# Rupnow-Johnno Vertical hit and miss



## Johno1958 (Sep 8, 2019)

Well I have made a start. Last week I had a 115mm x 130 mm length aluminum round which took me about 2 and a bit hours to do 3 cuts on my little 6x4 horizontal band saw .This week I decided to bore out the interior 
of the  crankcase .Having done very little boring before I thought I would start  with a 1/2 inch hole and bore to 2.3 inches and get some practice, never again start with the biggest hole you can drill then bore.It seemed to take for ever.I then got on to the two side plates which I machined up and fitted the bearings. Some parts of the plans I will change  here and there to metric as my reamers ,taps ,ect are all metric so the bearings I used are 10x30x9 mm.


This project will take me some time to so it is going to be a slow thread.


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 8, 2019)

Good stuff Johno1958--I will be following with great interest.---Brian


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## Johno1958 (Sep 10, 2019)

Today I did a bit of drilling and tapping and pondered the best way for me to cut out the shape. The little 6x4 band saw can cut vertically with a table that came with it but I don't 
want spend hours straddled across that thing so I think I may put it back in the lathe and turn it down close to the points . I put some little dimples on the edges of the scribe d lines so
I could see more easily .Then mill flat.It's going to make a mess so if there is better way please let me know.


John


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## Brian Rupnow (Sep 10, 2019)

Johno--I used my band saw. I assume what you are showing is one of the engine sideplates?---Brian


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## Johno1958 (Sep 10, 2019)

Yes that's right Brian. I have one of these
 and It can be fitted with a small table.

I have used it for cutting plate aluminum before but for me it was not very pleasurable. One fellow on a forum don't know which ,made a seat for his which might be an option .
John


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## werowance (Sep 12, 2019)

Johno, that's the type of band saw I have.  the table is flimsy and warps and the screws work their way loose all the time.  no close up sawing for me when I use mine.  I even chain drill for thicker stuff on mine.  but it was cheap from harbor freight....  what brand is yours?


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## Johno1958 (Sep 12, 2019)

Werowance , yes I have only cut 10mm aluminum and found it very flimsy.There are a lot of modifications out there you can do to make them more usable in the vertical  mode.
Mine is a cheap one I bought from Hare and Forbes here in Australia and it cuts very straight .Fantastic saw for the price


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## Cogsy (Sep 12, 2019)

I have the same one and it's one of the best tools I ever bought. What used to take me 2 hours with a hacksaw (and ruined my entire day) now happens automatically while I have a coffee or get set up for something else. I can't count the amount of times I wasted days trying to save a part just because I didn't want to saw off another piece of stock.


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## Johno1958 (Sep 13, 2019)

I have to agree on that .I got mine as a birthday present from my better half and I keep telling her it's the best tool I own


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## werowance (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm not saying its not a time saver,  just saying that mine could be a little beefier.  the stand is flimsy, the table is flimsy and the band guides on mine aren't even adjustable.  all I can do is slide them in and out.  most have an adjustment where the ball bearings mount to make it a little more accurate.  mine doesn't even have that.  but yes it definitely beats the hack saw.  id go crazy if that's all I had to work with.  my arm might be stronger though..  

a couple of googled pics to show what I'm talking about.  the first one is like mine with no real adjusters on it.  just blade width by moving the bearings.   the second picture is the better one that allows you to really tweak and get a straight cut. - the kind I don't have.

anyway I don't want to hijack your thread.  the engine is coming along nicely Johno.


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## ShopShoe (Sep 14, 2019)

Are you sure that the "screws" mounting the bearings are not eccentric? That's what my saw has to adjust the blade tracking.

These hacksaws are a great timesaver and are worth having, even if they have a lot to be desired. Just like the rest of the imported from asia low-cost machines, they are much improved by modifications and there are many threads on what people have done. 

--ShopShoe


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## Johno1958 (Sep 14, 2019)

Done a little more today.
 Now a few more holes to be drilled and taped  and a little boring to go.I am not sure yet
if I am going to to go with a points and condenser yet as I would like to try the cheap cdi with moped coil from https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/model-engine-cdi-easy-and-cheap.31128/. I have all the parts to try it out.


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## werowance (Sep 16, 2019)

Looking good Johno.


