# The "Weeble", wobbles into being.



## Captain Jerry (Dec 8, 2008)

Here is a new engine that I am working on. It is almost complete but since there are mods that I will add, I'll call it a work in progress. This is a four cylinder, wobble plate engine of my own design but leans heavily on all previous designs for this type of engine. There are some innovations that I have not seen elsewhere but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been done before. This engine is more of a demonstration of principle than anything. 

I don't have the skills or equipment to produce accurate scale models of historic engines so I just build little machines. One of the things that I wanted to achieve was a clean and uncluttered appearance so routing the air passages through the head plate was critical. I didn't want a lot of copper tubes with visible solder joints to distract from the simplicity of the design.

I am drawn to this type of engine due to the simple but slightly exotic mechanism. They belong to a class of engines called axial engines or barrel engines and they are similar but quite different from swash plate engines. They offer some challenges but are easily within the reach of an beginner. For the concepts involved and for some historic predecessors here is a link to check out.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC.htm#smb


here are some pics of the parts before final assembly:

































The engine is assembled and ready for testing but its too late in the evening to run the compressor so if I get some shop time tomorrow we will give it a go and I'll shoot some video.

Regards to all

Jerry


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## dsquire (Dec 8, 2008)

Jerry :bow: :bow:

Definitely a different looking engine. I will be watching for the video when you get it running tomorrow later today. Good luck with getting it tuned in on start up.

Cheers 

Don


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## b.lindsey (Dec 8, 2008)

Its looking great Jerry and I too like the unique nature of the mechanism. Looking forward to the video!!

Well done!!!

Bill


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## rleete (Dec 8, 2008)

I like it. Tell us more about the construction and particularly the innovations you made.


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## BobWarfield (Dec 8, 2008)

What a fascinating and offbeat engine!

Best,

BW


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Y'all

I have the Weeble ready to run but before I do I feel the need to preach to the choir. The many comments on Phil's excellent build of the twin mill engine tells me that we all hear the same question. After trying to answer it in a manner that will satisfy the questioner so many times, I have changed my approach.

When asked " What's it gonna do?", my answer is "It's already doing it." It's funny how many people seem to get it. 

As a sailor, I am used to being looked at strangely. When friends ask me why I sail to the Bahamas every winter, when You can get a plane out of Miami and be there in 30 minutes, the answer is, "The trip is the destination." And when the question is "How many nights can you sit in the cockpit with a rum drink and just stare at the sky", my answer is "I don't know yet."

Back to engines.

I went to test the "Weeble" and realized that I hadn't gotten around to designing a base for it. I couldn't wait to see if it would run so I decided to go ahead without a base. Now that I have done that, the number of ideas that come up for the proper base is more than I want to deal with. Suggestions respectfully requested!!!

It runs!! It surprised me how easily it runs. A single rotary valve controls pressure and exhaust timing to all cylinders. There is no eccentric or cam to deal with. The only timing issue is the position of the web on the shaft. I decided to leave the shaft full round until I was satisfied with performance before milling a flat for the set screw. I set it up by eye for the test and locked the set screw in position on the round. When I find the optimum setting, I will mill a flat. I will also mill a flat 180 degrees from that location so that the rotation can be easily changed fro CW to CCW.

The engine is presently assembled with no o-rings on the piston. Better piston sealing is a future improvement. I squirted a liberal dose of oil into each of the cylinders and gave the shaft a couple of turns to distribute the oil and opened the air valve. I ran. With four cylinders, it runs very smoothly. I reduced the air pressure and it slowed, I opened the throttle and it revved smoothly. I reduced speed to a minimum and it came to a stop with a stop at about 20 PSI with a hiss of escaping air. I little manual help and it would make a few revs and come to a stop at the same position. Inspection showed air and oil escaping at the cylinder/head plate junction on one of the cylinders. I little tightening on the cylinder and now it runs at lower speeds, but as you can see in the video it begins to run a little rough. There could be lots of reasons for this but I suspect that the piston fit in one of the cylinders is a little sloppy. For now I'm going just going to run it and see how it does with a few hours.

I wanted to get the vids up tonight since my shop time is going to be curtailed for the next few weeks. Lights to hang, shopping to do, family coming. I'll check in when I can but I probably wont get much time to fiddle with it.

