# 4 jaw chuck for Grizzly 9X19...



## MikeR C (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm in the market for a 4 jaw independent chuck for a Grizzly 4000 9X19 lathe. I want one as big as I can but I am worried that when the jaws are opened they will hit the ways. I do realize the jaws are commonly reversable. I am hoping for some suggestions, especially from someone with a 9X19, on what size to get. I am trying to decide between a 4", 5", 5 1/2", and 6". I don't think the lathe would handle a chuck larger than a 6", but that's why I'm asking.
Any hints on where to find a back plate, the spindle is metric 39X4, would also be welcome.

Thank you,
MikeR C


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 29, 2009)

I own a Grizzly 9 x 20 and did not like the 4 jaw independent chuck that came with the lathe. Like you I considered the range of chucks available. The yahoo 9x 20 forum has a lot of discussion about this subject. While some have gone to the 6" chuck with satisfactory results I decided on the 5" because of the issue of the jaws contacting the ways. I'm pleased with the choice and I still think going larger in size may not neccessarily mean you can mount larger stock without the jaws contacting the ways or the front of the crosslide. Even the 5" chuck takes a bit of time to spin up to speed.

I bought the 39 x 4 threaded backplate from Grizzly for less than $30 and the chuck from Little Machine Shop for about $70. The combination has worked well for me.

Hope this helps
Cheers,
Phil


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 29, 2009)

HI mikeR C. I'm facing the same questions you ask. My Enco 9x20 came with a four jaw that seems to me to be less than suitable for my projects. I tried to use it afew times and just gave up.

I just looked at LMS chucks and the jaws are curved for round stock? My spindle thread is 1-1/2" x 8, I think.

I,m getting a little tired of "faking" instead of "making" parts that require an independent four jaw chuck.

I don't have a clue as to how to machine an accurate back plate. Heard its a job for a real pro.

I hope some one comes along to help you out, and I could use some sound advise too.

-MB


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## rake60 (Dec 29, 2009)

I went with the *4-Jaw 4"* from LMC.
I bought the *M39 x 4 Thread 4" Dia* adapter at the same time.

LMC has instruction on how to properly turn the registration boss on the chuck
adapter on their site as a pdf link.
*http://littlemachineshop.com/instructions/LathChuckAdapters.pdf*

Rick


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## vlmarshall (Dec 29, 2009)

Nice thread... I'm watching this one, because I'm planning to get a 9x20 soon.


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## 1hand (Dec 29, 2009)

Mike I know your looking for a 4 jaw but thought I throw ya a pic of mine with a 6" 3 jaw to show ya the size difference.






Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 29, 2009)

I found what looks like the chuck that came with my lathe.

Apparently its a wood chuck? Maybe that's why I couldn't deal with it trying to cut metal. Wonder why it even came with my lathe>?

http://grizzly.com/products/4-Jaw-Chuck/G1082

-MB


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## rake60 (Dec 29, 2009)

My Grizzly 9 X 19 came with that same 4 jaw chuck.
It is pretty much worthless. I had two the screws sockets nearly stripped out
within a week from trying to tighten jaws up on small stock. Then I wised up
and started placing shims in front of the jaws. That was a *P.I.T.A!*
I never saw a 4 jaw chuck with jaws that would not go to center before that one.

I paid the extra for the Grizzly over the Harbor Freight 9 X 20 because it included 
the 4 jaw chuck. For the money wasted, I could have bought the Harbor Freight 
offering and the usable 4 jaw chuck from LMS.

We live and learn.

Rick


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 29, 2009)

rake60  said:
			
		

> My Grizzly 9 X 19 came with that same 4 jaw chuck.
> It is pretty much worthless. I had two the screws sockets nearly stripped out
> within a week from trying to tighten jaws up on small stock. Then I wised up
> and started placing shims in front of the jaws. That was a *P.I.T.A!*
> ...



Sorry to hear that you to had a bad experience with that 'sad' four jaw. Thanks for posting your true experience. I was thinking that members would post that there is no problem with the 'nice' four jaw chuck that came with their lathe. And the problem was indeed my lack of ability.

Thanks for the link to the back plate machining instructions. Sounds a little beyond my abilities at the moment, but what choice do I have. Its time I dealt with this problem and moved forward.

So it looks like the choices from LMS are four, five, or six inch, and they also have both 1-1/2"-8 and M39 x4 backing plates.

Looks like LMS may have what I need including a reasonable price for a backing plate. After barring any other possible sources, I'll be making a decision shortly.

Thanks!