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## Johno1958 (Sep 21, 2019)

I don't have a face plate or lathe dog yet so I made something that I hope will do the job on the crank shaft. Really slow going ,I am only getting a couple of hours a week on this project.
Hopefully that will change soon as I am going for a day shift job. Night shift has hair on it "Feel like a Zombie" and most days can't get out of my own way little own get any machining done.
Lol what a whinger.
Cheers


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## LorenOtto (Sep 22, 2019)

Johno1958 said:


> I don't have a face plate or lathe dog yet so I made something that I hope will do the job on the crank shaft. Really slow going ,I am only getting a couple of hours a week on this project.
> Hopefully that will change soon as I am going for a day shift job. Night shift has hair on it "Feel like a Zombie" and most days can't get out of my own way little own get any machining done.
> Lol what a whinger.
> Cheers
> View attachment 111292


I have turned several crankshafts with this method (not all successfully).  I ran onto the following video on YouTube and it made turning the crank a breeze: 
You will need to turn a fixture, but it makes turning the center crank a no-brainer.  Give it a try.


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## Johno1958 (Sep 22, 2019)

Thanks for that Loren I may definitely have to go that way but I will try Brian's method first and see what I can come up with or I may use a mix of both ways.
Cheers


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 8, 2019)

Johno--Anything new happening with this build?---Brian


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## Johno1958 (Oct 8, 2019)

Hi Brian.
Not much at the moment. Going for a new job and have an interview on Friday and that is about all I have been able to think about for the last few weeks.


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## Brian Rupnow (Oct 8, 2019)

Good luck Johno--Hope you get the job!!---Brian


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## el gringo (Oct 29, 2019)

Hi Johno,
Haven't heard from  you for a while on this thread. I hope your job interview worked out.
If you are in a place with the vertical engine where you might need a little help/suggestions please give a holler. I am not a machinist by trade but self taught building IC engines and probably have some practical experience I could pass on if needed.
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hi Ray,
No I never got that job but not to worry.I have been a little busy with other things at the moment and for me this is going to be a long build . I definitely will need some help along 
way though . Just got some cast iron for the cylinder and I have some key steel that I will have a go at making the crank with, might be a bit hard going but I have heard it 
machines quite well.
John


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## el gringo (Oct 30, 2019)

Johno, what is key steel in the US? 
Ray M


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## Cogsy (Oct 30, 2019)

el gringo said:


> Johno, what is key steel in the US?
> Ray M


 Pretty sure you guys call it _key stock_ - the stuff for making keys to fit in keyways.


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## el gringo (Oct 30, 2019)

Cogsy said:


> Pretty sure you guys call it _key stock_ - the stuff for making keys to fit in keyways.


thanks Cogsy... I found this online, helped me understand.
https://www.huyett.com/AboutUs/Blog/Blog/October-2019/What-Key-Stock-Material

Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Oct 30, 2019)

Ray from what I read it's  a medium carbon steel  . I find it convenient to use sometimes because it is easy for me to get right sizes but pricey .


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## Cogsy (Oct 30, 2019)

Weird - I've never considered keysteel would be different grades, I've always just assumed it was some sort of standard and you just bought it coated or not. I have a few chunks of the cad plated stuff and it machines ok. Not terrific to cut but leaves a reasonable finish.


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## John Antliff (Nov 1, 2019)

I always believed that key steel was a mild steel as it is designed to shear or deform in the event of over thrust.  It generally is or should be softer and more yielding than the shaft or driven part so that in the event of overload only minor damage results!


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 1, 2019)

John --I don't think that is right. A keys main use is to transfer torque. A shear pin is designed to fail in the event of overload in the system, but keys are not. By the time that there was enough load in the system to shear a key, something else in the system would have failed.---Brian


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## el gringo (Nov 1, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> John --I don't think that is right. A keys main use is to transfer torque. A shear pin is designed to fail in the event of overload in the system, but keys are not. By the time that there was enough load in the system to shear a key, something else in the system would have failed.---Brian


I have seen brass keys used to shear at a point to protect an expensive or more difficult to replace part in  power transmission. 
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 1, 2019)

A quick google, one mob says it's a high grade mild steel another  it's equivalent to 1040 another 1045
John


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## Johno1958 (Nov 2, 2019)

Made a start on the cylinder and finish it next Sunday I hope.


John


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## el gringo (Nov 3, 2019)

Johno1958 said:


> Made a start on the cylinder and finish it next Sunday I hope.View attachment 112028
> 
> John


good to see your progress...looking good
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 4, 2019)

Got little time so i finished off the cylinder and also made a dovetail cutter, flame hardened.



John


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## Johno1958 (Nov 4, 2019)

The best I can measure the bore it is 25.3 mm or 0.996 inch . I do have a  brake hone or would a barrel lap be better to bring it to an inch.
John


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 5, 2019)

Johno-- About final size. I use a three stone brake hone to knock down any high spots and then make the piston to suit the bore (whatever it is). If you are using Viton rings there won't be any problem. If you are making your own rings or buying your rings then you should try and hold close to the 1" bore.