"Weeble wobbles but it don't fall down."



















Merry Christmas to all
Jerry


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## cfellows (Dec 8, 2008)

Nice work, Jerry! Nice looking engine and a good runner!

Chuck


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## ksouers (Dec 8, 2008)

Jerry,
Congratulations on a runner!

That has an interesting motion. Kinda looks like a grasshopper trying to run away  


Kevin


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## Brass_Machine (Dec 8, 2008)

That's pretty cool!

Eric


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## dsquire (Dec 8, 2008)

Jerry

Very nice engine. It's different but that's why it is so nice. Glad that you shared it with us. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers 

Don


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## Maryak (Dec 9, 2008)

CJ,

That's marvelous and such an unusual yet balanced motion. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.

Congratulations, I could watch it for hours. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







Best Regards
Bob


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## stevehuckss396 (Dec 9, 2008)

Captain Jerry  said:
			
		

> When asked " What's it gonna do?", my answer is "It's already doing it." It's funny how many people seem to get it.
> 
> when the question is "How many nights can you sit in the cockpit with a rum drink and just stare at the sky", my answer is "I don't know yet."



I often get asked are the engines I build going to do anything. All the engines I have made do something. For me it's not about what an engine will do after it's done. It's about what it's doing while im building all the parts. 

The answer to "how many nights" for me would be "all of them".

Thats why I go to the names show and check in at websites like this, to hang out with and talk to the people who "get it"

Steve


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## SignalFailure (Dec 9, 2008)

Nice one Jerry, I really like that. Have you managed (or tried) to get it running on less than 20psi yet? I've made two rotary valve engines and neither will run at low (<10psi) pressure 

(Looking at photo No 5 at the top of the thread I'm guessing that you dropped that flywheel at some point? My current project's cylinder has a similar floor-induced dent on the edge!)

Great work!


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## rake60 (Dec 9, 2008)

Looks Great Jerry! 

Congrats on the runner!!!

Rick


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## Philjoe5 (Dec 9, 2008)

Hats off to you Jerry for trying something different. Nice engine and it runs nicely. I get it!! ;D  Enjoy it :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers,
Phil


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm really tickled. ;D

It runs way better than I had hoped, without a lot of tinkering. After running it for about 30 minutes, when the oil was good and black, I disassembled it, washed it down with hotwater and detergent and put it back together and started it up again with fresh oil. It runs well down to about 15 PSI. When it stops tuning, there is some air leak but if I help it over the dead spot, it will make a full rev before coming to a stop. With four cylinders it should be able to tick over like a twin cylinder double acting mill engine with a power stroke every 90 degrees. Except for the short stroke. With 17/32 bore and 17/32 stroke, it is more of a high speed engine. Still, I would like it to run on less air. I would like it to run on my breath alone, but at my age, I don't like to build up that much internal pressure. 

I can think of five reasons that it doesn't. Piston/cylinder clearance (loose), clearance (tight), cylinder/head leak (no gasket yet), friction or poor sealing at the valve or all of the above. Oiled paper head gaskets are the first and easiest adjustment. I don't want to use locktight on the cylinder mounting so that I can easily replace a cylinder. 

Piston/cylinder clearance is a bit different on this engine. Then piston and rod are one piece, no wrist pin and the piston length is very short. It is only 1/4" long and with no o-ring, sealing is touchy. 

Friction may come from a a too tight fit somewhere. There are 6 ball joints in this engine with 3/16dia. steel balls running in brass sockets. With no ball turning device, I produced them by filing to a template and testing with a tube gauge. These joints do not articulate at anywhere near the speed of a piston or shaft so run-in make take a little longer. 

Rotary valves have a bad reputation, justly deserved. Air leaks around the shaft and can and will be addressed with adjustable packing glands at the shaft ends. The real problem is bleed over between the pressure and the exhaust ports on the rotary shaft. I have a design in mind and on paper but I don't think that I can execute it on a 1/4" valve shaft. If would require a 5/16" o-ring with a 1/32" thickness. I have not been able to find one like that. On a 3/8" shaft, a 1/16" o-ring might work but still seems to require a lathe or mill with CNC. Having neither, I am at a dead end. I am still thinking about it.