-MB


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## Jared (Dec 29, 2009)

I got that same chuck with my Jet 9x20. I've used it a few times and it got the job done but it was kind of a pain. If you don't mind fiddling around and massaging it it will work. The trick I found was to finger-tighten the nuts on the back so you could still (barely) move the jaws. Then when the jaws are tightened down on the workpiece where you want them, tighten the back nuts and then check the workpiece to make sure it's still where it belongs. Someday I want to get a real 4-jaw, so I'll be watching this thread.


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 30, 2009)

I may have found the lowest price on standard import 4 jaw independent chucks. They carry a 4" and a 6". At these prices I just might buy both and cover all the beses, from normally small to the largest work and chuck my 9 x 20 can handle. LMS seems to have the best deal on a backing plate for both 4" and 6" chucks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-4-JAW-PLAIN-B...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27a9d234af 

http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PRECISION-4-J...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item29fcbcce90

Any body have any experience with this brand of chuck? I think Discount machine carries the same ones.

http://cgi.ebay.com/4-4-JAW-INDEPEN...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item45edaae470

-MB


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## 1hand (Dec 30, 2009)

Nice find MB. Might get set up faster than I thought.


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 30, 2009)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Nice find MB. Might get set up faster than I thought.



Have a little faith in me. I'm old and slow, but not that old and slow...LOL

-MB


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2009)

No, No, At that price I was talking about me getn the 4 jaw............lol


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 31, 2009)

1hand  said:
			
		

> No, No, At that price I was talking about me getn the 4 jaw............lol



I knew what ya meant! I was just havin a giggle,....lol......lol

I placed my order in early, figurin all the lurkers might wipe out thesellers inventory.

Buyer beware! I have never dealt with this seller. And this story could end on a very sour note. This seller could be holding an empty egg-less basket. Furthermore, the quality of these chucks could be poor, making them useless. Unless of course your looking for a heavy paper weight, or a very light canoe anchor. I have never picked, nor do I know how to pick, a four jaw chuck. I have never used, nor do I know how to use, a four jaw chuck. I have never installed, or fully understand how to install, a four jaw chuck. Without any back ground experience my choice is nothing more than a gamble, and I feel lucky. I hope you understand, and hold me blame less in any event.

As Sgt. Shultz would say, "I know nnootthhing." (Hogan's Heroes):big:

But for all you brave souls (like me) that order one, I wish you the best of luck. 

-MB


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## winklmj (Dec 31, 2009)

Keep an eye on the shipping costs for that Discount Machine chuck--$43 chuck but $23 shipping? WTF? $10-13 Priority mail is more reasonable.


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 31, 2009)

winklmj  said:
			
		

> Keep an eye on the shipping costs for that Discount Machine chuck--$43 chuck but $23 shipping? WTF? $10-13 Priority mail is more reasonable.



Good point! However, it could be that your location is far from the sellers shipping point. Mine shows the shipping from DM to be about $15. Also it's good to know that a lot of sellers on E-Bay make a "little extra" by avoiding "seller fees", and add "profit" to the shipping cost. I'm not saying that any of the above sellers are doing just that.

You need to compare "total (delivered) cost" when choosing between sellers of identical items. The sellers reputation is also a factor worth consideration. Any seller with a "percentage rating" below normal body temperature (98.6) is questionable.

-MB

-MB

Edit; Must be two of us! :big:


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## MikeR C (Dec 31, 2009)

I really appreciate all of the replies. I do have the chuck that came with the lathe, but as most people observed, it is a pretty poor excuse for a chuck.
After reading what has been posted above I think i have made up my mind to get a 6". After looking a bit harder at the 6" chucks a couple of the suppliers spec'ed the largest diameter the chuck could hold as well as the diameter the chuck would be with the jaws extended and it appears it would not hit the ways.

Matt, do you have any problems with the 6" 3-jaw? I would like to have a larger 3-jaw as well.

Metal Butcher, both of you , could you possibly post your observations after receiving your chuck?

