# Who makes the best small drill bits?



## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 15, 2018)

Hello Everyone,

Lately I have been plagued by poor quality smaller drill bits. They either crumble, instantly dull, or break at the worst times.

Who makes the finest quality smaller, say one to three millimetre, HSS drill bits in the U.K.?

Thanks’
Jenny


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## Dr Jo (Dec 15, 2018)

It depends....

"Made in the UK" - I don't think even Dormer are made in the UK any more.

"Finest" - what are you looking to drill? Carbide is better for some materials. HSS for others, four facet if you can get them.

How much do you want to spend?

Jo


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 15, 2018)

I’m so sick of junk bits that money is not important. I’m looking for high quality.


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## Dr Jo (Dec 15, 2018)

Dormer drill are easy enough to find. I also have some nice German HSS drill bits.

3.0 is a standard PCD drill size and you will find the carbide ones are useful

Jo


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## Jasonb (Dec 15, 2018)

Dormer A012 split points are what I mostly use, for common sizes I prefer the Ao22 stub length ones. MSC UK usually have them at about 60% less then list look at the minthly sales flyer bottom left https://www.mscdirect.co.uk/cgi/insrhm.

Guhring are not too bad either.

How is your S&P going?


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## el gringo (Dec 15, 2018)

What do you folks in the UK  do about numbered drills? I use Hanson that I bought years ago when they were 'Hansen'.


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## Herbiev (Dec 15, 2018)

I use Sutton tools. Great drill bits.


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## rlukens (Dec 15, 2018)

I can't comment on drill quality, I buy whatever. I can say that most of the smaller drills are poorly sharpened... no relief. A light touch on my bench grinder makes a world of difference.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 15, 2018)

Thank you everyone for the great information, please keep it comming, as I value the opinions of other model engineers. 

What I am finding is that the type available locally are made from poor materials and/or have poor geometry. This is especially true for smaller sizes. 

I do not have any issues with larger sizes say 4mm and up, as I can easily reshape them.  Rather it is those smaller odd sizes that one uses for tapping that I am having difficulty with. Twice in the last few months I have had to trash a complicated bit of machining due to broken bits. Today I came close to loosing two days worth of work, i was just lucky that i was able to extract it. I just hate wasting so many hours of effort due to a poorly engineered bit of tooling..

BTW - I picked up a half dozen nice large second hand  heavy non-ferrous laps, from of all places, a gem and mineral show. they are impregnated with various grits of diamond ranging from 600 to 12,000 grit that are ecxellent for putting new edges on carbide or HSS tooling. They are almost impossible to damage as long as you keep them wet. 

Thanks again,
Jenny


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## petertha (Dec 15, 2018)

In the typical numbered sets I've had good luck with reputable HSS grinders like Precision Twist USA. In aluminum, particularly deeper than recommended depth : diameter ratio, I have found the 'specialty' drills like Walter parabolic flute do a better job vacating chips. For teeny stuff I have had good luck with these Asian carbide drills, some people call them circuitboard drills but not sure that's all they do. Just watch out for factory rejects or re-sharpened, some sellers like to play tricky games.

Some typical issues with the teeny drills are

1) not holding them concentrically as a function of the chuck or collet runout. If chuck TIR is say 0.002", that represents 6.4% on a 1/32" drill. That's getting up there. I was breaking carbide center drills in my lathe until I finally realized my tailstock was contributing to this problem. You might have to look at a good quality chuck if this is an issue. Also some chuck may have varying TIR depending on what diameter they are gripping. Good chucks typically don't but cost $$

2) when you work out the rpms on small diameter drills on SFPM & material etc. they get very high. That explains the turbine sound at the dentist office which can be in tens or hundred K rpms. So our mills & drills max out long before this. I don't have a good answer on this one. Some folks have other techniques like pecking & get the job done. I always had this idea of chucking a homebrew high speed motor + collet assembly in the mill (and just leave the rotation off). There are plenty of inexpensive, high quality, high KV brushless motors in the RC world with that would spin at 50K rpm from DC power source & easily handle the thrust duty. The trick is marrying the collet to the shaft accuratley. There are some nice CNC spindle motors with integral ER collets out of Asia but the motor cans get big, so you would have to hang it off to the side of the quill with a bracket arm which I have seen done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_drill

3) and of course everyone has their own cutting fluid recommendations so I wont get into that other than to say something should be used & is beneficial.
#1 & #2 trump #3 in my opinion.


