way of it, either a feast or a famine. What now, 111 more Kerzels on the bench?


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## Brian Rupnow

No real work accomplished today, however if I get tired of friggin with small engines, I can become a Seamster (Thats the male equivalent of Seamstress). I caused quite a stir at the local Sewing supply shop. The lady said that today was the first time ever that someone has showed up with a micrometer wanting to measure the needles. Kerzels carburetor plan calls for a 0.038" diameter sewing needle. and a 0.038" cross drilled hole for the spray orifice. I have to buy a .039" drill (1 mm) anyways to redrill the sparkplug. I don't think the carburetor will care that much about a .001" difference in size. I spent the lions share of today helping my wife pick out new office furniture. She retired after 36 years with the federal government 2 weeks ago, then last week became an employment councilor/consultant for the YMCA and will be doing about half her work from home. Damn, its nice to be married to a woman that looks good and makes more money than I do!!!!--And no, thats not the micrometer in the picture---I know the difference. The caliper is laying there to hold the needle package open for the picture.


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## tel

;D Or you could become a 'Teamster' and needle everybody!


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## bearcar1

tel  said:
			
		

> ;D Or you could become a 'Teamster' and needle everybody!




*groan*  :

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Carburetor dreaming---


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, for the moment, I am pooched. I can not get the valves to stop leaking, and consequently have no compression. I took the cylinder head off and held my thumb over the top of the cylinder while turning the engine over by hand.---Compression and "suckability" were great so it isn't the rings nor piston. The intake valve seems to be considerably worse than the exhaust. While I had the head off I remachined the valve seats with my 45 degree chamfering tool and relapped them, both by hand and with a very slow "power lap", but no dice!!! It looks like I now have two or three choices. #1--redo the the guides as "valve cages" which are machined to match and mate with the valve off the engine, then loctited into the head and the port drilled after the fact. I kind of like this, because the valve is steel while the seat of the guide/cage is brass, so being a little softer will more readily take the shape of the valve when lapping. #2--I am kind of intrigued by a post Chuck made a while back about his Henry Ford clone, where he couldn't effect a perfect seal on the intake valve stem so instead put in a ball bearing and made the intake into a ball valve type arrangement.-(Chuck---Can you supply me with that link please). #3--Set the engine up on a high shelf and take up drinking instead!!


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## Peter.

Brian could you not re-make the valves, but make a third to the same compound settings and then mill it to create a single-flute valve seat cutter? You could then use the cutter to cut the seats to exactly the right angle for the valves and the single flute cutter should give you a good finish.


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## Brian Rupnow




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## Brian Rupnow

Peter.  said:
			
		

> Brian could you not re-make the valves, but make a third to the same compound settings and then mill it to create a single-flute valve seat cutter? You could then use the cutter to cut the seats to exactly the right angle for the valves and the single flute cutter should give you a good finish.



Peter---Its just too small to do something like that. The head of the valve is only 1/4" in diameter --the stem is 3/32". I can hardly see the damn thing as it is without trying to mill a cutting edge on it anywhere.---Brian


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## crankshafter

Hi Brian.
Have been follwing your Kerzel from you started the topic. Nice engine/work.
I see you have problem with having the valves seal good. The cages will get you there. But one thing to mention, do not make the seats so wide,methink 0.3-0.4mm will do the trick. 

Best ......

CS


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## cfellows

So, Brian, I've reassembled my engine, including rocker arms, push rods, etc., so all the moving parts are together and working. Then, I spun the engine over at around 1,000 RPM with my electric drill for a total of probably 4 or 5 minutes. I first squirted oil in both the cylinders, then oiled the crank, connecting rods and everything else that moves. Then I would spin the engine for up to a minute, stop for a while (had to rest my hand holding the drill), then spin another minute, etc. 

After doing that, the engine has loosened up nicely, and the viton rings are sliding nicely in the cylinder now. And, I have great compression on the one cylinder and I think pretty good compression on the second cylinder. So, now, I'm hopeful that I can continue to break it in a bit and the valve sealing problem will be solved.

You might want to try the same thing on your engine to see how it works.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm back on a "real" job and I'm tired this evening-----don't feel much like messing with valve cages. One thing I lack is a muffler, so I quickly designed one and will now atempt to whittle it out of a peice of brass.---Oh yeah---I tapped the ports in the Kerzel head to 5/16"-18 unc, as I didn't want to depend on loctite to hold the carb and muffler. They were already drilled to 1/4" as per Kerzel, so I just ran the tap into them. I kept all the 1/16" exhaust holes on one side of the muffler so I can point them downwards and not have it exhausting into my face if I ever get it to run.





View attachment MUFFLER.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

There we go---All muffled up!!!!


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## tel

Progressing nicely Brian, I'm still trailing waaaay behind, but it's starting to take shape


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## Brian Rupnow

Looks great Tel. Did you make that oiler? If so, what did you use for the glass tube.----Brian


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## tel

Thanks Brian, the 'glass' tube is the modified body of a Nicorette inhaler capsule.


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## Brian Rupnow

I spent an hour and a half playing with my Kerzel this evening.----Don't laugh!!! In a final attempt to get some compression without having to make new valve cages, I took the valves out and refaced them and relapped them. Didn't work. Still no appreciable compression. I know the rings are good, as proven by the "head off thumb over end of cylinder, spin the crankshaft suckability" test. I can't imagine anything else other than the valves leaking. I have a good quality head gasket made from gasket material on it, and its not leaking there. I would try and start the engine and see how it runs with little (almost no) compression, but it has to have enough compression to at least pull the intake valve open to get fuel, and its not even doing that. I ran it with the electric drill to see if perhaps a little speed would make the intake valve open----No joy there, but I did find out my governor weights and arms and spool are all moving exactly the way they are supposed to. The Kerzel arm still needs a little reworking, but it is propping the exhaust valve open when the governor weights fly out.( I have an elastic wrapped around them right now---I haven't been able to find the right springs yet to hold the governor arms "in" at low RPM). I will try a lighter spring on the intake valve later this week. Something that is rather encouraging, is that I put an adapter in the sparkplug hole which I can hook a small plastic tube on. With both valves in the normally closed condition, I can't blow thru the tube---(at least not very much). As soon as I manually depress the top of either valve, I can blow through the tube. This tells me that things seem to be sealing inside the cylinder quite well. Maybe an engine this small just doesn't have a lot of noticable compression??? How about all you fellows that are building the "Tiny"---Can you feel compression on it when you turn the flywheels? Gotta go watch Jeapardy with the wife now.----Brian


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## GailInNM

Brian,
You should be able to feel compression starting at about 1/3 of the piston stroke. I have gone to a lapped piston on my "Tiny" so it is more free than with the o-ring piston I had in it, but it felt the same way with the 0-ring in it. Coming up on compression stroke, I can flip the flywheel hard enough to make it up to about half stroke and it will bounce back around 180 degrees and bounce again back to the start of the compression stroke. I would not expect the Kerzel to do that with the added friction of the 0-ring, but you should see some definite bounce if you flip the flywheel. My Tiny has 5.6:1 compression ratio at the moment. I put in an extra head gasket which lowered to to just under 5:1 early on when I was having overheating problems. Could not tell any difference in running or the way compression felt. The Kerzel would probably run at anything over 3:1. Not that it would run very well, but it would run. And you would be able to feel compression.

What I would try is to slip a small 0-ring over each valve so they will provide a flexable seal between valve and the valve seat. Then test for compression. It sure sounds like you have leakage some where in the head area and that normally means a valve leaking. 

I have followed along on some of the valve fitting methods that have been mentioned in this thread. My personal opinion is that the smaller the valve seat the better. On my Tiny, the valves were turned in on piece and just lightly polished with some 800 grit abrasive paper while still in the lathe. No more than 10 seconds or so. Just enough to get any possible high spots off. The valve seats area is only a few thou wide, probably 0.003 to 0.005. Just enough so I could see it. After drilling the area behind the valve seat out and reaming the guides in the head I coated the area for the valve seat with a permanent marker so I could see when I started cutting. I used a 90 degree countersink kept raising the table until I could see the marker disappear using a Lupe to watch the seat. Then leave it alone. No lapping or polishing.  A very narrow seat is much easier to make seal and on a low performance engine such as this valve overheating just won't happen so no worries about getting the heat into the head with a large contact area. 

Gail in NM


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## dreeves

Brian, My Upshur farm engine which has a .750 Dia bore has very strong comperssion when I try to spin the flywheel on the comperssion cycle. I have no rings on the piston just a clean fit. I will try to get a video of the compression

Dave


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## GailInNM

While I was concentrating on the valves in the above post, there are several other possible leakage areas that the tests you have performed might have missed. A leaking head gasket would still have allowed you to pass the thumb over the end of the cylinder test. Spark plug gasket not sealing. Can happen if the plug seat is not square to the threads. Or the spark plug it's self might leak, but that is hard to imagine the way Kerzel designed the plug. 

Gail in NM


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## Lakc

Brian,

 Time for a leakdown test. Cobble up a way to put compressed air into the cylinder and listen/use cigarette smoke to see if any air is leaking past the valves or the head gasket. Even an aquarium pump should suffice for an air source, but a double gauge set like an automotive one is obviously better. 

 If you think it may be rings, perhaps the bore is distorting when the head is bolted on, you shoot a liberal amount of 40wt engine oil into the cylinder, that should provide a good temp seal. 

 Think of ways to measure what the problem is, make good tests, then act on that information. The hardest things to fix is always your own car/equipment/engine/creation, because your often just too close to it.


----------



## putputman

Brian, I feel your pain. Been through it a few times. I finally came up with a procedure that I follow on all my new I.C. Engines.

There are four areas that can cause compression or lack of compression problems.
1) Seal between piston & cylinder
2) Seal between head and cylinder block
3) Valve leakage
4) Spark plug leakage.

1) To check the seal between the piston & cylinder I make a flat plate and gasket with the same bolt hole pattern as the head and secure it to the cylinder block. This seals the cylinder eliminates any problems with valves, spark plug, and head leakage.

I then give the flywheel a spin. It should not go through a complete revolution, but bounce back almost half way through the other direction. If this happens, you have a good enough seal for the engine to run.

If the flywheel spins through a complete revolution, you have ring leakage and must install new rings. I sometimes will even add an o-ring behind the metal ring.

If the flywheel does not go through a complete revolution, but does not bounce back half way through a revolution, the rings are too snug or the o-ring is to tight.

You can put a threaded hole in the plate and check compression with a gage like you would in an automobile engine.

2) To eliminate any leakage between the head and cylinder I add an o-ring to the head and allow about .010 compression on the o-ring. I do this on all of my engines now to eliminate that problem.






3) This is the most difficult area to solve. The one thing that helped me the most was when I started machining my valves in one setup. I think I recall reading that when you made your valves, you turned the stems and then cut the material to length. Later you set up the valves again and machined the valve seat. If you setup in not absolutely perfect, you might have enough eccentricity to cause leakage and maybe enough that you can't even lap the valves in.

When I machine my valves now I set the compound at 45* and first make my valve seat cutter. Next I will machine the stem on the valve. It really helps if you can use a small live center to support the small stem. I then change cutters and while running the lathe in reverse I cut the valve angle on the back side. (did the same on the seat cutter) Then the valve can be cut to length. In most cases I don't even have to lap the valves in.

When I cut the valve seats in the head, I drill, bore or ream the hole for the stem and then cut the seat in one setup. Then move to the next valve seat and machine that one complete in one setup.


4) If the leakage is around the spark plug, a soft copper washer will seal it.

On the exhaust valve, I use a fairly heavy spring. It may add a little ware on the cam & lifter but I don't run my engines that many hours to notice the difference.

I try to have a very small seat area on the intake valve. I use just enough spring to close the valve and rely on the cylinder compression to seal the valve.

Don't know if any of this will help you but it does work for me. 

Best of luck solving that problem and look forward to seeing the engine running soon.


----------



## NickG

Our club recently held a model Judging competition and I was talking to one of my fellow club members who was building a Chenery V Twin from Hemmingway Kits http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Aero_Twin.html

He'd just finished it that very night (although not tried starting yet) and was showing me some of the features. He, like Gail said that valve seat area was best kept to a minimum to give the best chance of getting a good seal. There was a very noticable compression with his engine when turning over by hand.

It got me thinking though, why does the valve seat need to be cut at an angle - why cant it be a very square edge, then with a tiny (few seconds) bit of lapping it would create a perfect seal. I know the poppet type valve on the regulator of sweet pea locomotive is like that.

People might think that there would be a tendency for the valve to lift - but why would there? Surely there would be much more force pushing the valve shut than there would trying to lift it due to the much larger area on the top face of the valve?

Maybe Gail or other any of the other experienced guys will shoot this idea down in flames though?

The subject of sealing valves also came up on Steve's V8 build and he said he doesn't lap at all - just uses the same setting on top slide to cut both valves and valve seats, as long as a good surface finish is obtained they should be a perfect match.

Nick


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## GailInNM

Nick,
There is nothing wrong with your idea. I talked with someone at NAMES, maybe 10-12 years ago, that advocated doing just that. As I see it there are two possible problems with it. 

1. If the pocket geometry that the valve seat is formed on is not perfectly round and centered on the valve spindle, then it valve may deflect a little bit when lapping in as there has to be a little clearance for the valve spindle in the valve guide for it to work.

2. The working surface of the head must be perfectly perpendicular to the valve spindle or valve will be deflected when lapping.

Both problems can be easily overcome with care. The first is taken care of by using an end mill to open up the pocked for the valve. The end mill will act as a boring tool and while it may not leave a accurately sized hole, the hole will be round. The second is taken care of by surfacing the head working surface with a skim cut at the same set up as the valve spindle holes are drilled and reamed. Then remove any tooling marks on the head afterward with abrasive paper on a surface plate or other flat surface.

If using valve cages, then the problems fairly well go away if the valve pocket is bored out after drilling and reaming the valve guide portion. A reamer would probably work also. In either case, then surface the working face to remove any chatter marks from the start of the boring or reaming operation. 

My use of a counter sink is to try to accomplish the same thing in a manner that is easier for me. I do use an end mill to put the pocket in so I am starting with a round hole and the countersink is used at the same setup without moving the table on the mill. I use a very sharp countersink, carbide, to minimize the tooling marks that might be left. Even if there are some they will be annular rings that really won't make any difference. Above I said I am making a few thou wide valve seat. What I do in practice is after marking the seat area with a marker I just run the counter sink in far enough that I can see a bright ring all the way around the hole. Then I quit and am done.

Gail in NM


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## NickG

Thanks again Gail for yet more useful information.

So am I right in thinking your valves sit slightly proud rather than being almost flush with the cylinder head? I wasn't sure when you initially said you made the seating area thin, whether you had sort of 3 angles like a racing valve.

I think using your technique with a decent cutter people will have a high chance of getting a good seal, it is certainly what I will be doing.

The more I read these posts, the more I just want to stop my current projects and start an i.c. engine but I've got to finish them first really. :-\

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

putputman  said:
			
		

> 1) To check the seal between the piston & cylinder I make a flat plate and gasket with the same bolt hole pattern as the head and secure it to the cylinder block. This seals the cylinder eliminates any problems with valves, spark plug, and head leakage.



Putput---I will do that tomorrow.---brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, the "proof of the pudding is in the eating" as the saying goes. This morning I made up a blank plate drilled with the cylinder head bolt pattern and installed it on the engine with the head gasket. The engine has all kind of compression, and will 'kick back" if you grab the flywheel and try to give it a spin. This conclusively proves it is non sealing valves causing my lack of compression. Next trick will be valve cages A'la Chuck Fellows.


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## NickG

Good method of diagnosing the fault Brian - getting there now.

Nick


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## cfellows

Brian, don't know if you saw my later post about making a valve cage, but I believe drilling the initial pilot hole all the way through the blank is not the best way to go. I think this may allow the small bit to wander to one side.

An article written by Dwight Giles in Model Engine Builder, issue #20 suggests first creating the valve port opening to finish size, then cutting the valve seat 1/64th - 1/16th inch wide using a boring bar and the compound, then finally center drilling and creating the hole for the valve guide, all without removing the piece from the lathe. The article suggests drilling the valve guide to around to 1/64" undersize, then boring with a small boring bar to .003"/.005" undersize, then reaming to finish size. He suggests using a solid carbide micro boring bar as short as needed to do the boring. However, these things apparently cost $35 apiece so I don' think I'll be doing that.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

I had the very best of intentions for the afternoon----Went to my steel supplier and bought a foot of 1/4" drill rod, and a foot of 3/8" drill rod, and a foot of 3/8" dia. brass, then ended up with a housefull of grandchildren all afternoon, so my intentions remained that----only intentions. Chuck---I did see your posts over on the Troubles-troubles thread. If I understand you correctly you are saying drill the large part of the bore first, then the seat, then the thru hole, then ream. I do not have boring bars that small, and don't really plan on buying any. My smallest center drill/countersink is .187" diameter, which coincidentaly is the diameter of the largest bore in my valve cage. I am working with the assumption that the hole through the side gets drilled AFTER the cage is pressed/loctited into the head?


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## Brian Rupnow

One more time, with feeling!!! And yes, I had to drill that .070 hole in the side of the cage and try the "blow your guts out" test to see if the valve was sealing in the new cage or not. Of course, I couldn't tell---only suceeded in pinching my lip between the valve and the cage. When the cage is loctited into the head and set for 24 hours that hole will be enlarged to 3/16" (It lines up with the port in the head).---cross your fingers for me!!!


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## cfellows

Looks good. One thing you might try before you install it. Use a felt tip pen or marking dye and color the valve seat all the way round. Then put the valve in, and pressing it lightly against the seat, turn the valve several times in the seat using the valve stem. If the color is worn off all the way round or not at all, you probably have a good seat. If the color is worn off in one spot, you probably have a problem. Chuck


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## Maryak

Here's hoping because I have a funny feeling it will soon be my turn. 







Best Regards
Bob


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## zeeprogrammer

Still got my fingers crossed Brian. You'll have this running soon.


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## NickG

Good luck Brian, it looks good to me.


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## Brian Rupnow

This morning I built two more valve cages. Why two??? Because I didn't heed my own advice about LIGHT press fit and the second one collapsed when I pressed it in. Needless to say, the third cage was a DAMN light press fit---(More of a coat it with Loctite and push it in with your thumb!!!) I won't know untill tomorrow evening if I have acheived a good seal between the new cages and valves, or if I have to now build new valves.


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## doc1955

If you are using loctite that is what I shoot for is a nice slip fit.
Believe it or not it takes more pressure to push a bushing out that has been put in with a slip fit and loctite then it does wit a press fit and loctite. The reason is if you look at the surface under a microscope you would see peaks and valleys when you press some thing in you shear off the tops and lose area for the loctie to grab and expand into. The only way around this is to shrink fit. With that process you need to super cool part being pushed into place.

Anyway I think it only a matter of time before you have things going your way.
Your build looks really nice can't wait to hear the put put put!
Good luck Brain!


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## Lakc

This is very interesting, as my first foray into caged valve construction is coming up soon. Looking good!


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## Brian Rupnow

Gentlemen---We have compression!!! I couldn't wait 24 hours so I helped the Loctite along with a heat lamp. The compression isn't great. Its nowhere as good as on the Webster I built last year, but its there. I went to a heavier spring on the exhaust valve, because it is mechanically actuated. I cut one coil off the spring on the intake valve, and it began to operate from engine suction. What you are seeing in the picture is #1--An adapter I made and screwed into the sparkplug hole so I could apply air pressure and listen for leaks with both valves closed. #2---A second adapter I made to screw into the carburetor port to hook an airline to. Once I got things to the point where the intake valve began to operate, I plugged the sparkplug airline (hence the pencil) and put the other line from the intake port into a can of light oil about 14" below the engine. When I ran the drill motor at a fairly low RPM, the engine created enough suction to lift the light oil 14" into the cylinder. (Of course this immediately blew the pencil out of the other line and sprayed oil all over my telephone and catalogues!!!) However, oil wipes up. If there is enough suction happening to lift oil 14", then there is enough suction to pull air/fuel mix into the carburetor and run. I'm ready to move on---I'm sick of screwing about with valves!!! Onward and upward---I'm going to try and build a carburetor, if I can find anybody in Ontario that will sell me one #2-56 brass screw 1/2" long.


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## zeeprogrammer

Congratulations Brian. Sounds like good progress.
But who are you calling 'Gentlemen'?


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## Brian Rupnow

zeeprogrammer  said:
			
		

> Congratulations Brian. Sounds like good progress.
> But who are you calling 'Gentlemen'?


Zee--We're all gentlemen here----aren't we???


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## NickG

well done Brian looking forward to hearing it very soon! 

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay guys--I'm going to move on to a carburetor build. Since I have to make drawings for myself to build it, and I wanted a throttle on it (whether it gets used or not), I figured I might as well share with you folks. If it works, we're all ahead of the game. If it doesn't, then I'll try and explain why (when I find out) and will post any corrected drawings. To start out, here is the first part, the carburetor body.--It does get silver soldered to a second part.





View attachment CARBURETOR BODY.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

And here is the part it gets soldered to---





View attachment CARBURETOR PART-2.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

Here is the assembly drawing for the first two parts---





View attachment ASSY OF CARBURETOR BODY.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

The needle valve screw---





View attachment CARBURETOR NEEDLE VALVE.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

And the assembled needle valve---





View attachment ASSY OF NEEDLE VALVE.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

The throttle itself---





View attachment THROTTLE SCREW.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

And the full assembly of the carburetor--





View attachment ASSY OF CARBURETOR.PDF


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## Brian Rupnow

And after that valient effort, has anybody out there got a couple of #2-56 x 3/8" or 1/2" long brass shcs that they could volunteer to me? Nobody in Barrie sells them unless I order a box of 50 of them!!!


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## kjk

Would stainless suffice?


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## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> And after that valient effort, has anybody out there got a couple of #2-56 x 3/8" or 1/2" long brass shcs that they could volunteer to me? Nobody in Barrie sells them unless I order a box of 50 of them!!!



I have plenty of alloy 'steel' SHCS (socket head cap screws). I could send you what you need. Send me a PM if your interested.

-MB


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## kcmillin

Great Job on the carb design. 

FWIW, I ended up putting a spring between the hex nut on the throttle and the carburetter body. At first it held in place by itself, but I think over time it loosened up, and someway to keep the throttle in place was needed. Hens the spring. Perhaps just keeping slight pressure on the throttle nut is all that is needed. 

I also noticed a difference in the engines performance. When I had the throttle in the 1/2-3/4 range, the engine ran smoother than at wide open throttle. I think this adds turbulence to the air/fuel ratio and helps mix the mixture a little better.

Kel


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## twineman

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> And after that valient effort, has anybody out there got a couple of #2-56 x 3/8" or 1/2" long brass shcs that they could volunteer to me? Nobody in Barrie sells them unless I order a box of 50 of them!!!


Brian, I have some 2-56 x 1/2" brass hex head cap screws that I can stick in an envelope and send to you if they are of any use.

Allen


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## Brian Rupnow

Twineman---that would truly be wonderfull if you could!!! Thank you. Click on my "signature" to get to my web page and contact information.


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## twineman

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Twineman---that would truly be wonderfull if you could!!! Thank you. Click on my "signature" to get to my web page and contact information.


No problem Brian, they are in the mail today.


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks a million----brian


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## Brian Rupnow

No model engineering progress today. Eight hours of "real" work, and then the rest of the day I've been reloading a kajillion software programs onto my laptop. It blew its cookies last month so its been in the shop having its operating system dumped and reinstalled.---Good news is it only cost $100---Considerably cheaper than another laptop!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I managed to steal an hours time tonight and make the carburetor body. I had a peice of 5/8" brass round stock, so I set it up in the 3 jaw in my lathe to do the inner diameters and the internal thread, then cut it off the main stock, flipped it end for end and turned the small diameter on the end. Then over to the 3 jaw in my rotary table to drill the cross holes and mill the 4 sides square.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tonight we built a throttle screw. Made from 1018 mild steel. Heck, I even got fancy and knurled the knob. Then I got even fancier and heated it to a medium red/orange with my oxy acetylene torch and dropped it into a tin of motor oil to blacken it. I will probably use two hex nuts rather than the one as shown in the assembly, to lock against each other keep the nut from loosening off when (if) I adjust the throttle.


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## Brian Rupnow

Grrrrr!!! Mad tonight!!! I'm too busy working at my real job to run across town to where the toolshops are. I phoned over today to have one of the guys who works over there but lives near me bring me a #2-56 tap and bottoming tap when he got off work. He showed up about half an hour ago with the taps. I THOUGHT I had a 0.070" drill----AND I DON'T!!! So---no work will be accomplished tonight, at least not on carburetor parts. Maybe its time to finish up the sparkplug tonight.