Thank you all,
MikeR C


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2009)

No Problems with the 6" 3jaw. Actually was using it till 4am this morning "little burst of energy last night". Just got it from Enco for $89 with the free shipping. Real happy with it so far. Just problems with figuring center points of two conjoining circles "hence the 4am"..............lol

Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Dec 31, 2009)

MikeR C  said:
			
		

> Metal Butcher, both of you , could you possibly post your observations after receiving your chuck?
> 
> Thank you all,
> MikeR C



Your welcome MikeR C. Yes I will. We look forward to posting our opinions on the chucks when they come in. Hopefully they will answer the questions that arose by buying an unfamiliar accessory, from an unknown source. But, I'm very excited, so hopefully the wait won't be too long. I ordered two for the both of us. MB1 wanted the smaller (he never has enough money) but adequate 4" one, and I, (MBII) wanted the 6" (to avoid the grief) just in case a larger one is needed. : I was the boy scout and always prepared. And MB1 was always a day late and a dollar short! :big:

-MB I&II


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## Jasonb (Dec 31, 2009)

If you are worried about the jaws of a 6" chuck hitting the bed of a 9" lathe you are living dangerously, the max you should be gripping externally is 6" which leaves approx 2/3rds of the jaws in the chuck body, any more and there is a risk of damaging the chuck. With this amount of jaw in the body the tips of teh jaws will be around 8" dia or less

I ran a 150mm 4jaw in my 210mm lathe for about 20yrs with no problem.

Jason


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## 1hand (Dec 31, 2009)

The jaws will come out of the chuck before they will hit the ways on my 6" 3jaw.


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## 1hand (Jan 9, 2010)

Metal Butcher;

You get your 4 jaw and backing plate yet? I got my 5c and have the backing plate in the 3jaw right now to cut the boss down and turn it down for the 5" chuck. Just waiting on you to show me how too. Hate to have to throw this $35 piece of cast away cause I did it wrong...................
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Matt


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 9, 2010)

1hand  said:
			
		

> Metal Butcher;
> 
> You get your 4 jaw and backing plate yet? I got my 5c and have the backing plate in the 3jaw right now to cut the boss down and turn it down for the 5" chuck. Just waiting on you to show me how too. Hate to have to throw this $35 piece of cast away cause I did it wrong...................
> 
> ...



All my stuff came in on Thursday and Friday. Been busy. I just came up from the shop after taking pictures and will post the pictures and comment tomorrow.

Show you? I have no idea of how I'm going to mount mine. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I knew how to machine a back plate.


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 9, 2010)

I found this link and there's some good info that's helping me to understand what needs to be done to machine the back plates for the four jaw chucks.

It looks like I need to make a spacer to mount my plates backwards and spaced away from the spindle register to machine out the un-threaded step to match the smooth un-threaded area (register) on my spindle. only then can I reverse it to face the chuck side to fit into the chucks back side register.

http://www.armurerieduroi.com/pages/lathe/lathe_backplate.html

I knew this would not be easy.

-MB


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## Deanofid (Jan 10, 2010)

Rick, show us some pictures of what you have to work with. Maybe one of us can get you on the right track.

Back plates sometimes don't have enough free bore on the start of the threads, (for a threaded spindle nose), to allow the plate to register. The last one I got didn't, and it was supposed to have been made specifically for the lathe I was working with.

That free bore is not as critical as the actual register surface between the back of the plate and the larger flat part of the spindle nose. It's mainly there to allow the plate to seat against the register without having a thread bump up on the smooth part of the spindle nose, directly behind where the thread ends.

Will the new backing plate fit in your three jaw chuck with the threads facing the tail stock? Do you have a face plate?

You have a saving grace granted here, in that you are doing a four jaw. You want to make a good job of it, of course, and be as accurate as you know how. However, if you are off a few thou on the match up between the recess in the back of the chuck, and the mating boss on the back plate diameters, it will not be a tragedy as it would with a three jaw chuck.  It's better to learn on this than on a three jaw!

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi all. The backing plates and chucks I ordered came in. Below are pictures of the items 'as received'. and a few of my observations and opinions. Please bear in mind that I have no formal training, and very limited 'self taught' machining experience.

Below are the 4" and 6" 1-1/2 -8 threaded back plates from LMS. The cast iron quality is very good and the machining is also very good. They will normally require further machining on the lathe to make them concentric with the machine there fitted to. Shown is the back side that threads up to the lathe spindle register.






Below are the register sides (face sides) that the chucks bolt onto . The register (step) for the chuck is oversize which will allow for a truing cut on the face and register diameter to insure a concentric running chuck. The out side diameters can also be trued up, or reduced in diameter to match the particular chuck being mounted.






Below is the first problem I encountered. The scribe is touching the lathe spindle register. The back plates will only screw up to the register. Some quick measuring shows my register to be 1.534. x 3/8" long. The back plates are 1.500 x 1/4", and 1.501 x 1/4" deep. Its my understanding that the M39 x 4 back plates screw right on the China Made 9 x 19 without a problem. When I called LMS I was told these would also screw right on. My machine is the first and more expensive version that was made in Taiwan, and they came with a 1-1/2 x 8 spindles.