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## petertha (Dec 15, 2018)

oops forgot the 'circuit board' drills


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## petertha (Dec 15, 2018)

Jennifer Edwards said:


> BTW - I picked up a half dozen nice large second hand  heavy non-ferrous laps, from of all places, a gem and mineral show. they are impregnated with various grits of diamond ranging from 600 to 12,000 grit that are ecxellent for putting new edges on carbide or HSS tooling. They are almost impossible to damage as long as you keep them wet.
> Jenny



Can you show a pic? Do you mean a rectangular abrasive stick, or round as in lapping a hole?


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## Cogsy (Dec 15, 2018)

As an aside, are you aware of the Alum trick with non-ferrous parts? It can take a long time, especially for a small diameter hole, but eventually the broken bit or tap can be dissolved away. If you have a complex part you just don't want to scrap it can be a life saver.


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## petertha (Dec 15, 2018)

Cogsy said:


> As an aside, are you aware of the Alum trick with non-ferrous parts? It can take a long time, especially for a small diameter hole, but eventually the broken bit or tap can be dissolved away.



Maybe... maybe not.

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/broken-tap-in-aluminum-cranckase.26470/


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## Jasonb (Dec 16, 2018)

el gringo said:


> What do you folks in the UK  do about numbered drills? I use Hanson that I bought years ago when they were 'Hansen'.



That's easy, I never use them having metric bits in 0.1mm increments from o.3mm to 10mm there is no real need for them or letter drills.


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## XD351 (Dec 16, 2018)

Same here , i think many get too mixed up and forget that we are making models - not working for NASA ! I have letter and number drill sets that i rarely use , i just don't get to wound up for a few thousands for 90% of the threads i need to tap its just not worth it . 60% thread engagement is good enough for most of what we do with the exception of things like head and big end bolts where i look for 75% engagement .


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## skyline1 (Dec 16, 2018)

Yes these Chinese carbide minidrills are really quite good I have many of them and use them for all sorts of stuff not just their suggested purpose of PCB production 

It has been mentioned that they need high RPM, I run mine at 12000 in a little Chinese gantry router and even this is a bit slow for the smaller ones. 

They will also work well in a Dremel type drill with a stand but are too brittle to be used freehand probably.

The miniature milling cutters are good too available in many sizes and profiles for very little cost and special ones for particular materials (aluminium etc)

I think attaching a small high speed motor head to the mill is a great idea you get the best of both worlds the rigidity of the mill and high speed.


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## Chiptosser (Dec 16, 2018)

You should have good resources there in the UK to Guhring drills, they are very good quality.

You should have access to a number of good quality brands.  

Find a machine shop, give them a call and ask them what is available in your area. 

Remember, those small drills get spun up a lot faster then 3mm and up.


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## olympic (Dec 16, 2018)

skyline1 said:


> Yes these Chinese carbide minidrills are really quite good I have many of them and use them for all sorts of stuff not just their suggested purpose of PCB production
> 
> It has been mentioned that they need high RPM, I run mine at 12000 in a little Chinese gantry router and even this is a bit slow for the smaller ones.




I use a Cameron precision drill press that I found at a yard sale. Maximum RPM IS 30,000.


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## Nick Hulme (Dec 16, 2018)

I buy from a commercial tooling supplier who supplies machine shops, they don't carry anything but good quality.


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## kitson (Dec 16, 2018)

Jennifer Edwards said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Lately I have been plagued by poor quality smaller drill bits. They either crumble, instantly dull, or break at the worst times.
> 
> ...


Visit Drill Service site Horley they have been in business 45 years and supply the commercial trade their products can be viewed on line to download not cheap but the best quality


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 16, 2018)

Iwill check them out. I have alo fount "CUTWELL" who specialize in all sorts of drilling and turning bits. You can find them at: https://www.cutwel.co.uk/


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## Wizard69 (Dec 30, 2018)

Jenny I feel your pain.  Here in the USA we went through a couple of drill suppliers (at work) that couldn’t ship drills that actually would drill a hole.  This was for standard fractional size drills supposedly produced in the USA.    I suspect that some of these manufactures believe the drill will be sharpened anyways so why bother with a proper edge.   Whatever the case finding proper drill bits does seem to be far more difficult than in the pass. 



Jennifer Edwards said:


> Thank you everyone for the great information, please keep it comming, as I value the opinions of other model engineers.