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## mklotz

Got a 1.75 mm (=0.069") drill?


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## Brian Rupnow

Marv--I only have anything metric under extreme duress----but thanks for thinking of me!!!----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, it were a terrible struggle---But my sparkplug now has a bottom electrode. Had to silver solder it---Loctite won't work for this. Too much like picking fly$hit out of pepper for me, but that ends done.


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## kustomkb

Watch the "crappy Tire" flyer for their letter, number, fractional drill set. It comes on sale for 60 bucks, then you will have a proper index and as they dull you can replace them with cobalt or WHY. Its a good set and quality is not bad either. Same for their tap and die set.


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## kjk

The aforementioned drill set is on sale right now for 50 bucks.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...e+Titanium-Coated+Drill+Bit+Set.jsp?locale=en


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## kustomkb

Well there ya go, and they'll even throw in some driver bits. Sure must be better than chasing around for a drill at a time, no?


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## Metal Butcher

I don't mean to nit-pick, but @ about $4.00 U.S. dollars for a gal. of gas, make one trip and buy a 115 pcs. set plus the extra one in the link. 

http://www.busybeetools.com/products/DRILL-SET-1%2d60-105%2d825.html

I say this only in you best interest.

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

Guys---You are absolutely right. I will call Canadian Tire today and buy a set.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I hung up the phone, grabbed my jacket and hot footed it down to Canadian Tire. Found the kid who looks after "drills" and he informed me the sale ended yesterday. I ragged on him a bit, and he gave it to me for sales price. Now back to work. Work-Work-Work----Thanks Guys.


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## kustomkb

Good score, you won't be disappointed. Keep your eye out for the tap and die set too, for non production work it will do just fine.

Looking forward to hearing and seeing your engine run.


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## Brian Rupnow

I have an ancient yard-sale set of Craftsman taps and dies that have lasted me for the last 30 years---I just replace 'em one at a time as I need to.


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## bearcar1

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> .............. I ragged on him a bit, and he gave it to me for sales price. Now back to work. Work-Work-Work----Thanks Guys.




It was probably just your charm more than anything Brian. Rof} Rof} Rof}

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

I've reached the point in this build where all the easy stuff is done. Now I'm into "Do everything twice" mode. This evening I made the last brass bit for the carburetor---the part the needle valve screws into. It was PERFECT!!! And then, after coating all the surfaces I didn't want silver solder on with whiteout, I silver soldered it into the carb body. Disaster overtook me. It sucked silver solder down the carfully tapped #2-56 thread and filled the damn thing right full of silver solder. I believe I may have learned something though. I think I will heat the body and pull the ruined part out, but when I make another part, since there is enough sticks out on the gasline side of the carb to hold in my lathe chuck, I will silver solder it to the carb first, then chuck it up and drill and tap the #2-56 thread and the .039 dia. port after the fact. The .062" hole could be put in before silver soldering, as that side sticks up high enough above the side of the carb that it shouldn't be able to wick up any solder into the hole.


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## Brian Rupnow

Much better success the second time around!!! I re-made the part which I messed up yesterday, and this time I only put the 1/16" hole part way in from the large end as the drawing calls for. Then I did my soldering trick. Then I set it back up in the lathe,holding the 3/16" dia. spout that the gas line attaches to, and drilled and tapped for the #2-56 thread and the 0.040"thru hole at the same time to keep the bores as concentric as possible. I found an appropriate sized sewing needle in the package I bought last week, and Voila'!!! I almost have a carburetor. Now if those #2-56 screws that are on their way here form B.C. would hurry up and get here, I'd have a finished carburetor. Son of a gun---I never made a carb before!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I just tried a very interesting experiment. I know the theory behind how a carburetor works. I know that a venturi creates a low pressure area either at or slightly downstream from the venturi. I know that this low pressure area is what sucks the gasoline up from the tank for distribution into the moving air stream---however, like many of the ten million things I know, a lot of it is "theoretical knowledge". I just realized as I sat eating supper with my good wife, that I had everything on hand now to test the carb I just built, in terms of the suction my venturi would create. After supper I found a peice of rubber hose that would connect from my air blowgun to the inlet side of my carburetor. I attached a peice of clear plastic flexible gasline to the fuel inlet and hung it in a pop bottle full of water. I held my thumb over the hole where the needle valve goes, and turned on the air to my blowgun.---AMAZING----It was just like a mosquito fogger. It didn't take much airflow at all to blow a great fog/mist of water out of the outlet side of my carb. The vacuum created by the venturi lifted the water about 8" from the pop bottle up to the carburetor where the airstream "grabbed" it and turned it into an atomized mist .I love it!!! This kind of experiment gives me an absolute high!!!!----Brian


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## metalmad

looking good now Brian
Will not be long till shes a goa :bow: :bow:


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## Brian Rupnow

My test rig set-up may be uglier than original sin, but I've got a wonderfull big fat blue spark at the end of my home made sparkplug. Mind you, I've got enough time invested in this thing to buy my own private island in the Carribean---but----Ive made a working sparkplug!!!! I never ever thought I would do that. The sparkplug is built to Kerzels plan, except for the brass collar at the top of the corian. The corian kept wanting to split, abd rather than fight with it any longer, I resorted to a small brass collar and crazy glue.


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## Brian Rupnow

The thought must have occured to some of you by now, that it must be getting pretty crowded at the head of that Kerzel engine. All I can say is "You're absolutely right!!!". Luckily, the only thing left to go on there is the needle valve for the carburetor and a wire to the sparkplug. There isn't enough room left there for an angel to dance!!!


----------



## Jasonb

Looking good Brian, just watch that the spark does not try to jump from the brass cap to the rocker arm, a bit of heat shrink once the wire is on should sort that.

Jason


----------



## NickG

Looking brilliant Brian, I suppose it was obvious but I would never have thought of testing the carb!

You must be on a high, I don't want to put a hex on this, but as long as things seal properly I've never been more confident that somethings going to run as I am now! :bow:

Can't wait

Nick


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## rleete

Nice supply of firewood, too!


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## Brian Rupnow

Rleete---Thats my next door neighbours firewood.---The engine is setting on the fence between my house and his, to take the picture. I've been monkeying with my hardware store governor springs. They were close, but not quite right. Since I am not ready to tackle the arcane science of spring winding, I decide that I could make them work if I built 4 little brass bushings and loctited them onto the 0.094 stub shafts sticking out the ends of my counterweights. this worked fine, fit-wise, but they were too strong----Running the dril motor wide open they only moved a tiny bit---The springs were too strong. Not to be so easily defeated, I unscrewed one counterweight and stretched the springs untill I felt them give just that "little bit" that tells you they have stretched beyond their elastic limit. Now they work fine---at full drill speed, the counterweights move full swing, and move the spool controlling the Kerzel arm about 0.080" travel.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Folks---This long winded thread is approaching the end. Tonight I remade the "kerzel Arm".--That is the lever that props the exhaust valve open when in "miss" mode. There is some incredibly complex "fitwork" on that arm, as it has to pivot, slide in the groove of the spool on the crankshaft, allow the valve to have its full travel when the engine is running at low speed, and yet move in just enough to prop the valve open at high speed. I had filed and ground, and built up with silver solder so much on the first Kerzel arm that it looked like a relic left over from war. I built a new one, and in the process of "fitment" I now see that I took too much material of the "notch" that holds the valve open, so will build that area up with silver solder tomorrow and reshape it. I would use the mig welder, but the nice thing about silver solder is that it is quite visibly different from the parent metal, so you can see clearly what you have added when working it. All I really lack now to make this thing "runnable" is the #2-56 brass screw for the needle valve that is somewhere in the mail between here and British Columbia. It will be exciting and interesting to see it run. I may have issues with the shape of the cam for the valve train---it doesn't seem to stay open very long to me, but thats something you can't tell about untill you first try the engine. it shouldn't prevent the engine from starting, anyways. Thank you all for your comments and well meant advice,----Take heart---The end is in sight!!!-----Brian


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## twineman

Brian, hopefully they will arrive tomorrow, I put the envelope in the mail last Tuesday as promised.
Allen


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## ozzie46

Brian, I always enjoy your builds. Am anxiously awaiting the fist run. 

  Good job as always.

  Ron


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## Brian Rupnow

Twineman---I never doubted you. The fun part is going to be drilling a 0.040" dia. hole full length of one of them and hopefully keeping it concentric. (Actually, I will probably drill half way through from each end.)


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## bearcar1

Are you going to have a cylinder oiler Brian? I just noticed one was not present on your last couple of shots. Long time coming but I hope you don't have a lot of problems getting this one to run for you.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Jury is still out on a cylinder oiler. I may just run some WD40 mixed with the Naptha.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Today my #2-56 brass screws showed up in my mailbox. Four of them, yet!!! Thank you very kindly to Allen in B.C. Drilling a 0.040" hole full length of one of them for a sewing needle is going to definitly be a challenge. After MUCH MUCH filing and grinding and tweaking, I have my Kerzel arm and counterweights working properly, as tested by the "run it with my variable speed electric drill method". At low RPM the weights stay close to the centerline of the crankshaft and the exhaust valve operates properly. At highest RPM (which isn't all that high on a variable speed electric drill) the weights fly out away from the crankshaft centerline, the Kerzel arm pivots, and holds the exhaust valve open. When I slow the drill down, the springs pull the weights back in, the Kerzel arm pivots, and the exhaust valve operates again. I have noticed something that concerns me---This is the first time I have used bronze for my main bearings and connecting rod big end bearing. The bearings were all "snug" when I first assembled the engine. Whenever I have ran it with my electric drill I have used lots of good lubricating oil. Now the main bearings and the con rod big end are visibly loose.---I mean I can wiggle the crank in the bearings. This simply shouldn't be!!! I have always used brass for bearings before, and never had this problem. Can anybody hazard a guess as to whats going on? I am going to have to remake the two main bearings and the con rod bearing, but before I do, I have to figure out what has happened. Is there some types of bronze that are too soft for bearing material? The bronze I used was 3/4" diameter, sawed from a 20 foot length at my local metal supplier.


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian, on the loose bearings. Mike up your crank journals and see what the exact size is. The reamed holes may have been to large. Material diameter varies from batch to batch. I have some stress proof that's taged .3125" but mikes up @ .3105"! Also they may have been touching on a few high spots (or canted) giving the impression of a good fit but after a short run in the small high spots on the bearings or journals come down quick and show a loose fit. The bronze couldn't have worn out, this stuff doesn't wear out that fast, unless they didn't give full support.

To fight these battles, under size, oversize, and decimal reamers are your friend. Drill bits are the enemy you can't trust! 

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The spirit is willing, but the machinery is weak----or at least the machinery isn't precise enough. This evening I exhausted my bag of tricks and sacrificed three 1mm drills trying to drill through a #2-56 screw lengthwise. Tomorrow I will go see my friend with a Sherline lathe and see if he has any better luck. If not, then I will buy a carburetor like the one I used on my Webster build.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Instead of drilling a screw, would it be easier to make one from brass and then press the needle into that? Mine was also a 2-56.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Not for me, Steve. I have just about 'Hit the wall" in terms of my own machining capabilities, and definitly in terms of my chinese lathes capabilities.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> Brian, on the loose bearings. Mike up your crank journals and see what the exact size is. The reamed holes may have been to large. Material diameter varies from batch to batch. I have some stress proof that's taged .3125" but mikes up @ .3105"! Also they may have been touching on a few high spots (or canted) giving the impression of a good fit but after a short run in the small high spots on the bearings or journals come down quick and show a loose fit. The bronze couldn't have worn out, this stuff doesn't wear out that fast, unless they didn't give full support.
> 
> To fight these battles, under size, oversize, and decimal reamers are your friend. Drill bits are the enemy you can't trust!
> 
> -MB



MB--I pulled the con rod cap off tonight and miked the journal. It miked at 0.372" dia.  Then I pulled the rod completely and bolted it up to a peice of 3/8" cold rolled that was "right on" 0.375"---and it was snug as a bugs ear!!! I wouldn't have thought that .003" would give so much "sloppiness" but thats what it was. Thats an easy fix. I expect that I will find the same on the crank journals. That too SHOULD be an easy fix, because I made the crank from 0.375" cold rolled and loctited 0.437" sleeves on in the journal areas. If my sleeves are undersize, I will apply a little heat, slide them off and make a new pair of sleeves. EDIT---Pulled the crankshaft, and my sleeves are right on the money at 0.437" dia. But---for some really weird reason the bushings are measuring 0.442" I.D. The bushings were reamed to 0.437 in place, but I suppose its possible that my finish on the sleeves wasn't up to snuff and that they opened up the bore on the bronze bushings from the hour of "running in" I did with the electric drill, even though I used lots of lubricating oil. Gee Whiz---This is just like forensic pathology!!!


----------



## kcmillin

Brian, when I drill small holes like this I usually put the small bit in a small chuck with an arbor on the back, I put that arbor in the tailstock chuck with light pressure, just enough so I can move it freely in and out. Then using finger pressure, I drill the hole, only allowing it to drill about .010-.020" at a time, backing out the drill bit every time to clean it. These small drill bits have very little space for the shavings to go. 

These are brass screws, right? Can brass be hardened? perhaps these screws are.

Kel


----------



## Lakc

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Gee Whiz---This is just like forensic pathology!!!



Its forensic mechanology. Yeah, I just made that up, but it fits.  Lucky enough that I get to do that in my day job.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tonight I made up a new set of bronze main bearings and reamed them in place. My Lord, what a sweet difference.-No shake, no wobble, smooth as can be when I turn that crankshaft. I have no idea how the old bushings became oversize by about .003' to .005" but it certainly made for a "sloppy" feeling engine. It must have been a sub quality finish on my crank journals that toasted the first set of bushings----of course now they are as smooth as glass from the "wearing in". I will make a new conrod bushing tomorrow night and then do my final reassembly. I ordered a Traxxas Pro15 carburetor today from the same hobby shop that sold me the carb I'm running on my Webster. I would really much rather run my own "built myself" carb, but if I find it impossible to finish the needle valve, I don't want to fart around forever waiting to see this engine run. The engine really had to come apart anyways to address some "final fit" issues that were "speed-passed" during the main building thrash. One thing about these little engines, it only takes about 15 minutes to completely disassemble them. If I don't run into any unforseen disasters, I could be running within the week.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm thinking of possibly taking a slightly different approach with the needle valve. If I find it not possible to drill the brass screw for the needle (and thats looking like what may happen), I may take a steel #2-80 x 3/4" long s.h.c.s. and build a simple jig to grind a needle point on it with my stationary bench grinder. This whole carburetor building gig is brand new for me, and I'm not good with stuff this small.---and if that fails too, I do have the Traxxas on order.


----------



## kcmillin

Brian, I think you have a great idea there. 

 FWIW I think if you put the screw in the lathe and turn the needle on it, it might be a little easier to get the needle and threads concentric. I made a needle this way using a dremel to grind the needles point.

Kel


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## rudydubya

Brian, I made one like that too. Took a 2-56 screw and turned a point on one end. Then cut off the head, threaded on a knurled piece of brass tapped for 2-56, and soft-soldered it where the head was. The tip of mine is not nearly as fine as your needle was, but it works for me. (The brass sleeve it's screwed into fits in one side of the carburetor body.)


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## Brian Rupnow

The engine is back together with all new bearings. Much "stiffer" than it was. All I lack is a needle valve. I have a couple of back up plans. ITS GETTING CLOSE!!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

I had the engine firing today, but my home built sparkplug gave up the ghost early in the game. I "borrowed" the Traxxas Pro 15 carburetor off the Webster, and had it not been for the home built sparkplug I am pretty confident it would have ran. Where does one look to find small sparkplugs in North America. I'm damn tight for room in around my valve towers, and I may need to build an adapter sleeve because my sparkplug thread is 5/16-28. I can bore the head out and sleeve in a 1/4" thread if I have to. Somebody was suggesting a plug with a 1/4" thread, but I don't know what his source was.----Brian


----------



## doc1955

Try here.
J.E. Howell model engines


Or here
Rimfire plugs


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## Brian Rupnow

I did a web search and turned up this source---
http://www.cncengines.com/ic.html


----------



## ref1ection

These guys carry small plugs and they`re in Markham.

http://www.prcmodel.com/modeng/name/onlinestore/catid/25/start/0

Ray


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## Brian Rupnow

One more thing to try before I run out to buy a sparkplug.--If I could buy one that matched the threads already in my cyl. head with a really skinny body I would buy one, but I am going to have one more kick at the can and build a much heavier sparkplug. I will still use the Corian, but with a much heavier diameter center electrode (1/16") which shoud help stiffen the Corian and keep it from breaking so easily. The body will be larger in diameter, and mostly round. The spark gap is large, but this is a low compression engine and I can easily jump a spark across 1/4" of air gap on my test bench. This engine will depend mainly on loctite for assembly.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

As my friend Crocodile Dundee would say---"Now THIS is a sparkplug!!!!!"


----------



## Jasonb

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Somebody was suggesting a plug with a 1/4" thread, but I don't know what his source was.----Brian



I think that was me back on page 2 of this thread, I see you have foind a US source for them.

You can get M8 plugs, some of the commercial large RC plane engines use them, you may just get away with retapping your 5/16 thread for one of these.

Jason


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## Brian Rupnow

I just did a "test fire" of the plug on my workbench. More spark there than a lightning storm!!! I'm going to find it very difficul waiting untill tomorrow to test fire the engine with the new plug.


----------



## ozzie46

AAAWWWW Go on! You know you wanna! :big: :big: :big:

 Ron


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## rleete

Stop torturing us! Get the camera, and fire that puppy up.


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## Brian Rupnow

I couldn't wait. The plug works great, but the engine won't stay running. It will run as long as the electric drill is "helping" it, but it won't stay running on its own. I tried many different settings on the ignition timing and on the cam timing, and although it "wants" really bad to run on its own, it won't. There are only two possible things it can be. I don't really like the shape of the valve cam----It seems to be far to abrupt in the way it closes the exhaust valve----not so much in the way it opens it, but the fact that there is very little "dwell" on the cam, so that when the exhaust valve opens, it doesn't stay open for any amount of time, and immediately begins closing again. On the cam for the Webster, which is my only other i.c. experience, there is a fairly large "land" on the high part of the cam, so that when it opens the exhaust valve, it stays open during the entire exhaust stroke. Its easy enough to make a new cam, but first I have to address poor valve sealing which is still plaguing me. When I built the new valve cages, I re-used the old valves, knowing full well that I might have to make new valves in the future.---I even bought some 1/4" and some 3/8" drill rod to do it with. I will probably follow Chuck Fellows "step by step" of how he makes his valves out of drill rod, using a carbide lathe tool and finishes them off with a file and fine emery paper. I have never had good compression on this engine from day one, and I had excellent compression on the Webster, and it ran very easy first time I tried it. If the new valves don't get me a running engine, then I will tackle the cam.


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## bearcar1

Could it be that the center electrode isn't 'exposed' enough in the combustion chamber to initiate the flame front? I am certainly not an expert in the field of ignition but it just looks like it should be a bit more open and not up inside the end of the plug. That or the fuel charge being drawn in isn't rich enough.  Man I don't know, but the suspense is killing me.

BC1
Jim


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## metalmad

good job on the plugs Brian
and thank u for posting your plan changes as u go 
a spark plug is on my list of things to make 
Pete


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## Brian Rupnow

Bearcar---The plug is firing the ignition mix okay. I can hear it, I can smell burned fuel, and I can feel the "kick" on the electric drill when it fires.


----------



## bearcar1

Well, so much for that idea of folly then. Carry on. :bow:

BC1
Jim


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## cfellows

Brian, any chance you've got too much friction or does the engine spin over freely? Just a thought...

Chuck


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## Lakc

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Bearcar---The plug is firing the ignition mix okay. I can hear it, I can smell burned fuel, and I can feel the "kick" on the electric drill when it fires.


It may just be in the way that comment was written, but if its kicking against the drill, back off the timing advance a bit.


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## Brian Rupnow

Honestly guys, I have no idea right now. I theorize---that if the engine had more compression, then when it did fire there would be much more kinetic energy created to carry the flywheels through two complete revolutions, in spite of any "stiffness" in the engine. It was definitly firing, running right along with the electric drill. Trouble was, when I disngaged the drill, the engine quickly coasted to a stop. I tried advancing and retarding the cam timing, and advancing and retarding the ignition timing, and every conceivable carburator setting. If something wasn't wrong, the engine would have ran. I pulled the sparkplug afterwards, and as I had suspected, it had been firing right along---there was a nice black layer of soot on the end of the plug. There is nothing more I can do now except make new valves, and MAYBE a different profile cam for the valves.


----------



## Lakc

I have had luck with starting fullsize engines with valve leaks by using a little compressed air through the throttle. Perhaps you could use a little negative pressure at the exhaust.

This is the tough part, and now you know why doctors cant work on their own family members. Sometimes your too close to the issue to have a clear view of the problems.


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## Brian Rupnow

I'm pooched!!! Made two new valves today from drill rod, did the complete Chuck Fellows step by step. They looked great. Put everything back together, and compression is no different than it was before!!!! I am rapidly running out of ideas. Just for the heck of it, I tried to start the engine agin. It runs, it fires, it does all the right things, but as soon as I take the drill motor away, it runs for about 15 seconds and stops. The only things left to do are #1--build a valve seat cutter like Chuck did and see if that improves things at all, and #2--I'm going to remake the exhaust cam---I don't like the shape of the one I currently have.


----------



## kcmillin

Brian, from your earlier posts you were saying the valve does not stay open long enough. 

When you turn the engine over the valve should open slightly before the bottom of the power stroke and then close at top dead center. 

In my experience with the Tiny I noticed that when the cam wore down it got a lot quieter and would not run very long. 

Also, I experienced some compression issues with the Tiny when the head bolt stripped out, it would still run, even though it was leaking a lot of air, and the compression was nearly unnoticeable yet it still ran.

When does the valve open and close on your's? 

Kel


----------



## GailInNM

Brian,
At the speeds the hit and miss run at the cam shape is not too critical but the open an close timing is. I have been shooting for the exhaust to start open about 5 to 10 degrees before BDC and to be fully closed a few degrees after TDC. On Tiny I am a little bit short of this, but since it is working OK I am not too worried. It is running with the exhaust starting to open at 5 degrees before BDC and is fully closed at TDC. 
Gail in NM


----------



## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> compression is no different than it was before!!!!
> The only things left to do are #1--build a valve seat cutter like Chuck did and see if that improves things at all, and #2--I'm going to remake the exhaust cam---I don't like the shape of the one I currently have.



The compression not changing may indicate that the valves you had it it and the new valves are good.

Poor cam timing can effect compression if it is off real bad. Have you checked the timing on your cam as well as its duration? I'm not sure because I have no first hand experience with your engine but... Maybe the engine isn't getting a good breath due to the exhaust valve closing way to late?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The drawing tells it all----


----------



## Brian Rupnow

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> The compression not changing may indicate that the valves you had it it and the new valves are good.
> 
> Poor cam timing can effect compression if it is off real bad. Have you checked the timing on your cam as well as its duration? I'm not sure because I have no first hand experience with your engine but... Maybe the engine isn't getting a good breath due to the exhaust valve closing way to late?



Steve---Been there, done that changed valve timing about 50 times. Changed ignition timing 50 more.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I lay in bed last night with my head on fire (Not an uncommon occurance) thinking about the math related to cam profiles.The exhaust valve should open 10 to 15 degrees before the piston reaches bottom dead center on the power stroke, and at or very slightly before the piston reaches top dead center during the exhaust stroke. Without taking "lead" and "lag" into consideration, this means that the exhaust valve should stay in its opening/open/closing/closed cycle during 180 degrees of the crankshaft rotation. Since the camshaft and exhaust cam run at exactly half the speed of the crankshaft, that means that everything that happens with the cam (in relationship to exhaust valve travel) should happen during 90 degrees of its rotation. This in turn means that there should be 270 degrees of the cam that is truly "circular" so that it has no influence on the valve during its full rotation. Based on that premise, the camshaft should look like the one I've drawn.With this configuration, if you set the valve timing so that the exhaust valve started to be influenced to open by the cam at exactly bdc, then it would be fully open at half the piston travel between bdc and tdc, and closed by the time the piston reached exactly tdc. If you set the cam timing to begin opening the exhaust valve exactly 10 degrees before bottom dead center, then it (the exhaust valve) would be fully closed exactly 10 degrees before the piston reached top dead center on the exhaust stroke. The cam profile would look exactly as shown in the drawing.---Any comments??