On the left is the 4" LMS back plate, and on the right is the factory furnished 3 jaw chuck with back plate. The difference in the depth of the register recess can be seen.






The 6" and 4 chucks that I got off of the E-Bay seller. One came with a 'Shars' label that fell of. I believe that both sellers and 'Shars' sell the identical chucks made at the same specs. They will need to be de-burred since the edges, and especially the edges around the adjusting screws are razor sharp. This typical finish up work is not a problem for me and should take less than an hour. We all know the old saying "You get what you pay for" and for about $50 they seem to be a bargain. But understand that I don't think that de-burring and buffing the corners will make these chucks comparable to a $500 Bison brand chuck.






The chuck 'keys' are so poorly made that I could only laugh! Their appearance compared to my average work makes me feel like a 'Master Machinist'. This was expected and again is not a problem. There are three ways to deal with this, ignorine their crudeness, buy better quality self ejecting keys (could be problematic on an adjustable four jaw), or machine up a pair of beauties. 






Not much to say about the back side. I did check all the threaded holes and they are deep and A-OK.






The jaws are relatvly tight with very little play. The adjusting screws are ground and fit the bores in the chucks well. The running faces of the teeth on the screws and jaws are ground, but not the quality I would expect. The rest of the non- running surfaces are for a lack of a better word "crude". Clean it, close it, and forget it. The only concern here is, will this affect my ability to adjust a work piece to zero, and walk away with my sanity?






I took apart the 4" for cleaning and de-burring. It made quite a bit of difference in the the way the jaws open and close. And with the sharp edges gone I feel it was worth the effort for cosmetic reasons, and more importantly safety reasons.

Do I recommend this brand? Sorry, but you need to make you own choice. For me the small amount of use mine will get it may turn out to be all that I need. And the small amount of money spent won't stop me from buying a better replacement if it becomes necessary. Only time will tell.

-MB






-MB


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## Deanofid (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi MB;
Have you figured a way to cut the free bore in the backing plates yet?

About backing plate free bore and spindle relationship;
Something you may like to know about that particular dimension on backing plates is that it is often a fair bit larger than the diameter you are pointing to in the one picture. Having done a few of these jobs, I've seen similar sized spindles where the free bore in the plate is .005+ larger in dia than the unthreaded part of the spindle. That part doesn't have a lot to do with the alignment of the plate to the spindle. The two abutting surfaces on the plate and spindle are what need to match up nice and flat. That surface of your backing plate should be cut flat, already. Lets hope so. 

Measure the free bore in the back of your three jaw mount, and I'd imagine it will show that there is plenty of breathing room between it and the unthreaded part of the spindle nose. It will give you a starting point, at least, for cutting the free bore in the backing plate threads.

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 10, 2010)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Hi MB;
> Have you figured a way to cut the free bore in the backing plates yet?
> 
> About backing plate free bore and spindle relationship;
> ...



Hi Dean. I just finished up the four inch back plate. Unbelievable! It can't be any thing but beginers luck!

My spindle register is 1.534, and my original chuck plate is 1.536 a .002 clearance.

My boring job on the 4" is 1.5355!!!! Yipeeeeee.

I finished up the chuck register using a 'no go' 'go' cut and fit by cutting .0005 each try till it went on. I'm Guessing clearance at .0005 t0 .001 clearance which is fine since it is an adjustable 4 jaw.

The next two are gonna be a lot tougher. The one for the collet chuck has no spindle register at all. If I fail I'll have to get another back plate

-MB


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## Deanofid (Jan 10, 2010)

Very good, MB! It's not beginners luck when you cut to a target, you know.

Again, it's not that free bore measurement that makes things accurate, though. 
It's the two flat surfaces that abut, one on the back of the backing plate, and one which is the larger flat surface on the spindle that is perpendicular to the threads. Those two, and their relationship to the backing plate boss and large front surface of the plate are what put your chuck on center, and with its body parallel to the bed. That's why you cut the boss and front mating surface of the plate last.

Sounds like you know what to do. You're going to like having a four jaw. You can start cutting weird stuff, and enjoy doing it! 

Have some fun, and show us your inevitable triumphs.

Dean


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## Powder keg (Jan 10, 2010)

Great news MB!!! I'd call that skill in my book ;D


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 10, 2010)

Dean! I did it again! This is almost to easy! I just finished up the spindle register on the 6" back plate since my last post. With the confidence from the first victory the second one was real easy. The final 1.536" diameter is slightly larger than the 1.5355 on the 4" back plate. I was my target as the 1.5355 on the 4'' seemed a bit small (tight) of a clearance compared to my original chuck (1.536").