Larger drill bits can be sharpened free hand but that is next to impossible  with the sizes you are talking about.   Frankly I believe the smaller drills require more frequent sharpening to you with buy a lot or sharpen yourself.  

There was a web site that covered drill sharpening in depth, the link to which escapes me.  However there was documented there a small hand held fixture to aid in hand sharpening of very small drill bits ask ally a device that rolls over a stone to put an edge on the drill.  That might sound like a lot of work but there is little material to remove.  


> What I am finding is that the type available locally are made from poor materials and/or have poor geometry. This is especially true for smaller sizes.


The poor materials is a real challenge.  I’m not sure how to address it other that to say you need to start looking at specialist suppliers to industry.  

Geometry is another issue as that is often altered for the industry being supplied.   You also have the problem of simply bad geometry.  


> I do not have any issues with larger sizes say 4mm and up, as I can easily reshape them.  Rather it is those smaller odd sizes that one uses for tapping that I am having difficulty with. Twice in the last few months I have had to trash a complicated bit of machining due to broken bits.


That does suck.  

One of the best guards against breakage is a sensitive drill press or mechanism.  You really need to be able to feel what is going on.   Combine that with peck drilling and you can reduce problems greatly. 

The problem with peck drilling is that it is tedious as you will want to employ 100% cutter withdrawal about ever half diameter in depth you go.  Even a half diameter is a lot for very small drill bits.  Remember there isn’t much room for swarf and jammed swarf will break a drill bit quick.  


> Today I came close to loosing two days worth of work, i was just lucky that i was able to extract it. I just hate wasting so many hours of effort due to a poorly engineered bit of tooling..


It has happened to all of us.  

Depending upon what you are drilling you may want to consider other tech beyond standard twist drills.  Spade drills for example have their uses.  Stub length or spotting drills may be more reliable too.  


> BTW - I picked up a half dozen nice large second hand  heavy non-ferrous laps, from of all places, a gem and mineral show. they are impregnated with various grits of diamond ranging from 600 to 12,000 grit that are ecxellent for putting new edges on carbide or HSS tooling. They are almost impossible to damage as long as you keep them wet.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Jenny



Some suppliers of small stuff:  

Www.micro100.com
Www.harveytool.com
Www.pmtnow.com
Www.microcutusa.com
Www.robbjack.com
Www.richardsmicrotool.com. 

These companies popped up after a quick search.  Frankly I’m only familiar with Micro100 and Harvey.   I believe everything supplied by these manufactures is carbide.   This means high spindle speeds and you still have the risk of breakage.    Also this list is barely a start there are hundreds of tool manufactures in the USA, then there is Germany and Japan.  

The cost of the tooling from the above suppliers maybe shocking.  Then again there aren’t too many places to get drill bits that are 0.0020” in diameter.   A good portion of what these companies offer is made in the USA. 

I actually find it hard to believe that there are no miniature tool manufactures in Britain.   I’d look around a bit.


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## Jennifer Edwards (Dec 31, 2018)

Wiz,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. Yes I always sharpen a drill before I use it, changing the cutting angle and clearance to what I feel is about right for whatever material I intend to drill. As you have pointed out it is the smaller sizes that I am having issues with. I simply cannot find wheels for my grinder that have sharp enough corners. I have been using diamond laps intended for lapidary work with some success,
I also use a device I call a “quill”, not sure of the proper name, it has a small Jacobs chuck on it that slides up and down with s knurled disk on a bearing, I can apply as much of as little downward force as I feel is needed.
In fact the feedback is great, I can  tell when the bit snaps off so much more quickly! 
It is definitely a material matter. I think that either the Steel makers, the buyers at the tool company, or both are cutting corners. Most likely due to economic pressure from the Easten tool suppliers. Unfortunately it is the end user who suffers.
I miss the days of just walking to the tool crib and just telling the guy what I require and having it appear.

Thanks again,
Jen


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## Wizard69 (Dec 31, 2018)

Jen.  

I feel your pain we are seeing similar problems with quality control in the USA.   You either pay big bucks or gamble.  A couple of years ago I purchased a small set of Silver & Demming drills and had one that chipped the cutting edge way too easy.  Went to put a new edge on it and got little black spots on the fresh grind.  The steel was contaminated with something.   Kept grinding it back and more of the blotches showed up.  Today the least I was disappointed that the name brand was willing to put their name on the cutter.  At work we have had similar problems with drills simply not sharpened correctly right out of the box.  