----------



## Tumbletown

Brian

You have 90 degrees between the tangent points. If you widened that to 95 degrees wouldn't you then have 190 degree cam action which can be adjusted to 10 degree BDC to TDC....

Or am I not thinking straight?

Adrian


----------



## GailInNM

Brian,
You might want to widen the 90 degrees out some to allow for valve lash (clearance). As I recall the follower is a ball bearing on the Kerzel. With your CAD, place the follower in position and allow whatever clearance you desire between the base diameter on the cam and the OD of the follower. I use about 0.008 inches. Then rotate the cam to make contact with the flank and the follower. Twice this rotation angle will get subtracted from the cam as drawn. It is a significant amount with a roller cam.
Gail in NM


----------



## NickG

Brian, I think what you've said is right (I understand it anyway) and the new profile should work. That is very similar to the webster except that maybe has a slightly longer duration. As Adrian says, you could widen that duration to open a little before BDC and shut a little after TDC in line with Gail's comments.

Those 5 degrees or so before BDC and after TDC you are not gaining anything by having the exhaust closed as the piston is hardly moving, so it won't be giving you any more power just before BDC and it won't have started to open the inlet just after TDC. However, you will exhaust more efficiently by having it open in those periods though (I think) is that right Gail?

Nick


----------



## NickG

Oh, think Gail's just answered that question before I clicked submit! :big: Thanks Gail.

Nick


----------



## GailInNM

Nick, you are right. That is a separate issue from what I was talking about, but also applies. I just pulled up the Tiny drawing and checked to see what I had done on it. Without allowing for valve lash, I had 110 degrees of exhaust from start to finish. With a 0.005 allowance for lash it dropped to 105 and with 0.010 lash it dropped to 99 degrees. Those are cam degrees, so double those numbers for crankshaft degrees. It has a flat cam follower which is not affected by lash as much as a roller follower. I think it could use another few degrees added to open the exhaust a little earlier, but I don't think so enough to make a new cam.
Gail in NM


----------



## dvbydt

Brian,

Just a thought on the points set up. The spark occurs when the points just open. The coil has to have time to charge up with the points closed and if I remember your cam just has a small flat on it - is this enough closed time to develop a good spark under dynamic conditions?

Ian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

dvbydt  said:
			
		

> Brian,
> 
> Just a thought on the points set up. The spark occurs when the points just open. The coil has to have time to charge up with the points closed and if I remember your cam just has a small flat on it - is this enough closed time to develop a good spark under dynamic conditions?
> 
> Ian


Giant spark---No issues. I have another IC engine that uses the same cam, and runs fine, no problem


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Have you taken into account the type of contact between the cam and the cam follower ??? As I understand, if it's not point to point e.g. a flat follower, then the cam has to be altered to allow for this.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Brian Rupnow

After a day of mulling this over, I have arrived at the following conclusion. The theoretical 90 degrees of exhaust profile on the cam is correct, but it doesn't make allowances for valve lash, nor does it allow for opening the valve 10 to 15 degrees before bdc and keeping it open untill tdc. Again, I keep going back to something I have built, that I know the parameters of and that works---namely the Webster. I went back and checked the profile of the Webster cam (which I had created in 3D at the time I built it), and was quite surprised to see that it had a total of 117 degrees of exhaust profile. Now if I consider my theoretical 90 degrees, plus 7.5 degrees for opening the valve 15 degrees before bdc, that brings me up to 97.5 degrees. Where does the other 19.5 degrees come from?---Well, perhaps some allowance for valve lash---I don't know, as the Webster cam was originally created by Mr Webster (I assume) and I just used his geometry data to build the solid model and the cam. I know it works well, so I will copy that same 117 degrees of exhaust profile and see what happens.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Brian,
> 
> Have you taken into account the type of contact between the cam and the cam follower ??? As I understand, if it's not point to point e.g. a flat follower, then the cam has to be altered to allow for this.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob


Maryak--The webster cam rode against a flat pivoting lever which opened the exhaust valve by pressing on the end of the valve stem with the other end of that pivoting lever. The ratio of lever from one end of the lever to the other was very close to 1:1. On the Kerzel engine, the cam acts on a cam follower bearing which is connected to the end of the pushrod which operates a pivoting lever (the rocker arm) and then onto the end of the exhaust valve. Perhaps allowances would have to be made for this difference, but I'm certain I don't know what the allowances are. This is getting into an area of engineering math related to engine building that I have no training in. I am at the point of "Try it and see if it works" engineering. What I currently have doesn't work---I do know that. So---I will try a cam based on something that I know does work. Not a very scientific approach, but I don't really have any alternatives.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Now, if I've done this right, I should just have to walk it over to the lathe and part it off-----


----------



## Lakc

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I am at the point of "Try it and see if it works" engineering.


Nothing at all wrong with that. It adds an element of fun, and afterall, thats why we do this. ;D

That cam looks good, brass parts are always prettier.


----------



## metalmad

Hi Brian
Brass does look great but wont it wear even on a hit and miss?
not long now, will it be today?
Pete


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Have a look at http://modelenginenews.org/

Search for:

*CamCalc*

Last update: March 22, 2007

This page will generate a table of lift figures for a harmonic cam from values entered in the fields below. The lift table is used in machining the cam profile by the milling method (see Page 7 of the Feeney Construction series for a description of this process). The following links provide more detailed information. The links from the parameter labels explain what is required for each.

  Some brief notes on how this all works.
  A (thankfully) brief technical explaination.
  The Effect of Tappet Clearence.
  Source Code for the Terminally Curious.
  Acknowledgements on the genesis of this tool. 

Hope this helps as well.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## NickG

Bob, have had that cam calc saved in my favourites for years, keep meaning to have a look at it.

Brian, refer to Gail's post above, on his tiny engine it only took 0.010" lash to equate to 11 cam degrees but he says roller followers are more susceptible to lash.

Good luck with your latest profile.

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

NO JOY!!!!!!  The new cam does make the engine fire more consistently, but it still won't run on its own, with either carburetor, my home built one or the Traxxas Pro15 carb. I may try something like propane for fuel, just for giggles, but ---I still have no compression. Next step (and about the only thing left I haven't tried) is to build a valve seat cutter like Chuck did. After that, if it still has no compression and won't run, I'll set it up on the shelf beside Zee's train, and never machine anything again!!! :'( :'( :'(


----------



## Lakc

Stick a funnel on the carb inlet and put a stout fan blowing into and try again. Get it running for more then a few pops and it may help the valves to seat.


----------



## cfellows

Brian, another pretty easy thing to try is a vapor fuel tank instead of the carb. They are really easy to build and seem to be a lot more forgiving than a carburetor.






Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Lakc--Tried your method---Doesn't work at all on these small engines, at least not for me. Chuck---I tried it on Propane this afternoon----Same as gasoline---It fires right along, runs great then coasts to a stop as soon as I shut the drill motor off.


----------



## Lakc

Tough luck there Brian. Compression is undoubtedly very important. Some more information seems to be in order, I would suggest a leakdown test. Removing the spark plug, making an adapter for air pressurizing the cylinder at TDC, you should be able to hear where the air escapes from.


----------



## bronson

Brain i can't remember if you did this or not, but did you try using valve grinding compound and an a drill to get your valves to seat. I'am sure you thought of this.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Bronson---I did lap the valves with valve grinding compound---By Hand. You NEVER EVER use an electric power tool when lapping valves. All that does is gall the stems and burn the faces off the valves and seats.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---This may be my next step. There's nothing else left!!! I bought a foot of 3/8" drill rod when I bought the 1/4" drill rod to make the valves---Thinking of course that I might have to build a valve seat cutter like you did. I don't have much if any experience with drill rod. I do have carbide lathe tooling and some carbide boring bars, but no other carbide tooling. Can I drill and ream drill rod (0.093") and end mill the four "facets" with conventional HSS tooling, sharpen it with a small grinder like you did, then harden the drill rod by heating it cherry red and an oil quench? I've got the engine to a point where there is no "bind" in the bearings at all, and I feel absolutely no compression when turning it over by hand. I know the rings are good, because when I bolted on a solid "blocker plate" with a gasket in place of the cylinder head, it would kick back under its own compression quite readily when I tried to spin it by hand. I've got it to the point now where it will run by itself for 10 to 15 seconds, then just gradually die out, similar to what fuel starvation would do, but I know its not fuel starvation---does the same thing with two different carbs. Its SOOOOOOOOOO close!!!!


----------



## stevehuckss396

Just tossing this one out there but could the valve springs be to light. If the spring pulled a little harder maybe the valves would seal some more. 

Could the exhaust valve be being pulled open on the intake stroke? I dont know!!


----------



## Brian Rupnow

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Just tossing this one out there but could the valve springs be to light. If the spring pulled a little harder maybe the valves would seal some more.
> 
> Could the exhaust valve be being pulled open on the intake stroke? I dont know!!


Nope---Checked that.


----------



## tel




----------



## stevehuckss396

Here i go again!!!


I can't remember but did you cut the seats into the head or did you use a cage. If cage then could the valves be sealing but the leak be between the head and the cage? Wouldn't know how to check for that but I have heard of it happening. 

Again just trying to think of something. Sorry if i'm pestering! Not that i'm going to stop! :big: :big:


----------



## kcmillin

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Nope---Checked that.



Perhaps it could be that the intake valve is too strong, and the intake valve is not opening long enough or not enough height. (actually it vibrates, I took high speed video of mine while running) I had a lot of trial and error getting the spring to work, but then again that does not solve the compression issue. 

I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud now.

Kel


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I used cages and loctited them in. The intake valve spring is very light---i can see the intake working llike crazy when I am running it with the drill motor and when its running on its own.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

tel  said:
			
		

>


Tel---I love it!!!


----------



## stevehuckss396

Well I move that Brian start over completely from scratch and make a whole new one.

All in favor say I!!!


That's all I can think of. Best of luck and if something hits me i'll try again.


----------



## bearcar1

What about the height of the fuel tank. You mentioned that it acts like it 'runs out of gas' after a short period of time when you remove the drill. Like Steve, just spit ballin'.
I like Tels' product in a can. Pretty much says it all.

BC1
Jim


----------



## metalmad

Hi Brian 
i guess u did the spark timing as well as the valve timing ?
running right way?
is the fuel any good?
so close Mate


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Whatever is going on, its going on with my intake valve. I have a VERY light spring on it, and its opening under engine vacuum while the drill motor is turning the engine. However, if I flip the engine over by hand, I feel no compression. BUT---and its a big BUT--If I fiddle a bit with the intake valve with one hand while trying to turn the engine over with the other hand, I can get a really good compression kick back. The valve stem seems to be a bit undersize---I can wiggle the stem in the guide. The conundrum of course, is that if I put in a stronger spring, the engine isn't able to pull the valve open. If I leave the current light spring in there, the valve isn't sealing consistently. I find it very encouraging though, that I am getting compression kickback under some conditions. That tells me that the exhaust valve with its stronger spring is sealing adequately. Maybe on Saturday, I'll make another intake valve and lap it in, see if I can't get it to deal consistently.


----------



## bronson

Good to hear you are narrowing down the issue i was just about to see if you did the leakdown test that was posted before. I find that to be a very helpful test being a tech. I hope that the intake valve fixes the issue.


----------



## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I have a VERY light spring on it, and its opening under engine vacuum while the drill motor is turning the engine. However, if I flip the engine over by hand, I feel no compression. BUT---and its a big BUT--If I fiddle a bit with the intake valve with one hand while trying to turn the engine over with the other hand, I can get a really good compression kick back.



Make a new retainer thicker than the present one, so the spring is compressed more and see if a bit more spring pressure helps or hurts. Again, maybe you just need to pull on it a little harder. Better yet, make one thick as he!! and then keep facing off a little at a time and see if that makes any difference.


----------



## Lakc

stevehuckss396  said:
			
		

> Make a new retainer thicker than the present one, so the spring is compressed more and see if a bit more spring pressure helps or hurts. Again, maybe you just need to pull on it a little harder. Better yet, make one thick as he!! and then keep facing off a little at a time and see if that makes any difference.


Time for the old "stack of washers".


----------



## stevehuckss396

Lakc  said:
			
		

> Time for the old "stack of washers".



In a manner of speaking.


----------



## jpeter

I test my valve seating success by sealing the combustion chamber, then blowing into the sparkplug hole with my breath while the valve assembly is under water. I have a length of silicon tube attached to a motified sparkplug for the test. If a bubble appears more often than every 4 or 5 seconds my valve work isn't good enough. Early in the hobby I didn't know how good valve seating had to be and thus I had lots of difficulty getting my engines to start and run well. I still make leaky valves I just find them and fix them quicker. My engines with bad valves would run at high rpm, generally hot. They'd not idle well at all. Same result for a bad fitting piston/cylinder. Now-a-days I know what to look for. Try the bubble test. If nothing else you'll learn a lot. 
BTY, if your cam is like your drawing shows and the rise area is truly a straight line like the drawing and the follower is flat faced you're accelerating the hell out of the valve train. Its gonna pound the system to death. Most cams I've seen are more pointy with the rise and fall lines, although slightly curved to provide a reasonable acceleration, almost perpendicular to each other. Seems to me you've got an extremely long dwell period when the valve is open. Excuse me if I'm wrong I'm just trying to be helpful.


----------



## fcheslop

Hi Brian,I had a similar problem with Little Angel and found that the inlet valve was under size on the valve stem and believe it was sucking air down the valve stem instead of through the carb remade the valve and away she went.The inlet spring was a swine to set up just enough to seat the valve but still allow it to open. Not trying to tell my granny how to suck eggs just a suggestion.Best of luck
regards Frazer


----------



## cfellows

fcheslop  said:
			
		

> Hi Brian,I had a similar problem with Little Angel and found that the inlet valve was under size on the valve stem and believe it was sucking air down the valve stem instead of through the carb remade the valve and away she went.The inlet spring was a swine to set up just enough to seat the valve but still allow it to open. Not trying to tell my granny how to suck eggs just a suggestion.Best of luck
> regards Frazer



I had this same issue on my plumbing parts engine, but it was only a problem when I had the carb throttled way back. If your carb is wide open, I don't think a loose inlet valve stem will be a problem and it's easily overcome by richening up the mixture.

Chuck


----------



## NickG

I think the loose valve stem problem may be causing it not to seat correctly as Brian said when he fiddled with it, compression came back. If he doesn't get compression it'll never run. Think he's on the right track. Brian there was some good dialogue around valve seats in the Tiny I.C. post, a good suggestion was to use a counter sink and make a very narrow valve seat. Alternatively, the way you mentioned leaving the topslide at the same setting to make the cutter and valves.

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm just tickled pink to have good compression and "kick back" on the engine--even "sometimes". Its something I have never previously felt at all. Like I said, that pretty well confirms that the exhaust valve is seating correctly and consistently. Its not a big deal to remake the intake valve. Thats a Saturday morning job.


----------



## ozzie46

Brian, sorry I don't have the knowledge or expertise to advise on what to do but I'm rooting like all get out for you to find the problem and come to a successful solution.

  However I'm learning quite bit from all the feedback. Sorry it's at your expense though.


  Fingers, toes and eyes crossed here. Good luck.

 Ron


----------



## GailInNM

Brian,
You may have said, but I can't find it if you did. What fuel are you using. If you are using naphtha, Coleman or equivalent, try switching to gasoline. On my engines gasoline gives more power per stroke. If there is a bit of excess friction some where in the system causing the engine to slow down it may be enough to overcome it and keep it running. If using gasoline already, is it fresh? 
Gail in NM


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Gail---I've been using Naptha. I will try real gasoline and see what happens.----thanks----Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Gail---No real joy with the gasoline except stinkier and foggier!!! I am holding out really high hopes for better results with a new intake valve. Its making me crazy---I flip the engine by hand and it spins freely. I wiggle the intake valve stem a little bit, flip the engine over, and it bounces back like it had ran into a wall!!!


----------



## gbritnell

Brian, 
It sounds like your valve guide is too loose. The reason I say that is because if the guide was tight (relative term) and the valve wasn't sitting on it's seat properly no amount of jiggling would align the valve with the seat. On the other hand if the guide was loose and the valve wasn't seating properly in one spot so wiggling it caused it to seat then I would say that your guide, valve or seat could be the culprit. 

 In my thread about building the new 4 cylinder OHV engine head I show and explain how I do the valve seats for my engines. (page 3)
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6205.30
As has been stated every component of a valve job is important, the valve head concentric with the valve stem, the valve guide concentric with the seat and the fit of the stem to the guide. The concentricity of the valve head to stem is the easiest to check out, just chuck the stem and indicate it until it runs dead true then put the indicator on the seat area and see if it is concentric. The stem to guide clearance should be no more than .0005 for say stems up to .125 diameter. The last thing in the equation is the concentricity of the seat to the valve guide hole. Even if the port hole and the guide hole are a little off if you make up a rigid tool like I show and just let it skim the seat surface it should take out any irregularity. 

 It's not that it's rocket science but it requires a little bit more accuracy on the part of the builder to overcome this part of IC engine building. I would say more builders have problems with this aspect of IC building than any other part. 

George


----------



## Brian Rupnow

George---I'll ask you the same question I asked chuck --(I think he missed it or he would have answered)

-This may be my next step. There's nothing else left!!! I bought a foot of 3/8" drill rod when I bought the 1/4" drill rod to make the valves---Thinking of course that I might have to build a valve seat cutter like you did. I don't have much if any experience with drill rod. I do have carbide lathe tooling and some carbide boring bars, but no other carbide tooling. Can I end mill the four "facets" with conventional HSS tooling, sharpen it with a small grinder or file, then harden the drill rod by heating it cherry red and a waterquench?


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> George---I'll ask you the same question I asked chuck --(I think he missed it or he would have answered)
> 
> Can I end mill the four "facets" with conventional HSS tooling, sharpen it with a small grinder or file, then harden the drill rod by heating it cherry red and a waterquench?



Yes on the end mill. Sharpen with a slip stone after heat treating and drawing back (tempering).The piece will become non-magnetic when the critical temperature is reached (one way of telling). Water quench only if you have W-1 drill rod. W-1= water, O-1=oil, A-1= air hardening.

The link below should give you the basics you need to harden tool steels properly.

http://www.uddeholm.com/files/heattreatment-english.pdf

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

MetalButcher---Thanks ----Can you explain the bit about "sharpening with a slipstone" please. I'm not sure what a slipstone is.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Brian,
Here's what I do. You can mill the desired tool with a high speed end mill. Turn the pilot just long enough to allow the 45* cutter part to touch the seat area. The rest of the stock from the pilot to the 45* cutter can be just a little smaller than the port diameter. The pilot should be made size for size with your guide hole. After the tool is hardened if the pilot is a little too tight you can emery it down until it just fits in the guide hole. Cut your 45* seat diameter a little larger than what your valve opening is. Example: if your valve head is .25 dia. then make the O.D. of the cutter .312 diameter. 
Cut your flutes (at least 4) and cut some relief on them leaving about .015 from the cutting edge to where the relief starts. (a small land) Now harden the tool. Get it cherry red or until a magnet won't stick and dunk it into the liquid of your choice, ATF for oil hardening or just plain water for water hardening. When you stick it in the liquid plunge it straight down and then rotate it around. 
For small tools I don't anneal them and I've never had one break, especially a seat cutting tool.
Now using a magnifier, unless your eyes are much better than mine, stone the small land area (.015) back away from the cutting edge with a diamond hone or a small whetstone giving it a little angle for clearance. 
You can also stone the face of the cutter to remove any small burrs . 
Now put the cutter in a small drill chuck and oil the guide post and slip it into the valve guide hole. Just using the weight of the chuck, rotate it slowly until you see a nice uniform seat form around the port opening. At this point you should be good to go but as a secondary step you could just hit the seat/valve with a little grinding compound. 
Put the valve into the guide and grab it from the back with a small drill chuck, (small drill chuck) and allow the valve enough up and down movement to get some lapping compound under it. Now rotate the valve all the while lifting it up and down to recharge the compound under it. By that I don't mean keep adding more compound I just mean this will allow the valve to pick up more compound from around the seat area. It shouldn't take but about 5 or 6 cycles of this to clean everything up nicely. 
Now clean everything scrupulously. You don't want any compound left in the port hole or in the valve guide hole. 
If the valve gods are on your side you should have a perfect seal. 
George


----------



## Brian Rupnow

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> cut some relief on them leaving about .015 from the cutting edge to where the relief starts.


George---This is the only part I'm not sure how to do. Do I use a file?--Seems like an awfully small area to work in without damaging the cutting edge of the adjacent flute.----Brian


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> MetalButcher---Thanks ----Can you explain the bit about "sharpening with a slipstone" please. I'm not sure what a slipstone is.



Just another way to say sharpening stones. They come in a variety of shapes and grits and are used to sharpen irregular shaped cutting tools, where a flat all purpose 'sharpening stone' wont do.

Examples: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/India-Slip-Stone-Set-P78C30.aspx

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/norton_slips.htm

-MB


----------



## gbritnell

Brian,
You can use a small jeweler's file and the above mentioned magnifier. You only need enough clearance so that the cutting edge touches and not the flank. 
George


----------



## cfellows

Hey Brian, guess I missed your earlier post... I'm a bit of a putz with hardening and filing and honing. I didn't harden my cutter since my valve seats were brass. Also, tried grinding some relief behind the cutting edge, but I didn't get very close to the cutting edge, so there is about a 1/16" land behind each tooth. As a result, I had to press kind of hard to get it to cut. And, at the end of the day, I'm not sure how successful it was. I still had to lap the valves.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The continuing education of Brian----Thanks guys. I had never heard of a "slipstone" before. Now I'm off to google "Jewellers file".---Lord, I feel pathetic sometimes.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

cfellows  said:
			
		

> Hey Brian, guess I missed your earlier post... I'm a bit of a putz with hardening and filing and honing. I didn't harden my cutter since my valve seats were brass. Also, tried grinding some relief behind the cutting edge, but I didn't get very close to the cutting edge, so there is about a 1/16" land behind each tooth. As a result, I had to press kind of hard to get it to cut. And, at the end of the day, I'm not sure how successful it was. I still had to lap the valves.
> 
> Chuck



Thats the question, isn't it Chuck. Is it really worth making a tool to cut one valve seat!!! I'm torn here. I really don't want to take the head off this engine again after tomorrow. I will definitly make a new valve from drill rod , because the stem on the intake valve is undersize. I do have a container of Permatex valve lapping compound, and the seat (valve cage) is made of brass. I can do a heck of a lot of lapping in the time it would take me to make a valve seat cutting tool like George Britnells. I'm not sure I'm a total putz at filing and honing, but I'm light years away from Georges abilities. I think the plan will be #1---Make a new valve  #2--Lap the valve. #3---Lap the valve some more. ---#4 Then lap it a bit more. #5--Put some permanet marker on it and do the concenticity test. #6---Pray----#7---Reassemble engine.


----------



## RonGinger

I would give up on lapping compound. For a small engine like this you want a very small seat- likely no more that 5-8 thou wide. Think about the scale factor- the seat width in a big engine is only a thin ring, maybe .050 wide.

Make a new head, keep the seat as sharp and square as possible, then make Georges tool and give it just the smallest hand turn for a tiny ring.

Is also make a simple plate to bolt the head to, like what you did to test the cylinder. Put aire pressure on it and test for leaks


----------



## jpeter

I'd suggest that after doing a slight amount of lapping remove the valve and inspect the seat to see if the compound is cutting completely around the seat. What'll happen if the seat's not concentric with the guide is the valve will be offset and won't completely seat. That trouble's not too oncommon cuz drills don't always start in the center where they're suppose to. 

Lapping will only remove a few .0001 of an inch so lapping a valve into a non concentric seat probably won't work.

The seat cutter is not a bad idea. They're not complex to make. Fifteen minutes with a lathe and dremel grinder and you'll have one in your hand. They're just a 45 degree angle cone with a short straight turn for a guide. Grind a cutting edge on it after you harden it. Just turn it, heat it with a torch, and dip it in oil. I've had luck dremeling a slot for a cutting tooth on soft steel then raising a burr for a cutting edge. Harden it after that. To harden it I like to spin it in a hand drill while I heat it and dip it. It tends to heat it more evenly that way. Forget about tempering it. The seat wants to be cut really narrow, maybe .003 so hand cutting it only requires a few turns of the tool. (maybe 2 or 3 turns) Don't push too hard or you may gouge out an area.