I coated the face of the spindle register with Prussian Blue and both plates fit up flat on two separate tests of both plates. I got a small tube of this stuff in a box of machinist stuff at a flea market, and remembered reading that it's used to check contact areas between parts, when you mentioned a flat contact between the spindle and back plate it came to mind. It kinda feels like I just finished the first successful test run of a finished engine! :big:

I'm whipped (stress), so I'll pick up where I left off tomorrow or the day after.

If I could drink this would be a good time to crack open a keg of beer and invite all the members of HMEM! ;D

-MB


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## Deanofid (Jan 10, 2010)

Great news on your success, MB! 
You deserve a treat. I'm in the ginger ale crowd, too, but have found that a nice bag of M&M's is a fine reward for a job well done!

Dean


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## zeeprogrammer (Jan 10, 2010)

Metal Butcher  said:
			
		

> this would be a good time to crack open a keg of beer and invite all the members of HMEM! ;D



I'm in! That is what you meant isn't it? I didn't misquote you or anything did I?


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## Powder keg (Jan 10, 2010)

Does PBR come in a keg? If so, I'm in to ;D


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## rake60 (Jan 10, 2010)

Luck?

I call luck changing my 5 month old grandson's diaper and having him 
pee over my shoulder rather than a between the eyes shot! 

Hitting a critical size in a no second chance situation is a combination
of patience and skill. 

Congratulations MB! 
Not on your your luck, but on your skills!

Rick


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## Deanofid (Jan 10, 2010)

rake60  said:
			
		

> Luck?
> 
> I call luck changing my 5 month old grandson's diaper and having him
> pee over my shoulder rather than a between the eyes shot!
> ...



Well said, Rick!

Luck is running blindfold through a dog kennel and getting nothing on your shoes.

DW


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks guys. Your confidence that I have skills (vs luck) is appreciated. :bow:

When I blotch one up we'll call it a 'lack of skill', (vs bad luck). ;D

The next step is to place the chuck mounting holes were they belong. I'm leaning towards making a single transfer screw from a beheaded metric bolt. I could drill and tap a small scrap cylindrical block, split it with a saw so it acts like a collet to hold the bolt while I turn a short point on the end. Then I could mill or file two flats on the point end to install and remove it after marking the spot for the first hole. the second hole would be marked after using a line up bolt in the first hole and so forth.

To bad they didn't provide a drilling template. Seems like you get one with everything these days that requires more than one hole.

Hey! Where are you all at? The keg of PBR is almost empty. And there's quite a few guys and gals just about done emptying out my liquor cabinet. :big:

-MB


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## Deanofid (Jan 11, 2010)

No bolt circle diameter given, MB?

If not, it's fairly easy to measure, since the back of the chuck takes four mounting screws.
Put in two of the screws in holes farthest apart in the back of the chuck.  Measure the distance from out side diameters of the screws, subtract the diameter of one screw, and that's your bolt circle center line.
Halve it for your radius and mark it down.

Put that scribe you have in your tool post, on center height and centered in the spindle bore. Zero your dial, and crank your cross slide over the radius distance.  Run the scribe up to the backing plate, give the spindle a turn (by hand) and you have the bolt circle scribed. 
Put it on the milling machine, center it, and use the mill dial coordinates to spot your four holes. A really easy one with only four holes involved. Ten minute job, and everything's jake!

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 11, 2010)

I got the 4" 4-jaw chuck mounted today. I used the transfer screw method of locating the drilled screw clearance holes in the back plate. It seemed to be an idiot proof way of getting the job done. Dean, thanks for taking the time to show me the method that you use, It's probably a more standard practice method but I felt a little unsure of it. The information you provided will be used on a project in the future. I got the idea of using a transfer screw from the LMS site. After seeing what they look like I just had to try my hand at making one. It offered a simple method that would eliminate the possibility of a mistake that would be hard to correct. Actually impossible would be more accurate.

Luckily I had some M8 bolts in a small box of metric hardware, and was able to make a throw away transfer screw. I chucked up a piece of scrap aluminum rod 1/2" x 1" long and tapped it shallow. I screwed it in till it bottomed out and cut off the excess along with its head. I machined a short length of the tip to a point. and filled two flats to aid in its removal. With a propane torch I heated it cherry red and dipped it into Kasenit and re-heated it before quenching in oil. I didn't 'draw' back the temper and used it as is since only the surface was hardened.