We can still get good quality here but you do end up paying for it.  For some reason I was thinking that MSC had a branch in the UK, you might want to check with them if so.  They are a large distributor to industry in the USA but sell to individuals freely.  In the end I suspect that you will need to find a large distributor to industry to get a wide selection of manufactures.  

I’m actually shocked that such a simple cutter has become so hard and expensive to find in high quality variants.


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## goldstar31 (Dec 31, 2018)

My New Years Revolution
I'm seriously in need of a 'good throw out' of all sorts of drills, some rubbish, some blunt and some short of the proper sizes in sets.
Following the comments above, I googled 'Cromwell Tools' as they have an outlet  in Gateshead, fairly near my home. Again, When I got my old Clarkson, I got the recommended wheels from them 'off the shelf'- and was happy with the quality

Following the same tack, they seem to have a wide choice of taps.

This  is not going to be cheap having been cluttered with stuff that is , politely, not the best.

Any comments please from  UK users, please?

Norman


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## DJP (Dec 31, 2018)

I seldom need to buy new cutting tools after purchasing a couple of machinist's tool boxes at estate sales. These boxes come filled with drills, dies, inserts and taps from the top manufacturers of that time and the quality doesn't change while they are in being stored. 

For my hobby needs I prefer old tooling even if I need to sharpen some of it.   My small drills come in jobber envelopes with labels...Osborn-Mushet (Sheffield), Cleveland (Peterhead, Scotland), Malcus SKF, Butterfield/Union (Canada) and Marsh (Sheffield) to list a few.

Estate sales are my preferred source and usually there are measurement tools also in the boxes.

An observation for your consideration.


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## lennardhme (Dec 31, 2018)

Hi,
just a few things to consider from an old instrument maker.....
Bits up to 1mm I buy in lots of 10 from China. Nothing wrong with them. When they go blunt I throw them out. Its extremely rare that I break a small bit.
To drill small holes you need very high speeds. @  6k is good, & I know not much home machinery does that. Maybe look at a vfd unit - it can be moved from one machine to another.
Look for long shank bits - they can flex if you get a bit too aggressive; a short shank bit has nowhere to go if it jams, clogs with swarf  etc.
Its more work, but try rotating the workpiece rather than the drill bit. The bit can be hand held loosely in a chuck, or as I prefer, multigrips. Centripedal force will ensure the hole is drilled centrally & you can still use the pecking technique.
Dont persevere with a partially blunt bit.
Good luck.
cheers,
Lennard.


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## Peter_A_Lawrence (Dec 31, 2018)

stub-length split-point high-speed-cobalt, from Precision Twist Drills is all I use (unless I need to go deeper with a jobber length, but only after starting with a stub-length).   Drill by pecking, 1-diameter at a time, and removing the drill and re-filling the hole with Tap-Magic cutting fluid each time.  all learned the hard way.  the only material this doesn't work for is 304-stainless, in which case no drill will last more than a couple holes, so if you ever have to drill 304 buy a 10-pack of drills before you start, ditto for tapping 304, avoid it if at all possible.


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## maybach_man (Jan 1, 2019)

You can try Tracy tools .. think they are in Cornwall... all types of drill and taps and bits


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## Hels (Jan 1, 2019)

Try Presto Drill bits from RDG Tools.


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## Hels (Jan 1, 2019)

Forgot to add Presto are a long standing British Company based in Sheffield. The Heritage page of their website is worth a read.


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## Herbiev (Jan 1, 2019)

I find Sutton tools have the best drills


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## Cogsy (Jan 1, 2019)

+1 for Sutton but stay away from the 'Frost by Sutton' as they're horrible and just trading on the Sutton name.

Edit to add: For tiny bits I took a huge gamble and bought a cheap Chinese set from 0.5mm to 2.5mm in 0.1mm steps. It came in a cheap plastic box with about 20 bits per size and cost something silly like $20. I mic'd up each bit and they were the size they were marked as and so far they've worked perfectly. I was completely surprised and it shows you can get lucky sometimes.


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## justisla (Jan 2, 2019)

I had to bolt some 3mm steel sheet paneling for my traction engine to 10mm square in the angles. I first drilled both 3mm & the bar for 3mm tap ( 2.56 I think) then enlarged the hole in the plate to 3mm
There was 196 holes & I did not break a single drill bit( I only used 2 smaller & one larger & did not sharpen any)--- although I did break a tap when my wife came in the shed & went "boo". I was NOT a happy bunny
The drills were Osbourne
I later drilled 60 holes in 10mm th 316 stainless 6mm diam with an osbourne drill & it went through like butter. If I could get a set then I certainly would do so


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## stanstocker (Jan 29, 2019)

Jennifer Edwards said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Lately I have been plagued by poor quality smaller drill bits. They either crumble, instantly dull, or break at the worst times.
> 
> ...