----------



## NickG

I'd recommend the method Gail used on his tiny, drill & ream the guide, counter bore then cut a very narrow seat with counter sink. Minimal lapping is required, just enough so there is a clean polished ring all the way around. People really seem to go over the top with lapping.

Nick


----------



## Metal Butcher

I'll be facing the same issue of getting valves that seat and seal completely. The idea of making a 'valve cage' with the reamed stem bore, reamed clearance counter bore, and valve seat all cut in one set-up seems to be the only way to achieve the accuracy needed.

I fail to see how a machined, hand sharpened seat cutter twisted by a shaky hand would be more accurate than precision ground factory made cutter's, guided by the rigidity of a machine spindle. ???

In the event that the shop made seat cutter is the only way out (no cage), with out a detailed drawing and step by step instructions, a beginner couldn't even think... of making one. :shrug:

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I just pulled the intake valve and miked the stem. --Right on 0.093 at the top end away from the valve head, ---But 0.088 down closer to the head, in the guided area. It was held in the 3 jaw at the end where the head is.-appears that during machining the small end kept deflecting away from the cutter and not cutting, whilst the end closer to where it was held in the chuck didn't deflect, so consequently ended up smaller. Will watch cloer for that next time around (in about 15 minutes).


----------



## jpeter

The comment regarding how a guide could be more accurate than a machine: Its is because the drill used to drill the valve guide hole, unless special care is taken, often does not start in the center, thus making the guide hole off center. The seat cutter is constructed with a guide on the tip that extends into the valve guide hole so if the hole is somewhat off center the cutter guided by the guide on the tip will move the seat over to center.


----------



## gbritnell

Brian,

 The trick to cutting a valve is to not cut the entire stem length in one finish pass. Let me explain. I don't mean that the whole stem would be cut in one pass knowing that it would take several to accomplish this, what I mean is rather than cut the whole length of the stem in successive passes getting smaller and smaller until reaching the desired diameter which you found out will cause the stem to spring just cut say 1/3 of the length to size in successive passes. Record your finish dial reading. Now cut another 1/3 to size and finally cut the remaining 1/3. You can even leave a small amount on the diameter if you wish .0005. Then lightly file and polish the stem to size. When cutting a small diameter there is no way to keep the spring out of the part.

 An alternative machining method would be to center drill your stock with a small center drill, just enough to seat a live center. Now move the stock out from the chuck so you have working room, tighten the chuck and set the live center. Now you can turn the entire length of the stem to size without any spring. Just leave a big enough diameter at the center end to maintain support. When you are finished turning just cut the excess material with the center hole off. 

 As far as how to cut valve seats or any part for that matter everyone has their own ideas. If the finished part works then that person's idea is good. The problem with using a 'twist drill' is that it can drill off center. Yeah I know you said you center drilled the hole first so it will drill right on center. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. There is a reason why so many fellows are having problems with this process, just ask Steve Huck how many valve cages he has made. When you machine this very nice looking valve cage how is it going to be installed in the head, a light press fit? Might it distort a little when you do this? Maybe it will and maybe it won't. 
I have presented my machining processes because they have worked better for me than other ways that I have tried. Does that mean my way is the only way to do something, absolutely and categorically not!!!

 In the process of building an engine of any complexity the builder generally ends up with more than a few mounting or chucking fixtures and special tools, it's just part of the building process. Like I said, if you can do something without making a special tool and have it work by all means go for it but certainly don't avoid making a tool because it takes time and skill. Doesn't it take skill to build an engine? Wasn't there new machining methods learned when going from a steam/air engine to an internal combustion engine? 

The reason for the pilot on the tool is to allow people with shaky hands to accomplish the job. The pilot keeps the tool aligned and tight in the guide hole. 

As an aside to this reply, when they machine symmetrical holes on full sized engines the operation is done with one tool. The tool is a specially manufactured tool with a pilot, possibly several counterbores and possibly a chamber. The reason for this is because they realize that by changing tools you can add dimensional error to 
an operation. 

George


----------



## Metal Butcher

Thanks Jim and George. Good explanation on why a guided seat cutter would have a better chance of producing a valve seat concentric with the valve stem guide bore, opposed to relying on the cutters (drills & reamers, and seat cutter) to produce this in one set-up. Makes perfect sense. I don't have enough experience in producing leaky valve stems to have realized a need for this tool/technique. With one valve on my build of Chuck's single, and two on the John Deere, both sealed with out a problem. Must just be dumb luck, since I'm just a rookie.

The Kerzel plans do not suggest the use of a valve seat cutter, all operations are done in one set-up. The Upshur plans do, since short 'valve guides' are used, but no information on how to make one. I'm sticking with the designers plan, and hoping some one will post complete information on (or link to) making a proper valve seat cutter. 

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

MetalButcher---If its a detail drawing you want, you've come to the right place!!! I made a new intake valve today, got the shank perfect, no undersize. Put it in the engine and it doesn't work as good as it did yesterday---Can't get compression at all now. I am soon going to start running in circles and biting myself. I've got all my kids coming here this evening for a mass birthday feast (the two boys were born the same day 3 years apart.)---However, tomorrow morning I will do up a detail drawing of the cutter like GBritnell built. If you want to send me the specs on your valve and guide, I'll make a detail of a cutter for your particular engine and post it for you. ----Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This is the cutter GBritnell made.---Beautifull work, very clever. I don't generally do plagerism, but I think George will probably forgive me if I put up a detail drawing of what he did. And of course, if I get anything wrong, I know George will correct me!!!


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This is a detail of my valve cages----


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This shows the valve seat cutter in place in the cage---


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This is the solid model of the valve seat cutter


----------



## jpeter

Engines will run with somewhat leaky valves. Whats fun though is running your engine with perfect valve and piston seals. When you can hand start it for your friends by hardly having to pull it through they know you've got it right. When I go to the show and watch a guy try several times to rope start or have to get out the drill to electric start his engine I know its not built good enough. some engines are just naturally a little fussy but most of the time an engine hard to hand start is leaking compression somewhere.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

and this is a detail of the valve seat cutting tool for my engine---(The sharpening of the flutes is not shown)





View attachment VALVE SEAT CUTTER.PDF


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> MetalButcher---If its a detail drawing you want, you've come to the right place!!! I made a new intake valve today, got the shank perfect, no undersize. Put it in the engine and it doesn't work as good as it did yesterday---Can't get compression at all now. I am soon going to start running in circles and biting myself. I've got all my kids coming here this evening for a mass birthday feast (the two boys were born the same day 3 years apart.)---However, tomorrow morning I will do up a detail drawing of the cutter like GBritnell built. If you want to send me the specs on your valve and guide, I'll make a detail of a cutter for your particular engine and post it for you. ----Brian



Thanks Brian. The cutter you drew up will work on my build. The valves are the same size. It seems both engines are very similar in certain areas. Snap a few shots of how you sharpen it up. Since it will be cutting a very small seat in soft brass, and twisted with light hand preasure, it probably doesn't even need to be heat treated, but correct me if I'm wrong.

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

MB Probably it doesn't have to be heat treated.---Tell ya what though---If my cutter will work for you, I will send it to you after I make it and try it myself. I bought drill rod to make it out of, so that I could harden it.


----------



## jpeter

I don't notice any relief ground into that cutter. Is it not needed?


----------



## gbritnell

Brian,
You beat me to it but it looks great. The only thing I might change is to leave the shank above the pilot full length for extra rigidity. Here's the PDF that I was working on prior to reading your post.
George 

View attachment VALVE SEAT CUTTER INSTRUCTIONS.pdf


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> MB Probably it doesn't have to be heat treated.---Tell ya what though---If my cutter will work for you, I will send it to you after I make it and try it myself. I bought drill rod to make it out of, so that I could harden it.



Thanks Brian that's a very generous offer! However, I respectfully decline. Keep yours for future projects or study. I can see the need to learn,and should make my own to see how its done. I'll probably need to make other cutters like it in the future.

Thanks again Brian! 

George's shop is only 10 minutes away, I could always borrow his, he wouldn't mind. ;D

-MB


----------



## Metal Butcher

gbritnell  said:
			
		

> Brian,
> You beat me to it but it looks great. The only thing I might change is to leave the shank above the pilot full length for extra rigidity. Here's the PDF that I was working on prior to reading your post.
> George



Thanks George! The pdf is very helpful, and explains how to make the relief, "Tilt on 45* rotate 15*.

The only thing I need to over come is the "tilt on 45*".

My Spin-dex clone is horizontal only.

Maybe I can use a tilted square collet block..hmm.

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks George---On the PDF I'm good up to the "tilt on 45 degrees, rotate 15 degrees", to put relief on the cutter. I can't even begin to imagime what you are doing there. My part will be held horizontally in a 3 jaw chuck mounted to my rotary table to mill the four pockets What do I tilt? how do I tilt it? What possible combination of machinery can you use to do that??---and finally, can I just do it with a needle file?---Brian


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Brian,

 I have a small dividing head that is capable of rotating about the y axis but a 5c collet block could also be used. 

 The relief behind the cutting edge can most definitely be filed. On smaller cutters I do it all the time. When the cutter gets a little bigger I back of the clearance with the mill. It saves a lot of filing. 

 The reason for the tilt is to bring the 45 degree surface up to horizontal. The piece is then rotated anywhere between 5-15 degrees to mill the relief behind the cutting edge.

 The most important part in making this tool is that the cutting edges all be exactly the same. That is why I use a headband magnifier. After the part is hardened it will be a dark blue/black color. You can clearly see when you are honing clearance on the land as it approaches the cutting edge. 

George


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Well, there certainly wasn't much to that. ---and I machined it all with HSS tooling. The material is drill rod. I filed the relief behind the cutting faces with a jewellers file before hardening.!!!


----------



## kcmillin

Well Done Brian, See there is nothing to it.

Does your camera have a "Macro" function? It should be an Icon that looks like a flower. Use the macro without zoom for best results. 

Kel


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Well Boys---this ones going up on the shelf. I have failed miserably, and at this point in time I simply don't know why. I built the valve seat cutter and used it, and it worked well. Before using it, I coated the face of the valve cages in the seat area with layout die, and it was quite plain that when I used the valve seat cutter I was removing new metal and getting a good shiny seat. Both valves were lapped again, and finally the engine was reassembled. It didn't make any difference at all to the compression--AT ALL!!!! I have spent far to much time and energy on what should have been a smple engine to get running, its starting to make me lose sleep at night, and good wife is beginning to ask if I live in the house or down in the workshop. This has been a great run. and its a rather bitter pill to swallow. Maybe in February I'll come back to it with a new fresh outlook, but for now, I'm whipped!!!-----Brian


----------



## jpeter

Been there. I feel your pain. Find a way to put the valve unit, (head, block, valve body, etc.) under pressure, blown from the mouth with a tube, while under water and look for bubbles. Its a good way to prove out your valve work. 

My buddy can hear valve leaks when blowing on them. I'm too deaf.

Maybe it's not the valves.


----------



## dvbydt

Brian,

You've got us all hanging on the edge of our seats hoping you are going to solve this one. I am surprised that none of the builders here hav'nt been in your position and can offer a solution. How about putting stronger springs on the valves and seeing if this gives you compression? 

Ian


----------



## lathe nut

Brian, I have been one of the almost 20,000 who have looked at the start of the project and won't see the finish, you cannot do that to us, take some time to cool off, leave it on the bench and it will come to you in the middle of the night what is wrong and bingo it will be running, I for one would love to build one someday but know that if a fellow like you has problems I would not have a chance, I have really enjoyed this post and will hope that you get it soon, not knowing will kill us all, again, thanks for what you have done and looking forward to noise of victory, Lathe Nut


----------



## ozzie46

Brian, I'm sorry it didn't work out right now.
But I know when you start chasing your tail it is time to take a breather and regroup.

Put it away for a while and come back to it. Start fresh after a rest and it will most likely be easy to figure out. 

  Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I have to take a break for a while, because the project is beginning to eat me. I know whats wrong. The valves aren't sealing. Thats it--totally. And right now, with the state of my machining ability and the state of my old Chinese lathe, I don't seem to be able to make them seal. I have remade the valves, I have made valve cages, I have made a tool to ream the valve seats "in place"---and all to no avail. I am sure that if I could get the valves to seal and give me that elusive compression I have sought and felt "sometimes" that the engine would run like stink!!! My lathe has concentricity issues between the centerline of the tailstock and the centerline of the chuck. It doesn't seem to be a direct linear offset, as much as an angular offset, and the farther out I get from the tailstock, the more pronounced these issues become. This I'm sure has been the major factor in why I'm having these problems. This engine is one of the "prettiest" engines I have built, and one I would really like to see finished and running. I'm out of options right now. If I had a friend in the area who was a better machinist/innovator than I am, I would seek them out and ask for help, but I'm the biggest toad in the puddle around here when it comes to model engines so I don't have anyone to go to for help. I need a John Bogstandard or a Cedge living next door or down the street, so I could drop by for a pep talk and some hands on help. I have never absolutely "failed" at anything technical in 64 years, so you have to realize my frustration right now. I need a break, a breath of fresh air, and time to come up with a better game plan. I do have a friend in town with a Sherline-----


----------



## rleete

Take a break, let it sit, and maybe something will come to you. There's no time limit here, and if it's making you frustrated, it sucks all the fun out of it. It doesn't hurt to set it aside for a while.

You've got the whole forum waiting for that final post of the video of it running. I wish I could offer some constructive help, but I have yet to try an IC. You'll get it eventually, and we'll all be here to cheer when you do.


----------



## lee9966

Brian - what steps have you taken to analyze the problem? 

Can you verify the valves are closing all the way when all is assembled? Are the springs really pulling them closed?

If there is no compression at all you should be able to hear where the leak is. Listen at each port while cranking. You can use tubing like a stethoscope to localize where you are listening. Note: plugging the tubing tight into your ear and sealing the other end to the exhaust port is not suggested. Not at all. Not even a teeny bit. 


Lee


----------



## tel

> In those days, the valve grinding compound came in a container that had dual tops to it. One side had semi-coarse grinding compound, and the other side had fine compound, and you started with the coarse and finished with the fine.



Yep, I have a (closely guarded) very old tin of it as well, but toothpaste will work, and for ultra-fine try Moty Paste.


----------



## Lakc

Brian, we all wished you better luck then this. Your probably not much worse off by putting it away for a few days at least. If your anything like me, you will have a revelation while trying not to think about it. :big: Its not a bad thing really, just sometimes, things wont cooperate with your timetable.


----------



## metalmad

Hi Brian 
on the note of your lathe tailstock.
Have u made a test bar to run between centers,with two identical raised areas ,say 8 inchs apart 
so u can test tailstock alignment with a DI?
once u get it right its easy to check next time too 
u will not believe what I use for my valves
auto cut and polish lol.
PS dont give up mate, u will get it ( I bet its something really simple )


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Like the rest of the Guy's, I feel your pain. 

Take a break, it will come to you when you least expect it and I don't know of any deadlines in the hobby world.

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Tumbletown

Brian
I'd like to tell you you are not on your own. I built a Ridders 2 stroke engine recently - I think to a pretty high standard. It did EXACTLY what yours did. It popped and banged under the starter and once ran for about 20 secs on its own, never to be repeated. I made a new piston and intake valve to follow up compression. I've had the timing advanced and retarded. I made two ignition systems and have run it lean and rich and all shades and combinations in between. After tearing my hair out and following some backfires and scoring the crankshaft under the flywheel, I have decided to place this creation in a plastic bag and place it in a drawer for projects that need re-visiting! A break will do me good. As a sucker for punishment I've decided to build a Webster and will revisit the Ridders if and when my Webster bursts into life. Please take heart. Your posts on this forum are interesting and informative and I'm sure everyone following your progress feels for you. Take a well-earned break and have a brilliant Christmas
Regards from the other side of the pond
Adrian


----------



## Ken I

When I have compression problems on full sized car engines - I have a range of old spark plug bodies with airline quick couplers silver soldered in.

Drive the cylinder to TDC and apply 100 psi via the spark plug fitting and listen to where it is leaking out.

Pretty straightforward.

Regards,
       Ken


----------



## NickG

Submerge it in water and you'll see where the bubbles are coming from.

I think you're best starting with no valve seat - a sharp, square edge then lap a little until you've got a shiny ring all the way around - like a poppet valve.

You made working valves for webster, what's changed? As bob said though, there are no deadlines in this hobby. I had a similar situation with my Ridders flame gulper but got there eventually.

Nick


----------



## cfellows

Brian, I've done the same thing with my 2 cylinder open column IC engine. I'm still not happy with the compression, so I've set it back on the shelf and moved on to other things. I'll get back to it one of these days.

Don't let this setback keep you from other projects. Try making a new tool next or maybe another steam engine design. Tons of things to make out there.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Chuck---I'm down but I'm not out!!! I need a break from the engine, and I need a way to test valves and valve cages BEFORE they get installed on an engine. This will be a nice "side project". Can you tell from the drawing what I am doing??----Brian






View attachment ASSY-VALVE CAGE TESTER.PDF


----------



## doc1955

I know you may have already checked this but are you sure it's the valves that are leaking? It does not take a huge leak to lose compression. I know from my 6 cycle engine I built I couldn't get it to run very well turned out that even though I thought I had the spark plug threads and seat good I had a leak. I placed a soft copper ring under plug and wouldn't you know ran like a champ. 
It's just a thought and like I said you may have already addressed that.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Doc---That engines as airtight as a ducks behind.


----------



## Admiral_dk

Just a thought ....

If the diameter of the venturi in your carburetor is too big, you might get at a pop or a few on a port prime, but the engine will never run continuously .... simply because there's not enough vacuum to suck fuel from the tank.

Have a look at : http://modelenginenews.org/ , click on "Editorial Index" and choose the October 2010 issue, go down to "Sparey ".8" Inlet Woes".

I really hope that you solve the problem soon.


----------



## Maryak

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Doc---That engines as airtight as a ducks behind.



What a great way to say watertight. :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## tel

;D 'round this way we say 'tight as a fish's a**e'

Thinking over your woes tho tho Brian, I have got to wondering whether your changing the points set up to the 'other' side, where it is working on a 360° cycle, rather than a 720° has something to do with your problem.


----------



## dsquire

Brian

This may sound like a dumb question but since you have no compression there is a slight possibility that it might not be a dumb question. 

How much clearance do you have in the valve train? If there is no clearance between the valve/lifter/cam lobe, then the valve may not have room to close which would mean no compression. The more you try to lap the valve seat the worse the problem would become if you didn't adjust the valve lash.

When all else fails sometimes you just have to ask all the questions not just the obvious ones. Hope that you get it running soon. :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


----------



## jpeter

I know lots of builders use valve cages but I don't. I'm concerned cages can leak if not properly fit. I think there's not a lot of metal between the combustion chamber and the exhaust and intake passage to seal the cage. It wouldn't be unheard of to have a leak there.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks guys---I do have clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem, and I'm not the least bit concerned about valve cages. The points work fine the way I have them as witnessed by how well the webster runs. This is purely and simply a fitment issue of valves to valve seats. I will probably build new cages and re-use my current valves, but they are not going back into the engine untill I have performed some kind of "Out of engine test" for an airtight seal.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I am toying with the idea of something like this "cut away" view, which shows the valve and valve cage assembly complete with spring and keeper, inserted into a brass fixture with an o-ring seal in the bottom of it. The valve cage would have a 1/16" hole drilled thru the side, where the main port hole will eventually get drilled. If I could then intoduce pressurized air into the open end of the brass fixture, I could hold the end with the 1/16" valve port submerged in a glass of water to do a "bubble check" to see if the valve was sealing or not. If one could ensure that the seal was 100% or close to it, then the cage could be loctited into the cylinder head with heat resistant Loctite. i wouldn't press fit the cage---the walls are very thin brass, and won't take much "pressing" without deforming.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I've got it!!! A Eureka moment!! I am going to make new brass valve cages and try to get away with re-using my current valves. I am going to make "stepped" valve cages with two outside diameters (well 3 actually if you count the small register that sticks up above the top of the cylinder to center the compression spring). I will drill a 1/16" dia hole thru the side of the cage, (which will be "dissapeared" when I drill the full sized port hole after final assembly. I can slide a peice of rubber tubing over the valve and put 20 or 30 pounds of air pressure on it, and submerge it in a glass of water to check for bubbles escaping out the 1/16" hole. Once I achieve an air tight seal, the cage will be loctited into a stepped hole prepared for it in the existing cylinder head. The face of the cage sets flush with the inside surface of the cylinder head and the "step" keeps it from blowing out under compression. The existing hole through the cyl head is 0.25" the stepped hole diameter will be 11/32" dia. the valve head is 0.25" o.d. and the hole inside the cage is 0.203" dia.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Like this----


----------



## jpeter

Sounds to me like overkill. Like I posted earlier, building new parts without ever testing the old ones is a tough road to go. 
Speaking of overkill, for one thing all the pressure you need can be blown with your mouth. find a way to seal an 1/8 inch brass tube in the sparkplug hole. Add to it a couple of feet of model airplane engine gas line or similiar tubing and blow on the tube while the engine is dunked in water. Look for bubbles. The leak might be a valve, valve cage, head gasket, or just maybe rings if there are any. For valves my rule of thumb is 1 bubble every 4 or 5 seconds is maximum leakage.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I managed to steal an hour this evening and make my "stepped" valve cages. I used my new handy dandy home made valve seat cutting tool to put a VERY small 45 degree chamfer where the valve seats. I would estimate it to be .010 to .015 deep, but I have no real way of measuring it---I just know its very small. and yes, Jpeter--I have conducted all of the tests you are advising---MANY times. They are documented somewhere in the 37 pages of build notes that precede this one.


----------



## jpeter

Sorry to sound so pushy but much like you I was getting frustrated. Did you find the leak? From where were the bubbles coming?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Now what???? I'm snookered!!! I built the new "stepped" valve cages as accurate as I am capable of doing. I used my "hand made valve seat cutting tool" to cut a very small 45 degree seat. I used the new valves I made from drill rod and as per Bogstandards advice I cut the valves at approximately 1 to 2 degrees less included angle so that it would have a theoretical "line contact" where the edge of the valve closest to the head contacts the seat. I lapped the valves to the seats with valve grinding compound ---and they still leak!!! They don't leak an outrageous amount, but they still aren't "air-tight". I bought some clear plastic line and built a test rig like the one I modelled in the previous post, and submerged the valve in a glass of water--thats what you see in the picture. I blew in the tube untill I was dizzy----I "twiddled" the exposed end of the valve with my finger while blowing.---they bubbled. I made an adapter up and put a regulated air compressor line on the other end of the tube, thinking that perhaps higher air pressure would push the head of the valve against the seat for a better seal.---It just bubbled more. I haven't modified the cylinder head yet to accept the stepped valve cages---I don't see any point in doing so unless I can get the valves to stop leaking BEFORE I install the new cages. I am at a complete loss as to what to do next.----Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I used the permatex stuff. Don't know where to get anything else. All the automotive stores around here only seem to carry the Permatex 474G and nothing else.


----------



## jonesie

brian if you can not find any extra fine clover lapping compound to you know anyone that does mold work. maybe you can find someone that has some diamond paste , that is used for polishing. you could even use some silver polish or brasso as they are both fine.i think you lapping compound is to coarse. good luck jonesie


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I was able to borrow a small baggie of 320 grit and of 600 grit lapping grease from my local machine shop. I am currently relapping each valve /valvecage combination with first 320, then 600, then toothpaste.


----------



## deere_x475guy

Good luck Brian, I know you will get this running... :bow:


----------



## stevehuckss396

I hope this works for you. As hard as you have worked on this you certainly deserve a break.


----------



## rleete

I thought you were taking some time off with this one?


----------



## ozzie46

Good luck Brian. I've got my fingers crossed.

  Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm very pleased to announce that the lapping with 320,600, and toothpaste seems to have worked miracles. Both valves seem to be absolutely airtight (by lungpower at least) when performing the same bubble test that I did earlier today. My god, what a difference in the "grit" feeling between even the 320 lapping compound and the Permatex junk. The Permatex feels like it has granite boulders in it by comparison. I have to drill and ream the relief in the cylinder head for my stepped valve cages and loctite them in now, and lets keep out fingers crossed.----Brian


----------



## rleete

It's all over but the shouting, then. Nice to hear you've worked it out.


----------



## ozzie46

Go get um Brian. You're hot on the trail now! woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1

 Ron


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The cages are loctited into place. Tomorrow, the fat lady may sing!!! I coated the seat area with layout dye so that tomorrow before reassembly, I can try the valves one last time and make sure there was no distortion in the cages when they went into place. The cylinder head is setting under a 60 watt bulb on the end of my mill where there is nothing to catch fire, and I will leave it that way overnight.