The first one on the left was used before heat treating, and flattened right out on the fist attempt without leaving even a slight 'punch' mark. The one on the right was used to mark all four hole locations. The flattened one on the left was heat treated first and by mistake, dam eye sight again!






After the four holes were drilled the bolts were snugged down. I loosened each one individually about a 1/4 turn. Each one had equal side-to-side play meaning there was no binding between the bolts and back plate. The M8 bolts are .309" in diameter, and the clearance holes were drilled undersize and reamed to .3125. Since its the register on the back plate that positions the chuck, the nearly .004" play in the bolts is just fine.






Since I like the look of protruding 'cap screws' I didn't counter bore for them. They 
do not screw in deep enough for my taste, so I will pick up some longer ones on my day out shopping. The four cylindrical adjusting screw keepers, that go in from the back of the chuck are about a 1/16" below the surface of the recessed back. This concerns me a bit since it will allow the keepers to shift outward reducing their engagement with the adjusting screws. To eliminate this concern four thin disks cut from a sheet of rubber will be glued to them on the back with contact cement.






The chuck sure looks good mounted on my lathe. I'm enjoying this project and will continue with finishing up the two other back plates for the 6" four jaw and the 5" 5-C collet chuck. And I'll also continue posting as the project progresses. 

-MB


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, I'm back to report that the second back plate was finished up without any problems. All that's left to do on the 6" chuck is to de-burr and polish the sharp corners, clean and oil or grease, and add rubber disc's to the back of adjusting screw keepers. The bolts that came with this one seem long enough. This is one massive chuck compared to the 4" 3-jaw I'm used to. I'll probably use the 4" 4-jaw more often than the this 6" that was purchased 'just in case', and due to its reasonable price.







Below is a shot of the lathe showing the size of the 6" chuck. I turned on the lathe to take the chuck on a test spin and it tracks like a pro mounted it. I'm very pleased with the results so far. The toughest one is still ahead, with a lot of needed machining. I think a mask will be needed to avoid breathing in the 'dust' that's created cutting the cast iron. Wow, what a messy and dirty job!

Look at the card board behind the lathe. I didn't remove all the oil when I took the chuck apart for inspection, thinking I would do a thorough job after de-burring. I have a splatter of oil that starts below my waist and ends in my hair! And I just took a shower yesterday! looks like its gonna be two showers this week. ;D 

I was going to ask what type of oil every one uses on their chucks but I think I'll pass! :big:






The difference between the two sizes can be seen below. It looks like a picture of 'father and son'. 






-MB


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## 1hand (Jan 11, 2010)

Great job MB, I still haven't done mine yet. Got big case of the lazies this weekend. Should be wrapping up our winter maintenance this week at work and will be laid off for a couple months. Will tackle mine here the end of the week and maybe get started on a project too.

Matt


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## Deanofid (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't know if you were typing fast, or if I was reading fast, Rick, but it sounds like you're pretty chuffed about the job. You otter be! 

Was a few years back first time I did this, but the job came out very well, and I remember thinking "that's almost like being a machinist, or something".  
It's a satisfying job. You'll be reminded of it every day. Neat, huh?

For chuck oil.. I just wipe a light coat of 30wt on the screws, jaws etc. _Light_ coat, as in barely enough. I don't want to wear any more of it than I have to! Taking a shower runs up the hot water bill!

; )

Good on ya. Have fun.

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 12, 2010)

Finally! All three back plates are finished! Machining the third back plate was miserable compared to the first two from LMS. That one was marked 'India' and was really rough. It was more like cast steel than cast iron. It had remaining scale, and the threaded bore was not concentric with the outer diameter. Fortunately the spindle side face was perpendicular. I machined every surface except that face. And cutting it was really tough. Probably the toughest stuff I'v ever machined including stainless and cold rolled steel. I wiped out the HSS cutter that completed both of the first two plates before I got half way through machining out the threads for the register. It actually ground off a good amount of the cutter before I knew what was happening. I dulled five (5) carbide tool bits before finishing the largest outside diameter. I was able to finish up with a three point index able carbide insert, and all three edges are done. The picture of the chips below was taken at the half way point, and the other half of the chips are on me and the floor. The chips came of burning hot and at times sparks were flying.

If I knew before hand how much work and trouble this "brand" of back plate would be, I would have thrown it out and ordered another 6" one from LMS. They are the 'good stuff' that machines like Durabar round stock. And most of the major machining is already done.

I didn't mean to 'carry on' like a lunatic, and that was the short version, but at least I got it off my chest. :






There was no need to do any lay out or transfer screw method. Just a simple marking with a transfer punch zeroed out on the mill to drill and tap for the three mounting bolts.