I have a v-4 with dual overhead rotary valves that would seem to solve the problem by having the pressure and exhaust valves in separate bores so there can be no bleed over. It was about 50% complete last year when it got shelved. It is now third in line for attention now. That design is not possible on this engine. One shaft only.

If you are still interested I rotary valves, I may be able to get some drawings together that I have done. 

For now, I am going to work on the other fixes. I expect improved performance.

As to the flywheel, I didn't drop it on the floor. That's where it lived it's former life. Until a few years ago, it was a hardworking and well respected caster providing support to an outfeed table from my tablesaw. When I retired, it was "downsized" along with a lot of other equipment and languished in a junkbox waiting for an opportunity to serve. I have cleaned it up to serviceable condition but it is way hard and I had difficulty cutting it.

Thanks to all for the kind comments. Complements from this knowledgeable and talented group is surprising and encouraging.

Jerry


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## rleete (Dec 9, 2008)

Instead of an o-ring for sealing the rotary valve, maybe a couple of teflon or delrin piston rings?


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't know which material would be best. One or the other might work out better. The problem is not the material, it is the position. If the valve is controlling both pressure air and exhaust through a single passage to the cylinder, then the ports are in the same plane, perpendicular to the center line of the shaft. The seal must provide a seal between these ports.

Here is a quick and dirty sketch of what I am thinking. Cutting the grove for the diagonal o-ring is beyond me.

If the drawing doesn't show up I'll repost.

Jerry 

View attachment Rotary Valve Sealing.pdf


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## Divided He ad (Dec 12, 2008)

Hello Jerry, we haven't met yet. My name is Ralph and I'm damn well impressed with your latest creation :bow: 

I must say it took me until the very, very closeup video to understand the full working principle, got it now 


I also sneaked a peak at another video on your photobucket page.... WOW!!!!!  (the principle I have the effect is the wow  )



I haven't been round much lately so it is nice to see a very inovative barstock engine in the engineering. I'm off to look for more now ;D



Thank you for showing it in such great detail, I will look out for more of your work.


Ralph.


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## kustomkb (Dec 12, 2008)

Very nice engine!

The diagonal o-ring would be a nice set-up with the dividing head geared to the lead screw.
I guess you would cut the helix through 180 degrees, add an idler gear to reverse the gear train(without losing position) then feed back the other way.

just thinking aloud, 

Kevin.


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## Captain Jerry (Dec 12, 2008)

Tinkering with the engine has paid off. Oiled paper head gaskets made a huge improvement stoping most of the air leak. A packing gland at the crank end of the shaft took care of most of the rest. I am not going to attempt the diagonal seal now, even though I worked out a method to do it without automated equipment. It really doesn't seem necessary. The engine is now running much better. Self starting at all points, regular low RPM at low pressure. I don't have a tach but I can count the revs by eye so I'm estimating less than 100 RPM and all WITHOUT THE FLYWHEEL!

The problem was mechanical. The ball joints where the piston rod connects to the spider must articulate at least 30 degrees. On one cylinder, the one that was stopping at low pressure, I found that at the TDC position the joint was stiff. I disassembled the retainer and added a little more range of motion with a needle file. That's all it took. 

I could tinker some more but not for a while. Piston rings would probably be next, but for now, I'm just gonna clean it up and put it on the shelf. I have been hit with the inspiration for a radical new mechanism that needs to be built. It is slightly more complex than the ball pivot used in this engine. I have never seen one, but I can picture it so I'll try to build it.

Jerry


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 3, 2009)

Here is a drawing of the Weeble general geometry. It was produced using an almost free CAD program called CADstd-pro from http://www.apperson.org/cadstd/. I have used this program to import .dfx files from Autocad but have never exported a file to others for import. If you can't read it, you can download the slightly crippled free version or I can post a .pdf file. 

If anyone wants more details, I will try to clean up some of the component drawings and put together some build notes.

If the drawings don't come up to standards, I'm not surprised. My only training was with pencils and T-square about fifty years ago in college. Things may have changed a little since then.

Jerry 

View attachment Weeble Assembled e.cad


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## Metal Mickey (Jan 3, 2009)

Brings a whole new meaning to weird but wonderful!