----------



## kjk

I'm getting out the scotch - the good stuff.


----------



## Peter.

Woodguy  said:
			
		

> I'm getting out the scotch - the good stuff.



Green, purple or grey? Oh sorry - that's scotchbrite 

Fingers crossed Brian, I'm sure it'll be making those sweet sounds tomorrow!


----------



## deere_x475guy

I rarely drink any alcohol but will do a glass of cheap wine from time to time...get it running Brian .


----------



## bronson

I'am glad to hear the good news best of luck tomorrow, can't wait to see the video of it running.


----------



## lee9966

Congratulations Brian, this is looking good!

Lee


----------



## metalmad

Will be tuning in again tomorrow rain or shine for more updates
great work
Pete


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Great news, I'm off to buy another tube of toothpaste ;D

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## tel

YEE HAW!


----------



## NickG

Well done Brian good luck :bow:


----------



## steamer

Give em hell Brian! We're a rootin!


Dave


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Its been a long time coming!!! Here it is on its maiden voyage, running my home built carburetor and my hoMe build sparkplug. I haven't hooked up the Kerzel lever to get it into hit and miss mode yet, and I still have a lot of finessing to do, but IT LIVES!!!!


----------



## GailInNM

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A

My oh my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine heading my way
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A


----------



## crankshafter

Hey hey Brian.
At least alive. Nice runing engine. th_wav th_wav.
Have been following your struggle with the valve/cages. You deserve all the credit from all here at HMEM. now its the hit and miss-mode we waiting for woohoo1. Thank you for your informative whrigt-ups.
best
Crankshafter.


----------



## kcmillin

Congratulations Brian!!!

Perseverance is everything, and you nailed it. 

Well Done Thm:

Kel


----------



## cfellows

Runs nice Brian. Will run even better once it gets broken in a bit. Great job. Makes me want to get back to work on my vertical twin.

Chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

vpt said:
			
		

> NICE! Glad to finally see a video! Sounds very quiet and looks smooth. Is i supposed to spin that fast though?


Like I said----That was its maiden run, after a month of trouble with non seating valves. Yes, it should and will run a lot slower, especially after the hit and miss lever is added and engaged. This is the first time ever that I have consistently been able to spin the flywheels by hand and have them bounce back when the piston encounters a wall of compression. I didn't let it run long, as I don't have an oiler on the cylinder, and I was running straight Naptha gas with no oil mxed in to lubricate the cylinder walls. I didn't have any cooling water in the reservoir either, and at that speed it was getting warm pretty fast. My biggest challenge has been to get it to run at all. Now that it will at least run on its own, I can start all the tweaking that is required to make a slow consistent hit and miss engine.


----------



## kjk

Way to go Brian. Looking forward to hearing it hit and miss.


----------



## jpeter

Congrats.

Watch running it without oil. I mix 2 stroke oil, 20 to 1 with naptha. It works well. I add 1 oz to a 20 oz pop bottle full. Try it.


----------



## Jack B

Hi Brian: Absolutely spectacular. You brought out one of the nicest things about this site and that is everyone is a friend who wants to help. I am so happy you got it cooking. Congratulations!!!! 
I am about to try to start my Hit or Miss IC which will be a first time for me . I am not sure about the ignition system. Could you post a picture of yours?     Jack B


----------



## rleete

Sounds very smooth. We all knew you'd get it going, it was only a matter of time. Congrats.


----------



## tel

Thm: Thm: Thm:

Short, but sweet!

*ONYA BRIAN!!!*


----------



## Maryak

tel  said:
			
		

> Thm: Thm: Thm:
> 
> Short, but sweet!
> 
> *ONYA BRIAN!!!*



I couldn't say it any better. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## rudydubya

Great job, Brian.  :bow: :bow: :bow:  Looking forward to the hit-and-miss mode.

Regards,
Rudy


----------



## arnoldb

Well done Brian ! Thm: Thm: Thm:


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Congrats Brian!
Nice looking and I enjoyed the video.
I'm enjoying the trip.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The more the engine runs, the better it runs. I must say that the "throttle" I built into the carburetor doesn't seem to do bugger all. It doesn't make much difference to the engine RPM untill its just about fully closed, then the engine just dies suddenly. Having never built a carburetor before, I'm not really sure what to expect, but the engine seems to want to run awfull damn fast. I have to do a little adding to the Kerzel lever ledge, because right now even though the weights are flying out under centrifugal force and the arm is moving into place like its supposed to, the exhaust valve is still closing enough for the engine to fire, and since the throttle seems to be rather useless for slowing it down, the engine wants to run away with itself. Probably once I get the arm adjusted correctly, the wide open throttle will be a good thing. I foresee a very delicate balance between engine RPM and return spring tension on the counterweights.


----------



## ozzie46

Fantastic Brian!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: 

Your perseverance in this build has paid off well. Whats next?

 Now you can sleep better. :big: :big:


----------



## kvom

Nice runner! I like the sounds. :bow:


----------



## gbritnell

Congratulations Brian,
It was a long hard fought battle but your perseverance paid off. The amount of information that was shared during the build helped everyone here. 
Now for the carburetor. It's surprising how little air and thus fuel a small engine requires. The venturi in the 'Tiny' engine is minuscule but it still runs quite fast. Part of the reason your engine dies when the throttle is closed is because the mixture is not right for the amount of air the engine is using. A hit and miss engine has a fixed venturi and therefore a preset needle valve for the operating rpm of the engine. The engine doesn't or shouldn't vary much from 'missing' to operating under load so if the rpm changes a little the carburetor doesn't need to be readjusted. To use a throttling carburetor you need an air bleed type. This will allow for 2 different air/fuel mixtures, one at high speed and one at idle. When you get your engine into the hit and miss configuration having a throttling carb won't be necessary. 
George


----------



## steamer

From my full size hit and miss experience, I second George's comments ....and another "ONYA" from me! ;D

Good Job Brian!

Dave


----------



## putputman

Congratulations Brian!!!!!!!!!!! The engine runs great and sounds nice. When you get the governor working properly, your carburetor will be just fine as is.

It can get to be quite a challenge getting the proper springs for the governor. If you make your own you'll be home free. 

I don't know if you have those junk stores that sell all that Chinese stuff in your area, but if you do, most of them sell bags of assorted springs for cheap. I buys some every chance I get and have used them on most of my engines.


----------



## kjk

Brian - if you have a princess auto near by - they sell a big bag of springs for $3.99.


----------



## metalmad

great news Brian 
its a good day   ;D


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks George. I kind of figured that there was no need for a throttled carb on a hit and miss, but you know how it is---I had to build a carb anyways, so I thought it would be a good learning experience. I have never had an engine fight me every step of the way like this one did. Its such a pretty engine too----hopefully I can get the hit and miss lever adjusted so that everything runs at a slower gallop. I notice that the Kerzel built by the fellow in New Zealand (I posted a link to his video ) seems to run at a pretty fast clip also.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3VkGFDSSgo[/ame]


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Jack B  said:
			
		

> Hi Brian: Absolutely spectacular. You brought out one of the nicest things about this site and that is everyone is a friend who wants to help. I am so happy you got it cooking. Congratulations!!!!
> I am about to try to start my Hit or Miss IC which will be a first time for me . I am not sure about the ignition system. Could you post a picture of yours?     Jack B



Jack---The points and condenser are out of a Chrysler product---if you are brave enough to wade through all 40 pages, there is a picture of them on the engine as well as the part numbers for them at your local auto store. The coil is a general purpose 12 volt automobile coil. What else do you want to know?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Pat J  said:
			
		

> I gotta built one of those.
> 
> Pat J


Pat---they are not a difficult engine to build. Just Hell to get the valves sealing properly!!! ;D ;D ;D


----------



## awJCKDup

CONGRATULATIONS !!!  Brian  I've followed this build from the begining, and have enjoyed it, I'm sorry you had to go thru such and ordeal getting it running, but you handled the hardship well. I want to say that the help from everyone shows how friendly and helpfull this forum is. Glad you saw it thru to the end
John


----------



## bearcar1

BRAVO! Brian, indeed BRAVO!

BC1
Jim


----------



## Jack B

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Jack---The points and condenser are out of a Chrysler product---if you are brave enough to wade through all 40 pages, there is a picture of them on the engine as well as the part numbers for them at your local auto store. The coil is a general purpose 12 volt automobile coil. What else do you want to know?


Hi Brian: I have Model A Points, 6 Volt Coil and matching Condenser but I don't know what to use for a battery.  Jack B


----------



## Metal Butcher

Hey Brian, Congradulations! :bow:

Glad to see and hear your running engine! Sounds real good to! I had all the confidence in the world that you would solve the valve problem and get 'er to go. I bet your feeling real good, and you should be. I know that feeling, and theirs nothing like it.

-MB


----------



## Troutsqueezer

Very nice job Brian and thanks for all the documenting. I am about to get back to my Upshur build and will be referencing these pages often, as well as MB's.


----------



## bronson

Glad to see your got it running, and all the helpful hints that everyone gave. Great site.


----------



## metalmad

Hi brian
that thing is just lovely
its a inspiration
Pete


----------



## NickG

Not only is this thread a great help to anybody considering building an i.c. engine but a great lesson in perseverance, well done Brian - absolutely brilliant, I knew you couldn't give up on it. Looking forward to fine tuning but from that other guy's clip it looks like all you need do is hook up the governor!
 :bow:
Nick


----------



## SBWHART

Well done Brian you sure tamed the beast, a hit and miss is on my todo list and this thread will show me the way thanks for posting.

Stew


----------



## swilliams

Great to see you get this running Brian, congratulations.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Last night before I went to bed, I filled the water reservoir with water, right to the top. This morning its still full right to the top and no puddles anywhere.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Jack B  said:
			
		

> Hi Brian: I have Model A Points, 6 Volt Coil and matching Condenser but I don't know what to use for a battery.  Jack B


Either buy a 6 volt battery or update the coil to 12 volts. The points will handle either 6 or 12 volts.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

jpeter  said:
			
		

> Congrats.
> 
> Watch running it without oil. I mix 2 stroke oil, 20 to 1 with naptha. It works well. I add 1 oz to a 20 oz pop bottle full. Try it.


Thanks JPeter---I needed that information. I was going to use WD40 as my additive, but they only sell it in one gallon cans here, and it costs about 40$ for a gallon of the stuff.----Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm getting good long runs now. I used Jpeters recipe for mixed gas, and the water reservoir is full to help with cooling. I have discovered that this engine wants a lot of advance on the ignition. It will run slower with a retarded ignition, but periodically will stop for no reason. wITH THE SPARK ADVANCED, IT RUNS AT A FASTER CLIP, BUT IF THERE IS A BIT OF HESITATION, IT HAS ENOUGH MOMENTUM TO CARRY IT THROUGH TO THE NEXT POWER STROKE, SO DOESN'T STALL. dAMN I HATE CAPS LOCK!!! Thats what happens when you don't learn to type untill you're 51---I have to watch the keyboard while I type, and if I indavertantly turn caps-lock on, I don't know untill I eventually look up at the monitor.


----------



## dvbydt

Congratulations Brian! I go away for the weekend and miss all the action. Perseverance wins them all!

Ian


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> dAMN I HATE CAPS LOCK!!! Thats what happens when you don't learn to type untill you're 51---I have to watch the keyboard while I type, and if I indavertantly turn caps-lock on, I don't know untill I eventually look up at the monitor.



Brain, glad to see your fine tuning is giving positive results. 

On the subject of the 'caps' button, I bump the 'caps lock' button my self on occasion. What I do is put the cursor in front of the first word and re-type it, then I use the delete button to remove the offending word. One word at a time helps me to eliminate the possibility of my feeble mind forgetting what I just typed. ;D

Edit; I just came up with a brilliant solution to the offensive 'caps lock' button. We all have the right tool, a screw driver! Just jam it under the button, pry the sucker up, and toss it in the can. Ahhh... the power of the active mind. Is that worth a Karma point?

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

MetalButcher---Your solution to Caps lock is TEFC----Totally effective/fantastically crude.----Tel---Here's a little hint for you---You will notice that my engine revolves in reverse to that of the chap from New zealand. Nothing to do with Corriolis effect.--Its just that the stubshaft that the cam gear rides on is held in place by a threaded fastener--with right hand threads.---And when the engine rotates in reverse to what I have, the damned stub arbor unscrews itself and the gears fall off in a heap.---Brian


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## mklotz

Virtually any text editor worth its salt has a case inversion function.

i TYPED THIS IN LOWER CASE, HIGHLIGHTED IT AND CASE INVERTED IT.

If you're typing a long reply, it's wise to do it an editor exterior to the reply function in the forum - far less chance of inadvertently losing what you've written.

I use DocPad but there are loads of free editors out there in cyber land.

Of course, the best thing is to learn to touch type properly and watch the screen. You'll be amazed how many mistakes you'll catch that way.


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## mh121

Congratulations on getting it running and looking so well, it makes all the heartache worthwhile in the end.

Cheers,
MartinH


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## fcheslop

Congratulations Brian and thank you for posting in detail as its on my to build list and the info you have posted will be a great help
best wishes Frazer


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## NickG

Brian, well done, you must be so pleased. :bow: It's running superbly there, doesn't sound like anything would stop it! Can't wait to see it miss now...

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

Since the throttle I had built into the carburetor didn't seem to have any positive effect on the way the engine ran, I decided that it was just an impediment to good airflow, so I removed it and made up a pair of brass plugs which I loctited into the sides of the carburetor body. Jury is still out on the net effect of this, but there are only really 3 things to be adjusted which influence the way this engine runs, now that the compression is good. ---Ignition timing, valve timing, and needle valve setting. By removing the throttle, I have eliminated a couple of places where the carb might have been sucking air around the throttle shaft.


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## rleete

Good, sound scientific method. Remove the possible sources of error or randomness.

Have you gotten it to miss yet?


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## maskell

Brian, A lot of engines that were hit and miss just had a needle valve and it was mostly only the throttle (or volume) governed engines that had a butterfly, I reckon your on the right track with only a needle on a hit and miss emgine.

Thanks Lance


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## Brian Rupnow

I have tamed the beast to the point where it will start and run fairly consistently---with Fairly being the key word here. I have had a few other far more experienced model engineers volunteer to me that the engine should run perfectly and consistently and start with a simple flick of the flywheels before even attempting to run it in hit and miss mode. Obviously, they are unaware of how I use my electric drill to crank the living snot out of it untill it starts to fire and run on its own!!! Now I am quite thrilled that it runs at all, and the issue at hand is that there are only 3 possible adjustments which can be made on the thing.---Ignition timing, valve timing, and screw the carburetor needle valve in or out. There seems to be a VERY narrow band of rotational deviation on the carb needle valve after which the engine just pukes and dies. It wants to run at a fairly low speed, which may not be fast enough to make the centrifugal weights fly out and do their thing---I'm not sure. The only way for me is to really be able to play with it repeatedly for the next week untill I decide what the optimum settings are and then go from there.


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## NickG

Brian - when I used to mess about with stationery engines, I can't remember those ever running perfectly or consistently! I know Gail spent a lot of time on his tiny fine tuning it so you may be able get some pointers there. he changed jet sizes and tapers of needles etc a lot. I remember him saying that too rich to too lean was a minute amount on the needle but he managed to make it less sensitive.

Keep fiddling, you'll improve matters.

Nick


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## jpeter

Common carburetors used on hit and miss engines require the needle to be set for the desired rpm. Carburetors designed to be used on throttlable engines are more complex and include some method to lean the mixture when throttling down. Some use and air bleed system which diverts some of the vacuum on idle or slow speed; others move the needle valve in and out with the throttle. Anyway, a hit and miss only needs to be adjusted for one rpm setting. I'm sure you know all this but just in case you haven't experienced a throttle type carb...


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## Maryak

Brian,

The only way I know to make a needle valve more sensitive is for the needle to fit into a matching taper in the valve body, not just throttle on the edge of a "normal" hole. Much easier to say than to do.  Any way I thought it was worth mentioning as the general comment seems to be that without the sophistication of air bleeds, multiple jets etc, there's a fine line between go and no go. This may broaden the line somewhat.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow

Today I made a much longer more tapered needle valve and installed it in the carb. Surprisingly enough, it didn't seem to make any real difference. The carb has a VERY short distance form the air inlet to the needle valve and gas distribution tube, so I thought perhaps turbulence in the air stream might account for some of the fluctuation in engine speeds as it sets there running---I added an extension modelled after the old "velocity stacks" I had on my 1969 skidoo engine---made no difference. (Didn't see that blob of loctite on the side of the carb untill after I took the picture.)


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## Brian Rupnow

Looking for a bit of guidance here from someone with personal experience with these very basic, simple carburetors---Needle valve only, no throttle. I am still "tweaking" my engine, trying to find its "sweet spot" so that I can carry on with getting it into hit and miss mode. Prior to this evening, I have played with the ignition timing, and with settings on the needle valve. the engine would run, and run continuously, but not at a high RPM and would frequently "stumble" as it ran, sometimes just running down and stopping for no particular reason. It would easily restart, but it didn't seem to operate consistently. This evening, having exhausted all of the possible settings on ignition timing and needle valve settings, I thought perhaps I would play a bit with the only adjustment left---the valve timing. I loosened off the setscrews which hold the small gear to the crankshaft, and turned it perhaps 5 degrees in the opposite direction to what the crankshaft normally turns. I THINK that slightly retards the valve timing. (Correct me if I have that backwards). Anyways, the engine now races like a banshee, enough to be somewhat frightening, and the more I close the needle valve, the faster it wants to go---which gets really scary with all those open bits whizzing around. Now as much as I think that may be what I want for hit and miss mode to operate succesfully, I don't fully understand exactly whats happening here. If someone has a logical explanation, I would be very happy to hear it.---Brian


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## kcmillin

Brian, I think that retarding the timing is like putting a "Hot" cam in your car. Since the exhaust valve is opening sooner, there is more time for the hot gas to leave the cylinder. Since it is impossible to overlap the intake and exhaust valves I believe you have it set in the Ideal position for "Hit and Miss" mode.

I think you want the most power you can get for each power stroke, this will keep the flywheel spinning fast, and therefore "Miss" for more revolutions, leaving more space between the power strokes. 

I Think :shrug:

Kel


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## Lakc

It sounds like one of two things. Either the exhaust was becoming compressed slightly by late opening of the valve, or it opened too early wasting part of the power stroke. Either way, she sounds like she wants to run, and thats a good thing. You can always install a restrictor between the needle valve and intake to slow her down, speeding them up is harder. ;D


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## Metal Butcher

Maryak  said:
			
		

> Brian,
> 
> The only way I know to make a needle valve more sensitive is for the needle to fit into a matching taper in the valve body, not just throttle on the edge of a "normal" hole. Much easier to say than to do.  Any way I thought it was worth mentioning as the general comment seems to be that without the sophistication of air bleeds, multiple jets etc, there's a fine line between go and no go. This may broaden the line somewhat.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best Regards
> Bob



Bob, would it work for Brian to make a tapered hole (jet) using a tapered pin reamer, and machine a needle valve with the same taper?

-MB


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## maskell

G day Brian, 
        I dont have much model experience with the model engines but have had a fair bit to do with the full size engines.
It sounds like you are getting close to ideal with the timing and mixture, as the engine leans out they will pick up revs to a point.
The speed is then controlled by adjusting the tension on the governor springs, less tension means lower revs. As the flywheel slows the weight moves in and the engine fires,often by engaging the exhaust valve again, when the engine is going at the desired speed the engine gov weights throw out with centrifugal force and often holds the exhaust valve open so the engine slows until the governor senses it has slowed and engages the valve again and the firing takes it up to governed speed again.
The more the load on the engine the more often it will fire (trying to keep the speed up to the governed speed)
Clear as mud?

Lance


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## NickG

Kel, if he's retarding the cam, turning in oppopsite way to direction of running doesn't that mean the exhaust valve will open later?

If you do that you will also need to change ignition timing to suit presumably. Shame you can't alter the ignition timing whilst the engine is running, like on a car, turn the dizzy until the revs peak etc.


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## gbritnell

Hi Nick,
I depends on what type of trigger you have for your ignition, points or Hall effect. On my version of 'Tiny' I mounted my Hall sensor on a movable arm that pivots around the crankshaft so that I could change my timing. 
gbritnell


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## Generatorgus

Brian, being a rookie and not having anything to ad, I've quietly watched your build from the get go and lost it for a while a couple of weeks ago,just when it was getting exciting. I picked up on it this morning.
Well done!!!! Your stick-to-it-ivness has given me the courage to go back to my shelved, in total frustration, Henry Ford 1/2 scale, my first and only build. It's been there over a year, it did run for a while and quit. I tried everything, new valves, even a cylinder and piston. Now, after your experience, I'm pretty sure it was the valves. I used the same grinding compond, and the seats are way too wide. I'm going to have another go at it.
Once again, well done, and thanks for a such well documented build, even the blunders and booboos. Fascinating. :bow:
GUS


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## Peter.

Brian you could try making a carb with a smaller bore, or at least a smaller 'choke' where the needle valeve is. Could be the airspeed through the carb is too low. Another thing is the inlet valve spring might be holding the valve shut until very late in the stroke giving the valve a very short duration, so try a lighter spring on that too.

By winding the needle in you're leaning the engine out, pushing up exhaust gas temperatures which might be improving the cylinder scavenging thus giving better induction or simply leaning the mixture might be improving induction - lean running engines tend to race when not loaded and bog down under load anyway, but it's all speculation really given the many variables.


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## Brian Rupnow

The spring I have in there now is lighter than a butterflies wing---but I have done a couple of experiments while the engine is running, using a very small screwdriver to lift the bottom of the spring and consequently putting more pressure on the spring. The engine immediately begins to burp and fart---doesn't like that even a little bit. If I go to a lighter spring, the engine isn't going to run because the valve won't close at all.


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## kcmillin

NickG  said:
			
		

> Kel, if he's retarding the cam, turning in oppopsite way to direction of running doesn't that mean the exhaust valve will open later?



Nick, your absolutely right. I retract my former statement. 

Kel


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## 1hand

Brian your a rock star! Just got my Home shop Machinist mag today, and see your Radial build is in there. Thm:

Congrats on your write up!
Matt


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## rudydubya

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Looking for a bit of guidance here from someone with personal experience with these very basic, simple carburetors---Needle valve only, no throttle.


Brian, I'm not really qualified to give guidance, but here are a few pictues of a very basic, simple carburetor. My Upshur runs well with it. No machined venturi or complex jet. The body is just a piece of 1/4" brass rod with a hole suited to your engine size drilled down its length and then a hole through it for the needle valve assembly. The needle valve assembly is two pieces of brass rod, one with a hole down to within about 1/16" of the bottom, then a suitable sized hole for the needle valve seat. The other piece is drilled and tapped for a 2-56 screw needle, which is turned down on one end. Mine is about a 15 degree point. Then everything is soft-soldered together. Easy to make, or I couldn't have made it.

The carburetor body. Yes, the hole down the middle is off center, not by design, it just happened. I did mention that I was a novice, didn't I?




The needle valve and jet.




Finished Carburetor. There's also a spring to keep the needle from vibrating loose, not shown.




And a view down the bore of the finished carburetor.




​Hope this helps.

Rudy


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Rudy---That may be a simple carburetor, but I've seen the video of your engine running in hit and miss mode, and its beautifull!!! Novice???---I don't think so!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

1hand  said:
			
		

> Brian your a rock star! Just got my Home shop Machinist mag today, and see your Radial build is in there. Thm:
> 
> Congrats on your write up!
> Matt



Thanks 1Hand---This is the first I have heard that its been published.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

Now I know why the Kerzel lever had that big ugly end on it----So I could add an adjusting spring like this to the end of it to fine tune the hitting and missing!!!