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## awake (Nov 5, 2019)

Great work on the dovetail cutter - and on the cylinder!


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## Johno1958 (Nov 10, 2019)

Well I just had a go at making my first one piece crankshaft 


  and stuffed it up.I went slightly undersized on the
long shaft and the bearing fit is too sloppy. I could rescue it by changing from metric bearings to imperial but I want to have another go.This time I will try some s1214 steel instead of key steel when I manage to 
get some.
John


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## el gringo (Nov 10, 2019)

you might try 1144stressproof....
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 10, 2019)

I would love to Ray but you can't buy it in Australia and the cost of getting it mailed from the USA is jaw dropping.
John


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## el gringo (Nov 10, 2019)

I would think 12xx would distort easily...maybe someone could chime in for direction.
Ray M


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## awake (Nov 10, 2019)

As someone who has yet to try this - your results look good, and I predict the next one will be perfect!


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## el gringo (Nov 10, 2019)

awake said:


> As someone who has yet to try this - your results look good, and I predict the next one will be perfect!



My thoughts exactly!!
RAY M


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## 110samec (Nov 10, 2019)

Johno1958 said:


> A quick google, one mob says it's a high grade mild steel another  it's equivalent to 1040 another 1045
> John



As an aside, the rudder stocks on Archer class boats (Royal Navy) have brass keys, mainly so that any slop in the system that develops wears out the cheap to replace key rather than the expensive steel steering arm. Had to machine a new key last week for one


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## Johno1958 (Nov 10, 2019)

Thanks guys I'll get there eventually .If I need to make a dud or two to get a good one ...well and good  It's the only way  I will learn.
I will try some different metals .The key steel was ok to machine but felt very dry and for me did not finish very well.I used a parting tool to cut
the crank throw so I will look into a better tool for that if there is one. I have some 4140 I can try...maybe a little hard .
John


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## Brian Rupnow (Nov 10, 2019)

John-I just machined some 4140 for a fixture a customer wanted. It is really, really tough stuff. I'm not sure you could machine it with HSS cutting tools. I used carbide endmills to shape the part. Very nasty stuff. I have used 12L14 for my last two crankshafts. As far as warpage of the crankshaft from internal stresses go, it is much better to use hot rolled steel bar (Commonly called A36 here) than cold rolled steel.


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## el gringo (Nov 11, 2019)

Brian Rupnow said:


> John-I just machined some 4140 for a fixture a customer wanted. It is really, really tough stuff. I'm not sure you could machine it with HSS cutting tools. I used carbide endmills to shape the part. Very nasty stuff. I have used 12L14 for my last two crankshafts. As far as warpage of the crankshaft from internal stresses go, it is much better to use hot rolled steel bar (Commonly called A36 here) than cold rolled steel.


Yes Brian,
I also had very good luck using 1144 stress proof as suggested in your vertical hit and miss engine build.
Ray M


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## Johno1958 (Nov 16, 2019)

As luck would have it  a mate of mine had some 1' round cold rolled 1144 he bought from Amazon a couple of years ago and gave me what he had left a 7" length.


Milled it down flat and had another go.Cuts like butter. Problem with using the round is when I make the counter  balance and fit them there will be a little day light showing in the corners .

All done.
John


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## Johno1958 (Dec 2, 2019)

I bought some 1214 steel to have another go at crankshaft making and this one I like. I will have to sand a little  as the bearings are a bit of a tight press fit
at the moment. Hopefully It is the last crank I have to try make for this engine but I need the practice........
John


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## awake (Dec 2, 2019)

Johno1958 said:


> As luck would have it  a mate of mine had some 1' round cold rolled 1144 he bought from Amazon a couple of years ago and gave me what he had left a 7" length.View attachment 112315
> 
> Milled it down flat and had another go.Cuts like butter. Problem with using the round is when I make the counter  balance and fit them there will be a little day light showing in the corners .View attachment 112316
> 
> ...



To avoid the "daylight" in the corners, mill those edges flat - shouldn't take but a minute or two. Unless your shop skills are like mine, in which case it will take an hour or two, with much of the time spent trying to remember where I put the tool I just set down half a second ago ...


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## Johno1958 (Dec 2, 2019)

Yep I'm  hearing you there lol


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## minh-thanh (Dec 26, 2019)

Johno1958 !
What is happening with this build?


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## Johno1958 (Dec 27, 2019)

Hi minh-thanh.
Not a lot happening at the moment although I have started the con rod. Very busy a month either side of Christmas at work for me and family fishing trips .
It's is also very hot this time of year in the garage at over 100 farenheit degrees  yesterday but when the energy level start to rise again ....
John


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