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## artrans (Jan 3, 2009)

nice work about that cad program did you use the pro how long did it take you to be able to draw the weeble. Trying to learn some kind of cad but it makes my head hurt. Thank you for your time


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 3, 2009)

artrans  said:
			
		

> nice work about that cad program did you use the pro how long did it take you to be able to draw the&#160; weeble. Trying to learn some kind of cad but it makes my head hurt. Thank you for your time



When I started messing with engines, I did pencil drawings on graph paper.&#160; I thought 3D CAD sounded like fun but gave up on that idea when I realized the learning was keeping from doing anything real.&#160; I tried CADstd free version and almost immediately got usable output.&#160; It has been a while since I started using it but I don't remember it being difficult.&#160; I think the Pro version is worth the investment.

I made the Weeble drawing while building so the time is hard to establish. But it doesn't slow me down. For me, it is way faster than pencil sketchs. I now use it as a thinking tool.



Regards
Jerry


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 4, 2009)

Update:

The CAD drawing posted above is native CADstd format. Here is the .dxf file. Feedback please if you have problems reading this with other CAD programs.

Jerry


View attachment Weeble Assembled e.dxf


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## GailInNM (Jan 4, 2009)

DXF opened fine in ACAD 2000.
Gail in NM,USA


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## Maryak (Jan 4, 2009)

CJ,

No problems with the DXF - Turbocad 14.

Best Regards
Bob


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## artrans (Jan 5, 2009)

jerry i am sorry and do not want to be a pain in the a*** but I will be ;D how did you get the bolts on the plan


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## artrans (Jan 5, 2009)

sorry hit the wrong key i bought the cadsd pro but do not see the bolts like you show on your plans how do you get them thank you 
sorry but I have been trying hard to be able to draw a plan like you did and I am hitting a wall. thank you art


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 5, 2009)

artrans  said:
			
		

> i bought the cadsd pro but do not see the bolts like you show on your plans how do you get them thank you
> sorry but I have been trying hard to be able to draw a plan like you did and I am hitting a wall. thank you art



Art

No pain at all. CADstd does not have a bolt or screw file to select from. In my plans, I draw them individually. First a rectangle for screw body, then a semicircle for the head unless I intend to use cap screws, in which case its another rectangle. Threads are indicated by a long line and a short line. You do not need to draw long short for the full thread length. Just the first two at the end of the screw. Then use the "Rectangular Array" function. Number of rows = 1, number of columns = how many threads you want. Select the first two thread lines. Start Point- select long line. Second point- select a point where you want the second thread pair to appear.
To be sure that the threads fall where you intend, set "Snap To=Angle". If the drawing is going to have a number of same size screws, draw one in a corner of the page and then copy it to the appropriate position as needed. Use the rotate function to get it vertical, horizontal, or any angle you want. Use Mirror to change left-right, or up-down. If you are going to do a lot of drawings using screws, you can create your own catalog of bolts and screws in a separate file and use "include file" to bring it into your current drawing.

The most helpful hint that I can offer you is to avoid using freehand placement of lines. Get use to using the snap functions. 

Hang in there. It should get easier.

Jerry


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## artrans (Jan 7, 2009)

hello Jerry I few more questions I one of those guys That you have to talk real slow to get it.
I am hands on if you were here showing me I would get like now ya right :big: but this way will be my more pain for you sorry. I assume you blew up to larger for ease of viewing when drawing ? And the snap to grit I again assume you have to type in the measurement in x and y or am I missing something as usual. thanks cap


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 7, 2009)

Art

I almost never type in coordinates or dimensions, except when drawing a circle, I do type the radius. Most of my drawings seem to start with a circle anyway. 

1. I usually set grid dimension to 1/32 x 1/32 for rough drawings and use fractional inches for dimensions.

2. If you have Snap = Grid, you will not be able to locate a point with the cursor that is not on the grid, so you sometimes have to set Snap=None or Snap=Angle.

3. Locating a starting or ending point accurately is helped by the 8 small locator aids on the toolbar. You can start a line at the intersection of two lines, tangent to two circles,the center of an existing circle, The end of an existing line or the midpoint of an existing line. You can also end a line at any of the references and in addition, you can end a line perpendicular to an existing line or tangent to an existing circle.