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## rudydubya

I like your idea of an adjustable spring on the governor arm, Brian. Getting the brass leaf spring adjusted just right on my Upshur was, well, ... hit and miss.  ;D

Rudy


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## Brian Rupnow

The thought was as good as the deed on the kerzel lever spring adjustment add-on. However, I'm not happy with the way this engine runs. Its just not consistent. I have played with the 3 available adjustments, valve timing, ignition timing, and needle valve settings for two weeks now, and although the engine runs, it does not run consistently. The valves are sealing well and I have good compression. When the engine is running, it needs to run at a very high speed so as not to stumble. When I do get it adjusted to a more moderate pace, sometimes it runs as expected, but most of the time it runs for a very short time, then stumbles and quits. It always starts right back up again, but its a gamble as to whether or not it will stay running. I have everything set up fine for the hit and miss cycle, as proven by the bob-weight/lever/valve action when I speed the engine up or down by running it with my variable speed drill, but the engine doesn't run good enough to get into the hit and miss cycle. I know that my points, condenser, and coil are working correctly. The sparkplug I made appears to function correctly---If it didn't, the engine just plain wouldn't run for short or extended periods of time as it does. Valve and ignition timing are something that don't change. Once they are set, they are a constant, and will always give the same results unless a set screw holding the cam position comes loose, and that isn't happening here. The only variable left is this carburetor. It appears to function adequately, but it is the only "black art" peice on the entire engine, where I can't really know whats happening with it. I've seen a number of engines posted on here with the same bore and stroke as my engine that run just beautifully using the simple Upshur carb, which has a 1/8" dia. main air passage and no venturi. My carb has a 1/4" dia. main air passage and does have a venturi. If I assume that all other things are more or less identical engine-wise, then perhaps my engine would do better with the 1/8 bore upshur carb. That carb is not a terribly complex part to make, and I seem to have ran out of other options to get a good consistent runner.





.


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## GailInNM

Brian,
If you haven't been, try filtering your fuel. Coleman fuel used to be notorious for lint in the fuel. On my Tiny, filtering the gasoline improved the consistency of the runs a lot. Of course the needle valve clearance is smaller on mine but the subject has come up with the larger engines also. I am going to build a fuel filter to go in line with the fuel line to the carb from the tank. It's drawn -- I just haven't gotten around to building it yet. 

A cut up section of coffee filter seems to work fine. That's what I use to filter the fuel from bulk to my working bottle. I plan to use 25 micron lab filter paper in the in line filter.

Gail in NM


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## mu38&Bg#

What is the RPM at which it runs well and rpm when it runs poorly? What is the venturi throat diameter? I think you're getting to the source of the issue looking at the size of the carb throat. I wasn't following this thread until today. I just read all of it after bumping into the TB3 revival thread. This thread was great.


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## Brian Rupnow

dieselpilot  said:
			
		

> What is the RPM at which it runs well and rpm when it runs poorly? What is the venturi throat diameter? I think you're getting to the source of the issue looking at the size of the carb throat. I wasn't following this thread until today. I just read all of it after bumping into the TB3 revival thread. This thread was great.


The main bore thru the carb is 1/4". The reduced diameter at the venturi area is 3/16". As for the rpm---I don't know, but click on either of the videos I posted of the engine running and you can get a good feel for the speed its running at.----Brian


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## mu38&Bg#

OK, from the clip I got about 1300 RPM. http://www.tunelab-world.com/rpmsound.html this app was not very good, but it did pick up 1300 when you weren't talking.

At that speed I would like to use a venturi throat of 2mm or smaller. The velocity through the carb is low right now. There isn't much chance of atomization. Fuel is running along the intake tract wall and being drawn into the engine inconsistently. For reference, I use a 4.1mm throat in a .48ci four stroke that runs at 10,000 RPM. And I'm working on a .52ci four stroke engine that runs ~4kRPM and makes 100+W at the shaft with a 1/16" throat. These are OS airplane engines.

Going to a smaller venturi throat will increase the fuel draw and you will find the needle to be more sensitive.


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## tel

Bear in mind tho', Greg, that that 3/16" venturi passage has a 1/8"cross tube running thru it with the delivery orifice (1mm) drilled centrally in the downstream side.


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## mu38&Bg#

Yes, should have asked for area. I do take this into account. In that case 3/16" is equal to area of a 2.3mm hole. I'd still go smaller. It certainly won't inhibit the engines performance. That probably wouldn't happen until area was less 1mm diameter equivalent or .15" bore with the .125" spray bar.

Greg


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## lathe nut

Brain, got The Home Shop Machinist in today and you are in there, congratulations, shame they put the main support on a page split, a bugger to see, thanks again, Lathe Nut


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## Brian Rupnow

Well there, by Golly!!! Other than the fact that I used about 5 times more soft solder than I really wanted to, old Hamilton would be proud of me. What we have here is the 1977 version Upshur engine carb, with a 5/16" thread on it to fit my Kerzel build. My God---Its tiny compared to what I've got on the engine right now. Thats the first time I've used soft solder in about 25 years---amazing how little heat is needed after using silver solder for the last 3 years building engines. Tomorrow I'll see if it improves the Kerzel.


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## jpeter

Congratulations on the HSM article.


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Jpeter. The money from that article is going to buy me a quick change toolpost!!! Here is a video of the engine running on the carb I built yesterday afternnoon.


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## Metal Butcher

Hi Brian, it seems that your engine is running much better and at a slower pace! That simple little carb did the trick!
 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1 woohoo1

-MB


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## Peter.

That seems a whole lot better Brian! THe number of times I've seen teenagers fit bigger carbs to their scooter/ped bikes as a 'tuning mod' only for them not to idle or pick up smoothly, I did suspect low airspeed might be a problem.


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## rudydubya

Looking great, Brian. Can't wait till she's hittin' and missin'.  :bow:

Regards,
Rudy


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## kcmillin

She is running great Brian!!

Smooth as butter, that new carb is working like a champ.

Kel


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## Brian Rupnow

I had one great 15 minute endurance run, then it started breaking down, stumbling, same old, same old. okay---It probably wasn't the carb. when it began to stumble and fart it still had good compression and would start up again without a problem, but only run for a short time. I notice that my home made sparkplug really suffers badly from any flooding. It won't clear itself if it does get flooded and the fuel seems to be leaching up between the corian and the outer metal shield. I think I'm going to order the closest factory made sparkplug and give that a whirl.


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## gbritnell

Brian,
Any spark plug will suffer from flooding. The trick is to get the carb adjusted to where it's not running too rich. When raw gas burns slowly it makes carbon. Carbon is a conductor. When the plug is coated with carbon the spark just follows the easiest path to ground an thus very little or no spark. 
Clean up your plug, start the engine until it's a little warm and then start adjusting the carb towards the lean side until the rpm goes down or it falters and then back it out a minute amount. With that setting it shouldn't be flooding the cylinder.
gbritnell


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## Brian Rupnow

GBritnell---I am slowly going about the process of eliminating any potential cause for my engine not to run as good as many I have seen on this forum. I KNOW that all of the major mechanical components are good, because there are physical tests to verify the facts. My rings and valve seals are good---I have good compression. My bearings are good---it doesn't rattle or pound and its not difficult to turn over. The coil, points, and condenser are good---pull the coil wire and turn the engine over by hand, and when the points open it will crackle out a blue/white spark 1/2" long. I built a second carburetor to try it with yesterday. There was marginal improvement, but not enough to say that all my problems are solved. By changing/replacing components one at a time, I hope to isolate whatever problem there is. I may be a novice machinist, but I am certainly not a novice mechanic. I have read a great deal about the making of home built sparkplugs, and its a fact---they do wick both moisture and fuel up between the corian and the outer shell and will misfire internally--and intermitantly. I have experienced "no fire" conditions enough times now (I have been test running this engine daily for over a week) to suspect the sparkplug. And the meerest hint of suspicion is grounds enough to change or replace the part at this stage of the game.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here's your laugh of the day---I have been doing all my Kerzel testing using the very small gas tank that I have on the Webster engine. A couple of times when it absolutely refused to start, a check of everything found that it had ran out of gas and I was unaware of it. After my great success yesterday with soft solder, and urgently needing a larger fuel tank, I took the fitting I had made to pressure test the cylinder, drilled a hole in the side of the only metal can I had available with a screw on top, and with the addition of a bit of soft solder-- Voila'---instant large fuel tank.


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## rudydubya

Brian, I've been following your discussion with Rick about carburetors over on his build thread. I'm no expert on any sort of engine, but I'm wondering why you're not getting enough vacuum to get fuel into your engine unless you raise the tank. My tank is located below my carburetor, with the very top of the tank itself about 1/4" below the level of the needle valve (picture below). For a cold engine, I usually choke it by putting my finger over the bottom end of the carb and turning the flywheel over once or twice. I can see the fuel in the fuel line rise up to the carb inlet as I do that, and there will be fuel on my finger when I finish. The fuel line stays full while it's running, and will actually stay full for several minutes after I shut the engine off (I assume by capillary action). One other thing I didn't mention is the fuel line I'm using. I got it at the local auto supply store, the guy behind the counter said it was used for weed whacker engines. It's inner diameter is less than 1/8" (actually 3/32" I think, a 3/32" drill bit slip fits nicely), but it stretches enough for a nice tight fit over the 1/8" OD carb inlet. I'm wondering why not more vacuum in the fuel line with that simple carburetor. Looks just like mine.  scratch.gif




​Regards,
Rudy


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## gbritnell

Hi Brian,
I have to echo what Rudy said. Any of these engines should pull enough vacuum to get the fuel to the carb, at least .25 below the needle valve level. Possibly the flooding problem that you're experiencing is because the fuel coming from your can has a 'head' to it and is over feeding the carb. Try making just a simple little container for the time being and put it near the carb. 
gbritnell


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## Peter.

From my days of building RC model aircraft, I recall the optimum height for the fuel tank is such that the fuel is level with the needle when the tank is half full.


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## Brian Rupnow

I did a bit more testing last night. There is a lot of conflicting information available. Many people have been telling me that the tank must be ABOVE the carburetor. My little Upshur style carb will lift fuel about 2" just purely based on venturi effect. It could be that my inconsistent engine running has been a result of the engine flooding out because of the fact that my fuel tank has been above the carburetor. I ordered a new Rimfire sparkplug last night, and once I have it here and a proper adapter made, testing will resume.---Thanks Guys


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> I did a bit more testing last night. There is a lot of conflicting information available. Many people have been telling me that the tank must be ABOVE the carburetor. My little Upshur style carb will lift fuel about 2" just purely based on venturi effect. It could be that my inconsistent engine running has been a result of the engine flooding out because of the fact that my fuel tank has been above the carburetor. I ordered a new Rimfire sparkplug last night, and once I have it here and a proper adapter made, testing will resume.---Thanks Guys



Brian, I'm not sure why anyone would suggest ("conflicting information") that a simple carburetor, like the one used on the Kerzel engine uses should be gravity fed. Maybe their thinking in terms of carburetors that are gravity fed into a fuel bowl. On those once the fuel reaches a certain level a float pushes up on a needle that seats to cut off the addition of any more fuel. With out this 'cut off' the engine is guaranteed to flood and run erratically, and to even shut off do to a shorted (wet or carbon covered) spark plug.

I would set the tank up with its highest possible fuel level (fully filled), a 1/2" below or slightly less (.450"- .500") than the center-line of the needle valve and jet. If the engine won't draw fuel with that level, then you need to make a new carburetor. Raising the fuel level to compensate for a carburetor with a defective draw is not the correct approach to solving the problem.

-MB


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## cfellows

MB is right on. If you put the fuel tank above the carburetor, all the fuel will drain out through the carb.

Chuck


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## Brian Rupnow

My education continues. I am only beginning, after 3 years to know the people who truly know what they are talking about, and be able to seperate them from the people who don't know but still rush to offer up "constructive advice". The trouble with any public forum, is that there are always a number of well intentioned folks, who have no idea if what they are telling you is correct, or if is what they surmise, or what they heard somewhere, but they have never actually lived the experience themselves. These people are not generally deliberately obstructive. but they want so badly to "help" that they offer up whatever comes into their head. And although I have a reasonably good BS detector, there are many times when I truly don't know, and so I am somewhat at the mercy of those who give questionable advise. Of course, this isn't particular to the internet. If I went to a small engine building club in person and asked 25 people for advice, 5 of them would decline to answer because they truly didn't know. 5 would give great advice, based on their own personal experience, 5 would tell me what they heard a friend did", 5 would make something up just because they didn't want to be left out, and 5 would misunderstand the question so badly they would just stand there with a glazed look in there eyes!!! ;D ;D ;D


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## bearcar1

What you say is true Brian, but then of course there are always those that will not listen to good sound advice for whatever reason(s) and go wandering aimlessly into the night much like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, certain that they are correct in there quest and when they find the error of their ways, it is dismissed as folly and the cycle continues on. It is extremely hard for me to merely dismiss anyones suggestions when I do not know how to rectify a problem, sure it gets frustrating at times but to call someone a fool for attempting to help is a true sign of arrogance onto itself. Better to be humble and say "no thank-you" than to assume that someone else doesn't know what they are talking about. Just saying.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

Jim, I've been accused of many things in 64 years, but never of being humble. I've been wrong before, and probably will be again, but I do try not to advise people of things which I know less of than they do.


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## stevehuckss396

Hi Brian.

I set the height of my gas cap at the height of the inlet fitting/needle so that even if I over fill, the fuel level will never be higher than the needle. My tank is 1-1/2 inches deep and the carb will suck it dry. 

I guess what i'm saying is to set the tank as high as you can without the fuel level reaching the level of the needle. 

Works great!!


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## Brian Rupnow

Thanks Steven---Is that a Model A I spy in the background?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Ya never get too old to be kinda dumb!!! I have known for quite a few years now that fluids tend to run down hill. I've known that these small carbs don't have a float bowl, nor a check valve. What was I thinking????----I want a new brain for Christmas!!!!!


----------



## stevehuckss396

Look at it this way Brian. There are thousands of variables when it comes to model engine building. sizes, tolerances, materials, timing and on and on. So you had a brain fart and screwed one up. An easy one to fix at that. Think of all the bad things that could have happened and all you got wrong was something this easy to fix. I would say you have a perfectly fine brain to get you this far. You should be proud of what you have done.

And yes that is a model A


----------



## steamer

....ditto.

Now worries Brian....you need a brain to do what you've done..

And oh by the way...I know a lot of people a damn site smarter than I that couldn't begin to do what you've already done!

Dave


----------



## bearcar1

I wasn't accusing you of being humble. 

BC1
Jim


----------



## gbritnell

Brian, 

 I have been following this thread since day one and have, like others, offered my best advice on building an IC engine. Upon rereading one of your previous posts I see that you edited it and rightly so. In the time that I have been a member I have found that most everyone gives advice from what they have learned, some have just learned more than others. 

 As Steve so succinctly stated, IC engine building involves so much more than steam/air construction, compression, spark, timing, tolerances etc. and to a beginner it can be truly overwhelming. It's easy to throw up one's hands and say I've had enough but to see a project through takes real perseverance. 

 I think you have done a very good job on your first IC build. The information you have learned can now be passed along to someone else starting out. That's how the system is supposed to work. 

 You can chill out now and have a Labatts on me. 
George


----------



## Peter.

Another thing just occurred to me Brian. Traditional castor-based fuel used in model aircraft is quite heavy and oily as a fuel with a good surface tension. It's quite possible to have the fuel level above the needle somewhat and not have it run out though the small needle orifice by gravity alone. I gather that the fuel in your engine is a lot lighter and will flow much more readily through tiny holes. Might explain the conflicting advice you're getting somewhat.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Wouldn't it me wonderfully ironic, if all this inconsistent operation was simply a factor of having the fuel tank setting higher than the carburetor!!! When I get the new sparkplug from Rimfire in, and the fuel tank level corrected, I have high hopes.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm playing the waiting game, waiting for my 1/4-32 Rimfire sparkplug to show up. While I'm waiting, I opened up the sparkplug hole in the cyl head from 5/16-24 to 3/8"-24 and threaded a peice of 3/8" rod I had laying around with a 3/8"-24 die. It screwed together, but for some reason seemed to be an "overly loose" fit. I then hunted around in my box of 10,000 bolts untill I found one with a 3/8"-24 thread which was a much better fit, so I drilled it out in preperation for the 1/4"-32 tap which I ordered with the sparkplug. The bolt is far longer than I need, but I won't trim it to length untill after I have the new sparkplug. Maybe while I wait I will build a proper size and height fuel tank!!!


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I just received the smallest sparkplug I have ever seen, in the mail. This is the Rimfire VR2L from Morrison and Marvin Engineworks in Benton City, Washington. I ordered the 1/4"-32 tap with the sparkplug.


----------



## b.lindsey

I hope that will work better for you Brian. Actually IIRC, they now have some 10-32 threaded ones on the market now as well.

Regards,
Bill


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Well Bruce---Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have installed the sparkplug in the head, and did a little jiggery pokery with my 12 volt coil, and it does fire. I took some advise from Gail in N.M. and tapped the head 3/8"-24 so I can put a larger "factory" plug in if necessary.


----------



## jpeter

Around here you can get those at AutoValue auto parts. ME8's sell for about 15 ea. but you have to order them and wait a day.


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## Brian Rupnow

Well, we're mostly all back together again. We have a new VERY SMALL sparkplug from Rimfire, new bearing oilers, and a new gas tank--LOWER THAN THE NEEDLE VALVE!!!! I reassembled everythng, turned it over by hand---and had NO COMPRESSION! But wait---How can that possibly be??? It had tons of compression a week ago when I took it apart. While I had it all torn down, I decided that now was the time to use that peice of soft copper that some good hearted fellow from USA had sent me to use as a head gasket for the Webster engine I built last year. I hadn't used it, resorting instead to some treated cardboard gasket material. I made a beautifull soft copper gasket for the Kerzel. First thing I did was go upstairs and hijack the wifes Sunlight liquid dish detergent. I drooled a good quantity of it around the join between the cylinder head and the cylinder, and spun the engine with my electric drill.--Bubbles, bubbles---we got lots and lots of Bubbles. The copper head gasket does not seal worth a ----Well, lets just say it doesn't seal!! No big loss, I still have lots of the treated cardboard to build another headgasket for the Kerzel. I ordered a silicone boot to fit the Rimfire sparkplug this morning, along with two foot of high tension lead to get over to my 12 volt coil. So----Happy New Years to anybody still following this forever thread---Lets hope for a good runner in 2011.----Brian


----------



## stevehuckss396

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Lets hope for a good runner in 2011.----Brian



I have no doubt!!


----------



## rudydubya

Brian, it's a great looking engine, looking forward to more of your videos. If you ever need an emergency head gasket, I've had good luck with short strips of Teflon pipe thread tape laid in a circular pattern around the top of the cylinder. I try not to overlap the pieces. Not pretty, but you can't see it when the head is on.

Regards,
Rudy


----------



## Peter.

If you can use an o-ring as a piston ring why can't you use an o-ring to seal the head?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Peter.  said:
			
		

> If you can use an o-ring as a piston ring why can't you use an o-ring to seal the head?


You probably could if the head or cylinder sealing surface were prepared to take a ring to seal it. This one is designed for a gasket. I am not about to dismantle the engine again for further machining to accept an o-ring.


----------



## NickG

A good idea to consider in the future though Peter - then you could dismantle any number of times without disrupting the seal. Just out of interest Brian, did you anneal the copper gasket again once it was made? I guess it works on bigger stuff because you can torque it down a lot more and actually crush the copper?

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

NickG  said:
			
		

> A good idea to consider in the future though Peter - then you could dismantle any number of times without disrupting the seal. Just out of interest Brian, did you anneal the copper gasket again once it was made? I guess it works on bigger stuff because you can torque it down a lot more and actually crush the copper?
> 
> Nick


There was no reason to anneal it. It was soft copper to begin with, cut out with shears and the holes were drilled. There was no extensive metalworking done to harden it. Its only .025" thick


----------



## jpeter

The Conley V8 uses o-rings for head gaskets, one on each cylinder. I was never able to make copper work. I think, in my case at least, the head bolts are too small to pull it down tight enough. Maybe if the copper gasket was really narrow i'd work. I use paper gasket material. It works well for me. Some suggest Teflon.
 The silicone boot on the spark plug will be plenty cool but if you want a temporary boot use a piece of silicone model air plane gas line, 1/8 inch. If you use 1/8 inch dia test lead wire for sparkplug wire you can stick it in the silicone gas line boot and you're done, no mechanical attachment needed. It's a good way cuz you can see the spark through the silicone to see if the ignition is working. The gasline comes in colors too.
 Just my two cents.


----------



## Ken I

Copper rings need to be annealed with each use.

Heat bright red and quench in water - this makes them putty soft.

Copper age and work hardens quite rapidly. (depends on grade)

I have a piece of copper wire which annealed is like spaghetti but you can actually feel it work harden as you flex it.

Ken


----------



## NickG

Yep, I think even drilling and cutting can work harden it. It may have worked annealing it but I still don't think you'd get enough clamping force on a model anyway.

Nick


----------



## mu38&Bg#

In RC engines you typically see aluminum head gaskets usually no more than 3mm wide. Some people skip it and lap the head to the top of the sleeve.


----------



## jonesie

on my powerhouse ic i used a very thin coat of permatex liquid gasket on both sides. real thin and it has worked fine. jonesie


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Sigh of relief!!! I have my compression back. Pulled out the copper gasket and replaced it with the treated cardboard gasket material. I am waiting now for my sparkplug boot and ignition wire, fingers crossed!!! My belief is that on a small engine like this, where the head is held in placewith six #5-40 shcs., you simply can't apply enough torque to get a seal on a copper gasket no matter how soft it may be.


----------



## gbritnell

Hi Brian,

 You can use a copper gasket as a head gasket but it takes a little trick. I also found out early on that with small screws you can't get enough compression pressure to actually seat the copper gasket no matter how annealed it is. Here's what you have to do.
 Make up a plate, aluminum is fine, with a small groove machined into it. The groove can be .045 wide and .025 deep. Now make another plate to locate over the first one with a small ring on it. The ring would be smaller by whatever thickness of copper you are using. Anneal the copper and squeeze it between the plates to form a small ridge in the gasket. Then when you tighten the head bolts it will compress the ring and form a very good seal. 
 I replicated what they use for head gaskets on Japanese dirt bike engines. 
 Why go to all this trouble you ask? Because you can use thinner material for the gasket and it will not burn out or be affected by gasoline and oil.
gbritnell


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks George.---I'll file that one away for future reference.---brian


----------



## Metal Butcher

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> Sigh of relief!!! I have my compression back. Pulled out the copper gasket and replaced it with the treated cardboard gasket material. I am waiting now for my sparkplug boot and ignition wire, fingers crossed!!! My belief is that on a small engine like this, where the head is held in placewith six #5-40 shcs., you simply can't apply enough torque to get a seal on a copper gasket no matter how soft it may be.



Brian, Your right you can't get enough torque on aluminum, at that point you will damage the threads. Every bolt size has a corresponding torque spec based on the material its threaded into. On small bolts like 4-40 and 5-40, 3 to 4 INCH pounds of torque is about the maximum a soft metal like aluminum can take. Copper and aluminum gaskets used on oil drain bolts (for example) have a smaller surface area, and the bolts have a much larger thread. They require a much higher torque to 'crush' the seal, making it effective. I rarely found it necessary to use any type of gasket on the engines that I built in the past. On a few occasions when I saw a minor leak, I used a paper thin layer of 'silicone gasket compound' dabbed on with the tip of my finger. If I used 'gasket paper' it was strictly for the added cosmetic touch. I'm not saying that using gasket paper is wrong under any circumstances. I'm just saying try it out next time. I prefer to use a red high temperature silicone gasket compound. Its a quick, easy, and effective solution for all you 'sealing' needs. 

-MB


----------



## Brian Rupnow

A carpenter I am not!!! But----I don't have any real work right at the moment, and boredom is a great incentive to do SOMETHING!!! I hunted around in my shed and found the end of a spruce 2 x 6 plank. Spent 15 minutes with one of my body sanders (Yes, I went through a custom auto painting phase about 35 years ago---Can you say Metalflake???) and sanded a nice smooth finish on it. Marked and cut a hole to accept my ignition coil, found a 1/2 pint of dark stain from some other long forgotten project, and --Voila'---I'm on my way to a custom base with engine, coil, and switch all nicely mounted on it. The wooden base will want 5 or 6 coats of Varathane to "oilproof" it and then I should have something that looks decent.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

So there we have the wooden base. Two coats of mystery stain and two coats of clear Varathane. and a nice aluminum trim ring to go around the ignition coil when it sets in that rather ragged, rat chewed looking hole in the base.