Sorry to be responding so late, just going through the postings on a cold wet day...  In the clock shop I've found straight flute solid carbide bits to be very reliable.  In the US they are available from MA Ford and several others.  Old steels in tall case clocks often have inclusions and hard spots, so even good name brand twist bits are subject to snagging or worse.

Best of luck,Stan


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## kwoodhands (Jan 30, 2019)

Small drills can be sharpened with a hand held tool that I made from the "Bedside Machinist" by Guy Latrobe. This tool is easily made . Intended to sharpen drills from 1/8" to # 60. This tool worked so well I made another to sharpen #1 drills to about # 40. I use a small diamond plate about 2"x3" for the hone. The same tool is in another book by Harold Hall. 
mike


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## Jennifer Edwards (Jan 30, 2019)

stanstocker said:


> Sorry to be responding so late, just going through the postings on a cold wet day...  In the clock shop I've found straight flute solid carbide bits to be very reliable.  In the US they are available from MA Ford and several others.  Old steels in tall case clocks often have inclusions and hard spots, so even good name brand twist bits are subject to snagging or worse.
> 
> Best of luck,Stan



Thank you Stan


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## Jennifer Edwards (Jan 30, 2019)

kwoodhands said:


> Small drills can be sharpened with a hand held tool that I made from the "Bedside Machinist" by Guy Latrobe. This tool is easily made . Intended to sharpen drills from 1/8" to # 60. This tool worked so well I made another to sharpen #1 drills to about # 40. I use a small diamond plate about 2"x3" for the hone. The same tool is in another book by Harold Hall.
> mike



I also use a diamond lap to sharpen smaller drill bits and milling tools.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a set of ten inch in diameter diamond flat laps from 325 - 12,500 grit from the estate sale of a lapidary,

Whilst made for gem cutting they are awesome for sharpening the edges of all sorts of tooling. 

I made a simple bushing for the hole in the centre, and set them on an old phonograph table. They are heavy enough that once turning have sufficient inirtia to cut small tooling. 

The diamond is embedded right to the nice square edges so cutting clearance is easy as well.


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## Apprentice707 (Jan 30, 2019)

Hello Jenny, 
You may laugh at this but I bought a set of number drills from Harbor Freight some years ago when visiting Florida. I have had few problems and have only had to replace 2 I broke by misuse. It is important to keep them sharp and lubricated. I bought the replacements from Chronos and have found them to be good. You pays your money and takes your chance.
Regards


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## raildr (Jan 30, 2019)

another trick is peck drilling. I have not any machining  in a while, so bear with me. Set the quill for a very shallow cut, like .01, advance quill, another .01. I know it's slow but I have never broke a tiny drill bit. I should mention the chuck nets to be dead on, if possible.


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## DJP (Jan 30, 2019)

Just curious if anyone has tried a round nose milling cutter as a drill bit for brass? From the angles of sharpening it looks like it might work and any chips will be extracted quickly. They come is solid carbide too.


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## DJP (Jan 30, 2019)

Forget the curiosity. I tried it and not a big improvement.


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## raildr (Feb 26, 2019)

best I have seen on small holes...........


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## Hopper (Feb 26, 2019)

I've had very good service from small drill bits from Tracy Tools in the UK. Reasonably priced too.


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## kquiggle (Feb 27, 2019)

Little Machine Shop sells a nice "sensitive drill feed" - also available from some of the other usual places if you shop around. Also useful for very small taps.


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## mayhugh1 (Feb 27, 2019)

I don't know how they stack up with respect to the other sources mentioned, but I've been happy with these:

https://www.micromark.com/search?keywords=Drill bits

Terry


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## skyline1 (Feb 28, 2019)

I found these from banggood in china 

https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-1...ainless-Steel-Aluminium-Copper-p-1096838.html
https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-1...ainless-Steel-Aluminium-Copper-p-1096838.html
I thought more Chinese rubbish and didn't hold out much hope till I tried them

I was very pleasantly surprised, in fact they were some of the best drills I had ever used (especially at about £6.50 a set)

I think they are available in smaller sizes but for very small ones (less than 1mm) I tend to use solid carbide drills

Best Regards Mark


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