4. You can also use these locator aids to set the the start/end points of a dimension takeoff.

Here is an example. The white lines were placed randomly. The red lines were placed using the aids.

Jerry 

View attachment Examples.cad


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## artrans (Jan 9, 2009)

hi cap this is the result so far thanks to you I no its not great but it is a start and thanks again for the help still a long road but a least I am moving in the right direction in about 9 years I may be as good as brian. ;D


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## artrans (Jan 9, 2009)

sorry i am a dumb a** did not attach the file sorry  

View attachment my_gov[1].pdf


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey Art

Now you're makin' some lines! What do you think?

I don't want to sound like a teacher or an expert because I'm far from being either but here's a little tip. If you are drawing something like this where the left side and the right side are the same, start with a vertical center line and just draw everything on one side. When you have got it like you want it on one side, use the Mirror X, function to flop a copy over to the other side of the drawing. Half the work and everything is symetrical.


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## artrans (Jan 9, 2009)

thank you for that very good tip which I can use I like it I no I should not be that happy about its not like it nuclear but it is a step in the right direction thank you again for helping out


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## rleete (Jan 9, 2009)

Art, just a pic to show what's possible with a commercial (SolidWorks 2009) CAD program. I rendered this when I loaded the new software, just to see how it worked. Took about 2 minutes for the computer to make it look all shiny. I drew this about 3-4 years ago, when I first got my lathe and was looking for something to make.







There's also a function to animate it (you've seen Brian post it before), which is useful for finding parts that will bind or interfere.


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## artrans (Jan 9, 2009)

very nice I will now go and delete my poor little govener. Ifyou or brian next to me and where willing to teach I would dive into solid works in a heart beat but to try and go it alone
for the cost of the software I would have to be a moran so where do I sign. No realy I would give hugh amounts of something to learn cad again from someone like your self or brian by my side. But until that day comes I will have to stick to my little lines.


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## rleete (Jan 9, 2009)

Not meant to discourage you. Remember, I do this for a living, I'd better be good at it! I went to college to learn it, not just trying to figure it out on my own. Plus, I use one of the most advanced packages there are, with all the bells & whistles, on a top end computer. Most important, I didn't have to pay for it; the company buys everything.

Rather, think of it as a goal to work towards. Like seeing a perfect engine when you are just starting out. Don't let it keep you from your own project, but as something to strive for.


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## Captain Jerry (Jan 31, 2009)

Hi Y'all

This thread got a little off track but I'm going to try to bring it back to center.

Im going to spend some time and effort fine tuning the Weeble before completing the plans for posting. This is the first build of an original design and deserves to be tested more thoroughly before presenting it to others to build. I want to be a little more confident in a few of the details. A number of ideas occurred to me as I was building it that may have improved the design that I did not go back and incorporate. Mostly these are procedural ideas and a few are refinements and simplification. This is after all a very simple design and that is how it should be kept.

Mostly , I want to fine tune the performance. I hope to be able to include some specific performance data from the tests. From input on this forum I now know how to build and use a Prony Brake to test output power and torque.

More to follow soon.

Jerry


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## Captain Jerry (Feb 1, 2009)

Fix number 1.

Air pressure leaks at the shaft/bushing ends needs to be sealed. This seams to be common to rotary valves. By slipping an o-ring over the shaft and compressing it with the crank web at one end and the flywheel at the other end stopped the pressure loss but the increased friction stopped the shaft from turning. Easing up the pressure between the crank and the flywheel reduced the friction but increased the air loss.

Delrin washers to the rescue. The first washer has a 1/4 ID x 1/32thick. This is followed by two washers with a 3/8ID and a final washer with 1/4ID.  Trapped in the space between the shaft and the two center washers is an o-ring with 1/4ID by 1/16thick. All well oiled. Slight pressure on the flywheel before locking the grub screw compressed the o-ring enough to seal the air loss with very low friction.

This drawing is not to scale but illustrates the relative positions of the o-rings (black), the washers (blue), the shaft and bushing (gold), and the air pressure (red, exaggerated).