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## Brian Rupnow

Okay Guys and Girls----Since this truly is a work in progress, and I am still waiting for my sparkplug boot before I can do anymore with the engine itself, I am muddling ahead with the engine base. The pictures show how the engine and ignition coil will be arranged. I like this set-up, and the ignition coil is in great proximity to the sparkplug. The wire hanging out the opposite end of the engine will be routed straight down through a hole in the base and travel through a channel cut in the underside of the base. I'm not crazy about the fact that the wires to the coil are stuck right up top, but you work with what you have. I want an on/off switch and a light that reminds me when the switch is on or off. I may fabricate a coil cover with only a single hole in the top to let the coil wire feed out to the sparkplug, and has the switch and light mounted on the cover. That way the only visible wires will be the two leads which must run down to a 12 volt battery. One of the drawbacks to that plan is that I have no facilities here to weld aluminum, and if I make a cover from mild steel it will need to be painted.--Jury is still out on exactly how I will do that---I'm making it up as I go along.


----------



## dvbydt

Brian,

The coil will work upside down if you want to hide the wires.

Ian


----------



## lathe nut

Brain looks great, I like the way it looks on the wood base with the coil, soon the hear it run on video, hope so, Lathe Nut


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## Brian Rupnow

So---Dream with me a little bit---I like the coil in the position shown.---but I don't want visible wires---And I don't want some big clunky box like affair around the coil. I went down to the hardware store today and bought an illuminated push/pull switch for the engine ignition.---Now, letting my imagination run wild------What if, instead of using wires to the coil, we used 1/2" x 1/8" polished brass---with a few holes added to be decorative---. I would have preferred to use copper, but my local supplier didn't have any. I'm pretty sure brass will carry the current adequately. No chance of electrocution, as its only running off a 12 volt battery. This way we make the ugly wires into a nice design element. Ignore all the wild colours.--I do that to get good "visual definition" in my models as I create them. The blue (cyan) coloured plates that the coil feeds pass through will have to be made from non conductive plastic---or--not touch the trim ring around the base of the coil. (don't want a short circuit!!!) All of the actual wire connections will be made in a cavity hollowed out in the underside of the wooden base.


----------



## rudydubya

Brian, it looks great already, but just some thoughts... Maybe a couple of hollow brass posts, with or without some fancy old-fashioned turnings on them, to hide the wires to the coil. Knurled nuts on the coil connections. A brass jacket for the body of the coil.

Rudy


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Okay guys---Its one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time. I will have to think on this some more.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

I have an alternate design in mind---(never takes me long) BUT---It requires some type of readily available, machineable, non conductive plastic. UHMW comes immediately to mind, but you can't paint UHMW. Type 901 Blue nylon would be excellent also, except that its , Ummm---Blue!!! And it can't be painted either. I need something preferably in black, that is 1/2" thick x about 3" wide, can be machined, and doesn't have to be painted at all. I just don't have any idea where to get such a thing around Barrie.--I know that the local SMC pneumatics supplier uses some type of rigid plastic.---I'll have to call him tomorrow.


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## b.lindsey

Brian, you might check with your local UHMW supplier...at least around here my supplier ise to have it in black as well as the natural white color. Ehey also carried green but that was reprocessed material and wasn't a very consistent color/ What about phenolic sheet. Not sure of its availability but its a thought.

Bill


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## bearcar1

McMaster Carr has what you are looking for.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=aj9472


BC1
Jim


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## Lakc

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> No chance of electrocution, as its only running off a 12 volt battery.


No real chance of electrocution, but the coil primary has approx 300 volts kick itself when the magnetic field collapses during firing. It will have nearly 400v full time if your doing a capacitive discharge type ignition, and thats AC voltage, which heightens the chance of electrocution there. Its a pretty good poke, nonetheless.


----------



## kjk

I got a bunch of black UHMW from Lee Valley tools in one of their grab bags. It helps if you happen to be at one of their stores, but if you call them up they might select a grab bag of the stuff that has enough black in it to suit your purposes.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?p=43210&cat=3,43576,43581


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## Brian Rupnow

I've been thinking about this while the wife and I watched Jeapardy (Thats become our "together" thing each day---I'm getting old!!!) While I am definitly not a woodworker, I think it would look great if I made it from wood and stained it to match the base. Wood is basically "free" around my shop, left over from various projects, and its a good insulator. I'm thinking of a shape somewhat reminiscent of a Model A Ford distributor cap (Told you I'm getting old) with the large diameter covering the top of the coil, and the arms extending out each side to cover the ----Oh hell, I'll model it and post it---thats easier than explaining.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

So this is what I meant. The coil cover is 3/4" thick wood and is hollowed out on the underside to clear the connector posts. The dowels are 1/2" dia. wood, drilled out to 3/16" to allow passage for the "wires". The wires are actually 1/8" dia. steel rods with brass tabs soldered on the top to go across to the connector posts on the coil. They extend through the wooden base to a hollowed out channel on the underside where my true wire connections are made to the switch and to the ignition points. The wood will receive the same stain and clearcoat as is currently on the base. More "woodwork" than I really like, but should look good and be sparkproof.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Hey!!!! This woodwork thing might actually work. The two 1/2" dowels are drilled out and the 1/8" rods leading up to the straps which go to the coil are finished. The only thing I don't really like is that once I've sanded the wood, I can't touch the friggin stuff with greasy fingers!!! I want to get the top part done now so I can get a coat of stain on it to dry overnight.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Well Dang--I'm impressed!!!---But then, I impress pretty easy!!! Now its off for a coat of stain and I'm done for today.


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## Generatorgus

Brian, when I first saw the coil just jutting up there (I'm just catching up with this after a couple of weeks), I didn't like the appearance and was going to suggest disguising it somehow, I like your solution. I also like the brass or copper high voltage conductor idea, just like the old Mod.A. You'll probably get a blast out of it, but it keeps the old heart pumping. When I was messing around with my H Ford engine, using a buzz coil, I electrified the entire top of my SS work bench, got a real blast out of that. I couldn't touch the work top, engine or any of the wires.
GUS
PS: I'm a carpenter, you did a nice job on the base and coil cover, and was free too. ;D


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I'm not quite "there" yet, but I'm getting close. My new woodwork needs a second coat of varathane yet, but I had to do a bit of trial assembly to figure out where to put the channels in the underside of the base to run all my wiring in. I have the sparkplug boot and wire in now, so I have a bit of a push on to get finished up and have another go at getting the engine to run properly with its new sparkplug and gas tank.---And I think I am going to have to paint the coil something else other than that ugly yellow!!!


----------



## kcmillin

It really looks great Biran!

I like the color that the wood turned out. Looks great with the brass.

Is any of that (Yellow Covering) paint going to make its way on to the engine?

Kel


----------



## Brian Rupnow

No Kel, I don't like that yellow.


----------



## steamer

Thats a great build Brian.  Looks great!

Dave


----------



## kcmillin

Brian Rupnow  said:
			
		

> No Kel, I don't like that yellow.



Brian, I was referring to the paint you are talking about using to "Cover Up" the yellow. (Yellow Covering) Will you be painting the engine too?

Kel


----------



## NickG

If you want to keep it unpainted you could always polish up a bit of brass sheet and lag the coil? Or Engine Turned brass around it?

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

kcmillin  said:
			
		

> Brian, I was referring to the paint you are talking about using to "Cover Up" the yellow. (Yellow Covering) Will you be painting the engine too?
> 
> Kel



I don't plan on painting the engine at all. Tonight I spray painted the coil flat black. The centerpeice of this display is the engine, not the coil. I could have made an aluminum coil cover, but really, didn't want to draw attention to the coil.


----------



## jpeter

Hollow out the base. Put the coil under the base. A little mill time outta make a nice pocket in the base for the coil.


----------



## NickG

Yeah I quite like the box arrangements where everything is hidden underneath baring a wire poking through to the spark plug. but it's different seeing the coil and I like your design.

Nick


----------



## Brian Rupnow

So here we are, with all the woodwork finished and the coil painted flat black. The switch is in place, but I have to machine a brass or aluminum mounting plate for it tomorrow. The channels to hold the electrical wiring are all machined into the underside of the wooden base, and I will complete the wiring tomorrow. The wire which is trailing off the back of the engine will be routed straight down through a small hole in the base, and so the only visible wires will be the sparkplug wire and the wires which lead to the 12 volt battery. Also, since the ignition wire to the sparkplug is only about 0.100" in diameter, I will make a wooden reducer bushing to place in the end of the coil which has a 0.48" hole in it for a standard automotive sparkplug wire.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Finally, the base is completely finished. All of the woodwork is finished. (even the reducer fitted into the end of the coil). The wiring is all completely hidden in grooves cut into the underside of the base, held in place by a liberal application of silicone. The two brass "fingerwheels" which you see at the end of the base are there to hook up leads from a 12 volt battery. The switch is an "illuminated" type on which the end lights up when the switch is in the "on" position. I am now ready to take up the good fight again and attempt to get the engine running in true "hit and miss" mode. First however, I'm off to the hardware store to buy a good fire extinguisher for my office. I have two out in the main garage, however its 40 below out there so I've been doing all the previous "first runs" on the desk in the corner of my office. The base became a project all its own while I was waiting for my sparkplug and ignition wire to come in from Washington and Ohio respectively, and I also found time in there to install a quick change toolpost on my lathe. Now, back to work.---Brian


----------



## Brian Rupnow

*CLICK ON THE PICTURE---ITS A VIDEO*--The engine is all back together and running good with the new sparkplug. The needle valve is horribly sensitive--You find the setting where it runs well, and don't dare change it even a cats whisker to either direction or it shakes and dies out. I have to put a spring on the needle so it doesn't shake itself out of adjustment. Big question---How the devil do you slow these things down???? Since it seems that there is only one setting where the engine runs consistently and well (Thats the speed its running at in the video), do I want to mess with the ignition or valve timing to slow it down, or leave it set at that speed and depend on the Kerzel lever to put it into hit and miss mode? I'm sure that going in and out of hit and miss mode wil slow it down considerably. I'm breaking new ground here (for me) and would appreciate one of you chaps who have succesfully built and run these hit and miss engines giving me a heads up---What do I do now???----Brian


----------



## jim hay

Way to go Brian, beautiful. Both in sight and sound, Jim Hay


----------



## kcmillin

The whole package looks great Brian! It will look great next to all the other goodies on your shelf.

It is running really smooth, although fast, but I am sure you will get it running in hit and miss mode no problem. 

Kel


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I think the next step will be to go to stronger governor springs. I put a second spring on the very end of the hit and miss lever to assist the current governor springs.--This would in theory keep the engine from going into hit and and miss mode at too low an RPM. What I find though, is that the pressure from this secondary spring puts quite a heavy drag on the sliding spool as it fights against the governor weights trying to move the spool into the "miss" mode, which in turn prevents the engine from speed ing up at all, and it just can't sustain enough RPM to keep running. The thing is with the new sparkplug, once I find that "sweet spot" in the needle valve adjustment, it will run for hours, whereas before, with my own home built sparkplug I could never get it to keep running. This could have been the fault of my sparkplug, or it could have been from having the fuel tank set too high. I will never know now, as I replaced the sparkplug with a store bought one and made a new lower fuel tank at the same time. Making two changes at once makes it impossible to exactly diagnose what the problem was. However, there is clearly visible erosion of the corian at the tip of my homebuilt sparkplug, so I am not in the least sorry that I went to a purchased plug instead.


----------



## cfellows

Brian, as aermotor8 says, you need to use weaker governor springs to slow the engine down. You basically want the governo weights to fly out at a lower speed and holder the exhaust valve open.

Stronger springs will make it run faster.

Chuck


----------



## rudydubya

Brian, the helper spring on my Upshur is just barely strong enough to push the lever back away from the pushrod, and is only there because the bobbin (or spool) on the crankshaft is not pulled back toward the flywheel by the governor weight arms. With your design, it looks like it is, so do you really need that second spring at all?

Rudy


----------



## tel

ONYA Brian - you are sooo close now! Thm:


----------



## Brian Rupnow

This is difficult to explain. I want to eliminate the spring which I put out at the end of the Kerzel arm completely to remove the bind it is putting on the slider spool. Although Chuck is correct in what he says, if the governor springs are too weak (as mine now are). the weights fly out too soon, so that the engine doesn't have a chance to rev up high enough to keep itself running. I need my springs to be stronger--enough so that the engine builds up enough speed/momentum to keep itself cycling thru a complete revolution. However, I don't want them too strong, because the the engine will never go into the miss cycle. Its a balancing act. I just removed one full turn from each governor spring, and formed a new loop at the cut off end. (That is much more difficult than I anticipated it would be.) I will keep removing one full turn at a time (Thus effectively making the springs "stronger") untill I reach a point where the weights won't fly out to soon, thus killing the engine, nor to late (which would either make it rev too fast or completely stop the miss cycle).


----------



## zeeprogrammer

Beautiful job Brian.
What a thread! The history is so interesting.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO---------YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE------------------


----------



## GailInNM

Congratulations, Brian.
We all knew you would get there.
Now the fun begins. Tuning. So many variables -- and they all interact.
Gail in NM


----------



## kjk

That's really neat. If formula one cars used hit and miss engines, that's what they would sound like. You're almost there Brian.


----------



## steamer

Way to go Brian!  congratulations!


Dave


----------



## NickG

Brilliant Brian, looks like you're finally there - as you say just a lot of playing around with tensions etc now. :bow:

Nick


----------



## T70MkIII

Congratulations, Brian. Firing it up in hit and miss must have been a great feeling. Well done.


----------



## cfellows

Nice work, Brian. Watching your video, I'm wondering if the flywheel weight is too high. It sounds like it fires several times to get the engine up to enough speed for the governor to kick in. Just throwing this out there as a question. Can you try it with the flywheel opposite the governor removed?

Chuck


----------



## tel

Not that I know, being a rank beginner with these, but I suspect that spring on the latch arm (Kerzel arm) might be the culprit.


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

Winners are Grinners :bow:

Your perseverance and dedication are an inspiration to the rest of us. :bow:

Congratulations Thm:

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Thanks guys!!! Chuck--I took the non-governor flywheel off tornight just for giggles. It didn't run nearly as well. It needs the weight of both flywheels to keep it moving between hits. I tried a different pair of springs than the ones I had, but they weren't different enough to make much difference. I tried it with just one spring, but it goes into miss mode too easily with only one spring, and the engine doesn't get going fast enough to keep itself running. I changed the valve timing a bit to see if I could perhaps get the engine to slow down a little, before it explodes from over revving.--tuneing is ongoing.


----------



## chuck foster

brian another thing to look at is the compression ratio.
i have a fairbanks model that when built to the drawings it has way to high of a compression ratio.
at top dead center there was .090" between the top of the piston and the cylinder head. 
now this engine would run but it had to run really fast, about 700 to 800 rpm's. so i shortened the connecting rod by .750"
now it will run so slow that just before it fires at top dead center you can see the flywheels almost stop.

with the higher compression ratio it takes allot more rpm's to over come the compression.

i hope what i just typed makes sense???

chuck


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Aermotor--I have removed the spring at the outer end of the Kerzel arm---it was not in the original plan, and wasn't necessary on this engine. This is a fairly low compression engine, along the lines of 5 or 6 to 1 compression. I have to play with the valve and ignition timing untill I get it ticking over slowly. It runs well at a higher RPM and does go in and out of hit and miss mode as you can see in the video. I agree, I probably need lighter springs, but untill I get the engine to run slowly on its own, it Definitly is not going to run slowly in hit and miss mode.


----------



## Generatorgus

Brian, I'm not at all familiar with what it takes to slow one of these little guys down. On the full size hit n miss my buddy is expert, people bring engines to him, even from fairly long distance, to slow em down.
Some of his tricks:
Compression: ad a head gasket or two
         remove a ring or two
Fuel: Richen it up or choke it a little
Governor: lighter springs
       remove one spring or sometimes both, even remove one weight
       stretch one or both springs a little
       if one spring is too little to latch up, cut a coil or two off
       Spring mods are his first choice
Maybe none of the above, sometimes they just don't want to slow down. Truth is they weren't made to run slow. Hang in there, you'll figure it out. Nice build.
I like slow running throttlers myself, nice even sound. 
Just my couple of pennies worth.
GUS


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I have been tweaking---fiddling---adjusting!!! I have the engine going in and out of hit and miss mode, but its away too fast. If I slow it down and use weaker governor springs, then when it does go into miss mode and then come back out of miss mode, even though the exhaust valve begins to function again, the engine won't "catch" and fire again, instead it just runs down and quits. So---I have been trying to get the engine to run consistently at a much lower RPM. Adjusting the ignition timing has some effect on this, but no amount of advancing or retarding the ignition got me to the lower RPM I desired. the next obvious step was to monkey with the valve timing, and it has yeilded signifigant results in terms of engine speed. Today I go out in search of weaker governor springs


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## NickG

Brian, can't remember whether the latest carb had a throttle or not, but could you put a restricter in there so it's not wide open all the time and weaken the mixture accordingly. What is the compression ratio approximately? I would have said something like 5 or 6:1 should make the engine more docile. The inertia in the flywheels alone has to be enough to compress the mixture when it wants to hit again so you want a low compression ratio. Maybe the flywheels could do with being heavier to slow it down too. How much friction is there in the system? Again, without going through the massive log, what sort of piston ring did you use? I know it's an i.c. but the same principle must apply still to get friction as low as possible. With the exhaust valve held open does the engine spin over freely? With a hit & miss where you want the engine to coast happliy before it hits again, friction must be a big consideration.

You've probably thought of all of this but just thought I'd chip in with some of my initial thoughts.


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## Brian Rupnow

NickG  said:
			
		

> Brian, can't remember whether the latest carb had a throttle or not, but could you put a restricter in there so it's not wide open all the time and weaken the mixture accordingly. What is the compression ratio approximately? I would have said something like 5 or 6:1 should make the engine more docile. The inertia in the flywheels alone has to be enough to compress the mixture when it wants to hit again so you want a low compression ratio. Maybe the flywheels could do with being heavier to slow it down too. How much friction is there in the system? Again, without going through the massive log, what sort of piston ring did you use? I know it's an i.c. but the same principle must apply still to get friction as low as possible. With the exhaust valve held open does the engine spin over freely? With a hit & miss where you want the engine to coast happliy before it hits again, friction must be a big consideration.
> 
> You've probably thought of all of this but just thought I'd chip in with some of my initial thoughts.



Compression ratio is 5:1 flywheels are very heavy--bronze outer rims. Spins freely with exhaust valve held open. Piston ring is Viton o-ring. No throttle on current carb.


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## NickG

Hmm, if all of that seems in order I guess the only real way to slow it down then is for it to draw less air / fuel mixture. If the timing is right there's no point messing with that, it will just cause it to run roughly, the fuel mixture should be the right so think you need to restrict the air flow.

Nick


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## putputman

Brian, you are very close to getting your engine running the way you want. There is one area that hasn't been addressed yet. That is the drag on your piston. If you go back to your post #192, where you used the o-ring manufacturers recommendation on o-ring groove dimensions, you will see they ask for .010 - .018 squeeze on the o-ring cross section. That is probably a good and necessary squeeze on a o-ring used in a hydraulic cylinder, but it is way too much for a model engine. 

A typical 1/16 o-ring has a .070 cross section. When I cut the o-ring groove in a piston, I cut the depth to about .001 less than the cross section. This provides very little drag when the engine is free wheeling, but when the engine fires, the pressure compresses the o-ring against the back surface of the groove and provides plenty of squeeze. I have use this procedure on several of my engines and it has worked well for me.

I made a video for you showing how little drag there is on one of my engines that uses a Viton o-ring. As you can see when I spin the flywheel it bounces back and forth several times. Also when I spin it with the exhaust valve open, it spins free for many revolutions. This engine is using one cast iron ring that wound not seat, and one Viton o-ring in the second groove. 












You might compare this with your engine to see if it is this free or if there is enough drag to prevent it from running in a hit & miss mode. You should be able to run much slower without stalling out the engine. This you achieve with lighter springs.

You should be able to re-cut the grooves in your existing piston. If not, pistons are pretty quick & easy to make.

I sounds to me that your valves and timing are working well and I think you have done all you can with them. 

I admire your perseverance and feel your pain.


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## NickG

Glad you've chipped in Arv, that's what I was trying to get at with the friction issue. Video is worth 1,000,000 words!


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## Brian Rupnow




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## Brian Rupnow

All good things must come to an end, and I think I am going to end this thread on a positive note. Its been a great learning experience, I have built my second I.C. engine succesfully, and it does run in hit and miss mode. Not as nice as some I have seen, but hit and miss, none the less, and I have got it to run much slower. Further running may show me a way to get it to hit only once instead of multiple times between misses, but for now I am about 95 percent satisfied. If I ever get it to run as good as some others I have seen on this forum, I will definitly come back to this thread and post a video. Thank you to all who hung in there for the duration of this gigantic thread and offered advice and encouragement.----Brian


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## kcmillin

Real Great Job Brian! All together this thread in very educational.

You have built a engine to be proud of, I for one really like the wood base and all the do-dads on the engine. 


Kel


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## NickG

I agree, it running at all is a massive achievement in my eyes, but the fact that it runs as sweet as a nut now, and in hit & miss mode is superb. Well done Brian, everybody has enjoyed this greatly.

Nick


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## lathe nut

Brian, I have sure enjoyed everything about the long and learning post you have a lot to be proud of, I think it was a great success I learned a lot and learned that I am many hours of every Trying something like that, it looks good runs good, thanks for letting us see it all, Lathe Nut


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## Brian Rupnow

Although this is not really a "Work in progress" at this point, those of you who followed this thread may find this of interest. As you may remember, the main bearings for this engine were originally made from bronze. To my dismay, (and puzzlement) they wore out before I even had the engine running. I built a second set of main bearings from brass, and they seemed to work fine. This was very curious, because bronze is a far superior bearing material. I have ran the engine a bit every day, as I am rather intrigued by it, and now, Lo and Behold, the brass main bearings have gone the way of the bronze main bearings. They are severely worn, and you can actually grab a flywheel and "wiggle" it around due to the slop in the bearings. The bearings have lubricators on them, and I can see that they are using oil, so lack of lubrication has not caused this problem. I can only conclude that my built up and silver soldered crankshaft must have enough "distortion" in it to cause this accelerated bearing wear. I now have to come to some reasonable fix for this situation. I could build another complete crankshaft, but seeing as the 7/16" bearing bosses are actually machined seperately as sleeves and slid onto the 3/8" diameter crankshaft and loctited in place, I may try another approach. The existing crankshaft still has the countersinks in each end that were used to turn it between centers to clean up excess silver solder. I may heat up the existing bosses to break the loctite bond, slide them off, and install new bosses 1/2" in diameter and loctite them in place. After a 24 hour cure time, I will then set the crankshaft up between centers and using a lathe dog to transmit torque, turn the new sleeves "in place" to the required 7/16" diameter. That, along with another set of main bearings SHOULD solve the worn bearing issue once and for all.---Brian


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## compspecial

Hi Brian
   Its hard to imagine how a shaft which has run-out or is not running true could possibly spin freely in an engine, if you had ,say 2thou run-out and 2thou bearing clearance of course it would bind. You say you still have the centre drillings in the shaft
maybe you could mount the shaft between centers and confirm (or otherwise) any distortion with your trusty dial indicator 
                                Stew


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## Brian Rupnow

Stew--I definitly will do that before I make any attempt to modify the crankshaft. Set it up between centers and run a dial indicator on both bearing surfaces. If there is no discernable "out of true" condition in the crank, I certainly don't want to go to the work of modifying it.-----but that will leave me scratching my head about what is happening to my main bearings !!!


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## jpeter

I have this saying that if it won't bounce it won't run. What I mean is if you flip the flywheel against compression will it bounce back or just wheez out the compression? If it won't bounce back it won't run well. Also, who ever suggested choking off the intake with a restricter has it right too. An engine that size could run well, slowly that is, with about a 1/16 air intake. Try a choke tube in the intake with a 1/16 hole in it. Its easy to make one up. Maybe a piece of tape ove the intake with a pencil lead hole would be a good way to test that theory.


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## Brian Rupnow

Metal Butcher has me thinking (Which is not always a good thing) about an adjustable position for the point at which the "hit and miss lever" engages the pushrod to hold the exhaust valve open. On the original Kerzel engine plans, there is no provision for this adjustment, which has caused me no end of grief in getting things set "just right" for the point at which the hit and miss action begins to take place. I am bored today, so I spent a bit of time coming up with a way to make this adjustment possible on my engine. I did have an earlier design in mind, but it was simply to crowded to implement. I'm not sure I will build this, but boredom and lack of projects to machine does terrible things to me, so this may happen.---Brian


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## Metal Butcher

Oh no! I wasn't trying to cause you any trouble Brian. Thinking always gets me in way over my head. scratch.gif

That's a really nice adjusting mechanism you came up with. I like it a lot! You should be able get a real 'fine' adjustment with out any problem using that system. If I may... I would suggest coming up with a design to make the push rod adjustable too. I think that this would allow you to control the length of time that the exhaust valve stays open.