I did the quick-and-dirty to drill and tap the holes. I would recommend clamping the work piece down to the milling table. I was very careful to avoid tilting the work piece with the down ward pressure of drilling.

To the left of the tap you can see the remaining scale. To get to the bottom of it I would have had to remove material equal to half the thickness of the register.






I mounted the chuck on the lathe to check the run-out. The body of the chuck shows it out .001". This is very puzzling since the register and the outer diameter of the back plate shows a maximum of .0001" run-out. I checked this several times just to be sure. The bore for the collets shows run-out to be between .00025" and .0003". Not very thrilling figures I'd say for what this chuck cost. It may turn out that this is a work in progress, unless I can be convinced that I should be happy. 






Now the 'real work' begins to clean up the aftermath of this project!
Any volunteers? Cold beer here! :big:

-MB


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## ksouers (Jan 12, 2010)

Is there a lathe hiding somewhere under that mound of chips?  

Just a suggestion, have you tried tapping the chuck into submission with a dead blow? Or is it already the best you can get it?

Otherwise things still look great. Even at .0003 it's about as good as I get with MT3 collets.


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 12, 2010)

ksouers  said:
			
		

> Is there a lathe hiding somewhere under that mound of chips?
> 
> Just a suggestion, have you tried tapping the chuck into submission with a dead blow? Or is it already the best you can get it?
> 
> Otherwise things still look great. Even at .0003 it's about as good as I get with MT3 collets.



Hi Kevin. I haven't tried taking a hammer to it yet. Although after six hours of machining its a tempting idea! ;D

Seriously tho, I thought about it earlier, and since the chuck is a press fit I didn't think it could work. The instruction manual calls for a "push fit" which it is, and all the register surfaces including the outer diameter are between .0000 to .0001" run-out. I haven't tried any collets.

-MB


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## ksouers (Jan 12, 2010)

The only other suggestion would be to rotate it around to the other holes to see if it improves or gets worse.
It just might have a sweet spot.

It's a pain, I know...


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Kevin. Those are two very good ideas you presented and one of them or both should work.
For the moment I need to back away for a bit, and consider any and all information that's posted by members that have and use a collet chuck. 

Its just boggles my mind that the backing plate runs true proving at least at the moment that the collet chuck may be the culprit.

Its a Bison brand chuck....Boggles my mind.

-MB


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## Powder keg (Jan 12, 2010)

Could there be a burr on one of the taped holes in the back plate? Sometimes if the corner is to square on the chuck, it might hit the corner of the pilot on the back plate. Also, .0003 TIR isn't bad. Do you have any projects that HAVE to be that close? I know. You think like me. "Aim small, miss small"


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 12, 2010)

Powder keg  said:
			
		

> Could there be a burr on one of the taped holes in the back plate? Sometimes if the corner is to square on the chuck, it might hit the corner of the pilot on the back plate. Also, .0003 TIR isn't bad. Do you have any projects that HAVE to be that close? I know. You think like me. "Aim small, miss small"



They stepped out the back side of the bolt holes on the chuck to compensate for this type of problem. However I took a light cut after drilling and taping just to be sure.

I would like to be able to machine all the important parts of my builds concentric to within .0001". 

That would be my reason for using a collet chuck. I thought that .0001" or less was the accuracy a collet chuck would offer.

-MB


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 12, 2010)

Good news all, I found the problem. The chuck accuracy readings are now about .0001".

I noticed the the readings were eratic and didn't make sense. I cleaned the taper with lacquer thinner and put a thin coat of oil on it and now the reading is much better. compounding the high original readings of between .00025 and .0003 is the small ball on the indicator and the unstable set up. The ball was catching on a thin unknown residue, and the ground surface which may have added a sort of stick-slip climb to the ball end of the indicator on the inner radius. My stop start way of rotating the chuck with one hand became another additional factor that could have been causing or adding to the 'climb'.

I now feel much better about the chuck and its ridicules price, but now I'm concerned that the collet quality I have may become another issue. :

When will it end. "Honey... I need to buy some collets." ;D

-MB


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## rake60 (Jan 12, 2010)

Nice work MB!

Your run out tests are very impressive.
I human hair varies from .0015 to .002 inches in diameter.
Coming from a working shop environment, I have been told that certain red hairs 
are even finer than that. I can neither prove nor disprove that claim.
At any rate, if a hair's width will make a difference in a hobby machined fit, 
other than a bearing fit, I'm in trouble here! 

If you can throw a hair through the gap caused by a chuck error, that is
a bad thing.