With shafts and bearings of larger diameter it might be possible to fit the o-ring on a groove in the shaft that would fit within the bushing. If I could find an o-ring with a thickness of about 1/64, I would try that.
&#65532;


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## Captain Jerry (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi Y'all

Installing the thrust bearing / seals made a big improvement. Preventing air pressure loss puts it to work turning the engine. 

Here is video of the engine running slow with no flywheel. There is almost no inertia in the rotating mass. The four cylinders provide overlapping power strokes 90 degrees apart, like you get with a two cylinder double acting engine with offset crank. Valve timing turns out to be very important. Just a few degrees earlier or later changes the performance substantially.


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BOstqRnnJa8&hl=en&fs=1></object>

It is fairly easy to change the timing on this engine but the engine must be stopped. I wonder if there is any way that this could be done on the fly? Any suggestions?

 Im going to try some different flywheels to get a better understanding of the effect of weight and diameter.

Jerry


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## rake60 (Feb 2, 2009)

Now THAT is impressive Jerry.
I can't think of any other engine that I've seen run without
a flywheel, propeller or some other type of mass for inertia.

Great project!
I'm looking forward to more on it.

Rick


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## PhillyVa (Feb 2, 2009)

Hey... :bow: excellent :bow: work there.

Regards

Philly


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## brian99s (Feb 2, 2009)

Very nice Jerry. Impresssive design and execution. :bow:


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## Captain Jerry (Feb 4, 2009)

Today's project was to test the effect of different flywheels on the Weeble. I have been able to get the engine to run at low speed without a flywheel. All it takes is very low friction, low air pressure and careful valve timing. 
I am controlling the speed with a small regulator that is about 18" from the engine through 1/8"ID plastic tubing. I believe that it is important to keep the distance between the regulator and the engine as short as possible and rigid tubing would also be better.

I have read several post elsewhere on the forum that suggest restricting the exhaust as a means of control but since this engine exhausts through the drive shaft, I can not try that.

I intend to test the engine using several different flywheels and loads at different air pressure settings. Here is the setup.














The engine is mounted with the shaft vertical. A fixed load is provided by a two pound (approx) weight. The weight is attached to the left end of the strap and hung over a pulley. The right end of the strap is fixed. This provides a constant load for all tests. If the engine will not start under load the weight is lifted to allow the engine to come up to speed. The weight is then lowered and the air pressure reduced until it stalls. To be more precise, I should have a tachometer and a digital scale but by keeping the load equal throughout all test, I can at least get comparative information.

Test #1 with no flywheel required at least 80PSI to run. A slight increase in load or reduction in pressure would result in instant stall.








Test #2 with a lightweight aluminum flywheel would not self start but would run reliably under load from 80PSI down to about 60PSI. The lowest operating speed estimated 200-300 RPM. Difficult or impossible to anticipate stall.








Test #3 with the original cast iron flywheel. Much like #2 but slightly easier to anticipate stall and recover by increasing pressure. A sensitive governor may be able to prevent stalling but would take carefull adjustment.








Test #4 with a cobbled up flybar. This flybar is heavier and carries the weight at a greater radius from center. With this flybar, the engine could be made to start under load if carefully positioned before opening the air flow. It would start at about 30PSI and could be throttled down to about 20PSI. It was very easy to anticipate stalling and by carefull control of the regulator could be made to run at very low speed under load.







It also provides a nice chuff-chuff-chuff from the exhaust when accelerating. I was able to notice a missing 4th chuff in the cycle which I think means a lazy cylinder, probably poor fit of the piston. Here is the video:






From these test I conclude:

1. Matching flywheel to LOAD is important. Flywheel did not seem all that important until I applied a reasonable load.

2. Heavier is better, and weight distribution is important. I'm going to search the forum for all the posts on flywheel design.

3. Fiddling around is as much fun as making chips.

Best to all.
Jerry


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## gilessim (Feb 4, 2009)

Nice going Jerry! great engine, for a minute there ,I thought your load test was to see how far you could fling a pair of vice grips (with big chunk of brass in them!), with the generated torque!

Giles


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## 10K Pete (Feb 5, 2009)

Jerry, that's just about the nifty-est darn little engine I ever did see!
Congratulations!

Pete


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