-MB


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## tel

The push rod already has some adjustment where it screws into the block at the end. You could get a bit more by installing an adjustment screw in the outboard end of the tappet.


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## Metal Butcher

tel  said:
			
		

> The push rod already has some adjustment where it screws into the block at the end. You could get a bit more by installing an adjustment screw in the outboard end of the tappet.



Hi Tel, thanks for pointing that out. I can see where it must be threaded into the cam follower in Brians last post of a drawing.

On the Upshur there is no adjustment on the 4-stroke versions. on the hit-n-miss versions a clevis is added to the out board end of the push rod, but the plan calls for the use of Loctite for attachment with no way to adjust it. So to add an adjustment feature, I threaded the end of the 3/32" push rod and tapped the clevis 3-56 to solve the problem.

Sometimes plans leave plenty of room for creativity, and most of it is due to a need for improvements.

-MB


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## gunna

Hi Brian, I'm exhausted just from following your build story. Congratulations many times over.
Ian.


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## Brian Rupnow

Tel is correct. The pushrod screws into the block with the follower bearing on it, and that is how you adjust for valve lash. I have found that the optimum setting is about .005 to .007 "free space" between the end of the pushrod and the rocker arm when the follower bearing is not riding "up" on the cam. The model I did up and posted yesterday would depend on the pushrod not being able to rotate. In practice, without a jam nut to hold it from rotating, the pushrod will quickly rotate itself out of spec when the engine is running. Rather than fab up a locknut, I put a bit of loctite on the thread and set it at the correct position. I like this method of adjustment I have designed, because it is all "bolt on" and I don't have to mess with the integrity of the existing engine package. ----And as Tel pointed out, if I want to maintain some adjustment of the pushrod length, I can put a screw into or threaded sleeve over the end of the pushrod that contacts the rocker arm.


----------



## tel

I did my rod with 5BA thread, a little longer than called for, and use a one-size-smaller 5BA nut to lock it. Adjusted it to around 0.005" tappet gap, bur haven't seen the need to fit an adjusting screw (yet).


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## Brian Rupnow

My engine will start out very easy when its cold, and the hit and miss function works quite well, although I have never yet been able to get it down to a single hit between "miss" cycles--it always hits 3 or 4 times.. After 4 minutes of continuous running, you can see that the engine is stiffening up, to the point where the RPM's start to drop off and it doesn't go into "miss" mode anymore. After another two minutes of running, it slows down and stops. At that point if you try and turn it by hand, it is quite "stiff" to turn. After an hour of cooling down, it turns freely again. I assume from this, that the cylinder barrel is heating up and "crowding" the piston, even though the cooling reservoir is filled with water. When I built this engine, I put 2 Viton o-rings on the piston. It has mega compression with the head removed and a solid blocker plate bolted on in place of the head. (I discovered this while trying to sort out my lack of compression due to non-sealing valves.) Now, looking at this in retrospect, I am beginning to think that perhaps the drag created by 2 o-rings is the culprit which keeps my engine from going into a true hit and miss mode where the engine only fires once between misses instead of hitting 3 or 4 times. It may also be the reason for the piston beginning to "freeze" in place after the engine runs for about 6 minutes. I suppose my next logical move would be to remove one of the Viton o-rings without changing any of the other settings to see what the results would be. I would like to hear some input on this from others who have built "succesfull" hit and miss engines using Viton rings please.-----Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

My piston is aluminum. The cylinder barrel is stainless steel. I used Viton because I am an amateur machinist and I din't think I had enough knowledge to make my own rings. The concept of a brass piston ring is interesting. I haven't heard of that before. On Metalbutchers wonderfull post about making his Upshur engines there is some good info on making piston rings. I will give that another look.


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## jim hay

Hi Brian
   This writer had an old model maker say that using two o rings was a bad idea because pressure could build between them and cause a problem like you describe. fwiw, a friend in models, Jim Hay


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## jpeter

There's lots of ways to make a ring but lots of guys make them the exact diameter then clip them to create the break. I then lay mine on a 1/4 inch plate of steel, place a spacer in the gap, and heat the steel from underneath until the ring relaxes. It works for me. I think getting the height really close to equal with the groove is important too, 0.0005 or about. Its not easy to get a good ring, at least not for me, although I can do it. I make mine from cast iron. 
Be reminded too, a ringed piston requires a good cylinder, straight and round. I'm not talking about just close to straight but really straight and round.


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## Brian Rupnow

This morning I decided that before I got too crazy (crazier??) about making a new cylinder liner and piston from grey cast iron, I should really try this engine with one o-ring to see what difference it would make with the friction in the engine. I pulled the engine apart, removed the second ring down from the top of the piston, and while I had it apart I chucked up the piston and turned the groove for the remaining o-ring about .010 smaller on the diameter. While it was apart, I got out my polishing buffs and polished the water jacket/cylinder body and the rims of both flywheels. One thing I was surprised to see was that there are no rub marks on the piston at all----the entire piston is "floating" concentric to the cylinder, held there by the Viton o-rings!!! the removal of one ring and the deepening of the remaining groove makes an incredible difference in the "stiffness" of the engine, yet I still have loads of compression. The engine now runs much more freely, and swings in and out of hit and miss mode much more readily than it did before. I haven't had time to try an "endurance run" yet to see if this new "freedom" will make a difference in how the engine seemed to be heating up and dragging on the piston after a 5 or 6 minute run. (I've been running it on the corner of my desk in my engineering office), and not only am I getting yelled at by the wife for stinking up the house, but I don't want to gas myself. Tomorrow I will take the engine out to the big garage and try an endurance run to see how long it will stay running.


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## NickG

Brian, good experimentation there. It's what we all thought - friction, so now that's proved it some of the other methods you've discussed would help even further. Gail has had some interesting results with his graphite piston so that could well be worth a try for the little time / effort it would take.

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

The engine is running out in the big garage as I type this. I can hear it from my office. Its been running for 21 minutes straight now, which is the longest its ever ran without stopping. Its funny, but with the engine running "at a distance" you can really here it bark when it fires. Right now it fires 3 times, then coasts, then repeats the cycle. I don't know why, but the exhaust note is distinctly different with only one ring on the engine. I only have one governor spring on it now, but it is not adjustable at all. I am going to set down tonight or tomorrow morning and design an adjustable tension single spring and bracket to fit between the two bob-weights on center. I am SOOOOO CLOSE to having that thing fire once, coast for three or four cycles, then fire again a single time and repeat that I can almost taste it!!!


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## jpeter

That's pretty sweet. Your on the right track.
You know, if a little is good, more is better. You outta loosen the ring some more.


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## Brian Rupnow

The engine ran good for 31 minutes straight. after 31 minutes, it quit missing and ran in plain 4 cycle mode. It ran that way for another 4 minutes, then quit. When I tried turning the flywheel, everything was still very free turning. Then I checked the gas tank, and seen it was out of gas. I added a tank of gas, but it doesn't want to run right now, so it may have sucked up a bit of dirt when it ran out of gas. It actually ran long enough that there was steam coming off the water in the cooling reservoir, just like you see in the full size hit and miss engines. Of course its colder than a witches tit out in the main garage, so the steam was much more visible. This is very encouraging!!! I will have to bring it back into the office after it cools down, or it will suffer the fate of so many full size engines with water cooling reservoirs----it will freeze and burst the block.
EDIT---I found the problem---My pushrod had unscrewed itself out of adjustment. I'll make a locknut for that tomorrow.


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## jpeter

That's a pretty long run. You got enough battery for that?


----------



## Brian Rupnow

jpeter  said:
			
		

> That's a pretty long run. You got enough battery for that?


Its a 12 volt heavy duty wet cell boat battery.


----------



## jpeter

That outta work.


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## Brian Rupnow

I made up a locknut this morning for my engines pushrod, and adjusted the Kerzel lever to set just a tad closer to the pushrod notch that it locks into. I started it once again out in the big garage, and it has now been running for 110 minutes non stop on the original tankfull of gasoline. It is getting a lot more hit and miss action now, and seems to be running much much cooler and using much less fuel. I made a video again this morning, just to show the diferences as this tuning progresses. I am going to try and find a source for a lighter tension spring for the counterweights this afternoon.


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## gbritnell

Brian,
At some point when you get everything adjusted as close as you can you're going to find that the last issue is the centrifugal weight of the flywheel. You will only be able to get it to 'miss' so many strokes and then the flywheel inertia won't be strong enough to kick it back over the compression stroke. That is the issue of trying to get any small engine to run slowly, either you make a flywheel that is out of proportion to the engine or just live with the higher rpm.
George


----------



## Brian Rupnow

Three hours and 20 minutes and still running on the original tank of fuel. I am going to call a bearing company this afternoon and check out the price of needle roller bearings for the crankshaft main bearings. You can see the nearside flywheel move a little every time the engine fires----Thats the slop that has developed on the brass main bearings it is currently running. I am absolutely boggled by how long this thing is running on a single tank of fuel. That tank is 0.9" inside diameter x 3.2" long inside.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

The engine just ran out of gas. Holy cow---What a marathon. It ran for 3 hours and 38 minutes on what I calculate to be 1.2 ounces of fuel. (Thats Imperial gallon measure) Somebody check that for me please---the tank is 0.9" inside dia. x 3.2" long inside. The engine stayed amazingly cool throughout the entire run, and stayed in "hit and miss" mode thru the entire run.---Brian


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## NickG

Wow ;D :bow:

That's good going. It seems to be running really freely now, what George said makes a lot of sense though - it's a small engine so it's always going to lose speed quickly once not firing so needs to fire a couple of times to get back up to speed. It would be interesting to try a flywheel with much higher inertia if you had one you could swap but it looks nicely in proportion and runs well as it is.

Nick


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## Brian Rupnow

I have some news and some information. I went to Canadian Bearings this afternoon, and they have needle roller bearings made by Koyo that are 3/8" i.d. x 9/16" o.d. x .375" long part #B66 and they cost $22 for two of them. Since my current crankshaft was made from 3/8" dia. cold rolled stock with 7/16" dia. sleeves loctited over them in the bearing area, I am going to pull the crank out, heat up the sleeves and remove them, and modify my existing engine to take these roller bearings. I think part of the problems I have had with my main bearings quickly wearing out is that the sleeves I made and loctited onto the crank were not bored concentrically (This was proven to me 2 weeks ago when I did the concentricity check on my tailstock). The needle rollers bearings should also cut down on some more friction.


----------



## Maryak

Brian its around 0.37 floz or 10 cc(ml), say 2 teaspoons of fuel. 

Best Regards
Bob


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## Brian Rupnow

Check your math Bob--Two teaspoons aren't going to fill a tank almost 1" dia. x 3.2" long. I'd borrow the wifes measuring cup and check it, but she'd scalp me.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

I just snuck upstairs and "borrowed" the wifes measuring cup and a bottle of Canola oil. The tank holds more than 1 ounce and less than 2 ounces. Now I have to take the engine outside and dump the tank and sneak the wifes kit back upstairs. What in Hell is a Canola???


----------



## Maryak

Brian,

If only I could remember to use PI :-[

How does 33 cc 0r 6.5 teaspoons or even 1.2 floz sound ???

Best Regards
Bob


----------



## Metal Butcher

Quoting Brian: What in Hell is a Canola???

Canola oil from the rape seed, referred to as the Canadian oil because Canada is
mainly responsible for it being marketed in the USA. The Canadian government and
industry paid our Federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA) $50 million dollars
to have canola oil placed on the (GRAS) List "Generally Recognized As Safe" .
Thus a new industry was created. Laws were enacted affecting international
trade, commerce, and traditional diets. Studies with lab animals were
disastrous. Rats developed fatty degeneration of heart, kidney, adrenals, and
thyroid gland. When canola oil was withdrawn from their diets, the deposits
dissolved but scar tissue remained on all vital organs. No studies on humans
were made before money was spent to promote Canola oil in the USA.
a cooking oil.

http://www.ithyroid.com/canola_oil.htm

-MB


----------



## kjk

Canola was formerly known as rapeseed oil and still is in some locales.


----------



## metalmad

I think im just gunna go check the kitchen


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## Brian Rupnow

Jeez---I'm gonna go right upstairs and pour that stuff out!!!


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## tel

I make it 1.12849 US fl/oz or 1.17458 proper ones.

Somehow that doesn't sound right, with a US gallon being small than ours ?????

Canola oil? I use it all the time for cooking - have done for years, and nothing has fallen off, or grown on, me yet.


----------



## kjk

Apparently it all has to do with the volume of 8 pounds of wine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_ounce

You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## bearcar1

tel  said:
			
		

> Canola oil? I use it all the time for cooking - have done for years, and nothing has fallen off, or grown on, me yet.




So you say.      Rof} Rof} Rof}


BC1
Jim


----------



## Ken I

Rapeseed oil is used for industrial lubricants - it is leathal and there have been deaths from using it for cooking.

Canola oil is a genetically modified version of rapeseed oil and apart from a large body of alarmist BS is considered safe.

If you Google a subject - always Google both sides of the arguement.

Google "canola oil dangerous" - 8400 hits

Googla "canola oil safe" - 60800 hits.

I'm not taking a side here - but there are sides.

Aren't we a little off topic here guys ?

Ken


----------



## Metal Butcher

Ken I  said:
			
		

> Aren't we a little off topic here guys ?
> 
> Ken



I don't think so. But, If this thread went off topic than its my fault. I started the ball rolling by answering back to Brian.

Quoting Brian: What in Hell is a Canola???

Ken, with all do respect, its Brian's thread so if he wants to talk about cooking oil, or whatever suits his fancy, its OK by me. 

-MB


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## Brian Rupnow

This thread has gone on so long that if we drift off topic once in a while, I don't think anybody is going to get shot!!! I really didn't know what Canola was, although I have heard of Rapeseed oil. Not being a farmer type, I only have vague ideas of agricultural stuff. When I was a kid growing up in the north we always had a home garden, but it was pretty conventional "pioneer" fare. Carrots, onions, radishes, potatoes, some corn, a few pumpkins , and cucumbers. What the rabbits and deer didn't eat, we did. ;D ;D The big commercial growers in southern Ontario and in western Canada grow a lot of things that were never found in a home garden so I'm not familiar with it.---Brian


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## Brian Rupnow

So I think we all agree, the fuel tank holds something in the neighbourhood of 1 1/8 to1 1/4 ounces.---not too bad for a 3 1/2 hour run. I have been unable to find a tension spring in the size and strength that I want for the counterweight springs, but I used the search function and found an excellent article on spring winding by Deanofid. I have to go across town this afternoon to return a grandchild, so will stop at the hobby store and pick up a small roll of 0.010 music wire (or a guitar string of the correct diameter) and try my hand at spring winding. I know how it gets done in theory, but have never wound a spring myself, so it may be an opportunity to learn a new skill----Yahoo!!!---I like learning new thngs.


----------



## jpeter

How many rpm's does it run? If it's slow enough you can hold your finger so it touches the cam and count the rpm. Around 500 is pretty darn slow.


----------



## Brian Rupnow

According to my laser tachometer its averaging 115 RPM. Does that sound about right for a hit and miss engine?


----------



## jpeter

Seem awfully slow. That be 2 revolutions per second. I never got one to run reliably below 500 rpm. I thought mine were slow. I'm gonna have to get back to work to beat that.


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## Brian Rupnow

I never did trust that laser tach!!!!---Thanks Pat---


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## Brian Rupnow

Just playing around with the "Macro" settings on my camera.---This is a good shot of the push rod and guide, and the top end of the "Kerzel lever" that moves in and holds the pushrod from seating, thus keeping the exhaust valve open. In the original plans this lever had a long extended end on it that didn't serve any practical purpose, so I removed it. It also shows the locknut and sleeve I added to keep the pushrod from uncrewing itself out of adjustment.


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## Brian Rupnow

I thought I would try something new----Spring winding. I have never done this before, but since I couldn't find the proper light springs for the governor weights anywhere to buy, I decided to make them. Deanofid has an excellent tutorial on the HMEM forum, so I just followed along. Kerzel calls for a spring made of 0.010" diameter music wire, wound on a 0.093" mandrel. According to Deanofid, for springs made of music wire less than 0.025" diameter you don't need a special jig. The mandrel is clamped in the lathe chuck, the free end of the mandrel is positioned in the jaws of a tailstock mounted chuck which is NOT TIGHTENED --its there simply to keep the mandrel from bending. One end of the music wire (I used a 0.010" guitar string) is clamped under one of the chuck jaws, and while holding tension on the wire with a pair of pliers the lathe chuck is TURNED BY HAND--NOT POWERED. By keeping the wire tight, with a slight bias towards the chuck (to keep the loops forming tightly against each other with no gaps) it is very easy to do. It takes an amazingly long wire to make a relatively short spring. To get the amount of spring in the picture, I used up almost all of a full length guitar string.


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## Brian Rupnow

Here is a close up shot of the wire on the mandrel---one end clamped under the chuck jaw, the other still being held in tension by the pliers in my other hand.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here is the resulting spring. When the spring has been wound as long as you need it, you have to turn the chuck backwards BY HAND enough to release a bit of the tension in the wound spring, and release the end which was in the pliers very carefully (I did it with my back turned and my eyes closed---wasn't sure just what was going to happen!!!) Interestingly enough, the mandrel was 0.093" dia. and the spring was 0.010, which would give an outer diameter of 0.113" on the spring. However, since it relaxes a bit when you let go of the end, the finished o.d. ends up being 0.139" dia. I still have to heat treat the spring and then form the loops on the end of it, but will post more about how that went tomorrow.


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## Brian Rupnow

So---Here we are finished. The springs were cooked in my wifes kitchen oven at 450 degrees for 1 hour wrapped in steel wool and aluminum foil as per Deanofids tutorial (while my wife was out shopping). The peices of brass were clamped together in my mill vice and a hole very slightly smaller than the o.d. of the springs was drilled thru them lengthwise. The springs were trimmed to the correct length, held between the two peices of brass in the mill vice, and the end loops were pried up with my jacknife. If this works, it will be the easiest NEW technical thing I have ever learned. Now to mount them on the Kerzel engine and see what happens!!!


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## Brian Rupnow

My new governor springs are installed, after much trying at different lengths. The governor is working sooooo freely now, and I've gone from "How do I slow this thing down" to "How the heck do I speed this thing up???" Since this video was taken, I now have the engine firing once, then going into the miss cycle, then firing once again. this is where I ultimately want to be, but I have to speed it up a bit.


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## Brian Rupnow

And here we are, running in hit and miss mode, firing once between each miss cycle. This is exactly what I have been aiming for. When I get the roller bearings installed on the crankshaft, it will cut down a bit more friction, and perhaps "miss" for a longer time between 'hits", but I think I am getting close to the line between torque created by a 3/4" piston and the inertial "break out" point of the flywheels.


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## jpeter

Regarding RPM, here's a short video of one of my small ones, 3/4 bore. It tacs about 500 RPM. I have a strobe tack. I think it's about right cuz you can hear the cam click'n about 4 or 5 times a second. Notice too the cam clicks about 5 times per hit so it coast 10 then hits once. Its about like yours but not nearly so pretty. My cam and gov though are a lot noisier. I wish it didn't rattle so much.


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## Brian Rupnow

Surprise--Surprise!!!! I am tearing down the Kerzel engine and removing the brass main bearings to replace them with roller bearings. As I carefully marked and dismantled everything and made notes to help reassemble all the parts correctly, I got a surprise. Remember how the crankshaft was made from 3/8" diameter stock, with 7/16" sleeves loctited over it in the bearing area.--Well today when I got it stripped down to the crankshaft, I see that one side of the crank has been behaving the way I expected and rotating in the brass bushing. BUT--On the timing gear side, the sleeve had frozen inside the brass bushing, and the steel crankshaft was rotating inside the steel sleeve which was supposed to be loctited to it!!! Thanks to my oilers, it has at least had a good supply of oil all the time it was running and there is only a minor bit of galling on the crankshaft on that side. These little engines keep surprising me in the strangest ways----


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## NickG

Brian,

That's working really well now and the bearings can only improve it further. As you say, I don't think you can really go any further without making the flywheels heavier or rather than heavier, bigger so there's a higher moment of inertia. But then again, as you illuded to, is the 3/4" bore big enough to power larger flywheels. :bow:

Nick


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## Wrist Pin

What a long, strange trip it's been!
I have just finished this thread from start to finish. It has taken me a week chewing it up in stolen minutes here and there. I am utterly amazed at what I have read and seen on video!

Brian
I can't thank you enough for letting us follow you on this journey. If the engine ran right from the start, so much information would not have been posted. I felt your pain as you can up on disappointments and rejoiced as you overcame them. So many others had such great suggestions.

Personally, I never thought I would try building an IC engine from scratch. The valves were something I just didn't want to try. Now, after reading this, it is something I wouldn't be afraid to tackle. There is one of these in my future now.

To everyone
I am so glad I found this site and this thread. The combined knowledge and the willingness to help is commendable. I have no hesitation to tackle any engine now. Knowing that there is a vast reservoir of guidance I can tap into is very comforting. Although fishing season is beginning and I will be out of the shop until fall, I will be back, asking questions and seeking wisdom, as I build these wonderful little machines that have all of us so entranced.
Jim


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## bearcar1

How's that roller bearing addition working out Brian? I imagine that you have been busy with 'real' work and have not had much opportunity to tinker with the Kerzel.

BC1
Jim


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## Brian Rupnow

The Kerzel is running just wonderful!!! The roller bearings did help a lot. I start it up every 2 or 3 days just to listen to it. I have been toying with the thought of machining a steel ring to press over the existing flywheels to give it just a little more revolving mass to carry it further between "hits", but it runs so darn good I really hate to mess with it. As far as "real" work is concerned, I seem to be in another drought, and its not just me. I know a few other folks who do what I do professionally, and they are all very slow too.


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## bearcar1

That is so cool! Thanks Brian. The Kerzel sure does seem to be enjoying those new bearings. ;D

BC1
Jim


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## simister

Brian Rupnow said:


> Good point, Metal Butcher---I've got a brand new 1/2" ball nose end mill I've never used yet!!!




Brian, did you use the ball nose when you made the base plate? I am not quite sure how to machine that radius.

John


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## Brian Rupnow

Simister--I don't know what you are talking about. The baseplate is just a rectangular piece of aluminum plate.


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## simister

Brian,  I have just found your modified drawing of the baseplate and that has answered my queries. I have decided to build this engine. I am just reading and ingesting all the information before I start. 

Your posts on the building of this engine are going to be a great help - thanks,

John


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## Brian Rupnow

Simister--I wish you all the luck in the world. As you can see from my build thread, the Kerzel pretty near kicked my butt. It was my second i.c. engine, the Webster being my first.---Brian


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## simister

Brian, It worries me when you say it near kicked your butt. I am very new to this and I don't want to take anything on that could be beyond my capabilities.

Is it an engine you would suggest after the Webster or something else?

John


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## Brian Rupnow

Simister---It is exactly the engine you should build next. Remember--It was six years ago when I built this engine, and my engine building skills were brand new too. If you got your Webster to run, then you should proceed with the Kerzel.


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## simister

Thanks Brian,

The Kerzel it is.

John


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## simon_rowley

Hi Brian,

I have just spend an interesting few hours reading your HIMEM thread "Brian Builds the Kerzel Hit and Miss I.C.". It must be a distant memory now but hopefully a good one.

I do voluntary work for local schools and museums such as Blist Hill, Ironbridge in the English Midlands. A regular session I hold is "Build a Steam Engine" which is popular with the kids (including those not so young in years!) in the hope that some of them will go on to become engineers. I find it sad that my country that produced the likes or Watt, Stephenson and Brunel now has such a chronic shortage of real engineers.

I would like to move on from steam engines and the Kerzel Hit and Miss Engine seems a good option. To that end I need to produce around 20 engine part sets that just bolt together and, with a bit of tweaking, work - which is of course what you eventually achieved.

Do you think this is realistic?

If so, would you be able to let me have the last/latest drawings that incorporate your considerable build learning and improvements on David Kerzel's original drawings? Also your 3D CAD files which will save me time setting up the CNC machines and potentially castings.

All the best

Simon


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## xpylonracer

Hi Simon

The Kerzel engine plans were available FOC from this forum I think, simple job to make the 3D drawings and CAD/CAM files to suit the machines you intend to use for machining.

xpylonracer


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## Brian Rupnow

I sent Simon all of my cad files this afternoon.---Brian


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