Congratulations on the chuck mountings and the final run out results!

There was no doubt in my mind that you would be able to get it that close.

Rick


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## Deanofid (Jan 12, 2010)

Good going, MB. I knew you would do well at this.

I can't imagine what there would be on any model you've built that would need being made to a tenth of a thou, but if you've got it, great! Now there's no way around taking all the blame yourself! ; )

Keep having fun.

Dean


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 13, 2010)

Deanofid  said:
			
		

> Good going, MB. I knew you would do well at this.
> 
> I can't imagine what there would be on any model you've built that would need being made to a tenth of a thou, but if you've got it, great! Now there's no way around taking all the blame yourself! ; )
> 
> ...



It'll come in handy by creating a near zero starting point. It doesn't necessarily mean my parts must or will be be machined within a .0001" tolerance. It just means that I'm looking for an easier way to make parts that are a little better than in the past using my one and only, inaccurate 4" 3 jaw chuck. The packing nuts on a piston rod are a good example were a hexagonal collet will simplify making a good fitting part. Drilling and threading a piston for a captive rod can cause a problem if its off a bit. Turning a concentric step on a precising ground rod for a crank disc becomes less of a hit miss proposition. A collet can aid in turning a concentric cylindrical spigot on square stock with the use of a square collet. 

Do ya see me point. "Honey" did. :big:

-MB


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 14, 2010)

It didn't take long for my first need and use of the 5C collet chuck. I used it to reduce the length of a 5/8" bushing down to a 1/2".

A few previos attempts at this on other projects ended with the cutter grabbing the crumbly slithered bronze bushing material and crushing it in the 3-jaw chuck.

-MB ;D


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 16, 2010)

Good news for any one thinking about buying one of these inexpensive 4-jaw independent chuck from one of the supplier links I posted earlier on this thread.

The jaws tighten up smooth enough, and surprisingly well. I was able to 'dial in' a workpiece to within .0002" (that's tenths!) within a few minutes! I'm flabbergasted!

The 'Shars' medallion fell of one chuck and the other one was missing, big deal who cares. The residual glue that held them on came right off with my finger nail. I imagine their falling off before being packed for shipment at the factory. I was going to machine a thin brass disc with my initials to fill in the machined recess until an idea struck. I'm taking 'Old Abe' along for a ride on my machining adventures. :big:

I'm thrilled with the performance of this chuck, and glad I bought it. 






-MB


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## gbritnell (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi Rick, congratulations on your fit with the 5c chuck. Bison tools are usually pretty decent. I bought a chuck, (import from Ebay) and got all my numbers within about .0005, backing plate and collet taper but each collet that I mount in it varies on accuracy. There's probably a difference between 'good' collets and 'cheap' collets but I'm not going to spend the extra money to find out. My worst collet is probably out a tick over .001 so I can live with that. The only way to have it 'dead on' is to buy a 5c set true chuck and I don't even want to go there. 
As a side note, I enjoyed talking machining with you the previous week. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you this past week, too many things came up. I'll give you a call this coming week and we can set something up for me to see your shop.
George


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## Metal Butcher (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi George.I have a partial set of inexpensive collets that will have to do for the time being and subject to checking their accuracy. I doubt that I'll consider replacing any unless there is a real bad one. I looked at the set-true Bison and don't feel the need due to its high cost. Kind of the 'Pearls Before Swine" thing for a rookie of my caliber. I really enjoyed visiting your shop last week and seeing your vast and amazing collection of work. It was overwhelming to say the least. No need to apologize, I realize your plate is very full. When you feel a need to break away and visit just give me a call.

-MB


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## D0ZX (Nov 21, 2010)

MB
How's that 6" 4 jaw chuck holding up for you? Any problems?


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## Metal Butcher (Nov 21, 2010)

D0ZX  said:
			
		

> MB
> How's that 6" 4 jaw chuck holding up for you? Any problems?



So far so good. No problems to report. I wish I could afford to spend $300 to $400 more and have the nice looking Bison brand chucks in my shop, but then the two chucks would add up to the cost of my 9x20 lathe. Since each jaw is adjusted independently, accuracy concerns are not a factor as far as I'm concerned. The surface finish inside and out is about average import quality, a non issue as far as I'm concerned. The chuck's do what their supposed to do, and that was the objective. If you find another reasonably priced brand or source please post your findings.

The ones I have are Shars brand available on E-Bay, and direct from CDCO.

-MB


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## D0ZX (Nov 25, 2010)

Thank's for the follow up, I'll get one on the way. I would like a couple of Bison's myself.. NOT gonna happen.


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